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Moderated Forums => Faith Issues => Topic started by: dcommini on February 04, 2013, 07:38:59 PM

Title: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: dcommini on February 04, 2013, 07:38:59 PM
My mother recently returned from Israel where she saw such sites as the Church of the Nativity, Church of The Holy Sepulchre, and some other interesting things. She brought my wife back a nice cashmere head scarf, and she brought me back and icon of St. George and a Jewish prayer shawl (legitimately kosher) .

I have no clue what to do with the prayer shawl. I'm not going to use it and I don't really want to re-gift it as I don't know many Jewish people, and I don't want to just stick it in the closet... So what do I do?

FYI, my mother is not Orthodox, but I did ask her to see some Orthodox sites for me.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: biro on February 04, 2013, 07:41:47 PM
See if there's a synagogue in the phone book. Offer to donate it to them.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: JamesRottnek on February 04, 2013, 07:48:23 PM
See if there's a synagogue in the phone book. Offer to donate it to them.

Or put it in a case and hang it on your wall.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: dcommini on February 04, 2013, 07:53:05 PM
See if there's a synagogue in the phone book. Offer to donate it to them.

I might do this. I would feel a little bad knowing that my mother spent money on a gift for me and I just give it away, but at the same time the prayer shawl would be going somewhere it would be used...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: JamesR on February 04, 2013, 08:12:26 PM
Give it to that Tallitot guy here  ;D
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: dcommini on February 04, 2013, 08:13:53 PM
Give it to that Tallitot guy here  ;D

That was a thought... give a tallit to Tallitot  :D
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Tallitot on February 04, 2013, 08:22:59 PM
Give it to that Tallitot guy here  ;D

That was a thought... give a tallit to Tallitot  :D
I have icons I can trade for the tallit. btw my screen name is just plural for tallit.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: dcommini on February 04, 2013, 08:26:46 PM
Give it to that Tallitot guy here  ;D

That was a thought... give a tallit to Tallitot  :D
I have icons I can trade for the tallit. btw my screen name is just plural for tallit.

I know, kind of the joke I was going for...

PM me with the particulars if you would be willing to take  the tallit.  I have no clue as to how many icons are worth one tallit or vice versa...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Nephi on February 04, 2013, 08:45:53 PM
I have no clue as to how many icons are worth one tallit or vice versa...
I'd say at least one first edition icon of St. George. ;)
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Orthodox11 on February 04, 2013, 08:55:46 PM
You could hang it over an icon. Tallitot look quite similar to the icon scarves used by Ukrainians.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: dcommini on February 04, 2013, 09:12:40 PM
I have no clue as to how many icons are worth one tallit or vice versa...
I'd say at least one first edition icon of St. George. ;)

  ;D

You could hang it over an icon. Tallitot look quite similar to the icon scarves used by Ukrainians.

Another possibility...
I was wondering if I could use it as a cloth for the shelf in my icon corner, or if there were some other purpose I could find for it.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Maria on February 04, 2013, 10:15:26 PM
See if there's a synagogue in the phone book. Offer to donate it to them.

I might do this. I would feel a little bad knowing that my mother spent money on a gift for me and I just give it away, but at the same time the prayer shawl would be going somewhere it would be used...

You could always drape the prayer shawl over the top and sides of the icon that she gave you.
That will help to keep the dust off the icon.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: dcommini on February 04, 2013, 10:23:38 PM
See if there's a synagogue in the phone book. Offer to donate it to them.

I might do this. I would feel a little bad knowing that my mother spent money on a gift for me and I just give it away, but at the same time the prayer shawl would be going somewhere it would be used...

You could always drape the prayer shawl over the top and sides of the icon that she gave you.
That will help to keep the dust off the icon.

That would be a bit over kill, the icon is quite small...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: rakovsky on February 04, 2013, 11:54:09 PM
Quote
You could always drape the prayer shawl over the top and sides of the icon that she gave you.
That will help to keep the dust off the icon.
(A) It could be used to drape a bigger ikon, or it could be used as a "tablecloth" to put similar items on. If it is too big for something, you can fold it.

(B) Don't Ethiopian Christian women wear veils that are like tallit? I think I have seen them. In that case you could mail it to an Ethiopian church.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Nephi on February 05, 2013, 01:35:19 AM
(B) Don't Ethiopian Christian women wear veils that are like tallit? I think I have seen them. In that case you could mail it to an Ethiopian church.
The Ethiopian women at my parish wear shawls, but they're usually solid while unlike the Google images that come up for "tallit."
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: J Michael on February 05, 2013, 12:05:33 PM
I'd suggest either trading it with Tallitot or donating it to a synagogue--either way, someone will get some proper, legitimate, and respectful use out of it.  Doing so is in no way disrespectful to your mother.  If you're concerned about that, perhaps tell her what you plan to do with it and seek her blessing to do so.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Cantor Krishnich on February 05, 2013, 02:12:04 PM
Quote
You could always drape the prayer shawl over the top and sides of the icon that she gave you.
That will help to keep the dust off the icon.

(B) Don't Ethiopian Christian women wear veils that are like tallit? I think I have seen them. In that case you could mail it to an Ethiopian church.

Ethiopian Christian men and women wear prayer veils which are different from Jewish talliot. You probably saw an Ethiopian Jew wearing talliot.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Deep Roots on February 05, 2013, 02:16:44 PM
Good night!  It was a gift from your mother.  Put it somewhere nice in the house.

It's not like it has demons spilling out of it. 
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: dcommini on February 05, 2013, 02:23:36 PM
Good night!  It was a gift from your mother.  Put it somewhere nice in the house.

It's not like it has demons spilling out of it. 

Of course not, its kosher   :P

The question then is where to put it in the house. I believe enough people have weighed in that I can comfortably make a decision.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: primuspilus on February 05, 2013, 02:27:20 PM
Just use it. Why go through all that nonsense?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Deep Roots on February 05, 2013, 02:33:16 PM
Good night!  It was a gift from your mother.  Put it somewhere nice in the house.

It's not like it has demons spilling out of it. 

Of course not, its kosher   :P

The question then is where to put it in the house. I believe enough people have weighed in that I can comfortably make a decision.
;)
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 18, 2013, 10:57:57 AM
My mother recently returned from Israel where she saw such sites as the Church of the Nativity, Church of The Holy Sepulchre, and some other interesting things. She brought my wife back a nice cashmere head scarf, and she brought me back and icon of St. George and a Jewish prayer shawl (legitimately kosher) .

I have no clue what to do with the prayer shawl. I'm not going to use it and I don't really want to re-gift it as I don't know many Jewish people, and I don't want to just stick it in the closet... So what do I do?

FYI, my mother is not Orthodox, but I did ask her to see some Orthodox sites for me.

Wear it while you pray.  Jesus and all the apostles did! :-)
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Romaios on April 18, 2013, 11:22:59 AM
Wear it while you pray.  Jesus and all the apostles did! :-)

Yea, Rabbeinu Shaul - a Pharisee - would carefully pack his talit, tzitzit and tfilin on all his trips. In Philippi, when he was thrown in jail with Silas, their chains miraculously fell off so they could put on tfilin. When he was in escorted to Rome in chains, he'd ask the Roman guards to help him put them on for prayer. And after the shipwreck on Malta, an angel recovered them for him from the bottom of the sea! 

(He also wore payot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payot), a shtreimel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shtreimel), and owned about a dozen kippas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kippa) - he'd use blue ones for the Feasts of Our Lady, a white one for Pesach, a red one for Shavuot/Pentecost, and so on.)

Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: dcommini on April 18, 2013, 11:27:36 AM
My mother recently returned from Israel where she saw such sites as the Church of the Nativity, Church of The Holy Sepulchre, and some other interesting things. She brought my wife back a nice cashmere head scarf, and she brought me back and icon of St. George and a Jewish prayer shawl (legitimately kosher) .

I have no clue what to do with the prayer shawl. I'm not going to use it and I don't really want to re-gift it as I don't know many Jewish people, and I don't want to just stick it in the closet... So what do I do?

FYI, my mother is not Orthodox, but I did ask her to see some Orthodox sites for me.

Wear it while you pray.  Jesus and all the apostles did! :-)

Jesus and the Apostles were Jewish. I am not. But I did give it some thought.

A while back when I was still trying to figure a lot of things out I toyed with the idea of Judaism. I didn't want to give up believing in Jesus so I guess I was kind of leaning Messianic (with out realizing that they were there own separate entity/denomination, I just thought they were Jews who accepted Christ). I was really looking for the more traditional Church and Judaism really appealed to me.

When I was in training for the Army I often went to the Jewish services with one of my buddies (who was Jewish) more than I went to Christian services. I really liked the Shabatt services and I gave much thought to going that route. I even picked up a little black yarmulke when I went to those services and a Jewish prayer book (I have since misplaced the yarmulke).

Long story short, I ended up Orthodox Christian instead of Orthodox Jew...

Wear it while you pray.  Jesus and all the apostles did! :-)

Yea, Rabbeinu Shaul - a Pharisee - would carefully pack his talit, tzitzit and tfilin on all his trips. In Philippi, when he was thrown in jail with Silas, their chains miraculously fell off so they could put on tfilin. When he was in escorted to Rome in chains, he'd ask the Roman guards to help him put them on for prayer. And after the shipwreck on Malta, an angel recovered them for him from the bottom of the sea! 

(He also wore payot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payot), a shtreimel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shtreimel), and owned about a dozen kippas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kippa) - he'd use blue ones for the Feasts of Our Lady, a white one for Pesach, a red one for Shavuot/Pentecost, and so on.)



 :D lol, very nice!
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: LBK on April 18, 2013, 11:28:35 AM
Quote
a red one for Shavuot/Pentecost

A red one? Oy vey! It should be green, already!  :laugh:
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Romaios on April 18, 2013, 11:47:58 AM
Quote
a red one for Shavuot/Pentecost

A red one? Oy vey! It should be green, already!  :laugh:

Right! He can't have been a Papist.  :D
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 18, 2013, 06:56:20 PM
My mother recently returned from Israel where she saw such sites as the Church of the Nativity, Church of The Holy Sepulchre, and some other interesting things. She brought my wife back a nice cashmere head scarf, and she brought me back and icon of St. George and a Jewish prayer shawl (legitimately kosher) .

I have no clue what to do with the prayer shawl. I'm not going to use it and I don't really want to re-gift it as I don't know many Jewish people, and I don't want to just stick it in the closet... So what do I do?

FYI, my mother is not Orthodox, but I did ask her to see some Orthodox sites for me.

Wear it while you pray.  Jesus and all the apostles did! :-)

Jesus and the Apostles were Jewish. I am not. But I did give it some thought.

A while back when I was still trying to figure a lot of things out I toyed with the idea of Judaism. I didn't want to give up believing in Jesus so I guess I was kind of leaning Messianic (with out realizing that they were there own separate entity/denomination, I just thought they were Jews who accepted Christ). I was really looking for the more traditional Church and Judaism really appealed to me.

When I was in training for the Army I often went to the Jewish services with one of my buddies (who was Jewish) more than I went to Christian services. I really liked the Shabatt services and I gave much thought to going that route. I even picked up a little black yarmulke when I went to those services and a Jewish prayer book (I have since misplaced the yarmulke).

Long story short, I ended up Orthodox Christian instead of Orthodox Jew...

Wear it while you pray.  Jesus and all the apostles did! :-)

Yea, Rabbeinu Shaul - a Pharisee - would carefully pack his talit, tzitzit and tfilin on all his trips. In Philippi, when he was thrown in jail with Silas, their chains miraculously fell off so they could put on tfilin. When he was in escorted to Rome in chains, he'd ask the Roman guards to help him put them on for prayer. And after the shipwreck on Malta, an angel recovered them for him from the bottom of the sea! 

(He also wore payot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payot), a shtreimel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shtreimel), and owned about a dozen kippas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kippa) - he'd use blue ones for the Feasts of Our Lady, a white one for Pesach, a red one for Shavuot/Pentecost, and so on.)



 :D lol, very nice!

You can do both. I celebrate Passover and use a Talit and I am fully Orthodox! You will be surprised how much more you will understand about Orthodoxy through Jewish eyes! 
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: LBK on April 18, 2013, 07:05:40 PM

You can do both. I celebrate Passover and use a Talit and I am fully Orthodox! You will be surprised how much more you will understand about Orthodoxy through Jewish eyes! 

The only Passover that Orthodox Christians should celebrate is of the Resurrection of the Lord. The shadow of the Law has passed away ...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 18, 2013, 07:07:29 PM
Quote
a red one for Shavuot/Pentecost

A red one? Oy vey! It should be green, already!  :laugh:

This is actually a good example. Orthodox churches usually decorate in green on Pentecost. This is actually a Jewish tradition on Shavuot.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 18, 2013, 07:09:48 PM

You can do both. I celebrate Passover and use a Talit and I am fully Orthodox! You will be surprised how much more you will understand about Orthodoxy through Jewish eyes!  

The only Passover that Orthodox Christians should celebrate is of the Resurrection of the Lord. The shadow of the Law has passed away ...

Yeshua, all the Apostles and ALL of the Eastern churches celebrated Passover. It is FULLY Orthodox. In fact Pascha means Passover...not "easter"...

See how much you do not understand because you have closed eyes and ears! Passover is when Yeshua gave us the command to do this in remembrance of Him.  The Feast of First fruits is when Yeshua rose from the dead 3 days later when our High Priest Yeshua waved the wave sheaf offering for His Father to accept!  
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: mike on April 18, 2013, 07:17:09 PM
You can join yeshuaisiam's religion.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: pmpn8rGPT on April 18, 2013, 07:17:17 PM

You can do both. I celebrate Passover and use a Talit and I am fully Orthodox! You will be surprised how much more you will understand about Orthodoxy through Jewish eyes!  

The only Passover that Orthodox Christians should celebrate is of the Resurrection of the Lord. The shadow of the Law has passed away ...

Yeshua, all the Apostles and ALL of the Eastern churches celebrated Passover. It is FULLY Orthodox. In fact Pascha means Passover...not "easter"...

See how much you do not understand because you have closed eyes and ears! Passover is when Yeshua gave us the command to do this in remembrance of Him.  The Feast of First fruits is when Yeshua rose from the dead 3 days later when our High Priest Yeshua waved the wave sheaf offering for His Father to accept!  
Every Orthodox Christian (especially LBK, most likely) knows what Pascha means
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: biro on April 18, 2013, 07:21:21 PM

You can do both. I celebrate Passover and use a Talit and I am fully Orthodox! You will be surprised how much more you will understand about Orthodoxy through Jewish eyes!  

The only Passover that Orthodox Christians should celebrate is of the Resurrection of the Lord. The shadow of the Law has passed away ...

Yeshua, all the Apostles and ALL of the Eastern churches celebrated Passover. It is FULLY Orthodox. In fact Pascha means Passover...not "easter"...

See how much you do not understand because you have closed eyes and ears! Passover is when Yeshua gave us the command to do this in remembrance of Him.  The Feast of First fruits is when Yeshua rose from the dead 3 days later when our High Priest Yeshua waved the wave sheaf offering for His Father to accept!  

 :o

Not recognizing the separation of Christianity from Judaism is to not recognize the difference between being a Christian and being a Jew.

You are not an Orthodox Jew or an Orthodox Christian. There is no six of one and half dozen of the other.

Sorry. I really doubt St. Paul went about in a European Polish or Hungarian Hasidic hat.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 18, 2013, 07:26:12 PM

You can do both. I celebrate Passover and use a Talit and I am fully Orthodox! You will be surprised how much more you will understand about Orthodoxy through Jewish eyes!  

The only Passover that Orthodox Christians should celebrate is of the Resurrection of the Lord. The shadow of the Law has passed away ...

Yeshua, all the Apostles and ALL of the Eastern churches celebrated Passover. It is FULLY Orthodox. In fact Pascha means Passover...not "easter"...

See how much you do not understand because you have closed eyes and ears! Passover is when Yeshua gave us the command to do this in remembrance of Him.  The Feast of First fruits is when Yeshua rose from the dead 3 days later when our High Priest Yeshua waved the wave sheaf offering for His Father to accept!  

 :o

Not recognizing the separation of Christianity from Judaism is to not recognize the difference between being a Christian and being a Jew.

You are not an Orthodox Jew or an Orthodox Christian. There is no six of one and half dozen of the other.

Sorry. I really doubt St. Paul went about in a European Polish or Hungarian Hasidic hat.

I AM an Orthodox Christian and you have NO authority to claim otherwise! Do you consider Yeshua, all His Apostles as well as all of the early Eastern Churches Orthodox? If yes, then I am too. If no, then it is YOU that are not Orthodox!
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Romaios on April 18, 2013, 07:30:34 PM
Yeshua, all the Apostles and ALL of the Eastern churches celebrated Passover. It is FULLY Orthodox. In fact Pascha means Passover...not "easter"...

See how much you do not understand because you have closed eyes and ears! Passover is when Yeshua gave us the command to do this in remembrance of Him.  The Feast of First fruits is when Yeshua rose from the dead 3 days later when our High Priest Yeshua waved the wave sheaf offering for His Father to accept!  

Rabbeinu Shaul, zikhrono livrakha, haya omer:

Quote from: Kehillah in Colossae 2:16
Therefore, let no one judge you in eating and in drinking or in respect to a yom tov (yontev) or a rosh chodesh or Shabbos.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 18, 2013, 07:38:52 PM
Rabbeinu Shaul, zikhrono livrakha, haya omer:

Quote from: Kehillah in Colossae 2:16
Therefore, let no one judge you in eating and in drinking or in respect to a yom tov (yontev) or a rosh chodesh or Shabbos.
[/quote]

then why do they judge me here?????
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: NicholasMyra on April 18, 2013, 07:42:59 PM
Yeshua Ha Derekh, in what sense are you a Jew? Are you from a practicing Jewish family? Did you convert through years of study and the rite of circumcision?

Trying to get a little background here.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Romaios on April 18, 2013, 07:46:17 PM
then why do they judge me here?????

Al tishpetu lema'an lo tishafetu - "Judge not, lest ye be judged." (Habesora al-pi Mattay 7:1)
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 18, 2013, 07:47:07 PM
Yeshua Ha Derekh, in what sense are you a Jew? Are you from a practicing Jewish family? Did you convert through years of study and the rite of circumcision?

Trying to get a little background here.

What does that matter? Are my words not enough for you to judge on? I am Orthodox.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: biro on April 18, 2013, 07:47:20 PM

You can do both. I celebrate Passover and use a Talit and I am fully Orthodox! You will be surprised how much more you will understand about Orthodoxy through Jewish eyes!  

The only Passover that Orthodox Christians should celebrate is of the Resurrection of the Lord. The shadow of the Law has passed away ...

Yeshua, all the Apostles and ALL of the Eastern churches celebrated Passover. It is FULLY Orthodox. In fact Pascha means Passover...not "easter"...

See how much you do not understand because you have closed eyes and ears! Passover is when Yeshua gave us the command to do this in remembrance of Him.  The Feast of First fruits is when Yeshua rose from the dead 3 days later when our High Priest Yeshua waved the wave sheaf offering for His Father to accept!  

 :o

Not recognizing the separation of Christianity from Judaism is to not recognize the difference between being a Christian and being a Jew.

You are not an Orthodox Jew or an Orthodox Christian. There is no six of one and half dozen of the other.

Sorry. I really doubt St. Paul went about in a European Polish or Hungarian Hasidic hat.

I AM an Orthodox Christian and you have NO authority to claim otherwise! Do you consider Yeshua, all His Apostles as well as all of the early Eastern Churches Orthodox? If yes, then I am too. If no, then it is YOU that are not Orthodox!

Christianity is not Judaism. Judaism is not Christianity. If you were baptized Orthodox but you are now in a Christian "messianic Jewish" sect, that is all it is.

St. Paul did not wear a shtreimel. They are 1700s-era European hats. Little late, you see.

Go into any actual Orthodox Jewish synagogue and try this again. See what they say.

You don't even pass the laugh test.

Oh, by the way, are you Alfred Persson? He is the only one who used phrases such as "pre-100 A.D. Orthodox" when he was here. And he was making it up, too. There is no such thing. The Orthodox Church was not founded in 100 A.D. It was founded by Christ on Pentecost.

You can't make yourself Orthodox Christian just by saying so. The Orthodox Church is a recognized physical fact. It is not something you meld by sticking the word "orthodox," meaning traditional or formal, to the word "Christian," meaning "whatever you want."

No dice.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: NicholasMyra on April 18, 2013, 07:48:02 PM
Yeshua Ha Derekh, in what sense are you a Jew? Are you from a practicing Jewish family? Did you convert through years of study and the rite of circumcision?

Trying to get a little background here.

What does that matter? Are my words not enough for you to judge on? I am Orthodox.
I am not questioning your baptism into Orthodoxy. I'm asking, in what sense are you a Jew? Are you from a practicing Jewish family? Did you convert through years of study and the rite of circumcision?

Trying to get a little background here.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 18, 2013, 07:48:29 PM
then why do they judge me here?????

Al tishpetu lema'an lo tishafetu - "Judge not, lest ye be judged." (Habesora al-pi Mattay 7:1)

Judging and teaching are 2 different things...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 18, 2013, 07:50:27 PM
Yeshua Ha Derekh, in what sense are you a Jew? Are you from a practicing Jewish family? Did you convert through years of study and the rite of circumcision?

Trying to get a little background here.

What does that matter? Are my words not enough for you to judge on? I am Orthodox.
I am not questioning your baptism into Orthodoxy. I'm asking, in what sense are you a Jew? Are you from a practicing Jewish family? Did you convert through years of study and the rite of circumcision?

Trying to get a little background here.

I did not convert to anything...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: NicholasMyra on April 18, 2013, 07:51:02 PM
Yeshua Ha Derekh, in what sense are you a Jew? Are you from a practicing Jewish family? Did you convert through years of study and the rite of circumcision?

Trying to get a little background here.

What does that matter? Are my words not enough for you to judge on? I am Orthodox.
I am not questioning your baptism into Orthodoxy. I'm asking, in what sense are you a Jew? Are you from a practicing Jewish family? Did you convert through years of study and the rite of circumcision?

Trying to get a little background here.

I did not convert to anything...
So do you come from a Jewish family?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: SolEX01 on April 18, 2013, 07:53:30 PM
I AM an Orthodox Christian and you have NO authority to claim otherwise! Do you consider Yeshua, all His Apostles as well as all of the early Eastern Churches Orthodox? If yes, then I am too. If no, then it is YOU that are not Orthodox!

Why did you pick year 100?  What happened to you that caused you to take this stance?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 18, 2013, 07:59:06 PM
I AM an Orthodox Christian and you have NO authority to claim otherwise! Do you consider Yeshua, all His Apostles as well as all of the early Eastern Churches Orthodox? If yes, then I am too. If no, then it is YOU that are not Orthodox!

Why did you pick year 100?  What happened to you that caused you to take this stance?

that was the time the Apostolic age ended...St John died.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: SolEX01 on April 18, 2013, 08:02:49 PM
I AM an Orthodox Christian and you have NO authority to claim otherwise! Do you consider Yeshua, all His Apostles as well as all of the early Eastern Churches Orthodox? If yes, then I am too. If no, then it is YOU that are not Orthodox!

Why did you pick year 100?  What happened to you that caused you to take this stance?

that was the time the Apostolic age ended...St John died.

You don't believe the Apostles ordained other men to continue Christ's ministry.  You believe that the Orthodox Church died with St. John?

You believe that Christianity, in its current configuration, is a fraud?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Romaios on April 18, 2013, 08:16:33 PM
that was the time the Apostolic age ended...St John died.

But he had talmidim - good ones too: St. Polycarp and St. Irenaeus.

Quote from: Sirach 44:10-15
These also were godly men,
whose righteous deeds have not been forgotten;
11 their wealth will remain with their descendants,
and their inheritance with their children’s children.
12 Their descendants stand by the covenants;
their children also, for their sake.
13 Their offspring will continue forever,
and their glory will never be blotted out.
14 Their bodies are buried in peace,
but their name lives on generation after generation.
15 The assembly declares their wisdom,
and the congregation proclaims their praise.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 18, 2013, 09:07:11 PM
I AM an Orthodox Christian and you have NO authority to claim otherwise! Do you consider Yeshua, all His Apostles as well as all of the early Eastern Churches Orthodox? If yes, then I am too. If no, then it is YOU that are not Orthodox!

Why did you pick year 100?  What happened to you that caused you to take this stance?

that was the time the Apostolic age ended...St John died.

You don't believe the Apostles ordained other men to continue Christ's ministry.  You believe that the Orthodox Church died with St. John?

You believe that Christianity, in its current configuration, is a fraud?

Did I say that?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 18, 2013, 09:09:08 PM

But he had talmidim - good ones too: St. Polycarp and St. Irenaeus.

Yes he did! And I do as they did...yet I am criticized for it!
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: SolEX01 on April 18, 2013, 10:05:02 PM
I AM an Orthodox Christian and you have NO authority to claim otherwise! Do you consider Yeshua, all His Apostles as well as all of the early Eastern Churches Orthodox? If yes, then I am too. If no, then it is YOU that are not Orthodox!

Why did you pick year 100?  What happened to you that caused you to take this stance?

that was the time the Apostolic age ended...St John died.

You don't believe the Apostles ordained other men to continue Christ's ministry.  You believe that the Orthodox Church died with St. John?

You believe that Christianity, in its current configuration, is a fraud?

Did I say that?

Who are you in communion with?  Is there a Bishop somewhere that practices 1st century Christianity with a Jewish flavor?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Cognomen on April 18, 2013, 10:51:35 PM
I'll try to avoid getting another warning based on Mr. First Century Orthodox' account of the super-true Orthodox faith.

I know you've singled out St. Polycarp and St. Irenaeus for your fake religion, but have you not read St. Ignatius of Antioch?

You identify the end of legitimate Orthodoxy with the death of St. John.  But you neglect to speak of St. Ignatius, who explicitly wrote against your form of praxis.  And, he wrote well before St. Irenaeus, who had no direct connection to St. John.  Why do you never cite St. Ignatius' (and almost the entirety of the Church's) view on this? 

Seriously, if you're going to create some idol out of a time period, at least get your chronology straight. 

Why do I waste my time writing stuff like this?  You're not Jewish, and you aren't Orthodox (being baptized alone doesn't ensure this).  And no, I don't have the authority to determine this, but the Church--the actual existing one, not your imaginary one that died out, apparently in 100AD.  And you likely won't respond to any cogent arguments. 

Why are you here?  Are you here to convert us or show us the error of our new-fangled 21st Century, Jewish deficient ways?

So back to wasting my time......................................
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Marc1152 on April 18, 2013, 10:55:05 PM
My mother recently returned from Israel where she saw such sites as the Church of the Nativity, Church of The Holy Sepulchre, and some other interesting things. She brought my wife back a nice cashmere head scarf, and she brought me back and icon of St. George and a Jewish prayer shawl (legitimately kosher) .

I have no clue what to do with the prayer shawl. I'm not going to use it and I don't really want to re-gift it as I don't know many Jewish people, and I don't want to just stick it in the closet... So what do I do?

FYI, my mother is not Orthodox, but I did ask her to see some Orthodox sites for me.

It's only for men that have had a bar mitzvoh.. Donate it to a local Synagogue.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Cognomen on April 18, 2013, 10:56:37 PM
And instructing dcommini to "use" the Jewish prayer shawl?  Is this an Orthodox Christian site or not?   Perhaps a kind gift from your mother, but I think your gut reaction got it right.

And what Marc posted as well.  If posters don't care about what's acceptable, encouraged or part of Orthodox Christian practices, then at least be respectful of the Jewish ones.  

Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Gisasargavak on April 18, 2013, 11:58:19 PM
To the OP:

If you consult Chrysostom, there you will find your answer.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: leap of faith on April 19, 2013, 12:04:36 AM
To the OP:

If you consult Chrysostom, there you will find your answer.

Well, shoot.  Now I feel like I'm in a scene from "The Field of Dreams."  I'm a newbie.  Can you elaborate...because I'm goin' with Cognomen's answer thus far but I'm certainly interested in what St. John Chrysostom has to say about this.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: dcommini on April 19, 2013, 12:37:42 AM
To the OP:

If you consult Chrysostom, there you will find your answer.

Well, shoot.  Now I feel like I'm in a scene from "The Field of Dreams."  I'm a newbie.  Can you elaborate...because I'm goin' with Cognomen's answer thus far but I'm certainly interested in what St. John Chrysostom has to say about this.

Now I'm interested too!

Also, i never said I would use it. I was just wanting some insight as what to do with the tallit.

Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: NicholasMyra on April 19, 2013, 12:57:40 AM
I'm certainly interested in what St. John Chrysostom has to say about this.
Uh oh.

Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: LBK on April 19, 2013, 01:02:56 AM
I'm certainly interested in what St. John Chrysostom has to say about this.
Uh oh.



He of the Golden Mouth is renowned for not mincing his words. Somehow I doubt he'd be coy about this matter.  :laugh:
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Romaios on April 19, 2013, 04:07:30 AM
I'm certainly interested in what St. John Chrysostom has to say about this.
Uh oh.



He of the Golden Mouth is renowned for not mincing his words. Somehow I doubt he'd be coy about this matter.  :laugh:

Quote from: St. John Chrysostom, First Homily Against the Jews
Another very serious illness calls for any cure my words can bring, an illness which has become implanted in the body of the Church. We must first root this ailment out and then take thought for matters outside; we must first cure our own and then be concerned for others who are strangers.

What is this disease? The festivals of the pitiful and miserable Jews are soon to march upon us one after the other and in quick succession: the feast of Trumpets, the feast of Tabernacles, the fasts. There are many in our ranks who say they think as we do. Yet some of these are going to watch the festivals and others will join the Jews in keeping their feasts and observing their fasts. I wish to drive this perverse custom from the Church right now.

Source (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/chrysostom-jews6.asp)
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Quinault on April 19, 2013, 05:37:42 AM
Our priest is Jewish. He wears a kippah sometimes outside of services. He has a *reason* to wear it because he is Jewish and Orthodox. Someone once had the audacity to ask him; "Hey Father, what's with the sacred beanie." Needless to say, Fr. was not amused and corrected him.

Playing around with wearing the prayer shawl isn't a good idea. Not because it is evil or sinful. Because you have no connection to the practice whatsoever. You wouldn't just hand out prayer ropes and encourage people to just pray whatever with them. It is a sacred object. The prayer shawl is a sacred object as well. If you can't keep it as a token of the kindness of your mother in good conscience then by all means donate it somewhere to someone. A local hospital would be a good place to start, just speak to the hospital Chaplin.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Arachne on April 19, 2013, 05:49:38 AM
I AM an Orthodox Christian and you have NO authority to claim otherwise! Do you consider Yeshua, all His Apostles as well as all of the early Eastern Churches Orthodox? If yes, then I am too. If no, then it is YOU that are not Orthodox!

Why did you pick year 100?  What happened to you that caused you to take this stance?

that was the time the Apostolic age ended...St John died.

You don't believe the Apostles ordained other men to continue Christ's ministry.  You believe that the Orthodox Church died with St. John?

You believe that Christianity, in its current configuration, is a fraud?

So this is what Orthodox sedevacantism is like... Meh.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 19, 2013, 06:08:43 AM
Our priest is Jewish. He wears a kippah sometimes outside of services. He has a *reason* to wear it because he is Jewish and Orthodox. Someone once had the audacity to ask him; "Hey Father, what's with the sacred beanie." Needless to say, Fr. was not amused and corrected him.

Playing around with wearing the prayer shawl isn't a good idea. Not because it is evil or sinful. Because you have no connection to the practice whatsoever. You wouldn't just hand out prayer ropes and encourage people to just pray whatever with them. It is a sacred object. The prayer shawl is a sacred object as well. If you can't keep it as a token of the kindness of your mother in good conscience then by all means donate it somewhere to someone. A local hospital would be a good place to start, just speak to the hospital Chaplin.

Who is your priest? I would love to meet him! Are you saying that ONLY Jews can use a prayer shall? Are you saying that a prayer shawl is somehow wrong with Orthodox prayer? Yes, it IS a spiritual object and should be used as such. No one said to play around with it...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 19, 2013, 06:18:46 AM
I'll try to avoid getting another warning based on Mr. First Century Orthodox' account of the super-true Orthodox faith.

I know you've singled out St. Polycarp and St. Irenaeus for your fake religion, but have you not read St. Ignatius of Antioch?

You identify the end of legitimate Orthodoxy with the death of St. John.  But you neglect to speak of St. Ignatius, who explicitly wrote against your form of praxis.  And, he wrote well before St. Irenaeus, who had no direct connection to St. John.  Why do you never cite St. Ignatius' (and almost the entirety of the Church's) view on this? 

Seriously, if you're going to create some idol out of a time period, at least get your chronology straight. 

Why do I waste my time writing stuff like this?  You're not Jewish, and you aren't Orthodox (being baptized alone doesn't ensure this).  And no, I don't have the authority to determine this, but the Church--the actual existing one, not your imaginary one that died out, apparently in 100AD.  And you likely won't respond to any cogent arguments. 

Why are you here?  Are you here to convert us or show us the error of our new-fangled 21st Century, Jewish deficient ways?

So back to wasting my time......................................


Maybe you should read the 9th Commandment. It must be nice for you to put words into some else's mouth to falsely win an argument that never existed...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Gorazd on April 19, 2013, 06:20:45 AM
Judaising is a heresy. Let us remember that.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Romaios on April 19, 2013, 06:22:17 AM
Who is your priest? I would love to meet him! Are you saying that ONLY Jews can use a prayer shall? Are you saying that a prayer shawl is somehow wrong with Orthodox prayer? Yes, it IS a spiritual object and should be used as such. No one said to play around with it...

I own a talit. I'd never even think of putting it on for prayer. It would be clownish to do so.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 19, 2013, 06:29:36 AM
I'm certainly interested in what St. John Chrysostom has to say about this.
Uh oh.



He of the Golden Mouth is renowned for not mincing his words. Somehow I doubt he'd be coy about this matter.  :laugh:

Are you saying all Saints are infallible? Chrysostom was a man and he obviously had a dislike of the Jews. I agree with him in that celebrating the Festivals without them centering on Yeshua IS WRONG. I am sure that he did not mean that Christians can not celebrate them.  Polycarp and the entire Eastern Church did, so are you saying that Chrysostom disavows those that came before him and what he bases his beliefs on?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 19, 2013, 06:31:27 AM
Who is your priest? I would love to meet him! Are you saying that ONLY Jews can use a prayer shall? Are you saying that a prayer shawl is somehow wrong with Orthodox prayer? Yes, it IS a spiritual object and should be used as such. No one said to play around with it...

I own a talit. I'd never even think of putting it on for prayer. It would be clownish to do so.

If you think and feel it would be "clownish" then by all means do not wear it! Why do you have one then?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 19, 2013, 06:32:38 AM
Judaising is a heresy. Let us remember that.

Define Judaising? 
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Romaios on April 19, 2013, 06:47:12 AM
Chrysostom (...) obviously had a dislike of the Jews.

Wrong conclusion.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Romaios on April 19, 2013, 06:49:49 AM
Why do you have one then?

It's a souvenir from the Ghetto of Venice.

I find it equally clownish for an Orthodox to use Muslim prayer mats, incense sticks, Catholic rosaries or Buddhist prayer wheels. Nevertheless, some of these objects might have intrinsic esthetic qualities.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Cyrillic on April 19, 2013, 10:07:11 AM
Judaising is a heresy. Let us remember that.

Indeed. Too bad it has gotten so popular as of late.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Cyrillic on April 19, 2013, 10:08:57 AM
Judaising is a heresy. Let us remember that.

Define Judaising? 

Judaising (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Judaising)

Ju·da·ize  (jd-z)
v. Ju·da·ized, Ju·da·iz·ing, Ju·da·iz·es
v.tr.
To bring into conformity with Judaism.
v.intr.
To adopt Jewish customs and beliefs.
Juda·i·zation (--zshn) n.
Juda·izer n.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Thomas on April 19, 2013, 10:20:54 AM
You could hang it over an icon. Tallitot look quite similar to the icon scarves used by Ukrainians.

