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Moderated Forums => Free-For-All => Non-Religious Topics => Topic started by: Jetavan on January 29, 2013, 09:22:59 AM

Title: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Jetavan on January 29, 2013, 09:22:59 AM
Quote
The Boy Scout of America [BSA] is considering (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57566239/boy-scouts-reconsidering-stance-on-gay-members/) ending its longstanding national membership restrictions based on sexual orientation.

Under the change now being discussed, the different religious and civic groups that sponsor Scout units would be able to decide for themselves how to address the issue — either maintaining an exclusion of gays or opening up their membership.

One Catholic commentator (http://davidgibson.religionnews.com/2013/01/28/so-long-catholic-boy-scouts/) predicted that if the BSA go through with this, then the BSA would be excluded from Catholic parishes, since to sponsor a BSA unit would be to cooperate with a group that supports what is considered an immoral position.

Do Orthodox parishes have BSA units, and would this potential change affect Orthodox-BSA relationships?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Αριστοκλής on January 29, 2013, 09:29:49 AM
My GOA parish did, but that was nearly a half-century ago though. I'll check later to see if it is still active. It was a very large troop back in the early 60's.

No way to answer your second question from here.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Iconodule on January 29, 2013, 10:32:59 AM
The BSA currently allows Muslims, Protestants, Jews and Buddhists to join. Does that mean that Catholic churches that host BSA troops are endorsing those positions?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Jetavan on January 29, 2013, 10:42:27 AM
The BSA currently allows Muslims, Protestants, Jews and Buddhists to join. Does that mean that Catholic churches that host BSA troops are endorsing those positions?
True. I think the Catholic commentator is being a bit too dramatic.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Αριστοκλής on January 29, 2013, 10:56:42 AM
Since when is "sexual orientation" comparable to a religion?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Deacon Lance on January 29, 2013, 11:08:23 AM
Quote
The Boy Scout of America [BSA] is considering (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57566239/boy-scouts-reconsidering-stance-on-gay-members/) ending its longstanding national membership restrictions based on sexual orientation.

Under the change now being discussed, the different religious and civic groups that sponsor Scout units would be able to decide for themselves how to address the issue — either maintaining an exclusion of gays or opening up their membership.

One Catholic commentator (http://davidgibson.religionnews.com/2013/01/28/so-long-catholic-boy-scouts/) predicted that if the BSA go through with this, then the BSA would be excluded from Catholic parishes, since to sponsor a BSA unit would be to cooperate with a group that supports what is considered an immoral position.

Do Orthodox parishes have BSA units, and would this potential change affect Orthodox-BSA relationships?

The Girl Scouts did this years ago, neither the Orthodox or Catholic Churches disaffiliated with them.  Most seem unaware that the local Chartering Organization has complete control over the troop.  They approve leadership and can, although this very rare nowadays, have a closed troop for oly members of that faith.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Iconodule on January 29, 2013, 11:27:53 AM
Since when is "sexual orientation" comparable to a religion?

For some people it seems they are identical, since this is the only thing their religion seems to care about. But never mind that...

The argument is, "If an organization allows someone who is x to be a member, then hosting that organization means endorsing x." You either take that logic to its ultimate, silly conclusion or you shouldn't employ it at all.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: genesisone on January 29, 2013, 11:50:18 AM
Since when is "sexual orientation" comparable to a religion?
When it becomes the all encompassing focus of your being and energies.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: ialmisry on January 29, 2013, 12:56:27 PM
Since when is "sexual orientation" comparable to a religion?

For some people it seems they are identical, since this is the only thing their religion seems to care about. But never mind that...

The argument is, "If an organization allows someone who is x to be a member, then hosting that organization means endorsing x." You either take that logic to its ultimate, silly conclusion or you shouldn't employ it at all.
To answer the original question, when it has an agenda.

And the gays in this case certainly have an agenda.

Now, if you let an openly gay scout in, you're going to either a) have to him sleep in the same tent as the other boy(s) or b) have him sleep by himself.  b somewhat contradicts the whole point of scouting. a raising the question of why they couldn't have a girl sleep in the same tent (they've already had the battle of girls being let into Boy Scouts.

Do I have to explain to the silly why a Church would have a problem with that?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Jetavan on January 29, 2013, 01:15:51 PM
Since when is "sexual orientation" comparable to a religion?

For some people it seems they are identical, since this is the only thing their religion seems to care about. But never mind that...

The argument is, "If an organization allows someone who is x to be a member, then hosting that organization means endorsing x." You either take that logic to its ultimate, silly conclusion or you shouldn't employ it at all.
To answer the original question, when it has an agenda.

And the gays in this case certainly have an agenda.

Now, if you let an openly gay scout in, you're going to either a) have to him sleep in the same tent as the other boy(s) or b) have him sleep by himself.  b somewhat contradicts the whole point of scouting. a raising the question of why they couldn't have a girl sleep in the same tent (they've already had the battle of girls being let into Boy Scouts.

Do I have to explain to the silly why a Church would have a problem with that?
The Church has a problem with a gay person sleeping in the same tent as a straight person?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: theistgal on January 29, 2013, 01:19:40 PM
I think the Church's concern is that they assume all gay men are potentially pedophiles, who want to hang out with boys, and of course we just can't have that. (any more)
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: stavros_388 on January 29, 2013, 01:45:34 PM
Since when is "sexual orientation" comparable to a religion?

For some people it seems they are identical, since this is the only thing their religion seems to care about. But never mind that...

The argument is, "If an organization allows someone who is x to be a member, then hosting that organization means endorsing x." You either take that logic to its ultimate, silly conclusion or you shouldn't employ it at all.
To answer the original question, when it has an agenda.

And the gays in this case certainly have an agenda.

Now, if you let an openly gay scout in, you're going to either a) have to him sleep in the same tent as the other boy(s) or b) have him sleep by himself.  b somewhat contradicts the whole point of scouting. a raising the question of why they couldn't have a girl sleep in the same tent (they've already had the battle of girls being let into Boy Scouts.

Do I have to explain to the silly why a Church would have a problem with that?
The Church has a problem with a gay person sleeping in the same tent as a straight person?

  :laugh:
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: ialmisry on January 29, 2013, 02:04:03 PM
Since when is "sexual orientation" comparable to a religion?

For some people it seems they are identical, since this is the only thing their religion seems to care about. But never mind that...

The argument is, "If an organization allows someone who is x to be a member, then hosting that organization means endorsing x." You either take that logic to its ultimate, silly conclusion or you shouldn't employ it at all.
To answer the original question, when it has an agenda.

And the gays in this case certainly have an agenda.

Now, if you let an openly gay scout in, you're going to either a) have to him sleep in the same tent as the other boy(s) or b) have him sleep by himself.  b somewhat contradicts the whole point of scouting. a raising the question of why they couldn't have a girl sleep in the same tent (they've already had the battle of girls being let into Boy Scouts.

Do I have to explain to the silly why a Church would have a problem with that?
The Church has a problem with a gay person sleeping in the same tent as a straight person?

  :laugh:
The lawsuits have reminded the Vatican of that.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on January 29, 2013, 02:04:32 PM
Since when is "sexual orientation" comparable to a religion?

For some people it seems they are identical, since this is the only thing their religion seems to care about. But never mind that...

The argument is, "If an organization allows someone who is x to be a member, then hosting that organization means endorsing x." You either take that logic to its ultimate, silly conclusion or you shouldn't employ it at all.
To answer the original question, when it has an agenda.

And the gays in this case certainly have an agenda.

Now, if you let an openly gay scout in, you're going to either a) have to him sleep in the same tent as the other boy(s) or b) have him sleep by himself.  b somewhat contradicts the whole point of scouting. a raising the question of why they couldn't have a girl sleep in the same tent (they've already had the battle of girls being let into Boy Scouts.

Do I have to explain to the silly why a Church would have a problem with that?
The Church has a problem with a gay person sleeping in the same tent as a straight person?
Only when the straight boy is sexually attracted to gay boys.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Nigula Qian Zishi on January 29, 2013, 02:20:18 PM
Eastern Orthodox Committee on Scouting  (http://eocs.org/)
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: ialmisry on January 29, 2013, 02:38:05 PM
Since when is "sexual orientation" comparable to a religion?

For some people it seems they are identical, since this is the only thing their religion seems to care about. But never mind that...

The argument is, "If an organization allows someone who is x to be a member, then hosting that organization means endorsing x." You either take that logic to its ultimate, silly conclusion or you shouldn't employ it at all.
To answer the original question, when it has an agenda.

And the gays in this case certainly have an agenda.

Now, if you let an openly gay scout in, you're going to either a) have to him sleep in the same tent as the other boy(s) or b) have him sleep by himself.  b somewhat contradicts the whole point of scouting. a raising the question of why they couldn't have a girl sleep in the same tent (they've already had the battle of girls being let into Boy Scouts.

Do I have to explain to the silly why a Church would have a problem with that?
The Church has a problem with a gay person sleeping in the same tent as a straight person?
Only when the straight boy is sexually attracted to gay boys.
So it is fine if the straight boy is sexually attracted to straight girls?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Shanghaiski on January 29, 2013, 02:43:22 PM
Since when is "sexual orientation" comparable to a religion?

Since people started worshipping it.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Shanghaiski on January 29, 2013, 02:46:49 PM
I think the Church's concern is that they assume all gay men are potentially pedophiles, who want to hang out with boys, and of course we just can't have that. (any more)

Well, there are lawsuits against the BSA for pedophiles preying on boys, IIRC.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Peter J on January 29, 2013, 02:48:07 PM
Since when is "sexual orientation" comparable to a religion?

And since when is it considered sinful? I think David Gibson's opinion represents only a minute fraction of Catholics. (I guess I'm not telling you anything you haven't already figured out.)
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Peter J on January 29, 2013, 02:49:36 PM
Since when is "sexual orientation" comparable to a religion?

Since people started worshipping it.

:D

But, seriously, it would then follow that the sun is a religion, since there have been people who worshiped it.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Deep Roots on January 29, 2013, 02:56:28 PM
the world is totes going to end.  Gayz!!
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on January 29, 2013, 05:16:50 PM
Since when is "sexual orientation" comparable to a religion?

For some people it seems they are identical, since this is the only thing their religion seems to care about. But never mind that...

The argument is, "If an organization allows someone who is x to be a member, then hosting that organization means endorsing x." You either take that logic to its ultimate, silly conclusion or you shouldn't employ it at all.
To answer the original question, when it has an agenda.

And the gays in this case certainly have an agenda.

Now, if you let an openly gay scout in, you're going to either a) have to him sleep in the same tent as the other boy(s) or b) have him sleep by himself.  b somewhat contradicts the whole point of scouting. a raising the question of why they couldn't have a girl sleep in the same tent (they've already had the battle of girls being let into Boy Scouts.

Do I have to explain to the silly why a Church would have a problem with that?
The Church has a problem with a gay person sleeping in the same tent as a straight person?
Only when the straight boy is sexually attracted to gay boys.
So it is fine if the straight boy is sexually attracted to straight girls?
As long as you don't allow the straight boy and the straight girl to sleep in the same tent.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: orthonorm on January 29, 2013, 05:19:35 PM
And the gays in this case certainly have an agenda.

And what is on that agenda for August 14th 2014 at 14:00?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: orthonorm on January 29, 2013, 05:22:15 PM
Since when is "sexual orientation" comparable to a religion?

For some people it seems they are identical, since this is the only thing their religion seems to care about. But never mind that...

The argument is, "If an organization allows someone who is x to be a member, then hosting that organization means endorsing x." You either take that logic to its ultimate, silly conclusion or you shouldn't employ it at all.
To answer the original question, when it has an agenda.

And the gays in this case certainly have an agenda.

Now, if you let an openly gay scout in, you're going to either a) have to him sleep in the same tent as the other boy(s) or b) have him sleep by himself.  b somewhat contradicts the whole point of scouting. a raising the question of why they couldn't have a girl sleep in the same tent (they've already had the battle of girls being let into Boy Scouts.

Do I have to explain to the silly why a Church would have a problem with that?

Really, what is more gay than the Boy Scouts other than parades?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Deep Roots on January 29, 2013, 05:47:28 PM
Orthonorm, your sig is great. Great juxtaposition.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: brastaseptim on January 29, 2013, 05:52:24 PM
I will never get this whole thing. I mean, I was in the Boy Scouts for six years- and left because of the all-Protestants troop's attitude towards Orthodox and Catholics, not their position towards gay scouts. I mean, I'm bisexual and there was never a problem- of course, none of them were ever exactly what I would call attractive anyway, so that bit never had a reason to come out.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: tuesdayschild on January 29, 2013, 06:08:03 PM
Really, what is more gay than the Boy Scouts other than parades?

(http://991.com/newgallery/Village-People-YMCA-161120.jpg)
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: orthonorm on January 29, 2013, 06:11:31 PM
Really, what is more gay than the Boy Scouts other than parades?

(http://991.com/newgallery/Village-People-YMCA-161120.jpg)

Isn't one of them a boy scout? The Village People is sorta like combining the worst of both worlds.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Tallitot on January 29, 2013, 06:11:47 PM
And the gays in this case certainly have an agenda.

And what is on that agenda for August 14th 2014 at 14:00?

My gay agenda for the rest of day:
Finish laundry
Put dishes away
Feed dogs
Do an online course for job
Study Hebrew
Force everyone else to become gay married
Watch NOVA
Say prayers
Go to sleep
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: orthonorm on January 29, 2013, 06:13:01 PM
I will never get this whole thing. I mean, I was in the Boy Scouts for six years- and left because of the all-Protestants troop's attitude towards Orthodox and Catholics, not their position towards gay scouts. I mean, I'm bisexual and there was never a problem- of course, none of them were ever exactly what I would call attractive anyway, so that bit never had a reason to come out.

One day you too will be able to be officially within the Boy Scouts while being shunned for being bi.

Free at last!
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: brastaseptim on January 29, 2013, 06:15:00 PM
I will never get this whole thing. I mean, I was in the Boy Scouts for six years- and left because of the all-Protestants troop's attitude towards Orthodox and Catholics, not their position towards gay scouts. I mean, I'm bisexual and there was never a problem- of course, none of them were ever exactly what I would call attractive anyway, so that bit never had a reason to come out.

One day you too will be able to be officially within the Boy Scouts while being shunned for being bi.

Free at last!

Yes, because exhanging one shunning for another will be so tremendously fun.  ::)
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: orthonorm on January 29, 2013, 06:15:50 PM
I will never get this whole thing. I mean, I was in the Boy Scouts for six years- and left because of the all-Protestants troop's attitude towards Orthodox and Catholics, not their position towards gay scouts. I mean, I'm bisexual and there was never a problem- of course, none of them were ever exactly what I would call attractive anyway, so that bit never had a reason to come out.

One day you too will be able to be officially within the Boy Scouts while being shunned for being bi.

Free at last!

Yes, because exhanging one shunning for another will be so tremendously fun.  ::)

Irony.

Learn it soon.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: brastaseptim on January 29, 2013, 06:18:25 PM
Quote from: orthonorm link=topic=49533.msg872273#msg872273 date=1359497750 [/quote

Irony.

Learn it soon.

Sarcasm.
Learned it over ten years ago.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Agabus on January 29, 2013, 06:33:02 PM
And the gays in this case certainly have an agenda.

And what is on that agenda for August 14th 2014 at 14:00?

My gay agenda for the rest of day:
Finish gay laundry
Put gay dishes away
Feed gay dogs
Do a gay online course for job
Study gay Hebrew
Force everyone else to become gay married
Watch gay NOVA
Say gay prayers
Go to gay sleep
Fixed that for you so that it properly demonstrates how being gay is the core of everything you do.

Because if that’s not the case, your gay day seems strikingly like my straight day (minus the Jew-y stuff), and that makes me as a Straight-American uncomfortable.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: orthonorm on January 29, 2013, 06:33:43 PM
Quote from: orthonorm link=topic=49533.msg872273#msg872273 date=1359497750 [/quote

Irony.

Learn it soon.

Sarcasm.
Learned it over ten years ago.

Now work on that quote tag!
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Tallitot on January 29, 2013, 06:33:54 PM
Really, what is more gay than the Boy Scouts other than parades?

(http://991.com/newgallery/Village-People-YMCA-161120.jpg)

Isn't one of them a boy scout? The Village People is sorta like combining the worst of both worlds.
No: a cop, a construction worker, an american indian, a leather guy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS9OO0S5w2k
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: orthonorm on January 29, 2013, 06:34:23 PM
And the gays in this case certainly have an agenda.

And what is on that agenda for August 14th 2014 at 14:00?

My gay agenda for the rest of day:
Finish gay laundry
Put gay dishes away
Feed gay dogs
Do a gay online course for job
Study gay Hebrew
Force everyone else to become gay married
Watch gay NOVA
Say gay prayers
Go to gay sleep
Fixed that for you so that it properly demonstrates how being gay is the core of everything you do.

This thread gets more awesomer.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: brastaseptim on January 29, 2013, 06:37:15 PM

This thread gets more awesomer.
[/quote]
Or just more stranger. And I STILL cannot work that quote tag!
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Tallitot on January 29, 2013, 07:28:44 PM
deleted wrong thread
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: theistgal on January 29, 2013, 07:44:02 PM
NOVA is pretty gay.  :D
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Tallitot on January 29, 2013, 07:47:02 PM
NOVA is pretty gay.  :D
How's this...'watch Downton Abbey".
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Agabus on January 29, 2013, 08:56:19 PM
NOVA is pretty gay.  :D
How's this...'watch Downton Abbey".
Though Downton Abbey seems like it would have some gay points attached to it, the gay guy in it is kind of a villain, thus undermining the gay television agenda. Gay.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: ialmisry on January 29, 2013, 09:14:31 PM
Since when is "sexual orientation" comparable to a religion?

For some people it seems they are identical, since this is the only thing their religion seems to care about. But never mind that...

The argument is, "If an organization allows someone who is x to be a member, then hosting that organization means endorsing x." You either take that logic to its ultimate, silly conclusion or you shouldn't employ it at all.
To answer the original question, when it has an agenda.

And the gays in this case certainly have an agenda.

Now, if you let an openly gay scout in, you're going to either a) have to him sleep in the same tent as the other boy(s) or b) have him sleep by himself.  b somewhat contradicts the whole point of scouting. a raising the question of why they couldn't have a girl sleep in the same tent (they've already had the battle of girls being let into Boy Scouts.

Do I have to explain to the silly why a Church would have a problem with that?
The Church has a problem with a gay person sleeping in the same tent as a straight person?
Only when the straight boy is sexually attracted to gay boys.
So it is fine if the straight boy is sexually attracted to straight girls?
As long as you don't allow the straight boy and the straight girl to sleep in the same tent.
If we let the gay boy sleep in the same tent with the straight boy (let alone with another gay boy), why not?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: ialmisry on January 29, 2013, 09:15:36 PM
And the gays in this case certainly have an agenda.

And what is on that agenda for August 14th 2014 at 14:00?

My gay agenda for the rest of day:
Finish laundry
Put dishes away
Feed dogs
Do an online course for job
Study Hebrew
Force everyone else to become gay married
Watch NOVA
Say prayers
Go to sleep
with whom?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Peter J on January 29, 2013, 09:19:45 PM
And the gays in this case certainly have an agenda.

And what is on that agenda for August 14th 2014 at 14:00?

My gay agenda for the rest of day:
Finish laundry
Put dishes away
Feed dogs
Do an online course for job
Study Hebrew
Force everyone else to become gay married
Watch NOVA
Say prayers
Go to sleep

- But we've also expanded into other important areas. Literacy programs, preserving our beloved covered bridges, world domination...
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on January 29, 2013, 09:20:33 PM
Since when is "sexual orientation" comparable to a religion?

For some people it seems they are identical, since this is the only thing their religion seems to care about. But never mind that...

The argument is, "If an organization allows someone who is x to be a member, then hosting that organization means endorsing x." You either take that logic to its ultimate, silly conclusion or you shouldn't employ it at all.
To answer the original question, when it has an agenda.

And the gays in this case certainly have an agenda.

Now, if you let an openly gay scout in, you're going to either a) have to him sleep in the same tent as the other boy(s) or b) have him sleep by himself.  b somewhat contradicts the whole point of scouting. a raising the question of why they couldn't have a girl sleep in the same tent (they've already had the battle of girls being let into Boy Scouts.

Do I have to explain to the silly why a Church would have a problem with that?
The Church has a problem with a gay person sleeping in the same tent as a straight person?
Only when the straight boy is sexually attracted to gay boys.
So it is fine if the straight boy is sexually attracted to straight girls?
As long as you don't allow the straight boy and the straight girl to sleep in the same tent.
If we let the gay boy sleep in the same tent with the straight boy (let alone with another gay boy), why not?
What about mutual attraction do you not understand? Boys and girls are made to be mutually attracted to each other for the propagation of our race. Two gay boys or two lesbian girls may likely become mutually attracted to each other. But a gay boy and a straight boy? If the gay boy becomes attracted to the straight boy, a quick punch in the nuts from the straight boy will put an end to that right quick!
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: LBK on January 29, 2013, 09:41:35 PM
Quote
If the gay boy becomes attracted to the straight boy, a quick punch in the nuts from the straight boy will put an end to that right quick!

... if the straight boy has enough gumption to do it, sure. And he should!

Sadly, that's not always the case, especially if the straight boy is younger, smaller, or susceptible to bullying and coercion.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Shiny on January 29, 2013, 09:45:00 PM
If they allow gay boys to be in Boy Scouts (which is already gay anyway), and other boys know they have one in their group, I think we all know what's going to happen.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Peter J on January 29, 2013, 09:47:24 PM
Since when is "sexual orientation" comparable to a religion?

For some people it seems they are identical, since this is the only thing their religion seems to care about. But never mind that...

The argument is, "If an organization allows someone who is x to be a member, then hosting that organization means endorsing x." You either take that logic to its ultimate, silly conclusion or you shouldn't employ it at all.
To answer the original question, when it has an agenda.

And the gays in this case certainly have an agenda.

Now, if you let an openly gay scout in, you're going to either a) have to him sleep in the same tent as the other boy(s) or b) have him sleep by himself.  b somewhat contradicts the whole point of scouting. a raising the question of why they couldn't have a girl sleep in the same tent (they've already had the battle of girls being let into Boy Scouts.

Do I have to explain to the silly why a Church would have a problem with that?
The Church has a problem with a gay person sleeping in the same tent as a straight person?
Only when the straight boy is sexually attracted to gay boys.
So it is fine if the straight boy is sexually attracted to straight girls?
As long as you don't allow the straight boy and the straight girl to sleep in the same tent.
If we let the gay boy sleep in the same tent with the straight boy (let alone with another gay boy), why not?
What about mutual attraction do you not understand? Boys and girls are made to be mutually attracted to each other for the propagation of our race. Two gay boys or two lesbian girls may likely become mutually attracted to each other. But a gay boy and a straight boy? If the gay boy becomes attracted to the straight boy, a quick punch in the nuts from the straight boy will put an end to that right quick!

They should make a rule that gay boys can join as long as they don't wear a cup or know self-defense.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Shiny on January 29, 2013, 09:50:42 PM
Quote
If the gay boy becomes attracted to the straight boy, a quick punch in the nuts from the straight boy will put an end to that right quick!

... if the straight boy has enough gumption to do it, sure. And he should!

Sadly, that's not always the case, especially if the straight boy is younger, smaller, or susceptible to bullying and coercion.
This is naive.

I still think this is relevant, but when I was a kid and we knew another boy was gay, yeah they were pretty much bullied nonstop.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Deep Roots on January 29, 2013, 09:51:57 PM
Quote
If the gay boy becomes attracted to the straight boy, a quick punch in the nuts from the straight boy will put an end to that right quick!

... if the straight boy has enough gumption to do it, sure. And he should!

Sadly, that's not always the case, especially if the straight boy is younger, smaller, or susceptible to bullying and coercion.
you aren't being serious, are you?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on January 29, 2013, 10:12:03 PM
Quote
If the gay boy becomes attracted to the straight boy, a quick punch in the nuts from the straight boy will put an end to that right quick!

... if the straight boy has enough gumption to do it, sure. And he should!

Sadly, that's not always the case, especially if the straight boy is younger, smaller, or susceptible to bullying and coercion.
But then, in the context of our discussion over whether a gay boy should be allowed to sleep in the same tent as a straight boy, the bigger, stronger boy could be the straight boy, or there could be an equal size difference between two straight boys. Are we then going to not allow two straight boys of greatly unequal size to sleep in the same tent?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: JamesR on January 29, 2013, 10:38:24 PM
I don't see how supporting BSA means promoting homosexuality. The only potential issue I see is having a gay boy sleep in the same room/tent and/or use the same shower facilities at the same time as other boys, in which case, there could potentially be problems. That's why the boys and girls are divided. What could we do for homosexual members? Why not put homosexual boys into the girl scouts and homosexual girls into the boy scouts? Then again, the girls might feel uncomfortable having a boy--even if he is gay--constantly around them. And the lesbian girl could be raped by the boys.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: JamesRottnek on January 29, 2013, 10:40:23 PM
I don't see how supporting BSA means promoting homosexuality. The only potential issue I see is having a gay boy sleep in the same room/tent and/or use the same shower facilities at the same time as other boys, in which case, there could potentially be problems. That's why the boys and girls are divided. What could we do for homosexual members? Why not put homosexual boys into the girl scouts and homosexual girls into the boy scouts? Then again, the girls might feel uncomfortable having a boy--even if he is gay--constantly around them. And the lesbian girl could be raped by the boys.

Gay boy scouts have been sleeping in the same tents as straight boy scouts since the start of the scouting movement.

I personally know two gay Eagle Scouts.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: LBK on January 29, 2013, 10:46:30 PM
Quote
If the gay boy becomes attracted to the straight boy, a quick punch in the nuts from the straight boy will put an end to that right quick!

... if the straight boy has enough gumption to do it, sure. And he should!

Sadly, that's not always the case, especially if the straight boy is younger, smaller, or susceptible to bullying and coercion.
This is naive.
I still think this is relevant, but when I was a kid and we knew another boy was gay, yeah they were pretty much bullied nonstop.

Gays can be bullies just as much as straights. I'm not naive, I speak from experience which is much longer than yours.  ;)
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Shiny on January 29, 2013, 10:56:40 PM
Quote
If the gay boy becomes attracted to the straight boy, a quick punch in the nuts from the straight boy will put an end to that right quick!

... if the straight boy has enough gumption to do it, sure. And he should!

Sadly, that's not always the case, especially if the straight boy is younger, smaller, or susceptible to bullying and coercion.
This is naive.
I still think this is relevant, but when I was a kid and we knew another boy was gay, yeah they were pretty much bullied nonstop.

Gays can be bullies just as much as straights. I'm not naive, I speak from experience which is much longer than yours.  ;)
I've never met a single gay bully in my life. Are they the new boogeymen?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: JamesR on January 29, 2013, 10:59:32 PM
I've never really met a gay bully in the conventional sense. That being said, I have met gay people who were mean in a passive-aggressive sense, ie, putting off the attitude that they believe they are better or cooler than you. But I wouldn't necessarily classify them as bullies, but rather as arse holes.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Shiny on January 29, 2013, 11:00:44 PM
I've never really met a gay bully in the conventional sense. That being said, I have met gay people who were mean in a passive-aggressive sense, ie, putting off the attitude that they believe they are better or cooler than you. But I wouldn't necessarily classify them as bullies, but rather as arse holes.
Well the shoe does fit since they want to act like *****es, are you surprised?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: JamesR on January 29, 2013, 11:04:58 PM
I've never really met a gay bully in the conventional sense. That being said, I have met gay people who were mean in a passive-aggressive sense, ie, putting off the attitude that they believe they are better or cooler than you. But I wouldn't necessarily classify them as bullies, but rather as arse holes.
Well the shoe does fit since they want to act like *****es, are you surprised?

Not at all. America is very xenophobic of homosexuals. Acting like a jerk doesn't necessarily equal being a bully. Bullies go out to cause harm and harass students. Jerks just have a bad attitude.
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Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Shiny on January 29, 2013, 11:06:19 PM
I've never really met a gay bully in the conventional sense. That being said, I have met gay people who were mean in a passive-aggressive sense, ie, putting off the attitude that they believe they are better or cooler than you. But I wouldn't necessarily classify them as bullies, but rather as arse holes.
Well the shoe does fit since they want to act like *****es, are you surprised?

Not at all. America is very xenophobic of homosexuals. Acting like an @'hole doesn't necessarily equal being a bully. Bullies go out to cause harm and harass students. @'holes just have a bad attitude.
LOL no I was commenting on their attitude being that of the female counterpart who is a *****.

You feel me?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: LBK on January 29, 2013, 11:07:02 PM
Quote
If the gay boy becomes attracted to the straight boy, a quick punch in the nuts from the straight boy will put an end to that right quick!

... if the straight boy has enough gumption to do it, sure. And he should!

Sadly, that's not always the case, especially if the straight boy is younger, smaller, or susceptible to bullying and coercion.
This is naive.
I still think this is relevant, but when I was a kid and we knew another boy was gay, yeah they were pretty much bullied nonstop.

Gays can be bullies just as much as straights. I'm not naive, I speak from experience which is much longer than yours.  ;)
I've never met a single gay bully in my life. Are they the new boogeymen?

My dear A, you forget I'm MUCH older than you.  :-*
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: JamesR on January 29, 2013, 11:08:05 PM
I've never really met a gay bully in the conventional sense. That being said, I have met gay people who were mean in a passive-aggressive sense, ie, putting off the attitude that they believe they are better or cooler than you. But I wouldn't necessarily classify them as bullies, but rather as arse holes.
Well the shoe does fit since they want to act like *****es, are you surprised?

Not at all. America is very xenophobic of homosexuals. Acting like an @'hole doesn't necessarily equal being a bully. Bullies go out to cause harm and harass students. @'holes just have a bad attitude.
LOL no I was commenting on their attitude being that of the female counterpart who is a *****.

You feel me?

Ahhh yes, I get you. They have a [derogatory term referencing a female dog]y attitude. They'd be perfect for the girl scouts :P
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: orthonorm on January 29, 2013, 11:16:47 PM
Quote
If the gay boy becomes attracted to the straight boy, a quick punch in the nuts from the straight boy will put an end to that right quick!

... if the straight boy has enough gumption to do it, sure. And he should!

Sadly, that's not always the case, especially if the straight boy is younger, smaller, or susceptible to bullying and coercion.

Wow.

Wow.

Most Offensive Posts of the Month?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Peter J on January 29, 2013, 11:19:30 PM
Quote
If the gay boy becomes attracted to the straight boy, a quick punch in the nuts from the straight boy will put an end to that right quick!

... if the straight boy has enough gumption to do it, sure. And he should!

Sadly, that's not always the case, especially if the straight boy is younger, smaller, or susceptible to bullying and coercion.
you aren't being serious, are you?

I wondered if he was.

I can tell you that my response to PtA's post,

If the gay boy becomes attracted to the straight boy, a quick punch in the nuts from the straight boy will put an end to that right quick!

They should make a rule that gay boys can join as long as they don't wear a cup or know self-defense.

was meant as sarcasm (surprise surprise).
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Nigula Qian Zishi on January 29, 2013, 11:20:57 PM
Eastern Orthodox Committee on Scouting  (http://eocs.org/)

The Orthodox Religious medals Scouts can earn:

http://usscouts.org/scoutduty/sd2gc34.asp (http://usscouts.org/scoutduty/sd2gc34.asp)

Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: orthonorm on January 29, 2013, 11:22:13 PM
Quote
If the gay boy becomes attracted to the straight boy, a quick punch in the nuts from the straight boy will put an end to that right quick!

... if the straight boy has enough gumption to do it, sure. And he should!

Sadly, that's not always the case, especially if the straight boy is younger, smaller, or susceptible to bullying and coercion.
you aren't being serious, are you?

I wondered if he was.

I can tell you that my response to PtA's post,

If the gay boy becomes attracted to the straight boy, a quick punch in the nuts from the straight boy will put an end to that right quick!

They should make a rule that gay boys can join as long as they don't wear a cup or know self-defense.

was meant as sarcasm (surprise surprise).

This seems clear.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: orthonorm on January 29, 2013, 11:23:41 PM
Quote
If the gay boy becomes attracted to the straight boy, a quick punch in the nuts from the straight boy will put an end to that right quick!

... if the straight boy has enough gumption to do it, sure. And he should!

Sadly, that's not always the case, especially if the straight boy is younger, smaller, or susceptible to bullying and coercion.
This is naive.
I still think this is relevant, but when I was a kid and we knew another boy was gay, yeah they were pretty much bullied nonstop.

Gays can be bullies just as much as straights. I'm not naive, I speak from experience which is much longer than yours.  ;)
I've never met a single gay bully in my life. Are they the new boogeymen?

My dear A, you forget I'm MUCH older than you.  :-*

And yet, those a quarter of your age seem to exercise more keen judgement when it comes to dealing with groups who have been for the most part on the short end of stick when it comes violence.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: orthonorm on January 29, 2013, 11:25:57 PM
I don't see how supporting BSA means promoting homosexuality. The only potential issue I see is having a gay boy sleep in the same room/tent and/or use the same shower facilities at the same time as other boys, in which case, there could potentially be problems. That's why the boys and girls are divided. What could we do for homosexual members? Why not put homosexual boys into the girl scouts and homosexual girls into the boy scouts? Then again, the girls might feel uncomfortable having a boy--even if he is gay--constantly around them. And the lesbian girl could be raped by the boys.

Gay boy scouts have been sleeping in the same tents as straight boy scouts since the start of the scouting movement.

I personally know two gay Eagle Scouts.

This all plays into this homophobic trope which is not dissimilar to one which colors the view of black men in this country, the superior and dangerously uncontrollable libido of the gay male.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Shiny on January 29, 2013, 11:26:41 PM
I've never really met a gay bully in the conventional sense. That being said, I have met gay people who were mean in a passive-aggressive sense, ie, putting off the attitude that they believe they are better or cooler than you. But I wouldn't necessarily classify them as bullies, but rather as arse holes.
Well the shoe does fit since they want to act like *****es, are you surprised?

Not at all. America is very xenophobic of homosexuals. Acting like an @'hole doesn't necessarily equal being a bully. Bullies go out to cause harm and harass students. @'holes just have a bad attitude.
LOL no I was commenting on their attitude being that of the female counterpart who is a *****.

You feel me?

Ahhh yes, I get you. They have a [derogatory term referencing a female dog]y attitude. They'd be perfect for the girl scouts :P
LOL

Would girl scout cookies rise in sales or not?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Ionnis on January 29, 2013, 11:27:54 PM
Quote
If the gay boy becomes attracted to the straight boy, a quick punch in the nuts from the straight boy will put an end to that right quick!

... if the straight boy has enough gumption to do it, sure. And he should!

Sadly, that's not always the case, especially if the straight boy is younger, smaller, or susceptible to bullying and coercion.

Wow.

Wow.

Most Offensive Posts of the Month?

"By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” -John 13:35

The world is perishing because of us.  
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Shiny on January 29, 2013, 11:35:48 PM
Well if you punch a gay boy in the nuts he can turn straight.

That's what I learned in my Creationism class when God was making Adam and Steve.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: JamesRottnek on January 29, 2013, 11:38:39 PM
Quote
If the gay boy becomes attracted to the straight boy, a quick punch in the nuts from the straight boy will put an end to that right quick!

... if the straight boy has enough gumption to do it, sure. And he should!

Sadly, that's not always the case, especially if the straight boy is younger, smaller, or susceptible to bullying and coercion.

Wow.

Wow.

Most Offensive Posts of the Month?

I think so.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Shiny on January 29, 2013, 11:39:03 PM
Yo LBK, real talk. Are there more gays down under?

Oh and I chuckled when I wrote that.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Peter J on January 29, 2013, 11:51:42 PM
I don't see how supporting BSA means promoting homosexuality.

