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Moderated Forums => Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion => Orthodox-Catholic Discussion => Topic started by: BayStater123 on August 05, 2012, 08:36:00 PM

Title: Roman Catholic miracles such as Fatima or Marian apparitions
Post by: BayStater123 on August 05, 2012, 08:36:00 PM
Do you believe that some grace does exist within Roman Catholicism and that our miracles are true?
Title: Re: Roman Catholic miracles such as Fatima or Marian apparitions
Post by: ialmisry on August 05, 2012, 08:38:04 PM
Do you believe that some grace does exist within Roman Catholicism and that our miracles are true?
Yes and no.
Title: Re: Roman Catholic miracles such as Fatima or Marian apparitions
Post by: Asteriktos on August 05, 2012, 08:44:01 PM
Yes I believe that there is the grace of God working in Roman Catholicism. I don't know if there is sacramental grace. And yes I believe that miracles are performed by God in Roman Catholicism. Just the opinions of one half-lapsed layman.
Title: Re: Roman Catholic miracles such as Fatima or Marian apparitions
Post by: Asteriktos on August 05, 2012, 08:50:25 PM
Btw, welcome to the forum :)
Title: Re: Roman Catholic miracles such as Fatima or Marian apparitions
Post by: BayStater123 on August 05, 2012, 09:02:05 PM
Thank you.   ;D
Title: Re: Roman Catholic miracles such as Fatima or Marian apparitions
Post by: Agabus on August 05, 2012, 09:13:35 PM
I don't know about sacramental grace. Above my paygrade, as they say.

I believe some miracles — for example, Guadeloupe — are true, with God using what was available to a given people at that time to save them out of paganism. This opinion is not strictly limited to Catholicism.
Title: Re: Roman Catholic miracles such as Fatima or Marian apparitions
Post by: J Michael on August 06, 2012, 09:28:10 AM
If I didn't believe that grace exists within the Catholic Church, I wouldn't be Catholic.

Miracles?  Some "miracles" are and some are not--miracles.

Why do you ask?

And, welcome to the forum and the fray  ;)!
Title: Re: Roman Catholic miracles such as Fatima or Marian apparitions
Post by: Pan Michał on August 06, 2012, 09:38:21 AM
Hi and welcome from a newbie too!

I am very sceptical when it comes to political revelations, such as Fatima, no matter catholic or not.

Mary saying about the ultimate Wrath of God? God, anger? Do we believe in the same God? Mary saing she has managed to hold down God's Wrath to give a chance for Russia to redeem? God, holded down? Do we really believe in the same God? Mary scaring everyone with God's Anger? Mary, scarying? Do we really believe in the same Mary?

I'm not talking about the Catholic faith, but about such revelations.
Title: Re: Roman Catholic miracles such as Fatima or Marian apparitions
Post by: J Michael on August 06, 2012, 09:57:25 AM
Hi and welcome from a newbie too!

I am very sceptical when it comes to political revelations, such as Fatima, no matter catholic or not.

Mary saying about the ultimate Wrath of God? God, anger? Do we believe in the same God? Mary saing she has managed to hold down God's Wrath to give a chance for Russia to redeem? God, holded down? Do we really believe in the same God? Mary scaring everyone with God's Anger? Mary, scarying? Do we really believe in the same Mary?

I'm not talking about the Catholic faith, but about such revelations.

Uh oh...this isn't going to turn into one of "those" threads, is it  :o ;D?  Or a Bible-study thread?
Title: Re: Roman Catholic miracles such as Fatima or Marian apparitions
Post by: Pan Michał on August 06, 2012, 10:04:47 AM
Uh oh...this isn't going to turn into one of "those" threads, is it  :o ;D?  Or a Bible-study thread?

If I've trolled too much, then I'll get out of this thread and watch everybody kill and get killed ;)

To answer the second part of the original posters' question - we do not know. This ofcourse does not mean that we may not believe that there is Grace in the RC.

As for the miracles - this I don't know.
Title: Re: Roman Catholic miracles such as Fatima or Marian apparitions
Post by: podkarpatska on August 06, 2012, 10:07:52 AM
Hi and welcome from a newbie too!

I am very sceptical when it comes to political revelations, such as Fatima, no matter catholic or not.

Mary saying about the ultimate Wrath of God? God, anger? Do we believe in the same God? Mary saing she has managed to hold down God's Wrath to give a chance for Russia to redeem? God, holded down? Do we really believe in the same God? Mary scaring everyone with God's Anger? Mary, scarying? Do we really believe in the same Mary?

