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Moderated Forums => Free-For-All => Religious Topics => Topic started by: fibonacci on September 28, 2012, 03:50:44 AM

Title: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on September 28, 2012, 03:50:44 AM
We're living in crazy times, and hopefully with this thread we can have a better understanding.

So feel free to ask me anything you want about Islam, I'll try to answer it to the best of my knowledge.

Thanks very much


Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Tallitot on September 28, 2012, 05:05:26 AM
Do Moslems keep a sabbath?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Kerdy on September 28, 2012, 05:13:54 AM
Are you a "Westernized" (i.e., American, European) or from an Eastern background?  I only ask for perspective as it may assist in questions.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Ansgar on September 28, 2012, 06:53:25 AM
Do Moslems keep a sabbath?
Isn't that Friday?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Alpo on September 28, 2012, 07:23:17 AM
What's the difference between Salafism and Wahhabism? Are those synonyms for the same basic idea? How widerspread Salafism and/or Wahhabism is among non-Saudi Muslims?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Cyrillic on September 28, 2012, 07:51:46 AM
Are you a cradle muslim or a convert? Why are you shia instead of sunni? What flavour of shia are you (twelver, anything else)?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Nicene on September 28, 2012, 06:14:58 PM
Why does the quran say that the true Christians would be victorius to the day of ressurection when the only possible canndidate for any group fulfilling that are the Nicene Christians?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on September 28, 2012, 07:33:24 PM
Do Moslems keep a sabbath?

By sabbath, do you mean rest days?

If so, yes there are several rest days in the religion.  In a typical week, Friday is considered the rest day.  Furthermore, we accept and believe that Saturday is the rest day for the jewish community, and Sunday is the rest day for the christian community.



Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on September 28, 2012, 07:37:30 PM
Are you a "Westernized" (i.e., American, European) or from an Eastern background?  I only ask for perspective as it may assist in questions.

Although, I grew up in the west, I have no trouble seeing things from other perspectives.  So feel free to ask anything.
Furthermore, I'm not really that westernized.... I've never drank, consumed usury, nor participated in lustful relationships-- if that's what you're wondering.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on September 28, 2012, 07:47:07 PM
What's the difference between Salafism and Wahhabism? Are those synonyms for the same basic idea? How widerspread Salafism and/or Wahhabism is among non-Saudi Muslims?

From my understanding, wahhabisim is a branch of Salafism.  A very very long time ago, they were kind of like Amish community of Anabaptist-- live in peaceful ways staying as true to the old ways as possible.

Unfortunately today, their community has been infiltrated, spoiled and heavily radicalized.

I'm not sure how widespread they are, but I can say that the radical elements of that sect is a very small minority - often funded by certain governments for political purposes.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: dzheremi on September 28, 2012, 07:49:11 PM
Do Shi'a have the same belief regarding the eternality and uncreated nature of the Qur'an that the Sunnis apparently have? An acquaintance of mine who converted to Sunni Islam (apparently from some kind of Christianity, though I don't know exactly what) explained it to me once that the Qur'an is preserved since time immemorial in heaven on some kind of tablet, as are "uncorrupted"/original versions of the Torah and the Christian NT (in keeping with the mainstream Islamic view that these have been corrupted). I thought that was pretty interesting, but I don't really understand how it's supposed to work.  
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on September 28, 2012, 07:53:53 PM
Are you a cradle muslim or a convert? Why are you shia instead of sunni? What flavour of shia are you (twelver, anything else)?

I'm a cradle...

Shia sect is really the followers of the prophet and his family lineage.  The reason why I focus on this sect, is because, IMO, the people that best know about the prophet and his private lifestyle are his close family members.  Although his companions were very intelligent, and were close to him, ...at the end of the day though, they didn't really live with him at home, and they weren't really raised and trained by the prophet from birth.

I come from a 12er family, but now I don't really restrict my self to a certain branch.  I'm open to all different interpretation of the religion, and whatever my intuition/heart says is true, that's what I go with.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on September 28, 2012, 07:54:36 PM
Why does the quran say that the true Christians would be victorius to the day of ressurection when the only possible canndidate for any group fulfilling that are the Nicene Christians?

I'll be honest with you, this is the first time I've heard the term 'Nicene Christians'... I'll have to read more about this.

But in general, any individual (Christians or not) who live a pious lifestyle where their good deeds outweigh the bad deeds, and they follow their hearth/intuition... will be victorious on the day of resurrection.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: dzheremi on September 28, 2012, 08:08:23 PM
"Nicene" refers to the Council of Nicaea, the first of the ecumenical councils held with all Christian churches in the world at that time (325 AD). The creed that came out of it (subsequently revised in 381 at the Council of Constantinople with an expansion on the section concerning the Holy Spirit, to fight against heresies that denied the Holy Spirit) is known as the "Nicene Creed", so those Christians who keep to this Creed (the Orthodox, Catholics, and maybe some Protestants) could be called "Nicene Christians". In all the apostolic churches, we recite this Creed in every liturgy.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on September 28, 2012, 08:39:52 PM
Do Shi'a have the same belief regarding the eternality and uncreated nature of the Qur'an that the Sunnis apparently have? An acquaintance of mine who converted to Sunni Islam (apparently from some kind of Christianity, though I don't know exactly what) explained it to me once that the Qur'an is preserved since time immemorial in heaven on some kind of tablet, as are "uncorrupted"/original versions of the Torah and the Christian NT (in keeping with the mainstream Islamic view that these have been corrupted). I thought that was pretty interesting, but I don't really understand how it's supposed to work.  

Shia's do agree that the Qur'an is not corrupted... and there are many reasons why.  For one, it's in a poetic format, so it's easier to memorize.  So when these verses were revealed to the prophet, he would enunciate it out stanza by stanza (ie. verse by verse), so everyone was able to memorize it-- some would later go and write down the verse .  Later, when all the surahs (poems) were revealed, the early muslims compiled all these poems into one book--- which was the first quran.  This first quran is still around and that's why we believe it's not corrupted.

In the case of the Torah, and NT.... they are older documents and unfortunately the original texts are missing-- no museum in the world has them.  Now this doesn't mean that God isn't fair - and only blesses one relgious group and not the others.  On the contrary, God is very fair.  Even though the two documents are corrupted and have a lot of false statements, there are also a lot of statements of truths.

What's different with the Quran, is that the statements of truth in Torah and NT are clearer and easier to see, while the Quran these statements are wrapped in a poetic fashion and requires a poetic mindset -- it requires a bit more work.  So God plays fair with all religions-- some religions will have corrupted books, but the statments of truth are more comprehensible--- the reason is, that on the day of judgment, you won't have an excuse of saying that the book you were following was corrupted and it's not fair that other regions had it easier.  That's not the case, because the statement of truths were there, and it required a little bit of hard work to do independent research and study history to seek out and ignore the corrupted aspects of the religion.  This is especially true for the pagan religion..... although it's full of evil and false statments, there are a lot of very clear elements of truth--- if the pagans don't pay attention to these truths, and don't follow their heart/intuition... on the day of judgement, they will not have an excuse of not having access to truthful resources.

Note that we believe that around the time when Jesus comes back, the Torah and NT in their original format will be revealed again-- so that there won't be any doubts, and the truth triumphs over falsehood.

Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: dzheremi on September 28, 2012, 08:43:58 PM
I'm sorry, but you didn't really answer my question: Do Shi'a believe like the Sunnis do, that the Qur'an is uncreated and eternal?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Shiny on September 28, 2012, 08:44:22 PM
Is Islam a Christian heresey?

from orthonorm's favorite ideologue
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on September 28, 2012, 08:45:36 PM
I'm sorry, but you didn't really answer my question: Do Shi'a believe like the Sunnis do, that the Qur'an is uncreated and eternal?

Yes, the shias also agree that the verses in the Quran have a divine origin and have not and will not be corrupted.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: neon_knights on September 28, 2012, 09:01:02 PM
Why does Islam prohibit its followers to consume alcohol?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on September 28, 2012, 09:06:33 PM
Is Islam a Christian heresey?

from orthonorm's favorite ideologue

I'm not sure what you mean by heresey...

but Islam belongs to the set of Abrahamic religions, so a lot of the moral set of rules and stories of various prophets are the same.

Are there any particular aspects of the Quran that you find that's very different with the Christian faith?-- apart from the concept of trinity of course.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Kerdy on September 28, 2012, 09:09:48 PM
Are you a "Westernized" (i.e., American, European) or from an Eastern background?  I only ask for perspective as it may assist in questions.

Although, I grew up in the west, I have no trouble seeing things from other perspectives.  So feel free to ask anything.
Furthermore, I'm not really that westernized.... I've never drank, consumed usury, nor participated in lustful relationships-- if that's what you're wondering.
Thank you!  I asked because I know in Christianity there is a difference in Western and Eastern thinking.  I'm not sure if its the same with Islam.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on September 28, 2012, 09:11:46 PM
Why does Islam prohibit its followers to consume alcohol?

Apart from harming your body....

you become more susceptible to giving off negative energies such as lust, envy, anger, ....etc.  The jinns (demons) feed off of these negative energies...  and they'll enter you life, and will later harm you.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Eastern Mind on September 28, 2012, 09:23:00 PM
Peace be with you,

What are Jinns? Are they like demons?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Kerdy on September 28, 2012, 09:27:43 PM
I have a few more questions, but I'm trying to word them so they do not sound offensive in nature.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Sinful Hypocrite on September 28, 2012, 09:30:59 PM
Do Moslems keep a sabbath?

By sabbath, do you mean rest days?

If so, yes there are several rest days in the religion.  In a typical week, Friday is considered the rest day.  Furthermore, we accept and believe that Saturday is the rest day for the jewish community, and Sunday is the rest day for the christian community.




You know, maybe thats why we have three different ones , so all will not be off the same day. :angel:
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on September 28, 2012, 09:45:21 PM
Peace be with you,

What are Jinns? Are they like demons?

Yes, in other religions they're known as demons, genies, ...etc.

They're basically, non-human entities that operate just outside the range of our physical senses.

The very bad ones, constantly intervene in people's lives, trying to destroy relationships and constantly pressuring you to give off negative energies(it's like a "drug/alcohol" to them).  They also feed off of bodily fluids and wastes.... so it's very important to keep yourself and your surroundings clean.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Shiny on September 28, 2012, 09:47:09 PM
Talk about eschatology about those that are not Muslim, please.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on September 28, 2012, 09:47:23 PM
I have a few more questions, but I'm trying to word them so they do not sound offensive in nature.

don't worry, I don't get offended that easily...

remember, as I said in my previous two posts... the jinns feed off of anger, so I try my best not to go into that state of emotion
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Nikolaostheservant on September 29, 2012, 01:16:48 AM
Ok, you invited the questions. i will try to be as polite as i can.

"The religion of peace", tired of hearing this after all the murders and atrocities reported all over the world in the name of Islam.
 
how can this be the religion of peace when you take int account all that is going on??

I have read that the murders commited are Not a part of the true Islam, it that correct? can you explain that to me?
 
What about the war like writings in the koran instructing to kill the infadels. Note, i have not read the Koran, im going by what i have heard, so i could be wrong, please let me know.

Why do they HATE Christinas soooo much?


Cant belive no one else asked these questions.
plitically corectness should be out the door by now considering every day something new is happening in the name of Islam!

Would like to know who is answering these questions, nothig personal. Just things like, your age, how long have u been in Islam....
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Kerdy on September 29, 2012, 01:26:09 AM
I have two questions.  The first is for clarification.  Is it Muslim or Moslem or something else, officially?

The second is, well, I'm not sure how to word it.  In Christian circles, if a group calling themselves Christian did the things "radical" Islamist do, the rest of us would not put up with it and we would do everything we could to correct the problem.  Why is the Islamic world so very different and virtually apathetic to the jihadists?  

I realize Christianity and Islam will always be at odds, but seeing the things in the world today as they are, I just thought more people would stand up against the whack jobs.  I know some do and many die as a result; however, percentage wise it's almost nothing.  

I've been to that part of the world and seen how things go.  I have seen people who hate Americans help us because the ones fighting us are killing them too, but I saw very little of them fighting for themselves.  Is it some sort of fear?

I've never met a Muslim I wanted to kill, much less just because he was Muslim and no other reason.  To me it seems like an irrational hatred for anything different to them.  It reminds me of white supremacy of years gone by, only worse.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: dzheremi on September 29, 2012, 01:37:24 AM
Why do they HATE Christinas soooo much?

Be reasonable, Nikolaos...not even I like all Christinas...there are too many in the world to judge, but I bet at least some of them are jerks! I mean, by the law of averages, they'd have to be! :D

Kerdy:

I'm not the OP (obviously), but in the Arabic script only long vowels are obligatorily indicated in writing (unless it's a religious text like the Bible of the Qur'an, in which case all short vowels are indicated too, by means of diacritics). Since "Muslim" (مسلم) has no long vowels, its pronunciation will vary depending on the speaker's dialect. If I remember correctly, pronunciations with "o" are more indicative of Persian influence (as classical Arabic does not have this sound; it is found in dialects, however), cf. "Ayatollah" from Arabic آية الله (approximately "Ayatullah", 'sign of God'). So "Muslim" is closer to classical Arabic, but "Moslem" is an acceptable variant (apparently everywhere but the spell-check for this board, that is).
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: JamesR on September 29, 2012, 02:05:24 AM
What is true Islam?

This is a legitimate question I am asking, no malice intended. I used to ask myself the same question about Christianity until I was able to examine the history that ultimately convinced me that Orthodoxy is true, original Christianity. But with Islam how do we know? Every time I have asked a Muslim that question, they usually respond to me with 'read the Quran and you will know', but, I do not understand how to interpret the Quran and like Orthodoxy, I am aware that many Muslims rely on the guidance from the interpretations of Muslim scholars (for lack of a better term) throughout the ages to guide them. So how does one read the Quran to discover 'true Islam'. Likewise, how do I even know if my interpretation is correct? And what makes my interpretation or even your interpretation valid at all? How do we judge it? Certainly many of the Islamic radicals throughout history whom we would condemn could also argue that the Quran justified their behavior. So what is 'true Islam'?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Nikolaostheservant on September 29, 2012, 02:09:28 AM
Why do they HATE Christinas soooo much?

Be reasonable, Nikolaos...not even I like all Christinas...there are too many in the world to judge, but I bet at least some of them are jerks! I mean, by the law of averages, they'd have to be! :D

Kerdy:

I'm not the OP (obviously), but in the Arabic script only long vowels are obligatorily indicated in writing (unless it's a religious text like the Bible of the Qur'an, in which case all short vowels are indicated too, by means of diacritics). Since "Muslim" (مسلم) has no long vowels, its pronunciation will vary depending on the speaker's dialect. If I remember correctly, pronunciations with "o" are more indicative of Persian influence (as classical Arabic does not have this sound; it is found in dialects, however), cf. "Ayatollah" from Arabic آية الله (approximately "Ayatullah", 'sign of God'). So "Muslim" is closer to classical Arabic, but "Moslem" is an acceptable variant (apparently everywhere but the spell-check for this board, that is).

"Be reasonable, Nikolaos...not even I like all Christinas...there are too many in the world to judge, but I bet at least some of them are jerks! I mean, by the law of averages, they'd have to be! "

Ok that was funny! and true!
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on September 29, 2012, 02:21:56 AM
Talk about eschatology about those that are not Muslim, please.

If you don't mind, I'll get back to this question at a later date, because it's such a complex issue.

But essentially, there are two types of ends..... there is the end of the world-- judgement day (which only God knows when) and the end of falsehood (where truth would eliminate falsehood... ie Messiah will return and eliminate the false messiah).

For the latter, there a many signs from hadiths, and here are some that affects non Muslims:

"That the slave-girl gives birth to her mistress and master, and that you would find barefooted, destitute shepherds of goats vying with one another in the construction of magnificent buildings.

Disproportion in population of men and women to such an extent that “one man would match (not marry) fifty women”.

Homosexuality would become commonplace.

Women would dress like men and Men would dress like women.

Women would be dressed but will seem to be naked.

People will commit adultery in public.


So these are a few signs, but there are many more -- and I'll try to cover them in a future post.



Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Alpo on September 29, 2012, 02:39:12 AM
How does present-day Muslims generally chooce which kind of interpretations of Islam to follow since there aren't any churches or popes to decide that for individuals?

Does Muslims generally and/or some specific groups within Islam consider lack of Caliph anyhow problematic? Are there any movements to revive some form of Caliphate?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on September 29, 2012, 03:02:52 AM
Ok, you invited the questions. i will try to be as polite as i can.

"The religion of peace", tired of hearing this after all the murders and atrocities reported all over the world in the name of Islam.
 
how can this be the religion of peace when you take int account all that is going on??

I have read that the murders commited are Not a part of the true Islam, it that correct? can you explain that to me?

I hear you, and understand your frustration.  As I was alluding to earlier, we're living at the time what is called "the fitna of dajjal".  Or in english, "the chaotic times of the antichrist".

Everything is suppose to be chaotic, and all religions are being infiltrated and demonized.

One of the prophecies mentioned about the 'fitna of dajjal' is that...

“Nothing would remain of Islam but the name, and nothing would remain of the Qur’an but the traces (of its writing)"

That is, the Qur’an would not be studied, no one would follow its guidance, it would be recited mechanically etc.); the Masajid (mosques) would be grand structures but would be devoid of guidance; and the religious scholars of Islam who represent such people, would be the worst people beneath the sky.

So a lot of the barbaric acts we're seeing, is a sign that we're living in age of the antichrist...unfortunately.  So don't think that these acts are encouraged by the religion, they're not.  These acts are the result of poverty and lack of education (which the antichrist created by imposing a monetery system based on usury).  As a result, these weak people, out of envy, have decided to to use religion to rationalize their anger against other groups.


Quote
What about the war like writings in the koran instructing to kill the infadels. Note, i have not read the Koran, im going by what i have heard, so i could be wrong, please let me know.

In Islam, it's perfectly acceptable to defend yourself from aggressive enemies who want to kill you and your family.  So those verses were revealed to the prophet, during times of war, when other groups wanted to kill his early followers.

The prophet tried to make peace treaties with his enemies, and unfortunately the treaty was ignored and his enemies kept attacking his camp.  That's when the 'war like' verses came, saying to defeat the others, who're trying to harm you-- but the next verse (which a lot of critics ignore) says explicitly, don't hurt the enemy if they apologize.

I suggest you watch this movie... to see what kind of conflicts the prophet was going through http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlQ4Wxw5ky4

Then read the quran, and you'll get a better picture.  Remember, when studying these verses, it's important to study the setting and timing they were revealed.



Quote
Why do they HATE Christinas soooo much?

Cant belive no one else asked these questions.
plitically corectness should be out the door by now considering every day something new is happening in the name of Islam!

Again, Muslims are not suppose to HATE anyone.  Remember I said, the jinns feed off of that negative energy.

In terms of relations with Christians, it's strongly encouraged in the religion to try to be friends with Christians (the eastern Christians specifically) as they are the closest who'll understand our lifestyle.

There is although one verse, talking about not to become allies with Christians who have an alliances (militarily) with Jews.  Please note that at the time, it was very rare for such a military alliance to be in existence.... there was a lot of animosity between the two religious community.

It's only in the modern era (post 1940s-era), that we're seeing these types of alliances to be very common.  Specifically the Zionist community, or the christian involved in Freemasonry or the Orange order which promotes Zionism.  So it's those people we're discouraged to be allies with.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on September 29, 2012, 03:13:14 AM
I have two questions.  The first is for clarification.  Is it Muslim or Moslem or something else, officially?

The second is, well, I'm not sure how to word it.  In Christian circles, if a group calling themselves Christian did the things "radical" Islamist do, the rest of us would not put up with it and we would do everything we could to correct the problem. Why is the Islamic world so very different and virtually apathetic to the jihadists?

I realize Christianity and Islam will always be at odds, but seeing the things in the world today as they are, I just thought more people would stand up against the whack jobs.  I know some do and many die as a result; however, percentage wise it's almost nothing. 

I've been to that part of the world and seen how things go.  I have seen people who hate Americans help us because the ones fighting us are killing them too, but I saw very little of them fighting for themselves.  Is it some sort of fear?

I've never met a Muslim I wanted to kill, much less just because he was Muslim and no other reason.  To me it seems like an irrational hatred for anything different to them.  It reminds me of white supremacy of years gone by, only worse.

In terms of the radical elements of the religion, I've addressed the reasons in the previous post.  Please take a look and if you have any more questions, let me know.

But about, people not standing up against the whack job..... believe me, a lot have.  For example, the shia Iranians were fighting the radical Wahhabi groups  residing in Afganistan throughout the 90s--- long before the US entered that region.  They also helped US get rid of the Taliban in 2001-2002 ..... but then Bush delivered that 'axis of evil' speech and that military 'relationship' fell apart quickly.


About pronouncing Moslim or Muslim, ...these are semantic issues.  It doesn't really matter.... a muslim, is an individual who's trying to live a pious life and seeking and sharing universal truths.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: dzheremi on September 29, 2012, 03:26:24 AM
These acts are the result of poverty and lack of education

How do you reconcile this belief with the fact that the conclusions of sociologists (http://www.economist.com/node/17730424?story_id=17730424) who have studied the socioeconomic and educational level of terrorists points to them often being more educated and economically stable than the average person in their societies? From the linked article:

Quote
Claude Berrebi of the RAND Corporation compared the characteristics of suicide-bombers recruited by Hamas and Islamic Jihad from the West Bank and Gaza with those of the general adult male Palestinian population. Nearly 60% of suicide-bombers had more than a high-school education, compared with less than 15% of the general population. They were less than half as likely to come from an impoverished family as an average adult man from the general population.

The rules of this message board limit how much text can be quoted from an article, but elsewhere in this paragraph the author notes that Berrebi did a similar study in Shi'a-dominated southern Lebanon and found the same results: The terrorists from that area were more educated and less likely to come from poor families than the surrounding (majority) population who are not terrorists.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Cyrillic on September 29, 2012, 03:34:45 AM
To me it seems that the Sunnis are almost always the terrorists. I think the shias get blown more often to bits by the terrorists than us westerners.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on September 29, 2012, 03:43:06 AM
What is true Islam?

This is a legitimate question I am asking, no malice intended. I used to ask myself the same question about Christianity until I was able to examine the history that ultimately convinced me that Orthodoxy is true, original Christianity. But with Islam how do we know? Every time I have asked a Muslim that question, they usually respond to me with 'read the Quran and you will know', but, I do not understand how to interpret the Quran and like Orthodoxy, I am aware that many Muslims rely on the guidance from the interpretations of Muslim scholars (for lack of a better term) throughout the ages to guide them. So how does one read the Quran to discover 'true Islam'. Likewise, how do I even know if my interpretation is correct? And what makes my interpretation or even your interpretation valid at all? How do we judge it? Certainly many of the Islamic radicals throughout history whom we would condemn could also argue that the Quran justified their behavior. So what is 'true Islam'?

I'll tell you what I think is true Islam.  It's a way of life that if you follow correctly, will help you have peace with others and peace with yourself (ie. won't struggle with addictions).  The prophet said, that in this world, it's like hell to the believer and heaven for the non-believer... but the hereafter, will be heaven for the believer and hell for the nonbeliever.

The religion will help direct you in the right path, so the hellish pain doesn't disrupt the peaceful relationships you have in your life.

As to how to interpret the Quran....when you start, it's recommend you follow the way scholars in the past has interpreted them.  If you follow the religion correctly and with pure intentions... (ie. praying, not drinking, not commiting sin, ...etc.) slowly but surely, you'll gain more knowledge.  Then you'll constantly be thinking, and see all sorts of patterns showing up in your life that are not coincidences....then your intuition/heart will try to make an explanation for this pattern.  If this pattern is noticed by others... specificaly muslims, then it is something worth to research.  So then if you study the Quran from the perspective of your intuition, you'll interpret a lot of things differently than scholars.  If you've noticed a verse that matches the explanation of the pattern you've noticed earlier, then it is the correct interpretation.

As for the radicals who interpret the Quran-- their interpreting the Quran when their hearts are filled with anger, envy, fear, ...etc.   The valid interpretations happen only when you study the verses with a pure heart/intuition--- that is, no negative emotions residing in your body.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on September 29, 2012, 03:57:51 AM
How does present-day Muslims generally chooce which kind of interpretations of Islam to follow since there aren't any churches or popes to decide that for individuals?

Does Muslims generally and/or some specific groups within Islam consider lack of Caliph anyhow problematic? Are there any movements to revive some form of Caliphate?

Yes, from my understanding of the religion, we're not suppose to have a hierarchical system in the religion, where there has to be a leader to decide things for individuals.

This is why the kabba is a cube, and not a pyramid--- to give a sign that this religion is not hierarchical.

The only leaders we should follow, are those that have divine knowledge... Jesus, and the mahdi.

A lot of sunnis are asking for the Caliph to rule them, because they were raised in a political systems ruled by monarchy-- they're stuck in that mindset.  But that's not the correct way.... because the quran said that you should focus on issues at the tribal/local level.....and also the prophet didn't explicitly say for anyone to rule over all the Muslims after his death.  Because God works through you...... through your heart/intuition.  You don't need to seek a leader like a pope to get you answers from God.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Theophilos78 on September 29, 2012, 07:46:56 AM
Why is it written in the Qur'an that Jesus' mother Mary was the daughter of Amram (Surah 3:35, Surah 66:12) and sister of Aaron (Surah 19:28)? Isn't it obvious that the author of the Qur'an accidentally assimilated the Miriam of the Old Testament (Daughter of Amram in 1 Chronicles 6:3; Sister of Aaron in Exodus 15:20) to Jesus' mother Miriam?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: JamesR on September 29, 2012, 03:56:37 PM
Did Islam mess up the entire Middle East? Be honest about it. I mean, I'll be the first one to admit that the Roman Catholic Church messed up western Europe during the Dark Ages and screwed up Latin America.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: NicholasMyra on September 29, 2012, 04:24:18 PM
the Roman Catholic Church messed up western Europe during the Dark Ages
Did it?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: OrthoNoob on September 29, 2012, 04:28:18 PM
People who use the term "Dark Ages" immediately lose 50 points of historical credibility.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: dzheremi on September 29, 2012, 04:46:04 PM
I didn't know any of us had any to lose, but yeah, the characterization of medieval Europe as "the Dark Ages" is really a misnomer.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: JamesR on September 29, 2012, 04:53:35 PM
the Roman Catholic Church messed up western Europe during the Dark Ages
Did it?

Persecuted Galileo for scientific development, impoverished Europe from the Crusades called upon by the Pope etc...
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Eastern Mind on September 29, 2012, 05:07:49 PM
Peace be with you,

An honest question, and I mean no offense by it at all. But, why does the Quran condone striking a woman, and why does it say she is "below" the man? Should women not be loved and cherished?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: OrthoNoob on September 29, 2012, 05:23:37 PM
the Roman Catholic Church messed up western Europe during the Dark Ages
Did it?

Persecuted Galileo for scientific development, impoverished Europe from the Crusades called upon by the Pope etc...

*sigh*
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: OrthoNoob on September 29, 2012, 05:27:33 PM
Galileo lived in the Renaissance, not the "Dark" Ages. Also, the Crusades were in every sense defensive wars. The first one, in fact, was called at the request of the Byzantine Emperor, whose Orthodox lands were being overrun by Moslems, pursuing the same aggressive, expansionary policy they had pursued from the time of their Prophet.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: dzheremi on September 29, 2012, 06:11:11 PM
Is there any distinction made in Islam between martyrdom (willingly being killed for the sake of your faith) and suicide (willingly killing yourself)? I ask because I know that some Muslims like to refer to suicide bombings as "martyrdom operations" or by similar terms, but that's quite different than how Christianity views martyrdom, so I'm curious if it is just a misuse of the word "martyr" or if anytime a Muslim dies in an action perceived to be done for his faith he is actually considered a martyr.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Nikolaostheservant on September 29, 2012, 06:19:29 PM
Ok, you invited the questions. i will try to be as polite as i can.

"The religion of peace", tired of hearing this after all the murders and atrocities reported all over the world in the name of Islam.
 
how can this be the religion of peace when you take int account all that is going on??

I have read that the murders commited are Not a part of the true Islam, it that correct? can you explain that to me?

I hear you, and understand your frustration.  As I was alluding to earlier, we're living at the time what is called "the fitna of dajjal".  Or in english, "the chaotic times of the antichrist".

Everything is suppose to be chaotic, and all religions are being infiltrated and demonized.

One of the prophecies mentioned about the 'fitna of dajjal' is that...

“Nothing would remain of Islam but the name, and nothing would remain of the Qur’an but the traces (of its writing)"

That is, the Qur’an would not be studied, no one would follow its guidance, it would be recited mechanically etc.); the Masajid (mosques) would be grand structures but would be devoid of guidance; and the religious scholars of Islam who represent such people, would be the worst people beneath the sky.

So a lot of the barbaric acts we're seeing, is a sign that we're living in age of the antichrist...unfortunately.  So don't think that these acts are encouraged by the religion, they're not.  These acts are the result of poverty and lack of education (which the antichrist created by imposing a monetery system based on usury).  As a result, these weak people, out of envy, have decided to to use religion to rationalize their anger against other groups.


Quote
What about the war like writings in the koran instructing to kill the infadels. Note, i have not read the Koran, im going by what i have heard, so i could be wrong, please let me know.

In Islam, it's perfectly acceptable to defend yourself from aggressive enemies who want to kill you and your family.  So those verses were revealed to the prophet, during times of war, when other groups wanted to kill his early followers.

The prophet tried to make peace treaties with his enemies, and unfortunately the treaty was ignored and his enemies kept attacking his camp.  That's when the 'war like' verses came, saying to defeat the others, who're trying to harm you-- but the next verse (which a lot of critics ignore) says explicitly, don't hurt the enemy if they apologize.

I suggest you watch this movie... to see what kind of conflicts the prophet was going through http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlQ4Wxw5ky4

Then read the quran, and you'll get a better picture.  Remember, when studying these verses, it's important to study the setting and timing they were revealed.



Quote
Why do they HATE Christinas soooo much?

Cant belive no one else asked these questions.
plitically corectness should be out the door by now considering every day something new is happening in the name of Islam!

Again, Muslims are not suppose to HATE anyone.  Remember I said, the jinns feed off of that negative energy.

In terms of relations with Christians, it's strongly encouraged in the religion to try to be friends with Christians (the eastern Christians specifically) as they are the closest who'll understand our lifestyle.

There is although one verse, talking about not to become allies with Christians who have an alliances (militarily) with Jews.  Please note that at the time, it was very rare for such a military alliance to be in existence.... there was a lot of animosity between the two religious community.

It's only in the modern era (post 1940s-era), that we're seeing these types of alliances to be very common.  Specifically the Zionist community, or the christian involved in Freemasonry or the Orange order which promotes Zionism.  So it's those people we're discouraged to be allies with.


 
i wish we both religions followed the turn the other cheek thing, instead of defending your self--this would stop all the violence.

you sound like a very nice person...like most of the muslams i have known in my life.
when i sit and think of it, i have known and been good friends with many Muslims, never really thought abt it.
all were very likable people, some more then others.
and then i listen to the news and see (have u seen the recent decapitation of a Christian using an little knife to saw off his head, while he is alive and praying!!!) and hear all the crazy things that are done by muslams in the name of Islam/Alah.
How can anyone say anything good abt them when you see what they are doing.
the two just doesent gel, wha the heck is going on!

If Christians were doing the things the Muslims are doing to Christians, only to Muslims, i would say...you know what, i think this Christianity thing is full of sh8t, and reevaluate if Christianity is truly the correct religion i want to be a part of.



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Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Eastern Mind on September 29, 2012, 06:22:41 PM
Quote
In terms of relations with Christians, it's strongly encouraged in the religion to try to be friends with Christians

Peace be with you,

But why then does the Koran say that Muslims are not to take Jews and Christians as friends?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on September 29, 2012, 07:21:51 PM
These acts are the result of poverty and lack of education

How do you reconcile this belief with the fact that the conclusions of sociologists (http://www.economist.com/node/17730424?story_id=17730424) who have studied the socioeconomic and educational level of terrorists points to them often being more educated and economically stable than the average person in their societies? From the linked article:

Quote
Claude Berrebi of the RAND Corporation compared the characteristics of suicide-bombers recruited by Hamas and Islamic Jihad from the West Bank and Gaza with those of the general adult male Palestinian population. Nearly 60% of suicide-bombers had more than a high-school education, compared with less than 15% of the general population. They were less than half as likely to come from an impoverished family as an average adult man from the general population.

The rules of this message board limit how much text can be quoted from an article, but elsewhere in this paragraph the author notes that Berrebi did a similar study in Shi'a-dominated southern Lebanon and found the same results: The terrorists from that area were more educated and less likely to come from poor families than the surrounding (majority) population who are not terrorists.

Well, I was referring to an individual who becomes a radical.

In terms of the leaders of various groups, gangs, organizations...etc., that you mentioned.... it's important to studying them at a deeper level and their origins.   Groups like Hamas was originally created and funded by Israel and supported by US in the 80s.... the media won't say this, unfortunately.  The other group, AQ was funded and supported by US, so yes these are wealthy groups, because they do the dirty work.....they do the terrible acts to satisfy certain political agendas for western nations.

The people that joins these groups, however, are the ones that come from impoverished and uneducated families.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: dzheremi on September 29, 2012, 07:41:50 PM
I'm confused and discouraged by your answer, Fibonacci. Did you read the article? It is not about the leaders or histories of terrorist groups, but about individuals who decide to commit terrorism, and it shows that those individuals are likely to be richer and more educated than the general populace, not poorer or less educated.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Sinful Hypocrite on September 29, 2012, 08:00:17 PM
Ok, you invited the questions. i will try to be as polite as i can.

"The religion of peace", tired of hearing this after all the murders and atrocities reported all over the world in the name of Islam.
 
how can this be the religion of peace when you take int account all that is going on??

I have read that the murders commited are Not a part of the true Islam, it that correct? can you explain that to me?

I hear you, and understand your frustration.  As I was alluding to earlier, we're living at the time what is called "the fitna of dajjal".  Or in english, "the chaotic times of the antichrist".

Everything is suppose to be chaotic, and all religions are being infiltrated and demonized.

One of the prophecies mentioned about the 'fitna of dajjal' is that...

“Nothing would remain of Islam but the name, and nothing would remain of the Qur’an but the traces (of its writing)"

That is, the Qur’an would not be studied, no one would follow its guidance, it would be recited mechanically etc.); the Masajid (mosques) would be grand structures but would be devoid of guidance; and the religious scholars of Islam who represent such people, would be the worst people beneath the sky.

So a lot of the barbaric acts we're seeing, is a sign that we're living in age of the antichrist...unfortunately.  So don't think that these acts are encouraged by the religion, they're not.  These acts are the result of poverty and lack of education (which the antichrist created by imposing a monetery system based on usury).  As a result, these weak people, out of envy, have decided to to use religion to rationalize their anger against other groups.


Quote
What about the war like writings in the koran instructing to kill the infadels. Note, i have not read the Koran, im going by what i have heard, so i could be wrong, please let me know.

In Islam, it's perfectly acceptable to defend yourself from aggressive enemies who want to kill you and your family.  So those verses were revealed to the prophet, during times of war, when other groups wanted to kill his early followers.

The prophet tried to make peace treaties with his enemies, and unfortunately the treaty was ignored and his enemies kept attacking his camp.  That's when the 'war like' verses came, saying to defeat the others, who're trying to harm you-- but the next verse (which a lot of critics ignore) says explicitly, don't hurt the enemy if they apologize.

I suggest you watch this movie... to see what kind of conflicts the prophet was going through http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlQ4Wxw5ky4

Then read the quran, and you'll get a better picture.  Remember, when studying these verses, it's important to study the setting and timing they were revealed.



Quote
Why do they HATE Christinas soooo much?

Cant belive no one else asked these questions.
plitically corectness should be out the door by now considering every day something new is happening in the name of Islam!

Again, Muslims are not suppose to HATE anyone.  Remember I said, the jinns feed off of that negative energy.

In terms of relations with Christians, it's strongly encouraged in the religion to try to be friends with Christians (the eastern Christians specifically) as they are the closest who'll understand our lifestyle.

There is although one verse, talking about not to become allies with Christians who have an alliances (militarily) with Jews.  Please note that at the time, it was very rare for such a military alliance to be in existence.... there was a lot of animosity between the two religious community.

It's only in the modern era (post 1940s-era), that we're seeing these types of alliances to be very common.  Specifically the Zionist community, or the christian involved in Freemasonry or the Orange order which promotes Zionism.  So it's those people we're discouraged to be allies with.


 
i wish we both religions followed the turn the other cheek thing, instead of defending your self--this would stop all the violence.

you sound like a very nice person...like most of the muslams i have known in my life.
when i sit and think of it, i have known and been good friends with many Muslims, never really thought abt it.
all were very likable people, some more then others.
and then i listen to the news and see (have u seen the recent decapitation of a Christian using an little knife to saw off his head, while he is alive and praying!!!) and hear all the crazy things that are done by muslams in the name of Islam/Alah.
How can anyone say anything good abt them when you see what they are doing.
the two just doesent gel, wha the heck is going on!

If Christians were doing the things the Muslims are doing to Christians, only to Muslims, i would say...you know what, i think this Christianity thing is full of sh8t, and reevaluate if Christianity is truly the correct religion i want to be a part of.




Christians have and continue to do those same things to muslims, would you like to know how many Muslims were killed in Iraq and Afghanistan ?

How many were killed in the crusades?

Iraqi Civilians alone 108,000-118,000.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War)
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Nikolaostheservant on September 29, 2012, 08:16:12 PM
Ok, you invited the questions. i will try to be as polite as i can.

"The religion of peace", tired of hearing this after all the murders and atrocities reported all over the world in the name of Islam.
 
how can this be the religion of peace when you take int account all that is going on??

I have read that the murders commited are Not a part of the true Islam, it that correct? can you explain that to me?

I hear you, and understand your frustration.  As I was alluding to earlier, we're living at the time what is called "the fitna of dajjal".  Or in english, "the chaotic times of the antichrist".

Everything is suppose to be chaotic, and all religions are being infiltrated and demonized.

One of the prophecies mentioned about the 'fitna of dajjal' is that...

“Nothing would remain of Islam but the name, and nothing would remain of the Qur’an but the traces (of its writing)"

That is, the Qur’an would not be studied, no one would follow its guidance, it would be recited mechanically etc.); the Masajid (mosques) would be grand structures but would be devoid of guidance; and the religious scholars of Islam who represent such people, would be the worst people beneath the sky.

So a lot of the barbaric acts we're seeing, is a sign that we're living in age of the antichrist...unfortunately.  So don't think that these acts are encouraged by the religion, they're not.  These acts are the result of poverty and lack of education (which the antichrist created by imposing a monetery system based on usury).  As a result, these weak people, out of envy, have decided to to use religion to rationalize their anger against other groups.


Quote
What about the war like writings in the koran instructing to kill the infadels. Note, i have not read the Koran, im going by what i have heard, so i could be wrong, please let me know.

In Islam, it's perfectly acceptable to defend yourself from aggressive enemies who want to kill you and your family.  So those verses were revealed to the prophet, during times of war, when other groups wanted to kill his early followers.

The prophet tried to make peace treaties with his enemies, and unfortunately the treaty was ignored and his enemies kept attacking his camp.  That's when the 'war like' verses came, saying to defeat the others, who're trying to harm you-- but the next verse (which a lot of critics ignore) says explicitly, don't hurt the enemy if they apologize.

I suggest you watch this movie... to see what kind of conflicts the prophet was going through http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlQ4Wxw5ky4

Then read the quran, and you'll get a better picture.  Remember, when studying these verses, it's important to study the setting and timing they were revealed.



Quote
Why do they HATE Christinas soooo much?

Cant belive no one else asked these questions.
plitically corectness should be out the door by now considering every day something new is happening in the name of Islam!

Again, Muslims are not suppose to HATE anyone.  Remember I said, the jinns feed off of that negative energy.

In terms of relations with Christians, it's strongly encouraged in the religion to try to be friends with Christians (the eastern Christians specifically) as they are the closest who'll understand our lifestyle.

There is although one verse, talking about not to become allies with Christians who have an alliances (militarily) with Jews.  Please note that at the time, it was very rare for such a military alliance to be in existence.... there was a lot of animosity between the two religious community.

It's only in the modern era (post 1940s-era), that we're seeing these types of alliances to be very common.  Specifically the Zionist community, or the christian involved in Freemasonry or the Orange order which promotes Zionism.  So it's those people we're discouraged to be allies with.


 
i wish we both religions followed the turn the other cheek thing, instead of defending your self--this would stop all the violence.

you sound like a very nice person...like most of the muslams i have known in my life.
when i sit and think of it, i have known and been good friends with many Muslims, never really thought abt it.
all were very likable people, some more then others.
and then i listen to the news and see (have u seen the recent decapitation of a Christian using an little knife to saw off his head, while he is alive and praying!!!) and hear all the crazy things that are done by muslams in the name of Islam/Alah.
How can anyone say anything good abt them when you see what they are doing.
the two just doesent gel, wha the heck is going on!

If Christians were doing the things the Muslims are doing to Christians, only to Muslims, i would say...you know what, i think this Christianity thing is full of sh8t, and reevaluate if Christianity is truly the correct religion i want to be a part of.




Christians have and continue to do those same things to muslims, would you like to know how many Muslims were killed in Iraq and Afghanistan ?

How many were killed in the crusades?

Iraqi Civilians alone 108,000-118,000.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War)



i would like to know how many Christians recently beheaded someone for there religious beliefs, with a rusty little knife while he was awake and praying. could u you tell me please.

i would also like yo to tell me how many Christians recently put a girl with down syndrome in jail for using pages from the Koran to make a fire to make a meal.

i would also like you to tell me how many Christians recently attacked a various mos ks and killed the worshipers there, on a regular basis.

i would also like you to tell me how many Christians recently hijacked airplanes and killed thousands of innocent people by flying them into bldgs, just because they were American.

i would also like yo to tell me how many Christians recently attacked various embassy's around the world killing people.

i would also like yo to tell me how many Christians recently are causing chaos around the world with violent protests against an stupid "MOVIE" some moron made making fun of Alla.

i would also like you to tell me how many Christians recently strap bombs on themselves and try to kill as many people as possible in order to go to heaven.

got more questions but that should keep yo busy for now.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Nikolaostheservant on September 29, 2012, 08:21:20 PM
Ok, you invited the questions. i will try to be as polite as i can.

"The religion of peace", tired of hearing this after all the murders and atrocities reported all over the world in the name of Islam.
 
how can this be the religion of peace when you take int account all that is going on??

I have read that the murders commited are Not a part of the true Islam, it that correct? can you explain that to me?

I hear you, and understand your frustration.  As I was alluding to earlier, we're living at the time what is called "the fitna of dajjal".  Or in english, "the chaotic times of the antichrist".

Everything is suppose to be chaotic, and all religions are being infiltrated and demonized.

One of the prophecies mentioned about the 'fitna of dajjal' is that...

“Nothing would remain of Islam but the name, and nothing would remain of the Qur’an but the traces (of its writing)"

That is, the Qur’an would not be studied, no one would follow its guidance, it would be recited mechanically etc.); the Masajid (mosques) would be grand structures but would be devoid of guidance; and the religious scholars of Islam who represent such people, would be the worst people beneath the sky.

So a lot of the barbaric acts we're seeing, is a sign that we're living in age of the antichrist...unfortunately.  So don't think that these acts are encouraged by the religion, they're not.  These acts are the result of poverty and lack of education (which the antichrist created by imposing a monetery system based on usury).  As a result, these weak people, out of envy, have decided to to use religion to rationalize their anger against other groups.


Quote
What about the war like writings in the koran instructing to kill the infadels. Note, i have not read the Koran, im going by what i have heard, so i could be wrong, please let me know.

In Islam, it's perfectly acceptable to defend yourself from aggressive enemies who want to kill you and your family.  So those verses were revealed to the prophet, during times of war, when other groups wanted to kill his early followers.

The prophet tried to make peace treaties with his enemies, and unfortunately the treaty was ignored and his enemies kept attacking his camp.  That's when the 'war like' verses came, saying to defeat the others, who're trying to harm you-- but the next verse (which a lot of critics ignore) says explicitly, don't hurt the enemy if they apologize.

I suggest you watch this movie... to see what kind of conflicts the prophet was going through http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlQ4Wxw5ky4

Then read the quran, and you'll get a better picture.  Remember, when studying these verses, it's important to study the setting and timing they were revealed.



Quote
Why do they HATE Christinas soooo much?

Cant belive no one else asked these questions.
plitically corectness should be out the door by now considering every day something new is happening in the name of Islam!

Again, Muslims are not suppose to HATE anyone.  Remember I said, the jinns feed off of that negative energy.

In terms of relations with Christians, it's strongly encouraged in the religion to try to be friends with Christians (the eastern Christians specifically) as they are the closest who'll understand our lifestyle.

There is although one verse, talking about not to become allies with Christians who have an alliances (militarily) with Jews.  Please note that at the time, it was very rare for such a military alliance to be in existence.... there was a lot of animosity between the two religious community.

It's only in the modern era (post 1940s-era), that we're seeing these types of alliances to be very common.  Specifically the Zionist community, or the christian involved in Freemasonry or the Orange order which promotes Zionism.  So it's those people we're discouraged to be allies with.


 
i wish we both religions followed the turn the other cheek thing, instead of defending your self--this would stop all the violence.

you sound like a very nice person...like most of the muslams i have known in my life.
when i sit and think of it, i have known and been good friends with many Muslims, never really thought abt it.
all were very likable people, some more then others.
and then i listen to the news and see (have u seen the recent decapitation of a Christian using an little knife to saw off his head, while he is alive and praying!!!) and hear all the crazy things that are done by muslams in the name of Islam/Alah.
How can anyone say anything good abt them when you see what they are doing.
the two just doesent gel, wha the heck is going on!

If Christians were doing the things the Muslims are doing to Christians, only to Muslims, i would say...you know what, i think this Christianity thing is full of sh8t, and reevaluate if Christianity is truly the correct religion i want to be a part of.




Christians have and continue to do those same things to muslims, would you like to know how many Muslims were killed in Iraq and Afghanistan ?

How many were killed in the crusades?

Iraqi Civilians alone 108,000-118,000.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War)



and why do u suppose that is. did we just wake up one day and say i think we should start an war in iraq?

and dont bring up history we are talking today not the crusades, wich we ORTHODOX were not a part of!



OMG, you are Greek Orthodox! Go ask you yia yia abt the turkish ocupation of greece and how it was?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Ebor on September 29, 2012, 08:32:34 PM
the Roman Catholic Church messed up western Europe during the Dark Ages
Did it?

Persecuted Galileo for scientific development, impoverished Europe from the Crusades called upon by the Pope etc...

The Galileo affair was more complicated than that and his years were 1564-1642 which is quite later that the post-Roman Empire and Medieval eras.  It wasn't a matter of scientific development per se. There was a scientific society in Rome, the Lyncian Academy, into which Galileo was inducted in 1611 and it was not opposed by the RC hierarchy.  http://galileo.rice.edu/gal/lincei.html

Part of the problem was Galileo himself who was, shall we say, not one to suffer disagreement with his ideas lightly.  Sometimes this meant that he irritated powerful people and sometimes he was wrong.  His work The Assayer has a good bit of vitriol aimed at those who did not agree with his ideas or he did not agree iwth theirs.  Some of it is quite sarcastic, in fact.  And on the point of what comets are Galileo maintains that they are tricks of light while the other astronomer-mathemetician, Orazio Grassi, (who was also a Jesuit) held that they are real objects.  While Galileo was right on much in this he was wrong.  
Here are links to an English translation of The Assayer

www.stanford.edu/~jsabol/certainty/.../Galileo-Assayer.pdf

And to the Galileo Project at Rice
http://galileo.rice.edu/index.html

Ebor
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Sinful Hypocrite on September 29, 2012, 08:40:55 PM
You are acting as though Christians are good, remember Christ said only God is good.Luke 18:19 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is ...
... "Only God is truly good. .... ... No one is good, but only God. ...
//bible.cc/luke/18-19.htm - 15k



And it matters not about who it is , they are all Gods people, he loves them all.Loving Thy Neighbor
... Mark 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, You shall love your neighbor as
yourself. There is none other commandment greater than these. ...
//topicalbible.org/l/loving_thy_neighbor.htm - 14k


Matthew 5:44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those ...
But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, .... ...

There have been just as many atrocities in the name of christianity. And even the Angels in heaven will not accuse them who do those things.


2 Peter 2:11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more ...
yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous
accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. ...


And the most important is that you are praising yourself wrongly.The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed abouta himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”


Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Kerdy on September 29, 2012, 08:43:06 PM
Ok, you invited the questions. i will try to be as polite as i can.

"The religion of peace", tired of hearing this after all the murders and atrocities reported all over the world in the name of Islam.
 
how can this be the religion of peace when you take int account all that is going on??

I have read that the murders commited are Not a part of the true Islam, it that correct? can you explain that to me?

I hear you, and understand your frustration.  As I was alluding to earlier, we're living at the time what is called "the fitna of dajjal".  Or in english, "the chaotic times of the antichrist".

Everything is suppose to be chaotic, and all religions are being infiltrated and demonized.

One of the prophecies mentioned about the 'fitna of dajjal' is that...

“Nothing would remain of Islam but the name, and nothing would remain of the Qur’an but the traces (of its writing)"

That is, the Qur’an would not be studied, no one would follow its guidance, it would be recited mechanically etc.); the Masajid (mosques) would be grand structures but would be devoid of guidance; and the religious scholars of Islam who represent such people, would be the worst people beneath the sky.

So a lot of the barbaric acts we're seeing, is a sign that we're living in age of the antichrist...unfortunately.  So don't think that these acts are encouraged by the religion, they're not.  These acts are the result of poverty and lack of education (which the antichrist created by imposing a monetery system based on usury).  As a result, these weak people, out of envy, have decided to to use religion to rationalize their anger against other groups.


Quote
What about the war like writings in the koran instructing to kill the infadels. Note, i have not read the Koran, im going by what i have heard, so i could be wrong, please let me know.

In Islam, it's perfectly acceptable to defend yourself from aggressive enemies who want to kill you and your family.  So those verses were revealed to the prophet, during times of war, when other groups wanted to kill his early followers.

The prophet tried to make peace treaties with his enemies, and unfortunately the treaty was ignored and his enemies kept attacking his camp.  That's when the 'war like' verses came, saying to defeat the others, who're trying to harm you-- but the next verse (which a lot of critics ignore) says explicitly, don't hurt the enemy if they apologize.

I suggest you watch this movie... to see what kind of conflicts the prophet was going through http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlQ4Wxw5ky4

Then read the quran, and you'll get a better picture.  Remember, when studying these verses, it's important to study the setting and timing they were revealed.



Quote
Why do they HATE Christinas soooo much?

Cant belive no one else asked these questions.
plitically corectness should be out the door by now considering every day something new is happening in the name of Islam!

Again, Muslims are not suppose to HATE anyone.  Remember I said, the jinns feed off of that negative energy.

In terms of relations with Christians, it's strongly encouraged in the religion to try to be friends with Christians (the eastern Christians specifically) as they are the closest who'll understand our lifestyle.

There is although one verse, talking about not to become allies with Christians who have an alliances (militarily) with Jews.  Please note that at the time, it was very rare for such a military alliance to be in existence.... there was a lot of animosity between the two religious community.

It's only in the modern era (post 1940s-era), that we're seeing these types of alliances to be very common.  Specifically the Zionist community, or the christian involved in Freemasonry or the Orange order which promotes Zionism.  So it's those people we're discouraged to be allies with.


 
i wish we both religions followed the turn the other cheek thing, instead of defending your self--this would stop all the violence.

Really?  You think so?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on September 29, 2012, 08:43:26 PM
Why is it written in the Qur'an that Jesus' mother Mary was the daughter of Amram (Surah 3:35, Surah 66:12) and sister of Aaron (Surah 19:28)? Isn't it obvious that the author of the Qur'an accidentally assimilated the Miriam of the Old Testament (Daughter of Amram in 1 Chronicles 6:3; Sister of Aaron in Exodus 15:20) to Jesus' mother Miriam?

This is a very interesting point, and I'm going to do some more studying on it....

but remember, these surahs are poetic, and typically, these poems reveal many different stories, all of which are valid
you just have to read them from different perspectives... to get the point

now if you're reading these verses, thinking about Mary the mother of Jesus, Amram is mentioned because she's from that linage..... most likely her father's last name was Amram

in the second case, Surah 19:28, it's clearly a play-on-word, if you read it carefully...... a man from her community was criticizing her for having Jesus, and telling her how surprised he was, that someone who comes from a very religious family, who's name is the same as Mariam, the sister of Aaron, why she would have such "a baby out of wedlock".
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Kerdy on September 29, 2012, 08:46:31 PM
Ok, you invited the questions. i will try to be as polite as i can.

"The religion of peace", tired of hearing this after all the murders and atrocities reported all over the world in the name of Islam.
 
how can this be the religion of peace when you take int account all that is going on??

I have read that the murders commited are Not a part of the true Islam, it that correct? can you explain that to me?

I hear you, and understand your frustration.  As I was alluding to earlier, we're living at the time what is called "the fitna of dajjal".  Or in english, "the chaotic times of the antichrist".

Everything is suppose to be chaotic, and all religions are being infiltrated and demonized.

One of the prophecies mentioned about the 'fitna of dajjal' is that...

“Nothing would remain of Islam but the name, and nothing would remain of the Qur’an but the traces (of its writing)"

That is, the Qur’an would not be studied, no one would follow its guidance, it would be recited mechanically etc.); the Masajid (mosques) would be grand structures but would be devoid of guidance; and the religious scholars of Islam who represent such people, would be the worst people beneath the sky.

So a lot of the barbaric acts we're seeing, is a sign that we're living in age of the antichrist...unfortunately.  So don't think that these acts are encouraged by the religion, they're not.  These acts are the result of poverty and lack of education (which the antichrist created by imposing a monetery system based on usury).  As a result, these weak people, out of envy, have decided to to use religion to rationalize their anger against other groups.


Quote
What about the war like writings in the koran instructing to kill the infadels. Note, i have not read the Koran, im going by what i have heard, so i could be wrong, please let me know.

In Islam, it's perfectly acceptable to defend yourself from aggressive enemies who want to kill you and your family.  So those verses were revealed to the prophet, during times of war, when other groups wanted to kill his early followers.

The prophet tried to make peace treaties with his enemies, and unfortunately the treaty was ignored and his enemies kept attacking his camp.  That's when the 'war like' verses came, saying to defeat the others, who're trying to harm you-- but the next verse (which a lot of critics ignore) says explicitly, don't hurt the enemy if they apologize.

I suggest you watch this movie... to see what kind of conflicts the prophet was going through http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlQ4Wxw5ky4

Then read the quran, and you'll get a better picture.  Remember, when studying these verses, it's important to study the setting and timing they were revealed.



Quote
Why do they HATE Christinas soooo much?

Cant belive no one else asked these questions.
plitically corectness should be out the door by now considering every day something new is happening in the name of Islam!

Again, Muslims are not suppose to HATE anyone.  Remember I said, the jinns feed off of that negative energy.

In terms of relations with Christians, it's strongly encouraged in the religion to try to be friends with Christians (the eastern Christians specifically) as they are the closest who'll understand our lifestyle.

There is although one verse, talking about not to become allies with Christians who have an alliances (militarily) with Jews.  Please note that at the time, it was very rare for such a military alliance to be in existence.... there was a lot of animosity between the two religious community.

It's only in the modern era (post 1940s-era), that we're seeing these types of alliances to be very common.  Specifically the Zionist community, or the christian involved in Freemasonry or the Orange order which promotes Zionism.  So it's those people we're discouraged to be allies with.


 
i wish we both religions followed the turn the other cheek thing, instead of defending your self--this would stop all the violence.

you sound like a very nice person...like most of the muslams i have known in my life.
when i sit and think of it, i have known and been good friends with many Muslims, never really thought abt it.
all were very likable people, some more then others.
and then i listen to the news and see (have u seen the recent decapitation of a Christian using an little knife to saw off his head, while he is alive and praying!!!) and hear all the crazy things that are done by muslams in the name of Islam/Alah.
How can anyone say anything good abt them when you see what they are doing.
the two just doesent gel, wha the heck is going on!

If Christians were doing the things the Muslims are doing to Christians, only to Muslims, i would say...you know what, i think this Christianity thing is full of sh8t, and reevaluate if Christianity is truly the correct religion i want to be a part of.




Christians have and continue to do those same things to muslims, would you like to know how many Muslims were killed in Iraq and Afghanistan ?

How many were killed in the crusades?

Iraqi Civilians alone 108,000-118,000.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War)
It must be a comfortable position to Monday morning quarterback war when you obviously know nothing about it.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Kerdy on September 29, 2012, 08:50:25 PM
You are acting as though Christians are good, remember Christ said only God is good.Luke 18:19 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is ...
... "Only God is truly good. .... ... No one is good, but only God. ...
//bible.cc/luke/18-19.htm - 15k



And it matters not about who it is , they are all Gods people, he loves them all.Loving Thy Neighbor
... Mark 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, You shall love your neighbor as
yourself. There is none other commandment greater than these. ...
//topicalbible.org/l/loving_thy_neighbor.htm - 14k


Matthew 5:44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those ...
But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, .... ...

There have been just as many atrocities in the name of christianity. And even the Angels in heaven will not accuse them who do those things.


2 Peter 2:11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more ...
yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous
accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. ...


And the most important is that you are praising yourself wrongly.The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed abouta himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”



We are acting like you toss accusations for entertainment without being able to accurately support them, because they are false.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Nikolaostheservant on September 29, 2012, 09:02:30 PM
Ok, you invited the questions. i will try to be as polite as i can.

"The religion of peace", tired of hearing this after all the murders and atrocities reported all over the world in the name of Islam.
 
how can this be the religion of peace when you take int account all that is going on??

I have read that the murders commited are Not a part of the true Islam, it that correct? can you explain that to me?

I hear you, and understand your frustration.  As I was alluding to earlier, we're living at the time what is called "the fitna of dajjal".  Or in english, "the chaotic times of the antichrist".

Everything is suppose to be chaotic, and all religions are being infiltrated and demonized.

One of the prophecies mentioned about the 'fitna of dajjal' is that...

“Nothing would remain of Islam but the name, and nothing would remain of the Qur’an but the traces (of its writing)"

That is, the Qur’an would not be studied, no one would follow its guidance, it would be recited mechanically etc.); the Masajid (mosques) would be grand structures but would be devoid of guidance; and the religious scholars of Islam who represent such people, would be the worst people beneath the sky.

So a lot of the barbaric acts we're seeing, is a sign that we're living in age of the antichrist...unfortunately.  So don't think that these acts are encouraged by the religion, they're not.  These acts are the result of poverty and lack of education (which the antichrist created by imposing a monetery system based on usury).  As a result, these weak people, out of envy, have decided to to use religion to rationalize their anger against other groups.


Quote
What about the war like writings in the koran instructing to kill the infadels. Note, i have not read the Koran, im going by what i have heard, so i could be wrong, please let me know.

In Islam, it's perfectly acceptable to defend yourself from aggressive enemies who want to kill you and your family.  So those verses were revealed to the prophet, during times of war, when other groups wanted to kill his early followers.

The prophet tried to make peace treaties with his enemies, and unfortunately the treaty was ignored and his enemies kept attacking his camp.  That's when the 'war like' verses came, saying to defeat the others, who're trying to harm you-- but the next verse (which a lot of critics ignore) says explicitly, don't hurt the enemy if they apologize.

I suggest you watch this movie... to see what kind of conflicts the prophet was going through http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlQ4Wxw5ky4

Then read the quran, and you'll get a better picture.  Remember, when studying these verses, it's important to study the setting and timing they were revealed.



Quote
Why do they HATE Christinas soooo much?

Cant belive no one else asked these questions.
plitically corectness should be out the door by now considering every day something new is happening in the name of Islam!

Again, Muslims are not suppose to HATE anyone.  Remember I said, the jinns feed off of that negative energy.

In terms of relations with Christians, it's strongly encouraged in the religion to try to be friends with Christians (the eastern Christians specifically) as they are the closest who'll understand our lifestyle.

There is although one verse, talking about not to become allies with Christians who have an alliances (militarily) with Jews.  Please note that at the time, it was very rare for such a military alliance to be in existence.... there was a lot of animosity between the two religious community.

It's only in the modern era (post 1940s-era), that we're seeing these types of alliances to be very common.  Specifically the Zionist community, or the christian involved in Freemasonry or the Orange order which promotes Zionism.  So it's those people we're discouraged to be allies with.


 
i wish we both religions followed the turn the other cheek thing, instead of defending your self--this would stop all the violence.

Really?  You think so?

I wish!
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on September 29, 2012, 09:03:50 PM
Did Islam mess up the entire Middle East? Be honest about it. I mean, I'll be the first one to admit that the Roman Catholic Church messed up western Europe during the Dark Ages and screwed up Latin America.

If you're referring to the secular individuals today, who claim to be Muslims, and carrying out not-so-islamic acts.... then yes.

