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Moderated Forums => Free-For-All => Religious Topics => Topic started by: augustin717 on June 30, 2012, 05:41:57 PM

Title: Imperfect Clergy
Post by: augustin717 on June 30, 2012, 05:41:57 PM
Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: PeterTheAleut on June 30, 2012, 05:49:42 PM
Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy: a life lived in accordance with the Gospel.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: augustin717 on June 30, 2012, 05:51:32 PM
Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Maria on June 30, 2012, 05:54:30 PM
Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.

How can you guarantee that a little evil doesn't breed more serious evils?

Since this fallen priest was in the Army and served in the police department, he might not have been a pervert until later.

An OCA priest gave an excellent Lenten retreat where he mapped out how men/women fall into sins of greed, gluttony, lust, and ultimately perversions of all kinds. It is a gradual process, but a downward spiral, whereby the nous becomes darkened leading to more serious sins to satisfy the passions.

This fallen priest needs our prayers and so do his victims.



Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: PeterTheAleut on June 30, 2012, 05:55:09 PM
Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.
If that's Orthodoxy, then I want nothing to do with it and am very happy the OP wants nothing to do with it.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: augustin717 on June 30, 2012, 05:57:30 PM
Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.

How can you guarantee that a little evil doesn't breed more serious evils?

If this fallen priest was in the Army and served in the police department, he might not have been a pervert until later.

An OCA priest gave an excellent Lenten retreat where he mapped out how men/women fall into sins of greed, gluttony, lust, and ultimately perversions of all kinds. It is a gradual process, but a downward spiral, whereby the nous becomes darkened leading to more serious sins to satisfy the passions.

This fallen priests needs our prayers and so do his victims.




Well, take it from me, but I would suspect someone of unspeakable perversions, as soon as "nous" came out of their mouth. :o
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: akimori makoto on June 30, 2012, 06:05:18 PM
Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.

This is getting so boring, honestly.

Can't you just copy and paste this into the beginning every post like Habte does so that I can skip to the actual content?
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Michael36 on June 30, 2012, 06:08:34 PM


The one thing we seem to discard now a days, is that of demonic possession.  In all cases such as this, as well as the murders of innocents, it's the first thing that comes into my mind.   :(
No, he wasn't possessed, influenced maybe like Fr. George said. I've known at least one possessed person in my life and this man was not possessed. It just astonishes me how he could have such a double life, but this is what sin does, especially perversions.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: augustin717 on June 30, 2012, 06:12:36 PM
Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.

This is getting so boring, honestly.

Can't you just copy and paste this into the beginning every post like Habte does so that I can skip to the actual content?
Can't you just skip my posts as I do with yours?
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: SDMPNS on June 30, 2012, 06:14:50 PM
[
"Since this fallen priest was in the Army and served in the police department, he might not have been a pervert until later. "

I work with children who have been sexual abused as a psychotherapist...The sad news is that for every victim we know about there are about 10 that we don't knoow about..I fear this man has always been a pervert and I fear more victims may come forward...Thank God Bishop Joseph is doing the righht thing and contacted the authorities and didn't switch him to another jurisdiction or diocese as has happened in the past..The Antiochian Diocese of Los Angeles is lucky to have him as is all of Orthodoxy
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: akimori makoto on June 30, 2012, 06:15:47 PM
Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.

This is getting so boring, honestly.

Can't you just copy and paste this into the beginning every post like Habte does so that I can skip to the actual content?
Can't you just skip my posts as I do with yours?

I actually find you otherwise pretty interesting, though lacking in common courtesy.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Michael36 on June 30, 2012, 06:20:41 PM
From what I've gathered talking to people, everyone is shell shocked but holding on. They aren't going to let an obvious attack from the evil one destroy what is true and beautiful; the fullness of the Body of Christ. I'm still worried about the new converts and I know that anti-clerical cradle Orthodox from the old-country are going to say "see! We told you so!". I already see comments on the news articles of, "of course he did this, he's a Priest! What kind of God would allow this.. etc" and I fear that any missionary activity is going to be destroyed.

This is devastating, but I'll get through this. I know that God is with us and watching out for us though. The Epistle and Gospel readings for today give me hope:

"I Corinthians 9:9 For I think that God has displayed us, the apostles, last, as men condemned to death; for we have been made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men. 10 We are fools for Christ’s sake, but you are wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are distinguished, but we are dishonored! 11 To the present hour we both hunger and thirst, and we are poorly clothed, and beaten, and homeless. 12 And we labor, working with our own hands. Being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we endure; 13 being defamed, we entreat. We have been made as the filth of the world, the offscouring of all things until now.14 I do not write these things to shame you, but as my beloved children I warn you. 15 For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. 16 Therefore I urge you, imitate me."

"Matthew 9:36 But when He saw the multitudes, He was moved with compassion for them, because they were weary and scattered, like sheep having no shepherd. 37 Then He said to His disciples, “The harvest truly is plentiful, but the laborers are few. 38 Therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.”10 And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him. 5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead,[d] cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give."
I honestly didn't understand why Christ only went to the Israelites first. There was a time when I thought that was ethnocentric, but I get it now.

I want to thank everyone for their support, council, and prayers.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: OrthoNoob on June 30, 2012, 06:21:07 PM
Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy: a life lived in accordance with the Gospel.

Maybe this applies?

(http://www.howardforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=73781&d=1317712133)
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: NicholasMyra on June 30, 2012, 06:33:10 PM
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy: a life lived in accordance with the Gospel.
...
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: ialmisry on June 30, 2012, 06:44:54 PM
Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
Were your teachers [the REAL hot bed of child molesters] as tipsy, womanizing...? it would explain a lot.

Come to think of it, most of the communist party members, comisars and commandants in Romania were tipsy, womanizing (usually more than a bit), bored by "spirituality" and even political philosophy, and selling, you know, everything.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Shiny on June 30, 2012, 06:45:36 PM
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy: a life lived in accordance with the Gospel.
...
ROFL
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: JamesRottnek on June 30, 2012, 07:04:18 PM


The one thing we seem to discard now a days, is that of demonic possession.  In all cases such as this, as well as the murders of innocents, it's the first thing that comes into my mind.   :(
No, he wasn't possessed, influenced maybe like Fr. George said. I've known at least one possessed person in my life and this man was not possessed. It just astonishes me how he could have such a double life, but this is what sin does, especially perversions.

All sin is perversion.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: JamesRottnek on June 30, 2012, 07:04:18 PM
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy: a life lived in accordance with the Gospel.
...

I had been thinking, lately, that your posts were lacking some of their former poignancy, but you have certainly changed my mind 180 degrees.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Zenovia on June 30, 2012, 09:43:44 PM
Dear Mikha'el,

All of us are shocked and depressed.  This was a serious betrayal.

What gives me hope is that we saw the Church act quickly and appropriately: the youth director immediately reported the situation, and the Church stepped up and not only contacted the police but deposed the man without hesitation.  I think you will see healing come quickly because of these steps.  The victims were given priority, and will continue to receive compassion from the Church.

As for the predator, we can only hope that he repents and receives the forgiveness he preached about.  It is tragic that he could not get out of the Church what he gave others, but I think this is less about him and more about the power of God and the truth of the Orthodox Faith.  The faith does not depend on the strength of us weak humans, because the truth is the truth no matter what.

I had a hard time sleeping last night because of this.  I saw this man only a few weeks ago, and it is hard to believe that this is the same person.  He's an Army vet and retired police officer... not categories you connect with such depravity.  Yet, I do not doubt the accusations for an instant, because I know the deacon there and I trust that Archbishop Joseph had the evidence.  His Eminence does not mess around in these situations.  Years ago, he told us in a deanery meeting (after another high-profile case came up in the news) that he would call the police if he suspected any of us were doing anything like this.  I remember it clearly because of how animated he became.  Yesterday, he proved that he was not kidding.

We all would do well to pray for the victims, the people of St. Timothy who have a long road to recovery ahead, and all those adversely affected by this situation.  I think that would include the abuser himself, who is now greatly shamed and humiliated, as this might give him the opportunity to repent now and prepare his conscience before he passes into Eternal Judgment as all of us will.
Thank you Father, I truly am proud to call Archbishop Joseph my hierarch. I just can't fathom how he could live a double life like that. I find myself wondering, does he even believe in God? How could you enter the altar knowing you did that without literal fear and trembling? I only ever felt sincerity from the man, and he took sin very seriously.

 God has preserved me from the worst of this, for some reason, in that I wasn't there to see the Church fall apart (I would trade places with any one of them; they deserve it more) and He has brought me to another beautiful Church with sincere lovers of Christ.

A friend posted something on Facebook that really cut to the heart of this issue and how to move forward:
"Believe to the end, even if all men went astray and you were left the only one faithful; bring your offering even then and praise God in your loneliness"- Fyodor Dostoevsky "The Brothers Karamazov"

The one thing we seem to discard now a days, is that of demonic possession.  In all cases such as this, as well as the murders of innocents, it's the first thing that comes into my mind.   :(
The Devil made me do it: did that work for Eve?

Nah it didn't work for Eve, but possession is different.  One's body is taken over, or rather given over out of weakness, so they are not really in control of their actions.  In cases like that, is the person that commits the crime  more guilty or less guilty in the eyes of God, than a person that commits a crime through their own will?  As for the law, they would be guilty either way.    :(
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: ialmisry on June 30, 2012, 10:07:59 PM
Dear Mikha'el,

All of us are shocked and depressed.  This was a serious betrayal.

What gives me hope is that we saw the Church act quickly and appropriately: the youth director immediately reported the situation, and the Church stepped up and not only contacted the police but deposed the man without hesitation.  I think you will see healing come quickly because of these steps.  The victims were given priority, and will continue to receive compassion from the Church.

As for the predator, we can only hope that he repents and receives the forgiveness he preached about.  It is tragic that he could not get out of the Church what he gave others, but I think this is less about him and more about the power of God and the truth of the Orthodox Faith.  The faith does not depend on the strength of us weak humans, because the truth is the truth no matter what.

I had a hard time sleeping last night because of this.  I saw this man only a few weeks ago, and it is hard to believe that this is the same person.  He's an Army vet and retired police officer... not categories you connect with such depravity.  Yet, I do not doubt the accusations for an instant, because I know the deacon there and I trust that Archbishop Joseph had the evidence.  His Eminence does not mess around in these situations.  Years ago, he told us in a deanery meeting (after another high-profile case came up in the news) that he would call the police if he suspected any of us were doing anything like this.  I remember it clearly because of how animated he became.  Yesterday, he proved that he was not kidding.

We all would do well to pray for the victims, the people of St. Timothy who have a long road to recovery ahead, and all those adversely affected by this situation.  I think that would include the abuser himself, who is now greatly shamed and humiliated, as this might give him the opportunity to repent now and prepare his conscience before he passes into Eternal Judgment as all of us will.
Thank you Father, I truly am proud to call Archbishop Joseph my hierarch. I just can't fathom how he could live a double life like that. I find myself wondering, does he even believe in God? How could you enter the altar knowing you did that without literal fear and trembling? I only ever felt sincerity from the man, and he took sin very seriously.

 God has preserved me from the worst of this, for some reason, in that I wasn't there to see the Church fall apart (I would trade places with any one of them; they deserve it more) and He has brought me to another beautiful Church with sincere lovers of Christ.

A friend posted something on Facebook that really cut to the heart of this issue and how to move forward:
"Believe to the end, even if all men went astray and you were left the only one faithful; bring your offering even then and praise God in your loneliness"- Fyodor Dostoevsky "The Brothers Karamazov"

The one thing we seem to discard now a days, is that of demonic possession.  In all cases such as this, as well as the murders of innocents, it's the first thing that comes into my mind.   :(
The Devil made me do it: did that work for Eve?

Nah it didn't work for Eve, but possession is different.  One's body is taken over, or rather given over out of weakness, so they are not really in control of their actions.  In cases like that, is the person that commits the crime  more guilty or less guilty in the eyes of God, than a person that commits a crime through their own will?  As for the law, they would be guilty either way.    :(
In the law, they claim insanity, and no, I'm not persuaded by that any more than possession claims, absent damn good evidence.  "Resist the Devil and he will flee" St. James the Brother of God tells us in Scripture.  People are quite capable of quite horrible things without the aid of the Devil.  All those killings, murders, rapes, butchering etc. in Scripture, and Scripture only records the Devil going into someone with Judas.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: ialmisry on June 30, 2012, 10:10:01 PM
Wish the bishop would have taken him on a boat trip and tied a millstone to his neck and cast him under.
Funny how the most vocal advocates for Christianity and against heresy on this forum are also among the first to make the anti-Christian call for someone's death when he molests little children. ::)
What makes you say it is anti-Christian to call for someone's death when he molests little children?
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: ialmisry on June 30, 2012, 10:12:59 PM
Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.
odd, I know plenty of Romanians Orthodox from back home, and none of them have the memories of it that you do.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: augustin717 on June 30, 2012, 10:17:11 PM
Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.
odd, I know plenty of Romanians Orthodox from back home, and none of them have the memories of it that you do.
Those that frequent the same places like you, I suspect are  given to much embellishing, pious fabrications etc. i mean, forgive me but I saw a Romanian  lady there that looked and behaved like a prude nun. No, priests used to be better or worse, but NONE I knew of put on airs of being a "Spiritual Father".
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Michael36 on June 30, 2012, 10:20:20 PM
Wish the bishop would have taken him on a boat trip and tied a millstone to his neck and cast him under.
Funny how the most vocal advocates for Christianity and against heresy on this forum are also among the first to make the anti-Christian call for someone's death when he molests little children. ::)
What makes you say it is anti-Christian to call for someone's death when he molests little children?
Christ has taught us to forgive(he himself forgave murderers, rapists, etc. I've heard worse crimes in hagiographies), and Paul said to leave vengeance to the Lord.
I am having a difficult time not hating him and I may have to abstain from the chalice tomorrow, but I wish him an unnaturally long life so that his repentance may save him. That's the thing I keep reminding myself of, that the judgment he faces is something the most adamant death penalty proponent would cringe at. He's sick. God help him. The death penalty (which he won't get in California) will only cut short his chance to repent which can be said of any hardened sinner. I cannot in good conscience accept it.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Michael36 on June 30, 2012, 10:23:35 PM
Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.
odd, I know plenty of Romanians Orthodox from back home, and none of them have the memories of it that you do.
Those that frequent the same places like you, I suspect are  given to much embellishing, pious fabrications etc. i mean, forgive me but I saw a Romanian  lady there that looked and behaved like a prude nun. No, priests used to be better or worse, but NONE I knew of put on airs of being a "Spiritual Father".
I go to a Romanian parish now, and I agree with Ialmisry, that hasn't been my experience of Romanians. Spiritual Fatherhood is part of the tradition of the Church. It is why we call our Priests "father". If this was not a practice in the old-country, then they were wrong.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: augustin717 on June 30, 2012, 10:34:59 PM
Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.
odd, I know plenty of Romanians Orthodox from back home, and none of them have the memories of it that you do.
Those that frequent the same places like you, I suspect are  given to much embellishing, pious fabrications etc. i mean, forgive me but I saw a Romanian  lady there that looked and behaved like a prude nun. No, priests used to be better or worse, but NONE I knew of put on airs of being a "Spiritual Father".
I go to a Romanian parish now, and I agree with Ialmisry, that hasn't been my experience of Romanians. Spiritual Fatherhood is part of the tradition of the Church. It is why we call our Priests "father". If this was not a practice in the old-country, then they were wrong.
Hmm, it's because you know, when they get here, those ordinary, "nominal" Orthodox kinda tend to skip[ church even more than they did back home, and then you are left with a concentration of churchier types, which gives you no insight of how things go on in the old country.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on June 30, 2012, 10:50:43 PM
From what I've gathered talking to people, everyone is shell shocked but holding on...<sic>... I want to thank everyone for their support, council, and prayers.

Dear brother, I can only imagine what this must be like.  Major shock mixed with betrayal,...  I love my priest dearly and I would be floored if something like this happened to our parish.  Just continue to pray, as we all are, that when the evidence comes out he will be exonorated.  Remember, there have been many priests, bishops and even saints wrongly accused of crimes they didn't commit.  Pray also for the children whom have been affected.  I pray that the parents haven't latched on to an easy scapegoat as well.  I can imagine that the whole situation is tense with all the emotions; try to stick together as a parish as the Evil One will use this to bring y'all down. 

Lord, have mercy!
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: ialmisry on June 30, 2012, 10:51:44 PM
Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.
odd, I know plenty of Romanians Orthodox from back home, and none of them have the memories of it that you do.
Those that frequent the same places like you

you mean like the Romanian Patriarchal Cathedral?
I suspect are  given to much embellishing, pious fabrications etc. i mean, forgive me but I saw a Romanian  lady there that looked and behaved like a prude nun.
I'd love to have your definitions not only of a "prude nun," but a "non-prude nun" as well.

Dormition Monastery, another place I frequent, is it also full of "prude nuns"?

No, priests used to be better or worse, but NONE I knew of put on airs of being a "Spiritual Father".
I've known of plenty of Romanian priests far better and Romanian priests far worse, but if one is indifferent, I can't expect them to see the difference.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: ialmisry on June 30, 2012, 10:56:33 PM
Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.
odd, I know plenty of Romanians Orthodox from back home, and none of them have the memories of it that you do.
Those that frequent the same places like you, I suspect are  given to much embellishing, pious fabrications etc. i mean, forgive me but I saw a Romanian  lady there that looked and behaved like a prude nun. No, priests used to be better or worse, but NONE I knew of put on airs of being a "Spiritual Father".
I go to a Romanian parish now, and I agree with Ialmisry, that hasn't been my experience of Romanians. Spiritual Fatherhood is part of the tradition of the Church. It is why we call our Priests "father". If this was not a practice in the old-country, then they were wrong.
Hmm, it's because you know, when they get here, those ordinary, "nominal" Orthodox kinda tend to skip[ church even more than they did back home, and then you are left with a concentration of churchier types, which gives you no insight of how things go on in the old country.
Funny, I find more nominal Orthodox coming to Church, if for nothing else to socialize.  Where else are they going to find Romanians?  Although you may be right that those who have axes to grind might be forced by social convention to show their face in Church more often while in the absence of the expectation of Orthodoxy in "diaspora" they vent their spleens as self proclaimed experts and examples of the old country  instead, and stay away from Church.