I'm not talking about the Catholic faith, but about such revelations.

Agreed. We have similar political 'revelations' taken to heart by some Orthodox and I feel the same way about those. Frankly, any 'revelation', it seems to me, has to be void of our contemporary human biases, passions or ignorance in order to even be considered with any seriousness. The turmoil of 1917 across Europe and the general level of fear at that time probably had a lot to do with the perception of the 'message' of Fatima and its exploitation, hence the problem.
Title: Re: Roman Catholic miracles such as Fatima or Marian apparitions
Post by: Dominika on August 06, 2012, 10:27:39 AM
I was some time Roman Catholic and I can say I've experienced some grace (mainly due to the Sacraments), but there was a lack of the fullness and purity of the faith. As one of my Orthodox friends said "Orthodoxy is the best way to the salvation. Catholics can achieve it, but it is harder - the way for them is more tortuous".  

As for these miracles: some of them are strange and not always in harmony of the Orthodox teaching. Probably I have similar opinion to Agabus
Title: Re: Roman Catholic miracles such as Fatima or Marian apparitions
Post by: Pan Michał on August 06, 2012, 10:35:36 AM
As one of my Orthodox firends said "Orthodoxy is the best way to the salvation. Catholics can achieve it, but it is harder - the way for them is more tortuous".  

As my priest once told me, "I don't know whether or not you can be saved there, I know I can be saved here".

Or as st. John wrote, "Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me."
Title: Re: Roman Catholic miracles such as Fatima or Marian apparitions
Post by: Severian on August 06, 2012, 04:03:05 PM
I personally, as an OO, entertain the idea that *some* grace is present in Roman Catholicism. I cross myself whenever I pass an RC parish out of veneration. But, the difference between the Orthodox Eucharist and an RC Eucharist to me is, to use the words of Isa Almisry, "I THINK that the Vatican has a 'valid' Eucharist. I KNOW that the Orthodox have the Eucharist."
Title: Re: Roman Catholic miracles such as Fatima or Marian apparitions
Post by: Wilma on December 13, 2012, 04:19:50 PM
"I THINK that the Vatican has a 'valid' Eucharist. I KNOW that the Orthodox have the Eucharist."

That's exactly why I converted to Eastern Orthodoxy from Roman Catholicism. With the RCC I think some things came directly from God, with EO I KNOW everything comes from Him.
Title: Re: Roman Catholic miracles such as Fatima or Marian apparitions
Post by: Eastern Mind on December 13, 2012, 06:49:42 PM
Do you believe that some grace does exist within Roman Catholicism and that our miracles are true?

Yes, somewhat. I don't really believe in Fatima, though.
Title: Re: Roman Catholic miracles such as Fatima or Marian apparitions
Post by: Andrew21091 on December 13, 2012, 08:26:56 PM
Do you believe that some grace does exist within Roman Catholicism and that our miracles are true?

Yes. I also believe that the Roman Catholic Church has sacramental grace as well.
Title: Re: Roman Catholic miracles such as Fatima or Marian apparitions
Post by: Nephi on December 13, 2012, 08:27:30 PM
Do you believe that some grace does exist within Roman Catholicism and that our miracles are true?
Grace to some unknowable extent - yes.

Miracles - varies.

For example, I think it's hard to deny that Fatima was a real supernatural event, but from an Orthodox view there's no way to accept it as anything but either demonic or greatly altered after-the-fact by the seers (e.g. the dialogue of the apparition).
Title: Re: Roman Catholic miracles such as Fatima or Marian apparitions
Post by: ServusDomini on January 06, 2013, 06:09:45 PM
Personally (and this is just me), I've always had trouble believing several of the apparitions in the RCC. My biggest one was St. Faustina - and this started when I was still Roman Catholic. Jesus just sounded so lofty and unlike himself.
Title: Re: Roman Catholic miracles such as Fatima or Marian apparitions
Post by: Eastern Mind on January 06, 2013, 06:35:12 PM
Well, I do like Guadalupe, but Fatima and Lourdes I have always had issues with. Although, I find Bernadette of Lourdes very charming.
Title: Re: Roman Catholic miracles such as Fatima or Marian apparitions
Post by: theistgal on January 06, 2013, 07:01:19 PM
Well, I do like Guadalupe, but Fatima and Lourdes I have always had issues with. Although, I find Bernadette of Lourdes very charming.

Yes, the real Bernadette (not the Hollywood version) seems to have been a very devout young woman who suffered great pain without complaint. It is quite possible to admire her without necessarily believing that she really saw the Theotokos. (Though I think she did.  :) )