OrthodoxChristianity.net

Moderated Forums => Liturgy => Western Rite Discussion => Topic started by: Joseph Hazen on November 15, 2012, 12:31:33 AM

Title: Historical Western Rite Vestments
Post by: Joseph Hazen on November 15, 2012, 12:31:33 AM
Sleeper's Icon got me curious; what would St. Patrick's clothing have looked like? The Icons of him I've seen have him in a hood sometimes but I don't know why (monastic clothing of the time?) and sometimes he's dressed like an Eastern bishop but I don't know how historically accurate that is.

So I'm just curious, anybody have links to illustrations of historical Western vestments? Especially what St. Patrick would've worn? What about other Western saints? St. Cædmon (wasn't he a layman?) St. Benedict, St. Hildegard (what would nuns wear back then?) I'd love to see what these looked like.
Title: Re: Historical Western Rite Vestments
Post by: militantsparrow on November 29, 2012, 06:05:24 AM
Id like to know as well.
Title: Re: Historical Western Rite Vestments
Post by: jmbejdl on November 29, 2012, 06:19:55 AM
I can't really reply regarding St. Patrick but as I knew that they had found remenants of vestments with the remains of St. Cuthbert I thought we're bound to know what the Anglo-Saxons wore, so I googled around and found this site, which should give you some idea:

http://www.regia.org/church3.htm (http://www.regia.org/church3.htm)

It's from a re-enactment society but seems a pretty well respected one.

James
Title: Re: Historical Western Rite Vestments
Post by: Alpo on November 29, 2012, 06:46:08 AM
Here's Fr. Aidan's interpretation: WR vestments (http://sarisburium.blogspot.fi/2011/07/here-is-illustration-of-old-style.html)
Title: Re: Historical Western Rite Vestments
Post by: tkirn1 on December 07, 2012, 12:59:29 AM
Here is a link to an article on the Catholic blog: New Liturgical Movement.

http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2009/12/how-to-properly-or-improperly-wear.html (http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2009/12/how-to-properly-or-improperly-wear.html)

The Conical Chasubles of the Western tradition closely match the priest's vestment currently worn in the East; Sorry I don't know what the Eastern equivalent is called.

Title: Re: Historical Western Rite Vestments
Post by: tkirn1 on December 07, 2012, 01:05:30 AM
This is a picture of a Roman Catholic Deacon, prior to a Mass celebrated according to the Ambrosian rite.

http://orbiscatholicus.blogspot.com/2009/01/how-ambrosian-rite-deacon-is-vested.html (http://orbiscatholicus.blogspot.com/2009/01/how-ambrosian-rite-deacon-is-vested.html)

An oddity for Western rite Catholic Deacons in modern times, it appears that the Ambrosian Deacon's stole remains above the Dalmatic and not underneath.
Title: Re: Historical Western Rite Vestments
Post by: Alpo on December 07, 2012, 01:50:19 AM
An oddity for Western rite Catholic Deacons in modern times, it appears that the Ambrosian Deacon's stole remains above the Dalmatic and not underneath.

Interesting. That's how how a recently celebrated Orthodox Roman rite mass was conducted. Here (http://bit.ly/O2KOZN) are some pictures.
Title: Re: Historical Western Rite Vestments
Post by: witega on December 07, 2012, 03:59:32 AM
St. Cædmon (wasn't he a layman?)

After he received his vision and his gift, St. Caedmon became a monk at the monastery of Whitby. He was never ordained, so should be portrayed simply as a monk, no vestments. Whitby's founder, St. Hild, received her monastic training from St. Aidan of Lindisfarne so it would have originally followed the Irish traditions (their tonsure was different than the Roman 'crown tonsure', I have no idea if there was any difference in the monastic habit between the Irish and Roman tradition) but St. Caedmon entered the monastery some 2 decades after the Synod of Whitby had resulted in a general shift from the Irish tradition to the Roman so he probably received the crown tonsure.
Title: Re: Historical Western Rite Vestments
Post by: LakaYaRabb on December 11, 2012, 08:52:12 PM
Interesting Vestments. Notice the alb, esp. the 'cuffs' and such.
http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2012/12/more-historic-vestments.html (http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2012/12/more-historic-vestments.html)
Title: Re: Historical Western Rite Vestments
Post by: Fr.Aidan on December 12, 2012, 08:30:40 PM
In France, in the Western Rite, priests even used to have metallic cuffs like the ER poruchi (cuffs).

