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Moderated Forums => Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion => Orthodox-Catholic Discussion => Topic started by: walter1234 on November 24, 2012, 02:54:06 PM

Title: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: walter1234 on November 24, 2012, 02:54:06 PM
Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?


And how do RCC Christians view Her corrupted history?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 24, 2012, 03:00:49 PM
And how do RCC Christians view Her corrupted history?

What do you mean with that? Don't you think the EO and the protestants persecuted opponents?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: walter1234 on November 24, 2012, 03:11:50 PM
Power struggle between Emperor and Pope, crusades holy war, Inquisitio Haeretucae Pravitatis ,Indulgence,etc?

I heard reformers kill oppenent.How about EO?Can you tell me when and why EO persecuted the oppenents?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 24, 2012, 03:15:24 PM
I heard reformers kill oppenent.How about EO?Can you tell me wenthen and why EO persecuted the oppenents?

I bet the Oriental Orthodox could tell you some stories about that.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: walter1234 on November 24, 2012, 03:18:14 PM
You mean EO persecused OO Christian in the past?  :o
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 24, 2012, 03:21:11 PM
You mean EO persecused OO Christian in the past?  :o

Yes. Exile, torture, murder, mass deportations etc.

Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Dominika on November 24, 2012, 03:23:12 PM
Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?

My very personal opinion

It's so big because it had not to fight with Muslims; moreover, it was spreading the faith also by sword (especially in the period of aggressive colonisation)

It's so attractive because it's easier than Orthodoxy and more traditional than Protestantism

You mean EO persecused OO Christian in the past?  :o

I know in Egypt yes.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: walter1234 on November 24, 2012, 03:28:59 PM
You mean EO persecused OO Christian in the past?  :o

Yes. Exile, torture, murder, mass deportations etc.




How does EO Christians view all these thing?Why would God allow His true church do all these horrtbile thing?

(For protestant, we do not need to care about how reformers persecute the opponents,we only need to follow the teaching of bible.There is no visible and infallible church .All men who follow the teaching of bible are part of the church)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: FormerReformer on November 24, 2012, 03:30:09 PM
You mean EO persecused OO Christian in the past?  :o

Persecution tends to go around. RCs persecuted EOs, EOs massacred the Latins in Constantinople, RCs persecuted Protestants, Protestants persecuted RCs, EOs persecuted the Old Believers, EOs persecuted the OOs, OO Eutyches was very mean indeed to EO St Flavian. And every so often, the EO and Armenians in Jerusalem go at it with broom-sticks.

You mean EO persecused OO Christian in the past?  :o

Yes. Exile, torture, murder, mass deportations etc.




How does EO Christians view all these thing?Why would God allow His true church do all these horrtbile thing?

(For protestant, we do not need to care about how reformers persecute the opponents,we only need to follow the teaching of bible.There is no visible church .All men who follow the teaching of bible are part of the church)

It is sadly human nature that believing oneself to be right often goes hand in hand with believing that forcing others to believe is right. Though it is worth it to note that just about all these instances it was less the actual churches (hierarchy-wise) involved and more the State. When the state is officially a certain religion it has reason to be suspicious of other religions- many times other religions will attempt a coup.

It is also important to note that there are many periods in EO history where the "church" has done horrible things (monothelitism, iconoclasm) while the Church has abstained. Wheat and tares.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 24, 2012, 03:38:40 PM
OO Eutyches was very mean indeed to EO St Flavian.

 :o
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: walter1234 on November 24, 2012, 03:41:24 PM
EO also persecuted OO and old believers .It is sinful. It is indeeded corrupted and fall.

Why does EO still believe and teach "Infallible church"?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: choy on November 24, 2012, 03:51:41 PM
I heard reformers kill oppenent.How about EO?Can you tell me when and why EO persecuted the oppenents?

Ask any Ukrainian Catholic ;)

St. Josaphat was martyred by an Orthodox Christian mob for being Ukrainian Catholic.  And of course the ROC played along with the Soviets and they took control of the properties of the Ukrainian Catholic Church in Ukraine during the Soviet era.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Alpo on November 24, 2012, 03:52:20 PM
I'm pretty sure every single historical religious groups has persecuted people of other faiths at some point of history. If there is some group who didn't it's because they never had the chance due to politics of their time.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: choy on November 24, 2012, 03:53:56 PM
Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?


And how do RCC Christians view Her corrupted history?

Orthodoxy is little known to most.  RCC has the "marketing brand power" so to speak.  When we speak of Churches with Apostolic lineage and history, she is easily the most recognizable.  And there's a RCC parish everywhere, easy to inquire and become a part of.  Most towns don't have Orthodox parishes, and if there is one it's likely one that is very ethnic and wouldn't attract people who does not belong to that ethnicity.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 24, 2012, 03:54:15 PM
I heard reformers kill oppenent.How about EO?Can you tell me when and why EO persecuted the oppenents?

Ask any Ukrainian Catholic ;)

St. Josaphat was martyred by an Orthodox Christian mob for being Ukrainian Catholic.

Josaphat martyred a whole lot of Orthodox Christians as well.


Orthodoxy is little known to most.  RCC has the "marketing brand power" so to speak.  When we speak of Churches with Apostolic lineage and history, she is easily the most recognizable.  And there's a RCC parish everywhere, easy to inquire and become a part of.

This. When I discovered that protestantism was nonsense the first thing I did was studying RC-ism.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: choy on November 24, 2012, 03:54:46 PM
I'm pretty sure every single historical religious groups has persecuted people of other faiths at some point of history. If there is some group who didn't it's because they never had the chance due to politics of their time.

True! We're all humans.  It is not the fault of the faith, but rather the people who misinterpret and misrepresent the faith.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: choy on November 24, 2012, 03:55:42 PM
I heard reformers kill oppenent.How about EO?Can you tell me when and why EO persecuted the oppenents?

Ask any Ukrainian Catholic ;)

St. Josaphat was martyred by an Orthodox Christian mob for being Ukrainian Catholic. 

Josaphat martyred a whole lot of Orthodox Christians as well.

I guess St. Stephen and St. Paul will guide them in heaven on how to get along there ;)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: walter1234 on November 24, 2012, 03:58:35 PM

This. When I discovered that protestantism was nonsense the first thing I did was studying RC-ism.

Can you explain more about this in detail?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: walter1234 on November 24, 2012, 04:03:21 PM
I'm pretty sure every single historical religious groups has persecuted people of other faiths at some point of history. If there is some group who didn't it's because they never had the chance due to politics of their time.



Why don't God protect His True Church not to be tempered by sin and evil? Why don't God stop His true Church to do so immediately?

The gate of Hade would not overcome God's true Church, even just a momnet.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 24, 2012, 04:04:18 PM

This. When I discovered that protestantism was nonsense the first thing I did was studying RC-ism.

Can you explain more about this in detail?

Two things started my journey:

1) Sola Scriptura, one of the doctrinal pillars of protestantism, says that every doctrine should come from Scripture (alone), but Scripture never says this, thus Sola Scriptura contradicts itself.

2) When I started reading the Church Fathers I found out that the 1st and 2nd century Church taught the Real Presence in the Eucharist and had bishops. Read St. Ignatius' epistles for example.

So after that I started studying the only Church I really knew who taught this: the RCC. But then I found out about the Orthodox Church and then I started comparing the two. In the end I found out (through reading history and the Church Fathers) that the Orthodox Church is the Church found on Pentecost in 33AD by Jesus Christ.

I'm pretty sure every single historical religious groups has persecuted people of other faiths at some point of history. If there is some group who didn't it's because they never had the chance due to politics of their time.

Why don't God protect His True Church not to be tempered by sin and evil? Why don't God stop His true Church to do so ?


There has always been sin and evil amongst the disciples of Christ. Remember Judas?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: walter1234 on November 24, 2012, 04:10:03 PM

This. When I discovered that protestantism was nonsense the first thing I did was studying RC-ism.

Can you explain more about this in detail?

Two things started my journey:

1) Sola Scriptura, one of the doctrinal pillars of protestantism, says that every doctrine should come from Scripture (alone), but Scripture never says this, thus Sola Scriptura contradicts itself.

2) When I started reading the Church Fathers I found out that the 1st and 2nd century Church taught the Real Presence in the Eucharist and had bishops. Read St. Ignatius' epistles for example.

So after that I started studying the only Church I really knew who taught this: the RCC. But then I found out about the Orthodox Church and then I started comparing the two. In the end I found out (through reading history and the Church Fathers) that the Orthodox Church is the Church found on Pentecost in 33AD by Jesus Christ.

I'm pretty sure every single historical religious groups has persecuted people of other faiths at some point of history. If there is some group who didn't it's because they never had the chance due to politics of their time.

Why don't God protect His True Church not to be tempered by sin and evil? Why don't God stop His true Church to do so ?


There has always been sin and evil amongst the disciples of Christ. Remember Judas?


I know that it is totally nonsense that God abandoned His Church for more than 1300 Year.ANd then suddenly, He asked a German Monk to make a new Church and teach some new "truth' which cannot be found in 1st- 16 th century.


Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Shanghaiski on November 24, 2012, 04:13:11 PM
The Church is not some museum of saints, but rather a hospital for sinners. People don't stop being flawed, tempted, sinful just because they convert or are baptized. There's evil in the world, there's evil in our hearts. It's not the Church's fault. The Church is not some bizarre abstraction of holiness. If you want bizarre abstractions, there's a plethora of weird religions and philosophies to choose from. But, if you want to repent, and to try your hardest every day to fight the evil in you and the evil in the world, to be healed by God, to attempt to love God as best as you can despite your weakness and inability, then the Church is there for you.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Agabus on November 24, 2012, 04:18:34 PM
Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?

My very personal opinion

It's so big because it had not to fight with Muslims
Spanish Catholics might quibble with that.

But on the larger front, that's more or less right. Catholicism was able to flourish in the West with little real competition from other religions (the exception being Judaism), and when colonial expansion began, the colonizers took their religion with them, eventually taking it worldwide.

Because of a cultural heritage of Catholicism (and western imperialism), the RCC is much more available for potential converts. In the west, the EO and OO have spread largely through immigration, though we have had notable missionary activity.

Quote
It's so attractive because it's easier than Orthodoxy and more traditional than Protestantism
'Ease' is a matter measure and perspective. A number of Catholics I have met can express with some consternation at what they consider the laxity of Orthodoxy. As much as people here like to argue that the difference between Orthodoxy and Catholicism is that Catholicism is all about rules...



Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: walter1234 on November 24, 2012, 04:37:44 PM
It seems that Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic are all fallen in certain point of their history. :-[ Catholic just more corrupt than Orthodox and Protestant in her history.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 24, 2012, 04:39:09 PM
It seems that Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic are all fallen in certain point of their history. :-[ Catholic just more corrupt than Orthodox and Protestant in her history.

I don't recall the Oriental Orthodox persecuting anyone, but do you think this is a good way of measuring truth?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: walter1234 on November 24, 2012, 04:42:51 PM
It seems that Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic are all fallen in certain point of their history. :-[ Catholic just more corrupt than Orthodox and Protestant in her history.

I can't recall the Oriental Orthodox persecuting anyone, but do you think this is a good way of measuring truth?

 Church as whole could perscute the oppenents together. To me, it seems that Church as a whole can still fall.  :'(
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Shanghaiski on November 24, 2012, 04:44:22 PM
It seems that Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic are all fallen in certain point of their history. :-[ Catholic just more corrupt than Orthodox and Protestant in her history.

I don't recall the Oriental Orthodox persecuting anyone, but do you think this is a good way of measuring truth?

For the most part the OO didn't have power, except in principalities (particularly Armenian). I'm sure if we went into their sources in their languages, we'd find more than just the EO saints murdered by OO mobs. Little has been translated in English, after all.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 24, 2012, 04:46:02 PM
It seems that Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic are all fallen in certain point of their history. :-[ Catholic just more corrupt than Orthodox and Protestant in her history.

I can't recall the Oriental Orthodox persecuting anyone, but do you think this is a good way of measuring truth?

 Church as whole could perscute the oppenents together. To me, it seems that Church as a whole can still fall.  :'(

Those persecutions were carried out by individuals in the Church, it was never done by the Church itself
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: William on November 24, 2012, 04:46:14 PM
You mean EO persecused OO Christian in the past?  :o

Yes. Exile, torture, murder, mass deportations etc.



Or so it is claimed.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 24, 2012, 04:48:07 PM
You mean EO persecused OO Christian in the past?  :o

Yes. Exile, torture, murder, mass deportations etc.


Or so it is claimed.

It can hardly be denied. Especially Justinian, Maurice and Heraclius were tough on the Orientals.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: William on November 24, 2012, 04:49:13 PM
You mean EO persecused OO Christian in the past?  :o

Yes. Exile, torture, murder, mass deportations etc.


Or so it is claimed.

It can hardly be denied.


Unless you're the type of person who likes evidence with your polemical historical claims.  :)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: walter1234 on November 24, 2012, 04:49:52 PM
It seems that Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic are all fallen in certain point of their history. :-[ Catholic just more corrupt than Orthodox and Protestant in her history.

I can't recall the Oriental Orthodox persecuting anyone, but do you think this is a good way of measuring truth?

 Church as whole could perscute the oppenents together. To me, it seems that Church as a whole can still fall.  :'(

Those persecutions were carried out by individuals in the Church, it was never done by the Church itself
Not like catholic?The whole Catholic formed Crusades and slaughtered different cities in medieval?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 24, 2012, 04:50:48 PM
It seems that Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic are all fallen in certain point of their history. :-[ Catholic just more corrupt than Orthodox and Protestant in her history.

I can't recall the Oriental Orthodox persecuting anyone, but do you think this is a good way of measuring truth?

 Church as whole could perscute the oppenents together. To me, it seems that Church as a whole can still fall.  :'(

Those persecutions were carried out by individuals in the Church, it was never done by the Church itself
Not like catholic?The whole Catholic formed Crusades and slaughtered different cities in medieval?

Oh, I thought we were talking about the Orthodox Church. My bad.

You mean EO persecused OO Christian in the past?  :o

Yes. Exile, torture, murder, mass deportations etc.


Or so it is claimed.

It can hardly be denied.


Unless you're the type of person who likes evidence with your polemical historical claims.  :)

One of many passages of many books I could have quoted:

"[...] Severus fled into Egypt; and his friend, the eloquent Xenaias, who had escaped from the Nestorians of Persia, was suffocated in his exile by the Melchites of Paphlagonia. Fifty-four bishops were swept from their thrones, eight hundred ecclesiastics were cast into prison, and notwithstanding the ambiguous favor of Theodora, the Oriental flocks, deprived of their shepherds, must insensibly have been either famished or poisoned. In this spiritual distress, the expiring faction was revived, and united, and perpetuated, by the labors of a monk; and the name of James Baradaeus  has been preserved in the appellation of Jacobites, a familiar sound, which may startle the ear of an English reader. From the holy confessors in their prison of Constantinople, he received the powers of bishop of Edessa and apostle of the East, and the ordination of fourscore thousand bishops, priests, and deacons, is derived from the same inexhaustible source. The speed of the zealous missionary was promoted by the fleetest dromedaries of a devout chief of the Arabs; the doctrine and discipline of the Jacobites were secretly established in the dominions of Justinian; and each Jacobite was compelled to violate the laws and to hate the Roman legislator. The successors of Severus, while they lurked in convents or villages, while they sheltered their proscribed heads in the caverns of hermits, or the tents of the Saracens, still asserted, as they now assert, their indefeasible right to the title, the rank, and the prerogatives of patriarch of Antioch: under the milder yoke of the infidels, they reside about a league from Merdin etc. (Edward Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, chapter 47, "The Jacobites")

And for a more modern source. (http://books.google.nl/books?id=Qf8mrHjfZRoC&lpg=PA600&ots=1d5WYp1mOv&dq=persecution%20of%20the%20monophysites&hl=nl&pg=PA600#v=onepage&q&f=false)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: walter1234 on November 24, 2012, 04:54:02 PM
You mean EO persecused OO Christian in the past?  :o

Yes. Exile, torture, murder, mass deportations etc.


Or so it is claimed.

It can hardly be denied.


Unless you're the type of person who likes evidence with your polemical historical claims.  :)

The whole Catholic formed Crusades and Slaugher the cities in Medieval. We can found in History. This can easily denied! 8)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: choy on November 24, 2012, 04:58:59 PM
It seems that Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic are all fallen in certain point of their history. :-[ Catholic just more corrupt than Orthodox and Protestant in her history.

We're all fallen as humans.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: walter1234 on November 24, 2012, 05:04:05 PM
It seems that Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic are all fallen in certain point of their history. :-[ Catholic just more corrupt than Orthodox and Protestant in her history.

I can't recall the Oriental Orthodox persecuting anyone, but do you think this is a good way of measuring truth?

 Church as whole could perscute the oppenents together. To me, it seems that Church as a whole can still fall.  :'(

Those persecutions were carried out by individuals in the Church, it was never done by the Church itself

Thoes persecution were only carried by some small groups in the Church, and the Church as a whole did not support with what these small groups did?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: William on November 24, 2012, 05:04:22 PM
Oh, I thought we were talking about the Orthodox Church. My bad.

You mean EO persecused OO Christian in the past?  :o

Yes. Exile, torture, murder, mass deportations etc.


Or so it is claimed.

It can hardly be denied.


Unless you're the type of person who likes evidence with your polemical historical claims.  :)

One of many passages of many books I could have quoted:

"[...] Severus fled into Egypt; and his friend, the eloquent Xenaias, who had escaped from the Nestorians of Persia, was suffocated in his exile by the Melchites of Paphlagonia. Fifty-four bishops were swept from their thrones, eight hundred ecclesiastics were cast into prison, and notwithstanding the ambiguous favor of Theodora, the Oriental flocks, deprived of their shepherds, must insensibly have been either famished or poisoned. In this spiritual distress, the expiring faction was revived, and united, and perpetuated, by the labors of a monk; and the name of James Baradaeus  has been preserved in the appellation of Jacobites, a familiar sound, which may startle the ear of an English reader. From the holy confessors in their prison of Constantinople, he received the powers of bishop of Edessa and apostle of the East, and the ordination of fourscore thousand bishops, priests, and deacons, is derived from the same inexhaustible source. The speed of the zealous missionary was promoted by the fleetest dromedaries of a devout chief of the Arabs; the doctrine and discipline of the Jacobites were secretly established in the dominions of Justinian; and each Jacobite was compelled to violate the laws and to hate the Roman legislator. The successors of Severus, while they lurked in convents or villages, while they sheltered their proscribed heads in the caverns of hermits, or the tents of the Saracens, still asserted, as they now assert, their indefeasible right to the title, the rank, and the prerogatives of patriarch of Antioch: under the milder yoke of the infidels, they reside about a league from Merdin etc. (Edward Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, chapter 47, "The Jacobites")

And for a more modern source. (http://books.google.nl/books?id=Qf8mrHjfZRoC&lpg=PA600&ots=1d5WYp1mOv&dq=persecution%20of%20the%20monophysites&hl=nl&pg=PA600#v=onepage&q&f=false)


Of course Gibbon cannot be challenged.  ;)

Where's the "mass deportations" and torture?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: dzheremi on November 24, 2012, 05:04:40 PM
For me, I went to the Catholic Church because: (1) There was one in the town I was living in at the time when I wanted to go back to church; (2) I had good memories of my time volunteering at an orphanage in Mexico that was run by the local Catholic priest in the village, who was a very holy, selfless man and impressed me greatly (also, Catholicism in Mexico, at least in smaller, poorer villages like the one I stayed in, is much closer to Orthodoxy in terms of its pastoral nature than it is in the USA, where people aren't as serious about their faith, usually); (3) My father's side of the family was all Mexican and Irish Catholics, so I felt like it fit well.

That's pretty much it. All personal reasons, I guess. I knew that Orthodoxy existed (I'd been to a Russian Orthodox Church before as part of a field trip in a Russian language class I took around age 19, and also to the historic Russian settlement of Ft. Ross, since I grew up in the closest town next to it, so it is well known and loved by everybody in area, whether they are Orthodox or not), but it wasn't until I found the Coptic Orthodox Church that I really felt drawn to it (odd, I know...what can I say, I am odd).

I think other people's reasons are right, too. Like in my home town if you're not going to be Protestant, the Catholic Church is the only game in town. And it didn't hurt that the first time I went there (c. age 22), the priest there stopped me on the way out the door. "Hi, I haven't seen you before. Is this your first time? What is your name?" And when I told him my full name he said "Ahh! I knew your grandfather, years ago. A wonderful man! It's so nice to see you!" (My grandfather passed away when I was eight, so it made a really good impression on me; God bless you, Fr. Devereaux, wherever you are, and however you actually spell your last name...  :-\)

You can say whatever you'd like about the RCC, but I'm glad I was there when I was there. I'm also glad I'm not there anymore, but I definitely don't regret it or think of it as something I could have skipped and still ended up where I am now. I don't know...God knows what He's doing. :laugh:
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Alpo on November 24, 2012, 05:10:02 PM
I don't recall the Oriental Orthodox persecuting anyone

The Imperial Church before Chalcedon didn't persecute anyone?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 24, 2012, 05:11:12 PM
Where's the "mass deportations" and torture?

Google St. Samuel the Confessor for the torture part. He's one among many.

Those persecutions were carried out by individuals in the Church, it was never done by the Church itself

The Imperial Church before Chalcedon didn't persecute anyone?

Yes, it did.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: walter1234 on November 24, 2012, 05:11:36 PM
Those persecutions were carried out by individuals in the Church, it was never done by the Church itself

The Imperial Church before Chalcedon didn't persecute anyone?
"The Imperial Church before Chalcedon "?? What is it?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 24, 2012, 05:13:17 PM
Those persecutions were carried out by individuals in the Church, it was never done by the Church itself

The Imperial Church before Chalcedon didn't persecute anyone?
"The Imperial Church before Chalcedon "?? What is it?

The Church before 451 AD.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Alpo on November 24, 2012, 05:17:56 PM
Those persecutions were carried out by individuals in the Church, it was never done by the Church itself

The Imperial Church before Chalcedon didn't persecute anyone?

Yes, it did.


If OOs identify with pre-Chalcedonian Church it follows that OOs have indeed persecuted people of other faiths.

Please note though that I'm trying to blame OOs for anything or to turn this into EO-OO debate.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: dzheremi on November 24, 2012, 05:21:11 PM
It might be a bit too late for such a disclaimer, Alpo.

Hey, maybe that's why the RCC is so attractive to people? Less fighting over what happened 1500 years ago! Of course, that's because the RCC is virtually unrecognizable in comparison to the first millennium church, so its collective memory doesn't usually go back that far, unless it's to quote Augustine or cherry pick some Eastern/Oriental saints in support of its current positions, but I digress... ;D
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: William on November 24, 2012, 05:23:42 PM
Where's the "mass deportations" and torture?

Google St. Samuel the Confessor for the torture part. He's one among many.

Cyrillic, that is hagiography.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 24, 2012, 05:25:04 PM
Where's the "mass deportations" and torture?

Google St. Samuel the Confessor for the torture part. He's one among many.

Cyrillic, that is hagiography.

It is. I was too lazy to look through Zachariah of Mytilene's Chronicles to copypaste one of the many examples. But look what I found in an old thread:

^He is, but in this context "OO Emperors" refer to those Emperors who rejected Chalcedon and persecuted its supporters. Are there any such Emperors?

Not in the Byzantine (Late Roman) Empire.

It's said that about one in five Byzantine emperors were ethnically Armenian, but none of them were OO.  They were all Chalcedonian.

Interestingly enough, the emperors who did the most vicious persecution against the Armenians were ones who were themselves ethnically Armenian.  maurice, in particular, decimated the Armenian population through death marches.  He's gone down in history as one of the worst villains in Armenian history.

But was this not in context with the Persian wars? Armenia was a Persian ally. The Romans and Persians were bitter enemies. Enemies in late antiquity didn't play any nicer than enemies in the 20th century. IIRC, the Armenians didn't reject Chalcedon formally until after Maurice's death.

maurice lived a century after the Armenians rejected Chalcedon at the Council of Dvin.

Regarding politics with Persia, maurice was very warm toward the Persians and was a personal friend of their king.  In fact maurice gave his daughter to the Persian king to add to his pagan harem.

It was probably his warm relations with the Persians that gave maurice the confidence to think he could eliminate the Armenians without any negative consequences.  The Byzantines always relied upon the Armenians to help them during times when the Persians attacked, and the Armenians always gave them that help.  An example was when the Persians stole the Holy Cross after maurice's death.  maurice's successor called upon the Armenians for help, and it was Armenian troops who actually captured the Cross for the Byzantines.  The Cross was then taken in procession across Armenia on its way to Constantinople.  That is the event we celebrate every year on September 14.  

It is important to note that this happened after maurice's persecution of the Armenians.  Although there was bad feeling against the Byzantines for what happened, the Armenians did not think twice about saving the Cross.

Anyway, maurice was good friends with the Persian king Khosrov, so he probably thought he did not need them.  In fact, he even wrote an infamous letter to the Persian king, asking for his help in getting rid of the Armenians:

Quote
In that period the Byzantine emperor ordered a letter written to the Iranian king. [It was] a complaint about the [45] princes of all Armenia, and their troops [which read as follows]:

"There is a crooked and disobedient people which dwells between us and causes trouble. Come now, I shall assemble mine and send them to Thrace. Assemble yours and have them taken East. Should they die, [our] enemies will be the ones dying; should they kill others it will be our enemies who perish, and we shall live in peace. But should they remain in their own country, we shall have no rest" [g47].

Then the two [rulers] united. The emperor started ordering [the Armenians] to assemble to go to Thrace, and he was implementing the order with extreme violence. [The Armenian princes and their troops] began to flee from the [Byzantine] sector and to go in service to the Iranian king—especially those whose country lay under [the emperor's] jurisdiction. Now [Xosrov] received all [the fugitives] with more exaltation and much greater gifts than the emperor had ever bestowed on them. This occurred even more when he saw them fleeing from the emperor, he wanted to win them to his side with even greater affection.

http://rbedrosian.com/sebtoc.html


The death march to Thrace resulted in thousands of deaths.  It's a part of our history, and I remember hearing about this even as a kid.  Yet, just a few decades after this happened, when the next Byzantine emperor needed the Armenians to help him fight against the Persians, the Armenians did so, leading the Byzantine army in rescuing the Cross.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Alpo on November 24, 2012, 05:25:33 PM
It might be a bit too late for such a disclaimer, Alpo.

I truly hope not. This forum is a really sad place if EOs cannot comment on any OO-related thing or OOs cannot comment on any EO-related thing without it leading into an armageddons, earthquakes, famines and dozens of cans of worms.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: walter1234 on November 24, 2012, 05:25:46 PM
Although what we discuss does not match with the heading / topic, but I hope we can continue this discussion!  :laugh:

I am interested about the persecution of oppenents in Church History of OO,EO, RCC and Protestant.

Can the moderator change the topic of this thread?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: dzheremi on November 24, 2012, 05:33:47 PM
It might be a bit too late for such a disclaimer, Alpo.

I truly hope not. This forum is a really sad place if EOs cannot comment on any OO-related thing or OOs cannot comment on any EO-related thing without it leading into an armageddons, earthquakes, famines and dozens of cans of worms.

 ???

Forgive me, Alpo, I didn't mean to imply anything like that. Only that the argument has already started, whether any of us wanted it to or not.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Severian on November 24, 2012, 05:40:56 PM
Where's the "mass deportations" and torture?

Google St. Samuel the Confessor for the torture part. He's one among many.

Cyrillic, that is absolute unquestionable fact.
Fixed that for you! :P

Couldn't resist trolling. :D
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Alpo on November 24, 2012, 05:56:37 PM
???

Forgive me, Alpo, I didn't mean to imply anything like that. Only that the argument has already started, whether any of us wanted it to or not.

Sorry for misunderstanding. I didn't thought that you implied it either. No offence taken. :)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: William on November 24, 2012, 06:10:55 PM

You can't quote from the Private Forums.

BTW that thread and the lack of convincing evidence presented is the reason I hold my current position.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Severian on November 24, 2012, 06:12:46 PM
BTW that thread and the lack of convincing evidence presented is the reason I hold my current position.
Which is...?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 24, 2012, 06:18:10 PM

You can't quote from the Private Forums.

BTW that thread and the lack of convincing evidence presented is the reason I hold my current position.

Oh woops, didn't notice it was from the private forum. It's too late to edit now, sorry.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: William on November 24, 2012, 06:21:09 PM
BTW that thread and the lack of convincing evidence presented is the reason I hold my current position.
Which is...?

I think we should switch forums...
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: macclesfieldfan1990 on November 24, 2012, 06:29:01 PM
You mean EO persecused OO Christian in the past?  :o

Yes. Exile, torture, murder, mass deportations etc.

So?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 24, 2012, 06:31:41 PM
BTW that thread and the lack of convincing evidence presented is the reason I hold my current position.
Which is...?

I think we should switch forums...

Start another thread.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Severian on November 24, 2012, 06:35:52 PM
BTW that thread and the lack of convincing evidence presented is the reason I hold my current position.
Which is...?

I think we should switch forums...

Start another thread.
Or PM me.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Shanghaiski on November 24, 2012, 06:38:11 PM
So, bad stuff happened. Don't freak out.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Azul on November 24, 2012, 07:20:20 PM
because it is more scholastic , more well organised and more codified/official.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Wyatt on November 24, 2012, 08:37:50 PM
I'm pretty sure every single historical religious groups has persecuted people of other faiths at some point of history. If there is some group who didn't it's because they never had the chance due to politics of their time.

True! We're all humans.  It is not the fault of the faith, but rather the people who misinterpret and misrepresent the faith.
Except when it's people who happen to be RCs who do it, then suddenly it's because of our evil, corrupt religion.  ::)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Iconodule on November 24, 2012, 09:03:07 PM
One word answer: Dante.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: choy on November 25, 2012, 12:06:18 AM
because it is more scholastic , more well organised and more codified/official.

True.  And if you are Protestant, you are already of the same frame of mind.  Easier to grasp.  When I become Eastern Catholic I tried to get into the Orthodox mindset.  2 years have passed and I feel I'm just starting to think more "Eastern" than Western.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Shiny on November 25, 2012, 12:11:27 AM
One word answer: Dante.
And I'll add Aquinas too, for some folks like me. For Protestant Christians when they encounter Aquinas' theology they get blown away by his apparent intellectual prowess, that they thought Christianity was never capable of that kind of depth before.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: walter1234 on November 25, 2012, 02:25:03 AM
BTW that thread and the lack of convincing evidence presented is the reason I hold my current position.
Which is...?

I think we should switch forums...

Start another thread.

Where is the new thread?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Kerdy on November 25, 2012, 02:33:40 AM
The Catholic Church is very appealing and beautiful.  If it were not for a small handful of things I could not reconcile within the Catholic Church, today I would be Catholic.  Instead, by the grace of God, I found some Orthodox brothers who showed me the problems I could not come to grips with in the Catholic Church did not exist in the Orthodox Church, so here I am.

At least, this is the shortened version.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: neon_knights on November 25, 2012, 02:37:42 AM
I'm pretty sure every single historical religious groups has persecuted people of other faiths at some point of history. If there is some group who didn't it's because they never had the chance due to politics of their time.



Why don't God protect His True Church not to be tempered by sin and evil? Why don't God stop His true Church to do so immediately?

The gate of Hade would not overcome God's true Church, even just a momnet.



1.) God allows exercise of free will, even among those in His church

2.) That isnt even remotely what that verse means
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: walter1234 on November 25, 2012, 02:56:33 AM
I'm pretty sure every single historical religious groups has persecuted people of other faiths at some point of history. If there is some group who didn't it's because they never had the chance due to politics of their time.



Why don't God protect His True Church not to be tempered by sin and evil? Why don't God stop His true Church to do so immediately?

The gate of Hade would not overcome God's true Church, even just a momnet.



1.) God allows exercise of free will, even among those in His church

2.) That isnt even remotely what that verse means

Is persecution of opponents just the decision of small groups/particular individuals in the ( Orthodox)Church? Does the whole Church support the persecution of the opponents?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: walter1234 on November 25, 2012, 03:25:00 AM
It seems that Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic are all fallen in certain point of their history. :-[ Catholic just more corrupt than Orthodox and Protestant in her history.

I can't recall the Oriental Orthodox persecuting anyone, but do you think this is a good way of measuring truth?

 Church as whole could perscute the oppenents together. To me, it seems that Church as a whole can still fall.  :'(

Those persecutions were carried out by individuals in the Church, it was never done by the Church itself
If persecution were carried out by individuals or small group in the Church, why didn't the others in the Church/the whole Church  stop this individuals or small groups to do so?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Alpo on November 25, 2012, 04:06:48 AM
If persecution were carried out by individuals or small group in the Church, why didn't the others in the Church/the whole Church  stop this individuals or small groups to do so?

Because not everyone was born in 21st centyry West.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: walter1234 on November 25, 2012, 04:10:13 AM
If persecution were carried out by individuals or small group in the Church, why didn't the others in the Church/the whole Church  stop this individuals or small groups to do so?

Because not every was born 21st centyry West.
Not everybody's voice are respected before 21st century?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 25, 2012, 05:47:41 AM
If persecution were carried out by individuals or small group in the Church, why didn't the others in the Church/the whole Church  stop this individuals or small groups to do so?

Because not every was born 21st centyry West.
Not everybody's voice are respected before 21st century?

No, there were different values.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: walter1234 on November 25, 2012, 06:11:38 AM
If persecution were carried out by individuals or small group in the Church, why didn't the others in the Church/the whole Church  stop this individuals or small groups to do so?

Because not every was born 21st centyry West.
Not everybody's voice are respected before 21st century?

No, there were different values.
Their values had not been influenced by Christ and His church? (Christ taught us to love and pray for our enemies, but not kill them)
The persecutors' value may have not been influenfed by Christ and His church. How about the others in (Orthodox) Church ?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: walter1234 on November 25, 2012, 09:00:30 AM

This. When I discovered that protestantism was nonsense the first thing I did was studying RC-ism.

Can you explain more about this in detail?

Two things started my journey:

1) Sola Scriptura, one of the doctrinal pillars of protestantism, says that every doctrine should come from Scripture (alone), but Scripture never says this, thus Sola Scriptura contradicts itself.

2) When I started reading the Church Fathers I found out that the 1st and 2nd century Church taught the Real Presence in the Eucharist and had bishops. Read St. Ignatius' epistles for example.

So after that I started studying the only Church I really knew who taught this: the RCC. But then I found out about the Orthodox Church and then I started comparing the two. In the end I found out (through reading history and the Church Fathers) that the Orthodox Church is the Church found on Pentecost in 33AD by Jesus Christ.

I'm pretty sure every single historical religious groups has persecuted people of other faiths at some point of history. If there is some group who didn't it's because they never had the chance due to politics of their time.

Why don't God protect His True Church not to be tempered by sin and evil? Why don't God stop His true Church to do so ?


There has always been sin and evil amongst the disciples of Christ. Remember Judas?

What is the difference between RCC and Orthodoxy? Why are  you so sure that EO is the only true church ,but not RCC?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 25, 2012, 09:08:13 AM
What is the difference between RCC and Orthodoxy? Why are  you so sure that EO is the only true church ,but not RCC?

There are a lot of things, but I have a hard time believing that:

1) The Holy Spirit proceeds hypostatically from the Son as well as from the Father (i.e. filioque).

2)  The bishop of Rome is infallible when he pronounces something ex cathedra

3) The bishop of Rome has universal jurisdiction and can appoint and depose any bishop at will and that this is based on divine right.

4) God can be 'proven' by reason.

On top of that I like :

1)  The essence-energies distinction as formulated by St. Gregory Palamas and the Fifth Council of Constantinople

2) The Divine Liturgy

3) Eastern Christianity and the Eastern Fathers in general.

Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: walter1234 on November 25, 2012, 09:21:13 AM
How can we know holy spiriy is proceeded from father alone,not father and son?

God can be  proved by some some reason?what does it mean?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: walter1234 on November 25, 2012, 09:25:21 AM
On top of that I like :

1)  The essence-energies distinction as formulated by St. Gregory Palamas and the Fifth Council of Constantinople

2) The Divine Liturgy

3) Eastern Christianity and the Eastern Fathers in general.


You mean you like all these things from Eastern Orthodox Church?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 25, 2012, 09:27:02 AM
On top of that I like :

1)  The essence-energies distinction as formulated by St. Gregory Palamas and the Fifth Council of Constantinople

2) The Divine Liturgy

3) Eastern Christianity and the Eastern Fathers in general.


You mean you like all these things from Eastern Orthodox Church?

Yes.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 25, 2012, 09:28:35 AM
How can we know holy spiriy is proceeded from father alone,not father and son?

Perhaps a little easy, but:

"The Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me (John 15:26)"

God can be  proved by some some reason?what does it mean?

That God cannot be proven with the human mind.

Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Nephi on November 25, 2012, 12:13:59 PM
I find the Incarnational approach to spirituality of traditional Roman Catholicism extremely attractive, but other than that its lacking Orthodoxy. ;)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Anastasia1 on November 25, 2012, 12:23:48 PM
I used to be more attracted to Catholicism, it's structure, traditions, structured life... but now I find it cold and lacking. I could never quite accept the Pope because of my Protestant upbringing, and the services seem more like a western shortcut that is too structured and artificial compared to Orthodoxy which seems more natural, especially in the OO church.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Shanghaiski on November 25, 2012, 04:01:43 PM
I'm pretty sure every single historical religious groups has persecuted people of other faiths at some point of history. If there is some group who didn't it's because they never had the chance due to politics of their time.



Why don't God protect His True Church not to be tempered by sin and evil? Why don't God stop His true Church to do so immediately?

The gate of Hade would not overcome God's true Church, even just a momnet.



1.) God allows exercise of free will, even among those in His church

2.) That isnt even remotely what that verse means

Is persecution of opponents just the decision of small groups/particular individuals in the ( Orthodox)Church? Does the whole Church support the persecution of the opponents?

One can't expect all Orthodox Christians to have that much vision.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 25, 2012, 04:10:52 PM
I used to be more attracted to Catholicism, it's structure, traditions, structured life... but now I find it cold and lacking. I could never quite accept the Pope because of my Protestant upbringing, and the services seem more like a western shortcut that is too structured and artificial compared to Orthodoxy which seems more natural, especially in the OO church.

In my eyes the Armenian liturgy looks quite similiar to the RC Tridentine one. Especially the thing with the evil hats.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: dzheremi on November 25, 2012, 04:21:48 PM
Evil hats?  ???
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: walter1234 on November 25, 2012, 04:27:07 PM
I'm pretty sure every single historical religious groups has persecuted people of other faiths at some point of history. If there is some group who didn't it's because they never had the chance due to politics of their time.



Why don't God protect His True Church not to be tempered by sin and evil? Why don't God stop His true Church to do so immediately?

The gate of Hade would not overcome God's true Church, even just a momnet.



1.) God allows exercise of free will, even among those in His church

2.) That isnt even remotely what that verse means

Is persecution of opponents just the decision of small groups/particular individuals in the ( Orthodox)Church? Does the whole Church support the persecution of the opponents?

One can't expect all Orthodox Christians to have that much vision.
If all Orthodox Christians  had the vision to kill the oppponents, that means the whole church was murder.

If all Orthodox Christians  supported the persecution of oppenents, that means church as whole became evil and was  subjected by sin.Church as a whole indeeded falled and corrupted.

I still struggle this with the teaching of infalliable church(e.g Church as a whole would never be overcome by sin and death., even just a moment.)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Shanghaiski on November 25, 2012, 04:38:40 PM
I'm pretty sure every single historical religious groups has persecuted people of other faiths at some point of history. If there is some group who didn't it's because they never had the chance due to politics of their time.



Why don't God protect His True Church not to be tempered by sin and evil? Why don't God stop His true Church to do so immediately?

The gate of Hade would not overcome God's true Church, even just a momnet.



1.) God allows exercise of free will, even among those in His church

2.) That isnt even remotely what that verse means

Is persecution of opponents just the decision of small groups/particular individuals in the ( Orthodox)Church? Does the whole Church support the persecution of the opponents?

One can't expect all Orthodox Christians to have that much vision.
If all Orthodox Christians  had the vision to kill the oppponents, that means the whole church was murder.

If all Orthodox Christians  supported the persecution of oppenents, that means church as whole became evil and was  subjected by sin.Church as a whole indeeded falled and corrupted.

I still struggle this with the teaching of infalliable church(e.g Church as a whole would never be overcome by sin and death., even just a moment.)

Apparently, sarcasm does not translate.

"Persecution" is something which can be defined in several different ways and when we look back at history from our vantage point, we're likely going to see things not as they were, but according to our bias.

No, the Church was not the entity persecuting anyone. There were laws that favored Christianity and set limits on non-Christian religions and discouraged heresies. Beyond that, there were exceptional moments when certain people went beyond or outside of the law.

I'm not sure what exactly you're looking for beyond this. People should not view history as if the historical record is somehow complete. It's only a little picture, and often distorted. What is in the historical record is what has managed first to be recorded at the time and second to have survived to the present day. So, it's not worth getting bent out of shape about.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 25, 2012, 04:41:39 PM
Evil hats?  ???

 Yes, evil Armenian hats  (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28632.0.html)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: walter1234 on November 25, 2012, 04:43:15 PM
Is there any recognized Saint who persecuted the oppenents in his/her life?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 25, 2012, 04:44:24 PM
Is there any recognized Saints persecuting the opponents?

St. Constantine persecuted arians, sort of, until they convinced him to stop doing it.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: walter1234 on November 25, 2012, 04:46:09 PM
Why a murder can still become the recognized Siants? THey broke the Ten Commendant!No love and mercy on his enemies!! Not follow Jesus' teaching and pray for our enemies!
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 25, 2012, 04:48:24 PM
Why a murder can still become the recognized Siants? THey broke the Ten Commendant...

Because everyone sins.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Shanghaiski on November 25, 2012, 04:50:40 PM
Is there any recognized Saint who persecuted the oppenents in his/her life?

Again, you have to look at context. Freedom of religion is a very modern concept. Heresy and its spread did cause serious problems for the state.

After St. Constantine, his son, Constantius, who was an Arian, persecuted the Orthodox. That was how things worked. Are you going to judge everyone based on your own personal standards?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: walter1234 on November 25, 2012, 04:53:04 PM
Is there any recognized Saint who persecuted the oppenents in his/her life?

Again, you have to look at context. Freedom of religion is a very modern concept. Heresy and its spread did cause serious problems for the state.

After St. Constantine, his son, Constantius, who was an Arian, persecuted the Orthodox. That was how things worked. Are you going to judge everyone based on your own personal standards?

I assume the Saints are all holiness, full of love ,mercy and forgiveness!! :'(
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 25, 2012, 04:54:12 PM
Is there any recognized Saint who persecuted the oppenents in his/her life?

Again, you have to look at context. Freedom of religion is a very modern concept. Heresy and its spread did cause serious problems for the state.

After St. Constantine, his son, Constantius, who was an Arian, persecuted the Orthodox. That was how things worked. Are you going to judge everyone based on your own personal standards?

I assume the Saints are all holiness, full of love and mercy!! :'(

They are. However on earth nobody of us is perfect, so neither was St. Constantine.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Shanghaiski on November 25, 2012, 05:03:58 PM
Is there any recognized Saint who persecuted the oppenents in his/her life?

Again, you have to look at context. Freedom of religion is a very modern concept. Heresy and its spread did cause serious problems for the state.

After St. Constantine, his son, Constantius, who was an Arian, persecuted the Orthodox. That was how things worked. Are you going to judge everyone based on your own personal standards?

I assume the Saints are all holiness, full of love and mercy!! :'(

Tbey are fallen human beings who Christ has saved, whom he has sanctified. They are saints because of their repentance and what they did for God and the Church.

Anyway, I think you are pressing the issue too much. You're still expecting historical figures to view things according to modern principles. They viewed things according to Christian principles and the principles of their own time.

Sometimes, out of love and mercy, one still ends up having to do something that isn't pleasant. For example, a doctor causes pain in an effort to heal. Should he have done nothing? A soldier kills in battle in an attempt to save innocent people from barbarians. Should he just open the gates and let them be slaughtered? An emperor closes heretical churches and exiles hereseiarchs to discourage the spread of heresy which undermines the Church. A ruler puts down a rebellion responsible for endangering public safety. In a fallen world, the right thing to do is not always warm and fuzzy, nor is morality always black and white. Oftentimes, one who has a responsibility to make decisions is not always able to see everything before he takes a decision. Things may go against his intention--which was to do good, not to inflict pain or act with malice.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Anastasia1 on November 25, 2012, 05:42:21 PM
I used to be more attracted to Catholicism, it's structure, traditions, structured life... but now I find it cold and lacking. I could never quite accept the Pope because of my Protestant upbringing, and the services seem more like a western shortcut that is too structured and artificial compared to Orthodoxy which seems more natural, especially in the OO church.

In my eyes the Armenian liturgy looks quite similiar to the RC Tridentine one. Especially the thing with the evil hats.
Granted I'm more familiar with the modern Roman rite services and ministers, but I speak of reading that I have done and conversations I have had. There is a gentleness and flexibility that I perceive in Orthodoxy that I don't perceive as much in Catholicism. This may be because I am more familiar with their rules and such, but sometimes it seems more like it's micromanaging everyone's theology and practice with more baggage than necessary. (Catholics and I have often had similar worldviews, but having been discouraged and feeling detached from Christianity, I don't jump at being told everything about modern life by a modern council and strict followers). I think that part of my change in perspective was also from a dissatisfaction with an evangelical western perspective of salvation and the distinction between western theology coming through Latin, a legal language, and eastern coming through Greek, a philosophical language.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Nephi on November 25, 2012, 07:14:04 PM
Is there any recognized Saints persecuting the opponents?

St. Constantine persecuted arians, sort of, until they convinced him to stop doing it.

I read somewhere that St. Constantine's Arian bishop had extreme influence on him, and that near the end of his life he was most likely Arian himself.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: minasoliman on November 25, 2012, 07:37:23 PM
Why a murder can still become the recognized Siants? THey broke the Ten Commendant!No love and mercy on his enemies!! Not follow Jesus' teaching and pray for our enemies!

