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General Forums => Christian News => Topic started by: jah777 on July 17, 2012, 08:31:48 AM

Title: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: jah777 on July 17, 2012, 08:31:48 AM
July 13, 2012

WEST NEW YORK, N.J. -- Hundreds of Catholic faithful and curious onlookers descended on a West New York street Thursday, eager to visit a tree that many are convinced bears an image of Our Lady of Guadalupe, the Virgin Mary as worshipped in Mexico....

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/13/12723230-virgin-mary-image-on-tree-in-new-jersey-crowds-say-yes?lite

Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: LizaSymonenko on July 17, 2012, 08:57:35 AM

Wow!  Folks are desperate to see a "sign".
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: BoredMeeting on July 17, 2012, 11:27:26 AM
My wife once saw a cloud that looked like Bill Clinton.

I keep that in mind when I see stories such as this.
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: JoeS2 on July 17, 2012, 12:27:56 PM
My wife once saw a cloud that looked like Bill Clinton.

I keep that in mind when I see stories such as this.

This is pathetic, I guess you can imagine anything if you look hard enough. I am very familiar with the story of "Our Lady of Guadalupe" and this only lessens and belittles this belief..........Come on folks call it what it is:  The scar from a tree limb cutting.
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: Nicene on July 17, 2012, 01:21:15 PM
It looks more like a place to insert a miniature coffin than anything.
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: Cognomen on July 17, 2012, 01:26:23 PM

Wow!  Folks are desperate to see a "sign".

True, but can you blame them?
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: HabteSelassie on July 17, 2012, 02:13:39 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Y'all cynics stop hating on Our Lady, She can appear where and how and to whomever She likes :)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: JoeS2 on July 17, 2012, 03:01:33 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Y'all cynics stop hating on Our Lady, She can appear where and how and to whomever She likes :)

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Oh, come one, are you serious?  We hate Our Lady, Im sure you are not serious.  Of course she can appear where and how whenever she likes, but this example is the same example as seeing her image in a grilled cheese sandwich, remember that episode??

But really, I have to give The Blessed Mother more credit than this especially since most of her apparitions occur to individuals of great faith and the Fatima appearance was to ONLY 3 children,  the multitudes DID NOT SEE HER only the manifestation of her appearance of the sun as reported in Portugal.

Or for another, on a country road fence post, or a foggy image on a building window, all of which were proven fakes.

This will have some substance if some miracles occur as the result of this happenstance of tree triming along a urban street.  
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: Asteriktos on July 17, 2012, 04:04:32 PM
God works in mysterious ways... and so do people.  :)
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: Benjamin the Red on July 17, 2012, 04:23:06 PM
I love the Blessed Virgin, and I love OL of Gaudalupe, but...c'mon...
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: Babalon on July 17, 2012, 04:53:20 PM
I once met a man who said he was Your Lady.
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: primuspilus on July 17, 2012, 04:55:02 PM
So stupid....so should I sell my kleenex if I sneeze and the Virgin shows up in my kleenex?

This is so retarded.....

PP
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: JoeS2 on July 17, 2012, 05:49:10 PM
I love the Blessed Virgin, and I love OL of Gaudalupe, but...c'mon...

I have a beautiful Icon of Our Lady of Gaudalupe written on a clay tile and was blessed by my OCA Priest. 

Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: dzheremi on July 17, 2012, 06:34:44 PM
My grandmother came to this country from Mexico, and when I was growing up there my hometown was about evenly split between Latinos and Anglos, so I definitely grew up with this stuff about "la virgen", but I agree with the other poster...COM'ON. It's a freaking tree, people. The virgin is not appearing in a tree, or on a tortilla, or on an oil stain under a freeway overpass, or any of the many, many other places people have claimed to have seen here over the years. Quit making belief in St. Mary seem like something for crazy people. Heck, quit BEING crazy people. There is proper devotion to the Theotokos, but this is absolutely something else.
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: JoeS2 on July 17, 2012, 06:38:47 PM
I love the Blessed Virgin, and I love OL of Gaudalupe, but...c'mon...

