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Moderated Forums => Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion => Orthodox-Protestant Discussion => Topic started by: JamesR on August 09, 2012, 12:16:16 AM

Title: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: JamesR on August 09, 2012, 12:16:16 AM
I have a little bit of a religious pet-peeve and I was wondering if anyone here has any thoughts about this topic. How do you feel about Protestants using Orthodox symbols? To be more specific, those who use the Greek 'fish' symbol that the Orthodox used in its early days during persecution. I've noticed a trend among zealous Evangelicals to use this symbol very often as some way to commemorate their 'persecuted ancestors' and I have to say, I find this rather offensive. Evangelicals were not the ones being persecuted when this symbol was used; in fact, they were not even around during the time this symbol came out. Yet, they still wear it as if they had some type of connection with the Church during these early times when clearly they did not. I just find it kind of offensive to see Evangelicals wear one of our symbols that represents our ancestors' persecution as if they were the ones whose ancestors were persecuted. It is like a White person calling his White friends the N-word; a Black person would find it offensive because that White person never understood what it's like to be an N-word yet they still drop it as if they understand entirely or as if it affected them in any negative way. Maybe I'm just being too serious. What are your thoughts about this?
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: neon_knights on August 09, 2012, 12:18:23 AM
The fish is a universally recognized symbol of Christianity as a whole. It isn't associated with Orthodoxy alone.
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: Asteriktos on August 09, 2012, 12:25:36 AM
inb4 schultz
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: Cognomen on August 09, 2012, 12:27:52 AM
My thoughts?  Enough with this repetitive lashing out already; you're embarrassing yourself.
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: Shiny on August 09, 2012, 12:59:05 AM
Just put the evolution Jesus fish on the back of your car. Problem solved.
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on August 09, 2012, 01:12:51 AM
What are you going to do, James, sue the Protestants for copyright infringement?
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: vamrat on August 09, 2012, 01:27:14 AM
Silly protestants stealing our Orthodoxies.  They stole our Cross.  They stole our Bible.  We made that!

Let them just stick with their 95 Thesiseses and pre-destinations.

Copycats.
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: NicholasMyra on August 09, 2012, 01:28:09 AM
You know what other ancient Orthodox symbol they use?

The cross.  ::)
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: JamesR on August 09, 2012, 01:31:32 AM
What are you going to do, James, sue the Protestants for copyright infringement?

I have to admit, that really made me laugh. And I imagine that if this were a possibility, I probably would attempt it...
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: Shiny on August 09, 2012, 01:45:29 AM
You know what other ancient Orthodox symbol they use?

The cross.  ::)

Ah but not the three bar cross!

The one bar cross is a Protestant symbol :police:
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: Asteriktos on August 09, 2012, 01:55:42 AM
You know what other ancient Orthodox symbol they use?

The cross.  ::)

Ah but not the three bar cross!

The one bar cross is a Protestant symbol :police:

This is why I always cross myself with three bars when praying.

1) Cross head to belly
2) Cross right shoulder to left shoulder
3) Cross from lower left stomach to upper right
4) Move hand across throat for finish

(http://i.imgur.com/nGF4w.jpg)
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on August 09, 2012, 02:06:59 AM
You know what other ancient Orthodox symbol they use?

The cross.  ::)

Ah but not the three bar cross!

The one bar cross is a Protestant symbol :police:

This is why I always cross myself with three bars when praying.

1) Cross head to belly
2) Cross right shoulder to left shoulder
3) Cross from lower left stomach to upper right
4) Move hand across throat for finish

(http://i.imgur.com/nGF4w.jpg)
That way you get disemboweled and have your throat slit.
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: Alpo on August 09, 2012, 02:12:54 AM
You know what other ancient Orthodox symbol they use?

The cross.  ::)

Ah but not the three bar cross!

The one bar cross is a Protestant symbol :police:

This is why I always cross myself with three bars when praying.

1) Cross head to belly
2) Cross right shoulder to left shoulder
3) Cross from lower left stomach to upper right
4) Move hand across throat for finish

(http://i.imgur.com/nGF4w.jpg)
That way you get disemboweled and have your throat slit.

That's a proper gesture for those heretical New Riters. :police:
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: LBK on August 09, 2012, 03:38:15 AM
It's hilarious and tragic that many protestant groups which use the fish symbol think venerating icons is idolatry.  ;) :P :laugh:
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: Tallitot on August 09, 2012, 04:14:46 AM
You know what other ancient Orthodox symbol they use?

The cross.  ::)

Ah but not the three bar cross!

The one bar cross is a Protestant symbol :police:

This is why I always cross myself with three bars when praying.

1) Cross head to belly
2) Cross right shoulder to left shoulder
3) Cross from lower left stomach to upper right
4) Move hand across throat for finish

(http://i.imgur.com/nGF4w.jpg)

But do you use 2 or 3 fingers?