But in the early years of the religion, when Europe was struggling with wars, Islam was at the forefront of human endeavors (science, math, philosophy, ...etc.).  A lot of inventions and discoveries were revealed in the Islamic region during the golden age:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

All this creativity came to an end, when people lost their spiritual ways, and didn't pay attention to their faith.... especially in regards to economic and political decisions.  Today, we're seeing the culmination of centuries of ignorance, where certain nations, that claim to be Muslim, impose an unislamic  (haram) financial system on the true muslim people...that's based on the principles of usury... thereby depriving them to enter an entrepreneurial or creative endeavor to help humanity..... and those that have wealth, unfortunately participate in the construction of tall building, big houses, ...etc.... distorting the market for raw materials, and misallocating capital towards superficial wishes.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Kerdy on September 29, 2012, 09:05:47 PM
Ok, you invited the questions. i will try to be as polite as i can.

"The religion of peace", tired of hearing this after all the murders and atrocities reported all over the world in the name of Islam.
 
how can this be the religion of peace when you take int account all that is going on??

I have read that the murders commited are Not a part of the true Islam, it that correct? can you explain that to me?

I hear you, and understand your frustration.  As I was alluding to earlier, we're living at the time what is called "the fitna of dajjal".  Or in english, "the chaotic times of the antichrist".

Everything is suppose to be chaotic, and all religions are being infiltrated and demonized.

One of the prophecies mentioned about the 'fitna of dajjal' is that...

“Nothing would remain of Islam but the name, and nothing would remain of the Qur’an but the traces (of its writing)"

That is, the Qur’an would not be studied, no one would follow its guidance, it would be recited mechanically etc.); the Masajid (mosques) would be grand structures but would be devoid of guidance; and the religious scholars of Islam who represent such people, would be the worst people beneath the sky.

So a lot of the barbaric acts we're seeing, is a sign that we're living in age of the antichrist...unfortunately.  So don't think that these acts are encouraged by the religion, they're not.  These acts are the result of poverty and lack of education (which the antichrist created by imposing a monetery system based on usury).  As a result, these weak people, out of envy, have decided to to use religion to rationalize their anger against other groups.


Quote
What about the war like writings in the koran instructing to kill the infadels. Note, i have not read the Koran, im going by what i have heard, so i could be wrong, please let me know.

In Islam, it's perfectly acceptable to defend yourself from aggressive enemies who want to kill you and your family.  So those verses were revealed to the prophet, during times of war, when other groups wanted to kill his early followers.

The prophet tried to make peace treaties with his enemies, and unfortunately the treaty was ignored and his enemies kept attacking his camp.  That's when the 'war like' verses came, saying to defeat the others, who're trying to harm you-- but the next verse (which a lot of critics ignore) says explicitly, don't hurt the enemy if they apologize.

I suggest you watch this movie... to see what kind of conflicts the prophet was going through http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlQ4Wxw5ky4

Then read the quran, and you'll get a better picture.  Remember, when studying these verses, it's important to study the setting and timing they were revealed.



Quote
Why do they HATE Christinas soooo much?

Cant belive no one else asked these questions.
plitically corectness should be out the door by now considering every day something new is happening in the name of Islam!

Again, Muslims are not suppose to HATE anyone.  Remember I said, the jinns feed off of that negative energy.

In terms of relations with Christians, it's strongly encouraged in the religion to try to be friends with Christians (the eastern Christians specifically) as they are the closest who'll understand our lifestyle.

There is although one verse, talking about not to become allies with Christians who have an alliances (militarily) with Jews.  Please note that at the time, it was very rare for such a military alliance to be in existence.... there was a lot of animosity between the two religious community.

It's only in the modern era (post 1940s-era), that we're seeing these types of alliances to be very common.  Specifically the Zionist community, or the christian involved in Freemasonry or the Orange order which promotes Zionism.  So it's those people we're discouraged to be allies with.


 
i wish we both religions followed the turn the other cheek thing, instead of defending your self--this would stop all the violence.

Really?  You think so?

I wish!
Me too, but we both know it won't happen.  Even if Christianity and Islam became best of friends, the rest of the world would not adhere to peaceful courses of action.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Ebor on September 29, 2012, 09:08:17 PM
Do Shi'a have the same belief regarding the eternality and uncreated nature of the Qur'an that the Sunnis apparently have? An acquaintance of mine who converted to Sunni Islam (apparently from some kind of Christianity, though I don't know exactly what) explained it to me once that the Qur'an is preserved since time immemorial in heaven on some kind of tablet, as are "uncorrupted"/original versions of the Torah and the Christian NT (in keeping with the mainstream Islamic view that these have been corrupted). I thought that was pretty interesting, but I don't really understand how it's supposed to work.  

Shia's do agree that the Qur'an is not corrupted... and there are many reasons why.  For one, it's in a poetic format, so it's easier to memorize.  So when these verses were revealed to the prophet, he would enunciate it out stanza by stanza (ie. verse by verse), so everyone was able to memorize it-- some would later go and write down the verse .  Later, when all the surahs (poems) were revealed, the early muslims compiled all these poems into one book--- which was the first quran.  This first quran is still around and that's why we believe it's not corrupted.

Can you tell us the location of this document please?  Also, in No God But God by Reza Aslan (p.125-126 in my paperback edition) writes that when when the Quran was written down as the various persons who had memorized it traveled to other areas small "mostly insignificant differences reflecting the local and cultural affinities of Muslim communities in Iraq or Syria or Basra..." began to appear.  Then around 650 A.D. Uthman ordered a definitive copy be produced and bound while other documents, with the inconsequential varients were to be burnt.    Have you read this book? It is a good historical overview, I think.

May I ask please what you know of the history of the compilation of the New Testament?

Ebor

Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Kerdy on September 29, 2012, 09:08:58 PM
Did Islam mess up the entire Middle East? Be honest about it. I mean, I'll be the first one to admit that the Roman Catholic Church messed up western Europe during the Dark Ages and screwed up Latin America.

If you're referring to the secular individuals today, who claim to be Muslims, and carrying out not-so-islamic acts.... then yes.

But in the early years of the religion, when Europe was struggling with wars, Islam was at the forefront of human endeavors (science, math, philosophy, ...etc.).  A lot of inventions and discoveries were revealed in the Islamic region during the golden age:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

All this creativity came to an end, when people lost their spiritual ways, and didn't pay attention to their faith.... especially in regards to economic and political decisions.  Today, we're seeing the culmination of centuries of ignorance, where certain nations, that claim to be Muslim, impose an unislamic  (haram) financial system on the true muslim people...that's based on the principles of usury... thereby depriving them to enter an entrepreneurial or creative endeavor to help humanity..... and those that have wealth, unfortunately participate in the construction of tall building, big houses, ...etc.... distorting the market for raw materials, and misallocating capital towards superficial wishes.
Wow, this sounds familiar.  Almost like its happened somewhere else in the last 100 or so years.  
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Ebor on September 29, 2012, 09:29:19 PM
What's the difference between Salafism and Wahhabism? Are those synonyms for the same basic idea? How widerspread Salafism and/or Wahhabism is among non-Saudi Muslims?

From my understanding, wahhabisim is a branch of Salafism.  A very very long time ago, they were kind of like Amish community of Anabaptist-- live in peaceful ways staying as true to the old ways as possible.

Unfortunately today, their community has been infiltrated, spoiled and heavily radicalized.

I'm not sure how widespread they are, but I can say that the radical elements of that sect is a very small minority - often funded by certain governments for political purposes.

The Wahhabi movement was begun by Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab (born 1703) who decided it was necessary to "purify" Islam of "superstitions innovations" (Aslan p.241) incorrect beliefs and accretions.  He made an alliance with Muhammad Ibn-Saud which led to the beginning of the Saudi rule in the Arabian Peninsula. It is still the main religious authority in Saudi Arabia to this day from what I have read.

Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Ebor on September 29, 2012, 09:46:57 PM
Did Islam mess up the entire Middle East? Be honest about it. I mean, I'll be the first one to admit that the Roman Catholic Church messed up western Europe during the Dark Ages and screwed up Latin America.

If you're referring to the secular individuals today, who claim to be Muslims, and carrying out not-so-islamic acts.... then yes.

But in the early years of the religion, when Europe was struggling with wars, Islam was at the forefront of human endeavors (science, math, philosophy, ...etc.).  A lot of inventions and discoveries were revealed in the Islamic region during the golden age:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

Could you please give a better idea of the timeframe that you are thinking of here?  Avicenna was flourishing around the early 11th century and Averroes, who was in Al-Andaluz lived in the 12th century. There were others but I mention these two as having a great deal of influence for quite some time.   So I'm not clear as to how this fits with the "early years of the religion" (around the 7th-9th centuries?)  There were things happening in various parts of Europe that were more than just struggling with war.  And there were certainly wars from the Moslem side in those years such as the conquest of the Iberian Penisula and the incursions into what is now France such as the Battle of Poitiers/Tours in 732. 

Quote
All this creativity came to an end, when people lost their spiritual ways, and didn't pay attention to their faith.... especially in regards to economic and political decisions.  

Can you explain this a bit more please?  Some of my readings say that the creativity was rather suppressed by some who came to power and did not want such things that they did not like or agree with to be allowed to continue.

Ebor
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on September 29, 2012, 09:47:56 PM
Peace be with you,

An honest question, and I mean no offense by it at all. But, why does the Quran condone striking a woman, and why does it say she is "below" the man? Should women not be loved and cherished?

Yes, will first of all, in Islamic thought

Men and Women are equal (spiritually) to God...  however, they're unequal physically and mentally to one another.  They're suppose to be compliments to one another (like ying yang, or the sun and the moon - as mentioned in the quran).

So believe me, a pious Muslim really loves the women in his family..... they're very important to him, it brings balance to his life.  Love is the ultimate positive energy.


Now about the striking of women, I think you're referring to a verse in surah 4 talking about a wife that is being hostile and not supportive to you. It's important when you're reading the quran, you also understand the timing and context of the verse.  So keep in mind, that based on hadiths, that this striking is to be done as the last resort, and should be done very gentally with something like a toothbrush.... to symbolically illustrate to her that you disapprove of her current state of attitude.

To elaborate more on this, consider the following analogy....
back in the 1600-1800s, when a man wanted to have duel with another man, he would slap his opponent with a glove to make the challenge.

similarly, in early arabic culture, a strike with a toothbrush (miswak) was a symbolic act to illustrate disappointment, it's very psychological


Now of course, there are some idiots, who take the verse literally with anger in their heart, and seriously harm their wife.  But these people exist all over the world, and they 'follow' all sorts of different religions.  

However, for someone who's really religious, it extremely unlikely they would take aggressive violent action, if their heart is pure and filled with peace.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Nikolaostheservant on September 29, 2012, 09:57:12 PM
Peace be with you,

An honest question, and I mean no offense by it at all. But, why does the Quran condone striking a woman, and why does it say she is "below" the man? Should women not be loved and cherished?

Yes, will first of all, in Islamic thought

Men and Women are equal (spiritually) to God...  however, they're unequal physically and mentally to one another.  They're suppose to be compliments to one another (like ying yang, or the sun and the moon - as mentioned in the quran).

So believe me, a pious Muslim really loves the women in his family..... they're very important to him, it brings balance to his life.  Love is the ultimate positive energy.


Now about the striking of women, I think you're referring to a verse in surah 4 talking about a wife that is being hostile and not supportive to you. It's important when you're reading the quran, you also understand the timing and context of the verse.  So keep in mind, that based on hadiths, that this striking is to be done as the last resort, and should be done very gentally with something like a toothbrush.... to symbolically illustrate to her that you disapprove of her current state of attitude.

To elaborate more on this, consider the following analogy....
back in the 1600-1800s, when a man wanted to have duel with another man, he would slap his opponent with a glove to make the challenge.

similarly, in early arabic culture, a strike with a toothbrush (miswak) was a symbolic act to illustrate disappointment, it's very psychological


Now of course, there are some idiots, who take the verse literally with anger in their heart, and seriously harm their wife.  But these people exist all over the world, and they 'follow' all sorts of different religions.  

However, for someone who's really religious, it extremely unlikely they would take aggressive violent action, if their heart is pure and filled with peace.


you know there IS a lot of wisdom in the Islamic religion/the Koran.
an almost poetic wisdom.
it to bad and so very sad that the idiots you mentioned above have taken parts of it and interpreted it in such a bad way.
that's probably what is going on with the state of affairs today regarding Islam.
its so very sad......

Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Nephi on September 29, 2012, 10:10:27 PM
Yes, will first of all, in Islamic thought

Men and Women are equal (spiritually) to God...  however, they're unequal physically and mentally to one another.  They're suppose to be compliments to one another (like ying yang, or the sun and the moon - as mentioned in the quran).

So believe me, a pious Muslim really loves the women in his family..... they're very important to him, it brings balance to his life.  Love is the ultimate positive energy.

That doesn't complement Q4:34 very well:
Quote
Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them.
From: here. (http://quran.com/4/34)

Do you view the above as obsolete and archaic, or current?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Agia Marina on September 29, 2012, 10:11:17 PM
Peace be with you,

An honest question, and I mean no offense by it at all. But, why does the Quran condone striking a woman, and why does it say she is "below" the man? Should women not be loved and cherished?

Yes, will first of all, in Islamic thought

Men and Women are equal (spiritually) to God...  however, they're unequal physically and mentally to one another.  They're suppose to be compliments to one another (like ying yang, or the sun and the moon - as mentioned in the quran).

So believe me, a pious Muslim really loves the women in his family..... they're very important to him, it brings balance to his life.  Love is the ultimate positive energy.


Now about the striking of women, I think you're referring to a verse in surah 4 talking about a wife that is being hostile and not supportive to you. It's important when you're reading the quran, you also understand the timing and context of the verse.  So keep in mind, that based on hadiths, that this striking is to be done as the last resort, and should be done very gentally with something like a toothbrush.... to symbolically illustrate to her that you disapprove of her current state of attitude.

To elaborate more on this, consider the following analogy....
back in the 1600-1800s, when a man wanted to have duel with another man, he would slap his opponent with a glove to make the challenge.

similarly, in early arabic culture, a strike with a toothbrush (miswak) was a symbolic act to illustrate disappointment, it's very psychological


Now of course, there are some idiots, who take the verse literally with anger in their heart, and seriously harm their wife.  But these people exist all over the world, and they 'follow' all sorts of different religions.  

However, for someone who's really religious, it extremely unlikely they would take aggressive violent action, if their heart is pure and filled with peace.

I don't understand your analogy.  A man slaps another man with a glove to indicate that they will fight to the death.  What relevance does that have to correcting a wife's inappropriate behavior, and does the wife have the same option for correcting her husband?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on September 29, 2012, 10:11:49 PM
Is there any distinction made in Islam between martyrdom (willingly being killed for the sake of your faith) and suicide (willingly killing yourself)? I ask because I know that some Muslims like to refer to suicide bombings as "martyrdom operations" or by similar terms, but that's quite different than how Christianity views martyrdom, so I'm curious if it is just a misuse of the word "martyr" or if anytime a Muslim dies in an action perceived to be done for his faith he is actually considered a martyr.

The best example of martyrdom in Islamic history, is the story of the prophet's grandson, Hussein in the battle of Karbala...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Karbala

He had to take care of a community that was dying, thirsty for water..... and had no choice butto  sacrifice himself to save the religion and the lives of his family and friends.  That's what martydom is.



Now in the current era, unfortunately though, there are some who are just angry..... and their mind is occupied with suicidal thoughts.  So rather than trying to get out of a hard situation in a peacful manner, they want to approach it in a violent way.... even though there are smater options.  This would be considered a sin.  Harming yourself in any way is a sin.

There are also hadiths talking about that on judgement day, people who thought they died as martyr, go straight to hell..... because they carried out those acts with anger from the beginning, not out of love for family and friends.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on September 29, 2012, 10:24:30 PM
Peace be with you,

An honest question, and I mean no offense by it at all. But, why does the Quran condone striking a woman, and why does it say she is "below" the man? Should women not be loved and cherished?

Yes, will first of all, in Islamic thought

Men and Women are equal (spiritually) to God...  however, they're unequal physically and mentally to one another.  They're suppose to be compliments to one another (like ying yang, or the sun and the moon - as mentioned in the quran).

So believe me, a pious Muslim really loves the women in his family..... they're very important to him, it brings balance to his life.  Love is the ultimate positive energy.


Now about the striking of women, I think you're referring to a verse in surah 4 talking about a wife that is being hostile and not supportive to you. It's important when you're reading the quran, you also understand the timing and context of the verse.  So keep in mind, that based on hadiths, that this striking is to be done as the last resort, and should be done very gentally with something like a toothbrush.... to symbolically illustrate to her that you disapprove of her current state of attitude.

To elaborate more on this, consider the following analogy....
back in the 1600-1800s, when a man wanted to have duel with another man, he would slap his opponent with a glove to make the challenge.

similarly, in early arabic culture, a strike with a toothbrush (miswak) was a symbolic act to illustrate disappointment, it's very psychological


Now of course, there are some idiots, who take the verse literally with anger in their heart, and seriously harm their wife.  But these people exist all over the world, and they 'follow' all sorts of different religions.  

However, for someone who's really religious, it extremely unlikely they would take aggressive violent action, if their heart is pure and filled with peace.

I don't understand your analogy.  A man slaps another man with a glove to indicate that they will fight to the death.  What relevance does that have to correcting a wife's inappropriate behavior, and does the wife have the same option for correcting her husband?

I used that analogy, to illustrate a certain symbolic gesture that existed in arabic culture.  The glove slap is a symbolic gesture that existed in western culture when duels were legal.

As for the female correcting her husband...... if she wants to strike him gently with a toothbrush, I don't see any problem with that, but I don't think it'll have the same psychological effect that it has when it's done to a female.  The reason is, females tend to be more emotional than men, it's just how our brains are wired.

Furthermore, if the husband is doing something bad that is completely opposite to the religion, it's best for her to get outside help from parents and other family members, if that doesn't work out, then she should go for a divorce.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on September 29, 2012, 10:31:34 PM
i wish we both religions followed the turn the other cheek thing, instead of defending your self--this would stop all the violence.

you sound like a very nice person...like most of the muslams i have known in my life.
when i sit and think of it, i have known and been good friends with many Muslims, never really thought abt it.
all were very likable people, some more then others.
and then i listen to the news and see (have u seen the recent decapitation of a Christian using an little knife to saw off his head, while he is alive and praying!!!) and hear all the crazy things that are done by muslams in the name of Islam/Alah.
How can anyone say anything good abt them when you see what they are doing.
the two just doesent gel, wha the heck is going on!

If Christians were doing the things the Muslims are doing to Christians, only to Muslims, i would say...you know what, i think this Christianity thing is full of sh8t, and reevaluate if Christianity is truly the correct religion i want to be a part of.

Well, as I discussed earlier, many religious Muslims today believe, we're living in the chaotic times of the anti-christ (fitna of dajjal).

All these barbaric acts were prophesied to happen.  The prophet did say that in the future, majority of Muslim will just practice the religion mechanically, take things literally and not spiritually.  So that's why there's so much chaos going on, unfortunatlly.

I think the best thing is to study history, and see what evils have happened in the past that created the bigger evil today.  In almost all cases, it narrows down to fundamentally flawed economic system that's based on usury.  When there is no genuine economic growth (ie. no revolutionary inventions/discovery happening, that would yield new jobs), that's when chaos starts.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Kerdy on September 29, 2012, 10:38:12 PM
Is there any distinction made in Islam between martyrdom (willingly being killed for the sake of your faith) and suicide (willingly killing yourself)? I ask because I know that some Muslims like to refer to suicide bombings as "martyrdom operations" or by similar terms, but that's quite different than how Christianity views martyrdom, so I'm curious if it is just a misuse of the word "martyr" or if anytime a Muslim dies in an action perceived to be done for his faith he is actually considered a martyr.

The best example of martyrdom in Islamic history, is the story of the prophet's grandson, Hussein in the battle of Karbala...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Karbala

He had to take care of a community that was dying, thirsty for water..... and had no choice butto  sacrifice himself to save the religion and the lives of his family and friends.  That's what martydom is.



Now in the current era, unfortunately though, there are some who are just angry..... and their mind is occupied with suicidal thoughts.  So rather than trying to get out of a hard situation in a peacful manner, they want to approach it in a violent way.... even though there are smater options.  This would be considered a sin.  Harming yourself in any way is a sin.

There are also hadiths talking about that on judgement day, people who thought they died as martyr, go straight to hell..... because they carried out those acts with anger from the beginning, not out of love for family and friends.
So, what happens to these angry nut cases who kill others in ther suicide mission?  According to your understanding of Islam.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on September 29, 2012, 10:40:42 PM
Quote
In terms of relations with Christians, it's strongly encouraged in the religion to try to be friends with Christians

Peace be with you,

But why then does the Koran say that Muslims are not to take Jews and Christians as friends?

Peace be with you aswell,

I've discussed that verse in the same post you quoted.

That verse was referring to Jews and Christians who have political, military, and economic alliances with one another.  In the modern era, it's referring to christian/jews involved in Zionism, Freemasonry, orange order, ...etc. 

During the prophet's time however, it was very rare to find christian communities that had such close alliances with Jewish communities.  There was always animosity between the two.  However, there were some wealthy christian people, who belonged to the ruling class of their nation and had secret relationships with the Jewish community.  What these wealthy Christians did, was secretly give a lot money to the Jewish lenders, and had them lend it out and charge usury on it.  They did this, because they couldn't do out in the open because of their public image.  It's these "shallow Christians", that we're advised not to get too close with.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Kerdy on September 29, 2012, 10:45:15 PM
i wish we both religions followed the turn the other cheek thing, instead of defending your self--this would stop all the violence.

you sound like a very nice person...like most of the muslams i have known in my life.
when i sit and think of it, i have known and been good friends with many Muslims, never really thought abt it.
all were very likable people, some more then others.
and then i listen to the news and see (have u seen the recent decapitation of a Christian using an little knife to saw off his head, while he is alive and praying!!!) and hear all the crazy things that are done by muslams in the name of Islam/Alah.
How can anyone say anything good abt them when you see what they are doing.
the two just doesent gel, wha the heck is going on!

If Christians were doing the things the Muslims are doing to Christians, only to Muslims, i would say...you know what, i think this Christianity thing is full of sh8t, and reevaluate if Christianity is truly the correct religion i want to be a part of.

Well, as I discussed earlier, many religious Muslims today believe, we're living in the chaotic times of the anti-christ (fitna of dajjal).

All these barbaric acts were prophesied to happen.  The prophet did say that in the future, majority of Muslim will just practice the religion mechanically, take things literally and not spiritually.  So that's why there's so much chaos going on, unfortunatlly.

I think the best thing is to study history, and see what evils have happened in the past that created the bigger evil today.  In almost all cases, it narrows down to fundamentally flawed economic system that's based on usury.  When there is no genuine economic growth (ie. no revolutionary inventions/discovery happening, that would yield new jobs), that's when chaos starts.
I disagree.  Each person is responsible for his or her own actions.  This blame game doesn't work anywhere else either and I always run the flag up when I see it.  Many Christians believe we are living in the end times, but you don't see them waging religious war against the world, not violently anyway.  Nope, the people who do evil acts are evil people and they WANT to do these thing.  They have found an "out" to use which they feel allows them to kill indiscriminately.  When my kids blame other people for doing something wrong, my kids still get punished.  It's not an acceptable excuse.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Timon on September 29, 2012, 10:45:40 PM
Could you go into more detail about the "chaotic times of the antichrist"? Are there any references/sources that could help me understand all of this better?  I would like to understand better about why their is currently so much violence in this religion.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on September 29, 2012, 10:45:53 PM
Is there any distinction made in Islam between martyrdom (willingly being killed for the sake of your faith) and suicide (willingly killing yourself)? I ask because I know that some Muslims like to refer to suicide bombings as "martyrdom operations" or by similar terms, but that's quite different than how Christianity views martyrdom, so I'm curious if it is just a misuse of the word "martyr" or if anytime a Muslim dies in an action perceived to be done for his faith he is actually considered a martyr.

The best example of martyrdom in Islamic history, is the story of the prophet's grandson, Hussein in the battle of Karbala...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Karbala

He had to take care of a community that was dying, thirsty for water..... and had no choice butto  sacrifice himself to save the religion and the lives of his family and friends.  That's what martydom is.



Now in the current era, unfortunately though, there are some who are just angry..... and their mind is occupied with suicidal thoughts.  So rather than trying to get out of a hard situation in a peacful manner, they want to approach it in a violent way.... even though there are smater options.  This would be considered a sin.  Harming yourself in any way is a sin.

There are also hadiths talking about that on judgement day, people who thought they died as martyr, go straight to hell..... because they carried out those acts with anger from the beginning, not out of love for family and friends.
So, what's happens to these angry nut cases to kill others in ther suicide mission?  According to your understanding of Islam.

If they had better options prior to their act, then most likely they're going to hell.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: dzheremi on September 29, 2012, 10:48:57 PM
Yeah, I really just wanted to know if there's a difference between the suicide bombers and actual martyrs. I think that many suicide bombers would say, perhaps not entirely without reason, that they are carrying out an extreme act for the defense of their community (to repel invaders or occupiers) This does not square with the Christian understanding of martyrdom (even our military saints like St. George or Abu Seifain are not considered martyrs for having taken up the sword in battles, but for having died at the hands of the authorities for the sake of their faith). So I don't understand the position taken by some Muslims that if someone dies while spilling another's blood, they're a martyr so long as they're doing it for the sake of their faith.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on September 29, 2012, 10:58:02 PM
Could you go into more detail about the "chaotic times of the antichrist"? Are there any references/sources that could help me understand all of this better?  I would like to understand better about why their is currently so much violence in this religion.

It's called 'fitna of dajjal',

here's a short pdf of the topic I just found...

http://hubeali.com/articles/The-Fitna-of-Dajjal.pdf


Note that most of these prophecies are metaphorical... when it's talking about the donkey, it's refering to airplane, the one-eye is referring to the symbol of Annuit cœptis that dajjal will be pledging to.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on September 29, 2012, 11:18:45 PM
I'm confused and discouraged by your answer, Fibonacci. Did you read the article? It is not about the leaders or histories of terrorist groups, but about individuals who decide to commit terrorism, and it shows that those individuals are likely to be richer and more educated than the general populace, not poorer or less educated.

Dzheremi, I'm discussing the issue from a macro perspective.  I wouldn't be surprised that there are some people that join Hamas are relatively from the wealthier and more educated families of Palestine, but do you honestly see Palestine as a whole to be a very wealthy nation? If Palestine was a wealthier nation--that is, they have a thriving manufacturing base with lots of jobs, then there is no doubt in my mind that those group wouldn't exist/operate in those regions.   Same reason why AQ operates in poor countries like Afghanistan and Pakistan.

There are also many other studies I've seen, saying that radicalism occurs in regions with limited jobs/capital investment.  It's really common sense, if you ask me.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Ebor on September 29, 2012, 11:32:16 PM
What about the war like writings in the koran instructing to kill the infadels. Note, i have not read the Koran, im going by what i have heard, so i could be wrong, please let me know.

In Islam, it's perfectly acceptable to defend yourself from aggressive enemies who want to kill you and your family.  So those verses were revealed to the prophet, during times of war, when other groups wanted to kill his early followers.

Well, a while ago there was a muslim poster, Mekki who was Sunni, here on the forum who maintained, as I recall, "defending" oneself could be an acceptable reason to attack others who were not being aggressive because since they were different/non-Muslim they were in some way a threat to Islam by their being.  


Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Agia Marina on September 29, 2012, 11:33:02 PM
Peace be with you,

An honest question, and I mean no offense by it at all. But, why does the Quran condone striking a woman, and why does it say she is "below" the man? Should women not be loved and cherished?

Yes, will first of all, in Islamic thought

Men and Women are equal (spiritually) to God...  however, they're unequal physically and mentally to one another.  They're suppose to be compliments to one another (like ying yang, or the sun and the moon - as mentioned in the quran).

So believe me, a pious Muslim really loves the women in his family..... they're very important to him, it brings balance to his life.  Love is the ultimate positive energy.


Now about the striking of women, I think you're referring to a verse in surah 4 talking about a wife that is being hostile and not supportive to you. It's important when you're reading the quran, you also understand the timing and context of the verse.  So keep in mind, that based on hadiths, that this striking is to be done as the last resort, and should be done very gentally with something like a toothbrush.... to symbolically illustrate to her that you disapprove of her current state of attitude.

To elaborate more on this, consider the following analogy....
back in the 1600-1800s, when a man wanted to have duel with another man, he would slap his opponent with a glove to make the challenge.

similarly, in early arabic culture, a strike with a toothbrush (miswak) was a symbolic act to illustrate disappointment, it's very psychological


Now of course, there are some idiots, who take the verse literally with anger in their heart, and seriously harm their wife.  But these people exist all over the world, and they 'follow' all sorts of different religions.  

However, for someone who's really religious, it extremely unlikely they would take aggressive violent action, if their heart is pure and filled with peace.

I don't understand your analogy.  A man slaps another man with a glove to indicate that they will fight to the death.  What relevance does that have to correcting a wife's inappropriate behavior, and does the wife have the same option for correcting her husband?

I used that analogy, to illustrate a certain symbolic gesture that existed in arabic culture.  The glove slap is a symbolic gesture that existed in western culture when duels were legal.
So, then, the Qu'ran does allow a husband to symbolically strike the wife. 

Quote
As for the female correcting her husband...... if she wants to strike him gently with a toothbrush, I don't see any problem with that, but I don't think it'll have the same psychological effect that it has when it's done to a female.  The reason is, females tend to be more emotional than men, it's just how our brains are wired.
What does the Qu'ran have to say about it? 

Quote
Furthermore, if the husband is doing something bad that is completely opposite to the religion, it's best for her to get outside help from parents and other family members, if that doesn't work out, then she should go for a divorce.
Wouldn't that be cause to symbolically strike the wife?

I also have questions regarding Islamic women and rape.  I understand that, in order for the woman to prove rape, the rapist must confess to the crime, or the rape must be witnessed by four males.  Please explain.  Thank you.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Ebor on September 29, 2012, 11:38:22 PM
Could you go into more detail about the "chaotic times of the antichrist"? Are there any references/sources that could help me understand all of this better?  I would like to understand better about why their is currently so much violence in this religion.

It's called 'fitna of dajjal',

here's a short pdf of the topic I just found...

http://hubeali.com/articles/The-Fitna-of-Dajjal.pdf


Note that most of these prophecies are metaphorical... when it's talking about the donkey, it's refering to airplane, the one-eye is referring to the symbol of Annuit cœptis that dajjal will be pledging to.

Do you know what the date and source of this document is please?  The historical setting of a document is important in undertanding things, as you yourself have written.

Also, saying that a donkey is really an airplane is an interpretation from a modern perspective, since such craft have only been around for a bit over a century.  How do you *know* that those interpretations are correct?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: dzheremi on September 29, 2012, 11:47:33 PM
I'm confused and discouraged by your answer, Fibonacci. Did you read the article? It is not about the leaders or histories of terrorist groups, but about individuals who decide to commit terrorism, and it shows that those individuals are likely to be richer and more educated than the general populace, not poorer or less educated.

Dzheremi, I'm discussing the issue from a macro perspective.  I wouldn't be surprised that there are some people that join Hamas are relatively from the wealthier and more educated families of Palestine, but do you honestly see Palestine as a whole to be a very wealthy nation? If Palestine was a wealthier nation--that is, they have a thriving manufacturing base with lots of jobs, then there is no doubt in my mind that those group wouldn't exist/operate in those regions.   Same reason why AQ operates in poor countries like Afghanistan and Pakistan.

There are also many other studies I've seen, saying that radicalism occurs in regions with limited jobs/capital investment.  It's really common sense, if you ask me.

I don't think anyone would argue that having jobs and capital investment makes terrorism less popular on the whole. I'm only arguing that, based on the data of people who have actually looked at the problem, the stereotype of the terrorist as disenfranchised and ignorant does not hold water. Ayman al-Zawahiri is a medical doctor. Bin Laden was a multimillionaire. The Nigeria underwear bomber whose name I cannot remember had a degree from a college in London. Terrorism can and does attract people from many different backgrounds on a purely ideological basis. If it were all about local conditions, we would not see Western converts going to Afghanistan to fight against Western troops. or Saudis and Afghans helping to fight the Russians in the Caucasus, or Arabs supporting Islamist terrorists in the Philippines (who already have their own "Autonomous Province of Muslim Mindanao"., where they are not even the majority religion), etc.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on September 30, 2012, 12:28:46 AM
Do Shi'a have the same belief regarding the eternality and uncreated nature of the Qur'an that the Sunnis apparently have? An acquaintance of mine who converted to Sunni Islam (apparently from some kind of Christianity, though I don't know exactly what) explained it to me once that the Qur'an is preserved since time immemorial in heaven on some kind of tablet, as are "uncorrupted"/original versions of the Torah and the Christian NT (in keeping with the mainstream Islamic view that these have been corrupted). I thought that was pretty interesting, but I don't really understand how it's supposed to work.  

Shia's do agree that the Qur'an is not corrupted... and there are many reasons why.  For one, it's in a poetic format, so it's easier to memorize.  So when these verses were revealed to the prophet, he would enunciate it out stanza by stanza (ie. verse by verse), so everyone was able to memorize it-- some would later go and write down the verse .  Later, when all the surahs (poems) were revealed, the early muslims compiled all these poems into one book--- which was the first quran.  This first quran is still around and that's why we believe it's not corrupted.

Can you tell us the location of this document please?  Also, in No God But God by Reza Aslan (p.125-126 in my paperback edition) writes that when when the Quran was written down as the various persons who had memorized it traveled to other areas small "mostly insignificant differences reflecting the local and cultural affinities of Muslim communities in Iraq or Syria or Basra..." began to appear.  Then around 650 A.D. Uthman ordered a definitive copy be produced and bound while other documents, with the inconsequential varients were to be burnt.    Have you read this book? It is a good historical overview, I think.

May I ask please what you know of the history of the compilation of the New Testament?

Ebor


I'm certain the book is located in Uzbekistan.   I've tried to see some of the text of the book, but all I could find on the internet are pictures of certain verses.  I think you'll have to physically go to that location to the read the book.

About the NT, I'm not an expert on it.  But  I do know, that today there are many different versions/translation of the original text.  The original text however, is not any museum atm, but Muslims believe that in the future they will be revealed again, so there is no doubt about the truth.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on September 30, 2012, 01:09:39 AM
Did Islam mess up the entire Middle East? Be honest about it. I mean, I'll be the first one to admit that the Roman Catholic Church messed up western Europe during the Dark Ages and screwed up Latin America.

If you're referring to the secular individuals today, who claim to be Muslims, and carrying out not-so-islamic acts.... then yes.

But in the early years of the religion, when Europe was struggling with wars, Islam was at the forefront of human endeavors (science, math, philosophy, ...etc.).  A lot of inventions and discoveries were revealed in the Islamic region during the golden age:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

Could you please give a better idea of the timeframe that you are thinking of here?  Avicenna was flourishing around the early 11th century and Averroes, who was in Al-Andaluz lived in the 12th century. There were others but I mention these two as having a great deal of influence for quite some time.   So I'm not clear as to how this fits with the "early years of the religion" (around the 7th-9th centuries?)  There were things happening in various parts of Europe that were more than just struggling with war.  And there were certainly wars from the Moslem side in those years such as the conquest of the Iberian Penisula and the incursions into what is now France such as the Battle of Poitiers/Tours in 732. 

Quote
All this creativity came to an end, when people lost their spiritual ways, and didn't pay attention to their faith.... especially in regards to economic and political decisions. 

Can you explain this a bit more please?  Some of my readings say that the creativity was rather suppressed by some who came to power and did not want such things that they did not like or agree with to be allowed to continue.

Ebor

Ebor, please forgive me, but I only know of historical facts from a macro perspective.  I try not to spend too much time on minor facts.... like dates and places
but from what I've read a long time ago, there was a golden era from 700 - 1200 ad in regions like Iraq and Persia (Iran), where a lot of muslims were pushing the barriers of science and math.  Many topics that we study in modern science has it's origins from that era-- but not properly credited unfortunately... like Al- gebra, Al- gorithm, Al- chemy...etc.

Here are some prominent scientists--

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jabir_ibn_Hayyan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhazen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Jazari

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_al-Qasim_al-Zahrawi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Mūsā_al-Khwārizmī

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avicenna

There are many more, and I encourage you check it out....

The creativity stopped, when the economic/political systems changed that hindered their progress.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: dzheremi on September 30, 2012, 01:36:23 AM
About the NT, I'm not an expert on it.  But  I do know, that today there are many different versions/translation of the original text.  The original text however, is not any museum atm, but Muslims believe that in the future they will be revealed again, so there is no doubt about the truth.

This is a projection of flawed Islamic epistemology onto Christian revelation that absolutely does not work. To talk about the "original text" of the Bible, we must ask you first which book you are claiming to be corrupted, and in what way. The Bible did not fall out of the sky one day, whole and complete with table of contents and authenticating watermarks or papers. It is a collection of books, and which ones make it into the canon and which ones do not can vary depending on the church in question. It is perhaps a bit more useful to compare it (albeit imperfectly) to the status of the Qur'an before Uthman's canonization of that text, where regional variant readings were commonplace (e.g., Kufa had its own reading that differed from other places). Even churches which are in communion with each other (such as the Egyptian church and the Armenian church) may not have exactly the same canon, but neither says of the other that they do not have the "true" or "original" Bible, because the faith that they hold to is the same,  brought to them by the apostles who predate the canonization of the Bible in any one particular church.

This is the problem in Islam's form of self-knowledge and acceptance of revelation, from a Christian perspective: In Christianity, the revelation to and salvation of man is through the Word made flesh in the person of Jesus Christ, with the Bible flowing out of that experience of God among us. In Islam, by contrast, there is no incarnation and hence the revelation is through the written text of a book. This would be much less strange to us if Islam didn't then turn around and call us "People of the Book" (we were people of God for centuries upon centuries before "the Book" was ever canonized), while also chastising us for our supposed but unproven failure to preserve our Book, all because we did not do as Uthman did and create a redacted version which we would then be seen as "the original" (when in fact that is not a problem, because for the Old Testament we have had the LXX since before the incarnation of Christ, and the New Testament is at least the 27 books first declared canonical by St. Athanasius the Apostolic several hundred years before Muhammad or Islam existed, which is still what you'll find in the Bible today).

Please do more study into the NT and its canonization before deciding that the common Islamic viewpoint on it is the correct one by default. We are dealing with two completely different systems of revelation and preservation, and for all the supposed uniformity (~ authenticity?) guaranteed through yours, ours has proven no less reliable in the face of higher textual criticism (the type of which Islamic orthodoxy has not allowed up until this day; cf. the Sana'a manuscript), and with far less destruction of period texts than Uthman's method (i.e., non-canonical gospels and other writings such as those of the early Church Fathers were preserved as sources of tradition in a way that might be familiar to you if you keep to sahih hadith -- they're not considered on the same level as the Bible itself, but they provide us with glimpses into the lives of the early Christians, so that we know, for instance, that the Bible that we have today is the same as that of the early Christians, and our services have preserved their practices, etc).
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Kerdy on September 30, 2012, 02:35:53 AM
Is there an official position in Islam on evolution?  I know I used to visit a Muslim webpage which had a lot of information refuting evolution.  How does Islam reconcile its position on the matter?  Thanks!
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Ebor on September 30, 2012, 09:32:15 AM
Did Islam mess up the entire Middle East? Be honest about it. I mean, I'll be the first one to admit that the Roman Catholic Church messed up western Europe during the Dark Ages and screwed up Latin America.

If you're referring to the secular individuals today, who claim to be Muslims, and carrying out not-so-islamic acts.... then yes.

But in the early years of the religion, when Europe was struggling with wars, Islam was at the forefront of human endeavors (science, math, philosophy, ...etc.).  A lot of inventions and discoveries were revealed in the Islamic region during the golden age:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

Could you please give a better idea of the timeframe that you are thinking of here?  Avicenna was flourishing around the early 11th century and Averroes, who was in Al-Andaluz lived in the 12th century. There were others but I mention these two as having a great deal of influence for quite some time.   So I'm not clear as to how this fits with the "early years of the religion" (around the 7th-9th centuries?)  There were things happening in various parts of Europe that were more than just struggling with war.  And there were certainly wars from the Moslem side in those years such as the conquest of the Iberian Penisula and the incursions into what is now France such as the Battle of Poitiers/Tours in 732. 

Quote
All this creativity came to an end, when people lost their spiritual ways, and didn't pay attention to their faith.... especially in regards to economic and political decisions. 

Can you explain this a bit more please?  Some of my readings say that the creativity was rather suppressed by some who came to power and did not want such things that they did not like or agree with to be allowed to continue.

Ebor

Ebor, please forgive me, but I only know of historical facts from a macro perspective.  I try not to spend too much time on minor facts.... like dates and places

I'm sorry, but when making claims about history the times and places are not "minor" facts. They matter.  Good verifiable information can support a person's ideas while errors will not. Dates and places are some of the important facts that are needed to establish what truely happened when and where.   They are part of the context that is necessary to understand the larger picture. 
Meaning no offense to you, but having a "macro perspective" of history sounds vague. If I were to make some claim about history of an event I would have to give some checkable information for other people to use to find out (if they wanted) that such a situation was True.  Just because there was some idea that I liked doesn't mean that it is the truth.

Quote
but from what I've read a long time ago, there was a golden era from 700 - 1200 ad in regions like Iraq and Persia (Iran), where a lot of muslims were pushing the barriers of science and math.  Many topics that we study in modern science has it's origins from that era-- but not properly credited unfortunately... like Al- gebra, Al- gorithm, Al- chemy...etc.

Not properly credited?  The constellations book that I had as a child stated (and it certainly is common knowledge in astronomy) that many star names are from Arabic.  Algebra comes from then and mathematicians haven't tried to cover up the roots.  However, Alchemy is not a purely Arabic word as it comes from the Greek "chemia" with an "al" added and the word then goes through Latin to Old French and then to English.  http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/alchemy
Working with materials and elements was not a new development from Persia.

May I ask if you recall materials you read that did not give the historical information or, since you say "a long time ago" how long ago that was and where? 

Thank you for the list of people.  I know of them and mentioned Avicenna, for example, in my earlier post.  I have read various works on the period and culture including in the last year the book I mentioned No god But God by Reza Aslan who is originally from Iran. The book's sub-title is The Origins, Evolution and Future of Islam and it can be found in hardback, paperback and in libraries.

Quote
There are many more, and I encourage you check it out....

The creativity stopped, when the economic/political systems changed that hindered their progress.


I apologize for any unintended offense, but I know more of the subject than you seem to think that I do.  And I disagree with your idea as to what brought the Golden Age to an end.  In Spain/Al-Andaluz for example there was suppression of the thought and philosophy of other Muslims under the Almohad rulers.  I suppose that one might say that that was a change in the "political system" but it wasn't along the lines that you described above.  Here is the wiki link on the Almohad reforms though I can find other material on this if desired.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almohad_reforms
Wikipedia can be a good starting place but deeper understanding comes from the sources and cited materials.

Ebor
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Theophilos78 on September 30, 2012, 09:39:39 AM
Why is it written in the Qur'an that Jesus' mother Mary was the daughter of Amram (Surah 3:35, Surah 66:12) and sister of Aaron (Surah 19:28)? Isn't it obvious that the author of the Qur'an accidentally assimilated the Miriam of the Old Testament (Daughter of Amram in 1 Chronicles 6:3; Sister of Aaron in Exodus 15:20) to Jesus' mother Miriam?

This is a very interesting point, and I'm going to do some more studying on it....

but remember, these surahs are poetic, and typically, these poems reveal many different stories, all of which are valid
you just have to read them from different perspectives... to get the point

Thanks for taking time and answering. :)

now if you're reading these verses, thinking about Mary the mother of Jesus, Amram is mentioned because she's from that linage..... most likely her father's last name was Amram

Mary actually descended from the tribe of Judah though. Thus, she was not a Levite and Amram was not her ancestor. More to the point, Surah 3:35 claims that Amram was Mary's immediate father (It's said that Amram's wife gave birth to Mary).

in the second case, Surah 19:28, it's clearly a play-on-word, if you read it carefully...... a man from her community was criticizing her for having Jesus, and telling her how surprised he was, that someone who comes from a very religious family, who's name is the same as Mariam, the sister of Aaron, why she would have such "a baby out of wedlock".

Again, Mary was not a Levite. She did not descend from a priestly family. The problem with this argument is that it disregards that Moses and Aaron's actual sister is mentioned in the Qur'an, but never named. Thus, the Qur'an talks of no other Miriam for a comparison. According to the author of the Qur'an, there was one Miriam in history and this Miriam, who was the daughter of Amram and sister of Aaron, was Jesus' mother. Finally, this kind of a usage is alien to Semitic culture. Nowhere were females called sisters of Aaron for a comparison. The actual term used is daughter of Aaron rather than sister of Aaron.

Does it really seem coincidental to you that Jesus' mother Miriam is designated in the Qur'an as BOTH the sister of Aaron and Amram's daughter? It looks like Miriam's father was accidentally named Amram in Surah 3:35 since in the earliest chapter (Surah 19) Mary was accidentally identified as the sister of Aaron. In other words, the confusion and blunder continued and developed.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Ebor on September 30, 2012, 10:07:12 AM
Do Shi'a have the same belief regarding the eternality and uncreated nature of the Qur'an that the Sunnis apparently have? An acquaintance of mine who converted to Sunni Islam (apparently from some kind of Christianity, though I don't know exactly what) explained it to me once that the Qur'an is preserved since time immemorial in heaven on some kind of tablet, as are "uncorrupted"/original versions of the Torah and the Christian NT (in keeping with the mainstream Islamic view that these have been corrupted). I thought that was pretty interesting, but I don't really understand how it's supposed to work.  

Shia's do agree that the Qur'an is not corrupted... and there are many reasons why.  For one, it's in a poetic format, so it's easier to memorize.  So when these verses were revealed to the prophet, he would enunciate it out stanza by stanza (ie. verse by verse), so everyone was able to memorize it-- some would later go and write down the verse .  Later, when all the surahs (poems) were revealed, the early muslims compiled all these poems into one book--- which was the first quran.  This first quran is still around and that's why we believe it's not corrupted.

Can you tell us the location of this document please?  Also, in No God But God by Reza Aslan (p.125-126 in my paperback edition) writes that when when the Quran was written down as the various persons who had memorized it traveled to other areas small "mostly insignificant differences reflecting the local and cultural affinities of Muslim communities in Iraq or Syria or Basra..." began to appear.  Then around 650 A.D. Uthman ordered a definitive copy be produced and bound while other documents, with the inconsequential varients were to be burnt.    Have you read this book? It is a good historical overview, I think.

May I ask please what you know of the history of the compilation of the New Testament?

Ebor


I'm certain the book is located in Uzbekistan.   I've tried to see some of the text of the book, but all I could find on the internet are pictures of certain verses.  I think you'll have to physically go to that location to the read the book.

Here is an article from the BBC in 06 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4581684.stm
 on a manuscript that is said to be the Quran of Uthman/Othman and that is located in Tashkent. It is so fragile that it is kept in a special case and people are not able to just read it.  The report also says that due to the deterioration over the centuries of the deer skin on which it was written only about 1/3 of it, about 250 pages, still exists.  There is a reference to another partial copy (five were said to have been made at the time, not just one) that is in the Topkapi Palace in Istanbul.

This counters the claim that the "original" Quran is preserved in totality.

Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Ebor on September 30, 2012, 03:09:33 PM

Yes, will first of all, in Islamic thought

Men and Women are equal (spiritually) to God...  however, they're unequal physically and mentally to one another.  

Would you please explain a bit more on your idea of males and females being "unequal" mentally?   Thank you in advance

As to the physical, while in general the average adult male is taller and stronger than the average adult female, it is not applicable to all human beings across the board.  It is not a "Law of the Universe" as it were.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Theophilos78 on September 30, 2012, 04:26:39 PM
A question related to Ebor's question about women above

We read in the Qur'an that Satan's tricks are weak (Surah 4:76).

Yet we also read in the same Qur'an that the Egyptian officer that bought Joseph said that the tricks of women are mighty (Surah 12:28).

This means when compared to Satan, women are stronger and worse in terms of deceit.

Why does the Qur'an make such a statement? How can women be mightier than Satan in terms of deceit?

Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: JamesR on September 30, 2012, 05:29:53 PM
I have a question. I am not entirely certain of the official Muslim position, so I am only asking based off of personal experience and what I have heard. Anyway, according to many Muslims I have met, they claim that particular passages in the New Testament gospels are prophecies predicting the arrival of Muhammed, yet, these very same people also claim that the documents themselves were corrupted. Seems contradictory to me. How can you do that?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 01, 2012, 04:29:09 PM
Yes, will first of all, in Islamic thought

Men and Women are equal (spiritually) to God...  however, they're unequal physically and mentally to one another.  They're suppose to be compliments to one another (like ying yang, or the sun and the moon - as mentioned in the quran).

So believe me, a pious Muslim really loves the women in his family..... they're very important to him, it brings balance to his life.  Love is the ultimate positive energy.

That doesn't complement Q4:34 very well:
Quote
Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them.
From: here. (http://quran.com/4/34)

Do you view the above as obsolete and archaic, or current?

Hi, the problem is, you're reading this from a negative viewpoint.... or a feminist viewpoint (remember in Islam, men are considered the leaders of the family--in terms of financial stability)

Now, do you honestly believe that a religious husband who loves his wife, would beat her violently?

It's common sense he wouldn't do such a thing.... the problem is the English language and some Arab translators who didn't take the effort to find the right terms.

When you have a wife who lusts after another man, does something immoral and rebellious, like for example something as extreme as seeing her dance with another man...

and you've tried everything with her, from talking frank with her, to separating sleeping area, to separating physically for a few days......as the last ditch effort, to keep the marriage/family together, it is permissible, to shake her (gently) to bring sense into her, or make a symbolic gesture like a slap on the wrist with a toothbrush/miswak (as mentioned in the hadiths).  It's a last-ditch emotional/psychological-focused effort to keep the marriage together.  Family is everything to the Muslim community..... if a family is broken up, that's when evils come into the community.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 01, 2012, 04:50:26 PM
Is there any distinction made in Islam between martyrdom (willingly being killed for the sake of your faith) and suicide (willingly killing yourself)? I ask because I know that some Muslims like to refer to suicide bombings as "martyrdom operations" or by similar terms, but that's quite different than how Christianity views martyrdom, so I'm curious if it is just a misuse of the word "martyr" or if anytime a Muslim dies in an action perceived to be done for his faith he is actually considered a martyr.

The best example of martyrdom in Islamic history, is the story of the prophet's grandson, Hussein in the battle of Karbala...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Karbala

He had to take care of a community that was dying, thirsty for water..... and had no choice butto  sacrifice himself to save the religion and the lives of his family and friends.  That's what martydom is.



Now in the current era, unfortunately though, there are some who are just angry..... and their mind is occupied with suicidal thoughts.  So rather than trying to get out of a hard situation in a peacful manner, they want to approach it in a violent way.... even though there are smater options.  This would be considered a sin.  Harming yourself in any way is a sin.

There are also hadiths talking about that on judgement day, people who thought they died as martyr, go straight to hell..... because they carried out those acts with anger from the beginning, not out of love for family and friends.
So, what happens to these angry nut cases who kill others in ther suicide mission?  According to your understanding of Islam.

Can you tell me who you're referring to, and what 'mission' where they trying to do?

Again, I can only explain things from my perspective..... not the wahabbi perspective.

The wahabbies believe that they should ignore all non-violent options, and go with the most violent option to settle a dispute.

Unfortunately, it's the shia community that is suffering the most with these ideas.

Such act is not what majority Muslims (especially the shias), believe in.  In fact, I challenge you to find a shia or non-wahabbi 'suicide bomber' doing such an action in a region during peace time (not in a war).

 
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: serb1389 on October 01, 2012, 05:59:11 PM
subscribed. 
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 01, 2012, 06:32:45 PM
I disagree.  Each person is responsible for his or her own actions.  This blame game doesn't work anywhere else either and I always run the flag up when I see it.  Many Christians believe we are living in the end times, but you don't see them waging religious war against the world, not violently anyway.  Nope, the people who do evil acts are evil people and they WANT to do these thing.  They have found an "out" to use which they feel allows them to kill indiscriminately.  When my kids blame other people for doing something wrong, my kids still get punished.  It's not an acceptable excuse.

Kerdy.....

as I said in my last post, I can't speak for the wahabbi sect, who everyone knows....are today the ones that kill indiscriminately.   You do know that this small sect, was started and heavily financed by the Saudi monarchy, US and other Nato nations for political purposes?  They do the dirty work to give reasons for other nations to come conquer lands for natural resources- and/or restrict resources to keep having a monopoly on a certain industry.

Iran (shia sect) has been fighting these violent groups throughout the 90s, at a time when no one in the world was paying attention.  So I don't know what more a country like Iran can do.... especially now, when other nations won't accept help from Iran in fighting these groups, and would instead sanction the nation, and label them as an 'axis of evil'.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: serb1389 on October 01, 2012, 06:39:46 PM
While I have tried to read all of the responses & questions, I have not quite been able to do so COMPLETELY. 

So if this was already covered in a different way, I apologize & please link me to your response. 

I would love to know how in the world we can have different "traditions" of exegesis to what is perhaps the most important chapter of the Quran & the only one that is NAMED after Muhammad.  See link to chapter below:

http://quran.com/47

How in the world could anyone "mistake" this one?  or exegete it as "oh he meant that spiritually".  Sorry..I just don't buy it.  Seems VERY clear to me.  Thoughts? 
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 01, 2012, 06:46:30 PM
Yeah, I really just wanted to know if there's a difference between the suicide bombers and actual martyrs. I think that many suicide bombers would say, perhaps not entirely without reason, that they are carrying out an extreme act for the defense of their community (to repel invaders or occupiers) This does not square with the Christian understanding of martyrdom (even our military saints like St. George or Abu Seifain are not considered martyrs for having taken up the sword in battles, but for having died at the hands of the authorities for the sake of their faith). So I don't understand the position taken by some Muslims that if someone dies while spilling another's blood, they're a martyr so long as they're doing it for the sake of their faith.

dzheremi, as I said.... the best example in islamic history, is the prophet's grandson Hussein.  I encourage you to read more about him.... in fact prominent celebrities, have spoken very positively about him...

people like Charles Dickens, Ghandi, ...etc. : http://smma59.wordpress.com/2008/02/03/quotations-about-imam-hussain-as-by-non-muslims/

Hussein and some members of his group were abused and killed for their faith and not pledging allegiance of loyalty to a violent monarchy.  True muslims do not believe in a heretical ruling structure.  They were fighting on behalf of the community, to prevent that ideology to take over.


Martyrs become martyrs when the family doesn't bother anyone, try to live in a peaceful way, and be true to their religion..... but they finding themselves in a difficult position, where someone is imposing a law or regulation that is against the religion and there is nowhere to escape to keep the family safe... so the only choice they have is to enter a conflict... and fight for religious freedom.

An example I can give, is like those farmers who fought Stalin's troops, when Stalin wanted to take their farms for the state.  Those poor farmers had no choice but to fight for their freedom, and those that died in this fight.... are considered martyrs.

This is the best way I can explain it.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: username! on October 01, 2012, 07:34:59 PM
How do you explain A'isha?  I have seen the arguments for the truth and the weaker ones.  But the Hadiths seem to affirm this story. 
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 01, 2012, 08:11:35 PM
While I have tried to read all of the responses & questions, I have not quite been able to do so COMPLETELY. 

So if this was already covered in a different way, I apologize & please link me to your response. 

I would love to know how in the world we can have different "traditions" of exegesis to what is perhaps the most important chapter of the Quran & the only one that is NAMED after Muhammad.  See link to chapter below:

http://quran.com/47

How in the world could anyone "mistake" this one?  or exegete it as "oh he meant that spiritually".  Sorry..I just don't buy it.  Seems VERY clear to me.  Thoughts? 

From my study, the first surah (Al-Fatiha) is among the most important.

Feel free to ask me about any specific parts of Surah 47, whatever you disagree with.

Also, when it comes to these surahs, it's important to study the context and setting they were revealed.  Some were revealed at times of war-- as I mentioned in one of my earlier posts:

The prophet made a peace treaty with a violent group, and that group broke that treaty and started attacking the early Muslim community.  These verses were revealed, to educate the early Muslims that it's permissible to defend yourself and fight against those who are trying to kill you-- but also it said to have mercy on those who have a change of heart.

Also I encourage you watch this movie about the prophet.... it sheds light on what kind of struggle he was going through in the early years of Islam:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlQ4Wxw5ky4
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 01, 2012, 08:21:44 PM
How do you explain A'isha?  I have seen the arguments for the truth and the weaker ones.  But the Hadiths seem to affirm this story. 

Shia's don't believe majority of text regarding her in Sunni hadiths.

In fact, shias' view her in a negative light.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Ebor on October 01, 2012, 08:25:39 PM
in fact prominent celebrities, have spoken very positively about him...

people like Charles Dickens, Ghandi, ...etc. : http://smma59.wordpress.com/2008/02/03/quotations-about-imam-hussain-as-by-non-muslims/


I am not a Dickens scholar, but I have read some of his works. That purported "quote" from him along with the others on the linked site are found in many sites supporting Islam.  But there is no citation for it or for some of the others.  I could be wrong but I can't think of how this "quote" would fit into any of his novels or shorter works.  So it is possible that it is a mis-attribution or someone did not understand who really did write it or it could be completely made up and Dickens' name applied to it.

The campaign against and slaughter of Hussain and his followers was violent and tragic.  It is an historic fact with a  date and a place.  Why would it need support from undocumented attributed quotes.

I am not trying to be difficult but claims need to be supported.

Ebor
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: serb1389 on October 01, 2012, 08:29:04 PM
While I have tried to read all of the responses & questions, I have not quite been able to do so COMPLETELY. 

So if this was already covered in a different way, I apologize & please link me to your response. 

I would love to know how in the world we can have different "traditions" of exegesis to what is perhaps the most important chapter of the Quran & the only one that is NAMED after Muhammad.  See link to chapter below:

http://quran.com/47

How in the world could anyone "mistake" this one?  or exegete it as "oh he meant that spiritually".  Sorry..I just don't buy it.  Seems VERY clear to me.  Thoughts? 

From my study, the first surah (Al-Fatiha) is among the most important.

Feel free to ask me about any specific parts of Surah 47, whatever you disagree with.

Also, when it comes to these surahs, it's important to study the context and setting they were revealed.  Some were revealed at times of war-- as I mentioned in one of my earlier posts:

The prophet made a peace treaty with a violent group, and that group broke that treaty and started attacking the early Muslim community.  These verses were revealed, to educate the early Muslims that it's permissible to defend yourself and fight against those who are trying to kill you-- but also it said to have mercy on those who have a change of heart.

Also I encourage you watch this movie about the prophet.... it sheds light on what kind of struggle he was going through in the early years of Islam:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlQ4Wxw5ky4

Yes, you mentioned this movie before & I watched, it.  to be honest, it was not very helpful to me, because it did not help me understand the particular history behind this Surah.  If you have any good sources that would help me uncover the history at the time of the writing of this particular Surah, I would be very grateful & would love to read them.

I do understand that historical context is important and that Muhamad waged many wars & battles between different peoples.  

However:  1.  I was under the impression that this particular surah was written during a time of peace (could be wrong about that).

2.  for me one of the hardest verses to deal with is:  (source 2 posts below)

Quote
So when you meet those who disbelieve [in battle], strike [their] necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them, then secure their bonds, and either [confer] favor afterwards or ransom [them] until the war lays down its burdens. That [is the command]. And if Allah had willed, He could have taken vengeance upon them [Himself], but [He ordered armed struggle] to test some of you by means of others. And those who are killed in the cause of Allah - never will He waste their deeds.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: username! on October 01, 2012, 08:30:45 PM
How do you explain A'isha?  I have seen the arguments for the truth and the weaker ones.  But the Hadiths seem to affirm this story. 

Shia's don't believe majority of text regarding her in Sunni hadiths.

In fact, shias' view her in a negative light.


Thanks!
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 01, 2012, 08:42:59 PM
I also have questions regarding Islamic women and rape.  I understand that, in order for the woman to prove rape, the rapist must confess to the crime, or the rape must be witnessed by four males.  Please explain.  Thank you.

Rape, as you know is completely against the religion.  It's a crime.

Today there is forensic technology to prove cases of rape.

But there are regions, where the community is majority Muslims, and they don't have the funding to use such technologies. 

What will happen, is that they'll go through a court trial.... both the accused and victim will have to give their side of the story.  All the evidence is considered-- any witness is welcomed and to the benefit of the women.  If she doesn't have 1 witness (male or female... doesn't matter), then the accused will be asked several times if he did the act or not, and the court will make a decision to see who's lying.

Typically, in a very religious community, there are many people who have strong spiritual discernment (baseerat vision).  So figuring out who's lying is very easy for such a community.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: HabteSelassie on October 01, 2012, 08:50:18 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Why does Islam prohibit its followers to consume alcohol?

