OrthodoxChristianity.net

Moderated Forums => Free-For-All => Religious Topics => Topic started by: CDHealy on October 08, 2002, 10:45:08 AM

Title: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: CDHealy on October 08, 2002, 10:45:08 AM
Greetings, all:

I sent a message to anastasios earlier on the question of how Orthodox understand the issue of homosexuality.  I cite the substance of that message:

"Due to the debate which broke out briefly on the topic of the ikon, that is, the issue of homosexuality, I became interested in the Orthodox Church's position on that topic.  I came most recently from the ultraliberal ECUSA and their open acceptance of non-celibate gays and lesbians.  So this issue is more than interesting to me.  I don't want to jump back into the fire, so to speak.

"But I am also sensitive to the polarized emotions this topic can bring forth.  That is why I'm positing my question to you.

"Does the Orthodox Church differentiate between 'orientation' and behavior?  I assume it condemns homosexual behavior, but what is the view of the Church on those who understand themselves to be "oriented" toward same sex sexual attractions?  Does it believe such attractions can be 'healed'?  Or does it understand them to be constitutive but by grace able to be controlled along the moral norms set out in Scripture and the Tradition?"

To this anastasios replied [deleting some introductory comments]:

"The short answer is this: the Orthodox have consistently viewed sin as a darkening of the nous (the reasoning function of the soul; usually translated as 'mind' but encompasing more that that).  So any sin is due to a darkening of the nous.  Of course this is not an excuse, but rather an explanation of the 'how'.

"A nous can be purified, and so perhaps the homosexual orientation can be cured.  But that is not up to anyone to discuss outside of confession; it is no one's business.  If someone is a public sinner acting on his urges, then he is condemned, but to have the orientation itself is not sinful, but rather a product of the fallen state and darkened nous."

[Deleting the closing.]

He then added a clarification in a separate message [deleting greeting]:

"Yes you may post your question and my reply, as long as you add, 'This is my personal opinion and what I understand the Orthodox Church to teach; if I am wrong on any point please correct me.' as I don't want to represent myself as an official spokesman."

[Deleting the closing.]

So, I would like to post my question and anastasios' initial reply to the board for comment.

I understand that this is an issue around which many emotions and passions swirl.  I would prefer to keep this in the realm of theology and doctrine (though practice is implied of course).  If inflammatory comments and ad hominem attacks can be avoided, it would greatly aid this inquirer in his seeking out Orthodoxy.

To reveal my "agenda": I was raised in a very conservative group of churches who did not differentiate between "orientation" and behavior, to have the orientation was to be guilty of the behavior.  More recently I have been part of the Episcopal Church whose position is rather well known, I'm sure.

I'm seeking to know what the Orthodox Church teaches and believes, particularly in theological, anthropological and doctrinal terms.

Thank you (he says nervously).
Title: Re:Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: The young fogey on October 08, 2002, 10:54:22 AM
My two kopecks: Here (http://www.angelfire.com/pa3/OldWorldBasic/Church.html#NoSodomy)
Title: Re:Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Orthodoc on October 08, 2002, 11:33:49 AM

For all the available sites regarding the Orthodox Catholic view on homosexuality access the following -

http://search.tserkovnost.org/index.php

Type in the word homosexuality in the 'search' block and point and click on 'go'.  This will bring up all the sites on the internet that deal with the issue of  'homosexuality' and there are quite a few.

Also you can use this tserkovnost search engine to search for Orthodox info on any subject matter.

Orthodoc
Title: Re:Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Asteriktos on October 08, 2002, 01:49:27 PM
The Orthodox Church believes that homosexual acts and thoughts are absolutely wrong (just like non-marital heterosexual acts and thoughts are absolutely wrong). Any sins in this regard have to be confessed and repented of, and it has to be admitted that they are wrong. It must also be confessed that homosexuality in itself is wrong: the orientation itself is wrong. An Orthodox Christian should never be caught using the excuse "Well God made me this way". In this way, the Priest does not forgive someone who thinks their homosexuality is ok, but he does forgive someone who admits that their orientation is not the way things should be and the Priest will give them communion. A homosexual, then, must constantly ask God to transform him and heal him; he must ask constantly in prayer for this.

To most westerners, this sounds downright cruel, I imagine. Yet this is the witness of Israel, the Church. There are many examples of someone being "born" a certain way, but nevertheless asking God repeatedly to change them. The Theotokos was born only because of such prayers and constant seeking of God's grace. Most people today would not look forward to a possible lifetime of asking God to forgive them for something-- but we all do that in Orthodoxy. Our entire lives, until our last breath, is a struggle against evil. There are no "I was born this way" cop-outs in Orthodoxy. Having said this, I hope it is seen that "homosexuals" are no less people (and certainly no less Christians) than lustful heterosexuals, gossiping teenagers, or anyone else. We all have our sins, and we all need to deal with our sins.

Orthodoxy doesn't care only for the outward man: it doesn't just want to stop the outward acts of sin (actions). Orthodoxy--and certainly God--wants to pull out the sinful root (orientation) from the person's soul, so that they may better seek and serve our Lord. Is this not what our Lord taught while he was here on earth? Murder is wrong, but so is its internal causes (e.g., hate). Adultery is wrong, but so is its internal causes (e.g., lust). It is not enough for the Christian to not commit adultery and murder: they must also try as best they can to take lust and hate from their soul. And that, even if society would say "you were born to look at other women, to explore with them, to experiment". If something is wrong, we need to take all the steps we can (sacraments, prayer, bible reading, asceticism, church attendance, and especially vigilance) to make it right.

It is agreed though, that this isn't a matter for public discussion regarding particular persons. This is an issue between the person in question, their Priest, and God. If we do start catching word of something like this (through indirect sources) we should "stop up our ears," we don't need to be hearing about other people's sins unless they are telling us about them because they are seeking help or because they are helping us with a struggle of a similar nature.


EDIT: Just wanted to say that the above, of course, is only my understanding, and I would never claim to be infallible, or even have a great degree of assurance that I am right. The above is just how I've understood the Orthodox stand on sin in general, and I here applied it to the subject at hand. I'm sorry if it was offensive; I pray if it offended, I was not wrong in what I said.

EDIT: As I thought more about it, I realise that a lot written in this post is confusing. For example, someone might think that I believe infertility to be a sin based on how I used the example of Anna and Joachim. I really only used it as an example of not giving up and seeking the overturning of the way someone had been "born" through God's grace. There are other things, I realise. Sorry for the confusion.

EDIT: Upon further reflection, I realise that this is something I should have kept my mouth shut about  :-  I posted it now though so I'll leave it up.
Title: Re:Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Hypo-Ortho on October 09, 2002, 11:12:59 PM
The following is from the OrthodoxyToday.org site  (I thought it appropriate to this discussion):

Dr. Charles Socarides argues that the unreflective acceptance of homosexual behavior by medical professionals has had devastating consequences for individuals and society.



The Erosion of Heterosexuality

Charles W. Socarides
Homosexuality cannot create a society or keep one going for very long. It operates against the cohesive elements of society. The sexes are driven in opposite directions, and no society can long endure when either the child is neglected or the sexes war with each other. Those who reinforce the disintegrating elements in our society will get no thanks from future generations.

A significant portion of society today holds the belief that homosexuality is a normal form of sexual behavior different from, but equal to, that of heterosexuality. Many religious leaders, public officials, educators, social and mental health agencies--including those at the highest level of government, departments of psychiatry and psychology, and mental health clinics--have been taken in by a wide spread sexual egalitarianism and by accusations of being undemocratic or prejudiced if they do not accept certain assertions that are thrust upon them, as if they were deprived of all intellectual capacity to judge and reason.

This revolutionary change in our sexual mores and customs has been ushered in by a single act of considerable consequence: The removal of homosexuality from the category of aberrancy by the American Psychiatric Association in 1973. It is, furthermore, a fateful consequence of our disregard for established psychoanalytic knowledge of human sexual behavior.

This act was naively perceived by many psychiatrists as the "simple" elimination of a scientific diagnosis in order to correct injustices. In reality, it created injustices for the homosexual and his family, as it belied the truth and prevented the homosexual from seeking and receiving help. At the social, group, and community level, it proved to be the opening phase of a two-phase sexual radicalization; the second phase being the raising of homosexuality to the level of an alternative lifestyle--an acceptable psychosexual institution--alongside heterosexuality as a prevailing norm of behavior.

The motivating force behind this movement was the wish to protect the homosexual against injustices and persecution. This could have been legitimately effected by the demand for equal rights for the homosexual, a demand arising from the humanitarian philosophy so deeply embedded in our humanistic science. Instead, the false step of removing homosexuality from our manual was substituted. This amounted to a full approval of homosexuality and an encouragement to aberrancy by those who should have known better, both in the scientific sense and in the sense of the social consequences of such removal.

To many American psychiatrists, this action remains a chilling reminder that if scientific principles are not fought for they can be lost--a disillusioning warning that unless we make no exceptions to science, we are subject to the snares of political factionalism and to the propagation of untruths to an unsuspecting and uninformed public, to the rest of the medical profession, and to the behavioral sciences.

The devastating clinical fallout from this decision was yet to follow. Those who would prefer to retain homosexuality as a valid diagnosis have been essentially silenced in lectures, meetings, and publications; a silencing that originates both within our association and from other sources as well. Political parties and religious leaders have been utilized to reinforce this silence. The press has been influenced in addition to the electronic media. Television and movies promote homosexuality as an alternative lifestyle and censor movies that might show homosexuality as a disorder. Homosexual sex education has entered our schools and colleges; pro-gay activists--homosexual or otherwise--portray their way of life as normal and as "American as apple pie," while intimidating those with different views.

In essence, this movement has accomplished what every other society, with rare exceptions, would have trembled to tamper with: a revision of the basic code and concept of life and biology, that men and women normally mate with those of the opposite sex and not with each other. This psychiatric nonsense and social recklessness bring with it many individual tragedies, as men and women who no longer appreciate their own appropriate sexual roles create confusion in the very young for generations to come. Gender identity disturbance is bound to increase, and more true homosexual deviations result as parents distort the maleness or femaleness of their infants and children.

Young men and women with relatively minor sexual fears are led with equanimity by some psychiatrists and non-medical counselors into a self despising pattern and lifestyle. Adolescents, nearly all of whom experience some degree of uncertainty as to sexual identity, are discouraged from assuming that one form of gender identity is preferable to another. Those persons who already have a homosexual problem are discouraged from finding their way out of self destructive fantasy, discouraged from learning to accept themselves as male or female.

The forces allied against heterosexuality are formidable and unrelenting. Charges of being "undemocratic," "cruel and inhuman," or "irresponsible, homophobic, and prejudiced," are leveled at those who would question the normality of homosexuality. These accusations are then reinforced by the media and motion pictures, and render the ordinary citizen who disapproves of such practices (as well as faint-hearted members of the psychiatric and psychological professions) mute before their onslaught.

The counteraction for such forces is the knowledge that heterosexuality has self-evident, adaptive value. Man is not only a sexual animal, but a care-bonding, group-bonding, and child-rearing animal. The male-female design is taught to the child from birth and culturally ingrained through the marital order. The male-female design is thus perpetually maintained and it is only overwhelming fear or man's false pride and misdirected individual enterprise that can disturb or divert it.

Dr. Charles W. Socarides is a Clinical Professor of Psychiatry at Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York City. He is president of the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH).

Copyright ¬ 1995-2002 NARTH A Non-Profit Psychoanalytic, Educational Organization Dedicated to Research, Therapy and Prevention of Homosexuality


The National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH), founded in 1992, is composed of psychoanalysts, psychoanalytically-informed psychologists, certified social workers, and other behavioral scientists, as well as laymen in fields such as law, religion, and education.

This data file/document is the sole property of NARTH, It may not be altered or edited in any way. It may be reproduced only in its entirety for circulation as "freeware," without charge. All reproductions of this data file and/or document must contain the copyright notice (i.e., Copyright (C) 1995-1997 NARTH) and this Copyright/Reproduction Limitations notice.


This data file/document may not be used without the permission of NARTH for resale or the enhancement of any other product sold.

Title: The Sin of Sodom
Post by: Ben on July 02, 2004, 11:03:23 PM
I have always been taught that the sin of Sodom was homosexuality, and whenever anyone talks about "sodomy" it is very clear what they refer to.

Well, I haven't read a lot of the Bible lately, so I thought I'd do some reading. I started with Genesis, and when I came to the story of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and started to think about the sin of Sodom and if it really was what I have always been told it was.

Genesis, Chapter 19 reads:


1 And the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of the city. And seeing them, he rose up and went to meet them: and worshipped prostrate to the ground.

2 And said: I beseech you, my lords, turn in to the house of your servant, and lodge there: wash your feet, and in the morning you shall go on your way. And they said: No, but we will abide in the street.

3 He pressed them very much to turn in unto him: and when they were come into his house, he made them a feast, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate:

4 But before they went to bed, the men of the city beset the house, both young and old, all the people together.

5 And they called Lot, and said to him: Where are the men that came in to thee at night? bring them out hither, that we may know them:

6 Lot went out to them, and shut the door after him, and said:

7 Do not so, I beseech you, my brethren, do not commit this evil.

8 I have two daughters who, as yet, have not known man; I will bring them out to you, and abuse you them as it shall please you, so that you do no evil to these men, because they are come in under the shadow of my roof.

9 But they said: Get thee back thither. And again: Thou camest in, said they, as a stranger, was it to be a judge? therefore we will afflict thee more than them. And they pressed very violently upon Lot: and they were even at the point of breaking open the doors.

10 And behold the men put out their hand, and drew in Lot unto them, and shut the door.

11 And them, that were without, they struck with blindness from the least to the greatest, so that they could not find the door.

12 And they said to Lot: Hast thou here any of thine? son in law, or sons, or daughters, all that are thine bring them out of this city:

13 For we will destroy this place, because their cry is grown loud before the Lord, who hath sent us to destroy them.

It is not clear what the mob wanted to:

- Gang rape the angels. This was a common technique by which men, particularly enemies,  were humiliated in that society.  

- Engage in consensual homosexual sex with the angels: This is the interpretation of the NIV translators. They wrote very clearly that the intent was to "have sex with them."

- Interrogate them. They may have been concerned that the strangers were spies who were sent to the city to determine its defensive fortifications. Sodom was a tiny fortress in the barren wasteland south of the Dead Sea. The only strangers that the people of Sodom ever saw were enemy tribes who wanted to destroy and take over their valuable fortress and the trade routes that it protected.

- Attack them physically.  

From the context, it is obvious that the mood of the mob was not friendly. Lot may have thought that they had sex on their minds, because he offered his virgin daughters as an attempt to please the mob. Some Christian interpreters maintain that all of the men in the city were present in the mob, and that all were homosexual. Lot would certainly have known this, for he was a resident of the city. If they were all gay, then he would hardly have made a gift of his daughters to be raped; the mob would have had no sexual interest in women.

However, this is all speculation. If Genesis was the only place in the Bible that mentioned the story of Sodom, I could easily agree that the sin of Sodom very well could have been Homosexuality, however the sin of Sodom is mentioned elsewhere.....

According to Isaiah (Chapter 1) the Sin of Sodom was a lack of Social Justice:

7 Your land is desolate, your cities are burnt with fire: your country strangers devour before your face, and it shall be desolate as when wasted by enemies.

8 And the daughter of Sion shall be left as a covert in a vineyard, and as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, and as a city that is laid waste.

9 Except the Lord of hosts had left us seed, we had been as Sodom, and we should have been like to Gomorrha.

10 Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom, give ear to the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrha.

11 To what purpose do you offer me the multitude of your victims, saith the Lord? I am full, I desire not holocausts of rams, and fat of fatlings, and blood of calves, and lambs, and buck goats.

12 When you came to appear before me, who required these things at your hands, that you should walk in my courts?

13 Offer sacrifice no more in vain: incense is an abomination to me. The new moons, and the sabbaths and other festivals I will not abide, your assemblies are wicked.

14 My soul hateth your new moons, and your solemnities: they are become troublesome to me, I am weary of bearing them.

15 And when you stretch forth your hands, I will turn away my eyes from you: and when you multiply prayer, I will not hear: for your hands are full of blood.

16 Wash yourselves, be clean, take away the evil of your devices from my eyes, cease to do perversely,

17 Learn to do well: seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge for the fatherless, defend the widow.

Ezekiel (Chapter 16) described the sin of Sodom as disregard for the poor:

49 Behold this was the iniquity of Sodom thy sister, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance, and the idleness of her, and of her daughters: and they did not put forth their hand to the needy, and the poor.

Whereas Jeremiah (Chapter 23) saw the sin of Sodom as general immorality:

14 And I have seen the likeness of adulterers, and the way of lying in the prophets of Jerusalem: and they strengthened the hands of the wicked, that no man should return from his evil doings, they are all become unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrha.

Deuteronomy Chapter 29 gives the reason why Sodom and the other cities were destroyed, homosexuality is not listed:

23 Burning it with brimstone, and the heat of salt, so that it cannot be sown any more, nor any green thing grow therein, after the example of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrha, Adama and Seboim, which the Lord destroyed in his wrath and indignation:

24 And all the nations shall say: Why hath the Lord done thus to this land? what meaneth this exceeding great heat of his wrath?

25 And they shall answer: Because they forsook the covenant of the Lord, which he made with their fathers, when he brought them out of the land of Egypt:

26 And they have served strange gods, and adored them, whom they knew not, and for whom they had not been assigned:

27 Therefore the wrath of the Lord was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this volume:

28 And he hath cast them out of their land, in anger and in wrath, and in very great indignation, and hath thrown them into a strange land, as it is seen this day.

Now the epistle of Jude does say "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" (7 KJV). But there is no hint of homosexuality: "strange flesh" hardly suggests homoeroticism. Some have stated that the Jewish tradition to which Jude alludes was a legend that the women of Sodom had intercourse with the angles.

It seems from my limited study on this issue, there isn't a scirptural basis for the idea of the sin of Sodom specificaly being homosexuality. I am not saying that Scripture isn't clear about homosexual acts being sinful, this is very obvious in St. Paul's Epistles and Leviticus, but honestly it doesn't seem as if the sin of Sodom was homosexuality.

Now, I have no idea what the Fathers had to say on the sin of Sodom, and I would be glad to know, and there could be some where in the Bible where homosexuality is said to be the sin of Sodom, if so please correct me!

Once again, I am not saying homosexuality is ok and isn't condemned in the Bible, I just don't think there is any reason to think the sin of Sodom was specificaly homosexuality, but I could be totally off, I welcome any and all corrections!
Title: Re:The Sin of Sodom
Post by: MsGuided on July 03, 2004, 12:12:46 AM

It is not clear what the mob wanted to:

- Gang rape the angels. This was a common technique by which men, particularly enemies,  were humiliated in that society.  

- Engage in consensual homosexual sex with the angels: This is the interpretation of the NIV translators. They wrote very clearly that the intent was to "have sex with them."

- Interrogate them. They may have been concerned that the strangers were spies who were sent to the city to determine its defensive fortifications. Sodom was a tiny fortress in the barren wasteland south of the Dead Sea. The only strangers that the people of Sodom ever saw were enemy tribes who wanted to destroy and take over their valuable fortress and the trade routes that it protected.

- Attack them physically.  


Well, it does say that the mob wanted to "know" them, so its basis must be some kinda sexual.  As for the rest, I'm usually not one to throw my own interpretation on what the Bible says, but perhaps there was just a general sinfullness of the people; their hostility obviously seen from the first mention of the mob trying to assault the angels.  

Otherwise, I dunno.  If I'm off-base, please do tell.
Title: Re:The Sin of Sodom
Post by: Ben on July 03, 2004, 12:40:11 AM
Well, it does say that the mob wanted to "know" them, so its basis must be some kinda sexual.  As for the rest, I'm usually not one to throw my own interpretation on what the Bible says, but perhaps there was just a general sinfullness of the people; their hostility obviously seen from the first mention of the mob trying to assault the angels.  

Otherwise, I dunno.  If I'm off-base, please do tell.

You are totally correct that it does say "know". I would be interested to know what the original Hebrew says. And I agree that the general wickedness and sinfullness is what provoked God to destroy Sodom and the other cities, and I highly doubt homosexuality was the main sin of Sodom or even a sin of sodom, but hey I could be off-base too!
Title: Re:The Sin of Sodom
Post by: icxn on July 03, 2004, 08:53:53 AM
St. John Chrysostom (Patrologia Graeca Vol. 54 pg. 400-...) explains that it was sexual perversion. Also in the epistle of Jude (1:7), “In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to fornication and sexual perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. “

Also, the root of this evil is gluttony and pride as prophet Jezekiel says: “Moreover, this was the sin of thy sister Sodom, pride: she and her daughters lived in pleasure, in fullness of bread and in abundance: this belonged to her and her daughters, and they helped not the hand of the poor and needy.” (Sept: Jez. 16:49)
Title: Re:The Sin of Sodom
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 03, 2004, 11:16:24 AM
From the Genesis passage, I think it is clear that the sin of Sodom was sexual immorality, particularly homosexuality.  This has also been the traditional interpretation of the Church, as well as of the Roman Catholics and other groups.  

Lot may have thought that they had sex on their minds, because he offered his virgin daughters as an attempt to please the mob. Some Christian interpreters maintain that all of the men in the city were present in the mob, and that all were homosexual. Lot would certainly have known this, for he was a resident of the city. If they were all gay, then he would hardly have made a gift of his daughters to be raped; the mob would have had no sexual interest in women.

I don't think they have to be gay.  They can be bisexual.  In the specific case cited in Genesis, they were after Lot's guests, but that doesn't mean they were gay and had no interest in women: they could just be perverts in general.  But because the case is specifically homosexual, this is how it has been interpreted.  

Quote
However, this is all speculation. If Genesis was the only place in the Bible that mentioned the story of Sodom, I could easily agree that the sin of Sodom very well could have been Homosexuality, however the sin of Sodom is mentioned elsewhere.....

According to Isaiah (Chapter 1) the Sin of Sodom was a lack of Social Justice:

Read the passage again carefully, especially v. 9.  It doesn't say that the sin of Sodom was a lack of social justice.  If I'm reading it correctly, it is comparing the situation with the people of Israel with Sodom, and how if the Lord hadn't shown mercy, they could've been as Sodom.  

Quote
Ezekiel (Chapter 16) described the sin of Sodom as disregard for the poor:

49 Behold this was the iniquity of Sodom thy sister, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance, and the idleness of her, and of her daughters: and they did not put forth their hand to the needy, and the poor.

Big chapter, but here's some more:

48 As I live, says the Lord GOD, your sister Sodom and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done. 49 Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, surfeit of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty, and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them, when I saw it. 51 Sama'ria has not committed half your sins; you have committed more abominations than they, and have made your sisters appear righteous by all the abominations which you have committed.

I don't think the passage from Ezekiel necessarily takes the traditional understanding of the sin of Sodom out of the picture.  We know from Leviticus that what is traditionally understood as the "sin of Sodom" is "an abomination".  

To what extent does a lavish life encourage/fuel sexual immorality?  That is an interesting tangent to consider in order to explore this passage.  

It is interesting that even in the Gospels, Our Lord uses Sodom and Gomorrah as an example, comparing the people of His time who wouldn't listen to Him to the Sodomites, saying the latter will have an easier time at the Day of Judgement than those of His time who had the great grace of hearing Him with their own ears, and seeing Him with their own eyes and still reject His message, the Gospel.  Perhaps the passage from Ezekiel is also being used in such a fashion.  "You're even worse than Sodom, because you've heard the word of the Lord, and you reject it", or something like that.    

Quote
Whereas Jeremiah (Chapter 23) saw the sin of Sodom as general immorality:

I don't think "general immorality" does not imply homosexuality/sexual perversion.  I would say Western civilisation is plagued by general immorality, and sexual immorality is a good part of that.  

Quote
Deuteronomy Chapter 29 gives the reason why Sodom and the other cities were destroyed, homosexuality is not listed:

Once again, I don't think this is talking about Sodom, but about Israel, Sodom being used as an example.  

Quote
Now the epistle of Jude does say "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" (7 KJV). But there is no hint of homosexuality: "strange flesh" hardly suggests homoeroticism. Some have stated that the Jewish tradition to which Jude alludes was a legend that the women of Sodom had intercourse with the angles.

How come "strange flesh" cannot suggest homoeroticism?  Men aren't equipped for sexual intercourse with other men, except by a perverted interpretation of how sex works (and I will refrain from being graphic, but I think you know what I'm getting at).  "Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind"...what is not "strange" about that?  I notice that you quoted from the KJV (don't know if your other citations are from that version).  There are words in there which don't have the same meaning now that they had then, even if it looks like the same word.  Perhaps "strange" means something else in this context?  Have you looked at other translations of this passage?  For instance, the RSV translates it as "unnatural lust".
Title: Re:The Sin of Sodom
Post by: Augustine on July 03, 2004, 12:05:22 PM
Quote
I don't think they have to be gay.  They can be bisexual.  In the specific case cited in Genesis, they were after Lot's guests, but that doesn't mean they were gay and had no interest in women: they could just be perverts in general.  But because the case is specifically homosexual, this is how it has been interpreted.

I think the whole discussion of "gay" or "straight" or "bisexual" in general is misguided, but particularly so in the discussion of what happened in Sodom.

Buggery is not a consequence of an ingrained sexual identity that should be treated (or spoken about) as a third gender.   While it is true that there are those who have this as a vice (bad habit) and also suffer from varying degrees of misogyny and/or gynophobia, it's also obvious that in modern times there is quite a lot of pressure within the so called "gay-community" to force those struggling with this vice into a straight jacket of artificial identity ("you are gay"), when the truth is their situation (particularly if it's someone still confused about "sexual identity" issues) is probably not that simple.

Looking at the ancient historical record of many civilizations, it appears that in some places the popularity of buggery was such that it exceeded (proportionately) the ridiculous/unfounded statistic of the homosexualist-activist groups of "10%" (all of which is allegedly the result of genetics/heredity, btw.)  It is also quite clear that in most of those situations, that the men indulging in such things would be classified by our modern definitions as "bisexual".

The truth of course, is that it's just a question of sensuality run amock, with a godless lack of abhorence for sin.  One need only look in the prison system in the United States to see this.

Title: Re:The Sin of Sodom
Post by: Donna Rose on July 03, 2004, 12:37:20 PM
Quote
I don't think they have to be gay.  They can be bisexual.


Quote
I think the whole discussion of "gay" or "straight" or "bisexual" in general is misguided, but particularly so in the discussion of what happened in Sodom.

Buggery is not a consequence of an ingrained sexual identity that should be treated (or spoken about) as a third gender.  While it is true that there are those who have this as a vice (bad habit) and also suffer from varying degrees of misogyny and/or gynophobia, it's also obvious that in modern times there is quite a lot of pressure within the so called "gay-community" to force those struggling with this vice into a straight jacket of artificial identity ("you are gay"), when the truth is their situation (particularly if it's someone still confused about "sexual identity" issues) is probably not that simple.

I *think* what Mor was getting at is simply that they were having every perverted kind of sex available, with both men and women. The cultural identity that is now attached to the term "bisexual" or any of the terms is not what is being discussed (I don't think). Furthermore, the literal meaning of the word "bisexual," if you just look at the word, is probably something to the effect of "sexually desiring (something which alone is a sin, no matter who the object is) 2 ("bi") sexes," not the modern definition that involves emotions and all of that sexual psychological mumbo jumbo.

Mor, do correct me if I'v misinterpreted what you said. :)
Title: Re:The Sin of Sodom
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 03, 2004, 12:54:55 PM
I don't disagree with anyone here.  I agree with Augustine's view that "gay" and "bisexual" as we understand them are not things that can be applied to a discussion about Sodom and had some hesitancy to use those terms in my post, but figured I'd stick with the terms Ben was using, thinking it'd be clearer.  As far as how I used them, I used them specifically with their sexual meanings in mind (e.g., bisexual = someone who engages in sexual relations of some sort with both sexes).  

I don't think we need to appeal to the US prison system in order to see sensuality run amock with a godless lack of abhorrence for sin, unless there is something I'm missing.  It's pretty active in "free" Western societies, which I think are the closest modern equivalent to Sodom and Gomorrah in some respects, and which I had in mind when I brought up Western civilisation in my earlier post.
Title: Re:The Sin of Sodom
Post by: gregory2 on July 03, 2004, 08:10:38 PM
Also pertaining to this passage, does anyone have an idea on why Lot offered his virgin daughters to the mob?  I find this disgusting, and it sounds horrendous.  How is offering your virgin daughters as a form of sexual appeasement any better than the sin of sodomy?  It seems so cowardly.... i.e., "don't do anything to me or the men here, but feel free to rape my daughters."  I just find that foul.

Am I totally misinterpreting this?  I've never found an explanation of this one, and am wondering if anyone else ever has.  I bet this passage would be even tougher for me if I had daughters of my own.
Title: Re:The Sin of Sodom
Post by: Arystarcus on July 03, 2004, 08:49:10 PM
Quote
Also pertaining to this passage, does anyone have an idea on why Lot offered his virgin daughters to the mob?  I find this disgusting, and it sounds horrendous.  How is offering your virgin daughters as a form of sexual appeasement any better than the sin of sodomy?  It seems so cowardly.... i.e., "don't do anything to me or the men here, but feel free to rape my daughters."  I just find that foul.

I'm glad you brought this up Gregory, because I have always wondered about this myself and felt the exact same way as you.

Can anyone provide some insight on this?

In Christ,
Aaron
Title: Re:The Sin of Sodom
Post by: Ben on July 03, 2004, 11:42:58 PM
Thank you everyone for your imput!

I agree with Gregory and Arystarcus, I have always thought that the fact Lot offered his Virgin daughters to be raped by the men was horrid, and just as bad as "sodomy". I am at a loss how Lot could chastize the crowd for wanting the angels, but at the same time offer his daughters to them!
Title: Re:The Sin of Sodom
Post by: Fr. David on July 04, 2004, 12:58:36 AM
I am at a loss how Lot could chastize the crowd for wanting the angels, but at the same time offer his daughters to them!

Hey, Lot was no saint himself at the time -- relatively speaking, yes, he was more morally aware than those around him, but he did choose to live there in the first place!

Add the fact that, in those days, daughters (and women in general) were seen as much less valuable/important...basically, they were property.  Perhaps, in Lot's mind, he was choosing the "lesser of two evils," as he knew the men were from God and just did the first thing that came to his mind.

So...there's no excuse for what he did -- nowhere in Scripture or the Fathers, I don't think, provides as much -- yet it could just be an explanation...trying to do the right thing in a very, very wrong way.
Title: Re:The Sin of Sodom
Post by: ambrosemzv on July 04, 2004, 04:34:53 PM
You are totally correct that it does say "know". I would be interested to know what the original Hebrew says.

The Hebrew does not really contain many surprises, or much that would lend toward a different translation than those cited:

19:5:  "Wayyikra'u 'el-Lot wayyo'mru l'o, ''Ayyeh ha 'anashim 'asher-b'ou 'eleykha?  Hotsiim 'eleynu wned`ah 'otam.'"

The verb, "ned`ah," is the nifal form of ydh, that is, a refexive construction of the verb most frequently translated as "to know."  It is, of course, the same verb used throughout the geneologies in Genesis to indicate sexual intercourse.  It does not have the sense of "Getting to know you," in a merely casual way.  :-";"xx
Title: Re:The Sin of Sodom
Post by: Ben on July 06, 2004, 01:12:47 AM
Hmmm would the be the same "know" used in the Gospels regarding Mary and Joseph? If so, that pretty much disproves Mary's perpetual Virginity.
Title: Re:The Sin of Sodom
Post by: erracht on July 06, 2004, 04:52:41 AM
Ben, it has been stated elsewhere that when Matthew says Joseph "knew her not until she gave birth" does not imply he "knew her" afterward.
Title: Re:The Sin of Sodom
Post by: ambrosemzv on July 06, 2004, 10:42:52 AM
Right.  Matthew 1:24 states that Joseph "ouk eginosken aftin eos ou eteken yion . . .," ("did not know her [until] she had born a son").  Ginosko is used here as an equivalent to the Hebrew ydh, just as it is consistently used in place of ydh in the LXX translation of Genesis, in places where it clearly has to do with sexual intercourse (e.g., Gen 4:1, 17).

But, as Errach reminds us, the Greek, eos, denotes duration, but does not imply anything about subsequent events, unlike English "until."  The sentence could as well be translated, "[Joseph] did not know her during the period leading up to her bearing a son."  The emphasis, then, being on excluding any possibility of Joseph's being the genetic father, but implying nothing about whether sexual relations occurred after that period.
Title: Re:The Sin of Sodom
Post by: Fr. David on July 06, 2004, 07:30:15 PM
To "piggyback" on what ambrosemzv said:

Other uses of eos ("until") in the NT and Septuagint:

When King David dances in the street and his wife (whose name escapes me) berates him, she is cursed by God, and the Scripture says she "had no children eos the day of her death."  Obviously she didn't have kids on her deathbed.

Christ said in St. Matt's gospel that He'd be with us eos the end of the age...will He not be with us after that?

St. Paul encourages *someone* he writes to (can you tell I'm too lazy to go look these up?) to continue in prayer and reading Scripture eos he comes to see him/them.  He obviously wouldn't want them to stop after he came.

So Mary and Joseph didn't know each other eos Christ came...we can see this does NOT mean they did so afterwards.
Title: Re:The Sin of Sodom
Post by: erracht on July 08, 2004, 06:47:47 AM
Or to explain further, someone sent me this:

...The Fathers have explained beyond any doubt that "until" in the Greek, as used in this passage, does NOT necessarily imply that Joseph knew her *after* the birth of Christ, as some wrongly suggest. The same word is used, for example, in the verse "Lo, I am with you always, even until the end of the age."  Are we to understand this to say that Christ will be with us *until* the end of the age, but that He will leave us *after* the end of the age?  Certainly not!

Eloquently put. The Theotokos' perpetual virginity has been essentially put down as dogma, has been explained by the Fathers and should, I suppose, be a non-negotiable for Orthodox belief.
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Asteriktos on June 20, 2006, 09:53:37 PM
I apologize for, and take back, everything I said on this thread. What an idiot I was! But you already knew that ;)
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Matthew777 on June 20, 2006, 10:23:12 PM
I think that, as Christians, we should be more concerned with social justice than what people do with their wee-wees.

Peace.
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: GiC on June 20, 2006, 10:26:09 PM
I think that, as Christians, we should be more concerned with social justice than what people do with their wee-wees.

You dont know how disturbing it is to hear a grown man refer to that particular part of anatomy as a, and I quote, 'wee-wee.'
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: sdcheung on June 20, 2006, 10:28:51 PM
You dont know how disturbing it is to hear a grown man refer to that particular part of anatomy as a, and I quote, 'wee-wee.'

LOL..
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Matthew777 on June 21, 2006, 12:39:10 AM
You dont know how disturbing it is to hear a grown man refer to that particular part of anatomy as a, and I quote, 'wee-wee.'

It's even more disturbing that moral extremists would forbid consenting adults from deciding for themselves what to do in their own bedrooms.

Peace.
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Truth_or_Bust on June 21, 2006, 11:11:36 AM
Greetings in Christ M777,
Do you not hold the Bible and the Father's teachings against homosexuality as sinful or am I misunderstanding your statement?  Please explain your comment in light of the above context for this slow to understand sinner.

God Bless,
T
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: MicahJohn on June 21, 2006, 11:18:33 AM
I think that, as Christians, we should be more concerned with social justice than what people do with their wee-wees.

Peace.

No, I'm afraid the Church is not to be concerned primarily with social justice at all.  That is one of the huge mistakes of our time, thinking that we can solve our own problems and become better by working on social justice issues.  The problem is not with society!  That is merely the symptom of the real problem which is deep within our souls.  Change must be at the core of our individual hearts, not in social matters.  It is a grave deception.  We cannot change the world unless we change ourselves first, and God is the prime mover toward that end.  Feeding the hungry, caring for the poor, being compassionate and all manner of other social issues and goals can only come after this.  It's what the Church calls "giving alms" and it is an outgrowth of spiritual maturity and struggle, something we do as we are already being changed by Grace.  It is not our primary goal.

Sorry, didn't mean to offend but that's a pet peeve of mine.
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: chrisb on June 21, 2006, 11:37:52 AM
It's even more disturbing that moral extremists would forbid consenting adults from deciding for themselves what to do in their own bedrooms.

Peace.

I can appreciate this point of view but unfortunately what one does in private has an effect on what one does in public. I believe this was the whole point Jesus was making when he articulated 'sin' as having it's source within our 'thoughts' and not merely the domain of our 'actions'.

Honestly I believe the Buddhists do a better job of articulating this but the model is quite clear in Christianity as well. There are actions which are simply harmful to society and society is more than a bunch of individuals. One could make the argument that honestly there are no individual actions at all. We are all interdependent with one another and our environment. Privacy is a lack of recognizing this interdependence over the desires of the individual but like I said Buddhism does a much better job making this case than Christianity.

Peace.
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Serbian Patriot on June 21, 2006, 05:43:47 PM
I think that, as Christians, we should be more concerned with social justice than what people do with their wee-wees.

Peace.
Speak for yourself, dont have the arrogance to tell Christians what they should be concerned about. You know full well Christians have a moral code which is very concerned with what people do with their 'wee-wees'.  You seem to be an apologist for sinful behaviour based on your own innovative liberal philosophy.  Dont confuse this with Christian morality.
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Serbian Patriot on June 21, 2006, 05:45:06 PM
No, I'm afraid the Church is not to be concerned primarily with social justice at all.ÂÂ  That is one of the huge mistakes of our time, thinking that we can solve our own problems and become better by working on social justice issues.ÂÂ  The problem is not with society!ÂÂ  That is merely the symptom of the real problem which is deep within our souls.ÂÂ  Change must be at the core of our individual hearts, not in social matters.ÂÂ  It is a grave deception.ÂÂ  We cannot change the world unless we change ourselves first, and God is the prime mover toward that end.ÂÂ  Feeding the hungry, caring for the poor, being compassionate and all manner of other social issues and goals can only come after this.ÂÂ  It's what the Church calls "giving alms" and it is an outgrowth of spiritual maturity and struggle, something we do as we are already being changed by Grace.ÂÂ  It is not our primary goal.

Sorry, didn't mean to offend but that's a pet peeve of mine.
Spot on!
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Νεκτάριος on June 21, 2006, 06:31:26 PM
Quote
You know full well Christians have a moral code which is very concerned with what people do with their 'wee-wees'.

Is Christianity concerned with what "people" do or what an individual does?  Or more precisely, isn't one's own chastity what matters opposed to keeping track of others?
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Matthew777 on June 21, 2006, 06:45:04 PM
Greetings in Christ M777,
Do you not hold the Bible and the Father's teachings against homosexuality as sinful or am I misunderstanding your statement?ÂÂ  Please explain your comment in light of the above context for this slow to understand sinner.

God Bless,
T

Homosexuality is no different from any other sin, it is something that must be confessed rather than falsely accepted within the Church. But in terms of the world at large, however, we must recognize that we do live in a secular society and that the Church nor the state has any power to enforce Biblical law.

Peace.
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Matthew777 on June 21, 2006, 06:46:55 PM
No, I'm afraid the Church is not to be concerned primarily with social justice at all.ÂÂ

Have you read the Beatitudes? I understand your point but I think we can do both at the same time, and that they both help the other.

Peace.
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Matthew777 on June 21, 2006, 06:49:42 PM
You seem to be an apologist for sinful behaviour based on your own innovative liberal philosophy.ÂÂ  

What innovative liberal philosophy do you speak of?
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: sdcheung on June 21, 2006, 06:50:13 PM
Have you read the Beatitudes?

Peace.
You mean this?


(The Beatitudes)
3rd Antiphon

In Thy kingdom remember us, O Lord, * when Thou comest in Thy kingdom.
Blessed are the poor in spirit, * for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
           [In 12 verses]
Blessed are they that mourn, * for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek, * for they shall inherit the earth.
           [In 10 verses]
Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness, * for they shall be filled.
Blessed are the merciful, * for they shall obtain mercy.
           [In 8 verses]
Blessed are the pure in heart, * for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, * for they shall be called the sons of God.
           [In 6 verses]
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake, * for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, * and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad, * for great is your reward in the heavens.
Glory to the Father, * and to the Son, * and to the Holy Spirit.
Both now and ever, * and unto the ages of ages.  Amen.
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Matthew777 on June 21, 2006, 06:53:11 PM
Yes, exactly. The heart of the Christian faith is the Sermon on the Mount, it's an instruction of what to do more than what not to do.
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Sloga on June 21, 2006, 07:01:38 PM
[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=48.msg125204#msg125204 date=1150929086]
Is Christianity concerned with what "people" do or what an individual does?ÂÂ  Or more precisely, isn't one's own chastity what matters opposed to keeping track of others?
[/quote]

I used to say "Hey, if their not bothering me directly, I dont care." But Lord, they are trying to FORCE homosexuality on people these days. Just a week ago or so, I was sitting waiting for the rain to come, and across from me were two gay men making out. Ok I guess it is discrminative because if it were a heterosexual couple, It wouldnt bother me as much. But my point is that this "sin" is becoming normal today. When my kids are growing up, they will be offered the "option" to like guys or girls. My kid will be heterosexual, but seeing as how both orientations are normal by society, he could chose the genetically/biologically wrong one. Now that scares me.
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Νεκτάριος on June 21, 2006, 07:26:52 PM
Quote
I used to say "Hey, if their not bothering me directly, I dont care." But Lord, they are trying to FORCE homosexuality on people these days. Just a week ago or so, I was sitting waiting for the rain to come, and across from me were two gay men making out. Ok I guess it is discrminative because if it were a heterosexual couple, It wouldnt bother me as much. But my point is that this "sin" is becoming normal today. When my kids are growing up, they will be offered the "option" to like guys or girls. My kid will be heterosexual, but seeing as how both orientations are normal by society, he could chose the genetically/biologically wrong one. Now that scares me.

I think in both the teachings of Elder Paisios the Athonite and Saint Silouan the Athonite the point is made that one must first heal himself, as a member of the Church in order to benefit the church as a whole and even beyond the Church.  While loudly proclaiming the Orthodox belief on homosexuality and that they are sinners may inspire a sense of righteousness, it will also likely lead to their complete alienation from Christianity.  I'm not saying that we should sell out our beliefs, only that we'll more easily show others the love of Christ with honey rather than vinegar. 

Here is a quote from Elder Amphilochios from Patmos (the metropolitan in your Church bearing that name was named after him at his tonsuring by Fr. Justin Popović):

"The words of preachers today have the effect of throwing turpentine on a fire.  The poor and unlettered laity have been abandoned and now don't listen.  They need to see good workds and lives of Christian love... they need to feel their brother is co-suffering in their pain.  Only through love for them and through philanthropic works will we manage to bring our brethren close to Christ." 
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Sloga on June 21, 2006, 08:22:27 PM
[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=48.msg125216#msg125216 date=1150932412]
only that we'll more easily show others the love of Christ with honey rather than vinegar.ÂÂ  
[/quote]

Quote
Or more precisely, isn't one's own chastity what matters opposed to keeping track of others?


In an honest way, those two acts cannot be done at the same time perfectly. You need to balance them. How can I help a sinner when my sins alone need help?

Likewise, theoretically, I have a hard time worrying about my sins, telling myself to not steal, lie and even involve myself in Sodomy, but then to extend my hand to one who does, would sort of be hypocritical towards myself. Although I DO understand that by what you said, it does not mean to encourage their acts, but to love them, I need to condome those acts at the same time.

But generally, I do agree with you. I think it's hard to deal with this issue, particularily the ones deeply and directly involved, but society has just given up and let them do their thing, thinking it wont backfire in the future, which I think is a grave mistake.
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: DavidH on June 21, 2006, 08:25:25 PM
 ÃƒÆ’‚  Isn't disagreeing over whether to influence society for Christ and the Church vs. doing all one can to become more like Christ in daily living unnecesarily making distinctions? This doesn't seem to be an either/or issue within Orthodoxy but a both/and. It is like when Christ said,"These things you ought to have done without leaving the other undone........"

Rd. David
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Serbian Patriot on June 22, 2006, 06:07:17 AM
[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=48.msg125204#msg125204 date=1150929086]
Is Christianity concerned with what "people" do or what an individual does?ÂÂ  Or more precisely, isn't one's own chastity what matters opposed to keeping track of others?
[/quote]
I was referring to the Orthodox view of how an individual should behave primarily.  I just found it ridiculous that Matthew should claim that Christians should have no view on controlling their bodily urges.
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Serbian Patriot on June 22, 2006, 06:19:24 AM
What innovative liberal philosophy do you speak of?
The one where you claim that Christianity is 'an instruction of what to do more than what not to do'.  This is just meaningless verbal acrobatics.  If you are not doing something, such as commiting sin, this also could be phrased as doing something, ie avoiding temptation. 
Secondly this thread is to with the Orthodox Christian position on homosexuality.  To claim that there is no Christian position on what 'people do with their wee wees' is ludicrous. 
 
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: SouthSerb99 on June 22, 2006, 08:56:00 AM
I think the term "wee wee" has shown up way to many times in this thread.ÂÂ  I ask that heretofore, it be referred to as "pee pee", as I hope to teach my 11 month old.ÂÂ  :)
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Anastasios on June 22, 2006, 10:00:05 AM
Should we split this off and put it in family forum? ;)
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: calligraphqueen on June 22, 2006, 04:16:00 PM
I too have a hard time extending my hand towards people that practice this behavior.  In truth, it is repugnant and bizarre and alien to hetero folks.  there is a barrier between us because so many focus points are the polar opposite of our own.
How to spend my days teaching my children truth, and to protect them from all sexual deviance while I can-then reach out to those willingly practicing it?  I spend so much time in protective mode, or defense mode that I cannot shift gears very well.  And since I spend so much time deflecting or filtering homosexual propaganda, I resent those that try to foist it upon my young ones.  Where is the line here?  Church fathers were not inundated by things as seemingly innocuous as Disney movies, or Saturday cartoons with not so subtle overtones. Their children were not at government run institutions being forced to take sexual reorientation classes if they listed faith on their registration.  I kind of end up feeling hijacked a lot of the time, not very forgiving-eh?
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Matthew777 on June 22, 2006, 04:46:51 PM
To claim that there is no Christian position on what 'people do with their wee wees' is ludicrous.ÂÂ  
Homosexuality is no different from any other sin, it is something that must be confessed rather than falsely accepted within the Church. But in terms of the world at large, however, we must recognize that we do live in a secular society and that the Church nor the state has any power to enforce Biblical law.

Peace.
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Serbian Patriot on June 22, 2006, 05:23:26 PM
Homosexuality is no different from any other sin, it is something that must be confessed rather than falsely accepted within the Church.
Well theres a discrepancy between that and your previous statement:
I think that, as Christians, we should be more concerned with social justice than what people do with their wee-wees.


But in terms of the world at large, however, we must recognize that we do live in a secular society and that the Church nor the state has any power to enforce Biblical law.
This is a thread about the Church position, why are you bringing up secular and man made laws?  As far as I can see no one has advocated the following:
It's even more disturbing that moral extremists would forbid consenting adults from deciding for themselves what to do in their own bedrooms.
Who on earth has suggested this?  Why the attempt to minimise relevant discussion on the Church view by defending homosexuals from laws that noone has advocated?


Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Serbian Patriot on June 22, 2006, 05:56:33 PM
@Matthew
Ive just noticed that yet again you say something meaningless then when it is refuted you ignore it.  It is becoming mildly annoying to say the least.  What happened to your statement (the heart of the Christian faith is the Sermon on the Mount, it's an instruction of what to do more than what not to do)?  Are you going to defend it from my reply or not?
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Anastasios on June 22, 2006, 06:29:09 PM
Quote
I too have a hard time extending my hand towards people that practice this behavior.  In truth, it is repugnant and bizarre and alien to hetero folks.  there is a barrier between us because so many focus points are the polar opposite of our own.

That may be how you feel but I don't share the sentiment.  I am a happily married "hetro folk" but I have no problem relating to gay people. I see their sin as a sin and my sins as sins.  I don't think about what they do in private.  What does bother me is overly effeminant people who get in your face, but not just plain vanilla gay people like some neighbors I once had.  They were very friendly and nice people and I must say much more "Christian" than many of our "Christian" neighbors who condemned them all day long.  And even though over hyped up effeminacy bothers me, that doesn't stop me from talking to someone like that.  One time I was on a study abroad trip and I roomed with a gay guy as we were the last pick in the draw.  I can say after six weeks with him--he was a caring, spiritual person versus some of the people on the trip who actually tried as best as they could to exploit the natives financially, etc--he said to me that "you are the only Christian I have met who actually lives it."  Now, when asked, I consistently told him I thought homosexuality is sinful and his behavior is unacceptable.  I didn't cross that line. But I established a real relationship with him which is the only way to convert anyone.

I think that the sentiment expressed, namely that we need to wall ourselves off and then we wonder how then can we reach out to people is off the mark because how can I reach out to people shaking up when I am trying to teach my kids about marriage, or how can I reach out to the guy who likes to kick animals down the street from me, or the lady who screams at any kids that walk by her lawn, etc.? In my neighborhood there are all these types of people--I can't hide from it. Why would I focus on one type of sin over another?  I try to be loving to everyone.  Sometimes it doesn't work as I am not a saint, though.  My point is though that it is precisely to the people we abhor that we are probably supposed to be reaching out.

Anastasios
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Νεκτάριος on June 22, 2006, 07:05:52 PM
Quote
I too have a hard time extending my hand towards people that practice this behavior.  In truth, it is repugnant and bizarre and alien to hetero folks.  there is a barrier between us because so many focus points are the polar opposite of our own.

Luke 10:25-37
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour? And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him, And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee. Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Carpatho Russian on June 22, 2006, 08:40:10 PM
Anastasios and Nektarios (sorry, no Greek fonts here!) well said.

For the rest, I do have a rhetorical question (s).  Why does it seem that at least once a month there is a post on the evilness or sinfulness of homosexuality?  Is there something lurking in the subconscious minds of posters?  ???

To take a line from Shakespeare's Hamlet, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks!" 
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Jesus7serb on June 22, 2006, 10:46:25 PM
Orhtodox christians are true followers of christ and the holy bible.

The word of God is clear when it comes to homosexuality and orhtodx chritians do not question Gods law:

Read below,for the position of orthodoxy on gays/lesbians:

'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.'
(Leviticus 18:22)

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their
women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way
the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed
with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men,
and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
(Romans 1:26-27)

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor
adulterers nor male prostitutes nor HOMOSEXUAL offenders nor thieves
nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit
the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Sloga on June 23, 2006, 01:29:07 AM
But I established a real relationship with him which is the only way to convert anyone.

And did he end up converting? I agree with your "relationship = convert" formula, but I dont think you can successfully get a homosexual to convert to Orthodoxy. The sexual orientation (I'm ever so tempted to say "mental disorder", but I feer someone may disagree") must be "fixed" first. Unfortunately, personally I don't see very many people changing their orientation, and the ones that do, who knows if they really did it. But thats all different if my second question is answered a certain way ::)

Quote
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor
adulterers nor male prostitutes nor HOMOSEXUAL offenders nor thieves
nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit
the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

What if you are a homosexual but dont act on it? What if you are a Homosexual but get married to a women and have kids? What if you are Bi-sexual? Is it just the act of sodomy or is it the actual attractiveness to the same sex thats a sin? I never really thought about that.....
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Matthew777 on June 23, 2006, 04:31:52 AM
If faith were only defined by what we abstain from, then how could it matter what we actually do?  Does it matter more to perform good works than it is to avoid sin? I'm not sure, but I think that both must be taken seriously. All too often, people who are willing to point the finger at a certain group are not doing their part to make a better world themselves.

Peace.
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Anastasios on June 23, 2006, 09:17:53 AM
Quote
And did he end up converting? I agree with your "relationship = convert" formula, but I dont think you can successfully get a homosexual to convert to Orthodoxy. The sexual orientation (I'm ever so tempted to say "mental disorder", but I feer someone may disagree") must be "fixed" first. Unfortunately, personally I don't see very many people changing their orientation, and the ones that do, who knows if they really did it. But thats all different if my second question is answered a certain way 

I lost contact with him, but you should know we have formerly active homosexuals who converted to Orthodoxy here on this very board, my friend.

The sin is the act.  The attraction is a passion just like gluttony, straight lust, etc.  It often takes a lifetime to conquer these and other passions.  The pastoral approach is to get the inquierer to stop all activity, give them lots of support, and baptise/chrismate them when they have stopped the sin, but not the thought of it, as that takes a long time of confessing and communing. They should of course like all of us begin immediately to try and stop fantasies, etc.  This is the same advice given to a straight fornicator converting.

Anastasios
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Sloga on June 23, 2006, 03:05:27 PM
I lost contact with him, but you should know we have formerly active homosexuals who converted to Orthodoxy here on this very board, my friend.

First, If i have or will offend anyone that may be a "former" or curent homosexual, forgive me I have nothing against you and my thoughts on homosexuality have nothign to do with people specifically or personally. It never came to my attention that there may be people on this forum in this situation. Forgive my stupidity.

Second, by formerly active, do you mean people have have stopped the act of homosexuality, or alltogether have been "cured"?

Forgive me
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Anastasios on June 23, 2006, 03:25:09 PM
Quote
Second, by formerly active, do you mean people have have stopped the act of homosexuality, or alltogether have been "cured"?

Given your circumstances (age, cultural upbringing), etc., I don't think anyone faults you for not knowing.  I for one am glad that you embrace learnign things so openly.

By formerly active, I mean, who have made a decision to stop all acts of fornication.  Whether they are "cured" is something they would best answer for themselves.  I have been informed that there are homosexual persons who have "become straight" through Orthodoxy but it seems to me this is the exception: that the damage of homosexuality runs deep and is something that is struggled with--for life.  In many cases, "cure" means to stop not only the action but also the fantasy and lust--but to "become straight" may never be possible nor even advisable, as all persons are subject to relapse of their sins, and what would you say to the woman who married a formerly active homosexual who relapses after say 20 years? It's the same thing with very active fornicators--is it advisable to marry someone who has had multiple, multiple sexual encounters over years? It may not be. But God can "cure" anyone he wants and so I leave that up to the individual and his or her confessor to sort out. What's important to me is abstinence and a fight against the passions.  I see homosexuality as like alcoholism: it may or may not be genetic, it may be a combination of many factors, but very rarely does someone recover "fully."  However, as an Orthodox, I do believe such is theoretically possible, but not in every case. God will allow various levels of repentence and grace based on the person and his plan for them.

These are just my thoughts based on experience.  I reject both extremes: namely that one is born homosexual, thus it is natural, and the Church should change; and the other, that it is something that ALWAYS with enough prayer can and must be "overcome" and the person can and should become straight and have a "normal" life, while accepting the possibility that this may happen if God wills it.  Perhaps the best solution is monasticism or some form of ministry that does not require marriage.

Anastasios
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: ozgeorge on June 23, 2006, 05:07:18 PM
Perhaps the best solution is monasticism or some form of ministry that does not require marriage.
Monasticism is like marriage in many respects, and I would not think it is a good choice for same-sex attracted persons, especially since it places one in close community with persons of the same sex (the object of attraction). Contrary to popular opinion, our spiritual strength and ability to supress our evil desires and inclinations actually weaken (along with their physical counterparts) as we get older....
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Sloga on June 24, 2006, 12:10:38 AM
Given your circumstances (age, cultural upbringing), etc., I don't think anyone faults you for not knowing.ÂÂ  I for one am glad that you embrace learnign things so openly.

By formerly active, I mean, who have made a decision to stop all acts of fornication.ÂÂ  Whether they are "cured" is something they would best answer for themselves.ÂÂ  I have been informed that there are homosexual persons who have "become straight" through Orthodoxy but it seems to me this is the exception: that the damage of homosexuality runs deep and is something that is struggled with--for life.ÂÂ  In many cases, "cure" means to stop not only the action but also the fantasy and lust--but to "become straight" may never be possible nor even advisable, as all persons are subject to relapse of their sins, and what would you say to the woman who married a formerly active homosexual who relapses after say 20 years? It's the same thing with very active fornicators--is it advisable to marry someone who has had multiple, multiple sexual encounters over years? It may not be. But God can "cure" anyone he wants and so I leave that up to the individual and his or her confessor to sort out. What's important to me is abstinence and a fight against the passions.ÂÂ  I see homosexuality as like alcoholism: it may or may not be genetic, it may be a combination of many factors, but very rarely does someone recover "fully."ÂÂ  However, as an Orthodox, I do believe such is theoretically possible, but not in every case. God will allow various levels of repentence and grace based on the person and his plan for them.

These are just my thoughts based on experience.ÂÂ  I reject both extremes: namely that one is born homosexual, thus it is natural, and the Church should change; and the other, that it is something that ALWAYS with enough prayer can and must be "overcome" and the person can and should become straight and have a "normal" life, while accepting the possibility that this may happen if God wills it.ÂÂ  Perhaps the best solution is monasticism or some form of ministry that does not require marriage.

Anastasios

Thank you brother, that was very insightful. I agree with your neither extremeity belief also, which is why I asked if it was the actions or the actual feelings that were stopped.

As for the marriage, I believe it is ok to give them some sort of financial agreement together, but not an offical marriage.

Quote
Contrary to popular opinion, our spiritual strength and ability to supress our evil desires and inclinations actually weaken (along with their physical counterparts) as we get older....

I believe it is a parabolic relationship...our spiritual strength begins weak as we are "finding" ourselves, but  during the midlife (perhaps mid 30s?), your spiritual strength is at its heighest and then eventually begins to come back down.
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Anastasios on June 24, 2006, 12:12:43 AM
Monasticism is like marriage in many respects, and I would not think it is a good choice for same-sex attracted persons, especially since it places one in close community with persons of the same sex (the object of attraction). Contrary to popular opinion, our spiritual strength and ability to supress our evil desires and inclinations actually weaken (along with their physical counterparts) as we get older....

I thought about that before I wrote it but the example of several saints in the lives of the desert fathers who overcame what was apparently same-sex lust in conjunction with some monks I have met who were homosexuals and are now chaste caused me to offer it as an option, although possibly as you say not for everyone.

Anastasios
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Cephas on June 24, 2006, 12:22:17 AM
+ Irini nem ehmot,

I believe it is a parabolic relationship...our spiritual strength begins weak as we are "finding" ourselves, but  during the midlife (perhaps mid 30s?), your spiritual strength is at its heighest and then eventually begins to come back down.

This caught my attention.  If spiritual strength is parabolic, that would seem to indicate that one has hit a 'peak' somehow.  As I understand it, there is no such peak, as we continue to strive to grow in Christ everyday (Christ being the source of our strength).  As Christians, we are called to grow in Christ continuously and try to be more like Him.  For our spiritual strength to decline would indicate a distruption in the link between us and the Source (Christ) which must be remedied right away.  As we get older, our spiritual strength (ideally) continues to grow and develop, it should not slacken.

Please pray for me.
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Sloga on June 24, 2006, 12:29:18 AM
Contrary to popular opinion, our spiritual strength and ability to supress our evil desires and inclinations actually weaken (along with their physical counterparts) as we get older....


Quote
This caught my attention.  If spiritual strength is parabolic, that would seem to indicate that one has hit a 'peak' somehow.  As I understand it, there is no such peak, as we continue to strive to grow in Christ everyday (Christ being the source of our strength). 


I was mearly attempting to broaden OZ's statement by saying we do not start of spiritually, but your contradiction is between you and him, not me  ;)
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Cephas on June 24, 2006, 12:34:58 AM
+ Irini nem ehmot,

My bad.  I didn't realize the point you were trying to make.  My humblest apologies.

Please pray for me.
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Thomas on June 24, 2006, 12:45:19 AM
As a social worker, I have  had the opportunity to come accross men who have come for counseling  stating they had a "sexual identity crisis".  Upon listening to many of them I discovered that while they were in their teens and trying to discern what God had in mind for them, they were approached by older  men who told them that because they had no attraction to women sexually that obviously they were homosexual.  They were led as children into homosexuality, guided by adult male predators who advised them that a person was either attracted to men or attracted to women. Such is the black and white result of the American Protestant Ethic.  They bought the idea that you were one way or the other, they did not know or teach about the third way, the angelic way of celibacy and possibly monastacism.

I have counseled numerous men and women who have had horrible relationships with companions, wives , life partners etc because they thought they must be in a relationship with either a man or a woman.  In my sesssions when I introduce the third way of celibacy, they are shocked---they almost always come back with the response they did not know of a third option. Our society does not offer the thgird option for the most part.  Indeed even Roman Catholic and Orthodox Christians often forget this option.

It is a very valid option and for those who have been called by God to it, this option can provide them great joy and fulfillment, a fulfillment much like that of marriage to those called to it. Perhaps the high divorce rate and growing homosexual voice may be arising from people who ave been denied the Third option for their life. What do you think?

In Christ,
Thomas
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Fr. George on June 24, 2006, 08:00:43 PM
As a social worker, I have  had the opportunity to come accross men who have come for counseling  stating they had a "sexual identity crisis".  Upon listening to many of them I discovered that while they were in their teens and trying to discern what God had in mind for them, they were approached by older  men who told them that because they had no attraction to women sexually that obviously they were homosexual.  They were led as children into homosexuality, guided by adult male predators who advised them that a person was either attracted to men or attracted to women. Such is the black and white result of the American Protestant Ethic.  They bought the idea that you were one way or the other, they did not know or teach about the third way, the angelic way of celibacy and possibly monastacism. 

Thomas, I never knew about that kind of phenomenon!  As for the final sentence, I agree 100%!  Even in Orthodox families today, as I have observed in the GOA, the third option is seen as abnormal or strange.  It will be a long journey to get people to understand the blessings of each way of life - married (hetero) and celibate.
Title: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Tallitot on June 26, 2006, 01:33:20 PM
Just curious as to why this topic comes up so often  :D
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Fr. George on June 26, 2006, 01:39:56 PM
How about #6: It is a socially unacceptable sin (unlike adultery, which at times is okay as long as it isn't public) that makes the perpetrator to seem more like a leper than the rest of us, who commit sins of equal magnitude yet because they are socially "acceptable" or "normal" don't get the condemnation.  THus, we use the internet like a lynch mob starting ground, to stir up anger at a sin which is just as bad as the anger and fury we wish to unleash upon it (specifically because our anger is not righteous anger, but rather fearful and ignorant).
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: BJohnD on June 26, 2006, 04:12:10 PM
How about #6: It is a socially unacceptable sin (unlike adultery, which at times is okay as long as it isn't public) that makes the perpetrator to seem more like a leper than the rest of us, who commit sins of equal magnitude yet because they are socially "acceptable" or "normal" don't get the condemnation.ÂÂ  THus, we use the internet like a lynch mob starting ground, to stir up anger at a sin which is just as bad as the anger and fury we wish to unleash upon it (specifically because our anger is not righteous anger, but rather fearful and ignorant).

B-I-N-G-O.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Keble on June 26, 2006, 05:13:12 PM
How about "because society/the media are presenting it as an issue"?
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: kansas city on June 26, 2006, 05:17:33 PM
Maybe i'm an exception, or maybe i'm of precisely the perspective you're referring to. ÂÂ But i've hoped that the threads regarding homosexuality might offer some legitimate patristic insight, but that wasn't an option on the poll. A significant percentage of my friends are gay, travelling in the social circles i do. ÂÂ Not to mention the 'biological' claims, and dramatic demands of acceptance or running the risk of committing a 'hate crime.'  I have a distinct opinion about it and would like Orthodox insight because i am newly, however limitedly, 'illumined'.

I understand that this thread is most likely directed hostilely at specific posters, but i was hoping that a genuine inquiry might steer things more positively.

Forgive me for whatever could be interpreted sarcastically or offensively.

michael
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Αριστοκλής on June 26, 2006, 06:32:37 PM
How about "because society/the media are presenting it as an issue"?


There you go! I agree. If bestiality were the new 'cause' I guess that would be a hot topic also.

(Opening new can of worms...)
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Sloga on June 26, 2006, 07:37:29 PM
[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9360.msg125770#msg125770 date=1151361157]
There you go! I agree. If bestiality were the new 'cause' I guess that would be a hot topic also.

(Opening new can of worms...)
[/quote]

Which further proves that the folks of OC.net are up to date and in style  ;)
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Carpatho Russian on June 26, 2006, 08:03:41 PM
I went for choice #4.
As I posted previously:
Why does it seem that at least once a month there is a post on the evilness or sinfulness of homosexuality?  Is there something lurking in the subconscious minds of posters?  ???
To take a line from Shakespeare's Hamlet, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks!" 
Although I think Cleveland's #6 says alot!
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: aserb on June 26, 2006, 08:54:28 PM
Kansas City

Are you Serbian or do you just attend a SOC? Regardless, the Serbs of OC.net welcome you Orthodox Brother.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: kansas city on June 26, 2006, 10:36:19 PM
hah I love that that's always the first question i'm asked. Sunday was my first experience visiting an ethnic Serb parish. It was, in truth, quite an experience (positive).  i won't take the thread off topic; but that does remind me of a light-hearted poll i wanted to start myself..
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Sloga on June 26, 2006, 10:45:38 PM
hah I love that that's always the first question i'm asked. Sunday was my first experience visiting an ethnic Serb parish. It was, in truth, quite an experience (positive).ÂÂ  i won't take the thread off topic; but that does remind me of a light-hearted poll i wanted to start myself..

Welcome brother  :)
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Psalti Boy on June 27, 2006, 02:19:22 AM
Just curious as to why this topic comes up so oftenÂÂ  :D

Could it be that someone may be peeking out of the closet???
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Tikhon29605 on June 27, 2006, 08:24:53 AM
I love visiting ethnic Slavic parishes! I am not of Slavic background, but they are always so warm, loving and gracious to me. Sometimes I view myself almost as an "adopted Slav." Of course, maybe it helps that I am well read in Slavic history, and have a deep appreciation for their culture and musical traditions. But I just really feel at home with the Slavs (particularly the Russians), even though I had a Germanic Lutheran upbringing.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Matthew777 on June 27, 2006, 11:15:18 PM
Sadly, the first option is the one most likely to be true.

Peace.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: GiC on June 28, 2006, 12:11:00 AM
Sadly, the first option is the one most likely to be true.

Peace.

Nah, I'm going with the plurality, #4...but it probably spills over into #5.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Asteriktos on June 28, 2006, 06:28:59 PM
Quote
Orthodox forums attract a lot of self torturing closet cases and men with doubts about thier own masculinity

Interestingly, in some ancient cultures it was considered more manly to have homosexual relations. Though I should say, lest I give the wrong impression by my recent posts, that I am not a homosexual myself :)  "Not that there's anything wrong with that."
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: DavidH on June 28, 2006, 06:44:35 PM
How about a sixth choice?
Because it IS such a hot button issue these days for both the left and the right many Christians with traditional values feel it is important to speak up and let their voice be heard in a democracy?................
   Honestly, not everyone who believes society should maintain traditional standards of decency is a hypocrite or a closet homosexual. Should we stereotype social liberals by saying that everyone who favors the modern form of tolerance is necessarilly a libertine?..........

