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Moderated Forums => Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion => Orthodox-Catholic Discussion => Topic started by: walter1234 on December 22, 2012, 10:22:19 AM

Title: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: walter1234 on December 22, 2012, 10:22:19 AM
Why can't the married Christians be the priests in Catholic Church?
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Punch on December 22, 2012, 10:29:46 AM
Why can't the married Christians be the priest in Catholic Church?

Because the Western Church has always had a perverted view of marriage.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: walter1234 on December 22, 2012, 10:32:28 AM
Why can't the married Christians be the priest in Catholic Church?

Because the Western Church has always had a perverted view of marriage.

How does western church pervert  the view of marriage?
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Deacon Lance on December 22, 2012, 11:51:59 AM
Why can't the married Christians be the priests in Catholic Church?
They can.  An unmarried presbyterate is a discipline of the Latin Catholic Church, but they have exceptions.  Most of the Eastern Catholic Churches have a married presbyterate just as their Orthodox counterparts.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: theistgal on December 22, 2012, 11:53:43 AM
Married men can become priests in both the Eastern and Western Churches. It's not as common in the West as in the East but it does happen. Usually in the West it's because a married priest in another church converted. For example, we have a married Romanian Catholic priest at our church, who converted from Romanian Orthodoxy.

However, priests must be married *before* they're ordained, in both East and West. A single priest can't just go out and join Match.com, AFAIK.

Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: TheMathematician on December 22, 2012, 12:04:13 PM
The only sources I can provide for what I am about to say is based on my years of reading, and what my memory allows me to remember, so treat what im saying accordingly.

Once a man becomes ordained, then he can not become married, regardless if he is Orthodox or Catholic.

It is also true that the RCC, by norm, will not ordain a married man to the priesthood, because that is their normal displince and happens virtually every time.

HOWEVER, if a man whom is married is converting from specific churches (Anglician/-related bodies, Lutherans i believe, and some others that hold an Episcopal structure of some sort(IM leaving out us Orthodox in this, because we are a special case) they CAN be ordained as married priests, though this is the exception,not the norm.


THe unsourced assumption that I shall make, because i believe it to be true from what I have read: A married priest will never be the pastor of a parish, because something makes him ineligible to do so. Assistant priest, yes, pastor, no.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Agabus on December 22, 2012, 12:08:27 PM
Married men can become priests in both the Eastern and Western Churches. It's not as common in the West as in the East but it does happen. Usually in the West it's because a married priest in another church converted. For example, we have a married Romanian Catholic priest at our church, who converted from Romanian Orthodoxy.
I know of a couple of married Latin-rite priests who converted (one from Anglicanism and one from Methodism) and were ordained under Pope Paul VI's pastoral provision...But the pastoral provision is mostly an exception.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: mike on December 22, 2012, 12:22:30 PM
Married men can become priests in both the Eastern and Western Churches. It's not as common in the West as in the East but it does happen. Usually in the West it's because a married priest in another church converted. For example, we have a married Romanian Catholic priest at our church, who converted from Romanian Orthodoxy.

An example how Vatican ignores its canon law ^
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Punch on December 22, 2012, 01:21:08 PM
Why can't the married Christians be the priest in Catholic Church?

Because the Western Church has always had a perverted view of marriage.

How does western church pervert  the view of marriage?

The whole celebacy issue has been around, and a sticking point, between the two Churches since about the 600's.  There is a lot of materiel out there to read if you take the time to look for it.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Shanghaiski on December 22, 2012, 02:41:03 PM
Married men can become priests in both the Eastern and Western Churches. It's not as common in the West as in the East but it does happen. Usually in the West it's because a married priest in another church converted. For example, we have a married Romanian Catholic priest at our church, who converted from Romanian Orthodoxy.

An example how Vatican ignores its canon law ^

It's really more like guidelines. Still, they must stick to the code.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: mike on December 22, 2012, 02:46:08 PM
Married men can become priests in both the Eastern and Western Churches. It's not as common in the West as in the East but it does happen. Usually in the West it's because a married priest in another church converted. For example, we have a married Romanian Catholic priest at our church, who converted from Romanian Orthodoxy.

An example how Vatican ignores its canon law ^

It's really more like guidelines. Still, they must stick to the code.

He should have been received into the Romanian Church United with Rome (or whatever they call themselves). There is nothing for interpretation in that. Just another proof Vatican treats its Eastern minions with neglect.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Asteriktos on December 22, 2012, 02:55:03 PM
Don't you blaspheme in here!
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: OrthoNoob on December 22, 2012, 03:44:22 PM
Married men can become priests in both the Eastern and Western Churches. It's not as common in the West as in the East but it does happen. Usually in the West it's because a married priest in another church converted. For example, we have a married Romanian Catholic priest at our church, who converted from Romanian Orthodoxy.

An example how Vatican ignores its canon law ^

It's really more like guidelines. Still, they must stick to the code.

He should have been received into the Romanian Church United with Rome (or whatever they call themselves). There is nothing for interpretation in that. Just another proof Vatican treats its Eastern minions with neglect.

Theistgal did say he was a Romanian Catholic priest...
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: mike on December 22, 2012, 03:52:03 PM
Married men can become priests in both the Eastern and Western Churches. It's not as common in the West as in the East but it does happen. Usually in the West it's because a married priest in another church converted. For example, we have a married Romanian Catholic priest at our church, who converted from Romanian Orthodoxy.

An example how Vatican ignores its canon law ^

It's really more like guidelines. Still, they must stick to the code.

He should have been received into the Romanian Church United with Rome (or whatever they call themselves). There is nothing for interpretation in that. Just another proof Vatican treats its Eastern minions with neglect.

Theistgal did say he was a Romanian Catholic priest...

Theistgal did say Romanian Orthodox priest converted to the Western Church (implicitly Latin Rite of the Roman Catholic Church). And that is a violation of Roman Catholic canon law (but it's apparently OK since it downgrades Eastern Catholic Churches).
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Asteriktos on December 22, 2012, 03:53:22 PM
"a married Romanian Catholic priest"

Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: mike on December 22, 2012, 03:55:40 PM
"a married Romanian Catholic priest"



"Usually in the West it's because a married priest in another church converted. For example"
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Deacon Lance on December 22, 2012, 04:47:57 PM
Theistgal did say Romanian Orthodox priest converted to the Western Church (implicitly Latin Rite of the Roman Catholic Church). And that is a violation of Roman Catholic canon law (but it's apparently OK since it downgrades Eastern Catholic Churches).

She said at her church, which is Byzantine Catholic, they have a married Romanian Catholic priest.  How you extrapolate that to mean he became Latin Catholic I am unsure.  Her point was married priests in the Latin Catholic are usually converts from the Anglican Church and sometimes other Protestant Churches. In the context of her text I believe by West she means the US and Western Europe as opposed to Easter Europe and the Middle East, not the Latin Catholic Church.  Orthodox priests who join the Catholic Church are enrolled in the equivalent Eastern Catholic Church.  They may however receive biritual faculties and serve in the Latin Church. 
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: stanley123 on December 22, 2012, 05:18:46 PM
Why can't the married Christians be the priest in Catholic Church?