Apart from harming your body....

you become more susceptible to giving off negative energies such as lust, envy, anger, ....etc.  The jinns (demons) feed off of these negative energies...  and they'll enter you life, and will later harm you.

I like this, it agrees with a Mayan-MesoAmerican philosophy called "spiritual metabolism" which I generally translated into hood-speak as "You get what you give."  To these folks, our purpose in the Divine economy is to translate physical energy into spiritual energy, thoughts and feelings.  We eat apples, and we give thanks to God, and so the positive feeds off our feelings.  The spirits then cultivate us like a garden, if we have a diet on negativity, the negative forces cultivate us towards increasingly negative consumption patterns until we destroy ourselves and the world in the process!  When we seek good feelings, positive energies, and beneficial things, we attract angels, saints, and yes God to come into our lives.  When we prefer to dine and feast on negative emotions, thoughts, and feelings, we cultivate negative forces like devils and demons.  So we should learn to focus on finding Grace and not avarice :)

As a dreadlock, I didn't consume alcohol for eight years following the Nazirite vow, and I can say, it is a very good lifestyle not to drink.  My mom never had drink in her life, my paternal grandfather neither, and they are some of the most joyful people I know all the same.  Me, sometimes lately I need a drink ;)

Thanks for taking on this task by the way, we could really use some different perspective and dialogue about these matters.

Let me ask a question related to this idea, do Muslims then find Holy Communion offensive or sacrilegious even?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Jetavan on October 01, 2012, 09:04:43 PM
Are you Sufi?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Eastern Mind on October 01, 2012, 10:01:44 PM
Thanks so much for making this thread! I've learned a lot about Islam that I never knew before.

I've heard that some sects of Islam, like Druze, see Krishna, the Hindu God, as a prophet of God. Is this universal, or just confined to Druze?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 01, 2012, 10:42:29 PM
Could you go into more detail about the "chaotic times of the antichrist"? Are there any references/sources that could help me understand all of this better?  I would like to understand better about why their is currently so much violence in this religion.

It's called 'fitna of dajjal',

here's a short pdf of the topic I just found...

http://hubeali.com/articles/The-Fitna-of-Dajjal.pdf


Note that most of these prophecies are metaphorical... when it's talking about the donkey, it's refering to airplane, the one-eye is referring to the symbol of Annuit cœptis that dajjal will be pledging to.

Do you know what the date and source of this document is please?  The historical setting of a document is important in undertanding things, as you yourself have written.

Also, saying that a donkey is really an airplane is an interpretation from a modern perspective, since such craft have only been around for a bit over a century.  How do you *know* that those interpretations are correct?

These prophecies are directly from the prophet... from 700  AD.  The written text in hadiths were made a couple years after his death.  If you allow me, I'll try to find the hadiths for those prophesies.

Note that in general, a lot of the prophesies the prophet was sharing, were typically analogous...because the tech wasn't available at the time.  For example, there was a hadith that said that in the future, there will be Muslims that "on there heads will be instruments of music and singing"--- so people now recognize it and say this is referring to the headphone.

Now at the time, there was no boeing 747 obv, so the only way the prophet can share his vision is through analogies.  So a flying donkey traveling long distances, is what he said, and it's only in recent times that people finally realize what he was talking about it.

What really convinces people that its the airplane, is that it's invented in US, and one of the most popular symbol Americans use, is the Annuit cœptis -- which has the one-eye symbol-- which is similar to the one-eyed characteristic of dajjal, that prophet was warning about.


Now for my opinion on these visions:

I think they were the result of prayers, intense spiritual meditation in quite caves, constant fasting....etc.   When you are thinking deeply under such conditions, you'll start getting incredible dreams/hallucination--- it's from these dreams that the prophet got glimpses of future and/or other worlds.

It's something that Muslims are encouraged to strive for.  To live simply, constantly thinking deeply, and focus as much as possible on meditation/prayer so one can have these incredible dreams and insights.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 02, 2012, 01:24:54 AM
Is there an official position in Islam on evolution?  I know I used to visit a Muslim webpage which had a lot of information refuting evolution.  How does Islam reconcile its position on the matter?  Thanks!

"Officially", muslims say Islam doesn't specifically support nor deny evolution.


But IMO, I think Islam does support some kind of evolution, but it's not in the way that western scientists think--- it's controlled evolution by God-- NOT random evolution:

First here are the hints from the Quran:

- all living things were created from water -- http://quran.com/21/30 , http://quran.com/24/45

- humans created from water -- http://quran.com/25/54

- surah 59 verse 24... says "He is Allah, the Creator, the Evolver, the Bestower of Forms (or Colours). "


So a lot of evolutionists talk about all living creatures on earth evolving from a single cell in water..... which as you can see above, the quran gives hint to it.


Now in terms of humans....  I think Adam's physical body evolved at the micro level from a cell residing in water/clay (not at the macro level- from a completely different specie--like an adult ape that some evolutionists propose)....
so a cell evolved at the micro level..... it grew and grew, through chemical interactions with carbon (clay/mud), and so in the end a body of dry clay was formed, that's shaped into a human body.

Then God 'blew' into him the spirit/soul, to make Adam a complete human.  The whole process took quite a while  -- wasn't instant.

This opinion of mine, is based on various hadiths and also the quran ( http://quran.com/38/72 )


I should also note one thing.....

IMO, the debates between evolutionists and creationists is really a waste of time--- it's the devil that's making a big deal out of it, and unfortunately it discourages a lot of people (athiest) to study any religion in further details.

Now if atheist believe that we all came from ONE cell, and they say they believe in only science-- so they accept that our universe came from ONE big bang..... then why can't they accept we all came from ONE entity (God)?

Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Nikolaostheservant on October 02, 2012, 12:19:20 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19776747



almost daily!-------------WHY?


Sooo very hard to find compassion in my heart any more.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: lord doog on October 02, 2012, 12:47:43 PM
1. Do Muslims believe in abrogation of the Qur'an?
2. Why is chess forbidden in Islam? (http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=028&translator=2&start=0&number=5612#5612)
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: jmbejdl on October 03, 2012, 03:23:15 AM
How do you deal with the fact that the author of the Koran evidently did not understand what the Trinity is? To my mind this has always been the most obvious flaw in the belief that this text was effectively the dictated word of God. I read the Koran, in translation of course, as a teenager and even though I wasn't particularly religious, and certainly not Orthodox, at the time it practically jumped off the page at me. Even if the Trinity was false I would expect that God would understand what it is and describe it correctly. The fact that the Koran errs so egregiously in describing the Trinity as God, Jesus and Mary would seem to me to suggest that its author was human.

James
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: xariskai on October 03, 2012, 04:02:39 AM
Is it really credible to suggest drinking urine for health?
http://islamqa.info/en/ref/83423

Do you consider drinking Muhammad's urine was "a great blessing?"
http://today.almasryalyoum.com/article2.aspx?ArticleID=62653

Would you drink someone's urine, or camel's urine?





Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Agia Marina on October 03, 2012, 05:38:15 AM
I also have questions regarding Islamic women and rape.  I understand that, in order for the woman to prove rape, the rapist must confess to the crime, or the rape must be witnessed by four males.  Please explain.  Thank you.

Rape, as you know is completely against the religion.  It's a crime.

Today there is forensic technology to prove cases of rape.

But there are regions, where the community is majority Muslims, and they don't have the funding to use such technologies.
But, they have medical evidence such as bruising and tearing of tissues.  Do they consider that forensic evidence?

Quote
What will happen, is that they'll go through a court trial.... both the accused and victim will have to give their side of the story.  All the evidence is considered-- any witness is welcomed and to the benefit of the women.  If she doesn't have 1 witness (male or female... doesn't matter), then the accused will be asked several times if he did the act or not, and the court will make a decision to see who's lying.
What happens to the victim if she does not prove her case?

Quote
Typically, in a very religious community, there are many people who have strong spiritual discernment (baseerat vision).  So figuring out who's lying is very easy for such a community.

Please explain "baseerat vision".  Who has this spiritual discernment?

Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Kerdy on October 03, 2012, 07:01:28 AM
Fibonacci,

While there will always be obvious tension to some degree between any two religious faiths and those two faiths will never reconcile all differences, I wanted to say I appreciate you coming here and sharing with us.  I know it may not be easy.  I wish more followers of Islam would voice themselves in the manner you have here.  I think it would help us, but more importantly it would help other Muslims.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Kerdy on October 03, 2012, 07:04:37 AM
Before our questions get too far out in left field, lets try to remember Constantinople and the Orthodox Christians there survived under Islam more peacefully than expected, especially considering the circumstances at the time.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: recent convert on October 03, 2012, 08:12:58 AM
From your Koran:

    Blasphemies

[9:30] The Jews said, "Ezra is the son of GOD," while the Christians said, "Jesus is the son of GOD!" These are blasphemies uttered by their mouths. They thus match the blasphemies of those who have disbelieved in the past. GOD condemns them. They have surely deviated.

    Upholding the Teachings of Religious Leaders, Instead of God's Teachings



Where in the world did the jews say Ezra is the son God? Is this how you reject the law of Moses as being allegedly corrupted? This is not true.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Alpo on October 03, 2012, 08:26:35 AM
Where in the world did the jews say Ezra is the son God? Is this how you reject the law of Moses as being allegedly corrupted? This is not true.

Koran could be refering to some eccentric form of Judaism. Or Christianity for that matter when it's talking about Trinity. Who knows what might have been out there during that time considering that even today World is filled with crazy religions.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: jmbejdl on October 03, 2012, 08:39:59 AM
Where in the world did the jews say Ezra is the son God? Is this how you reject the law of Moses as being allegedly corrupted? This is not true.

Koran could be refering to some eccentric form of Judaism. Or Christianity for that matter when it's talking about Trinity. Who knows what might have been out there during that time considering that even today World is filled with crazy religions.

Except that if it does refer to some strange way out sect then using the tiny minority and heretical practice as a pretext to criticise a faith as a whole doesn't really stack up. It would be like trying to discredit all orthodox (deliberate lower case o) Christians because of the Mormon belief in a heavenly mother. That would certainly change the issue, but not in a good way. Instead of assuming ignorance on the part of the author I'd end up having to assume willful misrepresentation.

James
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Theophilos78 on October 03, 2012, 09:29:50 AM

Koran could be refering to some eccentric form of Judaism. Or Christianity for that matter when it's talking about Trinity. Who knows what might have been out there during that time considering that even today World is filled with crazy religions.

Not possible because the verse talks about the Jews in general rather than about some unknown group of the Jews. More, it tries to set up a parallelism between Jews and Christians.  Believing Jesus to be the Son of God was not a doctrine endorsed by some "eccentric form" of Christianity.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: xariskai on October 03, 2012, 10:21:06 AM
Two quick questions about the possibility of Muslim/non-Muslim friendship.

1. Can faithful Muslims genuinely befriend Christians?

Qur'an 5.51: "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."
(please also compare many similar verses from Qur'an and Hadith here: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/009-friends-with-christians-jews.htm )

2. This second question I hate to even ask as it makes me sad. If a Muslim even seemed to be a genuine friend to a non-Muslim, or perhaps even if they considered themselves friends to a non-Muslim despite the apparent wording of the passages above, considering the following do you think it would be fully rational for a non-Muslim to regard a Muslim as trustworthy as a friend?

"If you can't cut your enemy's hand, kiss it" -Al-Mansowry, Al-taib Wal kabith/The Pure and the Unpure, p. 199.

"Know this, that lying is not sin by itself, but if it brings harm to you it could be ugly. However you can lie if that will keep you from evil or if it will result in prosperity" -Gazoli Saibin, Ehia Al-owlom Al-Den/A Revival of the Religious Books (Cairo: Maktabet al-Turas, 1971), pp. 3, 137.

Of course such does not prevent a Christian from being a friend to a Muslim even if their friendship is reciprocated by duplicity or even persecution/hatred/subjugation etc. as such is our duty before God:

Matthew 5:43-48:  “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

1 Jn 4:7-8: "Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love."

Matthew 7:12: "So in everything do unto others as you would have them do unto you, for this sums up the law and the prophets."

3. Finally, since the teaching of the above three verses from the Bible seems to contradict what the Qur'an teaches about how believers should treat other people whether friend or enemy at the most basic level, would you say that these teachings are corruptions of the original teaching of Christ? Would you say this even though there is not a single early manuscript of the New Testament, or early lectionary, or teaching from the earliest fathers, or early version of the New Testament (translations of the New Testament into other languages) that has the slightest hint of any contrary teaching by Jesus Christ?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: JoeS2 on October 03, 2012, 10:39:23 AM
My question:  Why is Islam so hell-bent on making life difficult for Christians in some countries which have a majority of Muslims?  (Lets also lay aside the complaint of the conversion of Muslims to Christianity because there is sufficient evidence to the contrary as well.)
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on October 03, 2012, 10:52:06 AM
Before our questions get too far out in left field, lets try to remember Constantinople and the Orthodox Christians there survived under Islam more peacefully than expected, especially considering the circumstances at the time.

Having grown up among Turks, the reason may be because (a) Ottomans were much more practical than the Arabs and (b) Turks are not quite Hyperdox of the Islamic world. Don't take me wrong, they were bad enough to the Christian populations,particularly after the 16th Century.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on October 03, 2012, 10:58:39 AM
Two quick questions about the possibility of Muslim/non-Muslim friendship.

1. Can faithful Muslims genuinely befriend Christians?

Qur'an 5.51: "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."
(please also compare many similar verses from Qur'an and Hadith here: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/009-friends-with-christians-jews.htm )

2. This second question I hate to even ask as it makes me sad. If a Muslim even seemed to be a genuine friend to a non-Muslim, or perhaps even if they considered themselves friends to a non-Muslim despite the apparent wording of the passages above, considering the following do you think it would be fully rational for a non-Muslim to regard a Muslim as trustworthy as a friend?

"If you can't cut your enemy's hand, kiss it" -Al-Mansowry, Al-taib Wal kabith/The Pure and the Unpure, p. 199.

"Know this, that lying is not sin by itself, but if it brings harm to you it could be ugly. However you can lie if that will keep you from evil or if it will result in prosperity" -Gazoli Saibin, Ehia Al-owlom Al-Den/A Revival of the Religious Books (Cairo: Maktabet al-Turas, 1971), pp. 3, 137.

Of course such does not prevent a Christian from being a friend to a Muslim even if their friendship is reciprocated by duplicity or even persecution/hatred/subjugation etc. as such is our duty before God:

Matthew 5:43-48:  “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

1 Jn 4:7-8: "Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love."

Matthew 7:12: "So in everything do unto others as you would have them do unto you, for this sums up the law and the prophets."

3. Finally, since the teaching of the above three verses from the Bible seems to contradict what the Qur'an teaches about how believers should treat other people whether friend or enemy at the most basic level, would you say that these teachings are corruptions of the original teaching of Christ? Would you say this even though there is not a single early manuscript of the New Testament, or early lectionary, or teaching from the earliest fathers, or early version of the New Testament (translations of the New Testament into other languages) that has the slightest hint of any contrary teaching by Jesus Christ?

I do not think that the Biblical teachings are corruptions of the original teachings of Christ. That said, an argument can certainly be made (and it has been made in the non-PC past) that the Quran contains many  corruptions of the Old and New Testament.

Regarding being friends with a Muslim, I think we can certainly be friendly and co-exist peacefully outside a majority-Muslim country. However, it would be dangerous to be "buddies" for you will never know when the personal jihad kicks in.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: xariskai on October 03, 2012, 12:39:58 PM
^Thanks for your answer CK, but I am actually much more interested in our informative Muslim friend's thoughts from the Muslim side and Muslim p.o.v. (vs. through Christian or non-Muslim lens) on all of these points.

But sure, the notion that such central teachings of Jesus as specifically mentioned are even credibly regarded as "corruptions" would require something on the order of complete intellectual suicide for most thoughtful and reasonably well-educated observers. After all, they run through multiple independent trajectories in pretty much every NT document and extant teaching of the so-called apostolic fathers (i.e. fathers who were immediate disciples of an apostle, or a disciple of such a disciple) not to mention early lectionaries, early versions, the early "rule of faith," early mss., etc. without a single shred of ancient evidence to the contrary.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Αριστοκλής on October 03, 2012, 12:50:34 PM
Before our questions get too far out in left field, lets try to remember Constantinople and the Orthodox Christians there survived under Islam more peacefully than expected, especially considering the circumstances at the time.

That's debatable.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: JoeS2 on October 03, 2012, 01:05:02 PM
Before our questions get too far out in left field, lets try to remember Constantinople and the Orthodox Christians there survived under Islam more peacefully than expected, especially considering the circumstances at the time.

That's debatable.
It all depends on how you define "PEACEFUL". 
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Αριστοκλής on October 03, 2012, 01:37:43 PM
Before our questions get too far out in left field, lets try to remember Constantinople and the Orthodox Christians there survived under Islam more peacefully than expected, especially considering the circumstances at the time.

That's debatable.
It all depends on how you define "PEACEFUL". 

Dhimmitude. My family lived it.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Agia Marina on October 03, 2012, 01:38:47 PM
Before our questions get too far out in left field, lets try to remember Constantinople and the Orthodox Christians there survived under Islam more peacefully than expected, especially considering the circumstances at the time.

That's debatable.
It all depends on how you define "PEACEFUL". 
I suppose paying jizya is "peaceful".
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Iconodule on October 03, 2012, 01:41:50 PM
Before our questions get too far out in left field, lets try to remember Constantinople and the Orthodox Christians there survived under Islam more peacefully than expected, especially considering the circumstances at the time.

That's debatable.
It all depends on how you define "PEACEFUL". 

(http://www.greek-costumes.com/history/1821/grigorios5th.jpg)
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Cyrillic on October 03, 2012, 01:42:41 PM
Were the Turks shia? (retorical question)
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Αριστοκλής on October 03, 2012, 01:56:28 PM
Were the Turks shia? (retorical question)
No.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Cyrillic on October 03, 2012, 02:05:19 PM
Were the Turks shia? (retorical question)
No.

No reason to blame OP, then.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: recent convert on October 03, 2012, 02:06:04 PM
My paternal grandparents & great grandpaernts were Syrian Orthodox. It always seemed to me that Syrian Christians & Moslems had better relationships since whatever tragedies that Syrian Christians endured were from the Ottomans & hardly ever between Syrians. Present day Syrians have told me that until recently, most Syrians had generally good relations whether their faith might have been. Does this seem to be a fair observation?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: orthonorm on October 03, 2012, 02:08:04 PM
Can you explain every act committed by a "Muslim" throughout history which doesn't make sense from a 21st Century Western Secular Humanist way of thinking?

Oh, please don't ask the same of the history of acts committed by Christians and those whom they venerate.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: HabteSelassie on October 03, 2012, 02:13:50 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christs!

Folks, can we kindly be a bit more mature? This thread is quickly devolving into a pity party and a stone throwing contest.  Have Muslims killed Christians? Yes, duh.  Have we killed Muslims? Yes, duh.  Here is the real clincher, have Christians fought against and killed Christians? Yes, duh :(


How about we save those obvious discussions for more pertinent threads, our Muslim brother has been considerate enough to have open and honest discussions here, can't we keep that focus instead of falling into the blame game so much and talking about persecutions? There are a plethora of threads available on this forum to have those discussions, but if we keep that going here inevitably it will begin to get focused towards even the Muslim poster here.

Many times I hear Christians say, "Why don't Muslims speak out against violence or persecution of Christians?"  They do.  I will flip it, and ask, "How come we Christians can't speak out to other Christians about being myopic in discussions about Islam?"

We know there is a history of violence, persecution, and martyrdom, and we shouldn't disregard these tragedies, but as in all matters, we must always consider the settings, time, and place.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Hiwot on October 03, 2012, 02:50:35 PM
Yeah, I really just wanted to know if there's a difference between the suicide bombers and actual martyrs. I think that many suicide bombers would say, perhaps not entirely without reason, that they are carrying out an extreme act for the defense of their community (to repel invaders or occupiers) This does not square with the Christian understanding of martyrdom (even our military saints like St. George or Abu Seifain are not considered martyrs for having taken up the sword in battles, but for having died at the hands of the authorities for the sake of their faith). So I don't understand the position taken by some Muslims that if someone dies while spilling another's blood, they're a martyr so long as they're doing it for the sake of their faith.

dzheremi, as I said.... the best example in islamic history, is the prophet's grandson Hussein.  I encourage you to read more about him.... in fact prominent celebrities, have spoken very positively about him...

people like Charles Dickens, Ghandi, ...etc. : http://smma59.wordpress.com/2008/02/03/quotations-about-imam-hussain-as-by-non-muslims/

Hussein and some members of his group were abused and killed for their faith and not pledging allegiance of loyalty to a violent monarchy.  True muslims do not believe in a heretical ruling structure.  They were fighting on behalf of the community, to prevent that ideology to take over.


Martyrs become martyrs when the family doesn't bother anyone, try to live in a peaceful way, and be true to their religion..... but they finding themselves in a difficult position, where someone is imposing a law or regulation that is against the religion and there is nowhere to escape to keep the family safe... so the only choice they have is to enter a conflict... and fight for religious freedom.

An example I can give, is like those farmers who fought Stalin's troops, when Stalin wanted to take their farms for the state.  Those poor farmers had no choice but to fight for their freedom, and those that died in this fight.... are considered martyrs.

This is the best way I can explain it.

reader pay attention.

 those that fight against heretical ruling structure, are they fighting for religious freedom? for instance democracy as a rule of the people , can it be interprated as heresy thereby those who fight it are fighting for religious freedom which can only be realised for them when the supreme law of the land becomes Allah's law?

I agree with you that true muslims do not believe in a heretical ruling structure.and that they will fight on the behalf of the community to prevent the ideology deemed heretical from taking over. they are justified nay obligated to do so.

btw, the sufi flavor makes your explanations much more palatable , I am sure you know. :)
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Αριστοκλής on October 03, 2012, 02:54:43 PM
Were the Turks shia? (retorical question)
No.

No reason to blame OP, then.
I'm not blaming him personally but I do think he minimizes Wahabbism's impact and seeks to put Shia in a better light. NO problem with that but such comparisons remind me too much of RCC/OC arguing. To any outsider, we're both wrong.
Besides, my response was to the Constantinople post (#124) anyway.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Jetavan on October 03, 2012, 02:55:25 PM
Quote
Shiite Muslims quietly establish a foothold in U.S. (http://www.religionnews.com/faith/beliefs/shiite-muslims-quietly-establish-a-foothold-in-u.s)
....
That is changing, however, as American Shiites are increasingly establishing their own mosques. According to "The American Mosque 2011," a survey sponsored by several Muslim American organizations, 7 percent of roughly 2,100 mosques in America are Shiite, and most have been built in the last 20 years.  

One reason: Shiites have become numerous and financially strong enough to manage the expensive process of buying or building their own mosques. Another factor: the growth in Shiite populations as immigrants flee persecution in Iraq, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, and Pakistan, where Taliban gunmen recently executed at least 22 Shiite bus passengers.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: HabteSelassie on October 03, 2012, 02:59:38 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


I agree with you that true muslims do not believe in a heretical ruling structure.and that they will fight on the behalf of the community to prevent the ideology deemed heretical from taking over. they are justified nay obligated to do so.

btw, the sufi flavor makes your explanations much more palatable , I am sure you know. :)

Amen Amen! Excellent point my kind sister.

  This is evidenced by the reality that most Somalis utterly reject Al Shabab's push towards Sharia, because in all actuality that degree of Islam is quite foreign to the typical Somali's experience, just like monastic Orthodox is quite foreign to your typical American or European :)

It is similar with Boko Haram in Nigeria, most Nigerians do NOT want Sharia law, this is why groups like Al Shabab and Boko Haram not only attack Christians and secular government institutions, but common people on the street who equally resist radicalism.

Violence has hijacked the Muslim narrative today.  Jihad in Islam up until the 20th century politicization of Islam after the decline of the Ottoman Empire and ascendancy of Euro-American hegemony was a spiritual concept of struggling through fasting and prayer.  When the colonial tide was reversed, and many Muslims found themselves colonized rather then the colonizers (as they had been the four hundred years previously), the concept of Jihad and the mujihadeen quite literally radically changed.  Prayer became violence.  Me personally, I came from a very radicalized background, and it was Orthodox Christianity that taught me directly the value of prayer beads over pistols to solve conflict, let us pray that many Muslims continue to learn the same.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Hiwot on October 03, 2012, 04:48:33 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


I agree with you that true muslims do not believe in a heretical ruling structure.and that they will fight on the behalf of the community to prevent the ideology deemed heretical from taking over. they are justified nay obligated to do so.

btw, the sufi flavor makes your explanations much more palatable , I am sure you know. :)

Amen Amen! Excellent point my kind sister.

  This is evidenced by the reality that most Somalis utterly reject Al Shabab's push towards Sharia, because in all actuality that degree of Islam is quite foreign to the typical Somali's experience, just like monastic Orthodox is quite foreign to your typical American or European :)

It is similar with Boko Haram in Nigeria, most Nigerians do NOT want Sharia law, this is why groups like Al Shabab and Boko Haram not only attack Christians and secular government institutions, but common people on the street who equally resist radicalism.

Violence has hijacked the Muslim narrative today.  Jihad in Islam up until the 20th century politicization of Islam after the decline of the Ottoman Empire and ascendancy of Euro-American hegemony was a spiritual concept of struggling through fasting and prayer.  When the colonial tide was reversed, and many Muslims found themselves colonized rather then the colonizers (as they had been the four hundred years previously), the concept of Jihad and the mujihadeen quite literally radically changed.  Prayer became violence.  Me personally, I came from a very radicalized background, and it was Orthodox Christianity that taught me directly the value of prayer beads over pistols to solve conflict, let us pray that many Muslims continue to learn the same.

stay blessed,
habte selassie



a major case of missing the point lol I would advise to read again what I wrote lol if I thought it was genuine that is. the missing half of my qoute makes me think otherwise so... lol
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 03, 2012, 05:06:03 PM
I'm sorry, but when making claims about history the times and places are not "minor" facts. They matter.  Good verifiable information can support a person's ideas while errors will not. Dates and places are some of the important facts that are needed to establish what truely happened when and where.   They are part of the context that is necessary to understand the larger picture. 
Meaning no offense to you, but having a "macro perspective" of history sounds vague. If I were to make some claim about history of an event I would have to give some checkable information for other people to use to find out (if they wanted) that such a situation was True.  Just because there was some idea that I liked doesn't mean that it is the truth.


I'm sorry Ebor, but what I meant, was that when it comes to history, I pay more attention to the lessonsthat can be learned and less about specific dates, places, ...etc.  I believe our thinking process is different, and we place emphasis on different things.  I suggest you read about left-brain vs right-brain thinking.... I know that I'm more of a right-brain thinker, so that's why I said "macro perspective".

Quote
I apologize for any unintended offense, but I know more of the subject than you seem to think that I do.  And I disagree with your idea as to what brought the Golden Age to an end.  In Spain/Al-Andaluz for example there was suppression of the thought and philosophy of other Muslims under the Almohad rulers.  I suppose that one might say that that was a change in the "political system" but it wasn't along the lines that you described above.  Here is the wiki link on the Almohad reforms though I can find other material on this if desired.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almohad_reforms
Wikipedia can be a good starting place but deeper understanding comes from the sources and cited materials.

Now I'm not denying it wasn't all peaceful in the early years. Muslims were being harmed by hypocritical Muslims all the time... remember the story of Karbala where Hussein (the prophet's grandson) and his community was struggling to find peace because they didn't go along with evil monarchs who wanted to use the religion as a political force.  So just like there were problems in Spain, there were problems in the mideast.

But overall it was a peaceful time (golden age) and science/tech was advancing fast in that region.  The reason why, is because the religion educated the general public what human rights are.  To free slaves, to not kill female children, to be peaceful with others, to be generous, to not deceive one another in the marketplace...etc.  Once freedom and human rights were recognized, then the region started to prosper.   The prosperity ended when evil political changes happened, which restricted freedom in some way... that's when economic changes happened.  This is what the devil does.... as the quran says 'he threatens you with poverty'.  The devil took over and everything good faded... people let it happen when they didn't take the religion seriously.

Quote
Not properly credited?  The constellations book that I had as a child stated (and it certainly is common knowledge in astronomy) that many star names are from Arabic.  Algebra comes from then and mathematicians haven't tried to cover up the roots.  However, Alchemy is not a purely Arabic word as it comes from the Greek "chemia" with an "al" added and the word then goes through Latin to Old French and then to English.  http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/alchemy
Working with materials and elements was not a new development from Persia.

May I ask if you recall materials you read that did not give the historical information or, since you say "a long time ago" how long ago that was and where? 

Thank you for the list of people.  I know of them and mentioned Avicenna, for example, in my earlier post.  I have read various works on the period and culture including in the last year the book I mentioned No god But God by Reza Aslan who is originally from Iran. The book's sub-title is The Origins, Evolution and Future of Islam and it can be found in hardback, paperback and in libraries.

I'm sure you know more about this topic than I do.   But when I studied a subject like optics, I rarely find Al Hazen's name in the text..... you see only Newton (who did add a lot of original ideas...someone I admire), but the book should at least have a few sentences on Al Hazen.

Similar thing with Algebra/Trigonometry texts, you always see bios of European scientists like Euler, Gauss, Euclid, ...etc.... but no mention of the Muslim scholars.

Same thing with Robotic textbooks.... no mention of al-Jazari, who is really the father of robotics.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: dzheremi on October 03, 2012, 05:12:43 PM
Should I not be noticing that even in Habte's narrative, jihad turned violent once Muslim hegemony was finally broken apart by force? (Not that it wasn't reconstituted in some perhaps even worse ways, but alas...)

This speaks, I think, to the first part of Hiwot's post that somehow got lost in Habte's quoting...  ;)

Not to rain on anyone's love parade or nothing, but we should know that the fatuhat al-Islamiya, as they call them, were offensive wars for the "opening" (that's what that word means) of the world to Islam. Were it not for violent conquest and subsequent hegemonic domination that continues to this very day in previously-Zoroastrian, Jewish, and Christian Persia, there would not have been any empire to lose, and hence we might conjecture that jihad could not have turned violent in response to anyone else's having taken away Islam's right place in the world, as an ever-expanding, world-conquering empire. These wars began with Muhammad himself, irrespective of the challenges he faced in Arabia proper.

So I'm afraid I do not buy this partial definition of jihad. Would that were mostly peaceful, as it can be. I do not doubt the specific examples brought by Habte (all the Somalis I have met, for instance, have been very pragmatic and seemingly quite inwardly-focused), only that jihad as a thing has been "hijacked" in some way by those practicing violence. The Islamic conquests were violent. Read some history, folks. Primary source documents on all sides record that violence; the only difference is whether they see it as good or bad.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 03, 2012, 05:39:39 PM
Why is it written in the Qur'an that Jesus' mother Mary was the daughter of Amram (Surah 3:35, Surah 66:12) and sister of Aaron (Surah 19:28)? Isn't it obvious that the author of the Qur'an accidentally assimilated the Miriam of the Old Testament (Daughter of Amram in 1 Chronicles 6:3; Sister of Aaron in Exodus 15:20) to Jesus' mother Miriam?

This is a very interesting point, and I'm going to do some more studying on it....

but remember, these surahs are poetic, and typically, these poems reveal many different stories, all of which are valid
you just have to read them from different perspectives... to get the point

Thanks for taking time and answering. :)

now if you're reading these verses, thinking about Mary the mother of Jesus, Amram is mentioned because she's from that linage..... most likely her father's last name was Amram

Mary actually descended from the tribe of Judah though. Thus, she was not a Levite and Amram was not her ancestor. More to the point, Surah 3:35 claims that Amram was Mary's immediate father (It's said that Amram's wife gave birth to Mary).

in the second case, Surah 19:28, it's clearly a play-on-word, if you read it carefully...... a man from her community was criticizing her for having Jesus, and telling her how surprised he was, that someone who comes from a very religious family, who's name is the same as Mariam, the sister of Aaron, why she would have such "a baby out of wedlock".

Again, Mary was not a Levite. She did not descend from a priestly family. The problem with this argument is that it disregards that Moses and Aaron's actual sister is mentioned in the Qur'an, but never named. Thus, the Qur'an talks of no other Miriam for a comparison. According to the author of the Qur'an, there was one Miriam in history and this Miriam, who was the daughter of Amram and sister of Aaron, was Jesus' mother. Finally, this kind of a usage is alien to Semitic culture. Nowhere were females called sisters of Aaron for a comparison. The actual term used is daughter of Aaron rather than sister of Aaron.

Does it really seem coincidental to you that Jesus' mother Miriam is designated in the Qur'an as BOTH the sister of Aaron and Amram's daughter? It looks like Miriam's father was accidentally named Amram in Surah 3:35 since in the earliest chapter (Surah 19) Mary was accidentally identified as the sister of Aaron. In other words, the confusion and blunder continued and developed.

Theophilos78, unfortunately, I'll need to study this topic in more details.  So it'll take some time to give you a specific answer.

But as I said in my previous post, quranic surahs are poetic, and so they tend to contain verses that refer to several different stories..... it's just matter of seeing the verse from a certain angle.

On one level the verse may be literal, talking about Mary the mother of Jesus, another level it may be figurative and it's talking about Mariam-- something symbolic that happened in her life.  

But regardless the case, I'm not sure how these names affect the whole story?  Is there a problem if Mary&Jesus were decedents of both-- through a cousin marriage at some point?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 03, 2012, 05:52:29 PM
Here is an article from the BBC in 06 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4581684.stm
 on a manuscript that is said to be the Quran of Uthman/Othman and that is located in Tashkent. It is so fragile that it is kept in a special case and people are not able to just read it.  The report also says that due to the deterioration over the centuries of the deer skin on which it was written only about 1/3 of it, about 250 pages, still exists.  There is a reference to another partial copy (five were said to have been made at the time, not just one) that is in the Topkapi Palace in Istanbul.

This counters the claim that the "original" Quran is preserved in totality.

I think the most important thing that we should consider, is that there is uniformity in the text that all sects of Islam use.  The Shias, Sunnis, ...etc. both use the same Quran, and they all place an emphasis on the original Arabic version.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Theophilos78 on October 03, 2012, 05:59:51 PM

Theophilos78, unfortunately, I'll need to study this topic in more details.  So it'll take some time to give you a specific answer.

Take your time, no need to hurry. :)


But as I said in my previous post, quranic surahs are poetic, and so they tend to contain verses that refer to several different stories..... it's just matter of seeing the verse from a certain angle.

On one level the verse may be literal, talking about Mary the mother of Jesus, another level it may be figurative and it's talking about Mariam-- something symbolic that happened in her life.  

Who decides a verse must be interpreted literally or figuratively and why?

Again, there is only one Mariam in the Qur'an. This is why it is not likely that the sister of Aaron mentioned in Surah 19:28 was someone else.

But regardless the case, I'm not sure how these names affect the whole story?  Is there a problem if Mary&Jesus were decedents of both-- through a cousin marriage at some point?

Descendents of whom? The Qur'an does not talk about Jesus' and Mary's ancestor, but of Mary's immediate father and Jesus' grandfather (Surah 3:35).
The problem is how come Jesus' mother Mary is identified in the Qur'an as the Miriam in the Old Testament. This seems to be a gross historical blunder and assimilation.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Theophilos78 on October 03, 2012, 06:03:58 PM

I think the most important thing that we should consider, is that there is uniformity in the text that all sects of Islam use.  The Shias, Sunnis, ...etc. both use the same Quran, and they all place an emphasis on the original Arabic version.
What if all the sects of Islam follow the same corrupted and incomplete version of the Qur'an?  ;D
Would the agreement to use the same text change the fact that the text is no more perfect and original?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 03, 2012, 06:07:48 PM
Quote from: Ebor link=topic=47229.msg813947#msg813947 date=1349032173[b
]Would you please explain a bit more on your idea of males and females being "unequal" mentally? [/b]  Thank you in advance

Well, I don't know if you've read any books on human psychology, but we do indeed have different minds--it's not really debatable.  Women are better at multitasking, while men are better at making calculation.  Women tend to make decisions based on emotions while men tend to make them based on logic (faulty or not).

http://www.mastersofhealthcare.com/blog/2009/10-big-differences-between-mens-and-womens-brains/

Quote
As to the physical, while in general the average adult male is taller and stronger than the average adult female, it is not applicable to all human beings across the board.  It is not a "Law of the Universe" as it were.

As I was hinting to in a previous post......it is important to read the Quran, and study the religion by looking at things from a macro-perspective not micro.  The religion encourages right-brain thinking..... learning intuitively, seeing things from a broader perspective.... ie. see things form the Creator's point of view.

Now of course there are some females that think like men and are physically bigger than men.  But she can have a child, and men can't..... so if she gets married, it's best for her to take care of the young child... and have the men take care of the finances.  I mean, the father can't really breastfeed the child.

Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: William on October 03, 2012, 06:18:00 PM
Is Islam beautiful?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 03, 2012, 06:20:27 PM
A question related to Ebor's question about women above

We read in the Qur'an that Satan's tricks are weak (Surah 4:76).

Yet we also read in the same Qur'an that the Egyptian officer that bought Joseph said that the tricks of women are mighty (Surah 12:28).

This means when compared to Satan, women are stronger and worse in terms of deceit.

Why does the Qur'an make such a statement? How can women be mightier than Satan in terms of deceit?

Please don't take this wrong way, but I don't think you can combine these two distinct verses to make a conclusion like that.

But let's say you have a point.....so did you read what it says in Surah 4:76?  For a true believer, the tricks of satan are weak.

Now read the rest of Surah 12.... what happened to the woman when they saw the shirt being ripped from behind?  Did her 'mighty trick' work?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Kerdy on October 03, 2012, 06:21:31 PM
Before our questions get too far out in left field, lets try to remember Constantinople and the Orthodox Christians there survived under Islam more peacefully than expected, especially considering the circumstances at the time.

Having grown up among Turks, the reason may be because (a) Ottomans were much more practical than the Arabs and (b) Turks are not quite Hyperdox of the Islamic world. Don't take me wrong, they were bad enough to the Christian populations,particularly after the 16th Century.
I understand, which is why I placed "at that time" in my post.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 03, 2012, 06:22:17 PM
Is Islam beautiful?

The truth is beautiful, and the religion of Islam is just a vehicle to help you get there.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Kerdy on October 03, 2012, 06:22:41 PM
Before our questions get too far out in left field, lets try to remember Constantinople and the Orthodox Christians there survived under Islam more peacefully than expected, especially considering the circumstances at the time.

That's debatable.
Only if you ignore history.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Kerdy on October 03, 2012, 06:25:01 PM
Before our questions get too far out in left field, lets try to remember Constantinople and the Orthodox Christians there survived under Islam more peacefully than expected, especially considering the circumstances at the time.

That's debatable.
It all depends on how you define "PEACEFUL". 

Dhimmitude. My family lived it.
They would rather have been slaughtered into oblivion than submit to Islamic rule and the protection it provided for their survival?  Interesting.  Focus on what I am saying rather than what I am not saying.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Kerdy on October 03, 2012, 06:28:08 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christs!

Folks, can we kindly be a bit more mature? This thread is quickly devolving into a pity party and a stone throwing contest.  Have Muslims killed Christians? Yes, duh.  Have we killed Muslims? Yes, duh.  Here is the real clincher, have Christians fought against and killed Christians? Yes, duh :(


How about we save those obvious discussions for more pertinent threads, our Muslim brother has been considerate enough to have open and honest discussions here, can't we keep that focus instead of falling into the blame game so much and talking about persecutions? There are a plethora of threads available on this forum to have those discussions, but if we keep that going here inevitably it will begin to get focused towards even the Muslim poster here.

Many times I hear Christians say, "Why don't Muslims speak out against violence or persecution of Christians?"  They do.  I will flip it, and ask, "How come we Christians can't speak out to other Christians about being myopic in discussions about Islam?"

We know there is a history of violence, persecution, and martyrdom, and we shouldn't disregard these tragedies, but as in all matters, we must always consider the settings, time, and place.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Exactly the point to which I was eluding.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Theophilos78 on October 03, 2012, 06:46:48 PM

Please don't take this wrong way, but I don't think you can combine these two distinct verses to make a conclusion like that.

But let's say you have a point.....so did you read what it says in Surah 4:76?  For a true believer, the tricks of satan are weak.

Now read the rest of Surah 12.... what happened to the woman when they saw the shirt being ripped from behind?  Did her 'mighty trick' work?


Your answer is irrelevant to my question.

I only want to know how some women's tricks are strong whilst Satan's tricks are weak. Why this contrast?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 03, 2012, 06:48:35 PM
I have a question. I am not entirely certain of the official Muslim position, so I am only asking based off of personal experience and what I have heard. Anyway, according to many Muslims I have met, they claim that particular passages in the New Testament gospels are prophecies predicting the arrival of Muhammed, yet, these very same people also claim that the documents themselves were corrupted. Seems contradictory to me. How can you do that?

Yes most Muslims say that passages like Deuteronomy 18:18 refers to the prophet.  

About corruption...did you see this post of mine?

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,47229.msg813157.html#msg813157

It covers my opinion on the statements of truths in different religious texts.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 03, 2012, 07:01:46 PM
I am not a Dickens scholar, but I have read some of his works. That purported "quote" from him along with the others on the linked site are found in many sites supporting Islam.  But there is no citation for it or for some of the others.  I could be wrong but I can't think of how this "quote" would fit into any of his novels or shorter works.  So it is possible that it is a mis-attribution or someone did not understand who really did write it or it could be completely made up and Dickens' name applied to it.


Apparently it page 86 of this book http://www.amazon.com/Islam-Preached-Prophet-Holy-Descendants/dp/B003FQ884Q/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1349305093&sr=1-1&keywords=Islam+preached+Prophet+his+Holy+descendants

So if you can find a copy, it may have a more direct source on Dickens quote.

Quote
The campaign against and slaughter of Hussain and his followers was violent and tragic.  It is an historic fact with a  date and a place.  Why would it need support from undocumented attributed quotes.

I am not trying to be difficult but claims need to be supported.

Ebor

You're right, these quotes weren't really necessary.....but I though they were interesting sidenotes, to encourage others to read about the story of Hussein, and see what really happened to the descendants of the Prophet in the early years of Islam.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 03, 2012, 07:30:07 PM
While I have tried to read all of the responses & questions, I have not quite been able to do so COMPLETELY. 

So if this was already covered in a different way, I apologize & please link me to your response. 

I would love to know how in the world we can have different "traditions" of exegesis to what is perhaps the most important chapter of the Quran & the only one that is NAMED after Muhammad.  See link to chapter below:

http://quran.com/47

How in the world could anyone "mistake" this one?  or exegete it as "oh he meant that spiritually".  Sorry..I just don't buy it.  Seems VERY clear to me.  Thoughts? 

From my study, the first surah (Al-Fatiha) is among the most important.

Feel free to ask me about any specific parts of Surah 47, whatever you disagree with.

Also, when it comes to these surahs, it's important to study the context and setting they were revealed.  Some were revealed at times of war-- as I mentioned in one of my earlier posts:

The prophet made a peace treaty with a violent group, and that group broke that treaty and started attacking the early Muslim community.  These verses were revealed, to educate the early Muslims that it's permissible to defend yourself and fight against those who are trying to kill you-- but also it said to have mercy on those who have a change of heart.

Also I encourage you watch this movie about the prophet.... it sheds light on what kind of struggle he was going through in the early years of Islam:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlQ4Wxw5ky4

Yes, you mentioned this movie before & I watched, it.  to be honest, it was not very helpful to me, because it did not help me understand the particular history behind this Surah.  If you have any good sources that would help me uncover the history at the time of the writing of this particular Surah, I would be very grateful & would love to read them.

I do understand that historical context is important and that Muhamad waged many wars & battles between different peoples. 

However:  1.  I was under the impression that this particular surah was written during a time of peace (could be wrong about that).

2.  for me one of the hardest verses to deal with is:  (source 2 posts below)

Quote
So when you meet those who disbelieve [in battle], strike [their] necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them, then secure their bonds, and either [confer] favor afterwards or ransom [them] until the war lays down its burdens. That [is the command]. And if Allah had willed, He could have taken vengeance upon them [Himself], but [He ordered armed struggle] to test some of you by means of others. And those who are killed in the cause of Allah - never will He waste their deeds.

Yes as I said in my other post, that verse was most likely revealed at times of war.

In the movie it showed how the early Muslims were being persecuted, and it reached to a point where they had no choice but to defend themselves and fight for freedom.

That verse in particular was to help some of the novice fighters to understand how to fight in the battle-zone.  What to do, where to aim, ...etc. in order to gain victory.

This link should hopefully answer your question:

http://www.searchtruth.com/tafsir/tafsir.php?chapter=47

Remember, defending yourself from people who are trying to kill you (like in a war), is perfectly legal in Islam.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Sinful Hypocrite on October 03, 2012, 08:22:44 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


I agree with you that true muslims do not believe in a heretical ruling structure.and that they will fight on the behalf of the community to prevent the ideology deemed heretical from taking over. they are justified nay obligated to do so.

btw, the sufi flavor makes your explanations much more palatable , I am sure you know. :)

Amen Amen! Excellent point my kind sister.

  This is evidenced by the reality that most Somalis utterly reject Al Shabab's push towards Sharia, because in all actuality that degree of Islam is quite foreign to the typical Somali's experience, just like monastic Orthodox is quite foreign to your typical American or European :)

It is similar with Boko Haram in Nigeria, most Nigerians do NOT want Sharia law, this is why groups like Al Shabab and Boko Haram not only attack Christians and secular government institutions, but common people on the street who equally resist radicalism.

Violence has hijacked the Muslim narrative today.  Jihad in Islam up until the 20th century politicization of Islam after the decline of the Ottoman Empire and ascendancy of Euro-American hegemony was a spiritual concept of struggling through fasting and prayer.  When the colonial tide was reversed, and many Muslims found themselves colonized rather then the colonizers (as they had been the four hundred years previously), the concept of Jihad and the mujihadeen quite literally radically changed.  Prayer became violence.  Me personally, I came from a very radicalized background, and it was Orthodox Christianity that taught me directly the value of prayer beads over pistols to solve conflict, let us pray that many Muslims continue to learn the same.

stay blessed,
habte selassie



I was Curious about what you mentioned about monastic Orthodox being foreign to us regular Orthodox, Greek american in my case, are you talking about Monks way of life?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: HabteSelassie on October 03, 2012, 10:06:49 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



I was Curious about what you mentioned about monastic Orthodox being foreign to us regular Orthodox, Greek american in my case, are you talking about Monks way of life?

Monastic life is an extreme, every Orthodox Christian is not obligated or even beneficial to live the Monastic life if they are not monks.  Did you catch that I said typical American or European? Ask yourself, is the typical American or European even Orthodox Christians let alone monks??


Quote from: habteselassie
Violence has hijacked the Muslim narrative today.  Jihad in Islam up until the 20th century politicization of Islam after the decline of the Ottoman Empire and ascendancy of Euro-American hegemony was a spiritual concept of struggling through fasting and prayer.  When the colonial tide was reversed, and many Muslims found themselves colonized rather then the colonizers (as they had been the four hundred years previously), the concept of Jihad and the mujihadeen quite literally radically changed.  Prayer became violence.  Me personally, I came from a very radicalized background, and it was Orthodox Christianity that taught me directly the value of prayer beads over pistols to solve conflict, let us pray that many Muslims continue to learn the same.


a major case of missing the point lol I would advise to read again what I wrote lol if I thought it was genuine that is. the missing half of my qoute makes me think otherwise so... lol

Heaven forbid we try to agree about something eh, even if I try? Whatever yo  :P

Quote
those that fight against heretical ruling structure, are they fighting for religious freedom? for instance democracy as a rule of the people , can it be interprated as heresy thereby those who fight it are fighting for religious freedom which can only be realised for them when the supreme law of the land becomes Allah's law?

I didn't gloss over your first part, I must have misread your intentions, because my point was to explain that many Muslims do not necessarily want the supreme law of the land to be Allah's law, rather that is the premise of radical militants which are not fully supported by average Somalis or Nigerians.

I'm almost scared to ask, so what was this point I missed then?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Alpo on October 04, 2012, 02:19:06 AM

Koran could be refering to some eccentric form of Judaism. Or Christianity for that matter when it's talking about Trinity. Who knows what might have been out there during that time considering that even today World is filled with crazy religions.

Not possible because the verse talks about the Jews in general rather than about some unknown group of the Jews.

A case can be made that since Muhammed didn't know all of the Jews of the World and their various religious views "the Jews" refers to those jews he was aware of. He was (IIRC) just a illiterate salesman and not well versed in comparative religion.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: dzheremi on October 04, 2012, 02:38:45 AM
I've heard that particular reasoning before. It seems a little odd to me, y'know, that the Qur'an is supposed to be the immutable and eternal word of God, literally spoken to Muhammad via the angel Gabriel, and yet would contain these very basic mistakes. It's almost like "Everything we can easily explain is GOD, but everything that might seem a little iffy...well, y'know, Muhammad was just a man/only talking about the Jews of his time/etc." Fine, fine...Muhammad didn't know, but wouldn't GOD know? Or are those verses somehow not from God? Maybe Muhammad and God had a bad connection that day...I mean, the revelations did come in a cave, after all...
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: jmbejdl on October 04, 2012, 03:58:03 AM

Koran could be refering to some eccentric form of Judaism. Or Christianity for that matter when it's talking about Trinity. Who knows what might have been out there during that time considering that even today World is filled with crazy religions.

Not possible because the verse talks about the Jews in general rather than about some unknown group of the Jews.

A case can be made that since Muhammed didn't know all of the Jews of the World and their various religious views "the Jews" refers to those jews he was aware of. He was (IIRC) just a illiterate salesman and not well versed in comparative religion.

But Muhammed isn't supposed to be the author of the Koran. God is. If there are entirely human errors in the Koran, which was my point, as you suggest then you're agreeing with what Theophilos and I were talking about in the first place re. the misunderstandings of the Trinity and Judaism. I'd really like to see Fibonacci's answer to our posts as I'd like to understand how Muslims deal with this - to me it's the smoking gun that says that the Koran is not the direct word of God. So how do Muslims reconcile the details of the text with their beliefs as to the origin of the text? Or do some Muslims have a different view of the Koran, one where Muhammed is inspired rather than dictated to?

James
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Theophilos78 on October 04, 2012, 05:40:18 AM

A case can be made that since Muhammed didn't know all of the Jews of the World and their various religious views "the Jews" refers to those jews he was aware of. He was (IIRC) just a illiterate salesman and not well versed in comparative religion.

Such a case cannot be made by Muslims since it would undermine their fundamental claims regarding the source of the Qur'an.  ;D

Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Alpo on October 04, 2012, 05:47:10 AM
I've heard that particular reasoning before. It seems a little odd to me, y'know, that the Qur'an is supposed to be the immutable and eternal word of God, literally spoken to Muhammad via the angel Gabriel, and yet would contain these very basic mistakes.

God should have spoken to primitive Arabs about Jewish and Christian religious views that exist miles and miles away from their area and which they have never even thought of?

Anyway, also I would like to hear fibonacci's perspective on this. It could be true that I'm presenting too "low church" understanding of their Holy Book.

IMHO that's one of the flaws of their religion. Islam could be a nice little religion if they didn't have Muhammed and Quran. :angel:
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: jmbejdl on October 04, 2012, 05:57:03 AM
I've heard that particular reasoning before. It seems a little odd to me, y'know, that the Qur'an is supposed to be the immutable and eternal word of God, literally spoken to Muhammad via the angel Gabriel, and yet would contain these very basic mistakes.

God should have spoken to primitive Arabs about Jewish and Christian religious views that exist miles and miles away from their area and which they have never even thought of?

But your assessment of the state of Arabia prior to Mohammed is wrong. There were Jews living in Arabia prior to Islam (as is clear from the Koran itself) and there were also Christian Arabic tribes (such as the Ghassanids who were Byzantine allies against the Sassanids). These weren't miles away, they were part and parcel of the religious makeup of pre-Islamic Arabia. Everyone wasn't pagan. In addition they had trading routes to places like Egypt and Ethiopia which contained populations of both Jews and Christians. To believe that your 'primitive Arabs' had no familiarity at all with normal Christians and Jews, but only some way out sects now lost to history, is to believe in a fiction.

James
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Alpo on October 04, 2012, 06:09:55 AM
But your assessment of the state of Arabia prior to Mohammed is wrong. There were Jews living in Arabia prior to Islam (as is clear from the Koran itself) and there were also Christian Arabic tribes (such as the Ghassanids who were Byzantine allies against the Sassanids). These weren't miles away, they were part and parcel of the religious makeup of pre-Islamic Arabia. Everyone wasn't pagan. In addition they had trading routes to places like Egypt and Ethiopia which contained populations of both Jews and Christians. To believe that your 'primitive Arabs' had no familiarity at all with normal Christians and Jews, but only some way out sects now lost to history, is to believe in a fiction.

Thank you for correction. My explanation was only reasonable explanation I could think of but it seems indeed to be incorrect. I wonder if those verses were some common misconception of that time about Judaism. It would be fairly awkward for Muslims but at least it would provide reasonable explanation to why an Earth there are that kind of verses in Quran.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Theophilos78 on October 04, 2012, 06:42:14 AM
It is also not by coincidence that the Jews were accused of identifying Ezra as the Son of God only in this latest chapter of the Qur'an. The parallelism established between Christians and Jews aims to designate BOTH these religious communities as pagans/polytheists (verse 30). More, both Jews and Christians are (falsely) accused of worshipping their rabbis and priests/monks in verse 31. These verses come right after verse 29, which commands Muslims to attack the People of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and force them to conversion to Islam. Thus, it will not be wrong to say that the author of the Qur'an first ordered jihad on Jews and Christians in verse 29 and then formulated verses 30-31 and designated both Jews and Christians as pagans having many lords/gods in order to justify a religious war on them.  ;)
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: dzheremi on October 04, 2012, 11:18:49 AM
I've heard that particular reasoning before. It seems a little odd to me, y'know, that the Qur'an is supposed to be the immutable and eternal word of God, literally spoken to Muhammad via the angel Gabriel, and yet would contain these very basic mistakes.

God should have spoken to primitive Arabs about Jewish and Christian religious views that exist miles and miles away from their area and which they have never even thought of?

Anyway, also I would like to hear fibonacci's perspective on this. It could be true that I'm presenting too "low church" understanding of their Holy Book.

IMHO that's one of the flaws of their religion. Islam could be a nice little religion if they didn't have Muhammed and Quran. :angel:

To supplement James' post, you should read J. Spencer Tremingham's "Christianity Among the Arabs in Pre-Islamic Times", or look into the works of Sydney H. Griffith or Robert Hoyland, which deal with many of the same issues. You'll find that the Islamic idea of the pre-Islamic times being times of ignorance is not based on the reality of the situation on the ground, but is an ideologically-motivated claim to buttress the claims of Islam.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Shanghaiski on October 04, 2012, 11:33:37 AM
Were the Turks shia? (retorical question)
No.

No reason to blame OP, then.

The Shia Persians killed many Christian Georgians.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: HabteSelassie on October 04, 2012, 11:39:41 AM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Were the Turks shia? (retorical question)
No.

No reason to blame OP, then.


The Shia Persians killed many Christian Georgians.


Is that still a reason to blame the OP who has been so kind to share with us?  Again as I mentioned above, clearly and obviously we all have mutual grievances, but this thread doesn't seem to be the time or place to air out that laundry.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Shanghaiski on October 04, 2012, 11:51:19 AM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Were the Turks shia? (retorical question)
No.

No reason to blame OP, then.


The Shia Persians killed many Christian Georgians.


Is that still a reason to blame the OP who has been so kind to share with us?  Again as I mentioned above, clearly and obviously we all have mutual grievances, but this thread doesn't seem to be the time or place to air out that laundry.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Not sure what grievances the Mohammedans would have against the Orthodox. Didn't say it was an excuse to attack the OP, just pointing the historical facts.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: recent convert on October 04, 2012, 12:04:32 PM
I have nothing against the OP or any particular follower of Islam in particular nor do I against a Marxist. I always pray that I have the courage to oppose each system. Personally I have respect towards Tibet & its variant of Buddhism; an invading jihad expedition was buried under a landslide centuries ago but Tibet was later overrun by communism. Jesus Christ commands us to grieve for the loss of jihad lives, Marxist lives, & Tibetan Buddhist lives. I still do not like Islam & marxism & I still have respect for Tibetan Buddhism.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: chrevbel on October 04, 2012, 04:19:49 PM
We're living in crazy times, and hopefully with this thread we can have a better understanding.
So feel free to ask me anything you want about Islam, I'll try to answer it to the best of my knowledge.
Thanks very much
A number of mosques in Bulgaria (and elsewhere, but I'll use Bulgaria as an example) were Christian churches prior to the invasion and occupation by the Ottoman Empire.  Those churches were confiscated and converted into mosques.  Is there any discussion within Islam that these properties should be returned to their rightful owners?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Iconodule on October 04, 2012, 04:52:40 PM
What is the relation of Shia Islam to Sufism? I understand that Sufis tend to be predominately Sunni but there is some crossover as well.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Sinful Hypocrite on October 04, 2012, 06:27:10 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



I was Curious about what you mentioned about monastic Orthodox being foreign to us regular Orthodox, Greek american in my case, are you talking about Monks way of life?

Monastic life is an extreme, every Orthodox Christian is not obligated or even beneficial to live the Monastic life if they are not monks.  Did you catch that I said typical American or European? Ask yourself, is the typical American or European even Orthodox Christians let alone monks??


stay blessed,
habte selassie

I was just thinking there might be a different denomination or something I was missing, hard to keep up sometimes, but I understood you correctly and agree wholeheartedly with your assessment .
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 04, 2012, 08:36:29 PM
We're living in crazy times, and hopefully with this thread we can have a better understanding.
So feel free to ask me anything you want about Islam, I'll try to answer it to the best of my knowledge.
Thanks very much
A number of mosques in Bulgaria (and elsewhere, but I'll use Bulgaria as an example) were Christian churches prior to the invasion and occupation by the Ottoman Empire.  Those churches were confiscated and converted into mosques.  Is there any discussion within Islam that these properties should be returned to their rightful owners?

Check out my other thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,45203.0.html
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 04, 2012, 09:09:49 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Thank you for the kind greetings Habte, and God bless you for the interesting insights.

It's the first time I've heard the term "spiritual metabolism", but I will make sure to do more research on it.  I fully agree with your analysis.


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I like this, it agrees with a Mayan-MesoAmerican philosophy called "spiritual metabolism" which I generally translated into hood-speak as "You get what you give."  To these folks, our purpose in the Divine economy is to translate physical energy into spiritual energy, thoughts and feelings.  We eat apples, and we give thanks to God, and so the positive feeds off our feelings.  The spirits then cultivate us like a garden, if we have a diet on negativity, the negative forces cultivate us towards increasingly negative consumption patterns until we destroy ourselves and the world in the process!  When we seek good feelings, positive energies, and beneficial things, we attract angels, saints, and yes God to come into our lives.  When we prefer to dine and feast on negative emotions, thoughts, and feelings, we cultivate negative forces like devils and demons.  So we should learn to focus on finding Grace and not avarice :)

Yes, the jinns no doubt feed off on our negative emotions, and if God allows them, they have the ability to change 'luck' in such ways for those emotions to keep happening.

For example, say hypothetically speaking, you had extreme envious feelings towards a wealthy friend who has a really nice car.  The jinns will affect both your lives.  They'll either push you towards financial ruins, and have your friend get even more wealthy..... and the jinns keep feeding off on the jealousy.  Or, they'll make your friend lose their wealth, or severely damage the car, ...etc.  and if you have any type of pleasure from their pain, they'll feed off that aswell.  If the feelings get too extreme, and violence happens where blood is shed..... that'll be ecstasy for the jinns.  

So it's really important to watch ourselves and not giving into those negative feelings.
 
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As a dreadlock, I didn't consume alcohol for eight years following the Nazirite vow, and I can say, it is a very good lifestyle not to drink.  My mom never had drink in her life, my paternal grandfather neither, and they are some of the most joyful people I know all the same.  Me, sometimes lately I need a drink ;)

Thanks for taking on this task by the way, we could really use some different perspective and dialogue about these matters.

Let me ask a question related to this idea, do Muslims then find Holy Communion offensive or sacrilegious even?

stay blessed,
habte selassie

God bless you, I pray for you to continue staying sober...

About your question, I think it's a great thing to have dinner ceremonies, getting in touch with your neighbors and friends-- nothing offensive with that.  However, it's best not to serve alcoholic beverages (wine)...  to keep a positive atmosphere, so those negative emotions are kept to a minimal.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Cantor Krishnich on October 04, 2012, 10:09:25 PM
What is the relation of Shia Islam to Sufism? I understand that Sufis tend to be predominately Sunni but there is some crossover as well.