I have a beautiful Icon of Our Lady of Gaudalupe written on a clay tile and was blessed by my OCA Priest. 



I am married to a beautiful women who is from Mexico. I am fortunate to have her and I thank God everyday for her.  The Food is FANTASTIC!
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: Tallitot on July 23, 2012, 09:31:43 PM
"Perceptions of religious imagery in natural phenomena, sometimes called simulacra, are sightings of images.."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perceptions_of_religious_imagery_in_natural_phenomena#Pareidolia
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: akimori makoto on July 23, 2012, 09:43:16 PM
We had this one at our local beach:

(http://members.optusnet.com.au/mons1/sacred.jpg)
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: Bigsinner on July 24, 2012, 12:15:53 AM
My wife once saw a cloud that looked like Bill Clinton.

I keep that in mind when I see stories such as this.

Reminds me of the old Peanuts comic strip where Lucy, Linus, and Charlie Brown are trying to recognize shapes in clouds (sorry i only have the dialogue and not the actual strip):

Lucy Van Pelt: Aren’t the clouds beautiful? They look like big balls of cotton. I could just lie here all day and watch them drift by. If you use your imagination, you can see lots of things in the cloud’s formations. What do you think you see, Linus?
Linus Van Pelt: Well, those clouds up there look to me look like the map of the British Honduras on the Caribbean. That cloud up there looks a little like the profile of Thomas Eakins, the famous painter and sculptor. And that group of clouds over theregives me the impression of the Stoning of Stephen. I can see the Apostle Paul standing there to one side.
Lucy Van Pelt: Uh huh. That’s very good. What do you see in the clouds, Charlie Brown?
Charlie Brown: Well… I was going to say I saw a duckie and a horsie, but I changed my mind.
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: Father H on July 24, 2012, 12:39:55 AM
I must have seen Our Lady of Guadalupe 100 times as a kid walking around in the neighborhood woods (mostly around neighbor's yards). 

Before we hop on this too hard an hack it to bits, though, if just one of these people turns to the Lord, is it not possible that they see an icon of the Mother of God there?  The guy who cut the tree limb was not trying to be an iconographer, but if the most humble and unintentional icon brings one to faith--have we no mercy?  May the Lord move them to His Faith. 

Hack me to bits instead of hacking these people to bits.  Whether it is OLO Guadalupe or not, I have no doubt that the Theotokos has not chosen this tree as the only place where she will not give intercession to those inclined to the Lord. 

Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: Shiny on July 24, 2012, 01:20:55 AM
I love the Blessed Virgin, and I love OL of Gaudalupe, but...c'mon...

I have a beautiful Icon of Our Lady of Gaudalupe written on a clay tile and was blessed by my OCA Priest. 


Wait isn't OL of G a RC icon?
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: LBK on July 24, 2012, 02:13:15 AM
I love the Blessed Virgin, and I love OL of Gaudalupe, but...c'mon...

I have a beautiful Icon of Our Lady of Gaudalupe written on a clay tile and was blessed by my OCA Priest. 


Wait isn't OL of G a RC icon?

Yes, it is. The image is not part of Orthodox tradition, neither should it be. There are a couple of threads on the subject here.
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: Severian on July 24, 2012, 09:20:28 AM
the Virgin Mary as worshipped in Mexico....
*Cringe*

Now, I obviously know RC's do not worship the Theotokos, but I wish the writer of the article used more appropriate terminology.
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: JoeS2 on July 24, 2012, 10:45:31 AM
the Virgin Mary as worshipped in Mexico....
*Cringe*

Now, I obviously know RC's do not worship the Theotokos, but I wish the writer of the article used more appropriate terminology.

Some folks dont know the difference between Adoration and Veneration.......
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: Νεκτάριος on July 24, 2012, 05:07:12 PM
Of course if this were a myrrh streaming Ikon that had been written by an Orthodox person, nearly everyone would be pretty quick to accept it and proclaim it as proof of God's existence. 
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: William on July 24, 2012, 05:20:00 PM
Of course if this were a myrrh streaming Ikon that had been written by an Orthodox person, nearly everyone would be pretty quick to accept it and proclaim it as proof of God's existence. 