So instead of savoring the cream of Romania, we have to seek out and drink down the bitter dregs to get a taste of how things go on in the old country?
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: ialmisry on June 30, 2012, 10:58:50 PM
Wish the bishop would have taken him on a boat trip and tied a millstone to his neck and cast him under.
Funny how the most vocal advocates for Christianity and against heresy on this forum are also among the first to make the anti-Christian call for someone's death when he molests little children. ::)
What makes you say it is anti-Christian to call for someone's death when he molests little children?
Christ has taught us to forgive(he himself forgave murderers, rapists, etc. I've heard worse crimes in hagiographies), and Paul said to leave vengeance to the Lord.
I am having a difficult time not hating him and I may have to abstain from the chalice tomorrow, but I wish him an unnaturally long life so that his repentance may save him. That's the thing I keep reminding myself of, that the judgment he faces is something the most adamant death penalty proponent would cringe at. He's sick. God help him. The death penalty (which he won't get in California) will only cut short his chance to repent which can be said of any hardened sinner. I cannot in good conscience accept it.
I'm holding off answering until hearing from PtA.

In the meantime, stick with my first post.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on June 30, 2012, 11:02:47 PM
Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.
odd, I know plenty of Romanians Orthodox from back home, and none of them have the memories of it that you do.
Those that frequent the same places like you, I suspect are  given to much embellishing, pious fabrications etc. i mean, forgive me but I saw a Romanian  lady there that looked and behaved like a prude nun. No, priests used to be better or worse, but NONE I knew of put on airs of being a "Spiritual Father".
I go to a Romanian parish now, and I agree with Ialmisry, that hasn't been my experience of Romanians. Spiritual Fatherhood is part of the tradition of the Church. It is why we call our Priests "father". If this was not a practice in the old-country, then they were wrong.

I agree completely.  But here's something to consider.  Everything I've read about Romanian Orthodoxy squares up with what you and Isa have said.  But, some of the thing's that Augustin says square's up with what I've heard from other Romanian's (I dated a Romanian for nearly 3.5 years.).  I think there's a break with what should be vs. what sometimes is and I'm keen to blame it on Ceausescu and the Securitate;  basically accommodation to secularism due to a climate of terror.    
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: ialmisry on June 30, 2012, 11:09:16 PM
Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.
odd, I know plenty of Romanians Orthodox from back home, and none of them have the memories of it that you do.
Those that frequent the same places like you, I suspect are  given to much embellishing, pious fabrications etc. i mean, forgive me but I saw a Romanian  lady there that looked and behaved like a prude nun. No, priests used to be better or worse, but NONE I knew of put on airs of being a "Spiritual Father".
I go to a Romanian parish now, and I agree with Ialmisry, that hasn't been my experience of Romanians. Spiritual Fatherhood is part of the tradition of the Church. It is why we call our Priests "father". If this was not a practice in the old-country, then they were wrong.

I agree completely.  But here's something to consider.  Everything I've read about Romanian Orthodoxy squares up with what you and Isa have said.  But, some of the thing's that Augustin says square's up with what I've heard from other Romanian's (I dated a Romanian for nearly 3.5 years.).  I think there's a break with what should be vs. what sometimes is and I'm keen to blame it on Ceausescu and the Securitate;  basically accommodation to secularism due to a climate of terror.    
Oh, I don't deny that instances occur as Augustine portrays it.  He however explains away the flower of Romanian Orthodoxy as the aberration.  And celebrates the thorns as something to embrace.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on June 30, 2012, 11:18:35 PM
Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.
odd, I know plenty of Romanians Orthodox from back home, and none of them have the memories of it that you do.
Those that frequent the same places like you, I suspect are  given to much embellishing, pious fabrications etc. i mean, forgive me but I saw a Romanian  lady there that looked and behaved like a prude nun. No, priests used to be better or worse, but NONE I knew of put on airs of being a "Spiritual Father".
I go to a Romanian parish now, and I agree with Ialmisry, that hasn't been my experience of Romanians. Spiritual Fatherhood is part of the tradition of the Church. It is why we call our Priests "father". If this was not a practice in the old-country, then they were wrong.

I agree completely.  But here's something to consider.  Everything I've read about Romanian Orthodoxy squares up with what you and Isa have said.  But, some of the thing's that Augustin says square's up with what I've heard from other Romanian's (I dated a Romanian for nearly 3.5 years.).  I think there's a break with what should be vs. what sometimes is and I'm keen to blame it on Ceausescu and the Securitate;  basically accommodation to secularism due to a climate of terror.    
Oh, I don't deny that instances occur as Augustine portrays it.  He however explains away the flower of Romanian Orthodoxy as the aberration.  And celebrates the thorns as something to embrace.

You picked up on that too, huh?  ;)
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Michael36 on June 30, 2012, 11:59:11 PM
Just continue to pray, as we all are, that when the evidence comes out he will be exonorated.  Remember, there have been many priests, bishops and even saints wrongly accused of crimes they didn't commit.  Pray also for the children whom have been affected.  I pray that the parents haven't latched on to an easy scapegoat as well.  I can imagine that the whole situation is tense with all the emotions; try to stick together as a parish as the Evil One will use this to bring y'all down. 

Lord, have mercy!
He did it. They found pictures he took of the victims naked and "some were very graphic".

I have my concerns about some of the nominal cradles, and unsteady converts, but the core of the Church will continue to support each other. That Church remains a holy place, and now I recognize that it's been the Laity, our deacons, and our Archbishop who have made the place holy, not the deposed Pastor who even at his lowest could not defile that place. I'm afraid to say, the Church will probably just be for the true faithful there now. This is all over the news; who will convert now?
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: orthonorm on July 01, 2012, 12:00:20 AM
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy: a life lived in accordance with the Gospel.
...

.sig worthy
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Michael36 on July 01, 2012, 12:04:03 AM
Although you may be right that those who have axes to grind might be forced by social convention to show their face in Church more often while in the absence of the expectation of Orthodoxy in "diaspora" they vent their spleens as self proclaimed experts and examples of the old country  instead, and stay away from Church.

Naturally, that disgusting blog "Voices from Russia" made a post about the scandal at the Church. That blog is straight from hell and I don't want to be so much as in the same State as that person when Christ comes again. I could have spit acid at the screen.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: orthonorm on July 01, 2012, 12:05:08 AM
Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.

This is getting so boring, honestly.

Can't you just copy and paste this into the beginning every post like Habte does so that I can skip to the actual content?

Reading the truth over and over does get tiring for those in denial.

And Habte doesn't cut and paste that stuff, at least some of the time, as I have read typos in his greeting before. Strange but true nevertheless.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: orthonorm on July 01, 2012, 12:13:04 AM
Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.

This is getting so boring, honestly.

Can't you just copy and paste this into the beginning every post like Habte does so that I can skip to the actual content?
Can't you just skip my posts as I do with yours?

I actually find you otherwise pretty interesting, though lacking in common courtesy.

What you call common courtesy, I call run of the mill duplicity. At least some posters here are straight up enough on the board and in PMs others whether I like what they say or usually not that I know they ain't full of it.

Others, well the cute and polite schtick runs very thin.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: orthonorm on July 01, 2012, 12:16:33 AM
Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.
odd, I know plenty of Romanians Orthodox from back home, and none of them have the memories of it that you do.
Those that frequent the same places like you, I suspect are  given to much embellishing, pious fabrications etc. i mean, forgive me but I saw a Romanian  lady there that looked and behaved like a prude nun. No, priests used to be better or worse, but NONE I knew of put on airs of being a "Spiritual Father".
I go to a Romanian parish now, and I agree with Ialmisry, that hasn't been my experience of Romanians. Spiritual Fatherhood is part of the tradition of the Church. It is why we call our Priests "father". If this was not a practice in the old-country, then they were wrong.

I agree completely.  But here's something to consider.  Everything I've read about Romanian Orthodoxy squares up with what you and Isa have said.  But, some of the thing's that Augustin says square's up with what I've heard from other Romanian's (I dated a Romanian for nearly 3.5 years.).  I think there's a break with what should be vs. what sometimes is and I'm keen to blame it on Ceausescu and the Securitate;  basically accommodation to secularism due to a climate of terror.    

Read your post while I was writing this. I too dated a Romanian for some time and have lived amoung them and have contact with them frequently and . . .

Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.
odd, I know plenty of Romanians Orthodox from back home, and none of them have the memories of it that you do.
Those that frequent the same places like you, I suspect are  given to much embellishing, pious fabrications etc. i mean, forgive me but I saw a Romanian  lady there that looked and behaved like a prude nun. No, priests used to be better or worse, but NONE I knew of put on airs of being a "Spiritual Father".

Been to Romania and spoken with many Romanians. And the weight of the evidence falls to augustin. The Romanians I've met not matter how folksy pious whatever they are they are the first to poo poo this spiritual father nonsense as well. I've heard at least a dozen stories of the ueber pious Romanian seeking a "spiritual father" and the unhappy outcome as a cautionary tale.

Could be regional or whatever as most of the Romanians I know are from augustin's neck of the woods.

Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: augustin717 on July 01, 2012, 12:16:49 AM
Ok, let me engage in a bit of religious profiling  of this "Spiritual Father": former devout Evangelical engaged in "youth ministry" (IIRC what I read on the net) turns into even more devout Antiochian priest, "exuding holiness", "harsh on sin" turns out to be a fraud. Now my guess is that he was of the "culture war" types , probably mandating his flock to vote for the party that upholds "traditional values/morality" is "pro-life", "pro-family" etc. Am I very wrong?
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: OrthoNoob on July 01, 2012, 12:19:50 AM
Well, I would hope any priest would tell his flock not to vote for a party that was anti-life...
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: ialmisry on July 01, 2012, 12:34:39 AM
Ok, let me engage in a bit of religious profiling  of this "Spiritual Father": former devout Evangelical engaged in "youth ministry" (IIRC what I read on the net) turns into even more devout Antiochian priest, "exuding holiness", "harsh on sin" turns out to be a fraud. Now my guess is that he was of the "culture war" types , probably mandating his flock to vote for the party that upholds "traditional values/morality" is "pro-life", "pro-family" etc. Am I very wrong?
No, just very irrelevant. Was there a point?
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: augustin717 on July 01, 2012, 12:36:50 AM
Ok, let me engage in a bit of religious profiling  of this "Spiritual Father": former devout Evangelical engaged in "youth ministry" (IIRC what I read on the net) turns into even more devout Antiochian priest, "exuding holiness", "harsh on sin" turns out to be a fraud. Now my guess is that he was of the "culture war" types , probably mandating his flock to vote for the party that upholds "traditional values/morality" is "pro-life", "pro-family" etc. Am I very wrong?
No, just very irrelevant. Was there a point?
The thief yells "thief" the loudest, usually  ::)
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Michael36 on July 01, 2012, 12:38:23 AM
Ok, let me engage in a bit of religious profiling  of this "Spiritual Father": former devout Evangelical engaged in "youth ministry" (IIRC what I read on the net) turns into even more devout Antiochian priest, "exuding holiness", "harsh on sin" turns out to be a fraud. Now my guess is that he was of the "culture war" types , probably mandating his flock to vote for the party that upholds "traditional values/morality" is "pro-life", "pro-family" etc. Am I very wrong?
No, he was traditional but not a zealot and never forced political beliefs on anyone. Of course he was pro-life, but I don't know what pro-family is supposed to even mean. I said he took sin seriously especially when it caused harm to another person, which is why his hypocrisy is so disturbing, but personal iniquities he was very understanding of.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: ialmisry on July 01, 2012, 12:38:29 AM
Although you may be right that those who have axes to grind might be forced by social convention to show their face in Church more often while in the absence of the expectation of Orthodoxy in "diaspora" they vent their spleens as self proclaimed experts and examples of the old country  instead, and stay away from Church.

Naturally, that disgusting blog "Voices from Russia" made a post about the scandal at the Church. That blog is straight from hell and I don't want to be so much as in the same State as that person when Christ comes again. I could have spit acid at the screen.
I wouldn't put too much stock in a transsexual who rails against "convertsy."

Though I'd be interested in what he has to say about Abp. Joseph.  Doesn't fit his usual shtick.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: ialmisry on July 01, 2012, 12:39:24 AM
Ok, let me engage in a bit of religious profiling  of this "Spiritual Father": former devout Evangelical engaged in "youth ministry" (IIRC what I read on the net) turns into even more devout Antiochian priest, "exuding holiness", "harsh on sin" turns out to be a fraud. Now my guess is that he was of the "culture war" types , probably mandating his flock to vote for the party that upholds "traditional values/morality" is "pro-life", "pro-family" etc. Am I very wrong?
No, just very irrelevant. Was there a point?
The thief yells "thief" the loudest, usually  ::)
I bow to your expertise, but I do recall the communists as a rather loud bunch.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: orthonorm on July 01, 2012, 12:40:37 AM
Ok, let me engage in a bit of religious profiling  of this "Spiritual Father": former devout Evangelical engaged in "youth ministry" (IIRC what I read on the net) turns into even more devout Antiochian priest, "exuding holiness", "harsh on sin" turns out to be a fraud. Now my guess is that he was of the "culture war" types , probably mandating his flock to vote for the party that upholds "traditional values/morality" is "pro-life", "pro-family" etc. Am I very wrong?
No, just very irrelevant. Was there a point?

Seems pretty clear to me. Just like the anti-pornographers who must keep current of all the porn out there and have collections to rival any pervert, but it is just "for research".

I think it falls under the psychologically insight of: Me thinks and all that.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: augustin717 on July 01, 2012, 12:40:53 AM
Ok, let me state clearly: for regular lay people to talk about "Spiritual Father" this, "Spiritual Father" that is just ridiculous and should be met with roaring laughter from the less pious. That's why I said that crooks like this priest operate much better in an environment where the expectations are for them to be  some sort of life-coach/sacramental oprah/guru/starets/elder/geronda/monkabee  and when their p[arishioners see nothin wrong about these things to begin with, whereas in more "nominal" whatever, less fervent communities where priests act like some sort of petty bureaucrat/medicine man it would be harder. In Romania all similar cases I can think of, involved you know, charismatic and traditionalist types.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: ialmisry on July 01, 2012, 12:53:15 AM
Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.
odd, I know plenty of Romanians Orthodox from back home, and none of them have the memories of it that you do.
Those that frequent the same places like you, I suspect are  given to much embellishing, pious fabrications etc. i mean, forgive me but I saw a Romanian  lady there that looked and behaved like a prude nun. No, priests used to be better or worse, but NONE I knew of put on airs of being a "Spiritual Father".
I go to a Romanian parish now, and I agree with Ialmisry, that hasn't been my experience of Romanians. Spiritual Fatherhood is part of the tradition of the Church. It is why we call our Priests "father". If this was not a practice in the old-country, then they were wrong.

I agree completely.  But here's something to consider.  Everything I've read about Romanian Orthodoxy squares up with what you and Isa have said.  But, some of the thing's that Augustin says square's up with what I've heard from other Romanian's (I dated a Romanian for nearly 3.5 years.).  I think there's a break with what should be vs. what sometimes is and I'm keen to blame it on Ceausescu and the Securitate;  basically accommodation to secularism due to a climate of terror.    

Read your post while I was writing this. I too dated a Romanian for some time and have lived amoung them and have contact with them frequently and . . .

Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.
odd, I know plenty of Romanians Orthodox from back home, and none of them have the memories of it that you do.
Those that frequent the same places like you, I suspect are  given to much embellishing, pious fabrications etc. i mean, forgive me but I saw a Romanian  lady there that looked and behaved like a prude nun. No, priests used to be better or worse, but NONE I knew of put on airs of being a "Spiritual Father".
Been to Romania and spoken with many Romanians. And the weight of the evidence falls to augustin. The Romanians I've met not matter how folksy pious whatever they are they are the first to poo poo this spiritual father nonsense as well. I've heard at least a dozen stories of the ueber pious Romanian seeking a "spiritual father" and the unhappy outcome as a cautionary tale.

Could be regional or whatever as most of the Romanians I know are from augustin's neck of the woods.
Not sure about that: all my ex's former friends tried to blame Bucharest on how she was.

Been to Romania, spoken to many Romanians, married a Romanian and imported her parents into my home so heard a lot of Romanians.  I have plenty of my own evidence, and much of it contradicts Augustin (although I admit, I don't know what a "prude nun" from a "non-prude nun" he means, so maybe I'm missing something).  As for this spiritual father thing, I've lived in Egypt, and its there, spent a good amount of time in Palestine, Jordan and Syria, and its there, been to Greece several times, and its there.  Though there are cautionary tales.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: ialmisry on July 01, 2012, 01:12:56 AM
Ok, let me engage in a bit of religious profiling  of this "Spiritual Father": former devout Evangelical engaged in "youth ministry" (IIRC what I read on the net) turns into even more devout Antiochian priest, "exuding holiness", "harsh on sin" turns out to be a fraud. Now my guess is that he was of the "culture war" types , probably mandating his flock to vote for the party that upholds "traditional values/morality" is "pro-life", "pro-family" etc. Am I very wrong?
No, just very irrelevant. Was there a point?

Seems pretty clear to me. Just like the anti-pornographers who must keep current of all the porn out there and have collections to rival any pervert, but it is just "for research".