My grandmother is a devout Shia Sufi so I probably can help a little with that question. Rumi, the founder of the Sufi Mehlevi Order, was a Persian Iranian and very well known for his Sufi poetry. In my opinion, Sufism very well fits in with Persian religious culture as some of its Persian followers have seen it as a blend a few Islam and a few Zoroastrian aspects. The Sufis of Iran were persecuted under the Ayatollah Khomeini. Examples of Sufi-Shia crossover: the Alevis (Turkey), the Bektashis (Albania and Bosnia), and the Sufis of Iran and Afghanistan.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: JamesR on October 05, 2012, 06:17:58 PM
What is the relationship between mainstream Islam and the more non-conventional forms of Islam like the Nation of Islam or the Five Percent Nation which are popular among impoverished Black folks in urban areas? Are they considered real Muslims or are they considered a weird offshoot, like the weird Evangelical Christian Churches that sometimes open up?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Nicene on October 07, 2012, 06:10:30 AM
Why does the quran say that the true Christians would be victorius to the day of ressurection when the only possible canndidate for any group fulfilling that are the Nicene Christians?

I'll be honest with you, this is the first time I've heard the term 'Nicene Christians'... I'll have to read more about this.

But in general, any individual (Christians or not) who live a pious lifestyle where their good deeds outweigh the bad deeds, and they follow their hearth/intuition... will be victorious on the day of resurrection.

That is a Christian in the tradition of Nicea, a Nicene Christian, this encompasses virtually all of christendom today, certaintly the most ancient communions (orthodoxy included). These Christians in direct violation to the quran's statements on Christ were the victorius ones who by the time Muhammad came on the scene were in total control of both the eastern and western empires.

Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Ebor on October 07, 2012, 10:43:00 AM
I'm sorry, but when making claims about history the times and places are not "minor" facts. They matter.  Good verifiable information can support a person's ideas while errors will not. Dates and places are some of the important facts that are needed to establish what truely happened when and where.   They are part of the context that is necessary to understand the larger picture. 
Meaning no offense to you, but having a "macro perspective" of history sounds vague. If I were to make some claim about history of an event I would have to give some checkable information for other people to use to find out (if they wanted) that such a situation was True.  Just because there was some idea that I liked doesn't mean that it is the truth.


I'm sorry Ebor, but what I meant, was that when it comes to history, I pay more attention to the lessonsthat can be learned and less about specific dates, places, ...etc.  I believe our thinking process is different, and we place emphasis on different things.  I suggest you read about left-brain vs right-brain thinking.... I know that I'm more of a right-brain thinker, so that's why I said "macro perspective".
I mean no offense to you in this, but you are making assumptions on my thinking and understanding if you are under the impression that I do not find "lessons" in history, but only facts.  Sometimes it may be the case that a "lesson" might be drawn that is not, in fact, based on real situations or facts.

A case in point: as a Muslim you esteem the Quran and claimed that "the original" has been preserved in totality but that this is not the case for either the Jewish or Christian scriptures.  This seemed to have the meaning, or lesson if you will, that there is something superior to Islam because of this preservation.  However, the reality and fact of the manuscript and its history  from what I found is that 1) there is only about 1/3 of it left and 2) there is more than one as Uthmar had five copies made and then burned all of the versions that had variations which, it was noted with a reference, were usually minor.  So there is no exisiting complete "original copy" of the Quran either. 

If I misunderstood the lesson that you were trying to get across I apologize.    I am also aware of the left/right brain theories and the human brain has different areas of functioning in the different halves.  But was there a particular person's/group's ideas that you are thinking of, please?


Quote
Quote
I apologize for any unintended offense, but I know more of the subject than you seem to think that I do.  And I disagree with your idea as to what brought the Golden Age to an end.  In Spain/Al-Andaluz for example there was suppression of the thought and philosophy of other Muslims under the Almohad rulers.  I suppose that one might say that that was a change in the "political system" but it wasn't along the lines that you described above.  Here is the wiki link on the Almohad reforms though I can find other material on this if desired.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almohad_reforms
Wikipedia can be a good starting place but deeper understanding comes from the sources and cited materials.

Now I'm not denying it wasn't all peaceful in the early years. Muslims were being harmed by hypocritical Muslims all the time... remember the story of Karbala where Hussein (the prophet's grandson) and his community was struggling to find peace because they didn't go along with evil monarchs who wanted to use the religion as a political force. So just like there were problems in Spain, there were problems in the mideast

From your view as a Shia Muslim, those who slaughtered Hussein and his followers (I am familiar with the history of the early years of Islam) were hypocritical and evil.  From the Sunni side they were rebelling against the right way and were dealt with albeit with violence.  My point is that there is more than one "side" or view of events.

Quote
But overall it was a peaceful time (golden age) and science/tech was advancing fast in that region.  The reason why, is because the religion educated the general public what human rights are.  To free slaves, to not kill female children, to be peaceful with others, to be generous, to not deceive one another in the marketplace...etc.  Once freedom and human rights were recognized, then the region started to prosper. 

Just to understand, when you refer to a particular "region" you mean the area of Persia/Iran?  There was a vast area beyond that which was conquered by forces under the banner of Islam beyond that land and the Arabian Peninsula.

 
Quote
The prosperity ended when evil political changes happened, which restricted freedom in some way... that's when economic changes happened.  This is what the devil does.... as the quran says 'he threatens you with poverty'.  The devil took over and everything good faded... people let it happen when they didn't take the religion seriously.

Would you please give some more specific information about the times and events that you are thinking of here?  What political changes in the Middle East and who wasn't taking the religion seriously?  Thank you.



Quote
I'm sure you know more about this topic than I do.   But when I studied a subject like optics, I rarely find Al Hazen's name in the text..... you see only Newton (who did add a lot of original ideas...someone I admire), but the book should at least have a few sentences on Al Hazen.

Similar thing with Algebra/Trigonometry texts, you always see bios of European scientists like Euler, Gauss, Euclid, ...etc.... but no mention of the Muslim scholars.

Same thing with Robotic textbooks.... no mention of al-Jazari, who is really the father of robotics.


Well, one question is: Is it the function of the book to refer to everyone who may have been historically involved in a subject or is it focused on a narrower field?  Why should any book on optics have a few sentences on Al-Hazen? What about references to the ancient Mesopotamians, Egyptians, Greeks and Romans who did things with Optics?  From my point should I expect that the English Bishop Robert Grosseteste or Roger Bacon be mentioned in optics texts because they did work in that area?   If the purpose of a text is to instruct on a particular subject technically, the writer(s) may not think that historical background is necessary.

It could be that there is less documentation of earlier persons in any particular field.  Or how available are some people's works in other languages?  Were Al-Hazan's and Al-Jazari's writings translated into any European languages and made widely available?  That is one thing that the 'net is good for: making obscure or historical sources widely available.  Euclid  and Hipparchus are much earlier than the the start of Islam and what we know of them and their works is in Greek and Latin.  Newton wrote in Latin and English. How available are a person's works in other languages and if copies survive can also contribute to knowing about them.

It should also be noted that the persons you mentioned were drawing in many cases on the earlier work of the Greeks and other cultures.  That was one significant action when Muslims spread to the Persian area: some rulers preserved the libraries and documents that were found and these were then translated and drawn upon by others.

I would not give Al-Jazari the title of "father of Robotics" when there were automata of various kinds in many places and times that pre-date him. There are accounts of them from ancient China, Egypt, Greece and Rome. Technology is more of a continuum with people building on what came before.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automata

One can try to see history with wide view that encompasses many cultures and times as well as focusing on a particular period and area.

With respect,

Ebor
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Ebor on October 07, 2012, 10:52:20 AM
Here is an article from the BBC in 06 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4581684.stm
 on a manuscript that is said to be the Quran of Uthman/Othman and that is located in Tashkent. It is so fragile that it is kept in a special case and people are not able to just read it.  The report also says that due to the deterioration over the centuries of the deer skin on which it was written only about 1/3 of it, about 250 pages, still exists.  There is a reference to another partial copy (five were said to have been made at the time, not just one) that is in the Topkapi Palace in Istanbul.

This counters the claim that the "original" Quran is preserved in totality.

I think the most important thing that we should consider, is that there is uniformity in the text that all sects of Islam use.  The Shias, Sunnis, ...etc. both use the same Quran, and they all place an emphasis on the original Arabic version.

Yes, there is uniformity because it was enforced by Uthman and the variations were destroyed.  The variant texts did exist.  That is not the same as there is one "original" document that is complete and preserved. 

Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Ebor on October 07, 2012, 11:37:51 AM
Quote from: Ebor link=topic=47229.msg813947#msg813947 date=1349032173[b
]Would you please explain a bit more on your idea of males and females being "unequal" mentally? [/b]  Thank you in advance

Well, I don't know if you've read any books on human psychology, but we do indeed have different minds--it's not really debatable.  Women are better at multitasking, while men are better at making calculation.  Women tend to make decisions based on emotions while men tend to make them based on logic (faulty or not).

http://www.mastersofhealthcare.com/blog/2009/10-big-differences-between-mens-and-womens-brains/

I have read some on human psychology and your claim is debateable.  First, you wrote that women and men are "mentally unequal".  Perhaps I should have been more clear and ask if you think that females are less intelligent then males.  "Different" is not the same as "unequal" by the way but your word was the latter.

Next, why should the linked source be considered any form of authority?  It is not documented, the author has not given any credentials that she knows what she is writing about and the site is one for finding information on medical school programs. It is not one on the study of human brain function.  I would trust a neurologist like Olive Sacks who is a known figure in the field, over an unknown person who puts up an essay on-line. Also, the essay uses words like "tend" and "typically".  Those are generalizations that do not necessarily apply to individual women and men.

Just to be plain, I will assert that there is no "women" or no "men" that is that there isn't a single "all are this way" monolithic bloc that does apply to all people of either sex.  There are billions of individual human beings with some things in common yet each is unique in her/his person. 


Quote
Quote
As to the physical, while in general the average adult male is taller and stronger than the average adult female, it is not applicable to all human beings across the board.  It is not a "Law of the Universe" as it were.

As I was hinting to in a previous post......it is important to read the Quran, and study the religion by looking at things from a macro-perspective not micro.  The religion encourages right-brain thinking..... learning intuitively, seeing things from a broader perspective.... ie. see things form the Creator's point of view.

Now of course there are some females that think like men and are physically bigger than men.  But she can have a child, and men can't..... so if she gets married, it's best for her to take care of the young child... and have the men take care of the finances.  I mean, the father can't really breastfeed the child.

So you are saying that in your view the Quran, if read "poetically" as opposed to what for some is the plain meaning of some portions, somehow trumps the functioning or abilities of real living human beings?   

I'm sorry, would you please clarify what you mean if that is not the case?  I am trying to understand your particular view point.

Thank you.

 
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Ebor on October 07, 2012, 11:47:53 AM
I am not a Dickens scholar, but I have read some of his works. That purported "quote" from him along with the others on the linked site are found in many sites supporting Islam.  But there is no citation for it or for some of the others.  I could be wrong but I can't think of how this "quote" would fit into any of his novels or shorter works.  So it is possible that it is a mis-attribution or someone did not understand who really did write it or it could be completely made up and Dickens' name applied to it.


Apparently it page 86 of this book http://www.amazon.com/Islam-Preached-Prophet-Holy-Descendants/dp/B003FQ884Q/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1349305093&sr=1-1&keywords=Islam+preached+Prophet+his+Holy+descendants

So if you can find a copy, it may have a more direct source on Dickens quote.

It could be tricky since Amazon does not appear to have it at this time, though I can do a seaerch.  Have *you* read this book?  or did you just find this set of quotes on line in one of the many sites where they are repeated without any sources?  It could be that the book gets the quotes from the 'net.  Then it would not be a good source, but highly dubious.

Quote
Quote
The campaign against and slaughter of Hussain and his followers was violent and tragic.  It is an historic fact with a  date and a place.  Why would it need support from undocumented attributed quotes.

I am not trying to be difficult but claims need to be supported.

Ebor

You're right, these quotes weren't really necessary.....but I though they were interesting sidenotes, to encourage others to read about the story of Hussein, and see what really happened to the descendants of the Prophet in the early years of Islam.

And would you encourage people to read about the conflict between the two factions that became Sunni and Shia from the Sunni point of view, too?  There was disagreement from the start and it continues to this day.

<edited for spelling correction>
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Theophilos78 on October 07, 2012, 11:48:42 AM
First, you wrote that women and men are "mentally unequal".  Perhaps I should have been more clear and ask if you think that females are less intelligent then males.  "Different" is not the same as "unequal" by the way but your word was the latter.


For most Muslims the word "identical" means "equal" and the word "different" means "unequal".

For instance, when I tell them that God is three distinct yet equal persons, they immediately protest and say that it's impossible to talk of three equal persons if they are distinct.  ;)
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Ebor on October 07, 2012, 12:05:27 PM
If that is the case Theophilos78, then the implication would be that one set/group/person would be superior.  To be blunt, it seems to my reading then that in the "mentally unequal" equation it would be not be saying that "women" are more intelligent than "men" but rather the reverse and that it is to be applied to all human beings no matter their individual gifts and abilities.

 :-\
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Theophilos78 on October 07, 2012, 12:11:16 PM
If that is the case Theophilos78, then the implication would be that one set/group/person would be superior.  To be blunt, it seems to my reading then that in the "mentally unequal" equation it would be not be saying that "women" are more intelligent than "men" but rather the reverse and that it is to be applied to all human beings no matter their individual gifts and abilities.

 :-\

This is unfortunately the case. I even remember that at school my professor of religion once said that men have beard whereas women do not. This proves that men are superior to women.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: dzheremi on October 07, 2012, 12:16:36 PM
And this is a surprise in a religion in which a woman's testimony in court is not valued as that of a man, and the founder of the religion itself supposedly said that women are deficient in intelligence? I'd be more sad that women buy into this garbage (women are said, at least by Islamic apologists, to be the majority of converts to Islam, and in my own life most of the converts I have known have been women). Certainly the intelligence of those particular women is at least being suppressed at the time of their conversion... ;) (though not later on, as the majority of converts eventually leave the religion, thank God.)
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Theophilos78 on October 07, 2012, 12:24:58 PM
And this is a surprise in a religion in which a woman's testimony in court is not valued as that of a man, and the founder of the religion itself supposedly said that women are deficient in intelligence? I'd be more sad that women buy into this garbage (women are said, at least by Islamic apologists, to be the majority of converts to Islam, and in my own life most of the converts I have known have been women). Certainly the intelligence of those particular women is at least being suppressed at the time of their conversion... ;) (though not later on, as the majority of converts eventually leave the religion, thank God.)

Women who know Islam well yet convert to it cannot be said to be intelligent though.  ;D

Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Ebor on October 07, 2012, 12:26:26 PM
If that is the case Theophilos78, then the implication would be that one set/group/person would be superior.  To be blunt, it seems to my reading then that in the "mentally unequal" equation it would be not be saying that "women" are more intelligent than "men" but rather the reverse and that it is to be applied to all human beings no matter their individual gifts and abilities.

 :-\

This is unfortunately the case. I even remember that at school my professor of religion once said that men have beard whereas women do not. This proves that men are superior to women.  :laugh:

   ???   The physical property of having hair growing on the lower part of the face = "superior"...

I think I'm missing part of that particular ermm logical progression, especially since human females, being mammals, also have hair, though generally not as dark/thick as males.  But that can vary by genetic heritage as well. 

and then there's the rest of the unfinished sentence  that they are superior "in what"?  Having some additional protection against cold or sunburn?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Theophilos78 on October 07, 2012, 12:27:59 PM

Having hair growing on the lower part of the face = "superior"...

I think I'm missing part of that particular ermm logical progression.  

and then there's the rest of the unfinished sentence  that they are superior "in what"?

"In terms of creation" they would respond.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Ebor on October 07, 2012, 12:33:01 PM

Having hair growing on the lower part of the face = "superior"...

I think I'm missing part of that particular ermm logical progression.  

and then there's the rest of the unfinished sentence  that they are superior "in what"?

"In terms of creation" they would respond.


More hair = superior creation?  Perhaps I need more coffee but my first thought was then other creatures with much more hair coverage are superior?

"BigFoot" if he existed would be the pinnacle of creation?

Sorry, still obviously missing something.   ;)
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: dzheremi on October 07, 2012, 12:38:01 PM
You're missing something because you're trying to make Islam make sense, Ebor. Stop it. That's a trick of the dajjal to deceive you from having perfect iman. :D With better faith, you'd be able to believe in any old thing that Muhammad Allah believes, purely because the Qur'an says so Allah's apostle said it.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Theophilos78 on October 07, 2012, 12:40:24 PM
The good side of Islam is that you need no brains to understand its logic.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 07, 2012, 08:02:23 PM
Are you Sufi?

No I'm not.

But the ones I've met, are very nice people, very spiritual and have amazing insights.

However, there are some things I disagree with... for example

their emphasis on hierarchical structure, and their extensive use of spiritually charged symbols/objects (something that's very similar to the pagan religion).


Btw, to clarify... I do not accept religious symbols.  That star&moon symbol is not of Islamic origin, it's of pagan origin and it's wrong to use it in mosques, on flags, ...etc.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: dzheremi on October 07, 2012, 08:18:56 PM
But aren't there still religious symbols in Islam, Fibonacci? Even the flag of the Shahada, while in some sense purely textual, is still a symbol, in that even those who could not read it came to eventually associate it with Islam. Or, for that matter, the association of the color green with Islam. You can't get more symbolic/abstract than taking a color and tying meaning into it.

This reminds me of the conundrum of Protestant Christians, who will often look at physical acts or objects in the Church and say "that's idolatry" or "that's paganism", but not even consider why they might have an American flag somewhere in their church (we had one off to the side of the stage in the Presbyterian church I was raised in), or their pastor might of a photograph of his wife on his desk in his office, or they might even have modern drawings (not icons) of a rather hippie-ish Jesus in the "teen bibles" produced or purchased for use in their youth groups.

Many people have more symbols in their spiritual lives than their 'orthodoxy' allows them to admit.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on October 07, 2012, 08:20:18 PM
Explain Islamic sexual morality and sexual taboos in Islam. Is it comparable with Christianity?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 07, 2012, 09:00:28 PM
Thanks so much for making this thread! I've learned a lot about Islam that I never knew before.

I've heard that some sects of Islam, like Druze, see Krishna, the Hindu God, as a prophet of God. Is this universal, or just confined to Druze?

Most sects of Islam agree that there were prophets in every region of earth... but they won't specifically say if Krishna, or someone like Budda were.

Note that:

Surah 30 verse 58:  http://quran.com/30/58

talks about how mankind has received the same wisdom/truths that's in the quran.

Also http://quran.com/16/36

talks about how messengers were sent into every region, to guide the people, to follow God and not satan.

So every religion on earth had the same truths/wisdoms at the time of their origins, and it was coming from messengers/prophets chosen by God (probably the most pious individual of a community).

So there is a good chance that Krishna was a prophet as well, since there are a lot of truthful wisdom in the hindu religion.  However today it's most likely a lot of things were corrupted... for example reincarnation (eerily similar to the pagan religion) and worshiping multiple Gods  (also very similar to the pagan religion-- they believe that multiple God would never have disagreements with one another when they created the universe). 

In fact, I've spoken with hindus who said that at a very deep level... hinduisim gives hints that all these Gods are different forms of One God.  So at a deep level hinduisim is also a monotheistic religion -- just not at the mainstream level.  So it's a matter of spending time, researching the religion and look at patterns that are shared with other religions.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 07, 2012, 09:16:11 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19776747



almost daily!-------------WHY?


Sooo very hard to find compassion in my heart any more.

These are very sad news... I have no explanation for the radical behaviors of this wahabbi group.

If you read my previous posts, you'll see that I mentioned that shia Iran have always been fighting these wahabbi groups throughout the 90s-- and were warning many nations about these radical movements long before the global community officially payed attention to it.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: JamesR on October 08, 2012, 02:12:04 AM
What is the relationship between mainstream Islam and the more non-conventional forms of Islam like the Nation of Islam or the Five Percent Nation which are popular among impoverished Black folks in urban areas? Are they considered real Muslims or are they considered a weird offshoot, like the weird Evangelical Christian Churches that sometimes open up?

You never answered my question :-(
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Severian on October 08, 2012, 03:57:29 AM
How do you get around the fact that the Lord Jesus' earliest followers taught that He was God?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: jmbejdl on October 08, 2012, 04:23:59 AM
You never answered my question :-(

Likewise.

Fibonacci,

Is there any chance that you could answer my query as to how you deal with the errors in the Quran, given that it is my understanding (which may be wrong) that Muslims believe it to be the direct word of God?

James
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: orthonorm on October 08, 2012, 11:10:21 AM
What is the relationship between mainstream Islam and the more non-conventional forms of Islam like the Nation of Islam or the Five Percent Nation which are popular among impoverished Black folks in urban areas? Are they considered real Muslims or are they considered a weird offshoot, like the weird Evangelical Christian Churches that sometimes open up?

You never answered my question :-(

James this is a sorta pointless question and the answer is easily found elsewhere.

I have no idea from where fibonacci hails, but it could likely be he would have to google what you are asking about in the first place.

I've never met a mainstream Muslim who thought there was any connection between the NOI its founding organization, or the off shoots from it. Almost none know anything about them.

If you know anything about Black Islam and Islam you would know that the teachings held by Black Muslims would be considered extremely heretical by any "orthodox" Muslim. 
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: orthonorm on October 08, 2012, 11:13:41 AM
You never answered my question :-(

Likewise.

Fibonacci,

Is there any chance that you could answer my query as to how you deal with the errors in the Quran, given that it is my understanding (which may be wrong) that Muslims believe it to be the direct word of God?

James

Islam doesn't hold the Koran to be the direct word of God.

This is one of basics of Islamic thought and practice.

Now, most Muslims I've met would argue there are no errors in the Koran.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Iconodule on October 08, 2012, 11:18:45 AM
What is the relationship between mainstream Islam and the more non-conventional forms of Islam like the Nation of Islam or the Five Percent Nation which are popular among impoverished Black folks in urban areas? Are they considered real Muslims or are they considered a weird offshoot, like the weird Evangelical Christian Churches that sometimes open up?

You never answered my question :-(

James this is a sorta pointless question and the answer is easily found elsewhere.

I have no idea from where fibonacci hails, but it could likely be he would have to google what you are asking about in the first place.

I've never met a mainstream Muslim who thought there was any connection between the NOI its founding organization, or the off shoots from it. Almost none know anything about them.

If you know anything about Black Islam and Islam you would know that the teachings held by Black Muslims would be considered extremely heretical by any "orthodox" Muslim. 

"Black Muslims" not to be confused with Muslims who are black. I believe the majority of African-American Muslims are "orthodox" nowadays. The Nation of Islam has some unusual ideas, as I recall, such as believing that white people were created by an evil mad scientist.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: orthonorm on October 08, 2012, 11:26:33 AM
What is the relationship between mainstream Islam and the more non-conventional forms of Islam like the Nation of Islam or the Five Percent Nation which are popular among impoverished Black folks in urban areas? Are they considered real Muslims or are they considered a weird offshoot, like the weird Evangelical Christian Churches that sometimes open up?

You never answered my question :-(

James this is a sorta pointless question and the answer is easily found elsewhere.

I have no idea from where fibonacci hails, but it could likely be he would have to google what you are asking about in the first place.

I've never met a mainstream Muslim who thought there was any connection between the NOI its founding organization, or the off shoots from it. Almost none know anything about them.

If you know anything about Black Islam and Islam you would know that the teachings held by Black Muslims would be considered extremely heretical by any "orthodox" Muslim.  

"Black Muslims" not to be confused with Muslims who are black. I believe the majority of African-American Muslims are "orthodox" nowadays. The Nation of Islam has some unusual ideas, as I recall, such as believing that white people were created by an evil mad scientist.

There are still a few hold out from the good ol' days. I pass a guy nearly every day slinging The Final Call and incense with the requisite bow tie.

I get my hair cut every other time in a barber shop owned by a Black Muslim (that would be opposed to a black Muslim) the older guys are NOI but some the younger kidz don't believe in anything or claim to be Fiver Percenters and the like.

When this subject comes I always have to point out the the NOI is a schismatic group from a group of much cooler cats:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moorish_Science_Temple_of_America
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: HabteSelassie on October 08, 2012, 11:29:44 AM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

The good side of Islam is that you need no brains to understand its logic.  :laugh:

Yeah,  because look where all those brains, logic, and understanding got the Catholic Church (Reformation, I'm looking at you ;) )

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 09, 2012, 01:23:54 AM
1. Do Muslims believe in abrogation of the Qur'an?
2. Why is chess forbidden in Islam? (http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=028&translator=2&start=0&number=5612#5612)

1.  Yes, latter rules in the Qur'an replace initial rules.  The initial rules were there to ease the early muslims into the religion.

For example on alcohol, it initially says that they lead you to sin, then another verse talks about avoiding drunkiness, and finally a verse came out for the out right ban of it.

2.  Chess is allowed so long as you treat it as a mental exercise, and you don't become obsessed with it, to the point where it affects your emotions (anger, hubris,...etc.). 

It's the same thing with sports.  Playing it to improve your health and/or communication/team skills is not a problem.  It becomes a problem when someone becomes obsessed with it and treats it as a religion.  Today unfortunately, many young muslims are way too obsessed about professional football.  They worship it like it's a God.  They know all sorts of facts about football starts, their style of play and their private lives... but have no clue how the economy works and how usury is harming society.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 09, 2012, 01:26:07 AM
Is it really credible to suggest drinking urine for health?
http://islamqa.info/en/ref/83423

Do you consider drinking Muhammad's urine was "a great blessing?"
http://today.almasryalyoum.com/article2.aspx?ArticleID=62653

Would you drink someone's urine, or camel's urine?



Thank you for the laugh ;)

The answer to all three of your questions is NO.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Nicene on October 09, 2012, 01:35:49 AM
Can I get an answer to my question?

What do you make of the fact the quran says the true followers of Christ would be victorius to the day of ressurection. That those who were victorius at the time of Muhammad were those who worshipped Christ and called him God, in direct violation to the quran which says this is blasphemy.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 09, 2012, 01:44:50 AM
But, they have medical evidence such as bruising and tearing of tissues.  Do they consider that forensic evidence?
What happens to the victim if she does not prove her case?

The court will in no doubt consider all evidences.
If she can't prove her case, the community will most likely analyze past behaviors of the accuser.  Talk to neighbors, teachers, ...etc. to figuire out what kind of character he is.  The truth will eventually come out.


Quote
Please explain "baseerat vision".  Who has this spiritual discernment?

Baseerat vision as I mentioned before, is spiritual discernment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discernment .

The more pious you are.. that is, the longer you live a life working very hard avoiding all sins, the more likely you'll achieve this vision.
Once you've obtain it, you'll instantly be able to see the evil around you.  You'll be able to see corruption around you.  

You'll be able to see the evil on very very bad people.  Like corrupt politicians, murders, thieves, bullies ....etc.  

The best example I can give you... is this movie scene

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inZUDMGJsKo
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 09, 2012, 02:01:31 AM
Can I get an answer to my question?

What do you make of the fact the quran says the true followers of Christ would be victorius to the day of ressurection. That those who were victorius at the time of Muhammad were those who worshipped Christ and called him God, in direct violation to the quran which says this is blasphemy.

Nicene, you have to give me time... I'm still on page 3 answering questions.  

But here's a brief answer, and hopefully it answers other user's questions about trinity:


Firstly, you know Muslims in the future are also going to be followers of Christ as well, so it's not referring exclusively to Christians.  Also there are some Christians after the prophet's time who have rejected trinity.  

For example, Issac Newton, who spent his whole life searching for the truth.  He spent a considerable amount of time studying the bible and spirituality, and he eventually reached a point where he secretly rejected trinity.

One of the things that Christians say that Jesus is the Lord or son of God, is because he's a special divine leader who didn't have a father.  But if that's the case, what would Adam be?  He didn't have a father nor a mother.



Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Nicene on October 09, 2012, 02:13:25 AM
The context of the quran (which usually lacks context) is quite clear in this regaurd, that is Christ is talking to his desciples, who will be my helpers in allah? And then when the apostles answer this we are told that the followers of Christ (from the apostles) would be victorius to the day of ressurection. So theres no real way to include muslims into this category and even if you do, before islam the dominant power, the victorius ones were the Western and Eastern Empires, which were CHristian and Nicene in their definition.

You mention CHristians who rejected the trinity, certaintly there were groups, but none of them were victorius by the time Muhammad came, thus the quran cannot be talking about them and none of these groups were islamic. The arrians considered Christ the first created entity, a pre existent creature who God used and gave power to create the world and everyone in it. This is in stark contrast to the quran and Islam which has Christ as a created being on earth.

So there are categories you must find in order to avoid the obvious conclusion of the Christian roman empire being talked about;

1. They must be before Muhammad

2. They must be the victorius ones

3. They must be of the apostles who followed Christ

The only ones who fit into this category by reason and historical standards are the Orthodox Christians.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Alpo on October 09, 2012, 02:21:24 AM
What's the relationship between Islam and Jews? I've understood that Islam has more negative view of Jews than of Christians. Am I correct? Why is that?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 09, 2012, 02:34:48 AM
Fibonacci,

While there will always be obvious tension to some degree between any two religious faiths and those two faiths will never reconcile all differences, I wanted to say I appreciate you coming here and sharing with us.  I know it may not be easy.  I wish more followers of Islam would voice themselves in the manner you have here.  I think it would help us, but more importantly it would help other Muslims.

Thanks for the kind words Kerdy.

There are quite a bit of Muslims who voice themselves, but unfortunately they're not native-English speakers.  But here are two converts (both actors) who're very eloquent in their speaking:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiJygWrkoX0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCyziDBWPic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SmofZmpFFM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBaJ9Cb1TDc
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 09, 2012, 03:26:52 AM
The context of the quran (which usually lacks context) is quite clear in this regaurd, that is Christ is talking to his desciples, who will be my helpers in allah? And then when the apostles answer this we are told that the followers of Christ (from the apostles) would be victorius to the day of ressurection. So theres no real way to include muslims into this category and even if you do, before islam the dominant power, the victorius ones were the Western and Eastern Empires, which were CHristian and Nicene in their definition.

You mention CHristians who rejected the trinity, certaintly there were groups, but none of them were victorius by the time Muhammad came, thus the quran cannot be talking about them and none of these groups were islamic. The arrians considered Christ the first created entity, a pre existent creature who God used and gave power to create the world and everyone in it. This is in stark contrast to the quran and Islam which has Christ as a created being on earth.

So there are categories you must find in order to avoid the obvious conclusion of the Christian roman empire being talked about;

1. They must be before Muhammad

2. They must be the victorius ones

3. They must be of the apostles who followed Christ

The only ones who fit into this category by reason and historical standards are the Orthodox Christians.

Please forgive me for my misunderstanding...  I thought you were talking about something else (christ vs anti-christ conflict).

I think you're referring to surah 30 verse 2?

Am I correct?  In that case... yes I fully agree with you that... this verse is not referring to the western roman empire.  It was a very bad translation..... and it's referring to the  Byzantine Roman Empire... and yes the Orthodox Christians.

Have you seen my other thread?  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,45203.0.html

One day, Constantinople is going to be returned to the orthodox Christians.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: JamesR on October 09, 2012, 03:38:01 AM
Why can't the Abrahamic religions be cool, modern and peaceful like Buddhism?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: jmbejdl on October 09, 2012, 03:45:18 AM
You never answered my question :-(

Likewise.

Fibonacci,

Is there any chance that you could answer my query as to how you deal with the errors in the Quran, given that it is my understanding (which may be wrong) that Muslims believe it to be the direct word of God?

James

Islam doesn't hold the Koran to be the direct word of God.

This is one of basics of Islamic thought and practice.

I'm going to have to assume that that was a typo and you meant 'does', otherwise you're contradicting everything I've ever heard on the subject, including from Muslim colleagues, but I'd still like to hear Fibonacci's answer. I'm interested in how Muslims actually deal with their text a lot more than I am with how non-Muslims tell me they do.

Quote
Now, most Muslims I've met would argue there are no errors in the Koran.
And yet my initial question would seem to give an indisputable example of an error in the Quran. As does someone else's question slightly further down the page and I'm pretty certain I could find more. It absolutely could be the case that Muslims 'deal' with this by bald-faced denial, but I wouldn't consider that a particularly satisfactory answer, so I'm holding out in hope for a reply from our Muslim friend at some point.

James
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Alpo on October 09, 2012, 03:51:16 AM
Why can't the Abrahamic religions be cool, modern and peaceful like Buddhism?

Because we are less conservative, dogmatic and scholastic than Buddhism.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: akimori makoto on October 09, 2012, 03:53:18 AM
You never answered my question :-(

Likewise.

Fibonacci,

Is there any chance that you could answer my query as to how you deal with the errors in the Quran, given that it is my understanding (which may be wrong) that Muslims believe it to be the direct word of God?

James

Islam doesn't hold the Koran to be the direct word of God.

This is one of basics of Islamic thought and practice.

I'm going to have to assume that that was a typo and you meant 'does', otherwise you're contradicting everything I've ever heard on the subject, including from Muslim colleagues, but I'd still like to hear Fibonacci's answer. I'm interested in how Muslims actually deal with their text a lot more than I am with how non-Muslims tell me they do.

Quote
Now, most Muslims I've met would argue there are no errors in the Koran.
And yet my initial question would seem to give an indisputable example of an error in the Quran. As does someone else's question slightly further down the page and I'm pretty certain I could find more. It absolutely could be the case that Muslims 'deal' with this by bald-faced denial, but I wouldn't consider that a particularly satisfactory answer, so I'm holding out in hope for a reply from our Muslim friend at some point.

James

Perhaps orthonorm means that Muslims allege that their Qur'an was received by Muhammed through the mediation of the Archangel Gabriel?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: akimori makoto on October 09, 2012, 03:54:07 AM
Why can't the Abrahamic religions be cool, modern and peaceful like Buddhism?

Paging Iconodule.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: jmbejdl on October 09, 2012, 03:58:19 AM
You never answered my question :-(

Likewise.

Fibonacci,

Is there any chance that you could answer my query as to how you deal with the errors in the Quran, given that it is my understanding (which may be wrong) that Muslims believe it to be the direct word of God?

James

Islam doesn't hold the Koran to be the direct word of God.

This is one of basics of Islamic thought and practice.

I'm going to have to assume that that was a typo and you meant 'does', otherwise you're contradicting everything I've ever heard on the subject, including from Muslim colleagues, but I'd still like to hear Fibonacci's answer. I'm interested in how Muslims actually deal with their text a lot more than I am with how non-Muslims tell me they do.

Quote
Now, most Muslims I've met would argue there are no errors in the Koran.
And yet my initial question would seem to give an indisputable example of an error in the Quran. As does someone else's question slightly further down the page and I'm pretty certain I could find more. It absolutely could be the case that Muslims 'deal' with this by bald-faced denial, but I wouldn't consider that a particularly satisfactory answer, so I'm holding out in hope for a reply from our Muslim friend at some point.

James

Perhaps orthonorm means that Muslims allege that their Qur'an was received by Muhammed through the mediation of the Archangel Gabriel?

Perhaps, but my understanding is that Gabriel does nothing more than deliver the word of God to Muhammed, which makes it God's direct word just as much as a letter from my brother is his direct word - the postman's mediation has no effect whatsoever on that.

James
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 09, 2012, 05:22:06 AM
From your Koran:

    Blasphemies

[9:30] The Jews said, "Ezra is the son of GOD," while the Christians said, "Jesus is the son of GOD!" These are blasphemies uttered by their mouths. They thus match the blasphemies of those who have disbelieved in the past. GOD condemns them. They have surely deviated.

    Upholding the Teachings of Religious Leaders, Instead of God's Teachings



Where in the world did the jews say Ezra is the son God? Is this how you reject the law of Moses as being allegedly corrupted? This is not true.

I believe that verse was referring to Azariah.  There were jews who confused him with the angel when Azariah did the prayer.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Theophilos78 on October 09, 2012, 05:34:35 AM

I believe that verse was referring to Azariah.  There were jews who confused him with the angel when Azariah did the prayer.

Who was Azariah? Confusing someone with the angel is not equal to saying that Azariah is the son of God.

Which Jews had this tenet? Can you provide historical reference? Thanks
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Theophilos78 on October 09, 2012, 05:48:09 AM

But here's a brief answer, and hopefully it answers other user's questions about trinity:


Firstly, you know Muslims in the future are also going to be followers of Christ as well, so it's not referring exclusively to Christians.  Also there are some Christians after the prophet's time who have rejected trinity.  

This is circular reasoning. CLAIMING that Muslims are going to be Christ's followers in the future does not prove your other CLAIMS about the Trinity.

For example, Issac Newton, who spent his whole life searching for the truth.  He spent a considerable amount of time studying the bible and spirituality, and he eventually reached a point where he secretly rejected trinity.

If someone rejects the Trinity, he/she cannot be a Christian. Is it possible for a Muslim to be a Muslim after denying a core tenet of Islam? Can we say Salman Rushdie is a Muslim who does not believe in the celestial origin of the Qur'an?

One of the things that Christians say that Jesus is the Lord or son of God, is because he's a special divine leader who didn't have a father.  But if that's the case, what would Adam be?  He didn't have a father nor a mother.

This is also one of the blunders of the Quranic author. Christianity does not teach that Jesus became the Son of God because He was born of a virgin mother, but that He was born of a virgin mother because He IS the Son of God. The Gospel of John, for instance, does not refer to Christ's miraculous nativity or Mary's virginity, but right from the start designates Jesus as the Son of God.

As for the analogy drawn between Adam and Jesus in Surah 3, it is false as Adam was not born, but directly created.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 09, 2012, 05:56:54 AM

I believe that verse was referring to Azariah.  There were jews who confused him with the angel when Azariah did the prayer.

Who was Azariah? Confusing someone with the angel is not equal to saying that Azariah is the son of God.

Which Jews had this tenet? Can you provide historical reference? Thanks

It's from the story of young people in the furnace, in the book of Daniels

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadrach,_Meshach,_and_Abednego#Prayer_of_Azariah

The name Azariah came out of nowhere, and they thought that he was an angel... and this angel was ranked as Bene Elohim (sons of God) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_angelic_hierarchy

if you go to book of daniels at 3:25

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/dan/3.25?lang=eng

"He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no ahurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God."
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 09, 2012, 06:14:07 AM
Two quick questions about the possibility of Muslim/non-Muslim friendship.

1. Can faithful Muslims genuinely befriend Christians?

Qur'an 5.51: "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."
(please also compare many similar verses from Qur'an and Hadith here: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/009-friends-with-christians-jews.htm )

Of course we can be genuine friends with Christians.  Why do you think I"m here?

That verse, as I've mentioned a few times before..... is referring to a particular group who are allies of one another.  Specifically, the Edomites. 
Today we see a lot of these groups, like zionists, freemasonary, orange order, ...etc.

Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: jmbejdl on October 09, 2012, 06:24:32 AM

But here's a brief answer, and hopefully it answers other user's questions about trinity:


Firstly, you know Muslims in the future are also going to be followers of Christ as well, so it's not referring exclusively to Christians.  Also there are some Christians after the prophet's time who have rejected trinity.  

For example, Issac Newton, who spent his whole life searching for the truth.  He spent a considerable amount of time studying the bible and spirituality, and he eventually reached a point where he secretly rejected trinity.

One of the things that Christians say that Jesus is the Lord or son of God, is because he's a special divine leader who didn't have a father.  But if that's the case, what would Adam be?  He didn't have a father nor a mother.


I didn't notice this one until just now but if you were hoping that this might address my question  re. the Trinity in the Quran (I'm not sure if anyone else asked a different question about the Trinity), I'd have to say that it doesn't even come close. Your answer appears to be that some so-called Christians have rejected the Trinity, which is certainly true, but is utterly unrelated to my question which was, effectively, 'If the Quran is from God, how do you reconcile that with the fact that it's author either does not know, or misrepresents, what the Trinity is?' I'm not trying to argue Trinitarianism with you, I'm merely asking how it can be possible that God would erroneously claim that the Trinity is God, Jesus and Mary, when this is not what Christians believe at all (and it wasn't at the time of Muhammed either and he certainly was familiar with Christians who did hold to the Trinity). As for your last point, the next Christian I hear say something like that will be the first.

James
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 09, 2012, 06:30:01 AM
My question:  Why is Islam so hell-bent on making life difficult for Christians in some countries which have a majority of Muslims?  (Lets also lay aside the complaint of the conversion of Muslims to Christianity because there is sufficient evidence to the contrary as well.)

The world as a whole is suffering.  A lot of people are suffering spiritually because they're suffering economically.  This is because the global economy is fundamentally flawed, because it's based on usury (riba).

As a result of the financial hardship that people face, they start to resort to tribal thinking.  That is, the group mentality.  Only be fair and kind to people in your group... and rip off people who aren't.

It's unfortunate, and this is the work of the anti-christ (dajjal).  

But on the positive side, there are muslims countries where Christians are living very peacfully

like Iran: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDJEyyrmR4U
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Theophilos78 on October 09, 2012, 06:35:52 AM

It's from the story of young people in the furnace, in the book of Daniels

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadrach,_Meshach,_and_Abednego#Prayer_of_Azariah

The name Azariah came out of nowhere, and they thought that he was an angel... and this angel was ranked as Bene Elohim (sons of God) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_angelic_hierarchy

if you go to book of daniels at 3:25

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/dan/3.25?lang=eng

"He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no ahurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God."


Did you really read that entry in its entirety? Azariah was not an angel, but the Hebrew name of one of the three youths:

Their Hebraic names were Hananiah (חֲנַנְיָה), Mishael (מִישָׁאֵל) and Azariah (עֲזַרְיָה). It was probably by the King’s decree that Chief Official Ashpenaz assigned Chaldean names, so that Hananiah became Shadrach, Mishael became Meshach and Azariah became Abednego. (Daniel 1:7) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadrach,_Meshach,_and_Abednego#Prayer_of_Azariah

Thus, Azariah was not called the Son of God either in the Tanakh or in Judaism.

Any other arguments?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: orthonorm on October 09, 2012, 08:07:59 AM
You never answered my question :-(

Likewise.

Fibonacci,

Is there any chance that you could answer my query as to how you deal with the errors in the Quran, given that it is my understanding (which may be wrong) that Muslims believe it to be the direct word of God?

James

Islam doesn't hold the Koran to be the direct word of God.

This is one of basics of Islamic thought and practice.

I'm going to have to assume that that was a typo and you meant 'does', otherwise you're contradicting everything I've ever heard on the subject, including from Muslim colleagues, but I'd still like to hear Fibonacci's answer. I'm interested in how Muslims actually deal with their text a lot more than I am with how non-Muslims tell me they do.

Quote
Now, most Muslims I've met would argue there are no errors in the Koran.
And yet my initial question would seem to give an indisputable example of an error in the Quran. As does someone else's question slightly further down the page and I'm pretty certain I could find more. It absolutely could be the case that Muslims 'deal' with this by bald-faced denial, but I wouldn't consider that a particularly satisfactory answer, so I'm holding out in hope for a reply from our Muslim friend at some point.

James

Perhaps orthonorm means that Muslims allege that their Qur'an was received by Muhammed through the mediation of the Archangel Gabriel?

Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: jmbejdl on October 09, 2012, 08:21:11 AM
You never answered my question :-(

Likewise.

Fibonacci,

Is there any chance that you could answer my query as to how you deal with the errors in the Quran, given that it is my understanding (which may be wrong) that Muslims believe it to be the direct word of God?

James

Islam doesn't hold the Koran to be the direct word of God.

This is one of basics of Islamic thought and practice.

I'm going to have to assume that that was a typo and you meant 'does', otherwise you're contradicting everything I've ever heard on the subject, including from Muslim colleagues, but I'd still like to hear Fibonacci's answer. I'm interested in how Muslims actually deal with their text a lot more than I am with how non-Muslims tell me they do.

Quote
Now, most Muslims I've met would argue there are no errors in the Koran.
And yet my initial question would seem to give an indisputable example of an error in the Quran. As does someone else's question slightly further down the page and I'm pretty certain I could find more. It absolutely could be the case that Muslims 'deal' with this by bald-faced denial, but I wouldn't consider that a particularly satisfactory answer, so I'm holding out in hope for a reply from our Muslim friend at some point.

James

Perhaps orthonorm means that Muslims allege that their Qur'an was received by Muhammed through the mediation of the Archangel Gabriel?



So do you agree with what I wrote earlier in response to this then, or are you contending that the method by which the message is delivered alters its content?

James
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: orthonorm on October 09, 2012, 08:28:23 AM
You never answered my question :-(

Likewise.

Fibonacci,

Is there any chance that you could answer my query as to how you deal with the errors in the Quran, given that it is my understanding (which may be wrong) that Muslims believe it to be the direct word of God?

James

Islam doesn't hold the Koran to be the direct word of God.

This is one of basics of Islamic thought and practice.

I'm going to have to assume that that was a typo and you meant 'does', otherwise you're contradicting everything I've ever heard on the subject, including from Muslim colleagues, but I'd still like to hear Fibonacci's answer. I'm interested in how Muslims actually deal with their text a lot more than I am with how non-Muslims tell me they do.

Quote
Now, most Muslims I've met would argue there are no errors in the Koran.
And yet my initial question would seem to give an indisputable example of an error in the Quran. As does someone else's question slightly further down the page and I'm pretty certain I could find more. It absolutely could be the case that Muslims 'deal' with this by bald-faced denial, but I wouldn't consider that a particularly satisfactory answer, so I'm holding out in hope for a reply from our Muslim friend at some point.

James

Perhaps orthonorm means that Muslims allege that their Qur'an was received by Muhammed through the mediation of the Archangel Gabriel?



So do you agree with what I wrote earlier in response to this then, or are you contending that the method by which the message is delivered alters its content?

James

There is no separating a message from its "method of delivery".
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: jmbejdl on October 09, 2012, 08:41:43 AM
You never answered my question :-(

Likewise.

Fibonacci,

Is there any chance that you could answer my query as to how you deal with the errors in the Quran, given that it is my understanding (which may be wrong) that Muslims believe it to be the direct word of God?

James

Islam doesn't hold the Koran to be the direct word of God.

This is one of basics of Islamic thought and practice.

I'm going to have to assume that that was a typo and you meant 'does', otherwise you're contradicting everything I've ever heard on the subject, including from Muslim colleagues, but I'd still like to hear Fibonacci's answer. I'm interested in how Muslims actually deal with their text a lot more than I am with how non-Muslims tell me they do.

Quote
Now, most Muslims I've met would argue there are no errors in the Koran.
And yet my initial question would seem to give an indisputable example of an error in the Quran. As does someone else's question slightly further down the page and I'm pretty certain I could find more. It absolutely could be the case that Muslims 'deal' with this by bald-faced denial, but I wouldn't consider that a particularly satisfactory answer, so I'm holding out in hope for a reply from our Muslim friend at some point.

James

Perhaps orthonorm means that Muslims allege that their Qur'an was received by Muhammed through the mediation of the Archangel Gabriel?



So do you agree with what I wrote earlier in response to this then, or are you contending that the method by which the message is delivered alters its content?

James

There is no separating a message from its "method of delivery".
The contention I have heard from Muslims in the past is that the Quran is the actual word of God delivered to Muhammed by Gabriel. In this case the author of it is God and Gabriel is acting as a sort of cosmic postman. They certainly do not belief that the author is, wholly or in part, either Gabriel or Muhammed. Assuming this is in fact a normative belief in Islam (and I've heard nothing yet to the contrary), I would like to know how a Muslim like Fibonacci deals with the obvious errors in the text.

Your attempt at philosophising, unfortunately, adds absolutely nothing to the discussion at hand (and having studied philosophy at university, albeit a decade and a half ago, I'm disinclined to roll over in awe at it). Do you have a serious point or are you just trying to convince me of how clever you are?

James
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: orthonorm on October 09, 2012, 12:52:55 PM
Do you have a serious point or are you just trying to convince me of how clever you are?

James

No just how naive you are. And I guess since you studied philosophy how misinformed you are.

Enjoy your polemics dressed in "questions".

Oh and on the "philosophy" business, how much Islamic philosophy have you read? You are begging the question throughout your "questions". There is a quite a long and varied discussion throughout Islam on the status of the Koran. How much have you read about that discussion? Again if you are looking for what pollsters are likely to reveal about beliefs are held among Muslims, google, not Fibonacci, is your friend.

If you already know what is "normative" among Muslims or can easily find such information, why are you asking Fibonacci the questions you are?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: HabteSelassie on October 09, 2012, 02:23:03 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Why can't the Abrahamic religions be cool, modern and peaceful like Buddhism?

You mean like those folks who are trying to assassinate the Dalai Lama because he isn't Buddhist enough?  ALL religions are peaceful, its the followers who get tripped up from time to time.  Conversely, there is a minority of ALL humans who are just inherently violent, and these tend to hijack the narrative because fecal matter stinks worse than roses smell lovely, and one piece of turd in the Garden will ruin the entire setting!  So be it Christians in America who murder abortion doctors, or be it radicalized Jihadist who blow up coffee shops with soldiers inside, , or be it radical ultra-Orthodox Jews who spit on women for wearing short sleeves in public, my point is there are bad folks everywhere, we can't let them define the norm simply because they can yell the loudest.


stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: lord doog on October 09, 2012, 02:25:34 PM
1. Do Muslims believe in abrogation of the Qur'an?
2. Why is chess forbidden in Islam? (http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=028&translator=2&start=0&number=5612#5612)

1.  Yes, latter rules in the Qur'an replace initial rules.  The initial rules were there to ease the early muslims into the religion.

For example on alcohol, it initially says that they lead you to sin, then another verse talks about avoiding drunkiness, and finally a verse came out for the out right ban of it.

2.  Chess is allowed so long as you treat it as a mental exercise, and you don't become obsessed with it, to the point where it affects your emotions (anger, hubris,...etc.). 

It's the same thing with sports.  Playing it to improve your health and/or communication/team skills is not a problem.  It becomes a problem when someone becomes obsessed with it and treats it as a religion.  Today unfortunately, many young muslims are way too obsessed about professional football.  They worship it like it's a God.  They know all sorts of facts about football starts, their style of play and their private lives... but have no clue how the economy works and how usury is harming society.

1. Since the latter verses are more relevent than the earlier verses, why bother keeping the older verses at all? They are now outdated and irrelevent and, from my very limited understanding, can contradict the later verses which are now binding. That brings me to another question: How can Muslims consider Islam to be a perfect religion and the Qur'an a perfect book if it invalidates it's earlier half by abrogation?
 
2. How do you know this when the hadith does not give any conditions on playing the game? It says cursed is the one who plays chess, not the one who plays it excessively.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Alpo on October 09, 2012, 02:39:22 PM
There is a quite a long and varied discussion throughout Islam on the status of the Koran.

Even today? I thought they have pretty much settled to the "pre-existent, uncreated word of God" thing more than thousand years ago.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Iconodule on October 09, 2012, 02:47:28 PM
Why can't the Abrahamic religions be cool, modern and peaceful like Buddhism?

(http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/wp-content/uploads/Zen-at-War.jpg)

Quote
[Of those in] the band of enemies, who have despoiled the duties entrusted to them:
Make the male lines like trees that have had their roots cut;
Make the female lines like brooks that have dried up in winter,
Make the children and grandchildren like eggs smashed against cliffs,
Make the servants and followers like heaps of grass consumed by fire,
Make their dominion like a lamp whose oil has been exhausted,
In short, annihilate any traces of them, even their names.
- The Fifth Dalai Lama
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Nephi on October 09, 2012, 02:52:48 PM
There is a quite a long and varied discussion throughout Islam on the status of the Koran.

Even today? I thought they have pretty much settled to the "pre-existent, uncreated word of God" thing more than thousand years ago.

That was my impression as well considering the development of the use of colored diacritics (to differentiate between the original divine text, and the human-made diacritics), parallel dual-language (with Arabic always more prominent over the "interpretation") translations, and a system of how Muslims/non-Muslims are to handle them (with non-Muslims, for example, touching the outer covers and not the text itself).
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: orthonorm on October 09, 2012, 03:40:52 PM
There is a quite a long and varied discussion throughout Islam on the status of the Koran.

Even today? I thought they have pretty much settled to the "pre-existent, uncreated word of God" thing more than thousand years ago.

They?

You know to speak of anything which has the length of history as Islam does and exists in such a widespread and disparate manner as Islam does as something monolithic is sorta myopic.

No. Whether the Koran was created or uncreated remains up for debate and what sorta hermeneutics would be required for a creature like Gabriel much less Mohamed to understand such a message either created or uncreated by Allah is also not settled.

Like most Christians (read the posts of ostensibly "educated" and "informed" Christians on this site), Muslims for the most part are absolutely unaware of the real and interesting problems their history of belief presents. Around here, "mystery" is the answer to the tough and interesting questions, if and when they ever get posed.

If you want to get into an interesting discussion rather than what is becoming of this thread, ask, whether it was created or uncreated, how is a created being capable of understanding the language of God.

Keep in mind, it is not settled whether THE Koran is in Arabic (I think most thoughtful Muslim thinkers would suggest not, but I only read around this issue for a few months so take this with a grain of salt).

Heck, if your Muslim friend thinks the Koran is some book, you already know they are poorly informed about the basics of their own religion.

Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: orthonorm on October 09, 2012, 03:48:00 PM
There is a quite a long and varied discussion throughout Islam on the status of the Koran.

Even today? I thought they have pretty much settled to the "pre-existent, uncreated word of God" thing more than thousand years ago.

That was my impression as well considering the development of the use of colored diacritics (to differentiate between the original divine text, and the human-made diacritics), parallel dual-language (with Arabic always more prominent over the "interpretation") translations, and a system of how Muslims/non-Muslims are to handle them (with non-Muslims, for example, touching the outer covers and not the text itself).

Again it depends on what you mean by "settled". What the Pew Research institute is likely to find to today in a poll, or what productive thinkers long past, past, not so past, and present deal with.

Then again, this is like asking whether your typical Orthodox Christian can give a decent account of the Trinity or much of anything.

I would suggest not.

Thankfully, I don't think any of this stuff is that important. Well at least not to get by as your typical Christian needs to or Muslim.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: orthonorm on October 09, 2012, 03:56:09 PM
1. Do Muslims believe in abrogation of the Qur'an?
2. Why is chess forbidden in Islam? (http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=028&translator=2&start=0&number=5612#5612)

1.  Yes, latter rules in the Qur'an replace initial rules.  The initial rules were there to ease the early muslims into the religion.

For example on alcohol, it initially says that they lead you to sin, then another verse talks about avoiding drunkiness, and finally a verse came out for the out right ban of it.

2.  Chess is allowed so long as you treat it as a mental exercise, and you don't become obsessed with it, to the point where it affects your emotions (anger, hubris,...etc.).  

It's the same thing with sports.  Playing it to improve your health and/or communication/team skills is not a problem.  It becomes a problem when someone becomes obsessed with it and treats it as a religion.  Today unfortunately, many young muslims are way too obsessed about professional football.  They worship it like it's a God.  They know all sorts of facts about football starts, their style of play and their private lives... but have no clue how the economy works and how usury is harming society.

1. Since the latter verses are more relevent than the earlier verses, why bother keeping the older verses at all? They are now outdated and irrelevent and, from my very limited understanding, can contradict the later verses which are now binding. That brings me to another question: How can Muslims consider Islam to be a perfect religion and the Qur'an a perfect book if it invalidates it's earlier half by abrogation?
 
2. How do you know this when the hadith does not give any conditions on playing the game? It says cursed is the one who plays chess, not the one who plays it excessively.

1. How is abrogation invalidation in any sense? Have you spent much time reading about how some Muslims use the Koran as a message to converts? The rule on drinking for instance. Some Muslims would suggest that movement of the Koran on the role alcohol should be followed by the convert. The realization the alcohol is a problem. Then practice the avoidance of drunkenness. Then the struggle for abstinence.

This is a trivial view of how so called "abrogated" verses remain important. I am sure if you applied yourself, you could easily think of some more. Forget answering the question about how abrogation is not invalidation. Just work on some of the more easily understood aspects of the text.

2. Extra-Koranic materials are argued over in terms of whether they are binding and if so to what degree they are and have commentary upon commentary upon them, especially if they are throughout most of Islam's history found to be important and worthy of attention.

Again, I doubt the information I am giving here is that hard to find or simply "come to" with a bit of thinking, thus my wondering about the rhetorical nature of your questions as well.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Alpo on October 09, 2012, 04:14:30 PM
Well of course everything is different on the grassroot level but IIRC there was some major debate during early centuries of Islam about whether Koran was created or not and that the non-created party got their view settled. Are there any major modern Muslim scholar of Islam who claims that Koran is created?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: orthonorm on October 09, 2012, 04:35:00 PM
Well of course everything is different on the grassroot level but IIRC there was some major debate during early centuries of Islam about whether Koran was created or not and that the non-created party got their view settled. Are there any major modern Muslim scholar of Islam who claims that Koran is created?

I'll see if I can find any references. Like I said I only read around the issue for a few months. I have one text left probably, but it has a decent bibliography, IIRC.

EDIT: FWIW, I would admit that most "Muslims" would probably answer uncreated and suggest that those who think the Koran to be created are not true Muslims, much the way folks around here defend their own view within Christianity. The Islamic teacher I lived with was emphatically of the view it was uncreated and rejected all current thinkers who hold it to be created, which are typically "Sufis". Also, FWIW, most Muslims are going to tell you Sufism ain't Islam. As I said, Muslim theology is a very complicated subject and one almost no Western actually or Muslim for that matter concerns themselves with outside RCs whose own theology was given to them by Islam.

//;=) Papist.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Nicene on October 09, 2012, 11:30:54 PM

Please forgive me for my misunderstanding...  I thought you were talking about something else (christ vs anti-christ conflict).

I think you're referring to surah 30 verse 2?

Am I correct?  In that case... yes I fully agree with you that... this verse is not referring to the western roman empire.  It was a very bad translation..... and it's referring to the  Byzantine Roman Empire... and yes the Orthodox Christians.

Have you seen my other thread?  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,45203.0.html

One day, Constantinople is going to be returned to the orthodox Christians.

An answer I didn't expect, but an answer that I think might have troubling implications for you. If its referring to the orthodox as the true followers of Christ, BTW it should be pointed out the East and west at this time were the one church, then you have a problem that a group that calls Christ God is the true successors of the apostles?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 10, 2012, 12:35:19 AM
reader pay attention.

 those that fight against heretical ruling structure, are they fighting for religious freedom? for instance democracy as a rule of the people , can it be interprated as heresy thereby those who fight it are fighting for religious freedom which can only be realised for them when the supreme law of the land becomes Allah's law?

I agree with you that true muslims do not believe in a heretical ruling structure.and that they will fight on the behalf of the community to prevent the ideology deemed heretical from taking over. they are justified nay obligated to do so.

btw, the sufi flavor makes your explanations much more palatable , I am sure you know. :)

Well, yes, when you're fighting heretical structure.......... you're fighting for freedom of everything.  That's what Hussein was doing... fighting the monarchy that was forcing him to pledge allegiance to.

From what I've studied, I'm certain that Islamic laws (or any religious laws for that matter) should really be implemented at the community level, not a the national level.  Those who want to live a certain way can join the community that best matches their belief. And 'Islamic' nations, should really be free republics not democracies, monarchies, dictatorships, ...etc.

Note that, before the prophet died he never explicitly said who should lead the Muslim nation as a whole.  Because it's not suppose to be hierarchical.  You can reach God by yourself, you don't need to go to a religious leader and ask them to talk to God on your behalf.

Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 10, 2012, 01:06:52 AM

Koran could be refering to some eccentric form of Judaism. Or Christianity for that matter when it's talking about Trinity. Who knows what might have been out there during that time considering that even today World is filled with crazy religions.

Not possible because the verse talks about the Jews in general rather than about some unknown group of the Jews.

A case can be made that since Muhammed didn't know all of the Jews of the World and their various religious views "the Jews" refers to those jews he was aware of. He was (IIRC) just a illiterate salesman and not well versed in comparative religion.

But Muhammed isn't supposed to be the author of the Koran. God is. If there are entirely human errors in the Koran, which was my point, as you suggest then you're agreeing with what Theophilos and I were talking about in the first place re. the misunderstandings of the Trinity and Judaism. I'd really like to see Fibonacci's answer to our posts as I'd like to understand how Muslims deal with this - to me it's the smoking gun that says that the Koran is not the direct word of God. So how do Muslims reconcile the details of the text with their beliefs as to the origin of the text? Or do some Muslims have a different view of the Koran, one where Muhammed is inspired rather than dictated to?

James

Firstly about the revelations of the quran...

the prophet would get an epileptic seizure....... then when it stops, he would get up, and start talking in a different tone
starting with 'In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful'

this was sign for his companion, that the prophet is about to give out revelation from God, sent to him by Gabriel.... (ie.  telling his companions to get out there 'pen and paper')

then he would give out the verse in a poetic fashion, most often the content of the verse was something relevant to what his companions were discussing or asking him

So a lot of people were paying close attention to it, and memorized the message the prophet was delivering.  They recorded it all on paper.  Then they analyzed all these notes and cross-referenced with people's memories, and made the one quranic text for Muslims to use.


About trinity, the overall message that God is delivering... is that there is only one God.  He doesn't have a son, and He doesn't have human/spiritual manifestations, like coming on earth as a human or as a holy ghost.  It was just saying that the Messiah was a prophet, not a God.   If you don't agree with that, than that's your belief.  