Again here, David Gibson (the commentator mentioned in the OP) represents only a minute fraction of Catholics.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: ialmisry on January 30, 2013, 12:36:51 AM
I don't see how supporting BSA means promoting homosexuality. The only potential issue I see is having a gay boy sleep in the same room/tent and/or use the same shower facilities at the same time as other boys, in which case, there could potentially be problems. That's why the boys and girls are divided. What could we do for homosexual members? Why not put homosexual boys into the girl scouts and homosexual girls into the boy scouts? Then again, the girls might feel uncomfortable having a boy--even if he is gay--constantly around them. And the lesbian girl could be raped by the boys.

Gay boy scouts have been sleeping in the same tents as straight boy scouts since the start of the scouting movement.
not openly they haven't. Sort of like stating the fact that every army has always had enemy agents in it.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: orthonorm on January 30, 2013, 12:42:35 AM
I don't see how supporting BSA means promoting homosexuality. The only potential issue I see is having a gay boy sleep in the same room/tent and/or use the same shower facilities at the same time as other boys, in which case, there could potentially be problems. That's why the boys and girls are divided. What could we do for homosexual members? Why not put homosexual boys into the girl scouts and homosexual girls into the boy scouts? Then again, the girls might feel uncomfortable having a boy--even if he is gay--constantly around them. And the lesbian girl could be raped by the boys.

Gay boy scouts have been sleeping in the same tents as straight boy scouts since the start of the scouting movement.
not openly they haven't. Sort of like stating the fact that every army has always had enemy agents in it.

Isa,

Your rhetoric as of late has become more caustic on both this and the private board, I must truly ask, are you just trying be clever here or are you really playing the double meaning of the analogy?

This would relate to your comment about the Russian Odox Church passing laws against homosexual "whatever" in the private board.

Seriously, I would like to know.

Are you by extension here comparing homosexual adolescents to enemy agents within a military in how they might be viewed as the enemy, dangerous, etc.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Quinault on January 30, 2013, 12:44:16 AM
If they allow gay boys to be in Boy Scouts (which is already gay anyway), and other boys know they have one in their group, I think we all know what's going to happen.

At least in my area, I doubt there would be any difference whatsoever in how the homosexual scouts are treated.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: LBK on January 30, 2013, 01:55:38 AM
Quote
If the gay boy becomes attracted to the straight boy, a quick punch in the nuts from the straight boy will put an end to that right quick!

... if the straight boy has enough gumption to do it, sure. And he should!

Sadly, that's not always the case, especially if the straight boy is younger, smaller, or susceptible to bullying and coercion.
This is naive.
I still think this is relevant, but when I was a kid and we knew another boy was gay, yeah they were pretty much bullied nonstop.

Gays can be bullies just as much as straights. I'm not naive, I speak from experience which is much longer than yours.  ;)
I've never met a single gay bully in my life. Are they the new boogeymen?

My dear A, you forget I'm MUCH older than you.  :-*

And yet, those a quarter of your age seem to exercise more keen judgement when it comes to dealing with groups who have been for the most part on the short end of stick when it comes violence.

I make no distinction between unwanted sexual advances between straight males on females, lesbians against straight females, or homosexual males on straight male. Predatory sexual behavior is a violation, and all who are on the receiving end of such attacks (and they need not be violent) have the right and prerogative to fend off the perpetrator.

Or are certain people here wishing to make a distinction as to how homosexual and heterosexual predation be dealt with?  >:(
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: JamesRottnek on January 30, 2013, 02:15:21 AM
Quote
If the gay boy becomes attracted to the straight boy, a quick punch in the nuts from the straight boy will put an end to that right quick!

... if the straight boy has enough gumption to do it, sure. And he should!

Sadly, that's not always the case, especially if the straight boy is younger, smaller, or susceptible to bullying and coercion.
This is naive.
I still think this is relevant, but when I was a kid and we knew another boy was gay, yeah they were pretty much bullied nonstop.

Gays can be bullies just as much as straights. I'm not naive, I speak from experience which is much longer than yours.  ;)
I've never met a single gay bully in my life. Are they the new boogeymen?

My dear A, you forget I'm MUCH older than you.  :-*

And yet, those a quarter of your age seem to exercise more keen judgement when it comes to dealing with groups who have been for the most part on the short end of stick when it comes violence.

I make no distinction between unwanted sexual advances between straight males on females, lesbians against straight females, or homosexual males on straight male. Predatory sexual behavior is a violation, and all who are on the receiving end of such attacks (and they need not be violent) have the right and prerogative to fend off the perpetrator.

Or are certain people here wishing to make a distinction as to how homosexual and heterosexual predation be dealt with?  >:(

What do you consider a "sexual advance" to be?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: LBK on January 30, 2013, 02:40:16 AM
Quote
If the gay boy becomes attracted to the straight boy, a quick punch in the nuts from the straight boy will put an end to that right quick!

... if the straight boy has enough gumption to do it, sure. And he should!

Sadly, that's not always the case, especially if the straight boy is younger, smaller, or susceptible to bullying and coercion.
This is naive.
I still think this is relevant, but when I was a kid and we knew another boy was gay, yeah they were pretty much bullied nonstop.

Gays can be bullies just as much as straights. I'm not naive, I speak from experience which is much longer than yours.  ;)
I've never met a single gay bully in my life. Are they the new boogeymen?

My dear A, you forget I'm MUCH older than you.  :-*

And yet, those a quarter of your age seem to exercise more keen judgement when it comes to dealing with groups who have been for the most part on the short end of stick when it comes violence.

I make no distinction between unwanted sexual advances between straight males on females, lesbians against straight females, or homosexual males on straight male. Predatory sexual behavior is a violation, and all who are on the receiving end of such attacks (and they need not be violent) have the right and prerogative to fend off the perpetrator.

Or are certain people here wishing to make a distinction as to how homosexual and heterosexual predation be dealt with?  >:(

What do you consider a "sexual advance" to be?

Are you serious?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on January 30, 2013, 02:46:23 AM
I don't see how supporting BSA means promoting homosexuality. The only potential issue I see is having a gay boy sleep in the same room/tent and/or use the same shower facilities at the same time as other boys, in which case, there could potentially be problems. That's why the boys and girls are divided.
I see you don't understand the concept of mutual attraction, either. ::) Personally, I don't have a problem with a gay boy sleeping in the same tent as a straight boy and using the same facilities as the straight boys unless one or more of the boys, gay or straight, causes a problem. I just wouldn't put two gay boys in the same tent.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: JamesR on January 30, 2013, 04:25:10 AM
I don't see how supporting BSA means promoting homosexuality. The only potential issue I see is having a gay boy sleep in the same room/tent and/or use the same shower facilities at the same time as other boys, in which case, there could potentially be problems. That's why the boys and girls are divided.
I see you don't understand the concept of mutual attraction, either. ::) Personally, I don't have a problem with a gay boy sleeping in the same tent as a straight boy and using the same facilities as the straight boys unless one or more of the boys, gay or straight, causes a problem. I just wouldn't put two gay boys in the same tent.

What if the gay boy is tougher than the other boys and rapes someone?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on January 30, 2013, 04:49:07 AM
Since when is "sexual orientation" comparable to a religion?

It became comparable right around the same time someone created the phrase.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on January 30, 2013, 04:51:52 AM
Since when is "sexual orientation" comparable to a religion?

For some people it seems they are identical, since this is the only thing their religion seems to care about. But never mind that...

The argument is, "If an organization allows someone who is x to be a member, then hosting that organization means endorsing x." You either take that logic to its ultimate, silly conclusion or you shouldn't employ it at all.
To answer the original question, when it has an agenda.

And the gays in this case certainly have an agenda.

Now, if you let an openly gay scout in, you're going to either a) have to him sleep in the same tent as the other boy(s) or b) have him sleep by himself.  b somewhat contradicts the whole point of scouting. a raising the question of why they couldn't have a girl sleep in the same tent (they've already had the battle of girls being let into Boy Scouts.

Do I have to explain to the silly why a Church would have a problem with that?
The Church has a problem with a gay person sleeping in the same tent as a straight person?

The Church has a problem with boys and girls sleeping the the same tent together at the same time?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on January 30, 2013, 04:52:17 AM
I think the Church's concern is that they assume all gay men are potentially pedophiles, who want to hang out with boys, and of course we just can't have that. (any more)

This is not the case at all.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on January 30, 2013, 04:58:11 AM
Since when is "sexual orientation" comparable to a religion?

For some people it seems they are identical, since this is the only thing their religion seems to care about. But never mind that...

The argument is, "If an organization allows someone who is x to be a member, then hosting that organization means endorsing x." You either take that logic to its ultimate, silly conclusion or you shouldn't employ it at all.
To answer the original question, when it has an agenda.

And the gays in this case certainly have an agenda.

Now, if you let an openly gay scout in, you're going to either a) have to him sleep in the same tent as the other boy(s) or b) have him sleep by himself.  b somewhat contradicts the whole point of scouting. a raising the question of why they couldn't have a girl sleep in the same tent (they've already had the battle of girls being let into Boy Scouts.

Do I have to explain to the silly why a Church would have a problem with that?
The Church has a problem with a gay person sleeping in the same tent as a straight person?
Only when the straight boy is sexually attracted to gay boys.
So it is fine if the straight boy is sexually attracted to straight girls?
As long as you don't allow the straight boy and the straight girl to sleep in the same tent.
If we let the gay boy sleep in the same tent with the straight boy (let alone with another gay boy), why not?
What about mutual attraction do you not understand? Boys and girls are made to be mutually attracted to each other for the propagation of our race. Two gay boys or two lesbian girls may likely become mutually attracted to each other. But a gay boy and a straight boy? If the gay boy becomes attracted to the straight boy, a quick punch in the nuts from the straight boy will put an end to that right quick!

It will also get him kicked out of the scouts, his parents taken to court, and him belittled as a bigot, hater and homophobe...unjustly, but then again, who cares about that as long as the homosexuals get what they want.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on January 30, 2013, 04:59:09 AM
Quote
If the gay boy becomes attracted to the straight boy, a quick punch in the nuts from the straight boy will put an end to that right quick!

... if the straight boy has enough gumption to do it, sure. And he should!

Sadly, that's not always the case, especially if the straight boy is younger, smaller, or susceptible to bullying and coercion.
This is naive.



Your thinking it naive is naive.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on January 30, 2013, 05:00:04 AM
I don't see how supporting BSA means promoting homosexuality. The only potential issue I see is having a gay boy sleep in the same room/tent and/or use the same shower facilities at the same time as other boys, in which case, there could potentially be problems. That's why the boys and girls are divided. What could we do for homosexual members? Why not put homosexual boys into the girl scouts and homosexual girls into the boy scouts? Then again, the girls might feel uncomfortable having a boy--even if he is gay--constantly around them. And the lesbian girl could be raped by the boys.

Gay boy scouts have been sleeping in the same tents as straight boy scouts since the start of the scouting movement.

I personally know two gay Eagle Scouts.

Congratulations
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on January 30, 2013, 05:00:44 AM
Quote
If the gay boy becomes attracted to the straight boy, a quick punch in the nuts from the straight boy will put an end to that right quick!

... if the straight boy has enough gumption to do it, sure. And he should!

Sadly, that's not always the case, especially if the straight boy is younger, smaller, or susceptible to bullying and coercion.
This is naive.
I still think this is relevant, but when I was a kid and we knew another boy was gay, yeah they were pretty much bullied nonstop.

Gays can be bullies just as much as straights. I'm not naive, I speak from experience which is much longer than yours.  ;)
I've never met a single gay bully in my life. Are they the new boogeymen?

Funny...I have met a lot.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Αριστοκλής on January 30, 2013, 07:03:23 AM
Sadly, that's not always the case, especially if the straight boy is younger, smaller, or susceptible to bullying and coercion.

I know for a fact your supposition occurs in fact. And the effects of these encounters can be tragic for the victim later in life (but not long made apparent). Such predation can start very early. 

Sorry you're getting flack for posting the truth.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: LBK on January 30, 2013, 07:05:50 AM
Sadly, that's not always the case, especially if the straight boy is younger, smaller, or susceptible to bullying and coercion.

I know for a fact your supposition occurs in fact. And the effects of these encounters can be tragic for the victim later in life (but not long made apparent). Such predation can start very early. 

Sorry you're getting flack for posting the truth.

Heh. I'm old enough and ugly enough to not be offended. Comes with the territory of being a grumpy old fart.  ;)
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Iconodule on January 30, 2013, 07:39:10 AM
Quote
If the gay boy becomes attracted to the straight boy, a quick punch in the nuts from the straight boy will put an end to that right quick!

... if the straight boy has enough gumption to do it, sure. And he should!

Sadly, that's not always the case, especially if the straight boy is younger, smaller, or susceptible to bullying and coercion.
This is naive.
I still think this is relevant, but when I was a kid and we knew another boy was gay, yeah they were pretty much bullied nonstop.

Gays can be bullies just as much as straights. I'm not naive, I speak from experience which is much longer than yours.  ;)
I've never met a single gay bully in my life. Are they the new boogeymen?

My dear A, you forget I'm MUCH older than you.  :-*

And yet, those a quarter of your age seem to exercise more keen judgement when it comes to dealing with groups who have been for the most part on the short end of stick when it comes violence.

I make no distinction between unwanted sexual advances between straight males on females, lesbians against straight females, or homosexual males on straight male. Predatory sexual behavior is a violation, and all who are on the receiving end of such attacks (and they need not be violent) have the right and prerogative to fend off the perpetrator.

Or are certain people here wishing to make a distinction as to how homosexual and heterosexual predation be dealt with?  >:(

None of this is relevant to allowing gays in the boy scouts. Next...
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on January 30, 2013, 07:47:22 AM
Quote
If the gay boy becomes attracted to the straight boy, a quick punch in the nuts from the straight boy will put an end to that right quick!

... if the straight boy has enough gumption to do it, sure. And he should!

Sadly, that's not always the case, especially if the straight boy is younger, smaller, or susceptible to bullying and coercion.
This is naive.
I still think this is relevant, but when I was a kid and we knew another boy was gay, yeah they were pretty much bullied nonstop.

Gays can be bullies just as much as straights. I'm not naive, I speak from experience which is much longer than yours.  ;)
I've never met a single gay bully in my life. Are they the new boogeymen?

My dear A, you forget I'm MUCH older than you.  :-*

And yet, those a quarter of your age seem to exercise more keen judgement when it comes to dealing with groups who have been for the most part on the short end of stick when it comes violence.

I make no distinction between unwanted sexual advances between straight males on females, lesbians against straight females, or homosexual males on straight male. Predatory sexual behavior is a violation, and all who are on the receiving end of such attacks (and they need not be violent) have the right and prerogative to fend off the perpetrator.

Or are certain people here wishing to make a distinction as to how homosexual and heterosexual predation be dealt with?  >:(

None of this is relevant to allowing gays in the boy scouts. Next...
Your thorough lack of understanding his position is not only part of the problem, but pretty much the entire problem.  How is this not relevant?  Do you not comprehend the purpose of the Boy Scouts in general?  I suppose it makes no difference at this station in history as the Boy Scouts have already sold out on almost every other founding principle on which they were established.  This is just one more rung removed from the ladder in the mission to make it two really tall and useless poles.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Shiny on January 30, 2013, 08:03:04 AM
Your thorough lack of understanding his position is not only part of the problem, but pretty much the entire problem.  How is this not relevant?  Do you not comprehend the purpose of the Boy Scouts in general?  I suppose it makes no difference at this station in history as the Boy Scouts have already sold out on almost every other founding principle on which they were established.  This is just one more rung removed from the ladder in the mission to make it two really tall and useless poles.
I loled.

So gay boys shouldn't be allowed because why again?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on January 30, 2013, 08:17:33 AM
I don't see how supporting BSA means promoting homosexuality. The only potential issue I see is having a gay boy sleep in the same room/tent and/or use the same shower facilities at the same time as other boys, in which case, there could potentially be problems. That's why the boys and girls are divided. What could we do for homosexual members? Why not put homosexual boys into the girl scouts and homosexual girls into the boy scouts? Then again, the girls might feel uncomfortable having a boy--even if he is gay--constantly around them. And the lesbian girl could be raped by the boys.

Gay boy scouts have been sleeping in the same tents as straight boy scouts since the start of the scouting movement.
not openly they haven't. Sort of like stating the fact that every army has always had enemy agents in it.

Then we should take down the fences of our bases and let them all join.  Since they have always been there and stuff.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: stavros_388 on January 30, 2013, 08:39:56 AM
Quote
If the gay boy becomes attracted to the straight boy, a quick punch in the nuts from the straight boy will put an end to that right quick!

... if the straight boy has enough gumption to do it, sure. And he should!

Sadly, that's not always the case, especially if the straight boy is younger, smaller, or susceptible to bullying and coercion.
This is naive.
I still think this is relevant, but when I was a kid and we knew another boy was gay, yeah they were pretty much bullied nonstop.

Gays can be bullies just as much as straights. I'm not naive, I speak from experience which is much longer than yours.  ;)
I've never met a single gay bully in my life. Are they the new boogeymen?

Funny...I have met a lot.

Of course you have...  ::)

In the real world, however, statistics gathered show that homosexuals are far more often the victims of bullying rather than the perpetrators:

Among the findings of the 2009 Canadian Climate Survey on Homophobia:

59 per cent of LGBTQ high school students reported they were verbally harassed, compared to seven per cent of non-LGBTQ students.
25 per cent of LGBTQ students indicated being physically harassed due to their sexual orientation, compared to eight per cent of non-LGBTQ students.
31 per cent of LGBTQ students reported personal harassment on the internet or via text messaging, compared to eight per cent of non-LGBTQ students.
73 per cent of LGBTQ students reported they felt unsafe at school, compared to 20 per cent who did not.
51 per cent of LGBTQ students reported they did not feel accepted at school, compared to 19 per cent of non-LGBTQ students

A 2009 survey of U.S. students in Grades 6-12 also suggests being bullied at school is more likely for sexual minorities. Some key findings:

85 per cent of LGBTQ students reported being verbally harassed at school in the past year because of their sexual orientation.
40 per cent reported being physically harassed.
19 per cent reported being physically assaulted

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2010/10/29/gay-bullying-statistics.html
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: brastaseptim on January 30, 2013, 08:46:05 AM
Gay kids? Making sexual advances on the straight kids? LBK, you do realise they'd be outnumbered, shunned and outed if they tried that, all at once? If you're as much as SUSPECTED of having same-sex attraction in the Boy Scouts, you'd be lucky to last the week before running out of camp, screaming hysterically. And strangely enough, I did actually hear of that almost happening one year.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on January 30, 2013, 08:50:03 AM
Quote
If the gay boy becomes attracted to the straight boy, a quick punch in the nuts from the straight boy will put an end to that right quick!

... if the straight boy has enough gumption to do it, sure. And he should!

Sadly, that's not always the case, especially if the straight boy is younger, smaller, or susceptible to bullying and coercion.
This is naive.
I still think this is relevant, but when I was a kid and we knew another boy was gay, yeah they were pretty much bullied nonstop.

Gays can be bullies just as much as straights. I'm not naive, I speak from experience which is much longer than yours.  ;)
I've never met a single gay bully in my life. Are they the new boogeymen?

Funny...I have met a lot.

Of course you have...  ::)

My mistake.  Apparently, I have not.  Thanks for correcting me.  Anything else I have not personally experienced I need to know about?

In the real world, however, statistics gathered show that all sorts of people are victims of bullying rather than the perpetrators.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: ialmisry on January 30, 2013, 09:56:40 AM
Gay kids? Making sexual advances on the straight kids? LBK, you do realise they'd be outnumbered, shunned and outed if they tried that, all at once? If you're as much as SUSPECTED of having same-sex attraction in the Boy Scouts, you'd be lucky to last the week before running out of camp, screaming hysterically. And strangely enough, I did actually hear of that almost happening one year.
Sorry to ruin your scholastic exercise, but yes, "gay kids making sexual advances on the straight kids" happens.

Btw, the Human Sexuality (re)education course at DePaul used to tell the straight students to take it as a compliment.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Iconodule on January 30, 2013, 09:57:56 AM
The ridiculous objection of "what if the gay kid's a bully?" is such an absurd, flamboyant, dazzling non sequitur, one might call it "fabulous"
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: ialmisry on January 30, 2013, 09:59:00 AM
Quote
If the gay boy becomes attracted to the straight boy, a quick punch in the nuts from the straight boy will put an end to that right quick!

... if the straight boy has enough gumption to do it, sure. And he should!

Sadly, that's not always the case, especially if the straight boy is younger, smaller, or susceptible to bullying and coercion.
This is naive.
I still think this is relevant, but when I was a kid and we knew another boy was gay, yeah they were pretty much bullied nonstop.

Gays can be bullies just as much as straights. I'm not naive, I speak from experience which is much longer than yours.  ;)
I've never met a single gay bully in my life. Are they the new boogeymen?

Funny...I have met a lot.

Of course you have...  ::)

In the real world, however, statistics gathered show that homosexuals are far more often the victims of bullying rather than the perpetrators:

Among the findings of the 2009 Canadian Climate Survey on Homophobia:

59 per cent of LGBTQ high school students reported they were verbally harassed, compared to seven per cent of non-LGBTQ students.
25 per cent of LGBTQ students indicated being physically harassed due to their sexual orientation, compared to eight per cent of non-LGBTQ students.
31 per cent of LGBTQ students reported personal harassment on the internet or via text messaging, compared to eight per cent of non-LGBTQ students.
73 per cent of LGBTQ students reported they felt unsafe at school, compared to 20 per cent who did not.
51 per cent of LGBTQ students reported they did not feel accepted at school, compared to 19 per cent of non-LGBTQ students

A 2009 survey of U.S. students in Grades 6-12 also suggests being bullied at school is more likely for sexual minorities. Some key findings:

85 per cent of LGBTQ students reported being verbally harassed at school in the past year because of their sexual orientation.
40 per cent reported being physically harassed.
19 per cent reported being physically assaulted

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2010/10/29/gay-bullying-statistics.html
Darrell Huff "How to Lie with Statistics" Penguin Books 1973

http://archive.org/details/HowToLieWithStatistics

your survey didn't ask them about bullying heterosexuals, now, did it?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: ialmisry on January 30, 2013, 10:03:51 AM
The ridiculous objection of "what if the gay kid's a bully?" is such an absurd, flamboyant, dazzling non sequitur, one might call it "fabulous"
in a world that takes gay "marriage" as normal, everything is "fabulous."  Or rather, nothing is fabulous.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: ialmisry on January 30, 2013, 10:07:00 AM
Quote
If the gay boy becomes attracted to the straight boy, a quick punch in the nuts from the straight boy will put an end to that right quick!

... if the straight boy has enough gumption to do it, sure. And he should!

Sadly, that's not always the case, especially if the straight boy is younger, smaller, or susceptible to bullying and coercion.
This is naive.
I still think this is relevant, but when I was a kid and we knew another boy was gay, yeah they were pretty much bullied nonstop.

Gays can be bullies just as much as straights. I'm not naive, I speak from experience which is much longer than yours.  ;)
I've never met a single gay bully in my life. Are they the new boogeymen?

My dear A, you forget I'm MUCH older than you.  :-*

And yet, those a quarter of your age seem to exercise more keen judgement when it comes to dealing with groups who have been for the most part on the short end of stick when it comes violence.

I make no distinction between unwanted sexual advances between straight males on females, lesbians against straight females, or homosexual males on straight male. Predatory sexual behavior is a violation, and all who are on the receiving end of such attacks (and they need not be violent) have the right and prerogative to fend off the perpetrator.

Or are certain people here wishing to make a distinction as to how homosexual and heterosexual predation be dealt with?  >:(

None of this is relevant to allowing gays in the boy scouts. Next...
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_BTYoDK-3x2k/TGxtaoe9zKI/AAAAAAAAABg/E2bT8AEU9_Y/s1600/sweep+under+rug.jpg)
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: ialmisry on January 30, 2013, 10:10:18 AM
Sadly, that's not always the case, especially if the straight boy is younger, smaller, or susceptible to bullying and coercion.

I know for a fact your supposition occurs in fact. And the effects of these encounters can be tragic for the victim later in life (but not long made apparent). Such predation can start very early. 

Sorry you're getting flack for posting the truth.
I remember a number of such incidents occuring in the psych history of a number of our patients when I worked in the locked unit of the Psych hospital.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: ialmisry on January 30, 2013, 10:12:41 AM
Since when is "sexual orientation" comparable to a religion?

For some people it seems they are identical, since this is the only thing their religion seems to care about. But never mind that...

The argument is, "If an organization allows someone who is x to be a member, then hosting that organization means endorsing x." You either take that logic to its ultimate, silly conclusion or you shouldn't employ it at all.
To answer the original question, when it has an agenda.

And the gays in this case certainly have an agenda.

Now, if you let an openly gay scout in, you're going to either a) have to him sleep in the same tent as the other boy(s) or b) have him sleep by himself.  b somewhat contradicts the whole point of scouting. a raising the question of why they couldn't have a girl sleep in the same tent (they've already had the battle of girls being let into Boy Scouts.

Do I have to explain to the silly why a Church would have a problem with that?
The Church has a problem with a gay person sleeping in the same tent as a straight person?
Only when the straight boy is sexually attracted to gay boys.
So it is fine if the straight boy is sexually attracted to straight girls?
As long as you don't allow the straight boy and the straight girl to sleep in the same tent.
If we let the gay boy sleep in the same tent with the straight boy (let alone with another gay boy), why not?
What about mutual attraction do you not understand? Boys and girls are made to be mutually attracted to each other for the propagation of our race. Two gay boys or two lesbian girls may likely become mutually attracted to each other. But a gay boy and a straight boy? If the gay boy becomes attracted to the straight boy, a quick punch in the nuts from the straight boy will put an end to that right quick!

It will also get him kicked out of the scouts, his parents taken to court, and him belittled as a bigot, hater and homophobe...unjustly, but then again, who cares about that as long as the homosexuals get what they want.
surely such things NEVER happen ::)
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: ialmisry on January 30, 2013, 10:13:40 AM
Since when is "sexual orientation" comparable to a religion?

It became comparable right around the same time someone created the phrase.
+1
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Peter J on January 30, 2013, 12:02:58 PM
What if the gay boy is tougher than the other boys and rapes someone?

I don't want to turn into someone always complaining that people don't use enough emoticons, but in this thread it getting tough to know which posts are sarcastic and which are serious.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Iconodule on January 30, 2013, 12:12:25 PM
What if the gay boy is tougher than the other boys and rapes someone?

I don't want to turn into someone always complaining that people don't use enough emoticons, but in this thread it getting tough to know which posts are sarcastic and which are serious.

I'd say it's a serious problem to consider. What are we to do about hulking gay giants from the Hyperborean wastes who want to join the Boy Scouts with mighty sword in hand? Do we leave them out to endure the elements at night? Do we simply form a separate troop entirely for such boys, and stay well clear of them as they hack their way through the Appalachian trail?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: ialmisry on January 30, 2013, 03:17:10 PM
What if the gay boy is tougher than the other boys and rapes someone?

I don't want to turn into someone always complaining that people don't use enough emoticons, but in this thread it getting tough to know which posts are sarcastic and which are serious.

I'd say it's a serious problem to consider. What are we to do about hulking gay giants from the Hyperborean wastes who want to join the Boy Scouts with mighty sword in hand? Do we leave them out to endure the elements at night? Do we simply form a separate troop entirely for such boys, and stay well clear of them as they hack their way through the Appalachian trail?
they already have that
(http://pittqueercinema.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/bbm-3.jpg)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qNfGiEHuUg
WARNING: Broke Back Mountain, the "Tent Scene."
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Deep Roots on January 30, 2013, 03:20:44 PM
they already have that
(http://pittqueercinema.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/bbm-3.jpg)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qNfGiEHuUg
WARNING: Broke Back Mountain, the "Tent Scene."
great movie.  powerful and compassionate story.  ang lee is awesome
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: ialmisry on January 30, 2013, 03:28:26 PM
they already have that
(http://pittqueercinema.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/bbm-3.jpg)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qNfGiEHuUg
WARNING: Broke Back Mountain, the "Tent Scene."
great movie.  powerful and compassionate story.  ang lee is awesome
Would Alma and Lureen see it that way?  Should they?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Deep Roots on January 30, 2013, 03:50:40 PM
they already have that
(http://pittqueercinema.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/bbm-3.jpg)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qNfGiEHuUg
WARNING: Broke Back Mountain, the "Tent Scene."
great movie.  powerful and compassionate story.  ang lee is awesome
Would Alma and Lureen see it that way?  Should they?

absolutely not.  they were devastated.  Notice, I just said that the movie was compassionate, not that the characters always made the right choices.  Ang Lee's FILM is compassionate.

For Alma and Lureen, too.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: brastaseptim on January 30, 2013, 03:55:04 PM
Gay kids? Making sexual advances on the straight kids? LBK, you do realise they'd be outnumbered, shunned and outed if they tried that, all at once? If you're as much as SUSPECTED of having same-sex attraction in the Boy Scouts, you'd be lucky to last the week before running out of camp, screaming hysterically. And strangely enough, I did actually hear of that almost happening one year.
Sorry to ruin your scholastic exercise, but yes, "gay kids making sexual advances on the straight kids" happens.

Btw, the Human Sexuality (re)education course at DePaul used to tell the straight students to take it as a compliment.

The "scholastic exercise" is from personal experience, something you might lack in the matter. We're talking specifically about within the Boy Scouts here. I will admit I do not have the proper knowledge to verify outside of that area. Let me rephrase what I said; sexual advances do happen, but they NEVER end well, and that's why they're mostly avoided. Mostly any advances are made in the hope that the straight guy isn't straight. This usually ends in two ways- one,  the straight guy curtly shoots him down. In the other, the gay guy gets clobbered, taunted, outed and humiliated, usually one after another. I've seen it happen before, and I'm quite sure I'll see it happen again.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: ialmisry on January 30, 2013, 04:14:58 PM
Gay kids? Making sexual advances on the straight kids? LBK, you do realise they'd be outnumbered, shunned and outed if they tried that, all at once? If you're as much as SUSPECTED of having same-sex attraction in the Boy Scouts, you'd be lucky to last the week before running out of camp, screaming hysterically. And strangely enough, I did actually hear of that almost happening one year.
Sorry to ruin your scholastic exercise, but yes, "gay kids making sexual advances on the straight kids" happens.

Btw, the Human Sexuality (re)education course at DePaul used to tell the straight students to take it as a compliment.

The "scholastic exercise" is from personal experience, something you might lack in the matter.
You seemed to categorically deny that gay kids make sexual advances on straight kids.  How does one have personal experience from non-existent events?

Kerdy said it best:
My mistake.  Apparently, I have not.  Thanks for correcting me.  Anything else I have not personally experienced I need to know about?

We're talking specifically about within the Boy Scouts here. I will admit I do not have the proper knowledge to verify outside of that area. Let me rephrase what I said; sexual advances do happen, but they NEVER end well, and that's why they're mostly avoided. Mostly any advances are made in the hope that the straight guy isn't straight. This usually ends in two ways- one,  the straight guy curtly shoots him down. In the other, the gay guy gets clobbered, taunted, outed and humiliated, usually one after another. I've seen it happen before, and I'm quite sure I'll see it happen again.
and the boys scouts is the appropriate place to make sexual advances why again?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: brastaseptim on January 30, 2013, 04:23:01 PM
Never said it didn't happen; forgive me if that was the implication. I just haven't seen a lot of them happen IN THE BOY SCOUTS. I have seen such advances outside boy Scouts. I said it was mostly avoided, however, because 1. It's really not a good idea. and 2. and that any said advances did not end well. Implying that they were not appropriate.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: JamesR on January 30, 2013, 04:31:38 PM
All pubescent kids are going to make sexual advances at each other sooner or later--homosexual or heterosexual...
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on January 30, 2013, 08:41:03 PM
I don't see how supporting BSA means promoting homosexuality. The only potential issue I see is having a gay boy sleep in the same room/tent and/or use the same shower facilities at the same time as other boys, in which case, there could potentially be problems. That's why the boys and girls are divided.
I see you don't understand the concept of mutual attraction, either. ::) Personally, I don't have a problem with a gay boy sleeping in the same tent as a straight boy and using the same facilities as the straight boys unless one or more of the boys, gay or straight, causes a problem. I just wouldn't put two gay boys in the same tent.

What if the gay boy is tougher than the other boys and rapes someone?
Well, then, that's a problem. But why create such problems before they actually happen?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on January 30, 2013, 08:46:53 PM
All pubescent kids are going to make sexual advances at each other sooner or later--homosexual or heterosexual...
Nobody ever made a sexual advance on me when I was growing up, nor did I ever make a sexual advance on someone else. I therefore don't understand why you have such a low opinion of teenagers.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: orthonorm on January 30, 2013, 08:48:46 PM
All pubescent kids are going to make sexual advances at each other sooner or later--homosexual or heterosexual...
Nobody ever made a sexual advance on me when I was growing up, nor did I ever make a sexual advance on someone else. I therefore don't understand why you have such a low opinion of teenagers.

Peter, we need to have a LONG talk.

And really, you of all people committing such a misstep in logic?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: JamesR on January 30, 2013, 08:50:48 PM
All pubescent kids are going to make sexual advances at each other sooner or later--homosexual or heterosexual...
Nobody ever made a sexual advance on me when I was growing up, nor did I ever make a sexual advance on someone else. I therefore don't understand why you have such a low opinion of teenagers.

Maybe because I am a teenager with raging hormones and know how despicable we are? Then again, adults are the same way; they're just better at hiding it.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: JamesR on January 30, 2013, 08:58:16 PM
And what is it with this romanticized, innocent 1950s view of youth that so many folks on here have with teenagers? We're not that great. We have sex (or at least think about it all the time), get pregnant, do drugs, sneak out, get drunk, argue with our parents, vandalize private property etc. We're not good people.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: JamesRottnek on January 30, 2013, 10:55:07 PM
Quote
If the gay boy becomes attracted to the straight boy, a quick punch in the nuts from the straight boy will put an end to that right quick!

... if the straight boy has enough gumption to do it, sure. And he should!

Sadly, that's not always the case, especially if the straight boy is younger, smaller, or susceptible to bullying and coercion.
This is naive.
I still think this is relevant, but when I was a kid and we knew another boy was gay, yeah they were pretty much bullied nonstop.

Gays can be bullies just as much as straights. I'm not naive, I speak from experience which is much longer than yours.  ;)
I've never met a single gay bully in my life. Are they the new boogeymen?

My dear A, you forget I'm MUCH older than you.  :-*

And yet, those a quarter of your age seem to exercise more keen judgement when it comes to dealing with groups who have been for the most part on the short end of stick when it comes violence.

I make no distinction between unwanted sexual advances between straight males on females, lesbians against straight females, or homosexual males on straight male. Predatory sexual behavior is a violation, and all who are on the receiving end of such attacks (and they need not be violent) have the right and prerogative to fend off the perpetrator.

Or are certain people here wishing to make a distinction as to how homosexual and heterosexual predation be dealt with?  >:(

What do you consider a "sexual advance" to be?

Are you serious?

Yes
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on January 31, 2013, 01:11:45 AM
All pubescent kids are going to make sexual advances at each other sooner or later--homosexual or heterosexual...
Nobody ever made a sexual advance on me when I was growing up, nor did I ever make a sexual advance on someone else. I therefore don't understand why you have such a low opinion of teenagers.

Peter, we need to have a LONG talk.

And really, you of all people committing such a misstep in logic?
Actually not a misstep, in that all it takes is one contrary example to disprove JamesR's hasty generalization. :police:
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: mark thomas on January 31, 2013, 03:02:40 AM
There is an ongoing misconception in this thread: As a former Adult Leader, to the best of my knowledge,the BSA does not prohibit gay kids from becoming scouts. The BSA does not inquire about a.potential scouts sexual orientation.  The rule only applies to the adult leaders.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: JamesRottnek on January 31, 2013, 03:09:38 AM
There is an ongoing misconception in this thread: As a former Adult Leader, to the best of my knowledge,the BSA does not prohibit gay kids from becoming scouts. The BSA does not inquire about a.potential scouts sexual orientation.  The rule only applies to the adult leaders.