Make no mistake.  St. Constantine was wrong in many of his actions.  But I will not cease to venerate him.  Why?  Because what makes me any better than him, especially for many of the achievements he made for ancient Christianity, of which I fall short of?  I say to myself, if I'm not a tenth of the man he is, then I have no hope for my own salvation.  We give accounts of saints in our liturgies for their positive accomplishments and their repentances of their shortcomings.

I'll take this even further.  I am obedient to the Church in her condemnation of heretics, but I hesitate to condemn the worst of heretics to hell from my own mouth, lest I be judged in a similar manner.  I simply ask God for His mercy, and for giving me the ability to stay within the faith and grow in spirituality, doing good unto others and being a light of the world for Him, that I may not blaspheme Him by my actions.  And continually to forgive that I may be forgiven.  Continually see the worst of sinners and non-believers around me as better than me in their chances of going to heaven.  It is by this spirit that I continue to venerate St. Constantine and humbly ask him for his prayers of my miserable and hopeless soul.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Shanghaiski on November 25, 2012, 07:40:23 PM
Why a murder can still become the recognized Siants? THey broke the Ten Commendant!No love and mercy on his enemies!! Not follow Jesus' teaching and pray for our enemies!

Make no mistake.  St. Constantine was wrong in many of his actions.  But I will not cease to venerate him.  Why?  Because what makes me any better than him, especially for many of the achievements he made for ancient Christianity, of which I fall short of?  I say to myself, if I'm not a tenth of the man he is, then I have no hope for my own salvation.  We give accounts of saints in our liturgies for their positive accomplishments and their repentances of their shortcomings.

I'll take this even further.  I am obedient to the Church in her condemnation of heretics, but I hesitate to condemn the worst of heretics to hell from my own mouth, lest I be judged in a similar manner.  I simply ask God for His mercy, and for giving me the ability to stay within the faith and grow in spirituality, doing good unto others and being a light of the world for Him, that I may not blaspheme Him by my actions.  And continually to forgive that I may be forgiven.  Continually see the worst of sinners and non-believers around me as better than me in their chances of going to heaven.  It is by this spirit that I continue to venerate St. Constantine and humbly ask him for his prayers of my miserable and hopeless soul.

Amen!
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: dzheremi on November 25, 2012, 07:46:16 PM
Why a murder can still become the recognized Siants? THey broke the Ten Commendant!No love and mercy on his enemies!! Not follow Jesus' teaching and pray for our enemies!

Make no mistake.  St. Constantine was wrong in many of his actions.  But I will not cease to venerate him.  Why?  Because what makes me any better than him, especially for many of the achievements he made for ancient Christianity, of which I fall short of?  I say to myself, if I'm not a tenth of the man he is, then I have no hope for my own salvation.  We give accounts of saints in our liturgies for their positive accomplishments and their repentances of their shortcomings.

I'll take this even further.  I am obedient to the Church in her condemnation of heretics, but I hesitate to condemn the worst of heretics to hell from my own mouth, lest I be judged in a similar manner.  I simply ask God for His mercy, and for giving me the ability to stay within the faith and grow in spirituality, doing good unto others and being a light of the world for Him, that I may not blaspheme Him by my actions.  And continually to forgive that I may be forgiven.  Continually see the worst of sinners and non-believers around me as better than me in their chances of going to heaven.  It is by this spirit that I continue to venerate St. Constantine and humbly ask him for his prayers of my miserable and hopeless soul.

This is one of those posts that makes me double check what forum it's in so that hopefully it will be eligible for post of the month distinction. :)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: izrima on November 26, 2012, 05:27:28 PM
For a lot of people who are born Catholic, the RCC is part of their cultural heritage. If you're from a big Catholic family, probably everyone in that family is Catholic, practicing or not. There is not much church-hopping or denominantional discussion. In my family, we've had many in-laws convert to the RCC but I can't think of any of us who have converted away from the RCC. I will be the first  ;)

For people who convert to the RCC, I think a big part of it is just awareness. What is not a Protestant? A Catholic. If I don't like Protestantism, does that mean I am a Catholic? I imagine that is how it goes for many folks in the West. You don't often stumble upon Orthodoxy by mistake. The post-Vatican II RCC is also much less ethnic in any sort of exclusive way. Chances are that if you are curious about the RCC, there will be a parish near by that is offering services in the local vernacular. That sure is convenient.

For me personally, I first began to study Orthodoxy a few years ago and quickly began to see more truth in it than the RCC. The problem for me was worship. My first two trips to Orthodox churches were to parishes where I didn't speak the language and didn't look like the parishioners. I didn't get it. I wondered why the congregation wasn't singing. So after each of those false starts, I would go back to the RCC mainly because I loved the liturgy. I told myself that I probably wouldn't be able to convert until I could find a Western Rite parish. Luckily I eventually found an English-language OCA parish and was able to fast forward a bit  :)

The RCC is beautiful. There is nothing quite like going into an older parish and seeing the stained glass windows and the beautiful statues. A lot of the music is fantastic--I still sing the Latin Sanctus in the shower. And a lot of the people, laymen and priests, are really good, decent folks. It is tough to leave that sort of experience behind for the unknown and the unfamiliar.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: choy on November 26, 2012, 05:41:51 PM
And a lot of the people, laymen and priests, are really good, decent folks. It is tough to leave that sort of experience behind for the unknown and the unfamiliar.

We're on the same boat.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: izrima on November 26, 2012, 06:05:54 PM
And a lot of the people, laymen and priests, are really good, decent folks. It is tough to leave that sort of experience behind for the unknown and the unfamiliar.

We're on the same boat.

It is a good problem to have :) I leave the RCC with no ill will. In fact, I've already had one experience where I defended the RCC to an Orthodox figure of authority who was alleging that Catholics would put leftover precious blood from communion into the refrigerator. I suppose that could be true, but in none of the many, many RC parishes I've visited have I ever seen something like that. It is a church with deficiencies, but I don't think insufficient or nonexistent respect and reverence for the Eucharist is often one of them.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: dzheremi on November 26, 2012, 06:30:10 PM
I remember once, quite a while ago, having to defend the RCC against people from my church (though I wasn't baptized yet at that time) who apparently had been under the influence of Protestants and came away thinking that Roman Catholics "worship Mary". While I was at some points quite uncomfortable with the hyper-hyper-hyper dulia that I occasionally saw given to her in my home RCC parish (heavily Latino; Latinos have a special devotion to St. Mary that can seem a little bit overboard to an outsider...or me), it never crossed the line to something that I would be calling the bishop about. So I just reminded my friends that we have prayers and hymns like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YU_tyCPP0yg), which people who don't know any better would probably also take as "Mary-worshiping". We call those people "wrong" (because they are), so we should be a little more careful about what we claim about other churches that we're not a part of, because it's pretty easy to get a skewed view of them on that account.

(They never brought up that idea again.)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: choy on November 26, 2012, 06:30:41 PM
And a lot of the people, laymen and priests, are really good, decent folks. It is tough to leave that sort of experience behind for the unknown and the unfamiliar.

We're on the same boat.

It is a good problem to have :) I leave the RCC with no ill will. In fact, I've already had one experience where I defended the RCC to an Orthodox figure of authority who was alleging that Catholics would put leftover precious blood from communion into the refrigerator. I suppose that could be true, but in none of the many, many RC parishes I've visited have I ever seen something like that. It is a church with deficiencies, but I don't think insufficient or nonexistent respect and reverence for the Eucharist is often one of them.

True enough.  I mean, Eucharistic Adoration, that says it all.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 26, 2012, 07:07:15 PM
Walter,

You are a breath of fresh air. Don't let your zeal burn you.

Why is the RCC beautiful? I could give some anecdotes, but who cares?

Bottom line, people find much good embodied there. They are not handwringing over this or that doctrine. The have the love of family, friends, history, etc.

And God probably fits in there as well.

It probably why most people incorporate into any body.

I can say this, when my life was probably at its worst (I really can't imagine it ever being worse and this coming from someone who tries to avoid the use of the superlative) a lot of RCs I didn't know were willing to do a lot to help me (visit a stranger in the hospital, offer a stranger their home and food). Not once did I get a God lecture. Just ridiculous generosity.

It was baffling and embarrassing.

If not for the sex scandal, I couldn't honestly bring myself to utter a single negative word about the RCC (except their penchant for the Scholastic after so long, sorry Papist).

I cannot say negative thing about RCs in general for sure. I have just seen too much true good done by them in their own backyards.

One or twice since, I had thought about going off the rails. The unconscionable generosity of a single nun kept me from doing so. I couldn't imagine repaying her kindness in such a way. And I am about as ungrateful a lot as you will find.

Nothing to do with God. Just the excess care of woman I doubt I will ever meet again.

I can see what people find beauty in the RCC. In my short brushes with it, it was hard to avoid.

Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: truthseeker32 on November 26, 2012, 08:18:58 PM
It is threads like these, full of shallow criticisms of Catholic praxis, that make me glad I returned to the Roman Catholic Church.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Papist on November 26, 2012, 08:35:12 PM
If not for the sex scandal, I couldn't honestly bring myself to utter a single negative word about the RCC (except their penchant for the Scholastic after so long, sorry Papist).
No problem.  :D Scholasticism is not the only philosophical language by which one can express the truths of the faith. I love the Aristotelian/Thomistic approach to philosophy, but when it comes to theology, I have a greater appreciation for the Byzantine expression. In fact, there areas of theology in which I prefer the Byzantine expression (i.e. the sacraments, theosis, purgatory/purification, pre-destination, etc.). Like I said, I've always had my feet in both worlds.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: choy on November 26, 2012, 09:02:18 PM
It is threads like these, full of shallow criticisms of Catholic praxis, that make me glad I returned to the Roman Catholic Church.

There is shallow criticism all around.  It is something that every religious group has plenty of.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 26, 2012, 10:11:22 PM
It is threads like these, full of shallow criticisms of Catholic praxis, that make me glad I returned to the Roman Catholic Church.

There is shallow criticism all around.  It is something that every religious group has plenty of.

And people wonder why the non-religious think you are all the same.

This should be a drinking game around here. Whenever you find someone excuse a member of the Church or a period of the Church with the "we are all humans" line, drink.

Twice if they mention something about hospitals.

Good luck making it through a hot night around here.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: choy on November 26, 2012, 11:27:34 PM
It is threads like these, full of shallow criticisms of Catholic praxis, that make me glad I returned to the Roman Catholic Church.

There is shallow criticism all around.  It is something that every religious group has plenty of.

And people wonder why the non-religious think you are all the same.

This should be a drinking game around here. Whenever you find someone excuse a member of the Church or a period of the Church with the "we are all humans" line, drink.

Twice if they mention something about hospitals.

Good luck making it through a hot night around here.

I might die of alcohol poisoning on the first thread I read  ;D
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cavaradossi on November 27, 2012, 01:05:37 AM
It is threads like these, full of shallow criticisms of Catholic praxis, that make me glad I returned to the Roman Catholic Church.

There is shallow criticism all around.  It is something that every religious group has plenty of.

And people wonder why the non-religious think you are all the same.

This should be a drinking game around here. Whenever you find someone excuse a member of the Church or a period of the Church with the "we are all humans" line, drink.

Twice if they mention something about hospitals.

Good luck making it through a hot night around here.

Well, since alcohol is a vasodilator... oh nevermind.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Asteriktos on November 27, 2012, 02:43:32 AM
Reasons I find the RCC attractive:
- There's more of them in the country I live in, making it easier to actively participate in church life.
- They are less ascetic.
- They are more cerebral.
- They are more organized.
- They are more open-minded.
- They have the Pope.

Reasons I find the RCC unattractive:
- They are less mystical.
- They are less cool.
- They are more authoritarian.
- Their worship is bland.
- Their positions on contraception and divorce.
- They have the Pope.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: username! on November 27, 2012, 02:54:22 AM
Reasons the RCC is attractive;
-Where I live its the biggest church with the most parishes in the area
-Parishes are ran much differently than most Orthodox parishes
-Priest is clearly in charge and parish council fights but only over music and flowers unlike Orthodox parish councils that can be congregationalist beasts that consider the clergy hired help and have a controlling president that is a monster

Reasons the RCC is not attractive;
No lex credendi lex orendi
Things have changed; altar girls, lay people doing just about everything except the communion rite

One other thing that is nice about the RCC is you can go to mass and leave at the end and on the way to your car if people say hi it generally is just "hi."  I'm not a fan of the protestant fellowship coffee hour that many Orthodox parishes have. 
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: username! on November 27, 2012, 02:57:35 AM
And a lot of the people, laymen and priests, are really good, decent folks. It is tough to leave that sort of experience behind for the unknown and the unfamiliar.

We're on the same boat.

It is a good problem to have :) I leave the RCC with no ill will. In fact, I've already had one experience where I defended the RCC to an Orthodox figure of authority who was alleging that Catholics would put leftover precious blood from communion into the refrigerator. I suppose that could be true, but in none of the many, many RC parishes I've visited have I ever seen something like that. It is a church with deficiencies, but I don't think insufficient or nonexistent respect and reverence for the Eucharist is often one of them.

Sometimes I don't think protestant converts realize the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic church are so close to being the same when they join.  Orthodox love Mary..... Roman Catholics love Mary.... We have saints, they have saints.  We all pray for the dead.   So it behooves me that Protestant converts bring that hatred of Roman Catholicism into their conversion into Orthodoxy... it's ridiculous.  I mean pretty much the RCC and the Orthodox share half of their history together... and the first 7 ecumenical councils together...  I don't even argue with people anymore it does no good.  The church hall isn't even the place to argue with people I think.  Maybe I'm getting old.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: walter1234 on November 27, 2012, 09:08:46 AM
To certain extent,EO and RCC are quite similar.Why would Orthodox Church think that RCC is not the "True Church" of God? What are the MAIN difference between RCC and EO?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Kerdy on November 27, 2012, 09:16:55 AM
And a lot of the people, laymen and priests, are really good, decent folks. It is tough to leave that sort of experience behind for the unknown and the unfamiliar.

We're on the same boat.

It is a good problem to have :) I leave the RCC with no ill will. In fact, I've already had one experience where I defended the RCC to an Orthodox figure of authority who was alleging that Catholics would put leftover precious blood from communion into the refrigerator. I suppose that could be true, but in none of the many, many RC parishes I've visited have I ever seen something like that. It is a church with deficiencies, but I don't think insufficient or nonexistent respect and reverence for the Eucharist is often one of them.

Sometimes I don't think protestant converts realize the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic church are so close to being the same when they join.  Orthodox love Mary..... Roman Catholics love Mary.... We have saints, they have saints.  We all pray for the dead.   So it behooves me that Protestant converts bring that hatred of Roman Catholicism into their conversion into Orthodoxy... it's ridiculous.  I mean pretty much the RCC and the Orthodox share half of their history together... and the first 7 ecumenical councils together...  I don't even argue with people anymore it does no good.  The church hall isn't even the place to argue with people I think.  Maybe I'm getting old.

Most of the converts I know don't hate the Roman Catholic Church.  They actually study it first before coming to Orthodoxy.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Fabio Leite on November 27, 2012, 10:00:19 AM
That's the case because being the true church is not about following a set of rules, rituals and/or behaviour. It's about being a member of the same community of the Apostles and Jesus.


To certain extent,EO and RCC are quite similar.Why would Orthodox Church think that RCC is not the "True Church" of God? What are the MAIN difference between RCC and EO?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Jetavan on November 27, 2012, 10:04:06 AM
The prime reason that the RCC is so attractive is because of Notre Dame football -- #1 in the nation, baby!
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: walter1234 on November 27, 2012, 10:22:00 AM
That's the case because being the true church is not about following a set of rules, rituals and/or behaviour. It's about being a member of the same community of the Apostles and Jesus.


To certain extent,EO and RCC are quite similar.Why would Orthodox Church think that RCC is not the "True Church" of God? What are the MAIN difference between RCC and EO?
Are there any  rules, rituals and behaviours in Orthodox Church?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Fabio Leite on November 27, 2012, 10:23:44 AM
Yes, there are. But the community itself, or better saying, the ties of love in it, is more important than those. for some people, the rules are the most important things, for others they are not important at all (I think both are wrong), but it is about love and being part of the same community of Jesus and the Apostles. Unfortunately, non-Chalcedonians, Romans and Protestants, despite keeping some right practices and beliefs, no longer are part of that community.

That's the case because being the true church is not about following a set of rules, rituals and/or behaviour. It's about being a member of the same community of the Apostles and Jesus.


To certain extent,EO and RCC are quite similar.Why would Orthodox Church think that RCC is not the "True Church" of God? What are the MAIN difference between RCC and EO?
Are there any  rules, rituals and behaviours in Orthodox Church?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cavaradossi on November 27, 2012, 10:39:14 AM
One other thing that is nice about the RCC is you can go to mass and leave at the end and on the way to your car if people say hi it generally is just "hi."  I'm not a fan of the protestant fellowship coffee hour that many Orthodox parishes have.

God forbid that in a place where we are a minority, that we ought to try to socialize with our fellow Orthodox Christians, or have any sense of community, especially since those Protestants  were the first to start doing it.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Schultz on November 27, 2012, 10:43:08 AM
One other thing that is nice about the RCC is you can go to mass and leave at the end and on the way to your car if people say hi it generally is just "hi."  I'm not a fan of the protestant fellowship coffee hour that many Orthodox parishes have.

God forbid that in a place where we are a minority, that we ought to try to socialize with our fellow Orthodox Christians, or have any sense of community, especially since those Protestants  were the first to start doing it.

I think he's referring to the "WHY DONT YOU COME AND JOIN US AT COFFEE HOUR?!" mentality that's often present.  It can be incredibly stressful for introvert types and very off putting.  Forcing people to socialize is not fostering community.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cavaradossi on November 27, 2012, 10:48:38 AM
One other thing that is nice about the RCC is you can go to mass and leave at the end and on the way to your car if people say hi it generally is just "hi."  I'm not a fan of the protestant fellowship coffee hour that many Orthodox parishes have.

God forbid that in a place where we are a minority, that we ought to try to socialize with our fellow Orthodox Christians, or have any sense of community, especially since those Protestants  were the first to start doing it.

I think he's referring to the "WHY DONT YOU COME AND JOIN US AT COFFEE HOUR?!" mentality that's often present.  It can be incredibly stressful for introvert types and very off putting.  Forcing people to socialize is not fostering community.

People who don't want to can leave after the liturgy. When did we forget how to say no in this passive-aggressive society?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Schultz on November 27, 2012, 10:57:00 AM
One other thing that is nice about the RCC is you can go to mass and leave at the end and on the way to your car if people say hi it generally is just "hi."  I'm not a fan of the protestant fellowship coffee hour that many Orthodox parishes have.

God forbid that in a place where we are a minority, that we ought to try to socialize with our fellow Orthodox Christians, or have any sense of community, especially since those Protestants  were the first to start doing it.

I think he's referring to the "WHY DONT YOU COME AND JOIN US AT COFFEE HOUR?!" mentality that's often present.  It can be incredibly stressful for introvert types and very off putting.  Forcing people to socialize is not fostering community.

People who don't want to can leave after the liturgy. When did we forget how to say no in this passive-aggressive society?

You've apparently never experienced the "helpful" parishoner who "gently" guides visitors by the arm into the hall after being repeatedly told, "No, I'm sorry I can't stay."

Or have been confronted by three or four of the "welcoming committee" en masse who understand that you have to leave but really just want to show you their beautiful hall and, "Oh, here's a cup of coffee and this is so and so...don't you know her father literally helped build this church...and this is her daughter she's going to marry a priest someday say are you interested in going to seminary..."

The problem isn't that people don't know how to ,"No."  It's that people don't know how to take, "No, thank you," for an answer.

If you're not an introvert (or have some other social anxiety), you have absolutely no idea what this heavy-handed approach at fostering community can do to you and how it can literally make you run away.

Contrast that to every RCC parish I've ever been a part of where coffee hour exists, it's known, and if you want to come, great.  If not, see you next Sunday and have a lovely week.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: sheenj on November 27, 2012, 11:27:23 AM
I can understand not being a big fan of coffee hour, since I'm an awkward Indian neckbeard myself, but to call it Protestant? Really? It's kinda devolving to calling things we don't like "Protestant" or "Western".
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cavaradossi on November 27, 2012, 11:52:26 AM
One other thing that is nice about the RCC is you can go to mass and leave at the end and on the way to your car if people say hi it generally is just "hi."  I'm not a fan of the protestant fellowship coffee hour that many Orthodox parishes have.

God forbid that in a place where we are a minority, that we ought to try to socialize with our fellow Orthodox Christians, or have any sense of community, especially since those Protestants  were the first to start doing it.

I think he's referring to the "WHY DONT YOU COME AND JOIN US AT COFFEE HOUR?!" mentality that's often present.  It can be incredibly stressful for introvert types and very off putting.  Forcing people to socialize is not fostering community.

People who don't want to can leave after the liturgy. When did we forget how to say no in this passive-aggressive society?

You've apparently never experienced the "helpful" parishoner who "gently" guides visitors by the arm into the hall after being repeatedly told, "No, I'm sorry I can't stay."

Or have been confronted by three or four of the "welcoming committee" en masse who understand that you have to leave but really just want to show you their beautiful hall and, "Oh, here's a cup of coffee and this is so and so...don't you know her father literally helped build this church...and this is her daughter she's going to marry a priest someday say are you interested in going to seminary..."

The problem isn't that people don't know how to ,"No."  It's that people don't know how to take, "No, thank you," for an answer.

If you're not an introvert (or have some other social anxiety), you have absolutely no idea what this heavy-handed approach at fostering community can do to you and how it can literally make you run away.

Contrast that to every RCC parish I've ever been a part of where coffee hour exists, it's known, and if you want to come, great.  If not, see you next Sunday and have a lovely week.

I suppose, you might be right. Perhaps I will never experience or understand the anxiety that comes with being a pushover. I have plenty of social anxieties, but that isn't one of them.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Schultz on November 27, 2012, 12:01:30 PM
One other thing that is nice about the RCC is you can go to mass and leave at the end and on the way to your car if people say hi it generally is just "hi."  I'm not a fan of the protestant fellowship coffee hour that many Orthodox parishes have.

God forbid that in a place where we are a minority, that we ought to try to socialize with our fellow Orthodox Christians, or have any sense of community, especially since those Protestants  were the first to start doing it.

I think he's referring to the "WHY DONT YOU COME AND JOIN US AT COFFEE HOUR?!" mentality that's often present.  It can be incredibly stressful for introvert types and very off putting.  Forcing people to socialize is not fostering community.

People who don't want to can leave after the liturgy. When did we forget how to say no in this passive-aggressive society?

You've apparently never experienced the "helpful" parishoner who "gently" guides visitors by the arm into the hall after being repeatedly told, "No, I'm sorry I can't stay."

Or have been confronted by three or four of the "welcoming committee" en masse who understand that you have to leave but really just want to show you their beautiful hall and, "Oh, here's a cup of coffee and this is so and so...don't you know her father literally helped build this church...and this is her daughter she's going to marry a priest someday say are you interested in going to seminary..."

The problem isn't that people don't know how to ,"No."  It's that people don't know how to take, "No, thank you," for an answer.

If you're not an introvert (or have some other social anxiety), you have absolutely no idea what this heavy-handed approach at fostering community can do to you and how it can literally make you run away.

Contrast that to every RCC parish I've ever been a part of where coffee hour exists, it's known, and if you want to come, great.  If not, see you next Sunday and have a lovely week.

I suppose, you might be right. Perhaps I will never experience or understand the anxiety that comes with being a pushover. I have plenty of social anxieties, but that isn't one of them.

Nice.  Jesus loves you, too.



Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 27, 2012, 12:08:54 PM
Reasons I find the RCC attractive:
- There's more of them in the country I live in, making it easier to actively participate in church life.
- They are less ascetic.
- They are more cerebral.
- They are more organized.
- They are more open-minded.
- They have the Pope.


Isn't that a bad thing?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: dzheremi on November 27, 2012, 12:09:45 PM
The post-liturgy agape meal is one of those things that has helped me with my own introverted nature, but I'd be lying if I didn't acknowledge having to set a time limit on it sometimes. I don't know if that's being a pushover (it seems more assertive than that), but sometimes I've just had enough people for the day...particularly when they're yelling at each other loudly in Arabic, or they want me to stay and watch one of those two-disc movies on one of the lives of the saints.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cavaradossi on November 27, 2012, 12:12:48 PM
Nice.  Jesus loves you, too.

There is no need to draw such a hasty conclusion. But then perhaps I only doubt it because of my faithlessness.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Schultz on November 27, 2012, 12:13:51 PM
The post-liturgy agape meal is one of those things that has helped me with my own introverted nature, but I'd be lying if I didn't acknowledge having to set a time limit on it sometimes. I don't know if that's being a pushover (it seems more assertive than that), but sometimes I've just had enough people for the day...particularly when they're yelling at each other loudly in Arabic, or they want me to stay and watch one of those two-disc movies on one of the lives of the saints.

I'd like to point out I'm not against the meal/coffee hour itself, per se, but how it is presented and executed in almost every Orthodox parish I've been to vis-a-vis every RCC parish I've been involved in and visited over my 37 years on this planet.  I, too, have enjoyed the coffee hour at my parish and made some great friends there.  However, I was also not badgered about not staying like I was at the previous Orthodox parish I attended before finding my niche, so to speak, at my present one.  It was left as an open-ended offer which is how it should be, not as the interrogation it often, in my experience, is.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Asteriktos on November 27, 2012, 12:15:29 PM
I suppose, you might be right. Perhaps I will never experience or understand the anxiety that comes with being a pushover. I have plenty of social anxieties, but that isn't one of them.

Speaking of being passive aggressive...
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: walter1234 on November 27, 2012, 12:21:06 PM
Yes, there are. But the community itself, or better saying, the ties of love in it, is more important than those. for some people, the rules are the most important things, for others they are not important at all (I think both are wrong), but it is about love and being part of the same community of Jesus and the Apostles. Unfortunately, non-Chalcedonians, Romans and Protestants, despite keeping some right practices and beliefs, no longer are part of that community.

That's the case because being the true church is not about following a set of rules, rituals and/or behaviour. It's about being a member of the same community of the Apostles and Jesus.


To certain extent,EO and RCC are quite similar.Why would Orthodox Church think that RCC is not the "True Church" of God? What are the MAIN difference between RCC and EO?
Are there any  rules, rituals and behaviours in Orthodox Church?

THe biggest difference between EO and RCC is that EO focus on "Love" while RCC focus too much on rules, rituals and behaviours  but forget about "Love".
Can I say in this way?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cavaradossi on November 27, 2012, 12:22:51 PM
I suppose, you might be right. Perhaps I will never experience or understand the anxiety that comes with being a pushover. I have plenty of social anxieties, but that isn't one of them.

Speaking of being passive aggressive...

I never claimed that I am not a passive aggressive psychopath, only that I've learned how to say no to people who are too assertive. It's a useful skill, one that I recommend everybody learn.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Schultz on November 27, 2012, 12:33:08 PM
Yes, there are. But the community itself, or better saying, the ties of love in it, is more important than those. for some people, the rules are the most important things, for others they are not important at all (I think both are wrong), but it is about love and being part of the same community of Jesus and the Apostles. Unfortunately, non-Chalcedonians, Romans and Protestants, despite keeping some right practices and beliefs, no longer are part of that community.

That's the case because being the true church is not about following a set of rules, rituals and/or behaviour. It's about being a member of the same community of the Apostles and Jesus.


To certain extent,EO and RCC are quite similar.Why would Orthodox Church think that RCC is not the "True Church" of God? What are the MAIN difference between RCC and EO?
Are there any  rules, rituals and behaviours in Orthodox Church?

THe biggest difference between EO and RCC is that EO focus on "Love" while RCC focus too much on rules, rituals and behaviours  but forget about "Love".
Can I say in this way?

I'd say no.  You can't generalize this away.  There are differences, some very major, but most are subtle and cannot simply be explained with sweeping generalizations like this.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: izrima on November 27, 2012, 12:51:35 PM
Yes, there are. But the community itself, or better saying, the ties of love in it, is more important than those. for some people, the rules are the most important things, for others they are not important at all (I think both are wrong), but it is about love and being part of the same community of Jesus and the Apostles. Unfortunately, non-Chalcedonians, Romans and Protestants, despite keeping some right practices and beliefs, no longer are part of that community.

That's the case because being the true church is not about following a set of rules, rituals and/or behaviour. It's about being a member of the same community of the Apostles and Jesus.


To certain extent,EO and RCC are quite similar.Why would Orthodox Church think that RCC is not the "True Church" of God? What are the MAIN difference between RCC and EO?
Are there any  rules, rituals and behaviours in Orthodox Church?

THe biggest difference between EO and RCC is that EO focus on "Love" while RCC focus too much on rules, rituals and behaviours  but forget about "Love".
Can I say in this way?

That would be a gross oversimplification. To say the RCC forgets about love is just not true. Please, go to a RC soup kitchen in your town. Tell me there is no love there. Or ask a Catholic who has a spiritual director if they love and feel loved by that person. Or ask someone who went to a Catholic school if parents cared enough to pay extra to send their kids there and that teachers commonly took less money to teach there.

Again, the RCC has problems or else I would not be converting to Orthodoxy. But to tar the RCC with these broad strokes is unfair. You don't need to speak ill of Catholics to be a good Orthodox person. It's much better to just focus on being a good Orthodox person than to spend your time dissecting why Catholics are wrong.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: J Michael on November 27, 2012, 02:24:22 PM
Yes, there are. But the community itself, or better saying, the ties of love in it, is more important than those. for some people, the rules are the most important things, for others they are not important at all (I think both are wrong), but it is about love and being part of the same community of Jesus and the Apostles. Unfortunately, non-Chalcedonians, Romans and Protestants, despite keeping some right practices and beliefs, no longer are part of that community.

That's the case because being the true church is not about following a set of rules, rituals and/or behaviour. It's about being a member of the same community of the Apostles and Jesus.


To certain extent,EO and RCC are quite similar.Why would Orthodox Church think that RCC is not the "True Church" of God? What are the MAIN difference between RCC and EO?
Are there any  rules, rituals and behaviours in Orthodox Church?

THe biggest difference between EO and RCC is that EO focus on "Love" while RCC focus too much on rules, rituals and behaviours  but forget about "Love".
Can I say in this way?

That would be a gross oversimplification. To say the RCC forgets about love is just not true. Please, go to a RC soup kitchen in your town. Tell me there is no love there. Or ask a Catholic who has a spiritual director if they love and feel loved by that person. Or ask someone who went to a Catholic school if parents cared enough to pay extra to send their kids there and that teachers commonly took less money to teach there.

Again, the RCC has problems or else I would not be converting to Orthodoxy. But to tar the RCC with these broad strokes is unfair. You don't need to speak ill of Catholics to be a good Orthodox person. It's much better to just focus on being a good Orthodox person than to spend your time dissecting why Catholics are wrong.

Yes!
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-KiVJHxkqCJk/UHSkdiidpJI/AAAAAAAACFU/DqPKceieMzE/s1600/2+thumbs+up.jpg)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 27, 2012, 03:18:21 PM
Yes, there are. But the community itself, or better saying, the ties of love in it, is more important than those. for some people, the rules are the most important things, for others they are not important at all (I think both are wrong), but it is about love and being part of the same community of Jesus and the Apostles. Unfortunately, non-Chalcedonians, Romans and Protestants, despite keeping some right practices and beliefs, no longer are part of that community.

That's the case because being the true church is not about following a set of rules, rituals and/or behaviour. It's about being a member of the same community of the Apostles and Jesus.


To certain extent,EO and RCC are quite similar.Why would Orthodox Church think that RCC is not the "True Church" of God? What are the MAIN difference between RCC and EO?
Are there any  rules, rituals and behaviours in Orthodox Church?

THe biggest difference between EO and RCC is that EO focus on "Love" while RCC focus too much on rules, rituals and behaviours  but forget about "Love".
Can I say in this way?

That would be a gross oversimplification. To say the RCC forgets about love is just not true. Please, go to a RC soup kitchen in your town. Tell me there is no love there. Or ask a Catholic who has a spiritual director if they love and feel loved by that person. Or ask someone who went to a Catholic school if parents cared enough to pay extra to send their kids there and that teachers commonly took less money to teach there.

Again, the RCC has problems or else I would not be converting to Orthodoxy. But to tar the RCC with these broad strokes is unfair. You don't need to speak ill of Catholics to be a good Orthodox person. It's much better to just focus on being a good Orthodox person than to spend your time dissecting why Catholics are wrong.

Yes!
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-KiVJHxkqCJk/UHSkdiidpJI/AAAAAAAACFU/DqPKceieMzE/s1600/2+thumbs+up.jpg)

Where's the love for my post? It was even better.

It even preempted this ridiculous notion about the absence of love.

You know J. Michael, if you reward behavior in others you find to be an improvement over their typical behavior, you increase the chances of it happening again.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: William on November 27, 2012, 03:44:43 PM
Reasons why it's attractive to me:
1. It's not weird to be a devout Catholic in the USA
2. More anonymity
3. More systematic
4. Occasionally it follows western liturgical traditions
5. Less asceticism
6. Many charities, hospitals, schools
7. Part of my heritage and family

Reasons why it's unattractive
1. Even the 'conservative' liturgical parishes I know of have stuff that would cause huge scandal in Orthodox churches
2. Papal infallibility, supremacy, other doctrinal stuff
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: J Michael on November 27, 2012, 04:00:34 PM
Yes, there are. But the community itself, or better saying, the ties of love in it, is more important than those. for some people, the rules are the most important things, for others they are not important at all (I think both are wrong), but it is about love and being part of the same community of Jesus and the Apostles. Unfortunately, non-Chalcedonians, Romans and Protestants, despite keeping some right practices and beliefs, no longer are part of that community.

That's the case because being the true church is not about following a set of rules, rituals and/or behaviour. It's about being a member of the same community of the Apostles and Jesus.


To certain extent,EO and RCC are quite similar.Why would Orthodox Church think that RCC is not the "True Church" of God? What are the MAIN difference between RCC and EO?
Are there any  rules, rituals and behaviours in Orthodox Church?

THe biggest difference between EO and RCC is that EO focus on "Love" while RCC focus too much on rules, rituals and behaviours  but forget about "Love".
Can I say in this way?

That would be a gross oversimplification. To say the RCC forgets about love is just not true. Please, go to a RC soup kitchen in your town. Tell me there is no love there. Or ask a Catholic who has a spiritual director if they love and feel loved by that person. Or ask someone who went to a Catholic school if parents cared enough to pay extra to send their kids there and that teachers commonly took less money to teach there.

Again, the RCC has problems or else I would not be converting to Orthodoxy. But to tar the RCC with these broad strokes is unfair. You don't need to speak ill of Catholics to be a good Orthodox person. It's much better to just focus on being a good Orthodox person than to spend your time dissecting why Catholics are wrong.

Yes!
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-KiVJHxkqCJk/UHSkdiidpJI/AAAAAAAACFU/DqPKceieMzE/s1600/2+thumbs+up.jpg)

1. Where's the love for my post? It was even better.

It even preempted this ridiculous notion about the absence of love.

2. You know J. Michael, if you reward behavior in others you find to be an improvement over their typical behavior, you increase the chances of it happening again.


1.  It was?  Well, it's comforting to know that *you* think so, anyway  ;D.

2. Thank you for your words of wisdom.

Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 27, 2012, 04:33:23 PM
Reasons why it's attractive to me:
1. It's not weird to be a devout Catholic in the USA
2. More anonymity
3. More systematic
4. Occasionally it follows western liturgical traditions
5. Less asceticism
6. Many charities, hospitals, schools
7. Part of my heritage and family

That's a good thing now?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 27, 2012, 04:36:43 PM
Reasons why it's attractive to me:
1. It's not weird to be a devout Catholic in the USA
2. More anonymity
3. More systematic
4. Occasionally it follows western liturgical traditions
5. Less asceticism
6. Many charities, hospitals, schools
7. Part of my heritage and family

That's a good thing now?

Dude you pretend to be an American and dress up for Halloween and play video games and whatever else frivolous goes on.

Some people are just more honest.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 27, 2012, 04:38:23 PM
Reasons why it's attractive to me:
1. It's not weird to be a devout Catholic in the USA
2. More anonymity
3. More systematic
4. Occasionally it follows western liturgical traditions
5. Less asceticism
6. Many charities, hospitals, schools
7. Part of my heritage and family

That's a good thing now?

Dude you pretend to be an American and dress up for Halloween and play video games and whatever else frivolous goes on.

Some people are just more honest.

I guess so.

Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 27, 2012, 04:43:55 PM
Reasons why it's attractive to me:
1. It's not weird to be a devout Catholic in the USA
2. More anonymity
3. More systematic
4. Occasionally it follows western liturgical traditions
5. Less asceticism
6. Many charities, hospitals, schools
7. Part of my heritage and family

That's a good thing now?

Dude you pretend to be an American and dress up for Halloween and play video games and whatever else frivolous goes on.

Some people are just more honest.

I guess so.



I know so.

Anyone who beats the ascetic drum of Orthodoxy is certainly not practicing it. Kinda like humility. When people close their messages about their worthlessness and ineffectual nature of their prayers, you can be sure an enormous grandiosity lies beneath.

Those people can keep their worthless prayers.

To paraphrase the neech: Christians are always bragging about the blood of others.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: vamrat on November 27, 2012, 04:50:24 PM
1- Latin.  But they don't use it anymore.

2- The girls.  There's just something about Catholic girls.  Maybe I just have the hots for Mexicans and Irish redheads.  IDK.

3- I really like their prayer book.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 27, 2012, 04:51:20 PM
Well, at least I can at least say in my defence that I'm not Orthodox and I do have a huge admiration for those ascetic monks and desert fathers.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: William on November 27, 2012, 04:53:19 PM
Reasons why it's attractive to me:
1. It's not weird to be a devout Catholic in the USA
2. More anonymity
3. More systematic
4. Occasionally it follows western liturgical traditions
5. Less asceticism
6. Many charities, hospitals, schools
7. Part of my heritage and family

That's a good thing now?

It's both good and bad, I guess. Good because it's a light yoke and bad because it's lax.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 27, 2012, 04:54:56 PM
Well, at least I can at least say in my defence that I'm not Orthodox and I do have a huge admiration for those ascetic monks and desert fathers.

Yeah, as neech pointed out, Christians can be some real fanbois and expect demand everyone to be another idol for them to fawn over.

But they don't do a whole lot themselves.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 27, 2012, 05:00:30 PM
Well, at least I can at least say in my defence that I'm not Orthodox and I do have a huge admiration for those ascetic monks and desert fathers.

Christians can be some real fanbois and expect demand everyone to be another idol for them to fawn over.

I didn't do that, I only pointed out that "less asceticism" isn't a virtue. But if you want to judge me from behind your keyboard be my guest.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 27, 2012, 05:09:57 PM
Well, at least I can at least say in my defence that I'm not Orthodox and I do have a huge admiration for those ascetic monks and desert fathers.

Christians can be some real fanbois and expect demand everyone to be another idol for them to fawn over.

I didn't do that, I only pointed out that "less asceticism" isn't a virtue. But if you want to judge me from behind your keyboard be my guest.

Is the second person singular pronoun or your name in my post?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: J Michael on November 27, 2012, 05:13:13 PM
Well, at least I can at least say in my defence that I'm not Orthodox and I do have a huge admiration for those ascetic monks and desert fathers.

Yeah, as neech pointed out, Christians can be some real fanbois and expect demand everyone to be another idol for them to fawn over.

But they don't do a whole lot themselves.

Are you a Christian?  An Orthodox Christian?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: mike on November 27, 2012, 05:18:21 PM
Reasons why it's attractive to me:
1. Big, influential and well organised
2. Scholasticism
3. Diverse

Reasons why it's unattractive
1. It's destroying it's own traditions and customs.
2. The teachings do not fit of those from the 1st millennium.
3. Some teachings that are supposed to be logical and simple are illogical and create paradoxes.
4. No traditional for my nationality and does not fit my background.
5. Orthodox girls are hotter (at least here).
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 27, 2012, 05:18:58 PM
But if you want to judge me from behind your keyboard be my guest.

And to this silly Christian notion.

We all do.

We judge all the time.

It is impossible not to.

Just acknowledging you exist in some manner is a judgement.

I have all kindsa judgement about you.

You're Dutch.
You're younger than I am.
You post on oc.net.
You seem smarter than most people nearly everyone I encounter.
You have a knack for language.
You do a lot with your time.
You are male.
You are tall.
You are thin.
You probably would do well to read some serious thought instead of Patristics, so I wouldn't have to be typing this.

And those are just some of the judgements upon which I am able to reflect.

Who knows the multitude of prejudices that I carry which allow me to encounter you at in the first place.

Without judgement, actually it is impossible to even comprehend in virtue of the fact I must judge to do so.

Cheers!


Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 27, 2012, 05:20:20 PM
Reasons why it's attractive to me:
1. Big, influential and well organised
2. Scholasticism
3. Diverse

Reasons why it's unattractive
1. It's destroying it's own traditions and customs.
2. The teachings do not fit of those from the 1st millennium.
3. Some teachings that are supposed to be logical and simple are illogical and create paradoxes.
4. No traditional for my nationality and does not fit my background.
5. Orthodox girls are hotter (at least here).

Just when I think you are incomprehensible . . .
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: mike on November 27, 2012, 05:29:03 PM
Just when I think you are incomprehensible . . .

What don't you understand?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 27, 2012, 05:30:38 PM
Just when I think you are incomprehensible . . .

What don't you understand?

Oh a joke about the Scholasticism (which I don't understand).

Then you won me back with the girls (which who couldn't understand).
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 27, 2012, 05:31:05 PM
No hard feelings, orthonorm. I let myself go, sorry for that. You're a nice guy. (See? A judgment!)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: mike on November 27, 2012, 05:35:54 PM
Oh a joke about the Scholasticism (which I don't understand).

That's not a joke.

I'm taking engineering studies. I consider myself to be a rational person. I am even sometimes laughed at that I suffer from some light form of autism. That all makes logical and orderly scholasticism very appealing to me. It'd simplify many things.

I do realise that it's a wrong approach to theology but it'd be nice if if wasn't.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Shiny on November 27, 2012, 05:50:47 PM
What kind of autism?

I'm just curious because I diagnosed myself with Asperger's.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: mike on November 27, 2012, 05:58:07 PM
What kind of autism?

These are only friends' jokes. I'm not diagnosed with anything (that does not mean I wouldn't have been if I had been tested).
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 27, 2012, 06:05:21 PM
No hard feelings, orthonorm. I let myself go, sorry for that.

De nada!

Hard feelings? You have to more than that!

Become an humorless bore, then we will talk.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 27, 2012, 06:06:24 PM
Oh a joke about the Scholasticism (which I don't understand).

That's not a joke.

I'm taking engineering studies. I consider myself to be a rational person. I am even sometimes laughed at that I suffer from some light form of autism. That all makes logical and orderly scholasticism very appealing to me. It'd simplify many things.

I do realise that it's a wrong approach to theology but it'd be nice if if wasn't.

I meant I was making a joke about Scholasticism rendering you incomprehensible and then winning me back.

Bad, bad joke since I have spent this much time explaining it.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 27, 2012, 06:08:24 PM
What kind of autism?

These are only friends' jokes. I'm not diagnosed with anything (that does not mean I wouldn't have been if I had been tested).

Autism is the diagnosis of the day. If you were in America, you could get a diagnosis no problem.

Everyone is autistic to some level, which while true, it seems many medical professionals forget about the whole "disordering" aspect of disorders.

Usually what is disordered is the family or society these people are in.

Different context, slightly different, no problem.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 27, 2012, 06:19:43 PM
Oh and autistic is just polite for idiot.

And everyone is an idiot to some degree. We live at times in worlds which are nearly impenetrable by others.

In fact, one could say this is always the case, hence the angst people have with subjectivity.

To look at another who matters so much to you and realize the nearly infinite gap between the two of you is unsettling. So we like to settle it.

Writ large, you can see the same reaction among people who have such hysterical denial about subjectivity as such.

They paint subjectivity and subjectivism as some hyper-relativism which is untenable and seek to destroy subjectivity and thus the other in the process.

We are all the same.
We are all human.
Everyone means well.
God created us equal.
Everyone is a product of their environment.
Everyone is a product of their genes.
Nothing matters.
Everyone is different.
God favors some but not all.
Everything is relative.

Empty banalities to avoid the impotence we have in front everyone we encounter.

Not to go off an a crazy tangent, but since I am riffing, this is where Sartre was nearly correct. It is not that we all free, but rather none of us are, and we are in the end utterly powerless over the other's subjectivity (the latter he made an exquisite case for).

I'll stop.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: mike on November 27, 2012, 06:27:45 PM
Autism is the diagnosis of the day. If you were in America, you could get a diagnosis no problem.

And here 50% of the society thinks it can be cured with spanking. I love the diversity!

I have to confess I understood nothing from your 2nd post.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 27, 2012, 06:34:29 PM
Autism is the diagnosis of the day. If you were in America, you could get a diagnosis no problem.

And here 50% of the society thinks it can be cured with spanking. I love the diversity!

I have to confess I understood nothing from your 2nd post.

Do you mean in Poland or America?

Most of the people I am around (in a serious way) are sane enough for spanking to be pretty much verboten, but they are not necessarily better at altering their kids behavior due to the lack of consistency in reward / punishment and keeping their expectations of their children's locus of control reasonable.

People in encounter frequently throughout my day (bus, walk down the street, whatever) pretty threaten to beat their kids as the first course of action and that threat continue until it is the 15th course of action.

Then they beat their kids or the situation is over and the kid has learned that the threat means nothing.

Worse than that sometimes they suggest hit the kid without any warning.

Couple the two above and you have the same psychological ploy which will attract women I referring to in the other thread.

Makes for terrible parenting and grossly dependent relationships and gambling problems.

The power the technique is nearly supernatural.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 27, 2012, 06:35:33 PM
The fact you understood any post of mine, BTW, evidently is a miracle according to some around here.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: mike on November 27, 2012, 06:38:41 PM
In Poland.