Furthermore, it's important to study the origins of Trinity at a deeper level.  Because undoubtedly, the Messiah never explicitly mentioned that he's God.  For example, when he was being crucified, he said 'My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?'.  If he's God, why would he say something like that?

Secondly, some Christians say he's God because he could do miracles.  But Moses could do miracles aswell.
Others say it's because he didn't have a human father.  But Adam was created without a human mother nor a human father.





Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Nicene on October 10, 2012, 01:11:10 AM
We say he is God because he did things only God could do, claimed things only God could do and the like.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 10, 2012, 01:14:36 AM
Who decides a verse must be interpreted literally or figuratively and why?

These verses are interpreted after studying the topic at a closer level.  If it's talking about Jesus, then one will have to study the bible, and history... and then based on intuition, they would make a decision on whether the message is literal or figurative.

Remember what I said earlier

intuition when you're pious and in a clean environment = God talking to you
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Cognomen on October 10, 2012, 01:15:40 AM
 Because undoubtedly, the Messiah never explicitly mentioned that he's God.  For example, when he was being crucified, he said 'My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?'.  If he's God, why would he say something like that?

Cheers, Fibonacci. 

Just as a reply (this one used to get me too), that quote you mentioned is the opening line of Psalm 21 (22 in the West) (http://www.bartleby.com/108/19/22.html).  Orthodox tradition holds that Christ was reciting the psalms during his crucifixion. This particular psalm is said to, among other things, predict the Messiah and events leading up to His crucifixion.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: ZealousZeal on October 10, 2012, 01:24:52 AM
Furthermore, it's important to study the origins of Trinity at a deeper level.  Because undoubtedly, the Messiah never explicitly mentioned that he's God.  For example, when he was being crucified, he said 'My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?'.  If he's God, why would he say something like that?

It was always my understanding that he was quoting Psalm 22, which starts with "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?", then goes on to say:


16 For dogs have surrounded Me;
The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
They pierced My hands and My feet;
17 I can count all My bones.
They look and stare at Me.
18 They divide My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.


I was taught that in Protestantism, so I don't know if that's the same understanding as the Orthodox have (and there's certainly more you could argue), but I find it interesting.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: ZealousZeal on October 10, 2012, 01:25:45 AM
Ah, well. Cognomen beat me while I was typing and answered my question as well. :)
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: dzheremi on October 10, 2012, 01:26:41 AM
About trinity, the overall message that God is delivering... is that there is only one God.

Muhammad's god was only giving out an "overall message", so it doesn't matter if he gets the details wrong? ??? What kind of god is this? In the Holy Bible, God gave Moses precise instructions on how to build a giant boat and save all the animals on the earth with it, and gives us exact words to pray (the 'Our Father'), and exact, authoritative expositions of the law from His own mouth (Matthew 5:21 forward), but the Qur'an completely fudges the basics of a central piece of Christian theology and we're supposed to say "well, overall it's not about that, so it's okay"? When did god get so lazy about things that, being god, he shouldn't have any trouble understanding and representing properly, even if they are wrong? I mean, right or wrong, God is supposed to know what we actually believe, right? (Isn't this a part of Islam, too?)

I'm sorry, but I don't understand how this is any kind of explanation.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 10, 2012, 01:27:18 AM

Please don't take this wrong way, but I don't think you can combine these two distinct verses to make a conclusion like that.

But let's say you have a point.....so did you read what it says in Surah 4:76?  For a true believer, the tricks of satan are weak.

Now read the rest of Surah 12.... what happened to the woman when they saw the shirt being ripped from behind?  Did her 'mighty trick' work?


Your answer is irrelevant to my question.

I only want to know how some women's tricks are strong whilst Satan's tricks are weak. Why this contrast?

Theophilos the first verse is a direct message
the other is just a narration of the husband

I don't understand the point you're trying to make.  In any case, if the semantics of these verses is really bothering you, I suggest you speak with an expert in Arabic linguistics.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 10, 2012, 01:35:22 AM
About trinity, the overall message that God is delivering... is that there is only one God.

Muhammad's god was only giving out an "overall message", so it doesn't matter if he gets the details wrong? ??? What kind of god is this? In the Holy Bible, God gave Moses precise instructions on how to build a giant boat and save all the animals on the earth with it, and gives us exact words to pray (the 'Our Father'), and exact, authoritative expositions of the law from His own mouth (Matthew 5:21 forward), but the Qur'an completely fudges the basics of a central piece of Christian theology and we're supposed to say "well, overall it's not about that, so it's okay"? When did god get so lazy about things that, being god, he shouldn't have any trouble understanding and representing properly, even if they are wrong? I mean, right or wrong, God is supposed to know what we actually believe, right? (Isn't this a part of Islam, too?)

I'm sorry, but I don't understand how this is any kind of explanation.

You mean Noah?

When I said overall message...

I'm talking about how there were a few verses regarding Christ and tirinity... and in all cases, it was saying that the Messiah is a prophet, and God is one with no partners.

When I respond to these questions, I assume you can quickly see the whole picture.  But I understand that some users here are left brainers... and semantics is very important to them.  As a result, I suggest you take your time reading the Quran, and try to interpret the verses and compare it with your knowledge of Christianity.  Then we can discuss the meanings of these verses at a greater depth.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: dzheremi on October 10, 2012, 01:47:53 AM
You mean Noah?

Oops. Yes. Typing too fast. Sorry. Noah, certainly. If Moses had an ark, I don't know about it. :)

Quote
I suggest you take your time reading the Quran, and try to interpret the verses and compare it with your knowledge of Christianity.  Then we can discuss the meanings of these verses at a greater depth.

A fine suggestion, were it not for the fact that I have already done that with an eye toward these verses in particular, and had those same discussions with other Muslims in the past. But if you have some sort of revolutionary understanding that somehow makes the Qur'an not wrong (like the last guy who told me what it "really" means in those verses), then by all means, please share with all of us.

I have yet to hear or read any explanation of them that does not simply fall back on Islamic talking points about God having no consort, Christians being associators, etc. These are not really answers any more than if this thread were reversed and we answered all of your questions with "Muslims are blasphemers" and "The Qur'an is not from God because it contradicts the Bible" or whatever, which would not really be very enlightening, whether anyone in particular finds them true statements or not.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 10, 2012, 02:02:14 AM
What is the relationship between mainstream Islam and the more non-conventional forms of Islam like the Nation of Islam or the Five Percent Nation which are popular among impoverished Black folks in urban areas? Are they considered real Muslims or are they considered a weird offshoot, like the weird Evangelical Christian Churches that sometimes open up?

It's a weird offshoot.  However, I've read that many of their members later converted to Islam.  Like Mohammed Ali who converted to sufi islam and Malcom X converted to sunni islam.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Alpo on October 10, 2012, 02:12:53 AM
fibonacci, I still would like to hear your perspective on this:

What's the relationship between Islam and Jews? I've understood that Islam has more negative view of Jews than of Christians. Am I correct? Why is that?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: JamesR on October 10, 2012, 04:05:38 AM
Well I'll be damned, it looks like those history textbooks that schools teach to us are false. In 7th grade when we learned about the rise of Islam the book said that Muhammed directly wrote the Qur'an in the cave by himself right after having the visions from Gabriel, and that he did not have several visions throughout his life but that he had all of the visions at once while in a cave and that the Qur'an was already written and finished by the time his visions stopped.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Kerdy on October 10, 2012, 04:14:03 AM
Well I'll be damned, it looks like those history textbooks that schools teach to us are false. In 7th grade when we learned about the rise of Islam the book said that Muhammed directly wrote the Qur'an in the cave by himself right after having the visions from Gabriel, and that he did not have several visions throughout his life but that he had all of the visions at once while in a cave and that the Qur'an was already written and finished by the time his visions stopped.
You will find a lot of text books are filled with flaws.  Public education is in a downward spiral.  The same thing happened to me in college with a history book.  I asked the professor why we had an inaccurate text book to which I was asked how it was inaccurate.  I explained, she rebutted and I supplied historical facts to back up my observation.  She finally said its up to someone else to screen the text books and we moved on.  That actually happened a lot in that class.  I hope they got that book out of the school.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: jmbejdl on October 10, 2012, 04:34:43 AM
Do you have a serious point or are you just trying to convince me of how clever you are?

James

No just how naive you are. And I guess since you studied philosophy how misinformed you are.

Enjoy your polemics dressed in "questions".

Oh and on the "philosophy" business, how much Islamic philosophy have you read? You are begging the question throughout your "questions". There is a quite a long and varied discussion throughout Islam on the status of the Koran. How much have you read about that discussion? Again if you are looking for what pollsters are likely to reveal about beliefs are held among Muslims, google, not Fibonacci, is your friend.

If you already know what is "normative" among Muslims or can easily find such information, why are you asking Fibonacci the questions you are?

I originally asked a reasonably open question, which Fibonacci failed to answer, because I was interested in how Shia Muslims might or might not differ in this. Only after receiving no answer at all did I start to fill in the details that I had previously heard from other Muslims, all of whom have been Sunni. I have never had any opportunity to discuss anything much with a Shia before and so, whilst I know what I have been told is normative by Sunnis, I'm trying to find out if the same is true of Shias. I'm not interested in polls I'm interested in how he deals with his text. Yes, I think he's wrong (clearly as I'm Orthodox) but had he lived up to his invitation in the opening post I would never have had any need to inject my previous understandings as a goad to get a response. Whatever you may think it was not intended as polemics from the outset. Unfortunately when I see someone repeatedly dodging the question I do have tendency to pile it on - this is undoubtedly a failing of mine.

I'll quite happily admit to having read no Islamic philosophy. It wasn't required at university and I had no interest in it, but every Muslim (again, all Sunni) I've spoken to in the past has told me what I previously related was true and that anyone who disagreed was not really Muslim (as you yourself have noted is common). I wondered if Shia then had a different interpretation or if they too seemed to selectively ignore the very existence of inconvenient details that would seem contradict such a view. I see from this single interaction (unrepresentative though a single view is) that they appear not to differ from the Sunnis in this regard.

Now it may be that in all cases, what I have been told is down to Muslims being badly informed of their own faith. Certainly if I were to pick a similar number of Christians and ask them to explain some central article of faith I'm likely to get a high proportion, quite possible 100%, of misleading or plain incorrect answers. I'd say that they are unlikely to be anything like as uniform as this, but it's not impossible, but if you have anything useful to contribute it would be in pointing out evidence in contradiction of my understandings not in waxing philosophical about the relationship between messages and their delivery.

James
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Theophilos78 on October 10, 2012, 05:52:35 AM


So a lot of people were paying close attention to it, and memorized the message the prophet was delivering.  They recorded it all on paper.  Then they analyzed all these notes and cross-referenced with people's memories, and made the one quranic text for Muslims to use.

Where are the papers those indefinite people allegedly recorded the Qur'an verses on? May I have a look at them in order to make a comparison between the first raw version of the Qur'an and the later version revised by Uthman?

About trinity, the overall message that God is delivering... is that there is only one God.  

Trinity is also one God. God IS three persons. I must remind you that before the migration your prophet designated Christians as monotheists. However, things changed after the migration and he started to accuse all religious communities (Jews and Christians alike) of associating partners with God.


He doesn't have a son, and He doesn't have human/spiritual manifestations, like coming on earth as a human or as a holy ghost.  It was just saying that the Messiah was a prophet, not a God.   If you don't agree with that, than that's your belief.  

We do not say that Messiah was a god. We say He IS THE God, inseparable in essence from the Father.

Is it not surprising to you that until Muhammad's time NO Christian sect - either canonical/orthodox or heretical - taught that Jesus was but a messenger. Even groups who denied Jesus' divinity did not identify Him as a mere messenger.

Furthermore, it's important to study the origins of Trinity at a deeper level.  Because undoubtedly, the Messiah never explicitly mentioned that he's God.  

This proves that you have never read the Gospel. Jesus said "Before Abraham was made, I AM". "My Father and I are ONE". Thus, He explicitly stated His divinity. He also did not rebuke Thomas, who said to Him: "My Lord and my God!". He rather considered this a statement of faith.

Besides, the author of the Qur'an identified Jesus as the Messiah, but Jesus never calls Himself the Messiah in the Qur'an. Do we have to approach this doctrine with doubt because of that?  ::)


For example, when he was being crucified, he said 'My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?'.  If he's God, why would he say something like that?

Because He's both God and man. He took human nature and became a perfect man. Additionally, He recited the opening verse of a Messianic Psalm when He said: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Secondly, some Christians say he's God because he could do miracles.  But Moses could do miracles aswell.

I have never come across such Christians in my life. This sounds like an Islamic argument.

Others say it's because he didn't have a human father.  But Adam was created without a human mother nor a human father.

By others you mean the writer of the Qur'an? As I said before, Christianity does not teach that Jesus is God because He was born without a father.

Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Theophilos78 on October 10, 2012, 05:58:31 AM

These verses are interpreted after studying the topic at a closer level. 

Again, who decides which topics must be studied at a closer level and why?

If it's talking about Jesus, then one will have to study the bible, and history...

Why the need to study the Bible when you have the Qur'an? Is it not sufficient for you? Don't you have historical data in the Qur'an?

and then based on intuition, they would make a decision on whether the message is literal or figurative.

So there is no system, everything is arbitrary. Like the way the chapters of the Qur'an are named.


Remember what I said earlier

intuition when you're pious and in a clean environment = God talking to you

This is also subjective.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Theophilos78 on October 10, 2012, 06:02:52 AM

Theophilos the first verse is a direct message
the other is just a narration of the husband

I know.  :)
I don't understand the point you're trying to make.  In any case, if the semantics of these verses is really bothering you, I suggest you speak with an expert in Arabic linguistics.

I only wonder if what Al-Aziz said was accurate or not. Why did he say such a thing? After seeing the statement in Surah 4:76, can Muslims say now that Al-Aziz made a false statement and slandered women? Was he a misogynist character?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Αριστοκλής on October 10, 2012, 07:38:02 AM

From what I've studied, I'm certain that Islamic laws (or any religious laws for that matter) should really be implemented at the community level, not a the national level.  Those who want to live a certain way can join the community that best matches their belief. And 'Islamic' nations, should really be free republics not democracies, monarchies, dictatorships, ...etc.

My friend, this is almost, if not exactly, what the Muslim Brotherhood's "Project" is using in order to incrementally establish Sharia in the west and in the USA. It is working in Britain; it will not be done in America.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 10, 2012, 04:20:16 PM

From what I've studied, I'm certain that Islamic laws (or any religious laws for that matter) should really be implemented at the community level, not a the national level.  Those who want to live a certain way can join the community that best matches their belief. And 'Islamic' nations, should really be free republics not democracies, monarchies, dictatorships, ...etc.

My friend, this is almost, if not exactly, what the Muslim Brotherhood's "Project" is using in order to incrementally establish Sharia in the west and in the USA. It is working in Britain; it will not be done in America.

I don't think so... the Muslim Brotherhood, first of all they want to establish sharia at the national level. We can all see it in Egypt.

Now I on the other hand, said community level... like at a municipal level.  Each town will have their own set of moral laws that the citizen should abide by.  If someone does not wish to live under those rules, then they can move to a community that best matches their belief. Do you see the difference? 
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: orthonorm on October 10, 2012, 04:36:42 PM

From what I've studied, I'm certain that Islamic laws (or any religious laws for that matter) should really be implemented at the community level, not a the national level.  Those who want to live a certain way can join the community that best matches their belief. And 'Islamic' nations, should really be free republics not democracies, monarchies, dictatorships, ...etc.

My friend, this is almost, if not exactly, what the Muslim Brotherhood's "Project" is using in order to incrementally establish Sharia in the west and in the USA. It is working in Britain; it will not be done in America.

I don't think so... the Muslim Brotherhood, first of all they want to establish sharia at the national level. We can all see it in Egypt.

Now I on the other hand, said community level... like at a municipal level.  Each town will have their own set of moral laws that the citizen should abide by.  If someone does not wish to live under those rules, then they can move to a community that best matches their belief. Do you see the difference?  

A difference sure. But to aristocracy's point, this ain't happening in America*. Folks can submit should they wish to some extra-legal arbitration and play out their Shariah LARP all they want. But again, this sorta nonsense will have the legal legitimacy a fatwa against provocatively dressed women issued by hamrunt. Which is fine cause most of Shariah law as I understand it (which is not that well) hardly approaches anything requiring juridical involvement.

If the Catholic Church refuses to recognize a civil divorce, that is their choice as long as they don't interfere with the civil guarantees and limitations granted or imposed on either party in such a divorce.

Perhaps the grand legal minds of oc.net: podcast and icky more can weigh in.

*Outside the degree to which precedent has been already set for the need to incorporate international law into US judicial rulings.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Shiny on October 10, 2012, 04:38:59 PM
I come back from vacation only to see this thread gets up to 278 replies, wowza.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Αριστοκλής on October 10, 2012, 05:07:36 PM

From what I've studied, I'm certain that Islamic laws (or any religious laws for that matter) should really be implemented at the community level, not a the national level.  Those who want to live a certain way can join the community that best matches their belief. And 'Islamic' nations, should really be free republics not democracies, monarchies, dictatorships, ...etc.

My friend, this is almost, if not exactly, what the Muslim Brotherhood's "Project" is using in order to incrementally establish Sharia in the west and in the USA. It is working in Britain; it will not be done in America.

I don't think so... the Muslim Brotherhood, first of all they want to establish sharia at the national level. We can all see it in Egypt.

Now I on the other hand, said community level... like at a municipal level.  Each town will have their own set of moral laws that the citizen should abide by.  If someone does not wish to live under those rules, then they can move to a community that best matches their belief. Do you see the difference? 

Actually, establishing Sharia at the local level is but part of their strategy to impose it nationally. Hence this is no difference to perceive.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 10, 2012, 06:01:18 PM
Actually, establishing Sharia at the local level is but part of their strategy to impose it nationally. Hence this is no difference to perceive.

How can they establish sharia in communities that are not Muslim?  Or even in Muslim communities that don't accept the sharia of the salafi school?  There will always be differences.

Remember what I said, real Muslims are against hierarchical structure.  Communities need to be strong enough to not allow outsiders to come in and manipulate their laws.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 10, 2012, 06:52:51 PM
What if all the sects of Islam follow the same corrupted and incomplete version of the Qur'an?  ;D
Would the agreement to use the same text change the fact that the text is no more perfect and original?

Well this is a matter of faith.  Muslims agree with the truths/wisdom in the quran, and hence they accept that the messages are of divine orign.

So when they see this verse http://quran.com/39/28

they accept it, and hence say there is no corruption in the Qur'an.

We'll just have to wait until Imam Mahdi returns to notify us if there has been any corruption.  Just like Jesus will come back and notify us if there has been any corruption in the recording of his message.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 10, 2012, 08:07:45 PM
I mean no offense to you in this, but you are making assumptions on my thinking and understanding if you are under the impression that I do not find "lessons" in history, but only facts.  Sometimes it may be the case that a "lesson" might be drawn that is not, in fact, based on real situations or facts.

A case in point: as a Muslim you esteem the Quran and claimed that "the original" has been preserved in totality but that this is not the case for either the Jewish or Christian scriptures.  This seemed to have the meaning, or lesson if you will, that there is something superior to Islam because of this preservation.  However, the reality and fact of the manuscript and its history  from what I found is that 1) there is only about 1/3 of it left and 2) there is more than one as Uthmar had five copies made and then burned all of the versions that had variations which, it was noted with a reference, were usually minor.  So there is no exisiting complete "original copy" of the Quran either.  

If I misunderstood the lesson that you were trying to get across I apologize.    I am also aware of the left/right brain theories and the human brain has different areas of functioning in the different halves.  But was there a particular person's/group's ideas that you are thinking of, please?

First of all, as I mentioned in my other post... the lesson you can learn from early islam is that..
once the general population started to care about human rights (thanks to the prophet to convince them to not kill their daughters, to free slaves, to not implement usury, ...etc)

then the population became productive, and expanded the field of science and technology.

This is how societies always work...

human rights -> allows economic freedom -> which allows technological and scientific progress

If you want to argue and debate against this theory, then there is no point.  Because this is what I believed, based on my research.

About the original Quran.  Will Uthman's quran is one of them that some say 1/3 of it exist.  First of all, how do you know that?  Have you seen it yourself?

Secondly, his quran isn't only 'original' one around.  There are many others... there are many very old qurans still residing in mosques Medina, Saudi Arabia- where the prophet
was living.  

The most important thing to see is that there is uniformity in the text.  A Muslim in Indonesia is reading the same Qur'an as a Muslim in morocco.

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From your view as a Shia Muslim, those who slaughtered Hussein and his followers (I am familiar with the history of the early years of Islam) were hypocritical and evil.  From the Sunni side they were rebelling against the right way and were dealt with albeit with violence.  My point is that there is more than one "side" or view of events.

Yes there are different point of views in history.  Remember what history is... HIS story.  

But the truth will come out eventually.   Do you think it's morally right thing for a leader to use force and even kill an individual that doesn't want to pledge allegiance to you?
If you think that the other side was justified in killing Hussein, then there is no point debating.  We'll just have to wait until the truth comes out....... that is when Imam Mahdi reveals the truth for all sects.

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Just to understand, when you refer to a particular "region" you mean the area of Persia/Iran?  There was a vast area beyond that which was conquered by forces under the banner of Islam beyond that land and the Arabian Peninsula.

I'm talking about the regions where human rights are accepted.  In those vast areas where forces were carrying the banner of 'Islam'... did they accept human rights?  If not, then by definition they're not Muslims, and it's incorrect to associate them with real Muslims.

 
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Would you please give some more specific information about the times and events that you are thinking of here?  What political changes in the Middle East and who wasn't taking the religion seriously?  Thank you.

Around the time when the siege of Baghdad happened and the big library (house of Wisdom was burnt down).  

This is something I'll have to study more to give you exact details of political changes.  But in general, when the mongols took over, it's obviously a different political system that disregarded human rights.


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Well, one question is: Is it the function of the book to refer to everyone who may have been historically involved in a subject or is it focused on a narrower field?  Why should any book on optics have a few sentences on Al-Hazen? What about references to the ancient Mesopotamians, Egyptians, Greeks and Romans who did things with Optics?  From my point should I expect that the English Bishop Robert Grosseteste or Roger Bacon be mentioned in optics texts because they did work in that area?   If the purpose of a text is to instruct on a particular subject technically, the writer(s) may not think that historical background is necessary.

Those who truly want to develop an intuition for a scientific subject, like optical physics....... it's very important to study the history of the subject.  To understand where these formulas originated.  You don't really learn by just memorizing a few equations and not making the effort to find out where they come from.

Al-Hazen is widely believed to be the father of optics.. because he most likely made the most non-trivial contributions to the field.  Sure, scientist from ancient civilizations made theories on the subject... but Al-Hazen discredit most of those ideas with simple arguments and revolutionaries the subject with different way of thinking.  

Again, historical background is very necessary to develop an intuition for the subject.

If you don't mind me asking, but did you study science, math, engineering, ...etc?
If you did, do you remember studying complex numbers.... like i = sqrt(-1) .   You know, most people just accept that sqrt(-1) is ok and just use it.  But for a professional mathematicians who're doing research at the front line, will need to rationalize the meaning of sqrt(-1)..... and so they'll have to study the history of the subject, to see where the idea came from and how it was widely accepted.  Btw, complex numbers means that the number is 2-dimentional, where the real part is a vector on the x-axis, and the imagenary part is a vector on the y-axis, and the resultant vector is the complex number.

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I would not give Al-Jazari the title of "father of Robotics" when there were automata of various kinds in many places and times that pre-date him. There are accounts of them from ancient China, Egypt, Greece and Rome. Technology is more of a continuum with people building on what came before.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automata


A lot of experts disagree... because he invented the first programmable humanoid robot.

Sure other individuals outside of Europe needs to be credited as well.  The overall point that I'm making, is as a whole, the Muslim scholars are not getting the recognition they deserve in western textbooks-- it would help today's scientist a lot when they're trying to develop an intuition for the subject.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Sinful Hypocrite on October 10, 2012, 08:12:01 PM
Well I'll be damned, it looks like those history textbooks that schools teach to us are false. In 7th grade when we learned about the rise of Islam the book said that Muhammed directly wrote the Qur'an in the cave by himself right after having the visions from Gabriel, and that he did not have several visions throughout his life but that he had all of the visions at once while in a cave and that the Qur'an was already written and finished by the time his visions stopped.
You will find a lot of text books are filled with flaws.  Public education is in a downward spiral.  The same thing happened to me in college with a history book.  I asked the professor why we had an inaccurate text book to which I was asked how it was inaccurate.  I explained, she rebutted and I supplied historical facts to back up my observation.  She finally said its up to someone else to screen the text books and we moved on.  That actually happened a lot in that class.  I hope they got that book out of the school.


You will find that in schools it will depend on the politics of the people in charge that determines which textbooks are used.

The High school I went to was predominantly republicans, so the history books and the teachers were as well.

There was a certain assignment I had and the teacher wanted me to write exactly opposite of what I had been taught about the depression and the presidents involved in that time period, which as I was later to learn was driven by the politics of that school.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Αριστοκλής on October 10, 2012, 08:16:24 PM
Actually, establishing Sharia at the local level is but part of their strategy to impose it nationally. Hence this is no difference to perceive.

How can they establish sharia in communities that are not Muslim?  Or even in Muslim communities that don't accept the sharia of the salafi school?  There will always be differences.
It's being done now in Britain.

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Remember what I said, real Muslims are against hierarchical structure.  Communities need to be strong enough to not allow outsiders to come in and manipulate their laws.

Yes, that is exactly how my ancestral areas were conquered in Anatolia. The 'outsiders' became numerous and strong enough to take a part, a little here, a little there. War was only used to mop up the conquest.

Same format is being followed today.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 11, 2012, 01:36:49 AM
Actually, establishing Sharia at the local level is but part of their strategy to impose it nationally. Hence this is no difference to perceive.

How can they establish sharia in communities that are not Muslim?  Or even in Muslim communities that don't accept the sharia of the salafi school?  There will always be differences.
It's being done now in Britain.

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Remember what I said, real Muslims are against hierarchical structure.  Communities need to be strong enough to not allow outsiders to come in and manipulate their laws.

Yes, that is exactly how my ancestral areas were conquered in Anatolia. The 'outsiders' became numerous and strong enough to take a part, a little here, a little there. War was only used to mop up the conquest.

Same format is being followed today.

First of all, what happened in Anatolia was wrong, I've made a thread regarding the events that happened in Constantinople:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,45203.0.html

About Islamic laws being implemented in Britian....... that's a stretch.  For one thing, British Muslims are currently using the British pound as their currency.  A true Islamic community wouldn't use such a currency, which is based on usury (riba). 
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 11, 2012, 01:53:04 AM
I have read some on human psychology and your claim is debateable.  First, you wrote that women and men are "mentally unequal".  Perhaps I should have been more clear and ask if you think that females are less intelligent then males.  "Different" is not the same as "unequal" by the way but your word was the latter.

Ebor, with all due respect, I'm not the type of individual that debates semantics.  You'll have to speak with a linguistic expert on words in the Quran that you have questions about it.

Next, when I said mentally unequal...... I'm saying they're different.  It doesn't mean one is smarter than the other.  Come on, this is something obvious.
Females on average excel in certain tasks, while Males on average excel in other tasks.  If you want to argue with me that this isn't the case, then you're arguing against nature IMO.  That is feminist ideology, which has been around for about 50 years (and that is the result of having a monetary system is based on usury).  Islam is different, we believe that men and women play different roles in society and are suppose to be complements of one another.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 11, 2012, 02:16:17 AM
But aren't there still religious symbols in Islam, Fibonacci? Even the flag of the Shahada, while in some sense purely textual, is still a symbol, in that even those who could not read it came to eventually associate it with Islam. Or, for that matter, the association of the color green with Islam. You can't get more symbolic/abstract than taking a color and tying meaning into it.

This reminds me of the conundrum of Protestant Christians, who will often look at physical acts or objects in the Church and say "that's idolatry" or "that's paganism", but not even consider why they might have an American flag somewhere in their church (we had one off to the side of the stage in the Presbyterian church I was raised in), or their pastor might of a photograph of his wife on his desk in his office, or they might even have modern drawings (not icons) of a rather hippie-ish Jesus in the "teen bibles" produced or purchased for use in their youth groups.

Many people have more symbols in their spiritual lives than their 'orthodoxy' allows them to admit.

The star and moon originated from paganism, and was spiritually charged.  Spiritually charged symbols is something fundamental to paganism and witchcraft.  You'll have to take my word for it.

The other symbols that Muslims use, is not that much of a big deal, unless people worship it ... in that case it's a sin.

You're right, in fact many things in people's lives do symbolize something..... it is really against God's way.

For example, did you know that when an engineer graduates from college, they get a ring... called the 'iron ring'.  They say it represents an engineer's pride.  Most Muslims, Christians just accept the ring without thinking about it.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 11, 2012, 02:29:23 AM
Explain Islamic sexual morality and sexual taboos in Islam. Is it comparable with Christianity?

Sex can only be done privately between adult male and adult female who truly love each other (that is committed for the long term... ie. they're married).

No sex based on lust .. ie. no fornication, adultery, ...etc.


Other types of sexual relationships are forbidden as well, as they also draw demons into your life.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 11, 2012, 02:40:20 AM
What's the relationship between Islam and Jews? I've understood that Islam has more negative view of Jews than of Christians. Am I correct? Why is that?

We believe pious Jews are also our brothers in getting closer to God.

The negative view is directed towards the edomites, who converted to juedisim and corrupted their religion.

Also Muslims do not agree with the concept of 'Eretz Yisrael' that modern day edomites are striving for.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on October 11, 2012, 03:55:56 AM
Why can't the Abrahamic religions be cool, modern and peaceful like Buddhism?

Hey come on now, Abrahamic religions are cool too.. there are a lot of knowledge/wisdom available for us to learn......like the knowledge of teleportation (Tay al-Ard).
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Theophilos78 on October 11, 2012, 06:25:39 AM

We believe pious Jews are also our brothers in getting closer to God.

The negative view is directed towards the edomites, who converted to juedisim and corrupted their religion.

Also Muslims do not agree with the concept of 'Eretz Yisrael' that modern day edomites are striving for.

If you say that the Edomites succeeded in corrupting Judaism, this means that now ALL Jews think, believe, and worship like Edomites.  ;D

Who are the Edomites anyway? I cannot see a reference to them in the Qur'an? Why is that? Why did the author of the Qur'an make no reference even to Esau, Jacob's twin brother?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Theophilos78 on October 11, 2012, 06:30:28 AM

Well this is a matter of faith.  Muslims agree with the truths/wisdom in the quran, and hence they accept that the messages are of divine orign.

It sure IS a matter of faith.

Which religion in the world would admit that its original scripture was corrupted and lost?  ;D

So when they see this verse http://quran.com/39/28

they accept it, and hence say there is no corruption in the Qur'an.

We'll just have to wait until Imam Mahdi returns to notify us if there has been any corruption.  Just like Jesus will come back and notify us if there has been any corruption in the recording of his message.

We believe what Jesus said in the Gospel "I am with you always, unto the end of ages". This is why we deny Muhammad and the Qur'an.  :angel:
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Theophilos78 on October 11, 2012, 06:42:00 AM

Also Muslims do not agree with the concept of 'Eretz Yisrael' that modern day edomites are striving for.

Why do Muslims curse Israel in their slogans? Isn't Israel also the second name of a great religious figure (Jacob) that is considered a prophet by the author of the Qur'an? Besides, in the Qur'an the name Israel appears only as Jacob's other name (Surah 19:58). Isn't the use of this name in a curse overt blasphemy? If the nation of Israel had the name Abraham, would Muslims likewise curse Abraham?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on October 11, 2012, 09:12:04 AM
I have read some on human psychology and your claim is debateable.  First, you wrote that women and men are "mentally unequal".  Perhaps I should have been more clear and ask if you think that females are less intelligent then males.  "Different" is not the same as "unequal" by the way but your word was the latter.

Ebor, with all due respect, I'm not the type of individual that debates semantics.  You'll have to speak with a linguistic expert on words in the Quran that you have questions about it.

Next, when I said mentally unequal...... I'm saying they're different.  It doesn't mean one is smarter than the other.  Come on, this is something obvious.
Females on average excel in certain tasks, while Males on average excel in other tasks.  If you want to argue with me that this isn't the case, then you're arguing against nature IMO.  That is feminist ideology, which has been around for about 50 years (and that is the result of having a monetary system is based on usury).  Islam is different, we believe that men and women play different roles in society and are suppose to be complements of one another.

But, you just played with semantics. "Mentally different" can mean "Mentally unequal" in some cases, when either is smarter than the other. It can also mean, as you pointed out that men and women excel in different tasks. However, "mentally unequal" by itself has only one connotation, a difference in degree, where one must be inferior to the other. In context, it means that women are inferior to men.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Αριστοκλής on October 11, 2012, 10:49:39 AM
Actually, establishing Sharia at the local level is but part of their strategy to impose it nationally. Hence this is no difference to perceive.

How can they establish sharia in communities that are not Muslim?  Or even in Muslim communities that don't accept the sharia of the salafi school?  There will always be differences.
It's being done now in Britain.

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Remember what I said, real Muslims are against hierarchical structure.  Communities need to be strong enough to not allow outsiders to come in and manipulate their laws.

Yes, that is exactly how my ancestral areas were conquered in Anatolia. The 'outsiders' became numerous and strong enough to take a part, a little here, a little there. War was only used to mop up the conquest.

Same format is being followed today.

First of all, what happened in Anatolia was wrong, I've made a thread regarding the events that happened in Constantinople:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,45203.0.html
Yes, I saw that thread but did not comment thinking it was an apology of sorts but not sure how far those sentiments went as to the general extinguishing of our faith in my ancestral lands. After all, my grandfather's baptismal church - the Church of the Holy Wisdom at Trapezounta (now Trebizond) is a fuel dump today.


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About Islamic laws being implemented in Britian....... that's a stretch.  For one thing, British Muslims are currently using the British pound as their currency.  A true Islamic community wouldn't use such a currency, which is based on usury (riba). 

Not such a stretch as you might think. I just did a Bing search on "British Sharia" and got returned 5,500,000+ hits about the FACT that in Britain court cases involving Muslim communities my be adjudicated within Sharia courts outside the usual British system.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Ebor on October 20, 2012, 12:28:13 PM
I mean no offense to you in this, but you are making assumptions on my thinking and understanding if you are under the impression that I do not find "lessons" in history, but only facts.  Sometimes it may be the case that a "lesson" might be drawn that is not, in fact, based on real situations or facts.

A case in point: as a Muslim you esteem the Quran and claimed that "the original" has been preserved in totality but that this is not the case for either the Jewish or Christian scriptures.  This seemed to have the meaning, or lesson if you will, that there is something superior to Islam because of this preservation.  However, the reality and fact of the manuscript and its history  from what I found is that 1) there is only about 1/3 of it left and 2) there is more than one as Uthmar had five copies made and then burned all of the versions that had variations which, it was noted with a reference, were usually minor.  So there is no exisiting complete "original copy" of the Quran either.  

If I misunderstood the lesson that you were trying to get across I apologize.    I am also aware of the left/right brain theories and the human brain has different areas of functioning in the different halves.  But was there a particular person's/group's ideas that you are thinking of, please?

First of all, as I mentioned in my other post... the lesson you can learn from early islam is that..
once the general population started to care about human rights (thanks to the prophet to convince them to not kill their daughters, to free slaves, to not implement usury, ...etc)

No, I have not learned that lesson from early Islam. Perhaps you have but you have not told us what materials and sources you have learned this though I have asked you to give some so that others can see what you have read.  Why do you think that it is not necessary to let us know where you get your information?  Why should your opinion/ideas on early Islam be accepted as authorative please?

At the same time I have mentioned Reza Aslan's book and I can give other sources as well.  Slaves were still taken and kept in Muslim societies. As I recall it was that freeborn Muslims could not be enslaved, but non-Muslims could.  Muslim/Arab slavers operated in Africa.  Slavery was common in many areas of the world, so this is not to say that it was unique to Islamic societies.  Here is a link to the first two chapters of Dr. Bernard Lewis' Race and Slavery in the Middle East
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/lewis1.asp

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then the population became productive, and expanded the field of science and technology.

This is how societies always work...

human rights -> allows economic freedom -> which allows technological and scientific progress

If you want to argue and debate against this theory, then there is no point.  Because this is what I believed, based on my research.

You believe this. When you say, though, that it is "how societies always work" that is a claim that needs more support than just your saying so.  If you do not want to defend your beliefs, no one can force you to.  And how can anyone debate you if you do not give real information from history but repeat a vague idea?


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About the original Quran.  Will Uthman's quran is one of them that some say 1/3 of it exist.  First of all, how do you know that?  Have you seen it yourself?

Secondly, his quran isn't only 'original' one around.  There are many others... there are many very old qurans still residing in mosques Medina, Saudi Arabia- where the prophet
was living.  

The most important thing to see is that there is uniformity in the text.  A Muslim in Indonesia is reading the same Qur'an as a Muslim in morocco.

I do not mean to seem rude, but you were the one who made a claim that the Quran was preserved in the original text while Christianity and Judaism did not have this advantage.  When I asked you where this "original" might be you answered that you thought it was in Uzbekistan.  I did research and found the article and information it and that 1) it is not the complete text and 2) it was not the only existing copy from when Uthman destroyed the variant texts and had one version compiled.  He was the one who ordered it and that five copies were made of it from which others were copied. 

I have seen photos of the manuscript in Uzbekistan.  Have you?  Have you seen any of the copies that date from Uthman's order yourself? And is a Muslim in Indonesia reading an Quran in his/her language or only in Arabic? As far as I know the Latin Vulgate text of the Bible has not changed, it is the translations into other languages and over time that are different. 

I submit that you are changing your claim from a miraculous preservation of the complete original to that copies that are all in the same language are "uniform".



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From your view as a Shia Muslim, those who slaughtered Hussein and his followers (I am familiar with the history of the early years of Islam) were hypocritical and evil.  From the Sunni side they were rebelling against the right way and were dealt with albeit with violence.  My point is that there is more than one "side" or view of events.

Yes there are different point of views in history.  Remember what history is... HIS story.  


I call that a semantics game.  The etymology of "history" is not from that play on the word.  It's from French-Latin-Greek on back.  Here's the info from EtymologyOnline: 
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=history&searchmode=none
 
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But the truth will come out eventually.   Do you think it's morally right thing for a leader to use force and even kill an individual that doesn't want to pledge allegiance to you?
If you think that the other side was justified in killing Hussein, then there is no point debating.  We'll just have to wait until the truth comes out....... that is when Imam Mahdi reveals the truth for all sects.

I don't have any bias one way or the other.  I am not any kind of Muslim. I do not think that it is right to use force and deal death to others.  Please do not attempt to attribute the idea that Hussein's death was justified to me.  I did not say that nor do I think that and there is nothing to debate in that area.

The split between Sunni and Shia was due to disagreement with who would lead Islam.  This combines religion and power struggles.  Muhammad was not a pacifist and used force against those who did not agree with him, the Battle of Badr and the Conquest of Mecca being a couple of instances.


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Just to understand, when you refer to a particular "region" you mean the area of Persia/Iran?  There was a vast area beyond that which was conquered by forces under the banner of Islam beyond that land and the Arabian Peninsula.

I'm talking about the regions where human rights are accepted.  In those vast areas where forces were carrying the banner of 'Islam'... did they accept human rights?  If not, then by definition they're not Muslims, and it's incorrect to associate them with real Muslims.

I think that this is a core point of your thought:  That you say that those who conquered other lands and peoples, who did violence in the name of Islam are not "real Muslims".  That is your definition.  But why would that apply to 14 centuries and millions upon millions of human beings?
 
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Would you please give some more specific information about the times and events that you are thinking of here?  What political changes in the Middle East and who wasn't taking the religion seriously?  Thank you.

Around the time when the siege of Baghdad happened and the big library (house of Wisdom was burnt down).  

This is something I'll have to study more to give you exact details of political changes.  But in general, when the mongols took over, it's obviously a different political system that disregarded human rights.

I would appreciate any information that you can post.  I think that you must be referring to the Siege of 1258 (Baghdad was besieged more than one or two times)


This is getting long, so I will finish up the last bit in a later post.

With respect,

Ebor

Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: recent convert on October 20, 2012, 12:57:22 PM
irst of all, as I mentioned in my other post... the lesson you can learn from early islam is that..
once the general population started to care about human rights (thanks to the prophet to convince them to not kill their daughters, to free slaves, to not implement usury, ...etc.

too free slaves? LOL>>>

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/slaverebel.htm


Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: tweety234 on December 10, 2012, 07:32:20 PM
can you be a suffi, without changing your christian faith, or denying your baptism?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Asteriktos on December 10, 2012, 07:36:47 PM
can you be a suffi, without changing your christian faith, or denying your baptism?

I am woefully ignorant of Islam, but I would still hazard a guess of "no" with some confidence  :police:
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: tweety234 on December 10, 2012, 08:15:02 PM
can you be a suffi, without changing your christian faith, or denying your baptism?

I am woefully ignorant of Islam, but I would still hazard a guess of "no" with some confidence  :police:

I once read a page about different religions, Of all of them besides christianity, I liked suffism.
It said that the only requirement they have in order to accept you as a suffi, is that you accept that there is only one God. No other Gods. Just one. (Which of course I do). They don't care how you call this God. As long as you admit this little Dogma. Of course I may be wrong. Any thoughts Anyone?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: dzheremi on December 10, 2012, 08:25:15 PM
Yes, you are wrong. Sufism is a sort of spiritual or mystical approach to Islam, but it is still Islam. So in order to be Sufi, you have to be Muslim, and in order to be Muslim you cannot be Christian. The two are incompatible.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Nephi on December 10, 2012, 09:41:55 PM
you cannot be Christian. The two are incompatible.
I'm pretty sure that this doesn't concern tweety that much.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: tweety234 on December 10, 2012, 09:49:21 PM
you cannot be Christian. The two are incompatible.
I'm pretty sure that this doesn't concern tweety that much.

it does? but you don't have to believe me. I can live with it.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Jetavan on December 11, 2012, 12:11:40 AM
can you be a suffi, without changing your christian faith, or denying your baptism?
Yes, there are Sufi orders that don't require one to become Muslim.

Of course, some other Muslims may argue that a true Sufi is always a Muslim.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: dzheremi on December 11, 2012, 12:37:35 AM
can you be a suffi, without changing your christian faith, or denying your baptism?
Yes, there are Sufi orders that don't require one to become Muslim.

Which ones, where?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Jetavan on December 11, 2012, 12:44:57 AM
can you be a suffi, without changing your christian faith, or denying your baptism?
Yes, there are Sufi orders that don't require one to become Muslim.

Which ones, where?
Members of the Chishti Order, especially Hazrat Inayat Khan (who came to the West in 1910, married a relative of Christian Science founder Mary Baker Eddy, and inspired several Sufi communities based on what is called "Universal Sufism").
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: JamesR on December 11, 2012, 06:28:39 AM
Sex can only be done privately between adult male and adult female who truly love each other (that is committed for the long term... ie. they're married).

No sex based on lust .. ie. no fornication, adultery, ...etc.


Other types of sexual relationships are forbidden as well, as they also draw demons into your life.

I am highly skeptical about this. I admit, I am no expert on Islam and probably less qualified to speak on it than you are, but from what I have observed and studied, it seems like Islam contains a lot of "loopholes" in regards to sexual morality. For example, allowing sexual relations between you and your slaves and captives, and requiring something like four or more adult men to WITNESS the act of intercourse at the same time in order to convict a man for rape.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: JamesR on December 11, 2012, 06:37:57 AM
...when the mongols took over, it's obviously a different political system that disregarded human rights.

I think you may be mistaken on this. The Mongols actually had quite a bit respect for human rights that--at the time--would put to shame most other empires of the world. The Mongols at the time were the only civilization I am aware of which truly allowed religious freedom, whereas Shariah allows discrimination against non-Muslim religions. The Mongols on the other hand treated all religions equally and pretty much stayed out of your life provided you paid them their tax. As for their violent system of war, it was essentially the same model that the Romans used.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Nephi on December 12, 2012, 12:24:33 AM
I think you may be mistaken on this. The Mongols actually had quite a bit respect for human rights that--at the time--would put to shame most other empires of the world. The Mongols at the time were the only civilization I am aware of which truly allowed religious freedom, whereas Shariah allows discrimination against non-Muslim religions. The Mongols on the other hand treated all religions equally and pretty much stayed out of your life provided you paid them their tax. As for their violent system of war, it was essentially the same model that the Romans used.
Tell that to the entire cities the Mongols massacred and razed.

Many scholars even argue that much of the developments of jihad as a theology, and as utilized today by militants, were in response to the violent occupation of Islamic lands by Mongols. In other words, the Mongols were more brutal and encompassing in their conquest compared to the drop-in-a-bucket crusades.

IIRC, the "Assassins" were brutally conquered and effectively wiped out by the Mongols.

It can't be said they had religious freedom, but rather religion was much lower in priority to them. Their empire was rather mixed through time - Pagan, partly Nestorian, and later Islamic.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: dzheremi on December 12, 2012, 12:40:44 AM
can you be a suffi, without changing your christian faith, or denying your baptism?
Yes, there are Sufi orders that don't require one to become Muslim.

Which ones, where?
Members of the Chishti Order, especially Hazrat Inayat Khan (who came to the West in 1910, married a relative of Christian Science founder Mary Baker Eddy, and inspired several Sufi communities based on what is called "Universal Sufism").

Ah...yes..."universal Sufism", i.e., the "Unitarian Universalists" of the Sufi world. Forgive me if I take that as a non-answer because every form of "Universal" anything is always a non-answer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvpjPO61FWU) to anything.

Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Jetavan on December 12, 2012, 08:34:41 AM
can you be a suffi, without changing your christian faith, or denying your baptism?
Yes, there are Sufi orders that don't require one to become Muslim.

Which ones, where?
Members of the Chishti Order, especially Hazrat Inayat Khan (who came to the West in 1910, married a relative of Christian Science founder Mary Baker Eddy, and inspired several Sufi communities based on what is called "Universal Sufism").

Ah...yes..."universal Sufism", i.e., the "Unitarian Universalists" of the Sufi world. Forgive me if I take that as a non-answer because every form of "Universal" anything is always a non-answer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvpjPO61FWU) to anything.


It should be noted that the Chishti Order is not part of "Universal Sufism".
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on January 09, 2013, 07:39:56 AM
Hi folks

Been a few months since I was here.  Hopefully I can respond to some of your replies.

If you say that the Edomites succeeded in corrupting Judaism, this means that now ALL Jews think, believe, and worship like Edomites.  ;D

Who are the Edomites anyway? I cannot see a reference to them in the Qur'an? Why is that? Why did the author of the Qur'an make no reference even to Esau, Jacob's twin brother?

I'm surprised you haven't heard about Edomites.  I believe in bible studies, they're referred to as the 'red jews'.

A lot of jews know about them, and know they're an open enemy to their religion-- http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Edomites.html

Alot of christian sites claim that it was the edomites that crucified Jesus -- http://divinepageant.com/indictment_of_edom.htm


In the quran they're referred to as the people of Gog and Magog (yajooj and majooj).  One particular surah is, surah Al-Kahf which talks about how they were corrupt and carried out mischief. 


If you ever wondered why the Zionists are lusting for a war with Iran, it's because of a religious prophecy they're obsessed about-- http://choshvei.blogspot.ca/2006/03/gemara-on-war-between-edom-and-persia.html .

They believe that such a war will accelerate the emergence of their long-awaited messiah (which from Islam's and Orthodox Christianity's point of view, will be the antichrist, a leader in eretz yisrael who trys to impersonates the messiah).


 
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on January 09, 2013, 08:05:36 AM

Well this is a matter of faith.  Muslims agree with the truths/wisdom in the quran, and hence they accept that the messages are of divine orign.

It sure IS a matter of faith.

Which religion in the world would admit that its original scripture was corrupted and lost?  ;D

So when they see this verse http://quran.com/39/28

they accept it, and hence say there is no corruption in the Qur'an.

We'll just have to wait until Imam Mahdi returns to notify us if there has been any corruption.  Just like Jesus will come back and notify us if there has been any corruption in the recording of his message.

We believe what Jesus said in the Gospel "I am with you always, unto the end of ages". This is why we deny Muhammad and the Qur'an.  :angel:



Look I'm not sure what point you're making.....

but the truths that were revealed to mankind come in many different formats and in different books... it's the same truths whether it's from prophet Jesus or prophet Mohammed!  Saying you deny what Mohammed and the quran says, is like saying you deny the truths revealed from God.  

You see, the original bible had a lot of truths in it, talked about God's law, and how humans should behave if they want to reach a higher state where they can understand the secrets of the universe, questions like why we're here and what's our purpose,...etc.

Now overtime that original text of that bible was lost... although the old testament always talked about the 1 God and His way and His prophets, it had some flaws, where it said some sinful things about the prophets.  That prophet Noah was an alcoholic and managed to create the arc in such a state!!! Prophet Lut committed very bad sins with his daughters!!! And Prophet David murdered someone so he can get away with an adulterous relation!!!  

Obv these stories are not true.  The quran was sent down to fix this problem.  It contains many of the same stories about prophets, but made it clear that prophets of God don't commit such bad sins.  I suggest you read both the whole bible (not just a few passages), then read the whole quran.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on January 09, 2013, 08:22:50 AM

Also Muslims do not agree with the concept of 'Eretz Yisrael' that modern day edomites are striving for.

Why do Muslims curse Israel in their slogans? Isn't Israel also the second name of a great religious figure (Jacob) that is considered a prophet by the author of the Qur'an? Besides, in the Qur'an the name Israel appears only as Jacob's other name (Surah 19:58). Isn't the use of this name in a curse overt blasphemy? If the nation of Israel had the name Abraham, would Muslims likewise curse Abraham?

Not sure where to start...

All I have to say is this, the antichrist (dajjal), edomites (gog&magog) and their allied demons (jinns) thrive off of wars, chaos, economic disasters, especially in regions where people are very religious, innocent, pious, ...etc.

This is why today, we see so much conflicts in ME (jewish, muslim, christian areas), why very religious christian nations like Greece, Ireland, ...etc, and other European countries are struggling with a painful financial disaster because of the usury that the edomite bankers have imposed on them.

Do you see the big picture?

Instead of coming here and arguing about trivial misunderstandings, we should really work together and point out the chaos and mischief that the antichrist is throwing at us.  Zionist Israel is kind of like a huge military base for the Antichrist and his followers.... so this is why a lot of Muslims are upset about their presence in the ME, and they go protest and express their feelings in the way you mentioned.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on January 09, 2013, 08:29:04 AM
But, you just played with semantics. "Mentally different" can mean "Mentally unequal" in some cases, when either is smarter than the other. It can also mean, as you pointed out that men and women excel in different tasks. However, "mentally unequal" by itself has only one connotation, a difference in degree, where one must be inferior to the other. In context, it means that women are inferior to men.

Carl....

I'm sorry I didn't use the right terminology, because words often fail me.  I think in pictures/analogies (right brain) not in words/semantics (left brain).

All I will say on this topic is that....

Men and Women play different roles in society, and they compliment each other.... like the Sun and the Moon  (they compliment one another).
The Men are the fathers, and the Women are the mothers.  Simple as that.  No one's inferior to no one else, we're all spiritually equal to our Creator.

I don't know how much more I can elaborate on this topic.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on January 09, 2013, 08:40:09 AM
Not such a stretch as you might think. I just did a Bing search on "British Sharia" and got returned 5,500,000+ hits about the FACT that in Britain court cases involving Muslim communities my be adjudicated within Sharia courts outside the usual British system.

Look not all Muslims agree with the concept of imposing Sharia on everybody who's not muslim-- like what's happening in Egypt where there is a large christian population.


Please don't be confused by what some wahabbi Muslims are preaching..... there are plenty of Muslims who recognize the beliefs of people of other faiths (including atheists) and therefore would not demand sharia law to be imposed on them.

The only reason why some britsh muslims want sharia law in Britian is for the court to recognize their beliefs and judge in accordance to Islam, when a conflict happens between Muslims.... not between a Muslim and a non-Muslim.  The latter case, the courts will simply judge with the common law that brits are familiar with.


So in general the sharia law they're asking doesn't affect you, unless you're a Muslim going to court with another Muslim and both ask for the judging to be done in accordance to quranic laws.


As an example, there are unfortunately times where Muslim families have to divorce.  In Islam, the man takes care of the kids and mother doesn't pay any child support.  In common western law, the women takes care of the kids and the father has to pay child support.   So this is a situation where Muslims want judging to be done in terms of sharia.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on January 09, 2013, 08:49:50 AM
can you be a suffi, without changing your christian faith, or denying your baptism?

Well Suffi pretty much means spiritual.... so you can definitely be a spiritual christian

but if you want to be a sufi muslim..

you don't really have to go through baptism

you simply have to recognize that there is one Creator, and prophets like Jesus and Mohammed are his prophets and messengers  (Shahada)

it's simple as that....


I suggest you read the whole Quran first and then go with whatever intuition you get from that point onwards.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on January 09, 2013, 08:55:52 AM
I am highly skeptical about this. I admit, I am no expert on Islam and probably less qualified to speak on it than you are, but from what I have observed and studied, it seems like Islam contains a lot of "loopholes" in regards to sexual morality. For example, allowing sexual relations between you and your slaves and captives, and requiring something like four or more adult men to WITNESS the act of intercourse at the same time in order to convict a man for rape.

James, very early in this thread I addressed the rulings on rape.... did you read my earlier posts?

Did you also finish reading the whole quran?


Finally the 4 witness ruling, is for sins like public adultery or public fornication.  Rape doesn't fall in this category.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on January 09, 2013, 09:09:08 AM
...when the mongols took over, it's obviously a different political system that disregarded human rights.

I think you may be mistaken on this. The Mongols actually had quite a bit respect for human rights that--at the time--would put to shame most other empires of the world. The Mongols at the time were the only civilization I am aware of which truly allowed religious freedom, whereas Shariah allows discrimination against non-Muslim religions. The Mongols on the other hand treated all religions equally and pretty much stayed out of your life provided you paid them their tax. As for their violent system of war, it was essentially the same model that the Romans used.

you're bringing up issues that isn't really relevant to my post


first of all, as I said earlier, shariah is simply a moral code that ONLY Muslims abide to..... it's not suppose to be a series of laws imposed on non-Muslims!!!!  Do you understand what I'm saying?   Just because western-backed Wahhabi organization like MB in Egypt are doing the opposite thing and imposing sharia on Christians, doesn't mean it's the Islamic thing to do.  What they're doing is WRONG.  It's deception.  It's the work of the anti-christ!!

One last time, please don't come to the conclusion that when sharia is implemented into law that it is automatically imposed on non-Muslim.


Now about the mongols, you may think that Genghis Khan and his men ran a very friendly empire.... but a lot of historians don't agree with your premise.  I suggest you read other history books from that time period aswell  -- particularly those from Iranian sources.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Αριστοκλής on January 09, 2013, 09:39:22 AM
Not such a stretch as you might think. I just did a Bing search on "British Sharia" and got returned 5,500,000+ hits about the FACT that in Britain court cases involving Muslim communities my be adjudicated within Sharia courts outside the usual British system.

Look not all Muslims agree with the concept of imposing Sharia on everybody who's not muslim-- like what's happening in Egypt where there is a large christian population.


Please don't be confused by what some wahabbi Muslims are preaching..... there are plenty of Muslims who recognize the beliefs of people of other faiths (including atheists) and therefore would not demand sharia law to be imposed on them.

The only reason why some britsh muslims want sharia law in Britian is for the court to recognize their beliefs and judge in accordance to Islam, when a conflict happens between Muslims.... not between a Muslim and a non-Muslim.  The latter case, the courts will simply judge with the common law that brits are familiar with.


So in general the sharia law they're asking doesn't affect you, unless you're a Muslim going to court with another Muslim and both ask for the judging to be done in accordance to quranic laws.


As an example, there are unfortunately times where Muslim families have to divorce.  In Islam, the man takes care of the kids and mother doesn't pay any child support.  In common western law, the women takes care of the kids and the father has to pay child support.   So this is a situation where Muslims want judging to be done in terms of sharia.

I assure you I am not confused about what is transpiring in England. Point is, Sharia IS now employed in Britain. I do not care if AT THIS TIME it is only in cases between Muslims.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Αριστοκλής on January 09, 2013, 09:42:26 AM
Hi folks

Been a few months since I was here.  Hopefully I can respond to some of your replies.

If you say that the Edomites succeeded in corrupting Judaism, this means that now ALL Jews think, believe, and worship like Edomites.  ;D

Who are the Edomites anyway? I cannot see a reference to them in the Qur'an? Why is that? Why did the author of the Qur'an make no reference even to Esau, Jacob's twin brother?

I'm surprised you haven't heard about Edomites.  I believe in bible studies, they're referred to as the 'red jews'.

A lot of jews know about them, and know they're an open enemy to their religion-- http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Edomites.html

Alot of christian sites claim that it was the edomites that crucified Jesus -- http://divinepageant.com/indictment_of_edom.htm


In the quran they're referred to as the people of Gog and Magog (yajooj and majooj).  One particular surah is, surah Al-Kahf which talks about how they were corrupt and carried out mischief. 


If you ever wondered why the Zionists are lusting for a war with Iran, it's because of a religious prophecy they're obsessed about-- http://choshvei.blogspot.ca/2006/03/gemara-on-war-between-edom-and-persia.html .

They believe that such a war will accelerate the emergence of their long-awaited messiah (which from Islam's and Orthodox Christianity's point of view, will be the antichrist, a leader in eretz yisrael who trys to impersonates the messiah).


 

How interesting!

Care to educate us about the Twelfth Imam - the Mahdi?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Severian on January 09, 2013, 03:56:40 PM
Do you believe we worship the same god? Do you believe that righteous individuals from the people of the book can go to Jannah?

+Thanks
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: JamesR on January 09, 2013, 04:28:31 PM
Is there anything Sacramental about Islam at all? Even the Jews had the Passover which was Sacramental, but I don't see anything like that in Islam.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: WPM on January 09, 2013, 04:51:06 PM
Why do Muslims deny the crucfixion and resurrection?..
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Theophilos78 on January 09, 2013, 05:25:01 PM

I'm surprised you haven't heard about Edomites.  I believe in bible studies, they're referred to as the 'red jews'.

I know about the Edomites. You have not answered my question yet though! What does the Qur'an say about them? Does the word Edom or Edomite occur in Islamic scripture?

A lot of jews know about them, and know they're an open enemy to their religion-- http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Edomites.html

Alot of christian sites claim that it was the edomites that crucified Jesus -- http://divinepageant.com/indictment_of_edom.htm


That's just a claim. I am not interested in such theories though.

In the quran they're referred to as the people of Gog and Magog (yajooj and majooj).  One particular surah is, surah Al-Kahf which talks about how they were corrupt and carried out mischief. 

Are you sure? The Qur'an does talk about Gog and Magog, but says nothing about the Edomites. Can you give Surah and verse number for the Quranic reference to the group of Edomites?

If you ever wondered why the Zionists are lusting for a war with Iran, it's because of a religious prophecy they're obsessed about-- http://choshvei.blogspot.ca/2006/03/gemara-on-war-between-edom-and-persia.html .

They believe that such a war will accelerate the emergence of their long-awaited messiah (which from Islam's and Orthodox Christianity's point of view, will be the antichrist, a leader in eretz yisrael who trys to impersonates the messiah).

Zionists are trying to protect themselves against a state that aims to destroy them.

The Qur'anic author seems ignorant of the meaning of the term "Christ". The term "anti-Christ", on the other hand, does not exist in the Qur'an.


 
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Theophilos78 on January 09, 2013, 05:26:29 PM
Why do Muslims deny the crucfixion and resurrection?..

Only because Muhammad considered the tenet of Jesus' death a stumbling block for his ideology and because he was heavily influenced by anti-Jewish Gnostic teachings.  ;D
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Theophilos78 on January 09, 2013, 05:41:55 PM

Look I'm not sure what point you're making.....

That Jesus' promise is still valid and it's impossible to alter God's words. Your scripture also holds the same doctrine (Surah 18:27, Surah 10:94, Surah 6:34), but you disregard such verses because the so-called validity of your scripture depends on the supposed corruption of the Bible. You think that there would be no need for the Qur'an if the Bible remained authentic. This is why you bring up the allegations of biblical corruption.

but the truths that were revealed to mankind come in many different formats and in different books... it's the same truths whether it's from prophet Jesus or prophet Mohammed!  Saying you deny what Mohammed and the quran says, is like saying you deny the truths revealed from God.  

Well, this is circular reasoning. I do not believe that Muhammad was given a book from above. That means what he proclaimed was not true.

You see, the original bible had a lot of truths in it, talked about God's law, and how humans should behave if they want to reach a higher state where they can understand the secrets of the universe, questions like why we're here and what's our purpose,...etc.

Where is that original Bible then? If you claim that it was altered and lost, you must come with your evidence. Bring the so-called original text if you are telling the truth.

Now overtime that original text of that bible was lost...

