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Moderated Forums => Free-For-All => Non-Religious Topics => Topic started by: Shiny on July 20, 2012, 01:32:21 PM

Title: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shiny on July 20, 2012, 01:32:21 PM
Just woke up to the news 12 people dead and many wounded in an Aurora, CO. None of my friends involved, thank God. However I did have one friend who was supposed to go but didn't, he's in shock right now.

Truly disgusting stuff and that dude who shot up the place looks exactly how I imagined Satan to look.

Colorado is just insane, now do you see why I want out of this state? Bring on the National Guard to public goings.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: orthonorm on July 20, 2012, 01:39:16 PM
This franchise is blessed.

A beloved actor dies during the run of the second installment.

A buncha people get shot during a record breaking opening of the third. I am waiting for a post 9/11ish announcement about how every American must see this film, so the terrorists don't win.

Color me cynical.

Sorry to hear about your friend.

Surprised this wasn't posted about earlier.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: HabteSelassie on July 20, 2012, 01:44:00 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

This franchise is blessed.

A beloved actor dies during the run of the second installment.

A buncha people get shot during a record breaking opening of the third. I am waiting for a post 9/11ish announcement about how every American must see this film, so the terrorists don't win.

Color me cynical.

Sorry to hear about your friend.

Surprised this wasn't posted about earlier.

America keeps sacrificing her children to Molech :(

Lord have His Mercy!!

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shiny on July 20, 2012, 01:48:53 PM
The irony is that TDKR I hear is a very violent film even compared to the other two in Nolan's trilogy.

And yeah he had to work at 6AM so that's why he didn't go. I couldn't imagine if I lost him as a friend.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shiny on July 20, 2012, 01:53:39 PM
"This is not only an act of extreme violence, it is also an act of depravity. It is beyond the power of words to fully express our sorrow this morning. Our prayers and condolences go first to the families of those killed, and we share the grief of everyone affected by this senseless event. We appreciate the swift work by local, state and federal law enforcement. Coloradans have a remarkable ability to support one another in times of crisis. This one of those times." - Gov. Hickenlooper. I like him.

EDIT: OMG he was literally head to toe with bulletproof gear and had a gas mask as well. That is insanity. People probably thought he was wearing a costume.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: mike on July 20, 2012, 02:01:29 PM
Why I am not surprised?

http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite/StatePatrol-Main/CBON/1251594549010
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shiny on July 20, 2012, 02:09:53 PM
Seriously, gun control at a time like this?
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: genesisone on July 20, 2012, 02:11:38 PM
It's rather sad that this topic is followed right now by this topic Show off your guns! (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,42477.0.html).

Apparently not a long way from "show off your guns" to "shoot off your guns". And that's intended to be serious not humourous. Both the glorification of guns and their abuse are deplorable.

BTW, there was a similarly sad shooting at a "get-to-know-your-neighbour" block party in Toronto this week as well.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shiny on July 20, 2012, 02:12:31 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/IdXoj.png)

WTF???????????????????????
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: vamrat on July 20, 2012, 02:15:17 PM
Seriously, gun control at a time like this?

Some people have no respect for the dead, only for their own urges.

May God have mercy on those killed by that mad man.

I hope your friend recovers, Achronos.

Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: mike on July 20, 2012, 02:19:58 PM
Seriously, gun control at a time like this?

What were they killed with? A shovel?
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: orthonorm on July 20, 2012, 02:21:16 PM
Seriously, gun control at a time like this?

Some people have no respect for the dead, only for their own urges.

May God have mercy on those killed by that mad man.

I hope your friend recovers, Achronos.



This is exactly the time to expose ideology.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shiny on July 20, 2012, 02:56:51 PM
Ok but aren't those laws just the same as everywhere in the country? I guess I'm missing it here.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Kerdy on July 20, 2012, 03:02:39 PM
Seriously, gun control at a time like this?

Some people have no respect for the dead, only for their own urges.

May God have mercy on those killed by that mad man.

I hope your friend recovers, Achronos.


+1
Lord Have Mercy!
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: vamrat on July 20, 2012, 03:07:43 PM
Seriously, gun control at a time like this?

Some people have no respect for the dead, only for their own urges.

May God have mercy on those killed by that mad man.

I hope your friend recovers, Achronos.



This is exactly the time to expose ideology.

But there are other threads discussing gun laws.  Perhaps Michal could start one in politics where we could discuss gun laws around the world and their causes and effects, that way both this tragedy and a thread devoted to showing pictures for those interested could be free from politics?  If he promised to keep the discussion non-sexual I would be more than willing to keep my responses in a similar vein.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shiny on July 20, 2012, 03:10:47 PM
I just made the threa in Politics so we can discuss it there.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: orthonorm on July 20, 2012, 03:17:39 PM
Seriously, gun control at a time like this?

Some people have no respect for the dead, only for their own urges.

May God have mercy on those killed by that mad man.

I hope your friend recovers, Achronos.



This is exactly the time to expose ideology.

But there are other threads discussing gun laws.  Perhaps Michal could start one in politics where we could discuss gun laws around the world and their causes and effects, that way both this tragedy and a thread devoted to showing pictures for those interested could be free from politics?  If he promised to keep the discussion non-sexual I would be more than willing to keep my responses in a similar vein.

There is more than gun laws at work here.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shiny on July 20, 2012, 03:19:18 PM
That people have an urge to kill?
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Kerdy on July 20, 2012, 03:26:40 PM
Since this not in a prayer forum I feel it not too far out of bounds to ask if our anti-guns friends read about the 71 year old who defended an entire cafe with his weapon, and no one died.

The fellow who killed these innocent people is severely disturbed.  He would have found a way without guns as we have seen in the past, so blaming this on lack of gun control is ridiculous.  Had someone inside been carrying they may have been able to save some lives, as did the 71 year old.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 20, 2012, 03:43:10 PM
Since this not in a prayer forum I feel it not too far out of bounds to ask if our anti-guns friends read about the 71 year old who defended an entire cafe with his weapon, and no one died.

The fellow who killed these innocent people is severely disturbed.  He would have found a way without guns as we have seen in the past, so blaming this on lack of gun control is ridiculous.  Had someone inside been carrying they may have been able to save some lives, as did the 71 year old.

Yes... Having a weapon "easily accessible" only really becomes a problem with crimes of opportunity. In something clearly premeditated like this or like Columbine and Virginia Tech, the perpetrator is going to get a firearm no matter what.

If a couple is having an argument and one takes a pistol and shoots the other in anger (not in self-defense) you could argue that was an issue with "gun control", because the gun was there and was able to be used as a tool, but at the same time, that person could have grabbed a heavy object and done the same thing.

This is an issue of pre-meditation, and the firearm was (sadly) a tool he used to commit it. If we blame this on gun control, we could easily blame part of it on his easy access to gasoline since he threw a can in which exploded prior to opening fire. Or blame part of it on his ability to easily gain access to the wide variety of materials he could use to make the bombs and booby-trap his home.

Think of it like drugs... An addict starts using hardcore drugs. Those are banned and cracked down on and his supply is cut off. So the addict starts abusing over-the-counter medication. The medication is regulated and he switches to paint fumes... Those are regulated and controlled so he moves to canned air... A bittering agent is added to canned air and therefore he switches to something else.
While it isn't a direct analogy, the point is that someone who wants to do harm (to themselves or to others), they are going to find a way to do it and tools to do it with.

This cannot be blamed on video games, gun control or anything else. This is a man that simply needed serious help and should have been watched much more closely.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: vamrat on July 20, 2012, 03:45:03 PM
I just made the threa in Politics so we can discuss it there.

Thanks
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: mike on July 20, 2012, 03:45:37 PM
He would have found a way without guns

With a teaspoon or a pencil...

Quote
Had someone inside been carrying they may have been able to save some lives, as did the 71 year old.

