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Moderated Forums => Free-For-All => Non-Religious Topics => Topic started by: Virtual Paradise on March 25, 2013, 08:22:46 PM

Title: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Virtual Paradise on March 25, 2013, 08:22:46 PM
What caused Hitler's hate towards the Jews than he wondered around to kill 5+ millions of them ?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: biro on March 25, 2013, 08:24:37 PM
Evil.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: vamrat on March 25, 2013, 09:49:53 PM
I heard he got jewed out of an art degree.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Ansgar on March 25, 2013, 09:54:57 PM
What caused Hitler's hate towards the Jews than he wondered around to kill 5+ millions of them ?

Jews have, historically, been used as scapegoats for various problems: the black death, murders, diseases etc...

At this point in history, Germany had been forced to its knees by the financial crisis and the consequenses of the Treaty of Versailles. Often, the jews were among the people who managed to get through the crisis better than others. Combined with the age-old image of jews as greedy, evil, big-nosed liars, and you have a pretty good enemy.

Of course, the situation was often more complicated than than just the above, but this is the reasons, people most often give.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: NightOwl on March 25, 2013, 10:19:04 PM
Anti-Semitism was not exclusive to Hitler by any means, nor was the idea that Jews had to be exterminated; in fact, it was especially prevalent among Orthodox countries. In fact, Hitler was heavily influenced by the ideas of a Russian monarchist and post-Revolution emigre named Fyodr Vinberg, who believed that the Orthodox and Catholics should join forces to destroy the Jews of Europe. The Russian White Army during the Civil War was likewise rabidly anti-Semitic- one British journalist accompanying Denikin's army, John Hodgson, wrote in a report to the British government that he feared that if the Whites managed to defeat the Bolsheviks, there would be mass pogroms and Jewish exterminations across Russia. In fact, when he tried to refute the anti-Semitism of his White officer friends, they accused Hodgson himself of being Jewish and involved in a Jewish-Masonic conspiracy!

As mentioned by Ansgar, there are many reasons for anti-Semitism, including that Jews held unusually high socioeconomic positions in comparison to the average non-Jewish European. This dates back to the Middle Ages, when Christians were forbidden from participating in lending or "usury," and Jews were left with few career alternatives outside of banking. In the Russian Revolution, many leading Bolsheviks (such as Trotsky) were at least culturally Jewish, helping to explain the anti-Semitism of the White forces.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Orthodox11 on March 25, 2013, 10:25:31 PM
Here's one theory:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzjqtR1ZP6s

On a more serious note, I think the cause is the nature of the Jewish people. They're a distinct religious and national group who live within the wider society, but by definition can never fully become part of it (at least not in the context of a nation state). When you add to that mix financial and political influence, you have a perfect scapegoat.

The Armenian people are in many ways quite similar. I forget the source, but when discussing the "Jewish problem", one of the options Hitler proposed was to "Armenianize" them, a reference to the genocide committed by the Ottomans in 1915. Of course, with the Jews you have the added bonus of deicide charges and the traditional anti-Judaism of Christianity has frequently been misappropriated by those wishing to use it an anti-Semitic propaganda tool.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: NightOwl on March 25, 2013, 10:49:34 PM
On a more serious note, I think the cause is the nature of the Jewish people. They're a distinct religious and national group who live within the wider society, but by definition can never fully become part of it (at least not in the context of a nation state). When you add to that mix financial and political influence, you have a perfect scapegoat.

The Armenian people are in many ways quite similar. I forget the source, but when discussing the "Jewish problem", one of the options Hitler proposed was to "Armenianize" them, a reference to the genocide committed by the Ottomans in 1915.

But of course, there were many religious/cultural groups living in relative social isolation in 19th and 20th century Europe. Jews held special distinction among these groups due to their relatively high levels of education and economic success in comparison to the societal norm. Some academics would also claim anti-Semitism was flamed by the shallow and ignorant perception of Jews holding sole responsibility for the crucifixion of Christ; I would say this maybe had greater influence in the pre-modern era but became negligible in the modern age of nationalism.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Velsigne on March 26, 2013, 12:47:43 AM
Here's one theory:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzjqtR1ZP6s

On a more serious note, I think the cause is the nature of the Jewish people. They're a distinct religious and national group who live within the wider society, but by definition can never fully become part of it (at least not in the context of a nation state). When you add to that mix financial and political influence, you have a perfect scapegoat.

The Armenian people are in many ways quite similar. I forget the source, but when discussing the "Jewish problem", one of the options Hitler proposed was to "Armenianize" them, a reference to the genocide committed by the Ottomans in 1915. Of course, with the Jews you have the added bonus of deicide charges and the traditional anti-Judaism of Christianity has frequently been misappropriated by those wishing to use it an anti-Semitic propaganda tool.

Yes, the Young Turks sparked off a century of genocides, and Hitler did comment that the Armenians were annihilated and nobody even paid any attention, so why would anyone care about Jews.  Some Americans did protest on behalf of Armenians though; it was the first time Americans became internationally involved in a human rights campaign. 

Many German Jews were fully integrated into society.  I've heard rebbis talk about how it was a punishment for assimilating.   I think they are the only ones who can say that without causing a huge uproar.  When it first started, it was literally like the neighbor boys taking you to the outskirts of town and gunning your entire family and other neighbors down.  Then other people would move into their homes.  Just like that.   It was incomprehensible.


Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Velsigne on March 26, 2013, 12:48:00 AM
Hitler also hated Slavs and probably would have hated Muslims too after he finished using them.  The shorter list would be, "Who did Hitler not hate?"  He was obviously insane, and in different times he likely wouldn't have been as politically successful. 

One well written and insightful book about Germany during that period is Defying Hitler by Sebastian Haffner. 
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Cyrillic on March 26, 2013, 04:50:06 AM
What caused Hitler's hate towards the Jews than he wondered around to kill 5+ millions of them ?

Hitler wasn't a very nice guy.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: J Michael on March 26, 2013, 09:04:41 AM
What caused Hitler's hate towards the Jews than he wondered around to kill 5+ millions of them ?

Hitler wasn't a very nice guy.

I'd like to nominate the above for understatement of the month year decade.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: JamesR on March 26, 2013, 05:20:35 PM
He also hated homosexuals, Slavs, Roman Catholics and Blacks. And he most likely would have hated Muslims too once he was done using them in the Middle East, and probably Latin Americans if there were any in Europe. Ultimately, I think his hatred was more inspired by radical patriotism, since Europe has always had a fetish for nationalism. I think the racism was probably the product of his patriotism to demonize the enemy.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: NightOwl on March 26, 2013, 05:26:28 PM
He also hated homosexuals, Slavs, Roman Catholics and Blacks. And he most likely would have hated Muslims too once he was done using them in the Middle East, and probably Latin Americans if there were any in Europe. Ultimately, I think his hatred was more inspired by radical patriotism, since Europe has always had a fetish for nationalism. I think the racism was probably the product of his patriotism to demonize the enemy.

Yes but only anti-Semitism was fundamental to the rhetoric and platform of the Nazi Party. Hitler actively collaborated with both Catholics and "Slavs" (see the Nazi-Soviet Pact, or Russian Liberation Army), especially in the earlier years of his dictatorship.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: JamesR on March 26, 2013, 05:30:22 PM
He also hated homosexuals, Slavs, Roman Catholics and Blacks. And he most likely would have hated Muslims too once he was done using them in the Middle East, and probably Latin Americans if there were any in Europe. Ultimately, I think his hatred was more inspired by radical patriotism, since Europe has always had a fetish for nationalism. I think the racism was probably the product of his patriotism to demonize the enemy.

Yes but only anti-Semitism was fundamental to the rhetoric and platform of the Nazi Party. Hitler actively collaborated with both Catholics and "Slavs" (see the Nazi-Soviet Pact, or Russian Liberation Army), especially in the earlier years of his dictatorship.

Adolf Hitler was a genius manipulator and lied for propoganda purposes. He hated Christianity as well, but used it to deceive people. My thoughts are that Hitler merely exploited Europe's already-existing anti-Semitic attitude for political purposes, and collaborated with Catholics and Slavs for political purposes. Same reason why he spoke about God and Christ in his speeches, even though he himself was an atheist and saw Christianity as the bastardization of Judaism needing to be eradicated.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: NightOwl on March 26, 2013, 05:43:19 PM
He also hated homosexuals, Slavs, Roman Catholics and Blacks. And he most likely would have hated Muslims too once he was done using them in the Middle East, and probably Latin Americans if there were any in Europe. Ultimately, I think his hatred was more inspired by radical patriotism, since Europe has always had a fetish for nationalism. I think the racism was probably the product of his patriotism to demonize the enemy.

Yes but only anti-Semitism was fundamental to the rhetoric and platform of the Nazi Party. Hitler actively collaborated with both Catholics and "Slavs" (see the Nazi-Soviet Pact, or Russian Liberation Army), especially in the earlier years of his dictatorship.

Adolf Hitler was a genius manipulator and lied for propoganda purposes. He hated Christianity as well, but used it to deceive people. My thoughts are that Hitler merely exploited Europe's already-existing anti-Semitic attitude for political purposes, and collaborated with Catholics and Slavs for political purposes. Same reason why he spoke about God and Christ in his speeches, even though he himself was an atheist and saw Christianity as the bastardization of Judaism needing to be eradicated.

Hitler not only spoke about God and Christ, he tried to recreate himself as the new Messiah, often emphasizing his own "spiritual struggle" and "sacrifices" in the earlier years of his life and rise to power. Nazism, Fascism, and other totalitarian ideologies were primarily concerned with the creation of a spiritual nationalism that would ultimately replace Christianity by gradually transforming and nationalizing its symbols. Mussolini did the same thing, and he was not nearly so uncultured or brutish as Hitler. To say that "Hitler merely exploited Europe's already-existing anti-Semitic attitude for political purposes" is not incorrect but simplistic; as I posted earlier, Hitler was also heavily influenced by the ideas of the Russian monarchist emigre Fyodor Vinberg and others like him, who believed that Jews and Bolsheviks were united in a conspiracy to control the world economy and political structures. See the originally Russian 1903 publication The Protocols of the Elders of Zion for more insight into European anti-Semitism.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 03, 2013, 05:34:00 PM
I'm sure hate went both ways....... ;)

(http://www.redicecreations.com/ul_img/5951judeawar.jpg)
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: biro on April 03, 2013, 08:00:03 PM
There was a country called Judea in the early 1930s?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Sinful Hypocrite on April 03, 2013, 09:12:58 PM
He certainly did not have much opposition from most other countries who found nothing wrong with his views about Jews, There are many older people who I have heard speaking about the attitudes on that issue in the U.S . at that time and they were understanding and sympathetic to Hitler's stance.

 Most of the world was willing to go along with mistreatment and dislocations of their Jews, even the League of Nations had given carte blanche to Europe , each country was free to deal with minorities as it deemed necessary, without much concern for civil rights .

Only after the death camps were discovered did the world react with  disgust and horror, But the Nazis did not start out to Kill them all, That was called the Final Solution and was not started until 1942 .
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: WPM on April 03, 2013, 10:34:24 PM
Ethnic cleansing for a twisted philosophy of Aryanism. (You have to read Mein Kampf for the details) ...
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Tallitot on April 04, 2013, 12:24:43 AM
At least one poster here thinks Hitler was a good guy and that his genocide of the Jews was a good thing.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Virtual Paradise on April 04, 2013, 11:37:49 AM
Quote
At the end of the First World War, Germany was essentially tricked [see Paul Johnson A History of the Modern World (1983) p24 and H Nicholson Peacemaking 1919 (1933) pp13-16] into paying massive reparations to France and other economic competitors and former belligerent countries in terms of the so-called Treaty of Versailles, thanks to the liberal American President Woodrow Wilson. Germany was declared to be solely responsible for the war, in spite of the fact that 'Germany did not plot a European war, did not want one, and made genuine efforts, though too belated, to avert one.' (Professor Sydney B Fay The Origins of the World War (vol. 2 p 552)).
 
As a result of these massive enforced financial reparations, by 1923 the situation in Germany became desperate and inflation on an astronomical scale became the only way out for the government. Printing presses were engaged to print money around the clock. In 1921 the exchange rate was 75 marks to the dollar. By 1924 this had become about 5 trillion marks to the dollar. This virtually destroyed the German middle class (Koestler The God that Failed p 28), reducing any bank savings to a virtual zero.
 
According to Sir Arthur Bryant the British historian (Unfinished Victory (1940 pp. 136-144):
 
'It was the Jews with their international affiliations and their hereditary flair for finance who were best able to seize such opportunities.. They did so with such effect that, even in November 1938, after five years of anti-Semitic legislation and persecution, they still owned, according to the Times correspondent in Berlin, something like a third of the real property in the Reich. Most of it came into their hands during the inflation.. But to those who had lost their all, this bewildering transfer seemed a monstrous injustice. After prolonged sufferings they had now been deprived of their last possessions. They saw them pass into the hands of strangers, many of whom had not shared their sacrifices and who cared little or nothing for their national standards and traditions.. The Jews obtained a wonderful ascendancy in politics, business and the learned professions (in spite of constituting) less than one percent of the population.. The banks, including the Reichsbank and the big private banks, were practically controlled by them. So were the publishing trade, the cinema, the theatres and a large part of the press - all the normal means, in fact, by which public opinion in a civilized country is formed.. The largest newspaper combine in the country with a daily circulation of four millions was a Jewish monopoly.. Every year it became harder and harder for a gentile to gain or keep a foothold in any privileged occupation.. At this time it was not the 'Aryans' who exercised racial discrimination. It was a discrimination that operated without violence. It was exercised by a minority against a majority. There was no persecution, only elimination.. It was the contrast between the wealth enjoyed - and lavishly displayed - by aliens of cosmopolitan tastes, and the poverty and misery of native Germans, that has made anti-Semitism so dangerous and ugly a force in the new Europe. Beggars on horseback are seldom popular, least of all with those whom they have just thrown out of the saddle.'
http://rense.com/general29/why.htm 



Early Adolf's Hitler first letter after the treaty of Versailles :

Quote
(September 16, 1919)
Dear Herr Gemlich,

If the threat with which Jewry faces our people has given rise to undeniable hostility on the part of a large section of our people, the cause of this hostility must be sought in the clear recognition that Jewry as such is deliberately or unwittingly having a pernicious effect on our nation, but mostly in personal intercourse, in the poor impression the Jew makes as an individual. As a result, antisemitism far too readily assumes a purely emotional character. But this is not the correct response. Antisemitism as a political movement may not and cannot be molded by emotional factors but only by recognition of the facts. Now the facts are these:

To begin with, the Jews are unquestionably a race, not a religious community. The Jew himself never describes himself as a Jewish German, a Jewish Pole or a Jewish American, but always as a German, Polish or American Jew. Jews have never adopted more than the language of the foreign nations in whose midst they live. A German who is forced to make use of the French language in France, Italian in Italy, Chinese in China does not thereby become a Frenchman, Italian, or Chinaman, nor can we call a Jew who happens to live amongst us and who is therefore forced to use the German language, a German. Neither does the Mosaic faith, however great its importance for the preservation of that race, be the sole criterion for deciding who is a Jew and who is not. There is hardly a race in the world whose members all belong to a single religion.

Through inbreeding for thousands of years, often in very small circles, the Jew has been able to preserve his race and his racial characteristics much more successfully than most of the numerous people among whom he has lived. As a result there lives amongst us a non-German, alien race, unwilling and indeed unable to shed its racial characteristics, its particular feelings, thoughts and ambitions and nevertheless enjoying the same political rights as we ourselves do. And since even the Jew's feelings are limited to the purely material realm, his thoughts and ambitions are bound to be so even more strongly. Their dance around the golden calf becomes a ruthless struggle for all the possessions that we feel deep down are not the highest and not the only ones worth striving for on this earth.

The value of an individual is no longer determined by his character or by the significance of his achievements for the community, but solely by the size of his fortune, his wealth.

The greatness of a nation is no longer measured by the sum of its moral and spiritual resources, but only by the wealth of its material possessions.

All this results in that mental attitude and that quest for money and the power to protect it which allow the Jew to become so unscrupulous in his choice of means, so merciless in their use of his own ends. In autocratic states he cringes before the 'majesty' of the princes and misuses their favors to become a leech on their people.

In democracies he vies for the favor of the masses, cringes before 'the majesty of the people', but only recognizes the majesty of money.

He saps the prince's character with Byzantine flattery; national pride and the strength of the nation with ridicule and shameless seduction to vice. His method of battle is that public opinion which is never expressed in the press but which is nonetheless manages and falsified by it. His power is the power of the money, which multiplies in his hands effortlessly and endlessly through interest, and with which he imposes a yoke upon the nation that is the more pernicious in that its glitter disguises its ultimately tragic consequences. Everything that makes the people strive for higher goals, be it religion, socialism, or democracy, is to the Jew merely a means to an end, the way to satisfy his greed and thirst for power.

The results of his works is racial tuberculosis of the nation.

And this has the following consequences: purely emotional antisemitism finds its final expression in the form of pogroms. Rational antisemitism, by contrast, must lead to a systematic and legal struggle against, and eradication of, the privileges the Jews enjoy over the other foreigners living among us (Alien Laws). Its final objective, however, must be the total removal of all Jews from our midst. Both objectives can only be achieved by a government of national strength and not one of national impotence.

The German Republic owes its birth not the united national will of our people, but to the underhand exploitation of a series of circumstances that, taken together, express themselves in a deep, universal dissatisfaction. These circumstances, however, arose independently of the political structure and are at work even today. Indeed, more so than ever before. Hence, a large part of our people recognizes that changing the structure of the state cannot in itself improve our position, but that this can only be achieved by the rebirth of the nation's moral and spiritual forces.

And this rebirth cannot be prepared by the leadership of an irresponsibly majority influence by party dogmas or by the internationalist catch-phrases and slogans of an irresponsible press, but only by determined acts on the part of nationally minded leadership with an inner sense of responsibility.

This very fact serves to deprive the Republic of the inner support of the spiritual forces any nation needs very badly. Hence the present leaders of the nation are forced to seek support from those who alone have benefited and continue to benefit from changing the form of the German state, and who for that very reason become the driving force of the Revolution -- the Jews. Disregarding the Jewish threat, which is undoubtedly recognized even by today's leaders (as various statement from prominent personalities reveal), these men are forced to accept Jewish favors to their private advantage and to repay these favors. And the repayment does not merely involve satisfying every possible Jewish demand, but above all preventing the struggle of the betrayed people against its defrauders, by sabotaging the antisemitic movement.

Yours truly,
Adolf Hitler

"The letter was written by Hitler in 1919, six years before the publication of “Mein Kampf” (1925), Hitler's autobiography and manifesto. It details what he calls the “Jewish threat,” and argues for Germans to hinder Jews' ability to gain power and influence." - http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/10/museum-of-tolerance-will-display-hitler-letter-for-first-time.html

Quote
Hitler made the dramatic intervention to protect Ernst Hess, his old company commander from the Flanders trenches of the First World War, who had risen to be a judge in post-war Germany.
In a letter from August 27, 1941 to the Dusseldorf Gestapo, Heinrich Himmler, one of the architects of the Final Solution, instructed the secret police to grant Hess "the relief and the protection as per the Fuhrer's wishes".http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-two/9379575/Adolf-Hitler-protected-his-Jewish-former-commanding-officer.html

Also Eduard Bloch, the Jewish doctor of Hitler's familly received help from Hitler.

Here is what Eduard Bloch says about Hitler :
" Adolf wore a dark suit and a loosely knotted cravat. Then, as now, a shock of hair tumbled over his forehead. His eyes were on the floor while his sisters were talking. Then came his turn. He stepped forward and took my hand. Looking into my eyes, he said: "I shall be grateful to you forever." That was all. Then he bowed. I wonder if today he recalls this scene. I am quite sure that he does, for in a sparing sense Adolf Hitler has kept to his promise of gratitude. Favors were. granted me which I feel sure were accorded no other Jew in all Germany or Austria."


Bloch went on to tell the OSS that

in 1937, a number of local Nazis attended the party conference at Nuremberg. After the conference Hitler invited several of these people to come with him to his mountain villa at Berchtesgaden. The Führer asked for news of Linz. How was the town ? Were people there supporting him? He asked for news of me. Was I still alive, still practicing? Then he made a statement irritating to local Nazis. "Dr. Bloch," said Hitler, "is an Edeljude - a noble Jew. If all Jews were like him, there would be no Jewish question."


http://open.salon.com/blog/lost_in_berlin/2009/08/27/hitlers_favorite_jew_the_strange_case_of_dr_eduard_bloch
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 04, 2013, 04:29:07 PM
There was a country called Judea in the early 1930s?
Jews have always considered themselves a "nation" regardless of what country they're dwelling in  at that time, especially before the state of Israel.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 04, 2013, 04:32:45 PM
At least one poster here thinks Hitler was a good guy and that his genocide of the Jews was a good thing.
What poster was that?

And for all things holy, just who declared that the genocide of anyone is a good thing?

Besides, Jesus said only God is "good".

Tell me, do you believe that Jesus was a "good" guy?

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: JamesR on April 04, 2013, 04:38:46 PM
Ethnic cleansing for a twisted philosophy of Aryanism. (You have to read Mein Kampf for the details) ...

Let's see how long until some Cradle Christopher European tries to justify it as being "understandable"  ;)
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: J Michael on April 04, 2013, 04:43:03 PM
Ethnic cleansing for a twisted philosophy of Aryanism. (You have to read Mein Kampf for the details) ...

Let's see how long until some Cradle Christopher European tries to justify it as being "understandable"  ;)

A what??
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Tallitot on April 04, 2013, 05:11:32 PM
At least one poster here thinks Hitler was a good guy and that his genocide of the Jews was a good thing.
What poster was that?

And for all things holy, just who declared that the genocide of anyone is a good thing?

Besides, Jesus said only God is "good".

Tell me, do you believe that Jesus was a "good" guy?



by "here" I meant OC.net, not this particular thread.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: mike on April 04, 2013, 05:15:57 PM
There was a country called Judea in the early 1930s?
Jews have always considered themselves a "nation" regardless of what country they're dwelling in  at that time, especially before the state of Israel.

And how is this related to biro's question?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: JamesR on April 04, 2013, 05:17:35 PM
There was a country called Judea in the early 1930s?
Jews have always considered themselves a "nation" regardless of what country they're dwelling in  at that time, especially before the state of Israel.

And how is this related to biro's question?

He's trying to say that the Jews are equally responsible for the hatred because apparently protesting injustice makes you as bad as the oppressor or some other weirdo White Man's Burden theory.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 04, 2013, 05:29:18 PM
There was a country called Judea in the early 1930s?
Jews have always considered themselves a "nation" regardless of what country they're dwelling in  at that time, especially before the state of Israel.

And how is this related to biro's question?
How is not?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 04, 2013, 05:30:55 PM
There was a country called Judea in the early 1930s?
Jews have always considered themselves a "nation" regardless of what country they're dwelling in  at that time, especially before the state of Israel.

And how is this related to biro's question?

He's trying to say that the Jews are equally responsible for the hatred because apparently protesting injustice makes you as bad as the oppressor or some other weirdo White Man's Burden theory.
I just said there's plenty of room  of blame to go around on both sides.

You're the one hung up on race buddy.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: mike on April 04, 2013, 05:43:28 PM
There was a country called Judea in the early 1930s?
Jews have always considered themselves a "nation" regardless of what country they're dwelling in  at that time, especially before the state of Israel.

And how is this related to biro's question?
How is not?

She is asking whether Jews had some coutry in 1930s (or, what is that "Judea" thing mentioned in that article you shared). You answer that Jews considered themselves to be a nationality.

Apples to oranges.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Ansgar on April 04, 2013, 05:51:04 PM
There was a country called Judea in the early 1930s?
Jews have always considered themselves a "nation" regardless of what country they're dwelling in  at that time, especially before the state of Israel.

And how is this related to biro's question?
How is not?

She is asking whether Jews had some coutry in 1930s (or, what is that "Judea" thing mentioned in that article you shared). You answer that Jews considered themselves to be a nationality.

Apples to oranges.

Actually, as I understood it( and I may be completely wrong) he seemed to refer to the fact that the term "nation" has been used to describe the jewish people during history. Thus, the term "Judea" might be a reference to jews all over the world.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 04, 2013, 07:29:40 PM
There was a country called Judea in the early 1930s?
Jews have always considered themselves a "nation" regardless of what country they're dwelling in  at that time, especially before the state of Israel.

And how is this related to biro's question?
How is not?

She is asking whether Jews had some coutry in 1930s (or, what is that "Judea" thing mentioned in that article you shared). You answer that Jews considered themselves to be a nationality.

Apples to oranges.
Where do you think "nationalities" come from?

Nations...hello?

Jews were forever searching for a homeland ever since the diaspora but make no mistake, they were still a nation, one people with a common bond and goal. And for Jews, a nation is a much more meaning ful and deeper and spiritual significance than just a "country".

In a way, you're right, comparing Judea to just a "country" is comparing apples to oranges.

What the Jews have go way beyond physical borders.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: JamesR on April 04, 2013, 07:51:50 PM
...there's plenty of room  of blame to go around on both sides.

That's like telling a rape victim that there is "plenty of room" for the blame to on "both sides."
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: mike on April 04, 2013, 08:19:07 PM
Where do you think "nationalities" come from?

Nations...hello?

Jews were forever searching for a homeland ever since the diaspora but make no mistake, they were still a nation, one people with a common bond and goal. And for Jews, a nation is a much more meaning ful and deeper and spiritual significance than just a "country".

In a way, you're right, comparing Judea to just a "country" is comparing apples to oranges.

What the Jews have go way beyond physical borders.

Zionism was not the only one political ideology within the Jews. Many of them, mostly religious ones, do not need or approve Jewish country. Some even reject it for religious reasons. What is more, in the inter-war period Palestine wasn't the only one place considered to become an area for Jewish state. Madagascar was too, for example. There are some nationalities that neither have their state not live on one site - Gypsies being prime example. National states are XIXth century innovation.

So what is that "Judea" thing mentioned in the text shared by you?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Sinful Hypocrite on April 04, 2013, 08:30:49 PM
I believe in no man , I trust only God, and as such there is no one who is innocent, None.

Remember Jesus said that if you get angry at someone you have committed murder.

Matthew 5
Murder

21“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,a and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment.

So we are all guilty of breaking the least of the commandments and so we have broken them all in God's view.

Therefore looking at Hitler as worse than me is wrong even though it is easy, and probably moreso because it is so easy and accepted, this to me is man's worst sin, is acting innocent, and acting as if were above those who were seduced by Satan in Germany.This is what Satan uses aginst us when he wants to tempt us.

Thie truth is  that many have killed in the name of God many more than what Hitler did, Check how many died in Japan in a few hours.
Or how many Blacks were killed maimed and beaten for hundreds of years.
Ask the indians about ethnic cleansing.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Virtual Paradise on April 04, 2013, 10:44:37 PM
There was a country called Judea in the early 1930s?
Jews have always considered themselves a "nation" regardless of what country they're dwelling in  at that time, especially before the state of Israel.

And how is this related to biro's question?
How is not?

She is asking whether Jews had some coutry in 1930s (or, what is that "Judea" thing mentioned in that article you shared). You answer that Jews considered themselves to be a nationality.

Apples to oranges.

Actually, as I understood it( and I may be completely wrong) he seemed to refer to the fact that the term "nation" has been used to describe the jewish people during history. Thus, the term "Judea" might be a reference to jews all over the world.

Yes. Doh!
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Punch on April 04, 2013, 10:49:30 PM
I believe in no man , I trust only God, and as such there is no one who is innocent, None.

Remember Jesus said that if you get angry at someone you have committed murder.

Matthew 5
Murder

21“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,a and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment.

So we are all guilty of breaking the least of the commandments and so we have broken them all in God's view.

Therefore looking at Hitler as worse than me is wrong even though it is easy, and probably moreso because it is so easy and accepted, this to me is man's worst sin, is acting innocent, and acting as if were above those who were seduced by Satan in Germany.This is what Satan uses aginst us when he wants to tempt us.

Thie truth is  that many have killed in the name of God many more than what Hitler did, Check how many died in Japan in a few hours.
Or how many Blacks were killed maimed and beaten for hundreds of years.
Ask the indians about ethnic cleansing.

Good point.  I have no problem with remembering the Jewish Holocaust and trying to prevent it from ever happening again.  The problem that I have with all of the Holocaust hype is that is all about the Jews, and not the Evil.  As has been pointed out, there have been many genocides just in the last two centuries.  Why do we not also remember them?  Is it because the Armenians, Serbs, Native Americans, Chinese, Ukrainians, Gypsis and the like don't own all of media outlets?  The root cause of the Jewish Holocaust is not antisemitism.  It is not the Nazi Party.  It is not Adolf Hitler.  It is the same root cause of all genocides - Evil.  The afore mentioned are just tools that were used to execute that evil.  Address that and all men can shed their fear of genocide, not just the Jews.  

The is no such thing and innocence.  Only degrees of guilt.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: jah777 on April 04, 2013, 11:33:50 PM
What caused Hitler's hate towards the Jews than he wondered around to kill 5+ millions of them ?

What evidence do you have that Hitler intended to kill millions of Jews?  If you understand what led to the pogroms in Russia (which were not supported or sponsored by the State), the role of Jews in the Bolshevik Revolution, and the role of Jews in Germany at the time, it is not difficult to understand why Hitler would want them out of Germany.  From what I have seen, contrary to a great deal of misinformation that has been adopted as the supposedly "official story", Hitler did not seek to exterminate but rather to deport the Jews.  The camps were not set up as extermination camps but rather as work camps.  There is no evidence of human gas chambers, though gas was used in special closets to kill lice which was a problem in the camps.  When the US and the Allies destroyed the transportation infrastructure, they could not get adequate food and medical assistance to those in the camps, and so the plan to deport was not successful and many died in the camps of starvation and disease. 

Unfortunately, there are many fables about the holocaust, and to even suggest this will land you in jail in many countries.  While the death of so many Jews is certainly to be mourned, as should the death of any, a great deal of propaganda around the holocaust was promoted in order to further the Zionist goal of obtaining the State of Israel.  This propaganda campaign has been so successful that the holocaust has been held up as though it were the only mass death worthy of the world's everlasting remembrance, sympathy, and commemoration.  The success of this campaign has been so great, in fact, that one fears even criticizing the State of Israel or any wrongdoing committed by Jews individually or collectively, in that doing so swiftly results in the critic being labeled with the idiotic term "anti-Semite" and equated with the "monster Hitler". 

One can criticize the Russians collectively and call into question the facts surrounding the death of over 20 million people under Stalin.  One can criticize the Chinese collectively and call into question the facts surrounding the death of tens of millions under Mao Ze-Dong.  However, to criticize the Jews collectively and call into question the facts surrounding the death of so many Jews under Hitler is everywhere considered "hateful", and in many places is actually illegal.

The following book and review provide some information on the anti-Jewish pogroms in Russia that set a helpful backdrop for later developments in Russia and Germany.
http://www.amazon.com/Troubled-Waters-Origins-Anti-Jewish-European/dp/082298525X/
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 05, 2013, 05:11:26 AM
...there's plenty of room  of blame to go around on both sides.

That's like telling a rape victim that there is "plenty of room" for the blame to on "both sides."
I agree and post WWI Germany was being raped by "Internationalist" bankers and infiltrated by worldwide communists.

So yea, the victim began fighting back.

Unfortunately a lot of lower-level, average Jews got caught up in it just like a lot of ethnic Germans.

But you are a fool to believe that not a single Jew was complicit in what happened during the Third Reich.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Ansgar on April 05, 2013, 05:15:08 AM
I once read in a history magazine that the nazis forced a jew to become a spy in Palestine. Can't remember his name though.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 05, 2013, 05:35:50 AM
Where do you think "nationalities" come from?

Nations...hello?

Jews were forever searching for a homeland ever since the diaspora but make no mistake, they were still a nation, one people with a common bond and goal. And for Jews, a nation is a much more meaning ful and deeper and spiritual significance than just a "country".

In a way, you're right, comparing Judea to just a "country" is comparing apples to oranges.

What the Jews have go way beyond physical borders.

Zionism was not the only one political ideology within the Jews. Many of them, mostly religious ones, do not need or approve Jewish country. Some even reject it for religious reasons. What is more, in the inter-war period Palestine wasn't the only one place considered to become an area for Jewish state. Madagascar was too, for example. There are some nationalities that neither have their state not live on one site - Gypsies being prime example. National states are XIXth century innovation.
So what is that "Judea" thing mentioned in the text shared by you?
Nation-states go as far back as the ancient Greeks and even further really when you consider parts of Asia and the ME.

Regardless of what  a few religious Jews railed against, the majority of them yearned for a physical homeland and took steps to make this happen, but the fact of the matter is, is that Hitler and the Nazi regime wanted them out of Germany, they were just being facetious about the Madagascar (which is totally unacceptable to Jews) thing, what they were really saying is that they didn't care where they went, just go anywhere except Germany. The Zionists knew quite well that in order for them to go any where, including Palestine, they were going to have to collaborate and have the indegenous peoples thrown off their land and this is exactly what happened. whether this was right or wrong is for another discussion but the Jews knew they were in for a literal fight to establish what they always wanted. the nation-state.

Judea is the tribal term refering to worldwide Jewry, being a Jew is stil a tribal thing like many sects from the ME, tribal concepts are much more powerful and enduring, even the Muslims are broken up amongst tribal connections and loyalties than nations or countries.

Nations, kingdoms, empires come and go but the tribe always remains intact.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 05, 2013, 05:38:19 AM
I once read in a history magazine that the nazis forced a jew to become a spy in Palestine. Can't remember his name though.
You can now replace "nazis" with Israel and Arab for "jew" and it would be more believable today.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Ansgar on April 05, 2013, 05:53:18 AM
I found him. His name was Paul Fackenheim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Ernst_Fackenheim
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: mike on April 05, 2013, 01:40:39 PM
What evidence do you have that Hitler intended to kill millions of Jews?  If you understand what led to the pogroms in Russia (which were not supported or sponsored by the State), the role of Jews in the Bolshevik Revolution, and the role of Jews in Germany at the time, it is not difficult to understand why Hitler would want them out of Germany.  From what I have seen, contrary to a great deal of misinformation that has been adopted as the supposedly "official story", Hitler did not seek to exterminate but rather to deport the Jews.  The camps were not set up as extermination camps but rather as work camps.  There is no evidence of human gas chambers, though gas was used in special closets to kill lice which was a problem in the camps.  When the US and the Allies destroyed the transportation infrastructure, they could not get adequate food and medical assistance to those in the camps, and so the plan to deport was not successful and many died in the camps of starvation and disease. 

Trash.

Nation-states go as far back as the ancient Greeks and even further really when you consider parts of Asia and the ME.

Regardless of what  a few religious Jews railed against, the majority of them yearned for a physical homeland and took steps to make this happen, but the fact of the matter is, is that Hitler and the Nazi regime wanted them out of Germany, they were just being facetious about the Madagascar (which is totally unacceptable to Jews) thing, what they were really saying is that they didn't care where they went, just go anywhere except Germany.

Some facts you will be surprised to get to know.

a) There were no national states in Ancient Greece. Greeks had dozens of independent states who fought each other all the time.

b) The idea of Jews moving to Madagascar appeared in the late XIXth century and was not invented by the Nazis.

c) Not all Jews were Zionists who supported the idea of Jewish state. And even among the Zionists there were at least 3 different opinions where to create it: Palestine, Uganda, Madagascar.

Quote
Judea is the tribal term refering to worldwide Jewry,

Used by whom? Since when? How popularly?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 05, 2013, 06:15:36 PM
Quote
a) There were no national states in Ancient Greece. Greeks had dozens of independent states who fought each other all the time

Nevertheless, they were each and independent "nation-states", this is 5th grade history 101. I can't believe your oblivious to this.

Quote
The idea of Jews moving to Madagascar appeared in the late XIXth century and was not invented by the Nazis.


Uhh, yea sure.Maybe you might want to cite some credible evidence for this.

Quote
Not all Jews were Zionists who supported the idea of Jewish state. And even among the Zionists there were at least 3 different opinions where to create it: Palestine, Uganda, Madagascar.


I don't think so, ask any Jew if he wouldn't mind settling down somewhere in Uganda......or that rather large island off the cost of Africa for that matter, again, you're reaching as usual.

Quote
Used by whom? Since when? How popularly?

Really Michal, do I really have to explain to you that the term "Judea" refers to the Jews themselves? Are you really that intellectually dishonest or just that much more clueless?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Pan Michał on April 05, 2013, 06:22:47 PM
Just my few cents, sorry for interruption.

Nevertheless, they were each and independent "nation-states", this is 5th grade history 101. I can't believe your oblivious to this.

The Greek poleis system is a tangle, and the term "nation" is XIX century invention, prior to that it's simply anachronism.

Uhh, yea sure.Maybe you might want to cite some credible evidence for this.

Kershaw, Ian. Hitler: 1936-1945: Nemesis. New York: Norton, 2000. pp.320-322
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 08, 2013, 01:26:05 AM
He also hated homosexuals, Slavs, Roman Catholics and Blacks. And he most likely would have hated Muslims too once he was done using them in the Middle East, and probably Latin Americans if there were any in Europe. Ultimately, I think his hatred was more inspired by radical patriotism, since Europe has always had a fetish for nationalism. I think the racism was probably the product of his patriotism to demonize the enemy.

Yes but only anti-Semitism was fundamental to the rhetoric and platform of the Nazi Party. Hitler actively collaborated with both Catholics and "Slavs" (see the Nazi-Soviet Pact, or Russian Liberation Army), especially in the earlier years of his dictatorship.

Adolf Hitler was a genius manipulator and lied for propoganda purposes. He hated Christianity as well, but used it to deceive people. My thoughts are that Hitler merely exploited Europe's already-existing anti-Semitic attitude for political purposes, and collaborated with Catholics and Slavs for political purposes. Same reason why he spoke about God and Christ in his speeches, even though he himself was an atheist and saw Christianity as the bastardization of Judaism needing to be eradicated.

I agree with a lot of what you say, but it's not enough. It's one thing to hate a person and another to have him exterminated. Even in war it was found soldiers might fire over the heads of the enemy because they didn't want to kill them - which is why in drill they try and demonize the enemy by calling them something such as "Gook", etc. - anything to dehumanise them
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: mike on April 08, 2013, 07:02:40 AM
Nevertheless, they were each and independent "nation-states", this is 5th grade history 101. I can't believe your oblivious to this.

So how these nations were different since they all practices the same religion, had the same culture. spoke the same language, and had the same religious beliefs?

Quote
I don't think so, ask any Jew if he wouldn't mind settling down somewhere in Uganda......or that rather large island off the cost of Africa for that matter, again

In the early XXth century? Many. Herzl and his supporters for example.

Quote
Really Michal, do I really have to explain to you that the term "Judea" refers to the Jews themselves?

You should prove that the term "Judea" was used in the 1930' by public opinion to describe Jewish socio-national movement whose actions or decisions could be compared to the ones by an independent state. Only in this case your theories will be valid.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: jmbejdl on April 08, 2013, 07:42:23 AM

What evidence do you have that Hitler intended to kill millions of Jews?  If you understand what led to the pogroms in Russia (which were not supported or sponsored by the State), the role of Jews in the Bolshevik Revolution, and the role of Jews in Germany at the time, it is not difficult to understand why Hitler would want them out of Germany.  From what I have seen, contrary to a great deal of misinformation that has been adopted as the supposedly "official story", Hitler did not seek to exterminate but rather to deport the Jews.  The camps were not set up as extermination camps but rather as work camps.  There is no evidence of human gas chambers, though gas was used in special closets to kill lice which was a problem in the camps.  When the US and the Allies destroyed the transportation infrastructure, they could not get adequate food and medical assistance to those in the camps, and so the plan to deport was not successful and many died in the camps of starvation and disease. 


Rubbish. My grandfather's first wife (not Jewish, either) was gassed at Auschwitz. My grandfather was pretty high up in the security guarding an ammunition factory using forced labour (mostly Slav) in north Germany (Pulverfabrik Liebenau to be precise) during the war. He knew what was going on. He said as much to my mother. People, certainly above a certain level, knew what was happening. A lot have said that they didn't but it's rubbish. Some people, such as my grandfather, were honest enough to admit that they knew but that they could do nothing about it. Any argument that there were no gas chambers is simply unsustainable. Hitler did intend to commit genocide (and not just against the Jews either). I honestly can't believe it when people fall for this rubbish, and as someone of German stock with a grandfather who guarded Slav prisoners forced to make ammunition and a great uncle in the Waffen SS you'd think I'd have more reason than many for wanting it covered up (except that I know my grandfather did whatever he could to help the poor people he found himself guarding), but I know that what you wrote was nonsense from the testimony of my own family.

James
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 08, 2013, 08:38:20 AM

What evidence do you have that Hitler intended to kill millions of Jews?  If you understand what led to the pogroms in Russia (which were not supported or sponsored by the State), the role of Jews in the Bolshevik Revolution, and the role of Jews in Germany at the time, it is not difficult to understand why Hitler would want them out of Germany.  From what I have seen, contrary to a great deal of misinformation that has been adopted as the supposedly "official story", Hitler did not seek to exterminate but rather to deport the Jews.  The camps were not set up as extermination camps but rather as work camps.  There is no evidence of human gas chambers, though gas was used in special closets to kill lice which was a problem in the camps.  When the US and the Allies destroyed the transportation infrastructure, they could not get adequate food and medical assistance to those in the camps, and so the plan to deport was not successful and many died in the camps of starvation and disease. 


Rubbish. My grandfather's first wife (not Jewish, either) was gassed at Auschwitz. My grandfather was pretty high up in the security guarding an ammunition factory using forced labour (mostly Slav) in north Germany (Pulverfabrik Liebenau to be precise) during the war. He knew what was going on. He said as much to my mother. People, certainly above a certain level, knew what was happening. A lot have said that they didn't but it's rubbish. Some people, such as my grandfather, were honest enough to admit that they knew but that they could do nothing about it. Any argument that there were no gas chambers is simply unsustainable. Hitler did intend to commit genocide (and not just against the Jews either). I honestly can't believe it when people fall for this rubbish, and as someone of German stock with a grandfather who guarded Slav prisoners forced to make ammunition and a great uncle in the Waffen SS you'd think I'd have more reason than many for wanting it covered up (except that I know my grandfather did whatever he could to help the poor people he found himself guarding), but I know that what you wrote was nonsense from the testimony of my own family.

James
It's amazing people try to distance Hitler from this

Hitler was a coward who wouldn't give his name to the Final Solution, but he knew what was going on
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: jmbejdl on April 08, 2013, 08:51:05 AM

What evidence do you have that Hitler intended to kill millions of Jews?  If you understand what led to the pogroms in Russia (which were not supported or sponsored by the State), the role of Jews in the Bolshevik Revolution, and the role of Jews in Germany at the time, it is not difficult to understand why Hitler would want them out of Germany.  From what I have seen, contrary to a great deal of misinformation that has been adopted as the supposedly "official story", Hitler did not seek to exterminate but rather to deport the Jews.  The camps were not set up as extermination camps but rather as work camps.  There is no evidence of human gas chambers, though gas was used in special closets to kill lice which was a problem in the camps.  When the US and the Allies destroyed the transportation infrastructure, they could not get adequate food and medical assistance to those in the camps, and so the plan to deport was not successful and many died in the camps of starvation and disease. 


Rubbish. My grandfather's first wife (not Jewish, either) was gassed at Auschwitz. My grandfather was pretty high up in the security guarding an ammunition factory using forced labour (mostly Slav) in north Germany (Pulverfabrik Liebenau to be precise) during the war. He knew what was going on. He said as much to my mother. People, certainly above a certain level, knew what was happening. A lot have said that they didn't but it's rubbish. Some people, such as my grandfather, were honest enough to admit that they knew but that they could do nothing about it. Any argument that there were no gas chambers is simply unsustainable. Hitler did intend to commit genocide (and not just against the Jews either). I honestly can't believe it when people fall for this rubbish, and as someone of German stock with a grandfather who guarded Slav prisoners forced to make ammunition and a great uncle in the Waffen SS you'd think I'd have more reason than many for wanting it covered up (except that I know my grandfather did whatever he could to help the poor people he found himself guarding), but I know that what you wrote was nonsense from the testimony of my own family.

James
It's amazing people try to distance Hitler from this

Hitler was a coward who wouldn't give his name to the Final Solution, but he knew what was going on

Indeed. If my grandfather knew enough about what was going on to allow him to immediately understand that his wife had been gassed based on nothing more than the address and the spurious cause of 'pneumonia' on the death notice (as both she and he were non-Jewish German citizens he was actually notified of her death), how anyone can argue that the architect of it all either didn't know or didn't mean to is utterly beyond me.

James
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Velsigne on April 08, 2013, 09:19:39 AM
What caused Hitler's hate towards the Jews than he wondered around to kill 5+ millions of them ?

What evidence do you have that Hitler intended to kill millions of Jews? 

The Wansee Conference is understood to be a critical meeting and planning stage. 
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Sinful Hypocrite on April 08, 2013, 07:53:04 PM
The issue with the intent of the Nazis or Hitler is that the Death Camps were started after most of the other programs were in place and many other options as to what ultimately should be done with the Jews were discussed.

Such as relocating them to the island of Madagascar.

If Killing them all had been the original intent , then these other options would not have been seriously discussed.
And the death camps would have been operating long before 1942 if that was the intention from the start.

It has been said that they really did not care about racism and killing as much as they were in the markets and wealth accumulation.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Punch on April 08, 2013, 08:01:15 PM
The issue with the intent of the Nazis or Hitler is that the Death Camps were started after most of the other programs were in place and many other options as to what ultimately should be done with the Jews were discussed.

Such as relocating them to the island of Madagascar.

If Killing them all had been the original intent , then these other options would not have been seriously discussed.
And the death camps would have been operating long before 1942 if that was the intention from the start.

It has been said that they really did not care about racism and killing as much as they were in the markets and wealth accumulation.

Make no mistake, there were those that wanted them dead, and exterminated from the Earth.  Not all of them (Rudolf Hess for one), but enough of them that it was eventually going to happen.  There were Jews being rounded up and killed long before 1942.  They had just not made an industry of it before then.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Sinful Hypocrite on April 08, 2013, 08:19:24 PM
Yes that is true that they had already killed many Jews before the death camps started., but other Countries had done that to many different races throughout history .

Also I have read where out of 8000 lawyers in Vienna in 1936,  7000 were jews. Which as I said before, is that many sympathized with the Nazis as far as they felt they would benefit monetarily from it. They were not out to kill as much as profit and teach them a lesson.

As far as their racism, None had ever said it outright in quite the same way , but there have been many who felt they were the master Race  long before the Nazis said it.

And there were many in other countries who secretly wished the Nazis would succeed. I was personally told that by racist ww2 veterans in the Chicago area..
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Punch on April 08, 2013, 09:45:29 PM
Yes that is true that they had already killed many Jews before the death camps started., but other Countries had done that to many different races throughout history .

Also I have read where out of 8000 lawyers in Vienna in 1936,  7000 were jews. Which as I said before, is that many sympathized with the Nazis as far as they felt they would benefit monetarily from it. They were not out to kill as much as profit and teach them a lesson.

As far as their racism, None had ever said it outright in quite the same way , but there have been many who felt they were the master Race  long before the Nazis said it.

And there were many in other countries who secretly wished the Nazis would succeed. I was personally told that by racist ww2 veterans in the Chicago area..

There is an old story that the only rail lines that we never bombed were the ones to Auschwitz.  And we knew what was going on there LONG before the war ended.  I don't know if it is true, but it would be interesting to look in to.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Jason.Wike on April 08, 2013, 09:57:44 PM
He was a psychopath.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Father H on April 08, 2013, 10:20:16 PM
What caused Hitler's hate towards the Jews than he wondered around to kill 5+ millions of them ?

Political opportunity supplemented by perverse norse pagan occultism. 

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Velsigne on April 08, 2013, 10:20:56 PM
Yes that is true that they had already killed many Jews before the death camps started., but other Countries had done that to many different races throughout history .

Also I have read where out of 8000 lawyers in Vienna in 1936,  7000 were jews. Which as I said before, is that many sympathized with the Nazis as far as they felt they would benefit monetarily from it. They were not out to kill as much as profit and teach them a lesson.

As far as their racism, None had ever said it outright in quite the same way , but there have been many who felt they were the master Race  long before the Nazis said it.

And there were many in other countries who secretly wished the Nazis would succeed. I was personally told that by racist ww2 veterans in the Chicago area..

There is an old story that the only rail lines that we never bombed were the ones to Auschwitz.  And we knew what was going on there LONG before the war ended.  I don't know if it is true, but it would be interesting to look in to.

One aspect that was really silenced was the testimony of Rudolf Vrba, who lectured at one of our WWII history classes.  A very small book was written and promptly denounced by the political Zionists.  He does have a very brief appearance in the documentary Shoah.

Vrba was one of two men who escaped Auschwiz-Berkinau.  He worked in the intake room of the camp where arrivals were registered.  He kept count in his head of the numbers of people passing through.  When he escaped he went to everyone he could to tell them what was going on in the camp.  He also went to Hungary, where the last group of Jews was to be shipped out.  The Zionists that eventually settled in Israel had brokered a deal with the Germans called "blood for trucks".  They basically sold out their own people to save their skins, and certain Jews were shipped from Hungary, despite Vrba telling them what the fate of those people would be.  

That would be a starter for study.  Vrba told a lot of important people what was going on to no avail.   He came under fire from many quarters for telling his experience.  He moved to Canada, and has passed on.  
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: JamesR on April 09, 2013, 12:51:55 AM
Didn't the Ruskies kill more Jews in the gulags than Adolf Hitler did? And having some German in my background, I feel somewhat appalled that Germans are always demonized whenever World War II is brought up. Why doesn't anyone mention all of the war crimes that Japan committed against civilians, or that of the USSR when they invaded Germany? Or that the Allies had Germany shoved in a corner on a leash, impoverished, scapegoated and forced to pay all their expenses after the Great War? I don't find it too bad that they finally snapped and stood up for themselves. Sure the racism and holocaust was bad, but most Germans on the field had no idea about it. That's why Hitler had to create a special division precisely in charge of carrying out his holocaust. If Adolf Hitler didn't start the holocaust and formulate a racial supremacist philosophy, he'd be remembered as a national hero martyr in Germany to this day...
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: jmbejdl on April 09, 2013, 03:42:07 AM
Didn't the Ruskies kill more Jews in the gulags than Adolf Hitler did? And having some German in my background, I feel somewhat appalled that Germans are always demonized whenever World War II is brought up. Why doesn't anyone mention all of the war crimes that Japan committed against civilians, or that of the USSR when they invaded Germany? Or that the Allies had Germany shoved in a corner on a leash, impoverished, scapegoated and forced to pay all their expenses after the Great War? I don't find it too bad that they finally snapped and stood up for themselves. Sure the racism and holocaust was bad, but most Germans on the field had no idea about it. That's why Hitler had to create a special division precisely in charge of carrying out his holocaust. If Adolf Hitler didn't start the holocaust and formulate a racial supremacist philosophy, he'd be remembered as a national hero martyr in Germany to this day...

Personally I'd rather that people countered the demonising of Germans in WWII by pointing to the good things people did in opposition to the Nazis, whether that be the famous examples such as Schindler or Die Weisse Rose (one of whom is an Orthodox saint I'd note) or the little people who aren't so well known but saved, or tried to, individuals here and there. It seems to me that seeking to excuse one nation by pointing out the sins of others is hardly helpful.

My greatest pride is that my grandfather, who was a member of the party though he had no choice due to his job, saved one family from the slave labour in Liebenau and was so well liked and respected by the inmates there that a Russian prisoner of war made a ladle for him from scrap as a thank you. I grew up being served soup with that ladle and it is genuinely the only thing I care about inheriting. The fact that there were good Germans who did what they could in the face of such horrors is a point that should not be forgotten.

James
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: mike on April 09, 2013, 04:48:19 AM
Didn't the Ruskies kill more Jews in the gulags than Adolf Hitler did? And having some German in my background, I feel somewhat appalled that Germans are always demonized whenever World War II is brought up. Why doesn't anyone mention all of the war crimes that Japan committed against civilians, or that of the USSR when they invaded Germany? Or that the Allies had Germany shoved in a corner on a leash, impoverished, scapegoated and forced to pay all their expenses after the Great War? I don't find it too bad that they finally snapped and stood up for themselves. Sure the racism and holocaust was bad, but most Germans on the field had no idea about it. That's why Hitler had to create a special division precisely in charge of carrying out his holocaust. If Adolf Hitler didn't start the holocaust and formulate a racial supremacist philosophy, he'd be remembered as a national hero martyr in Germany to this day...

Failing to notice own's nation faults is not an example of patriotism. Quite the contrary.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 09, 2013, 06:48:18 AM
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So how these nations were different since they all practices the same religion, had the same culture. spoke the same language, and had the same religious beliefs?

The ancient Greek nation-states were most certainly separated through cultural, philosphical and civic values and norms. the most prime example of course were Athens and Sparta, yes they had for the most part the same language, myths and for the most part ethnicity but were worlds apart philosophically with the Spartans being the pure authoritarian, militant state with the warrior for the state being the apex of achievement in this life while the Athenians placing a high regard on intellect, philosophy and democracy.

The nation-states were indeed separate and distinct but would ally occasionally with the outside threat to Hellenism as in the case of the Persians.

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In the early XXth century? Many. Herzl and his supporters for example.

Returning to the "promised land" (Not Madagascar or anywhere else) has always been the goal for the Jews and from what I understand from the most basic Judaism is that they were supposed to wait and be led by the true Messiah. Which they didn't of course.



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you should prove that the term "Judea" was used in the 1930' by public opinion to describe Jewish socio-national movement whose actions or decisions could be compared to the ones by an independent state. Only in this case your theories will be valid.
 

I don't have to prove nothing, the Jews have always considered themselves a separate people no matter what nation or state they were dwelling at the time, this is historical fact, the Jews themselves knowingly and openly admit to this, why do you think so many still have this "dual citizenship" with Israel no matter what country they live in? and believe me, if and when the crap hits the proverbial fan, they will most certainly choose their loyalties with Israel over any nation in which they dwell. Why even many in this country feel that this is their duty and is to be expected from them. That's how brainwashed many are over the issue of Israel, Zionism and the Jews.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: mike on April 09, 2013, 06:55:28 AM
The ancient Greek nation-states were most certainly separated through cultural, philosphical and civic values and norms. the most prime example of course were Athens and Sparta, yes they had for the most part the same language, myths and for the most part ethnicity but were worlds apart philosophically with the Spartans being the pure authoritarian, militant state with the warrior for the state being the apex of achievement in this life while the Athenians placing a high regard on intellect, philosophy and democracy.

Are Southerners and Yankees separate nationalities?

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The nation-states were indeed separate and distinct but would ally occasionally with the outside threat to Hellenism as in the case of the Persians.

What is this "Hellenism".

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Returning to the "promised land" (Not Madagascar or anywhere else) has always been the goal for the Jews and from what I understand from the most basic Judaism is that they were supposed to wait and be led by the true Messiah. Which they didn't of course.

You ignored my argument, shut up your eyes and keep repeating what you have imagined.

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I don't have to prove nothing, the Jews have always considered themselves a separate people no matter what nation or state they were dwelling at the time, this is historical fact, the Jews themselves knowingly and openly admit to this, why do you think so many still have this "dual citizenship" with Israel no matter what country they live in? and believe me, if and when the crap hits the proverbial fan, they will most certainly choose their loyalties with Israel over any nation in which they dwell. Why even many in this country feel that this is their duty and is to be expected from them. That's how brainwashed many are over the issue of Israel, Zionism and the Jews.