Again no evidence! This is just a baseless assertion. I could go ahead and make a similar accusation. I could even claim that no one named Muhammad lived in history and even the name is a fabrication.

although the old testament always talked about the 1 God and His way and His prophets, it had some flaws, where it said some sinful things about the prophets.  That prophet Noah was an alcoholic and managed to create the arc in such a state!!! Prophet Lut committed very bad sins with his daughters!!! And Prophet David murdered someone so he can get away with an adulterous relation!!!  

Where is written in the Qur'an that all prophets were and had to be sinless. Cite the Surah and verse please.

The Qur'an also teaches that David sinned and asked for forgiveness. (Surah 38:21-25)

The Bible does not say that Lot was a messenger/prophet. The Qur'an does. Yet the same Qur'an also teaches that Lot offered his daughters to the townsfolk when they came to rape his guests. How can a prophet do such a thing?

Obv these stories are not true.  The quran was sent down to fix this problem.  It contains many of the same stories about prophets, but made it clear that prophets of God don't commit such bad sins.  I suggest you read both the whole bible (not just a few passages), then read the whole quran.

The Qur'an was not sent or revealed because there was/is no problem with those teachings. Since the Bible is the the true word of God, the Qur'an is false and we do not need it. The Qur'an is actually a false and cheap copy of the Bible.

I have already read the Qur'an. I am an ex-Muslim!  :D
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Theophilos78 on January 09, 2013, 05:44:02 PM

Not sure where to start...

All I have to say is this, the antichrist (dajjal), edomites (gog&magog) and their allied demons (jinns) thrive off of wars, chaos, economic disasters, especially in regions where people are very religious, innocent, pious, ...etc.

This is why today, we see so much conflicts in ME (jewish, muslim, christian areas), why very religious christian nations like Greece, Ireland, ...etc, and other European countries are struggling with a painful financial disaster because of the usury that the edomite bankers have imposed on them.

Do you see the big picture?

Instead of coming here and arguing about trivial misunderstandings, we should really work together and point out the chaos and mischief that the antichrist is throwing at us.  Zionist Israel is kind of like a huge military base for the Antichrist and his followers.... so this is why a lot of Muslims are upset about their presence in the ME, and they go protest and express their feelings in the way you mentioned.

Instead of begging the question, why don't you answer my simple questions about the Qur'an? Why the need to attack the Jews and Zionists and talk about politics in order to evade my questions and defend the Qur'an?  ::)
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: psalm110 on January 10, 2013, 09:40:18 AM
How are demons exorcised in Islam ?. Do they use the help of a Senior Jinn and quranic verses ?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Jetavan on January 10, 2013, 12:27:03 PM
How are demons exorcised in Islam ?. Do they use the help of a Senior Jinn and quranic verses ?

Quote
An Interview with a Muslim Exorcist (http://shaikhsohail.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/an-interview-with-a-muslim-exorcist/)
....
Q. Do jinn possess believing Muslims who are conscientious in their religious practices?

A. This only happens to those of weak faith. The jinn have no power over the true believers. The Almighty said:

“You will have no authority over My servants, except those among the misguided who follow you.”

“He (i.e., Satan) said, ‘By your power, I will surely mislead them all, except Your sincere, chosen servants.’”

The true believers and sincere worshippers of Allaah are protected by Him, so the devils cannot possess them. On the other hand, the devils play with worshippers of Satan who disobey Allaah in the same way that children pray football.
....
Q. How do you explain a Christian priest’s successful exorcism of patients?

A. The non-Muslim in this field works with the jinn. The jinn may ease the pain for a week or months in order that the patient put his trust in the disbelieving healer. If he were a Muslim patient, his faith would be lost. For only the Qur’aan is the word of Allaah and only it can heal the spirit.
I think this Muslim exorcist is saying that a non-Muslim exorcist and the jinn work together in order to convince the patient that the non-Muslim exorcist is a real exorcist, whereas what is really going on is that the jinn merely eases the pain for a short period of time, to make it seem as if the non-Muslim exorcist can actually exorcise the jinn. The non-Muslim exorcist and the jinn are in cahoots.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: SavedByChrist94 on January 10, 2013, 12:35:03 PM
Genesis 1:26: Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in His own image,
    in the image of God He created them;
    male and female He created them.

Only Christianity can be True.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Eastern Mind on January 10, 2013, 12:43:37 PM
Oh dear, he found the Islam topic...
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Ansgar on January 10, 2013, 02:00:46 PM
Genesis 1:26: Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in His own image,
    in the image of God He created them;
    male and female He created them.

Only Christianity can be True.

I fale to see how this proves that Christianity is true.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: orthonorm on January 10, 2013, 03:02:27 PM
Genesis 1:26: Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in His own image,
    in the image of God He created them;
    male and female He created them.

Only Christianity can be True.

I fale to see how this proves that Christianity is true.

He's going to get a shock when he looks at the Koran and sees Allah referred to in the plural.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Cantor Krishnich on January 10, 2013, 03:09:06 PM
Is there anything Sacramental about Islam at all? Even the Jews had the Passover which was Sacramental, but I don't see anything like that in Islam.

What exactly do you mean by sacramental? The word sacrament has several definitions, most of them being tied to Christianity. According to Wikipedia, it means: a sacred rite recognized as of particular importance and significance. So i'm going to go with that definition to answer your question.

Muslims have many "sacraments" if you will, such as: Khitan/Circumcision, Nikah/Marriage, Hajj/Pilgrimage to Mekkah, Janazah Salah/Funeral, the daily recitation of the Shahada/Profession of Faith, practicing the 5 Pillars of Islaam.

In terms of feasts/celebrations, the Mohammedans celebrate many "feasts", if you will, on the Islamic Calendar (Ramadan, Eid al-Fitr, Eid al-Adha, Saint's days, etc.)

If your referring to rituals, there are several rituals found in Islamic practices and even more rituals in Shia and Sufi sects. There's a lot of ritual washing/ablutions that take place at many different times, ritual slaughter of animals for food, rituals found in Salah (the formal worship practice of Muslims), occasional ritual use of incense, many distinct and at many times, weird practices from the Sufis and Shia sects.  
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Eastern Mind on January 10, 2013, 03:44:28 PM
Genesis 1:26: Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in His own image,
    in the image of God He created them;
    male and female He created them.

Only Christianity can be True.

I fale to see how this proves that Christianity is true.

He's going to get a shock when he looks at the Koran and sees Allah referred to in the plural.

I didn't know that, I must admit. Why is Allah plural?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Jetavan on January 10, 2013, 03:48:50 PM
Genesis 1:26: Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in His own image,
    in the image of God He created them;
    male and female He created them.

Only Christianity can be True.

I fale to see how this proves that Christianity is true.

He's going to get a shock when he looks at the Koran and sees Allah referred to in the plural.

I didn't know that, I must admit. Why is Allah plural?
Lots of theories, some of them similar to the theories explaining why God ("Elohim") in Genesis 1 is plural.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: JamesR on January 10, 2013, 04:16:09 PM
How come Islam is so iconoclastic? I watched an episode of Southpark the other day that was making fun of Family Guy and the Islamic prophet Muhammed was on the show, but his appearance was censored out because the network thought it would be offensive to air.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Jetavan on January 10, 2013, 04:24:26 PM
How come Islam is so iconoclastic? I watched an episode of Southpark the other day that was making fun of Family Guy and the Islamic prophet Muhammed was on the show, but his appearance was censored out because the network thought it would be offensive to air.

In 1999, Islamic art expert Wijdan Ali wrote a scholarly overview of the Muslim tradition of depicting Mohammed.... In that essay, Ali demonstrates that the prohibition against depicting Mohammed did not arise until as late as the 16th or 17th century (http://zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/islamic_mo_full/), despite the media's recent false claims that it has always been forbidden for Muslims to draw Mohammed. Until comparatively recently in Islamic history, it was perfectly common to show Mohammed, either in full (as revealed on this page), or with his face hidden (as shown on the next page). Even after the 17th century, up to modern times, Islamic depictions of Mohammed (especially in Shi'ite areas) continued to be produced.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: psalm110 on January 10, 2013, 08:53:05 PM
How are demons exorcised in Islam ?. Do they use the help of a Senior Jinn and quranic verses ?

Quote
An Interview with a Muslim Exorcist (http://shaikhsohail.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/an-interview-with-a-muslim-exorcist/)
....
Q. Do jinn possess believing Muslims who are conscientious in their religious practices?

A. This only happens to those of weak faith. The jinn have no power over the true believers. The Almighty said:

“You will have no authority over My servants, except those among the misguided who follow you.”

“He (i.e., Satan) said, ‘By your power, I will surely mislead them all, except Your sincere, chosen servants.’”

The true believers and sincere worshippers of Allaah are protected by Him, so the devils cannot possess them. On the other hand, the devils play with worshippers of Satan who disobey Allaah in the same way that children pray football.
....
Q. How do you explain a Christian priest’s successful exorcism of patients?

A. The non-Muslim in this field works with the jinn. The jinn may ease the pain for a week or months in order that the patient put his trust in the disbelieving healer. If he were a Muslim patient, his faith would be lost. For only the Qur’aan is the word of Allaah and only it can heal the spirit.
I think this Muslim exorcist is saying that a non-Muslim exorcist and the jinn work together in order to convince the patient that the non-Muslim exorcist is a real exorcist, whereas what is really going on is that the jinn merely eases the pain for a short period of time, to make it seem as if the non-Muslim exorcist can actually exorcise the jinn. The non-Muslim exorcist and the jinn are in cahoots.

I've heard otherwise from Muslims who use converted Jinns to accomplish a task for the person who uses them and even exorcise other Jinns who posses people.

He mentions the priests and the demon are working together, which is of course is not true. At times a demon will flee when a possesed person is approaching to take the Holy Eucharest.

By reading that article he bases his certainty on the truth of Islam because of the power of exorcising demons From Islamic accordance ?. Even the non-Abrahamic religions can exorcise evil spirits, so tht makes them true also.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: tweety234 on January 10, 2013, 10:27:41 PM
WHY do muslims say that we are going to hell?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: psalm110 on January 10, 2013, 10:31:49 PM
WHY do muslims say that we are going to hell?

Cause the Quran says so, but is it figuratively as our Orthodox understanding of it or is it literally ?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Nephi on January 10, 2013, 10:33:23 PM
WHY do muslims say that we are going to hell?
I'm pretty sure most Muslims don't.

IIRC, the Quran is positive towards "People of the Book" on topics such as these.

However, it can be argued (as it sometimes is) that Trinitarian Christians don't actually fall within "People of the Book."
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: tweety234 on January 10, 2013, 10:42:14 PM
WHY do muslims say that we are going to hell?
I'm pretty sure most Muslims don't.

IIRC, the Quran is positive towards "People of the Book" on topics such as these.

However, it can be argued (as it sometimes is) that Trinitarian Christians don't actually fall within "People of the Book."

who are the people of the book? and what is this book?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Nephi on January 10, 2013, 10:44:47 PM
who are the people of the book? and what is this book?

The People of the Book is one way the Quran refers to Jews and Christians, who were preceeding receivers of revelation (the Book) from God. This stands in contrast to pagans.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: orthonorm on January 11, 2013, 01:40:18 PM
How come Islam is so iconoclastic? I watched an episode of Southpark the other day that was making fun of Family Guy and the Islamic prophet Muhammed was on the show, but his appearance was censored out because the network thought it would be offensive to air.

In 1999, Islamic art expert Wijdan Ali wrote a scholarly overview of the Muslim tradition of depicting Mohammed.... In that essay, Ali demonstrates that the prohibition against depicting Mohammed did not arise until as late as the 16th or 17th century (http://zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/islamic_mo_full/), despite the media's recent false claims that it has always been forbidden for Muslims to draw Mohammed. Until comparatively recently in Islamic history, it was perfectly common to show Mohammed, either in full (as revealed on this page), or with his face hidden (as shown on the next page). Even after the 17th century, up to modern times, Islamic depictions of Mohammed (especially in Shi'ite areas) continued to be produced.

Jetavan,

Thank you for playing whack-a-mole on this stuff.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: orthonorm on January 11, 2013, 01:44:31 PM
WHY do muslims say that we are going to hell?
I'm pretty sure most Muslims don't.

IIRC, the Quran is positive towards "People of the Book" on topics such as these.

However, it can be argued (as it sometimes is) that Trinitarian Christians don't actually fall within "People of the Book."

Actually, if you get into more than a cursory look at the tradition of Islamic philosophy and theology, you will find that in the end it ends up sorta like most orthodox Christian apologetics:

Only Moslems will enter Paradise. It is not clear who all Moslems are, so be careful in your judgments about those who you think are not.

I don't have the time nor care to source, I am sure this is easily found by merely googling.

So the whole this isn't the teaching of Islam is often correct. And this should be well understood by Orthodox Christians, at least on this board, who are constantly arguing that prevailing ideas within Christendom are not "true" and often that what many Orthodox do and think is "wrong".
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: NicholasMyra on January 11, 2013, 01:52:30 PM
Why can't the Abrahamic religions be cool, modern and peaceful like Buddhism?
Yeah, it's not like they had a bunch of heresies and had to have emperors convene ecumenical councils or anything (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Buddhist_council). They just sat around, chilling out while huffing Darjeeling and listening to the sound of one Wall bricking.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Феофан on January 11, 2013, 09:06:03 PM
Dear Muslim person,

If there were truly "no compulsion in religion" (ie. Islam) as the Qu'ran says, why does the Qu'ran also enjoin muslims to punish apostasy with death?  Surprisingly the Qu'ran also claims there is no contradiction in the Qu'ran and that Allah is the "Most Merciful" - but commanding muslims to kill apostates contradicts both the Qu'ran's claim to be consistent and the supposed 'mercy' of Allah.

It was Shaytan that gave Muhammad nothing but lies to foment the endless 'holy wars' by and for which he enlists his 'slaves' and for no other reason !  It is the satanic lust for war that makes Islam simply oozing with fear and force whereas true Christianity is full of forgiveness and forbearance - the goodness of the real God and His love for mankind.  The muslim's Allah is just Shaytan, the jihad junkie, in drag! so don't tell me about "the lesser and greater jihad"... it's all submitting yourselves and anyone else you can force by the sword to the feet of Shaytan from where you can never then dare to move for fear of being physically killed by your 'brothers' on the direct order of their "Most Merciful" Shaytan !  May the sweet mercy of Christ find your poor beleaguered souls and save you from that tormented and wasted life.

A muslim apologist offering to "answer questions" about Islam in a Christian forum is like a drug dealer offering free samples in a schoolyard... good grief...  why should the sulfurous smell of Islam even be allowed in here?  We must all love the sinner but who says we need to give their sin a space to grow in our garden?  
                                                          
                                                    :police:   :police:   :police:
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Jetavan on January 11, 2013, 09:25:17 PM
Dear Muslim person,

If there were truly "no compulsion in religion" (ie. Islam) as the Qu'ran says, why does the Qu'ran also enjoin muslims to punish apostasy with death?
Surah, verse?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: WPM on January 11, 2013, 10:19:27 PM
WHY do muslims say that we are going to hell?

Because the threat of Hell is associated with "their way of thinking" ...
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Феофан on January 11, 2013, 10:46:35 PM
Dear Muslim person,

If there were truly "no compulsion in religion" (ie. Islam) as the Qu'ran says, why does the Qu'ran also enjoin muslims to punish apostasy with death?
Surah, verse?

I apologize for overstating the specificity of the Qu'ranic penalty for apostasy. I was misled by other zealous Christian commentary against it.  However, all 4 major schools of Islamic jurisprudence unanimously agree the penalty for apostasy IS death and I think it's fair to assume that all the major schools of Islamic jurisprudence certainly DO understand what the intent of the Qu'ran is regarding apostasy.  Here's a summary of their positions from a book called "The Penalties for Apostasy in Islam" by 'Abdurrahmani'l-Djaziri

Quote
[...]
Muslim scholars (imams) have said: Apostasy must be determined by the testimony of two upright adult witnesses whose accounts agree. When a judge asks how the Muslim fell from the faith, the witness must say, "He says such and such or does such and such."

All four imams (the founders of the four schools of Islamic law) -- may Allah have mercy upon them -- agree that the apostate whose fall from Islam is beyond doubt -- may Allah forbid it -- must be killed, and his blood must be spilled without reservation. The hypocrite and heretic (zindiq) who poses as a Muslim but has secretly remained an unbeliever must also be killed.

2. Calling the Apostate to Repentance

The Hanafites: When the Muslim falls away from Islam -- may Allah forbid it! -- he is first asked to return. If he has doubts, he is to express them; one can then clear up his doubts, for it may be that he truly has questions with regard to the faith -- questions in need of explanation. By this it is possible to deal with his evil deed (sharr) through the best of two possibilities: death or the acceptance of Islam. However, it remains desirable to offer him the acceptance of Islam again, although this is not obligatory, because the message had already been offered him once.

If he needs time to reconsider, it is desirable that the judge allow him a three-day extension, during which he is to remain in custody. If he accepts Islam thereafter, it is good; if not, he is to be killed, for Allah says to "kill those who believe in many gods" (Sura al-Tawba 9:5), without fixing a deadline. The Prophet also said, "Kill him who changes his religion," without mentioning a delay, because the apostate is surely a hostile unbeliever and no asylum seeker (musta'min) who has asked for protection; furthermore, he is no dhimmi (a non-Muslim under Islamic rule), for no poll tax is demanded of him. Therefore, he should be killed without reservation.

The Hanafites are of the opinion that it does not matter whether the apostate is a freeman or a slave.

The Shafi´ites: If a Muslim becomes apostate -- Allah forbid! -- the imam should grant him three days' grace; he is not to be killed before this period expires, for the apostasy of a Muslim from his faith often results from his confusion. Therefore a grace period is necessary, so that he can reflect, and that the truth can become clear to him again. We, the Shafi´ites, have determined that this time should consist of three days, whether he asks for it or not.

It has been told about our master, Umar b. al-Khattab -- may Allah be pleased with him -- that a man was sent to him by Abu Mosa al-Ashaari. Umar asked him: "Do you have any good news?"; the man said, "Yes, a man apostatised from Islam, so we killed him." Umar said: "Did you first take him into custody for three days, giving him one loaf per day, so that he may repent? O Allah -- you are a witness -- I was not there, neither did I give any orders, nor did I concede to that action." This story was mentioned by Malek the imam in his book, Al-Muwattu, to the effect that Umar disapproved of what they did. Thus, one can conclude from this event that an apostate must be given a three-day time limit before he is put to death.

If the apostate repents, or utters the two main articles of faith (al-shahadatain), or confesses faith in the oneness of Allah (monotheism), he will be released. But if he does not repent, he is to be killed by the sword immediately. This punishment cannot be evaded, because apostasy is the most atrocious and severe form of blasphemy, and it deserves the cruellest judgement, which invalidates all of a Muslim's previous deeds. Allah says: "And for those among you who allow themselves to be led astray from their religion, and who die as unbelievers, their works are invalid now and in eternity" (Sura al-Baqara 2:217). If the apostate returns to Islam, he need not repeat the pilgrimage which had been performed before the apostasy. This is unlike the Hanafites who said: If the apostate repents, he must repeat the pilgrimage, because his apostasy has nullified it.

The Malikites: The imam should grant the apostate three days and nights -- beginning with the day on which his apostasy was committed, and not with the day of his unbelief or the day upon which the accusation was brought against him. The three days of confinement are to follow in succession, and the day on which the apostasy was proven should not be considered as part of the time limit, if it was preceded by dawn. During his confinement, he is to be given food and drink, which are to be paid out of his assets, while his wife and children are not being cared for by his assets. If he has no assets, he is to be cared for by the public treasury or House of Property (bait ulmal), whether he promises to repent or not. He is not to be beaten in prison, even if he persists in his apostasy. He is surely to be given many chances to repent within this time-limit, in order to prevent bloodshed or punishment resulting from doubts. This should clear up his doubts and give him time to reconsider, so that he may change his mind and repent. If the judge decides on his death before the end of this grace period, his decision is legally binding, because he has ruled on a disputed issue. If he repents after three days, he is to be released; but if he does not, he is to be killed on the third day, at sunset. His corpse is to be neither washed nor embalmed. He is to be buried neither in the cemeteries of the Muslims nor of the unbelievers (kuffar), for he is not one of them, having once been a Muslim. In fact, his body is to be thrown upon the ground as a public example.

The Hanbalites: There are two opinions on this issue. Some believe that the apostate should be given a period for repentance consisting of three days, while others are of the opinion that he is to be granted no time for reconsideration but should only be offered Islam. If he accepts the offer, he is to be set free; if not, he is to be put to death immediately.

This is no joke nor is it a baseless accusation.  Anyone who is flirting with Islam should know up front what every informed muslim in the world understands about apostasy regardless what an apologist might say in a forum like this.  If some individual imagines death is not required for apostasy from Islam, it hardly matters if 1 billion other muslims think your blood should be "shed without reservation".
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Cantor Krishnich on January 11, 2013, 10:56:18 PM
How come Islam is so iconoclastic? I watched an episode of Southpark the other day that was making fun of Family Guy and the Islamic prophet Muhammed was on the show, but his appearance was censored out because the network thought it would be offensive to air.

In 1999, Islamic art expert Wijdan Ali wrote a scholarly overview of the Muslim tradition of depicting Mohammed.... In that essay, Ali demonstrates that the prohibition against depicting Mohammed did not arise until as late as the 16th or 17th century (http://zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/islamic_mo_full/), despite the media's recent false claims that it has always been forbidden for Muslims to draw Mohammed. Until comparatively recently in Islamic history, it was perfectly common to show Mohammed, either in full (as revealed on this page), or with his face hidden (as shown on the next page). Even after the 17th century, up to modern times, Islamic depictions of Mohammed (especially in Shi'ite areas) continued to be produced.

I'm pretty sure that if he was depicted in South Park, it was for the wrong intentions and it was meant to be disrespectful lol. So that could the reason of the censoring. It is the orthodox tradition of Muslims not the make depictions of Allah/God or the Prophets. Whether or not this was always the practice, is a different story as there are many example of Persian and Islamic miniatures and art depicting the Prophets but never of God such as...

This one depicting Maryam and Isa (The Theotokos with Our Lord), notice the striking similarities with Christian iconography:
(http://mattstone.blogs.com/photos/christian_art_middle_east/virgin_mary_and_jesus_old_persian_miniature.jpg)

This one depicting depicting the birth of Muhammad, again there is striking similarity with Orthodox Christian iconography:
http://www.lacma.org/khan/4/images/6pu2.jpg]http://www.lacma.org/khan/4/images/6pu2.jpg]http://www.lacma.org/khan/4/images/6pu2.jpg (http://www.lacma.org/khan/4/images/6pu2.jpg)

This one depicting Muhammad and the Archangel Jibra'il (Gabriel):
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/Mohammed_receiving_revelation_from_the_angel_Gabriel.jpg)

This one depicting the Prophet Ibrahim' s (Abraham) sacrifice:
(http://www.amaana.org/arch/ismailibrahim.jpg)



 
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on January 30, 2013, 05:37:30 AM
Hi again folks,  I'm back, and lord willing I can answer a few more questions!


How interesting!

Care to educate us about the Twelfth Imam - the Mahdi?

Well Imam Mahdi is something majority of Muslims believe in (shias/sufis/sunnis...etc).

He's an individual that lord willing, will come at the right time to lead the world out of chaos and deception caused by the antichrist (dajjal).  He'll reveal the truths about our universe.  He'll be alongside the Messiah, as Jesus will defeat the antichrist.

Many eastern religions have talked about him... a savior that will come and remove all forms of tyranny and oppression-- then install justice and peaceful equality around the world.

Zoroastrian religion have Saoshyant  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saoshyant
Hindu religion have Kalki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalki
Buddhism religion have Maitreya http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya

Maybe at a latter time, we can start a new thread and talk about Eschatology in both Islam and Christianity.  I'll try to find good resource on this topic to share with you.

Just remember in Islam we believe that Dajjal starts it's wars against mankind spiritually, with the help of jinns.  Then in it's final stages of it's agenda (ruling the whole world by manipulating the cultural norms of all societies) he'll come in a physical form (will have one eye, and only people who are pious and have spiritual discernment will recognize he's the antichrist/dajjal).

At the same time, imam Mahdi will be fighting this creature... he'll fight him spiritually (with maybe the help of armies of angles and/or jinns), he'll fight physically (when the time is right). 

In the end we believe that good will defeat evil, so Imam Mahdi and Jesus will win at the end of the day and the some important divine truths about our universe will be revealed.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: FlickFlack on January 30, 2013, 05:50:43 AM
Is islam a violent religion? What is Jihad? Tell us something about the worship(pillars?) in Islam. What is the deal with Mecca?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on January 30, 2013, 05:57:42 AM
Do you believe we worship the same god? Do you believe that righteous individuals from the people of the book can go to Jannah?

+Thanks

To a degree yes.  I believe that Creator in Islam is the same Creator worshiped by Unitarian/nontrinitarian Christians.  Among the Trinitarian Christians, the 'father' is the same creator that muslims believe.  But the 'holy ghost' and the ' son' are something we don't agree with in terms of the Creator.


In terms of righteous individuals from other religions can go to Heaven... Yes indeed!

I believe even those from atheist/pagan background have the opportunity to go to heaven so long as...

they're open minded and question everything
they do good deeds (acts that doesn't negatively affect the heart/body)
they follow their intuition and pay attention to important patterns in life
repent for all the sins done in the past

As I said before, the Creator will put plenty of signs and signals to help you find the real truths about our universe.  The further you are from divine truths, the more truths that will come your way (via books, events, people that show up in your life, ...etc.). It's up to you to pay attention and accept these signs and do more research/reading/writing about that subject.  If you just dismiss these signs and say it's just a coincidence... then you don't really believe in an ordered universe created by the Lord.

Now in terms of the people of the book.... you have bibles and a strong moral code that you abide by.  You have an extra 'advantage'.  Now it's just a matter of study your religion as in depth as possible.... read the whole bible, read other bibles, ...etc.  Then read about other religions.  Keep doing this until you find the truth.  Your heart will know what the truth is.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on January 30, 2013, 06:03:27 AM
Why do Muslims deny the crucfixion and resurrection?..

lol... we don't deny crucifixion!!!

we just don't agree that Jesus died on the cross....we believe that it was made to appear that he died

my opinion and what other muslims believe as well is that the Creator allowed him to go into a state of deep sleep (hibernation) when the crucifixion happened
so he didn't feel any pain or die...

but when the time is right, Jesus will wake up from this hibernating and come out in the world and prove to everyone once and for all he's the real messiah....and the antichrist (the world leader) is a fraud
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: FlickFlack on January 30, 2013, 06:14:13 AM
Why do Muslims deny the crucfixion and resurrection?..

lol... we don't deny crucifixion!!!

we just don't agree that Jesus died on the cross....we believe that it was made to appear that he died

my opinion and what other muslims believe as well is that the Creator allowed him to go into a state of deep sleep (hibernation) when the crucifixion happened
so he didn't feel any pain or die...

but when the time is right, Jesus will wake up from this hibernating and come out in the world and prove to everyone once and for all he's the real messiah....and the antichrist (the world leader) is a fraud

Lol. I thought u guys thought Judas was made to look like Jesus and he died on the Cross instead of Him, or something like that.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on January 30, 2013, 06:16:35 AM
How come Islam is so iconoclastic? I watched an episode of Southpark the other day that was making fun of Family Guy and the Islamic prophet Muhammed was on the show, but his appearance was censored out because the network thought it would be offensive to air.

you have to understand that having images of divine leaders can cause problems when sharing the religion with others...  problems such as racisim

for example, if a mosque keep putting pictures of mohammed everywhere ...who was an arab

How do you think a non-muslim non-arabs feel?  He/she would get an initial impression that this religion is advocating a believe system that his/her race wasn't divine enough for the creator!

Hence, in Islam we want to have less emphasis on pictures of humans (especially of prophets)... and more emphasis on the invisible Creator, who created all of mankind with a great variety of features and color.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on January 30, 2013, 06:22:24 AM
Lol. I thought u guys thought Judas was made to look like Jesus and he died on the Cross instead of Him, or something like that.

yes some muslims believe that


but my belief is that Jesus was in a state of hibernation (in shia islam it's known as occultation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Occultation)

the reason I believe this is because of surah Kahf 18 ....
the '7 sleepers' who go into a cave and sleep for a few centuries then wake up to see society in a better state
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on January 30, 2013, 06:25:18 AM
WHY do muslims say that we are going to hell?

no we don't say that...

if you read one of the recent posts I made

so long as you stick to absolute morals and follow your intuition and question everything until you find answers, you won't go there
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Αριστοκλής on January 30, 2013, 06:26:06 AM
Hi again folks,  I'm back, and lord willing I can answer a few more questions!


How interesting!

Care to educate us about the Twelfth Imam - the Mahdi?

Well Imam Mahdi is something majority of Muslims believe in (shias/sufis/sunnis...etc).

He's an individual that lord willing, will come at the right time to lead the world out of chaos and deception caused by the antichrist (dajjal).  He'll reveal the truths about our universe.  He'll be alongside the Messiah, as Jesus will defeat the antichrist.

Many eastern religions have talked about him... a savior that will come and remove all forms of tyranny and oppression-- then install justice and peaceful equality around the world.

Zoroastrian religion have Saoshyant  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saoshyant
Hindu religion have Kalki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalki
Buddhism religion have Maitreya http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya

Maybe at a latter time, we can start a new thread and talk about Eschatology in both Islam and Christianity.  I'll try to find good resource on this topic to share with you.

Just remember in Islam we believe that Dajjal starts it's wars against mankind spiritually, with the help of jinns.  Then in it's final stages of it's agenda (ruling the whole world by manipulating the cultural norms of all societies) he'll come in a physical form (will have one eye, and only people who are pious and have spiritual discernment will recognize he's the antichrist/dajjal).

At the same time, imam Mahdi will be fighting this creature... he'll fight him spiritually (with maybe the help of armies of angles and/or jinns), he'll fight physically (when the time is right).  

In the end we believe that good will defeat evil, so Imam Mahdi and Jesus will win at the end of the day and the some important divine truths about our universe will be revealed.

No, we do not need to discuss our beliefs, but a bit more about the Madhi would have been appreciated.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on January 30, 2013, 06:35:24 AM
Dear Muslim person,

If there were truly "no compulsion in religion" (ie. Islam) as the Qu'ran says, why does the Qu'ran also enjoin muslims to punish apostasy with death?
Surah, verse?

I apologize for overstating the specificity of the Qu'ranic penalty for apostasy. I was misled by other zealous Christian commentary against it.  However, all 4 major schools of Islamic jurisprudence unanimously agree the penalty for apostasy IS death and I think it's fair to assume that all the major schools of Islamic jurisprudence certainly DO understand what the intent of the Qu'ran is regarding apostasy.  Here's a summary of their positions from a book called "The Penalties for Apostasy in Islam" by 'Abdurrahmani'l-Djaziri

Quote
[...]
Muslim scholars (imams) have said: Apostasy must be determined by the testimony of two upright adult witnesses whose accounts agree. When a judge asks how the Muslim fell from the faith, the witness must say, "He says such and such or does such and such."

All four imams (the founders of the four schools of Islamic law) -- may Allah have mercy upon them -- agree that the apostate whose fall from Islam is beyond doubt -- may Allah forbid it -- must be killed, and his blood must be spilled without reservation. The hypocrite and heretic (zindiq) who poses as a Muslim but has secretly remained an unbeliever must also be killed.

2. Calling the Apostate to Repentance

The Hanafites: When the Muslim falls away from Islam -- may Allah forbid it! -- he is first asked to return. If he has doubts, he is to express them; one can then clear up his doubts, for it may be that he truly has questions with regard to the faith -- questions in need of explanation. By this it is possible to deal with his evil deed (sharr) through the best of two possibilities: death or the acceptance of Islam. However, it remains desirable to offer him the acceptance of Islam again, although this is not obligatory, because the message had already been offered him once.

If he needs time to reconsider, it is desirable that the judge allow him a three-day extension, during which he is to remain in custody. If he accepts Islam thereafter, it is good; if not, he is to be killed, for Allah says to "kill those who believe in many gods" (Sura al-Tawba 9:5), without fixing a deadline. The Prophet also said, "Kill him who changes his religion," without mentioning a delay, because the apostate is surely a hostile unbeliever and no asylum seeker (musta'min) who has asked for protection; furthermore, he is no dhimmi (a non-Muslim under Islamic rule), for no poll tax is demanded of him. Therefore, he should be killed without reservation.

The Hanafites are of the opinion that it does not matter whether the apostate is a freeman or a slave.

The Shafi´ites: If a Muslim becomes apostate -- Allah forbid! -- the imam should grant him three days' grace; he is not to be killed before this period expires, for the apostasy of a Muslim from his faith often results from his confusion. Therefore a grace period is necessary, so that he can reflect, and that the truth can become clear to him again. We, the Shafi´ites, have determined that this time should consist of three days, whether he asks for it or not.

It has been told about our master, Umar b. al-Khattab -- may Allah be pleased with him -- that a man was sent to him by Abu Mosa al-Ashaari. Umar asked him: "Do you have any good news?"; the man said, "Yes, a man apostatised from Islam, so we killed him." Umar said: "Did you first take him into custody for three days, giving him one loaf per day, so that he may repent? O Allah -- you are a witness -- I was not there, neither did I give any orders, nor did I concede to that action." This story was mentioned by Malek the imam in his book, Al-Muwattu, to the effect that Umar disapproved of what they did. Thus, one can conclude from this event that an apostate must be given a three-day time limit before he is put to death.

If the apostate repents, or utters the two main articles of faith (al-shahadatain), or confesses faith in the oneness of Allah (monotheism), he will be released. But if he does not repent, he is to be killed by the sword immediately. This punishment cannot be evaded, because apostasy is the most atrocious and severe form of blasphemy, and it deserves the cruellest judgement, which invalidates all of a Muslim's previous deeds. Allah says: "And for those among you who allow themselves to be led astray from their religion, and who die as unbelievers, their works are invalid now and in eternity" (Sura al-Baqara 2:217). If the apostate returns to Islam, he need not repeat the pilgrimage which had been performed before the apostasy. This is unlike the Hanafites who said: If the apostate repents, he must repeat the pilgrimage, because his apostasy has nullified it.

The Malikites: The imam should grant the apostate three days and nights -- beginning with the day on which his apostasy was committed, and not with the day of his unbelief or the day upon which the accusation was brought against him. The three days of confinement are to follow in succession, and the day on which the apostasy was proven should not be considered as part of the time limit, if it was preceded by dawn. During his confinement, he is to be given food and drink, which are to be paid out of his assets, while his wife and children are not being cared for by his assets. If he has no assets, he is to be cared for by the public treasury or House of Property (bait ulmal), whether he promises to repent or not. He is not to be beaten in prison, even if he persists in his apostasy. He is surely to be given many chances to repent within this time-limit, in order to prevent bloodshed or punishment resulting from doubts. This should clear up his doubts and give him time to reconsider, so that he may change his mind and repent. If the judge decides on his death before the end of this grace period, his decision is legally binding, because he has ruled on a disputed issue. If he repents after three days, he is to be released; but if he does not, he is to be killed on the third day, at sunset. His corpse is to be neither washed nor embalmed. He is to be buried neither in the cemeteries of the Muslims nor of the unbelievers (kuffar), for he is not one of them, having once been a Muslim. In fact, his body is to be thrown upon the ground as a public example.

The Hanbalites: There are two opinions on this issue. Some believe that the apostate should be given a period for repentance consisting of three days, while others are of the opinion that he is to be granted no time for reconsideration but should only be offered Islam. If he accepts the offer, he is to be set free; if not, he is to be put to death immediately.

This is no joke nor is it a baseless accusation.  Anyone who is flirting with Islam should know up front what every informed muslim in the world understands about apostasy regardless what an apologist might say in a forum like this.  If some individual imagines death is not required for apostasy from Islam, it hardly matters if 1 billion other muslims think your blood should be "shed without reservation".


ummm you do know that I'm not a follower of the sunni school?

furthermore.... quran is the final word on these matters
there is no mention of punishment by death for apostasy

just because certain sects says so and make it into a standard procedure....doesn't make it right
the Creator will judge their rulings in the end
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on January 30, 2013, 07:01:01 AM
Is islam a violent religion?

If you look at my earlier posts in this thread, I address this concern.  I recommend you watch the animated film of the prophet to get a better idea.

Quote
What is Jihad?
It means 'struggle'
some misguided sects of the religion... like the Wahhabi sect have unfortunately abused this word and made it into a violent term

Quote
Tell us something about the worship(pillars?) in Islam.

Well we worship 5 times a day towards mecca... there are a lot of benefits to it.  The ritual we perform is very similar to yoga...it relaxes the body.

My belief is that it charges up (turns on) the 'chakras'.  

It also can help change your voice into a mesmerizing form (ie. deepen your voice to give you confidence ...etc.) ...because part of the exercise is very similar to the roll-down exercise http://voiceguy.ca/blog/voiceguy/roll-down <-- this is an exercise that is very common in voice training programs

Quote
What is the deal with Mecca?

We pray towards mecca, and those close to mecca go around it 7 times.

I encourage you to read about Telluric currents, ley lines and earth vertices.

The following is my opinion:

It's like a 'spiritual blackhole'.  Where the center is the focal point of all muslims.  Our praying ritual has a wave-like characteristic...and 'spiritual (requesting) information' is 'flowing' to this center point.  All that 'spiritual information' is then bundled up at the center of kabba (in mecca) and then sent to the Creator.

Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on January 30, 2013, 07:21:08 AM
No, we do not need to discuss our beliefs, but a bit more about the Madhi would have been appreciated.

sure... I'll talk about him in more details in the future.

There are hadiths that say he'll come from the shia regions near Afganistan and/or Iran <--- this is why so much conflicts are happening there
and the push for war is mainly with Iran and other shia regions

I believe that dajjal and his jinns are deceiving western armies to start major wars and destroy that region to a point of utter chaos so that it makes it extremely difficult for Imam Mahdi to carry out his mission.


If you are interested in learning more, I recommend this english lecture

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8_DGU4JnOU


Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: psalm110 on January 30, 2013, 08:42:43 AM
If I do not embrace Islam, the quran and mohammed as the final prophet do I go to hell ?.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: FlickFlack on January 30, 2013, 11:21:27 AM
Is islam a violent religion?

If you look at my earlier posts in this thread, I address this concern.  I recommend you watch the animated film of the prophet to get a better idea.

Quote
What is Jihad?
It means 'struggle'
some misguided sects of the religion... like the Wahhabi sect have unfortunately abused this word and made it into a violent term

Quote
Tell us something about the worship(pillars?) in Islam.

Well we worship 5 times a day towards mecca... there are a lot of benefits to it.  The ritual we perform is very similar to yoga...it relaxes the body.

My belief is that it charges up (turns on) the 'chakras'.  

It also can help change your voice into a mesmerizing form (ie. deepen your voice to give you confidence ...etc.) ...because part of the exercise is very similar to the roll-down exercise http://voiceguy.ca/blog/voiceguy/roll-down <-- this is an exercise that is very common in voice training programs

Quote
What is the deal with Mecca?

We pray towards mecca, and those close to mecca go around it 7 times.

I encourage you to read about Telluric currents, ley lines and earth vertices.

The following is my opinion:

It's like a 'spiritual blackhole'.  Where the center is the focal point of all muslims.  Our praying ritual has a wave-like characteristic...and 'spiritual (requesting) information' is 'flowing' to this center point.  All that 'spiritual information' is then bundled up at the center of kabba (in mecca) and then sent to the Creator.



If Jihad is struggle(i thought it meant holy war), what is Jihad all about?

Is it true that muslims are obligated to do a pilgrimage to Mecca at least one time in their lives? Can a non-Muslim do this pilgrimage?

Also what are the pillars of Islam religion?

What kind of carpets do u use?

Does Islam use Mosaic?

Is Islam a religion concerned of Hygiene? If so , how?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: FlickFlack on January 30, 2013, 11:23:19 AM
If I do not embrace Islam, the quran and mohammed as the final prophet do I go to hell ?.

I think so. Salaam!

Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: FlickFlack on January 30, 2013, 11:25:06 AM
Lol. I thought u guys thought Judas was made to look like Jesus and he died on the Cross instead of Him, or something like that.

yes some muslims believe that


but my belief is that Jesus was in a state of hibernation (in shia islam it's known as occultation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Occultation)

the reason I believe this is because of surah Kahf 18 ....
the '7 sleepers' who go into a cave and sleep for a few centuries then wake up to see society in a better state

That link seems to be more about the Mahdi than Jesus(Isa). So was Jesus crucified or not? I don't understand what you are meaning by your point of view concerning that.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Jetavan on January 30, 2013, 12:18:28 PM
It's always Sunni in Philadelphia.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Ansgar on January 30, 2013, 12:21:53 PM
If I do not embrace Islam, the quran and mohammed as the final prophet do I go to hell ?.
I think it depends on who you ask. I have heard some muslims say that all the peoples of the book will be saved.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Феофан on January 30, 2013, 02:02:44 PM

ummm you do know that I'm not a follower of the sunni school?

furthermore.... quran is the final word on these matters
there is no mention of punishment by death for apostasy

just because certain sects says so and make it into a standard procedure....doesn't make it right
the Creator will judge their rulings in the end

The "certain sects" you refer to together comprise 75% to 90% of the world muslim population with your particular sect (shiah) making up as little as 10%.  Of course the Sunni "ruling" on apostasy isn't right, but then neither are Shiah rulings.  The Qu'ran is NOT the word of God.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: JamesR on January 30, 2013, 02:48:07 PM
I have a question. You know how in Christianity there is a big debate between Protestants and EO/RCs about whether baptism should be done on infants? Is there a similar debate in Islam about whether or not parents could take their infant on the pilgrimage and thus complete the pillar for them? Or, does it have to be done in adulthood?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: ialmisry on January 30, 2013, 03:34:16 PM
I have a question. You know how in Christianity there is a big debate between Protestants and EO/RCs about whether baptism should be done on infants? Is there a similar debate in Islam about whether or not parents could take their infant on the pilgrimage and thus complete the pillar for them? Or, does it have to be done in adulthood?
No, the debate doesn't happen, because they think everyone is born Muslim until their parents make them something else around 7.  But yes, the pilgrimage has to be done in adulthood (around 12 I think, whenever prayers become obligatory).
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on January 30, 2013, 06:16:58 PM
If I do not embrace Islam, the quran and mohammed as the final prophet do I go to hell ?.

this is something only the Creator knows

your chances of going to hell or heaven depends on the amount of sins and good deeds you do

you could embrace Islam, the quran and the message from mohammed and still go to hell...
for example you perform a certain act that you were ignorant about the fact that it was a sin
for example taking large loans that are based on interest (usury)  --- this is a sin
and if this sin outweighs your good deeds... you'll go to hell
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: JamesR on January 30, 2013, 06:22:04 PM
Could I masturbate in Islam?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: dzheremi on January 30, 2013, 06:22:47 PM
Oh, good grief, James...really? Really? ::)

Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: orthonorm on January 30, 2013, 06:25:03 PM
Oh, good grief, James...really? Really? ::)



Why not? This is a big deal for him and a lot of men evidently and women from what the media tells me, so why not ask?

The answer might surprise you along with the rationale.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: dzheremi on January 30, 2013, 06:26:38 PM
Nothing in Islam would surprise me.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on January 30, 2013, 06:45:50 PM
If Jihad is struggle(i thought it meant holy war), what is Jihad all about?

Jihad is a term used to describe the struggle someone is going through.

For example in english we say ' he's going through detox to get out of a drug addiction'

in arabic you would use the word 'jihad'

Quote
Is it true that muslims are obligated to do a pilgrimage to Mecca at least one time in their lives? Can a non-Muslim do this pilgrimage?

No only if you have the money and resource you are suppose to go there at least once in your life.

Why would non-Muslim want to do this pilgrimage?  Not only is it expensive, it could be a very confusing time for them if they don't understand the rituals.

Quote
Also what are the pillars of Islam religion?

Here are the pillars of the shia school:

    Salah - Prayer
    Sawm - Fasting
    Zakāt - similar to Sunni Islam, but only applies to cattle, silver, gold, dates, raisins, wheat, and barley but not money.
    Khums - a taxation during war time
    Hajj - Pilgrimage
    Jihad - Struggle through all the potential addictions life throws at you
    Amr-bil-Maroof - speaking the truth
    Nahi Anil Munkar - forbidding the sin
    Tawalla - expressing love towards Good.
    Tabarra - expressing disassociation and hatred towards Evil.


Quote
What kind of carpets do u use?

??? lol I don't understand the point of this question.

I use persian rugs in my home.

If you're talking about prayer mat........ it can be anything made out of organic (natural) material.

Quote
Does Islam use Mosaic?

By mosaic I assume you're saying does islam encourage art?

Yes art created with good intentions is beautiful and is encouraged in the religion.  The arabic written in the quran is very artistic...because it's poetic.

A lot of mosques around the world have beautiful patterns on the walls.

Good intention creativity is encouraged in Islam.

Quote
Is Islam a religion concerned of Hygiene? If so , how?

Yes before every prayer we wash ourselves... to activate our 'chakras'.

We consider bodily fluids like blood, semen, ...etcs to be 'najis', and have to wash ourselves asap.

Also the modern soap we use today was invented by muslims.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: orthonorm on January 30, 2013, 07:03:01 PM
Also the modern soap we use today was invented by muslims.

I love you buddy, but this is not true. I have no idea what you mean by "modern soap".

I sorta make soap for a living or whatever you call what I do and I know a little about its history.

The grain of truth in your statement is that like much of what would develop in chemistry, Islamic thinkers systematized in a manner which seems more modern than their predecessors what they observed and how they applied analytic thought both to formula and process design.

However, soap has been around for forever in some form or another. And "modern" soap is a function of modernity (which given the rather centralized method of manufacture and distribution of soap within the Islamic world of the Middle Ages, I could see how one would begin to equate the two). 
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Romaios on January 30, 2013, 07:56:07 PM
Could I masturbate in Islam?

I think that would topple the pillar of Jihad.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: ialmisry on January 30, 2013, 08:11:29 PM
Could I masturbate in Islam?

I think that would topple the pillar of Jihad.  :laugh:
I know it invalidates the prayers, pilgrimage etc. and you can't touch the Quran.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on January 30, 2013, 08:23:16 PM
Lol. I thought u guys thought Judas was made to look like Jesus and he died on the Cross instead of Him, or something like that.

yes some muslims believe that


but my belief is that Jesus was in a state of hibernation (in shia islam it's known as occultation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Occultation)

the reason I believe this is because of surah Kahf 18 ....
the '7 sleepers' who go into a cave and sleep for a few centuries then wake up to see society in a better state

That link seems to be more about the Mahdi than Jesus(Isa). So was Jesus crucified or not? I don't understand what you are meaning by your point of view concerning that.

yes, did you see my other posts?

Many muslims like myself believe that he (Jesus) was crucified.    However during the whole ordeal he went into deep sleep (hibernation) so he didn't die.... just made to appear he was dead.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on January 30, 2013, 08:28:08 PM

ummm you do know that I'm not a follower of the sunni school?

furthermore.... quran is the final word on these matters
there is no mention of punishment by death for apostasy

just because certain sects says so and make it into a standard procedure....doesn't make it right
the Creator will judge their rulings in the end

The "certain sects" you refer to together comprise 75% to 90% of the world muslim population with your particular sect (shiah) making up as little as 10%.  Of course the Sunni "ruling" on apostasy isn't right, but then neither are Shiah rulings.  The Qu'ran is NOT the word of God.

the devil works his magic through the madness of crowds

there was period of time in the western world that making black people slave was acceptable
just because the mob says it's acceptable

doesn't mean the Creator says it's acceptable

We believe that the Quran is the word of the Creator, and use it to judge these matters.  If someone doesn't want to be muslim, that's their choice, no muslim is suppose to hurt them when they make such a personal choice. 
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: JamesR on January 30, 2013, 08:41:44 PM
...there was period of time in the western world that making black people slave was acceptable
just because the mob says it's acceptable

Well what about the fact that more Black people died in the Arabic slave trade than the western slave trade because their religion (Islam) said it was acceptable?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on January 30, 2013, 09:11:22 PM
Could I masturbate in Islam?

No you can't.  It's a sin, and there is a verse in the quran talking about 'protecting private parts'.

You need to take some time and struggle through such an addiction, until you reach a point where you don't constantly lust and think about women.

If you don't have a wife, wet dreams is the much better/healthier alternative.  

Some advice to keep your mind off of lust--

- try not to watch any movies, television shows, and any other media formats... that stirs negative emotions in your body (ie. lust)
- try not to listen to any music
- try to avoid magazines, shopping catalogs, flyers, ad mail
- try not to go to malls, or crowded places where females dress provocatively
- where a hat, and maybe sunglasses to reduce your chances of lusting
- if you have a desktop computer in your room, try to use it in your living room
- if necessary, try to use the internet only in public places like school, library, cafe shop, church, mosque, ...etc.
- if you want to go to the gym, try to go into one where females have a separate gym
- don't gaze at women, look down and far away if they're passing you on the sidewalk
- work on not having lustful thoughts, keep your mind positive
- finally put your energy in more productive activities, like reading and gaining more knowledge, or diy projects (http://www.instructables.com/tag/type-id/)


Once you get into a state where you don't lust at women when you meet them, they'll quickly sense your emotions and they'll be much more open and friendlier to you.  The women you are very attracted to right now.... will be just as attracted to you, once you are in the right mindset and give off positive vibe-- where you don't lust and always focus on marriage/family.  Women can subconsciously tell if you're lusting for them or not.



Now if you on the other hand don't change your behavior here is what's going to happen...

as I mentioned earlier in this thread, the jinns siphon 'spiritual energy' from you whenever you commit a sin
they feed off of negative emotions like lust, anger, jealousy, ...etc.

if you are a pious/religious man and you sin (give off negative energy)... then they'll really love that
they love the energy of innocent/religious people

once they see that you commit sin, they'll manipulate/trick people around you so you commit even more sins and give them more power negative energy for them to feed off of


now when you 'play with yourself' and don't repent.... the jinns will recognize this, and they will make sure you'll never have  a lasting/happy relationship

they'll do whatever they can to destroy any relationship you get in...

why?

because they know that when you're by yourself, you're going to keep lusting after women and that benefits them


also the women you lust after...will also be affected spiritually

they'll deceive her to dress more provocatively, to tease you more, to create more lust after you

sometimes if there is a particular type of females you lust after.... the jinns will do whatever they can, to make sure you never get to marry those types of females

they'll work on keeping you in a state of misery and committing sin and give them powerful negative energy
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: ialmisry on January 30, 2013, 09:38:53 PM
Lol. I thought u guys thought Judas was made to look like Jesus and he died on the Cross instead of Him, or something like that.

yes some muslims believe that


but my belief is that Jesus was in a state of hibernation (in shia islam it's known as occultation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Occultation)

the reason I believe this is because of surah Kahf 18 ....
the '7 sleepers' who go into a cave and sleep for a few centuries then wake up to see society in a better state

That link seems to be more about the Mahdi than Jesus(Isa). So was Jesus crucified or not? I don't understand what you are meaning by your point of view concerning that.

yes, did you see my other posts?

Many muslims like myself believe that he (Jesus) was crucified.    However during the whole ordeal he went into deep sleep (hibernation) so he didn't die.... just made to appear he was dead.
He died.  Everyone there-which doesn't include the Quran-agreed on that, and as we say every Divine Liturgy "he that saw it bares record, and his record is true: and he knows that he says the truth, that you might believe."
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: dzheremi on January 30, 2013, 09:46:22 PM
Amen. I've always found it odd that the Qur'an claims that there was disaccord among Christians on this account (from Surat an-Nisa...all that stuff about "those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow"), when it is proclaimed in every liturgy in every church which recites the Nicene Creed (in addition to the explicit references in the various liturgies of the Orthodox Church). Oh, Islam, thou doth protest too much! Trying to put their heresies into Christian mouths as a means of buttressing their silly fable... ::)
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: JamesR on January 30, 2013, 09:48:45 PM
Isa has a point. If everyone prior to the Quran believed that Jesus truly died, and many of them witnessed it and/or at least knew people who had, why should we believe what one person said in a book that was written something like 6-8 centuries later by someone who wasn't even there?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on January 30, 2013, 10:45:20 PM
He died.  Everyone there-which doesn't include the Quran-agreed on that, and as we say every Divine Liturgy "he that saw it bares record, and his record is true: and he knows that he says the truth, that you might believe."

Remember, in Islam we believe that Jesus is a prophet chosen by the Creator.. he is not the Creator.  So this is muslim's belief.

Now if the Qur'an said that Jesus died and he'll come back to our world again... then there would be a contradiction in regards to the concept that every soul will taste death once.  People will start to believe in things like reincarnation.  

There is a lot of problems in societies that believe in reincarnation... for example the wealthiest individuals will not give charity to the poor, saying that the poor must suffer for what they did in the previous life.  
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on January 30, 2013, 10:48:25 PM
Also the modern soap we use today was invented by muslims.

I love you buddy, but this is not true. I have no idea what you mean by "modern soap".

I sorta make soap for a living or whatever you call what I do and I know a little about its history.

The grain of truth in your statement is that like much of what would develop in chemistry, Islamic thinkers systematized in a manner which seems more modern than their predecessors what they observed and how they applied analytic thought both to formula and process design.

However, soap has been around for forever in some form or another. And "modern" soap is a function of modernity (which given the rather centralized method of manufacture and distribution of soap within the Islamic world of the Middle Ages, I could see how one would begin to equate the two). 

You're right, maybe the word 'invent' wasn't the right one.  Reinvent maybe?

You know more about this subject and I'm sure you agree that Muslims during the islamic golden age made a big contribution to this field.  I simply wanted to highlight the importance of good hygiene in the religion.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Jetavan on January 30, 2013, 10:49:39 PM
There is a lot of problems in societies that believe in reincarnation... for example the wealthiest individuals will not give charity to the poor, saying that the poor must suffer for what they did in the previous life.  
Belief in reincarnation can both encourage or discourage giving charity to the poor; it depends upon which particular form of reincarnational belief is adhered to.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on January 30, 2013, 10:54:41 PM
...there was period of time in the western world that making black people slave was acceptable
just because the mob says it's acceptable

Well what about the fact that more Black people died in the Arabic slave trade than the western slave trade because their religion (Islam) said it was acceptable?

I don't know how the arabic slave trade relates to the point I was making in my other post.

In Islam the rule is clear, free slaves asap.  You're not allowed to kill slaves.

If the arabs did this when they were trading slaves, then they sinned and will be punished for it.

Again, just because the mob does something under the banner of a religion.....doesn't mean that this is how the religion is suppose to be followed.

Again, Satan does his work through the madness of irrational crowds.

This is why you need to question everything around you, the traditions you follow, the culture you live in.  This is a sign to the Creator that you're working hard finding the truth, and He'll bring you divine signs to get you there.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on January 30, 2013, 11:01:34 PM
There is a lot of problems in societies that believe in reincarnation... for example the wealthiest individuals will not give charity to the poor, saying that the poor must suffer for what they did in the previous life.  
Belief in reincarnation can both encourage or discourage giving charity to the poor; it depends upon which particular form of reincarnational belief is adhered to.

reincarnation exists in paganism, and witchcraft

there are some people who strongly believe it, and form secret societies and making deals with demons thinking that this society they formed will help them out in the next life

they won't care if they sinned and hurt others in this life.....they simply think that they'll come back and be able to join this society because they only accept the people who do the worst evils
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: theistgal on January 30, 2013, 11:24:10 PM
Why do we hear so many reports about women in Islamic countries being punished, even executed, for adultery, while the man involved gets off with a slap on the wrist?

And why do some Islamic cultures punish women who are victims of rape or incest? Shouldn't the perpetrators of these crimes be punished, not the victims?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: orthonorm on January 30, 2013, 11:39:30 PM
Isa has a point. If everyone prior to the Quran believed that Jesus truly died, and many of them witnessed it and/or at least knew people who had, why should we believe what one person said in a book that was written something like 6-8 centuries later by someone who wasn't even there?

Some Christians didn't even believe Jesus was God. That He was human. Etc.

Of course Isa and company will chime that they were not Christians, well here we are at begging the question.

James, don't fall for the reductionist apologetics of Isa and Jeremy. It's weak sauce.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: orthonorm on January 30, 2013, 11:41:04 PM
Why do we hear so many reports about women in Islamic countries being punished, even executed, for adultery, while the man involved gets off with a slap on the wrist?

And why do some Islamic cultures punish women who are victims of rape or incest? Shouldn't the perpetrators of these crimes be punished, not the victims?

You can't extrapolate the answer from the many other such questions he has already addressed?

This is rhetoric.

True teaching of Islam.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on January 30, 2013, 11:42:18 PM
Why do we hear so many reports about women in Islamic countries being punished, even executed, for adultery, while the man involved gets off with a slap on the wrist?

And why do some Islamic cultures punish women who are victims of rape or incest? Shouldn't the perpetrators of these crimes be punished, not the victims?

I discussed this topic in the earlier posts in this thread.  Victims should not be punished... if they are then the whole community will suffer for it.  That's why much of these cultures are struggling with poverty and destitution.  The Creator will only bless those who follows His way.

In regards to adultery, just remember, it is against the religion to execute someone for adultery.  If a man and women commit adultery in a public setting in an islamic community where 4 people witness the act, it is required that the community leaders punished these two individuals publicly - but not execute them.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Romaios on January 30, 2013, 11:53:42 PM
Isa has a point. If everyone prior to the Quran believed that Jesus truly died, and many of them witnessed it and/or at least knew people who had, why should we believe what one person said in a book that was written something like 6-8 centuries later by someone who wasn't even there?

For Muslims, I guess the answer is simple: the divine authority of the Qu'ran makes its version of how things happened incomparably more trustworthy than the testimony of any human witness. Even if it goes against what all people would have seen back then. Allah always knows better.   

Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Romaios on January 31, 2013, 12:04:03 AM
as I mentioned earlier in this thread, the jinns siphon 'spiritual energy' from you whenever you commit a sin
they feed off of negative emotions like lust, anger, jealousy, ...etc.

This bears a curious resemblance to the teachings of (Hassidic?) Judaism on the subject of pegam habrit (literally, "the defilement of the covenant" - brit here also means the organ that bears the mark of the covenant):

http://www.briskodesh.org/pages/bris/spilling-seed.htm (http://www.briskodesh.org/pages/bris/spilling-seed.htm)

http://www.truekabbalah.org/pages/Documents4/k00215.htm (http://www.truekabbalah.org/pages/Documents4/k00215.htm)

What might make Shi'a Islam more appealing to James is the possibility of contracting a temporary marriage. Maybe fibonacci could tell us more about this.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: FlickFlack on January 31, 2013, 01:15:05 AM
Lol. I thought u guys thought Judas was made to look like Jesus and he died on the Cross instead of Him, or something like that.

yes some muslims believe that


but my belief is that Jesus was in a state of hibernation (in shia islam it's known as occultation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Occultation)

the reason I believe this is because of surah Kahf 18 ....
the '7 sleepers' who go into a cave and sleep for a few centuries then wake up to see society in a better state

That link seems to be more about the Mahdi than Jesus(Isa). So was Jesus crucified or not? I don't understand what you are meaning by your point of view concerning that.

yes, did you see my other posts?

Many muslims like myself believe that he (Jesus) was crucified.    However during the whole ordeal he went into deep sleep (hibernation) so he didn't die.... just made to appear he was dead.

I heard that it tools people days and weeks to die on the cross?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: FlickFlack on January 31, 2013, 01:15:05 AM
If Jihad is struggle(i thought it meant holy war), what is Jihad all about?

Jihad is a term used to describe the struggle someone is going through.

For example in english we say ' he's going through detox to get out of a drug addiction'

in arabic you would use the word 'jihad'

I would like to hear more about Jihad.
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Is it true that muslims are obligated to do a pilgrimage to Mecca at least one time in their lives? Can a non-Muslim do this pilgrimage?

No only if you have the money and resource you are suppose to go there at least once in your life.

Why would non-Muslim want to do this pilgrimage?  Not only is it expensive, it could be a very confusing time for them if they don't understand the rituals.

Why wouldn't they? Mecca is certaintly a religious attraction, through its tradition,its light architecture and all the pious people visiting there as in the most holiest of places.

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Also what are the pillars of Islam religion?

Here are the pillars of the shia school:

    Salah - Prayer
    Sawm - Fasting
    Zakāt - similar to Sunni Islam, but only applies to cattle, silver, gold, dates, raisins, wheat, and barley but not money.
    Khums - a taxation during war time
    Hajj - Pilgrimage
    Jihad - Struggle through all the potential addictions life throws at you
    Amr-bil-Maroof - speaking the truth
    Nahi Anil Munkar - forbidding the sin
    Tawalla - expressing love towards Good.
    Tabarra - expressing disassociation and hatred towards Evil.


Thanks. Is a muslim obligated to do all this pillars? What risks are there if he doesn't?
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What kind of carpets do u use?

??? lol I don't understand the point of this question.

I use persian rugs in my home.

If you're talking about prayer mat........ it can be anything made out of organic (natural) material.

Nice. I use persian rugs in my home also. Tell me more about those prayer mats please.

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Does Islam use Mosaic?

By mosaic I assume you're saying does islam encourage art?

