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Moderated Forums => Free-For-All => Religious Topics => Topic started by: SDMPNS on July 07, 2012, 08:48:20 PM

Title: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases Official Statement about Met. Jonah's Resignation
Post by: SDMPNS on July 07, 2012, 08:48:20 PM
It has been reported on the Yahoo Orthodox Forum and on the MOnomahkos blog that Met.Jonah has resigned..any truth to this?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: biro on July 07, 2012, 09:01:46 PM
Whah?  ???  :o  :'( :'(

I looked on Google and all the news they had was about when he addressed the ACNA conference. Nothing newer than that.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 07, 2012, 09:14:44 PM
There were rumors in 2011 that he'd resigned, they weren't true...

Monomakhos, a private blog from a man who seems kinda anti-episcopacy anyway. Yahoo Orthodox forum, I would trust it about as much as this forum, CF or Monachos. Unless something shows up on OCA.org I wouldn't trust it.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: kijabeboy03 on July 08, 2012, 03:04:25 PM
I was just reading through some of the comments on posts at Monomakhos - it's truly incredible the politicized sleeze people hurl at the clergy and one another there. Sounds more like a bunch of Southern Baptists than Orthodox Christians...
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Cognomen on July 08, 2012, 03:33:37 PM
Do tell.  I was talking with Marcy yesterday, whose friend Fran's husband works with someone who has attended a parish in Poughkeepsie, NY, where Met. Jonah once visited.  He told Fran's husband that he thought that Met. Jonah was supposed to return for another visit, but that it never happened.  Now Fran's husband isn't all that interested, but Fran herself is making some calls and has done some blogging.  She thinks, at least from what Marcy reported, that this cancellation could be due to Met. Jonah resigning.  As for the reasons? Oh my, so much fun speculation. While Marcy figured it was probably due to health or stress, Fran thinks it's probably due to pressure from some of our more aggressive and influential blogists, who've really pushed him on some issues relating to all sorts of things.   This is so exciting!!!! 
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: livefreeordie on July 08, 2012, 07:52:19 PM
This from Rod Dreher.  http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/metropolitan-jonah-ousted/

Where there is smoke there is fire, things are going to be interesting.  So disheartened by the lack of effective leadership anywhere in American Bishops of any jurisdiction.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 08, 2012, 08:02:07 PM
There were rumors in 2011 that he'd resigned, they weren't true...

Monomakhos, a private blog from a man who seems kinda anti-episcopacy anyway. Yahoo Orthodox forum, I would trust it about as much as this forum, CF or Monachos. Unless something shows up on OCA.org I wouldn't trust it.
Agreed. Until such time that we receive official word from OCA.org, all we're doing here is engaging in baseless rumor mongering and gossip.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: kijabeboy03 on July 08, 2012, 08:02:31 PM
...or a couple of people smoking something. Given that Michalopulos and Dreher are fueling this, I'm guessing the latter :-).

This from Rod Dreher.  http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/metropolitan-jonah-ousted/

Where there is smoke there is fire, things are going to be interesting.  So disheartened by the lack of effective leadership anywhere in American Bishops of any jurisdiction.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Cognomen on July 08, 2012, 10:40:18 PM
Until such time that we receive official word from OCA.org, all we're doing here is engaging in baseless rumor mongering and gossip.

Precisely!  But people clearly live for this dross.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Maria on July 08, 2012, 11:57:44 PM
Until such time that we receive official word from OCA.org, all we're doing here is engaging in baseless rumor mongering and gossip.

Precisely!  But people clearly live for this dross soap opera comedy.

Fixed it for you (FIFY).

Ugh. I agree with you. This whole scenario is pathetic.

It would be more gross if Bishop Benjamin were to become the new Metropolitan.
I knew him when he was a deacon. He had a beautiful voice, but he has changed.

I respect Metropolitan Jonah, and I hope he has not resigned. Lord have mercy.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: livefreeordie on July 09, 2012, 12:10:53 AM
http://oca.org/

In a letter addressed to the members of the Holy Synod of Bishops dated Friday, July 6, 2012, His Beatitude, Metropolitan Jonah tendered his resignation as Primate of the Orthodox Church in America.

His Beatitude composed and signed the letter at his residence in Washington, DC, in the presence of Archpriest John Jillions, OCA Chancellor. ...

This is sad.  Lord have mercy on our Bishops.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: biro on July 09, 2012, 12:14:48 AM
Lord have mercy!   :'(
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on July 09, 2012, 12:51:21 AM
"As per your unanimous request, as conveyed to me by Chancellor Fr. John Jillions, I hereby tender my resignation as Primate of the Orthodox Church in America, and humbly request another Episcopal assignment. ...<sic>... and beg forgiveness for however I have offended you,"

 What was/is the Synod's concern about Metropolitan JONAH?  How long has this been going on?  This is so sad and disappointing...  :(
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 09, 2012, 01:14:51 AM
"As per your unanimous request, as conveyed to me by Chancellor Fr. John Jillions, I hereby tender my resignation as Primate of the Orthodox Church in America, and humbly request another Episcopal assignment. ...<sic>... and beg forgiveness for however I have offended you,"

 What was/is the Synod's concern about Metropolitan JONAH?  How long has this been going on?  This is so sad and disappointing...  :(
I don't think it's exactly news that the Synod has had concerns about His Beatitude's leadership, since we've heard off and on of disputes between His Beatitude and the rest of the Synod through the last few years. OCA.org has not exactly been silent on this. As I read the letter posted in this article, ISTM that everyone on the Synod, His Beatitude included, has come to the realization that he just doesn't have the right personality for the position of Metropolitan of the OCA, a position he never requested.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 09, 2012, 01:18:56 AM
Some real info on the matter, from the OCA:

http://oca.org/news/headline-news/metropolitan-jonah-tenders-resignation
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 09, 2012, 01:37:10 AM
"As per your unanimous request, as conveyed to me by Chancellor Fr. John Jillions, I hereby tender my resignation as Primate of the Orthodox Church in America, and humbly request another Episcopal assignment. ...<sic>... and beg forgiveness for however I have offended you,"

 What was/is the Synod's concern about Metropolitan JONAH?  How long has this been going on?  This is so sad and disappointing...  :(
I don't think it's exactly news that the Synod has had concerns about His Beatitude's leadership, since we've heard off and on of disputes between His Beatitude and the rest of the Synod through the last few years. OCA.org has not exactly been silent on this. As I read the letter posted in this article, ISTM that everyone on the Synod, His Beatitude included, has come to the realization that he just doesn't have the right personality for the position of Metropolitan of the OCA, a position he never requested.

Very true, there are still members of the "old guard" left, but that should be left to the private section of the site, not for news.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 09, 2012, 01:46:04 AM
"As per your unanimous request, as conveyed to me by Chancellor Fr. John Jillions, I hereby tender my resignation as Primate of the Orthodox Church in America, and humbly request another Episcopal assignment. ...<sic>... and beg forgiveness for however I have offended you,"

 What was/is the Synod's concern about Metropolitan JONAH?  How long has this been going on?  This is so sad and disappointing...  :(
I don't think it's exactly news that the Synod has had concerns about His Beatitude's leadership, since we've heard off and on of disputes between His Beatitude and the rest of the Synod through the last few years. OCA.org has not exactly been silent on this. As I read the letter posted in this article, ISTM that everyone on the Synod, His Beatitude included, has come to the realization that he just doesn't have the right personality for the position of Metropolitan of the OCA, a position he never requested.

Very true, there are still members of the "old guard" left, but that should be left to the private section of the site, not for news.
I'm not sure, though, that it's safe to reduce this to just a conflict between His Beatitude and the "Old Guard". The synodal decision to ask His Beatitude to step down was unanimous.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Benjamin the Red on July 09, 2012, 02:12:29 AM
The synodal decision to ask His Beatitude to step down was unanimous.

And this surprises me. I thought the Synod and the Metropolitan had worked through their big issues after His Beatitude took a leave of absence about a year and a half ago. The candid speaking at the last AAC seemed to affirm that. Now there's a unanimous request for his resignation?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: kijabeboy03 on July 09, 2012, 06:08:14 AM
Apparently the issues persisted and they felt things were severe enough that they needed to request his resignation :-(.

The synodal decision to ask His Beatitude to step down was unanimous.

And this surprises me. I thought the Synod and the Metropolitan had worked through their big issues after His Beatitude took a leave of absence about a year and a half ago. The candid speaking at the last AAC seemed to affirm that. Now there's a unanimous request for his resignation?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: mike on July 09, 2012, 06:36:28 AM
Sad.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Gorazd on July 09, 2012, 07:16:53 AM
For those here who are members of OCA parishes: What do the faithful in your parish think about this issue? Is this all just something going on in the Synod, or were the laypeople and parish clergy also discontent with Met. Jonah's leadership? Would they prefer to keep him?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Orthodox11 on July 09, 2012, 07:43:31 AM
Sad. I met the Metropolitan a while back and was thoroughly impressed. I wish more were like him.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: ICXCNIKA on July 09, 2012, 08:21:22 AM
I support the Holy Synod's decision. It is sad that it took this long. They gave him multiple chances and a great deal of support. I am sure he is a nice guy but he isn't cut out for Metropolitan. He should be reassigned back to the monastery he founded where his ministry can flourish.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: primuspilus on July 09, 2012, 08:28:31 AM
Did he not mismanage money enough for them?

PP
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: orthonorm on July 09, 2012, 08:35:26 AM
For those here who are members of OCA parishes: What do the faithful in your parish think about this issue? Is this all just something going on in the Synod, or were the laypeople and parish clergy also discontent with Met. Jonah's leadership? Would they prefer to keep him?

I am not sure this is the place for this.

Perhaps not even in the private forums as much would be mere gossip and rumor.

Just be happy you don't know the half of what has gone on.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: augustin717 on July 09, 2012, 08:38:33 AM
For those here who are members of OCA parishes: What do the faithful in your parish think about this issue? Is this all just something going on in the Synod, or were the laypeople and parish clergy also discontent with Met. Jonah's leadership? Would they prefer to keep him?
From my limited experience: there are those thatmourn him as if it's a presage of the world's ending, and there are those that are glad; he was really naive though thinking that he can just dive head in into the whole "culture-war" the way he did, when his church wasn't on the same page as him by and large. But with friends like Dreher, a metropolitan hardly needs enemies.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: mike on July 09, 2012, 08:39:01 AM
Who will succeed him?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: AWR on July 09, 2012, 08:57:55 AM
For those here who are members of OCA parishes: What do the faithful in your parish think about this issue? Is this all just something going on in the Synod, or were the laypeople and parish clergy also discontent with Met. Jonah's leadership? Would they prefer to keep him?

As the Orthodox Church is universal, it is just as much local.  At least that is how it is in my parish.  Of course we care about the primate of our Church, but he is a bit removed.  It is our own parish and diocese, our own bishop and priests that have an impact on us.  We are in the Diocese of New York and New Jersey, this was once the diocese of the primate of the OCA, and I guess the Metropolia, but now that is Washington DC. 

It seemed to be a relief when we became smaller.  We, as a parish, do not even concern ourselves with the Diocese of Washington, it is as if the OCA is there now, and not here.  For the most part, the bishop who is Primate, is more important to the other bishops of the OCA, and to the people in Virginia, Maryland, and Delaware, than to the people of other diocese.

I do not know why the bishops asked His Beatitude to step down, but it is their right and duty to do so if needed. It is not that we are people with our heads in the sand, so to speak, it is that there are more important matters for our parish.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Monk Vasyl on July 09, 2012, 09:03:05 AM
Who will succeed him?

There will be a need for a special All American Council, just like we must have a special sobor to elect a new metropolitan.  In the mean time the eldest bishop, usually, will assume the role of Locum Tenens of the OCA till said election. 
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: podkarpatska on July 09, 2012, 09:07:30 AM
For those here who are members of OCA parishes: What do the faithful in your parish think about this issue? Is this all just something going on in the Synod, or were the laypeople and parish clergy also discontent with Met. Jonah's leadership? Would they prefer to keep him?

As the Orthodox Church is universal, it is just as much local.  At least that is how it is in my parish.  Of course we care about the primate of our Church, but he is a bit removed.  It is our own parish and diocese, our own bishop and priests that have an impact on us.  We are in the Diocese of New York and New Jersey, this was once the diocese of the primate of the OCA, and I guess the Metropolia, but now that is Washington DC. 

It seemed to be a relief when we became smaller.  We, as a parish, do not even concern ourselves with the Diocese of Washington, it is as if the OCA is there now, and not here.  For the most part, the bishop who is Primate, is more important to the other bishops of the OCA, and to the people in Virginia, Maryland, and Delaware, than to the people of other diocese.

I do not know why the bishops asked His Beatitude to step down, but it is their right and duty to do so if needed. It is not that we are people with our heads in the sand, so to speak, it is that there are more important matters for our parish.


A good calming voice. Bishops are people and issues with them are nothing new in the Church. Rather than proclaim 'sturm und drang' like Dreher and others, we should all pray for the Bishop and for all of the faithful, clergy and OCA that they may find the strength and wisdom to work through this situation. The sun will come out, the night will fall, people will go on and the Church will prevail as promised by Christ Himself.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 09, 2012, 09:32:27 AM
For those here who are members of OCA parishes: What do the faithful in your parish think about this issue? Is this all just something going on in the Synod, or were the laypeople and parish clergy also discontent with Met. Jonah's leadership? Would they prefer to keep him?
I don't know that we've had enough time yet to let this all soak in.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 09, 2012, 09:36:17 AM
Did he not mismanage money enough for them?
That's just plain rude. We don't know yet why the Synod requested His Beatitude's resignation. Until then it's best we refrain from asking such snarky questions.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: primuspilus on July 09, 2012, 09:37:46 AM
Did he not mismanage money enough for them?
That's just plain rude. We don't know yet why the Synod requested His Beatitude's resignation. Until then it's best we refrain from asking such snarky questions.
You're right. I should not have said that. my apologies.

PP
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 09, 2012, 09:43:24 AM
Did he not mismanage money enough for them?
That's just plain rude. We don't know yet why the Synod requested His Beatitude's resignation. Until then it's best we refrain from asking such snarky questions.
You're right. I should not have said that. my apologies.
Thank you. :)
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Marc1152 on July 09, 2012, 10:00:36 AM
http://oca.org/news/headline-news/metropolitan-jonah-tenders-resignation

July 8, 2012

Metropolitan Jonah tenders resignation

SYOSSET, NY [OCA]

In a letter addressed to the members of the Holy Synod of Bishops dated
Friday, July 6, 2012, His Beatitude, Metropolitan Jonah tendered his
resignation as Primate of the Orthodox Church in America.

Post editted for copyright rules - MK

Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: ialmisry on July 09, 2012, 10:12:49 AM
For those here who are members of OCA parishes: What do the faithful in your parish think about this issue? Is this all just something going on in the Synod, or were the laypeople and parish clergy also discontent with Met. Jonah's leadership? Would they prefer to keep him?
From my limited experience: there are those thatmourn him as if it's a presage of the world's ending, and there are those that are glad; he was really naive though thinking that he can just dive head in into the whole "culture-war" the way he did, when his church wasn't on the same page as him by and large. But with friends like Dreher, a metropolitan hardly needs enemies.
you have anything beyond your admitted "limited experience"?

You're right about the mourners and those who rejoice, btw.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: mike on July 09, 2012, 10:16:19 AM
From Byzantine, TX (http://byztex.blogspot.com/2012/07/met-jonah-of-oca-has-resigned.html): "Some people are putting two and two together and believe that a delay in the Diocese of the South's episcopal search can be tied not only to the re-vetting of Fr. Gerasim, but also to Met. Jonah's impending resignation."
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: ialmisry on July 09, 2012, 10:36:57 AM
From Byzantine, TX (http://byztex.blogspot.com/2012/07/met-jonah-of-oca-has-resigned.html): "Some people are putting two and two together and believe that a delay in the Diocese of the South's episcopal search can be tied not only to the re-vetting of Fr. Gerasim, but also to Met. Jonah's impending resignation."
Ironic, given the circumstances of his consecration, then election, and then the Sunday of Orthodoxy speech heard round the world.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Benjamin the Red on July 09, 2012, 11:02:10 AM
From Byzantine, TX (http://byztex.blogspot.com/2012/07/met-jonah-of-oca-has-resigned.html): "Some people are putting two and two together and believe that a delay in the Diocese of the South's episcopal search can be tied not only to the re-vetting of Fr. Gerasim, but also to Met. Jonah's impending resignation."

Quite possible. Met. Jonah was Vladyka Dmitri's picked successor, and we in the south are rather favorable towards him. Perhaps He will be our hierarch after all.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: FatherGiryus on July 09, 2012, 11:04:54 AM
Dear Augustin,

If you carefully comb through the controversies surrounding Met. Jonah, you will see the 'culture war' was by far a small bump in His Beatitude's road as First Hierarch.

The main problems he encountered came from speeches in which he offended the Church of Constantinople in an unpolitical way, then later called the Tomos of Autocephaly of the OCA into question by essentially implying it could be given up in favor of an arrangement with the Episcopal Assembly.  In both cases, the Holy Synod was caught off-guard, since these were major issues (inter-Orthodox relations and autocephaly itself) that the HS has a role in.

His Beatitude had a habit of musing in public, which is never something that someone of such consequence should do.  After all, when he speaks, he speaks not for himself but the entire OCA.  It appears that he never entirely grasped the idea that the OCA is a large ship and that you can't jerk the wheel this way or that before you end up breaking the rudder.

This was all the more magnified when he agreed to take a leave of absence, then 'un-agreed' after the meeting with his bishops.  His pattern of quick decisions that led him to even quicker changes of mind really made working with him difficult.  But, it was his ignoring of the other bishops that ultimately did him in.  They tried to explain to him why he could not simply move the whole operation of the OCA to Washington, DC, during a true financial crisis, and he never seemed to accept the advice.  He tried to jerk the wheel, and ended up in conflict with his own administration.

Then, there was his unfortunate involvement with Fr. Joseph Fester that was uncovered by the leaked emails posted on OCANews.  I'm sure you don't want to wade into that controversy here.

In the end, Met. Jonah is a good man, but very clearly not cut out for the job.  This is not an insult, not every monk is material for such an office.  It just did not work out.  The difficulty of the OCA is that it has had a string of bad choices, which is really painful when you are a young church.  Let's hope the next metropolitan is a better fit.



For those here who are members of OCA parishes: What do the faithful in your parish think about this issue? Is this all just something going on in the Synod, or were the laypeople and parish clergy also discontent with Met. Jonah's leadership? Would they prefer to keep him?
From my limited experience: there are those thatmourn him as if it's a presage of the world's ending, and there are those that are glad; he was really naive though thinking that he can just dive head in into the whole "culture-war" the way he did, when his church wasn't on the same page as him by and large. But with friends like Dreher, a metropolitan hardly needs enemies.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: primuspilus on July 09, 2012, 04:58:24 PM
Holy Synod appoints Archbishop Nathaniel Locum Tenens, Bishop Michael Temporary Administrator. The oca's website does mention Met. Jonah's request, but doesn't say anything else.

PP
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: FormerReformer on July 09, 2012, 07:07:41 PM
Dear Augustin,

If you carefully comb through the controversies surrounding Met. Jonah, you will see the 'culture war' was by far a small bump in His Beatitude's road as First Hierarch.

The main problems he encountered came from speeches in which he offended the Church of Constantinople in an unpolitical way, then later called the Tomos of Autocephaly of the OCA into question by essentially implying it could be given up in favor of an arrangement with the Episcopal Assembly. In both cases, the Holy Synod was caught off-guard, since these were major issues (inter-Orthodox relations and autocephaly itself) that the HS has a role in.

His Beatitude had a habit of musing in public, which is never something that someone of such consequence should do.  After all, when he speaks, he speaks not for himself but the entire OCA.  It appears that he never entirely grasped the idea that the OCA is a large ship and that you can't jerk the wheel this way or that before you end up breaking the rudder.

This was all the more magnified when he agreed to take a leave of absence, then 'un-agreed' after the meeting with his bishops.  His pattern of quick decisions that led him to even quicker changes of mind really made working with him difficult.  But, it was his ignoring of the other bishops that ultimately did him in.  They tried to explain to him why he could not simply move the whole operation of the OCA to Washington, DC, during a true financial crisis, and he never seemed to accept the advice.  He tried to jerk the wheel, and ended up in conflict with his own administration.

Then, there was his unfortunate involvement with Fr. Joseph Fester that was uncovered by the leaked emails posted on OCANews.  I'm sure you don't want to wade into that controversy here.

In the end, Met. Jonah is a good man, but very clearly not cut out for the job.  This is not an insult, not every monk is material for such an office.  It just did not work out.  The difficulty of the OCA is that it has had a string of bad choices, which is really painful when you are a young church.  Let's hope the next metropolitan is a better fit.



For those here who are members of OCA parishes: What do the faithful in your parish think about this issue? Is this all just something going on in the Synod, or were the laypeople and parish clergy also discontent with Met. Jonah's leadership? Would they prefer to keep him?
From my limited experience: there are those thatmourn him as if it's a presage of the world's ending, and there are those that are glad; he was really naive though thinking that he can just dive head in into the whole "culture-war" the way he did, when his church wasn't on the same page as him by and large. But with friends like Dreher, a metropolitan hardly needs enemies.

And now the Synod has shown why Metropolitan Jonah was right and that the Tomos is worth a roll of used toilet paper in the face of possible American unity. We really don't have a mature enough church in this nation for autocephaly, and won't until after a century or so of actually having a united American Church.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: username! on July 09, 2012, 07:09:24 PM
If part of the heat he did take was because he was interested in the Chambessey agreement than kudos to Met. Jonah.  If the church is to move forward in the Americas in accordance with the signed by all the leaders of autochephalous churches than one will have to comply with the wishes of the church versus going it alone and being left out.  I wouldn't want his job and I commend him for taking the reigns.  
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: username! on July 09, 2012, 07:11:55 PM
You need to realise that the chambessey agreement (signed by all of the leaders of autochephalous churches, oca being represented by the MP) from what I gather the church in the Americas will be one that is autonomous under the EP.  Don't kill the messenger.  I'm just saying what I've been told.  I wouldn't want to be a bishop let alone be a metropolitan.  Anyone that takes the job has more brass in them than I have.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: MarkosC on July 09, 2012, 10:48:24 PM
Sad news.  Just out of curiousity, how common is the deposition of a primate in history?  I've read a reasonalbe amount, and the impression I get is that it's extraordinary and often either the result of misconduct or (more often) political factors, e.g. the case of EP Arsenios and Emperor Michael Palaeologos.   

(I'm not accusing Metropolitan Jonah or the Synod of anything, just making a statement)
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: ialmisry on July 09, 2012, 10:53:19 PM
You need to realise that the chambessey agreement (signed by all of the leaders of autochephalous churches, oca being represented by the MP)

no, the MP did not represent the OCA.
from what I gather the church in the Americas will be one that is autonomous under the EP.  Don't kill the messenger.  I'm just saying what I've been told.  I wouldn't want to be a bishop let alone be a metropolitan.  Anyone that takes the job has more brass in them than I have.
That was the Phanar's plan, but things have not gone according to plan.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: ialmisry on July 09, 2012, 10:55:08 PM
Sad news.  Just out of curiousity, how common is the deposition of a primate in history?  I've read a reasonalbe amount, and the impression I get is that it's extraordinary and often either the result of misconduct or (more often) political factors, e.g. the case of EP Arsenios and Emperor Michael Palaeologos.   

(I'm not accusing Metropolitan Jonah or the Synod of anything, just making a statement)
Quite common, unfortunately.  During the Turkokratia, for instance, the chair of St. Andrew at Constantinople was a musical chair.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: ialmisry on July 09, 2012, 10:56:37 PM
Dear Augustin,

If you carefully comb through the controversies surrounding Met. Jonah, you will see the 'culture war' was by far a small bump in His Beatitude's road as First Hierarch.

The main problems he encountered came from speeches in which he offended the Church of Constantinople in an unpolitical way, then later called the Tomos of Autocephaly of the OCA into question by essentially implying it could be given up in favor of an arrangement with the Episcopal Assembly. In both cases, the Holy Synod was caught off-guard, since these were major issues (inter-Orthodox relations and autocephaly itself) that the HS has a role in.

His Beatitude had a habit of musing in public, which is never something that someone of such consequence should do.  After all, when he speaks, he speaks not for himself but the entire OCA.  It appears that he never entirely grasped the idea that the OCA is a large ship and that you can't jerk the wheel this way or that before you end up breaking the rudder.

This was all the more magnified when he agreed to take a leave of absence, then 'un-agreed' after the meeting with his bishops.  His pattern of quick decisions that led him to even quicker changes of mind really made working with him difficult.  But, it was his ignoring of the other bishops that ultimately did him in.  They tried to explain to him why he could not simply move the whole operation of the OCA to Washington, DC, during a true financial crisis, and he never seemed to accept the advice.  He tried to jerk the wheel, and ended up in conflict with his own administration.

Then, there was his unfortunate involvement with Fr. Joseph Fester that was uncovered by the leaked emails posted on OCANews.  I'm sure you don't want to wade into that controversy here.

In the end, Met. Jonah is a good man, but very clearly not cut out for the job.  This is not an insult, not every monk is material for such an office.  It just did not work out.  The difficulty of the OCA is that it has had a string of bad choices, which is really painful when you are a young church.  Let's hope the next metropolitan is a better fit.



For those here who are members of OCA parishes: What do the faithful in your parish think about this issue? Is this all just something going on in the Synod, or were the laypeople and parish clergy also discontent with Met. Jonah's leadership? Would they prefer to keep him?
From my limited experience: there are those thatmourn him as if it's a presage of the world's ending, and there are those that are glad; he was really naive though thinking that he can just dive head in into the whole "culture-war" the way he did, when his church wasn't on the same page as him by and large. But with friends like Dreher, a metropolitan hardly needs enemies.

And now the Synod has shown why Metropolitan Jonah was right and that the Tomos is worth a roll of used toilet paper in the face of possible American unity. We really don't have a mature enough church in this nation for autocephaly, and won't until after a century or so of actually having a united American Church.
LOL.  You should see all the "maturity" in the Mother Churches.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: MarkosC on July 09, 2012, 11:20:33 PM
Sad news.  Just out of curiousity, how common is the deposition of a primate in history?  I've read a reasonalbe amount, and the impression I get is that it's extraordinary and often either the result of misconduct or (more often) political factors, e.g. the case of EP Arsenios and Emperor Michael Palaeologos.   

(I'm not accusing Metropolitan Jonah or the Synod of anything, just making a statement)
Quite common, unfortunately.  During the Turkokratia, for instance, the chair of St. Andrew at Constantinople was a musical chair.

Oh, right. To say nothing of the Patriarchates under the EP at the time.......  :(
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Seraphim98 on July 09, 2012, 11:38:58 PM
In my parish I know of no one who does not hold His (former?) Beatitude in the highest regard.  We rejoiced when he was consecrated in Dallas, and though saddened by the loss we rejoiced when he was chosen as Metropolitan. We supported him in his course corrections within the OCA and his stance against ecclesial bullying from some quarters of the Orthodox world.  We knew he had a steep learning curve and we knew he might make the occasional impolitic stumble or gaff…it goes with the territory of what he was called to do.  In this situation I am reminded of St. Athanasius driven from his patriarch throne by detractors who were later proven enemies of the Church.

Had things not gone as they have these past few days, just speaking for myself, I had high hopes that Fr. Gerasim might be consecrated and sent to the Diocese of the South (I still hope he is consecrated and given a diocese in the OCA), but things being as they are…I and so far as I know…the rest of those in the OCA in MS…certainly the vast majority here would rejoice to see Met. Jonah given back to us in the Diocese of the South. I suspect that is the general feeling throughout the Diocese. 
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Cognomen on July 10, 2012, 12:29:08 AM
 They tried to explain to him why he could not simply move the whole operation of the OCA to Washington, DC, during a true financial crisis, and he never seemed to accept the advice.  

I don't doubt this, Father, but it had been a running joke in non-OCA circles that the autocephalous (usually said derisively) Orthodox Church of America was managed out of a P.O. Box in NY.  I can't blame the man for trying to improve the image and legitimacy of the organization.

That said, I get your broader point.

I hope it all sorts itself.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: kijabeboy03 on July 10, 2012, 12:43:24 AM
Metropolitan Jonah is a good man, but St. Athanasius? The Great? Not so much :-). I hope he finds a home in the South all the same...

In my parish I know of no one who does not hold His (former?) Beatitude in the highest regard.  We rejoiced when he was consecrated in Dallas, and though saddened by the loss we rejoiced when he was chosen as Metropolitan. We supported him in his course corrections within the OCA and his stance against ecclesial bullying from some quarters of the Orthodox world.  We knew he had a steep learning curve and we knew he might make the occasional impolitic stumble or gaff…it goes with the territory of what he was called to do.  In this situation I am reminded of St. Athanasius driven from his patriarch throne by detractors who were later proven enemies of the Church.

Had things not gone as they have these past few days, just speaking for myself, I had high hopes that Fr. Gerasim might be consecrated and sent to the Diocese of the South (I still hope he is consecrated and given a diocese in the OCA), but things being as they are…I and so far as I know…the rest of those in the OCA in MS…certainly the vast majority here would rejoice to see Met. Jonah given back to us in the Diocese of the South. I suspect that is the general feeling throughout the Diocese. 

Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Shiny on July 10, 2012, 12:44:38 AM
I think Met. Jonah was a massive failure for the OCA, and I definitely share Fr. Giyrus' sentiments.

TBH he was actually a reason why I did not consider being baptized in the OCA.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Cognomen on July 10, 2012, 01:20:48 AM
I think Met. Jonah was a massive failure for the OCA, and I definitely share Fr. Giyrus' sentiments.

TBH he was actually a reason why I did not consider being baptized in the OCA.

Bit much and a bit misguided [edit: misguided as a reason not to be baptized into the OCA, not your opinion] don't you think?  He's not our pope.

I have my own opinions about most of the bigshots (Met. Philip, for certain), but the effectiveness shouldn't strongly affect my decision to join a particular jurisdiction.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Shiny on July 10, 2012, 01:25:30 AM
Forgive me, yes it was a bit much, but honestly the state that the OCA is in I think represents the stewardship from Met. Jonah.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Cognomen on July 10, 2012, 01:27:10 AM
Forgive me, yes it was a bit much, but honestly the state that the OCA is in I think represents the stewardship from Met. Jonah.

Fair enough.  Sorry for throwing a bunch of edits onto my post.  Brain a bit slower than my typing and clicking tonight.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 10, 2012, 01:31:42 AM
Sad news.  Just out of curiousity, how common is the deposition of a primate in history?  I've read a reasonalbe amount, and the impression I get is that it's extraordinary and often either the result of misconduct or (more often) political factors, e.g. the case of EP Arsenios and Emperor Michael Palaeologos.   

(I'm not accusing Metropolitan Jonah or the Synod of anything, just making a statement)
Metropolitan Jonah was not deposed.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Basil 320 on July 10, 2012, 02:18:15 AM
Forgive me, yes it was a bit much, but honestly the state that the OCA is in I think represents the stewardship from Met. Jonah.

I disagree.  Metropolitan Jonah may not have had the administrative skills needed to turn the OCA around administratively, (nor the talents even to serve effectively in the primacial see), but the problems of today are not attributable to him.  Don't forget the SIC Report which summarizes the decline in the Orthodox Church in America attributable to the "misfeasance, malfeasance, and nonfeasance" of the administrations of the Former Metropolitans, Theodosios and Herman, and even more so to their Chancellor, Robert Kondratick, who was a Protopresbyter, but was unfrocked due to the malfeasance attributable to his "stewardship" as Chancellor.  As I recall, the SIC Report determined that there were 19 years of financial abuse, mismanagement--to use a polite term.

Never-the-less, by and large, the failings of the OCA's Central Administration in that period did not detract from the holiness of most of the priests and the parishes. And let's not ignore the administrative integrity and spirituality of the Ever-Memorable, Archbishop Job of Chicago, or of Archbishop Seraphim of Dallas, of Blessed Memory.

I don't know the answer, but it's going to take a very special hierarch, in collaboration with the Holy Synod, the national church officers, and the Metropolitan Council, to reinvigorate church wide respect for the work of the national church.  Unfortunately, I could be wrong, but I don't see any of the current members of the OCA's Holy Synod, as being up to the extraordinary challenges of which the primate will be confronted.  I think back to the work and tenure of Archbishop Athenagoras of America, who was the primate and only ruling bishop of the GOAA, from 1931 to 1948, before his election to the Throne of the Ecumenical Patriarchate; his sacrificial tenure was characterized by a healing of divisions in most communities across North America, and development of national Archdiocesan institutions, like establishing a seminary during the Great Depression, the Holy Cross School of Theology.  (Although, the GOAA was in a far worse situation when +Athenagoras ascended the Throne of America, than is the OCA  today.)
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Seraphim98 on July 10, 2012, 02:20:20 AM
Yep, St. Athanasius…not because I think Metropolitan Jonah is at present of the same depth of theological accomplishment/spiritual life…though…who knows what things may come between this present breath and his last, God willing, many years hence.  I made the comparison because HB has faced hinky opposition almost from day one…the politics of the synod…or at least some substantial quarters of it do not strike me as altogether consistent with Orthodoxy. It has made his job much tougher than it need have been. Granted he is weary, and probably as he said not temperamentally (there's some code in that word) suited to be the Metropolitan….one wonders just what type of temperament it takes…but that doesn't mean that he should not have been our hierarch, or that he was doing the job badly…just perhaps out of step with ecclesial interests which he questioned…in short for all his learning, wisdom, pastoral insight, and vision he was alas insufficiently byzantine in his political machinations to get what he wanted…while others more cunning at that art arranged for the synod's unanimous request for his resignation…at least that how it seems from here. May it please God not to have been so cynical and political…In any event HB was forced to resign and I think not justly (time will tell on that point) and this is not dissimilar to when St. Athanasius was driven from his throne.  At least it's not quite as bad as what happened to St. John Chrysostom.  So, yep…St. Athanasius.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Seraphim98 on July 10, 2012, 02:23:47 AM
Archbishop Seraphim?  Don't you mean Archbishop Dimitri? St. Seraphim is the Cathedral…not it's late bishop…if I'm not mistaken.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Νεκτάριος on July 10, 2012, 05:28:43 AM
Sad news.  Just out of curiousity, how common is the deposition of a primate in history?  I've read a reasonalbe amount, and the impression I get is that it's extraordinary and often either the result of misconduct or (more often) political factors, e.g. the case of EP Arsenios and Emperor Michael Palaeologos.   

(I'm not accusing Metropolitan Jonah or the Synod of anything, just making a statement)
Metropolitan Jonah was not deposed.

A rose by another name. 
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: biro on July 10, 2012, 07:12:20 AM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-orthodox-metropolitan-resigns-20120710,0,6513464.story

New article this morning.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: ialmisry on July 10, 2012, 08:20:21 AM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-orthodox-metropolitan-resigns-20120710,0,6513464.story

New article this morning.
Quote
"What we are witnessing now in my opinion is the result of the disconnectedness of the Orthodox Church in America from the rest of the Orthodox world," Arey said. "Its internal politics have almost become cannibalistic in my opinion."
Fr. Arey evidently hasn't been to the rest of the Orthodox world.  He also doesn't seem to realize he is in the USA.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: ICXCNIKA on July 10, 2012, 09:13:51 AM
Fr. Arey never ceases to amaze me. I'll leave it at that.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Basil 320 on July 10, 2012, 10:00:04 AM
Archbishop Seraphim?  Don't you mean Archbishop Dimitri? St. Seraphim is the Cathedral…not it's late bishop…if I'm not mistaken.

CORRECTION TO REPLY NO. 57

Yes, thank you, Seraphim98; I meant to refer to Archbishop Dimitri of Dallas.  (I must have been tired.)
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: FormerReformer on July 10, 2012, 01:50:58 PM
Dear Augustin,

If you carefully comb through the controversies surrounding Met. Jonah, you will see the 'culture war' was by far a small bump in His Beatitude's road as First Hierarch.

The main problems he encountered came from speeches in which he offended the Church of Constantinople in an unpolitical way, then later called the Tomos of Autocephaly of the OCA into question by essentially implying it could be given up in favor of an arrangement with the Episcopal Assembly. In both cases, the Holy Synod was caught off-guard, since these were major issues (inter-Orthodox relations and autocephaly itself) that the HS has a role in.

His Beatitude had a habit of musing in public, which is never something that someone of such consequence should do.  After all, when he speaks, he speaks not for himself but the entire OCA.  It appears that he never entirely grasped the idea that the OCA is a large ship and that you can't jerk the wheel this way or that before you end up breaking the rudder.

This was all the more magnified when he agreed to take a leave of absence, then 'un-agreed' after the meeting with his bishops.  His pattern of quick decisions that led him to even quicker changes of mind really made working with him difficult.  But, it was his ignoring of the other bishops that ultimately did him in.  They tried to explain to him why he could not simply move the whole operation of the OCA to Washington, DC, during a true financial crisis, and he never seemed to accept the advice.  He tried to jerk the wheel, and ended up in conflict with his own administration.

Then, there was his unfortunate involvement with Fr. Joseph Fester that was uncovered by the leaked emails posted on OCANews.  I'm sure you don't want to wade into that controversy here.

In the end, Met. Jonah is a good man, but very clearly not cut out for the job.  This is not an insult, not every monk is material for such an office.  It just did not work out.  The difficulty of the OCA is that it has had a string of bad choices, which is really painful when you are a young church.  Let's hope the next metropolitan is a better fit.



For those here who are members of OCA parishes: What do the faithful in your parish think about this issue? Is this all just something going on in the Synod, or were the laypeople and parish clergy also discontent with Met. Jonah's leadership? Would they prefer to keep him?
From my limited experience: there are those thatmourn him as if it's a presage of the world's ending, and there are those that are glad; he was really naive though thinking that he can just dive head in into the whole "culture-war" the way he did, when his church wasn't on the same page as him by and large. But with friends like Dreher, a metropolitan hardly needs enemies.

And now the Synod has shown why Metropolitan Jonah was right and that the Tomos is worth a roll of used toilet paper in the face of possible American unity. We really don't have a mature enough church in this nation for autocephaly, and won't until after a century or so of actually having a united American Church.
LOL.  You should see all the "maturity" in the Mother Churches.

Mommy being a cutter has no impact on whether or not Junior is ready for anything other than safety scissors.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: ialmisry on July 10, 2012, 01:56:17 PM
Dear Augustin,

If you carefully comb through the controversies surrounding Met. Jonah, you will see the 'culture war' was by far a small bump in His Beatitude's road as First Hierarch.

The main problems he encountered came from speeches in which he offended the Church of Constantinople in an unpolitical way, then later called the Tomos of Autocephaly of the OCA into question by essentially implying it could be given up in favor of an arrangement with the Episcopal Assembly. In both cases, the Holy Synod was caught off-guard, since these were major issues (inter-Orthodox relations and autocephaly itself) that the HS has a role in.

His Beatitude had a habit of musing in public, which is never something that someone of such consequence should do.  After all, when he speaks, he speaks not for himself but the entire OCA.  It appears that he never entirely grasped the idea that the OCA is a large ship and that you can't jerk the wheel this way or that before you end up breaking the rudder.

This was all the more magnified when he agreed to take a leave of absence, then 'un-agreed' after the meeting with his bishops.  His pattern of quick decisions that led him to even quicker changes of mind really made working with him difficult.  But, it was his ignoring of the other bishops that ultimately did him in.  They tried to explain to him why he could not simply move the whole operation of the OCA to Washington, DC, during a true financial crisis, and he never seemed to accept the advice.  He tried to jerk the wheel, and ended up in conflict with his own administration.

Then, there was his unfortunate involvement with Fr. Joseph Fester that was uncovered by the leaked emails posted on OCANews.  I'm sure you don't want to wade into that controversy here.

In the end, Met. Jonah is a good man, but very clearly not cut out for the job.  This is not an insult, not every monk is material for such an office.  It just did not work out.  The difficulty of the OCA is that it has had a string of bad choices, which is really painful when you are a young church.  Let's hope the next metropolitan is a better fit.



For those here who are members of OCA parishes: What do the faithful in your parish think about this issue? Is this all just something going on in the Synod, or were the laypeople and parish clergy also discontent with Met. Jonah's leadership? Would they prefer to keep him?
From my limited experience: there are those thatmourn him as if it's a presage of the world's ending, and there are those that are glad; he was really naive though thinking that he can just dive head in into the whole "culture-war" the way he did, when his church wasn't on the same page as him by and large. But with friends like Dreher, a metropolitan hardly needs enemies.

And now the Synod has shown why Metropolitan Jonah was right and that the Tomos is worth a roll of used toilet paper in the face of possible American unity. We really don't have a mature enough church in this nation for autocephaly, and won't until after a century or so of actually having a united American Church.
LOL.  You should see all the "maturity" in the Mother Churches.

Mommy being a cutter has no impact on whether or not Junior is ready for anything other than safety scissors.
LOL. Touché
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: BoredMeeting on July 10, 2012, 02:40:24 PM
Metropolitan Jonah will be sorely missed by those of us who believe that the Church should not be silent about what is happening in the American culture.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Gorazd on July 10, 2012, 04:08:07 PM
Orthodoxy should concentrate on saving souls. The Culture Wars are struggles between the fundamentalist and the liberal currents that both came out of the Protestant Reformation. They are none of our business.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: katherine 2001 on July 10, 2012, 06:27:15 PM
Tell St. Basil the Great and St. John Chrysostom that.  They had a lot to say about how we are to treat others, especially the poor.  What is going on in the culture often affects a persons soul.  There are many aspects to the salvation of souls.  Cultural values affect all of us as we often adopt them, even many that are totally against the teachings of Christ.  If the Church cares about the salvation of souls, then it has to take a stand against these things.  Jesus took on the Jewish culture of His time and it didn't make Him very popular with the the religious rulers of His day, did it?  In other words, Jesus didn't hesitate to say something about the values of the society. 
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 10, 2012, 06:51:24 PM
The unfortunate thing about war is that human beings become abstractions.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: kijabeboy03 on July 10, 2012, 08:53:56 PM
That is utterly ridiculous. Is he also like St. George in his heroic sufferings for the Faith?

Yep, St. Athanasius…not because I think Metropolitan Jonah is at present of the same depth of theological accomplishment/spiritual life…though…who knows what things may come between this present breath and his last, God willing, many years hence.  I made the comparison because HB has faced hinky opposition almost from day one…the politics of the synod…or at least some substantial quarters of it do not strike me as altogether consistent with Orthodoxy. It has made his job much tougher than it need have been. Granted he is weary, and probably as he said not temperamentally (there's some code in that word) suited to be the Metropolitan….one wonders just what type of temperament it takes…but that doesn't mean that he should not have been our hierarch, or that he was doing the job badly…just perhaps out of step with ecclesial interests which he questioned…in short for all his learning, wisdom, pastoral insight, and vision he was alas insufficiently byzantine in his political machinations to get what he wanted…while others more cunning at that art arranged for the synod's unanimous request for his resignation…at least that how it seems from here. May it please God not to have been so cynical and political…In any event HB was forced to resign and I think not justly (time will tell on that point) and this is not dissimilar to when St. Athanasius was driven from his throne.  At least it's not quite as bad as what happened to St. John Chrysostom.  So, yep…St. Athanasius.

Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Father H on July 11, 2012, 02:01:42 AM
Sad news.  Just out of curiousity, how common is the deposition of a primate in history?  I've read a reasonalbe amount, and the impression I get is that it's extraordinary and often either the result of misconduct or (more often) political factors, e.g. the case of EP Arsenios and Emperor Michael Palaeologos.   

(I'm not accusing Metropolitan Jonah or the Synod of anything, just making a statement)
Metropolitan Jonah was not deposed.

Correct.  He has not been asked to give up his episcopate.  He has resigned as Primate of the Synod, not as a Bishop, and specifically requests another episcopal assignment within the OCA. 
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: ialmisry on July 11, 2012, 02:07:25 AM
Orthodoxy should concentrate on saving souls. The Culture Wars are struggles between the fundamentalist and the liberal currents that both came out of the Protestant Reformation. They are none of our business.
Have you seen the Hungarian Constitution?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 11, 2012, 02:54:56 PM
Orthodoxy should concentrate on saving souls. The Culture Wars are struggles between the fundamentalist and the liberal currents that both came out of the Protestant Reformation. They are none of our business.

Maybe. But how to relate to those who face contemporary issues certainly is the Church's business. We don't save the souls of people facing serious temptations by telling them that they should sin.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: podkarpatska on July 11, 2012, 04:00:19 PM
I think that many of us have a problem with the term 'culture wars' in that the moral issues with which we strongly adhere to are wrapped into a package of political and economic theories to which many of us do not subscribe. Also, the 'culture warriors' are for the large part Evangelical Protestants - representatives of many of the same groups who insist on proselytizing in our ancestral homelands as if we were never Christian. This rankles many of us - particularly when you read nonsense like this: http://www.euroteamoutreach.org/index.php?p=cmo.  Part of the war they are fighting is to co-opt us - the believers in the Apostolic Faith - the Orthodox.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: serb1389 on July 11, 2012, 08:54:21 PM
Orthodoxy should concentrate on saving souls. The Culture Wars are struggles between the fundamentalist and the liberal currents that both came out of the Protestant Reformation. They are none of our business.
Have you seen the Hungarian Constitution?

LMAO!!

That's fantastic.  Really hoping we're on the same page on this one.  Care to elaborate?  PM me
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: rakovsky on July 13, 2012, 12:29:20 AM
I propose moving these questions to a thread in the Politics Section:
Funny Things about the Hungarian Constitution.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,45817.new.html#new

Orthodoxy should concentrate on saving souls. The Culture Wars are struggles between the fundamentalist and the liberal currents that both came out of the Protestant Reformation. They are none of our business.
Have you seen the Hungarian Constitution?
I think Ialmisry's point is that some of these culture wars are taken up in the Hungarian Constitution, like describing Hungary in the 20th century as leading to moral "decay"- even though who was leading the country in the 1990's, which was the period that the century led to?

Quote
Background [from before the 2011 Constitution]
Statute I of 1920 confirmed the monarchical form of government (albeit with a vacant throne, the king's powers being exercised by [fascist] regent Miklós Horthy and his ministers)... Statute XLVII dethroned the Habsburg-Lorraine dynasty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Hungary

From the 2011 Constitution (http://www.kormany.hu/download/4/c3/30000/THE%20FUNDAMENTAL%20LAW%20OF%20HUNGARY.pdf)
Quote
Preamble
We are proud that our people has over the centuries defended Europe in a series of struggles
Like the Huns and Magyars that invaded from Asia in the Middle Ages?
Quote
We honour the achievements of our historical constitution and we honour the Holy Crown, which embodies the constitutional continuity of Hungary’s statehood and the unity of the nation... We do not recognise the suspension of our historical constitution due to foreign occupations... We do not recognise the communist constitution of 1949, since it was the basis for tyrannical rule; therefore we proclaim it to be invalid.
Hungary's first constitution was the 1949 Stalinist one. What is the Holy Crown of Hungary? The one dethroned in the 1920's?
Quote
We date the restoration of our country’s self-determination, ...from the second day of May 1990...
We hold that after the decades of the twentieth century which led to a state of moral decay, we have an abiding need for spiritual and intellectual renewal.
Would the Constitution's authors happen to have met the people in power from 1990-2000?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: rakovsky on July 13, 2012, 01:18:36 AM
I wanted to ask what was the real deal with the problems about Metropolitan Jonah. You see, it's very unfortunate he wasn't getting along with the Synod, and the move to an expensive Washington place sounds pretty counterproductive. But the part about having an inner circle around him trying to help his image with internet PR or telling him to be stronger sounds like a petty issue.

Plus, things like signing a document against abortion and gay stuff, or taking a position on the relations of the OCA with other American Churches sound like neutral if not positive steps.

So it seems they should try to work things out more, unless there is something I am missing. Personally I would have liked to see Bishop Job as metropolitan, but it was good to try to have a new person to deal with the older problems. And why get rid of someone as important as a Metropolitan because of simple personal disagreements. So I admit perhaps there could well be some other very bad problem, but I don't feel ready to make some judgment about the situation. Maybe it's better that way? Generally I think it's better for people to be informed and know about problems so they can be dealt with.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 13, 2012, 01:52:04 AM
I wanted to ask what was the real deal with the problems about Metropolitan Jonah. You see, it's very unfortunate he wasn't getting along with the Synod, and the move to an expensive Washington place sounds pretty counterproductive. But the part about having an inner circle around him trying to help his image with internet PR or telling him to be stronger sounds like a petty issue.

Plus, things like signing a document against abortion and gay stuff, or taking a position on the relations of the OCA with other American Churches sound like neutral if not positive steps.

So it seems they should try to work things out more, unless there is something I am missing. Personally I would have liked to see Bishop Job as metropolitan, but it was good to try to have a new person to deal with the older problems. And why get rid of someone as important as a Metropolitan because of simple personal disagreements. So I admit perhaps there could well be some other very bad problem, but I don't feel ready to make some judgment about the situation. Maybe it's better that way? Generally I think it's better for people to be informed and know about problems so they can be dealt with.
I'm not sure I know what the reasons were, but I'm pretty sure we'll find out more as news trickles out over the next few weeks. Until then, I wouldn't speculate that much. It's probably best we not know until we get the truth from the more official sources.

From what little I have gathered from OCA.org over the last couple of years, though, I get the picture that Metropolitan Jonah often didn't collaborate with his Synod and frequently worked against them on issues of importance to the whole of the OCA. I'm learning from my role as president of a non-profit organization that the role of president--in His Beatitude's case, president of the Synod--requires much more the ability to build a consensus within his team than the ability to make decisions on his own. In fact, I would say that Apostolic Canon 34 kinda requires this team-building ability of a national primate. It's not just about doing the right things, it's about doing the right things the right way.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Basil 320 on July 13, 2012, 03:14:14 AM
I've never understood what the OCA's Holy Synod's problem was with Metropolitan Jonah; there are plenty of Synods across the world and through history that were led by a primate who isn't prone to collaborate with his fellow hierarchs.  How much collaborating does any one think Patriarch Bartholomew does with the Holy and Sacred Synod of Constantinople,  unlike his predecessor who exhibited a humble and submissive persona?  Not too much is my guess.  Was His Eminence forced to resign because he is a political conservative and all the members of the Synod are liberals?  Hard to believe, if that is the case.  Yet, how could each member of the Synod be so opposed to his primatial leadership, that they would unanimously vote to force his resignation?

No one has even alleged that that His Eminence violated canons in his primatial leadership, or that he lacks spirituality.  Thus, I would beg all of you with influence in the OCA, and all common members of the OCA, to lobby in support of fair treatment of His Eminence in retirement.  Suggest a life long salary equivalent to the pension he would have earned if he served in the primatial see for a long term; no less than $70,000.00, but no more than $100,000.00 annually, plus the OCA should provide him with health care plan permanently--requiring him to participate somewhat in payment of its premiums, and a small housing subsidy, possibly.  Yes, this would be an administrative burden, but he never sought the primacy and he isn't guilty of canonical infractions, or abuse of his office (unlike his two predecessors) during his tenure.  Grant him these benefits with a well worded contract, appropriately executed, approved by the OCA's legal counsel, the Holy Synod of Bishops, and the Metropolitan Council, so that future church leadership cannot dispose of the contract, if they feel it is a waste of the OCA's resources.  It is not uncommon for a church to provide for a retired hierarch with life long benefits, in the GOAA we had a few line items in our National Ministries budget related to Archbishop Iakovos' Office, former Archbishop of America, until His Eminence's passing from this life.  Of course, the contract should require him to maintain a priestly behavior, to not speak or act in opposition to OCA policies and initiatives.  Metropolitan Jonah probably should not be elected to another diocesan see because a disgruntled bishop, one who perceives he was forced to resign without cause, is prone to not being a team player, and if he didn't have the proficiency to effectively serve the primatial see, he probably doesn't have the appropriate skills to serve and administer a diocese effectively.  Perhaps he could be encouraged to write and publish, to do things that benefit the church, using he talents that he does possess, talents that made him a successful Abbot of a monastery.  Hopefully he can afford to purchase a small retirement home that would be near a monastery, so that he could join in the life of a monastery, as he is a monastic.  I would also suggest he be permitted a place of honor at church-wide banquets, as the retired primate of the OCA, and that he be invited to celebrate the Divine Services of the church at national and diocesan related activities.

May the OCA have the maturity to permanently treat their former primate with the respect he deserves; and may His Eminence find peace of mind in his retirement.  "Eis polla eti, Despota!"
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 13, 2012, 03:22:00 AM
I've never understood what the OCA's Holy Synod's problem was with Metropolitan Jonah; there are plenty of Synods across the world and through history that were led by a primate who isn't prone to collaborate with his fellow hierarchs.  How much collaborating does any one think Patriarch Bartholomew does with the Holy and Sacred Synod of Constantinople,  unlike his predecessor who exhibited a humble and submissive persona?  Not too much is my guess.
That's only your guess. You don't know. Besides, I don't think it quite fair to compare the EP's synod with the synod of the OCA. Each synod has its own personality.

Was His Eminence forced to resign because he is a political conservative and all the members of the Synod are liberals?  Hard to believe, if that is the case.  Yet, how could each member of the Synod be so opposed to his primatial leadership, that they would unanimously vote to force his resignation?
Yes, the unanimity says a lot of things that just a majority vote does not say.

No one has even alleged that that His Eminence violated canons in his primatial leadership, or that he lacks spirituality.  Thus, I would beg all of you with influence in the OCA, and all common members of the OCA, to lobby in support of fair treatment of His Eminence in retirement.
I'm not aware that Metr. Jonah is retiring. It's quite likely that he'll accept another episcopal assignment. Regardless of what you say in speculation about how he may act as a former primate, I have more faith in his maturity than that.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: PrincessMommy on July 13, 2012, 07:29:03 AM
I've never understood what the OCA's Holy Synod's problem was with Metropolitan Jonah; there are plenty of Synods across the world and through history that were led by a primate who isn't prone to collaborate with his fellow hierarchs.  How much collaborating does any one think Patriarch Bartholomew does with the Holy and Sacred Synod of Constantinople,  unlike his predecessor who exhibited a humble and submissive persona?  Not too much is my guess.  Was His Eminence forced to resign because he is a political conservative and all the members of the Synod are liberals?  Hard to believe, if that is the case.  Yet, how could each member of the Synod be so opposed to his primatial leadership, that they would unanimously vote to force his resignation?

No one has even alleged that that His Eminence violated canons in his primatial leadership, or that he lacks spirituality.  Thus, I would beg all of you with influence in the OCA, and all common members of the OCA, to lobby in support of fair treatment of His Eminence in retirement.  Suggest a life long salary equivalent to the pension he would have earned if he served in the primatial see for a long term; no less than $70,000.00, but no more than $100,000.00 annually, plus the OCA should provide him with health care plan permanently--requiring him to participate somewhat in payment of its premiums, and a small housing subsidy, possibly.  Yes, this would be an administrative burden, but he never sought the primacy and he isn't guilty of canonical infractions, or abuse of his office (unlike his two predecessors) during his tenure.  Grant him these benefits with a well worded contract, appropriately executed, approved by the OCA's legal counsel, the Holy Synod of Bishops, and the Metropolitan Council, so that future church leadership cannot dispose of the contract, if they feel it is a waste of the OCA's resources.  It is not uncommon for a church to provide for a retired hierarch with life long benefits, in the GOAA we had a few line items in our National Ministries budget related to Archbishop Iakovos' Office, former Archbishop of America, until His Eminence's passing from this life.  Of course, the contract should require him to maintain a priestly behavior, to not speak or act in opposition to OCA policies and initiatives.  Metropolitan Jonah probably should not be elected to another diocesan see because a disgruntled bishop, one who perceives he was forced to resign without cause, is prone to not being a team player, and if he didn't have the proficiency to effectively serve the primatial see, he probably doesn't have the appropriate skills to serve and administer a diocese effectively.  Perhaps he could be encouraged to write and publish, to do things that benefit the church, using he talents that he does possess, talents that made him a successful Abbot of a monastery.  Hopefully he can afford to purchase a small retirement home that would be near a monastery, so that he could join in the life of a monastery, as he is a monastic.  I would also suggest he be permitted a place of honor at church-wide banquets, as the retired primate of the OCA, and that he be invited to celebrate the Divine Services of the church at national and diocesan related activities.

May the OCA have the maturity to permanently treat their former primate with the respect he deserves; and may His Eminence find peace of mind in his retirement.  "Eis polla eti, Despota!"

It would be interesting to compare how Met. HERMAN is being treated with what they want to do with Met. JONAH.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: PrincessMommy on July 13, 2012, 07:35:48 AM
There is so many accusations flying around the internet it is so hard for the regular guy to figure out what is what.  I often wonder if part of the problem is the OCA's style of gov't.  Do the other jurisdictions choose their Primate in the same manner?  I don't think ROCOR does, but I'm unsure how the Antiochians or Greeks do it.  Do they give the people a voice?  It seems to me that since many people have a say in how the church is run (local and national level) that everyone has an opinion and then it become very difficult to wade through all the voices in the conversation.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: podkarpatska on July 13, 2012, 07:56:43 AM
There is so many accusations flying around the internet it is so hard for the regular guy to figure out what is what.  I often wonder if part of the problem is the OCA's style of gov't.  Do the other jurisdictions choose their Primate in the same manner?  I don't think ROCOR does, but I'm unsure how the Antiochians or Greeks do it.  Do they give the people a voice?  It seems to me that since many people have a say in how the church is run (local and national level) that everyone has an opinion and then it become very difficult to wade through all the voices in the conversation.

It differs from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. For example, tomorrow ACROD is having a Sobor of priests only to elect a new Bishop. There is no lay participation in this process. Can't speak for others though...
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Basil 320 on July 13, 2012, 08:03:17 AM
I've never understood what the OCA's Holy Synod's problem was with Metropolitan Jonah; there are plenty of Synods across the world and through history that were led by a primate who isn't prone to collaborate with his fellow hierarchs.  How much collaborating does any one think Patriarch Bartholomew does with the Holy and Sacred Synod of Constantinople,  unlike his predecessor who exhibited a humble and submissive persona?  Not too much is my guess.  Was His Eminence forced to resign because he is a political conservative and all the members of the Synod are liberals?  Hard to believe, if that is the case.  Yet, how could each member of the Synod be so opposed to his primatial leadership, that they would unanimously vote to force his resignation?

No one has even alleged that that His Eminence violated canons in his primatial leadership, or that he lacks spirituality.  Thus, I would beg all of you with influence in the OCA, and all common members of the OCA, to lobby in support of fair treatment of His Eminence in retirement.  Suggest a life long salary equivalent to the pension he would have earned if he served in the primatial see for a long term; no less than $70,000.00, but no more than $100,000.00 annually, plus the OCA should provide him with health care plan permanently--requiring him to participate somewhat in payment of its premiums, and a small housing subsidy, possibly.  Yes, this would be an administrative burden, but he never sought the primacy and he isn't guilty of canonical infractions, or abuse of his office (unlike his two predecessors) during his tenure.  Grant him these benefits with a well worded contract, appropriately executed, approved by the OCA's legal counsel, the Holy Synod of Bishops, and the Metropolitan Council, so that future church leadership cannot dispose of the contract, if they feel it is a waste of the OCA's resources.  It is not uncommon for a church to provide for a retired hierarch with life long benefits, in the GOAA we had a few line items in our National Ministries budget related to Archbishop Iakovos' Office, former Archbishop of America, until His Eminence's passing from this life.  Of course, the contract should require him to maintain a priestly behavior, to not speak or act in opposition to OCA policies and initiatives.  Metropolitan Jonah probably should not be elected to another diocesan see because a disgruntled bishop, one who perceives he was forced to resign without cause, is prone to not being a team player, and if he didn't have the proficiency to effectively serve the primatial see, he probably doesn't have the appropriate skills to serve and administer a diocese effectively.  Perhaps he could be encouraged to write and publish, to do things that benefit the church, using he talents that he does possess, talents that made him a successful Abbot of a monastery.  Hopefully he can afford to purchase a small retirement home that would be near a monastery, so that he could join in the life of a monastery, as he is a monastic.  I would also suggest he be permitted a place of honor at church-wide banquets, as the retired primate of the OCA, and that he be invited to celebrate the Divine Services of the church at national and diocesan related activities.

May the OCA have the maturity to permanently treat their former primate with the respect he deserves; and may His Eminence find peace of mind in his retirement.  "Eis polla eti, Despota!"

It would be interesting to compare how Met. HERMAN is being treated with what they want to do with Met. JONAH.