You fail (or pretend to fail my argument). You cited that article that alleged boycott Germany by that mysterious "Judea" is comparable to the actions of the German state. You should prove it now.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 09, 2013, 07:01:40 AM
Didn't the Ruskies kill more Jews in the gulags than Adolf Hitler did? And having some German in my background, I feel somewhat appalled that Germans are always demonized whenever World War II is brought up. Why doesn't anyone mention all of the war crimes that Japan committed against civilians, or that of the USSR when they invaded Germany? Or that the Allies had Germany shoved in a corner on a leash, impoverished, scapegoated and forced to pay all their expenses after the Great War? I don't find it too bad that they finally snapped and stood up for themselves. Sure the racism and holocaust was bad, but most Germans on the field had no idea about it. That's why Hitler had to create a special division precisely in charge of carrying out his holocaust. If Adolf Hitler didn't start the holocaust and formulate a racial supremacist philosophy, he'd be remembered as a national hero martyr in Germany to this day...
Stalin was a true monster and killed millions of his own people, far more than Hitler and NS Germany ever imagined.

Then he turned on the Jews who supported him in his genocidal policies.

We almost never hear about Communist atrocities which were far more devastating and over reaching for not only Europe but the entire globe and the Church herself. But Communism is a Jewish construct, therefore it's treated with kid gloves.


Hitler and the Germans will always be the monster and the state of Germany will pay for her "sins" through eternity and the Jewish/Zionist media and academia wil remind us of this fact over and over and over and over until of course their will be fierce backlash and the Jews will suffer more persectuion and the cycle begins all over again.

One day the real Messiah will return and put an end to all of this for good. But until that happens, expect more of the same.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 09, 2013, 07:22:51 AM
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Are Southerners and Yankees separate nationalities?

What, pray tell, does this have to do with ethnic Jews and Germans?

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What is this "Hellenism".

My Lord, you're Orthodox and never heard of it? What, did you go to public school in America or something?

Anyway, it's just a Google search  click away.

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You ignored my argument, shut up your eyes and keep repeating what you have imagined.

I think I answered you pretty direct. I don't what else to say that would convince you that the Jews have always intended to return to Israel, not Madagascar, you seem to be the one that has eyes but does not see. I feel like I'm arguing with Josef Goebbels here.

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You fail (or pretend to fail my argument). You cited that article that alleged boycott Germany by that mysterious "Judea" is comparable to the actions of the German state. You should prove it now.
If you don't get the fact that Jews move as a collective especially in defense of Jews and Judaism I don't know what else to tell you, it's so blatantly obvious and they do not deny this. You just keep living in a fantasy world if you want, for some people, reality is an option I guess.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: jmbejdl on April 09, 2013, 07:29:49 AM
Then he turned on the Jews who supported him in his genocidal policies.

We almost never hear about Communist atrocities which were far more devastating and over reaching for not only Europe but the entire globe and the Church herself. But Communism is a Jewish construct, therefore it's treated with kid gloves.


Hitler and the Germans will always be the monster and the state of Germany will pay for her "sins" through eternity and the Jewish/Zionist media and academia wil remind us of this fact over and over and over and over until of course their will be fierce backlash and the Jews will suffer more persectuion and the cycle begins all over again.

One day the real Messiah will return and put an end to all of this for good. But until that happens, expect more of the same.

You may never hear about Communist atrocities. I hear about them all the time. Of course, half my own family growing up were behind the iron curtain and all my wife's were (and right on the new border in Bucovina where the Fântâna Albă massacre remains very much in people's minds) and I'm a member of a very ethnic parish where almost everyone over the age of about 35 (and even some younger) can remember at least something about what it was like to grow up under communism. We don't treat Communism with kid gloves at all - quite the reverse - but the crimes of Communism neither mitigate nor excuse the crimes of National Socialism.

James
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 09, 2013, 07:38:07 AM
Didn't the Ruskies kill more Jews in the gulags than Adolf Hitler did? And having some German in my background, I feel somewhat appalled that Germans are always demonized whenever World War II is brought up. Why doesn't anyone mention all of the war crimes that Japan committed against civilians, or that of the USSR when they invaded Germany? Or that the Allies had Germany shoved in a corner on a leash, impoverished, scapegoated and forced to pay all their expenses after the Great War? I don't find it too bad that they finally snapped and stood up for themselves. Sure the racism and holocaust was bad, but most Germans on the field had no idea about it. That's why Hitler had to create a special division precisely in charge of carrying out his holocaust. If Adolf Hitler didn't start the holocaust and formulate a racial supremacist philosophy, he'd be remembered as a national hero martyr in Germany to this day...

Forgive me, but that's a very silly attitude. Germany began WWII with a plan to conquer the world - Hitler stated he wanted 'breathing space' for the master race; the German people.

People mention war crimes against civilians all the time (except in Japan).

Germany didn't just 'stand up for itself'. It didn't just seek redress for the Treaty of Versailles WHICH IT AGREED TO!

Even without the Holocaust Hitler was still evil. He rounded up and executed opposition groups, destroyed freedoms, etc. even before the systematic (factory-like) murder system of the Holocaust. And he was a war monger.

He supported the fascists in Spain's civil war. He allied himself with Italy after Italy had used poison gas against civilians in Ethiopia.

No address for past wrongs could justify his annexation of Czechoslovakia

I would strongly recommend that you read on the topic before commenting.





I have German roots as well
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: mike on April 09, 2013, 07:42:12 AM
What, pray tell, does this have to do with ethnic Jews and Germans?

It has something to do with different "nationalities" in ancien Greek states.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 09, 2013, 07:45:44 AM
Didn't the Ruskies kill more Jews in the gulags than Adolf Hitler did? And having some German in my background, I feel somewhat appalled that Germans are always demonized whenever World War II is brought up. Why doesn't anyone mention all of the war crimes that Japan committed against civilians, or that of the USSR when they invaded Germany? Or that the Allies had Germany shoved in a corner on a leash, impoverished, scapegoated and forced to pay all their expenses after the Great War? I don't find it too bad that they finally snapped and stood up for themselves. Sure the racism and holocaust was bad, but most Germans on the field had no idea about it. That's why Hitler had to create a special division precisely in charge of carrying out his holocaust. If Adolf Hitler didn't start the holocaust and formulate a racial supremacist philosophy, he'd be remembered as a national hero martyr in Germany to this day...
Stalin was a true monster and killed millions of his own people, far more than Hitler and NS Germany ever imagined.

Then he turned on the Jews who supported him in his genocidal policies.

We almost never hear about Communist atrocities which were far more devastating and over reaching for not only Europe but the entire globe and the Church herself. But Communism is a Jewish construct, therefore it's treated with kid gloves.


Hitler and the Germans will always be the monster and the state of Germany will pay for her "sins" through eternity and the Jewish/Zionist media and academia wil remind us of this fact over and over and over and over until of course their will be fierce backlash and the Jews will suffer more persectuion and the cycle begins all over again.

One day the real Messiah will return and put an end to all of this for good. But until that happens, expect more of the same.

Communism is not a Jewish construct.

Unless you count Jewishness as 'racial'... because Karl Marx was not a practicing Jew, and there's no links between Judaism and Communism.

In fact there's links between Christianity and Communism.

In the 1600's in England there were primitive communistic communities that got their collective ideas from Christianity; such groups as the Levelers, and the Diggers.

The levelers believed in equality - everyone on the same level. They had a small poem carried over from the Peasant's revolt
"When Adam delved and Eve span, who was then the gentleman?"*

The Diggers farmed land collectively.

In Acts of the Apostles the community gave all their money to the Apostles and this was then doled out as needed which is repeated in and as a Marxist phrase: From each according to his ability, to each according to his need


*
When Adam delved and Eve span,[a] Who was then the gentleman?[3] From the beginning all men by nature were created alike, and our bondage or servitude came in by the unjust oppression of naughty men. For if God would have had any bondmen from the beginning, he would have appointed who should be bond, and who free. And therefore I exhort you to consider that now the time is come, appointed to us by God, in which ye may (if ye will) cast off the yoke of bondage, and recover liberty
-the priest John Ball
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ball_(priest)

There's enough anti-Semitic propaganda out there already without it creeping into this forum!
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: theo philosopher on April 09, 2013, 01:22:10 PM
I'm sometimes shocked and appalled at how anti-semitism still runs rampant in the Orthodox Church (and Roman Catholic Church, and just Europe in general) under the guise of "anti-Israel." One can be against Israel's policies without being against the Jews, downgrading the Holocaust, or demonizing an entire people group.

For one, Communism is and always will be a Christian heresy. It is not a Jewish construct by any stretch. Though Karl Marx was ethnically Jewish, he was an atheist as well as a strict materialist. He took the Christian social Gospel and removed God from the equation and instead instituted the collective, which is why it is a Christian heresy. The reason Communism is treated with these so-called "kid gloves" isn't because it's a "Jewish construct," but because most academics actually believe it's a good idea. I've had friends go so far as to say that a violent revolution is needed, along with the killing of political dissinters. That has nothing to do with Communism being Jewish, but everything to do with it being materialistic. Even neo-Marxism and post-Marxism have become softer on religious views, seeing religion not necessarily as an opiate, but something that can be used to transform the world into a collective.

As for Germans not knowing what was going on, the reality is they did (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/03/sunday-review/the-holocaust-just-got-more-shocking.html?pagewanted=all"). The Americans knew they were committing genocide against the Native Americans, but justified it under "Manifest Destiny." The Spaniards knew they were enslaving the Native populations in the New World, but justified it as prosperity. The English knew they were killing and murdering Africans, but they justified it as necessary. The Turks knew they were murdering Armenians, but the people justified it as in the nation's best interests. Likewise, the Germans knew that Jews were being used as slaves and even being killed, but they justified it as a cleansing. With some 42,500 Nazi camps throughout Europe, all meant for undesirables, there's no way the average German could plead ignorance to what the Nazis were doing.

Third, having German blood does not justify a defense of Germany. You have German blood, so what? Your genetic ancestry is quite irrelevant to the truth of the matter. If we all traced our genetic ancestry we would find that we descend from murderers, rapists, and genocidal maniacs. That is simply how the human race works. Our job isn't to defend our history and put a rose on it, but to correct the past mistakes and create a better future.

We live in a fallen world. Buying into nationalism or racism doesn't fix our problems. Trying to justify an evil act - such as the Holocaust - doesn't make things better. Yes, more focus is placed on Jews lost in the Holocaust, but that is because they made up nearly 50% of the victims. Regardless, all lives lost in this tragic event should not be downplayed or seen as a cause of their own demise. That is not the Christian approach to this matter. Rather, the Christian approach is to realize that we are all fallen away from God, that we are all murderers in our own way, and that we should seek to correct this error through Grace. Anything short will result in failure.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: JamesR on April 09, 2013, 02:38:46 PM
Forgive me, but that's a very silly attitude. Germany began WWII with a plan to conquer the world - Hitler stated he wanted 'breathing space' for the master race; the German people.

You mean like the British Empire which wanted to conquer the entire world?

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Germany didn't just 'stand up for itself'. It didn't just seek redress for the Treaty of Versailles WHICH IT AGREED TO!

But why is Germany so demonized for its imperialism even though Europe as a whole was imperialistic at the time? The British Empire and USSR were the most imperialistic, violent European powers there were at the time. But their atrocities get overlooked. But when Germany rises out of a dark corner and starts to kick their butts, everyone demonized Germany.

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Even without the Holocaust Hitler was still evil. He rounded up and executed opposition groups, destroyed freedoms, etc....

You mean like the British Empire and the USSR?

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And he was a war monger.

You mean like the British Empire?

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He allied himself with Italy after Italy had used poison gas against civilians in Ethiopia.

Any different than the British Empire cutting off Indian peoples' thumbs and shooting them for protesting?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 09, 2013, 06:57:05 PM
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Communism is not a Jewish construct.

Sure it is, they even admit it themselves.


 From the Jewish Encyclopedia: ""Jews have been prominently identified with the modern Socialist movement from its very inception." "Scientific socialism," or what we call communism, says the Universal Jewish Encyclopedia in its article on socialism, "originated in the combination of Jewish Messianic feeling with German philosophy" 1 Marx, of course, was Jewish. But, just as important, Jews at all levels, from high financiers like the Warburgs, Schiffs and Rothschilds to rugged revolutionaries like Trotsky, Kamenev, Sverdlov and Zinoviev, made the success of communism possible.

Bolshevism would eventually become the Jewish cause.

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Unless you count Jewishness as 'racial'... because Karl Marx was not a practicing Jew, and there's no links between Judaism and Communism.

That's about the most nonsensical statement I ever heard concerning Jews or Communism. Many Jews in the early 20th century wer enthralled in Communism, this is well documented. And if the Jew Marx was not a "practicing" (just what the heck is that?) Jew, in other words, a spiritual one I suppose, then just what would the label 'jew" be concerning him if it wasn't ethnic or "racial" as you put it?


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In fact there's links between Christianity and Communism.

I don't doubt that for a second. It is well known that the Reds have infiltrated the Church, but the Church is not in essence, communist. It is not necessarily a "communist" construct but the AntiChrist Bolshevists would appear to make it so.


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There's enough anti-Semitic propaganda out there already without it creeping into this forum!

Oh Lord, here we go with the emotional outbursts and slanderous accusations of the big "A' to anyone who might be getting at the truth a little bit, especially when it concerns the master, er I mean Chosen race. I think you need to define just what "antisemitism" really is, because, I don't believe I fit the profile, whatever that is.

Besides, I could never really be a true "antisemite", some of my best friends are Arabs. ;D
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 09, 2013, 07:04:50 PM
Forgive me, but that's a very silly attitude. Germany began WWII with a plan to conquer the world - Hitler stated he wanted 'breathing space' for the master race; the German people.

You mean like the British Empire which wanted to conquer the entire world?

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Germany didn't just 'stand up for itself'. It didn't just seek redress for the Treaty of Versailles WHICH IT AGREED TO!

But why is Germany so demonized for its imperialism even though Europe as a whole was imperialistic at the time? The British Empire and USSR were the most imperialistic, violent European powers there were at the time. But their atrocities get overlooked. But when Germany rises out of a dark corner and starts to kick their butts, everyone demonized Germany.

Quote
Even without the Holocaust Hitler was still evil. He rounded up and executed opposition groups, destroyed freedoms, etc....

You mean like the British Empire and the USSR?

Quote
And he was a war monger.

You mean like the British Empire?

Quote
He allied himself with Italy after Italy had used poison gas against civilians in Ethiopia.

Any different than the British Empire cutting off Indian peoples' thumbs and shooting them for protesting?
Good points James, but you'll have a hard time convincing the Anglophiles that the British Crown was anything less than a divine instituion, they truly believe it was God's Will for the British empire to dominate almost a quater of the world's surface.

The sun truly never set on the British Empire at one time.

But those nasty ol evil Germans tried to take over the world with that little strip of land alongside the Polish corridor. ::)
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 09, 2013, 07:23:09 PM
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Forgive me, but that's a very silly attitude. Germany began WWII with a plan to conquer the world

WWII began when Britain and France attacked Germany for invading Poland while they conveniently left communist Soviet Russia alone who was simultaneously invading the Polish from the East. Get your facts straight.

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Hitler stated he wanted 'breathing space' for the master race; the German people.

He said he wanted Lebensraum, "living space", but what he was really tallking about was reclaiming German territory that was stolen from them unfairly after WWI by the allies, basically German land. I don't think he ever used the term "master race" either.

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Germany didn't just 'stand up for itself'. It didn't just seek redress for the Treaty of Versailles WHICH IT AGREED TO!

At the point of a gun. Hitler and the NS's also believed that the German nation never really surrendered at the end of the war and did not ever start it to begin with, they believe they were sold out by traitorus leaders in league with the allies for financial gain.


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He supported the fascists in Spain's civil war.

Against the meddling Bolshevists and the commies lost, thank God.

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I would strongly recommend that you read on the topic before commenting.

You should take some of your own advice.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: mike on April 09, 2013, 07:40:13 PM
He said he wanted Lebensraum, "living space", but what he was really tallking about was reclaiming German territory that was stolen from them unfairly after WWI by the allies, basically German land.

I didn't know Voronezh, Rostov or Belgorod had been German anywhere prior to WW II.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Sinful Hypocrite on April 09, 2013, 07:42:18 PM
Didn't the Ruskies kill more Jews in the gulags than Adolf Hitler did? And having some German in my background, I feel somewhat appalled that Germans are always demonized whenever World War II is brought up. Why doesn't anyone mention all of the war crimes that Japan committed against civilians, or that of the USSR when they invaded Germany? Or that the Allies had Germany shoved in a corner on a leash, impoverished, scapegoated and forced to pay all their expenses after the Great War? I don't find it too bad that they finally snapped and stood up for themselves. Sure the racism and holocaust was bad, but most Germans on the field had no idea about it. That's why Hitler had to create a special division precisely in charge of carrying out his holocaust. If Adolf Hitler didn't start the holocaust and formulate a racial supremacist philosophy, he'd be remembered as a national hero martyr in Germany to this day...

It is better to get the log out of our own eye , only then we can help our brother with the sliver in his.

As americans that would mean talking about the Blacks , Native americans, and also for WW2 the First nuclear obliteration of humanity, where 100s of thousands died in minutes.

Mat 7
5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on April 09, 2013, 07:51:44 PM
There was a country called Judea in the early 1930s?
Jews have always considered themselves a "nation" regardless of what country they're dwelling in  at that time, especially before the state of Israel.

And how is this related to biro's question?

He's trying to say that the Jews are equally responsible for the hatred because apparently protesting injustice makes you as bad as the oppressor or some other weirdo White Man's Burden theory.
I just said there's plenty of room  of blame to go around on both sides.

You're the one hung up on race buddy.

There is not enough blame on both sides to justify the Holocaust. There is no good reason to justify the great leftist monsters of the 20th Century, folks like Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, etc...
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 09, 2013, 07:54:50 PM
He said he wanted Lebensraum, "living space", but what he was really tallking about was reclaiming German territory that was stolen from them unfairly after WWI by the allies, basically German land.

I didn't know Voronezh, Rostov or Belgorod had been German anywhere prior to WW II.
The inevitable showdown with the Soviets was going to happen anyway.

Germany figured they'd take them out quick while they could.

They miscalculated big time. It cost them the war.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 09, 2013, 08:00:39 PM
There was a country called Judea in the early 1930s?
Jews have always considered themselves a "nation" regardless of what country they're dwelling in  at that time, especially before the state of Israel.

And how is this related to biro's question?

He's trying to say that the Jews are equally responsible for the hatred because apparently protesting injustice makes you as bad as the oppressor or some other weirdo White Man's Burden theory.
I just said there's plenty of room  of blame to go around on both sides.

You're the one hung up on race buddy.

There is not enough blame on both sides to justify the Holocaust. There is no good reason to justify the great leftist monsters of the 20th Century, folks like Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, etc...
I agree, but these "monsters" gained momentum for a reason.

Let me ask you a question, do  you think God allowed the holocaust just to happen?

I've heard that the Jews actually find God complicit in allowing it.

The Jews have actually "judged" God.


Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: TheMathematician on April 09, 2013, 08:07:23 PM
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So how these nations were different since they all practices the same religion, had the same culture. spoke the same language, and had the same religious beliefs?

The ancient Greek nation-states were most certainly separated through cultural, philosphical and civic values and norms. the most prime example of course were Athens and Sparta, yes they had for the most part the same language, myths and for the most part ethnicity but were worlds apart philosophically with the Spartans being the pure authoritarian, militant state with the warrior for the state being the apex of achievement in this life while the Athenians placing a high regard on intellect, philosophy and democracy.

The nation-states were indeed separate and distinct but would ally occasionally with the outside threat to Hellenism as in the case of the Persians.

Quote
In the early XXth century? Many. Herzl and his supporters for example.

Returning to the "promised land" (Not Madagascar or anywhere else) has always been the goal for the Jews and from what I understand from the most basic Judaism is that they were supposed to wait and be led by the true Messiah. Which they didn't of course.



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you should prove that the term "Judea" was used in the 1930' by public opinion to describe Jewish socio-national movement whose actions or decisions could be compared to the ones by an independent state. Only in this case your theories will be valid.
 

I don't have to prove nothing, the Jews have always considered themselves a separate people no matter what nation or state they were dwelling at the time, this is historical fact, the Jews themselves knowingly and openly admit to this, why do you think so many still have this "dual citizenship" with Israel no matter what country they live in? and believe me, if and when the crap hits the proverbial fan, they will most certainly choose their loyalties with Israel over any nation in which they dwell. Why even many in this country feel that this is their duty and is to be expected from them. That's how brainwashed many are over the issue of Israel, Zionism and the Jews.

Just a small little correction here, the Greeks hate city-states, not nation-states
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Sinful Hypocrite on April 09, 2013, 08:24:08 PM
There was a country called Judea in the early 1930s?
Jews have always considered themselves a "nation" regardless of what country they're dwelling in  at that time, especially before the state of Israel.



And how is this related to biro's question?

He's trying to say that the Jews are equally responsible for the hatred because apparently protesting injustice makes you as bad as the oppressor or some other weirdo White Man's Burden theory.
I just said there's plenty of room  of blame to go around on both sides.

You're the one hung up on race buddy.

There is not enough blame on both sides to justify the Holocaust. There is no good reason to justify the great leftist monsters of the 20th Century, folks like Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, etc...
I agree, but these "monsters" gained momentum for a reason.

Let me ask you a question, do  you think God allowed the holocaust just to happen?

I've heard that the Jews actually find God complicit in allowing it.

The Jews have actually "judged" God.





Satan is the one wants these things to happen, to show how racist the whole world is. Which he is correct about the world being racist.

Our salvation only comes through God when we admit our sins and ask forgiveness, and look to him to take care of Satan .

 We must then be like Job and not lose faith and do not let Satan take what little we have away lest we fall into his pit
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 09, 2013, 09:53:13 PM
Quote
Communism is not a Jewish construct.

Sure it is, they even admit it themselves.


 From the Jewish Encyclopedia: ""Jews have been prominently identified with the modern Socialist movement from its very inception." "Scientific socialism," or what we call communism, says the Universal Jewish Encyclopedia in its article on socialism, "originated in the combination of Jewish Messianic feeling with German philosophy" 1 Marx, of course, was Jewish. But, just as important, Jews at all levels, from high financiers like the Warburgs, Schiffs and Rothschilds to rugged revolutionaries like Trotsky, Kamenev, Sverdlov and Zinoviev, made the success of communism possible.

Bolshevism would eventually become the Jewish cause.

Quote
Unless you count Jewishness as 'racial'... because Karl Marx was not a practicing Jew, and there's no links between Judaism and Communism.

That's about the most nonsensical statement I ever heard concerning Jews or Communism. Many Jews in the early 20th century wer enthralled in Communism, this is well documented. And if the Jew Marx was not a "practicing" (just what the heck is that?) Jew, in other words, a spiritual one I suppose, then just what would the label 'jew" be concerning him if it wasn't ethnic or "racial" as you put it?


Quote
In fact there's links between Christianity and Communism.

I don't doubt that for a second. It is well known that the Reds have infiltrated the Church, but the Church is not in essence, communist. It is not necessarily a "communist" construct but the AntiChrist Bolshevists would appear to make it so.


Quote
There's enough anti-Semitic propaganda out there already without it creeping into this forum!

Oh Lord, here we go with the emotional outbursts and slanderous accusations of the big "A' to anyone who might be getting at the truth a little bit, especially when it concerns the master, er I mean Chosen race. I think you need to define just what "antisemitism" really is, because, I don't believe I fit the profile, whatever that is.

Besides, I could never really be a true "antisemite", some of my best friends are Arabs. ;D

The idea that ‘reds’ had infiltrated the church is mind-boggling as I mentioned examples from the 1600s, and the time of the Apostles.

I’ve no idea about the source of the Jewish encyclopaedia, however given your association with red infiltration as part of a conspiracy I would doubt the veracity of this book.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 09, 2013, 11:13:16 PM

You mean like the British Empire which wanted to conquer the entire world?
Tu quoque is a logical fallacy


But why is Germany so demonized for its imperialism even though Europe as a whole was imperialistic at the time? The British Empire and USSR were the most imperialistic, violent European powers there were at the time. But their atrocities get overlooked. But when Germany rises out of a dark corner and starts to kick their butts, everyone demonized Germany.
Because Britain didn't start WWI?


You mean like the British Empire and the USSR?
See above re: logical fallacies

You mean like the British Empire?
Ditto


Any different than the British Empire cutting off Indian peoples' thumbs and shooting them for protesting?

There's your problem there is comparing things that are somewhat similar and thinking they are the same.

Let's give a hypothetical.

I shoot at you and you shoot at me.

They are similar.

But lets look at motives. If you are shooting at me BECAUSE I just randomly chose you as a target then we are not doing the same thing.

Britain bombed Germany in WWII and Germany bombed Britain in WWII.

Germany started the war. Britain was fighting against Germany's aggression.

Britain had an empire. Motive was most often economical, and certainly they wished to spread Christainity. Also, certainly they often failed not to be cruel.

Germany wanted an empire to enslave and work to death slavs, and to exterminate Jews.

It of itself was cruel.

You should, as I note, read up on this because at the most superficial level you're drawing comparisons.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 09, 2013, 11:16:31 PM
Good points James, but you'll have a hard time convincing the Anglophiles that the British Crown was anything less than a divine instituion, they truly believe it was God's Will for the British empire to dominate almost a quater of the world's surface.

The sun truly never set on the British Empire at one time.

But those nasty ol evil Germans tried to take over the world with that little strip of land alongside the Polish corridor. ::)

Except its as different as chalk and cheese.

Let's try this another way. The US is a democracy. It has a history of racism, oppression of indigenous peoples, wars, etc. By your 'logic' therefore democracy is just a bad a system as communism which exhibits the same traits!

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: theo philosopher on April 09, 2013, 11:25:17 PM
Forgive me, but that's a very silly attitude. Germany began WWII with a plan to conquer the world - Hitler stated he wanted 'breathing space' for the master race; the German people.

You mean like the British Empire which wanted to conquer the entire world?

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Germany didn't just 'stand up for itself'. It didn't just seek redress for the Treaty of Versailles WHICH IT AGREED TO!

But why is Germany so demonized for its imperialism even though Europe as a whole was imperialistic at the time? The British Empire and USSR were the most imperialistic, violent European powers there were at the time. But their atrocities get overlooked. But when Germany rises out of a dark corner and starts to kick their butts, everyone demonized Germany.

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Even without the Holocaust Hitler was still evil. He rounded up and executed opposition groups, destroyed freedoms, etc....

You mean like the British Empire and the USSR?

Quote
And he was a war monger.

You mean like the British Empire?

Quote
He allied himself with Italy after Italy had used poison gas against civilians in Ethiopia.

Any different than the British Empire cutting off Indian peoples' thumbs and shooting them for protesting?
Good points James, but you'll have a hard time convincing the Anglophiles that the British Crown was anything less than a divine instituion, they truly believe it was God's Will for the British empire to dominate almost a quater of the world's surface.

The sun truly never set on the British Empire at one time.

But those nasty ol evil Germans tried to take over the world with that little strip of land alongside the Polish corridor. ::)

And North Africa, and France, and the United Kingdom, and Greece, and the Balkans, and Russia, etc.

The British Empire was wrong in how it treated its subjects. But it attempted to act like an empire, it attempted to rule over its subjects. Though wrong, that is what empires do. They beat the subjected peoples into submission until they make good subjects, but then builds them back up as subjects of the crown and gives them the same rights. Again, none of that is right, but that is what an empire does. Furthermore, the torture of Indians and other subjects was done when they acted against the crown, not because of their race. Again, it doesn't justify what the British did, but it's a far cry different from the Nazis.

What Germany did, however, was take a materialistic view of the world, namely that some races are superior to others, and attempted to eradicate the inferior races. It didn't try to build an empire where there were subjects, rather it tried to impose the German way of life on everyone by allowing the "superior race" to propagate while exterminating the inferior races.

The people who bore the brunt of this were the Jews. Lest you forget, these are the blood relatives of the Theotokos, as well as Jesus Christ. While they may be wrong in their rejection of Christ, remember that Paul gives us strict instructions on how to handle them. Killing them and vilifying them is not in those instructions.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 09, 2013, 11:32:01 PM
Sure it is, they even admit it themselves.


 From the Jewish Encyclopedia: ""Jews have been prominently identified with the modern Socialist movement from its very inception." "Scientific socialism," or what we call communism, says the Universal Jewish Encyclopedia in its article on socialism, "originated in the combination of Jewish Messianic feeling with German philosophy" 1 Marx, of course, was Jewish. But, just as important, Jews at all levels, from high financiers like the Warburgs, Schiffs and Rothschilds to rugged revolutionaries like Trotsky, Kamenev, Sverdlov and Zinoviev, made the success of communism possible.

Bolshevism would eventually become the Jewish cause.

I thought I'd deal with this separately as it’s misinformation, or at best incomplete sourcing.

On the issue of socialism in the Jewish Encyclopaedia; the article (found here http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13822-socialism) only mentions part of your quote.

The quote you’re drawing from seems to be from an as yet un-sourced opinion OF the Jewish Encyclopaedia, not the encyclopaedia itself (unless these are drawn from a myriad of different pages).  

The use of this evidence is to confuse “Jews” (as a people) with “Jews” as a faith.

Marx can be identified with being a Jew, ethnically, but not with Judaism, as he was a secularist Jew. I noted that there’s no link between Judaism and socialism. The article I cite says his family was converted to Lutheranism.

Likewise you’ve confused socialism with communism.

There’s nothing in that source to show that the Rothschilds supported socialism. Thus the statement is a conclusion based on speculation.

Big business favoured Nazism.

“Hitler's 1924 Munich trial yielded evidence that the Nazi Party received $20,000 from Nuremburg industrialists. The most interesting name from this period is that of Emil Kirdorf, who had earlier acted as conduit for financing German involvement in the Bolshevik Revolution.4 Kirdorfs role in financing Hitler was, in his own words:
In 1923 I came into contact for the first time with the National-Socialist movement .... I first heard the Fuehrer in the Essen Exhibition Hall. His clear exposition completely convinced and overwhelmed me. In 1927 I first met the Fuehrer personally. I travelled to Munich and there had a conversation with the Fuehrer in the Bruckmann home. During four and a half hours Adolf Hitler explained to me his programme in de tail. I then begged the Fuehrer to put together the lecture he had given me in the form of a pamphlet. I then distributed this pamphlet in my name in business and manufacturing circles.
Since then I have placed myself completely at the disposition of his movement, Shortly after our Munich conversation, and as a result of the pamphlet which the Fuehrer composed and I distributed, a number of meetings took place between the Fuehrer and leading personalities in the field of indus. try. For the last time before the taking over of power, the leaders of industry met in my house together with Adolf Hitler, Rudolf Hess, Hermann Goering and other leading personalities of the party.5”
http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/wall_street/chapter_07.htm

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 09, 2013, 11:34:15 PM

And North Africa, and France, and the United Kingdom, and Greece, and the Balkans, and Russia, etc.

The British Empire was wrong in how it treated its subjects. But it attempted to act like an empire, it attempted to rule over its subjects. Though wrong, that is what empires do. They beat the subjected peoples into submission until they make good subjects, but then builds them back up as subjects of the crown and gives them the same rights. Again, none of that is right, but that is what an empire does. Furthermore, the torture of Indians and other subjects was done when they acted against the crown, not because of their race. Again, it doesn't justify what the British did, but it's a far cry different from the Nazis.

What Germany did, however, was take a materialistic view of the world, namely that some races are superior to others, and attempted to eradicate the inferior races. It didn't try to build an empire where there were subjects, rather it tried to impose the German way of life on everyone by allowing the "superior race" to propagate while exterminating the inferior races.

The people who bore the brunt of this were the Jews. Lest you forget, these are the blood relatives of the Theotokos, as well as Jesus Christ. While they may be wrong in their rejection of Christ, remember that Paul gives us strict instructions on how to handle them. Killing them and vilifying them is not in those instructions.

Absolutely. Many empires have been brutal. The Roman empire saw the massacre of a great many peoples in its expansion.

However the Nazi empire was one based on extermination.

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 10, 2013, 12:31:48 AM

Let me ask you a question, do  you think God allowed the holocaust just to happen?
Do you know of anything that happens against God's Will?

I've heard that the Jews actually find God complicit in allowing it.
The Problem of Evil has been vexing Christianity for centuries too

The Jews have actually "judged" God.
How they deal with it is up to them.



By the way, did you read about Presidents Bush family involvement in the rise of the Nazis...?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: jmbejdl on April 10, 2013, 04:18:13 AM
I'm sometimes shocked and appalled at how anti-semitism still runs rampant in the Orthodox Church (and Roman Catholic Church, and just Europe in general) under the guise of "anti-Israel." One can be against Israel's policies without being against the Jews, downgrading the Holocaust, or demonizing an entire people group.

For one, Communism is and always will be a Christian heresy. It is not a Jewish construct by any stretch. Though Karl Marx was ethnically Jewish, he was an atheist as well as a strict materialist. He took the Christian social Gospel and removed God from the equation and instead instituted the collective, which is why it is a Christian heresy. The reason Communism is treated with these so-called "kid gloves" isn't because it's a "Jewish construct," but because most academics actually believe it's a good idea. I've had friends go so far as to say that a violent revolution is needed, along with the killing of political dissinters. That has nothing to do with Communism being Jewish, but everything to do with it being materialistic. Even neo-Marxism and post-Marxism have become softer on religious views, seeing religion not necessarily as an opiate, but something that can be used to transform the world into a collective.

As for Germans not knowing what was going on, the reality is they did (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/03/sunday-review/the-holocaust-just-got-more-shocking.html?pagewanted=all"). The Americans knew they were committing genocide against the Native Americans, but justified it under "Manifest Destiny." The Spaniards knew they were enslaving the Native populations in the New World, but justified it as prosperity. The English knew they were killing and murdering Africans, but they justified it as necessary. The Turks knew they were murdering Armenians, but the people justified it as in the nation's best interests. Likewise, the Germans knew that Jews were being used as slaves and even being killed, but they justified it as a cleansing. With some 42,500 Nazi camps throughout Europe, all meant for undesirables, there's no way the average German could plead ignorance to what the Nazis were doing.

Third, having German blood does not justify a defense of Germany. You have German blood, so what? Your genetic ancestry is quite irrelevant to the truth of the matter. If we all traced our genetic ancestry we would find that we descend from murderers, rapists, and genocidal maniacs. That is simply how the human race works. Our job isn't to defend our history and put a rose on it, but to correct the past mistakes and create a better future.

We live in a fallen world. Buying into nationalism or racism doesn't fix our problems. Trying to justify an evil act - such as the Holocaust - doesn't make things better. Yes, more focus is placed on Jews lost in the Holocaust, but that is because they made up nearly 50% of the victims. Regardless, all lives lost in this tragic event should not be downplayed or seen as a cause of their own demise. That is not the Christian approach to this matter. Rather, the Christian approach is to realize that we are all fallen away from God, that we are all murderers in our own way, and that we should seek to correct this error through Grace. Anything short will result in failure.
+ 1 (and that's from someone with more than a little German blood and at least 2 former NSDAP members in my immediate family). Thank goodness some people here have enough sense to oppose the nonsense I see being spouted from certain quarters. There is no justification for attempting to sweep the Nazi atrocities under the carpet, no matter whether our relatives were members of the party or victims of it (or both, as in my case).

James

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 10, 2013, 05:47:58 AM
+ 1 (and that's from someone with more than a little German blood and at least 2 former NSDAP members in my immediate family). Thank goodness some people here have enough sense to oppose the nonsense I see being spouted from certain quarters. There is no justification for attempting to sweep the Nazi atrocities under the carpet, no matter whether our relatives were members of the party or victims of it (or both, as in my case).

James



+1 more
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: mike on April 10, 2013, 06:11:35 AM
The US is a democracy.

I wouldn't say that. They laso wouldn't say that: http://thisnation.com/question/011.html
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 10, 2013, 06:30:28 AM
The US is a democracy.

I wouldn't say that. They laso wouldn't say that: http://thisnation.com/question/011.html

Firstly, your site confuses the issues of republics and democracies. A country can be both. Your site (had you read it) tentatively agrees that the US is a democracy (with some quibbles).
It says...
By popular usage, however, the word "democracy"  come to mean a form of government in which the government derives its power from the people and is accountable to them for the use of that power. In this sense the United States might accurately be called a democracy.
http://thisnation.com/question/011.html

Towards the end it reaffirms this "To the extent that the United States of America has moved away from its republican roots and become more "democratic,"

Thus not only is it a confused site, it disagrees with you. Thank you for citing it, though*

Democracy comes from the Greek 'people power' (dêmos kratos). There are variations of democracies. I live in one, yet the head of state is not democratically chosen; the Queen. Australia is thus NOT a republic, but a democracy. The United States IS a republic, but also a democracy.

Athens, the birthplace of democracy didn't have votes for women, but was still a democracy.

We have two houses of parliament, New Zealand (also a democracy) only has one. We are a federation (comprising 6 states), New Zealand is not a federation. Both countries are democracies.

There's much more variation than your website allows for.

It's generally accepted in our systems that we hand over powers to representatives and they run the government; but they are checked by the fact that they can be voted out; thus the people power

So aside from a site that in effect disagrees with you, this excursion still does not take away from the fact that even democracies make mistakes. And, by your logic makes them just as bad as dictatorships.

In effect if you assault someone, or use violence to defend yourself from assault, both instances you would be equally guilty - by your 'logic'.




*- and no doubt the US has moved away from the founding fathers - you don't have slavery, they did. You have votes for women, they didn't. You have more direct elections (although an 'electoral college' still exists). Property rights are not used to weigh up if you can vote. You can vote aged 18.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Punch on April 10, 2013, 10:15:27 AM
What Germany did, however, was take a materialistic view of the world, namely that some races are superior to others, and attempted to eradicate the inferior races. It didn't try to build an empire where there were subjects, rather it tried to impose the German way of life on everyone by allowing the "superior race" to propagate while exterminating the inferior races.

This is true.  The WWI Germans in Africa were colonial in the same manner as the British, although not as bad.  The British were all about getting what they could out of the place and then retreating back to England.  The Germans were trying to get out of Europe and most had no intention of going back.  The WWII Nazis, on the other hand, were into expanding Germany and ethnically cleansing the land as they moved in.  There was no attempt to coexist.  Anyone that escaped initial extermination would eventually get their turn.  And that included the Japanese.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: JamesR on April 10, 2013, 02:44:58 PM
...And that included the Japanese.

Just out of curiousity, would Germany have even been capable of taking on Japan, assuming that they had beat Europe? I don't think they had the Navy to match Japan's Navy, which, was probably the greatest at the time. I imagine they'd coexist in an uneasy relationship if the Axis won.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Virtual Paradise on April 10, 2013, 03:20:46 PM
"What Germany did, however, was take a materialistic view of the world, namely that some races are superior to others, and attempted to eradicate the inferior races. It didn't try to build an empire where there were subjects, rather it tried to impose the German way of life on everyone by allowing the "superior race" to propagate while exterminating the inferior races. "

People still being stuck on that? Hitler wasn't even a blond hair blue eyed german. Perhaps there is more than that.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 10, 2013, 05:03:07 PM
Quote
Germany started the war. Britain was fighting against Germany's aggression.

I call BS on this, the Anglo's were every bit responsible for getting the whole thing started, as a matter of fact, Briatin and France declared war on Germany first sticking their noses in a border dispute they had no business getting involved with even though they already had a big chunk of the globe already with their foot on the necks of millions of Africans and Asiatics.

WWII really came down to the Commonwealth's maintaining their global hegemony against the German upstarts who were becoming a major military and economic force that they felt threatened by. I have no delusions that those snooty, protty, Englishmun had any more intentions than securing their financial and geographical stronghold around the world at the expense of exploiting millions of "untermench".

These British descendant countries crack me up, accussing the Germans or anyone else of being "aggressive" or somehow feeling "superior" to the other races or ethnics, tell me, was there anyone else more arrogant and condescending around the planet than the British?

All you Anglophiles really need to look deeper into the real causes of both world wars in Europe.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: mike on April 10, 2013, 05:07:18 PM
Briatin and France declared war on Germany first sticking their noses in a border dispute they had no business getting involved

They were obliged by treaties with Poland.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 10, 2013, 05:21:03 PM
Quote
Germany wanted an empire to enslave and work to death slavs, and to exterminate Jews.

Did Germany ever have "slaves"? Did Britain? Did the Untied States?

Yea, let's talk slaves here, let's talk about how many other peoples the U.S. and Britain exterminated to build their empires.

The Germans considered their own people there biggest and best asset while the U.S. still had basically a caste system and Jim Crowe Laws around the time of the war while the British were practicing their own extermination techniques in Ireland and India.

How do you even know what the German agenda was prior to WWII? From what I've read over the years, the Brits and Frogs were doing their damnest to keep the Reich mired in a economic depression and keep Germany from ever recovering from the Great War with all of the ridiculous provisions of that ludicrous treaty at Versailles.

At any rate, the Anglos had their own version of "enslavement".
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 10, 2013, 05:22:54 PM
Briatin and France declared war on Germany first sticking their noses in a border dispute they had no business getting involved

They were obliged by treaties with Poland.
In which they had no business. Hitler knew this.

They egged on the Polish and dared the Riech to defy them.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: JamesR on April 10, 2013, 05:28:49 PM

You mean like the British Empire which wanted to conquer the entire world?
Tu quoque is a logical fallacy

But it's valid to my point; I'm not defending the badness of Nazi Germany. They are 100% guilty for that. But I'm trying to remove the unnecessary guilt that is placed upon them by people--especially the UK--who were doing the exact same thing. If we are going to demonize Germany this much, then we should do the same to the British Empire for their imperialism and atrocities against mankind.

Quote
Because Britain didn't start WWI?

They still contributed to it. No one person or nation "started" World War I; nationalism started the war--several European nations allowing tension to build up for too long started the war.

Quote
There's your problem there is comparing things that are somewhat similar and thinking they are the same.

There is no relevant difference. Nazism persecuted, imprisoned and/or executed people for opposing the state. The British Empire persecuted, imprisoned and/or executed Indian people for protesting the Crown or threatening their economy by producing better cotton. I don't see a relevant difference. Likewise, the USSR was the very worst, because in many cases, they imprisoned, persecuted and/or executed people for no good reason other than the Bolsheviks' paranoia and Stalin's ruthlessness. At least the British and Germans were doing it for a reason.

Quote
Britain bombed Germany in WWII and Germany bombed Britain in WWII.

You mean after Britain stripped Germany's pockets dry, allowed them to become impoverished and allowed many of their civilians to starve to death in order to fund Britain's massive empire?

Quote
Germany started the war. Britain was fighting against Germany's aggression.

I say Britain started the war for putting Germany in such a rough spot that violence was their only option. Besides, initially, Germany was only invading countries that had originally belonged to them. And the British Empire was the most aggressive force on the face of the Earth at the time.

Quote
Britain had an empire. Motive was most often economical, and certainly they wished to spread Christainity. Also, certainly they often failed not to be cruel.

Quote
Germany wanted an empire to enslave and work to death slavs, and to exterminate Jews.

Hitler wanted an empire to enslave and work to death the Slavs and exterminate Jews  ;) Many Germans just wanted to rise above the shackles that Britain and France put on them after the Great War.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Cognomen on April 10, 2013, 05:33:30 PM
So we're going with this [the Polish Menace theory] now:

(http://us-mg6.mail.yahoo.com/ya/download?mid=2_0_0_1_3255471_AE9K2kIAACfoUWXavAEkYUb8tyU&pid=2&fid=Inbox&inline=1)

Edit: Computer skills fail.  Nevermind.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: JamesR on April 10, 2013, 05:34:59 PM
Quote
Germany wanted an empire to enslave and work to death slavs, and to exterminate Jews.

Did Germany ever have "slaves"?

Nope :)

Quote
Did Britain?

Yup, and then after it was abolished, they had forced labour in their colonies which was almost equal to slavery. Also fair to mention that Russia had serfdom until the Bolsheviks--where it was then replaced by forced labour at the gulags. United States of America had African slaves as well as overworked Mexican labourers on their farms.

The Germans though? I honestly can't think of anything similar...
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on April 10, 2013, 06:20:58 PM
Quote
Germany wanted an empire to enslave and work to death slavs, and to exterminate Jews.

Did Germany ever have "slaves"?

Nope :)

Quote
Did Britain?

Yup, and then after it was abolished, they had forced labour in their colonies which was almost equal to slavery. Also fair to mention that Russia had serfdom until the Bolsheviks--where it was then replaced by forced labour at the gulags. United States of America had African slaves as well as overworked Mexican labourers on their farms.

The Germans though? I honestly can't think of anything similar...

James--Couple of points.

Russia abolished serfdom in 1861 by Tsar Alexander II, who was called The Liberator for that reason.

All farm labor was back-breaking hard for all concerned, not just the farm hands. It is true that a few rich farmers did not work so hard, but most farmers did, with or without hired hands. If they did not have the latter, the family members helped.

Regarding slavery, all societies had them at one time or another. Classic slavery is still going on the East Africa (mainly Sudan) and the Arabian Peninsula. White slavery (prostitution) is endemic today.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Punch on April 10, 2013, 06:50:24 PM

...And that included the Japanese.

Just out of curiousity, would Germany have even been capable of taking on Japan, assuming that they had beat Europe? I don't think they had the Navy to match Japan's Navy, which, was probably the greatest at the time. I imagine they'd coexist in an uneasy relationship if the Axis won.

No.  You have no idea of where the Germans were when it came to technology.  Both the US and the USSR were using German scientists and German technology well after the war.  IF the Germans had won the war, we would have to assume that they developed nuclear weapons before we did.  The war with Japan would have ended the same way, just with a different victor.  On the other hand, IF the Germans won the war, we could pretty well assume that they got rid of Hitler, so who knows what would have happened.  They may have coexisted with a lot of people.  There is a difference between Germans and Nazis, and not ALL Germans were Nazis.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 10, 2013, 08:07:57 PM
What Germany did, however, was take a materialistic view of the world, namely that some races are superior to others, and attempted to eradicate the inferior races. It didn't try to build an empire where there were subjects, rather it tried to impose the German way of life on everyone by allowing the "superior race" to propagate while exterminating the inferior races.

This is true.  The WWI Germans in Africa were colonial in the same manner as the British, although not as bad.  The British were all about getting what they could out of the place and then retreating back to England.  The Germans were trying to get out of Europe and most had no intention of going back.  The WWII Nazis, on the other hand, were into expanding Germany and ethnically cleansing the land as they moved in.  There was no attempt to coexist.  Anyone that escaped initial extermination would eventually get their turn.  And that included the Japanese.

The Germans in Africa (German South West Africa - now Namibia) were involved in the genoicde of African tribes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_and_Namaqua_Genocide

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 10, 2013, 08:15:46 PM
Yup, and then after it was abolished, they had forced labour in their colonies which was almost equal to slavery. Also fair to mention that Russia had serfdom until the Bolsheviks--where it was then replaced by forced labour at the gulags. United States of America had African slaves as well as overworked Mexican labourers on their farms.

The Germans though? I honestly can't think of anything similar...

Reading first, commenting second is a process I would recommend.

Germanic tribes had slavery.

IF you want to compare "Germany" (which only existed as a nation state after 1870) with other nations then that of itself would be a false comparison given its very recent history.

Spain had slaves even when ruled by the German Hapsburg family

Germany certainly had slave labour during WWII.

What do you think of this article:
THE BLACK SLAVES OF PRUSSIA
http://anglicanhistory.org/weston/slaves1918.html
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 10, 2013, 08:17:37 PM
They still contributed to it.

Therefore if someone attacks your family and you fight back, you're just as guilty, because you're 'contributing to it'.

 ???

By your logic a person who attempts to murder someone, and that person - the victim who fights back, are equally guilty.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 10, 2013, 08:21:16 PM
Quote
Germany started the war. Britain was fighting against Germany's aggression.

I call BS on this, the Anglo's were every bit responsible for getting the whole thing started, as a matter of fact, Briatin and France declared war on Germany first sticking their noses in a border dispute they had no business getting involved with even though they already had a big chunk of the globe already with their foot on the necks of millions of Africans and Asiatics.

Germany declared war by invading Poland - you missed that.

Briatin and (more reluctantly) France declared war on Germany AS THEY HAD PROMISED POLAND should Geramny attack Poland.

And Germany did this. Germany had already shown that they were aggressive. They had been given the German-speaking areas of Czechoslovakia. And they weren't just after this, they took all of Cezechoslovakia.

That is a blatant act of agrression that had NOTHING TO DO with righting wrongs about Versailles because Czechoslovakia was NEVER part of Germany.

Your idea of history is like ignoring the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and only starting off with the US declaration of war on Japan

It's one of the strangest editing of events I've ever seen!
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 10, 2013, 08:36:50 PM
What caused Hitler's hate towards the Jews than he wondered around to kill 5+ millions of them ?

Well before he ever took power, Hitler had already annouced his hatred of the Jews in Mein Kampf

He blamed them for all the world's ills, through history.

He confused ideas of race, and using simple analogies (just like we breed horses for different purposes, people are in different 'breeds' for different purposes) claimed that Jews existed as a grouping of humankind that existed as a lower form of human than the 'Aryan' type.

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Sinful Hypocrite on April 10, 2013, 09:05:35 PM
They still contributed to it.

Therefore if someone attacks your family and you fight back, you're just as guilty, because you're 'contributing to it'.

 ???

By your logic a person who attempts to murder someone, and that person - the victim who fights back, are equally guilty.

This is an issue that I have been thinking about recently. Of course you are not wrong, but there are other views of this problem.

School children are told when they defend themselves that they are guilty too because they should not finish what someone else started.
And that two wrongs do not make a right. But they see that the grown ups are hypocrites about these issues when they see people Killing and fighting on the news every day.

Governments are guilty of the same thing for other lesser events than you mentioned, that have started wars , such as vietnam, Iraq more recently.


Feuds between family or friends go on for generations because each time vengeance is sought for the wronged party.

Since we are here for our faith as Orthodox, we must also use scripture to guide these issues.

Matt 5

39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

Luke 6
Love for Enemies

27“But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Of course these things are impossible for mankind most of the time, but we are supposed to try as hard as we can. And when we fail, to acknowledge our sins and repent.

However most men I know want to say how we are right and they were wrong. Not wanting to admit your mistakes means you are doomed to repeat them and worse than that, you are not forgiven.

IMHO
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 11, 2013, 12:10:35 AM
This is an issue that I have been thinking about recently. Of course you are not wrong, but there are other views of this problem.

School children are told when they defend themselves that they are guilty too because they should not finish what someone else started.
And that two wrongs do not make a right. But they see that the grown ups are hypocrites about these issues when they see people Killing and fighting on the news every day.

Governments are guilty of the same thing for other lesser events than you mentioned, that have started wars , such as vietnam, Iraq more recently.


Feuds between family or friends go on for generations because each time vengeance is sought for the wronged party.

Since we are here for our faith as Orthodox, we must also use scripture to guide these issues.

Matt 5

39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

Luke 6
Love for Enemies

27“But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Of course these things are impossible for mankind most of the time, but we are supposed to try as hard as we can. And when we fail, to acknowledge our sins and repent.

However most men I know want to say how we are right and they were wrong. Not wanting to admit your mistakes means you are doomed to repeat them and worse than that, you are not forgiven.

IMHO

I am against violence and think it's a sin even in self-defence. HOWEVER I may well defend myself, regardless (as I amy not achieve my ideal). I would be even more inclinded to defend my family.

And, a person killed by a murderer, or a person killed by someone defending themselves still results in a tragic loss of human life.

I have no doubt about killing being wrong.

HOWEVER I am using the 'logic' of several people here to develop their own argument further.

They are, for e.g. equating Britain's defence of itself as being as bad as Germany's attack on Britain.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 11, 2013, 01:29:52 AM
To those that think Germany never had slavery:

"Serfdom replaced slavery in medieval Germany."
http://www.britannica.com/blackhistory/article-24160

And serfdom is not far-removed from slavery.

Australia boasts that we never had slavery. Strictly speaking this is true. But we were founded on convict labour (a type of slavery). Also, with force or false promises, Kanakas from New Caledonia were brought to far northern Australia to get the sugar industry going. Their conditions weren't far off slavery either. When Australia became a nation (1901) most of these people were sent back, even though they'd established themselves here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanaka_(Pacific_Island_worker)#Australia

One has to be careful about terminology. It would be very easy for me to boast Australia has had no slavery (whereas Germany has), but it would be misleading because of the facts I've just stated.

To say Germany has had no slavery is even more false.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Velsigne on April 11, 2013, 03:00:14 AM
Quote
Germany started the war. Britain was fighting against Germany's aggression.

I call BS on this, the Anglo's were every bit responsible for getting the whole thing started, as a matter of fact, Briatin and France declared war on Germany first sticking their noses in a border dispute they had no business getting involved with even though they already had a big chunk of the globe already with their foot on the necks of millions of Africans and Asiatics.

WWII really came down to the Commonwealth's maintaining their global hegemony against the German upstarts who were becoming a major military and economic force that they felt threatened by. I have no delusions that those snooty, protty, Englishmun had any more intentions than securing their financial and geographical stronghold around the world at the expense of exploiting millions of "untermench".

These British descendant countries crack me up, accussing the Germans or anyone else of being "aggressive" or somehow feeling "superior" to the other races or ethnics, tell me, was there anyone else more arrogant and condescending around the planet than the British?

All you Anglophiles really need to look deeper into the real causes of both world wars in Europe.

I'm not sure why you seem to not want to discuss Germany, specifically the topic of Hitler's policy towards Jews, and instead bring up the failings of England.  Most would fault England in that they pursued a foolhardy plan of appeasement far too long under the auspices of Neville Chamberlain.  Hitler was blatantly re-arming Germany, even participated in the war in Spain with aircraft and tried out new weaponry there, which was a direct contravention of the Versailles Treaty.   There were other actions he took in defiance of the VT, And yet it was allowed to continue on until full war broke out.  England was pretty well strapped after the Great War as well and wasn't in too much of a hurry to rush off to war again. 

They had every reason to be concerned about a Germany led by Hitler, who was a madman, breaking rules left and right, yet they tried to stay the course and appease him until it was too late.

And one could debate whether the VT was unfairly harsh and overly reactionary, but it wasn't just the Brits imposing that. 


Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Velsigne on April 11, 2013, 03:08:01 AM

To say Germany has had no slavery is even more false.


Part of the Jews, who were able bodied, young enough, or female with no children, were put into slavery and worked to death.  Arbeit Macht Frei.  Some of those companies that used their labor still exist today, and they had links to American business interest.  There were other work camps as well. 

Once they got their program ramped up and were shipping Jews in livestock cars across Europe to the major camps, they learned early on to disposed of women with children first, because once they tried to separate women from their children, the women rioted.  It was more efficient to just shuffle them off together and kill them.

One camp actually had a White Cross flag hanging above the gas chamber. 
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: JamesR on April 11, 2013, 03:13:12 AM
No offense, but those Jews get waay too much attention. Homosexuals have been targeted since the dawn of man and were victims of the Holocaust as well, Native Americans suffered genocide, enslavement and had nearly their entire continent stolen from them, the native inhabitants of what is now known as Latin America were colonized, enslaved into forced labour and suffered genocide in many cases, millions of Asian people in China and the Philippines were tortured, raped and murdered by the Japanese--who I consider to have been even more barbaric than Germany. Why is it that the Jews get so much special attention and get an entire nation out of it in the end at the expense of another innocent population (the Palestinians) who did nothing to them?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 11, 2013, 03:33:55 AM
No offense, but those Jews get waay too much attention. Homosexuals have been targeted since the dawn of man and were victims of the Holocaust as well, Native Americans suffered genocide, enslavement and had nearly their entire continent stolen from them, the native inhabitants of what is now known as Latin America were colonized, enslaved into forced labour and suffered genocide in many cases, millions of Asian people in China and the Philippines were tortured, raped and murdered by the Japanese--who I consider to have been even more barbaric than Germany. Why is it that the Jews get so much special attention and get an entire nation out of it in the end at the expense of another innocent population (the Palestinians) who did nothing to them?

well your posts seem to show an attempt of drawing attention from them with a relativist defence of Hitler!
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Virtual Paradise on April 11, 2013, 03:37:51 AM
What caused Hitler's hate towards the Jews than he wondered around to kill 5+ millions of them ?