Actually such an elaborate sign of the cross exsists to certain extent; in Iberia and Latin America there is tradition of tradition of tracing a small cross on the forehead, one on the chest and one on the lips.
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: Tallitot on August 09, 2012, 04:17:57 AM
Just put the evolution Jesus fish on the back of your car. Problem solved.


Or this one:
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS93Iuk8wMgHxV3Adz-T1nsScZEDzASiY55iJgf5-qF4qtV-RojjnjiQqYQ)
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: alanscott on August 09, 2012, 08:18:47 AM
Hold on a second everybody  ;)…  It is not just the symbol of the fish or the Cross. As vamrat noted; while not a ‘symbol’ I have learned and sincerely accept the Bible itself has come from the Orthodox Church. Perhaps I should stop using that?! What about the divinely inspired word of the Saints and early Church Fathers? Come to think of it does not the Roman Catholic Church, thus the Protestant Churches come from the Orthodox Church?
 
I get to keep the cool ‘WWJD’ wrist band though right?

Peace, Love & Grace!  :)


Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: Kerdy on August 09, 2012, 08:44:37 AM
If the Orthodox Church is the original church, everything Christian across the board was borrowed from it, until new things were created.  Let them.  Then maybe one day someone will ask,
"Hey, where did this come from?" and learn their history, like the Protestant statement of faith is from the Roman Church, which if they knew would turn their stomachs.
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: katherineofdixie on August 09, 2012, 09:26:06 AM
Silly protestants stealing our Orthodoxies.  They stole our Cross.  They stole our Bible.  We made that!

Let them just stick with their 95 Thesiseses and pre-destinations.

Copycats.

I laughed so hard at this I nearly choked.
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: JoeS2 on August 09, 2012, 10:07:37 AM
Just put the evolution Jesus fish on the back of your car. Problem solved.


Or this one:
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS93Iuk8wMgHxV3Adz-T1nsScZEDzASiY55iJgf5-qF4qtV-RojjnjiQqYQ)

Love it.!
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: Peter J on August 09, 2012, 10:20:45 AM
I have a little bit of a religious pet-peeve and I was wondering if anyone here has any thoughts about this topic. How do you feel about Protestants using Orthodox symbols? To be more specific, those who use the Greek 'fish' symbol that the Orthodox used in its early days during persecution.

Hi. I guess you're directing these questions to your fellow Orthodox, but I'd like to chime in 2 little thoughts.

First, protestants borrow a ton of stuff from us Catholics, and we're generally not "supposed" to complain about it. So I guess I'm kinda torn between sympathizing, and saying "Huh?" to your complaints -- especially since you've only actually mentioned one example.

Which brings me to my second thought: I've never thought of the fish as symbolizing Orthodoxy but not Catholicism or protestantism. Do you have any other examples?

I've noticed a trend among zealous Evangelicals to use this symbol very often as some way to commemorate their 'persecuted ancestors' and I have to say, I find this rather offensive. Evangelicals were not the ones being persecuted when this symbol was used; in fact, they were not even around during the time this symbol came out. Yet, they still wear it as if they had some type of connection with the Church during these early times when clearly they did not. I just find it kind of offensive to see Evangelicals wear one of our symbols that represents our ancestors' persecution as if they were the ones whose ancestors were persecuted. It is like a White person calling his White friends the N-word; a Black person would find it offensive because that White person never understood what it's like to be an N-word yet they still drop it as if they understand entirely or as if it affected them in any negative way. Maybe I'm just being too serious.

I think I'd like to think more about those statements before commenting.
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: Sleeper on August 09, 2012, 10:42:03 AM
You know what other ancient Orthodox symbol they use?

The cross.  ::)

Ah but not the three bar cross!

The one bar cross is a Protestant symbol :police:

This is why I always cross myself with three bars when praying.

1) Cross head to belly
2) Cross right shoulder to left shoulder
3) Cross from lower left stomach to upper right
4) Move hand across throat for finish

(http://i.imgur.com/nGF4w.jpg)

But do you use 2 or 3 fingers?

Actually such an elaborate sign of the cross exsists to certain extent; in Iberia and Latin America there is tradition of tradition of tracing a small cross on the forehead, one on the chest and one on the lips.

As do Western Orthodox before the reading of the Gospel. :)
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: Pan Michał on August 09, 2012, 10:45:40 AM
But there are Evangelical/Anglican East Churches, with eastern rites and such.
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: FatherGiryus on August 09, 2012, 10:57:22 AM
What really annoys me are when Orthodox steal (or don't wash off) Protestant stuff.