I think it falls under the psychologically insight of: Me thinks and all that.
Answered here
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,45577.0.html
and all that.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: ialmisry on July 01, 2012, 01:14:56 AM
Ok, let me state clearly: for regular lay people to talk about "Spiritual Father" this, "Spiritual Father" that is just ridiculous and should be met with roaring laughter from the less pious. That's why I said that crooks like this priest operate much better in an environment where the expectations are for them to be  some sort of life-coach/sacramental oprah/guru/starets/elder/geronda/monkabee  and when their p[arishioners see nothin wrong about these things to begin with, whereas in more "nominal" whatever, less fervent communities where priests act like some sort of petty bureaucrat/medicine man it would be harder. In Romania all similar cases I can think of, involved you know, charismatic and traditionalist types.
sort of how Ceaucescu and the apparachniks lived off of those useful idiots believing all that workers' paradise crap.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Michael36 on July 01, 2012, 01:19:15 AM
Ok, let me state clearly: for regular lay people to talk about "Spiritual Father" this, "Spiritual Father" that is just ridiculous and should be met with roaring laughter from the less pious. That's why I said that crooks like this priest operate much better in an environment where the expectations are for them to be  some sort of life-coach/sacramental oprah/guru/starets/elder/geronda/monkabee  and when their p[arishioners see nothin wrong about these things to begin with, whereas in more "nominal" whatever, less fervent communities where priests act like some sort of petty bureaucrat/medicine man it would be harder. In Romania all similar cases I can think of, involved you know, charismatic and traditionalist types.

He did not establish an autocratic aura of a guru/geronda, he was a father and very informal about it. Furthermore he was at the complete disposal of the parish. He worked 24/7 visiting the sick, doing more services than most churches, answering calls, relationship counseling, inquirer classes, taking peoples prayer requests to St. John in San Francisco, it goes on and on. I have no car and he coordinated rides with numerous people to get me to Church and before I left he drove me all the way out to Platina to speak with the monks whose writings brought me into the Church (DTTW) and pay my respects to Blessed Fr. Seraphim Rose. He never molested me, though he made offhand comments that were extremely out of character and crude, that I shrugged off in my naivety as tactless veteran speech. If he had done something I would have reported him immediately likely after punching him in the face.

The problem here is not spiritual fatherhood, which is in the Bible and an intrinsic part of Christianity. The problem is that he betrayed it, and we were all naive. There should be training to make sure these things don't happen, and parents should never assume that it could never happen with their Priest. He even told me that a Priest shouldn't even allow himself to be alone with a woman or child lest people get the wrong idea. I learned a lot from him, because you can still learn a lot from a hypocrite.

In retrospect, I think he worked himself half to death to make up for his sins in some way. No, this doesn't justify anything, that's just my thoughts.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: augustin717 on July 01, 2012, 01:39:06 AM
I don't even know what is meant by "spiritual fatherhood". Back when I used to go to confession I would stay 5 minutes under the priest,s stole mumble some sins there get the absolution and that was it. And so did everybody else I knew. It wouldn't have crossEd my mind to say that I had a "spiritual father". Just a parish priest I occasionally went to for confession
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: William on July 01, 2012, 01:45:02 AM
I don't even know what is meant by "spiritual fatherhood". Back when I used to go to confession I would stay 5 minutes under the priest,s stole mumble some sins there get the absolution and that was it. And so did everybody else I knew. It wouldn't have crossEd my mind to say that I had a "spiritual father". Just a parish priest I occasionally went to for confession

Did he ever give a penance or advice?
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: augustin717 on July 01, 2012, 01:57:49 AM
I don't even know what is meant by "spiritual fatherhood". Back when I used to go to confession I would stay 5 minutes under the priest,s stole mumble some sins there get the absolution and that was it. And so did everybody else I knew. It wouldn't have crossEd my mind to say that I had a "spiritual father". Just a parish priest I occasionally went to for confession

Did he ever give a penance or advice?
Not that I can think of, except for some platitude to try to do better or so.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Maria on July 01, 2012, 02:22:42 AM
Ok, let me state clearly: for regular lay people to talk about "Spiritual Father" this, "Spiritual Father" that is just ridiculous and should be met with roaring laughter from the less pious. That's why I said that crooks like this priest operate much better in an environment where the expectations are for them to be  some sort of life-coach/sacramental oprah/guru/starets/elder/geronda/monkabee  and when their p[arishioners see nothin wrong about these things to begin with, whereas in more "nominal" whatever, less fervent communities where priests act like some sort of petty bureaucrat/medicine man it would be harder. In Romania all similar cases I can think of, involved you know, charismatic and traditionalist types.

He did not establish an autocratic aura of a guru/geronda, he was a father and very informal about it. Furthermore he was at the complete disposal of the parish. He worked 24/7 visiting the sick, doing more services than most churches, answering calls, relationship counseling, inquirer classes, taking peoples prayer requests to St. John in San Francisco, it goes on and on. I have no car and he coordinated rides with numerous people to get me to Church and before I left he drove me all the way out to Platina to speak with the monks whose writings brought me into the Church (DTTW) and pay my respects to Blessed Fr. Seraphim Rose. He never molested me, though he made offhand comments that were extremely out of character and crude, that I shrugged off in my naivety as tactless veteran speech. If he had done something I would have reported him immediately likely after punching him in the face.

The problem here is not spiritual fatherhood, which is in the Bible and an intrinsic part of Christianity. The problem is that he betrayed it, and we were all naive. There should be training to make sure these things don't happen, and parents should never assume that it could never happen with their Priest. He even told me that a Priest shouldn't even allow himself to be alone with a woman or child lest people get the wrong idea. I learned a lot from him, because you can still learn a lot from a hypocrite.

In retrospect, I think he worked himself half to death to make up for his sins in some way. No, this doesn't justify anything, that's just my thoughts.

In general with perverted priests, I wonder if while doing these vile deeds, if they ever own up to their perversion and confess it. Could they have been in deep denial? Had they confessed their perversion, their own spiritual fathers would have asked them to turn themselves into the authorities. Or perhaps not, especially if they had confessed to another pervert priest.

~~

However, use of crude words is alarming and perhaps an indication that this particular priest was not struggling as he should have been. I have rarely met any Orthodox Priest who has used crude language, but when I was a Catholic under Cardinal Mahony of Los Angeles, even though crude language was rather commonplace among the diocesan clergy, it was never heard among the Dominican and Claritian Friars whom I knew.

Lord have mercy.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 01, 2012, 03:05:07 AM
Wish the bishop would have taken him on a boat trip and tied a millstone to his neck and cast him under.
Funny how the most vocal advocates for Christianity and against heresy on this forum are also among the first to make the anti-Christian call for someone's death when he molests little children. ::)
What makes you say it is anti-Christian to call for someone's death when he molests little children?
God desires not the death of sinners but that they should come to repentance.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Severian on July 01, 2012, 03:06:41 AM
Lord have mercy! My condolences to both you and the victims!
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 01, 2012, 03:23:12 AM
I don't even know what is meant by "spiritual fatherhood". Back when I used to go to confession I would stay 5 minutes under the priest,s stole mumble some sins there get the absolution and that was it. And so did everybody else I knew. It wouldn't have crossEd my mind to say that I had a "spiritual father". Just a parish priest I occasionally went to for confession
This is actually much closer to my view of spiritual fatherhood. The Church does have a tradition of submission to a person well advanced in the spiritual life, but this is largely a monastic practice, AFAIK. In our secular Western culture, it's actually quite dangerous to seek this kind of focused spiritual direction outside of whatever limited contact one may have with his parish priest. Very few people are truly qualified to be spiritual fathers in the way I understand spiritual fatherhood to be practiced in some monastic communities. For those who recognize this and the wisdom in not seeking a spiritual father outside his parish, one will often apply the title "spiritual father" to his parish priest and be satisfied.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: ialmisry on July 01, 2012, 08:02:33 AM
Wish the bishop would have taken him on a boat trip and tied a millstone to his neck and cast him under.
Funny how the most vocal advocates for Christianity and against heresy on this forum are also among the first to make the anti-Christian call for someone's death when he molests little children. ::)
What makes you say it is anti-Christian to call for someone's death when he molests little children?
God desires not the death of sinners but that they should come to repentance.
So the Old Testament taught, and yet had the death penalty.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: mountainman on July 01, 2012, 09:41:51 AM
was this priest married?
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 01, 2012, 10:43:14 AM
Wish the bishop would have taken him on a boat trip and tied a millstone to his neck and cast him under.
Funny how the most vocal advocates for Christianity and against heresy on this forum are also among the first to make the anti-Christian call for someone's death when he molests little children. ::)
What makes you say it is anti-Christian to call for someone's death when he molests little children?
God desires not the death of sinners but that they should come to repentance.
So the Old Testament taught,
So the New Testament still teaches.

and yet had the death penalty.
In this thread, however, it's not the death penalty I'm speaking against (even though I do oppose the death penalty); it's the lynch mob mentality demonstrated by such posters as GabrieltheCelt.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 01, 2012, 10:46:05 AM
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy: a life lived in accordance with the Gospel.
...
How do you understand my words, Nicholas? I can't read through an ellipsis.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Zenovia on July 01, 2012, 02:26:13 PM
Dear Mikha'el,

All of us are shocked and depressed.  This was a serious betrayal.

What gives me hope is that we saw the Church act quickly and appropriately: the youth director immediately reported the situation, and the Church stepped up and not only contacted the police but deposed the man without hesitation.  I think you will see healing come quickly because of these steps.  The victims were given priority, and will continue to receive compassion from the Church.

As for the predator, we can only hope that he repents and receives the forgiveness he preached about.  It is tragic that he could not get out of the Church what he gave others, but I think this is less about him and more about the power of God and the truth of the Orthodox Faith.  The faith does not depend on the strength of us weak humans, because the truth is the truth no matter what.

I had a hard time sleeping last night because of this.  I saw this man only a few weeks ago, and it is hard to believe that this is the same person.  He's an Army vet and retired police officer... not categories you connect with such depravity.  Yet, I do not doubt the accusations for an instant, because I know the deacon there and I trust that Archbishop Joseph had the evidence.  His Eminence does not mess around in these situations.  Years ago, he told us in a deanery meeting (after another high-profile case came up in the news) that he would call the police if he suspected any of us were doing anything like this.  I remember it clearly because of how animated he became.  Yesterday, he proved that he was not kidding.

We all would do well to pray for the victims, the people of St. Timothy who have a long road to recovery ahead, and all those adversely affected by this situation.  I think that would include the abuser himself, who is now greatly shamed and humiliated, as this might give him the opportunity to repent now and prepare his conscience before he passes into Eternal Judgment as all of us will.
Thank you Father, I truly am proud to call Archbishop Joseph my hierarch. I just can't fathom how he could live a double life like that. I find myself wondering, does he even believe in God? How could you enter the altar knowing you did that without literal fear and trembling? I only ever felt sincerity from the man, and he took sin very seriously.

 God has preserved me from the worst of this, for some reason, in that I wasn't there to see the Church fall apart (I would trade places with any one of them; they deserve it more) and He has brought me to another beautiful Church with sincere lovers of Christ.

A friend posted something on Facebook that really cut to the heart of this issue and how to move forward:
"Believe to the end, even if all men went astray and you were left the only one faithful; bring your offering even then and praise God in your loneliness"- Fyodor Dostoevsky "The Brothers Karamazov"

The one thing we seem to discard now a days, is that of demonic possession.  In all cases such as this, as well as the murders of innocents, it's the first thing that comes into my mind.   :(
What do you know of child molestation and demon possession, Zenovia?

I would have to look at the priests  eyes to be certain, after all it is a reflection of a person's soul?   :-\
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Zenovia on July 01, 2012, 02:36:01 PM
Dear Mikha'el,

All of us are shocked and depressed.  This was a serious betrayal.

What gives me hope is that we saw the Church act quickly and appropriately: the youth director immediately reported the situation, and the Church stepped up and not only contacted the police but deposed the man without hesitation.  I think you will see healing come quickly because of these steps.  The victims were given priority, and will continue to receive compassion from the Church.

As for the predator, we can only hope that he repents and receives the forgiveness he preached about.  It is tragic that he could not get out of the Church what he gave others, but I think this is less about him and more about the power of God and the truth of the Orthodox Faith.  The faith does not depend on the strength of us weak humans, because the truth is the truth no matter what.

I had a hard time sleeping last night because of this.  I saw this man only a few weeks ago, and it is hard to believe that this is the same person.  He's an Army vet and retired police officer... not categories you connect with such depravity.  Yet, I do not doubt the accusations for an instant, because I know the deacon there and I trust that Archbishop Joseph had the evidence.  His Eminence does not mess around in these situations.  Years ago, he told us in a deanery meeting (after another high-profile case came up in the news) that he would call the police if he suspected any of us were doing anything like this.  I remember it clearly because of how animated he became.  Yesterday, he proved that he was not kidding.

We all would do well to pray for the victims, the people of St. Timothy who have a long road to recovery ahead, and all those adversely affected by this situation.  I think that would include the abuser himself, who is now greatly shamed and humiliated, as this might give him the opportunity to repent now and prepare his conscience before he passes into Eternal Judgment as all of us will.
Thank you Father, I truly am proud to call Archbishop Joseph my hierarch. I just can't fathom how he could live a double life like that. I find myself wondering, does he even believe in God? How could you enter the altar knowing you did that without literal fear and trembling? I only ever felt sincerity from the man, and he took sin very seriously.

 God has preserved me from the worst of this, for some reason, in that I wasn't there to see the Church fall apart (I would trade places with any one of them; they deserve it more) and He has brought me to another beautiful Church with sincere lovers of Christ.

A friend posted something on Facebook that really cut to the heart of this issue and how to move forward:
"Believe to the end, even if all men went astray and you were left the only one faithful; bring your offering even then and praise God in your loneliness"- Fyodor Dostoevsky "The Brothers Karamazov"

The one thing we seem to discard now a days, is that of demonic possession.  In all cases such as this, as well as the murders of innocents, it's the first thing that comes into my mind.   :(
The Devil made me do it: did that work for Eve?

Nah it didn't work for Eve, but possession is different.  One's body is taken over, or rather given over out of weakness, so they are not really in control of their actions.  In cases like that, is the person that commits the crime  more guilty or less guilty in the eyes of God, than a person that commits a crime through their own will?  As for the law, they would be guilty either way.    :(
In the law, they claim insanity, and no, I'm not persuaded by that any more than possession claims, absent damn good evidence.  "Resist the Devil and he will flee" St. James the Brother of God tells us in Scripture.  People are quite capable of quite horrible things without the aid of the Devil.  All those killings, murders, rapes, butchering etc. in Scripture, and Scripture only records the Devil going into someone with Judas.

Wasn't a woman possessed of seven demons in the Bible?  Anyway a person can be exorcized if it is within their will, but is it within their will?  I know in the Netherlands they found that one out of twenty five people hear voices speaking to them.  Would it be so difficult for someone to succomb to those voices if they are weak and want certain benefits or gratifications?  I don't think so.  :o

Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Zenovia on July 01, 2012, 02:54:28 PM
Dear Mikha'el,

All of us are shocked and depressed.  This was a serious betrayal.

What gives me hope is that we saw the Church act quickly and appropriately: the youth director immediately reported the situation, and the Church stepped up and not only contacted the police but deposed the man without hesitation.  I think you will see healing come quickly because of these steps.  The victims were given priority, and will continue to receive compassion from the Church.

As for the predator, we can only hope that he repents and receives the forgiveness he preached about.  It is tragic that he could not get out of the Church what he gave others, but I think this is less about him and more about the power of God and the truth of the Orthodox Faith.  The faith does not depend on the strength of us weak humans, because the truth is the truth no matter what.

I had a hard time sleeping last night because of this.  I saw this man only a few weeks ago, and it is hard to believe that this is the same person.  He's an Army vet and retired police officer... not categories you connect with such depravity.  Yet, I do not doubt the accusations for an instant, because I know the deacon there and I trust that Archbishop Joseph had the evidence.  His Eminence does not mess around in these situations.  Years ago, he told us in a deanery meeting (after another high-profile case came up in the news) that he would call the police if he suspected any of us were doing anything like this.  I remember it clearly because of how animated he became.  Yesterday, he proved that he was not kidding.

We all would do well to pray for the victims, the people of St. Timothy who have a long road to recovery ahead, and all those adversely affected by this situation.  I think that would include the abuser himself, who is now greatly shamed and humiliated, as this might give him the opportunity to repent now and prepare his conscience before he passes into Eternal Judgment as all of us will.
Thank you Father, I truly am proud to call Archbishop Joseph my hierarch. I just can't fathom how he could live a double life like that. I find myself wondering, does he even believe in God? How could you enter the altar knowing you did that without literal fear and trembling? I only ever felt sincerity from the man, and he took sin very seriously.

 God has preserved me from the worst of this, for some reason, in that I wasn't there to see the Church fall apart (I would trade places with any one of them; they deserve it more) and He has brought me to another beautiful Church with sincere lovers of Christ.

A friend posted something on Facebook that really cut to the heart of this issue and how to move forward:
"Believe to the end, even if all men went astray and you were left the only one faithful; bring your offering even then and praise God in your loneliness"- Fyodor Dostoevsky "The Brothers Karamazov"

The one thing we seem to discard now a days, is that of demonic possession.  In all cases such as this, as well as the murders of innocents, it's the first thing that comes into my mind.   :(
The Devil made me do it: did that work for Eve?

Nah it didn't work for Eve, but possession is different.  One's body is taken over, or rather given over out of weakness, so they are not really in control of their actions.  In cases like that, is the person that commits the crime  more guilty or less guilty in the eyes of God, than a person that commits a crime through their own will?  As for the law, they would be guilty either way.    :(
In the law, they claim insanity, and no, I'm not persuaded by that any more than possession claims, absent damn good evidence.  "Resist the Devil and he will flee" St. James the Brother of God tells us in Scripture.  People are quite capable of quite horrible things without the aid of the Devil.  All those killings, murders, rapes, butchering etc. in Scripture, and Scripture only records the Devil going into someone with Judas.

Wasn't a woman possessed of seven demons in the Bible?  Anyway a person can be exorcized if it is within their will, but is it within their will?  I know in the Netherlands they found that one out of twenty five people hear voices speaking to them.  Would it be so difficult for someone to succomb to those voices if they are weak and want certain benefits or gratifications?  I don't think so.  :o



Okay let me explain where I picked up this concept, or rather the understanding I have of demonic possession.  I heard a man tell a story of how a criminal  held a knife to his wife's neck, and when she started to pray he dropped the knife and apologized.  When someone asked as to why he dropped the knife and apologized, the answer was that it wasn't him that was committing the act, but rather the 'entity' that he had subjected himself to.