Well before he ever took power, Hitler had already annouced his hatred of the Jews in Mein Kampf

He blamed them for all the world's ills, through history.

He confused ideas of race, and using simple analogies (just like we breed horses for different purposes, people are in different 'breeds' for different purposes) claimed that Jews existed as a grouping of humankind that existed as a lower form of human than the 'Aryan' type.



He did that earlier than "Mein Kampf" , after the treaty of Versaille, through a written letter in September 16, 1919.

Quote
Dear Herr Gemlich,
The danger posed by Jewry for our people today finds expression in the undeniable aversion of wide sections of our people. The cause of this aversion is not to be found in a clear recognition of the consciously or unconsciously systematic and pernicious effect of the Jews as a totality upon our nation. Rather, it arises mostly from personal contact and from the personal impression which the individual Jew leaves--almost always an unfavorable one. For this reason, antisemitism is too easily characterized as a mere emotional phenomenon. And yet this is incorrect. Antisemitism as a political movement may not and cannot be defined by emotional impulses, but by recognition of the facts. The facts are these: First, Jewry is absolutely a race and not a religious association. Even the Jews never designate themselves as Jewish Germans, Jewish Poles, or Jewish Americans but always as German, Polish, or American Jews. Jews have never yet adopted much more than the language of the foreign nations among whom they live. A German who is forced to make use of the French language in France, Italian in Italy, Chinese in China does not thereby become a Frenchman, Italian, or Chinaman. It's the same with the Jew who lives among us and is forced to make use of the German language. He does not thereby become a German. Neither does the Mosaic faith, so important for the survival of this race, settle the question of whether someone is a Jew or non-Jew. There is scarcely a race whose members belong exclusively to just one definite religion.

Through thousands of years of the closest kind of inbreeding, Jews in general have maintained their race and their peculiarities far more distinctly than many of the peoples among whom they have lived. And thus comes the fact that there lives amongst us a non- German, alien race which neither wishes nor is able to sacrifice its racial character or to deny its feeling, thinking, and striving. Nevertheless, it possesses all the political rights we do. If the ethos of the Jews is revealed in the purely material realm, it is even clearer in their thinking and striving. Their dance around the golden calf is becoming a merciless struggle for all those possessions we prize most highly on earth.

The value of the individual is no longer decided by his character or by the significance of his achievements for the totality but exclusively by the size of his fortune, by his money.

The loftiness of a nation is no longer to be measured by the sum of its moral and spiritual powers, but rather by the wealth of its material possessions.

This thinking and striving after money and power, and the feelings that go along with it, serve the purposes of the Jew who is unscrupulous in the choice of methods and pitiless in their employment. In autocratically ruled states he whines for the favor of "His Majesty" and misuses it like a leech fastened upon the nations. In democracies he vies for the favor of the masses, cringes before the "majesty of the people," and recognizes only the majesty of money.

He destroys the character of princes with byzantine flattery, national pride (the strength of a people), with ridicule and shameless breeding to depravity. His method of battle is that public opinion which is never expressed in the press but which is nonetheless managed and falsified by it. His power is the power of money, which multiplies in his hands effortlessly and endlessly through interest, and which forces peoples under the most dangerous of yokes. Its golden glitter, so attractive in the beginning, conceals the ultimately tragic consequences. Everything men strive after as a higher goal, be it religion, socialism, democracy, is to the Jew only means to an end, the way to satisfy his lust for gold and domination.

In his effects and consequences he is like a racial tuberculosis of the nations.

The deduction from all this is the following: an antisemitism based on purely emotional grounds will find its ultimate expression in the form of the pogrom.[1] An antisemitism based on reason, however, must lead to systematic legal combatting and elimination of the privileges of the Jews, that which distinguishes the Jews from the other aliens who live among us (an Aliens Law). The ultimate objective [of such legislation] must, however, be the irrevocable removal of the Jews in general.

For both these ends a government of national strength, not of national weakness, is necessary.

The Republic in Germany owes its birth not to the uniform national will of our people but the sly exploitation of a series of circumstances which found general expression in a deep, universal dissatisfaction. These circumstances however were independent of the form of the state and are still operative today. Indeed, more so now than before. Thus, a great portion of our people recognizes that a changed state-form cannot in itself change our situation. For that it will take a rebirth of the moral and spiritual powers of the nation.

And this rebirth cannot be initiated by a state leadership of irresponsible majorities, influenced by certain party dogmas, an irresponsible press, or internationalist phrases and slogans. [It requires] instead the ruthless installation of nationally minded leadership personalities with an inner sense of responsibility.

But these facts deny to the Republic the essential inner support of the nation's spiritual forces. And thus today's state leaders are compelled to seek support among those who draw the exclusive benefits of the new formation of German conditions, and who for this reason were the driving force behind the revolution--the Jews. Even though (as various statements of the leading personalities reveal) today's leaders fully realized the danger of Jewry, they (seeking their own advantage) accepted the readily proffered support of the Jews and also returned the favor. And this pay-off consisted not only in every possible favoring of Jewry, but above all in the hindrance of the struggle of the betrayed people against its defrauders, that is in the repression of the antisemitic movement.

Respectfully,
Adolf Hitler


Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Virtual Paradise on April 11, 2013, 03:39:29 AM
No offense, but those Jews get waay too much attention. Homosexuals have been targeted since the dawn of man and were victims of the Holocaust as well, Native Americans suffered genocide, enslavement and had nearly their entire continent stolen from them, the native inhabitants of what is now known as Latin America were colonized, enslaved into forced labour and suffered genocide in many cases, millions of Asian people in China and the Philippines were tortured, raped and murdered by the Japanese--who I consider to have been even more barbaric than Germany. Why is it that the Jews get so much special attention and get an entire nation out of it in the end at the expense of another innocent population (the Palestinians) who did nothing to them?

well your posts seem to show an attempt of drawing attention from them with a relativist defence of Hitler!

Isn't limiting the Holocaust to the Jews alone a discrimination?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: jmbejdl on April 11, 2013, 04:07:05 AM
Quote
Germany wanted an empire to enslave and work to death slavs, and to exterminate Jews.

Did Germany ever have "slaves"?

Nope :)


Are you quite sure about that? You see to my mind being imprisoned in a camp and forced into the dangerous work of making ammunition for no pay is pretty much the definition of slavery, really no different from Roman slavery in the mines, for instance. Not only did my grandfather (German) guard such a place but my grandmother and her sisters (stateless Slavs) were confined to such a place. Are you really willing to stick your neck out and say Germany never had slavery, because I'm pretty confident that I can prove to you that they did as recently as the 1940s.

James
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 11, 2013, 04:58:08 AM
Quote
Germany wanted an empire to enslave and work to death slavs, and to exterminate Jews.

Did Germany ever have "slaves"?

Nope :)


Are you quite sure about that? You see to my mind being imprisoned in a camp and forced into the dangerous work of making ammunition for no pay is pretty much the definition of slavery, really no different from Roman slavery in the mines, for instance. Not only did my grandfather (German) guard such a place but my grandmother and her sisters (stateless Slavs) were confined to such a place. Are you really willing to stick your neck out and say Germany never had slavery, because I'm pretty confident that I can prove to you that they did as recently as the 1940s.

James

If we re-badge them as 'guest workers' then we can pretend they're well-paid workers
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 11, 2013, 04:19:09 PM
Quote
Germany declared war by invading Poland - you missed that.

Again, someone didn't pay attention in history class.......Britain and France declared war on Germany, not the other way around.

"The usual claim is that Germany started WWII by invading Poland. That is war propaganda. It wasn't even called a world war until after the US entered into it which brought in Japan's war with China which gave the war a global scope. So the most we can address with the invasion of Poland is war in Europe.

So was it Germany's invasion of Poland that started the general war in Europe? No. It was Britain and France declaring a state of war existed with Germany which did that. Germany did not declare war on Britain and France. Italy did not get into the war until Britain and France declared a state of war existed with Germany.

One excuse is Britain and France had a mutual defense treaty with Poland which they had to honor.


The first point is Russia also invaded Poland but Britain and France did not declare war on Russia. So the treaty was selectively honored at best.
 The second point is honoring the treaty, like signing the treaty, was completely voluntary. No one forced them to sign it or to honor it and clearly no one could have forced them to do either.

The third point is, although the intention to create such a treaty was announced in the Spring of 1939 it was in only signed eight days before the invasion of Poland. That is skin of the teeth to have it as a cheap propaganda excuse.

The fourth point is, Britain and France based their war on Germany solely upon Germany declining to obey the British ultimatum to leave Poland. The treaty was not identified at the time. It is not reasonable to blame a country for starting a war when, as a sovereign nation, it rationally declined to have its actions dictated by other countries.

But if they had not honored the treaty they would not have been taken seriously again, thought to have no honor, etc. These are all the usual excuses but as we have seen over the centuries these are ways to excite youth to war. When war is not in a country's interest we know they emphasize statesmanship in avoiding war.

In 1939 territorial claims were an accepted justification for war. Both Russia and Germany invaded Poland to reclaim land lost at Versailles as a consequence of WWI. Poland was a small landlocked country before the war. The victors in WWI took it upon themselves to force Russians and Germans to become Poles. In fact after WWII Russia kept the land it retook. What Germany took was given back to Poland. On top of that, to compensate for the land and people kept by Russia, even more Germans and land was given to Poland. The point being if invasion and conquest was a cause for the war it was forgotten after the war. "


http://www.giwersworld.org/wwii/wwii-summ.phtml
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 11, 2013, 04:34:11 PM
To those that think Germany never had slavery:

"Serfdom replaced slavery in medieval Germany."
http://www.britannica.com/blackhistory/article-24160

And serfdom is not far-removed from slavery.

Australia boasts that we never had slavery. Strictly speaking this is true. But we were founded on convict labour (a type of slavery). Also, with force or false promises, Kanakas from New Caledonia were brought to far northern Australia to get the sugar industry going. Their conditions weren't far off slavery either. When Australia became a nation (1901) most of these people were sent back, even though they'd established themselves here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanaka_(Pacific_Island_worker)#Australia

One has to be careful about terminology. It would be very easy for me to boast Australia has had no slavery (whereas Germany has), but it would be misleading because of the facts I've just stated.

To say Germany has had no slavery is even more false.

Every country in Europe at one time since Medieval times employed in "serfdom"" which meant different things in each distinct nation in which it was practiced. For many of the poor, it was for their very survival and even flourished by it.


You can call serdom whatever you want but at the end of the day, you can't call it slavery. Not like slavery was practiced in the British Empire or the U.S., nobody in Europe's "serfdom's" were snatched out of their indigenous lands, transported and sold off or auctioned to the highest bidder and forced into a life of slave labor under the thumb of their "master" for the rest of their natural lives.

Germany, as long as it has been a nation, has never engaged in this practice.

You're "serfdom" argument is fallacious or weak at best.

Keep trying.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: mike on April 11, 2013, 04:38:26 PM
Every country in Europe at one time since Medieval times employed in "serfdom"" which meant different things in each distinct nation in which it was practiced.

Quote
Germany, as long as it has been a nation, has never engaged in this practice.

Logical conclusion: Germany is not in Europe.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 11, 2013, 04:48:04 PM
They still contributed to it.

Therefore if someone attacks your family and you fight back, you're just as guilty, because you're 'contributing to it'.

 ???

By your logic a person who attempts to murder someone, and that person - the victim who fights back, are equally guilty.
Many of the Germans believed they were fighting back against a system that was trying to murder Germany.

Between the Zionist backed Anglos in the West and the commie Bolsheviks in the East, they had a case.

You have no idea what was going on in post WWI Germany and the Weimar regime was one of the most corrupt and inept regimes in Europe. something had to give eventually.If you look back at history, Hitler might've saved all of Western  Europe from the Communist threat.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 11, 2013, 04:49:28 PM
Every country in Europe at one time since Medieval times employed in "serfdom"" which meant different things in each distinct nation in which it was practiced.

Quote
Germany, as long as it has been a nation, has never engaged in this practice.

Logical conclusion: Germany is not in Europe.
Logical conclusion: Germany never employed slavery.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Jason.Wike on April 11, 2013, 04:55:07 PM
Well, someone is certainly smoking pot.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 11, 2013, 05:02:09 PM
Quote
Germany started the war. Britain was fighting against Germany's aggression.

I call BS on this, the Anglo's were every bit responsible for getting the whole thing started, as a matter of fact, Briatin and France declared war on Germany first sticking their noses in a border dispute they had no business getting involved with even though they already had a big chunk of the globe already with their foot on the necks of millions of Africans and Asiatics.

WWII really came down to the Commonwealth's maintaining their global hegemony against the German upstarts who were becoming a major military and economic force that they felt threatened by. I have no delusions that those snooty, protty, Englishmun had any more intentions than securing their financial and geographical stronghold around the world at the expense of exploiting millions of "untermench".

These British descendant countries crack me up, accussing the Germans or anyone else of being "aggressive" or somehow feeling "superior" to the other races or ethnics, tell me, was there anyone else more arrogant and condescending around the planet than the British?

All you Anglophiles really need to look deeper into the real causes of both world wars in Europe.

I'm not sure why you seem to not want to discuss Germany, specifically the topic of Hitler's policy towards Jews, and instead bring up the failings of England.  Most would fault England in that they pursued a foolhardy plan of appeasement far too long under the auspices of Neville Chamberlain.  Hitler was blatantly re-arming Germany, even participated in the war in Spain with aircraft and tried out new weaponry there, which was a direct contravention of the Versailles Treaty.   There were other actions he took in defiance of the VT, And yet it was allowed to continue on until full war broke out.  England was pretty well strapped after the Great War as well and wasn't in too much of a hurry to rush off to war again. 

They had every reason to be concerned about a Germany led by Hitler, who was a madman, breaking rules left and right, yet they tried to stay the course and appease him until it was too late.

And one could debate whether the VT was unfairly harsh and overly reactionary, but it wasn't just the Brits imposing that. 



Because I believe if it wasn't for the protty, freemasons in England meddeling in Germany's affairs and competeing with them for economic domination, even starting a war with them, then we wouldn't even be talking about all the horrors that ensued. the only "rules" that the "madman" Hitler broke were the ones thrusted upon Germany by the group in London hellbent on keeping their status quo of world domination and British/Anglo supremacy on the global scene.

Who was Neville Chamberlain even stick his nose in affairs between Poland and Germany to begin with?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 11, 2013, 05:03:02 PM
Well, someone is certainly smoking pot.
Good stuff huh?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on April 11, 2013, 05:51:46 PM


Are Southerners and Yankees separate nationalities?



They once were; USA/CSA...
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: mike on April 11, 2013, 06:22:28 PM
From the Jewish Encyclopedia: ""Jews have been prominently identified with the modern Socialist movement from its very inception." "Scientific socialism," or what we call communism, says the Universal Jewish Encyclopedia in its article on socialism, "originated in the combination of Jewish Messianic feeling with German philosophy" 1 Marx, of course, was Jewish. But, just as important, Jews at all levels, from high financiers like the Warburgs, Schiffs and Rothschilds to rugged revolutionaries like Trotsky, Kamenev, Sverdlov and Zinoviev, made the success of communism possible.

Source of this quote. You have 48 hours to provide it.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Jason.Wike on April 11, 2013, 06:34:43 PM
Well, someone is certainly smoking pot.
Good stuff huh?

I don't know, I've never had any kind of drugs in my life.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 11, 2013, 07:07:19 PM
From the Jewish Encyclopedia: ""Jews have been prominently identified with the modern Socialist movement from its very inception." "Scientific socialism," or what we call communism, says the Universal Jewish Encyclopedia in its article on socialism, "originated in the combination of Jewish Messianic feeling with German philosophy" 1 Marx, of course, was Jewish. But, just as important, Jews at all levels, from high financiers like the Warburgs, Schiffs and Rothschilds to rugged revolutionaries like Trotsky, Kamenev, Sverdlov and Zinoviev, made the success of communism possible.

Source of this quote. You have 48 hours to provide it.
Jewish Activists
Created Communism
By Rev. Ted Pike
6-12-7


http://rense.com/general76/commun.htm

Satisfied?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 11, 2013, 07:12:39 PM
What caused Hitler's hate towards the Jews than he wondered around to kill 5+ millions of them ?

Well before he ever took power, Hitler had already annouced his hatred of the Jews in Mein Kampf

He blamed them for all the world's ills, through history.

He confused ideas of race, and using simple analogies (just like we breed horses for different purposes, people are in different 'breeds' for different purposes) claimed that Jews existed as a grouping of humankind that existed as a lower form of human than the 'Aryan' type.



He did that earlier than "Mein Kampf" , after the treaty of Versaille, through a written letter in September 16, 1919.

Quote
Dear Herr Gemlich,
The danger posed by Jewry for our people today finds expression in the undeniable aversion of wide sections of our people. The cause of this aversion is not to be found in a clear recognition of the consciously or unconsciously systematic and pernicious effect of the Jews as a totality upon our nation. Rather, it arises mostly from personal contact and from the personal impression which the individual Jew leaves--almost always an unfavorable one. For this reason, antisemitism is too easily characterized as a mere emotional phenomenon. And yet this is incorrect. Antisemitism as a political movement may not and cannot be defined by emotional impulses, but by recognition of the facts. The facts are these: First, Jewry is absolutely a race and not a religious association. Even the Jews never designate themselves as Jewish Germans, Jewish Poles, or Jewish Americans but always as German, Polish, or American Jews. Jews have never yet adopted much more than the language of the foreign nations among whom they live. A German who is forced to make use of the French language in France, Italian in Italy, Chinese in China does not thereby become a Frenchman, Italian, or Chinaman. It's the same with the Jew who lives among us and is forced to make use of the German language. He does not thereby become a German. Neither does the Mosaic faith, so important for the survival of this race, settle the question of whether someone is a Jew or non-Jew. There is scarcely a race whose members belong exclusively to just one definite religion.

Through thousands of years of the closest kind of inbreeding, Jews in general have maintained their race and their peculiarities far more distinctly than many of the peoples among whom they have lived. And thus comes the fact that there lives amongst us a non- German, alien race which neither wishes nor is able to sacrifice its racial character or to deny its feeling, thinking, and striving. Nevertheless, it possesses all the political rights we do. If the ethos of the Jews is revealed in the purely material realm, it is even clearer in their thinking and striving. Their dance around the golden calf is becoming a merciless struggle for all those possessions we prize most highly on earth.

The value of the individual is no longer decided by his character or by the significance of his achievements for the totality but exclusively by the size of his fortune, by his money.

The loftiness of a nation is no longer to be measured by the sum of its moral and spiritual powers, but rather by the wealth of its material possessions.

This thinking and striving after money and power, and the feelings that go along with it, serve the purposes of the Jew who is unscrupulous in the choice of methods and pitiless in their employment. In autocratically ruled states he whines for the favor of "His Majesty" and misuses it like a leech fastened upon the nations. In democracies he vies for the favor of the masses, cringes before the "majesty of the people," and recognizes only the majesty of money.

He destroys the character of princes with byzantine flattery, national pride (the strength of a people), with ridicule and shameless breeding to depravity. His method of battle is that public opinion which is never expressed in the press but which is nonetheless managed and falsified by it. His power is the power of money, which multiplies in his hands effortlessly and endlessly through interest, and which forces peoples under the most dangerous of yokes. Its golden glitter, so attractive in the beginning, conceals the ultimately tragic consequences. Everything men strive after as a higher goal, be it religion, socialism, democracy, is to the Jew only means to an end, the way to satisfy his lust for gold and domination.

In his effects and consequences he is like a racial tuberculosis of the nations.

The deduction from all this is the following: an antisemitism based on purely emotional grounds will find its ultimate expression in the form of the pogrom.[1] An antisemitism based on reason, however, must lead to systematic legal combatting and elimination of the privileges of the Jews, that which distinguishes the Jews from the other aliens who live among us (an Aliens Law). The ultimate objective [of such legislation] must, however, be the irrevocable removal of the Jews in general.

For both these ends a government of national strength, not of national weakness, is necessary.

The Republic in Germany owes its birth not to the uniform national will of our people but the sly exploitation of a series of circumstances which found general expression in a deep, universal dissatisfaction. These circumstances however were independent of the form of the state and are still operative today. Indeed, more so now than before. Thus, a great portion of our people recognizes that a changed state-form cannot in itself change our situation. For that it will take a rebirth of the moral and spiritual powers of the nation.

And this rebirth cannot be initiated by a state leadership of irresponsible majorities, influenced by certain party dogmas, an irresponsible press, or internationalist phrases and slogans. [It requires] instead the ruthless installation of nationally minded leadership personalities with an inner sense of responsibility.

But these facts deny to the Republic the essential inner support of the nation's spiritual forces. And thus today's state leaders are compelled to seek support among those who draw the exclusive benefits of the new formation of German conditions, and who for this reason were the driving force behind the revolution--the Jews. Even though (as various statements of the leading personalities reveal) today's leaders fully realized the danger of Jewry, they (seeking their own advantage) accepted the readily proffered support of the Jews and also returned the favor. And this pay-off consisted not only in every possible favoring of Jewry, but above all in the hindrance of the struggle of the betrayed people against its defrauders, that is in the repression of the antisemitic movement.

Respectfully,
Adolf Hitler



The above quote was in Mein Kampf? I never read it. If  it did not, do you have a source for where it came from?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: podkarpatska on April 11, 2013, 08:49:51 PM
I believe in no man , I trust only God, and as such there is no one who is innocent, None.

Remember Jesus said that if you get angry at someone you have committed murder.

Matthew 5
Murder

21“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,a and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment.

So we are all guilty of breaking the least of the commandments and so we have broken them all in God's view.

Therefore looking at Hitler as worse than me is wrong even though it is easy, and probably moreso because it is so easy and accepted, this to me is man's worst sin, is acting innocent, and acting as if were above those who were seduced by Satan in Germany.This is what Satan uses aginst us when he wants to tempt us.

Thie truth is  that many have killed in the name of God many more than what Hitler did, Check how many died in Japan in a few hours.
Or how many Blacks were killed maimed and beaten for hundreds of years.
Ask the indians about ethnic cleansing.

Good point.  I have no problem with remembering the Jewish Holocaust and trying to prevent it from ever happening again.  The problem that I have with all of the Holocaust hype is that is all about the Jews, and not the Evil.  As has been pointed out, there have been many genocides just in the last two centuries.  Why do we not also remember them?  Is it because the Armenians, Serbs, Native Americans, Chinese, Ukrainians, Gypsis and the like don't own all of media outlets?  The root cause of the Jewish Holocaust is not antisemitism.  It is not the Nazi Party.  It is not Adolf Hitler.  It is the same root cause of all genocides - Evil.  The afore mentioned are just tools that were used to execute that evil.  Address that and all men can shed their fear of genocide, not just the Jews.  

The is no such thing and innocence.  Only degrees of guilt.

I would encourage all to visit the National Holocaust Museum in Washington. It is a profoundly moving and educational experience. While focusing on the Jews, the Museum deals with all of the victims of the Nazi era while focusing on the Jews - which is accurate given the prime motivations of the "final solution/Die Endlösung" the Museum is fair and balanced in its treatment that horrific era. This link is a synopsis of the victims by grouping: http://www.ushmm.org/research/collections/resourcecenter/survivorvictim/

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Velsigne on April 12, 2013, 12:52:29 AM
No offense, but those Jews get waay too much attention. Homosexuals have been targeted since the dawn of man and were victims of the Holocaust as well, Native Americans suffered genocide, enslavement and had nearly their entire continent stolen from them, the native inhabitants of what is now known as Latin America were colonized, enslaved into forced labour and suffered genocide in many cases, millions of Asian people in China and the Philippines were tortured, raped and murdered by the Japanese--who I consider to have been even more barbaric than Germany. Why is it that the Jews get so much special attention and get an entire nation out of it in the end at the expense of another innocent population (the Palestinians) who did nothing to them?

Well, Jewish people have done a great job of bringing attention to a horrific period of history.  Other persecuted groups are now following suit and asking for international recognition of the genocides they suffered, such as the Assyrians and Armenians.  And I've noticed that certain Jewish groups have left the earlier method of educating on behalf of all people, to just really focusing on themselves and hating Christians.  Abraham Foxman, head of the Anti-Defamation League, denied the Armenian genocide occurred at all until Israel had a falling out with Turkey.  There's a book about it, called The Banality of Denial a take off of Hannah Arendt's work The Banality of Evil.   A young Israeli man made a documentary on it as well called Defamation.  You can watch it on Youtube and draw your own conclusions.   Watch what he says to the Ukrainian government about not upstaging the Jewish Holocaust with the Holodomor.

Yes there are many dark periods of history to study, but this thread is about one specific part of history, and it was a terrible thing that happened.  The Serbs were slaughtered as well, and the most infamous camp was Jasenovac.   

The other aspect of studying the Holocaust is that it is the most well documented genocide, making it an excellent source for studying this aspect of social behavior. 

I don't think many people are really down on Germany today. 

For whatever reason Virtual Paradise just wanted to start a thread on "Hitler's hate towards the Jews". 

 
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 12, 2013, 05:04:05 AM
Again, someone didn't pay attention in history class.......Britain and France declared war on Germany, not the other way around.

Again, you missed that Germany declared war on Poland!

They invaded. Britain sent them a warning, and Germany ignored it - listen to Chamberlain's speech regarding the 'Final Note' that Germany ignored.

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 12, 2013, 05:06:24 AM
Jewish Activists
Created Communism
By Rev. Ted Pike
6-12-7


http://rense.com/general76/commun.htm

Satisfied?

Only if one classes a person a Jew, even if they do not - which is racist!

Marx was not a practicing member of the Jewish faith.

AND it ignores the examples I gave from Christianity that pre-date Marx by at least 200 years
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Virtual Paradise on April 12, 2013, 05:08:19 AM
Jewish Activists
Created Communism
By Rev. Ted Pike
6-12-7


http://rense.com/general76/commun.htm

Satisfied?

Only if one classes a person a Jew, even if they do not - which is racist!

Marx was not a practicing member of the Jewish faith.

AND it ignores the examples I gave from Christianity that pre-date Marx by at least 200 years

Jewishness is first an ethnicity than a religion.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 12, 2013, 05:09:21 AM
The above quote was in Mein Kampf?
Really? I didn't say that it did
I never read it.
You can buy it from many bookshops

If  it did not, do you have a source for where it came from?

The quote is mentioned here too
http://www.h-net.org/~german/gtext/kaiserreich/hitler2.html
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Pan Michał on April 12, 2013, 05:16:14 AM
In 1939 territorial claims were an accepted justification for war. Both Russia and Germany invaded Poland to reclaim land lost at Versailles as a consequence of WWI.

What? Russia and Versailles?

Poland was a small landlocked country before the war.

What? This guy ever saw pre-war map of Europe?

The victors in WWI took it upon themselves to force Russians and Germans to become Poles.

This is so absurd it isn't even funny. I presume vast majority of modern Serbs are simply Turks, which were forced to become Serbs?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 12, 2013, 05:16:52 AM
Jewish Activists
Created Communism
By Rev. Ted Pike
6-12-7


http://rense.com/general76/commun.htm

Satisfied?

Only if one classes a person a Jew, even if they do not - which is racist!

Marx was not a practicing member of the Jewish faith.

AND it ignores the examples I gave from Christianity that pre-date Marx by at least 200 years

Jewishness is first an ethnicity than a religion.

That's you imposing your beliefs them. Many people of Jewish background chose to identify themselves as Germans, first. They might 'racially' have been 'mixed'.

My 'race' is of Scottish and German background. I am Australian. For you to call me Scots-German is not how I identify myself.

And Hitler too had a system that one single Jewish grand-parent was enough to make one Jewish. Marx's children would be classified by Hitler as Jews, even though they weren't of that faith and their mother was Jenny von Westphalen - a Prussian

I think people here are too easily changing between Jew (race) and Jew (religious observer) anyway.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 12, 2013, 05:29:12 AM
Again, someone didn't pay attention in history class.......Britain and France declared war on Germany, not the other way around.
So if you're attacked and I come to your aid and attack the person attacking you, I started it!  ???

"The usual claim is that Germany started WWII by invading Poland. That is war propaganda. It wasn't even called a world war until after the US entered into it which brought in Japan's war with China which gave the war a global scope. So the most we can address with the invasion of Poland is war in Europe.
You're sunk then by your own source again.

IF it wasn't a world war until the US entered the war then Germany and Japan caused the World War because they are the ones who started the war with the United States; Japan by attacking and, Germany by declaring war on the US!

So was it Germany's invasion of Poland that started the general war in Europe? No. It was Britain and France declaring a state of war existed with Germany which did that. Germany did not declare war on Britain and France. Italy did not get into the war until Britain and France declared a state of war existed with Germany.
So, Italy obliged by treaty to come into the war to help Germany is not at fault, by declaring war on France, but Britain is at fault for doing the same thing???

Wow! :laugh:

One excuse is Britain and France had a mutual defense treaty with Poland which they had to honor.


The first point is Russia also invaded Poland but Britain and France did not declare war on Russia. So the treaty was selectively honored at best.
Britain did however send aid to Finland in 1939 when Finland was attacked by Russia
The second point is honoring the treaty, like signing the treaty, was completely voluntary. No one forced them to sign it or to honor it and clearly no one could have forced them to do either.
See your defence for Italy above!
The third point is, although the intention to create such a treaty was announced in the Spring of 1939 it was in only signed eight days before the invasion of Poland. That is skin of the teeth to have it as a cheap propaganda excuse.
It is my understanding that they were obliged to help Poland in defence against Germany, not the Soviet Union.

This is not uncommon. The ANZUS treaty of which Australia, New Zealand, and the United States signed obliges each other to come to the mutual aid if an attack is made in the Pacific. In theory if Australia was attacked from the Indian Ocean side, the US would not be obliged to help.

Similarly when Czechoslovakia was carved up by Germany - Poland and Hungary took their small pieces too.
In 1939 territorial claims were an accepted justification for war. Both Russia and Germany invaded Poland to reclaim land lost at Versailles as a consequence of WWI.
Actually the Soviet Union gave up lands to Germany at the end of WWI as the price for Germany ceasing to fight it.
Poland was a small landlocked country before the war.

Immediately before WWI it didn't exist.

After the war, it was given a land corridor to the sea - check your facts first. That corridor split East Prussia from the rest of Germany
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: jmbejdl on April 12, 2013, 05:56:35 AM
You can call serdom whatever you want but at the end of the day, you can't call it slavery. Not like slavery was practiced in the British Empire or the U.S., nobody in Europe's "serfdom's" were snatched out of their indigenous lands, transported and sold off or auctioned to the highest bidder and forced into a life of slave labor under the thumb of their "master" for the rest of their natural lives.

Germany, as long as it has been a nation, has never engaged in this practice.


You want to bet? Other than the commercial transaction, that's exactly what happened to many people who were taken from outside Germany, interned in camps and forced to work for various German companies in Nazi Germany. That's what happened to my grandmother and great aunts who were rounded up in France, shipped to north Germany and forced to work at the ammunition factory. No they didn't stay for the rest of their lives, but then many others did (as the death toll from accidents, illness, starvation and ill treatment was pretty high, not to mention the executions) and, of course, the factory was liberated and the camp was used for billeting British soldiers after the war. Neither its end or the fact that it was state sponsored rather than commercial means it was not slavery, however. You can limit slavery to the type of chattel slavery once practised in the US but it doesn't bolster your argument - many of the slaves in the classical world were not held under such conditions either. Or is it your contention that they weren't slaves either?

James

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: mike on April 12, 2013, 07:17:35 AM
From the Jewish Encyclopedia: ""Jews have been prominently identified with the modern Socialist movement from its very inception." "Scientific socialism," or what we call communism, says the Universal Jewish Encyclopedia in its article on socialism, "originated in the combination of Jewish Messianic feeling with German philosophy" 1 Marx, of course, was Jewish. But, just as important, Jews at all levels, from high financiers like the Warburgs, Schiffs and Rothschilds to rugged revolutionaries like Trotsky, Kamenev, Sverdlov and Zinoviev, made the success of communism possible.

Source of this quote. You have 48 hours to provide it.
Jewish Activists
Created Communism
By Rev. Ted Pike
6-12-7


http://rense.com/general76/commun.htm

Satisfied?

Yes. Next time you won't provide the source of copied texts you will get an official warning.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 12, 2013, 07:22:09 AM
To those that think Germany never had slavery:

"Serfdom replaced slavery in medieval Germany."
http://www.britannica.com/blackhistory/article-24160

And serfdom is not far-removed from slavery.

Australia boasts that we never had slavery. Strictly speaking this is true. But we were founded on convict labour (a type of slavery). Also, with force or false promises, Kanakas from New Caledonia were brought to far northern Australia to get the sugar industry going. Their conditions weren't far off slavery either. When Australia became a nation (1901) most of these people were sent back, even though they'd established themselves here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanaka_(Pacific_Island_worker)#Australia

One has to be careful about terminology. It would be very easy for me to boast Australia has had no slavery (whereas Germany has), but it would be misleading because of the facts I've just stated.

To say Germany has had no slavery is even more false.

Every country in Europe at one time since Medieval times employed in "serfdom"" which meant different things in each distinct nation in which it was practiced. For many of the poor, it was for their very survival and even flourished by it.


You can call serdom whatever you want but at the end of the day, you can't call it slavery. Not like slavery was practiced in the British Empire or the U.S., nobody in Europe's "serfdom's" were snatched out of their indigenous lands, transported and sold off or auctioned to the highest bidder and forced into a life of slave labor under the thumb of their "master" for the rest of their natural lives.

Germany, as long as it has been a nation, has never engaged in this practice.

You're "serfdom" argument is fallacious or weak at best.

Keep trying.

Firstly, I evidenced that Germany had slavery. Your post didn't address that evidence. Instead you offer a speculation about the joys of serfdom.

Serfdom was tying people to the land. It became enshrined in law, in some cases so that generation after generation were bound to work the land for a lord. Being a 'lord' (the aristocracy) meant not having to do any work - all the serfs do the work for you.

Slavery in Europe in the Middle Ages may have been more 'fluid'* than in antebellum US; and of course it wasn't race-based to begin with. But Germany had slavery! I addressed directly a point made by another poster.



*-by fluid I mean that slavery was not necessarily a generational thing; in some systems slaves could earn some money and eventually buy their own freedom; conversely some people who were in debt became slaves as part of their way of dealing with that debt.

Serfdom too had its moments of fluidity. During and after the Black Death there was such a loss of population in some areas that labour became more valued and people could earn more money. Some families were able to raise themselves out of serfdom.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 12, 2013, 07:23:47 AM
It's truly amazing that people are apologising for the most heinous crimes in history.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 12, 2013, 07:26:48 AM
I note that initially a claim was made from the "Universal Jewish Encyclopedia". It seems so far that this has itself not actually been cited, but rather an on-line commentator's opinion of what he thinks the "Universal Jewish Encyclopedia" says.

One person has cited "Ted Pike" who I believe is an anti-Semite.

Certainly his missives are full of errors

Take this for e.g.

"When Hitler and Mussolini came to power, parliamentary governments had been in place in Germany and Italy for at least a half a century. These dictators established political power outside legislative due process, under the guise of national emergency. They ruled by fiat – claiming such was the only efficient way to regain national power and honor. In just this way, Democrats betrayed justice in the Senate this past week."
UNITE AGAINST HATE LAW TYRANNY!

 By Rev. Ted Pike
http://www.eaec.org/bibleanswers/ted-pike-antisemitism.htm

Firstly, it's misleading; Germany's parliament 'the Reichstag' had been in existence since 1871, however it only became a free institution following the end of WWI - previous to that it simply rubber-stamped the wish of the Emperor.

Hitler didn't come to power outside 'due-process'. He was named Chancellor, legally by Paul von Hindenburg. He then formed a coalition with Christian Democrats (such as Franz von Papen)

The Reichstag Fire Decree was issued at Hitlers urging by von Hindenburg.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: J Michael on April 12, 2013, 09:33:09 AM
It's truly amazing that people are apologising for the most heinous crimes in history.

Yeah...never ceases to amaze me, really.  Not to mention why some people continually harp on about it.  ::)

And, to obstinately deny that the nation-state called "Germany", which has only existed since 1870, never had slavery is patently absurd, and patently untrue.  A quick glance at some of the images here http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1024&bih=622&q=german+slavery&oq=german+slavery&gs_l=img.3...1825.4159.0.4493.14.9.0.5.1.0.123.605.8j1.9.0...0.0...1ac.1.9.img.t3NHG8DzdNQ#hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=german+slave+labor&oq=german+slave+labor&gs_l=img.3...18540.21075.0.21769.9.7.1.1.1.0.119.421.6j1.7.0...0.0...1c.1.9.img.cKLyrkXhBd0&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.45175338,d.dmg&fp=65cc7ed851268383&biw=1024&bih=622 should dispel that notion, not to mention reams and reams of documentation that exists about it and by which it can be verified.  Of course, it's easy to say that those pics are faked or that the documentation is fraudulent or just lies, but unless one can unequivocally substantiate that....


One point of clarification about what you (at least I think it was you  ;)) said earlier re: declarations of war, etc.  I know it's a little nit-picky, but according to this http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/nexus/NXdeclarations.html (which I found via a cursory google search and cannot vouch for the accuracy thereof) it was Poland who declared war on Germany, after Germany invaded her--without first declaring war on Poland.  Seems to me, however, that an invasion is a de-facto declaration that a state of war exists.  One can also look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland .  Just hit control + F to do a word search for "declaration" and see what comes up!
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Punch on April 12, 2013, 02:50:06 PM
My Grandparents used both Russian and Italian slave labor during WWII.  No, they were not paid, and yes, they were shot if they did not work.  I have a Ukrainian friend here at work (now retired actually) who's parents both worked slave labor for the Germans.  They said that they were treated rather well for the farm families they worked for, but there was not pay and you dared not try to escape.  Kind of meets my definition of slavery.  In fact, it meats the German definition of slavery because that is exactly what my family called them.

You can call serdom whatever you want but at the end of the day, you can't call it slavery. Not like slavery was practiced in the British Empire or the U.S., nobody in Europe's "serfdom's" were snatched out of their indigenous lands, transported and sold off or auctioned to the highest bidder and forced into a life of slave labor under the thumb of their "master" for the rest of their natural lives.

Germany, as long as it has been a nation, has never engaged in this practice.


You want to bet? Other than the commercial transaction, that's exactly what happened to many people who were taken from outside Germany, interned in camps and forced to work for various German companies in Nazi Germany. That's what happened to my grandmother and great aunts who were rounded up in France, shipped to north Germany and forced to work at the ammunition factory. No they didn't stay for the rest of their lives, but then many others did (as the death toll from accidents, illness, starvation and ill treatment was pretty high, not to mention the executions) and, of course, the factory was liberated and the camp was used for billeting British soldiers after the war. Neither its end or the fact that it was state sponsored rather than commercial means it was not slavery, however. You can limit slavery to the type of chattel slavery once practised in the US but it doesn't bolster your argument - many of the slaves in the classical world were not held under such conditions either. Or is it your contention that they weren't slaves either?

James


Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Punch on April 12, 2013, 02:53:23 PM
Not until those evil Poles shot up that German radio station.  Would the Furher lie?


Again, someone didn't pay attention in history class.......Britain and France declared war on Germany, not the other way around.

Again, you missed that Germany declared war on Poland!

They invaded. Britain sent them a warning, and Germany ignored it - listen to Chamberlain's speech regarding the 'Final Note' that Germany ignored.


Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on April 12, 2013, 06:10:53 PM
Jewishness is first an ethnicity than a religion.

 I would like to explore this a little more.  Mods, can we split this off so as not to hijack this thread?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 12, 2013, 07:54:34 PM
Quote
Again, you missed that Germany declared war on Poland!

Which had nothing to do with Britain or France, regardless of some faux treaty or "alliance" they had with the Poles.

This was the Anglos way of securing a fight with NS Germany, which they so desperately wanted.

Quote
They invaded. Britain sent them a warning, and Germany ignored it - listen to Chamberlain's speech regarding the 'Final Note' that Germany ignored.

Britain agitated the whole situation, empowered the Poles, encroached on Germany's foreign policy and Poland paid for it.

Camberlain's "speech" fell on deaf ears while those Western democracies did nothing to help their supposedly Polish "ally" while the Soviets promptly sucked up the rest of what was left of eastern Poland while again, the Western dmeocracies did nothing.


Then shortly after them "Gentlemen" and their Frog cohorts were chased across the British Channel back where they belonged.

Moral of the story, Britain and France picked a fight in which didn't concern them and they could not win until the "sleeping giant" across the Atlantic become involved with the help of the wounded Bear in the East. The rest as they say, is history.

But you will never convince me or any other serious criticial thinking person of history that;

A. Germany declared war on the Western democracies creating WWII.

B. Those same democracies engaged in a dangerous chess game with a German regime still licking it's wounds and recovering from a  from a major war it did not start and never actually finished or "surrendered".

C. Again those same "democracies" while taking a good game against the NS's were totally complicit in the eventual rise and success of the Communist beast in the East, while not only encouraging and enabling that monster but activley financing and "allying" with it.

To many this is completely unacceptable and totally removes the Western democracies from having any kind of the moral "high ground,".
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 12, 2013, 07:58:13 PM
It's truly amazing that people are apologising for the most heinous crimes in history.

Yeah...never ceases to amaze me, really.  Not to mention why some people continually harp on about it.  ::)

And, to obstinately deny that the nation-state called "Germany", which has only existed since 1870, never had slavery is patently absurd, and patently untrue.  A quick glance at some of the images here http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1024&bih=622&q=german+slavery&oq=german+slavery&gs_l=img.3...1825.4159.0.4493.14.9.0.5.1.0.123.605.8j1.9.0...0.0...1ac.1.9.img.t3NHG8DzdNQ#hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=german+slave+labor&oq=german+slave+labor&gs_l=img.3...18540.21075.0.21769.9.7.1.1.1.0.119.421.6j1.7.0...0.0...1c.1.9.img.cKLyrkXhBd0&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.45175338,d.dmg&fp=65cc7ed851268383&biw=1024&bih=622 should dispel that notion, not to mention reams and reams of documentation that exists about it and by which it can be verified.  Of course, it's easy to say that those pics are faked or that the documentation is fraudulent or just lies, but unless one can unequivocally substantiate that....


One point of clarification about what you (at least I think it was you  ;)) said earlier re: declarations of war, etc.  I know it's a little nit-picky, but according to this http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/nexus/NXdeclarations.html (which I found via a cursory google search and cannot vouch for the accuracy thereof) it was Poland who declared war on Germany, after Germany invaded her--without first declaring war on Poland.  Seems to me, however, that an invasion is a de-facto declaration that a state of war exists.  One can also look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland .  Just hit control + F to do a word search for "declaration" and see what comes up!

Not to be nit-picky, myself... but I believe that the very act of invading is a declaration of war. Thus when the US went to war against Japan (when FDR gave his infamy speech in Congress) they stated that the war had started already. All they were doing was formally declaring what they believed to be already happening... and I suppose then there are certain legal devices one can use once its formally been declared - if this were not the case then Americans could be prosecuted for firing back on the Japanese because no formal declaration of war had been declared.

Also, Germany executed some of their political prisoners, dressed them up as Poles and declared that their invasion was simply a reaction to Polish troops crossing over into Germany!

Leni Riefenstahl, the film-maker helped construct propaganda film to show that the Poles had actually, technically 'invaded' Germany first!

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 12, 2013, 07:59:26 PM
Which had nothing to do with Britain or France, regardless of some faux treaty or "alliance" they had with the Poles.

The war didn't begin with Britain and France declaring war on Germany, but with Germany declaring war on Poland, by act.

I noted that if your theory were correct you've rebuffed yourself re: Italy!

What concerned Britain, and has always been the central plank of their foreign policy is to never allow a single power to dominate in Europe.

The insanity of apologising for Nazi aggression, hate and, evil has lead to a series of very strange assumptions and arguments, some of which, as I've noted are on your part self-refuting.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 12, 2013, 07:59:58 PM
Not until those evil Poles shot up that German radio station.  Would the Furher lie?


Again, someone didn't pay attention in history class.......Britain and France declared war on Germany, not the other way around.

Again, you missed that Germany declared war on Poland!

They invaded. Britain sent them a warning, and Germany ignored it - listen to Chamberlain's speech regarding the 'Final Note' that Germany ignored.




Yes, Leni Riefenstahl was behind some of the footage that showed this.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 12, 2013, 08:05:16 PM
Quote
Jewishness is first an ethnicity than a religion.

Judaism is in it's essence is  an ethno-centric religion.

Most Jews will agree on this.

I don't know why it drives some non-Jews to  wildly crazy to suggest it.

The truth seems to have a serious emotional effect of some.

Like those rabid pharisees that screamed, wailed, foamed at the mouth and rent their clothes before they stoned St. Paul.

Aboslute insanity.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 12, 2013, 08:10:44 PM
Quote
Jewishness is first an ethnicity than a religion.

Judaism is in it's essence is  an ethno-centric religion.

Most Jews will agree on this.

I don't know why it drives some non-Jews to  wildly crazy to suggest it.
Marx was not religiously a Jew.

What drives me wild is that even when some Jews because secularised in Germany in the 1800s; either becoming nominally Christian, or atheists, racists still said that they were Jewish.

Speaking of 'rabid' they then condemned to death people who only had one grand-parent who was a Jew!

And others defend here the acts of those who murdered those people!

The whole basis of racism is to ascribe traits that one has inherited, and in this case they classify Marx as a Jew, because of 'race', even if he chose to marry a Prussian, and wasn't a practicing member of the Jewish faith. And his children who were even less 'Jewish' would still be deemed to be 'Jews' by those same racists
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 12, 2013, 08:17:18 PM
Camberlain's "speech" fell on deaf ears while those Western democracies did nothing to help their supposedly Polish "ally" while the Soviets promptly sucked up the rest of what was left of eastern Poland while again, the Western dmeocracies did nothing.
There you go refuting yourself again!

If that speech did NOTHING - then your argument that Britain started the war is refuted by your own claim that nothing happened!

What is called 'the phoney war' (or Sitzkreig) was still a war: Britain built up troops in France - because lo and behold they were caught off-guard, because it was Germany that had been fully armed! However their navy was able to engage the Germans (such as fighting the pocket-battleship Graf Spee)


Then shortly after them "Gentlemen" and their Frog cohorts were chased across the British Channel back where they belonged.
So the French belong in Britain?
Moral of the story, Britain and France picked a fight in which didn't concern them and they could not win until the "sleeping giant" across the Atlantic become involved with the help of the wounded Bear in the East. The rest as they say, is history.
Yes, that's Britain's finest hour! Entering the war on principle against a nation that had been arming and training for years!

But you will never convince me or any other serious criticial thinking person of history that;

A. Germany declared war on the Western democracies creating WWII.

B. Those same democracies engaged in a dangerous chess game with a German regime still licking it's wounds and recovering from a  from a major war it did not start and never actually finished or "surrendered".

C. Again those same "democracies" while taking a good game against the NS's were totally complicit in the eventual rise and success of the Communist beast in the East, while not only encouraging and enabling that monster but activley financing and "allying" with it.

To many this is completely unacceptable and totally removes the Western democracies from having any kind of the moral "high ground,".
[/quote]
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 12, 2013, 08:18:54 PM
You can call serdom whatever you want but at the end of the day, you can't call it slavery. Not like slavery was practiced in the British Empire or the U.S., nobody in Europe's "serfdom's" were snatched out of their indigenous lands, transported and sold off or auctioned to the highest bidder and forced into a life of slave labor under the thumb of their "master" for the rest of their natural lives.

Germany, as long as it has been a nation, has never engaged in this practice.


You want to bet? Other than the commercial transaction, that's exactly what happened to many people who were taken from outside Germany, interned in camps and forced to work for various German companies in Nazi Germany. That's what happened to my grandmother and great aunts who were rounded up in France, shipped to north Germany and forced to work at the ammunition factory. No they didn't stay for the rest of their lives, but then many others did (as the death toll from accidents, illness, starvation and ill treatment was pretty high, not to mention the executions) and, of course, the factory was liberated and the camp was used for billeting British soldiers after the war. Neither its end or the fact that it was state sponsored rather than commercial means it was not slavery, however. You can limit slavery to the type of chattel slavery once practised in the US but it doesn't bolster your argument - many of the slaves in the classical world were not held under such conditions either. Or is it your contention that they weren't slaves either?

James


I'm not getting into an emotional discussion about all the horrors of NS Germany .

You can say whatever you want and there's no way to prove either way and of course the Germans will always be labeled as "monsters" who should all be rounded up , shot and burn in hell forever. and that's without ever giving them a chance to vindicate themsleves or hear their side of the story.

No one really wants to get at the truth of that time period just a call for the eternal bloodlust of the German people for the supposed crimes against humanity that occured before,during and after the war.

Someone can start a thread on just that, but in some parts of the world, even discussing it can you charged with a "hate crime".

The only thing I know, is the more they try and suppress the truth, the more evident it becomes.

If your a Christian, you should certainly relate to that.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 12, 2013, 08:23:21 PM
I'm not getting into an emotional discussion about all the horrors of NS Germany .
Why not? Your posts supporting them is of interest
You can say whatever you want and there's no way to prove either way and of course the Germans will always be labeled as "monsters" who should all be rounded up , shot and burn in hell forever. and that's without ever giving them a chance to vindicate themsleves or hear their side of the story.
Who has advocated them all being shot?

Even after all their monstrous horrors were discovered the allies didn't do this

No one really wants to get at the truth of that time period just a call for the eternal bloodlust of the German people for the supposed crimes against humanity that occured before,during and after the war.
What do you mean 'supposed crimes'? At the time the camps were liberated the allies took locals through the camps to both

a) act as witnesses
and
b) clean up the mess
Someone can start a thread on just that, but in some parts of the world, even discussing it can you charged with a "hate crime".
It's truly amazing (and warped) that someone addressing a fact is accused of a hate crime
The only thing I know, is the more they try and suppress the truth, the more evident it becomes.

If your a Christian, you should certainly relate to that.
No Christian would support the Nazis
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 12, 2013, 08:25:18 PM
Quote
Jewishness is first an ethnicity than a religion.

Judaism is in it's essence is  an ethno-centric religion.

Most Jews will agree on this.

I don't know why it drives some non-Jews to  wildly crazy to suggest it.
Marx was not religiously a Jew.

What drives me wild is that even when some Jews because secularised in Germany in the 1800s; either becoming nominally Christian, or atheists, racists still said that they were Jewish.

Speaking of 'rabid' they then condemned to death people who only had one grand-parent who was a Jew!

And others defend here the acts of those who murdered those people!

The whole basis of racism is to ascribe traits that one has inherited, and in this case they classify Marx as a Jew, because of 'race', even if he chose to marry a Prussian, and wasn't a practicing member of the Jewish faith. And his children who were even less 'Jewish' would still be deemed to be 'Jews' by those same racists
Is there any other religion on the face of the Earth more racial or "racists" than Judaism?

For crying out loud, the Orthodox believe you can't even be a true Jew unless your biological mother was one.

In other words, you have to be born a Jew or forget it!

Now you tell me, does it get any more "racist" than that?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 12, 2013, 09:54:08 PM
Is there any other religion on the face of the Earth more racial or "racists" than Judaism?
Hinduism?
For crying out loud, the Orthodox believe you can't even be a true Jew unless your biological mother was one.
So what? The Nazis believed you were a Jew if you had one single grand-parent who was 'Jewish'.
In other words, you have to be born a Jew or forget it!

Now you tell me, does it get any more "racist" than that?

What's more racist? Pro-Nazi apologists
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Jason.Wike on April 12, 2013, 11:05:45 PM
Quote
Jewishness is first an ethnicity than a religion.

Judaism is in it's essence is  an ethno-centric religion.

Most Jews will agree on this.

I don't know why it drives some non-Jews to  wildly crazy to suggest it.
Marx was not religiously a Jew.

What drives me wild is that even when some Jews because secularised in Germany in the 1800s; either becoming nominally Christian, or atheists, racists still said that they were Jewish.

Speaking of 'rabid' they then condemned to death people who only had one grand-parent who was a Jew!

And others defend here the acts of those who murdered those people!

The whole basis of racism is to ascribe traits that one has inherited, and in this case they classify Marx as a Jew, because of 'race', even if he chose to marry a Prussian, and wasn't a practicing member of the Jewish faith. And his children who were even less 'Jewish' would still be deemed to be 'Jews' by those same racists
Is there any other religion on the face of the Earth more racial or "racists" than Judaism?

For crying out loud, the Orthodox believe you can't even be a true Jew unless your biological mother was one.

In other words, you have to be born a Jew or forget it!

Now you tell me, does it get any more "racist" than that?

Actually it is not racist at all, considering someone can convert to orthodox Judaism, and it is forbidden to remind someone they were a convert or hold any idea that they are 'less Jewish' in any way at all. The idea that they are not a 'true Jew' is certainly not one they hold... the Midrash even says a convert is more dear to God than those born into Judaism or those who were at mount Sinai.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Velsigne on April 13, 2013, 12:18:37 PM

You can call serdom whatever you want but at the end of the day, you can't call it slavery. Not like slavery was practiced in the British Empire or the U.S., nobody in Europe's "serfdom's" were snatched out of their indigenous lands, transported and sold off or auctioned to the highest bidder and forced into a life of slave labor under the thumb of their "master" for the rest of their natural lives.

Germany, as long as it has been a nation, has never engaged in this practice.


You want to bet? Other than the commercial transaction, that's exactly what happened to many people who were taken from outside Germany, interned in camps and forced to work for various German companies in Nazi Germany. That's what happened to my grandmother and great aunts who were rounded up in France, shipped to north Germany and forced to work at the ammunition factory. No they didn't stay for the rest of their lives, but then many others did (as the death toll from accidents, illness, starvation and ill treatment was pretty high, not to mention the executions) and, of course, the factory was liberated and the camp was used for billeting British soldiers after the war. Neither its end or the fact that it was state sponsored rather than commercial means it was not slavery, however. You can limit slavery to the type of chattel slavery once practised in the US but it doesn't bolster your argument - many of the slaves in the classical world were not held under such conditions either. Or is it your contention that they weren't slaves either?

James



I'm not getting into an emotional discussion about all the horrors of NS Germany .

You can say whatever you want and there's no way to prove either way and of course the Germans will always be labeled as "monsters" who should all be rounded up , shot and burn in hell forever. and that's without ever giving them a chance to vindicate themsleves or hear their side of the story.


No one really wants to get at the truth of that time period just a call for the eternal bloodlust of the German people for the supposed crimes against humanity that occured before,during and after the war.

Someone can start a thread on just that, but in some parts of the world, even discussing it can you charged with a "hate crime".

The only thing I know, is the more they try and suppress the truth, the more evident it becomes.

If your a Christian, you should certainly relate to that.





After the war some Germans in local villages around the death camps were forced to go into the camps and witness what was going on right next door. 

Some Germans were put into the camps themselves.  Some places they were interred had no shelter, potable water, etc. and the death rates were very high.   Basically they got a taste of their own medicine, especially on the Soviet side, but also from the Allies. 

Germans themselves have outlawed Nazi politics.  Denial of the Holocaust is illegal there too.  Both are legal in the United States as protected speech, of which you appear to fully avail yourself.  Germany stepped up, apologized, and tried to pay reparations to survivors.  You are complaining that their side of the story is not heard, but not even Germany is interested in making excuses for themselves for an insane period of their history.  They've moved on, Germany is a very successful country today, one of the most successful in the EU at this point in time.  Most Germans today could not imagine participating in what occurred during WWII.  They are completely shocked when some random American goes on a shooting spree.  I've even heard one say, "That would never happen in Germany!" 

German schools probably educate people about what happened as well.  Japan doesn't do that so much.  Different culture. 

I haven't noticed anyone on this thread who is hoping for them to be rounded up, shot, or any other violence committed against them.  I would hope there is no wholesale eternal condemnation of the German people either.