I would be inclined to agree with this suggested analogy, but the issue, as noted elsewhere above, is that Metropolitan Jonah resigned and his resignation was accepted.  Metropolitan Herman served as a priest, bishop and primate for so long that he earned a pension, whether the church desired for him to be able to secure his pension or not, they had no choice because there is no mechanism to preclude his receipt of his pension.  However, Metropolitan Jonah, having served as a monastery's abbot, while a Hieromonk, probably did not earn a salary or participate in the pension system--though I don't know for sure, given his age and lack of significant tenure in the pension system, is not eligible for a pension; even if he qualified for disability, his lack of time in the pension system would preclude his receipt of a disability payment, in an amount that could support him.  That's why I recommended that a salary be granted to him.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 13, 2012, 11:37:36 AM
I've never understood what the OCA's Holy Synod's problem was with Metropolitan Jonah; there are plenty of Synods across the world and through history that were led by a primate who isn't prone to collaborate with his fellow hierarchs.  How much collaborating does any one think Patriarch Bartholomew does with the Holy and Sacred Synod of Constantinople,  unlike his predecessor who exhibited a humble and submissive persona?  Not too much is my guess.  Was His Eminence forced to resign because he is a political conservative and all the members of the Synod are liberals?  Hard to believe, if that is the case.  Yet, how could each member of the Synod be so opposed to his primatial leadership, that they would unanimously vote to force his resignation?

No one has even alleged that that His Eminence violated canons in his primatial leadership, or that he lacks spirituality.  Thus, I would beg all of you with influence in the OCA, and all common members of the OCA, to lobby in support of fair treatment of His Eminence in retirement.  Suggest a life long salary equivalent to the pension he would have earned if he served in the primatial see for a long term; no less than $70,000.00, but no more than $100,000.00 annually, plus the OCA should provide him with health care plan permanently--requiring him to participate somewhat in payment of its premiums, and a small housing subsidy, possibly.  Yes, this would be an administrative burden, but he never sought the primacy and he isn't guilty of canonical infractions, or abuse of his office (unlike his two predecessors) during his tenure.  Grant him these benefits with a well worded contract, appropriately executed, approved by the OCA's legal counsel, the Holy Synod of Bishops, and the Metropolitan Council, so that future church leadership cannot dispose of the contract, if they feel it is a waste of the OCA's resources.  It is not uncommon for a church to provide for a retired hierarch with life long benefits, in the GOAA we had a few line items in our National Ministries budget related to Archbishop Iakovos' Office, former Archbishop of America, until His Eminence's passing from this life.  Of course, the contract should require him to maintain a priestly behavior, to not speak or act in opposition to OCA policies and initiatives.  Metropolitan Jonah probably should not be elected to another diocesan see because a disgruntled bishop, one who perceives he was forced to resign without cause, is prone to not being a team player, and if he didn't have the proficiency to effectively serve the primatial see, he probably doesn't have the appropriate skills to serve and administer a diocese effectively.  Perhaps he could be encouraged to write and publish, to do things that benefit the church, using he talents that he does possess, talents that made him a successful Abbot of a monastery.  Hopefully he can afford to purchase a small retirement home that would be near a monastery, so that he could join in the life of a monastery, as he is a monastic.  I would also suggest he be permitted a place of honor at church-wide banquets, as the retired primate of the OCA, and that he be invited to celebrate the Divine Services of the church at national and diocesan related activities.

May the OCA have the maturity to permanently treat their former primate with the respect he deserves; and may His Eminence find peace of mind in his retirement.  "Eis polla eti, Despota!"

It would be interesting to compare how Met. HERMAN is being treated with what they want to do with Met. JONAH.

I would be inclined to agree with this suggested analogy, but the issue, as noted elsewhere above, is that Metropolitan Jonah resigned and his resignation was accepted.  Metropolitan Herman served as a priest, bishop and primate for so long that he earned a pension, whether the church desired for him to be able to secure his pension or not, they had no choice because there is no mechanism to preclude his receipt of his pension.  However, Metropolitan Jonah, having served as a monastery's abbot, while a Hieromonk, probably did not earn a salary or participate in the pension system--though I don't know for sure, given his age and lack of significant tenure in the pension system, is not eligible for a pension; even if he qualified for disability, his lack of time in the pension system would preclude his receipt of a disability payment, in an amount that could support him.  That's why I recommended that a salary be granted to him.

Metropolitan Herman should have been deposed. Since we don't really have a concept of retirement in the church, couldn't he still be deposed?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on July 13, 2012, 11:47:49 AM
I've never understood what the OCA's Holy Synod's problem was with Metropolitan Jonah; there are plenty of Synods across the world and through history that were led by a primate who isn't prone to collaborate with his fellow hierarchs.  How much collaborating does any one think Patriarch Bartholomew does with the Holy and Sacred Synod of Constantinople,  unlike his predecessor who exhibited a humble and submissive persona?  Not too much is my guess.  Was His Eminence forced to resign because he is a political conservative and all the members of the Synod are liberals?  Hard to believe, if that is the case.  Yet, how could each member of the Synod be so opposed to his primatial leadership, that they would unanimously vote to force his resignation?

No one has even alleged that that His Eminence violated canons in his primatial leadership, or that he lacks spirituality.  Thus, I would beg all of you with influence in the OCA, and all common members of the OCA, to lobby in support of fair treatment of His Eminence in retirement.  Suggest a life long salary equivalent to the pension he would have earned if he served in the primatial see for a long term; no less than $70,000.00, but no more than $100,000.00 annually, plus the OCA should provide him with health care plan permanently--requiring him to participate somewhat in payment of its premiums, and a small housing subsidy, possibly.  Yes, this would be an administrative burden, but he never sought the primacy and he isn't guilty of canonical infractions, or abuse of his office (unlike his two predecessors) during his tenure.  Grant him these benefits with a well worded contract, appropriately executed, approved by the OCA's legal counsel, the Holy Synod of Bishops, and the Metropolitan Council, so that future church leadership cannot dispose of the contract, if they feel it is a waste of the OCA's resources.  It is not uncommon for a church to provide for a retired hierarch with life long benefits, in the GOAA we had a few line items in our National Ministries budget related to Archbishop Iakovos' Office, former Archbishop of America, until His Eminence's passing from this life.  Of course, the contract should require him to maintain a priestly behavior, to not speak or act in opposition to OCA policies and initiatives.  Metropolitan Jonah probably should not be elected to another diocesan see because a disgruntled bishop, one who perceives he was forced to resign without cause, is prone to not being a team player, and if he didn't have the proficiency to effectively serve the primatial see, he probably doesn't have the appropriate skills to serve and administer a diocese effectively.  Perhaps he could be encouraged to write and publish, to do things that benefit the church, using he talents that he does possess, talents that made him a successful Abbot of a monastery.  Hopefully he can afford to purchase a small retirement home that would be near a monastery, so that he could join in the life of a monastery, as he is a monastic.  I would also suggest he be permitted a place of honor at church-wide banquets, as the retired primate of the OCA, and that he be invited to celebrate the Divine Services of the church at national and diocesan related activities.

May the OCA have the maturity to permanently treat their former primate with the respect he deserves; and may His Eminence find peace of mind in his retirement.  "Eis polla eti, Despota!"

It would be interesting to compare how Met. HERMAN is being treated with what they want to do with Met. JONAH.

I would be inclined to agree with this suggested analogy, but the issue, as noted elsewhere above, is that Metropolitan Jonah resigned and his resignation was accepted.  Metropolitan Herman served as a priest, bishop and primate for so long that he earned a pension, whether the church desired for him to be able to secure his pension or not, they had no choice because there is no mechanism to preclude his receipt of his pension.  However, Metropolitan Jonah, having served as a monastery's abbot, while a Hieromonk, probably did not earn a salary or participate in the pension system--though I don't know for sure, given his age and lack of significant tenure in the pension system, is not eligible for a pension; even if he qualified for disability, his lack of time in the pension system would preclude his receipt of a disability payment, in an amount that could support him.  That's why I recommended that a salary be granted to him.

Metropolitan Herman should have been deposed. Since we don't really have a concept of retirement in the church, couldn't he still be deposed?

Matters of retirement (or not) are strictly within the purview of each local church. In this case, the OCA Statute is definitive and yes, there is such a thing as retirement in the OCA.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: augustin717 on July 13, 2012, 11:52:55 AM
I've never understood what the OCA's Holy Synod's problem was with Metropolitan Jonah; there are plenty of Synods across the world and through history that were led by a primate who isn't prone to collaborate with his fellow hierarchs.  How much collaborating does any one think Patriarch Bartholomew does with the Holy and Sacred Synod of Constantinople,  unlike his predecessor who exhibited a humble and submissive persona?  Not too much is my guess.  Was His Eminence forced to resign because he is a political conservative and all the members of the Synod are liberals?  Hard to believe, if that is the case.  Yet, how could each member of the Synod be so opposed to his primatial leadership, that they would unanimously vote to force his resignation?

No one has even alleged that that His Eminence violated canons in his primatial leadership, or that he lacks spirituality.  Thus, I would beg all of you with influence in the OCA, and all common members of the OCA, to lobby in support of fair treatment of His Eminence in retirement.  Suggest a life long salary equivalent to the pension he would have earned if he served in the primatial see for a long term; no less than $70,000.00, but no more than $100,000.00 annually, plus the OCA should provide him with health care plan permanently--requiring him to participate somewhat in payment of its premiums, and a small housing subsidy, possibly.  Yes, this would be an administrative burden, but he never sought the primacy and he isn't guilty of canonical infractions, or abuse of his office (unlike his two predecessors) during his tenure.  Grant him these benefits with a well worded contract, appropriately executed, approved by the OCA's legal counsel, the Holy Synod of Bishops, and the Metropolitan Council, so that future church leadership cannot dispose of the contract, if they feel it is a waste of the OCA's resources.  It is not uncommon for a church to provide for a retired hierarch with life long benefits, in the GOAA we had a few line items in our National Ministries budget related to Archbishop Iakovos' Office, former Archbishop of America, until His Eminence's passing from this life.  Of course, the contract should require him to maintain a priestly behavior, to not speak or act in opposition to OCA policies and initiatives.  Metropolitan Jonah probably should not be elected to another diocesan see because a disgruntled bishop, one who perceives he was forced to resign without cause, is prone to not being a team player, and if he didn't have the proficiency to effectively serve the primatial see, he probably doesn't have the appropriate skills to serve and administer a diocese effectively.  Perhaps he could be encouraged to write and publish, to do things that benefit the church, using he talents that he does possess, talents that made him a successful Abbot of a monastery.  Hopefully he can afford to purchase a small retirement home that would be near a monastery, so that he could join in the life of a monastery, as he is a monastic.  I would also suggest he be permitted a place of honor at church-wide banquets, as the retired primate of the OCA, and that he be invited to celebrate the Divine Services of the church at national and diocesan related activities.

May the OCA have the maturity to permanently treat their former primate with the respect he deserves; and may His Eminence find peace of mind in his retirement.  "Eis polla eti, Despota!"
Sounds like enjoying the benefits of the welfare state after having lectured against it at Acton and The American Enterprise.  ::)
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Seraphim98 on July 13, 2012, 12:47:54 PM
I can't speak for everyone else, but if he is no longer going to be Primate, there are quite a number of us in the Diocese of the South who would welcome his return to us as our bishop.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Father H on July 13, 2012, 01:37:08 PM
I've never understood what the OCA's Holy Synod's problem was with Metropolitan Jonah; there are plenty of Synods across the world and through history that were led by a primate who isn't prone to collaborate with his fellow hierarchs.  How much collaborating does any one think Patriarch Bartholomew does with the Holy and Sacred Synod of Constantinople,  unlike his predecessor who exhibited a humble and submissive persona?  Not too much is my guess.  Was His Eminence forced to resign because he is a political conservative and all the members of the Synod are liberals?  Hard to believe, if that is the case.  Yet, how could each member of the Synod be so opposed to his primatial leadership, that they would unanimously vote to force his resignation?

No one has even alleged that that His Eminence violated canons in his primatial leadership, or that he lacks spirituality.  Thus, I would beg all of you with influence in the OCA, and all common members of the OCA, to lobby in support of fair treatment of His Eminence in retirement.  Suggest a life long salary equivalent to the pension he would have earned if he served in the primatial see for a long term; no less than $70,000.00, but no more than $100,000.00 annually, plus the OCA should provide him with health care plan permanently--requiring him to participate somewhat in payment of its premiums, and a small housing subsidy, possibly.  Yes, this would be an administrative burden, but he never sought the primacy and he isn't guilty of canonical infractions, or abuse of his office (unlike his two predecessors) during his tenure.  Grant him these benefits with a well worded contract, appropriately executed, approved by the OCA's legal counsel, the Holy Synod of Bishops, and the Metropolitan Council, so that future church leadership cannot dispose of the contract, if they feel it is a waste of the OCA's resources.  It is not uncommon for a church to provide for a retired hierarch with life long benefits, in the GOAA we had a few line items in our National Ministries budget related to Archbishop Iakovos' Office, former Archbishop of America, until His Eminence's passing from this life.  Of course, the contract should require him to maintain a priestly behavior, to not speak or act in opposition to OCA policies and initiatives.  Metropolitan Jonah probably should not be elected to another diocesan see because a disgruntled bishop, one who perceives he was forced to resign without cause, is prone to not being a team player, and if he didn't have the proficiency to effectively serve the primatial see, he probably doesn't have the appropriate skills to serve and administer a diocese effectively.  Perhaps he could be encouraged to write and publish, to do things that benefit the church, using he talents that he does possess, talents that made him a successful Abbot of a monastery.  Hopefully he can afford to purchase a small retirement home that would be near a monastery, so that he could join in the life of a monastery, as he is a monastic.  I would also suggest he be permitted a place of honor at church-wide banquets, as the retired primate of the OCA, and that he be invited to celebrate the Divine Services of the church at national and diocesan related activities.

May the OCA have the maturity to permanently treat their former primate with the respect he deserves; and may His Eminence find peace of mind in his retirement.  "Eis polla eti, Despota!"

It would be interesting to compare how Met. HERMAN is being treated with what they want to do with Met. JONAH.

I would be inclined to agree with this suggested analogy, but the issue, as noted elsewhere above, is that Metropolitan Jonah resigned and his resignation was accepted.  Metropolitan Herman served as a priest, bishop and primate for so long that he earned a pension, whether the church desired for him to be able to secure his pension or not, they had no choice because there is no mechanism to preclude his receipt of his pension.  However, Metropolitan Jonah, having served as a monastery's abbot, while a Hieromonk, probably did not earn a salary or participate in the pension system--though I don't know for sure, given his age and lack of significant tenure in the pension system, is not eligible for a pension; even if he qualified for disability, his lack of time in the pension system would preclude his receipt of a disability payment, in an amount that could support him.  That's why I recommended that a salary be granted to him.

Metropolitan Herman should have been deposed. Since we don't really have a concept of retirement in the church, couldn't he still be deposed?

Matters of retirement (or not) are strictly within the purview of each local church. In this case, the OCA Statute is definitive and yes, there is such a thing as retirement in the OCA.

It is not only in local churches but in the universal canons, as is evident in both the Pedalion and the Kormchaya Kniga.  The Council of 861 clearly recognizes in its 16th canon the right of a bishop including a primate to "resign" (retire) from his episcopal appointment and yet retain the "honor and office of the episcopate" and have legitimate reassignment.  
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Cognomen on July 13, 2012, 02:29:16 PM
Thanks for the response.

But I think this is going to start taking the thread down another route if we continue, so this is my last post on the matter here.

Agreed, and back on topic (whatever it is now).

I think my point, which Augustin responded to, is that the line between the Church's role in personal faith and "culture warrioring" isn't always as clearly defined as he portrays it to be. 

Shouldn't the Church try to at least public express it's position, if discernible, on certain matters?  The effectiveness of these attempts is a completely different topic though. The abortion issue may be complicated, but what about the death penalty?  If the Church publicly opposes that, is this still "culture warrioring"?  If it publicly condemns greed and inclinations to not take care of the poor, is that "culture warrioring"? 

Or, as I suspect, is the pejorative term only applied to positions that Augustin and others personally disagree with? 

I'm unsure as to what the Church's role should be in the "culture war," and it may be slanted towards Evangelical type positions, focusing too much on things it perhaps shouldn't.  But Christ and the early Christians seemed inclined to speak publicly and try to influence society.  I'm not sure why the OCA trying to do that is necessarily a bad thing.

Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: orthonorm on July 13, 2012, 02:37:21 PM
Thanks for the response.

But I think this is going to start taking the thread down another route if we continue, so this is my last post on the matter here.

Agreed, and back on topic (whatever it is now).

I think my point, which Augustin responded to, is that the line between the Church's role in personal faith and "culture warrioring" isn't always as clearly defined as he portrays it to be.  

Shouldn't the Church try to at least public express it's position, if discernible, on certain matters?  The effectiveness of these attempts is a completely different topic though. The abortion issue may be complicated, but what about the death penalty?  If the Church publicly opposes that, is this still "culture warrioring"?  If it publicly condemns greed and inclinations to not take care of the poor, is that "culture warrioring"?  

Or, as I suspect, is the pejorative term only applied to positions that Augustin and others personally disagree with?  

I'm unsure as to what the Church's role should be in the "culture war," and it may be slanted towards Evangelical type positions, focusing too much on things it perhaps shouldn't.  But Christ and the early Christians seemed inclined to speak publicly and try to influence society.  I'm not sure why the OCA trying to do that is necessarily a bad thing.

I would like to discuss this more openly among other things on the board about the OCA right now, but too many people know who I am around here and would be able to easily extrapolate the persons involved I would be referring to in any comments I made.

In general, I can just say that among older members of the Church, whether convert or cradle, there has seemed to be pretty much an constant wincing during the Metropolitan's time in power.

Like most things, this is not bound up in a singular issue, like the culture wars. All anyone has to do is to speak with more than a few OCA Priests and persons who have been active within the Church politic for sometime to get an idea about the sources of hope and frustration with the Metropolitan.

The "culture wars" have just become the easiest to articulate and to understand by many who are not privy or care to be about the problems which have been growing within the OCA as of late (and historically, I don't want to suggest there much new under the sun).

Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Cognomen on July 13, 2012, 03:32:21 PM
Thanks for the explanation.  I think I understand a bit better now.  I'm a bit too close to the center to easily pick up on the broader perspective.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: serb1389 on July 13, 2012, 06:20:13 PM
Peter is absolutely right, especially in his first & second points.  I've had the blessing of BEING at the Synod in Constantinople & it was beyond brotherly.  The Patriarch was like a Papou & The bishops were like his grandchildren.  He took them out to a museum, just to give them a cultural break from the meetings & etc.  It was very kind & gentle.  He does though emanate authority, as a hierarch of the Ecumenical Throne should. 

I've never understood what the OCA's Holy Synod's problem was with Metropolitan Jonah; there are plenty of Synods across the world and through history that were led by a primate who isn't prone to collaborate with his fellow hierarchs.  How much collaborating does any one think Patriarch Bartholomew does with the Holy and Sacred Synod of Constantinople,  unlike his predecessor who exhibited a humble and submissive persona?  Not too much is my guess.
That's only your guess. You don't know. Besides, I don't think it quite fair to compare the EP's synod with the synod of the OCA. Each synod has its own personality.

Was His Eminence forced to resign because he is a political conservative and all the members of the Synod are liberals?  Hard to believe, if that is the case.  Yet, how could each member of the Synod be so opposed to his primatial leadership, that they would unanimously vote to force his resignation?
Yes, the unanimity says a lot of things that just a majority vote does not say.

No one has even alleged that that His Eminence violated canons in his primatial leadership, or that he lacks spirituality.  Thus, I would beg all of you with influence in the OCA, and all common members of the OCA, to lobby in support of fair treatment of His Eminence in retirement.
I'm not aware that Metr. Jonah is retiring. It's quite likely that he'll accept another episcopal assignment. Regardless of what you say in speculation about how he may act as a former primate, I have more faith in his maturity than that.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: serb1389 on July 13, 2012, 07:43:21 PM
 I have moved all discussion of abortion & culture wars into a new thread in the Free-For-All section:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=45832.0

I have kept the non-abortion discussion of culture wars here as it does not detract TOO much from the OP, but I definitely do not want it to become its own discussion, unless it's in a new thread.  Having a few posts that veer off is OK, having a whole separate discussion is not. 

It would be my preference that this thread strictly deals with Met./Hierarch/Bishop Jonah & the OP. 

-Serb1389. General Fora Moderator
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Cognomen on July 13, 2012, 07:55:22 PM
It would be my preference that this thread strictly deals with Met./Hierarch/Bishop Jonah & the OP. 

-Serb1389. General Fora Moderator

Ok.  Now to the OP:


It has been reported on the Yahoo Orthodox Forum and on the MOnomahkos blog that Met.Jonah has resigned..any truth to this?

Yes, Met. Jonah has, in fact, resigned.

/thread


 :-*
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Basil 320 on July 13, 2012, 08:32:09 PM
Peter is absolutely right, especially in his first & second points.  I've had the blessing of BEING at the Synod in Constantinople & it was beyond brotherly.  The Patriarch was like a Papou & The bishops were like his grandchildren.  He took them out to a museum, just to give them a cultural break from the meetings & etc.  It was very kind & gentle.  He does though emanate authority, as a hierarch of the Ecumenical Throne should.  

I've never understood what the OCA's Holy Synod's problem was with Metropolitan Jonah; there are plenty of Synods across the world and through history that were led by a primate who isn't prone to collaborate with his fellow hierarchs.  How much collaborating does any one think Patriarch Bartholomew does with the Holy and Sacred Synod of Constantinople,  unlike his predecessor who exhibited a humble and submissive persona?  Not too much is my guess.
That's only your guess. You don't know. Besides, I don't think it quite fair to compare the EP's synod with the synod of the OCA. Each synod has its own personality.

Was His Eminence forced to resign because he is a political conservative and all the members of the Synod are liberals?  Hard to believe, if that is the case.  Yet, how could each member of the Synod be so opposed to his primatial leadership, that they would unanimously vote to force his resignation?
Yes, the unanimity says a lot of things that just a majority vote does not say.

No one has even alleged that that His Eminence violated canons in his primatial leadership, or that he lacks spirituality.  Thus, I would beg all of you with influence in the OCA, and all common members of the OCA, to lobby in support of fair treatment of His Eminence in retirement.
I'm not aware that Metr. Jonah is retiring. It's quite likely that he'll accept another episcopal assignment. Regardless of what you say in speculation about how he may act as a former primate, I have more faith in his maturity than that.

I don't necessarily disagree with you or Peter, but I would add, Patriarchs/Primates/Heads, are people, and have discernible differences in their personal administrative styles.  Patriarch Bartholomew is a strong administrator and an aggressive Patriarch.  He demands personal loyalty beyond what would commonly be considered to be typically expected.  I think his aggressive style is what fires up those on this forum and elsewhere who demonstrate lack of respect for the ancient canonical privileges of the Ecumenical Patriarch.  But his predecessor, Patriarch Dimitrios, of Blessed Memory, was the opposite, a humble man whose Christ-like humility was obvious just looking at him.  (I was moved when he entered Constitution Hall in Washington D.C. to celebrate the Hierarchal Divine Liturgy during the first pastoral visit of an Ecumenical Patriarch to the Western Hemisphere in 1990.)  During his patriarchy, the Holy Synod was strong led by Metropolitan Meliton of the Senior See of Chalcedon, later Metropolitan Chrysostom, and still later Metropolitan Joakim of Mitileni, and the current Patriarch, Metropolitan Bartholomew of Chalcedon, during the last few years of +Dimitrios' tenure, while he served as the Director of the  Patriarch's Personal Office, the office which handles the patriarch's responsibilities in pan-Orthodox matters.  +Dimitrios' predecessor, Patriarch Athenagoras, of Blessed Memory, was a dominant leader too.  My point is, it is as much the personality of the person of the patriarch, as it is the position he holds.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Basil 320 on July 15, 2012, 04:30:05 PM
There was a "Jonah" commemorated during the Divine Liturgy today.  I do not now if this is the patron saint to whom His Eminence is devoted.  If he is, "Eis Polla Eti, Despota." While we pray that the OCA's Holy Synod and the Metropolitan Council honors him with a life long salary and routine benefits, after all, he was duly elected to the OCA's primatial throne, a position he did not solicit, and did not violate canons during his tenure.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 16, 2012, 01:17:29 AM
There was a "Jonah" commemorated during the Divine Liturgy today.  I do not now if this is the patron saint to whom His Eminence is devoted.  If he is, "Eis Polla Eti, Despota." While we pray that the OCA's Holy Synod and the Metropolitan Council honors him with a life long salary and routine benefits, after all, he was duly elected to the OCA's primatial throne, a position he did not solicit, and did not violate canons during his tenure.
and one he was actually elected to by the people, unlike his predecessors...
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Seraphim98 on July 16, 2012, 11:40:26 AM
I just read this in Abbot Tryphon's morning blog:
Quote
If we trust God and pray for our bishops, the Holy Spirit will guide them in their roll as our shepherds, the Church will stay the course, and the "gates of hell shall not prevail against her (Matthew 16:18)".

I know here and elsewhere I've been quick to question the synod's motives in asking for asking for Met. Jonah's resignation, just short of making accusations.  But this consideration puts a different completion on things….have I been trusting God on this….have I earnestly prayed for the Holy Synod…well If I haven't and they messed up in some way…then who bears at least some of the responsibility for that….me. It is incongruous for me to complain/suggest that the synod may not have done it's job properly with respect to Metropolitan Jonah if I have not done mine in prayer with respect to the Holy Synod.

I still do not understand why they did what they did, and still feel a great deal of admiration for Metropolitan Jonah and hope he will be given a good diocese over which to preside and not just put out to pasture as it were.  That said, in my zeal for the offense I felt towards Met. Jonah, I sinned with respect to the Synod…very willing to entertain accusations in my heart if not explicitly with my words. I do not know if they have done well or not with regard to their decision. What I do know is I did not do well with regard to my responsibility to pray for them. Forgive me.

Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: son of vojvodina on July 16, 2012, 12:55:26 PM
Very sad and disconcerting, I really felt he was taking the Church in the right direction.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: brittrossiter on July 16, 2012, 02:12:22 PM
My bishop, +Matthias, has today published a very lengthy new explanation about the reasons why the Holy Synod requested that +Jonah resign, and providing much more detail about the reasons behind the Holy Synod's action.  

A snippet:

"Our request for Metropolitan Jonah’s resignation, or that he take a leave of absence for treatment, came at the end of a rather long list of questionable, unilateral decisions and actions, demonstrating the inability of the Metropolitan to always be truthful and accountable to his peers.  The Metropolitan’s freely-chosen resignation has been characterized by him and others as the result of politics and internal discord among the members of the Holy Synod.  Quite to the contrary, the other members of the Holy Synod stand firmly together in our unanimous astonishment at the Metropolitan’s actions.  We cannot stress enough that while the most recent events are likely the most dangerous for the Church, these represent only the latest in a long series of poor choices that have caused harm to our Church.  We understand and agree that an ability to work or not work well with others, or a challenged administrative skill set, or Metropolitan Jonah’s refusal to comply with the recommendations of the treatment facility, while not the reasons for his requested resignation, were fundamentally related to the consequences of his actions."

http://domoca.org/news_120716_1.html
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: PrincessMommy on July 16, 2012, 02:27:50 PM
My bishop, +Matthias, has today published a very lengthy new explanation about the reasons why the Holy Synod requested that +Jonah resign, and providing much more detail about the reasons behind the Holy Synod's action.  

A snippet:

"Our request for Metropolitan Jonah’s resignation, or that he take a leave of absence for treatment, came at the end of a rather long list of questionable, unilateral decisions and actions, demonstrating the inability of the Metropolitan to always be truthful and accountable to his peers.  The Metropolitan’s freely-chosen resignation has been characterized by him and others as the result of politics and internal discord among the members of the Holy Synod.  Quite to the contrary, the other members of the Holy Synod stand firmly together in our unanimous astonishment at the Metropolitan’s actions.  We cannot stress enough that while the most recent events are likely the most dangerous for the Church, these represent only the latest in a long series of poor choices that have caused harm to our Church.  We understand and agree that an ability to work or not work well with others, or a challenged administrative skill set, or Metropolitan Jonah’s refusal to comply with the recommendations of the treatment facility, while not the reasons for his requested resignation, were fundamentally related to the consequences of his actions."

http://domoca.org/news_120716_1.html

Thank you for bringing this to our attention. 
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: HabteSelassie on July 16, 2012, 04:05:48 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

This was sad news to hear of all this controversy.  The Church is a human place, full of our human experience, all the ups and downs.  We then celebrate our accomplishes together, and grieve our losses together, as one body, one family, as the human body of Christ.

I say this as a convert, but perhaps it was a bit premature to enthrone an underexperienced convert to such a ranking position of leadership? The Church has so many theological and cultural ins and outs, I would simply feel uncomfortable if a convert like myself, no matter how devout or involved, were to take the helm of leadership.  I trust God in all decision, especially in electing our blessed Clergies, so I don't necessarily doubt the decisions, so much as if my own Metropolitan or Patriarch were a convert, I would be constantly praying that God grant him the wisdom, strength, and depth of character to navigate the world of priests.  I have spent a lot of time close to clergy, and I've had the privilege to sit in on several meetings with bishops about church  business, and in all honesty, its such a laborious work, that I am always in admiration.  I've learned we call our priests Father because they are very much like earthly fathers in our lives.

Dads have to navigate a world of jealous and bickering children, of immature and selfish demands, of sincerely mending broken hearts, of being a shoulder to cry on, and while at the same time having to always be DAD, and so that means tough love, laying down the law, leading by direct and tangible example of doing everything first and showing by example who the children should act.  The priests are always in the middle of our lives, and I respect them so much for what they do.  I pray that the best leadership in the inward spirit of  a man, and not the outward are enthroned as our leaders.  I pray that God help us all, as we have these transitions, indeed in Coptic Alexandria as well as here in the Orthodox Church of America.  

If another convert takes the helm, let us continue in sincere and supportive prayer for him, that God grants him the strength of character to hold it down in his seat and office, with the rugged and yet tender tenacity of the holy and blessed Saint Athanasius :)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on July 16, 2012, 04:20:31 PM
My bishop, +Matthias, has today published a very lengthy new explanation about the reasons why the Holy Synod requested that +Jonah resign, and providing much more detail about the reasons behind the Holy Synod's action.  

A snippet:

"Our request for Metropolitan Jonah’s resignation, or that he take a leave of absence for treatment, came at the end of a rather long list of questionable, unilateral decisions and actions, demonstrating the inability of the Metropolitan to always be truthful and accountable to his peers.  The Metropolitan’s freely-chosen resignation has been characterized by him and others as the result of politics and internal discord among the members of the Holy Synod.  Quite to the contrary, the other members of the Holy Synod stand firmly together in our unanimous astonishment at the Metropolitan’s actions.  We cannot stress enough that while the most recent events are likely the most dangerous for the Church, these represent only the latest in a long series of poor choices that have caused harm to our Church.  We understand and agree that an ability to work or not work well with others, or a challenged administrative skill set, or Metropolitan Jonah’s refusal to comply with the recommendations of the treatment facility, while not the reasons for his requested resignation, were fundamentally related to the consequences of his actions."

http://domoca.org/news_120716_1.html

The same letter was also published at OCA.ORG coming this time in the name of the Holy Synod. The reason given for the publication of this letter was stated in the opening paragraph:

"We, the Holy Synod of Bishops of the Orthodox Church in America, have hesitated to release further details surrounding the resignation of Metropolitan Jonah as Primate of our Church, this in a desire to preserve his dignity and to prevent further harm to an innocent party. We did this knowing there would be appeals for additional information regarding our decision. We also harbored some hope that Metropolitan Jonah would show a willingness to accept responsibility for his actions and failures to act. However, things said and written by Metropolitan Jonah since his resignation have demonstrated that he is not accepting that responsibility." (my emphasis)

http://oca.org/PDF/NEWS/2012/2012-0716-holy-synod-statement.pdf (http://oca.org/PDF/NEWS/2012/2012-0716-holy-synod-statement.pdf)
Title: Holy Synod Releases Official Statement about Met. Jonah's Resignation
Post by: JamesR on July 16, 2012, 04:43:43 PM
Holy Synod Statement (http://oca.org/PDF/NEWS/2012/2012-0716-holy-synod-statement.pdf)

Wow...Is this true? Metropolitan Jonah was involved in sexual corruption within the Church? Or is this just propoganda from the Synod to scapegoat Jonah? I have trouble believing this. Yesterday at Liturgy the Dean of the Orthodox Churches from Oregon was visiting my parish and said that he knew Metropolitan Jonah and they actually went fishing together in Alaska and he was such a great guy.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: primuspilus on July 16, 2012, 04:51:49 PM
Wow. Basically the Synod opened fire in the Metropolitan's reputation.

I dont think they should have released this.

PP
Title: Re: Holy Synod Releases Official Statement about Met. Jonah's Resignation
Post by: primuspilus on July 16, 2012, 04:54:06 PM
I think that it was more of, he knew about it and did not follow the synod's requests on the matter.

PP
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Zenovia on July 16, 2012, 05:00:52 PM
My bishop, +Matthias, has today published a very lengthy new explanation about the reasons why the Holy Synod requested that +Jonah resign, and providing much more detail about the reasons behind the Holy Synod's action.  

A snippet:

"Our request for Metropolitan Jonah’s resignation, or that he take a leave of absence for treatment, came at the end of a rather long list of questionable, unilateral decisions and actions, demonstrating the inability of the Metropolitan to always be truthful and accountable to his peers.  The Metropolitan’s freely-chosen resignation has been characterized by him and others as the result of politics and internal discord among the members of the Holy Synod.  Quite to the contrary, the other members of the Holy Synod stand firmly together in our unanimous astonishment at the Metropolitan’s actions.  We cannot stress enough that while the most recent events are likely the most dangerous for the Church, these represent only the latest in a long series of poor choices that have caused harm to our Church.  We understand and agree that an ability to work or not work well with others, or a challenged administrative skill set, or Metropolitan Jonah’s refusal to comply with the recommendations of the treatment facility, while not the reasons for his requested resignation, were fundamentally related to the consequences of his actions."

http://domoca.org/news_120716_1.html

Thank you for bringing this to our attention. 

Your bishop is doing a nice job of denigrating Metropolitan Jonah without saying why he showed a lack of administrative skills, and  why he refused to comply with the recommendations of the treatment facility?  Also, in which ways did he show himself not to be  truthful and accountable to his peers?  By not stating these facts and giving others the chance to reach their own conclusions about the Metropolitan, and instead saying it would affect an innocent person, he is subtly implying that the Metropolitan is guilty of doing something to an innocent person without stating any facts.   I don't think this speaks well, either for your bishop, or for his peers.

From what was written, I see the problems with Metropolitan Jonah to be more of a personal nature,  than an actual concern for the people in the OCA and what would be best for them spiritually.   :(
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 16, 2012, 05:02:39 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

This was sad news to hear of all this controversy.  The Church is a human place, full of our human experience, all the ups and downs.  We then celebrate our accomplishes together, and grieve our losses together, as one body, one family, as the human body of Christ.

I say this as a convert, but perhaps it was a bit premature to enthrone an underexperienced convert to such a ranking position of leadership? The Church has so many theological and cultural ins and outs, I would simply feel uncomfortable if a convert like myself, no matter how devout or involved, were to take the helm of leadership.  I trust God in all decision, especially in electing our blessed Clergies, so I don't necessarily doubt the decisions, so much as if my own Metropolitan or Patriarch were a convert, I would be constantly praying that God grant him the wisdom, strength, and depth of character to navigate the world of priests.  I have spent a lot of time close to clergy, and I've had the privilege to sit in on several meetings with bishops about church  business, and in all honesty, its such a laborious work, that I am always in admiration.  I've learned we call our priests Father because they are very much like earthly fathers in our lives.

Dads have to navigate a world of jealous and bickering children, of immature and selfish demands, of sincerely mending broken hearts, of being a shoulder to cry on, and while at the same time having to always be DAD, and so that means tough love, laying down the law, leading by direct and tangible example of doing everything first and showing by example who the children should act.  The priests are always in the middle of our lives, and I respect them so much for what they do.  I pray that the best leadership in the inward spirit of  a man, and not the outward are enthroned as our leaders.  I pray that God help us all, as we have these transitions, indeed in Coptic Alexandria as well as here in the Orthodox Church of America.  

If another convert takes the helm, let us continue in sincere and supportive prayer for him, that God grants him the strength of character to hold it down in his seat and office, with the rugged and yet tender tenacity of the holy and blessed Saint Athanasius :)

stay blessed,
habte selassie

His Beatitude (is this still right, I recall reading somewhere that it's now His Eminence but I don't believe it was on the OCA website?) was not a new convert when he was ordained a bishop.  It was in 1978 that he was received into the Church, via a Moscow Patriarchate parish in San Diego.   In '85, he graduated with a Masters in Divinity from St. Vladimir's, and in '88 with a Masters in Theology in dogmatic theology.  Then he was a novice at Valaam for a while before he founded St. John's Monastery, where he was abbot for over a decade.

Whatever problems there were with His Beatitude's tenure as primate, and with His Beatitude, they were not due to too little time in the Orhtodox Church.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 16, 2012, 05:02:40 PM
My bishop, +Matthias, has today published a very lengthy new explanation about the reasons why the Holy Synod requested that +Jonah resign, and providing much more detail about the reasons behind the Holy Synod's action.  

A snippet:

"Our request for Metropolitan Jonah’s resignation, or that he take a leave of absence for treatment, came at the end of a rather long list of questionable, unilateral decisions and actions, demonstrating the inability of the Metropolitan to always be truthful and accountable to his peers.  The Metropolitan’s freely-chosen resignation has been characterized by him and others as the result of politics and internal discord among the members of the Holy Synod.  Quite to the contrary, the other members of the Holy Synod stand firmly together in our unanimous astonishment at the Metropolitan’s actions.  We cannot stress enough that while the most recent events are likely the most dangerous for the Church, these represent only the latest in a long series of poor choices that have caused harm to our Church.  We understand and agree that an ability to work or not work well with others, or a challenged administrative skill set, or Metropolitan Jonah’s refusal to comply with the recommendations of the treatment facility, while not the reasons for his requested resignation, were fundamentally related to the consequences of his actions."

http://domoca.org/news_120716_1.html

The same letter was also published at OCA.ORG coming this time in the name of the Holy Synod. The reason given for the publication of this letter was stated in the opening paragraph:

"We, the Holy Synod of Bishops of the Orthodox Church in America, have hesitated to release further details surrounding the resignation of Metropolitan Jonah as Primate of our Church, this in a desire to preserve his dignity and to prevent further harm to an innocent party. We did this knowing there would be appeals for additional information regarding our decision. We also harbored some hope that Metropolitan Jonah would show a willingness to accept responsibility for his actions and failures to act. However, things said and written by Metropolitan Jonah since his resignation have demonstrated that he is not accepting that responsibility." (my emphasis)

http://oca.org/PDF/NEWS/2012/2012-0716-holy-synod-statement.pdf (http://oca.org/PDF/NEWS/2012/2012-0716-holy-synod-statement.pdf)

Where, exactly, did His Beatitude write anything since he resigned?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 16, 2012, 05:02:40 PM
Wow. Basically the Synod opened fire in the Metropolitan's reputation.

I dont think they should have released this.

PP

So they should have allowed people to continue to accuse all of the bishops of the Synod of having it out for His Beatitude, and of getting rid of him because he opposes abortion and gay marriage (with the obvious implication that the other bishops therefore support abortion and gay marriage)?  So they should have allowed the reputation of every other bishop in the Synod to be besmirched?
Title: Re: Holy Synod Releases Official Statement about Met. Jonah's Resignation
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 16, 2012, 05:02:40 PM
I think that it was more of, he knew about it and did not follow the synod's requests on the matter.

PP

No.  It is: he knew about it and did not follow OCA policies on the matter.
Title: Re: Holy Synod Releases Official Statement about Met. Jonah's Resignation
Post by: LizaSymonenko on July 16, 2012, 05:12:38 PM

If that is true, that he turned a blind eye....then I feel sorry for him.

Title: Re: Holy Synod Releases Official Statement about Met. Jonah's Resignation
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 16, 2012, 05:14:13 PM
His Beatitude Metropolitan Jonah had, unfortunately, a cloud of expectation surrounding him, given previous scandals with previous Metropolitans. I think many saw what they hoped to see, and now they have the disappointment. Our bishops and clergy are men like the rest of us, having various strengths and weaknesses. Not all men consecrated bishops are able to execute the duties of their office in a way that is beneficial, though if they were in other positions such as supporting roles, they would do much good.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on July 16, 2012, 05:19:24 PM
Wow. Basically the Synod opened fire in the Metropolitan's reputation.

I dont think they should have released this.

PP

They had to release it because +Jonah supporters were attacking the Holy Synod as a whole and individual bishops by name. They were also threatening all sorts of actions, to include schism, if the Holy Synod did not tell the world the reasons behind the resignation.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: HabteSelassie on July 16, 2012, 05:20:36 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


This was sad news to hear of all this controversy.  The Church is a human place, full of our human experience, all the ups and downs.  We then celebrate our accomplishes together, and grieve our losses together, as one body, one family, as the human body of Christ.

I say this as a convert, but perhaps it was a bit premature to enthrone an underexperienced convert to such a ranking position of leadership? The Church has so many theological and cultural ins and outs, I would simply feel uncomfortable if a convert like myself, no matter how devout or involved, were to take the helm of leadership.  I trust God in all decision, especially in electing our blessed Clergies, so I don't necessarily doubt the decisions, so much as if my own Metropolitan or Patriarch were a convert, I would be constantly praying that God grant him the wisdom, strength, and depth of character to navigate the world of priests.  I have spent a lot of time close to clergy, and I've had the privilege to sit in on several meetings with bishops about church  business, and in all honesty, its such a laborious work, that I am always in admiration.  I've learned we call our priests Father because they are very much like earthly fathers in our lives.

Dads have to navigate a world of jealous and bickering children, of immature and selfish demands, of sincerely mending broken hearts, of being a shoulder to cry on, and while at the same time having to always be DAD, and so that means tough love, laying down the law, leading by direct and tangible example of doing everything first and showing by example who the children should act.  The priests are always in the middle of our lives, and I respect them so much for what they do.  I pray that the best leadership in the inward spirit of  a man, and not the outward are enthroned as our leaders.  I pray that God help us all, as we have these transitions, indeed in Coptic Alexandria as well as here in the Orthodox Church of America.  

If another convert takes the helm, let us continue in sincere and supportive prayer for him, that God grants him the strength of character to hold it down in his seat and office, with the rugged and yet tender tenacity of the holy and blessed Saint Athanasius :)

stay blessed,
habte selassie

His Beatitude (is this still right, I recall reading somewhere that it's now His Eminence but I don't believe it was on the OCA website?) was not a new convert when he was ordained a bishop.  It was in 1978 that he was received into the Church, via a Moscow Patriarchate parish in San Diego.   In '85, he graduated with a Masters in Divinity from St. Vladimir's, and in '88 with a Masters in Theology in dogmatic theology.  Then he was a novice at Valaam for a while before he founded St. John's Monastery, where he was abbot for over a decade.

Whatever problems there were with His Beatitude's tenure as primate, and with His Beatitude, they were not due to too little time in the Orhtodox Church.

I wasn't suggesting that he was new to Orthodox, but we was new to the rank of Bishop, I understand he had only been elevated to bishop weeks before his enthronement, that is what I meant by underexperienced.  As to the issue of ranking clergy being converts, I meant for that analysis to be separate from the lack of leading experience comment.  Again, I don't mean to disrespect or be sacrilegious to the clergies, I respect God's decisions in that regard.  My comment about Bishops who are converts was not to belittle their value or negate their worth, rather for us laity who serve in parishes under their jurisdiction should be with them (a) patient [i.e. flexible], (b) humble, and (c) in constant prayer for them.  Orthodox is a complicated place and there is a lot of subtlety going on, and as a convert, it seems that I wouldn't ever want that responsibility, and further, by his resignation, it appears Bishop Jonah felt the same way ;)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on July 16, 2012, 05:22:09 PM
My bishop, +Matthias, has today published a very lengthy new explanation about the reasons why the Holy Synod requested that +Jonah resign, and providing much more detail about the reasons behind the Holy Synod's action.  

A snippet:

"Our request for Metropolitan Jonah’s resignation, or that he take a leave of absence for treatment, came at the end of a rather long list of questionable, unilateral decisions and actions, demonstrating the inability of the Metropolitan to always be truthful and accountable to his peers.  The Metropolitan’s freely-chosen resignation has been characterized by him and others as the result of politics and internal discord among the members of the Holy Synod.  Quite to the contrary, the other members of the Holy Synod stand firmly together in our unanimous astonishment at the Metropolitan’s actions.  We cannot stress enough that while the most recent events are likely the most dangerous for the Church, these represent only the latest in a long series of poor choices that have caused harm to our Church.  We understand and agree that an ability to work or not work well with others, or a challenged administrative skill set, or Metropolitan Jonah’s refusal to comply with the recommendations of the treatment facility, while not the reasons for his requested resignation, were fundamentally related to the consequences of his actions."

http://domoca.org/news_120716_1.html

Thank you for bringing this to our attention. 

Your bishop is doing a nice job of denigrating Metropolitan Jonah without saying why he showed a lack of administrative skills, and  why he refused to comply with the recommendations of the treatment facility?  Also, in which ways did he show himself not to be  truthful and accountable to his peers?  By not stating these facts and giving others the chance to reach their own conclusions about the Metropolitan, and instead saying it would affect an innocent person, he is subtly implying that the Metropolitan is guilty of doing something to an innocent person without stating any facts.   I don't think this speaks well, either for your bishop, or for his peers.

From what was written, I see the problems with Metropolitan Jonah to be more of a personal nature,  than an actual concern for the people in the OCA and what would be best for them spiritually.   :(

You would have to read the entire letter to understand the particulars of the Holy Synod's case against +Jonah.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on July 16, 2012, 05:25:27 PM
My bishop, +Matthias, has today published a very lengthy new explanation about the reasons why the Holy Synod requested that +Jonah resign, and providing much more detail about the reasons behind the Holy Synod's action.  

A snippet:

"Our request for Metropolitan Jonah’s resignation, or that he take a leave of absence for treatment, came at the end of a rather long list of questionable, unilateral decisions and actions, demonstrating the inability of the Metropolitan to always be truthful and accountable to his peers.  The Metropolitan’s freely-chosen resignation has been characterized by him and others as the result of politics and internal discord among the members of the Holy Synod.  Quite to the contrary, the other members of the Holy Synod stand firmly together in our unanimous astonishment at the Metropolitan’s actions.  We cannot stress enough that while the most recent events are likely the most dangerous for the Church, these represent only the latest in a long series of poor choices that have caused harm to our Church.  We understand and agree that an ability to work or not work well with others, or a challenged administrative skill set, or Metropolitan Jonah’s refusal to comply with the recommendations of the treatment facility, while not the reasons for his requested resignation, were fundamentally related to the consequences of his actions."

http://domoca.org/news_120716_1.html

The same letter was also published at OCA.ORG coming this time in the name of the Holy Synod. The reason given for the publication of this letter was stated in the opening paragraph:

"We, the Holy Synod of Bishops of the Orthodox Church in America, have hesitated to release further details surrounding the resignation of Metropolitan Jonah as Primate of our Church, this in a desire to preserve his dignity and to prevent further harm to an innocent party. We did this knowing there would be appeals for additional information regarding our decision. We also harbored some hope that Metropolitan Jonah would show a willingness to accept responsibility for his actions and failures to act. However, things said and written by Metropolitan Jonah since his resignation have demonstrated that he is not accepting that responsibility." (my emphasis)

http://oca.org/PDF/NEWS/2012/2012-0716-holy-synod-statement.pdf (http://oca.org/PDF/NEWS/2012/2012-0716-holy-synod-statement.pdf)

Where, exactly, did His Beatitude write anything since he resigned?

I cannot find anything that he has said publicly. However, plenty of his supporters have said plenty in public, including many hiding behind fake Internet names, citing information that could have come only from +Jonah.
Title: Re: Holy Synod Releases Official Statement about Met. Jonah's Resignation
Post by: PrincessMommy on July 16, 2012, 05:36:44 PM
I think that it was more of, he knew about it and did not follow the synod's requests on the matter.

PP

This is exactly how I read it too.  I think the Freeh report on Penn State must have made them sit up and pay attention too.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: PrincessMommy on July 16, 2012, 05:38:36 PM
My bishop, +Matthias, has today published a very lengthy new explanation about the reasons why the Holy Synod requested that +Jonah resign, and providing much more detail about the reasons behind the Holy Synod's action.  

A snippet:

"Our request for Metropolitan Jonah’s resignation, or that he take a leave of absence for treatment, came at the end of a rather long list of questionable, unilateral decisions and actions, demonstrating the inability of the Metropolitan to always be truthful and accountable to his peers.  The Metropolitan’s freely-chosen resignation has been characterized by him and others as the result of politics and internal discord among the members of the Holy Synod.  Quite to the contrary, the other members of the Holy Synod stand firmly together in our unanimous astonishment at the Metropolitan’s actions.  We cannot stress enough that while the most recent events are likely the most dangerous for the Church, these represent only the latest in a long series of poor choices that have caused harm to our Church.  We understand and agree that an ability to work or not work well with others, or a challenged administrative skill set, or Metropolitan Jonah’s refusal to comply with the recommendations of the treatment facility, while not the reasons for his requested resignation, were fundamentally related to the consequences of his actions."

http://domoca.org/news_120716_1.html

The same letter was also published at OCA.ORG coming this time in the name of the Holy Synod. The reason given for the publication of this letter was stated in the opening paragraph:

"We, the Holy Synod of Bishops of the Orthodox Church in America, have hesitated to release further details surrounding the resignation of Metropolitan Jonah as Primate of our Church, this in a desire to preserve his dignity and to prevent further harm to an innocent party. We did this knowing there would be appeals for additional information regarding our decision. We also harbored some hope that Metropolitan Jonah would show a willingness to accept responsibility for his actions and failures to act. However, things said and written by Metropolitan Jonah since his resignation have demonstrated that he is not accepting that responsibility." (my emphasis)

http://oca.org/PDF/NEWS/2012/2012-0716-holy-synod-statement.pdf (http://oca.org/PDF/NEWS/2012/2012-0716-holy-synod-statement.pdf)

Where, exactly, did His Beatitude write anything since he resigned?

I would like to know this too.   As far as I know he hasn't spoken publicly since his resignation.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: gzt on July 16, 2012, 05:43:01 PM
Could be things said and written to the Synod.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Zenovia on July 16, 2012, 05:45:25 PM
Wow. Basically the Synod opened fire in the Metropolitan's reputation.

I dont think they should have released this.

PP

I'm going to assume the 'rationale' behind the destruction of the Metropolitan's reputation is that they are doing it for the good of the Church and that  the end justifies the means.   It's the concept of 'economia' going haywire.   Well I have news for anyone who thinks this way, the Church is the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit doesn't work through sin...so no matter how one looks at it, to slander and calumniate another person is  a sin. >:(
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Marc1152 on July 16, 2012, 05:47:21 PM
My bishop, +Matthias, has today published a very lengthy new explanation about the reasons why the Holy Synod requested that +Jonah resign, and providing much more detail about the reasons behind the Holy Synod's action.  

A snippet:

"Our request for Metropolitan Jonah’s resignation, or that he take a leave of absence for treatment, came at the end of a rather long list of questionable, unilateral decisions and actions, demonstrating the inability of the Metropolitan to always be truthful and accountable to his peers.  The Metropolitan’s freely-chosen resignation has been characterized by him and others as the result of politics and internal discord among the members of the Holy Synod.  Quite to the contrary, the other members of the Holy Synod stand firmly together in our unanimous astonishment at the Metropolitan’s actions.  We cannot stress enough that while the most recent events are likely the most dangerous for the Church, these represent only the latest in a long series of poor choices that have caused harm to our Church.  We understand and agree that an ability to work or not work well with others, or a challenged administrative skill set, or Metropolitan Jonah’s refusal to comply with the recommendations of the treatment facility, while not the reasons for his requested resignation, were fundamentally related to the consequences of his actions."

http://domoca.org/news_120716_1.html

What did they want him "treated' for?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 16, 2012, 06:05:03 PM
Wow. Basically the Synod opened fire in the Metropolitan's reputation.

I dont think they should have released this.

PP

I'm going to assume the 'rationale' behind the destruction of the Metropolitan's reputation is that they are doing it for the good of the Church and that  the end justifies the means.   It's the concept of 'economia' going haywire.   Well I have news for anyone who thinks this way, the Church is the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit doesn't work through sin...so no matter how one looks at it, to slander and calumniate another person is  a sin. >:(
Zenovia,

This is a very serious matter besetting the Orthodox Church in America right now. Your continued judgment of the Holy Synod of the OCA based merely on hearsay and gross conjecture is very insensitive and not at all in keeping with what we need to do at this moment. In fact, it's exactly the kind of calumny you condemn. Therefore, speaking only as a poster, I'm asking you to back off and refrain from submitting any more posts like this.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: witega on July 16, 2012, 06:09:26 PM
You would have to read the entire letter to understand the particulars of the Holy Synod's case against +Jonah.

Point of order: It's not really a 'case against +Jonah' because the Holy Synod has (once again) decided to forgo canonical procedures and actually hold a spiritual court. At some point, the question the Holy Synod really should address is why, if they have actual an actual case against Metropolitan Jonah (or Metropolitan Herman, or Metropolitan Theodosius, or Bishop Nicholai of Alaska or...), they never actually prosecute that case in the manner prescribed by the canons of the Church (or indeed the statutes of the OCA). Canonical due process protects not only the accused but the accusers by bringing the accusations out for actual scrutiny by all sides. By avoiding following canonical process, the bishops of the Synod are basically asking for the matter to be tried 'in the court of public opinion', with rumor and gossip flying and their own motives and claims just thrown into the mix.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 16, 2012, 06:14:50 PM
+Matthias and the Synod did the right thing I think in releasing that statement. I think many of us, still scared and reeling from the previous scandals (and abuse we or unnamed acquaintances suffered) and we desire some amount of transparency.

One can release an explanation behind a move like this which affects those of us who are members of the OCA. But that explanation doesn't have to release additional names or information that may endanger other parties involved in whatever issues caused the request for retirement.

I am glad it was our own Bishop Matthias who first released this information. From the brief times I've gotten to speak with him and from what I've heard from others, he is a good man and a good successor to Archbishop Job.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Basil 320 on July 16, 2012, 06:19:24 PM
My bishop, +Matthias, has today published a very lengthy new explanation about the reasons why the Holy Synod requested that +Jonah resign, and providing much more detail about the reasons behind the Holy Synod's action.  

A snippet:

"Our request for Metropolitan Jonah’s resignation, or that he take a leave of absence for treatment, came at the end of a rather long list of questionable, unilateral decisions and actions, demonstrating the inability of the Metropolitan to always be truthful and accountable to his peers.  The Metropolitan’s freely-chosen resignation has been characterized by him and others as the result of politics and internal discord among the members of the Holy Synod.  Quite to the contrary, the other members of the Holy Synod stand firmly together in our unanimous astonishment at the Metropolitan’s actions.  We cannot stress enough that while the most recent events are likely the most dangerous for the Church, these represent only the latest in a long series of poor choices that have caused harm to our Church.  We understand and agree that an ability to work or not work well with others, or a challenged administrative skill set, or Metropolitan Jonah’s refusal to comply with the recommendations of the treatment facility, while not the reasons for his requested resignation, were fundamentally related to the consequences of his actions."

http://domoca.org/news_120716_1.html

The same letter was also published at OCA.ORG coming this time in the name of the Holy Synod. The reason given for the publication of this letter was stated in the opening paragraph:

"We, the Holy Synod of Bishops of the Orthodox Church in America, have hesitated to release further details surrounding the resignation of Metropolitan Jonah as Primate of our Church, this in a desire to preserve his dignity and to prevent further harm to an innocent party. We did this knowing there would be appeals for additional information regarding our decision. We also harbored some hope that Metropolitan Jonah would show a willingness to accept responsibility for his actions and failures to act. However, things said and written by Metropolitan Jonah since his resignation have demonstrated that he is not accepting that responsibility." (my emphasis)

http://oca.org/PDF/NEWS/2012/2012-0716-holy-synod-statement.pdf (http://oca.org/PDF/NEWS/2012/2012-0716-holy-synod-statement.pdf)

Where, exactly, did His Beatitude write anything since he resigned?

I cannot find anything that he has said publicly. However, plenty of his supporters have said plenty in public, including many hiding behind fake Internet names, citing information that could have come only from +Jonah.

Would you please provide us with links to where His Eminence's supporters have posted public comments about his resignation?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: pensateomnia on July 16, 2012, 06:29:55 PM
My bishop, +Matthias, has today published a very lengthy new explanation about the reasons why the Holy Synod requested that +Jonah resign, and providing much more detail about the reasons behind the Holy Synod's action.  

A snippet:

"Our request for Metropolitan Jonah’s resignation, or that he take a leave of absence for treatment, came at the end of a rather long list of questionable, unilateral decisions and actions, demonstrating the inability of the Metropolitan to always be truthful and accountable to his peers.  The Metropolitan’s freely-chosen resignation has been characterized by him and others as the result of politics and internal discord among the members of the Holy Synod.  Quite to the contrary, the other members of the Holy Synod stand firmly together in our unanimous astonishment at the Metropolitan’s actions.  We cannot stress enough that while the most recent events are likely the most dangerous for the Church, these represent only the latest in a long series of poor choices that have caused harm to our Church.  We understand and agree that an ability to work or not work well with others, or a challenged administrative skill set, or Metropolitan Jonah’s refusal to comply with the recommendations of the treatment facility, while not the reasons for his requested resignation, were fundamentally related to the consequences of his actions."

http://domoca.org/news_120716_1.html

The same letter was also published at OCA.ORG coming this time in the name of the Holy Synod. The reason given for the publication of this letter was stated in the opening paragraph:

"We, the Holy Synod of Bishops of the Orthodox Church in America, have hesitated to release further details surrounding the resignation of Metropolitan Jonah as Primate of our Church, this in a desire to preserve his dignity and to prevent further harm to an innocent party. We did this knowing there would be appeals for additional information regarding our decision. We also harbored some hope that Metropolitan Jonah would show a willingness to accept responsibility for his actions and failures to act. However, things said and written by Metropolitan Jonah since his resignation have demonstrated that he is not accepting that responsibility." (my emphasis)

http://oca.org/PDF/NEWS/2012/2012-0716-holy-synod-statement.pdf (http://oca.org/PDF/NEWS/2012/2012-0716-holy-synod-statement.pdf)

Where, exactly, did His Beatitude write anything since he resigned?

I cannot find anything that he has said publicly. However, plenty of his supporters have said plenty in public, including many hiding behind fake Internet names, citing information that could have come only from +Jonah.

Would you please provide us with links to where His Eminence's supporters have posted public comments about his resignation?

Read Monomakhos, which has well over 1,000 comments on the matter.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: witega on July 16, 2012, 06:33:02 PM
My bishop, +Matthias, has today published a very lengthy new explanation about the reasons why the Holy Synod requested that +Jonah resign, and providing much more detail about the reasons behind the Holy Synod's action.  

A snippet:

"Our request for Metropolitan Jonah’s resignation, or that he take a leave of absence for treatment, came at the end of a rather long list of questionable, unilateral decisions and actions, demonstrating the inability of the Metropolitan to always be truthful and accountable to his peers.  The Metropolitan’s freely-chosen resignation has been characterized by him and others as the result of politics and internal discord among the members of the Holy Synod.  Quite to the contrary, the other members of the Holy Synod stand firmly together in our unanimous astonishment at the Metropolitan’s actions.  We cannot stress enough that while the most recent events are likely the most dangerous for the Church, these represent only the latest in a long series of poor choices that have caused harm to our Church.  We understand and agree that an ability to work or not work well with others, or a challenged administrative skill set, or Metropolitan Jonah’s refusal to comply with the recommendations of the treatment facility, while not the reasons for his requested resignation, were fundamentally related to the consequences of his actions."

http://domoca.org/news_120716_1.html

The same letter was also published at OCA.ORG coming this time in the name of the Holy Synod. The reason given for the publication of this letter was stated in the opening paragraph:

"We, the Holy Synod of Bishops of the Orthodox Church in America, have hesitated to release further details surrounding the resignation of Metropolitan Jonah as Primate of our Church, this in a desire to preserve his dignity and to prevent further harm to an innocent party. We did this knowing there would be appeals for additional information regarding our decision. We also harbored some hope that Metropolitan Jonah would show a willingness to accept responsibility for his actions and failures to act. However, things said and written by Metropolitan Jonah since his resignation have demonstrated that he is not accepting that responsibility." (my emphasis)

http://oca.org/PDF/NEWS/2012/2012-0716-holy-synod-statement.pdf (http://oca.org/PDF/NEWS/2012/2012-0716-holy-synod-statement.pdf)

Where, exactly, did His Beatitude write anything since he resigned?

I cannot find anything that he has said publicly. However, plenty of his supporters have said plenty in public, including many hiding behind fake Internet names, citing information that could have come only from +Jonah.

Would you please provide us with links to where His Eminence's supporters have posted public comments about his resignation?