In Christ,
Rd. David
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: smallwhisper on June 28, 2006, 09:27:27 PM
Quote
Peasants!
Miller Life? If you want water get it out of the tap!
But if you like your beer like your women- cold, strong, black and bitter- drink Guinness!
Good to see someone upholding "traditional standards of decency". An uncharitable person would think this statement came from a bigot, a chauvinist, or even a "libertine".
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: DavidH on June 28, 2006, 09:40:48 PM
Thank goodness there are are more Orthodox with a sense of humor than there are uncharitable ones.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: GiC on June 28, 2006, 11:41:18 PM
Thank goodness there are are more Orthodox with a sense of humor than there are uncharitable ones.

Though I may disagree with you on the psychology of those obsessed with homosexuality on religious internet forums, when it comes to what really matters, i.e. Beer, I'm 100% behind you ;)
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Psalti Boy on June 28, 2006, 11:57:35 PM
Though I may disagree with you on the psychology of those obsessed with homosexuality on religious internet forums, when it comes to what really matters, i.e. Beer, I'm 100% behind you ;)

OK.  I've had enough homosexual talk.  I'm out of here.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: DavidH on June 29, 2006, 12:00:00 AM
Though I may disagree with you on the psychology of those obsessed with homosexuality on religious internet forums, when it comes to what really matters, i.e. Beer, I'm 100% behind you ;)

I would be against an obsessive position from either the left or the right, but at least we agree on matters of SUBSTANCE.
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: calligraphqueen on June 29, 2006, 08:52:57 AM
Anastasios, I do not limit my contact to homosexuals behaviors simply because I am thinking about what they do in private.  It's rarely private!  For me, I am an active duty mother protecting young boys and little girls.  I think in that frame of reference because it's my calling right now-and I take it seriously.  In my work with women harmed by sexual brokenness, one issue that kept coming up was their man's fondness of young boys.  It's a common factor, and one that immediately puts me on guard because I have young boys to protect.  There are many homosexual activists that are trying to change laws for man/boy love.  Sexual brokenness bleeds in to many aspects of their lives and nearly takes over their life, in many many cases.  There are probably some loving quiet homosexual people out there, but I have yet to meet a one.  Maybe our area only draws the kind that are out to make a statement?  I don't know. 
I think there is a wall because I am fully mothering small children, and one of the gay community's biggest agenda's is to reprogram small children into thinking homosexuality is acceptable.  That creates a wall for me right off the bat, a line in the sand so to speak.  There are SO many attacks on little children and their minds and hearts, I try to shield some of those incoming missiles as best I can.  I am offended by those that launch them-whomever they may be.  Is a homosexual sin any worse than a hetero one?  Hardly, I was molested by a heterosexual man and I hold that sin just as wrong. My dd was molested by her gay uncle. It's all wrong.  I believe sexual sin is just so vile because it preys upon the young, the babies, our little daughters and sons. That is the enemy's way.  I was once told that satan has a particular hatred for women and children.  I would hardly disagree. Sexual predators abound, but it's going to be worse when the root behavior is considered "acceptable" by the masses.  Once they get you to okay their lifestyle, they feed you a bit more cripe and a bit more. It's the same slippery slope that started with legalized abortion, now those same folks want partial birth abortion ( a procedure that is NEVER needed and is horrific in nature) and euthanasia for folks deemed useless or too old, etc.  Once we accept that which is wrong, we become desensitized.
Is my wall one of protection or hatred?  I don't believe it's the latter, there isn't a feeling of hatred in my spirit.  I admit to being fed up with the overacting and feminizing-especially of dd's uncle (who got away with it)  I mean, I knew him before the act, the effect, the lisp and the swish.  Being fed up is not that abnormal.
As far as the good samaritan analogy, I am not sure it applies.  What opportunity to minister have I been afforded and then rejected?  Having dd's gay uncle and his multiple boyfriends over for tea??  Have them over for a bar-b-que and hope none take a shine to my handsome little boys?  The only exposure to gays I have had is in San Fran where it's all a show meant to gag you, or with folks that come to pick a fight with Jerry in the next town over-so again it's all for show.  I ONLY know of, or find the ones that have the agenda-not the ones going about living their lives quietly.  Might just be the environment here is ripe, who knows?
It really bugs me that a person like me, a mother, cannot stand up and say I don't want this for my children.  It makes me a biggot or vengeful in some way.  NO it doesn't!
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Serbian Patriot on June 29, 2006, 05:30:26 PM
Anastasios, I do not limit my contact to homosexuals behaviors simply because I am thinking about what they do in private.ÂÂ  It's rarely private!ÂÂ  For me, I am an active duty mother protecting young boys and little girls.ÂÂ  I think in that frame of reference because it's my calling right now-and I take it seriously.ÂÂ  In my work with women harmed by sexual brokenness, one issue that kept coming up was their man's fondness of young boys.ÂÂ  It's a common factor, and one that immediately puts me on guard because I have young boys to protect.ÂÂ  There are many homosexual activists that are trying to change laws for man/boy love.ÂÂ  Sexual brokenness bleeds in to many aspects of their lives and nearly takes over their life, in many many cases.ÂÂ  There are probably some loving quiet homosexual people out there, but I have yet to meet a one.ÂÂ  Maybe our area only draws the kind that are out to make a statement?ÂÂ  I don't know.ÂÂ  
I think there is a wall because I am fully mothering small children, and one of the gay community's biggest agenda's is to reprogram small children into thinking homosexuality is acceptable.ÂÂ  That creates a wall for me right off the bat, a line in the sand so to speak.ÂÂ  There are SO many attacks on little children and their minds and hearts, I try to shield some of those incoming missiles as best I can.ÂÂ  I am offended by those that launch them-whomever they may be.ÂÂ  Is a homosexual sin any worse than a hetero one?ÂÂ  Hardly, I was molested by a heterosexual man and I hold that sin just as wrong. My dd was molested by her gay uncle. It's all wrong.ÂÂ  I believe sexual sin is just so vile because it preys upon the young, the babies, our little daughters and sons. That is the enemy's way.ÂÂ  I was once told that satan has a particular hatred for women and children.ÂÂ  I would hardly disagree. Sexual predators abound, but it's going to be worse when the root behavior is considered "acceptable" by the masses.ÂÂ  Once they get you to okay their lifestyle, they feed you a bit more cripe and a bit more. It's the same slippery slope that started with legalized abortion, now those same folks want partial birth abortion ( a procedure that is NEVER needed and is horrific in nature) and euthanasia for folks deemed useless or too old, etc.ÂÂ  Once we accept that which is wrong, we become desensitized.
Is my wall one of protection or hatred?ÂÂ  I don't believe it's the latter, there isn't a feeling of hatred in my spirit.ÂÂ  I admit to being fed up with the overacting and feminizing-especially of dd's uncle (who got away with it)ÂÂ  I mean, I knew him before the act, the effect, the lisp and the swish.ÂÂ  Being fed up is not that abnormal.
As far as the good samaritan analogy, I am not sure it applies.ÂÂ  What opportunity to minister have I been afforded and then rejected?ÂÂ  Having dd's gay uncle and his multiple boyfriends over for tea??ÂÂ  Have them over for a bar-b-que and hope none take a shine to my handsome little boys?ÂÂ  The only exposure to gays I have had is in San Fran where it's all a show meant to gag you, or with folks that come to pick a fight with Jerry in the next town over-so again it's all for show.ÂÂ  I ONLY know of, or find the ones that have the agenda-not the ones going about living their lives quietly.ÂÂ  Might just be the environment here is ripe, who knows?
It really bugs me that a person like me, a mother, cannot stand up and say I don't want this for my children.ÂÂ  It makes me a biggot or vengeful in some way.ÂÂ  NO it doesn't!
Good luck raising your chiildren, the child in your avatar looks full of vitality and very cute.
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: Sloga on June 29, 2006, 08:24:19 PM
Anastasios, I do not limit my contact to homosexuals behaviors simply because I am thinking about what they do in private.ÂÂ  It's rarely private!ÂÂ  For me, I am an active duty mother protecting young boys and little girls.ÂÂ  I think in that frame of reference because it's my calling right now-and I take it seriously.ÂÂ  In my work with women harmed by sexual brokenness, one issue that kept coming up was their man's fondness of young boys.ÂÂ  It's a common factor, and one that immediately puts me on guard because I have young boys to protect.ÂÂ  There are many homosexual activists that are trying to change laws for man/boy love.ÂÂ  Sexual brokenness bleeds in to many aspects of their lives and nearly takes over their life, in many many cases.ÂÂ  There are probably some loving quiet homosexual people out there, but I have yet to meet a one.ÂÂ  Maybe our area only draws the kind that are out to make a statement?ÂÂ  I don't know.ÂÂ  
I think there is a wall because I am fully mothering small children, and one of the gay community's biggest agenda's is to reprogram small children into thinking homosexuality is acceptable.ÂÂ  That creates a wall for me right off the bat, a line in the sand so to speak.ÂÂ  There are SO many attacks on little children and their minds and hearts, I try to shield some of those incoming missiles as best I can.ÂÂ  I am offended by those that launch them-whomever they may be.ÂÂ  Is a homosexual sin any worse than a hetero one?ÂÂ  Hardly, I was molested by a heterosexual man and I hold that sin just as wrong. My dd was molested by her gay uncle. It's all wrong.ÂÂ  I believe sexual sin is just so vile because it preys upon the young, the babies, our little daughters and sons. That is the enemy's way.ÂÂ  I was once told that satan has a particular hatred for women and children.ÂÂ  I would hardly disagree. Sexual predators abound, but it's going to be worse when the root behavior is considered "acceptable" by the masses.ÂÂ  Once they get you to okay their lifestyle, they feed you a bit more cripe and a bit more. It's the same slippery slope that started with legalized abortion, now those same folks want partial birth abortion ( a procedure that is NEVER needed and is horrific in nature) and euthanasia for folks deemed useless or too old, etc.ÂÂ  Once we accept that which is wrong, we become desensitized.
Is my wall one of protection or hatred?ÂÂ  I don't believe it's the latter, there isn't a feeling of hatred in my spirit.ÂÂ  I admit to being fed up with the overacting and feminizing-especially of dd's uncle (who got away with it)ÂÂ  I mean, I knew him before the act, the effect, the lisp and the swish.ÂÂ  Being fed up is not that abnormal.
As far as the good samaritan analogy, I am not sure it applies.ÂÂ  What opportunity to minister have I been afforded and then rejected?ÂÂ  Having dd's gay uncle and his multiple boyfriends over for tea??ÂÂ  Have them over for a bar-b-que and hope none take a shine to my handsome little boys?ÂÂ  The only exposure to gays I have had is in San Fran where it's all a show meant to gag you, or with folks that come to pick a fight with Jerry in the next town over-so again it's all for show.ÂÂ  I ONLY know of, or find the ones that have the agenda-not the ones going about living their lives quietly.ÂÂ  Might just be the environment here is ripe, who knows?
It really bugs me that a person like me, a mother, cannot stand up and say I don't want this for my children.ÂÂ  It makes me a biggot or vengeful in some way.ÂÂ  NO it doesn't!

Honestly, the world needs more mothers like you. I don't think I need to explain.

May the Lord protect you and your children,

Sloga
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: ozgeorge on June 29, 2006, 08:34:36 PM
There are many homosexual activists that are trying to change laws for man/boy love.
This is paedophilia, not homosexuality. It almost sounds like it would be "OK" for men to have sexual relations with minors provided they are female. The man who sexually attacked my 2 year old Goddaughter had also attacked boys.
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: calligraphqueen on June 29, 2006, 09:12:36 PM
Oz, is there such a thing as homosexual pedophilia?  If a man likes small boys, to me it is both.  But then the man that attacked my dd liked anything sexual he could get his hands on then, and now seems to limit himself to only males. I don't think it's okay either way personally, just so that is clear. :-\
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: ozgeorge on June 29, 2006, 09:36:55 PM
I think there is a very real danger of confusing homosexuality with paedophilia, calligraphqueen. They are not the same. Homosexuality is an attraction to the same sex. Paedophilia is an attraction to children. Both are passions, but the danger lies in assuming that it is homosexuals that children need to be protected from, and while we keep a watchful eye on them, the real danger of a paedophile creeps in.
I would appreciate some evidence for your claim that:
There are many homosexual activists that are trying to change laws for man/boy love.
Are they "Homosexual activists" or "Paedophile activists"?
The difference is this: a homosexual activist seeks rights for consenting adults. A paedophile activist seeks rights for adults over children.
I'm not questioning your right to protect your children from those who seek to morally justify homosexual acts- I applaud it. But the greater danger to children comes not from homosexuals, but from paedophiles- who are much better at hiding who they are, and who target children. At least you know where you stand with an openly gay man or woman, whereas exposing your children to someone you least suspect (and statistically is most likely to be married) could be exposing them to a paedophile.
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: ozgeorge on June 29, 2006, 09:52:10 PM
"Paedophilia involves intense sexual urges and sexual activity with prepubescent children. Two thirds of molested children are girls, usually between the ages of 8 and 11. To meet the diagnostic criteria, a paedophile must be at least 16 years old and at least five years older than the victim. Most paedophiles are men, but there are cases of women having repeated sexual contact with children. In 90% of cases the molester is known to the child, and 15% (possibly more) are relatives. Most paedophiles are heterosexual and are often married with their own children, although they commonly have marital or sexual difficulties or problems with alcohol misuse. Eighty per cent have a history of childhood sexual abuse." Source:  British Medical Journal (http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1115095)

"In "journoworld" (by no means exclusively tabloid or the hitherto gutter press), celibacy is a convenient institution on which to hang paedophilia. Most of us know that there is no connection, that most paedophiles are married. Any responsible research shows that celibate Catholic priests and religious or Buddhist monks are no more inclined to abuse children than the married clergy in any other religious denomination. Celibacy is a soft target, now as much as during the Reformation." Source:  The Brandsma Review (http://www.brandsmareview.net)
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: calligraphqueen on June 30, 2006, 01:15:35 PM
I think that my discernment is, sadly, born out of experience.  I think it is a skill picked up on the battle field.
I never claimed that all pedophiles were homosexual, far from it.  The man who severely molested my mother was her father, and he was a literal member of the "sex before 8, or it's too late club"  Yes, there is such a thing, and it's membership is not limited to heterosexual males.

I claim that any time a person bends the rules of sexuality put in place by their creator, and goes further and further down the path of a life of sexual deviance-that all bets are off.  Just like the man that is at first content with a little soft porn, then needs more hardcore, then needs the real thing, then starts "flashing" people, then starts molesting his daughter, then goes for more and more and more... Ever seen the interview with Dobson and Ted Bundy?  Once you tasted of perversion of purity of anykind, it typically doesn't stop right there.  A little peek or touch isn't enough anymore.  Same thing with my own father.  And the same thing with my daughter, while in the care of her idiot dad,  her gay uncle molested her.  He wasn't the "flaming gay" we all know now back then, just a very confused boy.
We can't limit pedophilia to heterosexual men, or women for that matter.  Of course it's not a given that a gay person is also a pedophile, and that wasn't my claim.  Yes, pedophilia and homosexuality are different, so is pedophilia and beastiality- but sexual perversion blurs the lines of what is right and wrong and there is a lot of crossover.  That is my experience anyway.  That experience is based on women I have worked with ( I did not counsel their male partners since that wasn't the set up in place) and my own battered life as sexual prey, as well as my daughter's.  It absolutely amazes me that sexuality is such a monstrously important issue in our society.  it's just sex, whether you do it with men or women or both or animals or tables or whatever.  Is there nothing more to the human existence than sex?  There are those out there that would have us and our children believing that is the case.
Celibacy in our society, here in the US anyway, is looked upon as weak.  In reality, it would take great care, determination, committment and a strong Faith to make it happen.  It's a lot easier to go with one's urges, I should think.
I do not mean to offend, or to suggest that all gays/lesbians are also pedophiles.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  I do contend that when you step into the cesspool of sexual perversion, you are going to be covered with what's in the pit and it will affect everything you see and touch.  One has to get out of the cesspool, cease going back to it like a dog to vomit, and focus on their eternity. That's hardly limited to homosexuality.
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: GiC on June 30, 2006, 01:29:46 PM
I think that my discernment is, sadly, born out of experience.ÂÂ  I think it is a skill picked up on the battle field.
I never claimed that all pedophiles were homosexual, far from it.ÂÂ  The man who severely molested my mother was her father, and he was a literal member of the "sex before 8, or it's too late club"ÂÂ  Yes, there is such a thing, and it's membership is not limited to heterosexual males.

Your opinion may have some merit within your experience, but it doesn't seem to measure up to research and data on the subject. Research seems to suggest that Homosexuality is mostly phenotypical in nature, where as pedophilia is primarily psychological. Thus, to compare the two is to compare apples and oranges; whether or not one has tendencies towards pedophilia should be independent of whether they're homosexual or heterosexual. Ozgeorge had some good studies and statistics to support his conclusions, do you have know of any data or studies that could give support to your opinion on the matter?
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: pensateomnia on June 30, 2006, 01:39:51 PM
Ozgeorge had some good studies and statistics to support his conclusions, do you have know of any data or studies that could give support to your opinion on the matter?

Her opinion on the matter is that she wants to protect her kids from sexual deviance. Thus, her concern is motherly and practical, not propositional.
Title: Re: Orthodoxy and Homosexuality
Post by: GiC on June 30, 2006, 09:45:50 PM
Her opinion on the matter is that she wants to protect her kids from sexual deviance. Thus, her concern is motherly and practical, not propositional.

An opinion stated dogmatically, though at odds with current scientific research in the field. Though my concern is academic and intellictual, not reactionary.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: ozgeorge on June 24, 2007, 09:13:18 AM
Just finished using the tag feature and a google site search to compile a list of seperate threads directly dealing with the topic of homosexuality on this forum to date. The list is by no means exaustive, and was the result of searching only for the keyword "homosexual" (not "gay" etc).


http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,10774.0.html (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,10774.0.html)

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5260.0.html (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5260.0.html)

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11688.0.html (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11688.0.html)

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5459.0.html (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5459.0.html)

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11890.0.html (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11890.0.html)

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11897.0.html (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11897.0.html)

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,3825.0.html (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,3825.0.html)

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,6577.0.html (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,6577.0.html)

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,48.0.html (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,48.0.html)

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,8458.0.html (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,8458.0.html)

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,8122.0.html (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,8122.0.html)

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,8068.0.html (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,8068.0.html)

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9156.0.html (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9156.0.html)

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9360.0.html
 (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9360.0.html)
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9330.0.html
 (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9330.0.html)
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9297.0.html (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9297.0.html)

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,7531.0.html (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,7531.0.html)

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11954.0.html (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11954.0.html)

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5780.0.html (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5780.0.html)

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5780.0.html
 (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5780.0.html)
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11322.0.html
 (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11322.0.html)
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9135.0.html
 (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9135.0.html)
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Jonas Suender on June 24, 2007, 09:50:58 AM
quote by cleveland

How about #6: It is a socially unacceptable sin (unlike adultery, which at times is okay as long as it isn't public) that makes the perpetrator to seem more like a leper than the rest of us, who commit sins of equal magnitude yet because they are socially "acceptable" or "normal" don't get the condemnation.  THus, we use the internet like a lynch mob starting ground, to stir up anger at a sin which is just as bad as the anger and fury we wish to unleash upon it (specifically because our anger is not righteous anger, but rather fearful and ignorant).


Yes.  Well said.

I've often thought that homosexuality is one of the favorite things of many conservatives.  They sure talk about it enough.  I think that is because homosexuality gives them something to hate in others, and it thereby allows them to overlook their own sins.  After all, heterosexual adultery and fornication and pornography are much more widespread and damaging to society; yet, it is the gays who are the targets of the most intense hatred.  I think being anti-gay also allows many preachers, priests, and ministers to lead safely (and sometimes lucratively) without worrying about alienating their congregations (who are often also their employers).  It also sometimes seems like a kind of tribalism, by which the members of a group define theselves by whom they hate.  Finally, I think some people are repulsed by homosexuality, for a variety of reasons, and they use religion as a socially acceptable means of expressing their revulsion. 

Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Serbian Patriot on June 24, 2007, 09:52:17 AM
Interestingly, in some ancient cultures it was considered more manly to have homosexual relations. Though I should say, lest I give the wrong impression by my recent posts, that I am not a homosexual myself :)  "Not that there's anything wrong with that."
I don't know if it was considered 'more manly', but I know that in some cultures it was considered acceptable as long as you were doing the penetrating.  The guy recieving would not have been considered manly at all.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: ytterbiumanalyst on June 24, 2007, 10:01:50 AM
Personally, I'm sick of the subject. Coming out of evangelical Protestantism, it seemed homosexuality was the worst of all sins, and I heard endless sermons blasting gays for all the problems of society. Orthodoxy I know is more reasonable about the subject, but still...Can't people talk about moral issues that don't have to do with sex?
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: ozgeorge on June 24, 2007, 10:07:48 AM
Personally, I'm sick of the subject. Coming out of evangelical Protestantism, it seemed homosexuality was the worst of all sins, and I heard endless sermons blasting gays for all the problems of society. Orthodoxy I know is more reasonable about the subject, but still...Can't people talk about moral issues that don't have to do with sex?
What did you vote in the poll? I've gone for the Prozac theory.

(http://www.wegotcards.com/cards/rude/mood/prozac.GIF)
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Ebor on June 24, 2007, 10:28:34 AM
Personally, I'm sick of the subject. Coming out of evangelical Protestantism, it seemed homosexuality was the worst of all sins, and I heard endless sermons blasting gays for all the problems of society. Orthodoxy I know is more reasonable about the subject, but still...Can't people talk about moral issues that don't have to do with sex?

Oh!  I like that idea.  You mean that people could look at things like lying and cheating and gossping and pride and stealing and how that affects how we deal with other people? 

The idea of "Moral issues = sex" is an easy one for people to get on to because, imo, it often becomes "look at what *that* perverted person is doing and how wrong it is" rather then looking at oneself.

Ebor
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Heorhij on June 24, 2007, 10:34:39 AM
I agree with what Cleveland said. Homosexuality is just a convenient, easy target.

Personally, I would never raise this issue. I understand that all our sins are just that - sins. A so-called "heterosexual" who sins is not any better than a so-called "homosexual" who sins.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: GiC on June 24, 2007, 01:13:42 PM
What did you vote in the poll? I've gone for the Prozac theory.

Only because potential side effects of SSRI's are ED and diminished libido...thus helping to bring some of the closet cases down and lets them worry about things other than where they can and cannot stick a certain appendage...of course this unfortunately only works about half the time, so we'll keep seeing the self-hating anti-gay posts from the other half, even after they get on their prozac. ;)
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Jonas Suender on June 24, 2007, 06:37:48 PM
I'm agreeing with other posters who said that there are other, more important issues in Orthodoxy than this. 
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: scamandrius on June 24, 2007, 06:48:52 PM
I'm agreeing with other posters who said that there are other, more important issues in Orthodoxy than this. 

But we shouldn't be afraid to talk about this and continue to expound the truth.  Nor should we trumpet it every single second and mock and condemn homosexuals like those radicals out of Topeka, KS led by Phelps.  I was in Topeka last week and I saw a few of them with their trademark signs which I will not lay out here.  Scary!
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: ytterbiumanalyst on June 24, 2007, 07:07:05 PM
^
I'm not afraid to talk about it, I just see homosexuality as pretty much a non-issue among Orthodox. We don't condemn people who struggle with same-sex attraction, but most of those who do struggle with it treat it properly, as sin but no less or greater than any other sin. They work with their priests to overcome the temptation, same as all of us.

I'm agreeing with other posters who said that there are other, more important issues in Orthodoxy than this. 

Absolutely. I'm not saying that this isn't an important issue; we as Orthodox need to be acutely aware of the effects of sin, of whatever kind. Yet there are definitely many issues which affect many more people that are not being addressed as well by the Church. Money, for example, was Jesus' number-one most preached-about topic, yet many of our churches fail to preach about the proper uses of money, except to encourage tithing. If Christians were as concerned about money as they were about homosexuality, we could put a significant dent in the fiscal irresponsibility this country is heavily involved in. And that's just one example. I for one would love to see on this board people tackle some really tough moral issues. I think I'll bring some up myself, as well.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: CCM08 on June 24, 2007, 07:34:44 PM
Because there aren't adulters or "fornicators right's groups" that are demanding government approval of their sexual fetishes.  We may not punish adultery in criminal courts, but the punishments for it handed out by family courts can be a heck of a lot worse than a little jail time.  Not to mention that there is a significantly lower standard of evidence in a family court than in a criminal courtroom.  Fornicators don't have lobbies dedicated to making the state recongize their lifestyle.  For example, no one made a peep when Washington state stuck "common law marriage" in the rubbish bin and it's hardly a fortress of fundievangelicalism.
Personally, I can't wait until the S&M subculture gets an advocate lobby going and wants the state to assign the same legal weight to bondage guild concil decisions as court orders.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: GiC on June 24, 2007, 07:54:23 PM
Because there aren't adulters or "fornicators right's groups" that are demanding government approval of their sexual fetishes.

We don't have 'people with two arms and two legs rights groups' either...what's the point? 95% of the population has premarital sex, society already approves of this activity (or at least 95% of society has demonstrated by their actions that they approve of it, of those 95% who feign not to, they're hypocrites).

Quote
We may not punish adultery in criminal courts, but the punishments for it handed out by family courts can be a heck of a lot worse than a little jail time.  Not to mention that there is a significantly lower standard of evidence in a family court than in a criminal courtroom.

Only in backwards states dominated by evangelical protestants where it's still acceptable to marry your first cousin. Here in California (as in much of the west) we have community property, in case of divorce everyone gets half of all community property, it's a simple matter of civil (as opposed to common) law.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: St. Christopher on June 24, 2007, 09:57:19 PM
Because there aren't adulters or "fornicators right's groups" that are demanding government approval of their sexual fetishes.  We may not punish adultery in criminal courts, but the punishments for it handed out by family courts can be a heck of a lot worse than a little jail time.  Not to mention that there is a significantly lower standard of evidence in a family court than in a criminal courtroom.  Fornicators don't have lobbies dedicated to making the state recongize their lifestyle.  For example, no one made a peep when Washington state stuck "common law marriage" in the rubbish bin and it's hardly a fortress of fundievangelicalism.
Personally, I can't wait until the S&M subculture gets an advocate lobby going and wants the state to assign the same legal weight to bondage guild concil decisions as court orders.
Why can't this answer be a possibility in the poll?  None of the rest of the options come even close to expressing my belief.  Not I think a serious attempt was being made to represent the people who have made negative statements about homosexual acts.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: GiC on June 24, 2007, 10:10:32 PM
Why can't this answer be a possibility in the poll?  None of the rest of the options come even close to expressing my belief.  Not I think a serious attempt was being made to represent the people who have made negative statements about homosexual acts.

Because the purpose of the poll was more to analyze the psychology of such people than to give them yet another soap box.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: St. Christopher on June 24, 2007, 10:28:53 PM
Because the purpose of the poll was more to analyze the psychology of such people than to give them yet another soap box.
I see.  The purpose wasn't really to understand why people are making these posts, it was to make fun of them.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: ozgeorge on June 24, 2007, 10:54:22 PM
I see.  The purpose wasn't really to understand why people are making these posts, it was to make fun of them.

Well, yes.
I would have thought that was obvious.
There are over twenty other threads (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9360.msg162246.html#msg162246) where these people can stand on their soap boxes (and do so). But before they do, one would hope that they would heed cleveland's advice (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11954.msg162266.html#new) given on one of those threads.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: bergschlawiner on June 25, 2007, 02:30:29 AM
Reminds me of a remark once made to me by a ROCOR bishop in Germany who was talking about some groups who seemed to be attracted to the Orthodox Church who were of this category and he wondered why the Church was attracting such people. 
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on June 25, 2007, 02:35:26 AM
Well, yes.
I would have thought that was obvious.
Ah, well, that seems a very Christian thing to do. Can't shut 'em up? Make fun of 'em!

Speaking for myself only here, I usually speak out against the so-called homosexual agenda forcing their minority beliefs on the entire galaxy. But as I said before, the message of the Orthodox Church needs to be heard. And though condemning homosexuality is part of that message, loving the homosexual is the impedus for condemning it, "Hate the sin, love the sinner." But that's all of us isn't it? We're all sinners who need love, not just from the Church, but from one another. You can't get someone to drink clean water when they've drank dirty water all their life until you show them clean water. But we must show them with love. That means that we love them, but at the same time that love means we also have a responsibility in helping them deal with their faults (and we all have faults).

Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: GiC on June 25, 2007, 02:40:28 AM
Ah, well, that seems a very Christian thing to do. Can't shut 'em up? Make fun of 'em!

Well, when the only sane choices are to laugh or cry, sometimes it's better we choose the former.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Jonas Suender on June 25, 2007, 05:35:37 AM
Money, for example, was Jesus' number-one most preached-about topic, yet many of our churches fail to preach about the proper uses of money, except to encourage tithing. If Christians were as concerned about money as they were about homosexuality, we could put a significant dent in the fiscal irresponsibility this country is heavily involved in. And that's just one example. I for one would love to see on this board people tackle some really tough moral issues. I think I'll bring some up myself, as well.

And I would be genuinely interested in such a topic !  I encourage you to start a thread on it.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: ozgeorge on June 25, 2007, 05:39:48 AM
some groups who seemed to be attracted to the Orthodox Church who were of this category
You mean, sinners?
Sinners wanting to enter the Orthodox Church? Surely not!  :D

we also have a responsibility in helping them deal with their faults (and we all have faults).
When there are over twenty threads on this forum about the serious fault of avarice, I might take this a bit more seriously. And I also might take it seriously when people who want to do so show me their letters from their Bishops appointing them as Spiritual Fathers. A Father once wrote that fornicators will be shown more mercy on the Day of Judgement than the avarous, because the former were overcome by a powerful passion while the latter gave in to mere money. Yet I don't see twenty two threads on this forum about avarice. At any rate, when an Orthodox Christian examines faults, they should be using a mirror, not a telescope.

Well, when the only sane choices are to laugh or cry, sometimes it's better we choose the former.
And at least laughter has the power to minimise the harm done.

And finally, instead of everyone just spouting what they think is the teaching of the Church on the matter, and thereby leaving themselves open to such ridicule, perhaps they would do well to look at what the Church has actually said (http://www.scoba.us/statements/statementdetail.asp?id=197), and note especially the paragraph in this statement which says:
Quote
"....we must stress that persons with a homosexual orientation are to be cared for with the same mercy and love that is bestowed by our Lord Jesus Christ upon all of humanity. All persons are called by God to grow spiritually and morally toward holiness."
Somehow, I don't think what the SCOBA Bishops mean by this is that we should be caustic, ascerbic and rude to posters on this forum who have homosexual orientation, or patronizing them by telling them that "its a bitter pill, take it or leave it" when our same-sex attracted posters have probably seen more spiritual struggle and are being tried like gold in a fire tremendously more painful and purifying than these online wannabe "spiritual fathers". So yes, I think the riddicule is warranted, and sometimes is the only way to get some people off their high horse before they trample on others, thinking they are going about "God's work".

MODERATION.
The topic of this thread is the issue of homosexuality being over-discussed on Orthodox Forums. It is NOT a thread about the Church's position on homosexuality (which we all know anyway). As pointed out, there are over 20 other threads on the subject of homosexuality, and if people insist on getting on their soap boxes to discuss homosexuality itself, they should pick one of the 20 other threads. Since there are over 20 other threads to pick from for people to tell us what we already know (ie that homosexual acts are a sin) any off topic post in this thread will simply be discarded.
George
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: lubeltri on June 25, 2007, 05:34:03 PM
Somehow, I don't think what the SCOBA Bishops mean by this is that we should be caustic, ascerbic and rude to posters on this forum who have homosexual orientation, or patronizing them by telling them that "its a bitter pill, take it or leave it" when our same-sex attracted posters have probably seen more spiritual struggle and are being tried like gold in a fire tremendously more painful and purifying than these online wannabe "spiritual fathers".

Hear, hear! They have.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Heorhij on June 25, 2007, 06:09:39 PM
I am very sorry if I sounded in any way "patronizing" in that thread in the "Faith Issues" when I replied to Zebu and said something like, "I, too, had my share of struggle with my "natural" wanton sexuality, even though I am not homosexual and happily married to a woman." It's really difficult to talk about these things on Internet forums - there really is a huge risk of inadvertently sounding "moralistic."


MODERATION.
Off Topic text removed.
The topic of this thread is the issue of homosexuality being over-discussed on Orthodox Forums. It is NOT a thread about the Church's position on homosexuality (which we all know anyway). As pointed out, there are over 20 other threads on the subject of homosexuality, and if people insist on getting on their soap boxes to discuss homosexuality itself, they should pick one of the 20 other threads. Since there are over 20 other threads to pick from for people to tell us what we already know (ie that homosexual acts are a sin) any off topic post in this thread will simply be discarded.
George
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Tamara on June 26, 2007, 10:49:52 AM
Ah, well, that seems a very Christian thing to do. Can't shut 'em up? Make fun of 'em!

Speaking for myself only here, I usually speak out against the so-called homosexual agenda forcing their minority beliefs on the entire galaxy. But as I said before, the message of the Orthodox Church needs to be heard. And though condemning homosexuality is part of that message, loving the homosexual is the impedus for condemning it, "Hate the sin, love the sinner." But that's all of us isn't it? We're all sinners who need love, not just from the Church, but from one another. You can't get someone to drink clean water when they've drank dirty water all their life until you show them clean water. But we must show them with love. That means that we love them, but at the same time that love means we also have a responsibility in helping them deal with their faults (and we all have faults).



On the Orthodox forums I have posted to the reason homosexuality comes up often usually has to do with changes in laws and education promoted by the homosexual lobby in the United States.

So while I never have hated homosexuals and have been friends with them in the past. I do hate the homosexual political agenda in the state of California because it effects my children. The eighth grade sex ed curriculum advocates that children explore their sexual identity by experimenting. Even the secular parents were up in arms about these recent changes to the curriculum. Love the sinner, hate the sin and the political agenda promoting and celebrating  the sin through public education.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: ozgeorge on June 26, 2007, 11:08:24 AM
^ Tie this post in to the topic of "Homosexuality on Orthodox Forums" or it's going bye-byes.

EDIT: Thanks Tamara for making the adjustments.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: calligraphqueen on June 27, 2007, 01:02:23 PM
this topic keeps coming up because no one really does anything.  Some spout off tolerance agenda propaganda and call themselves more enlightened, then they proceed to mock anyone that has the gonadal fortitude to believe differently.

Orthodoxy might say homosexual acts are wrong, but most Orthodox I have met in my 4 years converted are of the same liberal thinking that condones and endorses the homosexual agenda.  Many cradle (it seems) are in no hurry to take a stand against anything, even if canon law is quite specific.  Even if their children are being inundated with graphic homosexualized education from the age of 6, they sit and ignore the future ramifications. wouldn't want to cause any politically incorrect waves would we?

It keeps coming up because any type of sexual sin is usually not limited to one person.  Homosexual sin is hardly ever monogamous or confined to respectful levels of privacy. It's gratuitously exploited for all the world to see, rammed into young minds constantly, beaten over our heads, and harming our youth.    Homosexuals are just as likely to be involved in a group supporting forcing changes on all of the rest of us, as homeschoolers  are to be involved in a co op for high school math.  Which one is more harmful?
sometimes the arrogance and mockery on here frosts my glutes.  Most of it comes from students sitting in their dorms or their parents houses on their parents nickel, instead of those actually commited to the raising of the next generation.  The former knows little actual truth from experience and have yet to see the front lines, the latter are overwhelmingly engaged in the battle and sick of the whining.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Veniamin on June 27, 2007, 01:20:06 PM
this topic keeps coming up because no one really does anything.  Some spout off tolerance agenda propaganda and call themselves more enlightened, then they proceed to mock anyone that has the gonadal fortitude to believe differently.

Orthodoxy might say homosexual acts are wrong, but most Orthodox I have met in my 4 years converted are of the same liberal thinking that condones and endorses the homosexual agenda.  Many cradle (it seems) are in no hurry to take a stand against anything, even if canon law is quite specific.  Even if their children are being inundated with graphic homosexualized education from the age of 6, they sit and ignore the future ramifications. wouldn't want to cause any politically incorrect waves would we?

It keeps coming up because any type of sexual sin is usually not limited to one person.  Homosexual sin is hardly ever monogamous or confined to respectful levels of privacy. It's gratuitously exploited for all the world to see, rammed into young minds constantly, beaten over our heads, and harming our youth.    Homosexuals are just as likely to be involved in a group supporting forcing changes on all of the rest of us, as homeschoolers  are to be involved in a co op for high school math.  Which one is more harmful?
sometimes the arrogance and mockery on here frosts my glutes.  Most of it comes from students sitting in their dorms or their parents houses on their parents nickel, instead of those actually commited to the raising of the next generation.  The former knows little actual truth from experience and have yet to see the front lines, the latter are overwhelmingly engaged in the battle and sick of the whining.

So in other words, if you're not homeschooling half a dozen kids, you don't have anything worthwhile to say. ::)

Having been in high school and junior high and all not terribly long ago, I don't recall anything that would remotely resemble some sort of "homosexual educational agenda."  Even in college, the only time I encountered anything close to that was the small gay-rights group on campus when they sponsored coming out day and most people just thought that was silly.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: GiC on June 27, 2007, 01:52:33 PM
So in other words, if you're not homeschooling half a dozen kids, you don't have anything worthwhile to say. ::)

Having been in high school and junior high and all not terribly long ago, I don't recall anything that would remotely resemble some sort of "homosexual educational agenda."  Even in college, the only time I encountered anything close to that was the small gay-rights group on campus when they sponsored coming out day and most people just thought that was silly.

The whining we see in calligraphqueen's posts is typical of the conspiracy theorists of the evangelical protestant fundamentalists. I never heard anything even remotely advocating homosexuality in either high school or college, safe for one philosophy professor who was openly gay...go figure...and even then it was hardly a pressing agenda, his complaints essentially amounted to 'mind your own business'.

These scare tactics are simply off the wall conspiracy theories, my advice is stop reading 'Focus on the Family' propaganda literature and protect your kids from what they really need protected from, this extremist fundamentalist backwards counterculture movement you seem to be involved in; heaven forbid we be normal members of society rather than hippie holdovers. ::)
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: lubeltri on June 27, 2007, 02:13:23 PM
These scare tactics are simply off the wall conspiracy theories, my advice is stop reading 'Focus on the Family' propaganda literature and protect your kids from what they really need protected from, this extremist fundamentalist backwards counterculture movement you seem to be involved in; heaven forbid we be normal members of society rather than hippie holdovers. ::)

Have you been reading the latest issue of First Things or the book it recently reviewed, Preston Shires's Hippies of the Religious Right?

http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=5918
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: calligraphqueen on June 27, 2007, 04:15:20 PM
not that i am at all shocked at the response, nor the rude comment about how many children I might be raising.  typical, arrogant.  If you are still in school then you haven't stepped out into reality yet, you aren't the ones engaged in the battle.  (whatever that battle might be for) Years ago we hosted Mel White's church within our own.  As a result I had to walk my children through that other guy's hostile hating church protesting our efforts, and got my share of insults and barbs simply for attending church with *gasp* gays!!  oh wait, barbs here too?  I tell you, these days if you take a stand for anything, there will always be some young goof with no experience to tell you you are wrong. He will likely call himself some sort of "christian" too.
 You assumed I was just speaking from some right wing conspiracy handbook, but the reality is my experience is far more graphic.
I come from a family history of horrid sexual abuse, then I have survived sexual abuse myself, from a hetero perv, and I am raising one child that has survived it from a homo perv. See, your assumption was wrong.   if you must know, those are the things that have shaped my thinking, Focus on the Family wasn't capable of making a dent in that.
 Sexual sin, of any kind (as i pointed out) is extremely harmful to the most vulnerable among us.  Blasting me, calling me a fundie, or telling us you didn't have any sex ed classes is irrelevant.  I didn't care for the groups you mentioned before I converted, I certainly have no idea what they are printing now.  I deal with the scars and aftershocks of sexual sin on the front lines, so yes, I do have a bit less naivete that a college student who probably has yet to make any real dent in the world.  most of us graduate and get taken down a few notches from those ivory towers, before we are of any use to anyone. You should never assume that simply because your education is more recent, then your views are more relevant. In fact, it's a good idea never to lead off with assumptions at all.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Veniamin on June 27, 2007, 04:33:10 PM
Thank you for underscoring my point that you apparently think the only opinions and experiences worth hearing are those that exactly mirror your own.  Pointing out all the things that you have been through and are doing is a really flimsy rationale for dismissing everyone else's comments; however, if it serves to make you feel good about yourself, then go for it.  In the meantime, don't go claiming there's some sort of mass homosexual indoctrination in public schools when those of us who were recently there never saw any of it. 
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Tamara on June 27, 2007, 04:33:28 PM
The whining we see in calligraphqueen's posts is typical of the conspiracy theorists of the evangelical protestant fundamentalists. I never heard anything even remotely advocating homosexuality in either high school or college, safe for one philosophy professor who was openly gay...go figure...and even then it was hardly a pressing agenda, his complaints essentially amounted to 'mind your own business'.

These scare tactics are simply off the wall conspiracy theories, my advice is stop reading 'Focus on the Family' propaganda literature and protect your kids from what they really need protected from, this extremist fundamentalist backwards counterculture movement you seem to be involved in; heaven forbid we be normal members of society rather than hippie holdovers. ::)

I am not a conspiracy theorist. I don't read 'Focus on the Family' material. I am not a right-wing Republican. In fact, I am not even a Republican. I was raised to love everyone regardless of who they are or what they believe. One of the groomsman in our wedding party was gay. I dated a man who eventually admitted to being gay and continued to be his friend even though he knew I didn't agree with his lifestyle. When I was working as a graphic designer in the bay area I worked well with gay and lesbian designers, photographers, and illustrators so I am not ignorant of their lifestyle and beliefs.

But I was deeply upset when my son, who was in 5th grade at the time, came home and told me that his middle school had shown him a movie advocating the gay lifestyle and gay families as normal. I was especially angry with the covertness used to bring the program to the school by not informing the parents it would happen or give parents the ability to have their child opt out of the program. The lesbian PTA president, along with members of the teaching staff, who are gay, decided that it was in the best interest of the children to order this program for our school but not inform the parents. I find that attitude very arrogant but it is what I have come to label liberal fascism. The idea that a self-anointed elite group of people decide they know what's best for my child even if I as the parent disagree. This attitude has manifested itself in many other forms in the school district my children belong to and it finds its roots in the California Education system. I call it the education system as parent. Anyway, they were able to get the prinicipal and other teachers to buy into it. I guess I wasn't the only parent to call the principal's office to demand to see what the program entailed. The principal quickly curtailed the program because they rely on parent donation dollars to support school programs. He let it be known they would end the program for that year and they would have a parent orientation in the fall so we could see the program first. It never happened.

But what did change was the sex ed program for the 8th graders. They now teach the children in our school it is okay to experiment sexually with people of different genders to find out what your sexual identity is. This program is new so that is why you, being a single male without children, have no clue as to what is really happening in sexual education in California today.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: ozgeorge on June 27, 2007, 05:31:07 PM
Contrary to three warnings I have issued on this thread, it has devolved again by going off topic. You people just can't help yourselves can you? Either use one of the other 20 existing threads on homosexuality or start a new one.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: GiC on June 27, 2007, 06:01:25 PM
Contrary to three warnings I have issued on this thread, it has devolved again by going off topic. You people just can't help yourselves can you? Either use one of the other 20 existing threads on homosexuality or start a new one.

In an indirect way I think the last tangent has helped to answer the initial question, albeit indirectly, why are people on Orthodox forums so obsessed with homoseuxality? The very fact that the arguments are emotional in nature and full of logical fallacies, coming from a 'me against the world' mindset, a martyr complex if you will, reveals much about the psychology that drives this discussion. In short it's an irrational fear arising from repressed sexuality. Take a recent post, objection to a movie that did not try to force people into being gay, but rather addressed the issue in an objective and non-judgmental light, is violently attacked as a radical homosexual agenda. It's fear, irrationality, guilt, and in many cases a very unhealthy view of one's own sexuality using religion and morality as a sword and shield...prozac can only do so much.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Ebor on June 27, 2007, 06:19:49 PM
One thought that occurs to me is that the subject might come up so frequently because it might be an instance of "cheap righteousness", that is the idea that putting up a vehement post from behind the, as it were, shield of a computer screen, may give the writer good feelings that they are taking a stand without dealing with real human beings face to face. 

It is among the topics that I have seen written about with, shall we say, strong words and uncharitable language that do not show any concern for the feelings or empathy with other people.  (for example the "bitter pill" remark, telling someone to do something that the speaker would not and in a cruel way.)  When such a lack of charity is brought up, a very common response is that being polite/charitable/courteous would not *really* be "loving" because the target person would think that being kind meant that whatever it is that they do/are is OK.  That a real "loving" response is the verbal equivalent of a baseball bat or a dead fish up-side the head.   :-\  Then if the other person rejects the post it is all their own fault and responsibility that they are not accepting the True Way(tm) as laid down by the one who was blunt/cruel/uncharitable.  A kind of "I did my part by telling them they were wrong, and have no responsibility for them not accepting my declaration of how they should change."  Cheap righteousness- just words, no effort in dealing with another as a human being, no trying to understand the "Other"  the "Not-like-me".

I hope that that is not too convoluted.  I am not addressing this at any one, just looking at the question of the original post, and offering an idea.

With respect,

Ebor
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on June 27, 2007, 06:42:40 PM
On the Orthodox forums I have posted to the reason homosexuality comes up often usually has to do with changes in laws and education promoted by the homosexual lobby in the United States.

So while I never have hated homosexuals and have been friends with them in the past. I do hate the homosexual political agenda in the state of California because it effects my children. The eighth grade sex ed curriculum advocates that children explore their sexual identity by experimenting. Even the secular parents were up in arms about these recent changes to the curriculum. Love the sinner, hate the sin and the political agenda promoting and celebrating  the sin through public education.
To me, this is the crux of the matter. We must dialogue about the issue of the homosexual agenda in the public school system. I have friend who's a teacher in the PS's and he's told me of the NEA's agenda. Without being insensitive to homosexuals themselves, how do we go about addressing this issue in a loving manner?
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: alice on June 27, 2007, 07:09:39 PM
Dear Tamara,

You are one of the few sane, objective, knowledgeable and charitable voices here on this matter.

Our young people are being sexually corrupted by society, and only those parents who wish to live in a 'fool's paradise' are not aware of this. Sexual corruption, whether homo or heterosexual, is happening in our elementary schools, our high schools, and most especially in the dormitories and classrooms of our colleges and universities, whom we pay top dollar to.

As for homosexuals, I,  too, like gay men and have worked with them in the fashion and interior design industries. Not wanting the 'lifestyle' taught and encouraged to our children has nothing to do with being a right wing kook. or prejudiced.  It has everything to do with being Christian and wanting to adhere to a Christian lifestyle.

Again, thank you for your sane and well written post. It seems that we are both 'cool'  and 'with it' enough mothers to appeal to those who might want to label mothers/and women as knowing not of what they speak.

I am appalled by the way that Calligraphqueen was addressed and labeled. No one should be hurt like that, or be  put on the defensive like that, on a *Christian*  forum.

In Christ our Lord,
Alice






Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: GiC on June 27, 2007, 07:21:47 PM
I am appalled by the way that Calligraphqueen was addressed and labeled. No one should be hurt like that, or be  put on the defensive like that, on a *Christian*  forum.

I wouldn't feel too appalled...if you read her posts you'll see she came out swinging, and swinging pretty low in a few instances.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: ytterbiumanalyst on June 27, 2007, 08:18:44 PM
One thought that occurs to me is that the subject might come up so frequently because it might be an instance of "cheap righteousness", that is the idea that putting up a vehement post from behind the, as it were, shield of a computer screen, may give the writer good feelings that they are taking a stand without dealing with real human beings face to face. 

Wow. What insight. We are fortunate to have such minds on this site. This is the sort of thing I want to see more of.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Tamara on June 28, 2007, 12:53:22 AM
Dear Tamara,

You are one of the few sane, objective, knowledgeable and charitable voices here on this matter.

Our young people are being sexually corrupted by society, and only those parents who wish to live in a 'fool's paradise' are not aware of this. Sexual corruption, whether homo or heterosexual, is happening in our elementary schools, our high schools, and most especially in the dormitories and classrooms of our colleges and universities, whom we pay top dollar to.

As for homosexuals, I,  too, like gay men and have worked with them in the fashion and interior design industries. Not wanting the 'lifestyle' taught and encouraged to our children has nothing to do with being a right wing kook. or prejudiced.  It has everything to do with being Christian and wanting to adhere to a Christian lifestyle.

Again, thank you for your sane and well written post. It seems that we are both 'cool'  and 'with it' enough mothers to appeal to those who might want to label mothers/and women as knowing not of what they speak.

I am appalled by the way that Calligraphqueen was addressed and labeled. No one should be hurt like that, or be  put on the defensive like that, on a *Christian*  forum.

In Christ our Lord,
Alice


Thank you Alice for your kind words. I have the highest respect for Calligraphyqueen. She also has the added burden of raising a large family with one child who has a genetic disorder. Her life sounds very difficult. It seems the new group of people who are not shown tolerance are former evangelical Orthodox moms who raise large families and homeschool their children. I have several good friends who match that description. I have the highest respect for them and admire the fine children they have raised into devout Orthodox Christian adults. I guess any group of people can be demonized.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: ozgeorge on June 28, 2007, 06:00:26 AM
One thought that occurs to me is that the subject might come up so frequently because it might be an instance of "cheap righteousness", that is the idea that putting up a vehement post from behind the, as it were, shield of a computer screen, may give the writer good feelings that they are taking a stand without dealing with real human beings face to face. 
I second ytterbiumanalyst: Excellent point. And on reflection, it seems to me that most subjects on this forum are an opportunity for "cheap righteousness".

It is among the topics that I have seen written about with, shall we say, strong words and uncharitable language that do not show any concern for the feelings or empathy with other people.
This is something which I have tried to say again and again! Here's the last time I said it:
This isn't an accusation, but rather an examination of why we do the things we do. Why is it that we feel we can say things tactlessly in a public forum available to anyone on the internet, yet would be more tactful in person? Why should the anonymity of an internet forum make any difference to how we behave towards others as Christians? Do we think that we will not be held accountable on the Day of Judgement for what we have said on this forum simply because we typed it into a computer?
"Virtual life" troubles me. The idea that we are somehow allowed to be a "different person" online to the one who was baptised a Christian when we are in internet forums simply because we go by a username rather than our baptisimal name is hersesy as far as I can see. We can only have one hypostasis, not two.

Personally, I think we will all be held even more accountable for what we say on internet forums because:

a) Each of us who claims to be an Orthodox Christian is an Ambassador for Christ to everyone who reads this forum. We will be held to account for any soul that is lost because of what we have said.

b) We could say something sinful here, and our lives on earth might end before we have a chance to retract it or modify our post or ask forgiveness from those we have offended. Our written word continues to live even after we're dead.

c) Our audience is much wider, and the damage our sin can do is therefore increased.



When such a lack of charity is brought up, a very common response is that being polite/charitable/courteous would not *really* be "loving" because the target person would think that being kind meant that whatever it is that they do/are is OK.  That a real "loving" response is the verbal equivalent of a baseball bat or a dead fish up-side the head.   :-\  Then if the other person rejects the post it is all their own fault and responsibility that they are not accepting the True Way(tm) as laid down by the one who was blunt/cruel/uncharitable.  A kind of "I did my part by telling them they were wrong, and have no responsibility for them not accepting my declaration of how they should change."  Cheap righteousness- just words, no effort in dealing with another as a human being, no trying to understand the "Other"  the "Not-like-me".
So true...so true....
As soon as anyone says "love the sinner but hate the sin" on Christian forums, alarm bells go off in my head, because they never express love for the "sinner" even when they have repented from their sin and valiantly struggle with their passion. It's like when someone begins a sentence with the words "With all due respect..." More often than not, they actually mean the exact opposite. I never see the "love for the sinner" being expressed in the "love-the-sinner-but-hate-the-sin" approach. All that I ever see is the "hate for the sin"; which is usually delivered with an air of self-righteousness combined with a pinch of false humility. And when it becomes rude, patronizing, ascerbic etc., then they start revealing their true colours in their hatred for the sinner also, and "love the sinner but hate the sin" is revealed as nothing more than a meaningless platitude.
I'd love to ask these "love the sinner but hate the sin" people how many sinners they have actually managed to bring to Christ using their method.
If anyone is interested in looking at genuine love which actually has brought people to Christ, while at the same time, upholding the teachings of the Church, then they may want to have a read of this thread: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,7154.0.html (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,7154.0.html)
That thread (to date) is the best example I've ever seen of "speaking the truth in love" on this forum.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on June 29, 2007, 01:21:31 AM
As soon as anyone says "love the sinner but hate the sin" on Christian forums, alarm bells go off in my head, because they never express love for the "sinner" even when they have repented from their sin and valiantly struggle with their passion.
I confess that this is a subject that I don't know yet *how* to deal with. Raised in an extremely conservative religious town in an extremely conservative religious part of the country, I've never personally known a gay person (that I know of), and so I've never before needed to deal with it. Now there are more and more people 'coming out' so to speak, and it's something that I'm confronted with almost daily. Where I presently work at is primarily dominated by a 'good ol boy' rural mentality that typically isn't overly receptive to anyone not White or Christian, let alone homosexuals (I know I know- how can one be Christian and rascist...) I don't want to sound callous or insensitive re: this subject, but I just don't know how to deal with it. Believe me, I am trying (through prayer and reading) to be more understanding and loving. I really hope I haven't offended anyone by my posts, I truly apologize if I have.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: PeterTheAleut on June 29, 2007, 01:30:02 AM
I don't want to sound callous or insensitive re: this subject, but I just don't know how to deal with it.
I understand quite well where you're coming from.  I needed a few years to learn how to deal with a close friend's revelation that he was gay.

Tying this in with the OP by connecting this thought to something someone else said:  it's all too easy (and therefore cowardly) to think that one can deal with someone's struggles with homosexual attraction by hiding behind a written letter, an e-mail, or a post on an internet forum, because face-to-face interaction with the person is avoided.  I know; I've done it before.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Tamara on June 29, 2007, 01:48:39 AM
I confess that this is a subject that I don't know yet *how* to deal with. Raised in an extremely conservative religious town in an extremely conservative religious part of the country, I've never personally known a gay person (that I know of), and so I've never before needed to deal with it. Now there are more and more people 'coming out' so to speak, and it's something that I'm confronted with almost daily. Where I presently work at is primarily dominated by a 'good ol boy' rural mentality that typically isn't overly receptive to anyone not White or Christian, let alone homosexuals (I know I know- how can one be Christian and rascist...) I don't want to sound callous or insensitive re: this subject, but I just don't know how to deal with it. Believe me, I am trying (through prayer and reading) to be more understanding and loving. I really hope I haven't offended anyone by my posts, I truly apologize if I have.

Just treat gay people like you would want to be treated.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: ozgeorge on June 29, 2007, 10:31:52 AM
I confess that this is a subject that I don't know yet *how* to deal with.
I think that's the first and most important step towards understanding how to deal with anything.
The next step, I think, is trying to make a connection with something in my own experience. For example, I know what it's like to crave a cigarette even though I know that smoking them does me damage. But no amount of public health warnings was ever able to stop me smoking. I even worked in palliative care with people dying of lung cancer and emphysema, and even that didn't stop me smoking. My Mother (God rest her) called it "the incense of the devil" and my Father (God rest him) once got me to take a $10 note out of my wallet and burned it in front of me saying "It would be better if you burned your money this way!"- and even that didn't stop me!
After a period of some years with my current Confessor, and having dealt with some more pressing spiritual matters, he got me to start looking at my nicotine addiction, not as something to be eliminated, but rather, as an opportunity for spiritual growth. Rather than listing all the reasons why I shouldn't smoke (which I knew anyway), he got me to start looking at the possibility of learning live with nicotine craving, and using it as a way of coming closer to God. As St. Anthony the Great says: "Whoever has not experienced temptation cannot enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Without temptations no-one can be saved.'
If we think of smoking as sinful and morally wrong, then nicotine craving is the passion and is morally neutral. This is the Orthodox understanding of the difference between "passion" and "sin".
Similarly, homosexual orientation is the passion (and therefore morally neutral) while homosexual acts are the sin, and morally wrong. As a psychologist, I think that this Orthodox view offers the only way out of what is termed "Ego-Dystonic Homosexuality". In the Diagnostic Manual we use to  diagnose mental illness, homosexuality is not a mental disorder unless the homosexual themselves considers it to be disorder, that is, their homosexuality is dystonic to their own self identity. Now, among some Protestant and Catholic groups, the current "treatment" for ego-dystonic homosexuality such as "Courage International" and "Exodus International" is "reparative therapy", that is "reorienting" the sexual attraction. The problem with this is it just doesn't work. I personally know of two members of "Exodus International" who have committed suicide (one after having entered a hetrosexual marriage as part of his "reorientation"). It's boloney. It would be like myself trying to give up smoking by pretending that my very powerful cravings for cigarettes don't exist. Let me tell you, they darn well do exist!
With it's keen understanding of how the passions work and how to manage them, Orthodoxy offers a way out of homosexual behaviour while not attempting to deny the existence of homosexual orientation. It offers another option- yes, a difficult one, but an option nonetheless, and that is the martyric path of chastity. And St. John Climakos in "The Ladder of Divine Assent" makes this keen observation in Step 15:24:
"Do not expect to overthrow the demon of fornication with refutations and pleadings. For, with nature on his side, he has the best of the argument."
Orthodoxy acknowledges that, in demanding that the People of God avoid fornication (whether heterosexually or homosexually) she is demanding something which goes against nature. In other words, she acknowledges that yes, the desire is there, but that we are not to act on it. This is a big ask, and St. John Climacus acknowledges this when he says in Step 15:7:
"Let no one thoroughly trained in purity attribute its attainment to himself. For it is impossible for anyone to conquer his own nature. When nature is defeated, it should be recognised that this is due to the presence of Him Who is above nature. For beyond all dispute, the weaker gives way to the Stronger."
So, rather than continually rattle off the same stuff about "homosexual agendas" and "homosexual sin" that occur on every Christian forum, why don't we offer on an Orthodox forum the unique perspective that yes, homosexual orientation exists, just as the desire to fornicate or be an adulterer exists, and these are "natural", but even this does not mean that acting on these "natural desires" is morally neutral. And even more importantly, we can offer the uniquely Orthodox understanding of the difference between passion and sin which may offer homosexuals a way out of having to act on their desires, while at the same time not attempting to deny that their desires exist.
But if the only thing we have to offer is the same old hackneyed thing that one sees on every Christian forum such as "God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" then what's the point? No one's gonna listen, it's the same rubbish they get everywhere.
We cannot tell people outside the Church how to live their sexual lives. And with nature on their side (as St. John Clmacus points out) they'd laugh us to scorn. All we can do is bear witness to another way, and offer it as an alternative.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Αριστοκλής on June 29, 2007, 10:49:39 AM
Wow!

"ozgeorge, the New Theologian"

Impressive
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Punch on June 29, 2007, 11:00:12 AM
Wow!

"ozgeorge, the New Theologian"

Impressive

Yes, most impressive.  And very well stated.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Schultz on June 29, 2007, 11:21:54 AM
Wow!

"ozgeorge, the New Theologian"

Impressive

I totally agree!  That's incredibly impressive, ozgeorge.  I've never seen it put that way before, at least so succinctly and clearly, tying in not only St. John Climacus (which should impress anyone with the slightest inclination to Eastern theology) but also making a great point at the end regarding "another way".
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: observer on June 29, 2007, 03:10:20 PM
I think what riles most decent people is the normalization of Sodomy.  The organized Gay mafia (a minority with a big voice) is an attack on family.  Sodomy, narcissism, fornication and adultery are sins that need to be confessed.  Of course we should condemn the sin not the sinner.  However the Epistles warn us what will happen to those unrepentant sexual deviants - sad, but that's free will.   It is curious that smoking is now an international sin - due to be banned on planet earth, yet sexual deviency is simply a matter of choice.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: PeterTheAleut on June 29, 2007, 06:38:04 PM
I think what riles most decent people is the normalization of Sodomy.  The organized Gay mafia (a minority with a big voice) is an attack on family.  Sodomy, narcissism, fornication and adultery are sins that need to be confessed.  Of course we should condemn the sin not the sinner.  However the Epistles warn us what will happen to those unrepentant sexual deviants - sad, but that's free will.   It is curious that smoking is now an international sin - due to be banned on planet earth, yet sexual deviency is simply a matter of choice.

Have you not been reading this thread, Observer?  What you've just done is provide us the perfect example of how NOT to speak the truth in love, how to condemn the sinner together with the sin.  You focus so much on condemning homosexual behavior that you think it equally important to show how gays will be punished with everlasting fire.  How is it loving to call gays sexual deviants?  This is not love.  This is self-righteous judgment.  How can you say that your righteousness is greater than that of the gay man?  Do you--does any one of us--have such control of your anger that you can ever separate your "zeal for truth" from your own base passion of anger?  Is "righteous indignation" such as you show here ever truly righteous?
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on June 30, 2007, 12:32:23 AM

 I think we're finally reaching a point on this forum where genuine Christian dialogue is taking place (re: this subject at least). I would like to hear from folks on this forum who are struggling with this passion (providing they're comfortable in doing so). I think us hetero's discussing this issue with each other is helpful, but hearing from those folks who struggle with it can provide an insider's insight.
 Those of you who are trying to overcome it and deal with it, do you see our culture's acceptance of homosexuality as something that's helpful in your struggle, or do you see it as a setback. It seems to me that it could be both. On the one hand, we're talking and discussing it openly and with maturity these days (as opposed to 10-15 years ago). Yet on the other hand, it seems that it could be a hindrance if one is truly trying to overcome it and deal with it (with every media outlet telling you that it's natural and nothing wrong with it). This analogy, BTW, can be used with heterosexuals as well. We're all constantly being barraged with sex through almost every form of media. 
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: ozgeorge on June 30, 2007, 01:41:39 AM
I think we're finally reaching a point on this forum where genuine Christian dialogue is taking place (re: this subject at least).
I don't want to sound too negative, but if I've learned anything in participating on Christian forums, it's that they never "finally reach a point" on anything. There will always be new members who will not bother to read what has been discussed in the past, and the discussion has to start all over again.  That's just the nature of forums. And I dare say that our older, homosexual-oriented posters have seen this time and time again, so they cannot be blamed for not wanting to go through it again.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on June 30, 2007, 03:18:11 AM
I don't want to sound too negative, but if I've learned anything in participating on Christian forums, it's that they never "finally reach a point" on anything. There will always be new members who will not bother to read what has been discussed in the past, and the discussion has to start all over again.  That's just the nature of forums. And I dare say that our older, homosexual-oriented posters have seen this time and time again, so they cannot be blamed for not wanting to go through it again.
Yes, I agree it can get tiresome. However, since we know that this will inevetably happen again, rather than throw our arms up in the air and showing agitation (and I'm not refering to anyone here- just generally speaking), just post the relevant threads for them to look read. Then, when they have questions or comments, try to guide them in love to a more mature, Christian perspective. I mean, it worked for me afterall.  ;)

And as far as the older, homosexual-oriented posters go, when they speak up on these threads it suddenly gives pause to the other posters. I for one, didn't expect there to be any homosexuals on the OC.net. Naive? Yes. Sobering? Very. Suddenly we were no longer talking about sinners, but talking to other humans who had their own passions they were/are struggling with. I hope I'm making sense here.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: ozgeorge on June 30, 2007, 03:23:40 AM
Yes, I agree it can get tiresome. However, since we know that this will inevetably happen again, rather than throw our arms up in the air and showing agitation (and I'm not refering to anyone here- just generally speaking), just post the relevant threads for them to look read. Then, when they have questions or comments, try to guide them in love to a more mature, Christian perspective. I mean, it worked for me afterall.  ;)
You know, that might just very well work!
It certainly seems to have worked for the topic of mensturation which also kept coming up again and again: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9448.0.html (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9448.0.html).
Thanks for the suggestion, I'll talk it over with Fr. Chris and the other moderators!
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Ebor on June 30, 2007, 06:42:19 PM
I think that's the first and most important step towards understanding how to deal with anything.
The next step, I think, is trying to make a connection with something in my own experience. ....

I cut it to save crunchons, but this is a wonderful post,  OzGeorge, and I'm going to read it over again.

Ebor
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: ozgeorge on July 03, 2007, 09:30:17 PM
MODERATION:
I have split off the tangential discussion on STD's and fornication into this thread:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12052.0.html
George

EDIT: I'm temporarily locking this topic for a few hours until the people who wish to discuss STD's and fornication read this moderatorial post and realise where they should be posting!

EDIT2: OK, I think people got the point now. I'm unlocking this thread again.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: ozgeorge on June 05, 2008, 06:03:11 PM
It's now a toss-up between the Prozac theory and closet case theory.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: ytterbiumanalyst on June 05, 2008, 07:14:07 PM
Oh, if you add the two Prozac options together, that one wins by a landslide. Can you write prescriptions, George?
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Papist on June 05, 2008, 09:59:48 PM
It probably comes up alot because secular society is trying to normalize homosexuality and, at this point in history, appears to be succeeding.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: ialmisry on June 05, 2008, 10:11:33 PM
We don't have 'people with two arms and two legs rights groups' either...what's the point? 95% of the population has premarital sex, society already approves of this activity (or at least 95% of society has demonstrated by their actions that they approve of it, of those 95% who feign not to, they're hypocrites).

Only in backwards states dominated by evangelical protestants where it's still acceptable to marry your first cousin. Here in California (as in much of the west) we have community property, in case of divorce everyone gets half of all community property, it's a simple matter of civil (as opposed to common) law.

Sorry, Greeki.  Louisiana (last I checked it's dominated by evangelical protestants, and no, you can't marry your cousin there.  Btw, you can do that in as blue a State as Illinois, home of our own Mr. Obama.  You can't, btw, marry your cousin in Illinois and move to Lousiana and have it recognized.  It's an absolute nullity) is the only state with civil law, and even that is mixed, due to being attatched to the U.S.  Everyone else is common law.  And the matter isn't that simple, as the amounts that divorce lawyers rake in shows.

It probably comes up alot because secular society is trying to normalize homosexuality and, at this point in history, appears to be succeeding.

Yes.  Depravity has become a sign of sophistication.  Did so in Rome.  We know how that went (or should know).

Why can't this answer be a possibility in the poll?  None of the rest of the options come even close to expressing my belief.  Not I think a serious attempt was being made to represent the people who have made negative statements about homosexual acts.

