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Moderated Forums => Faith Issues => Topic started by: 88Devin12 on July 03, 2012, 05:02:02 PM

Title: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 03, 2012, 05:02:02 PM
What are we to think about something like this?

http://stjohnthedivinejax.org/parish-information/youth-portal/acolyte-program

I don't want to immediately jump to conclusions, but this GOA parish seems to actually be allowing altar girls, which is not allowed in our church. I've seen wonderful "handmaiden" or "myrrh-bearer" programs where girls learn to take care of vestments, prosphora and other things, but I've never seen an example of girls actually being allowed to wear sticharion and serve in the altar as altar girls?

Is this a case of the Priest not knowing that this isn't allowed, or willing disobedience? Or is it even (God forbid) a Bishop allowing this?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: LizaSymonenko on July 03, 2012, 05:05:14 PM

It doesn't actually say the girls are in the altar.

Perhaps they hold candles, are in charge of the antidoron, etc...
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 03, 2012, 05:16:07 PM

It doesn't actually say the girls are in the altar.

Perhaps they hold candles, are in charge of the antidoron, etc...

Yet they are wearing sticharion which is a clerical vestment reserved for those serving at the altar.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: HabteSelassie on July 03, 2012, 05:23:29 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


It doesn't actually say the girls are in the altar.

Perhaps they hold candles, are in charge of the antidoron, etc...

I was going to say the same thing, did the OP actually investigate to see what services the girls actually perform? There is plenty they can do without going into the alter.  Young ladies help out during our Liturgy all the time, and no one but the clergy either go in the Altar or even handle the Holy Communion in any way.  Perhaps it is merely a semantics misunderstanding :)


It doesn't actually say the girls are in the altar.

Perhaps they hold candles, are in charge of the antidoron, etc...

Yet they are wearing sticharion which is a clerical vestment reserved for those serving at the altar.

That is a pretty big inference. I've made similar blunders about those who serve in the Coptic Church but are not actually deacons.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Shlomlokh on July 03, 2012, 05:27:49 PM

It doesn't actually say the girls are in the altar.

Perhaps they hold candles, are in charge of the antidoron, etc...

Yet they are wearing sticharion which is a clerical vestment reserved for those serving at the altar.
And they are called altar servers on the web page. I think it's odd and I don't see any need for it. I've never seen women in sticharia before.

In Christ,
Andrew
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: HabteSelassie on July 03, 2012, 05:32:22 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


It doesn't actually say the girls are in the altar.

Perhaps they hold candles, are in charge of the antidoron, etc...

Yet they are wearing sticharion which is a clerical vestment reserved for those serving at the altar.
And they are called altar servers on the web page. I think it's odd and I don't see any need for it. I've never seen women in sticharia before.

In Christ,
Andrew

So is someone going to email the priest there and inquire or are we going to just rubber neck like at a car crash and live on our assumptions?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Manalive on July 03, 2012, 05:36:10 PM
The only people that I've seen wearing sticharions have been serving-- either in the altar or at the kliros, and in the ROCOR tradition Readers are the only ones who wear the sticharions at the kliros. Not sure what the Greek tradition is but having girls dress the same way as boys wearing liturgical vestments is counterproductive and plain wrong.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Orthodox11 on July 03, 2012, 05:51:41 PM
The only people that I've seen wearing sticharions have been serving-- either in the altar or at the kliros, and in the ROCOR tradition Readers are the only ones who wear the sticharions at the kliros. Not sure what the Greek tradition is but having girls dress the same way as boys wearing liturgical vestments is counterproductive and plain wrong.

In the Greek tradition, readers will only wear sticharia when serving in the altar. If they're just reading, they will wear a black exorasson.

I have seen girls wearing sticharia in Antiochian churches. They were carrying candles, but not sure if they actually entered the altar.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: NicholasMyra on July 03, 2012, 06:00:57 PM
Cool.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: biro on July 03, 2012, 06:16:00 PM
We have women ushers at my parish. They are adults.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: mike on July 03, 2012, 06:17:36 PM
I wouldn't mind female altar servers.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 03, 2012, 06:23:55 PM
I wouldn't mind female altar servers.

How does that work out since they aren't allowed in the altar?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 03, 2012, 06:26:57 PM
We have women ushers at my parish. They are adults.


Ushers isn't a big deal like having a "handmaiden" or "myrrh-bearers" program isn't a big deal. But placing them in sticharions, calling them altar-girls and putting them behind the altar is a much bigger deal.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: mike on July 03, 2012, 06:30:48 PM
I wouldn't mind female altar servers.

How does that work out since they aren't allowed in the altar?

Everyone that has not a blessing from the bishop is not allowed in the altar.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: yeshuaisiam on July 03, 2012, 06:33:22 PM
I wouldn't mind female altar servers.

How does that work out since they aren't allowed in the altar?

Everyone that has not a blessing from the bishop is not allowed in the altar.
Females are not allowed in the altar.

This is one reason why baby boys at the completion of baptism are brought through the altar and girls are not.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 03, 2012, 06:33:45 PM
I wouldn't mind female altar servers.

How does that work out since they aren't allowed in the altar?

Everyone that has not a blessing from the bishop* is not allowed in the altar.

* or the Priest (with exceptions based on other qualifications)

There are cases where Nuns and others are able to go back there, but it isn't permanent and very short term (usually to retrieve something at a woman's monastery)
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: mike on July 03, 2012, 06:40:43 PM
I wouldn't mind female altar servers.

How does that work out since they aren't allowed in the altar?

Everyone that has not a blessing from the bishop is not allowed in the altar.
Females are not allowed in the altar.

This is one reason why baby boys at the completion of baptism are brought through the altar and girls are not.

You messed churching with baptism. And you are wrong too. Some priests bring girls to the altar.

I wouldn't mind female altar servers.

How does that work out since they aren't allowed in the altar?

Everyone that has not a blessing from the bishop* is not allowed in the altar.

* or the Priest (with exceptions based on other qualifications)

We both were wrong. Only the emperor can allow non clergy into the altar.

http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0835/_P3X.HTM#4C
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: LizaSymonenko on July 03, 2012, 06:43:22 PM
I wouldn't mind female altar servers.

How does that work out since they aren't allowed in the altar?

Everyone that has not a blessing from the bishop is not allowed in the altar.
Females are not allowed in the altar.

This is one reason why baby boys at the completion of baptism are brought through the altar and girls are not.

Actually nobody, male or female, is allowed in the altar without permission from bishop/clergy.

Men are not allowed to enter "just because" they want to.

Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 03, 2012, 06:45:56 PM
I wouldn't mind female altar servers.

How does that work out since they aren't allowed in the altar?

Everyone that has not a blessing from the bishop is not allowed in the altar.
Females are not allowed in the altar.

This is one reason why baby boys at the completion of baptism are brought through the altar and girls are not.

You messed churching with baptism. And you are wrong too. Some priests bring girls to the altar.

The Priest do it wrongly, they have to stop at the doors of the altar, and typically lay the girl in front of the Royal Doors.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: yeshuaisiam on July 03, 2012, 06:46:09 PM
I wouldn't mind female altar servers.

How does that work out since they aren't allowed in the altar?

Everyone that has not a blessing from the bishop is not allowed in the altar.
Females are not allowed in the altar.

This is one reason why baby boys at the completion of baptism are brought through the altar and girls are not.

You messed churching with baptism. And you are wrong too. Some priests bring girls to the altar.

I wouldn't mind female altar servers.

How does that work out since they aren't allowed in the altar?

Everyone that has not a blessing from the bishop* is not allowed in the altar.

* or the Priest (with exceptions based on other qualifications)

We both were wrong. Only the emperor can allow non clergy into the altar.

http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0835/_P3X.HTM#4C

Last paragraph on the EO section - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altar_server
Women may not serve in the altar except in women's monasteries. In that case they do not receive the clerical tonsure (though they must be tonsured nuns), and do not vest in the sticharion, but wear their normal religious habit for attending services, and serve at a certain distance from the actual altar table. Normally, only older nuns may serve in the altar; but the Hegumenia (Abbess) is permitted to enter even if she is younger.

So yes I was wrong, but in the case of women's monasteries.  Otherwise I've always been told they were NOT supposed to be in the altar area.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: yeshuaisiam on July 03, 2012, 06:47:18 PM
I wouldn't mind female altar servers.

How does that work out since they aren't allowed in the altar?

Everyone that has not a blessing from the bishop is not allowed in the altar.
Females are not allowed in the altar.

This is one reason why baby boys at the completion of baptism are brought through the altar and girls are not.

You messed churching with baptism. And you are wrong too. Some priests bring girls to the altar.

The Priest do it wrongly, they have to stop at the doors of the altar, and typically lay the girl in front of the Royal Doors.

This is EXACTLY how I've seen it done a bunch of times.   Boys are taken back, girls are not.   Perhaps jurisdictional difference here??? I don't know.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 03, 2012, 06:47:28 PM
I wouldn't mind female altar servers.

How does that work out since they aren't allowed in the altar?

Everyone that has not a blessing from the bishop is not allowed in the altar.
Females are not allowed in the altar.

This is one reason why baby boys at the completion of baptism are brought through the altar and girls are not.

Actually nobody, male or female, is allowed in the altar without permission from bishop/clergy.

Men are not allowed to enter "just because" they want to.



This is very true, but just because a Priest permits "altar-girls" in doesn't make it okay or permissible. I've heard of this happening in mission churches without young men, but obviously this church has plenty of boys and young men serving and they have no excuse for having altar girls.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 03, 2012, 06:48:19 PM
I wouldn't mind female altar servers.

How does that work out since they aren't allowed in the altar?

Everyone that has not a blessing from the bishop is not allowed in the altar.
Females are not allowed in the altar.

This is one reason why baby boys at the completion of baptism are brought through the altar and girls are not.

You messed churching with baptism. And you are wrong too. Some priests bring girls to the altar.

The Priest do it wrongly, they have to stop at the doors of the altar, and typically lay the girl in front of the Royal Doors.

This is EXACTLY how I've seen it done a bunch of times.   Boys are taken back, girls are not.   Perhaps jurisdictional difference here??? I don't know.

Sounds more like Priests not knowing proper protocol or willingly defying Orthodox tradition for the sake of "equality". Or maybe they've just been reading the heterodox site "St. Nina's" too much.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: HabteSelassie on July 03, 2012, 07:07:29 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

We have women ushers at my parish. They are adults.


Ushers isn't a big deal like having a "handmaiden" or "myrrh-bearers" program isn't a big deal. But placing them in sticharions, calling them altar-girls and putting them behind the altar is a much bigger deal.

Again, you're going to have actually have to prove that these girls are being put behind the altar.  While I agree it is in poor taste and untraditional to have them wear the sticharions and also have the title altar-girl loosely applied, but theologically speaking, I think our only legitimate gripe could be if these girls are actually serving in the altar rather than merely dressing the part.  Until we know this is the case, throwing speculative stones seems premature.

Considering from their website the parish seems fairly upright and legitimate, I would assume they are as offended at women serving in the altar as the folks on this thread, so I could only imagine it isn't happening and I am giving them the benefit of the doubt on this one. 

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Asteriktos on July 03, 2012, 07:09:47 PM
So who here has tried to contact the church to get clarification?  :police:
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Orthodox11 on July 03, 2012, 07:11:19 PM
The Priest do it wrongly, they have to stop at the doors of the altar, and typically lay the girl in front of the Royal Doors.

That's actually fairly recent, and there are sources that indicate girls were also taken into the altar area during churching (though the earlier practice was to not take anyone in at all). Entry to the altar has nothing to do with gender, it has to do with purpose and order. If you haven't been ordained/tonsured to one of the orders of the priesthood, or at least been given a special blessing, having a penis does not grant you automatic access to the holy of holies.

As you said, such a blessing is occasionally given to women when there is a need (in convents, for example).
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: mike on July 03, 2012, 07:14:51 PM
Women may not serve in the altar except in women's monasteries. In that case they do not receive the clerical tonsure

What is a clerical tonsure?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: sheenj on July 03, 2012, 07:59:57 PM
Women may not serve in the altar except in women's monasteries. In that case they do not receive the clerical tonsure

What is a clerical tonsure?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonsure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonsure)
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Tallitot on July 03, 2012, 09:01:28 PM
i emailed the priest at the adress listed on the site. if he responds i'll let y'all know.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 03, 2012, 09:17:33 PM
And it is really supposed to be subdeacons on up serving at the altar, but there doesn't seem to be too much support for kicking out everyone else...
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 03, 2012, 09:17:33 PM
I'm so glad we have posters on OC.net who are willing to correct the errors of bishops who do things like permit altar girls, most likely with the knowledge of other bishops in their synods, when the synod is too stupid or heretical to be bothered with the correction.

Praise God from the heavens, praise him for OC.net where we are all able to be properly taught the truth, where our bishops have failed.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Ionnis on July 03, 2012, 10:19:59 PM
Why can't human beings who are female enter the altar?  Are they considered unclean?  Unworthy of participating in the divine services offered to God?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on July 03, 2012, 10:27:29 PM
Why can't human beings who are female enter the altar?  Are they considered unclean?

Depends on who you're asking and how you're asking. What is ritual "uncleanness"?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Orthodox11 on July 03, 2012, 10:31:40 PM
And it is really supposed to be subdeacons on up serving at the altar, but there doesn't seem to be too much support for kicking out everyone else...

The service for appointing a "taper-bearer" is now combined with the tonsuring of a reader, so readers may serve in the altar in that capacity. I know plenty of priests who support kicking everyone else out, but who don't want to cause needless scandal over what is a relatively trivial issue.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: HabteSelassie on July 03, 2012, 10:32:21 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Why can't human beings who are female enter the altar?  Are they considered unclean?  Unworthy of participating in the divine services offered to God?

In the Jewish traditions from the Old Testament Temple rituals, it was actually a bit of the opposite. Women, because they can give birth to new life, are actually considered a bit holier than men.  What men did as priests was atonement, repentance, redemption for sins and shortcomings.   This is what I think Paul meant when he said, "Women shall be saved through childbearing" in 1 Timothy 2:15.  The Jewish priests weren't punishing women by not allowing them in the Temple during menstruation, or by enforcing gendered segregation in Courts and the Temple services, these were there if anything in benefit to the women.  After all, separation is not always a punishment is it? The altar itself is sacred, separate, distinctive, is this a punishment for the altar? Further, if anything, NOBODY serves the day to day functions of the world more than women, so considering that the altar is service, isn't it a benefit of women to be removed from this service? After all, women have to do just about EVERY thing else in the world, often unappreciated and out of obligation, so why should they necessarily also want the burden of ministry and responsibility for other peoples' sins? Whether in the Temple or today in the Church, the priests aren't just up their singing pretty songs.  Priesthood is a service, a duty, an obligation, and honestly, it seems women already have enough obligations as it is.  If men were to give up the priesthood, we'd devolve to the laziest of species ;)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: HouseOfGod on July 03, 2012, 10:38:46 PM
Wow, it seems like there's a lot of anger and "you're wrong"s here. :P

I'm a 15 year old cradle EO girl. I've occasionally wished I could serve in the altar like the boys may, but I eventually figured that was just envy and it needed to stop. In my church, 4th and 5th graders are allowed to be myrrh-bearers in the Holy Friday service. I was lucky enough to be able to participate from grades 3-5. I used to say that if I were a boy, I'd never have to question my career choice, because I would be a priest. Even as I said this, I never really questioned the doctrine that girls are not allowed to become priests or altar servers. It's complicated, and my sister and I have actually had casual debates about it, but I just feel within me that it isn't how it should be. It's difficult for me to even explain. I'm confident that the Lord knows my path, and I'm excited to see where I'm led.
At my church, at the 40-Day Blessing, boys are brought into the altar and held to the Cross, while girls are simply brought up on the Solea, right by the Royal Doors. Girls are never allowed to enter the altar. I remember debates about it being unfair, but I felt priviledged to enter the debate as a girl and say that I felt our traditions were correct.
My jurisdiction is the GOAA, and I've never heard of anything like this. From everything I read on the Archdiocese webpage and all the information I get from my parish, nothing has changed. As for vestments of any kind--I remember in 5th grade my Sunday School teacher was granted permission to use a set of my priest's vestments and show them in class. She allowed one student to wear some of them (I'm not sure if this was even allowed, so please don't attack me :)), but the student had to be a boy. Since none of us were priests, I wasn't sure why it mattered. I'd second what Asteriktos said: we're not sure about the actual circumstances.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Orthodox11 on July 03, 2012, 10:41:32 PM
Why can't human beings who are female enter the altar?  Are they considered unclean?  Unworthy of participating in the divine services offered to God?

A lay person may enter the altar with a blessing when there is a need (i.e. when there is no properly ordained member of the minor orders to do the job). Common practice, though much abused and misunderstood, is for lay men to be preferred over lay women since they may be appointed to one of the minor orders in future, while a woman may not. However, where there is a need, such as in convents, women may enter the altar.

If your question is why women can't be ordained to holy orders (the female subdeaconate was not a liturgical role), this has to do with revelation, prophecy and iconography in the Liturgy, which make use of the maleness of Christ the Bridegroom vs. the female nature of the Church.

But again, entering the altar is a question of priesthood vs. laity, not male vs. female. A layman has no more right to enter the altar than a laywoman.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Ionnis on July 03, 2012, 10:43:29 PM
Why can't human beings who are female enter the altar?  Are they considered unclean?  Unworthy of participating in the divine services offered to God?