My pet peeve are convert clergy who still talk with the "preacher's dialect." (/shiver)


I have a little bit of a religious pet-peeve and I was wondering if anyone here has any thoughts about this topic. How do you feel about Protestants using Orthodox symbols? To be more specific, those who use the Greek 'fish' symbol that the Orthodox used in its early days during persecution. I've noticed a trend among zealous Evangelicals to use this symbol very often as some way to commemorate their 'persecuted ancestors' and I have to say, I find this rather offensive. Evangelicals were not the ones being persecuted when this symbol was used; in fact, they were not even around during the time this symbol came out. Yet, they still wear it as if they had some type of connection with the Church during these early times when clearly they did not. I just find it kind of offensive to see Evangelicals wear one of our symbols that represents our ancestors' persecution as if they were the ones whose ancestors were persecuted. It is like a White person calling his White friends the N-word; a Black person would find it offensive because that White person never understood what it's like to be an N-word yet they still drop it as if they understand entirely or as if it affected them in any negative way. Maybe I'm just being too serious. What are your thoughts about this?
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: Schultz on August 09, 2012, 11:02:36 AM
inb4 schultz

LOL

I had a meeting. 
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: kevlev on August 10, 2012, 01:07:33 AM
 ::)

One of my pet peeves is when people wield the Faith to spread their own insolence.
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: neon_knights on August 10, 2012, 01:31:11 AM
One of my pet peeves is the term "pet peeve".
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: alanscott on August 10, 2012, 07:12:57 AM
...Then maybe one day someone will ask,
"Hey, where did this come from?" and learn their history, like the Protestant statement of faith is from the Roman Church, which if they knew would turn their stomachs.

Kerdy, Forgive my ignorance as I am making some attempt to learn more of Church history, Orthodox theology, as well as Wesleyan theology. I am truly unaware of any Protestant statement of faith that is 'all inclusive' nor how it is from the Roman Church. I welcome your insight if you would explain.

Sincerely,

Scott
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: Kerdy on August 10, 2012, 08:08:16 AM
...Then maybe one day someone will ask,
"Hey, where did this come from?" and learn their history, like the Protestant statement of faith is from the Roman Church, which if they knew would turn their stomachs.

Kerdy, Forgive my ignorance as I am making some attempt to learn more of Church history, Orthodox theology, as well as Wesleyan theology. I am truly unaware of any Protestant statement of faith that is 'all inclusive' nor how it is from the Roman Church. I welcome your insight if you would explain.

Sincerely,

Scott
The Nicene Creed, Christian statement of faith, used by most (all???) protestant churches is the same used by the Catholic Church, which they changed from the original the Orthodox Church uses.  This was part of the reason for the Great Schism.  I pointed this out some Baptist friends and they looked confused and horrified.  I don't think they ever put two and two together when they read the creed.  I did, however, discuss this with a Catholic friend and she was very aware of it.  I found the same creed on many Protestant churches denominational home pages while I was doing my research prior to conversion.  I was, and still am, overwhelmed at the amount of information I did not know existed as a Baptist.
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: scamandrius on August 10, 2012, 10:48:35 AM
What are you going to do, James, sue the Protestants for copyright infringement?

I have to admit, that really made me laugh. And I imagine that if this were a possibility, I probably would attempt it...

And if you did attempt such a frivolous thing, you would only confirm what most of us already know--that you are spiteful and vindictive.

That said, there are a lot of Protestant groups, especially those evangelizing in traditionally Orthodox countries who use Orthodox vestments, art, chants, etc. to get their message across.  Sadly, it seems to be working.  In Russia, the Baptists have made significant gains by confusing people with their Orthodox appearances.

I will also confess that I do not understand why those who decry icons, readily use them for teaching purposes.  I think they're looking at them more as art and not as devotional objects.  Still, it does discomfort me, but I don't go around forcing them to quit what they're doing.  What needs to be done, especially in those traditionally Orthodox countries, is for the Church to really focus on re evangelizing the masses.  I think, in a lot of ways, they have really dropped the ball on that.
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: scamandrius on August 10, 2012, 10:50:23 AM

The Nicene Creed, Christian statement of faith, used by most (all???) protestant churches is the same used by the Catholic Church, which they changed from the original the Orthodox Church uses.  This was part of the reason for the Great Schism.  I pointed this out some Baptist friend sand they looked confused and horrified.  I don't think they ever put two and two together when they read the creed.  I did, however, discuss this with a Catholic friend and she was very aware of it.  I found the same creed on many Protestant churches denominational home pages while I was doing my research prior to conversion.  I was, and still am, overwhelmed at the amount of information I did not know existed as a Baptist.