But no one did despite the fact everyone can buy a gun in Colorado.

I wonder why I haven't ever heard about such things in Poland and in the USA they happen every two months. Any ideas?
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Νεκτάριος on July 20, 2012, 03:49:31 PM
I wonder why I haven't ever heard about such things in Poland and in the USA they happen every two months. Any ideas?

Poland is a communist country under martial law.  That's why.  If you had freedom like the Americans have...
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Kerdy on July 20, 2012, 03:53:16 PM
He would have found a way without guns

With a teaspoon or a pencil...

Quote
Had someone inside been carrying they may have been able to save some lives, as did the 71 year old.

But no one did despite the fact everyone can buy a gun in Colorado.

I wonder why I haven't ever heard about such things in Poland and in the USA they happen every two months. Any ideas?

Teaspoon or pencil?  Give a few moments while I research which one Tim McVey or Eric Rudolph used.  Or the group of Satan worshipping teens decided to use a few years back in North Carolina we found under an old ladies propane tank next to her house.  All I know is its a good thing none of them had guns.  Someone may have gotten hurt.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 20, 2012, 03:58:07 PM
He would have found a way without guns

With a teaspoon or a pencil...

Quote
Had someone inside been carrying they may have been able to save some lives, as did the 71 year old.

But no one did despite the fact everyone can buy a gun in Colorado.

I wonder why I haven't ever heard about such things in Poland and in the USA they happen every two months. Any ideas?

We are about 8 times larger and have a much higher crime rate. We are an incredibly individualistic and isolated nation and so even if you live next to a guy like this, you won't probably know it.

Drugs are illegal in our country and yet the addicts and dealers ALWAYS find the drugs and use/sell them. Regulating something doesn't mean the crime is going to end. The criminals are going to be criminals and are going to get access to illegal weapons no matter how many regulations are there.

As for why no one had a gun in the theater, that is probably because they couldn't because of the regulations that restrict bringing firearms into the building. Despite our ability to purchase firearms, that doesn't mean if we get a license to carry that we can carry them anywhere.

My high school (after I graduated) had put in metal detectors in at the doors. That keeps a student from sneaking something in to use later, but it won't stop a student from walking in and opening fire.

About 80% of inmates who committed crimes got their firearms through illegal means.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 20, 2012, 04:00:36 PM
Ok but aren't those laws just the same as everywhere in the country? I guess I'm missing it here.

It doesn't matter. Every time someone shoots someone else with a gun, we get the argument that guns are bad and should be banned.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 20, 2012, 04:02:19 PM
He would have found a way without guns

With a teaspoon or a pencil...

Quote
Had someone inside been carrying they may have been able to save some lives, as did the 71 year old.

But no one did despite the fact everyone can buy a gun in Colorado.

I wonder why I haven't ever heard about such things in Poland and in the USA they happen every two months. Any ideas?

Poland has had plenty of mass slaughters. Sheesh.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: mike on July 20, 2012, 04:03:33 PM
We are about 8 times larger and have a much higher crime rate.

Will you try to guess, why?

It doesn't matter. Every time someone shoots someone else with a gun, we get the argument that guns are bad and should be banned.

Thanks God for the right to carry a gun. It's so important for you that 12 people have recently died to defend it.

Poland has had plenty of mass slaughters. Sheesh.

???
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Kerdy on July 20, 2012, 04:08:10 PM
We are about 8 times larger and have a much higher crime rate.

Will you try to guess, why?

It doesn't matter. Every time someone shoots someone else with a gun, we get the argument that guns are bad and should be banned.

Thanks God for the right to carry a gun. It's so important for you that 12 people have recently died to defend it.

Poland has had plenty of mass slaughters. Sheesh.

???
Would you be so bold as to say Poland does not experience murder by way of gun?  I just looked at some statistics which reveal the opposite.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 20, 2012, 04:09:32 PM
We are about 8 times larger and have a much higher crime rate.

Will you try to guess, why?

It doesn't matter. Every time someone shoots someone else with a gun, we get the argument that guns are bad and should be banned.

Thanks God for the right to carry a gun. It's so important for you that 12 people have recently died to defend it.

Poland has had plenty of mass slaughters. Sheesh.

???

I forget. No one was ever killed in Poland. No wars were fought there. No atrocities committed. It was always a peaceful, idyllic place. And it always existed, just that in the 19th century it was assumed into heaven.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 20, 2012, 04:13:52 PM
We are about 8 times larger and have a much higher crime rate.

Will you try to guess, why?

It doesn't matter. Every time someone shoots someone else with a gun, we get the argument that guns are bad and should be banned.

Thanks God for the right to carry a gun. It's so important for you that 12 people have recently died to defend it.

Poland has had plenty of mass slaughters. Sheesh.

???

Our crime rate isn't related to the legal right to carry weapons. 80% of criminals in prison obtained firearms through illegal means. Most crimes are assault, with robbery being next, rape being third and murder being fourth. The causes for crime in the United States are varied but I would argue that the primary cause is socioeconomic conditions, societal conditions and the psychological conditions of criminals. I think we  also can include drugs as a huge cause for crime in the United States. Most criminals are poor, are from poor areas, are ethnic minorities and live and grow up in a culture of poverty. Many are members of gangs as well...

Also keep in mind, this was done just 30 miles away from Columbine High School. This man clearly was probably (unfortunately and sadly) inspired by the Columbine shootings.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: mike on July 20, 2012, 04:16:14 PM
Would you be so bold as to say Poland does not experience murder by way of gun?  I just looked at some statistics which reveal the opposite.

I say that in the modern history there haven't been any guy who shot a dozen of people in a public place just for nothing.

80% of criminals in prison obtained firearms through illegal means.

Why on earth anyone would obtain a gun trough illegal means if he can buy one in a supermarket?
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 20, 2012, 04:16:41 PM
Sadly relevant, OCN's weekly podcast's subject this week was on Violence:
http://www.myocn.net/index.php/201206294189/Come-Receive-the-Light/Violence-July-2012.html
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 20, 2012, 04:19:24 PM
Would you be so bold as to say Poland does not experience murder by way of gun?  I just looked at some statistics which reveal the opposite.

I say that in the modern history there haven't been any guy who shot a dozen of people in a public place just for nothing.

80% of criminals in prison obtained firearms through illegal means.

Why on earth anyone would obtain a gun trough illegal means if he can buy one in a supermarket?

You cannot legally buy a firearm if you have a criminal record, that is one thing... In order to get a firearm, you have to have a full background check by law. The criminals who want to commit crimes with firearms don't buy them from legitimate sources because they cannot buy them from those places. Those stores also must be regularly inspected by the state/federal government.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: mike on July 20, 2012, 04:22:06 PM
You cannot legally buy a firearm if you have a criminal record, that is one thing... In order to get a firearm, you have to have a full background check by law. The criminals who want to commit crimes with firearms don't buy them from legitimate sources because they cannot buy them from those places.

Or ask their relatives or friends to buy one for them...
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Kerdy on July 20, 2012, 04:23:12 PM
Just the one survey I looked at had 111 murders by gun in Poland.  

There are a variety of reasons to get a gun illegally.  Look at the Yakuza in Japan.  Gun laws only work for those who abide by the law.  Tracing it back to the criminal could be difficult, you are restricted from buying them, cheap drop guns, etc.

As you have been told before, you can't buy guns at the supermarket, at least not in America.  we must have different ideas what a supermarket is.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Kerdy on July 20, 2012, 04:24:19 PM
You cannot legally buy a firearm if you have a criminal record, that is one thing... In order to get a firearm, you have to have a full background check by law. The criminals who want to commit crimes with firearms don't buy them from legitimate sources because they cannot buy them from those places.