Yes art created with good intentions is beautiful and is encouraged in the religion.  The arabic written in the quran is very artistic...because it's poetic.

A lot of mosques around the world have beautiful patterns on the walls.

Good intention creativity is encouraged in Islam.

I was talking in terms of architecture(mosaics,etc).. What architecture and art do you use in your worship and at you mosques? What does Islam say of Icons?
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Is Islam a religion concerned of Hygiene? If so , how?

Yes before every prayer we wash ourselves... to activate our 'chakras'.

We consider bodily fluids like blood, semen, ...etcs to be 'najis', and have to wash ourselves asap.

Also the modern soap we use today was invented by muslims.

Do you have any religious rules about shaving the hair body, probably even in intimate parts? Do you actually believe in chakras? Where is that coming from? Can you tell us more about that?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Severian on January 31, 2013, 10:47:27 PM
Does your sect of Shi'ism curse the Sahaba? What do you think of the controversial Kuwaiti Shi'ite Cleric Yasser al-Habib?

(http://alqatrah.net/en/edara/pic/SheikhYasser06.jpg)

Thanks again for your time.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: theistgal on February 01, 2013, 02:47:20 AM
Why do we hear so many reports about women in Islamic countries being punished, even executed, for adultery, while the man involved gets off with a slap on the wrist?

And why do some Islamic cultures punish women who are victims of rape or incest? Shouldn't the perpetrators of these crimes be punished, not the victims?

I discussed this topic in the earlier posts in this thread.  Victims should not be punished... if they are then the whole community will suffer for it.  That's why much of these cultures are struggling with poverty and destitution.  The Creator will only bless those who follows His way.

In regards to adultery, just remember, it is against the religion to execute someone for adultery.  If a man and women commit adultery in a public setting in an islamic community where 4 people witness the act, it is required that the community leaders punished these two individuals publicly - but not execute them.

Thanks. Sorry to make you repeat yourself; I confess I didn't have the energy to read the whole thread.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: xariskai on February 01, 2013, 03:15:10 AM
"...you can lie if that will keep you from evil or if it will result in prosperity" -Gazoli Saibin, Ehia Al-owlom Al-Den/A Revival of the Religious Books (Cairo: Maktabet al-Turas, 1971), pp. 3, 137.




I didn't notice an answer to this one; forgive me if there was one and I missed it.

Three quick questions about the impossibility of faithful Muslim + non-Muslim friendship.

1. Can faithful Muslims genuinely befriend Christians?

Qur'an 5.51: "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."
(please also compare many similar verses from Qur'an and Hadith here: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/009-friends-with-christians-jews.htm )

2. This second question I hate to even ask as it makes me sad. If a Muslim even seemed to be a genuine friend to a non-Muslim, or perhaps even if they considered themselves friends to a non-Muslim despite the apparent wording of the passages above, considering the following do you think it would be fully rational for a non-Muslim to regard a Muslim as trustworthy as a friend?

"If you can't cut your enemy's hand, kiss it" -Al-Mansowry, Al-taib Wal kabith/The Pure and the Unpure, p. 199.

"Know this, that lying is not sin by itself, but if it brings harm to you it could be ugly. However you can lie if that will keep you from evil or if it will result in prosperity" -Gazoli Saibin, Ehia Al-owlom Al-Den/A Revival of the Religious Books (Cairo: Maktabet al-Turas, 1971), pp. 3, 137.

Of course such does not prevent a Christian from being a friend to a Muslim even if their friendship is reciprocated by duplicity or even persecution/hatred/subjugation etc. as such is our duty before God:

Matthew 5:43-48:  “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

1 Jn 4:7-8: "Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love."

Matthew 7:12: "So in everything do unto others as you would have them do unto you, for this sums up the law and the prophets."

3. Finally, since the teaching of the above three verses from the Bible seems to contradict what the Qur'an teaches about how believers should treat other people whether friend or enemy at the most basic level, would you say that these teachings are corruptions of the original teaching of Christ? Would you say this even though there is not a single early manuscript of the New Testament, or early lectionary, or teaching from the earliest fathers, or early version of the New Testament (translations of the New Testament into other languages) that has the slightest hint of any contrary teaching by Jesus Christ?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Severian on February 01, 2013, 09:03:56 AM
Does your sect of Shi'ism curse the Sahaba? What do you think of the controversial Kuwaiti Shi'ite Cleric Yasser al-Habib?

(http://alqatrah.net/en/edara/pic/SheikhYasser06.jpg)

Thanks again for your time.
Also, while it is well-known that the Shii'ites do not consider the Sahaba in general to be Muslim, especially the famous Sahaba (e.g. Abu Bakr, Omar, and Othman), I have heard some Shia say that some of the Sahaba were true believers that remained Muslims after Muhammad's death. Who were these Sahaba who remained loyal to Islam (from the Shi'ite POV)? What were their names?

Thanks again.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Santagranddad on February 01, 2013, 09:29:15 AM
We have here a very recent rape case where the judge did not send the young to prison because he had been taught at the madrasah that women were worth less than a lollipop that fallen on the ground!

As I write this I am conscious of the history of attacks in Tahrir Square, Cairo, on women by groups of men over the two years since their Arab Spring.
Title: Asking about complex things
Post by: Keble on February 02, 2013, 11:07:53 AM
If you don't mind me asking, but did you study science, math, engineering, ...etc?
If you did, do you remember studying complex numbers.... like i = sqrt(-1) .   You know, most people just accept that sqrt(-1) is ok and just use it.  But for a professional mathematicians who're doing research at the front line, will need to rationalize the meaning of sqrt(-1)..... and so they'll have to study the history of the subject, to see where the idea came from and how it was widely accepted.  Btw, complex numbers means that the number is 2-dimentional, where the real part is a vector on the x-axis, and the imagenary part is a vector on the y-axis, and the resultant vector is the complex number.

Well, I am a professional mathematician, according to the Regents of the University of Maryland College Park, and I can tell you we didn't study this, nor did we need to. Mathematical concepts are, after all, utterly abstract, so it is not necessary to explore the history of the field's development to understand them. Indeed, often it is confusing to study them that way, because frequently the early versions of an idea are not well-formed. That tends to be even more true of natural science, as there is a lot of bad understanding in the history of most fields (which is, after all, why they progress in the first place).
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Ebor on February 02, 2013, 11:46:31 AM
This is the rest of a reply from some time back now that the OP has returned


Quote from: Ebor
Well, one question is: Is it the function of the book to refer to everyone who may have been historically involved in a subject or is it focused on a narrower field?  Why should any book on optics have a few sentences on Al-Hazen? What about references to the ancient Mesopotamians, Egyptians, Greeks and Romans who did things with Optics?  From my point should I expect that the English Bishop Robert Grosseteste or Roger Bacon be mentioned in optics texts because they did work in that area?   If the purpose of a text is to instruct on a particular subject technically, the writer(s) may not think that historical background is necessary.

Those who truly want to develop an intuition for a scientific subject, like optical physics....... it's very important to study the history of the subject.  To understand where these formulas originated.  You don't really learn by just memorizing a few equations and not making the effort to find out where they come from.

Al-Hazen is widely believed to be the father of optics.. because he most likely made the most non-trivial contributions to the field.  Sure, scientist from ancient civilizations made theories on the subject... but Al-Hazen discredit most of those ideas with simple arguments and revolutionaries the subject with different way of thinking.  

"most likely made"?  According to whom?  By whom is Al-Hazen "believed to be the father of optics"?  Can you give names please?  As I wrote there were many before him who worked in this area.  What do you mean by "non-trivial contributions" please?  In science any advance or bit of knowledge is useful.  Can you state in your own words what Al-Hazen "discredited" or revolutionized?

Quote from: fibonacci
Again, historical background is very necessary to develop an intuition for the subject.

I would say that knowing the historical background of a subject is very necessary to have an understanding and not just "intuition".  Real history is based on facts of time and place and persons and sources, it is not independent of reasoning or data.  And, no offense in meant, but you have not presented support for some of your ideas or have changed them when presented with countering information such as that about the copy of the Quran in Uzbekistan.  

Quote from: fibonacci

 But for a professional mathematicians who're doing research at the front line, will need to rationalize the meaning of sqrt(-1)..... and so they'll have to study the history of the subject, to see where the idea came from and how it was widely accepted.  Btw, complex numbers means that the number is 2-dimentional, where the real part is a vector on the x-axis, and the imagenary part is a vector on the y-axis, and the resultant vector is the complex number.

I know something about complex numbers and the square root of -1, but there is a professional mathematician or two here on OC.net, so I'll leave your idea of what they do to them.


Quote from: fibonacci
Quote from: Ebor
I would not give Al-Jazari the title of "father of Robotics" when there were automata of various kinds in many places and times that pre-date him. There are accounts of them from ancient China, Egypt, Greece and Rome. Technology is more of a continuum with people building on what came before.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automata


A lot of experts disagree... because he invented the first programmable humanoid robot.

Sure other individuals outside of Europe needs to be credited as well.  The overall point that I'm making, is as a whole, the Muslim scholars are not getting the recognition they deserve in western textbooks-- it would help today's scientist a lot when they're trying to develop an intuition for the subject.

What "experts"?  Can you give some names and citations to where they write/say this please?

If materials on these subjects have not been translated into other languages, or have not been available to European/American etc. scholars or in such grievous cases have been destroyed by other Muslims who considered science texts and other works heretical.  Here is a link to a paper that gives information on some of the instances where libraries were broken up or destroyed by Muslims for various reasons including sectarian disagreements or because "An interest in polite literature, science and especially philosophy was looked upon as unnecessary and even detrimental to the truly religious life" (page 26 of the file):

http://www.ghazali.org/articles/rsm-ajsll-35-p1.pdf

These institutions that were destroyed include the House of Science in Fatimid Egypt, the library of Cordova in Al-Andaluz,  and others.

So the lack of information on such subjects cannot be considered simply due to "European" preferences or any sort of "anti-Islamic" ideas.

Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on February 03, 2013, 02:22:06 AM
I would like to hear more about Jihad.

Jihad like I said it means 'stuggle' or detox.  Sacrificing short-term pain for long-term benefit (like going through rehab and getting out of a drug addiction).

That's all I know about this concept.

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Why wouldn't they? Mecca is certaintly a religious attraction, through its tradition,its light architecture and all the pious people visiting there as in the most holiest of places.

Pilgrimage is a very very busy time, there won't be any hotels you could stay.  Even if you managed to find a room, you may not even be allowed to stay if they find out your not muslim -- as you're potentially taking the place of another muslim.

here are also a lot of strict rules (by the law enforcement), and if you don't have a guide you may get into problems.  Even shias have problems going there for hajj -- some were even severally abused for now reason.

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Thanks. Is a muslim obligated to do all this pillars? What risks are there if he doesn't?

Well these are the pillars of the shia school.  But in general, when you become a muslim, you want to work hard to follow the moral code contained in the quran.  The pillars are like a 'summary' of this moral code.

The more you work hard to be pious, the higher your chances of going to heaven.  You are free to do what you want, but the Lord will judge your deeds on judgment day.

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Nice. I use persian rugs in my home also. Tell me more about those prayer mats please.

The prayer mats can be anything that is made out of natural/organic fabric.  In fact you can pray on grass if you want.  It's not a big deal, and when your praying, your focus should be on the lord not on the material objects around you.  In fact even the motions in the ritual should not be thought about.  The focus should only be on the lord and the prayer you're requesting.

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I was talking in terms of architecture(mosaics,etc).. What architecture and art do you use in your worship and at you mosques? What does Islam say of Icons?

Just like the prayer mat, architecture art is something that we're not really suppose to focus about.  In fact I would argue that the Lord may not answer the prayers made in the mosques with the most exotic architecture!

Why?  Because it's a huge waste of raw resources and capital, when building these exotic domes and pillars.  The money should've been given to charity instead.  A mosque should be simple, have a flat roof with some open space inside  -- it could also be a tent.  If you look at kaabba-- it has a very simple cubic shape, nothing exotic.

Today, unfortunately many of the rich Islamic nations (those in the oil-rich gulf regions) build these very shiny and exotic mosques-- with domes made out of precious metals like gold and silver.  At the same time you have Muslims in poverty and destitution and they're starving.  The prophet prophesied that this would happen during the time of the antichrist.  It's all the work of the devil.  In the end, the Lord will judge the financiers and architects of these mosques.

On the other hand however, using creativity and art in products that would contribute to society is encouraged.  For example building a piece of technology that is beautiful and easy to understand intuitively.  That is the type of art that is always encouraged.

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Do you have any religious rules about shaving the hair body, probably even in intimate parts? Do you actually believe in chakras? Where is that coming from? Can you tell us more about that?

Hair on the top- If you are a male, it is encourage you always keep the length of your hair uniform.  If you want to have a hair cut, either trim it all, or have the barber cut it out evenly. 

We can not have haircuts that pagans display-

for example haircuts where the sides are short but the top has a lot is discouraged -
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mDSaFFE4So8/TGaVtpnZ5SI/AAAAAAAAACs/dGpY57mUa_c/s1600/male-hairstyles.jpg  and
http://blog.fashionchoice.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Punk-Hairstyles-mohawk-rebelion-punk-img-7.jpg
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee136/suwarnaadi/hair/JonnyGomesmohawkhairstyle.jpg

also haircuts where there is a tail at the end is strongly discouraged - http://www.mulletjunky.com/webimages/Tristanrat.jpg

Wearing a hat is encouraged.

The beard shouldn't be shaved, can be trimmed if necessary.


Body hair on men, I believe the rule is that they can be trimmed, but not shaved off completely.  They have a reason to be on our body, by shaving them you may be affecting your health negatively.


I don't know about females, but I think they can do whatever they like in terms of body hair.   Waxing is okay for them.  For the hair on head, anything is acceptable just as long as it's uniform-- keeping it long is encouraged.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on February 03, 2013, 02:25:09 AM
I heard that it tools people days and weeks to die on the cross?

yes, in surah kahf, it was talking about a group of young christians who went into a cave and slept for about 300 years

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Sleepers

my opinion that Jesus was going through a similar type of sleep (hibernation) while being crucified
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on February 03, 2013, 02:34:50 AM
Does your sect of Shi'ism curse the Sahaba? What do you think of the controversial Kuwaiti Shi'ite Cleric Yasser al-Habib?

(http://alqatrah.net/en/edara/pic/SheikhYasser06.jpg)

Thanks again for your time.

Just remember, I am only a Muslim and don't consider myself subscribing 100% to the main-line shia sect.  However I will admit, that significant amount of my beliefs are in line with the mainline Shias, but I have some disagreements.

There are some Shias that don't recognize some of the companions of the prophets, but there are other that do indeed recognize them and respect them very much.

I don't know who Yasser al-Habib is, and in general I try not to pay too much attention to the bickering and infighting that's going on between shias and sunnis.   I think the islamic community has bigger problems to worry about like the antichrist.  While these sectarian conflicts are going on, the region is becoming weaker and more unstable which creates the perfect conditions for the armies of the antichrist to invade.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on February 03, 2013, 03:00:34 AM
This bears a curious resemblance to the teachings of (Hassidic?) Judaism on the subject of pegam habrit (literally, "the defilement of the covenant" - brit here also means the organ that bears the mark of the covenant):

http://www.briskodesh.org/pages/bris/spilling-seed.htm (http://www.briskodesh.org/pages/bris/spilling-seed.htm)

http://www.truekabbalah.org/pages/Documents4/k00215.htm (http://www.truekabbalah.org/pages/Documents4/k00215.htm)

Thank you very much Romaios for these insightful links!  It amazes me just how much knowledge is in the Abrahamic religions that is hidden and waiting to be rediscovered.  Most of what these links say I agree in regards to the truth it discusses-- although I don't think the lives of the jinns depends solely on the lust we let out.  I believe that jinns can live off of other things-- but our sins is like a 'drug' to them, and that's why they constantly come at us and whisper negative thoughts.  This is why so many people have addictions and don't understand why.

I don't know if you ever heard story like this.. but there are many females here in the west, who are miserable and lost their self-esteem because when they were young -- in highschool years, they got into relationships very early.  Their male partner put so much 'peer-pressure' and deception to have them fornicate.  The male partner even goes as far as lying to her that they will marry in the future.  But once they fornicated, the male friend never contacts her every again.  They keep asking themselves why this male friend of their left them after they fornicated and she lost her virginity to him.  She becomes so miserable, has so much pain in her heart, and keeps having negative thoughts with future relationships.  What these misguided females don't understand is that the jinns have been running their relationship from the onset-- most likely controlling their male partner (through lust) to push them to commit this sin. When this sin occurs, the jinns enjoy a very powerful negative energy....while the antichrist benifits--who wants to push misery, disorder and poverty into our society.

Quote
What might make Shi'a Islam more appealing to James is the possibility of contracting a temporary marriage. Maybe fibonacci could tell us more about this.

Not all shia's accept this type of marriage.  Personally I don't accept this type of marriage if it is for lustful/sexual purposes.  If it is only to financially take care of a husbandless female for a temproary amount of time... like at times of war or economic suffering then yes it's okay.  Remember an unmarried female and unmarried male who are not from the same family, can not live together.  This temp marriage can be a contract to allow such an arrangement.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on February 03, 2013, 03:01:47 AM
Thanks. Sorry to make you repeat yourself; I confess I didn't have the energy to read the whole thread.

no problem :)
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on February 03, 2013, 03:04:22 AM
We have here a very recent rape case where the judge did not send the young to prison because he had been taught at the madrasah that women were worth less than a lollipop that fallen on the ground!

As I write this I am conscious of the history of attacks in Tahrir Square, Cairo, on women by groups of men over the two years since their Arab Spring.

Where is this case happening?  In Egypt?

If you read my earlier posts, you know I'm not a fan of the salafi leaders in Egypt and I strongly believe they are agents of the antichrist out to weaken Egyptians and allow the Zionists to conquer them.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: JamesR on February 03, 2013, 03:17:56 AM
Does Islam have monasticism, or its own equivelant? And what is the OLDEST school of Islam?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on February 03, 2013, 03:20:53 AM
"...you can lie if that will keep you from evil or if it will result in prosperity" -Gazoli Saibin, Ehia Al-owlom Al-Den/A Revival of the Religious Books (Cairo: Maktabet al-Turas, 1971), pp. 3, 137.

I don't think you can lie if it results in prosperity.  Only the Lord can help you (via intuition) when making such difficult decisions.  That's why it's important to follow the religion the right way to have strong intuition delivered to you.

Quote

I didn't notice an answer to this one; forgive me if there was one and I missed it.

Three quick questions about the impossibility of faithful Muslim + non-Muslim friendship.

1. Can faithful Muslims genuinely befriend Christians?

Qur'an 5.51: "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."
(please also compare many similar verses from Qur'an and Hadith here: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/009-friends-with-christians-jews.htm )


If you read my earlier posts, I addressed this question (I think 3 times).

Again, ever since Jesus was crucified, the Christian community was never allies with the Jewish community.  Only in the modern day where you have military partnership between these two groups (NATO and the Zionist army).  

So this verse in our day is referring to the Zionists and the partners of zionists.  Members of masonry and the orange order.

During the prophets time and the centuries that followed, it was referring to some of the wealthy Christians who work with non-religious Jewish financiers.

You see there was a time where the wealthy 'Christians' didn't want to give out charity... instead they wanted to lend money on usury/interest.  But because they're members of strong christian community, they go through the backdoor and made friends with some of the jewish bankers.  They made deals to have these jewish bankers to lend out their money on interest (usury), but never reveal their identity.  A lot of Kings of christian empires/nations made such shady deals.

This verse is referring to these people, Christians and Jews who are allies of one another (when in fact their communities are not allies of one another).

It's not referring to your friendly Christian, Jewish neighbors living next door.
Title: Re: Asking about complex things
Post by: fibonacci on February 03, 2013, 03:30:48 AM

Well, I am a professional mathematician, according to the Regents of the University of Maryland College Park, and I can tell you we didn't study this, nor did we need to. Mathematical concepts are, after all, utterly abstract, so it is not necessary to explore the history of the field's development to understand them. Indeed, often it is confusing to study them that way, because frequently the early versions of an idea are not well-formed. That tends to be even more true of natural science, as there is a lot of bad understanding in the history of most fields (which is, after all, why they progress in the first place).


Are you a pure mathematician or applied?  When you are trying to prove a conjecture, do you ever consult published articles on the problem to help you get a good understanding?  How many of these articles doesn't talk about where the problem originated from?

For a period of time, complex numbers was considered as pseudo-mathematics.  But once they've been realized intuitively (2-D numbers like vectors) that's when it was accepted and respected in the mainstream.  Even though the early versions are not well-formed, it is necessary to examine the history of these concept when they were formed, to appreciate the struggle the previous mathematicians went through to bring about the subject.

Fractal and chaos math went through the same struggles.

I disagree about natural science, especially in Physics and Chemistry.  Understanding how certain discoveries were made is vital to find new discoveries. 

History is very important, why go through all the struggles that previous scientists/mathematicians already went through?  You know by doing so you're really wasting resources--especially if you're being supported by taxpayers.  Just because modern academia doesn't do it like that, don't mean they're right.  They may be getting away with this approach today, because of the flawed monetary system that supports them to publish insignificant journal articles at the expense of hard working citizens in the private sector.  But one day all this false prosperity will come down, and academia will return to a state where researchers can only publish papers that have a purpose and make significant contribution to their field ... ie. no such thing as the 'publish or perish' mentality.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on February 03, 2013, 05:19:30 AM
Does Islam have monasticism, or its own equivelant?

NO it is not allowed in the religion.  Some of the prophet's companion wanted to live like that, but they were forbidden to do so.

Marriage and creating a family is an important part of the religion.


Quote
And what is the OLDEST school of Islam?

This is a complex question I unfortunately an unable to give you a proper answer.

I will say this though,

Sunni and shia started right after the prophet died, but neither groups really recognized that they belong to different sects.  They saw each other as fellow muslims, except some would follow one of the prophet's companions and other groups would follow other companions.

The shia's followed Imam Ali, and his followers suffered tremendously in the early years.  Ali's family and friends were kicked out because they didn't pledge alligence to a tyrant king,  and so ever since then shias went in their own path struggling throw battles (karbala) and persecution.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Cantor Krishnich on February 03, 2013, 07:25:32 AM
Could I masturbate in Islam?

That gave me a big laugh this morning lol! :laugh: To answer your question, from what I've learned, it should be avoided and is considered haram by most scholars but in a few cases (soldiers away from their wives, those who are unable to marry, etc.), if it will "help" you to avoid falling into the sin of fornication then it is okay as long as you perform ghusl (a ritual bathing ablution) afterwards.

"Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their private parts: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do." (24:30)
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: psalm110 on February 03, 2013, 07:26:21 AM
How are homosexuals treated in Islam, are they given respects i.e: the individual loves being a muslim loves going to the mosque but is a homosexual how is he treated by the Muslim Clergy ?.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Severian on February 03, 2013, 08:51:13 AM
How are homosexuals treated in Islam, are they given respects i.e: the individual loves being a muslim loves going to the mosque but is a homosexual how is he treated by the Muslim Clergy ?.
According to the Sunni school of thought, homosexuality is a crime punishable by death. I'm not sure how the Shia deal with it (probably in a similar way).
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: xariskai on February 03, 2013, 11:09:16 AM
"...you can lie if that will keep you from evil or if it will result in prosperity" -Gazoli Saibin, Ehia Al-owlom Al-Den/A Revival of the Religious Books (Cairo: Maktabet al-Turas, 1971), pp. 3, 137.

I don't think you can lie if it results in prosperity.  Only the Lord can help you (via intuition) when making such difficult decisions.  That's why it's important to follow the religion the right way to have strong intuition delivered to you.

Quote

I didn't notice an answer to this one; forgive me if there was one and I missed it.

Three quick questions about the impossibility of faithful Muslim + non-Muslim friendship.

1. Can faithful Muslims genuinely befriend Christians?

Qur'an 5.51: "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."
(please also compare many similar verses from Qur'an and Hadith here: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/009-friends-with-christians-jews.htm )


If you read my earlier posts, I addressed this question (I think 3 times).

Again, ever since Jesus was crucified, the Christian community was never allies with the Jewish community.  Only in the modern day where you have military partnership between these two groups (NATO and the Zionist army).  

So this verse in our day is referring to the Zionists and the partners of zionists.  Members of masonry and the orange order.

During the prophets time and the centuries that followed, it was referring to some of the wealthy Christians who work with non-religious Jewish financiers.

You see there was a time where the wealthy 'Christians' didn't want to give out charity... instead they wanted to lend money on usury/interest.  But because they're members of strong christian community, they go through the backdoor and made friends with some of the jewish bankers.  They made deals to have these jewish bankers to lend out their money on interest (usury), but never reveal their identity.  A lot of Kings of christian empires/nations made such shady deals.

This verse is referring to these people, Christians and Jews who are allies of one another (when in fact their communities are not allies of one another).

It's not referring to your friendly Christian, Jewish neighbors living next door.
Thanks for your reply. Though I have other questions about it, for now I must insist your apparent belief that NATO and the Masons are "Christian" is quite ludicrous. Neither does the Orange Order represent Christianity per se any more than you indicate radical Muslims represent you. Orthodox Christians are not allowed to be Masons, and many mainline Protestant groups will not allow Masons to be members of their groups.

So my first question is what justification you have for identifying NATO and the Masons as "Christian."

Also if you are telling us this verse[1] is not about Jews and Christians but Jews and Christians that are Masons, what Masons existed at the time the verse was written to warrant such -at first blush- a strained accounting of the verse forbidding any befriending of Jews and Christians? (or if not Masons, what entity like Masons are you saying the verse is about?

Would you say that most Muslims would agree you can be friends with Christians and Jews who are neighbors without disobeying the Quran? How many percentage-wide worldwide do you think would probably agree?

More questions later; thanks again.
_____________
[1] Qur'an 5.51: "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."
(please also compare many similar verses from Qur'an and Hadith here: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/009-friends-with-christians-jews.htm )




Title: Re: Asking about complex things
Post by: Keble on February 03, 2013, 01:56:01 PM
Are you a pure mathematician or applied?  When you are trying to prove a conjecture, do you ever consult published articles on the problem to help you get a good understanding?  How many of these articles doesn't talk about where the problem originated from?

That's not the way we talk about things in the math department. The only "problem" solved by imaginary numbers is the fact that there is no real number which is the square root of -1.

Quote
For a period of time, complex numbers was considered as pseudo-mathematics.  But once they've been realized intuitively (2-D numbers like vectors) that's when it was accepted and respected in the mainstream.

No, that's not true. Complex numbers were first worked on in the late 1500s in Italy, but the planar visualization of them wasn't spelled out until 1799. The notion was worked on steadily in between. I haven't seen anything that connects the Islamic world to complex arithmetic.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Cantor Krishnich on February 03, 2013, 03:24:00 PM
How are homosexuals treated in Islam, are they given respects i.e: the individual loves being a muslim loves going to the mosque but is a homosexual how is he treated by the Muslim Clergy ?.

"We also sent Lut : He said to his people : "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." Qur'an 7:80-81

In most, and probably all, Islamic schools both Shia and Sunni, Homosexuality is considered seriously haram. In most Islamic governments, according to the Shari'ah law code, this is punishable by death. 
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Charles Martel on February 03, 2013, 04:19:42 PM
Does Islam have monasticism, or its own equivelant?

NO it is not allowed in the religion.  Some of the prophet's companion wanted to live like that, but they were forbidden to do so.

Marriage and creating a family is an important part of the religion.

Quote
And what is the OLDEST school of Islam?

This is a complex question I unfortunately an unable to give you a proper answer.

I will say this though,

Sunni and shia started right after the prophet died, but neither groups really recognized that they belong to different sects.  They saw each other as fellow muslims, except some would follow one of the prophet's companions and other groups would follow other companions.

The shia's followed Imam Ali, and his followers suffered tremendously in the early years.  Ali's family and friends were kicked out because they didn't pledge alligence to a tyrant king,  and so ever since then shias went in their own path struggling throw battles (karbala) and persecution.
I have to admit, I respect the hell out of that statement.

If only most "christians" felt this way.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: JamesR on February 03, 2013, 04:53:21 PM
If that's the case, then I'd NEVER become a Muslim. Perhaps influenced by my experience with my own family, but the thought of having a family of my own actually sounds miserable, time-consuming and difficult--opposed to good. I'd take solitude over family life any day :)
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Cantor Krishnich on February 03, 2013, 05:19:29 PM
If that's the case, then I'd NEVER become a Muslim. Perhaps influenced by my experience with my own family, but the thought of having a family of my own actually sounds miserable, time-consuming and difficult--opposed to good. I'd take solitude over family life any day :)

But its the same in Christianity, Marriage, family life, and procreation are also a very important part of Orthodox Christianity unless you become a monastic (Monk or Nun). I wouldn't say miserable, but of course family life is time-consuming and difficult that's just life, we cant run away from our obligations or be lazy  :angel:. I'm willing to bet that the monastic life is probably way harder than the worldly family life.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: JamesR on February 03, 2013, 07:14:45 PM
The difference is that I take some bit of joy in being alone and handling the toils of the solitary life, whereas, the problems of family life seem utterly miserable to me. I'm an emotionally detached person, so the thought of having to deal with emotions and feelings from a wife, kids and having to raise them and be a good dad is frightening and miserable to me. Plus, I feel like I never got my independence from kids because I've been raising my siblings as if they were my children for quite a while now.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on February 03, 2013, 08:02:47 PM
Could I masturbate in Islam?

That gave me a big laugh this morning lol! :laugh: To answer your question, from what I've learned, it should be avoided and is considered haram by most scholars but in a few cases (soldiers away from their wives, those who are unable to marry, etc.), if it will "help" you to avoid falling into the sin of fornication then it is okay as long as you perform ghusl (a ritual bathing ablution) afterwards.

"Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their private parts: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do." (24:30)

Thanks for the quoting the verse!

this is my reply   -- http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,47229.msg873125.html#msg873125
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on February 03, 2013, 08:24:25 PM
How are homosexuals treated in Islam, are they given respects i.e: the individual loves being a muslim loves going to the mosque but is a homosexual how is he treated by the Muslim Clergy ?.

All forms of lust is a sin...

For male homosexuals if they take their lust to the limit (releasing semen) it is a major sin...

and just like what I said about 'playing with yourself' ... you are 'feeding' the evil jinns, extremely powerful negative energy

Finally without getting too much into details....and may the lord forgive me if I misguide anyone
homosexual behaviors get you closer to the devil  -- I'll just leave it at that

***

If they are caught in such behavior in an Islamic community, they'll be examined to improve their mental condition and will be encouraged to marry a women asap (just like what prophet Lot proposed).

If they don't however go with the advice, and they commit extreme acts of lust in an islamic community where there is strong emphasis on family, they'll be requested to leave the community asap.


Now some will argue that they're born that way... and this may be true to a degree because of the chemicals the mother was exposed to during pregancy (BPA).

In this case, long periods of fasting is recommended, to detoxify the whole body from such chemicals.  The community will need to provide resources to the individual to improve the mental condition.  

A true Islamic community is suppose to be family oriented, everyone works hard to help one another to grow the community.  No one is suppose to feel isolated and abandoned unless they choose to live like that.


Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on February 03, 2013, 08:38:17 PM
If that's the case, then I'd NEVER become a Muslim. Perhaps influenced by my experience with my own family, but the thought of having a family of my own actually sounds miserable, time-consuming and difficult--opposed to good. I'd take solitude over family life any day :)

you have to understand James, that you've been living in United states for the last few decades, at a time where dajjal (antichrist) and satan have taken full control of your economy

the quran says ' evil threatens you with poverty'

by taking control of the economy

satan can then destroy families

60 years ago, a man could support a wife and 8 kids

today he can barely support himself, and his wife has to work full time ... and they both pay taxes

divorce rates have gone up, abortion rates, unwanted pregnancies, fornication, adulturly, ...etc. have all increased

it's because the economy is being manipulated by satan, and agents of the anitchrist


in greece, where there is a large orthodox community, families are letting go of their young children to wealtheir families because they simply can't afford them

don't let all this discourage you, just know that family is the most powerful institution to drive humanity forward
don't let your previous experiences deceive you to think the opposite way

dajjal wants that, so that when you grow older and there is no family to take care of you
you have no choice but to accept the demonic system that dajjal offers you


I suggest you take some time and learn how the economy has been manipulated.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: fibonacci on February 03, 2013, 08:53:13 PM
"...you can lie if that will keep you from evil or if it will result in prosperity" -Gazoli Saibin, Ehia Al-owlom Al-Den/A Revival of the Religious Books (Cairo: Maktabet al-Turas, 1971), pp. 3, 137.

I don't think you can lie if it results in prosperity.  Only the Lord can help you (via intuition) when making such difficult decisions.  That's why it's important to follow the religion the right way to have strong intuition delivered to you.

Quote

I didn't notice an answer to this one; forgive me if there was one and I missed it.

Three quick questions about the impossibility of faithful Muslim + non-Muslim friendship.

1. Can faithful Muslims genuinely befriend Christians?

Qur'an 5.51: "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."
(please also compare many similar verses from Qur'an and Hadith here: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/009-friends-with-christians-jews.htm )


If you read my earlier posts, I addressed this question (I think 3 times).

Again, ever since Jesus was crucified, the Christian community was never allies with the Jewish community.  Only in the modern day where you have military partnership between these two groups (NATO and the Zionist army). 

So this verse in our day is referring to the Zionists and the partners of zionists.  Members of masonry and the orange order.

During the prophets time and the centuries that followed, it was referring to some of the wealthy Christians who work with non-religious Jewish financiers.

You see there was a time where the wealthy 'Christians' didn't want to give out charity... instead they wanted to lend money on usury/interest.  But because they're members of strong christian community, they go through the backdoor and made friends with some of the jewish bankers.  They made deals to have these jewish bankers to lend out their money on interest (usury), but never reveal their identity.  A lot of Kings of christian empires/nations made such shady deals.

This verse is referring to these people, Christians and Jews who are allies of one another (when in fact their communities are not allies of one another).

It's not referring to your friendly Christian, Jewish neighbors living next door.
Thanks for your reply. Though I have other questions about it, for now I must insist your apparent belief that NATO and the Masons are "Christian" is quite ludicrous. Neither does the Orange Order represent Christianity per se any more than you indicate radical Muslims represent you. Orthodox Christians are not allowed to be Masons, and many mainline Protestant groups will not allow Masons to be members of their groups.

So my first question is what justification you have for identifying NATO and the Masons as "Christian."

Also if you are telling us this verse[1] is not about Jews and Christians but Jews and Christians that are Masons, what Masons existed at the time the verse was written to warrant such -at first blush- a strained accounting of the verse forbidding any befriending of Jews and Christians? (or if not Masons, what entity like Masons are you saying the verse is about?

Would you say that most Muslims would agree you can be friends with Christians and Jews who are neighbors without disobeying the Quran? How many percentage-wide worldwide do you think would probably agree?

More questions later; thanks again.
_____________
[1] Qur'an 5.51: "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."
(please also compare many similar verses from Qur'an and Hadith here: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/009-friends-with-christians-jews.htm )


I know they're not the true Christians...

but these groups were formed by western Christians (not orthodox) who became allies with edomite jews (who are converted jews)

remember it was the edomites that rejected christ, and crucified him

but strangly a group of western christians who claim to be true followers of christ became military allies with them

Why do you think this is the case?

It's these two finanically/military-aligned groups that we're asked to avoid.  Do you understand?


Being friends with a true good-mannered christian and a true good-mannered jew in your neighborhood is not a problem at all.  It is encouraged in the quran.

There are many true orthodox jews who accept Jesus as the messiah, they don't belong to the aggressive edomite/Zionist group.  At the same time there are many Christians who won't lend money on interest and certaintly wouldn't make deals with other groups to do it for him on his behalf.


Edit:

xariskai , because this is a topic I studied a long time ago, I can't really remember names of kings, noble Christians who made alliances with jews
all I can say there are many facts on this subject..... here's one link I found disscusing these financially and politically motivated relationships:

"
The Alliance with the Christian kings

It is to be said that this time the Christians, facing the rise of a superior Muslim force, received the Jews with some kind of compassion, because considered them useful allies. As a result, the Jews switched the side, giving their support to the Christian kingdoms. There -->they formed a special social group<--, depending and protected by the kings who used them as tax collectors, financial ministers (almoxarifes), treasurers, state bankers, personal physicians, astronomers... In the cities the Jews acquired predominant positions in trade and crafts. It became usual practice for the nobles to marry to Jewish women in order to receive the financial support of the rich Jewish families. Even the kings had Jewish favorites. In this manner the Sephardim exerciced great influence on the policy and economy of the Christian kingdoms."

http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Spanish-Ladino/History/Ladino-History.htm


In the early years of Islam, the quran was referring to these jews and christians who are allies of one another.

In the modern day, it's referring to Nato army from western Christianity and Zionist regime from edomite judaism.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: JamesR on February 03, 2013, 09:20:36 PM
What's the Hadith? How important of a part does it play in Islamic salvation? Is there a such thing as "Sola Scriptura" Muslims who only follow the Quran?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Charles Martel on February 03, 2013, 09:24:19 PM
If that's the case, then I'd NEVER become a Muslim. Perhaps influenced by my experience with my own family, but the thought of having a family of my own actually sounds miserable, time-consuming and difficult--opposed to good. I'd take solitude over family life any day :)

you have to understand James, that you've been living in United states for the last few decades, at a time where dajjal (antichrist) and satan have taken full control of your economy

the quran says ' evil threatens you with poverty'

by taking control of the economy

satan can then destroy families

60 years ago, a man could support a wife and 8 kids

today he can barely support himself, and his wife has to work full time ... and they both pay taxes

divorce rates have gone up, abortion rates, unwanted pregnancies, fornication, adulturly, ...etc. have all increased

it's because the economy is being manipulated by satan, and agents of the anitchrist


in greece, where there is a large orthodox community, families are letting go of their young children to wealtheir families because they simply can't afford them

don't let all this discourage you, just know that family is the most powerful institution to drive humanity forward
don't let your previous experiences deceive you to think the opposite way

dajjal wants that, so that when you grow older and there is no family to take care of you
you have no choice but to accept the demonic system that dajjal offers you


I suggest you take some time and learn how the economy has been manipulated.
Great post.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: JamesR on February 03, 2013, 09:36:58 PM
If that's all really true, then why even live in society? Why not move out to the wilderness, build and/or purchase my own modest house and become self sufficient like yeshuasiam, living my own life with a possible family? Then again, I don't know if a city-boy like me could make it out there.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Cantor Krishnich on February 03, 2013, 10:22:33 PM
What's the Hadith? How important of a part does it play in Islamic salvation? Is there a such thing as "Sola Scriptura" Muslims who only follow the Quran?

The Hadith is a collection of sayings and rules that were either directly from the Prophet Mohammad or his early followers. So it plays a major role in Islamic teachings as it is a main scripture for muslims second only to the Qur'an. Muslims, in most ways, are "sola scriptura" especially the Sunnis. There are a few small sects who aren't though.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: JamesR on February 03, 2013, 10:25:56 PM
How come all the Hadiths seem to promote and tolerate violence and immoral practices, whereas, when I read the Quran, it seems to be peaceful for the most part?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Severian on February 03, 2013, 10:29:15 PM
It's important to note that the two main Hadith volumes believed by the Sunni to be completely (or almost completely) authentic or "Sahih" are Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, which the Shia do not recognize.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Nephi on February 03, 2013, 10:29:55 PM
How come all the Hadiths seem to promote and tolerate violence and immoral practices, whereas, when I read the Quran, it seems to be peaceful for the most part?
Read where it mentions the Pagans, and maybe you'll reconsider that.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Theophilos78 on February 04, 2013, 05:58:10 AM

I know they're not the true Christians...

but these groups were formed by western Christians (not orthodox) who became allies with edomite jews (who are converted jews)

remember it was the edomites that rejected christ, and crucified him

You have not answered my questions regarding Israel and Jews yet. So let me repeat here:

What does the Qur'an say about Edomites? Where in the Qur'an can we find this essential distinction? Show me the word Edomite in your scripture please.

but strangely a group of western christians who claim to be true followers of christ became military allies with them

Why do you think this is the case?

It's these two finanically/military-aligned groups that we're asked to avoid.  Do you understand?

Why should we avoid such alliances? The writer of the Qur'an has no authority over Christians. We do not need Muhammad's advice or commandments for our political or financial affairs.  ???
Besides, we have more things in common with Jews than with Muslims. "Salvation is from the Judeans" said the Messiah.

Being friends with a true good-mannered christian and a true good-mannered jew in your neighborhood is not a problem at all.  It is encouraged in the quran.

Verse please? Actually, the Qur'an verse asking Muslims not to befriend Christians and Jews does not contain any adjectival clauses to make a distinction between different representatives of these two groups. It simply says "Jews and Christians", not "only Christians that aid Jews". The Qur'an teaching on this issue is not specific as you claim it to be.

There are many true orthodox jews who accept Jesus as the messiah, they don't belong to the aggressive edomite/Zionist group.  At the same time there are many Christians who won't lend money on interest and certaintly wouldn't make deals with other groups to do it for him on his behalf.

In the early years of Islam, the quran was referring to these jews and christians who are allies of one another.

This is not stated in the Qur'an, being your personal interpretation.

Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Theophilos78 on February 04, 2013, 06:00:45 AM

you have to understand James, that you've been living in United states for the last few decades, at a time where dajjal (antichrist) and satan have taken full control of your economy

the quran says ' evil threatens you with poverty'

by taking control of the economy

satan can then destroy families


Now I can perfectly understand why the Qur'an has the following verse:

Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low. (Surah 9:29 Pickthall)

Thanks for the explanation.  ;D
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Trebor135 on April 03, 2013, 04:16:52 PM
Isa has a point. If everyone prior to the Quran believed that Jesus truly died, and many of them witnessed it and/or at least knew people who had, why should we believe what one person said in a book that was written something like 6-8 centuries later by someone who wasn't even there?

Some Christians didn't even believe Jesus was God. That He was human. Etc.

Of course Isa and company will chime that they were not Christians, well here we are at begging the question.

James, don't fall for the reductionist apologetics of Isa and Jeremy. It's weak sauce.

But whether or not Jesus was killed by crucifixion is a purely historical question, accepted as a fact even by non-Christian scholars.

Further, we can easily reformulate the "weak sauce" argument against the Qur'an's perfection that you ascribe to Isa and Dzheremi as follows. The text responds only to one view of the trinity and Christ's person held by self-described Christians, and a truly minority opinion to be found within an obscure community in Arabia which couldn't trace itself back to first- or second-century Palestine. Imagine if a man who claimed to be a prophet published a scripture blasting Muslims for regarding Moses, the Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, and Krishna as manifestations of God (which the Bahá'í believe).
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: essene19 on April 03, 2013, 09:52:10 PM
Does Islam have monasticism, or its own equivelant? And what is the OLDEST school of Islam?

Per the words of the Prophet himself, there is no monasticism in Islam, at least officially.  However, there have been various ascetics in the history of Islam, some of whom did lead celibate lives and divorced themselves entirely from the world to dedicate themselves to worship.

The idea in Islam is to establish an ideal balance between this world and the Hereafter; we are expected to be in the world, but not of it.  Of course, finding that balance is very difficult, and I think that has been the problem with many Muslims since the very beginning.

As for the OLDEST school of Islam, what exactly do you mean?  The oldest legal school?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: essene19 on April 03, 2013, 10:00:11 PM
How come all the Hadiths seem to promote and tolerate violence and immoral practices, whereas, when I read the Quran, it seems to be peaceful for the most part?

It depends on which hadiths you're reading.  Taking a hadith book and reading it without a qualified teacher can be very dangerous, especially if one is not aware of the social/historical context of the hadiths themselves.  And the hadiths are also divided into different categories: there are authentic hadiths, sound hadiths, weak hadiths, fabricated hadiths, etc.

The biggest problem facing Islam today, I think, is that there are too many unqualified people delving into these pre-modern texts without the necessary training and causing all sorts of havoc.  It is somewhat similar to mainstream Christianity nowadays, where people speak on religious matters without the requisite knowledge and understanding.  Only in the case of Islam, the problem is much worse, to say the least.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: essene19 on April 03, 2013, 10:03:10 PM
Does your sect of Shi'ism curse the Sahaba? What do you think of the controversial Kuwaiti Shi'ite Cleric Yasser al-Habib?

(http://alqatrah.net/en/edara/pic/SheikhYasser06.jpg)

Thanks again for your time.

Yasser al-Habib is a sectarian Shiite fanatic and does no good for the cause of Islam or Muslims.  At least one thing I can credit Christians with is that they do not waste their time and energy fighting over such trivial matters, about this sahaba or that sahaba.  Islam was nearly divided into soon after the Prophet's death - the early Christian community, at least to my knowledge, did not have that problem.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: dzheremi on April 03, 2013, 10:29:29 PM
Yasser al-Habib is a sectarian Shiite fanatic and does no good for the cause of Islam or Muslims.  At least one thing I can credit Christians with is that they do not waste their time and energy fighting over such trivial matters, about this sahaba or that sahaba.  Islam was nearly divided into soon after the Prophet's death - the early Christian community, at least to my knowledge, did not have that problem.

I hate to burst your bubble, but that's so old it was dealt with in the New Testament itself. From the first letter of St. Paul to the Corinthians:

For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: essene19 on April 03, 2013, 11:06:12 PM
Yasser al-Habib is a sectarian Shiite fanatic and does no good for the cause of Islam or Muslims.  At least one thing I can credit Christians with is that they do not waste their time and energy fighting over such trivial matters, about this sahaba or that sahaba.  Islam was nearly divided into soon after the Prophet's death - the early Christian community, at least to my knowledge, did not have that problem.

I hate to burst your bubble, but that's so old it was dealt with in the New Testament itself. From the first letter of St. Paul to the Corinthians:

For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?

Point taken, there's no bubble to burst really.

I too would be happy to answer any questions that users here might have about Islam, to the best of my ability.

As for the verse dealing with taking Jews and Christians as friends, you have to consider the following:

- The term that the Quran uses in that verse is "awliya", which denotes a kind of guardianship rather than friendship on a human level.  Do not take such people are protectors/guardians, especially when they are protectors of one another.  To a certain extent, it was true in the 7th century, and now, if you look at the political scene, it applies in this century as well (hint hint...the curious case of (un)Christian Zionism...).  I've also heard interpretations that say that "one should not take such Jews and such Christians who themselves are friends and allies of another", which contains an important nuance.  God knows best.

- In traditional Islamic jurisprudence, Muslim men are allowed to marry Jewish and Christian women - if the Qur'an truly prohibited friendship with Jews and Christians, why in the world would it allow Muslim men to marry non-Muslim women, especially when men are expected to love and take care of them (and the women are allowed to keep their faith as well)?

- The concept of abrogation is a concept popular amongst both Islamists and detractors of Islam - there is this idea that later verses annul or abolish earlier, more peaceful verses.  I find this to be a completely erroneous idea, and the fact that Muslim scholars throughout the centuries have never been able to agree on which verses are abrogated or not further proves the shaky foundations of the doctrine.  The Qur'an is a text that should and needs to be examined holistically, where one verses explains or expands upon another.  If the text says "Christian" or "Jew", then we must decipher what the text means by those terms within the text itself rather than impose our own definitions onto it.  In other words, a proper methodological approach needs to be established where the Qur'an's own definitions of those concepts are utilized to interpret the verses. Such a methodology has been absent from the intellectual world of Islam for quite some time, and that is part of the problem.

With all that said, I've had non-Muslim friends throughout my life (and I will happily continue to do so), and no imam or scholar or anyone in my religious circle has ever expressed any misgivings about that.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Cognomen on April 03, 2013, 11:21:16 PM
Thanks for your thoughtful contributions, essene19, and welcome to the forum.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: orthonorm on April 04, 2013, 01:35:20 AM
Thanks for your thoughtful contributions, essene19, and welcome to the forum.

Seconded.

I looked a bit in to "abrogation" when I heard about it discussed so much among the Orthodox on the internet and even a simple reading of Islamic hermeneutics over the course of history would show that "abrogation" in the manner in which many critics of Islams would hold it applies more to the typical Christian approach to scripture than Muslim.

Though Muslims who did advocate for an abrogation of sorts seemed confused and couldn't agree on which part abrogated which, which parts of the Koran were abrogated etc.

Overall, outside of reading what amounted to a lot of proto RC scholasticism, I was quite impressed during my rather superficial look into the history of Islamic hermeneutics.

I might have a few questions.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: orthonorm on April 04, 2013, 01:45:14 AM
How come all the Hadiths seem to promote and tolerate violence and immoral practices, whereas, when I read the Quran, it seems to be peaceful for the most part?

It depends on which hadiths you're reading.  Taking a hadith book and reading it without a qualified teacher can be very dangerous, especially if one is not aware of the social/historical context of the hadiths themselves.  And the hadiths are also divided into different categories: there are authentic hadiths, sound hadiths, weak hadiths, fabricated hadiths, etc.

I hate to ask such a general question, but I really can't offer much more as I don't know a lot about Islam, in any case . . .

Given the "problems" with the hadith, what do you make of the Koranist or Koran only trend in contemporary Islam.

When I was looking into Islamic hermeneutics, I was intrigued by this development and surprised by the incredible lack of sophistication of their critics to their approach to understanding the Koran and Islam. It is worse than how many critique so-called sola scriptura Protestants within Orthodoxy. It seemed to me few outside this development took serious the method of the Koranists and offered a proper critique.

I am sympathetic to the sola scriptura folks who are sincerely so, as their method for understanding Scripture is more nuanced than what their detractors would have you believe.

It also seemed that the Koranists were also as a whole more nuanced than their detractors would have you think. And less disperate in belief and practice than their detractors would have you think.

Any opinions of this seemingly new trend within Islam? Perhaps it is a perennial one.

Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: xariskai on April 04, 2013, 02:34:25 AM
What is your opinion of the recently issued Fatwa allowing rape of non-Sunni women in Syria? The following article also makes the point that in historical Islam such a practice is hardly an aberration; can you comment on this issue as well?

Quote from: Raymond Ibriham
Human Events
New Fatwa Permits Rape of Non-Sunni Women in Syria

Yet another Islamic cleric recently made it permissible for the Islamic fighters waging a jihad in Syria—politely known as “the opposition”—to rape the nation’s women.

‘Ajlawni: Justifying rape in Islam’s name

Salafi Sheikh Yasir al-‘Ajlawni, a Jordanian of origin who earlier lived in Damascus, Syria for 17 years, posted a YouTube video last week where he said he was preparing to issue a “legitimate fatwa” making it legal (in the eyes of Islam) for those Muslims fighting to topple secular president Bashar Assad and install Sharia law to “capture and have sex with” all non-Sunni women, specifically naming Assad’s own sect, the Alawites, as well as the Druze and several others, in short, all non-Sunnis and non-Muslims.
READ MORE HERE  (http://www.raymondibrahim.com/from-the-arab-world/new-fatwa-permits-rape-of-non-sunni-women-in-syria/)
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: xariskai on April 04, 2013, 03:32:57 AM
- The concept of abrogation is a concept popular amongst both Islamists and detractors of Islam - there is this idea that later verses annul or abolish earlier, more peaceful verses.  I find this to be a completely erroneous idea, and the fact that Muslim scholars throughout the centuries have never been able to agree on which verses are abrogated or not further proves the shaky foundations of the doctrine.
It is interesting to hear the claim that abrogation (i.e. newer revelations override the older ones) is erroneous. Abrogation is affirmed by many prominent scholars of Islam who argue that without abrogation there would be logical contradictions in the Quran,[1] and that furthermore it is explicitly taught by the Quran, multiple times in fact.

"Many verses counsel patience in the face of the mockery of the unbelievers, while other verses incite to warfare against the unbelievers. The former are linked to the [chronologically anterior] Meccan phase of the mission when the Muslims were too few and weak to do other than endure insult; the latter are linked to Medina where the Prophet had acquired the numbers and the strength to hit back at his enemies. The discrepancy between the two sets of verses indicates that different situations call for different regulations."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naskh_(tafsir)

Quote from: Abrogation in Islam / Middle East Quarterly
Four verses in the Qu'ran acknowledge or justify abrogation:

    When we cancel a message, or throw it into oblivion, we replace it with one better or one similar. Do you not know that God has power over all things?[10]
    When we replace a message with another, and God knows best what he reveals, they say: You have made it up. Yet, most of them do not know.[11]
    God abrogates or confirms whatsoever he will, for he has with him the Book of the Books.[12]
    If we pleased, we could take away what we have revealed to you. Then you will not find anyone to plead for it with us.[13]
__________
[9] Bell, Introduction to the Qur'an, pp. 86-107; Arthur Jeffery, Islam: Muhammad and His Religion (Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill, 1958), p. 66.
[10] Qur. 2:106.
[11] Qur. 16:101.
[12] Qur. 13:39.
[13] Qur. 17:86.


David Bukay “Peace or Jihad? Abrogation in Islam,” Middle East Quarterly, VOL XIV, NO. 4, Fall 2007, pp. 3-11
http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam#_ftnref14  
 

Question: if as seems to be the case rejection of abrogation is "outside the mainstream and, perhaps even the religion itself" (Bukay, op cit) the rejection of abrogation no less than the fact you mentioned that Muslim scholars have never been able to agree on which verses were abrogated seems to suggest not the nature of Islam (singular) but Islams (plural). If the mainstream of historical Islam and Islamic jurists is wrong and is unable to present a unified view why should we suppose some fellow on the internet represents True Islam? (perhaps your variety might be an instance of a "prettier face," but if it is a fringe viewpoint at the very least it does not abrogate the problems associated with the doctrine of abrogation for the non-Muslim world in mainstream and historical Islam.

Quote from: Abrogation in Islam / Middle East Quarterly
"Most scholars divide the Qur'an into verses revealed by Muhammad in Mecca when his community of followers was weak and more inclined to compromise, and those revealed in Medina, where Muhammad's strength grew. Classical scholars argued that anyone who studied the Qur'an without having mastered the doctrine of abrogation would be "deficient."[15] Those who do not accept abrogation fall outside the mainstream and, perhaps, even the religion itself. The Ahmadiyah sect, for example, today concentrated in Pakistan, consistently rejects abrogation because it undercuts the notion that the Qur'an is free from errors.[16] Many Muslims consider Ahmadis, who also see their founder as a prophet, to be apostates.
_____________________
[14] John Burton, The Encyclopedia of Islam, vol. 7, s.v. "Naskh," p. 1010.
[15] Abu al-Kasim Hibat-Allah Ibn Salama, An-Nasikh wal-Mansukh (Cairo: Dar al-Ma'arif, 1966), pp. 4-5, 123. On pp. 142-3, he lists the abrogated verses. See also pp. 7, 11, 26-7, 37, 46.
[16] Maulana Muhammad Ali, The Religion of Islam (Lahore: Ahmadiyya Anjuman Isha'at Islam, 2005), p. 32; Ahmad bin Muhammad al-Nahhas, An-Nasikh Wal-Mansukh (Cairo: Maktabat ‘Alam al-Fikr, 1986), pp. 2-3.


David Bukay “Peace or Jihad? Abrogation in Islam,” Middle East Quarterly, VOL XIV, NO. 4, Fall 2007, pp. 3-11
http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam#_ftnref14  

Thanks for your replies; I will ask more on the topic of friendship in a bit, also with attention to the way the issue plays out historiographically and in contemporary Islamic scholarship and culture in addition to individual examples of dissent which however more conciliatory and attractive they indeed may be, do not seem to represent the mainstream thus defined regardless of presentations by e.g. popular apologists.
__________
[1]
(http://i.imgur.com/A8kFI4E.png)
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: stanley123 on April 04, 2013, 04:36:00 AM
This bears a curious resemblance to the teachings of (Hassidic?) Judaism on the subject of pegam habrit (literally, "the defilement of the covenant" - brit here also means the organ that bears the mark of the covenant):

http://www.briskodesh.org/pages/bris/spilling-seed.htm (http://www.briskodesh.org/pages/bris/spilling-seed.htm)

http://www.truekabbalah.org/pages/Documents4/k00215.htm (http://www.truekabbalah.org/pages/Documents4/k00215.htm)

Thank you very much Romaios for these insightful links!  It amazes me just how much knowledge is in the Abrahamic religions that is hidden and waiting to be rediscovered.  Most of what these links say I agree in regards to the truth it discusses-- although I don't think the lives of the jinns depends solely on the lust we let out.  I believe that jinns can live off of other things-- but our sins is like a 'drug' to them, and that's why they constantly come at us and whisper negative thoughts.  This is why so many people have addictions and don't understand why.

I don't know if you ever heard story like this.. but there are many females here in the west, who are miserable and lost their self-esteem because when they were young -- in highschool years, they got into relationships very early.  Their male partner put so much 'peer-pressure' and deception to have them fornicate.  The male partner even goes as far as lying to her that they will marry in the future.  But once they fornicated, the male friend never contacts her every again.  They keep asking themselves why this male friend of their left them after they fornicated and she lost her virginity to him.  She becomes so miserable, has so much pain in her heart, and keeps having negative thoughts with future relationships.  What these misguided females don't understand is that the jinns have been running their relationship from the onset-- most likely controlling their male partner (through lust) to push them to commit this sin. When this sin occurs, the jinns enjoy a very powerful negative energy....while the antichrist benifits--who wants to push misery, disorder and poverty into our society.

Quote
What might make Shi'a Islam more appealing to James is the possibility of contracting a temporary marriage. Maybe fibonacci could tell us more about this.

Not all shia's accept this type of marriage.  Personally I don't accept this type of marriage if it is for lustful/sexual purposes.  If it is only to financially take care of a husbandless female for a temproary amount of time... like at times of war or economic suffering then yes it's okay.  Remember an unmarried female and unmarried male who are not from the same family, can not live together.  This temp marriage can be a contract to allow such an arrangement.
How many wives did Muhammed have? How old was Aisha, his third wife, when they got married?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Charles Martel on April 04, 2013, 04:43:20 PM
This bears a curious resemblance to the teachings of (Hassidic?) Judaism on the subject of pegam habrit (literally, "the defilement of the covenant" - brit here also means the organ that bears the mark of the covenant):

http://www.briskodesh.org/pages/bris/spilling-seed.htm (http://www.briskodesh.org/pages/bris/spilling-seed.htm)

http://www.truekabbalah.org/pages/Documents4/k00215.htm (http://www.truekabbalah.org/pages/Documents4/k00215.htm)

Thank you very much Romaios for these insightful links!  It amazes me just how much knowledge is in the Abrahamic religions that is hidden and waiting to be rediscovered.  Most of what these links say I agree in regards to the truth it discusses-- although I don't think the lives of the jinns depends solely on the lust we let out.  I believe that jinns can live off of other things-- but our sins is like a 'drug' to them, and that's why they constantly come at us and whisper negative thoughts.  This is why so many people have addictions and don't understand why.

I don't know if you ever heard story like this.. but there are many females here in the west, who are miserable and lost their self-esteem because when they were young -- in highschool years, they got into relationships very early.  Their male partner put so much 'peer-pressure' and deception to have them fornicate.  The male partner even goes as far as lying to her that they will marry in the future.  But once they fornicated, the male friend never contacts her every again.  They keep asking themselves why this male friend of their left them after they fornicated and she lost her virginity to him.  She becomes so miserable, has so much pain in her heart, and keeps having negative thoughts with future relationships.  What these misguided females don't understand is that the jinns have been running their relationship from the onset-- most likely controlling their male partner (through lust) to push them to commit this sin. When this sin occurs, the jinns enjoy a very powerful negative energy....while the antichrist benifits--who wants to push misery, disorder and poverty into our society.

Quote
What might make Shi'a Islam more appealing to James is the possibility of contracting a temporary marriage. Maybe fibonacci could tell us more about this.

Not all shia's accept this type of marriage.  Personally I don't accept this type of marriage if it is for lustful/sexual purposes.  If it is only to financially take care of a husbandless female for a temproary amount of time... like at times of war or economic suffering then yes it's okay.  Remember an unmarried female and unmarried male who are not from the same family, can not live together.  This temp marriage can be a contract to allow such an arrangement.
How many wives did Muhammed have? How old was Aisha, his third wife, when they got married?
The real question is, just how old was she when they "consumated" the marriage.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: JamesR on April 04, 2013, 04:55:04 PM
It was SOOO evil and horrible when those godless Muslims killed Orthodox Christians in their conquests and took young wives, but it was perfectly okay when those Papists killed Central and South American natives and bashed their heads against trees after baptizing them so they wouldn't grow up to be pagans  ::)
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Charles Martel on April 04, 2013, 05:35:34 PM
It was SOOO evil and horrible when those godless Muslims killed Orthodox Christians in their conquests and took young wives, but it was perfectly okay when those Papists killed Central and South American natives and bashed their heads against trees after baptizing them so they wouldn't grow up to be pagans  ::)
Where do you get this stuff form?

The indigenous pagans killed plenty of their own wayy before the "papists" ever came around.

James, you really have some serious hate and bigotry issues  when it comes to "whites" and "papists".