If your question is why women can't be ordained to holy orders...

Nope, not my question, but the rest of your post answered my question.  Thank you.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Paisius on July 03, 2012, 10:49:34 PM
Good grief guys you need to settle down. This is one of the parishes I regularly attend and the girls do not enter the altar. They sit in the front pew with lamps, meet the procession during the Great Entrance and then go right back over and sit down.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: LBK on July 03, 2012, 10:51:24 PM
Why can't human beings who are female enter the altar?  Are they considered unclean?  Unworthy of participating in the divine services offered to God?

A lay person may enter the altar with a blessing when there is a need (i.e. when there is no properly ordained member of the minor orders to do the job). Common practice, though much abused and misunderstood, is for lay men to be preferred over lay women since they may be appointed to one of the minor orders in future, while a woman may not. However, where there is a need, such as in convents, women may enter the altar.

If your question is why women can't be ordained to holy orders (the female subdeaconate was not a liturgical role), this has to do with revelation, prophecy and iconography in the Liturgy, which make use of the maleness of Christ the Bridegroom vs. the female nature of the Church.

But again, entering the altar is a question of priesthood vs. laity, not male vs. female. A layman has no more right to enter the altar than a laywoman.

/\ This.

Too many folks think that it's simply a male/female thing. It is not, as we can see from the monastic allowing of abbesses and older nuns to serve in the altar. And, in my neck of the woods, a woman was given a blessing to paint the icons on the walls of the apse of the altar, as she had a particular talent for painting on curved surfaces. The jurisdiction she belonged to, and that of the parish whose church she painted, were, and are, not known for being liberal.

OTOH, the idea of altargirls just turns my stomach, just as the idea of female priests does.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: LBK on July 03, 2012, 10:53:28 PM
Good grief guys you need to settle down. This is one of the parishes I regularly attend and the girls do not enter the altar. They sit in the front pew with lamps, meet the procession during the Great Entrance and then go right back over and sit down.

Nice to know that the girls don't enter the inner sanctum. But there's still the problem of them wearing stikharia.  :P
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: augustin717 on July 03, 2012, 10:54:06 PM
Quote
OTOH, the idea of altargirls just turns my stomach, just as the idea of female priests does.
It doesn't turn mine.But " de gustibus..."
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: NicholasMyra on July 03, 2012, 10:59:12 PM
the idea of altargirls just turns my stomach
To quote Futurama: "I think that steamed carrot was a little too spicy for me."
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: HabteSelassie on July 03, 2012, 10:59:45 PM
greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Good grief guys you need to settle down. This is one of the parishes I regularly attend and the girls do not enter the altar. They sit in the front pew with lamps, meet the procession during the Great Entrance and then go right back over and sit down.
thanks for the clarification, I figured as much was the case :)

 I could only imagine it isn't happening and I am giving them the benefit of the doubt on this one. 



stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Punch on July 03, 2012, 11:27:30 PM
I'm so glad we have posters on OC.net who are willing to correct the errors of bishops who do things like permit altar girls, most likely with the knowledge of other bishops in their synods, when the synod is too stupid or heretical to be bothered with the correction.

Praise God from the heavens, praise him for OC.net where we are all able to be properly taught the truth, where our bishops have failed.

Yes, praise him.  If it were not for the laity and the monks, the Bishops would have led us into apostasy centuries ago.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: FormerReformer on July 03, 2012, 11:41:28 PM
I'm so glad we have posters on OC.net who are willing to correct the errors of bishops who do things like permit altar girls, most likely with the knowledge of other bishops in their synods, when the synod is too stupid or heretical to be bothered with the correction.

Praise God from the heavens, praise him for OC.net where we are all able to be properly taught the truth, where our bishops have failed.

Yes, praise him.  If it were not for the laity and the monks, the Bishops would have led us into apostasy centuries ago.

Shhhh! Careful, Punch- you might scare someone off with your wild ideas that the laity is actually supposed to be vigilant. Why, if we didn't join Orthodoxy in order to be mindless drones searching high and low for "spiritual fathers" and being "obedient to our elders", why did we join (cradles excepted)? Why would the Font of Truth happen to need us lowly peons to actually do anything?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Severian on July 03, 2012, 11:45:47 PM
--Subscribed--
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 04, 2012, 12:02:12 AM
Devin, what dogmatic foundation do you have for opposing altar girls?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: rakovsky on July 04, 2012, 12:07:13 AM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Why can't human beings who are female enter the altar?  Are they considered unclean?  Unworthy of participating in the divine services offered to God?

In the Jewish traditions from the Old Testament Temple rituals, it was actually a bit of the opposite. Women, because they can give birth to new life, are actually considered a bit holier than men.  What men did as priests was atonement, repentance, redemption for sins and shortcomings.   This is what I think Paul meant when he said, "Women shall be saved through childbearing" in 1 Timothy 2:15.  The Jewish priests weren't punishing women by not allowing them in the Temple during menstruation, or by enforcing gendered segregation in Courts and the Temple services, these were there if anything in benefit to the women.  After all, separation is not always a punishment is it? The altar itself is sacred, separate, distinctive, is this a punishment for the altar? Further, if anything, NOBODY serves the day to day functions of the world more than women, so considering that the altar is service, isn't it a benefit of women to be removed from this service? After all, women have to do just about EVERY thing else in the world, often unappreciated and out of obligation, so why should they necessarily also want the burden of ministry and responsibility for other peoples' sins? Whether in the Temple or today in the Church, the priests aren't just up their singing pretty songs.  Priesthood is a service, a duty, an obligation, and honestly, it seems women already have enough obligations as it is.  If men were to give up the priesthood, we'd devolve to the laziest of species ;)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
I met an Orthodox Rabbinical girl once who claimed to me Judaism puts women above men in terms of holiness, and that it why men cover their heads in synagogues and "serve" as priests, while women do not perform "service".
Later a Jewish friend told me this view about men being below women, as in holiness, isn't the case in Judaism.
Also I later found out there is a common Judaic or Rabbinical men's prayer thanking God for making the person a man.

I admit you made an interesting quote by St Paul about women being saved by childbearing, and I am confused about this- I thought salvation according to the Letters of Paul and James was by faith(Paul), works (ie works+faith James), following the Law(nonChristian Jews), and/or following one's conscience (non-Jewish nonChristian gentiles).

But in any case, didn't St Paul say he didn't agree with giving women authority over men? And as for holiness, while the Theotokos was certainly very holy and a woman, wasn't Christ no less holy and a man?

So in conclusion I would say that at the least I am very doubtful of claims that would say women as a general category are considered more holy than men in either Judaism or Christianity.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: NicholasMyra on July 04, 2012, 12:07:45 AM
Devin, what dogmatic foundation do you have for opposing altar girls?

It's against tradition, because it happened once, and then didn't happen for X period of time.

Anything we don't like that didn't happen for X period of time is heretical. Anything we do like that didn't happen for X period of time was a true practice tragically lost during the western captivity.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: William on July 04, 2012, 12:13:37 AM
Devin, what dogmatic foundation do you have for opposing altar girls?

It's against tradition, because it happened once, and then didn't happen for X period of time.

Anything we don't like that didn't happen for X period of time is heretical. Anything we do like that didn't happen for X period of time was a true practice tragically lost during the western captivity.

Considering that actual theological arguments have been made in this thread, I'm calling strawman.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 04, 2012, 12:13:49 AM
Why can't human beings who are female enter the altar?  Are they considered unclean?  Unworthy of participating in the divine services offered to God?

Well, that's the funny thing about all this.  It is universally accepted, as far as I am aware, that women monastics may enter the altar (or, rather, specific female monks who receive a special blessing may enter the altar) for such things as cleaning.  Clearly, there is not some deep theological reason that forbids women from entering the area of the altar.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: NicholasMyra on July 04, 2012, 12:28:02 AM

Well, that's the funny thing about all this.  It is universally accepted, as far as I am aware, that women monastics may enter the altar (or, rather, specific female monks who receive a special blessing may enter the altar) for such things as cleaning.  Clearly, there is not some deep theological reason that forbids women from entering the area of the altar.
Here's where we get into the pseudo-dionysian heirarchical system. That's complicated business.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 04, 2012, 01:47:57 AM
Devin, what dogmatic foundation do you have for opposing altar girls?

It's against tradition, because it happened once, and then didn't happen for X period of time.

Anything we don't like that didn't happen for X period of time is heretical. Anything we do like that didn't happen for X period of time was a true practice tragically lost during the western captivity.

Considering that actual theological arguments have been made in this thread, I'm calling strawman.
Theological arguments? I've not seen any.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: William on July 04, 2012, 02:34:18 AM
Devin, what dogmatic foundation do you have for opposing altar girls?

It's against tradition, because it happened once, and then didn't happen for X period of time.

Anything we don't like that didn't happen for X period of time is heretical. Anything we do like that didn't happen for X period of time was a true practice tragically lost during the western captivity.

Considering that actual theological arguments have been made in this thread, I'm calling strawman.
Theological arguments? I've not seen any.
Please look at Reply #36.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 04, 2012, 02:41:17 AM
Devin, what dogmatic foundation do you have for opposing altar girls?

It's against tradition, because it happened once, and then didn't happen for X period of time.

Anything we don't like that didn't happen for X period of time is heretical. Anything we do like that didn't happen for X period of time was a true practice tragically lost during the western captivity.

Considering that actual theological arguments have been made in this thread, I'm calling strawman.
Theological arguments? I've not seen any.
Please look at Reply #36.
1. That was an argument for why only clergy have the freedom to enter the sanctuary, as opposed to laity.
2. That wasn't a theological argument.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: William on July 04, 2012, 02:45:19 AM
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_WAi2txkagVM/Sas_KvPyt5I/AAAAAAAAE5I/RYIIB1QV0C0/s400/splitting_hairs.jpg)
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Gorazd on July 04, 2012, 02:47:04 AM
In Antiochian parishes in Germany, girls do serve in the altar. Adult women read the apostle.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 04, 2012, 03:04:19 AM
Devin, what dogmatic foundation do you have for opposing altar girls?

Women can't enter the altar for one. You seem to read too much from the "St Nina's website". Our church will never allow altar girls or female priests. If it ever does, then we will have to admit that it isn't the church and is no better than the fallen Anglican Church.

I dot see why I have to make a theological argument with tradition and canons on my side. You have no right to question the Church on this matter. Altar Girls aren't allowed and neither are female priests. The only clerical office permitted to women is deaconess, and deaconness was not the same as a deacon and did not serve in the same capacity, it is doubtful they even were allowed to enter the sanctuary near the altar.

There is absolutely no reason for these girls to be wearing sticharion, no matter their role in the service. Since its a Greek parish, they could easily come up with something different for them to wear. Sticharion is reserved for clergy and those blessed to serve at the altar.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Alpo on July 04, 2012, 03:29:04 AM
I know one Finnish parish where a priest used to allow females serving in the altar and wearing stikharia. His bishop put an end to that.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 04, 2012, 03:41:14 AM
Devin, what dogmatic foundation do you have for opposing altar girls?

Women can't enter the altar for one. You seem to read too much from the "St Nina's website".
I've never heard of St. Nina's website. All I did was ask a simple question. You don't need to read into it any idea that I disagree with you. I simply haven't thought about this issue all that much, and I would like to hear from you articulate theological reasons why I should share your opinion on altar girls.

Our church will never allow altar girls or female priests. If it ever does, then we will have to admit that it isn't the church and is no better than the fallen Anglican Church.
Comparison against an outside body is not an argument.

I dot see why I have to make a theological argument with tradition and canons on my side.
What traditions? What canons? Please cite specific examples.

You have no right to question the Church on this matter.
I'm not questioning the Church on this matter. I'm questioning you.

Altar Girls aren't allowed and neither are female priests. The only clerical office permitted to women is deaconess, and deaconness was not the same as a deacon and did not serve in the same capacity, it is doubtful they even were allowed to enter the sanctuary near the altar.
Doubtful? What evidence can you cite to support that opinion?

There is absolutely no reason for these girls to be wearing sticharion, no matter their role in the service. Since its a Greek parish, they could easily come up with something different for them to wear. Sticharion is reserved for clergy and those blessed to serve at the altar.
So, no theological arguments to support your position... "Because I say so" doesn't count. Neither does "that's the way we've always done it."
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: mike on July 04, 2012, 04:52:54 AM
Our church will never allow altar girls or female priests.

It happens.

Quote
If it ever does, then we will have to admit that it isn't the church and is no better than the fallen Anglican Church.

What will you do now?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Dimitrios-Georgios on July 04, 2012, 06:40:33 AM
A friend of mine told me that at her baptism in Germany by a Greek Orthodox priest, she was taken in the altar, because the priest thought that it wouldn't matter. That was 22 years ago. Just mentioning it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Gorazd on July 04, 2012, 07:26:32 AM
Just wondering for those of you who are strictly opposed to women being in the altar:
In your parish, who does the cleaning in the altar?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 04, 2012, 07:28:40 AM
Our church will never allow altar girls or female priests.

It happens.

Quote
If it ever does, then we will have to admit that it isn't the church and is no better than the fallen Anglican Church.

What will you do now?

Just because misinformed, renegade Priests allow altar girls doesn't mean anything and we've never allowed female Priests and never will.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: mike on July 04, 2012, 07:35:52 AM
"Just because grass is green doesn't mean grass is green"

???
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 04, 2012, 07:44:05 AM
"Just because grass is green doesn't mean grass is green"

???

Priest doing something doesn't mean it's the Church. The disgusting clergy who signed at the Council of Florence committed apostasy and were exiled by the people, the church didn't reunite with Rome, they just committed apostasy. (and honestly the people should have kicked them out and retaken Hagia Sophia by force)

Just because a Priest is an idiot doesn't mean the Church is allowing altar girls.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: LBK on July 04, 2012, 07:45:13 AM
Just wondering for those of you who are strictly opposed to women being in the altar:
In your parish, who does the cleaning in the altar?

Men and altarboys. In every parish I have been associated with, spanning several jurisdictions.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: podkarpatska on July 04, 2012, 09:54:12 AM
We are indeed blessed to live in an era where those harboring anti-clerical and anti-hierarchical beliefs have a public forum to express their outrage and indignation about this and that. Of course - it helps to be anonymous.

If you have a problem with your priest or bishop, have the guts to take it up at a parish meeting or when your bishop visits. Otherwise your opinions have no weight. If you don't like clergy there are plenty of denominations who don't have them.

BTW, we don't have altar girls, never have, never will but we do try to respect our clergy.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Punch on July 04, 2012, 10:26:17 AM
We are indeed blessed to live in an era where those harboring anti-clerical and anti-hierarchical beliefs have a public forum to express their outrage and indignation about this and that. Of course - it helps to be anonymous.

If you have a problem with your priest or bishop, have the guts to take it up at a parish meeting or when your bishop visits. Otherwise your opinions have no weight. If you don't like clergy there are plenty of denominations who don't have them.

BTW, we don't have altar girls, never have, never will but we do try to respect our clergy.


The Church has always needed its checks and balances.  The majority of heresies and apostasies come from the ranks of the clergy.  However, those heresies are only allowed to fester where there is a dead and ignorant laity and a lack of monastic vigilance.  Perhaps I understand this because I came from a church who's clergy led it down the rosy path to heresy.  I put my trust in them and was deceived for many years.  I don't intend to have that happen again.  And don't give me any crap about your "Orthodox" Bishops.  The Pope was once Orthodox. 

BTW - there are enough people on this list that know who I am.  Just because you don't does not make me anonymous.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: ialmisry on July 04, 2012, 10:28:01 AM
Wow!  This many posts in just less than a day.  Seems a hot topic.

Put me down in the category "doesn't think that because you have a penis you can go in the altar area."
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 04, 2012, 11:02:50 AM
We are indeed blessed to live in an era where those harboring anti-clerical and anti-hierarchical beliefs have a public forum to express their outrage and indignation about this and that. Of course - it helps to be anonymous.

If you have a problem with your priest or bishop, have the guts to take it up at a parish meeting or when your bishop visits. Otherwise your opinions have no weight. If you don't like clergy there are plenty of denominations who don't have them.

BTW, we don't have altar girls, never have, never will but we do try to respect our clergy.


I don't have to worry about my Bishop, he's already expressed his displeasure about letting girls/women hold the cloth at communion.

I think he's also done the same about allowing them to read the epistle (unless it is a mission parish which has no one else to do it).

Oh and btw, the women at my current parish agree with our bishop.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Marc1152 on July 04, 2012, 11:18:01 AM
What are we to think about something like this?

http://stjohnthedivinejax.org/parish-information/youth-portal/acolyte-program

I don't want to immediately jump to conclusions, but this GOA parish seems to actually be allowing altar girls, which is not allowed in our church. I've seen wonderful "handmaiden" or "myrrh-bearer" programs where girls learn to take care of vestments, prosphora and other things, but I've never seen an example of girls actually being allowed to wear sticharion and serve in the altar as altar girls?

Is this a case of the Priest not knowing that this isn't allowed, or willing disobedience? Or is it even (God forbid) a Bishop allowing this?

I just sent them this email. Lets see if he writes back:

Your policy of allowing girls to be altar servers is being discussed on OthodoxChristianity.net. A link to your Parish web site has been posted there.