Then why exactly was an openly gay scout recently denied Eagle Scout on the basis of his sexual orientation?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on January 31, 2013, 03:13:46 AM
There is an ongoing misconception in this thread: As a former Adult Leader, to the best of my knowledge,the BSA does not prohibit gay kids from becoming scouts. The BSA does not inquire about a.potential scouts sexual orientation.  The rule only applies to the adult leaders.
To the contrary, the Boy Scouts DO ban those boys they know to be gay and will expel those who "come out of the closet". They may not ask a boy about his sexual orientation, but they certainly take action against those boys who tell the truth about themselves.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: mark thomas on January 31, 2013, 04:32:14 AM
I do not recall seeing anything in the (scout's) application, the Boy Scout Manual, or in the youth protection classes I took.  Nor did I observe anything to indicate that a boy could be banned from scouting for sexual orientation. However, I was only involved with my local troop. Can you cite anything from an official Boy Scout source?  This is the closest thing I can find on the subject, and I can't find anything to indicate a boy has ever had his membership revoked because of his sexual orientation.  (Scouts Helping Scouts, a website associated with Venturing)
http://www.venturingbsa.com/scouting.d/faq.d/issues.d/homosexuality.html
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Jetavan on January 31, 2013, 08:20:55 AM
Southern Baptists could stop sponsoring BSA units (http://www.abpnews.com/culture/social-issues/item/8178-sbc-says-ras-could-rival-scouting#.UQpe27-7PoI), and instead adopt the "Royal Ambassadors (http://www.wmu.com/index.php?q=children/royal-ambassadors/welcome-ras)":

Quote
"Royal Ambassadors espouses many of the same virtues and character-building activities that are found in Boy Scouts but with the added benefit for Southern Baptists that our primary goal is developing boys into men who understand the mission of God and carry the Gospel with them into the world," commented Richard Bodenhamer, a marketing specialist at Woman's Missionary Union, an auxiliary to the Southern Baptist Convention based in Birmingham, Ala.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: mark thomas on January 31, 2013, 11:35:15 AM
@JamesRottnek - Your post is the first I've heard of this, so I looked it up. It appears I may be incorrect about scout membership rules,  though I still can't find anything on an official BSA site.  As to the young man denied his Eagle,  it appears he also openly stated he disagreed with the Scout's policy regarding duty to God, (that alone is valid grounds for denial) and there are conflicting reports as to wether he submitted for his Eagle before his 18th birthday. I did see that his sexual orientation was cited as grounds for denial as well.

I guess all I can add is that when I was involved in Scouting, I observed a culture that was a lot more tolerant than his case (or most of the stuff posted on this thread) would reflect.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on January 31, 2013, 02:29:19 PM
I do not recall seeing anything in the (scout's) application, the Boy Scout Manual, or in the youth protection classes I took.  Nor did I observe anything to indicate that a boy could be banned from scouting for sexual orientation. However, I was only involved with my local troop. Can you cite anything from an official Boy Scout source?  This is the closest thing I can find on the subject, and I can't find anything to indicate a boy has ever had his membership revoked because of his sexual orientation.  (Scouts Helping Scouts, a website associated with Venturing)
http://www.venturingbsa.com/scouting.d/faq.d/issues.d/homosexuality.html
I've not been involved in any way with the Boy Scouts since I left as a Star scout at the age of 15, so I don't know the more recent BSA manuals. Therefore, I can't say I know of any official BSA document that says a scout can be expelled from the Boy Scouts for revealing that he's gay, but I am familiar enough with the news to know that scouts have been expelled for revealing that they're gay.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: JamesR on February 01, 2013, 12:24:36 AM
Is it natural that my parents have actually asked me in the past on more than one occassion if I was gay because I'm "too quiet" and "never with a girl"?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 01, 2013, 04:32:12 AM
Is it natural that my parents have actually asked me in the past on more than one occassion if I was gay because I'm "too quiet" and "never with a girl"?
No, it's just because you're weird, just like me. ;)
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 01, 2013, 04:48:48 AM
Southern Baptists could stop sponsoring BSA units (http://www.abpnews.com/culture/social-issues/item/8178-sbc-says-ras-could-rival-scouting#.UQpe27-7PoI), and instead adopt the "Royal Ambassadors (http://www.wmu.com/index.php?q=children/royal-ambassadors/welcome-ras)":

Quote
"Royal Ambassadors espouses many of the same virtues and character-building activities that are found in Boy Scouts but with the added benefit for Southern Baptists that our primary goal is developing boys into men who understand the mission of God and carry the Gospel with them into the world," commented Richard Bodenhamer, a marketing specialist at Woman's Missionary Union, an auxiliary to the Southern Baptist Convention based in Birmingham, Ala.

Whatever is best for the kids, and the Boy Scouts seem not to be that at all.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Agabus on February 01, 2013, 11:39:29 AM
Southern Baptists could stop sponsoring BSA units (http://www.abpnews.com/culture/social-issues/item/8178-sbc-says-ras-could-rival-scouting#.UQpe27-7PoI), and instead adopt the "Royal Ambassadors (http://www.wmu.com/index.php?q=children/royal-ambassadors/welcome-ras)":

Quote
"Royal Ambassadors espouses many of the same virtues and character-building activities that are found in Boy Scouts but with the added benefit for Southern Baptists that our primary goal is developing boys into men who understand the mission of God and carry the Gospel with them into the world," commented Richard Bodenhamer, a marketing specialist at Woman's Missionary Union, an auxiliary to the Southern Baptist Convention based in Birmingham, Ala.
I was under the impression that the RAs were an SBC program.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Jetavan on February 01, 2013, 11:49:09 AM
Southern Baptists could stop sponsoring BSA units (http://www.abpnews.com/culture/social-issues/item/8178-sbc-says-ras-could-rival-scouting#.UQpe27-7PoI), and instead adopt the "Royal Ambassadors (http://www.wmu.com/index.php?q=children/royal-ambassadors/welcome-ras)":

Quote
"Royal Ambassadors espouses many of the same virtues and character-building activities that are found in Boy Scouts but with the added benefit for Southern Baptists that our primary goal is developing boys into men who understand the mission of God and carry the Gospel with them into the world," commented Richard Bodenhamer, a marketing specialist at Woman's Missionary Union, an auxiliary to the Southern Baptist Convention based in Birmingham, Ala.
I was under the impression that the RAs were an SBC program.
Yep, it is.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 01, 2013, 03:09:26 PM
Southern Baptists could stop sponsoring BSA units (http://www.abpnews.com/culture/social-issues/item/8178-sbc-says-ras-could-rival-scouting#.UQpe27-7PoI), and instead adopt the "Royal Ambassadors (http://www.wmu.com/index.php?q=children/royal-ambassadors/welcome-ras)":

Quote
"Royal Ambassadors espouses many of the same virtues and character-building activities that are found in Boy Scouts but with the added benefit for Southern Baptists that our primary goal is developing boys into men who understand the mission of God and carry the Gospel with them into the world," commented Richard Bodenhamer, a marketing specialist at Woman's Missionary Union, an auxiliary to the Southern Baptist Convention based in Birmingham, Ala.

Whatever is best for the kids, and the Boy Scouts seem not to be that at all.
How do you mean?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 01, 2013, 05:41:46 PM
Southern Baptists could stop sponsoring BSA units (http://www.abpnews.com/culture/social-issues/item/8178-sbc-says-ras-could-rival-scouting#.UQpe27-7PoI), and instead adopt the "Royal Ambassadors (http://www.wmu.com/index.php?q=children/royal-ambassadors/welcome-ras)":

Quote
"Royal Ambassadors espouses many of the same virtues and character-building activities that are found in Boy Scouts but with the added benefit for Southern Baptists that our primary goal is developing boys into men who understand the mission of God and carry the Gospel with them into the world," commented Richard Bodenhamer, a marketing specialist at Woman's Missionary Union, an auxiliary to the Southern Baptist Convention based in Birmingham, Ala.

Whatever is best for the kids, and the Boy Scouts seem not to be that at all.
How do you mean?

Kids traditionally join the Scouts to have fun, not to have a political agenda forced on them. 

They would join the scouts to learn how to be “men”, but a lot of that has changed over the years.  Organizations can no longer teach what they believe in, unless of course that organization is in line with the PC police, at which time they can do whatever they want.  But, if you rub against the modern grain, you best be prepared for all sorts of problems and court action and a truck load of other manure headed your way. 

It’s just sad to see good organizations falling apart as a result of PC rubbish.  The only solution left, since no one has the spine to fight back anymore, is to create new organizations and let the PC tools have what they think is a victory.  Bottom line is, kids join groups to have fun and enjoy being around other kids looking for the same stuff, with the same interests, with whom they can relate.  I will stop here, because I can go on and on about all sorts of things, but PC hypocrisy gets me irritated and I do not want it to spill over into my posts.

Let the attacks begin…
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: JamesRottnek on February 01, 2013, 06:10:19 PM
Southern Baptists could stop sponsoring BSA units (http://www.abpnews.com/culture/social-issues/item/8178-sbc-says-ras-could-rival-scouting#.UQpe27-7PoI), and instead adopt the "Royal Ambassadors (http://www.wmu.com/index.php?q=children/royal-ambassadors/welcome-ras)":

Quote
"Royal Ambassadors espouses many of the same virtues and character-building activities that are found in Boy Scouts but with the added benefit for Southern Baptists that our primary goal is developing boys into men who understand the mission of God and carry the Gospel with them into the world," commented Richard Bodenhamer, a marketing specialist at Woman's Missionary Union, an auxiliary to the Southern Baptist Convention based in Birmingham, Ala.

Whatever is best for the kids, and the Boy Scouts seem not to be that at all.
How do you mean?

Kids traditionally join the Scouts to have fun, not to have a political agenda forced on them. 

They would join the scouts to learn how to be “men”, but a lot of that has changed over the years.  Organizations can no longer teach what they believe in, unless of course that organization is in line with the PC police, at which time they can do whatever they want.  But, if you rub against the modern grain, you best be prepared for all sorts of problems and court action and a truck load of other manure headed your way. 

It’s just sad to see good organizations falling apart as a result of PC rubbish.  The only solution left, since no one has the spine to fight back anymore, is to create new organizations and let the PC tools have what they think is a victory.  Bottom line is, kids join groups to have fun and enjoy being around other kids looking for the same stuff, with the same interests, with whom they can relate.  I will stop here, because I can go on and on about all sorts of things, but PC hypocrisy gets me irritated and I do not want it to spill over into my posts.

Let the attacks begin…


So now the very presence of openly gay people in the Scouts amounts to "forcing a political agenda" upon the Scouts?  Really?  Church is also not a place for forced political agendas, I suppose you want to kick gays out of Church too.  School's also not a place for forced political agendas, I suppose you want to kick gays out of schools too.

Why don't you just admit it: you hate gay people and would be perfectly pleased if they all died.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: biro on February 01, 2013, 06:10:44 PM
Quote from: Kerdy
Kids traditionally join the Scouts to have fun, not to have a political agenda forced on them. 

Like yours?

Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: biro on February 01, 2013, 06:12:17 PM
Quote from: JamesRottnek
Why don't you just admit it: you hate gay people and would be perfectly pleased if they all died.

Shhh, he thinks he's saving somebody. From something.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Peter J on February 01, 2013, 06:13:02 PM
Southern Baptists could stop sponsoring BSA units (http://www.abpnews.com/culture/social-issues/item/8178-sbc-says-ras-could-rival-scouting#.UQpe27-7PoI), and instead adopt the "Royal Ambassadors (http://www.wmu.com/index.php?q=children/royal-ambassadors/welcome-ras)":

Quote
"Royal Ambassadors espouses many of the same virtues and character-building activities that are found in Boy Scouts but with the added benefit for Southern Baptists that our primary goal is developing boys into men who understand the mission of God and carry the Gospel with them into the world," commented Richard Bodenhamer, a marketing specialist at Woman's Missionary Union, an auxiliary to the Southern Baptist Convention based in Birmingham, Ala.

Whatever is best for the kids, and the Boy Scouts seem not to be that at all.
How do you mean?

Kids traditionally join the Scouts to have fun, not to have a political agenda forced on them.  

They would join the scouts to learn how to be “men”, but a lot of that has changed over the years.  Organizations can no longer teach what they believe in, unless of course that organization is in line with the PC police, at which time they can do whatever they want.  But, if you rub against the modern grain, you best be prepared for all sorts of problems and court action and a truck load of other manure headed your way.  

It’s just sad to see good organizations falling apart as a result of PC rubbish.  The only solution left, since no one has the spine to fight back anymore, is to create new organizations and let the PC tools have what they think is a victory.  Bottom line is, kids join groups to have fun and enjoy being around other kids looking for the same stuff, with the same interests, with whom they can relate.  I will stop here, because I can go on and on about all sorts of things, but PC hypocrisy gets me irritated and I do not want it to spill over into my posts.

Let the attacks begin…

begin?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Deep Roots on February 01, 2013, 06:14:38 PM
Quote from: Kerdy
Kids traditionally join the Scouts to have fun, not to have a political agenda forced on them. 

Like yours?


wait-- what's the political agenda?  I mean, seriously, from a child's perspective there is no agenda, here, is there?

If your kid goes to a Scout meeting, do the kids and counselors all wear gay signs if they're gay?  no.  a kid shows up -- there are other kids to have fun with, and there are adult counselors.

That's all they'll see.

No agenda is being forced on a kid, unless having fun is on the agenda, which, it being a scout meeting, it should be.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: biro on February 01, 2013, 06:16:38 PM
Quote from: Kerdy
Kids traditionally join the Scouts to have fun, not to have a political agenda forced on them. 

Like yours?


wait-- what's the political agenda?  I mean, seriously, from a child's perspective there is no agenda, here, is there?

If your kid goes to a Scout meeting, do the kids and counselors all wear gay signs if they're gay?  no.  a kid shows up -- there are other kids to have fun with, and there are adult counselors.

That's all they'll see.

No agenda is being forced on a kid, unless having fun is on the agenda, which, it being a scout meeting, it should be.

Exactly.  :)
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 01, 2013, 06:20:31 PM
Southern Baptists could stop sponsoring BSA units (http://www.abpnews.com/culture/social-issues/item/8178-sbc-says-ras-could-rival-scouting#.UQpe27-7PoI), and instead adopt the "Royal Ambassadors (http://www.wmu.com/index.php?q=children/royal-ambassadors/welcome-ras)":

Quote
"Royal Ambassadors espouses many of the same virtues and character-building activities that are found in Boy Scouts but with the added benefit for Southern Baptists that our primary goal is developing boys into men who understand the mission of God and carry the Gospel with them into the world," commented Richard Bodenhamer, a marketing specialist at Woman's Missionary Union, an auxiliary to the Southern Baptist Convention based in Birmingham, Ala.

Whatever is best for the kids, and the Boy Scouts seem not to be that at all.
How do you mean?

Kids traditionally join the Scouts to have fun, not to have a political agenda forced on them. 

They would join the scouts to learn how to be “men”, but a lot of that has changed over the years.  Organizations can no longer teach what they believe in, unless of course that organization is in line with the PC police, at which time they can do whatever they want.  But, if you rub against the modern grain, you best be prepared for all sorts of problems and court action and a truck load of other manure headed your way. 

It’s just sad to see good organizations falling apart as a result of PC rubbish.  The only solution left, since no one has the spine to fight back anymore, is to create new organizations and let the PC tools have what they think is a victory.  Bottom line is, kids join groups to have fun and enjoy being around other kids looking for the same stuff, with the same interests, with whom they can relate.  I will stop here, because I can go on and on about all sorts of things, but PC hypocrisy gets me irritated and I do not want it to spill over into my posts.

Let the attacks begin…

I actually agree with you regarding what you have said in your assessment of the current situation with the Boy Scouts. I have fond memories of having been a Boy Scout back in the 1980's, before all this PC nonsense got pushed on the BSA. I, too, am irritated by all these PC "advocates" who think it their job to push their social agenda upon the Boy Scouts, and I am also troubled by what appears to be the first stages of the BSA's capitulation to their demands. The Boy Scouts of America is a private organization with the authority to set their own standards of membership based on their vision of what they want to be. If they don't want to admit openly gay boys and men into their organization, then they have every right to discriminate in this way. I also agree with the mission of the Boy Scouts as it is encoded into the Boy Scout Law and Boy Scout Oath, which includes statements that a Scout will strive to be morally straight and that a scout is reverent. The Boy Scouts see these mandates as not making any place for openly practicing homosexuals in their organization, and I agree with them. I, for one, would not recognize the Boy Scouts as the scouting organization I once knew if they were to kowtow to the gay lobby and lift their ban on openly gay boys and men. I hope and pray that they will continue their fight.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 01, 2013, 06:23:34 PM
Quote from: Kerdy
Kids traditionally join the Scouts to have fun, not to have a political agenda forced on them. 

Like yours?


wait-- what's the political agenda?  I mean, seriously, from a child's perspective there is no agenda, here, is there?

If your kid goes to a Scout meeting, do the kids and counselors all wear gay signs if they're gay?  no.  a kid shows up -- there are other kids to have fun with, and there are adult counselors.

That's all they'll see.

No agenda is being forced on a kid, unless having fun is on the agenda, which, it being a scout meeting, it should be.

Exactly.  :)
There's more to the Boy Scouts than just having fun. The Boy Scouts also see themselves as an organization for helping mold boys into men who are upstanding citizens of our society. I, for one, learned a lot about what it means to be a man through my participation in the Boy Scouts.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Deep Roots on February 01, 2013, 06:25:19 PM
The Boy Scouts of America is a private organization with the authority to set their own standards of membership based on their vision of what they want to be. If they don't want to admit openly gay boys and men into their organization, then they have every right to discriminate in this way.
You are aware that large degree of this agitation for progress on this issue is coming from within the organization, right?  Not sure if you know, but that's how it works with private organizations.

It doesn't count as a violation of the organization's rights as a private entity is the change is being called for by private citizens...and in this case, by leaders and members of the Scouts.  That's how it works, just so you know.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Deep Roots on February 01, 2013, 06:26:31 PM
There's more to the Boy Scouts than just having fun. The Boy Scouts also see themselves as an organization for helping mold boys into men who are upstanding citizens of our society. I, for one, learned a lot about what it means to be a man through my participation in the Boy Scouts.
Thanks for the lesson.  Scanned it twice looking for the relevant part, though.

A gay child cannot learn the same lessons?

Of course not, I'd imagine...in your mind.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Deep Roots on February 01, 2013, 06:27:01 PM
They can't learn to cut firewood because their arms are too limp and they'll get their fingernails dirty?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 01, 2013, 06:30:38 PM
They can't learn to cut firewood because their arms are too limp and they'll get their fingernails dirty?
If you think how to cut firewood is the only lesson one can learn in the Boy Scouts, then you have a lot to learn. Have you ever been in the Boy Scouts or had a son in the Boy Scouts?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on February 01, 2013, 06:33:18 PM
I agree with Peter. It is one thing for gays to advocate for equal treatment under the law, it is another thing all together for them to (a) demand that no one criticize their immoral and sinful life style, (b) demand that society throw away the meaning of marriage between a man and a woman in the name of equality, and (c) demand that private individuals and organizations accept their demand that homosexual lifestyle is normal.  Those who believe that the homosexual lifestyle is wrong have agreed to the decriminalization of homosexual conduct. Now, they are faced with a demand that they approve of homosexual conduct. That's cheeky, don't you think?

Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Deep Roots on February 01, 2013, 06:34:46 PM
They can't learn to cut firewood because their arms are too limp and they'll get their fingernails dirty?
If you think how to cut firewood is the only lesson one can learn in the Boy Scouts, then you have a lot to learn. Have you ever been in the Boy Scouts or had a son in the Boy Scouts?
Why are you missing the forest for the (ahem!) trees?  You're missing the point.

I was in the Scouts for a total of one night as a child, when my father took me to a meeting, looked around and walked out.  Let's just say my Dad wasn't a scout type of dude.  

I really don't care what the Scouts do -- it's a great organization I'm sure, but that wasn't my point: I was taking a shot at stereotypes of gay folks often made by masculinity-obsessed folks.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Deep Roots on February 01, 2013, 06:35:45 PM
I agree with Peter. It is one thing for gays to advocate for equal treatment under the law, it is another thing all together for them to (a) demand that no one criticize their immoral and sinful life style, (b) demand that society throw away the meaning of marriage between a man and a woman in the name of equality, and (c) demand that private individuals and organizations accept their demand that homosexual lifestyle is normal.  Those who believe that the homosexual lifestyle is wrong have agreed to the decriminalization of homosexual conduct. Now, they are faced with a demand that they approve of homosexual conduct. That's cheeky, don't you think?


Sneaky gays.  Sneaky sneaky gays.  Always trying to feel you up when you don't wanna be felt up.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 01, 2013, 06:36:47 PM
There's more to the Boy Scouts than just having fun. The Boy Scouts also see themselves as an organization for helping mold boys into men who are upstanding citizens of our society. I, for one, learned a lot about what it means to be a man through my participation in the Boy Scouts.
Thanks for the lesson.  Scanned it twice looking for the relevant part, though.

A gay child cannot learn the same lessons?

Of course not, I'd imagine...in your mind.
And what is in my mind, O Omniscient Seer? ::)
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 01, 2013, 06:38:20 PM
They can't learn to cut firewood because their arms are too limp and they'll get their fingernails dirty?
If you think how to cut firewood is the only lesson one can learn in the Boy Scouts, then you have a lot to learn. Have you ever been in the Boy Scouts or had a son in the Boy Scouts?
Why are you missing the forest for the (ahem!) trees?  You're missing the point.

I was in the Scouts for a total of one night as a child, when my father took me to a meeting, looked around and walked out.  Let's just say my Dad wasn't a scout type of dude.  

I really don't care what the Scouts do -- it's a great organization I'm sure, but that wasn't my point: I was taking a shot at stereotypes of gay folks often made by masculinity-obsessed folks.
And what does your attack on stereotypes have to do with anything I just said?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 01, 2013, 06:39:33 PM
I agree with Peter. It is one thing for gays to advocate for equal treatment under the law, it is another thing all together for them to (a) demand that no one criticize their immoral and sinful life style, (b) demand that society throw away the meaning of marriage between a man and a woman in the name of equality, and (c) demand that private individuals and organizations accept their demand that homosexual lifestyle is normal.  Those who believe that the homosexual lifestyle is wrong have agreed to the decriminalization of homosexual conduct. Now, they are faced with a demand that they approve of homosexual conduct. That's cheeky, don't you think?


Sneaky gays.  Sneaky sneaky gays.  Always trying to feel you up when you don't wanna be felt up.
I'm sure you're capable of rational thought, though you haven't shown any on this thread. Why don't you actually try just counting to ten and thinking through what you're going to post before you type the post and click Submit? You might actually appear more intelligent.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Deep Roots on February 01, 2013, 06:41:12 PM
"There's more to the Boy Scouts than just having fun. The Boy Scouts also see themselves as an organization for helping mold boys into men who are upstanding citizens of our society."

I could be wrong, but given the context of your response above, it seems that you're insinuating that allowing gays in the BSA would somehow conflict with "helping to mold boys into men."

Am I reading you wrong there?  If so, please help me to understand better.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Deep Roots on February 01, 2013, 06:42:06 PM
I agree with Peter. It is one thing for gays to advocate for equal treatment under the law, it is another thing all together for them to (a) demand that no one criticize their immoral and sinful life style, (b) demand that society throw away the meaning of marriage between a man and a woman in the name of equality, and (c) demand that private individuals and organizations accept their demand that homosexual lifestyle is normal.  Those who believe that the homosexual lifestyle is wrong have agreed to the decriminalization of homosexual conduct. Now, they are faced with a demand that they approve of homosexual conduct. That's cheeky, don't you think?


Sneaky gays.  Sneaky sneaky gays.  Always trying to feel you up when you don't wanna be felt up.
I'm sure you're capable of rational thought, though you haven't shown any on this thread. Why don't you actually try just counting to ten and thinking through what you're going to post before you type the post and click Submit? You might actually appear more intelligent.

Well, they are sneaky aren't they?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: dzheremi on February 01, 2013, 06:43:52 PM
I miss the days when it was confused teenagers coming out as "gay" (as was the case with several people I went to high school with who are now happily, heterosexually married), and not children's civic organizations being seen as legitimate battlegrounds for "gay rights", whether from in-organization members or not. While I'm sure there is more to the BSA and GSA than just cutting firewood or selling delicious mint chocolate cookies, I would be much less likely to support either if the lessons they now teach include indulgence in sexual role modeling behavior or "self-exploration" or "acceptance" or whatever the buzzword for bringing homosexuality and sexual identity politics into every last nook and cranny of society. Nevermind gays or straights, can't children just be children anymore? If they're gay, they can figure that out later, at an appropriate time and place. If the modern leadership of the BSA/GSA thinks that a tent in the woods is such a time and place, then I certainly don't see how anyone can support them, no matter if the kids come out straight or gay or whatever.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 01, 2013, 06:59:01 PM
"There's more to the Boy Scouts than just having fun. The Boy Scouts also see themselves as an organization for helping mold boys into men who are upstanding citizens of our society."

I could be wrong, but given the context of your response above, it seems that you're insinuating that allowing gays in the BSA would somehow conflict with "helping to mold boys into men."

Am I reading you wrong there?  If so, please help me to understand better.
Yes, you are reading me wrong. My comment was directed at those who, as I (mis?)understood them, said that the only agenda the Boy Scouts have is that their boys have fun.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Deep Roots on February 01, 2013, 07:06:28 PM
"There's more to the Boy Scouts than just having fun. The Boy Scouts also see themselves as an organization for helping mold boys into men who are upstanding citizens of our society."

I could be wrong, but given the context of your response above, it seems that you're insinuating that allowing gays in the BSA would somehow conflict with "helping to mold boys into men."

Am I reading you wrong there?  If so, please help me to understand better.
Yes, you are reading me wrong. My comment was directed at those who, as I (mis?)understood them, said that the only agenda the Boy Scouts have is that their boys have fun.
Yes, I was among them; however, the implication was not that that's all they do.

So, then, I am wrong in my assumption that you believe allowing "out" gays into the BSA will diminish or contradict their "helping boys to become men"?  I apologize then, if I misread that.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: JamesRottnek on February 01, 2013, 07:52:12 PM
I miss the days when it was confused teenagers coming out as "gay" (as was the case with several people I went to high school with who are now happily, heterosexually married), and not children's civic organizations being seen as legitimate battlegrounds for "gay rights", whether from in-organization members or not. While I'm sure there is more to the BSA and GSA than just cutting firewood or selling delicious mint chocolate cookies, I would be much less likely to support either if the lessons they now teach include indulgence in sexual role modeling behavior or "self-exploration" or "acceptance" or whatever the buzzword for bringing homosexuality and sexual identity politics into every last nook and cranny of society. Nevermind gays or straights, can't children just be children anymore? If they're gay, they can figure that out later, at an appropriate time and place. If the modern leadership of the BSA/GSA thinks that a tent in the woods is such a time and place, then I certainly don't see how anyone can support them, no matter if the kids come out straight or gay or whatever.

The Boy Scouts actually include a substantial number of teens.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 01, 2013, 07:54:34 PM
I miss the days when it was confused teenagers coming out as "gay" (as was the case with several people I went to high school with who are now happily, heterosexually married), and not children's civic organizations being seen as legitimate battlegrounds for "gay rights", whether from in-organization members or not. While I'm sure there is more to the BSA and GSA than just cutting firewood or selling delicious mint chocolate cookies, I would be much less likely to support either if the lessons they now teach include indulgence in sexual role modeling behavior or "self-exploration" or "acceptance" or whatever the buzzword for bringing homosexuality and sexual identity politics into every last nook and cranny of society. Nevermind gays or straights, can't children just be children anymore? If they're gay, they can figure that out later, at an appropriate time and place. If the modern leadership of the BSA/GSA thinks that a tent in the woods is such a time and place, then I certainly don't see how anyone can support them, no matter if the kids come out straight or gay or whatever.

The Boy Scouts actually include a substantial number of teens.
So teenagers are not children?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: dzheremi on February 01, 2013, 08:06:31 PM
I miss the days when it was confused teenagers coming out as "gay" (as was the case with several people I went to high school with who are now happily, heterosexually married), and not children's civic organizations being seen as legitimate battlegrounds for "gay rights", whether from in-organization members or not. While I'm sure there is more to the BSA and GSA than just cutting firewood or selling delicious mint chocolate cookies, I would be much less likely to support either if the lessons they now teach include indulgence in sexual role modeling behavior or "self-exploration" or "acceptance" or whatever the buzzword for bringing homosexuality and sexual identity politics into every last nook and cranny of society. Nevermind gays or straights, can't children just be children anymore? If they're gay, they can figure that out later, at an appropriate time and place. If the modern leadership of the BSA/GSA thinks that a tent in the woods is such a time and place, then I certainly don't see how anyone can support them, no matter if the kids come out straight or gay or whatever.

The Boy Scouts actually include a substantial number of teens.

Let me rephrase my point: The Boy Scouts is not the appropriate environment for exploring or declaring ones sexuality. It is a children's civic organization.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Deacon Lance on February 01, 2013, 08:55:27 PM
The loss of this battle started when the partnering Churches started to change their teachings.  The BSA says follow the teachings of your Church.  What happens when the Church teachings conflict with BSA policy?  Rather than bite the bullet and disassociate with Churches that oppose policy, the BSA maintained an official policy while allowing a don't ask dont tell policy.  In reality, nothing is changing as the Catholic, Orthodox, and LDS Churches will continue to disallow practicing homosexuals while the Episcopal Church, United Churches of Christ, and ELCA can stop pretending they adhere to policy.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 01, 2013, 08:58:09 PM
Quote from: Kerdy
Kids traditionally join the Scouts to have fun, not to have a political agenda forced on them. 

Like yours?


My what?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 01, 2013, 09:14:11 PM


Why don't you just admit it: you hate gay people and would be perfectly pleased if they all died.
A little dramatic and a tad over the top with this post, even for you.

The good news is this is a gleaming example of that tolerance we always hear about in practice for all to see.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Asteriktos on February 01, 2013, 09:23:02 PM
My favorite part of being in the scouts was that race car derby thing. Even though my cars were always crappy.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: JamesRottnek on February 01, 2013, 09:28:10 PM


Why don't you just admit it: you hate gay people and would be perfectly pleased if they all died.
A little dramatic and a tad over the top with this post, even for you.

The good news is this is a gleaming example of that tolerance we always hear about in practice for all to see.

If you read my other posts on this forum, you'll know I'm not a fan of tolerance.

Also, my request that you simply be honest - with yourself and others - about your feelings should in no way be taken as any indication of my feelings toward you.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: orthonorm on February 01, 2013, 11:12:49 PM
I miss the days when it was confused teenagers coming out as "gay" (as was the case with several people I went to high school with who are now happily, heterosexually married), and not children's civic organizations being seen as legitimate battlegrounds for "gay rights", whether from in-organization members or not.

^----------This is nostalgia folks.

Sadly, nevertheless.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: orthonorm on February 01, 2013, 11:19:57 PM
I miss the days when it was confused teenagers coming out as "gay" (as was the case with several people I went to high school with who are now happily, heterosexually married), and not children's civic organizations being seen as legitimate battlegrounds for "gay rights", whether from in-organization members or not. While I'm sure there is more to the BSA and GSA than just cutting firewood or selling delicious mint chocolate cookies, I would be much less likely to support either if the lessons they now teach include indulgence in sexual role modeling behavior or "self-exploration" or "acceptance" or whatever the buzzword for bringing homosexuality and sexual identity politics into every last nook and cranny of society. Nevermind gays or straights, can't children just be children anymore? If they're gay, they can figure that out later, at an appropriate time and place. If the modern leadership of the BSA/GSA thinks that a tent in the woods is such a time and place, then I certainly don't see how anyone can support them, no matter if the kids come out straight or gay or whatever.

The Boy Scouts actually include a substantial number of teens.

Let me rephrase my point: The Boy Scouts is not the appropriate environment for exploring or declaring ones sexuality. It is a children's civic organization.

Actually it is a pretty "gay" thing to do. Every kid I knew who was in the "scouts" got picked on mercilessly. Not as bad as being in band, but close.

And the "scouts" is all about sexuality. Again, this is nothing but Puritanism.

Kids are sexual. How they engage the world is sexual. Any place is a place for "declaring" one's sexuality. Just when the language surrounds "cute" "normal" sexualized talk it is OK. It is when it departs from the typical nonsense does it offend those with rarified sexual hang-ups.

If Johnny-wonny has a cutesy-wutesy girlfriend: Awwww . . . .

A boyfriend? 

Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Shiny on February 01, 2013, 11:29:43 PM
(a) demand that no one criticize their immoral and sinful life style,
Which is completely based on presuppositions, which not all of us hold equal.


Quote
(b) demand that society throw away the meaning of marriage between a man and a woman in the name of equality,
Nobody is going to throw away the "meaning" (if such even exists anymore) of marriage between a man and a women. That is completely reactionary.

You have your "meaning" in the Church. Others can have theirs in a civil union.

Conservatives like yourself all want freedom to do as they want, but when it is contrary to their ideology, well its **** you, you aren't getting it.

Quote
(c) demand that private individuals and organizations accept their demand that homosexual lifestyle is normal.

What exactly is a lifestyle and why do you define it as such for the homosexual? That is their being.

And it has everything to do with accepting them for what they are, not treating them as if they are subhuman.

Quote
Those who believe that the homosexual lifestyle is wrong have agreed to the decriminalization of homosexual conduct. Now, they are faced with a demand that they approve of homosexual conduct. That's cheeky, don't you think?

Because criminalizing homosexual "conduct" is the proper way to cure them of their homosexuality.

You know we could just allow it and mind our own business, love them as our neighbors and share the Gospel of Christ.

Sure you want to keep guns legal, which as far as I know, create more crimes than two dudes loving each other.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: augustin717 on February 01, 2013, 11:30:19 PM
The loss of this battle started when the partnering Churches started to change their teachings.  The BSA says follow the teachings of your Church.  What happens when the Church teachings conflict with BSA policy?  Rather than bite the bullet and disassociate with Churches that oppose policy, the BSA maintained an official policy while allowing a don't ask dont tell policy.  In reality, nothing is changing as the Catholic, Orthodox, and LDS Churches will continue to disallow practicing homosexuals while the Episcopal Church, United Churches of Christ, and ELCA can stop pretending they adhere to policy.
I think it all started with the Filioque. It all went downhill from there.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: dzheremi on February 01, 2013, 11:54:47 PM
Actually it is a pretty "gay" thing to do. Every kid I knew who was in the "scouts" got picked on mercilessly. Not as bad as being in band, but close.

Yes, yes...words are fun, and you are very clever boy.

Quote
And the "scouts" is all about sexuality. Again, this is nothing but Puritanism.

Where is the sexual component of the Boy Scout Creed, reproduced below:

Quote from: Boy Scout Creed
To be trustworthy in all things.  Loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous and kind.  To learn obedience and practise cheerfulness and Thrift.  To be brave, clean and reverent.  Above all to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.  To “Be Prepared” at all times to do my duty to God and my country, and to do a Good Turn to someone every Day.

Quote
Kids are sexual. How they engage the world is sexual.

I never said they weren't.

Quote
Any place is a place for "declaring" one's sexuality.


What I'm hearing is that Thanksgiving dinner was a wild event in the Orthonorm household. Good for you. For us "puritanical" folks, it is perhaps not an outrageous suggestion that sexual identity issues be addressed at appropriate times and appropriate places, and that a children's civic organization is not an appropriate place to do that.

Quote
Just when the language surrounds "cute" "normal" sexualized talk it is OK. It is when it departs from the typical nonsense does it offend those with rarified sexual hang-ups.

If Johnny-wonny has a cutesy-wutesy girlfriend: Awwww . . . .

A boyfriend? 


"typical nonsense" like what exactly?  ??? So now there's a problem with heterosexuality being recognized as normative in a society in which it is normative, in addition to the idea that sexuality should not take center stage in the operation or teaching of a children's civic organization.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: orthonorm on February 02, 2013, 12:12:46 AM
Jeremy your posts are naive.

If you think sexuality is something one states in creeds and mottos, then well, there is no point going on here.