I've exaggerated a bit. Someone spanking his child in public would likely cause some negative reactions. The belief that spanking is a no-no gradually rises within the society but it's commonly believed that autistic/Aspenger's/similar childred just need proper upbringing.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 27, 2012, 06:42:14 PM
In Poland.

I've exaggerated a bit. Someone spanking his child in public would likely cause some negative reactions. The belief that spanking is a no-no gradually rises within the society but it's commonly believed that autistic/Aspenger's/similar childred just need proper upbringing.

If they are truly autistic that is insane.

But I have seen many cases (used to be ADHD) where lack of consistency in the household along with a relative decent level of income = ADHD, now "autism".

Poor people get such disorders a lot less often. And it ain't just for lack of medical care.

The behavior are just not "problems".

But spanking will not work to cure autism, although crushing them a little works a lot to alleviate much of the distress caused by it.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 27, 2012, 06:45:25 PM
In Poland.

I've exaggerated a bit. Someone spanking his child in public would likely cause some negative reactions. The belief that spanking is a no-no gradually rises within the society but it's commonly believed that autistic/Aspenger's/similar childred just need proper upbringing.

Michal, never come to America, guess you probably have seen a thread about here. It has to have happened.

But it is somewhat sad to see parents argue that beating kids is some God given right.

I am not against corporal punishment per se, but most people who are "for" it are the ones who probably should be forbade it.

You can usually tell who the really crazy ones are as they will emphasize the first person possessive:

Nobody had the right to tell me how to discipline MY kids.

*vomit*

No one probably has the "right" but it would probably be a good idea if they did.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Nephi on November 27, 2012, 11:03:00 PM
What I like about it:

1. Spirituality (devotions, Rosary, chaplets, etc.) and Incarnational focus
2. Latin Mass
3. Organization and influence
4. Scholasticism
5. Neat saints
6. Statues

What I don't like about it:

1. Papal infallability, supremacy, universal jurisdiction
2. Scholasticism
3. Novus Ordo
4. Liberal and modernist brands of Catholicism
5. Our Lady of Fatima
6. Priest celibacy
7. A bit too ecumenist even for me after Vatican II
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: biro on November 27, 2012, 11:31:59 PM
Nephi, you forgot one of the good things:

Italian food. ;)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Shanghaiski on November 27, 2012, 11:34:15 PM
One other thing that is nice about the RCC is you can go to mass and leave at the end and on the way to your car if people say hi it generally is just "hi."  I'm not a fan of the protestant fellowship coffee hour that many Orthodox parishes have.

God forbid that in a place where we are a minority, that we ought to try to socialize with our fellow Orthodox Christians, or have any sense of community, especially since those Protestants  were the first to start doing it.

I think he's referring to the "WHY DONT YOU COME AND JOIN US AT COFFEE HOUR?!" mentality that's often present.  It can be incredibly stressful for introvert types and very off putting.  Forcing people to socialize is not fostering community.

People who don't want to can leave after the liturgy. When did we forget how to say no in this passive-aggressive society?

You've apparently never experienced the "helpful" parishoner who "gently" guides visitors by the arm into the hall after being repeatedly told, "No, I'm sorry I can't stay."

Or have been confronted by three or four of the "welcoming committee" en masse who understand that you have to leave but really just want to show you their beautiful hall and, "Oh, here's a cup of coffee and this is so and so...don't you know her father literally helped build this church...and this is her daughter she's going to marry a priest someday say are you interested in going to seminary..."

The problem isn't that people don't know how to ,"No."  It's that people don't know how to take, "No, thank you," for an answer.

If you're not an introvert (or have some other social anxiety), you have absolutely no idea what this heavy-handed approach at fostering community can do to you and how it can literally make you run away.

Contrast that to every RCC parish I've ever been a part of where coffee hour exists, it's known, and if you want to come, great.  If not, see you next Sunday and have a lovely week.

This response of psychological terror sounds not like introversion, but mental imbalance. I'm an introvert, but I've never experience such psychological scarring worthy of Stalin's dreams.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 27, 2012, 11:38:06 PM
psychological scarring worthy of Stalin's dreams.

Not getting the reference. Could you enlighten me? Link or otherwise?

Help a pinko out . . .
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: biro on November 27, 2012, 11:39:41 PM
psychological scarring worthy of Stalin's dreams.

Not getting the reference. Could you enlighten me? Link or otherwise?

Help a pinko out . . .

If you look up novels by Robin White or Robert Harris, a couple of them deal with that.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Nephi on November 27, 2012, 11:41:06 PM
Nephi, you forgot one of the good things:

Italian food. ;)

You're right. That should've been number 1. :D
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 28, 2012, 07:04:28 AM
What I like about it:

1. Latin Mass
2. Latin Fathers (Sts. Ambrose, Augustine, etc.)
3. Scholasticism
4. Diversity. Many different rites. Latin, eastern and oriental theology is allowed to co-exist to some degree.

What I don't like about it:

1. Papal infallability, universal jurisdiction, filioque
2. Novus Ordo
3. Silly devotions like the sacred heart and an obsession with private revelations (these two often go hand in hand)
4. The bad kind of ecumenism
5. The focus on the flesh and emotions. This is often seen in their art, devotions etc.
6. Extreme legalism which causes OCD.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Papist on November 28, 2012, 10:23:25 AM
What I like about it:

1. Latin Mass
2. Latin Fathers (Sts. Ambrose, Augustine, etc.)
3. Scholasticism
4. Diversity. Many different rites. Latin, eastern and oriental theology is allowed to co-exist to some degree.

What I don't like about it:

1. Papal infallability, universal jurisdiction, filioque
2. Novus Ordo
3. Silly devotions like the sacred heart and an obsession with private revelations (these two often go hand in hand)
4. The bad kind of ecumenism
5. The focus on the flesh and emotions. This is often seen in their art, devotions etc.
6. Extreme legalism which causes OCD.
I have OCD, and from what I understand, it's genetic. It doesn't come from the Church.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: J Michael on November 28, 2012, 10:31:30 AM
What I like about it:

1. Latin Mass
2. Latin Fathers (Sts. Ambrose, Augustine, etc.)
3. Scholasticism
4. Diversity. Many different rites. Latin, eastern and oriental theology is allowed to co-exist to some degree.

What I don't like about it:

1. Papal infallability, universal jurisdiction, filioque
2. Novus Ordo
3. Silly devotions like the sacred heart and an obsession with private revelations (these two often go hand in hand)
4. The bad kind of ecumenism
5. The focus on the flesh and emotions. This is often seen in their art, devotions etc.
6. Extreme legalism which causes OCD.
I have OCD, and from what I understand, it's genetic. It doesn't come from the Church.

And here I thought it was an extreme coping mechanism.  And if you really suffered from it, you'd know that it's CDO ;D ;D.  I blame extremely poor parenting.  Not the Church.  Definitely not the Church.  Legalism doesn't cause OCD, but in some it could be symptomatic of it.

EDIT:  Btw, Chris, I'm not making fun of OCD.  I know too many people, my wife included, who suffer from it.  It can be a very heavy cross to bear.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 28, 2012, 11:07:05 AM
What I like about it:

1. Latin Mass
2. Latin Fathers (Sts. Ambrose, Augustine, etc.)
3. Scholasticism
4. Diversity. Many different rites. Latin, eastern and oriental theology is allowed to co-exist to some degree.

What I don't like about it:

1. Papal infallability, universal jurisdiction, filioque
2. Novus Ordo
3. Silly devotions like the sacred heart and an obsession with private revelations (these two often go hand in hand)
4. The bad kind of ecumenism
5. The focus on the flesh and emotions. This is often seen in their art, devotions etc.
6. Extreme legalism which causes OCD.
I have OCD, and from what I understand, it's genetic. It doesn't come from the Church.

I was thinking about this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_guilt). Sorry if you were offended by my harsh wording.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Papist on November 28, 2012, 11:32:08 AM
What I like about it:

1. Latin Mass
2. Latin Fathers (Sts. Ambrose, Augustine, etc.)
3. Scholasticism
4. Diversity. Many different rites. Latin, eastern and oriental theology is allowed to co-exist to some degree.

What I don't like about it:

1. Papal infallability, universal jurisdiction, filioque
2. Novus Ordo
3. Silly devotions like the sacred heart and an obsession with private revelations (these two often go hand in hand)
4. The bad kind of ecumenism
5. The focus on the flesh and emotions. This is often seen in their art, devotions etc.
6. Extreme legalism which causes OCD.
I have OCD, and from what I understand, it's genetic. It doesn't come from the Church.

I was thinking about this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_guilt). Sorry if you were offended by my harsh wording.
I'm not offended at all. If anything has helped me to deal with OCD effectively, it has been the kind patientience of my confessor. 
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Nicene on November 28, 2012, 11:39:27 AM
By attractive what do you mean? Like, I can find the roman catholic church here in NZ attractive because theres a church literally only a ten minute walk away instead of my orthodox church which is an hour away by Bus, train and walking.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: J Michael on November 28, 2012, 11:51:27 AM
By attractive what do you mean? Like, I can find the roman catholic church here in NZ attractive because theres a church literally only a ten minute walk away instead of my orthodox church which is an hour away by Bus, train and walking.

I'm pretty sure that we're not discussing the relationship between what draws you to something and how geographically close or distant it is to you. ;)  I guess, though, that that could be a factor for some.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 28, 2012, 11:55:09 AM
Ah, if we're talking distances anyway here I go. For me it's 2 minutes on foot to the nearest RC parish and 5 minutes on bike if I want a Latin NO mass. The closest Orthodox parish is 55 minutes away on bike.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Nicene on November 28, 2012, 11:57:18 AM
By attractive what do you mean? Like, I can find the roman catholic church here in NZ attractive because theres a church literally only a ten minute walk away instead of my orthodox church which is an hour away by Bus, train and walking.

I'm pretty sure that we're not discussing the relationship between what draws you to something and how geographically close or distant it is to you. ;)  I guess, though, that that could be a factor for some.
It certaintly is for me. Thats one reason why I think alot of people would find it attractive in the west because its so easily accessible. Though I prefer truth over the easy solution.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Shiny on November 28, 2012, 12:18:33 PM
In all honesty it would be much easier to get married to a catholic woman because there is a larger selection to choose from. Atleast that makes it attractive to me.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: J Michael on November 28, 2012, 12:39:34 PM
By attractive what do you mean? Like, I can find the roman catholic church here in NZ attractive because theres a church literally only a ten minute walk away instead of my orthodox church which is an hour away by Bus, train and walking.

I'm pretty sure that we're not discussing the relationship between what draws you to something and how geographically close or distant it is to you. ;)  I guess, though, that that could be a factor for some.
It certaintly is for me. Thats one reason why I think alot of people would find it attractive in the west because its so easily accessible. Though I prefer truth over the easy solution.

What it seems that you're saying, or at least implying (please correct me if I'm wrong), is that distance is really *not* a factor for you but it is for many others in the west who are not interested in the truth.  Did I get that right?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 28, 2012, 01:29:41 PM
By attractive what do you mean? Like, I can find the roman catholic church here in NZ attractive because theres a church literally only a ten minute walk away instead of my orthodox church which is an hour away by Bus, train and walking.

I'm pretty sure that we're not discussing the relationship between what draws you to something and how geographically close or distant it is to you. ;)  I guess, though, that that could be a factor for some.
It certaintly is for me. Thats one reason why I think alot of people would find it attractive in the west because its so easily accessible. Though I prefer truth over the easy solution.

What it seems that you're saying, or at least implying (please correct me if I'm wrong), is that distance is really *not* a factor for you but it is for many others in the west who are not interested in the truth.  Did I get that right?

Almost every RC I have met has told me, if only there were an Orthodox parish near-by . . .

Actually, if Orthodoxy somehow comes up, they usually seem surprised that I am Jewish.

A nutty post to be sure.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: J Michael on November 28, 2012, 01:38:15 PM
By attractive what do you mean? Like, I can find the roman catholic church here in NZ attractive because theres a church literally only a ten minute walk away instead of my orthodox church which is an hour away by Bus, train and walking.

I'm pretty sure that we're not discussing the relationship between what draws you to something and how geographically close or distant it is to you. ;)  I guess, though, that that could be a factor for some.
It certaintly is for me. Thats one reason why I think alot of people would find it attractive in the west because its so easily accessible. Though I prefer truth over the easy solution.

What it seems that you're saying, or at least implying (please correct me if I'm wrong), is that distance is really *not* a factor for you but it is for many others in the west who are not interested in the truth.  Did I get that right?

Almost every RC I have met has told me, if only there were an Orthodox parish near-by . . .

Actually, if Orthodoxy somehow comes up, they usually seem surprised that I am Jewish.

A nutty post to be sure.

What, you're *not* Jewish?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 28, 2012, 01:46:23 PM
By attractive what do you mean? Like, I can find the roman catholic church here in NZ attractive because theres a church literally only a ten minute walk away instead of my orthodox church which is an hour away by Bus, train and walking.

I'm pretty sure that we're not discussing the relationship between what draws you to something and how geographically close or distant it is to you. ;)  I guess, though, that that could be a factor for some.
It certaintly is for me. Thats one reason why I think alot of people would find it attractive in the west because its so easily accessible. Though I prefer truth over the easy solution.

What it seems that you're saying, or at least implying (please correct me if I'm wrong), is that distance is really *not* a factor for you but it is for many others in the west who are not interested in the truth.  Did I get that right?

Almost every RC I have met has told me, if only there were an Orthodox parish near-by . . .

Actually, if Orthodoxy somehow comes up, they usually seem surprised that I am Jewish.

A nutty post to be sure.

What, you're *not* Jewish?

Hitler would have spared me. But not all my family. And didn't.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: izrima on November 28, 2012, 01:46:49 PM
What I don't like about it:

5. Our Lady of Fatima

Could someone explain this objection? I don't know a ton about Fatima. Is there a common Orthodox objection to Fatima?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 28, 2012, 01:52:53 PM
What I don't like about it:

5. Our Lady of Fatima

Could someone explain this objection? I don't know a ton about Fatima. Is there a common Orthodox objection to Fatima?

There is are "theological" reasons why the Orthodox tend to be less accepting of such "visitations". And this one is made more complex due to political reasons.

Someone here who cares to can probably dig up some decent threads on the matter.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: J Michael on November 28, 2012, 01:55:15 PM
By attractive what do you mean? Like, I can find the roman catholic church here in NZ attractive because theres a church literally only a ten minute walk away instead of my orthodox church which is an hour away by Bus, train and walking.

I'm pretty sure that we're not discussing the relationship between what draws you to something and how geographically close or distant it is to you. ;)  I guess, though, that that could be a factor for some.
It certaintly is for me. Thats one reason why I think alot of people would find it attractive in the west because its so easily accessible. Though I prefer truth over the easy solution.

What it seems that you're saying, or at least implying (please correct me if I'm wrong), is that distance is really *not* a factor for you but it is for many others in the west who are not interested in the truth.  Did I get that right?

Almost every RC I have met has told me, if only there were an Orthodox parish near-by . . .

Actually, if Orthodoxy somehow comes up, they usually seem surprised that I am Jewish.

A nutty post to be sure.

What, you're *not* Jewish?

Hitler would have spared me. But not all my family. And didn't.

Sorry for your loss.  Why would he have spared you?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: theistgal on November 28, 2012, 02:05:46 PM
What I don't like about it:

5. Our Lady of Fatima

Could someone explain this objection? I don't know a ton about Fatima. Is there a common Orthodox objection to Fatima?

I think one of the objections (other than the one about it being a private revelation) is that the Virgin was quoted as saying that the children should instruct the Pope to pray specifically for "the conversion of Russia". Most Catholics today believe that meant to pray for its conversion from Communism. However, it has unfortunately been interpreted by some to also mean "conversion from Orthodoxy to Catholicism". I don't think that's what was intended but the horse is already out of the barn.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: elijahmaria on November 28, 2012, 02:07:49 PM
Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?


And how do RCC Christians view Her corrupted history?

Orthodoxy is little known to most.  RCC has the "marketing brand power" so to speak.  When we speak of Churches with Apostolic lineage and history, she is easily the most recognizable.  And there's a RCC parish everywhere, easy to inquire and become a part of.  Most towns don't have Orthodox parishes, and if there is one it's likely one that is very ethnic and wouldn't attract people who does not belong to that ethnicity.

This is a joke, right?

ALL early Catholic Churches in the US were ethnic churches and they STILL attracted converts...eh?...<G>
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Papist on November 28, 2012, 03:07:38 PM
What I don't like about it:

5. Our Lady of Fatima

Could someone explain this objection? I don't know a ton about Fatima. Is there a common Orthodox objection to Fatima?

I think one of the objections (other than the one about it being a private revelation) is that the Virgin was quoted as saying that the children should instruct the Pope to pray specifically for "the conversion of Russia". Most Catholics today believe that meant to pray for its conversion from Communism. However, it has unfortunately been interpreted by some to also mean "conversion from Orthodoxy to Catholicism". I don't think that's what was intended but the horse is already out of the barn.
Theistgal! So glad to see you back!  :)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Papist on November 28, 2012, 03:08:22 PM
By attractive what do you mean? Like, I can find the roman catholic church here in NZ attractive because theres a church literally only a ten minute walk away instead of my orthodox church which is an hour away by Bus, train and walking.

I'm pretty sure that we're not discussing the relationship between what draws you to something and how geographically close or distant it is to you. ;)  I guess, though, that that could be a factor for some.
It certaintly is for me. Thats one reason why I think alot of people would find it attractive in the west because its so easily accessible. Though I prefer truth over the easy solution.

What it seems that you're saying, or at least implying (please correct me if I'm wrong), is that distance is really *not* a factor for you but it is for many others in the west who are not interested in the truth.  Did I get that right?

Almost every RC I have met has told me, if only there were an Orthodox parish near-by . . .
Almost every RC you have met has said this to you? That's surprising.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on November 28, 2012, 03:08:28 PM
Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?


And how do RCC Christians view Her corrupted history?

Orthodoxy is little known to most.  RCC has the "marketing brand power" so to speak.  When we speak of Churches with Apostolic lineage and history, she is easily the most recognizable.  And there's a RCC parish everywhere, easy to inquire and become a part of.  Most towns don't have Orthodox parishes, and if there is one it's likely one that is very ethnic and wouldn't attract people who does not belong to that ethnicity.

This is a joke, right?

ALL early Catholic Churches in the US were ethnic churches and they STILL attracted converts...eh?...<G>
English is an ethnicity, the dominant one in the US.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on November 28, 2012, 03:10:46 PM
In all honesty it would be much easier to get married to a catholic woman because there is a larger selection to choose from. Atleast that makes it attractive to me.
Yeah, a lot of dating sites etc. if you are willing to submit to the Vatican.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 28, 2012, 03:12:43 PM
Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?


And how do RCC Christians view Her corrupted history?

Orthodoxy is little known to most.  RCC has the "marketing brand power" so to speak.  When we speak of Churches with Apostolic lineage and history, she is easily the most recognizable.  And there's a RCC parish everywhere, easy to inquire and become a part of.  Most towns don't have Orthodox parishes, and if there is one it's likely one that is very ethnic and wouldn't attract people who does not belong to that ethnicity.

This is a joke, right?

ALL early Catholic Churches in the US were ethnic churches and they STILL attracted converts...eh?...<G>

In Western Europe the RC parishes have always been composed of natives, Orthodox parishes on the other hand are often very ethnic (with a few notable exceptions, but even then the majority is foreigner).
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: J Michael on November 28, 2012, 03:13:44 PM
By attractive what do you mean? Like, I can find the roman catholic church here in NZ attractive because theres a church literally only a ten minute walk away instead of my orthodox church which is an hour away by Bus, train and walking.

I'm pretty sure that we're not discussing the relationship between what draws you to something and how geographically close or distant it is to you. ;)  I guess, though, that that could be a factor for some.
It certaintly is for me. Thats one reason why I think alot of people would find it attractive in the west because its so easily accessible. Though I prefer truth over the easy solution.

What it seems that you're saying, or at least implying (please correct me if I'm wrong), is that distance is really *not* a factor for you but it is for many others in the west who are not interested in the truth.  Did I get that right?

Almost every RC I have met has told me, if only there were an Orthodox parish near-by . . .
Almost every RC you have met has said this to you? That's surprising.
Consider who wrote it  ;D.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 28, 2012, 03:20:34 PM
In all honesty it would be much easier to get married to a catholic woman because there is a larger selection to choose from. Atleast that makes it attractive to me.
Yeah, a lot of dating sites etc. if you are willing to submit to the Vatican.

Where do I sign?  :P
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: izrima on November 28, 2012, 03:27:06 PM
What I don't like about it:

5. Our Lady of Fatima

Could someone explain this objection? I don't know a ton about Fatima. Is there a common Orthodox objection to Fatima?

I think one of the objections (other than the one about it being a private revelation) is that the Virgin was quoted as saying that the children should instruct the Pope to pray specifically for "the conversion of Russia". Most Catholics today believe that meant to pray for its conversion from Communism. However, it has unfortunately been interpreted by some to also mean "conversion from Orthodoxy to Catholicism". I don't think that's what was intended but the horse is already out of the barn.

Ah, ok--that makes sense. My grandmother is in her mid-80s now and still remembers as a young Catholic schoolgirl being instructed to pray for the salvation of Russia. Her memories are hazy, but I think the words she mentioned were something along the lines of "God save Russia." And if you've ever read Fr. Walter Ciszek's "With God in Russia," it seems like the Vatican was using the Russicum as a means of fighting communism at least back in the 20s and 30s when Fr. Walter was there.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: J Michael on November 28, 2012, 03:27:42 PM
Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?


And how do RCC Christians view Her corrupted history?

Orthodoxy is little known to most.  RCC has the "marketing brand power" so to speak.  When we speak of Churches with Apostolic lineage and history, she is easily the most recognizable.  And there's a RCC parish everywhere, easy to inquire and become a part of.  Most towns don't have Orthodox parishes, and if there is one it's likely one that is very ethnic and wouldn't attract people who does not belong to that ethnicity.

This is a joke, right?

ALL early Catholic Churches in the US were ethnic churches and they STILL attracted converts...eh?...<G>
English is an ethnicity, the dominant one in the US.

That's arguable, but basically irrelevant for this discussion.  I'm pretty sure you and most others here know what Mary meant by that--you know--Polish, French, Ukrainian, Irish, Italian, Lithuanian, Slovakian, Hungarian, Lemko, German, etc., and yes, even some English (British), and native-born American.  Mostly if not completely all white but most definitely *not* all English.  (Apologies if I've overlooked any other ethnicities.)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Charles Martel on November 28, 2012, 03:43:11 PM
By attractive what do you mean? Like, I can find the roman catholic church here in NZ attractive because theres a church literally only a ten minute walk away instead of my orthodox church which is an hour away by Bus, train and walking.

I'm pretty sure that we're not discussing the relationship between what draws you to something and how geographically close or distant it is to you. ;)  I guess, though, that that could be a factor for some.
It certaintly is for me. Thats one reason why I think alot of people would find it attractive in the west because its so easily accessible. Though I prefer truth over the easy solution.

What it seems that you're saying, or at least implying (please correct me if I'm wrong), is that distance is really *not* a factor for you but it is for many others in the west who are not interested in the truth.  Did I get that right?

Almost every RC I have met has told me, if only there were an Orthodox parish near-by . . .

Actually, if Orthodoxy somehow comes up, they usually seem surprised that I am Jewish.

A nutty post to be sure.
There's one right across the street from my RC Church, I was never interested.

Although there's a Greek one not to far away that's always intrigued me a bit.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Charles Martel on November 28, 2012, 03:50:32 PM
By attractive what do you mean? Like, I can find the roman catholic church here in NZ attractive because theres a church literally only a ten minute walk away instead of my orthodox church which is an hour away by Bus, train and walking.

I'm pretty sure that we're not discussing the relationship between what draws you to something and how geographically close or distant it is to you. ;)  I guess, though, that that could be a factor for some.
It certaintly is for me. Thats one reason why I think alot of people would find it attractive in the west because its so easily accessible. Though I prefer truth over the easy solution.

What it seems that you're saying, or at least implying (please correct me if I'm wrong), is that distance is really *not* a factor for you but it is for many others in the west who are not interested in the truth.  Did I get that right?

Almost every RC I have met has told me, if only there were an Orthodox parish near-by . . .

Actually, if Orthodoxy somehow comes up, they usually seem surprised that I am Jewish.

A nutty post to be sure.

What, you're *not* Jewish?

Hitler would have spared me. But not all my family. And didn't.

Sorry for your loss.  Why would he have spared you?
Maybe he had only 1 Jewish grandparent.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 28, 2012, 04:03:56 PM
Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?


And how do RCC Christians view Her corrupted history?

Orthodoxy is little known to most.  RCC has the "marketing brand power" so to speak.  When we speak of Churches with Apostolic lineage and history, she is easily the most recognizable.  And there's a RCC parish everywhere, easy to inquire and become a part of.  Most towns don't have Orthodox parishes, and if there is one it's likely one that is very ethnic and wouldn't attract people who does not belong to that ethnicity.

This is a joke, right?

ALL early Catholic Churches in the US were ethnic churches and they STILL attracted converts...eh?...<G>
English is an ethnicity, the dominant one in the US.

Ummmmmmmmmmm,

This has to be the most insane thing you have ever said here.

Please explain this to me without recourse to maps, tons of web quotes, etc.

I would be hard pressed to think of anyone I know of who would define themselves as English (the could very be without knowing it). Having spent time around the English, I would have a hard time (thank God) thinking of anyone who reminds me of them.

German. Ok.
Irish. Ok.
Black American. Ok.
Jewish. Ok.
Italian. Ok.
Belgian. Ok.
Dutch. Ok.
Ethiopian. Ok.
American. Ok.
Southern American. Ok.
Scots-Irish. Ok.
Russian. Ok.
Romanian. Ok.
Belorussian Ok.
Polish. Ok.
Arab. Ok.
Israeli. Ok.
Morrocan. Ok.
Chinese. Ok.

I am going to stop, but I could keep going. This is literally going through the people I come in contact with on a day to day basis.

The majority of people I see are not even of European descent or at least so little you can't tell and they don't consider themselves to be.

And those who are of European descent, I cannot think of ONE person who would claim English.

 
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: J Michael on November 28, 2012, 04:04:18 PM
By attractive what do you mean? Like, I can find the roman catholic church here in NZ attractive because theres a church literally only a ten minute walk away instead of my orthodox church which is an hour away by Bus, train and walking.

I'm pretty sure that we're not discussing the relationship between what draws you to something and how geographically close or distant it is to you. ;)  I guess, though, that that could be a factor for some.
It certaintly is for me. Thats one reason why I think alot of people would find it attractive in the west because its so easily accessible. Though I prefer truth over the easy solution.

What it seems that you're saying, or at least implying (please correct me if I'm wrong), is that distance is really *not* a factor for you but it is for many others in the west who are not interested in the truth.  Did I get that right?

Almost every RC I have met has told me, if only there were an Orthodox parish near-by . . .

Actually, if Orthodoxy somehow comes up, they usually seem surprised that I am Jewish.

A nutty post to be sure.

What, you're *not* Jewish?

Hitler would have spared me. But not all my family. And didn't.

Sorry for your loss.  Why would he have spared you?
Maybe he had only 1 Jewish grandparent.

Unfortunately for many, even that was 1 too many.  :(
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 28, 2012, 04:10:58 PM
By attractive what do you mean? Like, I can find the roman catholic church here in NZ attractive because theres a church literally only a ten minute walk away instead of my orthodox church which is an hour away by Bus, train and walking.

I'm pretty sure that we're not discussing the relationship between what draws you to something and how geographically close or distant it is to you. ;)  I guess, though, that that could be a factor for some.
It certaintly is for me. Thats one reason why I think alot of people would find it attractive in the west because its so easily accessible. Though I prefer truth over the easy solution.

What it seems that you're saying, or at least implying (please correct me if I'm wrong), is that distance is really *not* a factor for you but it is for many others in the west who are not interested in the truth.  Did I get that right?

Almost every RC I have met has told me, if only there were an Orthodox parish near-by . . .
Almost every RC you have met has said this to you? That's surprising.

Pert near.

Outside of the Jesuits I would have know in school, Orthodoxy is an irrelevant part of life even though the most famous of Cincinnati foods was given to us by Orthodox.

If I say Orthodox without qualification, it is almost always assumed I am speaking of Jews.

If I say Orthodox Christian, I hear almost always, you mean that Russian Catholics or Greeks Catholics, if the person is Protestant or areligious, if the person is Catholic is often just weird what they have to say.

I am talking man on the street folks not some theology or history Professor.

Been through this sorta thing at least 100 times. I am not kidding.

Now where the Orthodox are more common, I am sure it is different.

Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Charles Martel on November 28, 2012, 04:14:41 PM
Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?


And how do RCC Christians view Her corrupted history?

Orthodoxy is little known to most.  RCC has the "marketing brand power" so to speak.  When we speak of Churches with Apostolic lineage and history, she is easily the most recognizable.  And there's a RCC parish everywhere, easy to inquire and become a part of.  Most towns don't have Orthodox parishes, and if there is one it's likely one that is very ethnic and wouldn't attract people who does not belong to that ethnicity.

This is a joke, right?

ALL early Catholic Churches in the US were ethnic churches and they STILL attracted converts...eh?...<G>
English is an ethnicity, the dominant one in the US.
Actually I believe it's German.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on November 28, 2012, 04:16:09 PM
Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?


And how do RCC Christians view Her corrupted history?

Orthodoxy is little known to most.  RCC has the "marketing brand power" so to speak.  When we speak of Churches with Apostolic lineage and history, she is easily the most recognizable.  And there's a RCC parish everywhere, easy to inquire and become a part of.  Most towns don't have Orthodox parishes, and if there is one it's likely one that is very ethnic and wouldn't attract people who does not belong to that ethnicity.

This is a joke, right?

ALL early Catholic Churches in the US were ethnic churches and they STILL attracted converts...eh?...<G>
English is an ethnicity, the dominant one in the US.

Ummmmmmmmmmm,

This has to be the most insane thing you have ever said here.

Please explain this to me without recourse to maps, tons of web quotes, etc.

I would be hard pressed to think of anyone I know of who would define themselves as English (the could very be without knowing it). Having spent time around the English, I would have a hard time (thank God) thinking of anyone who reminds me of them.

German. Ok.
Irish. Ok.
Black American. Ok.
Jewish. Ok.
Italian. Ok.
Belgian. Ok.
Dutch. Ok.
Ethiopian. Ok.
American. Ok.
Southern American. Ok.
Scots-Irish. Ok.
Russian. Ok.
Romanian. Ok.
Belorussian Ok.
Polish. Ok.
Arab. Ok.
Israeli. Ok.
Morrocan. Ok.
Chinese. Ok.

I am going to stop, but I could keep going. This is literally going through the people I come in contact with on a day to day basis.

The majority of people I see are not even of European descent or at least so little you can't tell and they don't consider themselves to be.

And those who are of European descent, I cannot think of ONE person who would claim English.

 
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/English2000.png)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Charles Martel on November 28, 2012, 04:20:26 PM
From Wiki;

"German Americans made up 17.1% of the U.S. population followed by Irish Americans at 12% as counted in the 2000 U.S. Census. This makes German the largest, and Irish the second-largest, self-reported ancestry groups in the U.S. The largest Central European ancestry (if Germany is considered a Western European, not Central European country) was Polish,[citation needed] counting both Catholic Poles and Polish Jews.[citation needed] The largest Eastern European ancestry was Russian,[citation needed] including a recent influx of Ashkenazi Jews.[citation needed] There were other significant ancestries from Central, Eastern and Southern Europe, especially Italy (see Italian American and Sicilian American), as well as from French Canada."[/i]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_United_States#White_Americans
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on November 28, 2012, 04:20:53 PM
Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?


And how do RCC Christians view Her corrupted history?

Orthodoxy is little known to most.  RCC has the "marketing brand power" so to speak.  When we speak of Churches with Apostolic lineage and history, she is easily the most recognizable.  And there's a RCC parish everywhere, easy to inquire and become a part of.  Most towns don't have Orthodox parishes, and if there is one it's likely one that is very ethnic and wouldn't attract people who does not belong to that ethnicity.

This is a joke, right?

ALL early Catholic Churches in the US were ethnic churches and they STILL attracted converts...eh?...<G>
English is an ethnicity, the dominant one in the US.
Actually I believe it's German.
No, they have been keeping a lower profile ever since the World Wars.

The Germans lost the vote for translating legislation into German, although one of our own was running the house.  The US is ruled in English.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: J Michael on November 28, 2012, 04:29:19 PM
Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?


And how do RCC Christians view Her corrupted history?

Orthodoxy is little known to most.  RCC has the "marketing brand power" so to speak.  When we speak of Churches with Apostolic lineage and history, she is easily the most recognizable.  And there's a RCC parish everywhere, easy to inquire and become a part of.  Most towns don't have Orthodox parishes, and if there is one it's likely one that is very ethnic and wouldn't attract people who does not belong to that ethnicity.

This is a joke, right?

ALL early Catholic Churches in the US were ethnic churches and they STILL attracted converts...eh?...<G>
English is an ethnicity, the dominant one in the US.

Ummmmmmmmmmm,

This has to be the most insane thing you have ever said here.

Please explain this to me without recourse to maps, tons of web quotes, etc.

I would be hard pressed to think of anyone I know of who would define themselves as English (the could very be without knowing it). Having spent time around the English, I would have a hard time (thank God) thinking of anyone who reminds me of them.

German. Ok.
Irish. Ok.
Black American. Ok.
Jewish. Ok.
Italian. Ok.
Belgian. Ok.
Dutch. Ok.
Ethiopian. Ok.
American. Ok.
Southern American. Ok.
Scots-Irish. Ok.
Russian. Ok.
Romanian. Ok.
Belorussian Ok.
Polish. Ok.
Arab. Ok.
Israeli. Ok.
Morrocan. Ok.
Chinese. Ok.

I am going to stop, but I could keep going. This is literally going through the people I come in contact with on a day to day basis.

The majority of people I see are not even of European descent or at least so little you can't tell and they don't consider themselves to be.

And those who are of European descent, I cannot think of ONE person who would claim English.

 
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/English2000.png)

Unfortunately the map leaves a few questions unanswered: 1. What is meant by *claiming* English ancestry?; 2. How much English does English ancestry have to have to be English? 3. The "English" themselves are mix of other ethnicities, so how does that figure in?; 4. Perhaps most importantly relative to Mary's comment, how many of those claiming English ancestry were Catholic in the mid to late 19th and early 20th centuries compared to the other ethnicities I listed earlier?

Case in point.  One of my Ukrainian Jewish grandmothers was actually born in England.  Does that make her English?  She certainly was English by nationality until she emigrated to the U.S.  Can I, therefore, claim English ancestry through her? 
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 28, 2012, 04:30:07 PM
Ok, so can't back up your claim.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on November 28, 2012, 04:30:56 PM
Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?


And how do RCC Christians view Her corrupted history?

Orthodoxy is little known to most.  RCC has the "marketing brand power" so to speak.  When we speak of Churches with Apostolic lineage and history, she is easily the most recognizable.  And there's a RCC parish everywhere, easy to inquire and become a part of.  Most towns don't have Orthodox parishes, and if there is one it's likely one that is very ethnic and wouldn't attract people who does not belong to that ethnicity.

This is a joke, right?

ALL early Catholic Churches in the US were ethnic churches and they STILL attracted converts...eh?...<G>
English is an ethnicity, the dominant one in the US.

That's arguable, but basically irrelevant for this discussion.  I'm pretty sure you and most others here know what Mary meant by that--you know--Polish, French, Ukrainian, Irish, Italian, Lithuanian, Slovakian, Hungarian, Lemko, German, etc., and yes, even some English (British), and native-born American.  Mostly if not completely all white but most definitely *not* all English.  (Apologies if I've overlooked any other ethnicities.)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/JohnCarrollGilbertStuart.jpg)(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Charles_Carroll_of_Carrollton_-_Michael_Laty.jpg)(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/Daniel_carroll.jpg)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carroll_family
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: J Michael on November 28, 2012, 04:31:38 PM
Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?


And how do RCC Christians view Her corrupted history?

Orthodoxy is little known to most.  RCC has the "marketing brand power" so to speak.  When we speak of Churches with Apostolic lineage and history, she is easily the most recognizable.  And there's a RCC parish everywhere, easy to inquire and become a part of.  Most towns don't have Orthodox parishes, and if there is one it's likely one that is very ethnic and wouldn't attract people who does not belong to that ethnicity.

This is a joke, right?

ALL early Catholic Churches in the US were ethnic churches and they STILL attracted converts...eh?...<G>
English is an ethnicity, the dominant one in the US.
Actually I believe it's German.
No, they have been keeping a lower profile ever since the World Wars.

The Germans lost the vote for translating legislation into German, although one of our own was running the house.  The US is ruled in English.

Keeping a lower profile doesn't mean they don't exist and that their numbers are not as reported by Charles' post.

Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: J Michael on November 28, 2012, 04:32:45 PM
Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?


And how do RCC Christians view Her corrupted history?

Orthodoxy is little known to most.  RCC has the "marketing brand power" so to speak.  When we speak of Churches with Apostolic lineage and history, she is easily the most recognizable.  And there's a RCC parish everywhere, easy to inquire and become a part of.  Most towns don't have Orthodox parishes, and if there is one it's likely one that is very ethnic and wouldn't attract people who does not belong to that ethnicity.

This is a joke, right?

ALL early Catholic Churches in the US were ethnic churches and they STILL attracted converts...eh?...<G>
English is an ethnicity, the dominant one in the US.

That's arguable, but basically irrelevant for this discussion.  I'm pretty sure you and most others here know what Mary meant by that--you know--Polish, French, Ukrainian, Irish, Italian, Lithuanian, Slovakian, Hungarian, Lemko, German, etc., and yes, even some English (British), and native-born American.  Mostly if not completely all white but most definitely *not* all English.  (Apologies if I've overlooked any other ethnicities.)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/JohnCarrollGilbertStuart.jpg)(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Charles_Carroll_of_Carrollton_-_Michael_Laty.jpg)(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/Daniel_carroll.jpg)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carroll_family

Yes, and.....your point is.....? 
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: J Michael on November 28, 2012, 04:34:21 PM
Ok, so can't back up your claim.

Thanks.

To whom is that addressed?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on November 28, 2012, 04:36:27 PM
Unfortunately the map leaves a few questions unanswered: 1. What is meant by *claiming* English ancestry?; 2. How much English does English ancestry have to have to be English? 3. The "English" themselves are mix of other ethnicities, so how does that figure in?; 4. Perhaps most importantly relative to Mary's comment, how many of those claiming English ancestry were Catholic in the mid to late 19th and early 20th centuries compared to the other ethnicities I listed earlier?

Case in point.  One of my Ukrainian Jewish grandmothers was actually born in England.  Does that make her English?  She certainly was English by nationality until she emigrated to the U.S.  Can I, therefore, claim English ancestry through her? 
Is she German?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/47/British_2_pound_coin_regular_obverse.JPG/220px-British_2_pound_coin_regular_obverse.JPG)

As for the complications you introduce, is there any ethnicity, in the US or elsewhere, free of them?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 28, 2012, 04:37:05 PM
Suddenly huge maps and portraits started popping up from out of nowhere.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on November 28, 2012, 04:37:47 PM
Yes, and.....your point is.....? 
The Vatican had no shortage of its English sheep in its American flock from the beginning.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on November 28, 2012, 04:39:40 PM
Suddenly huge maps and portraits started popping up from out of nowhere.
(http://www.enchantedlearning.com/crafts/thanksgiving/map/done.GIF)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Shiny on November 28, 2012, 04:44:01 PM
Professor, and I am not trying to be critical of you (I like when you post pictures), but I would be more than happy to show you how you can resize images in the body of the text before you post.

It just makes scrolling and actually reading your posts that much better.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on November 28, 2012, 04:47:58 PM
Professor, and I am not trying to be critical of you (I like when you post pictures), but I would be more than happy to show you how you can resize images in the body of the text before you post.

It just makes scrolling and actually reading your posts that much better.
They are resized. Sometimes you can't do it without obscuring the detail on the point in question.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on November 28, 2012, 04:48:52 PM
Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?


And how do RCC Christians view Her corrupted history?

Orthodoxy is little known to most.  RCC has the "marketing brand power" so to speak.  When we speak of Churches with Apostolic lineage and history, she is easily the most recognizable.  And there's a RCC parish everywhere, easy to inquire and become a part of.  Most towns don't have Orthodox parishes, and if there is one it's likely one that is very ethnic and wouldn't attract people who does not belong to that ethnicity.

This is a joke, right?

ALL early Catholic Churches in the US were ethnic churches and they STILL attracted converts...eh?...<G>
English is an ethnicity, the dominant one in the US.

Ummmmmmmmmmm,

This has to be the most insane thing you have ever said here.

Please explain this to me without recourse to maps, tons of web quotes, etc.

I would be hard pressed to think of anyone I know of who would define themselves as English (the could very be without knowing it). Having spent time around the English, I would have a hard time (thank God) thinking of anyone who reminds me of them.

German. Ok.
Irish. Ok.
Black American. Ok.
Jewish. Ok.
Italian. Ok.
Belgian. Ok.
Dutch. Ok.
Ethiopian. Ok.
American. Ok.
Southern American. Ok.
Scots-Irish. Ok.
Russian. Ok.
Romanian. Ok.
Belorussian Ok.
Polish. Ok.
Arab. Ok.
Israeli. Ok.
Morrocan. Ok.
Chinese. Ok.

I am going to stop, but I could keep going. This is literally going through the people I come in contact with on a day to day basis.

The majority of people I see are not even of European descent or at least so little you can't tell and they don't consider themselves to be.

And those who are of European descent, I cannot think of ONE person who would claim English.

 
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/English2000.png)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Shiny on November 28, 2012, 04:50:47 PM
Sorry, I guess whenever someone quotes you the resizing is gone. Strange, I'll have to look into why that is at a later time.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: izrima on November 28, 2012, 04:52:38 PM
Outside of the Jesuits I would have know in school, Orthodoxy is an irrelevant part of life even though the most famous of Cincinnati foods was given to us by Orthodox.

Orthonorm, are you from Cincinnati? Did you go to St. X? I did  :)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: J Michael on November 28, 2012, 04:52:43 PM
Yes, and.....your point is.....? 
The Vatican had no shortage of its English sheep in its American flock from the beginning.

That's as may be.  It doesn't change the substantive meaning of Mary's post, though.  You've heard the expression, "birds of a feather flock together", haven't you?  Well, such was the case with Catholic parishes in the U.S. in the 19th and early 20th centuries.  Poles went to Polish parishes, Irish went to Irish parishes, Germans went to German parishes, and so on.  I'm sure there was some small degree of mixing but even now in some places you can see those kinds of groupings.  Only since the various ethnic groups in the U.S. have become more or less assimilated into that so-called "melting pot" have Catholic parishes become more ethnically homogeneous.  

It seems as though you're pressing a different point here which is distorting the point Mary was trying to make earlier.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: William on November 28, 2012, 04:56:55 PM
Outside of the Jesuits I would have know in school, Orthodoxy is an irrelevant part of life even though the most famous of Cincinnati foods was given to us by Orthodox.

Orthonorm, are you from Cincinnati? Did you go to St. X? I did  :)

Their football team beats ours pretty often.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on November 28, 2012, 05:00:29 PM
Sorry, I guess whenever someone quotes you the resizing is gone. Strange, I'll have to look into why that is at a later time.
Sometimes they quote while I'm revising.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: William on November 28, 2012, 05:01:42 PM
BTW I self identify as an Anglo ethnically, though most people with heavy English ancestry just call themselves American or white.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 28, 2012, 05:09:16 PM
It's hilarious when Americans try to give themselves an ethnic label. "Oh look, I totally feel Irish, my grandmom's mom came from Ireland! Go St. Patrick" "I am zozally zeeh German, my grandfather was from Germany, Bier und Bratwurst jawohl!"
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 28, 2012, 05:15:32 PM
Outside of the Jesuits I would have know in school, Orthodoxy is an irrelevant part of life even though the most famous of Cincinnati foods was given to us by Orthodox.

Orthonorm, are you from Cincinnati? Did you go to St. X? I did  :)

Sorta. No.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on November 28, 2012, 05:18:57 PM
Yes, and.....your point is.....?  
The Vatican had no shortage of its English sheep in its American flock from the beginning.

That's as may be.  It doesn't change the substantive meaning of Mary's post, though.  You've heard the expression, "birds of a feather flock together", haven't you?  Well, such was the case with Catholic parishes in the U.S. in the 19th and early 20th centuries.  Poles went to Polish parishes, Irish went to Irish parishes, Germans went to German parishes, and so on.  I'm sure there was some small degree of mixing but even now in some places you can see those kinds of groupings.  Only since the various ethnic groups in the U.S. have become more or less assimilated into that so-called "melting pot" have Catholic parishes become more ethnically homogeneous.

It seems as though you're pressing a different point here which is distorting the point Mary was trying to make earlier.
What point was that?

I'm aware of the ethnocentrism of the Vatican's parishes here back when it was everywhere in Latin, pointing out that the Orthodox would have the same unmistakable mark is the DL was in English everywhere.  The English sheep (and for long, that included the Vatican's shepherd for the US) were not exempt, except that their ethnicity dominated society at large in the US, aided by the related Irish pushing assimilation, as Archbishop Ireland, the Father of the Orthodox Church in America showed.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 28, 2012, 05:21:26 PM
It's hilarious when Americans try to give themselves an ethnic label. "Oh look, I totally feel Irish, my grandmom's mom came from Ireland! Go St. Patrick" "I am zozally zeeh German, my grandfather was from Germany, Bier und Bratwurst jawohl!"

America just makes more absurd what was absurd all along (though you Europeans couldn't figure out while busy killing each other for forever): identity.

Probably the most clear and succinct thing Derrida ever wrote was (and thus thoroughly complex and puzzling): America is deconstruction.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on November 28, 2012, 05:22:38 PM
BTW I self identify as an Anglo ethnically, though most people with heavy English ancestry just call themselves American or white.
Hard to assert your identity when everyone sees it as the default.  How many people think of Bob Hope as English?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: J Michael on November 28, 2012, 05:27:07 PM
Unfortunately the map leaves a few questions unanswered: 1. What is meant by *claiming* English ancestry?; 2. How much English does English ancestry have to have to be English? 3. The "English" themselves are mix of other ethnicities, so how does that figure in?; 4. Perhaps most importantly relative to Mary's comment, how many of those claiming English ancestry were Catholic in the mid to late 19th and early 20th centuries compared to the other ethnicities I listed earlier?