Baptists use the Nicene reed here in the states?  I have never ever heard of the Baptists ever reciting the Creed or knowing it existed.  My fellow cantor and former Baptist once told me that such things like the Creed would be considered "vain repetitions." 
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: Kerdy on August 10, 2012, 11:13:39 AM

The Nicene Creed, Christian statement of faith, used by most (all???) protestant churches is the same used by the Catholic Church, which they changed from the original the Orthodox Church uses.  This was part of the reason for the Great Schism.  I pointed this out some Baptist friend sand they looked confused and horrified.  I don't think they ever put two and two together when they read the creed.  I did, however, discuss this with a Catholic friend and she was very aware of it.  I found the same creed on many Protestant churches denominational home pages while I was doing my research prior to conversion.  I was, and still am, overwhelmed at the amount of information I did not know existed as a Baptist.

Baptists use the Nicene reed here in the states?  I have never ever heard of the Baptists ever reciting the Creed or knowing it existed.  My fellow cantor and former Baptist once told me that such things like the Creed would be considered "vain repetitions."  
The last I looked, the SBC had it on their webpage.
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: Agabus on August 10, 2012, 11:26:58 AM

The Nicene Creed, Christian statement of faith, used by most (all???) protestant churches is the same used by the Catholic Church, which they changed from the original the Orthodox Church uses.  This was part of the reason for the Great Schism.  I pointed this out some Baptist friend sand they looked confused and horrified.  I don't think they ever put two and two together when they read the creed.  I did, however, discuss this with a Catholic friend and she was very aware of it.  I found the same creed on many Protestant churches denominational home pages while I was doing my research prior to conversion.  I was, and still am, overwhelmed at the amount of information I did not know existed as a Baptist.

Baptists use the Nicene reed here in the states?  I have never ever heard of the Baptists ever reciting the Creed or knowing it existed.  My fellow cantor and former Baptist once told me that such things like the Creed would be considered "vain repetitions." 
I know of several liturgical Baptist churches that use it.
That said, there are a lot of Protestant groups, especially those evangelizing in traditionally Orthodox countries who use Orthodox vestments, art, chants, etc. to get their message across.  Sadly, it seems to be working.  In Russia, the Baptists have made significant gains by confusing people with their Orthodox appearances.

Yeah, I have seen pictures of Georgian Baptists who -- had their icons not looked a little weird -- I would not have known the difference.

Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: Timon on August 10, 2012, 11:31:53 AM
I think there are much bigger things to be concerned with other than what symbols protestants are using.  One thing I love about Orthodoxy is that we are taught to pray and worry about our own faith, not everyone elses.  Honestly, who cares if they put fish on their cars and stuff?
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: Peter J on August 10, 2012, 11:36:11 AM
That said, there are a lot of Protestant groups, especially those evangelizing in traditionally Orthodox countries who use Orthodox vestments, art, chants, etc. to get their message across.  Sadly, it seems to be working.  In Russia, the Baptists have made significant gains by confusing people with their Orthodox appearances.

Well said. I thought the example in the OP -- the complaint that protestants use the fish symbol (I didn't have the heart to tell James that we Catholics use it too ;)) -- was pretty wierd; but that's not to say that there cannot also be legitimate complaints about protestants imitating the Orthodox.

I will also confess that I do not understand why those who decry icons, readily use them for teaching purposes.  I think they're looking at them more as art and not as devotional objects.  

I would have to wonder if there isn't a bit of a "bait and switch" going on there. You know, a don't-tell-them-how-we-really-feel-about-icons-until-they're-protestant.
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: Veniamin on August 10, 2012, 12:01:09 PM
I object to the name Evangelical since it comes from a Greek word.  Lutheran's 100% Protestant, though. :P
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: Pan Michał on August 10, 2012, 12:07:04 PM
I object to the name Evangelical since it comes from a Greek word.  Lutheran's 100% Protestant, though. :P

A "Protestant" also comes from a Greek word ;)
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: orthonorm on August 10, 2012, 12:27:10 PM
You know what other ancient Orthodox symbol they use?

The cross.  ::)

Ah but not the three bar cross!

The one bar cross is a Protestant symbol :police:

This is why I always cross myself with three bars when praying.

1) Cross head to belly
2) Cross right shoulder to left shoulder
3) Cross from lower left stomach to upper right
4) Move hand across throat for finish

(http://i.imgur.com/nGF4w.jpg)

Awesome!

At step four, many people think I am threatening them with a Colombian Necktie.
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: Kerdy on August 10, 2012, 12:50:05 PM

The Nicene Creed, Christian statement of faith, used by most (all???) protestant churches is the same used by the Catholic Church, which they changed from the original the Orthodox Church uses.  This was part of the reason for the Great Schism.  I pointed this out some Baptist friend sand they looked confused and horrified.  I don't think they ever put two and two together when they read the creed.  I did, however, discuss this with a Catholic friend and she was very aware of it.  I found the same creed on many Protestant churches denominational home pages while I was doing my research prior to conversion.  I was, and still am, overwhelmed at the amount of information I did not know existed as a Baptist.