Would you mind explaining your thinking on this? As you know, only boys are allowed to be altar servers in the Orthodox Church except for the occasional use on Nuns under specific circumstances.
We are also curious if your Bishop has blessed this.

Thank you for your time and patience.

In Christ 



Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Orthodox11 on July 04, 2012, 11:23:41 AM
I just sent them this email. Lets see if he writes back:

Your policy of allowing girls to be altar servers is being discussed on OthodoxChristianity.net. A link to your Parish web site has been posted there.

Would you mind explaining your thinking on this? As you know, only boys are allowed to be altar servers in the Orthodox Church except for the occasional use on Nuns under specific circumstances.
We are also curious if your Bishop has blessed this.

Thank you for your time and patience.

In Christ 

Why? Paisius already said he attends this church and the girls don't enter the altar at all (reply #38).
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Orest on July 04, 2012, 11:31:07 AM
In Antiochian parishes in Germany, girls do serve in the altar. Adult women read the apostle.
There is nothing wrong with adult women reading the Epistles.

Back to the church web site: I don't think 5 year old boys should be altar servers do you?  Way too young.
Let's not speculate and find out from the church what these children actually do during the liturgies.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Orthodox11 on July 04, 2012, 11:35:07 AM
There is nothing wrong with adult women reading the Epistles.

Reading the Epistle during the Liturgy should be reserved for tonsured readers. Women should not be reading the Epistle unless there is no one else to do it, but nor should any layperson. Again, this is a matter of priesthood vs. laity, not male vs. female.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Marc1152 on July 04, 2012, 11:40:30 AM
I just sent them this email. Lets see if he writes back:

Your policy of allowing girls to be altar servers is being discussed on OthodoxChristianity.net. A link to your Parish web site has been posted there.

Would you mind explaining your thinking on this? As you know, only boys are allowed to be altar servers in the Orthodox Church except for the occasional use on Nuns under specific circumstances.
We are also curious if your Bishop has blessed this.

Thank you for your time and patience.

In Christ 

Why? Paisius already said he attends this church and the girls don't enter the altar at all (reply #38).

okay.. Missed that post. So they are they really alter servers? It still may be interesting to see what he says about it

Still, it seems inappropriate even to that extent, especially since they vest. Isnt an alter server considered an "Acolyte"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acolyte
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Marc1152 on July 04, 2012, 11:51:41 AM
There is nothing wrong with adult women reading the Epistles.

Reading the Epistle during the Liturgy should be reserved for tonsured readers. Women should not be reading the Epistle unless there is no one else to do it, but nor should any layperson. Again, this is a matter of priesthood vs. laity, not male vs. female.

We are a Rocor mission so women occasionally read the epistle. One week we were very short handed and I suggested a Women hold one end of the cloth, That was an absolute no go.

However, our next Warden (parish President) will likely be a Woman. I can tell you honestly as the current Warden that there are several women in our parish that run the place. They think through every detail and keep the doors open. If one or two leave, we would be in deep trouble. I'm the one who cleans the Church every week and mops the floor.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 04, 2012, 11:56:35 AM
I just sent them this email. Lets see if he writes back:

Your policy of allowing girls to be altar servers is being discussed on OthodoxChristianity.net. A link to your Parish web site has been posted there.

Would you mind explaining your thinking on this? As you know, only boys are allowed to be altar servers in the Orthodox Church except for the occasional use on Nuns under specific circumstances.
We are also curious if your Bishop has blessed this.

Thank you for your time and patience.

In Christ 

Why? Paisius already said he attends this church and the girls don't enter the altar at all (reply #38).

okay.. Missed that post. So they are they really alter servers? It still may be interesting to see what he says about it

Still, it seems inappropriate even to that extent, especially since they vest. Isnt an alter server considered an "Acolyte"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acolyte

Even if they aren't altar girls, they shouldn't be wearing sticharion. There are many other things they could wear, and since it's a Greek Parish, I'm sure they could acquire some traditional Greek outfits often seen at Greek festivals. If they want the girls to look different, they could use something other than sticharion.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: augustin717 on July 04, 2012, 11:58:36 AM
There is nothing wrong with adult women reading the Epistles.

Reading the Epistle during the Liturgy should be reserved for tonsured readers. Women should not be reading the Epistle unless there is no one else to do it, but nor should any layperson. Again, this is a matter of priesthood vs. laity, not male vs. female.
Forgive me if I don't buy into "this is a matter of priesthood vs. laity, not male vs. female". It's like the confederate nutjobs saying "it was a matter of state rights vs federal gov't, not about slavery". No, ultimately it is exactly a matter of "male vs female".
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: augustin717 on July 04, 2012, 12:04:38 PM
But women were allowed to read the epistle. It even happened on occasion, in backwards Romanian villages in the '20's or 30's. Know it from grandma.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 04, 2012, 12:18:47 PM
I'm so glad we have posters on OC.net who are willing to correct the errors of bishops who do things like permit altar girls, most likely with the knowledge of other bishops in their synods, when the synod is too stupid or heretical to be bothered with the correction.

Praise God from the heavens, praise him for OC.net where we are all able to be properly taught the truth, where our bishops have failed.

Yes, praise him.  If it were not for the laity and the monks, the Bishops would have led us into apostasy centuries ago.

And I'm sure the laity and monks have generally been completely anonymous speaking to other anonymous laymen and never actually addressing a bishop, when they were keeping the flame of Orthodoxy alive.  The fact is, if a bishop chooses to permit altar girls, where is the canon explicitly prohibiting him from doing so?  If there isn't one, then why should he be unable to?  The Synod in Trullo even adopted a canon from the Council of Carthage, which says that the baptism by heretics is not legitimate, and requires an Orthodox baptism of those being received from heretical groups.  Yet, no one claims that the bishops are committing heresy when they bring people in via chrismation, no one says it's evil, no one says the bishops are trying to make Orthodoxy like the Anglicans, well, no one in the Church anyways.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 04, 2012, 12:18:47 PM
There is nothing wrong with adult women reading the Epistles.

Reading the Epistle during the Liturgy should be reserved for tonsured readers. Women should not be reading the Epistle unless there is no one else to do it, but nor should any layperson. Again, this is a matter of priesthood vs. laity, not male vs. female.

And entrance to the altar should be reserved for subdeacons and up.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Orthodox11 on July 04, 2012, 12:23:42 PM
And entrance to the altar should be reserved for subdeacons and up.

I'd say readers and up. But yes, laypeople should not be allowed to enter the altar without good reason.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 04, 2012, 12:25:29 PM
Devin, what dogmatic foundation do you have for opposing altar girls?

Women can't enter the altar for one. You seem to read too much from the "St Nina's website".
I've never heard of St. Nina's website. All I did was ask a simple question. You don't need to read into it any idea that I disagree with you. I simply haven't thought about this issue all that much, and I would like to hear from you articulate theological reasons why I should share your opinion on altar girls.

Our church will never allow altar girls or female priests. If it ever does, then we will have to admit that it isn't the church and is no better than the fallen Anglican Church.
Comparison against an outside body is not an argument.

I dot see why I have to make a theological argument with tradition and canons on my side.
What traditions? What canons? Please cite specific examples.

You have no right to question the Church on this matter.
I'm not questioning the Church on this matter. I'm questioning you.

Altar Girls aren't allowed and neither are female priests. The only clerical office permitted to women is deaconess, and deaconness was not the same as a deacon and did not serve in the same capacity, it is doubtful they even were allowed to enter the sanctuary near the altar.
Doubtful? What evidence can you cite to support that opinion?

There is absolutely no reason for these girls to be wearing sticharion, no matter their role in the service. Since its a Greek parish, they could easily come up with something different for them to wear. Sticharion is reserved for clergy and those blessed to serve at the altar.
So, no theological arguments to support your position... "Because I say so" doesn't count. Neither does "that's the way we've always done it."
Ignoring my questions, Devin?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: biro on July 04, 2012, 12:28:22 PM
There is nothing wrong with adult women reading the Epistles.

Reading the Epistle during the Liturgy should be reserved for tonsured readers. Women should not be reading the Epistle unless there is no one else to do it, but nor should any layperson. Again, this is a matter of priesthood vs. laity, not male vs. female.
Forgive me if I don't buy into "this is a matter of priesthood vs. laity, not male vs. female". It's like the confederate nutjobs saying "it was a matter of state rights vs federal gov't, not about slavery". No, ultimately it is exactly a matter of "male vs female".

Ta-daa!  :)
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 04, 2012, 12:30:44 PM
We are indeed blessed to live in an era where those harboring anti-clerical and anti-hierarchical beliefs have a public forum to express their outrage and indignation about this and that. Of course - it helps to be anonymous.

If you have a problem with your priest or bishop, have the guts to take it up at a parish meeting or when your bishop visits. Otherwise your opinions have no weight. If you don't like clergy there are plenty of denominations who don't have them.

BTW, we don't have altar girls, never have, never will but we do try to respect our clergy.


I don't have to worry about my Bishop, he's already expressed his displeasure about letting girls/women hold the cloth at communion.
On what theological grounds does he oppose this practice?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 04, 2012, 12:41:43 PM
And entrance to the altar should be reserved for subdeacons and up.

I'd say readers and up. But yes, laypeople should not be allowed to enter the altar without good reason.

Note Fr. George's post here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,16910.msg243605.html#msg243605 especially the last part of his post.

For quite some time, one had to be at least a subdeacon to approach the altar (or, as noted, the Emperor, but we stopped having them some time ago).  Readers were not permitted at the altar, because their duties did not require it.

My point is not that it is horrible for readers to be permitted to enter the area of the altar, but rather that the Church is a living organism, and things change.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: NicholasMyra on July 04, 2012, 01:07:01 PM
...change...

(http://www.shadowlocked.com/images/stories/features/invasion/Sutherland_scream_Invasion_Of_The_Body_Snatchers_Kaufman_1978.jpg)
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: HabteSelassie on July 04, 2012, 01:14:44 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Just wondering for those of you who are strictly opposed to women being in the altar:
In your parish, who does the cleaning in the altar?

Men silly ;)

By the way, why should women necessarily be involved with cleaning in the first place? At our parish, our custodian is also a man, his name is Gus and he is very good to us ;)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Orthodox11 on July 04, 2012, 02:37:56 PM
Note Fr. George's post here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,16910.msg243605.html#msg243605 especially the last part of his post.

Anyone (male or female) who is given a blessing to enter the Holy of Holies (altar area) can do so, but this blessing is given for a specific purpose.

Quote
Canon LXIX - Council of Trullo (Quintisext)

It is not permitted to a layman to enter the sanctuary (Holy Altar, Gk.), though, in accordance with a certain ancient tradition, the imperial power and authority is by no means prohibited from this when he wishes to offer his gifts to the Creator.

This is what I was saying. Laymen are prohibited from entering the altar, when a blessing is given for a layperson to enter this extends also to women.

Quote
For quite some time, one had to be at least a subdeacon to approach the altar (or, as noted, the Emperor, but we stopped having them some time ago).  Readers were not permitted at the altar, because their duties did not require it.

I may have missed it, but where does it specifically mention subdeacons? When we're talking about readers serving in the altar, we are talking about that office as it came to incorporate the now defunct office of 'taper-bearer'. While the duties of a reader do not require entry to the altar, it was always my impression that the office of taper-bearer did.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: yeshuaisiam on July 04, 2012, 02:49:37 PM
Just wondering for those of you who are strictly opposed to women being in the altar:
In your parish, who does the cleaning in the altar?

In several churches that I attended, the men did it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: augustin717 on July 04, 2012, 02:51:14 PM
I know that churches here in the US  are kinda infested with minor orders, cassocks , sticharia, oraria etc- but I wonder whether apart from Russia maybe, has there always been a tradition, in other churches of ordaining men to minor orders without the said men being on track for priesthood?
I know that it hasn't been in my church.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: yeshuaisiam on July 04, 2012, 02:56:31 PM
Just wondering for those of you who are strictly opposed to women being in the altar:
In your parish, who does the cleaning in the altar?

Men and altarboys. In every parish I have been associated with, spanning several jurisdictions.

Same here.   Men & Altar boys.   Antiochian, Greek, Russian, ROCOR, OCA.  On Mt. Athos, women are generally not even allowed on the entire island and the men did everything there.   They even heavily limit female animals / livestock on Athos.   In Jerusalem often the women were even kept at the back of the EO churches.     Oh yes, ^^in Romania too, men only.

I don't know if it is a jurisdictional difference, or if there is a complete error by bishops, or some tradition somewhere in various jurisdictions as to why it happens.   But where I have seen, it was 100% males only.   This was cleaning, painting, serving, maintaining.    Ordained only through the Royal Doors (and newly baptized infant males).  Altar boys through side/back doors/areas.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: yeshuaisiam on July 04, 2012, 02:57:46 PM
I know that churches here in the US  are kinda infested with minor orders, cassocks , sticharia, oraria etc- but I wonder whether apart from Russia maybe, has there always been a tradition, in other churches of ordaining men to minor orders without the said men being on track for priesthood?
I know that it hasn't been in my church.

At our church some were "more inclined" to become priests.  Others were sub deacons/readers that "perhaps" could be, but they don't know yet etc.   Kind of like a journey.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Orthodox11 on July 04, 2012, 03:19:31 PM
I know that churches here in the US  are kinda infested with minor orders, cassocks , sticharia, oraria etc- but I wonder whether apart from Russia maybe, has there always been a tradition, in other churches of ordaining men to minor orders without the said men being on track for priesthood?
I know that it hasn't been in my church.

Since the norm has been to allow laypeople to perform the roles of the minor offices, many of those who are ordained to minor orders are probably people considering the priesthood. It varies depending on jurisdiction though. In Greek churches being tonsured a reader basically just means you're a young man who attends church regularly - i.e. nothing to do with being on track for the priesthood.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 04, 2012, 03:34:11 PM
Note Fr. George's post here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,16910.msg243605.html#msg243605 especially the last part of his post.

Anyone (male or female) who is given a blessing to enter the Holy of Holies (altar area) can do so, but this blessing is given for a specific purpose.

Quote
Canon LXIX - Council of Trullo (Quintisext)

It is not permitted to a layman to enter the sanctuary (Holy Altar, Gk.), though, in accordance with a certain ancient tradition, the imperial power and authority is by no means prohibited from this when he wishes to offer his gifts to the Creator.

This is what I was saying. Laymen are prohibited from entering the altar, when a blessing is given for a layperson to enter this extends also to women.

Quote
For quite some time, one had to be at least a subdeacon to approach the altar (or, as noted, the Emperor, but we stopped having them some time ago).  Readers were not permitted at the altar, because their duties did not require it.

I may have missed it, but where does it specifically mention subdeacons? When we're talking about readers serving in the altar, we are talking about that office as it came to incorporate the now defunct office of 'taper-bearer'. While the duties of a reader do not require entry to the altar, it was always my impression that the office of taper-bearer did.


On the first point, I apologize, I must have misunderstood you or confused you with another poster.  As to the subdeacons, again I apologize.  I wasn't referencing Fr. George's post with regards to what I said about subdeacons.  Rather, everything I've read on the subject says that, historically, it was only subdeacons and up who were permitted into the altar, and that taper-bearers did not actually enter the altar in the course of their duties.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Rufus on July 04, 2012, 04:16:20 PM
I know that churches here in the US  are kinda infested with minor orders, cassocks , sticharia, oraria etc- but I wonder whether apart from Russia maybe, has there always been a tradition, in other churches of ordaining men to minor orders without the said men being on track for priesthood?
I know that it hasn't been in my church.

In my experience in the Greek tradition in America, minor orders are an afterthought. Subdeacons (and deacons) are inevitably planning to become priests. Chanters/readers, on the other hand, are usually not, but most of them are not tonsured. Acolytes are rarely tonsured.

Women readers are a minority, but are not uncommon.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: age234 on July 04, 2012, 04:36:46 PM
As I understand it, the participation of women in divine services as readers and even altar servers has been more common and acceptable than in some other churches. But like the minor orders, I don't see the point of reviving dead practices just because it's more PC in some way.

Why can't human beings who are female enter the altar?  Are they considered unclean?  Unworthy of participating in the divine services offered to God?

Is serving in the altar the only way a person can participate in the divine services?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: age234 on July 04, 2012, 04:44:22 PM
I know that churches here in the US  are kinda infested with minor orders, cassocks , sticharia, oraria etc- but I wonder whether apart from Russia maybe, has there always been a tradition, in other churches of ordaining men to minor orders without the said men being on track for priesthood?
I know that it hasn't been in my church.

In my experience in the Greek tradition in America, minor orders are an afterthought. Subdeacons (and deacons) are inevitably planning to become priests. Chanters/readers, on the other hand, are usually not, but most of them are not tonsured. Acolytes are rarely tonsured.

Women readers are a minority, but are not uncommon.

At the Greek churches in my area, they have multiple tonsured readers/canonarchs/chanters, who have no plans to move to higher orders. I think these practices probably vary widely from place to place.

In the Antiochian church the minor orders of reader and psaltis seem to be mostly official designations for roles people are already fulfilling. There are chanters who are ordained in recognition of their abilities though. And these practices are not limited to convert parishes. It seems more dependent on the parish's size and talent pool than anything else.