The thought police can't handle that possibilty, upsets their smug little universe.

Perhaps they are just closet conservatives? ::)

So in other words, if you're not homeschooling half a dozen kids, you don't have anything worthwhile to say. ::)

Having been in high school and junior high and all not terribly long ago, I don't recall anything that would remotely resemble some sort of "homosexual educational agenda."  Even in college, the only time I encountered anything close to that was the small gay-rights group on campus when they sponsored coming out day and most people just thought that was silly.

I'm assuming you went to school in Texas, or a similar red state.

I teach in a high school in Illinois.  Yes, it's an issue.

In an indirect way I think the last tangent has helped to answer the initial question, albeit indirectly, why are people on Orthodox forums so obsessed with homoseuxality? The very fact that the arguments are emotional in nature and full of logical fallacies, coming from a 'me against the world' mindset, a martyr complex if you will, reveals much about the psychology that drives this discussion. In short it's an irrational fear arising from repressed sexuality. Take a recent post, objection to a movie that did not try to force people into being gay, but rather addressed the issue in an objective and non-judgmental light, is violently attacked as a radical homosexual agenda. It's fear, irrationality, guilt, and in many cases a very unhealthy view of one's own sexuality using religion and morality as a sword and shield...prozac can only do so much.
.

Closet conservative.  Definitely.

To tie this all into the topic: it comes up because this is the only vice, condemned as such by the Church, that it seems that those who claim to be Orthodox will go out and defend.  Besides Greeki, I don't see any threads advocating fornication, adultery, etc... or theft, blasphemy, lying, killing etc.  Perhaps if you did, there would be more threads on these other vices.  And because they are defending something that the Church specifically condemns, they 1. have to portray themselves as the vanguard of the new dispensation 2. condemn those who refuse to be "enlightened" as backwards, ignorant, etc. or any other ad hominem handy (that's a logical fallacy, Greeki).  It would be interesting to explore the psychology of those so affected.  Maybe I should post a poll: diagnosis by skewed polling seems fun.

perhaps a better comparision would be the amount of Orthodox posters on sites under Rome, on the issue of annullments.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: SolEX01 on June 05, 2008, 10:59:38 PM
How about "None of the above?"

I would vote if I had that choice.  None of the other choices are that appealing to me.   ::)
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on June 05, 2008, 11:09:35 PM
It probably comes up alot because secular society is trying to normalize homosexuality and, at this point in history, appears to be succeeding.
Bingo!  Papist, your finger's on the pulse of the matter.  But, if I may, add another observation?  A tiny minority of Orthodox have began to buy into the 'civil rights' angle of the argument and hopped right up on the rainbow wagon with all the rest of the left-wing fruitloops while the rest of us can't abide.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: ialmisry on June 05, 2008, 11:09:49 PM
Bingo!  Papist, you got your finger on the pulse of the matter. 

Yes, the pulse of the aorta.

How about "None of the above?"

I would vote if I had that choice.  None of the other choices are that appealing to me.   ::)

You don't get it.  When the liberal wants your opinion, he'll give it to you.

The herd of independent minds.  Think what ever you like, as long as you agree with them.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: GiC on June 05, 2008, 11:10:00 PM
Sorry, Greeki.  Louisiana (last I checked it's dominated by evangelical protestants, and no, you can't marry your cousin there.  Btw, you can do that in as blue a State as Illinois, home of our own Mr. Obama.  You can't, btw, marry your cousin in Illinois and move to Lousiana and have it recognized.  It's an absolute nullity) is the only state with civil law, and even that is mixed, due to being attatched to the U.S.  Everyone else is common law.  And the matter isn't that simple, as the amounts that divorce lawyers rake in shows.

Ummm...our Marriage law is derived from Mexican law which ultimately came from the Visigothic Code...and I never said we were a civil law jurisdiction, only that this element of our legal system (as well as a small number of other cases) is based in civil law.

Quote
Closet conservative.  Definitely.

Libertarianism to be more percise. No action can possibly be wrong or immoral if it does not deprive another individual of their life, liberty, or property.

Quote
To tie this all into the topic: it comes up because this is the only vice, condemned as such by the Church, that it seems that those who claim to be Orthodox will go out and defend.  Besides Greeki, I don't see any threads advocating fornication, adultery, etc... or theft, blasphemy, lying, killing etc.

You sure about that? I have stated time and time again that there is absolutely nothing wrong with fornication. As for adultery, while it may be damaging to the relationship as it does not deprive an individual of life, liberty, or property it would be beyond absurd to legally restrict it. As for theft, that generally does deprive another individual of their property, but even then some have accused me of advocating it for my support of fair use. Blasphemy...give me a break...the gods should be able to defend themselves, it's comical (and at the same time really quite quaint) that anyone would even be concerned about it; if it is legislated against, such legislation is tryannical, an evil beyond all other evils. As for lying, it depends on the context, of course, few would argue that perjury is acceptable as it undermines our system of jurisprudence but telling a fat person they're skinny or an ugly person they're attractive is just polite. Oh, and as for killing, of course it depends on the context, most everyone believes in cases where killing is acceptable, personally I'm all for abortion, war, execution in some instances, and genocide (j/k about the last one ;)).

In the end your moral code is simply overly simplistic and laughable.

Quote
Perhaps if you did, there would be more threads on these other vices.  And because they are defending something that the Church specifically condemns, they 1. have to portray themselves as the vanguard of the new dispensation 2. condemn those who refuse to be "enlightened" as backwards, ignorant, etc. or any other ad hominem handy (that's a logical fallacy, Greeki).  It would be interesting to explore the psychology of those so affected.  Maybe I should post a poll: diagnosis by skewed polling seems fun.

In the end, I don't really care what the Church has said in the past, she has changed her views before and no doubt will again. While there is a fundamentalist wing that wants to return to the 'golden age' of the fourth century the hierarchy is a bit more pragmatic; it will change with the times, recognizing the danger of not doing so. Plus, fortunately the insistence on Episcopal Celibacy has ensured that the homosexual lobby will always have a powerful and significant influence at the highest levels of ecclesiastical governance...you're a bit out of luck with this one. ;)
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: ialmisry on June 06, 2008, 12:14:05 AM
Ummm...our Marriage law is derived from Mexican law which ultimately came from the Visigothic Code
A quick LexisNexis search didn't reveal that.  Wrong again? (I'm willing to see proof of your assertion.  In the constitutional convention the gringos outnumbered others Californios 6 to 1.  The Californios disappeared).

Quote
...and I never said we were a civil law jurisdiction, only that this element of our legal system (as well as a small number of other cases) is based in civil law.

Wrong again:
CALIFORNIA CIVIL CODE  DEFINITIONS AND SOURCES OF LAW
Cal Civ Code § 22.2 (2007) § 22.2.  Common law as rule of decision: The common law of England, so far as it is not repugnant to or inconsistent with the Constitution of the United States, or the Constitution or laws of this State, is the rule of decision in all the courts of this State.

There is no such thing, per se, as civil law.  It is the procedure (and the associated issues like burden of proof, etc.) which distinguishes civil and criminal law.  The distinction evaporates, for instance, in the question of child support, where it is a private interest but the state enforces (and in many jurisdictions, collects) it.  The distinction does help divorce courts to dispense with all those guarentees, like the ban on debtors prison, that other courts have to deal with.


Quote
Libertarianism to be more percise. No action can possibly be wrong or immoral if it does not deprive another individual of their life, liberty, or property.

What do you call a cheap liberal?  A libertarian.

Quote
You sure about that? I have stated time and time again that there is absolutely nothing wrong with fornication.


Hence why I brought you up.

Quote
As for adultery, while it may be damaging to the relationship as it does not deprive an individual of life, liberty, or property it would be beyond absurd to legally restrict it.

Wrong again.  Wade through the case law on divorce.

Quote
As for theft, that generally does deprive another individual of their property, but even then some have accused me of advocating it for my support of fair use.

Wrong again. 

Quote
Blasphemy...give me a break...the gods should be able to defend themselves, it's comical (and at the same time really quite quaint) that anyone would even be concerned about it; if it is legislated against, such legislation is tryannical, an evil beyond all other evils.


Wrong again, spouting dogma yet again against dogma.

Quote
As for lying, it depends on the context, of course, few would argue that perjury is acceptable as it undermines our system of jurisprudence

Wrong again.  Again, wade through the divorce case law, but other sources would prove a rich treasure trove of perjury.

Quote
but telling a fat person they're skinny or an ugly person they're attractive is just polite.


Wrong again.  Compliment them on good qualities they do possess (looking at the positive might be a new experience for you, I understand).


Quote
Oh, and as for killing, of course it depends on the context, most everyone believes in cases where killing is acceptable, personally I'm all for abortion, war, execution in some instances, and genocide


Wrong again.  Why only "some instance."

Quote
(j/k about the last one ;)).

Wrong again, or is that lying? ;)

Quote
In the end your moral code is simply overly simplistic

Wrong again. Apply Occam's razor...

 
Quote
and laughable.

...then again, maybe don't.  Wouldn't want you to cut yourself on sharp objects. (I notice you didn't include suicide in your list of acceptable killing).

Quote
In the end, I don't really care what the Church has said in the past,


how about the present?

Quote
she has changed her views before

yes, this mantra doesn't seem to have worked, despite repetition.


 
Quote
and no doubt will again.


you have just exceeded the empirical evidence you tout.

Quote
While there is a fundamentalist wing that wants to return


Return? When did it leave?

Quote
to the 'golden age' of the fourth century the hierarchy is a bit more pragmatic;


Yes, that's why the EP is head hiearch.


Quote
it will change with the times,


You mean Alexei will be moved to the top of the dyptichs?  He's even more down on the topic at hand: remember the priest the PoM defrocked and the Church bulldozed when a gay "marriage" took place?

Quote
recognizing the danger of not doing so.

Fortunately, so far they have recognized the danger of doing so.


Quote
Plus, fortunately the insistence on Episcopal Celibacy has ensured that the homosexual lobby will always have a powerful and significant influence at the highest levels of ecclesiastical governance...you're a bit out of luck with this one. ;)
I actually have inside information on this.  No, it hasn't changed things a bit.

Of course the fallacy celibacy=homosexuality is also how many make the claim that history has been "straightened" out.  Of course the Church's praise of celibacy is that it is not of this world.  Hence, I don't expect you to understand.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: SolEX01 on June 06, 2008, 12:30:59 AM
You don't get it.  When the liberal wants your opinion, he'll give it to you.

The herd of independent minds.  Think what ever you like, as long as you agree with them.

I didn't agree with the options.   ;D
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: ialmisry on June 06, 2008, 12:35:27 AM
I didn't agree with the options.   ;D

There you go again, thinking for yourself, and without apology!  The audacity ;)
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Riddikulus on June 06, 2008, 04:12:25 AM
his complaints essentially amounted to 'mind your own business'.

If only people could just learn to do that.

Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Riddikulus on June 06, 2008, 04:26:40 AM
I personally believe that this topic comes up so often because of lack of compassion for those foibles that are not our own; or those we are working to overthrow because "we have seen the light". It always amazes me that a new Christian will be the biggest sinner on the block on Friday night; "come to the Lord" on Saturday; shout it to the rooftops on Sunday; and then go out and condemn his/her fellow sinners on Monday - often those they were sinning with on Friday night. What amazes me even more is that some Christians don't move from that spot. It's like they hate to see freewill in action.



Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Riddikulus on June 06, 2008, 04:31:38 AM
One thought that occurs to me is that the subject might come up so frequently because it might be an instance of "cheap righteousness", that is the idea that putting up a vehement post from behind the, as it were, shield of a computer screen, may give the writer good feelings that they are taking a stand without dealing with real human beings face to face. 

It is among the topics that I have seen written about with, shall we say, strong words and uncharitable language that do not show any concern for the feelings or empathy with other people.  (for example the "bitter pill" remark, telling someone to do something that the speaker would not and in a cruel way.)  When such a lack of charity is brought up, a very common response is that being polite/charitable/courteous would not *really* be "loving" because the target person would think that being kind meant that whatever it is that they do/are is OK.  That a real "loving" response is the verbal equivalent of a baseball bat or a dead fish up-side the head.   :-\  Then if the other person rejects the post it is all their own fault and responsibility that they are not accepting the True Way(tm) as laid down by the one who was blunt/cruel/uncharitable.  A kind of "I did my part by telling them they were wrong, and have no responsibility for them not accepting my declaration of how they should change."  Cheap righteousness- just words, no effort in dealing with another as a human being, no trying to understand the "Other"  the "Not-like-me".

I hope that that is not too convoluted.  I am not addressing this at any one, just looking at the question of the original post, and offering an idea.

With respect,

Ebor

<deafening applause>
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: ytterbiumanalyst on June 06, 2008, 08:11:41 AM
I personally believe that this topic comes up so often because of lack of compassion for those foibles that are not our own; or those we are working to overthrow because "we have seen the light". It always amazes me that a new Christian will be the biggest sinner on the block on Friday night; "come to the Lord" on Saturday; shout it to the rooftops on Sunday; and then go out and condemn his/her fellow sinners on Monday - often those they were sinning with on Friday night. What amazes me even more is that some Christians don't move from that spot. It's like they hate to see freewill in action.
Well said!

Homosexuality is a struggle for all of us, whether those who struggle with same-sex attraction itself or we who struggle not to condemn those who do. So many find it so easy to quote St. Paul's condemnation of homosexuality, but they forget Jesus' words, "Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you” (Luke 6:37-38). Being a sinner myself, I certainly would rather be forgiven than condemned for my struggles. Therefore, I should do the same for others. Is that not what our Lord called the greatest commandment?
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Papist on June 06, 2008, 09:45:11 AM
Honestly I don't think that homosexuality comes up over and over again just because everyone hates gays. As I said before, the reason that homosexuality comes up is that our society has made it an issue. For over about thrity to forty years, active homosexuals have been pushing an agenda to bring homosexuality out into the open and present the homosexual life style as a normal and viable alternative to the heterosexuality. Before this sixties, this was nearly unheard of. Homosexuality was quite rightly viewed as a disorder, sinful, and unhealhty. The big change in the way our society views the matter and has continually brought it to the forfront of discussion over the past few decades has made homosexuality a big political topic of conversation that it simply was not in the past. This is not the fault of Christians, Orthodox, Catholic, or otherwise, but rather the society at large that has made the issue so "important". Since Christian ethics rejects homosexuality, Christians now are forced to deal with an issue that secular culture is basically shoving in everyone's face whether they like it or not. If anyone really wants to point a finger for making the homosexual agenda an issue they should not be pointing a finger at Christians who are responding to a matter becuase of their faith. Rather, point the finger at those who continue to force the issue.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Heorhij on June 06, 2008, 09:45:11 AM
Well said!

Homosexuality is a struggle for all of us, whether those who struggle with same-sex attraction itself or we who struggle not to condemn those who do. So many find it so easy to quote St. Paul's condemnation of homosexuality, but they forget Jesus' words, "Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you” (Luke 6:37-38). Being a sinner myself, I certainly would rather be forgiven than condemned for my struggles. Therefore, I should do the same for others. Is that not what our Lord called the greatest commandment?

I agree, of course, but, unfortunately, there is another verse in the New Testament that is often quoted by bigots: 1 Cor. 2:15, "but he, who is spiritual, judges all things (in some translations, "everything," or "all that exists," i.e. people as well), yet he himself is rightly judged by no one." Naturally, bigots always know that they are "spiritual..." Also, I heard some people very seriously say that Christ's words prohibiting to judge were addressed to those whom He knew as hypocrites; for example, Judas the Iskariot was most definitely present during the Sermon of the Mount...

Ah, Scripture, Scripture, wonderful Scripture. What a great stick to beat one's opponent on the head till he dies. :(
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: livefreeordie on June 06, 2008, 09:52:06 AM
All the above reasons may very well be true, but it seems to me that it comes up so much because the topic gets shoved down our throat.  In my daily life, I never hear anyone bring it up. I work with straight people, homosexual people, christian people, people unmarried living together, muslim people, basically every sort of belief and value you can imagine(lot of interesting people in advertising) and we all get along well.  Very well in fact.  But when you get people on court house steps and making headlines about gay marriage, gay adoption, hellfire, carrying signs invoking God's judgement, etc. I don't see how it's any surprise that people would then be talking about it.  And since it is something that most people either don't understand or don't agree with, for most I don't think bringing it up is anything evil or judgemental, it's just kinda, "Hey, that doesn't seem quite right."

Now my rant for the day. As with most issues like this, it's the people pointing fingers on both sides, calling each other judgemental, etc. that blows this topic up and in a sense makes everyone passing judgement in both directions a hypocrite. You've got your red necks, you've got your militant homosexuals, you've got your right wing zealots, you've got your holier than thou liberals.  I wish they would just fight it out in a locked room. 

Modified to remove an acronym referring to a profane expression.  I know that you meant nothing wrong by it.  Let's try to avoid profanity or reference to it whenever possible.  Thanks.  Pravoslavbob.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: livefreeordie on June 06, 2008, 10:06:09 AM
Oh, and to stir the pot and refer to the poll.  Reading these posts, in general, it seems that those who get the most worked up and most in need of Prozac are the ones saying, "Who are you to cast the first stone, who are you to judge, etc.!"   ;)


We should have this poll:

What is the most quoted scripture we throw down when people do or say something we don't like and use scripture to back up the position we don't like:
1) Judge not lest ye be judged.
2) Take the log out of your own eye.
3) Ye without sin cast the first stone.
4) etc.  :o

and when you are on the other side of the coin:

What is the most quoted scripture when you don't agree with someone's behavior and want to smack them down:
1) Any verse that say "don't do this"


The most intriguing thing to me about life, scriptures, the church, etc. are all the dichotomies we have to work through.  Their are plenty of verses that tell us not to judge, but their are just as many judging and giving us criteria to judge.  God created everything, except for evil. Turn the other cheek, but tear down the money changers. Love your brother as yourself, but walk away from said brother if you need to to follow Christ. Etc., etc.

The dichotomies are really why we argue so much on this stuff.  There is a side of the coin that agrees with all of us.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Papist on June 06, 2008, 10:09:06 AM
I didn't vote since I don't agree with the options. Which one is winning?
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Papist on June 06, 2008, 10:09:06 AM
I wish they would just fight it out in a locked room.  
Could it be ninja batle? I'd pay to see that.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: livefreeordie on June 06, 2008, 10:09:59 AM
I agree, of course, but, unfortunately, there is another verse in the New Testament that is often quoted by bigots: 1 Cor. 2:15, "but he, who is spiritual, judges all things (in some translations, "everything," or "all that exists," i.e. people as well), yet he himself is rightly judged by no one." Naturally, bigots always know that they are "spiritual..." Also, I heard some people very seriously say that Christ's words prohibiting to judge were addressed to those whom He knew as hypocrites; for example, Judas the Iskariot was most definitely present during the Sermon of the Mount...

Ah, Scripture, Scripture, wonderful Scripture. What a great stick to beat one's opponent on the head till he dies. :(

Great post George!
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: ytterbiumanalyst on June 06, 2008, 10:16:45 AM
I agree.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Amdetsion on June 06, 2008, 02:11:02 PM
Dear Tamara,

You are one of the few sane, objective, knowledgeable and charitable voices here on this matter.

Our young people are being sexually corrupted by society, and only those parents who wish to live in a 'fool's paradise' are not aware of this. Sexual corruption, whether homo or heterosexual, is happening in our elementary schools, our high schools, and most especially in the dormitories and classrooms of our colleges and universities, whom we pay top dollar to.

As for homosexuals, I,  too, like gay men and have worked with them in the fashion and interior design industries. Not wanting the 'lifestyle' taught and encouraged to our children has nothing to do with being a right wing kook. or prejudiced.  It has everything to do with being Christian and wanting to adhere to a Christian lifestyle.

Again, thank you for your sane and well written post. It seems that we are both 'cool'  and 'with it' enough mothers to appeal to those who might want to label mothers/and women as knowing not of what they speak.

I am appalled by the way that Calligraphqueen was addressed and labeled. No one should be hurt like that, or be  put on the defensive like that, on a *Christian*  forum.

In Christ our Lord,
Alice








Thanks Alice!

I have not posted on this thread but have read a few posts.

Some who post on this fourm have no idea what Christian virtue is. I am sorry that you had to experience such irresponsible behavior.

You know that God is watching of course. So we must not return the favor. We must forgive them and pray for them and each other.

God keep you and strengthen you...

PS
Tamara is a blessing to this OC.net Forum ..indeed; Thanks!
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Rosehip on June 06, 2008, 02:39:13 PM
Quote

PS
Tamara is a blessing to this OC.net Forum ..indeed; Thanks!

I second that! Thanks, Tamara, for blessing us with your wisdom, kindness,godliness, and diplomacy. You have also blessed my life personally! Many thanks! :-*
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Αριστοκλής on June 06, 2008, 04:19:40 PM
Well said!

Homosexuality is a struggle for all of us, whether those who struggle with same-sex attraction itself or we who struggle not to condemn those who do. ...<snipped>
But this does not apply to the question. It is not those who "struggle" with same-sex attraction - those we do not condemn. But those who demand we accept their acceptance (giving into the sin) as our own. That's the rub.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Riddikulus on June 06, 2008, 07:13:08 PM
Honestly I don't think that homosexuality comes up over and over again just because everyone hates gays. As I said before, the reason that homosexuality comes up is that our society has made it an issue. For over about thrity to forty years, active homosexuals have been pushing an agenda to bring homosexuality out into the open and present the homosexual life style as a normal and viable alternative to the heterosexuality. Before this sixties, this was nearly unheard of. Homosexuality was quite rightly viewed as a disorder, sinful, and unhealhty. The big change in the way our society views the matter and has continually brought it to the forfront of discussion over the past few decades has made homosexuality a big political topic of conversation that it simply was not in the past. This is not the fault of Christians, Orthodox, Catholic, or otherwise, but rather the society at large that has made the issue so "important". Since Christian ethics rejects homosexuality, Christians now are forced to deal with an issue that secular culture is basically shoving in everyone's face whether they like it or not. If anyone really wants to point a finger for making the homosexual agenda an issue they should not be pointing a finger at Christians who are responding to a matter becuase of their faith. Rather, point the finger at those who continue to force the issue.

And yet in the early days of the Church, Christians were surrounding by homosexuality and much, much worse - and it doesn't seem from scripture that Christ was advocating that his followers institute law reform for pagans so that they conformed to Christian standards.

Perhaps the reason it has become such an issue for the 20-21st Century is that the Church, finding herself in a position to influence the state, affected laws that were enforced on the non-believer. It still doesn't seem to me that that was ever Christ's intention for the Church. Our changes and struggles with sin are to be our own, not those that are foisted upon us by the moral laws of a faith we don't believe. If such laws are in place, they merely push the non-believer away from Christianity. Our task, as the Church, is to bring non-believers to Christ (by exhibiting our love for each other and our love for the non-believer) so that in accepting Christ as their Saviour, they can recognise sin in themselves and desire change in themselves. Seems to me that historically the Church has failed miserably in the regard of love of each other, let alone love for non-believers.

It also seems to me that Christians need to accept a large portion of the blame for homosexuals "forcing of the issue" in this regard. It amounts to much more than differences of belief, of us against "the world"; it amounts to the Christian insistance of prying into what goes on in other people's bedrooms. This is something that people who live in countries where freedom is the catch-phrase will not and should not accept.

Until Christians learn to accept that others have the freewill - granted by God - to live as they choose, making moral decisions that we don't agree with, we will have the topic of homosexuality resurfacing as a hostile topic again and again. 
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: ytterbiumanalyst on June 06, 2008, 07:20:36 PM
But this does not apply to the question. It is not those who "struggle" with same-sex attraction - those we do not condemn. But those who demand we accept their acceptance (giving into the sin) as our own. That's the rub.
I see where you're coming from. Purposefully doing things to offend the sensibilities of a group is not a good way to gain the acceptance of that group. Personally, I think the whole "gay pride parade" is counterproductive. I don't care what anyone does in their own bedroom, but when it's in public, in plain sight of eveyone, I really don't want to see it regardless of the gender of the participants.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Riddikulus on June 06, 2008, 07:46:48 PM
I see where you're coming from. Purposefully doing things to offend the sensibilities of a group is not a good way to gain the acceptance of that group. Personally, I think the whole "gay pride parade" is counterproductive. I don't care what anyone does in their own bedroom, but when it's in public, in plain sight of eveyone, I really don't want to see it regardless of the gender of the participants.

Taking it public, though, is part of "forcing the issue" and understandable. Those who feel persecuted will eventually take their cause public; most often with outrageous consequences. But would things have gone this far if homosexuals had not felt pushed into rebellion against "polite" society? Like any group of people who feel that they have been over-disciplined - and often unfairly - the more wilful (and gregarious) homosexual has decided to make a public statement. End result, a "gay pride parade" that is not only counterproductive in terms of receiving understanding and acceptance for homosexuals, but also "one in the eye for the establishment". 
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: livefreeordie on June 06, 2008, 10:11:51 PM
Until Christians learn to accept that others have the freewill - granted by God - to liveas they choose, making moral decisions that we don't agree with, we will have the topic of homosexuality resurfacing as a hostile topic again and again. 

I'm intrigued, how many Christians do you personally know that you would say to them, "you obviously have not learned to accept others have freewill".  I think most Christians would absolutely accept that God has given us all the free will to live as we choose. But does "accepting" mean we should all "live as we choose" or allow other's to "live as they choose".  Of course not, we all draw a line somewhere.  We just disagree with where the line should be drawn. In fact, most of us, not just Christians, all have low opinions of some of the many ways that people choose to exercise free will.  Obviously, some free will is determined to be illegal by society, i.e. someone's will to kill someone else.  And yes, I understand your point is, "don't tell other people how to live ye who cast the first stone."  But the way you put it is sure painting a pretty broad, and probably unfair brush of "Christians".  Personally, I've never met a Christian who didn't believe everyone had free will.  Doesn't mean you to have to accept or approve of it, and as we all know and I just said, society for completely non-religious reasons abridges people's rights to exercise their free will every day.

Sorry to dwell on the semantics, just don't understand why you had to make such a broad, damning statement against what you imply must be a majority of or at least a great deal of Christians. It seemed downright "hostile"!  ;)
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Riddikulus on June 07, 2008, 12:28:42 AM
I'm intrigued, how many Christians do you personally know that you would say to them in person, "you obviously have not learned to accept others have freewill".

Why would I use such wording? There are many ways to discuss matters without using your formula. Forgive me if you took any of my comments personally. I wasn't addressing any member of this forum, but making a general observation as to why so many threads regarding homosexuality are started and are undeniably hostile - here on OC.net and on many other Christian forums and chat venues. Historically, Christian interaction with other sinners has been pretty appalling. If you don't agree, perhaps that could be a topic for another thread?

Quote
I think most Christians would absolutely accept that God has given us all the free will to live as we choose. But does "accepting" mean we should all "live as we choose" or allow other's to "live as they choose".  Of course not, we all draw a line somewhere.  We just disagree with where the line should be drawn. In fact, most of us, not just Christians, all have low opinions of some of the many ways that people choose to exercise free will.  Obviously, some free will is determined to be illegal by society, i.e. someone's will to kill someone else. 

I thought that this thread was about homosexuality on Orthodox forums. That is discussion regarding sexual attraction to another of one's own gender, and between two consenting adults. I'm not sure how murder got into the picture.

Quote
And yes, I understand your point is, "don't tell other people how to live ye who cast the first stone."  But the way you put it is sure painting a pretty broad, and probably unfair brush of "Christians".  Personally, I've never met a Christian who didn't believe everyone had free will. 

You have never net a Calvinist? And there are plenty of Christians who give lip-service to the concept of freewill, but then try to manipulate those around them to prevent them from exercising freewill as they see fit.

Quote
Sorry to dwell on the semantics, just don't understand why you had to make such a broad, damning statement against what you imply must be a majority of or at least a great deal of Christians. It seemed downright "hostile"!  ;)

I said; Until Christians learn to accept that others have the freewill - granted by God - to live as they choose, making moral decisions that we don't agree with, we will have the topic of homosexuality resurfacing as a hostile topic again and again.  

Where do I imply any numbers? Did you not notice the collective pronoun "we". As a community of believers, we are in this together - that means all of us. And how is this a damning statement? Obviously, as a Christian, I include myself in the above statement for I do believe that this tendancy to forget that others have the right to live according to their own choices has far wider implications than the subject of homosexuality only. I know that it's a 24/7 determination on my own part to not walk this earth wondering why people don't think and act the way I think is most appropriate. :P And who is the statement damning? Are we not permitted to recognise this tendancy in the human race without it being regarded as damning? What exactly do you mean by damning? And are you suggesting that there aren't a great number of Christians who deal with this subject poorly and with hostility?

Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: livefreeordie on June 07, 2008, 01:25:40 AM
Murder got in the picture because of the obvious point that "free will" doesn't mean license to do whatever you want. I wasn't equating murder to homosexuality or anything else. Sorry if that seemed an inappropriate choice of words.

I've met plenty of Calvinists.  Compared to the majority of Christians, the actual number who would call themselves Calvinists and actually believe we have no free will are few.  Which is why I said "most" Christians.

I know many Christians who disagree with Homosexuality.  But I can't remember the last time I personally saw one act poorly or with hostility in regards the issue.  I heard more hostility toward homosexuals playing High School sports from guys who'd never step foot in a Church than I ever have in a Church. Now I've seen Christians on TV do so, and I've seen Christians on web boards do so but my personal experience would lead me to believe that most Christians actually deal with this issue appropriately and without hostility. But I won't disagree that there are many that do not.

Why do I think this topic keeps coming up on boards, 1) People get nervous and reactionary by something they perceive as attacking their faith or way of life and it exposes their own weaknesses, 2) people don't like to be told what to do and get nervous that people telling other people what they can or can't do will eventually effect them and 3) internet boards attract people looking for debate and homosexuality is a hot topic. So it make sense that among a group of people looking to debate/test/defend their "beliefs" it would get discussed often.  So they all tend to create boogymen and let flaming begin.

As for me, some of the finest people I've ever met were homosexuals.  And some of the finest people I've ever met were hardcore Southern Baptist bible thumpers.  And some of the finest people I've ever met were hard core atheists. I've rarely if ever seen them act or speak hostile toward one another on these issues. Disagree yes, difference of opinion yes, hostile no.  People lurking on web forums and media attention grabbers though, a different story! ;)
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Riddikulus on June 07, 2008, 01:34:34 AM
Murder got in the picture because of the obvious point that "free will" doesn't mean license to do whatever you want. I wasn't equating murder to homosexuality or anything else. Sorry if that seemed an inappropriate choice of words.

You are forgiven.  :P

Quote
I've met plenty of Calvinists.  Compared to the majority of Christians, the actual number who would call themselves Calvinists and actually believe we have no free will are few.  Which is why I said "most" Christians.

Sorry to nitpick, but you said; Personally, I've never met a Christian who didn't believe everyone had free will.

Quote
I know many Christians who disagree with Homosexuality.  But I can't remember the last time I personally saw one act poorly or with hostility in regards the issue.  I heard more hostility toward homosexuals playing High School sports from guys who'd never step foot in a Church than I ever have in a Church. Now I've seen Christians on TV do so, and I've seen Christians on web boards do so but my personal experience would lead me to believe that most Christians actually deal with this issue appropriately and without hostility. But I won't disagree that there are many that do not.

Aren't we talking about homosexuality on Orthodox forums  ???

Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: livefreeordie on June 07, 2008, 01:46:27 AM
Sorry to nitpick, but you said; Personally, I've never met a Christian who didn't believe everyone had free will.

Aren't we talking about homosexuality on Orthodox forums  ???

To be perfectly honest, the "Calvinists" I've known probably aren't true Calvinists since if pushed they would say they believe in predestination but would also say our actions are somehow "free".  Which of course probably means they aren't really Calvinists. I wouldn't argue that with them though! ;) But this probably means my original statement should have been, "As far as I know, I've never met a Christian who didn't believe everyone had free will, but their might be a few confused ones I'm not sure about!"

And yes we have been talking about "homosexuality on Orthodox forums", although it seemed to me you were also commenting on the topic of homosexuality and how the Christian community deals with the topic in general, regardless, getting back on "topic" is why my next paragraph after the one quoted read,

"Why do I think this topic keeps coming up on boards, 1) People get nervous and reactionary by something they perceive as attacking their faith or way of life and it exposes their own weaknesses, 2) people don't like to be told what to do and get nervous that people telling other people what they can or can't do will eventually effect them and 3) internet boards attract people looking for debate and homosexuality is a hot topic. So it make sense that among a group of people looking to debate/test/defend their "beliefs" it would get discussed often.  So they all tend to create boogymen and let flaming begin."

You must have just missed it! ;)


Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: livefreeordie on June 07, 2008, 02:07:14 AM
Aren't we talking about homosexuality on Orthodox forums  ???

Since you seem concerned about us staying on topic, was the following then only intended to address specifically "homosexuality on Orthodox forums".

As a community of believers, we are in this together - that means all of us. And how is this a damning statement? Obviously, as a Christian, I include myself in the above statement for I do believe that this tendancy to forget that others have the right to live according to their own choices has far wider implications than the subject of homosexuality only. I know that it's a 24/7 determination on my own part to not walk this earth wondering why people don't think and act the way I think is most appropriate. :P And who is the statement damning? Are we not permitted to recognise this tendancy in the human race without it being regarded as damning? What exactly do you mean by damning? And are you suggesting that there aren't a great number of Christians who deal with this subject poorly and with hostility?

It must be my feeble mind that led me to believe you were talking in a more general sense of how christians relate to the topic of homosexuality.   Forgive my misunderstanding as I'm sure you wouldn't hold me to a higher standard of topic etiquette than yourself! :o

Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Riddikulus on June 07, 2008, 02:08:20 AM
To be perfectly honest, the "Calvinists" I've known probably aren't true Calvinists since if pushed they would say they believe in predestination but would also say our actions are somehow "free".  Which of course probably means they aren't really Calvinists. I wouldn't argue that with them though! ;) But this probably means my original statement should have been, "As far as I know, I've never met a Christian who didn't believe everyone had free will, but their might be a few confused ones I'm not sure about!"

And yes we have been talking about "homosexuality on Orthodox forums", although it seemed to me you were also commenting on the topic of homosexuality and how the Christian community deals with the topic in general, regardless, getting back on "topic" is why my next paragraph after the one quoted read,

"Why do I think this topic keeps coming up on boards, 1) People get nervous and reactionary by something they perceive as attacking their faith or way of life and it exposes their own weaknesses, 2) people don't like to be told what to do and get nervous that people telling other people what they can or can't do will eventually effect them and 3) internet boards attract people looking for debate and homosexuality is a hot topic. So it make sense that among a group of people looking to debate/test/defend their "beliefs" it would get discussed often.  So they all tend to create boogymen and let flaming begin."

You must have just missed it! ;)

I didn't miss a thing.  ;)
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Riddikulus on June 07, 2008, 02:09:46 AM
Since you seem concerned about us staying on topic, was the following then only intended to address specifically "homosexuality on Orthodox forums".

It must be my feeble mind that led me to believe you were talking in a more general sense of how christians relate to the topic of homosexuality.   Forgive my misunderstanding as I'm sure you wouldn't hold me to a higher standard of topic etiquette than yourself! :o

Yes, that was it; your feeble mind.  ;)
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: livefreeordie on June 07, 2008, 02:14:49 AM
Yes, that was it; your feeble mind.  ;)

You've discovered my intellectual liabilities. Go easy on me. ::)
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Papist on June 07, 2008, 12:50:43 PM
And yet in the early days of the Church, Christians were surrounding by homosexuality and much, much worse - and it doesn't seem from scripture that Christ was advocating that his followers institute law reform for pagans so that they conformed to Christian standards.

Perhaps the reason it has become such an issue for the 20-21st Century is that the Church, finding herself in a position to influence the state, affected laws that were enforced on the non-believer. It still doesn't seem to me that that was ever Christ's intention for the Church. Our changes and struggles with sin are to be our own, not those that are foisted upon us by the moral laws of a faith we don't believe. If such laws are in place, they merely push the non-believer away from Christianity. Our task, as the Church, is to bring non-believers to Christ (by exhibiting our love for each other and our love for the non-believer) so that in accepting Christ as their Saviour, they can recognise sin in themselves and desire change in themselves. Seems to me that historically the Church has failed miserably in the regard of love of each other, let alone love for non-believers.

It also seems to me that Christians need to accept a large portion of the blame for homosexuals "forcing of the issue" in this regard. It amounts to much more than differences of belief, of us against "the world"; it amounts to the Christian insistance of prying into what goes on in other people's bedrooms. This is something that people who live in countries where freedom is the catch-phrase will not and should not accept.

Until Christians learn to accept that others have the freewill - granted by God - to live as they choose, making moral decisions that we don't agree with, we will have the topic of homosexuality resurfacing as a hostile topic again and again. 
Nope. The early Church wasn't dealing with a cultural shift towards acceptance of homosexuality. It was old news in their society so there was no reason to  expect a great deal  of discussion on the matter. Today, we ARE dealing with a cultural shift that is being rammed down our throats under the disguise of "civil rights".
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: ialmisry on December 11, 2008, 08:04:11 PM
How about "because society/the media are presenting it as an issue"?


There you go! I agree. If bestiality were the new 'cause' I guess that would be a hot topic also.

(Opening new can of worms...)

LOL....you just mentioned bestiality.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: PeterTheAleut on December 12, 2008, 01:06:22 PM
How about "because society/the media are presenting it as an issue"?


There you go! I agree. If bestiality were the new 'cause' I guess that would be a hot topic also.

(Opening new can of worms...)

LOL....you just mentioned bestiality.
WOW!!!  You resuscitate a thread that had been dead for six months only to quote a post that goes back a year earlier. ::)  You must really be bored! :P
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: ialmisry on December 12, 2008, 01:11:32 PM
How about "because society/the media are presenting it as an issue"?


There you go! I agree. If bestiality were the new 'cause' I guess that would be a hot topic also.

(Opening new can of worms...)

LOL....you just mentioned bestiality.
WOW!!!  You resuscitate a thread that had been dead for six months only to quote a post that goes back a year earlier. ::)  You must really be bored! :P
No.  Just meandered off of OzGeorge's link to this thread posted yesterday.  Procrastinating more than bored.  Got too much going on: I'd LOVE to be bored.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: SolEX01 on December 12, 2008, 05:58:20 PM
With my recent vote (29 out of 56), more than half the voters feel that:

Homosexuality comes up frequenbtly on Orthodox forums because some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet.

Therefore, I propose that this thread be locked because the majority has spoken.   ;D  ;)
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: PeterTheAleut on December 12, 2008, 07:16:47 PM
With my recent vote (29 out of 56), more than half the voters feel that:

Homosexuality comes up frequenbtly on Orthodox forums because some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet.

Therefore, I propose that this thread be locked because the majority has spoken.   ;D  ;)
Do note also that, before today, this thread hadn't received a post in six months.

Besides, 31.6% of the vote is far short of a true majority.  A plurality of the voters in this poll voted that some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet, but a supermajority voted otherwise.  So THERE!  :P Thbbbbpft!
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: SolEX01 on December 12, 2008, 07:47:37 PM
With 30 votes out of 57 total cast - the plurality and the supermajority continue to agree and increase.   ;D
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: PeterTheAleut on December 12, 2008, 08:07:02 PM
With 30 votes out of 57 total cast - the plurality and the supermajority continue to agree and increase.   ;D
Hate to break it to you, bub, but 52.6% does not make a supermajority; that percentage needs to increase by 14.1 percentage points. ;)  And don't you dare vote again to try to raise that percentage! :police:
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: SolEX01 on December 12, 2008, 08:32:51 PM
Hate to break it to you, bub, but 52.6% does not make a supermajority; that percentage needs to increase by 14.1 percentage points. ;)  And don't you dare vote again to try to raise that percentage! :police:

Supermajorities are usually 60%; Hence, 7.4 percentage points are needed and I don't intend to vote more than once.   :angel:

However, we are no longer talking about the OP; We're throwing numbers at each other.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: SolEX01 on December 13, 2008, 12:32:07 AM
31 out of 58 votes = 53.44%

Need 10 more votes for supermajority.   ;D
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Asteriktos on December 13, 2008, 12:41:16 AM
I'm already on Zoloft and Abilify, so do I have to get on Prozac as well, or are my present meds acceptable?  ;D
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: SolEX01 on December 13, 2008, 12:52:48 AM
^ Your meds are more than acceptable.   :D
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Tallitot on December 13, 2008, 05:13:49 AM
OOpps...i just noticed the Prozac thing is on there twice!
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: ytterbiumanalyst on December 13, 2008, 08:08:02 AM
I'm already on Zoloft and Abilify, so do I have to get on Prozac as well, or are my present meds acceptable?  ;D
Abilify has to be one of the worst drug names ever.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: ialmisry on December 13, 2008, 09:15:56 AM
OOpps...i just noticed the Prozac thing is on there twice!

Yes, the poll is rigged.  A common practice of some on a certain side of an issue.
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: GiC on December 13, 2008, 11:50:57 AM
OOpps...i just noticed the Prozac thing is on there twice!

Therefore, I move that that option be disqualified and we declare 'Orthodox forums attract a lot of self torturing closet cases and men with doubts about thier own masculinity' the winner as claiming a clear majority of the remaining votes. ;)
Title: Re: Homosexuality on Orthodox forums
Post by: Fr. George on December 13, 2008, 12:09:56 PM
Therefore, I move that that option be disqualified and we declare 'Orthodox forums attract a lot of self torturing closet cases and men with doubts about thier own masculinity' the winner as claiming a clear majority of the remaining votes. ;)

You have no standing to make such a motion; appeal denied. ;)
Title: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 11, 2009, 12:43:52 PM
THE SAME WHO HOSTED FREEMASON-ORTHODOX APPROACH FORUM

Read below the moral and dogmatic corruption of the New Age Orthodox Church of Finland who participates as organizer in Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender "Christian" Forum.

http://www.yhteys.org/ef2009b.html


EUROPEAN FORUM OF LESBIAN & GAY CHRISTIAN GROUPS 2009

”Courage to follow the Law of Love” (Maybe they don't know the Biblical word 'lust')

MAY 20-24, 2009 IN FINLAND
PROGRAMME

Wednesday May 20
• 14.00- Registration and information
• 16.00-17.00 Dinner (included in participation fee)
• 17.00-21.00 Pre-Conference for Women, Pre-Conference for Men
• 21.00- Orthodox vesper, supper, saunas

Thursday May 21
• 08.00-08.30 Morning meditation
• 08.30-09.30 Breakfast
• 09.30-13.00 Pre-Conferences continue (Coffee break 11.00)
• 13.00-14.00 Lunch
• 14.00- Opening Ceremony

• Song of the Forum: Petri Laaksonen
• Director of the Aducation Center of the Church: Hannu Harri
• Welcoming words of Finnish organizers: Liisa Tuovinen
• Representant of the Lutheran Church: Bishop Mikko Heikka
• Organizers of the European Forum 2009: Enric Vilΰ

• Orthodox bishop Ambrosius

• Shaking hands with each other, Map of Europe
• 15.00-15.45 Coffee and Meeting with the church representatives and European Forum: Liisa Tuovinen.
• 15.45-16.30 “Courage to follow the law of love”: Lecture/ Speak.
• 17.00-18.30 Workshops (Further information of all workshops)
• 1) Future strategy for European Forum: European Forum board.
• 2) LGBT situation in the first Christian country in the world: Karen Badalyn.
• 3) “Transition in a church context: theology, community and roles of sex and gender in Christian life”: Eeva Jarvinen.
• 4) Sexual orientation, identification and means of power use and violence in church communities: Liisa Tuovinen.
• 5) “My story" - Story of my life: Inari Hytonen, MD (Max 10 participants and same persons present in every workshop meeting).

• 6) Together we give a voice to our praise of Creation. Practicing the akatist to the Praise to God for all creation, a service which is easy to learn. All who want to sing welcome. Orthodox cantor and music teacher Tuomas Sidoroff.
• 7) Lutheran Concerned / North America (LC/NA) programs and resources: Matrin Scheel & Philip Moeller.

• 18.30-19.30 Dinner
• 20.00–21.00 Evening programme “Dancing Conference” in the Hall

• 21.00- Orthodox vesper, supper, saunas

Friday May 22
• 07.30-08.00 Morning meditation
• 08.00-09.00 Breakfast
• 09.00- to Helsinki
• 10.00-13.00 Open seminar in the University of Helsinki

• PhD, Kerstin Soderblom, Goethe University Frankfurt: The European Churches and their sexual minority
• ThD, Bishop Wille Riekkinen: How to define theological stand on homosexuality


General secterary, Father Heikki Huttunen, Ecumenical Counsel of Finland, Orthodox church of Finland: Human sexuality in the Orthodox theology

• ThD, Assistant professor Vesa Hirvonen: Does homosexuality challenge the doctrine of the church?
• 13.00 Travel back to Jarvenpaa
• 14.00-15.00 Lunch
• 15.30-17.00 Workshops

• 1) Catholic church book project: Andrea E. Kruger.
• 2) HIV and sexually transmitted infections - safer sex and HIV-prevention: Lennie Lindberg.
• 3) LGBT situation in the first Christian country in the world: Karen Badalyn.
• 4) “Transition in a church context: theology, community and roles of sex and gender in Christian life”: Eeva Jarvinen.
• 5) Sexual orientation, identification and means of power use and violence in church communities: Liisa Tuovinen.
• 6) “My story" - Story of my life: Inari Hytonen, MD (Max 10 participants and same persons present in every workshop meeting)
• 7) Our response to persecution - growing towards spiritual strength. Johan Slδtis.
• 8) “Rowing spirit”. A journey to Lake Tuusula with texts from the Bible: Jaakko Hyttinen & Tuula Putkonen.
• 9) Visit to Ainola – home of composer Jean Sibelius: volunteers.
• 10) Planning group for the Closing service: Monika Pensar-Granroth.
• 11) Lutheran Concerned / North America (LC/NA) programs and resources: Matrin Scheel & Philip Moeller.
• 17.00-18.30 Floor ball in the Sports hall
• 18.30-19.30 Dinner
• 20.00–22.00 Evening programme

• 22.00-23.00 Orthodox vesper, supper, saunas


Saturday May 23
• 08.00-08.30 Morning meditation
• 08.30-09.00 Breakfast
• 09.00-13.00 Annual meeting of European Forum
• 09.00-13.00 Workshops

• 1) “Transition in a church context: theology, community and roles of sex and gender in Christian life”: Eeva Jarvinen.
• 2) Sexual orientation, identification and means of power use and violence in church communities: Liisa Tuovinen.

• 3) Can male priest love and live with a man? Discussion with an introduction by an orthodox priest working in southern Finland. (09.00-10.45).

• 4) From invisibility to visibility. Spiritual and communal ways to establish a rainbow identity in an orthodox context. Introduction to the theme by orthodox rainbow fellowshop members. (11.30-12.45).

• 5) “Rowing spirit”. A journey to Lake Tuusula with texts from the Bible: Jaakko Hyttinen & Tuula Putkonen.
• 6) Visit to Ainola – home of composer Jean Sibelius: volunteers.
• 7) Planning for Sunday service: Monika Pensar-Granroth.

______________________



A link about a Finnish Lutheran priest who has gone under sex-change and remained a parish... priestess. The Orthodox priests and General Seretary of the Finnish Ecumenical counsel and the priests of the parish of Helsinki support the ordination of transexuals and are in communion with the gay homosexual cult.

http://pastorbastard.blogspot.com/2008/11/vicar-changes-sex-and-jobs.html

http://www.kotimaa.fi/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6878&Itemid=38

Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 11, 2009, 12:50:16 PM
Here's another link for those interested

http://theoprovlitos.blogspot.com/2009/05/romanian-elders-on-ecumenism.html
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: mike on May 11, 2009, 12:52:47 PM
• Organizers of the European Forum 2009: Enric Vilΰ

• Orthodox bishop Ambrosius

1. In the original text (http://www.yhteys.org/ef2009b.html) there is not a single word about Met. Ambrosius. Someone had forged it. The owner of the blog I suppose. Wasn't you the one who "had modified" the announcement? You've got the same nicks.
2. You cannot forbid anyone from participating in Vespers or in Akathyst. They won't take Holy Sacraments.
3. You cannot forbid anyone from attending a discussion. I'd bet that the answer of an Orthodox Priest on that topic is No, he cannot!
4. What in common with EO Church has a Lutheran sex-changed Priest?
Please, do not delete links with sources anymore. You deleted one which hadn't had Met. Ambrosios name listed and put the link to the blog which had it. Luckily I know how to use web history feature in my MF2.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: CCTE on May 11, 2009, 01:02:17 PM
Can't be true. Give us some sources, independent publications, credible sources.
IT is bad. It is so BAD. This are make me say the word with A. !
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: ozgeorge on May 11, 2009, 01:21:39 PM
Can't be true.

It isn't.
Please see this thread: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21152.0.html
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: mike on May 11, 2009, 01:26:49 PM
A link about a Finnish Lutheran priest who has gone under sex-change and remained a parish... priestess. The Orthodox priests and General Seretary of the Finnish Ecumenical counsel and the priests of the parish of Helsinki support the ordination of transexuals and are in communion with the gay homosexual cult.

Thank you! Tomorrow I'm taking an oral English exam and I started getting nervous. After reading this I couldn't stop laughing for 5 minutes and all the stress has gone :)
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 11, 2009, 01:31:23 PM
AISI, NO PROOF WHATSOEVER has been provided--sorry, Theoprovlitos, citing your own blog doesn't count as proof--that this conference has the blessing of a canonical hierarch of the Finnish Orthodox Church.  For all I know, there may be a vagante sect in Finland helping sponsor this event.  Though this hypothetical group may call themselves Orthodox, they're no more Orthodox than the Dalai Lama.  So, can you give us evidence to prove that a bishop of the canonical Finnish Orthodox Church has helped organize this LBGT event?
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 11, 2009, 01:35:30 PM
My time expired and I was logged out and lost everything I wrote. So I am trying again

Unfortunatelly this neighnareis aboslutely TRUE.

The official programm of the conference is on line by the group Yhteys and I have already published the link.

Answering your questions now

1. In the original text the name of the Bishop was removed today in PANIC after I informed about the conference the Constantinople, Moscow, Bulgarian and other Patriarchates and Churches. However other Orthodox participants in the program play an important role in the Finnish Church. But you can still find the name of the same bishop in the Freemason page on the other post.


2. You cannot forbid anyone from participating in Vespers or in Akathyst but you also do not ORGANIZE in a non-orthodox church Vespers and Akathyst especially for GAYS unless the church introduces services fro different kinds of groups according to sex, social background, etc. Whoever is interested can visit the local Orthodox CHurch. There is no point organizein an Orthodox  service for the NON Orthodox especially focused on their sexual disorientation.


3. Maybe you didn't undersatnd wuite well the the person who introduces Gay Orthdox Pirests to live freely together with their lovers IS an Orthodox priest and the program has been approved by the bishop and the Archbishop of course.

4. The organizer of the conference is an Orthodox Priest who also happens to be the General Secretary of the Ecumenist Counsel of Finland. The gorganization where he also belongs is Yhteys and the president is a woman pastoress who recently performed the first ecclsiastical lesbian wedding in the Lutheran Church and she also put pressure so that the transexual priest would remain in hs parish as a priestess.

The Orthodox Priests who belong in this group, FULLY agree on this, FULLY suport them, they FULLY cooperate with them and the pray together in several services except of the divine Liturgy (for the time being)

Lst but not least they reject the Epistles and the Old Testament becasue they say negative things about homosexuality and their heretical moto is "If Jesus said nothing about it, then it is ALLOWED"

What else do you need?

You should know that this story goes back since 13 years ago when in the Orthodox Magazine Aamun Koitto they started publishing articles promoting homosexuality even mentioning that Jesus Christ had a special relationshiop with St John the Theologian!

In the blog you can see the covers of at least to issues dedicated tohomosexuality.

You should also know that Mt AThos, and some Church leaders are aware of the problem since quite some time. But becasue the Patriarchate does not take any measures those obsessed people guide the Finnish Church from bad to worse...
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 11, 2009, 01:43:55 PM
My time expired and I was logged out and lost everything I wrote. So I am trying again

Unfortunatelly this neighnareis aboslutely TRUE.
Unfortunately, since you have not yet posted any links to sources outside of your own blog, it appears to be you and no one else saying this.

The official programm of the conference is on line by the group Yhteys and I have already published the link.
Where?  I don't see the link.

Answering your questions now

1. In the original text the name of the Bishop was removed today in PANIC after I informed about the conference the Constantinople, Moscow, Bulgarian and other Patriarchates and Churches. However other Orthodox participants in the program play an important role in the Finnish Church. But you can still find the name of the same bishop in the Freemason page on the other post.


2. You cannot forbid anyone from participating in Vespers or in Akathyst but you also do not ORGANIZE in a non-orthodox church Vespers and Akathyst especially for GAYS unless the church introduces services fro different kinds of groups according to sex, social background, etc. Whoever is interested can visit the local Orthodox CHurch. There is no point organizein an Orthodox  service for the NON Orthodox especially focused on their sexual disorientation.


3. Maybe you didn't undersatnd wuite well the the person who introduces Gay Orthdox Pirests to live freely together with their lovers IS an Orthodox priest and the program has been approved by the bishop and the Archbishop of course.

4. The organizer of the conference is an Orthodox Priest who also happens to be the General Secretary of the Ecumenist Counsel of Finland. The gorganization where he also belongs is Yhteys and the president is a woman pastoress who recently performed the first ecclsiastical lesbian wedding in the Lutheran Church and she also put pressure so that the transexual priest would remain in hs parish as a priestess.

The Orthodox Priests who belong in this group, FULLY agree on this, FULLY suport them, they FULLY cooperate with them and the pray together in several services except of the divine Liturgy (for the time being)

Lst but not least they reject the Epistles and the Old Testament becasue they say negative things about homosexuality and their heretical moto is "If Jesus said nothing about it, then it is ALLOWED"

What else do you need?

You should know that this story goes back since 13 years ago when in the Orthodox Magazine Aamun Koitto they started publishing articles promoting homosexuality even mentioning that Jesus Christ had a special relationshiop with St John the Theologian!

In the blog you can see the covers of at least to issues dedicated tohomosexuality.

You should also know that Mt AThos, and some Church leaders are aware of the problem since quite some time. But becasue the Patriarchate does not take any measures those obsessed people guide the Finnish Church from bad to worse...
Sorry.  You've answered not one of the questions I asked, since the only question I asked is why the only sources you've linked so far are sources you yourself have constructed.



Okay, I sit corrected. :-[  You have provided a couple of links to something other than your own blog.  However, one of the links is to someone else's blog and, if the story detailed therein is true, still has no bearing on the OP if you can't prove from outside sources that the sex-changing Lutheran priest actually had the support of the Finnish Orthodox Church.  The other link redirects me to a news source that I can't read, since it's all in a language I don't understand (Finnish?).
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: mike on May 11, 2009, 01:47:43 PM

1. In the original text the name of the Bishop was removed today in PANIC after I informed about the conference the Constantinople, Moscow, Bulgarian and other Patriarchates and Churches. However other Orthodox participants in the program play an important role in the Finnish Church. But you can still find the name of the same bishop in the Freemason page on the other post.

It's only your word. And what have freemasons in common with Gay Conference? And neither of the Churches has reacted? There aren't any open letters. The Metropolitan thelepatically realised you informed them and modified the page?

2. You cannot forbid anyone from participating in Vespers or in Akathyst but you also do not ORGANIZE in a non-orthodox church Vespers and Akathyst especially for GAYS unless the church introduces services fro different kinds of groups according to sex, social background, etc. Whoever is interested can visit the local Orthodox CHurch. There is no point organizein an Orthodox  service for the NON Orthodox especially focused on their sexual disorientation.
Where is it stated that they won't took place in a normal Church?


Quote
Maybe you didn't understand wuite well the the person who introduces Gay Orthdox Pirests to live freely together with their lovers IS an Orthodox priest and the program has been approved by the bishop and the Archbishop of course.

It will be an introduction to the discussion (which will contain an Orthodox statement on the topic I suppose), NOT the introduction of gay Orthodox Priests.

Quote
4. The organizer of the conference is an Orthodox Priest who also happens to be the General Secretary of the Ecumenist Counsel of Finland. The gorganization where he also belongs is Yhteys and the president is a woman pastoress who recently performed the first ecclsiastical lesbian wedding in the Lutheran Church and she also put pressure so that the transexual priest would remain in hs parish as a priestess.

Fr. Heikki didn't perform a lesbian wedding. Where is the source that he organises the event? BTW in Poland an Orthodox Hierarchs also presides national ecumenical organisation.

Quote
The Orthodox Priests who belong in this group, FULLY agree on this, FULLY suport them, they FULLY cooperate with them and the pray together in several services except of the divine Liturgy (for the time being)

Agree and support what? And how do you know that he fully does?

Quote
Lst but not least they reject the Epistles and the Old Testament becasue they say negative things about homosexuality and their heretical moto is "If Jesus said nothing about it, then it is ALLOWED"

Prove it.


You seem (or pretend) to have an outstanding knowledge of issues in Finnish Church as you are Greek. Where do you take it from?



Where?  I don't see the link.

Top of the OP. I am not sure whether it was there from the beginning or was added later or had been removed and placed again.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 11, 2009, 01:55:18 PM
Where?  I don't see the link.

Top of the OP. I am not sure whether it was there from the beginning or was added later.
Yes, I recall that I saw the link and even commented on the fact that it provides no evidence whatsoever that the "Orthodox" group helping sponsor this conference is indeed a canonically Orthodox church and not a vagante sect.

I'm afraid I'm starting to lose credibility with my contradiction of facts I myself acknowledged earlier.  Must be due to the fact that I'm almost 40. :-[
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 11, 2009, 01:57:52 PM
Listen guys

I do not like "professional controvercy" and I don't like people questioning my credibility for the sake of controversy.

I havev provided you with liks which if you made a research you would have EASILY found out that the bishop ios involved. I cannot waste my time with people who call me a fraud.

Anyhow my point was not to proof myself a cdredulous person but to make this public so that peorple are aware of this worldwide and that those who are percecuted in Finland becasue they protest will get some help.

I guess aritcles and links in Finnish or Greek won't do any help to you or would they?

Here is the list of Orthodox Priests who are active memebrs of Yhteys WITH the blessing of the local bishop becasue I suppose it is obvious that Orthodox priests cannot participate actively and in public in such organizations without the bishops permission

http://www.yhteys.org/ortodoksit_frame.html

Here is the link of the Finnish Ecumenist counsil where the secretary is an Orthodox priest, same as in Yhteys homosexual group

http://www.ekumenia.fi/yhteystiedot_kontakt/

And here is the Orthodox Gay Fellowship where the theological secretary of the Archbishop himslef, supports openly gay activists since 2007, whao wrote in their "orthodox" magazine the Christ was gay and that Church should blesses homosexaual weddings.

I am too tired to search for more. If you don't believe me that is YOUR problem. I do not live in Finland.

http://sateenkaariseura.wordpress.com/articles-from-other-sites/double-life/
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 11, 2009, 02:19:23 PM
Listen guys

I do not like "professional controvercy" and I don't like people questioning my credibility for the sake of controversy.
Actually, Theoprovlitos, this is not a matter of people questioning your credibility for the sake of controversy.  This is a matter of you posting vile accusations against a canonical hierarch of the Body of Christ, accusations that can be deemed libel if you cannot provide sufficient proof of their veracity.  You cannot rest on a credibility you haven't earned yet and seem hellbent on destroying with your alarmist, possibly slanderous claims.

I havev provided you with liks which if you made a research you would have EASILY found out that the bishop ios involved. I cannot waste my time with people who call me a fraud.
Then take the time to prove that you are NOT a fraud.  You are the one arguing a case against a bishop of the Finnish Orthodox Church.  According to the rules of courtroom debate--maybe one of our attorneys can correct me where I err--the burden of proof is on you to prove your case against the bishop and to do whatever research and translation is necessary to accomplish this end.  We, the jury, bear no responsibility to conduct any research outside of a mere review of the evidence you have provided.  So don't ask us to do what you refuse (i.e., are too lazy?) to waste your time doing.

Anyhow my point was not to proof myself a cdredulous person but to make this public so that peorple are aware of this worldwide and that those who are percecuted in Finland becasue they protest will get some help.

I guess aritcles and links in Finnish or Greek won't do any help to you or would they?

Here is the list of Orthodox Priests who are active memebrs of Yhteys WITH the blessing of the local bishop becasue I suppose it is obvious that Orthodox priests cannot participate actively and in public in such organizations without the bishops permission

http://www.yhteys.org/ortodoksit_frame.html

Here is the link of the Finnish Ecumenist counsil where the secretary is an Orthodox priest, same as in Yhteys homosexual group

http://www.ekumenia.fi/yhteystiedot_kontakt/

And here is the Orthodox Gay Fellowship where the theological secretary of the Archbishop himslef, supports openly gay activists since 2007, whao wrote in their "orthodox" magazine the Christ was gay and that Church should blesses homosexaual weddings.

I am too tired to search for more. If you don't believe me that is YOUR problem. I do not live in Finland.

http://sateenkaariseura.wordpress.com/articles-from-other-sites/double-life/
Still awaiting a proper Finnish translation of these web pages from those of our posters who do live in Finland...
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 11, 2009, 04:07:47 PM
Thank God

Because you guys remind my of those people when a woman goes to report a rape to the police and the policement start making hints that she was propably asking for it.

Anyway I still belive that writing here is a loss of time but I found more links from previous activities which are actually published by the gay mafia. But if one is TRULY orthodox by reading between the line she gets the message.

http://www.rainbowchristians.com/articles/entry/Homosexuality-issue-Complicating-Relationships-Between-the-Orthodox-in-Russia-and-Finland


HOORAY

Now some big mouth will shut

Go to Google
Search  ambrosius finland gay
Go to result no 4 and THERE IT IS

EUROPEAN FORUM OF LESBIAN & GAY CHRISTIAN GROUPS 2009Orthodox bishop Ambrosius; Shaking hands with each other, Map of Europe ... General secterary, Father Heikki Huttunen, Ecumenical Counsel of Finland, ...
www.yhteys.org/ef2009b.html - 8k - Cached - Similar pages

Because the name was removed TODAY google hasn't updated the link and so the ORTHODOX BISHOP's AMBROSIUS's name is FIRST IN LINE and the subject of his speach: Shaking hands with each other (and maybe more than hands).

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=ambrosius+finland+gay&btnG=Search&meta=

Now the fact that his name was removed makes him even responsible and guilty for what is going on.

Of course those who were critisizing me have nothing to say as well as about the fact that the General Secretary of Ecumenist Counsil is an Orthodox priest

Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: lubeltri on May 11, 2009, 04:33:39 PM

• 21.00-Orthodox vesper, supper, saunas

 :o
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 11, 2009, 04:34:24 PM
Thank God

Because you guys remind my of those people when a woman goes to report a rape to the police and the policement start making hints that she was propably asking for it.
Sorry.  Don't see the connection here.

Anyway I still belive that writing here is a loss of time but I found more links from previous activities which are actually published by the gay mafia. But if one is TRULY orthodox by reading between the line she gets the message.

http://www.rainbowchristians.com/articles/entry/Homosexuality-issue-Complicating-Relationships-Between-the-Orthodox-in-Russia-and-Finland
Thank you.  Evidence to suggest that maybe there is something to your claim that maybe the Finnish Orthodox Church is more supportive of gays than you like, whatever all that means. :-\  But also note that the same article states that many even in the Finnish Orthodox Church are uncomfortable with this "openness".  I'm also not convinced that this circumstantial evidence, if that's what it can be called, can be used as proof of your specific claim that the Orthodox bishop of Finland helped organize an ecumenist gay conference for later this month.

HOORAY

Now some big mouth will shut

Go to Google
Search  ambrosius finland gay
Go to result no 4 and THERE IT IS

EUROPEAN FORUM OF LESBIAN & GAY CHRISTIAN GROUPS 2009Orthodox bishop Ambrosius; Shaking hands with each other, Map of Europe ... General secterary, Father Heikki Huttunen, Ecumenical Counsel of Finland, ...
www.yhteys.org/ef2009b.html - 8k - Cached - Similar pages

Because the name was removed TODAY google hasn't updated the link and so the ORTHODOX BISHOP's AMBROSIUS's name is FIRST IN LINE and the subject of his speach: Shaking hands with each other (and maybe more than hands).

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=ambrosius+finland+gay&btnG=Search&meta=

Now the fact that his name was removed makes him even responsible and guilty for what is going on.
Maybe Bishop Ambrosius's name was removed from the list after you copied it to your blog, or maybe there's another explanation why His Grace's name still appears in the Google hit when it no longer appears on the linked web page.  I certainly can't say that I buy your explanation, since His Grace may have also had his name removed--if it was ever there to begin with--for much more noble reasons--maybe he repented under pressure from his flock and withdrew all support for the conference.  All I'm saying is that there are more viable explanations than just the one you offered here.

Of course those who were critisizing me have nothing to say as well as about the fact that the General Secretary of Ecumenist Counsil is an Orthodox priest
An issue unrelated to the OP of this thread, but truly an issue about which we SHOULD be concerned even based on what little proof you've offered here.  However, tying this back into your OP, I don't see this as necessarily a reflection against the whole body of the Orthodox Church of Finland.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 11, 2009, 05:31:42 PM
Peter, honestly, does someone PAY you to erite the things that you write? Google presents the results WITH the bishops name, and so have I added the link in my blog 4 days ago. And I also wrote a letter to the ecumenical Patriarchate Fr Elpidoforos Lambriniadis more specifically presenting all the facts. And then the following day the bishops name disapears from the list of lecturers (while the link remains the same) and I finally due to the accusations towards my person that all this is a fraud I managed to located google's results as the link was appearing till yesterday and you are now suggesting that I made a consipracy with google to frame the bishop? Are you serious?

And how about the other priests which still appear on the link which is public of course? Are you suggesting that those priests are secretely participating in the conference adn the bishop hasn't noticed?

Can't you recognize that the situation in Finland is like hell and we have in one of those links the Archbishop's Theological Secretary Jyrki Harkonen calling the state to take measures against the Church he belongs and he is getting paid from, if that Church does not approve homosexuality?

The "Orthodox" magazines aren't they enough? Are you gay or Freemason? Because I do not get your point and the reason why youy are doing this.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 11, 2009, 05:54:39 PM

1. In the original text the name of the Bishop was removed today in PANIC after I informed about the conference the Constantinople, Moscow, Bulgarian and other Patriarchates and Churches. However other Orthodox participants in the program play an important role in the Finnish Church. But you can still find the name of the same bishop in the Freemason page on the other post.

It's only your word.

And Google.com's word.