Because the Western Church has always had a perverted view of marriage.
Unfortunately, when I look at the annulment situation in the RCC, I have to agree with your opinion here. A while back, a beautiful Lutheran lady appeared on the "60 minutes" program. She said that she had married a Roman Catholic man about 16 years ago and she agreed to raise her children Catholics, which she did. She followed all the Catholic rules and married the Catholic man in the Catholic Church according to the Catholic ceremony. Then after 15 years of marriage, her husband had been unfaithful to the marriage and became involved with a younger woman. He then wanted out of the marriage and applied for an annulment which he then got. The Lutheran lady said that she is suing the Catholic Church for fraud and deception as the Catholic Church had deceived her for 15 years leaving her with the impression that she was married, whereas now, after 15 or so years, the Catholic Church says that she was never married validly or sacramentally. Why then did they require that she go through all of the Catholic ceremony and require her to promise to raise her children as Catholics, when she was never really married in the first place. This was mendacious and fraudulent according to her lawsuit against the RCC  and according to her testimony on the program. She that that this process of annulment would never have come up, except for the fact that her husband had been unfaithful to the marriage. She said that she was OK with a divorce, which declares that there was a marriage, but now they wanted to break up and divorce, but that she was not OK with the idea that for all these years she was never married sacramentally. She said that this annulment idea was a huge insult to her character as a Christian and as a Lutheran, since she never would live with a man without being officially, validly and sacramentally married to him in the eyes of God. Sixteen (approximately) years ago,  the RCC  had her go through a Catholic ceremony and mendaciously and falsely declared that she was married and this was a huge fraud to get her to live with a man for 15 years without being married to him. Now according to the complaint,  the authorities of the RCC say that there was no marriage in the first place.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Deacon Lance on December 22, 2012, 05:31:45 PM
When did Lutheran's start believing marriage was a sacrament? 
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: stanley123 on December 22, 2012, 05:44:47 PM
When did Lutheran's start believing marriage was a sacrament? 
I don't think that Lutherans believe that marriage is a sacrament. However, today many are not dogmatic about the number of sacraments. Officially, Lutherans teach that Baptism and Holy Communion are the two sacraments. But oftentimes, Confession and Absolution is referred to as the "third sacrament." The other four religious rites ( confirmation, marriage, holy orders, anointing of the sick) are viewed as sacramental and religious in nature, while not necessarily, or so clearly definable as, sacraments.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: choy on December 22, 2012, 06:07:35 PM
He should have been received into the Romanian Church United with Rome (or whatever they call themselves). There is nothing for interpretation in that. Just another proof Vatican treats its Eastern minions with neglect.

The Vatican does not neglect Eastern Catholics.  In fact there is constant and subtle reminder that Eastern Catholic should become Roman Catholics.  I'm pretty sure the Eastern Catholics will be happy if the Vatican ignores them completely.  No more constant reminder that the priests must embrace celibacy.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: theistgal on December 22, 2012, 07:46:57 PM
Good grief - ok just to clarify, this Romanian Catholic priest converted from Romanian Orthodox. He's still Romanian,  not Roman.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: serb1389 on December 22, 2012, 08:16:36 PM
Why can't the married Christians be the priest in Catholic Church?

Because the Western Church has always had a perverted view of marriage.
Unfortunately, when I look at the annulment situation in the RCC, I have to agree with your opinion here. A while back, a beautiful Lutheran lady appeared on the "60 minutes" program. She said that she had married a Roman Catholic man about 16 years ago and she agreed to raise her children Catholics, which she did. She followed all the Catholic rules and married the Catholic man in the Catholic Church according to the Catholic ceremony. Then after 15 years of marriage, her husband had been unfaithful to the marriage and became involved with a younger woman. He then wanted out of the marriage and applied for an annulment which he then got. The Lutheran lady said that she is suing the Catholic Church for fraud and deception as the Catholic Church had deceived her for 15 years leaving her with the impression that she was married, whereas now, after 15 or so years, the Catholic Church says that she was never married validly or sacramentally. Why then did they require that she go through all of the Catholic ceremony and require her to promise to raise her children as Catholics, when she was never really married in the first place. This was mendacious and fraudulent according to her lawsuit against the RCC  and according to her testimony on the program. She that that this process of annulment would never have come up, except for the fact that her husband had been unfaithful to the marriage. She said that she was OK with a divorce, which declares that there was a marriage, but now they wanted to break up and divorce, but that she was not OK with the idea that for all these years she was never married sacramentally. She said that this annulment idea was a huge insult to her character as a Christian and as a Lutheran, since she never would live with a man without being officially, validly and sacramentally married to him in the eyes of God. Sixteen (approximately) years ago,  the RCC  had her go through a Catholic ceremony and mendaciously and falsely declared that she was married and this was a huge fraud to get her to live with a man for 15 years without being married to him. Now according to the complaint,  the authorities of the RCC say that there was no marriage in the first place.

This is so sad.  Wonder how they could make a decision like this, from a pastoral standpoint
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: stanley123 on December 22, 2012, 09:10:55 PM
Married men can become priests in both the Eastern and Western Churches. It's not as common in the West as in the East but it does happen.
I believe that I read that a while back, the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church petitioned the Vatican to allow American married men to be ordained in that Church in the USA. The petition was turned down by Cardinal Ratzinger. If the Vatican does not grant petitions such as this in the Eastern Catholic Churches in the USA which are united to Rome, what guarantee do the Eastern Orthodox have that in the case of a reunion between the RCC and the EOC, that the Vatican won't be pressuring them to embrace celibacy as a general rule? Wasn't there an agreement at the time of the reunion between the RCC and the Eastern Catholic Churches that the Vatican would allow the ECC to keep their customs?
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Deacon Lance on December 22, 2012, 09:41:38 PM
Married men can become priests in both the Eastern and Western Churches. It's not as common in the West as in the East but it does happen.
I believe that I read that a while back, the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church petitioned the Vatican to allow American married men to be ordained in that Church in the USA. The petition was turned down by Cardinal Ratzinger. If the Vatican does not grant petitions such as this in the Eastern Catholic Churches in the USA which are united to Rome, what guarantee do the Eastern Orthodox have that in the case of a reunion between the RCC and the EOC, that the Vatican won't be pressuring them to embrace celibacy as a general rule? Wasn't there an agreement at the time of the reunion between the RCC and the Eastern Catholic Churches that the Vatican would allow the ECC to keep their customs?

Wrong.  The Byzantine Catholic Metropolia in the US must petition Rome on a case by case to ordain married men the presbyterate and have done so.  (I don't agree with this requirement but that is a different thread)  I believe now all four Eparchies have married priests ministering in them.  The seminary has married men studying there.  The Ukrainians, Melkites and Romanians all have married presbyters both ordained here and abroad.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: stanley123 on December 22, 2012, 10:30:24 PM
Married men can become priests in both the Eastern and Western Churches. It's not as common in the West as in the East but it does happen.
I believe that I read that a while back, the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church petitioned the Vatican to allow American married men to be ordained in that Church in the USA. The petition was turned down by Cardinal Ratzinger. If the Vatican does not grant petitions such as this in the Eastern Catholic Churches in the USA which are united to Rome, what guarantee do the Eastern Orthodox have that in the case of a reunion between the RCC and the EOC, that the Vatican won't be pressuring them to embrace celibacy as a general rule? Wasn't there an agreement at the time of the reunion between the RCC and the Eastern Catholic Churches that the Vatican would allow the ECC to keep their customs?

