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Moderated Forums => Liturgy => Topic started by: MontChevalier on July 23, 2012, 01:32:01 AM

Title: Differences in Liturgy
Post by: MontChevalier on July 23, 2012, 01:32:01 AM
So what are some differences between all the different kinds of liturgies?

Mostly in general.

-Mont
Title: Re: Differences in Liturgy
Post by: Benjamin the Red on July 23, 2012, 03:06:16 AM
Do you mean across the different rites (e.g. Latin, Gallican, Sarum, Byzantine, Syriac, Ambrosian, Coptic, Armenian, Mozarabic)?

I ask because, I don't know about the Latin Mass, but even within the Byzantine tradition, there are local differences in tradition (such as between the Slavs and the Greeks).
Title: Re: Differences in Liturgy
Post by: MontChevalier on July 23, 2012, 03:14:44 AM
Do you mean across the different rites (e.g. Latin, Gallican, Sarum, Byzantine, Syriac, Ambrosian, Coptic, Armenian, Mozarabic)?

I ask because, I don't know about the Latin Mass, but even within the Byzantine tradition, there are local differences in tradition (such as between the Slavs and the Greeks).

Yes. Exactly. According to the Orthodox Traditions.
Title: Re: Differences in Liturgy
Post by: mike on July 23, 2012, 04:54:54 AM
Greeks use 1 prosphora while Russians - 5. Greeks have flat-back phelonions while Russians - high-back phelonions. Greek threw away the litany for catechumen while Russians didn't.
Title: Re: Differences in Liturgy
Post by: MontChevalier on July 23, 2012, 04:59:26 AM
Greeks use 1 prosphora while Russians - 5. Greeks have flat-back phelonions while Russians - high-back phelonions. Greek threw away the litany for catechumen while Russians didn't.

What about the Armenians? The Coptics? The Serbians? The Ukrainians? The Bulgarians?
Title: Re: Differences in Liturgy
Post by: LBK on July 23, 2012, 05:02:50 AM
Quote
Greek threw away the litany for catechumen while Russians didn't.

Not quite. Most, if not all, of the twenty-odd Greek parishes in the city where I live have reinstated the Litany for the Catechumens. It started happening about 15 years ago.
Title: Re: Differences in Liturgy
Post by: mike on July 23, 2012, 05:08:12 AM
Greeks use 1 prosphora while Russians - 5. Greeks have flat-back phelonions while Russians - high-back phelonions. Greek threw away the litany for catechumen while Russians didn't.

What about the Armenians? The Coptics? The Serbians? The Ukrainians? The Bulgarians?

Oh... I suppose describing differences between various Eastern and Oriental rites and their usage would be longer than Harry Potter.
Title: Re: Differences in Liturgy
Post by: MontChevalier on July 23, 2012, 05:17:24 AM
Greeks use 1 prosphora while Russians - 5. Greeks have flat-back phelonions while Russians - high-back phelonions. Greek threw away the litany for catechumen while Russians didn't.

What about the Armenians? The Coptics? The Serbians? The Ukrainians? The Bulgarians?

Oh... I suppose describing differences between various Eastern and Oriental rites and their usage would be longer than Harry Potter.

The book or the whole series?  :laugh:

I guess asking a question about the different kinds of liturgies would have been somewhat silly. Is there a website or someplace that does have a listing of that sort?
Title: Re: Differences in Liturgy
Post by: akimori makoto on July 23, 2012, 05:56:54 AM
Quote
Greek threw away the litany for catechumen while Russians didn't.

Not quite. Most, if not all, of the twenty-odd Greek parishes in the city where I live have reinstated the Litany for the Catechumens. It started happening about 15 years ago.

And, for balance, in our cathedral parish the litany of the catechumens is prayed silently.
Title: Re: Differences in Liturgy
Post by: mike on July 23, 2012, 06:48:30 AM
The book or the whole series?  :laugh:

Whole series with movies.

Quote
I guess asking a question about the different kinds of liturgies would have been somewhat silly. Is there a website or someplace that does have a listing of that sort?

It's not a silly question but it's impossible to be answered in 5 sentences. Try watching some youtube videos if you are interested in general differences.
Title: Re: Differences in Liturgy
Post by: Paisius on July 23, 2012, 12:40:14 PM
Here is an interesting piece that addresses some of your questions. The only problem is if you're not at least somewhat familiar with the liturgy a lot of it may not make a lot of sense.