Look, I think these things should be mentioned more often, especially with all the occult that is now available to young people on the internet.  I know of someone that went looking up 'vampires' on the internet, and it connected her to an occultic  site.  She fell  into a deep depression afterwards and almost ended up killing herself.   These things are not a joke.   >:(



Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Kerdy on July 01, 2012, 03:04:55 PM
Lord have mercy!

I hope no one will use this as a moment to attack the church, rather an opportunity to show and focus on healing and the love within the Church.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 01, 2012, 03:10:57 PM
Wasn't a woman possessed of seven demons in the Bible?  Anyway a person can be exorcized if it is within their will, but is it within their will?  I know in the Netherlands they found that one out of twenty five people hear voices speaking to them.  Would it be so difficult for someone to succomb to those voices if they are weak and want certain benefits or gratifications?  I don't think so.  :o

Hearing voices does not a possessed man make.  Hearing voices is most likely the result of one (or more) of the many psychiatric disorders that can cause auditory hallucinations.  There is no reason to believe, in most cases at the least, that demons are to blame.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 01, 2012, 03:10:57 PM
These things are not a joke.   >:(

Unfortunately, neither are your posts.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Tallitot on July 01, 2012, 03:59:04 PM
Wasn't a woman possessed of seven demons in the Bible?  Anyway a person can be exorcized if it is within their will, but is it within their will?  I know in the Netherlands they found that one out of twenty five people hear voices speaking to them.  Would it be so difficult for someone to succomb to those voices if they are weak and want certain benefits or gratifications?  I don't think so.  :o

Hearing voices does not a possessed man make.  Hearing voices is most likely the result of one (or more) of the many psychiatric disorders that can cause auditory hallucinations.
  There is no reason to believe, in most cases at the least, that demons are to blame.
+1
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Nikolaostheservant on July 01, 2012, 04:18:55 PM
Wasn't a woman possessed of seven demons in the Bible?  Anyway a person can be exorcized if it is within their will, but is it within their will?  I know in the Netherlands they found that one out of twenty five people hear voices speaking to them.  Would it be so difficult for someone to succomb to those voices if they are weak and want certain benefits or gratifications?  I don't think so.  :o

Hearing voices does not a possessed man make.  Hearing voices is most likely the result of one (or more) of the many psychiatric disorders that can cause auditory hallucinations.  There is no reason to believe, in most cases at the least, that demons are to blame.


If i were the devil thats exactly what i would want you to believe!

Look, yes there is mental illness but we are very quick to diagnose it a such when all the possibilities are not exhausted.
And i was the first to do so, and to laugh at the possibility of other forces at work.
NOT anymore--i realise (through personal experience) that evil/darkness is much more involved in the world than we think.
Just take a look around at what is going on in this world...humand beings cannot commit all these acts on there own.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Zenovia on July 01, 2012, 04:22:09 PM
Wasn't a woman possessed of seven demons in the Bible?  Anyway a person can be exorcized if it is within their will, but is it within their will?  I know in the Netherlands they found that one out of twenty five people hear voices speaking to them.  Would it be so difficult for someone to succomb to those voices if they are weak and want certain benefits or gratifications?  I don't think so.  :o

Hearing voices does not a possessed man make.  Hearing voices is most likely the result of one (or more) of the many psychiatric disorders that can cause auditory hallucinations.  There is no reason to believe, in most cases at the least, that demons are to blame.

A man is to blame for the crime he commits, whether he has willingly subjected himself to a demon, or whether he did it through his own will.  It's important though for possession to be recognized and that it does exist, and people, especially Christians, should be warned about the consequences it has to their eternal soul. :)   
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: orthonorm on July 01, 2012, 04:40:21 PM
Wasn't a woman possessed of seven demons in the Bible?  Anyway a person can be exorcized if it is within their will, but is it within their will?  I know in the Netherlands they found that one out of twenty five people hear voices speaking to them.  Would it be so difficult for someone to succomb to those voices if they are weak and want certain benefits or gratifications?  I don't think so.  :o

Hearing voices does not a possessed man make.  Hearing voices is most likely the result of one (or more) of the many psychiatric disorders that can cause auditory hallucinations.  There is no reason to believe, in most cases at the least, that demons are to blame.

Or it could be that crazy demonic discovery of Socrates, the conscience.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 01, 2012, 04:43:57 PM
Wasn't a woman possessed of seven demons in the Bible?  Anyway a person can be exorcized if it is within their will, but is it within their will?  I know in the Netherlands they found that one out of twenty five people hear voices speaking to them.  Would it be so difficult for someone to succomb to those voices if they are weak and want certain benefits or gratifications?  I don't think so.  :o

Hearing voices does not a possessed man make.  Hearing voices is most likely the result of one (or more) of the many psychiatric disorders that can cause auditory hallucinations.  There is no reason to believe, in most cases at the least, that demons are to blame.

A man is to blame for the crime he commits, whether he has willingly subjected himself to a demon, or whether he did it through his own will.  It's important though for possession to be recognized and that it does exist, and people, especially Christians, should be warned about the consequences it has to their eternal soul. :)   

And it is important for you to recognize that mental illness is not possession.  Or when you get the flue do you blame demons?
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Michael36 on July 01, 2012, 04:49:50 PM

Okay let me explain where I picked up this concept, or rather the understanding I have of demonic possession.  I heard a man tell a story of how a criminal  held a knife to his wife's neck, and when she started to pray he dropped the knife and apologized.  When someone asked as to why he dropped the knife and apologized, the answer was that it wasn't him that was committing the act, but rather the 'entity' that he had subjected himself to.

Look, I think these things should be mentioned more often, especially with all the occult that is now available to young people on the internet.  I know of someone that went looking up 'vampires' on the internet, and it connected her to an occultic  site.  She fell  into a deep depression afterwards and almost ended up killing herself.   These things are not a joke.   >:(
I agree with you, demon possession is far more common than people realize. A very close friend of mine before I became Orthodox was possessed. However, when someone is possessed it is usually incredibly obvious. They have this aura about them and I even spoke to the damn thing (I didn't get her help. Forgive me a sinner). There is an immediate, noticeable, and disturbing change when the demon takes full control.

I repeat what I said earlier; this priest was not possessed. You should never just assume that someone is possessed, especially in light of multiple personality disorder, because it can cause even worse psycological harm to the person, or make them feel justified in having an excuse (as people have said, "the devil made me do it"). One shouldn't rationalize away the reality of demons, but at the same time it is essential to be grounded and discerning.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Michael36 on July 01, 2012, 04:58:31 PM
Lord have mercy!

I hope no one will use this as a moment to attack the church, rather an opportunity to show and focus on healing and the love within the Church.
It's all over the Bay news and most of the news stories don't mention that it was the diocese that immediately defrocked him and called the police. Instead you've got scumbag reporters traipsing about the scene filming the Police ransacking the Church looking for evidence, taking out hard drives, etc, and they have this last and very purposeful shot of the Police locking the door with the sign saying "Closed".
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Michael36 on July 01, 2012, 05:05:49 PM


In general with perverted priests, I wonder if while doing these vile deeds, if they ever own up to their perversion and confess it. Could they have been in deep denial? Had they confessed their perversion, their own spiritual fathers would have asked them to turn themselves into the authorities. Or perhaps not, especially if they had confessed to another pervert priest.
I honestly have no idea. I don't know if he justified it to himself, if it drove him insane with guilt, or if he somehow disassociated himself from it. I have been wondering what he did with his Confessor. If he didn't confess, then he was consistently eating and drinking damnation unto himself for nearly twenty years (I can't fathom how he could do that in the Church, and how he could bring himself to serve in the altar without cowering in fear). If he confessed the sin, then either his confessor didn't say anything to the diocese or was covering it up. Either way, if this man confessed the sins he had committed then his confessor should be defrocked immediately. Confessor confidentiality doesn't extend to the abuse of children.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 01, 2012, 05:26:49 PM


In general with perverted priests, I wonder if while doing these vile deeds, if they ever own up to their perversion and confess it. Could they have been in deep denial? Had they confessed their perversion, their own spiritual fathers would have asked them to turn themselves into the authorities. Or perhaps not, especially if they had confessed to another pervert priest.
I honestly have no idea. I don't know if he justified it to himself, if it drove him insane with guilt, or if he somehow disassociated himself from it. I have been wondering what he did with his Confessor. If he didn't confess, then he was consistently eating and drinking damnation unto himself for nearly twenty years (I can't fathom how he could do that in the Church, and how he could bring himself to serve in the altar without cowering in fear). If he confessed the sin, then either his confessor didn't say anything to the diocese or was covering it up. Either way, if this man confessed the sins he had committed then his confessor should be defrocked immediately. Confessor confidentiality doesn't extend to the abuse of children.

That is a highly debatable position.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Shiny on July 01, 2012, 05:28:53 PM
Wasn't a woman possessed of seven demons in the Bible?  Anyway a person can be exorcized if it is within their will, but is it within their will?  I know in the Netherlands they found that one out of twenty five people hear voices speaking to them.  Would it be so difficult for someone to succomb to those voices if they are weak and want certain benefits or gratifications?  I don't think so.  :o

Hearing voices does not a possessed man make.  Hearing voices is most likely the result of one (or more) of the many psychiatric disorders that can cause auditory hallucinations.  There is no reason to believe, in most cases at the least, that demons are to blame.

A man is to blame for the crime he commits, whether he has willingly subjected himself to a demon, or whether he did it through his own will.  It's important though for possession to be recognized and that it does exist, and people, especially Christians, should be warned about the consequences it has to their eternal soul. :)   

And it is important for you to recognize that mental illness is not possession.  Or when you get the flue do you blame demons?
I attribute some of my mental illness to demons actually. Without divulging into my personal life I've encountered one in the form of a reincarnated ex-gf.

Now I'll go back into hiding.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: FatherGiryus on July 01, 2012, 06:02:45 PM
Of the few pedophiles I have encountered, none of them was ever able to own up.  Most are fixated on the notion that what they are doing is 'natural' and this obsession is exceedingly hard to break.  I suspect this was also his case.

As for confession, it rests on the notion of repentence... someone who comes to talk about a sin but refuses to make restitution is not repentance.  If that person is planning to go back out and commit more acts of violence against children, then it isn't confession at all... it is bragging.  I would be on the phone with the Bishop ASAP.




In general with perverted priests, I wonder if while doing these vile deeds, if they ever own up to their perversion and confess it. Could they have been in deep denial? Had they confessed their perversion, their own spiritual fathers would have asked them to turn themselves into the authorities. Or perhaps not, especially if they had confessed to another pervert priest.
I honestly have no idea. I don't know if he justified it to himself, if it drove him insane with guilt, or if he somehow disassociated himself from it. I have been wondering what he did with his Confessor. If he didn't confess, then he was consistently eating and drinking damnation unto himself for nearly twenty years (I can't fathom how he could do that in the Church, and how he could bring himself to serve in the altar without cowering in fear). If he confessed the sin, then either his confessor didn't say anything to the diocese or was covering it up. Either way, if this man confessed the sins he had committed then his confessor should be defrocked immediately. Confessor confidentiality doesn't extend to the abuse of children.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Agabus on July 01, 2012, 07:09:38 PM

As for confession, it rests on the notion of repentence... someone who comes to talk about a sin but refuses to make restitution is not repentance.  If that person is planning to go back out and commit more acts of violence against children, then it isn't confession at all... it is bragging.  I would be on the phone with the Bishop ASAP.



I knew a minister who was pleaded guilty to fifty-something counts of child molestation, but only because if it had gone to trial the death penalty would have been on the table. He had been accused quietly before, but not prosecuted. In the end, he did not apologize, but he did quote scripture at his sentencing.

May God have mercy on all who are involved.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Agabus on July 01, 2012, 07:10:36 PM
double post.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Kerdy on July 01, 2012, 07:16:20 PM
Lord have mercy!

I hope no one will use this as a moment to attack the church, rather an opportunity to show and focus on healing and the love within the Church.
It's all over the Bay news and most of the news stories don't mention that it was the diocese that immediately defrocked him and called the police. Instead you've got scumbag reporters traipsing about the scene filming the Police ransacking the Church looking for evidence, taking out hard drives, etc, and they have this last and very purposeful shot of the Police locking the door with the sign saying "Closed".

I found a news report that did clarify church officials notified law enforcement.  At least one got it right.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Tallitot on July 01, 2012, 08:43:11 PM


In general with perverted priests, I wonder if while doing these vile deeds, if they ever own up to their perversion and confess it. Could they have been in deep denial? Had they confessed their perversion, their own spiritual fathers would have asked them to turn themselves into the authorities. Or perhaps not, especially if they had confessed to another pervert priest.
I honestly have no idea. I don't know if he justified it to himself, if it drove him insane with guilt, or if he somehow disassociated himself from it. I have been wondering what he did with his Confessor. If he didn't confess, then he was consistently eating and drinking damnation unto himself for nearly twenty years (I can't fathom how he could do that in the Church, and how he could bring himself to serve in the altar without cowering in fear). If he confessed the sin, then either his confessor didn't say anything to the diocese or was covering it up. Either way, if this man confessed the sins he had committed then his confessor should be defrocked immediately. Confessor confidentiality doesn't extend to the abuse of children.
IIRC it does. And confidential conversations with clergy are privilaged and not admmisable in court.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: ialmisry on July 01, 2012, 08:53:38 PM


In general with perverted priests, I wonder if while doing these vile deeds, if they ever own up to their perversion and confess it. Could they have been in deep denial? Had they confessed their perversion, their own spiritual fathers would have asked them to turn themselves into the authorities. Or perhaps not, especially if they had confessed to another pervert priest.
I honestly have no idea. I don't know if he justified it to himself, if it drove him insane with guilt, or if he somehow disassociated himself from it. I have been wondering what he did with his Confessor. If he didn't confess, then he was consistently eating and drinking damnation unto himself for nearly twenty years (I can't fathom how he could do that in the Church, and how he could bring himself to serve in the altar without cowering in fear). If he confessed the sin, then either his confessor didn't say anything to the diocese or was covering it up. Either way, if this man confessed the sins he had committed then his confessor should be defrocked immediately. Confessor confidentiality doesn't extend to the abuse of children.
IIRC it does. And confidential conversations with clergy are privilaged and not admmisable in court.
Only, at least in IL, if the clergy privilage them.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Tallitot on July 01, 2012, 09:03:49 PM


In general with perverted priests, I wonder if while doing these vile deeds, if they ever own up to their perversion and confess it. Could they have been in deep denial? Had they confessed their perversion, their own spiritual fathers would have asked them to turn themselves into the authorities. Or perhaps not, especially if they had confessed to another pervert priest.
I honestly have no idea. I don't know if he justified it to himself, if it drove him insane with guilt, or if he somehow disassociated himself from it. I have been wondering what he did with his Confessor. If he didn't confess, then he was consistently eating and drinking damnation unto himself for nearly twenty years (I can't fathom how he could do that in the Church, and how he could bring himself to serve in the altar without cowering in fear). If he confessed the sin, then either his confessor didn't say anything to the diocese or was covering it up. Either way, if this man confessed the sins he had committed then his confessor should be defrocked immediately. Confessor confidentiality doesn't extend to the abuse of children.
IIRC it does. And confidential conversations with clergy are privilaged and not admmisable in court.
Only, at least in IL, if the clergy privilage them.
Right which is why I said "confidential". Sacramental confession would fall in this category. (so are conversations with attorneys, and healthcare providers in the course of thier duties).
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Tallitot on July 01, 2012, 09:09:39 PM
Of the few pedophiles I have encountered, none of them was ever able to own up.  Most are fixated on the notion that what they are doing is 'natural' and this obsession is exceedingly hard to break.  I suspect this was also his case.

As for confession, it rests on the notion of repentence... someone who comes to talk about a sin but refuses to make restitution is not repentance.  If that person is planning to go back out and commit more acts of violence against children, then it isn't confession at all... it is bragging.  I would be on the phone with the Bishop ASAP.

When folks come to you for confession do warn them ahead of time that you reserve the right to divulge what they say if you feel they are not repentant enough? What others confessions do you divulge if you feel it is necesary?
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: ialmisry on July 01, 2012, 09:11:07 PM


In general with perverted priests, I wonder if while doing these vile deeds, if they ever own up to their perversion and confess it. Could they have been in deep denial? Had they confessed their perversion, their own spiritual fathers would have asked them to turn themselves into the authorities. Or perhaps not, especially if they had confessed to another pervert priest.
I honestly have no idea. I don't know if he justified it to himself, if it drove him insane with guilt, or if he somehow disassociated himself from it. I have been wondering what he did with his Confessor. If he didn't confess, then he was consistently eating and drinking damnation unto himself for nearly twenty years (I can't fathom how he could do that in the Church, and how he could bring himself to serve in the altar without cowering in fear). If he confessed the sin, then either his confessor didn't say anything to the diocese or was covering it up. Either way, if this man confessed the sins he had committed then his confessor should be defrocked immediately. Confessor confidentiality doesn't extend to the abuse of children.
IIRC it does. And confidential conversations with clergy are privilaged and not admmisable in court.
Only, at least in IL, if the clergy privilage them.
Right which is why I said "confidential". Sacramental confession would fall in this category. (so are conversations with attorneys, and healthcare providers in the course of thier duties).
The latter two, again at least in IL, can be admitted in certain categories of cases even for privileged conversations.  Only the clergy one seems to be unopenable by law, unless the religious authorities say so.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: ialmisry on July 01, 2012, 09:12:35 PM
Of the few pedophiles I have encountered, none of them was ever able to own up.  Most are fixated on the notion that what they are doing is 'natural' and this obsession is exceedingly hard to break.  I suspect this was also his case.

As for confession, it rests on the notion of repentence... someone who comes to talk about a sin but refuses to make restitution is not repentance.  If that person is planning to go back out and commit more acts of violence against children, then it isn't confession at all... it is bragging.  I would be on the phone with the Bishop ASAP.