A great idea, especially if you have an old testament saint or an icon of Christ, it would be a powerful witness I think to a Jewish person coming to your home to see it used in that fashion. I have a friend who is a converted jew who does just that and it speaks volumes of his piety to  jewish friends who come into his Orthodox Christian home.

Thomas
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 19, 2013, 11:29:26 AM
Judaising is a heresy. Let us remember that.

Define Judaising? 

Judaising (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Judaising)

Ju·da·ize  (jd-z)
v. Ju·da·ized, Ju·da·iz·ing, Ju·da·iz·es
v.tr.
To bring into conformity with Judaism.
v.intr.
To adopt Jewish customs and beliefs.
Juda·i·zation (--zshn) n.
Juda·izer n.

Christianity celebrates Jewish feasts...Pascha=Passover (it is actually Yom HaBikkarim), Pentecost =Shavuot.  Orthodoxy is an offshoot of Judaism! Accept your roots! Christianity can not exist without Judaism. I mean really, what is your point? You must have a different definition of Judaizing...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 19, 2013, 11:32:33 AM
Why do you have one then?

It's a souvenir from the Ghetto of Venice.

I find it equally clownish for an Orthodox to use Muslim prayer mats, incense sticks, Catholic rosaries or Buddhist prayer wheels. Nevertheless, some of these objects might have intrinsic esthetic qualities.

I see your point but I look at it differently.   I guess I see it as better to use it for what it is for rather than a piece of art. 
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 19, 2013, 11:36:06 AM
You could hang it over an icon. Tallitot look quite similar to the icon scarves used by Ukrainians.

A great idea, especially if you have an old testament saint or an icon of Christ, it would be a powerful witness I think to a Jewish person coming to your home to see it used in that fashion. I have a friend who is a converted jew who does just that and it speaks volumes of his piety to  jewish friends who come into his Orthodox Christian home.

Thomas

How is that, Jews are not allowed images and here you wrap a tallit around it. I would think that would offend them. 
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Cyrillic on April 19, 2013, 11:42:09 AM
Pascha=Passover

Jews celebrate the risen Christ?


Pentecost =Shavuot.

Jews celebrate the outpouring of the Holy Spirit?

Orthodoxy is an offshoot of Judaism! Accept your roots! Christianity can not exist without Judaism.

"It is monstrous to talk of Jesus Christ and to practise Judaism. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity"

- St. Ignatius of Antioch, around 100 AD.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Arachne on April 19, 2013, 11:44:02 AM
Christianity celebrates Jewish feasts...Pascha=Passover (it is actually Yom HaBikkarim), Pentecost =Shavuot.  Orthodoxy is an offshoot of Judaism! Accept your roots! Christianity can not exist without Judaism. I mean really, what is your point? You must have a different definition of Judaizing...

Pascha (commemoration of the Resurrection of Christ) =/= Passover (commemoration of the liberation of Israel from Egypt).

And what roots are we talking about? I'm Greek - that's about as Gentile as it gets (even in Scripture). Are you saying that Gentiles can't be Christians? Please... the Apostles settled that long before 100CE.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 19, 2013, 12:30:00 PM
I'm certainly interested in what St. John Chrysostom has to say about this.
Uh oh.



He of the Golden Mouth is renowned for not mincing his words. Somehow I doubt he'd be coy about this matter.  :laugh:

During World War II, the Nazi Party in Germany used his work in an attempt to legitimize the Holocaust in the eyes of German and Austrian Christians. His works were frequently quoted and reprinted as a witness for the prosecution.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 19, 2013, 12:36:07 PM
Pascha (commemoration of the Resurrection of Christ) =/= Passover (commemoration of the liberation of Israel from Egypt).

And what roots are we talking about? I'm Greek - that's about as Gentile as it gets (even in Scripture). Are you saying that Gentiles can't be Christians? Please... the Apostles settled that long before 100CE.
[/quote]

Why cant people here read what I write? Where did I say Gentiles cant be Christians????? Also, you are incorrect. The Orthodox Church celebrates Pascha on the Sunday after Passover. This equates with the Jewish Feast of First Fruits or Yom HaBikkarim...Jesus resurrection happened on that day..He is the FIRSTFRUITS among the dead. Passover would equate with Holy Thursday. Your post just proves my point...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Arachne on April 19, 2013, 12:40:56 PM
Pascha (commemoration of the Resurrection of Christ) =/= Passover (commemoration of the liberation of Israel from Egypt).

And what roots are we talking about? I'm Greek - that's about as Gentile as it gets (even in Scripture). Are you saying that Gentiles can't be Christians? Please... the Apostles settled that long before 100CE.

Why cant people here read what I write? Where did I say Gentiles cant be Christians????? Also, you are incorrect. The Orthodox Church celebrates Pascha on the Sunday after Passover. This equates with the Jewish Feast of First Fruits or Yom HaBikkarim...Jesus resurrection happened on that day..He is the FIRSTFRUITS among the dead. Passover would equate with Holy Thursday. Your post just proves my point...
[/quote]



The Orthodox Church celebrates Pascha on the first Sunday after the full moon of the spring equinox. It can actually be postponed to the next Sunday if it coincides with either Passover or Ramadan. My mother, who grew up in one of very few Greek towns with significant Jewish presence, clearly remembers Passover falling occasionally on Lazarus Saturday.

I have no Jewish roots and I need none, thank you very much. That was settled when the Apostles determined that one need not become a Jew (by circumcision) before becoming a Christian (by baptism).
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 19, 2013, 12:43:23 PM
Pascha=Passover

Jews celebrate the risen Christ?


Pentecost =Shavuot.

Jews celebrate the outpouring of the Holy Spirit?


Shavuot is the Feast of Weeks which is EXACTLY what The Orthodox church does at Pascha...counts the SAME time period to Pentecost as the Jews do to Shavuot. that is what Pentecost means in Greek. Stop being ignorant.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 19, 2013, 12:48:30 PM
Pascha (commemoration of the Resurrection of Christ) =/= Passover (commemoration of the liberation of Israel from Egypt).

And what roots are we talking about? I'm Greek - that's about as Gentile as it gets (even in Scripture). Are you saying that Gentiles can't be Christians? Please... the Apostles settled that long before 100CE.

Why cant people here read what I write? Where did I say Gentiles cant be Christians????? Also, you are incorrect. The Orthodox Church celebrates Pascha on the Sunday after Passover. This equates with the Jewish Feast of First Fruits or Yom HaBikkarim...Jesus resurrection happened on that day..He is the FIRSTFRUITS among the dead. Passover would equate with Holy Thursday. Your post just proves my point...



The Orthodox Church celebrates Pascha on the first Sunday after the full moon of the spring equinox. It can actually be postponed to the next Sunday if it coincides with either Passover or Ramadan. My mother, who grew up in one of very few Greek towns with significant Jewish presence, clearly remembers Passover falling occasionally on Lazarus Saturday.

I have no Jewish roots and I need none, thank you very much. That was settled when the Apostles determined that one need not become a Jew (by circumcision) before becoming a Christian (by baptism).
[/quote]

I see you do not or can not read my posts without your pre-conceived notions.  The Apostles were all JEWS who believe Yeshua was the Messiah. If you don't consider that as Jewish roots then I guess you really don't know much about Christianity. I NEVER said anyone needs to become a Jew...thanks you very much.  Read what I write instead of making up false arguments. Also, what would Ramadam have anything to do with the timing of Pascha?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Cyrillic on April 19, 2013, 01:07:22 PM
Shavuot is the Feast of Weeks which is EXACTLY what The Orthodox church does at Pascha...

Obviously, you don't know what the Orthodox Church does at Pascha.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Arachne on April 19, 2013, 01:09:01 PM
I see you do not or can not read my posts without your pre-conceived notions.  The Apostles were all JEWS who believe Yeshua was the Messiah.

They remained ethnic Jews, of course, but were no longer considered proper religious Jews, judging by how often they were driven out of the synagogues where they preached. Are you familiar with the term αποσυνάγωγος?

If you don't consider that as Jewish roots then I guess you really don't know much about Christianity. I NEVER said anyone needs to become a Jew...thanks you very much.  Read what I write instead of making up false arguments.

You are blurring the lines between ethnicity and religion to support your point. And you actually sound like the fundie Neopagans who howl that zomgs, the evil Christians stole our holidays! They can't understand that different religious traditions can celebrate very different things at the same time of the year, or even with similar customs (as those are largely products of local culture), either.

Also, what would Ramadam have anything to do with the timing of Pascha?

To avoid confusion, scandal, and/or excuses for forceful intervention (as most traditionally Orthodox lands spent several centuries under Ottoman occupation), with a show of 'calculations are not exactly carved in stone' on the side.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Romaios on April 19, 2013, 01:21:00 PM
I see you do not or can not read my posts without your pre-conceived notions.  The Apostles were all JEWS who believe Yeshua was the Messiah. If you don't consider that as Jewish roots then I guess you really don't know much about Christianity.

The Synaxaria of the Feasts of Our Lord explain their Jewish roots in great detail - for both Pascha and Pentecost.

I don't quite get your dissatisfaction with what the Orthodox Church teaches and its liturgical practice vis-a-vis its Jewish roots. Besides condemning antisemitism, which is rightfully disavowed by most contemporary Christians, I personally don't see what else could or should be done. What would your ideal Church (pre-100 AD Jewish "roots" restored) look like?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 19, 2013, 01:29:10 PM
Shavuot is the Feast of Weeks which is EXACTLY what The Orthodox church does at Pascha...

Obviously, you don't know what the Orthodox Church does at Pascha.

I do. At Pascha the church begins the count to Pentecost. You have a problem with that? In Judaism, the count begins on that same day, Yom HaBikkarim, the Feast of First Fruits...the count is the same to Shavuot...the Feast of Weeks.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 19, 2013, 01:35:04 PM
I see you do not or can not read my posts without your pre-conceived notions.  The Apostles were all JEWS who believe Yeshua was the Messiah. If you don't consider that as Jewish roots then I guess you really don't know much about Christianity.

The Synaxaria of the Feasts of Our Lord explain their Jewish roots in great detail - for both Pascha and Pentecost.

I don't quite get your dissatisfaction with what the Orthodox Church teaches and its liturgical practice vis-a-vis its Jewish roots. Besides condemning antisemitism, which is rightfully disavowed by most contemporary Christians, I personally don't see what else could or should be done. What would your ideal Church (pre-100 AD Jewish "roots" restored) look like?

Then why do you all call me not Orthodox and a judaizer? You just agreed with me! My dissatisfaction is because most in the Church act like all of you have to me...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Romaios on April 19, 2013, 01:43:29 PM
Then why do you all call me not Orthodox and a judaizer? You just agreed with me! My dissatisfaction is because most in the Church act like all of you have to me...

What privileges do you expect in the Church? We don't even know if you are an ethnic Jew or not (you declined to answer that one). If you are, it should be irrelevant once you are baptized. According to St. Paul, there is no more Jew or Gentile in Christ. The dividing wall is broken down by the Messiah, who made the two peoples one, reconciling them in his Body. Therefore, there are no longer any identity markers and boundaries that set apart Jews in the Church: no separate days of observance, no bodily marks, no dietary prescriptions.

Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Cyrillic on April 19, 2013, 01:43:49 PM
Then why do you all call me not Orthodox and a judaizer?

Make a guess.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Gorazd on April 19, 2013, 01:52:37 PM
Then why do you all call me not Orthodox and a judaizer? You just agreed with me! My dissatisfaction is because most in the Church act like all of you have to me...

Btw, what religious sturcture, diocese or jurisdiction are you part of?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: SolEX01 on April 19, 2013, 02:00:59 PM
Then why do you all call me not Orthodox and a judaizer? You just agreed with me! My dissatisfaction is because most in the Church act like all of you have to me...

Btw, what religious sturcture, diocese or jurisdiction are you part of?

I asked him in Reply #50.  Still waiting for his answer even though I suspect that he's his own bishop of his own jurisdiction.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Romaios on April 19, 2013, 02:19:10 PM
Yom HaBikkarim, the Feast of First Fruits.

I believe it's yom habikkurim.

Quote from: Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon
בִּכּוּרִים n.m. first-fruits—Lv 2:14; 23:17 Nu 28:26 (P) 2 K 4:42 Na 3:12 Ne 13:31; בִּכֻּרִים Lv 23:20 (P); cstr. בִּכּוּרֵי Ex 23:16, 19 (E) 34:22, 26 (J) Nu 13:20 (E) 18:13 (P) Ne 10:36(×2) Ez 44:30; sf. בִּכּוּרֶיךָ Lv 2:14;—the first of grain and fruit that ripened and was gathered and offered to god according to the ritual; לֶחֶם הַבִּכּוּרִים bread made of the new grain offered at Pentecost Lv 23:20; יום הבכורים day of the first-fruits (Pentecost) Nu 28:26.

בִּכְרָה is "young camel".

Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Cognomen on April 19, 2013, 02:34:27 PM
You could hang it over an icon. Tallitot look quite similar to the icon scarves used by Ukrainians.

A great idea, especially if you have an old testament saint or an icon of Christ, it would be a powerful witness I think to a Jewish person coming to your home to see it used in that fashion. I have a friend who is a converted jew who does just that and it speaks volumes of his piety to  jewish friends who come into his Orthodox Christian home.

Thomas

How is that, Jews are not allowed images and here you wrap a tallit around it. I would think that would offend them. 

Wow, I actually agree with Yeshua HaDerekh. 

Thomas, with all due respect, your advice is really just a crude (if well intentioned) attempt to cram friendly interfaith sentiment into Orthodox praxis.  As you know, the very idea of images is strictly forbidden in Judaism, so the idea of putting a Jewish prayer shawl around an icon is, well, almost dually insulting to both faiths.

I know you didn't intend this, and I appreciate your point, as some Jews I know have been shocked and impressed by the continuation of certain Old Testament themes within Orthodox life.  But let's not push things too far, which I think your recommendation is doing.  Plus, dcommini already stated that he doesn't really know many Jews, so it's not like he's parading them through his prayer corner in the hopes of converting them en masse.   
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Cognomen on April 19, 2013, 02:36:23 PM
Judaising is a heresy. Let us remember that.

Indeed. Too bad it has gotten so popular as of late.

A lot of the "good" ones do.  And judging from some of the responses on here, we'll probably see this one continue to grow for awhile.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Cognomen on April 19, 2013, 02:37:11 PM
Yom HaBikkarim, the Feast of First Fruits.

I believe it's yom habikkurim.

Quote from: Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon
בִּכּוּרִים n.m. first-fruits—Lv 2:14; 23:17 Nu 28:26 (P) 2 K 4:42 Na 3:12 Ne 13:31; בִּכֻּרִים Lv 23:20 (P); cstr. בִּכּוּרֵי Ex 23:16, 19 (E) 34:22, 26 (J) Nu 13:20 (E) 18:13 (P) Ne 10:36(×2) Ez 44:30; sf. בִּכּוּרֶיךָ Lv 2:14;—the first of grain and fruit that ripened and was gathered and offered to god according to the ritual; לֶחֶם הַבִּכּוּרִים bread made of the new grain offered at Pentecost Lv 23:20; יום הבכורים day of the first-fruits (Pentecost) Nu 28:26.

בִּכְרָה is "young camel".


Someone should compile a list of messianic translation hilarity. 
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 19, 2013, 03:13:47 PM
Then why do you all call me not Orthodox and a judaizer? You just agreed with me! My dissatisfaction is because most in the Church act like all of you have to me...

Btw, what religious sturcture, diocese or jurisdiction are you part of?

I asked him in Reply #50.  Still waiting for his answer even though I suspect that he's his own bishop of his own jurisdiction.

So fascinated in it aren't you. EC
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 19, 2013, 03:15:37 PM
Then why do you all call me not Orthodox and a judaizer?

Make a guess.

because you like to cast the first stone and judge others...pharisee
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: SolEX01 on April 19, 2013, 03:22:40 PM
Then why do you all call me not Orthodox and a judaizer? You just agreed with me! My dissatisfaction is because most in the Church act like all of you have to me...

Btw, what religious sturcture, diocese or jurisdiction are you part of?

I asked him in Reply #50.  Still waiting for his answer even though I suspect that he's his own bishop of his own jurisdiction.

So fascinated in it aren't you. EC

EC - Eastern Catholic? or something else?  Did they throw you out because of your Judaizing?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Quinault on April 19, 2013, 04:03:28 PM
Having respect and appreciation for Judaism doesn't have to turn into co-opting the culture/religion. My priest is a famous EO priest that wrote a very famous booklet and book on Judaism and Orthodoxy. Not to be rude/proud, but if you were active in an Orthodox parish, you likely would know who he is. ;) The fact that you haven't guessed who he is, and you are so reluctant to say what your connection to being Orthodox is, makes me think you are a "home church" orthodox believer. I imagine you are taking bits and pieces from everywhere and attempting to make the "perfect" Christianity. The problem being that Orthodox Christianity isn't meant to be practiced in a vacuum. The church as a community is an essential aspect of the Orthodox life/faith. Yes, there are monastics that live alone. But they lived in community before they went out into seclusion, and continue to live in community in seclusion. They don't go out into the desert simply to practice their faith for themselves.

A prayer shawl is meant to be used in a specific way. You are taught how to use it. You live in a community that shows you how to use it. It isn't meant to be something you just pick up and start using because it is "cool." My priest wears something akin the a kippah, but not for religious reasons. And it is more akin to a tam than the little domes most people think of. There was a time when all men wore hats to be properly attired. I imagine growing up always wearing some sort of hat, you feel somewhat naked without one later in life.
 

Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: mike on April 19, 2013, 04:09:06 PM
This pseudodiscussion is fascinating but please, refrain from throwing epithets against your opponents.

This is for both sides.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Quinault on April 19, 2013, 04:11:54 PM
Religion aside, it is an issue of respect. It isn't respectful to co-opt a culture. As an American Indian I find hipster headdresses, and pocahottie costumes offensive in the extreme. I personally don't see the "reverrant" or "respectful" co-opting of culture to be any better than the irreverent and "fun" co-opting of culture.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: dcommini on April 19, 2013, 04:27:01 PM
pocahottie costumes

This phrase makes me mourn immensely for my great^10 grandmother.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Quinault on April 19, 2013, 04:41:35 PM
pocahottie costumes

This phrase makes me mourn immensely for my great^10 grandmother.

You can google that exact word and see the costume. There are all sorts of variations on the same "sexy indian" theme. No wonder native women are more than 2.5 times more likely to be sexually assaulted...http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/women-s-rights/violence-against-women/maze-of-injustice
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: dcommini on April 19, 2013, 04:44:20 PM
pocahottie costumes

This phrase makes me mourn immensely for my great^10 grandmother.

You can google that exact word and see the costume. There are all sorts of variations on the same "sexy indian" theme. No wonder native women are more than 2.5 times more likely to be sexually assaulted...http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/women-s-rights/violence-against-women/maze-of-injustice

I'd rather not see the costume, I'm already sure I know what it looks like. That costume and Disney do my great grandmother a great disservice.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: pmpn8rGPT on April 19, 2013, 05:44:49 PM
Religion aside, it is an issue of respect. It isn't respectful to co-opt a culture. As an American Indian I find hipster headdresses, and pocahottie costumes offensive in the extreme. I personally don't see the "reverrant" or "respectful" co-opting of culture to be any better than the irreverent and "fun" co-opting of culture.
I agree, I wonder what my grandmother's Indian reservation would think if someone came wearing one.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Velsigne on April 20, 2013, 11:25:21 AM
You could hang it over an icon. Tallitot look quite similar to the icon scarves used by Ukrainians.

A great idea, especially if you have an old testament saint or an icon of Christ, it would be a powerful witness I think to a Jewish person coming to your home to see it used in that fashion. I have a friend who is a converted jew who does just that and it speaks volumes of his piety to  jewish friends who come into his Orthodox Christian home.

Thomas

How is that, Jews are not allowed images and here you wrap a tallit around it. I would think that would offend them. 

Wow, I actually agree with Yeshua HaDerekh. 

Thomas, with all due respect, your advice is really just a crude (if well intentioned) attempt to cram friendly interfaith sentiment into Orthodox praxis.  As you know, the very idea of images is strictly forbidden in Judaism, so the idea of putting a Jewish prayer shawl around an icon is, well, almost dually insulting to both faiths.

I know you didn't intend this, and I appreciate your point, as some Jews I know have been shocked and impressed by the continuation of certain Old Testament themes within Orthodox life.  But let's not push things too far, which I think your recommendation is doing.  Plus, dcommini already stated that he doesn't really know many Jews, so it's not like he's parading them through his prayer corner in the hopes of converting them en masse.   


Jews had images: http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/artmuseum/exhibitions/archive/dura/synagogue.html

"Abandoned after a Sasanian siege and sack in 256 CE, the site remained virtually unexplored until 1928, when excavations at Dura-Europos were initiated by Yale University. Buildings uncovered included a synagogue painted with biblical scenes (something thought impossible given the prohibition against figural images in Jewish law); one of the first Christian house churches, with the earliest-known baptistery; and a place of worship for the mystery religion of Mithraism. Such discoveries fundamentally altered the understanding of religious practice in antiquity. Displaying highly significant treasures excavated at Dura-Europos and now in the collection of the Yale University Art Gallery, the exhibition partially reconstructs some of the city’s ancient religious spaces with their celebrated wall paintings (some newly restored) and explores interactions among the disparate cultural, religious, and professional groups that inhabited Dura-Europos. "

http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/artmuseum/exhibitions/archive/dura/
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Velsigne on April 20, 2013, 11:31:31 AM
I give things from other religions away to people who practice that religion. 

Someone gave me an old Roman Catholic style crucifix for Christmas, and another friend had given me a blessed rosary from Notre Dame Cathedral, so I put them in a box and mailed them to a person who needed them, a now practicing Catholic, but couldn't afford things.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Cognomen on April 20, 2013, 01:13:44 PM

Jews had images...


True, but not of God.  Icon corners have that.

I give things from other religions away to people who practice that religion. 

Someone gave me an old Roman Catholic style crucifix for Christmas, and another friend had given me a blessed rosary from Notre Dame Cathedral, so I put them in a box and mailed them to a person who needed them, a now practicing Catholic, but couldn't afford things.

Seems like an appropriate and thoughtful thing to do.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 20, 2013, 02:27:25 PM
Having respect and appreciation for Judaism doesn't have to turn into co-opting the culture/religion. My priest is a famous EO priest that wrote a very famous booklet and book on Judaism and Orthodoxy. Not to be rude/proud, but if you were active in an Orthodox parish, you likely would know who he is. ;) The fact that you haven't guessed who he is, and you are so reluctant to say what your connection to being Orthodox is, makes me think you are a "home church" orthodox believer. I imagine you are taking bits and pieces from everywhere and attempting to make the "perfect" Christianity. The problem being that Orthodox Christianity isn't meant to be practiced in a vacuum. The church as a community is an essential aspect of the Orthodox life/faith. Yes, there are monastics that live alone. But they lived in community before they went out into seclusion, and continue to live in community in seclusion. They don't go out into the desert simply to practice their faith for themselves.

A prayer shawl is meant to be used in a specific way. You are taught how to use it. You live in a community that shows you how to use it. It isn't meant to be something you just pick up and start using because it is "cool." My priest wears something akin the a kippah, but not for religious reasons. And it is more akin to a tam than the little domes most people think of. There was a time when all men wore hats to be properly attired. I imagine growing up always wearing some sort of hat, you feel somewhat naked without one later in life.
 



Fr. Bernstein in Bethesda MD (at least that is where he used to be I think)? You can "imagine" all you want and it is quite obvious that you do quite often here! You are wrong, I am cradle Orthodox. I am now under the EP.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 20, 2013, 02:30:39 PM

[/quote]

EC - Eastern Catholic? or something else?  Did they throw you out because of your Judaizing?
[/quote]

How lovingly Orthodox of you...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: SolEX01 on April 20, 2013, 02:49:23 PM
Quote from: SolEX01
EC - Eastern Catholic? or something else?  Did they throw you out because of your Judaizing?

How lovingly Orthodox of you...

How can you be under the EP if you don't recognize his apostolic succession back to St. Andrew?  You said the Orthodox church ended with the death of St. John the Theologian circa 100 AD.  How do you explain where Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew comes from?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Quinault on April 20, 2013, 02:49:31 PM
Having respect and appreciation for Judaism doesn't have to turn into co-opting the culture/religion. My priest is a famous EO priest that wrote a very famous booklet and book on Judaism and Orthodoxy. Not to be rude/proud, but if you were active in an Orthodox parish, you likely would know who he is. ;) The fact that you haven't guessed who he is, and you are so reluctant to say what your connection to being Orthodox is, makes me think you are a "home church" orthodox believer. I imagine you are taking bits and pieces from everywhere and attempting to make the "perfect" Christianity. The problem being that Orthodox Christianity isn't meant to be practiced in a vacuum. The church as a community is an essential aspect of the Orthodox life/faith. Yes, there are monastics that live alone. But they lived in community before they went out into seclusion, and continue to live in community in seclusion. They don't go out into the desert simply to practice their faith for themselves.

A prayer shawl is meant to be used in a specific way. You are taught how to use it. You live in a community that shows you how to use it. It isn't meant to be something you just pick up and start using because it is "cool." My priest wears something akin the a kippah, but not for religious reasons. And it is more akin to a tam than the little domes most people think of. There was a time when all men wore hats to be properly attired. I imagine growing up always wearing some sort of hat, you feel somewhat naked without one later in life.
 



Fr. Bernstein in Bethesda MD (at least that is where he used to be I think)? You can "imagine" all you want and it is quite obvious that you do quite often here! You are wrong, I am cradle Orthodox. I am now under the EP.

Good internet searching skills ;) But he doesn't live in Betheseda MD obviously since *I* don't live in MD.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 20, 2013, 04:05:01 PM
Having respect and appreciation for Judaism doesn't have to turn into co-opting the culture/religion. My priest is a famous EO priest that wrote a very famous booklet and book on Judaism and Orthodoxy. Not to be rude/proud, but if you were active in an Orthodox parish, you likely would know who he is. ;) The fact that you haven't guessed who he is, and you are so reluctant to say what your connection to being Orthodox is, makes me think you are a "home church" orthodox believer. I imagine you are taking bits and pieces from everywhere and attempting to make the "perfect" Christianity. The problem being that Orthodox Christianity isn't meant to be practiced in a vacuum. The church as a community is an essential aspect of the Orthodox life/faith. Yes, there are monastics that live alone. But they lived in community before they went out into seclusion, and continue to live in community in seclusion. They don't go out into the desert simply to practice their faith for themselves.

A prayer shawl is meant to be used in a specific way. You are taught how to use it. You live in a community that shows you how to use it. It isn't meant to be something you just pick up and start using because it is "cool." My priest wears something akin the a kippah, but not for religious reasons. And it is more akin to a tam than the little domes most people think of. There was a time when all men wore hats to be properly attired. I imagine growing up always wearing some sort of hat, you feel somewhat naked without one later in life.
 



Fr. Bernstein in Bethesda MD (at least that is where he used to be I think)? You can "imagine" all you want and it is quite obvious that you do quite often here! You are wrong, I am cradle Orthodox. I am now under the EP.

Good internet searching skills ;) But he doesn't live in Betheseda MD obviously since *I* don't live in MD.

Wrong again. I actually contacted him once.  I believe he was in MD at that time but that was years ago...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 20, 2013, 04:06:07 PM
Quote from: SolEX01
EC - Eastern Catholic? or something else?  Did they throw you out because of your Judaizing?

How lovingly Orthodox of you...

How can you be under the EP if you don't recognize his apostolic succession back to St. Andrew?  You said the Orthodox church ended with the death of St. John the Theologian circa 100 AD.  How do you explain where Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew comes from?

I never said ANY of that...YOU all said I did.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: SolEX01 on April 20, 2013, 04:36:22 PM
Quote from: SolEX01
EC - Eastern Catholic? or something else?  Did they throw you out because of your Judaizing?

How lovingly Orthodox of you...

How can you be under the EP if you don't recognize his apostolic succession back to St. Andrew?  You said the Orthodox church ended with the death of St. John the Theologian circa 100 AD.  How do you explain where Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew comes from?

I never said ANY of that...YOU all said I did.

No one is putting words in your mouth.  The question is a fair one; how do you reconcile current Orthodox Christian faith and hierarchy with the one that died in 100 AD?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 20, 2013, 04:38:39 PM
Quote from: SolEX01
EC - Eastern Catholic? or something else?  Did they throw you out because of your Judaizing?

How lovingly Orthodox of you...

How can you be under the EP if you don't recognize his apostolic succession back to St. Andrew?  You said the Orthodox church ended with the death of St. John the Theologian circa 100 AD.  How do you explain where Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew comes from?

I never said ANY of that...YOU all said I did.

No one is putting words in your mouth.  The question is a fair one; how do you reconcile current Orthodox Christian faith and hierarchy with the one that died in 100 AD?

Died in 100AD? Only John died in 100AD. I never said the Church did.  What is there to reconcile?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Quinault on April 20, 2013, 04:46:35 PM
Having respect and appreciation for Judaism doesn't have to turn into co-opting the culture/religion. My priest is a famous EO priest that wrote a very famous booklet and book on Judaism and Orthodoxy. Not to be rude/proud, but if you were active in an Orthodox parish, you likely would know who he is. ;) The fact that you haven't guessed who he is, and you are so reluctant to say what your connection to being Orthodox is, makes me think you are a "home church" orthodox believer. I imagine you are taking bits and pieces from everywhere and attempting to make the "perfect" Christianity. The problem being that Orthodox Christianity isn't meant to be practiced in a vacuum. The church as a community is an essential aspect of the Orthodox life/faith. Yes, there are monastics that live alone. But they lived in community before they went out into seclusion, and continue to live in community in seclusion. They don't go out into the desert simply to practice their faith for themselves.

A prayer shawl is meant to be used in a specific way. You are taught how to use it. You live in a community that shows you how to use it. It isn't meant to be something you just pick up and start using because it is "cool." My priest wears something akin the a kippah, but not for religious reasons. And it is more akin to a tam than the little domes most people think of. There was a time when all men wore hats to be properly attired. I imagine growing up always wearing some sort of hat, you feel somewhat naked without one later in life.
 



Fr. Bernstein in Bethesda MD (at least that is where he used to be I think)? You can "imagine" all you want and it is quite obvious that you do quite often here! You are wrong, I am cradle Orthodox. I am now under the EP.

Good internet searching skills ;) But he doesn't live in Betheseda MD obviously since *I* don't live in MD.

Wrong again. I actually contacted him once.  I believe he was in MD at that time but that was years ago...

Would have to have been quite some years ago given the fact that he has been here over 20 years...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: SolEX01 on April 20, 2013, 04:48:08 PM
Quote from: SolEX01
EC - Eastern Catholic? or something else?  Did they throw you out because of your Judaizing?

How lovingly Orthodox of you...

How can you be under the EP if you don't recognize his apostolic succession back to St. Andrew?  You said the Orthodox church ended with the death of St. John the Theologian circa 100 AD.  How do you explain where Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew comes from?

I never said ANY of that...YOU all said I did.

No one is putting words in your mouth.  The question is a fair one; how do you reconcile current Orthodox Christian faith and hierarchy with the one that died in 100 AD?

Died in 100AD? Only John died in 100AD. I never said the Church did.  What is there to reconcile?

Your use of Jewish practices and beliefs.  One cannot serve two masters.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Quinault on April 20, 2013, 04:54:16 PM
Although Fr. James recognizes the parallels between Judaism and Orthodoxy clearly. He would never attempt to bring Judaism into Orthodoxy like some sort of Messianic Orthodoxy. For him it was reconciling what he already knew/believed with Orthodox Christianity. He is Jewish and Orthodox. But he certainly doesn't seek to take Jewish practices and make them Orthodox. He simply maintains the ones in harmony. For example; he would not do a Passover service for our parish. Although the service is fascinating, it isn't as meaningful as the services of Holy Week. He did the Messianic Judaism with Moshe Rosen when he was a part of Jews for Jesus, he left that movement for a reason ;)
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Quinault on April 20, 2013, 05:00:37 PM
Fr. Av is a wonderful Jewish Orthodox Christian priest as well. But he doesn't attempt to force Judaism into Orthodoxy. https://sites.google.com/site/hebrewinchurch/

Fr. Aleksandr is a very prolific writer. If you really want to investigate Judaism in connection with Orthodoxy, I would read what he has written.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 20, 2013, 05:07:15 PM
Having respect and appreciation for Judaism doesn't have to turn into co-opting the culture/religion. My priest is a famous EO priest that wrote a very famous booklet and book on Judaism and Orthodoxy. Not to be rude/proud, but if you were active in an Orthodox parish, you likely would know who he is. ;) The fact that you haven't guessed who he is, and you are so reluctant to say what your connection to being Orthodox is, makes me think you are a "home church" orthodox believer. I imagine you are taking bits and pieces from everywhere and attempting to make the "perfect" Christianity. The problem being that Orthodox Christianity isn't meant to be practiced in a vacuum. The church as a community is an essential aspect of the Orthodox life/faith. Yes, there are monastics that live alone. But they lived in community before they went out into seclusion, and continue to live in community in seclusion. They don't go out into the desert simply to practice their faith for themselves.

A prayer shawl is meant to be used in a specific way. You are taught how to use it. You live in a community that shows you how to use it. It isn't meant to be something you just pick up and start using because it is "cool." My priest wears something akin the a kippah, but not for religious reasons. And it is more akin to a tam than the little domes most people think of. There was a time when all men wore hats to be properly attired. I imagine growing up always wearing some sort of hat, you feel somewhat naked without one later in life.
 



Fr. Bernstein in Bethesda MD (at least that is where he used to be I think)? You can "imagine" all you want and it is quite obvious that you do quite often here! You are wrong, I am cradle Orthodox. I am now under the EP.

Good internet searching skills ;) But he doesn't live in Betheseda MD obviously since *I* don't live in MD.

Wrong again. I actually contacted him once.  I believe he was in MD at that time but that was years ago...

Would have to have been quite some years ago given the fact that he has been here over 20 years...

It was, but I now not sure it was Fr. James. I may have emailed him too. I think there was a Jewish priest in the OCA in MD too. I have the "Orthodoxy: Jewish and Christian" pamphlet right here in front of me published in 1990.   
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 20, 2013, 05:08:25 PM
Fr. Av is a wonderful Jewish Orthodox Christian priest as well. But he doesn't attempt to force Judaism into Orthodoxy. https://sites.google.com/site/hebrewinchurch/

Fr. Aleksandr is a very prolific writer. If you really want to investigate Judaism in connection with Orthodoxy, I would read what he has written.

How can one force what was already there????
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Quinault on April 20, 2013, 05:10:40 PM
You recognize that there are certainly Jewish practices and beliefs that are incompatible with Orthodoxy, right?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 20, 2013, 05:14:37 PM
Although Fr. James recognizes the parallels between Judaism and Orthodoxy clearly. He would never attempt to bring Judaism into Orthodoxy like some sort of Messianic Orthodoxy. For him it was reconciling what he already knew/believed with Orthodox Christianity. He is Jewish and Orthodox. But he certainly doesn't seek to take Jewish practices and make them Orthodox. He simply maintains the ones in harmony. For example; he would not do a Passover service for our parish. Although the service is fascinating, it isn't as meaningful as the services of Holy Week. He did the Messianic Judaism with Moshe Rosen when he was a part of Jews for Jesus, he left that movement for a reason ;)

The Orthodox church DID JUST THAT!
 
Passover became Holy Thursday
Yom HaBikkurim became Pascha
Shavuot became Pentecost  

Ask him about what I have said regarding the feast days.  All of this was observed by the Apostles and the Church.  I am not inventing anything new. I am just observing what was...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 20, 2013, 05:15:16 PM
You recognize that there are certainly Jewish practices and beliefs that are incompatible with Orthodoxy, right?

Of course!
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 20, 2013, 05:16:30 PM
Quote from: SolEX01
EC - Eastern Catholic? or something else?  Did they throw you out because of your Judaizing?

How lovingly Orthodox of you...