Some differences between Greek and Russian divine services and their significance (http://www.holy-trinity.org/liturgics/krivoshein-greekandrussian.html)
Title: Re: Differences in Liturgy
Post by: LizaSymonenko on July 23, 2012, 01:03:10 PM

Why did certain parishes drop the litany of the catechumens?  Is this a per parish thing?  Or a Church thing?

There are always (hopefully) catechumens out there.

My Ukrainian church loudly prays for the catechumens!  What I truly find funny though, is when the priest instructs the catechumens to bow their heads, about half of the parishioners bow.  I guess they just don't know what a catechumen is.
Title: Re: Differences in Liturgy
Post by: Orthodox11 on July 23, 2012, 01:27:27 PM
Greeks threw away the litany for catechumen while Russians didn't.

Well, not quite. Churches of the Ecumenical Patriarchate began reading the litany of the catechumens silently (it's not omitted), though it's still done in many parishes. Other Greek churches, such as Cyprus, still pray the litany of the catechumens as normal.
Title: Re: Differences in Liturgy
Post by: podkarpatska on July 23, 2012, 01:31:06 PM
Here is an interesting piece that addresses some of your questions. The only problem is if you're not at least somewhat familiar with the liturgy a lot of it may not make a lot of sense.

Some differences between Greek and Russian divine services and their significance (http://www.holy-trinity.org/liturgics/krivoshein-greekandrussian.html)

Interesting article, but I have a question about this:  "Following the 1838 reform, the Greeks (except the Athonite monks who kept the old order) replaced Psalms 102/103 ("Bless the Lord, O my soul") and 145/146 ("Praise the Lord, O my soul") as well as the Beatitudes, which follow, by antiphons, i.e. brief appeals to the Theotokos or to Christ, Who is risen and is praised in His saints. The Russians continue to sing, each Sunday, the two noted psalms and the Beatitudes. They are replaced by antiphons only at great feasts or on weekdays."

I am a bit confused as the Greek Catholic usage, at least for the Ruthenians and the Galician/Ukrainians, in the Sluzebniks published in the 19th century in both Presov and some in L'viv prescribed the 'reformed' antiphons AND the Beatitudes. During the Great Fast, the Psalms 102/103 and 145/146 were prescribed in the place of aforementioned antiphons. It is my understanding that this comes from the so-called Ruthenian Rescension(sic) as promulgated through the reforms of St. Peter Mohyla in the mid-17th century and which would have represented the common practice in that part of Europe dating back to pre-union times. (ACROD's Liturgy in English follows this form to this day.)  Perhaps I am in error, but this would lead me to believe that the Church of Constantinople had used this practice at a far earlier date in time than 1838 - at least into the late 16th and early 17th centuries - being the time frame of the Unions of Brest and Uzhorod. Perhaps 1838 is the date when an attempt to make the same a uniform practice within all of the Church of Constantinople took place? Perhaps a student of Liturgical History might have the answer. Thank you!
Title: Re: Differences in Liturgy
Post by: Schultz on July 23, 2012, 01:36:33 PM
Here is an interesting piece that addresses some of your questions. The only problem is if you're not at least somewhat familiar with the liturgy a lot of it may not make a lot of sense.

Some differences between Greek and Russian divine services and their significance (http://www.holy-trinity.org/liturgics/krivoshein-greekandrussian.html)

Interesting article, but I have a question about this:  "Following the 1838 reform, the Greeks (except the Athonite monks who kept the old order) replaced Psalms 102/103 ("Bless the Lord, O my soul") and 145/146 ("Praise the Lord, O my soul") as well as the Beatitudes, which follow, by antiphons, i.e. brief appeals to the Theotokos or to Christ, Who is risen and is praised in His saints. The Russians continue to sing, each Sunday, the two noted psalms and the Beatitudes. They are replaced by antiphons only at great feasts or on weekdays."