Google.com's cached version of the page features the name of Bishop Ambrosios as Theoprovlitos has said.

http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:p6DVxgG7dLkJ:www.yhteys.org/ef2009b.html+%22Sexual+orientation,+identification+and+means+of+power+use+and+violence%22&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=nz

If that won't work for you because it is Google.com New Zealand then do a Google search using the phrase "Sexual orientation, identification and means of power use and violence"

Click on Google's CACHED version of the page.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Fr. George on May 11, 2009, 05:57:25 PM
Well, the phrase "removed today in PANIC after I informed about the conference" is certainly a bit much, no?  You yourself admit that the name was removed merely one day after you mailed a letter to Constantinople (simply put: far too quickly for it to have reached them, for them to "PANIC," and then remove the name from the website) and the other churches.

Since it can be clearly demonstrated that his name was removed, how about clear justification?  Is he not going to participate?  Is he sick and unable to go?  Has he been reprimanded not to participate in this gathering?
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Fr. George on May 11, 2009, 06:01:07 PM
Are you gay or Freemason?

Because he disagrees or has issues with your presentation, you automatically assume he's gay or a Freemason?

Because I do not get your point and the reason why youy are doing this.

It's probably for the sake of preventing rumors from being spread needlessly.  There are plenty of stories that come here to OrthodoxChristianity.net - some of which are newsworthy and true, and others which are nothing more than libel and rumor.  We, who are hearers of the news, must be careful in receiving it, lest we be misled by false sources and those who are determined to tear the Church down (from within or without).

What you have claimed seems like it could indeed be true; but there is enough question in the sources and references to provide a "reasonable doubt."
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 11, 2009, 06:23:42 PM
Because I do not get your point and the reason why youy are doing this.

It's probably for the sake of preventing rumors from being spread needlessly.  There are plenty of stories that come here to OrthodoxChristianity.net - some of which are newsworthy and true, and others which are nothing more than libel and rumor.  We, who are hearers of the news, must be careful in receiving it, lest we be misled by false sources and those who are determined to tear the Church down (from within or without).

What you have claimed seems like it could indeed be true; but there is enough question in the sources and references to provide a "reasonable doubt."
Exactly what I'm trying to communicate. ;D
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 11, 2009, 06:44:52 PM
Well I can't know who is who. And I wrote a message here ( I didn't even know this forum before) because a friend of mine from California suggested that I should bring this to the surface because the situation in Finland is like this several years now, people complain to the bishop who never responds, others are being persecuted, they threaten the Orthodox Monsatery of New Valaam with boycott if they do not accept their ideas and nothing happens as long as this remains a private and a local issue.

People are translating the same texts as me and they send then over to Moscow asking them to start a local jurisdiction in Finland so that they can leave the Finnish Orthodox church. Last year it happend again and I send a leteer to the same person in the Patriarchate and the Synod of Finland isued an announcement that all tha tare exagerations of fanatics. The Synod's answer ws forwarded to me and I have it in my hands. What must I do so that I become reliable? Publish official documents in forums and in blogs?

I let it go for some months and then the Finnish Archbishop scandalized again last November when he gave an intervew to the Lutheran magazine Kotimaa claiming more or less that a married gay cannot only become clergy. Meaning that he serve in any other place in the Church or be gay but not married. Again I wrote about it to the blog and there was a special meeting there to see what the will do and the archbishop again started making up exvuses.

Now this was TOO MUCH. A gay conference with Lutheran gays who just accepted transexual pastors and a forum with Free masons that was too much. Again Finnish friends were sending me emails and info about what is going on here. And becasue they happen to work for the church and they have been thretened of losing their jobs I decided to help them out being in Greece, married to a Finnish wife and I know those people too well, since in the past we were friends with many of them.

When I mentioned letter to the Patriarchate I meant email letter with attachments from bishops activities. The perosn in the Patriarchate sow with his own eyes what was there. And becasue he was already furious with the local bishop since last year (he said angrily on the phone that his carrier is over) obviouly he immediately contacted the bishop and in a while the very same night the bishops name was removed.

Here is the message they sent me from Finland through facebook

May 11 at 12:13am
Reply:
The local metropolitan's name seems to have disappeared from the "christian" gay meeting's program in Järvenpää. Something is going on....

Given that my email to the Patriarchate, to the Synod of the Chrurch of Greece external relations department FrS., Church of Cyprus, Bulgarian Patriarchate, Moscow Patrarcahte Fr.G.  and several bishops in America and Greece was sen the very same morning that gives me the strong impression that the Finnish bishop removed his name in panic.

The fact is that if the situation does not stop there is going to be a new schisms since many Finns will move to the Patriarchate of Moscow with the secret blessings even of Greeks. Becasue moral corruption in combination with fallacies is more than what one can stand.

The local Finnish syndo had her time to change root. Instead of that She is moving into a dark pit. They even reject the Epistles and the Old Testament as reflecting old fashioned cultural ideas of the Jews!
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 11, 2009, 06:56:10 PM
Guys but I had at least three people doubting every single word I mentioned. I mean I gave a link it was rejected for not being in English I gave a page it wasn't valid becasue iut wsn;t a link, I gave a link then it wasn't agian good becasue irt has been changed by the Finns. I gave you at least 6-7 links and non ofe them was considered  as reliable. As if the fact that priests of the Orthdox diocese are participating in a gay conference with common prayers and introduction of heresies and immorality such as that gay priests can live openly with thei lovers. As if it wasn't enough that Fr Heikki Huttunen is the bishops right hand and represents the Lutheran Church equaly with the Orthodox beign the secretary of the Ecumenical counsel of Finland. This practically means that in interamntional forums he also represents the Protestants being an Orthodox priest! And this is why his theology is DEEPLY protestant.

You give me the impression that you are trying to cover up and hide the whole thing under the carpet by making fool of me.

Whoever doesn't want to believe then he won't believe it no matter what. For someone else who is watching the signs of the times half of the evidences I already presented were more than enough. What else can I say. If we all don't stand up and protest NOW agiasnt such phenomena soon you will have to deal with such heresies in your local church.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: shep4569 on May 11, 2009, 07:06:22 PM
Quote
It's probably for the sake of preventing rumors from being spread needlessly.  There are plenty of stories that come here to OrthodoxChristianity.net - some of which are newsworthy and true, and others which are nothing more than libel and rumor.  We, who are hearers of the news, must be careful in receiving it, lest we be misled by false sources and those who are determined to tear the Church down (from within or without).

It is also peculiar that all of a sudden you are new to the forum and the first and only things about which you post are very sensitive topics centered around the OC in Finland. I agree that Orthodox involvement in conferences and matters like this are troubling, but your posts and your tone are meant to convey hatred towards our brethren. You didn't want to start a discussion or inform us of something newsworthy, you wanted to stir up hatred. That's all the two topics you've started are about.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 11, 2009, 07:14:58 PM
Quote
It's probably for the sake of preventing rumors from being spread needlessly.  There are plenty of stories that come here to OrthodoxChristianity.net - some of which are newsworthy and true, and others which are nothing more than libel and rumor.  We, who are hearers of the news, must be careful in receiving it, lest we be misled by false sources and those who are determined to tear the Church down (from within or without).

It is also peculiar that all of a sudden you are new to the forum and the first and only things about which you post are very sensitive topics centered around the OC in Finland. I agree that Orthodox involvement in conferences and matters like this are troubling, but your posts and your tone are meant to convey hatred towards our brethren. You didn't want to start a discussion or inform us of something newsworthy, you wanted to stir up hatred. That's all the two topics you've started are about.
If not hatred, then at least a panicked Chicken Little ("The sky is falling!") response.  If there's anything to be learned from the old children's tales, one thing I've learned is that a panicked tone most often shows one to be totally irrational and, therefore, unbelievable.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 11, 2009, 07:36:50 PM
Guys you only know or onle can know the peak of the iceberg. I belive that hatred towars the Finnish Orthodox Church should refer to evryone who is Finnish Orthodox. In this case we are talking about a rotten environemtn who has been for some years now altering our dogmas, forming a mafia and percecuting thos who keep protesting with no response.

Yes there is no more tolerance towards them and yes we are sick and tired having to deal with this and that, every now and then, and be unable to resist. And the more this remains a local issue the more these people misbehave. How would you feel id some gues were claiming that Jeus Christ was homosexualand you protest and their reply is that you are a fundamentalist? Here we do not have to do with human weaknesses or a fall. We have to deal with hypocricy, hatred from THEIR side, persecution and oppression. It is easy to critise when you are outside a certain situation, nicely and safely while your fellow brothers are suffering from heretical people who are step by step are taking over the Church.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Νεκτάριος on May 11, 2009, 07:37:05 PM

• 21.00-Orthodox vesper, supper, saunas

 :o

Better than the sacristry as happens elsewhere.   ::)

Saunas are a normal part of Finish culture.  They are also a regular part of Russian culture.  Of course each time I went to the sauna (баня in Russian) it was a massive orgy of gay sex, so maybe you have a point.  Of course, you wouldn't want to take into account not imposing American cultural norms on a situation before making a snap judgement.  
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 11, 2009, 07:43:40 PM
shep4569

Can you specify what do you call "Brothers". Because the gospel calls heretics as "heavy wolves" and not brothers. I am here to bring awareness for the existance of wolves disguised as sheep and tosupport the true brothers from them.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 11, 2009, 08:13:27 PM
Guys you only know or onle can know the peak of the iceberg. I belive that hatred towars the Finnish Orthodox Church should refer to evryone who is Finnish Orthodox. In this case we are talking about a rotten environemtn who has been for some years now altering our dogmas, forming a mafia and percecuting thos who keep protesting with no response.

Yes there is no more tolerance towards them and yes we are sick and tired having to deal with this and that, every now and then, and be unable to resist. And the more this remains a local issue the more these people misbehave. How would you feel id some gues were claiming that Jeus Christ was homosexualand you protest and their reply is that you are a fundamentalist? Here we do not have to do with human weaknesses or a fall. We have to deal with hypocricy, hatred from THEIR side, persecution and oppression. It is easy to critise when you are outside a certain situation, nicely and safely while your fellow brothers are suffering from heretical people who are step by step are taking over the Church.
I can honestly understand that maybe the Finnish Orthodox Church is facing some difficult challenges right now as regards the efforts of her faithful to protect the riches of the Orthodox faith against heresy, though I don't know this for certain.  The way you just exploded onto the OC.net forum this morning with your "The sky is falling!" rhetoric, however, drives me to challenge you to ask yourself if you're presenting the situation in Finland in the best manner possible.  As I've already mentioned before, your panicky tone, your insistence that we trust you at your word even though we've never seen you before, your apparent jumping to unwarranted conclusions, and your insistence that we bear the burden of proof to prove you wrong all indicate to me that you're probably acting on a nefarious agenda that's driving you to not be completely forthright with us and/or that you've succumbed to the emotionalism of irrational panic.  Either way, you've not really given us much reason to believe you.  What can you do to change this so as to give your message more authority?  A much calmer, much less defensive tone, together with outside corroboration from official sources that we can read would be a good place to start.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: ozgeorge on May 11, 2009, 08:14:26 PM
Saunas are a normal part of Finish culture.  

Thank God for my Finnish friends in the mountains with their cedar sauna. Makes mountain winters bearable!
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: ozgeorge on May 11, 2009, 08:19:03 PM

• 21.00-Orthodox vesper, supper, saunas

 :o
::)
Please don't be ethnocentric guys.
Saunas are part of Finnish culture and have been for ages. There are two million saunas in Finland- a country of five million people. Does that mean that half the population of Finland is gay?
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Νεκτάριος on May 11, 2009, 08:43:44 PM

• 21.00-Orthodox vesper, supper, saunas

 :o
::)
Please don't be ethnocentric guys.
Saunas are part of Finnish culture and have been for ages. There are two million saunas in Finland- a country of five million people. Does that mean that half the population of Finland is gay?

According to a recent politics thread, almost the entire country is gay  ;D
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: lubeltri on May 12, 2009, 12:04:39 AM
 ::) It was a joke.

At first glance, though, I had a brief moment of surprise at the juxtaposition of Vespers with saunas at a conference alleged to be about homosexuality.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: shep4569 on May 12, 2009, 12:21:38 AM
shep4569

Can you specify what do you call "Brothers". Because the gospel calls heretics as "heavy wolves" and not brothers. I am here to bring awareness for the existance of wolves disguised as sheep and tosupport the true brothers from them.

Well, to be honest, this is the first I've heard of all the homosexuality in Finland. Being heterosexual myself, maybe I'm just out of the loop on international homosexual hotspots. Therefore, it is even more surprising (thus less believable) to me that the autonomous church of Finland, which is under the care of the EP, is somehow immersed up to its neck in homosexual tolerance and promotion. Surely if the OCA or ROC or EP or any other OC was advocating this type of behavior I'm sure one would hear about it....but I haven't, at least not from anybody other than you. Thus +Leo remains the pastoral leader of my Orthodox Christian brothers and sisters in Finland.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 12, 2009, 01:57:11 AM
I would like to address a good morning to the Inquisition.

Someone who is really objective would EASILY see that the two posts that I originally posted, one on homosexuality and the other on Freemasonry are NOTHING more than simple reproduction of NEWS the way they were presented in links. One text was even in English while the second text was nothing more that the translation from the Freemason magazine.

Therefore those of the inquisition who were stubbornly trying to prove me a fraud, now they try to present that I am spreading panic and hatred.

Now if panic and hatred come to you from the simple reproduction of a news page, then you should check YOUR hearts and intentions and not mine.

If you haven't done all this organized attack towards my person and simply read the TRANSLATION or the REPRODUCTION of their own links, then you would be able to see both that in the original links and posts that I am not spreading any panick  as you accuse me. Just AWARENESS.

Now when I have before me 3-4 members of the inquisition interrogating me simply because

a) Either they don't WANT to believe what I am writing and so they express THEIR panic on my person
b) Either they want to COVER UP the whole thing in order not to spoil the "Public image" of some heretics
c) Either because they AGREE both with what is going on in the Finnish church

then OF COURSE I got angry but towards YOU guys, because I entered the forum to present SIMPLE NEWS without comments and you have attacked me, and it is not clear which of the above your intentions are, if not ALL of them.

And when you present some NEWS based on LINKS about Freemasonry and open homosexuality within the Orthodox church and you get some people attack YOU, obviously you get angry, and raise your tone, simply because you realize that the people in a forum where you presented a problem, instead of confronting the heresy or write negative comments about the HERESY they write negative comments about YOU, as with the example of the woman who reports a rape and some guys verbaly attack HER instead of the rapers. In this case that woman is the Finnish Orthodox Church and her true faithful and her rapers are some of her bishops and their shady environment.

It is also like the film the "Invation of the Body Snatchers" where some cocoons from outer space are being transformed into human beings and replace the real humans -taking even their figures -when they fall asleep.

Same in this forum, NONE of you has expressed any opinion about homosexual ecclesiastical weddings, and Freemasonry within the church. Your ONLY goal was -and still is- to present me as crazy guy and to drive me crazy as well, having me trying to proof that I am not an elephant or a lunatic who sees "visions". OF COURSE I am angry. And OF COURSE I raise the tone towards people who claim to be Orthodox and they do not seem to understand that Freemasonry and homosexuality -especially as a church sacrement- have nothing to do with Orthodoxy.

I guess this is most probably because you agree whith what is happening in Finland (OCA is infamous among other jurisdictions in the USA for homosexual scandals) or probably you want to wait till you see the first homosexual wedding taking place in your OWN parish to believe. I am not sure however if you will feel sorry or if oyu will rejoice about it.

What I do feel however, is that if you want to believe yourselves christian you do owe me some appoligies for your overall attitude towards my person.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 12, 2009, 02:54:44 AM
OCA is infamous among other jurisdictions in the USA for homosexual scandals
Really?  I'm in the OCA, and I've never heard anything except a bit of gossip about possible sexual misdeeds and cover-ups by our previous two Metropolitans.  We certainly can't hide that we've had our scandals recently, but I'm certainly not aware that confirmed homosexual behavior by any of our clergy has ever been a big part of these.  To say that the OCA is infamous among American jurisdictions for homosexual scandals strikes me as quite a stretch indeed, and I really think you need to back up this claim, lest it be seen as slanderous, too.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 12, 2009, 03:07:50 AM
Temper temper,

now YOU are losing it and you know how it feels when they call you a fraud, simply because they want to cover up scandals which have to do with homosexuality. And a good reason I can think of is that they have their OWN reasons to do so.

One one good reason is that they might belong to thet close environment of those homosexual bishops that you just admited that they messed up the OCA church. And becasue we can't know who you are and what is your role in this forum, you have to proof now to me and to others that you do NOT belong to that environment of those rotten OCA bishops and therefore this is the reason why you defend with so much zeal those Finnish bishops who organize open homosexual meetings in their diocese.

If you can't proof it then I can assume whatever I want. Now YOU have to proof which are your morivations for supporting homosexuality and freemasonry.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: CRCulver on May 12, 2009, 07:38:19 AM
While Theoprovlitos' rhetoric may occasionally be over the top, it is not his imagination that the Finnish Orthodox Church is moving to embrace homosexual relationships. Spend a few weeks participating in church life in Helsinki's Uspensky Cathedral, or read the introductions to the Church written by clergy in the Finnish national press, and this will be very obvious to you. I don't see the Finnish Orthodox Church putting up a good fight in the culture war, and I expect it to depart from anything resembling world Orthodoxy in the coming decades. For my part, I'm happy that in just a couple of months I am leaving Finland for good and then can spend more of my time in my other jurisdiction, where for all its problems the Church does maintain a severe line on contemporary culture.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Veniamin on May 12, 2009, 09:33:25 AM
If you can't proof it then I can assume whatever I want. Now YOU have to proof which are your morivations for supporting homosexuality and freemasonry.

(http://www.superiorsilkscreen.com/upfiles/cart/i-dont-give-a-rats-ass.jpg)
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PoorFoolNicholas on May 12, 2009, 09:55:36 AM
Saunas are a normal part of Finish culture.  They are also a regular part of Russian culture.  Of course each time I went to the sauna (баня in Russian) it was a massive orgy of gay sex, so maybe you have a point.  Of course, you wouldn't want to take into account not imposing American cultural norms on a situation before making a snap judgement.
I don't know if I could laugh any harder....really, I'm serious.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PoorFoolNicholas on May 12, 2009, 09:56:12 AM
(http://www.superiorsilkscreen.com/upfiles/cart/i-dont-give-a-rats-ass.jpg)
Priceless..... :laugh:
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Anastasios on May 12, 2009, 10:01:23 AM
Temper temper,

now YOU are losing it and you know how it feels when they call you a fraud, simply because they want to cover up scandals which have to do with homosexuality. And a good reason I can think of is that they have their OWN reasons to do so.

One one good reason is that they might belong to thet close environment of those homosexual bishops that you just admited that they messed up the OCA church. And becasue we can't know who you are and what is your role in this forum, you have to proof now to me and to others that you do NOT belong to that environment of those rotten OCA bishops and therefore this is the reason why you defend with so much zeal those Finnish bishops who organize open homosexual meetings in their diocese.

If you can't proof it then I can assume whatever I want. Now YOU have to proof which are your morivations for supporting homosexuality and freemasonry.

Do you understand that:

1) People come on this site every week and make unfounded claims against various hierarchs
2) Some such claims can be considered libel and we could be sued for them if we let them stand
3) Most people on this site do not read Finnish or Greek, and that's ok
4) You are a newcomer to the site and instead of getting in to the community you've immediately started to post material that is sensational (I am not saying it is not true, but it is sensational).

It is for these reasons that posters are demanding you furnish more proof than just a blog or one web link.  I understand you have added more proof since then, which is good, but I see from the link that it is not clear who this bishop is and why he is on the programme. Did he approve of his name being put there? Has anyone asked him?

If someone were writing against your bishop in a public forum, you would ask for further evidence.

Trying to turn it around on the OCA and then accusing the person asking for proof of trying to cover up homosexuality is not going to win you any points.

If this bishop is indeed supporting homosexuality and freemasonry, I would like to see letters written to the Ecumenical Patriarch in protest.  But I also believe that before any accusations are assumed to be true, we must have all the facts.  This is what Christians do.

Certainly exposing such disturbing events is fine for a public internet forum, but you should keep points 1-4 above in mind as to why people are being firm with you to ask for the best proof possible.

Fr Anastasios
Administrator
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Anastasios on May 12, 2009, 10:04:40 AM


then OF COURSE I got angry but towards YOU guys, because I entered the forum to present SIMPLE NEWS without comments and you have attacked me,

That's not a purpose of a forum.

The purpose of a forum is for discussion.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: mike on May 12, 2009, 10:11:27 AM
I apologise for not trusting you (about Met. Ambrosius). However you should have posted the reliable and independent sources firstly, not your blog.

Quote
Same in this forum, NONE of you has expressed any opinion about homosexual ecclesiastical weddings,

Why to express an opinion about things which aren't present in EO Church?

Quote
I guess aritcles and links in Finnish or Greek won't do any help to you or would they?

It's an English forum not Finnish or Greek. Please post documents in English.

Quote
And how about the other priests which still appear on the link which is public of course? Are you suggesting that those priests are secretely participating in the conference adn the bishop hasn't noticed?

He is JUST participating, he's not a gay himself, he's not going to make gay weddings. I hope he'll explain the statement of EO Church on gay marriages. You think that national ecumenical organisations are very powerful and secretly they will to destroy the EO Church. I'm sorry to change you view but THEY MEAN NOTHING. They can organise some discussions or charity actions but it's all.

Quote
And becasue we can't know who you are and what is your role in this forum, you have to proof now to me and to others that you do NOT belong to that environment of those rotten OCA bishops and therefore this is the reason why you defend with so much zeal those Finnish bishops who organize open homosexual meetings in their diocese.

I'm a 18-year-old high school graduate. I've never been to Finland and the US. I personally have met only two people from CoF but I don't think it's an argument against me because I was about 9 then. The reason that I do not trust you is that I've read plenty of "proves" of Jews/freemasons/homosexuals/KGB agents/hidden Catholics/ in the EO hierarchy and it all wasn't true.

Thank God for my Finnish friends in the mountains with their cedar sauna. Makes mountain winters bearable!

I also have one at my place :)


Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: orthodoxlurker on May 12, 2009, 10:12:22 AM
Temper temper,

now YOU are losing it and you know how it feels when they call you a fraud, simply because they want to cover up scandals which have to do with homosexuality. And a good reason I can think of is that they have their OWN reasons to do so.

One one good reason is that they might belong to thet close environment of those homosexual bishops that you just admited that they messed up the OCA church. And becasue we can't know who you are and what is your role in this forum, you have to proof now to me and to others that you do NOT belong to that environment of those rotten OCA bishops and therefore this is the reason why you defend with so much zeal those Finnish bishops who organize open homosexual meetings in their diocese.

If you can't proof it then I can assume whatever I want. Now YOU have to proof which are your morivations for supporting homosexuality and freemasonry.

Good reasoning.

In fact, excellent.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Anastasios on May 12, 2009, 10:26:58 AM
I would like to address a good morning to the Inquisition.

Someone who is really objective would EASILY see that the two posts that I originally posted, one on homosexuality and the other on Freemasonry are NOTHING more than simple reproduction of NEWS the way they were presented in links. One text was even in English while the second text was nothing more that the translation from the Freemason magazine.

Yes, but people have posted things here that were not true before.

Quote
Therefore those of the inquisition who were stubbornly trying to prove me a fraud, now they try to present that I am spreading panic and hatred.

Why are you turning this personal? People want to make sure what you are saying is true. You're new here, so you don't have any credibility yet. It's natural.

Quote
Now if panic and hatred come to you from the simple reproduction of a news page, then you should check YOUR hearts and intentions and not mine.

I don't see anyone panicking. The Finnish Church is not exactly the biggest player in World Orthodoxy today.

Quote
If you haven't done all this organized attack towards my person and simply read the TRANSLATION or the REPRODUCTION of their own links, then you would be able to see both that in the original links and posts that I am not spreading any panick  as you accuse me. Just AWARENESS.

The point is, how do we know that you translated it correctly? or that you are who you say you are? Credibility is built over time.  We have many people who come here and say things. Should we believe them all instantly? Posters here are concerned about due diligence for both legal and moral reasons.

Quote
Now when I have before me 3-4 members of the inquisition interrogating me simply because

a) Either they don't WANT to believe what I am writing and so they express THEIR panic on my person
b) Either they want to COVER UP the whole thing in order not to spoil the "Public image" of some heretics
c) Either because they AGREE both with what is going on in the Finnish church

What kind of reasoning is this? You missed option d: they believe what you say is plausible, but since they are Christians, they would like to make sure there is NO OTHER POSSIBLE EXPLANATION for the actions before jumping to judge.


Quote
And when you present some NEWS based on LINKS about Freemasonry and open homosexuality within the Orthodox church and you get some people attack YOU, obviously you get angry, and raise your tone, simply because you realize that the people in a forum where you presented a problem, instead of confronting the heresy or write negative comments about the HERESY they write negative comments about YOU,

But an angry response is sinful. Why not seek to discuss the issue deeper? How you found this information? What steps you have taken? It just came off as rather accusatory.


Quote
Same in this forum, NONE of you has expressed any opinion about homosexual ecclesiastical weddings, and Freemasonry within the church.

That is absurd. There are dozens and dozens of threads about both these topics on this forum.

For the record, both are absolutely unorthodox.

Quote
Your ONLY goal was -and still is- to present me as crazy guy and to drive me crazy as well, having me trying to proof that I am not an elephant or a lunatic who sees "visions". OF COURSE I am angry. And OF COURSE I raise the tone towards people who claim to be Orthodox and they do not seem to understand that Freemasonry and homosexuality -especially as a church sacrement- have nothing to do with Orthodoxy.

That is quite an assumption to make about others.

Quote
I guess this is most probably because you agree whith what is happening in Finland (OCA is infamous among other jurisdictions in the USA for homosexual scandals) or probably you want to wait till you see the first homosexual wedding taking place in your OWN parish to believe. I am not sure however if you will feel sorry or if oyu will rejoice about it.

You are making yourself look worse by posting stuff like this.

The OCA has been dealing with accusations of homosexuality. I know of a priest who was deposed for it, and one of their most famous theologians (Fr Thomas Hopko) recently wrote a book reaffirming traditional views on homosexuality. I find your accusation baseless.

Quote
What I do feel however, is that if you want to believe yourselves christian you do owe me some appoligies for your overall attitude towards my person.

I think you owe the people you just accused of supporting homosexuality an apology too.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 12, 2009, 11:26:01 AM
Fr Anastasios,

My aim is certainly not bring the forum into a difficult situation, but many gave the impression that NO MATTER what I do, no matter what I present my data are not considerd as reliable.

I mean what on earth can be more relaible than the freemason magazine itself publishing an article about the forum and prayer with the Orthodox bishop. I present the original text in Finnish, if I presented the Greek transaltion it would be no good to you and when I do present the english transaltion then it is considered as unreliable jjust liek that! Because I made it. Actullay the Greek transaltion was not by me but it was emailed to me from Finland. So what do you expect to consider a publication reliable? Official transaltion form the Greek or the Finnish Embassy in New York? And why MY transaltion would en unreliable and someone else's wouldn't? And instead of focusing on the horrible issue of EXTREME ecumenism that considers Freemasons as one more Christian denomination or a simple society we have spend so much time to argue whether my translation is reliable or not.

ANd obviously becasue such a transaltion as you want it you are NEVER going to get it (because it will have to be from a trustworthy person of YOURS or the Finnish Embassy) then are you telling me that in vain I published the news in here?

The blog itself fully exposes me if I am a lier. You can check of yourself that there are hundreds of Finnish visitors lately. It would be for me very easy to be accused for a fraud.

Then on the homosexual marriages issue you are focusing ONLY on the bishop while the other names presented in the links are still there and they belong to IMPORTANT people in the Orthodox Church. Fr Heikki Huttunen, priest in the parish of St Herman of Alaska in Espoo suburb of Helsinki and general secretary of the ecumensit counsil of Finland, Jyrki Harkonen supporting openly and wrtiting awful articles in the rainbow Orthodox society of Finland, author of the Religion class schoolbook for the Orthodox Children (!) and Theological secretary of the Archbishop.

http://www.ort.fi/fi/yhteystiedot/hpk_kansliat.php

If you believe that the problem appeared all of a sudden well here is a whole discussion from a link that I found

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=18525.0

Since then things as I predicted last November are going from bad to worse

OF COURSE bishop Ambrosius was going to participate in that forum (there isn't any other gay forum with the same particiapansts and the same date and the same link so that google woulfd be foold) OF COURSE he was aware of it otherwise the organizers would be persecuted for fraud, OF COURSE bishop Ambrosius blesses the forum and gives permission to participate and OF COURSE the archbishop knows it all sicen his Theological Secretary is in the same pro-gay group as other participants. We are talking about a church of 50.000 faithful with 3 diocese in a country of 5 million people.

In the same forum you have seen the SPONTANIOUS reactions of the Synod of Finland because one of the priests in Helsinki is going to particiapte in the forthcoming european elections as a candidate. This was cosnidered to be so terrble that tehy immedaitely made a meeting to see what are they ging to do with that priest, and my blog is in the air for several days now, the programma of the gay Group is online since weeks now, the names of the Orthodox participants are there, the magzine of the freemason is in print since last February and NOBODY is doing anything about it. People complain to the EP and also to the Moscow Patriarchate and nothing happens.

I understand the Archbishop Leo was present in the enthronement of your bishop Jonah but this is not a good motivation to cover up the truth. Actually with several of these guys we were once upon a time friends. But the Church goes above friendships and public relatonships.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Anastasios on May 12, 2009, 11:31:14 AM
I will read your post in depth later today when I have some time, but a minor correction:

Quote
I understand the Archbishop Leo was present in the enthronement of your bishop Jonah but this is not a good motivation to cover up the truth. Actually with several of these guys we were once upon a time friends. But the Church goes above friendships and public relatonships.

I am not a member of the OCA nor is Metropolitan Jonah "my" bishop.

I am also not trying to cover up any truth.

in Christ,

Fr Anastasios
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 12, 2009, 12:02:38 PM
Fr Anastasios

Sometimes to make oneslef understood one has to use the right arguments that would hit the right key. I don't really care if there ahve been homosexual scandals in the OCA. And I don't even want to know the names.

But here we are dealing with an unjustice. You expect me to bring to you 1000 proofs about what I am saying while

a) There are enough proofs and evidences presented
b) It very easy for me to be exposed and very easy for you if you really want THAT badly proofs to pesent what I am saying to Finnish speaking people and they will see whther it true or fraud. I cannot present more proofs that there ease and I guess my word of mouth doesn't count otherwise I could have writtten MORE than the double in here from personal experiences and discussions.

No matter what I am not going to reveal my sources so that thsese people would be persecuted. They are already dealing with persecution, nor am I goin to publish an official letter of the Finnish Synod in a forum.

And when I am talking about gay heresy, beleive me I know VERY well waht I am talking about. Becuase the latest trend in Finnish Orthodoxy is to make the Epistles and the Old Testament unreliable and "reflecting the cultural habits and ethics of the Jews, and therefore whatever St Paul said cannot be granted as a dogma. And this is because both St Paul and the Old Testament speak negatively against homosexuality.

In general in the Finnish Orthodox Church there are no moral restrictions or self control about premarital relationships, getting drunk, homosexuality, fasting (they eat breakfast and leave for the Liturgy) and in general abstaining from anything. The moto is "If Jesus Himslef didn't say anything about it, then it is not forbidden".

I can even scan and publish this statement from one "Orthodox" magazine but agian it is in Finnish and as we all know my transaltions are unreliable. The same if I published the article saying that Jesus had special relationship with St John.

The situation in the Finnish CHurch is becasue of the low scandinavian morals as well ecumenism. Their idea is instead of bringing the church spirit in the world to bring the wordly spirit in the church and approaching the (rotten) society this way.

In the Lutheran CHurch the situation is outrageous. Recently a second pastor became trasnexual pastoress thanks to the pressure on the Lutheran Church by Yhteys (members of which are the Orthodox priests of Helsinki as well as the Secretary of Ecumenical counsel, an Orthodox Priest.).

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Transgender+Lutheran+vicar+wants+to+continue+his+pastoral+work/1135241026162

also

Finnish pastor causes controversy by blessing lesbian couple
A a pastor from Finland's state-supported Evangelical Lutheran Church went against church rules by blessing the partnership of a lesbian couple, according to the Finnish Broadcasting Company.

The Rev. Liisa Tuovinen, who performed the blessing, is not expected to be reprimanded unless somebody makes a formal complaint.

Lutheran bishops are expected to discuss their position on the issue of same-sex blessings next year.

Finland is considered to be liberal when it comes to gay rights issues and registered-partnerships came into being in 2002.


The fact is that Orthodox priest Huttunen OPENLY cooperates with Protestant pastoress Tuovinen in Yhteys ecumenist gay club and the Orthodox bishop simply ACCEPTS it.

In order to realize what the situation in Finland is Tuovinen, performed a ecclesiastical gay blessing for the lesbian couple and NOONE DARES to protest so that this blessing is eccelsiasticaly illegal.

THE SAME ideas are shared by Huttunen who also suggested in Aamun Koitto Orthodox blessing of the gay couples. And he still holds his position as an Orthodox parish priest adn a representative of the Orthodox CHurch in the Ecumensit counsil and the Ecumenist gay club Yhteys.

Now if you believe that all what I am saying is fiction please pay for me a transaltor or even better find a place for me in Hollywood as a movie-script writter so that I can at least make money.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: ialmisry on May 12, 2009, 12:17:15 PM
Fr Anastasios

Sometimes to make oneslef understood one has to use the right arguments that would hit the right key. I don't really care if there ahve been homosexual scandals in the OCA. And I don't even want to know the names.

But here we are dealing with an unjustice. You expect me to bring to you 1000 proofs about what I am saying while

a) There are enough proofs and evidences presented
b) It very easy for me to be exposed and very easy for you if you really want THAT badly proofs to pesent what I am saying to Finnish speaking people and they will see whther it true or fraud. I cannot present more proofs that there ease and I guess my word of mouth doesn't count otherwise I could have writtten MORE than the double in here from personal experiences and discussions.

No matter what I am not going to reveal my sources so that thsese people would be persecuted. They are already dealing with persecution, nor am I goin to publish an official letter of the Finnish Synod in a forum.

Why not?  Official usually means public.

Quote
And when I am talking about gay heresy, beleive me I know VERY well waht I am talking about. Becuase the latest trend in Finnish Orthodoxy is to make the Epistles and the Old Testament unreliable and "reflecting the cultural habits and ethics of the Jews, and therefore whatever St Paul said cannot be granted as a dogma. And this is because both St Paul and the Old Testament speak negatively against homosexuality.

In general in the Finnish Orthodox Church there are no moral restrictions or self control about premarital relationships, getting drunk, homosexuality, fasting (they eat breakfast and leave for the Liturgy) and in general abstaining from anything. The moto is "If Jesus Himslef didn't say anything about it, then it is not forbidden".

Although it's been a while since I've been in Finnland, and I don't speak Finnish (they speak English though), this doesn't strike me as the Church I saw in the late 80's.

Where exactly are you, that you have the pulse on the Church of Finland, and on the Church of Indonesia?

Quote
I can even scan and publish this statement from one "Orthodox" magazine but agian it is in Finnish and as we all know my transaltions are unreliable. The same if I published the article saying that Jesus had special relationship with St John.

The situation in the Finnish CHurch is becasue of the low scandinavian morals as well ecumenism. Their idea is instead of bringing the church spirit in the world to bring the wordly spirit in the church and approaching the (rotten) society this way.

In the Lutheran CHurch the situation is outrageous. Recently a second pastor became trasnexual pastoress thanks to the pressure on the Lutheran Church by Yhteys (members of which are the Orthodox priests of Helsinki as well as the Secretary of Ecumenical counsel, an Orthodox Priest.).

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Transgender+Lutheran+vicar+wants+to+continue+his+pastoral+work/1135241026162

also

Finnish pastor causes controversy by blessing lesbian couple
A a pastor from Finland's state-supported Evangelical Lutheran Church went against church rules by blessing the partnership of a lesbian couple, according to the Finnish Broadcasting Company.

The Rev. Liisa Tuovinen, who performed the blessing, is not expected to be reprimanded unless somebody makes a formal complaint.

Lutheran bishops are expected to discuss their position on the issue of same-sex blessings next year.

Finland is considered to be liberal when it comes to gay rights issues and registered-partnerships came into being in 2002.


The fact is that Orthodox priest Huttunen OPENLY cooperates with Protestant pastoress Tuovinen in Yhteys ecumenist gay club and the Orthodox bishop simply ACCEPTS it.

In order to realize what the situation in Finland is Tuovinen, performed a ecclesiastical gay blessing for the lesbian couple and NOONE DARES to protest so that this blessing is eccelsiasticaly illegal.

THE SAME ideas are shared by Huttunen who also suggested in Aamun Koitto Orthodox blessing of the gay couples. And he still holds his position as an Orthodox parish priest adn a representative of the Orthodox CHurch in the Ecumensit counsil and the Ecumenist gay club Yhteys.

Now if you believe that all what I am saying is fiction please pay for me a transaltor or even better find a place for me in Hollywood as a movie-script writter so that I can at least make money.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Fr. George on May 12, 2009, 12:21:43 PM
For those interested in Finnish to English translations (or Finnish to any other major language), try: translate.google.com
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Νεκτάριος on May 12, 2009, 12:43:19 PM
For those interested in Finnish to English translations (or Finnish to any other major language), try: translate.google.com

Google translator has a definite gay bias to it.  It is also owned by masons. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Veniamin on May 12, 2009, 12:46:49 PM
For those interested in Finnish to English translations (or Finnish to any other major language), try: translate.google.com

Google translator has a definite gay bias to it.  It is also owned by masons. 

Gay masons, at that.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: CRCulver on May 12, 2009, 01:07:38 PM
Again, people should stop jumping on Theoprovlitos. His concerns are valid. Just spend some time here, and you'll see that support for gay relationships is very much in the air among the Finns (much less so the Russians worshipping in churches here, of course).

For my part, even more disturbing than the increasing tolerance of homosexual relationships, which is not yet fully implemented, is the Church of Finland's open communion. Every Sunday in Uspensky you can see tourists going up and being given the Eucharist, some of whom aren't even Christian (I spoke to one such tourist once after the service, who turned out to be happily Hindu). Isn't the Lord's Body and Blood to be guarded with severity?

Then you have a problem with the Church of Finland commissioning liturgical music from non-Orthodox (or even non-Christians).

Again, I just can't wait to get out of here and spend all my time in a Church that seems in tune with world Orthodoxy.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Anastasios on May 12, 2009, 01:33:04 PM
Again, people should stop jumping on Theoprovlitos. His concerns are valid. Just spend some time here, and you'll see that support for gay relationships is very much in the air among the Finns (much less so the Russians worshipping in churches here, of course).

For my part, even more disturbing than the increasing tolerance of homosexual relationships, which is not yet fully implemented, is the Church of Finland's open communion. Every Sunday in Uspensky you can see tourists going up and being given the Eucharist, some of whom aren't even Christian (I spoke to one such tourist once after the service, who turned out to be happily Hindu). Isn't the Lord's Body and Blood to be guarded with severity?

Then you have a problem with the Church of Finland commissioning liturgical music from non-Orthodox (or even non-Christians).

Again, I just can't wait to get out of here and spend all my time in a Church that seems in tune with world Orthodoxy.

Of course his concerns are valid. I for one am not disputing that at all.

But Christians have to be very careful when they make basically charges of heresy against a bishop. That was the point being consistently made.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Andrew21091 on May 12, 2009, 01:51:09 PM
For my part, even more disturbing than the increasing tolerance of homosexual relationships, which is not yet fully implemented, is the Church of Finland's open communion. Every Sunday in Uspensky you can see tourists going up and being given the Eucharist, some of whom aren't even Christian (I spoke to one such tourist once after the service, who turned out to be happily Hindu). Isn't the Lord's Body and Blood to be guarded with severity?

What? Is this true?

That is terrible, I can't imagine that they could do that. If this is going on why haven't the other Orthodox Church bodies broke communion with them?
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 12, 2009, 01:54:23 PM
Well because some people ask.

I have been cooperating in the past with the Youth Foundation of the Church of Greece  as well as the department of external relations. I am a founding member of the Balkan Orthodox Youth Association. I am  correspondant of the Orthodox Magazine Road to Emmaus, an Orthodox publisher and distributor and I cooperate with Light and Life publishing, Eighth Day books, St Nektarios Press, St Vladimirs and St Tikhons Bookstore, Holy Cross bookstore etc.

I am also leading pilgrimages in Greece, but also Southern Italy, Turkey and Bulgaria.

In 2007 I was on a tour with American friends to the Western and Central states and visited several parishes of various jurisdictions.

I know in person Serbian bishop Maxim of Western America and Bulgarian bishop Joseph of America and Australia

I am originally a Greek from Alexandria, Egypt and my wife is a Finn. I cooperate with all orthodox boosktores in Finland, New Valaam and Litula monasteries as well as with the youth group of the Diocese of Helsinki.


Many of these people have been our friends and guests at home. BUT when I realized that nice people who were converts and were studying in Greece when they were going back to Finland they were spiritually ruined due to ecumenist heresies introduced but a specific group in the Finnish Chruch who gradually is taking over all positions in the Church while those who protest are being called as fundamentalists and fanatic zealots, homophobic etc I decided to stand up and do what I can.

My wife and kids are registered in the Finnish Orthodox Church but with the first opportunity we are going to unregister.

My major concern is that people all over the world will get to know Orthodoxy but the right way. Not excessive zealotism neither ecumenism that corrupts Orthodox dogmas.

I know that many don't like what I am wrting and I am now exposed but my Faith, Christ and the Church are above business and Public relations.

Do these make me more reliable?
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Veniamin on May 12, 2009, 01:55:56 PM
No, they don't make you more reliable.

Corroboration makes you more reliable.  Going on about all the nice stuff you do doesn't.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: AMM on May 12, 2009, 01:56:51 PM
I did find this.

http://ochlophobist.blogspot.com/2008/11/this-from-here-ht-to-fr.html
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 12, 2009, 02:01:13 PM
Andrew

THIS is what I am trying to do. Bring the issue on the surface! What was written about Communion to tourists in Helsinki is true.
You should see what is going on in Tapiola St Herman of Alaska Church whichas been turned to a gay club. Even married lesbians and many gay couples attend the service and receive communion as if nothing is wrong.

They don't even FAST anymore. The Romanian friend from Finland can probaly confrm whay I am saying.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: theistgal on May 12, 2009, 02:04:47 PM
I would like to address a good morning to the Inquisition.

No one expects ... the Finnish Inquisition!!!
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Andrew21091 on May 12, 2009, 02:09:16 PM
Andrew

THIS is what I am trying to do. Bring the issue on the surface! What was written about Communion to tourists in Helsinki is true.
You should see what is going on in Tapiola St Herman of Alaska Church whichas been turned to a gay club. Even married lesbians and many gay couples attend the service and receive communion as if nothing is wrong.

They don't even FAST anymore. The Romanian friend from Finland can probaly confrm whay I am saying.

Lord have mercy.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 12, 2009, 02:12:31 PM
Well Veniamin,

I cannot present more proofs in English that there are, unless I start... making up some.

Anyway lingusitic isolation of the Church of Finland has brought her here where she is now. Because if they were speaking English EVERYBODY would have access to their writings and fallacies a long time ago and my presence here wouldn't be necessary.

All you can do is pray for those who resist and who are scattered "for the fear of the Jews". The last stronghold is Valaam Monastery but they are threatening it with boycott.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Νεκτάριος on May 12, 2009, 02:19:02 PM
Do these make me more reliable?

I've run into this sort of thing a lot through my contacts with the some of the organisations you mentioned in Greece - an absolute love of using unsourced gossip.  Among informal settings, I was often subjected to this sort of thing "I heard x,y,z and I know it's true because so and so told me".  Very often x,y,z ended up being something completely ludicrous (that no Jews were killed on 9/11 since the Mossad warned them all to stay home).  The problem is that when these sorts of ideas are mixed in with legitimate Orthodox ideas, most people dismiss all of what is said.  

I've never been to Finland, but I do know some Russians who have - and the description about the Orthodox Church there has never been entirely positive.  So the accusations you make seem entirely plausible to me.  On the other hand, if you are going to publicly make them, you had better have very solid evidence.  In Western culture that means independent sources that corroborate your thesis.  If you can put together such a document that presents your case with solid sources, then it certainly would be an asset to the Church and I'd hope that action would be taken (either the Church in Finland be cleaned up, or excommunicated).  

Also, the bit about Masons is old news.  Even mentioning them as some sort of conspiratorial group makes any point you have to make laughable to most Western readers.      
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Νεκτάριος on May 12, 2009, 02:20:19 PM
Well Veniamin,

I cannot present more proofs in English that there are, unless I start... making up some.

Anyway lingusitic isolation of the Church of Finland has brought her here where she is now. Because if they were speaking English EVERYBODY would have access to their writings and fallacies a long time ago and my presence here wouldn't be necessary.

All you can do is pray for those who resist and who are scattered "for the fear of the Jews". The last stronghold is Valaam Monastery but they are threatening it with boycott.

Then perhaps your wife and others who feel this is a serious issue would be willing to translate texts? 
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: shep4569 on May 12, 2009, 03:20:07 PM
I'll cover a few things before I'm done with this topic, because it's exhausting. Is this what the early fathers went through in defending the chruch? :)

First, there's nothing wrong with homosexuals attending divine services. However they should be under the priest's spiritual direction. For example, there is a homosexual man in my parish, but he has devoted himself to a life of celibacy and receives counseling from our priest. He receives all the sacraments as a normal Orthodox Christian. I don't think he should be denied because he has an innate attraction to men. I don't think I could just up and stop being attracted to women. I don't think think it's kosher, though, to have practicing homosexual couples receiving the sacraments. If you're homosexual and embrace it, you obviously don't have a place in the church.

Second, just having clerics participating in a conference doesn't mean they accept what is going on. Honestly, I don't approve of it either, but it seems as though they are just presenting the Orthodox views on sexuality: "General secterary, Father Heikki Huttunen, Ecumenical Counsel of Finland, Orthodox church of Finland: Human sexuality in the Orthodox theology ". There's nothing wrong with presenting our views. It doesn't say "Fr. X of the OC will speak about the church's coming acceptance of homosexuality". Obviously that would be heretical.

Third, while I am deeply saddened to hear some of the things that may be going on in the Orthodox Church of Finland, I am tempered by the fact that the true church of Christ will always live on in her true faithful. As St. Paul says in 1 Cor. 11:18-19 "For, in the first place, when you assemble as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you; and I partly believe it, for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized." I understand that we must do our best to keep the church from going astray, but our bishops are supposed to bear the blunt of it as the leaders of their respective flocks. As yet, I haven't heard any bishops speak out against the Finnish church. Hopefully they will.

Last, am I a heretic for consorting with people of other faiths? I don't believe them, but they're my friends, and I coexist with them and pray for them just as a Christian should. For pete's sake, there are those in the church that would describe us as heretical because we no longer go by the Julian Calendar. How far do we go? Avoiding people of other beliefs isn't always the answer. You don't have to condone their beliefs. Should we stop consorting with Jews? After all, they did crucify our Savior....
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Marjaana on May 12, 2009, 04:19:26 PM
From someone who actually reads Finnish...

The Forum is organized as part of an European wide annual event. It seems to be Finland's turn. It is hosted by Arcus Group in co-operation with Yhteys Movement and Orthodox Rainbow Society. The Arcus and the Yhteys Movement are ecumenical movements focusing on LBGT issues.  The Orthodox Rainbow Society is specific to Orthodox people. All are independent organizations who have no official affiliations with the Orthodox Church in Finland. Father Heikki Huttunen who is the head of the Finnish Ecumenical Council seems to be also member of Yhteys, but he seems to be participating as a private individual. He lists his title as pastor, and does not use the title Father. On the list only one other person is listed as pastor. All the the other people seem to be lay people.

I checked for any metions on homosexuality on the Orthodox Church of Finalnd site and could not find anything that would differ from official Orthodox dogma. Certainly there is no mention either on the Ecumenical Council site or the Orthodox Church of Finland site of the Forum.

It seems to me that a group of Orthodox Finns feel differently about the teachings and are creating a movement around it and are forcing the church to talk about it.

This is of course quite different than saying that the Orthodox Church of Finland is organizing the Forum.

I have not been able to verify the program yet, even on the site of the organization hosting it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 12, 2009, 04:26:09 PM
From someone who actually reads Finnish...

The Forum is organized as part of an European wide annual event. It seems to be Finland's turn. It is hosted by Arcus Group in co-operation with Yhteys Movement and Orthodox Rainbow Society. The Arcus and the Yhteys Movement are ecumenical movements focusing on LBGT issues.  The Orthodox Rainbow Society is specific to Orthodox people. All are independent organizations who have no official affiliations with the Orthodox Church in Finland. Father Heikki Huttunen who is the head of the Finnish Ecumenical Council seems to be also member of Yhteys, but he seems to be participating as a private individual. He lists his title as pastor, and does not use the title Father. On the list only one other person is listed as pastor. All the the other people seem to be lay people.

I checked for any metions on homosexuality on the Orthodox Church of Finalnd site and could not find anything that would differ from official Orthodox dogma. Certainly there is no mention either on the Ecumenical Council site or the Orthodox Church of Finland site of the Forum.

It seems to me that a group of Orthodox Finns feel differently about the teachings and are creating a movement around it and are forcing the church to talk about it.

This is of course quite different than saying that the Orthodox Church of Finland is organizing the Forum.

I have not been able to verify the program yet, even on the site of the organization hosting it.
Thank you for the information, Marjaana, and welcome to the forum. ;D
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Marjaana on May 12, 2009, 04:34:30 PM

Link to the program

http://www.yhteys.org/EF2009programme.pdf

I haven't been able to find a more detailed program anywhere.

Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 12, 2009, 06:08:42 PM
Marjaana,

Your statements already show that you do not know the role of the Orthodox priest.

1. Are you saying that as a priest can leads a different life than as an individual? As a priest he serves divine Liturgy while as an individual he could even participate in satanistic ceremonies and there is no problem as long as he doesn't use the prefix Fr.?

2. Is he going to present the Orthodox views on homosexuality or what HE believes to be Orthodox and only him and the alike? Because from what we have been reading in Aamu Koitto his views are deeply heretical and they do not reflect not even Protestant theology but a new cult whcih exists only in Finland and no other church in the wold as far as I know

3. Is his lecture going to be of the same spirit as the statment of beliefs of he Ecumensit Organisation Yhteys which are deeply heretical or completely different?

4. Is he going to Repeat the statment that was published in AAmun Koitto that Christ was gay?

5. Is he going to particiapate in the conference to show them that they are in the wrong way or to tell them that he fully agrees with them and their work?

6. Is he cooperating with the woman pastoress who recently blessed a lesbian couple in the Lutheran Church?

7. Does the Finnish Orthodox church have a variety of services and Liturgies according to the taste of his faithful. E.g. Liturgy for Eurovision song contest fans, for blond ladies, Old men who use viagra, for those who like Spain as a holiday place etc?

8. Is the "Orthodox priest" from Southern Finland who is going to give a lecture about "Whether an Orthodox priest can love and live with another man" (according to the program) going to give a whole lecture just to say in the end NO HE CAN'T? Or is he going to say OF COURSE he can?

9. When you pray the Creed do you add Filioque or you don't in ecumensit prayers? Because in 2005 when the World Counsil of Churches organized a conference I was standing next to one of thos epriest adn noticed that he DID mention Filioque for the sake of unity.

That's only a couple of thoughts. There are much more than that.



Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Orest on May 12, 2009, 06:20:11 PM
From someone who actually reads Finnish...

The Forum is organized as part of an European wide annual event. It seems to be Finland's turn. It is hosted by Arcus Group in co-operation with Yhteys Movement and Orthodox Rainbow Society. The Arcus and the Yhteys Movement are ecumenical movements focusing on LBGT issues.  The Orthodox Rainbow Society is specific to Orthodox people. All are independent organizations who have no official affiliations with the Orthodox Church in Finland. Father Heikki Huttunen who is the head of the Finnish Ecumenical Council seems to be also member of Yhteys, but he seems to be participating as a private individual. He lists his title as pastor, and does not use the title Father. On the list only one other person is listed as pastor. All the the other people seem to be lay people.

I checked for any metions on homosexuality on the Orthodox Church of Finalnd site and could not find anything that would differ from official Orthodox dogma. Certainly there is no mention either on the Ecumenical Council site or the Orthodox Church of Finland site of the Forum.

It seems to me that a group of Orthodox Finns feel differently about the teachings and are creating a movement around it and are forcing the church to talk about it.

This is of course quite different than saying that the Orthodox Church of Finland is organizing the Forum.

I have not been able to verify the program yet, even on the site of the organization hosting it.

Thank you for your voice of sanity.  I went through the same process and did not find any official connection at all with the Finnish Orthodox Church.

The title of this thread is very misleading.  I would appeal to the administraters  to add the word "alleged" to the title in the interests of fairness and respect to the Finnish Orthodox Church.

There is no evidence at all that the Finnish Orthodox Church has taken a publc stand that is out of conformity with the rest of the Orthodox comminion on this topic.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 12, 2009, 06:35:11 PM
Also

in Yhteys page on Bible on homosexuality

http://www.yhteys.org/raamattu_frame.html

the title "Ei Synti eika sairaus" does it mean indeed in Finnish that according to Yhteys Homosexuality is "Neither a Sin nor an Illness"


Do the following Orthodox Priests who are active members of Yhteys share this idea?


http://www.yhteys.org/ortodoksit_frame.html


Heikki Huttunen, pastori, Espoo (General Secretary of Ecumenical Counsel)
Jyrki Harkonen, toimittaja, Lohja (Theological Secretary of the Archbishop Leo)
Johannes Karhusaari, pastor, Helsinki (ex youth priest)
Tapani Karkkainen, Helsinki (till recently publisher of Orthodox magazines married to a man)
Juha Lampinen, deacon, Helsinki
Timo Lehmuskoski, priest, Helsinki
Markku Salminen, priest, Helsinki (Chief priest in the parish of Helsinki)

Do the above share the following ideas from Yhteys DISorganization, or they don;t have internet at hoem and they didn't know?

Joh. 16:12-13:ssa Vapahtaja toteaa: "Paljon enemmδnkin minulla olisi teille puhuttavaa, mutta te ette vielδ kykene ottamaan sitδ vastaan. Kun Totuuden Henki tulee, hδn johtaa teidδt tuntemaan koko totuuden." Pyhδ Henki johtaa kirkkoa tuntemaan totuuden myφs homoseksuaalisuudesta.

or in English

"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth" The Holy Spirit is leading the Church to get to know the truth also about homosexuality.

IS THE TRANSALTION CORRECT OR NO?

And does it mean -as far as I can understand- that for centuries the fathers of the desert in Egypt and in Syria, Patriarchs and ascetics, Greeks, Arabs and Slavs, Irish and Latins. elders and saInts, Church fathers and Holy people, for 2.000 years could not know because they were enlighted in many different serious dogmatic issues BUT ONE: HOMOSEXUALITY!

And now rejoice my brethren. A group of ecumenists from Finland in the year 2006 or so AT LAST, as  NEW PENTECOST where guided by the Holy Secret to discover the second more important thing after the Lost Ark: That homosexualtiy is not a Sin nor an Illness but something absolutely natural and acceptable and therefore from now one GOOD NEWS, we DOUBLED our chances to find the right spouse becasue we can freely look both among men and women to find Mr or Mrs right and the Church will bless us as the Nee Church Father of Northern Thebais suggest.

My God THIS IS BLASPHEMY TOWARDS THE HOLY SPIRIT!
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 12, 2009, 06:41:04 PM
Orestis

Peopel who do not WANT to believe they selectively see what they WANT to see. You do not even speak Finnish adn you know nothing about the issue but yuo are easily claime that all the data which I present are "misleading".

Then in this case you belong to the same team who wants to make people SHUT UP  becuase they protest for teh grdual indrodcution of homosecyality in the church.

I left even more links above and waiting for answers. Though I suspect that I am rather going to get excuses and evasions
(http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/Themes/default/images/warnwarn.gif) Theoprovlitos,
More than 48 hours ago, you were given 48 hours to recant your accusations that those who have here questioned your sources are acting on a secret agenda to introduce Freemasonry and homosexuality into the Church and to apologize to those you accused.  You have not done so yet; in fact, you have done the exact opposite by continuing to make these accusations.  Therefore, you are receiving this formal warning for slanderous ad hominems against members of this forum.  If you continue to make such accusations, you will be placed on post moderation, which means that your posts will need to be approved by a moderator before they appear on the forum.  If you feel this warning is in error, feel free to use the private messaging system to appeal my decision to either cleveland or Veniamin.
- PeterTheAleut
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 12, 2009, 07:09:59 PM
Ok Guyes here's more:

The Question About Homosexuals is Complicating Relationships Between the Orthodox in Russia and Finland

If I am "unreliable" who would dare name unreliable the MOSCOW PATRIARCHATE? The article publsihed here is from the Finnish Orthodox Rainbow Society and it is written by the current Theological Secreteray of Archbishop Leo. One can EASILY read between the lines that the Finnish Churches are DEEPLY problematic.

___________

Attitudes towards homosexuals is becoming the key issue of Orthodox church politics. The Russian media has presented the gay-liberal outlining of Finnish orthodox priests, which is strictly condemned by the Patriarchate of Moscow.

According to Russian sources, the visibly positive attitude towards homosexuality in the Finnish Orthodox circles might expedite the Patriarchate of Moscow to take the decision to establish a Russian diocese in Finland.

Russian portals ”religio” and ”portal-credo” have especially drawn attention to the statements of father Heikki Huttunen, the General Secretary of the Ecumenical Council of Finland and an orthodox priest. Huttunen is one of the Orthodox activists of Yhteys-liike (’connection’, ‘bond of unity’), a movement fighting against discrimination of homosexuals in Finnish society and churches and promoting the right of the employees of the churches for civil partnerships.


”Patriarchia”, the official internet portal of the Patriarchate of Moscow released a piece of news in July 2006, telling that neither the head of the Orthodox church in Finland, Archbishop Leo, is not ready to judge homosexuality like the Russian Orthodox church does.

In addition to this, the Patriarchate of Moscow mentioned by name those Finnish Orthodox priests who are involved in the activities of Yhteys-liike.

The attitude towards homosexuality in the Patriarchate of Moscow is absolute. The Holy Synod of Moscow cut off their relationships with the Lutheran Church of Sweden in December 2005, as the Swedish Church had decided to start giving blessing to same-sex unions.

Attitude towards homosexuals dispersing the Orthodox in Finland

Three Orthodox theologians are demanding Archbishop Leo to prohibit Orthodox priests from being involved in the activities of Yhteys-liike.
According to the letter of these theologians to Archbishop, the gay-sympathies of the priests are making members of the Orthodox Church in Finland consider moving to other ecclesiastic institutions.

The letter written by Hannu Pöyhönen, lecturer at Valamo Lay Academy, Markus Paavola and Heikki Alex Saulamo also threatens that if the leaders of the church do not demand that the priests dissociate immediately from the aims of Yhteys-liike, ”the conscience of the writers demands them to act in another way in this issue”.

Pöyhönen, Paavola and Saulamo are confirming that homosexuality is a question of church politics. According to them ”it is yet more justified to spread other Orthodox jurisdictions into Finland, if our local church does not hold to the Orthodox teaching”.

Looking forward to sexual-political statement

The question of the attitudes of the Orthodox people towards homosexuals was raised in January 2007 when the Orthodox magazine Aamun Koitto interviewed father Heikki Huttunen and father Timo Lehmuskoski.
In the interview Huttunen and Lehmuskoski encouraged the Orthodox people into open discussion about homosexuality, and to reconsider old interpretations about homosexuality, based on the fear of aberrance and anomaly.

Meanwhile Pöyhönen, Paavola and Saulamo are demanding the Orthodox council of bishops to make strictly condemning statement on homosexuality. They consider the statement of the council of bishops, made 8 years ago, to be inadequate. In that statement, given to the Finnish Parliament on behalf of the Orthodox church, the bishops give their support to the traditional family-institution but they do not condemn homosexuality.

© Jyrki Härkönen, March 2007 (The article of Jyrki Härkönen translated by Ortodoksinen Sateenkaariseura, 20.3.2007)

http://sateenkaariseura.wordpress.com/articles-from-other-sites/the-question-about-homosexuals-2032007/

CONCLUSIONS

1. Finnish Orthodox church is rottening and fallign apart anf a schism is ahead of us

2. Moscow Patriarchete is AWARE of the problem but the Finns ignore them because "those Russian guys know nothing"

3. Finnish Archbishop is FULLY aware of what is going on in his church and he lets it happen

4. Huttunen is an ACTIVE member of Yhteys and NOT a "visitor"

5. Huttunen is introducing civil gay marriages also among the ORTHODOX (in previous article in Aamun Koitto he also suggested eccelsiasticl blessing of such marriages)

6. Huttunen as the Secretary of Finnish Ecumensit Counsil is in communion with the Swedish LUTHERAN church that blesses Ecclesiastical gay marriages, since as a secretary he EQUALY represent the Lutheran Church

7. Those who protest are discribed as fundamentalist, fanatics, conservative (And I KNOW that they are aslo persecuted)

8. Aamun Koitto "Orthodox" has published scandalous and blasphemus ideas by Huttunen as we keep claiming and it is mentioned here.

9. Huttunen is promoting demonically the change of Orthodox dogmas and ethics as "based on the fear of aberrance and anomaly" in order to introduce homosexuality in the church.

DO YOU HAVE STILL DOUBTS? Enough for tonight. More tomorrow with Archbishop's statement in the Lutherna magazine Kotimaa.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 12, 2009, 10:41:31 PM
Ok Guyes here's more:

The Question About Homosexuals is Complicating Relationships Between the Orthodox in Russia and Finland

If I am "unreliable" who would dare name unreliable the MOSCOW PATRIARCHATE? The article publsihed here is from the Finnish Orthodox Rainbow Society and it is written by the current Theological Secreteray of Archbishop Leo. One can EASILY read between the lines that the Finnish Churches are DEEPLY problematic.

...

© Jyrki Härkönen, March 2007 (The article of Jyrki Härkönen translated by Ortodoksinen Sateenkaariseura, 20.3.2007)

http://sateenkaariseura.wordpress.com/articles-from-other-sites/the-question-about-homosexuals-2032007/
This Jyrki Härkönen appears to be more important an individual in the Finnish Orthodox Church than for me to trust solely to an article copied into someone else's blog and attributed to him.  If he's so important and widely known in Finland, I'm sure you can find some more authoritative source of news on him or a more credible online medium for his public communications.

DO YOU HAVE STILL DOUBTS?
Yes, I still have doubts about these sources you provide as authoritative.  Since anyone can say anything about any individual in a blog and offer it up to the internet as absolute truth, I don't trust in blogs as online evidence for anything.  Stop linking us to blog entries, then, and link us only to official news sources and documents on the official web sites of recognizable organizations, and I think what you want to share with us will appear a lot more believable.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 13, 2009, 02:15:02 AM
Listen Peterthe Aleut

There is REAAALY somenthing worng with you. If you are gay, it is better to admit it and we can openly disucss on a different basis that pretending not seeing things which are obviously there, questining my credibility, and when I publish DOZENS of various links from differnet sources, even OFFICIAL ones you ar doubting the sources. As if Yhteys OFFICIAL site with Harkonen's name is not enough.

Thank God the Russian Patriarchate who reseives the same information transalted in Russian as well as the Bureau of the Foreign Affaris of the Church of Greece do not behave like you.

The reason of your presence here is obvsiouly to cover up things and distort the truth.

First you question whether I am reliable.

Then I presnt you a document where Harkonen himslef is describing the situation and you are questioning if the link of Sateenkaariseura is valid and if Harkonen supports them which is MORE than obvious that he does from other sites. And you suggests that some dark powers have made a HUGE comspiracy "setting up fake websites", "putting people's names in official sites without knowing it", "creating fake conferences", "putting in people's mouths things which they haven't said", "hackers changing official sites" and so on.

But because you wander if Orthodox Rainbow Society (which by the way is created by Jyrki Harkonen himself, Tapani Karkainen, -the "Orthodox" married to a man publisher who runs the headquarters of the gay propaganda a the once-uopon-a-time orthodox magazine Aamun Koitto where he openly suggest ecclesiastical marriage of gay couples and that Christ was gay- and Simo Haavisto, a worker of the Diocese of Helsinki (and a good friend of mine which unfortunately was ruined by the gay mafia) who repeated in his interview the quote: "Jesus himself said nothing against homosexuality and therefrore it is not a sin") here is the link published at the gay web site with Harkonen's text from his PERSONAL web library

THE TEXT: http://kotisivu.dnainternet.net/harkojyr/artikkelit/homoseksuaalisuus_hiertaa_suomen_ja_venajan_suhteita.html

HIS HOME WEB PAGE:
http://kotisivu.dnainternet.net/harkojyr/index.htm

AN INTRODUCTION IN ENGLISH
http://kotisivu.dnainternet.net/harkojyr/in_english.htm

So Ta daaaa!
My link was more than valid and nobody "put to Harkonen's mouth things which he didn't say".

Unless, UNLESS...
oH my GOD! Someone ELSE pretends to be Harkonen's REPLICA on the web, and he has created a false Identity and he is writing even articles and news just to EXPOSE HIM.

How come I haven't thought of that before!
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: shep4569 on May 13, 2009, 04:15:14 AM
And you suggests that some dark powers have made a HUGE comspiracy "setting up fake websites", "putting people's names in official sites without knowing it", "creating fake conferences", "putting in people's mouths things which they haven't said", "hackers changing official sites" and so on.

I don't recall anyone making those arguments. I know it must be difficult, but don't create things out of thin air, strawman.

Also, since the "Orthodox Rainbow Society" is not a church-sanctioned group and is obviously sinful, you can't charge it's actions against the Finnish church as a whole. That would be presumptuous. As far as I can see, none of this has hierarchical involvement or sanction, apart from +Ambrosius' name being removed from the page, and we don't know the reason.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Alpo on May 13, 2009, 04:38:41 AM
For my part, even more disturbing than the increasing tolerance of homosexual relationships, which is not yet fully implemented, is the Church of Finland's open communion. Every Sunday in Uspensky you can see tourists going up and being given the Eucharist, some of whom aren't even Christian (I spoke to one such tourist once after the service, who turned out to be happily Hindu). Isn't the Lord's Body and Blood to be guarded with severity?

What? Is this true?
No, it's not. I don't know what is going on in Uspensky but in my parish it is regulargy said before pre-communion prayers in Liturgy that the Eucharist is reserved for those Orthodox Christians who have prepared for it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 13, 2009, 05:17:58 AM
shep4569

Please read form the start Peter the Aleuts comments and constant accusations that I am presenting fake links and proof and that I am not trustworthy and you will understand what I mean.

I am sure you DO understand that whan can leave hints on the air about someone without really naming things by word.