Or ask their relatives or friends to buy one for them...
Which must be disclosed or is a felony crime.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 20, 2012, 04:25:29 PM
You cannot legally buy a firearm if you have a criminal record, that is one thing... In order to get a firearm, you have to have a full background check by law. The criminals who want to commit crimes with firearms don't buy them from legitimate sources because they cannot buy them from those places.

Or ask their relatives or friends to buy one for them...

As I said though, most of these people live in a culture of poverty. Sadly, many of the people committing violent crimes only have friends who also have criminal records. Obviously that isn't the case for all of them. You have to understand who these people are and the places where they grow up.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: mike on July 20, 2012, 04:26:51 PM
You cannot legally buy a firearm if you have a criminal record, that is one thing... In order to get a firearm, you have to have a full background check by law. The criminals who want to commit crimes with firearms don't buy them from legitimate sources because they cannot buy them from those places.

Or ask their relatives or friends to buy one for them...
Which must be disclosed or is a felony crime.

I I wanted to buy a gun illegally I would have to make more effort that ask my sister do do it.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Kerdy on July 20, 2012, 04:29:26 PM
You cannot legally buy a firearm if you have a criminal record, that is one thing... In order to get a firearm, you have to have a full background check by law. The criminals who want to commit crimes with firearms don't buy them from legitimate sources because they cannot buy them from those places.

Or ask their relatives or friends to buy one for them...
Which must be disclosed or is a felony crime.

I I wanted to buy a gun illegally I would have to make more effort that ask my sister do do it.
Unless you are trying to get her arrested or unless she discloses she is buying for you, which still requires a criminal history check on you, and then would be legal if approved.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 20, 2012, 04:32:21 PM
If lax gun laws were to blame for shootings like this, there would be many more of them. We (and the rest of the world) have the problems we have not because of laws, but because of moral corruption, which the moral superiority of non-Americans and ex-pats does not negate.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 20, 2012, 04:34:12 PM
And by moral corruption, I do not just mean immorality, but the fabric of society and societal issues.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Νεκτάριος on July 20, 2012, 04:39:20 PM
If lax gun laws were to blame for shootings like this, there would be many more of them. We (and the rest of the world) have the problems we have not because of laws, but because of moral corruption, which the moral superiority of non-Americans and ex-pats does not negate.

At the very least the wide availability of guns and a culture that worships guns are contributing factors to a serious problem.  In this and other cases mental illness was likely a factor.  In other cases socio-economic issues are at the fore.  But to pretend that the American gun culture has nothing to do with the high rate of violent crime in the US seems a bit far fetched.  The low prices and 24 hour availability of vodka are also not contributing factors to alcohol abuse in Ukraine. 
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 20, 2012, 04:48:06 PM
If lax gun laws were to blame for shootings like this, there would be many more of them. We (and the rest of the world) have the problems we have not because of laws, but because of moral corruption, which the moral superiority of non-Americans and ex-pats does not negate.

At the very least the wide availability of guns and a culture that worships guns are contributing factors to a serious problem.  In this and other cases mental illness was likely a factor.  In other cases socio-economic issues are at the fore.  But to pretend that the American gun culture has nothing to do with the high rate of violent crime in the US seems a bit far fetched.  The low prices and 24 hour availability of vodka are also not contributing factors to alcohol abuse in Ukraine. 

But the mass-shooting is quite different than the daily murders with guns by gangs of one sort or another. If you look at the elements of the crime, you will find few, if any, commonalities other than the use of a firearm. You cannot fix either, however, without addressing the underlying problems, both of which are also different.

Also, I think the accusation that America worships guns is lame and highly inaccurate.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: mike on July 20, 2012, 04:50:51 PM
Also, I think the accusation that America worships guns is lame and highly inaccurate.

LOL
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shiny on July 20, 2012, 04:52:58 PM
Edit
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Νεκτάριος on July 20, 2012, 04:58:37 PM
Moved to Politics.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shiny on July 20, 2012, 05:01:20 PM
I want to comment on this but I'll wait until it gets moved into Politics first.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 20, 2012, 05:08:33 PM
If lax gun laws were to blame for shootings like this, there would be many more of them. We (and the rest of the world) have the problems we have not because of laws, but because of moral corruption, which the moral superiority of non-Americans and ex-pats does not negate.

At the very least the wide availability of guns and a culture that worships guns are contributing factors to a serious problem.  In this and other cases mental illness was likely a factor.  In other cases socio-economic issues are at the fore.  But to pretend that the American gun culture has nothing to do with the high rate of violent crime in the US seems a bit far fetched.  The low prices and 24 hour availability of vodka are also not contributing factors to alcohol abuse in Ukraine. 

But the mass-shooting is quite different than the daily murders with guns by gangs of one sort or another. If you look at the elements of the crime, you will find few, if any, commonalities other than the use of a firearm. You cannot fix either, however, without addressing the underlying problems, both of which are also different.

Also, I think the accusation that America worships guns is lame and highly inaccurate.

See the "Guns in Church" and "Show off your guns" threads.  They accentuate the difference between American and European culture pretty accurately.  The very idea that guns are an intrinsic human right is completely foreign to people in many countries around the world - countries which score higher on the varies indices of freedom, HDI, etc.  Whether you agree with American gun policy or not, I think it is a fair statement to make that gun culture is radically different in the US.  Again, I agree with you that to some extent simply clamping down on guns is meaningless without addressing the underlying issue.  On the other hand the complete unwillingness to take a step back and realize that there might be a serious problem is frustrating.  

If you want to keep on the theme, then there are several "gun cultures" in America, and they do not pose the same threats to societal well-being. The "gun culture" intrinsic to American culture from the beginning had primarily to do with self-sufficiency and protection. The "gun culture" that exists in the criminal world is quite different. Then there is the "gun culture" amongst those with violent predilections. That is quite different from the other two. The first gun culture is going to oppose gun regulation as a matter of course in that it infringes on their rights as responsible, law-abiding gun owners. The second gun culture isn't going to care because they can obtain guns easily through the black market, as opposed to the alleged supermarket of gun-buying myth. The third can accomplish their homicidal fantasies through other means.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: orthonorm on July 20, 2012, 05:17:08 PM
Since this not in a prayer forum I feel it not too far out of bounds to ask

For once you are correct, for at least a sentence fragment.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: orthonorm on July 20, 2012, 05:25:28 PM
While access to guns is to blame for sure, that is not what is most interesting from a critical ideological perspective.

After all, it is impossible to argue that the sort of access to firearms we have in this country is part of the equation here. You have to be in denial to think otherwise and you would have to be analyst of the magnitude never known to convince those in that degree of denial otherwise.

Given that.

I am especially interest in the non-political political rhetoric now being used. 

I wrote a draft as soon Achronos posted here that I may or may not post. It already critiqued the way the speech would revolve around this "tragedy".

Dunno what "politics" is except everything that humans engage in.

Too many fires in the iron at the moment to go any further, to offer an apt malapropism.




Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 20, 2012, 06:19:45 PM
For those of you who think of this incident solely as a gun control issue, consider also that the suspect, PhD student James Holmes, has his apartment so thoroughly booby trapped that the triggering of one of his traps may very likely blow up his whole apartment building.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shiny on July 20, 2012, 06:22:44 PM
Honestly I know people are quick to judge James, but I really want to know why he did it and what caused it. Just from some of the background that is emerging he seems like a normal kid but in June 2012 he dropped out of pursuing a PhD. Maybe dropping out caused him to be disillusioned and used the Joker's terrorism from the Dark Knight in some manner. Maybe he blurred reality from imagination by depression or something.

I'm very much interested in the motive here.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: orthonorm on July 20, 2012, 06:27:59 PM
Honestly I know people are quick to judge James, but I really want to know why he did it and what caused it. Just from some of the background that is emerging he seems like a normal kid but in June 2012 he dropped out of pursuing a PhD. Maybe dropping out caused him to be disillusioned and used the Joker's terrorism from the Dark Knight in some manner. Maybe he blurred reality from imagination by depression or something.