Case in point.  One of my Ukrainian Jewish grandmothers was actually born in England.  Does that make her English?  She certainly was English by nationality until she emigrated to the U.S.  Can I, therefore, claim English ancestry through her? 
Is she German?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/47/British_2_pound_coin_regular_obverse.JPG/220px-British_2_pound_coin_regular_obverse.JPG)
Well, her nationality is English.  I'm pretty sure she's got a lot of German ancestry and ancestry from other ethnicities too.

As for the complications you introduce, is there any ethnicity, in the US or elsewhere, free of them?

I only introduced those complications to try to point out what I said in another post, that you seem to be pressing a point (which I've yet to figure out what it is  :-[ ??? ;D) separate from the one Mary made and which was distorting it.



Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 28, 2012, 05:30:31 PM
BTW I self identify as an Anglo ethnically, though most people with heavy English ancestry just call themselves American or white.

Anglo isn't English. It can have broader accepted connotations: British. For some people: White person.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Shiny on November 28, 2012, 05:30:54 PM
America is deconstruction.
Hah so I take it you don't/do like REM's "Fables of the Reconstruction" (sp?)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: J Michael on November 28, 2012, 05:32:33 PM
BTW I self identify as an Anglo ethnically, though most people with heavy English ancestry just call themselves American or white.
Hard to assert your identity when everyone sees it as the default.  How many people think of Bob Hope as English?

Everybody who knows he was born in England, I reckon.  But after becoming naturalized and being in the U.S. for so long, he, like millions of other immigrants became "American" and was identified as such.  Even lost whatever English accent he had, although he didn't live in England all that long.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on November 28, 2012, 05:39:12 PM
BTW I self identify as an Anglo ethnically, though most people with heavy English ancestry just call themselves American or white.
Hard to assert your identity when everyone sees it as the default.  How many people think of Bob Hope as English?

Everybody who knows he was born in England, I reckon.  But after becoming naturalized and being in the U.S. for so long, he, like millions of other immigrants became "American" and was identified as such.  Even lost whatever English accent he had, although he didn't live in England all that long.
Btw, he was an English-American sheep of the Vatican.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 28, 2012, 05:40:01 PM
BTW I self identify as an Anglo ethnically, though most people with heavy English ancestry just call themselves American or white.
Hard to assert your identity when everyone sees it as the default.  How many people think of Bob Hope as English?

Where do you live?

"Anglo" nor "English" would be the default around here.

It would be:

Irish
German
Price Hill
OTR
West End
Avondale
8th and State
and
and
and
and

There is no default.

Most white people are going to be some Irish, German, Italian combo and they might answer that if you asked them where they are from.

Black people?

If I asked them where they are from, I will get their neighborhood (we have very tiny ones in provincial German style Cincinnati) and maybe an intersection.

They wouldn't say Africa, unless are recently from there or are extreme outliers in how they view their identity.

Of course these answers would all change depending on who asked and where they were asked.

Isa, you should know this, having lived all around.

Nationality and ethnicity are plastic concepts which are relational and exist in opposition and conditioned by circumstance.

What do you claim?

I've heard Arab, German, Chicagoan, maybe even some Scandinavian thing tossed in there by you. But I could be misremembering.

 
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: izrima on November 28, 2012, 05:41:02 PM
Their football team beats ours pretty often.

The football team is pretty good. The interest in high school football in OH is a bit scary and looks quite weird once you step back (e.g. move to Seattle).
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: J Michael on November 28, 2012, 05:48:20 PM
BTW I self identify as an Anglo ethnically, though most people with heavy English ancestry just call themselves American or white.
Hard to assert your identity when everyone sees it as the default.  How many people think of Bob Hope as English?

Everybody who knows he was born in England, I reckon.  But after becoming naturalized and being in the U.S. for so long, he, like millions of other immigrants became "American" and was identified as such.  Even lost whatever English accent he had, although he didn't live in England all that long.
Btw, he was an English-American sheep of the Vatican.

Yeah...so...?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 28, 2012, 05:54:22 PM
Their football team beats ours pretty often.

The football team is pretty good. The interest in high school football in OH is a bit scary and looks quite weird once you step back (e.g. move to Seattle).

Yeah, Seattle is a taste of "reality".

Nein danke.

Try going to Texas and see what high school football is about.

SW Ohio, Cincinnati in particular, is quite different from the rest of Ohio in the importance placed on HS football.

There are interesting reasons for this phenomenon which aren't terrible bad and actually quite good, IMHO. Although I don't care for football at all.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: dzheremi on November 28, 2012, 06:03:30 PM
This thread makes me glad I live in a so-called "minority-majority" city (42% "white" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albuquerque,_New_Mexico#Demographics)), where no matter what background someone appears to be from, you'd probably not risk much offense assuming that they're Hispanic (since, of course, Hispanics can be white, too, and a lot of people here claim Hispanic dissent via Spain, for obvious historical reasons). It eliminates this kind of arguing. Everybody enjoys their preferred color of chili and gets on with their lives.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Charles Martel on November 28, 2012, 06:10:09 PM
" Nationality and ethnicity are plastic concepts which are relational and exist in opposition and conditioned by circumstance."-orthonorm


Soo.. I'm sure you apply this to Israel and the Jews as well.  ;)

Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on November 28, 2012, 06:11:12 PM
BTW I self identify as an Anglo ethnically, though most people with heavy English ancestry just call themselves American or white.
Hard to assert your identity when everyone sees it as the default.  How many people think of Bob Hope as English?

Where do you live?

"Anglo" nor "English" would be the default around here.

It would be:

Irish
German
Price Hill
OTR
West End
Avondale
8th and State
and
and
and
and

There is no default.

Most white people are going to be some Irish, German, Italian combo and they might answer that if you asked them where they are from.

Black people?

If I asked them where they are from, I will get their neighborhood (we have very tiny ones in provincial German style Cincinnati) and maybe an intersection.

They wouldn't say Africa, unless are recently from there or are extreme outliers in how they view their identity.

Of course these answers would all change depending on who asked and where they were asked.

Isa, you should know this, having lived all around.

Nationality and ethnicity are plastic concepts which are relational and exist in opposition and conditioned by circumstance.

What do you claim?

I've heard Arab, German, Chicagoan, maybe even some Scandinavian thing tossed in there by you. But I could be misremembering.
Last I checked Ohio was still a Common Law jurisdiction.  And English the default language (at least every time I've been there).

Ohioans have a familiarity with the English Medieval legacy (Robin Hood, King Arthur, knights etc.) while they don't with that of Spain, France or Germany, let alone knowing what or who were the Missippians, Hopewell and the culture of Fort Ancient.

And they celebrate the Fourth of July even if their ancestors no where near the New World in 1776, and trace their state and society's roots in Jamestowne, as opposed to Quebec as required by the Quebec Act.

Btw, no, you are not misremembering.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Charles Martel on November 28, 2012, 06:14:11 PM
This thread makes me glad I live in a so-called "minority-majority" city (42% "white" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albuquerque,_New_Mexico#Demographics)), where no matter what background someone appears to be from, you'd probably not risk much offense assuming that they're Hispanic (since, of course, Hispanics can be white, too, and a lot of people here claim Hispanic dissent via Spain, for obvious historical reasons). It eliminates this kind of arguing. Everybody enjoys their preferred color of chili and gets on with their lives.
I grew up around black culture, believe me, from my experience their much more hung up on race than us working class white tax-slaves.

And that's the most important color when it comes to it..........Green.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Deacon Lance on November 28, 2012, 06:18:51 PM
Is she German?
The scion of the House Saxe-Coburg and Gotha?  Yes, she is.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Charles Martel on November 28, 2012, 06:21:24 PM
anyway, for what it's worth, most OC around me are centered around ethnicity, don't get me wrong, most of the RC parishes around here were distincly Italian, Irish and Polish. But as the parishes became "diverse" the fabric that held them together, like language, heritage and culture soon came undone match that with banning the Latin at Mass and the liberalism of post V-II became a lethal combo for the old ethnic parishes, most in the urban areas closed down while many of the Orthodox, especially the ethno-centric ones are still around and some even are thriving. I find the more ethinc they are, the more vibrant and populated they are.

There something to be said about not forgetting where you came from.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 28, 2012, 06:24:41 PM
This thread makes me glad I live in a so-called "minority-majority" city (42% "white" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albuquerque,_New_Mexico#Demographics)), where no matter what background someone appears to be from, you'd probably not risk much offense assuming that they're Hispanic (since, of course, Hispanics can be white, too, and a lot of people here claim Hispanic dissent via Spain, for obvious historical reasons). It eliminates this kind of arguing. Everybody enjoys their preferred color of chili and gets on with their lives.

Around here people who ID more with the "native peoples" use Laitno/a and those who tend to ID more with Spain go Hispanic. Or that is how it seems to me.

To my ears anymore Hispanic sounds either a bit old-fashioned or slightlyhighfalutin.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on November 28, 2012, 06:28:36 PM
Is she German?
The scion of the House Saxe-Coburg and Gotha?  Yes, she is.
That makes here Saxe-Coburg and Gothian, which no longer exists.  There was no Germany when the Hanovers got the name (and blood).
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on November 28, 2012, 06:29:33 PM
This thread makes me glad I live in a so-called "minority-majority" city (42% "white" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albuquerque,_New_Mexico#Demographics)), where no matter what background someone appears to be from, you'd probably not risk much offense assuming that they're Hispanic (since, of course, Hispanics can be white, too, and a lot of people here claim Hispanic dissent via Spain, for obvious historical reasons). It eliminates this kind of arguing. Everybody enjoys their preferred color of chili and gets on with their lives.

Around here people who ID more with the "native peoples" use Laitno/a and those who tend to ID more with Spain go Hispanic. Or that is how it seems to me.

To my ears anymore Hispanic sounds either a bit old-fashioned or slightlyhighfalutin.
Latinos/Spanish/Hispanics are in no sense native to OH.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Deacon Lance on November 28, 2012, 06:35:56 PM
The Vatican had no shortage of its English sheep in its American flock from the beginning.

While there were English Catholics in the colonies, my ancestors were some of them, they were very few.  The Carrolls on the otherhand were Irish.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: dzheremi on November 28, 2012, 06:47:23 PM
This thread makes me glad I live in a so-called "minority-majority" city (42% "white" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albuquerque,_New_Mexico#Demographics)), where no matter what background someone appears to be from, you'd probably not risk much offense assuming that they're Hispanic (since, of course, Hispanics can be white, too, and a lot of people here claim Hispanic dissent via Spain, for obvious historical reasons). It eliminates this kind of arguing. Everybody enjoys their preferred color of chili and gets on with their lives.

Around here people who ID more with the "native peoples" use Laitno/a and those who tend to ID more with Spain go Hispanic. Or that is how it seems to me.

To my ears anymore Hispanic sounds either a bit old-fashioned or slightlyhighfalutin.

Alright. I was just going with what's reported from the census, which lumps the two together ("Hispanic or Latino"). Maybe 'Latino' is a more political term or something. I don't know. I've never had trouble using it, and I am pretty Dove soap-level white. Most people I know use 'Latino' as well, even if they're my hue. It's perhaps a bit more accurate in so far as "Hispanic" isn't really a term you'll hear in Spanish (I guess it would be 'Hispano' or something like that, but, again, I've never heard anybody actually use this term in my daily life) if not referring to Spanish (as in Iberian Peninsula) people. So using that term if you're talking about somebody from anywhere else is like using "English" to refer to every English-speaking person (as though Americans, Brits, various Caribbeans, etc. are all the same). Generally if somebody's using "Hispanic" to refer to Latinos they're non-Latinos who don't know any better, or (in the case of this post) people using a cover-all term that is inaccurate yet easier than having to make all these distinctions every time you want to talk about people from or descended from some Spanish-speaking country.

But I agree that if someone were to use it without clarification, I would assume they're talking about Spanish people. I would not want it used to refer to me, for instance, even though my paternal grandfather actually came from Portugal, which is just the same part of the Peninsula (that's a whole different can of worms, too, re: Portuguese and Brazilians; in my experience, they do not like being associated with the Spanish-speaking world, either in Europe or Latin America).
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: theistgal on November 28, 2012, 06:50:33 PM
Theistgal! So glad to see you back!  :)

Thanks cutie.  :-* We'll see how long I last this time!  ;D

FWIW & related to the topic, things I love about the RCC are:

1. Churches everywhere, no problem, ever, in fulfilling "Sunday Obligation"
2. Family heritage: all my family on Mom's side are Catholics & we've traced that going back to at least the 1600's (my Dad's side are all dyed-in-the-wool Methodists  ;D )
3. Strong women - something I admire about Orthodoxy as well.
4. Italian food (seems to be pretty popular around here!)
5. The Rosary - my "go to" prayer when I'm on the road.
6. Funny prayers to saints, like this one to St. Anthony:
    "Tony Tony turn around, something's lost that must be found"  ;D

Things I don't love so much:

1. Sometimes too much top-down interference
2. Sometimes not enough top-down interference
3. Guitar masses et al
4. Priests who ad lib parts of the Mass to fit their homily
5. The "Nazi Salute" blessing I've witnessed twice now at two different RCC churches, where the priest invites everyone in the congregation to hold up their right hands to help him bless someone. I have photos. It's truly bizarre and disturbing.
6. Visionary proponents who push the Rosary on everyone, even though it's really meant to be a PRIVATE devotion, hint hint

That's all I can think of off the top of my head but that should do.  8)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: izrima on November 28, 2012, 07:04:44 PM
Yeah, Seattle is a taste of "reality".

Nein danke.

Oh, I wasn't being "that guy," the guy who moved to the bigger city and looks down on his hometown. I just meant that living outside of the region does give you a new, detached perspective on your home. I love Cincinnati. I'm culturally much more a Cincinnatian than a Seattleite and that isn't going to change, but man, if there aren't some beautiful mountains and good Asian food out here!
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on November 28, 2012, 07:16:12 PM
The Vatican had no shortage of its English sheep in its American flock from the beginning.

While there were English Catholics in the colonies, my ancestors were some of them, they were very few.  The Carrolls on the otherhand were Irish.
Having anglicized their names and intermarried with the English (all three pictured above had English mothers), not relevant.

This tangent was occasioned by your coreligionist EM's absolutist claims:
Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?


And how do RCC Christians view Her corrupted history?

Orthodoxy is little known to most.  RCC has the "marketing brand power" so to speak.  When we speak of Churches with Apostolic lineage and history, she is easily the most recognizable.  And there's a RCC parish everywhere, easy to inquire and become a part of.  Most towns don't have Orthodox parishes, and if there is one it's likely one that is very ethnic and wouldn't attract people who does not belong to that ethnicity.

This is a joke, right?

ALL early Catholic Churches in the US were ethnic churches and they STILL attracted converts...eh?...<G>
Hard to say "ALL" when the earliest settlers got off a ship from their homeland, England, on March 25, 1633 (OS) and had their first mass
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Cross_from_Lighthouse_Sept_2009.JPG)
and then raised their capital St. Mary around their church
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/St_Marys_City_Historic_District_Catholic_Church_Jul_09.JPG)
further in their colony, Maryland.  And especially when your archdiocesan cathedral here was founded and presided over by English until a Frenchman in 1817.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on November 28, 2012, 07:21:18 PM
Theistgal! So glad to see you back!  :)

Thanks cutie.  :-* We'll see how long I last this time!  ;D

FWIW & related to the topic, things I love about the RCC are:

1. Churches everywhere, no problem, ever, in fulfilling "Sunday Obligation"
2. Family heritage: all my family on Mom's side are Catholics & we've traced that going back to at least the 1600's (my Dad's side are all dyed-in-the-wool Methodists  ;D )
3. Strong women - something I admire about Orthodoxy as well.
4. Italian food (seems to be pretty popular around here!)
5. The Rosary - my "go to" prayer when I'm on the road.
6. Funny prayers to saints, like this one to St. Anthony:
    "Tony Tony turn around, something's lost that must be found"  ;D

Things I don't love so much:

1. Sometimes too much top-down interference
2. Sometimes not enough top-down interference
3. Guitar masses et al
4. Priests who ad lib parts of the Mass to fit their homily
5. The "Nazi Salute" blessing I've witnessed twice now at two different RCC churches, where the priest invites everyone in the congregation to hold up their right hands to help him bless someone. I have photos. It's truly bizarre and disturbing.
6. Visionary proponents who push the Rosary on everyone, even though it's really meant to be a PRIVATE devotion, hint hint

That's all I can think of off the top of my head but that should do.  8)
I was just thinking about something similar to your #6 the other day.  I don't have a big problem with perpetual adoration or adoration in general. I do have a BIG problem with it being seen as the sine qua non of the Church, pushed by the same visionary ilk.

Btw, nice to see you stop by.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Papist on November 28, 2012, 07:27:49 PM
Theistgal! So glad to see you back!  :)

Thanks cutie.  :-* We'll see how long I last this time!  ;D

FWIW & related to the topic, things I love about the RCC are:

1. Churches everywhere, no problem, ever, in fulfilling "Sunday Obligation"
2. Family heritage: all my family on Mom's side are Catholics & we've traced that going back to at least the 1600's (my Dad's side are all dyed-in-the-wool Methodists  ;D )
3. Strong women - something I admire about Orthodoxy as well.
4. Italian food (seems to be pretty popular around here!)
5. The Rosary - my "go to" prayer when I'm on the road.
6. Funny prayers to saints, like this one to St. Anthony:
    "Tony Tony turn around, something's lost that must be found"  ;D

Things I don't love so much:

1. Sometimes too much top-down interference
2. Sometimes not enough top-down interference
3. Guitar masses et al
4. Priests who ad lib parts of the Mass to fit their homily
5. The "Nazi Salute" blessing I've witnessed twice now at two different RCC churches, where the priest invites everyone in the congregation to hold up their right hands to help him bless someone. I have photos. It's truly bizarre and disturbing.
6. Visionary proponents who push the Rosary on everyone, even though it's really meant to be a PRIVATE devotion, hint hint

That's all I can think of off the top of my head but that should do.  8)
I was just thinking about something similar to your #6 the other day.  I don't have a big problem with perpetual adoration or adoration in general. I do have a BIG problem with it being seen as the sine qua non of the Church, pushed by the same visionary ilk.

Btw, nice to see you stop by.
Surprised to read this. I thought you would have agreed with the idea that by adoring the Eucharist in addition to consuming the Eucharist, we Catholics were violating its intended purpose.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: choy on November 28, 2012, 07:33:29 PM
I was just thinking about something similar to your #6 the other day.  I don't have a big problem with perpetual adoration or adoration in general. I do have a BIG problem with it being seen as the sine qua non of the Church, pushed by the same visionary ilk.

I agree.  Seems that a lot of what the RC Church is today is what has been received as "private revelations" by visionaries in the last 200 years.

Also, most people seem to be to hung up on Liturgical rubrics rather than deeper spirituality.  They seem to think that receiving Communion on a communion rail kneeling, and the host is placed on their tongue, will instantly make them better Christians.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Papist on November 28, 2012, 07:36:26 PM
I was just thinking about something similar to your #6 the other day.  I don't have a big problem with perpetual adoration or adoration in general. I do have a BIG problem with it being seen as the sine qua non of the Church, pushed by the same visionary ilk.

I agree.  Seems that a lot of what the RC Church is today is what has been received as "private revelations" by visionaries in the last 200 years.

Also, most people seem to be to hung up on Liturgical rubrics rather than deeper spirituality.  They seem to think that receiving Communion on a communion rail kneeling, and the host is placed on their tongue, will instantly make them better Christians.
I wouldn't be so quick to judge the motives of fellow Christians. I happen to be some one who believes that we should re-install our communion rails in order to help facilitate a great attitude of reverence. That doesn't mean that I, or anyone else that I know, thinks communion rails automatically equals better Christians. But it certainly helps with the lex orendi, lex credendi part of our faith.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on November 28, 2012, 07:38:20 PM
Theistgal! So glad to see you back!  :)

Thanks cutie.  :-* We'll see how long I last this time!  ;D

FWIW & related to the topic, things I love about the RCC are:

1. Churches everywhere, no problem, ever, in fulfilling "Sunday Obligation"
2. Family heritage: all my family on Mom's side are Catholics & we've traced that going back to at least the 1600's (my Dad's side are all dyed-in-the-wool Methodists  ;D )
3. Strong women - something I admire about Orthodoxy as well.
4. Italian food (seems to be pretty popular around here!)
5. The Rosary - my "go to" prayer when I'm on the road.
6. Funny prayers to saints, like this one to St. Anthony:
    "Tony Tony turn around, something's lost that must be found"  ;D

Things I don't love so much:

1. Sometimes too much top-down interference
2. Sometimes not enough top-down interference
3. Guitar masses et al
4. Priests who ad lib parts of the Mass to fit their homily
5. The "Nazi Salute" blessing I've witnessed twice now at two different RCC churches, where the priest invites everyone in the congregation to hold up their right hands to help him bless someone. I have photos. It's truly bizarre and disturbing.
6. Visionary proponents who push the Rosary on everyone, even though it's really meant to be a PRIVATE devotion, hint hint

That's all I can think of off the top of my head but that should do.  8)
I was just thinking about something similar to your #6 the other day.  I don't have a big problem with perpetual adoration or adoration in general. I do have a BIG problem with it being seen as the sine qua non of the Church, pushed by the same visionary ilk.

Btw, nice to see you stop by.
Surprised to read this. I thought you would have agreed with the idea that by adoring the Eucharist in addition to consuming the Eucharist, we Catholics were violating its intended purpose.
I hesitate to mention that I prostrate if I go in a church and it is going on, lest you drop dead.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Papist on November 28, 2012, 07:40:43 PM
Theistgal! So glad to see you back!  :)

Thanks cutie.  :-* We'll see how long I last this time!  ;D

FWIW & related to the topic, things I love about the RCC are:

1. Churches everywhere, no problem, ever, in fulfilling "Sunday Obligation"
2. Family heritage: all my family on Mom's side are Catholics & we've traced that going back to at least the 1600's (my Dad's side are all dyed-in-the-wool Methodists  ;D )
3. Strong women - something I admire about Orthodoxy as well.
4. Italian food (seems to be pretty popular around here!)
5. The Rosary - my "go to" prayer when I'm on the road.
6. Funny prayers to saints, like this one to St. Anthony:
    "Tony Tony turn around, something's lost that must be found"  ;D

Things I don't love so much:

1. Sometimes too much top-down interference
2. Sometimes not enough top-down interference
3. Guitar masses et al
4. Priests who ad lib parts of the Mass to fit their homily
5. The "Nazi Salute" blessing I've witnessed twice now at two different RCC churches, where the priest invites everyone in the congregation to hold up their right hands to help him bless someone. I have photos. It's truly bizarre and disturbing.
6. Visionary proponents who push the Rosary on everyone, even though it's really meant to be a PRIVATE devotion, hint hint

That's all I can think of off the top of my head but that should do.  8)
I was just thinking about something similar to your #6 the other day.  I don't have a big problem with perpetual adoration or adoration in general. I do have a BIG problem with it being seen as the sine qua non of the Church, pushed by the same visionary ilk.

Btw, nice to see you stop by.
Surprised to read this. I thought you would have agreed with the idea that by adoring the Eucharist in addition to consuming the Eucharist, we Catholics were violating its intended purpose.
I hesitate to mention that I prostrate if I go in a church and it is going on, lest you drop dead.
My heart stopped for a moment, but I might survive.  :D
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: theistgal on November 28, 2012, 08:07:42 PM
I agree.  Seems that a lot of what the RC Church is today is what has been received as "private revelations" by visionaries in the last 200 years.

FWIW, though, you may have noticed I placed Bernadette (who had the Lourdes visions) in my list of favorite saints. I've read a lot of books about her, some written by her contemporaries, family members and fellow nuns. She was a lot more complex than the simplistic character Hollywood created in "The Song of Bernadette" - a very spunky and brave little gal.

And unlike Mr. Grant, I love spunk. ( bonus points if you get the reference!  ;D )
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Shiny on November 28, 2012, 08:14:18 PM
Awesome theistgal is back!

Nice to see you again, how are you?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: dzheremi on November 28, 2012, 08:15:26 PM
All that private devotions stuff (and the novenas and whatnot built around them) is something I struggled with when I was RC. While I know that they're technically not required belief, in my experience not believing them effectively places you outside of the RC mainstream (at least so far as concerns the Latin Church specifically), and many people will treat you accordingly. "How can you not believe in X, Y, Z? Aren't you Catholic?" It can be pretty discouraging.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: theistgal on November 28, 2012, 08:16:42 PM
Awesome theistgal is back!

Nice to see you again, how are you?

Doing great, being a "Happy Homemaker" and baking lots of cookies during the holiday (some of them actually edible!).  8)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Papist on November 28, 2012, 08:19:13 PM
All that private devotions stuff (and the novenas and whatnot built around them) is something I struggled with when I was RC. While I know that they're technically not required belief, in my experience not believing them effectively places you outside of the RC mainstream (at least so far as concerns the Latin Church specifically), and many people will treat you accordingly. "How can you not believe in X, Y, Z? Aren't you Catholic?" It can be pretty discouraging.
Honestly, I don't know that many Catholics who are all that involved in the private devotions.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: dzheremi on November 28, 2012, 08:21:47 PM
Well, I don't think that it's a great number of Catholics that go overboard with these things in the first place. It's more that many Catholics don't treat belief in those things as though it is optional even if they don't have a personal devotion to Our Lady of Fatima or Guadalupe or whatever.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 28, 2012, 08:22:42 PM
This thread makes me glad I live in a so-called "minority-majority" city (42% "white" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albuquerque,_New_Mexico#Demographics)), where no matter what background someone appears to be from, you'd probably not risk much offense assuming that they're Hispanic (since, of course, Hispanics can be white, too, and a lot of people here claim Hispanic dissent via Spain, for obvious historical reasons). It eliminates this kind of arguing. Everybody enjoys their preferred color of chili and gets on with their lives.

Around here people who ID more with the "native peoples" use Laitno/a and those who tend to ID more with Spain go Hispanic. Or that is how it seems to me.

To my ears anymore Hispanic sounds either a bit old-fashioned or slightlyhighfalutin.
Latinos/Spanish/Hispanics are in no sense native to OH.

Tell them that.

Isa, you are about as wrong as possible on this one.

I don't even have to argue with you. Your arguments are ridiculous.

Use that large (not as large as mine) vocabulary and polyglot genius of yours to figure out what native means.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 28, 2012, 08:23:48 PM
All that private devotions stuff (and the novenas and whatnot built around them) is something I struggled with when I was RC. While I know that they're technically not required belief, in my experience not believing them effectively places you outside of the RC mainstream (at least so far as concerns the Latin Church specifically), and many people will treat you accordingly. "How can you not believe in X, Y, Z? Aren't you Catholic?" It can be pretty discouraging.
Honestly, I don't know that many Catholics who are all that involved in the private devotions.

What exactly is a "private devotion"?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Papist on November 28, 2012, 08:31:53 PM
All that private devotions stuff (and the novenas and whatnot built around them) is something I struggled with when I was RC. While I know that they're technically not required belief, in my experience not believing them effectively places you outside of the RC mainstream (at least so far as concerns the Latin Church specifically), and many people will treat you accordingly. "How can you not believe in X, Y, Z? Aren't you Catholic?" It can be pretty discouraging.
Honestly, I don't know that many Catholics who are all that involved in the private devotions.

What exactly is a "private devotion"?
Oh, stuff like particular novenas, or fatima, etc.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on November 28, 2012, 08:44:59 PM
This thread makes me glad I live in a so-called "minority-majority" city (42% "white" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albuquerque,_New_Mexico#Demographics)), where no matter what background someone appears to be from, you'd probably not risk much offense assuming that they're Hispanic (since, of course, Hispanics can be white, too, and a lot of people here claim Hispanic dissent via Spain, for obvious historical reasons). It eliminates this kind of arguing. Everybody enjoys their preferred color of chili and gets on with their lives.

Around here people who ID more with the "native peoples" use Laitno/a and those who tend to ID more with Spain go Hispanic. Or that is how it seems to me.

To my ears anymore Hispanic sounds either a bit old-fashioned or slightlyhighfalutin.
Latinos/Spanish/Hispanics are in no sense native to OH.

Tell them that.

Isa, you are about as wrong as possible on this one.

I don't even have to argue with you. Your arguments are ridiculous.

Use that large (not as large as mine) vocabulary and polyglot genius of yours to figure out what native means.
Don't need to. I can read Mr. Webster's definition: grown, produced, or originating in a particular place or in the vicinity : local
 : living or growing naturally in a particular region : indigenous; constituting the original substance or source.

Hispanics/Latinos/Spanish are native to here:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/Languages_of_Spain.svg)
and here:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/Spanish_America_XVIII_Century_%28Most_Expansion%29.png)
but not here:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/78/Ohio_Country_en.png)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 28, 2012, 08:47:23 PM
All that private devotions stuff (and the novenas and whatnot built around them) is something I struggled with when I was RC. While I know that they're technically not required belief, in my experience not believing them effectively places you outside of the RC mainstream (at least so far as concerns the Latin Church specifically), and many people will treat you accordingly. "How can you not believe in X, Y, Z? Aren't you Catholic?" It can be pretty discouraging.
Honestly, I don't know that many Catholics who are all that involved in the private devotions.

What exactly is a "private devotion"?
Oh, stuff like particular novenas, or fatima, etc.

Why I don't google stuff like this puzzles me, actually it doesn't.

It comes from trying to actually talk to people in RL and have discussions.

More and more even "discussions" in RL are googlesions.

But I should just google such stuff for online "discussions".
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 28, 2012, 08:52:14 PM
This thread makes me glad I live in a so-called "minority-majority" city (42% "white" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albuquerque,_New_Mexico#Demographics)), where no matter what background someone appears to be from, you'd probably not risk much offense assuming that they're Hispanic (since, of course, Hispanics can be white, too, and a lot of people here claim Hispanic dissent via Spain, for obvious historical reasons). It eliminates this kind of arguing. Everybody enjoys their preferred color of chili and gets on with their lives.

Around here people who ID more with the "native peoples" use Laitno/a and those who tend to ID more with Spain go Hispanic. Or that is how it seems to me.

To my ears anymore Hispanic sounds either a bit old-fashioned or slightlyhighfalutin.
Latinos/Spanish/Hispanics are in no sense native to OH.

Tell them that.

Isa, you are about as wrong as possible on this one.

I don't even have to argue with you. Your arguments are ridiculous.

Use that large (not as large as mine) vocabulary and polyglot genius of yours to figure out what native means.
Don't need to. I can read Mr. Webster's definition: grown, produced, or originating in a particular place or in the vicinity : local
 : living or growing naturally in a particular region : indigenous; constituting the original substance or source.

Hispanics/Latinos/Spanish are native to here:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/Languages_of_Spain.svg)
and here:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/Spanish_America_XVIII_Century_%28Most_Expansion%29.png)
but not here:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/78/Ohio_Country_en.png)

OK, I'll tell the latinos I know that they were not born here. Nor have they grown here.

They are native Ohioians. More so that I am. Since I wasn't born here.

When you are out of your depth you dog paddle in kiddy pool.

Stick to what you are good at, polemics against RCs and defending your right to anal sex and masturbation.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 28, 2012, 08:58:44 PM
Oh and Isa, please explain to me how the other few dozen of ethnicities I listed off the top of my head don't exist here either.

Or are not "native".

Explain to us all how we are English again.

Something about speaking American (we have in my city bilingual street and business signs in more than a few neighborhoods, one right next to where I work) and shooting off fireworks and buying stuff on the Fourth of July?

lol.

Oh and "common law".
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: dzheremi on November 28, 2012, 09:00:16 PM
I have a hard time telling if Orthonorm is being serious in this thread. Usually I don't, but now I do.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 28, 2012, 09:09:30 PM
I have a hard time telling if Orthonorm is being serious in this thread. Usually I don't, but now I do.

Are you going to claim some sacred place from whence certain ethnicities hail as well?

Are you also going to tell me, all my black neighbors, the latinos community (not in the sense of "community" but where nearly everyone is latin and Spanish THE language spoken) the Vietnamese suburb, on and on an on, that we are English.

Although they were born here, they are not native Ohioians, but really come from where?

This is all laughable to me.

And this is me attempting to take seriously the pedestrian notions of identity for second.

Like I said, America shows the absurdity of identity.

Do I come from Ohio?

None of my family came from England.

Are various portions of my body from different places?

Sorry, but I don't follow this leitkultur stuff for a second. It might make sense for the conservative Europeans for another decade or two, but has never made sense here.

Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: choy on November 28, 2012, 09:19:10 PM
Well, I don't think that it's a great number of Catholics that go overboard with these things in the first place. It's more that many Catholics don't treat belief in those things as though it is optional even if they don't have a personal devotion to Our Lady of Fatima or Guadalupe or whatever.

I was dismayed that there is more emphasis on things like Divine Mercy or Fatima and a rather total lack of mention on anything from the First Millennium.  It is like it never happened.  And most casual RCs just assume that everything today is the same exact thing as it was from Pentecost.

For me it is not so much whether the faith is in heresy or not, I leave that to the more learned folks.  I'm just dismayed at the state of the faith that even if they do possess the fullness of truth, I cannot see it the way the faith is practiced and lived and taught today.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: dzheremi on November 28, 2012, 09:37:40 PM
That was my experience too, Choy. Luckily (?), my father was raised in the pre-VII church, and I inherited some of my aunt's old religious stuff (e.g., an old missal from 1939 or so), so I knew better than to say that it is the same that it was in the first millennium. It isn't even the same as it was 60 years ago. At the time, of course, I accepted the standard RC line that such developments were organic and in some sense necessary to preserve and strengthen the faith of the people. Oops.

Orthonorm: Hahaha. That you for your reply. You illustrated why I posted the post you replied to.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on November 28, 2012, 09:38:23 PM
OK, I'll tell the latinos I know that they were not born here. Nor have they grown here.

They are native Ohioians. More so that I am. Since I wasn't born here.

When you are out of your depth you dog paddle in kiddy pool.

Stick to what you are good at, polemics against RCs and defending your right to anal sex and masturbation.
Not even the extreme Chicano nationalists, in their wildest dreams, claim OH for their  Republica del Norte ("Aztlán")
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/Aztl%C3%A1n_in_United_States_%28US48%29.svg)

The gringos and the gabachos got there first.  After the Iroquois and the rest.  Your Latinos ID with those natives?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: elijahmaria on November 28, 2012, 09:52:35 PM
Well, I don't think that it's a great number of Catholics that go overboard with these things in the first place. It's more that many Catholics don't treat belief in those things as though it is optional even if they don't have a personal devotion to Our Lady of Fatima or Guadalupe or whatever.

I was dismayed that there is more emphasis on things like Divine Mercy or Fatima and a rather total lack of mention on anything from the First Millennium.  It is like it never happened.  And most casual RCs just assume that everything today is the same exact thing as it was from Pentecost.

For me it is not so much whether the faith is in heresy or not, I leave that to the more learned folks.  I'm just dismayed at the state of the faith that even if they do possess the fullness of truth, I cannot see it the way the faith is practiced and lived and taught today.

You seem to have missed a great deal in terms of Catholic spiritual life.  It's funny how the blind monks always think the little bit of the elephant that they are touching is all that there is...
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: dzheremi on November 28, 2012, 10:20:48 PM
It's funny how people still use that terrible "blind people touching the same elephant" analogy.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on November 28, 2012, 10:31:36 PM
Oh and Isa, please explain to me how the other few dozen of ethnicities I listed off the top of my head don't exist here either.
Since you are the only one making that claim, you'll have to explain it.

Or are not "native".

Explain to us all how we are English again.
Since you are so worked up about 0.1% (the Vietnamese, even less than the 0.2% Amerinidans) and Hispanics/Latinos/Spanish 3.1%, putting the Blacks at 12.2% in just in passing, ignoring the largest group-the Germans at 26.5%-perhaps not.

You have 7.9% "American," one in the few areas in the country where such are in majority.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County.svg)

Something about speaking American (we have in my city bilingual street and business signs in more than a few neighborhoods, one right next to where I work)

I've been all over OH, and saw English everywhere.
and shooting off fireworks and buying stuff on the Fourth of July?
Why not the Second of September and Día de la Raza?

lol.
LOL indeed.

Oh and "common law".
A number of marriages in OH depend on it.

Try using the Spanish Civil Code in an OH court, and see how far it gets you.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 28, 2012, 10:32:47 PM
It's funny how people still use that terrible "blind people touching the same elephant" analogy.

It is incredibly insensitive as I will have you know the visually impaired are not hampered by yesteryear's standards:

Quote
I went on to get a Masters Degree from the University of Michigan, becoming the first legally blind visual artist to get an MFA from that school.

http://pronagger.com/about/

I am sure that is one proud school!
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on November 28, 2012, 10:33:28 PM
Well, I don't think that it's a great number of Catholics that go overboard with these things in the first place. It's more that many Catholics don't treat belief in those things as though it is optional even if they don't have a personal devotion to Our Lady of Fatima or Guadalupe or whatever.

I was dismayed that there is more emphasis on things like Divine Mercy or Fatima and a rather total lack of mention on anything from the First Millennium.  It is like it never happened.  And most casual RCs just assume that everything today is the same exact thing as it was from Pentecost.

For me it is not so much whether the faith is in heresy or not, I leave that to the more learned folks.  I'm just dismayed at the state of the faith that even if they do possess the fullness of truth, I cannot see it the way the faith is practiced and lived and taught today.

You seem to have missed a great deal in terms of Catholic spiritual life.  It's funny how the blind monks always think the little bit of the elephant that they are touching is all that there is...
That Choy knew better than to get involved doesn't mean they missed anything.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 28, 2012, 10:39:09 PM
Oh and Isa, please explain to me how the other few dozen of ethnicities I listed off the top of my head don't exist here either.
Since you are the only one making that claim, you'll have to explain it.

Or are not "native".

Explain to us all how we are English again.
Since you are so worked up about 0.1% (the Vietnamese, even less than the 0.2% Amerinidans) and Hispanics/Latinos/Spanish 3.1%, putting the Blacks at 12.2% in just in passing, ignoring the largest group-the Germans at 26.5%-perhaps not.

You have 7.9% "American," one in the few areas in the country where such are in majority.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County.svg)

Something about speaking American (we have in my city bilingual street and business signs in more than a few neighborhoods, one right next to where I work)

I've been all over OH, and saw English everywhere.
and shooting off fireworks and buying stuff on the Fourth of July?
Why not the Second of September and Día de la Raza?

lol.
LOL indeed.

Oh and "common law".
A number of marriages in OH depend on it.

Try using the Spanish Civil Code in an OH court, and see how far it gets you.

This stuff is priceless keep it coming.

Ever think of quitting your day job and selling used cars?

You have not an inkling on matters of identity, which is OK.

What do you claim to be again?

A Scandinavian-German Arab from Chicago?

But truly you must be (VSFW):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPQE3GfkrOo

EDIT: OOPS, HMS Pinafore - For He is an Englishman

Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: dzheremi on November 28, 2012, 10:45:41 PM
Why are we bringing other people's ethnicities or background into this? Isa can be a Scandinavian Arab German Egyptian. What a weird reply.

Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 28, 2012, 10:49:48 PM
Why are we bringing other people's ethnicities or background into this? Isa can be a Scandinavian Arab German Egyptian. What a weird reply.



Go back and read the thread.

He gets to be a the melting pot but the rest of us are English.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: theistgal on November 28, 2012, 10:58:20 PM
Why are we bringing other people's ethnicities or background into this? Isa can be a Scandinavian Arab German Egyptian. What a weird reply.

Go back and read the thread.

He gets to be a the melting pot but the rest of us are English.

Speak for yourself, I'm a proud French German Sac/Fox American, baby!  ;D
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 28, 2012, 11:05:39 PM
Why are we bringing other people's ethnicities or background into this? Isa can be a Scandinavian Arab German Egyptian. What a weird reply.

Go back and read the thread.

He gets to be a the melting pot but the rest of us are English.

Speak for yourself, I'm a proud French German Sac/Fox American, baby!  ;D

That is Isa speaking for you.

He believes English is the predominate "ethnicity" in the US.

I think that is one of the most bizarre things I've heard.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on November 28, 2012, 11:08:45 PM
Why are we bringing other people's ethnicities or background into this? Isa can be a Scandinavian Arab German Egyptian. What a weird reply.
Somehow Orthonorm finds the statement of the fact of the existence of English followers of the Vatican from the earliest roots of America, and the English framework that followed, as a denial of the existence of anyone else.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on November 28, 2012, 11:09:42 PM
Why are we bringing other people's ethnicities or background into this? Isa can be a Scandinavian Arab German Egyptian. What a weird reply.

Go back and read the thread.

He gets to be a the melting pot but the rest of us are English.

Speak for yourself, I'm a proud French German Sac/Fox American, baby!  ;D

That is Isa speaking for you.

He believes English is the predominate "ethnicity" in the US.

I think that is one of the most bizarre things I've heard.
and yet you say it in English.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 28, 2012, 11:13:26 PM
Why are we bringing other people's ethnicities or background into this? Isa can be a Scandinavian Arab German Egyptian. What a weird reply.
Somehow Orthonorm finds the statement of the fact of the existence of English followers of the Vatican from the earliest roots of America, and the English framework that followed, as a denial of the existence of anyone else.

No, I find that the statement that English is the predominant ethnicity in this country to be absolutely absurd. But keep it up.

I have no idea how the Vatican plays into this nor do I care.

I'm English.

My Grandfather would flip. Both to come to think about it.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: theistgal on November 28, 2012, 11:17:56 PM
and yet you say it in English.

Hmm, so are you saying that anyone who speaks English is English?

I speak Spanish sometimes - am I Spanish? No, I am not. I am an American who has learned to speak Spanish.

By the same token, Americans speak English because some of its original settlers were English. However, we actually fought a war to separate from England. So we're no longer English, even though we speak it.  :)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on November 28, 2012, 11:19:32 PM
Why are we bringing other people's ethnicities or background into this? Isa can be a Scandinavian Arab German Egyptian. What a weird reply.

Go back and read the thread.

He gets to be a the melting pot but the rest of us are English.

Speak for yourself, I'm a proud French German Sac/Fox American, baby!  ;D

That is Isa speaking for you.

He believes English is the predominate "ethnicity" in the US.

I think that is one of the most bizarre things I've heard.
and yet you say it in English.

Are you English?

Would you rather switch to German and laugh at my mistakes?

And I am not using English but American.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Shiny on November 28, 2012, 11:26:02 PM
and yet you say it in English.

Hmm, so are you saying that anyone who speaks English is English?
That's the thing I'm trying to wrap my head around, does he mean that if our primary language is English that makes us English?

I don't want to misunderstand him.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on November 28, 2012, 11:31:00 PM
Why are we bringing other people's ethnicities or background into this? Isa can be a Scandinavian Arab German Egyptian. What a weird reply.
Somehow Orthonorm finds the statement of the fact of the existence of English followers of the Vatican from the earliest roots of America, and the English framework that followed, as a denial of the existence of anyone else.

No, I find that the statement that English is the predominant ethnicity in this country to be absolutely absurd. But keep it up.

I have no idea how the Vatican plays into this nor do I care.

I'm English.

My Grandfather would flip. Both to come to think about it.
Predominant ever since February 10, 1763.

How the Vatican plays in this is how this started.  You walk into the middle of the movie and tell us how it should end.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on November 28, 2012, 11:31:44 PM
Why are we bringing other people's ethnicities or background into this? Isa can be a Scandinavian Arab German Egyptian. What a weird reply.

Go back and read the thread.

He gets to be a the melting pot but the rest of us are English.

Speak for yourself, I'm a proud French German Sac/Fox American, baby!  ;D

That is Isa speaking for you.

He believes English is the predominate "ethnicity" in the US.

I think that is one of the most bizarre things I've heard.
and yet you say it in English.

Are you English?

Would you rather switch to German and laugh at my mistakes?

And I am not using English but American.
I promise I won't laugh.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on November 29, 2012, 12:07:42 AM
and yet you say it in English.

Hmm, so are you saying that anyone who speaks English is English?

I speak Spanish sometimes - am I Spanish? No, I am not. I am an American who has learned to speak Spanish.

By the same token, Americans speak English because some of its original settlers were English. However, we actually fought a war to separate from England. So we're no longer English, even though we speak it.  :)
Yes, you fought a war.  And then turned around and adopted reception statutes to make sure the King's Common Law remained the law of the land.

The days of the Anglos are coming to an end, so we are told.  So some day in the proposed future that whole 1607-1776 thing will be just a sidetrack, an interlude.   Doesn't bother me a bit if I live to see it. Hablo Español.  But until that happens, I'll give the Anglo-Saxon devils their due.

Again, this tangent began with the denying in particular the existence of the Vatican's English flock here, and went on to denying in general the predominance of the English.  Assimilation in the US, at least until now, melts into that pot.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Nephi on November 29, 2012, 12:48:51 AM
What I don't like about it:

5. Our Lady of Fatima

Could someone explain this objection? I don't know a ton about Fatima. Is there a common Orthodox objection to Fatima?

I think one of the objections (other than the one about it being a private revelation) is that the Virgin was quoted as saying that the children should instruct the Pope to pray specifically for "the conversion of Russia". Most Catholics today believe that meant to pray for its conversion from Communism. However, it has unfortunately been interpreted by some to also mean "conversion from Orthodoxy to Catholicism". I don't think that's what was intended but the horse is already out of the barn.