Also please, PLEASE do not drive me crazy. A couple of post above I posted the names of IMPORTANT priests and Laymen in the Orthodox Finnish church who OPENLY and PUBLICLY participate in those gay groups and who OBVIOULSY agree with the heresies which I just presented above. Please before making comment read CAREFULLY all the elements which I present before driving into conclusions.

We are talking about the Theological Secretery of the Finnish Archbishop (in other words the person who is in charge of dogmatic issues in the Church of Finland) a) Writing Hereticl views b) Reproducing Protestant heretical views c) Be OPENLY an ACTIVE member of the sinful cult groups you just admited.

And we are talking in another forum for days whether a drunken bishop who grabbed a woman's breast in a casino should lose his position or even get excommunicated and here we have Orthodox bishops and priests caliming that it is ok with men EVEN PRIESTS touching whatever you may think of and it is OK?

Are we all gone crazy?
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 13, 2009, 05:33:43 AM
Alpo is your parish located in Helsinki? Is it in Espoo or other town or diocese?

Do they teach you to fast a bit before Communion? Because in some parishes people are having breakfast and then they go to the Liturgy and receive.

It definetly is question of the priest. However looking things since the last 13 years ago ecumenism has been proven CATASTROPHIC for the Orthodox Church because all these heretical ideas, and views have been gradually introduced into orthodoxy from the collasping protestant Church.

For the sake of ecumenism and New Age "love" they have been fradually accepting those protestant ideas as well as immorality from the society and the world. Tell me please have you EVER heard ANY speach at least in Helsinki Uspensky or in a youth group a teaching why getting DRUNK is sinful and does not match the Orthodox lifestyle? No wander if you didn't because EVERY time youth grousp from Finland come to Greece their pilgrimage includes a GET-DRUNK party till you can hardy walk even at 06 p.m. in the evening.

And I wasn't told about that , I saw it with my own esys when I was asked to arrange the program of a Finnish youth group when they visited Greece. They went to a cafeteria to "watch a sports event" escorted by the priests Fr Heikki Huttunen and Andreas Larikka, myslef and the Estonian Orthodox Margus Kivi from Tallinn. The kids by 06:00 p.m. were all drunk! Even Margus freaked out and was embarrassed with the soectacle of the Finnish Orthodox Christian Youth!

I wander what their spiritual fathers are teaching them! Obviously according to them EVERYTHING is allowed as long as you are "a good person" according to the New Age ethics, and definitely not according to Orthodox or even Roman Catholic.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Alpo on May 13, 2009, 06:16:41 AM
Alpo is your parish located in Helsinki? Is it in Espoo or other town or diocese?
It's located in the diocese of Karelia. I used to live in Helsinki couple of years ago but I attended services in Uspensky only occasionally back then and didn't know personally any actual members of the parish.

Quote
Do they teach you to fast a bit before Communion?
I'm a bit wrong person to ask for these kind of questions. I've got most of my information about Orthodoxy from books, internet and of course by participating services but I know quite a little about how people are normally catechised etc. All I know that I was aware that the Orthodox Eucharist is reserved only for Orthodox Christians who have fasted and perhaps confessed before communing long before I became a catechumen.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Marjaana on May 13, 2009, 09:49:23 AM
Never mind!
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PoorFoolNicholas on May 13, 2009, 09:55:31 AM
Listen Peterthe Aleut

There is REAAALY somenthing worng with you. If you are gay, it is better to admit it and we can openly disucss on a different basis that pretending not seeing things which are obviously there, questining my credibility...The reason of your presence here is obvsiouly to cover up things and distort the truth...
Uh.....you are really flinging some ridiculous insults. Let me use your logic for a moment....are you a homophobe?
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 13, 2009, 10:16:21 AM
Alpo

There are of course priests in Finland who keep traditional Orthodoxy. They are just afraid or too weak to shout.

However I want to make clear that what I am writing here are not dogmatic problems of Orthodoxy, but on the contrary they are problems of the Protestant chrches which since they rejected the church traditions and dogmas they are TOO weak anymore to confront the heretical people who appeared through the ages. This phenomenon in Finland gives us an idea what has been happening again and again when various deluded people thought they "could save the world" and that ALL others were wrong or missing something and all of a sudden it was THEM that the "Holy Sprit" showed them the truth.
In reality heresy comes from PRIDE and lack of humility of the heretic. The fact that those "Orthodox" priests are talking in a negative way for ALL other churches (conservative, fundamentalist, anti-liberal etc) while they have the delusion that "the Holy Spirit is revealing to them the truth about homosexuality" -as I posted earlier from one of their links- shows that something is wrong with them.

Actually I know what is wrong. One rotten apple is enough so that little by little the whole basket is rottening.

These ideas were intorduced to the Finnish Orthodox Church from Protestants through ecumenism. Trying to find a "common ground" this can only happen by leaving orthodox dogmas behind and introduce foreign dogmas and fallacies, a bit or the Evangelical, a bit of the Roamn catholic, a bit of the pentecostals and this mixture of dogmas is called "Unification of the Church".

I am married to a exprotestant Finn and we have so many friends and relatives there. SO it is not question of talking and living with them on a INDIVIDUAL base. But as  a CHURCH the only thing that can happen is CATASTROPHY. It is better to believe that the Filioque of the Latins is right than to believe that it is both right and wrong. This practically means " I really don't know what to believe and whether I am right or wrong".

I must say that the large number of converts in the Finnish church which has been catechised by other converts who in reality NEVER abandoned their protestant mindset and worldview. And among them some SPECIFIC ones even thought that they are going to teach the Russians the Greeks the Serbs or the Arabs what Orthodoxy REALLY is becasue we didn't know so far! They are those that the gospel calls wolves in disguise as ship! And they entered the church in order to ruin her FROM the INSIDE.

However no matter what problems Orthodoxy faces this IS the church and look no more. Howeer you need proper catechism adn I cannot know whether your priest is among the good ones.
Some practical things you can do is

1. Try to find a priest who is traditional

2. Visit often Valamo monastery. They have some traditional or I should say ORTHODOX people there and the climate is healthier.

3. Come to Mt Athos as often as you can as wellas to other monasteries

4. Visit Russia and Russian Monasteries which are next door

5. If you can, visit other Orthodox countries as well, to see that I am not just a "Greek fundamentalist".

6. Try to avoid those evolutionist and spiritually corrupted orthodox people because you are going to become just one of them

7. NEVER look back at the Protestant Churches. As they are nowadays the cannot even called "Churches" but clubs of people who THINK they are Christian but they are far from being
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 13, 2009, 10:25:09 AM
PoorFoolNicholas

No, I am a HERETOPHOBE.

That's what I said: If he WAS a gay then we could have a better discussion. Because he is doesn't say HIS views, but hidden behind his anonymity he is constantly attacking me by calling me a fraud. And this is even worse because so far the supporters of the Finnish ecumensit heretical gay mafia haven't said ONE word or a theological argument. They are only targeting at me, my credibility and the credibility of my sources becasue I am spoiling their soup which they named "Orthodox ethics".
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PoorFoolNicholas on May 13, 2009, 10:35:02 AM
PoorFoolNicholas

No, I am a HERETOPHOBE
That's what I said: If he WAS a gay then we could have a better discussion. Because he is doesn't say HIS views, but hidden behind his anonymity he is constantly attacking me by calling me a fraud. And this is even worse because so far the supporters of the Finnish ecumensit heretical gay mafia haven't said ONE word or a theological argument. They are only targeting at me, my credibility and the credibility of my sources becasue I am spoiling their soup which they named "Orthodox ethics".
Have you ever written for JesusisSaviour.com? Why is it that when someone disagrees with you, suddenly this grand conspiracy just happens to unfold? Maybe you could provide something that you don't have to translate for us. You certainly can realize why we don't trust your conclusions. But to accuse someone that disagrees of being, OR possibly being a homosexual, is ridiculous. I posit that once no one cares about your "pet" theories anymore, we will never hear from you again. You certainly fit the mold of conspiritorial cranks that pop up on this forum from time to time. And please stop referring to those of a homosexual persuasion as "a gay". It is offensive, and uncharitable. You lose even more credibility when you use coarse speech such as this.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 13, 2009, 11:54:20 AM
And becasue we can't know who you are and what is your role in this forum, you have to proof now to me and to others that you do NOT belong to that environment of those rotten OCA bishops and therefore this is the reason why you defend with so much zeal those Finnish bishops who organize open homosexual meetings in their diocese.

If you can't proof it then I can assume whatever I want. Now YOU have to proof which are your morivations for supporting homosexuality and freemasonry.

Then in this case you belong to the same team who wants to make people SHUT UP  becuase they protest for teh grdual indrodcution of homosecyality in the church.
Theoprovlitos,

You have more than twice now alleged that those who question your credibility and your sources are in league to shut you up because they support Freemasonry and the introduction of homosexuality into the Church.  I'm not aware that anyone whom you have accused has ever admitted to any such motive.  So you have 48 hours to either publicly recant your slanderous accusations and apologize to those you have accused or face the consequences of slandering members of this forum (i.e., formal warning/post moderation).

- PeterTheAleut
Moderator
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PoorFoolNicholas on May 13, 2009, 12:04:45 PM
I doubt you'll get any apologies from this one. Nicholasdamus strikes again!
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 13, 2009, 04:34:04 PM

Have you ever written for JesusisSaviour.com? Why is it that when someone disagrees with you, suddenly this grand conspiracy just happens to unfold? Maybe you could provide something that you don't have to translate for us. You certainly can realize why we don't trust your conclusions. But to accuse someone that disagrees of being, OR possibly being a homosexual, is ridiculous. I posit that once no one cares about your "pet" theories anymore, we will never hear from you again. You certainly fit the mold of conspiritorial cranks that pop up on this forum from time to time. And please stop referring to those of a homosexual persuasion as "a gay". It is offensive, and uncharitable. You lose even more credibility when you use coarse speech such as this.

Nicholas are you kidding me? I have PRESENTED several links, official links in English and some people SYSTEMATICLY rejected for reasosn that are beyond reason and logic.

Then I was right to believe -according to your words- that this forum is some kind of inquisition. You just wrote "translate to US" and "WE don't trust your conclusions". Who is that "US" you are referring to. Some court? Some specific group? Some Cult? Who is that "WE" thst you mention that I have to proof my credibility to. Cause it CERTAINLY not the readers of this forum because several responded in apositive way, especially that guy who LIVES in Helsinki and confirmed the truth of my words. But to "YOU" his testimony is aslo not trust worthy, not the opinion of other readers here, nor the links, not photos, not publications".
Well I am telling "YOU" thhat you have finally managed to make this forum as well as Orthodoxchristianity.net UNRELIABLE and UNTRUSTWORTHY, because "YOU" attack whoever is presenting here some facts.

I do not know who runs this place or is it abandoned to Orthodox Ninjas who attack people in an ORCHASTRATED way if they don't like what people say.

I would also give an advice to any of you people who are not orthodox but zealously pretend to be that please, DON'T become orthodox. Go to another, more totalitarian church that suits better the atmosphere in here  and that knoes all the technics of mind control and manipulation of free though and speach. "YOU" are still beginners but in a church like "Jehova's witnesses" you would do A LOT BETTER, cause you would only have to read the "Watchtower"  and the most important of all: It would be in ENGLISH!

PS. Am I calling homosexuals as "gay" or are they calling themselves as "gay" to make it even sound as a positive thing to be or to become?
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PoorFoolNicholas on May 14, 2009, 09:16:14 AM
Nicholas are you kidding me? I have PRESENTED several links, official links in English and some people SYSTEMATICLY rejected for reasosn that are beyond reason and logic.

Then I was right to believe -according to your words- that this forum is some kind of inquisition. You just wrote "translate to US" and "WE don't trust your conclusions". Who is that "US" you are referring to. Some court? Some specific group? Some Cult? Who is that "WE" thst you mention that I have to proof my credibility to. Cause it CERTAINLY not the readers of this forum because several responded in apositive way, especially that guy who LIVES in Helsinki and confirmed the truth of my words. But to "YOU" his testimony is aslo not trust worthy, not the opinion of other readers here, nor the links, not photos, not publications".
Well I am telling "YOU" thhat you have finally managed to make this forum as well as Orthodoxchristianity.net UNRELIABLE and UNTRUSTWORTHY, because "YOU" attack whoever is presenting here some facts.

I do not know who runs this place or is it abandoned to Orthodox Ninjas who attack people in an ORCHASTRATED way if they don't like what people say.

I would also give an advice to any of you people who are not orthodox but zealously pretend to be that please, DON'T become orthodox. Go to another, more totalitarian church that suits better the atmosphere in here  and that knoes all the technics of mind control and manipulation of free though and speach. "YOU" are still beginners but in a church like "Jehova's witnesses" you would do A LOT BETTER, cause you would only have to read the "Watchtower"  and the most important of all: It would be in ENGLISH!

PS. Am I calling homosexuals as "gay" or are they calling themselves as "gay" to make it even sound as a positive thing to be or to become?
You are right. I am the leader of the OCNET resistance. "Facts" have yet to be presented. Your blog isn't fact, it is opinion. I can start a blog saying that my Metropolitan is an Alien from (136472) Makemake, but that doesn't make it a fact. Blogs are not seen as authoritative. We are primarily English speakers on this site, yet you keep giving us info in another language. That is not our fault. We cannot read the info for ourselves and make a logical, and intelligent decision about the subject you are referring to. I also don't see this Grand Orchestration that you speak of. You tend to get a lot of flack on here because of your methods, not your topic for discussion.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: soufliotiki on May 14, 2009, 09:44:50 AM
Can I be a little uncourteous and ask why other people's sinful laundry are being aired publicaly?

Should we not in an act of Orthodox love hide our fellow brethren's trespasses and pray to God to give them enlightenment? If anything, if it is a serious problem ... one should go direct to their hierarchies with the proper ecclesiastical formalities and if as a response we do not achieve what we hoped in an act of obedience ..... stop there and continue in prayer to God.


What good does publicising others sins do other than to bring shame, gossip and evil into the equation?

Our ends do not justify our means ... I was reading Saint Silouan where Arch. Sophrony mentions that the Saint would say (something along the lines of) if good is not employed to achieve good then the end result is not truly good ...

God Bless.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: CRCulver on May 14, 2009, 11:32:54 AM
soufliotiki, airing these problems publicly can get hierarchs of other Orthodox bodies like the Russian Orthodox Church to voice their dismay, which has often been a powerful tool in suppressing modernist innovations. Individual national churches might go in all sorts of weird directions were they not kept in check by their Orthodox brethren elsewhere.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PoorFoolNicholas on May 14, 2009, 11:38:11 AM
soufliotiki, airing these problems publicly can get hierarchs of other Orthodox bodies like the Russian Orthodox Church to voice their dismay, which has often been a powerful tool in suppressing modernist innovations. Individual national churches might go in all sorts of weird directions were they not kept in check by their Orthodox brethren elsewhere.
When the facts are clearly, and definitively presented for all to see, and understand. Which has NOT happened yet.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: CRCulver on May 14, 2009, 11:42:04 AM
Quote
When the facts are clearly, and definitively presented for all to see, and understand. Which has NOT happened yet.

I'm satisfied that they have already been presented well enough to attract the attention of our neighbours. I'm happy with that. If a few people on a message board don't get the very real problems here, then I'm not going to worry about it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PoorFoolNicholas on May 14, 2009, 11:46:31 AM
Quote
When the facts are clearly, and definitively presented for all to see, and understand. Which has NOT happened yet.

I'm satisfied that they have already been presented well enough to attract the attention of our neighbours. I'm happy with that. If a few people on a message board don't get the very real problems here, then I'm not going to worry about it.
Yes the many Patriarchates are watching OCNET avidly waiting for dirt on other jurisdictions. Come on! ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: CRCulver on May 14, 2009, 02:23:03 PM
Yes the many Patriarchates are watching OCNET avidly waiting for dirt on other jurisdictions. Come on! ::) ::) ::)

Well, the Russian Orthodox Church, for example, is getting its information on the Church of Finland's dangerous behaviour from somewhere. Of course no one with any authority is reading OC.net, but drumming up awareness internationally is always good and eventually word of mouth will bring these complaints to the ears of someone.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 14, 2009, 02:48:18 PM
Well, the Russian Orthodox Church, for example, is getting its information on the Church of Finland's dangerous behaviour from somewhere.

My dear brother,

You are right.  Here is a statement from the priest who heads the Secretariat for Inter-Orthodox Relations of ROCOR.

"When this Finnish aberration was discovered, the Secretariat for
Inter-Orthodox Relations of the ROCOR sent a formal note expressing
deep concern about this issue to the Department of External Relations
of the Moscow Patriarchate.

"A response was received, informing us that the MP had already been
informed of the Finnish situation by the local MP priest there, and
that an appropriate measures would be taken.

"(Of course, the Orthodox Church of Finland is an autonomous
Archbishopric under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate,
so that neither the Moscow Patriarchate nor ROCOR have any authority
over it).

"... Both the ROCOR and the MP have taken note of the situation with
regards to this "Rainbow" Conference in Finland, and are in communication
as to how to condemn it in the strongest possible way.


"With love in Christ,
"Prot. Alexander Lebedeff"
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Aristobolus on May 14, 2009, 04:49:05 PM
Theoprovlitos,

Thank you for your very enlightening, yet disturbing post.  I did a quick search on this issue and found an interesting article from an interesting site:  http://www.rainbowchristians.com/articles/entry/Homosexuality-issue-Complicating-Relationships-Between-the-Orthodox-in-Russia-and-Finland

The only caution I would add is not to jump to the conclusion that if someone has a hard time digesting that an Orthodox church is accepting of the perversion of homosexuality, that they themselves struggle with it.  It may be for example age:  many of those over about sixty have a hard time believing that an O. Church would begin to tolerate sodomy.  But remember that the O. Church in Finland is small, and it is a State church (along with the "Lutheran church" there).  Therefore the O. Church in Finland has the choice:  either accept the tolerant agenda of liberal Scandanavia, or suffer persecution for the sake of Christ.  For whoever loves Christ keeps His commandments.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 14, 2009, 06:17:41 PM
Of course no one with any authority is reading OC.net,
You'd be surprised at who DOES read OC.net. ;)
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Jake on May 15, 2009, 10:56:47 AM

• 21.00-Orthodox vesper, supper, saunas

 :o

Better than the sacristry as happens elsewhere.   ::)

Saunas are a normal part of Finish culture.  They are also a regular part of Russian culture.  Of course each time I went to the sauna (баня in Russian) it was a massive orgy of gay sex, so maybe you have a point.  Of course, you wouldn't want to take into account not imposing American cultural norms on a situation before making a snap judgement.  

Just visit the Finnish Orthodox Monastery of New Valamo and you will find a sauna right by the lake.  It is a part of their culture and nothing evil.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Jake on May 15, 2009, 11:12:30 AM

However I want to make clear that what I am writing here are not dogmatic problems of Orthodoxy, but on the contrary they are problems of the Protestant chrches which since they rejected the church traditions and dogmas they are TOO weak anymore to confront the heretical people who appeared through the ages. This phenomenon in Finland gives us an idea what has been happening again and again when various deluded people thought they "could save the world" and that ALL others were wrong or missing something and all of a sudden it was THEM that the "Holy Sprit" showed them the truth.
I am married to a exprotestant Finn and we have so many friends and relatives there. SO it is not question of talking and living with them on a INDIVIDUAL base. But as  a CHURCH the only thing that can happen is CATASTROPHY.

These statements may provide some insight: the Lutheran Church in Finland recently had a group of its fundamentalists leave and register an alternative Lutheran Church.

Secondly, the Lutherans in Finland still have sour grapes over the fact that that Archbishop Ambrosius of the Finnish Orthodox Church left the Lutheran Church to convert to Orthodoxy.  He is a very personable man, a gifted linguist and and well educated with graduate degrees in both theology and political science.

I met him at the University of Toronto a number of years ago when he was the keynote speaker at a Conferece "Orthodoxy in Finland" organized by the Finnish Studies Department of the University of Toronto.  The conference attracted people interested in Finnish Studies plus a large group of people who were of the Orthodox faith and interested in Orthodoxy.  One of the university professors told me that the Lutherans in Finland were very upset about Archbishop Ambrosius converting to Orthodoxy and the romours had spread that he was homosexual and that the monastery "New Valamo" was filled with homosexuals.  I myself doubt that there is any truth to the rumours about the monastery or Archbishop Ambrosius whom I thought was a very sincere and spiritual man.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Orest on May 15, 2009, 12:51:56 PM

However I want to make clear that what I am writing here are not dogmatic problems of Orthodoxy, but on the contrary they are problems of the Protestant chrches which since they rejected the church traditions and dogmas they are TOO weak anymore to confront the heretical people who appeared through the ages. This phenomenon in Finland gives us an idea what has been happening again and again when various deluded people thought they "could save the world" and that ALL others were wrong or missing something and all of a sudden it was THEM that the "Holy Sprit" showed them the truth.
I am married to a exprotestant Finn and we have so many friends and relatives there. SO it is not question of talking and living with them on a INDIVIDUAL base. But as  a CHURCH the only thing that can happen is CATASTROPHY.

These statements may provide some insight: the Lutheran Church in Finland recently had a group of its fundamentalists leave and register an alternative Lutheran Church.

Secondly, the Lutherans in Finland still have sour grapes over the fact that that Archbishop Ambrosius of the Finnish Orthodox Church left the Lutheran Church to convert to Orthodoxy.  He is a very personable man, a gifted linguist and and well educated with graduate degrees in both theology and political science.

I met him at the University of Toronto a number of years ago when he was the keynote speaker at a Conferece "Orthodoxy in Finland" organized by the Finnish Studies Department of the University of Toronto.  The conference attracted people interested in Finnish Studies plus a large group of people who were of the Orthodox faith and interested in Orthodoxy.  One of the university professors told me that the Lutherans in Finland were very upset about Archbishop Ambrosius converting to Orthodoxy and the romours had spread that he was homosexual and that the monastery "New Valamo" was filled with homosexuals.  I myself doubt that there is any truth to the rumours about the monastery or Archbishop Ambrosius whom I thought was a very sincere and spiritual man.

Thanks, that does explain a lot.
If any of what Theoprovlitosthis claims were true, I really think the Ecumenical Patriarchate would step it.  Afterall the Finnish Orthodox Church is under the EP.  I suspect Theoprovlitosthis may have already contacted the EP and the EP found his claims unsubstantiated.  So he is turning to the internet to discredit the Finns.

From "googling" Father Heikki Huttunen, I see that he has been very active as the representative of the Finnish Orthodox Church since the early 1990's in ecumenical dialogue with various churches.  His works that are on the intenet follow the traditional Orthodox view.  Theoprovlitos seems to object to any ecumenical activity at all.  I think this adds to his distrust of Fr. Heikki Huttunen.  The EP as well as the MP, and other Orthodox churches are are involved in ecumenical dialogue.  WE must follow the command of Christ "That all may be one."  This is an important mission and witness for the Orthodox Church.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 15, 2009, 02:44:46 PM
Can I be a little uncourteous and ask why other people's sinful laundry are being aired publicaly?

Should we not in an act of Orthodox love hide our fellow brethren's trespasses and pray to God to give them enlightenment? If anything, if it is a serious problem ... one should go direct to their hierarchies with the proper ecclesiastical formalities and if as a response we do not achieve what we hoped in an act of obedience ..... stop there and continue in prayer to God.


What good does publicising others sins do other than to bring shame, gossip and evil into the equation?

Our ends do not justify our means ... I was reading Saint Silouan where Arch. Sophrony mentions that the Saint would say (something along the lines of) if good is not employed to achieve good then the end result is not truly good ...

God Bless.

Soufliotiki

What you have suggested has ALL been done since many years ago. First these guys have received many protests and letter from faithful in private. Then the leaders of the Finnish Orthodox CHurch have been asked to interfere and stop this mess for the good of the Church. They didn't do ANYTHING, simply because they more or less agree with that trash. Then the Church of Russia has been informed by many believers and they responded by expressing their concern about what is going on with the Church of Finland. The Church of Greece and of Crete have also been informed as well as the Ecumenical Patriarchate who send an official letter to the Synod of the Church of Finland. Because the Synod of Church of Finland is of course fully guilty they send an official reply to the Ecumenical Patriarchate which wsa full of lies and false explenations.

Of course the EP could not call them lieres and had no other option but accept their letter as true. Since then that was it! The rotten people among the Finnish Church came out openly and aggressively with their activity. In one word: UNCONTROLABLE.

More protests by people were ignored so there was no other way than bringing this to PUBLICITY and presenting their works of darkness so that it becomes a Panorthodox issue and so that the faithfil in Finland will stop being spiritually adn emotionally abused by the heretics.

What you are suggesting is that in case we have a priest in the church who is an offender pretend not to see him abuse children adn cover it up so that we don't make his sin public? Is that that you suggest.

However this is NOT the case. Nobody published if a bishop is homosexual or with whom does he go to bed, or if he leads an immoral life. We are talking about HERESY, alteration of Orthodox dogmas and ethics and keeping out mouth shut would make us as guilty as themselves.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 15, 2009, 03:15:40 PM
Theoprovlitos,

Thank you for your very enlightening, yet disturbing post.  I did a quick search on this issue and found an interesting article from an interesting site:  http://www.rainbowchristians.com/articles/entry/Homosexuality-issue-Complicating-Relationships-Between-the-Orthodox-in-Russia-and-Finland

The only caution I would add is not to jump to the conclusion that if someone has a hard time digesting that an Orthodox church is accepting of the perversion of homosexuality, that they themselves struggle with it.  It may be for example age:  many of those over about sixty have a hard time believing that an O. Church would begin to tolerate sodomy.  But remember that the O. Church in Finland is small, and it is a State church (along with the "Lutheran church" there).  Therefore the O. Church in Finland has the choice:  either accept the tolerant agenda of liberal Scandanavia, or suffer persecution for the sake of Christ.  For whoever loves Christ keeps His commandments.

Dear Aristobolus

Thanks for your support because it seems some people are determined to wither me. However UNFORTUNATELY no matter what you say is true this is not the case with Finland. These people many of them which I happen to know are not ready to suffer any persecution for the sake of Christ. On the contrary, THEY are persecuting those who protest.
Second many of them are openly homosexuals themselves, one of them is married with a man, and their agent is to introduce homosexuality in the church using even "theological" arguments for it which are of course fallacies. And they are so rotten that for example the Theological Secretary of the Archbishop Leo, Jyrki Harkonen, member of the Ecumenist Gay Organization Yhteys and friends of the Orthodox Gay Group "Sateenkaariseura" has pulished in the latter one one terrible text in which he blackmails the Orthodox Church (his OWN Church which from he is getting paid)to accept homosexuality otherwise the state should stop funding the Orthodox Church! As we say in Greek "If you have friends like than then you don't need any enemies".

An in order to understand to understand that these peopel are not only HERETICS but also RUTHLESS, a Finnish Lutheran pastoress, president of Yhteys organization recently performed a lesbian wedding in the Luthern Church WITHOUT PERMISSION from the Lutheran bishop and registered the wedding as legal. And because a) Civil gay weddings are allowed by the Finnish State b) Religious weddings are also officialy and automatically registered, now there is a problem with the bishop to invalidate the lesbian religious wedding which is already valid according to the Finnish state. We are talking about rebellion against her own bishop and contempt towards the Finnish Lutheran faithful who disagree. And this woman-pastoress is supposed to be the representative of God on earth. Good heavens!

And what is the position of the Orthodox to the above. The Orthodox priest of the diocese of Helsinki Heiiki Huttunen and General Secretary of the Finnish Ecumenist Counsil collaborates with her, they are both active members in the group Yhteys and they made up together the programme of the international Gay Christian Forum, with the blessing of the local Orthodox bishop who was/is going to participate as a lecturer in that conference.

I am afraid we really have to deal with the wolf's nest.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 15, 2009, 03:19:17 PM

Just visit the Finnish Orthodox Monastery of New Valamo and you will find a sauna right by the lake.  It is a part of their culture and nothing evil.

Jake is right. There is nothing wrong with sauna. It is their national bath since in the past 6 moths of the year there wasn't running water to wash oneself so I guess the climate was an important factor for the invention of sauna.

However I must admit that a... gay sauna does have a touch of 'spice' in it. I guess they will be admiring eachother's beauty.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Papist on May 15, 2009, 03:26:03 PM

Just visit the Finnish Orthodox Monastery of New Valamo and you will find a sauna right by the lake.  It is a part of their culture and nothing evil.

Jake is right. There is nothing wrong with sauna. It is their national bath since in the past 6 moths of the year there wasn't running water to wash oneself so I guess the climate was an important factor for the invention of sauna.

However I must admit that a... gay sauna does have a touch of 'spice' in it. I guess they will be admiring eachother's beauty.
ewwwwwww. Sounds pretty raunchy.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 15, 2009, 03:54:04 PM

These statements may provide some insight: the Lutheran Church in Finland recently had a group of its fundamentalists leave and register an alternative Lutheran Church.

Secondly, the Lutherans in Finland still have sour grapes over the fact that that Archbishop Ambrosius of the Finnish Orthodox Church left the Lutheran Church to convert to Orthodoxy.  He is a very personable man, a gifted linguist and and well educated with graduate degrees in both theology and political science.

I met him at the University of Toronto a number of years ago when he was the keynote speaker at a Conferece "Orthodoxy in Finland" organized by the Finnish Studies Department of the University of Toronto.  The conference attracted people interested in Finnish Studies plus a large group of people who were of the Orthodox faith and interested in Orthodoxy.  One of the university professors told me that the Lutherans in Finland were very upset about Archbishop Ambrosius converting to Orthodoxy and the romours had spread that he was homosexual and that the monastery "New Valamo" was filled with homosexuals.  I myself doubt that there is any truth to the rumours about the monastery or Archbishop Ambrosius whom I thought was a very sincere and spiritual man.

Jade

No question that Metropolitan Ambnrosius IS talented. Here's one more to his credit: He organized the second more succesful exhbition in the history of the Art Museum of Helsinki, on the treasures of Mt Athos. Thusands of Orthodox and non-orthodox ( I think even the Finnish president) have visited. He has very good taste and he is active. His name is well known in the Finnish society.

However this has NOTHING to do with his being a heretic or a Freemason. Besides most heretics must have been opinion leaders, talented and gifted otherwise they would have made their names known as founders of heresies. It is either out of PRIDE and self-appreciation that they ended up heretical because they had the delusion of "Changing things to the 'better'" or simply the evil one seeing that they are talented managed to gradually switvh their talents AGAINST the church and make them work for him while they were believing they were serving 'God'.

Another person like this is Fr Heikki Huttunen. Yiu just don't become the General Secretary of the Ecumenist Counsel of the Churches of Finland if you are not talented. Knowing him in person nd having cooperated with him BEFORE he took the path to perdition I can tell that he edned up introducing heresies due to his PRIDE to change the church adn the society. And unfortunatelly being a 'spiritual' father he has ruined a lot of people and among them a very good friend of mine.

PRIDE and lack of humbleness is their problem at first palce and the rest follow. That WE are going to show the res tof the world who we are.

About homosexuality his aim was to rach people who suffer from this and tell them that there is a place for them in Heaven too. His intentions are good. However if these intentions do not come along with CORRECT FAITH, ORTHODOX Dogmas and Orthodox pastoral care but they have been defiled by worldly humanistic ideas then instead of doing good to those people you are RUINING THEM becasue the Gospel says you'd rather be warm or cold, but becasue you are lukewarm I will vomit you.

About Valaam, do not confuse someone's sexual tendecies or practices with dogmas and role. Currently Valaam is the ONLY hope of the Church of Finland also thanks to its abbot Fr Sergei. Also the assistant bishop Fr Arseni who comes from Valam so far has not got involved his name with all that trush. Also Fr Isidoros the Estonian has lived for years in MT Athos even alone in the wilderness.

BUT yes, there have been several cases with homosexuals in Valaam. Recently a novice lef the monastery in love with a (was he canadian or Dutch) guest, another monk who left Valaam to found his oun skete and spiritual centre was arrested and convicted as a sexual offender of young men.

You see I keep repeating over nd over that the problem is NOT homosexuality but the HERESY. Someone might be homosexual, somebody else an adulterer, someonew hot tempered, gluttonous, a thief etc. I mean NOBODY is perfect and infalable. But their non-Orthodox worldview and Luthern mindset does not let them make a distinction between a sinful or suffering person with the sin ITSELF. In the protestant worldview either you are good and saved or bad and you perish. Either a saint or a monster. And this is why according to that mentality a homosexual in order to be christian he HAS to be good, and so they justify homosexuality so that homosexuals may have some palce in the kingdom of God.

Metropolitan Ambrosius sincere, yes. Spiritual, forget about it. Or at least he is as spiritual as Arius. No question Arius was spiritual but this didn't preventing him to become the founder of some if the worse heresies in the history of Christianity


MODERATION:  Title added to each mention of Metropolitan Ambrosius's name in order to maintain proper respect for the episcopal office of the Orthodox Church  -PtA
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Νεκτάριος on May 15, 2009, 04:02:34 PM

Just visit the Finnish Orthodox Monastery of New Valamo and you will find a sauna right by the lake.  It is a part of their culture and nothing evil.

Jake is right. There is nothing wrong with sauna. It is their national bath since in the past 6 moths of the year there wasn't running water to wash oneself so I guess the climate was an important factor for the invention of sauna.

However I must admit that a... gay sauna does have a touch of 'spice' in it. I guess they will be admiring eachother's beauty.
ewwwwwww. Sounds pretty raunchy.

I've been in the Banya with quite a few Finns, and let me say that I've never met one whom nature hasn't well endowed.  There is nothing like the feeling of one of them, standing there in their masculine glory - dowsed in sweat, holding a birch branch.  They start lightly thrashing you with the birch branch - it's customary to get the circulation moving.  Ah, the feeling of that birch rubbing all over one's naked body and the sudden release (proper technique is to build up momentum, to loose yourself in rapture and then release all at once with the birch).  The sauna is always so much fun.  BTW, every sauna I've been in also performs abortions and has pews.    
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on May 15, 2009, 04:08:24 PM
BTW, every sauna I've been in also performs abortions and has pews.

Abortions are one thing, but PEWS!?!?!?!
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Jake on May 15, 2009, 04:17:51 PM
Theoprovlitos, you have not provided any evidence at all that Archbishoop Ambrosius is a homosexual, that he is organizing a "Gay" conference in Helsinki or even that he is a Free Mason.

Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 15, 2009, 04:56:51 PM
Theoprovlitos, you have not provided any evidence at all that Archbishoop Ambrosius is a homosexual, that he is organizing a "Gay" conference in Helsinki or even that he is a Free Mason.



Did I say he is gay? And even if I know it I am not going to say it because it becomes personal. About the conference I provided a link where his name clearly appeared on the list as a lecturer and at least two of his priests participate there. I do not know if you are Orthodox, but in the Orthdoox priests need to have some blessing in order to particiapte is such events, especially as orgnizers or lectirers. The programm has been publishes since quite some time now.

About his being a Freemason well there is no way to discover that unless someone breaks in their records or he publically confesses it. Freemasons are not that kind of groups where anybody has access to their records.
However I have been told that he has publicly said that beeing Freemason is not opposed to being Orthdox while the Holy Synod of Greece ( I don't know about Russians) clearly condemend Freemasonry as a cult and many other things. So I wander for what other reason would Metropolitan Ambrosius host a Freemason & Orthdox meeting unless he is really out of reality and believes that all of sudden freemasons will bcome Orthodox in mass and reject freemasonry or even worse, introduce it in the Orthodox Church.

By the way, Metropolitan Ambrosius has also spoken positively for the ordination of women in the Orthdox Church in Helsinki Sanomat, the most popular Finnish newspaper. One more open front against the Orthdox tradition and dogmas.



MODERATION:  Title added to each mention of Metropolitan Ambrosius's name in order to maintain proper respect for the episcopal office of the Orthodox Church.  Theoprovlitos, regardless of what you think personally about any bishop of the Church of Jesus Christ, we at OC.net expect that the episcopal office will still be held in the highest regard.  Therefore, we ask that a bishop's name always be accompanied by his title.  Thank you.  -PtA
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Jake on May 15, 2009, 05:19:00 PM
Theoprovlitos, you have not provided any evidence at all that Archbishoop Ambrosius is a homosexual, that he is organizing a "Gay" conference in Helsinki or even that he is a Free Mason.



Did I say he is gay? And even if I know it I am not going to say it because it becomes personal. About the conference I provided a link where his name clearly appeared on the list as a lecturer and at least two of his priests participate there. I do not know if you are Orthodox, but in the Orthdoox priests need to have some blessing in order to particiapte is such events, especially as orgnizers or lectirers. The programm has been publishes since quite some time now.


You are the person who started this thread and chose the title:
 ( Re: ORTHODOX BISHOP OF FINLAND ORGANIZES ECUMENIST GAY CONFERENCE ).

But you provided no proof at all that Archbishop Ambrosius of Helsinki organized a "gay" conference.

So the title of this thread is misinformation.

The same can be said about the thread regarding Free Masons.  An Orthodox Bishop did not organize their meeting.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 15, 2009, 05:37:14 PM
Jake

It seems that you have to go back and check all the links. A gay heretical event that takes place in his diocese, with him participating as a lecturer and at least two of his most important Orthdox priests as lecturers and members of the organizing committee, yes he is the mastermind behind it.

If the church has organizations in it (e.g. Charity, Aid to third world, Choir etc) and these organizations that function under the umbrella of the Diocese particiapte in forums and conferences it is the Diocese that particaipate if not directly, undireclty for sure.

Unless Anbrosius has lost control of his diocese and his priest and church memebrs do whatever they like and they completely ignore him while he is completly unainble to put some order in his own home. It is one thing or another. There is no third alternative solution.

A bishop cannot participate or send his priests particiapte e.g. in scheduled human sacrifice ceremonies and then claim that these practices have nothing to do with his diocese. This is underestimation of our intelligence.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Alpo on May 15, 2009, 05:39:50 PM
In the protestant worldview either you are good and saved or bad and you perish.
Interesting. I've usually heard this straw man argument being used by Protestans and against Catholics. It's rather refreshing to see it being used against the Protestants and even by an Orthodox. ;D
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 15, 2009, 05:46:51 PM
MODERATION:  Title added to each mention of Metropolitan Ambrosius's name in order to maintain proper respect for the episcopal office of the Orthodox Church.  Theoprovlitos, regardless of what you think personally about any bishop of the Church of Jesus Christ, we at OC.net expect that the episcopal office will still be held in the highest regard.  Therefore, we ask that a bishop's name always be accompanied by his title.  Thank you.  -PtA
[/quote]

The bishop's title has been omitted not out of direspect to his scheme but for brevity's sake and quick typing, in the same way as we say in spoken language Bartholomew or Alexius speaking of the Patriarchs once their identity and title have been mentioned before and they are evident
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 15, 2009, 05:55:23 PM
MODERATION:  Title added to each mention of Metropolitan Ambrosius's name in order to maintain proper respect for the episcopal office of the Orthodox Church.  Theoprovlitos, regardless of what you think personally about any bishop of the Church of Jesus Christ, we at OC.net expect that the episcopal office will still be held in the highest regard.  Therefore, we ask that a bishop's name always be accompanied by his title.  Thank you.  -PtA

The bishop's title has been omitted not out of direspect to his scheme but for brevity's sake and quick typing, in the same way as we say in spoken language Bartholomew or Alexius speaking of the Patriarchs once their identity and title have been mentioned before and they are evident
[/quote]
That doesn't matter.  I have notified you of what forum policy is regarding the respect we are to give our bishops in forum communications.  This is not up for discussion.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 15, 2009, 05:56:34 PM

You have more than twice now alleged that those who question your credibility and your sources are in league to shut you up because they support Freemasonry and the introduction of homosexuality into the Church.  I'm not aware that anyone whom you have accused has ever admitted to any such motive.  So you have 48 hours to either publicly recant your slanderous accusations and apologize to those you have accused or face the consequences of slandering members of this forum (i.e., formal warning/post moderation).

- PeterTheAleut
Moderator[/b][/color]

First of all I would like to know who runs and owns this place. I mean there has to be ONE person legaly and moraly responsible befroe the law for what is going on in here because I see TOO many free-lance moderators and I am not supposed to reply to ANYONE who demads it unless I WANT to. ESPECIALLY when he demands it. Therefore I will answer the rest once my question will be answered.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 15, 2009, 06:06:33 PM

That doesn't matter.  I have notified you of what forum policy is regarding the respect we are to give our bishops in forum communications.  This is not up for discussion.

Respect doesn't come from titles but from the way one behaves to others, especially toawards those one does not necessarily agree with. In any case I am the one being exposed and not the forum, unless the forum agrees with everyone who writes in here or everyone has to agree with the forum. I guess free speach is among the values which the American democracy was build on. Besides, for the sake of free religious rights which are practiced int he United States if I am a Jew or an atheist or a Muslim I am not even obliged to call people of other dogmas with their religious tiltes, since they might not reflect my religious views unless they are being violated.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 15, 2009, 06:09:23 PM

You have more than twice now alleged that those who question your credibility and your sources are in league to shut you up because they support Freemasonry and the introduction of homosexuality into the Church.  I'm not aware that anyone whom you have accused has ever admitted to any such motive.  So you have 48 hours to either publicly recant your slanderous accusations and apologize to those you have accused or face the consequences of slandering members of this forum (i.e., formal warning/post moderation).

- PeterTheAleut
Moderator[/b][/color]

First of all I would like to know who runs and owns this place. I mean there has to be ONE person legaly and moraly responsible befroe the law for what is going on in here because I see TOO many free-lance moderators and I am not supposed to reply to ANYONE who demads it unless I WANT to. ESPECIALLY when he demands it. Therefore I will answer the rest once my question will be answered.
As I mentioned earlier, if you want to question my moderation of this Christian News board, the people you need to talk to are the Global Moderators (and my direct supervisors), cleveland and Veniamin.  Moderators do not act alone on the OC.net forum.  We work together as a somewhat structured team.  You should also avail yourself of some time to familiarize yourself with forum policy, which can be read on the following pages:
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 15, 2009, 06:12:03 PM

That doesn't matter.  I have notified you of what forum policy is regarding the respect we are to give our bishops in forum communications.  This is not up for discussion.

Respect doesn't come from titles but from the way one behaves to others, especially toawards those one does not necessarily agree with. In any case I am the one being exposed and not the forum, unless the forum agrees with everyone who writes in here or everyone has to agree with the forum. I guess free speach is among the values which the American democracy was build on. Besides, for the sake of free religious rights which are practiced int he United States if I am a Jew or an atheist or a Muslim I am not even obliged to call people of other dogmas with their religious tiltes, since they might not reflect my religious views unless they are being violated.
As I said, this is not up for discussion.  If you question my moderatorial instructions on this thread one more time, you will be placed on Post Moderation.  Send cleveland or Veniamin a private message, instead.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 15, 2009, 06:36:42 PM
Then the problem is that one cannot know from the start who are the modertors and how many there are. And if necessarily they all agree with each other -not on the policy of the forum (obviously there has to be some)- but on their PERSONAL views. I don't feel confortable in a forum being a mouse among many cats who wait behind every corner.
And I guess that when one expresses an opinion obviously not ALL moderators are going to agree. Am I, or are we subject of each moderator's personal views?

My protest is -and has been form the start- that I have been in an orchstrated way accused for a fraud no matter many evidences, links as well as testimonies of other people that "there is something rotten in the Kingdom of Finland".

I wrote here in order to present some NEWS and FACTS no matter not pleasant for none of us, including myself. I am not here to argue with anyone ( I have MUCH moe important things to do) and I realy don't see a reason why I am being attacked unless I am lead to the rational conclusion that I am being scorned not becasue what I am saying is not true but because it IS.

I understand that OCnet has to maintain a good name or protect itself from risks but diplomacy and political correctness is not always a virtue theologically speaking. Especially if the aim of this site is the protection and promotion of Orthodoxy and not an aim in itself.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 15, 2009, 06:42:29 PM
I am trying to find a link to Veniamin or cleveland
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 15, 2009, 06:51:33 PM
I don't know, am I supposed to answer this? Why Orestis isn't appologizing for accusing me for misleading people in this forum in other words that I am a fraud? And once this is cleared that I am, then I may appoligize both for my "lies" as well as my "accusations". For I was the one to be offended FIRST.

Orestis

Peopel who do not WANT to believe they selectively see what they WANT to see. You do not even speak Finnish adn you know nothing about the issue but yuo are easily claime that all the data which I present are "misleading".

Then in this case you belong to the same team who wants to make people SHUT UP  becuase they protest for teh grdual indrodcution of homosecyality in the church.

I left even more links above and waiting for answers. Though I suspect that I am rather going to get excuses and evasions
(http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/Themes/default/images/warnwarn.gif) Theoprovlitos,
More than 48 hours ago, you were given 48 hours to recant your accusations that those who have here questioned your sources are acting on a secret agenda to introduce Freemasonry and homosexuality into the Church and to apologize to those you accused.  You have not done so yet; in fact, you have done the exact opposite by continuing to make these accusations.  Therefore, you are receiving this formal warning for slanderous ad hominems against members of this forum.  If you continue to make such accusations, you will be placed on post moderation, which means that your posts will need to be approved by a moderator before they appear on the forum.  If you feel this warning is in error, feel free to use the private messaging system to appeal my decision to either cleveland or Veniamin.
- PeterTheAleut
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on May 15, 2009, 06:56:12 PM
OC.net hates true Orthodoxy!
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 15, 2009, 07:05:51 PM
OC.net hates true Orthodoxy!

I don't know anymore what to think. This is so sad...
Are you under Bishop Longin? May I ask what is/was your religious background?
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 15, 2009, 07:16:26 PM
http://www.vantaa.fi/en/i_perusdokumentti.asp?path=1;135;137;2620;218;58993;1858;29614;75210;75231 (http://www.vantaa.fi/en/i_perusdokumentti.asp?path=1;135;137;2620;218;58993;1858;29614;75210;75231)

The church's attitude towards homosexuality has become more tolerant.
 
The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland

In a “Shepherd letter” written in 1966 under the title Ajankohtainen asia (A Topical Issue), the bishops of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland spoke of homosexuality as a sin. In 1975, the Church Research Institute published a study that defended the right of homosexuals to hold positions within the Church. The study met with a lot of criticism within the Church, including in the General Synod. In the 1980s, the bishops no longer called homosexuality a sin, although they did imply that the Church might not allow active homosexuals among it employees. In 1993, archbishop John Vikström was accused of heresy because of his positive views regarding gay and lesbian people. His case was later reviewed by the diocesan chapter of Turku.

 The dismissal on grounds of homosexuality of the Vanhakirkko parish youth worker Seppo Kivistö in 1974 started the public debate on the attitude of the church towards homosexuality. Demonstration in Vanhakirkko church park. Veli Hyvärinen. Private collection.

In recent years, there has also been pro-homosexual activity within the Church. The Kallio parish (Kallion seurakunta) in Helsinki has since year 1999 officially embraced rainbow people in its spiritual work. The first Rainbow Vesper service was held in 1999 at Helsinki Cathedral Chapel. In the 21st century, Rainbow Masses have been held in connection with Gay Pride events in Vaasa, Helsinki and Tampere. An ecumenical group called Yhteys (Alliance) is working to promote more liberal attitudes towards sexual and gender minorities within the Church. This is also one of the goals of Tulkaa kaikki (Everybody Come), a group that campaigned actively in the 2006 parish elections.


The Finnish Orthodox Church

In its official statements, the Finnish Orthodox Church has a negative stand on homosexuality. In a comment on registered partnerships in 1992, the Episcopal Conference stated that “the Christian understanding of a family must not be undermined or blurred by extending the concept of family to include constructions that are alien to the Christian ones”. In the late 1990s, the Episcopal Conference concluded that “the goal of ridding the society of injustice is a just one”. In their opinion, however, these attempts to improve the status of gay and lesbian couples should not lead to a situation where their partnerships are equated with “traditional families”.

Overall, the topic of homosexuality has not stirred the same kind of heated debate within the Orthodox Church as it has within the Evangelical Lutheran Church. Some Orthodox clergy have blessed the homes of gay and lesbian couples, and some have even agreed to the blessing of same-sex unions. On the other hand, there have also been isolated cases of parishioners being denied communion because of their same-sex partnerships.

 
Christian movements

The first Christian group for gay and lesbian people came into being in the context of Seta in the mid 1970s. This was later followed by another Christian group of Seta, Malkus, which has remained active ever since it was founded in Helsinki in 1981. In the course of the years, there have also been Christian groups in Tampere and Turku. In addition, there is a group called Arcus for church employees and active members of the parish who belong to a sexual minority.

Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Orest on May 15, 2009, 07:17:29 PM
I see from the archives that this topic has been discussed last year in 2008 with Theoprovlitos starting the thread with unfounded accusations.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18525.0.html

From last year's post, I think this article mentioned by someone from Finland is important.  The writer states that the head of the Finnish Orthodox Church, Metropolitan Leo maintains the traditional orthodox stance:
Quote
http://www.hs.fi/tulosta/1135241059236
Archbishop Leo Denies Gay Priests can Live together.
Arkkipiispa Leo: "Ortodoksipappi ei voi elää rekisteröidyssä parisuhteessa"

That interview practically says that an orthodox priest cannot live in a homosexual relationship. Furthermore, His Grace ( is this the correct title? ) has said earlier that the homosexual relationships are not part of the Orthodox Tradition. It seems that the heretical gay mafia has had quite a little success in it's manipulation.  
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18525.0.html
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 15, 2009, 08:13:50 PM
I see from the archives that this topic has been discussed last year in 2008 with Theoprovlitos starting the thread with unfounded accusations.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18525.0.html

From last year's post, I think this article mentioned by someone from Finland is important.  The writer states that the head of the Finnish Orthodox Church, Metropolitan Leo maintains the traditional orthodox stance:
Quote
http://www.hs.fi/tulosta/1135241059236
Archbishop Leo Denies Gay Priests can Live together.
Arkkipiispa Leo: "Ortodoksipappi ei voi elää rekisteröidyssä parisuhteessa"

That interview practically says that an orthodox priest cannot live in a homosexual relationship. Furthermore, His Grace ( is this the correct title? ) has said earlier that the homosexual relationships are not part of the Orthodox Tradition. It seems that the heretical gay mafia has had quite a little success in it's manipulation.  
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18525.0.html

I am affraid that the text of your link does not contain the FULL text of the Archbishops statement which after publicity and complaints has been "shortened" the original text goes liek this

The registration of parishioners as same-sex couples does not constitute a problem, according to Archbishop Leo.
[Note: In Finland, in order to officially belong to any church whatsoever, you need to register.]

"To anyone who wishes to participate in parishional and liturgical life, no questions are asked about their family status.

According to Leo, socio-ethical issues are to a large degree a matter of culture.

"Especially in Eastern Europe, the Church leaderships are obliged to maintain a balance, on account of the demands of noisy extremist fundamentalist organizations. Among these circles, liberalism is not fashionable.”

(this is obviously an insult towards other churches and nations since among those noisy, extremist, fundamentalists happen to be the Heads of several Orthodox Churches, to begin with the Patriarch of Mosow)

According to Leo, the Orthodox Church is very careful when handling matters pertaining to homosexuality."

Those who are registered as a couple with a person of the same sex cannot be accepted in the ranks of priesthood. But for associates and workers from the laity, we do not place the same criteria."

Which practically means acceptance and moral justification of homosexual marriages and full participation gay marreid couples in Church liturgical life without any problem and even as workers of the Church. In other words a woman may work in the morning as the bishop's secretary and at night as a whore without a problem!


And yet 6 months later here is the program of the Ecumenist Gay Conference Organized by the Ecumensit Gay group Yhteys with the particiaption of several priests and the Bishop of Helsinki Ambrosius

"Can male priest love and live with a man? Discussion with an introduction by an orthodox priest working in southern Finland." I bet their answer is YES. And do I know that priest!

And here some more from the very same conference where the Orthodox FULLY particiapate with the blessings of the local Bishop who was/is going to particiapte in the conference.

Transition in a church context: theology, community and roles of sex and gender in Christian life. Non-trans people welcome too!
Eeva Järvinen is a Lutheran pastor, a trans feminist theologian who delights in God and in the world He has created. Her particular favourite theological subjects are God's limitless love for people, His infinite patience with humans (which she does not share, unfortunately), sanctification of God's children and our role as God's warm hands here in the world. She earns her living as an IT and communications specialist, as her bishop is not too keen on trans women and even less on lesbian priests who marry other lesbians. Computers and other people don't seem to mind, and she's hoping the bishops will come to their senses finally, too.

What worries me is this

Future Strategy

As you can see A LOT can happen within 6 months since last November, and obviously to the worse.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on May 15, 2009, 08:51:50 PM
I don't know anymore what to think. This is so sad...
Are you under Bishop Longin? May I ask what is/was your religious background?

I was being sarcastic.  OC.net loves true Orthodoxy! 

I am under His Grace +LONGIN.  He is very traditional.  He insists on the baptism of all converts, no mere chrism.  This has been very hard for me to accept as I was baptized as an infant into the Roman Catholic Church, then again as a teenager into the Southern Baptist Church, so this will be my 'third' baptism, whenever it actually happens.  This is very hard to stomach, as it seems to violate the Creed: "I believe in ONE baptism for the remission of sins."  Anyway, it has been a good lesson in obedience and humility for me; getting me out of the Protestant paradigm of my decision and more attuned to the reality of the authority of the bishop as a representative of Christ.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Orest on May 15, 2009, 08:58:35 PM
I see from the archives that this topic has been discussed last year in 2008 with Theoprovlitos starting the thread with unfounded accusations.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18525.0.html

From last year's post, I think this article mentioned by someone from Finland is important.  The writer states that the head of the Finnish Orthodox Church, Metropolitan Leo maintains the traditional orthodox stance:
Quote
http://www.hs.fi/tulosta/1135241059236
Archbishop Leo Denies Gay Priests can Live together.
Arkkipiispa Leo: "Ortodoksipappi ei voi elää rekisteröidyssä parisuhteessa"

That interview practically says that an orthodox priest cannot live in a homosexual relationship. Furthermore, His Grace ( is this the correct title? ) has said earlier that the homosexual relationships are not part of the Orthodox Tradition. It seems that the heretical gay mafia has had quite a little success in it's manipulation.  
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18525.0.html

I am affraid that the text of your link does not contain the FULL text of the Archbishops statement which after publicity and complaints has been "shortened" the original text goes liek this


You are not being fair.  I was quoting this article here:
http://www.hs.fi/tulosta/1135241059236
Metropolitan Leo states says that an Orthodox priest cannot live in a homosexual relationship and that the homosexual relationships are not part of the Orthodox Tradition.

This is a direct quote from the Metropolitan that affirms Orthodox teaching on homosexuality.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 16, 2009, 01:33:35 AM
I see from the archives that this topic has been discussed last year in 2008 with Theoprovlitos starting the thread with unfounded accusations.
For purpose of fairness, seeing that you essentially accused Theoprovlitos of opening a second account in violation of forum policy--I trust wholeheartedly that you didn't mean to ;)--that thread appears to have been started by someone totally unrelated to Theoprovlitos who merely cited Theoprovlitos's blog in the OP.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 16, 2009, 01:38:52 AM
I see from the archives that this topic has been discussed last year in 2008 with Theoprovlitos starting the thread with unfounded accusations.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18525.0.html

From last year's post, I think this article mentioned by someone from Finland is important.  The writer states that the head of the Finnish Orthodox Church, Metropolitan Leo maintains the traditional orthodox stance:
Quote
http://www.hs.fi/tulosta/1135241059236
Archbishop Leo Denies Gay Priests can Live together.
Arkkipiispa Leo: "Ortodoksipappi ei voi elää rekisteröidyssä parisuhteessa"

That interview practically says that an orthodox priest cannot live in a homosexual relationship. Furthermore, His Grace ( is this the correct title? ) has said earlier that the homosexual relationships are not part of the Orthodox Tradition. It seems that the heretical gay mafia has had quite a little success in it's manipulation.  
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18525.0.html

I am affraid that the text of your link does not contain the FULL text of the Archbishops statement which after publicity and complaints has been "shortened" the original text goes liek this

The registration of parishioners as same-sex couples does not constitute a problem, according to Archbishop Leo.
[Note: In Finland, in order to officially belong to any church whatsoever, you need to register.]

"To anyone who wishes to participate in parishional and liturgical life, no questions are asked about their family status.

According to Leo, socio-ethical issues are to a large degree a matter of culture.

"Especially in Eastern Europe, the Church leaderships are obliged to maintain a balance, on account of the demands of noisy extremist fundamentalist organizations. Among these circles, liberalism is not fashionable.”

(this is obviously an insult towards other churches and nations since among those noisy, extremist, fundamentalists happen to be the Heads of several Orthodox Churches, to begin with the Patriarch of Mosow)

According to Leo, the Orthodox Church is very careful when handling matters pertaining to homosexuality."

Those who are registered as a couple with a person of the same sex cannot be accepted in the ranks of priesthood. But for associates and workers from the laity, we do not place the same criteria."

Which practically means acceptance and moral justification of homosexual marriages and full participation gay marreid couples in Church liturgical life without any problem and even as workers of the Church. In other words a woman may work in the morning as the bishop's secretary and at night as a whore without a problem!


And yet 6 months later here is the program of the Ecumenist Gay Conference Organized by the Ecumensit Gay group Yhteys with the particiaption of several priests and the Bishop of Helsinki Ambrosius

"Can male priest love and live with a man? Discussion with an introduction by an orthodox priest working in southern Finland." I bet their answer is YES. And do I know that priest!

And here some more from the very same conference where the Orthodox FULLY particiapate with the blessings of the local Bishop who was/is going to particiapte in the conference.

Transition in a church context: theology, community and roles of sex and gender in Christian life. Non-trans people welcome too!
Eeva Järvinen is a Lutheran pastor, a trans feminist theologian who delights in God and in the world He has created. Her particular favourite theological subjects are God's limitless love for people, His infinite patience with humans (which she does not share, unfortunately), sanctification of God's children and our role as God's warm hands here in the world. She earns her living as an IT and communications specialist, as her bishop is not too keen on trans women and even less on lesbian priests who marry other lesbians. Computers and other people don't seem to mind, and she's hoping the bishops will come to their senses finally, too.

What worries me is this

Future Strategy

As you can see A LOT can happen within 6 months since last November, and obviously to the worse.
Can you give us a link to the online copy of this statement?
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Alpo on May 16, 2009, 07:09:18 AM
He insists on the baptism of all converts, no mere chrism.  This has been very hard for me to accept as I was baptized as an infant into the Roman Catholic Church, then again as a teenager into the Southern Baptist Church, so this will be my 'third' baptism, whenever it actually happens.  This is very hard to stomach, as it seems to violate the Creed: "I believe in ONE baptism for the remission of sins."  Anyway, it has been a good lesson in obedience and humility for me; getting me out of the Protestant paradigm of my decision and more attuned to the reality of the authority of the bishop as a representative of Christ.
Now this is interesting. I've had a same kind of lesson about obedience but because of totally opposite reason: I'd like to be baptised! But it's customary not to baptise converts in Finland if they are already baptised in some other Christian denomination and I was baptised as an nfant into the Lutheran Church.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 16, 2009, 09:58:46 AM
He insists on the baptism of all converts, no mere chrism.  This has been very hard for me to accept as I was baptized as an infant into the Roman Catholic Church, then again as a teenager into the Southern Baptist Church, so this will be my 'third' baptism, whenever it actually happens.  This is very hard to stomach, as it seems to violate the Creed: "I believe in ONE baptism for the remission of sins."  Anyway, it has been a good lesson in obedience and humility for me; getting me out of the Protestant paradigm of my decision and more attuned to the reality of the authority of the bishop as a representative of Christ.
Now this is interesting. I've had a same kind of lesson about obedience but because of totally opposite reason: I'd like to be baptised! But it's customary not to baptise converts in Finland if they are already baptised in some other Christian denomination and I was baptised as an nfant into the Lutheran Church.

Three baptisms It is strange indeed. My wife was about to be chrismated only, but the Greek bishop suggested that she would be baptized which she finaly did especially when we remembered that her ex godmother belonged to a cult croup and she wan't a practicing chirstian anymore.

I know that in Finland converts are not allowed to be baptised and this is why many go to other countries or Mt Athos. The truth is however that the creed used at the first baptims also includes the fallacy of Filioque and it gives a good reason to be baptized again, though I am not claiming that those who were not baptised again are not Orthodox.

I would suggest Alpo if he really wants to have that experience to visit a Monastery in Mt Athos, Greece or any other country to do so.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Orest on May 16, 2009, 10:31:18 AM
I see from the archives that this topic has been discussed last year in 2008 with Theoprovlitos starting the thread with unfounded accusations.
For purpose of fairness, seeing that you essentially accused Theoprovlitos of opening a second account in violation of forum policy--I trust wholeheartedly that you didn't mean to ;)--that thread appears to have been started by someone totally unrelated to Theoprovlitos who merely cited Theoprovlitos's blog in the OP.

You are quite right.  I made a mistake in thinking that Theoprovlitos started the thread.
I am sorry for my error.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Orest on May 16, 2009, 10:41:38 AM
soufliotiki, airing these problems publicly can get hierarchs of other Orthodox bodies like the Russian Orthodox Church to voice their dismay, which has often been a powerful tool in suppressing modernist innovations. Individual national churches might go in all sorts of weird directions were they not kept in check by their Orthodox brethren elsewhere.
I think it has been suggested that all this bad publicity for the Finnish Orthodox Church may be a cover for the Moscow Patriarchate to take over or move into Finland with its own churches.  The Finnish Orthodox Church is currently under Constantinople.
This article was in today's Helsinki newspaper:

Moscow-affiliated Russian Orthodox church grows in Helsinki


Two Orthodox Christian congregations in Helsinki affiliated with the Russian ecclesiastical tradition have grown in the Helsinki region in recent years.

      The congregations of St. Nicholas and Pokrova, which fall under the Moscow Patriarchate, have about 2,000 members. The membership has been growing at a rate of about 150 a year.

      About 75 per cent of the members registered in the congregations are citizens of Finland.

      The Finnish Orthodox Church disengaged from the Russian Orthodox Church in 1923. However, some of the Orthodox in Finland wanted to retain Russian ways, and the use of Church Slavonic in the liturgy, and they set up their own congregation.

     When the Finish Orthodox Church decided in 1927 to reject the old Julian calendar, the Russian Orthodox in Finland set up their own congregation - that of St. Nicholas.

      After the Second World War Stalin began to use the Russian Orthodox Church as a way of advancing his foreign policy goals. There were calls from Moscow for the Finnish Orthodox Church to join the Moscow Patriarchate.

      Support for the idea from the Finnish far left made many church members wary of the proposal, and it was rejected. In 1957 the Holy Synod of Moscow recognised the status of the Finnish Orthodox Church.
     
Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, immigration from Russia to Finland has increased, swelling the membership of the Moscow-affiliated congregations in Finland.

      The congregations remain small compared with the whole Finnish Orthodox Church, which shares a special status in Finnish society with the Evangelical-Lutheran Church. The Helsinki Orthodox Congregation has about 19,000 members.
     
The St. Nicholas Congregation wants to build a new Orthodox Church in Itäkeskus, in the east of Helsinki next to the Stoa culture centre. However, it has not yet been granted a building permit.
      "I believe that our congregation will continue to grow. When the church in Itäkeskus is ready, we can increase youth activities and church services", says Orest Chervinski, dean of the Congregation of St. Nicholas.

      The congregation is celebrating its 80th anniversary on Friday, with Metropolitan Cyril of the foreign section of the Moscow Patriarchate taking part in a service held on Friday morning at the Church of St. Nicholas at Helsinki's Hietaniemi Cemetery.

      Taking part in the event were Metropolitan Ambrosius and Archbishop Leo of the Helsinki Orthodox diocese.
     
In spite of the cooperation between the two branches of Orthodoxy in Finland, the growth of the congregations under the Moscow Patriarchate is a cause for some concern within the Finnish Orthodox Church.

      "It is common practice that one local church will deal with all tasks of the Orthodox Church", Metropolitan Ambrosius says.
      Congregations linked with the Moscow Patriarchate live according to the old Julian calendar, and they celebrate Christmas and Easter at different times than in other Finnish Orthodox congregations.

      Ambrosius says that people often join the congregations which observe Russian traditions specifically for cultural reasons.
      "There is a small group of nationalists who want their spiritual services directly from priests under the Moscow Patriarchate", he explains.

      Orthodox immigrants are very welcome in the Finnish Orthodox Church, Ambrosius says.
      "We have actively sought to reach out to Russian immigrants. All those who have come to our congregation have been accepted."


Previously in HS International Edition:
   Russian-style Orthodox church to be built in East of Helsinki (15.12.2006)
   Orthodox Church of Russia to expand its activities in Finland (22.8.2005)
16/5/2009
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Moscow-affiliated+Russian+Orthodox+church+grows+in+Helsinki/1135230488329
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 16, 2009, 11:50:16 AM
(Mods, if this is out of place in this particular thread could you please move it.  I cannot make up my mind if it is sufficiently ontopic for this thread or not?)

This is from today's Helsinki Newspaper.  It states that Archbishop Leo and Metropolitan Ambrosius of the Finnish orthodox Church will be con-celebrating with a representative from the MP.


"Moscow-affiliated Russian Orthodox Church Grows in Helsinki"

Two Orthodox Christian congregations in Helsinki affiliated with the Russian ecclesiastical tradition have grown in the Helsinki region in recent years.

The congregations of St. Nicholas and Pokrova, which fall under the Moscow Patriarchate, have about 2,000 members. The membership has been growing at a rate of about 150 a year.

About 75 per cent of the members registered in the congregations are citizens of Finland.

The Finnish Orthodox Church disengaged from the Russian Orthodox Church in 1923. However, some of the Orthodox in Finland wanted to retain Russian ways, and the use of Church Slavonic in the liturgy, and they set up their own congregation.

When the Finish Orthodox Church decided in 1927 to reject the old Julian calendar, the Russian Orthodox in Finland set up their own congregation - that of St. Nicholas.

After the Second World War Stalin began to use the Russian Orthodox Church as a way of advancing his foreign policy goals. There were calls from Moscow for the Finnish Orthodox Church to join the Moscow Patriarchate.

Support for the idea from the Finnish far left made many church members wary of the proposal, and it was rejected. In 1957 the Holy Synod of Moscow recognised the status of the Finnish Orthodox Church.
     
Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, immigration from Russia to Finland has increased, swelling the membership of the Moscow-affiliated congregations in Finland.

The congregations remain small compared with the whole Finnish Orthodox Church, which shares a special status in Finnish society with the Evangelical-Lutheran Church. The Helsinki Orthodox Congregation has about 19,000 members.
     
The St. Nicholas Congregation wants to build a new Orthodox Church in Itäkeskus, in the east of Helsinki next to the Stoa culture centre. However, it has not yet been granted a building permit.

"I believe that our congregation will continue to grow. When the church in Itäkeskus is ready, we can increase youth activities and church services", says Orest Chervinski, dean of the Congregation of St. Nicholas.