Subdeacons, though, are usually ordained if they are on the road to the deaconate. That seems to be considered the beginning of the road, while readers and psaltisi (?) are not necessarily expected to advance into the clerical ranks. For this reason, I'd have no problem with ordaining female readers and chanters if it was the church's tradition to do so.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Orthodox11 on July 04, 2012, 05:17:34 PM
Rather, everything I've read on the subject says that, historically, it was only subdeacons and up who were permitted into the altar, and that taper-bearers did not actually enter the altar in the course of their duties.

You might well be right. If you have any specific references, I'd be interested in reading them. With the exception of small missionary parishes and whatnot, most parishes have enough married men who'd be suitable for ordination to the subdiaconate, so I really don't see why the church couldn't restrict service in the altar to subdeacons if that is the correct practice.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: HabteSelassie on July 04, 2012, 05:18:02 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

As I understand it, the participation of women in divine services as readers and even altar servers has been more common and acceptable than in some other churches. But like the minor orders, I don't see the point of reviving dead practices just because it's more PC in some way.

Why can't human beings who are female enter the altar?  Are they considered unclean?  Unworthy of participating in the divine services offered to God?

Is serving in the altar the only way a person can participate in the divine services?

Such an excellent point that my blessed priest first explained to me when I was discussing the mistaken outside accusation so pseudo-misogyny.  Women's roles are as important as anyone else's, even if they don't necessarily wear the robes and lead the prayers or readings.  We sometimes glamorize or romanticise these roles of the clergy, but lets be honest, this is more popularism and emotionalism than it is theology or doctrine.  In the Church, during the Divine Liturgy, ALL roles, both those of celebrating clergy and those of the laity, are crucial, integral, fundamentally intertwined.  In the Ethiopian tradition, no Mass can even be spoken of without the attendance of some laypeople.  The response prayers of the people are no less important here than those of a celebrating Bishop!  We pray together. The Body of Christ is One body, and the head is not of any  more consequence than the toes, because what good is a head without an accompanying body?  The body works together for the same aim, Jesus Christ! When we receive Holy Communion, we are brought into an equality, priests and laity alike.  The Holy Communion completes the Divine Liturgy, and this communion (from the Greek "likened as becoming the same) we become the same, that is, the one Body of Christ.  The priests symbolize Christ who is the Head, but it is indeed one body, and the Head is not vaunted necessarily above the organic integrity of the unified body parts.  So when women have their respective positions, roles, and parts to play in the Church, they are no less dignified, no less important, no less Eternal than those of men, or those of the clergy, or any such people.

Men=Women

We diminish the Body of Christ when we arbitrarily impose nonsensical distinctions, as if the fancy of our fickle and fashionable whims was comparable to the Divine continuity of the Church!



stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 04, 2012, 05:29:18 PM
We are indeed blessed to live in an era where those harboring anti-clerical and anti-hierarchical beliefs have a public forum to express their outrage and indignation about this and that. Of course - it helps to be anonymous.

If you have a problem with your priest or bishop, have the guts to take it up at a parish meeting or when your bishop visits. Otherwise your opinions have no weight. If you don't like clergy there are plenty of denominations who don't have them.

BTW, we don't have altar girls, never have, never will but we do try to respect our clergy.


I don't have to worry about my Bishop, he's already expressed his displeasure about letting girls/women hold the cloth at communion.
On what theological grounds does he oppose this practice?

Don't ask me ask him, I wasn't at the clergy conference in May when he told them he wouldn't allow it anymore. The simple fact is that he is right, too many parishes in the diocese began becoming liberal and experimenting with the services before blessed +JOB arrived and he had to deal with those disgusting Priests and they were the ones that exhausted him beyond belief. Now our new Bishop is finishing the work of Archbishop Job and cleaning our diocese of the liberalizing and loosy-goosy nature of some of those parishes.

Besides, we don't need a dogmatic reason, we aren't Protestants or Papists, we don't belief in "Sola" anything, especially not dogma alone.

If you want to know then talk to my Bishop not me.

Like I said Peter, you have no right to question the Church on this issue, no altar girls in the last 2000 years and it will never happen ever. Same as no women priests ever... You have no right to question that unless you want to be a Protestant.

People who want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage  should get out of our church and go to the episcopal church and sink to oblivion with it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 04, 2012, 05:39:46 PM
We are indeed blessed to live in an era where those harboring anti-clerical and anti-hierarchical beliefs have a public forum to express their outrage and indignation about this and that. Of course - it helps to be anonymous.

If you have a problem with your priest or bishop, have the guts to take it up at a parish meeting or when your bishop visits. Otherwise your opinions have no weight. If you don't like clergy there are plenty of denominations who don't have them.

BTW, we don't have altar girls, never have, never will but we do try to respect our clergy.


I don't have to worry about my Bishop, he's already expressed his displeasure about letting girls/women hold the cloth at communion.
On what theological grounds does he oppose this practice?

Don't ask me ask him, I wasn't at the clergy conference in May when he told them he wouldn't allow it anymore. The simple fact is that he is right, too many parishes in the diocese began becoming liberal and experimenting with the services before blessed +JOB arrived and he had to deal with those disgusting Priests and they were the ones that exhausted him beyond belief. Now our new Bishop is finishing the work of Archbishop Job and cleaning our diocese of the liberalizing and loosy-goosy nature of some of those parishes.

Besides, we don't need a dogmatic reason, we aren't Protestants or Papists, we don't belief in "Sola" anything, especially not dogma alone.
Speak for yourself, Devin. "We've always done it this way" is not a reason for anything. Holy Tradition is itself based on theological revelations; therefore, everything in our Tradition has a theological reason. That's why I'm asking you for theological reasons for your opposition to altar girls.

If you want to know then talk to my Bishop not me.

Like I said Peter, you have no right to question the Church on this issue, no altar girls in the last 2000 years and it will never happen ever. Same as no women priests ever... You have no right to question that unless you want to be a Protestant.
But I have every right to question you, and so far you haven't done anything to cooperate. Again, I'm not questioning the Church; I'm questioning you.

People who want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage  should get out of our church and go to the episcopal church and sink to oblivion with it.
Amazing you would equate altar girls with woman priests, much less gay marriage, especially since no one else even mentioned gay marriage here.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: HabteSelassie on July 04, 2012, 05:41:37 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Don't ask me ask him, I wasn't at the clergy conference in May when he told them he wouldn't allow it anymore. The simple fact is that he is right, too many parishes in the diocese began becoming liberal and experimenting with the services before blessed +JOB arrived and he had to deal with those disgusting Priests and they were the ones that exhausted him beyond belief. Now our new Bishop is finishing the work of Archbishop Job and cleaning our diocese of the liberalizing and loosy-goosy nature of some of those parishes.

Besides, we don't need a dogmatic reason, we aren't Protestants or Papists, we don't belief in "Sola" anything, especially not dogma alone.

If you want to know then talk to my Bishop not me.

Like I said Peter, you have no right to question the Church on this issue, no altar girls in the last 2000 years and it will never happen ever. Same as no women priests ever... You have no right to question that unless you want to be a Protestant.

People who want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage  should get out of our church and go to the episcopal church and sink to oblivion with it.

Beautifully whiny strawmen there, but Peter never suggested any such thing.  He never proposed changing the Church, what he asked was that you support your claims with evidence and not sensationalism.  Perhaps what he was insinuating was that your attitude is in the wrong place, and that if you'd consult the fathers or canons maybe the Holy Spirit would cool down all that self-righteous indignation you have there, and realize that nobody here has been promoting changing the Church, and even the very parish you are griping against did no such thing either! In other words, I think he was hoping God would knock some of the wind out of your over-inflated sails ;)



stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Ionnis on July 04, 2012, 05:42:32 PM
We are indeed blessed to live in an era where those harboring anti-clerical and anti-hierarchical beliefs have a public forum to express their outrage and indignation about this and that. Of course - it helps to be anonymous.

If you have a problem with your priest or bishop, have the guts to take it up at a parish meeting or when your bishop visits. Otherwise your opinions have no weight. If you don't like clergy there are plenty of denominations who don't have them.

BTW, we don't have altar girls, never have, never will but we do try to respect our clergy.


I don't have to worry about my Bishop, he's already expressed his displeasure about letting girls/women hold the cloth at communion.
On what theological grounds does he oppose this practice?

Don't ask me ask him, I wasn't at the clergy conference in May when he told them he wouldn't allow it anymore. The simple fact is that he is right, too many parishes in the diocese began becoming liberal and experimenting with the services before blessed +JOB arrived and he had to deal with those disgusting Priests and they were the ones that exhausted him beyond belief. Now our new Bishop is finishing the work of Archbishop Job and cleaning our diocese of the liberalizing and loosy-goosy nature of some of those parishes.

Besides, we don't need a dogmatic reason, we aren't Protestants or Papists, we don't belief in "Sola" anything, especially not dogma alone.

If you want to know then talk to my Bishop not me.

Like I said Peter, you have no right to question the Church on this issue, no altar girls in the last 2000 years and it will never happen ever. Same as no women priests ever... You have no right to question that unless you want to be a Protestant.

People who want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage  should get out of our church and go to the episcopal church and sink to oblivion with it.

What are you running from?  And why are you using the Church as a cover?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Gorazd on July 04, 2012, 05:48:18 PM
For quite some time, one had to be at least a subdeacon to approach the altar (or, as noted, the Emperor, but we stopped having them some time ago).

The MP permits the Russian President to commune in the altar. President Putin has done this.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 04, 2012, 05:50:10 PM
We are indeed blessed to live in an era where those harboring anti-clerical and anti-hierarchical beliefs have a public forum to express their outrage and indignation about this and that. Of course - it helps to be anonymous.

If you have a problem with your priest or bishop, have the guts to take it up at a parish meeting or when your bishop visits. Otherwise your opinions have no weight. If you don't like clergy there are plenty of denominations who don't have them.

BTW, we don't have altar girls, never have, never will but we do try to respect our clergy.


I don't have to worry about my Bishop, he's already expressed his displeasure about letting girls/women hold the cloth at communion.
On what theological grounds does he oppose this practice?

Don't ask me ask him, I wasn't at the clergy conference in May when he told them he wouldn't allow it anymore. The simple fact is that he is right, too many parishes in the diocese began becoming liberal and experimenting with the services before blessed +JOB arrived and he had to deal with those disgusting Priests and they were the ones that exhausted him beyond belief. Now our new Bishop is finishing the work of Archbishop Job and cleaning our diocese of the liberalizing and loosy-goosy nature of some of those parishes.

Besides, we don't need a dogmatic reason, we aren't Protestants or Papists, we don't belief in "Sola" anything, especially not dogma alone.

If you want to know then talk to my Bishop not me.

Like I said Peter, you have no right to question the Church on this issue, no altar girls in the last 2000 years and it will never happen ever. Same as no women priests ever... You have no right to question that unless you want to be a Protestant.

People who want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage  should get out of our church and go to the episcopal church and sink to oblivion with it.

What are you running from?  And why are you using the Church as a cover?

I'm running from the disgusting modernist heterodox feminist practices of heretical Christians and heretical Christianity. Being the True Church, such heretics will smash against its solid foundations in vain and fail to change the Church every time. The Traditions of the Church are unchangable and without error. Feminism is disgusting and heretical like misogyny is disgusting and heretical.

Like I said, we will never have gay marriage, altar girls or female priests, those who want theses and want to change the church should simply get out and seek to change the heretical churches which actually entertain heresy and heterodoxy.

If you want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage, then get out of our church.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 04, 2012, 05:54:18 PM
For quite some time, one had to be at least a subdeacon to approach the altar (or, as noted, the Emperor, but we stopped having them some time ago).

The MP permits the Russian President to commune in the altar. President Putin has done this.

Hmm, that's interesting.  I'd not known about it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 04, 2012, 05:54:18 PM
We are indeed blessed to live in an era where those harboring anti-clerical and anti-hierarchical beliefs have a public forum to express their outrage and indignation about this and that. Of course - it helps to be anonymous.

If you have a problem with your priest or bishop, have the guts to take it up at a parish meeting or when your bishop visits. Otherwise your opinions have no weight. If you don't like clergy there are plenty of denominations who don't have them.

BTW, we don't have altar girls, never have, never will but we do try to respect our clergy.


I don't have to worry about my Bishop, he's already expressed his displeasure about letting girls/women hold the cloth at communion.
On what theological grounds does he oppose this practice?

Don't ask me ask him, I wasn't at the clergy conference in May when he told them he wouldn't allow it anymore. The simple fact is that he is right, too many parishes in the diocese began becoming liberal and experimenting with the services before blessed +JOB arrived and he had to deal with those disgusting Priests and they were the ones that exhausted him beyond belief. Now our new Bishop is finishing the work of Archbishop Job and cleaning our diocese of the liberalizing and loosy-goosy nature of some of those parishes.

Besides, we don't need a dogmatic reason, we aren't Protestants or Papists, we don't belief in "Sola" anything, especially not dogma alone.

If you want to know then talk to my Bishop not me.

Like I said Peter, you have no right to question the Church on this issue, no altar girls in the last 2000 years and it will never happen ever. Same as no women priests ever... You have no right to question that unless you want to be a Protestant.

People who want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage  should get out of our church and go to the episcopal church and sink to oblivion with it.

What are you running from?  And why are you using the Church as a cover?

I'm running from the disgusting modernist heterodox feminist practices of heretical Christians and heretical Christianity. Being the True Church, such heretics will smash against its solid foundations in vain and fail to change the Church every time. The Traditions of the Church are unchangable and without error. Feminism is disgusting and heretical like misogyny is disgusting and heretical.

Like I said, we will never have gay marriage, altar girls or female priests, those who want theses and want to change the church should simply get out and seek to change the heretical churches which actually entertain heresy and heterodoxy.

If you want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage, then get out of our church.

I sure am glad you were made a bishop or a priest, with the authority to identify and cast out those not welcome in the Body of Christ
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Gorazd on July 04, 2012, 06:01:26 PM
I am still waiting for canonical reasons against altar girls. So far, it seems to me that it is just as good or bad as unordained men in the altar.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 04, 2012, 06:02:05 PM
We are indeed blessed to live in an era where those harboring anti-clerical and anti-hierarchical beliefs have a public forum to express their outrage and indignation about this and that. Of course - it helps to be anonymous.

If you have a problem with your priest or bishop, have the guts to take it up at a parish meeting or when your bishop visits. Otherwise your opinions have no weight. If you don't like clergy there are plenty of denominations who don't have them.

BTW, we don't have altar girls, never have, never will but we do try to respect our clergy.


I don't have to worry about my Bishop, he's already expressed his displeasure about letting girls/women hold the cloth at communion.
On what theological grounds does he oppose this practice?

Don't ask me ask him, I wasn't at the clergy conference in May when he told them he wouldn't allow it anymore. The simple fact is that he is right, too many parishes in the diocese began becoming liberal and experimenting with the services before blessed +JOB arrived and he had to deal with those disgusting Priests and they were the ones that exhausted him beyond belief. Now our new Bishop is finishing the work of Archbishop Job and cleaning our diocese of the liberalizing and loosy-goosy nature of some of those parishes.

Besides, we don't need a dogmatic reason, we aren't Protestants or Papists, we don't belief in "Sola" anything, especially not dogma alone.

If you want to know then talk to my Bishop not me.

Like I said Peter, you have no right to question the Church on this issue, no altar girls in the last 2000 years and it will never happen ever. Same as no women priests ever... You have no right to question that unless you want to be a Protestant.

People who want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage  should get out of our church and go to the episcopal church and sink to oblivion with it.

What are you running from?  And why are you using the Church as a cover?

I'm running from the disgusting modernist heterodox feminist practices of heretical Christians and heretical Christianity. Being the True Church, such heretics will smash against its solid foundations in vain and fail to change the Church every time. The Traditions of the Church are unchangable and without error. Feminism is disgusting and heretical like misogyny is disgusting and heretical.
Just like your rabid anger will destroy you if you don't get a grip.

Like I said, we will never have gay marriage, altar girls or female priests, those who want theses and want to change the church should simply get out and seek to change the heretical churches which actually entertain heresy and heterodoxy.

If you want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage, then get out of our church.
Calm down, Devin. 8) No one here is arguing that the Church needs to change, so you have no need to get so damned defensive. You obviously have some very strong opinions on this matter, and I (along with maybe a few more of us) would like to know what theological foundation you have for your opinions. Is your faith so weak that you can't just answer a few questions without feeling that the Church is going to crumble around you if you do?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Orthodox11 on July 04, 2012, 06:43:39 PM
I am still waiting for canonical reasons against altar girls. So far, it seems to me that it is just as good or bad as unordained men in the altar.

Indeed. The canons oppose laypeople in the altar. That we are essentially rendering meaningless the minor orders by allowing laypeople to perform all of these tasks when there is absolutely no need is what deserves a 4 page thread. The only distinction between the two is that men can be ordained to the appropriate order at a later date. However, I find the fact that people have no problem with a layperson reading the Epistle or censing at the Great Entrance but get hysterical when they see a little girl carrying a candle a little off balance.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 04, 2012, 07:02:40 PM
We are indeed blessed to live in an era where those harboring anti-clerical and anti-hierarchical beliefs have a public forum to express their outrage and indignation about this and that. Of course - it helps to be anonymous.

If you have a problem with your priest or bishop, have the guts to take it up at a parish meeting or when your bishop visits. Otherwise your opinions have no weight. If you don't like clergy there are plenty of denominations who don't have them.

BTW, we don't have altar girls, never have, never will but we do try to respect our clergy.