I'm very much interested in the motive here.

You are falling into the trap . . .
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shiny on July 20, 2012, 06:30:46 PM
What trap is that? Sympathy for the killer?
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 20, 2012, 07:53:37 PM
What trap is that? Sympathy for the killer?
Pleased to meet you. Hope you guess my name.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shiny on July 20, 2012, 08:04:29 PM
What trap is that? Sympathy for the killer?
Pleased to meet you. Hope you guess my name.
But what's puzzling you, is the nature of my game
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Hiwot on July 20, 2012, 08:18:17 PM
What trap is that? Sympathy for the killer?
Pleased to meet you. Hope you guess my name.
But what's puzzling you, is the nature of my game

the question being, who should we blame.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 20, 2012, 08:29:46 PM
What trap is that? Sympathy for the killer?
Pleased to meet you. Hope you guess my name.
But what's puzzling you, is the nature of my game

the question being, who should we blame.
This isn't just any old rhyme, though. ;) Achronos and I were quoting an old Rolling Stones song.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Hiwot on July 20, 2012, 08:40:39 PM
What trap is that? Sympathy for the killer?
Pleased to meet you. Hope you guess my name.
But what's puzzling you, is the nature of my game

the question being, who should we blame.
This isn't just any old rhyme, though. ;) Achronos and I were quoting an old Rolling Stones song.

Ah! peter  :laugh: that one just passed me by, I will let you get the right come back to Achronos from the Rolling Stones then.  ;D
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Kerdy on July 20, 2012, 09:06:16 PM
If lax gun laws were to blame for shootings like this, there would be many more of them. We (and the rest of the world) have the problems we have not because of laws, but because of moral corruption, which the moral superiority of non-Americans and ex-pats does not negate.

At the very least the wide availability of guns and a culture that worships guns are contributing factors to a serious problem.  In this and other cases mental illness was likely a factor.  In other cases socio-economic issues are at the fore.  But to pretend that the American gun culture has nothing to do with the high rate of violent crime in the US seems a bit far fetched.  The low prices and 24 hour availability of vodka are also not contributing factors to alcohol abuse in Ukraine. 

I think meanness is one of the greatest factors.  Should we attempt to regulate a person’s disposition by laws as well?  I have spent most of my life in America and met no one who worships guns.  Violence on the other hand... 

I know some "gun nuts" of the highest degree and some of those are borderline "the government is out to get me", but none of them worship their guns.  I know of one specific person who has a Charlton Heston type gun room, but even he (in his post-apocalyptic scenario based preparation) does not worship guns, unless he also worships bottled water, solar panels, and MRE’s.  Sex and violence fuels far too much of our culture, but nothing shows Americans worship guns.  This is a blatant over exaggeration and ignores the fact people use whatever is at their disposal to hurt someone regardless of what country they live in.  Some of the bloodiest engagements in human history were prior to the manufacture of guns. 

I am sure you have heard this before, but I will repeat it.  “Blaming violence on guns is like blaming obesity on the spoon.”
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shiny on July 20, 2012, 09:09:19 PM
I am sure you have heard this before, but I will repeat it.  “Blaming violence on guns is like blaming obesity on the spoon.”

Yeah yeah I've heard the argument before, it's the one who pulls the trigger, the gun itself is neutral. But take away the gun and we don't have to worry about the violent aspect of it right? Just like if we took away the McDonalds and fast food we can get rid of the obesity.

However that would remove man's choice, which is something I am diametrically opposed to.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Kerdy on July 20, 2012, 09:12:31 PM
For those of you who think of this incident solely as a gun control issue, consider also that the suspect, PhD student James Holmes, has his apartment so thoroughly booby trapped that the triggering of one of his traps may very likely blow up his whole apartment building.

Yes, and if I remember correctly, he had acquired body armor as well.  This was a seriously disturbed individual who had premeditated his murderous actions.  Some of his actions are similar to those who operate clandestine labs, at least with his apartment.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Kerdy on July 20, 2012, 09:15:18 PM
Honestly I know people are quick to judge James, but I really want to know why he did it and what caused it. Just from some of the background that is emerging he seems like a normal kid but in June 2012 he dropped out of pursuing a PhD. Maybe dropping out caused him to be disillusioned and used the Joker's terrorism from the Dark Knight in some manner. Maybe he blurred reality from imagination by depression or something.

I'm very much interested in the motive here.
As am I.  I would not be surprised to find he suffered from some sort of dependency issues, but who knows.  With the amount of synthetic drugs available to people today it would make sense, but then we have people with nothing in their system chewing off the face of another person for no apparent reason.  Satan's grip is tightening.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Kerdy on July 20, 2012, 09:19:09 PM
I am sure you have heard this before, but I will repeat it.  “Blaming violence on guns is like blaming obesity on the spoon.”

Yeah yeah I've heard the argument before, it's the one who pulls the trigger, the gun itself is neutral. But take away the gun and we don't have to worry about the violent aspect of it right? Just like if we took away the McDonalds and fast food we can get rid of the obesity.

However that would remove man's choice, which is something I am diametrically opposed to.

Also, it would not solve the problem.  Without fast food, people would still be fat.  Without guns, people would still commit horrid acts of violence to each other.  
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shiny on July 20, 2012, 09:53:17 PM
But I think people, out of the goodness of their hearts would not choose violence. I'm not that cynical about human nature.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Kerdy on July 20, 2012, 10:04:24 PM
But I think people, out of the goodness of their hearts would not choose violence. I'm not that cynical about human nature.

This is where you and I differ.  You (and correct me if I misspeak) believe people are inherently good, while I believe people are inherently bad.  It is easy to do the wrong thing, but we must learn to do the right thing.  This is evident in children and young people.  If a child has a toy taken from them from another child, how often do we see the first child strike out at the second in anger?  Very often, and at such a young age, this is not a learned behavior, it’s already there.  Then you hear mom say, “NO (insert name here)!  We don’t hit other people.”

Granted, there are those who are absolute pacifists and have been their entire lives, but I see them as the minority.  The older I get, the more experience I obtain and the more exposure I have with random people, the more I realized the average person is continually resisting the bad within them, and as our society dissolves around us, the harder they must fight to keep it in (myself included).  Sadly, more and more people are succumbing to that bad, evil, dark, or whatever term you choose to use, which has been there since birth and strike out against the world.  I once believed people would do the right thing when given the opportunity, but I now know that is a rare thing indeed.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: yeshuaisiam on July 20, 2012, 10:23:57 PM
Just woke up to the news 12 people dead and many wounded in an Aurora, CO. None of my friends involved, thank God. However I did have one friend who was supposed to go but didn't, he's in shock right now.

Truly disgusting stuff and that dude who shot up the place looks exactly how I imagined Satan to look.

Colorado is just insane, now do you see why I want out of this state? Bring on the National Guard to public goings.

No, it happens everywhere.   I think they should have the "comfort quilt" unfortunately.   It's actually a beautiful story.

It was a quilt given by Catholic students made a quilt and gave it to the children of the victims of 9/11 and displayed.
When the Mad Wisconsin shootings happened, it was sent there.
When Katrina happened, it was sent there, and displayed.
When Nickle Mines shooting happened to the Amish, it was displayed at the fire house.  The Amish built a wooden box for it.
When Virginia Tech happened, the quilt was sent there, and displayed.


Well.... Here - http://lancasteronline.com/article/local/209108_From-Nickel-Mines-to-Va--Tech.html
 (http://lancasteronline.com/article/local/209108_From-Nickel-Mines-to-Va--Tech.html)

Very beautiful story, and wonderful thing, but I SURE HOPE I never get it.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: mike on July 21, 2012, 08:15:39 AM
I am sure you have heard this before, but I will repeat it.  “Blaming violence on guns is like blaming obesity on the spoon.”