The BOY Scouts.

BOY.
BOY.

That is just the beginning of the sexualization of that group. Why segregate the girls and boys in the first? That is done explicitly out of sexual reasons. That is not a criticism. Everything is sexualized. It HAS to be. We are SEXUAL from birth and before. Not just in terms of some arrangement of chromosomes, but how we interact with the world.

To further explore the weird and odd fetishism of "scouting" would be a WASTE of time here.

Note, you didn't respond to my "cute" point.

Your ridiculous Thanksgiving comment.

If Bobby talks about his crush on a girl. It is cute. What if Bobby has a crush on a boy?

Coming out is not an act homosexuals do because they are gay. Do heterosexuals come out? No. They have a pretty standard and socialized narrative about how to engage in the larger body politic of family and society about their sexual lives.

Gay folks DON'T have that. Thus once they come of age so to speak, if they want to live a some what sane life, it seems they might want to be able to express what straight people can and do from moment one of conception. Yes. Conception. That child is already sexualized. People project the dreams and fantasies of that person's sex life forward. Proms, Weddings, Grandchildren, etc.

Sexual "identity" is always being addressed by straight folks. Always. Nearly every moment.

Straight people are constantly showing their sexuality. Constantly. We just are so used to it as for it to become transparent.

This is thinking 101. Come on. Aren't past these obviouslys yet?

To the odd sexualization of scouting, well if it ain't clear if not precise, I dunno what to say.

But can we please stop acting like homosexual are imposing upon us. If they are it is a necessary structure as long as being homosexual is regarded as being alien, foreign, bad, non-normative.

Being gay is "normative". (Thanks for you using part of my name.)

People are gay. It is normal. It's been going on for a long time.

Whether you think it is a sinful or whatever is something else.

For every gay or non-awesomely-straight person like myself, I am sorry for the tone of the board lately regarding your person. It is nothing other than revolting.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 02, 2013, 12:57:21 AM
It's amazing...I saw this in Protestantism, but I never thought I would see it in Orthodoxy.  A complete rejection of 2000 years of Christian teaching, ignoring everything God has taught us because we want it to be a different way.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 02, 2013, 12:58:29 AM


Why don't you just admit it: you hate gay people and would be perfectly pleased if they all died.
A little dramatic and a tad over the top with this post, even for you.

The good news is this is a gleaming example of that tolerance we always hear about in practice for all to see.

If you read my other posts on this forum, you'll know I'm not a fan of tolerance.

Also, my request that you simply be honest - with yourself and others - about your feelings should in no way be taken as any indication of my feelings toward you.
So says the mind reader.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: LBK on February 02, 2013, 01:07:35 AM
It's amazing...I saw this in Protestantism, but I never thought I would see it in Orthodoxy.  A complete rejection of 2000 years of Christian teaching, ignoring everything God has taught us because we want it to be a different way.

Yup. You beat me to it, Kerdy. But if a grumpy old fart like me who's only been Orthodox for about 50 years said what you just did, I give you one guess what the reactions of some here would be.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: augustin717 on February 02, 2013, 01:10:56 AM
It's amazing...I saw this in Protestantism, but I never thought I would see it in Orthodoxy.  A complete rejection of 2000 years of Christian teaching, ignoring everything God has taught us because we want it to be a different way.
Gasp... orthodox people dare express personal opinions. hope you don't want orthodox parishes run like kingdom halls, although it does happen here and there.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 02, 2013, 01:19:47 AM
It's amazing...I saw this in Protestantism, but I never thought I would see it in Orthodoxy.  A complete rejection of 2000 years of Christian teaching, ignoring everything God has taught us because we want it to be a different way.
Gasp... orthodox people dare express personal opinions. hope you don't want orthodox parishes run like kingdom halls, although it does happen here and there.
Gasp...Orthodox people DARE express personal un-Orthodox opinions in a brazen manner against the teachings of Christianity.  Yep, that's what I call playing with fire.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 02, 2013, 01:23:08 AM
It's amazing...I saw this in Protestantism, but I never thought I would see it in Orthodoxy.  A complete rejection of 2000 years of Christian teaching, ignoring everything God has taught us because we want it to be a different way.

Yup. You beat me to it, Kerdy. But if a grumpy old fart like me who's only been Orthodox for about 50 years said what you just did, I give you one guess what the reactions of some here would be.
I imagine the same reaction I receive.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: augustin717 on February 02, 2013, 01:34:10 AM
Ain't it so sweet to feel persecute for righteousness sake?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 02, 2013, 01:36:59 AM
My favorite part of being in the scouts was that race car derby thing. Even though my cars were always crappy.
I actually won my troop's space derby one year. ;D Kinda like pine cars, except these were little pine rocket ships propelled down a zip line by rubber-band-powered propeller blades.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: LBK on February 02, 2013, 01:38:12 AM
Ain't it so sweet to feel persecute for righteousness sake?

I'm immune to flattery. Age does that to you.  8)
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Hiwot on February 02, 2013, 01:45:05 AM
Ain't it so sweet to feel persecute for righteousness sake?
Lord have mercy! Augustin you go at it with a scalpel don't you? or is it a laser? LOL!
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: dzheremi on February 02, 2013, 01:46:13 AM
Jeremy your posts are naive.

You're free to stop reading or responding to them if they bother you so much. Really, I wouldn't mind.

Quote
If you think sexuality is something one states in creeds and mottos, then well, there is no point going on here.

I was responding to your idea that "the Scouts is all about sexuality". There's no sexuality in the Scouts Creed, so I think you're reading something into the organization's goals that isn't meant to be there. But I agree that there is no point in conversing with you.  

Quote
The BOY Scouts.

BOY.
BOY.

(http://media.mercola.com/assets/images/multivitamins-childrens/healthy-boy.jpg)

Good job! It is the Boy Scouts! You're good at this.

Quote
That is just the beginning of the sexualization of that group. Why segregate the girls and boys in the first?


I'm assuming they probably teach boys and girls different skills, as boys and girls are different from one another in some ways.

Quote
Note, you didn't respond to my "cute" point.

You didn't say anything worth responding to.

Quote
If Bobby talks about his crush on a girl. It is cute. What if Bobby has a crush on a boy?

What if? I don't care. That doesn't make Bobby having a crush on a girl instead of a boy "nonsense".

Quote
Coming out is not an act homosexuals do because they are gay. Do heterosexuals come out? No. They have a pretty standard and socialized narrative about how to engage in the larger body politic of family and society about their sexual lives.

Yep. That's what happens when you're part of the 90%+ of the society that is not gay. That's the majority/minority dynamic at work. It's not specific to gay people. My brother's a vegetarian and often has to explain to people why he doesn't eat meat. I'm an Orthodox Christian and I have to explain to people why I'm that and not Protestant or Catholic (and further explain in certain religiously-literate environments why I'm Oriental Orthodox, not Eastern Orthodox). These are all a part of being a minority, but they don't make being a heterosexual, meat-eating carnivore anything other than normative in American society. That's why we have to explain things about ourselves when they're not the usual. Some have more to explain than others, and some things are more socially-accepted than other things.

Quote
Sexual "identity" is always being addressed by straight folks. Always. Nearly every moment.

Nope. When I go out to eat, I'm not expressing my sexuality. When I pray, I'm not expressing my sexuality. Not everything in life has to do with who I (or whoever) might be sexually attracted to. Gay people do that stuff, too, without having it be about how they're gay. I would wager, living in a relatively liberal city as I do, that I probably run into many more gay people in the average day than I could identify as being gay. Most people, gay or straight, are just people going about their daily lives. Several of the people I have known who have "come out" as gay were not obvious (though there were several others who were), and several more who everyone in my social circle had assumed were gay turned out not to be. Go figure.

Quote
This is thinking 101. Come on. Aren't past these obviouslys yet?

Who is past the what in where now?  ???

Quote
Being gay is "normative". (Thanks for you using part of my name.)

No it isn't. Something is normative if it is establishing or deriving from the/a standard. Since gay people make up a very small percentage of any given society, by definition being gay is not normative. This isn't about gay people being "freaks" or anything like that, just a statistical observation that most people are not gay, and if we are to take the majority of a given society as establishing what is normative in that society (in the sense of "most people in location X have/don't have characteristic Y"), then being gay can't possibly be normative (just like most people in the world, statistically, aren't African-American, aren't left-handed, aren't Orthodox Christian, etc).

Quote
People are gay. It is normal. It's been going on for a long time.

The fact that people are gay doesn't make being gay normative. Colorblind amputee Eskimos exist, too (probably), but there is no way that they can be described as normative in a statistical sense.

Quote
Whether you think it is a sinful or whatever is something else.

Irrelevant.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: William on February 02, 2013, 01:51:08 AM
I don't think orthonorm and augustin are as similar as the latter would like to believe.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 02, 2013, 01:54:02 AM
(a) demand that no one criticize their immoral and sinful life style,
Which is completely based on presuppositions, which not all of us hold equal.
You call yourself Orthodox, yet you don't follow the moral teachings of the Church, teachings that state very clearly that homosexual relations are immoral and sinful? That isn't merely Carl's opinion he's representing here.

Quote
(b) demand that society throw away the meaning of marriage between a man and a woman in the name of equality,
Nobody is going to throw away the "meaning" (if such even exists anymore) of marriage between a man and a women. That is completely reactionary.
No, by your own admission, which you just stated in this quote, the meaning of marriage has already been thrown away in the USA.

You have your "meaning" in the Church. Others can have theirs in a civil union.

Conservatives like yourself all want freedom to do as they want, but when it is contrary to their ideology, well its **** you, you aren't getting it.
Let's leave politics out of this discussion, especially since we're still on the Public Forum.

Quote
(c) demand that private individuals and organizations accept their demand that homosexual lifestyle is normal.

What exactly is a lifestyle and why do you define it as such for the homosexual? That is their being.

And it has everything to do with accepting them for what they are, not treating them as if they are subhuman.
Since when have the Boy Scouts been about acceptance of immorality? The Boy Scouts have a moral code, and if you violate that code, you get expelled from the Boy Scouts. Is that not their right to do as a private organization?

Quote
Those who believe that the homosexual lifestyle is wrong have agreed to the decriminalization of homosexual conduct. Now, they are faced with a demand that they approve of homosexual conduct. That's cheeky, don't you think?

Because criminalizing homosexual "conduct" is the proper way to cure them of their homosexuality.

You know we could just allow it and mind our own business, love them as our neighbors and share the Gospel of Christ.
You do realize that Carl has not advocated the criminalization of homosexual relations; in fact, he has stated the exact opposite, that homosexual relations should remain legal even if we do believe them immoral.

Sure you want to keep guns legal, which as far as I know, create more crimes than two dudes loving each other.
Again, please leave politics out of this discussion.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Shiny on February 02, 2013, 01:57:22 AM
Well after tonight.

Umm.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 02, 2013, 02:38:18 AM
Ain't it so sweet to feel persecute for righteousness sake?
If I'm being persecuted as a result of my desire to seek truth rather than convenience, so be it.  Jesus said it would happen and He said who would be doing the persecution.  I just ask you no longer wear a mask to hide behind.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 02, 2013, 02:39:23 AM
Ain't it so sweet to feel persecute for righteousness sake?
Lord have mercy! Augustin you go at it with a scalpel don't you? or is it a laser? LOL!
Or a spoon.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Hiwot on February 02, 2013, 03:11:14 AM
Ain't it so sweet to feel persecute for righteousness sake?
Lord have mercy! Augustin you go at it with a scalpel don't you? or is it a laser? LOL!
Or a spoon.

 if you say so  :-X :)
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 02, 2013, 04:43:01 AM
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: dzheremi on February 02, 2013, 05:05:06 AM
Yeah..erm...or this is the internet, and those who may have in the past been literal iconoclasts are now taking "radical" (worldly) stances in favor of destroying the true faith by other means, insinuating that there should be some wiggle room regarding issues that are settled. Just because the post-modern world has remade heretics into freedom fighters doesn't mean that every church or every person is modernizing in this way. Just look at all the people here who aren't agreeing with Orthonorm, Augstin, Achronos, etc.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: orthonorm on February 02, 2013, 05:29:26 AM
Yeah..erm...or this is the internet, and those who may have in the past been literal iconoclasts are now taking "radical" (worldly) stances in favor of destroying the true faith by other means, insinuating that there should be some wiggle room regarding issues that are settled. Just because the post-modern world has remade heretics into freedom fighters doesn't mean that every church or every person is modernizing in this way. Just look at all the people here who aren't agreeing with Orthonorm, Augstin, Achronos, etc.

Yes, take a look at them. I am happy.

And you should work on your reading comprehension.

Quote exactly what I have said "flies in the face of Church Tradition".

Please go ahead.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Shiny on February 02, 2013, 05:57:19 AM
You call yourself Orthodox, yet you don't follow the moral teachings of the Church, teachings that state very clearly that homosexual relations are immoral and sinful? That isn't merely Carl's opinion he's representing here.
There exists a separation of Church and State.

And BTW I never brought up homosexual relations. Carl said "lifestyle" which tells us nothing at all.

Quote
No, by your own admission, which you just stated in this quote, the meaning of marriage has already been thrown away in the USA.
Which has nothing to do with gays.

Quote
Let's leave politics out of this discussion, especially since we're still on the Public Forum.
Everything is shaped by politics.

Quote
Since when have the Boy Scouts been about acceptance of immorality? The Boy Scouts have a moral code, and if you violate that code, you get expelled from the Boy Scouts. Is that not their right to do as a private organization?
What have homosexual boys done? Until they have done anything immoral, then they should not be expelled from being in the Boy Scouts.

What you are advocating is discrimination.

Anyway it can be argued that the Boy Scouts itself is rather gay.

Quote
You do realize that Carl has not advocated the criminalization of homosexual relations; in fact, he has stated the exact opposite, that homosexual relations should remain legal even if we do believe them immoral.
And yet until those gay boys have sex in a tent, you should not deny them a membership to the Boy Scouts.

Quote
Again, please leave politics out of this discussion.
Yet discussing about keeping homosexual relations legal isn't politics why?

And the comparison absolutely has merit to the discussion. I would say it is analogous.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Shiny on February 02, 2013, 06:01:21 AM
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: LBK on February 02, 2013, 06:07:05 AM
Achronos, what's been eating you lately?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: dzheremi on February 02, 2013, 06:14:49 AM

And you should work on your reading comprehension.

Quote exactly what I have said "flies in the face of Church Tradition".

Am I not supposed to be noticing that you have put in quotes "flies in the face of Church Tradition" in response to a post that did not contain that sentence fragment? And I'm the one who needs to work on my reading comprehension, apparently...  :D

Quote
Please go ahead.

I'd rather not continue this conversation.

Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Hiwot on February 02, 2013, 06:15:51 AM
Kerdy, I am sorry you are so distressed, may the Lord grant you peace.

I have not read this thread in detail but the general theme is the same as other similar threads I believe. so at the risk of dragging myself into unnecessary arguments that go nowhere, I will speak towards the general theme, regarding what you said last.

I once greeted a deacon of the Parish church of 'The Intercessor of Mercy/ Se'alite Miheret/' when he came to a friend's house saying ' so how is the Intercessor of Mercy?' referring to the parish.. and he answered in a clever way I will never forget, "She remains honored and glorified!' referring to the Most Holy Theotokos.

The Apostolic Church remains Apostolic. it is us who must learn how to be the Children of our Father in heaven who makes his sun rise upon the good and the bad, and his rain upon the just and the unjust. we must meditate on where the wisdom is in that, when the Father's heart aches for the prodigal son even more than ours.

limited as we are in our understanding and wisdom regarding some situations as it relates to how the Church handles them,there is a temptation to attempt do what oza has done in one manner or anther..6 And when they came to the floor of Nachon, Oza put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it: because the oxen kicked and made it lean aside. 7 And the indignation of the Lord was enkindled against Oza, and he struck him for his rashness: and he died there before the ark of God. 8 And David was grieved because the Lord had struck Oza, and the name of that place was called: The striking of Oza, to this day.2 Samuel 6:6-8

 none the less, we must keep in mind that the Truth is Crucified with Love for the Life of the World. we must see the Messiah kneeling between the keepers of the Law he gave them and the woman who was found breaking it and meditate where  the justice is in there or the wisdom.

the insinuation that if the church does not treat certain individuals a certain way preferred by us, than what has already existed in how she treats the sick that come to her, then it means the church is sinking or changing is very presumptuous. such fear  although based on presumption still can only lead to the irrationality and hate and creation of certain clicks of the self declared uber healthy among the filthy sick. may the Lord deliver us from it.


Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Αριστοκλής on February 02, 2013, 08:32:47 AM
Achronos, what's been eating you lately?

He's off post moderation; must of gotten a bit backed up.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Deep Roots on February 02, 2013, 10:30:15 AM
I grow weary of the fight.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_HoDij8Z2tHY/THEtOnsAeoI/AAAAAAAAEjk/_7fFc5BLmLg/s320/Tiny+Violin.jpg)
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Peter J on February 02, 2013, 10:32:58 AM
I actually agree with you regarding what you have said in your assessment of the current situation with the Boy Scouts. I have fond memories of having been a Boy Scout back in the 1980's, before all this PC nonsense got pushed on the BSA. I, too, am irritated by all these PC "advocates" who think it their job to push their social agenda upon the Boy Scouts, and I am also troubled by what appears to be the first stages of the BSA's capitulation to their demands. The Boy Scouts of America is a private organization with the authority to set their own standards of membership based on their vision of what they want to be. If they don't want to admit openly gay boys and men into their organization, then they have every right to discriminate in this way. I also agree with the mission of the Boy Scouts as it is encoded into the Boy Scout Law and Boy Scout Oath, which includes statements that a Scout will strive to be morally straight and that a scout is reverent. The Boy Scouts see these mandates as not making any place for openly practicing homosexuals in their organization, and I agree with them. I, for one, would not recognize the Boy Scouts as the scouting organization I once knew if they were to kowtow to the gay lobby and lift their ban on openly gay boys and men. I hope and pray that they will continue their fight.

From the posts on this thread, I would guess that those 2 things are one and the same in many people's eyes: if the Boy Scouts lift their ban on openly gay boys and men, then we can automatically conclude that it's kowtowing to the gay lobby.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Peter J on February 02, 2013, 10:49:41 AM
For every gay or non-awesomely-straight person like myself, I am sorry for the tone of the board lately regarding your person. It is nothing other than revolting.

It's amazing...I saw this in Protestantism, but I never thought I would see it in Orthodoxy.  A complete rejection of 2000 years of Christian teaching, ignoring everything God has taught us because we want it to be a different way.

I think each of you make a legitimate complaint there. Which underscores something I've been thinking about while reading this thread ...

You may know/recall that I have, on numerous occasions, admitted that there are areas in which we (Catholics) could learn from you (Orthodox). But it strikes me that you could really learn from us about condemning homosexual acts without condemning people for homosexual orientation.

Just saying.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Asteriktos on February 02, 2013, 10:55:53 AM
You may know/recall that I have, on numerous occasions, admitted that there are areas in which we (Catholics) could learn from you (Orthodox). But it strikes me that you could really learn from us about condemning homosexual acts without condemning people for homosexual orientation.

That's sort of interesting, because I've always thought the opposite: that Orthodoxy had a more refined and subtle approach and that Catholics were more heavy handed in the matter. I'm probably wrong as I don't know a ton about the Catholic position, just thought I'd say... :)
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: FatherGiryus on February 02, 2013, 11:00:43 AM
I think there is an easier way to handle this.  The Boy Scouts can change the wording of their ban:  because boys are vulnerable to predatory sexual activity, no one may be a member if he is sexually attracted to children or males in general.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: William on February 02, 2013, 11:03:13 AM
For every gay or non-awesomely-straight person like myself, I am sorry for the tone of the board lately regarding your person. It is nothing other than revolting.

It's amazing...I saw this in Protestantism, but I never thought I would see it in Orthodoxy.  A complete rejection of 2000 years of Christian teaching, ignoring everything God has taught us because we want it to be a different way.

I think each of you make a legitimate complaint there. Which underscores something I've been thinking about while reading this thread ...

You may know/recall that I have, on numerous occasions, admitted that there are areas in which we (Catholics) could learn from you (Orthodox). But it strikes me that you could really learn from us about condemning homosexual acts without condemning people for homosexual orientation.

Just saying.

Is that a joke?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: FatherGiryus on February 02, 2013, 11:08:13 AM
I'm curious: are we condemning males for being heterosexual when we ban then from the women's locker room?


You may know/recall that I have, on numerous occasions, admitted that there are areas in which we (Catholics) could learn from you (Orthodox). But it strikes me that you could really learn from us about condemning homosexual acts without condemning people for homosexual orientation.

Just saying.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Peter J on February 02, 2013, 11:34:01 AM
For every gay or non-awesomely-straight person like myself, I am sorry for the tone of the board lately regarding your person. It is nothing other than revolting.

It's amazing...I saw this in Protestantism, but I never thought I would see it in Orthodoxy.  A complete rejection of 2000 years of Christian teaching, ignoring everything God has taught us because we want it to be a different way.

I think each of you make a legitimate complaint there. Which underscores something I've been thinking about while reading this thread ...

You may know/recall that I have, on numerous occasions, admitted that there are areas in which we (Catholics) could learn from you (Orthodox). But it strikes me that you could really learn from us about condemning homosexual acts without condemning people for homosexual orientation.

Just saying.

Is that a joke?

Hell no.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Asteriktos on February 02, 2013, 11:42:56 AM
We start 17 threads on homosexuality every week and it still isn't clear that Orthodoxy "condemns homosexual acts without condemning people for homosexual orientation"?  ???  We're doing something wrong.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: William on February 02, 2013, 11:45:59 AM
For every gay or non-awesomely-straight person like myself, I am sorry for the tone of the board lately regarding your person. It is nothing other than revolting.

It's amazing...I saw this in Protestantism, but I never thought I would see it in Orthodoxy.  A complete rejection of 2000 years of Christian teaching, ignoring everything God has taught us because we want it to be a different way.

I think each of you make a legitimate complaint there. Which underscores something I've been thinking about while reading this thread ...

You may know/recall that I have, on numerous occasions, admitted that there are areas in which we (Catholics) could learn from you (Orthodox). But it strikes me that you could really learn from us about condemning homosexual acts without condemning people for homosexual orientation.

Just saying.

Is that a joke?

Hell no.

Well it was funny regardless.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Peter J on February 02, 2013, 11:53:27 AM
This post is so messed up it's almost funny:

I'm curious: are we condemning males for being heterosexual when we ban then from the women's locker room?


You may know/recall that I have, on numerous occasions, admitted that there are areas in which we (Catholics) could learn from you (Orthodox). But it strikes me that you could really learn from us about condemning homosexual acts without condemning people for homosexual orientation.

Just saying.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: William on February 02, 2013, 11:57:27 AM
How?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: augustin717 on February 02, 2013, 12:01:26 PM
I don't think orthonorm and augustin are as similar as the latter would like to believe.
Have you been smoking something ? What would I have you believe specifically?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: orthonorm on February 02, 2013, 12:30:21 PM

And you should work on your reading comprehension.

Quote exactly what I have said "flies in the face of Church Tradition".

Am I not supposed to be noticing that you have put in quotes "flies in the face of Church Tradition" in response to a post that did not contain that sentence fragment? And I'm the one who needs to work on my reading comprehension, apparently...  :D

Quote
Please go ahead.

I'd rather not continue this conversation.



"Crickets". If you people can put words into my fingers, I can do the same.

Stop
    Trying
            To
              Be
                 The
                     Arbiter
                              Of
                                What
                                       The
                                           Church
                                                    Thinks
                                                            And
                                                                Piling
                                                                      On
                                                                         With
                                                                              Those
                                                                                     Who
                                                                                          Do
                                                                                            Without
                                                                                                      Merit.

Look at the company you are consistently in and the things that they have said openly as of late. Advocating hitting homosexual kids for vaguely worded human interactions.

And you are comparing being gay to being vegetarian?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 02, 2013, 12:55:54 PM
You call yourself Orthodox, yet you don't follow the moral teachings of the Church, teachings that state very clearly that homosexual relations are immoral and sinful? That isn't merely Carl's opinion he's representing here.
There exists a separation of Church and State.

And BTW I never brought up homosexual relations. Carl said "lifestyle" which tells us nothing at all.

Quote
No, by your own admission, which you just stated in this quote, the meaning of marriage has already been thrown away in the USA.
Which has nothing to do with gays.

Quote
Let's leave politics out of this discussion, especially since we're still on the Public Forum.
Everything is shaped by politics.
And yet we're not permitted to discuss it here.

Quote
Since when have the Boy Scouts been about acceptance of immorality? The Boy Scouts have a moral code, and if you violate that code, you get expelled from the Boy Scouts. Is that not their right to do as a private organization?
What have homosexual boys done? Until they have done anything immoral, then they should not be expelled from being in the Boy Scouts.
When have I said otherwise?

What you are advocating is discrimination.
Yes, I know that. The Marine Corps discriminates, too. I'll bet even you discriminate, choosing to associate with some people and not with others. Does that make you evil? The question is: on what standards do we discriminate?

Anyway it can be argued that the Boy Scouts itself is rather gay.
I suppose that's your prerogative to say so. Not every boy I grew up with joined the Scouts. Most of them didn't.

Quote
You do realize that Carl has not advocated the criminalization of homosexual relations; in fact, he has stated the exact opposite, that homosexual relations should remain legal even if we do believe them immoral.
And yet until those gay boys have sex in a tent, you should not deny them a membership to the Boy Scouts.
Fixed that for you. Tell you what: Why don't you let the Boy Scouts set and enforce their own standards? If the Boy Scouts want to expel someone for having gay sex--doesn't matter if it's during a Scout function or not--and boasting about it, then let the Boy Scouts do that.

Quote
Again, please leave politics out of this discussion.
Yet discussing about keeping homosexual relations legal isn't politics why?

And the comparison absolutely has merit to the discussion. I would say it is analogous.
Then start a separate thread on the Politics board to make the legalization of homosexual marriage the focus of your discussion.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Peter J on February 02, 2013, 01:06:37 PM
If you read my other posts on this forum, you'll know I'm not a fan of tolerance.

Does anyone else find it odd that being a "fan of tolerance" is, on this forum, akin to an accusation of heresy?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: orthonorm on February 02, 2013, 01:14:25 PM
If you read my other posts on this forum, you'll know I'm not a fan of tolerance.

Does anyone else find it odd that being a "fan of tolerance" is, on this forum, akin to an accusation of heresy?

I won't speak for JamesRottnek, but the Gospel doesn't call for tolerance (that is a late liberal Capitalist value), it calls for love.

To use the example of someone I am compared to too often (MLK is the example used by whom I am accused of sounding like, I am not often compared to MLK for better and worse):

Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream wasn't a world one day in which the white man would tolerate the negro. It was a dream of love and truly living together amid all the messes such love and living creates, which often are by their nature nearly intolerable.

However, your point is taken.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Peter J on February 02, 2013, 02:21:27 PM
You may know/recall that I have, on numerous occasions, admitted that there are areas in which we (Catholics) could learn from you (Orthodox). But it strikes me that you could really learn from us about condemning homosexual acts without condemning people for homosexual orientation.

That's sort of interesting, because I've always thought the opposite: that Orthodoxy had a more refined and subtle approach and that Catholics were more heavy handed in the matter. I'm probably wrong as I don't know a ton about the Catholic position, just thought I'd say... :)

There are, I can't deny, some Catholics who are quite intolerant (the SSPX comes to mind).

I remember a conversation I overheard, several months ago, between 2 Catholics talking about a then-recent anti-bullying ad campaign. The point of the conversation was how awful it was that some of the ads were directed against the bullying of "gays".
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: orthonorm on February 02, 2013, 02:23:40 PM
You may know/recall that I have, on numerous occasions, admitted that there are areas in which we (Catholics) could learn from you (Orthodox). But it strikes me that you could really learn from us about condemning homosexual acts without condemning people for homosexual orientation.

That's sort of interesting, because I've always thought the opposite: that Orthodoxy had a more refined and subtle approach and that Catholics were more heavy handed in the matter. I'm probably wrong as I don't know a ton about the Catholic position, just thought I'd say... :)

There are, I can't deny, some Catholics who are quite intolerant (the SSPX comes to mind).

I remember a conversation I overheard, several months ago, between 2 Catholics talking about a then-recent anti-bullying ad campaign. The point of the conversation was how awful it was that some of the ads were directed against the bullying of "gays".

To be fair to the judgements of *, he has probably only lived where RCs were stamped by the radical puritanism of this country.

Some of the best places (sane) I've been have been traditionally RC countries.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: dzheremi on February 02, 2013, 02:37:31 PM
You may know/recall that I have, on numerous occasions, admitted that there are areas in which we (Catholics) could learn from you (Orthodox). But it strikes me that you could really learn from us about condemning homosexual acts without condemning people for homosexual orientation.

That's sort of interesting, because I've always thought the opposite: that Orthodoxy had a more refined and subtle approach and that Catholics were more heavy handed in the matter. I'm probably wrong as I don't know a ton about the Catholic position, just thought I'd say... :)

There are, I can't deny, some Catholics who are quite intolerant (the SSPX comes to mind).

I remember a conversation I overheard, several months ago, between 2 Catholics talking about a then-recent anti-bullying ad campaign. The point of the conversation was how awful it was that some of the ads were directed against the bullying of "gays".

That's one I'll never understand. It's kind of an issue again, I guess, back home in N. California, since a few players from the 49ers who appeared in the "It Gets Better" anti-bullying ad have since come out and said that they didn't know it was directed against bullying of homosexuals, and if they had they wouldn't have done it (or some such; I've only read the news reports...never even seen the ads). I really have to wonder why. While I think the idea that gays should be treated as a "protected class" in the political/legislative sense is not right, if there is statistical evidence that they are more adversely affected by bullying in schools than other populations, I don't see why they shouldn't also be reached with the message that high school isn't the end of the freaking world. I can think of many other people who could've used such ad campaigns directed toward them before they ruined their lives and/or the lives of others over some ultimately petty and stupid high school BS (those "Trenchcoat Mafia" kids whose names escape me come to mind).
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Peter J on February 02, 2013, 03:05:23 PM
Good post, dzheremi.

And I should add for the record that I haven't seen the ads either; so it's possible that they snuck in something encouraging everyone to worship flies or something. All I know is that the 2 Catholics I mentioned had a real problem with the fact that the ads were directed against the bullying of gay students. (Or at least one of them did; I think the other may have felt less strongly about it.)
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Deep Roots on February 02, 2013, 03:30:58 PM
If only we could have a kind of reeducation camp or something...for gays.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: biro on February 02, 2013, 03:41:24 PM
If only we could have a kind of reeducation camp or something...for gays.

I hope this is a joke.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: That person on February 02, 2013, 05:24:50 PM
All pubescent kids are going to make sexual advances at each other sooner or later--homosexual or heterosexual...
Nobody ever made a sexual advance on me when I was growing up, nor did I ever make a sexual advance on someone else. I therefore don't understand why you have such a low opinion of teenagers.
Me neither. I'm pretty sure we're just ugly though.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 02, 2013, 05:30:34 PM
All pubescent kids are going to make sexual advances at each other sooner or later--homosexual or heterosexual...
Nobody ever made a sexual advance on me when I was growing up, nor did I ever make a sexual advance on someone else. I therefore don't understand why you have such a low opinion of teenagers.
Me neither. I'm pretty sure we're just ugly though.
I'm not ugly. I'm just a nerd. ;D
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Charles Martel on February 02, 2013, 05:34:56 PM
If only we could have a kind of reeducation camp or something...for gays.

I hope this is a joke.
Or what?

Are you being intolerant?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: That person on February 02, 2013, 05:39:30 PM
Well I'm two for two there Peter.

I was never in scouts myself. Probably a majority of the guys I've known through junior high and high school have been though. From the anecdotes I've heard of what goes down at their meetings, it seems a lot of them are pretty openly heterosexual, talking about girls and their relationships with them and what not. If that does indeed come up, then preventing open homosexuality seems dumb.

Also, if the organization does indeed build character,  I shudder to think what this motley crew of stoners and slackers and perverts would be like without it.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Charles Martel on February 02, 2013, 05:41:08 PM
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same ferocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: JamesRottnek on February 02, 2013, 05:44:03 PM
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 02, 2013, 05:46:33 PM
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.
Why? You can't stand competition at your own game?

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
So you will allow yourself to be sanctimonious, but you won't allow Kerdy to do the same?

Oh, that's right, you have a monopoly on sanctimonious BS. ::)
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Deep Roots on February 02, 2013, 05:47:02 PM
If only we could have a kind of reeducation camp or something...for gays.

I hope this is a joke.
Or what?

Are you being intolerant?
:D
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Charles Martel on February 02, 2013, 05:54:37 PM
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?
Nothing, everyone should have HAPPY children. ;D
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Deep Roots on February 02, 2013, 06:20:50 PM
If only we could have a kind of reeducation camp or something...for gays.

I hope this is a joke.
Or what?

Are you being intolerant?
:D

it would ultimately be better for the gays themselves, as they'd be cured.  And if they don't want to be cured, at least it will keep them from our precious children and will prevent the further feminization of our society!   :-*
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Peter J on February 02, 2013, 06:23:13 PM
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Peter J on February 02, 2013, 06:24:34 PM
If only we could have a kind of reeducation camp or something...for gays.

I hope this is a joke.
Or what?

Are you being intolerant?
:D

it would ultimately be better for the gays themselves, as they'd be cured.

Easy there Exodus.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: That person on February 02, 2013, 06:24:57 PM
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days One by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?
Nothing, everyone should have HAPPY children. ;D
Oh **** this again?

I'll just reiterate to all the straight folks in the house that we started this one.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: stavros_388 on February 02, 2013, 06:25:19 PM
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?
Nothing, everyone should have HAPPY children. ;D

EDIT- I'm thick and missed joke.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: JamesRottnek on February 02, 2013, 06:26:15 PM
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.

Oh well certainly (and I'd go ahead and add Yesh to that too, seeing as how his motto is "Make 'em homeless; make 'em straight")!
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Deep Roots on February 02, 2013, 06:26:57 PM
If only we could have a kind of reeducation camp or something...for gays.

I hope this is a joke.
Or what?

Are you being intolerant?
:D

it would ultimately be better for the gays themselves, as they'd be cured.

Easy there Exodus.
;)
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Charles Martel on February 02, 2013, 06:34:21 PM
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.
How was your straight father? Don't worry about me or Kerdy in our standards as men or fathers.

I have two sons (neither homosexual) but if they were, I would still love them.

I would love then enough to tell them they are wrong and in danger of hellfire.

That's real love, telling them the coldhearted truth and the reality of these things.

Not some wimpy, lovey-dovey speech about "tolerance" and acceptance.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Charles Martel on February 02, 2013, 06:39:50 PM
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?
Nothing, everyone should have HAPPY children. ;D

EDIT- I'm thick and missed joke.
No joke. Who doesn't want Happy children?

Definition of GAY
1a : happily excited : merry <in a gay mood> b : keenly alive and exuberant : having or inducing high spirits <a bird's gay spring song>


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gay
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: stavros_388 on February 02, 2013, 06:43:27 PM
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.
How was your straight father? Don't worry about me or Kerdy in our standards as men or fathers.

I have two sons (neither homosexual) but if they were, I would still love them.

I would love then enough to tell them they are wrong and in danger of hellfire.

That's real love, telling them the coldhearted truth and the reality of these things.

Not some wimpy, lovey-dovey speech about "tolerance" and acceptance.

Wimpy?? You're funny. But in a frightening kind of way.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: stavros_388 on February 02, 2013, 06:43:53 PM
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?
Nothing, everyone should have HAPPY children. ;D

EDIT- I'm thick and missed joke.
No joke. Who doesn't want Happy children?

Definition of GAY
1a : happily excited : merry <in a gay mood> b : keenly alive and exuberant : having or inducing high spirits <a bird's gay spring song>


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gay

Yeah, yeah, I got it.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: TheMathematician on February 02, 2013, 06:45:08 PM
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?
Nothing, everyone should have HAPPY children. ;D

EDIT- I'm thick and missed joke.
No joke. Who doesn't want Happy children?