Also curious about the claim of information that could have only come from +Jonah? I've been watching the debate on some of the sites where it's gotten decidedly more heated than here and I can't think of any 'facts' (with the caveat that what are fact is obviously part of what's being fiercely debated) that couldn't have come from multiple sources--including of course members of the Synod who are presumably in possession of all the facts.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: JamesR on July 16, 2012, 06:37:12 PM
Is there a chance that Bishop Benjamin of San Francisco/West Coast will become the new metropolitan? He is my local Bishop and I've met him once before and he seems like a really nice man.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 16, 2012, 06:38:14 PM
My bishop, +Matthias, has today published a very lengthy new explanation about the reasons why the Holy Synod requested that +Jonah resign, and providing much more detail about the reasons behind the Holy Synod's action.  

A snippet:

"Our request for Metropolitan Jonah’s resignation, or that he take a leave of absence for treatment, came at the end of a rather long list of questionable, unilateral decisions and actions, demonstrating the inability of the Metropolitan to always be truthful and accountable to his peers.  The Metropolitan’s freely-chosen resignation has been characterized by him and others as the result of politics and internal discord among the members of the Holy Synod.  Quite to the contrary, the other members of the Holy Synod stand firmly together in our unanimous astonishment at the Metropolitan’s actions.  We cannot stress enough that while the most recent events are likely the most dangerous for the Church, these represent only the latest in a long series of poor choices that have caused harm to our Church.  We understand and agree that an ability to work or not work well with others, or a challenged administrative skill set, or Metropolitan Jonah’s refusal to comply with the recommendations of the treatment facility, while not the reasons for his requested resignation, were fundamentally related to the consequences of his actions."

http://domoca.org/news_120716_1.html

The same letter was also published at OCA.ORG coming this time in the name of the Holy Synod. The reason given for the publication of this letter was stated in the opening paragraph:

"We, the Holy Synod of Bishops of the Orthodox Church in America, have hesitated to release further details surrounding the resignation of Metropolitan Jonah as Primate of our Church, this in a desire to preserve his dignity and to prevent further harm to an innocent party. We did this knowing there would be appeals for additional information regarding our decision. We also harbored some hope that Metropolitan Jonah would show a willingness to accept responsibility for his actions and failures to act. However, things said and written by Metropolitan Jonah since his resignation have demonstrated that he is not accepting that responsibility." (my emphasis)

http://oca.org/PDF/NEWS/2012/2012-0716-holy-synod-statement.pdf (http://oca.org/PDF/NEWS/2012/2012-0716-holy-synod-statement.pdf)

Where, exactly, did His Beatitude write anything since he resigned?

I cannot find anything that he has said publicly. However, plenty of his supporters have said plenty in public, including many hiding behind fake Internet names, citing information that could have come only from +Jonah.

Would you please provide us with links to where His Eminence's supporters have posted public comments about his resignation?

Read Monomakhos, which has well over 1,000 comments on the matter.

While I'm sure we were part of the problem, I think monomakhos was a huge part of the vitriolic rumor mill. I don't really think we should rely too much on what is said on there.

There is a difference between feeding (possibly false) rumors and venting frustration in a rant. From what I had read on monomakhos, a lot of it was the former rather than the latter, and sadly I'll admit a lot of it fed my own frustration and anger, even though I knew it was probably B.S.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Zenovia on July 16, 2012, 06:39:01 PM
My bishop, +Matthias, has today published a very lengthy new explanation about the reasons why the Holy Synod requested that +Jonah resign, and providing much more detail about the reasons behind the Holy Synod's action.  

A snippet:

"Our request for Metropolitan Jonah’s resignation, or that he take a leave of absence for treatment, came at the end of a rather long list of questionable, unilateral decisions and actions, demonstrating the inability of the Metropolitan to always be truthful and accountable to his peers.  The Metropolitan’s freely-chosen resignation has been characterized by him and others as the result of politics and internal discord among the members of the Holy Synod.  Quite to the contrary, the other members of the Holy Synod stand firmly together in our unanimous astonishment at the Metropolitan’s actions.  We cannot stress enough that while the most recent events are likely the most dangerous for the Church, these represent only the latest in a long series of poor choices that have caused harm to our Church.  We understand and agree that an ability to work or not work well with others, or a challenged administrative skill set, or Metropolitan Jonah’s refusal to comply with the recommendations of the treatment facility, while not the reasons for his requested resignation, were fundamentally related to the consequences of his actions."

http://domoca.org/news_120716_1.html

The same letter was also published at OCA.ORG coming this time in the name of the Holy Synod. The reason given for the publication of this letter was stated in the opening paragraph:

"We, the Holy Synod of Bishops of the Orthodox Church in America, have hesitated to release further details surrounding the resignation of Metropolitan Jonah as Primate of our Church, this in a desire to preserve his dignity and to prevent further harm to an innocent party. We did this knowing there would be appeals for additional information regarding our decision. We also harbored some hope that Metropolitan Jonah would show a willingness to accept responsibility for his actions and failures to act. However, things said and written by Metropolitan Jonah since his resignation have demonstrated that he is not accepting that responsibility." (my emphasis)

http://oca.org/PDF/NEWS/2012/2012-0716-holy-synod-statement.pdf (http://oca.org/PDF/NEWS/2012/2012-0716-holy-synod-statement.pdf)

Where, exactly, did His Beatitude write anything since he resigned?

I cannot find anything that he has said publicly. However, plenty of his supporters have said plenty in public, including many hiding behind fake Internet names, citing information that could have come only from +Jonah.

Maybe his supporters are in a position where they would have this information.  To believe that the Metropolitan is going out and saying things deliberately, seems very paranoid to me.  The reason I'm saying this is because I have seen these things occur before.  Satan is alive and well, and there is nothing he is more adept at than putting suspicions in people's minds.   >:(
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Melodist on July 16, 2012, 08:41:22 PM
Satan is alive and well, and there is nothing he is more adept at than putting suspicions in people's minds.   >:(

Like planting suspicion in the minds of the faithful that their hierarchs have ousted their metropolitan out of entirely self-serving reasons when that may not be the case?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Melodist on July 16, 2012, 08:50:33 PM
+Matthias and the Synod did the right thing I think in releasing that statement. I think many of us, still scared and reeling from the previous scandals (and abuse we or unnamed acquaintances suffered) and we desire some amount of transparency.

One can release an explanation behind a move like this which affects those of us who are members of the OCA. But that explanation doesn't have to release additional names or information that may endanger other parties involved in whatever issues caused the request for retirement.

I am glad it was our own Bishop Matthias who first released this information. From the brief times I've gotten to speak with him and from what I've heard from others, he is a good man and a good successor to Archbishop Job.

I agree. His grace gave us enough information to know that this isn't simply a case of "the old gaurd" ousting Met Jonah for self serving reasons, and without giving any detailed information about the specifc persons involved.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: kijabeboy03 on July 16, 2012, 08:58:40 PM
Chica, wake up and smell the coffee - the Holy Synod did this because of the lies and gossip people were spreading, to put a stop to it. Eish...

Wow. Basically the Synod opened fire in the Metropolitan's reputation.

I dont think they should have released this.

PP

I'm going to assume the 'rationale' behind the destruction of the Metropolitan's reputation is that they are doing it for the good of the Church and that  the end justifies the means.   It's the concept of 'economia' going haywire.   Well I have news for anyone who thinks this way, the Church is the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit doesn't work through sin...so no matter how one looks at it, to slander and calumniate another person is  a sin. >:(
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on July 16, 2012, 10:35:53 PM
You would have to read the entire letter to understand the particulars of the Holy Synod's case against +Jonah.

Point of order: It's not really a 'case against +Jonah' because the Holy Synod has (once again) decided to forgo canonical procedures and actually hold a spiritual court. At some point, the question the Holy Synod really should address is why, if they have actual an actual case against Metropolitan Jonah (or Metropolitan Herman, or Metropolitan Theodosius, or Bishop Nicholai of Alaska or...), they never actually prosecute that case in the manner prescribed by the canons of the Church (or indeed the statutes of the OCA). Canonical due process protects not only the accused but the accusers by bringing the accusations out for actual scrutiny by all sides. By avoiding following canonical process, the bishops of the Synod are basically asking for the matter to be tried 'in the court of public opinion', with rumor and gossip flying and their own motives and claims just thrown into the mix.

Witega--I know that you are familiar with Canons of the Church. That said, wouldn't you agree that the OCA Statute has the force of canons for the OCA? If that is the case (and I believe it to be so), then the Holy Synod has the canonical power to ask for and to approve retirements. Would it have been better in the cases that you mention to have used the route of Spiritual Court, which involves more bishops that the OCA had (has?). The latter approach may have been more definitive; however, I submit that the approach that has been taken to date has also been canonical, albeit one that does not bring as much closure.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Basil 320 on July 17, 2012, 12:03:42 AM
Officially, it's probably unfortunate that the Holy Synod issued the statement today, but now that I've read it, thank God the Synod took the action they took.  It's a sad situation.  Their action seemed to be taken reluctantly and they do not seem to rejoice in it.  Wow was I wrong in doubting the Synod last week, although I thought the reasoning that was being discussed on these internet forums seemed highly unlikely.  The Synod did what it had to do, and I think still tried to maintain some decorum the best they could given the circumstances.

What do others think about this?  Given the "misfeasance, malfeasance, and nonfeasance" enabled for 19 years by the two primates who preceeded Metropolitan Jonah, as set forth in the SIC (Special Investigative Committee) Report ('08), the administrative problems associated with Metropolitan Jonah's primatial service, including his resignation, the manner in which it came about, and the reasons for it, I think the Synod should work toward reestablishing credibility among the priests, deacons, and laity, and take their time electing the new primate (although I think I've seen that the statute calls for an election within 90 days or so).  I imagine there would be a great deal of cynicism--lots of eye rolling ("Oh no, now what?), that would greet a new metropolitan.  Also, because of the distrust, the new metropolitan will have quite a task promoting new initiatives; a qualified hierarch's initial challenges could work against the possibility of the success of his long term primatial service.  Should the Synod secure the concurrence of the Metropolitan Council to delay the election for a year?  Of course, another approach would be, as a new parish priest may often act, for the new primate to preach the message of the Gospels, the salvic message of the church, and avoid any new administrative initiatives to restore credibility.  Your thoughts?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: kijabeboy03 on July 17, 2012, 12:28:54 AM
I don't think the Holy Synod's credibility is in question, unless you're such a blind devotee of our former metropolitan that you can't believe the facts put forward in the Holy Synod's statement. I honestly don't know who would want to be our metropolitan, but wouldn't it be better to get on with things than to make them even more drawn out and uncertain? (Which waiting a year certainly would do.)

Officially, it's probably unfortunate that the Holy Synod issued the statement today, but now that I've read it, thank God the Synod took the action they took.  It's a sad situation.  Their action seemed to be taken reluctantly and they do not seem to rejoice in it.  Wow was I wrong in doubting the Synod last week, although I thought the reasoning that was being discussed on these internet forums seemed highly unlikely.  The Synod did what it had to do, and I think still tried to maintain some decorum the best they could given the circumstances.

What do others think about this?  Given the "misfeasance, malfeasance, and nonfeasance" enabled for 19 years by the two primates who preceeded Metropolitan Jonah, as set forth in the SIC (Special Investigative Committee) Report ('08), the administrative problems associated with Metropolitan Jonah's primatial service, including his resignation, the manner in which it came about, and the reasons for it, I think the Synod should work toward reestablishing credibility among the priests, deacons, and laity, and take their time electing the new primate (although I think I've seen that the statute calls for an election within 90 days or so).  I imagine there would be a great deal of cynicism--lots of eye rolling ("Oh no, now what?), that would greet a new metropolitan.  Also, because of the distrust, the new metropolitan will have quite a task promoting new initiatives; a qualified hierarch's initial challenges could work against the possibility of the success of his long term primatial service.  Should the Synod secure the concurrence of the Metropolitan Council to delay the election for a year?  Of course, another approach would be, as a new parish priest may often act, for the new primate to preach the message of the Gospels, the salvic message of the church, and avoid any new administrative initiatives to restore credibility.  Your thoughts?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: trifecta on July 17, 2012, 12:54:54 AM
As an OCA member who occasionally followed the scandals, I am glad the Holy Synod put out this statement.  
I have met Metropolitan Jonah and have been supportive of him.   He is a man of not only wisdom, but an ability
to communicate the spiritual to those of us with a more secular mindset (not that that's a good thing).
I was thinking the Holy Synod were just some old fuddy-duddies who were resisting change.
(I know Orthodox don't think much of change).

But as a parishioner friend said to me, the actions of the Holy Synod have been unanimous.  Furthermore,
I read biographical excerpts on these people, and wow, many have lived difficult or at least thoughtful lives.
Could *all* of them been wrong?

There is no excuse for covering up a crime.  I believe that I had a run-in (nothing major, but nevertheless disturbing)
with the priest at the center of this scandal.  I reported the incident to my priest, because I felt it was my duty as a member
of the OCA.   I did not want to see the church's reputation tarnished by this priest and maybe more importantly, members
being harmed by his actions.

The apparent fact that the Metropolitan tried to sweep this under the rug and, worse yet, pawn him off on another
jurisdiction is to say the least disturbing.  If true, this is reason enough to request the Metropolitan's resignation.
Thus the Synod's letter.    I'm glad to hear their side of the story and feel bad for doubting them.

 
(This post is a reaction; upon hearing other evidence I reserve the right to change my mind.)
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: witega on July 17, 2012, 01:16:14 AM
You would have to read the entire letter to understand the particulars of the Holy Synod's case against +Jonah.

Point of order: It's not really a 'case against +Jonah' because the Holy Synod has (once again) decided to forgo canonical procedures and actually hold a spiritual court. At some point, the question the Holy Synod really should address is why, if they have actual an actual case against Metropolitan Jonah (or Metropolitan Herman, or Metropolitan Theodosius, or Bishop Nicholai of Alaska or...), they never actually prosecute that case in the manner prescribed by the canons of the Church (or indeed the statutes of the OCA). Canonical due process protects not only the accused but the accusers by bringing the accusations out for actual scrutiny by all sides. By avoiding following canonical process, the bishops of the Synod are basically asking for the matter to be tried 'in the court of public opinion', with rumor and gossip flying and their own motives and claims just thrown into the mix.

Witega--I know that you are familiar with Canons of the Church. That said, wouldn't you agree that the OCA Statute has the force of canons for the OCA? If that is the case (and I believe it to be so), then the Holy Synod has the canonical power to ask for and to approve retirements. Would it have been better in the cases that you mention to have used the route of Spiritual Court, which involves more bishops that the OCA had (has?). The latter approach may have been more definitive; however, I submit that the approach that has been taken to date has also been canonical, albeit one that does not bring as much closure.

This whole thing is clearly very spiritually unhealthy for me, so I'll answer this post and the pray that God gives me strength to stay as far away from it as possible going forward.

I do not claim intimate familiarity with the Statute of the OCA, but I think it's a given that the statute ('canons') of any local church should conform to the Ecumenical Canons--particularly on the matter of how to deal with clerical discipline. And if the OCA does not have the capability of assembling a proper canonical court (borrowing bishops from sister Churches if necessary) that is the strongest argument I have ever heard that the OCA's autocephaly should be rescinded until such time as the Church in America is capable of actually following the canons.

As for Bishop Mathias' communication, I am on record earlier in this thread that the bishops do not answer to us and do not 'owe' us an explanation, but I think this communication proves my point. If these accusations were going to be made public at all, then they should have been done so in some venue (preferably a spiritual court) where the accused actually had an opportunity to tell his side of the story. Making them public (and with confirmable details redacted) only after Metropolitan Jonah can no longer freely respond (now that he's resigned, he is completely dependent on the good will of the Synod for another assignment, retirement pension, or even simply canonical release so that he can go and serve elsewhere) smells like the behavior of those who know their actions won't actually stand up to questioning. It doesn't make me a supporter of Metropolitan Jonah, about whom I've been ambivalent for a while--but it certainly erodes any trust I had left in the Synod.

Luckily, neither the Church nor my own faith is dependent on my trusting them. But with that, I'll bow out.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 17, 2012, 01:26:04 AM
Wow. Basically the Synod opened fire in the Metropolitan's reputation.

I dont think they should have released this.

PP

I'm going to assume the 'rationale' behind the destruction of the Metropolitan's reputation is that they are doing it for the good of the Church and that  the end justifies the means.   It's the concept of 'economia' going haywire.   Well I have news for anyone who thinks this way, the Church is the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit doesn't work through sin...so no matter how one looks at it, to slander and calumniate another person is  a sin. >:(

The Church is not the Holy Spirit.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 17, 2012, 01:26:04 AM
My bishop, +Matthias, has today published a very lengthy new explanation about the reasons why the Holy Synod requested that +Jonah resign, and providing much more detail about the reasons behind the Holy Synod's action.  

A snippet:

"Our request for Metropolitan Jonah’s resignation, or that he take a leave of absence for treatment, came at the end of a rather long list of questionable, unilateral decisions and actions, demonstrating the inability of the Metropolitan to always be truthful and accountable to his peers.  The Metropolitan’s freely-chosen resignation has been characterized by him and others as the result of politics and internal discord among the members of the Holy Synod.  Quite to the contrary, the other members of the Holy Synod stand firmly together in our unanimous astonishment at the Metropolitan’s actions.  We cannot stress enough that while the most recent events are likely the most dangerous for the Church, these represent only the latest in a long series of poor choices that have caused harm to our Church.  We understand and agree that an ability to work or not work well with others, or a challenged administrative skill set, or Metropolitan Jonah’s refusal to comply with the recommendations of the treatment facility, while not the reasons for his requested resignation, were fundamentally related to the consequences of his actions."

http://domoca.org/news_120716_1.html

What did they want him "treated' for?

As far as I know, the precise things they wanted treatment for have not been publicly disclosed, though there are plenty of rumors (some of which are probably true, with people in the know telling other people and so on).  I'm not really sure it's a good idea to discuss the issue publicly since - to my knowledge - neither the Synod nor Metropolitan Jonah have ever officially revealed what sort of treatment was supposed to happen.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 17, 2012, 01:26:04 AM
My bishop, +Matthias, has today published a very lengthy new explanation about the reasons why the Holy Synod requested that +Jonah resign, and providing much more detail about the reasons behind the Holy Synod's action.  

A snippet:

"Our request for Metropolitan Jonah’s resignation, or that he take a leave of absence for treatment, came at the end of a rather long list of questionable, unilateral decisions and actions, demonstrating the inability of the Metropolitan to always be truthful and accountable to his peers.  The Metropolitan’s freely-chosen resignation has been characterized by him and others as the result of politics and internal discord among the members of the Holy Synod.  Quite to the contrary, the other members of the Holy Synod stand firmly together in our unanimous astonishment at the Metropolitan’s actions.  We cannot stress enough that while the most recent events are likely the most dangerous for the Church, these represent only the latest in a long series of poor choices that have caused harm to our Church.  We understand and agree that an ability to work or not work well with others, or a challenged administrative skill set, or Metropolitan Jonah’s refusal to comply with the recommendations of the treatment facility, while not the reasons for his requested resignation, were fundamentally related to the consequences of his actions."

http://domoca.org/news_120716_1.html

The same letter was also published at OCA.ORG coming this time in the name of the Holy Synod. The reason given for the publication of this letter was stated in the opening paragraph:

"We, the Holy Synod of Bishops of the Orthodox Church in America, have hesitated to release further details surrounding the resignation of Metropolitan Jonah as Primate of our Church, this in a desire to preserve his dignity and to prevent further harm to an innocent party. We did this knowing there would be appeals for additional information regarding our decision. We also harbored some hope that Metropolitan Jonah would show a willingness to accept responsibility for his actions and failures to act. However, things said and written by Metropolitan Jonah since his resignation have demonstrated that he is not accepting that responsibility." (my emphasis)

http://oca.org/PDF/NEWS/2012/2012-0716-holy-synod-statement.pdf (http://oca.org/PDF/NEWS/2012/2012-0716-holy-synod-statement.pdf)

Where, exactly, did His Beatitude write anything since he resigned?

I cannot find anything that he has said publicly. However, plenty of his supporters have said plenty in public, including many hiding behind fake Internet names, citing information that could have come only from +Jonah.

Would you please provide us with links to where His Eminence's supporters have posted public comments about his resignation?

This is a link to the Monomakhos website, select any of the first six or seven posts, and you'll find those public comments about his resignation: http://www.monomakhos.com/category/a-michalopulos-blog/
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 17, 2012, 01:26:04 AM
Officially, it's probably unfortunate that the Holy Synod issued the statement today, but now that I've read it, thank God the Synod took the action they took.  It's a sad situation.  Their action seemed to be taken reluctantly and they do not seem to rejoice in it.  Wow was I wrong in doubting the Synod last week, although I thought the reasoning that was being discussed on these internet forums seemed highly unlikely.  The Synod did what it had to do, and I think still tried to maintain some decorum the best they could given the circumstances.

What do others think about this?  Given the "misfeasance, malfeasance, and nonfeasance" enabled for 19 years by the two primates who preceeded Metropolitan Jonah, as set forth in the SIC (Special Investigative Committee) Report ('08), the administrative problems associated with Metropolitan Jonah's primatial service, including his resignation, the manner in which it came about, and the reasons for it, I think the Synod should work toward reestablishing credibility among the priests, deacons, and laity, and take their time electing the new primate (although I think I've seen that the statute calls for an election within 90 days or so).  I imagine there would be a great deal of cynicism--lots of eye rolling ("Oh no, now what?), that would greet a new metropolitan.  Also, because of the distrust, the new metropolitan will have quite a task promoting new initiatives; a qualified hierarch's initial challenges could work against the possibility of the success of his long term primatial service.  Should the Synod secure the concurrence of the Metropolitan Council to delay the election for a year?  Of course, another approach would be, as a new parish priest may often act, for the new primate to preach the message of the Gospels, the salvic message of the church, and avoid any new administrative initiatives to restore credibility.  Your thoughts?

I think what really needs to happen, if the people (including the priests and deacons) are to have faith in their leaders, a Metropolitan who is completely unimpeachable, and who's character and talents and personality are well known, must be elected.  As I understand it, Fr. Hopko was pushing for Met. Hilarion to be elected back in '08.  Perhaps such a thing wouldn't be a terrible idea.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Hermogenes on July 17, 2012, 04:58:20 AM
Did he not mismanage money enough for them?

PP

Is this kind of comment really necessary?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: Hermogenes on July 17, 2012, 05:51:09 AM
Dear Augustin,

If you carefully comb through the controversies surrounding Met. Jonah, you will see the 'culture war' was by far a small bump in His Beatitude's road as First Hierarch.

The main problems he encountered came from speeches in which he offended the Church of Constantinople in an unpolitical way, then later called the Tomos of Autocephaly of the OCA into question by essentially implying it could be given up in favor of an arrangement with the Episcopal Assembly.  In both cases, the Holy Synod was caught off-guard, since these were major issues (inter-Orthodox relations and autocephaly itself) that the HS has a role in.

His Beatitude had a habit of musing in public, which is never something that someone of such consequence should do.  After all, when he speaks, he speaks not for himself but the entire OCA.  It appears that he never entirely grasped the idea that the OCA is a large ship and that you can't jerk the wheel this way or that before you end up breaking the rudder.

This was all the more magnified when he agreed to take a leave of absence, then 'un-agreed' after the meeting with his bishops.  His pattern of quick decisions that led him to even quicker changes of mind really made working with him difficult.  But, it was his ignoring of the other bishops that ultimately did him in.  They tried to explain to him why he could not simply move the whole operation of the OCA to Washington, DC, during a true financial crisis, and he never seemed to accept the advice.  He tried to jerk the wheel, and ended up in conflict with his own administration.

Then, there was his unfortunate involvement with Fr. Joseph Fester that was uncovered by the leaked emails posted on OCANews.  I'm sure you don't want to wade into that controversy here.

In the end, Met. Jonah is a good man, but very clearly not cut out for the job.  This is not an insult, not every monk is material for such an office.  It just did not work out.  The difficulty of the OCA is that it has had a string of bad choices, which is really painful when you are a young church.  Let's hope the next metropolitan is a better fit.



For those here who are members of OCA parishes: What do the faithful in your parish think about this issue? Is this all just something going on in the Synod, or were the laypeople and parish clergy also discontent with Met. Jonah's leadership? Would they prefer to keep him?
From my limited experience: there are those thatmourn him as if it's a presage of the world's ending, and there are those that are glad; he was really naive though thinking that he can just dive head in into the whole "culture-war" the way he did, when his church wasn't on the same page as him by and large. But with friends like Dreher, a metropolitan hardly needs enemies.

Take a look at the letter sent to the faithful of the Diocese of NY/NJ by HG Bishop Michael. I don't believe culture wars enter into the picture. First off, HB is a long way from being anyone's idea of progressive. I've never heard anything official from him that fails to conform to our Orthodox tradition. Many of his views had already been exposed to publics scrutiny prior to his election, since as Igumen Jonah he was fairly well known in the church.

I can only wonder at what sort of leader he might have been if he'd had more than 11 days to learn how to be a hierarch. Remember, at the time of his election only a few bishops were free of any role in the then ongoing scandals. For most, it was simply a matter of collaboration, of not asking uncomfortable questions for fear of getting uncomfortable answers. Going in to the 2008 church convention no one knew what to do. The only clear "hero" of that time was HE Archbishop Job, and he was adamant about not wanting the job. The locum tenens, HE Archbishop Dimitri, was increasing frail, not to mention his advanced age. (Both hierarchs have subsequently fallen asleep. Memory eternal!) And then here comes this sparkling new bishop out to talk with the faithful, and the "musing out loud" totally charmed his hearers. Here was a man whose yea was yea, and whose nay was nay. Next thing you know, he's standing front and being acclaimed primate. And he seemed to start off pretty well. But there have been rumblings for several years. I don't know anyone who's surprised.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: kijabeboy03 on July 17, 2012, 06:12:28 AM
I don't think the Russians were (or are) going to let go of their next patriarch :-).

Officially, it's probably unfortunate that the Holy Synod issued the statement today, but now that I've read it, thank God the Synod took the action they took.  It's a sad situation.  Their action seemed to be taken reluctantly and they do not seem to rejoice in it.  Wow was I wrong in doubting the Synod last week, although I thought the reasoning that was being discussed on these internet forums seemed highly unlikely.  The Synod did what it had to do, and I think still tried to maintain some decorum the best they could given the circumstances.

What do others think about this?  Given the "misfeasance, malfeasance, and nonfeasance" enabled for 19 years by the two primates who preceeded Metropolitan Jonah, as set forth in the SIC (Special Investigative Committee) Report ('08), the administrative problems associated with Metropolitan Jonah's primatial service, including his resignation, the manner in which it came about, and the reasons for it, I think the Synod should work toward reestablishing credibility among the priests, deacons, and laity, and take their time electing the new primate (although I think I've seen that the statute calls for an election within 90 days or so).  I imagine there would be a great deal of cynicism--lots of eye rolling ("Oh no, now what?), that would greet a new metropolitan.  Also, because of the distrust, the new metropolitan will have quite a task promoting new initiatives; a qualified hierarch's initial challenges could work against the possibility of the success of his long term primatial service.  Should the Synod secure the concurrence of the Metropolitan Council to delay the election for a year?  Of course, another approach would be, as a new parish priest may often act, for the new primate to preach the message of the Gospels, the salvic message of the church, and avoid any new administrative initiatives to restore credibility.  Your thoughts?

I think what really needs to happen, if the people (including the priests and deacons) are to have faith in their leaders, a Metropolitan who is completely unimpeachable, and who's character and talents and personality are well known, must be elected.  As I understand it, Fr. Hopko was pushing for Met. Hilarion to be elected back in '08.  Perhaps such a thing wouldn't be a terrible idea.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: primuspilus on July 17, 2012, 06:56:15 AM
Did he not mismanage money enough for them?

PP

Is this kind of comment really necessary?
I already recanted and apologized for the statement. If you read 3 or 4 posts further, you would have seen that. Peter took me to the proverbial woodshed (as he should have).

After thinking it over, I think that maybe it was the right thing to do. Granted, the previous metropolitans had serious issues, I think that the OCA needed someone to "lead from the front". It wasnt that +Jonah is a bad man, just maybe not the right guy for what the OCA needed at the present time, coming out of scandal.

PP

PP
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: mike on July 17, 2012, 07:19:37 AM
While I'm sure we were part of the problem, I think monomakhos was a huge part of the vitriolic rumor mill.

We did, too.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PrincessMommy on July 17, 2012, 07:38:48 AM
Officially, it's probably unfortunate that the Holy Synod issued the statement today, but now that I've read it, thank God the Synod took the action they took.  It's a sad situation.  Their action seemed to be taken reluctantly and they do not seem to rejoice in it.  Wow was I wrong in doubting the Synod last week, although I thought the reasoning that was being discussed on these internet forums seemed highly unlikely.  The Synod did what it had to do, and I think still tried to maintain some decorum the best they could given the circumstances.

What do others think about this?  Given the "misfeasance, malfeasance, and nonfeasance" enabled for 19 years by the two primates who preceeded Metropolitan Jonah, as set forth in the SIC (Special Investigative Committee) Report ('08), the administrative problems associated with Metropolitan Jonah's primatial service, including his resignation, the manner in which it came about, and the reasons for it, I think the Synod should work toward reestablishing credibility among the priests, deacons, and laity, and take their time electing the new primate (although I think I've seen that the statute calls for an election within 90 days or so).  I imagine there would be a great deal of cynicism--lots of eye rolling ("Oh no, now what?), that would greet a new metropolitan.  Also, because of the distrust, the new metropolitan will have quite a task promoting new initiatives; a qualified hierarch's initial challenges could work against the possibility of the success of his long term primatial service.  Should the Synod secure the concurrence of the Metropolitan Council to delay the election for a year?  Of course, another approach would be, as a new parish priest may often act, for the new primate to preach the message of the Gospels, the salvic message of the church, and avoid any new administrative initiatives to restore credibility.  Your thoughts?

I agree.  The knee-jerk reaction of many people (myself included) was to mis-trust the Synod and they're going to need to work on that.  Perhaps its an impossible task in this day of cynicism and automatic distrust toward leaders here in America.  I wish they had told us the reasoning when the resignation was made public.  It just made things worse.  The only thing that is puzzling to me is why they wanted Met. JONAH to take a "leave of absence for treatment".  That just seems so odd wording if the reason he has stepped down was for administrative issues related to non-disclosure.  Shouldn't he have gone to "training".   That makes me think there is more to the story but I'm less inclined to dis-trust and assume the worst of the Synod now.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 17, 2012, 09:19:19 AM
Did he not mismanage money enough for them?

PP

Is this kind of comment really necessary?
Already addressed and forgiven. There's no need to bring this up again. :)
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: FormerReformer on July 17, 2012, 10:03:21 AM
What I would find amusing if the situation weren't so sad is that the most stringent of the Metropolitan's supporters (on other sites, you know which blogs I refer) have spent the past week demanding the Holy Synod explain the reason for requesting the Metropolitan's resignation, and now that the Synod has done so it is being accused of engaging in a smear campaign with cries of "he resigned already, haven't they done enough?" The Synod is truly in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" Catch-22.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: gzt on July 17, 2012, 10:06:34 AM
What I would find amusing if the situation weren't so sad is that the most stringent of the Metropolitan's supporters (on other sites, you know which blogs I refer) have spent the past week demanding the Holy Synod explain the reason for requesting the Metropolitan's resignation, and now that the Synod has done so it is being accused of engaging in a smear campaign with cries of "he resigned already, haven't they done enough?" The Synod is truly in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" Catch-22.
Some of them are saying, "This isn't enough information, it doesn't prove anything, substantiate all of the allegations fully. Give more examples!"
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: rakovsky on July 17, 2012, 10:26:38 AM
Peter took me to the proverbial woodshed (as he should have).
So that no one in the house could hear your cries?
If it is so good a thing to do, why is it done hidden in darkness?
Could this be a metaphor for the way some things are done in the leadership of organizations- they are done hidden and people don't know about it, and people think everything is OK, but it really isn't. They just trust the leadership while the leadership makes its own justification about the things. "They just wouldn't understand", "It's for the good of the order", etc. Meanwhile people think it's better if they don't know.

Perhaps I am part of this. I heard that there was a problem with the leadership, and avoided trying to find out about it myself. But if something bad is going on in the woodshed, could it be better to open the doors and expose it so people can stop it?

Admittedly, it seems there can be the opposite problem- when people are brought out to be mistreated and ridiculed by an uncaring populace. What if, say, the problem was that the Metropolitan had a mild (nonsexual) condition of some kind. Then there could be a problem if it was exposed needlessly.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: FatherGiryus on July 17, 2012, 10:49:39 AM
This is not merely, in my opinion, limited to OCA internet denizens.

I recently had a parishioner leave our parish because I would not describe exactly what was going on in a pastoral situation with another parishioner.  Of course, the other parishioner was fabricating big time, knowing that I would not break confidentiality.  When I tried to explain that I could not defend my decisions or answer the accusations, he said, "Yes, but I still need to know."

So, he walked, and God has since sent others to take his place.  Too bad for him.

What was interesting was that he had said, quite plainly, that he has done this before in other churches.  Most of the folks who are grousing right now are people who've had issues like this with other jurisdictions and even other churches altogether.  They are perennially discontent, and nothing will make them happy.

When Mark Stokoe ran OCANews, he actually was well-connected and got lots of insider information.  Since he was closed down, his 'replacements' on the internet indignation scene have no real connections and thus little to offer but rage.  Stokoe had rage, but at least it was informative rage.  Now we get just rage.


What I would find amusing if the situation weren't so sad is that the most stringent of the Metropolitan's supporters (on other sites, you know which blogs I refer) have spent the past week demanding the Holy Synod explain the reason for requesting the Metropolitan's resignation, and now that the Synod has done so it is being accused of engaging in a smear campaign with cries of "he resigned already, haven't they done enough?" The Synod is truly in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" Catch-22.
Some of them are saying, "This isn't enough information, it doesn't prove anything, substantiate all of the allegations fully. Give more examples!"
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Hermogenes on July 17, 2012, 11:00:22 AM
Here is the link to the Diocese of NY/NJ Web site and Bishop Michael's letter. It seems quite forthright to me, given the limits imposed by legal considerations.


http://nynjoca.org/files/2012/2012%20Releases/Bishop_LTR_16_JULY_2012.pdf
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: katherineofdixie on July 17, 2012, 11:03:46 AM
This is not merely, in my opinion, limited to OCA internet denizens.

I recently had a parishioner leave our parish because I would not describe exactly what was going on in a pastoral situation with another parishioner.  Of course, the other parishioner was fabricating big time, knowing that I would not break confidentiality.  When I tried to explain that I could not defend my decisions or answer the accusations, he said, "Yes, but I still need to know."

So, he walked, and God has since sent others to take his place.  Too bad for him.

What was interesting was that he had said, quite plainly, that he has done this before in other churches.  Most of the folks who are grousing right now are people who've had issues like this with other jurisdictions and even other churches altogether.  They are perennially discontent, and nothing will make them happy.


Exactly, Father. What people don't seem to understand is that it is not always fair, appropriate, helpful or even (in some cases) legal, for them to know all the gory details. I learned this as an HR manager, and I have seen it play out in interactions between Bishops and parishes. A Bishop or Priest literally cannot divulge details of interactions with Priests or parishioners. Nor is it necessary or helpful to anyone not directly involved.

Why do I need to know what conditions Metropolitan Jonah needed treatment for?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on July 17, 2012, 11:17:23 AM
I think that Monomakhos has four kinds  of bloggers:

1. Those who are inordinately afraid that the Orthodox Church will become like the Episcopal Church and condone abortion, gay marriage, women clergy, etc...They are willing to schism.

2. Those who use the culture wars issues I listed above as a smokescreen to cover up Metropolitan Jonah's mistakes. These folks are also willing to schism.

3. Those who have joined with the first two groups to push yet another agenda; the rehabilitation of retired Bishop Nikolai and former Chancellor Bob Kondratick. These folks cannot schism and achieve their goal.

4. Finally, there are folks who jump in trying to counter the arguments of the first three groups. I was part of this group. I have quit trying to reason with schismatics.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: gzt on July 17, 2012, 11:31:09 AM
What about those caught up in the cult of personality of Metropolitan Jonah? They may have aspects of 1 and 2.

But, yes, I've worked in HR, too, and know that it is not in my interests to know all the dirt and that it is not in anybody's interests to know all the dirt. If you want to know the dirt, it is most likely a prurient interest rather than a righteous one. If you want to know something, you need to have a reasonable need for that information and you will be given the minimum necessary to meet that reasonable need. Beyond that, "What is it to you?" as Jesus once said.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 17, 2012, 11:58:33 AM
Peter took me to the proverbial woodshed (as he should have).
So that no one in the house could hear your cries?
If it is so good a thing to do, why is it done hidden in darkness?
Could this be a metaphor for the way some things are done in the leadership of organizations- they are done hidden and people don't know about it, and people think everything is OK, but it really isn't. They just trust the leadership while the leadership makes its own justification about the things. "They just wouldn't understand", "It's for the good of the order", etc. Meanwhile people think it's better if they don't know.

Perhaps I am part of this. I heard that there was a problem with the leadership, and avoided trying to find out about it myself. But if something bad is going on in the woodshed, could it be better to open the doors and expose it so people can stop it?

Admittedly, it seems there can be the opposite problem- when people are brought out to be mistreated and ridiculed by an uncaring populace. What if, say, the problem was that the Metropolitan had a mild (nonsexual) condition of some kind. Then there could be a problem if it was exposed needlessly.
What are you talking about, Rakovsky? ??? You're taking a metaphor primuspilus used in reference to a very public interaction I had with him on this thread and turning that metaphor into something totally different.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: FatherGiryus on July 17, 2012, 12:06:12 PM
Let's be fair: the higher you move up in terms of responsibility, the less expectation one should have of privacy.

For example, if you cheat on your wife as a layman, it can be handled in complete confidentiality.  How about a priest?  No, some of it is going to be public because he's going to be deposed.

If there are criminal matters, there is also less of an expectation of privacy.  However, this situation was not criminal.

In this case, there was a violation of the canons regarding the reception and release of clergy.  Yet, the Church has flexibility in how to deal with these kinds of violations, and retirement is appropriate.

The second was a rather significant violation of the trust OCA members have that the hierarchs will act on behalf of the entire community.  His Beatitude violated that trust by refusing to abide by the OCA's misconduct policy which was in place before his elevation and which he never made any official effort to remove.  Given that the OCA is involved in a lawsuit, and the Metropolitan's action may very well have been revealed through later legal proceedings, I think that this revelation would have been made at some point and so there was no expectation of privacy beyond what the Holy Synod had already offered him.

Let's remember something as well: for those diehard supporters of His Beatitude's 'culture warrior' role, what is more important in modern American religious discourse than sexual misconduct?  This very issue has shattered the confidence of countless Roman Catholics and even Evangelicals (yes, they've had their share: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_evangelist_scandals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_evangelist_scandals)).  Metropolitan Jonah had a significant problem in a monastery he received... and he did nothing but cover up the problem.

While His Beatitude's personality issues that appeared to be behind many of these decisions could have been kept confidential, what could not, in the end, were his primatial decisions.  In the end, the Holy Synod could neither force him to make these decisions, nor could they help him once he made them.

It is apparent that the Holy Synod wanted to keep all of this as quiet as they could, but it was the dire calls of His Beatitude's supporters that forced the hands of the Holy Synod to release the information and air the 'dirty laundry.'  Even now, one site is crying for documentation.  I am beginning to wonder if this site is not directly involved in some kind of plot to undermine Met. Jonah while pretending to support him.

His Beatitude probably could have been given the Diocese of the South had he resigned a few years earlier before these decisions became entrenched, but now this will never happened because his violation of the canons are such that he is truly disqualified from further service in the episcopate.  


This is not merely, in my opinion, limited to OCA internet denizens.

I recently had a parishioner leave our parish because I would not describe exactly what was going on in a pastoral situation with another parishioner.  Of course, the other parishioner was fabricating big time, knowing that I would not break confidentiality.  When I tried to explain that I could not defend my decisions or answer the accusations, he said, "Yes, but I still need to know."

So, he walked, and God has since sent others to take his place.  Too bad for him.

What was interesting was that he had said, quite plainly, that he has done this before in other churches.  Most of the folks who are grousing right now are people who've had issues like this with other jurisdictions and even other churches altogether.  They are perennially discontent, and nothing will make them happy.


Exactly, Father. What people don't seem to understand is that it is not always fair, appropriate, helpful or even (in some cases) legal, for them to know all the gory details. I learned this as an HR manager, and I have seen it play out in interactions between Bishops and parishes. A Bishop or Priest literally cannot divulge details of interactions with Priests or parishioners. Nor is it necessary or helpful to anyone not directly involved.

Why do I need to know what conditions Metropolitan Jonah needed treatment for?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Nigula Qian Zishi on July 17, 2012, 02:49:23 PM
According to that blog, the accusations of the synod were incorrect. Read and decide for yourselves:

http://www.monomakhos.com/first-rule-of-holes-when-youre-in-one-stop-digging/ (http://www.monomakhos.com/first-rule-of-holes-when-youre-in-one-stop-digging/)
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 17, 2012, 03:02:34 PM
According to that blog, the accusations of the synod were incorrect. Read and decide for yourselves:

http://www.monomakhos.com/first-rule-of-holes-when-youre-in-one-stop-digging/ (http://www.monomakhos.com/first-rule-of-holes-when-youre-in-one-stop-digging/)
Please do remind me never to go back to that rag of a blog called monomakhos again. ::)
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PrincessMommy on July 17, 2012, 03:29:45 PM
According to that blog, the accusations of the synod were incorrect. Read and decide for yourselves:

http://www.monomakhos.com/first-rule-of-holes-when-youre-in-one-stop-digging/ (http://www.monomakhos.com/first-rule-of-holes-when-youre-in-one-stop-digging/)

I saw that.  He's lost every shred of credibility with that post.  Sad, really sad.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: FatherGiryus on July 17, 2012, 03:49:34 PM
The problem with the Monomakhos post is that it assumes the ENTIRE Holy Synod is lying, in which case one would wonder why George is not attending a parish of Antiochian, Serbian, Romanian Patriarchal or some other jurisdiction.  All hope would be lost at that stage.  Met. Jonah could not be 'restored' to a jurisdiction without bishops, which is the natural conclusion of such an act of depravity as he accuses.

Furthermore, most of this information is outside the OCA, so it would make no sense to make claims about the transfer of the priest in question since ROCOR is in possession of the original letter of transfer.  If the Holy Synod was lying, ROCOR could easily post the original letter and utterly humiliate the entire OCA while exonerating an innocent man.

In some ways, the Holy Synod has been far more loving to Metropolitan Jonah than George has.  They have been trying to get him help and end his self-destructive behavior, which George, Fr. Joseph Fester, Rod Dreher, Jesse Cone, and many of the other 'supporters' were busy trying to get His Beatitude to double-down.  They created a conspiracy narrative to drive a wedge between the bishops and the metropolitan.

There are many people who love Metropolitan Jonah and wanted him to succeed.  I don't think any of them wanted to see him violate OCA policies and Church canons the way he did.  They did not support him to do those things, but rather be an inspirational leader.  Sadly, his actions were not in keeping with his sermons, and this disconnect is disappointing to everyone.


According to that blog, the accusations of the synod were incorrect. Read and decide for yourselves:

http://www.monomakhos.com/first-rule-of-holes-when-youre-in-one-stop-digging/ (http://www.monomakhos.com/first-rule-of-holes-when-youre-in-one-stop-digging/)

I saw that.  He's lost every shred of credibility with that post.  Sad, really sad.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Hermogenes on July 17, 2012, 04:06:58 PM
Officially, it's probably unfortunate that the Holy Synod issued the statement today, but now that I've read it, thank God the Synod took the action they took.  It's a sad situation.  Their action seemed to be taken reluctantly and they do not seem to rejoice in it.  Wow was I wrong in doubting the Synod last week, although I thought the reasoning that was being discussed on these internet forums seemed highly unlikely.  The Synod did what it had to do, and I think still tried to maintain some decorum the best they could given the circumstances.

What do others think about this?  Given the "misfeasance, malfeasance, and nonfeasance" enabled for 19 years by the two primates who preceeded Metropolitan Jonah, as set forth in the SIC (Special Investigative Committee) Report ('08), the administrative problems associated with Metropolitan Jonah's primatial service, including his resignation, the manner in which it came about, and the reasons for it, I think the Synod should work toward reestablishing credibility among the priests, deacons, and laity, and take their time electing the new primate (although I think I've seen that the statute calls for an election within 90 days or so).  I imagine there would be a great deal of cynicism--lots of eye rolling ("Oh no, now what?), that would greet a new metropolitan.  Also, because of the distrust, the new metropolitan will have quite a task promoting new initiatives; a qualified hierarch's initial challenges could work against the possibility of the success of his long term primatial service.  Should the Synod secure the concurrence of the Metropolitan Council to delay the election for a year?  Of course, another approach would be, as a new parish priest may often act, for the new primate to preach the message of the Gospels, the salvic message of the church, and avoid any new administrative initiatives to restore credibility.  Your thoughts?

I think what really needs to happen, if the people (including the priests and deacons) are to have faith in their leaders, a Metropolitan who is completely unimpeachable, and who's character and talents and personality are well known, must be elected.  As I understand it, Fr. Hopko was pushing for Met. Hilarion to be elected back in '08.  Perhaps such a thing wouldn't be a terrible idea.

I can see His Emminence is known to you only by name. He would truly bring disaster upon our church. Yes, he is brilliant, devout, and talented. But his very Russian style of leadership would never work here.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Benjamin the Red on July 17, 2012, 04:19:36 PM
Officially, it's probably unfortunate that the Holy Synod issued the statement today, but now that I've read it, thank God the Synod took the action they took.  It's a sad situation.  Their action seemed to be taken reluctantly and they do not seem to rejoice in it.  Wow was I wrong in doubting the Synod last week, although I thought the reasoning that was being discussed on these internet forums seemed highly unlikely.  The Synod did what it had to do, and I think still tried to maintain some decorum the best they could given the circumstances.

What do others think about this?  Given the "misfeasance, malfeasance, and nonfeasance" enabled for 19 years by the two primates who preceeded Metropolitan Jonah, as set forth in the SIC (Special Investigative Committee) Report ('08), the administrative problems associated with Metropolitan Jonah's primatial service, including his resignation, the manner in which it came about, and the reasons for it, I think the Synod should work toward reestablishing credibility among the priests, deacons, and laity, and take their time electing the new primate (although I think I've seen that the statute calls for an election within 90 days or so).  I imagine there would be a great deal of cynicism--lots of eye rolling ("Oh no, now what?), that would greet a new metropolitan.  Also, because of the distrust, the new metropolitan will have quite a task promoting new initiatives; a qualified hierarch's initial challenges could work against the possibility of the success of his long term primatial service.  Should the Synod secure the concurrence of the Metropolitan Council to delay the election for a year?  Of course, another approach would be, as a new parish priest may often act, for the new primate to preach the message of the Gospels, the salvic message of the church, and avoid any new administrative initiatives to restore credibility.  Your thoughts?

I think what really needs to happen, if the people (including the priests and deacons) are to have faith in their leaders, a Metropolitan who is completely unimpeachable, and who's character and talents and personality are well known, must be elected.  As I understand it, Fr. Hopko was pushing for Met. Hilarion to be elected back in '08.  Perhaps such a thing wouldn't be a terrible idea.

I can see His Emminence is known to you only by name. He would truly bring disaster upon our church. Yes, he is brilliant, devout, and talented. But his very Russian style of leadership would never work here.

You're probably right. The question is, whose problem is that? I'm not so sure anymore...
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Marc1152 on July 17, 2012, 04:24:36 PM
Officially, it's probably unfortunate that the Holy Synod issued the statement today, but now that I've read it, thank God the Synod took the action they took.  It's a sad situation.  Their action seemed to be taken reluctantly and they do not seem to rejoice in it.  Wow was I wrong in doubting the Synod last week, although I thought the reasoning that was being discussed on these internet forums seemed highly unlikely.  The Synod did what it had to do, and I think still tried to maintain some decorum the best they could given the circumstances.

What do others think about this?  Given the "misfeasance, malfeasance, and nonfeasance" enabled for 19 years by the two primates who preceeded Metropolitan Jonah, as set forth in the SIC (Special Investigative Committee) Report ('08), the administrative problems associated with Metropolitan Jonah's primatial service, including his resignation, the manner in which it came about, and the reasons for it, I think the Synod should work toward reestablishing credibility among the priests, deacons, and laity, and take their time electing the new primate (although I think I've seen that the statute calls for an election within 90 days or so).  I imagine there would be a great deal of cynicism--lots of eye rolling ("Oh no, now what?), that would greet a new metropolitan.  Also, because of the distrust, the new metropolitan will have quite a task promoting new initiatives; a qualified hierarch's initial challenges could work against the possibility of the success of his long term primatial service.  Should the Synod secure the concurrence of the Metropolitan Council to delay the election for a year?  Of course, another approach would be, as a new parish priest may often act, for the new primate to preach the message of the Gospels, the salvic message of the church, and avoid any new administrative initiatives to restore credibility.  Your thoughts?

I think what really needs to happen, if the people (including the priests and deacons) are to have faith in their leaders, a Metropolitan who is completely unimpeachable, and who's character and talents and personality are well known, must be elected.  As I understand it, Fr. Hopko was pushing for Met. Hilarion to be elected back in '08.  Perhaps such a thing wouldn't be a terrible idea.

I can see His Emminence is known to you only by name. He would truly bring disaster upon our church. Yes, he is brilliant, devout, and talented. But his very Russian style of leadership would never work here.

Maybe just for a couple years to bring order.

I have spent time with Met. Hilarion. I cant attest to his leadership style, Russian or not, but he is very wise in his personal style.
Sounds like what the doctor has ordered to me.

My Priest was ordained by him at all levels. Just after he was made a Deacon, he was serving the Liturgy with  the Met. He recounts that he did not really know what he was doing and went out from the Altar with the sensor. He walked back and forth, back and forth in front of the Icon Screen until all eyebrows were up and there were a few giggles.

He got back to the Altar when Met Hilarion looked at him and said............. "Perfect"    
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Cognomen on July 17, 2012, 04:30:11 PM
I don't claim to know the truth in this situation, but these blogists come off as revolting rumor mongers.

I'll be in line when bishops seem to stray from the faith (as we all should), but the derisive tone these folk (or maybe one fellow) take towards the bishops is disconcerting.  

I suppose the taking in of a bunch of disgruntled folk is coming back to roost. These type of reactions make me miss the 90% of my life when I had no affiliation with churches.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: primuspilus on July 17, 2012, 04:42:49 PM
I just read the latest monomakhos post and I must say, that although he brings up good counterpoints in light of not knowing EVERYTHING, the way in which it is presented is very, very disrespectful and should not be done.

PP
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: primuspilus on July 17, 2012, 05:15:58 PM
No edit.

I would like to say I have been following alot of blogs on this, from Episcopalians, to Baptists, Roman Catholics, and Anglicans.

They dont denounce the Holy Synod (well...except for one....no not mono...its an Anglican blog) but they say how much he'll be missed and how great a voice he was for American Orthodoxy. His Eminence is loved by alot of folks.

I hope he does get an episcopal assignment because he seemed to be a true asset to our faith.

I am surprised that Stokoe hasnt said too much (except for some Chicago Tribune piece or something)

PP
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Hermogenes on July 17, 2012, 05:29:02 PM
Quote

I can see His Emminence is known to you only by name. He would truly bring disaster upon our church. Yes, he is brilliant, devout, and talented. But his very Russian style of leadership would never work here.

Maybe just for a couple years to bring order.

I have spent time with Met. Hilarion. I cant attest to his leadership style, Russian or not, but he is very wise in his personal style.
Sounds like what the doctor has ordered to me.

My Priest was ordained by him at all levels. Just after he was made a Deacon, he was serving the Liturgy with  the Met. He recounts that he did not really know what he was doing and went out from the Altar with the sensor. He walked back and forth, back and forth in front of the Icon Screen until all eyebrows were up and there were a few giggles.

He got back to the Altar when Met Hilarion looked at him and said............. "Perfect"    
[/quote]

I didn't mean he was evil. He's extraordinarily kind and cultured. But for example, take a look at his comments a year or so ago to Der Spiegel (German news pub) about the breakdown in discussions between Orthodox and Lutherans. "Brisk" would be about the most generous spin I could put on it. Needlessly blunt and rude would be closer. And it's not a translation issue. The interview was in German, which I speak, being half Viennese. I believe we do not need a bishop given to harsh public comments that offend his audience. And even apart from this, I do not think he will leave Russia. He is being guided to a much different future.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PrincessMommy on July 17, 2012, 06:08:32 PM
Quote

I can see His Emminence is known to you only by name. He would truly bring disaster upon our church. Yes, he is brilliant, devout, and talented. But his very Russian style of leadership would never work here.

Maybe just for a couple years to bring order.

I have spent time with Met. Hilarion. I cant attest to his leadership style, Russian or not, but he is very wise in his personal style.
Sounds like what the doctor has ordered to me.

My Priest was ordained by him at all levels. Just after he was made a Deacon, he was serving the Liturgy with  the Met. He recounts that he did not really know what he was doing and went out from the Altar with the sensor. He walked back and forth, back and forth in front of the Icon Screen until all eyebrows were up and there were a few giggles.

He got back to the Altar when Met Hilarion looked at him and said............. "Perfect"    

Quote
I didn't mean he was evil. He's extraordinarily kind and cultured. But for example, take a look at his comments a year or so ago to Der Spiegel (German news pub) about the breakdown in discussions between Orthodox and Lutherans. "Brisk" would be about the most generous spin I could put on it. Needlessly blunt and rude would be closer. And it's not a translation issue. The interview was in German, which I speak, being half Viennese. I believe we do not need a bishop given to harsh public comments that offend his audience. And even apart from this, I do not think he will leave Russia. He is being guided to a much different future.

I think you two are talking about two different Hilarions:

Met. Hilarion of ROCOR and Met. Hilarion Alfeyev.  
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PrincessMommy on July 17, 2012, 06:11:18 PM
No edit.

I would like to say I have been following alot of blogs on this, from Episcopalians, to Baptists, Roman Catholics, and Anglicans.

They dont denounce the Holy Synod (well...except for one....no not mono...its an Anglican blog) but they say how much he'll be missed and how great a voice he was for American Orthodoxy. His Eminence is loved by alot of folks.

I hope he does get an episcopal assignment because he seemed to be a true asset to our faith.

I am surprised that Stokoe hasnt said too much (except for some Chicago Tribune piece or something)

PP

Good grief!  Baptists are talking about this?  I had no idea he was even their radar.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: kijabeboy03 on July 17, 2012, 06:54:26 PM
Assuming he had any to begin with...

According to that blog, the accusations of the synod were incorrect. Read and decide for yourselves:

http://www.monomakhos.com/first-rule-of-holes-when-youre-in-one-stop-digging/ (http://www.monomakhos.com/first-rule-of-holes-when-youre-in-one-stop-digging/)

I saw that.  He's lost every shred of credibility with that post.  Sad, really sad.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Melodist on July 17, 2012, 07:25:05 PM
he seemed to be a true asset to our faith.

I agree. He served well in the positions he was in before being elected Metropolitan. Having admitted his own personal shortcomings as an administrator in the position of metropolitan, regardless of what position he will find himself in when the dust settles, I do honestly hope that he ends up in a position where he will be able to best serve the OCA and Orthodoxy in general in North America.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Marc1152 on July 17, 2012, 08:23:45 PM
Quote

I can see His Emminence is known to you only by name. He would truly bring disaster upon our church. Yes, he is brilliant, devout, and talented. But his very Russian style of leadership would never work here.

Maybe just for a couple years to bring order.

I have spent time with Met. Hilarion. I cant attest to his leadership style, Russian or not, but he is very wise in his personal style.
Sounds like what the doctor has ordered to me.

My Priest was ordained by him at all levels. Just after he was made a Deacon, he was serving the Liturgy with  the Met. He recounts that he did not really know what he was doing and went out from the Altar with the sensor. He walked back and forth, back and forth in front of the Icon Screen until all eyebrows were up and there were a few giggles.

He got back to the Altar when Met Hilarion looked at him and said............. "Perfect"    

I didn't mean he was evil. He's extraordinarily kind and cultured. But for example, take a look at his comments a year or so ago to Der Spiegel (German news pub) about the breakdown in discussions between Orthodox and Lutherans. "Brisk" would be about the most generous spin I could put on it. Needlessly blunt and rude would be closer. And it's not a translation issue. The interview was in German, which I speak, being half Viennese. I believe we do not need a bishop given to harsh public comments that offend his audience. And even apart from this, I do not think he will leave Russia. He is being guided to a much different future.
[/quote]

Are we talking about the same guy? He officially lives in Australia and spends most of his time in New York, Met of Rocor.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: kijabeboy03 on July 17, 2012, 08:29:40 PM
I think there's been a confusion of Metropolitans Hilarion (Kapral) of New York and the ROCOR and Hilarion (Alfeyev) of Volokolamsk, head of external affairs for the Moscow Patriarchate...

Quote

I can see His Emminence is known to you only by name. He would truly bring disaster upon our church. Yes, he is brilliant, devout, and talented. But his very Russian style of leadership would never work here.

Maybe just for a couple years to bring order.

I have spent time with Met. Hilarion. I cant attest to his leadership style, Russian or not, but he is very wise in his personal style.
Sounds like what the doctor has ordered to me.

My Priest was ordained by him at all levels. Just after he was made a Deacon, he was serving the Liturgy with  the Met. He recounts that he did not really know what he was doing and went out from the Altar with the sensor. He walked back and forth, back and forth in front of the Icon Screen until all eyebrows were up and there were a few giggles.

He got back to the Altar when Met Hilarion looked at him and said............. "Perfect"    

I didn't mean he was evil. He's extraordinarily kind and cultured. But for example, take a look at his comments a year or so ago to Der Spiegel (German news pub) about the breakdown in discussions between Orthodox and Lutherans. "Brisk" would be about the most generous spin I could put on it. Needlessly blunt and rude would be closer. And it's not a translation issue. The interview was in German, which I speak, being half Viennese. I believe we do not need a bishop given to harsh public comments that offend his audience. And even apart from this, I do not think he will leave Russia. He is being guided to a much different future.

Are we talking about the same guy? He officially lives in Australia and spends most of his time in New York, Met of Rocor.
[/quote]
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Marc1152 on July 17, 2012, 08:35:46 PM
I think there's been a confusion of Metropolitans Hilarion (Kapral) of New York and the ROCOR and Hilarion (Alfeyev) of Volokolamsk, head of external affairs for the Moscow Patriarchate...

Quote

I can see His Emminence is known to you only by name. He would truly bring disaster upon our church. Yes, he is brilliant, devout, and talented. But his very Russian style of leadership would never work here.

Maybe just for a couple years to bring order.

I have spent time with Met. Hilarion. I cant attest to his leadership style, Russian or not, but he is very wise in his personal style.
Sounds like what the doctor has ordered to me.

My Priest was ordained by him at all levels. Just after he was made a Deacon, he was serving the Liturgy with  the Met. He recounts that he did not really know what he was doing and went out from the Altar with the sensor. He walked back and forth, back and forth in front of the Icon Screen until all eyebrows were up and there were a few giggles.

He got back to the Altar when Met Hilarion looked at him and said............. "Perfect"    

I didn't mean he was evil. He's extraordinarily kind and cultured. But for example, take a look at his comments a year or so ago to Der Spiegel (German news pub) about the breakdown in discussions between Orthodox and Lutherans. "Brisk" would be about the most generous spin I could put on it. Needlessly blunt and rude would be closer. And it's not a translation issue. The interview was in German, which I speak, being half Viennese. I believe we do not need a bishop given to harsh public comments that offend his audience. And even apart from this, I do not think he will leave Russia. He is being guided to a much different future.

Are we talking about the same guy? He officially lives in Australia and spends most of his time in New York, Met of Rocor.
[/quote]

Yes, Met of Rocor... We have a Russian Tradition Bishop right here in the USA, not that he wants the job of heading the OCA, but there is precedent for it.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Αριστοκλής on July 17, 2012, 09:42:25 PM
No edit.

I would like to say I have been following alot of blogs on this, from Episcopalians, to Baptists, Roman Catholics, and Anglicans.

They dont denounce the Holy Synod (well...except for one....no not mono...its an Anglican blog) but they say how much he'll be missed and how great a voice he was for American Orthodoxy. His Eminence is loved by alot of folks.

I hope he does get an episcopal assignment because he seemed to be a true asset to our faith.

I am surprised that Stokoe hasnt said too much (except for some Chicago Tribune piece or something)

PP

Good grief!  Baptists are talking about this?  I had no idea he was even their radar.
I imagine his signing the Manhatten Declaration put both him and American Orthodoxy on a very large range radar.
Sorry to see him go. I am.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: kijabeboy03 on July 17, 2012, 09:59:45 PM
What precedent? Even when the Russian Orthodox Metropolia/OCA was part of the ROCOR the local ROCOR hierarchs in North America were submitted to the Metropolia's head and not the other way around...