Baptists use the Nicene reed here in the states?  I have never ever heard of the Baptists ever reciting the Creed or knowing it existed.  My fellow cantor and former Baptist once told me that such things like the Creed would be considered "vain repetitions."  
The last I looked, the SBC had it on their webpage.
I just checked again but didn't find it.  I also checked my old.church and it is no longer there either.  They must have changed it since I last looked about three years ago.
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: alanscott on August 10, 2012, 04:36:55 PM
...Then maybe one day someone will ask,
"Hey, where did this come from?" and learn their history, like the Protestant statement of faith is from the Roman Church, which if they knew would turn their stomachs.

Kerdy, Forgive my ignorance as I am making some attempt to learn more of Church history, Orthodox theology, as well as Wesleyan theology. I am truly unaware of any Protestant statement of faith that is 'all inclusive' nor how it is from the Roman Church. I welcome your insight if you would explain.

Sincerely,

Scott
The Nicene Creed, Christian statement of faith, used by most (all???) protestant churches is the same used by the Catholic Church, which they changed from the original the Orthodox Church uses.  This was part of the reason for the Great Schism.  I pointed this out some Baptist friends and they looked confused and horrified.  I don't think they ever put two and two together when they read the creed.  I did, however, discuss this with a Catholic friend and she was very aware of it.  I found the same creed on many Protestant churches denominational home pages while I was doing my research prior to conversion.  I was, and still am, overwhelmed at the amount of information I did not know existed as a Baptist.

First and foremost thank you Kerdy! Indeed you are furthering my knowledge. (Not nessesarily a difficult task. lol)

I can’t really comment on other denominations such as Baptist. My limited understanding is even within their denomination their doctrines and ‘statements of faith’ may vary. I am aware some Protestants accept the Nicene Creed, others only the Apostle’s Creed, and there may be some that accept neither (?).  I did not realize that the Orthodox only accept the Nicene Creed of Nicea in 325.
 
The Church I pray at does not recite either the Apostle Creed or the Nicene Creed during service but fully accepts both as statements of our faith. I did not realize you were referring to that when mentioning a Protestant ‘statement of faith’ as again, I thought Orthodox and Catholic also accepted the revision of 381. I had to do a little research as I was not very knowledgeable to the difference between the two versions. We are of Wesleyan theology and in fact accept the Constantinople of 381 version.  At this point I can’t say I’m having the adverse reaction you mentioned but perhaps after I research and learn more maybe?   ;)

My knowledge of the schism between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholic (east-west) is weak as is my knowlage of the Ecumenical Councils in general. I don’t want to take JamesR’s post too far off topic so I’ll conclude by thanking you again as this is very good for my growth.

God Bless,

Scott
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: sheenj on August 10, 2012, 04:40:11 PM
...Then maybe one day someone will ask,
"Hey, where did this come from?" and learn their history, like the Protestant statement of faith is from the Roman Church, which if they knew would turn their stomachs.

Kerdy, Forgive my ignorance as I am making some attempt to learn more of Church history, Orthodox theology, as well as Wesleyan theology. I am truly unaware of any Protestant statement of faith that is 'all inclusive' nor how it is from the Roman Church. I welcome your insight if you would explain.

Sincerely,

Scott
The Nicene Creed, Christian statement of faith, used by most (all???) protestant churches is the same used by the Catholic Church, which they changed from the original the Orthodox Church uses.  This was part of the reason for the Great Schism.  I pointed this out some Baptist friends and they looked confused and horrified.  I don't think they ever put two and two together when they read the creed.  I did, however, discuss this with a Catholic friend and she was very aware of it.  I found the same creed on many Protestant churches denominational home pages while I was doing my research prior to conversion.  I was, and still am, overwhelmed at the amount of information I did not know existed as a Baptist.

I did not realize that the Orthodox only accept the Nicene Creed of Nicea in 325.


We also accept the revisions of Constantinople 381
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: alanscott on August 10, 2012, 04:42:27 PM
...Then maybe one day someone will ask,
"Hey, where did this come from?" and learn their history, like the Protestant statement of faith is from the Roman Church, which if they knew would turn their stomachs.
I did not realize that the Orthodox only accept the Nicene Creed of Nicea in 325.
 

We also accept the revisions of Constantinople 381.

O.K. now I'm confused  ???
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: Pan Michał on August 10, 2012, 04:52:25 PM
O.K. now I'm confused  ???

The revisions of Constantinople include the teachings about The Holy Spirit, and His relation to the Holy Trinity and how He "interracts" with us. They were included because at that time the Orthodoxy was dogmatically confronted with Arianism. Thus we accept it as our Creed.
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: Peter J on August 10, 2012, 05:41:53 PM
We also accept the revisions of Constantinople 381

We Catholics also accept the Creed of 381 (even if it may not always seem like we accept it).
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: alanscott on August 10, 2012, 05:47:09 PM
O.K. now I'm confused  ???