Definition of GAY
1a : happily excited : merry <in a gay mood> b : keenly alive and exuberant : having or inducing high spirits <a bird's gay spring song>


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gay
I can use a dictionary too

Gay
 Definition
› homosexual:

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/american-english/gay_1?q=gay
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: TheMathematician on February 02, 2013, 06:47:03 PM
also, my post regarding the topic of this thread is coming, i need to let it back some more
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: NicholasMyra on February 02, 2013, 07:08:25 PM
nevermind
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: NicholasMyra on February 02, 2013, 07:14:42 PM
Quote
If the gay boy becomes attracted to the straight boy, a quick punch in the nuts from the straight boy will put an end to that right quick!

... if the straight boy has enough gumption to do it, sure. And he should!

Sadly, that's not always the case, especially if the straight boy is younger, smaller, or susceptible to bullying and coercion.
LBK, if the boy scouts are gonna gang rape somebody, sexual orientation won't have anything to do with it.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: NicholasMyra on February 02, 2013, 07:22:14 PM
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  
Kerdy, you know we sang songs about conquering barbarians in the name of Christ, right?

And how we burnt people at the stake and beat civilians to death?

And how monasteries held slave auctions?

And we're still here.

Do you really think a few gays can do what we couldn't?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 02, 2013, 09:22:22 PM
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.
 

I am unsure how expressing my sincere feelings is sanctimonious, but if you say so it must be true.  I get the feeling you are seeing things.  Unless, expressing your thoughts, fears, feelings and concerns is sanctimonious.  Then again, if that is the case, you also are sanctimonious.  So where does that leave us?

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.
 

I have all the perspective I need.  Again, you see and read what you want to be there, not what is actually being posted.  You interpret, paraphrase, and ignore.  Sounds more like a personal issue with you than it sounds like any problem with me.  What makes you think if one of my children told me they were homosexual I would treat them in an evil way?  Because I don’t share your skewed understanding?  That isn’t evil,  that is reality.  As the proponents are so fond of saying, “deal with it.”

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You  We should be ashamed of yourselves ourselves.
 

Fixed it for you and you are correct.  It is repulsive, but not how you think.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.
 

First thing, I am not Christ.  Second thing, He sat with them and ministered to them.  He NEVER told them their sins were acceptable.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

This has absolutely nothing to do with anything I have posted.  Was this one of those posts to make you feel better?  
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 02, 2013, 09:22:57 PM
Achronos, what's been eating you lately?

The truth.  Some people just can't handle the truth.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 02, 2013, 09:23:35 PM
Kerdy, I am sorry you are so distressed, may the Lord grant you peace.

It isn't me I am worried about, but thank you.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 02, 2013, 09:24:06 PM
I grow weary of the fight.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_HoDij8Z2tHY/THEtOnsAeoI/AAAAAAAAEjk/_7fFc5BLmLg/s320/Tiny+Violin.jpg)

Good one.  What was the rebuttal again? 
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 02, 2013, 09:26:09 PM
I'm curious: are we condemning males for being heterosexual when we ban then from the women's locker room?

Not until it is part of an agenda.  Give it time.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 02, 2013, 09:27:20 PM
I don't think orthonorm and augustin are as similar as the latter would like to believe.
Have you been smoking something ?

Brilliant rebuttal...pure genius.  You clearly are the envy of the debating world.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 02, 2013, 09:29:45 PM
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same ferocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".
It’s what I like to call the exclusionary rule.  If you agree with yourself, you are excluded.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 02, 2013, 09:32:14 PM
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.

I’m astounded you can make such an assumption having never met either of us, seen us interact with children, or our history and experiences with children, much less our own. 
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 02, 2013, 09:35:07 PM
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.

Oh well certainly (and I'd go ahead and add Yesh to that too, seeing as how his motto is "Make 'em homeless; make 'em straight")!

There you go attributing words which a person has not said.  You do realize by using “  “, you are supposed to be quoting from someone.  If they, in fact, did not say what you quote, you are being dishonest.  I can’t speak for Charles, but I know I have never mentioned these words in this context.  I am not surprise, though; this appears to be your discipline of argumentation.  Just say hateful things.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 02, 2013, 09:38:57 PM
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.
How was your straight father? Don't worry about me or Kerdy in our standards as men or fathers.

I have two sons (neither homosexual) but if they were, I would still love them.

I would love then enough to tell them they are wrong and in danger of hellfire.

That's real love, telling them the coldhearted truth and the reality of these things.

Not some wimpy, lovey-dovey speech about "tolerance" and acceptance.
Be careful Charles.  You should know by now if you don’t agree, you "hate gay homosexual people and would be perfectly pleased if they all died”.  Just ask JamesR.  (See how the quotations work there James?)
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 02, 2013, 09:40:42 PM
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.
How was your straight father? Don't worry about me or Kerdy in our standards as men or fathers.

I have two sons (neither homosexual) but if they were, I would still love them.

I would love then enough to tell them they are wrong and in danger of hellfire.

That's real love, telling them the coldhearted truth and the reality of these things.

Not some wimpy, lovey-dovey speech about "tolerance" and acceptance.

Wimpy?? You're funny. But in a frightening kind of way.

2+2 does not equal Purple.

His "wimpy" statement was not a masculine attack against homosexuality.  It was a reference to the "be what you want to be regardless of what is right" mentality.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: That person on February 02, 2013, 10:06:43 PM
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.
 

I am unsure how expressing my sincere feelings is sanctimonious, but if you say so it must be true.  I get the feeling you are seeing things.  Unless, expressing your thoughts, fears, feelings and concerns is sanctimonious.  Then again, if that is the case, you also are sanctimonious.  So where does that leave us?

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.
 

I have all the perspective I need.  Again, you see and read what you want to be there, not what is actually being posted.  You interpret, paraphrase, and ignore.  Sounds more like a personal issue with you than it sounds like any problem with me.  What makes you think if one of my children told me they were homosexual I would treat them in an evil way?  Because I don’t share your skewed understanding?  That isn’t evil,  that is reality.  As the proponents are so fond of saying, “deal with it.”

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You  We should be ashamed of yourselves ourselves.
 

Fixed it for you and you are correct.  It is repulsive, but not how you think.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.
 

First thing, I am not Christ.  Second thing, He sat with them and ministered to them.  He NEVER told them their sins were acceptable.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

This has absolutely nothing to do with anything I have posted.  Was this one of those posts to make you feel better? 

Achronos, what's been eating you lately?

The truth.  Some people just can't handle the truth.
I grow weary of the fight.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_HoDij8Z2tHY/THEtOnsAeoI/AAAAAAAAEjk/_7fFc5BLmLg/s320/Tiny+Violin.jpg)

Good one.  What was the rebuttal again? 
I'm curious: are we condemning males for being heterosexual when we ban then from the women's locker room?

Not until it is part of an agenda.  Give it time.
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same ferocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".
It’s what I like to call the exclusionary rule.  If you agree with yourself, you are excluded.
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.

I’m astounded you can make such an assumption having never met either of us, seen us interact with children, or our history and experiences with children, much less our own. 
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.

Oh well certainly (and I'd go ahead and add Yesh to that too, seeing as how his motto is "Make 'em homeless; make 'em straight")!

There you go attributing words which a person has not said.  You do realize by using “  “, you are supposed to be quoting from someone.  If they, in fact, did not say what you quote, you are being dishonest.  I can’t speak for Charles, but I know I have never mentioned these words in this context.  I am not surprise, though; this appears to be your discipline of argumentation.  Just say hateful things.
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.
How was your straight father? Don't worry about me or Kerdy in our standards as men or fathers.

I have two sons (neither homosexual) but if they were, I would still love them.

I would love then enough to tell them they are wrong and in danger of hellfire.

That's real love, telling them the coldhearted truth and the reality of these things.

Not some wimpy, lovey-dovey speech about "tolerance" and acceptance.
Be careful Charles.  You should know by now if you don’t agree, you "hate gay homosexual people and would be perfectly pleased if they all died”.  Just ask JamesR.  (See how the quotations work there James?)
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.
How was your straight father? Don't worry about me or Kerdy in our standards as men or fathers.

I have two sons (neither homosexual) but if they were, I would still love them.

I would love then enough to tell them they are wrong and in danger of hellfire.

That's real love, telling them the coldhearted truth and the reality of these things.

Not some wimpy, lovey-dovey speech about "tolerance" and acceptance.

Wimpy?? You're funny. But in a frightening kind of way.

2+2 does not equal Purple.

His "wimpy" statement was not a masculine attack against homosexuality.  It was a reference to the "be what you want to be regardless of what is right" mentality.
You can quote multiple posts at once, just FYI. Keep this crap better-contained.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 02, 2013, 10:11:46 PM
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.
 

I am unsure how expressing my sincere feelings is sanctimonious, but if you say so it must be true.  I get the feeling you are seeing things.  Unless, expressing your thoughts, fears, feelings and concerns is sanctimonious.  Then again, if that is the case, you also are sanctimonious.  So where does that leave us?

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.
 

I have all the perspective I need.  Again, you see and read what you want to be there, not what is actually being posted.  You interpret, paraphrase, and ignore.  Sounds more like a personal issue with you than it sounds like any problem with me.  What makes you think if one of my children told me they were homosexual I would treat them in an evil way?  Because I don’t share your skewed understanding?  That isn’t evil,  that is reality.  As the proponents are so fond of saying, “deal with it.”

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You  We should be ashamed of yourselves ourselves.
 

Fixed it for you and you are correct.  It is repulsive, but not how you think.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.
 

First thing, I am not Christ.  Second thing, He sat with them and ministered to them.  He NEVER told them their sins were acceptable.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

This has absolutely nothing to do with anything I have posted.  Was this one of those posts to make you feel better?  

Achronos, what's been eating you lately?

The truth.  Some people just can't handle the truth.
I grow weary of the fight.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_HoDij8Z2tHY/THEtOnsAeoI/AAAAAAAAEjk/_7fFc5BLmLg/s320/Tiny+Violin.jpg)

Good one.  What was the rebuttal again?  
I'm curious: are we condemning males for being heterosexual when we ban then from the women's locker room?

Not until it is part of an agenda.  Give it time.
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same ferocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".
It’s what I like to call the exclusionary rule.  If you agree with yourself, you are excluded.
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.

I’m astounded you can make such an assumption having never met either of us, seen us interact with children, or our history and experiences with children, much less our own.  
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.

Oh well certainly (and I'd go ahead and add Yesh to that too, seeing as how his motto is "Make 'em homeless; make 'em straight")!

There you go attributing words which a person has not said.  You do realize by using “  “, you are supposed to be quoting from someone.  If they, in fact, did not say what you quote, you are being dishonest.  I can’t speak for Charles, but I know I have never mentioned these words in this context.  I am not surprise, though; this appears to be your discipline of argumentation.  Just say hateful things.
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.
How was your straight father? Don't worry about me or Kerdy in our standards as men or fathers.

I have two sons (neither homosexual) but if they were, I would still love them.

I would love then enough to tell them they are wrong and in danger of hellfire.

That's real love, telling them the coldhearted truth and the reality of these things.

Not some wimpy, lovey-dovey speech about "tolerance" and acceptance.
Be careful Charles.  You should know by now if you don’t agree, you "hate gay homosexual people and would be perfectly pleased if they all died”.  Just ask JamesR.  (See how the quotations work there James?)
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.
How was your straight father? Don't worry about me or Kerdy in our standards as men or fathers.

I have two sons (neither homosexual) but if they were, I would still love them.

I would love then enough to tell them they are wrong and in danger of hellfire.

That's real love, telling them the coldhearted truth and the reality of these things.

Not some wimpy, lovey-dovey speech about "tolerance" and acceptance.

Wimpy?? You're funny. But in a frightening kind of way.

2+2 does not equal Purple.

His "wimpy" statement was not a masculine attack against homosexuality.  It was a reference to the "be what you want to be regardless of what is right" mentality.
You can quote multiple posts at once, just FYI. Keep this crap better-contained.

Is there a forum rule about this?  And what do you mean by "crap?"  You may want to take a course in civility and learn how to ask someone for something.  Just a thought.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: That person on February 02, 2013, 10:30:34 PM
Just general internet courtesy from what I've gathered. Certainly personal preference. And I think "crap" is a pretty polite way of characterizing your posts in this thread.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 02, 2013, 10:33:32 PM
Just general internet courtesy from what I've gathered. Certainly personal preference.

If it is a rule, I will comply.  If not, I prefer to keep it simple and understandable.

And I think "crap" is a pretty polite way of characterizing your posts in this thread.

And you would be incorrect.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Charles Martel on February 02, 2013, 10:34:39 PM
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.

Oh well certainly (and I'd go ahead and add Yesh to that too, seeing as how his motto is "Make 'em homeless; make 'em straight")!

There you go attributing words which a person has not said.  You do realize by using “  “, you are supposed to be quoting from someone.  If they, in fact, did not say what you quote, you are being dishonest.  I can’t speak for Charles, but I know I have never mentioned these words in this context.  I am not surprise, though; this appears to be your discipline of argumentation.  Just say hateful things.
What? I'd make one of my own children "Homeless" to prove a point? Absolutely not!

What the hell is wrong with some of these posters on here to make some of the statements like this?

Oh right, I know......that "mental disorder" thing.

Good luck with that.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Charles Martel on February 02, 2013, 10:38:47 PM
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?
Nothing, everyone should have HAPPY children. ;D

EDIT- I'm thick and missed joke.
No joke. Who doesn't want Happy children?

Definition of GAY
1a : happily excited : merry <in a gay mood> b : keenly alive and exuberant : having or inducing high spirits <a bird's gay spring song>


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gay
I can use a dictionary too

Gay
 Definition
› homosexual:

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/american-english/gay_1?q=gay
Right, but my definition is the first and originial meaning of the word.

Besides, "Gay" has several defintions, "Homosexual" only has one.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: TheMathematician on February 02, 2013, 10:40:02 PM
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.

Oh well certainly (and I'd go ahead and add Yesh to that too, seeing as how his motto is "Make 'em homeless; make 'em straight")!

There you go attributing words which a person has not said.  You do realize by using “  “, you are supposed to be quoting from someone.  If they, in fact, did not say what you quote, you are being dishonest.  I can’t speak for Charles, but I know I have never mentioned these words in this context.  I am not surprise, though; this appears to be your discipline of argumentation.  Just say hateful things.
What? I'd make one of my own children "Homeless" to prove a point? Absolutely not!

What the hell is wrong with some of these posters on here to make some of the statements like this?

Oh right, I know......that "mental disorder" thing.

Good luck with that.

Just a bit for clarification: James was not talking about you, rather James, in his use of the pronoun "his", was referring to yeah, whom has, in fact, said this. He was adding onto his "list" of people he wishes would have gay(the word I will be using, feel free to change it to homosexual if it makes you feel better) children, which consists of kerry, and yes, you, and now yesh onto that list.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: augustin717 on February 02, 2013, 10:46:02 PM
Even if you Ch. Martel wouldn't make your children homeless to prove a point that happens all the time to gay kids with religious parents . I live in a neighborhood whre I see them often also read in the local press and even  talked to some a few times.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 02, 2013, 10:46:29 PM

Just a bit for clarification: James was not talking about you, rather James, in his use of the pronoun "his", was referring to yeah, whom has, in fact, said this. He was adding onto his "list" of people he wishes would have gay(the word I will be using, feel free to change it to homosexual if it makes you feel better) children, which consists of kerry, and yes, you, and now yesh onto that list.
Just for a bit of clarification:  It makes no difference.  What was said was contemptible in nature and no different than saying you wish someone would have a child who becomes addicted to drugs, becomes a prostitute, an alcoholic or any other sin which takes control of their life.  It was a deep seeded and detestable thing to say.  It truly reveals a person’s uncovered heart to wish hardship of another person, especially a child.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 02, 2013, 10:47:20 PM
happens all the time to gay kids with religious parents .

Just trying to help.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 02, 2013, 10:48:35 PM
Even if you Ch. Martel wouldn't make your children homeless to prove a point that happens all the time to gay kids with religious parents . I live in a neighborhood whre I see them often also read in the local press and even  talked to some a few times.
I have met many people who were at the time or previously homeless children for a wide variety of reasons.  Your point is empty in defense of your position.

BTW: Your post is rife with contemptibility...  "even if...to make a point"...really?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: augustin717 on February 02, 2013, 10:49:15 PM
happens all the time to gay kids with religious parents .

Just trying to help.
Meh u just being obtuse
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Charles Martel on February 02, 2013, 10:50:10 PM
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?
[/quolte]

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.
How was your straight father? Don't worry about me or Kerdy in our standards as men or fathers.

I have two sons (neither homosexual) but if they were, I would still love them.

I would love then enough to tell them they are wrong and in danger of hellfire.

That's real love, telling them the coldhearted truth and the reality of these things.

Not some wimpy, lovey-dovey speech about "tolerance" and acceptance.
Be careful Charles.  You should know by now if you don’t agree, you "hate gay homosexual people and would be perfectly pleased if they all died”.  Just ask JamesR.  (See how the quotations work there James?)
Yea, well, that's all fine and dandy, if I ever said such a thing, but I didn't and wouldn't.

I really don't care what the pro-homosexuals on here think of me, I care what God thinks and what the Church teaches.

Bottom line.

The truth is transcendent, everything else is just doodling with words.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Charles Martel on February 02, 2013, 11:00:11 PM
Even if you Ch. Martel wouldn't make your children homeless to prove a point that happens all the time to gay kids with religious parents . I live in a neighborhood whre I see them often also read in the local press and even  talked to some a few times.
I have never seen one.

But I have seen a few devout Christian parents heartbroken by a child's choice to be rebellious against everything they tried lovingly to teach them.And even then, they still choose to leave on their own because the parents will not condone their "lifestyle" under their roof.

I have also seen more than my share of non-religious fathers verbally, psychologically and physically abuse that "queer" for a son.

I don't understand why it's always the people with Faith that get the bad rap when it comes to this homosexual issue.

Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 02, 2013, 11:00:33 PM
happens all the time to gay kids with religious parents .

Just trying to help.
Meh u just being obtuse

Facts and truth are obtuse?  Now that is an interesting take on the matter.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 02, 2013, 11:04:37 PM
Even if you Ch. Martel wouldn't make your children homeless to prove a point that happens all the time to gay kids with religious parents . I live in a neighborhood whre I see them often also read in the local press and even  talked to some a few times.
I have never seen one.

But I have seen a few devout Christian parents heartbroken by a child's choice to be rebellious against everything they tried lovingly to teach them.And even then, they still choose to leave on their own because the parents will not condone their "lifestyle" under their roof.

I have also seen more than my share of non-religious fathers verbally, psychologically and physically abuse that "queer" for a son.

I don't understand why it's always the people with Faith that get the bad rap when it comes to this homosexual issue.


Their view seems to be if a parent does not condone the child’s choices and as a parent, set rules which that child must follow, and that child chooses to leave (run away), the parent physically kicked them out.  It’s simple non-math.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: augustin717 on February 02, 2013, 11:07:48 PM
Even if you Ch. Martel wouldn't make your children homeless to prove a point that happens all the time to gay kids with religious parents . I live in a neighborhood whre I see them often also read in the local press and even  talked to some a few times.
I have never seen one.

But I have seen a few devout Christian parents heartbroken by a child's choice to be rebellious against everything they tried lovingly to teach them.And even then, they still choose to leave on their own because the parents will not condone their "lifestyle" under their roof.

I have also seen more than my share of non-religious fathers verbally, psychologically and physically abuse that "queer" for a son.

I don't understand why it's always the people with Faith that get the bad rap when it comes to this homosexual issue.


Well you just kinda proved my point. How would condoning the"lifestyle" under your loving Christian roof look like hypothetically of course?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 02, 2013, 11:10:34 PM
Even if you Ch. Martel wouldn't make your children homeless to prove a point that happens all the time to gay kids with religious parents . I live in a neighborhood whre I see them often also read in the local press and even  talked to some a few times.
I have never seen one.

But I have seen a few devout Christian parents heartbroken by a child's choice to be rebellious against everything they tried lovingly to teach them.And even then, they still choose to leave on their own because the parents will not condone their "lifestyle" under their roof.

I have also seen more than my share of non-religious fathers verbally, psychologically and physically abuse that "queer" for a son.

I don't understand why it's always the people with Faith that get the bad rap when it comes to this homosexual issue.


Well you just kinda proved my point. How would condoning the"lifestyle" under your loving Christian roof look like hypothetically of course?

Still twisting words to mean something they don't mean?  Silliness!
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: ialmisry on February 02, 2013, 11:32:11 PM
Even if you Ch. Martel wouldn't make your children homeless to prove a point that happens all the time to gay kids with religious parents . I live in a neighborhood whre I see them often also read in the local press and even  talked to some a few times.
happens to gay kids with non-religious parents.

I know some kids thrown out by their parents for getting religion.  Do they count?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Shiny on February 03, 2013, 12:57:09 AM
Just for a bit of clarification:  It makes no difference.  What was said was contemptible in nature and no different than saying you wish someone would have a child who becomes addicted to drugs, becomes a prostitute, an alcoholic or any other sin which takes control of their life. It was a deep seeded and detestable thing to say.  It truly reveals a person’s uncovered heart to wish hardship of another person, especially a child.

Bolded for being so reprehensibly obtuse.

How do you connect gays with drug addicts, prostitutes and alcoholics is absolutely beyond me.

So what do you think of Fr. Seraphim Rose?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 03, 2013, 12:58:39 AM
Just for a bit of clarification:  It makes no difference.  What was said was contemptible in nature and no different than saying you wish someone would have a child who becomes addicted to drugs, becomes a prostitute, an alcoholic or any other sin which takes control of their life. It was a deep seeded and detestable thing to say.  It truly reveals a person’s uncovered heart to wish hardship of another person, especially a child.

Bolded for being so reprehensibly obtuse.

Failed.  Nice try though.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: FatherGiryus on February 03, 2013, 01:00:25 AM
I don't recall atheists being much kinder about gays.  I grew up in an atheistic home, none of my friends went to church, and gays were spoken of in far worse terms than I've ever heard in Orthodox circles.

In fact, homosexuality was frowned upon in the Soviet Union as I recall.  Something about 'social deviancy.' 

Romania under communism was no funland for gays... http://goqnotes.com/editorial/editorsnote_060905.html (http://goqnotes.com/editorial/editorsnote_060905.html)



Even if you Ch. Martel wouldn't make your children homeless to prove a point that happens all the time to gay kids with religious parents . I live in a neighborhood whre I see them often also read in the local press and even  talked to some a few times.
happens to gay kids with non-religious parents.

I know some kids thrown out by their parents for getting religion.  Do they count?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 03, 2013, 01:01:23 AM
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.
 

I am unsure how expressing my sincere feelings is sanctimonious, but if you say so it must be true.  I get the feeling you are seeing things.  Unless, expressing your thoughts, fears, feelings and concerns is sanctimonious.  Then again, if that is the case, you also are sanctimonious.  So where does that leave us?

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.
 

I have all the perspective I need.  Again, you see and read what you want to be there, not what is actually being posted.  You interpret, paraphrase, and ignore.  Sounds more like a personal issue with you than it sounds like any problem with me.  What makes you think if one of my children told me they were homosexual I would treat them in an evil way?  Because I don’t share your skewed understanding?  That isn’t evil,  that is reality.  As the proponents are so fond of saying, “deal with it.”

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You  We should be ashamed of yourselves ourselves.
 

Fixed it for you and you are correct.  It is repulsive, but not how you think.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.
 

First thing, I am not Christ.  Second thing, He sat with them and ministered to them.  He NEVER told them their sins were acceptable.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

This has absolutely nothing to do with anything I have posted.  Was this one of those posts to make you feel better? 

Achronos, what's been eating you lately?

The truth.  Some people just can't handle the truth.
I grow weary of the fight.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_HoDij8Z2tHY/THEtOnsAeoI/AAAAAAAAEjk/_7fFc5BLmLg/s320/Tiny+Violin.jpg)

Good one.  What was the rebuttal again? 
I'm curious: are we condemning males for being heterosexual when we ban then from the women's locker room?

Not until it is part of an agenda.  Give it time.
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same ferocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".
It’s what I like to call the exclusionary rule.  If you agree with yourself, you are excluded.
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.

I’m astounded you can make such an assumption having never met either of us, seen us interact with children, or our history and experiences with children, much less our own. 
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.

Oh well certainly (and I'd go ahead and add Yesh to that too, seeing as how his motto is "Make 'em homeless; make 'em straight")!

There you go attributing words which a person has not said.  You do realize by using “  “, you are supposed to be quoting from someone.  If they, in fact, did not say what you quote, you are being dishonest.  I can’t speak for Charles, but I know I have never mentioned these words in this context.  I am not surprise, though; this appears to be your discipline of argumentation.  Just say hateful things.
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.
How was your straight father? Don't worry about me or Kerdy in our standards as men or fathers.

I have two sons (neither homosexual) but if they were, I would still love them.

I would love then enough to tell them they are wrong and in danger of hellfire.

That's real love, telling them the coldhearted truth and the reality of these things.

Not some wimpy, lovey-dovey speech about "tolerance" and acceptance.
Be careful Charles.  You should know by now if you don’t agree, you "hate gay homosexual people and would be perfectly pleased if they all died”.  Just ask JamesR.  (See how the quotations work there James?)
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.
How was your straight father? Don't worry about me or Kerdy in our standards as men or fathers.

I have two sons (neither homosexual) but if they were, I would still love them.

I would love then enough to tell them they are wrong and in danger of hellfire.

That's real love, telling them the coldhearted truth and the reality of these things.

Not some wimpy, lovey-dovey speech about "tolerance" and acceptance.

Wimpy?? You're funny. But in a frightening kind of way.

2+2 does not equal Purple.

His "wimpy" statement was not a masculine attack against homosexuality.  It was a reference to the "be what you want to be regardless of what is right" mentality.
You can quote multiple posts at once, just FYI. Keep this crap better-contained.
Actually, he's much less confusing when he quotes only one person per post. :police:
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 03, 2013, 01:05:04 AM
Just for a bit of clarification:  It makes no difference.  What was said was contemptible in nature and no different than saying you wish someone would have a child who becomes addicted to drugs, becomes a prostitute, an alcoholic or any other sin which takes control of their life. It was a deep seeded and detestable thing to say.  It truly reveals a person’s uncovered heart to wish hardship of another person, especially a child.

Bolded for being so reprehensibly obtuse.

How do you connect gays with drug addicts, prostitutes and alcoholics is absolutely beyond me.

So what do you think of Fr. Seraphim Rose?
Fr. Seraphim Rose repented.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Shiny on February 03, 2013, 01:05:21 AM
to wish hardshipof another person, especially a child.
Oh and this.

So now a gay child is a hardship? You have got to be kidding me. You want to kick them out of their home for it too? Give them enough money to catch a bus? Because heaven forbid your hardship make it so difficult for you.

Oh hey son, you are gay? Get out of my house, and I don't care if you aren't having sex.

This is exactly why I suggested it.

Thank you for showing what kind of heart you have, or lack thereof.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Shiny on February 03, 2013, 01:06:00 AM
Fr. Seraphim Rose repented.
And how long did that take Peter?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: That person on February 03, 2013, 01:06:38 AM
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.
 

I am unsure how expressing my sincere feelings is sanctimonious, but if you say so it must be true.  I get the feeling you are seeing things.  Unless, expressing your thoughts, fears, feelings and concerns is sanctimonious.  Then again, if that is the case, you also are sanctimonious.  So where does that leave us?

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.
 

I have all the perspective I need.  Again, you see and read what you want to be there, not what is actually being posted.  You interpret, paraphrase, and ignore.  Sounds more like a personal issue with you than it sounds like any problem with me.  What makes you think if one of my children told me they were homosexual I would treat them in an evil way?  Because I don’t share your skewed understanding?  That isn’t evil,  that is reality.  As the proponents are so fond of saying, “deal with it.”

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You  We should be ashamed of yourselves ourselves.
 

Fixed it for you and you are correct.  It is repulsive, but not how you think.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.
 

First thing, I am not Christ.  Second thing, He sat with them and ministered to them.  He NEVER told them their sins were acceptable.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

This has absolutely nothing to do with anything I have posted.  Was this one of those posts to make you feel better? 

Achronos, what's been eating you lately?

The truth.  Some people just can't handle the truth.
I grow weary of the fight.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_HoDij8Z2tHY/THEtOnsAeoI/AAAAAAAAEjk/_7fFc5BLmLg/s320/Tiny+Violin.jpg)

Good one.  What was the rebuttal again? 
I'm curious: are we condemning males for being heterosexual when we ban then from the women's locker room?

Not until it is part of an agenda.  Give it time.
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same ferocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".
It’s what I like to call the exclusionary rule.  If you agree with yourself, you are excluded.
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.

I’m astounded you can make such an assumption having never met either of us, seen us interact with children, or our history and experiences with children, much less our own. 
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.

Oh well certainly (and I'd go ahead and add Yesh to that too, seeing as how his motto is "Make 'em homeless; make 'em straight")!

There you go attributing words which a person has not said.  You do realize by using “  “, you are supposed to be quoting from someone.  If they, in fact, did not say what you quote, you are being dishonest.  I can’t speak for Charles, but I know I have never mentioned these words in this context.  I am not surprise, though; this appears to be your discipline of argumentation.  Just say hateful things.
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.
How was your straight father? Don't worry about me or Kerdy in our standards as men or fathers.

I have two sons (neither homosexual) but if they were, I would still love them.

I would love then enough to tell them they are wrong and in danger of hellfire.

That's real love, telling them the coldhearted truth and the reality of these things.

Not some wimpy, lovey-dovey speech about "tolerance" and acceptance.
Be careful Charles.  You should know by now if you don’t agree, you "hate gay homosexual people and would be perfectly pleased if they all died”.  Just ask JamesR.  (See how the quotations work there James?)
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.
How was your straight father? Don't worry about me or Kerdy in our standards as men or fathers.

I have two sons (neither homosexual) but if they were, I would still love them.

I would love then enough to tell them they are wrong and in danger of hellfire.

That's real love, telling them the coldhearted truth and the reality of these things.

Not some wimpy, lovey-dovey speech about "tolerance" and acceptance.

Wimpy?? You're funny. But in a frightening kind of way.

2+2 does not equal Purple.

His "wimpy" statement was not a masculine attack against homosexuality.  It was a reference to the "be what you want to be regardless of what is right" mentality.
You can quote multiple posts at once, just FYI. Keep this crap better-contained.
Actually, he's much less confusing when he quotes only one person per post. :police:
You think so? Mods on another forum I go to a lot tend to merge multiple post series and generally frown upon double-posting.  That's on VBulletin though, where multi-quoting is a lot more straight-forward.

Ideally,  Kerdy's point would be expressed without any posts at all.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 03, 2013, 01:08:15 AM
to wish hardshipof another person, especially a child.
Oh and this.

So now a gay child is a hardship? You have got to be kidding me. You want to kick them out of their home for it too? Give them enough money to catch a bus? Because heaven forbid your hardship make it so difficult for you.

Oh hey son, you are gay? Get out of my house, and I don't care if you aren't having sex.

This is exactly why I suggested it.

Thank you for showing what kind of heart you have, or lack thereof.
Thank you for showing how little time you actually spend reading others' posts. Even I can see that you show absolutely no comprehension of what Kerdy just said.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 03, 2013, 01:09:00 AM
Fr. Seraphim Rose repented.
And how long did that take Peter?
Does it matter?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Shiny on February 03, 2013, 01:11:09 AM
to wish hardshipof another person, especially a child.
Oh and this.

So now a gay child is a hardship? You have got to be kidding me. You want to kick them out of their home for it too? Give them enough money to catch a bus? Because heaven forbid your hardship make it so difficult for you.

Oh hey son, you are gay? Get out of my house, and I don't care if you aren't having sex.

This is exactly why I suggested it.

Thank you for showing what kind of heart you have, or lack thereof.
Thank you for showing how little time you actually spend reading others' posts. Even I can see that you show absolutely no comprehension of what Kerdy just said.
No I comprehended it very clearly.

For context:
Quote
What was said was contemptible in nature and no different than saying you wish someone would have a child becomes addicted to drugs, becomes a prostitute, an alcoholic or any other sin which takes control of their life.

So now having a gay son is a hardship on the parent. Which is as he says here:

Quote
to wish hardship of another person, especially a child.

Since when did the Church denounce a person of their sexuality? The Church allowed Fr. Seraphim Rose to be a monk, and he struggled until his last breathe to fight homosexual sins. But that is who he was, a homosexual.

What happened to hating the sin and loving the person?

And how is being homosexual a sin in of itself?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Shiny on February 03, 2013, 01:11:18 AM
Fr. Seraphim Rose repented.
And how long did that take Peter?
Does it matter?
Answer the question Peter, please.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 03, 2013, 01:13:59 AM
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.
 

I am unsure how expressing my sincere feelings is sanctimonious, but if you say so it must be true.  I get the feeling you are seeing things.  Unless, expressing your thoughts, fears, feelings and concerns is sanctimonious.  Then again, if that is the case, you also are sanctimonious.  So where does that leave us?

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.
 

I have all the perspective I need.  Again, you see and read what you want to be there, not what is actually being posted.  You interpret, paraphrase, and ignore.  Sounds more like a personal issue with you than it sounds like any problem with me.  What makes you think if one of my children told me they were homosexual I would treat them in an evil way?  Because I don’t share your skewed understanding?  That isn’t evil,  that is reality.  As the proponents are so fond of saying, “deal with it.”

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You  We should be ashamed of yourselves ourselves.
 

Fixed it for you and you are correct.  It is repulsive, but not how you think.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.
 

First thing, I am not Christ.  Second thing, He sat with them and ministered to them.  He NEVER told them their sins were acceptable.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

This has absolutely nothing to do with anything I have posted.  Was this one of those posts to make you feel better? 

Achronos, what's been eating you lately?

The truth.  Some people just can't handle the truth.
I grow weary of the fight.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_HoDij8Z2tHY/THEtOnsAeoI/AAAAAAAAEjk/_7fFc5BLmLg/s320/Tiny+Violin.jpg)

Good one.  What was the rebuttal again? 
I'm curious: are we condemning males for being heterosexual when we ban then from the women's locker room?

Not until it is part of an agenda.  Give it time.
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same ferocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".
It’s what I like to call the exclusionary rule.  If you agree with yourself, you are excluded.
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.

I’m astounded you can make such an assumption having never met either of us, seen us interact with children, or our history and experiences with children, much less our own. 
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.

Oh well certainly (and I'd go ahead and add Yesh to that too, seeing as how his motto is "Make 'em homeless; make 'em straight")!

There you go attributing words which a person has not said.  You do realize by using “  “, you are supposed to be quoting from someone.  If they, in fact, did not say what you quote, you are being dishonest.  I can’t speak for Charles, but I know I have never mentioned these words in this context.  I am not surprise, though; this appears to be your discipline of argumentation.  Just say hateful things.
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.
How was your straight father? Don't worry about me or Kerdy in our standards as men or fathers.

I have two sons (neither homosexual) but if they were, I would still love them.

I would love then enough to tell them they are wrong and in danger of hellfire.

That's real love, telling them the coldhearted truth and the reality of these things.

Not some wimpy, lovey-dovey speech about "tolerance" and acceptance.
Be careful Charles.  You should know by now if you don’t agree, you "hate gay homosexual people and would be perfectly pleased if they all died”.  Just ask JamesR.  (See how the quotations work there James?)
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.
How was your straight father? Don't worry about me or Kerdy in our standards as men or fathers.

I have two sons (neither homosexual) but if they were, I would still love them.

I would love then enough to tell them they are wrong and in danger of hellfire.

That's real love, telling them the coldhearted truth and the reality of these things.

Not some wimpy, lovey-dovey speech about "tolerance" and acceptance.

Wimpy?? You're funny. But in a frightening kind of way.

2+2 does not equal Purple.