When folks come to you for confession do warn them ahead of time that you reserve the right to divulge what they say if you feel they are not repentant enough? What others confessions do you divulge if you feel it is necesary?
Isn't a question of "repentant enough." It is a question of not being repentant at all.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: FatherGiryus on July 01, 2012, 09:12:52 PM
That varies from state to state.

And confidential conversations with clergy are privilaged and not admmisable in court.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: FatherGiryus on July 01, 2012, 09:17:20 PM
Yup.
Of the few pedophiles I have encountered, none of them was ever able to own up.  Most are fixated on the notion that what they are doing is 'natural' and this obsession is exceedingly hard to break.  I suspect this was also his case.

As for confession, it rests on the notion of repentence... someone who comes to talk about a sin but refuses to make restitution is not repentance.  If that person is planning to go back out and commit more acts of violence against children, then it isn't confession at all... it is bragging.  I would be on the phone with the Bishop ASAP.

When folks come to you for confession do warn them ahead of time that you reserve the right to divulge what they say if you feel they are not repentant enough? What others confessions do you divulge if you feel it is necesary?
Isn't a question of "repentant enough." It is a question of not being repentant at all.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Tallitot on July 01, 2012, 09:19:15 PM
Of the few pedophiles I have encountered, none of them was ever able to own up.  Most are fixated on the notion that what they are doing is 'natural' and this obsession is exceedingly hard to break.  I suspect this was also his case.

As for confession, it rests on the notion of repentence... someone who comes to talk about a sin but refuses to make restitution is not repentance.  If that person is planning to go back out and commit more acts of violence against children, then it isn't confession at all... it is bragging.  I would be on the phone with the Bishop ASAP.

When folks come to you for confession do warn them ahead of time that you reserve the right to divulge what they say if you feel they are not repentant enough? What others confessions do you divulge if you feel it is necesary?
Isn't a question of "repentant enough." It is a question of not being repentant at all.
thanks, but the question was directed to FatherGiryus. Perhaps you could let him answer for himself?
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Tallitot on July 01, 2012, 09:22:25 PM
That varies from state to state.[/font][/size]

And confidential conversations with clergy are privilaged and not admmisable in court.
So priests don't refuse to divulge statements made in confession in court?
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Asteriktos on July 01, 2012, 09:25:50 PM
Fwiw some of the posts in this thread (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12542.0.html) might be relevant here...
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: FatherGiryus on July 01, 2012, 09:50:31 PM
You said, "And confidential conversations with clergy are privilaged and not admmisable in court."

I said, basically, that this is not entirely true, and that different states have different standards.

Whether an Orthodox priest would testify is a complicated process, weighing a number of factors, including whether the statements to be testified to can actually be considered confession or not.

The ultimate measure would be the salvation of all those involved.  If I believed that a child would continue to be raped if I did not report what I heard in a 'confession' (meaning that the person speaking to me was unwilling to turn himself in so that he would stop), then I would say that this priest would be willing even to sacrifice my ministry if it meant stopping such a horrible evil and be deposed for it.  However, that being said, I can't think of an Orthodox bishop who would depose a priest for trying to prevent such savagery.

I do not believe in self-preservation at the expense of others.  Sometimes it is better to jump on the grenade to save others than it is to live a long life knowing that you could have saved someone else and didn't.  Whether the grenade goes off is another matter entirely.


That varies from state to state.[/font][/size]

And confidential conversations with clergy are privilaged and not admmisable in court.
So priests don't refuse to divulge statements made in confession in court?
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: ialmisry on July 01, 2012, 09:52:30 PM
Of the few pedophiles I have encountered, none of them was ever able to own up.  Most are fixated on the notion that what they are doing is 'natural' and this obsession is exceedingly hard to break.  I suspect this was also his case.

As for confession, it rests on the notion of repentence... someone who comes to talk about a sin but refuses to make restitution is not repentance.  If that person is planning to go back out and commit more acts of violence against children, then it isn't confession at all... it is bragging.  I would be on the phone with the Bishop ASAP.

When folks come to you for confession do warn them ahead of time that you reserve the right to divulge what they say if you feel they are not repentant enough? What others confessions do you divulge if you feel it is necesary?
Isn't a question of "repentant enough." It is a question of not being repentant at all.
thanks, but the question was directed to FatherGiryus. Perhaps you could let him answer for himself?
He did.
Yup.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Tallitot on July 01, 2012, 10:00:29 PM
You said, "And confidential conversations with clergy are privilaged and not admmisable in court."

I said, basically, that this is not entirely true, and that different states have different standards.

Whether an Orthodox priest would testify is a complicated process, weighing a number of factors, including whether the statements to be testified to can actually be considered confession or not.

The ultimate measure would be the salvation of all those involved.  If I believed that a child would continue to be raped if I did not report what I heard in a 'confession' (meaning that the person speaking to me was unwilling to turn himself in so that he would stop), then I would say that this priest would be willing even to sacrifice my ministry if it meant stopping such a horrible evil and be deposed for it.  However, that being said, I can't think of an Orthodox bishop who would depose a priest for trying to prevent such savagery.

I do not believe in self-preservation at the expense of others.  Sometimes it is better to jump on the grenade to save others than it is to live a long life knowing that you could have saved someone else and didn't.  Whether the grenade goes off is another matter entirely.


That varies from state to state.[/font][/size]

And confidential conversations with clergy are privilaged and not admmisable in court.
So priests don't refuse to divulge statements made in confession in court?
Nice self serving statement, but you didn't answer my question- do you notify people in advance that you will divulge the contents of thier confession if you feel it necessary? Or if you feel they are not repentant?
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 01, 2012, 10:08:31 PM
Of the few pedophiles I have encountered, none of them was ever able to own up.  Most are fixated on the notion that what they are doing is 'natural' and this obsession is exceedingly hard to break.  I suspect this was also his case.

As for confession, it rests on the notion of repentence... someone who comes to talk about a sin but refuses to make restitution is not repentance.  If that person is planning to go back out and commit more acts of violence against children, then it isn't confession at all... it is bragging.  I would be on the phone with the Bishop ASAP.

When folks come to you for confession do warn them ahead of time that you reserve the right to divulge what they say if you feel they are not repentant enough? What others confessions do you divulge if you feel it is necesary?

Not to speak for Father Giryus, but the priest is not under any obligation to absolve, and can place a condition that the person confessing turn himself in.

And notice he is calling the bishop, not the police. He has to call the bishop. The priest is not autonomous, and in such difficult cases, the bishop must know what's going on. Names would not have to be given.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: FatherGiryus on July 01, 2012, 10:24:17 PM
Why are you insulting me?   ???
Nice self serving statement,
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Tallitot on July 01, 2012, 10:30:11 PM
Why are you insulting me?   ???
Nice self serving statement,
I didn't try or itend to insult you, FatherGiryus.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 01, 2012, 11:17:04 PM
Dear Mikha'el,

All of us are shocked and depressed.  This was a serious betrayal.

What gives me hope is that we saw the Church act quickly and appropriately: the youth director immediately reported the situation, and the Church stepped up and not only contacted the police but deposed the man without hesitation.  I think you will see healing come quickly because of these steps.  The victims were given priority, and will continue to receive compassion from the Church.

As for the predator, we can only hope that he repents and receives the forgiveness he preached about.  It is tragic that he could not get out of the Church what he gave others, but I think this is less about him and more about the power of God and the truth of the Orthodox Faith.  The faith does not depend on the strength of us weak humans, because the truth is the truth no matter what.

I had a hard time sleeping last night because of this.  I saw this man only a few weeks ago, and it is hard to believe that this is the same person.  He's an Army vet and retired police officer... not categories you connect with such depravity.  Yet, I do not doubt the accusations for an instant, because I know the deacon there and I trust that Archbishop Joseph had the evidence.  His Eminence does not mess around in these situations.  Years ago, he told us in a deanery meeting (after another high-profile case came up in the news) that he would call the police if he suspected any of us were doing anything like this.  I remember it clearly because of how animated he became.  Yesterday, he proved that he was not kidding.

We all would do well to pray for the victims, the people of St. Timothy who have a long road to recovery ahead, and all those adversely affected by this situation.  I think that would include the abuser himself, who is now greatly shamed and humiliated, as this might give him the opportunity to repent now and prepare his conscience before he passes into Eternal Judgment as all of us will.
Thank you Father, I truly am proud to call Archbishop Joseph my hierarch. I just can't fathom how he could live a double life like that. I find myself wondering, does he even believe in God? How could you enter the altar knowing you did that without literal fear and trembling? I only ever felt sincerity from the man, and he took sin very seriously.

 God has preserved me from the worst of this, for some reason, in that I wasn't there to see the Church fall apart (I would trade places with any one of them; they deserve it more) and He has brought me to another beautiful Church with sincere lovers of Christ.

A friend posted something on Facebook that really cut to the heart of this issue and how to move forward:
"Believe to the end, even if all men went astray and you were left the only one faithful; bring your offering even then and praise God in your loneliness"- Fyodor Dostoevsky "The Brothers Karamazov"

The one thing we seem to discard now a days, is that of demonic possession.  In all cases such as this, as well as the murders of innocents, it's the first thing that comes into my mind.   :(
What do you know of child molestation and demon possession, Zenovia?

I would have to look at the priests  eyes to be certain, after all it is a reflection of a person's soul?   :-\
How does that answer my question? You're still asserting that you have the ability to discern if someone's possessed, but you don't give us any details on what specific traits you're looking to see and/or what [first-hand] experiences you've had with the possessed that qualify you to speak as an authority on this matter.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 01, 2012, 11:20:49 PM


In general with perverted priests, I wonder if while doing these vile deeds, if they ever own up to their perversion and confess it. Could they have been in deep denial? Had they confessed their perversion, their own spiritual fathers would have asked them to turn themselves into the authorities. Or perhaps not, especially if they had confessed to another pervert priest.
I honestly have no idea. I don't know if he justified it to himself, if it drove him insane with guilt, or if he somehow disassociated himself from it. I have been wondering what he did with his Confessor. If he didn't confess, then he was consistently eating and drinking damnation unto himself for nearly twenty years (I can't fathom how he could do that in the Church, and how he could bring himself to serve in the altar without cowering in fear). If he confessed the sin, then either his confessor didn't say anything to the diocese or was covering it up. Either way, if this man confessed the sins he had committed then his confessor should be defrocked immediately. Confessor confidentiality doesn't extend to the abuse of children.
Actually, yes it does. If you want, I can redirect you to the many threads where our immediately past admin, Fr. Chris, has stated very clearly that UNDER ABSOLUTELY NO CIRCUMSTANCES is a priest to EVER reveal to others what is revealed to him in confession and that the penalty for violating this rule is defrocking.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 01, 2012, 11:29:42 PM
Why are you insulting me?   ???
Nice self serving statement,
FatherGiryus, with all due respect, that's not an insult.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: FatherGiryus on July 01, 2012, 11:33:09 PM
Please explain to me how 'self-serving' is not a pejorative.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/self-serving (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/self-serving)


Why are you insulting me?   ???
Nice self serving statement,
FatherGiryus, with all due respect, that's not an insult.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 01, 2012, 11:37:02 PM
The adjective "self-serving" was used to describe what you said, not you personally.

Please explain to me how 'self-serving' is not a pejorative.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/self-serving (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/self-serving)


Why are you insulting me?   ???
Nice self serving statement,
FatherGiryus, with all due respect, that's not an insult.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 01, 2012, 11:39:08 PM
Of the few pedophiles I have encountered, none of them was ever able to own up.  Most are fixated on the notion that what they are doing is 'natural' and this obsession is exceedingly hard to break.  I suspect this was also his case.

As for confession, it rests on the notion of repentence... someone who comes to talk about a sin but refuses to make restitution is not repentance.  If that person is planning to go back out and commit more acts of violence against children, then it isn't confession at all... it is bragging.  I would be on the phone with the Bishop ASAP.




In general with perverted priests, I wonder if while doing these vile deeds, if they ever own up to their perversion and confess it. Could they have been in deep denial? Had they confessed their perversion, their own spiritual fathers would have asked them to turn themselves into the authorities. Or perhaps not, especially if they had confessed to another pervert priest.
I honestly have no idea. I don't know if he justified it to himself, if it drove him insane with guilt, or if he somehow disassociated himself from it. I have been wondering what he did with his Confessor. If he didn't confess, then he was consistently eating and drinking damnation unto himself for nearly twenty years (I can't fathom how he could do that in the Church, and how he could bring himself to serve in the altar without cowering in fear). If he confessed the sin, then either his confessor didn't say anything to the diocese or was covering it up. Either way, if this man confessed the sins he had committed then his confessor should be defrocked immediately. Confessor confidentiality doesn't extend to the abuse of children.

Just a quick note.  I believe I read his victims were about 13, which means it wasn't pedophilia, but rather hebephilia.  I only bring this up because there is currently a serious debate concerning the possible elimination of pedophilia in the DSM-5, and replacing it with pedohebophilic disorder, something that it seems a very significant number (including many prominent) psychiatrists oppose.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 01, 2012, 11:39:08 PM
Lord have mercy!

I hope no one will use this as a moment to attack the church, rather an opportunity to show and focus on healing and the love within the Church.
It's all over the Bay news and most of the news stories don't mention that it was the diocese that immediately defrocked him and called the police. Instead you've got scumbag reporters traipsing about the scene filming the Police ransacking the Church looking for evidence, taking out hard drives, etc, and they have this last and very purposeful shot of the Police locking the door with the sign saying "Closed".

I found a news report that did clarify church officials notified law enforcement.  At least one got it right.

Yeah, the first hit on Google, when I searched yesterday, was an article saying that the Church had contacted police.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 01, 2012, 11:39:08 PM
Of the few pedophiles I have encountered, none of them was ever able to own up.  Most are fixated on the notion that what they are doing is 'natural' and this obsession is exceedingly hard to break.  I suspect this was also his case.

As for confession, it rests on the notion of repentence... someone who comes to talk about a sin but refuses to make restitution is not repentance.  If that person is planning to go back out and commit more acts of violence against children, then it isn't confession at all... it is bragging.  I would be on the phone with the Bishop ASAP.

When folks come to you for confession do warn them ahead of time that you reserve the right to divulge what they say if you feel they are not repentant enough? What others confessions do you divulge if you feel it is necesary?

Father, I also have a question.  How would you know that they were planning to commit more acts of violence, as opposed to merely likely to?  Or does it matter to you, that is, if they were merely likely to commit more acts - in your opinion - would you break the seal of confession and inform the bishop?  If so, then how big of a sin does it have to be for you to feel it's ok to violate the seal of confession?
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 01, 2012, 11:39:08 PM
Yup.
Of the few pedophiles I have encountered, none of them was ever able to own up.  Most are fixated on the notion that what they are doing is 'natural' and this obsession is exceedingly hard to break.  I suspect this was also his case.

As for confession, it rests on the notion of repentence... someone who comes to talk about a sin but refuses to make restitution is not repentance.  If that person is planning to go back out and commit more acts of violence against children, then it isn't confession at all... it is bragging.  I would be on the phone with the Bishop ASAP.

When folks come to you for confession do warn them ahead of time that you reserve the right to divulge what they say if you feel they are not repentant enough? What others confessions do you divulge if you feel it is necesary?
Isn't a question of "repentant enough." It is a question of not being repentant at all.

But how do you discern who is really repentant?
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 01, 2012, 11:39:08 PM
That varies from state to state.[/font][/size]

And confidential conversations with clergy are privilaged and not admmisable in court.
So priests don't refuse to divulge statements made in confession in court?

Professor Dr. Panteleimor Rodopoulos, Metropolitan of Tyroloe and Serention, an eminent canonist, on page 175 of the English edition of An Overview of Orthodox Canon Law, lists "Infringement of the secrecy of confession" as one of the "Misdemeanors by the clergy," which would suggest that if they don't refuse to, that they are in violation of canon law.  Metropolitan Emmanuel of Kos, in the Exomologeteke, a manual for confessors, says that the secrecy of confession is a principle for which there is no exception.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: witega on July 02, 2012, 12:14:45 AM
Metropolitan Emmanuel of Kos, in the Exomologeteke, a manual for confessors, says that the secrecy of confession is a principle for which there is no exception.

It's Orthodoxy. There's always an exception.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Tallitot on July 02, 2012, 12:15:46 AM
this is getting way off topic.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: FatherGiryus on July 02, 2012, 12:31:06 AM
First, I was speaking hypothetically.  I have never been put in such a situation.

Second, I think we have all seen where 'absolute' canonical norms have been 'broken' by our hierarchs at their discretion.  The interpretation and implementation of the canons is left to the bishops.  What a scholar says and what a bishops does often is two entirely different things.

Third, as to 'how would you know' is rather obvious... someone who comes and says that he will.  As I have said elsewhere in this thread, a true pedophile will likely not confess his activity as a sin.  If facts were uncovered about pedophilia, it would likely not be repented of and certainly not constitute confession.  As someone else pointed out, absolution can be withheld to those who do not repent.

Fourth, I am not aware that the canons cover all pastoral communication as secret.  Some clearly are, but others are not otherwise we would have an absolute injunction, which would make things like spiritual courts virtually impossible to conduct.

Fifth, my calling the bishop does not necessarily entail revealing an identity.  I can ask for help with a situation without naming names.  If I had to put myself in a situation where I would be risking my ministry, I would certainly want to talk to the bishop first.

Sixth, were I to take such a step, I would have to be willing to face the consequences of being put out of the priesthood.  That was the point of my earlier post which was labelled 'self-serving'.  Yet, I think that priests ought to consider their actions in terms of such eventualities.  So, I would have to use this rubric: is breaking the seal worth losing the priesthood?  

Seventh, I do not think that the privacy of confession was intended by the Church to allow murderers and rapists to clean their consciences in order to go back out and commit more crimes.  Anyone who would like to take issue with that is more than welcome to.   ;)

Eighth, if your child was being molested, and you found out the molester was going to confession and confessing it to the priest, what would you want the priest to do?  


Of the few pedophiles I have encountered, none of them was ever able to own up.  Most are fixated on the notion that what they are doing is 'natural' and this obsession is exceedingly hard to break.  I suspect this was also his case.