Sometimes people discuss history simply because they are interested in understanding the past, and how that creates the present day social milieu, or simply because the past is interesting enough in itself, not to engender hatred toward a group of people.   Some try to learn from past mistakes, but to actually implement that takes a force of collective will, which Germany seems to have achieved. 

Have you read any Bonhoeffer?   
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on April 13, 2013, 07:15:49 PM
Jewishness is first an ethnicity than a religion.

 I would like to explore this a little more.  Mods, can we split this off so as not to hijack this thread?

 Either I haven't seen the split-off or hijacking is no longer an issue.  Sooooo...

 I've never been able to fully understand Judaism as an ethnicity for the simple fact that there are Ashkenazi Jews (White/Caucasian), Sephardic Jews (Mediterranean/Spanish), Mizrahim Jews (Near Eastern/Arabic), Ethiopian Jews (African/Black), and a few others (Indian?).  We can clearly see where it might be confusing when some posit Judaism is an ethnicity.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: J Michael on April 13, 2013, 07:21:44 PM
Jewishness is first an ethnicity than a religion.

 I would like to explore this a little more.  Mods, can we split this off so as not to hijack this thread?

 Either I haven't seen the split-off or hijacking is no longer an issue.  Sooooo...

 I've never been able to fully understand Judaism as an ethnicity for the simple fact that there are Ashkenazi Jews (White/Caucasian), Sephardic Jews (Mediterranean/Spanish), Mizrahim Jews (Near Eastern/Arabic), Ethiopian Jews (African/Black), and a few others (Indian?).  We can clearly see where it might be confusing when some posit Judaism is an ethnicity.

Just came across this:
Quote
DNA links prove Jews are a ‘race,' says genetics expert
Conjuring fear of Nazism and anti-Semitism, Jews recoil from the thought that Judaism might be a race, but medical geneticist Harry Ostrer insists the 'biological basis of Jewishness' cannot be ignored.

In his new book, “Legacy: A Genetic History of the Jewish People,” Harry Ostrer, a medical geneticist and professor at Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York, claims that Jews are different, and the differences are not just skin deep. Jews exhibit, he writes, a distinctive genetic signature. Considering that the Nazis tried to exterminate Jews based on their supposed racial distinctiveness, such a conclusion might be a cause for concern. But Ostrer sees it as central to Jewish identity.
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/dna-links-prove-jews-are-a-race-says-genetics-expert-1.428664
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: mike on April 13, 2013, 07:22:50 PM
Jewishness is first an ethnicity than a religion.

 I would like to explore this a little more.  Mods, can we split this off so as not to hijack this thread?

 Either I haven't seen the split-off or hijacking is no longer an issue.  Sooooo...

 I've never been able to fully understand Judaism as an ethnicity for the simple fact that there are Ashkenazi Jews (White/Caucasian), Sephardic Jews (Mediterranean/Spanish), Mizrahim Jews (Near Eastern/Arabic), Ethiopian Jews (African/Black), and a few others (Indian?).  We can clearly see where it might be confusing when some posit Judaism is an ethnicity.

Can't you start new threads any longer?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on April 13, 2013, 07:40:48 PM
Jewishness is first an ethnicity than a religion.

 I would like to explore this a little more.  Mods, can we split this off so as not to hijack this thread?

 Either I haven't seen the split-off or hijacking is no longer an issue.  Sooooo...

 I've never been able to fully understand Judaism as an ethnicity for the simple fact that there are Ashkenazi Jews (White/Caucasian), Sephardic Jews (Mediterranean/Spanish), Mizrahim Jews (Near Eastern/Arabic), Ethiopian Jews (African/Black), and a few others (Indian?).  We can clearly see where it might be confusing when some posit Judaism is an ethnicity.

Can't you start new threads any longer?

 Are you replying as a mod or a regular poster?  The lack of moderator green has me intrigued.  But to answer your question, sport, this forum has a rich heritage of splitting off child threads to keep the parent thread on topic.  I perused the myriad of ever-changing rules and didn't see where mods have exclusive rights to split-off child threads.  Still, the precedent was set long ago, so...  If it's too complicated, I'll start a new thread.  :)
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: mike on April 13, 2013, 07:52:33 PM
No green.

If I were you I would had just quoted JP post and had started new thread instead of writing 3 posts of necessity starting new thread. That would have been much more efficient.

And if you want someting from mods, report posts.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 13, 2013, 07:58:04 PM
Quote
Marx was not religiously a Jew.

He was still, in essence, a "jew" nevertheless.

Quote
Marx was not religiously a Jew.

What drives me wild is that even when some Jews because secularised in Germany in the 1800s; either becoming nominally Christian, or atheists, racists still said that they were Jewish.

No, their religion/belief system believes they still remain a Jew, always and forever. Again, even the Jews will admit this. I don't understand why people like you can't grasp the fact that Judaism is a racial religion, just because one converts to this or that or even embraces no belief at all, it still doesn't exempt him from being a Jew. Why then would there be Christian Jews or Muslim Jews or Buddhist Jews or even atheist Jews? We even have many Orthodox "Jews" on this board, so why is it so sacrilege to confirm what the Jews themselves have never denied? Once one is born a Jew, he's a Jew for life. It's like a club with permanent membership, all you have to do is be born in the right place. This is not "hate" in acknowledging this, just the bitter truth.

Quote
Speaking of 'rabid' they then condemned to death people who only had one grand-parent who was a Jew!

I believe the one Jew grandparent thing was not sufficient enough to pass the Mischling Test in most cases. Very few were "condemned to death". At any rate, as I stated earlier, I refuse to get into a debate about Jews and the "holocaust" on this or most threads, people really can't have a rational and factual discussion without all kinds of fanatical and fantastical accusations.

Quote
And others defend here the acts of those who murdered those people!

You are quite insane. I insist you prove where anyone on here defended any "murderers".

I'm curious, do you get this upset over abortion doctors? That I could understand.

Quote
The whole basis of racism is to ascribe traits that one has inherited, and in this case they classify Marx as a Jew, because of 'race', even if he chose to marry a Prussian, and wasn't a practicing member of the Jewish faith. And his children who were even less 'Jewish' would still be deemed to be 'Jews' by those same racists

The Jews still consider him a racial/ethnic Jew regardless. Once born a biological Jew always a Jew. that is their belief system, not ours.For them, race transcends religion. Now you tell me , who's the "racists"?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 13, 2013, 08:37:13 PM
Quote
Quote from: Charles Martel on Yesterday at 08:18:54 PM
I'm not getting into an emotional discussion about all the horrors of NS Germany .
Why not? Your posts supporting them is of interest
My posts merely point a few things, namely that many Jews were complicit in some way for the Nazi "blowback" against much of organized Jewry and their Communist allies. Also, that the Anglos were on board for the very war you refuse to concieve that they started and agitated from the beginning. I just believe there is much more to the story of the origins of WWII than the Germans or NS were just a "evil" race of people who just woke up one day hating Jews and starting a world war.

Quote
Who has advocated them all being shot?

Even after all their monstrous horrors were discovered the allies didn't do this

Many of them actually were and let's not forget the Allied genocide of places like Dresden and the mass murder and rape of German civilians by the Red Army that wonderful "ally" of Britain and America.

Quote
truly amazing (and warped) that someone addressing a fact is accused of a hate crime
I agree, been to "Free" and " Democratic" Germany lately?

No one is allowed to question the official ADL version of the "holoco$t" without the threat of arrest, fines and imprisonment.

They will even go after Catholic Bishops in charging them with heresy about questioning any aspect of the holocaust religion. even the pope is challenged to go along with the program or else. This modern day "McCarthyism" over the the holocaust religion hasn't been seen since the Salem witch trials. Absolute madness.

Quote
No Christian would support the Nazis
Germany was predominately Christian when it elected Hitler Chancellor in 1933.

Having said that;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskonkordat

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: stanley123 on April 13, 2013, 09:12:18 PM
Jewishness is first an ethnicity than a religion.

 I would like to explore this a little more.  Mods, can we split this off so as not to hijack this thread?

 Either I haven't seen the split-off or hijacking is no longer an issue.  Sooooo...

 I've never been able to fully understand Judaism as an ethnicity for the simple fact that there are Ashkenazi Jews (White/Caucasian), Sephardic Jews (Mediterranean/Spanish), Mizrahim Jews (Near Eastern/Arabic), Ethiopian Jews (African/Black), and a few others (Indian?).  We can clearly see where it might be confusing when some posit Judaism is an ethnicity.

Just came across this:
Quote
DNA links prove Jews are a ‘race,' says genetics expert
Conjuring fear of Nazism and anti-Semitism, Jews recoil from the thought that Judaism might be a race, but medical geneticist Harry Ostrer insists the 'biological basis of Jewishness' cannot be ignored.

In his new book, “Legacy: A Genetic History of the Jewish People,” Harry Ostrer, a medical geneticist and professor at Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York, claims that Jews are different, and the differences are not just skin deep. Jews exhibit, he writes, a distinctive genetic signature. Considering that the Nazis tried to exterminate Jews based on their supposed racial distinctiveness, such a conclusion might be a cause for concern. But Ostrer sees it as central to Jewish identity.
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/dna-links-prove-jews-are-a-race-says-genetics-expert-1.428664
Please explain how a Chinese Jew, an Ethiopian Jew and a Sephardic Jew belong to the same race.
Also, how did Sammy Davis Jr. change his race by converting and becoming a Jew?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 13, 2013, 09:55:38 PM
He was still, in essence, a "jew" nevertheless.

What's the 'essence' of being a Jew as far as you're concerned?

No, their religion/belief system believes they still remain a Jew, always and forever.
The eternal Jew, hey?  ;)
What about Marx's daughters? Are they Jewish

Again, even the Jews will admit this. I don't understand why people like you can't grasp the fact that Judaism is a racial religion, just because one converts to this or that or even embraces no belief at all, it still doesn't exempt him from being a Jew. Why then would there be Christian Jews or Muslim Jews or Buddhist Jews or even atheist Jews? We even have many Orthodox "Jews" on this board, so why is it so sacrilege to confirm what the Jews themselves have never denied? Once one is born a Jew, he's a Jew for life. It's like a club with permanent membership, all you have to do is be born in the right place. This is not "hate" in acknowledging this, just the bitter truth.
Because Marx wasn't religiously a Jew. You're saying that Jewishness is a 'racial religion' - well Marx might be 'racially' a Jew, but he wasn't the religious Jew, so he's not Jewish by your own definition!

I believe the one Jew grandparent thing was not sufficient enough to pass the Mischling Test in most cases.
What stats do you have for this?
Very few were "condemned to death". At any rate, as I stated earlier, I refuse to get into a debate about Jews and the "holocaust" on this or most threads, people really can't have a rational and factual discussion without all kinds of fanatical and fantastical accusations.
You're not able to have a rational discussion?

You are quite insane. I insist you prove where anyone on here defended any "murderers".
You've already done this by justifying Germany's war - by blaming the French and British
I'm curious, do you get this upset over abortion doctors? That I could understand.
There's a debate on this which I'm involved in
The Jews still consider him a racial/ethnic Jew regardless.
That's a redundancy: Jews consider themselves Jews!

However we're talking about Marx. I raise the fact that he didn't identify himself as a Jew and you raise in response:

a) Jews are always Jews
and
b) Jews consider themselves Jews
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 13, 2013, 10:05:29 PM
My posts merely point a few things, namely that many Jews were complicit in some way for the Nazi "blowback"

When you reduce the Holocaust to 'blowback' you're defending the systematic murder of Jews! Despite your constant claims you
a) don't want to discuss it, and;
b) you're not offering an apology for it

Your posts do exactly that
against much of organized Jewry and their Communist allies.
Which is, as pointed out, based on your assumptions re: Jewry, and also evidence I've rebutted - evidence from sites that get their facts wrong
Also, that the Anglos were on board for the very war you refuse to concieve that they started and agitated from the beginning. I just believe there is much more to the story of the origins of WWII than the Germans or NS were just a "evil" race of people who just woke up one day hating Jews and starting a world war.
So Jews, Communists, Britons, French, etc. are responsible for Germans murdering!

Gotcha!

Many of them actually were and let's not forget the Allied genocide of places like Dresden and the mass murder and rape of German civilians by the Red Army that wonderful "ally" of Britain and America.
that's different.

You said that people advocated the extinction of the Germans (by having them all shot). Now you change this to 'many'.

I think that's the essence of the problem your argument has; you continually mix up terminologies.
I agree, been to "Free" and " Democratic" Germany lately?

No one is allowed to question the official ADL version of the "holoco$t" without the threat of arrest, fines and imprisonment.
Again you're confusing things. You equate 'freedom' as the right to lie. If you're denied the right to slander (as you are in the US, Australia etc.) that's not a reduction in freedom!

Your posts continually exhibit this warped sense:

a) German murder is okay

b) British murder is not

etc.

Freedom = right to go on spinning lies

etc.

They will even go after Catholic Bishops in charging them with heresy about questioning any aspect of the holocaust religion. even the pope is challenged to go along with the program or else. This modern day "McCarthyism" over the the holocaust religion hasn't been seen since the Salem witch trials. Absolute madness.
What is a 'holocaust religion'?

Germany was predominately Christian when it elected Hitler Chancellor in 1933.
I agree, but I'm not talking about then, but now, where we have the benefit of hindsight and can see the evil of Nazism - well most can. Some choose to think black is white and then decry people for trying to stop them saying it!

You can argue against yourself continually (such as denying you're a denier, then arguing everything in favour of holocaust denial!)
Having said that;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskonkordat
See above
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 13, 2013, 10:06:40 PM
Please explain how a Chinese Jew, an Ethiopian Jew and a Sephardic Jew belong to the same race.
Also, how did Sammy Davis Jr. change his race by converting and becoming a Jew?


The Jews of Yemen, also are 'ethnically' Arab. This has been shown by DNA testing.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 13, 2013, 10:10:45 PM
Many of them actually were and let's not forget the Allied genocide of places like Dresden and the mass murder and rape of German civilians by the Red Army that wonderful "ally" of Britain and America.

No one denies the revenge the Russians took on Germany! That's the problem with your arguments! Whilst you deny the holocaust you raise issues that are significantly less brutal (as some weird tu quoque defence of Nazism), that no one denies, anyway! You're continually confusing points.

The bombing of Dresden's another issue apart from the Russian revenge. It's simply one of whether during the war, the city was a legitimate target or not. Given that it was in Germany, and Germany was at war (which they started), then yes it was.

If Germany didn't want Dresden bombed they could have surrendered earlier.

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 14, 2013, 07:05:07 AM
What we end up seeing is a strange apology for evil; and it's illogic is prove in argument that is self-refuting.

It seems that the Germans were forced to exterminate Jews because of a Judeo-Communist connection. However then we see that there's a denial that the Germans exterminated the Jews!

So the Germans were forced to do something that itself is denied!

It was argued that Britain actually started the war! If this were true then it's further self-refuting argument because it would then be like saying "Germany was forced by Jews/Communists to start a war, that they didn't start!"

By denying EVERYTHING at once on the part of Germany we see an illogical argument develop
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 14, 2013, 10:44:10 AM
Jewishness is first an ethnicity than a religion.

 I would like to explore this a little more.  Mods, can we split this off so as not to hijack this thread?

 Either I haven't seen the split-off or hijacking is no longer an issue.  Sooooo...

 I've never been able to fully understand Judaism as an ethnicity for the simple fact that there are Ashkenazi Jews (White/Caucasian), Sephardic Jews (Mediterranean/Spanish), Mizrahim Jews (Near Eastern/Arabic), Ethiopian Jews (African/Black), and a few others (Indian?).  We can clearly see where it might be confusing when some posit Judaism is an ethnicity.

Just came across this:
Quote
DNA links prove Jews are a ‘race,' says genetics expert
Conjuring fear of Nazism and anti-Semitism, Jews recoil from the thought that Judaism might be a race, but medical geneticist Harry Ostrer insists the 'biological basis of Jewishness' cannot be ignored.

In his new book, “Legacy: A Genetic History of the Jewish People,” Harry Ostrer, a medical geneticist and professor at Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York, claims that Jews are different, and the differences are not just skin deep. Jews exhibit, he writes, a distinctive genetic signature. Considering that the Nazis tried to exterminate Jews based on their supposed racial distinctiveness, such a conclusion might be a cause for concern. But Ostrer sees it as central to Jewish identity.
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/dna-links-prove-jews-are-a-race-says-genetics-expert-1.428664
Please explain how a Chinese Jew, an Ethiopian Jew and a Sephardic Jew belong to the same race.
Also, how did Sammy Davis Jr. change his race by converting and becoming a Jew?

There are also Moslem hindus and Christian hindus as well. Nevertheless the Indian people believe that they are "people of the soil", in other words, if you are an indigenous Indian (Hindu), that will always be your race regardless what "religion" you convert to.

There is a similiarity here with Orthodox Jews.

Judaism is still a race-based religion, I don't understand what's so hard to believe this, Jews even admit it. I believe that when it concerns lineage they go by what the mother was, not father. This keeps in line with the belief that many believe that you're not a real Jew unless your mother was, yes there are converts but they are accpeted in a different light than the true, bio-Jew. I have friends who married into the Jewish religion and tell me unequivocally, that they are treated more or less as a second-class citizen at the Synagouge or in the very least like an outsider, even though they "coverted" through marriage.

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 14, 2013, 10:45:49 AM
Interesting commentary from an article comcerning "Jewishness"; http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/did-you-know-judaism-is-a-racial-religion-promoting-double-standards/question-2540357/?link=ibaf&q=judaism%20is%20a%20racial%20religion

Someone with a Jewish mom is a Jew. Someone can become a Jew, but it's rather difficult especially in Israel. 300000 Israelis cannot marry their loved ones in Israel, because their loved ones are not Jewish enough. Jewish leaders in different branches generally agree that assimilation in the US is a crisis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_views_on_marriage#Marriag...
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: J Michael on April 14, 2013, 11:05:25 AM
Jewishness is first an ethnicity than a religion.

 I would like to explore this a little more.  Mods, can we split this off so as not to hijack this thread?

 Either I haven't seen the split-off or hijacking is no longer an issue.  Sooooo...

 I've never been able to fully understand Judaism as an ethnicity for the simple fact that there are Ashkenazi Jews (White/Caucasian), Sephardic Jews (Mediterranean/Spanish), Mizrahim Jews (Near Eastern/Arabic), Ethiopian Jews (African/Black), and a few others (Indian?).  We can clearly see where it might be confusing when some posit Judaism is an ethnicity.

Just came across this:
Quote
DNA links prove Jews are a ‘race,' says genetics expert
Conjuring fear of Nazism and anti-Semitism, Jews recoil from the thought that Judaism might be a race, but medical geneticist Harry Ostrer insists the 'biological basis of Jewishness' cannot be ignored.

In his new book, “Legacy: A Genetic History of the Jewish People,” Harry Ostrer, a medical geneticist and professor at Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York, claims that Jews are different, and the differences are not just skin deep. Jews exhibit, he writes, a distinctive genetic signature. Considering that the Nazis tried to exterminate Jews based on their supposed racial distinctiveness, such a conclusion might be a cause for concern. But Ostrer sees it as central to Jewish identity.
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/dna-links-prove-jews-are-a-race-says-genetics-expert-1.428664
Please explain how a Chinese Jew, an Ethiopian Jew and a Sephardic Jew belong to the same race.
Also, how did Sammy Davis Jr. change his race by converting and becoming a Jew?


It's not for me to explain those things.  I happened to come across the article and thought it relevant to the direction this thread has taken.  Did you read the article?  Or Ostrer's book??

It doesn't take a genius to know that one's dna (or race) doesn't change when one converts to Judaism.  Duh!!  ::)  (Or, maybe, by some mysterious, mystical process or event during the conversion process that we are not yet aware of...it does  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:)
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 14, 2013, 11:10:44 AM
Quote
What's the 'essence' of being a Jew as far as you're concerned?

The same that Jews believe.

Quote
What about Marx's daughters? Are they Jewish

Was their mother?

Quote
Because Marx wasn't religiously a Jew. You're saying that Jewishness is a 'racial religion' - well Marx might be 'racially' a Jew, but he wasn't the religious Jew, so he's not Jewish by your own definition!

What part of a "racial" religion don't you get? Is it that difficult for you to concieve or are you just that muddle-headed?

I swear when it comes to the reality of the Jews sometimes people are worse than a stubborn mule to accept reality.

Must be tough going through life like that.

Quote
What stats do you have for this?
You really need to do your own research once in a while. You claim to be an authority on Nazi's, Jews and WWII yet you are clue-less about the Mischling Test;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mischling_Test

Quote
You're not able to have a rational discussion?

Lord knows I try but when it comes to the holocaust industry there's always more heat than light and it always descends into the inevitable name-calling by the Jews and their lemmings and the accussations of hater, bigot and the king of slander, "antisemite".

So I choose not to unless I'm in a setting where I won't be bombarded with this nonsense.

Quote
However we're talking about Marx. I raise the fact that he didn't identify himself as a Jew and you raise in response

Quote
a) Jews are always Jews
and
b) Jews consider themselves Jews
I'm only parroting what Jews themselves declare.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: sedevacantist on April 14, 2013, 02:45:14 PM
Author of Best-Selling Holocaust Book Admits Survival Story Not True
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,334171,00.html

“Defonseca, a Belgian writer now living in Massachusetts, admitted through her lawyers this week that her best-selling book, "Misha: A Memoire of the Holocaust Years," was an elaborate fantasy she kept repeating, even as the book was translated into 18 languages and made into a feature film in France.”

 

The article also mentions that the woman only came forward with the truth (that her story was a lie) when researchers began to pile pieces of evidence together which didn’t seem to fit with the account.  In other words, if they hadn’t scrutinized the story the lie might not have been uncovered at all.  Perhaps now we know why Jewish groups have applied such pressure that even questioning the official “Holocaust” story is now a crime in much of the world.  Researchers say that the popular figure of six million is every bit the hoax that this woman’s story turned out to be.

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Jewish_power_watch.php
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: mike on April 14, 2013, 03:05:34 PM
A friend of mine's grandfather used to have Jewish wife. She, as well as their 3 childred (11, 12, 15) was taken to ghetto and then shot by the Germans there. The children were Orthodox Christians but Germans didn't mind. The man later married for a second time (he had not been captured by the Germans since he was not Jewish himself).

I wonder if you could tell to that man straight in his face holocaust is a hoax. That his wife and 3 children were not killed but they moved to Israel (that's what you claim, don't you?).
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Alpo on April 14, 2013, 03:09:28 PM
What's with the far-right traditional Catholicism? Is it Catholic version of our Holy Russia converts?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: podkarpatska on April 14, 2013, 04:20:43 PM
A friend of mine's grandfather used to have Jewish wife. She, as well as their 3 childred (11, 12, 15) was taken to ghetto and then shot by the Germans there. The children were Orthodox Christians but Germans didn't mind. The man later married for a second time (he had not been captured by the Germans since he was not Jewish himself).

I wonder if you could tell to that man straight in his face holocaust is a hoax. That his wife and 3 children were not killed but they moved to Israel (that's what you claim, don't you?).

Thank you. You speak truth through the voices and eyes of witnesses. The denial of the existence of evil is Satan's greatest deception.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: biro on April 14, 2013, 05:27:41 PM
What's with the far-right traditional Catholicism? Is it Catholic version of our Holy Russia converts?

It may be. I've met a few people like this, and I grew up in a neighborhood where half the people were Jewish and almost everyone had some relative who had died in the camps. It stuns me that some people don't want to believe facts and history. I think maybe some people are just in denial - they know what happened was real, they know it was wrong, and their brain recoils at the idea that something so evil could happen. So they just pretend it didn't.  :-[ Very awful. I try to pray for my enemies, but sometimes, it's hard.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: mike on April 14, 2013, 06:25:32 PM
Another one friend's family story: his grandmother and her friend were in a town doing some compulsory works for Germans (they were both 17 or 20 or something like that then). German soldiers told them to watch how they liquidate the ghetto. Friend's grandmother took that show (you know, shooting children while parents watch, smashing infants' heads against walls etc.) quite well. Her friend lost her mind and hadn't cured since then.

Want some more stories?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 14, 2013, 07:16:09 PM

The same that Jews believe.
Would you think that Jews would believe Karl Marx, an atheist, was still a Jew?


Quote
What about Marx's daughters? Are they Jewish

Was their mother?
No. But according to Hitler they would be Jews, and according to you therefore they would have got what they deserved!
What part of a "racial" religion don't you get? Is it that difficult for you to concieve or are you just that muddle-headed?
Which is not an answer to my question

I swear when it comes to the reality of the Jews sometimes people are worse than a stubborn mule to accept reality.

Must be tough going through life like that.
Which is ad hom
Quote
What stats do you have for this?
You really need to do your own research once in a while. You claim to be an authority on Nazi's, Jews and WWII yet you are clue-less about the Mischling Test;
So you don't have stats but simply point to the actual test
Lord knows I try but when it comes to the holocaust industry there's always more heat than light and it always descends into the inevitable name-calling by the Jews and their lemmings and the accussations of hater, bigot and the king of slander, "antisemite".
Speaking of hate, you said the Jews got what they deserved
So I choose not to unless I'm in a setting where I won't be bombarded with this nonsense.
As pointed out, you both deny you want to discuss this, but you do.

It's one of many times you post all arguments at once.
I'm only parroting what Jews themselves declare.
No. You're not.

A Jew saying what he thinks he is is one thing; you then go to a non-sequitur, by declaring Marx is a Jew, and therefore he must be the same as the Jew who defines what he is.

In no place have you shown that Marx - an atheist - was a Jew.

Look at his daughters - you ask in reply to me about what was their mother. Karl Marx's mother was a Lutheran - therefore if the daughters aren't Jews because of their mother, then neither is Karl Marx a Jew because of his mother not being Jewish.

Your argument in support of murder leads you to such confusion as to hold opposing arguments at the same time!
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 14, 2013, 07:22:53 PM
There are also Moslem hindus and Christian hindus as well. Nevertheless the Indian people believe that they are "people of the soil", in other words, if you are an indigenous Indian (Hindu), that will always be your race regardless what "religion" you convert to.
There's no such thing as a Moslem Hindu.

 In common use today, it refers to an adherent of Hinduism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu

Judaism is still a race-based religion, I don't understand what's so hard to believe this, Jews even admit it.
A person with a non-Jewish mother is generally considered not to be a Jew. Karl Marx's mother was a Lutheran
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 14, 2013, 07:26:52 PM
Author of Best-Selling Holocaust Book Admits Survival Story Not True
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,334171,00.html


So what? If I found an American who lied about his war record would that negate the efforts of all other US servicemen?

I can find stories from 'the other side' that are also fictional.

Helen Demidenko (as she was then known), an Australian wrote an award-winning story about a family that took part in the holocaust (as perpetrators). It was later shown that she made the story up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Demidenko

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 14, 2013, 07:30:58 PM
A friend of mine's grandfather used to have Jewish wife. She, as well as their 3 childred (11, 12, 15) was taken to ghetto and then shot by the Germans there. The children were Orthodox Christians but Germans didn't mind. The man later married for a second time (he had not been captured by the Germans since he was not Jewish himself).

I wonder if you could tell to that man straight in his face holocaust is a hoax. That his wife and 3 children were not killed but they moved to Israel (that's what you claim, don't you?).

Thank you. You speak truth through the voices and eyes of witnesses. The denial of the existence of evil is Satan's greatest deception.

Indeed.

The real craziness is if one points out it's evil and says "Don't speak for this evil" then this itself is turned into some kind of attack on freedom! It's a very twisted world we live in
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 14, 2013, 07:33:50 PM
The article also mentions that the woman only came forward with the truth (that her story was a lie) when researchers began to pile pieces of evidence together which didn’t seem to fit with the account.  In other words, if they hadn’t scrutinized the story the lie might not have been uncovered at all.  Perhaps now we know why Jewish groups have applied such pressure that even questioning the official “Holocaust” story is now a crime in much of the world.  Researchers say that the popular figure of six million is every bit the hoax that this woman’s story turned out to be.

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Jewish_power_watch.php

This is a very poor piece. What researchers? Pointing to some other evidence somewhere else as proof of a point is nothing but fraud.

It is at best a non-sequitur. That a single individual's story found to be a falsehood means that everyone's stories are also false.

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: sedevacantist on April 14, 2013, 08:03:53 PM
The article also mentions that the woman only came forward with the truth (that her story was a lie) when researchers began to pile pieces of evidence together which didn’t seem to fit with the account.  In other words, if they hadn’t scrutinized the story the lie might not have been uncovered at all.  Perhaps now we know why Jewish groups have applied such pressure that even questioning the official “Holocaust” story is now a crime in much of the world.  Researchers say that the popular figure of six million is every bit the hoax that this woman’s story turned out to be.

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Jewish_power_watch.php

This is a very poor piece. What researchers? Pointing to some other evidence somewhere else as proof of a point is nothing but fraud.

It is at best a non-sequitur. That a single individual's story found to be a falsehood means that everyone's stories are also false.


no what's poor is you and others understanding that when I say holocaust hoax it doesn't mean peope didn't die or that the nazis weren't evil, the 6 million figure is the hoax and you bought it into it hook line and sinker
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 14, 2013, 08:20:16 PM
A friend of mine's grandfather used to have Jewish wife. She, as well as their 3 childred (11, 12, 15) was taken to ghetto and then shot by the Germans there. The children were Orthodox Christians but Germans didn't mind. The man later married for a second time (he had not been captured by the Germans since he was not Jewish himself).

I wonder if you could tell to that man straight in his face holocaust is a hoax. That his wife and 3 children were not killed but they moved to Israel (that's what you claim, don't you?).

Thank you. You speak truth through the voices and eyes of witnesses. The denial of the existence of evil is Satan's greatest deception.
As well as the denial of the Passion, Death and Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.


Speaking of deception;


 be-tahbūlōt ta`aseh lekhā milkhamāh
........ "By Way Of Deception, Thou Shalt Do War." (Official motto of the Israeli Mossad)

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 14, 2013, 08:21:49 PM
no what's poor is you and others understanding that when I say holocaust hoax it doesn't mean peope didn't die or that the nazis weren't evil, the 6 million figure is the hoax and you bought it into it hook line and sinker

This is easy... how many died?


My point about poor argument still stands - what researchers? But, try the easy one first, if you don't know this
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 14, 2013, 08:23:41 PM
As well as the denial of the Passion, Death and Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Speaking of straw-man


Speaking of deception;


 be-tahbūlōt ta`aseh lekhā milkhamāh
........ "By Way Of Deception, Thou Shalt Do War." (Official motto of the Israeli Mossad)



Speaking of irrelevancy!
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 14, 2013, 08:34:06 PM
Another one friend's family story: his grandmother and her friend were in a town doing some compulsory works for Germans (they were both 17 or 20 or something like that then). German soldiers told them to watch how they liquidate the ghetto. Friend's grandmother took that show (you know, shooting children while parents watch, smashing infants' heads against walls etc.) quite well. Her friend lost her mind and hadn't cured since then.

Want some more stories?
How bout the one in Katyn where the Soviet NKVD systematically  slaughtered thousands of Polish nationals and blamed the atrocity on the Nazi's? There are literally hundreds of stories like this form the murdeous communists regimes, but we never hear of them because the slaughter of nonJews will never steal the headlines from God's chosen.

I wonder if the families from them Polish victims will try and shakedown the Russians for some "compensation" for the next seventy years?

I actually have a source for my "story".


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 14, 2013, 08:36:15 PM
What we still have is this hateful deceit that causes confusion.

The confusion is evident in the argument; attempting everything at once.

We see argument that Germany was justified for doing what they did; but then denial that they did anything!

We see evidence such as a singular example of a person’s story found to be a fraud, as an argument of guilt by association; in the hope that this one example will tarnish millions of other stories.

And that is the point of the evidence. Not just the Jews, who were witnesses. Not just the Germans who perpetrated the acts. Not just the German civilians brought into the camps IMMEDIATELY they were liberated. BUT, the witness of the liberators. They took stills and film of the camps. Witnesses ranged from the average Joe GI, to the supreme commander Eisenhower – who was taken on a tour.

Germans on trial for the most part didn’t deny that it happened, but only denied their role in it.





Against this are people seeing conspiracies
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: podkarpatska on April 14, 2013, 08:36:29 PM
The article also mentions that the woman only came forward with the truth (that her story was a lie) when researchers began to pile pieces of evidence together which didn’t seem to fit with the account.  In other words, if they hadn’t scrutinized the story the lie might not have been uncovered at all.  Perhaps now we know why Jewish groups have applied such pressure that even questioning the official “Holocaust” story is now a crime in much of the world.  Researchers say that the popular figure of six million is every bit the hoax that this woman’s story turned out to be.

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Jewish_power_watch.php

This is a very poor piece. What researchers? Pointing to some other evidence somewhere else as proof of a point is nothing but fraud.

It is at best a non-sequitur. That a single individual's story found to be a falsehood means that everyone's stories are also false.


no what's poor is you and others understanding that when I say holocaust hoax it doesn't mean peope didn't die or that the nazis weren't evil, the 6 million figure is the hoax and you bought it into it hook line and sinker

Oh, thank you. If the "true" number is say "only" 1,2,3,4..... million innocents rounded up systematically and exterminated by the German state and its accomplices, it's "less" significant? Less of a moral abomination?

It's what? Less evil?  Not so bad?

Give me a break.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: sedevacantist on April 14, 2013, 08:36:40 PM
no what's poor is you and others understanding that when I say holocaust hoax it doesn't mean peope didn't die or that the nazis weren't evil, the 6 million figure is the hoax and you bought it into it hook line and sinker

This is easy... how many died?


My point about poor argument still stands - what researchers? But, try the easy one first, if you don't know this
you show me what research you are basing that 6 million jews died, you are the one with very poor arguement skills implying I and others would think the nazis weren't evil,
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 14, 2013, 08:37:22 PM
How bout the one in Katyn

What? More irrelevancies?


Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 14, 2013, 08:39:49 PM
no what's poor is you and others understanding that when I say holocaust hoax it doesn't mean peope didn't die or that the nazis weren't evil, the 6 million figure is the hoax and you bought it into it hook line and sinker

This is easy... how many died?


My point about poor argument still stands - what researchers? But, try the easy one first, if you don't know this
you show me what research you are basing that 6 million jews died, you are the one with very poor arguement skills implying I and others would think the nazis weren't evil,

So, that one was too tough too, hey?

I find it odd you're railing against my 'research skills' - but denying 6 million died, and not being able to show any research to back up your refutation.

Previously I asked you 'What researchers?'. I should ask 'What research?' :D
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 14, 2013, 08:42:16 PM
The article also mentions that the woman only came forward with the truth (that her story was a lie) when researchers began to pile pieces of evidence together which didn’t seem to fit with the account.  In other words, if they hadn’t scrutinized the story the lie might not have been uncovered at all.  Perhaps now we know why Jewish groups have applied such pressure that even questioning the official “Holocaust” story is now a crime in much of the world.  Researchers say that the popular figure of six million is every bit the hoax that this woman’s story turned out to be.

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Jewish_power_watch.php

This is a very poor piece. What researchers? Pointing to some other evidence somewhere else as proof of a point is nothing but fraud.

It is at best a non-sequitur. That a single individual's story found to be a falsehood means that everyone's stories are also false.


no what's poor is you and others understanding that when I say holocaust hoax it doesn't mean peope didn't die or that the nazis weren't evil, the 6 million figure is the hoax and you bought it into it hook line and sinker

Oh, thank you. If the "true" number is say "only" 1,2,3,4..... million innocents rounded up systematically and exterminated by the German state and its accomplices, it's "less" significant? Less of a moral abomination?

It's what? Less evil?  Not so bad?

Give me a break.

Hey, if we can prove that ONLY  ;) 5,999,999 died, then the 6,000,000 is an obvious hoax!

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 14, 2013, 08:45:16 PM
One person has been unwilling/unable to answer me re: numbers killed.

As Wiki is obviously accepted as a source here* I will provide my answer:
Since 1945, the most commonly cited figure for the total number of Jews killed has been six million. The Yad Vashem Holocaust Martyrs' and Heroes' Remembrance Authority in Jerusalem, writes that there is no precise figure for the number of Jews killed. The figure most commonly used is the six million attributed to Adolf Eichmann, a senior SS official.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_holocaust#Jewish









*- I am an editor of Wiki, under MONTALBAN
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 14, 2013, 08:47:39 PM
Let's try another one...

implying I and others would think the nazis weren't evil,

Why do you think the Nazis were evil?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 14, 2013, 08:48:55 PM
Quote
Would you think that Jews would believe Karl Marx, an atheist, was still a Jew?

Yes, he was born of a Jewish mother not matter how you cut it. I don't believe there's a single conscious Jew on Earth that would believe that Marx wasn't a Jew.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx

"Karl Heinrich Marx was born on 5 May 1818 at 664 Brückergasse in Trier, a town in the Kingdom of Prussia's Province of the Lower Rhine.[16] Ancestrally Ashkenazi Jewish, his maternal grandfather was a Dutch rabbi, while his paternal line had supplied Trier's rabbis since 1723, a role taken by his grandfather Meier Halevi Marx.[17] Karl's father, Herschel Marx, was the first in the line to receive a secular education; becoming relatively wealthy and middle-class, his family owned a number of Moselle vineyards. To escape the constraints of anti-semitic legislation, he converted from Judaism to the Protestant Christian denomination of Lutheranism prior to his son's birth, taking on the German forename of Heinrich over the Yiddish Herschel.[18]

Quote
No. But according to Hitler they would be Jews, and according to you therefore they would have got what they deserved!
Where did I ever say that? I demand you prove your continous accusations where I condone the murder of any civilians during WWII! You are a liar and a calumnizer, I demand you retract your staments where I ever said that I "agreed" with Hitler or anyone about the Jews getting "what they deserved", I said there's more than one side of the story and plenty of blame to go around on all sides. don't put words in my mouth, if you're obsessed with a single aspect of the war, that's your problem, not mine.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 14, 2013, 08:51:30 PM
Let's try another one...

implying I and others would think the nazis weren't evil,

Why do you think the Nazis were evil?
Why don't stick to the OP instead of grandstanding about the magical six million number.

Why do you think Hitler hated the Jews?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: podkarpatska on April 14, 2013, 08:57:51 PM
Another one friend's family story: his grandmother and her friend were in a town doing some compulsory works for Germans (they were both 17 or 20 or something like that then). German soldiers told them to watch how they liquidate the ghetto. Friend's grandmother took that show (you know, shooting children while parents watch, smashing infants' heads against walls etc.) quite well. Her friend lost her mind and hadn't cured since then.

Want some more stories?
How bout the one in Katyn where the Soviet NKVD systematically  slaughtered thousands of Polish nationals and blamed the atrocity on the Nazi's? There are literally hundreds of stories like this form the murdeous communists regimes, but we never hear of them because the slaughter of nonJews will never steal the headlines from God's chosen.

I wonder if the families from them Polish victims will try and shakedown the Russians for some "compensation" for the next seventy years?

I actually have a source for my "story".


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

Now we're playing "my evil is more evil than your evil."   To what end?  There are millions of Poles, Slovaks, Czechs, Hungarian, Ukrainian, and a dozen other nationalities who would support compensation for the suffering caused by the mostly Russo-centric  former USSR.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 14, 2013, 08:58:33 PM
Quote
Speaking of hate, you said the Jews got what they deserved
Again, prove it.

Show me one sentence on this entire thread where I said "Jews got what they deserved".

Put up or shut up.

The only "hate" I see festering here is from the barrage of "Ad homs" as you would say, from you and a few others that would dare question the official version of the origins of WWII and the so-called, Jewish "holocaust.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 14, 2013, 09:02:34 PM
The article also mentions that the woman only came forward with the truth (that her story was a lie) when researchers began to pile pieces of evidence together which didn’t seem to fit with the account.  In other words, if they hadn’t scrutinized the story the lie might not have been uncovered at all.  Perhaps now we know why Jewish groups have applied such pressure that even questioning the official “Holocaust” story is now a crime in much of the world.  Researchers say that the popular figure of six million is every bit the hoax that this woman’s story turned out to be.

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Jewish_power_watch.php

This is a very poor piece. What researchers? Pointing to some other evidence somewhere else as proof of a point is nothing but fraud.

It is at best a non-sequitur. That a single individual's story found to be a falsehood means that everyone's stories are also false.


I guess it's a "poor piece" if you didn't provide the source or edit it yourself.

When one begins to lose the argument, slander is the weapon of choice.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 14, 2013, 09:05:40 PM
The article also mentions that the woman only came forward with the truth (that her story was a lie) when researchers began to pile pieces of evidence together which didn’t seem to fit with the account.  In other words, if they hadn’t scrutinized the story the lie might not have been uncovered at all.  Perhaps now we know why Jewish groups have applied such pressure that even questioning the official “Holocaust” story is now a crime in much of the world.  Researchers say that the popular figure of six million is every bit the hoax that this woman’s story turned out to be.

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Jewish_power_watch.php

This is a very poor piece. What researchers? Pointing to some other evidence somewhere else as proof of a point is nothing but fraud.

It is at best a non-sequitur. That a single individual's story found to be a falsehood means that everyone's stories are also false.


no what's poor is you and others understanding that when I say holocaust hoax it doesn't mean peope didn't die or that the nazis weren't evil, the 6 million figure is the hoax and you bought it into it hook line and sinker

Oh, thank you. If the "true" number is say "only" 1,2,3,4..... million innocents rounded up systematically and exterminated by the German state and its accomplices, it's "less" significant? Less of a moral abomination?

It's what? Less evil?  Not so bad?

Give me a break.
No, it's either 6 million or bust. And the second you question the party line, it's off to jail you go.

Now, where else did they used to imprison people for "thought crimes"?

Think hard now.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: sedevacantist on April 14, 2013, 09:25:12 PM
The article also mentions that the woman only came forward with the truth (that her story was a lie) when researchers began to pile pieces of evidence together which didn’t seem to fit with the account.  In other words, if they hadn’t scrutinized the story the lie might not have been uncovered at all.  Perhaps now we know why Jewish groups have applied such pressure that even questioning the official “Holocaust” story is now a crime in much of the world.  Researchers say that the popular figure of six million is every bit the hoax that this woman’s story turned out to be.

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Jewish_power_watch.php


This is a very poor piece. What researchers? Pointing to some other evidence somewhere else as proof of a point is nothing but fraud.

It is at best a non-sequitur. That a single individual's story found to be a falsehood means that everyone's stories are also false.


no what's poor is you and others understanding that when I say holocaust hoax it doesn't mean peope didn't die or that the nazis weren't evil, the 6 million figure is the hoax and you bought it into it hook line and sinker

Oh, thank you. If the "true" number is say "only" 1,2,3,4..... million innocents rounded up systematically and exterminated by the German state and its accomplices, it's "less" significant? Less of a moral abomination?

It's what? Less evil?  Not so bad?

Give me a break.
so it doesn't bother you that you've been lied to by the establishment with this  exaggerated 6 million jews number? you don't care about the truth  
here's a good book which you won't bother to read
ww.amazon.com/The-Holocaust-Hoax-Exposed-Revisionist/dp/1937787087/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1364207674&sr=8-1&keywords=the+holocaust+hoax

The Holocaust Hoax Exposed: Debunking the 20th Century's Biggest Lie (Revisionist Handbook Series, 1) [Paperback]
,book Description
Publication Date: 2012
Holocaust research is a dangerous business. Today, if a book similar to this one were published in Europe, its author would be arrested and imprisoned. The crime: questioning the holocaust tale. Indeed, researchers have endured solitary confinement, brutal beatings by assailants, ongoing harassment, lengthy court battles, career suicide and media attacks directed against them--all because they presented a Revisionist history of this pivotal event. Other Revisionist writers have been the victims of hate crimes, extensive smear campaigns, fines and death threats. The perpetrators behind these police state tactics are part of an entire holocaust industry devoted to suppressing factual data in favor of peddling heavy-handed doses of error-laden propaganda. "The Holocaust Hoax Exposed" dissects every element of what has become the 20th century's most grotesque conspiracy. Covered in this book is the mythology surrounding "death camps," the truth about Zyklon B, Anne Frank's fable, how the absurd "6 million" figure has become a laughing stock and much more. The holocaust industry has become a tyrannical dictatorship that incessantly manipulates, distorts, marginalizes and manufactures false conclusions to prop up their sinking ship. By taking their hysterical obsessions to psychopathic levels, the charlatans behind this ruse make it glaringly apparent how weak the foundation of their argument is.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 14, 2013, 09:32:54 PM
 
Quote
Would you think that Jews would believe Karl Marx, an atheist, was still a Jew?

Yes, he was born of a Jewish mother not matter how you cut it. I don't believe there's a single conscious Jew on Earth that would believe that Marx wasn't a Jew.[/quote]
So his daughters weren't Jewish because of their mother, but Karl is because of his mother?

Where did I ever say that?
\
You have said that the Jewish communists started the war, and that Germany was justified therefore in what they did – only you deny what they did!

Anyway, you're on record...
I agree and post WWI Germany was being raped by "Internationalist" bankers and infiltrated by worldwide communists.

So yea, the victim began fighting back.

Unfortunately a lot of lower-level, average Jews got caught up in it just like a lot of ethnic Germans.

But you are a fool to believe that not a single Jew was complicit in what happened during the Third Reich.

They are ‘complicit’ and Germany was the victim, fighting back.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 14, 2013, 09:35:20 PM
I guess it's a "poor piece" if you didn't provide the source or edit it yourself.
No, it's a poor piece because of the reasons I stated.

I'm happy to re-state. The article simply alludes to research done somewhere else by someone else. We neither see

a) what research
or
b) what researchers

You call pointing that fact out 'slander'. You doubly don't understand the meaning, because not only do you apply it incorrectly in the sense I just stated, but what you would mean is 'libel' (which is in print; slander is if we were speaking in person)

www.dictionary.com is a great site I would suggest you look at
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 14, 2013, 09:39:44 PM
No, it's either 6 million or bust.
Why?

And the second you question the party line, it's off to jail you go.

Now, where else did they used to imprison people for "thought crimes"?

Think hard now.

Thought crimes? If you mean by spouting points of fraud in disagreement with the government - or something, there are plenty of nations that imprison people for slander and libel (remember these are different - in their contexts)
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 14, 2013, 09:41:20 PM
so it doesn't bother you that you've been lied to by the establishment with this  exaggerated 6 million jews number? you don't care about the truth  
You haven't shown

a) that this is exaggerated
or
b) what figure you would give


Along with the question I asked you - what did the Nazis do that you think was evil?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 14, 2013, 09:45:13 PM
Why don't stick to the OP instead of grandstanding about the magical six million number.
Once again you're projecting you both want to talk about something, and you don't.
Why do you think Hitler hated the Jews?

That's easy! He was insane. Know anyone else who hates the Jews  ;)
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 14, 2013, 09:50:47 PM
The logic of nazi apologists would go

It is estimated that 1.25 Armenians were murderd by the Turks.

As we have even less documentation for this event than for the Holocaust, we can deny it happened!


Excepting for the fact all humans are special; the difference between estimates of 5.5mil, 6mil, or even 6.2 mil are a matter of academics. It in no way lessens the evil of the Nazis
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 15, 2013, 12:07:36 AM
Yes, he was born of a Jewish mother not matter how you cut it. I don't believe there's a single conscious Jew on Earth that would believe that Marx wasn't a Jew.

The Jews say it:

You can give your guilt complex a nap on this one. Marx wasn’t even a lapsed Jew. He was a lapsed Christian. His father converted to Christianity to advance his career. Young Karl disavowed all religions and would later rant against them, especially Judaism. In fact, he is better remembered as one of the world’s most accomplished anti-semites. His famous "On the Jewish Question" called for an end to the emancipation of the Jews because they were enslaved by a harsher taskmaster than the German state: their own religion. He referred to money as the real God of the Old Testament. And, probably not coincidentally, he was frequently in debt to Jewish moneylenders.
http://www.jewcy.com/religion-and-beliefs/was_karl_marx_really_jewish

Here's what he said of Judaism:
You Jews are egoists if you demand a special emancipation for yourselves as Jews. As Germans, you ought to work for the political emancipation of Germany, and as human beings, for the emancipation of mankind, and you should feel the particular kind of your oppression and your shame not as an exception to the rule, but on the contrary as a confirmation of the rule.
...
The social emancipation of the Jew is the emancipation of society from Judaism.
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/jewish-question/

Stalin ditched high-placed Jews in order to appease the Nazis replacing the Jew Litvinov with Molotov. (Some here forget that Hitler made a pact with Stalin!)
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 15, 2013, 01:06:06 AM
The Holocaust Hoax Exposed: Debunking the 20th Century's Biggest Lie (Revisionist Handbook Series, 1) [Paperback]

Although you’ve still not answered me I’d like to debunk a few ‘debunkings’.

One claim is in effect “Where did Hitler get all the petrol from to do his evil deed if he didn’t even have enough for his tanks?”

Well they managed to scrounge up enough to burn his body.

It’s true that the Germans suffered fuel shortages, but right up to the end of the war their tanks still moved!

It’s claimed that Zyklon B was a delousing agent and couldn’t kill.

It’s a non-sequitur. A delousing agent that is in some quantities non-lethal to people doesn’t mean it’s non-lethal in all quantities. We know for a fact DDT was used as a delousing agent, but caused harmful effects in the environment.

Zyklon B was an arsenic-based agent. Arsenic itself can be non-lethal in extremely small quantities. It’s well known as a poison. If it had no poisonous qualities it wouldn’t work as a delouser!


Zyklon B is a cyanide-based poisonous gas that interferes with cellular respiration. Cyanide prevents the cell from producing ATP by binding to one of the proteins involved in the electron transport chain.[36] This protein, cytochrome c oxidase, contains several subunits and has ligands containing iron groups. At one of these iron groups, heme a3, the cyanide component of Zyklon B can bind, forming a more stabilized compound through metal-to-ligand pi bonding. As a result of this new iron-cyanide complex, the electrons which would situate themselves on the heme a3 group can no longer do so. Instead, because of the new bond formed between the iron and the cyanide, these electrons destabilize the compound (based on molecular orbital theory); thus, the heme group no longer accepts them. Consequently, electron transport is halted, and the cell can no longer produce the energy needed to synthesize ATP.[36]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zyklon_B

More to come

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 15, 2013, 04:04:07 AM
The Holocaust Hoax Exposed and other misguided works misrepresent the truth.

A Red Cross report on deaths at the hands of Nazis in 1946 states only 200,000-300,000 died.

Ignoring the fact that this still shows Germans to be murderers, the actual findings are misrepresented by Holocaust deniers.

Wiki has an extensive discussion on this:
Holocaust deniers misrepresent and omit information contained in ICRC reports that contradict their claims.[42] Critics argue that Richard Harwood in his "Did Six Million Really Die?" pamphlet could only claim that the ICRC had found no evidence of a policy to exterminate Jews by ignoring key sections of the 1948 report, where the ICRC explicitly states that the systematic extermination of Jews was Nazi policy.[43]

Harwood disputed the notion that homicidal gas chambers were disguised as shower facilities by citing references in the report where ICRC officials inspected bathing facilities. He used their responses to argue that showers functioned as showers and were not part of a killing installation. However this is considered misrepresentation by critics, as the passage Harwood cited is in reference to Allied camps for civilians in Egypt and thus had nothing to do with Nazi concentration camps.[44]
 
 A letter from the Bad Arolsen International Tracing Service regarding only registered deaths at Nazi concentration camps. This and similar correspondence is frequently misrepresented as the absolute death toll of the Holocaust by deniers.

Harwood also claimed that Die Tat, a Swiss tabloid newspaper, published statistics that concluded the number of people who died in Nazi prisons and camps from 1939 to 1945 based on ICRC statistics was "300,000, not all of whom were Jews".[45] The January 19, 1955 edition of Die Tat did indeed give a 300,000 figure, but this was only in reference to "Germans and German Jews" and not nationals of other countries.[46] In a 1979 response to this pamphlet, the ICRC said that they have "never tried to compile statistics on the victims of the war",[47] nor "certified the accuracy of the statistics produced by a third party",[47] and state that the authors of such material have "falsified" both claims that the document originates from the ICRC and refers exclusively to Jews.[47]

As well as in personal correspondence, the ICRC has also addressed this misrepresentation by several other means. In 1975, the ICRC wrote to the Board of Deputies of British Jews in London regarding Harwood's citations, stating:
The figures cited by the author of the booklet are based upon statistics falsely attributed to us, evidently for the purpose of giving them credibility, despite the fact that we never publish information of this kind.[48]
—Françoise Perret, Comité International de la Croix-Rouge, to Jacob Gerwitz, August 22, 1975.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Holocaust_denial#International_Committee_of_the_Red_Cross
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: jmbejdl on April 15, 2013, 04:13:12 AM
I'm not getting into an emotional discussion about all the horrors of NS Germany .


Why? Because it might serve to show your arguments for the drivel they are?

Quote
You can say whatever you want and there's no way to prove either way and of course the Germans will always be labeled as "monsters" who should all be rounded up , shot and burn in hell forever. and that's without ever giving them a chance to vindicate themsleves or hear their side of the story.
Actually, I could prove everything I wrote, not only with documentation (that's easy enough if you speak German, just look up Pulverfabrik Liebenau and see what you find) but also with eyewitnesses, such as my great aunt who was one of those slave labourers and still is alive in Slovakia. Clearly you didn't read my posts, however. I am German - even my 'Slav' relatives who were condemned to the ammunition factory considered themselves German (they were Sudetendeutsch) they just exhibited a few too many Slav characteristics for the Nazis. My grandfather was as German as German could be. He came home in 1914 to volunteer to fight in WW1 despite being offered a place to stay in Switzerland. I would certainly never say any of the things you said about Germans - that's entirely your imagination. All Germans are not responsible for the crimes of their ancestors and some Germans even at the time did what they could to resist. To admit that does not, however, mean apologising for the Nazis

Quote
No one really wants to get at the truth of that time period just a call for the eternal bloodlust of the German people for the supposed crimes against humanity that occured before,during and after the war.
Forgive me if I take the eyewitness accounts of my decidedly German grandfather over your ridiculous claims. He knew what was happening. He said as much. He said others knew as well. He wasn't in the inner circle of the Party either, though he was a member. He didn't agree with the policies but he didn't exactly have a lot of choice about what he could do, nonetheless he did what he could. In my eyes he was hero (he was in the eyes of the Nazi party too but they did love that little black cross he won in 1914) precisely because he did what he could to make the lives of the interns better at risk to himself - that's why the Russian prisoner made ladle he was given means far more to me than the Iron Cross he won. The idiots who would claim that Germans have some sort of ethnic blood guilt for which they should be punished are every bit as prejudiced as those who think that the Jews have a similar blood guilt - but you don't serve the cause of opposing the former by confirming the latter.

Quote
Someone can start a thread on just that, but in some parts of the world, even discussing it can you charged with a "hate crime".
No, discussing it is not a hate crime to the best of my knowledge. Could you come up with an example of one of these places you claim exist. Note that there is a bog difference between discussing the issue and active denial.

Quote
The only thing I know, is the more they try and suppress the truth, the more evident it becomes.

Apparently not, as I see precious little evidence of the truth in anything you've written.

Quote
If your a Christian, you should certainly relate to that.
And if you're a Christian you probably ought to think about whether apologising for Nazi crimes is something that is appropriate to your professed faith.

James
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 15, 2013, 05:46:23 AM
The pro-Nazis continue to argue all things at once; even one denying he's pro-Nazi

I asked him what evils the Nazis did (according to his view) and get no response for more than a day, now.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: mike on April 15, 2013, 06:12:40 AM
How bout the one in Katyn where the Soviet NKVD systematically  slaughtered thousands of Polish nationals and blamed the atrocity on the Nazi's? There are literally hundreds of stories like this form the murdeous communists regimes, but we never hear of them because the slaughter of nonJews will never steal the headlines from God's chosen.