I'm mixed on that particular objection. Most mainstream RC's do take it the way you describe as regarding Communism. Traditionalists/Sedevacantists are more likely to interpret it regarding conversion to Roman Catholicism, regardless whether it be from atheism or Orthodoxy. The former I don't find a problem, but the latter is a huge problem and pretty common amongst the spreaders of the Fatima message. For example:

Quote
The Consecration of Russia will reverse the upheaval and revolt against God begun by the Orthodox schism of 1054, furthered by Luther’s heresy of sola scriptura, added to by the apostasy of Freemasonry and intensified by Communism.
From: http://www.fatima.org/essentials/message/reqconsec.asp


However, my objections are more varied than just the consecration of Russia, and I'll show a couple examples. For one it affirms purgatory:

Quote
Lucia asked some more questions of the Lady. Two girls who used to come to her house to learn sewing from her sisters had recently died. Lucia wanted to find out about them, too.
“And Maria do Rosario, daughter of José das Neves, is she in Heaven?”
“Yes,” the Lady replied.
“And Amelia?”
“She is still in Purgatory.”
From: http://www.fatima.org/crusader/truestory/pdf/tspg13.pdf

And the relationship it depicts between Jesus, Mary, and humanity (Mary holding off the punishment of humanity by God):

Quote
He is going to punish the world for its crimes by means of war, hunger, persecution of the Church and of the Holy Father.
“To forestall this, I shall come to ask for the Consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart and the Communion of Reparation on the First Saturdays."
From: http://www.fatima.org/crusader/truestory/pdf/tspg26.pdf
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Charles Martel on November 29, 2012, 08:17:48 AM
Why are we bringing other people's ethnicities or background into this? Isa can be a Scandinavian Arab German Egyptian. What a weird reply.
Somehow Orthonorm finds the statement of the fact of the existence of English followers of the Vatican from the earliest roots of America, and the English framework that followed, as a denial of the existence of anyone else.

No, I find that the statement that English is the predominant ethnicity in this country to be absolutely absurd. But keep it up.

I have no idea how the Vatican plays into this nor do I care.

I'm English.

My Grandfather would flip. Both to come to think about it.
How you can not is actually absurd.

I understand now what he means by "dominant" ethnicity, it's undeniable the effect of British culture and language have had on this nation and culture from it's beginnings until this present day, our language, heritage, cultures, laws, values and norms. All heavily influenced by the former British Empire or ethnic "English" if you will. They were and still are dominating in many ways, I believe they still are the largest foreign investors or have large holdings in the country with the Dutch not far behind, you are dealing with "Old World" money and influence that hasn't really never gone away.

So the Brits still are the most dominant ethnic group in effect, yes the Germans are numerically the largest physical ethnic group on American soil but it's the English who still hold sway over the culture in many ways. Why do you think we supported England in two world wars over Germany ? You don't have to have pure numbers to "dominate" over a culture, history has proved that time and again, one need only to look over in the ME to see modern examples of that. Even here in America just see how powerful and dominating the Jewish vote and how we overwhelmingly supprot Israel on every issue yet they're a tiny minority in the country.

And the term WASP, White Anglo-Saxon Protestants that ran and controlled things came out for a reason, and they still run things in many ways not much has changed. But one thing is for sure, to deny that they are or aren't dominant is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Charles Martel on November 29, 2012, 08:25:56 AM
Why are we bringing other people's ethnicities or background into this? Isa can be a Scandinavian Arab German Egyptian. What a weird reply.

Go back and read the thread.

He gets to be a the melting pot but the rest of us are English.

Speak for yourself, I'm a proud French German Sac/Fox American, baby!  ;D

That is Isa speaking for you.

He believes English is the predominate "ethnicity" in the US.

I think that is one of the most bizarre things I've heard.
and yet you say it in English.

Are you English?

Would you rather switch to German and laugh at my mistakes?

And I am not using English but American.
Yea well go to London and then go  to Moscow and just speaking "American" and let us know how you got around in both places.

All "American" is, is a form of gutter proper English.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Charles Martel on November 29, 2012, 08:33:15 AM
and yet you say it in English.

Hmm, so are you saying that anyone who speaks English is English?

I speak Spanish sometimes - am I Spanish? No, I am not. I am an American who has learned to speak Spanish.

By the same token, Americans speak English because some of its original settlers were English. However, we actually fought a war to separate from England. So we're no longer English, even though we speak it.  :)
We're a lot more English than anything else, my French Catholic ancestors fought a war against those limey prots and lost. Our language, culture and religion was pushed aside to placate those snobby heretics from across the pond. We were for a long time for all practicial purposes "English".

The U.S. and most of Canada are heavily British and Protestant influenced.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Jetavan on November 29, 2012, 11:45:10 AM
The English are so...uhm, what's the word...ah, "angelic".
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on November 29, 2012, 12:00:40 PM
The English are so...uhm, what's the word...ah, "angelic".
"the sun never sets on the British empire, because doesn't trust the Brits in the dark"
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: sheenj on November 29, 2012, 12:06:12 PM

All "American" is, is a form of gutter proper English.

Oh really?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: izrima on November 29, 2012, 12:32:51 PM
What I don't like about it:

5. Our Lady of Fatima

Could someone explain this objection? I don't know a ton about Fatima. Is there a common Orthodox objection to Fatima?

I think one of the objections (other than the one about it being a private revelation) is that the Virgin was quoted as saying that the children should instruct the Pope to pray specifically for "the conversion of Russia". Most Catholics today believe that meant to pray for its conversion from Communism. However, it has unfortunately been interpreted by some to also mean "conversion from Orthodoxy to Catholicism". I don't think that's what was intended but the horse is already out of the barn.

I'm mixed on that particular objection. Most mainstream RC's do take it the way you describe as regarding Communism. Traditionalists/Sedevacantists are more likely to interpret it regarding conversion to Roman Catholicism, regardless whether it be from atheism or Orthodoxy. The former I don't find a problem, but the latter is a huge problem and pretty common amongst the spreaders of the Fatima message. For example:

Quote
The Consecration of Russia will reverse the upheaval and revolt against God begun by the Orthodox schism of 1054, furthered by Luther’s heresy of sola scriptura, added to by the apostasy of Freemasonry and intensified by Communism.
From: http://www.fatima.org/essentials/message/reqconsec.asp


However, my objections are more varied than just the consecration of Russia, and I'll show a couple examples. For one it affirms purgatory:

Quote
Lucia asked some more questions of the Lady. Two girls who used to come to her house to learn sewing from her sisters had recently died. Lucia wanted to find out about them, too.
“And Maria do Rosario, daughter of José das Neves, is she in Heaven?”
“Yes,” the Lady replied.
“And Amelia?”
“She is still in Purgatory.”
From: http://www.fatima.org/crusader/truestory/pdf/tspg13.pdf

And the relationship it depicts between Jesus, Mary, and humanity (Mary holding off the punishment of humanity by God):

Quote
He is going to punish the world for its crimes by means of war, hunger, persecution of the Church and of the Holy Father.
“To forestall this, I shall come to ask for the Consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart and the Communion of Reparation on the First Saturdays."
From: http://www.fatima.org/crusader/truestory/pdf/tspg26.pdf

Thank you, Nephi! This is interesting material.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Charles Martel on November 29, 2012, 01:04:25 PM
The English are so...uhm, what's the word...ah, "angelic".
"the sun never sets on the British empire, because doesn't trust the Brits in the dark"
There's an old patriotic British song with the lyrics;

" Land of Hope and Glory, Mother of the Free,
            How shall we extol thee, who are born of thee?
            Wider still and wider shall thy bounds be set;            God, who made thee mighty, make thee mightier yet,
            God, who made thee mighty, make thee mightier yet."

Seems the UK actually believed that expansionism and colonialism was some kind of divine ordained "manifest destiny" of some sort. This race actually bragged about subjecting a quarter of the world's surface at one time as some sort of agenda of pursuing God's "will".
g
These are the same people who accused the Vatican and Papists of attempting "world domination" and attacked Germany in two world wars on the grounds of political and economic "aggression" over a slice of land in Poland yet they had almost a billion people under their thumb.

Can you say "chutzpah"?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Jetavan on November 29, 2012, 01:08:43 PM
Can you say "chutzpah"?
Uh, yeah:

"Here again we have proof of the existence of Israel (http://www.british-israel.com/about.html) and the Throne of David today, for how can Jesus reign from a Throne and over a people if they no longer exist? Having seen then that the Israel people must still be in existence as a people and nation today, separate and distinct from Jewry, let us now note a few of the many prophetic descriptions of what they were to do and become during their long period of exile. These state very plainly that Israel would:

Be a NATION (Jer. 31:35-37)
Be a GREAT nation (Gen. 12:2)
Have the word GREAT as part of her name (Gen. 12:2)
Be a people regathered in a NEW home (Amos 9:9; 2 Sam. 7:10)
Become a NATION and COMPANY OF NATIONS (Gen. 35:11)
Be a KINGDOM (2 Sam. 7:12-16)
Have as emblems a LION and an UNICORN (Num. 24:8-9)


            These and many similar descriptions point unmistakably to Britain and the Celto-Saxon peoples. Others may answer to one or two of these descriptions but only Britain and the Celto-Saxon peoples answer to them all. A few nations can be called great and a few are kingdoms, but only Britain has “Great” as part of her name. Only in the settlement of Britain by many related tribes have we the regathering of a people in a new home, and only they have become “a nation and a company of nations.” Further, Britain does have the lion and the unicorn as its national emblem.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on November 29, 2012, 02:24:43 PM
Awesome theistgal is back!

Nice to see you again, how are you?

Doing great, being a "Happy Homemaker" and baking lots of cookies during the holiday (some of them actually edible!).  8)

I once nearly killed my maths teacher with my homemade cookies and they weren't even poisoned.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: J Michael on November 29, 2012, 02:34:51 PM
Native means more than just what Isa is thinking it means--whatever that is, because I'm not quite sure anymore what point he was trying to make or what's going on in this thread  ;D.  Now...cookies I can relate to  ;D ;D. (http://hostedmedia.reimanpub.com/TOH/Images/Photos/37/exps38627_CX1191210D51C.jpg)

Quote
na·tive
adjective \ˈnā-tiv\
Definition of NATIVE
1
: inborn, innate <native talents>
2
: belonging to a particular place by birth
3
archaic : closely related
4
: belonging to or associated with one by birth
5
: natural, normal
6
a : grown, produced, or originating in a particular place or in the vicinity : local
b : living or growing naturally in a particular region : indigenous
7
: simple, unaffected
8
a : constituting the original substance or source
b : found in nature especially in an unadulterated form <mining native silver>
9
chiefly Australian : having a usually superficial resemblance to a specified English plant or animal
10
capitalized : of, relating to, or being a member of an aboriginal people of North or South America : native american

native, indigenous, endemic, aboriginal mean belonging to a locality. native implies birth or origin in a place or region and may suggest compatibility with it <native tribal customs>. indigenous applies to species or races and adds to native the implication of not having been introduced from elsewhere <maize is indigenous to America>. endemic implies being peculiar to a region <edelweiss is endemic in the Alps>. aboriginal implies having no known race preceding in occupancy of the region <the aboriginal peoples of Australia>.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/native
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: griego catolico on November 29, 2012, 03:06:06 PM
I heard reformers kill oppenent.How about EO?Can you tell me when and why EO persecuted the oppenents?

Ask any Ukrainian Catholic ;)

St. Josaphat was martyred by an Orthodox Christian mob for being Ukrainian Catholic.

Josaphat martyred a whole lot of Orthodox Christians as well.

Cyrillic,

Since you made the statement, what historical evidence or primary source do you have to verify this claim?
I do not mean to enter into a debate about this, but I believe it's important that if you or anyone else is to make such a claim about a Catholic saint, then there must be some substantial evidence to back it up.

God bless,
GC
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: J Michael on November 29, 2012, 03:12:34 PM
I heard reformers kill oppenent.How about EO?Can you tell me when and why EO persecuted the oppenents?

Ask any Ukrainian Catholic ;)

St. Josaphat was martyred by an Orthodox Christian mob for being Ukrainian Catholic.

Josaphat martyred a whole lot of Orthodox Christians as well.

Cyrillic,

Since you made the statement, what historical evidence or primary source do you have to verify this claim?
I do not mean to enter into a debate about this, but I believe it's important that if you or anyone else is to make such a claim about a Catholic saint, then there must be some substantial evidence to back it up.

God bless,
GC

Break out the popcorn!  ;)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Jetavan on November 29, 2012, 03:17:19 PM
I heard reformers kill oppenent.How about EO?Can you tell me when and why EO persecuted the oppenents?

Ask any Ukrainian Catholic ;)

St. Josaphat was martyred by an Orthodox Christian mob for being Ukrainian Catholic.

Josaphat martyred a whole lot of Orthodox Christians as well.

Cyrillic,

Since you made the statement, what historical evidence or primary source do you have to verify this claim?
I do not mean to enter into a debate about this, but I believe it's important that if you or anyone else is to make such a claim about a Catholic saint, then there must be some substantial evidence to back it up.

God bless,
GC
Maybe he's using "martyred" in its original sense of "witnessed"? ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Shanghaiski on November 29, 2012, 05:44:57 PM
I heard reformers kill oppenent.How about EO?Can you tell me when and why EO persecuted the oppenents?

Ask any Ukrainian Catholic ;)

St. Josaphat was martyred by an Orthodox Christian mob for being Ukrainian Catholic.

Josaphat martyred a whole lot of Orthodox Christians as well.

Cyrillic,

Since you made the statement, what historical evidence or primary source do you have to verify this claim?
I do not mean to enter into a debate about this, but I believe it's important that if you or anyone else is to make such a claim about a Catholic saint, then there must be some substantial evidence to back it up.

God bless,
GC
Maybe he's using "martyred" in its original sense of "witnessed"? ::) ::) ::)

Perhaps the relics of those whom he unsuccessfully attempted to "witness" his faith?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Charles Martel on November 29, 2012, 06:10:42 PM
Can you say "chutzpah"?
Uh, yeah:

"Here again we have proof of the existence of Israel (http://www.british-israel.com/about.html) and the Throne of David today, for how can Jesus reign from a Throne and over a people if they no longer exist? Having seen then that the Israel people must still be in existence as a people and nation today, separate and distinct from Jewry, let us now note a few of the many prophetic descriptions of what they were to do and become during their long period of exile. These state very plainly that Israel would:

Be a NATION (Jer. 31:35-37)
Be a GREAT nation (Gen. 12:2)
Have the word GREAT as part of her name (Gen. 12:2)
Be a people regathered in a NEW home (Amos 9:9; 2 Sam. 7:10)
Become a NATION and COMPANY OF NATIONS (Gen. 35:11)
Be a KINGDOM (2 Sam. 7:12-16)
Have as emblems a LION and an UNICORN (Num. 24:8-9)


            These and many similar descriptions point unmistakably to Britain and the Celto-Saxon peoples. Others may answer to one or two of these descriptions but only Britain and the Celto-Saxon peoples answer to them all. A few nations can be called great and a few are kingdoms, but only Britain has “Great” as part of her name. Only in the settlement of Britain by many related tribes have we the regathering of a people in a new home, and only they have become “a nation and a company of nations.” Further, Britain does have the lion and the unicorn as its national emblem.
The Church is the New Israel, that is Church teaching.

You want a physical people to put that label on you might as well join the church of John Hagee and friends.
'

Otherwise it's a moot point to argue over.


Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: mike on November 29, 2012, 07:24:32 PM
Since you made the statement, what historical evidence or primary source do you have to verify this claim?
Kuncewicz was using Lew Sapieha's troops to pacify those Orthodox believers who opposed the union. Sapieha even wrote to him that his violent activities wouldn't persuade the Orthodox. He was also being accused by some Orthodox szlachta of desecrating the cemeteries and feeding dogs with dug up corpses of the Orthodox faithful.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: biro on November 29, 2012, 07:33:19 PM
Since you made the statement, what historical evidence or primary source do you have to verify this claim?
Kuncewicz was using Lew Sapieha's troops to pacify those Orthodox believers who opposed the union. Sapieha even wrote to him that his violent activities wouldn't persuade the Orthodox. He was also being accused by some Orthodox szlachta of desecrating the cemeteries and feeding dogs with dug up corpses of the Orthodox faithful.

Anecdotes are not proof.

Rumors are not proof.

Gossip and slander are not proof.

Did they give him a trial? Seek for evidence? Give him time to repent?

No, they just killed him.

That is why we don't feel sorry for you. Any time you want to just up and kill somebody, be ready to take the consequences.

Did they kill him to show that killing was bad?

Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." He did not come down off the Cross and kill them.

Just a thought.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: mike on November 29, 2012, 07:42:29 PM
Since you made the statement, what historical evidence or primary source do you have to verify this claim?
Kuncewicz was using Lew Sapieha's troops to pacify those Orthodox believers who opposed the union. Sapieha even wrote to him that his violent activities wouldn't persuade the Orthodox. He was also being accused by some Orthodox szlachta of desecrating the cemeteries and feeding dogs with dug up corpses of the Orthodox faithful.

Anecdotes are not proof.

Rumors are not proof.

Gossip and slander are not proof.

Did they give him a trial? Seek for evidence? Give him time to repent?

Are you serious?

Kuncewicz' task was to convert the Orthodox faithful to union. He was supported by the state (he had permission by the king to take over Orthodox churches by force, placing the Orthodox in  prison and he was allowed to get help from Sapieha's army) - these are facts. Sapieha complained to him he is to violent and his actions discourage the Orthodox -  that's the fact. Some szlachta complained to the king that Kuncewicz was desecrating cemeteries and corpses of the Orthodox people - that's the fact.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: biro on November 29, 2012, 07:44:39 PM
Since you made the statement, what historical evidence or primary source do you have to verify this claim?
Kuncewicz was using Lew Sapieha's troops to pacify those Orthodox believers who opposed the union. Sapieha even wrote to him that his violent activities wouldn't persuade the Orthodox. He was also being accused by some Orthodox szlachta of desecrating the cemeteries and feeding dogs with dug up corpses of the Orthodox faithful.

Anecdotes are not proof.

Rumors are not proof.

Gossip and slander are not proof.

Did they give him a trial? Seek for evidence? Give him time to repent?

Are you serious?

Kuncewicz' task was to convert the Orthodox faithful to union. He was supported by the state (he had permission by the king to take over Orthodox churches by force, placing the Orthodox in  prison and he was allowed to get help from Sapieha's army) - these are facts. Sapieha complained to him he is to violent and his actions discourage the Orthodox -  that's the fact. Some szlachta complained to the king that Kuncewicz was desecrating cemeteries and corpses of the Orthodox people - that's the fact.

People complained. Does not mean it he did what they said. People make things up all the time.

Okay, so that makes it okay to kill him? Orthodox can kill people?

Kill a guy to prove that what he *was accused* of doing was wrong?

Do something worse than what he did?

Yeah, that makes sense.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: mike on November 29, 2012, 07:50:40 PM
Since you made the statement, what historical evidence or primary source do you have to verify this claim?
Kuncewicz was using Lew Sapieha's troops to pacify those Orthodox believers who opposed the union. Sapieha even wrote to him that his violent activities wouldn't persuade the Orthodox. He was also being accused by some Orthodox szlachta of desecrating the cemeteries and feeding dogs with dug up corpses of the Orthodox faithful.

Anecdotes are not proof.

Rumors are not proof.

Gossip and slander are not proof.

Did they give him a trial? Seek for evidence? Give him time to repent?

Are you serious?

Kuncewicz' task was to convert the Orthodox faithful to union. He was supported by the state (he had permission by the king to take over Orthodox churches by force, placing the Orthodox in  prison and he was allowed to get help from Sapieha's army) - these are facts. Sapieha complained to him he is to violent and his actions discourage the Orthodox -  that's the fact. Some szlachta complained to the king that Kuncewicz was desecrating cemeteries and corpses of the Orthodox people - that's the fact.

People complained. Does not mean it he did what they said. People make things up all the time.

You really know nothing about the situation. Why would he be put on trial since he was supported by the state, he was allowed to use state forces, and the Orthodox church was illegal then?

Quote
Okay, so that makes it okay to kill him? Orthodox can kill people?

Kill a guy to prove that what he *was accused* of doing was wrong?

No. That proves he was persecuting the Orthodox. It does not justify actions of his murderers.

Quote
Do something worse than what he did?

That would be very hard. He was very skilled in persecutions and repercusions.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: biro on November 29, 2012, 07:51:59 PM
So, it's okay to kill somebody if you heard something really bad that was said about him, and you're Orthodox, and he's Roman Catholic.

Now remind me of why you are better, again?

On second thought, don't, I got the point.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: mike on November 29, 2012, 07:55:02 PM
So, it's okay to kill somebody if you heard something really bad that was said about him, and you're Orthodox, and he's Roman Catholic.

Do not put things into my mouth. I've never stated that. Griego catolico  asked for some evidences that Kuncewicz was persecuting the Orthodox. I gave them. I want nothing more.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on November 29, 2012, 08:24:36 PM
So, it's okay to kill somebody if you heard something really bad that was said about him, and you're Orthodox, and he's Roman Catholic.

Now remind me of why you are better, again?

On second thought, don't, I got the point.
Evidently not.

The Orthodox did not hunt Kuntsivych down.

Kuntsivych was hunting them down, and storming a group of Orthodox gathered to celebrate Divine Liturgy.  They fought back, and he who lived by the sword was killed by it (really, an ax).
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: username! on November 30, 2012, 12:27:27 AM
keep it on topic please OR be disciplined within forum rules -username! section moderator  this is the fair warning for all.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Apotheoun on November 30, 2012, 03:36:34 PM
I was Roman Catholic for 18 years, but I became Eastern Catholic because I found Eastern theology, spirituality, and liturgy more attractive.  I suppose finding something attractive is a rather subjective thing.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: theistgal on November 30, 2012, 04:17:53 PM
Awesome theistgal is back!

Nice to see you again, how are you?

Doing great, being a "Happy Homemaker" and baking lots of cookies during the holiday (some of them actually edible!).  8)

I once nearly killed my maths teacher with my homemade cookies and they weren't even poisoned.

Was your math teacher allergic to gluten by any chance? Or were you just allergic to math?  ;D

Oh and just to keep on topic, I have to be honest and say that the Roman Catholic Church that I knew and loved as a young person seems to be gone with the wind, and that it's attractive mainly in literature and memory. The Eastern Catholic church I attend is the brightest spot on the map right now and its light is definitely pointing me Eastward, ever eastward ...
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Apotheoun on November 30, 2012, 07:17:51 PM
Oh and just to keep on topic, I have to be honest and say that the Roman Catholic Church that I knew and loved as a young person seems to be gone with the wind, and that it's attractive mainly in literature and memory. The Eastern Catholic church I attend is the brightest spot on the map right now and its light is definitely pointing me Eastward, ever eastward ...
I think this a fair appraisal of the situation.  It is hard to say that Rome - and by this I mean the vast majority of Roman Catholic liturgies - is liturgically attractive.  Just do a search of videos on Youtube for examples of comparisons between Catholic and Orthodox liturgy and you will see how deeply rooted the liturgical problems are at the present time in the Roman Church.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: tweety234 on November 30, 2012, 07:21:01 PM
You mean EO persecused OO Christian in the past?  :o

Yes. Exile, torture, murder, mass deportations etc.



And they dare to call themselves Church Of God after all they have done?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: tweety234 on November 30, 2012, 07:27:16 PM
EO also persecuted OO and old believers .It is sinful. It is indeeded corrupted and fall.

Why does EO still believe and teach "Infallible church"?

It is about control I think. First they fail to serve the christ as good as he deserves (who am i to talk.) And then they condemn anyone who decides to leave them out of his/ her life.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: tweety234 on November 30, 2012, 07:35:15 PM
It seems that Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic are all fallen in certain point of their history. :-[ Catholic just more corrupt than Orthodox and Protestant in her history.

We're all fallen as humans.

so that excuses all the immorality in the world right?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: tweety234 on November 30, 2012, 07:39:29 PM
Why a murder can still become the recognized Siants? THey broke the Ten Commendant...

Because everyone sins.

so lets sin, so we can become saints.!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: tweety234 on November 30, 2012, 07:41:19 PM
Is there any recognized Saint who persecuted the oppenents in his/her life?

Again, you have to look at context. Freedom of religion is a very modern concept. Heresy and its spread did cause serious problems for the state.

After St. Constantine, his son, Constantius, who was an Arian, persecuted the Orthodox. That was how things worked. Are you going to judge everyone based on your own personal standards?

I assume the Saints are all holiness, full of love and mercy!! :'(

They are. However on earth nobody of us is perfect, so neither was St. Constantine.

whom by the way i am named after. And I don't like this name.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: tweety234 on November 30, 2012, 07:48:38 PM
If persecution were carried out by individuals or small group in the Church, why didn't the others in the Church/the whole Church  stop this individuals or small groups to do so?

Because not every was born 21st centyry West.
Not everybody's voice are respected before 21st century?

No, there were different values.
Their values had not been influenced by Christ and His church? (Christ taught us to love and pray for our enemies, but not kill them)
The persecutors' value may have not been influenfed by Christ and His church. How about the others in (Orthodox) Church ?


If everyone did what christ wanted, we wouldn't have a church that ruins everyone's lives today. We would have a family instead, that accepts us for what we are not what we could/should be.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: biro on November 30, 2012, 07:50:46 PM
"Ruins everyone's lives"? Where did you get that?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: mike on November 30, 2012, 08:31:30 PM
You mean EO persecused OO Christian in the past?  :o

Yes. Exile, torture, murder, mass deportations etc.



And they dare to call themselves Church Of God after all they have done?

"They"? Does that mean you are not a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: tweety234 on November 30, 2012, 08:45:55 PM
You mean EO persecused OO Christian in the past?  :o

Yes. Exile, torture, murder, mass deportations etc.



And they dare to call themselves Church Of God after all they have done?

"They"? Does that mean you are not a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church?

I am. But I am not an ancient person. I was only born 26 years ago. That is why i said they. I would personally never advocate a murder. Simply because jesus wouldn't want it.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Wyatt on December 01, 2012, 12:03:43 PM
I was a Protestant Christian for the first 18 years of my life. I was baptized by a United Methodist minister when I was only 2 hours old, and had experience with various denominations throughout my childhood in addition to being an active member of the United Methodist Church for the first part of my life. I would say what initially drew me to "the RCC" was my becoming disillusioned with Protestant Christianity. It is frustrating when you have multiple denominations fervently claiming to be upholding the beliefs and teachings of the Early Church and backing it up with Scripture...yet all of them teaching vastly different things. My frustration with Protestantism coincided with our cable television service adding EWTN, and me being able to see Catholicism in action for the first time in my life, and not through the bias of a Protestant lens. Is our Church perfect? Of course not. No religion that is made up of sinful human beings is. Is it better and more spiritually nourishing than what I was exposed to in the Protestant world? Definitely.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: griego catolico on December 01, 2012, 12:28:12 PM
Just do a search of videos on Youtube for examples of comparisons between Catholic and Orthodox liturgy and you will see how deeply rooted the liturgical problems are at the present time in the Roman Church.

Like this Youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq5olb2YPnQ&list=UUC1VpC-qvCdYzexfY81fU1Q&index=20&feature=plcp
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on December 01, 2012, 12:39:48 PM
Just do a search of videos on Youtube for examples of comparisons between Catholic and Orthodox liturgy and you will see how deeply rooted the liturgical problems are at the present time in the Roman Church.

Like this Youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq5olb2YPnQ&list=UUC1VpC-qvCdYzexfY81fU1Q&index=20&feature=plcp

That's a nice troll video you have there.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Wyatt on December 01, 2012, 01:00:17 PM
Just do a search of videos on Youtube for examples of comparisons between Catholic and Orthodox liturgy and you will see how deeply rooted the liturgical problems are at the present time in the Roman Church.

Like this Youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq5olb2YPnQ&list=UUC1VpC-qvCdYzexfY81fU1Q&index=20&feature=plcp

That's a nice troll video you have there.
Yeah, really. Just to even out the heavy bias:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94sa1Byb7fw
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on December 01, 2012, 01:21:45 PM
Just do a search of videos on Youtube for examples of comparisons between Catholic and Orthodox liturgy and you will see how deeply rooted the liturgical problems are at the present time in the Roman Church.

Like this Youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq5olb2YPnQ&list=UUC1VpC-qvCdYzexfY81fU1Q&index=20&feature=plcp

That's a nice troll video you have there.
Yeah, really. Just to even out the heavy bias:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94sa1Byb7fw
is one of your bishops there?

Can you post an Orthodox version of the Los Angeles mass?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: username! on December 01, 2012, 04:55:07 PM
Awesome theistgal is back!

Nice to see you again, how are you?

Doing great, being a "Happy Homemaker" and baking lots of cookies during the holiday (some of them actually edible!).  8)

I once nearly killed my maths teacher with my homemade cookies and they weren't even poisoned.

Was your math teacher allergic to gluten by any chance? Or were you just allergic to math?  ;D

Oh and just to keep on topic, I have to be honest and say that the Roman Catholic Church that I knew and loved as a young person seems to be gone with the wind, and that it's attractive mainly in literature and memory. The Eastern Catholic church I attend is the brightest spot on the map right now and its light is definitely pointing me Eastward, ever eastward ...
Does your parish use the new divine liturgy?  Moving "Eastward" is like parishes in Stamford Eparchy in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church...... Julian Calender, full liturgies.... Like St. Elias Brampton, ON of youtube fame. I live in Greek Catholic central for the USA..
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Wyatt on December 01, 2012, 06:52:39 PM
Just do a search of videos on Youtube for examples of comparisons between Catholic and Orthodox liturgy and you will see how deeply rooted the liturgical problems are at the present time in the Roman Church.

Like this Youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq5olb2YPnQ&list=UUC1VpC-qvCdYzexfY81fU1Q&index=20&feature=plcp

That's a nice troll video you have there.
Yeah, really. Just to even out the heavy bias:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94sa1Byb7fw
is one of your bishops there?
No. Why do you ask?

Can you post an Orthodox version of the Los Angeles mass?
I don't know...I don't feel the need to. My only point was that pointing to a video on YouTube as "proof" that our Church and liturgy is a joke is stupid. There are many parishes that celebrate Mass reverently, including my own. Unfortunately, I don't have a video recording of Mass at my own parish.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: dzheremi on December 01, 2012, 07:07:58 PM
As an ex-RC, I would rather focus on the fact that the video in question was created and uploaded by a RC who sees that this is a problem. Good for him. It is. Particularly given the "top-down" nature of the RC ecclesiology and the somewhat liberal mindset of many RC bishops, when irreverence is allowed anywhere it can signify a deeply-rooted problem...if you're willing to see it, that is, and not dismiss it because your own parish is not that bad.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on December 01, 2012, 07:11:30 PM
Just do a search of videos on Youtube for examples of comparisons between Catholic and Orthodox liturgy and you will see how deeply rooted the liturgical problems are at the present time in the Roman Church.

Like this Youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq5olb2YPnQ&list=UUC1VpC-qvCdYzexfY81fU1Q&index=20&feature=plcp

That's a nice troll video you have there.
Yeah, really. Just to even out the heavy bias:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94sa1Byb7fw
is one of your bishops there?
No. Why do you ask?
Seems that the bishops at the Los Angeles mass have you outnumbered.

Can you post an Orthodox version of the Los Angeles mass?
I don't know...I don't feel the need to. My only point was that pointing to a video on YouTube as "proof" that our Church and liturgy is a joke is stupid. There are many parishes that celebrate Mass reverently, including my own. Unfortunately, I don't have a video recording of Mass at my own parish.
doesn't matter, given the weight you give to your "magisterium," on full display in Los Angeles.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on December 01, 2012, 07:13:39 PM
As an ex-RC, I would rather focus on the fact that the video in question was created and uploaded by a RC who sees that this is a problem. Good for him. It is. Particularly given the "top-down" nature of the RC ecclesiology and the somewhat liberal mindset of many RC bishops, when irreverence is allowed anywhere it can signify a deeply-rooted problem...if you're willing to see it, that is, and not dismiss it because your own parish is not that bad.

Did you comment on the private YIM thread? I can't remember if you are in the private section.

I think anyone taking RCs to task for liturgical irregularities should at least let the Orthodox know what they think about what was discussed there.

I know you are not EO, but I can't see what I you cannot comment.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Wyatt on December 01, 2012, 07:24:34 PM
doesn't matter, given the weight you give to your "magisterium," on full display in Los Angeles.
What happened in that video has nothing to do with the Magisterium. The Magisterium does not nor has it ever sanctioned what was in that video. Do you know what the Magisterium is? Your use of the word suggests that you do not.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Apotheoun on December 01, 2012, 07:26:38 PM
Just do a search of videos on Youtube for examples of comparisons between Catholic and Orthodox liturgy and you will see how deeply rooted the liturgical problems are at the present time in the Roman Church.

Like this Youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq5olb2YPnQ&list=UUC1VpC-qvCdYzexfY81fU1Q&index=20&feature=plcp

That's a nice troll video you have there.
Yeah, really. Just to even out the heavy bias:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94sa1Byb7fw
Sadly the liturgy depicted in the video posted by Griego is more common than the one you posted.  In the Latin diocese in my area there are clown masses and other strange things done during the liturgy.  Alas, the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite is just that, extraordinary, that is, it is rarely celebrated in most parishes in the Latin Church.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Apotheoun on December 01, 2012, 07:34:07 PM
doesn't matter, given the weight you give to your "magisterium," on full display in Los Angeles.
What happened in that video has nothing to do with the Magisterium. The Magisterium does not nor has it ever sanctioned what was in that video. Do you know what the Magisterium is? Your use of the word suggests that you do not.
Part of the problem with the liturgy in the Roman Church is that the "magisterium" through its enactments has replaced Tradition.  Things are no longer done during the liturgy simply because of time immemorial custom; instead, they are to be done because the GIRM says so.  Although, as is clear from the Masses I have attended in the Oakland Diocese, along with Masses I have been forced to endure in other states over the course of the last ten years, the GIRM itself is often ignored. 

What is the cause of all of this anarchy?  As I said above, I attribute this situation to a loss of the sense of Tradition within the Roman Church, which was brought about by the radical liturgical reforms of the late 1960s and early 1970s.  Is it any wonder that Catholics (laity and clergy alike) have become theologically confused when time immemorial liturgical practices were simply discarded in a matter of a few years and things that had appeared sacrosanct were suddenly held to be of no importance? 

A crisis was inevitable.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: theistgal on December 01, 2012, 07:38:49 PM
Sadly the liturgy depicted in the video posted by Griego is more common than the one you posted.  In the Latin diocese in my area there are clown masses and other strange things done during the liturgy.  Alas, the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite is just that, extraordinary, that is, it is rarely celebrated in most parishes in the Latin Church.

If they're being done in your diocese at parish churches, on a regular basis every Sunday, you ought to notify the bishop, who may not be aware of it. "Clown" is definitely NOT one of the 21 approved rites!!   :o

I haven't seen one myself since the late '70's, then it was at a university youth group Mass, full of all sorts of other abuses which I knew even then weren't approved by the Church - which was what made it so exciting, back then when I was a teenager and thought rebellion against my elders was cool.  ::)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Apotheoun on December 01, 2012, 08:05:53 PM
Sadly the liturgy depicted in the video posted by Griego is more common than the one you posted.  In the Latin diocese in my area there are clown masses and other strange things done during the liturgy.  Alas, the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite is just that, extraordinary, that is, it is rarely celebrated in most parishes in the Latin Church.

If they're being done in your diocese at parish churches, on a regular basis every Sunday, you ought to notify the bishop, who may not be aware of it. "Clown" is definitely NOT one of the 21 approved rites!!   :o

I haven't seen one myself since the late '70's, then it was at a university youth group Mass, full of all sorts of other abuses which I knew even then weren't approved by the Church - which was what made it so exciting, back then when I was a teenager and thought rebellion against my elders was cool.  ::)
I am sure that the Latin bishop already knows, and I gave up fighting for things in the Roman Church when I became Eastern Catholic.  To be honest, it had been a fruitless battle anyway during the Bishop Cummins years, which I called "the Babylonian Captivity of the Diocese of Oakland."  I realized it was a losing battle when the Diocese adopted its strategic plan entitled "Faith in Service to the World," which spoke about the implementation of "new liturgical rites" that could be celebrated by lay people without the need of priests, and which encouraged acceptance of "different kinds of families." [1]  The strategic plan endorsed the so-called "Inclusive Church" model, which was to be followed in all things, and moral judgments about behaviors contrary to the true good of the human person appeared to be anathema, or to put that into plain English, morality was a thing of the past, especially on sexual issues.  I am happy that I am no longer a member of the Diocese of Oakland, and other than attending Latin parishes on occasion, that is, when I cannot attend a Byzantine liturgy, I have little to do with the official Roman Church in the East Bay Area.


Notes:

[1]  In the Spanish language edition of the strategic plan the English language phrase "different kinds of families" was more clearly defined as "diferentes clases de familias, incluyendo a los homosexuales y lesbianas."  Faith in Service to the World, Spanish Edition, page 31.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on December 01, 2012, 08:31:50 PM
As an ex-RC, I would rather focus on the fact that the video in question was created and uploaded by a RC who sees that this is a problem. Good for him. It is. Particularly given the "top-down" nature of the RC ecclesiology and the somewhat liberal mindset of many RC bishops, when irreverence is allowed anywhere it can signify a deeply-rooted problem...if you're willing to see it, that is, and not dismiss it because your own parish is not that bad.

Did you comment on the private YIM thread? I can't remember if you are in the private section.

I think anyone taking RCs to task for liturgical irregularities should at least let the Orthodox know what they think about what was discussed there.

I know you are not EO, but I can't see what I you cannot comment.
YIM?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on December 01, 2012, 08:34:06 PM
doesn't matter, given the weight you give to your "magisterium," on full display in Los Angeles.
What happened in that video has nothing to do with the Magisterium.

au contraire.  Quite a few of them were there on camera.

The Magisterium does not nor has it ever sanctioned what was in that video.
And yet they were there.

Do you know what the Magisterium is? Your use of the word suggests that you do not.
Your suggestion that I don't only indicates your discomfiture that I do.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Shiny on December 01, 2012, 08:48:30 PM
Sent you a PM professor.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on December 01, 2012, 08:50:50 PM
As an ex-RC, I would rather focus on the fact that the video in question was created and uploaded by a RC who sees that this is a problem. Good for him. It is. Particularly given the "top-down" nature of the RC ecclesiology and the somewhat liberal mindset of many RC bishops, when irreverence is allowed anywhere it can signify a deeply-rooted problem...if you're willing to see it, that is, and not dismiss it because your own parish is not that bad.

Did you comment on the private YIM thread? I can't remember if you are in the private section.

I think anyone taking RCs to task for liturgical irregularities should at least let the Orthodox know what they think about what was discussed there.

I know you are not EO, but I can't see what I you cannot comment.
YIM?

Yesh, YIM, YAM, yeshuaisiam.

That WCC thread. I don't think you weighed on that thread regarding the events which were put forth by YIM.

I would be interested in your take.

Only agabus seems to have offered an opinion.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: dzheremi on December 01, 2012, 09:43:43 PM
Did you comment on the private YIM thread? I can't remember if you are in the private section.

I think anyone taking RCs to task for liturgical irregularities should at least let the Orthodox know what they think about what was discussed there.

No. I try to stay away from those threads. I already know that there are liturgical irregularities in the Orthodox Church, though, if that's what it's about. I would repeat the same thing there as I wrote, in that case: If other Orthodox are noticing it and the bishops aren't doing anything about it, then it's a problem that affects all the church, and we shouldn't brush it off just because our own parish might not be that bad. So I don't so much see it as taking the RCC to task (though if their own people want to do that, I'd support it, for whatever that's worth) as it is trying to hold everybody to the same standard.

[1]  In the Spanish language edition of the strategic plan the English language phrase "different kinds of families" was more clearly defined as "diferentes clases de familias, incluyendo a los homosexuales y lesbianas."  Faith in Service to the World, Spanish Edition, page 31.

Yikes. I would say "no mames", but we all know you're not pulling our legs... :(
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Wyatt on December 01, 2012, 10:35:31 PM
doesn't matter, given the weight you give to your "magisterium," on full display in Los Angeles.
What happened in that video has nothing to do with the Magisterium.

au contraire.  Quite a few of them were there on camera.
There were quite a few Bishops there, but what does that have to do with the Magisterium?

The Magisterium does not nor has it ever sanctioned what was in that video.
And yet they were there.
The Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Church, which is all of the Bishops and the Pope. A few Bishops does not count as the Magisterium.

Do you know what the Magisterium is? Your use of the word suggests that you do not.
Your suggestion that I don't only indicates your discomfiture that I do.
You only further prove in this post that you don't understand what it is.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on December 01, 2012, 10:41:59 PM
doesn't matter, given the weight you give to your "magisterium," on full display in Los Angeles.
What happened in that video has nothing to do with the Magisterium.

au contraire.  Quite a few of them were there on camera.
There were quite a few Bishops there, but what does that have to do with the Magisterium?
If you don't know, you don't know your "magisterium."

The Magisterium does not nor has it ever sanctioned what was in that video.
And yet they were there.
The Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Church, which is all of the Bishops and the Pope. A few Bishops does not count as the Magisterium.
if your supreme pontiff doesn't discipline them, and their brother bishops do not admonish them, qui tacit consentit.

Do you know what the Magisterium is? Your use of the word suggests that you do not.
Your suggestion that I don't only indicates your discomfiture that I do.
You only further prove in this post that you don't understand what it is.
and you only further prove in this post that a useless concept is what it is.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on December 01, 2012, 10:44:01 PM
Did you comment on the private YIM thread? I can't remember if you are in the private section.

I think anyone taking RCs to task for liturgical irregularities should at least let the Orthodox know what they think about what was discussed there.

No. I try to stay away from those threads. I already know that there are liturgical irregularities in the Orthodox Church
what do you have in mind?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Wyatt on December 01, 2012, 10:53:36 PM
doesn't matter, given the weight you give to your "magisterium," on full display in Los Angeles.
What happened in that video has nothing to do with the Magisterium.

au contraire.  Quite a few of them were there on camera.
There were quite a few Bishops there, but what does that have to do with the Magisterium?
If you don't know, you don't know your "magisterium."
I know it better than you do.

The Magisterium does not nor has it ever sanctioned what was in that video.
And yet they were there.
The Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Church, which is all of the Bishops and the Pope. A few Bishops does not count as the Magisterium.
if your supreme pontiff doesn't discipline them, and their brother bishops do not admonish them, qui tacit consentit.
Can we say with certainty that no one was disciplined or admonished after that incident? Are you an authority on what happened that day at the liturgy in that video?

Do you know what the Magisterium is? Your use of the word suggests that you do not.
Your suggestion that I don't only indicates your discomfiture that I do.
You only further prove in this post that you don't understand what it is.
and you only further prove in this post that a useless concept is what it is.
How so? All Magisterium means is the teaching authority of the Church. Eastern Orthodoxy believes that the Church has the authority to teach, does it not? The Ecumenical Councils were examples of the Magisterium of the Church teaching authoritatively.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on December 01, 2012, 11:07:15 PM
doesn't matter, given the weight you give to your "magisterium," on full display in Los Angeles.
What happened in that video has nothing to do with the Magisterium.

au contraire.  Quite a few of them were there on camera.
There were quite a few Bishops there, but what does that have to do with the Magisterium?
If you don't know, you don't know your "magisterium."
I know it better than you do.
Parroting does not constitute knowing.

The Magisterium does not nor has it ever sanctioned what was in that video.
And yet they were there.
The Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Church, which is all of the Bishops and the Pope. A few Bishops does not count as the Magisterium.
if your supreme pontiff doesn't discipline them, and their brother bishops do not admonish them, qui tacit consentit.
Can we say with certainty that no one was disciplined or admonished after that incident? Are you an authority on what happened that day at the liturgy in that video?
I believe my eyes.

Do you know what the Magisterium is? Your use of the word suggests that you do not.
Your suggestion that I don't only indicates your discomfiture that I do.
You only further prove in this post that you don't understand what it is.
and you only further prove in this post that a useless concept is what it is.
How so? All Magisterium means is the teaching authority of the Church. Eastern Orthodoxy believes that the Church has the authority to teach, does it not? The Ecumenical Councils were examples of the Magisterium of the Church teaching authoritatively.
No, they were examples of the Church teaching authoritatively.

Your "magisterium" makes grandiose claims that its behavior never matches.

I would say that if there were such a Divine Liturgy, that the Orthodox bishops would deal with it swiftly, but I feel that the Faithful would be even swifter in putting a stop to it.  Not the dumb sheep that your "magisterium" claims to shepherd.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: dzheremi on December 01, 2012, 11:12:12 PM
Did you comment on the private YIM thread? I can't remember if you are in the private section.

I think anyone taking RCs to task for liturgical irregularities should at least let the Orthodox know what they think about what was discussed there.

No. I try to stay away from those threads. I already know that there are liturgical irregularities in the Orthodox Church
what do you have in mind?

I don't want to post the link (because it greatly infuriates me, and we're in the fast time already, when I should be trying to control such things), but the heretic Vassula Ryden (one of many new age pseudo-prophets spreading private revelations) somehow managed to get into a Coptic Church a few years ago and brought a bunch of her sadly deceived followers with her for some kind of "interfaith" whatever (with Buddhist monks or something, dancing around and holding hands and all kinds of stupidity). This might not actually fall under liturgical abuse, as it wasn't during a liturgy proper, but it is the kind of thing I had in mind, in terms of what is allowed (shamefully!) to go on in our churches when people are perhaps not properly informed about what/who they're accepting. It's not really on the level of the RC mass that has been posted here (as it was not directly participated in by Coptic bishops, as far as I can tell; though HH Pope Shenouda was seated at the beginning of the clip I saw and did receive her for some kind of blessing! I wonder if he knew who she was/that she is an avowed heretic), but it is clearly highly irregular and scandalous, in a way that I'm sure many RCs can relate to. :-[

Lord have mercy on us. That's the only such thing I've seen, actually, but that's enough for one lifetime.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on December 01, 2012, 11:15:55 PM
Did you comment on the private YIM thread? I can't remember if you are in the private section.

I think anyone taking RCs to task for liturgical irregularities should at least let the Orthodox know what they think about what was discussed there.

No. I try to stay away from those threads. I already know that there are liturgical irregularities in the Orthodox Church
what do you have in mind?

