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Moderated Forums => Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion => Orthodox-Protestant Discussion => Topic started by: yeshuaisiam on January 31, 2013, 12:31:49 AM

Title: History needed
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 31, 2013, 12:31:49 AM
I hear many protestants argue about praying to saints and the Theotokos.

Can somebody give me any references to any early Christian writings between 100-250 A.D. that showed prayer to saints or the Theotokos (even asking for intercession).  Especially something in their writings.  Just if you have something handy...
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: ialmisry on January 31, 2013, 12:33:47 AM
I hear many protestants argue about praying to saints and the Theotokos.

Can somebody give me any references to any early Christian writings between 100-250 A.D. that showed prayer to saints or the Theotokos (even asking for intercession).  Especially something in their writings.  Just if you have something handy...
The Martyrdom of Polycarp c. 150 mentions it in several places.
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: Nephi on January 31, 2013, 12:42:21 AM
Quote
Under your
mercy
we take refuge,
Mother of God! Our
prayers, do not despise
in necessities,
but from the danger
deliver us,
only pure,
only blessed.
At the latest, a 3rd century prayer to the Theotokos (http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2011/02/sub-tuum-praesidium.html).
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: Asteriktos on January 31, 2013, 12:49:58 AM
The catacombs apparently have such prayers inscribed on them, and they are supposed to be from fairly early. Unfortunately I don't have a reference to give for that (I remember reading it, but I forget where). A couple other references (besides the ones mentioned in previous posts):

“in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]." - St. Clement of Alexandria, Miscellanies 7, 12

"not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels... as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" Origen, Prayer 11

Also see here (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13089.msg609627.html#msg609627).
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: Romaios on January 31, 2013, 01:24:46 AM
http://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2011/07/29/prayers-to-saints-in-the-pre-nicene-era/ (http://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2011/07/29/prayers-to-saints-in-the-pre-nicene-era/)
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: Symeon77 on January 31, 2013, 01:35:42 AM
I hear many protestants argue about praying to saints and the Theotokos.

Can somebody give me any references to any early Christian writings between 100-250 A.D. that showed prayer to saints or the Theotokos (even asking for intercession).  Especially something in their writings.  Just if you have something handy...

Off the top of my head, there is this:

From St. Gregory the Wonder-worker (Thaumaturgus), Bishop of NeoCaesarea (+270)

Homily concerning the Holy Mother of God:


http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/gregory_thaumaturgus_homily.htm

EDIT: Perhaps not directly pertinent, since it does not show evidence of intercessory prayer but there is certainly a level of veneration here that would make certain Protestants uncomfortable in their presumptions.

Title: Re: History needed
Post by: JamesR on February 01, 2013, 12:19:55 AM
The Liturgy of St. James, written sometime in the 1st century.
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: walter1234 on February 11, 2013, 11:53:08 AM
Veneration of saints and intercesson prayers are not found in New testament. The Scriptures do not teach much about intercession of saints.

I am interested whether there is any recorded teachings about veneration of saints and intercession prayers around 1st century/ around A.D.100?

Title: Re: History needed
Post by: Arachne on February 11, 2013, 12:10:13 PM
Veneration of saints and intercesson prayers are not found in New testament. The Scriptures do not teach much about intercession of saints.

I am interested whether there is recorded teachings about veneration of saints and intercession prayers around 1st century/ around A.D.100?

If you read the thread from the beginning, there are several instances listed.
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: walter1234 on February 11, 2013, 12:15:54 PM
I hear many protestants argue about praying to saints and the Theotokos.

Can somebody give me any references to any early Christian writings between 100-250 A.D. that showed prayer to saints or the Theotokos (even asking for intercession).  Especially something in their writings.  Just if you have something handy...
The Martyrdom of Polycarp c. 150 mentions it in several places.

What is The Martyrdom of Polycarp ? What are the teachings about intercession of saints in The Martyrdom of Polycarp?

The Liturgy of St. James, written sometime in the 1st century.

What does the Liturgy of St James teach about intercession of saints? Can you explain it more detail?
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: primuspilus on February 11, 2013, 12:51:37 PM
Quote
"This is God's prophet Jeremiah, who loves his brethren and fervently prays for his people and their holy city."
2 Maccabees 15:14
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: Arachne on February 11, 2013, 12:54:31 PM
What does the Liturgy of St James teach about intercession of saints? Can you explain it more detail?