I have not heard such a stupid argument before.

Obesity is a result of mishandled human natural necessity. Killing is not a natural necessity.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Punch on July 21, 2012, 09:37:43 AM
I am sure you have heard this before, but I will repeat it.  “Blaming violence on guns is like blaming obesity on the spoon.”

I have not heard such a stupid argument before.

Obesity is a result of mishandled human natural necessity. Killing is not a natural necessity.

Yet it is the second thing humans learned to do, right after learning to screw.  Pity you are so ignorant of human nature. 
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on July 21, 2012, 09:41:11 AM
I am sure you have heard this before, but I will repeat it.  “Blaming violence on guns is like blaming obesity on the spoon.”

I have not heard such a stupid argument before.

Obesity is a result of mishandled human natural necessity. Killing is not a natural necessity.

Michal, your arguments againsts guns (ad nauseum, I might add) will never bear fruit; the right to bear arms is in our constitution. Sooooo, your opinions don't mean diddly.  :-*
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: mike on July 21, 2012, 10:02:59 AM
the right to bear arms is in our constitution.

If you had in constitution you can defecate on the streets would you do it too?
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Kerdy on July 21, 2012, 12:09:04 PM
I am sure you have heard this before, but I will repeat it.  “Blaming violence on guns is like blaming obesity on the spoon.”

I have not heard such a stupid argument before.

Obesity is a result of mishandled human natural necessity. Killing is not a natural necessity.
Perhaps as a result of it not being stupid. 

If we eliminate all guns in the world and people start using bricks to kill, will you argue of the intrinsic evil nature of the brick and promote a brick free society?
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Kerdy on July 21, 2012, 12:09:47 PM
the right to bear arms is in our constitution.

If you had in constitution you can defecate on the streets would you do it too?
But it doesn't say that.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Kerdy on July 21, 2012, 12:12:04 PM
He would have found a way without guns

With a teaspoon or a pencil...

Quote
Had someone inside been carrying they may have been able to save some lives, as did the 71 year old.

But no one did despite the fact everyone can buy a gun in Colorado.

I wonder why I haven't ever heard about such things in Poland and in the USA they happen every two months. Any ideas?

Teaspoon or pencil?  Give a few moments while I research which one Tim McVey or Eric Rudolph used.  Or the group of Satan worshipping teens decided to use a few years back in North Carolina we found under an old ladies propane tank next to her house.  All I know is its a good thing none of them had guns.  Someone may have gotten hurt.

No response?  Nor any reply about the old man in the cafe?
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: mike on July 21, 2012, 12:22:34 PM
the right to bear arms is in our constitution.

If you had in constitution you can defecate on the streets would you do it too?
But it doesn't say that.

Yor constitution makes the USA no safer than Somalia.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Kerdy on July 21, 2012, 12:32:05 PM
the right to bear arms is in our constitution.

If you had in constitution you can defecate on the streets would you do it too?
But it doesn't say that.

Yor constitution makes the USA no safer than Somalia.

Proof?  Not to mention that was not the design or purpose of the constitution.  By the way, I've been to that part of the world.  It must be nice to sling around empty one liners.  If I may have a go at it...Polands gun laws do not make Poland safer.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: mike on July 21, 2012, 12:34:07 PM
Polands gun laws do not make Poland safer.

I don't go to the University with fear I got shot.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Kerdy on July 21, 2012, 12:36:28 PM
Polands gun laws do not make Poland safer.

I don't go to the University with fear I got shot.

Nor do I.  What was your point?
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: mike on July 21, 2012, 12:39:42 PM
Polands gun laws do not make Poland safer.

I don't go to the University with fear I got shot.

Nor do I.  What was your point?

You are a brave man.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Spree_shootings_in_the_United_States
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: genesisone on July 21, 2012, 12:43:02 PM
I am sure you have heard this before, but I will repeat it.  “Blaming violence on guns is like blaming obesity on the spoon.”

I have not heard such a stupid argument before.

Obesity is a result of mishandled human natural necessity. Killing is not a natural necessity.

Michal, your arguments againsts guns (ad nauseum, I might add) will never bear fruit; the right to bear arms is in our constitution. Sooooo, your opinions don't mean diddly.  :-*
So it's the old Solā Constitutione argument. I guess we're beat. :P
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 21, 2012, 12:57:10 PM
Polands gun laws do not make Poland safer.

I don't go to the University with fear I got shot.

Nor do I.  What was your point?

You are a brave man.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Spree_shootings_in_the_United_States
Mike, do you have anything of substance to contribute to this discussion?
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: stanley123 on July 21, 2012, 01:59:40 PM
This cannot be blamed on video games, gun control or anything else.
I don't see the support for that.
http://articles.cnn.com/2008-11-03/health/healthmag.violent.video.kids_1_violent-video-video-games-game-genres?_s=PM:HEALTH

http://islandia.law.yale.edu/ayers/Ayres_Donohue_article.pdf
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: vamrat on July 21, 2012, 02:34:31 PM
Polands gun laws do not make Poland safer.

I don't go to the University with fear I got shot.

Nor do I.  What was your point?

You are a brave man.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Spree_shootings_in_the_United_States

EDIT - I forgot that I didn't want to sully this thread.  In politics.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shiny on July 21, 2012, 02:41:00 PM
This cannot be blamed on video games, gun control or anything else.
I don't see the support for that.
http://articles.cnn.com/2008-11-03/health/healthmag.violent.video.kids_1_violent-video-video-games-game-genres?_s=PM:HEALTH

http://islandia.law.yale.edu/ayers/Ayres_Donohue_article.pdf

Please don't.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Punch on July 21, 2012, 04:44:43 PM
the right to bear arms is in our constitution.

If you had in constitution you can defecate on the streets would you do it too?
But it doesn't say that.

Yor constitution makes the USA no safer than Somalia.

Your use of logic makes you appear no smarter than an amoeba.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shiny on July 21, 2012, 10:09:41 PM
There's nothing more disgusting about this case than the fact people like Alex Jones are concocting conspiracy theories that the government was involved somehow. Is everything just some big conspiracy theory? He obviously planned this for months and there is virtually no evidence, yet, to confirm he had any relations with the FBI or such.

He was an extremely bright student, at the top of class, and I still can't connect the dots to what happened and the person he supposedly is based on his background. I hope more concrete information surfaces that may indicate prior issues.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 21, 2012, 10:13:48 PM
There's nothing more disgusting about this case than the fact people like Alex Jones are concocting conspiracy theories that the government was involved somehow. Is everything just some big conspiracy theory? He obviously planned this for months and there is virtually no evidence, yet, to confirm he had any relations with the FBI or such.

He was an extremely bright student, at the top of class, and I still can't connect the dots to what happened and the person he supposedly is based on his background. I hope more concrete information surfaces that may indicate prior issues.
Yes, the painstaking level of detail shown in his preparations for this dastardly act are consistent with someone at the top of his PhD class. However, genius intellect does not imply angelic character.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shiny on July 21, 2012, 10:21:03 PM
There's nothing more disgusting about this case than the fact people like Alex Jones are concocting conspiracy theories that the government was involved somehow. Is everything just some big conspiracy theory? He obviously planned this for months and there is virtually no evidence, yet, to confirm he had any relations with the FBI or such.

