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Moderated Forums => Faith Issues => Topic started by: Alveus Lacuna on January 12, 2013, 08:55:19 PM

Title: Was the Apostle Paul or any of the other Apostles Clergy?
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on January 12, 2013, 08:55:19 PM
Was the Apostle Paul, or any of the other apostles or evangelists any order of the clergy, or did they merely appoint bishops, presbyters, and deacons?
Title: Re: Was the Apostle Paul or any of the other Apostles Clergy?
Post by: JamesR on January 12, 2013, 09:05:47 PM
I'm pretty sure that they rather appointed clergy because they were traveling around so much evangelising. However, I'm sure there were times when--upon visiting particular Churches--they acted as the clergy, maybe serving a Liturgy or two.
Title: Re: Was the Apostle Paul or any of the other Apostles Clergy?
Post by: Ansgar on January 12, 2013, 09:16:14 PM
Well, St. Peter was Bishop of Antioch, St. Mark was Bishop of Alexandria and St. Linus was Bishop of Rome.
Title: Re: Was the Apostle Paul or any of the other Apostles Clergy?
Post by: sheenj on January 12, 2013, 09:21:32 PM
Well, St. Peter was Bishop of Antioch, St. Mark was Bishop of Alexandria and St. Linus was Bishop of Rome.

You're forgetting St. James, the First Archbishop of Jerusalem.
Title: Re: Was the Apostle Paul or any of the other Apostles Clergy?
Post by: Melodist on January 12, 2013, 09:39:57 PM
Yes.

1Tim 4:14
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

2Tim1:6
Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.
Title: Re: Was the Apostle Paul or any of the other Apostles Clergy?
Post by: Ansgar on January 12, 2013, 09:43:33 PM
Well, St. Peter was Bishop of Antioch, St. Mark was Bishop of Alexandria and St. Linus was Bishop of Rome.

You're forgetting St. James, the First Archbishop of Jerusalem.

Right  :)
Title: Re: Was the Apostle Paul or any of the other Apostles Clergy?
Post by: choy on January 12, 2013, 09:49:50 PM
Well, St. Peter was Bishop of Antioch, St. Mark was Bishop of Alexandria and St. Linus was Bishop of Rome.

You're forgetting St. James, the First Archbishop of Jerusalem.

St. James was never an Apostle.  This is St. James the brother of Our Lord, not St. James the Great (son of Zebedee, brother of St. John the Apostle) or St. James the Less (son of Alphaeus).
Title: Re: Was the Apostle Paul or any of the other Apostles Clergy?
Post by: LBK on January 12, 2013, 10:25:02 PM
Quote
St. James was never an Apostle.  

St James, Brother of the Lord, is indeed an apostle. In church calendars, his is the first name on the list of the Apostles of the Seventy (feast day January 4). The Seven Deacons (Stephen, Laurence, Nicanor, etc) are also listed among them.
Title: Re: Was the Apostle Paul or any of the other Apostles Clergy?
Post by: sheenj on January 12, 2013, 10:36:59 PM
Quote
St. James was never an Apostle.  

St James, Brother of the Lord, is indeed an apostle. In church calendars, his is the first name on the list of the Apostles of the Seventy (feast day January 4). The Seven Deacons (Stephen, Laurence, Nicanor, etc) are also listed among them.

Yup, in my church we remember him in our Diptychs as:

Quote
The Venerable St. James, the First Archbishop of Jerusalem, Apostle and Martyr.
Title: Re: Was the Apostle Paul or any of the other Apostles Clergy?
Post by: mike on January 13, 2013, 10:20:22 AM
Quote
St. James was never an Apostle. 

St James, Brother of the Lord, is indeed an apostle. In church calendars, his is the first name on the list of the Apostles of the Seventy (feast day January 4). The Seven Deacons (Stephen, Laurence, Nicanor, etc) are also listed among them.