Quote
Let us call to mind our most holy, pure, most glorious and blessed Lady, Mother of God and Ever-Virgin Mary, of the holy, glorious Prophet, Forerunner and Baptist John, of the holy, godlike and all-praised Apostles, of the glorious Prophets and victorious Martyrs and all the holy and just, that by their prayers and intercessions we may all find mercy.

...

O God, save your people and bless your inheritance. Visit you world with mercy and pity. Exalt the horn of Christians by the power of the precious and life-giving Cross, at the intercession of our all-pure and blessed Lady, Mother of God, of the Forerunner, your Apostles and all your Saints, we implore you, most merciful Lord, hear us as we pray, and have mercy.

...

Commemorating our all holy, pure, most glorious and blessed Lady, Mother of God and Ever-Virgin Mary, of the holy and blessed John, the glorious Prophet, Forerunner and Baptist, of the holy Apostles, of Stephen the Archdeacon and Protomartyr, of Moses, Aaron , Elias, Elissaios, Samuel, David, Daniel, the Prophets and of the Holy and Just, that by their prayers and intercessions we may all find mercy.
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: primuspilus on February 11, 2013, 12:55:33 PM
Shepard of Hermas wouldnt hurt either.
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: Cyrillic on February 11, 2013, 12:55:58 PM
The Liturgy of St. James, written sometime in the 1st century.

It's riddled with 5th-6th century Christological language...
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: walter1234 on February 11, 2013, 01:27:07 PM
The Liturgy of St. James, written sometime in the 1st century.

It's riddled with 5th-6th century Christological language...

You mean the Liturgy of St. James had been modified by the Christians in 5th-6th century?
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: Cyrillic on February 11, 2013, 01:33:17 PM
The Liturgy of St. James, written sometime in the 1st century.

It's riddled with 5th-6th century Christological language...

You mean the Liturgy of St. James had been modified by the Christians in 5th-6th century?

Yes. It even includes the Trisagion which dates from the 5th century.
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: sheenj on February 11, 2013, 01:38:14 PM
The Liturgy of St. James, written sometime in the 1st century.

It's riddled with 5th-6th century Christological language...

You mean the Liturgy of St. James had been modified by the Christians in 5th-6th century?

Yes. It even includes the Trisagion which dates from the 5th century.

??? You sure about that? Fr. Peter seems to think it dates a lot earlier, at least the early 4th century and possibly earlier.
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: Cyrillic on February 11, 2013, 01:42:32 PM
Parts are older, of course. But the Liturgy of St. James, at least the Greek recension, has a lot of interpolations.
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 11, 2013, 02:23:15 PM
What does the Liturgy of St James teach about intercession of saints? Can you explain it more detail?

Quote
Let us call to mind our most holy, pure, most glorious and blessed Lady, Mother of God and Ever-Virgin Mary, of the holy, glorious Prophet, Forerunner and Baptist John, of the holy, godlike and all-praised Apostles, of the glorious Prophets and victorious Martyrs and all the holy and just, that by their prayers and intercessions we may all find mercy.

...

O God, save your people and bless your inheritance. Visit you world with mercy and pity. Exalt the horn of Christians by the power of the precious and life-giving Cross, at the intercession of our all-pure and blessed Lady, Mother of God, of the Forerunner, your Apostles and all your Saints, we implore you, most merciful Lord, hear us as we pray, and have mercy.

...

Commemorating our all holy, pure, most glorious and blessed Lady, Mother of God and Ever-Virgin Mary, of the holy and blessed John, the glorious Prophet, Forerunner and Baptist, of the holy Apostles, of Stephen the Archdeacon and Protomartyr, of Moses, Aaron , Elias, Elissaios, Samuel, David, Daniel, the Prophets and of the Holy and Just, that by their prayers and intercessions we may all find mercy.
Some time within the next 72 hours, would you please post a link to the source from which you copied this? Thanks.

- PeterTheAleut
Moderator
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: Arachne on February 11, 2013, 03:06:12 PM
What does the Liturgy of St James teach about intercession of saints? Can you explain it more detail?

Quote
Let us call to mind our most holy, pure, most glorious and blessed Lady, Mother of God and Ever-Virgin Mary, of the holy, glorious Prophet, Forerunner and Baptist John, of the holy, godlike and all-praised Apostles, of the glorious Prophets and victorious Martyrs and all the holy and just, that by their prayers and intercessions we may all find mercy.