He was an extremely bright student, at the top of class, and I still can't connect the dots to what happened and the person he supposedly is based on his background. I hope more concrete information surfaces that may indicate prior issues.
Yes, the painstaking level of detail shown in his preparations for this dastardly act are consistent with someone at the top of his PhD class. However, genius intellect does not imply angelic character.
No it doesn't, however I want to know what triggered him to do this. We've only scratched the surface so far on Holmes' background which doesn't show any apparent character issues or psychological problems. I'm sure things will surface more in time and hopefully he admits why he did it instead of his lawyer trying to get him to plead for insanity. Which I'm not denying the latter, by the way, but you know how defense lawyers are in this situation...
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shiny on July 21, 2012, 10:27:41 PM
BTW CNN practically made a how-to guide on doing the same thing Holmes did.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/20/justice/colorado-shooting-weapons/index.html
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Hiwot on July 21, 2012, 10:54:22 PM
Achronos, I  want to say that I am so sorry my brother, 'hugs' this has to be especially disturbing to you seeing how you live in the place that this nightmare has happened and  how close your  dear friend has come to this horror and the continuing trauma of the event. God be with you and with all those that are distressed and grieving over this, may the Lord give eternal rest to those who have reposed. May the Lord give quick recovery to health for those who are in the hospitals, Lord have mercy!
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shiny on July 21, 2012, 11:11:22 PM
Yeah I've been to that exact movie theater years ago. If I didn't work late that night and if he didn't work at 6AM the next day, I'm sure we would have gotten a group together of friends to go see it (all whom are in Aurora and would have went to that exact theater). I just found out today my friend Ihsan was there that night with a group of people, that is just nuts. He's fine though.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shiny on July 21, 2012, 11:28:38 PM
"You have the right person," she said, apparently speaking on gut instinct.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/aurora-dark-knight-shooting-suspect-identified-james-holmes/story?id=16818889

Can't wait until she explains more. Apparently she wasn't surprised...
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: HabteSelassie on July 22, 2012, 12:57:18 AM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I wonder why I haven't ever heard about such things in Poland and in the USA they happen every two months. Any ideas?

Poland is a communist country under martial law.  That's why.  If you had freedom like the Americans have...

Freedom to what kill each other?

This deserves a second and also repeated so therefore third: Lord have His mercy Lord have His Mercy. The first for the 12 deaths and 59 people who were shot.  The second for how seemingly hopeless America feels sometimes :(

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: stanley123 on July 22, 2012, 01:49:25 AM
He was an extremely bright student, at the top of class, and I still can't connect the dots to what happened and the person he supposedly is based on his background.
I thought he dropped out of graduate school. Was graduate school  too difficult for him or was there some other reason?
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shiny on July 22, 2012, 02:03:58 AM
No he was done with graduate school and doing his PhD until he withdrew a month ago.

BTW"

Quote
DENVER -- Sources close to the investigation of the Aurora theater shootings told the Call7 Investigators that the Aurora Police Department received an electronic communication that threatened violence if James Holmes wasn't released.

Holmes is accused in the slayings of 12 people and the wounding of 58 others at an Aurora theater early Friday.

The communication was traced through an internet protocol number to a router in Aurora. The person who lives at the address is an acquaintance of James Holmes through their program at the Anschutz Medical Campus, according to the sources.

Investigators are uncertain whether the person at the address actually sent the electronic communication or if someone routed it through that address.

Sources said they began looking for the fellow student Friday and they found him Saturday afternoon.

He has been interviewed. It was still unclear Saturday night whether the person actually sent the threat. But, investigators in interviewing him have gained more information about James Holmes, the sources said.
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/31293240/detail.html

Oh wow. I hear two more people might be connected with James.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Punch on July 22, 2012, 02:37:22 PM
But I think people, out of the goodness of their hearts would not choose violence. I'm not that cynical about human nature.

Really?  As I said in another post, the first thing man learned to do after learning to screw was to learn to kill.  I am that cynical about human nature.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on July 22, 2012, 03:06:15 PM
But I think people, out of the goodness of their hearts would not choose violence. I'm not that cynical about human nature.

Really?  As I said in another post, the first thing man learned to do after learning to screw was to learn to kill.  I am that cynical about human nature.

I'm not sure about the cynical part, but I believe you're Biblically literate.  Anyone else read Genesis?
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: orthonorm on July 22, 2012, 03:11:47 PM
But I think people, out of the goodness of their hearts would not choose violence. I'm not that cynical about human nature.

Really?  As I said in another post, the first thing man learned to do after learning to screw was to learn to kill.  I am that cynical about human nature.

I'm not sure about the cynical part, but I believe you're Biblically literate.  Anyone else read Genesis?

While I appreciate the rhetorical excesses of Punch's comment and like that sorta internetz, there is quite a gap between having sex and killing another human in Genesis.

I have read it.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on July 22, 2012, 03:16:46 PM
By Michal's logic the following should be banned:

Vehicles should be banned!  The speed limit in America varies from 30mph up to 70mph but manufacturers make cars and trucks that are capable of going over 130mph.  How many accidents could be prevented if these dangerous vehicles were banned?!!

Alchohol should be banned!  Drunk drivers, alcohol poisoning, rapes and other maladaptive endeavors are all attributed to alcholhol!!!

Metal should be banned!  If we banned metal, we wouldn't need to worry about guns, knives, swords, bullets, etc...!!!

Banana peels should be banned!  How many people have been seriously injured due to watching cartoons that use this malicious trick?!!



  
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Asteriktos on July 22, 2012, 03:18:30 PM
But I think people, out of the goodness of their hearts would not choose violence. I'm not that cynical about human nature.

I understand that people choose to do bad things all the time, but I agree that most people, at their core, are good. We call it the image of God sometimes. It just gets a little smudged and the likeness to God is lost, that's where the trouble comes in. Unfortunately the process starts as soon as we're born.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 22, 2012, 03:55:43 PM
Banana peels should be banned!  How many people have been seriously injured due to watching cartoons that use this malicious trick?!!
Does the name Ethel Merman ring a bell?
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: mike on July 22, 2012, 04:04:34 PM
Vehicles should be banned!  The speed limit in America varies from 30mph up to 70mph but manufacturers make cars and trucks that are capable of going over 130mph.  How many accidents could be prevented if these dangerous vehicles were banned?!!

Alchohol should be banned!  Drunk drivers, alcohol poisoning, rapes and other maladaptive endeavors are all attributed to alcholhol!!!

Metal should be banned!  If we banned metal, we wouldn't need to worry about guns, knives, swords, bullets, etc...!!!

Banana peels should be banned!  How many people have been seriously injured due to watching cartoons that use this malicious trick?!!   

All this things have other, to be frankly, main usage that do not require killing people. That cannot be said about guns.

I'm yet to see a man killing 12 people with a banana skin*.

My uncle slipped on a banana skin and spend 6 months in an orthopedic corset afterwards. To be frankly I wouldn't mind if bananas were banned. I have heartburn after them.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shiny on July 22, 2012, 04:07:00 PM
More bananas for me then, I'd probably go through a bunch of bananas if I could daily.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on July 22, 2012, 04:10:51 PM
Vehicles should be banned!  The speed limit in America varies from 30mph up to 70mph but manufacturers make cars and trucks that are capable of going over 130mph.  How many accidents could be prevented if these dangerous vehicles were banned?!!

Alchohol should be banned!  Drunk drivers, alcohol poisoning, rapes and other maladaptive endeavors are all attributed to alcholhol!!!

Metal should be banned!  If we banned metal, we wouldn't need to worry about guns, knives, swords, bullets, etc...!!!

Banana peels should be banned!  How many people have been seriously injured due to watching cartoons that use this malicious trick?!!   

My uncle slipped on a banana skin and spend 6 months in an orthopedic corset afterwards. To be frankly I wouldn't mind if bananas were banned. I have heartburn after them.

(http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/and-a-one-and-a-four-and-a-ching-chong-potato.png)
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on July 22, 2012, 04:12:45 PM
Vehicles should be banned!  The speed limit in America varies from 30mph up to 70mph but manufacturers make cars and trucks that are capable of going over 130mph.  How many accidents could be prevented if these dangerous vehicles were banned?!!