How can you be under the EP if you don't recognize his apostolic succession back to St. Andrew?  You said the Orthodox church ended with the death of St. John the Theologian circa 100 AD.  How do you explain where Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew comes from?

I never said ANY of that...YOU all said I did.

No one is putting words in your mouth.  The question is a fair one; how do you reconcile current Orthodox Christian faith and hierarchy with the one that died in 100 AD?

Died in 100AD? Only John died in 100AD. I never said the Church did.  What is there to reconcile?

Your use of Jewish practices and beliefs.  One cannot serve two masters.

I only serve one...YESHUA
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Quinault on April 20, 2013, 05:18:59 PM
Both Fr. Aleksandr and Fr. Bernstein view Orthodoxy as the fulfillment of Judaism rather than a replacement. Neither one of them would view Jewish practices as superior to Orthodox practices. From how you write on this issue, it seems that you view Jewish practices as superior/preferable to Orthodox practices.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Romaios on April 20, 2013, 05:21:10 PM
Fr. Aleksandr is a very prolific writer. If you really want to investigate Judaism in connection with Orthodoxy, I would read what he has written.

For a moment I thought you meant this Fr. Aleksandr (http://www.alexandermen.com/Main_Page), another famous Russian Orthodox priest of Jewish descent.

A renowned Jewish convert to Orthodoxy in Romania was Fr. Nicolae Steinhardt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolae_Steinhardt).

Neither of them was a Judaizer.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Quinault on April 20, 2013, 05:24:36 PM
If you are celebrating the Jewish services of Passover and the like, you are choosing to do something that is a foreshadowing of the fulfillment in the Orthodox church. Why would you desire to do something halfway, when you can do it fully? Simply because you have a romantic love for Judaism?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: SolEX01 on April 20, 2013, 05:28:30 PM
Quote from: SolEX01
EC - Eastern Catholic? or something else?  Did they throw you out because of your Judaizing?

How lovingly Orthodox of you...

How can you be under the EP if you don't recognize his apostolic succession back to St. Andrew?  You said the Orthodox church ended with the death of St. John the Theologian circa 100 AD.  How do you explain where Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew comes from?

I never said ANY of that...YOU all said I did.

No one is putting words in your mouth.  The question is a fair one; how do you reconcile current Orthodox Christian faith and hierarchy with the one that died in 100 AD?

Died in 100AD? Only John died in 100AD. I never said the Church did.  What is there to reconcile?

Your use of Jewish practices and beliefs.  One cannot serve two masters.

I only serve one...YESHUA

In a syncretic way - incorporating Eastern Orthodox practices with those of Judaism by claiming they are one in the same?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Quinault on April 20, 2013, 05:31:04 PM
Since Fr. James teaches the catechism classes, I am well aware that the feasts of Orthodoxy have roots in Judaism. I don't have to ask him about the Jewish feasts in connection with the Orthodox feasts. Although, if you read a nice Anglican Book; "The Shape of the Liturgy" you can learn more about that. Orthodoxy isn't the only faith that recognizes that connection.

But my view, and the view that has been taught to me by Fr. James, is that Orthodox feasts are the fulfillment of the Jewish feasts. To celebrate the Jewish feasts instead of the Orthodox feasts, you are actively choosing the lesser option. Once you know the Truth, you can't/shouldn't go back to the lesser truth.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on April 20, 2013, 07:04:36 PM

I have no clue what to do with the prayer shawl... So what do I do?

 I would use it to drape over an icon like the Slavic tradition.  There are some icons that depict a shawl hovering over the saints depicted.  The icon of the Last Supper usually depicts this. 
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: LBK on April 20, 2013, 07:16:41 PM
There are some icons that depict a shawl hovering over the saints depicted.  The icon of the Last Supper usually depicts this. 

The drape seen in icons is a symbol that the event depicted in the icon took place indoors. Proper icons use inverse perspective and other means to "uncover" what went on, in ways which are the opposite of earthly realism, to express heavenly and spiritual reality. The Mystical Supper, though it was conducted inside, is not shown in a room with walls which limits it in time and place, but is shown "in the open", as the eternal event that it is. The festooning of the drape in the icon's composition is the motif which tells us that the Supper indeed took place indoors.

Conventional icons of saints do not show the drape, unless it is in a panel of a "life" icon, showing a scene from the saint's life which took place indoors.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 20, 2013, 07:34:10 PM
If you are celebrating the Jewish services of Passover and the like, you are choosing to do something that is a foreshadowing of the fulfillment in the Orthodox church. Why would you desire to do something halfway, when you can do it fully? Simply because you have a romantic love for Judaism?

The early church observed Passover as did the Apostles even after Christ's death. There is nothing wrong with it, unless you think what they did was wrong in some way.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 20, 2013, 07:36:21 PM
Both Fr. Aleksandr and Fr. Bernstein view Orthodoxy as the fulfillment of Judaism rather than a replacement. Neither one of them would view Jewish practices as superior to Orthodox practices. From how you write on this issue, it seems that you view Jewish practices as superior/preferable to Orthodox practices.

I also agree with them...fulfillment.  I don't think they are better, just compatible.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Quinault on April 20, 2013, 07:48:04 PM
You can't do them both. It has to be one or the other. The Passover meal can't be served during Holy Week since we *fast* during Holy Week.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Quinault on April 20, 2013, 07:50:49 PM
OK, I get it. You are just entranced with Judaism and want to find a way to have your menorah and your icons too. The problem being that a menorah isn't just a candleholder, and an icon isn't just a picture on the wall. By attempting to do both, you demean them both. It's a real shame actually. And for all the respect for the various Orthodox and Jewish priests you claim to have, you certainly stomp on their beliefs without thought....
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Quinault on April 20, 2013, 07:53:59 PM
Both Fr. Aleksandr and Fr. Bernstein view Orthodoxy as the fulfillment of Judaism rather than a replacement. Neither one of them would view Jewish practices as superior to Orthodox practices. From how you write on this issue, it seems that you view Jewish practices as superior/preferable to Orthodox practices.

I also agree with them...fulfillment.  I don't think they are better, just compatible.

No, not compatible. You can't claim to know how to ride a bicycle without training wheels, then keep the training wheels on. It is one or the other; either you ride with the training wheels, or you ride without them-not both.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 20, 2013, 07:59:25 PM
You can't do them both. It has to be one or the other. The Passover meal can't be served during Holy Week since we *fast* during Holy Week.

Sure you can. We do it in Church on Holy Thursday.  BTW, fasting is optional in Orthodoxy.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Quinault on April 20, 2013, 08:02:39 PM
Does your priest know that you prefer to celebrate the Jewish feasts over the Orthodox ones?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Quinault on April 20, 2013, 08:08:06 PM
You can't do them both. It has to be one or the other. The Passover meal can't be served during Holy Week since we *fast* during Holy Week.

Sure you can. We do it in Church on Holy Thursday.  BTW, fasting is optional in Orthodoxy.

OK, not going to touch that with a 10 foot pole other than to say; wait....waah?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 20, 2013, 08:09:59 PM
Both Fr. Aleksandr and Fr. Bernstein view Orthodoxy as the fulfillment of Judaism rather than a replacement. Neither one of them would view Jewish practices as superior to Orthodox practices. From how you write on this issue, it seems that you view Jewish practices as superior/preferable to Orthodox practices.

I also agree with them...fulfillment.  I don't think they are better, just compatible.


No, not compatible. You can't claim to know how to ride a bicycle without training wheels, then keep the training wheels on. It is one or the other; either you ride with the training wheels, or you ride without them-not both.

I don't think you understand. If you did you would not be saying what you are.  You are saying what the Apostles did was wrong then because they did as Yeshua taught them. Polycarp, who was taught under St John observed it because St John taught him to. Polycarp followed the Eastern practice of celebrating Passover on the 14th of Nisan, the day of the Jewish Passover, regardless of what day of the week it fell.  
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Quinault on April 20, 2013, 08:11:36 PM
I don't think you understand, you are claiming that the Jewish Orthodox priests that choose not to celebrate the Jewish feasts over the Orthodox feasts are somehow incorrect or missing out. By encouraging others to celebrate these feasts, and saying they should be celebrated concurrently (which they can't BTW) you are claiming your way is better.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 20, 2013, 08:12:21 PM
Does your priest know that you prefer to celebrate the Jewish feasts over the Orthodox ones?

Why do you continually run in circles.  You cant say that Orthodox feast have nothing to do with the original Jewish feasts they came from. They are fulfillments of the Jewish feasts...how many times must I repeat this?????????????
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Quinault on April 20, 2013, 08:13:18 PM
How exactly do you go directly from the Holy Thursday services, to a Passover service? How can you do them concurrently? Do you take the meal into the services with you?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 20, 2013, 08:17:27 PM
I don't think you understand, you are claiming that the Jewish Orthodox priests that choose not to celebrate the Jewish feasts over the Orthodox feasts are somehow incorrect or missing out. By encouraging others to celebrate these feasts, and saying they should be celebrated concurrently (which they can't BTW) you are claiming your way is better.

I never said that! If they do not want to that is up to them. You see, this is what is happening. I said 2+2 =4. You say, why do you keep saying 2+2=50.  I say, I didn't. You say, does your priest know that you think 2+2=50? I say, I never said that, you said I said that. Then you say, well you cant believe 2+2=4 AND 2+2=50, you must choose one!
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Quinault on April 20, 2013, 08:18:10 PM
Do you just think the Passover meal is niffty and eat it whenever you want? Because I am pretty positive that both the Holy Thursday services, and the Passover services have specific times of day in which they are to be celebrated.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Quinault on April 20, 2013, 08:22:22 PM
Let's see; if I attend the Holy Thursday services at my parish I am there from 3pm until about 10pm. There is a little break of about 45 minutes in the afternoon, is that when I should celebrate Passover?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 20, 2013, 08:23:10 PM
How exactly do you go directly from the Holy Thursday services, to a Passover service? How can you do them concurrently? Do you take the meal into the services with you?

http://www.stgeorgegreenville.org/OurFaith/Holy%20Week/HolyWeek.html

Passover occurs just after sundown.  They do not conflict.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 20, 2013, 08:24:59 PM
Let's see; if I attend the Holy Thursday services at my parish I am there from 3pm until about 10pm. There is a little break of about 45 minutes in the afternoon, is that when I should celebrate Passover?

3PM to 10PM? What are you doing?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Quinault on April 20, 2013, 08:27:15 PM
We have vigil, the passion gospels, and carrying of the cross thursday at sunset which takes about 3 hours.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Quinault on April 20, 2013, 08:30:12 PM
Washing of feet is at 3pm. That could be moved to the morning, but it wouldn't change the fact that the evening services conflict with any Passover services. We have an afternoon service so people can get off work to attend.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 20, 2013, 08:31:41 PM
We have vigil, the passion gospels, and carrying of the cross thursday at sunset which takes about 3 hours.

What do you do the other 4 hrs? You said 3 PM to 10 PM...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Quinault on April 20, 2013, 08:36:38 PM
3-5:15 service
6-9-ish service

The 10 pm was factoring in commute for us. But even if I lived next door to the parish, I couldn't possibly have a Passover meal at the right time. Vigil of Holy Friday is Holy Thursday evening.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 20, 2013, 08:39:05 PM
3-5:15 service
6-9-ish service

The 10 pm was factoring in commute for us. But even if I lived next door to the parish, I couldn't possibly have a Passover meal at the right time. Vigil of Holy Friday is Holy Thursday evening.

http://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/worship/the-church-year/holy-thursday
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Quinault on April 20, 2013, 08:39:51 PM
You said you are cradle Orthodox. You know that the liturgical day starts at sunset. What are you confused by?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: SolEX01 on April 20, 2013, 08:40:00 PM
You can't do them both. It has to be one or the other. The Passover meal can't be served during Holy Week since we *fast* during Holy Week.

Sure you can. We do it in Church on Holy Thursday.  BTW, fasting is optional in Orthodoxy.

Jesus in the desert had the same choice we did which is why we commemorate the Great Lent which has no analog in Judaism.

http://www.howtofast.net/spiritual/judaism.html (http://www.howtofast.net/spiritual/judaism.html)
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 20, 2013, 08:41:57 PM
You said you are cradle Orthodox. You know that the liturgical day starts at sunset. What are you confused by?

I am not confused by anything...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Quinault on April 20, 2013, 08:44:29 PM
If vigil (not lamentations the next night) starts sunset on Holy Thursday, and Passover has to be celebrated at sunset on that same day; how exactly can you celebrate both?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 20, 2013, 08:51:07 PM
You can't do them both. It has to be one or the other. The Passover meal can't be served during Holy Week since we *fast* during Holy Week.

Sure you can. We do it in Church on Holy Thursday.  BTW, fasting is optional in Orthodoxy.

I'm not going to say that you're right other than to say that one can choose to fast or not to fast.  Jesus in the desert had the same choice we did which is why we commemorate the Great Lent which has no analog in Judaism.

http://www.howtofast.net/spiritual/judaism.html (http://www.howtofast.net/spiritual/judaism.html)

Fasting in Orthodoxy is a tool. The Tradition of the Church has always seen fasting as only a tool to combat the passions and to open the door to the renewal of the Holy Spirit: beyond this higher purpose it has no value.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: SolEX01 on April 20, 2013, 08:59:04 PM
You can't do them both. It has to be one or the other. The Passover meal can't be served during Holy Week since we *fast* during Holy Week.

Sure you can. We do it in Church on Holy Thursday.  BTW, fasting is optional in Orthodoxy.

I'm not going to say that you're right other than to say that one can choose to fast or not to fast.  Jesus in the desert had the same choice we did which is why we commemorate the Great Lent which has no analog in Judaism.

http://www.howtofast.net/spiritual/judaism.html (http://www.howtofast.net/spiritual/judaism.html)

Fasting in Orthodoxy is a tool. The Tradition of the Church has always seen fasting as only a tool to combat the passions and to open the door to the renewal of the Holy Spirit: beyond this higher purpose it has no value.

There's no concept of humility.  No self-denial?  No ascetics?  Eat lamb on Holy Thursday (even though sundown Holy Thursday = Holy Friday on the liturgical calendar) because that is the Passover meal?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 20, 2013, 09:10:15 PM
You can't do them both. It has to be one or the other. The Passover meal can't be served during Holy Week since we *fast* during Holy Week.

Sure you can. We do it in Church on Holy Thursday.  BTW, fasting is optional in Orthodoxy.

I'm not going to say that you're right other than to say that one can choose to fast or not to fast.  Jesus in the desert had the same choice we did which is why we commemorate the Great Lent which has no analog in Judaism.

http://www.howtofast.net/spiritual/judaism.html (http://www.howtofast.net/spiritual/judaism.html)

Fasting in Orthodoxy is a tool. The Tradition of the Church has always seen fasting as only a tool to combat the passions and to open the door to the renewal of the Holy Spirit: beyond this higher purpose it has no value.

There's no concept of humility.  No self-denial?  No ascetics?  Eat lamb on Holy Thursday (even though sundown Holy Thursday = Holy Friday on the liturgical calendar) because that is the Passover meal?

Who said anything about eating lamb? The lambs were not even sacrificed yet and there was no lamb at the last supper...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Quinault on April 20, 2013, 09:13:01 PM
Are you really confused about the lamb? Do you even know what foods are served at the Passover meal?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: SolEX01 on April 20, 2013, 09:14:40 PM
You can't do them both. It has to be one or the other. The Passover meal can't be served during Holy Week since we *fast* during Holy Week.

Sure you can. We do it in Church on Holy Thursday.  BTW, fasting is optional in Orthodoxy.

I'm not going to say that you're right other than to say that one can choose to fast or not to fast.  Jesus in the desert had the same choice we did which is why we commemorate the Great Lent which has no analog in Judaism.

http://www.howtofast.net/spiritual/judaism.html (http://www.howtofast.net/spiritual/judaism.html)

Fasting in Orthodoxy is a tool. The Tradition of the Church has always seen fasting as only a tool to combat the passions and to open the door to the renewal of the Holy Spirit: beyond this higher purpose it has no value.

There's no concept of humility.  No self-denial?  No ascetics?  Eat lamb on Holy Thursday (even though sundown Holy Thursday = Holy Friday on the liturgical calendar) because that is the Passover meal?

Who said anything about eating lamb?

Whatever is eaten at the passover meal - beef brisket, turkey, chicken

http://www.jewfaq.org/holidaya.htm (http://www.jewfaq.org/holidaya.htm)

Didn't the children of Israel eat lamb and unleavened bread before the first born of the Egyptians were killed: Exodus 12:21-28
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Quinault on April 20, 2013, 09:14:48 PM
Here's the "dummies" version:
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/the-symbolic-foods-at-a-passover-seder.html
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Quinault on April 20, 2013, 09:17:58 PM
Or is this more like your passover meal, with beets instead of a bone?
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/03/22/a-vegan-passover/
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: dcommini on April 20, 2013, 09:18:39 PM
I'm still trying to figure out how my thread on a simple question that wasn't even a page long a month ago has now turned into this discussion that is 4 pages long in just a matter of a few days...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Quinault on April 20, 2013, 09:58:54 PM
In my view, it turned into a discussion when someone suggested that you use the tallit for prayer.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Quinault on April 20, 2013, 10:08:13 PM
I recall at my cousin's deathbed that his mother and her other friends were parading around praying wearing tallitot. (holding them out like butterfly wings and dancing for some reason unknown to me) They were convinced that if they prayed hard enough while wearing them, he would be healed of his skin cancer. Apparently it didn't occur to them that *treating* his skin cancer years before when he was diagnosed would have been a better idea. They had their own little Messianic Jewish home church, and they "believed" that my cousin would be cured. He died the next day. I was there when they were starting the prayer service. My aunt knew I was Orthodox. Her friends just knew I had a very Jewish name. They essentially accused me as being the reason my cousin wasn't healed. I didn't "believe" thus God wouldn't heal my cousin.

Needless to say, I find people co-opting items from the various cultures/religions they like extremely offensive. Judaism is an fascinating religion/culture. There is much to be learned from it. But just because I like the beauty and idea of a Mezuzah, doesn't mean I will be putting one on/in my house.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 21, 2013, 04:49:51 AM
I recall at my cousin's deathbed that his mother and her other friends were parading around praying wearing tallitot. (holding them out like butterfly wings and dancing for some reason unknown to me) They were convinced that if they prayed hard enough while wearing them, he would be healed of his skin cancer. Apparently it didn't occur to them that *treating* his skin cancer years before when he was diagnosed would have been a better idea. They had their own little Messianic Jewish home church, and they "believed" that my cousin would be cured. He died the next day. I was there when they were starting the prayer service. My aunt knew I was Orthodox. Her friends just knew I had a very Jewish name. They essentially accused me as being the reason my cousin wasn't healed. I didn't "believe" thus God wouldn't heal my cousin.

Needless to say, I find people co-opting items from the various cultures/religions they like extremely offensive. Judaism is an fascinating religion/culture. There is much to be learned from it. But just because I like the beauty and idea of a Mezuzah, doesn't mean I will be putting one on/in my house.

I understand what you are saying. However, don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Don't condemn and judge others (even through it is human nature) just because you had a bad experience, others may not have had that same bad experience. I do believe miracles can happen even in Orthodoxy.  However, they happen when they happen for reasons we can't understand.  it was very wrong for them to blame you IMO.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Cyrillic on April 21, 2013, 04:54:21 AM
YESHUA

Not this again  :-\

Please, stop pretending that you're a Jew.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 21, 2013, 05:23:32 AM
You can't do them both. It has to be one or the other. The Passover meal can't be served during Holy Week since we *fast* during Holy Week.

Sure you can. We do it in Church on Holy Thursday.  BTW, fasting is optional in Orthodoxy.

I'm not going to say that you're right other than to say that one can choose to fast or not to fast.  Jesus in the desert had the same choice we did which is why we commemorate the Great Lent which has no analog in Judaism.

http://www.howtofast.net/spiritual/judaism.html (http://www.howtofast.net/spiritual/judaism.html)

Fasting in Orthodoxy is a tool. The Tradition of the Church has always seen fasting as only a tool to combat the passions and to open the door to the renewal of the Holy Spirit: beyond this higher purpose it has no value.

There's no concept of humility.  No self-denial?  No ascetics?  Eat lamb on Holy Thursday (even though sundown Holy Thursday = Holy Friday on the liturgical calendar) because that is the Passover meal?

Who said anything about eating lamb?

Whatever is eaten at the passover meal - beef brisket, turkey, chicken

http://www.jewfaq.org/holidaya.htm (http://www.jewfaq.org/holidaya.htm)

Didn't the children of Israel eat lamb and unleavened bread before the first born of the Egyptians were killed: Exodus 12:21-28

I know what traditional Jews eat at a Passover seder. However, my focus is on what Yeshua did.  It is a new covenant.  

"Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband unto them, says the Lord'"

"For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night (at sunset was the start of the fourteenth day of the first month) in which he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat, this is my body, which is broken for you. This do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood. This do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come."

It is an important day for me as well as Pascha.  I do not take it lightly and am offended when people here make jest of it.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 21, 2013, 05:24:41 AM
YESHUA

Not this again  :-\

Please, stop pretending that you're a Jew.

Why are you offended by using His real name?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 21, 2013, 05:34:08 AM
YESHUA

Not this again  :-\

Please, stop pretending that you're a Jew.

I'm not
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Romaios on April 21, 2013, 07:22:23 AM
YESHUA

Not this again  :-\

Please, stop pretending that you're a Jew.

Why are you offended by using His real name?

It's highly unlikely that anyone ever called him that back in his day, since they spoke Aramaic in Galilee, not Hebrew. So "Yeshua" is just a Messianic reconstruction. Just like with Jehovah's witnesses, there's some ... vowel trouble.

There was no "a" at the end. The Syriac-speaking Christians still use his original name, i.e. Yeshu. The Greek transliteration merely adds one "s" for the Nominative or a "n" for the Accusative.   
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 21, 2013, 09:38:45 AM
YESHUA

Not this again  :-\

Please, stop pretending that you're a Jew.

Why are you offended by using His real name?

It's highly unlikely that anyone ever called him that back in his day, since they spoke Aramaic in Galilee, not Hebrew. So "Yeshua" is just a Messianic reconstruction. Just like with Jehovah's witnesses, there's some ... vowel trouble.

There was no "a" at the end. The Syriac-speaking Christians still use his original name, i.e. Yeshu. The Greek transliteration merely adds one "s" for the Nominative or a "n" for the Accusative.    

Actually Yeshua it is a shortening and later form of Yehoshua used during the 2nd Temple period. The name Yeshu is unknown in archeological sources and inscriptions.  

There were 24  ossuaries found inscribed with Yeshuas and Yehoshuas. None of the others have Yeshu (Shanks and Witherington 2003)

I don't tell you that using Jesus from the Greek should be spelled Eeoosous.  Yeshua and Yeshu are basically the same spelling but using the equivalent Aramaic letters for Yeshu. Yeshu is the pronunciation used in the west syriac dialect.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Cyrillic on April 21, 2013, 09:40:41 AM
Why do you even care about this? Isn't the New Testament good enough?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 21, 2013, 10:00:07 AM
Why do you even care about this? Isn't the New Testament good enough?

I don't know, I wasn't the one who had a problem with it. 
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Romaios on April 21, 2013, 10:06:07 AM
Actually Yeshua it is a shortening and later form of Yehoshua used during the 2nd Temple period. The name Yeshu is unknown in archeological sources and inscriptions. 

There were 24  ossuaries found inscribed with Yeshuas and Yehoshuas. None of the others have Yeshu (Shanks and Witherington 2003)

Of course you know, Aramaic/Hebrew inscriptions have no vowels. Aramaic/Hebrew names would only end in "s" if they were transcribed in Greek. Even so, the ones you quote sound like funny (phoney) reconstructions (no s ending in Semitic languages; no sh grapheme in Greek). The earliest Greek sources unanimously transcribe the name as Ἰησοῦς. There's no reason why they would have altered the name to leave that "a" out. The only logical conclusion is that it wasn't there to begin with. 

Moreover, none of those ossuaries contains the bones of Our Lord and probably very few if any belong to Galilean peasants.   
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Romaios on April 21, 2013, 10:12:51 AM
I don't tell you that using Jesus from the Greek should be spelled Eeoosous


What's that?!

Yeshua and Yeshu are basically the same spelling but using the equivalent Aramaic letters for Yeshu. Yeshu is the pronunciation used in the west syriac dialect.

The East Syriac pronunciation would be Isho, but the spelling is the same. No "a" vowel at the end. Two syllables, not three. 
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: SolEX01 on April 21, 2013, 10:56:36 AM
You can't do them both. It has to be one or the other. The Passover meal can't be served during Holy Week since we *fast* during Holy Week.

Sure you can. We do it in Church on Holy Thursday.  BTW, fasting is optional in Orthodoxy.

I'm not going to say that you're right other than to say that one can choose to fast or not to fast.  Jesus in the desert had the same choice we did which is why we commemorate the Great Lent which has no analog in Judaism.

http://www.howtofast.net/spiritual/judaism.html (http://www.howtofast.net/spiritual/judaism.html)

Fasting in Orthodoxy is a tool. The Tradition of the Church has always seen fasting as only a tool to combat the passions and to open the door to the renewal of the Holy Spirit: beyond this higher purpose it has no value.

There's no concept of humility.  No self-denial?  No ascetics?  Eat lamb on Holy Thursday (even though sundown Holy Thursday = Holy Friday on the liturgical calendar) because that is the Passover meal?

Who said anything about eating lamb?

Whatever is eaten at the passover meal - beef brisket, turkey, chicken

http://www.jewfaq.org/holidaya.htm (http://www.jewfaq.org/holidaya.htm)

Didn't the children of Israel eat lamb and unleavened bread before the first born of the Egyptians were killed: Exodus 12:21-28

I know what traditional Jews eat at a Passover seder. However, my focus is on what Yeshua did.  It is a new covenant.

Which fulfills the old covenant.
  
"Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband unto them, says the Lord'"

"For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night (at sunset was the start of the fourteenth day of the first month) in which he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat, this is my body, which is broken for you. This do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood. This do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come."

Please cite where you quote Scripture.

It is an important day for me as well as Pascha.  I do not take it lightly and am offended when people here make jest of it.

You want to glorify Christ resurrected or you want to celebrate the Israelites avoiding the angel of death; hence, Passover?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Cyrillic on April 21, 2013, 10:59:32 AM
I don't tell you that using Jesus from the Greek should be spelled Eeoosous


What's that?!


I have no idea. Probably not Greek, though.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Arachne on April 21, 2013, 11:03:14 AM
I don't tell you that using Jesus from the Greek should be spelled Eeoosous


What's that?!

I have no idea. Probably not Greek, though.

It's hard to wrap one's mind around pronouncing 'e-ee' :P
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on April 21, 2013, 12:41:51 PM
There are some icons that depict a shawl hovering over the saints depicted.  The icon of the Last Supper usually depicts this. 

The drape seen in icons is a symbol that the event depicted in the icon took place indoors. Proper icons use inverse perspective and other means to "uncover" what went on, in ways which are the opposite of earthly realism, to express heavenly and spiritual reality. The Mystical Supper, though it was conducted inside, is not shown in a room with walls which limits it in time and place, but is shown "in the open", as the eternal event that it is. The festooning of the drape in the icon's composition is the motif which tells us that the Supper indeed took place indoors.

Conventional icons of saints do not show the drape, unless it is in a panel of a "life" icon, showing a scene from the saint's life which took place indoors.

 I knew I should've consulted you first!  :)
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Cognomen on April 21, 2013, 01:26:14 PM
This thread and argument is absurd.

The arguments for the name fetish, although apparently persuasive to some who think they've discovered the true traditions, aren't even coherent, much less cogent. 

So the death of St. John is the end of the "authentic" Church and teachings, but that St. John used Christ's Greek name doesn't really factor in.  I'm sure there's some clever messianic answer for that one.

That St. John's disciple, St. Ignatius of Antioch, who adamantly protested this sort of nonsense, is ignored (I've asked about why this is twice and have yet to receive a response).  But apparently selected writings of St. Polycarp and St. Ireneaus (the latter, who lived/wrote considerably later) are used to prove this position.

Plus, there's this little thing in Orthodoxy, that Christ leads and guides the Church.  We may make mistakes and such, but for nearly 2,000 years, the name/festival/Hebrew idolatry has not been a part of Church teachings and practice.  The fulfillment of Hebrew festivals and traditions is (very different).

Don't you think, if this stuff was that important, He would've guided us to it before now, and in a more persuasive manner than some wacky late 20th century Protestant offshoot?

This really is just silliness.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: SolEX01 on April 21, 2013, 01:50:46 PM
St. Ignatius of Antioch:

Quote
Chapter X.—Beware of Judaizing.

Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity.695 For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven, and be ye changed into the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be ye salted in Him, lest any one among you should be corrupted, since by your savour ye shall be convicted. It is absurd to profess696 Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace697 Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believeth might be gathered together to God.

Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be. For “if Thou, Lord, shalt mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?”698 Let us therefore prove ourselves worthy of that name which we have received. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, he is not of God; for he has not received the prophecy which speaks thus concerning us: “The people shall be called by a new name, which the Lord shall name them, and shall be a holy people.”699 This was first fulfilled in Syria; for “the disciples were called Christians at Antioch,”700 when Paul and Peter were laying the foundations of the Church. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the corrupt leaven,701 and be ye changed into the new leaven of grace. Abide in Christ, that the stranger702 may not have dominion over you. It is absurd to speak of Jesus Christ with the tongue, and to cherish in the mind a Judaism which has now come to an end. For where there is Christianity there cannot be Judaism. For Christ is one, in whom every nation that believes, and every tongue that confesses, is gathered unto God. And those that were of a stony heart have become the children of Abraham, the friend of God;703 and in his seed all those have been blessed704 who were ordained to eternal life705 in Christ.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.iii.x.html (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.iii.x.html)

Also:

Quote
Chapter VI.—Do not accept Judaism.
But if any one preach the Jewish law923 unto you, listen not to him. For it is better to hearken to Christian doctrine from a man who has been circumcised, than to Judaism from one uncircumcised. But if either of such persons do not speak concerning Jesus Christ, they are in my judgment but as monuments and sepulchres of the dead, upon which are written only the names of men. Flee therefore the wicked devices and snares of the prince 83 of this world, lest at any time being conquered924 by his artifices,925 ye grow weak in your love. But be ye all joined together926 with an undivided heart. And I thank my God that I have a good conscience in respect to you, and that no one has it in his power to boast, either privately or publicly, that I have burdened927 any one either in much or in little. And I wish for all among whom I have spoken, that they may not possess that for a testimony against them.

If any one preaches the one God of the law and the prophets, but denies Christ to be the Son of God, he is a liar, even as also is his father the devil,928 and is a Jew falsely so called, being possessed of929 mere carnal circumcision. If any one confesses Christ Jesus the Lord, but denies the God of the law and of the prophets, saying that the Father of Christ is not the Maker of heaven and earth, he has not continued in the truth any more than his father the devil,930 and is a disciple of Simon Magus, not of the Holy Spirit. If any one says there is one God, and also confesses Christ Jesus, but thinks the Lord to be a mere man, and not the only-begotten931 God, and Wisdom, and the Word of God, and deems Him to consist merely of a soul and body, such an one is a serpent, that preaches deceit and error for the destruction of men. And such a man is poor in understanding, even as by name he is an Ebionite.932 If any one confesses the truths mentioned,933 but calls lawful wedlock, and the procreation of children, destruction and pollution, or deems certain kinds of food abominable, such an one has the apostate dragon dwelling within him. If any one confesses the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost, and praises the creation, but calls the incarnation merely an appearance, and is ashamed of the passion, such an one has denied the faith, not less than the Jews who killed Christ. If any one confesses these things, and that God the Word did dwell in a human body, being within it as the Word, even as the soul also is in the body, because it was God that inhabited it, and not a human soul, but affirms that unlawful unions are a good thing, and places the highest happiness934 in pleasure, as does the man who is falsely called a Nicolaitan, this person can neither be a lover of God, nor a lover of Christ, but is a corrupter of his own flesh, and therefore void of the Holy Spirit, and a stranger to Christ. All such persons are but monuments and sepulchres of the dead, upon which are written only the names of dead men. Flee, therefore, the wicked devices and snares of the spirit which now worketh in the children of this world,935 lest at any time being overcome,936 ye grow weak in your love. But be ye all joined together937 with an undivided heart and a willing mind, “being of one accord and of one judgment,”938 being always of the same opinion about the same things, both when you are at ease and in danger, both in sorrow and in joy. I thank God, through Jesus Christ, that I have a good conscience in respect to you, and that no one has it in his power to boast, either privately or publicly, that I have burdened any one either in much or in little. And I wish for all among whom I have spoken, that they may not possess that for a testimony against them.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.vi.vi.html (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.vi.vi.html)
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 21, 2013, 07:52:53 PM
This thread and argument is absurd.

The arguments for the name fetish, although apparently persuasive to some who think they've discovered the true traditions, aren't even coherent, much less cogent.  

So the death of St. John is the end of the "authentic" Church and teachings, but that St. John used Christ's Greek name doesn't really factor in.  I'm sure there's some clever messianic answer for that one.

That St. John's disciple, St. Ignatius of Antioch, who adamantly protested this sort of nonsense, is ignored (I've asked about why this is twice and have yet to receive a response).  But apparently selected writings of St. Polycarp and St. Ireneaus (the latter, who lived/wrote considerably later) are used to prove this position.

Plus, there's this little thing in Orthodoxy, that Christ leads and guides the Church.  We may make mistakes and such, but for nearly 2,000 years, the name/festival/Hebrew idolatry has not been a part of Church teachings and practice.  The fulfillment of Hebrew festivals and traditions is (very different).

Don't you think, if this stuff was that important, He would've guided us to it before now, and in a more persuasive manner than some wacky late 20th century Protestant offshoot?

This really is just silliness.

I have to laugh at what you wrote. I swear you have not read ANY of what I wrote. You have some fantasy in your head.  The fulfillment of Hebrew festivals WAS MY POINT! Why would St John use His Greek name? You think that because "Jesus" is in the English bible and Iesus is in a Greek manuscript that he used his Greek name? What was written on the cross? Latin, Greek and Hebrew.  Jesus was a Jew as was John. They likely knew Greek and maybe Latin since those were used also.  I never said that some Church Fathers did not disagree with others. They DID. My point was that it is well known that St John as well as Polycarp and many others at that time, you would call heretics and Quartodecimens.  So some did while others did not, yet they are all still considered Church Fathers. So if you choose one side or the other it makes you a hypocrite.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 21, 2013, 08:01:21 PM
 [/quote]

You want to glorify Christ resurrected or you want to celebrate the Israelites avoiding the angel of death; hence, Passover?
[/quote]

I guess I have to explain this again the 1000th time.  PASSOVER....when JESUS DIED...was also when the Jews avoided the angel of death.  I do what Jesus said to...to remember His death on THAT DAY.  Christ did not resurrect ON THAT DAY. He resurrected 3 days LATER on PASCHA.  Do you get it yet????????????
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 21, 2013, 08:06:35 PM
Actually Yeshua it is a shortening and later form of Yehoshua used during the 2nd Temple period. The name Yeshu is unknown in archeological sources and inscriptions. 

There were 24  ossuaries found inscribed with Yeshuas and Yehoshuas. None of the others have Yeshu (Shanks and Witherington 2003)

Of course you know, Aramaic/Hebrew inscriptions have no vowels. Aramaic/Hebrew names would only end in "s" if they were transcribed in Greek. Even so, the ones you quote sound like funny (phoney) reconstructions (no s ending in Semitic languages; no sh grapheme in Greek). The earliest Greek sources unanimously transcribe the name as Ἰησοῦς. There's no reason why they would have altered the name to leave that "a" out. The only logical conclusion is that it wasn't there to begin with. 

Moreover, none of those ossuaries contains the bones of Our Lord and probably very few if any belong to Galilean peasants.   