I don't have to worry about my Bishop, he's already expressed his displeasure about letting girls/women hold the cloth at communion.
On what theological grounds does he oppose this practice?

Don't ask me ask him, I wasn't at the clergy conference in May when he told them he wouldn't allow it anymore. The simple fact is that he is right, too many parishes in the diocese began becoming liberal and experimenting with the services before blessed +JOB arrived and he had to deal with those disgusting Priests and they were the ones that exhausted him beyond belief. Now our new Bishop is finishing the work of Archbishop Job and cleaning our diocese of the liberalizing and loosy-goosy nature of some of those parishes.

Besides, we don't need a dogmatic reason, we aren't Protestants or Papists, we don't belief in "Sola" anything, especially not dogma alone.

If you want to know then talk to my Bishop not me.

Like I said Peter, you have no right to question the Church on this issue, no altar girls in the last 2000 years and it will never happen ever. Same as no women priests ever... You have no right to question that unless you want to be a Protestant.

People who want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage  should get out of our church and go to the episcopal church and sink to oblivion with it.

What are you running from?  And why are you using the Church as a cover?

I'm running from the disgusting modernist heterodox feminist practices of heretical Christians and heretical Christianity. Being the True Church, such heretics will smash against its solid foundations in vain and fail to change the Church every time. The Traditions of the Church are unchangable and without error. Feminism is disgusting and heretical like misogyny is disgusting and heretical.
Just like your rabid anger will destroy you if you don't get a grip.

Like I said, we will never have gay marriage, altar girls or female priests, those who want theses and want to change the church should simply get out and seek to change the heretical churches which actually entertain heresy and heterodoxy.

If you want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage, then get out of our church.
Calm down, Devin. 8) No one here is arguing that the Church needs to change, so you have no need to get so damned defensive. You obviously have some very strong opinions on this matter, and I (along with maybe a few more of us) would like to know what theological foundation you have for your opinions. Is your faith so weak that you can't just answer a few questions without feeling that the Church is going to crumble around you if you do?

My faith isn't weak, but I am smart enough to realize that if the Orthodox Church ends up like the Anglican and allows things like female priests, gay marriage and altar girls, then it has admitted it was wrong, if the Church admits it was wrong, then it definitely isn't the true church, and if it isn't the true Church, that true Church doesn't exist, and if the Church doesn't exist, Christ was wrong and if Christ was wrong, he isn't God, if the Orthodox Church isn't the true Church and if Christ isn't God, then God doesn't exist.

It isn't about having a weak faith, but being smart enough to realize the impact such disgusting liberal innovations have. If the true Church ends up implementing the changes, then that shows it isn't the Church and in the end, our faith is in vain and there is no God.

This is why I have faith that this Church will absolutely never allow such heretical innovations, because there is no way the Church can be wrong and there is no way the Church can change these things, because the Church, just like God, is changeless.

Basically, if you allow these changes, then you show that the atheists are right and there is no God.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: mike on July 04, 2012, 07:12:56 PM
Does anyone know how female altar servers and gay marriages are linked?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Shiny on July 04, 2012, 07:13:10 PM
We are indeed blessed to live in an era where those harboring anti-clerical and anti-hierarchical beliefs have a public forum to express their outrage and indignation about this and that. Of course - it helps to be anonymous.

If you have a problem with your priest or bishop, have the guts to take it up at a parish meeting or when your bishop visits. Otherwise your opinions have no weight. If you don't like clergy there are plenty of denominations who don't have them.

BTW, we don't have altar girls, never have, never will but we do try to respect our clergy.


I don't have to worry about my Bishop, he's already expressed his displeasure about letting girls/women hold the cloth at communion.
On what theological grounds does he oppose this practice?

Don't ask me ask him, I wasn't at the clergy conference in May when he told them he wouldn't allow it anymore. The simple fact is that he is right, too many parishes in the diocese began becoming liberal and experimenting with the services before blessed +JOB arrived and he had to deal with those disgusting Priests and they were the ones that exhausted him beyond belief. Now our new Bishop is finishing the work of Archbishop Job and cleaning our diocese of the liberalizing and loosy-goosy nature of some of those parishes.

Besides, we don't need a dogmatic reason, we aren't Protestants or Papists, we don't belief in "Sola" anything, especially not dogma alone.

If you want to know then talk to my Bishop not me.

Like I said Peter, you have no right to question the Church on this issue, no altar girls in the last 2000 years and it will never happen ever. Same as no women priests ever... You have no right to question that unless you want to be a Protestant.

People who want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage  should get out of our church and go to the episcopal church and sink to oblivion with it.

What are you running from?  And why are you using the Church as a cover?

I'm running from the disgusting modernist heterodox feminist practices of heretical Christians and heretical Christianity. Being the True Church, such heretics will smash against its solid foundations in vain and fail to change the Church every time. The Traditions of the Church are unchangable and without error. Feminism is disgusting and heretical like misogyny is disgusting and heretical.

Like I said, we will never have gay marriage, altar girls or female priests, those who want theses and want to change the church should simply get out and seek to change the heretical churches which actually entertain heresy and heterodoxy.

If you want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage, then get out of our church.

This is simply incredible.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 04, 2012, 07:14:04 PM
Does anyone know how female altar servers and gay marriages are linked?
they are both a part of the same, disgusting, "innovative", reformationist, modernist spirit that must be snuffed out.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Αριστοκλής on July 04, 2012, 07:33:28 PM
We are indeed blessed to live in an era where those harboring anti-clerical and anti-hierarchical beliefs have a public forum to express their outrage and indignation about this and that. Of course - it helps to be anonymous.

If you have a problem with your priest or bishop, have the guts to take it up at a parish meeting or when your bishop visits. Otherwise your opinions have no weight. If you don't like clergy there are plenty of denominations who don't have them.

BTW, we don't have altar girls, never have, never will but we do try to respect our clergy.


I don't have to worry about my Bishop, he's already expressed his displeasure about letting girls/women hold the cloth at communion.
On what theological grounds does he oppose this practice?

Don't ask me ask him, I wasn't at the clergy conference in May when he told them he wouldn't allow it anymore. The simple fact is that he is right, too many parishes in the diocese began becoming liberal and experimenting with the services before blessed +JOB arrived and he had to deal with those disgusting Priests and they were the ones that exhausted him beyond belief. Now our new Bishop is finishing the work of Archbishop Job and cleaning our diocese of the liberalizing and loosy-goosy nature of some of those parishes.

Besides, we don't need a dogmatic reason, we aren't Protestants or Papists, we don't belief in "Sola" anything, especially not dogma alone.

If you want to know then talk to my Bishop not me.

Like I said Peter, you have no right to question the Church on this issue, no altar girls in the last 2000 years and it will never happen ever. Same as no women priests ever... You have no right to question that unless you want to be a Protestant.

People who want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage  should get out of our church and go to the episcopal church and sink to oblivion with it.

What are you running from?  And why are you using the Church as a cover?

I'm running from the disgusting modernist heterodox feminist practices of heretical Christians and heretical Christianity. Being the True Church, such heretics will smash against its solid foundations in vain and fail to change the Church every time. The Traditions of the Church are unchangable and without error. Feminism is disgusting and heretical like misogyny is disgusting and heretical.

Like I said, we will never have gay marriage, altar girls or female priests, those who want theses and want to change the church should simply get out and seek to change the heretical churches which actually entertain heresy and heterodoxy.

If you want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage, then get out of our church.

This is simply incredible.

Why?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 04, 2012, 07:41:06 PM
We are indeed blessed to live in an era where those harboring anti-clerical and anti-hierarchical beliefs have a public forum to express their outrage and indignation about this and that. Of course - it helps to be anonymous.

If you have a problem with your priest or bishop, have the guts to take it up at a parish meeting or when your bishop visits. Otherwise your opinions have no weight. If you don't like clergy there are plenty of denominations who don't have them.

BTW, we don't have altar girls, never have, never will but we do try to respect our clergy.


I don't have to worry about my Bishop, he's already expressed his displeasure about letting girls/women hold the cloth at communion.
On what theological grounds does he oppose this practice?

Don't ask me ask him, I wasn't at the clergy conference in May when he told them he wouldn't allow it anymore. The simple fact is that he is right, too many parishes in the diocese began becoming liberal and experimenting with the services before blessed +JOB arrived and he had to deal with those disgusting Priests and they were the ones that exhausted him beyond belief. Now our new Bishop is finishing the work of Archbishop Job and cleaning our diocese of the liberalizing and loosy-goosy nature of some of those parishes.

Besides, we don't need a dogmatic reason, we aren't Protestants or Papists, we don't belief in "Sola" anything, especially not dogma alone.

If you want to know then talk to my Bishop not me.

Like I said Peter, you have no right to question the Church on this issue, no altar girls in the last 2000 years and it will never happen ever. Same as no women priests ever... You have no right to question that unless you want to be a Protestant.

People who want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage  should get out of our church and go to the episcopal church and sink to oblivion with it.

What are you running from?  And why are you using the Church as a cover?

I'm running from the disgusting modernist heterodox feminist practices of heretical Christians and heretical Christianity. Being the True Church, such heretics will smash against its solid foundations in vain and fail to change the Church every time. The Traditions of the Church are unchangable and without error. Feminism is disgusting and heretical like misogyny is disgusting and heretical.
Just like your rabid anger will destroy you if you don't get a grip.

Like I said, we will never have gay marriage, altar girls or female priests, those who want theses and want to change the church should simply get out and seek to change the heretical churches which actually entertain heresy and heterodoxy.

If you want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage, then get out of our church.
Calm down, Devin. 8) No one here is arguing that the Church needs to change, so you have no need to get so damned defensive. You obviously have some very strong opinions on this matter, and I (along with maybe a few more of us) would like to know what theological foundation you have for your opinions. Is your faith so weak that you can't just answer a few questions without feeling that the Church is going to crumble around you if you do?

My faith isn't weak, but I am smart enough to realize that if the Orthodox Church ends up like the Anglican and allows things like female priests, gay marriage and altar girls, then it has admitted it was wrong, if the Church admits it was wrong, then it definitely isn't the true church, and if it isn't the true Church, that true Church doesn't exist, and if the Church doesn't exist, Christ was wrong and if Christ was wrong, he isn't God, if the Orthodox Church isn't the true Church and if Christ isn't God, then God doesn't exist.

It isn't about having a weak faith, but being smart enough to realize the impact such disgusting liberal innovations have. If the true Church ends up implementing the changes, then that shows it isn't the Church and in the end, our faith is in vain and there is no God.
IOW, your faith is weak, and your defensiveness shows it.

This is why I have faith that this Church will absolutely never allow such heretical innovations,
But you won't even tell us how allowing girls to serve as altar girls is heretical. For something to be heretical, it has to be teaching a theology other than that which the Church teaches, but you won't identify what theology the practice of altar girls teaches, nor will you tell us what Orthodox theological teachings the practice contradicts.

because there is no way the Church can be wrong and there is no way the Church can change these things, because the Church, just like God, is changeless.
The Church's liturgy has changed over the years. First there was the Liturgy of St. James, then the Liturgy of St. Basil, and later the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. At one time Christians didn't receive Communion on a spoon. At one time we had married bishops and women deacons. At one time penitents confessed their sins publicly for all their local churches to hear.

I'm not advocating that we should ever revive any of these earlier practices, but I do recognize that the Church does change, and on such central things as liturgy, so don't give me this BS that the Church is changeless.

Basically, if you allow these changes, then you show that the atheists are right and there is no God.
I guess there is no God, then, since the Church has changed, and I've shown you how she has.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 04, 2012, 07:59:52 PM
The things you mentioned are a part of tradition not Tradition. Women can never be at the altar and cannot wear sticharion. This an unchangable part of our Tradition. Besides married Bishops and Deaconnesses fell out of common usage, it can still be done.

You are the one without faith because you don't recognize that the divine Church created by God himself is without any error, without any corruption and is absolutely changeless just as God is.

You need to quit listening to hypo-dox Christians and quit questioning the Traditions of the Church. Like I said, if you want to dare question the Church, go become a Protestant.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: NicholasMyra on July 04, 2012, 08:25:51 PM
dare question the Church
That's what they said to St. Maximus.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: ialmisry on July 04, 2012, 08:26:47 PM
Does anyone know how female altar servers and gay marriages are linked?
Birds of a feather flock together.
Gleich und Gleich gesellt sich gern.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: NicholasMyra on July 04, 2012, 08:27:22 PM
Like I said, we will never have gay marriage, altar girls or female priests, those who want theses and want to change the church should simply get out and seek to change the heretical churches which actually entertain heresy and heterodoxy.
You cannot compare women altar servers and deacons with gay marriage and women priests.

Sheesh, dude.

no altar girls in the last 2000 years and it will never happen ever.
You really think there haven't been altar girls throughout history?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 04, 2012, 08:28:53 PM
The things you mentioned are a part of tradition not Tradition. Women can never be at the altar and cannot wear sticharion. This an unchangable part of our Tradition.
And why is this an unchangeable part of Tradition while our Liturgy is not?

Besides married Bishops and Deaconnesses fell out of common usage, it can still be done.
I'll bet that if we ever ordain a woman to the diaconate, she'll wear more vestments than just a sticharion. Also, why will you not allow a girl to be an altar girl if you will allow for the possibility that we may ordain a woman to the diaconate? Don't you see the inconsistency in your reasoning on this point?

You are the one without faith because you don't recognize that the divine Church created by God himself is without any error, without any corruption and is absolutely changeless just as God is.
I'm sorry that my refusal to agree with you shows you that I have no faith. I've shown you how the Church has changed over the centuries, and you've even acknowledged the truth in the evidence I cited (though you dismissed it as tradition), yet you still argue that canard that the Church is changeless.

You need to quit listening to hypo-dox Christians and quit questioning the Traditions of the Church.
Wow! :o Someone who disagrees with you is now hypodox! Does your judgmentalism know any bounds?

Like I said, if you want to dare question the Church, go become a Protestant.
As I keep saying, I'm not questioning the Church. I'm questioning you, and you keep hiding behind the Church.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Orthodox11 on July 04, 2012, 08:45:16 PM
And why is this an unchangeable part of Tradition while our Liturgy is not?

The Liturgy is an unchangeable part of Church Tradition. The specific wording of our many liturgies are not.

The male priesthood, which extends also to the minor orders (the female diaconate does not correspond to the male diaconate, but is an entirely different role) is also an unchangeable tradition of the Church.

Quote
I'll bet that if we ever ordain a woman to the diaconate, she'll wear more vestments than just a sticharion. Also, why will you not allow a girl to be an altar girl if you will allow for the possibility that we may ordain a woman to the diaconate? Don't you see the inconsistency in your reasoning on this point?

Given that the female diaconate is something quite different from the regular diaconate, it's quite superflous to the discussion at hand, and it is only by drawing a false equivalency between the two that you can accuse Devin of inconsistency on this point. A deaconess would not be serving in the altar, but in the baptistries, hospitals, prisons, schools, private homes, etc.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 04, 2012, 08:48:54 PM
And why is this an unchangeable part of Tradition while our Liturgy is not?

The Liturgy is an unchangeable part of Church Tradition. The specific wording of our many liturgies are not.

The male priesthood, which extends also to the minor orders (the female diaconate does not correspond to the male diaconate, but is an entirely different role) is also an unchangeable tradition of the Church.

Quote
I'll bet that if we ever ordain a woman to the diaconate, she'll wear more vestments than just a sticharion. Also, why will you not allow a girl to be an altar girl if you will allow for the possibility that we may ordain a woman to the diaconate? Don't you see the inconsistency in your reasoning on this point?

Given that the female diaconate is something quite different from the regular diaconate, it's quite superflous to the discussion at hand, and it is only by drawing a false equivalency between the two that you can accuse Devin of inconsistency on this point. A deaconess would not be serving in the altar, but in the baptistries, hospitals, prisons, schools, private homes, etc.
I've seen sufficient evidence to believe that the female diaconate may really have been much more similar to the male diaconate than you say it is.

BTW, on the points where I've been questioning Devin, I want Devin to answer for himself, since it's his opinions that demand a cogent defense, and only he can articulate that defense.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 04, 2012, 08:55:46 PM
We are indeed blessed to live in an era where those harboring anti-clerical and anti-hierarchical beliefs have a public forum to express their outrage and indignation about this and that. Of course - it helps to be anonymous.

If you have a problem with your priest or bishop, have the guts to take it up at a parish meeting or when your bishop visits. Otherwise your opinions have no weight. If you don't like clergy there are plenty of denominations who don't have them.

BTW, we don't have altar girls, never have, never will but we do try to respect our clergy.


I don't have to worry about my Bishop, he's already expressed his displeasure about letting girls/women hold the cloth at communion.
On what theological grounds does he oppose this practice?

Don't ask me ask him, I wasn't at the clergy conference in May when he told them he wouldn't allow it anymore. The simple fact is that he is right, too many parishes in the diocese began becoming liberal and experimenting with the services before blessed +JOB arrived and he had to deal with those disgusting Priests and they were the ones that exhausted him beyond belief. Now our new Bishop is finishing the work of Archbishop Job and cleaning our diocese of the liberalizing and loosy-goosy nature of some of those parishes.

Besides, we don't need a dogmatic reason, we aren't Protestants or Papists, we don't belief in "Sola" anything, especially not dogma alone.

If you want to know then talk to my Bishop not me.