I hear about Katyń all the time. The main differences are a) numbers and b) the fact that only soldiers were executed then. There were no civil victims in Katyń, and certainly not infants (I mean only victims from Poland, not executed USSR citizens).

And what was your point?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 15, 2013, 08:11:17 AM
How bout the one in Katyn where the Soviet NKVD systematically  slaughtered thousands of Polish nationals and blamed the atrocity on the Nazi's? There are literally hundreds of stories like this form the murdeous communists regimes, but we never hear of them because the slaughter of nonJews will never steal the headlines from God's chosen.

I hear about Katyń all the time. The main differences are a) numbers and b) the fact that only soldiers were executed then. There were no civil victims in Katyń, and certainly not infants (I mean only victims from Poland, not executed USSR citizens).

And what was your point?

It has no point except to distract from Nazi evils.

And even Katyń doesn't get Germany off the hook, because at the time of the massacre Germany and Russia were good friends!

Germany agreed to let Russia have control over a large part of Poland
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: J Michael on April 15, 2013, 10:02:23 AM
so it doesn't bother you that you've been lied to by the establishment with this  exaggerated 6 million jews number? you don't care about the truth  
You haven't shown

a) that this is exaggerated
or
b) what figure you would give


Along with the question I asked you - what did the Nazis do that you think was evil?


I, too, would like to hear either from Charles Martel or Sedevecantist the answers to those questions.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: mike on April 15, 2013, 10:10:59 AM
I actually have a source for my "story".

So do I:

http://www.ab-ba.com.pl/page.php?id=90
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 15, 2013, 05:33:24 PM
 
Quote
So his daughters weren't Jewish because of their mother, but Karl is because of his mother?

Marx was a Jew, both his parents were born Jewish, end of story, regardless how many bogus articles you produce by other Jews bemoaning the point he wasn't, The Wiki article even says his parents "converted" to escape "antisemitism", so he was in effect still of Jewish blood and most likely a Marrano Christian at that. Why do you continue to go down this road of denial that the father of Communism was  not a Jew when the whole world except you and a few on this forum know this?


Quote
You have said that the Jewish communists started the war, and that Germany was justified therefore in what they did – only you deny what they did!

No, I said there was a Communist threat in Europe and Germany in particular during the Nazi rise to power and the build-up before the war and many Jews were influential with them as well as anti-German feeling  since they were beginning to have Nationalist leanings and many Zionist Jews were tied in to the internationalist bankers that were trying to manipulate the German markets. Believe me, it wasn't just the "Jews" that were attacking Germany at the time, the Germans were still trying to recover from a world war that they neither wanted or started and never really surrendered but had to bear the burden for that crushed them as a people and nation.

The German Nationalists fought back against not just the Jewish Communists but all sorts of Leftists, liberals, Democrats, Western usurpers, etc. they were trying to establish a Germany for Germans first and believed in a labor-backed economy, not Internationalist bankers cre4ating money out of nothing and loading Germany with insurmountable debt that they would never pay off, like we;re dealing with in this country today, like they're dealing with in Europe as well. There's a lot more to the war than just "hitler was evil" and killed a lot of Jews. Yea, I know, I get it already. so let's start from the beginning like I was trying to answer the OP about WHY Hitler "hated" the Jews. Let's try and stay on topic and not go on salivating rants about the holoco$t or how much of a Nazi "sympathizer" I am.

Are you able to critically think for yourself or are you just gonna  just shoot off a thousand posts in a row about how many Jews those evil ol nazis killed? a lot of of people died in that war, millions and millions of Asians that you holocausters barely even mention, It's a tragedy on all ends. But i'm not here to discuss why each and every soul was lost on a war that wasn't good for anyone's interests.

Let's hear from you, why Hitler hated the Jews, that's it.


 
 

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: mike on April 15, 2013, 05:37:23 PM
The German Nationalists fought back against not just the Jewish Communists but all sorts of Leftists, liberals, Democrats, Western usurpers, etc. they were trying to establish a Germany for Germans first and believed in a labor-backed economy, not Internationalist bankers cre4ating money out of nothing and loading Germany with insurmountable debt that they would never pay off, like we;re dealing with in this country today, like they're dealing with in Europe as well. There's a lot more to the war than just "hitler was evil" and killed a lot of Jews. Yea, I know, I get it already. so let's start from the beginning like I was trying to answer the OP about WHY Hitler "hated" the Jews. Let's try and stay on topic and not go on salivating rants about the holoco$t or how much of a Nazi "sympathizer" I am.

Emphasis mine. I'm kinda surprised you discuss Hitler despite not even knowing what NSDAP stands for.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 15, 2013, 05:39:33 PM
Quote
Quote from: Charles Martel on April 05, 2013, 05:11:26 AM
I agree and post WWI Germany was being raped by "Internationalist" bankers and infiltrated by worldwide communists.

So yea, the victim began fighting back.

Unfortunately a lot of lower-level, average Jews got caught up in it just like a lot of ethnic Germans.

But you are a fool to believe that not a single Jew was complicit in what happened during the Third Reich.


They are ‘complicit’ and Germany was the victim, fighting back.
So where did I state that all Jews should've been murdered in Germany at that time?

I didn't but that is what you are implying.

Enough with the detraction and calumny.

Try to stay on point.


Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 15, 2013, 05:42:26 PM
The German Nationalists fought back against not just the Jewish Communists but all sorts of Leftists, liberals, Democrats, Western usurpers, etc. they were trying to establish a Germany for Germans first and believed in a labor-backed economy, not Internationalist bankers cre4ating money out of nothing and loading Germany with insurmountable debt that they would never pay off, like we;re dealing with in this country today, like they're dealing with in Europe as well. There's a lot more to the war than just "hitler was evil" and killed a lot of Jews. Yea, I know, I get it already. so let's start from the beginning like I was trying to answer the OP about WHY Hitler "hated" the Jews. Let's try and stay on topic and not go on salivating rants about the holoco$t or how much of a Nazi "sympathizer" I am.

Emphasis mine. I'm kinda surprised you discuss Hitler despite not even knowing what NSDAP stands for.
[/quote It was born from the German Workers Party. They were not Leftists. they were not Democratists.

What is your point?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: mike on April 15, 2013, 05:49:56 PM
Hitler was a member of a Leftist party. And you say he hated leftists? The ends don't match.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 15, 2013, 06:11:18 PM
Hitler was a member of a Leftist party. And you say he hated leftists? The ends don't match.
According to whom? If anything, Nazis are always accused of being Exterme Right Wing.

Try again Michal.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 15, 2013, 06:11:48 PM
Marx was a Jew, both his parents were born Jewish, end of story, regardless how many bogus articles you produce by other Jews bemoaning the point he wasn't,
You said none would say otherwise.
The Wiki article even says his parents "converted" to escape "antisemitism", so he was in effect still of Jewish blood and most likely a Marrano Christian at that. Why do you continue to go down this road of denial that the father of Communism was  not a Jew when the whole world except you and a few on this forum know this?
I don’t deny that he might be classed ethnically as a Jew. But that was my point. I was asking you about this and you insisted that his Jewishness was as defined as other Jews, not as the Nazis would have; by race.

His Jewishness ended when he himself became an atheist; he even declared himself anti-Jewish (religion).

That’s just part of your confused argument. You want to deny you’re following the racist stereo-type of the Nazis – and then you revert to a position that he’s always a Jew!

I haven’t even begun to tear apart your non-sequitur linking Judaism to Communism, because as practiced by Stalin it’s a very different form of Communism from Marxism.

I am a socialist. I have my socialism based on Christianity. I have a friend who’s an atheist and a Trotskyist. He would argue against that form of Communism in the Soviet Union under Stalin – Germany’s former friend, is based on
a)   Judaism, or;
b)   Marx

No, I said there was a Communist threat in Europe and Germany in particular during the Nazi rise to power and the build-up before the war and many Jews were influential with them as well as anti-German feeling  since they were beginning to have Nationalist leanings and many Zionist Jews were tied in to the internationalist bankers that were trying to manipulate the German markets.
These same Communists that the Nazis signed a treaty with?

Even before the Nazis came to power the Communist government in Russia was allowing Germans to train in their clandestine build-up of their armed forces
Believe me, it wasn't just the "Jews" that were attacking Germany at the time, the Germans were still trying to recover from a world war that they neither wanted or started and never really surrendered but had to bear the burden for that crushed them as a people and nation.
The silliness of this is that Jews fought FOR Germany in World War One, but were excluded by racism
The German Nationalists fought back against not just the Jewish Communists but all sorts of Leftists, liberals, Democrats, Western usurpers, etc. they were trying to establish a Germany for Germans first and believed in a labor-backed economy, not Internationalist bankers cre4ating money out of nothing and loading Germany with insurmountable debt that they would never pay off, like we;re dealing with in this country today, like they're dealing with in Europe as well. There's a lot more to the war than just "hitler was evil" and killed a lot of Jews. Yea, I know, I get it already. so let's start from the beginning like I was trying to answer the OP about WHY Hitler "hated" the Jews. Let's try and stay on topic and not go on salivating rants about the holoco$t or how much of a Nazi "sympathizer" I am.
And now you’re back to justifying Hitler. You keep putting on record this stream of self-contradictory posts
Are you able to critically think for yourself or are you just gonna  just shoot off a thousand posts in a row about how many Jews those evil ol nazis killed? a lot of of people died in that war, millions and millions of Asians that you holocausters barely even mention, It's a tragedy on all ends. But i'm not here to discuss why each and every soul was lost on a war that wasn't good for anyone's interests.
That’s a further non-sequitur.

“The holocausters barely mention” – a Jewish group dedicated to mentioning how many died in the Holocaust are indeed not going to mention how many died from another side. I look at pictures of the Vietnam memorial in Washington, and it’s full of the names of American servicemen. No Vietnamese communist names are recorded. We Australians were you allies. I don’t see Australians mentioned. I could rant “Americans barely mention others killed” too! But it’s silly. It’s ‘normal’ for a memorial to one thing doesn’t deal with other things.

Let's hear from you, why Hitler hated the Jews, that's it.
I already answered this – he was insane. I did this very succinctly. Perhaps you missed it?


Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 15, 2013, 06:13:55 PM
Hitler was a member of a Leftist party. And you say he hated leftists? The ends don't match.
According to whom? If anything, Nazis are always accused of being Exterme Right Wing.

Try again Michal.

You probably should read up on this. The Nazis started out as the "National Socialists", and were against industrialists -whom they blamed for the ills of Germany and the world.

Later Hitler, who was a cowardly opportunist saw that he would be able to rise to power with the backing of big money.

This caused a split in his party, with Ernst Rohm advocating the trational Nazi line.

Hitler had him liquidated (I'm sure you've got a justification for that too).




Mussolini also started out as a leftist.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: mike on April 15, 2013, 06:15:10 PM
Hitler was a member of a Leftist party. And you say he hated leftists? The ends don't match.
According to whom? If anything, Nazis are always accused of being Exterme Right Wing.

Try again Michal.

According to himself. "National Socialist German Workers' Party". Get back to primary school until you start discussing history.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 15, 2013, 06:16:46 PM
Quote
Quote from: Charles Martel on April 05, 2013, 05:11:26 AM
I agree and post WWI Germany was being raped by "Internationalist" bankers and infiltrated by worldwide communists.

So yea, the victim began fighting back.

Unfortunately a lot of lower-level, average Jews got caught up in it just like a lot of ethnic Germans.

But you are a fool to believe that not a single Jew was complicit in what happened during the Third Reich.


They are ‘complicit’ and Germany was the victim, fighting back.
So where did I state that all Jews should've been murdered in Germany at that time?

I didn't but that is what you are implying.

Enough with the detraction and calumny.

Try to stay on point.




I've already covered this, but you've ignored it. It's another example of you trying all arguments at once. You don’t have ‘a point’. You have several mutually exclusive points.

You both argue that

a) the Germans were justified in reacting against Jews
and
b) that they didn't do anything

How did they justifiably (in your mind) react against the Jews?

I asked your cohort how many Jews he thinks they murdered (and he won’t answer)
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 15, 2013, 07:10:48 PM
Quote
is Jewishness ended when he himself became an atheist; he even declared himself anti-Jewish (religion).

Jews say different.


 Who is a Jew?
A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism.

It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do. A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew, even in the eyes of the most liberal movements of Judaism, and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox. In this sense, Judaism is more like a nationality than like other religions, and being Jewish is like a citizenship.


http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 15, 2013, 07:16:16 PM
Quote
That’s just part of your confused argument. You want to deny you’re following the racist stereo-type of the Nazis – and then you revert to a position that he’s always a Jew!

See above post.

Jews define just who is a Jew, not Nazis. not now, not then, not ever.

That is my point.

Jews say you're always a Jew if you're biologically born one from a Jewish mother, end of story.

It's their rules, not mine.

Now who's following the "racist-sterotype" classification of the Nazis?

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 15, 2013, 07:20:48 PM
Quote
is Jewishness ended when he himself became an atheist; he even declared himself anti-Jewish (religion).

Jews say different.

Marx's mum was a Christian!

I'm not aware of any Jew who considers an atheist son of a Christian a Jew (religion). And I evidenced this.

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 15, 2013, 07:22:24 PM
Quote
That’s just part of your confused argument. You want to deny you’re following the racist stereo-type of the Nazis – and then you revert to a position that he’s always a Jew!

See above post.

Jews define just who is a Jew, not Nazis. not now, not then, not ever.
That's clearly false. Nazis defined what made someone a Jew.

They even had someone as a Jew who only had one grand-parent who was a Jew

But if you keep confusing two things, and posting patent absurdities like "not Nazis, not now, not then, not ever" that's up to you
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 15, 2013, 07:23:16 PM
So Charles Martel, what do you think that the Germans actually did, in reaction to the Jews?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: sedevacantist on April 15, 2013, 07:24:38 PM
The pro-Nazis continue to argue all things at once; even one denying he's pro-Nazi

I asked him what evils the Nazis did (according to his view) and get no response for more than a day, now.
so if one denies that no where near 6 million jews were killed then he's pro nazi? are you serious? I am not only anti nazi, I am anti the group that funded him..they're the same group pushing this 6 million jews died myth
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 15, 2013, 07:30:15 PM
Hitler was a member of a Leftist party. And you say he hated leftists? The ends don't match.
According to whom? If anything, Nazis are always accused of being Exterme Right Wing.

Try again Michal.

According to himself. "National Socialist German Workers' Party". Get back to primary school until you start discussing history.
Prove it. the Nazi's were Nationalists not commie "socialists", you're confusing the two., all their policies were reflective of the extreme right. The "socialists" part of their name was a misnomer, a common thing amongst political labels.

You can call the Nazi's a lot of things, but not Leftists or socialists.


Even that crazy socialist duck posting on here can attest to that.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 15, 2013, 07:31:45 PM
The pro-Nazis continue to argue all things at once; even one denying he's pro-Nazi

I asked him what evils the Nazis did (according to his view) and get no response for more than a day, now.
so if one denies that no where near 6 million jews were killed then he's pro nazi? are you serious? I am not only anti nazi, I am anti the group that funded him..they're the same group pushing this 6 million jews died myth

I've asked you several times how many do you think were killed. I'm still waiting for an answer

Let me know if you need more time, or a calculator
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 15, 2013, 07:35:26 PM
Hitler was a member of a Leftist party. And you say he hated leftists? The ends don't match.
According to whom? If anything, Nazis are always accused of being Exterme Right Wing.

Try again Michal.

According to himself. "National Socialist German Workers' Party". Get back to primary school until you start discussing history.
Prove it. the Nazi's were Nationalists not commie "socialists", you're confusing the two., all their policies were reflective of the extreme right. The "socialists" part of their name was a misnomer, a common thing amongst political labels.

You can call the Nazi's a lot of things, but not Leftists or socialists.


Even that crazy socialist duck posting on here can attest to that.

It's one of the most basic mistakes you've made; evidencing a total lack of understanding on the subject

It’s why his party was called “National Socialist”

As opposed to communists who wished “Socialism” to be international
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: mike on April 15, 2013, 07:41:12 PM
Prove it. the Nazi's were Nationalists not commie "socialists", you're confusing the two., all their policies were reflective of the extreme right. The "socialists" part of their name was a misnomer, a common thing amongst political labels.

You can call the Nazi's a lot of things, but not Leftists or socialists.

(numbers got wrong)

Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Program
1. We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to sustain the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) are to be expelled from the Reich.
2. All citizens must have equal rights and obligations.
3. The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all.
Consensusy we demand:
4. Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of debt (interest)-slavery.
5. In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people, personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crimeagainst the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
6. We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).
7. We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.
8. We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.
9. We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.
10. We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of allspeculation in land.
11. We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, profiteers and so forth are to bepunished with death, without consideration of confession or race.
12. The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbuergerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.
13. The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.
14. We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army.

You really have no clue what you are posting about. I had greater history knowledge when I was 6.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 15, 2013, 07:43:34 PM
Adolf Hitler:
We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions.

cited here
http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2011/03/25/some-quotes-on-socialism-and-fascism/
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 15, 2013, 07:49:14 PM
Prove it. the Nazi's were Nationalists not commie "socialists", you're confusing the two., all their policies were reflective of the extreme right. The "socialists" part of their name was a misnomer, a common thing amongst political labels.

You can call the Nazi's a lot of things, but not Leftists or socialists.

(numbers got wrong)

Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Program
1. We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to sustain the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) are to be expelled from the Reich.
2. All citizens must have equal rights and obligations.
3. The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all.
Consensusy we demand:
4. Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of debt (interest)-slavery.
5. In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people, personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crimeagainst the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
6. We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).
7. We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.
8. We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.
9. We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.
10. We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of allspeculation in land.
11. We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, profiteers and so forth are to bepunished with death, without consideration of confession or race.
12. The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbuergerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.
13. The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.
14. We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army.

You really have no clue what you are posting about. I had greater history knowledge when I was 6.
Absolutely. I didn't learn it at that age, but certainly by 15

Looks like a basic understanding of Nazism is needed
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 15, 2013, 07:55:05 PM

Even that crazy socialist duck posting on here can attest to that.

As I noted earlier:

Communism: Internationalist socialism

Nazism: Nationalist socialism

Nazis differed from communists in their ideology because they were 'nationalists' as well. Part of this nationalism was based on a definition of nation based on race. They believed in the Aryan race as being supreme.

They were 'socialist' because they identified Jews with big business, and they were anti-Jew and anti-big business

Initially they were very much anti-big business. However they were also, as nationalists against trade unions. They believed everyone should be regimented to the benefit of the state. Big business liked this anti-trade unionist bent and at meetings with Hitler and key supporters they bank-rolled the Nazis.

There was a schism in the Nazi party and old 'socialists' such as Rohm were murdered.

Whilst the state became regimented, industrialists were 'free' to make more money.

Aside from not understanding this basic point of history, you have, I believe, a monolithic view of Communism.

There is not one form of Communism, any more than there's one democratic system.

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 15, 2013, 07:59:06 PM
Quote
You really have no clue what you are posting about.
I have a little bit, more than enough for this debate.

You simply can't label the Nazi's as "socialists" in the classic sense defined by their actions.

Myth: Hitler was a leftist.

Fact: Nearly all of Hitler's beliefs placed him on the far right.

Many conservatives accuse Hitler of being a leftist, on the grounds that his party was named "National Socialist." But socialism requires worker ownership and control of the means of production. In Nazi Germany, private capitalist individuals owned the means of production, and they in turn were frequently controlled by the Nazi party and state. True socialism does not advocate such economic dictatorship -- it can only be democratic. Hitler's other political beliefs place him almost always on the far right. He advocated racism over racial tolerance, eugenics over freedom of reproduction, merit over equality, competition over cooperation, power politics and militarism over pacifism, dictatorship over democracy, capitalism over Marxism, realism over idealism, nationalism over internationalism, exclusiveness over inclusiveness, common sense over theory or science, pragmatism over principle, and even held friendly relations with the Church, even though he was an atheist.



http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-hitler.htm


Quote
I had greater history knowledge when I was 6.
What was that like a little more than a decade ago?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: podkarpatska on April 15, 2013, 08:03:40 PM
Quote
is Jewishness ended when he himself became an atheist; he even declared himself anti-Jewish (religion).

Jews say different.

Marx's mum was a Christian!

I'm not aware of any Jew who considers an atheist son of a Christian a Jew (religion). And I evidenced this.



Who cares what Marx was or wasn't. Joe Stalin was Orthodox by birth. So using similar "logic" all Orthodox must share some sort of causal connection with Stalin's crimes against humanity. Oh no, I probably awakened a denier of the Holodomor and other Soviet era atrocities to add even more surreal absurdity to this discussion.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 15, 2013, 08:06:29 PM
Communism as Marx saw it was where workers joined together (collectives) took over the means of production (companies, factories, etc.) and collectively worked together (having gained an understanding that they have mutual interests; class consciousness).


It was decided that nation-states and nationalism were used as tools by the leading classes to divide workers from each other, and that a worker in France (as an e.g.) had more in common with another worker in Germany than they did with French industrialists.

Their first meetings were called "Internationals" and their anthem is the "Internationale".

Lenin, having achieved revolution at home wished to spread this revolution to other nations, particularly neighbours Poland and Germany.

Stalin was more about acquiring and holding power in his own country. His form of communism was in fact decidedly nationalist too. He liquidated groups he considered a threat to his own leadership.

He got rid of worker’s decisions, but dressed this up as if that power still remained; through Commissars, and worker’s committee. It is still classed as communism because there was no really free capital.

However it can be argued that the ‘nation’ itself was the capitalist; owning all means of production which the worker had in effect been alienated from again.


Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 15, 2013, 08:14:14 PM
I have a little bit, more than enough for this debate.

You simply can't label the Nazi's as "socialists" in the classic sense defined by their actions.

You're confusing things again.

It was noted that the Nazis and Hitler STARTED OFF as leftists.

You then argue that they NEVRE WERE based on where they ended up, which is nonsensical

It's been shown by evidence, from quotes about what their policy was. I've stated what they did. Your reposte is to an appeal to incredulity, again!
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 15, 2013, 08:17:07 PM
Who cares what Marx was or wasn't.
The point is some have cared! Pro-Nazi sympathisers wish to establish a link; a conspiracy between Judaism and Communism in order to justify the actions of the Nazis

My argument has been to show that Communism isn't inherently a Jewish construct (do a search of this thread; that's what someone said! )

Marx wasn't a Jew

Communism isn't Jewish


Joe Stalin was Orthodox by birth. So using similar "logic" all Orthodox must share some sort of causal connection with Stalin's crimes against humanity. Oh no, I probably awakened a denier of the Holodomor and other Soviet era atrocities to add even more surreal absurdity to this discussion.
You should probably read more posts to get a gist of the discussion
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: sedevacantist on April 15, 2013, 08:36:25 PM
The pro-Nazis continue to argue all things at once; even one denying he's pro-Nazi

I asked him what evils the Nazis did (according to his view) and get no response for more than a day, now.
so if one denies that no where near 6 million jews were killed then he's pro nazi? are you serious? I am not only anti nazi, I am anti the group that funded him..they're the same group pushing this 6 million jews died myth

I've asked you several times how many do you think were killed. I'm still waiting for an answer

Let me know if you need more time, or a calculator
read the book and do some digging, all the experts who did any serious research come up with a few hundred thousand, your source for coming up with 6 million was a good one, I had a good laugh
here's something to get you thinking
http://trutube.tv/video/1761/Six-MIllion-My-Ass
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: jah777 on April 15, 2013, 09:12:35 PM
To this discussion, I think the "True Torah Jews" help clarify many of the factors that led up to the event which has become commonly referred to as "The Holocaust".  The True Torah Jews explain how the Zionists collaborated with Hitler and spread anti-Semitism in an attempt to get Jews to depart from Germany and elsewhere to help them establish a State of Israel.  The Zionists worked with Hitler on the 1933 Transfer Agreement in an attempt to transfer the Jews from Germany to Palestine, an agreement that Hitler supported for a time.  In pursuit of establishing the State of Israel, Zionists supported the Nazis and also frustrated the attempts of the Jews of Germany to migrate to lands other than Palestine.  According to the True Torah Jews, the Zionist Jews (who they consider apostates) are "spiritually and physically responsible" for the Holocaust.  Of course, in saying this, they certainly do not believe that Hitler is blameless, and they also accept much of the "official story", including that 6 million Jews died and many of them in gas chambers (though they really don't go into any depth on these subjects).

Among the articles of the True Torah Jews, see:

The Role of Zionism in the Holocaust: http://www.truetorahjews.org/lieberman

Nazi Propaganda was Based on What Zionists Said:  http://www.truetorahjews.org/naziismzionism

Zionism and Anti-Semitism:  http://www.truetorahjews.org/antisemitism

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 15, 2013, 09:36:20 PM
To this discussion, I think the "True Torah Jews" help clarify many of the factors that led up to the event which has become commonly referred to as "The Holocaust".  The True Torah Jews explain how the Zionists collaborated with Hitler and spread anti-Semitism in an attempt to get Jews to depart from Germany and elsewhere to help them establish a State of Israel.  The Zionists worked with Hitler on the 1933 Transfer Agreement in an attempt to transfer the Jews from Germany to Palestine, an agreement that Hitler supported for a time.  In pursuit of establishing the State of Israel, Zionists supported the Nazis and also frustrated the attempts of the Jews of Germany to migrate to lands other than Palestine.  According to the True Torah Jews, the Zionist Jews (who they consider apostates) are "spiritually and physically responsible" for the Holocaust.  Of course, in saying this, they certainly do not believe that Hitler is blameless, and they also accept much of the "official story", including that 6 million Jews died and many of them in gas chambers (though they really don't go into any depth on these subjects).

Among the articles of the True Torah Jews, see:

The Role of Zionism in the Holocaust: http://www.truetorahjews.org/lieberman

Nazi Propaganda was Based on What Zionists Said:  http://www.truetorahjews.org/naziismzionism

Zionism and Anti-Semitism:  http://www.truetorahjews.org/antisemitism



Aren't True Torah Jews a group of radicals who are against the state of Israel unless it's personally established by God?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 15, 2013, 09:38:19 PM
read the book and do some digging,
I've already pointed out massive mistakes in that book. You've not addressed that.

all the experts who did any serious research come up with a few hundred thousand, your source for coming up with 6 million was a good one, I had a good laugh
here's something to get you thinking

So you're still unwilling (?) to answer my question. Instead of answering you suggest I read a book I've already addressed and to go and research this for you.

 ???
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: jah777 on April 15, 2013, 09:54:38 PM
To this discussion, I think the "True Torah Jews" help clarify many of the factors that led up to the event which has become commonly referred to as "The Holocaust".  The True Torah Jews explain how the Zionists collaborated with Hitler and spread anti-Semitism in an attempt to get Jews to depart from Germany and elsewhere to help them establish a State of Israel.  The Zionists worked with Hitler on the 1933 Transfer Agreement in an attempt to transfer the Jews from Germany to Palestine, an agreement that Hitler supported for a time.  In pursuit of establishing the State of Israel, Zionists supported the Nazis and also frustrated the attempts of the Jews of Germany to migrate to lands other than Palestine.  According to the True Torah Jews, the Zionist Jews (who they consider apostates) are "spiritually and physically responsible" for the Holocaust.  Of course, in saying this, they certainly do not believe that Hitler is blameless, and they also accept much of the "official story", including that 6 million Jews died and many of them in gas chambers (though they really don't go into any depth on these subjects).

Among the articles of the True Torah Jews, see:

The Role of Zionism in the Holocaust: http://www.truetorahjews.org/lieberman

Nazi Propaganda was Based on What Zionists Said:  http://www.truetorahjews.org/naziismzionism

Zionism and Anti-Semitism:  http://www.truetorahjews.org/antisemitism



Aren't True Torah Jews a group of radicals who are against the state of Israel unless it's personally established by God?

I would suggest you read about their views from their website that I linked above.  They are among many Jews who are against the State of Israel.  They are religious Jews who see the Zionist movement as largely a secular movement of mostly unbelieving Jews who care little to nothing about following the Torah.  They believe that the Jews were exiled by God and may not return until the messiah comes to liberate the Jews and return them to the Land.  Of course, we know that it is the Antichrist who they are anticipating. 

The True Torah Jews are just one end of the spectrum of a larger movement of Jews who oppose Zionism and the State of Israel.  See, for instance, this interview with a Holocaust survivor who equates the treatment of the Palestinians by Israel to the treatment of the Jews by the Nazis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gsqj3HH4NVk

The case of Jews against Zionism:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnUzx2lDMog
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: sedevacantist on April 15, 2013, 11:14:02 PM
read the book and do some digging,
I've already pointed out massive mistakes in that book. You've not addressed that.

all the experts who did any serious research come up with a few hundred thousand, your source for coming up with 6 million was a good one, I had a good laugh
here's something to get you thinking

So you're still unwilling (?) to answer my question. Instead of answering you suggest I read a book I've already addressed and to go and research this for you.

 ???
how am i unwilling to answer your question, I believe a few hundred thousand , are you ok?
and you haven't done any real research and haven't addressed anything, you don't know what you are talking about
 because you blindly believe 6 million jews died in the holocaust, my little video alone shows how ludicrous that is, you haven't responded to those questions, and you don't have to do any research for me as I already know about these fabrications you and others so easily eat up, do some research for yourself if you care about the truth and stop following mainstream media, do you even know about the illuminati or you believe that to  be a conspiracy theory?do you believe Osama Bin laden was responsible for the events of 9/11? because if you are gullible to believe 6 million jews died then you probably will believe anything the mainstream media tells you and you can't be helped
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 16, 2013, 12:56:29 AM
I would suggest you read about their views from their website that I linked above. 

I would suggest their views are irrelevant, both per se, and to this discussion thread.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 16, 2013, 12:59:05 AM

how am i unwilling to answer your question, I believe a few hundred thousand , are you ok?
You were talking about what others believe. If you are saying you agree, then you've answered, after several days

Even here it's again a reference to some evidence somewhere else by someone else. What 'experts'? If they're the ones responsible for your book then they aren't experts on anything...

and you haven't done any real research and haven't addressed anything,

Your retort is simply a 'just-so' statement of denial. Let's pick one point - Zyklon B can't kill anyone. I addressed the fact it's an arsenic-based chemical.

I already addressed the issue of 6million, as well. It doesn't matter if estimates are at 5mil, and others at 6.2mil

And that's just the Jews, not the many non-Jews Germans systematically killed
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 16, 2013, 01:01:03 AM
The True Torah Jews are just one end of the spectrum of a larger movement of Jews who oppose Zionism and the State of Israel.  See, for instance, this interview with a Holocaust survivor who equates the treatment of the Palestinians by Israel to the treatment of the Jews by the Nazis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gsqj3HH4NVk

How is that a denial of Hitler's attempt at genoicide? If it isn't then it should be in a discussion thread about whether the state of Israel should exist.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 16, 2013, 01:11:17 AM
One of the lies used by Nazi apologists is their denial of 'gas chambers' based on a bait switch.

They claim that General Eisenhower never mentioned these in his memoirs.

Does that mean they dind't exist?

No. Eisenhower didn't personally visit a death camp. He visited concentration camps, where people were systematically brutalised, starved and, murdered. And he wrote about that!

He ordered Germans to be made to visit these camps.

He called his own memoirs a "Crusade in Europe".


He can be seen visiting them:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/Gen_Eisenhower_at_death_camp_report_crop.jpg
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 16, 2013, 02:02:01 AM
erratum: I meant to say above 'extermination camp' - Eisenhower never visited an 'extermination camp'
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: mike on April 16, 2013, 02:36:11 AM
Quote
You really have no clue what you are posting about.
I have a little bit, more than enough for this debate.

You simply can't label the Nazi's as "socialists" in the classic sense defined by their actions.

Myth: Hitler was a leftist.

Fact: Nearly all of Hitler's beliefs placed him on the far right.

Many conservatives accuse Hitler of being a leftist, on the grounds that his party was named "National Socialist." But socialism requires worker ownership and control of the means of production. In Nazi Germany, private capitalist individuals owned the means of production, and they in turn were frequently controlled by the Nazi party and state. True socialism does not advocate such economic dictatorship -- it can only be democratic. Hitler's other political beliefs place him almost always on the far right. He advocated racism over racial tolerance, eugenics over freedom of reproduction, merit over equality, competition over cooperation, power politics and militarism over pacifism, dictatorship over democracy, capitalism over Marxism, realism over idealism, nationalism over internationalism, exclusiveness over inclusiveness, common sense over theory or science, pragmatism over principle, and even held friendly relations with the Church, even though he was an atheist.



http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-hitler.htm


Quote
I had greater history knowledge when I was 6.
What was that like a little more than a decade ago?

Have you ever read the original NSDAP program I quoted or was it to difficult for you to comprehend?

read the book and do some digging, all the experts who did any serious research come up with a few hundred thousand, your source for coming up with 6 million was a good one, I had a good laugh

I don't have to read books. I can ask my grandfather. There were several k of Jews in his village before the war. Only a handful survived it. Rest was killed by the Germans. He saw them being sent to Treblinka.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: jmbejdl on April 16, 2013, 04:03:28 AM
Quote
You really have no clue what you are posting about.
I have a little bit, more than enough for this debate.

You simply can't label the Nazi's as "socialists" in the classic sense defined by their actions.

Myth: Hitler was a leftist.

Fact: Nearly all of Hitler's beliefs placed him on the far right.

Many conservatives accuse Hitler of being a leftist, on the grounds that his party was named "National Socialist." But socialism requires worker ownership and control of the means of production. In Nazi Germany, private capitalist individuals owned the means of production, and they in turn were frequently controlled by the Nazi party and state. True socialism does not advocate such economic dictatorship -- it can only be democratic. Hitler's other political beliefs place him almost always on the far right. He advocated racism over racial tolerance, eugenics over freedom of reproduction, merit over equality, competition over cooperation, power politics and militarism over pacifism, dictatorship over democracy, capitalism over Marxism, realism over idealism, nationalism over internationalism, exclusiveness over inclusiveness, common sense over theory or science, pragmatism over principle, and even held friendly relations with the Church, even though he was an atheist.



http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-hitler.htm


Quote
I had greater history knowledge when I was 6.
What was that like a little more than a decade ago?

Have you ever read the original NSDAP program I quoted or was it to difficult for you to comprehend?

read the book and do some digging, all the experts who did any serious research come up with a few hundred thousand, your source for coming up with 6 million was a good one, I had a good laugh

I don't have to read books. I can ask my grandfather. There were several k of Jews in his village before the war. Only a handful survived it. Rest was killed by the Germans. He saw them being sent to Treblinka.

And to add to the figure, we could try my wife's home town, which contained several thousand Jews before WW2, most of whom were sent to the camps. As of the mid-90s there were six. I know one man who survived Auschwitz and I know several people who risked their lives to hide Jews during the war. That's one town to add to your one village and we're already well into the thousands. Given the size of the Reich and the Jewish population in the countries conquered by it, the idea of a few hundred thousand seems entirely ludicrous. What happened to the rest? Were they abducted by aliens?

James
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 16, 2013, 04:59:46 AM
Quote
You really have no clue what you are posting about.
I have a little bit, more than enough for this debate.

You simply can't label the Nazi's as "socialists" in the classic sense defined by their actions.

Myth: Hitler was a leftist.

Fact: Nearly all of Hitler's beliefs placed him on the far right.

Many conservatives accuse Hitler of being a leftist, on the grounds that his party was named "National Socialist." But socialism requires worker ownership and control of the means of production. In Nazi Germany, private capitalist individuals owned the means of production, and they in turn were frequently controlled by the Nazi party and state. True socialism does not advocate such economic dictatorship -- it can only be democratic. Hitler's other political beliefs place him almost always on the far right. He advocated racism over racial tolerance, eugenics over freedom of reproduction, merit over equality, competition over cooperation, power politics and militarism over pacifism, dictatorship over democracy, capitalism over Marxism, realism over idealism, nationalism over internationalism, exclusiveness over inclusiveness, common sense over theory or science, pragmatism over principle, and even held friendly relations with the Church, even though he was an atheist.



http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-hitler.htm


Quote
I had greater history knowledge when I was 6.
What was that like a little more than a decade ago?

Have you ever read the original NSDAP program I quoted or was it to difficult for you to comprehend?

read the book and do some digging, all the experts who did any serious research come up with a few hundred thousand, your source for coming up with 6 million was a good one, I had a good laugh

I don't have to read books. I can ask my grandfather. There were several k of Jews in his village before the war. Only a handful survived it. Rest was killed by the Germans. He saw them being sent to Treblinka.

And to add to the figure, we could try my wife's home town, which contained several thousand Jews before WW2, most of whom were sent to the camps. As of the mid-90s there were six. I know one man who survived Auschwitz and I know several people who risked their lives to hide Jews during the war. That's one town to add to your one village and we're already well into the thousands. Given the size of the Reich and the Jewish population in the countries conquered by it, the idea of a few hundred thousand seems entirely ludicrous. What happened to the rest? Were they abducted by aliens?

James

I saw more than 20 years ago an interview with a young German Holocaust denier. He was, in the end asked "If these 6,000,000 Jews weren't killed, where are they now?"
He said "That's an interesting question"

But he left it at that.

Maybe aliens took 'em?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Velsigne on April 16, 2013, 09:09:23 AM
Here is the list produced by Eichmann at the Wannsee Conference.  The Holocaust is one of the most well-documented genocides in history.


(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5c/WannseeList.jpg/407px-WannseeList.jpg)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WannseeList.jpg


There are other sources as well.  Rudolf Vrba, for one, had eyewitness of incoming prisoners and access to the records.  His is the amount he calculated for one camp, the one in which he was interred.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: mike on April 16, 2013, 09:46:10 AM
There had been 300 k Jews in Warsaw alone. It used to be world's second largest Jewish city (after NYC).
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 16, 2013, 06:04:01 PM
Here is the list produced by Eichmann at the Wannsee Conference.  The Holocaust is one of the most well-documented genocides in history.


(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5c/WannseeList.jpg/407px-WannseeList.jpg)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WannseeList.jpg


There are other sources as well.  Rudolf Vrba, for one, had eyewitness of incoming prisoners and access to the records.  His is the amount he calculated for one camp, the one in which he was interred.

I would just like to point out that that's a list of the population of Jews, not of how many were killed - because on the list are Portugal, Switzerland, Irland (Ireland) and, England - which weren't under occupation

However it still is evidence becase at the end of the war those nations with large Jewish populations (on the list) ceased to have those large populations. Pro-Nazis need to show where all those Jews went. Certainly not to Israel.


Interestingly they include on the list an ally not at war Spain. And, Turkey.


And it's true that it's very well documented. Nazis were falling over themselves to produce reports, figures, statistics, etc. to show how efficient they were in butchering people!

(They had the help of IBM card tabulating machines).
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: sedevacantist on April 16, 2013, 07:48:39 PM

how am i unwilling to answer your question, I believe a few hundred thousand , are you ok?
You were talking about what others believe. If you are saying you agree, then you've answered, after several days

Even here it's again a reference to some evidence somewhere else by someone else. What 'experts'? If they're the ones responsible for your book then they aren't experts on anything...

and you haven't done any real research and haven't addressed anything,

Your retort is simply a 'just-so' statement of denial. Let's pick one point - Zyklon B can't kill anyone. I addressed the fact it's an arsenic-based chemical.

I already addressed the issue of 6million, as well. It doesn't matter if estimates are at 5mil, and others at 6.2mil

And that's just the Jews, not the many non-Jews Germans systematically killed
no you haven't addressed anything, I gave you a video of a guy going through newspapers well before the war started about the 6 million jews...and what experts are you referring to, the nazi who claimed 6 million jews died?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: sedevacantist on April 16, 2013, 07:52:06 PM
here's 1 of the experts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtOZSqvxK_A
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Ebor on April 16, 2013, 08:15:10 PM
Frederick "Fred" A. Leuchter, the "expert" in the above video, was discredited around 20 years ago.  He is neither a chemist, an engineer nor trained in biology nor toxicology.
Here is a jumping off article for further information.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Leuchter
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 16, 2013, 08:16:24 PM
no you haven't addressed anything, I gave you a video of a guy going through newspapers well before the war started about the 6 million jews...and what experts are you referring to, the nazi who claimed 6 million jews died?

I retorted points about your apologist book's claims re: Zyklon B, the use of the term "gas chambers", etc.

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 16, 2013, 08:21:10 PM
here's 1 of the experts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtOZSqvxK_A

I already addressed the argument re: Zyklon B several times.

To say in absolutist terms that Zyklon B is non-lethal is insane. One can even die of drinking too much water. Having something in the right (or rather, wrong) amount can be harmful.

Leaving aside the patently false absolute claim your book makes about Zyklon B, its function is to kill - to delouse. It therefore has a poisonous quality. It’s poisonous component is based on arsenic.

That’s just based on something called ‘logic’.

Then I cited Wiki directly addressing how it works as a poison.

You claim I’ve addressed NOTHING – which is another absurd absolute claim.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 16, 2013, 08:22:51 PM
Frederick "Fred" A. Leuchter, the "expert" in the above video, was discredited around 20 years ago.  He is neither a chemist, an engineer nor trained in biology nor toxicology.
Here is a jumping off article for further information.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Leuchter


Excellent!
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: sedevacantist on April 16, 2013, 08:33:24 PM
Frederick "Fred" A. Leuchter, the "expert" in the above video, was discredited around 20 years ago.  He is neither a chemist, an engineer nor trained in biology nor toxicology.
Here is a jumping off article for further information.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Leuchter

discredited by who, a mainstream media source? do you know who controls mainstream media?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: sedevacantist on April 16, 2013, 08:40:19 PM
here's a good vid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oinItLYg7qQ
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Ebor on April 16, 2013, 08:45:23 PM
Frederick "Fred" A. Leuchter, the "expert" in the above video, was discredited around 20 years ago.  He is neither a chemist, an engineer nor trained in biology nor toxicology.
Here is a jumping off article for further information.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Leuchter

discredited by who, a mainstream media source? do you know who controls mainstream media?

By real chemists. 

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 16, 2013, 09:01:54 PM
discredited by who, a mainstream media source? do you know who controls mainstream media?

Great example of circular logic!

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 16, 2013, 09:09:15 PM
here's a good vid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oinItLYg7qQ

So, by your rationale youtube and wiki aren't mainstream

Sergey Brin, co-founder and CEO of Google - which owns Youtube, is Jewish!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Brin

By your logic you've just undermined your own sources!

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 16, 2013, 09:09:58 PM

By real chemists. 



Apparently they're not vouched for by youtube!
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 16, 2013, 09:11:05 PM
discredited by who, a mainstream media source? do you know who controls mainstream media?

Also, why not engage in the logic of Zyklon-B not being a poison!

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: jah777 on April 16, 2013, 09:14:54 PM
The True Torah Jews are just one end of the spectrum of a larger movement of Jews who oppose Zionism and the State of Israel.  See, for instance, this interview with a Holocaust survivor who equates the treatment of the Palestinians by Israel to the treatment of the Jews by the Nazis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gsqj3HH4NVk

How is that a denial of Hitler's attempt at genoicide? If it isn't then it should be in a discussion thread about whether the state of Israel should exist.

That link was provided in response to your characterization of the "True Torah Jews" and their views as "radical" in that they are Jews against Zionism.  I provided the link just to illustrate that the "True Torah Jews" are just one of many Jewish groups who are against the Zionist State of Israel.  The applicability to the thread was demonstrated in the links from the "True Torah Jews" which explained how the Zionists were ultimately responsible for the holocaust, both "spiritually and physically".  So, when the OP asks why Hitler hated the Jews, the OP is asking about the origins of anti-Semitism in Germany and why so many Jews died at that time.  According to the True Torah Jews (and many others who have studied this history), Hitler's views and the deaths of so many Jews at that time was the direct result of the propaganda, policies, and influence of the Zionists who knew that 1) They would not be able to realize their goal of establishing a State of Israel if they could not somehow force Jews to move to Palestine; and 2) A great many Jews had no interest in moving to Palestine and would only do so if their living conditions in Europe became unbearably repressive and there was nowhere else for them to flee but to Palestine.   

Regarding Hitler and how he was basically put in power to serve the Zionist agenda, Jim Condit goes into considerable depth about the subject in this 2 hr and 22 min lecture:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ5MeQnmLo0

The short video below is both humorous and sad in that it reflects the fact that the holocaust is unfortunately elevated to such a position in our society as if it were the only mass death or genocide that is of any historical significance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jH4SifmKpf8&list=PL7A2597DA571F3528&index=28

Interestingly, I noticed when doing a Google search that when I entered the word "Jews" an advertisement appeared at the bottom of the screen entitled "Offensive Search Results" with a URL www.google.com/explanation.  The title of the advertisement, as well as the URL, are very general and so I assumed that selecting this link would take me to a very general page about "Offensive Search Results".  Perhaps it would explain how results appear when one searches for certain terms, or perhaps it would explain how Google is not allowed to filter out offensive material due to freedom of speech.  To my surprise, however, this page begins with the following text:

Quote
If you recently used Google to search for the word “Jew,” you may have seen results that were very disturbing. We assure you that the views expressed by the sites in your results are not in any way endorsed by Google

It is fascinating that this special page was created solely out of concern for offending Jews and Google does not seem to have the same concern for any other people group.  You can literally enter into Google any other racial slur and no such link will appear.  This is a reflection of how highly Jews are regarded in society as if the death of a Jew is so much more tragic than the death of any other race, or as though offending a Jew is so much more serious than offending any other people group.  This is all the more interesting in the context of the claim of the "True Torah Jews" that it was really one group of Jews (Zionists) who were responsible for the death of another group of Jews.   
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 16, 2013, 09:26:03 PM
That link was provided in response to your characterization of the "True Torah Jews" and their views as "radical" in that they are Jews against Zionism.  I provided the link just to illustrate that the "True Torah Jews" are just one of many Jewish groups who are against the Zionist State of Israel.  
Let's get this right:

You state this group is against Zionism

I ask what's this got to do with the thread?

You reply that it was a response to say that they're a group against Zionism

 ???

The applicability to the thread was demonstrated in the links from the "True Torah Jews" which explained how the Zionists were ultimately responsible for the holocaust, both "spiritually and physically".  So, when the OP asks why Hitler hated the Jews, the OP is asking about the origins of anti-Semitism in Germany and why so many Jews died at that time.  
So the Jews are responsible for Hitler's hatred of the Jews?

According to the True Torah Jews (and many others who have studied this history), Hitler's views and the deaths of so many Jews at that time was the direct result of the propaganda, policies, and influence of the Zionists who knew that 1) They would not be able to realize their goal of establishing a State of Israel if they could not somehow force Jews to move to Palestine; and 2) A great many Jews had no interest in moving to Palestine and would only do so if their living conditions in Europe became unbearably repressive and there was nowhere else for them to flee but to Palestine.    
SO the Jews didn't really want to flee to Palestine, so Hitler killed them?!  ???


Regarding Hitler and how he was basically put in power to serve the Zionist agenda, Jim Condit goes into considerable depth about the subject in this 2 hr and 22 min lecture:
So the Jews put Hitler in power to kill them!?  ???
It is fascinating that this special page was created solely out of concern for offending Jews and Google does not seem to have the same concern for any other people group.  You can literally enter into Google any other racial slur and no such link will appear.  This is a reflection of how highly Jews are regarded in society as if the death of a Jew is so much more tragic than the death of any other race, or as though offending a Jew is so much more serious than offending any other people group.  This is all the more interesting in the context of the claim of the "True Torah Jews" that it was really one group of Jews (Zionists) who were responsible for the death of another group of Jews.    

How are you aware that Google doesn't have such a page for any other group?


It seems:
Jews who wanted other Jews to go to Palestine put Hitler into power, but Hitler hated them for it and murdered millions of them



Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: jah777 on April 16, 2013, 09:43:03 PM
That link was provided in response to your characterization of the "True Torah Jews" and their views as "radical" in that they are Jews against Zionism.  I provided the link just to illustrate that the "True Torah Jews" are just one of many Jewish groups who are against the Zionist State of Israel.  
Let's get this right:

You state this group is against Zionism

I ask what's this got to do with the thread?

You reply that it was a response to say that they're a group against Zionism

 ???

The applicability to the thread was demonstrated in the links from the "True Torah Jews" which explained how the Zionists were ultimately responsible for the holocaust, both "spiritually and physically".  So, when the OP asks why Hitler hated the Jews, the OP is asking about the origins of anti-Semitism in Germany and why so many Jews died at that time.  
So the Jews are responsible for Hitler's hatred of the Jews?

According to the True Torah Jews (and many others who have studied this history), Hitler's views and the deaths of so many Jews at that time was the direct result of the propaganda, policies, and influence of the Zionists who knew that 1) They would not be able to realize their goal of establishing a State of Israel if they could not somehow force Jews to move to Palestine; and 2) A great many Jews had no interest in moving to Palestine and would only do so if their living conditions in Europe became unbearably repressive and there was nowhere else for them to flee but to Palestine.    
SO the Jews didn't really want to flee to Palestine, so Hitler killed them?!  ???


Regarding Hitler and how he was basically put in power to serve the Zionist agenda, Jim Condit goes into considerable depth about the subject in this 2 hr and 22 min lecture:
So the Jews put Hitler in power to kill them!?  ???
It is fascinating that this special page was created solely out of concern for offending Jews and Google does not seem to have the same concern for any other people group.  You can literally enter into Google any other racial slur and no such link will appear.  This is a reflection of how highly Jews are regarded in society as if the death of a Jew is so much more tragic than the death of any other race, or as though offending a Jew is so much more serious than offending any other people group.  This is all the more interesting in the context of the claim of the "True Torah Jews" that it was really one group of Jews (Zionists) who were responsible for the death of another group of Jews.    

How are you aware that Google doesn't have such a page for any other group?


It seems:
Jews who wanted other Jews to go to Palestine put Hitler into power, but Hitler hated them for it and murdered millions of them

I have provided links that address your questions above.  To flesh it all out here would take up much time and space.  Regarding Google's ad and "explanation" page, the very general title of the web page and very general URL are a strong indication that Google has only one such page and it is solely out of concern for offending Jews and no other people group.  As a test, I admit that I did enter several racial slurs into Google to see if a similar ad would appear.  Nothing appeared.  I didn't enter every possible racial slur, but I didn't need to.  Google will show you all kinds of offensive material about every race and people, but for some reason when it comes to the Jews, their consciences are troubled?  ???
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 16, 2013, 11:24:40 PM
I have provided links that address your questions above.  To flesh it all out here would take up much time and space. 
You don't need to expand their points (flesh out). You need to show why such nonsensical material is taken seriously (by you).

It makes no sense to argue "Hitler hated the Jews because they installed him as part of a Jewish conspiracy."

I would strongly urge you to re-read that proposition in the context of the lunacy it was written. Hitler hated the Jews BEFORE he came to power. He wrote about them BEFORE he came to power.


Regarding Google's ad and "explanation" page, the very general title of the web page and very general URL are a strong indication that Google has only one such page and it is solely out of concern for offending Jews and no other people group.  As a test, I admit that I did enter several racial slurs into Google to see if a similar ad would appear.  Nothing appeared.  I didn't enter every possible racial slur, but I didn't need to.  Google will show you all kinds of offensive material about every race and people, but for some reason when it comes to the Jews, their consciences are troubled?  ???

I searched by the same term and got no such resulting warning at all.

At the bottom of that page was Searches related to Jew

I clicked on racist jew jokes and still got no warning.

I don't what you think it proves anyway.

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Velsigne on April 16, 2013, 11:53:56 PM
Here is the list produced by Eichmann at the Wannsee Conference.  The Holocaust is one of the most well-documented genocides in history.


(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5c/WannseeList.jpg/407px-WannseeList.jpg)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WannseeList.jpg


There are other sources as well.  Rudolf Vrba, for one, had eyewitness of incoming prisoners and access to the records.  His is the amount he calculated for one camp, the one in which he was interred.

I would just like to point out that that's a list of the population of Jews, not of how many were killed - because on the list are Portugal, Switzerland, Irland (Ireland) and, England - which weren't under occupation

However it still is evidence becase at the end of the war those nations with large Jewish populations (on the list) ceased to have those large populations. Pro-Nazis need to show where all those Jews went. Certainly not to Israel.


Interestingly they include on the list an ally not at war Spain. And, Turkey.


And it's true that it's very well documented. Nazis were falling over themselves to produce reports, figures, statistics, etc. to show how efficient they were in butchering people!

(They had the help of IBM card tabulating machines).

Thanks montalban for expanding on and clarifying that.  I sort of just posted it in there in a rush this morning on my way out the door.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 17, 2013, 12:08:58 AM

Thanks montalban for expanding on and clarifying that.  I sort of just posted it in there in a rush this morning on my way out the door.

No problems. The Germans were very keen on collecting data.

Even in the Channel Islands, the only part of King George VI's realm to be occupied by the Germans, they took Jews away

There were hardly any Jews there to begin with...

The number of Jews who remained in the Islands during the Occupation is estimated at between 30 and 50, of whom 18 registered themselves as Jews The registered Jews in the Islands, often Church of England members with one or two Jewish grandparents, were subjected to the nine Orders Pertaining to Measures Against the Jews, including closing their businesses (or placing them under Aryan administration)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Channel_Islands

Jersey Jews and 22 Jersey islanders died in concentration camps (Ibid.)

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 17, 2013, 01:43:12 PM
What caused Hitler's hate towards the Jews than he wondered around to kill 5+ millions of them?

In my opinion,  Hitler's underlying motivation was a misguided interpretation of the bible to restore the jews to the Holy Land - which he unfortunately achieved.  His viewpoint was misguided because it spurns the traditional understanding common to both jews and Christians that the jewish diaspora was created by God out of his displeasure with the jews.  This misinterpretation of the bible is common to many modern jews and evangelical protestants (both of which are pro-jewish) as well as Nazism (which is anti-jewish).  The main thrust of zionism harmonized with Nazism.  Nazi pamphleteer Julius Streicher, for example, wrote in his anti-jewish comic book that the jews should be forced out of europe and suggested they be given their own homeland.  This Nazi attitude was essentially as zionist as that of Chaim Weizmann, and both attitudes went against the traditional assimilationist beliefs and lifestyles of the majority of jews.

I believe that one can be simultaneously pro-jewish and anti-zionist or non-zionist.  I believe that jews will be restored to the Holy Land one day in God's way, but there is a proper season for everything - especially considering that the reason for their expulsion is still valid.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 17, 2013, 02:30:11 PM
Hitler's underlying motivation was a misguided interpretation of the bible to restore the jews to the Holy Land - which he unfortunately achieved.

Hitler was interested in the jews from youth because he was himself a jew as well informed scholars allude such as
'Inside the Gestapo' by Hansjurgen Koehler
http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Gestapo-Hitlers-Shadow-World/dp/0930852397

This book from 1940 was written by a Gestapo agent (who later defected to the British and told his story) assigned to steal a blackmail file on Hitler in the posession of the Austrian chancellor Schuschnigg who was using it to postpone the Nazi annexation of Austria.  The file was obtained from the previous Chancellor Engelbert Dollfuss whom the Gestapo had assassinated but whom had used his position to collect information about Hitler's ancestry including the identity of his biological paternal grandfather who is not listed on Hitler's dad's (Alois Hitler, Sr. but born Alois Schicklegruber) birth certificate, and Hitler, Sr's mom was in fact working as a maid in the Rothschild Vienna mansion at the time she was impregnated.  
 