I made that PLURAL because there were more than one Yeshua and more that one Yehoshua named on the ossuaries.  Yeshua was not an uncommon name in that period. 
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: SolEX01 on April 21, 2013, 08:48:47 PM
I guess I have to explain this again the 1000th time.  PASSOVER....when JESUS DIED...was also when the Jews avoided the angel of death.

The first born of the Virgin was sacrificed on the cross for our sins.  The old covenant was abolished, fulfilled, completed.  IT IS FINISHED said Christ from the Cross.  No more seders, no more circumcisions, no more Shavuot, no more Yom Kippur or Rosh Hashanah.  Yet, for the Jews who didn't accept Jesus as Messiah, it was business as usual for them until the Romans ended things in 70 AD, just as Christ predicted.  Yet, the Jews became more hardened as they spread throughout the world along with Christianity.

I do what Jesus said to...to remember His death on THAT DAY.  Christ did not resurrect ON THAT DAY. He resurrected 3 days LATER on PASCHA.  Do you get it yet????????????

What don't I get?  Syncretism?   ???
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 22, 2013, 07:46:18 AM
I guess I have to explain this again the 1000th time.  PASSOVER....when JESUS DIED...was also when the Jews avoided the angel of death.

The first born of the Virgin was sacrificed on the cross for our sins.  The old covenant was abolished, fulfilled, completed.  IT IS FINISHED said Christ from the Cross.  No more seders, no more circumcisions, no more Shavuot, no more Yom Kippur or Rosh Hashanah.  Yet, for the Jews who didn't accept Jesus as Messiah, it was business as usual for them until the Romans ended things in 70 AD, just as Christ predicted.  Yet, the Jews became more hardened as they spread throughout the world along with Christianity.

I do what Jesus said to...to remember His death on THAT DAY.  Christ did not resurrect ON THAT DAY. He resurrected 3 days LATER on PASCHA.  Do you get it yet????????????

What don't I get?  Syncretism?   ???

Syncretism...I have to laugh! It seems you refuse to even acknowledge that Jesus was even Jewish LOL! I remember telling an old time Russian Matushka that Jesus was Jewish. She says back to me...no he was not, he was Christian! God revealed his plan through the Jewish Holy days...that were DIRECTLY fulfilled by Christ. Take you blinders off...NOTHING I have written above is not true.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: TheTrisagion on April 22, 2013, 10:56:39 AM
I'm interested Yeshua in understanding a bit more of where your coming from.  What are your thoughts on the veneration of icons?  Do you feel that is an acceptable practice?  I must say, I've never met a Judaic Orthodox Christian, so I'm interested in understanding how it works, practically speaking.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 22, 2013, 12:43:49 PM
I'm interested Yeshua in understanding a bit more of where your coming from.  What are your thoughts on the veneration of icons?  Do you feel that is an acceptable practice?  I must say, I've never met a Judaic Orthodox Christian, so I'm interested in understanding how it works, practically speaking.

Worship and veneration are 2 different things. As long as one understands that they are artistic depictions (which ever since time began humans have used to tell stories) and you are showing respect for the person depicted I feel it is fine. I actually have Ethiopian icons here that I am fond off. Yeshua came as a human. However I do not like when I see icons depict The Father. 
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: TheTrisagion on April 22, 2013, 01:37:10 PM
I'm interested Yeshua in understanding a bit more of where your coming from.  What are your thoughts on the veneration of icons?  Do you feel that is an acceptable practice?  I must say, I've never met a Judaic Orthodox Christian, so I'm interested in understanding how it works, practically speaking.

Worship and veneration are 2 different things. As long as one understands that they are artistic depictions (which ever since time began humans have used to tell stories) and you are showing respect for the person depicted I feel it is fine. I actually have Ethiopian icons here that I am fond off. Yeshua came as a human. However I do not like when I see icons depict The Father. 

Interesting.  Thanks.  Do you follow the dietary and other requirements set forth in the Torah or are you no longer bound by those? 
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 22, 2013, 01:57:55 PM
I'm interested Yeshua in understanding a bit more of where your coming from.  What are your thoughts on the veneration of icons?  Do you feel that is an acceptable practice?  I must say, I've never met a Judaic Orthodox Christian, so I'm interested in understanding how it works, practically speaking.

Worship and veneration are 2 different things. As long as one understands that they are artistic depictions (which ever since time began humans have used to tell stories) and you are showing respect for the person depicted I feel it is fine. I actually have Ethiopian icons here that I am fond off. Yeshua came as a human. However I do not like when I see icons depict The Father. 

Interesting.  Thanks.  Do you follow the dietary and other requirements set forth in the Torah or are you no longer bound by those? 

It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles, but what comes forth from the mouth that defiles.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Marc1152 on April 22, 2013, 08:55:21 PM
I'm interested Yeshua in understanding a bit more of where your coming from.  What are your thoughts on the veneration of icons?  Do you feel that is an acceptable practice?  I must say, I've never met a Judaic Orthodox Christian, so I'm interested in understanding how it works, practically speaking.

Worship and veneration are 2 different things. As long as one understands that they are artistic depictions (which ever since time began humans have used to tell stories) and you are showing respect for the person depicted I feel it is fine. I actually have Ethiopian icons here that I am fond off. Yeshua came as a human. However I do not like when I see icons depict The Father. 

Interesting.  Thanks.  Do you follow the dietary and other requirements set forth in the Torah or are you no longer bound by those? 

It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles, but what comes forth from the mouth that defiles.

So do you just follow those requirements that are  within your personal comfort zone?

I worked in a Glut Kosher restaurant for a couple of years... Keeping kosher is rather demanding.

Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: SolEX01 on April 22, 2013, 10:31:09 PM
I guess I have to explain this again the 1000th time.  PASSOVER....when JESUS DIED...was also when the Jews avoided the angel of death.

The first born of the Virgin was sacrificed on the cross for our sins.  The old covenant was abolished, fulfilled, completed.  IT IS FINISHED said Christ from the Cross.  No more seders, no more circumcisions, no more Shavuot, no more Yom Kippur or Rosh Hashanah.  Yet, for the Jews who didn't accept Jesus as Messiah, it was business as usual for them until the Romans ended things in 70 AD, just as Christ predicted.  Yet, the Jews became more hardened as they spread throughout the world along with Christianity.

I do what Jesus said to...to remember His death on THAT DAY.  Christ did not resurrect ON THAT DAY. He resurrected 3 days LATER on PASCHA.  Do you get it yet????????????

What don't I get?  Syncretism?   ???

Syncretism...I have to laugh! It seems you refuse to even acknowledge that Jesus was even Jewish LOL!

Jesus was a Jew.  Only a Jew descended from King David could fulfill the old covenant.  Once that old covenant was fulfilled, only those who rejected the new covenant continue to celebrate the old covenant holidays and feasts?

I remember telling an old time Russian Matushka that Jesus was Jewish. She says back to me...no he was not, he was Christian!

Ask the same question to someone in your church under the EP?  Better yet, ask your Priest.

God revealed his plan through the Jewish Holy days...that were DIRECTLY fulfilled by Christ. Take you blinders off...NOTHING I have written above is not true.

Only in your eyes it is true.  What you say is false according to St. Ignatius of Antioch.

Since Jews continue to celebrate the holidays of the old covenant, why don't they believe in Christ and react with anger when Christ is mentioned?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 23, 2013, 07:31:31 AM



Jesus was a Jew.  Only a Jew descended from King David could fulfill the old covenant.  Once that old covenant was fulfilled, only those who rejected the new covenant continue to celebrate the old covenant holidays and feasts?

God revealed his plan through the Jewish Holy days...that were DIRECTLY fulfilled by Christ. Take you blinders off...NOTHING I have written above is not true.

Only in your eyes it is true.  What you say is false according to St. Ignatius of Antioch.

Since Jews continue to celebrate the holidays of the old covenant, why don't they believe in Christ and react with anger when Christ is mentioned?
[/quote]
BECAUSE THEY DON'T BELIEVE YESHUA IS THE MESSIAH.  It is STILL quite obvious that you still don't understand the simple concept that WE DO celebrate the Jewish Feasts, they are just fulfilled in Christ. No Christian can contest the truth in that satatement. I don't know why you just can't understand that.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 23, 2013, 07:33:20 AM
I'm interested Yeshua in understanding a bit more of where your coming from.  What are your thoughts on the veneration of icons?  Do you feel that is an acceptable practice?  I must say, I've never met a Judaic Orthodox Christian, so I'm interested in understanding how it works, practically speaking.

Worship and veneration are 2 different things. As long as one understands that they are artistic depictions (which ever since time began humans have used to tell stories) and you are showing respect for the person depicted I feel it is fine. I actually have Ethiopian icons here that I am fond off. Yeshua came as a human. However I do not like when I see icons depict The Father. 

Interesting.  Thanks.  Do you follow the dietary and other requirements set forth in the Torah or are you no longer bound by those? 

It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles, but what comes forth from the mouth that defiles.

So do you just follow those requirements that are  within your personal comfort zone?

I worked in a Glut Kosher restaurant for a couple of years... Keeping kosher is rather demanding.


MY comfort zone? Did you not just read what I wrote? Those were Yeshua's words.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: SolEX01 on April 23, 2013, 02:32:10 PM
BECAUSE THEY DON'T BELIEVE YESHUA IS THE MESSIAH.

Apparently, neither do you despite your insistence otherwise.

It is STILL quite obvious that you still don't understand the simple concept that WE DO celebrate the Jewish Feasts, they are just fulfilled in Christ.

You haven't explained how Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur are fulfilled in Christ.  The Orthodox ecclesiastical year begins on September 1.  In 2013, Rosh Hashanah starts on sundown 3 days later, on the 4th.  What are Orthodox Christians supposed to commemorate with Rosh Hashanah OR is your focus on the Jewish holidays only on Passover and Shavuot?

No Christian can contest the truth in that satatement. I don't know why you just can't understand that.

Are you part Jewish?  Do you feel some obligation on the Jewish side of your family to continue to celebrate Jewish holidays?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: NicholasMyra on April 23, 2013, 03:03:56 PM
I keep seeing the abbreviated thread title "My mom Gave me a Jew..." when I log on to the forums.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Romaios on April 23, 2013, 03:14:00 PM
I keep seeing the abbreviated thread title "My mom Gave me a Jew..." when I log on to the forums.

Istemen Babaciğim / No quiero madre  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Mo28qGuKhI)  :laugh:

Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: NicholasMyra on April 23, 2013, 03:39:24 PM
I keep seeing the abbreviated thread title "My mom Gave me a Jew..." when I log on to the forums.

Istemen Babaciğim / No quiero madre  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Mo28qGuKhI)  :laugh:


Anthem of the Councils of Toledo!
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 23, 2013, 05:49:58 PM
BECAUSE THEY DON'T BELIEVE YESHUA IS THE MESSIAH.

Apparently, neither do you despite your insistence otherwise.

I have declared it openly to you yet you still want to bare false witness against me.  So who is the one acting like an Orthodox Christian here and who isn't?  I shake the dust from my shoes...Matittyahu 10:14
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: SolEX01 on April 23, 2013, 10:56:35 PM
BECAUSE THEY DON'T BELIEVE YESHUA IS THE MESSIAH.

Apparently, neither do you despite your insistence otherwise.

I have declared it openly to you yet you still want to bare false witness against me.  So who is the one acting like an Orthodox Christian here and who isn't?

I'll keep reminding you that the Passover Seder (which has already been celebrated for 2013) celebrates the miracles that freed the Jewish people from slavery in Egypt.  The matins of Good Friday (if you ever decide to attend and see for yourself), celebrated on the night of Holy Thursday, commemorates the betrayal, trial, torture and execution of Jesus Christ.  At the 15th Antiphon, the following is chanted:

"Today is hung upon the Tree, He Who did hang the land in the midst of the waters. A Crown of thorns crowns Him Who is King of Angels. He is wrapped about with the purple of mockery Who wrapped the Heavens with clouds. He received buffetings Who freed Adam in Jordan. He was transfixed with nails Who is the Bridegroom of the Church. He was pierced with a spear Who is the Son of the Virgin. We worship Thy Passion, O Christ. Show also unto us thy glorious Resurrection."

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith8432 (http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith8432)

I shake the dust from my shoes...Matittyahu 10:14

That's your loss.   :(
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on April 24, 2013, 06:57:17 AM
BECAUSE THEY DON'T BELIEVE YESHUA IS THE MESSIAH.

Apparently, neither do you despite your insistence otherwise.

I have declared it openly to you yet you still want to bare false witness against me.  So who is the one acting like an Orthodox Christian here and who isn't?

I'll keep reminding you that the Passover Seder (which has already been celebrated for 2013) celebrates the miracles that freed the Jewish people from slavery in Egypt.  The matins of Good Friday (if you ever decide to attend and see for yourself), celebrated on the night of Holy Thursday, commemorates the betrayal, trial, torture and execution of Jesus Christ.  At the 15th Antiphon, the following is chanted:

"Today is hung upon the Tree, He Who did hang the land in the midst of the waters. A Crown of thorns crowns Him Who is King of Angels. He is wrapped about with the purple of mockery Who wrapped the Heavens with clouds. He received buffetings Who freed Adam in Jordan. He was transfixed with nails Who is the Bridegroom of the Church. He was pierced with a spear Who is the Son of the Virgin. We worship Thy Passion, O Christ. Show also unto us thy glorious Resurrection."

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith8432 (http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith8432)

I shake the dust from my shoes...Matittyahu 10:14

That's your loss.   :(

Something you should like... http://www.realjewnews.com/
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Cyrillic on April 24, 2013, 08:22:10 AM
*sigh*

Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: TheTrisagion on April 24, 2013, 08:31:40 AM
I just clicked on that link and my work internet told me I was banned from going to racist websites.

I guess I'll be having a chat w/ management soon wanting to know why I'm going to look at objectionable material.  >:(
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Cyrillic on April 24, 2013, 08:42:08 AM
I just clicked on that link and my work internet told me I was banned from going to racist websites.

I guess I'll be having a chat w/ management soon wanting to know why I'm going to look at objectionable material.  >:(

It's Br. Nathanael.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: SolEX01 on April 24, 2013, 02:13:40 PM
BECAUSE THEY DON'T BELIEVE YESHUA IS THE MESSIAH.

Apparently, neither do you despite your insistence otherwise.

I have declared it openly to you yet you still want to bare false witness against me.  So who is the one acting like an Orthodox Christian here and who isn't?

I'll keep reminding you that the Passover Seder (which has already been celebrated for 2013) celebrates the miracles that freed the Jewish people from slavery in Egypt.  The matins of Good Friday (if you ever decide to attend and see for yourself), celebrated on the night of Holy Thursday, commemorates the betrayal, trial, torture and execution of Jesus Christ.  At the 15th Antiphon, the following is chanted:

"Today is hung upon the Tree, He Who did hang the land in the midst of the waters. A Crown of thorns crowns Him Who is King of Angels. He is wrapped about with the purple of mockery Who wrapped the Heavens with clouds. He received buffetings Who freed Adam in Jordan. He was transfixed with nails Who is the Bridegroom of the Church. He was pierced with a spear Who is the Son of the Virgin. We worship Thy Passion, O Christ. Show also unto us thy glorious Resurrection."

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith8432 (http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith8432)

I shake the dust from my shoes...Matittyahu 10:14

That's your loss.   :(

Something you should like... http://www.realjewnews.com/

Brother Nathaniel ... Lord have mercy.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Mockingbird on April 26, 2013, 08:22:05 PM

The Orthodox Church celebrates Pascha on the first Sunday after the full moon of the spring equinox. It can actually be postponed to the next Sunday if it coincides with either Passover or Ramadan.

The Old-calendar paschalion places Easter to the Sunday after the Eastern Orthodox full moon (EOFM) that falls on or after Julian March 21 (which is Gregorian April 3).  The Eastern Orthodox full moon determined from tables drawn up long ago, and is generally around 4 days late.  This year, it is five days late:  your moon is not full until Tuesday, April 30, 2013.

It has nothing to do with the Rabbinic Jewish calendar, and nothing to do with the Islamic calendar.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Marc1152 on May 01, 2013, 10:34:05 AM
I'm interested Yeshua in understanding a bit more of where your coming from.  What are your thoughts on the veneration of icons?  Do you feel that is an acceptable practice?  I must say, I've never met a Judaic Orthodox Christian, so I'm interested in understanding how it works, practically speaking.

Worship and veneration are 2 different things. As long as one understands that they are artistic depictions (which ever since time began humans have used to tell stories) and you are showing respect for the person depicted I feel it is fine. I actually have Ethiopian icons here that I am fond off. Yeshua came as a human. However I do not like when I see icons depict The Father. 

Interesting.  Thanks.  Do you follow the dietary and other requirements set forth in the Torah or are you no longer bound by those? 

It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles, but what comes forth from the mouth that defiles.

So do you just follow those requirements that are  within your personal comfort zone?

I worked in a Glut Kosher restaurant for a couple of years... Keeping kosher is rather demanding.


MY comfort zone? Did you not just read what I wrote? Those were Yeshua's words.

Yes, words which you covalently spun to keep yourself from having to do something difficult like keeping kosher.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 01, 2013, 12:40:40 PM
I'm interested Yeshua in understanding a bit more of where your coming from.  What are your thoughts on the veneration of icons?  Do you feel that is an acceptable practice?  I must say, I've never met a Judaic Orthodox Christian, so I'm interested in understanding how it works, practically speaking.

Worship and veneration are 2 different things. As long as one understands that they are artistic depictions (which ever since time began humans have used to tell stories) and you are showing respect for the person depicted I feel it is fine. I actually have Ethiopian icons here that I am fond off. Yeshua came as a human. However I do not like when I see icons depict The Father. 

Interesting.  Thanks.  Do you follow the dietary and other requirements set forth in the Torah or are you no longer bound by those? 

It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles, but what comes forth from the mouth that defiles.

So do you just follow those requirements that are  within your personal comfort zone?

I worked in a Glut Kosher restaurant for a couple of years... Keeping kosher is rather demanding.


MY comfort zone? Did you not just read what I wrote? Those were Yeshua's words.

Yes, words which you covalently spun to keep yourself from having to do something difficult like keeping kosher.

Oh, I am sorry, I thought you understood what Yeshua meant by that. Were you not paying attention in Sunday school? I have "spun" nothing and you know it. Stop bearing false witness against me.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Marc1152 on May 01, 2013, 01:32:13 PM
I'm interested Yeshua in understanding a bit more of where your coming from.  What are your thoughts on the veneration of icons?  Do you feel that is an acceptable practice?  I must say, I've never met a Judaic Orthodox Christian, so I'm interested in understanding how it works, practically speaking.

Worship and veneration are 2 different things. As long as one understands that they are artistic depictions (which ever since time began humans have used to tell stories) and you are showing respect for the person depicted I feel it is fine. I actually have Ethiopian icons here that I am fond off. Yeshua came as a human. However I do not like when I see icons depict The Father. 

Interesting.  Thanks.  Do you follow the dietary and other requirements set forth in the Torah or are you no longer bound by those? 

It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles, but what comes forth from the mouth that defiles.

So do you just follow those requirements that are  within your personal comfort zone?

I worked in a Glut Kosher restaurant for a couple of years... Keeping kosher is rather demanding.


MY comfort zone? Did you not just read what I wrote? Those were Yeshua's words.

Yes, words which you covalently spun to keep yourself from having to do something difficult like keeping kosher.

Oh, I am sorry, I thought you understood what Yeshua meant by that. Were you not paying attention in Sunday school? I have "spun" nothing and you know it. Stop bearing false witness against me.

I see, so you sometimes base you pratices on what the Church has taught and sometimes not.

FYI..The Chuch kept a few dietary practices at first and then eventually let go of those as well..

So how do you decide when to listen to the interpretations and decisions of The Church and when not too? It sounds like a matter of your personal convenience to me.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 01, 2013, 01:39:56 PM
I'm interested Yeshua in understanding a bit more of where your coming from.  What are your thoughts on the veneration of icons?  Do you feel that is an acceptable practice?  I must say, I've never met a Judaic Orthodox Christian, so I'm interested in understanding how it works, practically speaking.

Worship and veneration are 2 different things. As long as one understands that they are artistic depictions (which ever since time began humans have used to tell stories) and you are showing respect for the person depicted I feel it is fine. I actually have Ethiopian icons here that I am fond off. Yeshua came as a human. However I do not like when I see icons depict The Father. 

Interesting.  Thanks.  Do you follow the dietary and other requirements set forth in the Torah or are you no longer bound by those? 

It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles, but what comes forth from the mouth that defiles.

So do you just follow those requirements that are  within your personal comfort zone?

I worked in a Glut Kosher restaurant for a couple of years... Keeping kosher is rather demanding.


MY comfort zone? Did you not just read what I wrote? Those were Yeshua's words.

Yes, words which you covalently spun to keep yourself from having to do something difficult like keeping kosher.

Oh, I am sorry, I thought you understood what Yeshua meant by that. Were you not paying attention in Sunday school? I have "spun" nothing and you know it. Stop bearing false witness against me.

I see, so you sometimes base you pratices on what the Church has taught and sometimes not.

FYI..The Chuch kept a few dietary practices at first and then eventually let go of those as well..

So how do you decide when to listen to the interpretations and decisions of The Church and when not too? It sounds like a matter of your personal convenience to me.

Like what, fasting days? None of what you are talking about is salvatical so what is your point?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Marc1152 on May 01, 2013, 01:50:46 PM
I'm interested Yeshua in understanding a bit more of where your coming from.  What are your thoughts on the veneration of icons?  Do you feel that is an acceptable practice?  I must say, I've never met a Judaic Orthodox Christian, so I'm interested in understanding how it works, practically speaking.

Worship and veneration are 2 different things. As long as one understands that they are artistic depictions (which ever since time began humans have used to tell stories) and you are showing respect for the person depicted I feel it is fine. I actually have Ethiopian icons here that I am fond off. Yeshua came as a human. However I do not like when I see icons depict The Father.  

Interesting.  Thanks.  Do you follow the dietary and other requirements set forth in the Torah or are you no longer bound by those?  

It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles, but what comes forth from the mouth that defiles.

So do you just follow those requirements that are  within your personal comfort zone?

I worked in a Glut Kosher restaurant for a couple of years... Keeping kosher is rather demanding.


MY comfort zone? Did you not just read what I wrote? Those were Yeshua's words.

Yes, words which you covalently spun to keep yourself from having to do something difficult like keeping kosher.

Oh, I am sorry, I thought you understood what Yeshua meant by that. Were you not paying attention in Sunday school? I have "spun" nothing and you know it. Stop bearing false witness against me.

I see, so you sometimes base you pratices on what the Church has taught and sometimes not.

FYI..The Chuch kept a few dietary practices at first and then eventually let go of those as well..

So how do you decide when to listen to the interpretations and decisions of The Church and when not too? It sounds like a matter of your personal convenience to me.

Like what, fasting days? None of what you are talking about is salvatical so what is your point?

You like the decision of the Church, based of the sayings of The Lord to drop the dietary rules ( most of them, not all). You probably adhere to several doctrines decided by The Church such as the Trinity and the Identiy of Christ as God etc. But you put aside other decisions like the Jewish Feasts and Holy Days are no longer to be followed..


So it seems you are rudderless. It looks like you pick and chose. It looks to me like you have made yourself into an authority when you have no authority to decide such things. It apears like the worst sort of dilettantism.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 01, 2013, 01:56:00 PM
I'm interested Yeshua in understanding a bit more of where your coming from.  What are your thoughts on the veneration of icons?  Do you feel that is an acceptable practice?  I must say, I've never met a Judaic Orthodox Christian, so I'm interested in understanding how it works, practically speaking.

Worship and veneration are 2 different things. As long as one understands that they are artistic depictions (which ever since time began humans have used to tell stories) and you are showing respect for the person depicted I feel it is fine. I actually have Ethiopian icons here that I am fond off. Yeshua came as a human. However I do not like when I see icons depict The Father.  

Interesting.  Thanks.  Do you follow the dietary and other requirements set forth in the Torah or are you no longer bound by those?  

It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles, but what comes forth from the mouth that defiles.

So do you just follow those requirements that are  within your personal comfort zone?

I worked in a Glut Kosher restaurant for a couple of years... Keeping kosher is rather demanding.


MY comfort zone? Did you not just read what I wrote? Those were Yeshua's words.

Yes, words which you covalently spun to keep yourself from having to do something difficult like keeping kosher.

Oh, I am sorry, I thought you understood what Yeshua meant by that. Were you not paying attention in Sunday school? I have "spun" nothing and you know it. Stop bearing false witness against me.

I see, so you sometimes base you pratices on what the Church has taught and sometimes not.

FYI..The Chuch kept a few dietary practices at first and then eventually let go of those as well..

So how do you decide when to listen to the interpretations and decisions of The Church and when not too? It sounds like a matter of your personal convenience to me.

Like what, fasting days? None of what you are talking about is salvatical so what is your point?

You like the decision of the Church, based of the sayings of The Lord to drop the dietary rules ( most of them, not all). You probably adhere to several doctrines decided by The Church such as the Trinity and the Identiy of Christ as God etc. But you put aside other decisions like the Jewish Feasts and Holy Days are no longer to be followed..


So it seems you are rudderless. It looks like you pick and chose. It looks to me like you have made yourself into an authority when you have no authority to decide such things. It apears like the worst sort of dilettantism.

I am not rudderless at all! Just because Nicea or others "codified" them does not mean they were not followed or believed much earlier! Of course The Trinity was believed in. We DO still follow them, you and I just call them by different names!
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Marc1152 on May 01, 2013, 02:19:56 PM
I'm interested Yeshua in understanding a bit more of where your coming from.  What are your thoughts on the veneration of icons?  Do you feel that is an acceptable practice?  I must say, I've never met a Judaic Orthodox Christian, so I'm interested in understanding how it works, practically speaking.

Worship and veneration are 2 different things. As long as one understands that they are artistic depictions (which ever since time began humans have used to tell stories) and you are showing respect for the person depicted I feel it is fine. I actually have Ethiopian icons here that I am fond off. Yeshua came as a human. However I do not like when I see icons depict The Father.  

Interesting.  Thanks.  Do you follow the dietary and other requirements set forth in the Torah or are you no longer bound by those?  

It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles, but what comes forth from the mouth that defiles.

So do you just follow those requirements that are  within your personal comfort zone?

I worked in a Glut Kosher restaurant for a couple of years... Keeping kosher is rather demanding.


MY comfort zone? Did you not just read what I wrote? Those were Yeshua's words.

Yes, words which you covalently spun to keep yourself from having to do something difficult like keeping kosher.

Oh, I am sorry, I thought you understood what Yeshua meant by that. Were you not paying attention in Sunday school? I have "spun" nothing and you know it. Stop bearing false witness against me.

I see, so you sometimes base you pratices on what the Church has taught and sometimes not.

FYI..The Chuch kept a few dietary practices at first and then eventually let go of those as well..

So how do you decide when to listen to the interpretations and decisions of The Church and when not too? It sounds like a matter of your personal convenience to me.

Like what, fasting days? None of what you are talking about is salvatical so what is your point?

You like the decision of the Church, based of the sayings of The Lord to drop the dietary rules ( most of them, not all). You probably adhere to several doctrines decided by The Church such as the Trinity and the Identiy of Christ as God etc. But you put aside other decisions like the Jewish Feasts and Holy Days are no longer to be followed..


So it seems you are rudderless. It looks like you pick and chose. It looks to me like you have made yourself into an authority when you have no authority to decide such things. It apears like the worst sort of dilettantism.

I am not rudderless at all! Just because Nicea or others "codified" them does not mean they were not followed or believed much earlier! Of course The Trinity was believed in. We DO still follow them, you and I just call them by different names!

Sorry, that is incorrect. These issues were in fact hotly debated. Councils were called precisely because there was a big disagreement over central theological idea's. So when do you follow the Church's decisions and when do you decide for yourself.. ?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 01, 2013, 02:22:54 PM
I'm interested Yeshua in understanding a bit more of where your coming from.  What are your thoughts on the veneration of icons?  Do you feel that is an acceptable practice?  I must say, I've never met a Judaic Orthodox Christian, so I'm interested in understanding how it works, practically speaking.

Worship and veneration are 2 different things. As long as one understands that they are artistic depictions (which ever since time began humans have used to tell stories) and you are showing respect for the person depicted I feel it is fine. I actually have Ethiopian icons here that I am fond off. Yeshua came as a human. However I do not like when I see icons depict The Father.  

Interesting.  Thanks.  Do you follow the dietary and other requirements set forth in the Torah or are you no longer bound by those?  

It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles, but what comes forth from the mouth that defiles.

So do you just follow those requirements that are  within your personal comfort zone?

I worked in a Glut Kosher restaurant for a couple of years... Keeping kosher is rather demanding.


MY comfort zone? Did you not just read what I wrote? Those were Yeshua's words.

Yes, words which you covalently spun to keep yourself from having to do something difficult like keeping kosher.

Oh, I am sorry, I thought you understood what Yeshua meant by that. Were you not paying attention in Sunday school? I have "spun" nothing and you know it. Stop bearing false witness against me.

I see, so you sometimes base you pratices on what the Church has taught and sometimes not.

FYI..The Chuch kept a few dietary practices at first and then eventually let go of those as well..

So how do you decide when to listen to the interpretations and decisions of The Church and when not too? It sounds like a matter of your personal convenience to me.

Like what, fasting days? None of what you are talking about is salvatical so what is your point?

You like the decision of the Church, based of the sayings of The Lord to drop the dietary rules ( most of them, not all). You probably adhere to several doctrines decided by The Church such as the Trinity and the Identiy of Christ as God etc. But you put aside other decisions like the Jewish Feasts and Holy Days are no longer to be followed..


So it seems you are rudderless. It looks like you pick and chose. It looks to me like you have made yourself into an authority when you have no authority to decide such things. It apears like the worst sort of dilettantism.

I am not rudderless at all! Just because Nicea or others "codified" them does not mean they were not followed or believed much earlier! Of course The Trinity was believed in. We DO still follow them, you and I just call them by different names!

Sorry, that is incorrect. These issues were in fact hotly debated. Councils were called precisely because there was a big disagreement over central theological idea's. So when do you follow the Church's decisions and when do you decide for yourself.. ?

Can you give me an example of what you mean?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Marc1152 on May 01, 2013, 03:15:07 PM
I'm interested Yeshua in understanding a bit more of where your coming from.  What are your thoughts on the veneration of icons?  Do you feel that is an acceptable practice?  I must say, I've never met a Judaic Orthodox Christian, so I'm interested in understanding how it works, practically speaking.

Worship and veneration are 2 different things. As long as one understands that they are artistic depictions (which ever since time began humans have used to tell stories) and you are showing respect for the person depicted I feel it is fine. I actually have Ethiopian icons here that I am fond off. Yeshua came as a human. However I do not like when I see icons depict The Father.  

Interesting.  Thanks.  Do you follow the dietary and other requirements set forth in the Torah or are you no longer bound by those?  

It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles, but what comes forth from the mouth that defiles.

So do you just follow those requirements that are  within your personal comfort zone?

I worked in a Glut Kosher restaurant for a couple of years... Keeping kosher is rather demanding.


MY comfort zone? Did you not just read what I wrote? Those were Yeshua's words.

Yes, words which you covalently spun to keep yourself from having to do something difficult like keeping kosher.

Oh, I am sorry, I thought you understood what Yeshua meant by that. Were you not paying attention in Sunday school? I have "spun" nothing and you know it. Stop bearing false witness against me.

I see, so you sometimes base you pratices on what the Church has taught and sometimes not.

FYI..The Chuch kept a few dietary practices at first and then eventually let go of those as well..

So how do you decide when to listen to the interpretations and decisions of The Church and when not too? It sounds like a matter of your personal convenience to me.

Like what, fasting days? None of what you are talking about is salvatical so what is your point?

You like the decision of the Church, based of the sayings of The Lord to drop the dietary rules ( most of them, not all). You probably adhere to several doctrines decided by The Church such as the Trinity and the Identiy of Christ as God etc. But you put aside other decisions like the Jewish Feasts and Holy Days are no longer to be followed..


So it seems you are rudderless. It looks like you pick and chose. It looks to me like you have made yourself into an authority when you have no authority to decide such things. It apears like the worst sort of dilettantism.

I am not rudderless at all! Just because Nicea or others "codified" them does not mean they were not followed or believed much earlier! Of course The Trinity was believed in. We DO still follow them, you and I just call them by different names!

Sorry, that is incorrect. These issues were in fact hotly debated. Councils were called precisely because there was a big disagreement over central theological idea's. So when do you follow the Church's decisions and when do you decide for yourself.. ?

Can you give me an example of what you mean?

Sure..a faction arose within the Church that condemned the use of Icons. They could make a case directly from scripture ( which nearly all heresies can do). Icons were destroyed, there was violence. Eventually the Church called a Council and decided the matter.. Icons were to be used.

Councils were not called to decide what everyone already knew was true. The opposite is the case. The very spiritual identity of Christ was subject to several theories. Have you not heard of Arius or Nestorius? Councils were called to settle the confusion in a manner blessed by God precisely because it was THE Church itself speaking and coming to a judgement.

The Church has long condemned Judaizing. It is a pernicious heresy.. This would a fine time of year to repent and drop it.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 01, 2013, 03:22:10 PM
I'm interested Yeshua in understanding a bit more of where your coming from.  What are your thoughts on the veneration of icons?  Do you feel that is an acceptable practice?  I must say, I've never met a Judaic Orthodox Christian, so I'm interested in understanding how it works, practically speaking.

Worship and veneration are 2 different things. As long as one understands that they are artistic depictions (which ever since time began humans have used to tell stories) and you are showing respect for the person depicted I feel it is fine. I actually have Ethiopian icons here that I am fond off. Yeshua came as a human. However I do not like when I see icons depict The Father.  

Interesting.  Thanks.  Do you follow the dietary and other requirements set forth in the Torah or are you no longer bound by those?  

It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles, but what comes forth from the mouth that defiles.

So do you just follow those requirements that are  within your personal comfort zone?

I worked in a Glut Kosher restaurant for a couple of years... Keeping kosher is rather demanding.


MY comfort zone? Did you not just read what I wrote? Those were Yeshua's words.

Yes, words which you covalently spun to keep yourself from having to do something difficult like keeping kosher.

Oh, I am sorry, I thought you understood what Yeshua meant by that. Were you not paying attention in Sunday school? I have "spun" nothing and you know it. Stop bearing false witness against me.

I see, so you sometimes base you pratices on what the Church has taught and sometimes not.

FYI..The Chuch kept a few dietary practices at first and then eventually let go of those as well..

So how do you decide when to listen to the interpretations and decisions of The Church and when not too? It sounds like a matter of your personal convenience to me.

Like what, fasting days? None of what you are talking about is salvatical so what is your point?

You like the decision of the Church, based of the sayings of The Lord to drop the dietary rules ( most of them, not all). You probably adhere to several doctrines decided by The Church such as the Trinity and the Identiy of Christ as God etc. But you put aside other decisions like the Jewish Feasts and Holy Days are no longer to be followed..


So it seems you are rudderless. It looks like you pick and chose. It looks to me like you have made yourself into an authority when you have no authority to decide such things. It apears like the worst sort of dilettantism.

I am not rudderless at all! Just because Nicea or others "codified" them does not mean they were not followed or believed much earlier! Of course The Trinity was believed in. We DO still follow them, you and I just call them by different names!

Sorry, that is incorrect. These issues were in fact hotly debated. Councils were called precisely because there was a big disagreement over central theological idea's. So when do you follow the Church's decisions and when do you decide for yourself.. ?

Can you give me an example of what you mean?

Sure..a faction arose within the Church that condemned the use of Icons. They could make a case directly from scripture ( which nearly all heresies can do). Icons were destroyed, there was violence. Eventually the Church called a Council and decided the matter.. Icons were to be used.

Councils were not called to decide what everyone already knew was true. The opposite is the case. The very spiritual identity of Christ was subject to several theories. Have you not heard of Arius or Nestorius? Councils were called to settle the confusion in a manner blessed by God precisely because it was THE Church itself speaking and coming to a judgement.

The Church has long condemned Judaizing. It is a pernicious heresy.. This would a fine time of year to repent and drop it.