The congregation is celebrating its 80th anniversary on Friday, with Metropolitan Cyril of the foreign section of the Moscow Patriarchate taking part in a service held on Friday morning at the Church of St. Nicholas at Helsinki's Hietaniemi Cemetery.

Taking part in the event were Metropolitan Ambrosius and Archbishop Leo of the Helsinki Orthodox diocese.
     
In spite of the cooperation between the two branches of Orthodoxy in Finland, the growth of the congregations under the Moscow Patriarchate is a cause for some concern within the Finnish Orthodox Church.

"It is common practice that one local church will deal with all tasks of the Orthodox Church", Metropolitan Ambrosius says.

Congregations linked with the Moscow Patriarchate live according to the old Julian calendar, and they celebrate Christmas and Easter at different times than in other Finnish Orthodox congregations.

Ambrosius says that people often join the congregations which observe Russian traditions specifically for cultural reasons.

"There is a small group of nationalists who want their spiritual services directly from priests under the Moscow Patriarchate", he explains.

Orthodox immigrants are very welcome in the Finnish Orthodox Church, Ambrosius says.

"We have actively sought to reach out to Russian immigrants. All those who have come to our congregation have been accepted."


Previously in HS International Edition:
Russian-style Orthodox church to be built in East of Helsinki (15.12.2006)
Orthodox Church of Russia to expand its activities in Finland (22.8.2005)
16/5/2009
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Moscow-affiliated+Russian+Orthodox+church+grows+in+Helsinki/1135230488329
 

Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: mike on May 16, 2009, 12:29:14 PM
If the homosexual couple vowed to live in perfect celibacy I do not see any problems against giving them a blessing.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: AMM on May 16, 2009, 12:30:40 PM
Quote
Individual national churches might go in all sorts of weird directions were they not kept in check by their Orthodox brethren elsewhere.

Try telling that to people in North America.  What the Russians are doing in Finland also has parallels to here.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Aristobolus on May 16, 2009, 03:30:05 PM
Theoprovlitos,

Do not let anyone change your language on this issue; it by its very nature is wrong.  Homosexuality is a  result of the fall of Adam; it is something that is to be resisted, and refrained from.  The difference between it and heterosexuality is that the former is wrong in and of itself; whereas, the latter in and of itself is natural.  Thus "the marriage bed is honorable, and is blessed by God".  But, those who struggle with aberrant passions such as this are to be accepted, loved and cared for spiritually. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 16, 2009, 05:38:18 PM
He insists on the baptism of all converts, no mere chrism.  This has been very hard for me to accept as I was baptized as an infant into the Roman Catholic Church, then again as a teenager into the Southern Baptist Church, so this will be my 'third' baptism, whenever it actually happens.  This is very hard to stomach, as it seems to violate the Creed: "I believe in ONE baptism for the remission of sins."  Anyway, it has been a good lesson in obedience and humility for me; getting me out of the Protestant paradigm of my decision and more attuned to the reality of the authority of the bishop as a representative of Christ.
Three baptisms?  Technically, according to the Tradition of the Orthodox Church, there is only one baptism: that of the Orthodox Church.  Outside the Church, there is no baptism, so the previous two heterodox baptisms are not seen as baptisms at all.

However, I digress only to offer a corrective.  If anyone would like to discuss this point further, I can split off this post and merge it into one of the many earlier discussions we've had about the subject of "re"-baptism of converts.  Just let me know what you want to do. ;)
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 18, 2009, 03:25:52 AM
This article was in today's Helsinki newspaper:

Moscow-affiliated Russian Orthodox church grows in Helsinki

     
In spite of the cooperation between the two branches of Orthodoxy in Finland, the growth of the congregations under the Moscow Patriarchate is a cause for some concern within the Finnish Orthodox Church.

      "It is common practice that one local church will deal with all tasks of the Orthodox Church", Metropolitan Ambrosius says.
      Congregations linked with the Moscow Patriarchate live according to the old Julian calendar, and they celebrate Christmas and Easter at different times than in other Finnish Orthodox congregations.

      Ambrosius says that people often join the congregations which observe Russian traditions specifically for cultural reasons.
      "There is a small group of nationalists who want their spiritual services directly from priests under the Moscow Patriarchate", he explains.

    Previously in HS International Edition:
   Russian-style Orthodox church to be built in East of Helsinki (15.12.2006)
   Orthodox Church of Russia to expand its activities in Finland (22.8.2005)
16/5/2009
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Moscow-affiliated+Russian+Orthodox+church+grows+in+Helsinki/1135230488329



Thank you Orest

This is exactly the problem but still the truth is revealed between the line as well as twisted.

For example Metropolitan Ambrosius says "they celebrate Easter at different times than in other Finnish Orthodox congregations" while the truth should be that "The Finnish Orthodox CHurch celebrates Easter at different times with ALL other Orthodox Churches in the world"  and this of course IS a problem becasue it braks church order and canons plus it makes Finns be in communion with the Protestants (who hardly celebrate Easter) rather with their Orthodox brethren all over the world. No wander they even have a priest rejecting the Holy Light even on Good Saturday 2008 just after the service claiming that "the Bible doesn't say anything about any "Holy Light"".

Then no wander "the growth of the congregations under the Moscow Patriarchate is a cause for some concern within the Finnish Orthodox Church". All the Finns who have spiritual connections with Mt Athos, Greece, Russia etc are suggested to attend services to the Russian Church and many who haven't still done so are waiting for the right moment practicing patience. If things go on like this the result will be soon that all Orthodox Immigrants or Orthodox of ethnic backgound will move to the Russian CHurch and those who will remain in the Finnish CHurch will be some rotten theologians, people with low morals, converts who THINK they know what Orthodoxy is and gays, Lesbians etc. This is NOT an Orthodox CHurch any more but a protestant one with different cultural elements. Their theology and dogmas however are from top to toes protestant. Cathechism is NOT enough to converts from other Christian dogmas with the exception of Roman Catholics with whom differences are only dogmatic. It is easier to a muslim to adopt the Orthodox way of thinking (once he accepted Christ) than to a protestant, as it is difficult to a non-native english speaker to speak english fluently unless he lives the rest of his life in an english-speaking country.

And in Finland the cse is that they are trying to speak Greek or Russian (I am using a metaphor) while they are residing in Finland where everyoine else is FInnish. And now they even have the pride to believe that they are going to teach US in Greece Greek or Russian becasue we don't know it well!

The biggest problem with Finns and converts in general is that they cannot see the UNVISIBLE side of Orthodoxy. For example the Roman catholics have a sweet love to the Mother of God, Virgin Mary. They have Padre Pio. They believe in miracles. There is a spiritual link a constant vibration of the heart with Christ and His saints that cannot be tought by books. This is why they have approcahed Orthodoxy INTELLECTUALLY and CULTURALLY while their hearts remain dry and unable to catch delicate issues. In their mind Orthodoxy, protestantism and humanistic atheism are one mass and one mess.

You can see it here in Metropolitan AMbrosius's words: "There is a small group of nationalists who want their spiritual services directly from priests under the Moscow Patriarchate". He CANNOT even see (or he pretends he doesn't see that there are hundreds of other serious reasons than the one's descrived here). "Ambrosius says that people often join the congregations which observe Russian traditions specifically for cultural reasons". It is obvious that the Metropolitan speaks according to HIS perception of Orthodoxy: "observe RUSSIAN traditions specifically for CULTURAL reasons". So all this we are talking about is a RUSSIAN (or Greek) thing and it has to do with CULTURE and not dogmas, ethics and holy tradition. And once Orthodoxy has been described as an ethinc and cultural thing then this gives them the right to CREATE a Frankenstein monster faith with organs from the corpes of various dead ideas and create what they call "Finnish orthodoxy" which is anyhting else but Orthodoxy and it is different than the Orthodoxy people in all other Orthodox countries share for centuries despite their ethnic and linguistic backgrounds.



Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 18, 2009, 03:39:25 AM
If the homosexual couple vowed to live in perfect celibacy I do not see any problems against giving them a blessing.

Mike

Quite close but not yet. I am gald that you got this slight but IMPORTANT difference between homosexual couples who live together in celibacy and those who "get married" even in civil weddings.

In the fisrt case their sex life is just a fall while in the second one is the justification of a sin both morally and ecclesiaticaly. The homosexual person who gets married despite the teaching of the church in reality he is practically REJECTING the church in favor of his sex life. It is as for example an Orthodox Christian living in a Muslim country were bigamy is allowed, have a mistress committing adultery with her, but becasue the state allows bigamy he would go and get married with his mistress and become bigamus according to a civil marriage and have the perception that he is an Orthodox Christian while in reality he is nothing more than an ADULTERER.

So you can't be married with a person of the same sex and claim that you are a faithful christian.

Things are easier with unmarried homosexuals who have most probably no other choice than to live in sin. It must be made clear to them that they cannot equaly particiapte to the sacraments since they are practicing fornication. It is the same with non married heterosexual couples who live together. And if a priest shouldn't bless a couple living in an open marriage or a couple of adulterers, why should homosexuals be an exception?
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 18, 2009, 03:45:27 AM
Three baptisms?  Technically, according to the Tradition of the Orthodox Church, there is only one baptism: that of the Orthodox Church.  Outside the Church, there is no baptism, so the previous two heterodox baptisms are not seen as baptisms at all.

However, I digress only to offer a corrective.  If anyone would like to discuss this point further, I can split off this post and merge it into one of the many earlier discussions we've had about the subject of "re"-baptism of converts.  Just let me know what you want to do. ;)

That would be an interesting issue though there will not be a clear answer but it will only reproduce the already existing confusion not only among different jurisdictions but even among priests of the very same church in the same country.

To get an idea, it is not clear to many priests if a child at risk that was baptized by aerobaptism should go through a full batism later if it survives the danger or it should only be chrismated
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: cristiano on May 18, 2009, 04:16:14 AM
Hello.I'm cristiano from spain.
___________
Links to advertising sites placed in signature were deleted.


Cristiano--

OC.net does not permit insertion of links to advertise commercial enterprises. Please review the
Compiled Board Policies (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13455.0.html) before posting again.

+FrChris
Admin
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Robert W on May 19, 2009, 10:19:05 AM
Christ is risen!

Sorry to drag this sorry thread to the top again.

I don't have the energy to engage in a prolonged discussion about this subject but I feel that I have to say a few words.

There is a conflict within the Finnish Orthodox Church. The well meaning Theoprovlitos  have correctly named Heikki Huttunen (Orthodox priest, chairman of the Finnish ecumenical council and active homosexual rights supporter) and his gang, that includes a handful of Orthodox priests, as the agitators.

Among the opponents of Heikki Huttunen & co are some leading people of the Orthodox lay academy located at the new Valaam monastery, Pyhän Kosmas Aitolialaisen Veljestö (Brotherhood of Cosmas of Aetolia) and numerous priests. These have been sending letters to the Archbishop Leo asking him to take action. If the Archbishop fails to take action these people and organisations have been threatening to turn to Moscow for help (i.e. setting up a parallel Church in Finland that would be under the Patriarch of Moscow).

I do not think that the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Patriarch of Moscow are blind and dumb. They know what is going on. I get the feeling they are just waiting for the Finnish Church to "sit straight" (pun actually intended, sorry 8) ), they do not want to interfere prematurely. If Heikki Huttunen and friends would actually manage to "take over" the Finnish Orthodox Church (quite unlikely) I have no doubt that both Moscow and Constantinople would come swinging their patriarchal staffs.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Fr. George on May 19, 2009, 11:12:23 AM
If Heikki Huttunen and friends would actually manage to "take over" the Finnish Orthodox Church (quite unlikely) I have no doubt that both Moscow and Constantinople would come swinging their patriarchal staffs.

Indeed.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 19, 2009, 01:17:14 PM
Christ is risen!

Sorry to drag this sorry thread to the top again.

I don't have the energy to engage in a prolonged discussion about this subject but I feel that I have to say a few words.

There is a conflict within the Finnish Orthodox Church. The well meaning Theoprovlitos  have correctly named Heikki Huttunen (Orthodox priest, chairman of the Finnish ecumenical council and active homosexual rights supporter) and his gang, that includes a handful of Orthodox priests, as the agitators.

Among the opponents of Heikki Huttunen & co are some leading people of the Orthodox lay academy located at the new Valaam monastery, Pyhän Kosmas Aitolialaisen Veljestö (Brotherhood of Cosmas of Aetolia) and numerous priests. These have been sending letters to the Archbishop Leo asking him to take action. If the Archbishop fails to take action these people and organisations have been threatening to turn to Moscow for help (i.e. setting up a parallel Church in Finland that would be under the Patriarch of Moscow).

I do not think that the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Patriarch of Moscow are blind and dumb. They know what is going on. I get the feeling they are just waiting for the Finnish Church to "sit straight" (pun actually intended, sorry 8) ), they do not want to interfere prematurely. If Heikki Huttunen and friends would actually manage to "take over" the Finnish Orthodox Church (quite unlikely) I have no doubt that both Moscow and Constantinople would come swinging their patriarchal staffs.

You would be surprised to know that there are more people than the ones mentioned who are against the actual status of the Finnish Church but they are no so foolish to openly protest against the situation. There is another team that translates every article into Russian and send it to the Moscow Patriarchate.

I personaly have cooperated with the Finnish Church, Heikki Huttunen himself, Bishop Arseni, Abbot Sergei, previous Archbishop John, Archbishop's secretary, Lintulan Monastery etc. I have friends in various posts of the Finnish Church. And I personally know the people of St Kosmas Aetolialainen who do an important work by transalting Greek Orthodox books into Finnish.

Many of the people visited Greece or stayed with us in the past. Some were "innovators" and some were openly gay. And this wasn't an issue. It BECAME an issue since Fr Heikki Huttunen as an ultra ecumenist (actually a PROFESSIONAL ONE) is getting payed to bring the "churches" together. And the only thing that is an obstacle (I supose that to him all other dogmatic differences have been resolved) is the ordination of women and acceptance of homosexuality in the Church. And he is working HARD on that.

I insist that he is unable even to see the HUGE difference between accepting a homosexual person and accepting homosexuality itself which is the same as accepting an adulterer in the church and adultery itself. And Fr Heikki goes even further by suggestin acceptance of homosexual marriage and even blessing them as if they were man and wife. This is a combination of immorality and heresy that church history has NEVER dealed before with.

As amatter of fact the true Archbishop of Finladn is Fr Heikki who has managed to infuence other priests and promote his people to important positions in the Orthodox Church. From the Archbishop's assistants to Ortaid, the Uspensky cathedral, the publications department, etc. Archbishop Leo is practically being dragged by the facts.

The fact is that both Patriarchates know what is going on but in order to do this someone has to transalte them from Finnish all those disgraseful articles that have been published in Aamun Koitto mainly by Fr Heikki Hutunen's spiritual son, the worst of all being the hints that Christ was homosexual and had a special relationship with St John while Ss Sergius and Baccus were homosexuals. In reality they reproduce the vomit of an American guy called Boswell and have turn his blasphemies into the 5th Gospel. They suck Boswell's vomit and trow it against the face of the Orthodox people. And so two things happen:

Those who are mature in faith, or they have connections with other Orthodox countries OF COURSE they protest. They have been writing letters to Metropolitan Ambrosius bu tin vain. They have been calling to see him and Ambrosius was hiding. They never got any official reply from anyone in the Finnish Orthodox Church. Therefore it is the attitude of the Finnish Church that pushed them towards Moscow. They DIDN'T address themselves to Moscow right from the start.

Those who are immature and new converts in faith they are being educated that the immorality and the heresy introduced by Boswel is TRUE ORTHODOXY. And so new converts to Orthodoxy in Finland if they happen to become Orthodox bythat spesific group they are becoming in reality heretics just like their false-teachers.

It is a fact that Fr Heikki is DETERMINED to pass this cult in the Finnish Orthodox CHurch. And this is why not only they never reply to protests but they persecute those who protest, to begin with by calling them fanatics, and fundamentalists while I know very well that they aren't. What they might be is that they have that extra zeal of converts (they are converts too) to keep the letter of the law and live an ascetic and spiritual life.

This sometimes is the other side of converts: Either to zealous to keep the letter of the law while what's important is the spirit, or the opposite (like Fr Heikki Huttunen) when for "humanistic" reasons and for the sake of "New Age love" there are neither Letters nor Laws and EVERYTHING is allowed!

Both lines are outside the frame of Orthodoxy but at least the first one is dogmatically and morally correct and I personally prefer it to the immorality introduced as "freedom" and "evolution".

However something HAS to happen in the Orthodox Church of Finland befroe it is too late. May be it will. I just got this announcement from the EP in reply to my letter and presentation of documents and facts..


ΟΙΚΟΥΜΕΝΙΚΟΝ ΠΑΤΡΙΑΡΧΕΙΟΝ

ΑΓΙΑ ΚΑΙ ΙΕΡΑ ΣΥΝΟΔΟΣ

Συνῆλθεν, ὑπό τήν προεδρείαν τῆς Α. Θ. Παναγιότητος, ἡ Ἁγία καί Ἱερά Σύνοδος εἰς τάς τακτικάς συνεδρίας αὐτῆς τὴν Δευτέραν, 18ην, καὶ τὴν Τρίτην, 19ην  τ. μ.  Μαΐου, καὶ ἐξήτασε πάντα τὰ ἐν τῇ ἡμερησίᾳ διατάξει ἀναγεγραμμένα θέματα, ἐπὶ τῶν ὁποίων καὶ ἐλήφθησαν αἱ προσήκουσαι ἀποφάσεις.
                     
      Ἐκ τοῦ Γραφείου.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Robert W on May 19, 2009, 03:04:23 PM
You would be surprised to know that there are more people than the ones mentioned who are against the actual status of the Finnish Church but they are no so foolish to openly protest against the situation. There is another team that translates every article into Russian and send it to the Moscow Patriarchate.

I am most certainly not surprised, even though this is new information to me. I am well aware that there is a broad grass roots movement against what is going on.

I know Theoprovlitos that you write so passionately about this subject because you care, but I would like to ask you to tone it down a little bit. Accusations that Metropolitan Ambrosius is gay is not really helping the cause. Remember that to slander a bishop is to slander the apostolic office. It is unwise to publicly accuse a bishop based on hearsay.

I am eagerly waiting for Archbishop Leo to open his mouth and speak, he has been silent about this for too long! I do have confidence in him. He is by no means a stupid man and I hope that he soon will realize that the greater part of his flock expects him to do something about father Heikki.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 19, 2009, 08:15:44 PM
I am most certainly not surprised, even though this is new information to me. I am well aware that there is a broad grass roots movement against what is going on.

I know Theoprovlitos that you write so passionately about this subject because you care, but I would like to ask you to tone it down a little bit. Accusations that Metropolitan Ambrosius is gay is not really helping the cause. Remember that to slander a bishop is to slander the apostolic office. It is unwise to publicly accuse a bishop based on hearsay.

I am eagerly waiting for Archbishop Leo to open his mouth and speak, he has been silent about this for too long! I do have confidence in him. He is by no means a stupid man and I hope that he soon will realize that the greater part of his flock expects him to do something about father Heikki.

Amen! My aim isn't and never was to accuse a bishop or even a priest for being gay. Because this is something between himself and God and as you stated an office is not influenced by someone's sanctity. Besides I know or have heard stories about who is gay and who isn't. The problem is the acceptance of immorality in the church especailly gay marriages which are a blasphemy to the realtion of Christ as a bridegroom with His church s a bride. I think this goes beyond the limits of heresy.

I would be happy if I knew that Metropolitan Ambrosius was gay but doesn't tolerate or teaches such things than his being straight but accepts all that stuff in the Church.

My idea about Metropolitan Ambrosius is that he COULD be one of the best bishops in Orthodoxy thanks to his talents, But something went really wrong with him or maybe with the people who surround him.

I am not happy if people will be beheaded. It is a pitty for him for his efforts for the Orthodox Church. But what's the use being active as a MANAGER when spiritualy you let the wolves eat the lamps?

The very same appleis to Fr Heikki Huttunen. He COULD be an important perosn in the church while now he has become a danger because of his PRIDE to teach ALL others about what is right and wrong.



Hierarchical title added to each mention of a bishop's name to make post compliant with forum policy regarding the respect we are to give our hierarchs  -PtA
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 19, 2009, 08:30:46 PM
PS As to Archbishop Leo, truly he seems /seemed to be a serious person. However to the surprise of many, while in private discussions he admitted the existance of a strong "Gay mafia" within the Finnish Orthodox Church, he publically never denounced them or took measures against them while he even hired Mr Jyrki Harkonen, close friend (if not spiritual child) of Fr Heikki Huttunen. How do these all match the image of a serious hierarch? Or is the mafia blackmailing or manipulating even the Archbishop himself who doesn't want to start an open front with them? Even the worlds they put in his mouth are not written by him but given to him. I mean his church is falling apart. He HAD to do something else than keep silent.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PoorFoolNicholas on May 20, 2009, 09:27:45 AM
Or is the mafia blackmailing or manipulating even the Archbishop himself who doesn't want to start an open front with them?
Yeah, they probably threatened to stone him with rose petals. ::) I have to admit, that it does sound like there are some problems within the Orthodox Church of Finland. But your constant conspiracy theorizing does NOT help one bit in your arguments.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Aristobolus on May 20, 2009, 10:06:34 AM
Theoprovlitos,

I think that your words speak more of a desire to call attention to a very disturbing situation in the Orthodox Church (I speak this way because there is only One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church).  When one of its members suffer, we all suffer. 

As for conspiracies, how do we think mainstream American denomination were taken over?  With open air meetings to begin with?  Besides, Theoprovlitos is not speaking of some "underground" shadow government- he speaks of what is happening openly at this more later stage of degradation in the life of the Church of Finland.

However it should hearten all of us that we are hearing of reports that the Hierarchs are aware of this situation, and will tend to the flock.  We all need tending at times.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 20, 2009, 10:38:01 AM
Or is the mafia blackmailing or manipulating even the Archbishop himself who doesn't want to start an open front with them?
Yeah, they probably threatened to stone him with rose petals. ::) I have to admit, that it does sound like there are some problems within the Orthodox Church of Finland. But your constant conspiracy theorizing does NOT help one bit in your arguments.

iN this case you are never going to get sufficient "evidences" for what do I mean by threaten or manipulate because I will have to refer to details which cannot be announced here both because they will ruin the image of the Finnish Orthodox Church even more and becasue I don't want to reveal my sources which exist quietly without daring to openly tell their views.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PoorFoolNicholas on May 20, 2009, 10:43:05 AM
iN this case you are never going to get sufficient "evidences" for what do I mean by threaten or manipulate because I will have to refer to details which cannot be announced here both because they will ruin the image of the Finnish Orthodox Church even more and becasue I don't want to reveal my sources which exist quietly without daring to openly tell their views.
That is SOOOOOOO convenient. Man just when it seemed like you would have to prove something you have said, and then, WHAM, another conspiracy. You live a very exciting life indeed. Ruin the image of the Finnish Church? You haven't held back before, so what is stopping you now? Lack of evidence to support a pet theory is my guess. ::)
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 20, 2009, 11:02:45 AM
iN this case you are never going to get sufficient "evidences" for what do I mean by threaten or manipulate because I will have to refer to details which cannot be announced here both because they will ruin the image of the Finnish Orthodox Church even more and becasue I don't want to reveal my sources which exist quietly without daring to openly tell their views.
That is SOOOOOOO convenient. Man just when it seemed like you would have to prove something you have said, and then, WHAM, another conspiracy. You live a very exciting life indeed. Ruin the image of the Finnish Church? You haven't held back before, so what is stopping you now? Lack of evidence to support a pet theory is my guess. ::)

I am afraid that you are the only one left to believe that all this is a conspiracy and soon noone is going to take you seriously. AND it is obviously a personal thing against me because whenever you get testimonies form other people you don't even DARE questioning their credibility.

You can keep dreaming in a fictionary world till one day you wake up and face harsh reality as it is.

Someone who lives in Greece and knows SO many people in the Finnish Chruch either he must be clairvoyant or a CIA agent I guess according to you. It is impossible to you that he knows SPECIFIC people of the environement of bishop Ambrosius or Archbishop Leo. That he happens to know who are the ones who write Leo's speaches on his behalf.

Ok here's one more link from the magazine "Road to Emmaus" of which I happen to be a correspondent

http://www.roadtoemmaus.net/back_issue_articles/RTE_12/Living_Theology_in_Thessalonica.pdf

The latest issue on the Church of Finland is not online yet. Of course there you won't see scandals but the optimistic side of things, though A LOT have happened since the interview was taken.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PoorFoolNicholas on May 20, 2009, 11:05:41 AM
No, you lose credibility, when you state something as FACT, then when asked to support your position, say that it is confidential/ damaging info. Support what you say, and then, maybe people will listen to you.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 20, 2009, 01:52:45 PM
Theoprovlitos,

Are you aware of the logical fallacy of the bald-faced (a.k.a. bare) assertion?


IOW, the bare assertion fallacy can be summed up this way:  "It's true because I say it's true, and I don't lie."  The reason this doesn't work, though, is that we can't verify from your words alone that you're not lying.  Maybe you're telling us the whole truth and nothing but the truth, but how do we know?  You've not been here long enough to establish any credibility for yourself, and what inclination we may have had to offer you the benefit of the doubt you have summarily destroyed with outrageous claims that appear highly unlikely at face value, so we're not inclined to trust you just yet.  Thus it all comes down to nothing more than what you say here.  (Maybe what you're saying is totally true.  But how do we know?)  There's one way around this impasse:  show us official sources that prove that you're not lying.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on May 20, 2009, 02:04:12 PM
You can keep dreaming in a fictionary world till one day you wake up and face harsh reality as it is.

You mean one day we'll wake up, see something actually worth getting upset about, substantially proven by a legitimate source, and then react accordingly? 

That sounds good to me.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 20, 2009, 02:12:29 PM
No, you lose credibility, when you state something as FACT, then when asked to support your position, say that it is confidential/ damaging info. Support what you say, and then, maybe people will listen to you.

No I am sorry, it is better for me to sound ureliale than turn in some people and cause them more trouble than they are already in. Whatever is published can be reproduced. The rest makes the picture more complete to those who already know.

For instance Archbishop Leo was saying different things before Mr Harkonen became his "Theological" Secretary. What do you wan to know? Who is writing him his speaches and who told me?

And if a teenager has suffered sexual harassment from a certain priest what do you want to know the name of the priest or the name of the child?
And last but not least if a child has suffered sexual harassment from a priest and he turns to the police then what should the police do? Instead of arresting the offender  arrest the child due to "lack of evidence" for spreading false rumours?

I am not targetting at the Archbishop Leo in anycase for any other reason than letting some rotten theologians destroy the Finnish Orthodox Church. It is evident from other news (with that priest who is a candidate in the elections) that in the Finnish Orthodox Church WHOEVER does WHATEVER he pleases. As if it were a HEADLESS corps while its head should be Christ.

Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 20, 2009, 02:37:35 PM
You can keep dreaming in a fictionary world till one day you wake up and face harsh reality as it is.

You mean one day we'll wake up, see something actually worth getting upset about, substantially proven by a legitimate source, and then react accordingly? 

That sounds good to me.

I am not sure if you mean by that that you don't read enough Finnish newspapers or even links of official Finnish and Russian organizations or simply that the promotion of homosexuality and gay marriage within the Church and of openly gay priests doesn't upset you at all. I'd rather assume the second, because the sources presented here as well as testimonies from at least three more people besides myself, are more than enough. I mean is the OFFICIAL program of a gay activist ecumenist group against you. And I would rather believe what I see than what you don't even though it is more than evident.

Here some more for you

Finnish Monk arrested for sexual harassment of 6 men

From the official site of Finnish police

http://yle.fi/poliisitv/raportit.php?sivu=raportti_anon

and various sites from google

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=munkki+Kristoforos+Haapaj%C3%A4rvi&meta=

Now these "Orthodox" people are trying to prove that nothing is wrong with a priest or a monk openly express his homosexuality.

Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 20, 2009, 03:17:29 PM
You can keep dreaming in a fictionary world till one day you wake up and face harsh reality as it is.

You mean one day we'll wake up, see something actually worth getting upset about, substantially proven by a legitimate source, and then react accordingly? 

That sounds good to me.

I am not sure if you mean by that that you don't read enough Finnish newspapers or even links of official Finnish and Russian organizations or simply that the promotion of homosexuality and gay marriage within the Church and of openly gay priests doesn't upset you at all. I'd rather assume the second,
So, you would rather assume the worst of an individual?

because the sources presented here as well as testimonies from at least three more people besides myself, are more than enough.
As a general rule, that's for us on the jury to decide.  If we're not convinced of the truthfulness of the claims here presented, then it's more likely that what evidence you have provided is just not enough of the right kind to convince us.

I mean is the OFFICIAL program of a gay activist ecumenist group against you. And I would rather believe what I see than what you don't even though it is more than evident.

Here some more for you

Finnish Monk arrested for sexual harassment of 6 men

From the official site of Finnish police

http://yle.fi/poliisitv/raportit.php?sivu=raportti_anon

and various sites from google

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=munkki+Kristoforos+Haapaj%C3%A4rvi&meta=
I don't doubt the sad truth of this criminal behavior on the part of a monk, but this may very well be an isolated occurrence that reveals nothing of any kind of a larger conspiracy of a gay activist ecumenist group.

Now these "Orthodox" people are trying to prove that nothing is wrong with a priest or a monk openly express his homosexuality.
And that is an outrageous, though possibly true claim that you have yet to substantiate.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 21, 2009, 01:28:21 AM
And that is an outrageous, though possibly true claim that you have yet to substantiate.

You can simply check the program of the PRO GAY 'CHRISTIAN' ECUMENIST conference which Just started with the OPEN particiption of ORTHODOX PRIESTS,as PRIESTS and not as individuals and the blessing of the local BISHOP who was/is to particiapte as well. If you also watch carefully you will find out that there will also be Orthodox SERVICES adn as far as I know an Orthodox priest cannot organize even SERVICES eithout his bishop knowing and it is more than obvious that the priest who will serve it is particiapting there as a PRIEST and not as an individual.

I remind that with the case of another priest whose crime was to participate in the european elections the Finnish Church IMMEDIATELY responded and took measures against him while in the case of the gay activist "orthodox" not only they keep silent but they absolutely agree. Or the Official website of the Ecumenist Gay Organization where the preists of the Gay mafia OPENLY list their names and supporters

You have to start trusting your eyes and your logic, (just as everybody else).
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 21, 2009, 02:12:11 AM
You have to start trusting your eyes and your logic, (just as everybody else).
Ya know, I've learned to trust only half of what I can see, and my reasoning has often led me astray.  That's why I ask a lot of questions and often display a "prove it to me" approach to discussions.

So back to the question of the day:  Why should I believe what you have to say?
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 21, 2009, 09:08:17 AM

So back to the question of the day:  Why should I believe what you have to say?

Simply because it is there on the internet everywhere, and not according to MY point of view but on the contrary on THEIRS. Their christian ethics have been so badly altered that they even PUBLISH what they do being even proud about it. In a serious church that is not falling apart you just don't have a priest who is OFFICIALLY representing the Orthodox Church in the Ecumenical Cousil have his name OPENLY listed in a Ecumenist Gay Organization and even give pro-gay lectures in ecumenist gay meetings or give interviews in Orthodox gay magazines about blessing homosexual weddings in the Church.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PoorFoolNicholas on May 21, 2009, 09:25:22 AM
You're doing a great job at proving your point Theoprovlitos.  ::)

Just as an aside, Do they call themselves the "Gay Mafia", or is this your title for them? If it is YOUR title you are, yet again, showing how UNobjective you are, and therefore, LESS believable.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 21, 2009, 12:44:16 PM
You're doing a great job at proving your point Theoprovlitos.  ::)

Just as an aside, Do they call themselves the "Gay Mafia", or is this your title for them? If it is YOUR title you are, yet again, showing how UNobjective you are, and therefore, LESS believable.

No the term gay mafia is used by me. It has een used by the Archbishop Leo in private discussion with a theoligian who went to discuss with him on the issue but of course the only way you can proove that, is have the two people involved admit it.

Anyway they consist of a group because it is the very same people everywhere promoting each other to important positions in the Church promoting homosexuality and threatening those who protest.

As for example when the theologian Hannu Poyhonen, of the New Valaam Monastery Lay Academy gave a lecture about the true Orthodox views on homosexuality, the chairman of the Lay Academy who also happens to be First priest of Helsinki parish and member of the Ecumenist Gay Club went to Valamo in order to make Poyhonen shut up otherwise his job is at risk and "his people" would start a boycot against the New Valaam Lay Academy and the monastery itself. Abbot Sergei is of the Orthodox line and took Poyhonen's side unlike Archbishop Leo who was present and didn't open his mouth playing the "diplomat". His secretary also belongs to the Orthodox Gay Club.

The Gay Club, or mafia -name it as you wish but "Church"- tries to manipulate also Valaam Monastery. The sad thing is that they have managed to introduce discretely their gay propaganda also in the Finnish Orthodox Schoolbooks:

Here it is the part that introduces HOMOSEXUALITY AMONG SCHOOLCHILDREN:

"The Orthodox teaching on love and sexuality includes within it MANY DIFFERENT WAYS. ALL of them however lead to the service of love. Love is a deeper service and sexuality is just one small part of it."

Then "The main teacher of Christian sexual ethics HAS BEEN for long Apostle Paul."

From Finnish "Orthodox" schoolbook "Orthodox Ethics and Dogmatic/Ortodoksinen Etiikka ja Dogmatikka" page 57.

Of course this is not the ONLY fallacy that has been included simply because Finns believe that they are their OWN teachers and this book has never been checked by a committee of expert theolgians from Greece or Russia.

In another part which reflects their perception of a NEw Age Rainbow God is on the chapter on the existence of evil and suffering, where the author claims that "God's work only starts AFTER the catastrophy because the existance of evil is mystery also to Him" (page 66).  No wander when these people believe in a NEw Age Christ -who is never angry or a judge- that they would come to the conclusion that EVERYTHING around sex is allowed and the only-good Rainbow Christ not only tolerates imorality but He blesses it!
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 21, 2009, 03:39:54 PM
You're doing a great job at proving your point Theoprovlitos.  ::)

Just as an aside, Do they call themselves the "Gay Mafia", or is this your title for them? If it is YOUR title you are, yet again, showing how UNobjective you are, and therefore, LESS believable.

No the term gay mafia is used by me. It has een used by the Archbishop Leo in private discussion with a theoligian who went to discuss with him on the issue but of course the only way you can proove that, is have the two people involved admit it.

Anyway they consist of a group because it is the very same people everywhere promoting each other to important positions in the Church promoting homosexuality and threatening those who protest.

As for example when the theologian Hannu Poyhonen, of the New Valaam Monastery Lay Academy gave a lecture about the true Orthodox views on homosexuality, the chairman of the Lay Academy who also happens to be First priest of Helsinki parish and member of the Ecumenist Gay Club went to Valamo in order to make Poyhonen shut up otherwise his job is at risk and "his people" would start a boycot against the New Valaam Lay Academy and the monastery itself. Abbot Sergei is of the Orthodox line and took Poyhonen's side unlike Archbishop Leo who was present and didn't open his mouth playing the "diplomat". His secretary also belongs to the Orthodox Gay Club.

The Gay Club, or mafia -name it as you wish but "Church"- tries to manipulate also Valaam Monastery. The sad thing is that they have managed to introduce discretely their gay propaganda also in the Finnish Orthodox Schoolbooks:

Here it is the part that introduces HOMOSEXUALITY AMONG SCHOOLCHILDREN:

"The Orthodox teaching on love and sexuality includes within it MANY DIFFERENT WAYS. ALL of them however lead to the service of love. Love is a deeper service and sexuality is just one small part of it."

Then "The main teacher of Christian sexual ethics HAS BEEN for long Apostle Paul."

From Finnish "Orthodox" schoolbook "Orthodox Ethics and Dogmatic/Ortodoksinen Etiikka ja Dogmatikka" page 57.

Of course this is not the ONLY fallacy that has been included simply because Finns believe that they are their OWN teachers and this book has never been checked by a committee of expert theolgians from Greece or Russia.

In another part which reflects their perception of a NEw Age Rainbow God is on the chapter on the existence of evil and suffering, where the author claims that "God's work only starts AFTER the catastrophy because the existance of evil is mystery also to Him" (page 66).  No wander when these people believe in a NEw Age Christ -who is never angry or a judge- that they would come to the conclusion that EVERYTHING around sex is allowed and the only-good Rainbow Christ not only tolerates imorality but He blesses it!
So, just more of what you say is going on. ::)  Where's the proof?  Don't just tell me to go find it online.  Bring it here and post links to it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PoorFoolNicholas on May 21, 2009, 03:41:10 PM
I second that!
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: orthodoxlurker on May 21, 2009, 05:19:00 PM
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=6046

Quote
21 May 2009, 17:38
Clerics of Constantinople Patriarchate to participate in a gay conference in Finland

Helsinki, May 21, Interfax - The clerics of the Finnish Orthodox Church of the Constantinople Patriarchate are going to participate in the European Forum of LGBT Christian Groups Conference Courage to Follow the Law of Love which opened Tuesday in Järvenpää and Helsinki, Finland.

The participants will begin every day by attending the Orthodox service, and then going to sauna, the social movement Yhteys (Unity) which is fighting for the rights of sexual minorities, reports.
...

The entire article at the link above.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Aristobolus on May 22, 2009, 12:48:11 AM
The silence is deafening.  Someone provides what is no doubt a credible news source, namely Interfax; and one can hear a pin drop.  Finland may seem light years away, but if this situation is not dealt with, then for the first time in Orthodox church history, a considerable amount of Eastern Rite churches will be in the hands of sodomites.  They will spread this movement from Finland to other regions, setting up parallel "gay friendly" jurisdictions.  At the very least all of us should be grieved and sickened over this.  We should bring this to the attention of our bishops.  Do not just read about this on a blog and live a virtual reality on a screen; contact your bishop with this Interfax report. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Robert W on May 22, 2009, 02:28:47 AM
 ??? What is being discussed here? This thread has stopped making sense a long time ago.

The OP speaks about the gay conference that will include participation of Orthodox clergy. Our poster Theoprovlitos  provided a link to the website of the group called "yhteys" right from the start. The participation of Orthodox clergy in this event was never in question.

Thank you orthodoxlurker for posting the interfax link. It is interesting to see that this event is noted elsewhere also. Unfortunately Interfax has chosen to blame Constantinople instead of Helsinki :-\ talk about barking up the wrong three.  ::)
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 22, 2009, 02:39:06 AM
The silence is deafening.  Someone provides what is no doubt a credible news source, namely Interfax; and one can hear a pin drop.
I guess you can take the internet silence however you're inclined to take it.  However, it may just mean that no one has had time to respond to this news flash until now.  Internet discussion forums have a totally different concept of time than real life discussions.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 22, 2009, 02:42:18 AM
Thank you orthodoxlurker for posting the interfax link. It is interesting to see that this event is noted elsewhere also. Unfortunately Interfax has chosen to blame Constantinople instead of Helsinki :-\ talk about barking up the wrong three.  ::)
I notice also that the Interfax article doesn't go into any detail regarding the official positions the Orthodox participants (outside of maybe Fr. Heikki Huttunen) have decided to represent in this conference.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: shep4569 on May 22, 2009, 03:33:54 AM
I do not think that the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Patriarch of Moscow are blind and dumb. They know what is going on. I get the feeling they are just waiting for the Finnish Church to "sit straight" (pun actually intended, sorry 8)

That's hilarious. Awesome pun. :)

Now to be serious, I agree with the quoted statement. I don't necessarily agree with the lack of verbal action and outcry from the EP (apparently the application of Canon 28 is more important than preventing heresy...okay back on track), but eventually they'll do something. I guess we can only pray that wisdom prevails. The Church lives on in the hearts of the true faithful that flee from the heretics. Hopefully there won't be any pillars of salt to clean up after they flee.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Theoprovlitos on May 22, 2009, 07:09:13 AM
Thank you orthodoxlurker for posting the interfax link. It is interesting to see that this event is noted elsewhere also. Unfortunately Interfax has chosen to blame Constantinople instead of Helsinki :-\ talk about barking up the wrong three.  ::)
I notice also that the Interfax article doesn't go into any detail regarding the official positions the Orthodox participants (outside of maybe Fr. Heikki Huttunen) have decided to represent in this conference.

Peter you are HOPELESS. From the start I had to deal in this webste and forum A PERSONAL attack SYSTEMATICALLY doubting my credibility, my reliability no matter the DOZENS of proofs which were more than evidences. I have SYSTEMATICALLY been object to accusations that I present even elements which I MADE UP or a "dark mind" behind this is organizing gay conferences which "do not exist".

What you have managed to do is proof thet this FORUM as well as this WEBSITE is INFAMOUS and is pushing its views on the participants or it SCORNS those who disagree with the PERSONAL views of various "moderators" which by the way afe FAR from being Orthodox. Simply becasue they do not understand the simple thing that the participation of PRIESTS in an OFFICIAL ECUMENIST meeting CANNOT take place without the approval of the local bishop. The bishop had ALL THE TIME to stop these priests in the very same way the did with Fr Mitro Reppo about his particiapation in the elections but he didn't.

As to the heretical schoolbook it can be found from the internet and once you buy it you can get all the evidences you may need.

That's enough. Don't ruin the image of the forum even more. Cause from facebook messages and private messages that I got, people don't seem to appreciate what is going on.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: orthodoxlurker on May 22, 2009, 08:47:39 AM
...The participation of Orthodox clergy in this event was never in question.
...

Good to finally see recognition of that fact. Hopefully nobody will mock Theopravlitos' efforts anymore.

Unfortunately Interfax has chosen to blame Constantinople instead of Helsinki :-\ talk about barking up the wrong three.  ::)


Since Helsinki is an autonomous Church within Constantinoplean see, there is nothing wrong in their emphasize. Constantinopolis should be the first to react, or, should I say was supposed to react first when Finland, as part of Constantinopolis, placed herself under anathema by celebrating Easter on the date of her own choosing.

Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Tamara on May 22, 2009, 10:27:21 AM
Here is the whole news article from Interfax in case someone cannot connect with the link.

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=6046

21 May 2009, 17:38
Clerics of Constantinople Patriarchate to participate in a gay conference in Finland

Helsinki, May 21, Interfax - The clerics of the Finnish Orthodox Church of the Constantinople Patriarchate are going to participate in the European Forum of LGBT Christian Groups Conference Courage to Follow the Law of Love which opened Tuesday in Järvenpää and Helsinki, Finland.

The participants will begin every day by attending the Orthodox service, and then going to sauna, the social movement Yhteys (Unity) which is fighting for the rights of sexual minorities, reports.

May 22, Helsinki University will host the open church seminar which will address the issues of homosexual relations. According to a published schedule, General Secretary of the Finnish Ecumenical Council Archpriest Heikki Huttunen will present his paper Homosexuality in the Orthodox theology.

In January issue of Aamun Koitto, this well-known priest of the Finnish Orthodox Church addressed at length  his viewpoint on homosexual "marriage" as "the reflection of the Divine power and benign sexual source."

The clergy of Constantinople Patriarchate also intends to hold a discussion of the issues of spiritual integration of homosexuals into the Church. The subject matter of one session is entitled as Can a male priest fall in love to another man and live with him?
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PoorFoolNicholas on May 22, 2009, 10:31:48 AM
Here is the whole news article from Interfax in case someone cannot connect with the link.

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=6046

21 May 2009, 17:38
Clerics of Constantinople Patriarchate to participate in a gay conference in Finland

Helsinki, May 21, Interfax - The clerics of the Finnish Orthodox Church of the Constantinople Patriarchate are going to participate in the European Forum of LGBT Christian Groups Conference Courage to Follow the Law of Love which opened Tuesday in Järvenpää and Helsinki, Finland.

The participants will begin every day by attending the Orthodox service, and then going to sauna, the social movement Yhteys (Unity) which is fighting for the rights of sexual minorities, reports.

May 22, Helsinki University will host the open church seminar which will address the issues of homosexual relations. According to a published schedule, General Secretary of the Finnish Ecumenical Council Archpriest Heikki Huttunen will present his paper Homosexuality in the Orthodox theology.

In January issue of Aamun Koitto, this well-known priest of the Finnish Orthodox Church addressed at length  his viewpoint on homosexual "marriage" as "the reflection of the Divine power and benign sexual source."

The clergy of Constantinople Patriarchate also intends to hold a discussion of the issues of spiritual integration of homosexuals into the Church. The subject matter of one session is entitled as Can a male priest fall in love to another man and live with him?
Thank you. This is indeed troubling. And I know what is coming next so I will address it now:
Theoprovlitos, if you had simply provided what Tamara did above, many would have had more of a reason to trust your allegations.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Αριστοκλής on May 22, 2009, 10:48:59 AM
Come on, man. It's Interfax. Unnamed 'clergy of Constantinople Patriarchate'?
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PoorFoolNicholas on May 22, 2009, 10:52:09 AM
Come on, man. It's Interfax. Unnamed 'clergy of Constantinople Patriarchate'?
I am just saying that it looks better than what we have been given previously. Should I know something about interfax, that I am missing?
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Aristobolus on May 22, 2009, 11:13:42 AM
"I guess you can take the internet silence however you're inclined to take it.  However, it may just mean that no one has had time to respond to this news flash until now.  Internet discussion forums have a totally different concept of time than real life discussions".

Point taken.

Theoprovlitos, be careful saying someone is "hopeless".  Possibly English is not your first language; this can cause communication challenges both in receiving and giving messages.  However, I commend you for your concern regarding our Faith. 

But personal jibes will only give food for the fodder for those who would want this stuff in Finland to fly under the radar- not that anyone here does per se.  Those who are concerned should forward this Interfax report to their Bishops and request them to contact the appropriate Heirarchs.  At the very least then you will have done about all you can accept to pray.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 22, 2009, 08:46:55 PM
The clergy of Constantinople Patriarchate also intends to hold a discussion of the issues of spiritual integration of homosexuals into the Church. The subject matter of one session is entitled as Can a male priest fall in love to another man and live with him?
Why do people automatically assume that just because some church group decides to discuss an issue, they must necessarily consider the issue potentially acceptable?  I run into this "We oppose it, so why even discuss it?" attitude far too often in the Church.  What if it turns out that the clergy discussing this matter will all answer the question of discussion with a very firm "NO!" and are only discussing how best to voice this "NO!"?
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 22, 2009, 09:29:27 PM
In January issue of Aamun Koitto, this well-known priest of the Finnish Orthodox Church addressed at length  his viewpoint on
 homosexual "marriage" as "the reflection of the Divine power and benign sexual source."

I'd be very interested in seeing this article.  Is there any chance of obtaining an English translation?


As an aside,  I am a marriage celebrant for both the Church and the State (in New Zealand, Church marriage celebrants are all State registered so when we officiate at a wedding we have the dual role as a Christian priest and an agent of the Government.)

I am however forbidden by the Governemt from officiating at homosexual weddings.  At the time of the law legalising homosexual marriage, clergy were fobidden to officiate.  In order to qualify a priest/minister must pass a State interview to demonstrate that he is pro gay marriage. 

Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: SolEX01 on May 22, 2009, 10:07:30 PM
Thank you orthodoxlurker for posting the interfax link. It is interesting to see that this event is noted elsewhere also. Unfortunately Interfax has chosen to blame Constantinople instead of Helsinki :-\ talk about barking up the wrong three.  ::)
I notice also that the Interfax article doesn't go into any detail regarding the official positions the Orthodox participants (outside of maybe Fr. Heikki Huttunen) have decided to represent in this conference.

Peter you are HOPELESS. From the start I had to deal in this webste and forum A PERSONAL attack SYSTEMATICALLY doubting my credibility, my reliability no matter the DOZENS of proofs which were more than evidences. I have SYSTEMATICALLY been object to accusations that I present even elements which I MADE UP or a "dark mind" behind this is organizing gay conferences which "do not exist".

What you have managed to do is proof thet this FORUM as well as this WEBSITE is INFAMOUS and is pushing its views on the participants or it SCORNS those who disagree with the PERSONAL views of various "moderators" which by the way afe FAR from being Orthodox. Simply becasue they do not understand the simple thing that the participation of PRIESTS in an OFFICIAL ECUMENIST meeting CANNOT take place without the approval of the local bishop. The bishop had ALL THE TIME to stop these priests in the very same way the did with Fr Mitro Reppo about his particiapation in the elections but he didn't.

As to the heretical schoolbook it can be found from the internet and once you buy it you can get all the evidences you may need.

That's enough. Don't ruin the image of the forum even more. Cause from facebook messages and private messages that I got, people don't seem to appreciate what is going on.

Friend, maybe I've missed the message.  Have you demonstrated that any Bishop of the Church of Finland and/or Archbishop Leo has condemned this meeting?

Since Finland is an autonomous Church, not even the EP can intervene.  So far, His All Holiness has made no official comment.  Therefore, whether you agree with the Church of Finland's stance towards homosexuals or not, do not expect His All Holiness to take a stand and stop this meeting because you disagree with its theories.  If the Church of Finland wants to fall into heresy, let it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Aristobolus on May 23, 2009, 10:32:37 AM
If a person or church wants to fall into heresy, let them?  Possibly this was not phrased well.  Should our concern not be for our neighbor? 
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Tamara on May 23, 2009, 10:52:22 AM
The clergy of Constantinople Patriarchate also intends to hold a discussion of the issues of spiritual integration of homosexuals into the Church. The subject matter of one session is entitled as Can a male priest fall in love to another man and live with him?
Why do people automatically assume that just because some church group decides to discuss an issue, they must necessarily consider the issue potentially acceptable?  I run into this "We oppose it, so why even discuss it?" attitude far too often in the Church.  What if it turns out that the clergy discussing this matter will all answer the question of discussion with a very firm "NO!" and are only discussing how best to voice this "NO!"?

If this conference is sponsored by Lutherans in Finland who believe practicing homosexual relationships are part of God's will for mankind, it is more than likely they are in agreement with any speakers who have been asked to join their meeting. In other words, they are not going to want to hear any words of dissent on what they believe to be true.

Anyway, time will tell. It will be interesting to see the results of this conference.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: SolEX01 on May 23, 2009, 11:42:24 AM
If a person or church wants to fall into heresy, let them?  Possibly this was not phrased well.  Should our concern not be for our neighbor? 

If our neighbor refuses to listen, we can't force them.  Look at Pharaoh and Moses or even Arius and the Council of Nicaea.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 23, 2009, 05:20:58 PM
If a person or church wants to fall into heresy, let them?  Possibly this was not phrased well.  Should our concern not be for our neighbor? 

If our neighbor refuses to listen, we can't force them.  Look at Pharaoh and Moses or even Arius and the Council of Nicaea.
About all we can do is break off communion with heretics.  I think churches have tried the idea of persecuting heretics with the idea of forcing them to recant.  Much good that did. ::)
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Aristobolus on May 23, 2009, 11:54:09 PM
If a person or church wants to fall into heresy, let them?  Possibly this was not phrased well.  Should our concern not be for our neighbor? 

If our neighbor refuses to listen, we can't force them.  Look at Pharaoh and Moses or even Arius and the Council of Nicaea.
About all we can do is break off communion with heretics.  I think churches have tried the idea of persecuting heretics with the idea of forcing them to recant.  Much good that did. ::)

Very well said.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: CRCulver on May 24, 2009, 10:05:30 AM
About all we can do is break off communion with heretics.  I think churches have tried the idea of persecuting heretics with the idea of forcing them to recant.  Much good that did. ::)

It does pretty well. Perhaps the heretics don't recant, but persecution does limit their ability to spread their heresies. Look at how Russia, for example, has succeeded fairly well with resisting the onslaught of American Protestant missionaries compared to, say, Romania.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: SolEX01 on May 24, 2009, 08:03:43 PM
We can pray for the Church of Finland to not fall into heresy.  That is all the lay can do.   :(
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Robert W on May 25, 2009, 08:59:26 AM
 :'(

This discussion is so soul destroying that my English is lacking in describing it.

I have found an article (actually two articles) that would be of interest to anyone seriously interested in what is going on in Finland.

http://www.aamunkoitto.fi/pages/keskustelua.php

I was going to translate it, but now that I have read the recent posts on this thread I don't have the energy to do so anymore.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: CRCulver on May 25, 2009, 09:32:00 AM
:'(

This discussion is so soul destroying that my English is lacking in describing it.

I have found an article (actually two articles) that would be of interest to anyone seriously interested in what is going on in Finland.

http://www.aamunkoitto.fi/pages/keskustelua.php

I was going to translate it, but now that I have read the recent posts on this thread I don't have the energy to do so anymore.

I'm completely aghast that this was published in an official Finnish Orthodox forum. It's like being in a collapsing ECUSA all over again. I'll try to do an English translation later tonight.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Robert W on May 25, 2009, 09:44:18 AM
Thank you CRCulver for taking the time to do "my job".

For anyone that knows Finnish, I can bring to attention a blog post by bishop Arseni of Joensuu (auxiliary bishop to the archbishop).

http://ortodoksi.net/ortodoksi/blogi/arseni/2008/11/18/kaksi-kirjaa/
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Aristobolus on May 25, 2009, 12:54:24 PM
About all we can do is break off communion with heretics.  I think churches have tried the idea of persecuting heretics with the idea of forcing them to recant.  Much good that did. ::)

It does pretty well. Perhaps the heretics don't recant, but persecution does limit their ability to spread their heresies. Look at how Russia, for example, has succeeded fairly well with resisting the onslaught of American Protestant missionaries compared to, say, Romania.
Also very well said.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 25, 2009, 01:05:14 PM
About all we can do is break off communion with heretics.  I think churches have tried the idea of persecuting heretics with the idea of forcing them to recant.  Much good that did. ::)

It does pretty well. Perhaps the heretics don't recant, but persecution does limit their ability to spread their heresies. Look at how Russia, for example, has succeeded fairly well with resisting the onslaught of American Protestant missionaries compared to, say, Romania.
Depends on how you define persecution.  I was thinking of it more in terms of the Spanish Inquisition, the heresy trials, and the mass murder of heretics that have been carried out by various churches in the name of the Church.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Starlight on May 25, 2009, 02:01:57 PM
:'(

This discussion is so soul destroying that my English is lacking in describing it.

I have found an article (actually two articles) that would be of interest to anyone seriously interested in what is going on in Finland.

http://www.aamunkoitto.fi/pages/keskustelua.php

I was going to translate it, but now that I have read the recent posts on this thread I don't have the energy to do so anymore.

I'm completely aghast that this was published in an official Finnish Orthodox forum. It's like being in a collapsing ECUSA all over again. I'll try to do an English translation later tonight.


May I ask you - has it been presented as an official position of the Finnish Orthodox Church in the aforementioned forum? Or could it be just another opinion, published in a forum?
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: CRCulver on May 25, 2009, 04:02:00 PM
Here's the first letter from the oh-so-appropriately titled "Dialogue" section of Aamun Koitto. Robert W., please correct any mistakes you find, as I'm nowhere close to a native speaker of Finnish.

In the darkness of values

Hannu Pöyhönen has written a book called Homosexuality in the Light of Orthodox Tradition

In Pöyhönen's thought, an opinion is stressed that homosexual drives are a quite exceptional pleasure and are always lurking in ambush. According to researchers homosexuals are 3–7% of the population and bisexuals around 10–30%, while among the people of the Church sinners make up a firm one hundred percent. Questions from churchgoers to administration on homosexual relationships raise the challenge of tolerance and respect for human rights in these binding ties.

It's dangerous if the teaching of the church is expressed by fragments especially chosen to mislead. What ought one to think about the tale Pöyhönen has borrowed about a "person", where his blessing is requested when "a young man in his teens, who felt a strong attraction to other young men" ..."got trapped under a car and died"?

The American Westboro Baptist Church teaches that God is angry at Finland, because its government has approxed homosexual partnerships. Is the same message of love to be taught in the popular courses at Valamo?

I am concerned about our neighbours, who think that Pöyhönen's little book reflects Orthodox tradition other than darker shadows.

I ask the clergy to discern with wisdom and strength and cure the superstition of parishioners or wounds inflected while in the grip of fear.

-- Janne Huttunen
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Robert W on May 26, 2009, 02:44:10 AM
Thanks again CRCulver for the translation. I cannot find any flaws with it myself, but then my again mothers tongue isn't Finnish either.

Interestlingly Mr. Janne Huttunen does (perhaps by mistake?) call homosexuality "sin" with his comparison of procentiles.

May I ask you - has it been presented as an official position of the Finnish Orthodox Church in the aforementioned forum? Or could it be just another opinion, published in a forum?
There is a part of the website of the newpaper aamun koitto that is labelled keskustelu (discussion). It is there that two short text by different authors are presented.

The "discussion" is about a small book, that takes a traditional standpoint, published by doctor of theology Hannu Pöyhynen.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: Starlight on May 26, 2009, 10:17:13 PM
Dear CRCulver and Robert W,
Thank you very much for your translation and explanation.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: theoforos on May 29, 2009, 10:25:00 AM
While Theoprovlitos' rhetoric may occasionally be over the top, it is not his imagination that the Finnish Orthodox Church is moving to embrace homosexual relationships. Spend a few weeks participating in church life in Helsinki's Uspensky Cathedral, or read the introductions to the Church written by clergy in the Finnish national press, and this will be very obvious to you.

I've been going to the Uspensky cathedral for years (normally at least once a week), and I don't know what you are talking about...
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: PoorFoolNicholas on May 29, 2009, 10:35:00 AM
I've been going to the Uspensky cathedral for years (normally at least once a week), and I don't know what you are talking about...
You mean that this is all just hogwash!!!! Never!  ::)
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: theoforos on May 29, 2009, 10:39:58 AM
For my part, even more disturbing than the increasing tolerance of homosexual relationships, which is not yet fully implemented, is the Church of Finland's open communion. Every Sunday in Uspensky you can see tourists going up and being given the Eucharist, some of whom aren't even Christian (I spoke to one such tourist once after the service, who turned out to be happily Hindu). Isn't the Lord's Body and Blood to be guarded with severity?

Then you have a problem with the Church of Finland commissioning liturgical music from non-Orthodox (or even non-Christians).

Again, I just can't wait to get out of here and spend all my time in a Church that seems in tune with world Orthodoxy.

Well, during all these years, I remember one occasion when some Asian looking people joined the communion line. I was horrified (although I knew there was a slight possibility that they were Japanese Orthodox), but fortunately someone (a lay person) went up to them, and after a short conversation they quit the line. However, the way communion is distributed does have some risks. If you know how to behave, and don't look too touristy, you most likely won't be asked any questions, and the priests assume you are Orthodox. There is no chance the priests would be able to know everyone, so the only way to avoid this problem would be to introduce some kind of an Orthodox ID you had to show to the priest when approaching the chalice. The other option would be to expel any non-Orthodox from the church at the beginning of the Liturgy of the Faithful, but then again there would have to be some kind of an ID to be able to find out who is Orthodox and who is not. I know about one obstinate Lutheran who thinks he has the right to get communion wherever he feels like it who was able to get communion there, but I don't really think it is such a big problem. Usually they say just before the pre-communion prayer that the communion is only for the Orthodox, and normally the non-Orthodox visitors respect that.
 
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: theoforos on May 29, 2009, 10:49:05 AM
I've been going to the Uspensky cathedral for years (normally at least once a week), and I don't know what you are talking about...
You mean that this is all just hogwash!!!! Never!  ::)

I wasn't talking about the gay issue as such, only about the Uspensky cathedral. I haven't noticed any gay activity in the Uspensky cathedral, but I know there are certain things going on in the Orthodox church of Finland, and much of what has been said here is true, although I must admit I feel it is highly exaggerated. It's not quite as bad here as it has been made to look like. Anyway, I'm happy about the international attention. Most Finnish Orthodox know very little about what Orthodoxy outside of Finland is like, which makes them easy targets for any kind of propaganda. I hope the international attention will gradually make people realize that the Orthodox church is one, and it cannot be changed by a small group of "reformers". 
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: theoforos on May 29, 2009, 10:55:28 AM
I know about one obstinate Lutheran who thinks he has the right to get communion wherever he feels like it who was able to get communion there, but I don't really think it is such a big problem. Usually they say just before the pre-communion prayer that the communion is only for the Orthodox, and normally the non-Orthodox visitors respect that.

I think I have to clarify that one. Of course I didn't mean to say it's not such a big problem if a Lutheran receives Orthodox communion, because it of course is a huge problem, and should never happen. What I was trying to say was that I don't think it happens often. I know other Lutherans who like to go to Orthodox services, but they know they are not supposed to receive communion, and they respect that.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: theoforos on May 29, 2009, 11:35:02 AM
Someone also mentioned fasting before communion. I can't find the post now. The normal practice in Finland is to fast (no food or drink) from midnight if the liturgy is in the morning or from noon if the liturgy is in the evening, or from 6 p.m. if the liturgy is part of a longer vigil service, the communion taking place during the early hours of the day, which would mean that the usual practice of fasting from midnight would mean less than 6 hours of fasting (which is the absolute minimum). These are the rules normally followed by anyone who hasn't received blessing from his/her priest to follow some other rules, and I think most people follow the rules, although I can't possible know because it's considered inappropriate to inquire about other people's fasting. I know about some diabetics or people who have to take medicine who don't follow the general fasting guidelines with the blessing of their priest, but I'm quite sure there are people who deliberately break the rules without the blessing of their priest, but I don't have any reason to believe that it is common in Finland not to follow the guidelines about the communion fast. Although my impression is that the communion fast rules are normally followed quite well in Finland, I have enough concrete evidence of Finnish Orthodox not following other fasting rules, e.g. eating dairy products is very common also during the four longer fasts (to the extent that many people don't even seem to be aware of dairy products being off limits during the fasts), and I'm afraid most people don't fast on Wednesdays and Fridays.
Title: Re: Orthodox Bishop of Finland Organizes Ecumenist Gay Conference
Post by: filipinopilgrim on June 06, 2009, 01:39:56 PM
Any updates on the "Gay Conference"?

Have Moscow or Constantinople said anything?
Title: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Heorhij on October 31, 2009, 02:59:10 PM
This thread was split from the following discussion:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,24121.0.html

-YtterbiumAnalyst



You either accept the Church as a whole or you don't.

Are you sure, Maureen?

Christ established ONE Church body; either Orthodoxy is the true Church or it is not. There is no maybe.

Of course. But the views of the Church on matters of ethics and morals DO change. Again, just a couple of centuries ago it was UNTHINKABLE for a person who committed suicide to get an Orthodox burial. And it was a common understanding of everyone in the Church that fathers give their daughters in marriage. And a lot of Fathers wrote and preached that if you are having sex with your spouse without aiming at producing a baby, you are perverted and do abomination. (I can find you quotes.)

And there is nothing in the Nicene-Constantinople Creed about gay marriage. Nor there is much about gay marriage in the Bible.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: John of the North on October 31, 2009, 03:09:00 PM
You either accept the Church as a whole or you don't.

Are you sure, Maureen?

Christ established ONE Church body; either Orthodoxy is the true Church or it is not. There is no maybe.

Of course. But the views of the Church on matters of ethics and morals DO change. Again, just a couple of centuries ago it was UNTHINKABLE for a person who committed suicide to get an Orthodox burial. And it was a common understanding of everyone in the Church that fathers give their daughters in marriage. And a lot of Fathers wrote and preached that if you are having sex with your spouse without aiming at producing a baby, you are perverted and do abomination. (I can find you quotes.)

And there is nothing in the Nicene-Constantinople Creed about gay marriage. Nor there is much about gay marriage in the Bible.

You are confusing economia with belief.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Thankful on October 31, 2009, 03:10:28 PM

In my opinion (and that is all it is... my opinion since I'm not a clergy person nor have authority outside of what an Orthodox lay person may possess), it seems to me that you have established with your statement above, a statement or proposition that seems self-contradictory. You say that you believe the Orthodox Church to be the... Church. But then you turn around and declare what you happen to believe. The issue is this: the Church and the Church alone has the authority to determine right belief, not the individual. When individuals find themselves at odds with Church teaching, then it is vital that they realign their thinking with what the Church teaches and not expect the Church to accommodate them. St Paul tells us that the Church (not the individual) is the pillar and foundation of truth. Thus, if the Church teaches that homosexual union is wrong (and it does), then it is a given that the individual must recognize that his belief, no matter how cherished and heartfelt it might be, is in error.

In short, you cannot come into the Church on your terms. You do not presume to sit in judgment upon the Church. In fact, the Church judges us and not the other way around. I know it's not a particularly popular or politically correct position to voice in this day and age, but the Church is the Truth and has not deviated from that position over two millennium.

I appreciated this post.  It made me think of a question I asked our priest during the inquirer's class this past week.  I asked how a former Protestant with no previous interest in (and in fact probably a negative reaction toward) the Theotokos gets over this resistance.  I was probably looking for something to think about, some Scriptures to look at (again), something that would change the way I thought.

His simple answer was, "Repent." There's nothing to figure out, and nothing to reconcile.  Just repent of an incorrect belief and submit to what the church teaches.  So to me that means just start honoring her, start bowing and crossing at the appropriate time in prayers, start including "Most holy Theotokos save us" in my prayers, etc.  

So in relation to the original question (about homosexuality) and this reply, perhaps it's the same thing?  If the church teaches homosexuality is wrong, perhaps we just need to get in line with that instead of trying to reason out why the church might be wrong.  This is just my thought, and forgive me if I'm speaking where I ought not.  
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Thankful on October 31, 2009, 03:13:43 PM
I can only think of maybe five non-Athonite monasteries that encourage non-Orthodox to leave at the dismissal of the catechumen. Even many Athonite monasteries in the US, Canada, Greece and Western Europe don't encourage it. Can't think of one monastery out of the dozens that I went to in Romania where it is practiced. Point being, it's rare, even at monasteries.

I am very new to Orthodoxy and have been a catechumen since August.  I've been to two monasteries in my life, both in my home state within the last few months, and at both of these catechumens were expected to either leave the church (at one), or step to the back part of the church (at the other), once the portion of the service leading to the Eucharist began. 
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: witega on October 31, 2009, 03:16:18 PM
I have wondered about this before. Without wanting someone to profess false belief, or to exert some kind of mental censorship on his or her own beliefs, how is a person who believes that the Orthodox Church is Truth but does not believe in one of her doctrines meant to proceed? It's all very well to say that a person must submit to the Church's teaching. And I accept that submission is possible when it applies to negative aspects (don't get into a homosexual relationship, for example), but how is it possible to force yourself into believing something you don't hold true?

Sinner Servant has given the succint response. There is a significant element of will in belief. If there wasn't, St. Paul wouldn't praise Faith and Hope as two of the highest virtues. One can have default 'beliefs', where the mind falls without any exertion, generally set up by one's environment (parents, school, culture--accepting or rejecting). However, these are really closer to suppositions or simple knowledge until and unless the will is engaged to defend them--or reject them. So, if it is the decision of the will to believe *and* follow God, then as a corollary, the will must also embrace the idea that 'God knows better', and submit itself  to believe even where it doesn't understand/agree.