His "wimpy" statement was not a masculine attack against homosexuality.  It was a reference to the "be what you want to be regardless of what is right" mentality.
You can quote multiple posts at once, just FYI. Keep this crap better-contained.
Actually, he's much less confusing when he quotes only one person per post. :police:
You think so? Mods on another forum I go to a lot tend to merge multiple post series and generally frown upon double-posting.  That's on VBulletin though, where multi-quoting is a lot more straight-forward.

Ideally,  Kerdy's point would be expressed without any posts at all.
I don't know what general Internet etiquette is on this matter. All I know is that, on this forum, I get very confused when I see one post quoting multiple different people and giving a different response to each person quoted. I am also aware of a point of email etiquette that says that each email should address one and only one subject, again to avoid confusion. I would therefore rather see from one person a string of posts each responding to a different person then one long post responding to several people.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 03, 2013, 01:15:39 AM
to wish hardshipof another person, especially a child.
Oh and this.

So now a gay child is a hardship? You have got to be kidding me. You want to kick them out of their home for it too? Give them enough money to catch a bus? Because heaven forbid your hardship make it so difficult for you.

Oh hey son, you are gay? Get out of my house, and I don't care if you aren't having sex.

This is exactly why I suggested it.

Thank you for showing what kind of heart you have, or lack thereof.
Thank you for showing how little time you actually spend reading others' posts. Even I can see that you show absolutely no comprehension of what Kerdy just said.
No I comprehended it very clearly.

For context:
Quote
What was said was contemptible in nature and no different than saying you wish someone would have a child becomes addicted to drugs, becomes a prostitute, an alcoholic or any other sin which takes control of their life.

So now having a gay son is a hardship on the parent. Which is as he says here:

Quote
to wish hardship of another person, especially a child.

Since when did the Church denounce a person of their sexuality? You allowed Fr. Seraphim Rose to be a monk, and he struggled until his last breathe to fight homosexual sins. But that is who he was, a homosexual.

What happened to hating the sin and loving the person?
Have you asked him to clarify what he said, especially since you've already been accused of misreading others' posts by those others you misread? Or would you rather shoot now and ask questions later?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 03, 2013, 01:16:43 AM
Fr. Seraphim Rose repented.
And how long did that take Peter?
Does it matter?
Answer the question Peter, please.
First I need to know if answering your question is worth my time.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Shiny on February 03, 2013, 01:16:54 AM
There is no clarification needed, I am asking additional questions that further amplifies my point.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: augustin717 on February 03, 2013, 01:17:51 AM
I don't recall atheists being much kinder about gays.  I grew up in an atheistic home, none of my friends went to church, and gays were spoken of in far worse terms than I've ever heard in Orthodox circles.

In fact, homosexuality was frowned upon in the Soviet Union as I recall.  Something about 'social deviancy.' 

Romania under communism was no funland for gays... http://goqnotes.com/editorial/editorsnote_060905.html (http://goqnotes.com/editorial/editorsnote_060905.html)



Even if you Ch. Martel wouldn't make your children homeless to prove a point that happens all the time to gay kids with religious parents . I live in a neighborhood whre I see them often also read in the local press and even  talked to some a few times.
happens to gay kids with non-religious parents.

I know some kids thrown out by their parents for getting religion.  Do they count?
nice spin reverend father, but we know that. the point is that in urban or suburban america the more a certain family is invested into a certain type of religion (not mainline episcopalian)  the greater the possibility would be they have a more disapproving view of homosexuality, whereas I think the level of disapproval would be significantly lower in more secularized households. of course there are exceptions but I think this are the dynamics today.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Shiny on February 03, 2013, 01:18:00 AM
Fr. Seraphim Rose repented.
And how long did that take Peter?
Does it matter?
Answer the question Peter, please.
First I need to know if your question is worth answering.
Number of years please.

1?

5?

10?

15?

How about 28?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 03, 2013, 01:18:14 AM
There is no clarification needed, I am asking additional questions that further amplify my point.
As opposed to asking questions that further amplify your comprehension?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 03, 2013, 01:18:53 AM
Fr. Seraphim Rose repented.
And how long did that take Peter?
Does it matter?
Answer the question Peter, please.
First I need to know if your question is worth answering.
Number of years please.

1?

5?

10?

15?

How about 28?
Okay, if you won't tell me why answering your question is worth my time, I'm not going to answer. So don't ask me again.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 03, 2013, 01:23:26 AM
Just for a bit of clarification:  It makes no difference.  What was said was contemptible in nature and no different than saying you wish someone would have a child who becomes addicted to drugs, becomes a prostitute, an alcoholic or any other sin which takes control of their life. It was a deep seeded and detestable thing to say.  It truly reveals a person’s uncovered heart to wish hardship of another person, especially a child.

Bolded for being so reprehensibly obtuse.

How do you connect gays with drug addicts, prostitutes and alcoholics is absolutely beyond me.

So what do you think of Fr. Seraphim Rose?

You edited and added, so I will respond again.

I connect them in the same way, as I already stated, any sin which is allowed to take control of ones life.  There are a lot of them out there.  Homosexuality is just one of them.  Some people are addicted to sex itself and must resist.  It isn't all about homosexuality, although some would like to make it look this way.

Fr. Seraphin Rose left his life of sin and lived for God.  I am sure he struggled with his thorn for some time, but I also am sure after years went by, God granted him peace as he controlled his flesh.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 03, 2013, 01:25:28 AM
to wish hardshipof another person, especially a child.
Oh and this.

So now a gay child is a hardship? You have got to be kidding me. You want to kick them out of their home for it too? Give them enough money to catch a bus? Because heaven forbid your hardship make it so difficult for you.

Oh hey son, you are gay? Get out of my house, and I don't care if you aren't having sex.

This is exactly why I suggested it.

Thank you for showing what kind of heart you have, or lack thereof.

Why are you arguing with me?  You are the one who said it.  Be upset with you.  Your attempt to turn it around on me is failing.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Asteriktos on February 03, 2013, 01:26:52 AM
They gay threads are real downers sometimes.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 03, 2013, 01:28:30 AM
Fr. Seraphim Rose repented.
And how long did that take Peter?

I'm not Peter, and I pretty much already answered this, but it probably took the rest of his life.  Well, not the repenting part.  That probably took about 10 minutes at confession.  The struggle was likely lifelong.  Sin doesn't stop tempting, at least for most people.  We just gain strength through God to win against its temptation.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 03, 2013, 01:29:31 AM


Ideally,  Kerdy's point would be expressed without any posts at all.

Well, just bless your little heart.

Those from the south understand.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 03, 2013, 01:31:00 AM
to wish hardshipof another person, especially a child.
Oh and this.

So now a gay child is a hardship? You have got to be kidding me. You want to kick them out of their home for it too? Give them enough money to catch a bus? Because heaven forbid your hardship make it so difficult for you.

Oh hey son, you are gay? Get out of my house, and I don't care if you aren't having sex.

This is exactly why I suggested it.

Thank you for showing what kind of heart you have, or lack thereof.
Thank you for showing how little time you actually spend reading others' posts. Even I can see that you show absolutely no comprehension of what Kerdy just said.
No I comprehended it very clearly.

For context:
Quote
What was said was contemptible in nature and no different than saying you wish someone would have a child becomes addicted to drugs, becomes a prostitute, an alcoholic or any other sin which takes control of their life.

So now having a gay son is a hardship on the parent. Which is as he says here:

Quote
to wish hardship of another person, especially a child.

Since when did the Church denounce a person of their sexuality? The Church allowed Fr. Seraphim Rose to be a monk, and he struggled until his last breathe to fight homosexual sins. But that is who he was, a homosexual.

What happened to hating the sin and loving the person?

And how is being homosexual a sin in of itself?

The whizzing sound you heard was my point zipping overhead.  You missed it.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: yeshuaisiam on February 03, 2013, 01:32:03 AM
When I was a kid, I was in the Boy Scouts.  There was a Scout Camp we went to that had a trading post that sold snacks, drinks, and fishing lures.

I asked my dad (with a young child's mind) "Dad when it's about to be the 2nd coming of Christ, do you think they'll sell drugs at the trading post?".   hahahaha

He basically laughed and just said "I doubt it son, but it will be rough".

I should have asked, "Dad, when it's about the be the 2nd coming of Christ, will Mr. Jimmy not have a wife, but be a sodomite with a man that he calls his husband"?

I don't doubt they'll let the Boy Scouts allow gays all through it.... After all, the girl scouts are embedded TOTALLY with planned parenthood.

"Dad, at the 2nd coming of Christ, will the girl scouts at the camp next to us not only sell cookies, but learn how to murder precious babies"?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 03, 2013, 01:33:34 AM
I don't recall atheists being much kinder about gays.  I grew up in an atheistic home, none of my friends went to church, and gays were spoken of in far worse terms than I've ever heard in Orthodox circles.

In fact, homosexuality was frowned upon in the Soviet Union as I recall.  Something about 'social deviancy.' 

Romania under communism was no funland for gays... http://goqnotes.com/editorial/editorsnote_060905.html (http://goqnotes.com/editorial/editorsnote_060905.html)



Even if you Ch. Martel wouldn't make your children homeless to prove a point that happens all the time to gay kids with religious parents . I live in a neighborhood whre I see them often also read in the local press and even  talked to some a few times.
happens to gay kids with non-religious parents.

I know some kids thrown out by their parents for getting religion.  Do they count?
nice spin reverend father, but we know that. the point is that in urban or suburban america the more a certain family is invested into a certain type of religion (not mainline episcopalian)  the greater the possibility would be they have a more disapproving view of homosexuality, whereas I think the level of disapproval would be significantly lower in more secularized households. of course there are exceptions but I think this are the dynamics today.

You are sort of missing the entire point of a Christian life.  It isn't the parents approval which is needed, it's God's, and He did not provide that.  Only a husband and a wife are allowed to engage in sexual activity.  Everything else is a sin.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Shiny on February 03, 2013, 01:35:08 AM
Fr. Seraphim Rose repented.
And how long did that take Peter?
Does it matter?
Answer the question Peter, please.
First I need to know if your question is worth answering.
Number of years please.

1?

5?

10?

15?

How about 28?
Okay, if you won't tell me why answering your question is worth my time, I'm not going to answer. So don't ask me again.
What I'm getting at, Peter, is that we are discussing homosexual boys, which has a lot more nuances and complexities than you and most of the people here will not give it credit for. Some of these boys may be confused about their sexuality and how they are to engage the world, if they are homosexual.

Do you honestly believe that kicking out your son, who you found out to be gay, is going to get him to change, let alone "repent"? And really, repent for what exactly? For having a sexual attraction to other males?

I have a sexual attraction to females, but that doesn't mean I sin. And neither do gays.

I'll give you that engaging in gay sex is sinful, and one should repent of it (that is if they are Orthodox), but not doing it isn't a sin.

Someone who is a gay has the same behaviors and feelings as someone who is straight. And we are finding more and more research that shows genetic and hormonal factors linking to homosexuality during the fetal stage in child development. Although I do believe environmental factors should be in consideration as well, but children that are born are more dispositioned to be gay biologically.

But they are human beings nonetheless. They should not be treated any differently than us just because of a difference in sexuality.

And really this nonsense that they are in sin.

Are you not in sin yourself? Judge not lest you be judged.

If we were to go down the list of sins committed, I'm sure heterosexuals would probably have a lot more to show for.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Shiny on February 03, 2013, 01:36:39 AM
to wish hardshipof another person, especially a child.
Oh and this.

So now a gay child is a hardship? You have got to be kidding me. You want to kick them out of their home for it too? Give them enough money to catch a bus? Because heaven forbid your hardship make it so difficult for you.

Oh hey son, you are gay? Get out of my house, and I don't care if you aren't having sex.

This is exactly why I suggested it.

Thank you for showing what kind of heart you have, or lack thereof.

Why are you arguing with me?  You are the one who said it.  Be upset with you.  Your attempt to turn it around on me is failing.
And your disgusting view on homosexuals might be cured if you had a gay son yourself.

Not only do you need perspective, you need some decency as well.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: yeshuaisiam on February 03, 2013, 01:45:25 AM
Fr. Seraphim Rose repented.
And how long did that take Peter?
Does it matter?
Answer the question Peter, please.
First I need to know if your question is worth answering.
Number of years please.

1?

5?

10?

15?

How about 28?
Okay, if you won't tell me why answering your question is worth my time, I'm not going to answer. So don't ask me again.
What I'm getting at, Peter, is that we are discussing homosexual boys, which has a lot more nuances and complexities than you and most of the people here will not give it credit for. Some of these boys may be confused about their sexuality and how they are to engage the world, if they are homosexual.

Do you honestly believe that kicking out your son, who you found out to be gay, is going to get him to change, let alone "repent"? And really, repent for what exactly? For having a sexual attraction to other males?

I have a sexual attraction to females, but that doesn't mean I sin. And neither do gays.

I'll give you that engaging in gay sex is sinful, and one should repent of it (that is if they are Orthodox), but not doing it isn't a sin.

Someone who is a gay has the same behaviors and feelings as someone who is straight. And we are finding more and more research that shows genetic and hormonal factors linking to homosexuality during the fetal stage in child development. Although I do believe environmental factors should be in consideration as well, but I do believe children that are born are more dispositioned to be gay biologically.

But they are human beings nonetheless. They should not be treated any differently than us just because of a difference in sexuality.

And really this nonsense that they are in sin.

Are you not in sin yourself? Judge not lest you be judged.

If we were to go down the list of sins committed, I'm sure heterosexuals would probably have a lot more to show for.

Achronos, we are all sinners.  We are all guilty of sin.

But God has judged homosexuality to be an abomination already.  We can call homosexuality an abomination and a sin.

Sure I sin.... I often sin.  But I try constantly to improve those sins.

A person who admits and accepts they are a homosexual, and believes this is "okay", is a person who will not listen or struggle with their sin.  These are the people who want "acceptance" of their sin.

If I constantly stole things, and wanted to be accepted and unwilling to change/ struggle, it doesn't make it right.

If I constantly lied, and wanted to be accepted and unwilling to change/struggle, it doesn't make it right.
.... Lust, gluttony, laziness, murder, coveter, adulterer ... we could be all these things and STRUGGLE and want to change.... But the moment we say "I am this way and people should accept my sins" then the unwillingness to change or repent of sin is what happens.

Since our God labeled homosexuality as an abomination, and homosexuals want "acceptance" into the scouts, they are unwilling to change their sins.....

Wasn't it said in the scripture to take people with you, try to convince them, and if they don't listen shake the dust from your sandals?

Homosexual behavior God has judged.  They won't listen.  If they were struggling and fighting their sin, trying to do that right thing then that's different.  But they want to be OPENLY homosexual in front of young boys.  "See gay people aren't so bad young men, they make great role models"....
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 03, 2013, 01:51:08 AM
we are discussing homosexual boys, which has a lot more nuances and complexities than you and most of the people here will not give it credit for. Some of these boys may be confused about their sexuality and how they are to engage the world, if they are homosexual.
 

How is this different than any other kid going through puberty?

Do you honestly believe that kicking out your son, who you found out to be gay, is going to get him to change, let alone "repent"?

And really, repent for what exactly? For having a sexual attraction to other males?
 
No one has suggested this even happen.  You folks are the only ones talking about it.  You brought it up.  You…

Yes, actually, in the same way I should repent if I have a sexual attraction to someone other than my wife…and then I avoid her.  Same thing.

I have a sexual attraction to females, but that doesn't mean I sin. And neither do gays.
 
We already talked about this in another thread.  No need to beat a dead horse.

I'll give you that engaging in gay sex is sinful, and one should repent of it (that is if they are Orthodox), but not doing it isn't a sin.
 

So, instead of warning of the dangers of this activity, you think somehow you will prevent it from telling them it’s ok to be homosexual, they were born this way (even though it has never been proven), and to accept themselves as they are?  You really think this is going to help them?  No, it will push them right into homosexual acts.

Someone who is a gay has the same behaviors and feelings as someone who is straight. And we are finding more and more research that shows genetic and hormonal factors linking to homosexuality during the fetal stage in child development. Although I do believe environmental factors should be in consideration as well, but children that are born are more dispositioned to be gay biologically.
 

And just as much to suggest its social environment in origin.

But they are human beings nonetheless. They should not be treated any differently than us just because of a difference in sexuality.
 

How is an eight year old sexual?  By announcing ones sexuality to the world, you by default, set yourself up to be treated differently.  The last time I checked, no one cared and no one wanted to know.  I don’t announce myself to the world.  “Hello!  My name is Kerdy and I am a heterosexual.”  Doesn’t happen.

And really this nonsense that they are in sin.
 

Pondering on the thought is sin, period.  Not nonsense.  They need help, not approval.

Are you not in sin yourself? Judge not lest you be judged.
 

I love this garbage!  I really do.  Who is judging?  No one.  And we all sin, but unfortunately for your argument, this has nothing to do with anything.

If we were to go down the list of sins committed, I'm sure heterosexuals would probably have a lot more to show for.

Probably about the same.  We have been saying this for a long time and ignored.  Funny how you are now saying this as well.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 03, 2013, 01:54:38 AM
And your God's disgusting view on homosexuals might be cured if you had a gay son yourself so that child could suffer hardship to make me feel better by proving a point, but unfortunately that point would fail.
 

And this is a big problem.  Emotions getting in the way of reason.  My son/daughter is homosexual so I will now turn my back on the teachings of the Church to make them feel better about themself.

Not only do you need perspective, you need some decency as well.

What did you say in another post about judging?  Why do the rules never apply universally? ::)
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 03, 2013, 01:55:16 AM
Fr. Seraphim Rose repented.
And how long did that take Peter?
Does it matter?
Answer the question Peter, please.
First I need to know if your question is worth answering.
Number of years please.

1?

5?

10?

15?

How about 28?
Okay, if you won't tell me why answering your question is worth my time, I'm not going to answer. So don't ask me again.
What I'm getting at, Peter, is that we are discussing homosexual boys, which has a lot more nuances and complexities than you and most of the people here will not give it credit for. Some of these boys may be confused about their sexuality and how they are to engage the world, if they are homosexual.
Okay. So why should the Boy Scouts be tasked with helping homosexual boys learn how to engage the world if such teaching requires tacit approval of homosexual relations? Why can other groups not be founded specifically for that purpose? Homosexual relations are not compatible with the mission of the Boy Scouts to make men who are physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight (no pun intended).

Do you honestly believe that kicking out your son, who you found out to be gay, is going to get him to change, let alone "repent"? And really, repent for what exactly? For having a sexual attraction to other males?
So you identify the Boy Scouts kicking a boy out of the Boy Scouts for engaging in homosexual relations as being the same thing as a father kicking his son out of the house for engaging in homosexual relations? The Boy Scouts is a volunteer organization that one can join or leave voluntarily at any time, but a son is born/adopted into a family unit that he can never truly leave for the rest of his life. The analogy you're trying to posit simply doesn't hold water. You're trying to squeeze orange juice out of an apple.

I have a sexual attraction to females, but that doesn't mean I sin. And neither do gays.
You do notice that I keep speaking of homosexual relations? I don't know that merely "being gay" has ever resulted in disqualification from membership in the Boy Scouts, either as a scout or as a leader, but I am aware that engagement in homosexual relations does result in disqualification.

I'll give you that engaging in gay sex is sinful, and one should repent of it (that is if they are Orthodox), but not doing it isn't a sin.

Someone who is a gay has the same behaviors and feelings as someone who is straight. And we are finding more and more research that shows genetic and hormonal factors linking to homosexuality during the fetal stage in child development. Although I do believe environmental factors should be in consideration as well, but I do believe children that are born are more dispositioned to be gay biologically.

But they are human beings nonetheless. They should not be treated any differently than us just because of a difference in sexuality.

And really this nonsense that they are in sin.

Are you not in sin yourself? Judge not lest you be judged.

If we were to go down the list of sins committed, I'm sure heterosexuals would probably have a lot more to show for.
When have I ever voiced on this board my condemnation of anyone merely for being sexually attracted to members of the same sex? Have I not always condemned homosexual relations and only homosexual relations as sinful and immoral?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Basil 320 on February 03, 2013, 02:03:57 AM
This is great; let's let the Boy Scouts succumb to the harassment of those who have evolved to the false impression that homosexuality is now politically correct, and let's destroy this fine and admirable organization, a remnant of a better era, having homos serve as examples to our youth so that they think homosexuality is just another "life style," and not the sick perverse disturbance that it is, scripturally condemned behavior.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 03, 2013, 02:16:00 AM
For the record, as I have already stated my brother is homosexual, other than our father, I was the last one in the family he told.  He didn’t even tell me until I finally just asked him outright.  I asked him why he took so long (other family members knew years prior) and he said it was because I am a political conservative (formerly extremely active) and military disciplined.  I looked at him and asked, “Aren’t you conservative and military disciplined, too?”  I was also a youth minister and he felt, likely as a result of all of his friends, I would disown him.  I looked him in his eyes and said, “You know my views and they will not change, but you are family.  I am not going to disown you because of this.  Of course, there will be basic rules for when you are around my kids, but you are a big boy and must live with the choices you make.”

We never have had a problem because of him being homosexual.  In fact, he thinks most of the rhetoric being spewed from the propaganda machines is stupid.  You see, he thinks for himself.  He is not supportive of homosexual marriage, civil unions yes.  He sees what is going on and he is disgusted.  He ended a very long relationship because his partner couldn’t keep his zipper up and coincidentally, according to him, very few can.  He gets tired of being asked for a romp in the sack on a first meeting and the list goes on, so I know just how snug the stereotypes actually do fit.  In large, this community is extremely shallow.  I get most of my questions answered from him and other friends I have.  

Childish antics, circular argumentation and stupid accusations being tossed around only make the ones posting them look foolish, not the ones they hurl the insults at, them.  I don’t suggest you step back and look at the big picture.  I suggest you put the car in reverse and back up several miles before you look at the big picture.  Seeing what is directly in front of you and nothing more is a dangerous way to live.

Oh, and my brother was a Scout.  I got to attend with him, but I never joined.  We were poor and couldn’t afford it, so they let me hang with my big bro.  I remember the race cars well.  And green carpet.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 03, 2013, 02:46:26 AM
The Church allowed Fr. Seraphim Rose to be a monk, and he struggled until his last breathe to fight homosexual sins. But that is who he was, a homosexual.

Incorrect.  He was Orthodox, a Christian, a monk, a child of God. 

Those who use sexuality to identify who they are have some serious problems. 
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Shiny on February 03, 2013, 02:53:56 AM
The Church allowed Fr. Seraphim Rose to be a monk, and he struggled until his last breathe to fight homosexual sins. But that is who he was, a homosexual.

Incorrect.  He was Orthodox, a Christian, a monk, a child of God. 

But still a homosexual.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: JamesRottnek on February 03, 2013, 03:18:33 AM
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.

Oh well certainly (and I'd go ahead and add Yesh to that too, seeing as how his motto is "Make 'em homeless; make 'em straight")!

There you go attributing words which a person has not said.  You do realize by using “  “, you are supposed to be quoting from someone.  If they, in fact, did not say what you quote, you are being dishonest.  I can’t speak for Charles, but I know I have never mentioned these words in this context.  I am not surprise, though; this appears to be your discipline of argumentation.  Just say hateful things.

Kerdy, Yesh actually did say he would kick a gay son out of his home.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: JamesRottnek on February 03, 2013, 03:20:25 AM
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.

Oh well certainly (and I'd go ahead and add Yesh to that too, seeing as how his motto is "Make 'em homeless; make 'em straight")!

There you go attributing words which a person has not said.  You do realize by using “  “, you are supposed to be quoting from someone.  If they, in fact, did not say what you quote, you are being dishonest.  I can’t speak for Charles, but I know I have never mentioned these words in this context.  I am not surprise, though; this appears to be your discipline of argumentation.  Just say hateful things.
What? I'd make one of my own children "Homeless" to prove a point? Absolutely not!

What the hell is wrong with some of these posters on here to make some of the statements like this?

Oh right, I know......that "mental disorder" thing.

Good luck with that.

Just a bit for clarification: James was not talking about you, rather James, in his use of the pronoun "his", was referring to yeah, whom has, in fact, said this. He was adding onto his "list" of people he wishes would have gay(the word I will be using, feel free to change it to homosexual if it makes you feel better) children, which consists of kerry, and yes, you, and now yesh onto that list.

Actually I was saying I would feel very badly for the child of any of them, if they were gay.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 03, 2013, 03:27:53 AM
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.

Oh well certainly (and I'd go ahead and add Yesh to that too, seeing as how his motto is "Make 'em homeless; make 'em straight")!

There you go attributing words which a person has not said.  You do realize by using “  “, you are supposed to be quoting from someone.  If they, in fact, did not say what you quote, you are being dishonest.  I can’t speak for Charles, but I know I have never mentioned these words in this context.  I am not surprise, though; this appears to be your discipline of argumentation.  Just say hateful things.

Kerdy, Yesh actually did say he would kick a gay son out of his home.
When did he say this? Can you quote the post?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: JamesRottnek on February 03, 2013, 03:28:12 AM
For the record, as I have already stated my brother is homosexual, other than our father, I was the last one in the family he told.  He didn’t even tell me until I finally just asked him outright.  I asked him why he took so long (other family members knew years prior) and he said it was because I am a political conservative (formerly extremely active) and military disciplined.  I looked at him and asked, “Aren’t you conservative and military disciplined, too?”  I was also a youth minister and he felt, likely as a result of all of his friends, I would disown him.  I looked him in his eyes and said, “You know my views and they will not change, but you are family.  I am not going to disown you because of this.  Of course, there will be basic rules for when you are around my kids, but you are a big boy and must live with the choices you make.”

We never have had a problem because of him being homosexual.  In fact, he thinks most of the rhetoric being spewed from the propaganda machines is stupid.  You see, he thinks for himself.  He is not supportive of homosexual marriage, civil unions yes.  He sees what is going on and he is disgusted.  He ended a very long relationship because his partner couldn’t keep his zipper up and coincidentally, according to him, very few can.  He gets tired of being asked for a romp in the sack on a first meeting and the list goes on, so I know just how snug the stereotypes actually do fit.  In large, this community is extremely shallow.  I get most of my questions answered from him and other friends I have.  

Childish antics, circular argumentation and stupid accusations being tossed around only make the ones posting them look foolish, not the ones they hurl the insults at, them.  I don’t suggest you step back and look at the big picture.  I suggest you put the car in reverse and back up several miles before you look at the big picture.  Seeing what is directly in front of you and nothing more is a dangerous way to live.

Oh, and my brother was a Scout.  I got to attend with him, but I never joined.  We were poor and couldn’t afford it, so they let me hang with my big bro.  I remember the race cars well.  And green carpet.


The gays you know are definitely nothing like the gays I know.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: JamesRottnek on February 03, 2013, 03:29:11 AM
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.

Oh well certainly (and I'd go ahead and add Yesh to that too, seeing as how his motto is "Make 'em homeless; make 'em straight")!

There you go attributing words which a person has not said.  You do realize by using “  “, you are supposed to be quoting from someone.  If they, in fact, did not say what you quote, you are being dishonest.  I can’t speak for Charles, but I know I have never mentioned these words in this context.  I am not surprise, though; this appears to be your discipline of argumentation.  Just say hateful things.

Kerdy, Yesh actually did say he would kick a gay son out of his home.
When did he say this? Can you quote the post?

I could if I was willing to take the time to go through all of Yesh's posts so I can find the post I'm thinking of - but I'm sure many members of the board will back up the fact that Yesh said that.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 03, 2013, 04:05:51 AM
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.

Oh well certainly (and I'd go ahead and add Yesh to that too, seeing as how his motto is "Make 'em homeless; make 'em straight")!

There you go attributing words which a person has not said.  You do realize by using “  “, you are supposed to be quoting from someone.  If they, in fact, did not say what you quote, you are being dishonest.  I can’t speak for Charles, but I know I have never mentioned these words in this context.  I am not surprise, though; this appears to be your discipline of argumentation.  Just say hateful things.

Kerdy, Yesh actually did say he would kick a gay son out of his home.
When did he say this? Can you quote the post?

I could if I was willing to take the time to go through all of Yesh's posts so I can find the post I'm thinking of -
If you can't prove it, he didn't say it.

but I'm sure many members of the board will back up the fact that Yesh said that.
Then let them speak for themselves. If they can't prove it, he didn't say it.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: ialmisry on February 03, 2013, 04:11:27 AM
I don't recall atheists being much kinder about gays.  I grew up in an atheistic home, none of my friends went to church, and gays were spoken of in far worse terms than I've ever heard in Orthodox circles.

In fact, homosexuality was frowned upon in the Soviet Union as I recall.  Something about 'social deviancy.' 

Romania under communism was no funland for gays... http://goqnotes.com/editorial/editorsnote_060905.html (http://goqnotes.com/editorial/editorsnote_060905.html)



Even if you Ch. Martel wouldn't make your children homeless to prove a point that happens all the time to gay kids with religious parents . I live in a neighborhood whre I see them often also read in the local press and even  talked to some a few times.
happens to gay kids with non-religious parents.

I know some kids thrown out by their parents for getting religion.  Do they count?

Don't confuse the issue with facts, Father.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: ialmisry on February 03, 2013, 04:27:47 AM
I don't recall atheists being much kinder about gays.  I grew up in an atheistic home, none of my friends went to church, and gays were spoken of in far worse terms than I've ever heard in Orthodox circles.

In fact, homosexuality was frowned upon in the Soviet Union as I recall.  Something about 'social deviancy.' 

Romania under communism was no funland for gays... http://goqnotes.com/editorial/editorsnote_060905.html (http://goqnotes.com/editorial/editorsnote_060905.html)



Even if you Ch. Martel wouldn't make your children homeless to prove a point that happens all the time to gay kids with religious parents . I live in a neighborhood whre I see them often also read in the local press and even  talked to some a few times.
happens to gay kids with non-religious parents.

I know some kids thrown out by their parents for getting religion.  Do they count?
nice spin reverend father, but we know that. the point is that in urban or suburban america the more a certain family is invested into a certain type of religion (not mainline episcopalian)  the greater the possibility would be they have a more disapproving view of homosexuality, whereas I think the level of disapproval would be significantly lower in more secularized households. of course there are exceptions but I think this are the dynamics today.
No spin.  Just facts.  Your unfamiliarity with the concept is what is throwing you.  Or perhaps your rosy, magical thinking on the progressives.  As father pointed out, your communists were certainly no friend to the homosexuals.

I am surprised that you admit that there are Evangelicals (or were you talking about the Orthodox, or followers of the Vatican?) living in the cities and suburbs of America.  I would have thought that you would dismiss them all as Southern hicks and country bumpkins.

One might think that the dynamics today would make lesbians approve of homosexuality, and make homosexuals approve of lesbianism.  Talk to one about the other, however, and in fact few disapprove of homosexuality more than lesbians, and few disapprove of lesbianism than homosexuals.

btw, you might be shocked by how intolerant a good liberal family can be when caught with the issue at home.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 03, 2013, 04:56:18 AM
The Church allowed Fr. Seraphim Rose to be a monk, and he struggled until his last breathe to fight homosexual sins. But that is who he was, a homosexual.

Incorrect.  He was Orthodox, a Christian, a monk, a child of God. 

But still a homosexual.

Those who identify by sexuality have serious issues.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 03, 2013, 04:58:39 AM
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.

Oh well certainly (and I'd go ahead and add Yesh to that too, seeing as how his motto is "Make 'em homeless; make 'em straight")!

There you go attributing words which a person has not said.  You do realize by using “  “, you are supposed to be quoting from someone.  If they, in fact, did not say what you quote, you are being dishonest.  I can’t speak for Charles, but I know I have never mentioned these words in this context.  I am not surprise, though; this appears to be your discipline of argumentation.  Just say hateful things.

Kerdy, Yesh actually did say he would kick a gay son out of his home.

If this is indeed the case, I stand humbly corrected.  I just figured who Yesh (shortened) is.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Ioannis Climacus on February 03, 2013, 04:59:55 AM
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.

Oh well certainly (and I'd go ahead and add Yesh to that too, seeing as how his motto is "Make 'em homeless; make 'em straight")!

There you go attributing words which a person has not said.  You do realize by using “  “, you are supposed to be quoting from someone.  If they, in fact, did not say what you quote, you are being dishonest.  I can’t speak for Charles, but I know I have never mentioned these words in this context.  I am not surprise, though; this appears to be your discipline of argumentation.  Just say hateful things.

Kerdy, Yesh actually did say he would kick a gay son out of his home.
When did he say this? Can you quote the post?

I could if I was willing to take the time to go through all of Yesh's posts so I can find the post I'm thinking of -
If you can't prove it, he didn't say it.

but I'm sure many members of the board will back up the fact that Yesh said that.
Then let them speak for themselves. If they can't prove it, he didn't say it.
Here :

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,48289.msg842692.html#msg842692

"7) It sainted men who had horrendous backgrounds as military leaders, and sons that slept with their own wife (mother).  This would be Constantine, the supposed former sun worshipper.  Oh, this saint executed his own son and wife btw.  But he's still a saint and all.  I mean, woe is me who would kick a son out for being gay...  Perhaps the venerated saint who executed his son holds the Orthodox fancy more.  This is also the caller of Nicea.  Who Eusebius next to kissed his rump... "Oh glorious Constantine, shining in jewels....".  Of course Constantine skipped the part where Christians don't wear costly clothing.. (Byzantine king duds anybody?  aka priests & bishops vestments)"

Emphasis mine.

EDIT : I probably have way too much free time if I am fact checking for you people. :)
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 03, 2013, 05:00:01 AM
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.

Oh well certainly (and I'd go ahead and add Yesh to that too, seeing as how his motto is "Make 'em homeless; make 'em straight")!

There you go attributing words which a person has not said.  You do realize by using “  “, you are supposed to be quoting from someone.  If they, in fact, did not say what you quote, you are being dishonest.  I can’t speak for Charles, but I know I have never mentioned these words in this context.  I am not surprise, though; this appears to be your discipline of argumentation.  Just say hateful things.
What? I'd make one of my own children "Homeless" to prove a point? Absolutely not!

What the hell is wrong with some of these posters on here to make some of the statements like this?

Oh right, I know......that "mental disorder" thing.

Good luck with that.

Just a bit for clarification: James was not talking about you, rather James, in his use of the pronoun "his", was referring to yeah, whom has, in fact, said this. He was adding onto his "list" of people he wishes would have gay(the word I will be using, feel free to change it to homosexual if it makes you feel better) children, which consists of kerry, and yes, you, and now yesh onto that list.

Actually I was saying I would feel very badly for the child of any of them, if they were gay.

But, why?  For the same reason I wouldn't purchase condomns for a heterosexual son or daughter?  Not purchase marijuana for them to smoke?  Not purchase alcohol for them to drink?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 03, 2013, 05:03:02 AM
For the record, as I have already stated my brother is homosexual, other than our father, I was the last one in the family he told.  He didn’t even tell me until I finally just asked him outright.  I asked him why he took so long (other family members knew years prior) and he said it was because I am a political conservative (formerly extremely active) and military disciplined.  I looked at him and asked, “Aren’t you conservative and military disciplined, too?”  I was also a youth minister and he felt, likely as a result of all of his friends, I would disown him.  I looked him in his eyes and said, “You know my views and they will not change, but you are family.  I am not going to disown you because of this.  Of course, there will be basic rules for when you are around my kids, but you are a big boy and must live with the choices you make.”

We never have had a problem because of him being homosexual.  In fact, he thinks most of the rhetoric being spewed from the propaganda machines is stupid.  You see, he thinks for himself.  He is not supportive of homosexual marriage, civil unions yes.  He sees what is going on and he is disgusted.  He ended a very long relationship because his partner couldn’t keep his zipper up and coincidentally, according to him, very few can.  He gets tired of being asked for a romp in the sack on a first meeting and the list goes on, so I know just how snug the stereotypes actually do fit.  In large, this community is extremely shallow.  I get most of my questions answered from him and other friends I have.  

Childish antics, circular argumentation and stupid accusations being tossed around only make the ones posting them look foolish, not the ones they hurl the insults at, them.  I don’t suggest you step back and look at the big picture.  I suggest you put the car in reverse and back up several miles before you look at the big picture.  Seeing what is directly in front of you and nothing more is a dangerous way to live.