As for confession, it rests on the notion of repentence... someone who comes to talk about a sin but refuses to make restitution is not repentance.  If that person is planning to go back out and commit more acts of violence against children, then it isn't confession at all... it is bragging.  I would be on the phone with the Bishop ASAP.

When folks come to you for confession do warn them ahead of time that you reserve the right to divulge what they say if you feel they are not repentant enough? What others confessions do you divulge if you feel it is necesary?

Father, I also have a question.  How would you know that they were planning to commit more acts of violence, as opposed to merely likely to?  Or does it matter to you, that is, if they were merely likely to commit more acts - in your opinion - would you break the seal of confession and inform the bishop?  If so, then how big of a sin does it have to be for you to feel it's ok to violate the seal of confession?
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Maximum Bob on July 02, 2012, 01:16:21 AM
FWIW, I do believe that our priest brought up in inquirers class that idea that confession was not guaranteed to be 100% confidential and some situations, similar to the one at hand that would result in something not being confidential.

Second, I can say as someone in the helping professions that the laws of our state spell out that some things are not able to be kept confidential and that some people are mandated reporters. (Don't remember if priests are on that list or not.) We notify clients of this up front and have policies in place spelling out how to proceed, and still having been in the situation of actually making a report on a few occasions, I can tell you its not easy, fun or casual. Sometimes, however, it has to be done for the protection of others.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 02, 2012, 01:17:10 AM
I think Fr. Chris answers a lot of your questions in this thread: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12542.0.html (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12542.0.html)

First, I was speaking hypothetically.  I have never been put in such a situation.

Second, I think we have all seen where 'absolute' canonical norms have been 'broken' by our hierarchs at their discretion.  The interpretation and implementation of the canons is left to the bishops.  What a scholar says and what a bishops does often is two entirely different things.

Third, as to 'how would you know' is rather obvious... someone who comes and says that he will.  As I have said elsewhere in this thread, a true pedophile will likely not confess his activity as a sin.  If facts were uncovered about pedophilia, it would likely not be repented of and certainly not constitute confession.  As someone else pointed out, absolution can be withheld to those who do not repent.

Fourth, I am not aware that the canons cover all pastoral communication as secret.  Some clearly are, but others are not otherwise we would have an absolute injunction, which would make things like spiritual courts virtually impossible to conduct.

Fifth, my calling the bishop does not necessarily entail revealing an identity.  I can ask for help with a situation without naming names.  If I had to put myself in a situation where I would be risking my ministry, I would certainly want to talk to the bishop first.

Sixth, were I to take such a step, I would have to be willing to face the consequences of being put out of the priesthood.  That was the point of my earlier post which was labelled 'self-serving'.  Yet, I think that priests ought to consider their actions in terms of such eventualities.  So, I would have to use this rubric: is breaking the seal worth losing the priesthood?  

Seventh, I do not think that the privacy of confession was intended by the Church to allow murderers and rapists to clean their consciences in order to go back out and commit more crimes.  Anyone who would like to take issue with that is more than welcome to.   ;)

Eighth, if your child was being molested, and you found out the molester was going to confession and confessing it to the priest, what would you want the priest to do?  


Of the few pedophiles I have encountered, none of them was ever able to own up.  Most are fixated on the notion that what they are doing is 'natural' and this obsession is exceedingly hard to break.  I suspect this was also his case.

As for confession, it rests on the notion of repentence... someone who comes to talk about a sin but refuses to make restitution is not repentance.  If that person is planning to go back out and commit more acts of violence against children, then it isn't confession at all... it is bragging.  I would be on the phone with the Bishop ASAP.

When folks come to you for confession do warn them ahead of time that you reserve the right to divulge what they say if you feel they are not repentant enough? What others confessions do you divulge if you feel it is necesary?

Father, I also have a question.  How would you know that they were planning to commit more acts of violence, as opposed to merely likely to?  Or does it matter to you, that is, if they were merely likely to commit more acts - in your opinion - would you break the seal of confession and inform the bishop?  If so, then how big of a sin does it have to be for you to feel it's ok to violate the seal of confession?
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Michael36 on July 02, 2012, 03:45:17 AM


In general with perverted priests, I wonder if while doing these vile deeds, if they ever own up to their perversion and confess it. Could they have been in deep denial? Had they confessed their perversion, their own spiritual fathers would have asked them to turn themselves into the authorities. Or perhaps not, especially if they had confessed to another pervert priest.
I honestly have no idea. I don't know if he justified it to himself, if it drove him insane with guilt, or if he somehow disassociated himself from it. I have been wondering what he did with his Confessor. If he didn't confess, then he was consistently eating and drinking damnation unto himself for nearly twenty years (I can't fathom how he could do that in the Church, and how he could bring himself to serve in the altar without cowering in fear). If he confessed the sin, then either his confessor didn't say anything to the diocese or was covering it up. Either way, if this man confessed the sins he had committed then his confessor should be defrocked immediately. Confessor confidentiality doesn't extend to the abuse of children.
Actually, yes it does. If you want, I can redirect you to the many threads where our immediately past admin, Fr. Chris, has stated very clearly that UNDER ABSOLUTELY NO CIRCUMSTANCES is a priest to EVER reveal to others what is revealed to him in confession and that the penalty for violating this rule is defrocking.
The penance according to St. Basil for a Priest or Monk who seduces children is for them to be publically defrocked, spit on by the laity, bound in chains for months, submitted to manual labor for years under the auspices of a spiritual father, to be always accompanied by a brother anywhere he goes, and to never be allowed around children again. What about this is confidential?
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: LBK on July 02, 2012, 04:08:18 AM
Quote
The penance according to St. Basil for a Priest or Monk who seduces children is for them to be publically defrocked, spit on by the laity, bound in chains for months, submitted to manual labor for years under the auspices of a spiritual father, to be always accompanied by a brother anywhere he goes, and to never be allowed around children again.

I'd like to think that this is one directive that could never be subject to economia.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Cavaradossi on July 02, 2012, 04:32:41 AM
The adjective "self-serving" was used to describe what you said, not you personally.

Please explain to me how 'self-serving' is not a pejorative.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/self-serving (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/self-serving)


Why are you insulting me?   ???
Nice self serving statement,
FatherGiryus, with all due respect, that's not an insult.

What a laughable, pedantic, and asinine distinction. But hey, if it means that making scathing remarks like this acceptable behavior, then I suppose I could be supportive of such pedantry.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Cavaradossi on July 02, 2012, 04:34:44 AM
Quote
The penance according to St. Basil for a Priest or Monk who seduces children is for them to be publically defrocked, spit on by the laity, bound in chains for months, submitted to manual labor for years under the auspices of a spiritual father, to be always accompanied by a brother anywhere he goes, and to never be allowed around children again.

I'd like to think that this is one directive that could never be subject to economia.

Perhaps that should just be what happens to child molesters in general.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 02, 2012, 06:25:14 AM
Metropolitan Emmanuel of Kos, in the Exomologeteke, a manual for confessors, says that the secrecy of confession is a principle for which there is no exception.

It's Orthodoxy. There's always an exception.

If there is always an exception, then there must be an exception to that.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 02, 2012, 06:25:14 AM
First, I was speaking hypothetically.  I have never been put in such a situation.

Second, I think we have all seen where 'absolute' canonical norms have been 'broken' by our hierarchs at their discretion.  The interpretation and implementation of the canons is left to the bishops.  What a scholar says and what a bishops does often is two entirely different things.

Third, as to 'how would you know' is rather obvious... someone who comes and says that he will.  As I have said elsewhere in this thread, a true pedophile will likely not confess his activity as a sin.  If facts were uncovered about pedophilia, it would likely not be repented of and certainly not constitute confession.  As someone else pointed out, absolution can be withheld to those who do not repent.

Fourth, I am not aware that the canons cover all pastoral communication as secret.  Some clearly are, but others are not otherwise we would have an absolute injunction, which would make things like spiritual courts virtually impossible to conduct.

Fifth, my calling the bishop does not necessarily entail revealing an identity.  I can ask for help with a situation without naming names.  If I had to put myself in a situation where I would be risking my ministry, I would certainly want to talk to the bishop first.

Sixth, were I to take such a step, I would have to be willing to face the consequences of being put out of the priesthood.  That was the point of my earlier post which was labelled 'self-serving'.  Yet, I think that priests ought to consider their actions in terms of such eventualities.  So, I would have to use this rubric: is breaking the seal worth losing the priesthood?  

Seventh, I do not think that the privacy of confession was intended by the Church to allow murderers and rapists to clean their consciences in order to go back out and commit more crimes.  Anyone who would like to take issue with that is more than welcome to.   ;)

Eighth, if your child was being molested, and you found out the molester was going to confession and confessing it to the priest, what would you want the priest to do?  


Of the few pedophiles I have encountered, none of them was ever able to own up.  Most are fixated on the notion that what they are doing is 'natural' and this obsession is exceedingly hard to break.  I suspect this was also his case.

As for confession, it rests on the notion of repentence... someone who comes to talk about a sin but refuses to make restitution is not repentance.  If that person is planning to go back out and commit more acts of violence against children, then it isn't confession at all... it is bragging.  I would be on the phone with the Bishop ASAP.

When folks come to you for confession do warn them ahead of time that you reserve the right to divulge what they say if you feel they are not repentant enough? What others confessions do you divulge if you feel it is necesary?

Father, I also have a question.  How would you know that they were planning to commit more acts of violence, as opposed to merely likely to?  Or does it matter to you, that is, if they were merely likely to commit more acts - in your opinion - would you break the seal of confession and inform the bishop?  If so, then how big of a sin does it have to be for you to feel it's ok to violate the seal of confession?

On your third point, I just want to reiterate that the priest in question is not actually a pedophile.  He is a hebophile. 
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: ialmisry on July 02, 2012, 08:02:28 AM
One might remember that private confession was instituted by the Church to replace open confession in the midst of the Congregation.  The Church has the power to bring that back (though, given the reasons for the change, I don't she will ever change it back).  As such, privacy is not an absolute right, and the clergy are not without discretion.
First, I was speaking hypothetically.  I have never been put in such a situation.

Second, I think we have all seen where 'absolute' canonical norms have been 'broken' by our hierarchs at their discretion.  The interpretation and implementation of the canons is left to the bishops.  What a scholar says and what a bishops does often is two entirely different things.

Third, as to 'how would you know' is rather obvious... someone who comes and says that he will.  As I have said elsewhere in this thread, a true pedophile will likely not confess his activity as a sin.  If facts were uncovered about pedophilia, it would likely not be repented of and certainly not constitute confession.  As someone else pointed out, absolution can be withheld to those who do not repent.

Fourth, I am not aware that the canons cover all pastoral communication as secret.  Some clearly are, but others are not otherwise we would have an absolute injunction, which would make things like spiritual courts virtually impossible to conduct.

Fifth, my calling the bishop does not necessarily entail revealing an identity.  I can ask for help with a situation without naming names.  If I had to put myself in a situation where I would be risking my ministry, I would certainly want to talk to the bishop first.

Sixth, were I to take such a step, I would have to be willing to face the consequences of being put out of the priesthood.  That was the point of my earlier post which was labelled 'self-serving'.  Yet, I think that priests ought to consider their actions in terms of such eventualities.  So, I would have to use this rubric: is breaking the seal worth losing the priesthood?  

Seventh, I do not think that the privacy of confession was intended by the Church to allow murderers and rapists to clean their consciences in order to go back out and commit more crimes.  Anyone who would like to take issue with that is more than welcome to.   ;)

Eighth, if your child was being molested, and you found out the molester was going to confession and confessing it to the priest, what would you want the priest to do?  


Of the few pedophiles I have encountered, none of them was ever able to own up.  Most are fixated on the notion that what they are doing is 'natural' and this obsession is exceedingly hard to break.  I suspect this was also his case.

As for confession, it rests on the notion of repentence... someone who comes to talk about a sin but refuses to make restitution is not repentance.  If that person is planning to go back out and commit more acts of violence against children, then it isn't confession at all... it is bragging.  I would be on the phone with the Bishop ASAP.

When folks come to you for confession do warn them ahead of time that you reserve the right to divulge what they say if you feel they are not repentant enough? What others confessions do you divulge if you feel it is necesary?

Father, I also have a question.  How would you know that they were planning to commit more acts of violence, as opposed to merely likely to?  Or does it matter to you, that is, if they were merely likely to commit more acts - in your opinion - would you break the seal of confession and inform the bishop?  If so, then how big of a sin does it have to be for you to feel it's ok to violate the seal of confession?
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 02, 2012, 08:46:41 AM


In general with perverted priests, I wonder if while doing these vile deeds, if they ever own up to their perversion and confess it. Could they have been in deep denial? Had they confessed their perversion, their own spiritual fathers would have asked them to turn themselves into the authorities. Or perhaps not, especially if they had confessed to another pervert priest.
I honestly have no idea. I don't know if he justified it to himself, if it drove him insane with guilt, or if he somehow disassociated himself from it. I have been wondering what he did with his Confessor. If he didn't confess, then he was consistently eating and drinking damnation unto himself for nearly twenty years (I can't fathom how he could do that in the Church, and how he could bring himself to serve in the altar without cowering in fear). If he confessed the sin, then either his confessor didn't say anything to the diocese or was covering it up. Either way, if this man confessed the sins he had committed then his confessor should be defrocked immediately. Confessor confidentiality doesn't extend to the abuse of children.
Actually, yes it does. If you want, I can redirect you to the many threads where our immediately past admin, Fr. Chris, has stated very clearly that UNDER ABSOLUTELY NO CIRCUMSTANCES is a priest to EVER reveal to others what is revealed to him in confession and that the penalty for violating this rule is defrocking.
The penance according to St. Basil for a Priest or Monk who seduces children is for them to be publically defrocked, spit on by the laity, bound in chains for months, submitted to manual labor for years under the auspices of a spiritual father, to be always accompanied by a brother anywhere he goes, and to never be allowed around children again. What about this is confidential?
The penance nowadays, at least for our own Fr. Chris, is to instruct the penitent to turn himself into the authorities knowing that the penitent will almost certainly be sentenced to many years behind bars where the likelihood of him being abused, sexually or otherwise, by fellow inmates is greater than for any other crime. How is this any less public than what you just described? Even so, does the confessor ever divulge what was revealed to him in confession? ABSOLUTELY NOT!
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 02, 2012, 08:51:16 AM
The adjective "self-serving" was used to describe what you said, not you personally.

Please explain to me how 'self-serving' is not a pejorative.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/self-serving (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/self-serving)


Why are you insulting me?   ???
Nice self serving statement,
FatherGiryus, with all due respect, that's not an insult.

What a laughable, pedantic, and asinine distinction. But hey, if it means that making scathing remarks like this acceptable behavior, then I suppose I could be supportive of such pedantry.
If you have a problem with that distinction, then I suggest you take that up with the moderators via private message, since that's our modus operandi for deciding whether something is a personal insult or not. Otherwise, if we were to forbid criticism of what other people say, then we would end up moderating this forum into non-existence.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 02, 2012, 09:09:34 AM


In general with perverted priests, I wonder if while doing these vile deeds, if they ever own up to their perversion and confess it. Could they have been in deep denial? Had they confessed their perversion, their own spiritual fathers would have asked them to turn themselves into the authorities. Or perhaps not, especially if they had confessed to another pervert priest.
I honestly have no idea. I don't know if he justified it to himself, if it drove him insane with guilt, or if he somehow disassociated himself from it. I have been wondering what he did with his Confessor. If he didn't confess, then he was consistently eating and drinking damnation unto himself for nearly twenty years (I can't fathom how he could do that in the Church, and how he could bring himself to serve in the altar without cowering in fear). If he confessed the sin, then either his confessor didn't say anything to the diocese or was covering it up. Either way, if this man confessed the sins he had committed then his confessor should be defrocked immediately. Confessor confidentiality doesn't extend to the abuse of children.
Actually, yes it does. If you want, I can redirect you to the many threads where our immediately past admin, Fr. Chris, has stated very clearly that UNDER ABSOLUTELY NO CIRCUMSTANCES is a priest to EVER reveal to others what is revealed to him in confession and that the penalty for violating this rule is defrocking.
The penance according to St. Basil for a Priest or Monk who seduces children is for them to be publically defrocked, spit on by the laity, bound in chains for months, submitted to manual labor for years under the auspices of a spiritual father, to be always accompanied by a brother anywhere he goes, and to never be allowed around children again. What about this is confidential?
The penance nowadays, at least for our own Fr. Chris, is to instruct the penitent to turn himself into the authorities knowing that the penitent will almost certainly be sentenced to many years behind bars where the likelihood of him being abused, sexually or otherwise, by fellow inmates is greater than for any other crime. How is this any less public than what you just described? Even so, does the confessor ever divulge what was revealed to him in confession? ABSOLUTELY NOT!
I figured that, rather than merely post links to the thread Asteriktos and I both referenced earlier, it might be even better for me to quote what Fr. Chris had to say on this subject.

Nothing told to Christ in Confession and witnessed by me can be divulged. Full stop.

However, there is always the counseling after the confession. Yes, if/when criminal activity is confessed, I do my best to reinforce to the penitent the importance of being repentant, part of which is setting the record straight.

Yes, I've driven children to stores to apologize to the store owner for stealing something, but it's the child who does all the talking; I say nothing.

If a person confesses something criminal to me that would be such as murder, child molestation, etc I would do all I could to help the penitent go to the legal authorities and help the victim or family have peace of mind. Thank God nothing like that has occurred yet....I have enough trouble with 'incense getting in my eyes' when hearing the pain caused to my parishioners from "every day" sins, and nothing as demonic as violent crime.

But, nothing said in Confession can be divulged. Ever.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 02, 2012, 09:35:26 AM
Quote
The penance according to St. Basil for a Priest or Monk who seduces children is for them to be publically defrocked, spit on by the laity, bound in chains for months, submitted to manual labor for years under the auspices of a spiritual father, to be always accompanied by a brother anywhere he goes, and to never be allowed around children again.

I'd like to think that this is one directive that could never be subject to economia.

Perhaps that should just be what happens to child molesters in general.