...

O God, save your people and bless your inheritance. Visit you world with mercy and pity. Exalt the horn of Christians by the power of the precious and life-giving Cross, at the intercession of our all-pure and blessed Lady, Mother of God, of the Forerunner, your Apostles and all your Saints, we implore you, most merciful Lord, hear us as we pray, and have mercy.

...

Commemorating our all holy, pure, most glorious and blessed Lady, Mother of God and Ever-Virgin Mary, of the holy and blessed John, the glorious Prophet, Forerunner and Baptist, of the holy Apostles, of Stephen the Archdeacon and Protomartyr, of Moses, Aaron , Elias, Elissaios, Samuel, David, Daniel, the Prophets and of the Holy and Just, that by their prayers and intercessions we may all find mercy.
Some time within the next 72 hours, would you please post a link to the source from which you copied this? Thanks.

- PeterTheAleut
Moderator


Right here: http://www.anastasis.org.uk/lit-james.htm
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 11, 2013, 03:38:34 PM
What does the Liturgy of St James teach about intercession of saints? Can you explain it more detail?

Quote
Let us call to mind our most holy, pure, most glorious and blessed Lady, Mother of God and Ever-Virgin Mary, of the holy, glorious Prophet, Forerunner and Baptist John, of the holy, godlike and all-praised Apostles, of the glorious Prophets and victorious Martyrs and all the holy and just, that by their prayers and intercessions we may all find mercy.

...

O God, save your people and bless your inheritance. Visit you world with mercy and pity. Exalt the horn of Christians by the power of the precious and life-giving Cross, at the intercession of our all-pure and blessed Lady, Mother of God, of the Forerunner, your Apostles and all your Saints, we implore you, most merciful Lord, hear us as we pray, and have mercy.

...

Commemorating our all holy, pure, most glorious and blessed Lady, Mother of God and Ever-Virgin Mary, of the holy and blessed John, the glorious Prophet, Forerunner and Baptist, of the holy Apostles, of Stephen the Archdeacon and Protomartyr, of Moses, Aaron , Elias, Elissaios, Samuel, David, Daniel, the Prophets and of the Holy and Just, that by their prayers and intercessions we may all find mercy.
Some time within the next 72 hours, would you please post a link to the source from which you copied this? Thanks.

- PeterTheAleut
Moderator


Right here: http://www.anastasis.org.uk/lit-james.htm
OK. Thanks. :)
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: walter1234 on February 12, 2013, 10:36:07 AM
It seems that the Liturge of St. Jame cannot be used to support  the intercession of the saints is one of the practice in early Chrisitianity.

Is there any other stronger reference which show that   the practice of intercession of saints is the practice of early Chrisitianity in 1st-2nd century?
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: Arachne on February 12, 2013, 10:56:36 AM
http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/invocationofsaints.aspx
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: Cyrillic on February 12, 2013, 11:06:39 AM
This one is from around 250:

Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy" -St. Cyprian, Letters 56[60]:5

 
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: walter1234 on February 12, 2013, 11:17:10 AM
A.D 250 is already in 3rd century....
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: Cyrillic on February 12, 2013, 11:19:54 AM
There are actually very few writings from before 250AD and most of them were apologetic, that is, works written to defend the faith against the heathens and the Jews. Even so, 2 Maccabees, a book in Scripture, already contained the intercession of the saints and so do Revelations.
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: walter1234 on February 12, 2013, 11:31:47 AM
There are actually very few writings from before 250AD and most of them were apologetic, that is, works written to defend the faith against the heathens and the Jews. Even so, 2 Maccabees, a book in Scripture, already contained the intercession of the saints and so do Revelations.
Would the Jews offer the intercession prayers to the prophets, like Moses, Davids,etc?
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: Cyrillic on February 12, 2013, 11:33:20 AM
There are actually very few writings from before 250AD and most of them were apologetic, that is, works written to defend the faith against the heathens and the Jews. Even so, 2 Maccabees, a book in Scripture, already contained the intercession of the saints and so do Revelations.
Would the Jews offer the intercession prayers to the prophets, like Moses, Davids,etc?