The revisions of Constantinople include the teachings about The Holy Spirit, and His relation to the Holy Trinity and how He "interracts" with us. They were included because at that time the Orthodoxy was dogmatically confronted with Arianism. Thus we accept it as our Creed.
Thank You I understand that but...
[/quote]
The Nicene Creed, Christian statement of faith, used by most (all???) protestant churches is the same used by the Catholic Church, which they changed from the original the Orthodox Church uses.  This was part of the reason for the Great Schism.  I pointed this out some Baptist friends and they looked confused and horrified.  I don't think they ever put two and two together when they read the creed.  I did, however, discuss this with a Catholic friend and she was very aware of it.  I found the same creed on many Protestant churches denominational home pages while I was doing my research prior to conversion.  I was, and still am, overwhelmed at the amount of information I did not know existed as a Baptist.
[/quote]

... now I'm confused to Kerdy's reply. Emphasis added.
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: Asteriktos on August 10, 2012, 05:54:31 PM
I'm not sure I understand where the confusion is, but fwiw, so far as I remember how things went...

In 325 a creed (based on earlier baptismal creeds) was adopted at Nicea, guarding the consubstantiality of Jesus with the Father and condemning those who say that Jesus was created or that there was a time when he did not exist. In 381 at Constantinople certain statements added to the creed, including some that defend the divinity of the Holy Spirit. Several centuries later the filioque became an issue on a very local level in the west (Spain?). By the 9th century the filioque issue was known about by both eastern and western Church leaders, and easterners like St. Photius wrote against it, but the issue was still not something that caused a lasting division. By the 11th century things had progressed and Rome officially accepted the filioque as part of the creed. Today most Catholics and Protestants, if they use it at all, use a version of the creed which has the filioque in it, while the Orthodox and some others do not.
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: Pan Michał on August 10, 2012, 05:59:59 PM
Thank You I understand that but...
" The Nicene Creed, Christian statement of faith, used by most (all???) protestant churches is the same used by the Catholic Church, which they changed from the original the Orthodox Church uses.  This was part of the reason for the Great Schism.  I pointed this out some Baptist friends and they looked confused and horrified.  I don't think they ever put two and two together when they read the creed.  I did, however, discuss this with a Catholic friend and she was very aware of it.  I found the same creed on many Protestant churches denominational home pages while I was doing my research prior to conversion.  I was, and still am, overwhelmed at the amount of information I did not know existed as a Baptist."

... now I'm confused to Kerdy's reply. Emphasis added.


I understand. Alas I have no knowledge about protestantism, just catholic/orthodox, so I'm afraid I can't go any further in a specific discussion.

EDITED - for clarity I've added quotation marks instead of quote inside of quote.
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: orthonorm on August 10, 2012, 06:04:59 PM
I'm not sure I understand where the confusion is, but fwiw, so far as I remember how things went...

In 325 a creed (based on earlier baptismal creeds) was adopted at Nicea, guarding the consubstantiality of Jesus with the Father and condemning those who say that Jesus was created or that there was a time when he did not exist. In 381 at Constantinople certain statements added to the creed, including some that defend the divinity of the Holy Spirit. Several centuries later the filioque became an issue on a very local level in the west (Spain?). By the 9th century the filioque issue was known about by both eastern and western Church leaders, and easterners like St. Photius wrote against it, but the issue was still not something that caused a lasting division. By the 11th century things had progressed and Rome officially accepted the filioque as part of the creed. Today most Catholics and Protestants, if they use it at all, use a version of the creed which has the filioque in it, while the Orthodox and some others do not.

You can make anything boring including the exciting world of creed wars.
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: Asteriktos on August 10, 2012, 06:07:08 PM
I'm not sure I understand where the confusion is, but fwiw, so far as I remember how things went...

In 325 a creed (based on earlier baptismal creeds) was adopted at Nicea, guarding the consubstantiality of Jesus with the Father and condemning those who say that Jesus was created or that there was a time when he did not exist. In 381 at Constantinople certain statements added to the creed, including some that defend the divinity of the Holy Spirit. Several centuries later the filioque became an issue on a very local level in the west (Spain?). By the 9th century the filioque issue was known about by both eastern and western Church leaders, and easterners like St. Photius wrote against it, but the issue was still not something that caused a lasting division. By the 11th century things had progressed and Rome officially accepted the filioque as part of the creed. Today most Catholics and Protestants, if they use it at all, use a version of the creed which has the filioque in it, while the Orthodox and some others do not.

You can make anything boring including the exciting world of creed wars.

I aspire to the dryness of a modern ecclesiastical historian and the blandness and uncreativity of a Byzantine theologian!  ;D
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: alanscott on August 10, 2012, 06:08:01 PM
I'm not sure I understand where the confusion is, but fwiw, so far as I remember how things went...