Yeah, they aren't exactly the most well-loved people in the world.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Zenovia on July 02, 2012, 01:18:21 PM
Wasn't a woman possessed of seven demons in the Bible?  Anyway a person can be exorcised if it is within their will, but is it within their will?  I know in the Netherlands they found that one out of twenty five people hear voices speaking to them.  Would it be so difficult for someone to succumb to those voices if they are weak and want certain benefits or gratifications?  I don't think so.  :o

Hearing voices does not a possessed man make.  Hearing voices is most likely the result of one (or more) of the many psychiatric disorders that can cause auditory hallucinations.  There is no reason to believe, in most cases at the least, that demons are to blame.

A man is to blame for the crime he commits, whether he has willingly subjected himself to a demon, or whether he did it through his own will.  It's important though for possession to be recognized and that it does exist, and people, especially Christians, should be warned about the consequences it has to their eternal soul. :)    

And it is important for you to recognize that mental illness is not possession.  Or when you get the flue do you blame demons?

Oh, so you are denying the existence of demons and of possession?  Is this a new Church belief, or is this scrupulous adherence to  current 'Western'  attitudes and modes, simply an individual opinion?  Just curious!   ???

Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: primuspilus on July 02, 2012, 01:23:06 PM
Quote
Oh, so you are denying the existence of demons and of possession?  Is this a new Church belief, or is this scrupulous adherence to  current 'Western'  attitudes and modes, simply an individual opinion?  Just curious!
No, he does not think that. What I believe he saying is that demons arent responsible for everything. Alot of times, the Devil doesnt have to do anything. We help him just fine all by ourselves sometimes.

PP
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Cavaradossi on July 02, 2012, 01:40:36 PM
The adjective "self-serving" was used to describe what you said, not you personally.

Please explain to me how 'self-serving' is not a pejorative.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/self-serving (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/self-serving)


Why are you insulting me?   ???
Nice self serving statement,
FatherGiryus, with all due respect, that's not an insult.

What a laughable, pedantic, and asinine distinction. But hey, if it means that making scathing remarks like this acceptable behavior, then I suppose I could be supportive of such pedantry.
If you have a problem with that distinction, then I suggest you take that up with the moderators via private message, since that's our modus operandi for deciding whether something is a personal insult or not. Otherwise, if we were to forbid criticism of what other people say, then we would end up moderating this forum into non-existence.

Point taken. I was being somewhat facetious, though maybe that was not apparent.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 02, 2012, 01:43:08 PM
Wasn't a woman possessed of seven demons in the Bible?  Anyway a person can be exorcised if it is within their will, but is it within their will?  I know in the Netherlands they found that one out of twenty five people hear voices speaking to them.  Would it be so difficult for someone to succumb to those voices if they are weak and want certain benefits or gratifications?  I don't think so.  :o

Hearing voices does not a possessed man make.  Hearing voices is most likely the result of one (or more) of the many psychiatric disorders that can cause auditory hallucinations.  There is no reason to believe, in most cases at the least, that demons are to blame.

A man is to blame for the crime he commits, whether he has willingly subjected himself to a demon, or whether he did it through his own will.  It's important though for possession to be recognized and that it does exist, and people, especially Christians, should be warned about the consequences it has to their eternal soul. :)    

And it is important for you to recognize that mental illness is not possession.  Or when you get the flue do you blame demons?

Oh, so you are denying the existence of demons and of possession?
No, he is not saying that.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Zenovia on July 02, 2012, 01:58:05 PM
Quote
Oh, so you are denying the existence of demons and of possession?  Is this a new Church belief, or is this scrupulous adherence to  current 'Western'  attitudes and modes, simply an individual opinion?  Just curious!
No, he does not think that. What I believe he saying is that demons arent responsible for everything. Alot of times, the Devil doesnt have to do anything. We help him just fine all by ourselves sometimes.

PP

I would like to answer his question on whether the flu is caused by demons by saying both yes and no.  The  virus itself is not a demon, but the directing and influence a person had in coming  in contact with the virus could have been caused by a demon.      

Elder Porphyrios said that everything we do affects others in some way, and that we should never curse, or even wish something bad towards anyone.  Every evil within a person sends out demons, but look these things are very mystical and spiritually deep.  They are not something that can be readily understood by people who have been raised in a society as 'tangibly' disposed as ours.  :)      
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: vamrat on July 02, 2012, 02:38:52 PM
Has the priest confessed to this yet?  I'm glad that the Bishop is taking this seriously but, innocent until proven guilty, yo.  The police have confiscated electronics from his home to search for evidence.  If he confesses or evidence is found then perhaps I will condemn his actions and the mockery made of his office.  Until then...


Lord have mercy.  (A better, more multipurpose prayer does not exist.)

Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Michael36 on July 02, 2012, 02:57:15 PM


In general with perverted priests, I wonder if while doing these vile deeds, if they ever own up to their perversion and confess it. Could they have been in deep denial? Had they confessed their perversion, their own spiritual fathers would have asked them to turn themselves into the authorities. Or perhaps not, especially if they had confessed to another pervert priest.
I honestly have no idea. I don't know if he justified it to himself, if it drove him insane with guilt, or if he somehow disassociated himself from it. I have been wondering what he did with his Confessor. If he didn't confess, then he was consistently eating and drinking damnation unto himself for nearly twenty years (I can't fathom how he could do that in the Church, and how he could bring himself to serve in the altar without cowering in fear). If he confessed the sin, then either his confessor didn't say anything to the diocese or was covering it up. Either way, if this man confessed the sins he had committed then his confessor should be defrocked immediately. Confessor confidentiality doesn't extend to the abuse of children.
Actually, yes it does. If you want, I can redirect you to the many threads where our immediately past admin, Fr. Chris, has stated very clearly that UNDER ABSOLUTELY NO CIRCUMSTANCES is a priest to EVER reveal to others what is revealed to him in confession and that the penalty for violating this rule is defrocking.
The penance according to St. Basil for a Priest or Monk who seduces children is for them to be publically defrocked, spit on by the laity, bound in chains for months, submitted to manual labor for years under the auspices of a spiritual father, to be always accompanied by a brother anywhere he goes, and to never be allowed around children again. What about this is confidential?
The penance nowadays, at least for our own Fr. Chris, is to instruct the penitent to turn himself into the authorities knowing that the penitent will almost certainly be sentenced to many years behind bars where the likelihood of him being abused, sexually or otherwise, by fellow inmates is greater than for any other crime. How is this any less public than what you just described? Even so, does the confessor ever divulge what was revealed to him in confession? ABSOLUTELY NOT!
But he didn't turn himself into the police and the majority don't, which makes that penance useless unless it's enforced.

Also, they usually don't put child molesters in with the general population nowadays. They're basically put in solitary confinement for their own protection.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Michael36 on July 02, 2012, 03:00:20 PM
Has the priest confessed to this yet?  I'm glad that the Bishop is taking this seriously but, innocent until proven guilty, yo.  The police have confiscated electronics from his home to search for evidence.  If he confesses or evidence is found then perhaps I will condemn his actions and the mockery made of his office.  Until then...


Lord have mercy.  (A better, more multipurpose prayer does not exist.)


He's absolutely guilty. Multiple witnesses and they found pictures.
Trust me, if I had any doubts I would be sticking up for him.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 02, 2012, 03:28:13 PM


In general with perverted priests, I wonder if while doing these vile deeds, if they ever own up to their perversion and confess it. Could they have been in deep denial? Had they confessed their perversion, their own spiritual fathers would have asked them to turn themselves into the authorities. Or perhaps not, especially if they had confessed to another pervert priest.
I honestly have no idea. I don't know if he justified it to himself, if it drove him insane with guilt, or if he somehow disassociated himself from it. I have been wondering what he did with his Confessor. If he didn't confess, then he was consistently eating and drinking damnation unto himself for nearly twenty years (I can't fathom how he could do that in the Church, and how he could bring himself to serve in the altar without cowering in fear). If he confessed the sin, then either his confessor didn't say anything to the diocese or was covering it up. Either way, if this man confessed the sins he had committed then his confessor should be defrocked immediately. Confessor confidentiality doesn't extend to the abuse of children.
Actually, yes it does. If you want, I can redirect you to the many threads where our immediately past admin, Fr. Chris, has stated very clearly that UNDER ABSOLUTELY NO CIRCUMSTANCES is a priest to EVER reveal to others what is revealed to him in confession and that the penalty for violating this rule is defrocking.
The penance according to St. Basil for a Priest or Monk who seduces children is for them to be publically defrocked, spit on by the laity, bound in chains for months, submitted to manual labor for years under the auspices of a spiritual father, to be always accompanied by a brother anywhere he goes, and to never be allowed around children again. What about this is confidential?
The penance nowadays, at least for our own Fr. Chris, is to instruct the penitent to turn himself into the authorities knowing that the penitent will almost certainly be sentenced to many years behind bars where the likelihood of him being abused, sexually or otherwise, by fellow inmates is greater than for any other crime. How is this any less public than what you just described? Even so, does the confessor ever divulge what was revealed to him in confession? ABSOLUTELY NOT!
But he didn't turn himself into the police and the majority don't, which makes that penance useless unless it's enforced.

Also, they usually don't put child molesters in with the general population nowadays. They're basically put in solitary confinement for their own protection.
You're missing my point. My point is that, regardless of how public the penance may be, A PRIEST IS TO NEVER DIVULGE WHAT IS REVEALED TO HIM IN CONFESSION. How much more clarity do you need?
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Cognomen on July 02, 2012, 03:31:51 PM
Not everyone views everything through the lens of forum moderation rules.

Your comments miss the point at an astonishing rate.  While the previous statement applies to your posts rather than you personally, it can also be interpreted as insulting.

Sorry I've contributed to one of the multiple tangents in this thread.

Lord have mercy on this situation.


The adjective "self-serving" was used to describe what you said, not you personally.

Please explain to me how 'self-serving' is not a pejorative.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/self-serving (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/self-serving)


Why are you insulting me?   ???
Nice self serving statement,
FatherGiryus, with all due respect, that's not an insult.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: orthonorm on July 02, 2012, 03:35:19 PM
In nearly every State of the Union, any Priest withholding such evidence is a criminal and as such they should at least submit themselves to the penalty of the law.

They can keep the "seal of confession" within their jail cell. Perhaps the next Priest will act more sensibly.

Even therapists must report such crimes, in some States, well after the fact they have been committed if they know enough of detail, even if the person having committed them is no longer a threat to anyone.



Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 02, 2012, 03:36:45 PM


In general with perverted priests, I wonder if while doing these vile deeds, if they ever own up to their perversion and confess it. Could they have been in deep denial? Had they confessed their perversion, their own spiritual fathers would have asked them to turn themselves into the authorities. Or perhaps not, especially if they had confessed to another pervert priest.
I honestly have no idea. I don't know if he justified it to himself, if it drove him insane with guilt, or if he somehow disassociated himself from it. I have been wondering what he did with his Confessor. If he didn't confess, then he was consistently eating and drinking damnation unto himself for nearly twenty years (I can't fathom how he could do that in the Church, and how he could bring himself to serve in the altar without cowering in fear). If he confessed the sin, then either his confessor didn't say anything to the diocese or was covering it up. Either way, if this man confessed the sins he had committed then his confessor should be defrocked immediately. Confessor confidentiality doesn't extend to the abuse of children.
Actually, yes it does. If you want, I can redirect you to the many threads where our immediately past admin, Fr. Chris, has stated very clearly that UNDER ABSOLUTELY NO CIRCUMSTANCES is a priest to EVER reveal to others what is revealed to him in confession and that the penalty for violating this rule is defrocking.
The penance according to St. Basil for a Priest or Monk who seduces children is for them to be publically defrocked, spit on by the laity, bound in chains for months, submitted to manual labor for years under the auspices of a spiritual father, to be always accompanied by a brother anywhere he goes, and to never be allowed around children again. What about this is confidential?

Michael, would you be so kind as to list a source for this?

Thanks.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Cognomen on July 02, 2012, 03:36:54 PM

But he didn't turn himself into the police and the majority don't, which makes that penance useless unless it's enforced.

Also, they usually don't put child molesters in with the general population nowadays. They're basically put in solitary confinement for their own protection.
You're missing my point. My point is that, regardless of how public the penance may be, A PRIEST IS TO NEVER DIVULGE WHAT IS REVEALED TO HIM IN CONFESSION. How much more clarity do you need?

Please try to consider context, PtA. Michael36 came to this board for a bit of help, guidance, venting, and what not. Your bickering and debating (and now internet shouting) is unhelpful to this discussion. Create a new thread if you want to pontificate to people about the topic.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: orthonorm on July 02, 2012, 03:38:31 PM

But he didn't turn himself into the police and the majority don't, which makes that penance useless unless it's enforced.

Also, they usually don't put child molesters in with the general population nowadays. They're basically put in solitary confinement for their own protection.
You're missing my point. My point is that, regardless of how public the penance may be, A PRIEST IS TO NEVER DIVULGE WHAT IS REVEALED TO HIM IN CONFESSION. How much more clarity do you need?

Please try to consider context, PtA. Michael36 came to this board for a bit of help, guidance, venting, and what not. Your bickering and debating (and now internet shouting) is unhelpful to this discussion. Create a new thread if you want to pontificate to people about the topic.

This has been suggested.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Cognomen on July 02, 2012, 03:41:52 PM
In nearly every State of the Union, any Priest withholding such evidence is a criminal and as such they should at least submit themselves to the penalty of the law.

They can keep the "seal of confession" within their jail cell. Perhaps the next Priest will act more sensibly.

True, but which priest are you referring to?  I might have missed it, but I doubt the molester confessed anything of this sort to anyone.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: orthonorm on July 02, 2012, 03:51:54 PM
In nearly every State of the Union, any Priest withholding such evidence is a criminal and as such they should at least submit themselves to the penalty of the law.

They can keep the "seal of confession" within their jail cell. Perhaps the next Priest will act more sensibly.

True, but which priest are you referring to?  I might have missed it, but I doubt the molester confessed anything of this sort to anyone.

Tangent about the "seal of confession".
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Cognomen on July 02, 2012, 03:53:50 PM
In nearly every State of the Union, any Priest withholding such evidence is a criminal and as such they should at least submit themselves to the penalty of the law.

They can keep the "seal of confession" within their jail cell. Perhaps the next Priest will act more sensibly.

True, but which priest are you referring to?  I might have missed it, but I doubt the molester confessed anything of this sort to anyone.

Tangent about the "seal of confession".

Right, thanks.  And yes, if he confessed it to another priest, the priest should go to prison.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: vamrat on July 02, 2012, 03:58:48 PM
Has the priest confessed to this yet?  I'm glad that the Bishop is taking this seriously but, innocent until proven guilty, yo.  The police have confiscated electronics from his home to search for evidence.  If he confesses or evidence is found then perhaps I will condemn his actions and the mockery made of his office.  Until then...


Lord have mercy.  (A better, more multipurpose prayer does not exist.)


He's absolutely guilty. Multiple witnesses and they found pictures.
Trust me, if I had any doubts I would be sticking up for him.

The multiple witnesses don't really convince me, since testimony has been shown to be false before, though if pictures were found in his possession of some of the victims, then I guess that would be damning evidence.  I hadn't seen any of this after a perfunctory search, but I really didn't look that hard.

If this is true, then God have mercy.


EDIT - And may God be with you and your fellow parishioners.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 02, 2012, 04:02:59 PM
Not everyone views everything through the lens of forum moderation rules.
And yet those rules are based on something outside themselves. I'm viewing this particular situation with FatherGiryus through the lens of those principles on which the rules of this forum are founded, principles that would exist even if this forum never did. According to those principles, a personal insult is an attack on one's person, not a criticism of one's ideas. Calling one's statement self-serving is not a criticism of one's person.

Your comments miss the point at an astonishing rate.  While the previous statement applies to your posts rather than you personally, it can also be interpreted as insulting.
No insult taken. I may disagree with your opinion, but I don't take such a criticism of my opinions personally.

Sorry I've contributed to one of the multiple tangents in this thread.

Lord have mercy on this situation.


The adjective "self-serving" was used to describe what you said, not you personally.

Please explain to me how 'self-serving' is not a pejorative.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/self-serving (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/self-serving)


Why are you insulting me?   ???
Nice self serving statement,
FatherGiryus, with all due respect, that's not an insult.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 02, 2012, 04:07:15 PM

But he didn't turn himself into the police and the majority don't, which makes that penance useless unless it's enforced.

Also, they usually don't put child molesters in with the general population nowadays. They're basically put in solitary confinement for their own protection.
You're missing my point. My point is that, regardless of how public the penance may be, A PRIEST IS TO NEVER DIVULGE WHAT IS REVEALED TO HIM IN CONFESSION. How much more clarity do you need?

Please try to consider context, PtA. Michael36 came to this board for a bit of help, guidance, venting, and what not. Your bickering and debating (and now internet shouting) is unhelpful to this discussion. Create a new thread if you want to pontificate to people about the topic.
Actually, I see my responses to Michael36's issue with the secrecy of the confessional as pertinent to this topic, so I see no reason to start a thread elsewhere. Michael36 has chosen to use this thread for more than the purposes he originally stated in the OP, so I think it appropriate to address on this thread the additional concerns he states on this thread about his priest.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Michael36 on July 02, 2012, 06:50:23 PM

Michael, would you be so kind as to list a source for this?

Thanks.
"A cleric or monk who seduces youths or young boys or is found kissing or in any other impure situation is to be publicly flogged and lose his tonsure. He is to be bound in iron chains. For six months he will languish in prison-like confinement and on three days of each week shall fast on barley bread in the evening. After this he will spend another six months under the custodial care of a spiritual elder, remaining in a segregated cell, and giving himself to manual work and prayer, subject to vigils and prayers. He may go for walks but always under the custodial care of two spiritual brethren, and he shall never again associate with youths in private conversation nor in counseling them." I know it comes from St. Basil of Cesaerea, but I can't find the letter this is from,
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Michael36 on July 02, 2012, 06:51:37 PM

But he didn't turn himself into the police and the majority don't, which makes that penance useless unless it's enforced.