That said, I agree with the early respondents that the OP needs to be taking this up with a real priest in a pastoral setting. There are some items that are absolutes that one must accept to join the Church (the existence of God, the Creed, etc), but there are other things where the Church is generally content to present its position and allow the Christian to grow into an understanding and acceptance of that position. That is, in fact, one point of the catachumenate, but the process continues after baptism as well.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: SolEX01 on October 31, 2009, 03:20:14 PM
Feanor, welcome to the forum.   :)
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Heorhij on October 31, 2009, 04:22:48 PM
It's all very well to say that a person must submit to the Church's teaching. And I accept that submission is possible when it applies to negative aspects (don't get into a homosexual relationship, for example), but how is it possible to force yourself into believing something you don't hold true?

Pray... "with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief." (Mark 9:24)



And while at that, convince others around you in YOUR belief if you really hold it true and if it does not go blatantly against the DOCTRINE of the Church as expressed in the Creed and decisions of the Seven Ecumenical Councils.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Heorhij on October 31, 2009, 04:22:49 PM
You either accept the Church as a whole or you don't.

Are you sure, Maureen?

Christ established ONE Church body; either Orthodoxy is the true Church or it is not. There is no maybe.

Of course. But the views of the Church on matters of ethics and morals DO change. Again, just a couple of centuries ago it was UNTHINKABLE for a person who committed suicide to get an Orthodox burial. And it was a common understanding of everyone in the Church that fathers give their daughters in marriage. And a lot of Fathers wrote and preached that if you are having sex with your spouse without aiming at producing a baby, you are perverted and do abomination. (I can find you quotes.)

And there is nothing in the Nicene-Constantinople Creed about gay marriage. Nor there is much about gay marriage in the Bible.

You are confusing economia with belief.

I don't know whether I do.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Heorhij on October 31, 2009, 04:22:49 PM
That said, I agree with the early respondents that the OP needs to be taking this up with a real priest in a pastoral setting. There are some items that are absolutes that one must accept to join the Church (the existence of God, the Creed, etc), but there are other things where the Church is generally content to present its position and allow the Christian to grow into an understanding and acceptance of that position. That is, in fact, one point of the catachumenate, but the process continues after baptism as well.

Very well put. Thank you, Witega.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Feanor on October 31, 2009, 04:32:34 PM
Thank you all for the helpful and informative posts.

Unfortunately I don't think anything is as simple or black-and-white as 'you either believe that the Church teaches TRUTH or NOT.'
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Liz on October 31, 2009, 04:36:44 PM
I have wondered about this before. Without wanting someone to profess false belief, or to exert some kind of mental censorship on his or her own beliefs, how is a person who believes that the Orthodox Church is Truth but does not believe in one of her doctrines meant to proceed? It's all very well to say that a person must submit to the Church's teaching. And I accept that submission is possible when it applies to negative aspects (don't get into a homosexual relationship, for example), but how is it possible to force yourself into believing something you don't hold true?

Sinner Servant has given the succint response. There is a significant element of will in belief. If there wasn't, St. Paul wouldn't praise Faith and Hope as two of the highest virtues. One can have default 'beliefs', where the mind falls without any exertion, generally set up by one's environment (parents, school, culture--accepting or rejecting). However, these are really closer to suppositions or simple knowledge until and unless the will is engaged to defend them--or reject them. So, if it is the decision of the will to believe *and* follow God, then as a corollary, the will must also embrace the idea that 'God knows better', and submit itself  to believe even where it doesn't understand/agree.

That said, I agree with the early respondents that the OP needs to be taking this up with a real priest in a pastoral setting. There are some items that are absolutes that one must accept to join the Church (the existence of God, the Creed, etc), but there are other things where the Church is generally content to present its position and allow the Christian to grow into an understanding and acceptance of that position. That is, in fact, one point of the catachumenate, but the process continues after baptism as well.

I understand that one must often say (and devoutly hope) that 'God knows better'. And you can strongly discipline yourself to try your hardest to examine your beliefs. But I do not understand how anyone can brainwash themselves into believing something they do not.

There are those things in faith that we accept knowing we cannot understand them, knowing that they simply cannot be completely comprehended by our reason. Then there are those things that are to do with morality, which are not inherently irrational. We are taught that it is wrong to murder; we (I hope!) accept this as something that is not only doctrine, but also something we can rationally and intuitively agree with. We are also taught, when someone we love dies or something terrible happens, that we do not and cannot let our own natural, sorrowful reactions outweigh our faith that God acts for the best.

But here, we are really being asked to accept the limitations of our own knowledge. That's easy. What I do not think is possible, is to truly eradicate a belief in one thing from your mind and replace it with the opposite. You might do it over time, by reason, but you can't just will it to happen.

Can anyone explain?
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Michael L on October 31, 2009, 05:21:27 PM
Thank you all for the helpful and informative posts.

Unfortunately I don't think anything is as simple or black-and-white as 'you either believe that the Church teaches TRUTH or NOT.'

Feanor,

Truth is BLACK and WHITE. There is no partial truth when it comes to Christ. The Church is Christ and and Christ is "the way, the truth, and the life." (John 14:6) The only thing gray is our morallity if it is based upon relativism and secular modernism, which is a huge issue of today and a stumbling block for many. Archbishop Hilrion discussed this several years back see: http://en.hilarion.orthodoxia.org/6_1  (http://en.hilarion.orthodoxia.org/6_1).

With that said, I don't want to come across as though there is no room for freedom of thought within the Orthodox Church, especially in matter undefined by the Church, but our opinions should not go against Church Doctrine. Fr. Sergius Bulgakov wrote an interesting article on Freedom of Thought in the Orthodox Church: http://www.pravmir.com/article_457.html (http://www.pravmir.com/article_457.html).
 

May God bless you on your journey.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Liz on October 31, 2009, 05:31:18 PM
Thank you all for the helpful and informative posts.

Unfortunately I don't think anything is as simple or black-and-white as 'you either believe that the Church teaches TRUTH or NOT.'

Feanor,

Truth is BLACK and WHITE. There is no partial truth when it comes to Christ. The Church is Christ and and Christ is "the way, the truth, and the life." (John 14:6) The only thing gray is our morallity if it is based upon relativism and secular modernism, which is a huge issue of today and a stumbling block for many. Archbishop Hilrion discussed this several years back see: http://en.hilarion.orthodoxia.org/6_1  (http://en.hilarion.orthodoxia.org/6_1).

With that said, I don't want to come across as though there is no room for freedom of thought within the Orthodox Church, especially in matter undefined by the Church, but our opinions should not go against Church Doctrine. Fr. Sergius Bulgakov wrote an interesting article on Freedom of Thought in the Orthodox Church: http://www.pravmir.com/article_457.html (http://www.pravmir.com/article_457.html).
 

May God bless you on your journey.

There is indeed no partial truth when it comes to Christ. But our perception is clouded. How are we to approach this problem in practical terms, that is the question. Are we culpable if we strive to understand, but fail? Surely not.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: ozgeorge on October 31, 2009, 05:33:10 PM
Feanor,
I just wanted to say "told ya so" :D!
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Michael L on October 31, 2009, 05:35:47 PM
But our perception is clouded.

Thus, we rely on the teachings of the Church!
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Entscheidungsproblem on October 31, 2009, 05:37:01 PM
Feanor,
I just wanted to say "told ya so" :D!

:laugh:!  These threads always play out the same way eh?
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Heorhij on October 31, 2009, 05:42:24 PM
Thank you all for the helpful and informative posts.

Unfortunately I don't think anything is as simple or black-and-white as 'you either believe that the Church teaches TRUTH or NOT.'

That's what I've been trying to say. But again, Feanor, being who I am (which some people evaluate as rebellious, un-disciplined or even "weak, stumbling and confused in faith") - I know that I AM an Orthodox Christian and I will always be one. The same applies to you, or, rather, will apply to you when you are received in the Church. The Church consists of people like us; we ARE the Church. Just because you and I may have certain thoughts about homosexual love etc., cannot possibly put us outside of the Church. Other things can - for example, if we preach that there is no God, or that Christ is not God or not man, or that there is no such thing as resurrection of the dead and the life everlasting. As far as I understand, propagating views like those will automatically put us outside of the Church and in this case, our priests will not be able to give us the Eucharist. However, just thinking, and forming and even openly discussing our opinions/beliefs about various issues (which are outside of the matters explicitly evaluated by the Councils and reflected in the Creed) cannot put us outside. See Witega's very succint and thoughtful post.

Keep us posted! You are in my unworthy prayers. I do look forward for the day when you will be received into the Church.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Heorhij on October 31, 2009, 05:42:25 PM
Truth is BLACK and WHITE.

Like the "truth" that he who takes his own life must be buried outside of the cemetary gate without any service done by the Orthodox priest? That was the "truth," which gazillions of Orthodox thought to be "black" and not "white" or "white" and not "black," for centuries.

our opinions should not go against Church Doctrine.

Which is.........?
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Liz on October 31, 2009, 06:02:55 PM
But our perception is clouded.

Thus, we rely on the teachings of the Church!

Oh dear, I think we're going in circles! I guess there's some good both in the kind of faith that is very comforting and has an answer for everything, and in the faith that is constantly worrying about how to get closer to God. Well ... I hope so, anyway.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Heorhij on October 31, 2009, 06:37:11 PM
But our perception is clouded.

Thus, we rely on the teachings of the Church!

But the Church is US, you and me...
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: witega on October 31, 2009, 07:11:24 PM
I understand that one must often say (and devoutly hope) that 'God knows better'. And you can strongly discipline yourself to try your hardest to examine your beliefs. But I do not understand how anyone can brainwash themselves into believing something they do not.

There are those things in faith that we accept knowing we cannot understand them, knowing that they simply cannot be completely comprehended by our reason. Then there are those things that are to do with morality, which are not inherently irrational. We are taught that it is wrong to murder; we (I hope!) accept this as something that is not only doctrine, but also something we can rationally and intuitively agree with. We are also taught, when someone we love dies or something terrible happens, that we do not and cannot let our own natural, sorrowful reactions outweigh our faith that God acts for the best.

But here, we are really being asked to accept the limitations of our own knowledge. That's easy. What I do not think is possible, is to truly eradicate a belief in one thing from your mind and replace it with the opposite. You might do it over time, by reason, but you can't just will it to happen.

I think the division you are making is somewhat artificial. Yes, there are things we will never understand (because of our limited, creaturely nature) and things we can, at least in theory, understand and its important to recognize when things fall into the first category. At the same time, it is the teaching of the Church that human nature is fallen and broken. Our will and our desires our corrupt, such that we desire things that are not good for us, and even when we desire to do good, our will is overcome by other desires and we do wrong. But a further consequence of the Fall, which is not as generally recognized, is that our intellect is also fallen and corrupt. We think things are a good idea when they are not. We think things make sense when they do not. There are human societies (fewer now, but their existence is well documented) where cannibalism or human sacrifice were considered completely rational and moral behaviors.

We look at a society like the Aztecs and are appalled. But based on what they knew, and the entire complex of beliefs and presuppositions their society had built up over time, the sacrifice of thousands of people was a perfectly rational behavior. We are not immune to this. If one does not believe the fetus is an actual human being, it makes sense (or is at the least reasonably arguable) to prioritize the rights of the woman over her body over the potential of any particular clot of cells inside her. Our societies come with their own inbuilt assumptions, mistaken perceptions, and biases which make what is 'perfectly obvious and reasonable belief' to you, decidedly questionable to me.

Thus submission to God (through the Church) involves a submission of not only the will but also of the intellect. I don't mean you turn off the intellect. But it does mean you do not presume that your intellect, your logical conclusions, your 'reasonable' beliefs, are superior (or even necessarily equal) to the intellect, logical conclusions and reasonable beliefs that the Holy Fathers and Mothers which preceded us where led into by the Holy Spirit.

I did not, btw, mean to imply that one can simply will the eradication of a belief. However, one can will to work towards that. One can by will, decide that one is simply not going to actively push back against the Church. One can pray for guidance--instead of praying that others see your point or that you are given the words to convince them, pray that you can be led to an understanding. One can repent (I though Thoughtful's priest was very wise).



Or, just to use a completely separate example: We know that you are in a long-term, committed relationship. This may well have already happened. If it hasn't, then I can guarantee you it will. At some point, you are going to have to decide that you believe your significant other, or you don't. That decision may be influenced by what has happened in the past, by the specific circumstances, etc. But in the end, that faith and trust will be a *decision* made by your will in the absence of enough information for it to be made simply by your intellect.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Liz on October 31, 2009, 07:21:02 PM

Thus submission to God (through the Church) involves a submission of not only the will but also of the intellect. I don't mean you turn off the intellect. But it does mean you do not presume that your intellect, your logical conclusions, your 'reasonable' beliefs, are superior (or even necessarily equal) to the intellect, logical conclusions and reasonable beliefs that the Holy Fathers and Mothers which preceded us where led into by the Holy Spirit.

I did not, btw, mean to imply that one can simply will the eradication of a belief. However, one can will to work towards that. One can by will, decide that one is simply not going to actively push back against the Church. One can pray for guidance--instead of praying that others see your point or that you are given the words to convince them, pray that you can be led to an understanding. One can repent (I though Thoughtful's priest was very wise).



Or, just to use a completely separate example: We know that you are in a long-term, committed relationship. This may well have already happened. If it hasn't, then I can guarantee you it will. At some point, you are going to have to decide that you believe your significant other, or you don't. That decision may be influenced by what has happened in the past, by the specific circumstances, etc. But in the end, that faith and trust will be a *decision* made by your will in the absence of enough information for it to be made simply by your intellect.

Thanks for replying, what you say is useful. I've quoted only some of it, just because threads get so long if we always quote everything. The point you make about the intellect is very good. But what I am asking is, how do we do this? So I am glad to find you saying that this is a matter for prayer. I pray, for example, that my own Communion will come to a better agreement amongst her members. I don't know how this will happen - and it may be that my own cherished views will be on the losing side - but I nevertheless pray for it.

Can I ask you to explain what you meant about my relationship? I didn't quite understand that and I'd like to know what you were saying.

God bless,

Liz
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: ozgeorge on October 31, 2009, 07:38:34 PM
Apokatastasis is a heresy condemned by the Church on the 5th Ecumenical Council.
There is some dispute about this:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.viii.html
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: ialmisry on October 31, 2009, 10:25:07 PM
IMHO, we need to love sinners and remember that we too are sinners, but let's not accept their sins.

As far as you becoming an Orthodox Christian. The Church is the One, Holy, and Catholic----Catholic meaning Universal and accpeting all who will accept Her.

However, you either believe that the the Church teaches TRUTH or NOT. We may not understand and agree with what the Church teaches, but if we believe it is TRUTH, then we must submit ourselves to those teachings and remember even the Apostle Peter was rebuked for not understanding Christ's mission and teachings, "Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. (Matthew 16:23)"

The Orthodox Church is not one of the thousands of Protestant denominations or a social club that we join membership in solely because it makes us fell happy, or because we enjoyed glittering censors, incense and beautiful vestments. No, Orthodoxy is not a set of doctrines and otherworldly services, Orthodoxy is life itself and it is something that is lived. When we are baptised and brought into the Church Militant we die to ourselves and live in Christ and "And He (Christ) is the of the body, the church (Col.1:18)." Alas, we must believe the Church as all TRUTH becuase the Church is Christ and we must follow Christ and his Church as commanded, "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself (and his will), and take up his cross, and follow me. (Matthew 16:24)"

I have wondered about this before. Without wanting someone to profess false belief, or to exert some kind of mental censorship on his or her own beliefs, how is a person who believes that the Orthodox Church is Truth but does not believe in one of her doctrines meant to proceed? It's all very well to say that a person must submit to the Church's teaching. And I accept that submission is possible when it applies to negative aspects (don't get into a homosexual relationship, for example), but how is it possible to force yourself into believing something you don't hold true?

When I converted I didn't believe in the Assumption of Mary, but went along anyway because it wasn't dogma.  It wasn't until I was in the Church that it made sense.  Certain things are not expressed in the rite of convertion, perhaps because until you are in the Church, there is no reason to go into them.

It's all very well to say that a person must submit to the Church's teaching. And I accept that submission is possible when it applies to negative aspects (don't get into a homosexual relationship, for example), but how is it possible to force yourself into believing something you don't hold true?

Pray... "with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief." (Mark 9:24)



Yeah, like that.


In my opinion (and that is all it is... my opinion since I'm not a clergy person nor have authority outside of what an Orthodox lay person may possess), it seems to me that you have established with your statement above, a statement or proposition that seems self-contradictory. You say that you believe the Orthodox Church to be the... Church. But then you turn around and declare what you happen to believe. The issue is this: the Church and the Church alone has the authority to determine right belief, not the individual. When individuals find themselves at odds with Church teaching, then it is vital that they realign their thinking with what the Church teaches and not expect the Church to accommodate them. St Paul tells us that the Church (not the individual) is the pillar and foundation of truth. Thus, if the Church teaches that homosexual union is wrong (and it does), then it is a given that the individual must recognize that his belief, no matter how cherished and heartfelt it might be, is in error.

In short, you cannot come into the Church on your terms. You do not presume to sit in judgment upon the Church. In fact, the Church judges us and not the other way around. I know it's not a particularly popular or politically correct position to voice in this day and age, but the Church is the Truth and has not deviated from that position over two millennium.

I appreciated this post.  It made me think of a question I asked our priest during the inquirer's class this past week.  I asked how a former Protestant with no previous interest in (and in fact probably a negative reaction toward) the Theotokos gets over this resistance.  I was probably looking for something to think about, some Scriptures to look at (again), something that would change the way I thought.

His simple answer was, "Repent." There's nothing to figure out, and nothing to reconcile.  Just repent of an incorrect belief and submit to what the church teaches.  So to me that means just start honoring her, start bowing and crossing at the appropriate time in prayers, start including "Most holy Theotokos save us" in my prayers, etc.

I can only attest that even less worked for me. Getting into the life of the Church, it only made sense after a while.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: ialmisry on October 31, 2009, 10:27:07 PM
You either accept the Church as a whole or you don't.

Are you sure, Maureen?

Christ established ONE Church body; either Orthodoxy is the true Church or it is not. There is no maybe.

Of course. But the views of the Church on matters of ethics and morals DO change. Again, just a couple of centuries ago it was UNTHINKABLE for a person who committed suicide to get an Orthodox burial. And it was a common understanding of everyone in the Church that fathers give their daughters in marriage. And a lot of Fathers wrote and preached that if you are having sex with your spouse without aiming at producing a baby, you are perverted and do abomination. (I can find you quotes.)

And there is nothing in the Nicene-Constantinople Creed about gay marriage. Nor there is much about gay marriage in the Bible.

LOL. I'd say there is nothing in the Bible about gay marriage, but lots on gay sex.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Clancy Boy on October 31, 2009, 10:57:13 PM
Thank you all for the helpful and informative posts.

Unfortunately I don't think anything is as simple or black-and-white as 'you either believe that the Church teaches TRUTH or NOT.'

No, it's as simple as 'you believe what the church teaches because it is truth.' 
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Gebre Menfes Kidus on October 31, 2009, 11:04:23 PM
Coming into Orthodoxy means humbling ourselves before infinite truths, even if those truths offend our own reasoning or our own subjective interpretations of God or the Bible.

I like women. I feel that it is almost impossible not to desire other attractive women that are not my wife. My own experiences, feelings, and reasoning would lead me to believe that if God exists, then He wouldn't create me with these sensual desires and subsequently ask me to forsake them. To do so would seem cruel and even sadistic.

But I am not God, and I dare not try to reduce Almighty God to the idol of my own mortal understanding. All the problems in the world ultimately stem from people living according to their own ideas rather than uniting in conformity to the teachings and Tradition of Christ and His Church.

No convert to Orthodoxy accepts everything the Church teaches with ease. But we prostrate our whole selves before Infinite Mystery, and defer to the Divine. And in this, there is the greatest liberation.

Peace to you my friend.

Selam
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on November 01, 2009, 12:13:32 AM
And I accept that submission is possible when it applies to negative aspects (don't get into a homosexual relationship, for example), but how is it possible to force yourself into believing something you don't hold true?

I do it.  I find the ever-virginity of the Theotokos difficult to swallow on historical and scriptural grounds, but I force myself to believe it because it is dogma.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: ms.hoorah on November 01, 2009, 01:39:31 AM
I have wondered about this before. Without wanting someone to profess false belief, or to exert some kind of mental censorship on his or her own beliefs, how is a person who believes that the Orthodox Church is Truth but does not believe in one of her doctrines meant to proceed? It's all very well to say that a person must submit to the Church's teaching. And I accept that submission is possible when it applies to negative aspects (don't get into a homosexual relationship, for example), but how is it possible to force yourself into believing something you don't hold true?
If one values Jesus and His Saints' great spiritual wisdom/holiness and understands that they believed in the Church's truths, one will more easily accept the Church's beliefs.  (I cannot comprehend nanochemisty technology, but I believe in the concept because there are brilliant scientists, who are devoting their entire reputations/careers, to this technology.)
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Feanor on November 01, 2009, 02:29:10 AM
I just came back from my first experience at an Orthodox church.

It was an Antiochian Orthodox Church. I arrived as they were beginning the Matins, an hour before the Divine Liturgy. The church was beautiful: the walls covered in colourful icons, elegant gold Arabic script above each painting and on the walls, stained glass windows, and candles everywhere. In the corner a small group of people in black robes stood around a 4ft-high marble pillar/table upon which there were several professional-quality microphones, chanting in a mixture of Arabic and English. Research had told me to expect no seats - that Orthodox worship was carried out while standing, and that people moved around the room and worshipped personally throughout the whole service. This wasn't the case at this church - there were rows of pews. When I entered there was no immediate response from anyone, which calmed me considerably - I had been expecting 'go away, you're too early,' or 'what are you doing here?' in the back of my mind, so it was a relief that I wasn't immediately chased out for not being an Arab.

I took a seat in one of the pews towards the back of the room. It was my plan to just pray silently until the Liturgy, and then just watch everyone else and follow what they did. I sat in silence for a few minutes before a nun (I later found out that she is a lecturer on Orthodox Theology for the University of Melbourne... wow!) greeted me and asked 'are you an Orthodox Christian?'
I said, 'No, I'm a former Roman Catholic, but very interested in Orthodoxy.' She handed me two booklets, with English on the left page and Arabic on the right. They were scripts for the chanting and prayers for the Matins and Liturgy. She told me to follow the chanting in the booklet, and join in if I wished to. Because the Matins and Liturgy were in both English and Arabic it was very difficult to follow in the book - a few lines would be read in English, and the next few lines in Arabic, changing back-and-forth. I got lost several times. A girl sat next to me and helped me throughout the service by explaining what to do, where we were up to in the booklet, etc.

The Matins and the Liturgy were both incredibly beautiful. The chanting in English and Arabic was beautiful and the smell of incense was a delight. I appreciated the fact that if I wasn't so distracted by trying to follow the chanting in the booklet, I would easily be able to enter into a higher state of consciousness through the atmosphere generated by these sensory wonders. By doing so, I could commune with God and feel his presence. Although it was impossible for me to do so this time, I figure that if I can get used to the format of the Liturgy and things like when to sit down, when to stand, when to recite the Nicene Creed or the Lord's Prayer etc., so that I wont be distracted by trying too hard to follow,  I could utilise this environment for personal meditation with God, in addition to the prayers of the Liturgy.

During the Liturgy everyone sat down, except during Bible readings and some other parts. Some of the parishoners in the pews sung along with the choir, others sat/stood in silence; some reading along with the booklet, others not. People were not conducting private conversations or private prayers, however, as I'd read that they would.

The only hesitation I have about this church is that I feel a bit isolated due to my ethnicity. There are a few converts, who (like all converts) had a genuine interest in spirituality and theology, and I had some great conversations with them afterwards. These include the nun, who was formerly an Anglican presbytera, who now teaches theology professionally and lives in a convent as the Superior. I hear she's the only nun in her convent, though. Perhaps the only Antiochian Orthodox nun in Melbourne, or even Australia, but I'm not sure. There's also a former Pentacostal minister, who is an extremely nice man and very interesting to talk to. When he converted, his family did also, but they are just good kids who participate but aren't interested in studying and discussing spirituality and theology outside of Church. There's also an Asian couple who are in the choir; I didn't talk to them but don't doubt that I will. The rest are Arabs who prefer to converse amongst themselves in Arabic. They are 'cradle Orthodox' who stay after the service to chat amongst their ethnic community, not to discuss theology.

It was an awesome experience, and I'll definately be back next week, and I look forward to becoming part of this community. How long should I wait before I request to be Baptised? Also, how does Baptism occur? - Does it form part of the Sunday service, or is a seperate private service organised for it?
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Entscheidungsproblem on November 01, 2009, 02:36:33 AM
Great to hear that you had such a positive experience!

Whenever you have the chance, I would speak with the Priest privately.  He will get a better sense of you, and you of him.  As you continue your journey, either though private meetings or classes (depends on the parish), your Priest will inform you about entrance into the Orthodox Church.  How, when, etc.  Depending on the jurisdiction, Bishop, Priest, and your personal spiritual state, the Catechumante can last from multiple months to multiple years.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Asteriktos on November 01, 2009, 04:19:51 AM
Quote
It was an awesome experience, and I'll definately be back next week, and I look forward to becoming part of this community. How long should I wait before I request to be Baptised? Also, how does Baptism occur? - Does it form part of the Sunday service, or is a seperate private service organised for it?

As Nebelpfade mentioned, the length of your catechumenate will depend on various factors. I've heard of everything from a couple months to a few years. My own time as a catechumen was about five months. Regarding being received, I've seen a number of different practices. I seem to remember a baptism on a Saturday, and I also was Chrismated on a Saturday to be brought into the Church. On the other hand, both my infant daughters were brought into the Orthodox Church on a Sunday after Liturgy.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Jetavan on November 01, 2009, 09:40:45 AM
Furthermore, I believe strongly in the infinity of God’s love, and that it is impossible for God to abandon any soul, no matter how wicked or faithless, for all eternity. I believe that through God’s love all beings shall eventually repent and reconcile and all creation shall one day exist in perfect harmony. Of course, there will be punishment, justice, etc, as part of a long spiritual journey that transcends mortal life, but it will all eventually lead to an incredible harmony for all creation. I believe this is called apocatostasis.
No, that's technically not apokatastasis. That's generic universalism. Apokatastasis is a specific type of universal salvation.

Even if we assume that Origen's apokatastasis was condemned at the 5th Ecumenical Council, Origen's apokatastasis was characterized by distinctive ideas, such as that the original state of humans as non-physically embodied spirits existing in communion with God, and the ultimate return of all such spirits back to communion with God. That's a literal "apokatastasis", or "restoration to one's previous condition".

Universalism, however, is simply the belief, or hope, that all will, or may, be saved. Universalism itself is not necessarily a "restoration to one's previous condition"; it might mean entering an even greater state of existence than the one I knew before. I might fall from a sail-boat, and then be saved from drowning by the captain of a yacht, who then lets me live on her yacht for a few days. In such a case, my being saved did not mean I was simply restored to where I was before (on a sailboat); I was actually given an even greater gift (living on a yacht).

Other Christian (http://www.theandros.com/restoration.html#) theologians, besides Origen, have taught some version of Universalism, different in various ways from Origen's distinctive version. Universalism as a hope for the salvation of all, has never, ever been condemned.

Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Heorhij on November 01, 2009, 11:32:22 AM
You either accept the Church as a whole or you don't.

Are you sure, Maureen?

Christ established ONE Church body; either Orthodoxy is the true Church or it is not. There is no maybe.

Of course. But the views of the Church on matters of ethics and morals DO change. Again, just a couple of centuries ago it was UNTHINKABLE for a person who committed suicide to get an Orthodox burial. And it was a common understanding of everyone in the Church that fathers give their daughters in marriage. And a lot of Fathers wrote and preached that if you are having sex with your spouse without aiming at producing a baby, you are perverted and do abomination. (I can find you quotes.)

And there is nothing in the Nicene-Constantinople Creed about gay marriage. Nor there is much about gay marriage in the Bible.

LOL. I'd say there is nothing in the Bible about gay marriage, but lots on gay sex.

Exactly. Similarly there is nothing in the Bible about automobiles, which does not mean that automobiles are evil. In the time when the Biblical canon was compiled, people could not yet have conceived of gay marriage. They saw gay sex outside of what they understood marriage was, and rightly judged it bad. We are different now, AFAIK. Our understanding of human sexuality, gender identity is different. Certainly we have a choice to reject all that and stick to "one man, one woman" paradigm, but is that a good thing to do? Don't we thus spit in the face, humiliate, dehumanize millions and millions of our homosexual brothers and sisters, impose on them something that as few of them can bear (i.e. lifelong chastity) as as few of us heterosexuals can bear?
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: mountainman on November 01, 2009, 12:03:12 PM


where does our different understanding of sexuality come from, and why should it trump the views held by  those in the church who have come before us?  My opinion is that our ideas of gender identity are different, but not in a progressive way but a digressive way.  As a culture, americans and by extension much of the world is "progressively" moving farther and farther away from what is natural to the human nature.  To lose the critical distinctions between the genders would severely undermine the christian faith. 
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Jetavan on November 01, 2009, 12:25:39 PM
Don't we thus spit in the face, humiliate, dehumanize millions and millions of our homosexual brothers and sisters, impose on them something that as few of them can bear (i.e. lifelong chastity) as as few of us heterosexuals can bear?
Uh, life-long chastity is what heterosexual marriage is all about. If you mean "celibacy", then that's a different issue.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Asteriktos on November 01, 2009, 12:31:53 PM
I wasn't sure about that usage of the word either, but when I checked Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary and Dictionary.com I found that it can mean both "refraining from sexual intercourse that is regarded as contrary to morality or religion" and "not engaging in sexual relations".
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Heorhij on November 01, 2009, 12:42:46 PM
Don't we thus spit in the face, humiliate, dehumanize millions and millions of our homosexual brothers and sisters, impose on them something that as few of them can bear (i.e. lifelong chastity) as as few of us heterosexuals can bear?
Uh, life-long chastity is what heterosexual marriage is all about. If you mean "celibacy", then that's a different issue.

Yes, of course, lifelong celibacy. Sorry, English is not my first language.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Heorhij on November 01, 2009, 01:32:07 PM
where does our different understanding of sexuality come from,

Science.

and why should it trump the views held by  those in the church who have come before us?

Not quite "trump" but, rather, complement, extend. The Fathers lived when science as such did not exist. They could not have possibly conceived that there exist things like genes, neurotransmitters, determination of sexuality in the brain, etc. Also, back in the centuries where the currently held views of the Church on marriage were formed, heterosexual mariage was to a very large extent a commercial venture: fathers "owned" their daughters and "gave" them in marriage; daughters had no status of their own, no rights, no property. Men "took" these girls to father children with them - which, again, was a common cultural thing of those times. So marriage was "one man, one woman" deal. Homosexual sex was by necessity (given the cultural and economical considerations) viewed as extramarital and therefore sinful. Not so now: there hardly exists an economical necessity for fathers to "give" their daughters in marriage and for bridegrooms to enter an essential socioeconomical contract by "taking" them; girls and women are now fully human with all the rights to choose whom THEY want or not want to marry; people are not under great economic pressure to fave children who will take care of them when they get old, etc. etc. etc. So, the world moves away from the "one man- one woman" paradigm. Of course, the Church is not "of" this world and is not under any obliogation to obey every single new trend in the world. Yet, including the small minority of people who are really homosexual and who can have lifelong monogamous relationships only with the persons of their own gender would be, I believe, a good, truly LOVING thing to do.

Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Ortho_cat on November 01, 2009, 03:20:09 PM
The scriptures and the Church's interpretation of the scriptures on the issue of homosexual relationships are rather clear, I believe.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Ortho_cat on November 01, 2009, 03:22:59 PM
And I accept that submission is possible when it applies to negative aspects (don't get into a homosexual relationship, for example), but how is it possible to force yourself into believing something you don't hold true?

I do it.  I find the ever-virginity of the Theotokos difficult to swallow on historical and scriptural grounds, but I force myself to believe it because it is dogma.

We should rely on the scriptural interpretation of the Holy Fathers of the Church with regards to this matter. 
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: ialmisry on November 01, 2009, 05:28:04 PM
You either accept the Church as a whole or you don't.

Are you sure, Maureen?

Christ established ONE Church body; either Orthodoxy is the true Church or it is not. There is no maybe.

Of course. But the views of the Church on matters of ethics and morals DO change. Again, just a couple of centuries ago it was UNTHINKABLE for a person who committed suicide to get an Orthodox burial. And it was a common understanding of everyone in the Church that fathers give their daughters in marriage. And a lot of Fathers wrote and preached that if you are having sex with your spouse without aiming at producing a baby, you are perverted and do abomination. (I can find you quotes.)

And there is nothing in the Nicene-Constantinople Creed about gay marriage. Nor there is much about gay marriage in the Bible.

LOL. I'd say there is nothing in the Bible about gay marriage, but lots on gay sex.

Exactly. Similarly there is nothing in the Bible about automobiles, which does not mean that automobiles are evil.

There is lot on chariots and wagons, most of it neutral.  There is nothing neutral on gay sex.  So we can't make organe juice out of this apple.


Quote
In the time when the Biblical canon was compiled, people could not yet have conceived of gay marriage.

If there were of a mind to, they could.  It is not like gay sex was invented in our lifetimes.  It was quite common in Greco-Roman society and in some ways far more accepted.



Quote
They saw gay sex outside of what they understood marriage was, and rightly judged it bad. We are different now, AFAIK.

LOL.  Judging by ancient art, it seems our parts are the same, and they work in the same manner.

Quote
Our understanding of human sexuality, gender identity is different.

Judging by the ancient record, it doesn't seem so.

Quote
Certainly we have a choice to reject all that and stick to "one man, one woman" paradigm, but is that a good thing to do?

Yes.

Quote
Don't we thus spit in the face, humiliate, dehumanize millions and millions of our homosexual brothers and sisters, impose on them something that as few of them can bear (i.e. lifelong chastity) as as few of us heterosexuals can bear?
No.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Liz on November 01, 2009, 06:55:39 PM
You either accept the Church as a whole or you don't.

Are you sure, Maureen?

Christ established ONE Church body; either Orthodoxy is the true Church or it is not. There is no maybe.

Of course. But the views of the Church on matters of ethics and morals DO change. Again, just a couple of centuries ago it was UNTHINKABLE for a person who committed suicide to get an Orthodox burial. And it was a common understanding of everyone in the Church that fathers give their daughters in marriage. And a lot of Fathers wrote and preached that if you are having sex with your spouse without aiming at producing a baby, you are perverted and do abomination. (I can find you quotes.)

And there is nothing in the Nicene-Constantinople Creed about gay marriage. Nor there is much about gay marriage in the Bible.

LOL. I'd say there is nothing in the Bible about gay marriage, but lots on gay sex.

Exactly. Similarly there is nothing in the Bible about automobiles, which does not mean that automobiles are evil.

There is lot on chariots and wagons, most of it neutral.  There is nothing neutral on gay sex.  So we can't make organe juice out of this apple.

This, to me, is crucial. If you wish to read the Bible very literally, or to follow Holy Tradition, there is no away of whitewashing this issue.


Quote
In the time when the Biblical canon was compiled, people could not yet have conceived of gay marriage.

If there were of a mind to, they could.  It is not like gay sex was invented in our lifetimes.  It was quite common in Greco-Roman society and in some ways far more accepted.
[/quote]

Sex and marriage are different, though. Homosexual sex may have been accepted; homosexual marriage not so. The Greco-Roman society might - possibly - have thought that a sacred union between two men for the purposes of monogamous love was ok, but they would hardly have understood why this should preclude heterosexual union and the production of children.



Quote
They saw gay sex outside of what they understood marriage was, and rightly judged it bad. We are different now, AFAIK.

LOL.  Judging by ancient art, it seems our parts are the same, and they work in the same manner.

Quote
Our understanding of human sexuality, gender identity is different.

Judging by the ancient record, it doesn't seem so.
[/quote]

Please, elaborate. My understanding was that gender identity is really quite fluid. For example, it is no longer customary to identify womanhood with slavery, nor with intrinsic evil.



Quote
Certainly we have a choice to reject all that and stick to "one man, one woman" paradigm, but is that a good thing to do?

Yes.

Quote
Don't we thus spit in the face, humiliate, dehumanize millions and millions of our homosexual brothers and sisters, impose on them something that as few of them can bear (i.e. lifelong chastity) as as few of us heterosexuals can bear?
No.
[/quote]
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: ialmisry on November 01, 2009, 07:47:20 PM
Our understanding of human sexuality, gender identity is different.

Judging by the ancient record, it doesn't seem so.

Please, elaborate. My understanding was that gender identity is really quite fluid. For example, it is no longer customary to identify womanhood with slavery, nor with intrinsic evil.

You're going to have to be more specific with whose custom (and when) it was to identify womanhood with slavery and intrinsic evil.


Btw, an example of ancient homosexual "marriage":
XVIII.[44] Shall we then examine your conduct from the time when you were a boy? I think so. Let us begin at the beginning. Do you recollect that, while you were still clad in the praetexta, you became a bankrupt? That was the fault of your father, you will say. I admit that. In truth such a defense is full of filial affection. But it is peculiarly suited to your own audacity, that you sat among the fourteen rows of the knights, though by the Roscian law there was a place appointed for bankrupts, even if any one had become such by the fault of fortune and not by his own. You assumed the manly gown, which your soon made a womanly one: at first a public prostitute, with a regular price for your wickedness, and that not a low one. But very soon Curio stepped in, who carried you off from your public trade, and, as if he had bestowed a matron's robe upon you, settled you in a steady and durable wedlock. [45]  No boy bought for the gratification of passion was ever so wholly in the power of his master as you were in Curio's. How often has his father turned you out of his house? How often has he placed guards to prevent you from entering? while you, with night for your accomplice, lust for your encourager, and wages for your compeller, were let down through the roof. That house could no longer endure your wickedness. Do you not know that I am speaking of matters with which I am thoroughly acquainted? Remember that time when Curio, the father, lay weeping in his bed; his son throwing himself at my feet with tears recommended to me you; he entreated me to defend you against his own father, if he demanded six millions of sesterces of you; for that he had been bail for you to that amount. And he himself, burning with love, declared positively that because he was unable to bear the misery of being separated from you, he should go into banishment. [46]  And at that time what misery of that most flourishing family did I allay, or rather did I remove! I persuaded the father to pay the son's debts; to release the young man, endowed as he was with great promise of courage and ability, by the sacrifice of part of his family estate; and to use his privileges and authority as a father to prohibit him not only from all intimacy with, but from every opportunity of meeting you. When you recollected that all this was done by me, would you have dared to provoke me by abuse if you had not been trusting to those swords which we behold?

THE SECOND SPEECH OF M. T. CICERO AGAINST MARCUS ANTONIUS. CALLED ALSO THE SECOND PHILIPPIC
http://old.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0021&layout=&loc=2.18.45
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Heorhij on November 01, 2009, 07:55:18 PM
The scriptures and the Church's interpretation of the scriptures on the issue of homosexual relationships are rather clear, I believe.

Relationships yes, mariage - no. There is simply no concept of homosexual marriage in Scripture, like there is no concept of biological evolution, electricity, automobiles, airplanes, protons, neutrons, women having rights independently of fathers or husbands, integrals, differentials, other galaxies...
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Heorhij on November 01, 2009, 07:55:18 PM

Quote
They saw gay sex outside of what they understood marriage was, and rightly judged it bad. We are different now, AFAIK.

LOL.  Judging by ancient art, it seems our parts are the same, and they work in the same manner.

No. The point is, ancients had no clue about WHY these "parts" work the way they do. We know it.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on November 01, 2009, 08:02:05 PM
This thread is realyl starting to suck.  Let's jsut forcus on our new poster's exploration into Orthodoxy and leave the arguing over the morality of homosexuality for another thread.  There are plenty of them.

I'm glad you had a good first encounter with the Church.  My advice is to run from this message board, and just ask all of your questions in real life with real people.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Liz on November 01, 2009, 08:09:55 PM
Our understanding of human sexuality, gender identity is different.

Judging by the ancient record, it doesn't seem so.

Please, elaborate. My understanding was that gender identity is really quite fluid. For example, it is no longer customary to identify womanhood with slavery, nor with intrinsic evil.

You're going to have to be more specific with whose custom (and when) it was to identify womanhood with slavery and intrinsic evil.

I was thinking (as usual) of the English medieval period. Women were thought to be weaker and more subject to evil. Women were also considered to be inherently more sinful than men, because (like Eve) they were subject to temptation by the devil. In fact, you can see this in the standard iconography of Genesis, in which the serpent is represented with a woman's face!

However, when I was growing up in the UK, one still heard that women could not be raped by their husbands, the reason being that their bodies and sexuality belonged absolutely to these men, and that therefore their consent or lack of consent could be discounted. The bodies of women belonged to men: this is slavery. Fortunately, we have progressed and a man can no longer claim his absolute right to have sex with his wife: but even now, it is very hard to prosecute such rape cases. The same is true even when women have been coerced into a legal marriage, as still happens.

To go beyond the Christian context, don't Orthodox Jews still make a formal prayer of thanks to God 'for not making me a woman'? It is very, very recently that women have been able to do such things as owning property and even living in a house alone without fear of being accused of criminal activities (for which read, prostitution). My own mother remembers that when she first rented a flat on her own, her father was required to co-sign her agreement: her signature, as a single woman, did not count.

Clearly, our ideas of gender identity change. I for one am thankful that we no longer assume that women are biologically passive in the production of children, or that real men are unable to cry in times of emotion.

Surely, it is not too much to expect that gender identity will change, but that men and women will remain men and women in the eyes of God, complete with their own particular qualities?



Btw, an example of ancient homosexual "marriage":
XVIII.[44] Shall we then examine your conduct from the time when you were a boy? I think so. Let us begin at the beginning. Do you recollect that, while you were still clad in the praetexta, you became a bankrupt? That was the fault of your father, you will say. I admit that. In truth such a defense is full of filial affection. But it is peculiarly suited to your own audacity, that you sat among the fourteen rows of the knights, though by the Roscian law there was a place appointed for bankrupts, even if any one had become such by the fault of fortune and not by his own. You assumed the manly gown, which your soon made a womanly one: at first a public prostitute, with a regular price for your wickedness, and that not a low one. But very soon Curio stepped in, who carried you off from your public trade, and, as if he had bestowed a matron's robe upon you, settled you in a steady and durable wedlock. [45]  No boy bought for the gratification of passion was ever so wholly in the power of his master as you were in Curio's. How often has his father turned you out of his house? How often has he placed guards to prevent you from entering? while you, with night for your accomplice, lust for your encourager, and wages for your compeller, were let down through the roof. That house could no longer endure your wickedness. Do you not know that I am speaking of matters with which I am thoroughly acquainted? Remember that time when Curio, the father, lay weeping in his bed; his son throwing himself at my feet with tears recommended to me you; he entreated me to defend you against his own father, if he demanded six millions of sesterces of you; for that he had been bail for you to that amount. And he himself, burning with love, declared positively that because he was unable to bear the misery of being separated from you, he should go into banishment. [46]  And at that time what misery of that most flourishing family did I allay, or rather did I remove! I persuaded the father to pay the son's debts; to release the young man, endowed as he was with great promise of courage and ability, by the sacrifice of part of his family estate; and to use his privileges and authority as a father to prohibit him not only from all intimacy with, but from every opportunity of meeting you. When you recollected that all this was done by me, would you have dared to provoke me by abuse if you had not been trusting to those swords which we behold?

THE SECOND SPEECH OF M. T. CICERO AGAINST MARCUS ANTONIUS. CALLED ALSO THE SECOND PHILIPPIC
http://old.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0021&layout=&loc=2.18.45



Fixed quote tags  -PtA
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Thankful on November 01, 2009, 08:31:52 PM
Feanor, I really enjoyed reading your description of the church service.  Thank you for coming back to post about that. It's one thing we love about Orthodoxy, the multi-sensual approach to worship (incense, candles, icons, music, bowing/crossing, etc.). We started attending an Orthodox church regularly in March, become catechumen in August (I'm a married mom of seven) and will be baptized probably sometime next year (we will wait for our priest's timing).  May God be glorified in your journey into His church. 
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Feanor on November 02, 2009, 12:02:48 AM
Feanor, I really enjoyed reading your description of the church service.  Thank you for coming back to post about that. It's one thing we love about Orthodoxy, the multi-sensual approach to worship (incense, candles, icons, music, bowing/crossing, etc.). We started attending an Orthodox church regularly in March, become catechumen in August (I'm a married mom of seven) and will be baptized probably sometime next year (we will wait for our priest's timing).  May God be glorified in your journey into His church. 

No problem, it was a pleasure to reflect on the service and write about it. I can't wait to go back.



As for everyone else... the purpose of me saying 'I don't condemn homosexuals' was to ask if this would stop me from becoming part of the Church or not, not to start a debate.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: ialmisry on November 02, 2009, 12:15:33 AM
Our understanding of human sexuality, gender identity is different.

Judging by the ancient record, it doesn't seem so.

Please, elaborate. My understanding was that gender identity is really quite fluid. For example, it is no longer customary to identify womanhood with slavery, nor with intrinsic evil.

You're going to have to be more specific with whose custom (and when) it was to identify womanhood with slavery and intrinsic evil.

I was thinking (as usual) of the English medieval period. Women were thought to be weaker and more subject to evil. Women were also considered to be inherently more sinful than men, because (like Eve) they were subject to temptation by the devil. In fact, you can see this in the standard iconography of Genesis, in which the serpent is represented with a woman's face!

However, when I was growing up in the UK, one still heard that women could not be raped by their husbands, the reason being that their bodies and sexuality belonged absolutely to these men, and that therefore their consent or lack of consent could be discounted.

That wasn't medieval England: it was overturned in Britain in 1991, and in the US in 1975-93. It wasn't that their consent was discounted, it was held implied by the marital relationship (the tort of loss of consortium is based on the same premise). Now criminalized, the problem is how to prosecute in a situation in which sexual relations are assumed by the law (and can be ended by divorce if not).  The case of the husband beating the wife senseless is an easy one (but then one wonders why the domestic assault and battery statutes aren't enough), but for the couples into bondage etc. not so easy, let alone just when the Mrs. is angry at the Mr. (and the misuse of Domestic Violence statutes show this happens quite often). In Illinois our protector of the people and women a/k/a the disgraced governor Blagojevich has some law passed that a woman must express consent throughout a sexual act.  Good luck proving that in court.

And by the way, women aren't the only ones who can be forced into sex.

Quote
The bodies of women belonged to men: this is slavery. Fortunately, we have progressed and a man can no longer claim his absolute right to have sex with his wife:

So at to avoid a steamy conversation, let's attack it from a different angle: Henry VIII wasn't free to do what he wanted with his body. He had already sired a son, but since it wasn't from his wife, he didn't count.  Katherine held him to his legal contract. The "Holy Roman Emperor" Henry IV tried to have his way with his wife Eupraxia of Kiev, and got in trouble for it (the details are rather bizarre).

I am not as familiar with English cases, but the data left in Egypt for the medieval period (Jewish, Muslim, Christian), it was hardly an absolute right. In the case of Islam, the contrast is up front, as there are long discussions among the jurists distinguishing acts that a wife's consent is needed, contrasted with a slave girl (a very common piece of property, to judge by the material).  I'll spare you the details.


Quote
but even now, it is very hard to prosecute such rape cases.

or defend against such accusations.  Given what goes on in divorce court nowadays, not a small problem.



Quote
The same is true even when women have been coerced into a legal marriage, as still happens.

Here there is a legitimate issue, though since on the books consent is required, I'm not how much this makes your case.


Quote
To go beyond the Christian context, don't Orthodox Jews still make a formal prayer of thanks to God 'for not making me a woman'?

...or a gentile or a slave: the context is a thanksgiving prayer the the Orthodox Jew thanks God for having bound him by all the Law (which is not all encumbant on the gentile, woman, or slave).

Quote
It is very, very recently that women have been able to do such things as owning property


I see this repeated often, but there are several things that do not compute on it.  For one, in all the accounts on Shakespeare's will, the fact of him only wiling his second best bed to his wife is always discussed in the context of her inheritited 1/3-1/2 of the estate even if her name wasn't mentioned.  I've come across such things here and there that don't make sense if there were no women owning property.  That's just in England: througout the Islamic World, Jewish World, and the Orthodox lands the right of women to own property was established in the law (and an array of sources show it was exercised).  I am aware of the issue being in the 1800's in common law jurisdictions, as in Charles Dickens' Oliver Twist, when the character Mr. Bumble is informed that "the law supposes that your wife acts under your direction". Mr. Bumble replies "If the law supposes that… the law is an ass—an idiot. If that’s the eye of the law, the law is a bachelor; and the worst I wish the law is that his eye may be opened by experience—by experience."
http://www.texasbar.com/saywhat/weblog/buchmeyer_article_archive/may84.asp

But it seems that it became a hard and fast rule just before the 1800's.

Quote
and even living in a house alone without fear of being accused of criminal activities (for which read, prostitution). My own mother remembers that when she first rented a flat on her own, her father was required to co-sign her agreement: her signature, as a single woman, did not count.

Clearly, our ideas of gender identity change. I for one am thankful that we no longer assume that women are biologically passive in the production of children, or that real men are unable to cry in times of emotion.

I'm not so sure that last part is a good thing:
http://www.robertfulford.com/Crying.html

Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Feanor on November 02, 2009, 04:23:55 AM
Stop hijacking my thread :p
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on November 02, 2009, 04:32:18 AM
Don't get discouraged.  Some people on here love to get on a hobby horse.  We're really glad you're here.  Do you have any other general questions about Orthodoxy?
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Liz on November 02, 2009, 07:42:02 AM
Stop hijacking my thread :p

I apologize. It was lovely to read your description of the service you went to - sounds as if it really meant a lot to you.

I'll try to mend my bad manners  :(

Liz x
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Feanor on November 02, 2009, 07:53:18 AM
Yeah, I have one major question:

How can I explain my decision to become Orthodox to my friends?

I was, until about six months ago, a very anti-Christian atheist. I would openly fight with people over religion, trying to free their minds of backwards dogma which was restricting their enjoyment of life. I read atheist literature, promoted atheist ideology, and would frequently mock religion - in particular, Christianity. I considered myself to be fighting in a battle for the world's freedom - freedom from religion. It was part of who I was, very much so. Many of my friends were influenced by my atheist ideals and share a similar disdain for Christianity, if not religion, or even spirituality, as a whole. However, these friends are very dear to me. They are great people, who are kind, friendly, interesting, intelligent and tolerant. When I first started believing in God I was confused and unsure - my whole world which I had built and been living in came crashing down, and I was a very unhappy convert. I told a few close friends that I believed in God, and they were okay with it... I know that they wont reject me if I tell them I'm a Christian, but they will be shocked and unable to understand it. I want to remain friends with them and retain their respect without looking like an ideological flip-flopper who a) can't stick to his beliefs, and b) is blindly jumping into the McTheology which evangelical Protestants preach left, right and centre, which today's youth now associate with 'Christianity.'

My decision to convert to Orthodoxy came as the result of years of spiritual searching - which led me to firstly believe in God, then in Christ, then that Orthodoxy was the best church for me and that it is the church which Jesus Christ established. However, as anti-religious atheists, I know that many of my friends will not understand this at all. Some will be angry, some will be doubtful, some will think I'm being an idiot, some will think I'm giving into an emotional crisis. I don't want to lose these friends' respect, and I hope that over time I can help them to become more open-minded about Christianity (we're still only very young; my friends and I have years ahead of us). Nonetheless, they are inevitably going to ask, 'why?'

How can I explain it to them in a manner that appears (as it genuinely is) rational and intellectual?
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Feanor on November 02, 2009, 08:11:07 AM
Stop hijacking my thread :p

I apologize. It was lovely to read your description of the service you went to - sounds as if it really meant a lot to you.

I'll try to mend my bad manners  :(

Liz x

Hehe, no need to apologise. I enjoy debate immensely and hope to find lots of it here, but I want to be self-centred and egotistic in this thread :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Carole on November 02, 2009, 08:43:57 AM
How can I explain it to them in a manner that appears (as it genuinely is) rational and intellectual?

If they are truly your friends tell them what you have told us here in this post.  If they aren't likely to be able to respect that (even if they don't understand it) then your best bet is to simply say, "It is intensely personal," and leave it at that.

For some people no amount of explanation will make them understand.  If you think that they cannot accept the explanation that you've already written then perhaps you're better off not explaining.  In truth, you need explain yourself to no one.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Heorhij on November 02, 2009, 09:27:23 AM
the purpose of me saying 'I don't condemn homosexuals' was to ask if this would stop me from becoming part of the Church or not

By no means.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Heorhij on November 02, 2009, 09:27:23 AM
these friends are very dear to me. They are great people, who are kind, friendly, interesting, intelligent and tolerant.

I am also blessed with friends and relatives who are like what you describe. And that's great! Just be their friend, never mind what they understand or not understand. Just a short while ago, I used to have this concern, too: just how should I better proclaim the Gospel to my agnostic wife, to my militant atheist daughter and son-in-law, to my Tolstoyist mother? I posted something on this forum about that... But then I came to seeing that I should simply keep living my life, praying in front of the icons in the icon corner of my home (even when my wife says I'm crazy and turns the TV louder or starts vacuum-cleaning right near my feet :)), smiling to people, suporting them the best I can... That's all there is, and that's quite a lot. Be a good icon of Christ, love people, fight sin in yourself. There hardly is anything beyond that that people like you and I can do - but again, doing that is already a lot.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Thomas on November 02, 2009, 10:02:14 AM
Feanor

Welcome to the Convert Issues Forum.  Our object is to give simple responses to your questions with resources that you may read to gain further insight into your questions. In the case of the issue that you have mentioned, several people on the forum have given the best response, i.e. contact your local Orthodox Priest to discuss this matter.

Again welcome to the Convert Issue Forum.

Thomas
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Feanor on November 02, 2009, 11:26:54 AM
Thanks for the responses :)



Can anyone tell me about specific traditions of the Antiochian branch of Orthodoxy which differ from other branches of the EOC? Obviously the Antiochian Church uses Arabic in its DL. Anything else that sets it apart from other forms of Orthodoxy, or the EOC as a whole?
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: ialmisry on November 02, 2009, 12:17:55 PM
Thanks for the responses :)



Can anyone tell me about specific traditions of the Antiochian branch of Orthodoxy which differ from other branches of the EOC? Obviously the Antiochian Church uses Arabic in its DL. Anything else that sets it apart from other forms of Orthodoxy, or the EOC as a whole?

Actually, a lot don't use Arabic.  Our parish is all English.

Antioch is more inclined to treat OO as fully Orthodox, not having an issue with intercommunion with them, not requiring chrismation for their communion etc.  Certain practices are also more in tune with OO, i.e. other Middle Eastern, practice, like no fasting on Wednesday and Friday during Pascahl tide.  Otherwise, it is more or less like the Greek usage, but Antioch is on the side of the Russians in Greek/Russian rivalry.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: pensateomnia on November 02, 2009, 12:25:20 PM
I believe Feanor is in Australia, where, as far I have been told, the Antiochian churches are much more ethnic than in the U.S. and prone to use plenty of Arabic.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: katherineofdixie on November 02, 2009, 01:09:34 PM
If the Church was what she claimed to be, then I had no choice but to follow her, even if I didn't understand her reasoning on certain issues.

And this was the conclusion that I came to also. There are, it seems to me, only these two choices.
If the Church is who she claims to be, then I have to be obedient to her teachings.
If the Church is not, then the point is moot, and I can return to happily making up my own theology to suit myself, and remaking God and the Church in my own image.

Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Marc1152 on November 02, 2009, 02:22:40 PM
And I accept that submission is possible when it applies to negative aspects (don't get into a homosexual relationship, for example), but how is it possible to force yourself into believing something you don't hold true?

I do it.  I find the ever-virginity of the Theotokos difficult to swallow on historical and scriptural grounds, but I force myself to believe it because it is dogma.

I don't think you should try to "Force Yourself"..You simply say, This is something I must not fully understand. But I trust the Church, which knows far more than I ever will and accept their authority.

For example, I was never particularly Pro-Life before I was Christian. Had I been elected to office, I am sure I would not ever vote to restrict access to Abortion.. It wasn't my issue in any sort of emotional way. It was just another in a long list of issues. But now that I am Christian i accede to the Wisdom of the Church and accept that My Church is Pro-Life. Therefore, were I ever to be elected to office and had to act on this belief I would never vote in any way to support Abortion.. I would say" I am an Orthodox Christian and my Church teaches that Abortion is a great sin"....Case closed.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on November 02, 2009, 06:10:14 PM
How can I explain my decision to become Orthodox to my friends?

My advice would honestly be just to keep quiet unless it comes up.  You need to spend a good while getting acclimated to the real Christian faith.  Many converts in their zeal start thrusting their newfound ideas on everyone around them, only later to decide not to become Orthodox at all.  It is a hard life to live, and the day after baptism is the day the real work begins.  So for now embrace the holy silence and be quiet long enough for God to speak to your heart. 

Attain the Spirit of Peace, and thousands around you will be saved.  ~ St. Seraphim of Sarov
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: ozgeorge on November 02, 2009, 06:43:16 PM
I believe Feanor is in Australia, where, as far I have been told, the Antiochian churches are much more ethnic than in the U.S. and prone to use plenty of Arabic.
Don't believe all you hear: http://www.smg.org.au/
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: yitbsal on November 03, 2009, 12:25:18 PM
I really have trouble with the idea of joining a Church whose beliefs I don't entirely agree with, or more importantly, whose beliefs I am not willing to be shaped by in the future. Here I find Sinner Servant's reply to Liz's beautiful question appropriate:

Quote
It's all very well to say that a person must submit to the Church's teaching. And I accept that submission is possible when it applies to negative aspects (don't get into a homosexual relationship, for example), but how is it possible to force yourself into believing something you don't hold true?

Pray... "with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief." (Mark 9:24)

Joining the Orthodox Church without being willing to submit to the entirety of its beliefs seems to me oxymoronic.

On the topic of homosexuality, or sexuality in general... I think it is actually good that the discussion lingers on these topics because the fact is that these topics trouble a lot of people. They are a source of a lot of doubt evolving into unbelief, and it is for good reason that it has been the cause of schisms in many churches. It is not a peripheral issue, in my opinion, not because of its very nature, but because it causes us to face important questions that we otherwise avoid. What I'm trying to say is that though it is not a fundamental issue in and of itself, it causes us to face the fundamental questions that we avoid.

I have a theory on this, if I may indulge. A close friend of mine, a (faithful to Church teaching) homosexual (or bisexual), explains his struggles to me as follows: Imagine an engaged heterosexual couple engaging in sexual activity and conflicted about it. We love each other, but then our religious beliefs tell us we're wrong. What to do? In a few months, the couple are married, and the spiritual conflict tends to become moot. Whatever doubts they have about the doctrine are laid aside. The question may linger, but only in the abstract. The couple don't think about it much. It is not a source of spiritual struggle. But for the homosexual Christian, his belief is tested by his doubts throughout his lifetime, and he cannot turn away and avoid the resulting spiritual struggle. That is the constant struggle.

Or another more classic example... The dark night of the soul. For Mother Teresa, her perceived absence of God troubled her very deeply. It was a source of intense anguish. Whereas for others of us spiritual novices, with other things in our lives to occupy us, etc., it would not be so troubling. We wouldn't even notice it much, and if we did, we'd manage a way of not thinking about it too much. As the fathers say, the closer you get to God, the harder the Devil fights you.

Over the centuries, and certainly over the past few decades, many people who were Christians have come to reject Christianity. Their disbelief started out in various ways. The problem of pain, perhaps, or the evidence of science, or a variety of factors, all causing their experience and knowledge to clash with Christian doctrine. In the end, they decided that they simply could not believe the very idea of Jesus' divinity, reincarnation, etc. Like Bishop John Spong, they became some type of agnostic.

Interestingly, many of these folks tried to hang on to remnants of belief, while letting go of the doctrines they disagreed with. But slowly, yearning for philosophical consistency, they end up becoming non-Christian.

This is why I think that a 'cafeteria Orthodox', one that accepts some doctrine but rejects others, is simply in a transitional period towards complete unbelief. If one cannot, for example, believe scripture and the fathers on their teachings of sexuality, how can one believe their teachings on Christ's divinity, a matter far more fantastic and unbelievable than the teachings on sexuality?! Perhaps its because many of us think that we can safely and reject the teachings on sexuality, while maintaining our belief in Christ, because our doubts about Christ do not affect us personally. We are not like Mother Teresa - we can live with these doubts, avoiding them, not thinking about the too much. We are not like Spong, yearning for consistency.

I think the evidence over the last few decades supports the theory that 'cafeteria' or 'liberal' Christianity turns out to be a rest area on the road to agnosticism. The experience of the mainline Protestants shows that. Are liberal Christians frauds? Certainly not. They are sincere, but I would venture that they hang on for the sake of sentimentality. Beliefs don't change overnight. People and community are involved. One misses the friendship and the ceremony. One resists change. But in the end, the path they're on is the path they're on. And individual may persist in this limbo until he passes away, but over generations, a Church cannot. The Church slowly begins to disappear, and we're seeing this now.

This is why I think that it is important to understand that one has to submit entirely. One has to know what one is getting into. It is not just a community or buildings or people, but a well-formed set of beliefs that tinkering with simply does not make sense.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Heorhij on November 03, 2009, 12:53:13 PM
This is why I think that a 'cafeteria Orthodox', one that accepts some doctrine but rejects others, is simply in a transitional period towards complete unbelief. If one cannot, for example, believe scripture and the fathers on their teachings of sexuality, how can one believe their teachings on Christ's divinity, a matter far more fantastic and unbelievable than the teachings on sexuality?!

Well, as one of these people who are, according to your judgment, on their way towards complete unbelief, I might try to answer this. I don't know how, but I just believe their teachings on Christ's divinity (and humanity as well). I think these teachings principally cannot be verified by science. They are outside of the scope of science, like, for example, poetry.

On the other hand, human sexuality is most definitely addressable by science. When people had no idea about genes and genetic determination of sexuality, they could not have possibly conceive that a homosexual simply cannot stop being a homosexual. Similarly, they most certainly thought that once you have physical appearance of a man or a woman, you ARE a man or a woman. Knowing what we now know about transsexuals, we no longer believe that this matter is so simple.

BTW, in patristic sources that I have studied, depression is called a sinful passion, and we are called to fight it in ourselves with the help of prayer and fasting. While prayer and fasting are certainly great, a person with a serotonin imbalance in the brain simply CANNOT be cured of depression unless he or she takes a special medication that inhibits serotonin reuptake. Yet another subject that our dear Fathers could never have predicted...
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Marc1152 on November 03, 2009, 04:44:01 PM
This is why I think that a 'cafeteria Orthodox', one that accepts some doctrine but rejects others, is simply in a transitional period towards complete unbelief. If one cannot, for example, believe scripture and the fathers on their teachings of sexuality, how can one believe their teachings on Christ's divinity, a matter far more fantastic and unbelievable than the teachings on sexuality

Because if you don't believe in the Church's idea's about  Divinity you don't concurrently become isolated, horny and lonely..............  Just saying  :)
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Jetavan on November 03, 2009, 04:48:36 PM
On the other hand, human sexuality is most definitely addressable by science. When people had no idea about genes and genetic determination of sexuality, they could not have possibly conceive that a homosexual simply cannot stop being a homosexual.
Did the Fathers say that homosexuals should stop 'being' homosexual, or did they merely say that it is possible to alter sexual behavior?

Quote
BTW, in patristic sources that I have studied, depression is called a sinful passion, and we are called to fight it in ourselves with the help of prayer and fasting. While prayer and fasting are certainly great, a person with a serotonin imbalance in the brain simply CANNOT be cured of depression unless he or she takes a special medication that inhibits serotonin reuptake. Yet another subject that our dear Fathers could never have predicted...
But is serotonin imbalance the only cause of depression?
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Asteriktos on November 03, 2009, 04:58:40 PM
Quote
But is serotonin imbalance the only cause of depression?

My depression may be caused partially by a serotonin imbalance, but that would be only one factor among many that are probably having an impact. Regardless, medications were needed to make me (more or less) stable.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: katherineofdixie on November 03, 2009, 05:18:45 PM
On the other hand, human sexuality is most definitely addressable by science. When people had no idea about genes and genetic determination of sexuality, they could not have possibly conceive that a homosexual simply cannot stop being a homosexual.
Did the Fathers say that homosexuals should stop 'being' homosexual, or did they merely say that it is possible to alter sexual behavior?


Isn't the point of Orthodox praxis to alter our behavior? Isn't that the point of fasting and confession and all the rest? Isn't our goal to alter our behavior to become more like Christ? Isn't that theosis?
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: witega on November 03, 2009, 05:26:03 PM
Quote
But is serotonin imbalance the only cause of depression?

My depression may be caused partially by a serotonin imbalance, but that would be only one factor among many that are probably having an impact. Regardless, medications were needed to make me (more or less) stable.

But the Fathers never said 'don't take medicine for your depression'. What they said--that depression is a bad thing and that the individual should struggle against it with the tools available--is fully compatible with the modern realization that for many people there is a biological component which can and should be addressed with medicine. There is no conflict between the use of anti-depressants and standard Orthodox practices like prayer and fasting in the pursuit of mental health.

Heorhij appears to be trying to creat some equivalency between pre-modern and modern understandings of depression and homosexuality. But in fact he's arguing opposites--the position that modern understanding of the biological/genetic aspects of homosexuality should transform our view of the morality of homosexual behavior is as if one were to argue that since we now realize that there is a biological/genetic component to depression, we should not treat it as a mental problem but rather declare depressive mental states to be just as good and worthy as 'normal' mental states and indulge them rather than using those insights to attempt to treat/suppress/control them.

Alcoholism is another one that could fit into this pattern--the fact that we now realize that for some people there is a genetic component to being unable to control their drinking does not mean we should encourage alcoholics to embrace their problem and indulge at will. We should certainly recognize that the alcoholic has a 'harder row to hoe' than those of us who never feel tempted to drink excessively, and pastorally treat their failures. But we do them no favors by saying, 'oh, that's just the way you were born--drink up.'



Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Heorhij on November 03, 2009, 05:41:22 PM
On the other hand, human sexuality is most definitely addressable by science. When people had no idea about genes and genetic determination of sexuality, they could not have possibly conceive that a homosexual simply cannot stop being a homosexual.
Did the Fathers say that homosexuals should stop 'being' homosexual, or did they merely say that it is possible to alter sexual behavior?

AFAIK, they could not see homosexual behavior as "normal" because in their mind it was a CHOICE of an individual. A bad, wrong choice. I don't see any reasons to view it that way now, when we know that homosexuality is not a choice, and that the ability of any person, homo- or heterosexual, to live all of his/her life in the state of celibacy is a relatively rare gift.