Probably not if it was this obviously fake, but that wouldn't fit your caricature.
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: Agabus on July 24, 2012, 05:51:51 PM
I drove by this the other day on the way to something else:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/16/bleeding-virgin-mary-statue_n_1677729.html

No word yet on whether or not it was actual blood.
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: JoeS2 on July 24, 2012, 06:18:50 PM
The Icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe is in the OCA Cathedral in Mexico City.....
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: Luke on July 24, 2012, 06:39:37 PM
Well, when she is not busy with the tree, she can do a little shopping. :P
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: LBK on July 25, 2012, 04:57:26 AM
Of course if this were a myrrh streaming Ikon that had been written by an Orthodox person, nearly everyone would be pretty quick to accept it and proclaim it as proof of God's existence. 

Which it is not. Red herring.
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: LBK on July 25, 2012, 05:09:16 AM
The Icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe is in the OCA Cathedral in Mexico City.....

A major mistake, like the painting of an icon of the 13th century Roman Catholic saint Anthony of Padua in the Holy Trinity Church in Oxnard, CA.

(http://www.fatheralexander.org/graphics/oxn_church_inside_right.jpg)

It's on the righthand column, the lowest of the three icons. It clearly shows the saint as he is depicted in RC religious art, with distinctive monastic tonsure, brown habit, and bearing the Christ-child.

Neither this image, nor OL of Guadalupe, are part of Orthodox tradition, and the images should have no place in any Orthodox church.

Moral of the story: It might look like an icon, but icon it ain't.
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: Shiny on July 25, 2012, 05:18:31 AM
Beautiful Church though ^^

Surely someone has made a mention of such an error?
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: Νεκτάριος on July 25, 2012, 07:25:04 AM
Of course if this were a myrrh streaming Ikon that had been written by an Orthodox person, nearly everyone would be pretty quick to accept it and proclaim it as proof of God's existence. 

Which it is not. Red herring.

All I am saying is that we should subject ourselves to the same level of scrutiny as we do others.  That isn't a red herring. 
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: Severian on July 25, 2012, 07:29:07 AM
NVM!
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: LBK on July 25, 2012, 07:48:41 AM
Of course if this were a myrrh streaming Ikon that had been written by an Orthodox person, nearly everyone would be pretty quick to accept it and proclaim it as proof of God's existence. 

Which it is not. Red herring.

All I am saying is that we should subject ourselves to the same level of scrutiny as we do others.  That isn't a red herring. 

If more diligent scrutiny was paid to what is painted, there wouldn't be a problem with spiritual and theological confusion when folks see images in their churches which fall short of properly proclaiming and expressing what Orthodoxy teaches and espouses.

The presence of non-Orthodox images in churches and their bookstores is just as objectionable and wrong as inserting non-Orthodox hymns into the Divine Liturgy.
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: ozgeorge on July 25, 2012, 08:01:10 AM
Moral of the story: It might look like an icon, but icon it ain't.
An icon is an image. Period.
Do a Google image search of the Greek word for icon ( εικονα ) and see for yourself. Now search the Greek term for "Buddhist icon" ( βουδιστή εικονα ) and see what comes up.
A photograph is an icon. The Mona Lisa is an icon. The Reclining Buddha is an icon. Shiva Nataraja is an icon.
It's just that none of these are Orthodox Christian Icons.
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: LBK on July 25, 2012, 08:11:37 AM
Moral of the story: It might look like an icon, but icon it ain't.
An icon is an image. Period.
Do a Google image search of the Greek word for icon ( εικονα ) and see for yourself. Now search the Greek term for "Buddhist icon" ( βουδιστή εικονα ) and see what comes up.
A photograph is an icon. The Mona Lisa is an icon. The Reclining Buddha is an icon. Shiva Nataraja is an icon.
It's just that none of these are Orthodox Christian Icons.