Like I said Peter, you have no right to question the Church on this issue, no altar girls in the last 2000 years and it will never happen ever. Same as no women priests ever... You have no right to question that unless you want to be a Protestant.

People who want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage  should get out of our church and go to the episcopal church and sink to oblivion with it.

What are you running from?  And why are you using the Church as a cover?

I'm running from the disgusting modernist heterodox feminist practices of heretical Christians and heretical Christianity. Being the True Church, such heretics will smash against its solid foundations in vain and fail to change the Church every time. The Traditions of the Church are unchangable and without error. Feminism is disgusting and heretical like misogyny is disgusting and heretical.
Just like your rabid anger will destroy you if you don't get a grip.

Like I said, we will never have gay marriage, altar girls or female priests, those who want theses and want to change the church should simply get out and seek to change the heretical churches which actually entertain heresy and heterodoxy.

If you want altar girls, female priests and gay marriage, then get out of our church.
Calm down, Devin. 8) No one here is arguing that the Church needs to change, so you have no need to get so damned defensive. You obviously have some very strong opinions on this matter, and I (along with maybe a few more of us) would like to know what theological foundation you have for your opinions. Is your faith so weak that you can't just answer a few questions without feeling that the Church is going to crumble around you if you do?

My faith isn't weak, but I am smart enough to realize that if the Orthodox Church ends up like the Anglican and allows things like female priests, gay marriage and altar girls, then it has admitted it was wrong, if the Church admits it was wrong, then it definitely isn't the true church, and if it isn't the true Church, that true Church doesn't exist, and if the Church doesn't exist, Christ was wrong and if Christ was wrong, he isn't God, if the Orthodox Church isn't the true Church and if Christ isn't God, then God doesn't exist.

It isn't about having a weak faith, but being smart enough to realize the impact such disgusting liberal innovations have. If the true Church ends up implementing the changes, then that shows it isn't the Church and in the end, our faith is in vain and there is no God.
IOW, your faith is weak, and your defensiveness shows it.

This is why I have faith that this Church will absolutely never allow such heretical innovations, because there is no way the Church can be wrong and there is no way the Church can change these things, because the Church, just like God, is changeless.
The Church's liturgy has changed over the years. First there was the Liturgy of St. James, then the Liturgy of St. Basil, and later the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. At one time Christians didn't receive Communion on a spoon. At one time we had married bishops and women deacons. I'm not advocating that we should ever revive any of these earlier practices. I do recognize, however, that the Church does change, and on such central things as liturgy. So don't give me this BS that the Church is changeless.

Basically, if you allow these changes, then you show that the atheists are right and there is no God.
I guess there is no God, then, since the Church has changed, and I've shown you how she has.

Not to mention the liturgy of St. Mark, among others.  And it wasn't even just that Christians received Communion on a spoon, but even took it home with them.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 04, 2012, 09:14:31 PM
The things you mentioned are a part of tradition not Tradition. Women can never be at the altar and cannot wear sticharion. This an unchangable part of our Tradition.
And why is this an unchangeable part of Tradition while our Liturgy is not?

Besides married Bishops and Deaconnesses fell out of common usage, it can still be done.
I'll bet that if we ever ordain a woman to the diaconate, she'll wear more vestments than just a sticharion. Also, why will you not allow a girl to be an altar girl if you will allow for the possibility that we may ordain a woman to the diaconate? Don't you see the inconsistency in your reasoning on this point?

You are the one without faith because you don't recognize that the divine Church created by God himself is without any error, without any corruption and is absolutely changeless just as God is.
I'm sorry that my refusal to agree with you shows you that I have no faith. I've shown you how the Church has changed over the centuries, and you've even acknowledged the truth in the evidence I cited (though you dismissed it as tradition), yet you still argue that canard that the Church is changeless.

You need to quit listening to hypo-dox Christians and quit questioning the Traditions of the Church.
Wow! :o Someone who disagrees with you is now hypodox! Does your judgmentalism know any bounds?

Like I said, if you want to dare question the Church, go become a Protestant.
As I keep saying, I'm not questioning the Church. I'm questioning you, and you keep hiding behind the Church.

You mistake male deacons with the female deaconess. If you actually knew the history of the Church you would know that the deaconess had to be a much older woman, about in her 40s, who was unmarried. While they shared some duties that deacons had, they didn't share the Eucharist duties, and probably didn't utter the litanies.

You are also mistaken in believing the deaconess has "fallen out of use" when Orthodox Churches still have them, and the Russian Church apparently still has them. In fact, you can find photographs of deaconess' on the internet, and guess what? They are in monastic garb, they aren't wearing sticharion.

If you read Canon 19 of the First Ecumenical Council, you will also see that the deaconess was regarded as part of the laity, NOT the clergy. Also in that time, I think it is safe to say that in the Byzantine Empire, what is the sticharion was probably something men wore rather than women. Look at the iconography of all deaconess Saints, do they wear sticharion or clerical garments? No...

Their role was in assistance of duties with women, like baptism. They did not serve ANY sacerdotal role.

In fact, they probably wore the maphorion, like the Theotokos in icons, possibly along with the orarion wrapped around her in the manner of a sub-deacon (wrapped around with both ends hanging in front).

Relevant Canons:

Quote
Canon XIX of the First Council of Nicaea:
... ... Likewise in the case of their deaconesses, and generally in the case of those who have been enrolled among their clergy, let the same form be observed.  And we mean by deaconesses such as have assumed the habit, but who, since they have no imposition of hands, are to be numbered only among the laity.

Quote
Canon XV of Chalcedon:
A woman shall not receive the laying on of hands as a deaconess under forty years of age, and then only after searching examination.  And if, after she has had hands laid on her and has continued for a time to minister, she shall despise the grace of God and give herself in marriage, she shall be anathematized and the man united to her.

Quote
Canon XI of Laodicia:
Presbytides, as they are called, or female presidents, are not to be appointed in the Church.

The statement by the OCA Synod:
Quote
http://oca.org/news/archived/statement-concerning-liturgical-practices-in-parishes

... In their concern for maintaining the integrity of the Church and its traditions, the Holy Synod of Bishops of the Orthodox Church in America, meeting at Saint Tikhon of Zadonsk Monastery in South Canaan, Pennsylvania, October 18-21, 2004, reaffirms the ancient practice of the Orthodox Church that only males are to be admitted to service within the holy altar. Any practice to the contrary in this regard is strictly forbidden. ...

IF a woman is in the sanctuary of the parish, there needs to be good reason (as has been pointed out, like any layperson) and it isn't for "serving" in the role like an altar-girl. As far as I'm aware, the only women allowed back there are the deaconess and from what I've read, its only for communion and (in ancient times) to get the chalice to distribute to the women.

In short, no altar girls, only the deaconess. Yet even with the deaconess, there isn't any reason for them to be behind in the sanctuary unless there is a good reason or if it is part of their duty as a deaconess.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 04, 2012, 09:17:54 PM
And why is this an unchangeable part of Tradition while our Liturgy is not?

The Liturgy is an unchangeable part of Church Tradition. The specific wording of our many liturgies are not.

The male priesthood, which extends also to the minor orders (the female diaconate does not correspond to the male diaconate, but is an entirely different role) is also an unchangeable tradition of the Church.

Quote
I'll bet that if we ever ordain a woman to the diaconate, she'll wear more vestments than just a sticharion. Also, why will you not allow a girl to be an altar girl if you will allow for the possibility that we may ordain a woman to the diaconate? Don't you see the inconsistency in your reasoning on this point?

Given that the female diaconate is something quite different from the regular diaconate, it's quite superflous to the discussion at hand, and it is only by drawing a false equivalency between the two that you can accuse Devin of inconsistency on this point. A deaconess would not be serving in the altar, but in the baptistries, hospitals, prisons, schools, private homes, etc.
I've seen sufficient evidence to believe that the female diaconate may really have been much more similar to the male diaconate than you say it is.

BTW, on the points where I've been questioning Devin, I want Devin to answer for himself, since it's his opinions that demand a cogent defense, and only he can articulate that defense.

How am I the one who has to answer to you? I'm remaining within the Orthodox tradition. Those who want altar girls are the ones who have to answer why they should be allowed, not me.

As for unchangeable tradition, the Liturgy hasn't changed, we haven't ever eliminated the Eucharist nor the reading of the Epistle nor the basic core of the liturgy. The wording has changed a little in various points and it has been greatly expanded, but it hasn't changed.

Like Orthodox11 said, the male Priesthood is unchangeable and the deaconess' role is unchangeable. There is no possibility for altar girls because there is no such role. The reason altar boys are allowed is because we assume that they are in training to eventually become readers or subdeacons. Altar Girls have no role to train for by standing up at the altar and serving in the roles of deacons and readers.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Orthodox11 on July 04, 2012, 09:21:18 PM
they didn't share the Eucharist duties

One of their duties would be to distribute the Eucharist to women unable to attend the liturgy, those confined to hospitals, prison or their homes. So the Eucharist played a big part in the ministry of deaconesses. Those 'Eucharist duties' did not occur as part of the divine Liturgy, however.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 04, 2012, 09:32:17 PM
they didn't share the Eucharist duties

One of their duties would be to distribute the Eucharist to women unable to attend the liturgy, those confined to hospitals, prison or their homes. So the Eucharist played a big part in the ministry of deaconesses. Those 'Eucharist duties' did not occur as part of the divine Liturgy, however.

One of the sources I read said that they did distribute it to the women during Liturgy and received communion at the same time as the Deacons behind at the altar.

We have to remember that in those days, many parishes had balconies and that is where the women stood. It probably was more effective to have a deaconess take the Eucharist to a place where those women could receive it in the church without having to come down from the balconies all the way up to the front. Of course, they may have received at the front as well, but from what I read, the deaconess did handle the chalice in giving it to the women during Liturgy, but that seems to be her only "Liturgical" role.

One specific rite I read about talked about how during their tonsuring, they receive communion and took the chalice to the altar. However, of course, who knows if that was an orthodox service.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: SolEX01 on July 04, 2012, 10:11:39 PM
You are the one without faith because you don't recognize that the divine Church created by God himself is without any error, without any corruption and is absolutely changeless just as God is.

You need to quit listening to hypo-dox Christians and quit questioning the Traditions of the Church. Like I said, if you want to dare question the Church, go become a Protestant.

Are you listening to yourself say these words as you type them?  Look at the bolded text, you are questioning the Church with this tirade.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 04, 2012, 10:13:47 PM
You are the one without faith because you don't recognize that the divine Church created by God himself is without any error, without any corruption and is absolutely changeless just as God is.

You need to quit listening to hypo-dox Christians and quit questioning the Traditions of the Church. Like I said, if you want to dare question the Church, go become a Protestant.

Are you listening to yourself say these words as you type them?  Look at the bolded text, you are questioning the Church with this tirade.

I'm not questioning the Church because the role of altar girls hasn't ever been allowed. Altar boys are considered in training for the roles of readers, subdeacons and deacons, roles which women cannot fulfill.

I have the Church on my side here, you should know that based on our Tradition and our canons.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: SolEX01 on July 04, 2012, 10:19:50 PM
You are the one without faith because you don't recognize that the divine Church created by God himself is without any error, without any corruption and is absolutely changeless just as God is.

You need to quit listening to hypo-dox Christians and quit questioning the Traditions of the Church. Like I said, if you want to dare question the Church, go become a Protestant.

Are you listening to yourself say these words as you type them?  Look at the bolded text, you are questioning the Church with this tirade.

I'm not questioning the Church because the role of altar girls hasn't ever been allowed.

How do you know that?  There is a point of contact at the church in Jacksonville, FL where you are free to call and ask rational questions about their ministry.  I doubt that this program can exist without the Metropolitan of Atlanta's blessing because he has to bless the young girls in order for them to enter the sanctuary.

Altar boys are considered in training for the roles of readers, subdeacons and deacons, roles which women cannot fulfill.

So you have an issue with female Parish Council members reading the Epistle - a common occurrence at most Orthodox Churches.  Or, you have an issue with female Sunday School students reading the Epistle, which occurs at some Orthodox Churches.

I have the Church on my side here, you should know that based on our Tradition and our canons.

Who's "our"? ???
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Marc1152 on July 04, 2012, 10:26:11 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Just wondering for those of you who are strictly opposed to women being in the altar:
In your parish, who does the cleaning in the altar?

Men silly ;)

By the way, why should women necessarily be involved with cleaning in the first place? At our parish, our custodian is also a man, his name is Gus and he is very good to us ;)

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I clean ours..More or less
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 04, 2012, 10:26:35 PM
So you have an issue with female Parish Council members reading the Epistle - a common occurrence at most Orthodox Churches.  Or, you have an issue with female Sunday School students reading the Epistle, which occurs at some Orthodox Churches.

Yes actually I do, in the Churches I have attended, only men (and if a reader is available the reader) read the Epistle.

The ONLY reason this should be occurring and the ONLY reason anyone other than the Reader or someone in training as a Reader should be reading the Epistle is if readers are available and no men (who can chant well) are available.

This is another one of the things which our Bishop has warned against and that if possible, only Readers, and after that only Men should read the Epistle. Even little children shouldn't be reading the Epistle.

BTW, I've heard several women at the parishes I've attended support this and say that the only reason they have ever read is when their parish only had a few attendees and no baptized men who could chant were available.

This is an abuse the several jurisdictions, including the GOA is guilty of. Just because someone is "respected" in the community, or they are a "cute kid" doesn't mean they should be reading the Epistle. We trivialize the reading of the holy Epistle when we act like it is simply something that is just read by respected members of the community in church.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Shiny on July 04, 2012, 10:31:01 PM
Devin, never stop posting.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: SolEX01 on July 04, 2012, 10:34:37 PM
This is an abuse the several jurisdictions, including the GOA is guilty of.

Yup, you have issues with the GOA and the Antiochians for not doing things the way your traditionalist OCA Church does them.

Just because someone is "respected" in the community, or they are a "cute kid" doesn't mean they should be reading the Epistle.

I read the Epistle on 2 occasions when I was in Sunday School and that wasn't because I was "respected" or a "cute kid."

We trivialize the reading of the holy Epistle when we act like it is simply something that is just read by respected members of the community in church.

No, we emulate the Apostle Paul and his disciples by reading the Epistle.  Reading the Epistle is not reserved strictly for readers and chanters because Paul himself says that people of all talents are needed in the church (1 Corinthians 12:27-31).
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 04, 2012, 10:36:56 PM
And why is this an unchangeable part of Tradition while our Liturgy is not?

The Liturgy is an unchangeable part of Church Tradition. The specific wording of our many liturgies are not.

The male priesthood, which extends also to the minor orders (the female diaconate does not correspond to the male diaconate, but is an entirely different role) is also an unchangeable tradition of the Church.

Quote
I'll bet that if we ever ordain a woman to the diaconate, she'll wear more vestments than just a sticharion. Also, why will you not allow a girl to be an altar girl if you will allow for the possibility that we may ordain a woman to the diaconate? Don't you see the inconsistency in your reasoning on this point?

Given that the female diaconate is something quite different from the regular diaconate, it's quite superflous to the discussion at hand, and it is only by drawing a false equivalency between the two that you can accuse Devin of inconsistency on this point. A deaconess would not be serving in the altar, but in the baptistries, hospitals, prisons, schools, private homes, etc.
I've seen sufficient evidence to believe that the female diaconate may really have been much more similar to the male diaconate than you say it is.

BTW, on the points where I've been questioning Devin, I want Devin to answer for himself, since it's his opinions that demand a cogent defense, and only he can articulate that defense.

How am I the one who has to answer to you? I'm remaining within the Orthodox tradition. Those who want altar girls are the ones who have to answer why they should be allowed, not me.
I don't care one way or the other. I simply asked you to give a theological defense for your opposition to altar girls, since I'm not convinced that your opinion is based on the Tradition of the Church. So far you've resisted giving any answers.

As for unchangeable tradition, the Liturgy hasn't changed, we haven't ever eliminated the Eucharist nor the reading of the Epistle nor the basic core of the liturgy. The wording has changed a little in various points and it has been greatly expanded, but it hasn't changed.
Okay. Thank you for finally engaging one of my points.

Like Orthodox11 said, the male Priesthood is unchangeable and the deaconess' role is unchangeable. There is no possibility for altar girls because there is no such role.
That assumes that altar boys and altar girls are different roles. They're not, AFAIK. So why must the role of the altar server be reserved only for men?

The reason altar boys are allowed is because we assume that they are in training to eventually become readers or subdeacons. Altar Girls have no role to train for by standing up at the altar and serving in the roles of deacons and readers.
Is that assumption really the reason why we don't allow girls to serve in the altar?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 04, 2012, 10:38:46 PM
they didn't share the Eucharist duties

One of their duties would be to distribute the Eucharist to women unable to attend the liturgy, those confined to hospitals, prison or their homes. So the Eucharist played a big part in the ministry of deaconesses. Those 'Eucharist duties' did not occur as part of the divine Liturgy, however.

One of the sources I read said that they did distribute it to the women during Liturgy and received communion at the same time as the Deacons behind at the altar.
What sources are you reading?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 04, 2012, 10:40:42 PM
So you have an issue with female Parish Council members reading the Epistle - a common occurrence at most Orthodox Churches.  Or, you have an issue with female Sunday School students reading the Epistle, which occurs at some Orthodox Churches.

Yes actually I do, in the Churches I have attended, only men (and if a reader is available the reader) read the Epistle.