Old Western Rite is VERY much closer to the Greco-Russian Orthodox traditions of today. High-backed phelons = Western. Iconostasis = Western. Prostrations made during Lenten services = Western. Sign of the Cross with three fingers right to left = Western. Etc.
Title: Re: Historical Western Rite Vestments
Post by: LakaYaRabb on December 12, 2012, 11:08:46 PM
In France, in the Western Rite, priests even used to have metallic cuffs like the ER poruchi (cuffs).

Old Western Rite is VERY much closer to the Greco-Russian Orthodox traditions of today. High-backed phelons = Western. Iconostasis = Western. Prostrations made during Lenten services = Western. Sign of the Cross with three fingers right to left = Western. Etc.

Father Bless!

Very Interesting. If you take a look in the comments section of the link I posted, there is mention of a belt or zone that was of Sarum use. The poster indicates that was a wider belt with tassles/frills at the end. He posted a link to a painting which shows this vestment.
Title: Re: Historical Western Rite Vestments
Post by: Shlomlokh on December 12, 2012, 11:37:02 PM
Interesting Vestments. Notice the alb, esp. the 'cuffs' and such.
http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2012/12/more-historic-vestments.html (http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2012/12/more-historic-vestments.html)
Those are really nice! How wonderful it would be to see the WR using these types of vestments.

In Christ,
Andrew
Title: Re: Historical Western Rite Vestments
Post by: Fr.Aidan on December 12, 2012, 11:37:42 PM
Nothing specially "Sarum" about the zona. It was what was always used in the Roman rite until the Franciscan Order, at the end of the middle ages, started experimenting liturgically with ropes.

A Western Rite Liturgy using these types of vestments was celebrated at the ROCOR Western Rite Vicariate annual Conference in Wappinger Falls, New York, on Aug. 9, 2012. I was the priest celebrating. There are pictures of this at:

http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Conference2012/Conference-August2012.html

Actually, the albs were not all in the old Roman rite style, but some had the large-end sleeves which became popular in the 20th century. But the chasuble, dalmatic, tunicle, zonae, and other items, including the chalice veil, were the traditional Roman rite style.
Title: Re: Historical Western Rite Vestments
Post by: LakaYaRabb on December 13, 2012, 12:33:25 AM
Excellent photos Father, thank you.
Title: Re: Historical Western Rite Vestments
Post by: Shlomlokh on December 13, 2012, 11:19:11 AM
Nothing specially "Sarum" about the zona. It was what was always used in the Roman rite until the Franciscan Order, at the end of the middle ages, started experimenting liturgically with ropes.

A Western Rite Liturgy using these types of vestments was celebrated at the ROCOR Western Rite Vicariate annual Conference in Wappinger Falls, New York, on Aug. 9, 2012. I was the priest celebrating. There are pictures of this at:

http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Conference2012/Conference-August2012.html

Actually, the albs were not all in the old Roman rite style, but some had the large-end sleeves which became popular in the 20th century. But the chasuble, dalmatic, tunicle, zonae, and other items, including the chalice veil, were the traditional Roman rite style.
Could you explain a bit about the Pax icon? I haven't really heard of it before learning of WR Orthodoxy and I still don't know much about it.

In Christ,
Andrew
Title: Re: Historical Western Rite Vestments
Post by: augustin717 on December 13, 2012, 11:59:18 AM
i would assume it's some archeological reconstruction of something that might have never existed to begin with.
Title: Re: Historical Western Rite Vestments
Post by: Fr.Aidan on December 13, 2012, 07:21:39 PM
The pax icon (the historic term is the "pax-brede" where "brede" is akin to modern "board") was a two-dimensional icon of Christ brought from the subdeacon to the nave to be kissed by the people as a replacement for the more ancient personal kiss of peace between the men on the right side and the women on the left side. It is a mediaeval custom that is neither theoretical nor sparsely-documented.

They usually had a little handle on the back of them and rested on the altar between uses.