I think there's been a confusion of Metropolitans Hilarion (Kapral) of New York and the ROCOR and Hilarion (Alfeyev) of Volokolamsk, head of external affairs for the Moscow Patriarchate...

Quote

I can see His Emminence is known to you only by name. He would truly bring disaster upon our church. Yes, he is brilliant, devout, and talented. But his very Russian style of leadership would never work here.

Maybe just for a couple years to bring order.

I have spent time with Met. Hilarion. I cant attest to his leadership style, Russian or not, but he is very wise in his personal style.
Sounds like what the doctor has ordered to me.

My Priest was ordained by him at all levels. Just after he was made a Deacon, he was serving the Liturgy with  the Met. He recounts that he did not really know what he was doing and went out from the Altar with the sensor. He walked back and forth, back and forth in front of the Icon Screen until all eyebrows were up and there were a few giggles.

He got back to the Altar when Met Hilarion looked at him and said............. "Perfect"    

I didn't mean he was evil. He's extraordinarily kind and cultured. But for example, take a look at his comments a year or so ago to Der Spiegel (German news pub) about the breakdown in discussions between Orthodox and Lutherans. "Brisk" would be about the most generous spin I could put on it. Needlessly blunt and rude would be closer. And it's not a translation issue. The interview was in German, which I speak, being half Viennese. I believe we do not need a bishop given to harsh public comments that offend his audience. And even apart from this, I do not think he will leave Russia. He is being guided to a much different future.

Are we talking about the same guy? He officially lives in Australia and spends most of his time in New York, Met of Rocor.

Yes, Met of Rocor... We have a Russian Tradition Bishop right here in the USA, not that he wants the job of heading the OCA, but there is precedent for it.
[/quote]
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Altar Server on July 17, 2012, 11:22:55 PM
I hadn't seen anyone post it so I'll post it if it's already here I apologize

The Holy Synods letter on Metropolitan Jonah's resignation

http://oca.org/PDF/NEWS/2012/2012-0716-holy-synod-statement.pdf
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: podkarpatska on July 17, 2012, 11:52:10 PM
Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Hermogenes on July 18, 2012, 12:06:08 AM
Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html

Wow. That is an incredibly inflammatory headline. Not to mention the article's factual errors. Don't they have anyone check this stuff?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: orthonorm on July 18, 2012, 12:11:36 AM
Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html

Wow. That is an incredibly inflammatory headline. Not to mention the article's factual errors. Don't they have anyone check this stuff?

You haven't had a lot of experience with the press, especially at the level of a paper like the Philadelphia Enquirer, I take it?

Will that story actually make the paper? Anymore a lot of the internet content of paper's websites is not much more than semi-sourced blog material which never actually goes into print. Not that that matters as it probably gets more readership than the print material.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Hermogenes on July 18, 2012, 12:12:27 AM
Quote

I can see His Emminence is known to you only by name. He would truly bring disaster upon our church. Yes, he is brilliant, devout, and talented. But his very Russian style of leadership would never work here.

Maybe just for a couple years to bring order.

I have spent time with Met. Hilarion. I cant attest to his leadership style, Russian or not, but he is very wise in his personal style.
Sounds like what the doctor has ordered to me.

My Priest was ordained by him at all levels. Just after he was made a Deacon, he was serving the Liturgy with  the Met. He recounts that he did not really know what he was doing and went out from the Altar with the sensor. He walked back and forth, back and forth in front of the Icon Screen until all eyebrows were up and there were a few giggles.

He got back to the Altar when Met Hilarion looked at him and said............. "Perfect"    

Quote
I didn't mean he was evil. He's extraordinarily kind and cultured. But for example, take a look at his comments a year or so ago to Der Spiegel (German news pub) about the breakdown in discussions between Orthodox and Lutherans. "Brisk" would be about the most generous spin I could put on it. Needlessly blunt and rude would be closer. And it's not a translation issue. The interview was in German, which I speak, being half Viennese. I believe we do not need a bishop given to harsh public comments that offend his audience. And even apart from this, I do not think he will leave Russia. He is being guided to a much different future.

I think you two are talking about two different Hilarions:

Met. Hilarion of ROCOR and Met. Hilarion Alfeyev.  



I was speaking of Metropolitan Hilarion Alfayev, of the Moscow Patriarcate external relations department.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Hermogenes on July 18, 2012, 12:14:00 AM
Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html

Wow. That is an incredibly inflammatory headline. Not to mention the article's factual errors. Don't they have anyone check this stuff?

You haven't had a lot of experience with the press, especially at the level of a paper like the Philadelphia Enquirer, I take it?

Will that story actually make the paper? Anymore a lot of the internet content of paper's websites is not much more than semi-sourced blog material which never actually goes into print. Not that that matters as it probably gets more readership than the print material.

I was a professional journalist for a dozen years.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: orthonorm on July 18, 2012, 12:15:01 AM
Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html

Wow. That is an incredibly inflammatory headline. Not to mention the article's factual errors. Don't they have anyone check this stuff?

You haven't had a lot of experience with the press, especially at the level of a paper like the Philadelphia Enquirer, I take it?

Will that story actually make the paper? Anymore a lot of the internet content of paper's websites is not much more than semi-sourced blog material which never actually goes into print. Not that that matters as it probably gets more readership than the print material.

I was a professional journalist for a dozen years.

Then how are you surprised?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Hermogenes on July 18, 2012, 12:21:23 AM
Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html

Wow. That is an incredibly inflammatory headline. Not to mention the article's factual errors. Don't they have anyone check this stuff?

You haven't had a lot of experience with the press, especially at the level of a paper like the Philadelphia Enquirer, I take it?

Will that story actually make the paper? Anymore a lot of the internet content of paper's websites is not much more than semi-sourced blog material which never actually goes into print. Not that that matters as it probably gets more readership than the print material.

I was a professional journalist for a dozen years.

Then how are you surprised?
I guess I would have expected a little more in the way of professionalism. This reads like something from a personal blog, especially with the number of errors of fact. Even the Post and the News in NY, rags though they be, would have taken care to note the it is Rev. Eric Tosi; and that the rape has not been proven.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 18, 2012, 12:25:56 AM
Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html

Wow. That is an incredibly inflammatory headline. Not to mention the article's factual errors. Don't they have anyone check this stuff?

You haven't had a lot of experience with the press, especially at the level of a paper like the Philadelphia Enquirer, I take it?

Will that story actually make the paper? Anymore a lot of the internet content of paper's websites is not much more than semi-sourced blog material which never actually goes into print. Not that that matters as it probably gets more readership than the print material.

I was a professional journalist for a dozen years.

Then how are you surprised?
I guess I would have expected a little more in the way of professionalism. This reads like something from a personal blog, especially with the number of errors of fact. Even the Post and the News in NY, rags though they be, would have taken care to note the it is Rev. Eric Tosi; and that the rape has not been proven.
For those who choose not to read the article, Fr. Eric Tosi (as opposed to Fr. Erik Possi) is named as the synod spokesman, NOT as the alleged rapist priest. 8)
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: orthonorm on July 18, 2012, 12:35:31 AM
Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html

Wow. That is an incredibly inflammatory headline. Not to mention the article's factual errors. Don't they have anyone check this stuff?

You haven't had a lot of experience with the press, especially at the level of a paper like the Philadelphia Enquirer, I take it?

Will that story actually make the paper? Anymore a lot of the internet content of paper's websites is not much more than semi-sourced blog material which never actually goes into print. Not that that matters as it probably gets more readership than the print material.

I was a professional journalist for a dozen years.

Then how are you surprised?
I guess I would have expected a little more in the way of professionalism. This reads like something from a personal blog, especially with the number of errors of fact. Even the Post and the News in NY, rags though they be, would have taken care to note the it is Rev. Eric Tosi; and that the rape has not been proven.

Yeah, see my bolded portion.

You need to stick the few decent American papers and a handful of foreign papers anymore to get decent writing and journalism.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 18, 2012, 12:45:25 AM
Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html

Wow. That is an incredibly inflammatory headline. Not to mention the article's factual errors. Don't they have anyone check this stuff?

I think they copy-pasted a lot from Wikipedia as well. Some of that stuff looks like it came directly off the article about the financial scandal and the OCA.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: primuspilus on July 18, 2012, 08:07:06 AM
Quote
I guess I would have expected a little more in the way of professionalism
Unfortunately, most "news stories" nowadays are done by bloggers during their lunch hour at their real job.

Quote
Good grief!  Baptists are talking about this?  I had no idea he was even their radar
+Jonah reached out to alot of different folks of many stripes.

PP
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on July 18, 2012, 09:17:57 AM
Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html

Wow. That is an incredibly inflammatory headline. Not to mention the article's factual errors. Don't they have anyone check this stuff?

Aside from getting Father Tosi's last name incorrect, I thought the article was not unduly inflammatory or inaccurate. Can you explain what you meant by your comment?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Schultz on July 18, 2012, 09:24:00 AM
Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html

Wow. That is an incredibly inflammatory headline. Not to mention the article's factual errors. Don't they have anyone check this stuff?

Aside from getting Father Tosi's last name incorrect, I thought the article was not unduly inflammatory or inaccurate. Can you explain what you meant by your comment?

"rapist priest"?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 18, 2012, 09:37:49 AM
Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html

Wow. That is an incredibly inflammatory headline. Not to mention the article's factual errors. Don't they have anyone check this stuff?

Aside from getting Father Tosi's last name incorrect, I thought the article was not unduly inflammatory or inaccurate. Can you explain what you meant by your comment?
You can say that after reading nothing more than the headline? ??? For starters, His Beatitude was not fired. (And if you're going to say, "fired, asked to resign, what's the difference?", you're going to have to define what gives you the license to go beyond the official record on this.)
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Hermogenes on July 18, 2012, 09:47:10 AM
Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html

Wow. That is an incredibly inflammatory headline. Not to mention the article's factual errors. Don't they have anyone check this stuff?

Aside from getting Father Tosi's last name incorrect, I thought the article was not unduly inflammatory or inaccurate. Can you explain what you meant by your comment?

"rapist priest"?


Thank you. The issues between the synod and the metropolitan go back at least three years and cover a range of issues. The handling of the alleged rape by the priest in question is one of the most serious, but the rape has yet to be proven, as I wrote in my previous comment. Also, His Beatitude was given the option of taking a leave of absence, so to suggest he was fired, ousted, axed, given the heave-ho, or any other similar expression is also inaccurate. HB elected to resign, a not insignificant distinction.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on July 18, 2012, 09:55:09 AM
Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html

Wow. That is an incredibly inflammatory headline. Not to mention the article's factual errors. Don't they have anyone check this stuff?

Aside from getting Father Tosi's last name incorrect, I thought the article was not unduly inflammatory or inaccurate. Can you explain what you meant by your comment?

"rapist priest"?


Thank you. The issues between the synod and the metropolitan go back at least three years and cover a range of issues. The handling of the alleged rape by the priest in question is one of the most serious, but the rape has yet to be proven, as I wrote in my previous comment. Also, His Beatitude was given the option of taking a leave of absence, so to suggest he was fired, ousted, axed, given the heave-ho, or any other similar expression is also inaccurate. HB elected to resign, a not insignificant distinction.

I stand corrected; obviously I have been tainted by my participation in Monomakhos, where all kinds of people are maintaining that +Jonah was fired or forced into resignation (the same thing). As for the distinction between "rapist"and "alleged rapist," I think it would be fair to point out that newspaper headlines are notorious for not being scrupulous as they are often used as mere hooks to get the reader to read on.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: primuspilus on July 18, 2012, 10:05:21 AM
Quote
stand corrected; obviously I have been tainted by my participation in Monomakhos, where all kinds of people are maintaining that +Jonah was fired or forced into resignation (the same thing)
It is the same thing. Forcing someone to quit is essentially firing them. You just blackmail them saying, "Do it our way, or we will embarass you".

Quote
I think it would be fair to point out that newspaper headlines are notorious for not being scrupulous as they are often used as mere hooks to get the reader to read on.
Daddy's gotta make money so baby can eat.

PP
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Hermogenes on July 18, 2012, 10:07:17 AM



Quote

I stand corrected; obviously I have been tainted by my participation in Monomakhos, where all kinds of people are maintaining that +Jonah was fired or forced into resignation (the same thing). As for the distinction between "rapist"and "alleged rapist," I think it would be fair to point out that newspaper headlines are notorious for not being scrupulous as they are often used as mere hooks to get the reader to read on.

I don't think the synod meant the offer of a leave of absence to be anything but what it was. I believe it was an attempt to help a brother bishop. These men are not gangsters. Those whom I know are loving, deeply spiritual people.

The NY tabloids are famous for in-your-face headlines. The difference between rapist and alleged rapist is still worth preserving, as most legal departments would advise.

We are off topic. My apologies. No more from me on the subject of crappy journalism.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: podkarpatska on July 18, 2012, 10:38:51 AM



Quote

I stand corrected; obviously I have been tainted by my participation in Monomakhos, where all kinds of people are maintaining that +Jonah was fired or forced into resignation (the same thing). As for the distinction between "rapist"and "alleged rapist," I think it would be fair to point out that newspaper headlines are notorious for not being scrupulous as they are often used as mere hooks to get the reader to read on.

I don't think the synod meant the offer of a leave of absence to be anything but what it was. I believe it was an attempt to help a brother bishop. These men are not gangsters. Those whom I know are loving, deeply spiritual people.

The NY tabloids are famous for in-your-face headlines. The difference between rapist and alleged rapist is still worth preserving, as most legal departments would advise.

We are off topic. My apologies. No more from me on the subject of crappy journalism.

Absolutely agreed on this!
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Hermogenes on July 18, 2012, 10:52:54 AM



Quote

I stand corrected; obviously I have been tainted by my participation in Monomakhos, where all kinds of people are maintaining that +Jonah was fired or forced into resignation (the same thing). As for the distinction between "rapist"and "alleged rapist," I think it would be fair to point out that newspaper headlines are notorious for not being scrupulous as they are often used as mere hooks to get the reader to read on.

I don't think the synod meant the offer of a leave of absence to be anything but what it was. I believe it was an attempt to help a brother bishop. These men are not gangsters. Those whom I know are loving, deeply spiritual people.

The NY tabloids are famous for in-your-face headlines. The difference between rapist and alleged rapist is still worth preserving, as most legal departments would advise.

We are off topic. My apologies. No more from me on the subject of crappy journalism.

Well, maybe one more. This is what a paper like the Post might write for a hed: "Church Boss Resigns in Sex Priest Cover-Up"
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 18, 2012, 10:55:06 AM
Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html

Wow. That is an incredibly inflammatory headline. Not to mention the article's factual errors. Don't they have anyone check this stuff?

Aside from getting Father Tosi's last name incorrect, I thought the article was not unduly inflammatory or inaccurate. Can you explain what you meant by your comment?

"rapist priest"?


Thank you. The issues between the synod and the metropolitan go back at least three years and cover a range of issues. The handling of the alleged rape by the priest in question is one of the most serious, but the rape has yet to be proven, as I wrote in my previous comment. Also, His Beatitude was given the option of taking a leave of absence, so to suggest he was fired, ousted, axed, given the heave-ho, or any other similar expression is also inaccurate. HB elected to resign, a not insignificant distinction.

I stand corrected; obviously I have been tainted by my participation in Monomakhos, where all kinds of people are maintaining that +Jonah was fired or forced into resignation (the same thing). As for the distinction between "rapist"and "alleged rapist," I think it would be fair to point out that newspaper headlines are notorious for not being scrupulous as they are often used as mere hooks to get the reader to read on.

Scrupulosity takes more words. Headlines need to be short.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Hermogenes on July 18, 2012, 11:01:59 AM
Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html

Wow. That is an incredibly inflammatory headline. Not to mention the article's factual errors. Don't they have anyone check this stuff?

Aside from getting Father Tosi's last name incorrect, I thought the article was not unduly inflammatory or inaccurate. Can you explain what you meant by your comment?

"rapist priest"?


Thank you. The issues between the synod and the metropolitan go back at least three years and cover a range of issues. The handling of the alleged rape by the priest in question is one of the most serious, but the rape has yet to be proven, as I wrote in my previous comment. Also, His Beatitude was given the option of taking a leave of absence, so to suggest he was fired, ousted, axed, given the heave-ho, or any other similar expression is also inaccurate. HB elected to resign, a not insignificant distinction.

I stand corrected; obviously I have been tainted by my participation in Monomakhos, where all kinds of people are maintaining that +Jonah was fired or forced into resignation (the same thing). As for the distinction between "rapist"and "alleged rapist," I think it would be fair to point out that newspaper headlines are notorious for not being scrupulous as they are often used as mere hooks to get the reader to read on.

Scrupulosity takes more words. Headlines need to be short.

If you say "Quits" instead, it's about the same length. It'd fit.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Schultz on July 18, 2012, 11:10:49 AM
Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html

Wow. That is an incredibly inflammatory headline. Not to mention the article's factual errors. Don't they have anyone check this stuff?

Aside from getting Father Tosi's last name incorrect, I thought the article was not unduly inflammatory or inaccurate. Can you explain what you meant by your comment?

"rapist priest"?


Thank you. The issues between the synod and the metropolitan go back at least three years and cover a range of issues. The handling of the alleged rape by the priest in question is one of the most serious, but the rape has yet to be proven, as I wrote in my previous comment. Also, His Beatitude was given the option of taking a leave of absence, so to suggest he was fired, ousted, axed, given the heave-ho, or any other similar expression is also inaccurate. HB elected to resign, a not insignificant distinction.

I stand corrected; obviously I have been tainted by my participation in Monomakhos, where all kinds of people are maintaining that +Jonah was fired or forced into resignation (the same thing). As for the distinction between "rapist"and "alleged rapist," I think it would be fair to point out that newspaper headlines are notorious for not being scrupulous as they are often used as mere hooks to get the reader to read on.

Scrupulosity takes more words. Headlines need to be short.

And I say bollocks to that.  A good writer can be truthful and provocative at the same time. 
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: orthonorm on July 18, 2012, 12:30:30 PM
Major newspapers are picking this up. In tomorrow's Philadephia Enquirer:  http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/162812546.html

Wow. That is an incredibly inflammatory headline. Not to mention the article's factual errors. Don't they have anyone check this stuff?

Aside from getting Father Tosi's last name incorrect, I thought the article was not unduly inflammatory or inaccurate. Can you explain what you meant by your comment?

"rapist priest"?


Thank you. The issues between the synod and the metropolitan go back at least three years and cover a range of issues. The handling of the alleged rape by the priest in question is one of the most serious, but the rape has yet to be proven, as I wrote in my previous comment. Also, His Beatitude was given the option of taking a leave of absence, so to suggest he was fired, ousted, axed, given the heave-ho, or any other similar expression is also inaccurate. HB elected to resign, a not insignificant distinction.

I stand corrected; obviously I have been tainted by my participation in Monomakhos, where all kinds of people are maintaining that +Jonah was fired or forced into resignation (the same thing). As for the distinction between "rapist"and "alleged rapist," I think it would be fair to point out that newspaper headlines are notorious for not being scrupulous as they are often used as mere hooks to get the reader to read on.

Scrupulosity takes more words. Headlines need to be short.

And I say bollocks to that.  A good writer can be truthful and provocative at the same time. 

And it borders on libel in this case. Given the nature of the situation and the problems of the RCC and the recent Penn State debacle, I doubt anyone would think of filing suit over it.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PrincessMommy on July 18, 2012, 12:31:24 PM
I'm wondering if the alleged rape will always stay that way.  I know at Monomokos is making a lot out of the fact that the police never pressed charges.... but if the victim recants then how can the police proceed?  If the alleged victim was coerced into silence then there may not be much the authorities can do....this is very shameful.  The 2nd crime is worse than the 1st.  
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: gzt on July 18, 2012, 01:15:39 PM
The unfortunate thing is that this sort of result is quite common in rape prosecutions. If they even bother to go to the police, the nature of the crime makes it difficult to prosecute. People withdraw, don't testify well, evidence is rough, the system can be adversarial to those making accusations, and I'm no expert at all on this so there are certainly some other factors.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on July 18, 2012, 02:57:10 PM
The unfortunate thing is that this sort of result is quite common in rape prosecutions. If they even bother to go to the police, the nature of the crime makes it difficult to prosecute. People withdraw, don't testify well, evidence is rough, the system can be adversarial to those making accusations, and I'm no expert at all on this so there are certainly some other factors.

Exactly, if the woman involved did not go to the hospital immediately so that a sperm (DNA) sample could be obtained, or save her underwear or clothing for such samples, then it is her word against her rapist. Without any evidence, things would not look very good. During a court procedure, character assassination by defense attorneys who portray her as a loose woman would most likely be her fate.

However, going to the hospital and submitting to their humiliating procedures, could also force her to take drugs that could cause an abortion. Signing an admission form gives the hospital carte blanche to do whatever they deem medically necessary.

It is a no win situation.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Monk Vasyl on July 18, 2012, 03:23:00 PM
The unfortunate thing is that this sort of result is quite common in rape prosecutions. If they even bother to go to the police, the nature of the crime makes it difficult to prosecute. People withdraw, don't testify well, evidence is rough, the system can be adversarial to those making accusations, and I'm no expert at all on this so there are certainly some other factors.

Exactly, if the woman involved did not go to the hospital immediately so that a sperm (DNA) sample could be obtained, or save her underwear or clothing for such samples, then it is her word against her rapist. Without any evidence, things would not look very good. During a court procedure, character assassination by defense attorneys who portray her as a loose woman would most likely be her fate.

However, going to the hospital and submitting to their humiliating procedures, could also force her to take drugs that could cause an abortion. Signing an admission form gives the hospital carte blanche to do whatever they deem medically necessary.

It is a no win situation.

So much for protecting the victim.   :(
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: orthonorm on July 18, 2012, 03:24:22 PM
The unfortunate thing is that this sort of result is quite common in rape prosecutions. If they even bother to go to the police, the nature of the crime makes it difficult to prosecute. People withdraw, don't testify well, evidence is rough, the system can be adversarial to those making accusations, and I'm no expert at all on this so there are certainly some other factors.

Exactly, if the woman involved did not go to the hospital immediately so that a sperm (DNA) sample could be obtained, or save her underwear or clothing for such samples, then it is her word against her rapist. Without any evidence, things would not look very good. During a court procedure, character assassination by defense attorneys who portray her as a loose woman would most likely be her fate.

However, going to the hospital and submitting to their humiliating procedures, could also force her to take drugs that could cause an abortion. Signing an admission form gives the hospital carte blanche to do whatever they deem medically necessary.

It is a no win situation.

Outside medical TV dramas, do you have anything to back this up?

What medical procedures done at a typical American ER when treating a rape victim are humiliating in themselves? How can they force an abortion?

Unlike you, I am familiar with both sides of the situation intimately. I've had close friends who were EM physicians who not only treated such cases but did research within the area and I have accompanied women to the ER after sexual trauma and I dated a woman who had provided in house hospital advocacy work for those claiming to be victim of sexual crime.

I love to criticize the medical establishment, but given the state of affairs in American EM as a primary access pathway to primary care for many people, the revolving door nature of treating those with chronic mental disorder and drug addiction, while treating true trauma, they do a rather sensitive job handling such cases, IME.

Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on July 18, 2012, 03:28:48 PM
The unfortunate thing is that this sort of result is quite common in rape prosecutions. If they even bother to go to the police, the nature of the crime makes it difficult to prosecute. People withdraw, don't testify well, evidence is rough, the system can be adversarial to those making accusations, and I'm no expert at all on this so there are certainly some other factors.

Exactly, if the woman involved did not go to the hospital immediately so that a sperm (DNA) sample could be obtained, or save her underwear or clothing for such samples, then it is her word against her rapist. Without any evidence, things would not look very good. During a court procedure, character assassination by defense attorneys who portray her as a loose woman would most likely be her fate.

However, going to the hospital and submitting to their humiliating procedures, could also force her to take drugs that could cause an abortion. Signing an admission form gives the hospital carte blanche to do whatever they deem medically necessary.

It is a no win situation.

Outside medical TV dramas, do you have anything to back this up?

What medical procedures done at a typical American ER when treating a rape victim are humiliating in themselves? How can they force an abortion?

Unlike you, I am familiar with both sides of the situation intimately. I've had close friends who were EM physicians who not only treated such cases but did research within the area and I have accompanied women to the ER after sexual trauma and I dated a woman who had provided in house hospital advocacy work for those claiming to be victim of sexual crime.

I love to criticize the medical establishment, but given the state of affairs in American EM as a primary access pathway to primary care for many people, the revolving door nature of treating those with chronic mental disorder and drug addiction, while treating true trauma, they do a rather sensitive job handling such cases, IME.



Perhaps it would be best to start another thread as this is going off topic rather quickly.
I will just make one comment: different hospitals have varying procedures.
I have been mistreated and humiliated at some of our local hospitals.
There are "rape" drugs that are commonly administered in non-Catholic hospitals that cause abortions.
Unfortunately, there are some "Catholic" institutions that are not known for being very "Catholic" and were reported by the media as not following the teachings of the Catholic Church.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: orthonorm on July 18, 2012, 03:32:03 PM
The unfortunate thing is that this sort of result is quite common in rape prosecutions. If they even bother to go to the police, the nature of the crime makes it difficult to prosecute. People withdraw, don't testify well, evidence is rough, the system can be adversarial to those making accusations, and I'm no expert at all on this so there are certainly some other factors.

Exactly, if the woman involved did not go to the hospital immediately so that a sperm (DNA) sample could be obtained, or save her underwear or clothing for such samples, then it is her word against her rapist. Without any evidence, things would not look very good. During a court procedure, character assassination by defense attorneys who portray her as a loose woman would most likely be her fate.

However, going to the hospital and submitting to their humiliating procedures, could also force her to take drugs that could cause an abortion. Signing an admission form gives the hospital carte blanche to do whatever they deem medically necessary.

It is a no win situation.

Outside medical TV dramas, do you have anything to back this up?

What medical procedures done at a typical American ER when treating a rape victim are humiliating in themselves? How can they force an abortion?

Unlike you, I am familiar with both sides of the situation intimately. I've had close friends who were EM physicians who not only treated such cases but did research within the area and I have accompanied women to the ER after sexual trauma and I dated a woman who had provided in house hospital advocacy work for those claiming to be victim of sexual crime.

I love to criticize the medical establishment, but given the state of affairs in American EM as a primary access pathway to primary care for many people, the revolving door nature of treating those with chronic mental disorder and drug addiction, while treating true trauma, they do a rather sensitive job handling such cases, IME.



Perhaps it would be best to start another thread as this is going off topic rather quickly.
I will just make one comment: different hospitals have varying procedures.
There are "rape" drugs that are commonly administered in non-Catholic hospitals that cause abortions.

Then you start that thread, but you are doing a disservice to women by making such outlandish allegations which perpetuate the worse sort of rumor mongering which keep women at risk from getting the treatment they need.

And you HAVE ZERO idea of what you are talking about when it comes to "rape drugs".
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on July 18, 2012, 03:43:55 PM
I have an undergraduate degree in health sciences.

And yes, there are the so-called "rape drugs" that are administered to prevent conception and/or cause an abortion.

You start the thread. This is my last post on this subject here.

Back on topic.

This alleged rape victim and her alleged attacker may never get justice, if such a rape happened.

How long did the OCA Synod hold onto this information before taking action?

Why are they reluctant to release the name of the alleged rapist priest, but were so willing to release the dirt on Met. Jonah? If this priest is no longer incarcerated, he could molest someone else.

Instead of releasing that three page letter, the Synod could have released a very succinct statement such as:

Metropolitan Jonah has been placed on Administrative Leave pending an investigation by Police and the OCA Synod for withholding information regarding the alleged rape committed by a priest.

LESS IS BEST.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Schultz on July 18, 2012, 03:48:34 PM
The unfortunate thing is that this sort of result is quite common in rape prosecutions. If they even bother to go to the police, the nature of the crime makes it difficult to prosecute. People withdraw, don't testify well, evidence is rough, the system can be adversarial to those making accusations, and I'm no expert at all on this so there are certainly some other factors.

Exactly, if the woman involved did not go to the hospital immediately so that a sperm (DNA) sample could be obtained, or save her underwear or clothing for such samples, then it is her word against her rapist. Without any evidence, things would not look very good. During a court procedure, character assassination by defense attorneys who portray her as a loose woman would most likely be her fate.

However, going to the hospital and submitting to their humiliating procedures, could also force her to take drugs that could cause an abortion. Signing an admission form gives the hospital carte blanche to do whatever they deem medically necessary.

It is a no win situation.

Outside medical TV dramas, do you have anything to back this up?

What medical procedures done at a typical American ER when treating a rape victim are humiliating in themselves? How can they force an abortion?

Unlike you, I am familiar with both sides of the situation intimately. I've had close friends who were EM physicians who not only treated such cases but did research within the area and I have accompanied women to the ER after sexual trauma and I dated a woman who had provided in house hospital advocacy work for those claiming to be victim of sexual crime.

I love to criticize the medical establishment, but given the state of affairs in American EM as a primary access pathway to primary care for many people, the revolving door nature of treating those with chronic mental disorder and drug addiction, while treating true trauma, they do a rather sensitive job handling such cases, IME.



What he said...and I add that my wife and sister are both rape survivors and both have said repeatedly that what you see on TV and in the movies is nothing like what happens in an ER/UC facility.

And that nothing a doctor or nurse will/can do to is can be any more humiliating than being actually raped.  Terrifying, yes, but that has more to do with the fear mongering and judgment from the rest of society than with anything a health professional would do, especially in this day and age. 
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Hermogenes on July 18, 2012, 03:49:19 PM
I have an undergraduate degree in health sciences.

And yes, there are the so-called "rape drugs" that are administered to prevent conception and/or cause an abortion.

You start the thread. This is my last post on this subject here.

Back on topic.

This alleged rape victim and her alleged attacker may never get justice, if such a rape happened.

How long did the OCA Synod hold onto this information before taking action?

Why are they reluctant to release the name of the alleged rapist priest, but were so willing to release the dirt on Met. Jonah? If this priest is no longer incarcerated, he could molest someone else.

Instead of releasing that three page letter, the Synod could have released a very succinct statement such as:

Metropolitan Jonah has been placed on Administrative Leave pending an investigation by Police and the OCA Synod for withholding information regarding the alleged rape committed by a priest.

LESS IS BEST.


Amen dico vobis.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Zenovia on July 18, 2012, 04:23:34 PM
As an OCA member who occasionally followed the scandals, I am glad the Holy Synod put out this statement.  
I have met Metropolitan Jonah and have been supportive of him.   He is a man of not only wisdom, but an ability
to communicate the spiritual to those of us with a more secular mindset (not that that's a good thing).
I was thinking the Holy Synod were just some old fuddy-duddies who were resisting change.
(I know Orthodox don't think much of change).

But as a parishioner friend said to me, the actions of the Holy Synod have been unanimous.  Furthermore,
I read biographical excerpts on these people, and wow, many have lived difficult or at least thoughtful lives.
Could *all* of them been wrong?

There is no excuse for covering up a crime.  I believe that I had a run-in (nothing major, but nevertheless disturbing)
with the priest at the center of this scandal.  I reported the incident to my priest, because I felt it was my duty as a member
of the OCA.   I did not want to see the church's reputation tarnished by this priest and maybe more importantly, members
being harmed by his actions.

The apparent fact that the Metropolitan tried to sweep this under the rug and, worse yet, pawn him off on another
jurisdiction is to say the least disturbing.  If true, this is reason enough to request the Metropolitan's resignation.
Thus the Synod's letter.    I'm glad to hear their side of the story and feel bad for doubting them.

 
(This post is a reaction; upon hearing other evidence I reserve the right to change my mind.)

You said:  "Could all of them be wrong?"  My answer is YES.  Satan can be very deceptive, and if you don't believe me, then read the book on the life of Saint Nektarios. 

Now my suggestion to the OCA, find an Archbishop that excels in double speak, that is willing to hide in his cell, and will only come out to greet the rich and powerful.  Also one who's smart enough to respond to everything with that time old recipe of:  I will tend to it in two weeks, two months or two years. :D

I know I'm being sarcastic and I apologize for it.  Let's just say my cynicism comes from my years of experiences.  As for the Metropolitan, I have no knowledge of what's going on although someone did tell me yesterday that he was getting too close to the Russian Church.   It might be true, or it might not be true, if though it is true, then what would that entail and why would it cause friction?  Also if it is the case, wouldn't it be smarter to tell the congregants exactly what the problems are, as well as the pros and cons, instead of pacifying them with tales of having covered up sexual abuse, (something that doesn't seem to fit in with his character),  and by doing so, commiting  slander and calumny towards a hierarch?   

Again I say, if they are doing it with the belief that it's for the good of the Church, and that the end justifies the means, then I would ask them how anything can be good for a Church when the means are sinful?  The Holy Spirit cannot work through sinful means, and the Church is the Holy Spirit.

Anyway I've said enough and I apologize for it.  I'm not a member of the OCA so I really have no right to give my opinion...and that's exactly what it is, my opinion and nothing else. So take it as such.  ;)

   
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 18, 2012, 04:36:04 PM
As an OCA member who occasionally followed the scandals, I am glad the Holy Synod put out this statement.  
I have met Metropolitan Jonah and have been supportive of him.   He is a man of not only wisdom, but an ability
to communicate the spiritual to those of us with a more secular mindset (not that that's a good thing).
I was thinking the Holy Synod were just some old fuddy-duddies who were resisting change.
(I know Orthodox don't think much of change).

But as a parishioner friend said to me, the actions of the Holy Synod have been unanimous.  Furthermore,
I read biographical excerpts on these people, and wow, many have lived difficult or at least thoughtful lives.
Could *all* of them been wrong?

There is no excuse for covering up a crime.  I believe that I had a run-in (nothing major, but nevertheless disturbing)
with the priest at the center of this scandal.  I reported the incident to my priest, because I felt it was my duty as a member
of the OCA.   I did not want to see the church's reputation tarnished by this priest and maybe more importantly, members
being harmed by his actions.

The apparent fact that the Metropolitan tried to sweep this under the rug and, worse yet, pawn him off on another
jurisdiction is to say the least disturbing.  If true, this is reason enough to request the Metropolitan's resignation.
Thus the Synod's letter.    I'm glad to hear their side of the story and feel bad for doubting them.

 
(This post is a reaction; upon hearing other evidence I reserve the right to change my mind.)

You said:  "Could all of them be wrong?"  My answer is YES.  Satan can be very deceptive, and if you don't believe me, then read the book on the life of Saint Nektarios. 

Now my suggestion to the OCA, find an Archbishop that excels in double speak, that is willing to hide in his cell, and will only come out to greet the rich and powerful.  Also one who's smart enough to respond to everything with that time old recipe of:  I will tend to it in two weeks, two months or two years. :D

I know I'm being sarcastic and I apologize for it.  Let's just say my cynicism comes from my years of experiences.  As for the Metropolitan, I have no knowledge of what's going on although someone did tell me yesterday that he was getting too close to the Russian Church.   It might be true, or it might not be true, if though it is true, then what would that entail and why would it cause friction?  Also if it is the case, wouldn't it be smarter to tell the congregants exactly what the problems are, as well as the pros and cons, instead of pacifying them with tales of having covered up sexual abuse, (something that doesn't seem to fit in with his character),  and by doing so, commiting  slander and calumny towards a hierarch?   

Again I say, if they are doing it with the belief that it's for the good of the Church, and that the end justifies the means, then I would ask them how anything can be good for a Church when the means are sinful?  The Holy Spirit cannot work through sinful means, and the Church is the Holy Spirit.

Anyway I've said enough and I apologize for it.  I'm not a member of the OCA so I really have no right to give my opinion...and that's exactly what it is, my opinion and nothing else. So take it as such.  ;)   
1. Why submit a post together with an apology for submitting the post, all within the same post? If you really meant to submit the post, then don't apologize for it. If you're sorry for posting this material as you type it, then don't post it.
2. You are engaging in slander and calumny against the Synod of Bishops of the OCA. You do so by accusing them of making false accusations against His Beatitude in some clandestine effort to cover up the real matter. You do so also be engaging in this idiotic, half-baked rumor mongering and speculation. Now you better stop before the condemnation you pronounce against the Synod comes back to fall on your own head.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Zenovia on July 18, 2012, 08:50:38 PM
As an OCA member who occasionally followed the scandals, I am glad the Holy Synod put out this statement.  
I have met Metropolitan Jonah and have been supportive of him.   He is a man of not only wisdom, but an ability
to communicate the spiritual to those of us with a more secular mindset (not that that's a good thing).
I was thinking the Holy Synod were just some old fuddy-duddies who were resisting change.
(I know Orthodox don't think much of change).

But as a parishioner friend said to me, the actions of the Holy Synod have been unanimous.  Furthermore,
I read biographical excerpts on these people, and wow, many have lived difficult or at least thoughtful lives.
Could *all* of them been wrong?

There is no excuse for covering up a crime.  I believe that I had a run-in (nothing major, but nevertheless disturbing)
with the priest at the center of this scandal.  I reported the incident to my priest, because I felt it was my duty as a member
of the OCA.   I did not want to see the church's reputation tarnished by this priest and maybe more importantly, members
being harmed by his actions.

The apparent fact that the Metropolitan tried to sweep this under the rug and, worse yet, pawn him off on another
jurisdiction is to say the least disturbing.  If true, this is reason enough to request the Metropolitan's resignation.
Thus the Synod's letter.    I'm glad to hear their side of the story and feel bad for doubting them.

 
(This post is a reaction; upon hearing other evidence I reserve the right to change my mind.)

You said:  "Could all of them be wrong?"  My answer is YES.  Satan can be very deceptive, and if you don't believe me, then read the book on the life of Saint Nektarios. 

Now my suggestion to the OCA, find an Archbishop that excels in double speak, that is willing to hide in his cell, and will only come out to greet the rich and powerful.  Also one who's smart enough to respond to everything with that time old recipe of:  I will tend to it in two weeks, two months or two years. :D

I know I'm being sarcastic and I apologize for it.  Let's just say my cynicism comes from my years of experiences.  As for the Metropolitan, I have no knowledge of what's going on although someone did tell me yesterday that he was getting too close to the Russian Church.   It might be true, or it might not be true, if though it is true, then what would that entail and why would it cause friction?  Also if it is the case, wouldn't it be smarter to tell the congregants exactly what the problems are, as well as the pros and cons, instead of pacifying them with tales of having covered up sexual abuse, (something that doesn't seem to fit in with his character),  and by doing so, commiting  slander and calumny towards a hierarch?   

Again I say, if they are doing it with the belief that it's for the good of the Church, and that the end justifies the means, then I would ask them how anything can be good for a Church when the means are sinful?  The Holy Spirit cannot work through sinful means, and the Church is the Holy Spirit.

Anyway I've said enough and I apologize for it.  I'm not a member of the OCA so I really have no right to give my opinion...and that's exactly what it is, my opinion and nothing else. So take it as such.  ;)   
1. Why submit a post together with an apology for submitting the post, all within the same post? If you really meant to submit the post, then don't apologize for it. If you're sorry for posting this material as you type it, then don't post it.
2. You are engaging in slander and calumny against the Synod of Bishops of the OCA. You do so by accusing them of making false accusations against His Beatitude in some clandestine effort to cover up the real matter. You do so also be engaging in this idiotic, half-baked rumor mongering and speculation. Now you better stop before the condemnation you pronounce against the Synod comes back to fall on your own head.

I'm not engaging in slander and calumny, because I said it might be true and it might not be true, but there are rumors out there and I think they should be addressed.   It goes against my nature to accept the conclusion of a few bishops towards another bishop.  My conscience doesn't allow it.   I believe in openess.

Look, don't get me wrong.   I merely said that without sufficient proof I don't like to condemn anyone.  Anyway  I don't involve myself in matters that concern the Church, except for the spiritual matters since a Churches only purpose is in  facilitating people towards achieving unity with the Divine.   As for apologizing, I did so because I knew  many would be offended by my opinion...as you were.   Sorry 'bout that. :)
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 19, 2012, 12:14:16 AM
As an OCA member who occasionally followed the scandals, I am glad the Holy Synod put out this statement.  
I have met Metropolitan Jonah and have been supportive of him.   He is a man of not only wisdom, but an ability
to communicate the spiritual to those of us with a more secular mindset (not that that's a good thing).
I was thinking the Holy Synod were just some old fuddy-duddies who were resisting change.
(I know Orthodox don't think much of change).

But as a parishioner friend said to me, the actions of the Holy Synod have been unanimous.  Furthermore,
I read biographical excerpts on these people, and wow, many have lived difficult or at least thoughtful lives.
Could *all* of them been wrong?

There is no excuse for covering up a crime.  I believe that I had a run-in (nothing major, but nevertheless disturbing)
with the priest at the center of this scandal.  I reported the incident to my priest, because I felt it was my duty as a member
of the OCA.   I did not want to see the church's reputation tarnished by this priest and maybe more importantly, members
being harmed by his actions.

The apparent fact that the Metropolitan tried to sweep this under the rug and, worse yet, pawn him off on another
jurisdiction is to say the least disturbing.  If true, this is reason enough to request the Metropolitan's resignation.
Thus the Synod's letter.    I'm glad to hear their side of the story and feel bad for doubting them.

 
(This post is a reaction; upon hearing other evidence I reserve the right to change my mind.)

You said:  "Could all of them be wrong?"  My answer is YES.  Satan can be very deceptive, and if you don't believe me, then read the book on the life of Saint Nektarios. 

Now my suggestion to the OCA, find an Archbishop that excels in double speak, that is willing to hide in his cell, and will only come out to greet the rich and powerful.  Also one who's smart enough to respond to everything with that time old recipe of:  I will tend to it in two weeks, two months or two years. :D

I know I'm being sarcastic and I apologize for it.  Let's just say my cynicism comes from my years of experiences.  As for the Metropolitan, I have no knowledge of what's going on although someone did tell me yesterday that he was getting too close to the Russian Church.   It might be true, or it might not be true, if though it is true, then what would that entail and why would it cause friction?  Also if it is the case, wouldn't it be smarter to tell the congregants exactly what the problems are, as well as the pros and cons, instead of pacifying them with tales of having covered up sexual abuse, (something that doesn't seem to fit in with his character),  and by doing so, commiting  slander and calumny towards a hierarch?   

Again I say, if they are doing it with the belief that it's for the good of the Church, and that the end justifies the means, then I would ask them how anything can be good for a Church when the means are sinful?  The Holy Spirit cannot work through sinful means, and the Church is the Holy Spirit.

Anyway I've said enough and I apologize for it.  I'm not a member of the OCA so I really have no right to give my opinion...and that's exactly what it is, my opinion and nothing else. So take it as such.  ;)   
1. Why submit a post together with an apology for submitting the post, all within the same post? If you really meant to submit the post, then don't apologize for it. If you're sorry for posting this material as you type it, then don't post it.
2. You are engaging in slander and calumny against the Synod of Bishops of the OCA. You do so by accusing them of making false accusations against His Beatitude in some clandestine effort to cover up the real matter. You do so also be engaging in this idiotic, half-baked rumor mongering and speculation. Now you better stop before the condemnation you pronounce against the Synod comes back to fall on your own head.

I'm not engaging in slander and calumny, because I said it might be true and it might not be true, but there are rumors out there and I think they should be addressed.   It goes against my nature to accept the conclusion of a few bishops towards another bishop.  My conscience doesn't allow it.   I believe in openess.

Look, don't get me wrong.   I merely said that without sufficient proof I don't like to condemn anyone.  Anyway  I don't involve myself in matters that concern the Church, except for the spiritual matters since a Churches only purpose is in  facilitating people towards achieving unity with the Divine.   As for apologizing, I did so because I knew  many would be offended by my opinion...as you were.   Sorry 'bout that. :)

Until you recant what you said in the following post, I have no reason to take you seriously when you say you're not engaging in slander and calumny against the Holy Synod of the OCA:
I'm going to assume the 'rationale' behind the destruction of the Metropolitan's reputation is that they are doing it for the good of the Church and that  the end justifies the means.   It's the concept of 'economia' going haywire.   Well I have news for anyone who thinks this way, the Church is the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit doesn't work through sin...so no matter how one looks at it, to slander and calumniate another person is  a sin. >:(
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 19, 2012, 03:21:23 AM
^ I think it may be instructive for me to share where I'm coming from on this so you and everyone else here can understand why I bristle at such conduct as you have shown, Zenovia. On the one hand, I have a lot of love and respect for His Beatitude, the former Metropolitan Jonah, and I will fight just as hard as you to defend him against false witness. On the other hand, I have just as much love and respect for my own diocesan bishop, Archbishop Benjamin of San Francisco, and for the Synod on which he sits. As such, I will fight with equal diligence to protect his good name against false witness.

I don't know all the details of what's going on in Syosset between Metropolitan Jonah and the rest of the Synod. I'm not privileged to know. I don't need to know. I don't want to know. I simply don't see how knowledge of every lurid detail is good for my salvation, so I'm not even going to ask. In the end, I choose to trust that God will guide all parties involved and that the truth will win out and make itself heard as much as we the faithful can bear it. In the mean time, I see it as my duty to combat the rumor mongering, gossip, undue speculation, slander and libel flying around against both sides of this mess. Though I disagree with the one-sidedness of your rhetoric, you are right to say that slander and calumny against a bishop of the Church (or against a synod of bishops) is a sin. I just want to be fair and balanced in calling it out in both directions.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Hermogenes on July 19, 2012, 07:30:20 AM
^ I think it may be instructive for me to share where I'm coming from on this so you and everyone else here can understand why I bristle at such conduct as you have shown, Zenovia. On the one hand, I have a lot of love and respect for His Beatitude, the former Metropolitan Jonah, and I will fight just as hard as you to defend him against false witness. On the other hand, I have just as much love and respect for my own diocesan bishop, Archbishop Benjamin of San Francisco, and for the Synod on which he sits. As such, I will fight with equal diligence to protect his good name against false witness.

I don't know all the details of what's going on in Syosset between Metropolitan Jonah and the rest of the Synod. I'm not privileged to know. I don't need to know. I don't want to know. I simply don't see how knowledge of every lurid detail is good for my salvation, so I'm not even going to ask. In the end, I choose to trust that God will guide all parties involved and that the truth will win out and make itself heard as much as we the faithful can bear it. In the mean time, I see it as my duty to combat the rumor mongering, gossip, undue speculation, slander and libel flying around against both sides of this mess. Though I disagree with the one-sidedness of your rhetoric, you are right to say that slander and calumny against a bishop of the Church (or against a synod of bishops) is a sin. I just want to be fair and balanced in calling it out in both directions.

Thanks for this. Like you, I have deep trust in our archpastor, HG Michael, of New York. I believe what he says and trust his judgment. I've never had any reason before now to doubt his words, not do I doubt him now. The other hierarchs are also men of deep integrity. They wouldn't take this step for any reason but the good of the church as it has been revealed to them.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: katherineofdixie on July 19, 2012, 09:32:42 AM
To those who are calling for "openness", it is not always appropriate, necessary or helpful to know all the details of what might be called a personnel matter. And if it involves confidential medical or personal information, or an alleged crime which is still being investigated or litigated, it may be actually illegal to share such information or details.

I have personally witnessed a Bishop being lambasted (in terms that I would not use to my worst enemy) for not sharing details about a priest - where he literally could not, morally or legally, give any information.

Conspiracy theories and rumors may be entertaining, but what real purpose do they serve and what do they have to do with the Faith?

Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: FatherGiryus on July 19, 2012, 10:39:12 AM
Katherine, I think you hit the nail on the head.

The OCA and its members have been pummelled with lawsuits and threats of lawsuits from within its own ranks: Bob Kondratick, Bp. Nikolai Soraich, Fr. Ray Velencia, etc.  These are just the cases initiated by clergy.

I would expect the Holy Synod to be a bit hesitant about how to deal with His Eminence's situation, even if one could guarantee that there was 0% possibility that he would sue for 'wrongful termination.'  Given the depravity of some of the internet dialog surrounding this, I'm sure many of the bishops deliberated with great seriousness over the right course of action.

We are dealing with a number of overlapping problems: medical privacy, the expectation of information regarding the fitness of clergy, employment laws, victim's rights, canonical interpretations, the expectation of Christian mercy...

I have been gravely disappointed with how dreadfully so many critics have behaved, especially people that I used to respect.  We must all realize that we cannot give license to our emotions no matter how horrid something appears to be.  There are now a great many vociferous supporters of His Beatitude that are eating crow or, more precisely, trying to wriggle out from under their tomes of indignation.

Very sad.


To those who are calling for "openness", it is not always appropriate, necessary or helpful to know all the details of what might be called a personnel matter. And if it involves confidential medical or personal information, or an alleged crime which is still being investigated or litigated, it may be actually illegal to share such information or details.

I have personally witnessed a Bishop being lambasted (in terms that I would not use to my worst enemy) for not sharing details about a priest - where he literally could not, morally or legally, give any information.

Conspiracy theories and rumors may be entertaining, but what real purpose do they serve and what do they have to do with the Faith?


Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Basil 320 on July 19, 2012, 01:08:05 PM
In light of this discussion, I do feel it is important to note that the statement the Holy Synod issued was necessary.  My reaction to His Eminence's resignation was shock because there was nothing in the public domain that I was aware of that could justify such action.  In the absence of canonical infractions, I was just aghast that a Synod would take such action just because they disagreed with "the first among them."  In fact, I was concerned that possibly the political issues that had been "out there" so to speak may have had merit. But after the statement was issued, the nature of the problems the Synod was having to face justified the manner in which the Synod dealt with them. I thought the statement was well worded too.  More explicit details are not necessary.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on July 19, 2012, 03:03:42 PM
I am not convinced.

The three page letter released by the OCA Synod was not done in charity.
There was no excuse for all the dirt they released without any proof.
The same type of character assassination was done on St. Nectarios of Aegina.
Do not forget the grief which our Saint John of San Francisco endured too.

I have lost respect for the OCA Synod.

If indeed an OCA priest had raped a girl, why was he not publicly defrocked?
Why this inactivity on the part of the OCA Synod.

Did not Archbishop Joseph of the Antiochians immediately defrock the Northern California man?
Was not this man's name published in the newspapers?

Why is the OCA Synod withholding the name of this so-called OCA priest if he is a danger to society?

I do not buy any details in that letter.

Again, LESS IS BEST. A one sentence statement would have sufficed.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: podkarpatska on July 19, 2012, 03:08:49 PM
It seems to me that far too many Orthodox lay persons cry of 'openness' and 'transparency' etc... and belittle our Bishops and priests with charges of 'liberalism', 'conspiracies', 'cover-ups' and so on. Many here are professed followers of the Fathers and of the Patristic Era. St. Ignatius of Antioch, one of the most important of our ante-Nicean Fathers said it best, and I would urge those who are 'throwing their Synod under the bus' to heed his words and consider restraining their passions based on what is now known. St. Ignatius advised the Christians of Smryma"Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the catholic church. (i.e. the Apostolic or what we now know as the Orthodox Church._It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid. "

Of course the Saintly Father did not mean that any and all actions of a bishop or bishops are always pleasing to God. We know that is not true as the history of Church is full of schisms and false teachers from her earliest days. HOWEVER, absent proof of heresy, we are charged with obedience and loyalty to our hierarchs.

Four centuries or so ago, a group of Orthodox Christians rejected changes made by their Patriarch, Nikon of Moscow and self-determined that no more 'O'rthodox bishops or priests existed. That small group of priestless Old-Believers still exists. Few, if any of us, would argue that they chose the proper path.  I would suggest to those so quick to condemn the Synod of the OCA not to indulge in self-determination as did the priestless ones, but to pray and be patient.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on July 19, 2012, 03:11:19 PM
A one sentence press release would have sufficed, such as this:

[indent]Metropolitan Jonah has been placed on Administrative Leave pending an investigation by Police and the OCA Synod for allegedly withholding information regarding the alleged rape committed by a priest. [/indent]

However, I really doubt that this so-called rapist priest was even with the OCA at all.
If he were, certainly the OCA synod would have immediately defrocked him.
Certainly, they would have published his name so that women could avoid him.

In this country, persons such as Metropolitan Jonah are assumed to be innocent until proven guilty.
What ever has happened to charity? Lord have mercy.


Lord have mercy.
Lord have mercy.
Lord have mercy.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: katherineofdixie on July 19, 2012, 03:23:33 PM
A one sentence press release would have sufficed, such as this:

[indent]Metropolitan Jonah has been placed on Administrative Leave pending an investigation by Police and the OCA Synod for allegedly withholding information regarding the alleged rape committed by a priest. [/indent]

However, I really doubt that this so-called rapist priest was even with the OCA at all.
If he were, certainly the OCA synod would have immediately defrocked him.
Certainly, they would have published his name so that women could avoid him.

In this country, persons such as Metropolitan Jonah are assumed to be innocent until proven guilty.
What ever has happened to charity? Lord have mercy.


Lord have mercy.
Lord have mercy.
Lord have mercy.

Yes, indeed. What happened to charity?

Remember that the Holy Synod did release a terse statement. Then the you-know-what hit the fan all over the Internet.
Which necessitated a longer explanation. Nothing satisfies conspiracy theorists.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PrincessMommy on July 19, 2012, 03:29:24 PM
A one sentence press release would have sufficed, such as this:

[indent]Metropolitan Jonah has been placed on Administrative Leave pending an investigation by Police and the OCA Synod for allegedly withholding information regarding the alleged rape committed by a priest. [/indent]

However, I really doubt that this so-called rapist priest was even with the OCA at all.
If he were, certainly the OCA synod would have immediately defrocked him.
Certainly, they would have published his name so that women could avoid him.

In this country, persons such as Metropolitan Jonah are assumed to be innocent until proven guilty.
What ever has happened to charity? Lord have mercy.


Lord have mercy.
Lord have mercy.
Lord have mercy.

The Synod cannot defrock him if they were not made aware of the problem until just now.  I think that's part of their issue with Met. JONAH.  He withheld very important information from the Synod until this most recent meeting in early July. 

Also, don't say he raped a girl.  I have heard it was an adult female, but it was is hearsay so that it all I care to disclose on a public forum. 
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Tikhon29605 on July 19, 2012, 03:30:36 PM
It seems to me that far too many Orthodox lay persons cry of 'openness' and 'transparency' etc... and belittle our Bishops and priests with charges of 'liberalism', 'conspiracies', 'cover-ups' and so on. Many here are professed followers of the Fathers and of the Patristic Era. St. Ignatius of Antioch, one of the most important of our ante-Nicean Fathers said it best, and I would urge those who are 'throwing their Synod under the bus' to heed his words and consider restraining their passions based on what is now known. St. Ignatius advised the Christians of Smryma"Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the catholic church. (i.e. the Apostolic or what we now know as the Orthodox Church._It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid. "

Of course the Saintly Father did not mean that any and all actions of a bishop or bishops are always pleasing to God. We know that is not true as the history of Church is full of schisms and false teachers from her earliest days. HOWEVER, absent proof of heresy, we are charged with obedience and loyalty to our hierarchs.

Four centuries or so ago, a group of Orthodox Christians rejected changes made by their Patriarch, Nikon of Moscow and self-determined that no more 'O'rthodox bishops or priests existed. That small group of priestless Old-Believers still exists. Few, if any of us, would argue that they chose the proper path.  I would suggest to those so quick to condemn the Synod of the OCA not to indulge in self-determination as did the priestless ones, but to pray and be patient.



Very well stated.  A real voice of reason and common sense amongst all the Chicken Littles who are proclaiming that the Orthodox sky is falling.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Gorazd on July 19, 2012, 03:50:43 PM
Four centuries or so ago, a group of Orthodox Christians rejected changes made by their Patriarch, Nikon of Moscow and self-determined that no more 'O'rthodox bishops or priests existed. That small group of priestless Old-Believers still exists.

True. But nonetheless, I would say the reforms of Pat. Nikon were unnecessary and only caused confusion amongst the believers. The way they were forced on the people also wasn't very Orthodox.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: jah777 on July 19, 2012, 03:59:35 PM
This is a letter from the godmother of the alleged rape victim, concerning this
case:

Quote
Letter from the Godmother

http://www.monomakhos.com/another-hole-in-the-official-story/

On behalf of many parishioners both at St. Nicholas Cathedral and elsewhere in
the OCA, who have contacted me, we would like to express our shock and concern
about the letter of the Synod of Bishops regarding the resignation of
Metropolitan Jonah. We know him and seriously question the contents of this
letter. It seems to be a deliberate attempt to destroy a hierarch by creating a
public scandal on the basis of procedural issues related to many untruths which
cry out to be countered with the truth. We would like to set the record
straight.

The case of the hieromonk whose crime the Metropolitan is accused of covering
up, is well known to me.

1. Metropolitan Jonah did not know about this crime until mid-May 2012.

The victim of the crime is a God-daughter of mine who lives in another part of
the country. No one here knew what had happened to her in 2010 until she
contacted me in mid-May of 2012. At that time she and her husband had contacted
the police who said that nothing could be done without more evidence. They then
decided to turn to the church in order to initiate an ecclesiastical court to
defrock him. She wrote a testimony of her story later in May and sent it to a
ROCOR priest and to me, asking that I pass it on to Metropolitan Jonah, which I
did. She included a confidentiality statement that it pass no further.
Metropolitan Jonah had already in 2010 issued a letter forbidding this hieromonk
to serve in any OCA church. Since he was still in a Greek jurisdiction, nothing
more could be done by the OCA except to offer pastoral help to her and her
husband, which the Metropolitan did by phone.

2. This hieromonk was never received into the OCA so it was not possible for the
OCA to defrock him.

Metropolitan Jonah issued a "no blessing to serve" in any OCA church already in
2010 in response to reports of unpriestly behavior. I myself had made one of
these reports on the basis of alcohol abuse and an attempted assault of a
neighbor on property owned by my family which occurred in late May 2010. Based
on the information known at that time, this was the most that could be done.
This hieromonk then left the area.

Nothing more was known about him until he returned to the area early in 2012,
having sought from ROCOR a "blessing to serve" in its monastery outside of
Washington. Now, with the revelation of his crime in May 2012, ROCOR has also
rescinded its "blessing to serve". Shortly after Pascha, he returned to the
Church of Greece and the jurisdiction to which he has always belonged.

3. My testimony to ROCOR for it's investigation was ignored in the OCA.

I was recently requested to send a copy of the testimony that ROCOR asked me to
write for it's investigation of this hieromonk who had managed to receive a
"blessing to serve" within it's jurisdiction earlier this year before anything
was known to them of his criminal activity. With the revelation of his crime in
May 2012, that blessing has been rescinded and a case is being prepared for
presentation to the Greek jurisdiction and the heads of all Orthodox
jurisdictions. However, the description of this case cited in the letter of the
Synod of Bishops is completely at odds with the evidence presented in my
testimony and can be corroborated by others in Washington.

All of this and other accusations are simply unfounded. Was this letter
published to counter the outpouring of support for Metropolitan Jonah?

We prayerfully persevere in our belief that the Providence of God will bring
good out of this evil.


Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: primuspilus on July 19, 2012, 04:08:25 PM
^ pretty damning if 100% true.

PP
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 19, 2012, 04:14:07 PM
^ pretty damning if 100% true.

PP
Posted as it was on monomakhos.com, though, I give the letter about as much credence as I give anything else posted on that blog: none.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PrincessMommy on July 19, 2012, 04:14:48 PM
Interesting letter and quite disconcerting.  But making it available to a blog owner who is known to engage in conspiracy theories only leads me to wonder.... "who really wrote the letter?"  If George M. can say that the Synod fabricated information...can we not turn question back to him?

At this point I'd rather be slightly skeptical of all sides than to just jump into one boat or the other.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 19, 2012, 04:16:03 PM
A one sentence press release would have sufficed, such as this:

[indent]Metropolitan Jonah has been placed on Administrative Leave pending an investigation by Police and the OCA Synod for allegedly withholding information regarding the alleged rape committed by a priest. [/indent]

However, I really doubt that this so-called rapist priest was even with the OCA at all.
If he were, certainly the OCA synod would have immediately defrocked him.
Certainly, they would have published his name so that women could avoid him.

In this country, persons such as Metropolitan Jonah are assumed to be innocent until proven guilty.
What ever has happened to charity? Lord have mercy.
Yes, Maria, whatever happened to charity? I see you're not showing any.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: primuspilus on July 19, 2012, 04:20:16 PM
As I said, pretty damning IF its true. However with Monomakhos, it seemed that the Holy Synod was guilty of <insert here> before anything was known.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Hermogenes on July 19, 2012, 04:52:55 PM
I am not convinced.

The three page letter released by the OCA Synod was not done in charity.
There was no excuse for all the dirt they released without any proof.
The same type of character assassination was done on St. Nectarios of Aegina.
Do not forget the grief which our Saint John of San Francisco endured too.

I have lost respect for the OCA Synod.

If indeed an OCA priest had raped a girl, why was he not publicly defrocked?
Why this inactivity on the part of the OCA Synod.

Did not Archbishop Joseph of the Antiochians immediately defrock the Northern California man?
Was not this man's name published in the newspapers?

Why is the OCA Synod withholding the name of this so-called OCA priest if he is a danger to society?

I do not buy any details in that letter.

