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General Forums => Reviews => Topic started by: Asteriktos on October 17, 2012, 08:56:17 PM

Title: Multiple Marriages
Post by: Asteriktos on October 17, 2012, 08:56:17 PM
Are there any Orthodox books which deal with multiple marriages, preferrably touching upon 2nd marriages after the death of a spouse? I've read a few works on widows in the Fathers (Sts. Ambrose, John Chrysostom and Augustine), but I'd like to read something a bit more comprehensive/detailed.
Title: Re: Multiple Marriages
Post by: Asteriktos on October 18, 2012, 08:25:46 PM
Anyone?

Don't tell me I have to do the legwork myself. Please?  :angel:
Title: Re: Multiple Marriages
Post by: Orthodox11 on October 18, 2012, 08:32:19 PM
What exactly are you looking for? Spiritual advice for those looking to remarry, or merely the general view on when remarriage is deemed appropriate?
Title: Re: Multiple Marriages
Post by: Asteriktos on October 18, 2012, 08:34:36 PM
I guess something comprehensive... sort of anything and everything. I've read a few works and canons, but it's from very few sources, mainly limited to the 4th-5th centuries, and I'd like to get a broader of understanding of what the Church says about remarrying.
Title: Re: Multiple Marriages
Post by: Shiny on October 18, 2012, 08:43:10 PM
Ugh, I was just reading something about second marriages and those about after death. Something involving a penance.
Title: Re: Multiple Marriages
Post by: Shanghaiski on October 18, 2012, 09:22:30 PM
The Orthodox Guide to the Galaxy has this to say about multiple marriages: Avoid, if at all possible.
Title: Re: Multiple Marriages
Post by: serb1389 on October 18, 2012, 09:22:56 PM
If you just put "divorce and remarriage in the early church" into google you will get some great results.

Also this article comes up which has a nice & simple overview

http://www.theologicalstudies.org.uk/article_divorce_snuth.html
Title: Re: Multiple Marriages
Post by: Nephi on October 18, 2012, 11:31:29 PM
If you just put "divorce and remarriage in the early church" into google you will get some great results.

Also this article comes up which has a nice & simple overview

http://www.theologicalstudies.org.uk/article_divorce_snuth.html

So did the early church (at least some) believe in an eternal marriage? That's what some of those quotes seem to imply, interestingly enough.
Title: Re: Multiple Marriages
Post by: Asteriktos on October 18, 2012, 11:34:43 PM
Thanks!

If you just put "divorce and remarriage in the early church" into google you will get some great results.

Also this article comes up which has a nice & simple overview

http://www.theologicalstudies.org.uk/article_divorce_snuth.html

So did the early church (at least some) believe in an eternal marriage? That's what some of those quotes seem to imply, interestingly enough.

We've discussed that in the past (for example, here (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,27306.0.html)), but not really reached a consensus I think.
Title: Re: Multiple Marriages
Post by: ialmisry on October 18, 2012, 11:35:39 PM
If you just put "divorce and remarriage in the early church" into google you will get some great results.

Also this article comes up which has a nice & simple overview

http://www.theologicalstudies.org.uk/article_divorce_snuth.html
It lacks an Orthodox element, however, Father.
Title: Re: Multiple Marriages
Post by: Nephi on October 18, 2012, 11:45:13 PM
Thanks!

So did the early church (at least some) believe in an eternal marriage? That's what some of those quotes seem to imply, interestingly enough.

We've discussed that in the past (for example, here (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,27306.0.html)), but not really reached a consensus I think.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Multiple Marriages
Post by: Orthodox11 on October 19, 2012, 10:37:11 AM
Hardly comprehensive, but a quote I happened to have at hand:

"Let not those who have been but once married, set at nought them who have involved themselves in a second marriage. Continence is indeed a noble thing and an admirable one; yet we should make allowance  for a second marriage, that the weak may not commit fornication. It is good for them if they abide even as I, says the Apostle, but if they cannot contain, let them remarry; it is better to marry than to burn." St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 4:26
Title: Re: Multiple Marriages
Post by: Marc1152 on October 19, 2012, 10:40:27 AM
Are there any Orthodox books which deal with multiple marriages, preferrably touching upon 2nd marriages after the death of a spouse? I've read a few works on widows in the Fathers (Sts. Ambrose, John Chrysostom and Augustine), but I'd like to read something a bit more comprehensive/detailed.