In 325 a creed (based on earlier baptismal creeds) was adopted at Nicea, guarding the consubstantiality of Jesus with the Father and condemning those who say that Jesus was created or that there was a time when he did not exist. In 381 at Constantinople certain statements added to the creed, including some that defend the divinity of the Holy Spirit. Several centuries later the filioque became an issue on a very local level in the west (Spain?). By the 9th century the filioque issue was known about by both eastern and western Church leaders, and easterners like St. Photius wrote against it, but the issue was still not something that caused a lasting division. By the 11th century things had progressed and Rome officially accepted the filioque as part of the creed. Today most Catholics and Protestants, if they use it at all, use a version of the creed which has the filioque in it, while the Orthodox and some others do not.

Oh, I think that's it. I won't assume on Kerdy's behalf but guessing he was referring to the filioque.

Thank You! (For your help as well Pan Michal)
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: rakovsky on August 10, 2012, 06:12:13 PM
This is why I always cross myself with three bars when praying.

1) Cross head to belly
2) Cross right shoulder to left shoulder
3) Cross from lower left stomach to upper right
4) Move hand across throat for finish

(http://i.imgur.com/nGF4w.jpg)
That way you get disemboweled and have your throat slit.
Did you know that making those kinds of signs over yourself is part of Mas.inititian for revealing secrets?

Anyway, where does this strange drawing come from?
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: Kerdy on August 10, 2012, 06:16:01 PM
I'm not sure I understand where the confusion is, but fwiw, so far as I remember how things went...

In 325 a creed (based on earlier baptismal creeds) was adopted at Nicea, guarding the consubstantiality of Jesus with the Father and condemning those who say that Jesus was created or that there was a time when he did not exist. In 381 at Constantinople certain statements added to the creed, including some that defend the divinity of the Holy Spirit. Several centuries later the filioque became an issue on a very local level in the west (Spain?). By the 9th century the filioque issue was known about by both eastern and western Church leaders, and easterners like St. Photius wrote against it, but the issue was still not something that caused a lasting division. By the 11th century things had progressed and Rome officially accepted the filioque as part of the creed. Today most Catholics and Protestants, if they use it at all, use a version of the creed which has the filioque in it, while the Orthodox and some others do not.

Oh, I think that's it. I won't assume on Kerdy's behalf but guessing he was referring to the filioque.

Thank You! (For your help as well Pan Michal)

I was.  Sorry for the confusion
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: rakovsky on August 10, 2012, 06:16:19 PM
Actually such an elaborate sign of the cross exsists to certain extent; in Iberia and Latin America there is tradition of tradition of tracing a small cross on the forehead, one on the chest and one on the lips.
Isn't it standard in R.Catholic churches to rub one's thumb in a fist over the forehead and lips at one point in the R.C. Mass?
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: orthonorm on August 10, 2012, 06:18:19 PM
This is why I always cross myself with three bars when praying.

1) Cross head to belly
2) Cross right shoulder to left shoulder
3) Cross from lower left stomach to upper right
4) Move hand across throat for finish

(http://i.imgur.com/nGF4w.jpg)
That way you get disemboweled and have your throat slit.
Did you know that making those kinds of signs over yourself is part of Mas.inititian for revealing secrets?

Anyway, where does this strange drawing come from?

I bet Mr. * did it himself.

He is the hot thing in outsider digital art.
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: Asteriktos on August 10, 2012, 06:39:39 PM
I bet Mr. * did it himself.

He is the hot thing in outsider digital art.

Indeed, I made it in a basic MS paint program. None of that rich-kid paintshop pro for me! However, I used the curving technique rather than straight lines. Straight lines are so scholastic and western! In Orthodoxy we move and bend and curve!
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: Pan Michał on August 10, 2012, 06:42:54 PM
Indeed, I made it in a basic MS paint program. None of that rich-kid paintshop pro for me! However, I used the curving technique rather than straight lines. Straight lines are so scholastic and western! In Orthodoxy we move and bend and curve!

You should be careful with those, as MS stands for "Mormons & Scientology" ;)
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: Peter J on August 10, 2012, 07:14:36 PM
Actually such an elaborate sign of the cross exsists to certain extent; in Iberia and Latin America there is tradition of tradition of tracing a small cross on the forehead, one on the chest and one on the lips.
Isn't it standard in R.Catholic churches to rub one's thumb in a fist over the forehead and lips at one point in the R.C. Mass?