Again, LESS IS BEST. A one sentence statement would have sufficed.

The priest was most definitely on the OCA roster until he was shopped to another jurisdiction. Your paranoia aside, the difference between what ought to have happened and what happened instead seem to be exactly what the synod'setter deals with.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on July 19, 2012, 05:02:35 PM
A one sentence press release would have sufficed, such as this:

[indent]Metropolitan Jonah has been placed on Administrative Leave pending an investigation by Police and the OCA Synod for allegedly withholding information regarding the alleged rape committed by a priest. [/indent]

However, I really doubt that this so-called rapist priest was even with the OCA at all.
If he were, certainly the OCA synod would have immediately defrocked him.
Certainly, they would have published his name so that women could avoid him.

In this country, persons such as Metropolitan Jonah are assumed to be innocent until proven guilty.
What ever has happened to charity? Lord have mercy.
Yes, Maria, whatever happened to charity? I see you're not showing any.

How so?

I am truthfully saying that LESS is BEST.
Was that three page letter on July 16, 2012 posted by the OCA Synod dripping with charity? No.
Did they publish the truth in love? No, because their charges against Met. Jonah were unsubstantiated and vague.

Again, the so-called OCA priest should have been named in that letter and that priest should have been placed immediately on administrative leave to protect women and girls. Why wasn't this done?

The OCA Synod is seriously derelict by not naming this so-called OCA priest and removing him from public service.

St. Nectarios was treated similarly when he was serving in Alexandria as a Bishop.
He was also charged with vague sexual accusations which were never proven.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on July 19, 2012, 05:06:26 PM
I am not convinced.

The three page letter released by the OCA Synod was not done in charity.
There was no excuse for all the dirt they released without any proof.
The same type of character assassination was done on St. Nectarios of Aegina.
Do not forget the grief which our Saint John of San Francisco endured too.

I have lost respect for the OCA Synod.

If indeed an OCA priest had raped a girl, why was he not publicly defrocked?
Why this inactivity on the part of the OCA Synod.

Did not Archbishop Joseph of the Antiochians immediately defrock the Northern California man?
Was not this man's name published in the newspapers?

Why is the OCA Synod withholding the name of this so-called OCA priest if he is a danger to society?

I do not buy any details in that letter.

Again, LESS IS BEST. A one sentence statement would have sufficed.

The priest was most definitely on the OCA roster until he was shopped to another jurisdiction. Your paranoia aside, the difference between what ought to have happened and what happened instead seem to be exactly what the synod'setter deals with.

Smoke.

Either you know this priest or you blindly believe the OCA Synod letter.

Why has not the OCA released his name? He remains a threat to women and children.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 19, 2012, 05:06:54 PM
A one sentence press release would have sufficed, such as this:

[indent]Metropolitan Jonah has been placed on Administrative Leave pending an investigation by Police and the OCA Synod for allegedly withholding information regarding the alleged rape committed by a priest. [/indent]

However, I really doubt that this so-called rapist priest was even with the OCA at all.
If he were, certainly the OCA synod would have immediately defrocked him.
Certainly, they would have published his name so that women could avoid him.

In this country, persons such as Metropolitan Jonah are assumed to be innocent until proven guilty.
What ever has happened to charity? Lord have mercy.
Yes, Maria, whatever happened to charity? I see you're not showing any.

How so?

I am truthfully saying that LESS is BEST.
Was that three page letter on July 16, 2012 posted by the OCA Synod dripping with charity? No.
Did they publish the truth in love? No, because their charges against Met. Jonah were unsubstantiated and vague.

Again, the so-called OCA priest should have been named in that letter and that priest should have been placed immediately on administrative leave to protect women and girls. Why wasn't this done?

The OCA Synod is seriously derelict by not naming this so-called OCA priest and removing him from public service.

St. Nectarios was treated similarly when he was serving in Alexandria as a Bishop.
He was also charged with vague sexual accusations which were never proven.
Maria, do you know enough about what the Synod is dealing with, what they've done, and what they've not done, to be able to make such statements? I don't think so. If not, how are not making accusations against the Holy Synod that you cannot substantiate? How are you not slandering the Holy Synod of the OCA?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on July 19, 2012, 05:12:32 PM
A one sentence press release would have sufficed, such as this:

[indent]Metropolitan Jonah has been placed on Administrative Leave pending an investigation by Police and the OCA Synod for allegedly withholding information regarding the alleged rape committed by a priest. [/indent]

However, I really doubt that this so-called rapist priest was even with the OCA at all.
If he were, certainly the OCA synod would have immediately defrocked him.
Certainly, they would have published his name so that women could avoid him.

In this country, persons such as Metropolitan Jonah are assumed to be innocent until proven guilty.
What ever has happened to charity? Lord have mercy.


Lord have mercy.
Lord have mercy.
Lord have mercy.

The Synod cannot defrock him if they were not made aware of the problem until just now.  I think that's part of their issue with Met. JONAH.  He withheld very important information from the Synod until this most recent meeting in early July. 

Also, don't say he raped a girl.  I have heard it was an adult female, but it was is hearsay so that it all I care to disclose on a public forum. 

I never used the word "girl" or implied that the priest raped a girl.
I said:
Quote
Certainly, they would have published his name so that women could avoid him.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on July 19, 2012, 05:17:18 PM
A one sentence press release would have sufficed, such as this:

[indent]Metropolitan Jonah has been placed on Administrative Leave pending an investigation by Police and the OCA Synod for allegedly withholding information regarding the alleged rape committed by a priest. [/indent]

However, I really doubt that this so-called rapist priest was even with the OCA at all.
If he were, certainly the OCA synod would have immediately defrocked him.
Certainly, they would have published his name so that women could avoid him.

In this country, persons such as Metropolitan Jonah are assumed to be innocent until proven guilty.
What ever has happened to charity? Lord have mercy.
Yes, Maria, whatever happened to charity? I see you're not showing any.

How so?

I am truthfully saying that LESS is BEST.
Was that three page letter on July 16, 2012 posted by the OCA Synod dripping with charity? No.
Did they publish the truth in love? No, because their charges against Met. Jonah were unsubstantiated and vague.

Again, the so-called OCA priest should have been named in that letter and that priest should have been placed immediately on administrative leave to protect women and girls. Why wasn't this done?

The OCA Synod is seriously derelict by not naming this so-called OCA priest and removing him from public service.

St. Nectarios was treated similarly when he was serving in Alexandria as a Bishop.
He was also charged with vague sexual accusations which were never proven.
Maria, do you know enough about what the Synod is dealing with, what they've done, and what they've not done, to be able to make such statements? I don't think so. If not, how are not making accusations against the Holy Synod that you cannot substantiate? How are you not slandering the Holy Synod of the OCA?

Just re-read that letter.
Then ask yourself if that three page letter really needed to be published?
Did it settle anything? No.
Did it raise vague charges against Met. Jonah? Yes, and there is the lack of charity. In addition, that very letter raised serious questions like why the name of the so-called OCA Priest was not released by the OCA Synod when he obviously was considered to be a threat to women by his prior arrest for violence.

I am wondering if there is a cult mentality associated with the current OCA synod.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on July 19, 2012, 05:21:17 PM
I do not believe in the infallibility of the OCA Synod.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 19, 2012, 05:23:48 PM
A one sentence press release would have sufficed, such as this:

[indent]Metropolitan Jonah has been placed on Administrative Leave pending an investigation by Police and the OCA Synod for allegedly withholding information regarding the alleged rape committed by a priest. [/indent]

However, I really doubt that this so-called rapist priest was even with the OCA at all.
If he were, certainly the OCA synod would have immediately defrocked him.
Certainly, they would have published his name so that women could avoid him.

In this country, persons such as Metropolitan Jonah are assumed to be innocent until proven guilty.
What ever has happened to charity? Lord have mercy.
Yes, Maria, whatever happened to charity? I see you're not showing any.

How so?

I am truthfully saying that LESS is BEST.
Was that three page letter on July 16, 2012 posted by the OCA Synod dripping with charity? No.
Did they publish the truth in love? No, because their charges against Met. Jonah were unsubstantiated and vague.

Again, the so-called OCA priest should have been named in that letter and that priest should have been placed immediately on administrative leave to protect women and girls. Why wasn't this done?

The OCA Synod is seriously derelict by not naming this so-called OCA priest and removing him from public service.

St. Nectarios was treated similarly when he was serving in Alexandria as a Bishop.
He was also charged with vague sexual accusations which were never proven.
Maria, do you know enough about what the Synod is dealing with, what they've done, and what they've not done, to be able to make such statements? I don't think so. If not, how are not making accusations against the Holy Synod that you cannot substantiate? How are you not slandering the Holy Synod of the OCA?

Just re-read that letter.
Then ask yourself if that three page letter really needed to be published?
Did it settle anything? No.
Did it raise vague charges against Met. Jonah? Yes, and there is the lack of charity. In addition, that very letter raised serious questions like why the name of the so-called OCA Priest was not released by the OCA Synod when he obviously was considered to be a threat to women by his prior arrest for violence.

I am wondering if there is a cult mentality associated with the current OCA synod.
Again, you do not know what is going on inside the Synod, so the best you can do right now is shut up, because all you're doing right now is setting yourself up to be a judge of matters you know nothing about.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 19, 2012, 05:25:33 PM
I do not believe in the infallibility of the OCA Synod.
No one here does, thus making this statement a straw man argument. Some here do wish to defend the Synod against slander just as much as they wish to defend Metropolitan Jonah against slander, though.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on July 19, 2012, 05:31:56 PM
A one sentence press release would have sufficed, such as this:

[indent]Metropolitan Jonah has been placed on Administrative Leave pending an investigation by Police and the OCA Synod for allegedly withholding information regarding the alleged rape committed by a priest. [/indent]

However, I really doubt that this so-called rapist priest was even with the OCA at all.
If he were, certainly the OCA synod would have immediately defrocked him.
Certainly, they would have published his name so that women could avoid him.

In this country, persons such as Metropolitan Jonah are assumed to be innocent until proven guilty.
What ever has happened to charity? Lord have mercy.
Yes, Maria, whatever happened to charity? I see you're not showing any.

How so?

I am truthfully saying that LESS is BEST.
Was that three page letter on July 16, 2012 posted by the OCA Synod dripping with charity? No.
Did they publish the truth in love? No, because their charges against Met. Jonah were unsubstantiated and vague.

Again, the so-called OCA priest should have been named in that letter and that priest should have been placed immediately on administrative leave to protect women and girls. Why wasn't this done?

The OCA Synod is seriously derelict by not naming this so-called OCA priest and removing him from public service.

St. Nectarios was treated similarly when he was serving in Alexandria as a Bishop.
He was also charged with vague sexual accusations which were never proven.
Maria, do you know enough about what the Synod is dealing with, what they've done, and what they've not done, to be able to make such statements? I don't think so. If not, how are not making accusations against the Holy Synod that you cannot substantiate? How are you not slandering the Holy Synod of the OCA?

Just re-read that letter.
Then ask yourself if that three page letter really needed to be published?
Did it settle anything? No.
Did it raise vague charges against Met. Jonah? Yes, and there is the lack of charity. In addition, that very letter raised serious questions like why the name of the so-called OCA Priest was not released by the OCA Synod when he obviously was considered to be a threat to women by his prior arrest for violence.

I am wondering if there is a cult mentality associated with the current OCA synod.
Again, you do not know what is going on inside the Synod, so the best you can do right now is shut up, because all you're doing right now is setting yourself up to be a judge of matters you know nothing about.

You did not answer my questions.

Why has the name of this priest not been released?
It is strange that the very outspoken Synod has its tongue tied.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 19, 2012, 05:44:01 PM
A one sentence press release would have sufficed, such as this:

[indent]Metropolitan Jonah has been placed on Administrative Leave pending an investigation by Police and the OCA Synod for allegedly withholding information regarding the alleged rape committed by a priest. [/indent]

However, I really doubt that this so-called rapist priest was even with the OCA at all.
If he were, certainly the OCA synod would have immediately defrocked him.
Certainly, they would have published his name so that women could avoid him.

In this country, persons such as Metropolitan Jonah are assumed to be innocent until proven guilty.
What ever has happened to charity? Lord have mercy.
Yes, Maria, whatever happened to charity? I see you're not showing any.

How so?

I am truthfully saying that LESS is BEST.
Was that three page letter on July 16, 2012 posted by the OCA Synod dripping with charity? No.
Did they publish the truth in love? No, because their charges against Met. Jonah were unsubstantiated and vague.

Again, the so-called OCA priest should have been named in that letter and that priest should have been placed immediately on administrative leave to protect women and girls. Why wasn't this done?

The OCA Synod is seriously derelict by not naming this so-called OCA priest and removing him from public service.

St. Nectarios was treated similarly when he was serving in Alexandria as a Bishop.
He was also charged with vague sexual accusations which were never proven.
Maria, do you know enough about what the Synod is dealing with, what they've done, and what they've not done, to be able to make such statements? I don't think so. If not, how are not making accusations against the Holy Synod that you cannot substantiate? How are you not slandering the Holy Synod of the OCA?

Just re-read that letter.
Then ask yourself if that three page letter really needed to be published?
Did it settle anything? No.
Did it raise vague charges against Met. Jonah? Yes, and there is the lack of charity. In addition, that very letter raised serious questions like why the name of the so-called OCA Priest was not released by the OCA Synod when he obviously was considered to be a threat to women by his prior arrest for violence.

I am wondering if there is a cult mentality associated with the current OCA synod.
Again, you do not know what is going on inside the Synod, so the best you can do right now is shut up, because all you're doing right now is setting yourself up to be a judge of matters you know nothing about.

You did not answer my questions.
I'm not going to.

Why has the name of this priest not been released?
Why do you need to know?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PrincessMommy on July 19, 2012, 06:02:16 PM
I am not convinced.

The three page letter released by the OCA Synod was not done in charity.
There was no excuse for all the dirt they released without any proof.
The same type of character assassination was done on St. Nectarios of Aegina.
Do not forget the grief which our Saint John of San Francisco endured too.

I have lost respect for the OCA Synod.

If indeed an OCA priest had raped a girl, why was he not publicly defrocked?
Why this inactivity on the part of the OCA Synod.

Did not Archbishop Joseph of the Antiochians immediately defrock the Northern California man?
Was not this man's name published in the newspapers?

Why is the OCA Synod withholding the name of this so-called OCA priest if he is a danger to society?

I do not buy any details in that letter.

Again, LESS IS BEST. A one sentence statement would have sufficed.



I never used the word "girl" or implied that the priest raped a girl.
I said:
Quote
Certainly, they would have published his name so that women could avoid him.


oh, okay... whatever.

Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: pensateomnia on July 19, 2012, 06:50:35 PM
I am not convinced.

The three page letter released by the OCA Synod was not done in charity.
There was no excuse for all the dirt they released without any proof.
The same type of character assassination was done on St. Nectarios of Aegina.
Do not forget the grief which our Saint John of San Francisco endured too.

I have lost respect for the OCA Synod.

If indeed an OCA priest had raped a girl, why was he not publicly defrocked?
Why this inactivity on the part of the OCA Synod.

Did not Archbishop Joseph of the Antiochians immediately defrock the Northern California man?
Was not this man's name published in the newspapers?

Why is the OCA Synod withholding the name of this so-called OCA priest if he is a danger to society?

I do not buy any details in that letter.

Again, LESS IS BEST. A one sentence statement would have sufficed.

The priest was most definitely on the OCA roster until he was shopped to another jurisdiction. Your paranoia aside, the difference between what ought to have happened and what happened instead seem to be exactly what the synod'setter deals with.

Smoke.

Either you know this priest or you blindly believe the OCA Synod letter.

Why has not the OCA released his name? He remains a threat to women and children.


As far as I know, the priest was never officially accepted into the OCA, which is actually part of the problem. Met Jonah invited him to come from Greece (the priest is a Ukrainian) along with some nuns as part of the monastery Met Jonah wanted to establish in his new monastic/cathedral/church headquarters. Since the Synod didn't like that idea (such mixed setups are actually uncanonical and foolish to boot), a period of chaos ensued. The nuns continue to protect the priest in question, sending him back to their network in Greece. He's a real piece of work.

P.S. But there's nothing normal or official about this situation. It's a mess. The man was invited to be a "religious worker" in the legal sense, receiving housing and other compensation, etc.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: orthonorm on July 19, 2012, 07:13:37 PM
I am not convinced.

The three page letter released by the OCA Synod was not done in charity.
There was no excuse for all the dirt they released without any proof.
The same type of character assassination was done on St. Nectarios of Aegina.
Do not forget the grief which our Saint John of San Francisco endured too.

I have lost respect for the OCA Synod.

If indeed an OCA priest had raped a girl, why was he not publicly defrocked?
Why this inactivity on the part of the OCA Synod.

Did not Archbishop Joseph of the Antiochians immediately defrock the Northern California man?
Was not this man's name published in the newspapers?

Why is the OCA Synod withholding the name of this so-called OCA priest if he is a danger to society?

I do not buy any details in that letter.

Again, LESS IS BEST. A one sentence statement would have sufficed.



I never used the word "girl" or implied that the priest raped a girl.
I said:
Quote
Certainly, they would have published his name so that women could avoid him.


oh, okay... whatever.



Let me help you:

Why has not the OCA released his name? He remains a threat to women and children.

Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: iustinos on July 19, 2012, 07:31:22 PM
All of the controversy about whether this **** was ever in the OCA confuses me. If he was--as one commenter states--wouldn't he appear in one of the OCA official publications? Wouldn't he have appeared at some point on the clergy directory on the OCA website?
Has the Synod contacted his new bishop to let him know what they allege Met. Jonah failed to tell him?

It's very odd.



Name removed to protect the accused until permission has been granted for his name to be released to the public  -PtA
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: pensateomnia on July 19, 2012, 07:59:47 PM
All of the controversy about whether this **** was ever in the OCA confuses me. If he was--as one commenter states--wouldn't he appear in one of the OCA official publications? Wouldn't he have appeared at some point on the clergy directory on the OCA website?
Has the Synod contacted his new bishop to let him know what they allege Met. Jonah failed to tell him?

It's very odd.



Name removed to protect the accused until permission has been granted for his name to be released to the public  -PtA

It's only odd because everything about this priest is odd and the way the Metropolitan brought him over was odd as well. The absolute fact is, regardless of whether or not the Metropolitan had this unnamed priest entered in the OCA clergy directory (he may or may not have; I don't know), the Metropolitan invited this unnamed priest to come, set him up in DC, and, at least for time, had him performing priestly duties (e.g catechizing lay people, leading worship, performing sacraments, etc).



Name of priest removed to protect the accused until permission has been granted for his name to be released to the public  -PtA
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: podkarpatska on July 19, 2012, 10:00:53 PM
A one sentence press release would have sufficed, such as this:

[indent]Metropolitan Jonah has been placed on Administrative Leave pending an investigation by Police and the OCA Synod for allegedly withholding information regarding the alleged rape committed by a priest. [/indent]

However, I really doubt that this so-called rapist priest was even with the OCA at all.
If he were, certainly the OCA synod would have immediately defrocked him.
Certainly, they would have published his name so that women could avoid him.

In this country, persons such as Metropolitan Jonah are assumed to be innocent until proven guilty.
What ever has happened to charity? Lord have mercy.
Yes, Maria, whatever happened to charity? I see you're not showing any.

How so?

I am truthfully saying that LESS is BEST.
Was that three page letter on July 16, 2012 posted by the OCA Synod dripping with charity? No.
Did they publish the truth in love? No, because their charges against Met. Jonah were unsubstantiated and vague.

Again, the so-called OCA priest should have been named in that letter and that priest should have been placed immediately on administrative leave to protect women and girls. Why wasn't this done?

The OCA Synod is seriously derelict by not naming this so-called OCA priest and removing him from public service.

St. Nectarios was treated similarly when he was serving in Alexandria as a Bishop.
He was also charged with vague sexual accusations which were never proven.
Maria, do you know enough about what the Synod is dealing with, what they've done, and what they've not done, to be able to make such statements? I don't think so. If not, how are not making accusations against the Holy Synod that you cannot substantiate? How are you not slandering the Holy Synod of the OCA?

Just re-read that letter.
Then ask yourself if that three page letter really needed to be published?
Did it settle anything? No.
Did it raise vague charges against Met. Jonah? Yes, and there is the lack of charity. In addition, that very letter raised serious questions like why the name of the so-called OCA Priest was not released by the OCA Synod when he obviously was considered to be a threat to women by his prior arrest for violence.

I am wondering if there is a cult mentality associated with the current OCA synod.
Again, you do not know what is going on inside the Synod, so the best you can do right now is shut up, because all you're doing right now is setting yourself up to be a judge of matters you know nothing about.

You did not answer my questions.
I'm not going to.

Why has the name of this priest not been released?
Why do you need to know?

Enough of this nonsense already. No one is saying that anyone is 'infallible' or that this matter might have been handled in a different matter. However, given the crap that has been thrown against the wall by certain parties online, it is clear to me that the Synod had to take some action to let the faithful know something was amiss.

The names of victims and the alleged perpetrator were not released for common sense reasons and because I am certain that the OCA's quite competent legal counsel advised the Synod members not to do so for obvious reasons in anticipation of a multitude of potential litigants. That is certainly the type of advice that I or any other competent attorney would have given a client under similar circumstances involving serious personal or management indiscretion allegations. The same would occur in any school district or hospital or wherever if legal charges were either not let brought or if the proof necessary to sustain criminal charges were not there but the lower burdens of proof needed for civil liability were present. For the Synod to unanimously request the resignation of the Metropolitan tells me at least, that more than just smoke and mirrors were involved. There has to be some substance to what is behind the whole mess. If not, you would have to believe that each of the nine Bishops are corrupt and venial. That is simply absurd and sinful to hold such a belief.

Give it a rest and let things play out. But comparing Metropolitan Jonah with the trials and tribulations of Saints at this point in the discussion is just ridiculous.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Paisius on July 19, 2012, 10:06:32 PM
All of the controversy about whether this **** was ever in the OCA confuses me. If he was--as one commenter states--wouldn't he appear in one of the OCA official publications? Wouldn't he have appeared at some point on the clergy directory on the OCA website?
Has the Synod contacted his new bishop to let him know what they allege Met. Jonah failed to tell him?

It's very odd.



Name removed to protect the accused until permission has been granted for his name to be released to the public  -PtA

It's only odd because everything about this priest is odd and the way the Metropolitan brought him over was odd as well. The absolute fact is, regardless of whether or not the Metropolitan had this unnamed priest entered in the OCA clergy directory (he may or may not have; I don't know), the Metropolitan invited this unnamed priest to come, set him up in DC, and, at least for time, had him performing priestly duties (e.g catechizing lay people, leading worship, performing sacraments, etc).



Name of priest removed to protect the accused until permission has been granted for his name to be released to the public  -PtA


All several years before finding out about the rape allegations and at least two years after withdrawing his blessing to serve. That is if you believe the letter from the godmother. I don't know who's right or who's wrong; but I do know there are always more than one side to a story. I also know that until now we've only heard one version of the events. It will be interesting to see how all this plays out.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Bigsinner on July 19, 2012, 11:50:31 PM
Give it a rest and let things play out. But comparing Metropolitan Jonah with the trials and tribulations of Saints at this point in the discussion is just ridiculous.

I agree.  We shouldn't be jumping to any conclusions as we do not have half, let alone all, the facts.  Until such time, I would rather assume the best, avoid labeling anyone a saint, victim, or villain, and pray for all parties involved.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Hermogenes on July 20, 2012, 08:31:29 AM
A one sentence press release would have sufficed, such as this:

[indent]Metropolitan Jonah has been placed on Administrative Leave pending an investigation by Police and the OCA Synod for allegedly withholding information regarding the alleged rape committed by a priest. [/indent]

However, I really doubt that this so-called rapist priest was even with the OCA at all.
If he were, certainly the OCA synod would have immediately defrocked him.
Certainly, they would have published his name so that women could avoid him.

In this country, persons such as Metropolitan Jonah are assumed to be innocent until proven guilty.
What ever has happened to charity? Lord have mercy.
Yes, Maria, whatever happened to charity? I see you're not showing any.

How so?

I am truthfully saying that LESS is BEST.
Was that three page letter on July 16, 2012 posted by the OCA Synod dripping with charity? No.
Did they publish the truth in love? No, because their charges against Met. Jonah were unsubstantiated and vague.

Again, the so-called OCA priest should have been named in that letter and that priest should have been placed immediately on administrative leave to protect women and girls. Why wasn't this done?

The OCA Synod is seriously derelict by not naming this so-called OCA priest and removing him from public service.

St. Nectarios was treated similarly when he was serving in Alexandria as a Bishop.
He was also charged with vague sexual accusations which were never proven.
Maria, do you know enough about what the Synod is dealing with, what they've done, and what they've not done, to be able to make such statements? I don't think so. If not, how are not making accusations against the Holy Synod that you cannot substantiate? How are you not slandering the Holy Synod of the OCA?

Just re-read that letter.
Then ask yourself if that three page letter really needed to be published?
Did it settle anything? No.
Did it raise vague charges against Met. Jonah? Yes, and there is the lack of charity. In addition, that very letter raised serious questions like why the name of the so-called OCA Priest was not released by the OCA Synod when he obviously was considered to be a threat to women by his prior arrest for violence.

I am wondering if there is a cult mentality associated with the current OCA synod.
Again, you do not know what is going on inside the Synod, so the best you can do right now is shut up, because all you're doing right now is setting yourself up to be a judge of matters you know nothing about.

You did not answer my questions.
I'm not going to.

Why has the name of this priest not been released?
Why do you need to know?

Enough of this nonsense already. No one is saying that anyone is 'infallible' or that this matter might have been handled in a different matter. However, given the crap that has been thrown against the wall by certain parties online, it is clear to me that the Synod had to take some action to let the faithful know something was amiss.

The names of victims and the alleged perpetrator were not released for common sense reasons and because I am certain that the OCA's quite competent legal counsel advised the Synod members not to do so for obvious reasons in anticipation of a multitude of potential litigants. That is certainly the type of advice that I or any other competent attorney would have given a client under similar circumstances involving serious personal or management indiscretion allegations. The same would occur in any school district or hospital or wherever if legal charges were either not let brought or if the proof necessary to sustain criminal charges were not there but the lower burdens of proof needed for civil liability were present. For the Synod to unanimously request the resignation of the Metropolitan tells me at least, that more than just smoke and mirrors were involved. There has to be some substance to what is behind the whole mess. If not, you would have to believe that each of the nine Bishops are corrupt and venial. That is simply absurd and sinful to hold such a belief.

Give it a rest and let things play out. But comparing Metropolitan Jonah with the trials and tribulations of Saints at this point in the discussion is just ridiculous.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 20, 2012, 09:58:00 AM
^ Are you not going to say something yourself? Even just a "QFT" or something like that?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: FatherGiryus on July 20, 2012, 10:12:32 AM


Having read through the recent anonymous letter on Monomakhos, I think it requires closer analysis to see how many questions it really answers.  First, of course, is that it is anonymous.  We have no way of verifying who the author really is, whereas the letter of the Holy Synod is very clear: the bishop unanimously stand by it by name.

But, lets go through the letter (http://www.monomakhos.com/another-hole-in-the-official-story/ (http://www.monomakhos.com/another-hole-in-the-official-story/)):

1. Metropolitan Jonah did not know about this crime until mid-May 2012.
The victim of the crime is a God-daughter of mine who lives in another part of the country. No one here knew what had happened to her in 2010 until she contacted me in mid-May of 2012. At that time she and her husband had contacted the police who said that nothing could be done without more evidence. They then decided to turn to the church in order to initiate an ecclesiastical court to defrock him. She wrote a testimony of her story later in May and sent it to a ROCOR priest and to me, asking that I pass it on to Metropolitan Jonah, which I did. She included a confidentiality statement that it pass no further. Metropolitan Jonah had already in 2010 issued a letter forbidding this hieromonk to serve in any OCA church. Since he was still in a Greek jurisdiction, nothing more could be done by the OCA except to offer pastoral help to her and her husband, which the Metropolitan did by phone.


Problems:
a. The Godmother says that no one knew, but she also lives in another part of the country.  The information regarding the rape could have come out through the priest's own admission or the victim, despite what the Godmother says.
b. If ROCOR initiated an investigation, then ROCOR has jurisdiction over the priest, which means he was received along with the nuns.  Metropolitan Jonah had knowledge of the situation since he was intimately involved with the nuns.  Why would he then have no idea about the priest?  Did he warn ROCOR even if the assertion that he no jurisdiction is true?
c. It would appear the Metropolitan Jonah has some knowledge that this priest had problems, because he banned him from serving in the OCA.  Why, then, he he allow the nuns to harbor this man while they were under the metropolitan's omophorion?

2. This hieromonk was never received into the OCA so it was not possible for the OCA to defrock him.
Metropolitan Jonah issued a “no blessing to serve” in any OCA church already in 2010 in response to reports of unpriestly behavior. I myself had made one of these reports on the basis of alcohol abuse and an attempted assault of a neighbor on property owned by my family which occurred in late May 2010. Based on the information known at that time, this was the most that could be done. This hieromonk then left the area.
Nothing more was known about him until he returned to the area early in 2012, having sought from ROCOR a “blessing to serve” in its monastery outside of Washington. Now, with the revelation of his crime in May 2012, ROCOR has also rescinded its “blessing to serve”. Shortly after Pascha, he returned to the Church of Greece and the jurisdiction to which he has always belonged.


a. Since this priest was 'acting out' in a monastery that the metropolitan had received, why was this not reported to the OCA Central Administration so a proper review for liability could take place?  This seems exceedingly risky behavior from a legal standpoint, not to mention the pastoral dimension: would you want your local priest to recommend visiting a monastery where you knew an inappropriate priest active in his disease was 'hanging out'?
b.'The most that could be done' would be for the metropolitan to force the priest out of the monastery.  he certainly had that right.  Why didn't he exercise it?
c. If he was not received into ROCOR, why is there an investigation going on?  Metropolitan Jonah, by this letter, did not receive the priest, yet did not launch an investigation.  So, why should ROCOR?
d. Can the author prove that neither ROCOR nor Metropolitan Jonah received this priest?

3. My testimony to ROCOR for it’s investigation was ignored in the OCA.
I was recently requested to send a copy of the testimony that ROCOR asked me to write for it’s investigation of this hieromonk who had managed to receive a “blessing to serve” within it’s jurisdiction earlier this year before anything was known to them of his criminal activity. With the revelation of his crime in May 2012, that blessing has been rescinded and a case is being prepared for presentation to the Greek jurisdiction and the heads of all Orthodox jurisdictions. However, the description of this case cited in the letter of the Synod of Bishops is completely at odds with the evidence presented in my testimony and can be corroborated by others in Washington.


a. If the Godmother's testimony was ignored by the OCA, then we must ask how the metropolitan initiated an investigation and how procedures were followed.  Did the metropolitan follow the Sexual Misconduct policies of the OCA/  According to the letter, he did not.  This essentially explains why the testimony would be ignored: the investigation, if there is any at all, was not following procedure... which the metropolitan was duty-bound to oversee.
b. This letter cannot verify what Metopolitan Jonah knew and when he knew it.
c. This letter cannot verify exactly what communications occured between Metropolitan Jonah and ROCOR.
d. The author does not have access to official documents of the OCA to verify whether or not this priest had been merely allowed to serve or actually received.
e. If the priest was not properly received into the OCA, but then 'properly' (i.e. with letters of transfer) transferred to ROCOR, then ROCOR would be obligated to return the priest's case to the originating bishop in Greece.  This letter opens up this scenario as a distinct possibility if there is any truth in it.

After all of the threats of lawsuits in the OCA over the last few years (c.f. Bob Kondratick, Bp. Nikolai Soraich, Fr. Ray Velencia, Eric Iliff, etc.), it would seem that the Metopolitan would be extra careful about allowing an out-of-control priest to be in proximity to his flock.  I can see why the Holy Synod would also be astonished that Metropolitan Jonah kept this information from them.  A letter rescinding his blessing to serve raises more questions as to what the metropolitan knew and what he told his brethren in the Holy Synod.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 20, 2012, 10:54:43 AM
I think the situation that people might be misunderstanding here, is that we aren't dealing with a situation where the Metropolitan himself abused this girl (God forbid, he is a wonderful man) but it is the problem of how he dealt with the situation.

He apparently did not inform the synod about this Priest, which was fully within his rights and his duty to do. While the girl told the Metropolitan in confidence about the situation and he couldn't share it, he still had a duty to inform the Synod that this Priest had problems and has been accused by an anonymous source, of abuse.

Metropolitan Jonah is a good, wonderful man. He is very kind, caring and from what I've seen, humble. He is a good Orthodox Christian and a good monk. I think he would also be a good Priest and, if given time, I good diocesan Bishop. But he was just too "young" and inexperienced as a Bishop to appoint to the top position.

I don't think the statement by the Holy Synod defames him or somehow hurts his reputation. He is still a good man, he just could have dealt with this better, and it is probably best that the position of Metropolitan be given to someone who has a bit more experience as a hierarch.

I think Bishop Jonah did a fine job as Metropolitan, he could have done better and made some mistakes. Unfortunately some of those mistakes endangered faithful and endangered the church.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: katherineofdixie on July 20, 2012, 11:22:26 AM
I agree with Father and devin. First of all, the "godmother letter", whether true or not, indicates that proper procedure was not followed. As a former HR manager, and one who has had to deal with similar situations, I can tell you that according to most guidelines, once the incident/problem is reported to you, you really have no choice legally but to follow the procedure regarding informing those in charge and even the police. In fact, your only "defense" is that you have followed the guidelines and procedures of your company or organization. Now the clergy/parishioner relationship may complicate matters, but your obligation, both morally and legally, is to follow the procedures and guidelines. Not following them is what results in big problems and a greater mess.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: FatherGiryus on July 20, 2012, 11:36:09 AM
Devin, I agree that His Beatitude is a man of faith and a sincere Christian.

At this point, I'm not sure that he ever would have succeeded as a hierarch, in large part because he did not seem to get the institutional experience of the OCA and why such things as the Sexual Misconduct Policy were put in place.  If he had, as one cleric pointed out, really read the minutes of the previous ten eyars of Holy Synod sessions, he would have made better decisions.  At least, if he could have learned from them.

The difficulty here is, I think, the Metropolitan Jonah lived for many years under the thumb of Bishop Tikhon (Fitzgerald).  If you want to see Bp. Tikhon for all his glory, read his posts on Monomakhos and the Indiana List.  Basically, 'BT' is a rather bitter man, and not from being virtually compelled to retire.

His episcopacy was marked not only by his acidity, but also his neglect.  In his last years as bishop, though fully able to walk and care for himself, he made only around a dozen or so pastoral visits per year.  He rarely if ever came to the Monastery of St. John.  Instead, he made his chancellor, then Archimandrite Nikolai Soraich, the 'dea of monasteries' and sent him to the monastery to 'clean it up' on a fairly routine basis.  But, he never went himself.

Fr. Jonah, who was not made abbot until Bp. Benjamin received the diocese, learned to do what so many OCA DOW priests had learned: endure Bp. Tikhon's screeds without reacting, then go back to what you were doing before.  Fr. Jonah was popular and successful because he did not react to Bp. Tikhon, but simply ignored him and went about building up his community.

Of course, this breeds a kind of 'relational dysfunction': Metropolitan Jonah became schooled in ignoring bishops with great success, but that successful method in California did not work when he became primate.  People scratched their heads when he would 'wander off' doing his own thing without leading the Holy Synod, but that had worked for him before: his monks followed his instructions, and he never really had to heed bishops.

Opportunity does not cure dysfunction.  If a person is dysfunctional, they need to be cured first.  Otherwise, they will take their dysfunction and reassmeble it in their new circumstances.  This is, I think, the problem that Metropolitan Jonah faced.  

Bp. Tikhon made light of Archbishop Benjamin's alcohol usage and other slights, yet Bp. Tikhon recommended him for the episcopacy and laid hands on him anyway.  I think, deep down, Bp. Tikhon knew that years of being his Archdeacon had worn on Archbishop Benjamin.  However, the latter had his meltdown and sought help for his problem.  Metropolitan Jonah never did.

If there was ever a 'root cause' to the problem, it was the previous Synod's tendencies to ignore problems and act 'mercifully'.  For the OCA, mercy has never worked.  Bp. Nikolai sued the OCA and was never deposed, only to turn around and conspire with Fr. Joseph Fester (see the OCA News leaked emails).  Bp. Tikhon has never been prevented by the OCA Holy Synod from posting his horrors against them, and he has returned the favor by demanding their resignations.  Even now, an OCA priest compared the Holy Synod to Judas and cursed them, yet he will likely not be reprimanded.

If Metropolitan Jonah had only paid more attention to the institutional knowledge of the new Holy Synod, he might have been able to overcome his problems.  This is why they started with 'get help' rather than 'get lost.'  The Holy Synod was trying to help him.  Getting help works, and that's why we preach this to our people.

In the end, I think there were people who encouraged Metropolitan Jonah to continue in this dysfunction, and this led to his downfall.  My estimation is that there were a lot of people who hoped that he would carry out their wishes which were contrary to the direction of the Holy Synod.

The mere fact that the DC situation was handled outside of OCA administrative norms by the very man who was charged with supervising the administration of the OCA should tell us something.  At some point, he abandoned his self-understanding of being the supervisor of the administration.  I think this happened early on when he went to DC and left Syosset to 'run itself.'

Clearly, something was wrong.

I hope now he will get the help that he needs, for his own peace of mind.


I think the situation that people might be misunderstanding here, is that we aren't dealing with a situation where the Metropolitan himself abused this girl (God forbid, he is a wonderful man) but it is the problem of how he dealt with the situation.

He apparently did not inform the synod about this Priest, which was fully within his rights and his duty to do. While the girl told the Metropolitan in confidence about the situation and he couldn't share it, he still had a duty to inform the Synod that this Priest had problems and has been accused by an anonymous source, of abuse.

Metropolitan Jonah is a good, wonderful man. He is very kind, caring and from what I've seen, humble. He is a good Orthodox Christian and a good monk. I think he would also be a good Priest and, if given time, I good diocesan Bishop. But he was just too "young" and inexperienced as a Bishop to appoint to the top position.

I don't think the statement by the Holy Synod defames him or somehow hurts his reputation. He is still a good man, he just could have dealt with this better, and it is probably best that the position of Metropolitan be given to someone who has a bit more experience as a hierarch.

I think Bishop Jonah did a fine job as Metropolitan, he could have done better and made some mistakes. Unfortunately some of those mistakes endangered faithful and endangered the church.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on July 20, 2012, 11:42:26 AM
I am locking this thread for a couple of days to figure out how to address issues that have been brought up with the moderation team. Thanks, Second Chance
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on July 21, 2012, 10:56:47 AM
After reviewing the case, I have determined the following.

A Forum member made the following point "(posts) that give specific identifying information (name, national origin, assignment, previous experience)--anything sufficient to determine his identity should be removed at once. I do not like the priest in question, but he is still entitled to a presumption of innocence and all other protections offered under US and canon law. I am amazed these posts weren't pulled. By the moderator and the posters warned."

The applicable rule is:

   * Criminal Accusations -- Original accusations of criminal conduct against individuals will not be made on the forum. By original, we mean accusations that are drawn from original research or from information collected from sources that are not peer-reviewed which contain original research. Examples would be a blog post without reference to legal proceedings or a news article that appears only on one or a few sites of undetermined accuracy (clarify this part up?). Determinations of appropriateness will be made by the section moderator.  If there is an ongoing, documented public criminal investigation about an individual already in process, and such a discussion is germane to the scope of this forum (for instance, an Orthodox individual is arrested for misconduct and there is a discussion about the facts of the case) then such discussion will be allowed within limit (at the discretion of the moderator of the section)."

As authorized by the rule, I have determined that:

1. Fellow moderator PeterTheAleut was correct in masking the name of the alleged priest in posts made by several Forum members. Furthermore, PetertheAleut's quick action in masking the name was an outstanding example of moderatorial responsiveness.

2. I do not accept the recommendation to mask "specific identifying information (name, national origin, assignment, previous experience)" in its totality. As indicated above, protecting the name of the individual is sufficient to be in compliance with the rule cited above. I also do not accept the recommendation to pull or delete the posts that have that information.

Since the moderators are doing their job as volunteers, it is possible that they will not be able to react quickly to the publication of the priest's name. Therefore, should such an infraction occur from now on, the offender will start in severe moderation status rather than the  usual warning status. The thread is now unlocked. Thanks, Second Chance





Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: FatherGiryus on July 21, 2012, 12:13:48 PM
Thank you, Moderation Team, for your efforts to navigate this minefield.

To respect the terms set, I will try to avoid crossing the lines.

On another forum, a trascript of a letter was posted which I will only partly quote:

11th of April 2009

To
The Elders' Council
of the Holy Monastery of XXXXXX
at XXXXXXX

In answer to your document of April 11th, 2009, Reg. No. 19, we make known to you that we approve Section B of the Minutes/11 April 2009 concerning the issuance of a joint Letter of Canonical Release to the brothers of your Monastery, XXXXXXXXX and XXXXXXXXX (lay name XXXXXXXXX), following upon the Letter of His Beatitude Jonah, Archbishop of Washington and New York, for the foundation of Sacred Monasteries therein.

THE METROPOLITAN

(signature)
X X X X
of X X X X X X X X X X X X X
(seal)


(Note to Moderators: I reviewed the Rules and am not sure how to handle this, so I posted without an originating link.  If there is a question as to where I got this from, I can provide a source, but I do not want to violate Forum rules ragarding links.)

The second name in the letter is that of the priest in question that originated this controversy.  So, His Beatitude requested this priest and the originating metropolitan issued a release.

Now, some are saying that because Metropolitan Jonah did not enroll this priest in the usual manner, that he was not 'technically received' into the OCA.  This is a very hard position to hold, since the situation looks very much like a standard transfer.  Whether a form was filled out or a data entry made, the fact is that the priest in question was:

1. Requested by His Beatitude
2. Released with a formal letter by the originating bishop
3. Took up residency in the territory of His Beatitude
4. Served in the cathedral of His Beatitude

It passes the Duck Rule. It also passes the canonical test for a transfer.  Whether His Beatitude officially notified his own administration of the transfer has no bearing on the canons.

This punches a hole in the "Godmother's Letter" which claims no transfer occured, as well as the narrative that the Holy Synod's letter was inaccurate.  Now, we can make allowances for people who were unaware that the transfer had been completed because the priest in question was not enrolled in the clergy list of the OCA, but that does not erase the fact that this transfer was done according to the canons.

The larger question now is what ROCOR was told by His Beatitude.  If there is a variance between the facts of the transfer and the narrative it was given, ROCOR has every right to feel upset.

Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on July 21, 2012, 02:38:56 PM
Thank you Father Giryus for your scrupulous observance of the Forum rules.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: FatherGiryus on July 21, 2012, 05:01:30 PM
My thanks to the Moderator team for giving this situation due consideration!

Thank you Father Giryus for your scrupulous observance of the Forum rules.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PrincessMommy on July 21, 2012, 05:10:32 PM
Thank you Fr. Giryus

I do feel that we should give the transcript the same critical thought that we should give the letter from the godmother.  How clear is it that it is authentic?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Nigula Qian Zishi on July 21, 2012, 06:34:12 PM
This was published on the Yahoo Orthodox Forum:

Quote
From: metjonah@oca.org
To: BPBasil@aol.com
Sent: 4/23/2011 7:25:59 P.M. Central Daylight Time
Subj: Fwd: documents (1 of 2)

Dear Saidna Basil,

Wishing you a joyous Pascha! I look forward to greeting you at the Episcopal Assembly if not before.

Attached are the documents for [the priest].

He applied to the OCA, but we have declined to accept him. Fr Constantine Nassar in Oklahoma City was inquiring about him, so I thought to send you the documents. Fr Constantine called and expressed willingness to lend him a hand to get him through a difficult period in his life.

Some unfortunate things happened with him and the DC Cathedral community and OCA, which make it impossible for me to accept him canonically. He has been greatly slandered.

You are in my thoughts and prayers. For me this has been a very difficult Lent, as you may have heard. Please keep me in your prayers.

Kalo Pascha!

With love in Christ,

+Jonah
Archbishop of Washington
Metropolitan of All America and Canada
PO Box 675, Syosset, NY 11791-0675
(516)922-0550 Fax (516)922-0954

Notice, not once did His Beatitude say that this priest was in the OCA! He was not received, nor accepted, unilaterally or otherwise.

Taken from http://www.monomakhos.com/well-that-was-easy/ (http://www.monomakhos.com/well-that-was-easy/)
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: FatherGiryus on July 21, 2012, 09:28:28 PM
This is contrary to the understanding of the releasing metropolitan: His Beatitude requested the priest.  There simply is no way to request, then receive, then say that he was not received.  Look at the document from the originating metropolitan... the priest did not apply to the OCA, he was requested.  Very different.

So, the question remains, what really happened?  It appears there are documents telling two different stories.

My inclination is to think that something along these lines happened (this is just a theory based on what's come out so far):

1. Metropolitan Jonah, either in conjunction with the nuns or directly with the priest in question, thought that it would be a good idea for the priest to come to the US with the nuns and serve in DC.

2. His Beatitude initiated a formal request.

3. The originating monastery agreed, and the release letter to Metropolitan Jonah was sent by the originating metropolitan.

4. The OCA Holy Synod found out and resisted the arrangement at some point, either prior to the issuing of the letter or shortly afterwards.

5. Metropolitan Jonah did not want a fight with the Holy Synod, so he received the clergyman but did not enroll him formally into the OCA clergy rolls (hence, no listing on oca.org, etc.).  Hence, we have 'receiving without receiving.'

6. Accusations and rumors reached His Beatitude.

7. His Beatitude prevented the priest from serving, then began entertaining possible opportunities for the priest to go elsewhere.

8. Eventually, some type of deal was reached with ROCOR, though it is unclear whether the priest was represented as having been officially received into the OCA or merely 'on loan.'

That's as far as I can take this.  Obviously, the bishops of ROCOR have not released the actual letter they received from Metropolitan Jonah.  I think it would clear up a great deal, but I would not hold my breath for anything anytime soon.  I believe they run a pretty tight ship and leaks seem improbably.


This was published on the Yahoo Orthodox Forum:

Quote
From: metjonah@oca.org
To: BPBasil@aol.com
Sent: 4/23/2011 7:25:59 P.M. Central Daylight Time
Subj: Fwd: documents (1 of 2)

Dear Saidna Basil,

Wishing you a joyous Pascha! I look forward to greeting you at the Episcopal Assembly if not before.

Attached are the documents for [the priest].

He applied to the OCA, but we have declined to accept him. Fr Constantine Nassar in Oklahoma City was inquiring about him, so I thought to send you the documents. Fr Constantine called and expressed willingness to lend him a hand to get him through a difficult period in his life.

Some unfortunate things happened with him and the DC Cathedral community and OCA, which make it impossible for me to accept him canonically. He has been greatly slandered.

You are in my thoughts and prayers. For me this has been a very difficult Lent, as you may have heard. Please keep me in your prayers.

Kalo Pascha!

With love in Christ,

+Jonah
Archbishop of Washington
Metropolitan of All America and Canada
PO Box 675, Syosset, NY 11791-0675
(516)922-0550 Fax (516)922-0954

Notice, not once did His Beatitude say that this priest was in the OCA! He was not received, nor accepted, unilaterally or otherwise.

Taken from http://www.monomakhos.com/well-that-was-easy/ (http://www.monomakhos.com/well-that-was-easy/)
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: FatherGiryus on July 21, 2012, 09:32:44 PM
So far, no one has questioned its authenticity.

Thank you Fr. Giryus

I do feel that we should give the transcript the same critical thought that we should give the letter from the godmother.  How clear is it that it is authentic?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Seraphim98 on July 22, 2012, 10:21:18 PM
Does anyone know how other Orthodox jurisdictions are reacting to this news of the metropolitan's forced resignation? I've seen no statements of any of them on the matter…I would think the MP at least might have some sort of comment…even if it is "we are evaluating the situation" politicspeak.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: FatherGiryus on July 22, 2012, 10:58:24 PM
The smart money is on keeping silent until all the implosions die down.  

Very clearly, there are conflicting narratives.

The problem is that most of important documents are either in the custody of Metropolitan Jonah (i.e. the exact letter of transfer sent from overseas, copy of the letters to ROCOR, etc.) or in the custody of the various hierarchs involved with a number of the issues in question.  My guess is that the latter category find it distasteful to post the letters and thereby aggravating a situation outside their respective jurisdictions.

Meanwhile, everyone is praying someone else's 'gift of repentance.'


Does anyone know how other Orthodox jurisdictions are reacting to this news of the metropolitan's forced resignation? I've seen no statements of any of them on the matter…I would think the MP at least might have some sort of comment…even if it is "we are evaluating the situation" politicspeak.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: rakovsky on July 22, 2012, 11:10:24 PM
Fr Constantine called and expressed willingness to lend him a hand to get him through a difficult period in his life.

Some unfortunate things happened with him and the DC Cathedral community and OCA, which make it impossible for me to accept him canonically. He has been greatly slandered.

Kalo Pascha!

With love in Christ,

+Jonah
Archbishop of Washington
Metropolitan of All America and Canada
PO Box 675, Syosset, NY 11791-0675
(516)922-0550 Fax (516)922-0954

Fr. Giryius,

From your summation of what you guess, and from this letter it doesnt necessarily sound that what Met.Jonah thought he was doing was so bad. Perhaps when he took those missteps toward receiving the priest he did not know what the real situation was. Perhaps the priest made an appeal to him and he thought the charges were exaggerated.

In such a case, even if it's true the priest was bad, it would not mean Met. Jonah was. Besides this possible issue, it seems more likely that there is some other issue, like the Met.'s treatment in the clinic, that may be playing a much larger role.

The other major thing, like the expensive move to D.C. from New York seems bad, but also seems like it would not be enough. And things like the "culture wars" claims or other things from the newspaper seem not so important here.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 22, 2012, 11:24:53 PM
Fr Constantine called and expressed willingness to lend him a hand to get him through a difficult period in his life.

Some unfortunate things happened with him and the DC Cathedral community and OCA, which make it impossible for me to accept him canonically. He has been greatly slandered.

Kalo Pascha!

With love in Christ,

+Jonah
Archbishop of Washington
Metropolitan of All America and Canada
PO Box 675, Syosset, NY 11791-0675
(516)922-0550 Fax (516)922-0954

Fr. Giryius,

From your summation of what you guess, and from this letter it doesnt necessarily sound that what Met.Jonah thought he was doing was so bad. Perhaps when he took those missteps toward receiving the priest he did not know what the real situation was. Perhaps the priest made an appeal to him and he thought the charges were exaggerated.

In such a case, even if it's true the priest was bad, it would not mean Met. Jonah was. Besides this possible issue, it seems more likely that there is some other issue, like the Met.'s treatment in the clinic, that may be playing a much larger role.

The other major thing, like the expensive move to D.C. from New York seems bad, but also seems like it would not be enough. And things like the "culture wars" claims or other things from the newspaper seem not so important here.
My advice, rakovsky: Quit speculating; you're only tying your brain up in knots.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: podkarpatska on July 22, 2012, 11:28:52 PM
The smart money is on keeping silent until all the implosions die down.  

Very clearly, there are conflicting narratives.

The problem is that most of important documents are either in the custody of Metropolitan Jonah (i.e. the exact letter of transfer sent from overseas, copy of the letters to ROCOR, etc.) or in the custody of the various hierarchs involved with a number of the issues in question.  My guess is that the latter category find it distasteful to post the letters and thereby aggravating a situation outside their respective jurisdictions.

Meanwhile, everyone is praying someone else's 'gift of repentance.'


Does anyone know how other Orthodox jurisdictions are reacting to this news of the metropolitan's forced resignation? I've seen no statements of any of them on the matter…I would think the MP at least might have some sort of comment…even if it is "we are evaluating the situation" politicspeak.

There is an OpEd  piece in this morning's Washington Post dealing with the lack of trust in institutions and in documents which is prevalent among Americans these days. Although the piece is written in the context of the current presidential political campaign, the premise of the author is equally applicable to the OCA's predicament with respect to Metropolitan Jonah and the validity of documents. http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/romneys-tax-returns-obamas-birth-certificate-and-the-end-of-trust/2012/07/20/gJQA2eZbyW_story.html?tid=pm_opinions_pop

The author notes:  "The more Americans mistrust politics, the news media, business and virtually every other major institution, the more demand there is for the documents, the proof, the evidence we need to get to the “real truth.” " Document battles — whether trumped-up election-season kerfuffles or genuine quests for important information — have been a mainstay of every national campaign since 2000. That should tell us that the hunger for proof stems from something much deeper than our search for the immaculate candidate. It’s part of our larger national neurosis, the corrosion of the sense that whatever our political leanings, we all share a common fact base. The fraying of that consensus has led increasingly to an entrenched popular skepticism, a stance toward politicians and institutions of all kinds that’s not just an arched-eyebrow “Show me,” but an obstinate and insistent “I don’t believe you.” "

Anyway, it is worth the read and says much about the dilemma the Church faces in attempting to convince a skeptical body of the faithful.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: rakovsky on July 23, 2012, 12:06:28 AM
My advice, rakovsky: Quit speculating; you're only tying your brain up in knots.

Basically I will get Alzheimer's?
Quote
Tangles of dying nerve cells may form in your brain, and these knots are made of twisted protein. Tangles occur in cell transport systems when a protein called tau decreases and tangles occur in the strands.
Read more: Brain Knots and Seizures | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_6293356_brain-knots-seizures.html#ixzz21PoJDWrB
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Opus118 on July 23, 2012, 12:08:35 AM
Fr Constantine called and expressed willingness to lend him a hand to get him through a difficult period in his life.

Some unfortunate things happened with him and the DC Cathedral community and OCA, which make it impossible for me to accept him canonically. He has been greatly slandered.

Kalo Pascha!

With love in Christ,

+Jonah
Archbishop of Washington
Metropolitan of All America and Canada
PO Box 675, Syosset, NY 11791-0675
(516)922-0550 Fax (516)922-0954

Fr. Giryius,

From your summation of what you guess, and from this letter it doesnt necessarily sound that what Met.Jonah thought he was doing was so bad. Perhaps when he took those missteps toward receiving the priest he did not know what the real situation was. Perhaps the priest made an appeal to him and he thought the charges were exaggerated.

In such a case, even if it's true the priest was bad, it would not mean Met. Jonah was. Besides this possible issue, it seems more likely that there is some other issue, like the Met.'s treatment in the clinic, that may be playing a much larger role.

The other major thing, like the expensive move to D.C. from New York seems bad, but also seems like it would not be enough. And things like the "culture wars" claims or other things from the newspaper seem not so important here.
My advice, rakovsky: Quit speculating; you're only tying your brain up in knots.

I concur, but for a different reason. I believe you are a special asset to this forum and you should not be involved in speculative issues of this sort. I would prefer that you not think about issues beyond your control, but in the end it is your choice.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: kevlev on July 23, 2012, 12:23:25 AM
Does anyone know how other Orthodox jurisdictions are reacting to this news of the metropolitan's forced resignation? I've seen no statements of any of them on the matter…I would think the MP at least might have some sort of comment…even if it is "we are evaluating the situation" politicspeak.

Anyone?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Basil 320 on July 23, 2012, 12:30:57 AM
No, I haven't seen anything, well, I saw one from someone who"thought" something that isn't worth repeating because there was no basis for the "thought."
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Hermogenes on July 23, 2012, 10:53:59 AM
Does anyone know how other Orthodox jurisdictions are reacting to this news of the metropolitan's forced resignation? I've seen no statements of any of them on the matter…I would think the MP at least might have some sort of comment…even if it is "we are evaluating the situation" politicspeak.

Would everybody please stop with the "forced resignation" stuff? Unless you have some new documentation, HB's departure seems to be what the synod said it was. Enough made-up conspiracies, PLEASE.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: FatherGiryus on July 23, 2012, 11:23:29 AM
I don't think anyone involved is 'bad.'  I think there are some problems.

For example, there is a question as to why the priest in question was not enrolled in the clergy of the OCA.  Apparently, the Holy Synod of the OCA had objections to this clergyman in particular which prevented his enrollment.  Obviously, His Beatitude had every intention of enrolling him, given his request to the originating metropolitan, and so only the Holy Synod could stop him.

I have heard one theory, and it is only a theory, was the concern that the priest in question along with the 'DC Nuns' are 'Dionysians' as opposed to 'Athonite.'  In the world of Byzantine monasticism, there appear to be at least two parties as described, and they do not get along for whatever reason. I don't know much about the tensions between the two parties, but they are there and may have played a role in what is going on.

However, I don't know for sure if this played a role, but I think as an alternative explanation may help in diffusing any speculation that this situation is solely about the accusations of impropriety as being the sole factor in all of this.  There may be plenty of sub-plots here that will make things more complicated than we imagined.

These complications do not necessitate 'good' or 'bad' labels, and I think we should avoid such terminology until all the facts come out.


Fr Constantine called and expressed willingness to lend him a hand to get him through a difficult period in his life.

Some unfortunate things happened with him and the DC Cathedral community and OCA, which make it impossible for me to accept him canonically. He has been greatly slandered.

Kalo Pascha!

With love in Christ,

+Jonah
Archbishop of Washington
Metropolitan of All America and Canada
PO Box 675, Syosset, NY 11791-0675
(516)922-0550 Fax (516)922-0954

Fr. Giryius,

From your summation of what you guess, and from this letter it doesnt necessarily sound that what Met.Jonah thought he was doing was so bad. Perhaps when he took those missteps toward receiving the priest he did not know what the real situation was. Perhaps the priest made an appeal to him and he thought the charges were exaggerated.

In such a case, even if it's true the priest was bad, it would not mean Met. Jonah was. Besides this possible issue, it seems more likely that there is some other issue, like the Met.'s treatment in the clinic, that may be playing a much larger role.

The other major thing, like the expensive move to D.C. from New York seems bad, but also seems like it would not be enough. And things like the "culture wars" claims or other things from the newspaper seem not so important here.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Basil 320 on July 23, 2012, 12:21:20 PM
Possibly related to this, I never understood what was so wrong with the "D.C. Nuns," why were they so controversial?  I know that many believed that they had not been canonically released from their bishop in Greece, but I don't understand why so many opposed their admission to the OCA.  Is it this matter of them not being Athonite?  Does anyone know why they were so controversial while Metropolitan Jonah was trying to have them admitted? 
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: jah777 on July 23, 2012, 12:28:53 PM
Obviously, His Beatitude had every intention of enrolling him, given his request to the originating metropolitan,

Father, this is just further speculation.  What we know is that the priest’s bishop released him to Met Jonah in response to a request from Met Jonah.  What is not clear is the exact nature of Met Jonah’s request and the basis of that request.  In other words, was the release of this priest to Met Jonah in response to Met Jonah’s request for “a priest-monk” to help in establishing monasteries, or did Met Jonah request this priest by name?  If Met Jonah did in fact request this priest by name (which hasn’t been demonstrated), why did he request this particular priest?  Did he know this priest very well before making the request, or was the request made based on (bad) information from others? 

I have heard from some who attend St. Nicholas Cathedral in D.C., where this priest spent some time, that Met Jonah did not think well of the accused priest.  It could be that Met Jonah made the request to the priest’s bishop in Greece with every intention of receiving this priest into the OCA, but when the priest arrived and Met Jonah got to know him better, Met Jonah changed his mind and had every intention of not receiving him into the OCA.  It could be that after Met Jonah invited him, Bp Melchizedek (who probably knew this priest from the time he spent in Greece) raised a number of concerns to Met Jonah that also dissuaded him from receiving this priest.  So, while the priest was released to Met Jonah, I have seen no evidence that would suggest that this priest was ever formally received by Met Jonah or enlisted in the OCA.  I also have seen no evidence to suggest that Met Jonah still intended on receiving him after he got to know him better following the priest’s arrival. 

At this point, the whole situation seems very cloudy.  Everyone has read the Synod’s version of events.  I have reason to believe the godmother’s version of events relating to the accused priest.  Beyond that, there seems to be a thousand questions that have not been addressed and a hundred people on the Internet who have developed pet theories without any access to actual inside information.  We can pray for Met Jonah and the Synod, and hope that all will be resolved that should be resolved, but beyond that I think most of the speculation around these events is unproductive, futile, and even dangerous.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: FatherGiryus on July 23, 2012, 12:31:06 PM
The criticism I heard was that there was plenty of monastic foundation in the OCA already, and it was seen as unnecessary and confusing to add not only a new 'foreign' element, but one from the Byzantine tradition rather than Slavic or Romanian, which are already well-established in the US under the OCA.  However, I must emphasize that I am not sure the Metopolitan's vision regarding their role was ever completely explained in a public manner.  If I missed it, I would appreciate someone pointing out where such a vision was released for general review.