I am a bit confused as the Greek Catholic usage, at least for the Ruthenians and the Galician/Ukrainians, in the Sluzebniks published in the 19th century in both Presov and some in L'viv prescribed the 'reformed' antiphons AND the Beatitudes. During the Great Fast, the Psalms 102/103 and 145/146 were prescribed in the place of aforementioned antiphons. It is my understanding that this comes from the so-called Ruthenian Rescension(sic) as promulgated through the reforms of St. Peter Mohyla in the mid-17th century and which would have represented the common practice in that part of Europe dating back to pre-union times. (ACROD's Liturgy in English follows this form to this day.)  Perhaps I am in error, but this would lead me to believe that the Church of Constantinople had used this practice at a far earlier date in time than 1838 - at least into the late 16th and early 17th centuries - being the time frame of the Unions of Brest and Uzhorod. Perhaps 1838 is the date when an attempt to make the same a uniform practice within all of the Church of Constantinople took place? Perhaps a student of Liturgical History might have the answer. Thank you!

The same thing struck me.
Title: Re: Differences in Liturgy
Post by: Orthodox11 on July 23, 2012, 01:42:26 PM
I am a bit confused as the Greek Catholic usage, at least for the Ruthenians and the Galician/Ukrainians, in the Sluzebniks published in the 19th century in both Presov and some in L'viv prescribed the 'reformed' antiphons AND the Beatitudes. During the Great Fast, the Psalms 102/103 and 145/146 were prescribed in the place of aforementioned antiphons. It is my understanding that this comes from the so-called Ruthenian Rescension(sic) as promulgated through the reforms of St. Peter Mohyla in the mid-17th century and which would have represented the common practice in that part of Europe dating back to pre-union times. (ACROD's Liturgy in English follows this form to this day.)  Perhaps I am in error, but this would lead me to believe that the Church of Constantinople had used this practice at a far earlier date in time than 1838 - at least into the late 16th and early 17th centuries - being the time frame of the Unions of Brest and Uzhorod. Perhaps 1838 is the date when an attempt to make the same a uniform practice within all of the Church of Constantinople took place? Perhaps a student of Liturgical History might have the answer. Thank you!

Interesting. Thanks!
Title: Re: Differences in Liturgy
Post by: Gorazd on July 23, 2012, 01:52:33 PM
Well, in the Ottoman empire, it wasn't exactly legal to have catechumens. So that might be one reason.
Here in Frankfurt, I mostly attend a Greek parish under the EP's Metropolitan Augustine, where the litany for the catechumens is prayed aloud. But it is a parish that does have catechumens.

Interesting article, but I have a question about this:  "Following the 1838 reform, the Greeks (except the Athonite monks who kept the old order) replaced Psalms 102/103 ("Bless the Lord, O my soul") and 145/146 ("Praise the Lord, O my soul") as well as the Beatitudes, which follow, by antiphons, i.e. brief appeals to the Theotokos or to Christ, Who is risen and is praised in His saints. The Russians continue to sing, each Sunday, the two noted psalms and the Beatitudes. They are replaced by antiphons only at great feasts or on weekdays."
It seems to me that the Bulgarians follow the Greek use on that point. It might be because they were under Constantinople in 1838?
Title: Re: Differences in Liturgy
Post by: podkarpatska on July 23, 2012, 05:12:35 PM
I am a bit confused as the Greek Catholic usage, at least for the Ruthenians and the Galician/Ukrainians, in the Sluzebniks published in the 19th century in both Presov and some in L'viv prescribed the 'reformed' antiphons AND the Beatitudes. During the Great Fast, the Psalms 102/103 and 145/146 were prescribed in the place of aforementioned antiphons. It is my understanding that this comes from the so-called Ruthenian Rescension(sic) as promulgated through the reforms of St. Peter Mohyla in the mid-17th century and which would have represented the common practice in that part of Europe dating back to pre-union times. (ACROD's Liturgy in English follows this form to this day.)  Perhaps I am in error, but this would lead me to believe that the Church of Constantinople had used this practice at a far earlier date in time than 1838 - at least into the late 16th and early 17th centuries - being the time frame of the Unions of Brest and Uzhorod. Perhaps 1838 is the date when an attempt to make the same a uniform practice within all of the Church of Constantinople took place? Perhaps a student of Liturgical History might have the answer. Thank you!

Interesting. Thanks!

I should have noted that St. Peter Mohyla was the Orthodox Metropolitan of Kiev and all Halich from 1633 through his death in 1646. His tenure postdated the Union of Brest from 1596 and was contemporaneous with the 1646 Union of Uzghorod.
Title: Re: Differences in Liturgy
Post by: LBK on July 23, 2012, 07:46:56 PM
Here is an interesting piece that addresses some of your questions. The only problem is if you're not at least somewhat familiar with the liturgy a lot of it may not make a lot of sense.