You need to research/study more and post less.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Ansgar on April 04, 2013, 05:47:10 PM
It was SOOO evil and horrible when those godless Muslims killed Orthodox Christians in their conquests and took young wives, but it was perfectly okay when those Papists killed Central and South American natives and bashed their heads against trees after baptizing them so they wouldn't grow up to be pagans  ::)

James, I have been here for over two years nd I have never (at least according to my memory) heard anybody on this forum claiming that the native american genocides were "okay".
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Charles Martel on April 05, 2013, 06:21:39 PM
This bears a curious resemblance to the teachings of (Hassidic?) Judaism on the subject of pegam habrit (literally, "the defilement of the covenant" - brit here also means the organ that bears the mark of the covenant):

http://www.briskodesh.org/pages/bris/spilling-seed.htm (http://www.briskodesh.org/pages/bris/spilling-seed.htm)

http://www.truekabbalah.org/pages/Documents4/k00215.htm (http://www.truekabbalah.org/pages/Documents4/k00215.htm)

Thank you very much Romaios for these insightful links!  It amazes me just how much knowledge is in the Abrahamic religions that is hidden and waiting to be rediscovered.  Most of what these links say I agree in regards to the truth it discusses-- although I don't think the lives of the jinns depends solely on the lust we let out.  I believe that jinns can live off of other things-- but our sins is like a 'drug' to them, and that's why they constantly come at us and whisper negative thoughts.  This is why so many people have addictions and don't understand why.

I don't know if you ever heard story like this.. but there are many females here in the west, who are miserable and lost their self-esteem because when they were young -- in highschool years, they got into relationships very early.  Their male partner put so much 'peer-pressure' and deception to have them fornicate.  The male partner even goes as far as lying to her that they will marry in the future.  But once they fornicated, the male friend never contacts her every again.  They keep asking themselves why this male friend of their left them after they fornicated and she lost her virginity to him.  She becomes so miserable, has so much pain in her heart, and keeps having negative thoughts with future relationships.  What these misguided females don't understand is that the jinns have been running their relationship from the onset-- most likely controlling their male partner (through lust) to push them to commit this sin. When this sin occurs, the jinns enjoy a very powerful negative energy....while the antichrist benifits--who wants to push misery, disorder and poverty into our society.

Quote
What might make Shi'a Islam more appealing to James is the possibility of contracting a temporary marriage. Maybe fibonacci could tell us more about this.

Not all shia's accept this type of marriage.  Personally I don't accept this type of marriage if it is for lustful/sexual purposes.  If it is only to financially take care of a husbandless female for a temproary amount of time... like at times of war or economic suffering then yes it's okay.  Remember an unmarried female and unmarried male who are not from the same family, can not live together.  This temp marriage can be a contract to allow such an arrangement.
How many wives did Muhammed have? How old was Aisha, his third wife, when they got married?
The real question is, just how old was she when they "consumated" the marriage.
I'm still waiting for my answer.

Was your "prophet" a paedophile or not?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Ansgar on April 05, 2013, 06:37:37 PM
This bears a curious resemblance to the teachings of (Hassidic?) Judaism on the subject of pegam habrit (literally, "the defilement of the covenant" - brit here also means the organ that bears the mark of the covenant):

http://www.briskodesh.org/pages/bris/spilling-seed.htm (http://www.briskodesh.org/pages/bris/spilling-seed.htm)

http://www.truekabbalah.org/pages/Documents4/k00215.htm (http://www.truekabbalah.org/pages/Documents4/k00215.htm)

Thank you very much Romaios for these insightful links!  It amazes me just how much knowledge is in the Abrahamic religions that is hidden and waiting to be rediscovered.  Most of what these links say I agree in regards to the truth it discusses-- although I don't think the lives of the jinns depends solely on the lust we let out.  I believe that jinns can live off of other things-- but our sins is like a 'drug' to them, and that's why they constantly come at us and whisper negative thoughts.  This is why so many people have addictions and don't understand why.

I don't know if you ever heard story like this.. but there are many females here in the west, who are miserable and lost their self-esteem because when they were young -- in highschool years, they got into relationships very early.  Their male partner put so much 'peer-pressure' and deception to have them fornicate.  The male partner even goes as far as lying to her that they will marry in the future.  But once they fornicated, the male friend never contacts her every again.  They keep asking themselves why this male friend of their left them after they fornicated and she lost her virginity to him.  She becomes so miserable, has so much pain in her heart, and keeps having negative thoughts with future relationships.  What these misguided females don't understand is that the jinns have been running their relationship from the onset-- most likely controlling their male partner (through lust) to push them to commit this sin. When this sin occurs, the jinns enjoy a very powerful negative energy....while the antichrist benifits--who wants to push misery, disorder and poverty into our society.

Quote
What might make Shi'a Islam more appealing to James is the possibility of contracting a temporary marriage. Maybe fibonacci could tell us more about this.

Not all shia's accept this type of marriage.  Personally I don't accept this type of marriage if it is for lustful/sexual purposes.  If it is only to financially take care of a husbandless female for a temproary amount of time... like at times of war or economic suffering then yes it's okay.  Remember an unmarried female and unmarried male who are not from the same family, can not live together.  This temp marriage can be a contract to allow such an arrangement.
How many wives did Muhammed have? How old was Aisha, his third wife, when they got married?
The real question is, just how old was she when they "consumated" the marriage.
I'm still waiting for my answer.

Was your "prophet" a paedophile or not?

No muslim would say that, obviously.

Personally, I'm not entirely sure. Marriage between children and adults have been practised in many cultures. From what I can find, she never had any children. 
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Charles Martel on April 05, 2013, 07:12:06 PM
Quote
No muslim would say that, obviously.



No, but I would like to see how they dance around that one.

Quote
Personally, I'm not entirely sure. Marriage between children and adults have been practised in many cultures. From what I can find, she never had any children.  

Uhh, dude she was nine.......

I don't know about you, but from where I come from that's child-rape.

I want to be fair to the Muslim posters on here, but grown men having sex with pre-adolscent children is where I draw the line.

I don't care what  some "voice" in the desert told their prophet.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Santagranddad on April 05, 2013, 07:14:48 PM
Remembering that Mohammed is the exemplar in all things for Moslems.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Asteriktos on April 05, 2013, 07:24:28 PM
It is disgusting, really. Even when Christians arranged marriages for young children they at least had the decency to wait until they hit puberty before they forced them to consummate. Oh sorry, this thread is about skeletons in the closet of Islam, not Christianity.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Ansgar on April 05, 2013, 07:34:19 PM
Quote
No muslim would say that, obviously.



No, but I would like to see how they dance around that one.

Quote
Personally, I'm not entirely sure. Marriage between children and adults have been practised in many cultures. From what I can find, she never had any children.  

Uhh, dude she was nine.......

I don't know about you, but from where I come from that's child-rape.

I want to be fair to the Muslim posters on here, but grown men having sex with pre-adolscent children is where I draw the line.

I don't care what  some "voice" in the desert told their prophet.

Indeed, in our eyes it is, but this is not modern time, but 7th century Arabia. Having sex with a nine-year-old is certainly pedhophilia, from a modern viewpoint, but during Muhammed's lifetime, it have appearently been socially acceptable. This doesn't make it right, of course.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: orthonorm on April 05, 2013, 08:26:06 PM
This bears a curious resemblance to the teachings of (Hassidic?) Judaism on the subject of pegam habrit (literally, "the defilement of the covenant" - brit here also means the organ that bears the mark of the covenant):

http://www.briskodesh.org/pages/bris/spilling-seed.htm (http://www.briskodesh.org/pages/bris/spilling-seed.htm)

http://www.truekabbalah.org/pages/Documents4/k00215.htm (http://www.truekabbalah.org/pages/Documents4/k00215.htm)

Thank you very much Romaios for these insightful links!  It amazes me just how much knowledge is in the Abrahamic religions that is hidden and waiting to be rediscovered.  Most of what these links say I agree in regards to the truth it discusses-- although I don't think the lives of the jinns depends solely on the lust we let out.  I believe that jinns can live off of other things-- but our sins is like a 'drug' to them, and that's why they constantly come at us and whisper negative thoughts.  This is why so many people have addictions and don't understand why.

I don't know if you ever heard story like this.. but there are many females here in the west, who are miserable and lost their self-esteem because when they were young -- in highschool years, they got into relationships very early.  Their male partner put so much 'peer-pressure' and deception to have them fornicate.  The male partner even goes as far as lying to her that they will marry in the future.  But once they fornicated, the male friend never contacts her every again.  They keep asking themselves why this male friend of their left them after they fornicated and she lost her virginity to him.  She becomes so miserable, has so much pain in her heart, and keeps having negative thoughts with future relationships.  What these misguided females don't understand is that the jinns have been running their relationship from the onset-- most likely controlling their male partner (through lust) to push them to commit this sin. When this sin occurs, the jinns enjoy a very powerful negative energy....while the antichrist benifits--who wants to push misery, disorder and poverty into our society.

Quote
What might make Shi'a Islam more appealing to James is the possibility of contracting a temporary marriage. Maybe fibonacci could tell us more about this.

Not all shia's accept this type of marriage.  Personally I don't accept this type of marriage if it is for lustful/sexual purposes.  If it is only to financially take care of a husbandless female for a temproary amount of time... like at times of war or economic suffering then yes it's okay.  Remember an unmarried female and unmarried male who are not from the same family, can not live together.  This temp marriage can be a contract to allow such an arrangement.
How many wives did Muhammed have? How old was Aisha, his third wife, when they got married?
The real question is, just how old was she when they "consumated" the marriage.
I'm still waiting for my answer.

Was your "prophet" a paedophile or not?

No. And these boring and typical anti-Muslim ideologically charged questions are boring.  

Even xarskai, who is like one the best interneters ever, has hit a low with the "sources" he is citing here and the questions being asked.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Charles Martel on April 05, 2013, 08:26:38 PM
Quote
No muslim would say that, obviously.



No, but I would like to see how they dance around that one.

Quote
Personally, I'm not entirely sure. Marriage between children and adults have been practised in many cultures. From what I can find, she never had any children.  

Uhh, dude she was nine.......

I don't know about you, but from where I come from that's child-rape.

I want to be fair to the Muslim posters on here, but grown men having sex with pre-adolscent children is where I draw the line.

I don't care what  some "voice" in the desert told their prophet.

Indeed, in our eyes it is, but this is not modern time, but 7th century Arabia. Having sex with a nine-year-old is certainly pedhophilia, from a modern viewpoint, but during Muhammed's lifetime, it have appearently been socially acceptable. This doesn't make it right, of course.
I'm sorry but  having sex with 9yr olds is universally taboo, no matter what century you're in, at least in European culture.

I can't speak for all Middle Easterns throughout all time periods but the better part of my human nature tells me they would pretty much have the same norms and values about pedophila and child-rape.

Maybe I'm wrong.

Either way, I don't want any part of any religion that's Ok with it.

Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: orthonorm on April 05, 2013, 08:27:31 PM
Remembering that Mohammed is the exemplar in all things for Moslems.

This is not the case either.

You are begging way too much.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: orthonorm on April 05, 2013, 08:28:25 PM
Maybe I'm wrong.

Let me help remove your doubts.

You are wrong.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Charles Martel on April 05, 2013, 08:30:44 PM
This bears a curious resemblance to the teachings of (Hassidic?) Judaism on the subject of pegam habrit (literally, "the defilement of the covenant" - brit here also means the organ that bears the mark of the covenant):

http://www.briskodesh.org/pages/bris/spilling-seed.htm (http://www.briskodesh.org/pages/bris/spilling-seed.htm)

http://www.truekabbalah.org/pages/Documents4/k00215.htm (http://www.truekabbalah.org/pages/Documents4/k00215.htm)

Thank you very much Romaios for these insightful links!  It amazes me just how much knowledge is in the Abrahamic religions that is hidden and waiting to be rediscovered.  Most of what these links say I agree in regards to the truth it discusses-- although I don't think the lives of the jinns depends solely on the lust we let out.  I believe that jinns can live off of other things-- but our sins is like a 'drug' to them, and that's why they constantly come at us and whisper negative thoughts.  This is why so many people have addictions and don't understand why.

I don't know if you ever heard story like this.. but there are many females here in the west, who are miserable and lost their self-esteem because when they were young -- in highschool years, they got into relationships very early.  Their male partner put so much 'peer-pressure' and deception to have them fornicate.  The male partner even goes as far as lying to her that they will marry in the future.  But once they fornicated, the male friend never contacts her every again.  They keep asking themselves why this male friend of their left them after they fornicated and she lost her virginity to him.  She becomes so miserable, has so much pain in her heart, and keeps having negative thoughts with future relationships.  What these misguided females don't understand is that the jinns have been running their relationship from the onset-- most likely controlling their male partner (through lust) to push them to commit this sin. When this sin occurs, the jinns enjoy a very powerful negative energy....while the antichrist benifits--who wants to push misery, disorder and poverty into our society.

Quote
What might make Shi'a Islam more appealing to James is the possibility of contracting a temporary marriage. Maybe fibonacci could tell us more about this.

Not all shia's accept this type of marriage.  Personally I don't accept this type of marriage if it is for lustful/sexual purposes.  If it is only to financially take care of a husbandless female for a temproary amount of time... like at times of war or economic suffering then yes it's okay.  Remember an unmarried female and unmarried male who are not from the same family, can not live together.  This temp marriage can be a contract to allow such an arrangement.
How many wives did Muhammed have? How old was Aisha, his third wife, when they got married?
The real question is, just how old was she when they "consumated" the marriage.
I'm still waiting for my answer.

Was your "prophet" a paedophile or not?

No. And these boring and typical anti-Muslim ideologically charged questions are boring.  

Even xarskai, who is like one the best interneters ever, has hit a low with the "sources" he is citing here and the questions being asked.
You have nothing to offer of substance as usual.

Move along now unless you can answer my question with some reliable sources.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Charles Martel on April 05, 2013, 08:32:26 PM
Maybe I'm wrong.

Let me help remove your doubts.

You are wrong.
You bring nothing to the table but your own personal opinons.

Why should I take you seriously?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: orthonorm on April 05, 2013, 08:38:12 PM
Maybe I'm wrong.

Let me help remove your doubts.

You are wrong.
You bring nothing to the table but your own personal opinons.

Why should I take you seriously?

I don't care.

The laziest of google searches would answer your "questions".

By the logic used by the anti-Muslimists, the Virgin Mary's marriage was consummated at age 12.

Do you agree with that? There are "Christian" sources that can back that up.

The scholarship around the hadith is complex, stupidly so. But no, no Muslim is going to tell you Mohamed had sex with a six year old.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Ansgar on April 05, 2013, 08:41:37 PM
Quote
I'm sorry but  having sex with 9yr olds is universally taboo, no matter what century you're in, at least in European culture.

Then, it isn't, per definition, universal.

The question is how different cultures in different time periods may have defined things like pedophilia and rape. Muhammed and Aisha were married, therefore, it might have been seen as morally acceptable for them to have sex.

I am no scholar, so I can't say for sure if this is the case, but I don't think we can, or should, perceive historical event from our modern moral standpoints. Ethics and worldviews have changed tremendously over the centuries.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Charles Martel on April 05, 2013, 09:25:33 PM
Maybe I'm wrong.

Let me help remove your doubts.

You are wrong.
You bring nothing to the table but your own personal opinons.

Why should I take you seriously?

I don't care.

The laziest of google searches would answer your "questions".

By the logic used by the anti-Muslimists, the Virgin Mary's marriage was consummated at age 12.

Do you agree with that? There are "Christian" sources that can back that up.

The scholarship around the hadith is complex, stupidly so. But no, no Muslim is going to tell you Mohamed had sex with a six year old.
In case you didn't bother to read the title of this thread, it's states "Feel free to ask me anything about Islam"....

OK, so no "google searches"  seem necessary at this point.

And I'm not "anti-Muslimists" so go easy with your bogus, loaded terminology when I'm just asking a simple question from a supposed Muslim authrority about Islam.

And while we're at it, you show me where from any credible or legitimate  "christian"source that states that the BVM was first only 12 when she was married to St.Joesph or that the marriage was in any way "consumated".

Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Charles Martel on April 05, 2013, 09:33:47 PM
Quote
I'm sorry but  having sex with 9yr olds is universally taboo, no matter what century you're in, at least in European culture.

Then, it isn't, per definition, universal.

The question is how different cultures in different time periods may have defined things like pedophilia and rape. Muhammed and Aisha were married, therefore, it might have been seen as morally acceptable for them to have sex.

I am no scholar, so I can't say for sure if this is the case, but I don't think we can, or should, perceive historical event from our modern moral standpoints. Ethics and worldviews have changed tremendously over the centuries.
I don't care what their culture "accepts" or accepted, that is some sick, twisted crap.

Some old geezer bedding down with a nine year old is about as un-natural and sexually depraved as it gets.

You will never convince me or most normal thinking male adults that this kind of behavior is some how morally or historically "acceptable" no matter what time period or culture it's in.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Jason.Wike on April 05, 2013, 09:41:39 PM
It was SOOO evil and horrible when those godless Muslims killed Orthodox Christians in their conquests and took young wives, but it was perfectly okay when those Papists killed Central and South American natives and bashed their heads against trees after baptizing them so they wouldn't grow up to be pagans  ::)

Was it ok when you made this up?
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: orthonorm on April 05, 2013, 10:26:53 PM
And while we're at it, you show me where from any credible or legitimate  "christian"source that states that the BVM was first only 12 when she was married to St.Joesph or that the marriage was in any way "consumated".



BMV???? Wow.

OK.

See that bolded stuff. Everyone can play that game. You cherry pick what you think is Islam, then others can do the same for Christianity.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: orthonorm on April 05, 2013, 10:31:05 PM
In case you didn't bother to read the title of this thread, it's states "Feel free to ask me anything about Islam"....

And in case you didn't see my post, these regurgitated anti-Muslim and ill informed "questions" have been addressed ad nauseum pretty much everywhere to whatever degree you would like to delve into them.

Can't use google, then let me help you (a shorten URL which will take you to some answers to your question, it is so lazy I didn't even use "mohamed"):

http://bit.ly/16zogt9

 
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Trebor135 on April 05, 2013, 11:04:47 PM
Remembering that Mohammed is the exemplar in all things for Moslems.

This is not the case either.

You are begging way too much.

Please substantiate your claims.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: essene19 on April 05, 2013, 11:36:56 PM
How come all the Hadiths seem to promote and tolerate violence and immoral practices, whereas, when I read the Quran, it seems to be peaceful for the most part?

It depends on which hadiths you're reading.  Taking a hadith book and reading it without a qualified teacher can be very dangerous, especially if one is not aware of the social/historical context of the hadiths themselves.  And the hadiths are also divided into different categories: there are authentic hadiths, sound hadiths, weak hadiths, fabricated hadiths, etc.

I hate to ask such a general question, but I really can't offer much more as I don't know a lot about Islam, in any case . . .

Given the "problems" with the hadith, what do you make of the Koranist or Koran only trend in contemporary Islam.

When I was looking into Islamic hermeneutics, I was intrigued by this development and surprised by the incredible lack of sophistication of their critics to their approach to understanding the Koran and Islam. It is worse than how many critique so-called sola scriptura Protestants within Orthodoxy. It seemed to me few outside this development took serious the method of the Koranists and offered a proper critique.

I am sympathetic to the sola scriptura folks who are sincerely so, as their method for understanding Scripture is more nuanced than what their detractors would have you believe.

It also seemed that the Koranists were also as a whole more nuanced than their detractors would have you think. And less disperate in belief and practice than their detractors would have you think.

Any opinions of this seemingly new trend within Islam? Perhaps it is a perennial one.

Even though I have some problems with the traditional Muslim approach to hadith, I in no way advocate the sola scriptura attitude advocated by the self proclaimed "Quranists", since they reflect an overall modernist trend that seeks to change religion to fit completely in line with modern social/political norms.  That is a slippery slope and it could lead to a catastrophe that Protestant Christianity has become (that being said, the Salafis are already doing their part in creating more negative presentations of Islam with their despicable behavior, further feeding the idea that Islam is in need of reform).

The hadith are important in the sense that they provide us with some sort historical window, regardless of full blown accuracy, into how the Qur'an's dictates were implemented by the early community in their own unique circumstances.  In addition, there needs to be some link or connection to the Prophetic legacy - if the Qur'an was revealed to the Prophet, then he was its principal teacher (followed by his close companions and associates), and it's always important to have as much information as you can from that teacher in order to better understand the revealed text.

However, the problem lies in the fact that the collectors and scholars of hadith only examined the authenticity (or lack thereof) of the hadiths, they never bothered to study the social/historical contexts and specific occasions in which the sayings of the Prophet took place.  Let me give you an example: there are many hadiths where the Prophet advises believers to read/recite certain verses of the Qur'an on specific occasions to gain some sort of spiritual benefit - these admonitions probably took place in the midst of long conversations with his companions, perhaps even Qur'anic study circles inside the mosque.  However, when you read the isolated hadith itself in the hadith book, you'll never get that impression.  It's as if the Prophet just dropped along and suddenly made one admonition, and then walked away.  The initial narrator probably heard something in the conversation with Prophet that drew his/her attention, decided to quote it, and then pass it along to the following generations, but that only reflects that narrator's own subjective bias (and I don't mean that in a bad way).

What's unfortunate is that if you go through most of the hadith corpus, you'll find very little of the Prophet coming together with his companions to study the Qur'an - most of the hadiths are about actions or matters dealing in the social/political realm, a fact that most likely reflects the bias of the times in which they were compiled.  Even though many traditions were circulating well before that , the hadith books and schools of jurisprudence solidified during and after the Abbassid Revolution.  To think that politics in any way did not interfere in what was emphasized in these collections would be a little naive.  Even the famous Ibn Ishaq biography of the Prophet (which Robert Spencer and co love to use) was compiled during this era, and nowhere in that biography of Muhammad will you ever find an explanation of his life as the Messenger of God - it simply recounts his life as a hero-warrior.  This shows me that some of the Muslims of that time were more interested in statecraft and political matters rather than the spiritual dimension of the faith, which would later explain the rise of the Sufi brotherhoods (who themselves claim to be heirs to Muhammad's legacy, albeit in a different way).

When it comes to the Qur'an, there needs to be a proper methodology to go about examining and interpreting the text, and I think some of the jurists in Islam's have not done a very good job at establishing one - they treated the Qur'an more like a legal manual to back up this or that fatwa, even though the Qur'an's legal dimension is very miniscule in relation to other parts of the text.

Only in the heavyweights, like Rumi or Ghazali (and a few others), do you see a very strong emphasis on the Qur'an. These two men were jurists before they became Sufis, and the works they produced after their turn to spiritual sciences show how central the Qur'an was to their way of thinking.  They did not reject their juristic legacies by any means, but they came to realize that for too long, Muslims placed too much of an emphasis on the law at the expense of its spirit.

In a way, you can say that Islam's problem is a pharisaic one.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: essene19 on April 05, 2013, 11:39:18 PM
This bears a curious resemblance to the teachings of (Hassidic?) Judaism on the subject of pegam habrit (literally, "the defilement of the covenant" - brit here also means the organ that bears the mark of the covenant):

http://www.briskodesh.org/pages/bris/spilling-seed.htm (http://www.briskodesh.org/pages/bris/spilling-seed.htm)

http://www.truekabbalah.org/pages/Documents4/k00215.htm (http://www.truekabbalah.org/pages/Documents4/k00215.htm)

Thank you very much Romaios for these insightful links!  It amazes me just how much knowledge is in the Abrahamic religions that is hidden and waiting to be rediscovered.  Most of what these links say I agree in regards to the truth it discusses-- although I don't think the lives of the jinns depends solely on the lust we let out.  I believe that jinns can live off of other things-- but our sins is like a 'drug' to them, and that's why they constantly come at us and whisper negative thoughts.  This is why so many people have addictions and don't understand why.

I don't know if you ever heard story like this.. but there are many females here in the west, who are miserable and lost their self-esteem because when they were young -- in highschool years, they got into relationships very early.  Their male partner put so much 'peer-pressure' and deception to have them fornicate.  The male partner even goes as far as lying to her that they will marry in the future.  But once they fornicated, the male friend never contacts her every again.  They keep asking themselves why this male friend of their left them after they fornicated and she lost her virginity to him.  She becomes so miserable, has so much pain in her heart, and keeps having negative thoughts with future relationships.  What these misguided females don't understand is that the jinns have been running their relationship from the onset-- most likely controlling their male partner (through lust) to push them to commit this sin. When this sin occurs, the jinns enjoy a very powerful negative energy....while the antichrist benifits--who wants to push misery, disorder and poverty into our society.

Quote
What might make Shi'a Islam more appealing to James is the possibility of contracting a temporary marriage. Maybe fibonacci could tell us more about this.

Not all shia's accept this type of marriage.  Personally I don't accept this type of marriage if it is for lustful/sexual purposes.  If it is only to financially take care of a husbandless female for a temproary amount of time... like at times of war or economic suffering then yes it's okay.  Remember an unmarried female and unmarried male who are not from the same family, can not live together.  This temp marriage can be a contract to allow such an arrangement.
How many wives did Muhammed have? How old was Aisha, his third wife, when they got married?
The real question is, just how old was she when they "consumated" the marriage.
I'm still waiting for my answer.

Was your "prophet" a paedophile or not?

To answer your question in short, no, Muhammad was not a pedophile.  If you actually look up the psychological profile of a pedophile and look into the historical sources chronicling aspects of Muhammad’s life, you’ll see that he does not fit the bill (even if you go by the idea that he was a violent warrior).

Also, the issue of Aisha’s age is still debated amongst Muslims to this very day – there are those who claim that there is evidence to show that she was indeed older, anywhere from 14-19, and others abide by the age 9 claim.  The consensus, however, is that the marriage was reportedly consummated when she reached puberty. 

I have also heard one other theory – that some young women at that time began counting their age AFTER they hit puberty.  But I have no way of verifying that, so I’ll just leave it.

Even if Muhammad was indeed this sick, pervert that people make him out to be, wouldn’t you think Aisha’s father, Abu Bakr, who also happened to be Muhammad’s best friend, would have done something about it?  At least protested or gave some inclination that he found his best friend’s behavior to be dubious?  And not to mention all of Muhammad’s many other followers and contemporaries, who still, upon his death, considered him to be a moral and trustworthy man?

As someone else here mentioned, Aisha did not bear any children, and we know for a fact that Muhammad was not sterile when he was married to her, since Mariyah the Copt bore him a son, who later died in infancy.  All of his other children were from Khadija (a woman who was reportedly 15 years his senior when she married him), and with the exception of one daughter, they all died before his death.

To think that a lying scoundrel and a terrorist pedophile can establish a religion that ends up having a billion adherents is not only historically unsound, but in my opinion, it just represents a bad opinion of God.  Falsehood cannot be upheld for this long to this capacity, no matter how violent or crazy its followers can be considered to be.

No one has to or is obligated to accept Muhammad as a prophet – if he was a prophet, which I believe he was, then God is sufficient as a witness.  If other Muslims are not secure enough within their own faith to leave it at that, then that’s their problem, not mine.  Same goes for non-Muslims.

Legitimate criticism is one thing, but unrealistic labeling of a historical individual is another.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: essene19 on April 05, 2013, 11:44:04 PM
Remembering that Mohammed is the exemplar in all things for Moslems.

Partially true in theory, but which Muhammad are we talking about?  Different groups of Muslims will all paint different pictures of Muhammad that they latch onto as their model, so to speak.

And I've heard the argument that the jihadis of today can find examples in Muhammad's life to support their claims, but here's the problem - this isn't 7th century Arabia populated by disunited pagan tribes, and their armies aren't being led by an actual leader who can claim any kind of divine guidance.  Not to mention that warfare in the Prophet's time always had a specific objective and purpose, and was not intended for wanton wholesale chaos, murder, and destruction.  Self defense is one thing, but the methodology of these jihadi idiots is flawed and unsound, and their abysmal behavior across the globe more than shows that.  At their very core, they are nihilistic anarchists who don't know how to react to the conditions of the post-modern world, and unfortunately, they don't realize the very spiritual disease that lies deep within their hearts.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: essene19 on April 05, 2013, 11:47:08 PM
What is your opinion of the recently issued Fatwa allowing rape of non-Sunni women in Syria? The following article also makes the point that in historical Islam such a practice is hardly an aberration; can you comment on this issue as well?

Quote from: Raymond Ibriham
Human Events
New Fatwa Permits Rape of Non-Sunni Women in Syria

Yet another Islamic cleric recently made it permissible for the Islamic fighters waging a jihad in Syria—politely known as “the opposition”—to rape the nation’s women.

‘Ajlawni: Justifying rape in Islam’s name

Salafi Sheikh Yasir al-‘Ajlawni, a Jordanian of origin who earlier lived in Damascus, Syria for 17 years, posted a YouTube video last week where he said he was preparing to issue a “legitimate fatwa” making it legal (in the eyes of Islam) for those Muslims fighting to topple secular president Bashar Assad and install Sharia law to “capture and have sex with” all non-Sunni women, specifically naming Assad’s own sect, the Alawites, as well as the Druze and several others, in short, all non-Sunnis and non-Muslims.
READ MORE HERE  (http://www.raymondibrahim.com/from-the-arab-world/new-fatwa-permits-rape-of-non-sunni-women-in-syria/)

Well, the key word in this disgusting fatwa is "Salafi".  I can go on a whole diatribe of what this satanic cult really is, but then again, I don't want to engage in foul language, so I'll just leave it at that.  The only reason why they have become so powerful is because of the petrodollars from Saudi Arabia that funds them and their sick ideology.  The Salafis are one of the main reasons why Christians have it so bad in Egypt and why that country in particular is falling apart.

As for Raymond Ibrahim, you do realize that he is not the most unbiased source of information on Islam, right?  I mean, I can understand the guy's anger, given his background and all, but at this point, it seems like he has more of a personal axe to grind with Muslims rather than pursue a serious, scholarly enterprise.  People like him and Robert Spencer only exacerbate the problem, not make it better.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: essene19 on April 05, 2013, 11:55:06 PM
- The concept of abrogation is a concept popular amongst both Islamists and detractors of Islam - there is this idea that later verses annul or abolish earlier, more peaceful verses.  I find this to be a completely erroneous idea, and the fact that Muslim scholars throughout the centuries have never been able to agree on which verses are abrogated or not further proves the shaky foundations of the doctrine.
It is interesting to hear the claim that abrogation (i.e. newer revelations override the older ones) is erroneous. Abrogation is affirmed by many prominent scholars of Islam who argue that without abrogation there would be logical contradictions in the Quran,[1] and that furthermore it is explicitly taught by the Quran, multiple times in fact.

"Many verses counsel patience in the face of the mockery of the unbelievers, while other verses incite to warfare against the unbelievers. The former are linked to the [chronologically anterior] Meccan phase of the mission when the Muslims were too few and weak to do other than endure insult; the latter are linked to Medina where the Prophet had acquired the numbers and the strength to hit back at his enemies. The discrepancy between the two sets of verses indicates that different situations call for different regulations."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naskh_(tafsir)

Quote from: Abrogation in Islam / Middle East Quarterly
Four verses in the Qu'ran acknowledge or justify abrogation:

    When we cancel a message, or throw it into oblivion, we replace it with one better or one similar. Do you not know that God has power over all things?[10]
    When we replace a message with another, and God knows best what he reveals, they say: You have made it up. Yet, most of them do not know.[11]
    God abrogates or confirms whatsoever he will, for he has with him the Book of the Books.[12]
    If we pleased, we could take away what we have revealed to you. Then you will not find anyone to plead for it with us.[13]
__________
[9] Bell, Introduction to the Qur'an, pp. 86-107; Arthur Jeffery, Islam: Muhammad and His Religion (Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill, 1958), p. 66.
[10] Qur. 2:106.
[11] Qur. 16:101.
[12] Qur. 13:39.
[13] Qur. 17:86.


David Bukay “Peace or Jihad? Abrogation in Islam,” Middle East Quarterly, VOL XIV, NO. 4, Fall 2007, pp. 3-11
http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam#_ftnref14  
 

Question: if as seems to be the case rejection of abrogation is "outside the mainstream and, perhaps even the religion itself" (Bukay, op cit) the rejection of abrogation no less than the fact you mentioned that Muslim scholars have never been able to agree on which verses were abrogated seems to suggest not the nature of Islam (singular) but Islams (plural). If the mainstream of historical Islam and Islamic jurists is wrong and is unable to present a unified view why should we suppose some fellow on the internet represents True Islam? (perhaps your variety might be an instance of a "prettier face," but if it is a fringe viewpoint at the very least it does not abrogate the problems associated with the doctrine of abrogation for the non-Muslim world in mainstream and historical Islam.

Quote from: Abrogation in Islam / Middle East Quarterly
"Most scholars divide the Qur'an into verses revealed by Muhammad in Mecca when his community of followers was weak and more inclined to compromise, and those revealed in Medina, where Muhammad's strength grew. Classical scholars argued that anyone who studied the Qur'an without having mastered the doctrine of abrogation would be "deficient."[15] Those who do not accept abrogation fall outside the mainstream and, perhaps, even the religion itself. The Ahmadiyah sect, for example, today concentrated in Pakistan, consistently rejects abrogation because it undercuts the notion that the Qur'an is free from errors.[16] Many Muslims consider Ahmadis, who also see their founder as a prophet, to be apostates.
_____________________
[14] John Burton, The Encyclopedia of Islam, vol. 7, s.v. "Naskh," p. 1010.
[15] Abu al-Kasim Hibat-Allah Ibn Salama, An-Nasikh wal-Mansukh (Cairo: Dar al-Ma'arif, 1966), pp. 4-5, 123. On pp. 142-3, he lists the abrogated verses. See also pp. 7, 11, 26-7, 37, 46.
[16] Maulana Muhammad Ali, The Religion of Islam (Lahore: Ahmadiyya Anjuman Isha'at Islam, 2005), p. 32; Ahmad bin Muhammad al-Nahhas, An-Nasikh Wal-Mansukh (Cairo: Maktabat ‘Alam al-Fikr, 1986), pp. 2-3.


David Bukay “Peace or Jihad? Abrogation in Islam,” Middle East Quarterly, VOL XIV, NO. 4, Fall 2007, pp. 3-11
http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam#_ftnref14  

Thanks for your replies; I will ask more on the topic of friendship in a bit, also with attention to the way the issue plays out historiographically and in contemporary Islamic scholarship and culture in addition to individual examples of dissent which however more conciliatory and attractive they indeed may be, do not seem to represent the mainstream thus defined regardless of presentations by e.g. popular apologists.
__________
[1]
(http://i.imgur.com/A8kFI4E.png)

Just off the top of my head, I can think of Muhammad Asad as someone who rejected the theory of abrogation, and his reasoning is quite convincing.  If you look at this scholarly credentials, you'll see that he studied enough to know what he is talking about.

And how would you define the Islamic mainstream?  Do you think that any ordinary believer out on the street in a Muslim country even knows what the theory of abrogation is?  If I asked all the worshipers at my local mosque, all of whom pray 5 times a day, what the theory of abrogation was, they wouldn't even know what I'm talking about.  The books of the jurists was by no means mainstream, and they are, to this day, the domain of Islam's more scholarly class, not lay believers.

According to Hamza Yusuf, there are only 4 verses in the Qur'an supposedly over which there are no differences of opinion regarding abrogration, (I believe it was the verses about alcohol, I'll have to read up on it) - all the others have been up for debate.  The fact that Muslim scholar have been debating this for centuries without much of a consensus shows how problematic the theory is.  Even someone like Ibn Taymiyya presented a more nuanced approach, saying that if the historical circumstances of a certain verse became applicable once again, then it is that verse that applies, not a later verse.

Based on my own study and observation, I don't buy the theory of abrogation, and unless I see some really convincing evidence, I never will.  And I don't consider myself to be an apologist in any way, shape, or form.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Velsigne on April 06, 2013, 01:25:43 AM
- The concept of abrogation is a concept popular amongst both Islamists and detractors of Islam - there is this idea that later verses annul or abolish earlier, more peaceful verses.  I find this to be a completely erroneous idea, and the fact that Muslim scholars throughout the centuries have never been able to agree on which verses are abrogated or not further proves the shaky foundations of the doctrine.
It is interesting to hear the claim that abrogation (i.e. newer revelations override the older ones) is erroneous. Abrogation is affirmed by many prominent scholars of Islam who argue that without abrogation there would be logical contradictions in the Quran,[1] and that furthermore it is explicitly taught by the Quran, multiple times in fact.

"Many verses counsel patience in the face of the mockery of the unbelievers, while other verses incite to warfare against the unbelievers. The former are linked to the [chronologically anterior] Meccan phase of the mission when the Muslims were too few and weak to do other than endure insult; the latter are linked to Medina where the Prophet had acquired the numbers and the strength to hit back at his enemies. The discrepancy between the two sets of verses indicates that different situations call for different regulations."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naskh_(tafsir)

Quote from: Abrogation in Islam / Middle East Quarterly
Four verses in the Qu'ran acknowledge or justify abrogation:

    When we cancel a message, or throw it into oblivion, we replace it with one better or one similar. Do you not know that God has power over all things?[10]
    When we replace a message with another, and God knows best what he reveals, they say: You have made it up. Yet, most of them do not know.[11]
    God abrogates or confirms whatsoever he will, for he has with him the Book of the Books.[12]
    If we pleased, we could take away what we have revealed to you. Then you will not find anyone to plead for it with us.[13]
__________
[9] Bell, Introduction to the Qur'an, pp. 86-107; Arthur Jeffery, Islam: Muhammad and His Religion (Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill, 1958), p. 66.
[10] Qur. 2:106.
[11] Qur. 16:101.
[12] Qur. 13:39.
[13] Qur. 17:86.


David Bukay “Peace or Jihad? Abrogation in Islam,” Middle East Quarterly, VOL XIV, NO. 4, Fall 2007, pp. 3-11
http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam#_ftnref14  
 

Question: if as seems to be the case rejection of abrogation is "outside the mainstream and, perhaps even the religion itself" (Bukay, op cit) the rejection of abrogation no less than the fact you mentioned that Muslim scholars have never been able to agree on which verses were abrogated seems to suggest not the nature of Islam (singular) but Islams (plural). If the mainstream of historical Islam and Islamic jurists is wrong and is unable to present a unified view why should we suppose some fellow on the internet represents True Islam? (perhaps your variety might be an instance of a "prettier face," but if it is a fringe viewpoint at the very least it does not abrogate the problems associated with the doctrine of abrogation for the non-Muslim world in mainstream and historical Islam.

Quote from: Abrogation in Islam / Middle East Quarterly
"Most scholars divide the Qur'an into verses revealed by Muhammad in Mecca when his community of followers was weak and more inclined to compromise, and those revealed in Medina, where Muhammad's strength grew. Classical scholars argued that anyone who studied the Qur'an without having mastered the doctrine of abrogation would be "deficient."[15] Those who do not accept abrogation fall outside the mainstream and, perhaps, even the religion itself. The Ahmadiyah sect, for example, today concentrated in Pakistan, consistently rejects abrogation because it undercuts the notion that the Qur'an is free from errors.[16] Many Muslims consider Ahmadis, who also see their founder as a prophet, to be apostates.
_____________________
[14] John Burton, The Encyclopedia of Islam, vol. 7, s.v. "Naskh," p. 1010.
[15] Abu al-Kasim Hibat-Allah Ibn Salama, An-Nasikh wal-Mansukh (Cairo: Dar al-Ma'arif, 1966), pp. 4-5, 123. On pp. 142-3, he lists the abrogated verses. See also pp. 7, 11, 26-7, 37, 46.
[16] Maulana Muhammad Ali, The Religion of Islam (Lahore: Ahmadiyya Anjuman Isha'at Islam, 2005), p. 32; Ahmad bin Muhammad al-Nahhas, An-Nasikh Wal-Mansukh (Cairo: Maktabat ‘Alam al-Fikr, 1986), pp. 2-3.


David Bukay “Peace or Jihad? Abrogation in Islam,” Middle East Quarterly, VOL XIV, NO. 4, Fall 2007, pp. 3-11
http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam#_ftnref14  

Thanks for your replies; I will ask more on the topic of friendship in a bit, also with attention to the way the issue plays out historiographically and in contemporary Islamic scholarship and culture in addition to individual examples of dissent which however more conciliatory and attractive they indeed may be, do not seem to represent the mainstream thus defined regardless of presentations by e.g. popular apologists.
__________
[1]
(http://i.imgur.com/A8kFI4E.png)

Just off the top of my head, I can think of Muhammad Asad as someone who rejected the theory of abrogation, and his reasoning is quite convincing.  If you look at this scholarly credentials, you'll see that he studied enough to know what he is talking about.

And how would you define the Islamic mainstream?  Do you think that any ordinary believer out on the street in a Muslim country even knows what the theory of abrogation is?  If I asked all the worshipers at my local mosque, all of whom pray 5 times a day, what the theory of abrogation was, they wouldn't even know what I'm talking about.  The books of the jurists was by no means mainstream, and they are, to this day, the domain of Islam's more scholarly class, not lay believers.

According to Hamza Yusuf, there are only 4 verses in the Qur'an supposedly over which there are no differences of opinion regarding abrogration, (I believe it was the verses about alcohol, I'll have to read up on it) - all the others have been up for debate.  The fact that Muslim scholar have been debating this for centuries without much of a consensus shows how problematic the theory is.  Even someone like Ibn Taymiyya presented a more nuanced approach, saying that if the historical circumstances of a certain verse became applicable once again, then it is that verse that applies, not a later verse.

Based on my own study and observation, I don't buy the theory of abrogation, and unless I see some really convincing evidence, I never will.  And I don't consider myself to be an apologist in any way, shape, or form.

Which branch or form of Islam do you practice?   Were you raised Muslim or did you convert?  If you are a convert, did you convert in the United States or a western country?  

I'm sorry if you've already mentioned that somewhere and I missed it.  

I will test your theory about abrogration out on my Shia friend and see what he says.  He comes from a Sunni dominated country. 
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Charles Martel on April 06, 2013, 06:28:24 AM
And while we're at it, you show me where from any credible or legitimate  "christian"source that states that the BVM was first only 12 when she was married to St.Joesph or that the marriage was in any way "consumated".



BMV???? Wow.

OK.

See that bolded stuff. Everyone can play that game. You cherry pick what you think is Islam, then others can do the same for Christianity.
What the heck is BMV?  ???

I'm not cherrypicking nothing, Aisha's age is well documented amongst Islamic scholars, the age of the Blessed Mother of Christ is not.

Neither is the fact that she "consumated" anything with St. Joesph.

No games here Ortho, just getting at the truth.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Charles Martel on April 06, 2013, 06:35:05 AM
In case you didn't bother to read the title of this thread, it's states "Feel free to ask me anything about Islam"....

And in case you didn't see my post, these regurgitated anti-Muslim and ill informed "questions" have been addressed ad nauseum pretty much everywhere to whatever degree you would like to delve into them.

Can't use google, then let me help you (a shorten URL which will take you to some answers to your question, it is so lazy I didn't even use "mohamed"):

http://bit.ly/16zogt9

 
Go do your own homework, I'll let the Muslim do his best in explaining these things since he made the offer to begin with.

And no, I'm not going back 11 pages look for answers that might be buried in a sea of rhetoric.

Better yet, why don't you start a thread defending the desert prophet and the accusations surrounding him concerning pedophilia if you're so sure it's a bunch of "anti-Muslim" propaganda.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Charles Martel on April 06, 2013, 06:38:33 AM
This bears a curious resemblance to the teachings of (Hassidic?) Judaism on the subject of pegam habrit (literally, "the defilement of the covenant" - brit here also means the organ that bears the mark of the covenant):

http://www.briskodesh.org/pages/bris/spilling-seed.htm (http://www.briskodesh.org/pages/bris/spilling-seed.htm)

http://www.truekabbalah.org/pages/Documents4/k00215.htm (http://www.truekabbalah.org/pages/Documents4/k00215.htm)

Thank you very much Romaios for these insightful links!  It amazes me just how much knowledge is in the Abrahamic religions that is hidden and waiting to be rediscovered.  Most of what these links say I agree in regards to the truth it discusses-- although I don't think the lives of the jinns depends solely on the lust we let out.  I believe that jinns can live off of other things-- but our sins is like a 'drug' to them, and that's why they constantly come at us and whisper negative thoughts.  This is why so many people have addictions and don't understand why.

I don't know if you ever heard story like this.. but there are many females here in the west, who are miserable and lost their self-esteem because when they were young -- in highschool years, they got into relationships very early.  Their male partner put so much 'peer-pressure' and deception to have them fornicate.  The male partner even goes as far as lying to her that they will marry in the future.  But once they fornicated, the male friend never contacts her every again.  They keep asking themselves why this male friend of their left them after they fornicated and she lost her virginity to him.  She becomes so miserable, has so much pain in her heart, and keeps having negative thoughts with future relationships.  What these misguided females don't understand is that the jinns have been running their relationship from the onset-- most likely controlling their male partner (through lust) to push them to commit this sin. When this sin occurs, the jinns enjoy a very powerful negative energy....while the antichrist benifits--who wants to push misery, disorder and poverty into our society.

Quote
What might make Shi'a Islam more appealing to James is the possibility of contracting a temporary marriage. Maybe fibonacci could tell us more about this.

Not all shia's accept this type of marriage.  Personally I don't accept this type of marriage if it is for lustful/sexual purposes.  If it is only to financially take care of a husbandless female for a temproary amount of time... like at times of war or economic suffering then yes it's okay.  Remember an unmarried female and unmarried male who are not from the same family, can not live together.  This temp marriage can be a contract to allow such an arrangement.
How many wives did Muhammed have? How old was Aisha, his third wife, when they got married?
The real question is, just how old was she when they "consumated" the marriage.
I'm still waiting for my answer.

Was your "prophet" a paedophile or not?

To answer your question in short, no, Muhammad was not a pedophile.  If you actually look up the psychological profile of a pedophile and look into the historical sources chronicling aspects of Muhammad’s life, you’ll see that he does not fit the bill (even if you go by the idea that he was a violent warrior).

Also, the issue of Aisha’s age is still debated amongst Muslims to this very day – there are those who claim that there is evidence to show that she was indeed older, anywhere from 14-19, and others abide by the age 9 claim.  The consensus, however, is that the marriage was reportedly consummated when she reached puberty. 

I have also heard one other theory – that some young women at that time began counting their age AFTER they hit puberty.  But I have no way of verifying that, so I’ll just leave it.

Even if Muhammad was indeed this sick, pervert that people make him out to be, wouldn’t you think Aisha’s father, Abu Bakr, who also happened to be Muhammad’s best friend, would have done something about it?  At least protested or gave some inclination that he found his best friend’s behavior to be dubious?  And not to mention all of Muhammad’s many other followers and contemporaries, who still, upon his death, considered him to be a moral and trustworthy man?

As someone else here mentioned, Aisha did not bear any children, and we know for a fact that Muhammad was not sterile when he was married to her, since Mariyah the Copt bore him a son, who later died in infancy.  All of his other children were from Khadija (a woman who was reportedly 15 years his senior when she married him), and with the exception of one daughter, they all died before his death.

To think that a lying scoundrel and a terrorist pedophile can establish a religion that ends up having a billion adherents is not only historically unsound, but in my opinion, it just represents a bad opinion of God.  Falsehood cannot be upheld for this long to this capacity, no matter how violent or crazy its followers can be considered to be.

No one has to or is obligated to accept Muhammad as a prophet – if he was a prophet, which I believe he was, then God is sufficient as a witness.  If other Muslims are not secure enough within their own faith to leave it at that, then that’s their problem, not mine.  Same goes for non-Muslims.

Legitimate criticism is one thing, but unrealistic labeling of a historical individual is another.
Thanks Essene, some valid points here. I will dissect it later and have some feedback when I have the time.

Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: essene19 on April 06, 2013, 08:58:13 AM
- The concept of abrogation is a concept popular amongst both Islamists and detractors of Islam - there is this idea that later verses annul or abolish earlier, more peaceful verses.  I find this to be a completely erroneous idea, and the fact that Muslim scholars throughout the centuries have never been able to agree on which verses are abrogated or not further proves the shaky foundations of the doctrine.
It is interesting to hear the claim that abrogation (i.e. newer revelations override the older ones) is erroneous. Abrogation is affirmed by many prominent scholars of Islam who argue that without abrogation there would be logical contradictions in the Quran,[1] and that furthermore it is explicitly taught by the Quran, multiple times in fact.

"Many verses counsel patience in the face of the mockery of the unbelievers, while other verses incite to warfare against the unbelievers. The former are linked to the [chronologically anterior] Meccan phase of the mission when the Muslims were too few and weak to do other than endure insult; the latter are linked to Medina where the Prophet had acquired the numbers and the strength to hit back at his enemies. The discrepancy between the two sets of verses indicates that different situations call for different regulations."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naskh_(tafsir)

Quote from: Abrogation in Islam / Middle East Quarterly
Four verses in the Qu'ran acknowledge or justify abrogation:

    When we cancel a message, or throw it into oblivion, we replace it with one better or one similar. Do you not know that God has power over all things?[10]
    When we replace a message with another, and God knows best what he reveals, they say: You have made it up. Yet, most of them do not know.[11]
    God abrogates or confirms whatsoever he will, for he has with him the Book of the Books.[12]
    If we pleased, we could take away what we have revealed to you. Then you will not find anyone to plead for it with us.[13]
__________
[9] Bell, Introduction to the Qur'an, pp. 86-107; Arthur Jeffery, Islam: Muhammad and His Religion (Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill, 1958), p. 66.
[10] Qur. 2:106.
[11] Qur. 16:101.
[12] Qur. 13:39.
[13] Qur. 17:86.


David Bukay “Peace or Jihad? Abrogation in Islam,” Middle East Quarterly, VOL XIV, NO. 4, Fall 2007, pp. 3-11
http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam#_ftnref14  
 

Question: if as seems to be the case rejection of abrogation is "outside the mainstream and, perhaps even the religion itself" (Bukay, op cit) the rejection of abrogation no less than the fact you mentioned that Muslim scholars have never been able to agree on which verses were abrogated seems to suggest not the nature of Islam (singular) but Islams (plural). If the mainstream of historical Islam and Islamic jurists is wrong and is unable to present a unified view why should we suppose some fellow on the internet represents True Islam? (perhaps your variety might be an instance of a "prettier face," but if it is a fringe viewpoint at the very least it does not abrogate the problems associated with the doctrine of abrogation for the non-Muslim world in mainstream and historical Islam.

Quote from: Abrogation in Islam / Middle East Quarterly
"Most scholars divide the Qur'an into verses revealed by Muhammad in Mecca when his community of followers was weak and more inclined to compromise, and those revealed in Medina, where Muhammad's strength grew. Classical scholars argued that anyone who studied the Qur'an without having mastered the doctrine of abrogation would be "deficient."[15] Those who do not accept abrogation fall outside the mainstream and, perhaps, even the religion itself. The Ahmadiyah sect, for example, today concentrated in Pakistan, consistently rejects abrogation because it undercuts the notion that the Qur'an is free from errors.[16] Many Muslims consider Ahmadis, who also see their founder as a prophet, to be apostates.
_____________________
[14] John Burton, The Encyclopedia of Islam, vol. 7, s.v. "Naskh," p. 1010.
[15] Abu al-Kasim Hibat-Allah Ibn Salama, An-Nasikh wal-Mansukh (Cairo: Dar al-Ma'arif, 1966), pp. 4-5, 123. On pp. 142-3, he lists the abrogated verses. See also pp. 7, 11, 26-7, 37, 46.
[16] Maulana Muhammad Ali, The Religion of Islam (Lahore: Ahmadiyya Anjuman Isha'at Islam, 2005), p. 32; Ahmad bin Muhammad al-Nahhas, An-Nasikh Wal-Mansukh (Cairo: Maktabat ‘Alam al-Fikr, 1986), pp. 2-3.


David Bukay “Peace or Jihad? Abrogation in Islam,” Middle East Quarterly, VOL XIV, NO. 4, Fall 2007, pp. 3-11
http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam#_ftnref14  

Thanks for your replies; I will ask more on the topic of friendship in a bit, also with attention to the way the issue plays out historiographically and in contemporary Islamic scholarship and culture in addition to individual examples of dissent which however more conciliatory and attractive they indeed may be, do not seem to represent the mainstream thus defined regardless of presentations by e.g. popular apologists.
__________
[1]
(http://i.imgur.com/A8kFI4E.png)

Just off the top of my head, I can think of Muhammad Asad as someone who rejected the theory of abrogation, and his reasoning is quite convincing.  If you look at this scholarly credentials, you'll see that he studied enough to know what he is talking about.

And how would you define the Islamic mainstream?  Do you think that any ordinary believer out on the street in a Muslim country even knows what the theory of abrogation is?  If I asked all the worshipers at my local mosque, all of whom pray 5 times a day, what the theory of abrogation was, they wouldn't even know what I'm talking about.  The books of the jurists was by no means mainstream, and they are, to this day, the domain of Islam's more scholarly class, not lay believers.

According to Hamza Yusuf, there are only 4 verses in the Qur'an supposedly over which there are no differences of opinion regarding abrogration, (I believe it was the verses about alcohol, I'll have to read up on it) - all the others have been up for debate.  The fact that Muslim scholar have been debating this for centuries without much of a consensus shows how problematic the theory is.  Even someone like Ibn Taymiyya presented a more nuanced approach, saying that if the historical circumstances of a certain verse became applicable once again, then it is that verse that applies, not a later verse.

Based on my own study and observation, I don't buy the theory of abrogation, and unless I see some really convincing evidence, I never will.  And I don't consider myself to be an apologist in any way, shape, or form.

Which branch or form of Islam do you practice?   Were you raised Muslim or did you convert?  If you are a convert, did you convert in the United States or a western country?  

I'm sorry if you've already mentioned that somewhere and I missed it.  

I will test your theory about abrogration out on my Shia friend and see what he says.  He comes from a Sunni dominated country. 

I was born and raised Muslim, and I come from a Sunni background.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: dzheremi on April 06, 2013, 09:33:22 AM
To think that a lying scoundrel and a terrorist pedophile can establish a religion that ends up having a billion adherents is not only historically unsound, but in my opinion, it just represents a bad opinion of God.  Falsehood cannot be upheld for this long to this capacity, no matter how violent or crazy its followers can be considered to be.

I don't see why not. Looking at Christian history, we find plenty of heresies that have persisted into the modern day despite being even older than Islam, for instance Sabellianism and Arianism (though the people professing them have likely never heard these terms). Never underestimate the power of bad theology delivered to people that can't understand or accept good theology. In fact, I have read more than one sympathetic treatment of the history of Islam that predicated its domination of the Christian East on its relatively simple theology in comparison to the doctrines of Christianity, i.e., that at least some people may have accepted Islam not by force but by reasoning that it was in a sense a "simpler" form of Christianity (and I could see how they could think that, given the stress that Muhammad put early on in his career on this "your Lord and my Lord" business, when he was still trying to gain the acceptance of the mostly non-Muslim populace). Of course, we know that it isn't, but not everyone is as clever as the modern person.

So I'm going to have to disagree with you here. In the case of Islam, falsehood has 'held up' for 1400+ years, and shows no sign of going away any time soon. Lord have mercy. It doesn't present a bad opinion of God, either. When someone is wrong but considers themselves or their religion to be God-inspired or directed, it's not God's fault that they are delusional and wrong. Only if you take the view that God has to personally stamp out every wrong idea does it reflect badly on God that wrong ideas persist, but I would hope that Christians at least have a more nuanced view of things than that. Without it, I'd think we would all fall pray to atheistic arguments about why God doesn't heal everyone, why good things happen to bad people, and all manner of other things that it's not God's responsibility to fix for us just because we don't like them.
Title: Re: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...
Post by: Velsigne on April 06, 2013, 10:34:28 AM
- The concept of abrogation is a concept popular amongst both Islamists and detractors of Islam - there is this idea that later verses annul or abolish earlier, more peaceful verses.  I find this to be a completely erroneous idea, and the fact that Muslim scholars throughout the centuries have never been able to agree on which verses are abrogated or not further proves the shaky foundations of the doctrine.
It is interesting to hear the claim that abrogation (i.e. newer revelations override the older ones) is erroneous. Abrogation is affirmed by many prominent scholars of Islam who argue that without abrogation there would be logical contradictions in the Quran,[1] and that furthermore it is explicitly taught by the Quran, multiple times in fact.

"Many verses counsel patience in the face of the mockery of the unbelievers, while other verses incite to warfare against the unbelievers. The former are linked to the [chronologically anterior] Meccan phase of the mission when the Muslims were too few and weak to do other than endure insult; the latter are linked to Medina where the Prophet had acquired the numbers and the strength to hit back at his enemies. The discrepancy between the two sets of verses indicates that different situations call for different regulations."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naskh_(tafsir)

Quote from: Abrogation in Islam / Middle East Quarterly
Four verses in the Qu'ran acknowledge or justify abrogation:

    When we cancel a message, or throw it into oblivion, we replace it with one better or one similar. Do you not know that God has power over all things?[10]
    When we replace a message with another, and God knows best what he reveals, they say: You have made it up. Yet, most of them do not know.[11]
    God abrogates or confirms whatsoever he will, for he has with him the Book of the Books.[12]
    If we pleased, we could take away what we have revealed to you. Then you will not find anyone to plead for it with us.[13]
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[9] Bell, Introduction to the Qur'an, pp. 86-107; Arthur Jeffery, Islam: Muhammad and His Religion (Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill, 1958), p. 66.
[10] Qur. 2:106.
[11] Qur. 16:101.
[12] Qur. 13:39.
[13] Qur. 17:86.


David Bukay “Peace or Jihad? Abrogation in Islam,” Middle East Quarterly, VOL XIV, NO. 4, Fall 2007, pp. 3-11
http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam#_ftnref14  
 

Question: if as seems to be the case rejection of abrogation is "outside the mainstream and, perhaps even the religion itself" (Bukay, op cit) the rejection of abrogation no less than the fact you mentioned that Muslim scholars have never been able to agree on which verses were abrogated seems to suggest not the nature of Islam (singular) but Islams (plural). If the mainstream of historical Islam and Islamic jurists is wrong and is unable to present a unified view why should we suppose some fellow on the internet represents True Islam? (perhaps your variety might be an instance of a "prettier face," but if it is a fringe viewpoint at the very least it does not abrogate the problems associated with the doctrine of abrogation for the non-Muslim world in mainstream and historical Islam.

Quote from: Abrogation in Islam / Middle East Quarterly
"Most scholars divide the Qur'an into verses revealed by Muhammad in Mecca when his community of followers was weak and more inclined to compromise, and those revealed in Medina, where Muhammad's strength grew. Classical scholars argued that anyone who studied the Qur'an without having mastered the doctrine of abrogation would be "deficient."[15] Those who do not accept abrogation fall outside the mainstream and, perhaps, even the religion itself. The Ahmadiyah sect, for example, today concentrated in Pakistan, consistently rejects abrogation because it undercuts the notion that the Qur'an is free from errors.[16] Many Muslims consider Ahmadis, who also see their founder as a prophet, to be apostates.
_____________________
[14] John Burton, The Encyclopedia of Islam, vol. 7, s.v. "Naskh," p. 1010.
[15] Abu al-Kasim Hibat-Allah Ibn Salama, An-Nasikh wal-Mansukh (Cairo: Dar al-Ma'arif, 1966), pp. 4-5, 123. On pp. 142-3, he lists the abrogated verses. See also pp. 7, 11, 26-7, 37, 46.
[16] Maulana Muhammad Ali, The Religion of Islam (Lahore: Ahmadiyya Anjuman Isha'at Islam, 2005), p. 32; Ahmad bin Muhammad al-Nahhas, An-Nasikh Wal-Mansukh (Cairo: Maktabat ‘Alam al-Fikr, 1986), pp. 2-3.


David Bukay “Peace or Jihad? Abrogation in Islam,” Middle East Quarterly, VOL XIV, NO. 4, Fall 2007, pp. 3-11
http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam#_ftnref14  

Thanks for your replies; I will ask more on the topic of friendship in a bit, also with attention to the way the issue plays out historiographically and in contemporary Islamic scholarship and culture in addition to individual examples of dissent which however more conciliatory and attractive they indeed may be, do not seem to represent the mainstream thus defined regardless of presentations by e.g. popular apologists.
__________
[1]
(http://i.imgur.com/A8kFI4E.png)

Just off the top of my head, I can think of Muhammad Asad as someone who rejected the theory of abrogation, and his reasoning is quite convincing.  If you look at this scholarly credentials, you'll see that he studied enough to know what he is talking about.

And how would you define the Islamic mainstream?  Do you think that any ordinary believer out on the street in a Muslim country even knows what the theory of abrogation is?  If I asked all the worshipers at my local mosque, all of whom pray 5 times a day, what the theory of abrogation was, they wouldn't even know what I'm talking about.  The books of the jurists was by no means mainstream, and they are, to this day, the domain of Islam's more scholarly class, not lay believers.

According to Hamza Yusuf, there are only 4 verses in the Qur'an supposedly over which there are no differences of opinion regarding abrogration, (I believe it was the verses about alcohol, I'll have to read up on it) - all the others have been up for debate.  The fact that Muslim scholar have been debating this for centuries without much of a consensus shows how problematic the theory is.  Even someone like Ibn Taymiyya presented a more nuanced approach, saying that if the historical circumstances of a certain