Wrong.  The Byzantine Catholic Metropolia in the US must petition Rome on a case by case to ordain married men the presbyterate and have done so.  (I don't agree with this requirement but that is a different thread)  I believe now all four Eparchies have married priests ministering in them.  The seminary has married men studying there.  The Ukrainians, Melkites and Romanians all have married presbyters both ordained here and abroad.
So there is no general permission to ordain married men, but there must be approval from Rome on a case by case basis. I was talking about the approval of a general permission to ordain married men as priests. How many married men have been approved by Rome to be ordained as priests in the Ruthenian Byzantime Catholic Church in the last 20 years?
Rome banned the practice of ordaining married men to the priesthood " in America in 1929 after Latin-rite bishops complained that Slavic priests with wives and children were scandalizing the Irish faithful. That ban led many Eastern Catholics here to convert to Orthodoxy."In 1998, Metropolitan Judson Procyk of Pittsburgh "was set to announce that Rome had approved 50 new canons governing everything from seminary education to sacraments. One would have allowed Byzantine bishops in the United States to ordain married men without special permission.
But a conservative Catholic news organization misinterpreted the change as a revolt against Rome. The Vatican then placed all 50 laws on hold while talks continued between officials of the Vatican's Congregation for Oriental Churches and Byzantine canon lawyers from the United States."
Presently, "it is possible to ordain a married deacon [to the priesthood], with permission from Rome." according to Metropolitan Procyk.
Please see: http://old.post-gazette.com/regionstate/19991002byzantine4.asp


Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Deacon Lance on December 22, 2012, 11:15:41 PM
There was no petition.  It was included in the draft of our particular law.  One of our own priests leaked the info in a way that gave EWTN a fit and made Rome nervous.

How many in the past twenty years?  I don't know.  I do know that the every Greek Catholic Eparchy in the US has married presbyters.  The Ukrainians have the most, I would estimate 50% of their priests in the US.  We (Ruthenians) have the fewest and Bishop John in Parma is the only one to ordain any by his own hand.  This is the otherside of the coin.  You have to have bishops willing to ordain married men.  Most of ours have been unwilling, feeling the people will have a hard time with it and most of the parishes can't afford it.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: stanley123 on December 22, 2012, 11:18:07 PM
There was no petition.  It was included in the draft of our particular law.  One of our own priests leaked the info in a way that gave EWTN a fit and made Rome nervous.

How many in the past twenty years?  I don't know.  I do know that the every Greek Catholic Eparchy in the US has married presbyters.  The Ukrainians have the most, I would estimate 50% of their priests in the US.  We (Ruthenians) have the fewest and Bishop John in Parma is the only one to ordain any by his own hand.  This is the otherside of the coin.  You have to have bishops willing to ordain married men.  Most of ours have been unwilling, feeling the people will have a hard time with it and most of the parishes can't afford it.
After the Melkite Greek Catholic Patriarch had ordained a married man as a priest in his diocese, he got a letter from Pope Paul VI in 1978 which declared that the ordination was illicit and that the priestly faculties were removed. It was reported that the Pope said that he suspended the application of the general principle of preservation of Eastern traditions. If the Pope decides to suspend an official agreement with the Eastern Catholic Churches to preserve their traditions, then should the Orthodox be somewhat dubious or wary about a reunion with Rome?
See: http://orthocath.wordpress.com/2011/10/22/repost-can-east-west-coexist-with-married-priests-2/
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: stanley123 on December 22, 2012, 11:35:30 PM
There was no petition.  
So in 1998, the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church did not seek to have Rome approve Statute 44 of the Ruthenian particular law and thereby overturn the decree Cum data fuerit?
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: stanley123 on December 23, 2012, 12:12:21 AM
 One of our own priests leaked the info in a way that gave EWTN a fit and made Rome nervous.
That's odd.  In other words,  at least partially,  the Vatican came to  its decision on married priests based on what the people at EWTN say? But hasn't EWTN been known for having a number of scandalous priests who have gone  seriously wrong? For example, Father Ken Roberts,  Father John Bertolucci, Father Francis Mary Stone, Father Alberto Cutié, Fr. Thomas Euteneuer, Fr. John Corapi, and others such as Father Robert Sirico ? How come EWTN, which is reported to have had many priests with moral problems,  has such an influence on the Vatican when it comes to the Eastern Catholic Churches?
http://www.catholicintl.com/index.php/catholic/scandals/1034-ewtn-stuck-with-a-crop-of-wayward-priests-and-prelates

Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Deacon Lance on December 23, 2012, 12:20:53 AM
There was no petition.  
So in 1998, the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church did not seek to have Rome approve Statute 44 of the Ruthenian particular law and thereby overturn the decree Cum data fuerit?

They submitted the Metropolia's particular law for approval.  The feeling was that Cum Data Fuerit was a dead issue as it was supposed to be renewed ever ten years and this was not done after Vatican II and that the CCEO abbrogated previous law.  You are presenting it as if a specific petition to solely overturn Cum Data Fuerit was forwarded and that is not what happened.  I know before the promulgation of our particular law we had no married priests, now we have several.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Deacon Lance on December 23, 2012, 12:30:35 AM
 One of our own priests leaked the info in a way that gave EWTN a fit and made Rome nervous.
That's odd.  In other words,  at least partially,  the Vatican came to  its decision on married priests based on what the people at EWTN say? But hasn't EWTN been known for having a number of scandalous priests who have gone  seriously wrong? For example, Father Ken Roberts,  Father John Bertolucci, Father Francis Mary Stone, Father Alberto Cutié, Fr. Thomas Euteneuer, Fr. John Corapi, and others such as Father Robert Sirico ? How come EWTN, which is reported to have had many priests with moral problems,  has such an influence on the Vatican when it comes to the Eastern Catholic Churches?
http://www.catholicintl.com/index.php/catholic/scandals/1034-ewtn-stuck-with-a-crop-of-wayward-priests-and-prelates