Again, Icons are not salvatical. They are tools like fasting. Councils were called when what everyone already knew were perverted in some way. The early church knew there was a Trinity, however, some sought to pervert it. What YOU "think" is Judaising is likely not if you understood things.  If I dropped what I believe true I would not be a Christian nor Orthodox...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Marc1152 on May 01, 2013, 03:34:44 PM
I'm interested Yeshua in understanding a bit more of where your coming from.  What are your thoughts on the veneration of icons?  Do you feel that is an acceptable practice?  I must say, I've never met a Judaic Orthodox Christian, so I'm interested in understanding how it works, practically speaking.

Worship and veneration are 2 different things. As long as one understands that they are artistic depictions (which ever since time began humans have used to tell stories) and you are showing respect for the person depicted I feel it is fine. I actually have Ethiopian icons here that I am fond off. Yeshua came as a human. However I do not like when I see icons depict The Father.  

Interesting.  Thanks.  Do you follow the dietary and other requirements set forth in the Torah or are you no longer bound by those?  

It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles, but what comes forth from the mouth that defiles.

So do you just follow those requirements that are  within your personal comfort zone?

I worked in a Glut Kosher restaurant for a couple of years... Keeping kosher is rather demanding.


MY comfort zone? Did you not just read what I wrote? Those were Yeshua's words.

Yes, words which you covalently spun to keep yourself from having to do something difficult like keeping kosher.

Oh, I am sorry, I thought you understood what Yeshua meant by that. Were you not paying attention in Sunday school? I have "spun" nothing and you know it. Stop bearing false witness against me.

I see, so you sometimes base you pratices on what the Church has taught and sometimes not.

FYI..The Chuch kept a few dietary practices at first and then eventually let go of those as well..

So how do you decide when to listen to the interpretations and decisions of The Church and when not too? It sounds like a matter of your personal convenience to me.

Like what, fasting days? None of what you are talking about is salvatical so what is your point?

You like the decision of the Church, based of the sayings of The Lord to drop the dietary rules ( most of them, not all). You probably adhere to several doctrines decided by The Church such as the Trinity and the Identiy of Christ as God etc. But you put aside other decisions like the Jewish Feasts and Holy Days are no longer to be followed..


So it seems you are rudderless. It looks like you pick and chose. It looks to me like you have made yourself into an authority when you have no authority to decide such things. It apears like the worst sort of dilettantism.

I am not rudderless at all! Just because Nicea or others "codified" them does not mean they were not followed or believed much earlier! Of course The Trinity was believed in. We DO still follow them, you and I just call them by different names!

Sorry, that is incorrect. These issues were in fact hotly debated. Councils were called precisely because there was a big disagreement over central theological idea's. So when do you follow the Church's decisions and when do you decide for yourself.. ?

Can you give me an example of what you mean?

Sure..a faction arose within the Church that condemned the use of Icons. They could make a case directly from scripture ( which nearly all heresies can do). Icons were destroyed, there was violence. Eventually the Church called a Council and decided the matter.. Icons were to be used.

Councils were not called to decide what everyone already knew was true. The opposite is the case. The very spiritual identity of Christ was subject to several theories. Have you not heard of Arius or Nestorius? Councils were called to settle the confusion in a manner blessed by God precisely because it was THE Church itself speaking and coming to a judgement.

The Church has long condemned Judaizing. It is a pernicious heresy.. This would a fine time of year to repent and drop it.

Again, Icons are not salvatical. They are tools like fasting. Councils were called when what everyone already knew were perverted in some way. The early church knew there was a Trinity, however, some sought to pervert it. What YOU "think" is Judaising is likely not if you understood things.  If I dropped what I believe true I would not be a Christian nor Orthodox...

People were confused about the Spiritual identity of Christ. And many sided with Arius. The Church decided the issue. You reject the Church and decide things for yourself.

Who are you again?

If you dropped your false idea's you say you would not be a Christian.. I rest my case. You have been poisoned by heresy and if torn from it you would lose your faith. That is predictable.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 01, 2013, 05:53:32 PM
I'm interested Yeshua in understanding a bit more of where your coming from.  What are your thoughts on the veneration of icons?  Do you feel that is an acceptable practice?  I must say, I've never met a Judaic Orthodox Christian, so I'm interested in understanding how it works, practically speaking.

Worship and veneration are 2 different things. As long as one understands that they are artistic depictions (which ever since time began humans have used to tell stories) and you are showing respect for the person depicted I feel it is fine. I actually have Ethiopian icons here that I am fond off. Yeshua came as a human. However I do not like when I see icons depict The Father.  

Interesting.  Thanks.  Do you follow the dietary and other requirements set forth in the Torah or are you no longer bound by those?  

It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles, but what comes forth from the mouth that defiles.

So do you just follow those requirements that are  within your personal comfort zone?

I worked in a Glut Kosher restaurant for a couple of years... Keeping kosher is rather demanding.


MY comfort zone? Did you not just read what I wrote? Those were Yeshua's words.

Yes, words which you covalently spun to keep yourself from having to do something difficult like keeping kosher.

Oh, I am sorry, I thought you understood what Yeshua meant by that. Were you not paying attention in Sunday school? I have "spun" nothing and you know it. Stop bearing false witness against me.

I see, so you sometimes base you pratices on what the Church has taught and sometimes not.

FYI..The Chuch kept a few dietary practices at first and then eventually let go of those as well..

So how do you decide when to listen to the interpretations and decisions of The Church and when not too? It sounds like a matter of your personal convenience to me.

Like what, fasting days? None of what you are talking about is salvatical so what is your point?

You like the decision of the Church, based of the sayings of The Lord to drop the dietary rules ( most of them, not all). You probably adhere to several doctrines decided by The Church such as the Trinity and the Identiy of Christ as God etc. But you put aside other decisions like the Jewish Feasts and Holy Days are no longer to be followed..


So it seems you are rudderless. It looks like you pick and chose. It looks to me like you have made yourself into an authority when you have no authority to decide such things. It apears like the worst sort of dilettantism.

I am not rudderless at all! Just because Nicea or others "codified" them does not mean they were not followed or believed much earlier! Of course The Trinity was believed in. We DO still follow them, you and I just call them by different names!

Sorry, that is incorrect. These issues were in fact hotly debated. Councils were called precisely because there was a big disagreement over central theological idea's. So when do you follow the Church's decisions and when do you decide for yourself.. ?

Can you give me an example of what you mean?

Sure..a faction arose within the Church that condemned the use of Icons. They could make a case directly from scripture ( which nearly all heresies can do). Icons were destroyed, there was violence. Eventually the Church called a Council and decided the matter.. Icons were to be used.

Councils were not called to decide what everyone already knew was true. The opposite is the case. The very spiritual identity of Christ was subject to several theories. Have you not heard of Arius or Nestorius? Councils were called to settle the confusion in a manner blessed by God precisely because it was THE Church itself speaking and coming to a judgement.

The Church has long condemned Judaizing. It is a pernicious heresy.. This would a fine time of year to repent and drop it.

Again, Icons are not salvatical. They are tools like fasting. Councils were called when what everyone already knew were perverted in some way. The early church knew there was a Trinity, however, some sought to pervert it. What YOU "think" is Judaising is likely not if you understood things.  If I dropped what I believe true I would not be a Christian nor Orthodox...

People were confused about the Spiritual identity of Christ. And many sided with Arius. The Church decided the issue. You reject the Church and decide things for yourself.

Who are you again?

If you dropped your false idea's you say you would not be a Christian.. I rest my case. You have been poisoned by heresy and if torn from it you would lose your faith. That is predictable.

What false ideas? LOL You have yet to show I have any...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Marc1152 on May 01, 2013, 10:08:31 PM
Judaizing + condemnation of the Church as a heresy = false idea
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 02, 2013, 07:12:42 AM
Judaizing + condemnation of the Church as a heresy = false idea

LOL, really? Looks like the only idea here that is false is YOURS! You are good at accusing yet offer no proof = false witness.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Cyrillic on May 02, 2013, 07:20:50 AM
"What is this disease? The festivals of the pitiful and miserable Jews are soon to march upon us one after the other and in quick succession: the feast of Trumpets, the feast of Tabernacles, the fasts. There are many in our ranks who say they think as we do. Yet some of these are going to watch the festivals and others will join the Jews in keeping their feasts and observing their fasts. I wish to drive this perverse custom from the Church right now." -St. John Chrysostom

So Yeshua HaDerekh, here you have it.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 02, 2013, 11:11:27 AM
"What is this disease? The festivals of the pitiful and miserable Jews are soon to march upon us one after the other and in quick succession: the feast of Trumpets, the feast of Tabernacles, the fasts. There are many in our ranks who say they think as we do. Yet some of these are going to watch the festivals and others will join the Jews in keeping their feasts and observing their fasts. I wish to drive this perverse custom from the Church right now." -St. John Chrysostom

So Yeshua HaDerekh, here you have it.

So there you have what...? That Christians should not celebrate the Jewish fall festivals?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Cyrillic on May 02, 2013, 11:36:39 AM
"What is this disease? The festivals of the pitiful and miserable Jews are soon to march upon us one after the other and in quick succession: the feast of Trumpets, the feast of Tabernacles, the fasts. There are many in our ranks who say they think as we do. Yet some of these are going to watch the festivals and others will join the Jews in keeping their feasts and observing their fasts. I wish to drive this perverse custom from the Church right now." -St. John Chrysostom

So Yeshua HaDerekh, here you have it.

So there you have what...? That Christians should not celebrate the Jewish fall festivals?

Exactly. We should not celebrate the Jewish feasts.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 02, 2013, 11:54:36 AM
"What is this disease? The festivals of the pitiful and miserable Jews are soon to march upon us one after the other and in quick succession: the feast of Trumpets, the feast of Tabernacles, the fasts. There are many in our ranks who say they think as we do. Yet some of these are going to watch the festivals and others will join the Jews in keeping their feasts and observing their fasts. I wish to drive this perverse custom from the Church right now." -St. John Chrysostom

So Yeshua HaDerekh, here you have it.

So there you have what...? That Christians should not celebrate the Jewish fall festivals?

Exactly. We should not celebrate the Jewish feasts.

So who is? The Jews do. However our own were fulfillments of theirs by Christ. As I have said, we would have no Orthodoxy without them. What Chrysostom tends to do is want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: dcommini on May 02, 2013, 12:03:03 PM
"What is this disease? The festivals of the pitiful and miserable Jews are soon to march upon us one after the other and in quick succession: the feast of Trumpets, the feast of Tabernacles, the fasts. There are many in our ranks who say they think as we do. Yet some of these are going to watch the festivals and others will join the Jews in keeping their feasts and observing their fasts. I wish to drive this perverse custom from the Church right now." -St. John Chrysostom

So Yeshua HaDerekh, here you have it.

So there you have what...? That Christians should not celebrate the Jewish fall festivals?

Exactly. We should not celebrate the Jewish feasts.

So who is? The Jews do. However our own were fulfillments of theirs by Christ. As I have said, we would have no Orthodoxy without them. What Chrysostom tends to do is want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

So if a debt was fulfilled would you still pay on it?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Cyrillic on May 02, 2013, 12:12:29 PM
"What is this disease? The festivals of the pitiful and miserable Jews are soon to march upon us one after the other and in quick succession: the feast of Trumpets, the feast of Tabernacles, the fasts. There are many in our ranks who say they think as we do. Yet some of these are going to watch the festivals and others will join the Jews in keeping their feasts and observing their fasts. I wish to drive this perverse custom from the Church right now." -St. John Chrysostom

So Yeshua HaDerekh, here you have it.

So there you have what...? That Christians should not celebrate the Jewish fall festivals?

Exactly. We should not celebrate the Jewish feasts.

So who is?

Nobody should.

The Jews do. However our own were fulfillments of theirs by Christ. As I have said, we would have no Orthodoxy without them. What Chrysostom tends to do is want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

So you know better than St. John Chrysostom? Good to have someone that enlightened on the forum.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 02, 2013, 12:12:36 PM
"What is this disease? The festivals of the pitiful and miserable Jews are soon to march upon us one after the other and in quick succession: the feast of Trumpets, the feast of Tabernacles, the fasts. There are many in our ranks who say they think as we do. Yet some of these are going to watch the festivals and others will join the Jews in keeping their feasts and observing their fasts. I wish to drive this perverse custom from the Church right now." -St. John Chrysostom

So Yeshua HaDerekh, here you have it.

So there you have what...? That Christians should not celebrate the Jewish fall festivals?

Exactly. We should not celebrate the Jewish feasts.

So who is? The Jews do. However our own were fulfillments of theirs by Christ. As I have said, we would have no Orthodoxy without them. What Chrysostom tends to do is want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

So if a debt was fulfilled would you still pay on it?

No but I would still have the original note that says paid in full from the bank it was paid from...  ;)
 
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: dcommini on May 02, 2013, 12:16:17 PM
"What is this disease? The festivals of the pitiful and miserable Jews are soon to march upon us one after the other and in quick succession: the feast of Trumpets, the feast of Tabernacles, the fasts. There are many in our ranks who say they think as we do. Yet some of these are going to watch the festivals and others will join the Jews in keeping their feasts and observing their fasts. I wish to drive this perverse custom from the Church right now." -St. John Chrysostom

So Yeshua HaDerekh, here you have it.

So there you have what...? That Christians should not celebrate the Jewish fall festivals?

Exactly. We should not celebrate the Jewish feasts.

So who is? The Jews do. However our own were fulfillments of theirs by Christ. As I have said, we would have no Orthodoxy without them. What Chrysostom tends to do is want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

So if a debt was fulfilled would you still pay on it?

No but I would still have the original note that says paid in full from the bank it was paid from...  ;)
 

Of course you would keep record of the debt, especially if it was paid in full. But you would not still pay on the debt.

Likewise, the old feasts of the Jews were a precursor for our feasts. Theirs showed a debt, ours shows a debt paid in full. There is no need to keep revisiting the debt. 
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 02, 2013, 12:16:53 PM
"What is this disease? The festivals of the pitiful and miserable Jews are soon to march upon us one after the other and in quick succession: the feast of Trumpets, the feast of Tabernacles, the fasts. There are many in our ranks who say they think as we do. Yet some of these are going to watch the festivals and others will join the Jews in keeping their feasts and observing their fasts. I wish to drive this perverse custom from the Church right now." -St. John Chrysostom

So Yeshua HaDerekh, here you have it.

So there you have what...? That Christians should not celebrate the Jewish fall festivals?

Exactly. We should not celebrate the Jewish feasts.

So who is?

Nobody should.

The Jews do. However our own were fulfillments of theirs by Christ. As I have said, we would have no Orthodoxy without them. What Chrysostom tends to do is want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

So you know better than St. John Chrysostom? Good to have someone that enlightened on the forum.

It is not a question of knowing or not knowing "more than Chrysostom". Rather it is understanding what he wrote within the context it was written. Some have taken it to extremes like Hitler. Would you say Hitler was following it correctly? Would Chrysostom agree with what Hitler did?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 02, 2013, 12:18:19 PM
"What is this disease? The festivals of the pitiful and miserable Jews are soon to march upon us one after the other and in quick succession: the feast of Trumpets, the feast of Tabernacles, the fasts. There are many in our ranks who say they think as we do. Yet some of these are going to watch the festivals and others will join the Jews in keeping their feasts and observing their fasts. I wish to drive this perverse custom from the Church right now." -St. John Chrysostom

So Yeshua HaDerekh, here you have it.

So there you have what...? That Christians should not celebrate the Jewish fall festivals?

Exactly. We should not celebrate the Jewish feasts.

So who is? The Jews do. However our own were fulfillments of theirs by Christ. As I have said, we would have no Orthodoxy without them. What Chrysostom tends to do is want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

So if a debt was fulfilled would you still pay on it?

No but I would still have the original note that says paid in full from the bank it was paid from...  ;)
 

Of course you would keep record of the debt, especially if it was paid in full. But you would not still pay on the debt.

Likewise, the old feasts of the Jews were a precursor for our feasts. Theirs showed a debt, ours shows a debt paid in full. There is no need to keep revisiting the debt. 

So who is?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: dcommini on May 02, 2013, 12:49:02 PM
"What is this disease? The festivals of the pitiful and miserable Jews are soon to march upon us one after the other and in quick succession: the feast of Trumpets, the feast of Tabernacles, the fasts. There are many in our ranks who say they think as we do. Yet some of these are going to watch the festivals and others will join the Jews in keeping their feasts and observing their fasts. I wish to drive this perverse custom from the Church right now." -St. John Chrysostom

So Yeshua HaDerekh, here you have it.

So there you have what...? That Christians should not celebrate the Jewish fall festivals?

Exactly. We should not celebrate the Jewish feasts.

So who is? The Jews do. However our own were fulfillments of theirs by Christ. As I have said, we would have no Orthodoxy without them. What Chrysostom tends to do is want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

So if a debt was fulfilled would you still pay on it?

No but I would still have the original note that says paid in full from the bank it was paid from...  ;)
 

Of course you would keep record of the debt, especially if it was paid in full. But you would not still pay on the debt.

Likewise, the old feasts of the Jews were a precursor for our feasts. Theirs showed a debt, ours shows a debt paid in full. There is no need to keep revisiting the debt. 

So who is?

The only reason I'd keep paying on a debt that is already fulfilled would be that I didn't know that the debt was paid off. If I don't get the message saying paid in full, or if I don't understand that the debt is paid then I would keep paying on the debt. However, since I got the message that the debt is paid in full I do not need to keep paying to it.

And as you mentioned earlier, Jesus and the Apostles kept the fasts and feasts. They were Jewish. However, the Council of Jerusalem said that the Gentiles do not need to follow the Jewish customs to become Christians. I have never been Jewish, and my family has never been Jewish (that I know of), so there is no need to for me (or anyone else not Jewish) to follow the Jewish feasts and fasts.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 02, 2013, 01:32:21 PM
"What is this disease? The festivals of the pitiful and miserable Jews are soon to march upon us one after the other and in quick succession: the feast of Trumpets, the feast of Tabernacles, the fasts. There are many in our ranks who say they think as we do. Yet some of these are going to watch the festivals and others will join the Jews in keeping their feasts and observing their fasts. I wish to drive this perverse custom from the Church right now." -St. John Chrysostom

So Yeshua HaDerekh, here you have it.

So there you have what...? That Christians should not celebrate the Jewish fall festivals?

Exactly. We should not celebrate the Jewish feasts.

So who is? The Jews do. However our own were fulfillments of theirs by Christ. As I have said, we would have no Orthodoxy without them. What Chrysostom tends to do is want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

So if a debt was fulfilled would you still pay on it?

No but I would still have the original note that says paid in full from the bank it was paid from...  ;)
 

Of course you would keep record of the debt, especially if it was paid in full. But you would not still pay on the debt.

Likewise, the old feasts of the Jews were a precursor for our feasts. Theirs showed a debt, ours shows a debt paid in full. There is no need to keep revisiting the debt. 

So who is?

The only reason I'd keep paying on a debt that is already fulfilled would be that I didn't know that the debt was paid off. If I don't get the message saying paid in full, or if I don't understand that the debt is paid then I would keep paying on the debt. However, since I got the message that the debt is paid in full I do not need to keep paying to it.

And as you mentioned earlier, Jesus and the Apostles kept the fasts and feasts. They were Jewish. However, the Council of Jerusalem said that the Gentiles do not need to follow the Jewish customs to become Christians. I have never been Jewish, and my family has never been Jewish (that I know of), so there is no need to for me (or anyone else not Jewish) to follow the Jewish feasts and fasts.

I never said you did.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: dcommini on May 02, 2013, 01:48:03 PM
"What is this disease? The festivals of the pitiful and miserable Jews are soon to march upon us one after the other and in quick succession: the feast of Trumpets, the feast of Tabernacles, the fasts. There are many in our ranks who say they think as we do. Yet some of these are going to watch the festivals and others will join the Jews in keeping their feasts and observing their fasts. I wish to drive this perverse custom from the Church right now." -St. John Chrysostom

So Yeshua HaDerekh, here you have it.

So there you have what...? That Christians should not celebrate the Jewish fall festivals?

Exactly. We should not celebrate the Jewish feasts.

So who is? The Jews do. However our own were fulfillments of theirs by Christ. As I have said, we would have no Orthodoxy without them. What Chrysostom tends to do is want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

So if a debt was fulfilled would you still pay on it?

No but I would still have the original note that says paid in full from the bank it was paid from...  ;)
 

Of course you would keep record of the debt, especially if it was paid in full. But you would not still pay on the debt.

Likewise, the old feasts of the Jews were a precursor for our feasts. Theirs showed a debt, ours shows a debt paid in full. There is no need to keep revisiting the debt. 

So who is?

The only reason I'd keep paying on a debt that is already fulfilled would be that I didn't know that the debt was paid off. If I don't get the message saying paid in full, or if I don't understand that the debt is paid then I would keep paying on the debt. However, since I got the message that the debt is paid in full I do not need to keep paying to it.

And as you mentioned earlier, Jesus and the Apostles kept the fasts and feasts. They were Jewish. However, the Council of Jerusalem said that the Gentiles do not need to follow the Jewish customs to become Christians. I have never been Jewish, and my family has never been Jewish (that I know of), so there is no need to for me (or anyone else not Jewish) to follow the Jewish feasts and fasts.

I never said you did.

I'm not saying that you did say I did. I'm only giving examples, trying to show that there is no reason to keep to the old fasts and feasts since they have already been fulfilled. I think it is important to acknowledge where our faith started from, and I think it is important to remember our roots. But remembering that there was a debt and constantly revisiting that debt is not the same thing.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 02, 2013, 01:56:13 PM
"What is this disease? The festivals of the pitiful and miserable Jews are soon to march upon us one after the other and in quick succession: the feast of Trumpets, the feast of Tabernacles, the fasts. There are many in our ranks who say they think as we do. Yet some of these are going to watch the festivals and others will join the Jews in keeping their feasts and observing their fasts. I wish to drive this perverse custom from the Church right now." -St. John Chrysostom

So Yeshua HaDerekh, here you have it.

So there you have what...? That Christians should not celebrate the Jewish fall festivals?

Exactly. We should not celebrate the Jewish feasts.

So who is? The Jews do. However our own were fulfillments of theirs by Christ. As I have said, we would have no Orthodoxy without them. What Chrysostom tends to do is want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

So if a debt was fulfilled would you still pay on it?

No but I would still have the original note that says paid in full from the bank it was paid from...  ;)
 

Of course you would keep record of the debt, especially if it was paid in full. But you would not still pay on the debt.

Likewise, the old feasts of the Jews were a precursor for our feasts. Theirs showed a debt, ours shows a debt paid in full. There is no need to keep revisiting the debt. 

So who is?

The only reason I'd keep paying on a debt that is already fulfilled would be that I didn't know that the debt was paid off. If I don't get the message saying paid in full, or if I don't understand that the debt is paid then I would keep paying on the debt. However, since I got the message that the debt is paid in full I do not need to keep paying to it.

And as you mentioned earlier, Jesus and the Apostles kept the fasts and feasts. They were Jewish. However, the Council of Jerusalem said that the Gentiles do not need to follow the Jewish customs to become Christians. I have never been Jewish, and my family has never been Jewish (that I know of), so there is no need to for me (or anyone else not Jewish) to follow the Jewish feasts and fasts.

I never said you did.

I'm not saying that you did say I did. I'm only giving examples, trying to show that there is no reason to keep to the old fasts and feasts since they have already been fulfilled. I think it is important to acknowledge where our faith started from, and I think it is important to remember our roots. But remembering that there was a debt and constantly revisiting that debt is not the same thing.

I am not revisting that debt, I am honoring the one who paid it since I did not have to.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: dcommini on May 02, 2013, 02:15:49 PM


I am not revisting that debt, I am honoring the one who paid it since I did not have to.

Then celebrate the feasts that His Church set up in His rememberance, instead of the feasts of those who rejected Him.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 02, 2013, 02:33:53 PM


I am not revisting that debt, I am honoring the one who paid it since I did not have to.

Then celebrate the feasts that His Church set up in His rememberance, instead of the feasts of those who rejected Him.

I DO what He commanded...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: TheTrisagion on May 02, 2013, 02:39:07 PM


I am not revisting that debt, I am honoring the one who paid it since I did not have to.

Then celebrate the feasts that His Church set up in His rememberance, instead of the feasts of those who rejected Him.

I DO what He commanded...

Where did He command that we follow the Jewish feasts?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 02, 2013, 02:52:54 PM


I am not revisting that debt, I am honoring the one who paid it since I did not have to.

Then celebrate the feasts that His Church set up in His rememberance, instead of the feasts of those who rejected Him.

I DO what He commanded...

Where did He command that we follow the Jewish feasts?

When He fulfilled them. See I thought we were getting somewhere and now you are trying to go in reverse. Remember...Yom HaBikkurim = Pascha? First Fruits...Paul talks about it? Christ our PASSOVER? Remember, ALL NATIONS will be observing Sukkot in the future! According to the prophet Zechariah, in the messianic era Sukkot will become a universal festival and all Nations will make pilgrimages annually to Jerusalem...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: dcommini on May 02, 2013, 03:19:56 PM


I am not revisting that debt, I am honoring the one who paid it since I did not have to.

Then celebrate the feasts that His Church set up in His rememberance, instead of the feasts of those who rejected Him.

I DO what He commanded...

Where did He command that we follow the Jewish feasts?

When He fulfilled them. See I thought we were getting somewhere and now you are trying to go in reverse. Remember...Yom HaBikkurim = Pascha? First Fruits...Paul talks about it? Christ our PASSOVER? Remember, ALL NATIONS will be observing Sukkot in the future! According to the prophet Zechariah, in the messianic era Sukkot will become a universal festival and all Nations will make pilgrimages annually to Jerusalem...

You like to talk about people misreading you, but I think that you do not quite understand.

Some of the feasts that the Church has directly correlate to the Jewish feasts, for a reason! It is to show us that Christ fulfilled the Old Covenant. We do not celebrate the Jewish feasts because they are incomplete. We celebrate the Church's feasts because they are complete.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 02, 2013, 07:42:32 PM


I am not revisting that debt, I am honoring the one who paid it since I did not have to.

Then celebrate the feasts that His Church set up in His rememberance, instead of the feasts of those who rejected Him.

I DO what He commanded...

Where did He command that we follow the Jewish feasts?

When He fulfilled them. See I thought we were getting somewhere and now you are trying to go in reverse. Remember...Yom HaBikkurim = Pascha? First Fruits...Paul talks about it? Christ our PASSOVER? Remember, ALL NATIONS will be observing Sukkot in the future! According to the prophet Zechariah, in the messianic era Sukkot will become a universal festival and all Nations will make pilgrimages annually to Jerusalem...

You like to talk about people misreading you, but I think that you do not quite understand.

Some of the feasts that the Church has directly correlate to the Jewish feasts, for a reason! It is to show us that Christ fulfilled the Old Covenant. We do not celebrate the Jewish feasts because they are incomplete. We celebrate the Church's feasts because they are complete.

I do understand that and have never said differently. 
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Феофан on May 02, 2013, 07:55:08 PM
Dear Yeshua HaDerekh,

Could you please explain to us what you mean by self-identifying your faith as "Eastern Orthodox pre 100AD" and what your opinion is about the faith of the "Eastern Orthodox post 100AD" ?   Perhaps we could understand you better if you clarified these two (related) points in your own words ...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: SolEX01 on May 05, 2013, 03:35:52 AM


I am not revisting that debt, I am honoring the one who paid it since I did not have to.

Then celebrate the feasts that His Church set up in His rememberance, instead of the feasts of those who rejected Him.

I DO what He commanded...

Where did He command that we follow the Jewish feasts?

When He fulfilled them. See I thought we were getting somewhere and now you are trying to go in reverse. Remember...Yom HaBikkurim = Pascha? First Fruits...Paul talks about it? Christ our PASSOVER? Remember, ALL NATIONS will be observing Sukkot in the future! According to the prophet Zechariah, in the messianic era Sukkot will become a universal festival and all Nations will make pilgrimages annually to Jerusalem...

You like to talk about people misreading you, but I think that you do not quite understand.

Some of the feasts that the Church has directly correlate to the Jewish feasts, for a reason! It is to show us that Christ fulfilled the Old Covenant. We do not celebrate the Jewish feasts because they are incomplete. We celebrate the Church's feasts because they are complete.

I do understand that and have never said differently. 

Christ is Risen!
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 05, 2013, 07:52:48 AM
INDEED HE IS RISEN! 
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Marc1152 on May 06, 2013, 03:53:19 PM
Judaizing + condemnation of the Church as a heresy = false idea

LOL, really? Looks like the only idea here that is false is YOURS! You are good at accusing yet offer no proof = false witness.

I am not a Protestant. We dont engage is scriptural spitting matches between individuals.. We refer to the authority of the Chruch itself which has been more than clear that Judaizing is a pernicious heresy. Therefore, it is a false teaching without doubt and leads to perdition.

 
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 06, 2013, 07:02:42 PM
Judaizing + condemnation of the Church as a heresy = false idea

LOL, really? Looks like the only idea here that is false is YOURS! You are good at accusing yet offer no proof = false witness.

I am not a Protestant. We dont engage is scriptural spitting matches between individuals.. We refer to the authority of the Chruch itself which has been more than clear that Judaizing is a pernicious heresy. Therefore, it is a false teaching without doubt and leads to perdition.

 

I will stop "judaising" when you stop being an Arian.  Remember when someone asks.."have you stopped beating your wife yet"? Same thing you are trying to do to me. Why not just ask me..."have you stopped Judaizing yet"? LOL
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: biro on May 06, 2013, 07:11:14 PM
  ::)

Lame.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: SolEX01 on May 06, 2013, 07:17:47 PM
Judaizing + condemnation of the Church as a heresy = false idea

LOL, really? Looks like the only idea here that is false is YOURS! You are good at accusing yet offer no proof = false witness.

I am not a Protestant. We dont engage is scriptural spitting matches between individuals.. We refer to the authority of the Chruch itself which has been more than clear that Judaizing is a pernicious heresy. Therefore, it is a false teaching without doubt and leads to perdition.

 

I will stop "judaising" when you stop being an Arian.  Remember when someone asks.."have you stopped beating your wife yet"? Same thing you are trying to do to me. Why not just ask me..."have you stopped Judaizing yet"? LOL

Can you answer the question posed in Reply #247?   ???
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Marc1152 on May 06, 2013, 08:20:59 PM
Judaizing + condemnation of the Church as a heresy = false idea

LOL, really? Looks like the only idea here that is false is YOURS! You are good at accusing yet offer no proof = false witness.

I am not a Protestant. We dont engage is scriptural spitting matches between individuals.. We refer to the authority of the Chruch itself which has been more than clear that Judaizing is a pernicious heresy. Therefore, it is a false teaching without doubt and leads to perdition.

 

I will stop "judaising" when you stop being an Arian.  Remember when someone asks.."have you stopped beating your wife yet"? Same thing you are trying to do to me. Why not just ask me..."have you stopped Judaizing yet"? LOL

Well now you are just shooting from the hip. I am certainly not an Arian.

The real question isnt Judaizing. It is the authority of the Church. If you beleive that The Church isnt what it says it is then you can feel free to float around and pick and choose by your personal whim. You may end up a Judaizer or an Arian or a Jehovah's Witness.

People come to Orthodoxy when they study the history of the Church and discover it did not disband or fall away from the True Faith. Once you understand that, then the question of heresy gets easier to deal with because you have 2,000 years of commentary to refer to. You can simply ask what  the Fathers had to say about Judaizing and discover that it is condemned throughout the Church over long stretches of time by many Fathers and Saints..

 
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: rakovsky on May 07, 2013, 03:10:02 AM
When He fulfilled them. See I thought we were getting somewhere and now you are trying to go in reverse. Remember...Yom HaBikkurim = Pascha? First Fruits...Paul talks about it? Christ our PASSOVER? Remember, ALL NATIONS will be observing Sukkot in the future! According to the prophet Zechariah, in the messianic era Sukkot will become a universal festival and all Nations will make pilgrimages annually to Jerusalem...
What do you think about John 4:

21. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

23. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.


In Christianity, perhaps the "New Jerusalem" (mentioned eg. in Revelations) is something different than the earthly one?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 07, 2013, 09:39:58 AM
Judaizing + condemnation of the Church as a heresy = false idea

LOL, really? Looks like the only idea here that is false is YOURS! You are good at accusing yet offer no proof = false witness.

I am not a Protestant. We dont engage is scriptural spitting matches between individuals.. We refer to the authority of the Chruch itself which has been more than clear that Judaizing is a pernicious heresy. Therefore, it is a false teaching without doubt and leads to perdition.

 

I will stop "judaising" when you stop being an Arian.  Remember when someone asks.."have you stopped beating your wife yet"? Same thing you are trying to do to me. Why not just ask me..."have you stopped Judaizing yet"? LOL

Well now you are just shooting from the hip. I am certainly not an Arian.

The real question isnt Judaizing. It is the authority of the Church. If you beleive that The Church isnt what it says it is then you can feel free to float around and pick and choose by your personal whim. You may end up a Judaizer or an Arian or a Jehovah's Witness.

People come to Orthodoxy when they study the history of the Church and discover it did not disband or fall away from the True Faith. Once you understand that, then the question of heresy gets easier to deal with because you have 2,000 years of commentary to refer to. You can simply ask what  the Fathers had to say about Judaizing and discover that it is condemned throughout the Church over long stretches of time by many Fathers and Saints..

 

Just using an example of the same thing YOU are doing to me.

The real question isnt Arianism. It is the authority of the Church. If you beleive that The Church isnt what it says it is then you can feel free to float around and pick and choose by your personal whim. You may end up a an Arian or a Jehovah's Witness.

People come to Orthodoxy when they study the history of the Church and discover it did not disband or fall away from the True Faith. Once you understand that, then the question of heresy gets easier to deal with because you have 2,000 years of commentary to refer to. You can simply ask what  the Fathers had to say about arianism and discover that it is condemned throughout the Church over long stretches of time by many Fathers and Saints..
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 07, 2013, 09:41:32 AM
When He fulfilled them. See I thought we were getting somewhere and now you are trying to go in reverse. Remember...Yom HaBikkurim = Pascha? First Fruits...Paul talks about it? Christ our PASSOVER? Remember, ALL NATIONS will be observing Sukkot in the future! According to the prophet Zechariah, in the messianic era Sukkot will become a universal festival and all Nations will make pilgrimages annually to Jerusalem...
What do you think about John 4:

21. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

23. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.


In Christianity, perhaps the "New Jerusalem" (mentioned eg. in Revelations) is something different than the earthly one?

Interesting thought, however, Yeshua will have a 1000 year reign here on Earth.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: TheTrisagion on May 07, 2013, 09:44:31 AM
Isn't that Protestant eschatology?  I was under the impression that the Church does not interpret that as a literal event.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: LBK on May 07, 2013, 09:45:59 AM
Isn't that Protestant eschatology?  I was under the impression that the Church does not interpret that as a literal event.

It doesn't.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 07, 2013, 09:58:49 AM
Isn't that Protestant eschatology?  I was under the impression that the Church does not interpret that as a literal event.

It doesn't.

You all seem to forget that not everything is "protestant" teaching. Some of these beliefs were debated in the early church. What you are implying is "chiliasm". The church called chiliasm "superstition." Again, some in the church believed this while others did not. You need to understand, just like the 14th is NOT Pascha, chiliasm is directly affiliated with the belief in premilleniamism as well as the pre-tribulational rapture.

Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: LBK on May 07, 2013, 10:19:15 AM
Isn't that Protestant eschatology?  I was under the impression that the Church does not interpret that as a literal event.

It doesn't.

You all seem to forget that not everything is "protestant" teaching. Some of these beliefs were debated in the early church. What you are implying is "chiliasm". The church called chiliasm "superstition." Again, some in the church believed this while others did not. You need to understand, just like the 14th is NOT Pascha, chiliasm is directly affiliated with the belief in premilleniamism as well as the pre-tribulational rapture.