Alchohol should be banned!  Drunk drivers, alcohol poisoning, rapes and other maladaptive endeavors are all attributed to alcholhol!!!

Metal should be banned!  If we banned metal, we wouldn't need to worry about guns, knives, swords, bullets, etc...!!!

Banana peels should be banned!  How many people have been seriously injured due to watching cartoons that use this malicious trick?!!   

All this things have other, to be frankly, main usage that do not require killing people. That cannot be said about guns.

I'm yet to see a man killing 12 people with a banana skin*.

My uncle slipped on a banana skin and spend 6 months in an orthopedic corset afterwards. To be frankly I wouldn't mind if bananas were banned. I have heartburn after them.

You live in the wrong part of the world. The lethal banana peel maneuver is a special technique reserved for the most advanced martial arts practitioners.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shiny on July 22, 2012, 04:14:20 PM
Vehicles should be banned!  The speed limit in America varies from 30mph up to 70mph but manufacturers make cars and trucks that are capable of going over 130mph.  How many accidents could be prevented if these dangerous vehicles were banned?!!

Alchohol should be banned!  Drunk drivers, alcohol poisoning, rapes and other maladaptive endeavors are all attributed to alcholhol!!!

Metal should be banned!  If we banned metal, we wouldn't need to worry about guns, knives, swords, bullets, etc...!!!

Banana peels should be banned!  How many people have been seriously injured due to watching cartoons that use this malicious trick?!!  
All this things have other, to be frankly, main usage that do not require killing people. That cannot be said about guns.

I'm yet to see a man killing 12 people with a banana skin*.

My uncle slipped on a banana skin and spend 6 months in an orthopedic corset afterwards. To be frankly I wouldn't mind if bananas were banned. I have heartburn after them.

You live in the wrong part of the world. The lethal banana peel maneuver is a special technique reserved for the most advanced martial arts practitioners.
(http://i.imgur.com/37v9t.jpg)
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: mike on July 22, 2012, 04:17:57 PM

(http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/and-a-one-and-a-four-and-a-ching-chong-potato.png)

Making fun of the disabled...

I haven't expected such even from you.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shiny on July 22, 2012, 04:20:58 PM
https://twitter.com/MargieJPhelps/status/227108025528369153

    Great place for"God Sent the Shooter"sign. #thugs
    MT @OccupyDenver: Prayer vigil, tonight at
    7pm @ Kaiser Permanente 14701 E Exposition Ave.

Dude seriously we need to wipe these people off the face of the earth.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Punch on July 22, 2012, 04:28:05 PM
But I think people, out of the goodness of their hearts would not choose violence. I'm not that cynical about human nature.

Really?  As I said in another post, the first thing man learned to do after learning to screw was to learn to kill.  I am that cynical about human nature.

I'm not sure about the cynical part, but I believe you're Biblically literate.  Anyone else read Genesis?

While I appreciate the rhetorical excesses of Punch's comment and like that sorta internetz, there is quite a gap between having sex and killing another human in Genesis.

I have read it.

So did I.  Seems like they learned to screw in verse one of chapter four, and Able was dead by the end of verse eight.  At least that is how I remember it.  Not that big of a gap, if you ask me.  I will grant you that screwing was probably not the FIRST thing we learned.  We already had disobeying God and telling lies down pretty good before that.  I'm sorry, but if there was much good done on our part in the first four chapters of Genesis, I missed it.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shiny on July 22, 2012, 07:40:32 PM
Anyway I would like to say this, and I'm afraid it will come off as too sanctimonious but I am praying for James, and I do hope that he will come to repentence for his actions. If I was a victim or affected by this tragedy personally I would go and visit him. An act of love surely overrides any sort of retribution that many would like to see. Did not Christ dine with the sinners? Did not Christ also ask to pray for them?

What happened in Aurora was a tragedy, make no mistake about it, but I refuse to want any harm done to him. Lord have mercy on him and on all those that have been and will continually affected by what happend.

BTW I believe Asteriktos pretty much summed up what I was going to say. And I also think we have "evolved" quite a bit from the time of the Fall. Maybe it is a battle in all of us between killing in not killing and I sure have felt many of those emotions in my life. Bah.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Kerdy on July 22, 2012, 07:46:26 PM
Anyway I would like to say this, and I'm afraid it will come off as too sanctimonious but I am praying for James, and I do hope that he will come to repentence for his actions. If I was a victim or affected by this tragedy personally I would go and visit him. An act of love surely overrides any sort of retribution that many would like to see. Did not Christ dine with the sinners? Did not Christ also ask to pray for them?

What happened in Aurora was a tragedy, make no mistake about it, but I refuse to want any harm done to him. Lord have mercy on him and on all those that have been and will continually affected by what happend.

BTW I believe Asteriktos pretty much summed up what I was going to say. And I also think we have "evolved" quite a bit from the time of the Fall. Maybe it is a battle in all of us between killing in not killing and I sure have felt many of those emotions in my life. Bah.

I don’t think it is sanctimonious in any way.  Pope John Paul II did this very thing with the man who tried to kill him and we know how that turned out.  I hope this is how we all would act, but I realize it would be one of the most difficult things to do in this life.  I'm not sure I would be able to do this.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: orthonorm on July 22, 2012, 07:48:41 PM
But I think people, out of the goodness of their hearts would not choose violence. I'm not that cynical about human nature.

Really?  As I said in another post, the first thing man learned to do after learning to screw was to learn to kill.  I am that cynical about human nature.

I'm not sure about the cynical part, but I believe you're Biblically literate.  Anyone else read Genesis?

While I appreciate the rhetorical excesses of Punch's comment and like that sorta internetz, there is quite a gap between having sex and killing another human in Genesis.

I have read it.

So did I.  Seems like they learned to screw in verse one of chapter four, and Able was dead by the end of verse eight.  At least that is how I remember it.  Not that big of a gap, if you ask me.  I will grant you that screwing was probably not the FIRST thing we learned.  We already had disobeying God and telling lies down pretty good before that.  I'm sorry, but if there was much good done on our part in the first four chapters of Genesis, I missed it.

You have civilization which shows its discontents in that killing:

Social structure.
Agriculture and Animal Husbandry (which would include the enormous background knowledge which go into both).
Liturgical worship of God.

These three jump out from memory.

But I wish I could comment on the more interesting aspects of this spectacle which have nothing to do with gun control, the psyche of killers, etc.

But alas responsibility calls.

EDIT: Again your rhetorical point is well taken. And well put.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shiny on July 22, 2012, 07:49:50 PM
Anyway I would like to say this, and I'm afraid it will come off as too sanctimonious but I am praying for James, and I do hope that he will come to repentence for his actions. If I was a victim or affected by this tragedy personally I would go and visit him. An act of love surely overrides any sort of retribution that many would like to see. Did not Christ dine with the sinners? Did not Christ also ask to pray for them?

What happened in Aurora was a tragedy, make no mistake about it, but I refuse to want any harm done to him. Lord have mercy on him and on all those that have been and will continually affected by what happend.

BTW I believe Asteriktos pretty much summed up what I was going to say. And I also think we have "evolved" quite a bit from the time of the Fall. Maybe it is a battle in all of us between killing in not killing and I sure have felt many of those emotions in my life. Bah.

I don’t think it is sanctimonious in any way.  Pope John Paul II did this very thing with the man who tried to kill him and we know how that turned out.  I hope this is how we all would act, but I realize it would be one of the most difficult things to do in this life.  I'm not sure I would be able to do this.
And I wouldn't expect anyone to do this and I know how difficult this is.

I bring this up because my co-worker and I were discussing it and how he knew the 6-year who was killed. He wants all sorts of awful things to happen against James, but for what some sort of satisfaction? How is that satisfying? I don't know people are so eager for vegenence but an eye for eye and all that...