Another irrelevance, ozgeorge. We are talking about religious imagery (Guadalupe, etc) which is mistaken for proper Orthodox iconography because of its presence from time to time in Orthodox churches.

A Greek-speaker easily grasps the context of the word eikona from its use. Using the word aghia to precede eikona removes all doubt as to what sort of image is being referred to.
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: ozgeorge on July 25, 2012, 08:18:59 AM
Surely someone has made a mention of such an error?
Many times.
This is Holy Trinity Church in Oxnard CA.
It was under ROCOR, but in the various schisms which effected ROCOR in recent decades, it split away and is currently, I believe, under the Synod in Resistance.
The offending icon was a mistake by the neophyte convert iconographer who thought his patron saint was Anthony of Padua rather than Anthony the Great.
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: ozgeorge on July 25, 2012, 08:25:06 AM
Using the word aghia to precede eikona removes all doubt as to what sort of image is being referred to.
Really? I'm a Greek-speaker who attends a purely Greek-speaking church, and we never call it an "aghia eikona", we just call it an "eikona", which is what we also call the images on the evening news on TV.
But I guess you should know.
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: LBK on July 25, 2012, 08:32:24 AM
Quote
The offending icon was a mistake by the neophyte convert iconographer who thought his patron saint was Anthony of Padua rather than Anthony the Great.

I find it very, very difficult to believe that someone as green as this was given a commission to paint a church, or even part of it. Really? To whom was he praying to as he was painting the "icon"? What podlinnik did he use as a reference as to how to paint St Anthony? Was he working alone, or with others? If the latter, why didn't they pull him up on the error?

Nope, don't buy that story.
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: LBK on July 25, 2012, 08:33:17 AM
Using the word aghia to precede eikona removes all doubt as to what sort of image is being referred to.
Really? I'm a Greek-speaker who attends a purely Greek-speaking church, and we never call it an "aghia eikona", we just call it an "eikona", which is what we also call the images on the evening news on TV.
But I guess you should know.

Again, you are missing what I have written. Go back and read my post again on context.
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: ozgeorge on July 25, 2012, 08:37:30 AM
Go back and read my post again on context.
You didn't write a post on context. You wrote one on your opinions of what is an isn't an icon.
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: LBK on July 25, 2012, 08:39:52 AM
Go back and read my post again on context.
You didn't write a post on context. You wrote one on your opinions of what is an isn't an icon.


Ahem. Post #35:

Quote
A Greek-speaker easily grasps the context of the word eikona from its use. Using the word aghia to precede eikona removes all doubt as to what sort of image is being referred to.
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: ozgeorge on July 25, 2012, 08:43:44 AM
To which I replied:
Using the word aghia to precede eikona removes all doubt as to what sort of image is being referred to.
Really? I'm a Greek-speaker who attends a purely Greek-speaking church, and we never call it an "aghia eikona", we just call it an "eikona", which is what we also call the images on the evening news on TV.
But I guess you should know.
Meaning: "Nobody actually does this LBK, so what's your point?"
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: LBK on July 25, 2012, 08:49:12 AM
To which I replied:
Using the word aghia to precede eikona removes all doubt as to what sort of image is being referred to.
Really? I'm a Greek-speaker who attends a purely Greek-speaking church, and we never call it an "aghia eikona", we just call it an "eikona", which is what we also call the images on the evening news on TV.
But I guess you should know.
Meaning: "Nobody ozgeorge knows actually does this LBK, so what's your point?"

Fixed it for you.

I've heard many, many Greek speakers, both here, and in Greece, and in written materials, refer to icons as aghies eikones about as often as just eikones. Russians are the same, they preface ikona or obraz with svyataya quite frequently.

Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: ZealousZeal on July 25, 2012, 10:23:34 AM
Before we hop on this too hard an hack it to bits, though, if just one of these people turns to the Lord, is it not possible that they see an icon of the Mother of God there?  The guy who cut the tree limb was not trying to be an iconographer, but if the most humble and unintentional icon brings one to faith--have we no mercy?  May the Lord move them to His Faith. 