The ONLY reason this should be occurring and the ONLY reason anyone other than the Reader or someone in training as a Reader should be reading the Epistle is if readers are available and no men (who can chant well) are available.

This is another one of the things which our Bishop has warned against and that if possible, only Readers, and after that only Men should read the Epistle. Even little children shouldn't be reading the Epistle.

BTW, I've heard several women at the parishes I've attended support this and say that the only reason they have ever read is when their parish only had a few attendees and no baptized men who could chant were available.

This is an abuse the several jurisdictions, including the GOA is guilty of. Just because someone is "respected" in the community, or they are a "cute kid" doesn't mean they should be reading the Epistle. We trivialize the reading of the holy Epistle when we act like it is simply something that is just read by respected members of the community in church.
What theological reason do you have for arguing that only men be permitted to read the Epistle during the Liturgy?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 04, 2012, 10:47:11 PM
So you have an issue with female Parish Council members reading the Epistle - a common occurrence at most Orthodox Churches.  Or, you have an issue with female Sunday School students reading the Epistle, which occurs at some Orthodox Churches.

Yes actually I do, in the Churches I have attended, only men (and if a reader is available the reader) read the Epistle.

The ONLY reason this should be occurring and the ONLY reason anyone other than the Reader or someone in training as a Reader should be reading the Epistle is if readers are available and no men (who can chant well) are available.

This is another one of the things which our Bishop has warned against and that if possible, only Readers, and after that only Men should read the Epistle. Even little children shouldn't be reading the Epistle.

BTW, I've heard several women at the parishes I've attended support this and say that the only reason they have ever read is when their parish only had a few attendees and no baptized men who could chant were available.

This is an abuse the several jurisdictions, including the GOA is guilty of. Just because someone is "respected" in the community, or they are a "cute kid" doesn't mean they should be reading the Epistle. We trivialize the reading of the holy Epistle when we act like it is simply something that is just read by respected members of the community in church.
What theological reason do you have for arguing that only men be permitted to read the Epistle during the Liturgy?

The fact that the role is restricted to the role of the Reader (only males can be readers).

The only reason it can be otherwise is out of economy when a Reader is not present, and if a Reader is not present, someone who is in training to be a Reader should be the one to read the Epistle.

Peter, just quit trying to play the devil's advocate. If you truly are Orthodox and don't think altar girls should be permitted then you have absolutely no reason to question me.

I'm sure you also are either ignoring or just didn't see reply number 127.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 04, 2012, 10:49:22 PM
This is an abuse the several jurisdictions, including the GOA is guilty of.

Yup, you have issues with the GOA and the Antiochians for not doing things the way your traditionalist OCA Church does them.

Just because someone is "respected" in the community, or they are a "cute kid" doesn't mean they should be reading the Epistle.

I read the Epistle on 2 occasions when I was in Sunday School and that wasn't because I was "respected" or a "cute kid."

We trivialize the reading of the holy Epistle when we act like it is simply something that is just read by respected members of the community in church.

No, we emulate the Apostle Paul and his disciples by reading the Epistle.  Reading the Epistle is not reserved strictly for readers and chanters because Paul himself says that people of all talents are needed in the church (1 Corinthians 12:27-31).

It isn't just those two jurisdictions that are guilty of it, the OCA is too. There are FAR too many Orthodox here in America who have tried to "Americanize" and thus have adopted heretical Protestant sensibilities. This includes female readers, altar girls, pews, organs, westernized iconography, women holding the communion cloth etc...

I guarantee you don't see altar girls in most of the "Old World" there is a reason for it and we need our Bishops to begin cracking down on such illegal innovations like my Bishop has been.

There are circumstances where some things can be permitted via economy. However economy should NEVER become the norm. That is why it is called economy, it is allowed under that specific, temporary circumstance.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 04, 2012, 10:50:13 PM
Devin, you see me keep pressing you for theological reasons for why we the Church do what we do. What I would like to see from you is a statement of how men and women are ontologically different in God's sight and how those ontological differences dictate that only men can be permitted to perform most of the liturgical ministries in the Church. I understand that we have traditionally done things a particular way, and I'm certainly not going to be so presumptuous as to say that we should change that. Given time, I suppose I can even articulate some theological reasons for why we do what we do. Merely saying, "We've always done things this way, so we're always going to do things this way, and nothing's ever going to change," is an intellectual cop-out, IMO. Our Church is built on theological revelation, not thoughtless repetition.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: SolEX01 on July 04, 2012, 10:54:34 PM
The fact that the role is restricted to the role of the Reader (only males can be readers).

Do you believe in female saints that are equal to the Apostles, like St. Mary Magdalene, St. Olga, St. Helen?  Do you believe it is OK for women to be teachers?  Does your Bishop believe that it is OK for women to be teachers?

The only reason it can be otherwise is out of economy when a Reader is not present, and if a Reader is not present, someone who is in training to be a Reader should be the one to read the Epistle.

According to whom do you base the above statement?

Peter, just quit trying to play the devil's advocate. If you truly are Orthodox and don't think altar girls should be permitted then you have absolutely no reason to question me.

I don't know why this parish in Jacksonville, FL allows altar girls nor do I know why Metropolitan Alexios allows this parish (and others?) to have altar girls?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 04, 2012, 10:55:07 PM
Devin, you see me keep pressing you for theological reasons for why we the Church do what we do. What I would like to see from you is a statement of how men and women are ontologically different in God's sight and how those ontological differences dictate that only men can be permitted to perform most of the liturgical ministries in the Church. I understand that we have traditionally done things a particular way, and I'm certainly not going to be so presumptuous as to say that we should change that. Given time, I suppose I can even articulate some theological reasons for why we do what we do. Merely saying, "We've always done things this way, so we're always going to do things this way, and nothing's ever going to change," is an intellectual cop-out, IMO. Our Church is built on theological revelation, not thoughtless repetition.

So what if it is an intellectual cop-out? I'm no theologian and don't know the answer to everything. I shouldn't be expected to have an answer for everything in the Orthodox world.

Saying, "we've always done it this way and it isn't going to change" is true. It HAS always been this way and it ISN'T ever going to change. There are good theological reasons for it but why should we care to articulate them instead of just accepting the way it is and realizing we cannot change it? If people don't like it, they should simply get out, or submit and accept it instead of trying to change things.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 04, 2012, 10:56:16 PM
So you have an issue with female Parish Council members reading the Epistle - a common occurrence at most Orthodox Churches.  Or, you have an issue with female Sunday School students reading the Epistle, which occurs at some Orthodox Churches.

Yes actually I do, in the Churches I have attended, only men (and if a reader is available the reader) read the Epistle.

The ONLY reason this should be occurring and the ONLY reason anyone other than the Reader or someone in training as a Reader should be reading the Epistle is if readers are available and no men (who can chant well) are available.

This is another one of the things which our Bishop has warned against and that if possible, only Readers, and after that only Men should read the Epistle. Even little children shouldn't be reading the Epistle.

BTW, I've heard several women at the parishes I've attended support this and say that the only reason they have ever read is when their parish only had a few attendees and no baptized men who could chant were available.

This is an abuse the several jurisdictions, including the GOA is guilty of. Just because someone is "respected" in the community, or they are a "cute kid" doesn't mean they should be reading the Epistle. We trivialize the reading of the holy Epistle when we act like it is simply something that is just read by respected members of the community in church.
What theological reason do you have for arguing that only men be permitted to read the Epistle during the Liturgy?

The fact that the role is restricted to the role of the Reader (only males can be readers).

The only reason it can be otherwise is out of economy when a Reader is not present, and if a Reader is not present, someone who is in training to be a Reader should be the one to read the Epistle.
That's not a theological reason. I would appreciate even a citation of St. Paul's injunction that we not allow women to be in positions of authority over men, but what you've provided is nothing more than another repetition of, "this is simply the way we do things in the Church."

Peter, just quit trying to play the devil's advocate. If you truly are Orthodox and don't think altar girls should be permitted then you have absolutely no reason to question me.
I'm not playing devil's advocate, so please quit projecting that motive onto me. I merely want to know the foundation on which you build your opinions.

I'm sure you also are either ignoring or just didn't see reply number 127.
No, I've seen it, and I'm not ignoring it. It's just a bit more complicated to respond to than your other posts, and drafting a reply would take more time.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 04, 2012, 10:59:47 PM
The fact that the role is restricted to the role of the Reader (only males can be readers).

Do you believe in female saints that are equal to the Apostles, like St. Mary Magdalene, St. Olga, St. Helen?  Do you believe it is OK for women to be teachers?  Does your Bishop believe that it is OK for women to be teachers?

The only reason it can be otherwise is out of economy when a Reader is not present, and if a Reader is not present, someone who is in training to be a Reader should be the one to read the Epistle.

According to whom do you base the above statement?

Peter, just quit trying to play the devil's advocate. If you truly are Orthodox and don't think altar girls should be permitted then you have absolutely no reason to question me.

I don't know why this parish in Jacksonville, FL allows altar girls nor do I know why Metropolitan Alexios allows this parish (and others?) to have altar girls?

Being a Reader isn't simply the role of a "teacher" I don't see why you think that it is. Women simply cannot be tonsured as Readers, that is a fact of our Church. It is just like the sub-deaconate, the deaconate, the priesthood and the episcopacy.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 04, 2012, 11:01:05 PM
So you have an issue with female Parish Council members reading the Epistle - a common occurrence at most Orthodox Churches.  Or, you have an issue with female Sunday School students reading the Epistle, which occurs at some Orthodox Churches.

Yes actually I do, in the Churches I have attended, only men (and if a reader is available the reader) read the Epistle.

The ONLY reason this should be occurring and the ONLY reason anyone other than the Reader or someone in training as a Reader should be reading the Epistle is if readers are available and no men (who can chant well) are available.

This is another one of the things which our Bishop has warned against and that if possible, only Readers, and after that only Men should read the Epistle. Even little children shouldn't be reading the Epistle.

BTW, I've heard several women at the parishes I've attended support this and say that the only reason they have ever read is when their parish only had a few attendees and no baptized men who could chant were available.

This is an abuse the several jurisdictions, including the GOA is guilty of. Just because someone is "respected" in the community, or they are a "cute kid" doesn't mean they should be reading the Epistle. We trivialize the reading of the holy Epistle when we act like it is simply something that is just read by respected members of the community in church.
What theological reason do you have for arguing that only men be permitted to read the Epistle during the Liturgy?

The fact that the role is restricted to the role of the Reader (only males can be readers).

The only reason it can be otherwise is out of economy when a Reader is not present, and if a Reader is not present, someone who is in training to be a Reader should be the one to read the Epistle.
That's not a theological reason. I would appreciate even a citation of St. Paul's injunction that we not allow women to be in positions of authority over men, but what you've provided is nothing more than another repetition of, "this is simply the way we do things in the Church."

Peter, just quit trying to play the devil's advocate. If you truly are Orthodox and don't think altar girls should be permitted then you have absolutely no reason to question me.
I'm not playing devil's advocate, so please quit projecting that motive onto me. I merely want to know the foundation on which you build your opinions.

I'm sure you also are either ignoring or just didn't see reply number 127.
No, I've seen it, and I'm not ignoring it. It's just a bit more complicated to respond to than your other posts, and drafting a reply would take more time.

We don't need theological reasons to defend our church's traditions. They are there, but who cares what they are, we aren't going to change them. People who want to change them should either get out of the church or submit and accept them as they are.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: SolEX01 on July 04, 2012, 11:02:02 PM
It isn't just those two jurisdictions that are guilty of it, the OCA is too. There are FAR too many Orthodox here in America who have tried to "Americanize" and thus have adopted heretical Protestant sensibilities. This includes female readers, altar girls, pews, organs, westernized iconography, women holding the communion cloth etc...

The Church in America continues to evolve and suffer growing pains.  That's why there's an Episcopal Assembly whose work may take decades, even centuries, to come to fruition.

I guarantee you don't see altar girls in most of the "Old World" there is a reason for it and we need our Bishops to begin cracking down on such illegal innovations like my Bishop has been.

Can you provide links to where your Bishop has issued statements condemning what you deem "heretical Protestant sensibilities?"

There are circumstances where some things can be permitted via economy. However economy should NEVER become the norm. That is why it is called economy, it is allowed under that specific, temporary circumstance.

Do you think what you see is an abuse of economy?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 04, 2012, 11:03:56 PM
Devin, you see me keep pressing you for theological reasons for why we the Church do what we do. What I would like to see from you is a statement of how men and women are ontologically different in God's sight and how those ontological differences dictate that only men can be permitted to perform most of the liturgical ministries in the Church. I understand that we have traditionally done things a particular way, and I'm certainly not going to be so presumptuous as to say that we should change that. Given time, I suppose I can even articulate some theological reasons for why we do what we do. Merely saying, "We've always done things this way, so we're always going to do things this way, and nothing's ever going to change," is an intellectual cop-out, IMO. Our Church is built on theological revelation, not thoughtless repetition.

So what if it is an intellectual cop-out? I'm no theologian and don't know the answer to everything. I shouldn't be expected to have an answer for everything in the Orthodox world.
Even "I don't know" is an answer. In fact, it's often a much better answer than those you've provided on this thread.

Saying, "we've always done it this way and it isn't going to change" is true. It HAS always been this way and it ISN'T ever going to change. There are good theological reasons for it but why should we care to articulate them instead of just accepting the way it is and realizing we cannot change it?
I will venture to say that most people are not like you. If they have a good theological understanding of why we do what we do, they'll voice those theological reasons. If not, they're not going to pontificate that we should just accept it just because that's the way we've always done things.

In the end, though, I don't think there's any room for your virulent anti-intellectualism in the Church.

If people don't like it, they should simply get out, or submit and accept it instead of trying to change things.
Again, I'm not trying to change things. I'm just trying to understand.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: SolEX01 on July 04, 2012, 11:07:29 PM
Being a Reader isn't simply the role of a "teacher" I don't see why you think that it is.

Because he/she is reading the words written by Paul or one of the Apostles who went and taught the entire world.

Women simply cannot be tonsured as Readers, that is a fact of our Church. It is just like the sub-deaconate, the deaconate, the priesthood and the episcopacy.

An example of economy is tonsuring a women, who chants, as a reader.  Some Orthodox Churches have female chanters; maybe your visits to traditional Orthodox lands have caused you to lose sight of the reality of the Orthodox Church as it currently exists in America.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 04, 2012, 11:08:46 PM
It isn't just those two jurisdictions that are guilty of it, the OCA is too. There are FAR too many Orthodox here in America who have tried to "Americanize" and thus have adopted heretical Protestant sensibilities. This includes female readers, altar girls, pews, organs, westernized iconography, women holding the communion cloth etc...

The Church in America continues to evolve and suffer growing pains.  That's why there's an Episcopal Assembly whose work may take decades, even centuries, to come to fruition.

I guarantee you don't see altar girls in most of the "Old World" there is a reason for it and we need our Bishops to begin cracking down on such illegal innovations like my Bishop has been.

Can you provide links to where your Bishop has issued statements condemning what you deem "heretical Protestant sensibilities?"

There are circumstances where some things can be permitted via economy. However economy should NEVER become the norm. That is why it is called economy, it is allowed under that specific, temporary circumstance.

Do you think what you see is an abuse of economy?

I have no links because it was a conference of clergy with the Bishop, and I had heard the same exact thing from several Priests, and the laypeople who had been forwarded the Bishop's email.

Yes, I do believe it is an abuse of economy... I have attended a mission parish which would occasionally have to have women read the epistle (though they would sometimes ask me to do so for them) because they didn't have anymore than a few people in attendance. Yet that same mission parish now has more members in attendance and only the baptized men read, and the women in the parish have vocally expressed their dislike for the practice of making it a regular rule of having laypeople (especially women and children) read the Epistle during Liturgy.

I have seen a parish with 150 people in attendance have a female member of the parish read the Epistle (and they had allowed a young child in the congregation, not an altar boy read the epistle on another occasion). This same parish had about 10 kids (from very young to late adolescence) serving as altar boys. They also had 2-3 deacons serving and multiple Priests. This is an abuse of economy...
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: SolEX01 on July 04, 2012, 11:10:35 PM
We don't need theological reasons to defend our church's traditions. They are there, but who cares what they are, we aren't going to change them. People who want to change them should either get out of the church or submit and accept them as they are.

Your logic resembles the logic of a Priest who wouldn't marry an Orthodox with a Catholic in the 1950's and 1960's, resulting in the loss of the family from the Orthodox Church.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 04, 2012, 11:11:11 PM
Being a Reader isn't simply the role of a "teacher" I don't see why you think that it is.

Because he/she is reading the words written by Paul or one of the Apostles who went and taught the entire world.

Women simply cannot be tonsured as Readers, that is a fact of our Church. It is just like the sub-deaconate, the deaconate, the priesthood and the episcopacy.

An example of economy is tonsuring a women, who chants, as a reader.  Some Orthodox Churches have female chanters; maybe your visits to traditional Orthodox lands have caused you to lose sight of the reality of the Orthodox Church as it currently exists in America.

They don't have females who are tonsured as chantors/readers because this is a role restricted to men. They may be blessed by the Priest to do so, but it should be an example of economy and not something that is "just done".

There has to be a good reason, and that reason should be the lack of anyone serving at the altar or a tonsured reader. Otherwise it is an abuse of economy.