I don't want to post the link (because it greatly infuriates me, and we're in the fast time already, when I should be trying to control such things), but the heretic Vassula Ryden (one of many new age pseudo-prophets spreading private revelations) somehow managed to get into a Coptic Church a few years ago and brought a bunch of her sadly deceived followers with her for some kind of "interfaith" whatever (with Buddhist monks or something, dancing around and holding hands and all kinds of stupidity). This might not actually fall under liturgical abuse, as it wasn't during a liturgy proper, but it is the kind of thing I had in mind, in terms of what is allowed (shamefully!) to go on in our churches when people are perhaps not properly informed about what/who they're accepting. It's not really on the level of the RC mass that has been posted here (as it was not directly participated in by Coptic bishops, as far as I can tell; though HH Pope Shenouda was seated at the beginning of the clip I saw and did receive her for some kind of blessing! I wonder if he knew who she was/that she is an avowed heretic), but it is clearly highly irregular and scandalous, in a way that I'm sure many RCs can relate to. :-[

Lord have mercy on us. That's the only such thing I've seen, actually, but that's enough for one lifetime.
Pope Theodore II (the EO) had to get the EP in on the act of anathematizing Vassula, to make sure in and out of Egypt she is exposed.  I don't know if HH Pope Shenouda knew of the problems with her before that.

Part of the issue was that Vassula has been communing with the Vatican for some time, and hence the Orthodox position was that she was the Vatican's problem.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: dzheremi on December 01, 2012, 11:26:38 PM
Yes, I am almost certain that the video I have seen is from well before her official anathematization (if I'm understanding her Wikipedia page correctly, that only occurred in 2011), as it was posted back in 2008. How much the COC would have been aware of her before this time is not clear. It's odd that she should be communing with the Vatican at all, seeing as how they issued official guidelines as far back as 1995 that her writings and views should not be spread in any diocese. I guess they changed their mind? (Even though that decision was declared to still be in effect in 2007.)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Wyatt on December 01, 2012, 11:53:48 PM
doesn't matter, given the weight you give to your "magisterium," on full display in Los Angeles.
What happened in that video has nothing to do with the Magisterium.

au contraire.  Quite a few of them were there on camera.
There were quite a few Bishops there, but what does that have to do with the Magisterium?
If you don't know, you don't know your "magisterium."
I know it better than you do.
Parroting does not constitute knowing.
You would do well to listen to your own words here.

The Magisterium does not nor has it ever sanctioned what was in that video.
And yet they were there.
The Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Church, which is all of the Bishops and the Pope. A few Bishops does not count as the Magisterium.
if your supreme pontiff doesn't discipline them, and their brother bishops do not admonish them, qui tacit consentit.
Can we say with certainty that no one was disciplined or admonished after that incident? Are you an authority on what happened that day at the liturgy in that video?
I believe my eyes.
We don't know what took place after that Mass was over. Disciplinary action could have been taken after the fact.

Do you know what the Magisterium is? Your use of the word suggests that you do not.
Your suggestion that I don't only indicates your discomfiture that I do.
You only further prove in this post that you don't understand what it is.
and you only further prove in this post that a useless concept is what it is.
How so? All Magisterium means is the teaching authority of the Church. Eastern Orthodoxy believes that the Church has the authority to teach, does it not? The Ecumenical Councils were examples of the Magisterium of the Church teaching authoritatively.
No, they were examples of the Church teaching authoritatively.
"Church teaching authoritatively" is the definition of Magisterium.

Your "magisterium" makes grandiose claims that its behavior never matches.
You cannot blame the Magisterium for the sins and mistakes of individual Catholics. Our Church teaches one thing, and people often fail to live up to the teaching because we are all sinners.

I would say that if there were such a Divine Liturgy, that the Orthodox bishops would deal with it swiftly, but I feel that the Faithful would be even swifter in putting a stop to it.  Not the dumb sheep that your "magisterium" claims to shepherd.
That's really insulting to call everyone in our Church "dumb sheep."
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on December 02, 2012, 12:24:02 AM
doesn't matter, given the weight you give to your "magisterium," on full display in Los Angeles.
What happened in that video has nothing to do with the Magisterium.

au contraire.  Quite a few of them were there on camera.
There were quite a few Bishops there, but what does that have to do with the Magisterium?
If you don't know, you don't know your "magisterium."
I know it better than you do.
Parroting does not constitute knowing.
You would do well to listen to your own words here.
I never take your "magisterium" at its word.  We Orthodox know better.

The Magisterium does not nor has it ever sanctioned what was in that video.
And yet they were there.
The Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Church, which is all of the Bishops and the Pope. A few Bishops does not count as the Magisterium.
if your supreme pontiff doesn't discipline them, and their brother bishops do not admonish them, qui tacit consentit.
Can we say with certainty that no one was disciplined or admonished after that incident? Are you an authority on what happened that day at the liturgy in that video?
I believe my eyes.
We don't know what took place after that Mass was over. Disciplinary action could have been taken after the fact.
Bet you it didn't.  It never does. Which, after all, is why things are the way they are.

Do you know what the Magisterium is? Your use of the word suggests that you do not.
Your suggestion that I don't only indicates your discomfiture that I do.
You only further prove in this post that you don't understand what it is.
and you only further prove in this post that a useless concept is what it is.
How so? All Magisterium means is the teaching authority of the Church. Eastern Orthodoxy believes that the Church has the authority to teach, does it not? The Ecumenical Councils were examples of the Magisterium of the Church teaching authoritatively.
No, they were examples of the Church teaching authoritatively.
"Church teaching authoritatively" is the definition of Magisterium.
No, your supreme pontiff and his acolytes, er, bishops, is how your "magisterium" defines itself.
Quote
By the Magisterium we mean the teaching office of the Church. It consists of the Pope and Bishops.
http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/chura4.htm

Your "magisterium" makes grandiose claims that its behavior never matches.
You cannot blame the Magisterium for the sins and mistakes of individual Catholics. Our Church teaches one thing, and people often fail to live up to the teaching because we are all sinners.
Fish rot from the head down.

Your "magisterium" has real responsibility issues.

I would say that if there were such a Divine Liturgy, that the Orthodox bishops would deal with it swiftly, but I feel that the Faithful would be even swifter in putting a stop to it.  Not the dumb sheep that your "magisterium" claims to shepherd.
That's really insulting to call everyone in our Church "dumb sheep."
Take it up with your "magisterium."
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: theistgal on December 02, 2012, 01:02:25 AM
I'm with you, Wyatt; that "dumb sheep" comment was baaad.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Apotheoun on December 02, 2012, 06:50:11 AM
Can we say with certainty that no one was disciplined or admonished after that incident? Are you an authority on what happened that day at the liturgy in that video?
To the best of my knowledge no one was disciplined for the monstrous liturgy depicted in the video linked by Griego.  In fact the more recent (both in 2011 and 2012) LA Religious Education Congress liturgies have continued to be celebrated in the same manner as the one shown in video (i.e., the 2010 liturgy).  Morever, in the 2011 and 2012 liturgies both Cardinal Mahony, the former Archbishop of Los Angeles, and Archbishop Gomez, the current Archbishop of Los Angeles, participated in the various liturgical celebrations.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: izrima on December 02, 2012, 04:44:22 PM
As a cradle Catholic, all I could do was laugh when I watched that video. It's too far gone. What Vatican II hath wrought. It isn't a guitar mass. It's a deacon ska dancing with the Gospel. Luckily it was only a few YouTube clicks from there to the awesome grandeur and beauty of Otto von Habsburg's requiem mass. It is moments like that Habsburg requiem that make me sad to leave the RCC, but the truth of Orthodoxy is worth it. There is, in any case, nothing to stop me from attending Catholic mass if I feel the desire.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on December 02, 2012, 04:49:06 PM
As a cradle Catholic, all I could do was laugh when I watched that video. It's too far gone. What Vatican II hath wrought. It isn't a guitar mass. It's a deacon ska dancing with the Gospel. Luckily it was only a few YouTube clicks from there to the awesome grandeur and beauty of Otto von Habsburg's requiem mass. It is moments like that Habsburg requiem that make me sad to leave the RCC, but the truth of Orthodoxy is worth it. There is, in any case, nothing to stop me from attending Catholic mass if I feel the desire.

Is there a Western Rite Orthodox parish close by?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: izrima on December 02, 2012, 04:51:53 PM
As a cradle Catholic, all I could do was laugh when I watched that video. It's too far gone. What Vatican II hath wrought. It isn't a guitar mass. It's a deacon ska dancing with the Gospel. Luckily it was only a few YouTube clicks from there to the awesome grandeur and beauty of Otto von Habsburg's requiem mass. It is moments like that Habsburg requiem that make me sad to leave the RCC, but the truth of Orthodoxy is worth it. There is, in any case, nothing to stop me from attending Catholic mass if I feel the desire.

Is there a Western Rite Orthodox parish close by?

Strangely enough, even living in a big city like Seattle, the closest Western Rite parish is 4-5 hours away across the Cascades and on the other side of the state  :P I may check one out when I am home in Cincinnati at Christmas--I gather that one has recently opened there.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Alpo on December 02, 2012, 04:57:42 PM
There is, in any case, nothing to stop me from attending Catholic mass if I feel the desire.

That's debatable. I for one would be one to say that there's a lot to stop from attending non-Orthodox mass without some specific serious reason.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: izrima on December 02, 2012, 05:00:51 PM
There is, in any case, nothing to stop me from attending Catholic mass if I feel the desire.

That's debatable. I for one would be one to say that there's a lot to stop from attending non-Orthodox mass without some specific serious reason.

I don't understand what you are saying. Are you saying I shouldn't skip the divine liturgy for a Catholic mass? I'm not talking about going every week or even every month. And I'm certainly not talking about communing in an RC church. Or are you saying I should be careful about apostasizing from the RCC? I don't get it.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Alpo on December 02, 2012, 05:08:04 PM
There is, in any case, nothing to stop me from attending Catholic mass if I feel the desire.

That's debatable. I for one would be one to say that there's a lot to stop from attending non-Orthodox mass without some specific serious reason.

I don't understand what you are saying. Are you saying I shouldn't skip the divine liturgy for a Catholic mass? I'm not talking about going every week or even every month. And I'm certainly not talking about communing in an RC church. Or are you saying I should be careful about apostasizing from the RCC? I don't get it.

I'm saying that the Orthodox should generally refrain from attending non-Orthodox services. Practical situations are up to individual and his/her priest though but that's what I believe to be the general rule.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: izrima on December 02, 2012, 09:29:20 PM
I'm saying that the Orthodox should generally refrain from attending non-Orthodox services. Practical situations are up to individual and his/her priest though but that's what I believe to be the general rule.

I've never heard that. So long as you aren't taking time away from Orthodoxy or communing somewhere you shouldn't, I don't know what the harm would be.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: LBK on December 02, 2012, 09:53:24 PM
I'm saying that the Orthodox should generally refrain from attending non-Orthodox services. Practical situations are up to individual and his/her priest though but that's what I believe to be the general rule.

I've never heard that. So long as you aren't taking time away from Orthodoxy or communing somewhere you shouldn't, I don't know what the harm would be.

izrima, Alpo is right. I've been Orthodox far longer than many on this forum have been alive, and I've yet to encounter a priest who would disagree with the advice Alpo has given.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Nephi on December 02, 2012, 10:32:09 PM
I'm saying that the Orthodox should generally refrain from attending non-Orthodox services. Practical situations are up to individual and his/her priest though but that's what I believe to be the general rule.

I've never heard that. So long as you aren't taking time away from Orthodoxy or communing somewhere you shouldn't, I don't know what the harm would be.

What LBK and Alpo both said is true.

I often wish I could also attend a local RC parish during the week as well as my EO parish on Sundays, but I realize it would 1) be unfaithful to my Church and her canons, and 2) would encourage a confused mixed-spirituality and ecumenism in myself.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Alpo on December 03, 2012, 03:30:31 AM
Even more, I think our policy on this is what the whole Christendom used to have something like hundred years ago. Rome escpecially used to be fairly conservative on this.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: dzheremi on December 03, 2012, 04:14:34 AM
I know the Coptic Orthodox still have this policy. No RC masses or Protestant gatherings for us. Of course that's how it should be, and the reality on the ground is often different, but just the same there are many who are serious about following it (and those that aren't generally don't know their faith well enough to realize that it is wrong and not encouraged). I was even told before I got baptized that I should not visit the local OCA church back home, even though plenty of OO attend there (there's no OO church in the area) and I've been there plenty of times in the past.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: username! on December 03, 2012, 11:47:12 PM
I'm saying that the Orthodox should generally refrain from attending non-Orthodox services. Practical situations are up to individual and his/her priest though but that's what I believe to be the general rule.

I've never heard that. So long as you aren't taking time away from Orthodoxy or communing somewhere you shouldn't, I don't know what the harm would be.

What LBK and Alpo both said is true.

I often wish I could also attend a local RC parish during the week as well as my EO parish on Sundays, but I realize it would 1) be unfaithful to my Church and her canons, and 2) would encourage a confused mixed-spirituality and ecumenism in myself.

Just move to an area where the Carpatho -russian Orthodox diocese has a parish that does daily liturgy and you won't have that problem.  Yes some do have daily liturgy and I wish I lived closer to one that does and I'd go a few times a week.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Nephi on December 04, 2012, 12:33:45 AM
Just move to an area where the Carpatho -russian Orthodox diocese has a parish that does daily liturgy and you won't have that problem.  Yes some do have daily liturgy and I wish I lived closer to one that does and I'd go a few times a week.
That would be pretty nice, but my particular issue is distance. I can only make it to my parish once a week whereas there are several RC parishes where I live.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: theistgal on December 04, 2012, 12:34:57 AM
Just move to an area where the Carpatho -russian Orthodox diocese has a parish that does daily liturgy and you won't have that problem.  Yes some do have daily liturgy and I wish I lived closer to one that does and I'd go a few times a week.

My husband and I visited the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Cathedral in Johnstown, PA (http://www.acrod.org/organizations/cathedral/divineservices (http://www.acrod.org/organizations/cathedral/divineservices)) this past October.

What a beautiful church! No daily liturgies, unfortunately, except on feast days.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Shiny on December 04, 2012, 12:40:45 AM
Daily liturgies with the Eucharist you say? I've been dying for a parish that does it. I had no idea the Orthodox Church does such a thing.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: mike on December 04, 2012, 01:11:08 AM
Daily liturgies with the Eucharist you say?

Liturgies without Eucharist???

Why does everyone insist on daily Liturgies. Priests would like to have sex too.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Shiny on December 04, 2012, 01:13:31 AM
Why does everyone insist on daily Liturgies. Priests would like to have sex too.

 ;D
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on December 04, 2012, 01:33:32 AM
Daily liturgies with the Eucharist you say?

Liturgies without Eucharist???

Why does everyone insist on daily Liturgies. Priests would like to have sex too.
That's why the only place I've seen daily DL are monasteries.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: LBK on December 04, 2012, 01:35:45 AM
Daily liturgies with the Eucharist you say?

Liturgies without Eucharist???

Why does everyone insist on daily Liturgies. Priests would like to have sex too.
That's why the only place I've seen daily DL are monasteries.

They can also be held in parish churches where more than one priest is assigned. Not common in non-Orthodox countries, but certainly possible.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: choy on December 04, 2012, 02:30:57 AM
Isn't daily DLs encouraged in Cathedral parishes?  I know at my UGCC parish (which is the Cathedral) we faithfully adhere to that tradition (except Mondays, we give the priest a break, unless it is a Feast Day or Bright Monday). But even though it is just the nuns and one or two other faithful attendee, there is usually Divine Liturgy Tuesdays-Saturdays.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: mike on December 04, 2012, 02:39:10 AM
I'd say it's an innovation, not a tradition.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Delphine on December 04, 2012, 03:32:29 PM
I'd say it's an innovation, not a tradition.

I've heard before that there are many churches in Russia and Greece that hold a daily Divine Liturgy. But that's second hand information, and I guess it could still be an innovation.

Even if it is innovated, though, what's wrong with innovated traditions and pious customs that help to root you in the faith? It's not innovated theology.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: J Michael on December 04, 2012, 04:34:27 PM
I'd say it's an innovation, not a tradition.

I've heard before that there are many churches in Russia and Greece that hold a daily Divine Liturgy. But that's second hand information, and I guess it could still be an innovation.

Even if it is innovated, though, what's wrong with innovated traditions and pious customs that help to root you in the faith? It's not innovated theology.

Good point.

I remember an Orthodox priest telling me that as long as there are 2 or more people present, there's no reason *not* to celebrate a DL every day if the priest is willing and able to do so, that there's nothing to forbid it.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: mike on December 04, 2012, 05:16:29 PM
I remember an Orthodox priest telling me that as long as there are 2 or more people present, there's no reason *not* to celebrate a DL every day if the priest is willing and able to do so, that there's nothing to forbid it.

Great Lent?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: J Michael on December 04, 2012, 05:26:44 PM
I remember an Orthodox priest telling me that as long as there are 2 or more people present, there's no reason *not* to celebrate a DL every day if the priest is willing and able to do so, that there's nothing to forbid it.

Great Lent?
Yes, that would be an exception.  And the reason for the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts.  Let us know if you can think of other exceptions.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on December 04, 2012, 05:57:57 PM
I remember an Orthodox priest telling me that as long as there are 2 or more people present, there's no reason *not* to celebrate a DL every day if the priest is willing and able to do so, that there's nothing to forbid it.

Great Lent?
Yes, that would be an exception.  And the reason for the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts.  Let us know if you can think of other exceptions.
Btw, the Coptic Orthodox do not have that restriction, and IIRC have DL every day during Lent.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Shiny on December 05, 2012, 01:21:28 AM
Prof, you are ESL? What's your native tongue?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Peter J on December 05, 2012, 11:56:12 AM
I'm saying that the Orthodox should generally refrain from attending non-Orthodox services. Practical situations are up to individual and his/her priest though but that's what I believe to be the general rule.

I've never heard that. So long as you aren't taking time away from Orthodoxy or communing somewhere you shouldn't, I don't know what the harm would be.

FWIW, I've been on this forum for 6 years now and I'm still not convinced. (Not that that's the only reason I don't become Orthodox.)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Peter J on December 05, 2012, 11:57:13 AM
Your "magisterium" makes grandiose claims that its behavior never matches.
You cannot blame the Magisterium for the sins and mistakes of individual Catholics. Our Church teaches one thing, and people often fail to live up to the teaching because we are all sinners.

Hmmm ... sounds a lot like the early church to me. :)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: J Michael on December 05, 2012, 12:30:47 PM
I remember an Orthodox priest telling me that as long as there are 2 or more people present, there's no reason *not* to celebrate a DL every day if the priest is willing and able to do so, that there's nothing to forbid it.

Great Lent?
Yes, that would be an exception.  And the reason for the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts.  Let us know if you can think of other exceptions.
Btw, the Coptic Orthodox do not have that restriction, and IIRC have DL every day during Lent.

Interesting!  I had no idea.  Thanks for that info.  Would I be correct, then, in thinking that if that is the case there's no particular theological or canonical restriction, rather that it is a matter of praxis?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Papist on December 05, 2012, 12:40:50 PM
Your "magisterium" makes grandiose claims that its behavior never matches.
You cannot blame the Magisterium for the sins and mistakes of individual Catholics. Our Church teaches one thing, and people often fail to live up to the teaching because we are all sinners.

Hmmm ... sounds a lot like the early church to me. :)
A hospital for sinners.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: ialmisry on December 06, 2012, 02:43:25 PM
I remember an Orthodox priest telling me that as long as there are 2 or more people present, there's no reason *not* to celebrate a DL every day if the priest is willing and able to do so, that there's nothing to forbid it.

Great Lent?
Yes, that would be an exception.  And the reason for the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts.  Let us know if you can think of other exceptions.
Btw, the Coptic Orthodox do not have that restriction, and IIRC have DL every day during Lent.

Interesting!  I had no idea.  Thanks for that info.  Would I be correct, then, in thinking that if that is the case there's no particular theological or canonical restriction, rather that it is a matter of praxis?
No, there's a canon against it from the Council of Trullo.  But since the Copts weren't there, it doesn't affect them.  I wonder if it affected EO Alexandria, when we still had the Alexandrian rite in common use.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: J Michael on December 06, 2012, 02:57:06 PM
I remember an Orthodox priest telling me that as long as there are 2 or more people present, there's no reason *not* to celebrate a DL every day if the priest is willing and able to do so, that there's nothing to forbid it.

Great Lent?
Yes, that would be an exception.  And the reason for the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts.  Let us know if you can think of other exceptions.
Btw, the Coptic Orthodox do not have that restriction, and IIRC have DL every day during Lent.

Interesting!  I had no idea.  Thanks for that info.  Would I be correct, then, in thinking that if that is the case there's no particular theological or canonical restriction, rather that it is a matter of praxis?
No, there's a canon against it from the Council of Trullo.  But since the Copts weren't there, it doesn't affect them.  I wonder if it affected EO Alexandria, when we still had the Alexandrian rite in common use.

Do you happen to know which canon?  I looked here http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/trullo.asp but couldn't find it.  I probably just overlooked it.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Jetavan on February 07, 2013, 03:19:05 PM
The RCC isn't too attractive to these guys:

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-DU-fq4BR3SM/URA0rgXUfvI/AAAAAAACQA8/ewKiZNUp9_c/s1600/apostropheabuse.jpg)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: choy on February 07, 2013, 03:21:12 PM
The RCC isn't too attractive to these guys:

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-DU-fq4BR3SM/URA0rgXUfvI/AAAAAAACQA8/ewKiZNUp9_c/s1600/apostropheabuse.jpg)

They should also include "Spelling in English" or "Proper use of apostrophe"
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: J Michael on February 07, 2013, 03:50:06 PM
The RCC isn't too attractive to these guys:

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-DU-fq4BR3SM/URA0rgXUfvI/AAAAAAACQA8/ewKiZNUp9_c/s1600/apostropheabuse.jpg)

They should also include "Spelling in English" or "Proper use of apostrophe"

And Gramm;ar Nazi's  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Jetavan on February 07, 2013, 03:58:32 PM
The RCC isn't too attractive to these guys:
....

They should also include "Spelling in English" or "Proper use of apostrophe"

And Gramm;ar Nazi's  ;D ;D ;D
Funny. I didn't see Nazis listed. :o
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: J Michael on February 07, 2013, 04:00:34 PM
The RCC isn't too attractive to these guys:
....

They should also include "Spelling in English" or "Proper use of apostrophe"

And Gramm;ar Nazi's  ;D ;D ;D
Funny. I didn't see Nazis listed. :o

Not specifically, no.  But there appear to be a few synonyms.  Saying any more might bump this into "Politics", so I won't  ;).
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Justin Kolodziej on February 07, 2013, 04:08:11 PM
The RCC isn't too attractive to these guys:

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-DU-fq4BR3SM/URA0rgXUfvI/AAAAAAACQA8/ewKiZNUp9_c/s1600/apostropheabuse.jpg)
dang, I heart the devil  :-[

Good news to you though, Orthodox didn't make the list!  ;D
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on February 07, 2013, 04:09:37 PM
The RCC isn't too attractive to these guys:

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-DU-fq4BR3SM/URA0rgXUfvI/AAAAAAACQA8/ewKiZNUp9_c/s1600/apostropheabuse.jpg)

Fintastic! [/thread]

LOL @ Druggies. Good for them for not following a foolish consistency.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Nephi on February 07, 2013, 04:15:23 PM
What's a "P.K'S?"
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on February 07, 2013, 04:17:58 PM
What's a "P.K'S?"

Preacher's (Priest's) Kids
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on February 07, 2013, 04:19:58 PM
What's a "P.K'S?"

Preacher's (Priest's) Kids

Or these folks are some serious online gamerz from the old dayz:

Player Killers
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on February 07, 2013, 04:21:14 PM
What's a "P.K'S?"

Preacher's (Priest's) Kids

Or these folks are some serious online gamerz from the old dayz:

Player Killers

Or they ain't down with one of the gifts of the Spirit:

Psychokinesis

I'll stop.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: mike on February 07, 2013, 04:22:35 PM
What's a "P.K'S?"

Preacher's (Priest's) Kids

Or these folks are some serious online gamerz from the old dayz:

Player Killers

Car Communication Enterprise

(http://www.lubus.info/galeria/albums/fotki/pks-LUK970R.jpg)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on February 07, 2013, 04:28:21 PM
What's a "P.K'S?"

Preacher's (Priest's) Kids

Or these folks are some serious online gamerz from the old dayz:

Player Killers

Car Communication Enterprise

(http://www.lubus.info/galeria/albums/fotki/pks-LUK970R.jpg)

Whatever it means, let's just say these are some thorough hell fire types rather than the one note wonders like Phelps et al.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: JamesR on February 07, 2013, 04:36:27 PM
Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?


And how do RCC Christians view Her corrupted history?

It's big and attractive because it's very ecumenical and so many of her members are lapsed and/or attend different Churches, yet still consider themselves "Catholic" in religious censuses even though they don't really practice. This is especially true for Hispanics.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: username! on February 07, 2013, 05:04:41 PM
One word "bingo"
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Nephi on February 07, 2013, 05:05:35 PM

Or these folks are some serious online gamerz from the old dayz:

Player Killers
Oh yes, I remember those, and PKK's. Player killer killers.

But player killers do heart the devil.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Maria on February 07, 2013, 05:08:13 PM
One word "bingo"

That, plus Roman Catholic worship service is a combination of Protestant sounds (guitar and other instruments), Evangelical zeal (sermons ad libbed), liturgical dance, and other aberrations that suit modernist man.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: choy on February 07, 2013, 05:29:46 PM
And Gramm;ar Nazi's  ;D ;D ;D

Okay, pointing out that "SPORT'S NUT'S" is wrong isn't being a grammar nazi, it is an act of mercy on humanity  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: J Michael on February 07, 2013, 05:56:30 PM
And Gramm;ar Nazi's  ;D ;D ;D

Okay, pointing out that "SPORT'S NUT'S" is wrong isn't being a grammar nazi, it is an act of mercy on humanity  ;D ;D ;D

Good point, but only in English, though  ;D ;D.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Shiny on February 07, 2013, 06:06:40 PM
suit modernist man.
Brilliant.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: William on February 08, 2013, 06:27:06 AM
Even more, I think our policy on this is what the whole Christendom used to have something like hundred years ago. Rome escpecially used to be fairly conservative on this.

My Catholic world religions teacher said his father told him to never go into a Protestant church.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on February 08, 2013, 09:49:29 AM
One word "bingo"

That, plus Roman Catholic worship service is a combination of Protestant sounds (guitar and other instruments), Evangelical zeal (sermons ad libbed), liturgical dance, and other aberrations that suit modernist man.

This doesn't attract anyone to a religion.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Peter J on February 08, 2013, 05:45:09 PM
Okay, pointing out that "SPORT'S NUT'S" is wrong isn't being a grammar nazi, it is an act of mercy on humanity  ;D ;D ;D

Well, I think it should be "SPORT'S NUTS", but I'm not sure what they have against people with that nickname who like to snack.  :(
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: choy on February 08, 2013, 06:01:25 PM
One word "bingo"

That, plus Roman Catholic worship service is a combination of Protestant sounds (guitar and other instruments), Evangelical zeal (sermons ad libbed), liturgical dance, and other aberrations that suit modernist man.

This doesn't attract anyone to a religion.

Sadly, it does.  I have a friend who started attending an Evangelical church and she said she like how they integrated technology into the service.  Like the Pastor can ask people a question and you can text (or tweet, I forgot which) your response which they can display top responses or something later on the big screen.

I don't think I'll be talking about Orthodoxy with her anytime soon.  Or I can say we also have a big (icon) screen  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: orthonorm on February 08, 2013, 08:39:39 PM
One word "bingo"

That, plus Roman Catholic worship service is a combination of Protestant sounds (guitar and other instruments), Evangelical zeal (sermons ad libbed), liturgical dance, and other aberrations that suit modernist man.

A befitting modernist critique.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: biro on February 08, 2013, 08:44:53 PM
Well, bingo is fun.  :)

Also, Italian food is really good.  :D
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: choy on February 08, 2013, 09:11:10 PM
Well, bingo is fun.  :)

Also, Italian food is really good.  :D

I've never been to a Roman Catholic Church that served Italian food.  Well, pasta yes, but not authentic Italian style pasta.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: biro on February 08, 2013, 09:12:55 PM
Well, bingo is fun.  :)

Also, Italian food is really good.  :D

I've never been to a Roman Catholic Church that served Italian food.  Well, pasta yes, but not authentic Italian style pasta.

Sorry to hear that. Try San Gennaro's Day or St. Joseph's Day.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: choy on February 08, 2013, 09:15:43 PM
Sorry to hear that. Try San Gennaro's Day or St. Joseph's Day.

I guess its because we don't have a lot of Italians here on the West Coast.  RC parishes here are mostly Filipinos.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: dzheremi on February 08, 2013, 09:19:03 PM
Where I lived in California the RC was mostly Latinos. The best thing is I moved to a place also full of Latinos, so I get to be Orthodox without giving up my tamales, taquitos, mole, etc. It's a win-win! :)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: choy on February 08, 2013, 09:24:48 PM
Where I lived in California the RC was mostly Latinos. The best thing is I moved to a place also full of Latinos, so I get to be Orthodox without giving up my tamales, taquitos, mole, etc. It's a win-win! :)

One of the things I compain about here in Vancouver is the lack of non-fastfood Mexican restaurants.  Yet when I cross the border into Washington State, there is an abundance of them.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: biro on February 08, 2013, 09:30:53 PM
Many Orthodox cultures have good food, too.

Could this be a way to reconciliation?...

Instead of a big council with lots of arguments, once Lent is over let's just eat together. And then phone the bishops. They can write a treaty, and this whole thing will be wrapped up before you can say 'baseball season.' And taa-daa! Problem solved. You're welcome.  ;D
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: JamesR on February 08, 2013, 09:32:57 PM
Orthodox countries and good food? HA! I've NEVER tasted anything good from an Orthodox country; it always seems so vegetarian or just plain odd and foreign to me, whereas Rome's western food is more appealing to me. Then again, it's a matter of perspective.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Asteriktos on February 08, 2013, 09:36:46 PM
^
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQLhaNjhekycllmg8jh-0PEsI7G0CoUToIrr2RtCKiJ9Wk0JsesAQ)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: biro on February 08, 2013, 09:39:27 PM
Orthodox countries and good food? HA! I've NEVER tasted anything good from an Orthodox country; it always seems so vegetarian or just plain odd and foreign to me, whereas Rome's western food is more appealing to me. Then again, it's a matter of perspective.

Well, to each his own.  :)

I've had some tasty dishes at Orthodox places. When I was little, we used to go to some of their churches when it was parish festival time. Mmmmm good! :) Well, just my opinion.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: choy on February 08, 2013, 09:52:39 PM
Orthodox countries and good food? HA! I've NEVER tasted anything good from an Orthodox country; it always seems so vegetarian or just plain odd and foreign to me, whereas Rome's western food is more appealing to me. Then again, it's a matter of perspective.

Given that they only fast/abstain for so many days a year, they have more meat throughout the year.

I did approach an Indian coworker of mine about Indian vegetarian dishes which I will plan to have for Great Lent.  Indian vegetarian dishes are awesome, just because they use a lot of different spices it just is so flavorful.  Last year I did a lot of tofu curry.  This year I want to expand the menu because I was sick and tired of tofu last year by the Feast of the Annunciation.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: biro on February 08, 2013, 09:58:30 PM
True! I like Indian food, and the fact they have lots of soups and curries and veggie things makes it easier to take care of the Lent requirements. Just have to watch I skip the cheese cubes and go for potatoes. :)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Shiny on February 08, 2013, 10:14:22 PM
Orthodox countries and good food? HA! I've NEVER tasted anything good from an Orthodox country; it always seems so vegetarian or just plain odd and foreign to me, whereas Rome's western food is more appealing to me. Then again, it's a matter of perspective.
Never had any of that food in a Greek parish?

Best green bean dish I have ever had in my life. And I hate green beans, but it tasted delicious.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: mike on February 08, 2013, 10:37:21 PM
Orthodox countries and good food? HA! I've NEVER tasted anything good from an Orthodox country; it always seems so vegetarian or just plain odd and foreign to me, whereas Rome's western food is more appealing to me. Then again, it's a matter of perspective.

Indeed. Salo is vegetarian. No meat in there.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: username! on February 08, 2013, 10:40:28 PM
Orthodox countries and good food? HA! I've NEVER tasted anything good from an Orthodox country; it always seems so vegetarian or just plain odd and foreign to me, whereas Rome's western food is more appealing to me. Then again, it's a matter of perspective.

Indeed. Salo is vegetarian. No meat in there.

How is Salo vegetarian?  It is cured pig fat Mike!  :P  I have about 20kg of it that has been curing for four months almost.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: mike on February 08, 2013, 10:52:49 PM
Orthodox countries and good food? HA! I've NEVER tasted anything good from an Orthodox country; it always seems so vegetarian or just plain odd and foreign to me, whereas Rome's western food is more appealing to me. Then again, it's a matter of perspective.

Indeed. Salo is vegetarian. No meat in there.

How is Salo vegetarian?  It is cured pig fat Mike!  :P  I have about 20kg of it that has been curing for four months almost.

Fat, not meat. No single protein in there.

At least how I'm trying to explain to myself JamesR's argumentation. Otherwise it has no sense.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Kerdy on February 08, 2013, 10:57:28 PM
Orthodox countries and good food? HA! I've NEVER tasted anything good from an Orthodox country; it always seems so vegetarian or just plain odd and foreign to me, whereas Rome's western food is more appealing to me. Then again, it's a matter of perspective.

Indeed. Salo is vegetarian. No meat in there.

How is Salo vegetarian?  It is cured pig fat Mike!  :P  I have about 20kg of it that has been curing for four months almost.

Fat, not meat. No single protein in there.

At least how I'm trying to explain to myself JamesR's argumentation. Otherwise it has no sense.

It's flesh from an animal, not vegetarian.  Like pork rinds.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: mike on February 08, 2013, 11:13:34 PM
Orthodox countries and good food? HA! I've NEVER tasted anything good from an Orthodox country; it always seems so vegetarian or just plain odd and foreign to me, whereas Rome's western food is more appealing to me. Then again, it's a matter of perspective.

Indeed. Salo is vegetarian. No meat in there.

How is Salo vegetarian?  It is cured pig fat Mike!  :P  I have about 20kg of it that has been curing for four months almost.

Fat, not meat. No single protein in there.

At least how I'm trying to explain to myself JamesR's argumentation. Otherwise it has no sense.

It's flesh from an animal, not vegetarian.  Like pork rinds.

The forum needs some [joke ] or [irony ] tags.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: JamesR on February 09, 2013, 12:05:24 AM
I'm a spoiled American; I need pure, red, four-legged meat served right in front of me with A1 sauce. Not a little bit of meat or fish/lamb buried under or mixed with like twenty Orthodox vegetables from the old country, but plain meat.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Asteriktos on February 09, 2013, 12:06:48 AM
I'm a spoiled American; I need pure, red, four-legged meat served right in front of me with A1 sauce. Not a little bit of meat or fish/lamb buried under or mixed with like twenty Orthodox vegetables from the old country, but plain meat.

If you don't like Chicken Kiev then... then... . .  you are beyond all hope!
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: JamesR on February 09, 2013, 12:07:28 AM
:( I have no choice but to join the Romans....
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: dzheremi on February 09, 2013, 12:11:56 AM
I am American, A1 sauce is gross, and Chicken Kiev is delicious.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: mike on February 09, 2013, 12:14:47 AM
and Chicken Kiev is delicious.

If you eat it seldom. To delicate for me for daily use.

I didn't know it is called that way.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Jetavan on February 09, 2013, 12:41:50 AM
:( I have no choice but to join the Romans....
The Constantinopolitans?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Asteriktos on February 09, 2013, 01:16:29 AM
Perhaps he meant the evil latin Franks  :o
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Maria on February 09, 2013, 01:38:23 AM
I'm a spoiled American; I need pure, red, four-legged meat served right in front of me with A1 sauce. Not a little bit of meat or fish/lamb buried under or mixed with like twenty Orthodox vegetables from the old country, but plain meat.

If you don't like Chicken Kiev then... then... . .  you are beyond all hope!

What is Chicken Kiev? Is it something like "chicken of the sea?" Which is really tuna.

Edited to add: Hey, I have heard that rattlesnake meat tastes a lot like chicken. However, rattlesnake meat is real meat as it comes from a vertebrate.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Maria on February 09, 2013, 01:40:09 AM
Oh, the RCC is not so interesting when their "Ash Wednesday" and Lent starts next week (five days from now).

We have five more weeks until Great Lent.  :angel:
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: JamesR on February 09, 2013, 02:11:00 AM
Aww five weeks? That's so long... :( I want it to come sooner. I can't wait for Pascha; this is going to be the year where I try to drag my family with me to Church and maybe the beauty of Pascha will convert them.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: dzheremi on February 09, 2013, 02:12:13 AM
Hahaha. You'd think that, Maria, until you remember that the RCC doesn't really fast. But I have noticed a huge increase in the number of commercials for fast food fish sandwiches lately...ahhh, the joys of living in New Mexico. Enjoy your filet-o-fish sandwiches, Wyatt! ;)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Asteriktos on February 09, 2013, 02:23:34 AM
I'm a spoiled American; I need pure, red, four-legged meat served right in front of me with A1 sauce. Not a little bit of meat or fish/lamb buried under or mixed with like twenty Orthodox vegetables from the old country, but plain meat.

If you don't like Chicken Kiev then... then... . .  you are beyond all hope!

What is Chicken Kiev? Is it something like "chicken of the sea?" Which is really tuna.

Edited to add: Hey, I have heard that rattlesnake meat tastes a lot like chicken. However, rattlesnake meat is real meat as it comes from a vertebrate.

Wiki has the answer! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_Kiev) :)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Shiny on February 09, 2013, 02:33:08 AM
I'm a spoiled American; I need pure, red, four-legged meat served right in front of me with A1 sauce. Not a little bit of meat or fish/lamb buried under or mixed with like twenty Orthodox vegetables from the old country, but plain meat.

If you don't like Chicken Kiev then... then... . .  you are beyond all hope!

What is Chicken Kiev? Is it something like "chicken of the sea?" Which is really tuna.

Edited to add: Hey, I have heard that rattlesnake meat tastes a lot like chicken. However, rattlesnake meat is real meat as it comes from a vertebrate.

Wiki has the answer! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_Kiev) :)

MMMMMMMMMMMMMM
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Father H on February 09, 2013, 02:44:41 AM
I'm a spoiled American; I need pure, red, four-legged meat served right in front of me with A1 sauce. Not a little bit of meat or fish/lamb buried under or mixed with like twenty Orthodox vegetables from the old country, but plain meat.

ummm...  A1 sauce is for meat that was not cooked so well.  But I agree on the minimal meat with veggies and all that on a non-fast day.  If I want fish I want grouper and veggies to the side if I have room.  Virtually everything is good with noodles though. 
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Father H on February 09, 2013, 02:45:30 AM
I'm a spoiled American; I need pure, red, four-legged meat served right in front of me with A1 sauce. Not a little bit of meat or fish/lamb buried under or mixed with like twenty Orthodox vegetables from the old country, but plain meat.

If you don't like Chicken Kiev then... then... . .  you are beyond all hope!

What is Chicken Kiev? Is it something like "chicken of the sea?" Which is really tuna.

Edited to add: Hey, I have heard that rattlesnake meat tastes a lot like chicken. However, rattlesnake meat is real meat as it comes from a vertebrate.

I believe that is Chicken Kyiv.   ;)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: LBK on February 09, 2013, 03:32:54 AM
I'm a spoiled American; I need pure, red, four-legged meat served right in front of me with A1 sauce. Not a little bit of meat or fish/lamb buried under or mixed with like twenty Orthodox vegetables from the old country, but plain meat.

You've obviously never been to a Russian (especially Harbintsy Russian) or Greek barbecue. I also hear the Georgians know a thing or two about carnivorous cooking.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Charles Martel on February 09, 2013, 08:11:20 AM
Perhaps he meant the evil latin Franks  :o
Evil? Lol! I might have to use that line in my signature.

Charles Martel........"Evil Latin Frank".

Oh and that's Latin with a capital "L". ;)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Charles Martel on February 09, 2013, 08:14:39 AM
The RCC isn't too attractive to these guys:

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-DU-fq4BR3SM/URA0rgXUfvI/AAAAAAACQA8/ewKiZNUp9_c/s1600/apostropheabuse.jpg)

They should also include "Spelling in English" or "Proper use of apostrophe"
Maybe, but they're spot-on with Loud Mouth Women. ;D
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Cyrillic on February 09, 2013, 08:47:44 AM
Orthodox countries and good food? HA! I've NEVER tasted anything good from an Orthodox country; it always seems so vegetarian or just plain odd and foreign to me, whereas Rome's western food is more appealing to me. Then again, it's a matter of perspective.

(http://delicious-cooks.com/data_images/recipes_01/gyros/gyros-05.jpg)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Nephi on February 09, 2013, 11:01:58 AM
Hahaha. You'd think that, Maria, until you remember that the RCC doesn't really fast.
I have a RCC calendar that describes fasting rules for Lent, and it gives the normal Western fasting method (1 normal-sized meal, and 2 small meals).

I wonder how many Catholics do this.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: biro on February 09, 2013, 11:12:54 AM
Hahaha. You'd think that, Maria, until you remember that the RCC doesn't really fast.
I have a RCC calendar that describes fasting rules for Lent, and it gives the normal Western fasting method (1 normal-sized meal, and 2 small meals).

I wonder how many Catholics do this.

I used to try to do it. When I was young, Mom took care of that for me, with fish sticks and spaghetti over and over again. :)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Peter J on February 09, 2013, 12:30:47 PM
I'm a spoiled American; I need pure, red, four-legged meat served right in front of me with A1 sauce. Not a little bit of meat or fish/lamb buried under or mixed with like twenty Orthodox vegetables from the old country, but plain meat.

ummm...  A1 sauce is for meat that was not cooked so well.  But I agree on the minimal meat with veggies and all that on a non-fast day.  If I want fish I want grouper and veggies to the side if I have room.  Virtually everything is good with noodles though. 

Grouper? Do you live in Florida or something?

Anyhow, I've never been I big fan of A1, but Chello's steak sauce is great (if they still make it -- it has been a long time since I had it).
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Peter J on February 09, 2013, 12:32:45 PM
Hahaha. You'd think that, Maria, until you remember that the RCC doesn't really fast.
I have a RCC calendar that describes fasting rules for Lent, and it gives the normal Western fasting method (1 normal-sized meal, and 2 small meals).

I wonder how many Catholics do this.

And even that's only necessary for Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Peter J on February 09, 2013, 12:33:29 PM
:( I have no choice but to join the Romans....

How do you feel about Ukrainian food?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: choy on February 09, 2013, 12:44:37 PM
The RCC isn't too attractive to these guys:

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-DU-fq4BR3SM/URA0rgXUfvI/AAAAAAACQA8/ewKiZNUp9_c/s1600/apostropheabuse.jpg)

They should also include "Spelling in English" or "Proper use of apostrophe"
Maybe, but they're spot-on with Loud Mouth Women. ;D

But if you get rid of the loud mouth women, then you will have loud mouthed men.  We shut up because the women are talking  ;D
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: choy on February 09, 2013, 12:46:23 PM
Hahaha. You'd think that, Maria, until you remember that the RCC doesn't really fast. But I have noticed a huge increase in the number of commercials for fast food fish sandwiches lately...ahhh, the joys of living in New Mexico. Enjoy your filet-o-fish sandwiches, Wyatt! ;)

What I miss in the Philippines. Almost everywhere the restaurants and fast food places come out with their Lenten menu.  Of course being RC, it usually means fish meals.  But Orthodox can eat squid, right?  I miss grilled squid.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: choy on February 09, 2013, 12:47:37 PM
Hahaha. You'd think that, Maria, until you remember that the RCC doesn't really fast.
I have a RCC calendar that describes fasting rules for Lent, and it gives the normal Western fasting method (1 normal-sized meal, and 2 small meals).

I wonder how many Catholics do this.

Good devout RCs would.  But as dzheremi pointed out, it really isn't much.  It is only required for 2 days a year.  Then the "abstinence" on Fridays.

But if you think about it, we Orthodox can eat as much rice as we want during Lent :D
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Peter J on February 09, 2013, 01:23:35 PM
The RCC isn't too attractive to these guys:

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-DU-fq4BR3SM/URA0rgXUfvI/AAAAAAACQA8/ewKiZNUp9_c/s1600/apostropheabuse.jpg)

BTW, I didn't notice at first but that file is called apostropheabuse.jpg. So I guess a lot of our comments are a bit "on the nose".  :-[

Btw, I have to wonder if the people who made that banner really mean it, or if they're really some [liberals] just making fun of fundamentalists. (Which really isn't much of sport b/c it's so easy.  ;))
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: mike on February 09, 2013, 01:31:45 PM
:( I have no choice but to join the Romans....

How do you feel about Ukrainian food?

Had a few slices of salo today, accompanied by a few pieces of raw semi-dried sausage...
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: William on February 09, 2013, 06:41:57 PM
Many Orthodox cultures have good food, too.

Mmmmmmm pierogies.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Shiny on February 09, 2013, 06:43:23 PM
Many Orthodox cultures have good food, too.

Mmmmmmm pierogies.
The great pierogie race...
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Asteriktos on February 09, 2013, 09:08:00 PM
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcReISZZx_8It-R64bl8yBn3OkecBmyPIOnaPDy_lXphHM9jWfCn)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: username! on February 10, 2013, 11:03:29 PM
Orthodox countries and good food? HA! I've NEVER tasted anything good from an Orthodox country; it always seems so vegetarian or just plain odd and foreign to me, whereas Rome's western food is more appealing to me. Then again, it's a matter of perspective.

Indeed. Salo is vegetarian. No meat in there.

How is Salo vegetarian?  It is cured pig fat Mike!  :P  I have about 20kg of it that has been curing for four months almost.

Fat, not meat. No single protein in there.

At least how I'm trying to explain to myself JamesR's argumentation. Otherwise it has no sense.

my salo has some red meat in it.  Ok but to picky Americans who can afford to pass up food if it is from an animal period then it isn't vegetarian.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: username! on February 10, 2013, 11:06:32 PM
Orthodox countries and good food? HA! I've NEVER tasted anything good from an Orthodox country; it always seems so vegetarian or just plain odd and foreign to me, whereas Rome's western food is more appealing to me. Then again, it's a matter of perspective.