EDIT: Wow that is truly remarkable about that Pope John Paul II assassination attempt. I must say my image of him has been negative, but I have enormous respect for him now and his attempted killer as will. What a story, truly.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Bigsinner on July 22, 2012, 10:34:35 PM
Banana peels should be banned!  How many people have been seriously injured due to watching cartoons that use this malicious trick?!!
Does the name Ethel Merman ring a bell?

Talk about a mad, mad, mad, mad post.  :D
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: xariskai on July 23, 2012, 03:40:49 PM
Apparently Holmes painted his hair red-orange, calls himself the Joker, and spends his time spitting at anyone who comes near his cell. Other inmates are reportedly calling him child-killer and talking openly about killing him.

An insanity plea would be hard for the prosecution to counter, I think.

(http://i.imgur.com/B5J2c.jpg)(http://thecount.com/wp-content/uploads/james-holmes-orange.png?adb689)

This fellow was evidently raised Lutheran.

I hope we don't see copycats.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Kerdy on July 23, 2012, 03:56:37 PM


An insanity plea would be hard for the prosecution to counter, I think.

Insanity pleas seldom work, especially with as much preparation as he placed into his end goal.  I predict a minimum sentence of life in prison.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: xariskai on July 23, 2012, 05:57:34 PM


An insanity plea would be hard for the prosecution to counter, I think.

Insanity pleas seldom work, especially with as much preparation as he placed into his end goal.  I predict a minimum sentence of life in prison.
It's a little tougher for prosecutors in Colorado. If memory serves prosecutors in Colorado cannot use professional psychiatrists. Further, the burden of proof in Colorado is upon the prosecution to disprove insanity once that plea is entered. On the other hand, as you noted, the rational preparation would go against the defendant. But he would have a better chance in Colorado than elsewhere, I think.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shiny on July 23, 2012, 05:59:51 PM
If anything we are looking at next year until the final verdict is reached? Because once the insanity plea is dismissed, which I have no idea how long that takes, then the process of the death penalty begins? Which would take even longer considering how ardous the process is.

I'd be very interesting to see how the defense works this out.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: William on July 23, 2012, 06:04:44 PM
Wouldn't mass murder definitely warrant the death penalty in a state that has it?
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shiny on July 23, 2012, 06:08:26 PM
Wouldn't mass murder definitely warrant the death penalty in a state that has it?
No doubt that's where the prosecution will end up, but isn't mass murder an exagerration here?
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: William on July 23, 2012, 06:08:56 PM
Wouldn't mass murder definitely warrant the death penalty in a state that has it?
No doubt that's where the prosecution will end up, but isn't mass murder an exagerration here?

Mass murder is a killing of four or more people at once.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shiny on July 23, 2012, 06:11:12 PM
Wouldn't mass murder definitely warrant the death penalty in a state that has it?
No doubt that's where the prosecution will end up, but isn't mass murder an exagerration here?

Mass murder is a killing of four or more people at once.
I see that's how you define it. My definition of it is more akin to the OKC bombing.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: William on July 23, 2012, 06:34:23 PM
Wouldn't mass murder definitely warrant the death penalty in a state that has it?
No doubt that's where the prosecution will end up, but isn't mass murder an exagerration here?

Mass murder is a killing of four or more people at once.
I see that's how you define it. My definition of it is more akin to the OKC bombing.

That's how law enforcement agencies define it.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: yeshuaisiam on July 23, 2012, 06:39:56 PM
We are about 8 times larger and have a much higher crime rate.

Will you try to guess, why?

It doesn't matter. Every time someone shoots someone else with a gun, we get the argument that guns are bad and should be banned.

Thanks God for the right to carry a gun. It's so important for you that 12 people have recently died to defend it.

Poland has had plenty of mass slaughters. Sheesh.

???

Too bad people in the theater listened to gun control advocates or didn't carry.  They could have stopped this guy.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: ozgeorge on July 23, 2012, 06:51:02 PM
I just made the threa in Politics so we can discuss it there.
Do you think that's going to stop anyone politicizing this tragedy on this thread?
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shiny on July 23, 2012, 07:03:58 PM
Wouldn't mass murder definitely warrant the death penalty in a state that has it?
No doubt that's where the prosecution will end up, but isn't mass murder an exagerration here?

Mass murder is a killing of four or more people at once.
I see that's how you define it. My definition of it is more akin to the OKC bombing.

That's how law enforcement agencies define it.
Mass shooting is a better term for what happened IMO.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: akimori makoto on July 23, 2012, 09:46:48 PM
Wouldn't mass murder definitely warrant the death penalty in a state that has it?
No doubt that's where the prosecution will end up, but isn't mass murder an exagerration here?

Mass murder is a killing of four or more people at once.
I see that's how you define it. My definition of it is more akin to the OKC bombing.

That's how law enforcement agencies define it.
Mass shooting is a better term for what happened IMO.

Brother, in your zeal to show mercy to this soul, do not rush to redefine his sin.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shiny on July 23, 2012, 10:36:49 PM
Wouldn't mass murder definitely warrant the death penalty in a state that has it?
No doubt that's where the prosecution will end up, but isn't mass murder an exagerration here?

Mass murder is a killing of four or more people at once.
I see that's how you define it. My definition of it is more akin to the OKC bombing.

That's how law enforcement agencies define it.
Mass shooting is a better term for what happened IMO.

Brother, in your zeal to show mercy to this soul, do not rush to redefine his sin.
No redefinition here, murder is murder. However my contention is the word mass murder. 25+ I consider to be mass. He injured alot more than killed, I just consider that to be more of a mass shooting.

If that implies I am undermining the crime committed, then I'm sorry that is my mistake and not my intention at all.
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: JamesR on July 24, 2012, 04:08:24 PM
The film may not have lived up to the extremely high standard set by its predecessor, but it was not so bad that one would get the desire to shoot the entire theater up...
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shiny on July 26, 2012, 11:28:08 PM
Victim of the massacre forgives James Holmes and urges others to forgive:
http://global.christianpost.com/news/shooter-forgiveness-christian-victim-encourages-others-to-forgive-james-holmes-78952/

Awesome. Bravo!!
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Tikhon.of.Colorado on July 27, 2012, 03:34:46 AM

Colorado is just insane, now do you see why I want out of this state? Bring on the National Guard to public goings.

I couldn't agree more. 
Title: Re: Colorado Shooting
Post by: Ikonguru on July 28, 2012, 09:51:08 AM
Lord have mercy!

Colorado shooting bombshell: Defense says suspect was psychiatric patient

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2012/0727/Colorado-shooting-bombshell-Defense-says-suspect-was-psychiatric-patient-video

Is this yet another evil event linked to the Pharma Cartel and use of SSRI's?

http://ssristories.com/index.php
Title: Re: Colorado Shooting
Post by: akimori makoto on July 28, 2012, 06:17:54 PM
Is this yet another evil event linked to the Pharma Cartel and use of SSRI's?

Seriously?
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: ZealousZeal on July 29, 2012, 01:02:44 AM
I wonder why I haven't ever heard about such things in Poland and in the USA they happen every two months. Any ideas?

There are way too many variables at play. Population, for one. The USA has about 313 million people, while Poland has about 38. What's that, 8 times larger (population-wise)?
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Shiny on August 02, 2012, 01:27:59 PM
Oh good lord. People in support of Holmes, call themselves Holmsies:
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/james-holmes-tumblr-holmies-shock-internet/story?id=16901096#.UBq5EaOnn6U
Title: Re: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..
Post by: Kerdy on August 02, 2012, 01:32:45 PM
Oh good lord. People in support of Holmes, call themselves Holmsies:
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/james-holmes-tumblr-holmies-shock-internet/story?id=16901096#.UBq5EaOnn6U
Why would anyone support his actions?