Possibly related to this, I never understood what was so wrong with the "D.C. Nuns," why were they so controversial?  I know that many believed that they had not been canonically released from their bishop in Greece, but I don't understand why so many opposed their admission to the OCA.  Is it this matter of them not being Athonite?  Does anyone know why they were so controversial while Metropolitan Jonah was trying to have them admitted? 
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Iconodule on July 23, 2012, 12:48:00 PM
I have heard one theory, and it is only a theory, was the concern that the priest in question along with the 'DC Nuns' are 'Dionysians' as opposed to 'Athonite.'  In the world of Byzantine monasticism, there appear to be at least two parties as described, and they do not get along for whatever reason. I don't know much about the tensions between the two parties, but they are there and may have played a role in what is going on.

Could you possibly point us in a direction where these terms might be defined? I've never heard of "Dionysian" monasticism as a distinct tendency.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Basil 320 on July 23, 2012, 12:56:14 PM
The criticism I heard was that there was plenty of monastic foundation in the OCA already, and it was seen as unnecessary and confusing to add not only a new 'foreign' element, but one from the Byzantine tradition rather than Slavic or Romanian, which are already well-established in the US under the OCA.  However, I must emphasize that I am not sure the Metopolitan's vision regarding their role was ever completely explained in a public manner.  If I missed it, I would appreciate someone pointing out where such a vision was released for general review.

Possibly related to this, I never understood what was so wrong with the "D.C. Nuns," why were they so controversial?  I know that many believed that they had not been canonically released from their bishop in Greece, but I don't understand why so many opposed their admission to the OCA.  Is it this matter of them not being Athonite?  Does anyone know why they were so controversial while Metropolitan Jonah was trying to have them admitted?  

Ok, thanks Father.  Just to note, although they had been in a Greek monastery, I thought the "D.C. Nuns" were American women.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Opus118 on July 23, 2012, 01:34:41 PM
The criticism I heard was that there was plenty of monastic foundation in the OCA already, and it was seen as unnecessary and confusing to add not only a new 'foreign' element, but one from the Byzantine tradition rather than Slavic or Romanian, which are already well-established in the US under the OCA.  However, I must emphasize that I am not sure the Metopolitan's vision regarding their role was ever completely explained in a public manner.  If I missed it, I would appreciate someone pointing out where such a vision was released for general review.

Possibly related to this, I never understood what was so wrong with the "D.C. Nuns," why were they so controversial?  I know that many believed that they had not been canonically released from their bishop in Greece, but I don't understand why so many opposed their admission to the OCA.  Is it this matter of them not being Athonite?  Does anyone know why they were so controversial while Metropolitan Jonah was trying to have them admitted?  

Ok, thanks Father.  Just to note, although they had been in a Greek monastery, I thought the "D.C. Nuns" were American women.

The Abbess for sure. Abbess Aemiliane is the Sister that got crushed in the Kansas City Hyatt Regency Walkway collapse.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: pensateomnia on July 23, 2012, 01:39:39 PM
I have heard one theory, and it is only a theory, was the concern that the priest in question along with the 'DC Nuns' are 'Dionysians' as opposed to 'Athonite.'  In the world of Byzantine monasticism, there appear to be at least two parties as described, and they do not get along for whatever reason. I don't know much about the tensions between the two parties, but they are there and may have played a role in what is going on.

Could you possibly point us in a direction where these terms might be defined? I've never heard of "Dionysian" monasticism as a distinct tendency.

It's not a tendency. It's a cluster of monasteries/convents, all of which claim a particular man, Elder Dionysios, as their Elder.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: pensateomnia on July 23, 2012, 01:45:16 PM
The criticism I heard was that there was plenty of monastic foundation in the OCA already, and it was seen as unnecessary and confusing to add not only a new 'foreign' element, but one from the Byzantine tradition rather than Slavic or Romanian, which are already well-established in the US under the OCA.  However, I must emphasize that I am not sure the Metopolitan's vision regarding their role was ever completely explained in a public manner.  If I missed it, I would appreciate someone pointing out where such a vision was released for general review.

Possibly related to this, I never understood what was so wrong with the "D.C. Nuns," why were they so controversial?  I know that many believed that they had not been canonically released from their bishop in Greece, but I don't understand why so many opposed their admission to the OCA.  Is it this matter of them not being Athonite?  Does anyone know why they were so controversial while Metropolitan Jonah was trying to have them admitted?  

Another criticism was simply against the basic idea -- a co-mingling of cathedral/monastery/church headquarters under one inter-related complex -- as a recipe for confusion of (canonical) roles.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Hermogenes on July 23, 2012, 01:51:37 PM
The criticism I heard was that there was plenty of monastic foundation in the OCA already, and it was seen as unnecessary and confusing to add not only a new 'foreign' element, but one from the Byzantine tradition rather than Slavic or Romanian, which are already well-established in the US under the OCA.  However, I must emphasize that I am not sure the Metopolitan's vision regarding their role was ever completely explained in a public manner.  If I missed it, I would appreciate someone pointing out where such a vision was released for general review.

Possibly related to this, I never understood what was so wrong with the "D.C. Nuns," why were they so controversial?  I know that many believed that they had not been canonically released from their bishop in Greece, but I don't understand why so many opposed their admission to the OCA.  Is it this matter of them not being Athonite?  Does anyone know why they were so controversial while Metropolitan Jonah was trying to have them admitted?  

Another criticism was simply against the basic idea -- a co-mingling of cathedral/monastery/church headquarters under one inter-related complex -- as a recipe for confusion of (canonical) roles.

Even though it worked OK for more than a thousand years.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Gorazd on July 23, 2012, 02:58:23 PM
It's not a tendency. It's a cluster of monasteries/convents, all of which claim a particular man, Elder Dionysios, as their Elder.

Having visited three of his monasteries in Greece (two women's and one men's monastery), I would like to mention that they are quite controversial.

There seems to be quite a personality cult around elder Dionysios, and his style of leadership is very centered on his person. He forbids his monastics from confessing to anyone else in his absence. If he is not near, he hears confession through the phone. One of of his monasteries is next door to a home for mentally disabled children. He has forbidden the nuns from volunteering there. Instead, he has them raise sheep and goats, whose meat he blessed them to eat (!).

He is in conflict with several diocesan bishops in Greece, there even was one case when he blessed one of his abbesses to sue a bishop in a civil court. It is not surprising that they went to the OCA and later ROCOR, since there is no way GOARCH would have let him start a monastery in the US. He is on good terms with the MP though (if I recall correctly, he has met with Pat. Kyrill), and the Greek bishops seem to be unhappy with his entertaining such relations behing the back of the Greek bishops.

By the way, many (most?) of his monks and nuns are not Greek, and amongs those who are Greek, several have grown up aborad. There are many converts - Americans, Germans, former Russian Jews who have become Orthodox, also some Orthodox from countries other than Greece, especially the former USSR.


I cannot really say what all this means for the current situation in the OCA, but (and this is just my personal opinion), two things see to be possible:
1) Someone from the Greeks complained about the presence of the Dionysians in the OCA and/or
2) the Dionysians were seen as (and quite possibly, rightly so, but I cannot know for sure) as an alternative power structure, with the potential to weaken the positin of the local bishops and the OCA's Holy Synod.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: pensateomnia on July 23, 2012, 04:03:00 PM
The criticism I heard was that there was plenty of monastic foundation in the OCA already, and it was seen as unnecessary and confusing to add not only a new 'foreign' element, but one from the Byzantine tradition rather than Slavic or Romanian, which are already well-established in the US under the OCA.  However, I must emphasize that I am not sure the Metopolitan's vision regarding their role was ever completely explained in a public manner.  If I missed it, I would appreciate someone pointing out where such a vision was released for general review.

Possibly related to this, I never understood what was so wrong with the "D.C. Nuns," why were they so controversial?  I know that many believed that they had not been canonically released from their bishop in Greece, but I don't understand why so many opposed their admission to the OCA.  Is it this matter of them not being Athonite?  Does anyone know why they were so controversial while Metropolitan Jonah was trying to have them admitted?  

Another criticism was simply against the basic idea -- a co-mingling of cathedral/monastery/church headquarters under one inter-related complex -- as a recipe for confusion of (canonical) roles.

Even though it worked OK for more than a thousand years.


Certainly not. A monk involved in cathedral life or church administration is no monk at all. At least not in the Orthodox tradition.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: mike on July 23, 2012, 04:08:12 PM
Are you sure? ^
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Hermogenes on July 23, 2012, 06:05:49 PM
The criticism I heard was that there was plenty of monastic foundation in the OCA already, and it was seen as unnecessary and confusing to add not only a new 'foreign' element, but one from the Byzantine tradition rather than Slavic or Romanian, which are already well-established in the US under the OCA.  However, I must emphasize that I am not sure the Metopolitan's vision regarding their role was ever completely explained in a public manner.  If I missed it, I would appreciate someone pointing out where such a vision was released for general review.

Possibly related to this, I never understood what was so wrong with the "D.C. Nuns," why were they so controversial?  I know that many believed that they had not been canonically released from their bishop in Greece, but I don't understand why so many opposed their admission to the OCA.  Is it this matter of them not being Athonite?  Does anyone know why they were so controversial while Metropolitan Jonah was trying to have them admitted?  

Another criticism was simply against the basic idea -- a co-mingling of cathedral/monastery/church headquarters under one inter-related complex -- as a recipe for confusion of (canonical) roles.

Even though it worked OK for more than a thousand years.


Certainly not. A monk involved in cathedral life or church administration is no monk at all. At least not in the Orthodox tradition.

Are you a monk?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: JamesR on July 24, 2012, 12:31:44 AM
I'm a little late here. I read the Synod's statement about Met. Jonah's resignation a few weeks ago. Has anyone discovered any new writings or sources about this to look at? What do we know about the Priest who raped that woman? Are there any other sources stating what happened? Perhaps from a different perspective?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Father H on July 24, 2012, 01:38:14 AM
Are you sure? ^

Well, "at all" seems a little strong.  But still, as His Beatitude Metropolitan Constantine of blessed memory once told me, "because a monk lives in his house does not make it a monastery." 
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: jewish voice on July 24, 2012, 02:14:41 AM
Being that I'm not Orthodox I have a question on this. Can (Met) Jonah change out of the OCA if he wished to like go over to the Greek or Rocor ? If so could he still keep his higher office? I'm an outsider looking in but to me it seams that OCA kinda throw him under the bus so to speak by airing lots of dirty stuff on him when I have yet to see anything that Jonah has wrote on his own bad about the OCA.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 24, 2012, 02:39:55 AM
Being that I'm not Orthodox I have a question on this. Can (Met) Jonah change out of the OCA if he wished to like go over to the Greek or Rocor ?
He would need to go through a formal transfer process where he receives the blessing of both the synod of the OCA and the synod of the jurisdiction to which he wishes to transfer.

If so could he still keep his higher office?
I suppose he could be received into his new jurisdiction as a bishop, but certainly not as the leading bishop of his new synod.

I'm an outsider looking in but to me it seams that OCA kinda throw him under the bus so to speak by airing lots of dirty stuff on him when I have yet to see anything that Jonah has wrote on his own bad about the OCA.
One who stands outside the Church should not judge so quickly that which goes on inside the Church. For one, you're likely getting much less information than we are, and we're not getting all that much ourselves.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Basil 320 on July 24, 2012, 02:42:10 AM
Being that I'm not Orthodox I have a question on this. Can (Met) Jonah change out of the OCA if he wished to like go over to the Greek or Rocor ? If so could he still keep his higher office? I'm an outsider looking in but to me it seams that OCA kinda throw him under the bus so to speak by airing lots of dirty stuff on him when I have yet to see anything that Jonah has wrote on his own bad about the OCA.

Technically, yes, the OCA would have to agree to release him and another jurisdiction would determine if they wished for him to be transferred into their church, but an Orthodox Church would have to respect the office to which another Orthodox Church had ordained him.  But, as he is a metropolitan without ruling authority, he could be accepted by another jurisdiction as a metropolitan, without assigning him to rule a diocese, though if they wished to assign him to a ruling see of their church, do so.  Is ROCOR's Australian diocese vacant?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: katherineofdixie on July 24, 2012, 10:32:08 AM
Our priest, who loves Metropolitan Jonah and who has actually had him stay in his house, reported on Sunday that he was satisfied by the Chancellor's explanation and talk with the priests at the recent Diocese of the South conference.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: pensateomnia on July 24, 2012, 11:49:53 AM
Are you sure? ^

Quite. It's in the canons, canonical commentators (through the 18th century), spiritual literature, hagiographies, monastic typika, imperial foundation documents, etc. Monasteries are a place cut off from the world and ecclesiastical affairs, a place of repentance, obedience, and penance -- not teaching or pastoral authority.

As the Fathers at Hagia Sophia 879 put it, echoing pious custom and law since Chalcedon:

Quote
Although beforehand some bishops, having descended to the habit of monks, have been forced nevertheless to remain in the height of the prelacy, they have been overlooked when they did so. But, with this in mind, this holy and ecumenical council, with a view to regulating this oversight, and readjusting this irregular practice to the ecclesiastical statutes, has decreed that if any bishop or anyone else with a prelatical office is desirous of descending to monastic life and of replenishing the region of penitence and of penance, let him no longer cherish any claim to prelatical dignity. For the monks' conditions of subordination represent the relationship of pupilship, and not of teachership or presidency; nor do they undertake to pastor others, but are to be content with being pastored. Wherefore, in accordance with what was said previously, we decree that none of those who are on the prelatical list and are enrolled pastors shall lower themselves to the level of the pastored and repentant. If anyone should dare to do so, after the delivery and discrimination of the decision hereby being pronounced, he having deprived himself of his prelatical rank, shall no longer have the right to return to his former status, which by actual deeds he has vitiated.

That's why Emperors sent troublesome bishops to a monastery: it was the ecclesiastical equivalent of gouging out a nephew's eyes, invalidating the person for higher office. It's also why, in those few cases where a monk did rise to the episcopacy, he put off his habit and assumed the authority of a pastor.

Things get more complicated with the rise of the Studios, but, even then, the reality stayed the same. Your average bishop in 19th century Russia may have been tonsured, but he weren't no monk.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Nigula Qian Zishi on July 24, 2012, 08:18:37 PM
Being that I'm not Orthodox I have a question on this. Can (Met) Jonah change out of the OCA if he wished to like go over to the Greek or Rocor ? If so could he still keep his higher office? I'm an outsider looking in but to me it seams that OCA kinda throw him under the bus so to speak by airing lots of dirty stuff on him when I have yet to see anything that Jonah has wrote on his own bad about the OCA.

Yes, but if he went to the Greek Church a Metropolitan is lower than Archbishop by Greek ranking, so he would not be among the highest ranks int he Grrek church. :-)
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: podkarpatska on July 24, 2012, 09:21:35 PM
Are you sure? ^

Quite. It's in the canons, canonical commentators (through the 18th century), spiritual literature, hagiographies, monastic typika, imperial foundation documents, etc. Monasteries are a place cut off from the world and ecclesiastical affairs, a place of repentance, obedience, and penance -- not teaching or pastoral authority.

As the Fathers at Hagia Sophia 879 put it, echoing pious custom and law since Chalcedon:

Quote
Although beforehand some bishops, having descended to the habit of monks, have been forced nevertheless to remain in the height of the prelacy, they have been overlooked when they did so. But, with this in mind, this holy and ecumenical council, with a view to regulating this oversight, and readjusting this irregular practice to the ecclesiastical statutes, has decreed that if any bishop or anyone else with a prelatical office is desirous of descending to monastic life and of replenishing the region of penitence and of penance, let him no longer cherish any claim to prelatical dignity. For the monks' conditions of subordination represent the relationship of pupilship, and not of teachership or presidency; nor do they undertake to pastor others, but are to be content with being pastored. Wherefore, in accordance with what was said previously, we decree that none of those who are on the prelatical list and are enrolled pastors shall lower themselves to the level of the pastored and repentant. If anyone should dare to do so, after the delivery and discrimination of the decision hereby being pronounced, he having deprived himself of his prelatical rank, shall no longer have the right to return to his former status, which by actual deeds he has vitiated.

That's why Emperors sent troublesome bishops to a monastery: it was the ecclesiastical equivalent of gouging out a nephew's eyes, invalidating the person for higher office. It's also why, in those few cases where a monk did rise to the episcopacy, he put off his habit and assumed the authority of a pastor.

Things get more complicated with the rise of the Studios, but, even then, the reality stayed the same. Your average bishop in 19th century Russia may have been tonsured, but he weren't no monk.

Shipping troublesome folks, including royalty, off to a monastery wasn't limited to the east. Remember Prince Hamlet's statement to Ophelia: 'Get thee to a nunnery.'  Obviously familiar to Elizabethians.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on July 24, 2012, 09:23:49 PM
Are you sure? ^

Quite. It's in the canons, canonical commentators (through the 18th century), spiritual literature, hagiographies, monastic typika, imperial foundation documents, etc. Monasteries are a place cut off from the world and ecclesiastical affairs, a place of repentance, obedience, and penance -- not teaching or pastoral authority.

As the Fathers at Hagia Sophia 879 put it, echoing pious custom and law since Chalcedon:

Quote
Although beforehand some bishops, having descended to the habit of monks, have been forced nevertheless to remain in the height of the prelacy, they have been overlooked when they did so. But, with this in mind, this holy and ecumenical council, with a view to regulating this oversight, and readjusting this irregular practice to the ecclesiastical statutes, has decreed that if any bishop or anyone else with a prelatical office is desirous of descending to monastic life and of replenishing the region of penitence and of penance, let him no longer cherish any claim to prelatical dignity. For the monks' conditions of subordination represent the relationship of pupilship, and not of teachership or presidency; nor do they undertake to pastor others, but are to be content with being pastored. Wherefore, in accordance with what was said previously, we decree that none of those who are on the prelatical list and are enrolled pastors shall lower themselves to the level of the pastored and repentant. If anyone should dare to do so, after the delivery and discrimination of the decision hereby being pronounced, he having deprived himself of his prelatical rank, shall no longer have the right to return to his former status, which by actual deeds he has vitiated.

That's why Emperors sent troublesome bishops to a monastery: it was the ecclesiastical equivalent of gouging out a nephew's eyes, invalidating the person for higher office. It's also why, in those few cases where a monk did rise to the episcopacy, he put off his habit and assumed the authority of a pastor.

Things get more complicated with the rise of the Studios, but, even then, the reality stayed the same. Your average bishop in 19th century Russia may have been tonsured, but he weren't no monk.

Shipping troublesome folks, including royalty, off to a monastery wasn't limited to the east. Remember Prince Hamlet's statement to Ophelia: 'Get thee to a nunnery.'  Obviously familiar to Elizabethians.

All the commentaries I have read, which commentaries my professors agreed, said that "Get thee to a nunnery" actually meant, "Get thee to a whorehouse."

However, when I was studying the history of Mexico and its literature, mention was made in several texts that wealthy maidens were often sent to a convent. This was done supposedly so that the eldest son could get most of the wealth.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Gunnarr on August 07, 2012, 10:50:17 PM
The criticism I heard was that there was plenty of monastic foundation in the OCA already, and it was seen as unnecessary and confusing to add not only a new 'foreign' element, but one from the Byzantine tradition rather than Slavic or Romanian, which are already well-established in the US under the OCA.  However, I must emphasize that I am not sure the Metopolitan's vision regarding their role was ever completely explained in a public manner.  If I missed it, I would appreciate someone pointing out where such a vision was released for general review.

Possibly related to this, I never understood what was so wrong with the "D.C. Nuns," why were they so controversial?  I know that many believed that they had not been canonically released from their bishop in Greece, but I don't understand why so many opposed their admission to the OCA.  Is it this matter of them not being Athonite?  Does anyone know why they were so controversial while Metropolitan Jonah was trying to have them admitted?  

Another criticism was simply against the basic idea -- a co-mingling of cathedral/monastery/church headquarters under one inter-related complex -- as a recipe for confusion of (canonical) roles.

Even though it worked OK for more than a thousand years.


Certainly not. A monk involved in cathedral life or church administration is no monk at all. At least not in the Orthodox tradition.

That is against the teaching of various Church Fathers and Saints such as Saint Basil the Great, Saint John Chrysostom, Saint Gregory Palamas, and Saint Gregory the Dialogist to name a few.

Saint Basil taught that monks should not be delegated to the role of the ascetic only, but instead advocated that monks should also live in the cities of the time to help them with spiritual AND earthly needs (which certainly fits right into so called "cathedral life" and "church administration")

Saint John, Saint Gregory the Dialogist, and Saint Gregory Palamas support all Bishops being selected from the monastics, and also that priests should at times be selected from the monastics. (Certainly also fits into "cathedral life" and "church administration")

Saint Palamas also teaches that the monastic life is many times more fruitful compared to any kind of "seminary" education.



Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: podkarpatska on August 08, 2012, 08:49:53 AM
The criticism I heard was that there was plenty of monastic foundation in the OCA already, and it was seen as unnecessary and confusing to add not only a new 'foreign' element, but one from the Byzantine tradition rather than Slavic or Romanian, which are already well-established in the US under the OCA.  However, I must emphasize that I am not sure the Metopolitan's vision regarding their role was ever completely explained in a public manner.  If I missed it, I would appreciate someone pointing out where such a vision was released for general review.

Possibly related to this, I never understood what was so wrong with the "D.C. Nuns," why were they so controversial?  I know that many believed that they had not been canonically released from their bishop in Greece, but I don't understand why so many opposed their admission to the OCA.  Is it this matter of them not being Athonite?  Does anyone know why they were so controversial while Metropolitan Jonah was trying to have them admitted?  

Another criticism was simply against the basic idea -- a co-mingling of cathedral/monastery/church headquarters under one inter-related complex -- as a recipe for confusion of (canonical) roles.

Even though it worked OK for more than a thousand years.


Certainly not. A monk involved in cathedral life or church administration is no monk at all. At least not in the Orthodox tradition.

That is against the teaching of various Church Fathers and Saints such as Saint Basil the Great, Saint John Chrysostom, Saint Gregory Palamas, and Saint Gregory the Dialogist to name a few.

Saint Basil taught that monks should not be delegated to the role of the ascetic only, but instead advocated that monks should also live in the cities of the time to help them with spiritual AND earthly needs (which certainly fits right into so called "cathedral life" and "church administration")

Saint John, Saint Gregory the Dialogist, and Saint Gregory Palamas support all Bishops being selected from the monastics, and also that priests should at times be selected from the monastics. (Certainly also fits into "cathedral life" and "church administration")

Saint Palamas also teaches that the monastic life is many times more fruitful compared to any kind of "seminary" education.





I would suggest that you rethink putting the word seminary in apostrophes as it implies a certain disregard or even disdain for the educational process (and through it the graduates of said schools) which produces most of our Orthodox priests across the world who faithfully serve us in the Vineyard of our parishes.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Schultz on August 08, 2012, 09:21:16 AM
Being that I'm not Orthodox I have a question on this. Can (Met) Jonah change out of the OCA if he wished to like go over to the Greek or Rocor ? If so could he still keep his higher office? I'm an outsider looking in but to me it seams that OCA kinda throw him under the bus so to speak by airing lots of dirty stuff on him when I have yet to see anything that Jonah has wrote on his own bad about the OCA.

Yes, but if he went to the Greek Church a Metropolitan is lower than Archbishop by Greek ranking, so he would not be among the highest ranks int he Grrek church. :-)

But the Met. of the OCA is also the Archbishop of Washington (at present).
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Marc1152 on August 08, 2012, 12:26:01 PM
Being that I'm not Orthodox I have a question on this. Can (Met) Jonah change out of the OCA if he wished to like go over to the Greek or Rocor ? If so could he still keep his higher office? I'm an outsider looking in but to me it seams that OCA kinda throw him under the bus so to speak by airing lots of dirty stuff on him when I have yet to see anything that Jonah has wrote on his own bad about the OCA.

Yes, but if he went to the Greek Church a Metropolitan is lower than Archbishop by Greek ranking, so he would not be among the highest ranks int he Grrek church. :-)

But the Met. of the OCA is also the Archbishop of Washington (at present).

I dont think he is still Bishop of Washington either.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PrincessMommy on August 08, 2012, 12:29:06 PM
Being that I'm not Orthodox I have a question on this. Can (Met) Jonah change out of the OCA if he wished to like go over to the Greek or Rocor ? If so could he still keep his higher office? I'm an outsider looking in but to me it seams that OCA kinda throw him under the bus so to speak by airing lots of dirty stuff on him when I have yet to see anything that Jonah has wrote on his own bad about the OCA.

Yes, but if he went to the Greek Church a Metropolitan is lower than Archbishop by Greek ranking, so he would not be among the highest ranks int he Grrek church. :-)

But the Met. of the OCA is also the Archbishop of Washington (at present).

I dont think he is still Bishop of Washington either.

no, he isn't. It's Bishop Alexander.  I met him a couple of weeks ago at our VCS.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Schultz on August 08, 2012, 01:07:51 PM
Being that I'm not Orthodox I have a question on this. Can (Met) Jonah change out of the OCA if he wished to like go over to the Greek or Rocor ? If so could he still keep his higher office? I'm an outsider looking in but to me it seams that OCA kinda throw him under the bus so to speak by airing lots of dirty stuff on him when I have yet to see anything that Jonah has wrote on his own bad about the OCA.

Yes, but if he went to the Greek Church a Metropolitan is lower than Archbishop by Greek ranking, so he would not be among the highest ranks int he Grrek church. :-)

But the Met. of the OCA is also the Archbishop of Washington (at present).

I dont think he is still Bishop of Washington either.

I just meant in general, the Metropolitan of the OCA is also Archbishop of Washington.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Gunnarr on August 08, 2012, 03:59:35 PM
The criticism I heard was that there was plenty of monastic foundation in the OCA already, and it was seen as unnecessary and confusing to add not only a new 'foreign' element, but one from the Byzantine tradition rather than Slavic or Romanian, which are already well-established in the US under the OCA.  However, I must emphasize that I am not sure the Metopolitan's vision regarding their role was ever completely explained in a public manner.  If I missed it, I would appreciate someone pointing out where such a vision was released for general review.

Possibly related to this, I never understood what was so wrong with the "D.C. Nuns," why were they so controversial?  I know that many believed that they had not been canonically released from their bishop in Greece, but I don't understand why so many opposed their admission to the OCA.  Is it this matter of them not being Athonite?  Does anyone know why they were so controversial while Metropolitan Jonah was trying to have them admitted?  

Another criticism was simply against the basic idea -- a co-mingling of cathedral/monastery/church headquarters under one inter-related complex -- as a recipe for confusion of (canonical) roles.

Even though it worked OK for more than a thousand years.


Certainly not. A monk involved in cathedral life or church administration is no monk at all. At least not in the Orthodox tradition.

That is against the teaching of various Church Fathers and Saints such as Saint Basil the Great, Saint John Chrysostom, Saint Gregory Palamas, and Saint Gregory the Dialogist to name a few.

Saint Basil taught that monks should not be delegated to the role of the ascetic only, but instead advocated that monks should also live in the cities of the time to help them with spiritual AND earthly needs (which certainly fits right into so called "cathedral life" and "church administration")

Saint John, Saint Gregory the Dialogist, and Saint Gregory Palamas support all Bishops being selected from the monastics, and also that priests should at times be selected from the monastics. (Certainly also fits into "cathedral life" and "church administration")

Saint Palamas also teaches that the monastic life is many times more fruitful compared to any kind of "seminary" education.





I would suggest that you rethink putting the word seminary in apostrophes as it implies a certain disregard or even disdain for the educational process (and through it the graduates of said schools) which produces most of our Orthodox priests across the world who faithfully serve us in the Vineyard of our parishes.

Only quoting Saint Palamas
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: podkarpatska on August 08, 2012, 06:01:45 PM
The criticism I heard was that there was plenty of monastic foundation in the OCA already, and it was seen as unnecessary and confusing to add not only a new 'foreign' element, but one from the Byzantine tradition rather than Slavic or Romanian, which are already well-established in the US under the OCA.  However, I must emphasize that I am not sure the Metopolitan's vision regarding their role was ever completely explained in a public manner.  If I missed it, I would appreciate someone pointing out where such a vision was released for general review.

Possibly related to this, I never understood what was so wrong with the "D.C. Nuns," why were they so controversial?  I know that many believed that they had not been canonically released from their bishop in Greece, but I don't understand why so many opposed their admission to the OCA.  Is it this matter of them not being Athonite?  Does anyone know why they were so controversial while Metropolitan Jonah was trying to have them admitted?  

Another criticism was simply against the basic idea -- a co-mingling of cathedral/monastery/church headquarters under one inter-related complex -- as a recipe for confusion of (canonical) roles.

Even though it worked OK for more than a thousand years.


Certainly not. A monk involved in cathedral life or church administration is no monk at all. At least not in the Orthodox tradition.

That is against the teaching of various Church Fathers and Saints such as Saint Basil the Great, Saint John Chrysostom, Saint Gregory Palamas, and Saint Gregory the Dialogist to name a few.

Saint Basil taught that monks should not be delegated to the role of the ascetic only, but instead advocated that monks should also live in the cities of the time to help them with spiritual AND earthly needs (which certainly fits right into so called "cathedral life" and "church administration")

Saint John, Saint Gregory the Dialogist, and Saint Gregory Palamas support all Bishops being selected from the monastics, and also that priests should at times be selected from the monastics. (Certainly also fits into "cathedral life" and "church administration")

Saint Palamas also teaches that the monastic life is many times more fruitful compared to any kind of "seminary" education.





I would suggest that you rethink putting the word seminary in apostrophes as it implies a certain disregard or even disdain for the educational process (and through it the graduates of said schools) which produces most of our Orthodox priests across the world who faithfully serve us in the Vineyard of our parishes.

Only quoting Saint Palamas

He is not infallible and you took him out of context in making your 'point.' (And if you are quoting someone, you should provide a citation or reference to your assertion.)
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: FatherGiryus on August 08, 2012, 08:34:10 PM
I am not aware that His Beatitude ever entirely explained his vision of integrating the "DC Nuns" into the administration of the OCA.

Certainly not. A monk involved in cathedral life or church administration is no monk at all. At least not in the Orthodox tradition.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PrincessMommy on September 08, 2012, 09:29:17 PM
This was posted either today or yesterday.

An Open Letter to the Orthodox Church in America: by Christine Fevronia

http://www.christinefevronia.blogspot.com/  (sorry I don't know how to hyperlink)

Quote
This is the story as I have pieced it together, taken from various news sources and first-hand accounts from witnesses.  What I have learned in my research is contained within the following pages.

It is well documented and quite long... but also very helpful for those of us trying to sort through all this.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PeterTheAleut on September 08, 2012, 10:35:08 PM
This was posted either today or yesterday.

An Open Letter to the Orthodox Church in America: by Christine Fevronia

http://www.christinefevronia.blogspot.com/  (sorry I don't know how to hyperlink)

Quote
This is the story as I have pieced it together, taken from various news sources and first-hand accounts from witnesses.  What I have learned in my research is contained within the following pages.

It is well documented and quite long... but also very helpful for those of us trying to sort through all this.
Why should we embrace the conclusions of one Christine Fevronia over all the other conclusions being floated around both on this forum and outside it?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: FatherGiryus on September 08, 2012, 11:59:20 PM
Whoever she is, she doesn't have a very tight grasp of the facts.  For example, she states:

Fr. Jonah was enthroned as Metropolitan of the Orthodox Church of America in November 2008, the third such Metropolitan of the autocephalous Orthodox Church of America (OCA), preceded by Metropolitan Theodosius Lazor (served 1977-2002), and Metropolitan Herman Swaiko (served 2002-2008).i

This is wrong: Metropolitan Ireney (Bekish) was the first primate of the OCA (c.f. http://oca.org/holy-synod/past-primates/ireney-bekish (http://oca.org/holy-synod/past-primates/ireney-bekish)).

She also wrote:
Prior to his elevation as Metropolitan of the OCA, Metropolitan Jonah received two Master’s degrees (Master’s of Divinity, 1985; Master’s of Theology, 1988), joined Valaam Monastery in Russia, was tonsured a Hieromonk in 1994. He founded and served as Abbot of St. John’s Monastery for 12 years.

Whereas Metropolitan Jonah's official biography says:

He was ordained to the diaconate and priesthood in 1994 and in 1995 was tonsured to monastic rank at St. Tikhon’s Monastery, South Canaan, PA, having received the name Jonah.

Her letter has a number of other errors, which I don't have time to delve into in detail (weekends are busy).  Needless to say, having invoked her emotions, I doubt it would help much to try to correct it.


This was posted either today or yesterday.

An Open Letter to the Orthodox Church in America: by Christine Fevronia

http://www.christinefevronia.blogspot.com/  (sorry I don't know how to hyperlink)

Quote
This is the story as I have pieced it together, taken from various news sources and first-hand accounts from witnesses.  What I have learned in my research is contained within the following pages.

It is well documented and quite long... but also very helpful for those of us trying to sort through all this.
Why should we embrace the conclusions of one Christine Fevronia over all the other conclusions being floated around both on this forum and outside it?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Basil 320 on September 09, 2012, 12:20:24 AM
You have to wonder about the "fact" situations she sets forth throughout her discourse, if she failed to understand even the most basic of  facts about Metropolitan Jonah's career, which are quite available to the public.  She claims he served as "Bishop of the South for less than one year."  Wrong, he never was elected Bishop of Dallas, the diocesan seat, but was elected Bishop of Fort Worth, a titular title because he was the auxiliary to the ruling bishop, Archbishop Dimitri of Dallas and the Diocese of the South.  Yes, he served "less than a year," much less than a year, 8 days if I'm not mistaken, though he had been serving as the Chancellor for a few months prior, a position he was intended to serve in as the auxiliary bishop.

Who is this women?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PrincessMommy on September 09, 2012, 08:07:12 AM
This was posted either today or yesterday.

An Open Letter to the Orthodox Church in America: by Christine Fevronia

http://www.christinefevronia.blogspot.com/  (sorry I don't know how to hyperlink)

Quote
This is the story as I have pieced it together, taken from various news sources and first-hand accounts from witnesses.  What I have learned in my research is contained within the following pages.

It is well documented and quite long... but also very helpful for those of us trying to sort through all this.
Why should we embrace the conclusions of one Christine Fevronia over all the other conclusions being floated around both on this forum and outside it?

I don't believe I said that.  Did I say that?  Don't put words in my mouth.   I put it out there because someone had taken all the pieces of the puzzle and tried to put them together in an organized manner.  If you don't like her conclusions you are certainly welcome to do the same and add your own commentary as she has.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PrincessMommy on September 09, 2012, 08:07:57 AM
Whoever she is, she doesn't have a very tight grasp of the facts.  For example, she states:

Fr. Jonah was enthroned as Metropolitan of the Orthodox Church of America in November 2008, the third such Metropolitan of the autocephalous Orthodox Church of America (OCA), preceded by Metropolitan Theodosius Lazor (served 1977-2002), and Metropolitan Herman Swaiko (served 2002-2008).i

This is wrong: Metropolitan Ireney (Bekish) was the first primate of the OCA (c.f. http://oca.org/holy-synod/past-primates/ireney-bekish (http://oca.org/holy-synod/past-primates/ireney-bekish)).

She also wrote:
Prior to his elevation as Metropolitan of the OCA, Metropolitan Jonah received two Master’s degrees (Master’s of Divinity, 1985; Master’s of Theology, 1988), joined Valaam Monastery in Russia, was tonsured a Hieromonk in 1994. He founded and served as Abbot of St. John’s Monastery for 12 years.

Whereas Metropolitan Jonah's official biography says:

He was ordained to the diaconate and priesthood in 1994 and in 1995 was tonsured to monastic rank at St. Tikhon’s Monastery, South Canaan, PA, having received the name Jonah.

Her letter has a number of other errors, which I don't have time to delve into in detail (weekends are busy).  Needless to say, having invoked her emotions, I doubt it would help much to try to correct it.


This was posted either today or yesterday.

An Open Letter to the Orthodox Church in America: by Christine Fevronia

http://www.christinefevronia.blogspot.com/  (sorry I don't know how to hyperlink)

Quote
This is the story as I have pieced it together, taken from various news sources and first-hand accounts from witnesses.  What I have learned in my research is contained within the following pages.

It is well documented and quite long... but also very helpful for those of us trying to sort through all this.
Why should we embrace the conclusions of one Christine Fevronia over all the other conclusions being floated around both on this forum and outside it?

You should email her with those corrections.  She's asked for feedback.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: FatherGiryus on September 09, 2012, 10:29:29 AM
People often ask for things they don't really want.  As in:

"Be honest... does this dress make me look fat?"

Her ends says that she has given herself emotional justification not to change her mind.  I'm not going to engage in a useless activity.  The introduction may say "I'm open," but the conclusion says, "Case closed."

I think the feedback she's really looking for is agreement.  Having read through it, I can't give her that.

You should email her with those corrections.  She's asked for feedback.

Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PeterTheAleut on September 09, 2012, 10:56:33 AM
This was posted either today or yesterday.

An Open Letter to the Orthodox Church in America: by Christine Fevronia

http://www.christinefevronia.blogspot.com/  (sorry I don't know how to hyperlink)

Quote
This is the story as I have pieced it together, taken from various news sources and first-hand accounts from witnesses.  What I have learned in my research is contained within the following pages.

It is well documented and quite long... but also very helpful for those of us trying to sort through all this.
Why should we embrace the conclusions of one Christine Fevronia over all the other conclusions being floated around both on this forum and outside it?

I don't believe I said that.  Did I say that?  Don't put words in my mouth.
I didn't say that you said that, so please calm down. :)
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PrincessMommy on September 09, 2012, 12:38:09 PM
People often ask for things they don't really want.  As in:

"Be honest... does this dress make me look fat?"

Her ends says that she has given herself emotional justification not to change her mind.  I'm not going to engage in a useless activity.  The introduction may say "I'm open," but the conclusion says, "Case closed."

I think the feedback she's really looking for is agreement.  Having read through it, I can't give her that.

You should email her with those corrections.  She's asked for feedback.


I suspect there are people on both sides who saying "case closed".   ;)  This is why I encourage EVERYONE to engage her (since she asked).  I've certainly seen enough of that attitude here.... move along folks, nothing to see here.

I know of two people who have emailed her to give her feedback and corrections (myself being one) and she's been quite open. 
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on September 09, 2012, 01:22:25 PM
People often ask for things they don't really want.  As in:

"Be honest... does this dress make me look fat?"

Her ends says that she has given herself emotional justification not to change her mind.  I'm not going to engage in a useless activity.  The introduction may say "I'm open," but the conclusion says, "Case closed."

I think the feedback she's really looking for is agreement.  Having read through it, I can't give her that.

You should email her with those corrections.  She's asked for feedback.


I suspect there are people on both sides who saying "case closed".   ;)  This is why I encourage EVERYONE to engage her (since she asked).  I've certainly seen enough of that attitude here.... move along folks, nothing to see here.

I know of two people who have emailed her to give her feedback and corrections (myself being one) and she's been quite open.  

I am not going to engage with a person who says the following:

"The SMPAC wrote on the first page of their Memorandum:  “In order to generate a readable document in a timely manner, citations and footnotes are not included; however, all of the facts and observations contained herein are based on documentary evidence available in the OCA Chancery and/or on verifiable, trustworthy statements.” This is unacceptable for an official church document.  Assertions of the nature made within the Memorandum must be verifiable."

The highlighted sentences are evidence of a mindset that will not tolerate dissent. Just who is she to think that she is competent to determine the proper quality of an official church document? Even if she had the qualifications to make such a judgment, why does she not lay out her argument in a manner that befits discussion an official church document--that is, with canonical citations and historical arguments? Something is quite rotten here and I suspect that she may be yet another incarnation of Metropolitan Jonah's eminence grise, Father Joseph Fester.

I believe this letter is nothing but yet another attempt to reinstate Metropolitan Jonah as Primate. It is part of a campaign in which the main players are the Monomakhos Blog and regular, but shadowy characters, who have Internet names like Helga, Nikos, Um, etc. I also suspect that our own Princess Mommy is somehow associated with these characters. Why else would she so ever innocently put on the table such a propaganda document?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: SolEX01 on September 09, 2012, 03:27:47 PM
People often ask for things they don't really want.  As in:

"Be honest... does this dress make me look fat?"

Her ends says that she has given herself emotional justification not to change her mind.  I'm not going to engage in a useless activity.  The introduction may say "I'm open," but the conclusion says, "Case closed."

I think the feedback she's really looking for is agreement.  Having read through it, I can't give her that.

You should email her with those corrections.  She's asked for feedback.


I suspect there are people on both sides who saying "case closed".   ;)  This is why I encourage EVERYONE to engage her (since she asked).  I've certainly seen enough of that attitude here.... move along folks, nothing to see here.

The Abbess, after taking her monastery's website private, appears to be the final action of "case closed" to the public except to her supporters and financiers.  The monastery posted documents that raised questions about the nuns and hieromonks canonical release from their Greek monastery.  Then in this public document, the writer suggests that anything noncanonical should be forgiven:

Quote
If there is anything that Metropolitan Jonah or Elder Dionysios did that was supposedly “noncanonical”, then it was unintentional and without deceit or guile, done for the betterment of relations between the OCA and the Elder Dionysios and his venerable monasteries, done in Christian love—not in deception—for the holy purpose of establishing monasteries in America.  I am willing to give our Metropolitan the benefit of the doubt that he and Elder Dionysios may not have followed, to the letter, protocol in matters of inter-jurisdictional transfers.  That is to be forgiven, is it not?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PrincessMommy on September 09, 2012, 04:49:35 PM
People often ask for things they don't really want.  As in:

"Be honest... does this dress make me look fat?"

Her ends says that she has given herself emotional justification not to change her mind.  I'm not going to engage in a useless activity.  The introduction may say "I'm open," but the conclusion says, "Case closed."

I think the feedback she's really looking for is agreement.  Having read through it, I can't give her that.

You should email her with those corrections.  She's asked for feedback.


I suspect there are people on both sides who saying "case closed".   ;)  This is why I encourage EVERYONE to engage her (since she asked).  I've certainly seen enough of that attitude here.... move along folks, nothing to see here.

I know of two people who have emailed her to give her feedback and corrections (myself being one) and she's been quite open.  

I am not going to engage with a person who says the following:

"The SMPAC wrote on the first page of their Memorandum:  “In order to generate a readable document in a timely manner, citations and footnotes are not included; however, all of the facts and observations contained herein are based on documentary evidence available in the OCA Chancery and/or on verifiable, trustworthy statements.” This is unacceptable for an official church document.  Assertions of the nature made within the Memorandum must be verifiable."

The highlighted sentences are evidence of a mindset that will not tolerate dissent. Just who is she to think that she is competent to determine the proper quality of an official church document? Even if she had the qualifications to make such a judgment, why does she not lay out her argument in a manner that befits discussion an official church document--that is, with canonical citations and historical arguments? Something is quite rotten here and I suspect that she may be yet another incarnation of Metropolitan Jonah's eminence grise, Father Joseph Fester.

I believe this letter is nothing but yet another attempt to reinstate Metropolitan Jonah as Primate. It is part of a campaign in which the main players are the Monomakhos Blog and regular, but shadowy characters, who have Internet names like Helga, Nikos, Um, etc. I also suspect that our own Princess Mommy is somehow associated with these characters. Why else would she so ever innocently put on the table such a propaganda document?

sorry - I don't know those people.  At least I don't think I know them.   I actually found the document because a friend forwarded it to me and they found it on AIO.org.  I would rather see OCA clean its house more than I'd like to Met. JONAH reinstated.  Having him reinstated is a long-shot in the best of circumstances.  I would like to see him treated with some respect.  I think he'd make a great abbot of a monastery again.

I'm sorry if you guys don't like more information forwarded to you on this subject.  I was under the impression that this was a good place to look at all sides of an issue.  Apparently I'm wrong.

Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PrincessMommy on September 09, 2012, 04:52:27 PM
People often ask for things they don't really want.  As in:

"Be honest... does this dress make me look fat?"

Her ends says that she has given herself emotional justification not to change her mind.  I'm not going to engage in a useless activity.  The introduction may say "I'm open," but the conclusion says, "Case closed."

I think the feedback she's really looking for is agreement.  Having read through it, I can't give her that.

You should email her with those corrections.  She's asked for feedback.


I suspect there are people on both sides who saying "case closed".   ;)  This is why I encourage EVERYONE to engage her (since she asked).  I've certainly seen enough of that attitude here.... move along folks, nothing to see here.

The Abbess, after taking her monastery's website private, appears to be the final action of "case closed" to the public except to her supporters and financiers.  The monastery posted documents that raised questions about the nuns and hieromonks canonical release from their Greek monastery.  Then in this public document, the writer suggests that anything noncanonical should be forgiven:

Quote
If there is anything that Metropolitan Jonah or Elder Dionysios did that was supposedly “noncanonical”, then it was unintentional and without deceit or guile, done for the betterment of relations between the OCA and the Elder Dionysios and his venerable monasteries, done in Christian love—not in deception—for the holy purpose of establishing monasteries in America.  I am willing to give our Metropolitan the benefit of the doubt that he and Elder Dionysios may not have followed, to the letter, protocol in matters of inter-jurisdictional transfers.  That is to be forgiven, is it not?

She seems to be okay with it... but apparently the nuns were not.  At least that is how I read Abbess A. posts before they went private.  I didn't know that... anyone know why she did it?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: witega on September 09, 2012, 04:57:03 PM
I'm sorry if you guys don't like more information forwarded to you on this subject. 

Some people, particularly here, are only interested in 'more information' when it jibes with what they have already decided.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PrincessMommy on September 09, 2012, 05:08:10 PM
I'm sorry if you guys don't like more information forwarded to you on this subject. 

Some people, particularly here, are only interested in 'more information' when it jibes with what they have already decided.

yes, and the same can be said about Monomokhos.   That's why I'm particularly disappointed that people here on OC.net, who caught some flaws in the document, are unwilling to contact her to tell her so. 
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: SolEX01 on September 09, 2012, 05:35:45 PM
I'm sorry if you guys don't like more information forwarded to you on this subject.

Some people, particularly here, are only interested in 'more information' when it jibes with what they have already decided.

yes, and the same can be said about Monomokhos.   That's why I'm particularly disappointed that people here on OC.net, who caught some flaws in the document, are unwilling to contact her to tell her so.  

The OCA needs to put its history with the Greek nuns and hieromonks in the past tense.  The monastics are on US soil; most of them are US citizens.  They wish to remain private as evident by their private web blog.  They have a lot of friends at St. Nicholas in Washington, DC and elsewhere.  Why does this individual need our help when she already has all the answers and her mind is made up that she supports Met. Jonah and the nuns and the hieromonks?

The OCA has a lot of issues with its Hierarchy and thought that Greek monastics would "save the day."  Now the Greek monastics have the last laugh with private web blogs.  The OCA couldn't handle one drunk hieromonk who received preferential (almost diplomatic-like) treatment by the Washington, DC police department and judicial system.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Basil 320 on September 09, 2012, 05:47:31 PM
I'm sorry if you guys don't like more information forwarded to you on this subject.

Some people, particularly here, are only interested in 'more information' when it jibes with what they have already decided.

yes, and the same can be said about Monomokhos.   That's why I'm particularly disappointed that people here on OC.net, who caught some flaws in the document, are unwilling to contact her to tell her so.  

The OCA needs to put its history with the Greek nuns and hieromonks in the past tense.  The monastics are on US soil; most of them are US citizens.  They wish to remain private as evident by their private web blog.  They have a lot of friends at St. Nicholas in Washington, DC and elsewhere.  Why does this individual need our help when she already has all the answers and her mind is made up that she supports Met. Jonah and the nuns and the hieromonks?

The OCA has a lot of issues with its Hierarchy and thought that Greek monastics would "save the day."  Now the Greek monastics have the last laugh with private web blogs.  The OCA couldn't handle one drunk hieromonk who received preferential (almost diplomatic-like) treatment by the Washington, DC police department and judicial system.

A monastery, like any Eastern Orthodox institution, such as a parish church, must be under a hierarch.  This monastery's move to a private website is not a productive indication that it is moving in the direction of securing canonical sanction.  What a waste.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Basil 320 on September 09, 2012, 06:08:38 PM
People often ask for things they don't really want.  As in:

"Be honest... does this dress make me look fat?"

Her ends says that she has given herself emotional justification not to change her mind.  I'm not going to engage in a useless activity.  The introduction may say "I'm open," but the conclusion says, "Case closed."

I think the feedback she's really looking for is agreement.  Having read through it, I can't give her that.

You should email her with those corrections.  She's asked for feedback.


I suspect there are people on both sides who saying "case closed".   ;)  This is why I encourage EVERYONE to engage her (since she asked).  I've certainly seen enough of that attitude here.... move along folks, nothing to see here.

I know of two people who have emailed her to give her feedback and corrections (myself being one) and she's been quite open.  

I am not going to engage with a person who says the following:

"The SMPAC wrote on the first page of their Memorandum:  “In order to generate a readable document in a timely manner, citations and footnotes are not included; however, all of the facts and observations contained herein are based on documentary evidence available in the OCA Chancery and/or on verifiable, trustworthy statements.” This is unacceptable for an official church document.  Assertions of the nature made within the Memorandum must be verifiable."

The highlighted sentences are evidence of a mindset that will not tolerate dissent. Just who is she to think that she is competent to determine the proper quality of an official church document? Even if she had the qualifications to make such a judgment, why does she not lay out her argument in a manner that befits discussion an official church document--that is, with canonical citations and historical arguments? Something is quite rotten here and I suspect that she may be yet another incarnation of Metropolitan Jonah's eminence grise, Father Joseph Fester.

I believe this letter is nothing but yet another attempt to reinstate Metropolitan Jonah as Primate. It is part of a campaign in which the main players are the Monomakhos Blog and regular, but shadowy characters, who have Internet names like Helga, Nikos, Um, etc. I also suspect that our own Princess Mommy is somehow associated with these characters. Why else would she so ever innocently put on the table such a propaganda document?

I agree with most of what is said in this post, but I disagree with the allegation of the intentions of posting the "Fevronia Letter."  It is information relative to the issue.  The fact that the entire Holy Synod unanimously acted to force the "First Among Them" to resign, indicates an apparently necessary action, however, documentation that has surfaced since, including the Holy Synod's explanation, do not support the forced resignation in my opinion.  Therefore, additional documentation assists in an understanding of what happened, if for no other reason than to possibly assist in avoiding the election of a failing primate, in any church, in the future.  I remain compelled to accept the Synod's action, but do not see the justification for it as yet.  In the end, the "Fevronia Letter" offers nothing to enable a better understanding, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PeterTheAleut on September 09, 2012, 07:03:42 PM
I'm sorry if you guys don't like more information forwarded to you on this subject. 

Some people, particularly here, are only interested in 'more information' when it jibes with what they have already decided.

yes, and the same can be said about Monomokhos.   That's why I'm particularly disappointed that people here on OC.net, who caught some flaws in the document, are unwilling to contact her to tell her so. 
Where do you get that idea?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PrincessMommy on September 09, 2012, 07:42:16 PM
I'm sorry if you guys don't like more information forwarded to you on this subject.

Some people, particularly here, are only interested in 'more information' when it jibes with what they have already decided.

yes, and the same can be said about Monomokhos.   That's why I'm particularly disappointed that people here on OC.net, who caught some flaws in the document, are unwilling to contact her to tell her so.  
Where do you get that idea?
'

I assume you are referring to what I highlighted above, if not please correct me:

This is why (I've highlighted them too:)

People often ask for things they don't really want.  As in:

"Be honest... does this dress make me look fat?"

Her ends says that she has given herself emotional justification not to change her mind.  I'm not going to engage in a useless activity.  The introduction may say "I'm open," but the conclusion says, "Case closed."

I think the feedback she's really looking for is agreement.  Having read through it, I can't give her that.

You should email her with those corrections.  She's asked for feedback.


I suspect there are people on both sides who saying "case closed".   ;)  This is why I encourage EVERYONE to engage her (since she asked).  I've certainly seen enough of that attitude here.... move along folks, nothing to see here.

I know of two people who have emailed her to give her feedback and corrections (myself being one) and she's been quite open.  

I am not going to engage with a person who says the following:

"The SMPAC wrote on the first page of their Memorandum:  “In order to generate a readable document in a timely manner, citations and footnotes are not included; however, all of the facts and observations contained herein are based on documentary evidence available in the OCA Chancery and/or on verifiable, trustworthy statements.” This is unacceptable for an official church document.  Assertions of the nature made within the Memorandum must be verifiable."

The highlighted sentences are evidence of a mindset that will not tolerate dissent. Just who is she to think that she is competent to determine the proper quality of an official church document? Even if she had the qualifications to make such a judgment, why does she not lay out her argument in a manner that befits discussion an official church document--that is, with canonical citations and historical arguments? Something is quite rotten here and I suspect that she may be yet another incarnation of Metropolitan Jonah's eminence grise, Father Joseph Fester.

I believe this letter is nothing but yet another attempt to reinstate Metropolitan Jonah as Primate. It is part of a campaign in which the main players are the Monomakhos Blog and regular, but shadowy characters, who have Internet names like Helga, Nikos, Um, etc. I also suspect that our own Princess Mommy is somehow associated with these characters. Why else would she so ever innocently put on the table such a propaganda document?

Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PeterTheAleut on September 09, 2012, 08:44:18 PM
I'm sorry if you guys don't like more information forwarded to you on this subject.

Some people, particularly here, are only interested in 'more information' when it jibes with what they have already decided.

yes, and the same can be said about Monomokhos.   That's why I'm particularly disappointed that people here on OC.net, who caught some flaws in the document, are unwilling to contact her to tell her so.  
Where do you get that idea?
'

I assume you are referring to what I highlighted above, if not please correct me:

This is why (I've highlighted them too:)

People often ask for things they don't really want.  As in:

"Be honest... does this dress make me look fat?"

Her ends says that she has given herself emotional justification not to change her mind.  I'm not going to engage in a useless activity.  The introduction may say "I'm open," but the conclusion says, "Case closed."

I think the feedback she's really looking for is agreement.  Having read through it, I can't give her that.

You should email her with those corrections.  She's asked for feedback.


I suspect there are people on both sides who saying "case closed".   ;)  This is why I encourage EVERYONE to engage her (since she asked).  I've certainly seen enough of that attitude here.... move along folks, nothing to see here.

I know of two people who have emailed her to give her feedback and corrections (myself being one) and she's been quite open.  

I am not going to engage with a person who says the following:

"The SMPAC wrote on the first page of their Memorandum:  “In order to generate a readable document in a timely manner, citations and footnotes are not included; however, all of the facts and observations contained herein are based on documentary evidence available in the OCA Chancery and/or on verifiable, trustworthy statements.” This is unacceptable for an official church document.  Assertions of the nature made within the Memorandum must be verifiable."

The highlighted sentences are evidence of a mindset that will not tolerate dissent. Just who is she to think that she is competent to determine the proper quality of an official church document? Even if she had the qualifications to make such a judgment, why does she not lay out her argument in a manner that befits discussion an official church document--that is, with canonical citations and historical arguments? Something is quite rotten here and I suspect that she may be yet another incarnation of Metropolitan Jonah's eminence grise, Father Joseph Fester.

I believe this letter is nothing but yet another attempt to reinstate Metropolitan Jonah as Primate. It is part of a campaign in which the main players are the Monomakhos Blog and regular, but shadowy characters, who have Internet names like Helga, Nikos, Um, etc. I also suspect that our own Princess Mommy is somehow associated with these characters. Why else would she so ever innocently put on the table such a propaganda document?


You're disappointed that two people have expressed their lack of desire to correct Ms. Fevronia's factual errors? ??? On last count, there are well more than 200 people who post here regularly, and you're disappointed that less than 1% of them have stated their unwillingness to engage her?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: podkarpatska on September 10, 2012, 11:43:28 AM
FWIW: Just on a hunch, I googled the word 'fevronia' and, lo and behold an 11th century Russian tale popped up: "The Tale of Peter and Fevronia of Murom"  on wikipedia

"Apanage prince Paul (Russian: Павел) is disturbed, as a guileful snake has gotten into the habit of visiting his wife disguising himself as the prince. His wife finds out that the only man who can defeat the snake with a magiс sword is Paul's brother, Peter (Russian: Пётр). Peter defeats the snake, but its blood spills on him and his body is covered with aching scabs. No doctors can help, but suddenly Peter hears of Fevronia (Russian: Феврония), a wise young peasant maiden, who promises to heal him. As a reward she wants to marry Peter. When healed, he does not keep his promise and instead sends rich gifts to Fevronia. However, soon Peter's body is again covered with scabs. Fevronia heals him again and this time they get married. Prince Paul soon dies and Peter and Fevronia come to reign in Murom. The boyars are unhappy to have a peasant woman for princess, and they ask Fevronia to leave the city taking with her whatever riches she wants. Fevronia agrees, asking them to let her choose just one thing. The boyars find out that the wise maiden's wish was to only take her husband, so Peter and Fevronia leave Murom together. The city remains without a prince. The boyars start strifes over the reign, Murom is in havoc, and finally Peter and Fevronia are asked to return. They reign wisely and happily until their last days, which they spend in monasteries. They know they will die on the same day and ask to be buried in the same grave."

Now this led me to a proper hagiography on pravmir: http://www.pravmir.com/life-of-the-saints-peter-and-fevronia-of-murom/

(I have to get a good-natured dig in here. If one of our Greek friends posted under a pen name derived from an 11th century Hellenistic teaching hagiography to make a point, SOME of our OCA friends would be in a lather about ethno-centrism and so on...But in the American Church it's OK to borrow from Russian sources of the middle ages without an explanation. Oh well.... )

On a serious note though, one has to beware in analogizing contemporary situations to the lives of the Saints where one really does not know all of the facts about the modern situation - you really have to tred carefully and draw out the proper distinctions rather than simply being coy. Not everyone plays the assigned role of villain or 'boyar' or the role of saint.....
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: FatherGiryus on September 10, 2012, 12:44:50 PM
Good catch.  Again, operating with a pen name... even less incentive to enter into 'corrective exchange.'  I already have enough fictional characters in my life...

FWIW: Just on a hunch, I googled the word 'fevronia' and, lo and behold an 11th century Russian tale popped up: "The Tale of Peter and Fevronia of Murom"  on wikipedia

"Apanage prince Paul (Russian: Павел) is disturbed, as a guileful snake has gotten into the habit of visiting his wife disguising himself as the prince. His wife finds out that the only man who can defeat the snake with a magiс sword is Paul's brother, Peter (Russian: Пётр). Peter defeats the snake, but its blood spills on him and his body is covered with aching scabs. No doctors can help, but suddenly Peter hears of Fevronia (Russian: Феврония), a wise young peasant maiden, who promises to heal him. As a reward she wants to marry Peter. When healed, he does not keep his promise and instead sends rich gifts to Fevronia. However, soon Peter's body is again covered with scabs. Fevronia heals him again and this time they get married. Prince Paul soon dies and Peter and Fevronia come to reign in Murom. The boyars are unhappy to have a peasant woman for princess, and they ask Fevronia to leave the city taking with her whatever riches she wants. Fevronia agrees, asking them to let her choose just one thing. The boyars find out that the wise maiden's wish was to only take her husband, so Peter and Fevronia leave Murom together. The city remains without a prince. The boyars start strifes over the reign, Murom is in havoc, and finally Peter and Fevronia are asked to return. They reign wisely and happily until their last days, which they spend in monasteries. They know they will die on the same day and ask to be buried in the same grave."

Now this led me to a proper hagiography on pravmir: http://www.pravmir.com/life-of-the-saints-peter-and-fevronia-of-murom/

(I have to get a good-natured dig in here. If one of our Greek friends posted under a pen name derived from an 11th century Hellenistic teaching hagiography to make a point, SOME of our OCA friends would be in a lather about ethno-centrism and so on...But in the American Church it's OK to borrow from Russian sources of the middle ages without an explanation. Oh well.... )

On a serious note though, one has to beware in analogizing contemporary situations to the lives of the Saints where one really does not know all of the facts about the modern situation - you really have to tred carefully and draw out the proper distinctions rather than simply being coy. Not everyone plays the assigned role of villain or 'boyar' or the role of saint.....
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PeterTheAleut on September 10, 2012, 05:17:35 PM
FWIW: Just on a hunch, I googled the word 'fevronia' and, lo and behold an 11th century Russian tale popped up: "The Tale of Peter and Fevronia of Murom"  on wikipedia

"Apanage prince Paul (Russian: Павел) is disturbed, as a guileful snake has gotten into the habit of visiting his wife disguising himself as the prince. His wife finds out that the only man who can defeat the snake with a magiс sword is Paul's brother, Peter (Russian: Пётр). Peter defeats the snake, but its blood spills on him and his body is covered with aching scabs. No doctors can help, but suddenly Peter hears of Fevronia (Russian: Феврония), a wise young peasant maiden, who promises to heal him. As a reward she wants to marry Peter. When healed, he does not keep his promise and instead sends rich gifts to Fevronia. However, soon Peter's body is again covered with scabs. Fevronia heals him again and this time they get married. Prince Paul soon dies and Peter and Fevronia come to reign in Murom. The boyars are unhappy to have a peasant woman for princess, and they ask Fevronia to leave the city taking with her whatever riches she wants. Fevronia agrees, asking them to let her choose just one thing. The boyars find out that the wise maiden's wish was to only take her husband, so Peter and Fevronia leave Murom together. The city remains without a prince. The boyars start strifes over the reign, Murom is in havoc, and finally Peter and Fevronia are asked to return. They reign wisely and happily until their last days, which they spend in monasteries. They know they will die on the same day and ask to be buried in the same grave."