Quote
BTW, in patristic sources that I have studied, depression is called a sinful passion, and we are called to fight it in ourselves with the help of prayer and fasting. While prayer and fasting are certainly great, a person with a serotonin imbalance in the brain simply CANNOT be cured of depression unless he or she takes a special medication that inhibits serotonin reuptake. Yet another subject that our dear Fathers could never have predicted...
But is serotonin imbalance the only cause of depression?

Maybe not, but serious cases of depression are always somehow linked to alterations in brain chemistry. And they usually have nothing to do with an individual's morality or faith.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Heorhij on November 03, 2009, 05:41:23 PM
Quote
But is serotonin imbalance the only cause of depression?

My depression may be caused partially by a serotonin imbalance, but that would be only one factor among many that are probably having an impact. Regardless, medications were needed to make me (more or less) stable.

Same here. I used to take antidepressants intermittently, but recently my doctor said that I should perhaps stay on them all the time, perhaps for the rest of my life, or else I might end up like my dad.:(
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Heorhij on November 03, 2009, 05:41:23 PM
On the other hand, human sexuality is most definitely addressable by science. When people had no idea about genes and genetic determination of sexuality, they could not have possibly conceive that a homosexual simply cannot stop being a homosexual.
Did the Fathers say that homosexuals should stop 'being' homosexual, or did they merely say that it is possible to alter sexual behavior?


Isn't the point of Orthodox praxis to alter our behavior? Isn't that the point of fasting and confession and all the rest? Isn't our goal to alter our behavior to become more like Christ? Isn't that theosis?

Marriage is also theosis. Some people SHOULD marry "rather than burn" (1 Cor. 7:9).
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Schultz on November 03, 2009, 05:42:49 PM
I also wonder what the original words those particular Fathers used for this "sinful passion" we are calling "depression" in this thread.  Father Hopko, in one of his recent talks on AFN, made a distinction between "depression" and "despair," calling the former a medical condition while the latter is a spiritual problem.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Heorhij on November 03, 2009, 05:51:20 PM
Heorhij appears to be trying to creat some equivalency between pre-modern and modern understandings of depression and homosexuality. But in fact he's arguing opposites--the position that modern understanding of the biological/genetic aspects of homosexuality should transform our view of the morality of homosexual behavior is as if one were to argue that since we now realize that there is a biological/genetic component to depression, we should not treat it as a mental problem but rather declare depressive mental states to be just as good and worthy as 'normal' mental states and indulge them rather than using those insights to attempt to treat/suppress/control them.

Well, I guess we actually might look at some cases of chronic depression as "just as good and worthy." Like I said, people like yours truly perhaps MUST remain on antidepressants as long as they live - same thing homosexuals will be homosexuals as long as they live. Rather than judging what is "normal" or "healthy" and dreaming about "curing" me (a person with depression) or my homosexual brother or sister, maybe it is time to say that both my condition and theirs can be MANAGED in certain ways. For some of them it will be celibacy, for other - their kind of marriage, the homosexual marriage. And the latter, I am sure, CAN be as committed, as monogamous, as lifelong, and as assisting in theosis as a heterosexual marriage can be.


Alcoholism is another one that could fit into this pattern--the fact that we now realize that for some people there is a genetic component to being unable to control their drinking does not mean we should encourage alcoholics to embrace their problem and indulge at will. We should certainly recognize that the alcoholic has a 'harder row to hoe' than those of us who never feel tempted to drink excessively, and pastorally treat their failures. But we do them no favors by saying, 'oh, that's just the way you were born--drink up.'

But alcoholism physically ruins a person rather quickly, causing liver cirrhosis and other deadly conditions. Not so homosexual unions. Gore Vidal is still alive and well, in his 80-s. Jean Marais died when he was in his 80-s or even 90-s.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Heorhij on November 03, 2009, 06:13:17 PM
I also wonder what the original words those particular Fathers used for this "sinful passion" we are calling "depression" in this thread.  Father Hopko, in one of his recent talks on AFN, made a distinction between "depression" and "despair," calling the former a medical condition while the latter is a spiritual problem.

Most of my patristic reading was in Russian translation, where the terms were пeчаль or уныниe. Both of them can be translated into English as "sadness" or "depression," and they were called sinful passions on par with gluttony, lust, love of money, envy, pride, etc.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Schultz on November 03, 2009, 06:13:48 PM
It's the Greek (presumably) I'm most interested in.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Asteriktos on November 03, 2009, 06:30:19 PM
Is the term accidie translated as both depression and despair in English, or are there different terms for these concepts?
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: witega on November 03, 2009, 06:38:08 PM
AFAIK, they could not see homosexual behavior as "normal" because in their mind it was a CHOICE of an individual. A bad, wrong choice. I don't see any reasons to view it that way now, when we know that homosexuality is not a choice, and that the ability of any person, homo- or heterosexual, to live all of his/her life in the state of celibacy is a relatively rare gift.

That is a *serious* mischaracterization of the Patristic position. It might be accurate for a 19th-century Victorian alienist but has no relationship to the actual teaching of the Church.

'Desires' and 'temptations' are NOT an individual choice. The Father *always* recognized that desires arise naturally from the human soul without any action of the will. However, simply because a desire is 'natural' doesn't make it moral. In fact, to the contrary, because we are fallen beings *all* our desires are corrupted and twisted from their proper orientation to some extent. The particular corruption and its strength varies from individual to individual based on a host of things--and the fact that we can now identify that the vehicle for this particular twisted desire is primarily genetic while the vehicle for that one is primarily cultural doesn't alter the underlying Patristic understanding. One person's desire for food is out of all proportion to the needs of his body (gluttony), another person's desire to accomplish is twisted into a need to conspicuously achieve (vanity) and crush his competitors (lovelessness), and a third person's desire for love is twisted in oriention to an inappropriate target. But we are all twisted--that is in fact one major difference between this discusion in an actual Orthodox context and a repetition of the ongoing 20th century Westernized debate. The Fathers didn't prioritize or obsess about any one particular desire--we all have messed up desires and my continuous temptation to vanity or greed or gluttony or nubile virgins is not different in kind from another person's sexual desire being twisted to the same sex.

Will/choice comes in on the choice to act on one's twisted desires, or to resist them and to work to purify them.

Quote
Well, I guess we actually might look at some cases of chronic depression as "just as good and worthy." Like I said, people like yours truly perhaps MUST remain on antidepressants as long as they live

But again, you are arguing against yourself with your example of depression. You take antidepressants. You take action to *not* indulge the twisted appetite which feeds that negative emotion. That makes you the same as the homosexual who chooses not to act on his homosexual desire--or who the heterosexual who devotes himself to celibacy and the lifelong struggle to control and suppress the natural (but still twisted) desire for members of the opposite sex.

Just as you are ignoring the Father's actual teaching to attach some strawman, you are ignoring the fact that the great majority of Fathers who were making this teaching were themselves *exemplars* of the fact that the sexual urge, whatever its orientation, *can* be controlled, *can* be purified. What was St. Anthony's sexual orientation? St. Dmitri of Rostov? St. Gregory the Great? I don't know. I don't want to know. I don't need to know.

Quote
Gore Vidal is still alive and well, in his 80-s. Jean Marais died when he was in his 80-s or even 90-s.

And I can point to plenty of vain, angry, selfish people who lived 'alive and well' into their 80s. And martyrs who died in their teens. The fact that something may not kill you quickly is not a relative argument when we are talking about what is right or wrong, what produces saints and what doesn't.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Asteriktos on November 03, 2009, 06:43:34 PM
witega,

Quote
But the Fathers never said 'don't take medicine for your depression'. What they said--that depression is a bad thing and that the individual should struggle against it with the tools available--is fully compatible with the modern realization that for many people there is a biological component which can and should be addressed with medicine. There is no conflict between the use of anti-depressants and standard Orthodox practices like prayer and fasting in the pursuit of mental health.

I guess my issue is, had I lived in a previous century, and certainly had I lived in the 1st or 10th centuries, I probably would have been told that I had demons in me. The implication would have been that something was wrong with me, maybe I was wicked, or not vigilant enough, not watching the door to my heart or whatever. I would agree that Orthodoxy has nothing against using medications, but I still agree that the understanding of the ancients in such issues is nowhere near what the understanding of moderns are.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: yitbsal on November 03, 2009, 06:49:43 PM
This is why I think that a 'cafeteria Orthodox', one that accepts some doctrine but rejects others, is simply in a transitional period towards complete unbelief. If one cannot, for example, believe scripture and the fathers on their teachings of sexuality, how can one believe their teachings on Christ's divinity, a matter far more fantastic and unbelievable than the teachings on sexuality

Because if you don't believe in the Church's idea's about  Divinity you don't concurrently become isolated, horny and lonely..............  Just saying  :)

Exactly, exactly! For many of us, our belief in Christ can be a soothing, comforting, costless belief with no negative consequences. For the martyrs, it was not, so I can only imagine the doubt and internal conflict they had. For someone like Bishop Spong, too, it was not soothing - it caused an intellectual conflict that he could not simply avoid. Christianity can be hard and demanding.

You were probably being ironic, but I feel I should say that I would think that our faithful non-heterosexual brothers and sisters would want you to know that they are not all 'isolated, horny, and lonely...'! Some may be, some not, and then again, we cannot possible measure the spiritual comfort they receive from God.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Feanor on November 03, 2009, 06:55:12 PM
So I guess many of you believe that the church is totally infallible in its teachings, then?
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: John of the North on November 03, 2009, 07:34:54 PM
So I guess many of you believe that the church is totally infallible in its teachings, then?

The Church always gets it right, eventually.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Feanor on November 03, 2009, 07:39:14 PM
But 'eventually' could be a matter of many years, right?
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Asteriktos on November 03, 2009, 07:42:07 PM
Quote
So I guess many of you believe that the church is totally infallible in its teachings, then?

I didn't consider the church infallible when I was Orthodox. I consider infallibility not only to be impossible, but also a largely meaningless concept even in theory. But then, some would say that I wasn't being orthodox in that view. ;)
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Heorhij on November 03, 2009, 07:47:50 PM
'Desires' and 'temptations' are NOT an individual choice.

But the acting on them is. Granted. You are born heterosexual - act on your desire when you are married. Born homosexual - don't even think about it. And... why?

The Father *always* recognized that desires arise naturally from the human soul without any action of the will. However, simply because a desire is 'natural' doesn't make it moral. In fact, to the contrary, because we are fallen beings *all* our desires are corrupted and twisted from their proper orientation to some extent.

So why can't the sexual desire of homosexuals be made LESS corrupted and twisted in a committed, lifelong monogamous marriage? Or do we accept that heterosexual sexual desires aren't made any less twisted and corrupted in a heterosexual committed, monogamous, lifelong marriage? What IS the difference?

Will/choice comes in on the choice to act on one's twisted desires, or to resist them and to work to purify them.

No argument here. But why can a heterosexual "purify" his twisted desire, and a homosexual cannot?

You take antidepressants. You take action to *not* indulge the twisted appetite which feeds that negative emotion. That makes you the same as the homosexual who chooses not to act on his homosexual desire--or who the heterosexual who devotes himself to celibacy and the lifelong struggle to control and suppress the natural (but still twisted) desire for members of the opposite sex.

Right, except not all heterosexuals can be successful in that struggle even if they want to be. I am positive that the same applies to homosexuals. So, for those heterosexuals who cannot be celibate, there is a choice between chaste, monogamous marriage and a "porneia," sexual immorality of various sorts. And for homosexuals who cannot be celibate? Only "porneia?"

I can point to plenty of vain, angry, selfish people who lived 'alive and well' into their 80s. And martyrs who died in their teens. The fact that something may not kill you quickly is not a relative argument when we are talking about what is right or wrong, what produces saints and what doesn't.

But I was only objecting to the analogy with alcoholism.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Heorhij on November 03, 2009, 07:47:50 PM
So I guess many of you believe that the church is totally infallible in its teachings, then?

I believe She is totally infallible in those things that are not addressable by science, for example in Her understanding of the Person of Christ as fully Divine and fully human, or in eschatology, etc. However, She can, IMHO, adapt in Her teachings to the new knowledge gained by us through science. And I see it happen in some areas but not in other areas.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Heorhij on November 03, 2009, 07:47:51 PM
witega,

Quote
But the Fathers never said 'don't take medicine for your depression'. What they said--that depression is a bad thing and that the individual should struggle against it with the tools available--is fully compatible with the modern realization that for many people there is a biological component which can and should be addressed with medicine. There is no conflict between the use of anti-depressants and standard Orthodox practices like prayer and fasting in the pursuit of mental health.

I guess my issue is, had I lived in a previous century, and certainly had I lived in the 1st or 10th centuries, I probably would have been told that I had demons in me. The implication would have been that something was wrong with me, maybe I was wicked, or not vigilant enough, not watching the door to my heart or whatever. I would agree that Orthodoxy has nothing against using medications, but I still agree that the understanding of the ancients in such issues is nowhere near what the understanding of moderns are.

Exactly. And I believe the same applies to the understanding of ancients of homosexual sex as necessarily deplorable and un-amenable by monogamous and chaste same-gender marriage.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Heorhij on November 03, 2009, 07:47:51 PM
So I guess many of you believe that the church is totally infallible in its teachings, then?

The Church always gets it right, eventually.

YES! No doubt about it. Eventually...
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Heorhij on November 03, 2009, 07:47:51 PM
But 'eventually' could be a matter of many years, right?

Maybe, in certain areas.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: John of the North on November 03, 2009, 08:11:55 PM
But 'eventually' could be a matter of many years, right?

Yes. During the iconoclastic years, it took a long time for Orthodoxy to be reflected in the praxis of the time. It was noted by someone that if a straw poll was taken in the run up to Nicaea, the Church would be Arian now.

What this does not mean is that the Faith evolves. The Faith does not evolve or change beliefs, there are times when the Church slips, and steps must be taken to restore the image of the Faith as reflected in Church teachings. It also does not mean that the minority is automatically correct, just because they are in the minority.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: mountainman on November 03, 2009, 08:22:15 PM
heorhij seems to be defending the validity of the homosexual lifestyle because in his view it is genetic and therefore not a choice.  And yet this is greatly oversimplified.  First of all, it is in evidence that children are sometimes born with predispositions for certain types of behavior, some sinful.  We cannot depend completely on nature to provide us with our standard of what is good.  We are all perhaps born with such a "thorn in the flesh".  Does this mean we are perpetually victims with no hope for a true struggle against the passions?  Secondly, I know through personal experience that some gay men do actively choose this lifestyle at some point in their lives for purely psychological reasons, such as a need to compensate for a lack of fatherly love in adolescence.  Given, they may have a predisposition, but this is not the determining factor.  The psychology comes first and foremost, rather than an expression of love...  in fact, what we are speaking about most often when we reference homosexuality is not a particular expression of love but a confusion about the nature and role of sexuality.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Riddikulus on November 03, 2009, 09:28:02 PM
heorhij seems to be defending the validity of the homosexual lifestyle because in his view it is genetic and therefore not a choice.  And yet this is greatly oversimplified.  First of all, it is in evidence that children are sometimes born with predispositions for certain types of behavior, some sinful.  We cannot depend completely on nature to provide us with our standard of what is good.  We are all perhaps born with such a "thorn in the flesh".  Does this mean we are perpetually victims with no hope for a true struggle against the passions?  Secondly, I know through personal experience that some gay men do actively choose this lifestyle at some point in their lives for purely psychological reasons, such as a need to compensate for a lack of fatherly love in adolescence.  Given, they may have a predisposition, but this is not the determining factor.  The psychology comes first and foremost, rather than an expression of love...  in fact, what we are speaking about most often when we reference homosexuality is not a particular expression of love but a confusion about the nature and role of sexuality.

Could it be that the standard of what is good is found in our ability to love, not simply to follow rules; love in all its forms - loving God; loving neighbour; loving enemy?
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Feanor on November 03, 2009, 09:40:20 PM
heorhij seems to be defending the validity of the homosexual lifestyle because in his view it is genetic and therefore not a choice.  And yet this is greatly oversimplified.  First of all, it is in evidence that children are sometimes born with predispositions for certain types of behavior, some sinful.  We cannot depend completely on nature to provide us with our standard of what is good.  We are all perhaps born with such a "thorn in the flesh".  Does this mean we are perpetually victims with no hope for a true struggle against the passions?  Secondly, I know through personal experience that some gay men do actively choose this lifestyle at some point in their lives for purely psychological reasons, such as a need to compensate for a lack of fatherly love in adolescence.  Given, they may have a predisposition, but this is not the determining factor.  The psychology comes first and foremost, rather than an expression of love...  in fact, what we are speaking about most often when we reference homosexuality is not a particular expression of love but a confusion about the nature and role of sexuality.

Could it be that the standard of what is good is found in our ability to love, not simply to follow rules; love in all its forms - loving God; loving neighbour; loving enemy?

QFT. Thank you Riddikulus.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Feanor on November 03, 2009, 09:47:00 PM
But 'eventually' could be a matter of many years, right?

Yes. During the iconoclastic years, it took a long time for Orthodoxy to be reflected in the praxis of the time. It was noted by someone that if a straw poll was taken in the run up to Nicaea, the Church would be Arian now.

What this does not mean is that the Faith evolves. The Faith does not evolve or change beliefs, there are times when the Church slips, and steps must be taken to restore the image of the Faith as reflected in Church teachings. It also does not mean that the minority is automatically correct, just because they are in the minority.

The Truth was true from the beginning, is true today, and will be true until the end of time. It never changes. I think we can agree on that.

Human doctrines and philosophical/religious understanding change and adapt as we slowly discover the Truth. Do you think it is possible that this process of perfecting mankind's understanding of Truth - spiritually, morally, metaphysically - is something that could take millennia?

Or was everything that there possibly is to know about everything laid out in the Bible and the teachings of the Early Fathers?
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Andrew21091 on November 03, 2009, 10:07:42 PM
The scriptures and the Church's interpretation of the scriptures on the issue of homosexual relationships are rather clear, I believe.

Relationships yes, mariage - no. There is simply no concept of homosexual marriage in Scripture, like there is no concept of biological evolution, electricity, automobiles, airplanes, protons, neutrons, women having rights independently of fathers or husbands, integrals, differentials, other galaxies...

Homosexuality is a sin according to the Church. Can we just decide that something isn't a sin anymore? People say masturbation can reduce stress and has health benefits (or something like that) so should we then say that it isn't a sin anymore? A lot of people also cheat on their spouses, should we just say no big deal to that since everyone does it? Relationships and marriage are similar, since homosexual relations are condemned in the Bible and by the Church, then how can we allow them to marry?
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Heorhij on November 03, 2009, 11:12:12 PM
heorhij seems to be defending the validity of the homosexual lifestyle because in his view it is genetic and therefore not a choice.  And yet this is greatly oversimplified.  First of all, it is in evidence that children are sometimes born with predispositions for certain types of behavior, some sinful.

But why do you equate homosexual predisposition with sinful one?

We cannot depend completely on nature to provide us with our standard of what is good.  We are all perhaps born with such a "thorn in the flesh".

True, but again, this "thorn" of homosexuality, wasn't it considered a "thorn" because marriage has always been viewed, historically, as a means of procreation - and thus no homosexual sexual relation, given this view of marital relationship, could be seen as marital? What do we say about marital relations now? Are they only for procreation? A man and a woman who has underfone hysterectomy - will they be prohibited by the Church to have sexual relations, when they are married? If a man falls in love with a woman who has no uterus, will he be prohibited by the Church to be married to her and to have sex with her?


Does this mean we are perpetually victims with no hope for a true struggle against the passions?

Of course not, but just what are these "passions?" Why in the world a love of a man to a man or a woman to a woman is automatically, and irreversibly, deemed a "passion," while the love of our own Fr. George to his wife is not?

Secondly, I know through personal experience that some gay men do actively choose this lifestyle at some point in their lives for purely psychological reasons, such as a need to compensate for a lack of fatherly love in adolescence.

Really? Are you one of them? Please PM me, let's talk. I somehow suspect that you are not speaking of experience. I would like to see your arguments convincing me that I am wrong as far as this choice goes.


Given, they may have a predisposition, but this is not the determining factor.  The psychology comes first and foremost, rather than an expression of love...  in fact, what we are speaking about most often when we reference homosexuality is not a particular expression of love but a confusion about the nature and role of sexuality.

Hmmm. Please PM.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: John of the North on November 03, 2009, 11:51:21 PM
Human doctrines and philosophical/religious understanding change and adapt as we slowly discover the Truth. Do you think it is possible that this process of perfecting mankind's understanding of Truth - spiritually, morally, metaphysically - is something that could take millennia?

It is wrong to speak of understanding in this sense, which implies use of Reason. The use of reason is very dangerous when combined with the Orthodox faith. Truth in the sense of Orthodoxy is not really understood so much as it is experienced. Any understanding that is there is not from us and is not projected on to the Holy Scriptures, rather the understanding is given to us from His Revelation, which is guarded by the Church Fathers.

"The Orthodox Church does not endorse the view that the teachings of Christ have changed from time to time; rather that Christianity has remained unaltered from the moment that the Lord delivered the Faith to the Apostles (Matt. 28: 18-20). She affirms that "the faith once delivered to the saints" (Jude 3) is now what it was in the beginning. Orthodox of the twentieth century believe precisely what was believed by Orthodox of the first, the fifth, the tenth, the fifteenth centuries."

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html

Quote
Or was everything that there possibly is to know about everything laid out in the Bible and the teachings of the Early Fathers?

It is impossible to "know everything" that is in the Scriptures and Church Fathers, even if they did contain everything. Orthodox Christianity is a vast and deep ocean. Those who dived in and tried to drink in everything, drowned. We must only take sips of the water. Slow and steady wins the race.

Although some here will use reason or science to argue for or against homosexuality, I do not. A person who engages in homosexual behaviour will answer to themselves, their spiritual father, and God. It is not my concern, and their behaviour is not really your concern either.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Feanor on November 04, 2009, 12:01:26 AM
The scriptures and the Church's interpretation of the scriptures on the issue of homosexual relationships are rather clear, I believe.

Relationships yes, mariage - no. There is simply no concept of homosexual marriage in Scripture, like there is no concept of biological evolution, electricity, automobiles, airplanes, protons, neutrons, women having rights independently of fathers or husbands, integrals, differentials, other galaxies...

Homosexuality is a sin according to the Church. Can we just decide that something isn't a sin anymore? People say masturbation can reduce stress and has health benefits (or something like that) so should we then say that it isn't a sin anymore? A lot of people also cheat on their spouses, should we just say no big deal to that since everyone does it? Relationships and marriage are similar, since homosexual relations are condemned in the Bible and by the Church, then how can we allow them to marry?


Or we could recognise that the natural human desires of sexuality have traditionally been perceived as sinful, evil, wrong, etc due to an inherently flawed underpinning philosophy which stemmed from a backwards cultural zeitgeist in ancient Judaea.

Adults who love each other having sex to strengthen their loving bond should not be a sin. It strengthens and expresses love, it hurts no one.

The argument that homosexuals only have sex out of lust is, quite frankly, rubbish. They have sex for the same reasons that heterosexuals do - and you probably don't need to be reminded that even religious married couples have sex for reasons other than procreation. It strengthens their bond and forms an important part of participating in an intimate act of love within their relationship. Sexuality is healthy and forms a positive part of the human condition.

I'm not talking about casual sex, prostitution, meet-and-screw-in-a-hotel relationships, orgies, and other activities which occur purely due to lust. A good case for calling such activity 'sinful' can be made because it involves sex outside of love and committment.

However, sexually active homosexual couples are no different from sexually active heterosexual couples in their motivations for having sex. I'm sure if homosexual couples could have kids, they would; but as we know that's not the reason that the vast majority of couples have sex, is it? I'm sure even the priest at your local parish uses a condom when he has sex with his wife, as does pretty much everyone who doesn't want (or can't afford to support) a new child every nine months. Unless you want to condemn and persecute every heterosexual couple who uses condoms (and thus commit the gross social/moral irresponsibility of Roman Catholics, who tell Africans in AIDS-ravaged nations not to use contraceptives), drop the case.

Monks and nuns take vows of chastisy because intimate human relationships are totally inappropriate for their lifestyle, which is meant to wholly focus on God, Christ and spirituality. Intimate loving relationships are beautiful, but they would certainly distract monks and nuns from their mission, so it makes sense for monks and nuns to be celibate. They are abstaining from a distraction - not something inherently evil. Not all human beings can be expected to live as monks or nuns - we simply weren't intended that way.

The scriptures were written by human beings who were inspired by God, not by God Himself. And like all human beings, the prophets, scribes, Apostles, evangelists, etc were capable of making mistakes or reflecting the cultural attitudes of their time in their works. The deeper spiritual truths of the scriptures don't lie in the literal surface meanings of the words chosen by their authors. The only entity who has access to Ultimate Truth is the Ultimate Reality (i.e., God) himself. Men make mistakes. Unless you actually expect me to believe that God dictated every word of the Pentateuch to Moses on Mt Sinai - an idea which archaeological evidence and textual analysis discredits extensively.

Christianity has the cause of social justice and humanism at its core, not bigotry. Religion has fostered and promoted bigotry for too long, and it has to stop.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Heorhij on November 04, 2009, 12:06:09 AM
The scriptures and the Church's interpretation of the scriptures on the issue of homosexual relationships are rather clear, I believe.

Relationships yes, mariage - no. There is simply no concept of homosexual marriage in Scripture, like there is no concept of biological evolution, electricity, automobiles, airplanes, protons, neutrons, women having rights independently of fathers or husbands, integrals, differentials, other galaxies...

Homosexuality is a sin according to the Church.

No. Homosexuality, according to what a number of posters (some of them Orhtodox priests) said on this forum, is quite natural. Humans, men and women, millions and millions of them, are born with it according, obviously, with the will of our Creator. Not homosexuality, but what people do with their homosexuality is the matter of the present discourse. Historically, if people chose to not exercise their HETEROsexuality and become monks,  - that was viewed positively by the Church; but the Church never said that every single heterosexual could do it (Matthew 19:10-12). Why, then, is there this tacit presumption that every single homosexual can do it - i.e. become a lifelong celibate person? Yes, I understand there is a notion that they SHOULD. But CAN they? Why is it that not all HETEROsexuals can or should - and yet all HOMOsexuals can and should?

Can we just decide that something isn't a sin anymore? People say masturbation can reduce stress and has health benefits (or something like that) so should we then say that it isn't a sin anymore?

Well, for masturbation, at least there is a rational explanation that it is a pleasing of SELF and not that one, only one, unique person who is your spouse, who is complimenting you, who is ypur lifelong partner in theosis... For a monogamous and committed and lifelong homosexual marriage, there is no such explanation, other than that "it is not real because it cannot be real because we say so..."

A lot of people also cheat on their spouses, should we just say no big deal to that since everyone does it? Relationships and marriage are similar, since homosexual relations are condemned in the Bible and by the Church, then how can we allow them to marry?

YOU allow THEM???
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Feanor on November 04, 2009, 12:08:47 AM

It is wrong to speak of understanding in this sense, which implies use of Reason. The use of reason is very dangerous when combined with the Orthodox faith. Truth in the sense of Orthodoxy is not really understood so much as it is experienced. Any understanding that is there is not from us and is not projected on to the Holy Scriptures, rather the understanding is given to us from His Revelation, which is guarded by the Church Fathers.

"The Orthodox Church does not endorse the view that the teachings of Christ have changed from time to time; rather that Christianity has remained unaltered from the moment that the Lord delivered the Faith to the Apostles (Matt. 28: 18-20). She affirms that "the faith once delivered to the saints" (Jude 3) is now what it was in the beginning. Orthodox of the twentieth century believe precisely what was believed by Orthodox of the first, the fifth, the tenth, the fifteenth centuries."

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html

The teachings of Christ haven't changed. Christ said nothing about homosexuality, and very little about sexuality at all, really. He said not to look at another person in lust. That's fine. Love =/= lust. Christ's teachings are irrelevant to this issue, because Christ said nothing about this issue at all.

If Christ had actually said, 'sex is morally wrong and should only be used when necessary for the continuation of our species' then we would be having a different discussion altogether. But he didn't.  
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Feanor on November 04, 2009, 12:16:08 AM
Cheating on one's spouse is WRONG because it is a betrayal of trust, a betrayal of love, and it hurts them deeply. It involves deception and betrayal and harm.

Homosexual relations between two consenting adults who are in love is a totally seperate matter. Your analogy does not work in this debate.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: GiC on November 04, 2009, 12:17:53 AM
YOU allow THEM???

That's kinda how the whole religion thing works George ;)

As Ambrose Bierce put it in his 'Devil's Dictionary':

CHRISTIAN, n.
    One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor.

;D
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Super Apostolic Bros. on November 04, 2009, 12:19:57 AM

It is wrong to speak of understanding in this sense, which implies use of Reason. The use of reason is very dangerous when combined with the Orthodox faith. Truth in the sense of Orthodoxy is not really understood so much as it is experienced. Any understanding that is there is not from us and is not projected on to the Holy Scriptures, rather the understanding is given to us from His Revelation, which is guarded by the Church Fathers.

"The Orthodox Church does not endorse the view that the teachings of Christ have changed from time to time; rather that Christianity has remained unaltered from the moment that the Lord delivered the Faith to the Apostles (Matt. 28: 18-20). She affirms that "the faith once delivered to the saints" (Jude 3) is now what it was in the beginning. Orthodox of the twentieth century believe precisely what was believed by Orthodox of the first, the fifth, the tenth, the fifteenth centuries."

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html

The teachings of Christ haven't changed. Christ said nothing about homosexuality, and very little about sexuality at all, really. He said not to look at another person in lust. That's fine. Love =/= lust. Christ's teachings are irrelevant to this issue, because Christ said nothing about this issue at all.

If Christ had actually said, 'sex is morally wrong and should only be used when necessary for the continuation of our species' then we would be having a different discussion altogether. But he didn't.  


Christ never said "Don't wear a duck on your head when shooting potatoes at an abandoned factory," either. Your point is?

The Christian life as outline in the Scriptures is neither about dead legalism nor is about doing what makes you happy or is socially acceptable. It is, however, about living a life holy and pleasing towards God.

Paul easily could have given his blessing to homosexual acts as homosexuality was widespread in the Roman empire. As was idol worship (duh). But he said neither idolaters nor homosexuals have no part in the kingdom of God.

Christians of course cannot force other people to conform to a sanctified way of living. But the institution of the Church exists not only to partake in the Body and Blood of Christ but also for the edification (spiritual, physical and moral) of its members. It is then necessary to give those who transgress over to Satan, as it were, so the transgressors can either choose the way of Satan or realise the error of his/her way and return to the Church.

If the Church's way is too harsh for you, well, atheism lets you do whatever you want and I hear that's quite popular these days.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: John of the North on November 04, 2009, 12:23:44 AM
Or we could recognise that the natural human desires of sexuality have traditionally been perceived as sinful, evil, wrong, etc due to an inherently flawed underpinning philosophy which stemmed from a backwards cultural zeitgeist in ancient Judaea.

Why should we use "backwards cultural zeitgeist" as a scapegoat?? And who says that cultural perspective was flawed?

Quote
Adults who love each other having sex to strengthen their loving bond should not be a sin. It strengthens and expresses love, it hurts no one.

Thank you for your opinion. However, it is quite clear that two people having sex in an relationship that is not blessed by the Church, would have a profoundly negative effect on their spiritual health.

Quote
The argument that homosexuals only have sex out of lust is, quite frankly, rubbish. They have sex for the same reasons that heterosexuals do - and you probably don't need to be reminded that even religious married couples have sex for reasons other than procreation. It strengthens their bond and forms an important part of participating in an intimate act of love within their relationship. Sexuality is healthy and forms a positive part of the human condition.

Sexuality in the proper context.

Quote
However, sexually active homosexual couples are no different from sexually active heterosexual couples in their motivations for having sex.

That's a rather broad--and unprovable--generalization.

Quote
I'm sure if homosexual couples could have kids, they would; but as we know that's not the reason that the vast majority of couples have sex, is it?

Procreation is a main goal of sexual activity.

Quote
I'm sure even the priest at your local parish uses a condom when he has sex with his wife...

That's an inappropriate comment. Not mention that the behaviour of any priest has no bearing on this. His behaviour is not YOUR concern.

Quote
Unless you want to condemn and persecute every heterosexual couple who uses condoms (and thus commit the gross social/moral irresponsibility of Roman Catholics, who tell Africans in AIDS-ravaged nations not to use contraceptives), drop the case.

Actually, contraceptives are not quite as reliable as people think, especially in Africa. Abstinence is the better option.



Quote
The scriptures were written by human beings who were inspired by God, not by God Himself. And like all human beings, the prophets, scribes, Apostles, evangelists, etc were capable of making mistakes or reflecting the cultural attitudes of their time in their works. The deeper spiritual truths of the scriptures don't lie in the literal surface meanings of the words chosen by their authors.

Debateable.

Quote
The only entity who has access to Ultimate Truth is the Ultimate Reality (i.e., God) himself. Men make mistakes. Unless you actually expect me to believe that God dictated every word of the Pentateuch to Moses on Mt Sinai - an idea which archaeological evidence and textual analysis discredits extensively.

The Church is possession of the entirety of God's revelation.

Quote
Christianity has the cause of social justice and humanism at its core, not bigotry. Religion has fostered and promoted bigotry for too long, and it has to stop.

I'm not sure where bigotry enters into anything. The Church is in opposition to homosexual behaviour, not homosexuals themselves. Everyone has a Cross to bear. And as for humanism, that is a philosophical viewpoint that is contrary to Orthodox Christianity.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Asteriktos on November 04, 2009, 12:25:16 AM
Feanor,

I'm guessing you haven't read much on polyamory, because in your couple posts that have touched on more than two people being in a relationship, you haven't described polyarmory at all, but rather are describing swinging or other activities. Given your ideas about love, I don't see what argument you could bring against three people being in love being together. It need not have anything to do with lust, and people in polyamorous relationships often speak of fidelity and honesty as the most important goals for keeping the relationships stable and together.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: John of the North on November 04, 2009, 12:26:16 AM
The teachings of Christ haven't changed. Christ said nothing about homosexuality, and very little about sexuality at all, really. He said not to look at another person in lust. That's fine. Love =/= lust. Christ's teachings are irrelevant to this issue, because Christ said nothing about this issue at all.

If Christ had actually said, 'sex is morally wrong and should only be used when necessary for the continuation of our species' then we would be having a different discussion altogether. But he didn't.

Actually, you don't know if Christ never said anything about homosexuality, because not everything He said or did was in the Bible. Which is why we rely on the Bishops, the clergy, and the Church to communicate the Divine Revelation.

Once again, I'm not really sure what is your whole issue with this. The behaviour of others is not your concern.

Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: GiC on November 04, 2009, 12:28:29 AM
If the Church's way is too harsh for you, well, atheism lets you do whatever you want and I hear that's quite popular these days.

Hey, I'm supposed to be the only one proselytizing for Atheism, but thanks for the assist. ;)

Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Feanor on November 04, 2009, 12:37:03 AM
Quote
Christ never said "Don't wear a duck on your head when shooting potatoes at an abandoned factory," either. Your point is?

Analogy fail. Maybe you should go back to first-year college Philosophy and learn the difference between morality, immorality and amorality.

Quote
The Christian life as outline in the Scriptures is neither about dead legalism nor is about doing what makes you happy or is socially acceptable. It is, however, about living a life holy and pleasing towards God.


Agreed. To get a proper understanding of what constitutes a holy life, we should perhaps examine the scriptures a bit more closely.

Quote
Paul easily could have given his blessing to homosexual acts as homosexuality was widespread in the Roman empire. As was idol worship (duh). But he said neither idolaters nor homosexuals have no part in the kingdom of God.

Yes, Paul said that. Paul was a Jew, and as we know he did and said many things from a Jewish perspective. Judaism did not approve of homosexuality for reasons which make perfect sense in the historical context of the development of Jewish Halakha.

Quote
Christians of course cannot force other people to conform to a sanctified way of living. But the institution of the Church exists not only to partake in the Body and Blood of Christ but also for the edification (spiritual, physical and moral) of its members. It is then necessary to give those who transgress over to Satan, as it were, so the transgressors can either choose the way of Satan or realise the error of his/her way and return to the Church.

If the Church's way is too harsh for you, well, atheism lets you do whatever you want and I hear that's quite popular these days.

Tell me what you think Christ would have said if the Pharisees had brought forth to him a pair of monogamous homosexual lovers? Would he have judged and condemned them? Told them their love was invalid and wrong? "You can't love each other. Stop loving each other and force yourself to love people of the opposite sex instead, or don't love at all." That doesn't sound very Christ-like at all in my opinion.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Feanor on November 04, 2009, 12:41:25 AM
Feanor,

I'm guessing you haven't read much on polyamory, because in your couple posts that have touched on more than two people being in a relationship, you haven't described polyarmory at all, but rather are describing swinging or other activities. Given your ideas about love, I don't see what argument you could bring against three people being in love being together. It need not have anything to do with lust, and people in polyamorous relationships often speak of fidelity and honesty as the most important goals for keeping the relationships stable and together.

I understand what polyamory is, but I don't believe I referred to it in any of my posts. If I did, I was referring to 'swinging', two-timing etc. Polyamory is an entirely different kettle of fish which I didn't mean to bring into this discussion, if it seems I have done so. 
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: John of the North on November 04, 2009, 12:42:42 AM
Tell me what you think Christ would have said if the Pharisees had brought forth to him a pair of monogamous homosexual lovers? Would he have judged and condemned them? Told them their love was invalid and wrong? "You can't love each other. Stop loving each other and force yourself to love people of the opposite sex instead, or don't love at all." That doesn't sound very Christ-like at all in my opinion.

"Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." John 8:11
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Feanor on November 04, 2009, 12:44:24 AM
Once again, I'm not really sure what is your whole issue with this. The behaviour of others is not your concern.

As a Christian, social justice is of my concern. This is the human rights movement of this generation. If this was 1920, you'd be telling me how interracial marriage is sick and wrong, and that those who find themselves in love with someone of another race "have a cross to bear," and I'd be arguing that interracial love is perfectly acceptable.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: John of the North on November 04, 2009, 12:48:53 AM
Once again, I'm not really sure what is your whole issue with this. The behaviour of others is not your concern.

As a Christian, social justice is of my concern. This is the human rights movement of this generation. If this was 1920, you'd be telling me how interracial marriage is sick and wrong, and that those who find themselves in love with someone of another race "have a cross to bear," and I'd be arguing that interracial love is perfectly acceptable.

No. Because our bishops marched with MLK at Selma. Race is not homosexual behaviour. This is not a human rights issue.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: GiC on November 04, 2009, 12:49:14 AM
Tell me what you think Christ would have said if the Pharisees had brought forth to him a pair of monogamous homosexual lovers? Would he have judged and condemned them? Told them their love was invalid and wrong? "You can't love each other. Stop loving each other and force yourself to love people of the opposite sex instead, or don't love at all." That doesn't sound very Christ-like at all in my opinion.

"Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." John 8:11

How do you know he wouldn't have said, 'Love one another as I have loved you' John 15:12?
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: John of the North on November 04, 2009, 12:51:56 AM
Tell me what you think Christ would have said if the Pharisees had brought forth to him a pair of monogamous homosexual lovers? Would he have judged and condemned them? Told them their love was invalid and wrong? "You can't love each other. Stop loving each other and force yourself to love people of the opposite sex instead, or don't love at all." That doesn't sound very Christ-like at all in my opinion.

"Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." John 8:11

How do you know he wouldn't have said, 'Love one another as I have loved you' John 15:12?

I don't. But in reference to a sexual sin, He said "Sin no more." Therefore I identified a quote from a similiar context.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: GiC on November 04, 2009, 12:58:41 AM
Tell me what you think Christ would have said if the Pharisees had brought forth to him a pair of monogamous homosexual lovers? Would he have judged and condemned them? Told them their love was invalid and wrong? "You can't love each other. Stop loving each other and force yourself to love people of the opposite sex instead, or don't love at all." That doesn't sound very Christ-like at all in my opinion.

"Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." John 8:11

How do you know he wouldn't have said, 'Love one another as I have loved you' John 15:12?

I don't. But in reference to a sexual sin, He said "Sin no more." Therefore I identified a quote from a similiar context.

Interesting how the entire point of the parable was a condemnation of judging the actions of others and, yet, you seem to think the important part was about sexual sin...then again, so did the Pharisees.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: John of the North on November 04, 2009, 01:02:03 AM
Tell me what you think Christ would have said if the Pharisees had brought forth to him a pair of monogamous homosexual lovers? Would he have judged and condemned them? Told them their love was invalid and wrong? "You can't love each other. Stop loving each other and force yourself to love people of the opposite sex instead, or don't love at all." That doesn't sound very Christ-like at all in my opinion.

"Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." John 8:11

How do you know he wouldn't have said, 'Love one another as I have loved you' John 15:12?

I don't. But in reference to a sexual sin, He said "Sin no more." Therefore I identified a quote from a similiar context.

Interesting how the entire point of the parable was a condemnation of judging the actions of others and, yet, you seem to think the important part was about sexual sin...then again, so did the Pharisees.

I didn't say the most important part of the parable was sexual sin. Nor did I actually quote the whole parable. I quoted a specific directive from the Lord to not sin. That is all.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: GiC on November 04, 2009, 01:05:57 AM
Tell me what you think Christ would have said if the Pharisees had brought forth to him a pair of monogamous homosexual lovers? Would he have judged and condemned them? Told them their love was invalid and wrong? "You can't love each other. Stop loving each other and force yourself to love people of the opposite sex instead, or don't love at all." That doesn't sound very Christ-like at all in my opinion.

"Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." John 8:11

How do you know he wouldn't have said, 'Love one another as I have loved you' John 15:12?

I don't. But in reference to a sexual sin, He said "Sin no more." Therefore I identified a quote from a similiar context.

Interesting how the entire point of the parable was a condemnation of judging the actions of others and, yet, you seem to think the important part was about sexual sin...then again, so did the Pharisees.

I didn't say the most important part of the parable was sexual sin. Nor did I actually quote the whole parable. I quoted a specific directive from the Lord to not sin. That is all.

And, yet, you did so without offering any textual evidence that Jesus was actually opposed to homosexuality, yes we know Judaic law was and we know Paul was, but the historical Jesus was something of a social revolutionary...it's not really fair to go around putting words in his mouth when you don't really know what he believed about the matter.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: John of the North on November 04, 2009, 01:08:51 AM
And, yet, you did so without offering any textual evidence that Jesus was actually opposed to homosexuality, yes we know Judaic law was and we know Paul was, but the historical Jesus was something of a social revolutionary...it's not really fair to go around putting words in his mouth when you don't really know what he believed about the matter.

You are correct. I hereby retract the above.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Gebre Menfes Kidus on November 04, 2009, 01:23:54 AM
Tell me what you think Christ would have said if the Pharisees had brought forth to him a pair of monogamous homosexual lovers? Would he have judged and condemned them? Told them their love was invalid and wrong? "You can't love each other. Stop loving each other and force yourself to love people of the opposite sex instead, or don't love at all." That doesn't sound very Christ-like at all in my opinion.

"Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." John 8:11

How do you know he wouldn't have said, 'Love one another as I have loved you' John 15:12?

I don't. But in reference to a sexual sin, He said "Sin no more." Therefore I identified a quote from a similiar context.

Interesting how the entire point of the parable was a condemnation of judging the actions of others and, yet, you seem to think the important part was about sexual sin...then again, so did the Pharisees.

I didn't say the most important part of the parable was sexual sin. Nor did I actually quote the whole parable. I quoted a specific directive from the Lord to not sin. That is all.

And, yet, you did so without offering any textual evidence that Jesus was actually opposed to homosexuality, yes we know Judaic law was and we know Paul was, but the historical Jesus was something of a social revolutionary...it's not really fair to go around putting words in his mouth when you don't really know what he believed about the matter.

The "historical Jesus" is the Jesus that is worshiped and followed by Orthodox Christians. As Orthodox Christians, we do not pit St. Paul against Our Lord, or Our Lord against the prophets of the Old Testament. Apart from the Orthodox Church, one can create their own subjective "Jesus" and make him into any idol they wish. But to do so is a great danger, and leads to all mannner of heresies and evil.

Christ Our Lord is the Author of the sacred Scriptures, and thus we must understand everything in the Bible in the Light of Orthodox teaching and Tradition. We cannot pick and choose certain teachings of Christ that accomodate our own personal worldview and discard the rest. That is not Orthdox. (And I do realize that you may not be Orthodox, so I am simply reiterating our Orthodox position.)

On a personal note, I must say that I always find it extremely offensive when people try to equate homosexual marriage with the civil rights movement. I am a "white" man who is married to an African American woman. We have three children. We live in Mississippi, and my father-in-law has lived through some of the most egregious forms of prejudice and racism that you could imagine. Homosexuals have not been used as chattel slaves, they have not been forced to live in the inhumane conditions of a segregated society, they have not been routinely lyched, and they do not experience oppression because of an inherent physical trait that cannot be changed. Homosexuals have every right that anyone else has in this society. So this is not the great social justice or human rights issue of our time. If you really want to know who is truly being oppressed, tortured, brutalized without any recourse to the law, it's the unborn children in the womb. Abortion is the great human rights issue of our day, and Dr. King would be saying the same if he hadn't been so brutally assassinated.

Selam  
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: GiC on November 04, 2009, 01:49:23 AM
Tell me what you think Christ would have said if the Pharisees had brought forth to him a pair of monogamous homosexual lovers? Would he have judged and condemned them? Told them their love was invalid and wrong? "You can't love each other. Stop loving each other and force yourself to love people of the opposite sex instead, or don't love at all." That doesn't sound very Christ-like at all in my opinion.

"Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." John 8:11

How do you know he wouldn't have said, 'Love one another as I have loved you' John 15:12?

I don't. But in reference to a sexual sin, He said "Sin no more." Therefore I identified a quote from a similiar context.

Interesting how the entire point of the parable was a condemnation of judging the actions of others and, yet, you seem to think the important part was about sexual sin...then again, so did the Pharisees.

I didn't say the most important part of the parable was sexual sin. Nor did I actually quote the whole parable. I quoted a specific directive from the Lord to not sin. That is all.

And, yet, you did so without offering any textual evidence that Jesus was actually opposed to homosexuality, yes we know Judaic law was and we know Paul was, but the historical Jesus was something of a social revolutionary...it's not really fair to go around putting words in his mouth when you don't really know what he believed about the matter.

The "historical Jesus" is the Jesus that is worshiped and followed by Orthodox Christians. As Orthodox Christians, we do not pit St. Paul against Our Lord, or Our Lord against the prophets of the Old Testament. Apart from the Orthodox Church, one can create their own subjective "Jesus" and make him into any idol they wish. But to do so is a great danger, and leads to all mannner of heresies and evil.

Christ Our Lord is the Author of the sacred Scriptures, and thus we must understand everything in the Bible in the Light of Orthodox teaching and Tradition. We cannot pick and choose certain teachings of Christ that accomodate our own personal worldview and discard the rest. That is not Orthdox. (And I do realize that you may not be Orthodox, so I am simply reiterating our Orthodox position.)

Rather than putting words in people's mouth why not just stick to the documentation? Feel free to say that your church teaches x, y, and z. But there is no record of Jesus' position on homosexuality, if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside to think he agreed with you, fine...but to state it as though it were a fact, that's just being dishonest.

Quote
On a personal note, I must say that I always find it extremely offensive when people try to equate homosexual marriage with the civil rights movement. I am a "white" man who is married to an African American woman. We have three children. We live in Mississippi, and my father-in-law has lived through some of the most egregious forms of prejudice and racism that you could imagine. Homosexuals have not been used as chattel slaves, they have not been forced to live in the inhumane conditions of a segregated society, they have not been routinely lyched, and they do not experience oppression because of an inherent physical trait that cannot be changed. Homosexuals have every right that anyone else has in this society. So this is not the great social justice or human rights issue of our time. If you really want to know who is truly being oppressed, tortured, brutalized without any recourse to the law, it's the unborn children in the womb. Abortion is the great human rights issue of our day, and Dr. King would be saying the same if he hadn't been so brutally assassinated.

I'm a pretty offensive person, so, not to be too frank about it, but I don't really care if my opinions offend you; that's the great thing about freedom of speech. Furthermore, this whole dishonesty thing's getting pretty tiresome: 'Homosexuals...have not been routinely lyched, and they do not experience oppression because of an inherent physical trait that cannot be changed.' I mean, you have access to the internet and all, don't you? Google can provide you with hundreds of stories of homosexuals being lynched, many of them sanctioned by states in which they had the misfortune of living. And oppression has not always been confined to other countries, we've had our fair share of murders here in the West and not too long ago it was even sanctioned by Western states. Alan Turing committed suicide most likely due to depression caused by forced hormone therapy in England, forced on him for being gay, a great shame as he was one of the most brilliant minds of the 20th century...to cause his life to end early was perhaps one of the greatest crimes against all of humanity in history.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Gebre Menfes Kidus on November 04, 2009, 01:59:27 AM
Tell me what you think Christ would have said if the Pharisees had brought forth to him a pair of monogamous homosexual lovers? Would he have judged and condemned them? Told them their love was invalid and wrong? "You can't love each other. Stop loving each other and force yourself to love people of the opposite sex instead, or don't love at all." That doesn't sound very Christ-like at all in my opinion.

"Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." John 8:11

How do you know he wouldn't have said, 'Love one another as I have loved you' John 15:12?

I don't. But in reference to a sexual sin, He said "Sin no more." Therefore I identified a quote from a similiar context.

Interesting how the entire point of the parable was a condemnation of judging the actions of others and, yet, you seem to think the important part was about sexual sin...then again, so did the Pharisees.

I didn't say the most important part of the parable was sexual sin. Nor did I actually quote the whole parable. I quoted a specific directive from the Lord to not sin. That is all.

And, yet, you did so without offering any textual evidence that Jesus was actually opposed to homosexuality, yes we know Judaic law was and we know Paul was, but the historical Jesus was something of a social revolutionary...it's not really fair to go around putting words in his mouth when you don't really know what he believed about the matter.

The "historical Jesus" is the Jesus that is worshiped and followed by Orthodox Christians. As Orthodox Christians, we do not pit St. Paul against Our Lord, or Our Lord against the prophets of the Old Testament. Apart from the Orthodox Church, one can create their own subjective "Jesus" and make him into any idol they wish. But to do so is a great danger, and leads to all mannner of heresies and evil.

Christ Our Lord is the Author of the sacred Scriptures, and thus we must understand everything in the Bible in the Light of Orthodox teaching and Tradition. We cannot pick and choose certain teachings of Christ that accomodate our own personal worldview and discard the rest. That is not Orthdox. (And I do realize that you may not be Orthodox, so I am simply reiterating our Orthodox position.)

Rather than putting words in people's mouth why not just stick to the documentation? Feel free to say that your church teaches x, y, and z. But there is no record of Jesus' position on homosexuality, if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside to think he agreed with you, fine...but to state it as though it were a fact, that's just being dishonest.

Quote
On a personal note, I must say that I always find it extremely offensive when people try to equate homosexual marriage with the civil rights movement. I am a "white" man who is married to an African American woman. We have three children. We live in Mississippi, and my father-in-law has lived through some of the most egregious forms of prejudice and racism that you could imagine. Homosexuals have not been used as chattel slaves, they have not been forced to live in the inhumane conditions of a segregated society, they have not been routinely lyched, and they do not experience oppression because of an inherent physical trait that cannot be changed. Homosexuals have every right that anyone else has in this society. So this is not the great social justice or human rights issue of our time. If you really want to know who is truly being oppressed, tortured, brutalized without any recourse to the law, it's the unborn children in the womb. Abortion is the great human rights issue of our day, and Dr. King would be saying the same if he hadn't been so brutally assassinated.

I'm a pretty offensive person, so, not to be too frank about it, but I don't really care if my opinions offend you; that's the great thing about freedom of speech. Furthermore, this whole dishonesty thing's getting pretty tiresome: 'Homosexuals...have not been routinely lyched, and they do not experience oppression because of an inherent physical trait that cannot be changed.' I mean, you have access to the internet and all, don't you? Google can provide you with hundreds of stories of homosexuals being lynched, many of them sanctioned by states in which they had the misfortune of living. And oppression has not always been confined to other countries, we've had our fair share of murders here in the West and not too long ago it was even sanctioned by Western states. Alan Turing committed suicide most likely due to depression caused by forced hormone therapy in England, forced on him for being gay, a great shame as he was one of the most brilliant minds of the 20th century...to cause his life to end early was perhaps one of the greatest crimes against all of humanity in history.

Orthodoxy does not condone homosexuality, not does it condemn homosexuals. Now, if you feel so strongly about justifying homosexual behavior, promoting homosexual marriage, and proliferating homosexaul propaganda, then leave Orthodoxy alone and go start a cult and worship the idolatrous sodomite hippie "Jesus" of your own vain imagination.

Selam
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: John of the North on November 04, 2009, 02:00:30 AM
Tell me what you think Christ would have said if the Pharisees had brought forth to him a pair of monogamous homosexual lovers? Would he have judged and condemned them? Told them their love was invalid and wrong? "You can't love each other. Stop loving each other and force yourself to love people of the opposite sex instead, or don't love at all." That doesn't sound very Christ-like at all in my opinion.

"Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." John 8:11

How do you know he wouldn't have said, 'Love one another as I have loved you' John 15:12?

I don't. But in reference to a sexual sin, He said "Sin no more." Therefore I identified a quote from a similiar context.

Interesting how the entire point of the parable was a condemnation of judging the actions of others and, yet, you seem to think the important part was about sexual sin...then again, so did the Pharisees.

I didn't say the most important part of the parable was sexual sin. Nor did I actually quote the whole parable. I quoted a specific directive from the Lord to not sin. That is all.

And, yet, you did so without offering any textual evidence that Jesus was actually opposed to homosexuality, yes we know Judaic law was and we know Paul was, but the historical Jesus was something of a social revolutionary...it's not really fair to go around putting words in his mouth when you don't really know what he believed about the matter.

The "historical Jesus" is the Jesus that is worshiped and followed by Orthodox Christians. As Orthodox Christians, we do not pit St. Paul against Our Lord, or Our Lord against the prophets of the Old Testament. Apart from the Orthodox Church, one can create their own subjective "Jesus" and make him into any idol they wish. But to do so is a great danger, and leads to all mannner of heresies and evil.

Christ Our Lord is the Author of the sacred Scriptures, and thus we must understand everything in the Bible in the Light of Orthodox teaching and Tradition. We cannot pick and choose certain teachings of Christ that accomodate our own personal worldview and discard the rest. That is not Orthdox. (And I do realize that you may not be Orthodox, so I am simply reiterating our Orthodox position.)

Rather than putting words in people's mouth why not just stick to the documentation? Feel free to say that your church teaches x, y, and z. But there is no record of Jesus' position on homosexuality, if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside to think he agreed with you, fine...but to state it as though it were a fact, that's just being dishonest.

Quote
On a personal note, I must say that I always find it extremely offensive when people try to equate homosexual marriage with the civil rights movement. I am a "white" man who is married to an African American woman. We have three children. We live in Mississippi, and my father-in-law has lived through some of the most egregious forms of prejudice and racism that you could imagine. Homosexuals have not been used as chattel slaves, they have not been forced to live in the inhumane conditions of a segregated society, they have not been routinely lyched, and they do not experience oppression because of an inherent physical trait that cannot be changed. Homosexuals have every right that anyone else has in this society. So this is not the great social justice or human rights issue of our time. If you really want to know who is truly being oppressed, tortured, brutalized without any recourse to the law, it's the unborn children in the womb. Abortion is the great human rights issue of our day, and Dr. King would be saying the same if he hadn't been so brutally assassinated.

I'm a pretty offensive person, so, not to be too frank about it, but I don't really care if my opinions offend you; that's the great thing about freedom of speech. Furthermore, this whole dishonesty thing's getting pretty tiresome: 'Homosexuals...have not been routinely lyched, and they do not experience oppression because of an inherent physical trait that cannot be changed.' I mean, you have access to the internet and all, don't you? Google can provide you with hundreds of stories of homosexuals being lynched, many of them sanctioned by states in which they had the misfortune of living. And oppression has not always been confined to other countries, we've had our fair share of murders here in the West and not too long ago it was even sanctioned by Western states. Alan Turing committed suicide most likely due to depression caused by forced hormone therapy in England, forced on him for being gay, a great shame as he was one of the most brilliant minds of the 20th century...to cause his life to end early was perhaps one of the greatest crimes against all of humanity in history.

Orthodoxy does not condone homosexuality, not does it condemn homosexuals. Now, if you feel so strongly about justifying homosexual behavior, promoting homosexual marriage, and proliferating homosexaul propaganda, then leave Orthodoxy alone and go start a cult and worship the idolatrous sodomite hippie "Jesus" of your own vain imagination.

Selam

Gebre. Unspoken forum rule: do not bait GiC. Do not let him get to you.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: Feanor on November 04, 2009, 02:02:35 AM
On a personal note, I must say that I always find it extremely offensive when people try to equate homosexual marriage with the civil rights movement. I am a "white" man who is married to an African American woman. We have three children. We live in Mississippi, and my father-in-law has lived through some of the most egregious forms of prejudice and racism that you could imagine. Homosexuals have not been used as chattel slaves, they have not been forced to live in the inhumane conditions of a segregated society, they have not been routinely lyched, and they do not experience oppression because of an inherent physical trait that cannot be changed. Homosexuals have every right that anyone else has in this society. So this is not the great social justice or human rights issue of our time. If you really want to know who is truly being oppressed, tortured, brutalized without any recourse to the law, it's the unborn children in the womb. Abortion is the great human rights issue of our day, and Dr. King would be saying the same if he hadn't been so brutally assassinated.

You think homosexuals haven't been subject to disgusting persecution and discrimination throughout the history of the world? Gays are still persecuted by civil authorities in many parts of the world, executed in others, and ''correctively raped" in some countries. Homosexuals were there with Jews in Auschwitz - over 15,000 gay men and women were killed in the Holocaust, and many more were castrated, beaten, and used in hormone experiments conducted by SS doctors. Homosexuals, including young teenagers, were persecuted, tortured and executed by Christian authorities all throughout the Middle Ages, and today Sharia Law still permits and enables the execution of homosexuals in many countries. Even in countries where homosexuality is legal, gays and lesbians are still subject to bashings, discrimination and bullying. My aunt was an open lesbian at age sixteen, and was brutally bashed by several older boys from her rural community. A gay boy at the school I went to was regularly bullied by homophobic students, and the school did nothing to protect him - yet when a white student called a black student a 'black cunt' he was expelled. It was a definite double-standard. Homosexuals have been persecuted and harrassed greatly throughout history, and the church's condemnation of them is just an example of this. Do I need to remind you of victims such as Matthew Shepard, among thousands of others, who have been murdered or attacked in your very own society?

And NO, homosexuals do NOT have 'every right that anyone else has in this society.' They can't get married, even by secular civil authorities in a registrry office, far away from any conservative church. That's discrimination.

If Christians are not willing to grand homosexuals permission to marry within their church, they should at least defend their right to be safe, welcomed and accepted within secular society. It's not an issue you can dismiss and still call yourself a follower of Jesus Christ - the same applies to all human rights causes, whether they are racism, abortion, capital punishment, women's rights, slavery, human trafficking, etc.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: GiC on November 04, 2009, 02:05:02 AM
Tell me what you think Christ would have said if the Pharisees had brought forth to him a pair of monogamous homosexual lovers? Would he have judged and condemned them? Told them their love was invalid and wrong? "You can't love each other. Stop loving each other and force yourself to love people of the opposite sex instead, or don't love at all." That doesn't sound very Christ-like at all in my opinion.

"Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." John 8:11

How do you know he wouldn't have said, 'Love one another as I have loved you' John 15:12?

I don't. But in reference to a sexual sin, He said "Sin no more." Therefore I identified a quote from a similiar context.

Interesting how the entire point of the parable was a condemnation of judging the actions of others and, yet, you seem to think the important part was about sexual sin...then again, so did the Pharisees.

I didn't say the most important part of the parable was sexual sin. Nor did I actually quote the whole parable. I quoted a specific directive from the Lord to not sin. That is all.

And, yet, you did so without offering any textual evidence that Jesus was actually opposed to homosexuality, yes we know Judaic law was and we know Paul was, but the historical Jesus was something of a social revolutionary...it's not really fair to go around putting words in his mouth when you don't really know what he believed about the matter.

The "historical Jesus" is the Jesus that is worshiped and followed by Orthodox Christians. As Orthodox Christians, we do not pit St. Paul against Our Lord, or Our Lord against the prophets of the Old Testament. Apart from the Orthodox Church, one can create their own subjective "Jesus" and make him into any idol they wish. But to do so is a great danger, and leads to all mannner of heresies and evil.

Christ Our Lord is the Author of the sacred Scriptures, and thus we must understand everything in the Bible in the Light of Orthodox teaching and Tradition. We cannot pick and choose certain teachings of Christ that accomodate our own personal worldview and discard the rest. That is not Orthdox. (And I do realize that you may not be Orthodox, so I am simply reiterating our Orthodox position.)

Rather than putting words in people's mouth why not just stick to the documentation? Feel free to say that your church teaches x, y, and z. But there is no record of Jesus' position on homosexuality, if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside to think he agreed with you, fine...but to state it as though it were a fact, that's just being dishonest.

Quote
On a personal note, I must say that I always find it extremely offensive when people try to equate homosexual marriage with the civil rights movement. I am a "white" man who is married to an African American woman. We have three children. We live in Mississippi, and my father-in-law has lived through some of the most egregious forms of prejudice and racism that you could imagine. Homosexuals have not been used as chattel slaves, they have not been forced to live in the inhumane conditions of a segregated society, they have not been routinely lyched, and they do not experience oppression because of an inherent physical trait that cannot be changed. Homosexuals have every right that anyone else has in this society. So this is not the great social justice or human rights issue of our time. If you really want to know who is truly being oppressed, tortured, brutalized without any recourse to the law, it's the unborn children in the womb. Abortion is the great human rights issue of our day, and Dr. King would be saying the same if he hadn't been so brutally assassinated.

I'm a pretty offensive person, so, not to be too frank about it, but I don't really care if my opinions offend you; that's the great thing about freedom of speech. Furthermore, this whole dishonesty thing's getting pretty tiresome: 'Homosexuals...have not been routinely lyched, and they do not experience oppression because of an inherent physical trait that cannot be changed.' I mean, you have access to the internet and all, don't you? Google can provide you with hundreds of stories of homosexuals being lynched, many of them sanctioned by states in which they had the misfortune of living. And oppression has not always been confined to other countries, we've had our fair share of murders here in the West and not too long ago it was even sanctioned by Western states. Alan Turing committed suicide most likely due to depression caused by forced hormone therapy in England, forced on him for being gay, a great shame as he was one of the most brilliant minds of the 20th century...to cause his life to end early was perhaps one of the greatest crimes against all of humanity in history.

Orthodoxy does not condone homosexuality, not does it condemn homosexuals. Now, if you feel so strongly about justifying homosexual behavior, promoting homosexual marriage, and proliferating homosexaul propaganda, then leave Orthodoxy alone and go start a cult and worship the idolatrous sodomite hippie "Jesus" of your own vain imagination.

Selam

Well, being a cult leader could be fun...but I just settled for atheism. I know, kinda boring, but what can I say? If I was that interesting I wouldn't be spending time on an internet forum.
Title: Re: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread
Post by: GiC on November 04, 2009, 02:07:36 AM
Tell me what you think Christ would have said if the Pharisees had brought forth to him a pair of monogamous homosexual lovers? Would he have judged and condemned them? Told them their love was invalid and wrong? "You can't love each other. Stop loving each other and force yourself to love people of the opposite sex instead, or don't love at all." That doesn't sound very Christ-like at all in my opinion.

"Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." John 8:11

How do you know he wouldn't have said, 'Love one another as I have loved you' John 15:12?

I don't. But in reference to a sexual sin, He said "Sin no more." Therefore I identified a quote from a similiar context.

Interesting how the entire point of the parable was a condemnation of judging the actions of others and, yet, you seem to think the important part was about sexual sin...then again, so did the Pharisees.

I didn't say the most important part of the parable was sexual sin. Nor did I actually quote the whole parable. I quoted a specific directive from the Lord to not sin. That is all.

And, yet, you did so without offering any textual evidence that Jesus was actually opposed to homosexuality, yes we know Judaic law was and we know Paul was, but the historical Jesus was something of a social revolutionary...it's not really fair to go around putting words in his mouth when you don't really know what he believed about the matter.

The "historical Jesus" is the Jesus that is worshiped and followed by Orthodox Christians. As Orthodox Christians, we do not pit St. Paul against Our Lord, or Our Lord against the prophets of the Old Testament. Apart from the Orthodox Church, one can create their own subjective "Jesus" and make him into any idol they wish. But to do so is a great danger, and leads to all mannner of heresies and evil.

Christ Our Lord is the Author of the sacred Scriptures, and thus we must understand everything in the Bible in the Light of Orthodox teaching and Tradition. We cannot pick and choose certain teachings of Christ that accomodate our own personal worldview and discard the rest. That is not Orthdox. (And I do realize that you may not be Orthodox, so I am simply reiterating our Orthodox position.)

Rather than putting words in people's mouth why not just stick to the documentation? Feel free to say that your church teaches x, y, and z. But there is no record of Jesus' position on homosexuality, if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside to think he agreed with you, fine...but to state it as though it were a fact, that's just being dishonest.

Quote
On a personal note, I must say that I always find it extremely offensive when people try to equate homosexual marriage with the civil rights movement. I am a "white" man who is married to an African American woman. We have three children. We live in Mississippi, and my father-in-law has lived through some of the most egregious forms of prejudice and racism that you could imagine. Homosexuals have not been used as chattel slaves, they have not been forced to live in the inhumane conditions of a segregated society, they have not been routinely lyched, and they do not experience oppression because of an inherent physical trait that cannot be changed. Homosexuals have every right that anyone else has in this society. So this is not the great social justice or human rights issue of our time. If you really want to know who is truly being oppressed, tortured, brutalized without any recourse to the law, it's the unborn children in the womb. Abortion is the great human rights issue of our day, and Dr. King would be saying the same if he hadn't been so brutally assassinated.

I'm a pretty offensive person, so, not to be too frank about it, but I don't really care if my opinions offend you; that's the great thing about freedom of speech. Furthermore, this whole dishonesty thing's getting pretty tiresome: 'Homosexuals...have not been routinely lyched, and they do not experience oppression because of an inherent physical trait that cannot be changed.' I mean, you have access to the internet and all, don't you? Google can provide you with hundreds of stories of homosexuals being lynched, many of them sanctioned by states in which they had the misfortune of living. And oppression has not always been confined to other countries, we've had our fair share of murders here in the West and not too long ago it was even sanctioned by Western states. Alan Turing committed suicide most likely due to depression caused by forced hormone therapy in England, forced on him for being gay, a great shame as he was one of the most brilliant minds of the 20th century...to cause his life to end early was perh