Hack me to bits instead of hacking these people to bits.  Whether it is OLO Guadalupe or not, I have no doubt that the Theotokos has not chosen this tree as the only place where she will not give intercession to those inclined to the Lord. 

I agree, Father.
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: podkarpatska on July 25, 2012, 11:26:50 AM
Before we hop on this too hard an hack it to bits, though, if just one of these people turns to the Lord, is it not possible that they see an icon of the Mother of God there?  The guy who cut the tree limb was not trying to be an iconographer, but if the most humble and unintentional icon brings one to faith--have we no mercy?  May the Lord move them to His Faith.  

Hack me to bits instead of hacking these people to bits.  Whether it is OLO Guadalupe or not, I have no doubt that the Theotokos has not chosen this tree as the only place where she will not give intercession to those inclined to the Lord.  

I agree, Father.

Amen. Week after week  for the past ten months, hundreds are flocking to an Orthodox Church in Northeast PA to bring witness to and honor towards the Theotokas. By now it is estimated that over 25,000 have venerated her image which is shedding myrrh. What is significant is that most of them would never have stepped foot in that particular church but for this icon. People from the BCC, OCA, ROCOR , UOC, UGGC, RCC - even some Protestants - and elsewhere in the region who would have crossed the street before EVER entering that Church (the community had one of the most bitterly divisive series of schisms during the 20th century) have come and respectfully paid their respects to the Mother of God. Father is spot on here.
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: jah777 on July 25, 2012, 01:53:17 PM
I find it very, very difficult to believe that someone as green as this was given a commission to paint a church, or even part of it. Really? To whom was he praying to as he was painting the "icon"?


I once attended an OCA cathedral whose iconostasis was painted by a Protestant, sadly enough.  Hopefully such a thing is extremely rare.
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: ozgeorge on July 25, 2012, 05:01:08 PM
I find it very, very difficult to believe that someone as green as this was given a commission to paint a church, or even part of it. Really? To whom was he praying to as he was painting the "icon"?


I once attended an OCA cathedral whose iconostasis was painted by a Protestant, sadly enough.  Hopefully such a thing is extremely rare.
I hope you didn't venerate them, because they can't possibly be svyataya ikona   ;).
Title: Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe appears on a tree?
Post by: HabteSelassie on July 25, 2012, 06:04:00 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I must have seen Our Lady of Guadalupe 100 times as a kid walking around in the neighborhood woods (mostly around neighbor's yards). 

Before we hop on this too hard an hack it to bits, though, if just one of these people turns to the Lord, is it not possible that they see an icon of the Mother of God there?  The guy who cut the tree limb was not trying to be an iconographer, but if the most humble and unintentional icon brings one to faith--have we no mercy?  May the Lord move them to His Faith. 

Hack me to bits instead of hacking these people to bits.  Whether it is OLO Guadalupe or not, I have no doubt that the Theotokos has not chosen this tree as the only place where she will not give intercession to those inclined to the Lord. 



Quote
"..These are Her mountains and skies that she radiates, and through history's rivers of blood she regenerates, and like the Sun disappears only to reappear, she is eternally near.."
Thank you father! Sometimes folks get so caught up in their stone throwing, the forget they are hurting the very innocent and sincere people who may be flocking towards this tree to experience Our Lady.  I experience Our Lady all the time, I wouldn't discount one person's experience over another! There are billions of trees in the world to be sure, and millions more in New York City, and yet for whatever reason folks seem to be experience the Virgin at this one, why should we so cynical? Instead, shouldn't we say Glory be to God that folks are soul-searching in the first place?  In all reality, this tree incident is no more or less reasonable or sensible than any Orthodox Icon streaming myrrh, the difference is a sense of cultural bias and chauvenism which permeates this thread suggesting that one appiration of the Virgin is more legitimate or truer than another, when in all actually, all are equally matters of faith. As I said before, Our Lady is free to appear to whomever and however She wants too :)

stay blessed,
habte selassie