Yes, but more like what Tallitot said: forehead, lips, heart.
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: Peter J on August 10, 2012, 07:17:37 PM
O.K. now I'm confused  ???
The revisions of Constantinople include the teachings about The Holy Spirit, and His relation to the Holy Trinity and how He "interracts" with us. They were included because at that time the Orthodoxy was dogmatically confronted with Arianism. Thus we accept it as our Creed.
Thank You I understand that but...
Quote
The Nicene Creed, Christian statement of faith, used by most (all???) protestant churches is the same used by the Catholic Church, which they changed from the original the Orthodox Church uses.  This was part of the reason for the Great Schism.  I pointed this out some Baptist friends and they looked confused and horrified.  I don't think they ever put two and two together when they read the creed.  I did, however, discuss this with a Catholic friend and she was very aware of it.  I found the same creed on many Protestant churches denominational home pages while I was doing my research prior to conversion.  I was, and still am, overwhelmed at the amount of information I did not know existed as a Baptist.

... now I'm confused to Kerdy's reply. Emphasis added.

You probably figured this out already (I was eating supper while the last several posts were posted) but when we say "Nicene Creed", we almost always mean either the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed or the Nicene-Constantinopolitan-Creed-with-filioque-added.
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: Nicene on August 11, 2012, 06:20:41 AM
I would prefer if they started using orthodox symbols, IE the cross, IE the Icons, IE anything which we call holy as it means a step in the right direction and they aren't just heading deeper and deeper into Iconoclasm or something worse.
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: alanscott on August 11, 2012, 10:15:39 AM

I was.  Sorry for the confusion
No worries! Learning (for me anyway) often comes out of such confusion. Not you, but my ignorance caused the confusion. You have simply helped suggest the next door of study I should enter. Thank You and God bless!
Quote

You probably figured this out already (I was eating supper while the last several posts were posted) but when we say "Nicene Creed", we almost always mean either the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed or the Nicene-Constantinopolitan-Creed-with-filioque-added.
Yea, it sometimes takes me a while but I finally caught on!  :) 

Thanks Peter!
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: Pan Michał on August 12, 2012, 06:32:44 AM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Ukrlc_logo.svg)
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: sprtslvr1973 on August 12, 2012, 06:14:43 PM
I have a little bit of a religious pet-peeve and I was wondering if anyone here has any thoughts about this topic. How do you feel about Protestants using Orthodox symbols? To be more specific, those who use the Greek 'fish' symbol that the Orthodox used in its early days during persecution. I've noticed a trend among zealous Evangelicals to use this symbol very often as some way to commemorate their 'persecuted ancestors' and I have to say, I find this rather offensive. Evangelicals were not the ones being persecuted when this symbol was used; in fact, they were not even around during the time this symbol came out. Yet, they still wear it as if they had some type of connection with the Church during these early times when clearly they did not. I just find it kind of offensive to see Evangelicals wear one of our symbols that represents our ancestors' persecution as if they were the ones whose ancestors were persecuted. It is like a White person calling his White friends the N-word; a Black person would find it offensive because that White person never understood what it's like to be an N-word yet they still drop it as if they understand entirely or as if it affected them in any negative way. Maybe I'm just being too serious. What are your thoughts about this?

Whether the Early Church would be more resembled by modern Orthodoxy or Evangelicalism is not really that important in this case. Just as all trace races and nations are traced to Adam and Noah, so all Christians trace their roots to the Early Church. Let 'em have it
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: sprtslvr1973 on August 12, 2012, 06:19:15 PM
You know what other ancient Orthodox symbol they use?

The cross.  ::)

Ah but not the three bar cross!

The one bar cross is a Protestant symbol :police:

Same old Protestants always throwing out what they don't like. Anything for a laugh!
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: kevlev on August 12, 2012, 07:25:41 PM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Ukrlc_logo.svg)

Byzantine Rite Lutheranism?
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: neon_knights on August 12, 2012, 07:42:13 PM
Byzantine Rite Lutheranism?

Yes sir. It's pretty common in Ukraine I believe
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: kevlev on August 12, 2012, 07:49:14 PM
Byzantine Rite Lutheranism?

Yes sir. It's pretty common in Ukraine I believe

Interesting.
I had heard of it before, but information on its history and development appears to be rather scant. Does anyone know anything about BRL, aside from what the wikipedia page provides us with?
Title: Re: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?
Post by: scamandrius on August 12, 2012, 07:57:06 PM
Byzantine Rite Lutheranism?

Yes sir. It's pretty common in Ukraine I believe

Interesting.
I had heard of it before, but information on its history and development appears to be rather scant. Does anyone know anything about BRL, aside from what the wikipedia page provides us with?

The one group was Byzantine Rite Catholics but in the 1920s they were being forced to adopt Latinizations.  They did not want to join the Moscow Patriarchate (because of the Revolution) and so they became Byzantine Rite Lutherans using a modified form of the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom while adding things like a confession of sins at the beginning of the Liturgy, getting rid of the megalynarion and truncating the canon.  Their singing is still in the tradition of the Ukrainian Orthodox Churches which is very nice.