Unfortunately I have been through exactly that situation.

Is the reposed wife Orthodox? That would be a pivotal question and was the wedding performed in an Orthodox Church? 
Title: Re: Multiple Marriages
Post by: Cyrillic on October 19, 2012, 10:49:25 AM
Anyone?

Don't tell me I have to do the legwork myself. Please?  :angel:

I once read something about it in St. Jerome's epistles. Do you want me to go and look for it?
Title: Re: Multiple Marriages
Post by: JorgenThorbjørnsen on October 19, 2012, 01:29:34 PM
Personally, if I got a divorce, I would not get remarried. Same if my spouse died. But, that is something that people should refer to their spiritual father about.
Title: Re: Multiple Marriages
Post by: HabteSelassie on October 19, 2012, 02:34:20 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Aren't we forgetting about the concepts of Repentance (Reconciliation) and Absolution? If our sins are truly obliterated and forgotten, how should things like divorce somehow bar us from marrying again?  I'm not talking about in the holy-roller kind of way, rather, if folks have seriously under the guidance of their Spiritual Fathers worked towards sincere Repentance after having also and truly given their all in reconciling their previous marriage?  Should folks be held accountable for sins which have been Absolved?

Also, we should consider the economic and political changes in our modern society which have made a fundamentalist approach to the Canons inappropriate.  Society as a whole was structured around marriage, both in land tenure, employment, control of financial assets, familial roles, and community involvement.  It is not that women were entirely subject to men, or that men were entirely subject to women, but that both genders had specific societal roles which were dictated around marriage.  In our modern world, so many folks are raised by single parents, so many Marriages are more symbolic than literal unions, so many families, cultures, and social support systems today are evolved around single parenting, specifically women.  In a weird way, the modern world (not just Western but the "developing world" too) is almost seemingly shifting towards favoring a Matriarchy.  Sure hard power is still enforced largely through male roles, however increasingly women are heads of households, are the primary care-giver, and further are actively involved in government, in politics, and in society as a whole.  Its not that women's roles were ever negated, however they previously under the Patriarchy model were more nuanced and subtle, today they are more overt and recognized.  This shifts how we deal with divorce then.  If our society as a whole, particularly those outside of the Church, is structured around independence and also around the significance of women in the family unit, then is it beneficial for the Church to stick with an anachronistic approach to marriage?  I am not advocating that we suddenly become divorce friendly, but rather, that we as a Christian community focus more on the flexibility of love, compassion, and forgiveness rather than sticking to a fundamentalist approach to the Canons, one which seems always to have been discouraged by the Fathers example. 



stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: Multiple Marriages
Post by: choy on October 19, 2012, 02:45:32 PM
Isn't divorce and remarriage covered in Fr. John Meyendorff's book?

http://www.amazon.com/Marriage-Orthodox-Perspective-John-Meyendorff/dp/0913836052/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350672440&sr=8-1&keywords=Marriage%3A+an+orthodox
Title: Re: Multiple Marriages
Post by: Shanghaiski on October 19, 2012, 10:34:55 PM
If you just put "divorce and remarriage in the early church" into google you will get some great results.

Also this article comes up which has a nice & simple overview

http://www.theologicalstudies.org.uk/article_divorce_snuth.html

So did the early church (at least some) believe in an eternal marriage? That's what some of those quotes seem to imply, interestingly enough.