I think the alarm they sounded casued problems for us.  It didn't have to be them.  It could have been the Latin bishops or the Nuncio or NCR, etc.  This was supposed to be done without fanfare and one of own makes it look like a confrontation and EWTN ran with it. 
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: JamesR on December 23, 2012, 02:38:03 AM
Isn't the Roman Catholic practice of not allowing Priests to marry actually closer to the Apostolic Tradition opposed to the Orthodox practice of allowing them to marry? The Scriptures make it very clear that a Priest is to be a single man. Why do we allow Priests to marry?
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: stanley123 on December 23, 2012, 02:42:59 AM
Married men can become priests in both the Eastern and Western Churches.
"Rome to US Eastern Catholics: New Priests Should “Embrace Celibacy”…"
May 17, 2012 By The Crescat
"...Catholic News Service today reported the comments of the head of the papal office overseeing US Eastern Catholic Bishops that new vocations to the priesthood in US Eastern Catholic Churches should be “embracing celibacy” because “mandatory celibacy is the general rule for priests” in the US. "
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thecrescat/2012/05/rome-to-us-eastern-catholics-new-priests-should-%E2%80%9Cembrace-celibacy%E2%80%9D.html
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Cymbyz on December 23, 2012, 02:54:13 AM
By economy long in use now, priests may not marry, but we do ordain married men; the marriage has to come before the ordination.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: ialmisry on December 23, 2012, 04:23:59 AM
Isn't the Roman Catholic practice of not allowing Priests to marry actually closer to the Apostolic Tradition opposed to the Orthodox practice of allowing them to marry? The Scriptures make it very clear that a Priest is to be a single man. Why do we allow Priests to marry?
The Scriptures make it clear that a priest is to be the husband of one wife.  No rule of him having to be single is found in scripture.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Cyrillic on December 23, 2012, 05:57:37 AM
Isn't the Roman Catholic practice of not allowing Priests to marry actually closer to the Apostolic Tradition opposed to the Orthodox practice of allowing them to marry? The Scriptures make it very clear that a Priest is to be a single man. Why do we allow Priests to marry?
The Scriptures make it clear that a priest is to be the husband of one wife.  No rule of him having to be single is found in scripture.

Same for the bishops, though.

Married men can become priests in both the Eastern and Western Churches. It's not as common in the West as in the East but it does happen. Usually in the West it's because a married priest in another church converted. For example, we have a married Romanian Catholic priest at our church, who converted from Romanian Orthodoxy.

An example how Vatican ignores its canon law ^

Yes. You call it oikonomia, IIRC.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: JoeS2 on December 23, 2012, 08:48:18 AM


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_Toth

JoeS
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: username! on December 23, 2012, 02:03:44 PM
Why can't the married Christians be the priests in Catholic Church?
They can.  An unmarried presbyterate is a discipline of the Latin Catholic Church, but they have exceptions.  Most of the Eastern Catholic Churches have a married presbyterate just as their Orthodox counterparts.

And the Pittsburgh Eparchy of the Ruthenians has ordained how many married men to the priesthood?  I know one or two have been ordained in other eparchies.  But it's not the standard practice yet and yinz have had a long time since Data cum fuerit ( I think that's the name of it).
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: username! on December 23, 2012, 02:06:06 PM
Isn't the Roman Catholic practice of not allowing Priests to marry actually closer to the Apostolic Tradition opposed to the Orthodox practice of allowing them to marry? The Scriptures make it very clear that a Priest is to be a single man. Why do we allow Priests to marry?

It's easier to get advice from a married man on your marriage than it is to get marriage advice from a 23 year old "celibate" priest.
Sex in the Roman Catholic church is only for baby making.  Not for pleasure.
This is one of those truisms they don't tell you in the visit us brochure.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: mike on December 23, 2012, 02:12:02 PM
Ukrainian Catholic bishops in Poland are not allowed to ordain married men. Married men are ordained during some trips to Ukraine and then they come back.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: ialmisry on December 23, 2012, 02:45:29 PM
Isn't the Roman Catholic practice of not allowing Priests to marry actually closer to the Apostolic Tradition opposed to the Orthodox practice of allowing them to marry? The Scriptures make it very clear that a Priest is to be a single man. Why do we allow Priests to marry?
The Scriptures make it clear that a priest is to be the husband of one wife.  No rule of him having to be single is found in scripture.

Same for the bishops, though.
We do have bishops who have married.  I don't know if the Vatican has any.

Married men can become priests in both the Eastern and Western Churches. It's not as common in the West as in the East but it does happen. Usually in the West it's because a married priest in another church converted. For example, we have a married Romanian Catholic priest at our church, who converted from Romanian Orthodoxy.

An example how Vatican ignores its canon law ^

Yes. You call it oikonomia, IIRC.
Not that we don't.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Tony on December 23, 2012, 03:35:35 PM
Where in the Scriptures is that? St Peter himself was married.

Isn't the Roman Catholic practice of not allowing Priests to marry actually closer to the Apostolic Tradition opposed to the Orthodox practice of allowing them to marry? The Scriptures make it very clear that a Priest is to be a single man. Why do we allow Priests to marry?
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Wyatt on December 23, 2012, 03:43:30 PM
Where in the Scriptures is that? St Peter himself was married.

Isn't the Roman Catholic practice of not allowing Priests to marry actually closer to the Apostolic Tradition opposed to the Orthodox practice of allowing them to marry? The Scriptures make it very clear that a Priest is to be a single man. Why do we allow Priests to marry?
Are we going with sola scriptura when it's convenient? I'm not sure how crucial scriptural backing is when speaking of disciplines rather than doctrines or dogmas.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on December 23, 2012, 04:09:27 PM
Where in the Scriptures is that? St Peter himself was married.

Isn't the Roman Catholic practice of not allowing Priests to marry actually closer to the Apostolic Tradition opposed to the Orthodox practice of allowing them to marry? The Scriptures make it very clear that a Priest is to be a single man. Why do we allow Priests to marry?
Are we going with sola scriptura when it's convenient? I'm not sure how crucial scriptural backing is when speaking of disciplines rather than doctrines or dogmas.
Tony's not advocating what you think he is. He merely offered a corrective to JamesR's erroneous statement that an unmarried priesthood is mandated in the Scriptures.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Deacon Lance on December 23, 2012, 08:40:39 PM
Why can't the married Christians be the priests in Catholic Church?
They can.  An unmarried presbyterate is a discipline of the Latin Catholic Church, but they have exceptions.  Most of the Eastern Catholic Churches have a married presbyterate just as their Orthodox counterparts.

And the Pittsburgh Eparchy of the Ruthenians has ordained how many married men to the priesthood?  I know one or two have been ordained in other eparchies.  But it's not the standard practice yet and yinz have had a long time since Data cum fuerit ( I think that's the name of it).
None ordained but we do have a few ministering.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: ialmisry on December 23, 2012, 08:45:18 PM
Why can't the married Christians be the priest in Catholic Church?

Because the Western Church has always had a perverted view of marriage.
Unfortunately, when I look at the annulment situation in the RCC, I have to agree with your opinion here. A while back, a beautiful Lutheran lady appeared on the "60 minutes" program. She said that she had married a Roman Catholic man about 16 years ago and she agreed to raise her children Catholics, which she did. She followed all the Catholic rules and married the Catholic man in the Catholic Church according to the Catholic ceremony. Then after 15 years of marriage, her husband had been unfaithful to the marriage and became involved with a younger woman. He then wanted out of the marriage and applied for an annulment which he then got. The Lutheran lady said that she is suing the Catholic Church for fraud and deception as the Catholic Church had deceived her for 15 years leaving her with the impression that she was married, whereas now, after 15 or so years, the Catholic Church says that she was never married validly or sacramentally. Why then did they require that she go through all of the Catholic ceremony and require her to promise to raise her children as Catholics, when she was never really married in the first place. This was mendacious and fraudulent according to her lawsuit against the RCC  and according to her testimony on the program. She that that this process of annulment would never have come up, except for the fact that her husband had been unfaithful to the marriage. She said that she was OK with a divorce, which declares that there was a marriage, but now they wanted to break up and divorce, but that she was not OK with the idea that for all these years she was never married sacramentally. She said that this annulment idea was a huge insult to her character as a Christian and as a Lutheran, since she never would live with a man without being officially, validly and sacramentally married to him in the eyes of God. Sixteen (approximately) years ago,  the RCC  had her go through a Catholic ceremony and mendaciously and falsely declared that she was married and this was a huge fraud to get her to live with a man for 15 years without being married to him. Now according to the complaint,  the authorities of the RCC say that there was no marriage in the first place.
Needless to say, I hope she wins the lawsuit.  Case law suggests she might.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: ialmisry on December 23, 2012, 08:48:16 PM
Where in the Scriptures is that? St Peter himself was married.