'Adolf Hitler: Founder of Israel'
http://holywar.org/txt/founder_of_Israel.pdf
 
It seems a number of the more well informed older books make this contention.  
Kudos to jewish scholar Bryan Mark Rigg for making this known in the more recent 'Hitler's Jewish Soldiers'.
http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/righit.html

-------------------------------------------------

The Nazis had a pact with the zionists from 1934 onwards which facilitated jewish immigration to Palestine.  
Two jewish writers have addressed this from different perspectives:
1) 'The Transfer Agreement' by Edwin Black
(a pro-Israeli conservative who has written other worthwhile books including 'IBM and the Holocaust' and 'War on the Weak')
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE2hsaHAEX0
and
2) 'Zionism in the Age of Dictators' by Lenni Brenner
(a leftist jewish critic of Israel)
http://archive.org/details/ZionismInTheAgeOfTheDictators

Title: The Flight of the Wolf
Post by: Dionysii on April 17, 2013, 02:56:18 PM
Gustav Weler

Gustav Weler was a distant cousin of Adolf Hitler who came to the notice of Gestapo Chief Heinrich Mueller as an almost identical double of his famous cousin.  Mueller had Gustav Weler replace Adolf Hitler in the Wolf's Lair bunker in late April 1945.  Subsequent events such as the wedding were a sham using doubles, and Mueller drugged Weler and shot him in the forehead one day before the Russians arrived.  The Russians found the body of Gustav Weler, Hitler'a double in the bunker.  

Russian Army in Hitler bunker early May 1945 standing over body of Gustav Weler (Hitler double)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHA8wnuUaQQ

-----------------------------------------

In 1941 Gestapo chief Heinrich Mueller was informed by the local Gestapo duty station in Breslau that a man who worked in a printing plant there was almost an exact double of Adolf Hitler. He had them photograph him and after seeing the pictures acknowledged that the resemblance was remarkable. He was younger and a little shorter than Hitler. His hair was cut differently and he had no moustache. He smoked and was a bit fatter than Hitler. The man was born in the Waldviertel district of Austria and was a distant relative of Hitler. Actually, a number of people from that area bore some resemblance to Hitler. This man's family had moved north of Prague.
At first, Hitler did not want any part of this, especially when he learned that the man was his distant relative as Hitler was very severe about anyone interviewing one of his relatives. However, Mueller eventually convinced Hitler of the security value of having a double. Ultimately, the man was only used for a few very brief appearances after the 20 July 1944 bomb attempt and during the final week of April 1945 in the bunker. He only met Hitler twice in a secure office across the street from the Reichschancellery in order for him to learn to impersonate certain petty details which could only be acquired from an up close encounter such as where Hitler held his hand when he signed a letter, certain phrases Hitler customarily used when he talked, et cetera. Hitler remarked to Muller that meeting this man was like looking into a mirror.
The double was given extra heel supports in his shoes, made quit smoking and lose weight. The double was furnished with a set of Adolf Hitler's uniforms manufactured by the same tailor. Of course, the tailor never met or even knew of the existence of this man as it was a state secret. Only Muller, Hitler and a few others ever knew about this. The only members of Hitler's inner circle who knew were his longtime personal valet Heinz Linge and Johann Rattenhuber who was the chief of Hitler's personal security. According to Muller, Hitler's military adjutant Otto Gunsche probably figured this business out as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_Linge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Rattenhuber
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_G%C3%BCnsche

-----------------------------------------------------

The Flight of the Wolf

(The following interview of former Gestapo Chief Heinrich Mueller by a CIA official in September & October of 1948 in Switzerland is taken from:
'Gestapo Chief: The 1948 Interrogation of Heinrich Muller, Volume 1'
According to the interview published in this book, Mueller became a personal friend of President Harry Truman and constructed CIA domestic dossier systems based on Gestapo models and provided the CIA with much of its initial foreign policy perspective and knowledge.


Mueller - There existed two ways in and out of the bunker complex. One is through the Chancellery and the other is an emergency exit into the Chancellery garden. Located at a lower level than the upper bunker, Hitler's personal quarters alone contained an emergency exit to the garden. Hitler got everyone used to his going upstairs with his dog for a walk in the garden at night. Usually, the garden was heavily guarded with dogs and floodlights, but when Hitler went up for his brief walks the lights were dimmed and the security dogs removed. Sometimes Hitler would come up with Linge and sometimes alone. Rattenhuber who was the head of all these security operations was also privy to the business about the double.

...

American Interrogator - When was the last time you saw Hitler alive during the month of April, 1945 and where did you see him?

Mueller - On the 22nd of April in the evening, about 2030 hours. I last saw him in the garden of the Chancellery.

American Interrogator - Did...was he alive at the time?

Mueller - He was quite alive.

American Interrogator - You spoke with him then?

Mueller - I did.

American Interrogator - Were ther any other people present at that time?

Mueller - Yes, Linge his valet was there and Rattenhuber came a little later on.

American Interrogator - Was there anyone else with Hitler when you last saw him?

Mueller - His shepherd. That's all. He had his dog on a leash. At that time, he was supposed to be walking his dog in the garden.

American Interrogator - Did you speak with him at that time?

Mueller - Yes, or rather he spoke with me.

American Interrogator - Could you tell me what he said at that time?

Mueller - Yes. He shook my hand warmly and thanked me from his heart for all i had done for him and the country. He hoped that I would see him soon and he wished my family to be safe from harm. He handed...no, he had Linge hand me a leather briefcase and he told me...that is Hitler told me...that this was all he could do for me now and then he shook my hand again, this time with tears in eyes.

American Interrogator - And what did he do then? After he gave you the briefcase?

Mueller - Yes...well now...he walked away with Linge and his dog and I did not see him again. A little while later Linge came back to where I was waiting and I remember he too was weeping.

American Interrogator - Did Linge say anything?

Mueller - Yes. He said, "The Chief is gone. I will never see him again."

American Interrogator - By "gone" did he mean Hitler was dead? That he killed him for example?

Mueller - No, we both knew what Linge meant. He said that Hitler had left, and he would never see him again. Not dead, just left.

American Interrogator - I see. You are positive of this?

Mueller - Absolutely. If you wish me to be specific, Hitler left Berlin, alive on the 22nd of April, the year 1945.

American Interrogator - You...Rattenhuber was mentioned. You said a few moments ago that he came along to where you were. Is that correct?

Mueller - He did.

American Interrogator - Was Linge still there?

Mueller - Yes. He was very upset at the time.

American Interrogator - Did Rattenhuber know about this...departure?

Mueller - Of course he did.

American Interrogator - And he came up to you in the Chancellery garden then. Did he say anything about Hitler?

Mueller - Yes. He said, "The Chief is gone, but now we have a new Chief."

American Interrogator - A new Chief? Was he speaking of Hitler?

Mueller - He was speaking about the new Chief.

American Interrogator - Do you mean Martin Bormann?

Mueller - No. I mean that we had a new Hitler.

American Interrogator - What is that?

Mueller - He came with Rattenhuber. A new Hitler.

American Interrogator - You do not grasp what I am asking you. Who was the new Chief, who replaced Hitler that night?

Mueller - His double.

American Interrogator - We have heard rumors about a double before. The Soviets have claimed a double might have been used. Are you certain about this?

Mueller - Yes.

-------------------------------

Mueller - ...It was a very simple matter for Hitler to come up at night for his walk, with Linge or alone. He left through another exit from the garden and the double went back down into the bunker with another sheepdog from the kennels. All of this happened in my presence so I can assure you that I am not guessing about it. We kept the double out of view as much as we could. There were a number of visits from people really not close to Hitler, but as few as possible. Goebbels and Linge were the best help in this matter. I remember Bormann saying to me in a very worried manner, "The Chief looks very different, Mueller. Do you think he might have had some kind of a stroke?" I said I didn't think so.

---------------------------------

American Interrogator - ...Let us get back to the matter of the double. The Russians found him dead in the garden, buried in the ground as we know. Excellent. Now how did he come to be underground?

Mueller - Obviously he was dead.

American Interrogator - I'm aware of that. How did he come to die?

Mueller - You read the Russian reports. He was shot once in the head with a small calbre pistol.

American Interrogator - Did he shoot himself?

Mueller - No, he did not.

American Interrogator - Who shot him then?

Mueller - I cannot remember. It was such a confusing time after all.

American Interrogator - But you knew he was shot?

Mueller - Of course. I helped bury him. That was a dangerous thing, trying to bury him. The Russians were shelling everything and you never knew when a few shells might land on top of you.

American Interrogator - Was he expecting to be shot?

Mueller - Probably not. I think he felt he might leave Berlin as some sort of a false trail.

American Interrogator - Did you mislead him?

Mueller - I discussed matters with him and put things in a light to ease his worries. Put it that way if you will. He was drugged at the time he died in any case. If he had been captured alive, there would have been serious problems as you can imagine.

-------------------------------------------------------------

In 'The Warplanes of the Third Reich' by William Green (1972) on page 508:

"The sole Ju290 A-6 was initially conceived as a pressurized personnel transport for Hitler's personal flight. Some pressurization trials were conducted at Prague but this scheme was abandoned at an early stage, and the aircraft was completed as an unpressurized 50-passenger transport. This aircraft was eventually taken on the strength of I./KG 200 at Finsterwalde for special transport operations, and in the last week of April 1945, was flown to Barcelona by Hauptmann Braun, the original Staffelkapitan of LTS 290 who subsequently served with FAGr 5, and with the disbandment of that Gruppe, joined Kampfgeschwader 200.
The I/KG 200 was largely responsible for the transportation of escaping NAzi leaders, and the identity of the passengers ferried to Barcelona aboard the Ju290 A-6 is open to conjecture."

-------------------------------

On 27 April 1945, a Junkers Ju 290 A-6 arrived at Barcelona, Spain.

"One Ju-290A-6 was built and used as a fifty-seat transport in the Führer-Kurrierstaffel, Hitler's private transport unit commanded by Flugkapitän Heinz Baur. It was finally scrapped in Spain in the mid-1950s due to lack of spares."
http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_ju290.html

Special features of the Fuehrertransport:

- an armored ejection seat with built-in parachute and 13mm steel on all sides designed to fall free by operation of an ejection handle. Successfully tested with dummies.

- All windows constructed of 50mm thick bulletproof glass.

- area where Hitler sat protected by additional armor on roof, floor , and sides of fuselage

This palne was scrapped by the Spanish in 1956, but Hitler's armored chair still exists.

-----------------------------------
OSS Telegram From Agent Molden 8 March 1945

Telegram 6487, Document 5-55 / 8 March 1945

"Source K-28, report B-1839. In Pocking, lower Bavaria near Braunnau between Zeithen and Schoenberg, recognizable by two hangers and large runways is located part of "Fleiger Staffel Adolf Hitler." Work going on actively in hangars. There is one 4-motored JU 290 being luxuriously equipped with armored plates, bulletproof glass, guns fore and aft, etc. Capacity 20-22 perons. Delivery originally fixed for February 28 for Berchtesgaden now postponed to middle March. Hitler greatly disturbed over delay. Original plan called for three machines but, on account of material shortage, only one built. General Bauer, air pilot of Fuehrer, personally supervising reconstruction together with assembly man Zintel. Bauer also practicing handling of airplane."

----------------------------------------------------------------

British Promotion of the Gestapo's Suicide Propaganda

Since Hitler had to maintain a low profile much like George Bush, he and Heinrich Mueller probably appreciated the publicity given to the suicide theory by British intelligence. As the Russians had complete control of the Chancellery area, the British MI6 sent their own man to do a report. They sent a young Oxford student who could not read, write, or speak German. His name was Hugh Trevor-Roper. Roper's report was later made into a book entitled 'The Last Days of Hitler' which became the standard account of the last days of Hitler and constitutes the foundation of Trevor-Roper's fame. This book contains many outright lies such as an interview with an alleged SS member of the Reichschancellery security detail by the name of Herman Karnau who claimed he saw Hitler's body burning. It has been shown that the Reichschancellery employed no one by that name and even searches of the SS personnel files did not include the name of this fictitious person. Roper-doper also invented Erich Mansfeld out of nothingness, and attributed statements to Hitler's valet Heinz Linge although Linge was unavailable to Trevor-Roper since he was already in a Soviet prison.

The bad publicity which the MI6 agent Trevor-Roper famously received in the early 1980's for his endorsement of the phony 'Hitler Diaries' was long overdue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Diaries

Searching For the Truth
Germar Rudolf's investigation into the controversy between David Irving and Gregory Douglas
http://www.vho.org/GB/c/GR/StahlDouglas.html  
Title: Re: The Flight of the Wolf
Post by: Dionysii on April 17, 2013, 03:32:58 PM
Heinrich Mueller

He became chief of the Gestapo, the political secret state police of Nazi Germany ...  He was last seen in the Führerbunker in Berlin on 1 May 1945 and remains the most senior figure of the Nazi regime who was never captured or confirmed to have died.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_M%C3%BCller_(Gestapo)
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 17, 2013, 03:37:37 PM
May 3, 1945. Pravda: “Hitler not in Berlin.”

May 13, 1945. Pravda: “Moscow has directed the senior officers of the Red Army in Berlin to discuss nothing about the situation in the Führerbunker.”

May 26, 1945. Josef Stalin to Harry Hopkins in Moscow: “In my opinion Hitler is not dead but is hiding somewhere.”

June 6, 1945, Red Army spokesman from Marshal Zhukov’s staff: “Hitler’s body has been found and identified.”

June 9, 1945. Marshal Zhukov, accompanied by Andre Vishinski, Deputy Foreign Minister and General N. Bezarin, Soviet military commandant of Berlin, held a press conference for Western journalists. Zhukov stated that “Hitler’s fate was doubtful” and that “we did not identify the body of Hitler. I can say nothing definite about his fate. He could have flown away from Berlin at the very last moments.”


To this, General Bezarin added that in his personal opinion, “he has disappeared somewhere in Europe. Perhaps he is in Spain with Franco. He had the possibility of taking off and getting away.” 
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 17, 2013, 03:50:18 PM
In my opinion, the political right in Britian and America (Henry Ford, Morgan, the Bush family) financed and used Nazism as a battering ram to smash Soviet Russia.  When ths failed, it salvaged its Nazi allies through programs like Project Paperclip and salvaging things like Japanese Unit 731.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: sedevacantist on April 17, 2013, 05:27:40 PM
here's a good vid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oinItLYg7qQ

So, by your rationale youtube and wiki aren't mainstream

Sergey Brin, co-founder and CEO of Google - which owns Youtube, is Jewish!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Brin

By your logic you've just undermined your own sources!


you don't know what you are talking about, do I have really to teach you about what's the mainstream media? I'll address your poison when you address the fact that 6 million jews was in the papers long before the war
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 17, 2013, 06:10:04 PM
What caused Hitler's hate towards the Jews than he wondered around to kill 5+ millions of them?

In my opinion,  Hitler's underlying motivation was a misguided interpretation of the bible to restore the jews to the Holy Land - which he unfortunately achieved.  His viewpoint was misguided because it spurns the traditional understanding common to both jews and Christians that the jewish diaspora was created by God out of his displeasure with the jews.  This misinterpretation of the bible is common to many modern jews and evangelical protestants (both of which are pro-jewish) as well as Nazism (which is anti-jewish).  The main thrust of zionism harmonized with Nazism.  Nazi pamphleteer Julius Streicher, for example, wrote in his anti-jewish comic book that the jews should be forced out of europe and suggested they be given their own homeland.  This Nazi attitude was essentially as zionist as that of Chaim Weizmann, and both attitudes went against the traditional assimilationist beliefs and lifestyles of the majority of jews.

I believe that one can be simultaneously pro-jewish and anti-zionist or non-zionist.  I believe that jews will be restored to the Holy Land one day in God's way, but there is a proper season for everything - especially considering that the reason for their expulsion is still valid.

So he murdered Jews to restore them to the promised land?
Title: Re: The Flight of the Wolf
Post by: montalban on April 17, 2013, 06:10:45 PM
Heinrich Mueller

He became chief of the Gestapo, the political secret state police of Nazi Germany ...  He was last seen in the Führerbunker in Berlin on 1 May 1945 and remains the most senior figure of the Nazi regime who was never captured or confirmed to have died.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_M%C3%BCller_(Gestapo)

That's false. The most senior Nazi to be captured was Goering.

You should check your wiki link too, because it doesn't state what you have in your post
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 17, 2013, 06:13:41 PM
Hitler's underlying motivation was a misguided interpretation of the bible to restore the jews to the Holy Land - which he unfortunately achieved.

You're spouting the same nonsense that jah777 is spouting!

Hitler hated the Jews. He didn't want them specifically returned to the Holy Land

Also, why weren't the Zionists working with other nations to have the Jews expelled there? Poland had more Jews.

It's such a silly idea spouted by people against Israel.

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 17, 2013, 06:16:14 PM
you don't know what you are talking about, do I have really to teach you about what's the mainstream media?
I don't count Youtube as 'mainstream media' because it's only a service that provides videos. However it's arguably run by Jews! So you're undermining your own sources

I don't count it as the 'media' at all. You do.


 I'll address your poison when you address the fact that 6 million jews was in the papers long before the war
That doesn't even make sense!
Title: Re: The Flight of the Wolf
Post by: montalban on April 17, 2013, 06:18:24 PM
Gustav Weler

Gustav Weler was a distant cousin of Adolf Hitler who came to the notice of Gestapo Chief Heinrich Mueller as an almost identical double of his famous cousin.  Mueller had Gustav Weler replace Adolf Hitler in the Wolf's Lair bunker in late April 1945.  Subsequent events such as the wedding were a sham using doubles, and Mueller drugged Weler and shot him in the forehead one day before the Russians arrived.  The Russians found the body of Gustav Weler, Hitler'a double in the bunker.  

What has this got to do with anything?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 17, 2013, 06:27:36 PM

It seems a number of the more well informed older books make this contention.  
Kudos to jewish scholar Bryan Mark Rigg for making this known in the more recent 'Hitler's Jewish Soldiers'.
http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/righit.html


What is the relevence of a book about people who weren't strictly speaking "Jewish" (only having in many cases a single grand-parent who was a Jew) who joined the army to further prove their Aryanness?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: biro on April 17, 2013, 07:26:49 PM
There were some collaborators, yes. It can be argued they were pressured into it, frightened, made a horrible mistake...

Silly people think this 'proves' something.   :P
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: sedevacantist on April 17, 2013, 07:57:41 PM
you don't know what you are talking about, do I have really to teach you about what's the mainstream media?
I don't count Youtube as 'mainstream media' because it's only a service that provides videos. However it's arguably run by Jews! So you're undermining your own sources

I don't count it as the 'media' at all. You do.


 I'll address your poison when you address the fact that 6 million jews was in the papers long before the war
That doesn't even make sense!

what doesn't make sense is someone who reads the newspaper stories that were decades before the war started that mentioned how 6 million jews were being persecuted yada yada , and just accepts  that 6 million jews just happened to be the number that perished under the nazis, you can't be that naive
Title: Re: The Flight of the Wolf
Post by: Dionysii on April 17, 2013, 08:50:25 PM
Heinrich Mueller
...
remains the most senior figure of the Nazi regime who was never captured or confirmed to have died.

That's false. The most senior Nazi to be captured was Goering.

I beg your pardon. 
The statement I quoted above explicitly refers to senior Nazis who were never captured. 
Since Goering was captured, then what does he have to do with the price of tea in China? 

Heinrich Mueller was the most senior Nazi whose ultimate whereabouts are officially unaccounted for.
Goering is irrelevant since we know he was captured and executed.

If you can explain that to be false, then I am all ears.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 17, 2013, 08:55:02 PM
There were some collaborators, yes. It can be argued they were pressured into it, frightened, made a horrible mistake...

Silly people think this 'proves' something.   :P

Indeed! Exceptions don't make rules.

It makes no sense to say that Jews put Hitler into power and that's why he hated them.

He hated them before he got into power

He would accept support from Jews
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 17, 2013, 08:56:27 PM

It seems a number of the more well informed older books make this contention.  
Kudos to jewish scholar Bryan Mark Rigg for making this known in the more recent 'Hitler's Jewish Soldiers'.
http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/righit.html

What is the relevence of a book about people who weren't strictly speaking "Jewish" (only having in many cases a single grand-parent who was a Jew) who joined the army to further prove their Aryanness?

To answer your question, it has a section that discusses some sources on Hitler's jewish genealogy which is the context in which I mentioned it.
To be fair, he mentions these along with some relevant material about the sources which may assist the reader in assessing those sources, but Rigg refrains from taking a position on it one way or the other himself.  I would say he wrote about that rather objectively and informatively.
Title: Re: The Flight of the Wolf
Post by: montalban on April 17, 2013, 08:59:42 PM
I beg your pardon. 
The statement I quoted above explicitly refers to senior Nazis who were never captured. 
Since Goering was captured, then what does he have to do with the price of tea in China? 

Heinrich Mueller was the most senior Nazi whose ultimate whereabouts are officially unaccounted for.
Goering is irrelevant since we know he was captured and executed.

If you can explain that to be false, then I am all ears.
You are correct that you said "Never". I missed that.

I don't know what Heinrich Mueller has to do with anything, anyway

Thanks for ignoring everything else I wrote
Title: Re: The Flight of the Wolf
Post by: Dionysii on April 17, 2013, 09:01:56 PM
Gustav Weler

Gustav Weler was a distant cousin of Adolf Hitler who came to the notice of Gestapo Chief Heinrich Mueller as an almost identical double of his famous cousin.  Mueller had Gustav Weler replace Adolf Hitler in the Wolf's Lair bunker in late April 1945.  Subsequent events such as the wedding were a sham using doubles, and Mueller drugged Weler and shot him in the forehead one day before the Russians arrived.  The Russians found the body of Gustav Weler, Hitler's double in the bunker.  
What has this got to do with anything?

It is a factor directly tied to Hitler's personal post-WWII survival since the presence of Gustav Weler in the bunker enabled him to leave Germany unnoticed a couple of weeks before the Russians arrived.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 17, 2013, 09:02:18 PM

It seems a number of the more well informed older books make this contention.  
Kudos to jewish scholar Bryan Mark Rigg for making this known in the more recent 'Hitler's Jewish Soldiers'.
http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/righit.html

What is the relevence of a book about people who weren't strictly speaking "Jewish" (only having in many cases a single grand-parent who was a Jew) who joined the army to further prove their Aryanness?

To answer your question, it has a section that discusses some sources on Hitler's jewish genealogy which is the context in which I mentioned it.
To be fair, he mentions these along with some relevant material about the sources which may assist the reader in assessing those sources, but Rigg refrains from taking a position on it one way or the other himself.  I would say he wrote about that rather objectively and informatively.

So Hitler was a Jew, who hated Jews!

I'm not questioning Rigg, by the way. I'm questioning your use of him as a source in what seems to be an exercise in no-relevence.

That Hitler used Germans of 'Jewish' background has nothing to do with the subject.

If they were Jews, and he hated Jews, then you've only created more problems than solved by trying to introduce this work into this discussion.
Title: Re: The Flight of the Wolf
Post by: montalban on April 17, 2013, 09:03:05 PM
Gustav Weler

Gustav Weler was a distant cousin of Adolf Hitler who came to the notice of Gestapo Chief Heinrich Mueller as an almost identical double of his famous cousin.  Mueller had Gustav Weler replace Adolf Hitler in the Wolf's Lair bunker in late April 1945.  Subsequent events such as the wedding were a sham using doubles, and Mueller drugged Weler and shot him in the forehead one day before the Russians arrived.  The Russians found the body of Gustav Weler, Hitler's double in the bunker.  
What has this got to do with anything?

It is a factor directly tied to Hitler's personal post-WWII survival since the presence of Gustav Weler in the bunker enabled him to leave Germany unnoticed a couple of weeks before the Russians arrived.

Sigh.

What has Hitler's supposed survival got to do with his hatred of the Jews?

Title: Re: The Flight of the Wolf
Post by: Dionysii on April 17, 2013, 09:08:08 PM
Thanks for ignoring everything else I wrote

Would it be too much of me to suggest you have a beer or two while I look them over?

While I might not get to any of them today and we may not necessarily agree on most points, I hope you would find my stuff less combative than some of those who seem to be my natural allies here & we can certainly agree to disagree.

I'll give Voltaire that one even if he's not good for much else.  Cheers.
Title: Re: The Flight of the Wolf
Post by: montalban on April 17, 2013, 09:11:37 PM

Would it be too much of me to suggest you have a beer or two while I look them over?
I don't drink (not since 1986), but I appreciate the sentiment.
While I might not get to any of them today and we may not necessarily agree on most points, I hope you would find my stuff less combative than some of those who seem to be my natural allies here & we can certainly agree to disagree.
You might think that my questions of all the irrelevent and illogical posts you've made is 'combative'. Sorry about that.
I'll give Voltaire that one even if he's not good for much else.  Cheers.
I prefer Michel de Montiagne
Title: Re: The Flight of the Wolf
Post by: Dionysii on April 17, 2013, 09:14:28 PM
It is a factor directly tied to Hitler's personal post-WWII survival since the presence of Gustav Weler in the bunker enabled him to leave Germany unnoticed a couple of weeks before the Russians arrived.

What has Hitler's supposed survival got to do with his hatred of the Jews?

I'll give you that one.  I thought it was an interesting perspective to add since the way it is presented by Gregory Douglass in what he claims to be Mueller's 1948 interview was worth being heard, and this subject was loosely related.  

I'll open a separate topic on it at some point, but that's it for me tonight.  I've got work coming up late tonight.
Title: Re: The Flight of the Wolf
Post by: Dionysii on April 17, 2013, 09:17:49 PM
You might think that my questions of all the irrelevent and illogical posts you've made is 'combative'. Sorry about that.

Err, by "combative" I was referring especially to myself and perhaps some of your other opponents.
Sorry for the confusion.  Good night.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: sedevacantist on April 17, 2013, 09:51:50 PM
Zionists Betrayed Non-Z Jews to Holocaust

Nazism, Zionism and Communism are Illuminati movements. In order to justify the state of Israel, Zionists collaborated with the Nazi and, despite the blood on their hands, continue to exploit the holocaust for their political benefit.


Rabbi Shonfeld calls the Zionists "war criminals" who usurped the leadership of the Jewish people, betrayed their trust, and after their annihilation, reaped the moral capital.



By Henry Makow Ph.D
(originally "Compulsory Suicide for Jews"  from Dec. 2002)

On Nov. 25, 1940, a boat carrying Jewish refugees from Nazi Europe, the "Patra," exploded and sank off the coast of Palestine killing 252 people.

The Zionist "Haganah" [army] claimed the passengers blew up the ship, Masada style, to protest British refusal to let them land. Years later, the Haganah admitted that rather than let the passengers go to Mauritius, they blew up the vessel for its propaganda value.

"Sometimes it is necessary to sacrifice the few in order to save the many," Moshe Sharett, a former Israeli Prime Minister said at Patra memorial service in 1958. 252 people murdered by the people they trusted. How's that for fanatical? But the Zionists have the blood of many more Jews on their hands.


COLLABORATORS


During the holocaust, Jewish life had no value unless it promoted the Zionist cause. "One goat in Israel is worth more than the whole Diaspora," Yitzhak Greenbaum, head of the Jewish Agency's "Rescue Committee" said.

Rabbi Moshe Shonfeld accuses the Zionists of collaborating in the Nazi slaughter of European Jewry directly and indirectly.

The charges are contained in his book,  "Holocaust Victims Accuse"  (1977) which is on line.

Rabbi Shonfeld calls the Zionists "war criminals" who usurped the leadership of the Jewish people, betrayed their trust and, after their annihilation, reaped the moral capital.

Shonfeld states: "The Zionist approach that Jewish blood is the anointing oil needed for the wheels of the Jewish state is not a thing of the past. It remains operable to this very day."

Other books on this theme by Jews include: Edwin Black, "The Transfer Agreement"; Ben Hecht, "Perfidy," M.J. Nurenberger "The Scared and the Damned"; Joel Brand, "Satan and the Soul"; Chaim Lazar, "Destruction and Rebellion"; and Rabbi Michael Dov Ber Weismandel "From the Depth."

The implication, which I will explore later, is that Zionism, at the top, is not a Jewish movement. In the words of veteran Israeli politician Eliezar Livneh, "The Zionist heritage had in it something flawed to begin with."


shonfeld.jpgSHOCKING ''HIGHLIGHTS'' OF RABBI SHONFELD'S BOOK:


    While European Jews were hostage to the Nazis, Zionist leaders in America deliberately provoked and enraged Hitler. They began in 1933 by initiating a worldwide boycott of Nazi goods. Dieter von Wissliczeny, Adolph Eichmann's lieutenant, told Rabbi Weissmandl that in 1941 Hitler flew into a rage when U.S. Zionist Rabbi Stephen Wise, in the name of the entire Jewish people, "declared war on Germany". Hitler fell on the floor, bit the carpet and vowed: "Now I'll destroy them. Now I'll destroy them." In Jan. 1942, he convened the "Wannsee Conference" where the "final solution" took shape.

    Rabbi Shonfeld says the Nazis chose Zionist activists to run the "Judenrats" and to be Jewish police or Kapos. "The Nazis found in these 'elders' what they hoped for, loyal and obedient servants who because of their lust for money and power, led the masses to their destruction." The Zionists were often intellectuals who were often "more cruel than the Nazis" and kept the trains' final destination a secret. In contrast to secular Zionists, Shonfeld says Orthodox Jewish Rabbis refused to collaborate and tended their beleaguered flocks to the end.

    Rabbi Shonfeld cites numerous instances where Zionists sabotaged attempts to organize resistance, ransom and relief. They undermined an effort by Vladimir Jabotinsky to arm Jews before the war. They stopped a program by American orthodox Jews to send food parcels to the ghettos (where child mortality was 60%) saying it violated the boycott. They thwarted a British parliamentary initiative to send refugees to Mauritius, demanding they go to Palestine instead. They blocked a similar initiative in the US Congress. At the same time, they rescued young Zionists. Chaim Weizmann, the Zionist Chief and later first President of Israel said: "Every nation has its dead in its fight for its homeland. The suffering under Hitler are our dead." He said they "were moral and economic dust in a cruel world."

    Rabbi Weismandel, who was in Slovakia, provided maps of Auschwitz and begged Jewish leaders to pressure the Allies to bomb the tracks and crematoriums. The leaders didn't press the Allies because the secret policy was to annihilate non-Zionist Jews. The Nazis came to understand that death trains and camps would be safe from attack and actually concentrated industry there. (See also, William Perl, "The Holocaust Conspiracy.')

None of the above is intended to absolve the Nazis of responsibility. However the holocaust could have been prevented or at least alleviated had the Zionist leadership behaved honorably.

continue here for rest of article
http://henrymakow.com/091202.html

- See more at: http://henrymakow.com/091202.html#sthash.iO8b2mJr.dpuf
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 17, 2013, 10:28:21 PM
Zionists Betrayed Non-Z Jews to Holocaust

I agree completely with this.  Among others, the history of Menachem Begin who was a member of the pro-Nazi Stern gang and also famous as the terrorist who blew up the King David hotel in 1948 and later Likud prime minister of Israel in the late Carter early Reagan era is very colorful.

Incidentally, I have an autobiography by an L.A. cop who in the 1960's was assigned to monitor Mickey Cohen who succeeded Bugsy Siegel in 1947 as the mob's overseer for the west coast.  (Incidentally, Cohen was a jewish mobster like Siegel and Lansky.) This policeman's autobiography 'There's a Fish in the Courthouse' says that he and his partner once observed and photographed an older smaller figure whom they had never seen before talking with Cohen and apparently dictating to this mobster from a position of authority.  They ran a make on the photographs, and it turned out to be Menachem Begin. 
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 17, 2013, 11:51:10 PM
Zionists Betrayed Non-Z Jews to Holocaust

You might wish to start a blog site. This is a discussion site. You posted; I rebuffed. You have not addressed my rebuttal except to suddenly impose conditions for your to respond.

I've also addressed your points as your colleague has raised them; namely

a) Hitler hated the Jews before he was in power
and
b) it makes no sense to say Hitler accepted the support of those he hated in order to liquidate them
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: pmpn8rGPT on April 17, 2013, 11:52:39 PM
Zionists Betrayed Non-Z Jews to Holocaust
Indeed, such a shame that all of our "leaders" ever since MLK are Zionists, even more a shame how they hide behind the holocaust as their main excuse.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 18, 2013, 12:04:04 AM
Zionists Betrayed Non-Z Jews to Holocaust

I agree completely with this.  Among others, the history of Menachem Begin who was a member of the pro-Nazi Stern gang and also famous as the terrorist who blew up the King David hotel in 1948 and later Likud prime minister of Israel in the late Carter early Reagan era is very colorful.

Incidentally, I have an autobiography by an L.A. cop who in the 1960's was assigned to monitor Mickey Cohen who succeeded Bugsy Siegel in 1947 as the mob's overseer for the west coast.  (Incidentally, Cohen was a jewish mobster like Siegel and Lansky.) This policeman's autobiography 'There's a Fish in the Courthouse' says that he and his partner once observed and photographed an older smaller figure whom they had never seen before talking with Cohen and apparently dictating to this mobster from a position of authority.  They ran a make on the photographs, and it turned out to be Menachem Begin.  

The US athorities worked with mafia connections prior to, and during their invasion of Sicily and Italy. This and what you cite are interesting but irrelevant to this thread; I accept you need to continually post blog-like anti-Jewish material. Anti-Semitic rubbish that would lead you to note only Jewish gangsters, and not who were the true mob bosses! It's not relevant at all to the thread, but if you want to tar a people then only mention this part. Ignore that the majority of mafia, including the bosses aren't Jewish!

Gary L. Wean the author of your book was a truly lucky man; to witness Begin, to being at Monroe’s house when she died, to getting involved in JFK conspiracy theory! It’s amazing he (and the LAPD) had a data base that included Menachem Begin, so he could achieve a match! Of course you believe him because it fits in with your anti-Jewish stance.

Menachem Begin and Mickey Cohen are apparently to blame for killing JFK to bringing down Nixon – even though these politicians were polar opposites!

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 18, 2013, 12:04:46 AM
Zionists Betrayed Non-Z Jews to Holocaust
Indeed, such a shame that all of our "leaders" ever since MLK are Zionists, even more a shame how they hide behind the holocaust as their main excuse.

I hope you're being ironic
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 18, 2013, 12:08:37 AM
    Rabbi Weismandel, who was in Slovakia, provided maps of Auschwitz and begged Jewish leaders to pressure the Allies to bomb the tracks and crematoriums. The leaders didn't press the Allies because the secret policy was to annihilate non-Zionist Jews. The Nazis came to understand that death trains and camps would be safe from attack and actually concentrated industry there. (See also, William Perl, "The Holocaust Conspiracy.')

None of the above is intended to absolve the Nazis of responsibility. However the holocaust could have been prevented or at least alleviated had the Zionist leadership behaved honorably.

If you read this it makes no sense. Jews provided maps, and pressured the allies to bomb, but then didn’t press the allies because it was their secret policy to kill off Jews in the camps.

So why would they provide maps and press them to bomb, but then not to press them to bomb?

It makes no sense at all.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 18, 2013, 12:12:34 AM
Among others, the history of Menachem Begin who was a member of the pro-Nazi Stern gang

Where do you have evidence that they were pro-Nazi?

I always understood that Begin was a member of the Irgun, not the Stern gang.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 18, 2013, 12:26:22 AM
Hannah Arendt wrote to US authorities against Begin. She called his racist tactics ‘Nazi-like’*

She was a zionist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannah_Arendt

The theory that Begin was trying to kill non-zionists is flawed. There are zionists who didn’t like his methods. Just as there were/are Irish nationalists who never supported the IRA. Zionism might itself be labelled racist, but Zionism is not inherently a violent/terrorist movement!

Not only is it nonsensical to blame the Jews for supporting Hitler and the Nazis, it’s the ultimate looney theory that’s under the anti-Semitic banner; that they’re so evil they caused their own demise!

*-
In November 1948, Begin visited the US on a campaigning trip. During his visit, a letter signed by Albert Einstein, Sidney Hook, Hannah Arendt, and other prominent Americans and several rabbis was published which described Begin's Herut party as "closely akin in its organization, methods, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties" and accused his group (along with the smaller, militant, Stern Gang) of preaching "racial superiority" and having "inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community".[18][19]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menachem_Begin

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 18, 2013, 12:27:06 AM
Why did Hitler hate the Jews?

He was a racist nut.
There could easily be a link between Nazi and, Moslem abrogation of responsibility

Both seem to operate on the same principal; it’s all YOUR fault

When Moslems blow someone up they justify it because of a claim that Islam was insulted. They were justified to do so, because the other side struck first.

When men beat their wives, it’s because the wife deserved it!

We see that same lunacy here; that the Jews deserved to be attacked because they started it; even to the point of installing into power a person who hated them so much.

What evil people they must be to want to support someone who would kill them.

And of course it completely removes Hitler’s own culpability from his evil.*

Even for revisionists here who can’t/won’t support their own figures (somewhere well short of even 500,000) are advocating a Hitler bereft of personal responsibility for his evil.

Those who support such a low figure have never explained where the rest of European Jewry ended up. One person already posted here the number of Jews in Europe as according to Nazi sources. Where did approximately 5,500,000 Jews go?

Where are the records of such a phenomenal migration from Europe of European Jews?

Tonnes of irrelevancies; except to the mind of anti-Semites have arisen here; from Jews involved in the mafia to the disappearance of some Nazi after the war.

Why did Hitler hate the Jews?

He was a racist nut. He had many other racist nuts to support him. These racist nuts still pop up today

*- even at the most base level Hitler would be culpable of accepting support from people he hated. None of the Nazi apologists however have shown any evidence that he did this.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: jmbejdl on April 18, 2013, 04:04:26 AM
Why did Hitler hate the Jews?

He was a racist nut.
There could easily be a link between Nazi and, Moslem abrogation of responsibility

Both seem to operate on the same principal; it’s all YOUR fault

When Moslems blow someone up they justify it because of a claim that Islam was insulted. They were justified to do so, because the other side struck first.

When men beat their wives, it’s because the wife deserved it!

We see that same lunacy here; that the Jews deserved to be attacked because they started it; even to the point of installing into power a person who hated them so much.

What evil people they must be to want to support someone who would kill them.

And of course it completely removes Hitler’s own culpability from his evil.*

Even for revisionists here who can’t/won’t support their own figures (somewhere well short of even 500,000) are advocating a Hitler bereft of personal responsibility for his evil.

Those who support such a low figure have never explained where the rest of European Jewry ended up. One person already posted here the number of Jews in Europe as according to Nazi sources. Where did approximately 5,500,000 Jews go?

Where are the records of such a phenomenal migration from Europe of European Jews?

Tonnes of irrelevancies; except to the mind of anti-Semites have arisen here; from Jews involved in the mafia to the disappearance of some Nazi after the war.

Why did Hitler hate the Jews?

He was a racist nut. He had many other racist nuts to support him. These racist nuts still pop up today

*- even at the most base level Hitler would be culpable of accepting support from people he hated. None of the Nazi apologists however have shown any evidence that he did this.


+1. Some, I'm sorry to say, even seem to pop up on this forum
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 18, 2013, 07:36:51 AM
+1. Some, I'm sorry to say, even seem to pop up on this forum


Aside from the fact Hitler hated the Jews, and wouldn't have accepted their support (and there's no evidence that he did - even from anti-Nazis - I'm not aware of any propaganda), the pro-Nazis here haven't said anything about why the pro-Zionists weren't targeting Jews in Poland.

There's a theory so full of holes as to be beyond belief.

IF Zionists wanted to push Jews into going to Palestine (ignoring the fact that the British (who controlled the Mandate there) wouldn't let them), then Poland with the larger Jewish population would be the obvious target.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: J Michael on April 18, 2013, 09:10:59 AM
Why did Hitler hate the Jews?

He was a racist nut.
There could easily be a link between Nazi and, Moslem abrogation of responsibility

Both seem to operate on the same principal; it’s all YOUR fault

When Moslems blow someone up they justify it because of a claim that Islam was insulted. They were justified to do so, because the other side struck first.

When men beat their wives, it’s because the wife deserved it!

We see that same lunacy here; that the Jews deserved to be attacked because they started it; even to the point of installing into power a person who hated them so much.

What evil people they must be to want to support someone who would kill them.

And of course it completely removes Hitler’s own culpability from his evil.*

Even for revisionists here who can’t/won’t support their own figures (somewhere well short of even 500,000) are advocating a Hitler bereft of personal responsibility for his evil.

Those who support such a low figure have never explained where the rest of European Jewry ended up. One person already posted here the number of Jews in Europe as according to Nazi sources. Where did approximately 5,500,000 Jews go?

Where are the records of such a phenomenal migration from Europe of European Jews?

Tonnes of irrelevancies; except to the mind of anti-Semites have arisen here; from Jews involved in the mafia to the disappearance of some Nazi after the war.

Why did Hitler hate the Jews?

He was a racist nut. He had many other racist nuts to support him. These racist nuts still pop up today

*- even at the most base level Hitler would be culpable of accepting support from people he hated. None of the Nazi apologists however have shown any evidence that he did this.


+1. Some, I'm sorry to say, even seem to pop up on this forum

+2
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: podkarpatska on April 18, 2013, 11:08:18 AM
Enough already. Why don't all the Nazi apologists just get digital TV  and spend their lives watching the History Channels on demand while connecting their tablets to a tv so you can "fact check" online until your fingers lock from repetitive motion disorders. That way the rest of us can do something constructive with our time.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: J Michael on April 18, 2013, 11:50:31 AM
Enough already. Why don't all the Nazi apologists just get digital TV  and spend their lives watching the History Channels on demand while connecting their tablets to a tv so you can "fact check" online until your fingers lock from repetitive motion disorders. That way the rest of us can do something constructive with our time.

I'm sure quite a few already have and do.  The problem, you see, is that they seem to feel that they must evangelize the rest of us and "right the wrongs" perpetrated upon humanity by those horrible Jews.  They just don't want the rest of us doing something constructive else with our time.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: sedevacantist on April 18, 2013, 06:09:56 PM
Enough already. Why don't all the Nazi apologists just get digital TV  and spend their lives watching the History Channels on demand while connecting their tablets to a tv so you can "fact check" online until your fingers lock from repetitive motion disorders. That way the rest of us can do something constructive with our time.
not sure if this is directed at me but just in case I am not a nazi apologist, are you a zionist apologist?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: sedevacantist on April 18, 2013, 06:12:58 PM
Zionists Betrayed Non-Z Jews to Holocaust

You might wish to start a blog site. This is a discussion site. You posted; I rebuffed. You have not addressed my rebuttal except to suddenly impose conditions for your to respond.

I've also addressed your points as your colleague has raised them; namely

a) Hitler hated the Jews before he was in power
and
b) it makes no sense to say Hitler accepted the support of those he hated in order to liquidate them
na , not interested in the blog thingy, you haven't rebuffed anything concerning the video I posted about the newspapers...I never said anything about Hitler liking jews..who financed Hitler?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Punch on April 18, 2013, 06:33:19 PM
Montalban - just a simple question, have you actually read Mein Kampf?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 18, 2013, 08:36:55 PM
Zionists Betrayed Non-Z Jews to Holocaust

You might wish to start a blog site. This is a discussion site. You posted; I rebuffed. You have not addressed my rebuttal except to suddenly impose conditions for your to respond.

I've also addressed your points as your colleague has raised them; namely

a) Hitler hated the Jews before he was in power
and
b) it makes no sense to say Hitler accepted the support of those he hated in order to liquidate them
na , not interested in the blog thingy, you haven't rebuffed anything concerning the video I posted about the newspapers...I never said anything about Hitler liking jews..who financed Hitler?

I rebuffed Zyklon-B as not being lethal
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 18, 2013, 08:37:48 PM
Montalban - just a simple question, have you actually read Mein Kampf?
What relevance is this?

We had to read it in Year 10, history, and write a report on it.

Have you read it?

Another weird book we had to read was "The Twelve Caesars" by Seutonius.

If you're really interested I've also read "Communist Manifesto" as well  :P
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 18, 2013, 08:40:03 PM
Enough already. Why don't all the Nazi apologists just get digital TV  and spend their lives watching the History Channels on demand while connecting their tablets to a tv so you can "fact check" online until your fingers lock from repetitive motion disorders. That way the rest of us can do something constructive with our time.
not sure if this is directed at me but just in case I am not a nazi apologist, are you a zionist apologist?

So someone denying the Holocaust, and think it's all made up (an 'industry') is not a Nazi apologist?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Punch on April 18, 2013, 09:07:12 PM
Montalban - just a simple question, have you actually read Mein Kampf?
What relevance is this?

We had to read it in Year 10, history, and write a report on it.

Have you read it?

Another weird book we had to read was "The Twelve Caesars" by Seutonius.

If you're really interested I've also read "Communist Manifesto" as well  :P

Oh yes.  What relevance?  Well, you seem to be in love with your own avatar on this thread.  Just checking if you actually knew anything.  I can pay attention now.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 18, 2013, 09:39:24 PM
Oh yes.  What relevance?  Well, you seem to be in love with your own avatar on this thread.
I apologise for providing a vigorous argument against evil.

Reading Mein Kampf, or not wouldn’t detract from the other evidence presented anyway.
  Just checking if you actually knew anything.  I can pay attention now.

Well you missed my question to you – have you read it?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on April 18, 2013, 09:53:38 PM
Enough already. Why don't all the Nazi apologists just get digital TV  and spend their lives watching the History Channels on demand while connecting their tablets to a tv so you can "fact check" online until your fingers lock from repetitive motion disorders. That way the rest of us can do something constructive with our time.
not sure if this is directed at me but just in case I am not a nazi apologist, are you a zionist apologist?

So someone denying the Holocaust, and think it's all made up (an 'industry') is not a Nazi apologist?

 You got it Pancho!  I know a couple of cats who deny the given Holocaust story AND they're anti-Nazi/Hitler.   
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on April 18, 2013, 09:58:29 PM
Enough already. Why don't all the Nazi apologists just get digital TV  and spend their lives watching the History Channels on demand while connecting their tablets to a tv so you can "fact check" online until your fingers lock from repetitive motion disorders. That way the rest of us can do something constructive with our time.

 Here's a thought that just occurred to me, (shucks, you can even call it a novel idea).  Rather than broad brushing everyone who doesn't subscribe to your way of thinking as a 'Nazi apologist' and getting your trousers all ruffled, why not just skip this thread entirely?  Ain't no one forcing you to participate here... 
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: podkarpatska on April 18, 2013, 11:44:51 PM
Enough already. Why don't all the Nazi apologists just get digital TV  and spend their lives watching the History Channels on demand while connecting their tablets to a tv so you can "fact check" online until your fingers lock from repetitive motion disorders. That way the rest of us can do something constructive with our time.

 Here's a thought that just occurred to me, (shucks, you can even call it a novel idea).  Rather than broad brushing everyone who doesn't subscribe to your way of thinking as a 'Nazi apologist' and getting your trousers all ruffled, why not just skip this thread entirely?  Ain't no one forcing you to participate here... 

I take it you are in accord with the views of sedevacantist and Martel who have been going at it here for awhile?

A bit of Orthodox reading in preparation for Pascha:  "Dachau 1945: The Souls of All Are Aflame" It's worth the time to read it.  http://www.antiochian.org/souls-aflame

Sorry but Holocaust deniers/explainers/number quibblers etc.. are apologists for the crimes of the Third Reich and all of its victims - whether Christians, Jews, Slavs, Roma, resistance fighters and all of those singled out by the racial and political policies of the Nazi regime and their collaborators. If you bothered to read this thread you would have noted that I pointed out that focusing on a number is not the issue - the crimes of the perpetrators were monstrous whether there were one million or twenty millions of victims combined. Attempting to explain or justify the Third Reich is nothing short of making league with evil.

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 18, 2013, 11:59:28 PM
You got it Pancho!  I know a couple of cats who deny the given Holocaust story AND they're anti-Nazi/Hitler.   

Denying the Holocaust is to be pro-Nazi

It's accepting their lie
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 19, 2013, 12:00:37 AM
Enough already. Why don't all the Nazi apologists just get digital TV  and spend their lives watching the History Channels on demand while connecting their tablets to a tv so you can "fact check" online until your fingers lock from repetitive motion disorders. That way the rest of us can do something constructive with our time.

 Here's a thought that just occurred to me, (shucks, you can even call it a novel idea).  Rather than broad brushing everyone who doesn't subscribe to your way of thinking as a 'Nazi apologist' and getting your trousers all ruffled, why not just skip this thread entirely?  Ain't no one forcing you to participate here... 

If you're tired of being called 'pro-Nazi' then the same applies to you about freedom of movement ;)
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: leap of faith on April 19, 2013, 12:12:42 AM
Enough already. Why don't all the Nazi apologists just get digital TV  and spend their lives watching the History Channels on demand while connecting their tablets to a tv so you can "fact check" online until your fingers lock from repetitive motion disorders. That way the rest of us can do something constructive with our time.

 Here's a thought that just occurred to me, (shucks, you can even call it a novel idea).  Rather than broad brushing everyone who doesn't subscribe to your way of thinking as a 'Nazi apologist' and getting your trousers all ruffled, why not just skip this thread entirely?  Ain't no one forcing you to participate here... 

I take it you are in accord with the views of sedevacantist and Martel who have been going at it here for awhile?

A bit of Orthodox reading in preparation for Pascha:  "Dachau 1945: The Souls of All Are Aflame" It's worth the time to read it.  http://www.antiochian.org/souls-aflame

Sorry but Holocaust deniers/explainers/number quibblers etc.. are apologists for the crimes of the Third Reich and all of its victims - whether Christians, Jews, Slavs, Roma, resistance fighters and all of those singled out by the racial and political policies of the Nazi regime and their collaborators. If you bothered to read this thread you would have noted that I pointed out that focusing on a number is not the issue - the crimes of the perpetrators were monstrous whether there were one million or twenty millions of victims combined. Attempting to explain or justify the Third Reich is nothing short of making league with evil.



Thank you for that amazing link.  I read every word of it.  Very timely, indeed.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Punch on April 19, 2013, 12:38:32 AM
Oh yes.  What relevance?  Well, you seem to be in love with your own avatar on this thread.
I apologise for providing a vigorous argument against evil.

Reading Mein Kampf, or not wouldn’t detract from the other evidence presented anyway.
  Just checking if you actually knew anything.  I can pay attention now.

Well you missed my question to you – have you read it?


What part of "Oh yes" escaped you?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Punch on April 19, 2013, 12:40:12 AM
Enough already. Why don't all the Nazi apologists just get digital TV  and spend their lives watching the History Channels on demand while connecting their tablets to a tv so you can "fact check" online until your fingers lock from repetitive motion disorders. That way the rest of us can do something constructive with our time.

 Here's a thought that just occurred to me, (shucks, you can even call it a novel idea).  Rather than broad brushing everyone who doesn't subscribe to your way of thinking as a 'Nazi apologist' and getting your trousers all ruffled, why not just skip this thread entirely?  Ain't no one forcing you to participate here... 

I take it you are in accord with the views of sedevacantist and Martel who have been going at it here for awhile?

A bit of Orthodox reading in preparation for Pascha:  "Dachau 1945: The Souls of All Are Aflame" It's worth the time to read it.  http://www.antiochian.org/souls-aflame

Sorry but Holocaust deniers/explainers/number quibblers etc.. are apologists for the crimes of the Third Reich and all of its victims - whether Christians, Jews, Slavs, Roma, resistance fighters and all of those singled out by the racial and political policies of the Nazi regime and their collaborators. If you bothered to read this thread you would have noted that I pointed out that focusing on a number is not the issue - the crimes of the perpetrators were monstrous whether there were one million or twenty millions of victims combined. Attempting to explain or justify the Third Reich is nothing short of making league with evil.


 

I take issue with only one thing you wrote, and I think that you would agree with me fully.  When it comes to man hating another man to the point that murder is involved, you don't need to get into the millions for it to be evil.  One will do.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 19, 2013, 01:16:47 AM

What part of "Oh yes" escaped you?

Maybe joining "Oh yes" to the question and not to 'what relevence' ;) Else you're answering my questions in reverse, for no apparent reason, and it's not obvious that your thought processes work backwards

English is a tricky language for some.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 19, 2013, 01:20:29 AM
I take issue with only one thing you wrote, and I think that you would agree with me fully.  When it comes to man hating another man to the point that murder is involved, you don't need to get into the millions for it to be evil.  One will do.

That's already established.

But when the murder of millions HAS been achieved and then denied then it does matter.

So does irrelevencies about who's read a particular book, or personal observations about icons. ;)

Such trivialisations are the point for the apologist - who wishes to discuss anything but the subject (in this case one of the worst crimes in history)

Part of the 'defence' of Nazism is that the Holocaust didn't happen. If someone says that it didn't then they're supporting a Nazi idea

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 19, 2013, 05:00:52 AM
You got it Pancho!  I know a couple of cats who deny the given Holocaust story AND they're anti-Nazi/Hitler.   

Denying the Holocaust is to be pro-Nazi
It's accepting their lie
Again, there you go again with defining the language, that's the issue with many.

 Just who determines in just what detail the "holocaust" is to described?

If you don't accept the offical ADL-approved version of the magical "six million" figure, which has been disproved over and over again, all of the sudden your labled and libeled an "antisemite" and some sort of "holocaust-denier", another word in the lexicon of the Jewish, loaded, bogus, terminology words they use to frame the argument.


Sorry if everyone doesn't bow down or cower in the face of your "pro-nazi" accusations because they don't buy every aspect of the drivel your on here peddeling nonstop, which by the way, many of us don't have the time to answer every one of your outrageous, longwinded posts, some of us have things like jobs and families and don't devote our entire free time online defending ourselves of being some kind of covert, Christian "net-nazi" defending the murder of innocent civilians in WWII.


I stand by by what I stated from the beginning of this thread, that there was more to the start of WWII than just Hitler being evil and "hating" the Jews, people just don't hate for no reason and there are always three sides to every story, the Germans, the Allies/Jews and the Truth. And the Truth is all I'm interested in, not propaganda and talking points for Zionism or the holocaust industry.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 19, 2013, 05:07:38 AM
Quote
Part of the 'defence' of Nazism is that the Holocaust didn't happen. If someone says that it didn't then they're supporting a Nazi idea

Again, that's what YOU SAY.

Again, just because people don't support the offical loaded ADL-approved version of the Jewish "holocaust" doesn't define them as "pro-Nazi" in anyway, but, like I said before, it's people like you who deem themselves as authroities of just who or who isn't a "nazi".

I remember you describing to me before about how the Nazis's determine who's a Jew now, you are using almost the same logic in describing just who's a "nazi", simply incredible.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Punch on April 19, 2013, 08:42:33 AM
What about those that support the Nazis, but think that the whole Jew thing was somewhat misguided and really should not have happened, and if they would have been nice to the Jews everyone would be speaking German now?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: podkarpatska on April 19, 2013, 08:51:12 AM
Enough already. Why don't all the Nazi apologists just get digital TV  and spend their lives watching the History Channels on demand while connecting their tablets to a tv so you can "fact check" online until your fingers lock from repetitive motion disorders. That way the rest of us can do something constructive with our time.

 Here's a thought that just occurred to me, (shucks, you can even call it a novel idea).  Rather than broad brushing everyone who doesn't subscribe to your way of thinking as a 'Nazi apologist' and getting your trousers all ruffled, why not just skip this thread entirely?  Ain't no one forcing you to participate here... 

I take it you are in accord with the views of sedevacantist and Martel who have been going at it here for awhile?

A bit of Orthodox reading in preparation for Pascha:  "Dachau 1945: The Souls of All Are Aflame" It's worth the time to read it.  http://www.antiochian.org/souls-aflame

Sorry but Holocaust deniers/explainers/number quibblers etc.. are apologists for the crimes of the Third Reich and all of its victims - whether Christians, Jews, Slavs, Roma, resistance fighters and all of those singled out by the racial and political policies of the Nazi regime and their collaborators. If you bothered to read this thread you would have noted that I pointed out that focusing on a number is not the issue - the crimes of the perpetrators were monstrous whether there were one million or twenty millions of victims combined. Attempting to explain or justify the Third Reich is nothing short of making league with evil.


 

I take issue with only one thing you wrote, and I think that you would agree with me fully.  When it comes to man hating another man to the point that murder is involved, you don't need to get into the millions for it to be evil.  One will do.

Of course and this morning we are again transfixed by the power of evil and the greater power of good in the terrorism in Boston followed by the reaction of rescuers and average people. Lord have mercy.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 19, 2013, 10:39:12 AM
I know a couple of cats who deny the given Holocaust story AND they're anti-Nazi/Hitler.