Chasidic Jews do. It's called tzadik .
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: Asteriktos on February 12, 2013, 11:38:25 AM
There are actually very few writings from before 250AD and most of them were apologetic, that is, works written to defend the faith against the heathens and the Jews. Even so, 2 Maccabees, a book in Scripture, already contained the intercession of the saints and so do Revelations.
Would the Jews offer the intercession prayers to the prophets, like Moses, Davids,etc?

In biblical times? No. Unless you mean Christian Jews in New Testament times, then yes.
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: Ansgar on February 12, 2013, 11:42:11 AM
There are actually very few writings from before 250AD and most of them were apologetic, that is, works written to defend the faith against the heathens and the Jews. Even so, 2 Maccabees, a book in Scripture, already contained the intercession of the saints and so do Revelations.
Would the Jews offer the intercession prayers to the prophets, like Moses, Davids,etc?

Chasidic Jews do. It's called tzadik .
Isn't tzadik just a title given to righteous persons?
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: walter1234 on February 12, 2013, 11:43:33 AM
There are actually very few writings from before 250AD and most of them were apologetic, that is, works written to defend the faith against the heathens and the Jews. Even so, 2 Maccabees, a book in Scripture, already contained the intercession of the saints and so do Revelations.
Would the Jews offer the intercession prayers to the prophets, like Moses, Davids,etc?

In biblical times? No. Unless you mean Christian Jews in New Testament times, then yes.
What is your meaning of 'bibical time' ?  ???
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: Cyrillic on February 12, 2013, 11:45:21 AM
There are actually very few writings from before 250AD and most of them were apologetic, that is, works written to defend the faith against the heathens and the Jews. Even so, 2 Maccabees, a book in Scripture, already contained the intercession of the saints and so do Revelations.
Would the Jews offer the intercession prayers to the prophets, like Moses, Davids,etc?

Chasidic Jews do. It's called tzadik .
Isn't tzadik just a title given to righteous persons?

You're right. My bad. But the Chasidic Jews ask them to interceed, I think.
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: Asteriktos on February 12, 2013, 11:45:58 AM
There are actually very few writings from before 250AD and most of them were apologetic, that is, works written to defend the faith against the heathens and the Jews. Even so, 2 Maccabees, a book in Scripture, already contained the intercession of the saints and so do Revelations.
Would the Jews offer the intercession prayers to the prophets, like Moses, Davids,etc?

In biblical times? No. Unless you mean Christian Jews in New Testament times, then yes.
What is your meaning of 'bibical time' ?  ???

Up through, say, the 1st century BC, at the very least. Probably longer for members of Judaism, whereas not for Christians.
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: Ansgar on February 12, 2013, 11:50:02 AM
There are actually very few writings from before 250AD and most of them were apologetic, that is, works written to defend the faith against the heathens and the Jews. Even so, 2 Maccabees, a book in Scripture, already contained the intercession of the saints and so do Revelations.
Would the Jews offer the intercession prayers to the prophets, like Moses, Davids,etc?

Chasidic Jews do. It's called tzadik .
Isn't tzadik just a title given to righteous persons?

You're right. My bad. But the Chasidic Jews ask them to interceed, I think.
That might be, I'm really no expert.
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: Cyrillic on February 12, 2013, 11:54:45 AM
There are actually very few writings from before 250AD and most of them were apologetic, that is, works written to defend the faith against the heathens and the Jews. Even so, 2 Maccabees, a book in Scripture, already contained the intercession of the saints and so do Revelations.
Would the Jews offer the intercession prayers to the prophets, like Moses, Davids,etc?

Chasidic Jews do. It's called tzadik .
Isn't tzadik just a title given to righteous persons?

You're right. My bad. But the Chasidic Jews ask them to interceed, I think.
That might be, I'm really no expert.

Neither am I, but Wikipedia told me that they do  :)
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: Ansgar on February 12, 2013, 11:57:17 AM
There are actually very few writings from before 250AD and most of them were apologetic, that is, works written to defend the faith against the heathens and the Jews. Even so, 2 Maccabees, a book in Scripture, already contained the intercession of the saints and so do Revelations.
Would the Jews offer the intercession prayers to the prophets, like Moses, Davids,etc?

Chasidic Jews do. It's called tzadik .
Isn't tzadik just a title given to righteous persons?

You're right. My bad. But the Chasidic Jews ask them to interceed, I think.
That might be, I'm really no expert.