Oh, and my brother was a Scout.  I got to attend with him, but I never joined.  We were poor and couldn’t afford it, so they let me hang with my big bro.  I remember the race cars well.  And green carpet.


The gays you know are definitely nothing like the gays I know.

All I can say is I pick my friends very carefully.  My friendships are based on character, personality, their ability to problem solve and independently think.  It doesn’t matter who they are if they are uncivil. 
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: That person on February 03, 2013, 09:36:31 AM


Ideally,  Kerdy's point would be expressed without any posts at all.

Well, just bless your little heart.

Those from the south understand.
There are condescending people in the Midwest too.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 03, 2013, 11:38:51 AM
I don't recall atheists being much kinder about gays.  I grew up in an atheistic home, none of my friends went to church, and gays were spoken of in far worse terms than I've ever heard in Orthodox circles.

In fact, homosexuality was frowned upon in the Soviet Union as I recall.  Something about 'social deviancy.' 

Romania under communism was no funland for gays... http://goqnotes.com/editorial/editorsnote_060905.html (http://goqnotes.com/editorial/editorsnote_060905.html)



Even if you Ch. Martel wouldn't make your children homeless to prove a point that happens all the time to gay kids with religious parents . I live in a neighborhood whre I see them often also read in the local press and even  talked to some a few times.
happens to gay kids with non-religious parents.

I know some kids thrown out by their parents for getting religion.  Do they count?
nice spin reverend father, but we know that. the point is that in urban or suburban america the more a certain family is invested into a certain type of religion (not mainline episcopalian)  the greater the possibility would be they have a more disapproving view of homosexuality, whereas I think the level of disapproval would be significantly lower in more secularized households. of course there are exceptions but I think this are the dynamics today.
You think, but you don't know. That's the problem.

Go ahead and live in the world of might be if you want. The rest of us will continue to live in the world of what is.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Charles Martel on February 03, 2013, 02:45:00 PM
Even if you Ch. Martel wouldn't make your children homeless to prove a point that happens all the time to gay kids with religious parents . I live in a neighborhood whre I see them often also read in the local press and even  talked to some a few times.
I have never seen one.

But I have seen a few devout Christian parents heartbroken by a child's choice to be rebellious against everything they tried lovingly to teach them.And even then, they still choose to leave on their own because the parents will not condone their "lifestyle" under their roof.

I have also seen more than my share of non-religious fathers verbally, psychologically and physically abuse that "queer" for a son.

I don't understand why it's always the people with Faith that get the bad rap when it comes to this homosexual issue.


Well you just kinda proved my point. How would condoning the"lifestyle" under your loving Christian roof look like hypothetically of course?
Hypothetically? Well for instance, if you brought your "boyfriend" home and tried to act as a "couple" in front of me while you expect me to say nothing or just nod and smile in lovingly approval.

That will never happen in my house, I don't care who you are.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Charles Martel on February 03, 2013, 02:46:28 PM
The Church allowed Fr. Seraphim Rose to be a monk, and he struggled until his last breathe to fight homosexual sins. But that is who he was, a homosexual.

Incorrect.  He was Orthodox, a Christian, a monk, a child of God. 

But still a homosexual.

Those who identify by sexuality have serious issues.
You can start with mental illness.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Charles Martel on February 03, 2013, 02:47:43 PM
I read this thread again and it is heartbreaking!  I wonder at what other point in history Christianity was faced with the same or similar infections it currently experiences.  I wonder because I need something to cling to as I see it dissolve away, all over the world, into a watered down unpottable source of drinking water.  How did this happen?  How did we allow it to become this way?  Where are the people seeking the face of God with a desire to live for Him and die to self?  How did this happen to the Apostolic Church?  I spent years searching to get away from this vile contaminant only to see its festering presence here.  I grow weary of the fight.  My heart weeps for the souls of humanity charging forward into the abyss, while they cheer for their ultimate destruction and there is nothing I can do to slow their sprint, much less stop them.  I remember the days gone by when I was bitter toward foolishness, ready to fight the good fight.  Now I am saddened knowing they carry forth of their own choice, not due to ignorance but due to foolishness.  My heart breaks, not for me, rather for them and all I can do is pray is watch.
What on earth is this? Cut the sanctimony.

Really I hope you have boys that are gay so you can get some perspective. You need it.

The level of discrimination and hatred shown in this thread is vile and repulsive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

And BTW, Kerdy, "to get away from the wile contaminant", Christ did the opposite. He sat with them.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
You whine and moan about "hatred" yet you attack back with the same verocity and indignation.

You hope he has homosexual children? Really?

You illiberals are truly a nasty lot.

I think that talk radio guy is right, liberalism is definitely a "mental disorder".

What is so bad about having gay children?

The idea of a gay child having Kerdy (or Charles Martel for that matter) as a father makes me a bit sad.

Oh well certainly (and I'd go ahead and add Yesh to that too, seeing as how his motto is "Make 'em homeless; make 'em straight")!

There you go attributing words which a person has not said.  You do realize by using “  “, you are supposed to be quoting from someone.  If they, in fact, did not say what you quote, you are being dishonest.  I can’t speak for Charles, but I know I have never mentioned these words in this context.  I am not surprise, though; this appears to be your discipline of argumentation.  Just say hateful things.
What? I'd make one of my own children "Homeless" to prove a point? Absolutely not!

What the hell is wrong with some of these posters on here to make some of the statements like this?

Oh right, I know......that "mental disorder" thing.

Good luck with that.

Just a bit for clarification: James was not talking about you, rather James, in his use of the pronoun "his", was referring to yeah, whom has, in fact, said this. He was adding onto his "list" of people he wishes would have gay(the word I will be using, feel free to change it to homosexual if it makes you feel better) children, which consists of kerry, and yes, you, and now yesh onto that list.

Actually I was saying I would feel very badly for the child of any of them, if they were gay.
I feel bad for you.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: JamesR on February 03, 2013, 04:57:37 PM
You never see atheist parents rejecting their children because of their sexuality and/or religious beliefs, whereas religious parents do...
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: William on February 03, 2013, 04:58:07 PM
You never see atheist parents rejecting their children because of their sexuality and/or religious beliefs, whereas religious parents do...

Yeah you do.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Peter J on February 03, 2013, 05:01:49 PM
We could also add that Muslims aren't very tolerant of homosexuals. However, I'm at a loss to see what point you and Isa are making.  ???

Presumably, we can all agree that "Atheists and Muslims do it" doesn't make it okay.

I don't recall atheists being much kinder about gays.  I grew up in an atheistic home, none of my friends went to church, and gays were spoken of in far worse terms than I've ever heard in Orthodox circles.

In fact, homosexuality was frowned upon in the Soviet Union as I recall.  Something about 'social deviancy.' 

Romania under communism was no funland for gays... http://goqnotes.com/editorial/editorsnote_060905.html (http://goqnotes.com/editorial/editorsnote_060905.html)



Even if you Ch. Martel wouldn't make your children homeless to prove a point that happens all the time to gay kids with religious parents . I live in a neighborhood whre I see them often also read in the local press and even  talked to some a few times.
happens to gay kids with non-religious parents.

I know some kids thrown out by their parents for getting religion.  Do they count?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Peter J on February 03, 2013, 05:02:25 PM
to wish hardshipof another person, especially a child.
Oh and this.

So now a gay child is a hardship? You have got to be kidding me. You want to kick them out of their home for it too? Give them enough money to catch a bus? Because heaven forbid your hardship make it so difficult for you.

Oh hey son, you are gay? Get out of my house, and I don't care if you aren't having sex.

This is exactly why I suggested it.

Thank you for showing what kind of heart you have, or lack thereof.
Thank you for showing how little time you actually spend reading others' posts. Even I can see that you show absolutely no comprehension of what Kerdy just said.
No I comprehended it very clearly.

For context:
Quote
What was said was contemptible in nature and no different than saying you wish someone would have a child becomes addicted to drugs, becomes a prostitute, an alcoholic or any other sin which takes control of their life.

So now having a gay son is a hardship on the parent. Which is as he says here:

Quote
to wish hardship of another person, especially a child.

Since when did the Church denounce a person of their sexuality? The Church allowed Fr. Seraphim Rose to be a monk, and he struggled until his last breathe to fight homosexual sins. But that is who he was, a homosexual.

What happened to hating the sin and loving the person?

And how is being homosexual a sin in of itself?

I think you read a little bit more into Kerdy's post than was actually there -- which is unfortunate, because it was a bad enough post without reading any more into it (no offense Kerdy).
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: dzheremi on February 03, 2013, 05:12:46 PM
You never see atheist parents rejecting their children because of their sexuality and/or religious beliefs, whereas religious parents do...

Yeah you do.

Absolutely.

I find it weird that secularist arguments that rely on stereotypes of how religious people are and what they do are being used by religious people against religious people on a religious message board.

I would make a comment about "strange bedfellows" here, but somehow I don't think this is the thread for it.  :angel:
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: JamesR on February 03, 2013, 05:14:50 PM
I've never seen an atheist parent reject their kid based on something like beliefs on sexuality. On the other hand, what I have observed among them is that they don't teach their kids crap, because in their eyes, expressing authority automatically equals abuse. That's why their kids are always misbehaved, but emotionally healthy. Whereas, religious kids are always well behaved, but then emotionally unstable during adulthood needing therapy.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: dzheremi on February 03, 2013, 05:32:13 PM
That's why their kids are always misbehaved, but emotionally healthy. Whereas, religious kids are always well behaved, but then emotionally unstable during adulthood needing therapy.

Without broaching what "always misbehaved, but emotionally healthy" could possibly mean, isn't it inadvisable to make such sweeping generalizations about people based on the religious outlook of their parents? The vast majority of agnostically or atheistically-minded people I know were raised in at least passively religious environments (several actively religious, as well), and came to reject or at least be ambivalent about religion later in life, without the aid or complication of therapy.

And my best friend in junior high/high school experimented for some of that time with homosexuality and bisexuality. He was raised in an atheistic household, but always hiding his curiosity from his family because his parents were very openly anti-homosexual, and his father's views in particular had a big impact on his younger brother in their former years, making for a very toxic environment. My friend ended up on the street off an on from about age 16 to 20 due to mental illness issues aggravated (he said some of his therapists said "brought on") by the stress of trying to be okay with some of what he was doing/feeling at the time while his family's message that it was definitely not okay (I can't use the words I heard in good conscience, but I remember being with his family at several times as a teenager when his father and/or younger brother would go off on how gross/immoral/worthy of terrible things homosexuals are, completely oblivious to the effect this was having on him). He's been happily, heterosexually married for years now, so it's most likely that this was a teenage phase/confusion, but I know that he's never forgotten this period of his life and the effect it had on him. As his friend, I haven't either. (This is one of the many, many reasons I do not accept the presumption of some people on the internet that if you are against the forced acceptance of homosexuality/the criminalization of traditional Christian teachings on homosexuality, that means you hate homosexuals or want them to die or whatever...I was unaware that I secretly wanted my best friend to die during all the years that I spent taking collect calls from him while he was on the street or in various mental hospitals, and the many years since then, during which I have never, ever stopped being his friend and supporting him...)
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Shiny on February 03, 2013, 06:01:12 PM
I think you read a little bit more into Kerdy's post than was actually there -- which is unfortunate, because it was a bad enough post without reading any more into it (no offense Kerdy).
Maybe so, but if the shoe fits.

Not worth arguing anymore
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Shiny on February 03, 2013, 06:03:08 PM
You never see atheist parents rejecting their children because of their sexuality and/or religious beliefs, whereas religious parents do...
I would go a step further and say religious parents have a much more inclination to reject their gay children based on religion rather than if they are irreligious.

I know two close friends of mine who were scorned because they are gay, and it had everything to do with religion
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 03, 2013, 08:54:13 PM


Ideally,  Kerdy's point would be expressed without any posts at all.

Well, just bless your little heart.

Those from the south understand.
There are condescending people in the Midwest too.
Are you from the Midwest?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 03, 2013, 08:56:24 PM
You never see atheist parents rejecting their children because of their sexuality and/or religious beliefs, whereas religious parents do...
Yes, yes you absolutely do!
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 03, 2013, 08:57:35 PM
to wish hardshipof another person, especially a child.
Oh and this.

So now a gay child is a hardship? You have got to be kidding me. You want to kick them out of their home for it too? Give them enough money to catch a bus? Because heaven forbid your hardship make it so difficult for you.

Oh hey son, you are gay? Get out of my house, and I don't care if you aren't having sex.

This is exactly why I suggested it.

Thank you for showing what kind of heart you have, or lack thereof.
Thank you for showing how little time you actually spend reading others' posts. Even I can see that you show absolutely no comprehension of what Kerdy just said.
No I comprehended it very clearly.

For context:
Quote
What was said was contemptible in nature and no different than saying you wish someone would have a child becomes addicted to drugs, becomes a prostitute, an alcoholic or any other sin which takes control of their life.

So now having a gay son is a hardship on the parent. Which is as he says here:

Quote
to wish hardship of another person, especially a child.

Since when did the Church denounce a person of their sexuality? The Church allowed Fr. Seraphim Rose to be a monk, and he struggled until his last breathe to fight homosexual sins. But that is who he was, a homosexual.

What happened to hating the sin and loving the person?

And how is being homosexual a sin in of itself?

I think you read a little bit more into Kerdy's post than was actually there -- which is unfortunate, because it was a bad enough post without reading any more into it (no offense Kerdy).
And yet, you didn't explain how I was wrong.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 03, 2013, 08:58:59 PM
I've never seen ...
...a world of stuff, yet.  But you will.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 03, 2013, 09:12:48 PM
I think you read a little bit more into Kerdy's post than was actually there -- which is unfortunate, because it was a bad enough post without reading any more into it (no offense Kerdy).
Maybe so, but if the shoe fits.

Not worth arguing anymore
What you still have not learned is everything you are saying is your personal opinion and in direct conflict with Christianity and Orthodoxy.  You don't stop to think of the long term results of what you do, you only consider the short term.  You , understandably, care for a persons feelings and the pain the experience, but in the process you seem to forget about their eternity.  Stop for a moment and actually consider what is being said rather than react emotionally.  You KNOW none of us want anyone to die, suffer or any of that, but your opinion won't allow you to accept this fact.  It isn't just homosexuality you do this with, it's several things.  For instance, I have spent my entire adult life working to help others, many times at my or my families expense, but you toss accusations around contrary to my actual life as if they had meaning, which they do not.  But if you knew how many sexual assault investigations (male on male) I had done, you may think differently.  Just saying.  You attempt to make it about us hating the person instead if teaching and repeating what God has already said, and you are wrong.  People hurt, we try to help, but we don't lie about stuff in the process.  We tell them the truth, guide them toward Jesus, and pray for and with them for deliverance of their afflictions.  We all have our sins, problems and shortcomings.  I ask you stop rationalizing sinful acts away and stop promoting the acceptance of sinful fleshly desires, because long term, it hurts them much more than the truth today.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 03, 2013, 09:35:42 PM
I would go a step further and say religious parents have a much more inclination to reject their gay children based on religion rather than if they are irreligious.
 
I suspect you believe rejection of homosexuality and rejection of the child is the same thing.  It is not.  But I will not argue, because then I would be wrong, that some people do reject the child and that is a tragedy.  The only time a person should be rejected due to their sexual desires is when they refuse to fight against the flesh, as we all must do, and demand acceptance.  At this point, they have turned away from God and toward them and the only thing at this point we can do is pray for them.  For instance, do you think an Orthodox priest would ignore two grown men or women holding hands in church and kissing each other?  No, he would tell them to stop or not come back, as he should.  He also would not allow communion until they went to confession and asked God’s forgiveness of their sins, as he should.   Is he being a hater or being a servant of God?

But yes, those few parents who immediately kick their kids out of the house for saying they are attracted to the same sex are wrong.  A parent’s job is to help their child as best as they can, regardless of the sin they practice.  If the child is older and rebels violently against the parent, that is different and I would remove them from the home as well.  Not allowing their boy/girlfriend over, on the phone, on the internet, etc., is not hate, its parenting.  I do not know if you have children and if you do how old they are, but most parents understand this concept very well.

To answer your question, what would I do if one of my children said they were homosexual, I would do everything humanly possible to help them overcome their sinful desires while letting them know I love them unconditionally.  To follow up with what I was talking about with my brother…he wanted to visit when he was still with the aforementioned partner.  I told him they were both welcome, as long as they slept separately and didn’t display any action which would confuse my children.  They both, of course, agreed and we had no issues.  It isn’t about hate, and you well know this.  It’s about right and wrong.  Nothing more.

I know two close friends of mine who were scorned because they are gay, and it had everything to do with religion
Scorned?  This isn’t very specific.  Being belittled is one thing, but being told they are wrong in their wants of the flesh is entirely another thing.  Remove the word “homosexual” and replace it with any other unacceptable behavior and see if your argument holds.  Adultery, fornication, drug use, alcoholism, sexual desires for children or animals, worship of money or any other false idol to include ones one person, pornography, etc.  The same argument does not hold, so why the exception to what people want to believe is ok, but know it’s not?  
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: That person on February 03, 2013, 11:49:28 PM


Ideally,  Kerdy's point would be expressed without any posts at all.

Well, just bless your little heart.

Those from the south understand.
There are condescending people in the Midwest too.
Are you from the Midwest?
Aggressively so. I always ask waiters what kind of pop (not soda or coke or any such nonesense) just to drive that point home. Ideally,  I'm wearing some Bengals merchandise while I do so.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Peter J on February 03, 2013, 11:54:53 PM
to wish hardshipof another person, especially a child.
Oh and this.

So now a gay child is a hardship? You have got to be kidding me. You want to kick them out of their home for it too? Give them enough money to catch a bus? Because heaven forbid your hardship make it so difficult for you.

Oh hey son, you are gay? Get out of my house, and I don't care if you aren't having sex.

This is exactly why I suggested it.

Thank you for showing what kind of heart you have, or lack thereof.
Thank you for showing how little time you actually spend reading others' posts. Even I can see that you show absolutely no comprehension of what Kerdy just said.
No I comprehended it very clearly.

For context:
Quote
What was said was contemptible in nature and no different than saying you wish someone would have a child becomes addicted to drugs, becomes a prostitute, an alcoholic or any other sin which takes control of their life.

So now having a gay son is a hardship on the parent. Which is as he says here:

Quote
to wish hardship of another person, especially a child.

Since when did the Church denounce a person of their sexuality? The Church allowed Fr. Seraphim Rose to be a monk, and he struggled until his last breathe to fight homosexual sins. But that is who he was, a homosexual.

What happened to hating the sin and loving the person?

And how is being homosexual a sin in of itself?

I think you read a little bit more into Kerdy's post than was actually there -- which is unfortunate, because it was a bad enough post without reading any more into it (no offense Kerdy).
And yet, you didn't explain how I was wrong.

True. Actually, I haven't really decided if I should get into it or just let it speak for itself.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Peter J on February 03, 2013, 11:55:54 PM
You never see atheist parents rejecting their children because of their sexuality and/or religious beliefs, whereas religious parents do...
I would go a step further and say religious parents have a much more inclination to reject their gay children based on religion rather than if they are irreligious.

I know two close friends of mine who were scorned because they are gay, and it had everything to do with religion

Well, I tend to think that Isa and Father were right to say that there are some atheists (communists in particular) who are/were quite intolerant of homosexuals. I just can't figure out what point they were trying to make. Seriously: if atheists do X, does that somehow prove that X is the right thing to do? ?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 04, 2013, 12:10:05 AM
to wish hardshipof another person, especially a child.
Oh and this.

So now a gay child is a hardship? You have got to be kidding me. You want to kick them out of their home for it too? Give them enough money to catch a bus? Because heaven forbid your hardship make it so difficult for you.

Oh hey son, you are gay? Get out of my house, and I don't care if you aren't having sex.

This is exactly why I suggested it.

Thank you for showing what kind of heart you have, or lack thereof.
Thank you for showing how little time you actually spend reading others' posts. Even I can see that you show absolutely no comprehension of what Kerdy just said.
No I comprehended it very clearly.

For context:
Quote
What was said was contemptible in nature and no different than saying you wish someone would have a child becomes addicted to drugs, becomes a prostitute, an alcoholic or any other sin which takes control of their life.

So now having a gay son is a hardship on the parent. Which is as he says here:

Quote
to wish hardship of another person, especially a child.

Since when did the Church denounce a person of their sexuality? The Church allowed Fr. Seraphim Rose to be a monk, and he struggled until his last breathe to fight homosexual sins. But that is who he was, a homosexual.

What happened to hating the sin and loving the person?

And how is being homosexual a sin in of itself?

I think you read a little bit more into Kerdy's post than was actually there -- which is unfortunate, because it was a bad enough post without reading any more into it (no offense Kerdy).
And yet, you didn't explain how I was wrong.

True. Actually, I haven't really decided if I should get into it or just let it speak for itself.
By all means, get into it.  Others seem to have no problem reading things into what I say which are untrue. 
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Peter J on February 04, 2013, 12:11:29 AM
If you can't prove it, he didn't say it.
?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 04, 2013, 12:13:35 AM
You never see atheist parents rejecting their children because of their sexuality and/or religious beliefs, whereas religious parents do...
I would go a step further and say religious parents have a much more inclination to reject their gay children based on religion rather than if they are irreligious.

I know two close friends of mine who were scorned because they are gay, and it had everything to do with religion

Well, I tend to think that Isa and Father were right to say that there are some atheists (communists in particular) who are/were quite intolerant of homosexuals. I just can't figure out what point they were trying to make. Seriously: if atheists do X, does that somehow prove that X is the right thing to do? ?
One of their points is simple.  Religion is not the main factor in being hateful to homosexuals and to say it is would be dishonest.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: JamesRottnek on February 04, 2013, 12:14:14 AM
That's why their kids are always misbehaved, but emotionally healthy. Whereas, religious kids are always well behaved, but then emotionally unstable during adulthood needing therapy.

Without broaching what "always misbehaved, but emotionally healthy" could possibly mean, isn't it inadvisable to make such sweeping generalizations about people based on the religious outlook of their parents? The vast majority of agnostically or atheistically-minded people I know were raised in at least passively religious environments (several actively religious, as well), and came to reject or at least be ambivalent about religion later in life, without the aid or complication of therapy.

And my best friend in junior high/high school experimented for some of that time with homosexuality and bisexuality. He was raised in an atheistic household, but always hiding his curiosity from his family because his parents were very openly anti-homosexual, and his father's views in particular had a big impact on his younger brother in their former years, making for a very toxic environment. My friend ended up on the street off an on from about age 16 to 20 due to mental illness issues aggravated (he said some of his therapists said "brought on") by the stress of trying to be okay with some of what he was doing/feeling at the time while his family's message that it was definitely not okay (I can't use the words I heard in good conscience, but I remember being with his family at several times as a teenager when his father and/or younger brother would go off on how gross/immoral/worthy of terrible things homosexuals are, completely oblivious to the effect this was having on him). He's been happily, heterosexually married for years now, so it's most likely that this was a teenage phase/confusion, but I know that he's never forgotten this period of his life and the effect it had on him. As his friend, I haven't either. (This is one of the many, many reasons I do not accept the presumption of some people on the internet that if you are against the forced acceptance of homosexuality/the criminalization of traditional Christian teachings on homosexuality, that means you hate homosexuals or want them to die or whatever...I was unaware that I secretly wanted my best friend to die during all the years that I spent taking collect calls from him while he was on the street or in various mental hospitals, and the many years since then, during which I have never, ever stopped being his friend and supporting him...)

Actually, it is quite possible he is bisexual.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: JamesRottnek on February 04, 2013, 12:16:16 AM
If you can't prove it, he didn't say it.
?

Yeah, of all people, I'd not expect PTA to fall for that fallacy.

I mean, I cannot prove that on Thursday a friend of mine - while we were having lunch - told me he hates Dr. Pepper, but he mostly certainly said it.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 04, 2013, 12:16:39 AM
That's why their kids are always misbehaved, but emotionally healthy. Whereas, religious kids are always well behaved, but then emotionally unstable during adulthood needing therapy.

Without broaching what "always misbehaved, but emotionally healthy" could possibly mean, isn't it inadvisable to make such sweeping generalizations about people based on the religious outlook of their parents? The vast majority of agnostically or atheistically-minded people I know were raised in at least passively religious environments (several actively religious, as well), and came to reject or at least be ambivalent about religion later in life, without the aid or complication of therapy.

And my best friend in junior high/high school experimented for some of that time with homosexuality and bisexuality. He was raised in an atheistic household, but always hiding his curiosity from his family because his parents were very openly anti-homosexual, and his father's views in particular had a big impact on his younger brother in their former years, making for a very toxic environment. My friend ended up on the street off an on from about age 16 to 20 due to mental illness issues aggravated (he said some of his therapists said "brought on") by the stress of trying to be okay with some of what he was doing/feeling at the time while his family's message that it was definitely not okay (I can't use the words I heard in good conscience, but I remember being with his family at several times as a teenager when his father and/or younger brother would go off on how gross/immoral/worthy of terrible things homosexuals are, completely oblivious to the effect this was having on him). He's been happily, heterosexually married for years now, so it's most likely that this was a teenage phase/confusion, but I know that he's never forgotten this period of his life and the effect it had on him. As his friend, I haven't either. (This is one of the many, many reasons I do not accept the presumption of some people on the internet that if you are against the forced acceptance of homosexuality/the criminalization of traditional Christian teachings on homosexuality, that means you hate homosexuals or want them to die or whatever...I was unaware that I secretly wanted my best friend to die during all the years that I spent taking collect calls from him while he was on the street or in various mental hospitals, and the many years since then, during which I have never, ever stopped being his friend and supporting him...)

Actually, it is quite possible he is bisexual.
More likely he isn't.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 04, 2013, 12:18:56 AM
If you can't prove it, he didn't say it.
?

Yeah, of all people, I'd not expect PTA to fall for that fallacy.

I mean, I cannot prove that on Thursday a friend of mine - while we were having lunch - told me he hates Dr. Pepper, but he mostly certainly said it.
It's an empty accusation.  When saying something slanderous about a person, it's your duty to provide the evidence.  Without it, it's just a rumor.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: LBK on February 04, 2013, 12:40:43 AM
If you can't prove it, he didn't say it.

but I'm sure many members of the board will back up the fact that Yesh said that.
Then let them speak for themselves. If they can't prove it, he didn't say it.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5550.msg841549.html#msg841549

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5550.msg841615.html#msg841615

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5550.msg842136.html#msg842136

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5550.msg842143.html#msg842143

Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: dzheremi on February 04, 2013, 12:56:53 AM
That's why their kids are always misbehaved, but emotionally healthy. Whereas, religious kids are always well behaved, but then emotionally unstable during adulthood needing therapy.

Without broaching what "always misbehaved, but emotionally healthy" could possibly mean, isn't it inadvisable to make such sweeping generalizations about people based on the religious outlook of their parents? The vast majority of agnostically or atheistically-minded people I know were raised in at least passively religious environments (several actively religious, as well), and came to reject or at least be ambivalent about religion later in life, without the aid or complication of therapy.

And my best friend in junior high/high school experimented for some of that time with homosexuality and bisexuality. He was raised in an atheistic household, but always hiding his curiosity from his family because his parents were very openly anti-homosexual, and his father's views in particular had a big impact on his younger brother in their former years, making for a very toxic environment. My friend ended up on the street off an on from about age 16 to 20 due to mental illness issues aggravated (he said some of his therapists said "brought on") by the stress of trying to be okay with some of what he was doing/feeling at the time while his family's message that it was definitely not okay (I can't use the words I heard in good conscience, but I remember being with his family at several times as a teenager when his father and/or younger brother would go off on how gross/immoral/worthy of terrible things homosexuals are, completely oblivious to the effect this was having on him). He's been happily, heterosexually married for years now, so it's most likely that this was a teenage phase/confusion, but I know that he's never forgotten this period of his life and the effect it had on him. As his friend, I haven't either. (This is one of the many, many reasons I do not accept the presumption of some people on the internet that if you are against the forced acceptance of homosexuality/the criminalization of traditional Christian teachings on homosexuality, that means you hate homosexuals or want them to die or whatever...I was unaware that I secretly wanted my best friend to die during all the years that I spent taking collect calls from him while he was on the street or in various mental hospitals, and the many years since then, during which I have never, ever stopped being his friend and supporting him...)

Actually, it is quite possible he is bisexual.

Tell that to his wife of 6-7 years. Having known him for about 20 years at this point, I'm betting that the sexually-confused phase of his life (like his drug experimentation around the same period) was part of the same "who am I?" sort of thing that a lot of teenagers and young adults go through, seeing as how all of that stopped once he met the woman who would become his wife. He cleaned up his life in a big way, got a steady job that afforded him the opportunity to buy a house and a little land, and has lived happily ever since in rural Oregon. Other than his taste in music (he still loves heavy metal; I've never understood it), I'd think he was a completely different guy than the kid I grew up with. He knows who he is now. He's happy. He doesn't need drugs or sex with random people or any of that stuff. Perhaps not coincidentally, he told me last time I saw him that he really hasn't had any psych episodes to speak of in years. We're not very close anymore, but I'm so happy for him.

I know it's hard for younger, more socially progressive types to accept, but plenty of people who would've built their identities around being "gay" (or any number of other things) do eventually grow up and realize that it was a phase in their development/maturation, not "who they are". I'm certainly not saying that this is how it is for everybody, but it is not as uncommon as you might think. He's certainly not the only one I know who has that type of past (I can think of at least half a dozen other people, male and female, I grew up with who went through similar struggles with their sexuality in their teens and early 20s, and I grew up in a tiny town of about 10K, not a big city with an organized "gay scene" or whatever). I suppose the difference now (socially speaking) is that with all the insanity surrounding sexual identity being a battleground at every level at an increasingly young age, if most of the people I have known who thought they were gay in high school and later realized they weren't were going through high school now, they might feel pressure to become gay activists or whatever and become sexual cause celebres, thereby probably prolonging their confusion and delaying their ability to move on with their lives/become more complete, well-rounded people.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 04, 2013, 01:02:46 AM
You never see atheist parents rejecting their children because of their sexuality and/or religious beliefs, whereas religious parents do...
How many atheist parents have you known personally?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 04, 2013, 01:04:06 AM
I've never seen an atheist parent reject their kid based on something like beliefs on sexuality. On the other hand, what I have observed among them is that they don't teach their kids crap, because in their eyes, expressing authority automatically equals abuse. That's why their kids are always misbehaved, but emotionally healthy. Whereas, religious kids are always well behaved, but then emotionally unstable during adulthood needing therapy.
Again, how many families have you seen?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: JamesRottnek on February 04, 2013, 01:07:05 AM
That's why their kids are always misbehaved, but emotionally healthy. Whereas, religious kids are always well behaved, but then emotionally unstable during adulthood needing therapy.

Without broaching what "always misbehaved, but emotionally healthy" could possibly mean, isn't it inadvisable to make such sweeping generalizations about people based on the religious outlook of their parents? The vast majority of agnostically or atheistically-minded people I know were raised in at least passively religious environments (several actively religious, as well), and came to reject or at least be ambivalent about religion later in life, without the aid or complication of therapy.

And my best friend in junior high/high school experimented for some of that time with homosexuality and bisexuality. He was raised in an atheistic household, but always hiding his curiosity from his family because his parents were very openly anti-homosexual, and his father's views in particular had a big impact on his younger brother in their former years, making for a very toxic environment. My friend ended up on the street off an on from about age 16 to 20 due to mental illness issues aggravated (he said some of his therapists said "brought on") by the stress of trying to be okay with some of what he was doing/feeling at the time while his family's message that it was definitely not okay (I can't use the words I heard in good conscience, but I remember being with his family at several times as a teenager when his father and/or younger brother would go off on how gross/immoral/worthy of terrible things homosexuals are, completely oblivious to the effect this was having on him). He's been happily, heterosexually married for years now, so it's most likely that this was a teenage phase/confusion, but I know that he's never forgotten this period of his life and the effect it had on him. As his friend, I haven't either. (This is one of the many, many reasons I do not accept the presumption of some people on the internet that if you are against the forced acceptance of homosexuality/the criminalization of traditional Christian teachings on homosexuality, that means you hate homosexuals or want them to die or whatever...I was unaware that I secretly wanted my best friend to die during all the years that I spent taking collect calls from him while he was on the street or in various mental hospitals, and the many years since then, during which I have never, ever stopped being his friend and supporting him...)

Actually, it is quite possible he is bisexual.

Tell that to his wife of 6-7 years. Having known him for about 20 years at this point, I'm betting that the sexually-confused phase of his life (like his drug experimentation around the same period) was part of the same "who am I?" sort of thing that a lot of teenagers and young adults go through, seeing as how all of that stopped once he met the woman who would become his wife. He cleaned up his life in a big way, got a steady job that afforded him the opportunity to buy a house and a little land, and has lived happily ever since in rural Oregon. Other than his taste in music (he still loves heavy metal; I've never understood it), I'd think he was a completely different guy than the kid I grew up with. He knows who he is now. He's happy. He doesn't need drugs or sex with random people or any of that stuff. Perhaps not coincidentally, he told me last time I saw him that he really hasn't had any psych episodes to speak of in years. We're not very close anymore, but I'm so happy for him.

I know it's hard for younger, more socially progressive types to accept, but plenty of people who would've built their identities around being "gay" (or any number of other things) do eventually grow up and realize that it was a phase in their development/maturation, not "who they are". I'm certainly not saying that this is how it is for everybody, but it is not as uncommon as you might think. He's certainly not the only one I know who has that type of past (I can think of at least half a dozen other people, male and female, I grew up with who went through similar struggles with their sexuality in their teens and early 20s, and I grew up in a tiny town of about 10K, not a big city with an organized "gay scene" or whatever). I suppose the difference now (socially speaking) is that with all the insanity surrounding sexual identity being a battleground at every level at an increasingly young age, if most of the people I have known who thought they were gay in high school and later realized they weren't were going through high school now, they might feel pressure to become gay activists or whatever and become sexual cause celebres, thereby probably prolonging their confusion and delaying their ability to move on with their lives/become more complete, well-rounded people.

I fail to see how any of this addresses my comment.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: dzheremi on February 04, 2013, 01:09:25 AM
This is not surprising to me.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 04, 2013, 01:12:09 AM
If you can't prove it, he didn't say it.
?

Yeah, of all people, I'd not expect PTA to fall for that fallacy.
No fallacy... Just using a figure of speech to challenge you to provide evidence for your accusations...
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 04, 2013, 01:18:54 AM
That's why their kids are always misbehaved, but emotionally healthy. Whereas, religious kids are always well behaved, but then emotionally unstable during adulthood needing therapy.

Without broaching what "always misbehaved, but emotionally healthy" could possibly mean, isn't it inadvisable to make such sweeping generalizations about people based on the religious outlook of their parents? The vast majority of agnostically or atheistically-minded people I know were raised in at least passively religious environments (several actively religious, as well), and came to reject or at least be ambivalent about religion later in life, without the aid or complication of therapy.

And my best friend in junior high/high school experimented for some of that time with homosexuality and bisexuality. He was raised in an atheistic household, but always hiding his curiosity from his family because his parents were very openly anti-homosexual, and his father's views in particular had a big impact on his younger brother in their former years, making for a very toxic environment. My friend ended up on the street off an on from about age 16 to 20 due to mental illness issues aggravated (he said some of his therapists said "brought on") by the stress of trying to be okay with some of what he was doing/feeling at the time while his family's message that it was definitely not okay (I can't use the words I heard in good conscience, but I remember being with his family at several times as a teenager when his father and/or younger brother would go off on how gross/immoral/worthy of terrible things homosexuals are, completely oblivious to the effect this was having on him). He's been happily, heterosexually married for years now, so it's most likely that this was a teenage phase/confusion, but I know that he's never forgotten this period of his life and the effect it had on him. As his friend, I haven't either. (This is one of the many, many reasons I do not accept the presumption of some people on the internet that if you are against the forced acceptance of homosexuality/the criminalization of traditional Christian teachings on homosexuality, that means you hate homosexuals or want them to die or whatever...I was unaware that I secretly wanted my best friend to die during all the years that I spent taking collect calls from him while he was on the street or in various mental hospitals, and the many years since then, during which I have never, ever stopped being his friend and supporting him...)