Yet, in the same breath, you say: Interesting thought, however, Yeshua will have a 1000 year reign here on Earth. Care to explain?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Marc1152 on May 07, 2013, 10:25:42 AM
Judaizing + condemnation of the Church as a heresy = false idea

LOL, really? Looks like the only idea here that is false is YOURS! You are good at accusing yet offer no proof = false witness.

I am not a Protestant. We dont engage is scriptural spitting matches between individuals.. We refer to the authority of the Chruch itself which has been more than clear that Judaizing is a pernicious heresy. Therefore, it is a false teaching without doubt and leads to perdition.

 

I will stop "judaising" when you stop being an Arian.  Remember when someone asks.."have you stopped beating your wife yet"? Same thing you are trying to do to me. Why not just ask me..."have you stopped Judaizing yet"? LOL

Well now you are just shooting from the hip. I am certainly not an Arian.

The real question isnt Judaizing. It is the authority of the Church. If you beleive that The Church isnt what it says it is then you can feel free to float around and pick and choose by your personal whim. You may end up a Judaizer or an Arian or a Jehovah's Witness.

People come to Orthodoxy when they study the history of the Church and discover it did not disband or fall away from the True Faith. Once you understand that, then the question of heresy gets easier to deal with because you have 2,000 years of commentary to refer to. You can simply ask what  the Fathers had to say about Judaizing and discover that it is condemned throughout the Church over long stretches of time by many Fathers and Saints..

 

Just using an example of the same thing YOU are doing to me.

The real question isnt Arianism. It is the authority of the Church. If you beleive that The Church isnt what it says it is then you can feel free to float around and pick and choose by your personal whim. You may end up a an Arian or a Jehovah's Witness.

People come to Orthodoxy when they study the history of the Church and discover it did not disband or fall away from the True Faith. Once you understand that, then the question of heresy gets easier to deal with because you have 2,000 years of commentary to refer to. You can simply ask what  the Fathers had to say about arianism and discover that it is condemned throughout the Church over long stretches of time by many Fathers and Saints..


Just using an example of the same thing YOU are doing to me.

Say what?

You are plainly arguing for Judaizing Christianity. If that is not really the case then you probably should say so pretty quickly.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Marc1152 on May 07, 2013, 10:38:28 AM
Isn't that Protestant eschatology?  I was under the impression that the Church does not interpret that as a literal event.

It doesn't.

You all seem to forget that not everything is "protestant" teaching. Some of these beliefs were debated in the early church. What you are implying is "chiliasm". The church called chiliasm "superstition." Again, some in the church believed this while others did not. You need to understand, just like the 14th is NOT Pascha, chiliasm is directly affiliated with the belief in premilleniamism as well as the pre-tribulational rapture.



It is more about a Protestant mind set. That includes a disregard for The Church and lots of picking a choosing and proof texting to suit yourself and your personal preferences.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: rakovsky on May 07, 2013, 11:20:50 AM
ALL NATIONS will be observing Sukkot in the future! According to the prophet Zechariah, in the messianic era Sukkot will become a universal festival and all Nations will make pilgrimages annually to Jerusalem...
What do you think about John 4:

21. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

23. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.


In Christianity, perhaps the "New Jerusalem" (mentioned eg. in Revelations) is something different than the earthly one?

Interesting thought, however, Yeshua will have a 1000 year reign here on Earth.
Y.HaDereKh,

Why do you think Jesus contrasts worshipping in Jerusalem with worshipping in spirit?

And don't you think Jesus' contrast of the two forms of worship resemble Revelation 21:22:
I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 07, 2013, 12:53:57 PM
ALL NATIONS will be observing Sukkot in the future! According to the prophet Zechariah, in the messianic era Sukkot will become a universal festival and all Nations will make pilgrimages annually to Jerusalem...
What do you think about John 4:

21. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

23. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.


In Christianity, perhaps the "New Jerusalem" (mentioned eg. in Revelations) is something different than the earthly one?

Interesting thought, however, Yeshua will have a 1000 year reign here on Earth.
Y.HaDereKh,

Why do you think Jesus contrasts worshipping in Jerusalem with worshipping in spirit?

And don't you think Jesus' contrast of the two forms of worship resemble Revelation 21:22:
I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

He was prophecing to her of the destruction of The Temple as well as the area she lived in by the Romans. I do not see the relevence of that with Revelation and Zacheriah.  however, what i find interesting is in Revelation as follows:

“1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

hasatan has not been bound for 1000 years yet. Also, the first resurection did not occur yet.  There is 1000 years between the 1st and the 2nd. It is only AFTER that time when hasatan is loosed that the Gog/Magog war will occur. The beloved city here would be Yerusalem.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 07, 2013, 12:56:15 PM
Judaizing + condemnation of the Church as a heresy = false idea

LOL, really? Looks like the only idea here that is false is YOURS! You are good at accusing yet offer no proof = false witness.

I am not a Protestant. We dont engage is scriptural spitting matches between individuals.. We refer to the authority of the Chruch itself which has been more than clear that Judaizing is a pernicious heresy. Therefore, it is a false teaching without doubt and leads to perdition.

 

I will stop "judaising" when you stop being an Arian.  Remember when someone asks.."have you stopped beating your wife yet"? Same thing you are trying to do to me. Why not just ask me..."have you stopped Judaizing yet"? LOL

Well now you are just shooting from the hip. I am certainly not an Arian.

The real question isnt Judaizing. It is the authority of the Church. If you beleive that The Church isnt what it says it is then you can feel free to float around and pick and choose by your personal whim. You may end up a Judaizer or an Arian or a Jehovah's Witness.

People come to Orthodoxy when they study the history of the Church and discover it did not disband or fall away from the True Faith. Once you understand that, then the question of heresy gets easier to deal with because you have 2,000 years of commentary to refer to. You can simply ask what  the Fathers had to say about Judaizing and discover that it is condemned throughout the Church over long stretches of time by many Fathers and Saints..

 

Just using an example of the same thing YOU are doing to me.

The real question isnt Arianism. It is the authority of the Church. If you beleive that The Church isnt what it says it is then you can feel free to float around and pick and choose by your personal whim. You may end up a an Arian or a Jehovah's Witness.

People come to Orthodoxy when they study the history of the Church and discover it did not disband or fall away from the True Faith. Once you understand that, then the question of heresy gets easier to deal with because you have 2,000 years of commentary to refer to. You can simply ask what  the Fathers had to say about arianism and discover that it is condemned throughout the Church over long stretches of time by many Fathers and Saints..


Just using an example of the same thing YOU are doing to me.

Say what?

You are plainly arguing for Judaizing Christianity. If that is not really the case then you probably should say so pretty quickly.

I have already...you just do not seem to read anything I write that would discolor your view of me. Understanding doctrine within the original Judaic concept is not "Judaizing"... ie Pascha fulfills Yom HaBikkurim.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 07, 2013, 12:57:50 PM
Isn't that Protestant eschatology?  I was under the impression that the Church does not interpret that as a literal event.

It doesn't.

You all seem to forget that not everything is "protestant" teaching. Some of these beliefs were debated in the early church. What you are implying is "chiliasm". The church called chiliasm "superstition." Again, some in the church believed this while others did not. You need to understand, just like the 14th is NOT Pascha, chiliasm is directly affiliated with the belief in premilleniamism as well as the pre-tribulational rapture.



Yet, in the same breath, you say: Interesting thought, however, Yeshua will have a 1000 year reign here on Earth. Care to explain?

I explain that in the post above. Also, it actually SAYS it.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Cyrillic on May 07, 2013, 12:58:56 PM
Oh great, now we have chiliasm.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Феофан on May 07, 2013, 12:59:29 PM
Dear Yeshua HaDerekh,

I'm curious to understand the response you are eliciting here.  While you seem to imply it's all their fault, I wonder if they might be legitimately alarmed by something I can only guess at?  I'm not as informed about many things here as others.  You will help us (and me in particular) if you would explain to us what you mean by self-identifying your faith as "Eastern Orthodox pre 100AD" and what your opinion is about the faith of the "Eastern Orthodox post 100AD" ?   Perhaps we could understand you better if you clarified these two (related) points in your own words ...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Marc1152 on May 07, 2013, 01:07:17 PM
 
You seem to mention that you think people are miss reading you. Yet, you obfuscate when asked directly like in the post above .

I read back and saw that you recommend Jewish practices. This is from post 21 concerning Jewish Pray shawls.

"Wear it while you pray. Jesus and all the apostles did! :-)"

If I get more time I can re post more of the same that has led people to consider you a Judaizer. But it may be best to just answer the question that was put before you about what you mean by pre 100 AD Orthodox.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 07, 2013, 01:08:02 PM
Dear Yeshua HaDerekh,

I'm curious to understand the response you are eliciting here.  While you seem to imply it's all their fault, I wonder if they might be legitimately alarmed by something I can only guess at?  I'm not as informed about many things here as others.  You will help us (and me in particular) if you would explain to us what you mean by self-identifying your faith as "Eastern Orthodox pre 100AD" and what your opinion is about the faith of the "Eastern Orthodox post 100AD" ?   Perhaps we could understand you better if you clarified these two (related) points in your own words ...

There really is nothing to clarify. Understanding and identifying with the Church within the original Judaic context.  I dont have any problems with the Church post 100AD.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Marc1152 on May 07, 2013, 01:12:54 PM
Dear Yeshua HaDerekh,

I'm curious to understand the response you are eliciting here.  While you seem to imply it's all their fault, I wonder if they might be legitimately alarmed by something I can only guess at?  I'm not as informed about many things here as others.  You will help us (and me in particular) if you would explain to us what you mean by self-identifying your faith as "Eastern Orthodox pre 100AD" and what your opinion is about the faith of the "Eastern Orthodox post 100AD" ?   Perhaps we could understand you better if you clarified these two (related) points in your own words ...

There really is nothing to clarify. Understanding and identifying with the Church within the original Judaic context.  I dont have any problems with the Church post 100AD.

Understanding the Jewish Roots of many Christian practices is a fine endeavor. Praticing Jewish rituals that have been specifically done away with by The Church is another. That is called Judaizing and if you promote it then you do indeed have a big problem The Church no matter what you say,
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 07, 2013, 01:13:25 PM
Judaizing + condemnation of the Church as a heresy = false idea

LOL, really? Looks like the only idea here that is false is YOURS! You are good at accusing yet offer no proof = false witness.

I am not a Protestant. We dont engage is scriptural spitting matches between individuals.. We refer to the authority of the Chruch itself which has been more than clear that Judaizing is a pernicious heresy. Therefore, it is a false teaching without doubt and leads to perdition.

 

I will stop "judaising" when you stop being an Arian.  Remember when someone asks.."have you stopped beating your wife yet"? Same thing you are trying to do to me. Why not just ask me..."have you stopped Judaizing yet"? LOL

Well now you are just shooting consistently think people are miss reading you. Yet you obfiscate and when asked directly like in the post above and you also recomend Jewish practices. Here is from post 21 concering Jewish Pray shawls.

"Wear it while you pray.  Jesus and all the apostles did! :-)"

If I get more time I can repost more of the same that has led people to consider you a Judaizer. But it may be best to just answer the question that was  put before you about what you mean by pre 100 AD Orthodox.

And your point is what, that no Orthodox Christian ever wore a prayer shawl? Just because the custom now is not to, does not mean one cant...see, you do not seem to understand the original meaning of "judaizing" and the context it was written in. If I were you, I would go back and read it again (trying to understand the CONTEXT it was written in).
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 07, 2013, 01:17:02 PM
Dear Yeshua HaDerekh,

I'm curious to understand the response you are eliciting here.  While you seem to imply it's all their fault, I wonder if they might be legitimately alarmed by something I can only guess at?  I'm not as informed about many things here as others.  You will help us (and me in particular) if you would explain to us what you mean by self-identifying your faith as "Eastern Orthodox pre 100AD" and what your opinion is about the faith of the "Eastern Orthodox post 100AD" ?   Perhaps we could understand you better if you clarified these two (related) points in your own words ...

There really is nothing to clarify. Understanding and identifying with the Church within the original Judaic context.  I dont have any problems with the Church post 100AD.

Understanding the Jewish Roots of many Christian practices is a fine endeavor. Praticing Jewish rituals that have been specifically done away with by The Church is another. That is called Judaizing and if you promote it then you do indeed have a big problem The Church no matter what you say,

I guess maybe you should look at it another way. Russian orthodox have their customs, Greek orthodox have theirs and the Copts have theirs. What Jewish rituals am I practicing. Since I believe Yeshua is The messiah, I really cant unless I practice them while NOT believing He is the Messiah...but then I would be a Jew...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: TheTrisagion on May 07, 2013, 01:21:47 PM
The part that I get confused at is the Russians have their customs because they are directed by the Patriarch and an unbroken line of tradition, same with the Greeks, Copts, etc.

Has the Ecumenical Patriarch that you state you are under directed your customs?  Has their been an unbroken line of this tradition or is it something you picked up because you think it is authentic?  I would think that if there was some unbroken line of tradition, others in the Church would have heard about it before you notified us of it.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 07, 2013, 01:29:18 PM
The part that I get confused at is the Russians have their customs because they are directed by the Patriarch and an unbroken line of tradition, same with the Greeks, Copts, etc.

Has the Ecumenical Patriarch that you state you are under directed your customs?  Has their been an unbroken line of this tradition or is it something you picked up because you think it is authentic?  I would think that if there was some unbroken line of tradition, others in the Church would have heard about it before you notified us of it.

Are you kidding me? James was the head of the Church in Jerusalem.  You think that the Russians and Greeks and Copts had no customs infiltrate unless some Patriarch directed them to? It was the other way around...a Patriarch ACCEPTED them. you see that is one of the main difference between the EO and the RC. The EO ADOPT customs and languages of the indigenous peoples, while the RC force their own latin customs/language on them. 
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 07, 2013, 01:39:51 PM
So are we now in the same situation...the Jews would not accept Jewish Christians because they believed that Yeshua was the Moshiach and the Gentile Christians would not accept the original Jewish Christians because they were Jews?  ::)
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: TheTrisagion on May 07, 2013, 01:48:39 PM
I know that James was the Bishop of Jerusalem, but that doesn't mean there is a line of tradition from him to you.  I get the impression that that there were some Jewish Christians in the early Church that practiced Jewish customs, that practices died out and now 2000 years later, you are attempting to resurrect it.

I said Patriarchs AND unbroken tradition meaning BOTH.

I don't see how we are in the same situation.  You have never even admitted to being Jewish.  It's not like you are being cast aside because of your heritage.  For all I know, you are some American kid who saw some cool Jewish customs on Youtube and decided to incorporate them into your worship.  I haven't condemned you or called you a heretic, because what you decide to do doesn't really bother me, but I am kinda interested in your mindset (other than the persecution complex you seem to have)  ::)
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 07, 2013, 01:59:51 PM
I know that James was the Bishop of Jerusalem, but that doesn't mean there is a line of tradition from him to you.  I get the impression that that there were some Jewish Christians in the early Church that practiced Jewish customs, that practices died out and now 2000 years later, you are attempting to resurrect it.

I said Patriarchs AND unbroken tradition meaning BOTH.

I don't see how we are in the same situation.  You have never even admitted to being Jewish.  It's not like you are being cast aside because of your heritage.  For all I know, you are some American kid who saw some cool Jewish customs on Youtube and decided to incorporate them into your worship.  I haven't condemned you or called you a heretic, because what you decide to do doesn't really bother me, but I am kinda interested in your mindset (other than the persecution complex you seem to have)  ::)

Hmmm...many of you are Irish, German, ect...yet you all go to RUSSIAN Orthodox Churches or GREEK orthodox Churches AND you adopt their customs. Maybe read this:

http://www.st-benedict.org/Articles/Jewish_roots.htm
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: TheTrisagion on May 07, 2013, 02:09:56 PM
I know that James was the Bishop of Jerusalem, but that doesn't mean there is a line of tradition from him to you.  I get the impression that that there were some Jewish Christians in the early Church that practiced Jewish customs, that practices died out and now 2000 years later, you are attempting to resurrect it.

I said Patriarchs AND unbroken tradition meaning BOTH.

I don't see how we are in the same situation.  You have never even admitted to being Jewish.  It's not like you are being cast aside because of your heritage.  For all I know, you are some American kid who saw some cool Jewish customs on Youtube and decided to incorporate them into your worship.  I haven't condemned you or called you a heretic, because what you decide to do doesn't really bother me, but I am kinda interested in your mindset (other than the persecution complex you seem to have)  ::)

Hmmm...many of you are Irish, German, ect...yet you all go to RUSSIAN Orthodox Churches or GREEK orthodox Churches AND you adopt their customs. Maybe read this:

http://www.st-benedict.org/Articles/Jewish_roots.htm

We do, but that is not ideal.  Most in the US, I believe, would like us to have an American Orthodox Church. It is only because of immigration that we have the confusion that we do.  I don't see a reason to add "Jewish" Orthodox into the mix.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Schultz on May 07, 2013, 02:13:15 PM
I know that James was the Bishop of Jerusalem, but that doesn't mean there is a line of tradition from him to you.  I get the impression that that there were some Jewish Christians in the early Church that practiced Jewish customs, that practices died out and now 2000 years later, you are attempting to resurrect it.

I said Patriarchs AND unbroken tradition meaning BOTH.

I don't see how we are in the same situation.  You have never even admitted to being Jewish.  It's not like you are being cast aside because of your heritage.  For all I know, you are some American kid who saw some cool Jewish customs on Youtube and decided to incorporate them into your worship.  I haven't condemned you or called you a heretic, because what you decide to do doesn't really bother me, but I am kinda interested in your mindset (other than the persecution complex you seem to have)  ::)

Hmmm...many of you are Irish, German, ect...yet you all go to RUSSIAN Orthodox Churches or GREEK orthodox Churches AND you adopt their customs. Maybe read this:

http://www.st-benedict.org/Articles/Jewish_roots.htm

No, I don't.  In church, maybe.  But at home, my wife and I still do the German, Polish, and Italian customs we grew up doing.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 07, 2013, 02:24:50 PM
I know that James was the Bishop of Jerusalem, but that doesn't mean there is a line of tradition from him to you.  I get the impression that that there were some Jewish Christians in the early Church that practiced Jewish customs, that practices died out and now 2000 years later, you are attempting to resurrect it.

I said Patriarchs AND unbroken tradition meaning BOTH.

I don't see how we are in the same situation.  You have never even admitted to being Jewish.  It's not like you are being cast aside because of your heritage.  For all I know, you are some American kid who saw some cool Jewish customs on Youtube and decided to incorporate them into your worship.  I haven't condemned you or called you a heretic, because what you decide to do doesn't really bother me, but I am kinda interested in your mindset (other than the persecution complex you seem to have)  ::)

Hmmm...many of you are Irish, German, ect...yet you all go to RUSSIAN Orthodox Churches or GREEK orthodox Churches AND you adopt their customs. Maybe read this:

http://www.st-benedict.org/Articles/Jewish_roots.htm

No, I don't.  In church, maybe.  But at home, my wife and I still do the German, Polish, and Italian customs we grew up doing.

tHERE YA GO!  :)
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 07, 2013, 02:26:33 PM
Also saw this as interesting:

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/jewish_1.html
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 07, 2013, 02:28:08 PM
I know that James was the Bishop of Jerusalem, but that doesn't mean there is a line of tradition from him to you.  I get the impression that that there were some Jewish Christians in the early Church that practiced Jewish customs, that practices died out and now 2000 years later, you are attempting to resurrect it.

I said Patriarchs AND unbroken tradition meaning BOTH.

I don't see how we are in the same situation.  You have never even admitted to being Jewish.  It's not like you are being cast aside because of your heritage.  For all I know, you are some American kid who saw some cool Jewish customs on Youtube and decided to incorporate them into your worship.  I haven't condemned you or called you a heretic, because what you decide to do doesn't really bother me, but I am kinda interested in your mindset (other than the persecution complex you seem to have)  ::)

Hmmm...many of you are Irish, German, ect...yet you all go to RUSSIAN Orthodox Churches or GREEK orthodox Churches AND you adopt their customs. Maybe read this:

http://www.st-benedict.org/Articles/Jewish_roots.htm

We do, but that is not ideal.  Most in the US, I believe, would like us to have an American Orthodox Church. It is only because of immigration that we have the confusion that we do.  I don't see a reason to add "Jewish" Orthodox into the mix.

That was what the OCA was suppossed to be...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: TheTrisagion on May 07, 2013, 02:32:13 PM
I know that James was the Bishop of Jerusalem, but that doesn't mean there is a line of tradition from him to you.  I get the impression that that there were some Jewish Christians in the early Church that practiced Jewish customs, that practices died out and now 2000 years later, you are attempting to resurrect it.

I said Patriarchs AND unbroken tradition meaning BOTH.

I don't see how we are in the same situation.  You have never even admitted to being Jewish.  It's not like you are being cast aside because of your heritage.  For all I know, you are some American kid who saw some cool Jewish customs on Youtube and decided to incorporate them into your worship.  I haven't condemned you or called you a heretic, because what you decide to do doesn't really bother me, but I am kinda interested in your mindset (other than the persecution complex you seem to have)  ::)

Hmmm...many of you are Irish, German, ect...yet you all go to RUSSIAN Orthodox Churches or GREEK orthodox Churches AND you adopt their customs. Maybe read this:

http://www.st-benedict.org/Articles/Jewish_roots.htm

No, I don't.  In church, maybe.  But at home, my wife and I still do the German, Polish, and Italian customs we grew up doing.

tHERE YA GO!  :)

1. I don't see how this answers any questions.
2. I don't know of any parishes that practice what you practice including the parish that you linked to.

Which brings us back to the original question, what unbroken line of tradition are you following besides your own?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Marc1152 on May 07, 2013, 02:33:44 PM
You recommended that a non-Jew wear a pray shawl. You have managed to commit sacrilege in two different religions concurrently.. Good Work  :)
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: rakovsky on May 07, 2013, 02:34:01 PM
According to the prophet Zechariah, in the messianic era Sukkot will become a universal festival and all Nations will make pilgrimages annually to Jerusalem...
What do you think about John 4:

21. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

23. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Y.HaDereKh,

Why do you think Jesus contrasts worshipping in Jerusalem with worshipping in spirit?

And don't you think Jesus' contrast of the two forms of worship resemble Revelation 21:22:
I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

He was prophecing to her of the destruction of The Temple as well as the area she lived in by the Romans. I do not see the relevence of that with Revelation and Zacheriah.  
Revelations equates the prophesied Temple with something different than a physical building.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Marc1152 on May 07, 2013, 02:38:42 PM
You don't have to be a Roman or even Italian to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church.

You don't have to be Russian to be a member of the Russian Orthodox Catholic Church.

Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 07, 2013, 03:01:49 PM
You don't have to be a Roman or even Italian to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church.

You don't have to be Russian to be a member of the Russian Orthodox Catholic Church.



Yeah, so? My point, as you seem to consistently seem to miss, was that you adopt their customs even though you do not have their background.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 07, 2013, 03:02:50 PM
You recommended that a non-Jew wear a pray shawl. You have managed to commit sacrilege in two different religions concurrently.. Good Work  :)

That must make you SOOO happy?  :D
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 07, 2013, 03:06:24 PM
I know that James was the Bishop of Jerusalem, but that doesn't mean there is a line of tradition from him to you.  I get the impression that that there were some Jewish Christians in the early Church that practiced Jewish customs, that practices died out and now 2000 years later, you are attempting to resurrect it.

I said Patriarchs AND unbroken tradition meaning BOTH.

I don't see how we are in the same situation.  You have never even admitted to being Jewish.  It's not like you are being cast aside because of your heritage.  For all I know, you are some American kid who saw some cool Jewish customs on Youtube and decided to incorporate them into your worship.  I haven't condemned you or called you a heretic, because what you decide to do doesn't really bother me, but I am kinda interested in your mindset (other than the persecution complex you seem to have)  ::)

Hmmm...many of you are Irish, German, ect...yet you all go to RUSSIAN Orthodox Churches or GREEK orthodox Churches AND you adopt their customs. Maybe read this:

http://www.st-benedict.org/Articles/Jewish_roots.htm

No, I don't.  In church, maybe.  But at home, my wife and I still do the German, Polish, and Italian customs we grew up doing.

tHERE YA GO!  :)

1. I don't see how this answers any questions.
2. I don't know of any parishes that practice what you practice including the parish that you linked to.

Which brings us back to the original question, what unbroken line of tradition are you following besides your own?

I never said any did.  But that does not mean I cant...just because something isnt practiced anymore that once was does not mean it cant be done any longer.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 07, 2013, 03:09:49 PM
Would it make you all happier if I were NOT Orthodox? Would it all be OK then?  ::)
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: TheTrisagion on May 07, 2013, 03:11:21 PM
My happiness is not derived from anything you do or don't do.  I'm just confused by the astounding number of contradictions and paradoxes that seem to indwell our belief system.  :-*
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 07, 2013, 03:15:13 PM
My happiness is not derived from anything you do or don't do.  I'm just confused by the astounding number of contradictions and paradoxes that seem to indwell our belief system.  :-*

I do not see any  :-*
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 07, 2013, 03:16:56 PM
It just seems that me BEING Orthodox is what is bothering everyone...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: sheenj on May 07, 2013, 03:20:55 PM
It just seems that me BEING Orthodox is what is bothering everyone...

I think it's more you refusing to follow the accepted praxis of the Church. Especially considering that you are under an Orthodox Bishop.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: SolEX01 on May 07, 2013, 03:38:09 PM
It just seems that me BEING Orthodox is what is bothering everyone...

Was the OCA church disturbed by your Jewish worship?  Does your EP church tolerate your Jewish worship?

I skimmed the OCF article you provided.  No mention of former Russian Jews, after becoming Orthodox Christians, retaining patterns of Jewish worship.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Феофан on May 07, 2013, 03:50:35 PM
There really is nothing to clarify. Understanding and identifying with the Church within the original Judaic context.  I dont have any problems with the Church post 100AD.

If you accept, respect and find good guidance in the whole history of the Orthodox Church including its origins as well as its elaboration through time to this day - then we are brothers and I wish you well.  If something else then we are still brothers (as all men are) and I still wish you well ... even if I don't understand you.  May God have mercy and guide us all.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Punch on May 07, 2013, 05:47:11 PM
It just seems that me BEING Orthodox is what is bothering everyone...

No.  What bothers me after reading this thread is that I really wish that you were Orthodox.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Marc1152 on May 07, 2013, 05:51:34 PM
You don't have to be a Roman or even Italian to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church.

You don't have to be Russian to be a member of the Russian Orthodox Catholic Church.



Yeah, so? My point, as you seem to consistently seem to miss, was that you adopt their customs even though you do not have their background.

You seem to be confused about what customs are and what the Christian Faith is.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: rakovsky on May 07, 2013, 06:46:26 PM
Yeah, so? My point, as you seem to consistently seem to miss, was that you adopt their customs even though you do not have their background.
You seem to be confused about what customs are and what the Christian Faith is.
Every nation on earth that became Christian adopted "their" customs even though it did not have "their" background. Anyway, those customs themselves are either Israelite ones or based indirectly on Israelite customs.

No one complains about Greek customs being lost when they gave up their oracles and statues. Why do we have to think about this as a huge problem for the Jewish nationality if we no longer have a Day of Atonement Temple sacrifice in Christianity, and have Paskha, Christ's sacrifice, and the Eucharist instead?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: biro on May 07, 2013, 07:34:36 PM
It's one thing to have Jewish cultural practices, such as, perhaps, use of the Hebrew language. It's another to have Messianic Jewish, i.e. Protestant Christian practices such as saying you are part of a mysterious 'pre-100 A.D.' Orthodoxy, and continuing to practice Jewish, not Christian, festivals. No Christian I know of, whether of Jewish ancestry or otherwise, builds a booth outside their house for Sukkot, for instance. That's just Jewish. No one refers to the Jewish months. No one denies that Judaizing is a heresy. There's no way a church under the Ecumenical Patriarchate - such as the Greek Orthodox Church in the U.S., for instance- would do this kind of thing. Whether YHD grabbed the EP's name out of a hat just to cover his caboose, or just 'thinks' of himself as Orthodox because he lives near an Orthodox Church, is anyone's guess. But there is a difference between a Messianic Jew and an Orthodox Christian. A Messianic Jew is a Protestant. Like it or not, that is a fact. An Orthodox Christian is not a Protestant. If personal culture is so important, can I come to church in my old high school gym uniform?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: dcommini on May 07, 2013, 08:20:23 PM
Well, I gave the tallit to a poster on this forum who requested it for their brother (who is Jewish).

Just wanted to let you all know that.

Back to arguing.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Феофан on May 07, 2013, 09:51:05 PM
Back to arguing.

nah... been there, done that!   ;)
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: rakovsky on May 07, 2013, 11:52:16 PM
If personal culture is so important, can I come to church in my old high school gym uniform?
Yes, but you need a good excuse, like being poor and having nothing else.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 06:30:20 AM
It just seems that me BEING Orthodox is what is bothering everyone...

I think it's more you refusing to follow the accepted praxis of the Church.

And what would that be?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 06:36:02 AM
Yeah, so? My point, as you seem to consistently seem to miss, was that you adopt their customs even though you do not have their background.
You seem to be confused about what customs are and what the Christian Faith is.
Every nation on earth that became Christian adopted "their" customs even though it did not have "their" background. Anyway, those customs themselves are either Israelite ones or based indirectly on Israelite customs.

No one complains about Greek customs being lost when they gave up their oracles and statues. Why do we have to think about this as a huge problem for the Jewish nationality if we no longer have a Day of Atonement Temple sacrifice in Christianity, and have Paskha, Christ's sacrifice, and the Eucharist instead?

I never said it was a problem. I said, it is better understood within the original Jewish context. How many of you here knew Pascha directly fulfilled Yom HaBikkurim? Jews no longer have a temple sacrifice either. Christianity did not begin in Greece. It began in Jerusalem by JEWS that belived Yeshua was the promised Moshiach. It spread from there.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: LBK on May 08, 2013, 06:38:05 AM
It just seems that me BEING Orthodox is what is bothering everyone...

I think it's more you refusing to follow the accepted praxis of the Church.

And what would that be?

Observing the feasts of the Church as the Church sets out, which does not include the neo-Judaizing you indulge in.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 06:47:57 AM
It's one thing to have Jewish cultural practices, such as, perhaps, use of the Hebrew language. It's another to have Messianic Jewish, i.e. Protestant Christian practices such as saying you are part of a mysterious 'pre-100 A.D.' Orthodoxy, and continuing to practice Jewish, not Christian, festivals. No Christian I know of, whether of Jewish ancestry or otherwise, builds a booth outside their house for Sukkot, for instance. That's just Jewish. No one refers to the Jewish months. No one denies that Judaizing is a heresy. There's no way a church under the Ecumenical Patriarchate - such as the Greek Orthodox Church in the U.S., for instance- would do this kind of thing. Whether YHD grabbed the EP's name out of a hat just to cover his caboose, or just 'thinks' of himself as Orthodox because he lives near an Orthodox Church, is anyone's guess. But there is a difference between a Messianic Jew and an Orthodox Christian. A Messianic Jew is a Protestant. Like it or not, that is a fact. An Orthodox Christian is not a Protestant. If personal culture is so important, can I come to church in my old high school gym uniform?

There must be a reason you continually bring up things I never said. Either you are a moron, or you just want to continue bearing false witness. Which is it? I guess you have never read the OT? Never heard any of this in Church have you? The month of nisan? I do not need to prove anything to YOU. You keep saying I continue to practice Jewish festivals...that would make me a practicing Jew. I have already told you that I follow Yeshua. I mean do you think Pascha and Pentecost popped out of thin air? They are fulfillments OF THE JEWISH FESTIVALS! How many times must I repeat this to you?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 06:50:49 AM
You don't have to be a Roman or even Italian to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church.

You don't have to be Russian to be a member of the Russian Orthodox Catholic Church.



Yeah, so? My point, as you seem to consistently seem to miss, was that you adopt their customs even though you do not have their background.

You seem to be confused about what customs are and what the Christian Faith is.

Not confused at all. What I am confused about is why this is SO IMPORTANT to all of YOU? We are of the same faith yet it is YOU who are bothered by it...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 06:53:52 AM
There really is nothing to clarify. Understanding and identifying with the Church within the original Judaic context.  I dont have any problems with the Church post 100AD.

If you accept, respect and find good guidance in the whole history of the Orthodox Church including its origins as well as its elaboration through time to this day - then we are brothers and I wish you well.  If something else then we are still brothers (as all men are) and I still wish you well ... even if I don't understand you.  May God have mercy and guide us all.

Thank you  :)
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: LBK on May 08, 2013, 06:57:16 AM
You don't have to be a Roman or even Italian to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church.

You don't have to be Russian to be a member of the Russian Orthodox Catholic Church.



Yeah, so? My point, as you seem to consistently seem to miss, was that you adopt their customs even though you do not have their background.

You seem to be confused about what customs are and what the Christian Faith is.

Not confused at all. What I am confused about is why this is SO IMPORTANT to all of YOU? We are of the same faith yet it is YOU who are bothered by it...

We have no need of recognition of the old Jewish festivals, and we are commanded to NOT celebrate/observe them, as they are deficient and not in keeping with Orthodox belief and teaching. Pity you can't see this.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 07:03:10 AM
It just seems that me BEING Orthodox is what is bothering everyone...

Was the OCA church disturbed by your Jewish worship?  Does your EP church tolerate your Jewish worship?

I skimmed the OCF article you provided.  No mention of former Russian Jews, after becoming Orthodox Christians, retaining patterns of Jewish worship.

Jewish worship...there it is again  ::)

Our Liturgy is "Jewish" worship. That is where it came from and rightfully so since most all the early Orthodox Christians were JEWS. They worshiped in the synagogues and then in house churches. A book you may want to read:

http://www.amazon.com/Orthodox-Worship-Living-Continuity-Synagogue/dp/0937032727
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: biro on May 08, 2013, 07:03:57 AM
Yeah, I think Pentecost just popped out of thin air. Like a mighty rushing wind.

There's a reason we don't call it by the name of the Jewish festival of Shavuot.

It isn't Jewish.

Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 07:05:45 AM
You don't have to be a Roman or even Italian to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church.

You don't have to be Russian to be a member of the Russian Orthodox Catholic Church.



Yeah, so? My point, as you seem to consistently seem to miss, was that you adopt their customs even though you do not have their background.

You seem to be confused about what customs are and what the Christian Faith is.

Not confused at all. What I am confused about is why this is SO IMPORTANT to all of YOU? We are of the same faith yet it is YOU who are bothered by it...

We have no need of recognition of the old Jewish festivals, and we are commanded to NOT celebrate/observe them, as they are deficient and not in keeping with Orthodox belief and teaching. Pity you can't see this.

But we ARE whether you want to admit it or not! Pascha is a direct fulfillment of Yom HaBikkurim...Pentecost was a direct fulfillment of Shavout...they were fulfilled on the EXACT day on the EXACT hour!
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 07:07:02 AM
It just seems that me BEING Orthodox is what is bothering everyone...

No.  What bothers me after reading this thread is that I really wish that you were Orthodox.

Well I am! No "wishing" involved!
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 07:12:50 AM
You don't have to be a Roman or even Italian to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church.

You don't have to be Russian to be a member of the Russian Orthodox Catholic Church.



Yeah, so? My point, as you seem to consistently seem to miss, was that you adopt their customs even though you do not have their background.

You seem to be confused about what customs are and what the Christian Faith is.

Not confused at all. What I am confused about is why this is SO IMPORTANT to all of YOU? We are of the same faith yet it is YOU who are bothered by it...

We have no need of recognition of the old Jewish festivals, and we are commanded to NOT celebrate/observe them, as they are deficient and not in keeping with Orthodox belief and teaching. Pity you can't see this.

Pity it seems you don't understand Christianity let alone Orthodoxy. I have asked ANY of you to ask you priests about this.  ANY of the learned priests will agree with me. Pascha is a DIRECT fulfillment of Yom HaBikkurim and Pentecost DIRECTLY fulfills Shavout. Do agree or not? If you agree then why do you continue to argue with me?

Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 07:19:38 AM
Yeah, I think Pentecost just popped out of thin air. Like a mighty rushing wind.

There's a reason we don't call it by the name of the Jewish festival of Shavuot.

It isn't Jewish.



Well I can see there is no reason to continue conversing with you after a statement like that  :o
Do you even know what Pentecost means? Shavout was the feast of weeks...you know, 50 days after Pascha (Yom Habikkurim)?
maybe you should read this to begin with: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Pentecost
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: LBK on May 08, 2013, 07:30:45 AM
You don't have to be a Roman or even Italian to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church.

You don't have to be Russian to be a member of the Russian Orthodox Catholic Church.



Yeah, so? My point, as you seem to consistently seem to miss, was that you adopt their customs even though you do not have their background.

You seem to be confused about what customs are and what the Christian Faith is.

Not confused at all. What I am confused about is why this is SO IMPORTANT to all of YOU? We are of the same faith yet it is YOU who are bothered by it...

We have no need of recognition of the old Jewish festivals, and we are commanded to NOT celebrate/observe them, as they are deficient and not in keeping with Orthodox belief and teaching. Pity you can't see this.

Pity it seems you don't understand Christianity let alone Orthodoxy. I have asked ANY of you to ask you priests about this.  ANY of the learned priests will agree with me. Pascha is a DIRECT fulfillment of Yom HaBikkurim and Pentecost DIRECTLY fulfills Shavout. Do agree or not? If you agree then why do you continue to argue with me?



I'll say it again: As Orthodox Christians, we have no need of commemorating any Jewish festival, and we are commanded NOT to observe them. They are simply types and shadows, deficient in expressing and proclaiming what the Church teaches and believes.

For someone to cling to the notion of recognizing these deficient festivals and observances in their devotions in any way is either misguided, or a wilful, individualistic act at odds with what the Church has decreed from the very beginning.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 07:38:37 AM
Israel became a nation on Shavout and so did we on Pentecost! It was on the EXACT same day! Jews who had gathered on this day to celebrate Shavout, became the founding members of the Orthodox Church. Also at this time there was a change in the family. While for the most part you had to be physically born to be a part of Israel, God's salvation would now become available to everyone, both Jew and Gentile. Those who believed became spiritually adopted into the family instead of being born into the family. They were "grafted in" through faith in the Jewish Messiah. You can read where the church was born at Shavout/Pentecost (Acts 2). Also read Hebrews 12:18-24.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 07:44:24 AM
You don't have to be a Roman or even Italian to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church.

You don't have to be Russian to be a member of the Russian Orthodox Catholic Church.



Yeah, so? My point, as you seem to consistently seem to miss, was that you adopt their customs even though you do not have their background.

You seem to be confused about what customs are and what the Christian Faith is.

Not confused at all. What I am confused about is why this is SO IMPORTANT to all of YOU? We are of the same faith yet it is YOU who are bothered by it...

We have no need of recognition of the old Jewish festivals, and we are commanded to NOT celebrate/observe them, as they are deficient and not in keeping with Orthodox belief and teaching. Pity you can't see this.

Pity it seems you don't understand Christianity let alone Orthodoxy. I have asked ANY of you to ask you priests about this.  ANY of the learned priests will agree with me. Pascha is a DIRECT fulfillment of Yom HaBikkurim and Pentecost DIRECTLY fulfills Shavout. Do agree or not? If you agree then why do you continue to argue with me?



I'll say it again: As Orthodox Christians, we have no need of commemorating any Jewish festival, and we are commanded NOT to observe them. They are simply types and shadows, deficient in expressing and proclaiming what the Church teaches and believes.

For someone to cling to the notion of recognizing these deficient festivals and observances in their devotions in any way is either misguided, or a wilful, individualistic act at odds with what the Church has decreed from the very beginning.

WE ARE commemorating a Jewish Feast... we call it Pentecost! Like I said Pentecost did not pop out of thin air! PLEASE go talk to your priest! You obviously do not understand where many of the Orthodox feasts came from OR you just like to argue with me  :-*
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: LBK on May 08, 2013, 08:36:24 AM
You don't have to be a Roman or even Italian to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church.

You don't have to be Russian to be a member of the Russian Orthodox Catholic Church.



Yeah, so? My point, as you seem to consistently seem to miss, was that you adopt their customs even though you do not have their background.

You seem to be confused about what customs are and what the Christian Faith is.

Not confused at all. What I am confused about is why this is SO IMPORTANT to all of YOU? We are of the same faith yet it is YOU who are bothered by it...

We have no need of recognition of the old Jewish festivals, and we are commanded to NOT celebrate/observe them, as they are deficient and not in keeping with Orthodox belief and teaching. Pity you can't see this.

Pity it seems you don't understand Christianity let alone Orthodoxy. I have asked ANY of you to ask you priests about this.  ANY of the learned priests will agree with me. Pascha is a DIRECT fulfillment of Yom HaBikkurim and Pentecost DIRECTLY fulfills Shavout. Do agree or not? If you agree then why do you continue to argue with me?



I'll say it again: As Orthodox Christians, we have no need of commemorating any Jewish festival, and we are commanded NOT to observe them. They are simply types and shadows, deficient in expressing and proclaiming what the Church teaches and believes.

For someone to cling to the notion of recognizing these deficient festivals and observances in their devotions in any way is either misguided, or a wilful, individualistic act at odds with what the Church has decreed from the very beginning.

WE ARE commemorating a Jewish Feast... we call it Pentecost! Like I said Pentecost did not pop out of thin air! PLEASE go talk to your priest! You obviously do not understand where many of the Orthodox feasts came from OR you just like to argue with me  :-*

No, we are not commemorating a Jewish feast at Pentecost! I do not need to speak to my priest, I am very familiar with the hymnography and iconography of the feast, both of which express the meaning, significance, and teachings of the feast. I can provide the service texts and icons of the feast to you if you like, as you seem quite unfamiliar with them in your zeal to cling to the old Jewish customs.

Orthodox Pentecost is one of the three Theophanic Orthodox feasts, where all three Persons of the Holy Trinity became manifest (the others being the Baptism of Christ and the Transfiguration of the Lord), and where the Holy Spirit descended upon the disciples.

Where is the Trinitarian content of Shavuot? Where is the descent of the Holy Spirit in Shavuot?

Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 08:46:03 AM
You don't have to be a Roman or even Italian to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church.

You don't have to be Russian to be a member of the Russian Orthodox Catholic Church.



Yeah, so? My point, as you seem to consistently seem to miss, was that you adopt their customs even though you do not have their background.

You seem to be confused about what customs are and what the Christian Faith is.

Not confused at all. What I am confused about is why this is SO IMPORTANT to all of YOU? We are of the same faith yet it is YOU who are bothered by it...

We have no need of recognition of the old Jewish festivals, and we are commanded to NOT celebrate/observe them, as they are deficient and not in keeping with Orthodox belief and teaching. Pity you can't see this.

Pity it seems you don't understand Christianity let alone Orthodoxy. I have asked ANY of you to ask you priests about this.  ANY of the learned priests will agree with me. Pascha is a DIRECT fulfillment of Yom HaBikkurim and Pentecost DIRECTLY fulfills Shavout. Do agree or not? If you agree then why do you continue to argue with me?



I'll say it again: As Orthodox Christians, we have no need of commemorating any Jewish festival, and we are commanded NOT to observe them. They are simply types and shadows, deficient in expressing and proclaiming what the Church teaches and believes.

For someone to cling to the notion of recognizing these deficient festivals and observances in their devotions in any way is either misguided, or a wilful, individualistic act at odds with what the Church has decreed from the very beginning.

WE ARE commemorating a Jewish Feast... we call it Pentecost! Like I said Pentecost did not pop out of thin air! PLEASE go talk to your priest! You obviously do not understand where many of the Orthodox feasts came from OR you just like to argue with me  :-*

No, we are not commemorating a Jewish feast at Pentecost! I do not need to speak to my priest, I am very familiar with the hymnography and iconography of the feast, both of which express the meaning, significance, and teachings of the feast. I can provide the service texts and icons of the feast to you if you like, as you seem quite unfamiliar with them in your zeal to cling to the old Jewish customs.

Orthodox Pentecost is one of the three Theophanic Orthodox feasts, where all three Persons of the Holy Trinity became manifest (the others being the Baptism of Christ and the Transfiguration of the Lord), and where the Holy Spirit descended upon the disciples.

Where is the Trinitarian content of Shavuot? Where is the descent of the Holy Spirit in Shavuot?



Do you not understand the term fulfillment? PENTECOST fulfills SHAVOUT...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: TheTrisagion on May 08, 2013, 08:52:58 AM
If Pentecost fulfills Shavout, then why are you celebrating Shavout?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: LBK on May 08, 2013, 08:54:01 AM
You don't have to be a Roman or even Italian to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church.

You don't have to be Russian to be a member of the Russian Orthodox Catholic Church.



Yeah, so? My point, as you seem to consistently seem to miss, was that you adopt their customs even though you do not have their background.

You seem to be confused about what customs are and what the Christian Faith is.

Not confused at all. What I am confused about is why this is SO IMPORTANT to all of YOU? We are of the same faith yet it is YOU who are bothered by it...

We have no need of recognition of the old Jewish festivals, and we are commanded to NOT celebrate/observe them, as they are deficient and not in keeping with Orthodox belief and teaching. Pity you can't see this.

Pity it seems you don't understand Christianity let alone Orthodoxy. I have asked ANY of you to ask you priests about this.  ANY of the learned priests will agree with me. Pascha is a DIRECT fulfillment of Yom HaBikkurim and Pentecost DIRECTLY fulfills Shavout. Do agree or not? If you agree then why do you continue to argue with me?



I'll say it again: As Orthodox Christians, we have no need of commemorating any Jewish festival, and we are commanded NOT to observe them. They are simply types and shadows, deficient in expressing and proclaiming what the Church teaches and believes.

For someone to cling to the notion of recognizing these deficient festivals and observances in their devotions in any way is either misguided, or a wilful, individualistic act at odds with what the Church has decreed from the very beginning.

WE ARE commemorating a Jewish Feast... we call it Pentecost! Like I said Pentecost did not pop out of thin air! PLEASE go talk to your priest! You obviously do not understand where many of the Orthodox feasts came from OR you just like to argue with me  :-*

No, we are not commemorating a Jewish feast at Pentecost! I do not need to speak to my priest, I am very familiar with the hymnography and iconography of the feast, both of which express the meaning, significance, and teachings of the feast. I can provide the service texts and icons of the feast to you if you like, as you seem quite unfamiliar with them in your zeal to cling to the old Jewish customs.

Orthodox Pentecost is one of the three Theophanic Orthodox feasts, where all three Persons of the Holy Trinity became manifest (the others being the Baptism of Christ and the Transfiguration of the Lord), and where the Holy Spirit descended upon the disciples.

Where is the Trinitarian content of Shavuot? Where is the descent of the Holy Spirit in Shavuot?



Do you not understand the term fulfillment? PENTECOST fulfills SHAVOUT...

And therefore we have no need of Shavuot as Orthodox Christians! We have no need of the Jewish Passover, we have no need of circumcision, we have no need of kosher food laws, we have no need of any of the Jewish festivals you so doggedly cling to in your idiosyncratic take on Christianity.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: LBK on May 08, 2013, 08:54:56 AM
If Pentecost fulfills Shavout, then why are you celebrating Shavout?

We've been waiting for a coherent answer to these sorts of questions for some time now ...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 08:58:07 AM
If Pentecost fulfills Shavout, then why are you celebrating Shavout?

It is the SAME thing, just now it is in the context of Yeshua and the Church. Did you know that at Shavout, Jews decorated the synagogue in green just as we do? It is calculated the same too. Both terms mean 50 or feast of weeks. Pentecost is just the Greek term for it. Pentecost is the old Greek and Latin name for the Jewish harvest festival, or Festival of Weeks...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 09:02:02 AM
If Pentecost fulfills Shavout, then why are you celebrating Shavout?

We've been waiting for a coherent answer to these sorts of questions for some time now ...

I have been waiting for your coherent understanding! yeshua once said...I have not come to abolish the Law and the Prophets, but to FULFILL! I have said NOTHING different than that...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: TheTrisagion on May 08, 2013, 09:02:56 AM
If Pentecost fulfills Shavout, then why are you celebrating Shavout?

It is the SAME thing, just now it is in the context of Yeshua and the Church. Did you know that at Shavout, Jews decorated the synagogue in green just as we do? It is calculated the same too. Both terms mean 50 or feast of weeks. Pentecost is just the Greek term for it. Pentecost is the old Greek and Latin name for the Jewish harvest festival, or Festival of Weeks...

No it is most certainly NOT the same thing.  One is the expectation and the other is the fulfillment.  There were many prophecies of Christ.  Christ was the fulfillment of those prophecies.  That does not mean the prophecies are the Son of God.  While I enjoy all your interesting tidbits and anecdotes about Jewish festivals, that has nothing to do with anticipation versus fulfillment.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 09:03:36 AM
If Pentecost fulfills Shavout, then why are you celebrating Shavout?

Are you serious???  ???
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: TheTrisagion on May 08, 2013, 09:05:09 AM
If Pentecost fulfills Shavout, then why are you celebrating Shavout?

Are you serious???  ???

Yes, please see above regarding anticipation vs fulfillment. BIG difference.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 09:06:19 AM
If Pentecost fulfills Shavout, then why are you celebrating Shavout?

Are you serious???  ???

Yes, please see above regarding anticipation vs fulfillment. BIG difference.

And WHERE have I said otherwise????????
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: LBK on May 08, 2013, 09:09:55 AM
If Pentecost fulfills Shavout, then why are you celebrating Shavout?

Are you serious???  ???

Yes, please see above regarding anticipation vs fulfillment. BIG difference.

And WHERE have I said otherwise????????

In your insistence that the Jewish festivals are the same as the Orthodox feasts, such as here:

If Pentecost fulfills Shavout, then why are you celebrating Shavout?

It is the SAME thing, just now it is in the context of Yeshua and the Church. Did you know that at Shavout, Jews decorated the synagogue in green just as we do? It is calculated the same too. Both terms mean 50 or feast of weeks. Pentecost is just the Greek term for it. Pentecost is the old Greek and Latin name for the Jewish harvest festival, or Festival of Weeks...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: TheTrisagion on May 08, 2013, 09:10:14 AM
If Pentecost fulfills Shavout, then why are you celebrating Shavout?

Are you serious???  ???

Yes, please see above regarding anticipation vs fulfillment. BIG difference.

And WHERE have I said otherwise????????

Quote
It is the SAME thing, just now it is in the context of Yeshua and the Church.

Perhaps there is a difference in language here, but usually in English, same and different mean two opposite things.  ::)
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: TheTrisagion on May 08, 2013, 09:14:45 AM
1. Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law
    Jesus is not SAME as the Law

2. Pentecost is the fulfillment of Shavout
    Pentecost is not SAME as Shavout

3. Pascha is a fulfillment of Yom HaBikkurim
    Pascha is not SAME as Yom HaBikkurim
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 09:16:22 AM
In the Eastern Orthodox Church, Pentecost is one of the Orthodox Great Feasts and is considered to be the highest ranking Great Feast of the Lord, second in rank only to Pascha.  Orthodox temples are often decorated with greenery and flowers on this feast day, and the celebration is intentionally similar to the Jewish holiday of Shavuot, which celebrates the giving of the Mosaic Law. The Apostles were gathered together for Shavout. Hellenistic Jews gave it the name Pentecost (πεντηκοστή, "fiftieth day").


Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 09:18:43 AM
1. Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law
    Jesus is not SAME as the Law

2. Pentecost is the fulfillment of Shavout
    Pentecost is not SAME as Shavout

3. Pascha is a fulfillment of Yom HaBikkurim
    Pascha is not SAME as Yom HaBikkurim

On THE EXACT SAME DAY OF THE JEWISH FEASTS! I have never said anything differently than that!
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: TheTrisagion on May 08, 2013, 09:19:35 AM
In the Eastern Orthodox Church, Pentecost is one of the Orthodox Great Feasts and is considered to be the highest ranking Great Feast of the Lord, second in rank only to Pascha.  Orthodox temples are often decorated with greenery and flowers on this feast day, and the celebration is intentionally similar to the Jewish holiday of Shavuot, which celebrates the giving of the Mosaic Law. The Apostles were gathered together for Shavout. Hellenistic Jews gave it the name Pentecost (πεντηκοστή, "fiftieth day").

How temples and synogouges are decorated have NOTHING to do with whether the holidays are the same or not.  Of course they were gathered for Shavout, we aren't denying that.  We are saying that Shavout was then fulfilled with something greater that we call Pentecost and the attempt to equate Shavout with Pentecost is a logical fallacy.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: TheTrisagion on May 08, 2013, 09:22:55 AM
1. Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law
    Jesus is not SAME as the Law

2. Pentecost is the fulfillment of Shavout
    Pentecost is not SAME as Shavout

3. Pascha is a fulfillment of Yom HaBikkurim
    Pascha is not SAME as Yom HaBikkurim

On THE EXACT SAME DAY OF THE JEWISH FEASTS! I have never said anything differently than that!


Quote
It is the SAME thing, just now it is in the context of Yeshua and the Church.

I refer you again to your quote. You did, you said it was the same thing, not just the same day. 
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: dcommini on May 08, 2013, 09:24:09 AM
If Pentecost fulfills Shavout, then why are you celebrating Shavout?

I tried asking him similar things. I never did get a direct response, other than that we were supposedly commanded to keep the Jewish feasts. I never could figure out why we would want to celebrate a feast that was expecting, and lacking as opposed to the Feast that is on the same day, and that fulfilled the old feast.

I'm not sure about those Orthodox under the JP but do they use different words for the feasts we celebrate? Do they use the original Hebrew words or do they use similar words that the rest of us use? I think seeing or knowing the terms that those under the JP use would probably help to show that we no longer celebrate the Jewish feasts, but fulfilled feasts.

I mean surely those there in Jerusalem would know and understand the Jewish practices better than we would, after all the JP stems from St. James.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 09:26:13 AM
In the Eastern Orthodox Church, Pentecost is one of the Orthodox Great Feasts and is considered to be the highest ranking Great Feast of the Lord, second in rank only to Pascha.  Orthodox temples are often decorated with greenery and flowers on this feast day, and the celebration is intentionally similar to the Jewish holiday of Shavuot, which celebrates the giving of the Mosaic Law. The Apostles were gathered together for Shavout. Hellenistic Jews gave it the name Pentecost (πεντηκοστή, "fiftieth day").

How temples and synogouges are decorated have NOTHING to do with whether the holidays are the same or not.  Of course they were gathered for Shavout, we aren't denying that.  We are saying that Shavout was then fulfilled with something greater that we call Pentecost and the attempt to equate Shavout with Pentecost is a logical fallacy.

 ::)
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 09:28:29 AM
If Pentecost fulfills Shavout, then why are you celebrating Shavout?

I tried asking him similar things. I never did get a direct response, other than that we were supposedly commanded to keep the Jewish feasts. I never could figure out why we would want to celebrate a feast that was expecting, and lacking as opposed to the Feast that is on the same day, and that fulfilled the old feast.

I'm not sure about those Orthodox under the JP but do they use different words for the feasts we celebrate? Do they use the original Hebrew words or do they use similar words that the rest of us use? I think seeing or knowing the terms that those under the JP use would probably help to show that we no longer celebrate the Jewish feasts, but fulfilled feasts.

I mean surely those there in Jerusalem would know and understand the Jewish practices better than we would, after all the JP stems from St. James.

Did I just talk to a wall? You all keep repeating what I just said and then telling me I am wrong LOL!
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: TheTrisagion on May 08, 2013, 09:28:42 AM
Perhaps if you would like to state 2 or 3 clear premises and your conclusion, we can examine them to see if we might understand better.  

Bullet points work for me.  My brain isn't as good as it used to be.  :-*
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: LBK on May 08, 2013, 09:33:38 AM

On THE EXACT SAME DAY OF THE JEWISH FEASTS! I have never said anything differently than that!

Orthodox Pentecost is fifty days after the Resurrection. Shavuot is fifty days after Passover. The Orthodox NEVER celebrate the Resurrection on the same day as the Jewish Passover, so your reckoning is well and truly out.  :police:
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 09:34:34 AM
Perhaps if you would like to state 2 or 3 clear premises and your conclusion, we can examine them to see if we might understand better.  

Bullet points work for me.  My brain isn't as good as it used to be.  :-*

I thought I did already!

Holy Thursday/Good Friday is the fulfillment of Passover NISAN 14.
PASCHA is the fulfillment of Yom HaBikkurim Nisan 16
Pentecost (the Hellenistic JEWISH word for the Hebrew "Shavout") is the fulfillment of Shavout 50 days after Yom HaBikkurim (Pascha) as it states in the Scriptures. The feasts are on the SAME days, are calculated the SAME way by the Church and are fulfilld by Yeshua.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: TheTrisagion on May 08, 2013, 09:38:45 AM
Perhaps if you would like to state 2 or 3 clear premises and your conclusion, we can examine them to see if we might understand better.  

Bullet points work for me.  My brain isn't as good as it used to be.  :-*

I thought I did already!

Holy Thursday/Good Friday is the fulfillment of Passover NISAN 14.
PASCHA is the fulfillment of Yom HaBikkurim Nisan 16
Pentecost (the Hellenistic JEWISH word for the Hebrew "Shavout") is the fulfillment of Shavout 50 days after Yom HaBikkurim (Pascha) as it states in the Scriptures. The feasts are on the SAME days, are calculated the SAME way by the Church and are fulfilld by Yeshua.

OK, I agree with all those premises.  So since we agree on those and you have agreed that fulfillment is not the same as anticipation, we agree that we should celebrate Holy Thursday/Good Friday, Pascha & Pentecost rather than the Jewish holidays because we want to celebrate the fulfillment, not the anticipation any longer.  Correct?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 09:43:47 AM

On THE EXACT SAME DAY OF THE JEWISH FEASTS! I have never said anything differently than that!

Orthodox Pentecost is fifty days after the Resurrection. Shavuot is fifty days after Passover. The Orthodox NEVER celebrate the Resurrection on the same day as the Jewish Passover, so your reckoning is well and truly out.  :police:

No it is NOT. That is how Jews observe it TODAY. This is a flaw in rabbinical Judaism of today. Shavout was to be originally observed ALWAYS on a SUNDAY (the day after the Sabbath).  The counting of the Omer was to occur on the day after the first Sabbath of passover. A SUNDAY. Karite Jews still hold to the orginal.  Lev 23:15-16
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 09:48:45 AM
Perhaps if you would like to state 2 or 3 clear premises and your conclusion, we can examine them to see if we might understand better.  

Bullet points work for me.  My brain isn't as good as it used to be.  :-*

I thought I did already!

Holy Thursday/Good Friday is the fulfillment of Passover NISAN 14.
PASCHA is the fulfillment of Yom HaBikkurim Nisan 16
Pentecost (the Hellenistic JEWISH word for the Hebrew "Shavout") is the fulfillment of Shavout 50 days after Yom HaBikkurim (Pascha) as it states in the Scriptures. The feasts are on the SAME days, are calculated the SAME way by the Church and are fulfilld by Yeshua.

OK, I agree with all those premises.  So since we agree on those and you have agreed that fulfillment is not the same as anticipation, we agree that we should celebrate Holy Thursday/Good Friday, Pascha & Pentecost rather than the Jewish holidays because we want to celebrate the fulfillment, not the anticipation any longer.  Correct?

Of course! But to fully UNDERSTAND them, it is better within the original Jewish context of where they came from.  Orthodoxy came directly from the  Judaism of Yeshua and his messianic Apostles. It is really not a new "religion" but a continuance of it in the correct way...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: biro on May 08, 2013, 09:54:16 AM
The Apostles did not try to convert people to Judaism. Otherwise St. Paul would never have bothered to rebuke St. Peter to his face, or write all those letters about how to convert the Gentiles.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 09:58:21 AM
The Apostles did not try to convert people to Judaism. Otherwise St. Paul would never have bothered to rebuke St. Peter to his face, or write all those letters about how to convert the Gentiles.

Neither am I since I am an Orthodox Christian.  I would like to convert Jews to Orthodoxy but from the reception here I think the Messianics are doing a much better job at it...

Biro, you have continually tried, whether on purpose or not, to twist my words and meanings and have been a thorn in my side. It is quite obvious you have much to learn and I will continue to pray for you.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: TheTrisagion on May 08, 2013, 10:08:44 AM
Quote
Of course! But to fully UNDERSTAND them, it is better within the original Jewish context of where they came from.  Orthodoxy came directly from the  Judaism of Yeshua and his messianic Apostles. It is really not a new "religion" but a continuance of it in the correct way...

Why is celebrating the feasts in the manner of their pre-Messianic form be better than celebrating them in their post-Messiah, fulfilled form?  That seems to make no sense to me...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Cyrillic on May 08, 2013, 10:09:58 AM
The Apostles did not try to convert people to Judaism. Otherwise St. Paul would never have bothered to rebuke St. Peter to his face, or write all those letters about how to convert the Gentiles.

Neither am I since I am an Orthodox Christian.  I would like to convert Jews to Orthodoxy but from the reception here I think the Messianics are doing a much better job at it...

As if Messianics (sp?) are bringing anyone to Christianity. They bring Christians and others to Judaism.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: LBK on May 08, 2013, 10:11:10 AM
Quote
Of course! But to fully UNDERSTAND them, it is better within the original Jewish context of where they came from.  Orthodoxy came directly from the  Judaism of Yeshua and his messianic Apostles. It is really not a new "religion" but a continuance of it in the correct way...

Why is celebrating the feasts in the manner of their pre-Messianic form be better than celebrating them in their post-Messiah, fulfilled form?  That seems to make no sense to me...

Exactly. Unfortunately, our Judaizing friend can't, or won't, see it.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: LBK on May 08, 2013, 10:16:09 AM
YeshuaHaDerekh, do you observe/celebrate the feasts of Theophany (Baptism of Christ), the Nativity of the Mother of God, the Dormition of the Mother of God, and the Exaltation of the Cross? What is your view of these feasts?

Also, do you venerate icons?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: TheTrisagion on May 08, 2013, 10:20:15 AM
The Apostles did not try to convert people to Judaism. Otherwise St. Paul would never have bothered to rebuke St. Peter to his face, or write all those letters about how to convert the Gentiles.

Neither am I since I am an Orthodox Christian.  I would like to convert Jews to Orthodoxy but from the reception here I think the Messianics are doing a much better job at it...

As if Messianics (sp?) are bringing anyone to Christianity. They bring Christians and others to Judaism.

TRUE STATEMENT
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Marc1152 on May 08, 2013, 10:27:39 AM
It's one thing to have Jewish cultural practices, such as, perhaps, use of the Hebrew language. It's another to have Messianic Jewish, i.e. Protestant Christian practices such as saying you are part of a mysterious 'pre-100 A.D.' Orthodoxy, and continuing to practice Jewish, not Christian, festivals. No Christian I know of, whether of Jewish ancestry or otherwise, builds a booth outside their house for Sukkot, for instance. That's just Jewish. No one refers to the Jewish months. No one denies that Judaizing is a heresy. There's no way a church under the Ecumenical Patriarchate - such as the Greek Orthodox Church in the U.S., for instance- would do this kind of thing. Whether YHD grabbed the EP's name out of a hat just to cover his caboose, or just 'thinks' of himself as Orthodox because he lives near an Orthodox Church, is anyone's guess. But there is a difference between a Messianic Jew and an Orthodox Christian. A Messianic Jew is a Protestant. Like it or not, that is a fact. An Orthodox Christian is not a Protestant. If personal culture is so important, can I come to church in my old high school gym uniform?

There must be a reason you continually bring up things I never said. Either you are a moron, or you just want to continue bearing false witness. Which is it? I guess you have never read the OT? Never heard any of this in Church have you? The month of nisan? I do not need to prove anything to YOU. You keep saying I continue to practice Jewish festivals...that would make me a practicing Jew. I have already told you that I follow Yeshua. I mean do you think Pascha and Pentecost popped out of thin air? They are fulfillments OF THE JEWISH FESTIVALS! How many times must I repeat this to you?

Question. Are you a Jew by ancestry? In other words, is your Mother a Jew?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Marc1152 on May 08, 2013, 10:30:41 AM
The Apostles did not try to convert people to Judaism. Otherwise St. Paul would never have bothered to rebuke St. Peter to his face, or write all those letters about how to convert the Gentiles.

Neither am I since I am an Orthodox Christian.  I would like to convert Jews to Orthodoxy but from the reception here I think the Messianics are doing a much better job at it...

Biro, you have continually tried, whether on purpose or not, to twist my words and meanings and have been a thorn in my side. It is quite obvious you have much to learn and I will continue to pray for you.

I doubt you are really an Orthodox Christian in the sense that you belong to a canonical jurisdiction that is in communion with the others.

Oh and there are several people here who are Jews. Are you?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on May 08, 2013, 10:41:41 AM
Since this is no longer about what to do with a prayer shawl, I figured one of the Mod's would've stepped long ago.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 10:44:27 AM
The Apostles did not try to convert people to Judaism. Otherwise St. Paul would never have bothered to rebuke St. Peter to his face, or write all those letters about how to convert the Gentiles.

Neither am I since I am an Orthodox Christian.  I would like to convert Jews to Orthodoxy but from the reception here I think the Messianics are doing a much better job at it...

Biro, you have continually tried, whether on purpose or not, to twist my words and meanings and have been a thorn in my side. It is quite obvious you have much to learn and I will continue to pray for you.

I doubt you are really an Orthodox Christian in the sense that you belong to a canonical jurisdiction that is in communion with the others.


Doubt all you want!
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: LBK on May 08, 2013, 10:46:17 AM
YeshuaHaDerekh, do you observe/celebrate the feasts of Theophany (Baptism of Christ), the Nativity of the Mother of God, the Dormition of the Mother of God, and the Exaltation of the Cross? What is your view of these feasts?

Also, do you venerate icons?

*bump*
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 10:47:37 AM
YeshuaHaDerekh, do you observe/celebrate the feasts of Theophany (Baptism of Christ), the Nativity of the Mother of God, the Dormition of the Mother of God, and the Exaltation of the Cross? What is your view of these feasts?

Also, do you venerate icons?

I consider them extra-biblical feasts but yes I have celebrated them. Venerate icons...yes
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 10:49:14 AM
The Apostles did not try to convert people to Judaism. Otherwise St. Paul would never have bothered to rebuke St. Peter to his face, or write all those letters about how to convert the Gentiles.

Neither am I since I am an Orthodox Christian.  I would like to convert Jews to Orthodoxy but from the reception here I think the Messianics are doing a much better job at it...

As if Messianics (sp?) are bringing anyone to Christianity. They bring Christians and others to Judaism.

Rabbinical Jews do not believe Yeshua is Moshiach...Messianics do
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 10:51:51 AM
Quote
Of course! But to fully UNDERSTAND them, it is better within the original Jewish context of where they came from.  Orthodoxy came directly from the  Judaism of Yeshua and his messianic Apostles. It is really not a new "religion" but a continuance of it in the correct way...

Why is celebrating the feasts in the manner of their pre-Messianic form be better than celebrating them in their post-Messiah, fulfilled form?  That seems to make no sense to me...

See, you are doing it again! WHEN and WHERE did I EVER say in their "PRE-MESSIANIC" form?????????????
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: LBK on May 08, 2013, 10:52:24 AM
YeshuaHaDerekh, do you observe/celebrate the feasts of Theophany (Baptism of Christ), the Nativity of the Mother of God, the Dormition of the Mother of God, and the Exaltation of the Cross? What is your view of these feasts?

Also, do you venerate icons?

I consider them extra-biblical feasts but yes I have celebrated them. Venerate icons...yes

You speak of these feasts in the past tense. Does this mean you no longer observe or celebrate them? And what is the significance to you of calling them "extra-biblical"?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Schultz on May 08, 2013, 10:52:38 AM
YeshuaHaDerekh, do you observe/celebrate the feasts of Theophany (Baptism of Christ), the Nativity of the Mother of God, the Dormition of the Mother of God, and the Exaltation of the Cross? What is your view of these feasts?

Also, do you venerate icons?

I consider them extra-biblical feasts but yes I have celebrated them. Venerate icons...yes

Theophany is "extra-biblical"? 
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: LBK on May 08, 2013, 10:53:42 AM
YeshuaHaDerekh, do you observe/celebrate the feasts of Theophany (Baptism of Christ), the Nativity of the Mother of God, the Dormition of the Mother of God, and the Exaltation of the Cross? What is your view of these feasts?

Also, do you venerate icons?

I consider them extra-biblical feasts but yes I have celebrated them. Venerate icons...yes

Theophany is "extra-biblical"? 

I wasn't going to say it ...  :angel:
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Marc1152 on May 08, 2013, 10:54:01 AM
The Apostles did not try to convert people to Judaism. Otherwise St. Paul would never have bothered to rebuke St. Peter to his face, or write all those letters about how to convert the Gentiles.

Neither am I since I am an Orthodox Christian.  I would like to convert Jews to Orthodoxy but from the reception here I think the Messianics are doing a much better job at it...

Biro, you have continually tried, whether on purpose or not, to twist my words and meanings and have been a thorn in my side. It is quite obvious you have much to learn and I will continue to pray for you.

I doubt you are really an Orthodox Christian in the sense that you belong to a canonical jurisdiction that is in communion with the others.


Doubt all you want!

Quiz:

I belong to a canonical Orthodox Jurisdiction

Yes/No

I am a Jew by birth

Yes/No
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 10:56:15 AM
YeshuaHaDerekh, do you observe/celebrate the feasts of Theophany (Baptism of Christ), the Nativity of the Mother of God, the Dormition of the Mother of God, and the Exaltation of the Cross? What is your view of these feasts?

Also, do you venerate icons?

I consider them extra-biblical feasts but yes I have celebrated them. Venerate icons...yes

You speak of these feasts in the past tense. Does this mean you no longer observe or celebrate them? And what is the significance to you of calling them "extra-biblical"?

Strain at a gnat but swallow a camel! Well they ARE extrabiblical. They are traditional feasts made by the Church. Their dates do not correspond to any biblical feasts...that is all I mean. Quit trying to read in your preconceived notions...  ::)
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: LBK on May 08, 2013, 10:56:49 AM
Quote
Of course! But to fully UNDERSTAND them, it is better within the original Jewish context of where they came from.  Orthodoxy came directly from the  Judaism of Yeshua and his messianic Apostles. It is really not a new "religion" but a continuance of it in the correct way...

Why is celebrating the feasts in the manner of their pre-Messianic form be better than celebrating them in their post-Messiah, fulfilled form?  That seems to make no sense to me...

See, you are doing it again! WHEN and WHERE did I EVER say in their "PRE-MESSIANIC" form?????????????

You're the one who wrote that Orthodox Pentecost and Jewish Shavuot are the same.  >:(
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Marc1152 on May 08, 2013, 10:57:32 AM
The Apostles did not try to convert people to Judaism. Otherwise St. Paul would never have bothered to rebuke St. Peter to his face, or write all those letters about how to convert the Gentiles.

Neither am I since I am an Orthodox Christian.  I would like to convert Jews to Orthodoxy but from the reception here I think the Messianics are doing a much better job at it...

As if Messianics (sp?) are bringing anyone to Christianity. They bring Christians and others to Judaism.

Rabbinical Jews do not believe Yeshua is Moshiach...Messianics do

Not really good enough

Arians can say they believe in Jesus. So can Nestorians and Gnostics and Mormons.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: LBK on May 08, 2013, 10:58:05 AM
YeshuaHaDerekh, do you observe/celebrate the feasts of Theophany (Baptism of Christ), the Nativity of the Mother of God, the Dormition of the Mother of God, and the Exaltation of the Cross? What is your view of these feasts?

Also, do you venerate icons?

I consider them extra-biblical feasts but yes I have celebrated them. Venerate icons...yes

You speak of these feasts in the past tense. Does this mean you no longer observe or celebrate them? And what is the significance to you of calling them "extra-biblical"?