Indeed. Salo is vegetarian. No meat in there.

How is Salo vegetarian?  It is cured pig fat Mike!  :P  I have about 20kg of it that has been curing for four months almost.

Fat, not meat. No single protein in there.

At least how I'm trying to explain to myself JamesR's argumentation. Otherwise it has no sense.

It's flesh from an animal, not vegetarian.  Like pork rinds.

Fat isn't a flesh.  I take mike's side it isn't meat it's salo, it's own unique thing.  It's not pork rinds either.  It's cured back fat or belly fat.  Or smoked cured ribs.  I currently used really thick fat from a homegrown pig.  most pigs in the USA don't grow large enough to have thick back fat.  But this pig did.  We are talking 4-5 inches thick in some spots. 
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Kerdy on February 11, 2013, 06:11:58 AM
Orthodox countries and good food? HA! I've NEVER tasted anything good from an Orthodox country; it always seems so vegetarian or just plain odd and foreign to me, whereas Rome's western food is more appealing to me. Then again, it's a matter of perspective.

Indeed. Salo is vegetarian. No meat in there.

How is Salo vegetarian?  It is cured pig fat Mike!  :P  I have about 20kg of it that has been curing for four months almost.

Fat, not meat. No single protein in there.

At least how I'm trying to explain to myself JamesR's argumentation. Otherwise it has no sense.

It's flesh from an animal, not vegetarian.  Like pork rinds.

Fat isn't a flesh.  I take mike's side it isn't meat it's salo, it's own unique thing.  It's not pork rinds either.  It's cured back fat or belly fat.  Or smoked cured ribs.  I currently used really thick fat from a homegrown pig.  most pigs in the USA don't grow large enough to have thick back fat.  But this pig did.  We are talking 4-5 inches thick in some spots.  
 ...in any event, it isn't vegetarian.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: brastaseptim on February 14, 2013, 07:34:47 PM
Hmm... strange. The local Latin priest here gave a rousing Ash Wednesday homily on Eastern fasting rules, and why Latins should adopt them. Being Ruthenian Catholic, I just smiled when everybody immediate smiled bright when he read the gospel passage about "And when you fast, do not look dismal, like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by men." I knew the Italian Catholics' faces would be dismal when he mentioned the ban on dairy products- including cheese.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: choy on February 14, 2013, 07:40:22 PM
Orthodox countries and good food? HA! I've NEVER tasted anything good from an Orthodox country; it always seems so vegetarian or just plain odd and foreign to me, whereas Rome's western food is more appealing to me. Then again, it's a matter of perspective.

Indeed. Salo is vegetarian. No meat in there.

How is Salo vegetarian?  It is cured pig fat Mike!  :P  I have about 20kg of it that has been curing for four months almost.

Fat, not meat. No single protein in there.

At least how I'm trying to explain to myself JamesR's argumentation. Otherwise it has no sense.

It's flesh from an animal, not vegetarian.  Like pork rinds.

Fat isn't a flesh.  I take mike's side it isn't meat it's salo, it's own unique thing.  It's not pork rinds either.  It's cured back fat or belly fat.  Or smoked cured ribs.  I currently used really thick fat from a homegrown pig.  most pigs in the USA don't grow large enough to have thick back fat.  But this pig did.  We are talking 4-5 inches thick in some spots.  
 ...in any event, it isn't vegetarian.

Ah, the difference between vegetarian and vegan.  Vegetarians will eat animal byproducts, like milk/dairy and eggs.  Vegans won't eat anything that came from whatever animal.  Our fasting requires a mostly vegan diet with very few exceptions.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: choy on February 14, 2013, 07:42:10 PM
Hmm... strange. The local Latin priest here gave a rousing Ash Wednesday homily on Eastern fasting rules, and why Latins should adopt them. Being Ruthenian Catholic, I just smiled when everybody immediate smiled bright when he read the gospel passage about "And when you fast, do not look dismal, like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by men." I knew the Italian Catholics' faces would be dismal when he mentioned the ban on dairy products- including cheese.

Yes, I did realize at some point that fasting once a week in a 6-week period over a year isn't much.  But I guess for some people it is.  I think this is one of those cases where legalism just does not make any sense and that fasting should have never been legislated to such extent.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: brastaseptim on February 14, 2013, 07:52:24 PM
Hmm... strange. The local Latin priest here gave a rousing Ash Wednesday homily on Eastern fasting rules, and why Latins should adopt them. Being Ruthenian Catholic, I just smiled when everybody immediate smiled bright when he read the gospel passage about "And when you fast, do not look dismal, like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by men." I knew the Italian Catholics' faces would be dismal when he mentioned the ban on dairy products- including cheese.

Yes, I did realize at some point that fasting once a week in a 6-week period over a year isn't much.  But I guess for some people it is.  I think this is one of those cases where legalism just does not make any sense and that fasting should have never been legislated to such extent.

It is in a town full of Sicilian Catholics who's main Lenten fare consists of spaghetti and fishballs.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Avdima on January 09, 2014, 07:21:42 AM
The RCC was attractive to me a few years ago because I wanted I deeper connection to early Christians, but on my quest to dig deeper and find out more about the Roman Catholic Church and its historic ties I discovered Orthodoxy along the way and if or when I do commit to Christ its looking like the Orthodox church is the way to do it. 
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Shiny on January 09, 2014, 09:14:57 AM
It seems like everyone who is Sicilian or partly is the worst. At least the female variety.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 09, 2014, 11:11:42 AM
It seems like everyone who is Sicilian or partly is the worst. At least the female variety.

-1
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Jetavan on January 09, 2014, 11:27:41 AM
It seems like everyone who is Sicilian or partly is the worst. At least the female variety.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-PRJjLzm1GwA/TzcK63II2cI/AAAAAAAABDE/_Aw6D729kLs/s1600/i2.png)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on January 09, 2014, 01:20:06 PM
It's attractive for me on two fronts.

Fear, I worry about my salvation because of it's claims.

and convenience; it's large, powerful and influential.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Jetavan on January 09, 2014, 01:34:06 PM
It's attractive for me on two fronts.
....
and convenience; it's large, powerful and influential.
Power comes and goes.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on January 09, 2014, 01:53:28 PM
It's attractive for me on two fronts.
....
and convenience; it's large, powerful and influential.
Power comes and goes.

Meh, still half of the world's Christian population are Catholic.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Jetavan on January 09, 2014, 02:06:59 PM
It's attractive for me on two fronts.
....
and convenience; it's large, powerful and influential.
Power comes and goes.

Meh, still half of the world's Christian population are Catholic.

By "Catholic", do you mean (1) Weekly Mass-going, fully-obedient-to-the-Magisterium Catholics; or (2) anyone calling him/herself a Catholic?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on January 09, 2014, 02:28:38 PM
It's attractive for me on two fronts.
....
and convenience; it's large, powerful and influential.
Power comes and goes.

Meh, still half of the world's Christian population are Catholic.

By "Catholic", do you mean (1) Weekly Mass-going, fully-obedient-to-the-Magisterium Catholics; or (2) anyone calling him/herself a Catholic?

I mean statistically. I know many people who are Catholic don't believe or attend.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Wandile on January 09, 2014, 03:09:37 PM
It's attractive for me on two fronts.
....
and convenience; it's large, powerful and influential.
Power comes and goes.

Meh, still half of the world's Christian population are Catholic.

By "Catholic", do you mean (1) Weekly Mass-going, fully-obedient-to-the-Magisterium Catholics; or (2) anyone calling him/herself a Catholic?

I mean statistically. I know many people who are Catholic don't believe or attend.

True for most if not all Christian denominations including orthodoxy.  Just had to add that
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: montalban on January 10, 2014, 06:31:21 AM
Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?


And how do RCC Christians view Her corrupted history?

Much of it relies on its 'bigness' which has a degree of self-support. People see its vastness and think that there's something to it.

I have found when debating Catholics on the church they rely on the 'authority' of sources, rather than checking facts for themselves. They rely on quote-mines.

There's simply knee-jerk responses to discussions along set patterns. Instead of dealing with evidence they simply throw more quotes/'evidence' into the discussion as if sheer weight works.

They also stifle debate - such as on catholicanswers where they have steadily eroded the ability of non-Catholics to freely discuss matters
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: montalban on January 10, 2014, 06:32:26 AM
It's attractive for me on two fronts.
....
and convenience; it's large, powerful and influential.
Power comes and goes.

Meh, still half of the world's Christian population are Catholic.

By "Catholic", do you mean (1) Weekly Mass-going, fully-obedient-to-the-Magisterium Catholics; or (2) anyone calling him/herself a Catholic?

I mean statistically. I know many people who are Catholic don't believe or attend.

Catholics just 'obey'

I know a great many who aren't all that well versed in the church anyway. A number believe that the Immaculate Conception refers to the conception of Jesus
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Wandile on January 10, 2014, 07:02:50 AM
Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?


And how do RCC Christians view Her corrupted history?

Much of it relies on its 'bigness' which has a degree of self-support. People see its vastness and think that there's something to it.

I have found when debating Catholics on the church they rely on the 'authority' of sources, rather than checking facts for themselves. They rely on quote-mines.

There's simply knee-jerk responses to discussions along set patterns. Instead of dealing with evidence they simply throw more quotes/'evidence' into the discussion as if sheer weight works.

They also stifle debate - such as on catholicanswers where they have steadily eroded the ability of non-Catholics to freely discuss matters


Maybe because most Catholics don't strive to be internet apologists

"Quote mining" as you call it has yo be understood from the perspective of a catholic. When a quote says something's so explicit, its very hard not to use it as evidence. The fact is most Christians don't care about debating the crazy stuff we debate here. The average Christian probably does not even know about how the holy spirit proceeds etc.

Secondly the vastness of the CC is not so much its greatest appeal but its ancientness and strict adherence to moral law. Like here in South Africa , the CC isn't big, a few million, but people convert every year in because of said reasons amongst others
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on January 10, 2014, 07:39:48 AM
Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?


And how do RCC Christians view Her corrupted history?

Much of it relies on its 'bigness' which has a degree of self-support. People see its vastness and think that there's something to it.

I have found when debating Catholics on the church they rely on the 'authority' of sources, rather than checking facts for themselves. They rely on quote-mines.

There's simply knee-jerk responses to discussions along set patterns. Instead of dealing with evidence they simply throw more quotes/'evidence' into the discussion as if sheer weight works.

They also stifle debate - such as on catholicanswers where they have steadily eroded the ability of non-Catholics to freely discuss matters


Maybe because most Catholics don't strive to be internet apologists

"Quote mining" as you call it has yo be understood from the perspective of a catholic. When a quote says something's so explicit, its very hard not to use it as evidence. The fact is most Christians don't care about debating the crazy stuff we debate here. The average Christian probably does not even know about how the holy spirit proceeds etc.

Secondly the vastness of the CC is not so much its greatest appeal but its ancientness and strict adherence to moral law. Like here in South Africa , the CC isn't big, a few million, but people convert every year in because of said reasons amongst others

The quotes RCs bring are never 'explicit' they are always out of context, or on some occasions downright fabricated. The RCs that I've dialogued with anyway.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: hecma925 on January 10, 2014, 08:40:48 AM
One of the few things that remotely attracted me to Roman catholicism was Carthusian monasticism. 
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: montalban on January 10, 2014, 08:42:10 AM
Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?


And how do RCC Christians view Her corrupted history?

Much of it relies on its 'bigness' which has a degree of self-support. People see its vastness and think that there's something to it.

I have found when debating Catholics on the church they rely on the 'authority' of sources, rather than checking facts for themselves. They rely on quote-mines.

There's simply knee-jerk responses to discussions along set patterns. Instead of dealing with evidence they simply throw more quotes/'evidence' into the discussion as if sheer weight works.

They also stifle debate - such as on catholicanswers where they have steadily eroded the ability of non-Catholics to freely discuss matters


Maybe because most Catholics don't strive to be internet apologists
Then why have internet apologetics? That is the reason for Catholic Answers.

"Quote mining" as you call it has yo be understood from the perspective of a catholic. When a quote says something's so explicit, its very hard not to use it as evidence. The fact is most Christians don't care about debating the crazy stuff we debate here. The average Christian probably does not even know about how the holy spirit proceeds etc.
No. When I was considering moving from Catholicism to Orthodoxy FOUR different friends of mine, independent of each other gave me references to quote mine sites. Immediately I was impressed by the sheer volume of quotes from ECFs that seem to support the Catholic position.

However I am grateful to God that he guided me in this. I was aware of www.ccel.org where I could look at these quotes in context.

Some quotes I couldn't independently verify, so I ignored these. Others were complete misquotes, for example they cite Athanasius as saying "Rome is the apostolic throne"* when he in fact says "Rome is an apostolic throne"
History of the Arians Part V. Persecution and Lapse of Liberius.35

* two sites by way of example:
http://www.americancatholictruthsociety.com/articles/deb_papacy/chris/rebut1.htm/

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/general/primacy.htm/

Some are out of context. For instance John Chrysostom is quoted as saying that Peter is the keeper of the keys. Whilst this is true, the same saint also says that the apostle John is also the keeper of the keys.

If one were to simply read the Catholic part quote one would be impressed by the power given to Peter and not know that the same power is held equally by another apostle.

This goes on and on. Peter is the choirmaster (quoted from John Chrysostom). True, but others are also called masters of the choir.
Butler gives several examples of the use of in order to prove Peter’s uniqueness.  
(Butler, S., Dahlgren, N., & Hess, D., Jesus, Peter & the Keys: A Scriptural Handbook on the Papacy, (Queenship Publishing Company; Santa Barbara, CA), p224)

Then some Catholic apologists have side-arguments to this that the singular is used by John Chrysostom only in regards Peter, and the plural to Peter and other apostles. However this whilst being true is also selective as Hesychius of Jerusalem uses the singular term when he calls James alone the coryphæus.  
Denny, E., (1912) Papalism: A Treatise on the Claims on the Papacy as set forth in the Encyclical Satis cognitum, (Rivingtons; London), p85.

There's a source book by Giles Documents Illustrating Papal Authority AD 96-454 which is an entire book of these part quotes. But then that's its purpose. However interestingly as aside I have spent some time trying to find out who Giles is, including contacting the publisher. This man seems to be a phantom.

Secondly the vastness of the CC is not so much its greatest appeal but its ancientness and strict adherence to moral law. Like here in South Africa , the CC isn't big, a few million, but people convert every year in because of said reasons amongst others
The RCC in South Africa cannot be taken in isolation. People there who are converting aren't probably converting to the "RCC of SA" but the RCC, as a whole. They would see the pope and pageantry of the Vatican, etc.




Not just my four friends, but in the 10 years since debating this with Catholics the amount of times they simply refer to these quote mines in lieu of argument is staggering.

Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: montalban on January 10, 2014, 08:49:14 AM
Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?


And how do RCC Christians view Her corrupted history?

Much of it relies on its 'bigness' which has a degree of self-support. People see its vastness and think that there's something to it.

I have found when debating Catholics on the church they rely on the 'authority' of sources, rather than checking facts for themselves. They rely on quote-mines.

There's simply knee-jerk responses to discussions along set patterns. Instead of dealing with evidence they simply throw more quotes/'evidence' into the discussion as if sheer weight works.

They also stifle debate - such as on catholicanswers where they have steadily eroded the ability of non-Catholics to freely discuss matters


Maybe because most Catholics don't strive to be internet apologists

"Quote mining" as you call it has yo be understood from the perspective of a catholic. When a quote says something's so explicit, its very hard not to use it as evidence. The fact is most Christians don't care about debating the crazy stuff we debate here. The average Christian probably does not even know about how the holy spirit proceeds etc.

Secondly the vastness of the CC is not so much its greatest appeal but its ancientness and strict adherence to moral law. Like here in South Africa , the CC isn't big, a few million, but people convert every year in because of said reasons amongst others

The quotes RCs bring are never 'explicit' they are always out of context, or on some occasions downright fabricated. The RCs that I've dialogued with anyway.

This is in fact one of the things that confirmed me  in my rejection of the RCC. I thought that if a church has to rely on such deception then it is not a true Christian church.

They use all other weird arguments. One is that (aside from Jesus) Peter is mentioned more times than anyone else in the NT. This itself is a 'fact' but the conclusion "Peter = Pope" is not borne out by that fact. And one could simply say "Peter is MORE important than Mary because he's mentioned more times than her" - I'm sure Catholics don't devote that many prayers to Peter.

the argument from statistics immediately becomes self-defeating.

Another argument being that Peter is named first in lists of apostles. “Peter is also always listed first except in 1 Cor. 3:22 and Gal. 2:9 (which are obvious exceptions to the rule).”    
again two different Catholic sources use this argument:
The Primacy of Peter at http://www.scripturecatholic.com/primacy_of_peter.html

Patrick Madrid claims that Peter was always listed first in apostle lists, which is false. Madrid, P., (1999) Pope Fiction: Answers to 30 Myths and Misconceptions About the Papacy (Basilica Press; Rancho Santa Fe, CA), p26; making for an ironic title because Peter is NOT always listed first


obvious exceptions indeed! But why are they exceptions?

One Catholic apologist, John Salza attempts to explain these exceptions away. Salza notes that 1 Corinthians 3:22; “whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas.” Unfortunately Salza gives supposition as an explanation. He states that “Paul is actually listing these names in ascending order.”  
Salza, J., (2007) The Biblical Basis for the Papacy (Our Sunday Visitor Publishing Division; Huntington, IN), pp18-19.

It is circular reasoning in that he argues that it’s in ascending order because he assumes Peter is first. Therefore if Peter is really first then this, a listing with Peter last must be in reverse order. There is no reason to suppose that this is so. It is further flawed because if it were truly a list in reverse order it then makes Apollos who is mentioned second, the second in importance. Paul’s helper is greater than Paul!

Yet again I should note that Catholics simply cite these people as references without actually testing what it is they have to say
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Jetavan on January 10, 2014, 09:13:27 AM
Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?


And how do RCC Christians view Her corrupted history?

Much of it relies on its 'bigness' which has a degree of self-support. People see its vastness and think that there's something to it.

I have found when debating Catholics on the church they rely on the 'authority' of sources, rather than checking facts for themselves. They rely on quote-mines.

There's simply knee-jerk responses to discussions along set patterns. Instead of dealing with evidence they simply throw more quotes/'evidence' into the discussion as if sheer weight works.

They also stifle debate - such as on catholicanswers where they have steadily eroded the ability of non-Catholics to freely discuss matters


Maybe because most Catholics don't strive to be internet apologists

"Quote mining" as you call it has yo be understood from the perspective of a catholic. When a quote says something's so explicit, its very hard not to use it as evidence. The fact is most Christians don't care about debating the crazy stuff we debate here. The average Christian probably does not even know about how the holy spirit proceeds etc.

Secondly the vastness of the CC is not so much its greatest appeal but its ancientness and strict adherence to moral law. Like here in South Africa , the CC isn't big, a few million, but people convert every year in because of said reasons amongst others

The quotes RCs bring are never 'explicit' they are always out of context, or on some occasions downright fabricated. The RCs that I've dialogued with anyway.

This is in fact one of the things that confirmed me  in my rejection of the RCC. I thought that if a church has to rely on such deception then it is not a true Christian church.

To be fair, I don't think such deceptive techniques are dogma.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Iconodule on January 10, 2014, 09:18:20 AM
There are plenty of distortions in popular Orthodox polemical material. Orthodox apologists are often so eager to distance themselves from the RCC that they distort Orthodoxy.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Wandile on January 10, 2014, 09:54:01 AM
Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?


And how do RCC Christians view Her corrupted history?

Much of it relies on its 'bigness' which has a degree of self-support. People see its vastness and think that there's something to it.

I have found when debating Catholics on the church they rely on the 'authority' of sources, rather than checking facts for themselves. They rely on quote-mines.

There's simply knee-jerk responses to discussions along set patterns. Instead of dealing with evidence they simply throw more quotes/'evidence' into the discussion as if sheer weight works.

They also stifle debate - such as on catholicanswers where they have steadily eroded the ability of non-Catholics to freely discuss matters


Maybe because most Catholics don't strive to be internet apologists

"Quote mining" as you call it has yo be understood from the perspective of a catholic. When a quote says something's so explicit, its very hard not to use it as evidence. The fact is most Christians don't care about debating the crazy stuff we debate here. The average Christian probably does not even know about how the holy spirit proceeds etc.

Secondly the vastness of the CC is not so much its greatest appeal but its ancientness and strict adherence to moral law. Like here in South Africa , the CC isn't big, a few million, but people convert every year in because of said reasons amongst others

The quotes RCs bring are never 'explicit' they are always out of context, or on some occasions downright fabricated. The RCs that I've dialogued with anyway.

You've been conversing with the wrong Catholics. Honestly. I have tones of quotes that are so explicit that it boggles the mind to see some orthodox say "it means something else , its out of context" when even the surrounding context doesn't change the meaning of the quote.

Look sometimes i see Catholics quote things that are genuinely out of context. However I see many orthodox too who simply use the "out of context " claim as a cop out to confronting an explicit quote. It goes both ways.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Wandile on January 10, 2014, 09:56:22 AM
Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?


And how do RCC Christians view Her corrupted history?

Much of it relies on its 'bigness' which has a degree of self-support. People see its vastness and think that there's something to it.

I have found when debating Catholics on the church they rely on the 'authority' of sources, rather than checking facts for themselves. They rely on quote-mines.

There's simply knee-jerk responses to discussions along set patterns. Instead of dealing with evidence they simply throw more quotes/'evidence' into the discussion as if sheer weight works.

They also stifle debate - such as on catholicanswers where they have steadily eroded the ability of non-Catholics to freely discuss matters


Maybe because most Catholics don't strive to be internet apologists
Then why have internet apologetics? That is the reason for Catholic Answers.

The forums aren't for apologetics although they have apologetics subsections.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on January 10, 2014, 10:17:26 AM
It seems to me that there have always been different competing understandings of the Roman papacy at play. So to search the past for some uniform and monolithic position across time and geography before some arbitrarily chosen schism date seems pointless.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 10, 2014, 11:03:03 AM
The quotes RCs bring are never 'explicit' they are always out of context, or on some occasions downright fabricated. The RCs that I've dialogued with anyway.

You've been conversing with the wrong Catholics. Honestly. I have tones of quotes that are so explicit that it boggles the mind to see some orthodox say "it means something else , its out of context" when even the surrounding context doesn't change the meaning of the quote.

Two points:

1.  Who determines who is "the wrong Catholic" when they all accept the authority of the Pope?  I would get different versions of Catholicism from "the Nuns on the Bus" and "the Latin Mass Society of England and Wales", but they're both in good standing with Rome. 

2.  Your quotes, which boggle your mind, have very often been debunked or explained in context, and yet you criticise these unnamed others.  Perhaps you are also a "wrong Catholic"? 
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: theistgal on January 10, 2014, 11:36:41 AM
There are plenty of distortions in popular Orthodox polemical material. Orthodox apologists are often so eager to distance themselves from the RCC that they distort Orthodoxy.

Thank you for saying that. I appreciate the voices of reason, so few and far between.  :)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Auryn on January 10, 2014, 12:49:33 PM
I was attracted to Catholicism because of its beauty.  There was no way I was going to become a Protestant (because history) so I became Catholic.  Unfortunately there is little beauty left in the Church because of the change to the Mass and the entire Catholic Culture has been pretty much wiped out.  Unless you are in a city with a Traditional Latin Mass community, there is not much Catholic about being Catholic. I didn't really care so much about other issues, I just accepted them.  But, after ten years in a terrible Mass, and the plain hypocrisy of how the hierarchy 'interprets' Catholic teaching, I had to get out. 
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Wandile on January 10, 2014, 01:19:02 PM
The quotes RCs bring are never 'explicit' they are always out of context, or on some occasions downright fabricated. The RCs that I've dialogued with anyway.

You've been conversing with the wrong Catholics. Honestly. I have tones of quotes that are so explicit that it boggles the mind to see some orthodox say "it means something else , its out of context" when even the surrounding context doesn't change the meaning of the quote.

Two points:

1.  Who determines who is "the wrong Catholic" when they all accept the authority of the Pope?  I would get different versions of Catholicism from "the Nuns on the Bus" and "the Latin Mass Society of England and Wales", but they're both in good standing with Rome.

Forever misunderstanding me. When I say wrong, I mean the type of Catholics to converse to if you looking for a discussion on apologetics  

Quote
2.  Your quotes, which boggle your mind, have very often been debunked or explained in context, and yet you criticise these unnamed others.  Perhaps you are also a "wrong Catholic"?  

Oh please ::) . Very few of them have been debunked. We can search the forums now.  Most have been rock solid and either countered with other quotes or just ignored. The few attempts to debunk them have mainly been failures although I will admit a few , only few, have been debunked. Many times the surrounding context you guys try to bring to light has no bearing on the what the quote articulates.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Jetavan on January 10, 2014, 01:32:52 PM
But, after ten years in a terrible Mass, and the plain hypocrisy of how the hierarchy 'interprets' Catholic teaching, I had to get out. 

What sort of hypocrisy?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Auryn on January 10, 2014, 01:52:26 PM
But, after ten years in a terrible Mass, and the plain hypocrisy of how the hierarchy 'interprets' Catholic teaching, I had to get out. 

What sort of hypocrisy?

They teach as if hundreds of years of teaching and dogma can just be ignored.  The dogma is no salvation outside of the Church, for example, yet Pope Francis teaches atheists can just follow their conscious and be saved.  The German bishops want to give communion to remarried Catholics even though that is clearly against Catholic teaching.  The Traditional Latin Mass was supposedly banned for fifty years and yet Pope Benedict said that was a lie and it could be said by any priest who wanted to say it without the permission of his bishop.  And don't even get me started on every Vatican II pope being put up for sainthood. 
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: dzheremi on January 10, 2014, 02:26:34 PM
Maybe because most Catholics don't strive to be internet apologists

So, um...what are you doing in this post? Or most of your other posts?

Quote
"Quote mining" as you call it has yo be understood from the perspective of a catholic.


As though quote mining is qualitatively different when a Catholic does it versus when another Christian does it! Right. You're a riot, Wandile.  :D

Quote
When a quote says something's so explicit, its very hard not to use it as evidence.


Rarely do Patristic quotes actually say anything explicit in favor of the modern RCC ecclesiology or other matters that separate it from Orthodoxy. Even from Catholic sources/people, you find much reliance on parenthesis and ellipses that, when checked against what the original source material actually says in full and in context, generally makes the RC position seem much less supportable. Granted, I know that in general anything can be used to argue anything, but that's all the more reason to read primary sources, which many Catholics are loathe to do if not from RC-approved websites and the like (e.g., the Catholic Encyclopedia and such). So the whole thing becomes a big echo chamber and the RCs are convinced that they have the most "evidence" anyone could ever have, never stopping to think about (1) how their sources may be filtered or presented in such a way as to bias their conclusions, and (2) all the counterevidence they just out and out ignore or are unaware of because the RC apologists and apologetic websites never present it in the first place. 

Quote
fact is most Christians don't care about debating the crazy stuff we debate here. The average Christian probably does not even know about how the holy spirit proceeds etc.

So what? Also, this is pretty funny as some sort of point coming from an RC when your church is (in)famous for poking and prodding and defining to death every last jot and tittle of things that most Christians don't bother with. Indeed, probably most Christians historically and currently don't bother to wonder how the Holy Spirit proceeds...because for hundreds of years we had the Creed in one form or another that allowed us to say a simple statement of belief that everyone could agree on...everyone, that is, until a certain church decided to add a certain phrase that eventually made procession an issue...hmmmmmmmmmmm....

Quote
Secondly the vastness of the CC is not so much its greatest appeal but its ancientness


Is that "ancientness" in actual Church history terms (like...monastery of Mor Gabriel ancient?), or RCC terms? Because even the "old" form of your Mass dates to maybe 1370 (in accordance with the council of Trent's order that the Mass promulgated there should be used excepting those whose forms were 200 years old or older by that point). Do you know how late 1370 is? The aforementioned Mor Gabriel monastery was about 1,000 years old by that point.

Nothing in modern RCism is ancient except for the Early Church Fathers selectively quoted from to try to make all of this seem like it is not a redaction of what came before (not that there's anything necessarily wrong with redaction in itself; heck, the liturgy of St. Basil as celebrated in my Church is itself a redacted version of the original Alexandrian liturgy of St. Mark). The difference is, of course, that given the RCCs peculiar ideas of the centralized power of the Roman Pope, and concomitant idea that doctrine may 'develop', the RCC has essentially eliminated its own past and now its partisans are in the unenviable position of having to pretend as though Church history begins sometime in the middle ages. It doesn't, neither in Rome nor anywhere else.

Quote
and strict adherence to moral law

When is Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi going to be considered a moral law so that Catholics will have to at least begin to pretend to pay attention to it? The RCC needs more of that and less patting itself on the back for attempting to abscond with St. Peter and title of "Pope" and all the other things by which it claims to be the true Church of God.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: montalban on January 10, 2014, 10:10:39 PM
Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?


And how do RCC Christians view Her corrupted history?

Much of it relies on its 'bigness' which has a degree of self-support. People see its vastness and think that there's something to it.

I have found when debating Catholics on the church they rely on the 'authority' of sources, rather than checking facts for themselves. They rely on quote-mines.

There's simply knee-jerk responses to discussions along set patterns. Instead of dealing with evidence they simply throw more quotes/'evidence' into the discussion as if sheer weight works.

They also stifle debate - such as on catholicanswers where they have steadily eroded the ability of non-Catholics to freely discuss matters


Maybe because most Catholics don't strive to be internet apologists

"Quote mining" as you call it has yo be understood from the perspective of a catholic. When a quote says something's so explicit, its very hard not to use it as evidence. The fact is most Christians don't care about debating the crazy stuff we debate here. The average Christian probably does not even know about how the holy spirit proceeds etc.

Secondly the vastness of the CC is not so much its greatest appeal but its ancientness and strict adherence to moral law. Like here in South Africa , the CC isn't big, a few million, but people convert every year in because of said reasons amongst others

The quotes RCs bring are never 'explicit' they are always out of context, or on some occasions downright fabricated. The RCs that I've dialogued with anyway.

This is in fact one of the things that confirmed me  in my rejection of the RCC. I thought that if a church has to rely on such deception then it is not a true Christian church.

To be fair, I don't think such deceptive techniques are dogma.

Given that the pope used the "Donation of Constantine" knowing it was a fraud then one might think that deception is a dogma
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: montalban on January 10, 2014, 10:19:13 PM
Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?


And how do RCC Christians view Her corrupted history?

Much of it relies on its 'bigness' which has a degree of self-support. People see its vastness and think that there's something to it.

I have found when debating Catholics on the church they rely on the 'authority' of sources, rather than checking facts for themselves. They rely on quote-mines.

There's simply knee-jerk responses to discussions along set patterns. Instead of dealing with evidence they simply throw more quotes/'evidence' into the discussion as if sheer weight works.

They also stifle debate - such as on catholicanswers where they have steadily eroded the ability of non-Catholics to freely discuss matters


Maybe because most Catholics don't strive to be internet apologists

"Quote mining" as you call it has yo be understood from the perspective of a catholic. When a quote says something's so explicit, its very hard not to use it as evidence. The fact is most Christians don't care about debating the crazy stuff we debate here. The average Christian probably does not even know about how the holy spirit proceeds etc.

Secondly the vastness of the CC is not so much its greatest appeal but its ancientness and strict adherence to moral law. Like here in South Africa , the CC isn't big, a few million, but people convert every year in because of said reasons amongst others

The quotes RCs bring are never 'explicit' they are always out of context, or on some occasions downright fabricated. The RCs that I've dialogued with anyway.

You've been conversing with the wrong Catholics. Honestly. I have tones of quotes that are so explicit that it boggles the mind to see some orthodox say "it means something else , its out of context" when even the surrounding context doesn't change the meaning of the quote.

Look sometimes i see Catholics quote things that are genuinely out of context. However I see many orthodox too who simply use the "out of context " claim as a cop out to confronting an explicit quote. It goes both ways.

Claims of evidence somewhere else is also a usual tactic.

I've gone through works of luminaries such as Newman to popularists such as S. Ray - whose work is an atrocious distortion. I have referenced others here like Salza who makes a ridiculous argument to cover up for a falsehood.

(Reminder - Falsehood: Peter is always listed first in the naming of the Apostles)


It's interesting that Newman recognises no evidence in the writings of Ignatius of Antioch
"…it is true, St. Ignatius is silent in his Epistles on the subject of the Pope's authority"
Newman, J. H., (1909) An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine (Longmans, Green & Co; London), p149.

Newman goes on to state that just because Ignatius is silent on the issue it doesn't mean that the pope didn't exercise such power. Whilst this is true it instantly undermines any Catholic apologist trying to use Ignatius for the pope.

On another much misused ECF the Catholic encyclopaedia of 1911 offers this frank admission of John Chrysostom’s writings “...that there is no clear and any direct passage in favour of the primacy of the pope.”   
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08452b.htm/
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: montalban on January 10, 2014, 10:20:27 PM
The forums aren't for apologetics although they have apologetics subsections.

That's false. The banner of the site says it's for defending the faith!

"To explain and defend the faith"
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on January 10, 2014, 10:42:35 PM
Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?


And how do RCC Christians view Her corrupted history?

Much of it relies on its 'bigness' which has a degree of self-support. People see its vastness and think that there's something to it.

I have found when debating Catholics on the church they rely on the 'authority' of sources, rather than checking facts for themselves. They rely on quote-mines.

There's simply knee-jerk responses to discussions along set patterns. Instead of dealing with evidence they simply throw more quotes/'evidence' into the discussion as if sheer weight works.

They also stifle debate - such as on catholicanswers where they have steadily eroded the ability of non-Catholics to freely discuss matters


Maybe because most Catholics don't strive to be internet apologists

"Quote mining" as you call it has yo be understood from the perspective of a catholic. When a quote says something's so explicit, its very hard not to use it as evidence. The fact is most Christians don't care about debating the crazy stuff we debate here. The average Christian probably does not even know about how the holy spirit proceeds etc.

Secondly the vastness of the CC is not so much its greatest appeal but its ancientness and strict adherence to moral law. Like here in South Africa , the CC isn't big, a few million, but people convert every year in because of said reasons amongst others

The quotes RCs bring are never 'explicit' they are always out of context, or on some occasions downright fabricated. The RCs that I've dialogued with anyway.

You've been conversing with the wrong Catholics. Honestly. I have tones of quotes that are so explicit that it boggles the mind to see some orthodox say "it means something else , its out of context" when even the surrounding context doesn't change the meaning of the quote.

Look sometimes i see Catholics quote things that are genuinely out of context. However I see many orthodox too who simply use the "out of context " claim as a cop out to confronting an explicit quote. It goes both ways.

Well to mention a few... the ones below all of your posts.

Quote
They use all other weird arguments. One is that (aside from Jesus) Peter is mentioned more times than anyone else in the NT. This itself is a 'fact' but the conclusion "Peter = Pope" is not borne out by that fact. And one could simply say "Peter is MORE important than Mary because he's mentioned more times than her" - I'm sure Catholics don't devote that many prayers to Peter.

THIS!!!! I cannot tell you how mind numbing it is to go from 'Peter=Rock' to 'the Bishop of Rome is the Infallible Supreme Teacher, Guide of all Christians, the Head of the Church and Vicar of Christ and whoever believes otherwise is Anathema' (c.f., Vatican I) they never explain where they get from Peter to Pope. It's just an assertion, and it's never explained. There is no middleman explanation, apart from terrible Patristic and loose Scriptural ones.

Quote
Oh please Roll Eyes . Very few of them have been debunked. We can search the forums now.  Most have been rock solid and either countered with other quotes or just ignored. The few attempts to debunk them have mainly been failures although I will admit a few , only few, have been debunked. Many times the surrounding context you guys try to bring to light has no bearing on the what the quote articulates.

I have rummaged through the RC-Orthodox Discussion forum plenty of times just looking for a good argument. I on very rare occasion find one that isn't answered with paragraphs of other opposing quotes.

Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 10, 2014, 11:13:20 PM
Forever misunderstanding me. When I say wrong, I mean the type of Catholics to converse to if you looking for a discussion on apologetics  

So what is the right kind of Catholic to discuss apologetics with? 

Quote
Oh please ::) . Very few of them have been debunked. We can search the forums now.  Most have been rock solid and either countered with other quotes or just ignored. The few attempts to debunk them have mainly been failures although I will admit a few , only few, have been debunked. Many times the surrounding context you guys try to bring to light has no bearing on the what the quote articulates.

The burden of proof is on you, if even you admit some of your proof has been debunked, to prove that the rest of your proof is reliable. 
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: montalban on January 11, 2014, 12:05:06 AM
Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?


And how do RCC Christians view Her corrupted history?

Much of it relies on its 'bigness' which has a degree of self-support. People see its vastness and think that there's something to it.

I have found when debating Catholics on the church they rely on the 'authority' of sources, rather than checking facts for themselves. They rely on quote-mines.

There's simply knee-jerk responses to discussions along set patterns. Instead of dealing with evidence they simply throw more quotes/'evidence' into the discussion as if sheer weight works.

They also stifle debate - such as on catholicanswers where they have steadily eroded the ability of non-Catholics to freely discuss matters


Maybe because most Catholics don't strive to be internet apologists

"Quote mining" as you call it has yo be understood from the perspective of a catholic. When a quote says something's so explicit, its very hard not to use it as evidence. The fact is most Christians don't care about debating the crazy stuff we debate here. The average Christian probably does not even know about how the holy spirit proceeds etc.

Secondly the vastness of the CC is not so much its greatest appeal but its ancientness and strict adherence to moral law. Like here in South Africa , the CC isn't big, a few million, but people convert every year in because of said reasons amongst others

The quotes RCs bring are never 'explicit' they are always out of context, or on some occasions downright fabricated. The RCs that I've dialogued with anyway.

You've been conversing with the wrong Catholics. Honestly. I have tones of quotes that are so explicit that it boggles the mind to see some orthodox say "it means something else , its out of context" when even the surrounding context doesn't change the meaning of the quote.

Look sometimes i see Catholics quote things that are genuinely out of context. However I see many orthodox too who simply use the "out of context " claim as a cop out to confronting an explicit quote. It goes both ways.

Well to mention a few... the ones below all of your posts.

Quote
They use all other weird arguments. One is that (aside from Jesus) Peter is mentioned more times than anyone else in the NT. This itself is a 'fact' but the conclusion "Peter = Pope" is not borne out by that fact. And one could simply say "Peter is MORE important than Mary because he's mentioned more times than her" - I'm sure Catholics don't devote that many prayers to Peter.

THIS!!!! I cannot tell you how mind numbing it is to go from 'Peter=Rock' to 'the Bishop of Rome is the Infallible Supreme Teacher, Guide of all Christians, the Head of the Church and Vicar of Christ and whoever believes otherwise is Anathema' (c.f., Vatican I) they never explain where they get from Peter to Pope. It's just an assertion, and it's never explained. There is no middleman explanation, apart from terrible Patristic and loose Scriptural ones.

Quote
Oh please Roll Eyes . Very few of them have been debunked. We can search the forums now.  Most have been rock solid and either countered with other quotes or just ignored. The few attempts to debunk them have mainly been failures although I will admit a few , only few, have been debunked. Many times the surrounding context you guys try to bring to light has no bearing on the what the quote articulates.

I have rummaged through the RC-Orthodox Discussion forum plenty of times just looking for a good argument. I on very rare occasion find one that isn't answered with paragraphs of other opposing quotes.


One of the more remarkable Catholic arguments is that of sola scriptura. Most believe that this is a Protestant doctrine, but Catholics adopt it with regard the Gospel of Matthew.

Mathew explicitly gives Peter the keys. However in Mt 18:18 he gives the same powers to the other Apostles. "BUT!" Catholics object "He doesn't mention the keys here!" This is true, but one has to argue that the keys aren't implied, only if one takes a literalist argument - and there are many ECFs who note that the keys were given to the other apostles - that is, they understood Mt 18:18 as implying 'keys' were given


Catholics state a fact (even if it's a part quote) and then leap to a conclusion not borne out by that fact.


Fact: Peter's name was changed*
Their conclusion - Peter was pope!


*here's but two different Catholic apologists who cite this as significant
Ott, L., (1974), Fundamentals of Catholic Doctrine (Tan Books and Publishers; Rockford, Il.), p280.

Langan, T., (1998) The Catholic Tradition (University of Missouri; Columbia, MO.), p98


But then Saul became Paul! I recognise that there’s no direct biblical evidence to suggest that the Lord changed Saul’s name to Paul, and Catholics certainly use this point (as another sola scriptura argument Catholics sometimes resort to) to suggest it is only Peter whose name was changed by Jesus. In other examples in the bible it is God who changed the person’s name (such as Abram to Abraham). It is thus suggested that when a name change happens, God is one who makes it happen. And thus despite the direct biblical evidence there are Church Fathers that accept that it was God who changed Saul’s name to Paul.
"Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ." Why did God change his name, and call him Paul who was Saul? It was, that he might not even in this respect come short of the Apostles, but that that pre-eminence which the chief of the Disciples had, he might also acquire (Mark iii. 16); and have whereon to ground a closer union with them”
John Chrysostom – Homilies on the Acts of the Apostles - Homily I (Acts I. 1, 2.). Note here too that Paul is to be given the pre-eminence of Peter.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: montalban on January 11, 2014, 12:07:22 AM
When arguing on Catholic answers shortly before being banned there people were making arguments from incredulity... that the RCC just must be the church, 'cause it's been around 2,000 years.

And, they also argued that Jesus promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against the church - therefore if the RCC isn't the church, then Jesus was a liar.

This assumes that the RCC is THAT church that Jesus was speaking of, and not the EOC.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: arnI on January 11, 2014, 08:28:12 AM
I admit that I listen to the EWTN Radio Open Line program occasionally because the questions and answers can be interesting at times.
Below is a paraphrase of how the apologist answered when a woman recently asked how she should respond to an Orthodox Christian that believes the Orthodox Church is the True Church:

1. That the Orthodox recognize that the Pope is "first among equals" among the early major Bishops. This is to support Papal Primacy.
2. That all the other Early Major Bishoprics succumbed to at least one heresy while Rome has not. So therefore the Roman Catholic must be the True Church.
3. That only the Catholic Church continues to call Ecumenical Councils, and that the the Orthodox have failed to convene an Ecumenical Council since the schism because the Orthodox lack the Pope to confirm what the Council teaches.

The portion covering the Orthodox question starts at 12:00 and ends at around 16:00 at the below link:
http://ewtn.edgeboss.net/wmedia/ewtn/audiolibrary/ol_01062014.mp3

Seems to be rather weak arguments to counter our Orthodox claim, but it is delivered in only four minutes in his defense.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Nephi on January 11, 2014, 12:12:18 PM
3. That only the Catholic Church continues to call Ecumenical Councils, and that the the Orthodox have failed to convene an Ecumenical Council since the schism because the Orthodox lack the Pope to confirm what the Council teaches.

Ignoring the "lacking the Pope" bit, I have seen the point come up that Catholicism still has Ecumenical Councils and EO/OO don't. It makes me wonder why they assume that holding them is necessary component of the Church. But I suppose it makes sense, what with all those Ecumenical Councils before Nicaea I defending the faith that have been binding on all souls everywhere since then.

The average EO I've seen grapple with the question don't tend to know how to react.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: montalban on January 11, 2014, 10:13:56 PM
I admit that I listen to the EWTN Radio Open Line program occasionally because the questions and answers can be interesting at times.
Below is a paraphrase of how the apologist answered when a woman recently asked how she should respond to an Orthodox Christian that believes the Orthodox Church is the True Church:

1. That the Orthodox recognize that the Pope is "first among equals" among the early major Bishops. This is to support Papal Primacy.
I think they're being misleading. Primacy is not what Catholics believe in. They believe in Supremacy.


2. That all the other Early Major Bishoprics succumbed to at least one heresy while Rome has not. So therefore the Roman Catholic must be the True Church.
A pope was struck off the lists for support of heresy - from memory that pope was Honorius

3. That only the Catholic Church continues to call Ecumenical Councils, and that the the Orthodox have failed to convene an Ecumenical Council since the schism because the Orthodox lack the Pope to confirm what the Council teaches.
Well that's circular-logic.

Only the church in Rome calls Ecumenical Councils for its own church!

However look at the first Ecumenical Councils. Called for by the emperor, presided over the emperor (or holding his Sacra, a representative). All held in the east.

The portion covering the Orthodox question starts at 12:00 and ends at around 16:00 at the below link:
http://ewtn.edgeboss.net/wmedia/ewtn/audiolibrary/ol_01062014.mp3

Seems to be rather weak arguments to counter our Orthodox claim, but it is delivered in only four minutes in his defense.
:laugh:
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: montalban on January 11, 2014, 10:17:11 PM
3. That only the Catholic Church continues to call Ecumenical Councils, and that the the Orthodox have failed to convene an Ecumenical Council since the schism because the Orthodox lack the Pope to confirm what the Council teaches.

Ignoring the "lacking the Pope" bit, I have seen the point come up that Catholicism still has Ecumenical Councils and EO/OO don't. It makes me wonder why they assume that holding them is necessary component of the Church. But I suppose it makes sense, what with all those Ecumenical Councils before Nicaea I defending the faith that have been binding on all souls everywhere since then.

The average EO I've seen grapple with the question don't tend to know how to react.


Starting with the model of the Council in Acts 15 - Ecumencial Councils normally met in reaction to a crisis. They met to remedy a matter of faith - they were not merely to change matters of discipline but to define matters of faith.

When we look at Catholic 'Ecumenical Councils' like Vatican II one wonders what crisis of faith caused them to call it. What great heresy was sweeping through the church? Same with Vatican I

Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on January 11, 2014, 10:46:28 PM
3. That only the Catholic Church continues to call Ecumenical Councils, and that the the Orthodox have failed to convene an Ecumenical Council since the schism because the Orthodox lack the Pope to confirm what the Council teaches.

Ignoring the "lacking the Pope" bit, I have seen the point come up that Catholicism still has Ecumenical Councils and EO/OO don't. It makes me wonder why they assume that holding them is necessary component of the Church. But I suppose it makes sense, what with all those Ecumenical Councils before Nicaea I defending the faith that have been binding on all souls everywhere since then.