Actually, it is quite possible he is bisexual.

Tell that to his wife of 6-7 years. Having known him for about 20 years at this point, I'm betting that the sexually-confused phase of his life (like his drug experimentation around the same period) was part of the same "who am I?" sort of thing that a lot of teenagers and young adults go through, seeing as how all of that stopped once he met the woman who would become his wife. He cleaned up his life in a big way, got a steady job that afforded him the opportunity to buy a house and a little land, and has lived happily ever since in rural Oregon. Other than his taste in music (he still loves heavy metal; I've never understood it), I'd think he was a completely different guy than the kid I grew up with. He knows who he is now. He's happy. He doesn't need drugs or sex with random people or any of that stuff. Perhaps not coincidentally, he told me last time I saw him that he really hasn't had any psych episodes to speak of in years. We're not very close anymore, but I'm so happy for him.

I know it's hard for younger, more socially progressive types to accept, but plenty of people who would've built their identities around being "gay" (or any number of other things) do eventually grow up and realize that it was a phase in their development/maturation, not "who they are". I'm certainly not saying that this is how it is for everybody, but it is not as uncommon as you might think. He's certainly not the only one I know who has that type of past (I can think of at least half a dozen other people, male and female, I grew up with who went through similar struggles with their sexuality in their teens and early 20s, and I grew up in a tiny town of about 10K, not a big city with an organized "gay scene" or whatever). I suppose the difference now (socially speaking) is that with all the insanity surrounding sexual identity being a battleground at every level at an increasingly young age, if most of the people I have known who thought they were gay in high school and later realized they weren't were going through high school now, they might feel pressure to become gay activists or whatever and become sexual cause celebres, thereby probably prolonging their confusion and delaying their ability to move on with their lives/become more complete, well-rounded people.

I fail to see how any of this addresses my comment.

Of course you do.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: yeshuaisiam on February 07, 2013, 01:14:58 PM
There are A LOT of Christians that need to read the scriptures.

This is not a subject that should be debated.

God called Men who lay with Men an ABOMINATION.
God called Women who lay with Woman an ABOMINATION.

Not just sinful, but abominable!!!

Do you want somebody who has such a distraught and messed up family, who loves their own sex, will not engage in normal relations as God created us, to be the role model for your son or sons?

Us Christians DO NOT JUDGE homosexual behavior, GOD already did.  When we call homosexual behavior an abomination, we are only repeating what God called it.

No Christian should want their sons role models / mentors / troop leaders to be homosexuals.  End of story.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: orthonorm on February 07, 2013, 01:42:59 PM
There are A LOT of Christians that need to read the scriptures.

This is not a subject that should be debated.

God called Men who lay with Men an ABOMINATION.
God called Women who lay with Woman an ABOMINATION.

Not just sinful, but abominable!!!

Hey, it is called the abominable snowman but really, what are you going to do when he looks like this?

(http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/7/2011/11/a7e1e9d0e949cfb6ac5e0d7a86899623.png)












Rainbowiness, intentional . . .
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: mike on February 07, 2013, 01:50:12 PM
There are A LOT of Christians that need to read the scriptures.

This is not a subject that should be debated.

God called Men who lay with Men an ABOMINATION.
God called Women who lay with Woman an ABOMINATION.

Not just sinful, but abominable!!!

Do you want somebody who has such a distraught and messed up family, who loves their own sex, will not engage in normal relations as God created us, to be the role model for your son or sons?

Us Christians DO NOT JUDGE homosexual behavior, GOD already did.  When we call homosexual behavior an abomination, we are only repeating what God called it.

No Christian should want their sons role models / mentors / troop leaders to be homosexuals.  End of story.


Scriptures say nothing about lesbians, do they?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 07, 2013, 01:57:49 PM
There are A LOT of Christians that need to read the scriptures.

This is not a subject that should be debated.

God called Men who lay with Men an ABOMINATION.
God called Women who lay with Woman an ABOMINATION.
Do you eat oysters?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Deep Roots on February 07, 2013, 02:55:40 PM
There are A LOT of Christians that need to read the scriptures.
yes

This is not a subject that should be debated.
meh

God called Men who lay with Men an ABOMINATION.
God called Women who lay with Woman an ABOMINATION.
yep

Not just sinful, but abominable!!!
ooohhhhh [!!!]

Do you want somebody who has such a distraught and messed up family, who loves their own sex, will not engage in normal relations as God created us, to be the role model for your son or sons?
I'd rather have that than, say, a greedy person or a hateful one -- absolutely. 

Us Christians DO NOT JUDGE homosexual behavior, GOD already did.  When we call homosexual behavior an abomination, we are only repeating what God called it.
k

No Christian should want their sons role models / mentors / troop leaders to be homosexuals.  End of story.
Or...you know, not.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Αριστοκλής on February 07, 2013, 04:04:25 PM

Rainbowiness, intentional . . .


Coming out?

Your avatar might lead one to think so.  ;)
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: orthonorm on February 07, 2013, 04:07:08 PM

Rainbowiness, intentional . . .


Coming out?

Your avatar might lead one to think so.  ;)

Out as what? What is that third thing?

That image cracked me up. I saw this whole tri-sexual symbol and it looked some graphic expression of modalism.

Hence it and the words beneath.

The rainbowage was pure plus on the image search.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Αριστοκλής on February 07, 2013, 04:09:17 PM

Rainbowiness, intentional . . .


Coming out?

Your avatar might lead one to think so.  ;)

Out as what? What is that third thing?

That image cracked me up. I saw this whole tri-sexual symbol and it looked some graphic expression of modalism.

Hence it and the words beneath.

The rainbowage was pure plus on the image search.

It was just a test to flush you out of "Hidden" status.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: ilyazhito on February 07, 2013, 04:17:49 PM
I would withdraw from Boy Scouts if gays were allowed, because I would not want to be exposed to potential or actual pedophiles. Also, homosexuality would violate the "morally straight" provision on the scout oath. It would prevent a Scout from being reverent, because certain religions, such as Orthodox Christianity, do not accept homosexuality as a normal way of life. Accepting gays as Scouts implies accepting the gay way as normal, at least for Scouting.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: orthonorm on February 07, 2013, 04:25:25 PM
I would withdraw from Boy Scouts if gays were allowed, because I would not want to be exposed to potential or actual pedophiles. Also, homosexuality would violate the "morally straight" provision on the scout oath. It would prevent a Scout from being reverent, because certain religions, such as Orthodox Christianity, do not accept homosexuality as a normal way of life. Accepting gays as Scouts implies accepting the gay way as normal, at least for Scouting.

You are more likely going to find yourself the victim of pedophilia at the hands of a non-homosexual male than a homosexual one (this gets a bit into begging the question, but whatever).

And what age is one typically a Boy Scout? Ain't you too old to be the victim of pedophilia by that time?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: ilyazhito on February 07, 2013, 04:35:57 PM
This concern would be more for my son than for me, but man-on-man sexual abuse can happen at any age.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: orthonorm on February 07, 2013, 04:38:24 PM
This concern would be more for my son than for me, but man-on-man sexual abuse can happen at any age.

OK, and why do you think homosexual males are more likely to commit such abuse than non-homosexual men?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Deep Roots on February 07, 2013, 04:41:20 PM
I would withdraw from Boy Scouts if gays were allowed, because I would not want to be exposed to potential or actual pedophiles.
:o    :D :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: JamesR on February 07, 2013, 04:46:46 PM
Simba was raised by two men and he turned out just fine, becoming the new king of the jungle.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Jetavan on February 07, 2013, 04:54:17 PM
Simba was raised by two men and he turned out just fine, becoming the new king of the jungle.
Quit lion.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Shiny on February 07, 2013, 05:00:27 PM
Simba was raised by two men and he turned out just fine, becoming the new king of the jungle.
ROFL
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: That person on February 07, 2013, 06:12:20 PM
There are A LOT of Christians that need to read the scriptures.

This is not a subject that should be debated.

God called Men who lay with Men an ABOMINATION.
God called Women who lay with Woman an ABOMINATION.

Not just sinful, but abominable!!!

Do you want somebody who has such a distraught and messed up family, who loves their own sex, will not engage in normal relations as God created us, to be the role model for your son or sons?

Us Christians DO NOT JUDGE homosexual behavior, GOD already did.  When we call homosexual behavior an abomination, we are only repeating what God called it.

No Christian should want their sons role models / mentors / troop leaders to be homosexuals.  End of story.


Scriptures say nothing about lesbians, do they?
Romans 1:26 seems to. Doesn't use the word "abomination" though. I did know one guy who thought, based on the Bible's general silence, that male homosexuality was wrong, but not female. I'm pretty sure he wanted to justify his girl-on-girl porn consumption. I can't say I'm unsympathetic.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Deep Roots on February 07, 2013, 06:18:36 PM
I did know one guy who thought, based on the Bible's general silence, that male homosexuality was wrong, but not female.
I had a student last semester in my Freshman Composition class make the same argument.  He is Muslim and it was great fun getting him to see the hypocrisy.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Deacon Lance on February 07, 2013, 07:32:55 PM
And what age is one typically a Boy Scout? Ain't you too old to be the victim of pedophilia by that time?

11-17. Depends if the boy is prepubescent, but hebephilia and ephebophilia are illegal also.  I agree with you that a pedophile is just as likely to be heterosexual as homosexual, if not more likely.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Deacon Lance on February 07, 2013, 07:38:24 PM
I would withdraw from Boy Scouts if gays were allowed, because I would not want to be exposed to potential or actual pedophiles. Also, homosexuality would violate the "morally straight" provision on the scout oath. It would prevent a Scout from being reverent, because certain religions, such as Orthodox Christianity, do not accept homosexuality as a normal way of life. Accepting gays as Scouts implies accepting the gay way as normal, at least for Scouting.

The local charter organization has final say on who leaders are.  So even if National drops its policy, a troop owned by a  Catholic or Orthodox parish will be able to refuse membership to homosexuals.  What is also going unreported is churches with no opposition to homosexuals, like Unitarians  and Episcopals, already allow homosexuals in.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 07, 2013, 08:28:47 PM
I would withdraw from Boy Scouts if gays were allowed, because I would not want to be exposed to potential or actual pedophiles.
Oy! That canard again. ::) What connection has ever been shown between homosexuality and pedophilia? Or have you so soon forgotten that the Boy Scouts have had a major problem with pedophilia even in spite of their ban on gays?

Also, homosexuality would violate the "morally straight" provision on the scout oath. It would prevent a Scout from being reverent, because certain religions, such as Orthodox Christianity, do not accept homosexuality as a normal way of life. Accepting gays as Scouts implies accepting the gay way as normal, at least for Scouting.
I can agree with this, though.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: TheMathematician on February 07, 2013, 10:07:41 PM
I've thought this one long as through, and as an Eagle and now Assistant Scoutmaster with now 14+ years in the Scouting movement, and what is comes down to for me is this.

The BSA needs to think if allowing gays into scouting would contradict with the "morally straight" aspect of the Scout Law. They need to act and choose based on what they view to be the right course of action, whatever it is. I will respect the BSA with whatever choice they make, as long as they are doing what they view to be the correct choice of action, and I will support thm with either choice they make.

HOWEVER, if they fold, and give in based on outside pressure and money, then my respect will go down for the BSA, as it is not the same organization as i joined in my youth, earned my eagle in, and am currently a volunteer in.


Big picture, regardless of their decision, the BSA is a good orginzation to support and be a part of, but if they fold, give up on their morals and duty to do what is right, then the orgiznation i know is gone.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Ioannis Climacus on February 07, 2013, 10:50:22 PM

Rainbowiness, intentional . . .


Coming out?

Your avatar might lead one to think so.  ;)

Out as what? What is that third thing?

That image cracked me up. I saw this whole tri-sexual symbol and it looked some graphic expression of modalism.

Hence it and the words beneath.

The rainbowage was pure plus on the image search.
Your avatar made a cameo on that schema-monk hoodie that's been going around : (http://www.upscalehype.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Adam-Lambert-wearing-KTZ-Church-Embroidery-Long-Hoodie-and-gloves-at-VH1-Divas-2012-5.jpg)
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Peter J on February 08, 2013, 12:24:05 PM
I would withdraw from Boy Scouts if gays were allowed, because I would not want to be exposed to potential or actual pedophiles. Also, homosexuality would violate the "morally straight" provision on the scout oath. It would prevent a Scout from being reverent, because certain religions, such as Orthodox Christianity, do not accept homosexuality as a normal way of life. Accepting gays as Scouts implies accepting the gay way as normal, at least for Scouting.

Do you mean, because those "certain religions" happen to be right?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Peter J on February 08, 2013, 12:24:36 PM
There are A LOT of Christians that need to read the scriptures.

This is not a subject that should be debated.

God called Men who lay with Men an ABOMINATION.
God called Women who lay with Woman an ABOMINATION.

Not just sinful, but abominable!!!

Do you want somebody who has such a distraught and messed up family, who loves their own sex, will not engage in normal relations as God created us, to be the role model for your son or sons?

Us Christians DO NOT JUDGE homosexual behavior, GOD already did.  When we call homosexual behavior an abomination, we are only repeating what God called it.

No Christian should want their sons role models / mentors / troop leaders to be homosexuals.  End of story.

It is a sin.

But I guess the question to you should be: Do you believe that people who commit that sin should be put to death?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: orthonorm on February 08, 2013, 05:48:03 PM

Rainbowiness, intentional . . .


Coming out?

Your avatar might lead one to think so.  ;)

Out as what? What is that third thing?

That image cracked me up. I saw this whole tri-sexual symbol and it looked some graphic expression of modalism.

Hence it and the words beneath.

The rainbowage was pure plus on the image search.
Your avatar made a cameo on that schema-monk hoodie that's been going around : (http://www.upscalehype.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Adam-Lambert-wearing-KTZ-Church-Embroidery-Long-Hoodie-and-gloves-at-VH1-Divas-2012-5.jpg)

As it has been said before: I am the height of teen-age fashion.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Kerdy on February 08, 2013, 07:51:13 PM
There are A LOT of Christians that need to read the scriptures.

This is not a subject that should be debated.

God called Men who lay with Men an ABOMINATION.
God called Women who lay with Woman an ABOMINATION.

Not just sinful, but abominable!!!

Do you want somebody who has such a distraught and messed up family, who loves their own sex, will not engage in normal relations as God created us, to be the role model for your son or sons?

Us Christians DO NOT JUDGE homosexual behavior, GOD already did.  When we call homosexual behavior an abomination, we are only repeating what God called it.

No Christian should want their sons role models / mentors / troop leaders to be homosexuals.  End of story.

It is a sin.

But I guess the question to you should be: Do you believe that people who commit that sin should be put to death?
No, this isn’t the question at all.  Not even remotely close to the question.  The question is, should be allowed openly in the BSA.  Nice diversion tactic, but it was unsuccessful. 
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: yeshuaisiam on February 08, 2013, 08:02:27 PM
There are A LOT of Christians that need to read the scriptures.

This is not a subject that should be debated.

God called Men who lay with Men an ABOMINATION.
God called Women who lay with Woman an ABOMINATION.

Not just sinful, but abominable!!!

Do you want somebody who has such a distraught and messed up family, who loves their own sex, will not engage in normal relations as God created us, to be the role model for your son or sons?

Us Christians DO NOT JUDGE homosexual behavior, GOD already did.  When we call homosexual behavior an abomination, we are only repeating what God called it.

No Christian should want their sons role models / mentors / troop leaders to be homosexuals.  End of story.


Scriptures say nothing about lesbians, do they?

Yes

Romans 1:26-27

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

"vile affections"

Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: yeshuaisiam on February 08, 2013, 08:03:37 PM
There are A LOT of Christians that need to read the scriptures.

This is not a subject that should be debated.

God called Men who lay with Men an ABOMINATION.
God called Women who lay with Woman an ABOMINATION.

Not just sinful, but abominable!!!

Hey, it is called the abominable snowman but really, what are you going to do when he looks like this?

(http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/7/2011/11/a7e1e9d0e949cfb6ac5e0d7a86899623.png)












Rainbowiness, intentional . . .

Hah,

Well it is a man with a pink flower in his hat.... so....
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: yeshuaisiam on February 08, 2013, 08:05:31 PM
There are A LOT of Christians that need to read the scriptures.

This is not a subject that should be debated.

God called Men who lay with Men an ABOMINATION.
God called Women who lay with Woman an ABOMINATION.
Do you eat oysters?

No, I keep Kosher.

However,

Romans 1:26
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

In the New Covenant they were called "vile affections" and "against nature".
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: Jetavan on February 08, 2013, 08:07:07 PM
There are A LOT of Christians that need to read the scriptures.

This is not a subject that should be debated.

God called Men who lay with Men an ABOMINATION.
God called Women who lay with Woman an ABOMINATION.

Not just sinful, but abominable!!!

Do you want somebody who has such a distraught and messed up family, who loves their own sex, will not engage in normal relations as God created us, to be the role model for your son or sons?

Us Christians DO NOT JUDGE homosexual behavior, GOD already did.  When we call homosexual behavior an abomination, we are only repeating what God called it.

No Christian should want their sons role models / mentors / troop leaders to be homosexuals.  End of story.


Scriptures say nothing about lesbians, do they?

Yes

Romans 1:26-27

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

"vile affections"
I wonder. Did Paul have any notion of people who are 'born' with same-sex attractions? He seems to be criticizing here, people -- heterosexual -- whose extreme lust has taken them into 'vile affections', not people whose normal state of attraction is directed towards those of the same sex.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: yeshuaisiam on February 08, 2013, 08:08:16 PM
There are A LOT of Christians that need to read the scriptures.

This is not a subject that should be debated.

God called Men who lay with Men an ABOMINATION.
God called Women who lay with Woman an ABOMINATION.

Not just sinful, but abominable!!!

Do you want somebody who has such a distraught and messed up family, who loves their own sex, will not engage in normal relations as God created us, to be the role model for your son or sons?

Us Christians DO NOT JUDGE homosexual behavior, GOD already did.  When we call homosexual behavior an abomination, we are only repeating what God called it.

No Christian should want their sons role models / mentors / troop leaders to be homosexuals.  End of story.

It is a sin.

But I guess the question to you should be: Do you believe that people who commit that sin should be put to death?

No.

I believe that the New Covenant Christ taught us (by example the adulterous woman) that we should not cast stones at her.  He said 'go now and sin no more' to her.

Now, if a gay person were to repent of their sin and not practice it, okay the doors are open as we all struggle.   But they won't.  They want to be accepted and for us to accept their sin & them living in their sin.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: yeshuaisiam on February 08, 2013, 08:11:03 PM
There are A LOT of Christians that need to read the scriptures.

This is not a subject that should be debated.

God called Men who lay with Men an ABOMINATION.
God called Women who lay with Woman an ABOMINATION.

Not just sinful, but abominable!!!

Do you want somebody who has such a distraught and messed up family, who loves their own sex, will not engage in normal relations as God created us, to be the role model for your son or sons?

Us Christians DO NOT JUDGE homosexual behavior, GOD already did.  When we call homosexual behavior an abomination, we are only repeating what God called it.

No Christian should want their sons role models / mentors / troop leaders to be homosexuals.  End of story.


Scriptures say nothing about lesbians, do they?

Yes

Romans 1:26-27

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

"vile affections"
I wonder. Did Paul have any notion of people who are 'born' with same-sex attractions? He seems to be criticizing here, people -- heterosexual -- whose extreme lust has taken them into 'vile affections', not people whose normal state of attraction is directed towards those of the same sex.

We were all born with weaknesses to certain sins.  One of mine is anger.

Also your question has been debated before (or the subject matter) by many Christian groups.   Many say that "born gay" is propaganda of our modern evil culture.  Many gay men were sexually abused.   Anyway, it's a sin period.  I can't buy into Lady Gaga's "born this way" mouthpiece song for acceptance.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: yeshuaisiam on February 08, 2013, 08:18:41 PM
I would withdraw from Boy Scouts if gays were allowed, because I would not want to be exposed to potential or actual pedophiles.
Oy! That canard again. ::) What connection has ever been shown between homosexuality and pedophilia? Or have you so soon forgotten that the Boy Scouts have had a major problem with pedophilia even in spite of their ban on gays?

Also, homosexuality would violate the "morally straight" provision on the scout oath. It would prevent a Scout from being reverent, because certain religions, such as Orthodox Christianity, do not accept homosexuality as a normal way of life. Accepting gays as Scouts implies accepting the gay way as normal, at least for Scouting.
I can agree with this, though.

I do see an equally evil division between pedophiles who are gay pedophiles and heterosexual pedophiles.
Both equally sick and disturbing.

However, post-pubescent pedophilia draws some differences.

If Joseph was in his mid 20's and Mary was 14-15, these ages were accepted at this time and would have got Joseph 20 years today.

If Jimmy was in his mid 20's and Marty was 14-15 (in the time of Christ), he would have got stoned then and 20 years today.

The result of this is that gay pedophilia by our definition today (a man at 26 and teen at 15) is equally illegal.  But prior to the 2nd covenant he would have been stoned or put to death.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: JamesRottnek on February 08, 2013, 08:20:45 PM
There are A LOT of Christians that need to read the scriptures.

This is not a subject that should be debated.

God called Men who lay with Men an ABOMINATION.
God called Women who lay with Woman an ABOMINATION.

Not just sinful, but abominable!!!

Do you want somebody who has such a distraught and messed up family, who loves their own sex, will not engage in normal relations as God created us, to be the role model for your son or sons?

Us Christians DO NOT JUDGE homosexual behavior, GOD already did.  When we call homosexual behavior an abomination, we are only repeating what God called it.

No Christian should want their sons role models / mentors / troop leaders to be homosexuals.  End of story.

It is a sin.

But I guess the question to you should be: Do you believe that people who commit that sin should be put to death?

No.

I believe that the New Covenant Christ taught us (by example the adulterous woman) that we should not cast stones at her.  He said 'go now and sin no more' to her.

Now, if a gay person were to repent of their sin and not practice it, okay the doors are open as we all struggle.   But they won't.  They want to be accepted and for us to accept their sin & them living in their sin.

In case you hadn't noticed, the order of events goes:
1.) Crowd brings woman to Jesus, wanting to kill her;
2.) Jesus gets crowd to disperse without harming the woman;
3.) Jesus tells woman to go and sin no more.

It does NOT go:
1.) Crowd brings woman;
2.) Jesus tells woman not to sin, woman says "OK";
3.) Crowd disperses.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: JamesRottnek on February 08, 2013, 08:21:46 PM
I would withdraw from Boy Scouts if gays were allowed, because I would not want to be exposed to potential or actual pedophiles.
Oy! That canard again. ::) What connection has ever been shown between homosexuality and pedophilia? Or have you so soon forgotten that the Boy Scouts have had a major problem with pedophilia even in spite of their ban on gays?

Also, homosexuality would violate the "morally straight" provision on the scout oath. It would prevent a Scout from being reverent, because certain religions, such as Orthodox Christianity, do not accept homosexuality as a normal way of life. Accepting gays as Scouts implies accepting the gay way as normal, at least for Scouting.
I can agree with this, though.

I do see an equally evil division between pedophiles who are gay pedophiles and heterosexual pedophiles.
Both equally sick and disturbing.

However, post-pubescent pedophilia draws some differences.

If Joseph was in his mid 20's and Mary was 14-15, these ages were accepted at this time and would have got Joseph 20 years today.

If Jimmy was in his mid 20's and Marty was 14-15 (in the time of Christ), he would have got stoned then and 20 years today.

The result of this is that gay pedophilia by our definition today (a man at 26 and teen at 15) is equally illegal.  But prior to the 2nd covenant he would have been stoned or put to death.

I don't know who is included when you say "our definition," but this is not the psychological or psychiatric definition of pedophilia.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: yeshuaisiam on February 08, 2013, 08:24:33 PM
This concern would be more for my son than for me, but man-on-man sexual abuse can happen at any age.

Agreed.  

I can't imagine a fully heterosexual man being able to be gratified by young boys.

This is just such common logic:   Ask yourselves - who is more likely to sexually abuse your son?

A) A married family man with 3 children who has been married for 12 years and one of his children are in your son's troop.

-or-

B) A gay man that lives with his partner with no children.  He just wants to be a scout leader because he likes children.


Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: yeshuaisiam on February 08, 2013, 08:25:49 PM
I would withdraw from Boy Scouts if gays were allowed, because I would not want to be exposed to potential or actual pedophiles.
Oy! That canard again. ::) What connection has ever been shown between homosexuality and pedophilia? Or have you so soon forgotten that the Boy Scouts have had a major problem with pedophilia even in spite of their ban on gays?

Also, homosexuality would violate the "morally straight" provision on the scout oath. It would prevent a Scout from being reverent, because certain religions, such as Orthodox Christianity, do not accept homosexuality as a normal way of life. Accepting gays as Scouts implies accepting the gay way as normal, at least for Scouting.
I can agree with this, though.

I do see an equally evil division between pedophiles who are gay pedophiles and heterosexual pedophiles.
Both equally sick and disturbing.

However, post-pubescent pedophilia draws some differences.

If Joseph was in his mid 20's and Mary was 14-15, these ages were accepted at this time and would have got Joseph 20 years today.

If Jimmy was in his mid 20's and Marty was 14-15 (in the time of Christ), he would have got stoned then and 20 years today.

The result of this is that gay pedophilia by our definition today (a man at 26 and teen at 15) is equally illegal.  But prior to the 2nd covenant he would have been stoned or put to death.

I don't know who is included when you say "our definition," but this is not the psychological or psychiatric definition of pedophilia.

Let me clarify.

"Our definition" would be laws in America and legality in America.

There are many states here that prosecute young teen sexual abuse as pedophilia.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: orthonorm on February 08, 2013, 08:29:58 PM
This concern would be more for my son than for me, but man-on-man sexual abuse can happen at any age.

Agreed.  

I can't imagine a fully heterosexual man being able to be gratified by young boys.

This is just such common logic:   Ask yourselves - who is more likely to sexually abuse your son?

A) A married family man with 3 children who has been married for 12 years and one of his children are in your son's troop.

-or-

B) A gay man that lives with his partner with no children.  He just wants to be a scout leader because he likes children.




According to most stuff I've read, the former. Out and openly practicing gay men are less likely to be closeted pedophiles. If you are going to be in the closet, you go all the way.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: biro on February 08, 2013, 08:32:55 PM
Statistically speaking, in the U.S. at least, more pedophiles self-identify as straight.

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html



Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: yeshuaisiam on February 08, 2013, 08:37:44 PM
There are A LOT of Christians that need to read the scriptures.

This is not a subject that should be debated.

God called Men who lay with Men an ABOMINATION.
God called Women who lay with Woman an ABOMINATION.

Not just sinful, but abominable!!!

Do you want somebody who has such a distraught and messed up family, who loves their own sex, will not engage in normal relations as God created us, to be the role model for your son or sons?

Us Christians DO NOT JUDGE homosexual behavior, GOD already did.  When we call homosexual behavior an abomination, we are only repeating what God called it.

No Christian should want their sons role models / mentors / troop leaders to be homosexuals.  End of story.

It is a sin.

But I guess the question to you should be: Do you believe that people who commit that sin should be put to death?

No.

I believe that the New Covenant Christ taught us (by example the adulterous woman) that we should not cast stones at her.  He said 'go now and sin no more' to her.

Now, if a gay person were to repent of their sin and not practice it, okay the doors are open as we all struggle.   But they won't.  They want to be accepted and for us to accept their sin & them living in their sin.

In case you hadn't noticed, the order of events goes:
1.) Crowd brings woman to Jesus, wanting to kill her;
2.) Jesus gets crowd to disperse without harming the woman;
3.) Jesus tells woman to go and sin no more.

It does NOT go:
1.) Crowd brings woman;
2.) Jesus tells woman not to sin, woman says "OK";
3.) Crowd disperses.

Uh huh....

^And he writes in the dust.
^Oldest leave first

I believe that God showed us to forgive people.

What is not included in this story is if the woman continually goes out being adulterous and later gets stoned to death.  We don't know.

God forbids gay relationships.  We can call homosexuality a sin.  They live in sin.   They however do not want to CHANGE their sin or repent of their sin.  They don't even want to struggle with it.  They want us to accept it....

I mean if you'd like to accept it, and if you even have children then you can allow your son to the gay scouts all you want.

For me as a parent with sons in the scout age, the thought of brining them to a homosexual's house who normally do not have children to be a "troop leader" is an absolute outrage.

I don't know if you have children, but anybody without children are only guessing here.  The bond between parent and child is incredibly strong.  I would seriously take a slow agonizing torture filled death for any of my children.  I care for them immensely beyond words.  The sacrifice for children is immeasurable.   Nothing like a close dog - not even in the same ball park.   It's like closer than a parent, brother, grandparent, and cousin combined and multiplied by 50.

So sorry, I could not support the boy scouts sending a gay man to lead my son in his troop.  Now, let's talk about Scout Camp.... wait, let's don't.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: yeshuaisiam on February 08, 2013, 08:39:40 PM
Statistically speaking, in the U.S. at least, more pedophiles self-identify as straight.

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html





Heh, as a 100% straight man, I fully disagree.

There is no way that a man who is heterosexual could look at a little boy even in domination and be aroused.

ah well, their study.  Like their rainbow graphic on the top too.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: orthonorm on February 08, 2013, 08:41:22 PM
Statistically speaking, in the U.S. at least, more pedophiles self-identify as straight.

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html





Heh, as a 100% straight man, I fully disagree.

There is no way that a man who is heterosexual could look at a little boy even in domination and be aroused.

ah well, their study.  Like their rainbow graphic on the top too.

YiM, you have no idea what you are talking about. At least try to read what you responding to before doing so.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 08, 2013, 08:42:17 PM
Statistically speaking, in the U.S. at least, more pedophiles self-identify as straight.

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html





Heh, as a 100% straight man, I fully disagree.

There is no way that a man who is heterosexual could look at a little boy even in domination and be aroused.

ah well, their study.  Like their rainbow graphic on the top too.
I would take a study over your self-based speculation any day of the week.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: biro on February 08, 2013, 08:43:28 PM
Statistically speaking, in the U.S. at least, more pedophiles self-identify as straight.

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html







There is no way that a man who is heterosexual could look at a little boy even in domination and be aroused.



You don't have to like anyone. Facts are facts.

There are lots of guys in jail for rape who will tell you that you are wrong. Anyway, they rape not because they think someone is 'attractive' or 'arousing,' but because of the desire for power and the desire to hurt. Many of them also were abused at some point.

Same reason any rapists do that. (Which does not at all justify it; that's just what they say, is all.)
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: yeshuaisiam on February 08, 2013, 08:44:12 PM
This concern would be more for my son than for me, but man-on-man sexual abuse can happen at any age.

Agreed.  

I can't imagine a fully heterosexual man being able to be gratified by young boys.

This is just such common logic:   Ask yourselves - who is more likely to sexually abuse your son?

A) A married family man with 3 children who has been married for 12 years and one of his children are in your son's troop.

-or-

B) A gay man that lives with his partner with no children.  He just wants to be a scout leader because he likes children.




According to most stuff I've read, the former. Out and openly practicing gay men are less likely to be closeted pedophiles. If you are going to be in the closet, you go all the way.

I do not believe in their immoral lifestyle living in sin wanting to be accepted should be deemed a "leader" of a troop.  Scouts by their own books talk about morality.   As a Christian, I do not believe it is a good choice to put them in leadership roles of our children (clergy, teachers, troop leaders)

I can't accept a sin that is an abomination to God.  
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: biro on February 08, 2013, 08:46:11 PM
All sins are abominations to God.

Do you really want to haul out the full list of things in Leviticus, such as eating shrimp and wearing clothing of more than one fabric?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: yeshuaisiam on February 08, 2013, 08:46:42 PM
Statistically speaking, in the U.S. at least, more pedophiles self-identify as straight.

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html





Heh, as a 100% straight man, I fully disagree.

There is no way that a man who is heterosexual could look at a little boy even in domination and be aroused.

ah well, their study.  Like their rainbow graphic on the top too.
I would take a study over your self-based speculation any day of the week.

You would eh?

A 100% straight heterosexual man + getting frisky with a little boy + and the study to prove it!
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: yeshuaisiam on February 08, 2013, 08:49:13 PM
All sins are abominations to God.

Do you really want to haul out the full list of things in Leviticus, such as eating shrimp and wearing clothing of more than one fabric?

Or the list from Paul, where he calls it Vile?

The difference, you repent of sins.
Homosexuals often do not and want their sin accepted.   Often stating "God made me this way". 
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: biro on February 08, 2013, 08:51:33 PM
All sins are abominations to God.

Do you really want to haul out the full list of things in Leviticus, such as eating shrimp and wearing clothing of more than one fabric?

Or the list from Paul, where he calls it Vile?

The difference, you repent of sins.
Homosexuals often do not and want their sin accepted.   Often stating "God made me this way". 

Who is without sin? Who does not struggle with something?

Have you gotten there yet? I sure wish I had.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 08, 2013, 08:52:18 PM
Statistically speaking, in the U.S. at least, more pedophiles self-identify as straight.

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html





Heh, as a 100% straight man, I fully disagree.

There is no way that a man who is heterosexual could look at a little boy even in domination and be aroused.

ah well, their study.  Like their rainbow graphic on the top too.
I would take a study over your self-based speculation any day of the week.

You would eh?
Yes, I would. Partly because you have no credibility with me. Partly because I know a hasty generalization when I see one. You are making sweeping generalizations solely from your personal point of view, and that's wrong.

A 100% straight heterosexual man + getting frisky with a little boy + and the study to prove it!
Can you provide proof for your point of view outside of the way you imagine things to be?
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: yeshuaisiam on February 08, 2013, 08:57:01 PM
Statistically speaking, in the U.S. at least, more pedophiles self-identify as straight.

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html





Heh, as a 100% straight man, I fully disagree.

There is no way that a man who is heterosexual could look at a little boy even in domination and be aroused.

ah well, their study.  Like their rainbow graphic on the top too.

YiM, you have no idea what you are talking about. At least try to read what you responding to before doing so.

You got me.  I don't have time to read it.

As a 100% straight man, I have 5 children and only so much time to argue why homosexuals should not be leading our children.

I will state that any study on pedophiles by the testimony of pedophiles I can't accept.

A 100% straight man will not be aroused by a little boy for any reason whatsoever.  
100% straight men like women.  100% straight men do not want to touch a little boy's junk.

If people disagree... Fine.

But I would not have a gay man being a leader of my son's scout troop.

Now who else has a son in this argument?  I'd like to know how they'd feel about a gay troop leader at scout camp where your son sleeps either in or near their tent.
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: yeshuaisiam on February 08, 2013, 09:00:06 PM
Statistically speaking, in the U.S. at least, more pedophiles self-identify as straight.

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html





Heh, as a 100% straight man, I fully disagree.

There is no way that a man who is heterosexual could look at a little boy even in domination and be aroused.

ah well, their study.  Like their rainbow graphic on the top too.
I would take a study over your self-based speculation any day of the week.

You would eh?
Yes, I would. Partly because you have no credibility with me. Partly because I know a hasty generalization when I see one. You are making sweeping generalizations solely from your personal point of view, and that's wrong.

A 100% straight heterosexual man + getting frisky with a little boy + and the study to prove it!
Can you provide proof for your point of view outside of the way you imagine things to be?

I guess you want what a gay or pedophilia study done by the testimony of confirmed pedophiles that say they are straight?  Or prison rapists who say they are straight too?

But then,

Cast off my testimony of being straight.... You know, my imagination... nearly 2 decades of marriage and raising 5 children.  I guess I know nothing.  Let's rely on studies of the testimonies of rapists and pedophiles when they call themselves "straight".   Nice.

Studies....
Title: Re: Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members
Post by: biro on February 08, 2013, 09:01:42 PM
Yeshuaisiam, you are free to believe what you want. It's just that's what the men who have been busted for this stuff usually say about themselves. (For the record - I don't know what the numbers are for women who assault, but I expect they are similar.) Are they lying? Only they know.