Neither am I, but Wikipedia told me that they do  :)
My source too  :)

Maybe Tallitot can help us.
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: walter1234 on February 12, 2013, 11:58:36 AM
There are actually very few writings from before 250AD and most of them were apologetic, that is, works written to defend the faith against the heathens and the Jews. Even so, 2 Maccabees, a book in Scripture, already contained the intercession of the saints and so do Revelations.
Would the Jews offer the intercession prayers to the prophets, like Moses, Davids,etc?

In biblical times? No. Unless you mean Christian Jews in New Testament times, then yes.
What is your meaning of 'bibical time' ?  ???

Up through, say, the 1st century BC, at the very least. Probably longer for members of Judaism, whereas not for Christians.
Jews did offer the intercession prayer to prophets in New Testament time. And when Jesus became the flesh and saw Jews had this practice,He didn't blamed them?
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: Asteriktos on February 12, 2013, 12:01:31 PM
There are actually very few writings from before 250AD and most of them were apologetic, that is, works written to defend the faith against the heathens and the Jews. Even so, 2 Maccabees, a book in Scripture, already contained the intercession of the saints and so do Revelations.
Would the Jews offer the intercession prayers to the prophets, like Moses, Davids,etc?

In biblical times? No. Unless you mean Christian Jews in New Testament times, then yes.
What is your meaning of 'bibical time' ?  ???

Up through, say, the 1st century BC, at the very least. Probably longer for members of Judaism, whereas not for Christians.
Jews did offer the intercession prayer to prophets in New Testament time. And when Jesus became the flesh and saw Jews had this practice,He didn't blamed them?

As far as I know they didn't--or at least it's not mentioned in Scripture so far as I know. What is mentioned in Scripture are saints in heaven interceding for us. But I don't know of a passage which takes the next logical step and has us asking them to intercede for us (ie. "praying to them").
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: walter1234 on February 12, 2013, 12:04:45 PM
There are actually very few writings from before 250AD and most of them were apologetic, that is, works written to defend the faith against the heathens and the Jews. Even so, 2 Maccabees, a book in Scripture, already contained the intercession of the saints and so do Revelations.
Would the Jews offer the intercession prayers to the prophets, like Moses, Davids,etc?

In biblical times? No. Unless you mean Christian Jews in New Testament times, then yes.
What is your meaning of 'bibical time' ?  ???

Up through, say, the 1st century BC, at the very least. Probably longer for members of Judaism, whereas not for Christians.
Jews did offer the intercession prayer to prophets in New Testament time. And when Jesus became the flesh and saw Jews had this practice,He didn't blamed them?

As far as I know they didn't--or at least it's not mentioned in Scripture so far as I know. What is mentioned in Scripture are saints in heaven interceding for us. But I don't know of a passage which takes the next logical step and has us asking them to intercede for us (ie. "praying to them").
The Apostles also did not make any intercession prayer in Book of Act....  :-\ :'(
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: Cyrillic on February 12, 2013, 12:08:20 PM

The Apostles also did not make any intercession prayer in Book of Act....  :-\ :'(


Why would that matter? There's a lot of doctrine that isn't in the Book of Acts.
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: Asteriktos on February 12, 2013, 01:49:27 PM
This is one of those areas where buying into sola scriptura (the Orthodox version or the Protestant one) can do a good deal of harm.
Title: Re: History needed
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 12, 2013, 02:12:15 PM
There are actually very few writings from before 250AD and most of them were apologetic, that is, works written to defend the faith against the heathens and the Jews. Even so, 2 Maccabees, a book in Scripture, already contained the intercession of the saints and so do Revelations.
Would the Jews offer the intercession prayers to the prophets, like Moses, Davids,etc?

In biblical times? No. Unless you mean Christian Jews in New Testament times, then yes.
What is your meaning of 'bibical time' ?  ???

Up through, say, the 1st century BC, at the very least. Probably longer for members of Judaism, whereas not for Christians.
Jews did offer the intercession prayer to prophets in New Testament time. And when Jesus became the flesh and saw Jews had this practice,He didn't blamed them?

As far as I know they didn't--or at least it's not mentioned in Scripture so far as I know. What is mentioned in Scripture are saints in heaven interceding for us. But I don't know of a passage which takes the next logical step and has us asking them to intercede for us (ie. "praying to them").
The Apostles also did not make any intercession prayer in Book of Act....  :-\ :'(
This argument from silence does not prove that the Apostles did not make intercessory prayer; it only shows that, if they did, the author of Acts never recorded it.