Isn't the Roman Catholic practice of not allowing Priests to marry actually closer to the Apostolic Tradition opposed to the Orthodox practice of allowing them to marry? The Scriptures make it very clear that a Priest is to be a single man. Why do we allow Priests to marry?
Are we going with sola scriptura when it's convenient? I'm not sure how crucial scriptural backing is when speaking of disciplines rather than doctrines or dogmas.
JamesR made a sola scriptura argument for the Vatican's mandated celibacy.  We just showed no such basis can be found in the Scriptura.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Deacon Lance on December 23, 2012, 09:13:20 PM
After the Melkite Greek Catholic Patriarch had ordained a married man as a priest in his diocese, he got a letter from Pope Paul VI in 1978 which declared that the ordination was illicit and that the priestly faculties were removed. It was reported that the Pope said that he suspended the application of the general principle of preservation of Eastern traditions. If the Pope decides to suspend an official agreement with the Eastern Catholic Churches to preserve their traditions, then should the Orthodox be somewhat dubious or wary about a reunion with Rome?
See: http://orthocath.wordpress.com/2011/10/22/repost-can-east-west-coexist-with-married-priests-2/[/quote]

The same thing happened in Canada in 1988.  The priests are serving.  If you read the article in full you will see Rome no longer even bothers wth suspensions they just ignore it.  A lot of it depends on how much a bishop is willing to stand up to Rome.  Those that have not backed down Rome leaves alone. 

Of course the Orthodox should be dubious.  But I suppose the Pope and Curia know the chances of reunion are somewhere around nil so they worry about how the 99% of the Church will be affected by the 1%.  I don't think it is right and on principle alone Rome should declare we have the right to ordain married men anywhere.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: podkarpatska on December 23, 2012, 09:53:55 PM
One of our priests from ACROD, Fr. James Dutko, represented the Orthodox position at the recent seminar held in Rome last month, sponsored by the Australian Catholic University and the Sheptytsky Institute of Eastern Christian Studies at St Paul University in Ottawa, Canada. Fr. Jim's account of the seminar, and excerpts from his presentation, is found at " Mandated Celibacy Among US Eastern Catholic Priests Theme of Seminar in Rome" http://acrod.org/news/releases/rome-conference

The crux of Father Jim's presentation mirrored what Deacon Lance wrote - How can the Orthodox trust Rome on serious theological matters under discussion when Rome can not keep its word to her own Eastern Churches regarding the disciplinary, non-dogmatic rule of celibacy or non-celibacy among the clergy? Perhaps of more importance to the Orthodox is how long can honest and faithful  Eastern Catholics continue to reward the Vatican with loyalty when they are continually treated like the odd stepchild? Rome has never understood how critical this issue is to her Eastern Catholics for to them the celibacy issue is the canary in the mine shaft - a warning of the true intentions of many within the Roman Church and a sign of cultural imperialism being exercised by Rome under the guise of theology or even doctrine.

Frankly, there is a movement troubling to the Orthodox and the Eastern Catholics now underway within some 'conservative' segments of the Roman church to attempt to 'validate' the statementas referenced earlier in this thread by James R regarding celibacy and the Apostolic priesthood. It was rumored that Seminarians from the Russicum and the Oriental Institute (the colleges of the Vatican University dedicated to the studies of the Eastern Church) were discouraged from attending the seminar, although many did attend. Also, one of the presenters, Fr. Basil Petra, a Latin-rite priest and a professor of theology at the Catholic University at Florence is a strong advocate in defense of the married presbyteriate and his works, while available in Florence are 'proscribed'(i.e. 'banned')  within Rome itself.

As to the argument that in countries where the Latin Rite is the overwhelming majority of Catholics that allowing the married clergy of the 'Easterners' to exist would somehow 'scandalize' the Roman faithful - that is absurd. So - the Polish Catholics can't handle married Greek Catholic priests but say the Slovak or Czech Roman Catholics can handle it? My cousin is a married Greek Catholic priest in Plsen, Czech Republic - are the Roman Catholics there somehow 'superior' to those in say, Pittsburgh or Warsaw? Nothing has changed since the days of St. Alexis and Archbishop Ireland and Bishop Orestes Chornock and Bishop Basil Takach.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: stanley123 on December 24, 2012, 05:42:23 AM
...Rome should declare we have the right to ordain married men anywhere.
What happens if Rome does not declare such and suspends an official agreement made with Eastern Catholics to preserve the traditions of the Eastern Church?
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Cyrillic on December 24, 2012, 08:44:07 AM
and suspends an official agreement made with Eastern Catholics to preserve the traditions of the Eastern Church?

 ???
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Peter J on December 24, 2012, 09:39:43 AM
Why can't the married Christians be the priests in Catholic Church?

You've got it backwards. Married non-Christians are the ones who can't be priests in the Catholic Church.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: podkarpatska on December 24, 2012, 09:54:08 AM
...Rome should declare we have the right to ordain married men anywhere.
What happens if Rome does not declare such and suspends an official agreement made with Eastern Catholics to preserve the traditions of the Eastern Church?

It happened at least twice in North America. Then you get the OCA, via the Metropolia  and ACROD following the path set out upon by St. Alexis and many others.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Peter J on December 24, 2012, 12:00:40 PM
Married men can become priests in both the Eastern and Western Churches. It's not as common in the West as in the East but it does happen. Usually in the West it's because a married priest in another church converted. For example, we have a married Romanian Catholic priest at our church, who converted from Romanian Orthodoxy.

However, priests must be married *before* they're ordained, in both East and West. A single priest can't just go out and join Match.com, AFAIK.

Good grief - ok just to clarify, this Romanian Catholic priest converted from Romanian Orthodox. He's still Romanian,  not Roman.

FWIW, I didn't get what Michal was complaining about. Even if the priest did become Roman-Rite Catholic (Latin Catholic) that would not be a violation of canon law. (Apparently, Michal, you want all Catholic converts-from-Orthodoxy to be forced to join an Eastern Catholic Church. Eh?  ??? ::) >:()

But I do have a different objection: it seems to me (although admittedly I don't know the priest in question) that reason he can be a married priest is because he's an Eastern Catholic, NOT because he's ex-Orthodox.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: ialmisry on December 24, 2012, 12:12:49 PM
Married men can become priests in both the Eastern and Western Churches. It's not as common in the West as in the East but it does happen. Usually in the West it's because a married priest in another church converted. For example, we have a married Romanian Catholic priest at our church, who converted from Romanian Orthodoxy.