Does that mean that the 70 did not have the permission for performing ordinations as the 12 (+ Paul) had unlike they had been ordained by one of the 12 (or Paul)?
Title: Re: Was the Apostle Paul or any of the other Apostles Clergy?
Post by: dhinuus on January 13, 2013, 10:46:55 AM
Does that mean that the 70 did not have the permission for performing ordinations as the 12 (+ Paul) had unlike they had been ordained by one of the 12 (or Paul)?
This is a good question. I also look forward to the answer.

St. Stephen, St. James the brother of our Lord and St. Mark the Evangelist are all members of the "70".

1) Of this St. Stephen was a deacon.  If he was a deacon could he also have been a presbyter ? 

2) These is some tradition of St. Mark the Evangelist being ordained by St. Peter one of the 12. So does this mean that the 70 had to be ordained by one of the 12 to be a presbyter / episcopa?

3) If that is the case, was St. James the brother of our Lord and Bishop of Jersusalem, ever ordained by anyone of the 12 ?
Title: Re: Was the Apostle Paul or any of the other Apostles Clergy?
Post by: dhinuus on January 16, 2013, 11:56:30 AM
--bump--- 
I was hoping that someone would shed more light on this. Was it necessary for the 70 to be ordained by one of the 12 for them to become priests?  In other words was St. James of Jerusalem and St. Mark the Evangelists ordained by one of the 12?  If not, why is St. Stephen one of the 70 only a deacon why St. James and St. Mark also of the 70 bishops of Jerusalem and Alexandria respectively ?
Title: Re: Was the Apostle Paul or any of the other Apostles Clergy?
Post by: Benjamin the Red on January 16, 2013, 11:38:25 PM
I always operated under the assumption that the Twelve were the leaders of the early Church, above the episcopate, since one bishop cannot ordain another bishop and yet the Apostles did (such as St. Peter ordaining St. Linus and St. Clement as bishops). The 70, however, were sent by Christ in the Gospels but did not serve the same function as the Twelve. Some were later bishops, like St. Mark or St. Timothy and others were not, like St. Stephen, who was a deacon.
Title: Re: Was the Apostle Paul or any of the other Apostles Clergy?
Post by: Father H on January 17, 2013, 12:06:55 AM
--bump--- 
I was hoping that someone would shed more light on this. Was it necessary for the 70 to be ordained by one of the 12 for them to become priests?  In other words was St. James of Jerusalem and St. Mark the Evangelists ordained by one of the 12?  If not, why is St. Stephen one of the 70 only a deacon why St. James and St. Mark also of the 70 bishops of Jerusalem and Alexandria respectively ?

The confusion arises because many of the 70 became apostate, and a few martyred early.  They needed replaced (just as with the twelve replacing Judas, up to one generation out until Bishoprics were established, and then Bishops took over the Apostolic office once Bishoprics were established).  The originals of the 70 (of which James was one) were appointed by Christ Himself as reported in the Gospel of Luke.  The replacements who fell away were appointed by the 12 (Timothy was an appointment in place of an apostate among the 70, for example).  Afterward, it was the 12 that appointed numerous amounts of the 70 as a Bishop in a certain place

After they had begun to "appoint presbyters in every church" (Acts 14.23), we see that neither the 12 nor the 70 are replaced either by reason of martyrdom or apostasy, for the office is held now "in a place" by Bishops and Presbyters.   
Title: Re: Was the Apostle Paul or any of the other Apostles Clergy?
Post by: LBK on January 17, 2013, 12:08:24 AM
Quote
I always operated under the assumption that the Twelve were the leaders of the early Church, above the episcopate,

Iconographically, this is true. None of the Twelve are ever portrayed as bishops, but as teachers. This is signified by the clavulus, the broad vertical stripe extending from the shoulder, often painted in gold, which was a symbol of authority in the Greco-Roman world. Christ, the Great Teacher, is also portrayed in this way.

The apostles of the Seventy, such as St James the Brother of the Lord, who served as bishops, are portrayed in their vestments. St Mark the Evangelist, who, while he served as bishop, is never shown in vestments, but as an apostle and teacher. Writing one of the Gospels, after all, would be seen as a higher calling than that of bishop.