No. Eternal marriage, AFAIK, was never preached by the Church. Perhaps by individuals here and there, but so was millenialism.
Title: Re: Multiple Marriages
Post by: Kerdy on October 19, 2012, 10:44:31 PM
Hardly comprehensive, but a quote I happened to have at hand:

"Let not those who have been but once married, set at nought them who have involved themselves in a second marriage. Continence is indeed a noble thing and an admirable one; yet we should make allowance  for a second marriage, that the weak may not commit fornication. It is good for them if they abide even as I, says the Apostle, but if they cannot contain, let them remarry; it is better to marry than to burn." St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 4:26

This works for me.  Basically, not getting remarried is preferred, but if one is going to engage in fornication because one is unable to discipline oneself from animal instincts, remarry and not sin.

I don’t imagine I would ever have the desire to be in a relationship again if something happened to my wife.  Women are too much work and trouble. :laugh:
Title: Re: Multiple Marriages
Post by: choy on October 20, 2012, 01:08:11 AM
Isn't divorce and remarriage covered in Fr. John Meyendorff's book?

http://www.amazon.com/Marriage-Orthodox-Perspective-John-Meyendorff/dp/0913836052/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350672440&sr=8-1&keywords=Marriage%3A+an+orthodox

I just checked and its there.  GO AND BUY IT  ;D :P
Title: Re: Multiple Marriages
Post by: serb1389 on October 20, 2012, 08:08:24 PM
If you just put "divorce and remarriage in the early church" into google you will get some great results.

Also this article comes up which has a nice & simple overview

http://www.theologicalstudies.org.uk/article_divorce_snuth.html
It lacks an Orthodox element, however, Father.

yah i know, i was on my phone & I just wanted to throw something out there & the OP sounded desperate. 
Title: Re: Multiple Marriages
Post by: Asteriktos on October 20, 2012, 08:12:03 PM
yah i know, i was on my phone & I just wanted to throw something out there & the OP sounded desperate. 

Only if I've been desparate for over 3 years... that's how long I've been thinking about it  ;D

But thank you all for the suggestions, and thank you for the offer Cyrillic but I'll end up combing through them since I think I'll just go through all the ccel stuff to see what turns up.
Title: Re: Multiple Marriages
Post by: serb1389 on October 20, 2012, 08:14:06 PM
yah i know, i was on my phone & I just wanted to throw something out there & the OP sounded desperate. 

Only if I've been desparate for over 3 years... that's how long I've been thinking about it  ;D

But thank you all for the suggestions, and thank you for the offer Cyrillic but I'll end up combing through them since I think I'll just go through all the ccel stuff to see what turns up.

sorry for offering a half hearted effort Asteriktos. 
Title: Re: Multiple Marriages
Post by: Asteriktos on October 20, 2012, 08:16:58 PM
:( Why did you apologize? Now I feel bad  :police:
Title: Re: Multiple Marriages
Post by: serb1389 on October 20, 2012, 10:15:53 PM
:( Why did you apologize? Now I feel bad  :police:

because I did a bad job & I'm an honest person.  I preach forgiveness & repentance all day.  it would be pretty bad if I didn't offer it myself (that would by hypocrisy!)
Title: Re: Multiple Marriages
Post by: JorgenThorbjørnsen on October 21, 2012, 11:28:40 AM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Aren't we forgetting about the concepts of Repentance (Reconciliation) and Absolution? If our sins are truly obliterated and forgotten, how should things like divorce somehow bar us from marrying again?  I'm not talking about in the holy-roller kind of way, rather, if folks have seriously under the guidance of their Spiritual Fathers worked towards sincere Repentance after having also and truly given their all in reconciling their previous marriage?  Should folks be held accountable for sins which have been Absolved?