However, priests must be married *before* they're ordained, in both East and West. A single priest can't just go out and join Match.com, AFAIK.

Good grief - ok just to clarify, this Romanian Catholic priest converted from Romanian Orthodox. He's still Romanian,  not Roman.

FWIW, I didn't get what Michal was complaining about. Even if the priest did become Roman-Rite Catholic (Latin Catholic) that would not be a violation of canon law. (Apparently, Michal, you want all Catholic converts-from-Orthodoxy to be forced to join an Eastern Catholic Church. Eh?  ??? ::) >:()
That is the rule that the Vatican has set up.

But I do have a different objection: it seems to me (although admittedly I don't know the priest in question) that reason he can be a married priest is because he's an Eastern Catholic, NOT because he's ex-Orthodox.
The sharply worded rebuke the Italian Conference of Bishops sent to their Romanian Major-Archbishop says otherwise.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: mike on December 24, 2012, 12:32:52 PM
FWIW, I didn't get what Michal was complaining about. Even if the priest did become Roman-Rite Catholic (Latin Catholic) that would not be a violation of canon law. (Apparently, Michal, you want all Catholic converts-from-Orthodoxy to be forced to join an Eastern Catholic Church. Eh?  ??? ::) >:()

It will be. Members of Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Nestorian Churches who convert to the Roman Church are obliged by Roman Canon Law to join the Eastern Rite Church corresponding to the one they leave.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Peter J on December 24, 2012, 12:37:00 PM
Married men can become priests in both the Eastern and Western Churches. It's not as common in the West as in the East but it does happen. Usually in the West it's because a married priest in another church converted. For example, we have a married Romanian Catholic priest at our church, who converted from Romanian Orthodoxy.

However, priests must be married *before* they're ordained, in both East and West. A single priest can't just go out and join Match.com, AFAIK.

Good grief - ok just to clarify, this Romanian Catholic priest converted from Romanian Orthodox. He's still Romanian,  not Roman.

FWIW, I didn't get what Michal was complaining about. Even if the priest did become Roman-Rite Catholic (Latin Catholic) that would not be a violation of canon law. (Apparently, Michal, you want all Catholic converts-from-Orthodoxy to be forced to join an Eastern Catholic Church. Eh?  ??? ::) >:()
That is the rule that the Vatican has set up.

The "rule that the Vatican has set up" allows a convert to request to join a different sui iuris church. So even if the priest in question had joined the Latin Church (although of course theistgal has clarified that that isn't what happened) it wouldn't justify Michal saying that "that is a violation of Roman Catholic canon law".
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: mike on December 24, 2012, 01:10:52 PM
Really?

Quote from: http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG1199/_PZ.HTM
Baptized non-Catholics coming into full communion with the Catholic Church should retain and practice their own rite everywhere in the world and should observe it as much as humanly possible. Thus, they are to be enrolled in the Church sui iuris of the same rite with due regard for the right of approaching the Apostolic See in special cases of persons, communities or regions.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Peter J on December 24, 2012, 01:40:45 PM
Really?

Quote from: http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG1199/_PZ.HTM
Baptized non-Catholics coming into full communion with the Catholic Church should retain and practice their own rite everywhere in the world and should observe it as much as humanly possible. Thus, they are to be enrolled in the Church sui iuris of the same rite with due regard for the right of approaching the Apostolic See in special cases of persons, communities or regions.

Did you read the whole quote?
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: ialmisry on December 24, 2012, 01:44:50 PM
Really?

Quote from: http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG1199/_PZ.HTM
Baptized non-Catholics coming into full communion with the Catholic Church should retain and practice their own rite everywhere in the world and should observe it as much as humanly possible. Thus, they are to be enrolled in the Church sui iuris of the same rite with due regard for the right of approaching the Apostolic See in special cases of persons, communities or regions.

Did you read the whole quote?
Since he posted the entire canon, evidently yes.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: TheMathematician on December 24, 2012, 02:45:29 PM
Really?

Quote from: http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG1199/_PZ.HTM
Baptized non-Catholics coming into full communion with the Catholic Church should retain and practice their own rite everywhere in the world and should observe it as much as humanly possible. Thus, they are to be enrolled in the Church sui iuris of the same rite with due regard for the right of approaching the Apostolic See in special cases of persons, communities or regions.

Did you read the whole quote?

Even if an Orthodox Christian becomes catholic, he is still a member of his sui  iuris that corresponds to his former Orthodox Church. Stop. Peroid. End of Story.

Even if he does everything in the latin church, he is still by rule eastern catholic
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: theistgal on December 24, 2012, 06:14:18 PM
I don't know what any of this has to do with the OP's original question, though.  ::)
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: biro on December 24, 2012, 06:17:42 PM
I am sort of hoping the RCC will allow married priests in all of its aegis before too long. I've always kinda wanted to go to a deacon's wedding. :)
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: theistgal on December 24, 2012, 06:23:37 PM
Really?

Quote from: http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG1199/_PZ.HTM
Baptized non-Catholics coming into full communion with the Catholic Church should retain and practice their own rite everywhere in the world and should observe it as much as humanly possible. Thus, they are to be enrolled in the Church sui iuris of the same rite with due regard for the right of approaching the Apostolic See in special cases of persons, communities or regions.

Did you read the whole quote?

Even if an Orthodox Christian becomes catholic, he is still a member of his sui  iuris that corresponds to his former Orthodox Church. Stop. Peroid. End of Story.

Even if he does everything in the latin church, he is still by rule eastern catholic

Yes, at first, but he may then request permission from the bishop if he wants to switch to another sui iuris rite, just as any other Catholic may.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Shanghaiski on December 24, 2012, 09:55:07 PM
I am sort of hoping the RCC will allow married priests in all of its aegis before too long. I've always kinda wanted to go to a deacon's wedding. :)

Could deacons even get married under RCC rules? They cannot under Orthodox.

In college, I heard an RCC priest say how he'd prefer single women priests to married priests. His justification had something to do with time commitments.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: LBK on December 24, 2012, 10:14:35 PM

In college, I heard an RCC priest say how he'd prefer single women priests to married priests. His justification had something to do with time commitments.

This is just so full of WRONG and IGNORANT that I don't know where to start ....  :P :P ::)
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: TheMathematician on December 25, 2012, 01:52:59 AM
I am sort of hoping the RCC will allow married priests in all of its aegis before too long. I've always kinda wanted to go to a deacon's wedding. :)

Could deacons even get married under RCC rules? They cannot under Orthodox.

In college, I heard an RCC priest say how he'd prefer single women priests to married priests. His justification had something to do with time commitments.

they cant, but married men may become deacons
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: mike on December 25, 2012, 06:07:52 AM
Yes, at first, but he may then request permission from the bishop if he wants to switch to another sui iuris rite, just as any other Catholic may.

From both bishops or the Pope (unless there are no bishops for two rites in the area).
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Peter J on December 25, 2012, 09:01:54 AM
Really?