The average EO I've seen grapple with the question don't tend to know how to react.

The Roman councils are all unrelated to the first seven. Namely, that Christ's person is defined. The Council of Vatican I was about the Pope; Vatican II was about Ecumenism, Florence about East-West Schism, Trent about Protestantism etc. It seems more like Roman councils are more like shaping public policy than ecumenical in the sense of the early Church.

I admit that I listen to the EWTN Radio Open Line program occasionally because the questions and answers can be interesting at times.
Below is a paraphrase of how the apologist answered when a woman recently asked how she should respond to an Orthodox Christian that believes the Orthodox Church is the True Church:

1. That the Orthodox recognize that the Pope is "first among equals" among the early major Bishops. This is to support Papal Primacy.
I think they're being misleading. Primacy is not what Catholics believe in. They believe in Supremacy.


2. That all the other Early Major Bishoprics succumbed to at least one heresy while Rome has not. So therefore the Roman Catholic must be the True Church.
A pope was struck off the lists for support of heresy - from memory that pope was Honorius

3. That only the Catholic Church continues to call Ecumenical Councils, and that the the Orthodox have failed to convene an Ecumenical Council since the schism because the Orthodox lack the Pope to confirm what the Council teaches.
Well that's circular-logic.

Only the church in Rome calls Ecumenical Councils for its own church!

However look at the first Ecumenical Councils. Called for by the emperor, presided over the emperor (or holding his Sacra, a representative). All held in the east.

This. Furthermore, Honorius was condemned... by an Ecumenical council. Funny how Vatican I claims that the Pope is superior to the Ecumenical councils and Honorius was anathematized by one.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: stanley123 on January 11, 2014, 11:09:42 PM
It's so attractive because it's easier than Orthodoxy...
I am not sure about that. For example, is it a serious sin, gravely wrong, for an Eastern Orthodox not to attend Divine Liturgy every Sunday? What percentage of Eastern Orthodox in Bulgaria, Georgia, Romania, Moldova, attend Divine Liturgy every Sunday?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: dzheremi on January 11, 2014, 11:46:44 PM
It's so attractive because it's easier than Orthodoxy...
I am not sure about that. For example, is it a serious sin, gravely wrong, for an Eastern Orthodox not to attend Divine Liturgy every Sunday? What percentage of Eastern Orthodox in Bulgaria, Georgia, Romania, Moldova, attend Divine Liturgy every Sunday?

We might ask why RC mass attendance is so poor across the board (http://cara.georgetown.edu/caraservices/intmassattendance.html) even when you guys have this rule that it's a "serious sin" to miss weekly mass (I mean, I personally don't care, but it's not a crazy thing to wonder if you want to prod the Orthodox on this account). Other than Poland and Malta (not included at the link, but I've read stats as high as 84% in that country; bravo, Malta), there really isn't all that much for the RCC to be proud of in its worldwide weekly attendance statistics...anything hovering around a quarter of the people could be considered "high" when considered with the abysmal attendance in traditionally Catholic countries like France, Czech Republic, Slovenia, etc. I suppose Mexico is probably not completely lost yet, either, but the Protestants and secularists are really doing a number on the RC there, too (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/22/us-mexico-pope-idUSBRE82L06E20120322), unfortunately. :(

Edit: Just so we're clear, I'm not looking for a fight. I don't think any communion should feel comfortable anywhere in the world, given how many claim affiliation without attending services beyond weddings and baptisms. Such is the world we live in.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: stanley123 on January 12, 2014, 12:28:10 AM
Edit: Just so we're clear, I'm not looking for a fight.
Oh sure.  That's why someone said that RCC is so attractive because it is easier than Orthodoxy. 
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 12, 2014, 12:32:03 AM
Edit: Just so we're clear, I'm not looking for a fight.
Oh sure.  That's why someone said that RCC is so attractive because it is easier than Orthodoxy. 

Then why not discuss it with that person?  Perhaps you are looking for a fight?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Kerdy on January 12, 2014, 12:36:54 AM
Funny how Vatican I claims that the Pope is superior to the Ecumenical councils.
That would be funny, if it actually said this.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Kerdy on January 12, 2014, 12:48:04 AM
What makes it so attractive?  I don't know, but it sure helps when you guys talk more about the Catholic Church than you do Orthodoxy, attack it at every opportunity and can't or won't defend your own faith without distortions of truth (i.e., twisting what the Catholics says) and arguing amongst yourselves about what this or that Orthodox Church believes.  Or just outright attacks on Orthodox churches because of their cultural backgrounds revealing prejudice within your own ranks and showing Orthodoxy may not be as solid and bound together as you say it is. 

But hey, what do I know?  I just read your own contradictions and distortions when you post them. 
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: stanley123 on January 12, 2014, 01:37:48 AM
Edit: Just so we're clear, I'm not looking for a fight.
Oh sure.  That's why someone said that RCC is so attractive because it is easier than Orthodoxy. 

Then why not discuss it with that person?  Perhaps you are looking for a fight?
The fact is that the RC Church and the EO Church are both quite attractive, and also the OO Church. All three  Churches have their positives. If what is meant here by "attractive" is that the RC Church has more members than the EO or OO Church, this can be attributed to historical considerations.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: montalban on January 12, 2014, 02:18:31 AM
Funny how Vatican I claims that the Pope is superior to the Ecumenical councils.
That would be funny, if it actually said this.
I think it has elements of this even if not explicitly stated



"This council was summoned by Pope Pius IX by the bull Aeterni Patris of 29 June 1868. The first session was held in St. Peter's basilica on 8 December 1869 in the presence and under the presidency of the Pope."
http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/v1.htm

The pope is the president and summoned the council
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: montalban on January 12, 2014, 02:31:50 AM
It's so attractive because it's easier than Orthodoxy...
I am not sure about that. For example, is it a serious sin, gravely wrong, for an Eastern Orthodox not to attend Divine Liturgy every Sunday? What percentage of Eastern Orthodox in Bulgaria, Georgia, Romania, Moldova, attend Divine Liturgy every Sunday?

Whilst it's a tragedy - low church attendance - I'm not sure if it's a sin within Orthodoxy to not attend. I could be wrong
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: montalban on January 12, 2014, 02:32:53 AM
What makes it so attractive?  I don't know, but it sure helps when you guys talk more about the Catholic Church than you do Orthodoxy, attack it at every opportunity and can't or won't defend your own faith without distortions of truth (i.e., twisting what the Catholics says) and arguing amongst yourselves about what this or that Orthodox Church believes.  Or just outright attacks on Orthodox churches because of their cultural backgrounds revealing prejudice within your own ranks and showing Orthodoxy may not be as solid and bound together as you say it is. 

But hey, what do I know?  I just read your own contradictions and distortions when you post them. 

It's very easy to make generalist observances such as this.

Do you have anything specific?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Kerdy on January 12, 2014, 02:38:02 AM
Funny how Vatican I claims that the Pope is superior to the Ecumenical councils.
That would be funny, if it actually said this.
I think it has elements of this even if not explicitly stated



"This council was summoned by Pope Pius IX by the bull Aeterni Patris of 29 June 1868. The first session was held in St. Peter's basilica on 8 December 1869 in the presence and under the presidency of the Pope."
http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/v1.htm

The pope is the president and summoned the council
So, the Catholic Church never said the Pope was above the Ecumenical Councils, as accused, but he presided over them.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Kerdy on January 12, 2014, 02:39:43 AM
What makes it so attractive?  I don't know, but it sure helps when you guys talk more about the Catholic Church than you do Orthodoxy, attack it at every opportunity and can't or won't defend your own faith without distortions of truth (i.e., twisting what the Catholics says) and arguing amongst yourselves about what this or that Orthodox Church believes.  Or just outright attacks on Orthodox churches because of their cultural backgrounds revealing prejudice within your own ranks and showing Orthodoxy may not be as solid and bound together as you say it is. 

But hey, what do I know?  I just read your own contradictions and distortions when you post them. 

It's very easy to make generalist observances such as this.

Especially with so much to observe. 
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: montalban on January 12, 2014, 02:42:41 AM
Funny how Vatican I claims that the Pope is superior to the Ecumenical councils.
That would be funny, if it actually said this.
I think it has elements of this even if not explicitly stated



"This council was summoned by Pope Pius IX by the bull Aeterni Patris of 29 June 1868. The first session was held in St. Peter's basilica on 8 December 1869 in the presence and under the presidency of the Pope."
http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/v1.htm

The pope is the president and summoned the council
So, the Catholic Church never said the Pope was above the Ecumenical Councils, as accused, but he presided over them.

The Catholic church has said he presided over it, which is saying he is above the Ecumenical Councils.

He can call the council.

He can dismiss it.

He can reject its findings, or accept them.

If you want to say that this is not above them, that's up to you.

You want to call it something other than what it is.


I should note that the 'presiding' of the first Ecumenical Councils carried with it no such powers. That is, the Catholic 'president' - the pope is very much over their councils whereas the original presidents were not.



In my years of discussing these matters I have noted a great many Catholic apologists wish to have their cake and eat it - arguing both for papal supremacy and also that the pope is just another bishop.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: montalban on January 12, 2014, 02:44:18 AM
What makes it so attractive?  I don't know, but it sure helps when you guys talk more about the Catholic Church than you do Orthodoxy, attack it at every opportunity and can't or won't defend your own faith without distortions of truth (i.e., twisting what the Catholics says) and arguing amongst yourselves about what this or that Orthodox Church believes.  Or just outright attacks on Orthodox churches because of their cultural backgrounds revealing prejudice within your own ranks and showing Orthodoxy may not be as solid and bound together as you say it is.  

But hey, what do I know?  I just read your own contradictions and distortions when you post them.  

It's very easy to make generalist observances such as this.

Especially with so much to observe.  

I offered for you to come up with something specific (which you didn't include in your quote of me above). You have not done so. All you've done is countered with more generalist criticism
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: LBK on January 12, 2014, 02:46:58 AM
Funny how Vatican I claims that the Pope is superior to the Ecumenical councils.
That would be funny, if it actually said this.
I think it has elements of this even if not explicitly stated



"This council was summoned by Pope Pius IX by the bull Aeterni Patris of 29 June 1868. The first session was held in St. Peter's basilica on 8 December 1869 in the presence and under the presidency of the Pope."
http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/v1.htm

The pope is the president and summoned the council
So, the Catholic Church never said the Pope was above the Ecumenical Councils, as accused, but he presided over them.

Said by Pope Pius IX, at that council, in response to Cardinal Guidi's speech, where he argued for an "infallibility of the Magisterium", not an "infallibility of the Pope":

“Io, io sono la tradizione, io, io sono la Chiesa!” (I, I am the tradition. I, I am the Church!)
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Kerdy on January 12, 2014, 03:25:33 AM
Funny how Vatican I claims that the Pope is superior to the Ecumenical councils.
That would be funny, if it actually said this.
I think it has elements of this even if not explicitly stated



"This council was summoned by Pope Pius IX by the bull Aeterni Patris of 29 June 1868. The first session was held in St. Peter's basilica on 8 December 1869 in the presence and under the presidency of the Pope."
http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/v1.htm

The pope is the president and summoned the council
So, the Catholic Church never said the Pope was above the Ecumenical Councils, as accused, but he presided over them.

The Catholic church has said he presided over it, which is saying he is above the Ecumenical Councils.

He can call the council.

He can dismiss it.

He can reject its findings, or accept them.

If you want to say that this is not above them, that's up to you.

You want to call it something other than what it is.


I should note that the 'presiding' of the first Ecumenical Councils carried with it no such powers. That is, the Catholic 'president' - the pope is very much over their councils whereas the original presidents were not.



In my years of discussing these matters I have noted a great many Catholic apologists wish to have their cake and eat it - arguing both for papal supremacy and also that the pope is just another bishop.

Please pay close attention to what is actually being said, thanks!  Also, this addresses another question you asked in a separate post as evidence. 
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Kerdy on January 12, 2014, 03:28:58 AM
Funny how Vatican I claims that the Pope is superior to the Ecumenical councils.
That would be funny, if it actually said this.
I think it has elements of this even if not explicitly stated



"This council was summoned by Pope Pius IX by the bull Aeterni Patris of 29 June 1868. The first session was held in St. Peter's basilica on 8 December 1869 in the presence and under the presidency of the Pope."
http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/v1.htm

The pope is the president and summoned the council
So, the Catholic Church never said the Pope was above the Ecumenical Councils, as accused, but he presided over them.

Said by Pope Pius IX, at that council, in response to Cardinal Guidi's speech, where he argued for an "infallibility of the Magisterium", not an "infallibility of the Pope":

“Io, io sono la tradizione, io, io sono la Chiesa!” (I, I am the tradition. I, I am the Church!)

So he said he was superior to the council?  No.  Also, context is rather important I should think, considering the confusion people have about infallibility and when/how it applies according to the Catholic Churches own teachings.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: LBK on January 12, 2014, 03:45:42 AM
Funny how Vatican I claims that the Pope is superior to the Ecumenical councils.
That would be funny, if it actually said this.
I think it has elements of this even if not explicitly stated



"This council was summoned by Pope Pius IX by the bull Aeterni Patris of 29 June 1868. The first session was held in St. Peter's basilica on 8 December 1869 in the presence and under the presidency of the Pope."
http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/v1.htm

The pope is the president and summoned the council
So, the Catholic Church never said the Pope was above the Ecumenical Councils, as accused, but he presided over them.

Said by Pope Pius IX, at that council, in response to Cardinal Guidi's speech, where he argued for an "infallibility of the Magisterium", not an "infallibility of the Pope":

“Io, io sono la tradizione, io, io sono la Chiesa!” (I, I am the tradition. I, I am the Church!)

So he said he was superior to the council?  No.  Also, context is rather important I should think, considering the confusion people have about infallibility and when/how it applies according to the Catholic Churches own teachings.

Yes, the Pope did say he was superior to the council. Are his words so unclear to you? Please read my post again as to the circumstances which led to the Pope saying what he did.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Kerdy on January 12, 2014, 03:48:39 AM
What makes it so attractive?  I don't know, but it sure helps when you guys talk more about the Catholic Church than you do Orthodoxy, attack it at every opportunity and can't or won't defend your own faith without distortions of truth (i.e., twisting what the Catholics says) and arguing amongst yourselves about what this or that Orthodox Church believes.  Or just outright attacks on Orthodox churches because of their cultural backgrounds revealing prejudice within your own ranks and showing Orthodoxy may not be as solid and bound together as you say it is.  

But hey, what do I know?  I just read your own contradictions and distortions when you post them.  

It's very easy to make generalist observances such as this.

Especially with so much to observe.  

I offered for you to come up with something specific (which you didn't include in your quote of me above). You have not done so. All you've done is countered with more generalist criticism

If I asked you to show me how much water was in the ocean, how would you respond?  By telling me to stand on the beach and take it all in?  If I didn't and said since you didn't reply the way I wanted I said the ocean was not filled with massive amounts of water, you would think I was either pretty dumb of being obstinate.  In the same way when you ask me to show you evidence of my criticism, which I clearly do not have to defend in the first place as it is my own personal observation, I say the same thing.  Stand on the beach and take it all in.  There is plenty of water to look at and consider.  All you have to do is start with the Catholic themes threads and read the vitriol spewed on the screen.  But don't take my word for it, go see for yourself.  That sort of foolishness is one of the reasons I have been so scarce of late.  I prefer not to debate with people who are purposely obtuse.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Kerdy on January 12, 2014, 03:49:31 AM
Funny how Vatican I claims that the Pope is superior to the Ecumenical councils.
That would be funny, if it actually said this.
I think it has elements of this even if not explicitly stated



"This council was summoned by Pope Pius IX by the bull Aeterni Patris of 29 June 1868. The first session was held in St. Peter's basilica on 8 December 1869 in the presence and under the presidency of the Pope."
http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/v1.htm

The pope is the president and summoned the council
So, the Catholic Church never said the Pope was above the Ecumenical Councils, as accused, but he presided over them.

Said by Pope Pius IX, at that council, in response to Cardinal Guidi's speech, where he argued for an "infallibility of the Magisterium", not an "infallibility of the Pope":

“Io, io sono la tradizione, io, io sono la Chiesa!” (I, I am the tradition. I, I am the Church!)

So he said he was superior to the council?  No.  Also, context is rather important I should think, considering the confusion people have about infallibility and when/how it applies according to the Catholic Churches own teachings.

Yes, the Pope did say he was superior to the council. Are his words so unclear to you? Please read my post again as to the circumstances which led to the Pope saying what he did.

Sorry, I didn't see where he said that.  Maybe you can point it out specifically where he said, "I am superior to Ecumenical Councils."

Also, if you could, please describe the separation of the Pope and the Magisterium regarding infallibility because the Catholic Church teaches they work in unison, as in together, collectively, not separate.


The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

[CCC 889] In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is the
Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility.  By a "supernatural sense of faith" the People of God,
under the guidance of the Church's living Magisterium, "unfailingly adheres to this faith."

[CCC 890] The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God
with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium's task to preserve God's people from deviations and defections
and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty
of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates.  To fulfill this
service, Christ endowed the Church's shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals.
The exercise of this charism takes several forms:

[CCC 891] "The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when,
as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith - he proclaims by a
definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith and morals ... The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in
the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the Supreme Magisterium," above all in
an Ecumenical Council.  When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as
being divinely revealed," and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of
faith. This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of Divine Revelation itself.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: LBK on January 12, 2014, 03:57:35 AM
What part of "I, I am the tradition. I, I am the Church!" do you have trouble understanding, Kerdy? The notion of papal infallibility only became proclaimed a dogma in 1870, at the First Vatican council, by the very pope who uttered the above words.

Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Kerdy on January 12, 2014, 03:59:29 AM
What part of "I, I am the tradition. I, I am the Church!" do you have trouble understanding, Kerdy? The notion of papal infallibility only became proclaimed a dogma in 1870, at the First Vatican council, by the very pope who uttered the above words.



You know, I never said you had to agree, but its a little dishonest to misrepresent it, don't you think?

This also addresses the question of why continued councils in the Catholic Church.  Perhaps, to address accusations against it such as the ones being placed here.  To clarify and dogmatize that which was always taught.  Like in the first councils.  Just because it was finally dogmatized doesn't mean it was not taught previously unless you want to apply this idea to the first councils.  Also, I did a little looking and your quote is only found, that I can see, in books written by others outside the Catholic Church.  Would you accept such literary sources against an Orthodox Bishop? 
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: LBK on January 12, 2014, 04:02:55 AM
What part of "I, I am the tradition. I, I am the Church!" do you have trouble understanding, Kerdy? The notion of papal infallibility only became proclaimed a dogma in 1870, at the First Vatican council, by the very pope who uttered the above words.



You know, I never said you had to agree, but its a little dishonest to misrepresent it, don't you think?

Show me where I have misrepresented what Pius IX has said.  :police:
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: dzheremi on January 12, 2014, 04:04:27 AM
I'm pretty sure the Roman Pope is considered as superior to ecumenical councils according to the RCC's own documents. From Pastor Aeternus (http://catholicplanet.org/councils/20-Pastor-Aeternus.htm), the dogmatic constitution of the first Vatican council, 1870:

"Therefore, they stray from the right course who assert that it is lawful to appeal from the judgments of the Roman Pontiffs to an Ecumenical Council, as if to an authority higher than that of the Roman Pontiff."


I don't really understand how this is different than just out and out saying "the Pope is superior to ecumenical councils", but maybe someone else can explain how they're different, if they are.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Kerdy on January 12, 2014, 04:05:35 AM
What part of "I, I am the tradition. I, I am the Church!" do you have trouble understanding, Kerdy? The notion of papal infallibility only became proclaimed a dogma in 1870, at the First Vatican council, by the very pope who uttered the above words.



You know, I never said you had to agree, but its a little dishonest to misrepresent it, don't you think?

Show me where I have misrepresented what Pius IX has said.  :police:

Show me where the Catholic Church teaches what you guys are pretending it does.   :police:

While you are at it, provide your source.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Kerdy on January 12, 2014, 04:07:37 AM
I'm pretty sure the Roman Pope is considered as superior to ecumenical councils according to the RCC's own documents. From Pastor Aeternus (http://catholicplanet.org/councils/20-Pastor-Aeternus.htm), the dogmatic constitution of the first Vatican council, 1870:

"Therefore, they stray from the right course who assert that it is lawful to appeal from the judgments of the Roman Pontiffs to an Ecumenical Council, as if to an authority higher than that of the Roman Pontiff."


I don't really understand how this is different than just out and out saying "the Pope is superior to ecumenical councils", but maybe someone else can explain how they're different, if they are.

Except, it didn't say that.  What you say it says is a personal interpretation, not Catholic teachings, and likely taken out of context to fit an argument.  In fact, the quote above may be interpreted to be the opposite of what you say it means.  I am not reading through all of that to find your one line reference.  
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: dzheremi on January 12, 2014, 04:12:35 AM
Um...what? The portion I placed in italics is a direct quote from the constitution itself, which I linked in the same post so that you could read it in the context of the whole text. ???

Boy...even using the Vatican's own documents to discuss the issue leads to trouble. Am I on CAF right now...? Is it April Fool's day already?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Kerdy on January 12, 2014, 04:14:43 AM
Um...what? The portion I placed in italics is a direct quote from the constitution itself, which I linked in the same post so that you could read it in the context of the whole text. ???

Boy...even using the Vatican's own documents to discuss the issue leads to trouble. Am I on CAF right now...? Is it April Fool's day already?

If I gave you a quote from the bible and said it was in John, would that be enough for you or would you want a more specific place to look?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: LBK on January 12, 2014, 04:15:22 AM
What part of "I, I am the tradition. I, I am the Church!" do you have trouble understanding, Kerdy? The notion of papal infallibility only became proclaimed a dogma in 1870, at the First Vatican council, by the very pope who uttered the above words.



You know, I never said you had to agree, but its a little dishonest to misrepresent it, don't you think?

Show me where I have misrepresented what Pius IX has said.  :police:

Show me where the Catholic Church teaches what you guys are pretending it does.   :police:

While you are at it, provide your source.  Thanks!

Are you denying Pius IX did not say those words in response to Cardinal Guidi's speech which advocated conciliar, not autocratic, proclamation of doctrine and dogma?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Kerdy on January 12, 2014, 04:19:01 AM
So, lets get back to it.  Where does the Catholic Church teach the Pope is SUPERIOR to an Ecumenical Council.  Stop with the word games and get right to the heart of it, Catholic Church teachings.  I have provided CCC (you know, the Catechism of the Catholic Church) sources which deny the claims, but now its up to you guys to prove.  

And in case you missed it the first time:

[CCC 891] "The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when,
as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith - he proclaims by a
definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith and morals ... The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in
the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the Supreme Magisterium,"
above all in
an Ecumenical Council.
When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as
being divinely revealed," and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of
faith. This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of Divine Revelation itself.

(for those still confused on what the CC actually teaches, not what you heard one day at the bus stop)

(and see how the Pope and the Bishops are together the Magisterium, something also confused on this thread)

Go...

*If you are going to argue against something, you should make sure you know what you are arguing against.  There is an old saying, "Better to Remain Silent and Be Thought a Fool than to Speak and Remove All Doubt".  You should know what the Catholic Church actually believes before you start attacking it.  Then, you can actually disagree with what it does teach rather than what you THINK it teaches.*
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on January 12, 2014, 04:24:08 AM
So, lets get back to it.  Where does the Catholic Church teach the Pope is SUPERIOR to an Ecumenical Council.  Stop with the word games and get right to the heart of it, Catholic Church teachings.  I have provided CCC (you know, the Catechism of the Catholic Church) sources which deny the claims, but now its up to you guys to prove.  

And in case you missed it the first time:

[CCC 891] "The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when,
as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith - he proclaims by a
definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith and morals ... The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in
the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the Supreme Magisterium,"
above all in
an Ecumenical Council.
When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as
being divinely revealed," and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of
faith. This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of Divine Revelation itself.

(for those still confused on what the CC actually teaches, not what you heard one day at the bus stop)

Go...
Have you become Roman Catholic during your break from this forum? Otherwise, it's quite funny to watch an Orthodox Christian defend the Roman Catholic faith as you have tonight.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: LBK on January 12, 2014, 04:36:11 AM
So, lets get back to it.  Where does the Catholic Church teach the Pope is SUPERIOR to an Ecumenical Council.  Stop with the word games and get right to the heart of it, Catholic Church teachings.  I have provided CCC (you know, the Catechism of the Catholic Church) sources which deny the claims, but now its up to you guys to prove.  

And in case you missed it the first time:

[CCC 891] "The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when,
as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith - he proclaims by a
definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith and morals ... The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in
the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the Supreme Magisterium,"
above all in
an Ecumenical Council.
When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as
being divinely revealed," and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of
faith. This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of Divine Revelation itself.

(for those still confused on what the CC actually teaches, not what you heard one day at the bus stop)

Go...
Have you become Roman Catholic during your break from this forum? Otherwise, it's quite funny to watch an Orthodox Christian defend the Roman Catholic faith as you have tonight.

It's not funny, but tragic.  :(  :'(  :'(
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Kerdy on January 12, 2014, 04:41:19 AM
So, lets get back to it.  Where does the Catholic Church teach the Pope is SUPERIOR to an Ecumenical Council.  Stop with the word games and get right to the heart of it, Catholic Church teachings.  I have provided CCC (you know, the Catechism of the Catholic Church) sources which deny the claims, but now its up to you guys to prove.  

And in case you missed it the first time:

[CCC 891] "The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when,
as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith - he proclaims by a
definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith and morals ... The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in
the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the Supreme Magisterium,"
above all in
an Ecumenical Council.
When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as
being divinely revealed," and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of
faith. This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of Divine Revelation itself.

(for those still confused on what the CC actually teaches, not what you heard one day at the bus stop)

Go...
Have you become Roman Catholic during your break from this forum? Otherwise, it's quite funny to watch an Orthodox Christian defend the Roman Catholic faith as you have tonight.

It's not funny, but tragic.  :(  :'(  :'(

So, you have nothing?  I am honestly surprised, but I was at least hoping for something substantial.  Tragic indeed.  You are usually really good at this, but I suppose we all have our moments.  Around these parts, the anti-Catholicism is stronger than sensible discourse.  What is tragic about my defending something or someone against false accusations (lies)?  I don't have to agree with them to defend what is right.

I hope this teaches some of you something very serious.  It is one thing to make a claim; it is another to actually back it up.  It also should show you probably should actually know what you are talking about before you start blasting someone or something (i.e., 95% of what is said on this forum regarding the Catholic Church).
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: dzheremi on January 12, 2014, 04:43:33 AM
Um...what? The portion I placed in italics is a direct quote from the constitution itself, which I linked in the same post so that you could read it in the context of the whole text. ???

Boy...even using the Vatican's own documents to discuss the issue leads to trouble. Am I on CAF right now...? Is it April Fool's day already?

If I gave you a quote from the bible and said it was in John, would that be enough for you or would you want a more specific place to look?

I named the document, I linked to the full document, and I quoted the relevant portion of the document. It is the constitution of the Vatican council. I don't know what else you want, but I'm less than interested in continuing this conversation, as I'm not RC.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Kerdy on January 12, 2014, 04:47:58 AM
Um...what? The portion I placed in italics is a direct quote from the constitution itself, which I linked in the same post so that you could read it in the context of the whole text. ???

Boy...even using the Vatican's own documents to discuss the issue leads to trouble. Am I on CAF right now...? Is it April Fool's day already?

If I gave you a quote from the bible and said it was in John, would that be enough for you or would you want a more specific place to look?

I named the document, I linked to the full document, and I quoted the relevant portion of the document. It is the constitution of the Vatican council. I don't know what else you want, but I'm less than interested in continuing this conversation, as I'm not RC.

I am not Roman Catholic either, but what does that have to do with anything?  You participated in the discussion and I asked for a specific place to look within a large amount of information.  If you can’t or won’t provide that, it’s ok with me too as I strongly suspect your interpretation is wrong and out of context.

EDIT:  I found it and still it does not support the claim the Pope is superior to an Ecumenical Council, at least not in the context suggested here.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: LBK on January 12, 2014, 04:56:59 AM
Um...what? The portion I placed in italics is a direct quote from the constitution itself, which I linked in the same post so that you could read it in the context of the whole text. ???

Boy...even using the Vatican's own documents to discuss the issue leads to trouble. Am I on CAF right now...? Is it April Fool's day already?

If I gave you a quote from the bible and said it was in John, would that be enough for you or would you want a more specific place to look?

I named the document, I linked to the full document, and I quoted the relevant portion of the document. It is the constitution of the Vatican council. I don't know what else you want, but I'm less than interested in continuing this conversation, as I'm not RC.

I am not Roman Catholic either, but what does that have to do with anything?  You participated in the discussion and I asked for a specific place to look within a large amount of information.  If you can’t or won’t provide that, it’s ok with me too as I strongly suspect your interpretation is wrong and out of context.

Dzheremi provided source and text, yet you still are not satisfied.

As for your RC apologetics, the wisdom of many an Orthodox sage comes to mind with regard to those new to the faith: they should concentrate in growing in the faith, and not concern themselves with what the heterodox teach or believe, lest the foundation of their own faith be compromised.

But what would I know, I'm just an old grump.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Kerdy on January 12, 2014, 04:58:26 AM
Um...what? The portion I placed in italics is a direct quote from the constitution itself, which I linked in the same post so that you could read it in the context of the whole text. ???

Boy...even using the Vatican's own documents to discuss the issue leads to trouble. Am I on CAF right now...? Is it April Fool's day already?

If I gave you a quote from the bible and said it was in John, would that be enough for you or would you want a more specific place to look?

I named the document, I linked to the full document, and I quoted the relevant portion of the document. It is the constitution of the Vatican council. I don't know what else you want, but I'm less than interested in continuing this conversation, as I'm not RC.

I am not Roman Catholic either, but what does that have to do with anything?  You participated in the discussion and I asked for a specific place to look within a large amount of information.  If you can’t or won’t provide that, it’s ok with me too as I strongly suspect your interpretation is wrong and out of context.

Dzheremi provided source and text, yet you still are not satisfied.

As for your RC apologetics, the wisdom of many an Orthodox sage comes to mind with regard to those new to the faith: they should concentrate in growing in the faith, and not concern themselves with what the heterodox teach or believe, lest the foundation of their own faith be compromised.

But what would I know, I'm just an old grump.

Satisfied with what?  He provided nothing but one quote and nothing else.  That isn't much.  Don't we have a typical response to Protestants who do this with bible scripture?

So, folks around here are going to start worrying about Orthodoxy and stop worrying about Catholicism?  That will be a refreshing thing to witness.  It will be even more refreshing if they can actually get along and agree within Orthodoxy rather than fight like siblings claiming the other is wrong and they are right.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: LBK on January 12, 2014, 05:02:41 AM
Um...what? The portion I placed in italics is a direct quote from the constitution itself, which I linked in the same post so that you could read it in the context of the whole text. ???

Boy...even using the Vatican's own documents to discuss the issue leads to trouble. Am I on CAF right now...? Is it April Fool's day already?

If I gave you a quote from the bible and said it was in John, would that be enough for you or would you want a more specific place to look?

I named the document, I linked to the full document, and I quoted the relevant portion of the document. It is the constitution of the Vatican council. I don't know what else you want, but I'm less than interested in continuing this conversation, as I'm not RC.

I am not Roman Catholic either, but what does that have to do with anything?  You participated in the discussion and I asked for a specific place to look within a large amount of information.  If you can’t or won’t provide that, it’s ok with me too as I strongly suspect your interpretation is wrong and out of context.

Dzheremi provided source and text, yet you still are not satisfied.

As for your RC apologetics, the wisdom of many an Orthodox sage comes to mind with regard to those new to the faith: they should concentrate in growing in the faith, and not concern themselves with what the heterodox teach or believe, lest the foundation of their own faith be compromised.

But what would I know, I'm just an old grump.

Satisfied with what?  He provided nothing but one quote and nothing else.  That isn't much.

So, folks around here are going to start worrying about Orthodoxy and stop worrying about Catholicism?  That will be a refreshing thing to witness.

I'm not worried about Catholicism, it cannot shake my Orthodox faith, but I will proclaim and defend Orthodoxy when the need arises, be it on this forum, or in real life. Can you say the same for yourself?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: LBK on January 12, 2014, 05:08:44 AM
It will be even more refreshing if they can actually get along and agree within Orthodoxy rather than fight like siblings claiming the other is wrong and they are right.

Wow. Have you grown so much in the faith in your short time in the Church that you know and have experienced the fullness of its teaching?  ???
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Kerdy on January 12, 2014, 05:13:59 AM
Um...what? The portion I placed in italics is a direct quote from the constitution itself, which I linked in the same post so that you could read it in the context of the whole text. ???

Boy...even using the Vatican's own documents to discuss the issue leads to trouble. Am I on CAF right now...? Is it April Fool's day already?

If I gave you a quote from the bible and said it was in John, would that be enough for you or would you want a more specific place to look?

I named the document, I linked to the full document, and I quoted the relevant portion of the document. It is the constitution of the Vatican council. I don't know what else you want, but I'm less than interested in continuing this conversation, as I'm not RC.

I am not Roman Catholic either, but what does that have to do with anything?  You participated in the discussion and I asked for a specific place to look within a large amount of information.  If you can’t or won’t provide that, it’s ok with me too as I strongly suspect your interpretation is wrong and out of context.

Dzheremi provided source and text, yet you still are not satisfied.

As for your RC apologetics, the wisdom of many an Orthodox sage comes to mind with regard to those new to the faith: they should concentrate in growing in the faith, and not concern themselves with what the heterodox teach or believe, lest the foundation of their own faith be compromised.

But what would I know, I'm just an old grump.

Satisfied with what?  He provided nothing but one quote and nothing else.  That isn't much.

So, folks around here are going to start worrying about Orthodoxy and stop worrying about Catholicism?  That will be a refreshing thing to witness.

I'm not worried about Catholicism, it cannot shake my Orthodox faith, but I will proclaim and defend Orthodoxy when the need arises, be it on this forum, or in real life. Can you say the same for yourself?

You defend the Orthodox faith by making false claims against another faith?  How does that work?

Me?  I defend the truth no matter who is wrong.  The truth is, telling lies about the Catholic Church is wrong.  If you disagree with something, fine, but don't lie about what someone else says.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Kerdy on January 12, 2014, 05:17:35 AM
It will be even more refreshing if they can actually get along and agree within Orthodoxy rather than fight like siblings claiming the other is wrong and they are right.

Wow. Have you grown so much in the faith in your short time in the Church that you know and have experienced the fullness of its teaching?  ???

This addresses what I said how?  That's right, it didn't, but since you brought it up I can tell when people act juvenile and it doesn't take 20 years in the desert to figure that out. 

Instead of attempting to belittle my experience and knowledge, try actually supporting your claims and if you can't just say so.  At least then you will maintain your dignity.  This applies to a lot of people here, not just you.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: LBK on January 12, 2014, 05:19:41 AM
Um...what? The portion I placed in italics is a direct quote from the constitution itself, which I linked in the same post so that you could read it in the context of the whole text. ???

Boy...even using the Vatican's own documents to discuss the issue leads to trouble. Am I on CAF right now...? Is it April Fool's day already?

If I gave you a quote from the bible and said it was in John, would that be enough for you or would you want a more specific place to look?

I named the document, I linked to the full document, and I quoted the relevant portion of the document. It is the constitution of the Vatican council. I don't know what else you want, but I'm less than interested in continuing this conversation, as I'm not RC.

I am not Roman Catholic either, but what does that have to do with anything?  You participated in the discussion and I asked for a specific place to look within a large amount of information.  If you can’t or won’t provide that, it’s ok with me too as I strongly suspect your interpretation is wrong and out of context.

Dzheremi provided source and text, yet you still are not satisfied.

As for your RC apologetics, the wisdom of many an Orthodox sage comes to mind with regard to those new to the faith: they should concentrate in growing in the faith, and not concern themselves with what the heterodox teach or believe, lest the foundation of their own faith be compromised.

But what would I know, I'm just an old grump.

Satisfied with what?  He provided nothing but one quote and nothing else.  That isn't much.

So, folks around here are going to start worrying about Orthodoxy and stop worrying about Catholicism?  That will be a refreshing thing to witness.

I'm not worried about Catholicism, it cannot shake my Orthodox faith, but I will proclaim and defend Orthodoxy when the need arises, be it on this forum, or in real life. Can you say the same for yourself?

You defend the Orthodox faith by making false claims against another?  How does that work?

Me?  I defend the truth no matter who is wrong.  The truth is, telling lies about the Catholic Church is wrong.  If you disagree with something, fine, but don't lie about what someone else says.

I misrepresented no-one and nothing.

As for the truth you claim to defend, it might be more profitable for you to seek and defend Truth, the truth of the faith you have been recently baptized into.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Kerdy on January 12, 2014, 05:21:45 AM
I see the favorite car manufacturer around here is still Dodge.   :(
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: LBK on January 12, 2014, 05:24:11 AM
It will be even more refreshing if they can actually get along and agree within Orthodoxy rather than fight like siblings claiming the other is wrong and they are right.

Wow. Have you grown so much in the faith in your short time in the Church that you know and have experienced the fullness of its teaching?  ???

This addresses what I said how?  That's right, it didn't, but since you brought it up I can tell when people act juvenile and it doesn't take 20 years in the desert to figure that out. 

Instead of attempting to belittle my experience and knowledge, try actually supporting your claims and if you can't just say so.  At least then you will maintain your dignity.  This applies to a lot of people here, not just you.

You might wish to look at my posting history here, where I have frequently defended Orthodoxy from the established traditions of the Church, notably her liturgical and iconographic deposits. There is where the core and essence of Truth lies, everything else flows from there. You would do well to immerse yourself in these treasures, and leave unprofitable heterodox apologetics aside.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Kerdy on January 12, 2014, 05:25:17 AM
It's attractive for me on two fronts.
....
and convenience; it's large, powerful and influential.
Power comes and goes.

Meh, still half of the world's Christian population are Catholic.

By "Catholic", do you mean (1) Weekly Mass-going, fully-obedient-to-the-Magisterium Catholics; or (2) anyone calling him/herself a Catholic?

I mean statistically. I know many people who are Catholic don't believe or attend.

Catholics just 'obey'

I know a great many who aren't all that well versed in the church anyway. A number believe that the Immaculate Conception refers to the conception of Jesus
And I have met a great many who are extremely well versed in the Church teachings, Scripture and Tradition.  They do obey, but not in the way you seem to imply.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Kerdy on January 12, 2014, 05:26:27 AM
There are plenty of distortions in popular Orthodox polemical material. Orthodox apologists are often so eager to distance themselves from the RCC that they distort Orthodoxy.

Very true, unfortunately. 
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Kerdy on January 12, 2014, 05:27:19 AM
Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?


And how do RCC Christians view Her corrupted history?

Much of it relies on its 'bigness' which has a degree of self-support. People see its vastness and think that there's something to it.

I have found when debating Catholics on the church they rely on the 'authority' of sources, rather than checking facts for themselves. They rely on quote-mines.

There's simply knee-jerk responses to discussions along set patterns. Instead of dealing with evidence they simply throw more quotes/'evidence' into the discussion as if sheer weight works.

They also stifle debate - such as on catholicanswers where they have steadily eroded the ability of non-Catholics to freely discuss matters


Maybe because most Catholics don't strive to be internet apologists

"Quote mining" as you call it has yo be understood from the perspective of a catholic. When a quote says something's so explicit, its very hard not to use it as evidence. The fact is most Christians don't care about debating the crazy stuff we debate here. The average Christian probably does not even know about how the holy spirit proceeds etc.

Secondly the vastness of the CC is not so much its greatest appeal but its ancientness and strict adherence to moral law. Like here in South Africa , the CC isn't big, a few million, but people convert every year in because of said reasons amongst others

The quotes RCs bring are never 'explicit' they are always out of context, or on some occasions downright fabricated. The RCs that I've dialogued with anyway.

You've been conversing with the wrong Catholics. Honestly. I have tones of quotes that are so explicit that it boggles the mind to see some orthodox say "it means something else , its out of context" when even the surrounding context doesn't change the meaning of the quote.

Look sometimes i see Catholics quote things that are genuinely out of context. However I see many orthodox too who simply use the "out of context " claim as a cop out to confronting an explicit quote. It goes both ways.

It certainly does as evidenced in this thread.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Kerdy on January 12, 2014, 05:30:26 AM
But, after ten years in a terrible Mass, and the plain hypocrisy of how the hierarchy 'interprets' Catholic teaching, I had to get out.  

What sort of hypocrisy?

They teach as if hundreds of years of teaching and dogma can just be ignored.  The dogma is no salvation outside of the Church, for example, yet Pope Francis teaches atheists can just follow their conscious and be saved.  The German bishops want to give communion to remarried Catholics even though that is clearly against Catholic teaching.  The Traditional Latin Mass was supposedly banned for fifty years and yet Pope Benedict said that was a lie and it could be said by any priest who wanted to say it without the permission of his bishop.  And don't even get me started on every Vatican II pope being put up for sainthood.  

Except for the first one, these are all cultural, not dogmatic.  I would have to study the first one before I made a comment.  I wouldn't want to say something which isn't true like so many other people seem to enjoy doing.  Pope Francis is often quoted out of context.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Auryn on January 12, 2014, 06:39:19 AM
But, after ten years in a terrible Mass, and the plain hypocrisy of how the hierarchy 'interprets' Catholic teaching, I had to get out.  

What sort of hypocrisy?

They teach as if hundreds of years of teaching and dogma can just be ignored.  The dogma is no salvation outside of the Church, for example, yet Pope Francis teaches atheists can just follow their conscious and be saved.  The German bishops want to give communion to remarried Catholics even though that is clearly against Catholic teaching.  The Traditional Latin Mass was supposedly banned for fifty years and yet Pope Benedict said that was a lie and it could be said by any priest who wanted to say it without the permission of his bishop.  And don't even get me started on every Vatican II pope being put up for sainthood.  

Except for the first one, these are all cultural, not dogmatic.  I would have to study the first one before I made a comment.  I wouldn't want to say something which isn't true like so many other people seem to enjoy doing.  Pope Francis is often quoted out of context.

Pope Francis doesn't need to be quoted 'out of context'.  I am so sick of that canard.  You should get off CAF for a while. 
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: Kerdy on January 12, 2014, 06:54:05 AM
But, after ten years in a terrible Mass, and the plain hypocrisy of how the hierarchy 'interprets' Catholic teaching, I had to get out.  

What sort of hypocrisy?

They teach as if hundreds of years of teaching and dogma can just be ignored.  The dogma is no salvation outside of the Church, for example, yet Pope Francis teaches atheists can just follow their conscious and be saved.  The German bishops want to give communion to remarried Catholics even though that is clearly against Catholic teaching.  The Traditional Latin Mass was supposedly banned for fifty years and yet Pope Benedict said that was a lie and it could be said by any priest who wanted to say it without the permission of his bishop.  And don't even get me started on every Vatican II pope being put up for sainthood.  

Except for the first one, these are all cultural, not dogmatic.  I would have to study the first one before I made a comment.  I wouldn't want to say something which isn't true like so many other people seem to enjoy doing.  Pope Francis is often quoted out of context.

Pope Francis doesn't need to be quoted 'out of context'.  I am so sick of that canard.  You should get off CAF for a while.  
Right, so when he says something, someone takes it out of context and the next day he has to tell them they were wrong, it's really just he got caught...is that about right?

I don't have to be on CAF (???) to realize this, I just have to be able to read.  I'd say most of what I read about the Pope is taken out of context by modern secularist types who desperately want to convince people the Catholic Church has changed on hot topic matters, which it has not, of course.  It's no different than if someone did it to the Metropolitan of Russia and accused him of something unjustly, which had been done or the EP of Constantinople.

You sound like a high school girl who dated a Marine and got her feelings hurt so she becomes anti-Marine Corps, or someone who had a big rig almost run them off the road once so all truck drivers are reckless.  

I do agree the Pope doesn't need to be quoted out of context; however, that doesn't stop him from being quoted out of context on a regular basis. In fact, I bet you fell for an out of context quote. 

But it's nice you focused only on this part and ignored the rest as if they don't matter (though they apparently did before) and you seem to be, as a Catholic, unaware of those things.  Strange indeed.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: LBK on January 12, 2014, 06:55:01 AM
But, after ten years in a terrible Mass, and the plain hypocrisy of how the hierarchy 'interprets' Catholic teaching, I had to get out.  

What sort of hypocrisy?

They teach as if hundreds of years of teaching and dogma can just be ignored.  The dogma is no salvation outside of the Church, for example, yet Pope Francis teaches atheists can just follow their conscious and be saved.  The German bishops want to give communion to remarried Catholics even though that is clearly against Catholic teaching.  The Traditional Latin Mass was supposedly banned for fifty years and yet Pope Benedict said that was a lie and it could be said by any priest who wanted to say it without the permission of his bishop.  And don't even get me started on every Vatican II pope being put up for sainthood.  

Except for the first one, these are all cultural, not dogmatic.  I would have to study the first one before I made a comment.  I wouldn't want to say something which isn't true like so many other people seem to enjoy doing.  Pope Francis is often quoted out of context.

Former Roman Catholics have posted on this thread. Are you saying they're not presenting RC teachings correctly?
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: montalban on January 12, 2014, 06:58:54 AM

Please pay close attention to what is actually being said, thanks!  Also, this addresses another question you asked in a separate post as evidence. 

Thank you for the ironic quote. I noted that you think 'presides' doesn't mean superior. I don't know why you have this novel interpretation.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: montalban on January 12, 2014, 07:00:39 AM
If I asked you to show me how much water was in the ocean, how would you respond?  By telling me to stand on the beach and take it all in?  
This makes no sense. I can now see why your posts don't see 'superior' and 'presides' as similar.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: montalban on January 12, 2014, 07:03:02 AM
I see the favorite car manufacturer around here is still Dodge.   :(
Thank you for another ironic post. I invited you to come up with specific examples for your claim. This still has not happened.
Title: Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
Post by: montalban on January 12, 2014, 07:04:34 AM

It certainly does as evidenced in this thread.