Strain at a gnat but swallow a camel! Well they ARE extrabiblical. They are traditional feasts made by the Church. Their dates do not correspond to any biblical feasts...that is all I mean. Quit trying to read in your preconceived notions...  ::)

What then of your referring to them in the past tense, as in "I have celebrated them"? Does this mean you no longer do?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 10:58:18 AM
YeshuaHaDerekh, do you observe/celebrate the feasts of Theophany (Baptism of Christ), the Nativity of the Mother of God, the Dormition of the Mother of God, and the Exaltation of the Cross? What is your view of these feasts?

Also, do you venerate icons?

I consider them extra-biblical feasts but yes I have celebrated them. Venerate icons...yes

Theophany is "extra-biblical"? 


Extrabiblical meaning it was not commanded to be celebrated. A date was selected and there it is.  
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 10:59:21 AM
Quote
Of course! But to fully UNDERSTAND them, it is better within the original Jewish context of where they came from.  Orthodoxy came directly from the  Judaism of Yeshua and his messianic Apostles. It is really not a new "religion" but a continuance of it in the correct way...

Why is celebrating the feasts in the manner of their pre-Messianic form be better than celebrating them in their post-Messiah, fulfilled form?  That seems to make no sense to me...

See, you are doing it again! WHEN and WHERE did I EVER say in their "PRE-MESSIANIC" form?????????????

You're the one who wrote that Orthodox Pentecost and Jewish Shavuot are the same.  >:(

Still straining at that gnat I see...how does that camel taste?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: LBK on May 08, 2013, 11:01:08 AM
Quote
Of course! But to fully UNDERSTAND them, it is better within the original Jewish context of where they came from.  Orthodoxy came directly from the  Judaism of Yeshua and his messianic Apostles. It is really not a new "religion" but a continuance of it in the correct way...

Why is celebrating the feasts in the manner of their pre-Messianic form be better than celebrating them in their post-Messiah, fulfilled form?  That seems to make no sense to me...

See, you are doing it again! WHEN and WHERE did I EVER say in their "PRE-MESSIANIC" form?????????????

You're the one who wrote that Orthodox Pentecost and Jewish Shavuot are the same.  >:(

Still straining at that gnat I see...how does that camel taste?

You wrote those words, Yesh, not me. Don't blame me for them.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 11:04:02 AM

You wrote: Not really good enough. Arians can say they believe in Jesus. So can Nestorians and Gnostics and Mormons.

We were not discussing that. What was said was that "They bring Christians and others to Judaism."  So do Nestorians and Arians "bring Christians and others to Judaism"???





Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 11:06:12 AM
Quote
Of course! But to fully UNDERSTAND them, it is better within the original Jewish context of where they came from.  Orthodoxy came directly from the  Judaism of Yeshua and his messianic Apostles. It is really not a new "religion" but a continuance of it in the correct way...

Why is celebrating the feasts in the manner of their pre-Messianic form be better than celebrating them in their post-Messiah, fulfilled form?  That seems to make no sense to me...

See, you are doing it again! WHEN and WHERE did I EVER say in their "PRE-MESSIANIC" form?????????????

You're the one who wrote that Orthodox Pentecost and Jewish Shavuot are the same.  >:(

Still straining at that gnat I see...how does that camel taste?

You wrote those words, Yesh, not me. Don't blame me for them.

I blame you for twisting something I already explained.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: LBK on May 08, 2013, 11:08:23 AM
Quote
Of course! But to fully UNDERSTAND them, it is better within the original Jewish context of where they came from.  Orthodoxy came directly from the  Judaism of Yeshua and his messianic Apostles. It is really not a new "religion" but a continuance of it in the correct way...

Why is celebrating the feasts in the manner of their pre-Messianic form be better than celebrating them in their post-Messiah, fulfilled form?  That seems to make no sense to me...

See, you are doing it again! WHEN and WHERE did I EVER say in their "PRE-MESSIANIC" form?????????????

You're the one who wrote that Orthodox Pentecost and Jewish Shavuot are the same.  >:(

Still straining at that gnat I see...how does that camel taste?

You wrote those words, Yesh, not me. Don't blame me for them.

I blame you for twisting something I already explained.

Nonsense, your words in that post are plain as day. It's bad form to blame others for your error.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Marc1152 on May 08, 2013, 11:08:44 AM
Let's just jump to the chase.

It appears to me that while you call yourself "Orthodox" you are not a member of any canonical Orthodox Church.

It appears to me that you are a Gentile who wishes to convert Jews ( by somehow mixing the two religions). Yet, there are  at least three Jews who have posted in this thread who are telling you, a Gentile, not to do that. The Orthodox Church and it's faithful are the new Israel and that Judaizing is a heresy.

 
 
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Marc1152 on May 08, 2013, 11:11:25 AM

You wrote: Not really good enough. Arians can say they believe in Jesus. So can Nestorians and Gnostics and Mormons.

We were not discussing that. What was said was that "They bring Christians and others to Judaism."  So do Nestorians and Arians "bring Christians and others to Judaism"???







You said Messianic Jews beleive in "Jesus".

I am pointing out that this is incomplete information. Mormon's can make the same claim.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: LBK on May 08, 2013, 11:17:43 AM
YeshuaHaDerekh, do you observe/celebrate the feasts of Theophany (Baptism of Christ), the Nativity of the Mother of God, the Dormition of the Mother of God, and the Exaltation of the Cross? What is your view of these feasts?

Also, do you venerate icons?

I consider them extra-biblical feasts but yes I have celebrated them. Venerate icons...yes

You speak of these feasts in the past tense. Does this mean you no longer observe or celebrate them? And what is the significance to you of calling them "extra-biblical"?

Strain at a gnat but swallow a camel! Well they ARE extrabiblical. They are traditional feasts made by the Church. Their dates do not correspond to any biblical feasts...that is all I mean. Quit trying to read in your preconceived notions...  ::)

What then of your referring to them in the past tense, as in "I have celebrated them"? Does this mean you no longer do?


*bump*
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 11:23:35 AM
Let's just jump to the chase.

It appears to me that while you call yourself "Orthodox" you are not a member of any canonical Orthodox Church.

It appears to me that you are a Gentile who wishes to convert Jews ( by somehow mixing the two religions). Yet, there are  at least three Jews who have posted in this thread who are telling you, a Gentile, not to do that. The Orthodox Church and it's faithful are the new Israel and that Judaizing is a heresy.
 

I have already told you I AM A MEMBER. Why do I have to always keep repeating myself to you? Cant you read? Do you need glasses?  ::)
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 11:27:13 AM

You wrote: Not really good enough. Arians can say they believe in Jesus. So can Nestorians and Gnostics and Mormons.

We were not discussing that. What was said was that "They bring Christians and others to Judaism."  So do Nestorians and Arians "bring Christians and others to Judaism"???



You said Messianic Jews beleive in "Jesus".

I am pointing out that this is incomplete information. Mormon's can make the same claim.

Messianic Jews DO believe in Jesus...true statement.  Rabbinical Jews do not...true statement.
Sure mormans can make the same claim.  Yet you have still to prove that ANY of these "bring Christians and others to JUDAISM"...
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 11:30:35 AM
Quote
Of course! But to fully UNDERSTAND them, it is better within the original Jewish context of where they came from.  Orthodoxy came directly from the  Judaism of Yeshua and his messianic Apostles. It is really not a new "religion" but a continuance of it in the correct way...

Why is celebrating the feasts in the manner of their pre-Messianic form be better than celebrating them in their post-Messiah, fulfilled form?  That seems to make no sense to me...

See, you are doing it again! WHEN and WHERE did I EVER say in their "PRE-MESSIANIC" form?????????????

You're the one who wrote that Orthodox Pentecost and Jewish Shavuot are the same.  >:(

Still straining at that gnat I see...how does that camel taste?

You wrote those words, Yesh, not me. Don't blame me for them.

I blame you for twisting something I already explained.

Nonsense, your words in that post are plain as day. It's bad form to blame others for your error.

YOUR error is that you can't comprehend what you read...or you just do not want to. I blame you for twisting something I already explained.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 11:32:16 AM
The Apostles did not try to convert people to Judaism. Otherwise St. Paul would never have bothered to rebuke St. Peter to his face, or write all those letters about how to convert the Gentiles.

Neither am I since I am an Orthodox Christian.  I would like to convert Jews to Orthodoxy but from the reception here I think the Messianics are doing a much better job at it...

Biro, you have continually tried, whether on purpose or not, to twist my words and meanings and have been a thorn in my side. It is quite obvious you have much to learn and I will continue to pray for you.

I doubt you are really an Orthodox Christian in the sense that you belong to a canonical jurisdiction that is in communion with the others.


Doubt all you want!

Quiz:

I belong to a canonical Orthodox Jurisdiction

Yes/No

I am a Jew by birth

Yes/No

Quiz:
Can you read?

Yes/No
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: LBK on May 08, 2013, 11:33:39 AM
The Apostles did not try to convert people to Judaism. Otherwise St. Paul would never have bothered to rebuke St. Peter to his face, or write all those letters about how to convert the Gentiles.

Neither am I since I am an Orthodox Christian.  I would like to convert Jews to Orthodoxy but from the reception here I think the Messianics are doing a much better job at it...

Biro, you have continually tried, whether on purpose or not, to twist my words and meanings and have been a thorn in my side. It is quite obvious you have much to learn and I will continue to pray for you.

I doubt you are really an Orthodox Christian in the sense that you belong to a canonical jurisdiction that is in communion with the others.


Doubt all you want!

Quiz:

I belong to a canonical Orthodox Jurisdiction

Yes/No

I am a Jew by birth

Yes/No

Quiz:
Can you read?

Yes/No

You're not answering Marc's questions, particularly the second one.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: LBK on May 08, 2013, 11:34:31 AM
YeshuaHaDerekh, do you observe/celebrate the feasts of Theophany (Baptism of Christ), the Nativity of the Mother of God, the Dormition of the Mother of God, and the Exaltation of the Cross? What is your view of these feasts?

Also, do you venerate icons?

I consider them extra-biblical feasts but yes I have celebrated them. Venerate icons...yes

You speak of these feasts in the past tense. Does this mean you no longer observe or celebrate them? And what is the significance to you of calling them "extra-biblical"?

Strain at a gnat but swallow a camel! Well they ARE extrabiblical. They are traditional feasts made by the Church. Their dates do not correspond to any biblical feasts...that is all I mean. Quit trying to read in your preconceived notions...  ::)

What then of your referring to them in the past tense, as in "I have celebrated them"? Does this mean you no longer do?


*bump*

Any chance of an answer here?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 11:38:44 AM
The Apostles did not try to convert people to Judaism. Otherwise St. Paul would never have bothered to rebuke St. Peter to his face, or write all those letters about how to convert the Gentiles.

Neither am I since I am an Orthodox Christian.  I would like to convert Jews to Orthodoxy but from the reception here I think the Messianics are doing a much better job at it...

Biro, you have continually tried, whether on purpose or not, to twist my words and meanings and have been a thorn in my side. It is quite obvious you have much to learn and I will continue to pray for you.

I doubt you are really an Orthodox Christian in the sense that you belong to a canonical jurisdiction that is in communion with the others.


Doubt all you want!

Quiz:

I belong to a canonical Orthodox Jurisdiction

Yes/No

I am a Jew by birth

Yes/No

Quiz:
Can you read?

Yes/No

You're not answering the questions, particularly the second one.


I already have in the past...I think you all just like to argue and like to think of yourselves as some sort of Orthodox elitists.  Just wondering, how many of you are cradle and how many are converts? Doesn't matter...yep, just like it does not matter if I am Jewish by birth  or not.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 11:41:02 AM
YeshuaHaDerekh, do you observe/celebrate the feasts of Theophany (Baptism of Christ), the Nativity of the Mother of God, the Dormition of the Mother of God, and the Exaltation of the Cross? What is your view of these feasts?

Also, do you venerate icons?

I consider them extra-biblical feasts but yes I have celebrated them. Venerate icons...yes

You speak of these feasts in the past tense. Does this mean you no longer observe or celebrate them? And what is the significance to you of calling them "extra-biblical"?

Strain at a gnat but swallow a camel! Well they ARE extrabiblical. They are traditional feasts made by the Church. Their dates do not correspond to any biblical feasts...that is all I mean. Quit trying to read in your preconceived notions...  ::)

What then of your referring to them in the past tense, as in "I have celebrated them"? Does this mean you no longer do?


*bump*

Any chance of an answer here?

 ::) What do you think?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: LBK on May 08, 2013, 11:43:42 AM
YeshuaHaDerekh, do you observe/celebrate the feasts of Theophany (Baptism of Christ), the Nativity of the Mother of God, the Dormition of the Mother of God, and the Exaltation of the Cross? What is your view of these feasts?

Also, do you venerate icons?

I consider them extra-biblical feasts but yes I have celebrated them. Venerate icons...yes

You speak of these feasts in the past tense. Does this mean you no longer observe or celebrate them? And what is the significance to you of calling them "extra-biblical"?

Strain at a gnat but swallow a camel! Well they ARE extrabiblical. They are traditional feasts made by the Church. Their dates do not correspond to any biblical feasts...that is all I mean. Quit trying to read in your preconceived notions...  ::)

What then of your referring to them in the past tense, as in "I have celebrated them"? Does this mean you no longer do?


*bump*

Any chance of an answer here?

 ::) What do you think?

It's not a matter of what I think. I'm asking you a question, in plain English.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 11:47:03 AM
YeshuaHaDerekh, do you observe/celebrate the feasts of Theophany (Baptism of Christ), the Nativity of the Mother of God, the Dormition of the Mother of God, and the Exaltation of the Cross? What is your view of these feasts?

Also, do you venerate icons?

I consider them extra-biblical feasts but yes I have celebrated them. Venerate icons...yes

You speak of these feasts in the past tense. Does this mean you no longer observe or celebrate them? And what is the significance to you of calling them "extra-biblical"?

Strain at a gnat but swallow a camel! Well they ARE extrabiblical. They are traditional feasts made by the Church. Their dates do not correspond to any biblical feasts...that is all I mean. Quit trying to read in your preconceived notions...  ::)

What then of your referring to them in the past tense, as in "I have celebrated them"? Does this mean you no longer do?


*bump*

Any chance of an answer here?

 ::) What do you think?

It's not a matter of what I think. I'm asking you a question, in plain English.

Well I can't say "I AM celebrating" them since they are not being held today...sheeesh!  ::)
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: LBK on May 08, 2013, 11:51:38 AM
YeshuaHaDerekh, do you observe/celebrate the feasts of Theophany (Baptism of Christ), the Nativity of the Mother of God, the Dormition of the Mother of God, and the Exaltation of the Cross? What is your view of these feasts?

Also, do you venerate icons?

I consider them extra-biblical feasts but yes I have celebrated them. Venerate icons...yes

You speak of these feasts in the past tense. Does this mean you no longer observe or celebrate them? And what is the significance to you of calling them "extra-biblical"?

Strain at a gnat but swallow a camel! Well they ARE extrabiblical. They are traditional feasts made by the Church. Their dates do not correspond to any biblical feasts...that is all I mean. Quit trying to read in your preconceived notions...  ::)

What then of your referring to them in the past tense, as in "I have celebrated them"? Does this mean you no longer do?


*bump*

Any chance of an answer here?

 ::) What do you think?

It's not a matter of what I think. I'm asking you a question, in plain English.

Well I can't say "I AM celebrating" them since they are not being held today...sheeesh!  ::)

OK, then, let me rephrase the question to avoid semantic games: Do you observe/celebrate these feasts on their appointed days according to the Orthodox liturgical calendar? What about the feastdays of individual saints? Do you observe them as well?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Cyrillic on May 08, 2013, 11:57:51 AM
Well I can't say "I AM celebrating" them since they are not being held today...sheeesh!  ::)

I'm not as proficient in the English language as others but I suppose that "I celebrate" would be a better way to state it.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 12:25:50 PM
YeshuaHaDerekh, do you observe/celebrate the feasts of Theophany (Baptism of Christ), the Nativity of the Mother of God, the Dormition of the Mother of God, and the Exaltation of the Cross? What is your view of these feasts?

Also, do you venerate icons?

I consider them extra-biblical feasts but yes I have celebrated them. Venerate icons...yes

You speak of these feasts in the past tense. Does this mean you no longer observe or celebrate them? And what is the significance to you of calling them "extra-biblical"?

Strain at a gnat but swallow a camel! Well they ARE extrabiblical. They are traditional feasts made by the Church. Their dates do not correspond to any biblical feasts...that is all I mean. Quit trying to read in your preconceived notions...  ::)

What then of your referring to them in the past tense, as in "I have celebrated them"? Does this mean you no longer do?


*bump*

Any chance of an answer here?

 ::) What do you think?

It's not a matter of what I think. I'm asking you a question, in plain English.

Well I can't say "I AM celebrating" them since they are not being held today...sheeesh!  ::)

OK, then, let me rephrase the question to avoid semantic games: Do you observe/celebrate these feasts on their appointed days according to the Orthodox liturgical calendar? What about the feastdays of individual saints? Do you observe them as well?

Yes I have.  Individual Saint's days, not regularly, but not many do...unless it is their own personal Saint's name day.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Schultz on May 08, 2013, 12:37:51 PM
YeshuaHaDerekh, do you observe/celebrate the feasts of Theophany (Baptism of Christ), the Nativity of the Mother of God, the Dormition of the Mother of God, and the Exaltation of the Cross? What is your view of these feasts?

Also, do you venerate icons?

I consider them extra-biblical feasts but yes I have celebrated them. Venerate icons...yes

You speak of these feasts in the past tense. Does this mean you no longer observe or celebrate them? And what is the significance to you of calling them "extra-biblical"?

Strain at a gnat but swallow a camel! Well they ARE extrabiblical. They are traditional feasts made by the Church. Their dates do not correspond to any biblical feasts...that is all I mean. Quit trying to read in your preconceived notions...  ::)

What then of your referring to them in the past tense, as in "I have celebrated them"? Does this mean you no longer do?


*bump*

Any chance of an answer here?

 ::) What do you think?

It's not a matter of what I think. I'm asking you a question, in plain English.

Well I can't say "I AM celebrating" them since they are not being held today...sheeesh!  ::)

OK, then, let me rephrase the question to avoid semantic games: Do you observe/celebrate these feasts on their appointed days according to the Orthodox liturgical calendar? What about the feastdays of individual saints? Do you observe them as well?

Yes I have.  Individual Saint's days, not regularly, but not many do...unless it is their own personal Saint's name day.

Will you celebrate these feasts on their appointed days according to the Orthodox liturgical calendar in the future?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 01:04:03 PM
YeshuaHaDerekh, do you observe/celebrate the feasts of Theophany (Baptism of Christ), the Nativity of the Mother of God, the Dormition of the Mother of God, and the Exaltation of the Cross? What is your view of these feasts?

Also, do you venerate icons?

I consider them extra-biblical feasts but yes I have celebrated them. Venerate icons...yes

You speak of these feasts in the past tense. Does this mean you no longer observe or celebrate them? And what is the significance to you of calling them "extra-biblical"?

Strain at a gnat but swallow a camel! Well they ARE extrabiblical. They are traditional feasts made by the Church. Their dates do not correspond to any biblical feasts...that is all I mean. Quit trying to read in your preconceived notions...  ::)

What then of your referring to them in the past tense, as in "I have celebrated them"? Does this mean you no longer do?


*bump*

Any chance of an answer here?

 ::) What do you think?

It's not a matter of what I think. I'm asking you a question, in plain English.

Well I can't say "I AM celebrating" them since they are not being held today...sheeesh!  ::)

OK, then, let me rephrase the question to avoid semantic games: Do you observe/celebrate these feasts on their appointed days according to the Orthodox liturgical calendar? What about the feastdays of individual saints? Do you observe them as well?

Yes I have.  Individual Saint's days, not regularly, but not many do...unless it is their own personal Saint's name day.

Will you celebrate these feasts on their appointed days according to the Orthodox liturgical calendar in the future?

Oh come on now...this is getting silly... ::)
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Cyrillic on May 08, 2013, 01:05:24 PM
Oh come on now...this is getting silly... ::)

Everybody but you is silly....
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: TheTrisagion on May 08, 2013, 01:21:25 PM
Quote
Oh come on now...this is getting silly... 

It is only silly because your answers are so evasive. If you did not rely so much on twisting words around and just come out with a forthright comprehensive explanation of your beliefs, if they are blessed by your parish, and what holidays you are actually celebrating, it would eliminate the need for silly questions.
 
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Marc1152 on May 08, 2013, 01:28:04 PM
Let's just jump to the chase.

It appears to me that while you call yourself "Orthodox" you are not a member of any canonical Orthodox Church.

It appears to me that you are a Gentile who wishes to convert Jews ( by somehow mixing the two religions). Yet, there are  at least three Jews who have posted in this thread who are telling you, a Gentile, not to do that. The Orthodox Church and it's faithful are the new Israel and that Judaizing is a heresy.
 

I have already told you I AM A MEMBER. Why do I have to always keep repeating myself to you? Cant you read? Do you need glasses?  ::)

Because it is not believable that a Priest would allow you to pursue a heresy such as Judaizing.

What Orthodox jurisdiction do you belong to and how have they allowed you to continue in communion considering the idea's you have mentioned here?
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Феофан on May 08, 2013, 01:32:53 PM
Some comedian used to say he wasn't really a Jew, just a little Jew-ish !   :)

I'm not implying pre100-man is Jewish (as if that were a bad thing), I'm just joking around.

Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Schultz on May 08, 2013, 01:33:11 PM
YeshuaHaDerekh, do you observe/celebrate the feasts of Theophany (Baptism of Christ), the Nativity of the Mother of God, the Dormition of the Mother of God, and the Exaltation of the Cross? What is your view of these feasts?

Also, do you venerate icons?

I consider them extra-biblical feasts but yes I have celebrated them. Venerate icons...yes

You speak of these feasts in the past tense. Does this mean you no longer observe or celebrate them? And what is the significance to you of calling them "extra-biblical"?

Strain at a gnat but swallow a camel! Well they ARE extrabiblical. They are traditional feasts made by the Church. Their dates do not correspond to any biblical feasts...that is all I mean. Quit trying to read in your preconceived notions...  ::)

What then of your referring to them in the past tense, as in "I have celebrated them"? Does this mean you no longer do?


*bump*

Any chance of an answer here?

 ::) What do you think?

It's not a matter of what I think. I'm asking you a question, in plain English.

Well I can't say "I AM celebrating" them since they are not being held today...sheeesh!  ::)

OK, then, let me rephrase the question to avoid semantic games: Do you observe/celebrate these feasts on their appointed days according to the Orthodox liturgical calendar? What about the feastdays of individual saints? Do you observe them as well?

Yes I have.  Individual Saint's days, not regularly, but not many do...unless it is their own personal Saint's name day.

Will you celebrate these feasts on their appointed days according to the Orthodox liturgical calendar in the future?

Oh come on now...this is getting silly... ::)

Since it took you a lot longer to type that out than a simple Yes or No, I'm going to assume the answer is No.

Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Schultz on May 08, 2013, 01:34:53 PM
I just mentioned this thread to an Orthodox Jewish co-worker, a Reformed Jewish co-worker, and a Gentile co-worker who is married to an Orthodox Jew.

Every single one of them said the exact same thing and it rhymes with the word, "pole."
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: dcommini on May 08, 2013, 01:49:23 PM
Since this is no longer about what to do with a prayer shawl, I figured one of the Mod's would've stepped long ago.

As would I, especially since the matter is now resolved. However I am just rolling with it, it's not everyday I start a thread that goes past 2 pages (or even one).
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: rakovsky on May 08, 2013, 02:13:59 PM
I just mentioned this thread to an Orthodox Jewish co-worker, a Reformed Jewish co-worker, and a Gentile co-worker who is married to an Orthodox Jew.

Every single one of them said the exact same thing and it rhymes with the word, "pole."
People should respect other people's national and religious customs.

But religions should be able to decide which religious customs to include themselves based on those customs' religious meaning.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 02:16:06 PM
YeshuaHaDerekh, do you observe/celebrate the feasts of Theophany (Baptism of Christ), the Nativity of the Mother of God, the Dormition of the Mother of God, and the Exaltation of the Cross? What is your view of these feasts?

Also, do you venerate icons?

I consider them extra-biblical feasts but yes I have celebrated them. Venerate icons...yes

You speak of these feasts in the past tense. Does this mean you no longer observe or celebrate them? And what is the significance to you of calling them "extra-biblical"?

Strain at a gnat but swallow a camel! Well they ARE extrabiblical. They are traditional feasts made by the Church. Their dates do not correspond to any biblical feasts...that is all I mean. Quit trying to read in your preconceived notions...  ::)

What then of your referring to them in the past tense, as in "I have celebrated them"? Does this mean you no longer do?


*bump*

Any chance of an answer here?

 ::) What do you think?

It's not a matter of what I think. I'm asking you a question, in plain English.

Well I can't say "I AM celebrating" them since they are not being held today...sheeesh!  ::)

OK, then, let me rephrase the question to avoid semantic games: Do you observe/celebrate these feasts on their appointed days according to the Orthodox liturgical calendar? What about the feastdays of individual saints? Do you observe them as well?

Yes I have.  Individual Saint's days, not regularly, but not many do...unless it is their own personal Saint's name day.

Will you celebrate these feasts on their appointed days according to the Orthodox liturgical calendar in the future?

Oh come on now...this is getting silly... ::)

Since it took you a lot longer to type that out than a simple Yes or No, I'm going to assume the answer is No.


You can ASSume anything you want.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: TheTrisagion on May 08, 2013, 02:16:44 PM
I just mentioned this thread to an Orthodox Jewish co-worker, a Reformed Jewish co-worker, and a Gentile co-worker who is married to an Orthodox Jew.

Every single one of them said the exact same thing and it rhymes with the word, "pole."

He is a mole?

I knew he has a funny looking face!  8)
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Schultz on May 08, 2013, 02:18:44 PM
YeshuaHaDerekh, do you observe/celebrate the feasts of Theophany (Baptism of Christ), the Nativity of the Mother of God, the Dormition of the Mother of God, and the Exaltation of the Cross? What is your view of these feasts?

Also, do you venerate icons?

I consider them extra-biblical feasts but yes I have celebrated them. Venerate icons...yes

You speak of these feasts in the past tense. Does this mean you no longer observe or celebrate them? And what is the significance to you of calling them "extra-biblical"?

Strain at a gnat but swallow a camel! Well they ARE extrabiblical. They are traditional feasts made by the Church. Their dates do not correspond to any biblical feasts...that is all I mean. Quit trying to read in your preconceived notions...  ::)

What then of your referring to them in the past tense, as in "I have celebrated them"? Does this mean you no longer do?


*bump*

Any chance of an answer here?

 ::) What do you think?

It's not a matter of what I think. I'm asking you a question, in plain English.

Well I can't say "I AM celebrating" them since they are not being held today...sheeesh!  ::)

OK, then, let me rephrase the question to avoid semantic games: Do you observe/celebrate these feasts on their appointed days according to the Orthodox liturgical calendar? What about the feastdays of individual saints? Do you observe them as well?

Yes I have.  Individual Saint's days, not regularly, but not many do...unless it is their own personal Saint's name day.

Will you celebrate these feasts on their appointed days according to the Orthodox liturgical calendar in the future?

Oh come on now...this is getting silly... ::)

Since it took you a lot longer to type that out than a simple Yes or No, I'm going to assume the answer is No.


You can ASSume anything you want.

You could easily help me to not assume, but you choose not to and hide behind deliberate obfuscation and evasion, so I tell you, "Good day and God bless."
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 02:19:33 PM
Let's just jump to the chase.

It appears to me that while you call yourself "Orthodox" you are not a member of any canonical Orthodox Church.

It appears to me that you are a Gentile who wishes to convert Jews ( by somehow mixing the two religions). Yet, there are  at least three Jews who have posted in this thread who are telling you, a Gentile, not to do that. The Orthodox Church and it's faithful are the new Israel and that Judaizing is a heresy.
 

I have already told you I AM A MEMBER. Why do I have to always keep repeating myself to you? Cant you read? Do you need glasses?  ::)

Because it is not believable that a Priest would allow you to pursue a heresy such as Judaizing.

What Orthodox jurisdiction do you belong to and how have they allowed you to continue in communion considering the idea's you have mentioned here?

You do know what insanity is...repeating the same mistake over and over expecting it to change.  :laugh:
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 02:20:28 PM
YeshuaHaDerekh, do you observe/celebrate the feasts of Theophany (Baptism of Christ), the Nativity of the Mother of God, the Dormition of the Mother of God, and the Exaltation of the Cross? What is your view of these feasts?

Also, do you venerate icons?

I consider them extra-biblical feasts but yes I have celebrated them. Venerate icons...yes

You speak of these feasts in the past tense. Does this mean you no longer observe or celebrate them? And what is the significance to you of calling them "extra-biblical"?

Strain at a gnat but swallow a camel! Well they ARE extrabiblical. They are traditional feasts made by the Church. Their dates do not correspond to any biblical feasts...that is all I mean. Quit trying to read in your preconceived notions...  ::)

What then of your referring to them in the past tense, as in "I have celebrated them"? Does this mean you no longer do?


*bump*

Any chance of an answer here?

 ::) What do you think?

It's not a matter of what I think. I'm asking you a question, in plain English.

Well I can't say "I AM celebrating" them since they are not being held today...sheeesh!  ::)

OK, then, let me rephrase the question to avoid semantic games: Do you observe/celebrate these feasts on their appointed days according to the Orthodox liturgical calendar? What about the feastdays of individual saints? Do you observe them as well?

Yes I have.  Individual Saint's days, not regularly, but not many do...unless it is their own personal Saint's name day.

Will you celebrate these feasts on their appointed days according to the Orthodox liturgical calendar in the future?

Oh come on now...this is getting silly... ::)

Since it took you a lot longer to type that out than a simple Yes or No, I'm going to assume the answer is No.


You can ASSume anything you want.

You could easily help me to not assume, but you choose not to and hide behind deliberate obfuscation and evasion, so I tell you, "Good day and God bless."

No, I just find it silly to have to answer the same question 50 times.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: mike on May 08, 2013, 02:21:05 PM
Calm down YOU ALL, return to the topic and start to behave like you are after kindergarten graduation or I'm locking it permanently and start to throw some dots.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Yeshua HaDerekh on May 08, 2013, 02:23:28 PM
Quote
Oh come on now...this is getting silly... 

It is only silly because your answers are so evasive. If you did not rely so much on twisting words around and just come out with a forthright comprehensive explanation of your beliefs, if they are blessed by your parish, and what holidays you are actually celebrating, it would eliminate the need for silly questions.
 


YES is being evasive? Bullet points are being evasive LOL?????????
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: mike on May 08, 2013, 02:24:19 PM
Locking it for 24 hours to cooldown.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: mike on May 11, 2013, 09:30:59 AM
Thread unlocked.

Mind my previous warning here. No childish jokes and scuffles.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: rakovsky on June 14, 2013, 02:23:58 AM
I would be interested in readers' reactions to St. Jerome's use of Jesus' comment on the prayer shawls. Matthew 23 records Jesus' comment about the pharisees:

Jesus didn't say that the tassels themselves were bad. The tassels were commanded to be worn in Deuteronomy 22:12 ("Make tassels on the four corners of the cloak you wear.") Rather, Jesus focused on teaching humility, and he viewed the pharisees as having pride in a place of prominence.

I would like to ask people's views about St. Jerome's observation on this topic. He wrote in a letter to Brother Anthony about this: "Iudaicus populus primas sibi cathedras et salutationes in foro uindicans deputato antea in stillam situlae gentili populo succedente deletes est."

My best guess is that this says: "The gentile people, who were assigned previously to a drop in the bucket, succeeded the Jewish people, who claimed first place in the seats and greetings in the squares, and which is deleted."

The full passage in Jerome's letter runs as follows:
Quote
While the disciples were disputing concerning precedence our Lord, the teacher of humility, took a little child and said: “Except ye be converted and become as little children ye cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.” And lest He should seem to preach more than he practised, He fulfilled His own precept in His life. For He washed His disciples’ feet, he received the traitor with a kiss, He conversed with the woman of Samaria, He spoke of the kingdom of heaven with Mary at His feet, and when He rose again from the dead He showed Himself first to some poor women. Pride is opposed to humility, and through it Satan lost his eminence as an archangel.

The Jewish people perished in their pride, for while they claimed the chief seats and salutations in the market place, (Matthew 23:6-7) they were superseded by the Gentiles, who had before been counted as “a drop of a bucket.” (Isaiah 40:15) Two poor fishermen, Peter and James, were sent to confute the sophists and the wise men of the world. As the Scripture says: “God resisteth the proud and giveth grace to the humble.” Think, brother, what a sin it must be which has God for its opponent. In the Gospel the Pharisee is rejected because of his pride, and the publican is accepted because of his humility.
http://st-takla.org/books/en/ecf/206/2060023.html#fn_164

Another translation says:
Quote
For, while they claimed that they deserved the most important seats and greetings in the market place, the Gentiles, who used to be considered “a drop in a bucket,” dis­placed them.
http://www.ancientfuturefaithnetwork.org/chapel/jesus-humility
However, wouldn't you say that "succeed" is a much better translation for St. Jerome's word succedente, than supersede or displace?

In any case, let's get down to what St. Jerome meant.

St. Jerome learned Hebrew from Jewish Christians who he described in a positive way. He mentioned those who were still following Moses' laws, which would have included the tassels. And he translated the Old Testament from Hebrew, rather than use the Greek LXX. So he is not particularly prejudiced.

Further, the context of the passage seems to be that he is making practical observations about the results of pride. Besides that, he obviously cannot mean that the Jewish people "perished" or were "deleted" in a literal sense, because many of them were still around when he wrote. On a sidenote, I find the mention of a people being "deleted" confusing as it comes from Jerome who was sympathetic to Jewish Christians. Bishop Epiphanius came from a Jewish background and was St. Jerome's mentor.

In any case, doesn't St. Jerome mean that the gentile people have succeeded to the position formerly held by the Jewish people. Namely, while the lowly gentiles were previously assigned to be just a drop in God's spiritual community, they now generally fill the leading roles in the Church?

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRre6jIGHOueq37ETAadBOQph79Z5lr6yxvgWw_J-kwpt9uvlOIFg)
Drops of stars in God's bucket.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: rakovsky on June 14, 2013, 11:16:13 AM
Perhaps one explanation for Jerome's words about the people as deleted is that it better translates as "is deleting"? In other words, St. Jerome observed that the people were declining at that point, not that within Christianity they had already been permanently deleted.
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Altar Server on June 14, 2013, 01:48:02 PM
You don't have to be a Roman or even Italian to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church.

You don't have to be Russian to be a member of the Russian Orthodox Catholic Church.



Yeah, so? My point, as you seem to consistently seem to miss, was that you adopt their customs even though you do not have their background.

You seem to be confused about what customs are and what the Christian Faith is.

Not confused at all. What I am confused about is why this is SO IMPORTANT to all of YOU? We are of the same faith yet it is YOU who are bothered by it...

We have no need of recognition of the old Jewish festivals, and we are commanded to NOT celebrate/observe them, as they are deficient and not in keeping with Orthodox belief and teaching. Pity you can't see this.

Pity it seems you don't understand Christianity let alone Orthodoxy. I have asked ANY of you to ask you priests about this.  ANY of the learned priests will agree with me. Pascha is a DIRECT fulfillment of Yom HaBikkurim and Pentecost DIRECTLY fulfills Shavout. Do agree or not? If you agree then why do you continue to argue with me?


Yes Pascha is the fulfillment of Yom Habikkurim and Passover and Pentecost is the fullfilment of Shavout so as a Christian you should celebrate Pascha and Pentecost, not You Habikkurim, Passover, and Shavout(that is our point)
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: TheTrisagion on June 14, 2013, 01:51:07 PM
Oh no, I thought this thread had finally died.  :(
Title: Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
Post by: Velsigne on June 15, 2013, 03:26:51 AM
Yeah, no kidding.  What is there to say about some person's mother giving them a gift they are not sure they want.  Not much.  Pretty soon it will be winter, and give it to the homeless.