Now this led me to a proper hagiography on pravmir: http://www.pravmir.com/life-of-the-saints-peter-and-fevronia-of-murom/

(I have to get a good-natured dig in here. If one of our Greek friends posted under a pen name derived from an 11th century Hellenistic teaching hagiography to make a point, SOME of our OCA friends would be in a lather about ethno-centrism and so on...But in the American Church it's OK to borrow from Russian sources of the middle ages without an explanation. Oh well.... )

On a serious note though, one has to beware in analogizing contemporary situations to the lives of the Saints where one really does not know all of the facts about the modern situation - you really have to tred carefully and draw out the proper distinctions rather than simply being coy. Not everyone plays the assigned role of villain or 'boyar' or the role of saint.....
I do feel constrained by a sense of fairness, however, to point out the fallacy in your logic. Just because a name is found in ancient folklore or hagiography does not mean that the name cannot be someone's real name today.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: pensateomnia on September 10, 2012, 07:56:04 PM
I know women named Fevronia. Greeks, actually.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: podkarpatska on September 10, 2012, 11:47:32 PM
FWIW: Just on a hunch, I googled the word 'fevronia' and, lo and behold an 11th century Russian tale popped up: "The Tale of Peter and Fevronia of Murom"  on wikipedia

"Apanage prince Paul (Russian: Павел) is disturbed, as a guileful snake has gotten into the habit of visiting his wife disguising himself as the prince. His wife finds out that the only man who can defeat the snake with a magiс sword is Paul's brother, Peter (Russian: Пётр). Peter defeats the snake, but its blood spills on him and his body is covered with aching scabs. No doctors can help, but suddenly Peter hears of Fevronia (Russian: Феврония), a wise young peasant maiden, who promises to heal him. As a reward she wants to marry Peter. When healed, he does not keep his promise and instead sends rich gifts to Fevronia. However, soon Peter's body is again covered with scabs. Fevronia heals him again and this time they get married. Prince Paul soon dies and Peter and Fevronia come to reign in Murom. The boyars are unhappy to have a peasant woman for princess, and they ask Fevronia to leave the city taking with her whatever riches she wants. Fevronia agrees, asking them to let her choose just one thing. The boyars find out that the wise maiden's wish was to only take her husband, so Peter and Fevronia leave Murom together. The city remains without a prince. The boyars start strifes over the reign, Murom is in havoc, and finally Peter and Fevronia are asked to return. They reign wisely and happily until their last days, which they spend in monasteries. They know they will die on the same day and ask to be buried in the same grave."

Now this led me to a proper hagiography on pravmir: http://www.pravmir.com/life-of-the-saints-peter-and-fevronia-of-murom/

(I have to get a good-natured dig in here. If one of our Greek friends posted under a pen name derived from an 11th century Hellenistic teaching hagiography to make a point, SOME of our OCA friends would be in a lather about ethno-centrism and so on...But in the American Church it's OK to borrow from Russian sources of the middle ages without an explanation. Oh well.... )

On a serious note though, one has to beware in analogizing contemporary situations to the lives of the Saints where one really does not know all of the facts about the modern situation - you really have to tred carefully and draw out the proper distinctions rather than simply being coy. Not everyone plays the assigned role of villain or 'boyar' or the role of saint.....
I do feel constrained by a sense of fairness, however, to point out the fallacy in your logic. Just because a name is found in ancient folklore or hagiography does not mean that the name cannot be someone's real name today.

My point was not whether Fevronia could or could not be a woman's given name or Saint's name. Of course it can be so. I don't doubt that one could certainly be named Fevronia - if my memory is correct SS. Peter and Fevronia of this hagiography are highly regarded in Russia as patrons of the family.

The name and the moral of the hagiography vis-a-vis the author's point of view regarding the current OCA situation is tough to ignore. If you believe that the Metropolitan was the victim of a cabal bent on unjustly removing him, the fable fits. The analogy of the boyars representing the Synod and Peter representing the Metropolitan and the DC nuns being the Fevronia of the story is just too obvious  - at least to me.

I don't really care if the origin is Greek, Slavic or whatever - my point remains - assigning the roles of saints to contemporary figures in an ongoing debate CAN be problematic and distinguishing the 'villains' from the 'heroes' is often tough to ferret out as a situation is unfolding. I am sure that one who takes a position opposed to the blogger in question could find a hagiography that matches their own perception of the events. It is neither here nor there, but I think it is worth noting, that's all.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Iconodule on September 10, 2012, 11:58:39 PM
If you have the time, the life of SS. Peter and Fevronia is well worth the read. It is a wonderful meeting of hagiography and Russian fairy tale tradition.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Seraphim98 on September 11, 2012, 12:31:28 AM
Quote
I believe this letter is nothing but yet another attempt to reinstate Metropolitan Jonah as Primate.

Just speaking for myself, I'm fine with that. I think his reinstatement would be a good thing…assuming he still wants the job. He's got my "axios" if it comes to that.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: podkarpatska on September 11, 2012, 09:10:54 AM
Much as I hate to introduce reality into wistful musings, I suspect that were Met. Jonah to somehow 'resurface' as primate of the OCA, that the OCA would likely find itself truly isolated from the rest of the North American jurisdictions for a variety of reasons - not the least of which would be a real credibility gap and the reality that the hierarchical structure of the OCA would be suspect in that the diocesan Bishops would be weakened and the role of the primate (and the laity responsible for his restoration) elevated. It is difficult to express what I am getting at, but such a restoration would only come upon the collapse of the ability of the remaining Bishops to govern effectively, a lack of future collegiality and conciliarity, a purge of many, if not most, of the current diocesan  Bishops and a likely schism. I realize that from within the OCA, especially among those ardent supporters of the Metropolitan, such a scenario is difficult to envision - but from the outside looking in the restoration of Met. Jonah simply doesn't seem feasible.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: FatherGiryus on September 11, 2012, 11:17:36 AM
I agree with what's you've said here, and would like to add a further issue: the OCA, and to a lesser extent the other jurisdictions for the time being though they will catch up, is stuck between two conflicting paradigms of leadership: a 'democratic' expectation and a 'hierarchical' one.

On the one hand, the OCA has made a great deal about its 'All-American Councils,' Metropolitan Council, 'vetting' episcopal candidates, local (read single-parish) 'customs' etc.  There has been plenty of talk about conciliarity, transparency, accountability, and the like as American virtues and necessary ingredients to an American church.

Yet, our tradition outlines a very different: the canons describe a system where almost all the charisms and responsibilities fall with the hierarchy, who are self-selecting as a group and vested with total power without lay involvement. 

For its history, and the history of many jurisdictions here in the States and Canada, we have oscillated back and forth between these two models.  Bishops will talk conciliarity and sharing one moment, then, when it suits them, go back in the other direction and claim hierarchical privilege.  Then we read the fine print: such talk about committees and commissions is merely advisory in nature.  The ultimate decisions rest with the hierarchs, and they can take or leave your demands based on how far they think they can go in getting what they want before people get annoyed and either stop writing checks or stay home altogether.

This is not to say that all bishops act this way, and I am singling out no particular bishop, but we can see how this schizophrenia has played out over the years.

This makes turnovers in leadership particularly dangerous: when you think of the OCA's woes, recall as well Archbishop Spyridon's tenure.  Think also about the angstful whispers amongst Antiochians about who the next metropolitan will be after the passing of Metropolitan Phillip.  I know some clergy who have threatened to leave the Archdiocese if their 'candidate' doesn't get the nod.  My response has always been to go ahead and leave now... you just don't get how the Church operates.

Because of this conflicting set of expectations, the hierarch in America is at a disadvantage to his overseas brethren.  He must be adept at balancing these two modes of management, not appearing to tyrannical while maintaining his canonical duties.  It is pretty clear that not every man who would be a bishop can strike this equilibrium and maintain it.

Of course, if one falls to one side or the other, no matter if one has really been all that dictatorial or indicisive, there will be a whole chorus of people screaming for blood.  "Don't you know we are supposed to like him... why is he making us hate him by not fulfilling all our dreams about a perfect bishop?"  Unfortunately, there are enough examples of bishops who quite literally 'crash and burn' to make such demands seem quite reasonable.

In the end, a bishop might be a disappointment, but that's not enough for him to be removed.  He must violate the canons, because it is the canonical tradition that governs the Church.  Same is true of priests who cannot be deposed without canonical cause or their own cooperation.

I think people in the OCA, if they want the OCA to survive, need to lower their expectations of their hierarchs, and the rest of us would do well to follow suit.  We don't need a superhero in a sakkos, we need a moral man.  We don't need the best speechwriters and go-getters, we need men who earnestly seek God.  We don't even need a man who makes us look good or feel important, we need a man who will make reasonable decisions and take care of his assigned tasks.

In the conversations about Metropolitan Jonah, I have seen so many of these extreme tendencies.  As I've said, one can understand where they come from when you've had such 'winners' as Metropolitan Theodosius, Bishop Tikhon (Fitzgerald, of 'Love +BT' fame), and Bishop Nikolai (Soraich).  They've been as embarrassing as they were ineffective.  I know how much OCA folks want to feel better about their hierarchs.  Thus, they placed a lot of expectations on Metropolitan Jonah, who was the people's choice.  They look to his ecumenical presentations and suddenly they did not feel so backward and neglected.

The disappointment comes with the discovery that the things that he was really good at were not really the things he needed to do.  He needed to be an astute manager and interpreter of the canons, leading his Synod through the management of the community.  He was expectated to maintain good relations with the various hierarchs who have a stake in the country.  Those things did not happen.

We should all pray that the next Metropolitan of the OCA is not glamorous or wonderful or brilliant or even publicly empathetic, but that he is a God-fearing man who can manage the day-to-day affairs of a church that he loves and people that he cares for.


Much as I hate to introduce reality into wistful musings, I suspect that were Met. Jonah to somehow 'resurface' as primate of the OCA, that the OCA would likely find itself truly isolated from the rest of the North American jurisdictions for a variety of reasons - not the least of which would be a real credibility gap and the reality that the hierarchical structure of the OCA would be suspect in that the diocesan Bishops would be weakened and the role of the primate (and the laity responsible for his restoration) elevated. It is difficult to express what I am getting at, but such a restoration would only come upon the collapse of the ability of the remaining Bishops to govern effectively, a lack of future collegiality and conciliarity, a purge of many, if not most, of the current diocesan  Bishops and a likely schism. I realize that from within the OCA, especially among those ardent supporters of the Metropolitan, such a scenario is difficult to envision - but from the outside looking in the restoration of Met. Jonah simply doesn't seem feasible.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Seraphim98 on September 11, 2012, 12:38:43 PM
Quote
I suspect that were Met. Jonah to somehow 'resurface' as primate of the OCA, that the OCA would likely find itself truly isolated from the rest of the North American jurisdictions for a variety of reasons - not the least of which would be a real credibility gap and the reality that the hierarchical structure of the OCA would be suspect in that the diocesan Bishops would be weakened and the role of the primate (and the laity responsible for his restoration) elevated. It is difficult to express what I am getting at, but such a restoration would only come upon the collapse of the ability of the remaining Bishops to govern effectively, a lack of future collegiality and conciliarity, a purge of many, if not most, of the current diocesan  Bishops and a likely schism. I realize that from within the OCA, especially among those ardent supporters of the Metropolitan, such a scenario is difficult to envision - but from the outside looking in the restoration of Met. Jonah simply doesn't seem feasible.

I agree such a move would have its big ripples. It would reflect poorly on the credibility of the Holy Synod as currently constituted. But that, I think would be temporary. It would likely come at the expense of present bishops to govern effectively. It would probably require a purge in order to restore good order and to make conciliarity among the bishops real and effective. I'm not so sure it would lead to schism…it might, but that is the problem of those who would go into schism for reasons that fall short of those severing ties with persistent heresy.

It is also true that the repercussions of such a move might shortly result in the effective dissolution of the OCA as currently constituted.

All in all, none of these strike me as necessarily bad things in and of themselves. Difficult and perhaps painful organizationally speaking, but not necessarily bad. The way forward to Orthodox unity in North American may be without the current institution and hierarchy of the present OCA.   Where I would share a concern is the risk of precedent setting of the vox populi vox Dei sort…that way there be dragons.

However, if Met. Jonah is restored; if there is a purge of bad actors from the synod and from Syosset; if under Met. Jonah's leadership better bishops are found/consecrated and enthroned where needed and a more credible Holy Synod is constituted, then I think things will go better for us. In the end in order for healing, it still may prove best to surrender our tomos and take a couple of steps back in order to take more steps forward…and someone like Met. Jonah and likeminded bishops could oversee the process successfully if they think it wise to undertake.  Either way, I think his restoration is the right thing to do…though as noted it is an unlikely proposition at this point…as welcome as it would be should God grant it occur.

Short of that, I would agree with Fr. Giryus…lower our expectations and be satisfied with a godly man who is a capable administrator.

Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: primuspilus on September 11, 2012, 12:42:49 PM
I think the Holy Synod should approach the GOA, Antioch, or the Russians, join, and be one step closer to an American Orthodox Church and be done with it.

After all, by appointing another hierarch, they're simply delaying the inevitable anyways.

PP
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Seraphim98 on September 11, 2012, 12:46:01 PM
If it comes to that I vote for the Russians, either ROCOR or the MP…though I think ROCOR is the more natural choice, being our birth sister on this continent.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: primuspilus on September 11, 2012, 12:53:42 PM
If it comes to that I vote for the Russians, either ROCOR or the MP…though I think ROCOR is the more natural choice, being our birth sister on this continent.
Any are preferable to me. Of course Im not OCA so my opinion doesn't really matter a whole lot.

PP
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Manalive on September 11, 2012, 01:15:44 PM
If it comes to that I vote for the Russians, either ROCOR or the MP…though I think ROCOR is the more natural choice, being our birth sister on this continent.

ROCOR is under the MP ever since the Act of Canonical Communion 5 years ago. We're semi-autonomous. It would be great if the OCA went back under the MP. We'd take a good step in the right direction of uniting under a single jurisdiction.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Schultz on September 11, 2012, 01:25:03 PM
Surrending the Tomos, whatever that would entail, would cause schism, plain and simple.  Take some time to talk to the people whose parents and/or grandparents fought for it.  They'll bolt.  Period.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: podkarpatska on September 11, 2012, 01:33:31 PM
Surrending the Tomos, whatever that would entail, would cause schism, plain and simple.  Take some time to talk to the people whose parents and/or grandparents fought for it.  They'll bolt.  Period.

This is indeed a difficult situation and one without a clearly identifiable 'best option.' I do want to clarify one thing - while my immediate family has been a part of  ACROD since its establishment, many of my relatives were part of the old Metropolia,and were  included among the founders and initial followers of St. Alexis at St. Mary's in Minneapolis, SS. Peter and Paul on the east side of Buffalo, NY, Assumption of the Virgin, Frackville, PA and elsewhere in the old 'rust belt.' Their descendants remain part of the OCA. I can recall my great uncles and 'Tetas' who would no doubt be very frightened by the turmoil in their beloved Church but who would be resolute in telling their children and grandchildren to be patient, to pray and to accept God's will. They endured much, suffered greatly for their choices and survived.

I am not sure if 'surrendering the Tomos' would make them 'bolt', but coming under the EP or the Antiochians likely would. Hence, I truly believe that cooler heads will prevail and this too shall pass.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on September 11, 2012, 01:43:01 PM
I agree with what's you've said here, and would like to add a further issue: the OCA, and to a lesser extent the other jurisdictions for the time being though they will catch up, is stuck between two conflicting paradigms of leadership: a 'democratic' expectation and a 'hierarchical' one.

On the one hand, the OCA has made a great deal about its 'All-American Councils,' Metropolitan Council, 'vetting' episcopal candidates, local (read single-parish) 'customs' etc.  There has been plenty of talk about conciliarity, transparency, accountability, and the like as American virtues and necessary ingredients to an American church.

Yet, our tradition outlines a very different: the canons describe a system where almost all the charisms and responsibilities fall with the hierarchy, who are self-selecting as a group and vested with total power without lay involvement.  

For its history, and the history of many jurisdictions here in the States and Canada, we have oscillated back and forth between these two models.  Bishops will talk conciliarity and sharing one moment, then, when it suits them, go back in the other direction and claim hierarchical privilege.  Then we read the fine print: such talk about committees and commissions is merely advisory in nature.  The ultimate decisions rest with the hierarchs, and they can take or leave your demands based on how far they think they can go in getting what they want before people get annoyed and either stop writing checks or stay home altogether.

This is not to say that all bishops act this way, and I am singling out no particular bishop, but we can see how this schizophrenia has played out over the years.

This makes turnovers in leadership particularly dangerous: when you think of the OCA's woes, recall as well Archbishop Spyridon's tenure.  Think also about the angstful whispers amongst Antiochians about who the next metropolitan will be after the passing of Metropolitan Phillip.  I know some clergy who have threatened to leave the Archdiocese if their 'candidate' doesn't get the nod.  My response has always been to go ahead and leave now... you just don't get how the Church operates.

Because of this conflicting set of expectations, the hierarch in America is at a disadvantage to his overseas brethren.  He must be adept at balancing these two modes of management, not appearing to tyrannical while maintaining his canonical duties.  It is pretty clear that not every man who would be a bishop can strike this equilibrium and maintain it.

Of course, if one falls to one side or the other, no matter if one has really been all that dictatorial or indicisive, there will be a whole chorus of people screaming for blood.  "Don't you know we are supposed to like him... why is he making us hate him by not fulfilling all our dreams about a perfect bishop?"  Unfortunately, there are enough examples of bishops who quite literally 'crash and burn' to make such demands seem quite reasonable.

In the end, a bishop might be a disappointment, but that's not enough for him to be removed.  He must violate the canons, because it is the canonical tradition that governs the Church.  Same is true of priests who cannot be deposed without canonical cause or their own cooperation.

I think people in the OCA, if they want the OCA to survive, need to lower their expectations of their hierarchs, and the rest of us would do well to follow suit.  We don't need a superhero in a sakkos, we need a moral man.  We don't need the best speechwriters and go-getters, we need men who earnestly seek God.  We don't even need a man who makes us look good or feel important, we need a man who will make reasonable decisions and take care of his assigned tasks.

In the conversations about Metropolitan Jonah, I have seen so many of these extreme tendencies.  As I've said, one can understand where they come from when you've had such 'winners' as Metropolitan Theodosius, Bishop Tikhon (Fitzgerald, of 'Love +BT' fame), and Bishop Nikolai (Soraich).  They've been as embarrassing as they were ineffective.  I know how much OCA folks want to feel better about their hierarchs.  Thus, they placed a lot of expectations on Metropolitan Jonah, who was the people's choice.  They look to his ecumenical presentations and suddenly they did not feel so backward and neglected.

The disappointment comes with the discovery that the things that he was really good at were not really the things he needed to do.  He needed to be an astute manager and interpreter of the canons, leading his Synod through the management of the community.  He was expectated to maintain good relations with the various hierarchs who have a stake in the country.  Those things did not happen.

We should all pray that the next Metropolitan of the OCA is not glamorous or wonderful or brilliant or even publicly empathetic, but that he is a God-fearing man who can manage the day-to-day affairs of a church that he loves and people that he cares for.


Much as I hate to introduce reality into wistful musings, I suspect that were Met. Jonah to somehow 'resurface' as primate of the OCA, that the OCA would likely find itself truly isolated from the rest of the North American jurisdictions for a variety of reasons - not the least of which would be a real credibility gap and the reality that the hierarchical structure of the OCA would be suspect in that the diocesan Bishops would be weakened and the role of the primate (and the laity responsible for his restoration) elevated. It is difficult to express what I am getting at, but such a restoration would only come upon the collapse of the ability of the remaining Bishops to govern effectively, a lack of future collegiality and conciliarity, a purge of many, if not most, of the current diocesan  Bishops and a likely schism. I realize that from within the OCA, especially among those ardent supporters of the Metropolitan, such a scenario is difficult to envision - but from the outside looking in the restoration of Met. Jonah simply doesn't seem feasible.

What fascinates me is the fact that there are two outspoken Antiochian Priests who are going to bat for the OCA Synod. Yet few OCA priests are speaking out. Why do certain Antiochians feel the need to butt into matters not concerning them?

We who are/were in the OCA are facing/faced serious problems that the current batch in the OCA Synod have failed to address, especially Bishop Benjamin who is the heir apparent to be the next Metropolitan.

Here in Los Angeles, AB Benjamin's stronghold, communion is given to active unrepentant homosexuals, but heterosexuals who fail and who conceive out of wedlock are penanced for a year to three years because everyone could see the pregnant lady's swollen abdomen. Why the discrepancy?

Is sin in secret somehow less wrong? That is the impression given. I congratulated the woman for having the courage to bring that beautiful child to term as she did not give into pressure to abort, so that she could receive communion without anyone knowing about her problem. In addition, active unrepentant Jewish gays are allowed to sing at the OCA Cathedral in Los Angeles. I sang in that choir, so I know first hand about these matters.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Seraphim98 on September 11, 2012, 01:59:15 PM
Quote
What fascinates me is the fact that there are two outspoken Antiochian Priests who are going to bat for the OCA Synod. Yet few OCA priests are speaking out. Why do certain Antiochians feel the need to butt into matters not concerning them?

But it does concern them just the way the troubles among the Antiochians a couple of years back with the troubles surrounding on again off again status of their bishops. That is to say we are all Orthodox, yet in the present reality of differing jurisdictions on the same continent there is cover to speak more freely without risk of reprisal. Back then OCA priests said things Antiochian priests did not feel safe saying. Perhaps something of a similar nature here.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PrincessMommy on September 11, 2012, 02:02:06 PM
Surrending the Tomos, whatever that would entail, would cause schism, plain and simple.  Take some time to talk to the people whose parents and/or grandparents fought for it.  They'll bolt.  Period.

I agree with this.  Simply going back under the MP or to ROCOR is not an option in some people's minds.   I can't even imagine the distress this would cause at my own parish.  

I also think that podkarpatska brings up a good point, but I'm not sure how it will play out.  I can't imagine any of the Bishops wanting Schism and I know +JONAH does not either.  I don't think all his "ardent" supporters are looking to reinstate him.  Sure most would love to see it happen only under certain circumstances, but I think they're realists...knowing that his reinstatement would be a miracle.  I know many people who love and support +JONAH, they think he's been given a raw deal and been slandered, but they see that the real problem is the SYSTEM is broken and he's probably not the one to fix it.  People are concerned about what is at the core of the OCA and its governing structure (MC being problematic for many people - what other jurisdictions have such a thing?).  I seems that most people will agree that it is flawed.   How many people (on both sides of the argument) said or thought "3 "retired" Primates in less than 10yrs....there's something wrong."   There is concern for the next Metropolitan.  I think +JONAH did see the problems and had a big picture... but he was ham-strung and in the end he's the one who took the fall.  Will anyone be able to wrestle this behemoth and win?   Yes, yes, you nay sayers can tell me "+JONAH brought this all on himself - he's a bad admin... and he wasn't conciliatory enough with his brother-Bishops."  but the next Metropolitan will not be perfect either.  
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: katherineofdixie on September 11, 2012, 02:02:54 PM
I sang in the choir for years, but I didn't notice that it gave me any special insight into the hearts and souls of my fellow choristers.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: podkarpatska on September 11, 2012, 02:03:05 PM
I agree with what's you've said here, and would like to add a further issue: the OCA, and to a lesser extent the other jurisdictions for the time being though they will catch up, is stuck between two conflicting paradigms of leadership: a 'democratic' expectation and a 'hierarchical' one.

On the one hand, the OCA has made a great deal about its 'All-American Councils,' Metropolitan Council, 'vetting' episcopal candidates, local (read single-parish) 'customs' etc.  There has been plenty of talk about conciliarity, transparency, accountability, and the like as American virtues and necessary ingredients to an American church.

Yet, our tradition outlines a very different: the canons describe a system where almost all the charisms and responsibilities fall with the hierarchy, who are self-selecting as a group and vested with total power without lay involvement. 

For its history, and the history of many jurisdictions here in the States and Canada, we have oscillated back and forth between these two models.  Bishops will talk conciliarity and sharing one moment, then, when it suits them, go back in the other direction and claim hierarchical privilege.  Then we read the fine print: such talk about committees and commissions is merely advisory in nature.  The ultimate decisions rest with the hierarchs, and they can take or leave your demands based on how far they think they can go in getting what they want before people get annoyed and either stop writing checks or stay home altogether.

This is not to say that all bishops act this way, and I am singling out no particular bishop, but we can see how this schizophrenia has played out over the years.

This makes turnovers in leadership particularly dangerous: when you think of the OCA's woes, recall as well Archbishop Spyridon's tenure.  Think also about the angstful whispers amongst Antiochians about who the next metropolitan will be after the passing of Metropolitan Phillip.  I know some clergy who have threatened to leave the Archdiocese if their 'candidate' doesn't get the nod.  My response has always been to go ahead and leave now... you just don't get how the Church operates.

Because of this conflicting set of expectations, the hierarch in America is at a disadvantage to his overseas brethren.  He must be adept at balancing these two modes of management, not appearing to tyrannical while maintaining his canonical duties.  It is pretty clear that not every man who would be a bishop can strike this equilibrium and maintain it.

Of course, if one falls to one side or the other, no matter if one has really been all that dictatorial or indicisive, there will be a whole chorus of people screaming for blood.  "Don't you know we are supposed to like him... why is he making us hate him by not fulfilling all our dreams about a perfect bishop?"  Unfortunately, there are enough examples of bishops who quite literally 'crash and burn' to make such demands seem quite reasonable.

In the end, a bishop might be a disappointment, but that's not enough for him to be removed.  He must violate the canons, because it is the canonical tradition that governs the Church.  Same is true of priests who cannot be deposed without canonical cause or their own cooperation.

I think people in the OCA, if they want the OCA to survive, need to lower their expectations of their hierarchs, and the rest of us would do well to follow suit.  We don't need a superhero in a sakkos, we need a moral man.  We don't need the best speechwriters and go-getters, we need men who earnestly seek God.  We don't even need a man who makes us look good or feel important, we need a man who will make reasonable decisions and take care of his assigned tasks.

In the conversations about Metropolitan Jonah, I have seen so many of these extreme tendencies.  As I've said, one can understand where they come from when you've had such 'winners' as Metropolitan Theodosius, Bishop Tikhon (Fitzgerald, of 'Love +BT' fame), and Bishop Nikolai (Soraich).  They've been as embarrassing as they were ineffective.  I know how much OCA folks want to feel better about their hierarchs.  Thus, they placed a lot of expectations on Metropolitan Jonah, who was the people's choice.  They look to his ecumenical presentations and suddenly they did not feel so backward and neglected.

The disappointment comes with the discovery that the things that he was really good at were not really the things he needed to do.  He needed to be an astute manager and interpreter of the canons, leading his Synod through the management of the community.  He was expectated to maintain good relations with the various hierarchs who have a stake in the country.  Those things did not happen.

We should all pray that the next Metropolitan of the OCA is not glamorous or wonderful or brilliant or even publicly empathetic, but that he is a God-fearing man who can manage the day-to-day affairs of a church that he loves and people that he cares for.


Much as I hate to introduce reality into wistful musings, I suspect that were Met. Jonah to somehow 'resurface' as primate of the OCA, that the OCA would likely find itself truly isolated from the rest of the North American jurisdictions for a variety of reasons - not the least of which would be a real credibility gap and the reality that the hierarchical structure of the OCA would be suspect in that the diocesan Bishops would be weakened and the role of the primate (and the laity responsible for his restoration) elevated. It is difficult to express what I am getting at, but such a restoration would only come upon the collapse of the ability of the remaining Bishops to govern effectively, a lack of future collegiality and conciliarity, a purge of many, if not most, of the current diocesan  Bishops and a likely schism. I realize that from within the OCA, especially among those ardent supporters of the Metropolitan, such a scenario is difficult to envision - but from the outside looking in the restoration of Met. Jonah simply doesn't seem feasible.

What fascinates me is the fact that there are two outspoken Antiochian Priests who are going to bat for the OCA Synod. Yet few OCA priests are speaking out. Why do certain Antiochians feel the need to butt into matters not concerning them?

We who are/were in the OCA are facing/faced serious problems that the current batch in the OCA Synod have failed to address, especially Bishop Benjamin who is the heir apparent to be the next Metropolitan.

Here in Los Angeles, AB Benjamin's stronghold, communion is given to active unrepentant homosexuals, but heterosexuals who fail and who conceive out of wedlock are penanced for a year to three years because everyone could see the pregnant lady's swollen abdomen. Why the discrepancy? Is sin in secret somehow less wrong? That is the impression given. I congratulated the woman for having the courage to bring that beautiful child to term, as she not give into pressure to abort, so that she could receive communion without anyone knowing about her problem. In addition, active unrepentant Jewish gays are allowed to sing at the OCA Cathedral in Los Angeles. I sang in that choir, so I know first hand about these matters.

You miss the point - the non OCA  priests are arguing about canonical norms and the perceptions of the rest of North American Orthodoxy- not the particulars of administration within a Diocese. The attempts to redefine 'sobornost' and 'conciliarity' in terms of expanding the role of the laity in the OCA has much to do with an historical overreaction to the failure of the Greek Catholic bishops to protect the rights of their flock in the New World which led to the return to Orthodoxy led at first by St. Alexis which was shortly followed by the administrative chaos after the Russian Revolution. Coupled with a century's worth of congregationalism in terms of parish governance and misconceptions about the concept of 'ownership' of church temporal property and - voila - you have a fine mess of a stew. With few exceptions, disappointment has followed the robes of more than a few of the Bishops of the Metropolia and later the OCA. (Of course the same can be said of other jurisdictions as well but looking in from the outside, the problem seems more defined within the OCA. Perhaps there are just too many Diocesan sees for the real numbers of parishes and faithful - a problem across the board in North America.... I suspect that the problem may lie with the expectations of just what it is that a Bishop is expected to do which may lead to the disappointment as well. One thing that all priests and their families know is this - Bishops, like all men - put their pants on one leg at a time. A klobuk is not equivalent to Superman's mythical  cape....)

I will go out on a limb here and state what I think is the obvious - the OCA is relatively alone in the Orthodox World in terms of local expectations about how a Bishop is to be chosen. The whole concept of 'vetting', pre-election visitation and multiple candidates seems to be more the result of western political influences which crept into the vacuum of Church governance in the New World than it is something which has been 'restored' from ancient times. (My apologies to the late Frs. Meyendorff and Schmemman for oversimplifying their arguments in favor of the OCA's admin model, but can you honestly say that this process has served the OCA well in terms of episcopal selections? The list of failed Bishops would seem to indicate that it has not done so. Look at Alaska - vacant after the 'firing' of Bishop Nicholai who followed another failed Bishop - the late +George (Gula). Frankly, more careful vetting by the OCA's clergy before submitting many of these men - and honest answers from the jursidictions which gave them their releases  might have avoided some of these problems.)

Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on September 11, 2012, 02:03:23 PM
Quote
What fascinates me is the fact that there are two outspoken Antiochian Priests who are going to bat for the OCA Synod. Yet few OCA priests are speaking out. Why do certain Antiochians feel the need to butt into matters not concerning them?

But it does concern them just the way the troubles among the Antiochians a couple of years back with the troubles surrounding on again off again status of their bishops. That is to say we are all Orthodox, yet in the present reality of differing jurisdictions on the same continent there is cover to speak more freely without risk of reprisal. Back then OCA priests said things Antiochian priests did not feel safe saying. Perhaps something of a similar nature here.

The outspoken Antiochian Priests are not in an OCA parish. They do not see the liturgical abuses going on with "Handmaidens" who serve along with the altar servers (cutting the Holy Bread and distributing the wine and antidoron). Neither do they see what the persons in the pews observe. Yes, those of us in the OCA have serious problems with dwindling numbers and few catechumens.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on September 11, 2012, 02:06:10 PM
I sang in the choir for years, but I didn't notice that it gave me any special insight into the hearts and souls of my fellow choristers.

You probably did not have to sing next to a PAID PROFESSIONAL non-Orthodox choir member who would crack jokes during the Gospel, solemn time of communion, etc. These people should not be allowed to sing in a choir, but AB Benjamin allows this.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: katherineofdixie on September 11, 2012, 02:07:35 PM
Quote
What fascinates me is the fact that there are two outspoken Antiochian Priests who are going to bat for the OCA Synod. Yet few OCA priests are speaking out. Why do certain Antiochians feel the need to butt into matters not concerning them?

But it does concern them just the way the troubles among the Antiochians a couple of years back with the troubles surrounding on again off again status of their bishops. That is to say we are all Orthodox, yet in the present reality of differing jurisdictions on the same continent there is cover to speak more freely without risk of reprisal. Back then OCA priests said things Antiochian priests did not feel safe saying. Perhaps something of a similar nature here.

The outspoken Antiochian Priests are not in an OCA parish. They do not see the liturgical abuses going on with "Handmaidens" who serve along with the altar servers (cutting the Holy Bread and distributing the wine and antidoron). Neither do they see what the persons in the pews observe. Yes, those of us in the OCA have serious problems with dwindling numbers and few catechumens.



Not all the OCA. For example, I have never seen any of the liturgical abuses listed. Also not all parishes have dwindling numbers and few catechumens, especially in my diocese, it's quite the reverse.  Though it may be more demographic than anything.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: podkarpatska on September 11, 2012, 02:09:57 PM
I sang in the choir for years, but I didn't notice that it gave me any special insight into the hearts and souls of my fellow choristers.

You probably did not have to sing next to a PAID PROFESSIONAL non-Orthodox choir member who would crack jokes during the Gospel, solemn time of communion, etc. These people should not be allowed to sing in a choir, but AB Benjamin allows this.

A greater use of congregational chant and the reduction of the use of 'concert' pieces and concert choirs would solve that issue!
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on September 11, 2012, 02:11:22 PM
Quote
What fascinates me is the fact that there are two outspoken Antiochian Priests who are going to bat for the OCA Synod. Yet few OCA priests are speaking out. Why do certain Antiochians feel the need to butt into matters not concerning them?

But it does concern them just the way the troubles among the Antiochians a couple of years back with the troubles surrounding on again off again status of their bishops. That is to say we are all Orthodox, yet in the present reality of differing jurisdictions on the same continent there is cover to speak more freely without risk of reprisal. Back then OCA priests said things Antiochian priests did not feel safe saying. Perhaps something of a similar nature here.

The outspoken Antiochian Priests are not in an OCA parish. They do not see the liturgical abuses going on with "Handmaidens" who serve along with the altar servers (cutting the Holy Bread and distributing the wine and antidoron). Neither do they see what the persons in the pews observe. Yes, those of us in the OCA have serious problems with dwindling numbers and few catechumens.



Not all the OCA. For example, I have never seen any of the liturgical abuses listed. Also not all parishes have dwindling numbers and few catechumens, especially in my diocese, it's quite the reverse.  Though it may be more demographic than anything.

Being in Dixieland is heaven compared to the hell of Los Angeles.

Trust me, if AB Benjamin receives the white thingy, it will be the darkest night for the OCA.
Parishes are suffering here in the West.

Whenever AB Benjamin does an infrequent pastoral visit and addresses a "homily" to the parishioners, he addresses the handful of teens, jokes with them, and offers nothing spiritually substantial. It made me cry.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: katherineofdixie on September 11, 2012, 02:14:19 PM

Being in Dixieland is heaven compared to the hell of Los Angeles.


Well, that's certainly true! And not just about the OCA either! ;)
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PrincessMommy on September 11, 2012, 02:17:14 PM

Being in Dixieland is heaven compared to the hell of Los Angeles.


Well, that's certainly true! And not just about the OCA either! ;)

I don't know about that but everything that Maria describes happens at my parish.  I didn't realize that these practices weren't the "norm" until a couple of years ago since it's all I've known.   I'm not in the south either. 

Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on September 11, 2012, 02:23:54 PM

Being in Dixieland is heaven compared to the hell of Los Angeles.


Well, that's certainly true! And not just about the OCA either! ;)

I don't know about that but everything that Maria describes happens at my parish.  I didn't realize that these practices weren't the "norm" until a couple of years ago since it's all I've known.   I'm not in the south either. 



In your OCA parish, are pregnant-out-of-wedlock ladies penanced from one to three years, while the actively openly homosexual couples are allowed to continue receiving communion?

I mean our priest told us that he must guard the chalice and only admit the repentant and those who have recently confessed, but the actively and openly gay and lesbian couples can approach holding hands.

Again, why does Bishop Benjamin allow this travesty? It gives the impression that a woman should secretly abort. Is Holy Communion real? What is going on here?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PrincessMommy on September 11, 2012, 02:31:05 PM

Being in Dixieland is heaven compared to the hell of Los Angeles.


Well, that's certainly true! And not just about the OCA either! ;)

I don't know about that but everything that Maria describes happens at my parish.  I didn't realize that these practices weren't the "norm" until a couple of years ago since it's all I've known.   I'm not in the south either. 



In your OCA parish, are pregnant-out-of-wedlock ladies penanced from one to three years, while the actively openly homosexual couples are allowed to continue receiving communion?

I mean our priest told us that he must guard the chalice and only admit the repentant and those who have recently confessed, but the actively and openly gay and lesbian couples can approach holding hands.

Again, why does Bishop Benjamin allow this travesty? It gives the impression that a woman should secretly abort. Is Holy Communion real? What is going on here?

no, those two things have not happened here.   As far as I know.  Certainly no couples (heterosex. or homosex.) have approached the chalice holding hands.  It's a problem at our Cathedral though, from what I hear from many friends who have left.

I agree, many things surrounding Bishop Benjamin confound me.   I guess because he didn't kill anyone while driving DUI he was permitted to remain a bishop... I dunno how that works.   I'd be surprised if he became the next Metropolitan though.  Seriously, way too much baggage. 
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: FatherGiryus on September 11, 2012, 04:12:51 PM
Dear Maria,

I don't know how many OCA priests are on this board.  I can only say this: I have attended OCA parishes (as a layman and served occasionally as a priest), went to an OCA seminary, and have very close friends in the OCA.  perhaps I am entitled to care... maybe just a little bit?  Please, may I?

The problems at HVM go back to Bishop Tikhon, and you should know that.  The present choir director has hired (at her own expense) several heterodox (who don't receive communion), but that's largely because the parish continues to twindle because of the failure of the last two rectors (did you go to the good-bye potluck?).  They are trying to keep two liturgies (Slavonic and English) with full, four-part music, with a tiny pool of people who can sing and an UNPAID director.  You should be ashamed of what you said here

As for who receives communion and why or why not, I can tell you that there are many circumstances in which appearances can be deceiving.  Still, it is not up to you to decide.  The scariest situations are usually with people who have no outward appearance of anything untoward.

You may have stood in the choir, but I've served on the altar at HVM.  Archbishop Benjamin can be frustratingly patient despite his jolly demeanor.  The truth is, he shows few of his cards, and he certainly won't show them to you.  You and I know that all of the players have their flaws, but you can't lay all the blame on Archbishop Benjamin.  By the way, His Eminence is not the 'heir apparent'... if you listened to more OCA folks, you'd hear that many are going to Parma supporting Bishop Michael because of his demonstrated track record as a long-time priest and administrator of STOTS.

I was 'outspoken' during the 'time of troubles' of the Antiochian Archdiocese, and I will continue to speak up when I see problems.  If you have a problem with me commenting, you can come visit me in Torrance.


What fascinates me is the fact that there are two outspoken Antiochian Priests who are going to bat for the OCA Synod. Yet few OCA priests are speaking out. Why do certain Antiochians feel the need to butt into matters not concerning them?

We who are/were in the OCA are facing/faced serious problems that the current batch in the OCA Synod have failed to address, especially Bishop Benjamin who is the heir apparent to be the next Metropolitan.

Here in Los Angeles, AB Benjamin's stronghold, communion is given to active unrepentant homosexuals, but heterosexuals who fail and who conceive out of wedlock are penanced for a year to three years because everyone could see the pregnant lady's swollen abdomen. Why the discrepancy?

Is sin in secret somehow less wrong? That is the impression given. I congratulated the woman for having the courage to bring that beautiful child to term as she did not give into pressure to abort, so that she could receive communion without anyone knowing about her problem. In addition, active unrepentant Jewish gays are allowed to sing at the OCA Cathedral in Los Angeles. I sang in that choir, so I know first hand about these matters.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on September 11, 2012, 04:31:35 PM
Dear Maria,

I don't know how many OCA priests are on this board.  I can only say this: I have attended OCA parishes (as a layman and served occasionally as a priest), went to an OCA seminary, and have very close friends in the OCA.  perhaps I am entitled to care... maybe just a little bit?  Please, may I?

The problems at HVM go back to Bishop Tikhon, and you should know that.  The present choir director has hired (at her own expense) several heterodox (who don't receive communion), but that's largely because the parish continues to twindle because of the failure of the last two rectors (did you go to the good-bye potluck?).  They are trying to keep two liturgies (Slavonic and English) with full, four-part music, with a tiny pool of people who can sing and an UNPAID director.  You should be ashamed of what you said here

As for who receives communion and why or why not, I can tell you that there are many circumstances in which appearances can be deceiving.  Still, it is not up to you to decide.  The scariest situations are usually with people who have no outward appearance of anything untoward.

You may have stood in the choir, but I've served on the altar at HVM.  Archbishop Benjamin can be frustratingly patient despite his jolly demeanor.  The truth is, he shows few of his cards, and he certainly won't show them to you.  You and I know that all of the players have their flaws, but you can't lay all the blame on Archbishop Benjamin.  By the way, His Eminence is not the 'heir apparent'... if you listened to more OCA folks, you'd hear that many are going to Parma supporting Bishop Michael because of his demonstrated track record as a long-time priest and administrator of STOTS.

I was 'outspoken' during the 'time of troubles' of the Antiochian Archdiocese, and I will continue to speak up when I see problems.  If you have a problem with me commenting, you can come visit me in Torrance.


What fascinates me is the fact that there are two outspoken Antiochian Priests who are going to bat for the OCA Synod. Yet few OCA priests are speaking out. Why do certain Antiochians feel the need to butt into matters not concerning them?

We who are/were in the OCA are facing/faced serious problems that the current batch in the OCA Synod have failed to address, especially Bishop Benjamin who is the heir apparent to be the next Metropolitan.

Here in Los Angeles, AB Benjamin's stronghold, communion is given to active unrepentant homosexuals, but heterosexuals who fail and who conceive out of wedlock are penanced for a year to three years because everyone could see the pregnant lady's swollen abdomen. Why the discrepancy?

Is sin in secret somehow less wrong? That is the impression given. I congratulated the woman for having the courage to bring that beautiful child to term as she did not give into pressure to abort, so that she could receive communion without anyone knowing about her problem. In addition, active unrepentant Jewish gays are allowed to sing at the OCA Cathedral in Los Angeles. I sang in that choir, so I know first hand about these matters.

Thank you Father G. for your corrective. I am glad that you did it because I may not have been as diplomatic as you. Some of you may know that I am a PK (priest's son) and thus I have seen and heard many things that the usual lay person is not exposed to. My point is that it is far too easy to misunderstand or misinterpret something that one sees or hears of.

For example, there was a report on Monomakhos last year or so about girls serving in the Altar. You can imagine how that brought out all the super defenders of Orthodoxy to the fore, who were positively foaming at the mouth about such an innovation. It turned out that these girls did not serve in the Altar at all; they were seated on the front left pew and joined the great procession bearing candles and went back to their pew after the Entrance, having never been in the Altar. In my church, we have "handmaidens" who serve the zakuska, the blessed bread and wine to help consume the Gifts that had just been received from the priest or deacon. The handmaidens also have a part during the Holy Friday services, when welcoming a hierarch, etc... Nothing innovative or strange about it.

Another thing that some folks get super excited about perceived actions or non-actions by their bishop (particularly the latter). They simply do not have the whole picture: a bishop's action may not be visible because, as it is usually the case, it is private matter between him and his deputy, the local priest. The bishop's action may have been communicated to the Parish Council and not sent out as an encyclical (do we really need to have one of these for every thing of personal interest to us?). The bishop may be coordinating his response with the Holy Synod, etc.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on September 11, 2012, 04:43:13 PM
I sang in the choir for years, but I didn't notice that it gave me any special insight into the hearts and souls of my fellow choristers.

You probably did not have to sing next to a PAID PROFESSIONAL non-Orthodox choir member who would crack jokes during the Gospel, solemn time of communion, etc. These people should not be allowed to sing in a choir, but AB Benjamin allows this.

A greater use of congregational chant and the reduction of the use of 'concert' pieces and concert choirs would solve that issue!

Amen! OTH, when the congregation is small and cannot carry a tune, the powers that be at some churches, particularly cathedral churches, are sometimes tempted to use heterodox professional singers. I remember that is exactly what happened at our Cathedral Church of St. Stephen in Constantinople; we just did not have enough tenors so our director hired an opera singer, who was a heterodox person.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on September 11, 2012, 04:45:51 PM
Dear Maria,

I don't know how many OCA priests are on this board.  I can only say this: I have attended OCA parishes (as a layman and served occasionally as a priest), went to an OCA seminary, and have very close friends in the OCA.  perhaps I am entitled to care... maybe just a little bit?  Please, may I?

The problems at HVM go back to Bishop Tikhon, and you should know that.  The present choir director has hired (at her own expense) several heterodox (who don't receive communion), but that's largely because the parish continues to twindle because of the failure of the last two rectors (did you go to the good-bye potluck?).  They are trying to keep two liturgies (Slavonic and English) with full, four-part music, with a tiny pool of people who can sing and an UNPAID director.  You should be ashamed of what you said here

As for who receives communion and why or why not, I can tell you that there are many circumstances in which appearances can be deceiving.  Still, it is not up to you to decide.  The scariest situations are usually with people who have no outward appearance of anything untoward.

You may have stood in the choir, but I've served on the altar at HVM.  Archbishop Benjamin can be frustratingly patient despite his jolly demeanor.  The truth is, he shows few of his cards, and he certainly won't show them to you.  You and I know that all of the players have their flaws, but you can't lay all the blame on Archbishop Benjamin.  By the way, His Eminence is not the 'heir apparent'... if you listened to more OCA folks, you'd hear that many are going to Parma supporting Bishop Michael because of his demonstrated track record as a long-time priest and administrator of STOTS.

I was 'outspoken' during the 'time of troubles' of the Antiochian Archdiocese, and I will continue to speak up when I see problems.  If you have a problem with me commenting, you can come visit me in Torrance.


What fascinates me is the fact that there are two outspoken Antiochian Priests who are going to bat for the OCA Synod. Yet few OCA priests are speaking out. Why do certain Antiochians feel the need to butt into matters not concerning them?

We who are/were in the OCA are facing/faced serious problems that the current batch in the OCA Synod have failed to address, especially Bishop Benjamin who is the heir apparent to be the next Metropolitan.

Here in Los Angeles, AB Benjamin's stronghold, communion is given to active unrepentant homosexuals, but heterosexuals who fail and who conceive out of wedlock are penanced for a year to three years because everyone could see the pregnant lady's swollen abdomen. Why the discrepancy?

Is sin in secret somehow less wrong? That is the impression given. I congratulated the woman for having the courage to bring that beautiful child to term as she did not give into pressure to abort, so that she could receive communion without anyone knowing about her problem. In addition, active unrepentant Jewish gays are allowed to sing at the OCA Cathedral in Los Angeles. I sang in that choir, so I know first hand about these matters.

You conveniently skipped over the fact that these non-Orthodox PAID PROFESSIONAL Jewish homosexuals continue to crack jokes during the most solemn moments of the Divine Liturgy.

I would rather have no choir with only one or two chanters than these sacrilegious jokes.

Bishop Benjamin knows that these things are occurring. People have complained to him, but the choir director is his friend.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: mike on September 11, 2012, 04:55:38 PM
You conveniently skipped over the fact that these non-Orthodox PAID PROFESSIONAL Jewish homosexuals continue to crack jokes during the most solemn moments of the Divine Liturgy.

It made me laugh.

emphasis mine
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on September 11, 2012, 04:59:59 PM
You conveniently skipped over the fact that these non-Orthodox PAID PROFESSIONAL Jewish homosexuals continue to crack jokes during the most solemn moments of the Divine Liturgy.

It made me laugh.

emphasis mine

Ooops. Freudian slip.

These professional singers were awesome stand-up comedians. I would laugh at their horrible jokes and then try to repent in preparation for Holy Communion. I finally had to stop attending that church. It was not good for my salvation.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on September 11, 2012, 05:04:23 PM
People often ask for things they don't really want.  As in:

"Be honest... does this dress make me look fat?"

Her ends says that she has given herself emotional justification not to change her mind.  I'm not going to engage in a useless activity.  The introduction may say "I'm open," but the conclusion says, "Case closed."

I think the feedback she's really looking for is agreement.  Having read through it, I can't give her that.

You should email her with those corrections.  She's asked for feedback.


I suspect there are people on both sides who saying "case closed".   ;)  This is why I encourage EVERYONE to engage her (since she asked).  I've certainly seen enough of that attitude here.... move along folks, nothing to see here.

I know of two people who have emailed her to give her feedback and corrections (myself being one) and she's been quite open.  

I am not going to engage with a person who says the following:

"The SMPAC wrote on the first page of their Memorandum:  “In order to generate a readable document in a timely manner, citations and footnotes are not included; however, all of the facts and observations contained herein are based on documentary evidence available in the OCA Chancery and/or on verifiable, trustworthy statements.” This is unacceptable for an official church document.  Assertions of the nature made within the Memorandum must be verifiable."

The highlighted sentences are evidence of a mindset that will not tolerate dissent. Just who is she to think that she is competent to determine the proper quality of an official church document? Even if she had the qualifications to make such a judgment, why does she not lay out her argument in a manner that befits discussion an official church document--that is, with canonical citations and historical arguments? Something is quite rotten here and I suspect that she may be yet another incarnation of Metropolitan Jonah's eminence grise, Father Joseph Fester.

I believe this letter is nothing but yet another attempt to reinstate Metropolitan Jonah as Primate. It is part of a campaign in which the main players are the Monomakhos Blog and regular, but shadowy characters, who have Internet names like Helga, Nikos, Um, etc. I also suspect that our own Princess Mommy is somehow associated with these characters. Why else would she so ever innocently put on the table such a propaganda document?

I agree with most of what is said in this post, but I disagree with the allegation of the intentions of posting the "Fevronia Letter."  It is information relative to the issue.  The fact that the entire Holy Synod unanimously acted to force the "First Among Them" to resign, indicates an apparently necessary action, however, documentation that has surfaced since, including the Holy Synod's explanation, do not support the forced resignation in my opinion.  Therefore, additional documentation assists in an understanding of what happened, if for no other reason than to possibly assist in avoiding the election of a failing primate, in any church, in the future.  I remain compelled to accept the Synod's action, but do not see the justification for it as yet.  In the end, the "Fevronia Letter" offers nothing to enable a better understanding, unfortunately.

Regarding the bolded text above, I think one of the problems is that folks are looking at the Holy Canons that have been produced in ecumenical or pan-Orthodox councils. However, it is the prerogative of any local church to develop its own canons (rules) and, in OCA's case she decided in Council to adopt its own statutes. The OCA can also develop various policies that are not mere suggestions but binding on all. The policy that is most germane, the Policy on Sexual Misconduct, is such a policy that was proclaimed to the world by +Jonah himself.

That said, it is obvious to me that a case may be made that +Jonah has violated either OCA Statute or policies, and/or Apostolic Canon 34. The fact remains that the Holy Synod has not formally and publicly charged him with violating Canon 34, and I have no idea if this is because they do not agree with my conclusion or because they do not want to pursue that route. Incidentally, I base my conclusion strictly on official documents and statements by the Holy Synod and by +Jonah himself.

The most salient evidence that we have are +Jonah's statement at the Seattle AAC and his resignation letter. Allegations are made that he did not write the statement or that he had been forced to sign the letter (or even that Father Jillions lied to him when he said the entire Synod requested his resignation). All the foregoing are excuses that may be understandable if they come from a toddler but they belittle +Jonah the man. I have no idea why his "supporters" are pushing these allegations because all they are doing is further diminish his reputation.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on September 11, 2012, 05:12:13 PM
With the exception of Bishop Michael, all the other bishops apparently have baggage.

I just do not trust the OCA Synod any longer. With the history of deposing, retiring, or forcing an existing Metropolitan into oblivion and then not allowing them to commune in any parish save one (excommunication), what is to prevent Bishop Michael if he should receive the white thingy from being forced out too. There is a pattern of forced retirements.

Frankly, I wish the entire OCA Synod would disband. Enough is enough.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on September 11, 2012, 05:14:10 PM
I'm sorry if you guys don't like more information forwarded to you on this subject.

Some people, particularly here, are only interested in 'more information' when it jibes with what they have already decided.

I am one who said that I would pursue this "information" with an unknown Internet character whose argument is declarative and not persuasive. I see that every day at Monomakhos, where I used to be a regular contributor until George (its moderator) and many of its contributors went over the edge to become conspiracy-loving, agenda-driven, bishop-hating and disrespecting fanatics who have been also beating the drums of schism.

The facts are available to anyone who has eyes to hear and ears to hear. The resignation of Metropolitan Jonah is a denouement that is kind to him and his legacy.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on September 11, 2012, 05:18:10 PM
With the exception of Bishop Michael, all the other bishops apparently have baggage.

I just do not trust the OCA Synod any longer. With the history of deposing, retiring, or forcing an existing Metropolitan into oblivion and then not allowing them to commune in any parish save one (excommunication), what is to prevent Bishop Michael if he should receive the white thingy from being forced out too. There is a pattern of forced retirements.

Frankly, I wish the entire OCA Synod would disband. Enough is enough.

I am sorry that you feel this way for it looks like you will be hunting for "greener pastures," if you have not done so already. Allow me please to remark that I pray that at some point in the future, when passions have cooled down, you will regret having painted with a broad condemnatory brush all of our bishops except for one. As for your final wish, I think it is very unseemly and simply wrong. Lord have mercy!
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on September 11, 2012, 05:21:51 PM
I'm sorry if you guys don't like more information forwarded to you on this subject.

Some people, particularly here, are only interested in 'more information' when it jibes with what they have already decided.

I am one who said that I would pursue this exposition with an unknown Internet character whose argument is declarative and not persuasive. I see that every day at Monomakhos, where I used to be a regular contributor until George (its moderator) and many of its contributors went over the edge to become conspiracy-loving, agenda-driven, bishop-hating and disrespecting fanatics who have been also beating the drums of schism.

The facts are available to anyone who has eyes to hear and ears to hear. The resignation of Metropolitan Jonah is a denouement that is kind to him and his legacy.

Excommunication is not kind. Met. Jonah cannot even attend the nearest OCA church where he lives but must travel all the way to St. Mark's, which is the only parish where he may serve and receive Holy Communion. Usually he goes to ROCOR churches, which is only spawning rumors that he wants to transfer to the ROCOR. Perhaps Met. Jonah would rather not attend the Cathedral with its openly gay policies in contradiction to church teaching on homosexuality.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Iconodule on September 11, 2012, 05:27:02 PM
Maria, what jurisdiction are you in now?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on September 11, 2012, 05:32:05 PM
Maria, what jurisdiction are you in now?

I recently joined HOTCA/GOC, which is the same jurisdiction that Father Anastasios Hudson, our webmaster belongs to. In fact, he introduced me to his jurisdiction.

http://www.hotca.org/

I still have friends in the OCA. It is so difficult to hear about all the turmoil in the OCA Synod, then we are told to stick our heads in the sand and pray. Well, it is hard to do so with jokes flying around during communion. We were being assaulted from all sides. The devil was having a heyday.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: mike on September 11, 2012, 05:39:38 PM
So why do you "care" about the OCA? You are not even in communion with them.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Iconodule on September 11, 2012, 05:46:33 PM
Maria, what jurisdiction are you in now?

I recently joined HOTCA/GOC

Then your opinion kinda doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PrincessMommy on September 11, 2012, 05:48:41 PM
Maria, what jurisdiction are you in now?

I recently joined HOTCA/GOC

Then your opinion kinda doesn't matter.

Anymore than Fr. Giyrus' ??
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Iconodule on September 11, 2012, 05:49:24 PM
Maria, what jurisdiction are you in now?

I recently joined HOTCA/GOC

Then your opinion kinda doesn't matter.

Anymore than Fr. Giyrus' ??

Fr. Giryus remains a member of the Orthodox Church. He is in communion with the OCA and also has familiarity with the situation in question. He also isn't screaming for the OCA to be disbanded.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on September 11, 2012, 05:51:24 PM
So why do you "care" about the OCA? You are not even in communion with them.

I care because most of my friends are still in the OCA.
My initial instruction in Orthodoxy was done in the OCA, and for this I am eternally grateful.
Several may now join me in the GOC.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: mike on September 11, 2012, 05:58:39 PM
My initial instruction in Orthodoxy was done in the OCA, and for this I am eternally grateful.

But you left it.

Quote
Several may now join me in the GOC.

Shouldn't you be happy about that?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on September 11, 2012, 05:58:49 PM
Maria, what jurisdiction are you in now?

I recently joined HOTCA/GOC

Then your opinion kinda doesn't matter.

Anymore than Fr. Giyrus' ??

Fr. Giryus remains a member of the Orthodox Church. He is in communion with the OCA and also has familiarity with the situation in question. He also isn't screaming for the OCA to be disbanded.

Fr. Giryus seems to be ignoring the problems that are rampant in the OCA perhaps not in the Diocese of the South right now, but everywhere else. The DOS needs prayers that they might find a truly Orthodox Bishop, otherwise they may be in for a rude awakening.

Yes, I am speaking out because my friends have been silenced by their priests who have been preaching from the pulpits: telling them to be blindly obedient, to ignore this forum and all the internet "gossip," and to ignore the problems that plague the OCA: improper jokes during communion, openly homosexuals receiving communion, etc.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: mike on September 11, 2012, 06:04:02 PM
Yes, I am speaking out because my friends have been silenced by their priests who have been preaching from the pulpits: telling them to be blindly obedient, to ignore this forum and all the internet "gossip," and to ignore the problems that plague the OCA: improper jokes during communion, openly homosexuals receiving communion, etc.
Our forum is popular. Great!
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on September 11, 2012, 06:05:40 PM
My initial instruction in Orthodoxy was done in the OCA, and for this I am eternally grateful.

But you left it.

Quote
Several may now join me in the GOC.

Shouldn't you be happy about that?

No, not really.

Changing jurisdictions is not without danger. Those who leave the OCA and then decide otherwise because of the sparsity of parishes in the GOC face one year's penance upon their return to the OCA. I know several who did change jurisdictions, and they are still struggling today.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: mike on September 11, 2012, 06:14:22 PM
Changing jurisdictions is not without danger. Those who leave the OCA and then decide otherwise because of the sparsity of parishes in the GOC face one year's penance upon their return to the OCA. I know several who did change jurisdictions, and they are still struggling today.

You have not changed jurisdictions. You (in secular terms) leaved one religious organisation and enterred the another one that is quite antagonistic torwards your previous one. Yet you still give some advices for members of the organisation you left.

One might suspect that you purposely give back advice and create a havoc to discourage people from the OCA.

If your intentions are sincere it'd be better if you stop discussing OCA matters either way. You do not openly criticise internal matters of the company or organisation you have just left (and previously were supporting) - some things are just not proper and in accordance with the etiquette.

Live nad let live (or let die).
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on September 11, 2012, 06:26:39 PM
Changing jurisdictions is not without danger. Those who leave the OCA and then decide otherwise because of the sparsity of parishes in the GOC face one year's penance upon their return to the OCA. I know several who did change jurisdictions, and they are still struggling today.

You have not changed jurisdictions. You (in secular terms) leaved one religious organisation and enterred the another one that is quite antagonistic torwards your previous one. Yet you still give some advices for members of the organisation you left.

One might suspect that you purposely give back advice and create a havoc to discourage people from the OCA.

If your intentions are sincere it'd be better if you stop discussing OCA matters either way. You do not openly criticise internal matters of the company or organisation you have just left (and previously were supporting) - some things are just not proper and in accordance with the etiquette.

Live nad let live (or let die).

I was losing my salvation in the OCA.

I do not wish that on my friends who are also struggling. However, I must give them this caveat:
Do not run away from the OCA trying to find greener pastures as you will never find paradise except in the next life.

IF my friends were to be truly fed up with all the liturgical innovations with "altar" girls/handmaidens, the Sign of Peace, and the passing of antidoron to non-believers, and IF they were to be disgusted with the ecumenism -- the OCA membership in the National Council of Churches (NCC) and the World Council of Churches (WCC), then, yes, I would say run (don't walk) to the nearest GOC parish.

If, however, they are just saddened with the forced resignations of three past Metropolitans, and do not want any more politics, then perhaps they should continue to obey their priests who urge them to be blindly obedient to the OCA Synod and keep their eyes focused on their own sins.