I wouldn't call an icon an "archaeological reconstruction."  ???
Title: Re: Historical Western Rite Vestments
Post by: ialmisry on December 13, 2012, 10:28:15 PM
i would assume it's some archeological reconstruction of something that might have never existed to begin with.
Shocking as it might seem, Christianity, and Orthodox Christianity at that, existed in the West even as far as the British Isles almost as long as in the East in Romania.

Of course, we have to reconstruct Orthodox Christianity in Romania from archaeology before 1054.  That is, if we are not among the many who think that it might not have existed to begin with before then.
Title: Re: Historical Western Rite Vestments
Post by: Christopher McAvoy on December 14, 2012, 03:58:44 AM
The ambrosian deacons vestments and the 12th century alb of St. Boniface from viterbo diocese , Italy are both stellar examples that I pray we see used as blueprints for future latin rite orthodox vestments.

http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2012/03/more-new-vestment-work-and-some-laetare.html (http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2012/03/more-new-vestment-work-and-some-laetare.html)
These RC canons "of new jerusalem" who celebrate exclusively trad mass, also have an excellent collection of historically oriented vestments. I believe they take orders and will sell them. They are very talented, their prior is has specialized in vestment making for most of his life.

The Pax instrument is ancient, but only as ancient as the 13th c.

http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2008/07/fr.html (http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2008/07/fr.html)

Quote
The Pax Instrument (as we Dominicans call it), Osculatorium Pacis, Pax-Brede, or Pax-Board, is often simply referred to as the "Pax." It seems to have been introduced in Western Liturgy in the early thirteenth century. It has been a part of the Dominican Rite liturgy at least since the time of Humbert's Reform (1256). Instruments of ivory, wood, silver (as here) or other metals exist. As you can see in the image to the right that of Holy Rosary shows on the front Our Savior crowned with thorns in the traditional image of the Man of Sorrows or Ecce Homo. This is one of the common images for a Pax. Other possible images are an Agnus Dei or the Crucifixion. I know of one where the image is of Our Lady. There is no obligatory image and it might even be a simple cross. The back of the instrument has a handle so that it can be presented for kissing. You can see the handle on the back of the Portland Pax, which includes a commemorative inscription, in the second picture.

I for one would be most pleased to encounter an "Agnus Dei" image on them, though I suspect that may be less popular amongst others due to reasons already made clear on this forum in previous posts.

I wonder how many churches preserved the original kiss of peace custom. I never forget how much I enjoyed the solemn quick and subtle syriac kiss of peace in their holy qurbonos, it had so much less fuss and so much focus on the eucharist rather than some of the "social oriented" ones that seem to be present in "Novus ordos". Whether the non-chalcedonians revived it or continuously used it I do not know.

If the kiss of peace is good enough for the syriac jacobite churches to preserve in syria and india, I think its fine for the latin rite to use an actual kiss of peace as well, if they do not the pax image serves as a fine substitute, even if it is a slightly later developmen, it makes sense. I have seen both practices done, they're both better than the "secular hand shake". Although, it could be said that the version I encountered amonst the syriacs is something akin to an indian/aramaic version of handshake quite possibly? ,You have to see it firsthand to know it, I can't describe it. Still I like that custom better, they also take their shoes off in church and men and women sit separately on each half of the church. These are customs to admire are they not?
Title: Re: Historical Western Rite Vestments
Post by: Fr.Aidan on December 17, 2012, 09:03:51 PM
The actual personal kiss of peace amongst the Christian worshippers is something that could be contemplated, but, it seems to me, only in cases where all men are on one side of the church, and all women on the other side, as in pre-modern Western Rite. To have men and women intermingled in the congregation, and then have a personal kiss of peace, is something absent from all Christian history up to the time of the late 20th century. I don't need to even point out why this was never done.

But the fact remains that the custom of the pax icon was introduced even when the sexes were properly segregated (something I find quite difficult to implement in this day and age, in a Russian parish; it's just not very well known; I have mentioned it, encourage it, but do not require it). Have the pastoral reasons behind that 800-year-old change ceased to apply in our days? It's a question worth asking.

It appears that at New Jerusalem they have traditional chasubles over non-traditional albs, making an odd impression. De gustibus vero non est disputandum.