Also, they usually don't put child molesters in with the general population nowadays. They're basically put in solitary confinement for their own protection.
You're missing my point. My point is that, regardless of how public the penance may be, A PRIEST IS TO NEVER DIVULGE WHAT IS REVEALED TO HIM IN CONFESSION. How much more clarity do you need?

Please try to consider context, PtA. Michael36 came to this board for a bit of help, guidance, venting, and what not. Your bickering and debating (and now internet shouting) is unhelpful to this discussion. Create a new thread if you want to pontificate to people about the topic.
Actually, I see my responses to Michael36's issue with the secrecy of the confessional as pertinent to this topic, so I see no reason to start a thread elsewhere. Michael36 has chosen to use this thread for more than the purposes he originally stated in the OP, so I think it appropriate to address on this thread the additional concerns he states on this thread about his priest.
Forgive me, I've been venting and I'm far from an expert in Canon Law.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: HouseOfGod on July 02, 2012, 07:03:56 PM
All I have to say is this: Lord, have mercy.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: yeshuaisiam on July 02, 2012, 07:34:09 PM
Wish the bishop would have taken him on a boat trip and tied a millstone to his neck and cast him under.
Funny how the most vocal advocates for Christianity and against heresy on this forum are also among the first to make the anti-Christian call for someone's death when he molests little children. ::)

The quote was a parody of what Christ said.
Luke 17:2 is your assignment.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: yeshuaisiam on July 02, 2012, 07:35:06 PM
Wish the bishop would have taken him on a boat trip and tied a millstone to his neck and cast him under.

And the bishop then would be a murderer. And you think this is a good response!?  Shame on you for even writing this here on a thread for someone who is genuinely upset over this.

Luke 17:2
Consult Christ's words.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: yeshuaisiam on July 02, 2012, 07:40:21 PM
Wish the bishop would have taken him on a boat trip and tied a millstone to his neck and cast him under.
Funny how the most vocal advocates for Christianity and against heresy on this forum are also among the first to make the anti-Christian call for someone's death when he molests little children. ::)
What makes you say it is anti-Christian to call for someone's death when he molests little children?
Christ has taught us to forgive(he himself forgave murderers, rapists, etc. I've heard worse crimes in hagiographies), and Paul said to leave vengeance to the Lord.
I am having a difficult time not hating him and I may have to abstain from the chalice tomorrow, but I wish him an unnaturally long life so that his repentance may save him. That's the thing I keep reminding myself of, that the judgment he faces is something the most adamant death penalty proponent would cringe at. He's sick. God help him. The death penalty (which he won't get in California) will only cut short his chance to repent which can be said of any hardened sinner. I cannot in good conscience accept it.

This is true, he taught us to forgive.

Again, his example for us for people who harm children leading them to stumble is:
   
New International Version:
It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.

I wonder if some of you being so light on this subject, even have children.  I have 5.  I am incredibly defensive of my children always.  I agree with our God's example he spoke.  Do you?
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: yeshuaisiam on July 02, 2012, 07:42:56 PM
Has the priest confessed to this yet?  I'm glad that the Bishop is taking this seriously but, innocent until proven guilty, yo.  The police have confiscated electronics from his home to search for evidence.  If he confesses or evidence is found then perhaps I will condemn his actions and the mockery made of his office.  Until then...


Lord have mercy.  (A better, more multipurpose prayer does not exist.)


He's absolutely guilty. Multiple witnesses and they found pictures.
Trust me, if I had any doubts I would be sticking up for him.

The multiple witnesses don't really convince me, since testimony has been shown to be false before, though if pictures were found in his possession of some of the victims, then I guess that would be damning evidence.  I hadn't seen any of this after a perfunctory search, but I really didn't look that hard.

If this is true, then God have mercy.


EDIT - And may God be with you and your fellow parishioners.

Multiple witnesses would not always convince me either on this matter.

What would convince me is a child whom I know well, be it my own, a relatives, or other (so long as I know them and their personality), would look me in the eye and tell me.... There is a direct look that comes out of children, when you know its true, without doubt.   That's all it would take for me.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: yeshuaisiam on July 02, 2012, 07:45:13 PM
In nearly every State of the Union, any Priest withholding such evidence is a criminal and as such they should at least submit themselves to the penalty of the law.

They can keep the "seal of confession" within their jail cell. Perhaps the next Priest will act more sensibly.

True, but which priest are you referring to?  I might have missed it, but I doubt the molester confessed anything of this sort to anyone.

Tangent about the "seal of confession".

Right, thanks.  And yes, if he confessed it to another priest, the priest should go to prison.

By American law, they have to reveal if they are "going to" or "continue to" endanger somebody.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 02, 2012, 07:57:35 PM
Wish the bishop would have taken him on a boat trip and tied a millstone to his neck and cast him under.
Funny how the most vocal advocates for Christianity and against heresy on this forum are also among the first to make the anti-Christian call for someone's death when he molests little children. ::)

The quote was a parody of what Christ said.
Luke 17:2 is your assignment.
I'm quite familiar with Luke 17:2, thank you very much! I still don't see how that verse endorses your desire to see humans enforce it against child molesters through the use of the death penalty.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Zenovia on July 02, 2012, 07:59:31 PM
I would say by all accounts, this is not the work of the possessed.  Influenced.... absolutely, deceived... certainly, but not possessed.

The devil does not need to possess a man to make him do such evil.  Besides, true possession is hard to hide.  Even those with 'perfect possession' (those who do not struggle and welcome the possession) still exude the unmistakable air of evil.  They also usually rise to the heights of society, because the devil rewards his own.

If you ask any spiritual father, you will find out that 'evil' can hide itself very well, and will only be detected by the very pure hearted...usually a spiritual Elder.  I can't imagine how any human being in their right mind, is able to risk so much, and do so much damage to their 'Church', and to Christianity as a whole as to molest a child, in the same way I can't imagine anyone murdering an innocent child or even a wife as in the case of  OJ Simpson? 

Of course one can say murder is a case of temporary insanity, but molesting a child wouldn't fall into that category.  ??? 
 

Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: orthonorm on July 02, 2012, 09:43:55 PM
In nearly every State of the Union, any Priest withholding such evidence is a criminal and as such they should at least submit themselves to the penalty of the law.

They can keep the "seal of confession" within their jail cell. Perhaps the next Priest will act more sensibly.

True, but which priest are you referring to?  I might have missed it, but I doubt the molester confessed anything of this sort to anyone.

Tangent about the "seal of confession".

Right, thanks.  And yes, if he confessed it to another priest, the priest should go to prison.

By American law, they have to reveal if they are "going to" or "continue to" endanger somebody.

Nope. Not when it comes to certain crimes, especially those involving child abuse.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: yeshuaisiam on July 02, 2012, 09:59:12 PM
Wish the bishop would have taken him on a boat trip and tied a millstone to his neck and cast him under.
Funny how the most vocal advocates for Christianity and against heresy on this forum are also among the first to make the anti-Christian call for someone's death when he molests little children. ::)

The quote was a parody of what Christ said.
Luke 17:2 is your assignment.
I'm quite familiar with Luke 17:2, thank you very much! I still don't see how that verse endorses your desire to see humans enforce it against child molesters through the use of the death penalty.

Just being sarcastic brother :)
Not through the use of the death penalty, but specifically how our God described it.  They'd be better off.

Not sure if you have children, but I know with my children, or children that my family is close to, this would be the solution.  I have absolutely no room in my heart for people that hurt little kids.  Millstone them & chunk em over.

Honestly on this one subject, endorsement really would not matter to me.  If it was one of my children and I knew for sure it happened, I would not hesitate.  This is one of those things that goes down DEEP...  I think that Jesus saw this, understood this, and agreed with it.   I certainly agree with him.   A millstone & the sea is certainly better off than a blow torch and a pipe wrench.

The OP's story is tragic, and I would not remain calm if it was my children.  I pray that the parish heals.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 03, 2012, 12:09:48 AM
Wasn't a woman possessed of seven demons in the Bible?  Anyway a person can be exorcised if it is within their will, but is it within their will?  I know in the Netherlands they found that one out of twenty five people hear voices speaking to them.  Would it be so difficult for someone to succumb to those voices if they are weak and want certain benefits or gratifications?  I don't think so.  :o

Hearing voices does not a possessed man make.  Hearing voices is most likely the result of one (or more) of the many psychiatric disorders that can cause auditory hallucinations.  There is no reason to believe, in most cases at the least, that demons are to blame.

A man is to blame for the crime he commits, whether he has willingly subjected himself to a demon, or whether he did it through his own will.  It's important though for possession to be recognized and that it does exist, and people, especially Christians, should be warned about the consequences it has to their eternal soul. :)    

And it is important for you to recognize that mental illness is not possession.  Or when you get the flue do you blame demons?

Oh, so you are denying the existence of demons and of possession?  Is this a new Church belief, or is this scrupulous adherence to  current 'Western'  attitudes and modes, simply an individual opinion?  Just curious!   ???



No, I am saying exactly what I said, and I didn't say demons don't exist.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: LizaSymonenko on July 03, 2012, 07:12:01 AM
Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.

Hey Augustin717, can you provide any proof of these accusations?  I'd like to know in which parishes and monasteries it is considered normal to have drunken, womanizing, sacrament selling clergy and monastics.  Could you provide a bishop's name who thinks this is "normal"?

Since you don't openly state your Faith, nor your jurisdiction, it's hard to guess the location of these troubled parishes.

I don't know how things are done over "back at your home", but, it is rather un-Orthodox to allow these things to go on to such an extent that they seem normal to the faithful where you live.

It certainly isn't normal in the States.  I would think it shouldn't be "normal" anywhere, but, the odd occasion of a man falling in to sin.

It is the teaching of the Orthodox Faith that the clergy (and all faithful) not commit adultery, nor fall victim to any addiction.  IF this is truly going on to such an extent, it needs to be addressed.  To address it, the public needs proof of such indiscretions.   

Please provide proper reference.  Perhaps we can reach out to the bishops or even to the patriarch and inform him of these goings on.

Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: jmbejdl on July 03, 2012, 07:36:17 AM
Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.
odd, I know plenty of Romanians Orthodox from back home, and none of them have the memories of it that you do.
Those that frequent the same places like you, I suspect are  given to much embellishing, pious fabrications etc. i mean, forgive me but I saw a Romanian  lady there that looked and behaved like a prude nun. No, priests used to be better or worse, but NONE I knew of put on airs of being a "Spiritual Father".
I go to a Romanian parish now, and I agree with Ialmisry, that hasn't been my experience of Romanians. Spiritual Fatherhood is part of the tradition of the Church. It is why we call our Priests "father". If this was not a practice in the old-country, then they were wrong.
Hmm, it's because you know, when they get here, those ordinary, "nominal" Orthodox kinda tend to skip[ church even more than they did back home, and then you are left with a concentration of churchier types, which gives you no insight of how things go on in the old country.
Maybe where you're from this is true. It's definitely not true where my wife's from, and where I came to the Church - had it been so I very much doubt that Orthodoxy would have impressed me in the way it did. I know of one priest total from the area that is considered to be rather too worldly and the fact that he is is seen as somewhat of a scandal. The churches are full to bursting at every service (often people have to settle for listening from outside the doors and I'm not talking just on major feasts). What you described earlier in this thread bears no resemblance at all to my experience and as I lived an worked in Romania you certainly can't claim that I have no insight as to how things go in the old country. Spiritual Fatherhood is part of Tradition. Our priest (also Moldovan, maybe that's the difference) referred to it just this past Sunday - not in a self-aggrandising way as you seemed to be implying but in an almost offhand manner, as though it were so normal there was no need for further comment. It strikes me that maybe you have seen or heard of somewhat unhealthy relationships in the west (as have I) and assumed that this is what everyone means by Spiritual Father. It isn't. If I use it I simply mean my confessor. Good confessors, priests who really take their pastoral care seriously should be like Fathers to us. Thankfully all those to whom I have confessed have been.

James
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: augustin717 on July 03, 2012, 02:02:12 PM
James,
Normal people in RM just don't refer to their confessors ("duhovnic" word not widely used in actual speech) as "spiritual fathers" ("Parinte duhovnicesc" never used in actual speech as it would sound pedantic  in the extreme); they'll call them "popa" (most often), "parinte" or "domn' parinte". Believe me I never heard someone in flesh and blood talk of "parintele duhovnicesc". i now, of course, know of a loony younger, monkabee priest back in my home diocese that I guess through contact with Athos and whatnot, introduced previously unknown practices there (like 1 hour confessions, "life confessions", asking for blessings to go here and there, take a shower, soon to take a
*&&^, I wouldn't be surprised etc). He has a small following of mostly socially awkward and inept young people and middle aged, semi-educated ladies, but man, all clergy in the diocese make fun of him, and the bishop "persecutes" him too. So, it's not normal there. But perhaps it's normal elsewhere. Who knows.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: augustin717 on July 03, 2012, 02:16:28 PM
Well, perhaps if the bizarro  "spiritual father" mentality didn't exist to such a large extent as evidenced in the OP things like this would be harder to happen. I like my priests tipsy, a bit womanizing, bored by "spirituality" and selling, you know, sacraments. I guarantee you, this sort of stuff doesn't happen all that often in such an environment.
IOW, what you want is something other than Orthodoxy.
No, it was ordinary , run of the mill Orthodoxy back home. In the parishes I mean. Monasteries are weirder.

Hey Augustin717, can you provide any proof of these accusations?  I'd like to know in which parishes and monasteries it is considered normal to have drunken, womanizing, sacrament selling clergy and monastics.  Could you provide a bishop's name who thinks this is "normal"?

Since you don't openly state your Faith, nor your jurisdiction, it's hard to guess the location of these troubled parishes.

I don't know how things are done over "back at your home", but, it is rather un-Orthodox to allow these things to go on to such an extent that they seem normal to the faithful where you live.

It certainly isn't normal in the States.  I would think it shouldn't be "normal" anywhere, but, the odd occasion of a man falling in to sin.

It is the teaching of the Orthodox Faith that the clergy (and all faithful) not commit adultery, nor fall victim to any addiction.  IF this is truly going on to such an extent, it needs to be addressed.  To address it, the public needs proof of such indiscretions.   

Please provide proper reference.  Perhaps we can reach out to the bishops or even to the patriarch and inform him of these goings on.


I have no kind feelings for "write the bishop" busybodies .
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: LizaSymonenko on July 03, 2012, 02:31:16 PM

I didn't ask you to have "feelings" for me, I asked for proof.

As obviously you cannot provide it, I claim all your accusations as false.




Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: augustin717 on July 03, 2012, 02:39:06 PM
You misread it, Liza. In my book those were not "accusations"at all but rather examples of a saner religious practice than the "AYSF" type which I find repellent ridiculous and self-aggrandizing in the extreme.
Title: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: LizaSymonenko on July 03, 2012, 02:52:08 PM
You misread it, Liza. In my book those were not "accusations"at all but rather examples of a saner religious practice than the "AYSF" type which I find repellent ridiculous and self-aggrandizing in the extreme.

Examples of saner religious practice includes womanizing, drunk clergy?  Really?

What Faith do you belong to?  The information you provide on your avatar really is ambiguous. 

Title: Re: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: Michael36 on July 03, 2012, 06:57:35 PM
James,
Normal people in RM just don't refer to their confessors ("duhovnic" word not widely used in actual speech) as "spiritual fathers" ("Parinte duhovnicesc" never used in actual speech as it would sound pedantic  in the extreme); they'll call them "popa" (most often), "parinte" or "domn' parinte". Believe me I never heard someone in flesh and blood talk of "parintele duhovnicesc". i now, of course, know of a loony younger, monkabee priest back in my home diocese that I guess through contact with Athos and whatnot, introduced previously unknown practices there (like 1 hour confessions, "life confessions", asking for blessings to go here and there, take a shower, soon to take a
*&&^, I wouldn't be surprised etc). He has a small following of mostly socially awkward and inept young people and middle aged, semi-educated ladies, but man, all clergy in the diocese make fun of him, and the bishop "persecutes" him too. So, it's not normal there. But perhaps it's normal elsewhere. Who knows.
Perhaps this is a regional phenomenon.What part of Romania are you from? My current priest is from Transylvania and grew up under communism. He, his family, and the parish totally contradict what you are saying. The only thing I noticed about him that differs from traditional Orthodox practice is that he won't accept his hand to be kissed when giving a blessing (fine by me, given recent events) though he says this is a personal preference rather than the Romanian practice.
Title: Re: Imperfect Clergy2
Post by: augustin717 on July 03, 2012, 07:45:22 PM
James,
Normal people in RM just don't refer to their confessors ("duhovnic" word not widely used in actual speech) as "spiritual fathers" ("Parinte duhovnicesc" never used in actual speech as it would sound pedantic  in the extreme); they'll call them "popa" (most often), "parinte" or "domn' parinte". Believe me I never heard someone in flesh and blood talk of "parintele duhovnicesc". i now, of course, know of a loony younger, monkabee priest back in my home diocese that I guess through contact with Athos and whatnot, introduced previously unknown practices there (like 1 hour confessions, "life confessions", asking for blessings to go here and there, take a shower, soon to take a
*&&^, I wouldn't be surprised etc). He has a small following of mostly socially awkward and inept young people and middle aged, semi-educated ladies, but man, all clergy in the diocese make fun of him, and the bishop "persecutes" him too. So, it's not normal there. But perhaps it's normal elsewhere. Who knows.
Perhaps this is a regional phenomenon.What part of Romania are you from? My current priest is from Transylvania and grew up under communism. He, his family, and the parish totally contradict what you are saying. The only thing I noticed about him that differs from traditional Orthodox practice is that he won't accept his hand to be kissed when giving a blessing (fine by me, given recent events) though he says this is a personal preference rather than the Romanian practice.
Man, in order to get an idea you'd have to live there for a while and also speak the language.  I do not even know what we are talking about right now: that many priests are way more human than those Conciliar Press booklets would allow you to think.
As i've said, whatever you experience here in America is not the same thing as oversees. Dynamics are much different. I know, having seen both.