Denying the Holocaust is to be pro-Nazi
It's accepting their lie

The attitude of this statement is what embodies the spirit of Nazism more than anything.
"Gabriel the Celt" made a valid point which you ignored.

As a Christian, I love the jewish people and acknowledge that they were once the people of God and will one day be restored to the Holy Land.
Most posters in this thread whom I have read respect jews and do not deny they suffered from Nazis.
The sympathy towards jews shown by mostly Christian posters here who are critical of the state of Israel differs significantly from atheist pro-Nazi forums such as Stormfront which has a demonstrable lack of sympathy and humanity towards jews compared with a forum such as this one.

Nazi Germany and the state of Israel were and are both equally racist terrorist states and abominations to God.  
The jewish people whom I greatly respect were around a long time before either one of these existed and will continue long after both of them have ceased to exist.

Zionism is racist. It accuses others of racism and Nazism who have not ties with these things in order to hide its own racism and daily murders and abuse of Palestinians in their own land.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 19, 2013, 11:08:38 AM
What caused Hitler's hate towards the Jews than he wondered around to kill 5+ millions of them?
The truth is that most of them were in fact not killed.  They departed to other places.  
Many were compelled to leave to such places as the US, Russia and Russian controlled territories, and even Palestine.

As despicable as Aushcwitz was, Auschwitz was in fact a deportation facility - not a mass murder camp.

One of the best demographic studies on what actually happened to europe's jews is:
'The Dissolution of European Jewry' by Walter Sanning.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Dissolution-Eastern-European-Jewry/dp/0939484110

A couple of essays from the same perspective as Sanning's:
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v05/v05p367_Rubenstein.html
http://codoh.com/library/document/1042
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: jmbejdl on April 19, 2013, 11:20:25 AM
As despicable as it was, Auschwitz's function was in fact as a deportation facility - not a mass murder camp.

Do you know where Auschwitz is? Go look it up on a map and tell me if you think that that's a good place to locate a 'deportation facility'. Honestly, I thought Nazi Germany was supposed to be scientific and efficient...

Are you seriously claiming that all of those with personal connections to Auschwitz are deluded, lying to ourselves or duped by the media/establishment? May I remind you that my grandfather's first wife was killed at Auschwitz and that I know one man who survived the place personally?

What purpose does it serve to spout such nonsense? I hesitate to say lies as I sense you actually believe in this misguided rubbish, but what purpose can there possibly be in propagating them other than as an attempt to apologise for Hitler's crimes. I have absolutely no problem with people questioning the details (6 million does not need to be an accurate figure, for instance) if that questioning is based on reason but to dismiss the whole thing is... amazing.

James
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 19, 2013, 11:33:27 AM
I always understood that Begin was a member of the Irgun, not the Stern gang.
You are correct.  Menachem Begin joined Irgun of which group Avraham Stern was a former member.


Where do you have evidence that they were pro-Nazi?
National Military Organization [NMO / Stern Gang]

Fundamental Features of the Proposal of the National Military Organization in Palestine (Irgun Zvai Leumi) Concerning
the Solution of the Jewish Question in Europe and the Participation of the NMO in the War on the Side of Germany (1941)

http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/document/mideast/agedict/irgunazi.htm

The Lehi (led by Stern) were an offshoot of Irgun who were led by Jabotinsky and later formed the basis of the right-wing Likud political party.

The Irgun which Menachem Begin joined were a terrorist organization that killed scores of people and itself entered WWII in 1944 on the side of the Nazis.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 19, 2013, 11:40:53 AM
As despicable as it was, Auschwitz's function was in fact as a deportation facility - not a mass murder camp.

Do you know where Auschwitz is? Go look it up on a map and tell me if you think that that's a good place to locate a 'deportation facility'.
I agree , ofcourse, that many jews were murdered by the Nazis, but as to the Nazis overall intention for the jewish majority:

If their idea was to deport them out of europe (as opposed to killing them), then a facilities located towards the borders of europe does actually make sense.

The Nazis deported the jewish residents of the Netherlands, for example, to eastern europe. 
Why would they bother to move them all the way over there if their intention was to kill them which they could have done on the spot? 
That is what makes no sense.  Most of the evidence points to an intended deportation.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: podkarpatska on April 19, 2013, 11:50:10 AM
Boze moi. Auschwitz not a death camp? God help us as we have no common ground.

I will concede that history is built on shades of gray, never black and white in its entirety, but....neither is history a speculative non-scientific discipline. While SERIOUS academics can differ about the entirety  of the narrative of a  particular historical event, some things are not seriously in dispute.

Defending the reality of the Holocaust is not akin to defending Zionism or the non biblical, irreligious modern state of Israel  - another western "nation state" born out of the failure and arrogance of Versailles.

Good op-ed in today's NY Times on point: "The Jewish Hero History Forgot  SEVENTY years ago today, the Warsaw Ghetto uprising began as a group of young men and women fired the shots that began the largest single act of Jewish resistance during the Holocaust." Not all were Zionists or Marxists - a fact conveniently overlooked by many. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/19/opinion/the-jewish-hero-history-forgot.html#http://json8.nytimes.com/pages/opinion/index.jsonp


Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: jmbejdl on April 19, 2013, 11:51:53 AM
As despicable as it was, Auschwitz's function was in fact as a deportation facility - not a mass murder camp.

Do you know where Auschwitz is? Go look it up on a map and tell me if you think that that's a good place to locate a 'deportation facility'.
I agree , ofcourse, that many jews were murdered by the Nazis, but as to the Nazis overall intention for the jewish majority:

If their idea was to deport them out of europe (as opposed to killing them), then a facilities located towards the borders of europe does actually make sense.

The Nazis deported the jewish residents of the Netherlands, for example, to eastern europe. 
Why would they bother to move them all the way over there if their intention was to kill them which they could have done on the spot? 
That is what makes no sense.  Most of the evidence points to an intended deportation.

But Auschwitz isn't on the borders of Europe, it's practically dead centre and right in the middle of the land mass. If it was a deportation centre why wasn't it on the coast? Or alternatively, if you're going to claim that it was for deporting western Jews further east, explain why they deported Jews from north eastern Romania to Auschwitz - that's 700km in entirely the wrong direction!

And you seriously think this makes more sense than it being a death camp built close to large Jewish populations?

James
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 19, 2013, 12:06:04 PM
Where do you have evidence that they were pro-Nazi?
'51 Documents:  Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis'
http://www.scribd.com/doc/62566203/Lenni-Brenner-51-Documents-Zionist-Collaboration-With-the-Nazis
http://www.amazon.com/51-Documents-Zionist-Collaboration-Nazis/dp/1569804338

'Perfidy'
By Ben Hecht
http://www.hirhome.com/israel/perfidy.pdf

'Perfidy' is a history of a 1950's trial in Israel which exposed zionist cooperation with the Nazis in World War II. 
One Israeli named Kastner became the fall guy for the Israeli leaders, but the trial did bring down Ben Gurion's government which had been in place since the state was founded in 1948.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 19, 2013, 12:18:42 PM
If it was a deportation centre why wasn't it on the coast?

Bringing jews to Palestine was the objective of the zionist side of the Israeli-Nazi pact.  The Nazis wanted to remove them from europe without as much concern for where they ended.  America was an ocean away and it rejected jews at the time.  Asia generally and Russia specifically was one of the most practical for Nazi plans.

Accordingly, I have read that a Nazi plan for european jews during the 1930's including a plan to deport european jews to eastern Africa.  A British plan that went back to circa 1903 schemed to relocate european jews to Uganda, and it was an offer made as a reply to requests for the relocation of jews from europe to Palestine by Theodore Herzl. 
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 19, 2013, 12:22:12 PM
And you seriously think this makes more sense than it being a death camp built close to large Jewish populations?

A few years ago, I read Arthur Butz's book 'The Hoax of the Twentieth Century' and became convinced that his argument is basically correct.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 19, 2013, 12:33:09 PM
What caused Hitler's hate towards the Jews than he wondered around to kill 5+ millions of them?
The truth is that most of them were in fact not killed.  They departed to other places.

That is not to deny that Hitler hated jews because he very much did hate them and did cause the murder of many of them.
The man had serious issues, and he himself was a zionist.

Adolf Hitler:  Founder of Israel
http://holywar.org/txt/founder_of_Israel.pdf


Denying the Holocaust is to be pro-Nazi
It's accepting their lie
My bishop (with the Matthewites) said to me not long ago "I was born during the night, but I wasn't born last night."
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: podkarpatska on April 19, 2013, 01:23:26 PM
And you seriously think this makes more sense than it being a death camp built close to large Jewish populations?

A few years ago, I read Arthur Butz's book 'The Hoax of the Twentieth Century' and became convinced that his argument is basically correct.

Just a side note, lest anyone outside of the Orthosphere conclude that the Orthodox Christian faith endorses the rubbish being scattered here as fact, I offer the following. I know that this will elicit vitriol from those challenged by Fr. Sergei, all I will say to their anticipated response is that God will judge each of us by our words, thoughts and deeds. I hope to stand with the faithful like Father Sergei on that dread day. The paper is clearly written, lengthy and well worth the time read:

The relevance of Western post-Holocaust theology to the thought and practice of the Russian Orthodox Church

by  Archpriest Sergei Hackel

published in Sobornost 20:1 (1998); Sobornost is the journal of the Fellowship of Saints Alban and Sergius (1 Canterbury Rd., Oxford OX2 6LU, England UK)

http://www.incommunion.org/2004/10/24/post-holocaust-theology/

Father Sergei's words are powerful and render the nonsense of the deniers and anti-Semites pitiful by comparison. Father Sergei, an ethnic Russian, reposed in 2005. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/fr-sergei-hackel-6151465.html
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 19, 2013, 01:51:55 PM
Here is the list produced by Eichmann at the Wannsee Conference.  The Holocaust is one of the most well-documented genocides in history.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5c/WannseeList.jpg/407px-WannseeList.jpg)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WannseeList.jpg

I wanted to post a relevant comment about this document from the Wannsee conference.
The words which I have italicized are those which I believe place this document in its proper context:

Quote from: Germar Rudolf
The first statement concerns the so-called Wannsee Protocol of January 1942. This document is said to summarize the contents of a meeting which was held among second-tier politicians of the Third Reich regarding the implementation of plans about the so-called “Final Solution of the Jewish Question.”
 
Prof. Eßbach claims that the fact that we do not have an exact transcript of the Wannsee conference, revisionists claim that this has to lead to doubts whether that conference took place in the first place (11: 12:49-13:00). I am not aware of any revisionist text that claims this. Regarding the Wannsee Protocol, the revisionists are basically divided into two groups:
 
a) One group insists that the two version of the Wannsee Protocol known today are forgeries. The reasons for this are manifold and will not be repeated here. None of the authors adhering to this thesis has ever claimed, however, that such a conference never took place. Quite to the contrary, their critique even dealt to various degrees with what the participants of this conference have claimed about it later on. When it comes to this document’s contents, this group is merely concerned with whether that which is written in the protocol conforms to what was discussed during that meeting.[3]
 
b) A second group assumes at least that the protocol’s contents are authentic, and maybe that it itself is genuine, because it does not contain anything that hints at a physical extermination of the Jews. The contents of that document are therefore in basic agreement with what this group considers to be historical facts."
http://germarrudolf.com/2012/10/professor-hot-air-nozzle

The question is where does this document state that the peoples listed therein are intended for slaughter? It doesn't.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: podkarpatska on April 19, 2013, 02:05:10 PM
It's impossible to take seriously the words of a supposedly well educated would-be alternative historian who refers to an academic with whom he takes issue with as " Professor Hot Air Nozzle". Such rhetorical tactics seem more fitted to a radio host "preaching" to the choir, like Michael Savage or Rush Limbaugh, rather than a serious person honestly attempting to counter conventional wisdom or add to the body of established knowledge.

At least Amazon is smart enough to place "alternative history" under fiction.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: JamesR on April 19, 2013, 02:12:32 PM
On a somewhat related note, I think that many folks underestimate just how tough the Japanese were in World War II. They would literally fight until the death of the last man and then would have their women, children and old folks fight too until their whole population was decimated. Man for man they were superior to any army in the world at the time. Most veterans I've talked to have all said that fighting in the Pacific was ten times worse than in Europe. And if it weren't for the atomic bomb and the United States's manufacturing power, I think that they could have taken on any world power at the time individually; even Germany, due to Japan's naval superiority.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 19, 2013, 02:13:41 PM
http://www.incommunion.org/2004/10/24/post-holocaust-theology/
I took a look at this and found it to be a jewish condemnation of the Orthodox Church that demands alteration of everything in the history of the Orthodox Church not amenable to the more extreme views of modern zionists including changing the liturgy, reproving Church Fathers who wrote about jews, etc.

It's a Russian "orthodox" version of John Hagee.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: leap of faith on April 19, 2013, 02:19:34 PM
http://www.incommunion.org/2004/10/24/post-holocaust-theology/
I took a look at this and found it to be a jewish condemnation of the Orthodox Church that demands alteration of everything in the history of the Orthodox Church not amenable to the more extreme views of modern zionists including changing the liturgy, reproving Church Fathers who wrote about jews, etc.

It's a Russian "orthodox" version of John Hagee.

That line right there is enough to give a person nightmares.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 19, 2013, 02:28:55 PM
On a somewhat related note, I think that many folks underestimate just how tough the Japanese were in World War II. They would literally fight until the death of the last man and then would have their women, children and old folks fight too until their whole population was decimated. Man for man they were superior to any army in the world at the time. Most veterans I've talked to have all said that fighting in the Pacific was ten times worse than in Europe. And if it weren't for the atomic bomb and the United States's manufacturing power, I think that they could have taken on any world power at the time individually; even Germany, due to Japan's naval superiority.

If you get the chance, I recommend you watch the Bollywood movie 'Bose - Forgotten Hero' about the extraordinary Subhas Chandra Bose of whom I think of as India's answer to Malcolm X.  I appreciate that the movie depicts Hitler as a bigoted idiot and does a really fine job of placing Bose's relation to Hitler in the right context.  The movie depicts General Tojo in a much better light, and Bose knew both.  The movie is critical of Ghandi, but maintains an overall respect for him.  I afterwards watched Ben Kingsley's 'Ghandi' from the early 1980's and greatly enjoyed both movies.  I suggest reading a bit about Subhas Chandra Bose before watching as he is one of the most enigmatic figures of World War II.  He was Ghandi's political opponent who desired using arms to force the British out, and there is no one more directly responsible for the death of the British empire. The entire movie is on youtube as a whole and also in 20 minute segments, and large segments of it are in English. Awesome movie and historically accurate.  

Subhas Chandra Bose
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subhas_Chandra_Bose

Bose - The Forgotten Hero
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIwqOb4KqGg
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: podkarpatska on April 19, 2013, 02:33:47 PM
http://www.incommunion.org/2004/10/24/post-holocaust-theology/
I took a look at this and found it to be a jewish condemnation of the Orthodox Church that demands alteration of everything in the history of the Orthodox Church not amenable to the more extreme views of modern zionists including changing the liturgy, reproving Church Fathers who wrote about jews, etc.

It's a Russian "orthodox" version of John Hagee.

Your response did not fail to meet my prediction and was anticipated.

Sir, I suspect you do not consider me and those, who of like mind, stand with the ancient, venerable Patriarchates and their daughter, self ruling Churches to be anything other than heterodox. That bothers me not in the least. You and your co-sectarians have willfully chosen your own path apart from and separate from the Orthodox Church regardless of how you fashion yourselves. So be it, as it is the fate of your soul in the balance.

As to what I consider you from an Orthodox point of view, I shall leave that to the imagination of our readers. However, as to the point of view you espouse in this matter, it is both abhorrent and intellectually vacant.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 19, 2013, 02:48:21 PM
as to the point of view you espouse in this matter, it is both abhorrent and intellectually vacant
Coming from someone who endorses the stuff @ http://www.incommunion.org/2004/10/24/post-holocaust-theology ,
I'll go ahead and take that one as a compliment.

Your response did not fail to meet my prediction and was anticipated.
I'm glad that we can agree on something, even if it is to disagree.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: J Michael on April 19, 2013, 02:57:02 PM
http://www.incommunion.org/2004/10/24/post-holocaust-theology/
I took a look at this and found it to be a jewish condemnation of the Orthodox Church that demands alteration of everything in the history of the Orthodox Church not amenable to the more extreme views of modern zionists including changing the liturgy, reproving Church Fathers who wrote about jews, etc.

It's a Russian "orthodox" version of John Hagee.

Your response did not fail to meet my prediction and was anticipated.

Sir, I suspect you do not consider me and those, who of like mind, stand with the ancient, venerable Patriarchates and their daughter, self ruling Churches to be anything other than heterodox. That bothers me not in the least. You and your co-sectarians have willfully chosen your own path apart from and separate from the Orthodox Church regardless of how you fashion yourselves. So be it, as it is the fate of your soul in the balance.

As to what I consider you from an Orthodox point of view, I shall leave that to the imagination of our readers. However, as to the point of view you espouse in this matter, it is both abhorrent and intellectually vacant.

+1

Not to mention gruesome.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 19, 2013, 03:01:20 PM
Boze moi. Auschwitz not a death camp? God help us as we have no common ground.

I will concede that history is built on shades of gray, never black and white in its entirety, but....neither is history a speculative non-scientific discipline. While SERIOUS academics can differ about the entirety  of the narrative of a  particular historical event, some things are not seriously in dispute.

Defending the reality of the Holocaust is not akin to defending Zionism or the non biblical, irreligious modern state of Israel  - another western "nation state" born out of the failure and arrogance of Versailles.

Good op-ed in today's NY Times on point: "The Jewish Hero History Forgot  SEVENTY years ago today, the Warsaw Ghetto uprising began as a group of young men and women fired the shots that began the largest single act of Jewish resistance during the Holocaust." Not all were Zionists or Marxists - a fact conveniently overlooked by many. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/19/opinion/the-jewish-hero-history-forgot.html#http://json8.nytimes.com/pages/opinion/index.jsonp

I was looking over this thread and wanted to say that this particular post was actually not too bad.
- Jewish holocaust and state of Israel two different things >  :)
- Commemorating the warsaw ghetto uprising >  :)  :)  :)

EDIT:
THE JEWISH HERO HISTORY FORGOT
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/19/opinion/the-jewish-hero-history-forgot.html#http://json8.nytimes.com/pages/opinion/index.jsonp

Great article and rather perceptive.  This just came out.  
Marxists and zionists fighting side by side.  Interesting what having a common enemy can do.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 19, 2013, 03:15:43 PM
Auschwitz not a death camp? God help us as we have no common ground.

 ;) Almost, but not quite...

Good op-ed in today's NY Times on point: "The Jewish Hero History Forgot  SEVENTY years ago today, the Warsaw Ghetto uprising began as a group of young men and women fired the shots that began the largest single act of Jewish resistance during the Holocaust." Not all were Zionists or Marxists - a fact conveniently overlooked by many. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/19/opinion/the-jewish-hero-history-forgot.html#http://json8.nytimes.com/pages/opinion/index.jsonp

This inspires me to go out and find a really dynamic and spirited account of the Warsaw ghetto uprising -
comparable to something like Che Guevara's 'Episodes of the Cuban Revolutionary War.'
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: mike on April 19, 2013, 03:59:34 PM
So what was the reason of Ghetto Uprising if the Germans hadn't wanted to kill Jews? Who fought in the Uprising since there were only several thousands of Jews involved in the Holocaust? Where are these 50k of Jewish civilian and soldier causalities from?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 19, 2013, 04:43:16 PM
Good op-ed in today's NY Times on point: "The Jewish Hero History Forgot  SEVENTY years ago today, the Warsaw Ghetto uprising began as a group of young men and women fired the shots that began the largest single act of Jewish resistance during the Holocaust." Not all were Zionists or Marxists - a fact conveniently overlooked by many. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/19/opinion/the-jewish-hero-history-forgot.html#http://json8.nytimes.com/pages/opinion/index.jsonp

From the end of that NY Times article:

Quote from: Marci Shore NY Times article
Edelman, who had survived by escaping through the sewers, was the last living commander of the uprising. After the war, in Communist Poland, he became a cardiologist: “to outwit God,” as he once said. In the 1970s and ’80s he re-emerged in the public sphere as an activist in the anti-Communist opposition, working with the Committee for the Defense of Workers and the Solidarity movement. He died in 2009, and to this day, he is celebrated as a hero in Poland.

He is remembered with more ambivalence in Israel. “Israel has a problem with Jews like Edelman,” the Israeli author Etgar Keret told a Polish newspaper in 2009. “He didn’t want to live here. And he never said that he fought in the ghetto so that the state of Israel would come into being.” Not even Moshe Arens, a former Israeli defense minister and an admirer of Edelman, could persuade an Israeli university to grant the uprising hero an honorary degree.

After the war, Yitzhak Zuckerman and Zivia Lubetkin, who had survived with Edelman, founded a kibbutz in Israel in memory of the ghetto fighters. Edelman remained close to them until they died.

Zionism, however, remained unappealing to him. Nor did he fantasize about reviving the diaspora nationalism of the Bund. He believed the history of Jews in Poland was over. There were no more Jews.
“It’s sad for Poland,” he told me in 1997, “because a single-nation state is never a good thing.”
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: J Michael on April 19, 2013, 04:46:32 PM
Good op-ed in today's NY Times on point: "The Jewish Hero History Forgot  SEVENTY years ago today, the Warsaw Ghetto uprising began as a group of young men and women fired the shots that began the largest single act of Jewish resistance during the Holocaust." Not all were Zionists or Marxists - a fact conveniently overlooked by many. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/19/opinion/the-jewish-hero-history-forgot.html#http://json8.nytimes.com/pages/opinion/index.jsonp

From the end of that NY Times article:

Quote from: Marci Shore NY Times article
Edelman, who had survived by escaping through the sewers, was the last living commander of the uprising. After the war, in Communist Poland, he became a cardiologist: “to outwit God,” as he once said. In the 1970s and ’80s he re-emerged in the public sphere as an activist in the anti-Communist opposition, working with the Committee for the Defense of Workers and the Solidarity movement. He died in 2009, and to this day, he is celebrated as a hero in Poland.

He is remembered with more ambivalence in Israel. “Israel has a problem with Jews like Edelman,” the Israeli author Etgar Keret told a Polish newspaper in 2009. “He didn’t want to live here. And he never said that he fought in the ghetto so that the state of Israel would come into being.” Not even Moshe Arens, a former Israeli defense minister and an admirer of Edelman, could persuade an Israeli university to grant the uprising hero an honorary degree.

After the war, Yitzhak Zuckerman and Zivia Lubetkin, who had survived with Edelman, founded a kibbutz in Israel in memory of the ghetto fighters. Edelman remained close to them until they died.

Zionism, however, remained unappealing to him. Nor did he fantasize about reviving the diaspora nationalism of the Bund. He believed the history of Jews in Poland was over. There were no more Jews.
“It’s sad for Poland,” he told me in 1997, “because a single-nation state is never a good thing.”

What's your point?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: podkarpatska on April 19, 2013, 05:40:44 PM
The heroic and Christ-like actions of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church during the Bulgarian states dalliance with the Axis and in response to Bulgaria's Nationalities Law, modeled after the Reich's Nuremburg Laws is inspiring. This article by Bulgarian Orthodox Archimandrite Pavel (Stefanov) is a testament to the hierarchy of wartime Bulgaria.

One link to the pdf file through Facebook can be found here http://shu-bg.academia.edu/PavelStefanov or by searching Father Pavel and the holocaust.
 

More about Bulgaria: http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2013/03/a-nation-that-showed-courage-bulgaria-and-the-jews/
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: podkarpatska on April 19, 2013, 05:55:56 PM
Archbishop Damaskinos of Athens: http://www.raoulwallenberg.net/es/generales/archbishop-damaskinos/

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 19, 2013, 06:51:22 PM
Archbishop Damaskinos of Athens: http://www.raoulwallenberg.net/es/generales/archbishop-damaskinos

I would like to point out that this webpage is honoring Nazi collaborators.  Considering that the livelihood of the Athens Chief of police Angelos Evert was spent hunting communists, I doubt that he saved more peope than he killed and endangered - including jews.  The post-war anti-communist government of Greece was based upon this Nazi racist system of which he was an active part.  

The Greek communists led by Aris Velouchiotis and Stefanos Sarafis were the greatest friends of both jews and Greek peasants.  Police chief Angelos Evert and Bishop Damaskinos were part of the Nazi system that persecuted jews and communists alike in WWII Greece.  

Frieends of Greek Jewry * bestows annual Moral Courage Award on General Stefanos Sarafis
http://www.internationalwallofprayer.org/A-139-Awards-of-Moral-Courage-Rescue-of-Greek-Jews.html

*of the Kehila Kenosha Synagogue of Greek Jews in Manhattan, NY (Romaniote)

It appeared that the fascist Greek government which the CIA and British had Sarafis assassinated by an american military man in the mid-1950's.
Sarafis himself did write an excellent history of the war in 1946 from the communist perspective.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 19, 2013, 07:12:38 PM
Archbishop Damaskinos of Athens attempted to save the Nazis by pleading their cause with the communists to spare the Nazis as they retreated.  Conversely, if he ever pled on behalf of the Greeks who fought the Nazis, then it would be news to me.  That is more characteristic of cowardice interested in preserving one's own position than any ideal.

Source - 'The Kapetanios: Partisans and Civil War in Greece: 1943-1949' by Dominique Eudes

Archbishop Damaskinos was very politically astute.  He assisted jews and Greek rebellions when he perceived it would assist his credibility with them.  He never organized resistance, and he only joined it when he perceived the tide was turning.  He served Nazis as long as the alternative was unpalatable.  He could have been worse, but he was not heroic in any sense.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 19, 2013, 07:51:12 PM
Archbishop Damaskinos was the ruler of Greece for most of the the British period from 1944 to 1946 when the monarch returned, and he did nothing to stop Greek fascist terror organizations that were founded and operated with Nazi support.  These organizations continued to murder jews and non-monarchists while Archbishop Damaskinos was in power and knew of these things.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 19, 2013, 08:30:03 PM
As despicable as it was, Auschwitz's function was in fact as a deportation facility - not a mass murder camp.

Do you know where Auschwitz is? Go look it up on a map and tell me if you think that that's a good place to locate a 'deportation facility'.
I agree , ofcourse, that many jews were murdered by the Nazis, but as to the Nazis overall intention for the jewish majority:

If their idea was to deport them out of europe (as opposed to killing them), then a facilities located towards the borders of europe does actually make sense.

The Nazis deported the jewish residents of the Netherlands, for example, to eastern europe. 
Why would they bother to move them all the way over there if their intention was to kill them which they could have done on the spot? 
That is what makes no sense.  Most of the evidence points to an intended deportation.

That's not true.

It was a flirtation of theirs to transport the Jews early on, but in the end they decided to murder them.

As to deporting them to Eastern Europe and not killing them out-right - it was to hide what they were doing
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 19, 2013, 08:35:16 PM
Boze moi. Auschwitz not a death camp? God help us as we have no common ground.
Don't be fooled by Nazi apology!

The Nazi apologist has to be pedantic when it comes to facts.

Auschwitz was at the heart of a number of camps. It was a giant complex, almost a city of camps.

Technically the death camp was called Birkenau, but this is also known as Auschwitz II-Birkenau, so someone arguing that Auschwitz is not a death camp is simply attempting a game of apologetics based on pedantics.

He knows this, no doubt.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 19, 2013, 08:39:58 PM
Bringing jews to Palestine was the objective of the zionist side of the Israeli-Nazi pact.  The Nazis wanted to remove them from europe without as much concern for where they ended.  America was an ocean away and it rejected jews at the time.  Asia generally and Russia specifically was one of the most practical for Nazi plans.
Joining the first two statements is a non-sequitur. Whilst both statements are true there is no correlation between the aims of the two groups except in your mind.

The Nazis hated the Jews.

Zionists did not.

You keep posting blog-like and ignoring questions and points raised.

I already raised the point that Palestine was a British mandate. It's totally academic for any of the two groups to desire the Jews to go to Palestine because the British would have to agree.

Furthermore you have noted that the Germans wanted the Jews out of Europe, not necessarily to Madagascar. Zionists would not have worked with Germans who wanted Jews going to Madagascar!

But you have two near points of convergence of aim, and you tie them together based on no evidence at all.

And the worse part is, it's simply to blame the Jews for what happened to them.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 19, 2013, 08:49:21 PM
What some Nazi apologists are trying to do is blame Jews for the Holocaust

Nazis wanted Jews out of Europe.

Zionists wanted Jews in Israel.

There is but the tiniest convergence of interest here. However

a) Zionists worked with the British, or around the British because Britain ruled Palestine.

b) Nazis hated Jews and originally considered deporting Jews - but EVEN IF they wanted them in Palestine they'd have to have agreement with the British and there's absolutely NO EVIDENCE put forward, even from any looney right wing writer here about the Nazis working with the British to move the Jews to Palestine, so EVEN IF the Zionists had worked with the Nazis, their alliance would be totally academic because neither of them would be able to move ahead without Britain.

I keep punching holes in the pro-Nazi apology here; a very easy thing to do. But the blog just goes on.

The whole point of 'the Jews' working as a group to support Hitler, or anyone, is itself racist.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 19, 2013, 08:53:10 PM
I always understood that Begin was a member of the Irgun, not the Stern gang.
You are correct.  Menachem Begin joined Irgun of which group Avraham Stern was a former member.


Where do you have evidence that they were pro-Nazi?
National Military Organization [NMO / Stern Gang]

Fundamental Features of the Proposal of the National Military Organization in Palestine (Irgun Zvai Leumi) Concerning
the Solution of the Jewish Question in Europe and the Participation of the NMO in the War on the Side of Germany (1941)

http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/document/mideast/agedict/irgunazi.htm

The Lehi (led by Stern) were an offshoot of Irgun who were led by Jabotinsky and later formed the basis of the right-wing Likud political party.

The Irgun which Menachem Begin joined were a terrorist organization that killed scores of people and itself entered WWII in 1944 on the side of the Nazis.


And now you're citing Marxists!

Marxists are in general anti-Israel - seeing it as a fascist extension of US capitalism; it's why 'traditionally' the Soviet Union was pro-Arab.

If you have a source with no axe to grind that would be great.

My communist friends are all dead-set pro-Palestinian

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 19, 2013, 09:37:32 PM
Marxists are in general anti-Israel - seeing it as a fascist extension of US capitalism; it's why 'traditionally' the Soviet Union was pro-Arab.
...
My communist friends are all dead-set pro-Palestinian
Although my sentiments are perhaps slightly more anarchist than Marxian, you can count me along with your communist friends on this one.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 19, 2013, 09:39:24 PM
If you have a source with no axe to grind that would be great.
Does quoting you qualify?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Velsigne on April 19, 2013, 10:09:31 PM

I wanted to post a relevant comment about this document from the Wannsee conference.
The words which I have italicized are those which I believe place this document in its proper context:

Quote from: Germar Rudolf
The first statement concerns the so-called Wannsee Protocol of January 1942. This document is said to summarize the contents of a meeting which was held among second-tier politicians of the Third Reich regarding the implementation of plans about the so-called “Final Solution of the Jewish Question.”
 
Prof. Eßbach claims that the fact that we do not have an exact transcript of the Wannsee conference, revisionists claim that this has to lead to doubts whether that conference took place in the first place (11: 12:49-13:00). I am not aware of any revisionist text that claims this. Regarding the Wannsee Protocol, the revisionists are basically divided into two groups:
 
a) One group insists that the two version of the Wannsee Protocol known today are forgeries. The reasons for this are manifold and will not be repeated here. None of the authors adhering to this thesis has ever claimed, however, that such a conference never took place. Quite to the contrary, their critique even dealt to various degrees with what the participants of this conference have claimed about it later on. When it comes to this document’s contents, this group is merely concerned with whether that which is written in the protocol conforms to what was discussed during that meeting.[3]
 
b) A second group assumes at least that the protocol’s contents are authentic, and maybe that it itself is genuine, because it does not contain anything that hints at a physical extermination of the Jews. The contents of that document are therefore in basic agreement with what this group considers to be historical facts."
http://germarrudolf.com/2012/10/professor-hot-air-nozzle

The question is where does this document state that the peoples listed therein are intended for slaughter? It doesn't.

No, from what I remember of the details it doesn't because they used veiled language and discussed more specifics after the formal meeting.  Have you reviewed the testimony of Eichmann?  He directly states that the Fuehrer ordered the physical extermination of the Jews.  Everyone knew what was being discussed.  But in case, for some strange reason you reject the testimony of Eichmann, here is another set of original documents for your perusal. 

Harvard Law Library is assembling a digital collection of original documents.  Here you can see the opening statement of the Nuremberg Trials by the United States of America. 

(http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/imagedir/HLSL_NMT01/HLSL_NUR_00565002.jpg)


If you care to learn more about it, you can read the entire document, and have a look around the site and read the testimonies and see the original Nazi documents.  The compilation and preservation of the documents is still underway. 

Havard Law School Library (http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/php/pflip.php?caseid=HLSL_NMT01&docnum=565&numpages=62&startpage=1&title=Opening+Statement+for+the+United+States+of+America.&color_setting=C)




The Transcripts   

 

"Currently, a portion of the Medical Case transcript is the only trial transcript material we are able to make available. The portion offered covers the first seven days of the proceedings. The full Medical Trial extends from 21 November 1946 (defense motion for continuance) through 20 August 1947 (sentences for those convicted). It includes witness testimony, the presentation of exhibits, oral arguments by counsel, and rulings by the tribunal. (It does not include the pre-trial indictment and arraignment, the post-trial appeals, the full text of the exhibits, or the written briefs.) The English language transcript fills twenty-three bound volumes and 11538 pages.

This transcript text was keyed in from the microfilm version of the trial transcript held by the National Archives (NARA), and then proofread and edited to conform to the text in the Harvard Law School Library Nuremberg collection. In particular, the pagination was adjusted when necessary to match the Harvard copy rather than the NARA copy when the two differed; therefore, document citations in the transcript will match the transcript citations in the analysis of the documents. In addition, many typographical errors have been corrected, using brackets when the error appeared in the original text. Although we have not attempted to correct factual errors in the text systematically, some have been corrected when both the error and the correction were obvious. The intended result is a clear text, but not a perfect one. Researchers who require the precise text of the National Archives copy, errors included, should consult the NARA microfilm."

http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/NurTranscript/TranscriptSearches/tran_about.php



Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: podkarpatska on April 19, 2013, 11:12:02 PM

I wanted to post a relevant comment about this document from the Wannsee conference.
The words which I have italicized are those which I believe place this document in its proper context:

Quote from: Germar Rudolf
The first statement concerns the so-called Wannsee Protocol of January 1942. This document is said to summarize the contents of a meeting which was held among second-tier politicians of the Third Reich regarding the implementation of plans about the so-called “Final Solution of the Jewish Question.”
 
Prof. Eßbach claims that the fact that we do not have an exact transcript of the Wannsee conference, revisionists claim that this has to lead to doubts whether that conference took place in the first place (11: 12:49-13:00). I am not aware of any revisionist text that claims this. Regarding the Wannsee Protocol, the revisionists are basically divided into two groups:
 
a) One group insists that the two version of the Wannsee Protocol known today are forgeries. The reasons for this are manifold and will not be repeated here. None of the authors adhering to this thesis has ever claimed, however, that such a conference never took place. Quite to the contrary, their critique even dealt to various degrees with what the participants of this conference have claimed about it later on. When it comes to this document’s contents, this group is merely concerned with whether that which is written in the protocol conforms to what was discussed during that meeting.[3]
 
b) A second group assumes at least that the protocol’s contents are authentic, and maybe that it itself is genuine, because it does not contain anything that hints at a physical extermination of the Jews. The contents of that document are therefore in basic agreement with what this group considers to be historical facts."
http://germarrudolf.com/2012/10/professor-hot-air-nozzle

The question is where does this document state that the peoples listed therein are intended for slaughter? It doesn't.

No, from what I remember of the details it doesn't because they used veiled language and discussed more specifics after the formal meeting.  Have you reviewed the testimony of Eichmann?  He directly states that the Fuehrer ordered the physical extermination of the Jews.  Everyone knew what was being discussed.  But in case, for some strange reason you reject the testimony of Eichmann, here is another set of original documents for your perusal. 

Harvard Law Library is assembling a digital collection of original documents.  Here you can see the opening statement of the Nuremberg Trials by the United States of America. 

(http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/imagedir/HLSL_NMT01/HLSL_NUR_00565002.jpg)


If you care to learn more about it, you can read the entire document, and have a look around the site and read the testimonies and see the original Nazi documents.  The compilation and preservation of the documents is still underway. 

Havard Law School Library (http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/php/pflip.php?caseid=HLSL_NMT01&docnum=565&numpages=62&startpage=1&title=Opening+Statement+for+the+United+States+of+America.&color_setting=C)




The Transcripts   

 

"Currently, a portion of the Medical Case transcript is the only trial transcript material we are able to make available. The portion offered covers the first seven days of the proceedings. The full Medical Trial extends from 21 November 1946 (defense motion for continuance) through 20 August 1947 (sentences for those convicted). It includes witness testimony, the presentation of exhibits, oral arguments by counsel, and rulings by the tribunal. (It does not include the pre-trial indictment and arraignment, the post-trial appeals, the full text of the exhibits, or the written briefs.) The English language transcript fills twenty-three bound volumes and 11538 pages.

This transcript text was keyed in from the microfilm version of the trial transcript held by the National Archives (NARA), and then proofread and edited to conform to the text in the Harvard Law School Library Nuremberg collection. In particular, the pagination was adjusted when necessary to match the Harvard copy rather than the NARA copy when the two differed; therefore, document citations in the transcript will match the transcript citations in the analysis of the documents. In addition, many typographical errors have been corrected, using brackets when the error appeared in the original text. Although we have not attempted to correct factual errors in the text systematically, some have been corrected when both the error and the correction were obvious. The intended result is a clear text, but not a perfect one. Researchers who require the precise text of the National Archives copy, errors included, should consult the NARA microfilm."

http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/NurTranscript/TranscriptSearches/tran_about.php





It is said that we all are entitled to our own opinions, but not our own facts. It is important that those of us who knew those who fought the war, knew those who liberated the camps, knew neighbors and co - workers whose families disappeared after deportation or who survived stand and shout the truth.

Whatever the modern state of Israel is and regardless of the real miscarriages of justice suffered by the Palestinians and regardless of the stupidity and arrogance of American post war mideast foreign policy - regardless of any of that, what occurred at the hand of Hitler's Reich and its collaborators between 1932 and 1945 can never be forgotten or be excused or diminished. To do so is to risk the loss of our humanity and to imperil one's soul. To do so ensures repetition of history's worst excess.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 19, 2013, 11:27:21 PM
from what I remember of the details it doesn't because they used veiled language and discussed more specifics after the formal meeting.  Have you reviewed the testimony of Eichmann?  He directly states that the Fuehrer ordered the physical extermination of the Jews.  Everyone knew what was being discussed.  But in case, for some strange reason you reject the testimony of Eichmann, here is another set of original documents for your perusal.  

Harvard Law Library is assembling a digital collection of original documents.  Here you can see the opening statement of the Nuremberg Trials by the United States of America.  

(http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/imagedir/HLSL_NMT01/HLSL_NUR_00565002.jpg)


If you care to learn more about it, you can read the entire document, and have a look around the site and read the testimonies and see the original Nazi documents.  The compilation and preservation of the documents is still underway.  

Havard Law School Library (http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/php/pflip.php?caseid=HLSL_NMT01&docnum=565&numpages=62&startpage=1&title=Opening+Statement+for+the+United+States+of+America.&color_setting=C)

The Transcripts   

"Currently, a portion of the Medical Case transcript is the only trial transcript material we are able to make available. The portion offered covers the first seven days of the proceedings. The full Medical Trial extends from 21 November 1946 (defense motion for continuance) through 20 August 1947 (sentences for those convicted). It includes witness testimony, the presentation of exhibits, oral arguments by counsel, and rulings by the tribunal. (It does not include the pre-trial indictment and arraignment, the post-trial appeals, the full text of the exhibits, or the written briefs.) The English language transcript fills twenty-three bound volumes and 11538 pages.

This transcript text was keyed in from the microfilm version of the trial transcript held by the National Archives (NARA), and then proofread and edited to conform to the text in the Harvard Law School Library Nuremberg collection. In particular, the pagination was adjusted when necessary to match the Harvard copy rather than the NARA copy when the two differed; therefore, document citations in the transcript will match the transcript citations in the analysis of the documents. In addition, many typographical errors have been corrected, using brackets when the error appeared in the original text. Although we have not attempted to correct factual errors in the text systematically, some have been corrected when both the error and the correction were obvious. The intended result is a clear text, but not a perfect one. Researchers who require the precise text of the National Archives copy, errors included, should consult the NARA microfilm."

http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/NurTranscript/TranscriptSearches/tran_about.php

You are relying on testimony at the Nuremburg trials.  
I can elaborate, but my short answer reply to resorting to such evidence is that I have seen convincing evidence that the Nuremburg trials used methods including torture and threats to exact confessions which were false.  That would make it a model of tyranny for victors over weak and power uber alles which is exactly how capitalism has shaped post-war american society.  The weak are made to conform regardless of truth or inconvenient laws or traditions.

I will take a look at Eichmann's testimony as you suggest when I get the chance.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 19, 2013, 11:42:04 PM
'The Juggler' is my favorite Kirk Douglas movie of all time.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 20, 2013, 04:16:20 AM
If you have a source with no axe to grind that would be great.
Does quoting you qualify?
Answering me would suffice  ;)

Marxists are against the state of Israel. Some extreme right-wing Jews are too. Naturally enough they would want to come up for their own reasons for decrying the existence of Israel
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 20, 2013, 04:18:09 AM
Marxists are in general anti-Israel - seeing it as a fascist extension of US capitalism; it's why 'traditionally' the Soviet Union was pro-Arab.
...
My communist friends are all dead-set pro-Palestinian
Although my sentiments are perhaps slightly more anarchist than Marxian, you can count me along with your communist friends on this one.

And thus an example of convergence. Both Marxists and neo-Nazis decry Israel. That they both dislike Israel is one thing. If some nut came along and said that they were working together, it would be highly suspect

Like claims Zionists and Nazis worked together
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 20, 2013, 04:21:09 AM
You are relying on testimony at the Nuremburg trials.  
I can elaborate, but my short answer reply to resorting to such evidence is that I have seen convincing evidence that the Nuremburg trials used methods including torture and threats to exact confessions which were false.  That would make it a model of tyranny for victors over weak and power uber alles which is exactly how capitalism has shaped post-war american society.  The weak are made to conform regardless of truth or inconvenient laws or traditions.

I will take a look at Eichmann's testimony as you suggest when I get the chance.

When someone defends Nazis and saying they were weak, and in effect victimised, and then claims that they're not a Nazi apologist one can see two distinct claims at work.

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 20, 2013, 04:29:34 AM
I would like to point out that this webpage is honoring Nazi collaborators.  

Anyone can be selective with facts.

I could, if I wished, point out that Oscar Schindler was a Nazi... as he was
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 20, 2013, 04:30:05 AM
'The Juggler' is my favorite Kirk Douglas movie of all time.

Good for you. That must excuse your defence of evil then
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 20, 2013, 05:21:40 AM
What about those that support the Nazis, but think that the whole Jew thing was somewhat misguided and really should not have happened, and if they would have been nice to the Jews everyone would be speaking German now?

What's the "Jew thing"?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 20, 2013, 07:00:34 AM
Marxists are in general anti-Israel - seeing it as a fascist extension of US capitalism; it's why 'traditionally' the Soviet Union was pro-Arab.
...
My communist friends are all dead-set pro-Palestinian
Although my sentiments are perhaps slightly more anarchist than Marxian, you can count me along with your communist friends on this one.

And thus an example of convergence. Both Marxists and neo-Nazis decry Israel. That they both dislike Israel is one thing. If some nut came along and said that they were working together, it would be highly suspect

Like claims Zionists and Nazis worked together
You're wrong about that.

NS Germans and Jewish Zionists were in effect Nationalists whose main concern were for  the betterment and defense of their ethnic, cultural and religious heritage and people, polar opposites of the borderless,atheist, raceless belief system of International Communism or what you would describe as "Marxism".

Nazi's and Zio-Nazi's have more in common than you would believe.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 20, 2013, 07:17:16 AM
If you have a source with no axe to grind that would be great.
Does quoting you qualify?
Answering me would suffice  ;)

Marxists are against the state of Israel. Some extreme right-wing Jews are too. Naturally enough they would want to come up for their own reasons for decrying the existence of Israel
So just what does a "socialist" like yourself believe about the current state of Israel?

Do you believe they have the "right" to exist?

Personally I believe any people that fight for the right of self-determination can have whatever nation, land or country they can obtain through their own efforts, if Israel has estabished itself on it's own merits, then so be it.

And if she dies tommorrow, then so be that as well.

We don't seem to shed any tears for any other nation or people that have been selected for extinction for one reason or another, I don't see a global effort to re-establish  lands for the native tribes in the Americas due in part to they somehow have some "right to exist".
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 20, 2013, 07:33:53 AM
Quote
Why did Hitler hate the Jews?

He was a racist nut.
"racism" is another bogus word made up by Communists Leftists like Trotsky and his ilk.

What do you mean by "racism"? What defines that word? Who defines it?

Hitler and the NS were if anything, ethno-centric and ultra-patriotic or nationalistic, with the belief system of taking care of what was good for Germany first, not the global banksters, not the International Marxists, Germany for Germans above all, not global domination like world wide Communism or the "Sun never setting" on their Empire like their British antagonists.

Germany for Germans. Now that's a radical concept then  like it is today. Any nation on the planet that takes steps to protect it's own interests first is somehow labeled "radical" or a "tyranny" unless it has support of the Western "democracies" (what a joke).

Which brings us to what the Zionists believe as well, the first question is, "Is it good for Jews"? That is always the main concern.

Which is understandable. But whenever the nonJew or "goyim" ask this question it becomes a problem or somehow percieved as "racist" or evil and all of the sudden must be attacked and suppressed before it gains any real recognition or mommentum in garnishing a people to take care of their interests first and not the International "community".
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 20, 2013, 08:51:31 AM
So just what does a "socialist" like yourself believe about the current state of Israel?

Do you believe they have the "right" to exist?
Yes
Personally I believe any people that fight for the right of self-determination can have whatever nation, land or country they can obtain through their own efforts, if Israel has estabished itself on it's own merits, then so be it.

And if she dies tommorrow, then so be that as well.
Great. What's this got to do with your apology for evil?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 20, 2013, 08:54:07 AM
Quote
Why did Hitler hate the Jews?

He was a racist nut.
"racism" is another bogus word made up by Communists Leftists like Trotsky and his ilk.

I've already addressed this. Marx himself would not have called himself Jewish. Certainly people with only one grand-parent would not. And yet Nazis defined these people as "Jews"

As if being "Jewish" had certain social traits that are inherited

You agree with the Nazi definition - that they are eternally Jewish.

I note too earlier you claimed I'd stated something about your posts that you said you never wrote. I evidenced this. You've quietly dropped that one.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 20, 2013, 08:59:10 AM
You're wrong about that.

NS Germans and Jewish Zionists were in effect Nationalists whose main concern were for  the betterment and defense of their ethnic, cultural and religious heritage and people, polar opposites of the borderless,atheist, raceless belief system of International Communism or what you would describe as "Marxism".

Nazi's and Zio-Nazi's have more in common than you would believe.

That isn't a rebuttal of what I said. You claiming that they have more in common doesn't mean that they worked together!

I evidenced where people can have converging ideas and still not work together.

Another example: I as an Orthodox believe that God created the world. I am not a 'creationist' however (as this is defined as someone who believes in creation science - and as St. Basil said we shouldn't tie our faith to science). And that's even where we fairly much agree on a point; that God created the world!

Your say so that Zionists and Nazis worked together is not evidenced by anything from the Nazi side of things. The evidence presented so far is from those groups who have a vested interest in discrediting the state of Israel - which is not synonymous with Israel. Sending people to Palestine does not mean that the state of Israel (as it is) had to be the only conclusion. Some advocated sharing a state with the Arabs.

But that is yet ANOTHER hole in your apology for Nazism.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 20, 2013, 09:08:00 AM
Germany for Germans. Now that's a radical concept then  like it is today. Any nation on the planet that takes steps to protect it's own interests first is somehow labeled "radical" or a "tyranny" unless it has support of the Western "democracies" (what a joke).


The way you use it, and the Nazis used it, is racist. It's defined on a racist understanding of what it means to be 'German'.

Many Jews who's roots in Germany was quite old, fought for Germany in World War One. They considered themselves 'Germans.'

Along comes Hitler and redefined them as being something that was considered an antithesis of German-ness

Germany was know for its leadership in science. Yet German scientists who were also Jewish (as defined by Nazism) were found to be unwanted in Germany.

I am Australian. You don't know the colour of my skin or my ethnic background. I am as Australian as many people who 'look' Chinese - who have been in Australia as long as my relatives, and who have fought in Australia's wars, such as WWI.

However there are racists here too who define these people on how they appear. To racists they will always be 'Asian' first. Racism is long-standing here too, and in fact was government policy - regardless of which political party was in power. Known as the White Australia Policy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Australia_Policy). We didn't round up people and gas them, as the people you apologise for did, but it was racist, never-the-less.

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: mike on April 20, 2013, 11:07:18 AM
NS Germans and Jewish Zionists were in effect Nationalists whose main concern were for  the betterment and defense of their ethnic, cultural and religious heritage and people, polar opposites of the borderless,atheist, raceless belief system of International Communism or what you would describe as "Marxism".

Hitler was a religious person and the III Reich endorsed Christianity.

I learn something new from this thread every day. I must consult my parents (History majors both).
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: FatherGiryus on April 20, 2013, 11:19:33 AM
Er, well, not exactly.  The National Socialist German Workers' Party was officially non-religious.  Most of the higher-ups in the Party eschewed the Christian religions and took up pagan practices (hence the use of runes in their symbolism).

Hitler's Christianity was largely informed by Wagner.  Here's a brief quote on Wagner's "christianity":

Incomparably fewer in individual numbers than the lower races, the ruin of the white races may be referred to their having been obliged to mix with them; whereby, as remarked already, they suffered more from the loss of their purity than the others could gain by the ennobling of their blood [...] To us Equality is only thinkable as based upon a universal moral concord, such as we can but deem true Christianity elect to bring about.  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_controversies#Racism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_controversies#Racism))


Hitler misappropriated Christianity for his own purposes, just as his Party used Nietsche and Wagner to further their own transparently unchristian attitudes and ideas.  Calling Hitler a 'Christian' is tantamount to calling Stalin 'Orthodox'.

Hitler would have gotten nowhere without the cooperation of the German Army, whose motto was "Gott Mit Uns."  He needed to be 'Christian' far more than he actually was.  Kind of like American presidents who must have a photo op holding a Bible and strolling to church, yet rarely going when there is no media attention.


NS Germans and Jewish Zionists were in effect Nationalists whose main concern were for  the betterment and defense of their ethnic, cultural and religious heritage and people, polar opposites of the borderless,atheist, raceless belief system of International Communism or what you would describe as "Marxism".

Hitler was a religious person and the III Reich endorsed Christianity.

I learn something new from this thread every day. I must consult my parents (History majors both).
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 20, 2013, 11:31:45 AM
Er, well, not exactly.  The National Socialist German Workers' Party was officially non-religious.  Most of the higher-ups in the Party eschewed the Christian religions and took up pagan practices (hence the use of runes in their symbolism).

Hitler's Christianity was largely informed by Wagner.  Here's a brief quote on Wagner's "christianity":

Incomparably fewer in individual numbers than the lower races, the ruin of the white races may be referred to their having been obliged to mix with them; whereby, as remarked already, they suffered more from the loss of their purity than the others could gain by the ennobling of their blood [...] To us Equality is only thinkable as based upon a universal moral concord, such as we can but deem true Christianity elect to bring about.  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_controversies#Racism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_controversies#Racism))


Hitler misappropriated Christianity for his own purposes, just as his Party used Nietsche and Wagner to further their own transparently unchristian attitudes and ideas.  Calling Hitler a 'Christian' is tantamount to calling Stalin 'Orthodox'.

Hitler would have gotten nowhere without the cooperation of the German Army, whose motto was "Gott Mit Uns."  He needed to be 'Christian' far more than he actually was.  Kind of like American presidents who must have a photo op holding a Bible and strolling to church, yet rarely going when there is no media attention.
[/font][/size]


I agree with you. Hitler spoke highly of Christianity only so long as he needed to... when he assumed political power it was only in coalition with Christian conservatives, so naturally enough Hitler told them what they wanted to hear

Von Papen was in partnership with Hitler. Franz von Papen was Catholic, and the party he was with (until c.1932); the Centre Party was Catholic.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Velsigne on April 20, 2013, 11:46:40 AM
Hitler was raised Catholic, iirc, and is said to have spat out the host.  His anti-religious viewpoint has been extensively discussed in biographies and works of history.

The Nazis actually came up with their own version of a 'church' with portraits of Hitler and Nazi flags adorning the buildings, like a cult of the Fuerher.  It was created to usurp the Evangelical Lutheran church and replace it with Nazi propaganda.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Velsigne on April 20, 2013, 11:58:12 AM

You are relying on testimony at the Nuremburg trials.  
I can elaborate, but my short answer reply to resorting to such evidence is that I have seen convincing evidence that the Nuremburg trials used methods including torture and threats to exact confessions which were false.  That would make it a model of tyranny for victors over weak and power uber alles which is exactly how capitalism has shaped post-war american society.  The weak are made to conform regardless of truth or inconvenient laws or traditions.

I will take a look at Eichmann's testimony as you suggest when I get the chance.


Yes, the United States has made a tremendous effort to export our values around the globe.  And in the cases of Germany and Japan, Thank God! That does not make the Nuremberg Trials a farce or kangaroo court of some type.  There is actually a lot of evidence on that site if you look at it.  

And to add, one of those U.S.A. values give you the right to get on an American website and put forth Holocaust denial conspiracy theories.  Neo-Nazis in Germany have had to move their sites offshore to the United States so they can try to make a platform to spread their propaganda.

Even the Germans themselves own up to what they did.  

The problem with conspiracy theorists is that nothing will ever be acceptable to them except another conspiracy theory.  Everything that doesn't agree with the conspiracy theory is dismissed, no matter how compelling the evidence.  

I grew up watching old World at War documentary history films, and watched old crappy quality film footage of Germans shooting Jews into large trenches, and showed trenches full of dead, skeletal bodies.  I remember one officer shooting someone in the back of the head, and he was sprayed with blood, which really disgusted him.  More evidence.

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Velsigne on April 20, 2013, 12:22:44 PM
Archbishop Damaskinos of Athens: http://www.raoulwallenberg.net/es/generales/archbishop-damaskinos



Considering that the livelihood of the Athens Chief of police Angelos Evert was spent hunting communists, I doubt that he saved more peope than he killed and endangered - including jews.  

The post-war anti-communist government of Greece was based upon this Nazi racist system of which he was an active part. 

The Greek communists led by Aris Velouchiotis and Stefanos Sarafis were the greatest friends of both jews and Greek peasants.  Police chief Angelos Evert and Bishop Damaskinos were part of the Nazi system that persecuted jews and communists alike in WWII Greece.  

Frieends of Greek Jewry * bestows annual Moral Courage Award on General Stefanos Sarafis
http://www.internationalwallofprayer.org/A-139-Awards-of-Moral-Courage-Rescue-of-Greek-Jews.html

*of the Kehila Kenosha Synagogue of Greek Jews in Manhattan, NY (Romaniote)

It appeared that the fascist Greek government which the CIA and British had Sarafis assassinated by an american military man in the mid-1950's.
Sarafis himself did write an excellent history of the war in 1946 from the communist perspective.


You are mixing up time periods here and not addressing the real evidence that exists in Greece as to Nazi protocols and actions of rounding up and sending Greek Jews to their deaths.  Greek Orthodox priests were also sent to death camps and killed for attempting to hide and protect Jews.