Some differences between Greek and Russian divine services and their significance (http://www.holy-trinity.org/liturgics/krivoshein-greekandrussian.html)

That article is full of errors, unfortunately. Much of it doesn't match up with my experiences over some 50 years of both Russian and Greek church life.
Title: Re: Differences in Liturgy
Post by: MontChevalier on July 23, 2012, 07:54:21 PM
Here is an interesting piece that addresses some of your questions. The only problem is if you're not at least somewhat familiar with the liturgy a lot of it may not make a lot of sense.

Some differences between Greek and Russian divine services and their significance (http://www.holy-trinity.org/liturgics/krivoshein-greekandrussian.html)

That article is full of errors, unfortunately. Much of it doesn't match up with my experiences over some 50 years of both Russian and Greek church life.

.....what?  ???

What the heck, yo?
Title: Re: Differences in Liturgy
Post by: LBK on July 23, 2012, 07:59:43 PM
Here is an interesting piece that addresses some of your questions. The only problem is if you're not at least somewhat familiar with the liturgy a lot of it may not make a lot of sense.

Some differences between Greek and Russian divine services and their significance (http://www.holy-trinity.org/liturgics/krivoshein-greekandrussian.html)

That article is full of errors, unfortunately. Much of it doesn't match up with my experiences over some 50 years of both Russian and Greek church life.

.....what?  ???

What the heck, yo?

Try this thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,37423.0.html
Title: Re: Differences in Liturgy
Post by: Kerdy on July 23, 2012, 08:01:46 PM
Quote
Greek threw away the litany for catechumen while Russians didn't.

Not quite. Most, if not all, of the twenty-odd Greek parishes in the city where I live have reinstated the Litany for the Catechumens. It started happening about 15 years ago.

It is read in our parish, but I was told it is more of a reminder of the past.  No one is required to leave.
Title: Re: Differences in Liturgy
Post by: Paisius on July 23, 2012, 10:14:27 PM
Here is an interesting piece that addresses some of your questions. The only problem is if you're not at least somewhat familiar with the liturgy a lot of it may not make a lot of sense.

Some differences between Greek and Russian divine services and their significance (http://www.holy-trinity.org/liturgics/krivoshein-greekandrussian.html)

That article is full of errors, unfortunately. Much of it doesn't match up with my experiences over some 50 years of both Russian and Greek church life.


Is that experience mostly in the States (I apologize if I missed where you are from); or is some of it from overseas? Perhaps the author's experience in Europe in the 60's and 70's was different.
Title: Re: Differences in Liturgy
Post by: LBK on July 24, 2012, 02:17:30 AM
Here is an interesting piece that addresses some of your questions. The only problem is if you're not at least somewhat familiar with the liturgy a lot of it may not make a lot of sense.

Some differences between Greek and Russian divine services and their significance (http://www.holy-trinity.org/liturgics/krivoshein-greekandrussian.html)

That article is full of errors, unfortunately. Much of it doesn't match up with my experiences over some 50 years of both Russian and Greek church life.

Is that experience mostly in the States (I apologize if I missed where you are from); or is some of it from overseas? Perhaps the author's experience in Europe in the 60's and 70's was different.

My experience (which includes the '60s and '70s) spans three jurisdictions and three countries, including one country where Orthodoxy is the traditional and predominant faith.
Title: Re: Differences in Liturgy
Post by: MontChevalier on July 24, 2012, 02:28:15 AM
Here is an interesting piece that addresses some of your questions. The only problem is if you're not at least somewhat familiar with the liturgy a lot of it may not make a lot of sense.

Some differences between Greek and Russian divine services and their significance (http://www.holy-trinity.org/liturgics/krivoshein-greekandrussian.html)

That article is full of errors, unfortunately. Much of it doesn't match up with my experiences over some 50 years of both Russian and Greek church life.

.....what?  ???

What the heck, yo?

Try this thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,37423.0.html

My thanks.
Title: Re: Differences in Liturgy
Post by: Orthodox11 on July 24, 2012, 05:49:07 AM
That article is full of errors, unfortunately. Much of it doesn't match up with my experiences over some 50 years of both Russian and Greek church life.

Ditto.