Quote from: http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG1199/_PZ.HTM
Baptized non-Catholics coming into full communion with the Catholic Church should retain and practice their own rite everywhere in the world and should observe it as much as humanly possible. Thus, they are to be enrolled in the Church sui iuris of the same rite with due regard for the right of approaching the Apostolic See in special cases of persons, communities or regions.

Did you read the whole quote?

Even if an Orthodox Christian becomes catholic, he is still a member of his sui  iuris that corresponds to his former Orthodox Church. Stop. Peroid. End of Story.

Even if he does everything in the latin church, he is still by rule eastern catholic

Yes, at first, but he may then request permission from the bishop if he wants to switch to another sui iuris rite, just as any other Catholic may.

Actually, TheMathematician's statement isn't even true "at first". At least, not in every case b/c sometimes a convert is permitted to immediately join a different sui iuris church.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: mike on December 25, 2012, 12:26:44 PM
Actually, TheMathematician's statement isn't even true "at first". At least, not in every case b/c sometimes a convert is permitted to immediately join a different sui iuris church.

Proofs? I'm asking because your canon law says otherwise.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: theistgal on December 25, 2012, 02:29:55 PM
But just like in your church, canon law can be tweaked for pastoral reasons, on a case-by-case basis, because ultimately every convert is an individual. It's the bishop's decision, not just an automatic thing.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: mike on December 25, 2012, 02:35:59 PM
"Pastoral resons" = "diminishing the role of Eastern Catholic Churches"?
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: ialmisry on December 25, 2012, 02:41:42 PM
"Pastoral resons" = "diminishing the role of Eastern Catholic Churches"?
Don't the shepherds lead the lambs to slaughter?
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Peter J on December 25, 2012, 03:53:11 PM
"Pastoral resons" = "diminishing the role of Eastern Catholic Churches"?
So, do you think that allowing converts from Orthodoxy to Catholicism to choose which sui iuris church to join is "diminishing the role of Eastern Catholic Churches"? Wow.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Peter J on December 25, 2012, 03:59:18 PM
Actually, TheMathematician's statement isn't even true "at first". At least, not in every case b/c sometimes a convert is permitted to immediately join a different sui iuris church.

Proofs?

I've been told not to "cross-post", i.e. quote things that were said on a different forum.

I'm asking because your canon law says otherwise.

Could you quote the canon law that says that no convert to Catholicism can ever be permitted to join a church sui iuris other than the default one?
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: mike on December 25, 2012, 04:43:51 PM
So, do you think that allowing converts from Orthodoxy to Catholicism to choose which sui iuris church to join is "diminishing the role of Eastern Catholic Churches"? Wow.

Forcing them to join Latin Rite is diminishing the role of Eastern Catholic Churches.

Quote
I've been told not to "cross-post", i.e. quote things that were said on a different forum.

I don't think this will be the case here. Of course you can PM me them, too.

Quote
Could you quote the canon law that says that no convert to Catholicism can ever be permitted to join a church sui iuris other than the default one?

Converts to Roman Catholicism from Eastern Churches (EO, OO or Nestorian) are obliged to join their respective rites unless they have a permission from Pope to do otherwise. They also can change their sui iuris Church later but that requires approval from two bishops or a Pope.

That is theory. In practice, most of them join Latin Rite Church. That example shows the attitude of Vatican to its Eastern minions and their secondary position in happy Roman family.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: theistgal on December 25, 2012, 04:58:15 PM
"Pastoral resons" = "diminishing the role of Eastern Catholic Churches"?
Don't the shepherds lead the lambs to slaughter?

And a Merry Christmas to both of you as well.  ::)
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Peter J on December 25, 2012, 08:06:06 PM
So, do you think that allowing converts from Orthodoxy to Catholicism to choose which sui iuris church to join is "diminishing the role of Eastern Catholic Churches"? Wow.

Forcing them to join Latin Rite is diminishing the role of Eastern Catholic Churches.

Forcing them to join the Latin Rite?  ??? I'm guessing that even Isa doesn't know what you talking about now.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Peter J on December 25, 2012, 08:08:09 PM
Converts to Roman Catholicism from Eastern Churches (EO, OO or Nestorian) are obliged to join their respective rites unless they have a permission from Pope to do otherwise.
(emphasis added)

Thank you. Sometimes on this forum I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall(s). It's nice to see the occasional evidence that I'm not.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Peter J on December 25, 2012, 08:14:49 PM
THe unsourced assumption that I shall make, because i believe it to be true from what I have read: A married priest will never be the pastor of a parish, because something makes him ineligible to do so. Assistant priest, yes, pastor, no.
I don't believe that's true.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Peter J on December 25, 2012, 08:16:26 PM
It's really more like guidelines. Still, they must stick to the code.

Hang the code.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Peter J on December 26, 2012, 09:23:36 AM
It's easier to get advice from a married man on your marriage than it is to get marriage advice from a 23 year old "celibate" priest.

Okay, but what about a 27-year-old virgin who likes to hold the hands of superstitious old ladies?
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Kra-nion on May 15, 2013, 02:08:41 AM
#.. someone had to....1tim.4;1-4...........did you?
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Surnaturel on June 23, 2013, 12:57:37 AM
Why can't the married Christians be the priest in Catholic Church?

Because the Western Church has always had a perverted view of marriage.
Does it follow then that not allowing married bishops in the Eastern Church stems from a 'perverted view of marriage'?
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: TheMathematician on June 23, 2013, 01:06:19 AM
It's easier to get advice from a married man on your marriage than it is to get marriage advice from a 23 year old "celibate" priest.

Okay, but what about a 27-year-old virgin who likes to hold the hands of superstitious old ladies?

Thank you, for quoting Gran Torino, easily my favourite movie of all time. That reminds me, i need to rewatch it soon.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Peter J on June 24, 2013, 06:02:39 AM
Why can't the married Christians be the priest in Catholic Church?

Because the Western Church has always had a perverted view of marriage.
Does it follow then that not allowing married bishops in the Eastern Church stems from a 'perverted view of marriage'?

Good question. (It's not that disagree with the conclusion that married men should be admitted to the priesthood; but I hate when people use an anti-western argument to get to that conclusion.)
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Surnaturel on June 24, 2013, 10:52:55 AM
Why can't the married Christians be the priest in Catholic Church?

Because the Western Church has always had a perverted view of marriage.
Does it follow then that not allowing married bishops in the Eastern Church stems from a 'perverted view of marriage'?

Good question. (It's not that disagree with the conclusion that married men should be admitted to the priesthood; but I hate when people use an anti-western argument to get to that conclusion.)
I don't disagree that there is a place for married men in the priesthood, perhaps at the diocesan level. However, there is an intrinsic good in celibacy and devoting oneself to serving God and the parish without the added responsibilities of married life. With that being said, a married priest is just as capable and orthodox, and will prob take root in the Latin rite in some capacity in the next hundred years or so (my guess).
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: James2 on June 24, 2013, 12:04:50 PM
It does appear to be inconsistent that Rome makes it hard for married men to be ordained in the Eastern rites while at the same time it is facilitating the ordination of former Anglican clergy who are married.  It will be interesting to see if any married laymen are ever ordained in the Anglican use.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: ialmisry on June 24, 2013, 12:27:41 PM
Why can't the married Christians be the priest in Catholic Church?