Nevertheless, something must be done about all the abuse that is allowed in all the OCA dioceses except the DOS, and the double standards where active open homosexuals can receive the Holy Mysteries, but pregnant ladies are penanced and almost urged into abortions.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Iconodule on September 11, 2012, 06:39:23 PM
Changing jurisdictions is not without danger. Those who leave the OCA and then decide otherwise because of the sparsity of parishes in the GOC face one year's penance upon their return to the OCA. I know several who did change jurisdictions, and they are still struggling today.

You have not changed jurisdictions. You (in secular terms) leaved one religious organisation and enterred the another one that is quite antagonistic torwards your previous one. Yet you still give some advices for members of the organisation you left.

One might suspect that you purposely give back advice and create a havoc to discourage people from the OCA.

If your intentions are sincere it'd be better if you stop discussing OCA matters either way. You do not openly criticise internal matters of the company or organisation you have just left (and previously were supporting) - some things are just not proper and in accordance with the etiquette.

Live nad let live (or let die).

I was losing my salvation in the OCA.

You relinquished salvation by separating from the Church.

Quote
IF my friends were to be truly fed up with all the liturgical innovations with "altar" girls/handmaidens, the Sign of Peace, and the passing of antidoron to non-believers, and IF they were to be disgusted with the ecumenism -- the OCA membership in the National Council of Churches (NCC) and the World Council of Churches (WCC), then, yes, I would say run (don't walk) to the nearest GOC parish.


If you are willing to make a schism over such trifles, then you'll eventually find problems wherever you go. The next thing you need to look for is a church that expels all non-believers after the litany of the catechumens.

By the way, I'd like to see you find evidence of a universal Church tradition forbidding antidoron to non-Orthodox. Also, what doctrine is violated by such a sharing?

Quote
Nevertheless, something must be done about all the abuse that is allowed in all the OCA dioceses except the DOS, and the double standards where active open homosexuals can receive the Holy Mysteries, but pregnant ladies are penanced and almost urged into abortions.

But your new religion teaches that the OCA has no Holy Mysteries, so why does it matter to whom they are given? After all, in your view, it's just mushy bread.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on September 11, 2012, 07:24:58 PM
Changing jurisdictions is not without danger. Those who leave the OCA and then decide otherwise because of the sparsity of parishes in the GOC face one year's penance upon their return to the OCA. I know several who did change jurisdictions, and they are still struggling today.

You have not changed jurisdictions. You (in secular terms) leaved one religious organisation and enterred the another one that is quite antagonistic torwards your previous one. Yet you still give some advices for members of the organisation you left.

One might suspect that you purposely give back advice and create a havoc to discourage people from the OCA.

If your intentions are sincere it'd be better if you stop discussing OCA matters either way. You do not openly criticise internal matters of the company or organisation you have just left (and previously were supporting) - some things are just not proper and in accordance with the etiquette.

Live nad let live (or let die).

I was losing my salvation in the OCA.

You relinquished salvation by separating from the Church.

Quote
IF my friends were to be truly fed up with all the liturgical innovations with "altar" girls/handmaidens, the Sign of Peace, and the passing of antidoron to non-believers, and IF they were to be disgusted with the ecumenism -- the OCA membership in the National Council of Churches (NCC) and the World Council of Churches (WCC), then, yes, I would say run (don't walk) to the nearest GOC parish.


If you are willing to make a schism over such trifles, then you'll eventually find problems wherever you go. The next thing you need to look for is a church that expels all non-believers after the litany of the catechumens.

By the way, I'd like to see you find evidence of a universal Church tradition forbidding antidoron to non-Orthodox. Also, what doctrine is violated by such a sharing?

Quote
Nevertheless, something must be done about all the abuse that is allowed in all the OCA dioceses except the DOS, and the double standards where active open homosexuals can receive the Holy Mysteries, but pregnant ladies are penanced and almost urged into abortions.

But your new religion teaches that the OCA has no Holy Mysteries, so why does it matter to whom they are given? After all, in your view, it's just mushy bread.

I have not left the Holy Orthodox Church. Neither am I schismatic.
Our Priests and Bishops are truly Orthodox.

Furthermore, the GOC (Kallinikos) does not teach that the OCA lacks Holy Mysteries and is totally graceless. That false accusation seems to be part of Bishop Gregory of Colorado's false teachings, not the GOCs. Bishop Gregory also teaches that the OCA, Antiochians, Greek Orthodox, Ukrainians, HOCNA and the GOC are all graceless. He believes that his is the only Orthodox Church. Talk about cult mentality!

For example, when an OCA member is baptized into the OCA, that baptism is accepted by the GOC as long as it remains Trinitarian with a triple immersion. However, those adult OCA members who have had water poured over their heads using a baby baptismal fount will be baptized by triple immersion. When an OCA baptized and married couple is received into the GOC, they are not remarried, but they are chrismated.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Elisha on September 11, 2012, 07:30:00 PM

Trust me, if AB Benjamin receives the white thingy, it will be the darkest night for the OCA.
Parishes are suffering here in the West.

Whenever AB Benjamin does an infrequent pastoral visit and addresses a "homily" to the parishioners, he addresses the handful of teens, jokes with them, and offers nothing spiritually substantial. It made me cry.

Maria, my priest (in the Diocese of the West) has stated that +BENJAMIN will not accept any nomination to be Metropolitan.  I'm perturbed by the seeming "tolerance" of alleged bad situations at the monastery in Manton and these other issues with homosexual parishoners in certain parishes.  Except for these areas of concern, I think he is a great bishop.  I'm sorry if you have not had good experiences with him.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on September 11, 2012, 07:33:57 PM
So why do you "care" about the OCA? You are not even in communion with them.

I care because most of my friends are still in the OCA.
My initial instruction in Orthodoxy was done in the OCA, and for this I am eternally grateful.
Several may now join me in the GOC.

Please be careful as you are getting close to violating this rule:

"* No Proselytism -- Proselytizing people to your jurisdiction is not allowed.  We don't care if it is the GOA or the ROAC, we don't exist to give spiritual advice, but rather to discuss spiritual matters. There is a healthy distinction.  If you feel the need to plug your group then do it by private message."

Thanks, Carl Kraeff, Section Moderator
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: pensateomnia on September 11, 2012, 07:47:24 PM
Changing jurisdictions is not without danger. Those who leave the OCA and then decide otherwise because of the sparsity of parishes in the GOC face one year's penance upon their return to the OCA. I know several who did change jurisdictions, and they are still struggling today.

You have not changed jurisdictions. You (in secular terms) leaved one religious organisation and enterred the another one that is quite antagonistic torwards your previous one. Yet you still give some advices for members of the organisation you left.

One might suspect that you purposely give back advice and create a havoc to discourage people from the OCA.

If your intentions are sincere it'd be better if you stop discussing OCA matters either way. You do not openly criticise internal matters of the company or organisation you have just left (and previously were supporting) - some things are just not proper and in accordance with the etiquette.

Live nad let live (or let die).

I was losing my salvation in the OCA.

You relinquished salvation by separating from the Church.

Quote
IF my friends were to be truly fed up with all the liturgical innovations with "altar" girls/handmaidens, the Sign of Peace, and the passing of antidoron to non-believers, and IF they were to be disgusted with the ecumenism -- the OCA membership in the National Council of Churches (NCC) and the World Council of Churches (WCC), then, yes, I would say run (don't walk) to the nearest GOC parish.


If you are willing to make a schism over such trifles, then you'll eventually find problems wherever you go. The next thing you need to look for is a church that expels all non-believers after the litany of the catechumens.

By the way, I'd like to see you find evidence of a universal Church tradition forbidding antidoron to non-Orthodox. Also, what doctrine is violated by such a sharing?

Quote
Nevertheless, something must be done about all the abuse that is allowed in all the OCA dioceses except the DOS, and the double standards where active open homosexuals can receive the Holy Mysteries, but pregnant ladies are penanced and almost urged into abortions.

But your new religion teaches that the OCA has no Holy Mysteries, so why does it matter to whom they are given? After all, in your view, it's just mushy bread.

I have not left the Holy Orthodox Church. Neither am I schismatic.
Our Priests and Bishops are truly Orthodox.

Furthermore, the GOC (Kallinikos) does not teach that the OCA lacks Holy Mysteries and is totally graceless. That false accusation seems to be part of Bishop Gregory of Colorado's false teachings, not the GOCs. Bishop Gregory also teaches that the OCA, Antiochians, Greek Orthodox, Ukrainians, HOCNA and the GOC are all graceless. He believes that his is the only Orthodox Church. Talk about cult mentality!

For example, when an OCA member is baptized into the OCA, that baptism is accepted by the GOC as long as it remains Trinitarian with a triple immersion. However, those adult OCA members who have had water poured over their heads using a baby baptismal fount will be baptized by triple immersion. When an OCA baptized and married couple is received into the GOC, they are not remarried, but they are chrismated.


Perhaps Fr Anastasios can clarify -- I would be very interested in him doing so -- but I believe he would agree that the GOC is in schism from "World Orthodoxy" (or, perhaps, that "World Orthodoxy" is in schism from it). The point being, there is most definitely schism. In fact, that's kind of THE point.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on September 11, 2012, 08:02:00 PM
Changing jurisdictions is not without danger. Those who leave the OCA and then decide otherwise because of the sparsity of parishes in the GOC face one year's penance upon their return to the OCA. I know several who did change jurisdictions, and they are still struggling today.

You have not changed jurisdictions. You (in secular terms) leaved one religious organisation and enterred the another one that is quite antagonistic torwards your previous one. Yet you still give some advices for members of the organisation you left.

One might suspect that you purposely give back advice and create a havoc to discourage people from the OCA.

If your intentions are sincere it'd be better if you stop discussing OCA matters either way. You do not openly criticise internal matters of the company or organisation you have just left (and previously were supporting) - some things are just not proper and in accordance with the etiquette.

Live nad let live (or let die).

I was losing my salvation in the OCA.

You relinquished salvation by separating from the Church.

Quote
IF my friends were to be truly fed up with all the liturgical innovations with "altar" girls/handmaidens, the Sign of Peace, and the passing of antidoron to non-believers, and IF they were to be disgusted with the ecumenism -- the OCA membership in the National Council of Churches (NCC) and the World Council of Churches (WCC), then, yes, I would say run (don't walk) to the nearest GOC parish.


If you are willing to make a schism over such trifles, then you'll eventually find problems wherever you go. The next thing you need to look for is a church that expels all non-believers after the litany of the catechumens.

By the way, I'd like to see you find evidence of a universal Church tradition forbidding antidoron to non-Orthodox. Also, what doctrine is violated by such a sharing?

Quote
Nevertheless, something must be done about all the abuse that is allowed in all the OCA dioceses except the DOS, and the double standards where active open homosexuals can receive the Holy Mysteries, but pregnant ladies are penanced and almost urged into abortions.

But your new religion teaches that the OCA has no Holy Mysteries, so why does it matter to whom they are given? After all, in your view, it's just mushy bread.

I have not left the Holy Orthodox Church. Neither am I schismatic.
Our Priests and Bishops are truly Orthodox.

Furthermore, the GOC (Kallinikos) does not teach that the OCA lacks Holy Mysteries and is totally graceless. That false accusation seems to be part of Bishop Gregory of Colorado's false teachings, not the GOCs. Bishop Gregory also teaches that the OCA, Antiochians, Greek Orthodox, Ukrainians, HOCNA and the GOC are all graceless. He believes that his is the only Orthodox Church. Talk about cult mentality!

For example, when an OCA member is baptized into the OCA, that baptism is accepted by the GOC as long as it remains Trinitarian with a triple immersion. However, those adult OCA members who have had water poured over their heads using a baby baptismal fount will be baptized by triple immersion. When an OCA baptized and married couple is received into the GOC, they are not remarried, but they are chrismated.


Perhaps Fr Anastasios can clarify -- I would be very interested in him doing so -- but I believe he would agree that the GOC is in schism from "World Orthodoxy" (or, perhaps, that "World Orthodoxy" is in schism from it). The point being, there is most definitely schism. In fact, that's kind of THE point.

Your post seems to bait and proselytize too. In addition, by inferring that I am a schismatic, you are getting very close to violating Father Anastasios Hudson's Administrative Directive that we are not to refer to each other using the term, "schismatic."

You probably know full well that I cannot respond to your bait due to the post by Second Chance. I quote him below.

Quote
Please be careful as you are getting close to violating this rule:

"* No Proselytism -- Proselytizing people to your jurisdiction is not allowed.  We don't care if it is the GOA or the ROAC, we don't exist to give spiritual advice, but rather to discuss spiritual matters. There is a healthy distinction.  If you feel the need to plug your group then do it by private message."

Thanks, Carl Kraeff, Section Moderator
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: FatherGiryus on September 11, 2012, 08:07:35 PM
So, what's the bigger problem: them acting according to who they are, or you being uncomfortable with who your are?

You conveniently skipped over the fact that these non-Orthodox PAID PROFESSIONAL Jewish homosexuals continue to crack jokes during the most solemn moments of the Divine Liturgy.

It made me laugh.

emphasis mine

Ooops. Freudian slip.

These professional singers were awesome stand-up comedians. I would laugh at their horrible jokes and then try to repent in preparation for Holy Communion. I finally had to stop attending that church. It was not good for my salvation.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: pensateomnia on September 11, 2012, 08:12:17 PM
No, I am interested in what the GOC teaches. I haven't read anything from it lately, so I am curious about its current teaching and relations to other Synods. Schism is a break in communion. So, obviously there is a schism, unless communion has been restored.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on September 11, 2012, 08:13:53 PM
So, what's the bigger problem: them acting according to who they are, or you being uncomfortable with who your are?

You conveniently skipped over the fact that these non-Orthodox PAID PROFESSIONAL Jewish homosexuals continue to crack jokes during the most solemn moments of the Divine Liturgy.

It made me laugh.

emphasis mine

Ooops. Freudian slip.

These professional singers were awesome stand-up comedians. I would laugh at their horrible jokes and then try to repent in preparation for Holy Communion. I finally had to stop attending that church. It was not good for my salvation.

A wicked imagination plays tricks.

I am very happy to be: loved by God and saved by Him.
I am saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved.
 
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PrincessMommy on September 11, 2012, 08:15:03 PM
what do any of the past 5-6 posts have to do with the OP??  We seem to be going far afield.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on September 11, 2012, 08:20:18 PM
I think that the jurisdictional affiliation of posters in this thread is germane to the OP and the discussion.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on September 11, 2012, 08:23:59 PM
what do any of the past 5-6 posts have to do with the OP??  We seem to be going far afield.

Thanks, I have been under personal attack. What else is new?

Anyway, I just found this excerpt from a monomakhos post. The rest of that post has been edited out as it would upset most in this thread. http://www.monomakhos.com/and-now-for-a-word-from-one-of-the-dc-nuns/#comment-33938

Quote
Metropolitan Jonah – banned from serving in ANY OCA parish except St. Mark’s in Bethesda.
Metropolitan Herman – banned from serving in ANY OCA parish except Holy Resurrection Cathedral in WB.
Metropolitan Theodosius – banned from serving in ANY OCA parish except St. John’s in Canonsburg, PA.
Bishop Nikolai – banned from serving in ANY OCA parish in the Diocese of the West and in the OCA.

Why would the OCA Synod take such extreme measures that makes receiving communion so difficult for these OCA hierarchs (two of whom are elderly). Hasn't Met Jonah suffered enough already with the apparent defamation of his good character without adding EXCOMMUNICATION to the list?  
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Schultz on September 11, 2012, 10:28:37 PM
what do any of the past 5-6 posts have to do with the OP??  We seem to be going far afield.

Thanks, I have been under personal attack. What else is new?

We reap what we sow.  You have personally attacked Orthodox bishops. 
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Gorazd on September 11, 2012, 11:02:36 PM
Is "Christine Fevronia" one of the DC nuns?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Gorazd on September 11, 2012, 11:22:36 PM
Let us just call a spade as spade and Canonical Orthodoxy the Body of Christ. Those who want to be part of it are free to join. Those who are too proud, exclude themselves.

Of course, not everything goes right in Canonical Orthodoxy. Myself I am very worried about practises like kneeling on Sunday and between Pascha and Pentecost, too much tolerance for circumcision or fasting from midnight to midnight, rather than evening to evening. But still, there is onl one Church. Sometimes, when you swim, the drift is hard. But when you are not in water, you are not swimming at all.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: serb1389 on September 11, 2012, 11:46:00 PM
Let us just call a spade as spade and Canonical Orthodoxy the Body of Christ. Those who want to be part of it are free to join. Those who are too proud, exclude themselves.

Of course, not everything goes right in Canonical Orthodoxy. Myself I am very worried about practises like kneeling on Sunday and between Pascha and Pentecost, too much tolerance for circumcision or fasting from midnight to midnight, rather than evening to evening. But still, there is onl one Church. Sometimes, when you swim, the drift is hard. But when you are not in water, you are not swimming at all.

Some thoughts by Pat. bartholomew on zealots.

http://www.patriarchate.org/documents/sunday-orthodoxy-2010

Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on September 12, 2012, 12:00:59 AM
Let us just call a spade as spade and Canonical Orthodoxy the Body of Christ. Those who want to be part of it are free to join. Those who are too proud, exclude themselves.

Of course, not everything goes right in Canonical Orthodoxy. Myself I am very worried about practises like kneeling on Sunday and between Pascha and Pentecost, too much tolerance for circumcision or fasting from midnight to midnight, rather than evening to evening. But still, there is onl one Church. Sometimes, when you swim, the drift is hard. But when you are not in water, you are not swimming at all.

Let's call a spade a spade. You are from Alexandria which expelled St. Nectarios and never apologized for falsely accusing him.

What the OCA has done is similar to what Alexandria did to St. Nectarios. There was no spiritual court convened in the cases of St. Nectarios and Met. Moses. Why? Both men had their reputations destroyed. And what was their crime or violation of canons? NONE. Absolutely none. Yet they were both forced to resign. That letter issued by the OCA synod was abhorrent; it was not done in charity. Both men were falsely accused.

Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: FatherGiryus on September 12, 2012, 12:32:05 AM
Metropolitan Moses?  You must mean Metropolitan Jonah.

Metropolitan Jonah has not said he was falsely accused.  As I have written elsewhere, if what you are saying is true and that he signed the letter under duress, than he has indeed violated the canons and his consecration oath to do nothing under compulsion.  You damn him even when you try to defend him!

The fact is that Metropolitan Jonah may very well have violated numerous canons, yet the Holy Synod could also have kept this confidential so as not to force his deposition.  You do not know the whole story, Maria.

Consider for a moment the manner in which Metropolitan Hilarion, whom the nuns hold blameless, released them.  He released them back to their bishop... in Greece.  Could he do such a thing without the agreement of the bishop in Greece.  No, unless he was refusing to receive them from Greece, meaning that he had not received them from the OCA.  This could only mean that the manner of their reception was irregular.

There is more to this story.


Let's call a spade a spade. You are from Alexandria which expelled St. Nectarios and never apologized for falsely accusing him.

What the OCA has done is similar to what Alexandria did to St. Nectarios. There was no spiritual court convened in the cases of St. Nectarios and Met. Moses. Why? Both men had their reputations destroyed. And what was their crime or violation of canons? NONE. Absolutely none. Yet they were both forced to resign. That letter issued by the OCA synod was abhorrent; it was not done in charity. Both men were falsely accused.


Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Gorazd on September 12, 2012, 12:38:53 AM
Patriarch Sophronios did not accuse St. Nektarios of anything. He instructed him to return to Greece in order to keep the peace in Egypt. There were some priests who did not get along with him. In this case, it was better to send away one person rather than a dozen. The Patriarchate did not officially accuse him of anything - individuals did, and there never was an investigation, so I have no idea whether the accusations were correct or not, and probably there is no way we can know today.

As for the letter of the OCA, I have no idea. Many facts are still unknown to the wider public in general and me in particular, so I refrain from commenting on that issue. But the Church is the Church, and yes, some of its clergymen are unworthy. To say that the Church is only where there is a perfect clergy would be donatism.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: SolEX01 on September 12, 2012, 01:04:38 AM
There is a Metropolitan Moses who is a Hierarch in the GOC/HOTCA based out of Portland, OR.  Note the lack of biographical information.

http://orthodoxmetropolisportland.org/ (http://orthodoxmetropolisportland.org/)
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on September 12, 2012, 01:26:43 AM
There is a Metropolitan Moses who is a Hierarch in the GOC/HOTCA based out of Portland, OR.  Note the lack of biographical information.

http://orthodoxmetropolisportland.org/ (http://orthodoxmetropolisportland.org/)

There is a bishop draperod who gives a huge biography, but that does not make him legitimate.

Some people even in high CEO positions have lied on their biographies.

If you look at the official biography of Met. Jonah, he omits a lot of details. After all, Met. Jonah is a true monk. Monks in a spirit of humility will not share details of their past lives. Occam's razor: Less is best.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on September 12, 2012, 01:40:09 AM
Look at this biography:

http://www.education-1.net/chancellor.htm

Doesn't his biography look impressive with all those medals, diplomas, and certificates?

He says that he is truly Orthodox and that those who deny his orthodoxy will be sued.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: SolEX01 on September 12, 2012, 01:43:36 AM
There is a Metropolitan Moses who is a Hierarch in the GOC/HOTCA based out of Portland, OR.  Note the lack of biographical information.

http://orthodoxmetropolisportland.org/ (http://orthodoxmetropolisportland.org/)

There is a bishop draperod who gives a huge biography, but that does not make him legitimate.

Never heard of him.  Can you enlighten me?

Some people even in high CEO positions have lied on their biographies.

Some CEOs (especially in education) have their degree from diploma mills; yet, they are hired and perform the job asked of them.

If you look at the official biography of Met. Jonah, he omits a lot of details. After all, Met. Jonah is a true monk. Monks in a spirit of humility will not share details of their past lives. Occam's razor: Less is best.

Promoting reincarnation?   ::)

Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: SolEX01 on September 12, 2012, 01:50:30 AM
Look at this biography:

http://www.education-1.net/chancellor.htm

Doesn't his biography look impressive with all those medals, diplomas, and certificates?

He says that he is truly Orthodox and that those who deny his orthodoxy will be sued.

Is that your next Jurisdiction?   ;D
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on September 12, 2012, 01:53:26 AM
Look at this biography:

http://www.education-1.net/chancellor.htm

Doesn't his biography look impressive with all those medals, diplomas, and certificates?

He says that he is truly Orthodox and that those who deny his orthodoxy will be sued.

Is that your next Jurisdiction?   ;D

No, but please do not kid about him. He has sued.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on September 12, 2012, 01:56:19 AM
There is a Metropolitan Moses who is a Hierarch in the GOC/HOTCA based out of Portland, OR.  Note the lack of biographical information.

http://orthodoxmetropolisportland.org/ (http://orthodoxmetropolisportland.org/)

There is a bishop draperod who gives a huge biography, but that does not make him legitimate.

Never heard of him.  Can you enlighten me?

Bishop Draperod got that name when he had a photo taken of him holding a drapery rod. It was hilarious. He has since removed that photo from his website. He the bishop of Pasadena according to his extensive biography with medals and fancy certificates.

Quote
If you look at the official biography of Met. Jonah, he omits a lot of details. After all, Met. Jonah is a true monk. Monks in a spirit of humility will not share details of their past lives. Occam's razor: Less is best.

Promoting reincarnation?   ::)



No, I am not promoting reincarnation.

You are really sharp tonight.
Notice I used the plural MONKS with the reference to their past lives.
Good catch as most of our sentences have some ambiguity.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: SolEX01 on September 12, 2012, 02:05:04 AM
There is a Metropolitan Moses who is a Hierarch in the GOC/HOTCA based out of Portland, OR.  Note the lack of biographical information.

http://orthodoxmetropolisportland.org/ (http://orthodoxmetropolisportland.org/)

There is a bishop draperod who gives a huge biography, but that does not make him legitimate.

Never heard of him.  Can you enlighten me?

Bishop Draperod got that name when he had a photo taken of him holding a drapery rod. It was hilarious. He has since removed that photo from his website. He the bishop of Pasadena according to his extensive biography with medals and fancy certificates.

Quote
If you look at the official biography of Met. Jonah, he omits a lot of details. After all, Met. Jonah is a true monk. Monks in a spirit of humility will not share details of their past lives. Occam's razor: Less is best.

Promoting reincarnation?   ::)



No, I am not promoting reincarnation.

You are really sharp tonight.
Notice I used the plural MONKS with the reference to their past lives.
Good catch as most of our sentences have some ambiguity.

Thank You.   :)
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PeterTheAleut on September 12, 2012, 02:39:30 AM
Changing jurisdictions is not without danger. Those who leave the OCA and then decide otherwise because of the sparsity of parishes in the GOC face one year's penance upon their return to the OCA. I know several who did change jurisdictions, and they are still struggling today.

You have not changed jurisdictions. You (in secular terms) leaved one religious organisation and enterred the another one that is quite antagonistic torwards your previous one. Yet you still give some advices for members of the organisation you left.

One might suspect that you purposely give back advice and create a havoc to discourage people from the OCA.

If your intentions are sincere it'd be better if you stop discussing OCA matters either way. You do not openly criticise internal matters of the company or organisation you have just left (and previously were supporting) - some things are just not proper and in accordance with the etiquette.

Live nad let live (or let die).

I was losing my salvation in the OCA.

You relinquished salvation by separating from the Church.

Quote
IF my friends were to be truly fed up with all the liturgical innovations with "altar" girls/handmaidens, the Sign of Peace, and the passing of antidoron to non-believers, and IF they were to be disgusted with the ecumenism -- the OCA membership in the National Council of Churches (NCC) and the World Council of Churches (WCC), then, yes, I would say run (don't walk) to the nearest GOC parish.


If you are willing to make a schism over such trifles, then you'll eventually find problems wherever you go. The next thing you need to look for is a church that expels all non-believers after the litany of the catechumens.

By the way, I'd like to see you find evidence of a universal Church tradition forbidding antidoron to non-Orthodox. Also, what doctrine is violated by such a sharing?

Quote
Nevertheless, something must be done about all the abuse that is allowed in all the OCA dioceses except the DOS, and the double standards where active open homosexuals can receive the Holy Mysteries, but pregnant ladies are penanced and almost urged into abortions.

But your new religion teaches that the OCA has no Holy Mysteries, so why does it matter to whom they are given? After all, in your view, it's just mushy bread.

I have not left the Holy Orthodox Church. Neither am I schismatic.
Our Priests and Bishops are truly Orthodox.

Furthermore, the GOC (Kallinikos) does not teach that the OCA lacks Holy Mysteries and is totally graceless. That false accusation seems to be part of Bishop Gregory of Colorado's false teachings, not the GOCs. Bishop Gregory also teaches that the OCA, Antiochians, Greek Orthodox, Ukrainians, HOCNA and the GOC are all graceless. He believes that his is the only Orthodox Church. Talk about cult mentality!

For example, when an OCA member is baptized into the OCA, that baptism is accepted by the GOC as long as it remains Trinitarian with a triple immersion. However, those adult OCA members who have had water poured over their heads using a baby baptismal fount will be baptized by triple immersion. When an OCA baptized and married couple is received into the GOC, they are not remarried, but they are chrismated.


Perhaps Fr Anastasios can clarify -- I would be very interested in him doing so -- but I believe he would agree that the GOC is in schism from "World Orthodoxy" (or, perhaps, that "World Orthodoxy" is in schism from it). The point being, there is most definitely schism. In fact, that's kind of THE point.

Your post seems to bait and proselytize too. In addition, by inferring that I am a schismatic, you are getting very close to violating Father Anastasios Hudson's Administrative Directive that we are not to refer to each other using the term, "schismatic."
Actually, Maria, I need to call you out for misrepresenting that administrative directive. We are not to call each other "schismatic" when doing so is not relevant to the topic of discussion. At some times, however, one's relationship to the Church is relevant to the discussion, as is the case on this thread. The application of the term "schismatic" may in fact be appropriate at such times.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: mike on September 12, 2012, 04:58:39 AM
what do any of the past 5-6 posts have to do with the OP??  We seem to be going far afield.

I am interested why does she care about the OCA as it (and the other 14) are to her no closer than Roman Catholics now.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Iconodule on September 12, 2012, 11:31:23 AM
With regard to HOTCA and their view of the New Calendarists as "graceless," here is a snippet from their own website:

Quote
Finally, the canonical Church of Greece, which comprises about 70% of the Old Calendarist movement, maintains the traditional position that the New Calendar is graceless; but actual opinion in the Church is not necessarily unilateral on this question. Its bishops reject the New Calendar church not so much because they view it as graceless, but because it has abandoned the truth. Since it does not adhere to an Orthodox confession of faith, it is impossible for the True Orthodox to recognize it, a schismatic and hereticizing body, as the Mother Church, or officially to declare that beyond a shadow of doubt it possesses sacramental grace—as Cyprian teaches.

So basically, the official position is that we're "graceless" (and this position was proclaimed several times by them over the 20th century) but it is now tolerated for some people to be agnostics without being tossed out of the Old Calendar church.

All the same, we're still "a schismatic and hereticizing body", so the question still stands as to why Maria continues to complain about bad conduct by some of our priests and slander our bishops.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: primuspilus on September 12, 2012, 12:13:27 PM
Luckily the Old Calendarists dont decide the eternal future of souls. I frankly find the whole calendar thing even more ridiculous now then when I was a catechumen.

Now back to the topic, I dont think that Met. Jonah would resume his place even if asked. I know I wouldn't.

PP
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on September 12, 2012, 01:15:44 PM
Maria, what jurisdiction are you in now?

I recently joined HOTCA/GOC

Then your opinion kinda doesn't matter.

Anymore than Fr. Giyrus' ??

Fr. Giryus remains a member of the Orthodox Church. He is in communion with the OCA and also has familiarity with the situation in question. He also isn't screaming for the OCA to be disbanded.

Fr. Giryus seems to be ignoring the problems that are rampant in the OCA perhaps not in the Diocese of the South right now, but everywhere else. The DOS needs prayers that they might find a truly Orthodox Bishop, otherwise they may be in for a rude awakening.

Yes, I am speaking out because my friends have been silenced by their priests who have been preaching from the pulpits: telling them to be blindly obedient, to ignore this forum and all the internet "gossip," and to ignore the problems that plague the OCA: improper jokes during communion, openly homosexuals receiving communion, etc.

You keep repeating very serious allegations that are partly your eyewitness and partly hearsay. I am forced to invoke the following rule: "* References & Proof -- Occasionally a moderator will make a formal request (i.e. in green font, explicitly stating that they're asking as a mod and not a user) for clarification of a point, references to support a point, or "proof" of an assertion made in the course of discussion.  Sometimes this request will come with a "time limit" or other stipulation requesting expediency."

Therefore, I am requesting that you provide corroborating evidence for each of the specific allegations that you have made. I have isolated them by the letters (a) through (f) below:

"my friends have been (a) silenced by their priests who have been preaching from the pulpits: (b) telling them to be blindly obedient, (c) to ignore this forum and all the internet "gossip," and (d) to ignore the problems that plague the OCA: (e) improper jokes during communion, (f) openly homosexuals receiving communion..."

You have 72 hours to provide us with the requested input. If you not have the corroborating evidence yet, you must provide us with the source whence your allegation came. If you need to name names, please  obtain their permission first.

Until you have provided the requested information, you may not repeat such allegations from now on. If you do, you will be put on post moderation.

Thanks, Carl Kraeff, Section Moderator
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: BoredMeeting on September 12, 2012, 02:31:50 PM
The more I reflect on everything that has happened, the less comfortable I am concerning how Metropolitan Jonah was treated.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: PeterTheAleut on September 13, 2012, 02:13:13 AM
The more I reflect on everything that has happened, the less comfortable I am concerning how Metropolitan Jonah was treated.
Reflect on "everything that has happened", or learn more about what happened? To reflect on something is to meditate on a body of knowledge that remains static--you're not acquiring more information, you're merely ruminating on the information you already have, which may not be much. I think it much better you strive to learn more about what happened. Then if you feel increasingly uncomfortable, it will at least be based on a greater knowledge of the situation.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: primuspilus on September 13, 2012, 06:24:51 AM
Quote
Reflect on "everything that has happened", or learn more about what happened? To reflect on something is to meditate on a body of knowledge that remains static--you're not acquiring more information, you're merely ruminating on the information you already have, which may not be much. I think it much better you strive to learn more about what happened. Then if you feel increasingly uncomfortable, it will at least be based on a greater knowledge of the situation
good advice.

PP
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: podkarpatska on September 13, 2012, 08:12:43 AM
With the exception of Bishop Michael, all the other bishops apparently have baggage.

I just do not trust the OCA Synod any longer. With the history of deposing, retiring, or forcing an existing Metropolitan into oblivion and then not allowing them to commune in any parish save one (excommunication), what is to prevent Bishop Michael if he should receive the white thingy from being forced out too. There is a pattern of forced retirements.

Frankly, I wish the entire OCA Synod would disband. Enough is enough.

Maria - ALL of us are imperfect and ALL of us have baggage. That is why we need the Church!
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: podkarpatska on September 13, 2012, 08:18:50 AM
Dear Maria,

I don't know how many OCA priests are on this board.  I can only say this: I have attended OCA parishes (as a layman and served occasionally as a priest), went to an OCA seminary, and have very close friends in the OCA.  perhaps I am entitled to care... maybe just a little bit?  Please, may I?

The problems at HVM go back to Bishop Tikhon, and you should know that.  The present choir director has hired (at her own expense) several heterodox (who don't receive communion), but that's largely because the parish continues to twindle because of the failure of the last two rectors (did you go to the good-bye potluck?).  They are trying to keep two liturgies (Slavonic and English) with full, four-part music, with a tiny pool of people who can sing and an UNPAID director.  You should be ashamed of what you said here

As for who receives communion and why or why not, I can tell you that there are many circumstances in which appearances can be deceiving.  Still, it is not up to you to decide.  The scariest situations are usually with people who have no outward appearance of anything untoward.

You may have stood in the choir, but I've served on the altar at HVM.  Archbishop Benjamin can be frustratingly patient despite his jolly demeanor.  The truth is, he shows few of his cards, and he certainly won't show them to you.  You and I know that all of the players have their flaws, but you can't lay all the blame on Archbishop Benjamin.  By the way, His Eminence is not the 'heir apparent'... if you listened to more OCA folks, you'd hear that many are going to Parma supporting Bishop Michael because of his demonstrated track record as a long-time priest and administrator of STOTS.

I was 'outspoken' during the 'time of troubles' of the Antiochian Archdiocese, and I will continue to speak up when I see problems.  If you have a problem with me commenting, you can come visit me in Torrance.


What fascinates me is the fact that there are two outspoken Antiochian Priests who are going to bat for the OCA Synod. Yet few OCA priests are speaking out. Why do certain Antiochians feel the need to butt into matters not concerning them?

We who are/were in the OCA are facing/faced serious problems that the current batch in the OCA Synod have failed to address, especially Bishop Benjamin who is the heir apparent to be the next Metropolitan.

Here in Los Angeles, AB Benjamin's stronghold, communion is given to active unrepentant homosexuals, but heterosexuals who fail and who conceive out of wedlock are penanced for a year to three years because everyone could see the pregnant lady's swollen abdomen. Why the discrepancy?

Is sin in secret somehow less wrong? That is the impression given. I congratulated the woman for having the courage to bring that beautiful child to term as she did not give into pressure to abort, so that she could receive communion without anyone knowing about her problem. In addition, active unrepentant Jewish gays are allowed to sing at the OCA Cathedral in Los Angeles. I sang in that choir, so I know first hand about these matters.

Thank you Father G. for your corrective. I am glad that you did it because I may not have been as diplomatic as you. Some of you may know that I am a PK (priest's son) and thus I have seen and heard many things that the usual lay person is not exposed to. My point is that it is far too easy to misunderstand or misinterpret something that one sees or hears of.

For example, there was a report on Monomakhos last year or so about girls serving in the Altar. You can imagine how that brought out all the super defenders of Orthodoxy to the fore, who were positively foaming at the mouth about such an innovation. It turned out that these girls did not serve in the Altar at all; they were seated on the front left pew and joined the great procession bearing candles and went back to their pew after the Entrance, having never been in the Altar. In my church, we have "handmaidens" who serve the zakuska, the blessed bread and wine to help consume the Gifts that had just been received from the priest or deacon. The handmaidens also have a part during the Holy Friday services, when welcoming a hierarch, etc... Nothing innovative or strange about it.

Another thing that some folks get super excited about perceived actions or non-actions by their bishop (particularly the latter). They simply do not have the whole picture: a bishop's action may not be visible because, as it is usually the case, it is private matter between him and his deputy, the local priest. The bishop's action may have been communicated to the Parish Council and not sent out as an encyclical (do we really need to have one of these for every thing of personal interest to us?). The bishop may be coordinating his response with the Holy Synod, etc.

The use of this media, i.e. the internet - to spread half truths, sometimes malicious lies and deliberate  agendas is surely not limited to our beloved Orthodox Church - just witness current events. I fear that the unrestrained use of this media will lead to the ultimate erosion of free speech rights - not by government 'diktat'  but by public demand brought on by inflammatory abuses leading to uncontrollable reactions - whether within the walls of the church or out in the public square. We need to blather less and pray more - myself included.

As a PK to too share Carl's wise observations.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: podkarpatska on September 13, 2012, 09:02:38 AM
I also wanted to note that is wrong to publically speculate as to why didn't x or y get this penance or why is z or w allowed to 'get away' with this or that. Actually it is beyond wrong to do so - it reeks of the sin of the Pharisee and evinces a lack of true humility. If you have a problem with what you PERCEIVE to be the case in your parish - first, speak IN PRIVATE with your priest. Second - if you are not satisfied with how that interaction worked out go to your regional diocesan clergy representative - be it your dean or whatever. Third - if still upset, write a letter with proper respect (maybe not of the person but of the OFFICE that person occupies; if necessary offer to meet in person with your Bishop at his convenience. You don't start out by making assumptions (remember Oscar Madison and Felix Ungers classic exchange on the meaning of the word assume from the 'Odd Couple' - google this if the reference is too obscure or not contemporary enough for some) and reaching conclusions from such assumptions.

The last thing to do, and more often than not the wrong thing to do, is to start off by playing the role of Luther and posting your 99 points online, at a parish meeting or whatever.

I know that modern America in particular doesn't seem to operate that way nowadays, but the Church is not - as most love to remind us all of the time - a particularly modern institution.

I also have to say that many of us who are offering our outside comments on the OCA's current struggles do have a stake in the outcome. As Orthodox Christians - either clergy or informed laity - in full communion with the OCA we believe that what happens to one of our brothers or sisters in Christ will impact all of us. Today, more than ever, we are not for the most part, jurisdictional islands operating next to, but oblivious to the fate of each other. Those days are generally gone - witness the positive things being done - slowly I will concede, by the EA in terms of beginning to organize our missionary efforts, our administrative rules and so on in a proper, canonical and in a manner suited to the contemporary experience - as has been the case throughout the centuries as our Church has found herself in any number of different societal, political and cultural settings - AND ENDURED.

Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: primuspilus on September 13, 2012, 10:02:07 AM
I just think this should be used as a catalyst to administratively unite the churches once and for all here in the US. No more games.

PP
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Maria on September 13, 2012, 06:46:20 PM
Maria, what jurisdiction are you in now?

I recently joined HOTCA/GOC

Then your opinion kinda doesn't matter.

Anymore than Fr. Giyrus' ??

Fr. Giryus remains a member of the Orthodox Church. He is in communion with the OCA and also has familiarity with the situation in question. He also isn't screaming for the OCA to be disbanded.

Fr. Giryus seems to be ignoring the problems that are rampant in the OCA perhaps not in the Diocese of the South right now, but everywhere else. The DOS needs prayers that they might find a truly Orthodox Bishop, otherwise they may be in for a rude awakening.

Yes, I am speaking out because my friends have been silenced by their priests who have been preaching from the pulpits: telling them to be blindly obedient, to ignore this forum and all the internet "gossip," and to ignore the problems that plague the OCA: improper jokes during communion, openly homosexuals receiving communion, etc.

You keep repeating very serious allegations that are partly your eyewitness and partly hearsay. I am forced to invoke the following rule: "* References & Proof -- Occasionally a moderator will make a formal request (i.e. in green font, explicitly stating that they're asking as a mod and not a user) for clarification of a point, references to support a point, or "proof" of an assertion made in the course of discussion.  Sometimes this request will come with a "time limit" or other stipulation requesting expediency."

Therefore, I am requesting that you provide corroborating evidence for each of the specific allegations that you have made. I have isolated them by the letters (a) through (f) below:

"my friends have been (a) silenced by their priests who have been preaching from the pulpits: (b) telling them to be blindly obedient, (c) to ignore this forum and all the internet "gossip," and (d) to ignore the problems that plague the OCA: (e) improper jokes during communion, (f) openly homosexuals receiving communion..."

You have 72 hours to provide us with the requested input. If you not have the corroborating evidence yet, you must provide us with the source whence your allegation came. If you need to name names, please  obtain their permission first.

Until you have provided the requested information, you may not repeat such allegations from now on. If you do, you will be put on post moderation.

Thanks, Carl Kraeff, Section Moderator


To any who have been offended or scandalized by anything I have submitted to this site, my deepest apology.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on September 14, 2012, 07:51:31 AM
Maria, what jurisdiction are you in now?

I recently joined HOTCA/GOC

Then your opinion kinda doesn't matter.

Anymore than Fr. Giyrus' ??

Fr. Giryus remains a member of the Orthodox Church. He is in communion with the OCA and also has familiarity with the situation in question. He also isn't screaming for the OCA to be disbanded.

Fr. Giryus seems to be ignoring the problems that are rampant in the OCA perhaps not in the Diocese of the South right now, but everywhere else. The DOS needs prayers that they might find a truly Orthodox Bishop, otherwise they may be in for a rude awakening.

Yes, I am speaking out because my friends have been silenced by their priests who have been preaching from the pulpits: telling them to be blindly obedient, to ignore this forum and all the internet "gossip," and to ignore the problems that plague the OCA: improper jokes during communion, openly homosexuals receiving communion, etc.

You keep repeating very serious allegations that are partly your eyewitness and partly hearsay. I am forced to invoke the following rule: "* References & Proof -- Occasionally a moderator will make a formal request (i.e. in green font, explicitly stating that they're asking as a mod and not a user) for clarification of a point, references to support a point, or "proof" of an assertion made in the course of discussion.  Sometimes this request will come with a "time limit" or other stipulation requesting expediency."

Therefore, I am requesting that you provide corroborating evidence for each of the specific allegations that you have made. I have isolated them by the letters (a) through (f) below:

"my friends have been (a) silenced by their priests who have been preaching from the pulpits: (b) telling them to be blindly obedient, (c) to ignore this forum and all the internet "gossip," and (d) to ignore the problems that plague the OCA: (e) improper jokes during communion, (f) openly homosexuals receiving communion..."

You have 72 hours to provide us with the requested input. If you not have the corroborating evidence yet, you must provide us with the source whence your allegation came. If you need to name names, please  obtain their permission first.

Until you have provided the requested information, you may not repeat such allegations from now on. If you do, you will be put on post moderation.

Thanks, Carl Kraeff, Section Moderator

e
To any who have been offended or scandalized by anything I have submitted to this site, my deepest apology.
Maria and I have been talking via PM for the past three days. I am convinced that she will find a way to make things right. Indeed, she is coordinating her final input with her jurisdictional authorities. I am therefore satisfied with her apology to date and her private assurances to me that she will not make such allegations in the future. Thanks, Second Chance
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: BoredMeeting on September 18, 2012, 11:57:02 AM
The more I reflect on everything that has happened, the less comfortable I am concerning how Metropolitan Jonah was treated.
Reflect on "everything that has happened", or learn more about what happened? To reflect on something is to meditate on a body of knowledge that remains static--you're not acquiring more information, you're merely ruminating on the information you already have, which may not be much. I think it much better you strive to learn more about what happened. Then if you feel increasingly uncomfortable, it will at least be based on a greater knowledge of the situation.

Both actually, but thank you anyway for the refresher in English vocabulary. I can assure you I remember my lessons from Junior High.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: orthonorm on September 18, 2012, 12:15:02 PM
Post to view ratio.

More than just oc.netters reading this space.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: orthonorm on September 18, 2012, 12:16:58 PM
Maria, what jurisdiction are you in now?

I recently joined HOTCA/GOC

Then your opinion kinda doesn't matter.

Anymore than Fr. Giyrus' ??

Fr. Giryus remains a member of the Orthodox Church. He is in communion with the OCA and also has familiarity with the situation in question. He also isn't screaming for the OCA to be disbanded.

Fr. Giryus seems to be ignoring the problems that are rampant in the OCA perhaps not in the Diocese of the South right now, but everywhere else. The DOS needs prayers that they might find a truly Orthodox Bishop, otherwise they may be in for a rude awakening.

Yes, I am speaking out because my friends have been silenced by their priests who have been preaching from the pulpits: telling them to be blindly obedient, to ignore this forum and all the internet "gossip," and to ignore the problems that plague the OCA: improper jokes during communion, openly homosexuals receiving communion, etc.

You keep repeating very serious allegations that are partly your eyewitness and partly hearsay. I am forced to invoke the following rule: "* References & Proof -- Occasionally a moderator will make a formal request (i.e. in green font, explicitly stating that they're asking as a mod and not a user) for clarification of a point, references to support a point, or "proof" of an assertion made in the course of discussion.  Sometimes this request will come with a "time limit" or other stipulation requesting expediency."

Therefore, I am requesting that you provide corroborating evidence for each of the specific allegations that you have made. I have isolated them by the letters (a) through (f) below:

"my friends have been (a) silenced by their priests who have been preaching from the pulpits: (b) telling them to be blindly obedient, (c) to ignore this forum and all the internet "gossip," and (d) to ignore the problems that plague the OCA: (e) improper jokes during communion, (f) openly homosexuals receiving communion..."

You have 72 hours to provide us with the requested input. If you not have the corroborating evidence yet, you must provide us with the source whence your allegation came. If you need to name names, please  obtain their permission first.

Until you have provided the requested information, you may not repeat such allegations from now on. If you do, you will be put on post moderation.

Thanks, Carl Kraeff, Section Moderator

e
To any who have been offended or scandalized by anything I have submitted to this site, my deepest apology.
Maria and I have been talking via PM for the past three days. I am convinced that she will find a way to make things right. Indeed, she is coordinating her final input with her jurisdictional authorities. I am therefore satisfied with her apology to date and her private assurances to me that she will not make such allegations in the future. Thanks, Second Chance

Maria seems to be nothing if not sincere and well meaning. I hope this don't fall into commentary on moderatorial decisions.

I am just saying.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on September 18, 2012, 02:39:32 PM
Maria, what jurisdiction are you in now?

I recently joined HOTCA/GOC

Then your opinion kinda doesn't matter.

Anymore than Fr. Giyrus' ??

Fr. Giryus remains a member of the Orthodox Church. He is in communion with the OCA and also has familiarity with the situation in question. He also isn't screaming for the OCA to be disbanded.

Fr. Giryus seems to be ignoring the problems that are rampant in the OCA perhaps not in the Diocese of the South right now, but everywhere else. The DOS needs prayers that they might find a truly Orthodox Bishop, otherwise they may be in for a rude awakening.

Yes, I am speaking out because my friends have been silenced by their priests who have been preaching from the pulpits: telling them to be blindly obedient, to ignore this forum and all the internet "gossip," and to ignore the problems that plague the OCA: improper jokes during communion, openly homosexuals receiving communion, etc.

You keep repeating very serious allegations that are partly your eyewitness and partly hearsay. I am forced to invoke the following rule: "* References & Proof -- Occasionally a moderator will make a formal request (i.e. in green font, explicitly stating that they're asking as a mod and not a user) for clarification of a point, references to support a point, or "proof" of an assertion made in the course of discussion.  Sometimes this request will come with a "time limit" or other stipulation requesting expediency."

Therefore, I am requesting that you provide corroborating evidence for each of the specific allegations that you have made. I have isolated them by the letters (a) through (f) below:

"my friends have been (a) silenced by their priests who have been preaching from the pulpits: (b) telling them to be blindly obedient, (c) to ignore this forum and all the internet "gossip," and (d) to ignore the problems that plague the OCA: (e) improper jokes during communion, (f) openly homosexuals receiving communion..."

You have 72 hours to provide us with the requested input. If you not have the corroborating evidence yet, you must provide us with the source whence your allegation came. If you need to name names, please  obtain their permission first.

Until you have provided the requested information, you may not repeat such allegations from now on. If you do, you will be put on post moderation.

Thanks, Carl Kraeff, Section Moderator

e
To any who have been offended or scandalized by anything I have submitted to this site, my deepest apology.
Maria and I have been talking via PM for the past three days. I am convinced that she will find a way to make things right. Indeed, she is coordinating her final input with her jurisdictional authorities. I am therefore satisfied with her apology to date and her private assurances to me that she will not make such allegations in the future. Thanks, Second Chance

Maria seems to be nothing if not sincere and well meaning. I hope this don't fall into commentary on moderatorial decisions.

I am just saying.

I am interpreting your comment to be nothing more than a compliment of a fellow poster.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on September 18, 2012, 02:54:09 PM
There is letter that has appeared on Monomakhos, from someone who says he is +Jonah's lawyer: Rev. Canon Charles H. Nalls, J.D., M.Th., S.T.B., S.T.L., Vice-Chancellor of the St Elias Seminary and Graduate School, which is headed by Most Rev. Seraphim, Archbishop of the Eparchy of Old Dominion and senior member of the Holy synod of the America's.

Does anyone know about the status of this jurisdiction?

Relevant links are:

http://www.monomakhos.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/nalls-letter-2.pdf (http://www.monomakhos.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/nalls-letter-2.pdf)

http://www.steliasseminary.org/#!__about-us/directory (http://www.steliasseminary.org/#!__about-us/directory)

http://www.olddominioneparchy.org/eparchy/about-the-eparchy-2 (http://www.olddominioneparchy.org/eparchy/about-the-eparchy-2)

http://holysynodoftheamericas.org/holy-synod/ (http://holysynodoftheamericas.org/holy-synod/)
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: tuesdayschild on September 18, 2012, 03:15:15 PM
Why not ask Rev. Canon Charles H. Nalls (http://www.saintalbansrichmond.org/leadership-and-contact-information) about the status of that jurisdiction and his relationship to it? He seems perfectly willing to reply to queries.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on September 18, 2012, 03:23:19 PM
Why not ask Rev. Canon Charles H. Nalls (http://www.saintalbansrichmond.org/leadership-and-contact-information) about the status of that jurisdiction and his relationship to it? He seems perfectly willing to reply to queries.

Thanks for the link. It appears that The Reverent Canon Nalls belongs to the Anglican Catholic Church, Diocese of the Mid-Atlantic States. His bio does not list his employment by the St Elias Seminary and Graduate School, but I suppose it would not be odd for an Anglican to be so employed by the Old Dominion Eparchy of the Holy Synod of the Americas. All along I was thinking that +Jonah had possibly hired a vagante as his lawyer; it turns out he is just an Anglican Catholic. My bad.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: tuesdayschild on September 18, 2012, 03:36:17 PM
Can you imagine if he had hired a canonical Orthodox Christian to be his lawyer? How might it have further complicated relations between the jurisdictions if a lawyer from the GOA, for example, were to advise and represent him?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Shlomlokh on September 18, 2012, 04:15:58 PM
I just saw Metropolitan Jonah at St. John the Baptist in DC on Sunday. He concelebrated with Met. Hilarion and was commemorated in the liturgy as "His Beatitude, Metropolitan Jonah of Washinton and New York" if I remember correctly. I don't know if that helps quell the rumor mongering or inflames it. :/

In Christ,
Andrew
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on September 18, 2012, 04:44:27 PM
I just saw Metropolitan Jonah at St. John the Baptist in DC on Sunday. He concelebrated with Met. Hilarion and was commemorated in the liturgy as "His Beatitude, Metropolitan Jonah of Washinton and New York" if I remember correctly. I don't know if that helps quell the rumor mongering or inflames it. :/

In Christ,
Andrew
That is very interesting. My impression was that once a OCA Primate resigned, he would be called His Eminence and not His Beautitude (only when OCA Primate retired in office, would he would still be called His Beautitude). I would also note that +Jonah formally resigned as Primate and Metropolitan Bishop (Archbishop) as he asked for another episcopal assignment; ergo, he is no longer Metropolitan of All America and Archbishop of Washington. I wonder why he is allowing himself to be called by the wrong honorifics and titles? I also wonder why ROCOR folks, who are such sticklers for just about everything, are doing this?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on September 18, 2012, 04:46:48 PM
Can you imagine if he had hired a canonical Orthodox Christian to be his lawyer? How might it have further complicated relations between the jurisdictions if a lawyer from the GOA, for example, were to advise and represent him?

First, he should not have lawyered up. Second, it just looks and smells bad when he goes outside Orthodoxy. Does he not have any sense of ecclesiastical propriety?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: tuesdayschild on September 18, 2012, 05:52:00 PM
Can you imagine if he had hired a canonical Orthodox Christian to be his lawyer? How might it have further complicated relations between the jurisdictions if a lawyer from the GOA, for example, were to advise and represent him?

First, he should not have lawyered up. Second, it just looks and smells bad when he goes outside Orthodoxy. Does he not have any sense of ecclesiastical propriety?

Oh, has a lawsuit been filed? Will the case be judged by an unbeliever? I did not know. Otherwise, meh.

I pay an accountant to do my taxes and an electrician to do my wiring, and I'll pay a lawyer to sort through the fine print should I ever need one (God forbid!), even if it happened to concern a contractual issue between friends. It's just expertise.

As to what sort of sense he has, I can't guess, except to observe that he often spoke off-the-cuff and had to back-pedal, so having a lawyer speak for him is arguably an improvement.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on September 18, 2012, 08:43:32 PM
Can you imagine if he had hired a canonical Orthodox Christian to be his lawyer? How might it have further complicated relations between the jurisdictions if a lawyer from the GOA, for example, were to advise and represent him?

First, he should not have lawyered up. Second, it just looks and smells bad when he goes outside Orthodoxy. Does he not have any sense of ecclesiastical propriety?

Oh, has a lawsuit been filed? Will the case be judged by an unbeliever? I did not know. Otherwise, meh.

I pay an accountant to do my taxes and an electrician to do my wiring, and I'll pay a lawyer to sort through the fine print should I ever need one (God forbid!), even if it happened to concern a contractual issue between friends. It's just expertise.

As to what sort of sense he has, I can't guess, except to observe that he often spoke off-the-cuff and had to back-pedal, so having a lawyer speak for him is arguably an improvement.

About the lawyering, what you say makes sense to me. As you know, however, it is something that the Scriptures talk against.  Not a good place for a bishop to be--in contravention to the Holy Scriptures that he is supposed to be upholding. OTH, perhaps he is already thinking about quitting, becoming a regular guy?

The second point I made was to point out in the gentlest possible way that if you hold  yourself up to be an Orthodox bishop, you do not cavort with the heterodox.

Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: podkarpatska on September 18, 2012, 09:11:50 PM
Can you imagine if he had hired a canonical Orthodox Christian to be his lawyer? How might it have further complicated relations between the jurisdictions if a lawyer from the GOA, for example, were to advise and represent him?

First, he should not have lawyered up. Second, it just looks and smells bad when he goes outside Orthodoxy. Does he not have any sense of ecclesiastical propriety?

Oh, has a lawsuit been filed? Will the case be judged by an unbeliever? I did not know. Otherwise, meh.

I pay an accountant to do my taxes and an electrician to do my wiring, and I'll pay a lawyer to sort through the fine print should I ever need one (God forbid!), even if it happened to concern a contractual issue between friends. It's just expertise.

As to what sort of sense he has, I can't guess, except to observe that he often spoke off-the-cuff and had to back-pedal, so having a lawyer speak for him is arguably an improvement.

About the lawyering, what you say makes sense to me. As you know, however, it is something that the Scriptures talk against.  Not a good place for a bishop to be--in contravention to the Holy Scriptures that he is supposed to be upholding. OTH, perhaps he is already thinking about quitting, becoming a regular guy?

The second point I made was to point out in the gentlest possible way that if you hold  yourself up to be an Orthodox bishop, you do not cavort with the heterodox.



Sigh... the gentlest of phrasing will not convince those who would return Metropolitan Jonah to the 'helm' of the OCA that such a desire is not likely to come to fruition - at least not without a schism within the OCA resulting in the 'dispatching' of a majority of the current Synod and what would probably be a century's worth of ostracization from the rest of North American Orthodoxy of what would remain.

No matter how much self-loathing the primary mover of Monomakos has regarding his own  Greek heritage and no matter how much he and his followers wish it were so, administrative unity of North American Orthodoxy is just not going to happen on their terms and the OCA's synod knows and accepts that reality.(That is pretty clear from the communique signed last week by all Bishops present, including the four representing the OCA.)  I sense that is the real agenda behind the outward fight going publicly. Sadly, I really don't think that the Metropolitan himself is really part of this 'dream' but is just the man caught up in events.

Frankly, my legal mind has a tough time finding a way to fit the relationship between an Orthodox bishop and his Orthodox jurisdiction into any legally cognizable construction of American contract law. I would be shocked if an American civil court in any secular jurisdiction were to find a basis for a sustainable cause of action which could be maintained under current case law and which could result in an award of monetary damages.
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: Schultz on September 18, 2012, 10:30:45 PM
Can you imagine if he had hired a canonical Orthodox Christian to be his lawyer? How might it have further complicated relations between the jurisdictions if a lawyer from the GOA, for example, were to advise and represent him?

First, he should not have lawyered up. Second, it just looks and smells bad when he goes outside Orthodoxy. Does he not have any sense of ecclesiastical propriety?

Oh, has a lawsuit been filed? Will the case be judged by an unbeliever? I did not know. Otherwise, meh.

I pay an accountant to do my taxes and an electrician to do my wiring, and I'll pay a lawyer to sort through the fine print should I ever need one (God forbid!), even if it happened to concern a contractual issue between friends. It's just expertise.

As to what sort of sense he has, I can't guess, except to observe that he often spoke off-the-cuff and had to back-pedal, so having a lawyer speak for him is arguably an improvement.

About the lawyering, what you say makes sense to me. As you know, however, it is something that the Scriptures talk against.  Not a good place for a bishop to be--in contravention to the Holy Scriptures that he is supposed to be upholding. OTH, perhaps he is already thinking about quitting, becoming a regular guy?

The second point I made was to point out in the gentlest possible way that if you hold  yourself up to be an Orthodox bishop, you do not cavort with the heterodox.



Sigh... the gentlest of phrasing will not convince those who would return Metropolitan Jonah to the 'helm' of the OCA that such a desire is not likely to come to fruition - at least not without a schism within the OCA resulting in the 'dispatching' of a majority of the current Synod and what would probably be a century's worth of ostracization from the rest of North American Orthodoxy of what would remain.

No matter how much self-loathing the primary mover of Monomakos has regarding his own  Greek heritage and no matter how much he and his followers wish it were so, administrative unity of North American Orthodoxy is just not going to happen on their terms and the OCA's synod knows and accepts that reality.(That is pretty clear from the communique signed last week by all Bishops present, including the four representing the OCA.)  I sense that is the real agenda behind the outward fight going publicly. Sadly, I really don't think that the Metropolitan himself is really part of this 'dream' but is just the man caught up in events.

Frankly, my legal mind has a tough time finding a way to fit the relationship between an Orthodox bishop and his Orthodox jurisdiction into any legally cognizable construction of American contract law. I would be shocked if an American civil court in any secular jurisdiction were to find a basis for a sustainable cause of action which could be maintained under current case law and which could result in an award of monetary damages.

Give that man a seee-gar!
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: witega on September 19, 2012, 01:20:59 AM
First, he should not have lawyered up. Second, it just looks and smells bad when he goes outside Orthodoxy. Does he not have any sense of ecclesiastical propriety?

Oh, has a lawsuit been filed? Will the case be judged by an unbeliever? I did not know. Otherwise, meh.

I pay an accountant to do my taxes and an electrician to do my wiring, and I'll pay a lawyer to sort through the fine print should I ever need one (God forbid!), even if it happened to concern a contractual issue between friends. It's just expertise.

As to what sort of sense he has, I can't guess, except to observe that he often spoke off-the-cuff and had to back-pedal, so having a lawyer speak for him is arguably an improvement.
[/quote]

About the lawyering, what you say makes sense to me. As you know, however, it is something that the Scriptures talk against.  [/quote]

Where? The Scripture speaks against taking your fellow believers to court. It says absolutely nothing against having a lawyer (as the OCA and every other autocephalous church as well as most dioceses do).

Quote
Not a good place for a bishop to be--in contravention to the Holy Scriptures that he is supposed to be upholding. OTH, perhaps he is already thinking about quitting, becoming a regular guy?

What Scripture is Metropolitan Jonah 'in contravention of'? i.e., can you substantiate that claim, particularly given how quick you are to demand such of others?
Title: Re: Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases
Post by: tuesdayschild on September 19, 2012, 08:39:16 AM