Among the first things the Nazis did upon their arrival in Greece was to demand lists of all the Jewry.  It was clear what was going on. 

The Greeks had a vigorous resistance, if not the most effective resistance in all of Europe, to the Nazi invasion.  All this while a famine hit right after Germans arrived, and people were dropping dead in the streets.  They couldn't even bury them all.  It was truly horrible. 

Now you are denigrating Greeks for being the only ones who dared stand up to the Nazi plan of 'exterminating' all the Jews. 
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 20, 2013, 01:25:27 PM
Quote
Great. What's this got to do with your apology for evil?
Show me any apologetics for "evil" in any of my posts.

Quote
I've already addressed this. Marx himself would not have called himself Jewish
And I've addressed the fact that Marx was still considered a Jew amongst his own people/religion, regardless of his father's supposed "conversion" to Luthernism. both his parents were ethincally Jewish, most importantly his biological mother, which in turn makes him always a Jew according to Orthodox Judaism.And most other sects for that matter. The Jews themselves declare this, I'm not concerned what Marx would have called himself. He was and always will be consider a Jew according to the Jews themselves;

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/whojew1.html

According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew; one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish. According to Reform Judaism, a person is a Jew if they were born to either a Jewish mother or a Jewish father. Also, Reform Judaism stresses the importance of being raised Jewish; if a child is born to Jewish parents and was not raised Jewish then the child is not considered Jewish. According to the Orthodox movement, the father’s religion and whether the person practices is immaterial. No affirmation or upbringing is needed, as long as the mother was Jewish.



Quote
Certainly people with only one grand-parent would not. And yet Nazis defined these people as "Jews"

Wrong again, they were defined as "Mischling", sort of the German version of what spanish Latin Americans would describe as "Mestizo", in other words, crossbreeds or half-breeds. but many of these "partial" Jews were active and even instrumental in NS society even serving in the German Army during WWII;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mischling

According to the 1939 Reich census, there were about 72,000 Mischlinge of the 1st degree, some 39,000 of the 2nd degree, and probably tens of thousands more of higher degrees, which, however, were not recorded.[19]

"According to historian and Israeli Army and U.S. Marine Corps veteran Bryan Mark Rigg, up to 160,000 soldiers who were one-quarter, one-half, and even full Jewish served in the German armed forces during World War II, including several generals and admirals and at least one field marshal, Erhard Milch.[20]"

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 20, 2013, 01:38:24 PM
Quote
As if being "Jewish" had certain social traits that are inherited
What? Where did I say this? At any rate, Judaism is the only religion that seems to be "inherited", literally.

Quote
You agree with the Nazi definition - that they are eternally Jewish.

No, Jews believe this. I don't agree with nothing  "eternal"outside what the RCC teaches.

Quote
I note too earlier you claimed I'd stated something about your posts that you said you never wrote. I evidenced this. You've quietly dropped that one.
What? Where? You make so many damn posts I can't keep up with your rhetoric since I neither have the time or the motivation to answer everyone of your false accusations and detraction of my character just because I don't believe everything you ever read or wrote about Jews, Nazis and the "holocaust"™.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: mike on April 20, 2013, 01:47:23 PM
Offered to be killed instead of some Jewish man in Auschwitz (he took blame for him). The Germans squirted him with gasoline and put on fire.

(http://s.v3.tvp.pl/images/d/b/9/uid_db943e0fe06834a1725c8be1a9ec15041354793827321_width_700_play_0_pos_3_gs_0.jpg)
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 20, 2013, 01:53:21 PM
You're wrong about that.

NS Germans and Jewish Zionists were in effect Nationalists whose main concern were for  the betterment and defense of their ethnic, cultural and religious heritage and people, polar opposites of the borderless,atheist, raceless belief system of International Communism or what you would describe as "Marxism".

Nazi's and Zio-Nazi's have more in common than you would believe.

That isn't a rebuttal of what I said. You claiming that they have more in common doesn't mean that they worked together!

I evidenced where people can have converging ideas and still not work together.

Another example: I as an Orthodox believe that God created the world. I am not a 'creationist' however (as this is defined as someone who believes in creation science - and as St. Basil said we shouldn't tie our faith to science). And that's even where we fairly much agree on a point; that God created the world!

Your say so that Zionists and Nazis worked together is not evidenced by anything from the Nazi side of things. The evidence presented so far is from those groups who have a vested interest in discrediting the state of Israel - which is not synonymous with Israel. Sending people to Palestine does not mean that the state of Israel (as it is) had to be the only conclusion. Some advocated sharing a state with the Arabs.

But that is yet ANOTHER hole in your apology for Nazism.
I never said anything on this thread that Nazi's and Zionists "collaborated" but I have heard this all before but I haven't "evidenced" either way. What I have said is that both Nazism and Zionism, as in the state of Israel are beleif systems with Nationalist tendencies, they seem to be to be the opposite sides of the same Nationalist coin except for the fact that Zionism is much more religiously/ethnically charged on this issue. Race or ethinicty is a much more imprtant factor to the Zionists than the German Nazi's who eventually allowed other ethnicities into  the NS Reich. NS was more of a political movement allowing different religions, ethnicities and races under their umbrella as compared to Jewish Zionism with it's exclusive members only Jewish club.

This is blatanlty obvious but drives Zionists/Jewish apologists like yourself crazy for merely pointing it out.
(http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/Themes/Lent2010/images/warnpmod.gif) Because of what many would describe as hate literature you have posted on this thread you are immediately being placed on post moderation provisionally for a period of 99 days.  You raise some interesting points for discussion, but the promotion of holocaust denial is a criminal offence in many countries.  The aggressive tone used against other posters is  unnecessary and has contributed to a poisoning of the "atmosphere" on this board at a time when Orthodox Christians are still deeply immersed in their lenten discipline. Additionally, the ad hominems you sometimes resort to are not permitted.  I am going to consult with the rest of the moderation team.  Over the next couple of days we will together decide whether your moderation status should be lowered to warning level, increased, or remain the same.  

Pravoslavbob, Non-religious topics moderator
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 20, 2013, 02:06:04 PM
Germany for Germans. Now that's a radical concept then  like it is today. Any nation on the planet that takes steps to protect it's own interests first is somehow labeled "radical" or a "tyranny" unless it has support of the Western "democracies" (what a joke).


The way you use it, and the Nazis used it, is racist. It's defined on a racist understanding of what it means to be 'German'.

Many Jews who's roots in Germany was quite old, fought for Germany in World War One. They considered themselves 'Germans.'

Along comes Hitler and redefined them as being something that was considered an antithesis of German-ness

Germany was know for its leadership in science. Yet German scientists who were also Jewish (as defined by Nazism) were found to be unwanted in Germany.

I am Australian. You don't know the colour of my skin or my ethnic background. I am as Australian as many people who 'look' Chinese - who have been in Australia as long as my relatives, and who have fought in Australia's wars, such as WWI.

However there are racists here too who define these people on how they appear. To racists they will always be 'Asian' first. Racism is long-standing here too, and in fact was government policy - regardless of which political party was in power. Known as the White Australia Policy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Australia_Policy). We didn't round up people and gas them, as the people you apologise for did, but it was racist, never-the-less.


And yet Jews were serving in the Wehrmacht and the Reich as well. so go figure.

You can read all about it.

http://www.amazon.com/Lives-Hitlers-Jewish-Soldiers-Descent/dp/0700616381

Don't even get started on "racism" and Asians.

Most Asian nations and the Orient happen to be  amongst the most racially and ethnically conscious and defensive nations on the planet.

And it's not a problem with me.

But it is with paranoid, delusionals and globalists who hate such things as borders, language, culture and diversity.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Gorazd on April 20, 2013, 02:20:04 PM
The Greeks had a vigorous resistance, if not the most effective resistance in all of Europe, to the Nazi invasion.  All this while a famine hit right after Germans arrived, and people were dropping dead in the streets.  They couldn't even bury them all.  It was truly horrible. 

Now you are denigrating Greeks for being the only ones who dared stand up to the Nazi plan of 'exterminating' all the Jews. 

Sorry, but Greece is not the only country that dared to stand up against the Holocaust. Bulgaria and Denmark could be mentioned for example.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: mike on April 20, 2013, 02:20:39 PM
NS was more of a political movement allowing different religions, ethnicities and races under their umbrella

Were you homeschooled?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 20, 2013, 02:21:02 PM
Er, well, not exactly.  The National Socialist German Workers' Party was officially non-religious.  Most of the higher-ups in the Party eschewed the Christian religions and took up pagan practices (hence the use of runes in their symbolism).

Hitler's Christianity was largely informed by Wagner.  Here's a brief quote on Wagner's "christianity":

Incomparably fewer in individual numbers than the lower races, the ruin of the white races may be referred to their having been obliged to mix with them; whereby, as remarked already, they suffered more from the loss of their purity than the others could gain by the ennobling of their blood [...] To us Equality is only thinkable as based upon a universal moral concord, such as we can but deem true Christianity elect to bring about.  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_controversies#Racism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_controversies#Racism))


Hitler misappropriated Christianity for his own purposes, just as his Party used Nietsche and Wagner to further their own transparently unchristian attitudes and ideas.  Calling Hitler a 'Christian' is tantamount to calling Stalin 'Orthodox'.

Hitler would have gotten nowhere without the cooperation of the German Army, whose motto was "Gott Mit Uns."  He needed to be 'Christian' far more than he actually was.  Kind of like American presidents who must have a photo op holding a Bible and strolling to church, yet rarely going when there is no media attention.


NS Germans and Jewish Zionists were in effect Nationalists whose main concern were for  the betterment and defense of their ethnic, cultural and religious heritage and people, polar opposites of the borderless,atheist, raceless belief system of International Communism or what you would describe as "Marxism".

Hitler was a religious person and the III Reich endorsed Christianity.

I learn something new from this thread every day. I must consult my parents (History majors both).
And yet Hitler was influenced by much of Christian theology. Though born a Catholic, he seemed to sway towards Luther as time went on and recognized him as one of the spiritual fathers of Germany itself.

At any rate, the offical Nazi policy was basically the belif that the needs of the German people and Germany itself came before squabbling over religious theology. Many Nazis were Christians, many weren't and yes, many were anti-Christianity. Just like in America today, religion then just as now, was a very divisive issue.

But Hitler and most of the upper Nazi's believed the pagans to be kooks even though they used them as well for political and cultural advantage in some way. To be honest, I think many were atheists or ambivalent towards religion either way.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 20, 2013, 02:26:50 PM
NS was more of a political movement allowing different religions, ethnicities and races under their umbrella

Were you homeschooled?
Were you?

Having said that;

(http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/images/Bosnian-Muslims-reading-pro_jpg.jpg)

(http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/images/4-Husseini-nazi_jpg_jpg_jpg.jpg)


(http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/images/troop%20inspection_jpg_jpg_jpg.jpg)



German Nazi high-ranking officers inspecting the Hanzar Division of Amin Al Husseini.
 
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: mike on April 20, 2013, 02:30:06 PM
NS was more of a political movement allowing different religions, ethnicities and races under their umbrella

Were you homeschooled?
Were you?

Having said that;

(http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/images/Bosnian-Muslims-reading-pro_jpg.jpg)

(http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/images/4-Husseini-nazi_jpg_jpg_jpg.jpg)


(http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/images/troop%20inspection_jpg_jpg_jpg.jpg)



German Nazi high-ranking officers inspecting the Hanzar Division of Amin Al Husseini.
 


Just read the 25 points of NSDAP program. If you won't understand it - read again.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: podkarpatska on April 20, 2013, 02:58:18 PM

The problem with conspiracy theorists is that nothing will ever be acceptable to them except another conspiracy theeory.  Everything that doesn't agree with the conspiracy theory is dismissed, no matter how compelling the evidence.


Amen.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 20, 2013, 03:41:42 PM
Offered to be killed instead of some Jewish man in Auschwitz (he took blame for him). The Germans squirted him with gasoline and put on fire.

(http://s.v3.tvp.pl/images/d/b/9/uid_db943e0fe06834a1725c8be1a9ec15041354793827321_width_700_play_0_pos_3_gs_0.jpg)
That's horrible. Is he a saint? Who is he? Do you have any sources on this?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: mike on April 20, 2013, 03:47:22 PM
Offered to be killed instead of some Jewish man in Auschwitz (he took blame for him). The Germans squirted him with gasoline and put on fire.

(http://s.v3.tvp.pl/images/d/b/9/uid_db943e0fe06834a1725c8be1a9ec15041354793827321_width_700_play_0_pos_3_gs_0.jpg)
That's horrible. Is he a saint? Who is he? Do you have any sources on this?

I have but why would I share them if you don't believe in Holocaust and death camps? According to you he died in the 1980' due to old age.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 20, 2013, 03:54:01 PM
Offered to be killed instead of some Jewish man in Auschwitz (he took blame for him). The Germans squirted him with gasoline and put on fire.

(http://s.v3.tvp.pl/images/d/b/9/uid_db943e0fe06834a1725c8be1a9ec15041354793827321_width_700_play_0_pos_3_gs_0.jpg)
That's horrible. Is he a saint? Who is he? Do you have any sources on this?

I have but why would I share them if you don't believe in Holocaust and death camps? According to you he died in the 1980' due to old age.
Then don't.

BTW, I never said no one died or civilians weren't murdered during WWII, so why don't you and a few others stop with the nonsense.

I just don't buy into the whole "holoco$t" industry and racket it's become.

I'm just interested in the truth, I don't care what you or anyone else on here thinks of me.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Maria on April 20, 2013, 05:04:33 PM


(http://s.v3.tvp.pl/images/d/b/9/uid_db943e0fe06834a1725c8be1a9ec15041354793827321_width_700_play_0_pos_3_gs_0.jpg)


I do not care for your nasty rhetoric in this thread, Michal, but since you posted this icon, WHO IS THIS SAINT, and WHAT IS HIS FEAST DAY.

Yes, I am shouting so that you will read this post and answer our question.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Maria on April 20, 2013, 05:12:00 PM

You are relying on testimony at the Nuremburg trials.  
I can elaborate, but my short answer reply to resorting to such evidence is that I have seen convincing evidence that the Nuremburg trials used methods including torture and threats to exact confessions which were false.  That would make it a model of tyranny for victors over weak and power uber alles which is exactly how capitalism has shaped post-war american society.  The weak are made to conform regardless of truth or inconvenient laws or traditions.

I will take a look at Eichmann's testimony as you suggest when I get the chance.


Yes, the United States has made a tremendous effort to export our values around the globe.  And in the cases of Germany and Japan, Thank God! That does not make the Nuremberg Trials a farce or kangaroo court of some type.  There is actually a lot of evidence on that site if you look at it.  

And to add, one of those U.S.A. values give you the right to get on an American website and put forth Holocaust denial conspiracy theories.  Neo-Nazis in Germany have had to move their sites offshore to the United States so they can try to make a platform to spread their propaganda.

Even the Germans themselves own up to what they did.  

The problem with conspiracy theorists is that nothing will ever be acceptable to them except another conspiracy theory.  Everything that doesn't agree with the conspiracy theory is dismissed, no matter how compelling the evidence.  

I grew up watching old World at War documentary history films, and watched old crappy quality film footage of Germans shooting Jews into large trenches, and showed trenches full of dead, skeletal bodies.  I remember one officer shooting someone in the back of the head, and he was sprayed with blood, which really disgusted him.  More evidence.



I grew up watching those old historical documents too.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: mike on April 20, 2013, 05:14:06 PM
I do not care for your nasty rhetoric in this thread, Michal, but since you posted this icon, WHO IS THIS SAINT, and WHAT IS HIS FEAST DAY.

St. Gregory Peradze. In the Eastern Orthodox Church his feastday is Dec 6. I doubt your Church commemorates him.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Maria on April 20, 2013, 05:24:38 PM
I do not care for your nasty rhetoric in this thread, Michal, but since you posted this icon, WHO IS THIS SAINT, and WHAT IS HIS FEAST DAY.

St. Gregory Peradze. In the Eastern Orthodox Church his feastday is Dec 6. I doubt your Church commemorates him.

You might be pleasantly surprised. We actually celebrate a lot of the saints honored in the OCA and in the ROCOR.

http://liturgia.cerkiew.pl/page.php?id=156
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 20, 2013, 08:16:11 PM
Show me any apologetics for "evil" in any of my posts.
I'd simply have to re-post everything you wrote.

According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother
That's not true. Not only have we gone over this, you're ignoring
a) the Nazi definition of a Jew
and
b) any link between Marx as a Jew and communism

Whilst you can cite a single Jewish opinion on this, they aren't the spokespeople for Judaism.

Wrong again, they were defined as "Mischling", sort of the German version of what spanish Latin Americans would describe as "Mestizo", in other words, crossbreeds or half-breeds. but many of these "partial" Jews were active and even instrumental in NS society even serving in the German Army during WWII;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mischling
If you read your own source it would note, as I have, that many "Jews" were in fact Protestants.
Converts from Judaism usually adopted that Christian denomination dominant in the area of Germany where they used to live. Therefore about 80% of the Gentile Germans persecuted as Jews according to the Nuremberg Laws were affiliated with one of the 28 regionally delineated Protestants church bodies
(ibid.)

However saying that they were "Mischling" and not Jews, is an attempt at diversion. They were "Jewish Mischling" - they had to wear the Star of David - as other Jews, not any other symbol

So not only are you attempting an answer by diversion, your own source supports what I said!
According to the 1939 Reich census, there were about 72,000 Mischlinge of the 1st degree, some 39,000 of the 2nd degree, and probably tens of thousands more of higher degrees, which, however, were not recorded.[19]
Which is not addressing my point...
"According to historian and Israeli Army and U.S. Marine Corps veteran Bryan Mark Rigg, up to 160,000 soldiers who were one-quarter, one-half, and even full Jewish served in the German armed forces during World War II, including several generals and admirals and at least one field marshal, Erhard Milch.[20]"
That's also been covered

There are many examples of Jews who successfully hid their Jewishness. If you've any more 'facts' in your apology for evil, I'd still be interested in reading them
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 20, 2013, 08:18:51 PM
And yet Hitler was influenced by much of Christian theology.

Show me the causal links between Christianity and anything Hitler did.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 20, 2013, 11:10:06 PM
And yet Jews were serving in the Wehrmacht and the Reich as well. so go figure.

Already addressed this. Exceptions don't make rules. Japanese served with the US, despite their families being kept in detention. There's these interesting cases throughout history. British PoWs were recruited into the SS, too.

You apology for evil isn't negated by exceptions.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 20, 2013, 11:14:13 PM
Were you?
That's not an answer to the question
Having said that;

What's the relevance of Nazis who hated the Jews recruiting Moslems who hated Jews?

There were also Ukrainian SS units - even though the Slavs were deemed 'sub-human' by the Nazis.


And oddly enough today there are even Russian Nazis
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 21, 2013, 12:30:15 AM
The weird Nazi apology here; involving all arguments at once would have you believe that the Nazis weren't racist because they had Jews in their army. I believe there were Hindus too!

Well, they had slavs and Bosnian Moslms too. Their allies Hungary and Finland were non-Aryan too. Italy was less-militaristic than German, but was made an ally. Germany made puppet states of slavs; Croatia/Slovenia and, Slovakia.

Does this negate their racism? Not at all. They allied themselves to the very un-Aryan Japanese, and although they railed at communism were, briefly the very best of friends following the Nazi-Soviet Pact.

Same with Hitler and religion; he espoused some Christian values, but hated them.

What does this mean? Nazis were opportunists.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: mike on April 21, 2013, 07:14:52 AM
http://liturgia.cerkiew.pl/page.php?id=156

Nice you googled my parish' website.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 21, 2013, 02:58:52 PM
NS Germans and Jewish Zionists were in effect Nationalists whose main concern were for  the betterment and defense of their ethnic, cultural and religious heritage and people, polar opposites of the borderless,atheist, raceless belief system of International Communism or what you would describe as "Marxism".

Hitler was a religious person and the III Reich endorsed Christianity.

I learn something new from this thread every day. I must consult my parents (History majors both).

I have to say that you make a good point here.  
It appears to me that Hitler's catholicism was nothing more than nominal.

Hitler issued a decree for the euthanasia, killing of weak, old, and disabled people around 1941.  
To his immense credit, the catholic Bishop von Galen of Munster loudly protested against Hitler for this horror and Hitler backed down.

Bishop von Galen was very patriotic and pro-German, and he suddenly died in 1946.
I suspect that the British murdered him because he was an influential public German figure whose image they could not tarnish and whose opinions were quite inconvenient, and historical evidence shows British antipathy towards Bishop von Galen.  I suspect the fact that Bishop von Galen was not pro-allied also explains why he is such a relatively unknown opponent of Hitler.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clemens_August_Graf_von_Galen#Death_and_beatification
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 21, 2013, 03:11:13 PM
It seems to me that devout Frankists like Bishop von Galen and Fr. Paul Marx's Human Life International represent aspects of western catholicism which are commendable. 

"If we are able to extract something good from outside, it is not forbidden.  Let us become approved bankers, gathering the genuine and pure gold and discarding the counterfeit."
- Saint John of Damascus
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: JamesR on April 21, 2013, 03:19:08 PM
Hitler was a religious person and the III Reich endorsed Christianity.

What are you talking about? Hitler was a staunch atheist. He was recorded once saying that Christianity was a bastardization of Judaism that needed to be eradicated off Earth as well. The only time he ever spoke positively of Christianity was during his public speeches, in which he was using it as a propoganda tool to fool the Christian masses in Germany.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Punch on April 21, 2013, 03:38:01 PM
Hitler was a religious person and the III Reich endorsed Christianity.

What are you talking about? Hitler was a staunch atheist. He was recorded once saying that Christianity was a bastardization of Judaism that needed to be eradicated off Earth as well. The only time he ever spoke positively of Christianity was during his public speeches, in which he was using it as a propoganda tool to fool the Christian masses in Germany.

I would not say that he was an atheist.  He was heavily involved in the occult.  I agree that Nazis were not Christians.  It was their intent to "deal with" Roman Catholics and other Christians after they dealt with the Jews.  Most high level Nazis recorded their religion as "God Believing".  They do not mention which God.  My mother and aunts and uncle were all named after old Germanic gods.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 21, 2013, 03:39:45 PM
Hitler was a religious person and the III Reich endorsed Christianity.

What are you talking about? Hitler was a staunch atheist. He was recorded once saying that Christianity was a bastardization of Judaism that needed to be eradicated off Earth as well. The only time he ever spoke positively of Christianity was during his public speeches, in which he was using it as a propoganda tool to fool the Christian masses in Germany.

To be fair to Michael Kalina, I think the context of that statement shows that it was "Charles Martel" who claimed that Hitler was a defender of religion, and Kalina seems to have merely written out the idea in order to consider how absurd it is.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 21, 2013, 03:41:17 PM
I would not say that he was an atheist.  He was heavily involved in the occult.  I agree that Nazis were not Christians.  It was their intent to "deal with" Roman Catholics and other Christians after they dealt with the Jews.  Most high level Nazis recorded their religion as "God Believing".  They do not mention which God.
Very well put.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Romaios on April 21, 2013, 03:46:56 PM
To be fair to Michael Kalina, I think the context of that statement shows that it was "Charles Martel" who claimed that Hitler was a defender of religion, and Kalina seems to have merely written out the idea in order to consider how absurd it is.

Political leaders may well "endorse" one or even several religions without actually believing in any of them, if that is in their best interest.  
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 21, 2013, 03:48:38 PM
Now you are denigrating Greeks ...

I read that Aris Velouchiotis, much like a Greek Fidel Castro, led a peasant movement against the Nazis that succeeded in taking back most of Greece from the Nazis in the early 1940's that limited the Nazis to the big cities of Greece like Athens and Salonica long before they withdrew completely and in fact led to their withdrawal.  I think Aris's anti-Nazi uprising was a good thing.  Do you agree?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 21, 2013, 03:56:04 PM
I just realized that the protest sermons of Bishop von Galen of Munster were the original inspiration for the German anti-Nazi White Rose Society!

Sermon Against the Gestapo of 13 July 1941
By Bishop von Galen of Munster
http://www.priestsforlife.org/preaching/vongalen07-13.htm

Four Sermons in Defiance of the Nazis
By Bishop von Galen of Munster
http://kirchensite.de/downloads/Aktuelles/Predigt_Galen_Englisch.pdf
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Cyrillic on April 21, 2013, 04:07:15 PM
devout Frankists

Did you invent that word yourself?
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 21, 2013, 04:22:42 PM
devout Frankists
Did you invent that word yourself?

I perceive that the term has an ancient history and consider it far more accurate than the phrase Roman Catholic to describe the Church of the Franks.
I picked it up from the Greek Orthodox priest Fr. John Romanides in his excellent book:

'Franks, Romans, Feudalism, and Doctrine'
http://www.romanity.org/htm/rom.03.en.franks_romans_feudalism_and_doctrine.01.htm
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 21, 2013, 04:27:29 PM
devout Frankists

Did you invent that word yourself?

I lived in Greek monasteries for over a year, and this was the term which Greek clergy used to designate the Frankist Church (i.e. the Church which has occupied the Vatican since the year 999).
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 21, 2013, 06:06:06 PM
On a somewhat related note, I think that many folks underestimate just how tough the Japanese were in World War II. They would literally fight until the death of the last man and then would have their women, children and old folks fight too until their whole population was decimated. Man for man they were superior to any army in the world at the time. Most veterans I've talked to have all said that fighting in the Pacific was ten times worse than in Europe. And if it weren't for the atomic bomb and the United States's manufacturing power, I think that they could have taken on any world power at the time individually; even Germany, due to Japan's naval superiority.

If you get the chance, I recommend you watch the Bollywood movie 'Bose - Forgotten Hero' about the extraordinary Subhas Chandra Bose of whom I think of as India's answer to Malcolm X.  I appreciate that the movie depicts Hitler as a bigoted idiot and does a really fine job of placing Bose's relation to Hitler in the right context.  The movie depicts General Tojo in a much better light, and Bose knew both.  The movie is critical of Ghandi, but maintains an overall respect for him.  I afterwards watched Ben Kingsley's 'Ghandi' from the early 1980's and greatly enjoyed both movies.  I suggest reading a bit about Subhas Chandra Bose before watching as he is one of the most enigmatic figures of World War II.  He was Ghandi's political opponent who desired using arms to force the British out, and there is no one more directly responsible for the death of the British empire. The entire movie is on youtube as a whole and also in 10 minute segments, and large segments of it are in English. Awesome movie and historically accurate.  

Subhas Chandra Bose
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subhas_Chandra_Bose

Bose - The Forgotten Hero
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIwqOb4KqGg

The conversation between Bose and his wife in this clip from 4:00 onwards nicely sums up Bose on WWII:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsEFlDLRaAM


Very befitting end of clip where the British Consul of India in Calcutta listens to Bose's anti-British wartime broadcasts to the people of India from Germany:

British Consul:  Try as he might, this fellow Bose will not get much out of Hitler.
Assistant:  How can we be so sure, sir?
British Consul:  I think we know Hitler better than he does.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 21, 2013, 07:11:39 PM
devout Frankists
Did you invent that word yourself?

I perceive that the term has an ancient history and consider it far more accurate than the phrase Roman Catholic to describe the Church of the Franks.
I picked it up from the Greek Orthodox priest Fr. John Romanides in his excellent book:

'Franks, Romans, Feudalism, and Doctrine'
http://www.romanity.org/htm/rom.03.en.franks_romans_feudalism_and_doctrine.01.htm

He doesn't use that term in the site you cited. He uses the term "Frankish". In her history the "Alexiad" Anna Komnene referred to all the crusaders as Franks.

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 21, 2013, 07:14:17 PM
To be fair to Michael Kalina, I think the context of that statement shows that it was "Charles Martel" who claimed that Hitler was a defender of religion, and Kalina seems to have merely written out the idea in order to consider how absurd it is.

Political leaders may well "endorse" one or even several religions without actually believing in any of them, if that is in their best interest.  

Indeed. That's what Napoleon did too.

Stalin, an atheist, released some of the more odious shackles from the Orthodox Church when he needed all the help he could get to fight the Nazis

He was an idealogue, but also an opportunist
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 21, 2013, 07:18:22 PM
On a somewhat related note, I think that many folks underestimate just how tough the Japanese were in World War II. They would literally fight until the death of the last man and then would have their women, children and old folks fight too until their whole population was decimated. Man for man they were superior to any army in the world at the time. Most veterans I've talked to have all said that fighting in the Pacific was ten times worse than in Europe. And if it weren't for the atomic bomb and the United States's manufacturing power, I think that they could have taken on any world power at the time individually; even Germany, due to Japan's naval superiority.

If you get the chance, I recommend you watch the Bollywood movie 'Bose - Forgotten Hero' about the extraordinary Subhas Chandra Bose of whom I think of as India's answer to Malcolm X.  I appreciate that the movie depicts Hitler as a bigoted idiot and does a really fine job of placing Bose's relation to Hitler in the right context.  The movie depicts General Tojo in a much better light, and Bose knew both.  The movie is critical of Ghandi, but maintains an overall respect for him.  I afterwards watched Ben Kingsley's 'Ghandi' from the early 1980's and greatly enjoyed both movies.  I suggest reading a bit about Subhas Chandra Bose before watching as he is one of the most enigmatic figures of World War II.  He was Ghandi's political opponent who desired using arms to force the British out, and there is no one more directly responsible for the death of the British empire. The entire movie is on youtube as a whole and also in 20 minute segments, and large segments of it are in English. Awesome movie and historically accurate.  

Subhas Chandra Bose
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subhas_Chandra_Bose

Bose - The Forgotten Hero
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIwqOb4KqGg

Bose worked with the Japanese - who he trusted to be better imperialists than the British. To that ends he trawled PoW camps to recruit men from the British Indian Army into a pro-Japanese army.

He is considered by some Indians a hero of Indian nationalism. All the Sikhs I have met seem to love him.

He's considered as a traitor by others, because he sided with the enemy.

Funny that some non-Indians would be calling him a 'hero'.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 21, 2013, 07:27:35 PM
devout Frankists

Did you invent that word yourself?

I lived in Greek monasteries for over a year, and this was the term which Greek clergy used to designate the Frankist Church (i.e. the Church which has occupied the Vatican since the year 999).

Why since then? I would imagine it was since c.800 when Charlemagne was up and about. He's the one who approved of the filioque and actually argued that the 'Greek' church had excluded it from the Creed
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 21, 2013, 08:29:49 PM
He was Ghandi's political opponent who desired using arms to force the British out, and there is no one more directly responsible for the death of the British empire. The entire movie is on youtube as a whole and also in 20 minute segments, and large segments of it are in English. Awesome movie and historically accurate.  

Highly questionable statement. A better candidate would be Michael Collins who, in gaining independence for Ireland* was an inspiration not just for those in the empire, but others such as Ho Chi Minh.

The British had, I believe, already promised independence to India. The Government of India Act (1935) had given India a degree of autonomy.

It can also be argued that Britain's military defeat in Singapore, and it's longest recorded retreat through Burma also showed that Britain could not hold onto all its empire.

Significantly it's Gandhi's successors who took India to independence, not Bose.



*-Ireland became independent before WWII, and arguably as Britian's oldest colony was a more significant loss, politically
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 21, 2013, 08:48:24 PM
You are correct about the distinction between "Frankish" and "Frankist".  
I had paid little attention to it, but I henceforth intend to use "Frankish" to be consistent with my sources.

this was the term which Greek clergy used to designate the Frankist Church (i.e. the Church which has occupied the Vatican since the year 999).
Why since then?
That was the year in which the Franks acquired the papacy and the Romans lost it.  


I would imagine it was since c.800 when Charlemagne was up and about. He's the one who approved of the filioque and actually argued that the 'Greek' church had excluded it from the Creed
You are correct.  
Charlemagne did espouse the filioque, and he did argue that he himsle was Roman Emperor and that the East Romans were Greeks.

This is a bit off topic, but the papacy in Rome shifted its political allegiance to the Franks in the mid-700's because the East Roman Emperors were iconoclastic heretics.  This is precisely how Constantinople lost political control of Italy.  

Fr. Romanides says that the militarily powerful but comparatively barbarian and uneducated Frankish rulers held the filioque, and the papacy exercised an oeconomy towards them from the mid-700's until 999 because the Franks would have otherwise installed their own man in the Vatican as pope.  When this in fact happened in the year 999, the underlying reason for the oeconomy vanished.  Within ten years, the Frankish popes publicly endorsed the filioque, and their names ceased to read in the Hagia Sophia from the year 1009 onwards.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 21, 2013, 09:21:47 PM
A better candidate would be Michael Collins who, in gaining independence for Ireland* was an inspiration not just for those in the empire, but others such as Ho Chi Minh.
How did Ho Chi Minh figure significantly in bringing about the fall of the British Empire?

The British had, I believe, already promised independence to India.
If you believe that British faithfulness to their promises has anything to do with why the British left India, then you naively ignore their history.  Clement Attlee said after the fact that the decision was made to leave India because the indigenous troops could no longer be trusted by 1946, and the Indian National History Museum in Delhi dedicates a significant portion of its permanent exhibit to demonstrate that it was precisely the British publicity of Bose's Indian National Army treason trials in 1946 which backfired so badly is what motivated widespread unrest, strikes, mutinies, etc against the British forcing them to withdraw.

The Government of India Act (1935) had given India a degree of autonomy.
No significant group in India accepted the Federal parts of this Act of 1935.  Among other problems, it had no bill of rights for the common man.
If Bose was opposed to it, it sounds like that makes it good enough for you, however.

It can also be argued that Britain's military defeat in Singapore, and it's longest recorded retreat through Burma also showed that Britain could not hold onto all its empire.
Thanks for proving my point for me.
Bose was a major protagonist in both of these events against the British.

Significantly it's Gandhi's successors who took India to independence, not Bose.
False.  According to British prime minister Clement Attleee, it was Indian public reaction to the INA trials which caused the British to leave.
Furthermore, Nehru was the defense lawyer for Bose's men at those trials.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 21, 2013, 09:36:28 PM
Bose worked with the Japanese - who he trusted to be better imperialists than the British.
To that ends he trawled PoW camps to recruit men from the British Indian Army into a pro-Japanese army.
He is considered by some Indians a hero of Indian nationalism. All the Sikhs I have met seem to love him.
He's considered as a traitor by others, because he sided with the enemy.
Funny that some non-Indians would be calling him a 'hero'.

Quote from: montalban: the edited edition
Malcolm X worked with the Muslim Brotherhood - who he trusted to be better politically than the FBI.
To that ends he trawled american prisons to recruit men from the old American system into a pro-civil rights system.
He is considered by some blacks a hero of black nationalism. All the Cubans I have met seem to love him.
He's considered as a traitor by others, because he sided with the enemy.
Funny that some non-blacks would be calling him a 'hero'.
:)
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 22, 2013, 01:40:10 AM
A better candidate would be Michael Collins who, in gaining independence for Ireland* was an inspiration not just for those in the empire, but others such as Ho Chi Minh.
How did Ho Chi Minh figure significantly in bringing about the fall of the British Empire?
I don't believe that's what I said; certainly it's not what I meant. Ho Chih Minh was inspired by the anti-colonial Irish in his own endeavours to topple France.

http://www.illyria.com/irish/mcginn_irishagains.html

If you believe that British faithfulness to their promises has anything to do with why the British left India, then you naively ignore their history.  Clement Attlee said after the fact that the decision was made to leave India because the indigenous troops could no longer be trusted by 1946, and the Indian National History Museum in Delhi dedicates a significant portion of its permanent exhibit to demonstrate that it was precisely the British publicity of Bose's Indian National Army treason trials in 1946 which backfired so badly is what motivated widespread unrest, strikes, mutinies, etc against the British forcing them to withdraw.
Then you're arguing Bose was the cause of India's independence, but unintentionally - because it's how the British trialled him.

No significant group in India accepted the Federal parts of this Act of 1935.  Among other problems, it had no bill of rights for the common man.
Our constitution has no Bill of Rights either, for common man or otherwise. It's irrelevant.

As to no significant group - well Congress contested elections under that system!

If Bose was opposed to it, it sounds like that makes it good enough for you, however.
Bose was a traitor.

It happens that my grand-father and names-sake was in the 2nd AIF (in WWII). Anyone who fought against him and Australia I would not take too kindly too.

But there's several Americans (I'm assuming they are) supporting those who took up arms against the US

Thanks for proving my point for me.
Bose was a major protagonist in both of these events against the British.
And any supporter of the Japanese, no matter how valid their reasons, is no friend of mine

Significantly it's Gandhi's successors who took India to independence, not Bose.
False.  According to British prime minister Clement Attleee, it was Indian public reaction to the INA trials which caused the British to leave.
Furthermore, Nehru was the defense lawyer for Bose's men at those trials.

It's not false. Nehru was a follower of Gandhi.

One doesn't have to be a supporter to offer a defence, either. One can act as a defence on the principal that all people deserve a defence.

Else those who defended the Nazis at Nuremburg would also be Nazis.

H. V. Evatt, leader of the Australian Labor Party fought against the outlawing of the Communist Party, despite the fact that party was a direct threat to his own.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Calwell

It's very common amongst democratic-minded people to defend others ;)
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Charles Martel on April 22, 2013, 08:17:30 AM
Hitler was a religious person and the III Reich endorsed Christianity.

What are you talking about? Hitler was a staunch atheist. He was recorded once saying that Christianity was a bastardization of Judaism that needed to be eradicated off Earth as well. The only time he ever spoke positively of Christianity was during his public speeches, in which he was using it as a propoganda tool to fool the Christian masses in Germany.

To be fair to Michael Kalina, I think the context of that statement shows that it was "Charles Martel" who claimed that Hitler was a defender of religion, and Kalina seems to have merely written out the idea in order to consider how absurd it is.
What I meant was that Hitler in the beginning was defending the German peoples historic relationship with Christianity, especially Luther and the German theologians no matter what "konfession" they belonged to.


I think in the end, Hitler became very jaded with all religion.


I also posted earlier that probably most of the higher ranking Nazis were probably atheists or were thought religion was irrelevant at best.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Cyrillic on April 22, 2013, 08:19:14 AM
devout Frankists
Did you invent that word yourself?

I perceive that the term has an ancient history and consider it far more accurate than the phrase Roman Catholic to describe the Church of the Franks.
I picked it up from the Greek Orthodox priest Fr. John Romanides in his excellent book:

'Franks, Romans, Feudalism, and Doctrine'
http://www.romanity.org/htm/rom.03.en.franks_romans_feudalism_and_doctrine.01.htm

Ah yes, I know about Fr. Romanides and his curious historical theories. The term Frankist Church isn't very accurate though. Most modern-day "Franks" aren't in communion with the Pope.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Romaios on April 22, 2013, 08:52:19 AM
devout Frankists
Did you invent that word yourself?

I perceive that the term has an ancient history and consider it far more accurate than the phrase Roman Catholic to describe the Church of the Franks.
I picked it up from the Greek Orthodox priest Fr. John Romanides in his excellent book:

'Franks, Romans, Feudalism, and Doctrine'
http://www.romanity.org/htm/rom.03.en.franks_romans_feudalism_and_doctrine.01.htm

Ah yes, I know about Fr. Romanides and his curious historical theories. The term Frankist Church isn't very accurate though. Most modern-day "Franks" aren't in communion with the Pope.

The term "Frank(ish)" exists in old Romanian church literature with that meaning as well - there's a text saying that there were two monasteries on Mount Tabor: an Orthodox (pravoslav) one built by Romanian monks and one of the "Franks" (frânci). But it's an anachronism indeed. 
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 22, 2013, 08:59:06 AM
Our constitution has no Bill of Rights either, for common man or otherwise. It's irrelevant.

Bose was a traitor.

It happens that my grand-father and names-sake was in the 2nd AIF (in WWII). Anyone who fought against him and Australia I would not take too kindly too.

And any supporter of the Japanese, no matter how valid their reasons, is no friend of mine

Really enjoyed your candid statements here.  You're quite the old school colonialist.

Nehru was a follower of Gandhi.
No.
Nehru was a snake who used Ghandi's prestige to obtain power which he and his family have used to exploit India to this day.


"Jinnah: India-Partition-Independence is a book written by Jaswant Singh, a former Finance Minister of India and an External Affairs Minister, on Pakistan's founder Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah and the politics associated with the partition of British India. It is currently the latest book written by an Indian politician on the life of Jinnah. The book was released on 17 August 2009 and soon became the subject of controversy, subsequently leading to Singh's expulsion from the Bhartiya Janata Party (BJP). It contains controversial opinions of Singh, claiming that Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru's centralized policy was responsible for partition, and that Jinnah was portrayed as a demon by India for the partition. The book launch ceremony was held at Teen Murti Bhavan in the presence of only a couple of BJP members."

"Singh was expelled by the BJP following a party meeting chaired by L.K. Advani on 19 August 2009 stating that they will not "compromise on matters of ideology or disciple". The government of the Indian state Gujarat banned the book for allegedly having defamatory references towards India's first home minister Vallabhbhai Patel. However, Gujarat lifted the ban on 4 September 2009 after a court struck it down. The Indian newspaper The Hindu claimed "Mark Tully, Meghnad Desai, Ram Jethmalani, Namwar Singh and Hameed Haroon said a new appraisal of Jinnah’s role was needed and Mr. Singh had done a commendable job."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinnah:_India-Partition-Independence

"In interviews with media he quoted BJP as narrow-minded and to have limited thought. His book was later banned in Gujarat. Singh said of the ban "The day we start banning books, we are banning thinking". In 2010, he was readmitted to BJP."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaswant_Singh#Controversy
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 22, 2013, 09:30:38 AM
It happens that my grand-father and names-sake was in the 2nd AIF (in WWII). Anyone who fought against him and Australia I would not take too kindly too.

"The Australian Army.  We'll fight anyone, anywhere, anytime. 
Never missed a war yet, and we're sure not going to miss the next one - even if we have to start it ourselves.
"  ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqDqYoxa3AU
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: sedevacantist on April 23, 2013, 12:41:49 AM
interesting vid by one of your orthodox brothers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=N-N8T8TPOv8#!
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 23, 2013, 03:20:01 AM

Really enjoyed your candid statements here.  You're quite the old school colonialist.[/quote]
I simply pointed out

a) Indians ran for elections under the act you claim next to none did
b) a 'bill of rights' isn't the pinnacle of constitutions
c) one can defend the rights of others to hold an opposing theory; thus I support your right to spout Nazi-apology though I don't agree with you

No.
Nehru was a snake who used Ghandi's prestige to obtain power which he and his family have used to exploit India to this day.

He still followed Gandhi. Bose's way was not the way he chose.

Jinnah also didn't follow Bose! ;)
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 23, 2013, 03:29:46 AM
It happens that my grand-father and names-sake was in the 2nd AIF (in WWII). Anyone who fought against him and Australia I would not take too kindly too.

"The Australian Army.  We'll fight anyone, anywhere, anytime. 
Never missed a war yet, and we're sure not going to miss the next one - even if we have to start it ourselves.
"  ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqDqYoxa3AU


Our most sacred and hallowed day is coming up on Thursday; ANZAC Day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anzac_day

Incidentally the date commemorates a campaign that was, in the end, a failure.

If you're at all interested you might like to take a look at some interesting Australian battles;

WWI - The Battle of Hamel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_hamel

WWI - Battle of Beersheba
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Beersheba_(1917)

WWII - The Battle of Tobruk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Tobruk

Vietnam War - The Battle of Long Tan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_long_tan

Small but important contributions
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 23, 2013, 09:02:09 AM
devout Frankists
Did you invent that word yourself?

I perceive that the term has an ancient history and consider it far more accurate than the phrase Roman Catholic to describe the Church of the Franks.
I picked it up from the Greek Orthodox priest Fr. John Romanides in his excellent book:

'Franks, Romans, Feudalism, and Doctrine'
http://www.romanity.org/htm/rom.03.en.franks_romans_feudalism_and_doctrine.01.htm

Ah yes, I know about Fr. Romanides and his curious historical theories. The term Frankist Church isn't very accurate though. Most modern-day "Franks" aren't in communion with the Pope.

The term "Frank(ish)" exists in old Romanian church literature with that meaning as well - there's a text saying that there were two monasteries on Mount Tabor: an Orthodox (pravoslav) one built by Romanian monks and one of the "Franks" (frânci). But it's an anachronism indeed. 

We could also have Frankian ;)
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 23, 2013, 09:21:25 AM
I should point out, and it might be an area for further discussion elsewhere that although Australia's most important national day is ANZAC Day we aren't as militaristic as some nations.

ANZAC Day commemorates a defeat.

The most known military figure in Australia is John Simpson, known for "Simpson and his Donkey"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Simpson_Kirkpatrick

He was a person who collected the wounded - not a combatant.

Also it's interesting that every US President after FDR except for two have had some involvement in the military.
Truman - army (WWI)
Eisenhower - army (WWII)
Kennedy - navy (WWII)
Johnson - navy (WWII)
Nixon - navy (WWII)
Ford - navy (WWII)
Carter - navy (WWII)
Reagan - army (WWII)
G H Bush - navy (WWII)
Clinton - nil
GW Bush - Texas Air National Guard
Obama - nil

over the same time period (and even up to today) Australia only had two Prime Ministers who had been in the military.
Ben Chifley - nil
Sir Robert Menzies - nil
Harold Holt - nil
John McEwen - nil
John Gorton (RAAF - (Royal Australian Air Force))
William McMahon - nil
Gough Whitlam (RAAF - (Royal Australian Air Force))
Malcolm Fraser - nil
Bob Hawke - nil
Paul Keating - nil
John Howard - nil
Kevin Rudd - nil
Julia Gillard - nil
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: podkarpatska on April 23, 2013, 10:31:37 AM
interesting vid by one of your orthodox brothers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=N-N8T8TPOv8#!

I'm sure that he and your priest, Fr.  Josef Tizo, would have a lot in common. Perhaps Archbishop Stepinac could join the conversation.

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 23, 2013, 06:11:38 PM
This thread has inspired me to buy a book on debunking Holocaust denials

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 23, 2013, 08:49:35 PM
This thread has inspired me to buy a book on debunking Holocaust denials

Here's my recommendation:

The Vatican's Holocaust
By Avro Manhattan
http://www.reformation.org/holocaus.html
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 23, 2013, 09:02:01 PM
It happens that my grand-father and names-sake was in the 2nd AIF (in WWII). Anyone who fought against him and Australia I would not take too kindly too.

"The Australian Army.  We'll fight anyone, anywhere, anytime.  
Never missed a war yet, and we're sure not going to miss the next one - even if we have to start it ourselves.
"  ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqDqYoxa3AU

Our most sacred and hallowed day is coming up on Thursday; ANZAC Day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anzac_day

This has inspired me to buy a book about the Australian defeat by the Ottoman Empire in World War I written from the Turkish point of view.  


Gallipoli
By Colonel Edward J. Erickson, USA (ret.)
http://www.amazon.com/GALLIPOLI-CAMPAIGN-Edward-J-Erickson/dp/1844159671

"The Ottoman Army won a historic victory over the Allied forces at Gallipoli in 1915. This was one of the most decisive and clear-cut campaigns of the Great War. Yet the performance of the Ottomans, the victors, has often received less attention than that of the Allied army they defeated. Edward Erickson, in this perceptive new study, concentrates on the Ottoman side of the campaign. He looks in detail at the Ottoman Army - at its structure, tactics and deployment - and at the conduct of the commanders who served it so well. His pioneering work complements the extensive literature on other aspects of the Gallipoli battle, in particular those accounts that have focused on the experience of the British, Australians and New Zealanders. This highly original reassessment of the campaign will be essential reading for students of the Great War, especially the conflict in the Middle East."

The British directed this failed campaign against Constantinople from Limnos island which I have seen from Mount Athos.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 23, 2013, 11:11:45 PM
This thread has inspired me to buy a book on debunking Holocaust denials

Here's my recommendation:

The Vatican's Holocaust
By Avro Manhattan
http://www.reformation.org/holocaus.html

I stumbled across this site as far back as c.1996 and it was full of anti-Catholic hate.

(I was looking for information on the Reformation as History was part of my Bachelor of Arts)

Your site's claim that he is THE foremost authority on Roman Catholicism is itself quite a claim.

However I do accept in general that the Catholic Church aided Nazis in escaping justice along what are termed "Ratlines"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratlines_(World_War_II)
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 23, 2013, 11:31:42 PM
The British directed this failed campaign against Constantinople from Limnos island which I have seen from Mount Athos.

It's very easy to know why the Turks won. On their home soil, not far from the capital, holding the high ground against misplaced troops lead by pedestrian British leadership! Hamilton was rubbish.

Australian leadership was shown in the evacuation where we were able to withdraw right under the noses of the Turks without any casualties. The Turks could observe all points of the ANZAC lines but were deceived over several nights by good planning and execution.

Present on the Turkish side was Mustafa Kemal (later the founder of Modern Turkey as Kemal Attaturk).

He said this:
·   Heroes who shed their blood and lost their lives! You are now lying in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and Mehmets to us where they lie side by side here in this country of ours. You, the mothers, who sent their sons from far away countries wipe away your tears; your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace. After having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well.
o   A tribute to those ANZACs who died in Gallipoli (1934).
The Turks re-named the area in their honour and it is now officially called ANZAC Cove.

Incidentally at about the same time the British tried another invasion of the Ottoman Empire – via what’s now Iraq. They lost here too – at the siege of Kut.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Kut

You might want to investigate how the Turks mistreated their PoWs.

Australia beat Turkey in 1917 at Beersheba.


We had a local terrorist ‘battle’ two when two Australian-based Moslem camel-drivers decided to rise up in favour of their Moslem brothers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Broken_Hill


Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 23, 2013, 11:38:38 PM
Here's my recommendation:

The Vatican's Holocaust
By Avro Manhattan
http://www.reformation.org/holocaus.html

I stumbled across this site as far back as c.1996 and it was full of anti-Catholic hate.
I recommended the book - not the website.

This book is about the murder of Serbs and Jews during World War II by the Croatian Ustasi.  Another is:

'The Yugoslav Aushcwiz and the Vatican'
By Vladimir Dedijer
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0879757523/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 23, 2013, 11:52:44 PM
This thread has inspired me to buy a book on debunking Holocaust denials

Michael Phayer has two books related to this subject.  
After going over the contents of his first book 'The Catholic Church and the Holocaust', I assessed it as jewish anti-Christian propaganda
- one dimensional, narrow minded and useless.  It has a heavy handed mean spirited bias about it.

'Hitler's Pope' by British author John Cornwell is much more edifying to read, more objective, but just as decisive and outspoken.  
Much better book with a similar conclusion about Pius XII.
http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Pope-Secret-History-Pius/dp/014311400X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1366776264&sr=1-1&keywords=hitler%27s+pope


Michael Phayer's second book was a huge improvement - an interesting perspective of post-war Vatican history.
'Pius XII, The Holocaust, and the Cold War'
By Michael Phayer
http://www.amazon.com/Pius-XII-Holocaust-Cold-War/dp/0253349303/ref=la_B001ITPJJ4_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1366775378&sr=1-2
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 24, 2013, 12:25:07 AM
You might want to investigate how the Turks mistreated their PoWs.
I have indeed, and I discovered that most British propaganda against the Turks was created and issued through two distinct orifices:
1) the protestant missionary establishment in the middle east
2) the British foreign office
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 24, 2013, 01:10:50 AM
You might want to investigate how the Turks mistreated their PoWs.
I have indeed, and I discovered that most British propaganda against the Turks was created and issued through two distinct orifices:
1) the protestant missionary establishment in the middle east
2) the British foreign office

However the British were not the only PoWs of the Turks.

There were Australian, New Zealander and, Russian PoWs, to name a few.

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 24, 2013, 01:18:39 AM
This thread has inspired me to buy a book on debunking Holocaust denials

Michael Phayer has two books related to this subject. 


I will be buying Hitler’s Pope for my mum’s upcoming birthday.

It is suggested that G W Bush’s grand-dad worked with the Nazis. It’s also suggested Coca Cola and IBM did too. IBM’s card tabulating machines helped the Nazis process their racial work.

The Scarlet and the Black is a movie with Gregory Peck based on the exploits of a Monsignor O’Flaherty’s work in helping allied PoWs escape through the Vatican.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_O%27Flaherty

Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 24, 2013, 11:10:41 AM
It is suggested that G W Bush’s grand-dad worked with the Nazis. It’s also suggested Coca Cola and IBM did too.

'The Nazi Hydra in America'
By Glen Yeadon
http://www.amazon.com/Nazi-Hydra-America-Suppressed-ebook/dp/B006WSJLEU/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1366815704&sr=1-2&keywords=nazi+hydra#_
Nazi Hydra online pdf
http://vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres8/Hydra.pdf
Glen Yeadon Interview
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtnL3x2NGzM

'Blowback'
By Christopher Simpson
http://israelvisit.co.il/PerkinsBooks/blowback.htm
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fascism/Blowback_CSimpson.html

Blowback is my favorite book about Operations Paperclip and Bloodstone
(i.e. transfer of Nazis to positions of power and influence in post-war America).

Nazi Hydra is a more encyclopaedic book that especially concerns Ford, Rockefeller, DuPont, and Bush.
This whole book is guided by some excellent books from the 1940's by muckraker reporter George Seldes who is in my opinion the best american news reporter of the twentieth century. 
The thesis of Yeadon's book is that World War II was won against Nazis on the battlefield and then defeated by Nazis on the homefront.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Seldes
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 24, 2013, 02:24:48 PM
The Scarlet and the Black is a movie with Gregory Peck based on the exploits of a Monsignor O’Flaherty’s work in helping allied PoWs escape through the Vatican.

I think I'll take you up on that one.  I'll watch it this weekend along with 'For Whom the Bell Tolls'.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 24, 2013, 02:38:53 PM
The Scarlet and the Black is a movie with Gregory Peck based on the exploits of a Monsignor O’Flaherty’s work in helping allied PoWs escape through the Vatican.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_O%27Flaherty

Gregory Peck as a priest recalls Robert Mitchum's non-conformist role in the 'Wrath of God'.
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: montalban on April 25, 2013, 05:45:11 AM
Germany was lucky it wasn't split up into hundreds of tiny nations
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: sedevacantist on April 26, 2013, 08:16:11 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3c0PnRBZJk&bpctr=1367022601
interesting vid
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: sedevacantist on April 27, 2013, 09:53:27 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRrP7AevKi4
another must see vid
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: Dionysii on April 29, 2013, 10:50:51 PM
The Flat
An Israeli Jewish family discovers its Nazi zionist past.
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/04/22/flat-a22.html
Title: Re: Hitler's hate towards the Jews
Post by: jah777 on April 29, 2013, 11:30:42 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRrP7AevKi4
another must see vid

The circumstances surrounding the Jew David Cole are quite bizarre.  He traveled to Auschwitz and produced this video from his interview with Dr. Franciszek Piper of the Auschwitz museum:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LO_xSQOCzw

He became a quite prominent and vocal critic of many aspects of the Holocaust official story.  But then, all of a sudden, he disappeared.  The Jewish Defense League posted a message offering a reward to anyone who could provide information on David Cole's location, referring to him as a "monstrous traitor" to the Jewish people, saying that "we must get rid of this monster" and other quite threatening language.  Cole feared for his life and for the safety of his family who he was caring for, and soon issued a very general statement saying that he "recanted" all of his revisionist statements regarding the Holocaust, though without any detailed explanation of why he changed his mind or why his former views were mistaken. 

http://vho.org/aaargh/engl/DCrecant.html

http://unglaublichkeiten.com/unglaublichkeiten/htmlphp2/u2_1603JDL.html

Interestingly, before his disappearance and departure from the revisionist movement, he did record some videos where he makes some interesting statements in hindsight.  For instance, his statement that it is "suicidal" for a Jew to oppose the official holocaust story:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGzFMKITEnE

Or, his comments on the pressure tactics used to keep so-called "revisionists" from recording and publishing interviews with actual Holocaust survivors:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HtOK0IANoI