Because the Western Church has always had a perverted view of marriage.
Does it follow then that not allowing married bishops in the Eastern Church stems from a 'perverted view of marriage'?

Good question. (It's not that disagree with the conclusion that married men should be admitted to the priesthood; but I hate when people use an anti-western argument to get to that conclusion.)
I don't disagree that there is a place for married men in the priesthood, perhaps at the diocesan level. However, there is an intrinsic good in celibacy and devoting oneself to serving God and the parish without the added responsibilities of married life. With that being said, a married priest is just as capable and orthodox, and will prob take root in the Latin rite in some capacity in the next hundred years or so (my guess).
There is an (actually, several) intrinsic good in marriage.  A reason why it, and not celibacy, is a sacrament.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: ialmisry on June 24, 2013, 12:29:03 PM
Why can't the married Christians be the priest in Catholic Church?

Because the Western Church has always had a perverted view of marriage.
Does it follow then that not allowing married bishops in the Eastern Church stems from a 'perverted view of marriage'?

Good question. (It's not that disagree with the conclusion that married men should be admitted to the priesthood; but I hate when people use an anti-western argument to get to that conclusion.)
The Vatican's treatment of those it has snatched from Orthodoxy in the East answers that question, Ea semper and all that.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Surnaturel on June 25, 2013, 11:50:01 AM
Why can't the married Christians be the priest in Catholic Church?

Because the Western Church has always had a perverted view of marriage.
Does it follow then that not allowing married bishops in the Eastern Church stems from a 'perverted view of marriage'?

Good question. (It's not that disagree with the conclusion that married men should be admitted to the priesthood; but I hate when people use an anti-western argument to get to that conclusion.)
I don't disagree that there is a place for married men in the priesthood, perhaps at the diocesan level. However, there is an intrinsic good in celibacy and devoting oneself to serving God and the parish without the added responsibilities of married life. With that being said, a married priest is just as capable and orthodox, and will prob take root in the Latin rite in some capacity in the next hundred years or so (my guess).
There is an (actually, several) intrinsic good in marriage.  A reason why it, and not celibacy, is a sacrament.
Yet celibacy is a requirement to be a bishop so surely there intrinsic goods in it as well that make one more suitable to pastor the Church as a bishop.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on June 25, 2013, 01:47:55 PM
Yet celibacy is a requirement to be a bishop so surely there intrinsic goods in it as well that make one more suitable to pastor the Church as a bishop.

While I'll defer to ialmisry wrt what he meant, I think it's important to make a distinction.  AFAIK, the requirement is not for a bishop to be "celibate", but a "monastic".  Obviously, celibate chastity is a part of the monastic life, but it's not because of that alone that we choose bishops from among the monks.  Monks lead lives of prayer, and we want people grounded in a life of prayer to hold such positions in the Church (e.g., there are canons requiring a candidate for ordination to have committed the Psalter to memory...that's not because rote memorisation of Scripture is a requirement, but rather because it means they are faithful to frequent and daily prayer).  Monks live in community, they know how to be obedient and also, if they've held office in a monastery, how to govern souls in obedience to them, they know how to manage the goods and properties of the community, etc., etc.  Inasmuch as a monastery is a microcosm of the Church, monastic experience is a good thing for bishops to have.  It's not just about avoiding "defilement" by women. 

When "celibacy" is severed from "monasticism", as the RC's have done, there are bound to be problems.   
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: ialmisry on June 25, 2013, 01:50:20 PM
Why can't the married Christians be the priest in Catholic Church?

Because the Western Church has always had a perverted view of marriage.
Does it follow then that not allowing married bishops in the Eastern Church stems from a 'perverted view of marriage'?

Good question. (It's not that disagree with the conclusion that married men should be admitted to the priesthood; but I hate when people use an anti-western argument to get to that conclusion.)
I don't disagree that there is a place for married men in the priesthood, perhaps at the diocesan level. However, there is an intrinsic good in celibacy and devoting oneself to serving God and the parish without the added responsibilities of married life. With that being said, a married priest is just as capable and orthodox, and will prob take root in the Latin rite in some capacity in the next hundred years or so (my guess).
There is an (actually, several) intrinsic good in marriage.  A reason why it, and not celibacy, is a sacrament.
Yet celibacy is a requirement to be a bishop so surely there intrinsic goods in it as well that make one more suitable to pastor the Church as a bishop.
If it were, Christ wouldn't have called married men as His Apostles-including "the Prince of the Apostles-nor would Scripture lay down in St. Paul's words that the bishop should be the husband of one wife.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on June 25, 2013, 03:36:50 PM
Yet celibacy is a requirement to be a bishop so surely there intrinsic goods in it as well that make one more suitable to pastor the Church as a bishop.

While I'll defer to ialmisry wrt what he meant, I think it's important to make a distinction.  AFAIK, the requirement is not for a bishop to be "celibate", but a "monastic".  Obviously, celibate chastity is a part of the monastic life, but it's not because of that alone that we choose bishops from among the monks.  Monks lead lives of prayer, and we want people grounded in a life of prayer to hold such positions in the Church (e.g., there are canons requiring a candidate for ordination to have committed the Psalter to memory...that's not because rote memorisation of Scripture is a requirement, but rather because it means they are faithful to frequent and daily prayer).  Monks live in community, they know how to be obedient and also, if they've held office in a monastery, how to govern souls in obedience to them, they know how to manage the goods and properties of the community, etc., etc.  Inasmuch as a monastery is a microcosm of the Church, monastic experience is a good thing for bishops to have.  It's not just about avoiding "defilement" by women. 

When "celibacy" is severed from "monasticism", as the RC's have done, there are bound to be problems.   

Actually, the only Ecumenical canons that we have set the standard at celibacy. Trullo (a) told married bishops to separate themselves from their wives if they wanted to continue being bishops and (b) told future bishops to do so before ordination. Theoretically, we have married bishops even today as in the case of priests whose wives had passed on and they were advanced to the episcopacy; my locum tenens, Archbishop Nikon of Boston is a case in point. I am saying this because I think our approach to Holy Matrimony is not "till death do us part" but for all eternity. In any case, it is also true that the practice in Eastern Orthodoxy has been to conflate celibacy and monasticism in two ways: first, select from amongst the monastics and you will likely have a person who is also celibate, and secondly, if the person is celibate but not a monastic, have him take at least the first vows--please note that no bishop is required to live in a monastery.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: WPM on June 25, 2013, 04:08:09 PM
I would think that the Priest had to be single & celibate.
Title: Re: the married Chrisitans cannot be the priest?
Post by: mike on June 25, 2013, 05:33:11 PM
In any case, it is also true that the practice in Eastern Orthodoxy has been to conflate celibacy and monasticism in two ways: first, select from amongst the monastics and you will likely have a person who is also celibate, and secondly, if the person is celibate but not a monastic, have him take at least the first vows--please note that no bishop is required to live in a monastery.

Unless you are Antiochian.