Also, we should consider the economic and political changes in our modern society which have made a fundamentalist approach to the Canons inappropriate.  Society as a whole was structured around marriage, both in land tenure, employment, control of financial assets, familial roles, and community involvement.  It is not that women were entirely subject to men, or that men were entirely subject to women, but that both genders had specific societal roles which were dictated around marriage.  In our modern world, so many folks are raised by single parents, so many Marriages are more symbolic than literal unions, so many families, cultures, and social support systems today are evolved around single parenting, specifically women.  In a weird way, the modern world (not just Western but the "developing world" too) is almost seemingly shifting towards favoring a Matriarchy.  Sure hard power is still enforced largely through male roles, however increasingly women are heads of households, are the primary care-giver, and further are actively involved in government, in politics, and in society as a whole.  Its not that women's roles were ever negated, however they previously under the Patriarchy model were more nuanced and subtle, today they are more overt and recognized.  This shifts how we deal with divorce then.  If our society as a whole, particularly those outside of the Church, is structured around independence and also around the significance of women in the family unit, then is it beneficial for the Church to stick with an anachronistic approach to marriage?  I am not advocating that we suddenly become divorce friendly, but rather, that we as a Christian community focus more on the flexibility of love, compassion, and forgiveness rather than sticking to a fundamentalist approach to the Canons, one which seems always to have been discouraged by the Fathers example. 



stay blessed,
habte selassie

"Orthodoxy regards the marriage bond as indissoluble, and it condemns the breakdown of marriage as a sin and an evil. The Orthodox Church does permits divorce and remarriage, as an exception, a necessary concession to human sin. While condemning sin, the Church desires to help the sinners and to allow them another chance, with an act of oikonomia . When a marriage has ceased to be a reality, the Orthodox Church faces the reality with philanthropia (loving kindness).

The Orthodox Church teaches that a second union can never be the same as the first. In the service for a second marriage, some of the joyful ceremonies are omitted and replaced by penitential prayers."

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Marriage
Title: Re: Multiple Marriages
Post by: HabteSelassie on October 22, 2012, 12:57:12 AM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



Aren't we forgetting about the concepts of Repentance (Reconciliation) and Absolution?  Should folks be held accountable for sins which have been Absolved?

Also, we should consider the economic and political changes in our modern society which have made a fundamentalist approach to the Canons inappropriate.


"Orthodoxy regards the marriage bond as indissoluble, and it condemns the breakdown of marriage as a sin and an evil. The Orthodox Church does permits divorce and remarriage, as an exception, a necessary concession to human sin. While condemning sin, the Church desires to help the sinners and to allow them another chance, with an act of oikonomia .
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Marriage

Seems like wiki agrees there :)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: Multiple Marriages
Post by: Asteriktos on October 22, 2012, 01:05:25 AM
Are there any Orthodox books which deal with multiple marriages, preferrably touching upon 2nd marriages after the death of a spouse? I've read a few works on widows in the Fathers (Sts. Ambrose, John Chrysostom and Augustine), but I'd like to read something a bit more comprehensive/detailed.

Unfortunately I have been through exactly that situation.

Is the reposed wife Orthodox? That would be a pivotal question and was the wedding performed in an Orthodox Church? 

Wife and husband were married in the Orthodox Church, but both apostacized. Wife died and (let's say) the husband returned to the Church.
Title: Re: Multiple Marriages
Post by: William on October 22, 2012, 02:41:36 AM
Are there any Orthodox books which deal with multiple marriages, preferrably touching upon 2nd marriages after the death of a spouse? I've read a few works on widows in the Fathers (Sts. Ambrose, John Chrysostom and Augustine), but I'd like to read something a bit more comprehensive/detailed.

Unfortunately I have been through exactly that situation.

Is the reposed wife Orthodox? That would be a pivotal question and was the wedding performed in an Orthodox Church? 

Wife and husband were married in the Orthodox Church, but both apostacized. Wife died and (let's say) the husband returned to the Church.

I have a book offer for you. How long would it take to pad this out to about 400 pages?
Title: Re: Multiple Marriages
Post by: Asteriktos on October 22, 2012, 07:32:36 PM
I have a book offer for you. How long would it take to pad this out to about 400 pages?

Rated PG-13 version = 200 pages
Rated R version = 300 pages
Rated NC-17 version = 400 pages