Just face the facts, too many American parishes have subjected themselves to Protestant & American Catholic tendencies which are liturgical abuses that need to be corrected.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 04, 2012, 11:12:04 PM
We don't need theological reasons to defend our church's traditions. They are there, but who cares what they are, we aren't going to change them. People who want to change them should either get out of the church or submit and accept them as they are.

Your logic resembles the logic of a Priest who wouldn't marry an Orthodox with a Catholic in the 1950's and 1960's, resulting in the loss of the family from the Orthodox Church.

They shouldn't marry an Orthodox with a Roman Catholic (they aren't Catholic, we are) unless the Roman Catholic agrees to either convert or raise all of their children as Orthodox Christians and in the church with absolutely NO inter-communion. If the parents allow their kids to commune in a Roman Catholic Church, the parents ought to immediately be excommunicated.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 04, 2012, 11:13:29 PM
So you have an issue with female Parish Council members reading the Epistle - a common occurrence at most Orthodox Churches.  Or, you have an issue with female Sunday School students reading the Epistle, which occurs at some Orthodox Churches.

Yes actually I do, in the Churches I have attended, only men (and if a reader is available the reader) read the Epistle.

The ONLY reason this should be occurring and the ONLY reason anyone other than the Reader or someone in training as a Reader should be reading the Epistle is if readers are available and no men (who can chant well) are available.

This is another one of the things which our Bishop has warned against and that if possible, only Readers, and after that only Men should read the Epistle. Even little children shouldn't be reading the Epistle.

BTW, I've heard several women at the parishes I've attended support this and say that the only reason they have ever read is when their parish only had a few attendees and no baptized men who could chant were available.

This is an abuse the several jurisdictions, including the GOA is guilty of. Just because someone is "respected" in the community, or they are a "cute kid" doesn't mean they should be reading the Epistle. We trivialize the reading of the holy Epistle when we act like it is simply something that is just read by respected members of the community in church.
What theological reason do you have for arguing that only men be permitted to read the Epistle during the Liturgy?

The fact that the role is restricted to the role of the Reader (only males can be readers).

The only reason it can be otherwise is out of economy when a Reader is not present, and if a Reader is not present, someone who is in training to be a Reader should be the one to read the Epistle.
That's not a theological reason. I would appreciate even a citation of St. Paul's injunction that we not allow women to be in positions of authority over men, but what you've provided is nothing more than another repetition of, "this is simply the way we do things in the Church."

Peter, just quit trying to play the devil's advocate. If you truly are Orthodox and don't think altar girls should be permitted then you have absolutely no reason to question me.
I'm not playing devil's advocate, so please quit projecting that motive onto me. I merely want to know the foundation on which you build your opinions.

I'm sure you also are either ignoring or just didn't see reply number 127.
No, I've seen it, and I'm not ignoring it. It's just a bit more complicated to respond to than your other posts, and drafting a reply would take more time.

We don't need theological reasons to defend our church's traditions.
Actually, yes we do. "That's the way we've always done things" is just not a persuasive argument. Our Church is built on theology, not thoughtless repetition.

They are there, but who cares what they are, we aren't going to change them. People who want to change them should either get out of the church or submit and accept them as they are.
Knowledge of our reasons does not imply a desire to change. If anything, knowledge of our reasons will most often strengthen our desire to preserve our Tradition unchanged. After all, did not Jesus offer Himself to be touched by Thomas's hands in order to strengthen his faith? Was not St. Thomas afterward one of our strongest apostles precisely because of his personal experience of the risen Christ?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: SolEX01 on July 04, 2012, 11:15:00 PM

Yes, I do believe it is an abuse of economy... I have attended a mission parish which would occasionally have to have women read the epistle (though they would sometimes ask me to do so for them) because they didn't have anymore than a few people in attendance. Yet that same mission parish now has more members in attendance and only the baptized men read, and the women in the parish have vocally expressed their dislike for the practice of making it a regular rule of having laypeople (especially women and children) read the Epistle during Liturgy.

Why do you think the women of this parish have expressed a dislike that you describe?

I have seen a parish with 150 people in attendance have a female member of the parish read the Epistle (and they had allowed a young child in the congregation, not an altar boy read the epistle on another occasion). This same parish had about 10 kids (from very young to late adolescence) serving as altar boys. They also had 2-3 deacons serving and multiple Priests. This is an abuse of economy...

Sounds like a typical Orthodox Church to me.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 04, 2012, 11:15:39 PM
So you have an issue with female Parish Council members reading the Epistle - a common occurrence at most Orthodox Churches.  Or, you have an issue with female Sunday School students reading the Epistle, which occurs at some Orthodox Churches.

Yes actually I do, in the Churches I have attended, only men (and if a reader is available the reader) read the Epistle.

The ONLY reason this should be occurring and the ONLY reason anyone other than the Reader or someone in training as a Reader should be reading the Epistle is if readers are available and no men (who can chant well) are available.

This is another one of the things which our Bishop has warned against and that if possible, only Readers, and after that only Men should read the Epistle. Even little children shouldn't be reading the Epistle.

BTW, I've heard several women at the parishes I've attended support this and say that the only reason they have ever read is when their parish only had a few attendees and no baptized men who could chant were available.

This is an abuse the several jurisdictions, including the GOA is guilty of. Just because someone is "respected" in the community, or they are a "cute kid" doesn't mean they should be reading the Epistle. We trivialize the reading of the holy Epistle when we act like it is simply something that is just read by respected members of the community in church.
What theological reason do you have for arguing that only men be permitted to read the Epistle during the Liturgy?

The fact that the role is restricted to the role of the Reader (only males can be readers).

The only reason it can be otherwise is out of economy when a Reader is not present, and if a Reader is not present, someone who is in training to be a Reader should be the one to read the Epistle.
That's not a theological reason. I would appreciate even a citation of St. Paul's injunction that we not allow women to be in positions of authority over men, but what you've provided is nothing more than another repetition of, "this is simply the way we do things in the Church."

Peter, just quit trying to play the devil's advocate. If you truly are Orthodox and don't think altar girls should be permitted then you have absolutely no reason to question me.
I'm not playing devil's advocate, so please quit projecting that motive onto me. I merely want to know the foundation on which you build your opinions.

I'm sure you also are either ignoring or just didn't see reply number 127.
No, I've seen it, and I'm not ignoring it. It's just a bit more complicated to respond to than your other posts, and drafting a reply would take more time.

We don't need theological reasons to defend our church's traditions.
Actually, yes we do. "That's the way we've always done things" is just not a persuasive argument. Our Church is built on theology, not thoughtless repetition.

They are there, but who cares what they are, we aren't going to change them. People who want to change them should either get out of the church or submit and accept them as they are.
Knowledge of our reasons does not imply a desire to change. If anything, knowledge of our reasons will most often strengthen our desire to preserve our Tradition unchanged. After all, did not Jesus offer Himself to be touched by Thomas's hands in order to strengthen his faith? Was not St. Thomas afterward one of our strongest apostles precisely because of his personal experience of the risen Christ?

You ignore the fact that most people who question it do want to change the church's traditions. Just look at the heretics in Axios, or the heterodox people in the St. Nina's website.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 04, 2012, 11:17:16 PM
So you have an issue with female Parish Council members reading the Epistle - a common occurrence at most Orthodox Churches.  Or, you have an issue with female Sunday School students reading the Epistle, which occurs at some Orthodox Churches.

Yes actually I do, in the Churches I have attended, only men (and if a reader is available the reader) read the Epistle.

The ONLY reason this should be occurring and the ONLY reason anyone other than the Reader or someone in training as a Reader should be reading the Epistle is if readers are available and no men (who can chant well) are available.

This is another one of the things which our Bishop has warned against and that if possible, only Readers, and after that only Men should read the Epistle. Even little children shouldn't be reading the Epistle.

BTW, I've heard several women at the parishes I've attended support this and say that the only reason they have ever read is when their parish only had a few attendees and no baptized men who could chant were available.

This is an abuse the several jurisdictions, including the GOA is guilty of. Just because someone is "respected" in the community, or they are a "cute kid" doesn't mean they should be reading the Epistle. We trivialize the reading of the holy Epistle when we act like it is simply something that is just read by respected members of the community in church.
What theological reason do you have for arguing that only men be permitted to read the Epistle during the Liturgy?

The fact that the role is restricted to the role of the Reader (only males can be readers).

The only reason it can be otherwise is out of economy when a Reader is not present, and if a Reader is not present, someone who is in training to be a Reader should be the one to read the Epistle.
That's not a theological reason. I would appreciate even a citation of St. Paul's injunction that we not allow women to be in positions of authority over men, but what you've provided is nothing more than another repetition of, "this is simply the way we do things in the Church."

Peter, just quit trying to play the devil's advocate. If you truly are Orthodox and don't think altar girls should be permitted then you have absolutely no reason to question me.
I'm not playing devil's advocate, so please quit projecting that motive onto me. I merely want to know the foundation on which you build your opinions.

I'm sure you also are either ignoring or just didn't see reply number 127.
No, I've seen it, and I'm not ignoring it. It's just a bit more complicated to respond to than your other posts, and drafting a reply would take more time.

We don't need theological reasons to defend our church's traditions.
Actually, yes we do. "That's the way we've always done things" is just not a persuasive argument. Our Church is built on theology, not thoughtless repetition.

They are there, but who cares what they are, we aren't going to change them. People who want to change them should either get out of the church or submit and accept them as they are.
Knowledge of our reasons does not imply a desire to change. If anything, knowledge of our reasons will most often strengthen our desire to preserve our Tradition unchanged. After all, did not Jesus offer Himself to be touched by Thomas's hands in order to strengthen his faith? Was not St. Thomas afterward one of our strongest apostles precisely because of his personal experience of the risen Christ?

You ignore the fact that most people who question it do want to change the church's traditions. Just look at the heretics in Axios, or the heterodox people in the St. Nina's website.
Most of the people you've read? Don't you think you're making a hasty generalization here?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 04, 2012, 11:19:27 PM

Yes, I do believe it is an abuse of economy... I have attended a mission parish which would occasionally have to have women read the epistle (though they would sometimes ask me to do so for them) because they didn't have anymore than a few people in attendance. Yet that same mission parish now has more members in attendance and only the baptized men read, and the women in the parish have vocally expressed their dislike for the practice of making it a regular rule of having laypeople (especially women and children) read the Epistle during Liturgy.

Why do you think the women of this parish have expressed a dislike that you describe?

I have seen a parish with 150 people in attendance have a female member of the parish read the Epistle (and they had allowed a young child in the congregation, not an altar boy read the epistle on another occasion). This same parish had about 10 kids (from very young to late adolescence) serving as altar boys. They also had 2-3 deacons serving and multiple Priests. This is an abuse of economy...

Sounds like a typical Orthodox Church to me.

It definitely isn't a typical Orthodox Church, you need to go out and see more churches, especially in places where Orthodoxy has been there for 2000 years. Idiots shouldn't try to Americanize our church because we don't need Protestant heresies and ideas in our pure, undefiled church.

Also, these women are respectable, traditional Orthodox Christians. They actually wear and prefer to wear headcoverings, they refuse to handle the communion cloth if a male (and especially altar boys) are there. They are in the choirs of their churches, but they don't read the Epistle (nor do they desire to).

Why do they dislike it? Because they are Orthodox Christians who hold fast to the church's traditions instead of seeking to "modernize" it.

Feminists and misogynists have no place in our church.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: SolEX01 on July 04, 2012, 11:20:11 PM
We don't need theological reasons to defend our church's traditions. They are there, but who cares what they are, we aren't going to change them. People who want to change them should either get out of the church or submit and accept them as they are.

Your logic resembles the logic of a Priest who wouldn't marry an Orthodox with a Catholic in the 1950's and 1960's, resulting in the loss of the family from the Orthodox Church.

They shouldn't marry an Orthodox with a Roman Catholic (they aren't Catholic, we are) unless the Roman Catholic agrees to either convert or raise all of their children as Orthodox Christians and in the church with absolutely NO inter-communion. If the parents allow their kids to commune in a Roman Catholic Church, the parents ought to immediately be excommunicated.

You are practicing akriveia, which means exactness or being strict. I was commenting on your insistence of people to either submit to the Church or get out; do we always have the choice to get out especially if we don't agree or understanding Orthodox practice?  Do we have forum members who have "gotten out" of Orthodoxy on numerous occasions and "re-entered" Orthodoxy on those same numerous occasions?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 04, 2012, 11:24:47 PM
We don't need theological reasons to defend our church's traditions. They are there, but who cares what they are, we aren't going to change them. People who want to change them should either get out of the church or submit and accept them as they are.

Your logic resembles the logic of a Priest who wouldn't marry an Orthodox with a Catholic in the 1950's and 1960's, resulting in the loss of the family from the Orthodox Church.

They shouldn't marry an Orthodox with a Roman Catholic (they aren't Catholic, we are) unless the Roman Catholic agrees to either convert or raise all of their children as Orthodox Christians and in the church with absolutely NO inter-communion. If the parents allow their kids to commune in a Roman Catholic Church, the parents ought to immediately be excommunicated.

You are practicing akriveia, which means exactness or being strict. I was commenting on your insistence of people to either submit to the Church or get out; do we always have the choice to get out especially if we don't agree or understanding Orthodox practice?  Do we have forum members who have "gotten out" of Orthodoxy on numerous occasions and "re-entered" Orthodoxy on those same numerous occasions?

intercommunion is heresy and is personal excommunication, economy CANNOT be applied in such a case.

If an Orthodox seeks to marry a Roman Catholic, the Roman Catholic should either convert or agree to raise their children in the Orthodox Church.

If the family knowingly allows their children to receive communion in a heretical (IE Roman Catholic Church) they have deliberatly defied the Orthodox Church and have excommunicated themselves and should be formally excommunicated by the Priest. They have endangered the lives of their children and become apostates themselves. The Priest has a DUTY to refuse them communion.

If they leave the Church, then so be it, they shouldn't sit in the church and deceive it by endangering the souls of their children by allowing them to partake of the body and blood of Christ and then the food of the demons.

Another example, I know a man who is still upset at our Priests and late Bishop for refusing a funeral to his son who committed suicide. The simple fact is that suicides cannot receive Orthodox funerals, they can only receive a Trisagion at their grave (if that much). The man simply should have accepted the fact that while tragic, this is how it always has to be. His son committed a grave sin (even if it might have been in the midst of severe mental illness which it doesn't seem like it was) and our church doesn't allow Orthodox funerals for suicides. The man probably almost left the Church, but that was his own fault for doubting and questioning the Church. If he left, it was on his own soul not the fault of the Church or the Priests.

Another example, in the early Church, you were excommunicated if you had offered to the idols. There were some Christian's whose hands were seized and they were physically forced to offer to the idols. From what I've read in the canons and such, the Church still refused them communion for a period of time and required they be amongst the kneeling penetants in the narthex.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: SolEX01 on July 04, 2012, 11:29:37 PM
It definitely isn't a typical Orthodox Church, you need to go out and see more churches, especially in places where Orthodoxy has been there for 2000 years.

I've been to my mother's village church.  As a little boy, I went to the island of Tinos (where there's a Church dedicated to the Annunciation) and also visited the Monastery of Panagia Prousiotissa in Evrytania province.  I don't have to visit Athos to remain an Orthodox Christian.

Idiots shouldn't try to Americanize our church because we don't need Protestant heresies and ideas in our pure, undefiled church.

Christ knows that his Chuch is pure and undefiled.  We know we are sinners.  Should we just give up and apostasize?

Also, these women are respectable, traditional Orthodox Christians. They actually wear and prefer to wear headcoverings, they refuse to handle the communion cloth if a male (and especially altar boys) are there. They are in the choirs of their churches, but they don't read the Epistle (nor do they desire to).

Are they recent converts to Orthodoxy, like you are?

Why do they dislike it? Because they are Orthodox Christians who hold fast to the church's traditions instead of seeking to "modernize" it.

Feminists and misogynists have no place in our church.

The Church is a hospital for sinners....
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 04, 2012, 11:32:14 PM
It definitely isn't a typical Orthodox Church, you need to go out and see more churches, especially in places where Orthodoxy has been there for 2000 years.

I've been to my mother's village church.  As a little boy, I went to the island of Tinos (where there's a Church dedicated to the Annunciation) and also visited the Monastery of Panagia Prousiotissa in Evrytania province.  I don't have to visit Athos to remain an Orthodox Christian.

Idiots shouldn't try to Americanize our church because we don't need Protestant heresies and ideas in our pure, undefiled church.

Christ knows that his Chuch is pure and undefiled.  We know we are sinners.  Should we just give up and apostasize?

Also, these women are respectable, traditional Orthodox Christians. They actually wear and prefer to wear headcoverings, they refuse to handle the communion cloth if a male (and especially altar boys) are there. They are in the choirs of their churches, but they don't read the Epistle (nor do they desire to).

Are they recent converts to Orthodoxy, like you are?

Why do they dislike it? Because they are Orthodox Christians who hold fast to the church's traditions instead of seeking to "modernize" it.

Feminists and misogynists have no place in our church.

The Church is a hospital for sinners....

They aren't recent converts.

Also, I haven't ever been to Mount Athos...

If you willingly disagree with the church, you have ALREADY committed a form of apostasy and shouldn't receive communion until you confess it and repent. This is one of the reasons why this specific question is often asked in confession.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: SolEX01 on July 04, 2012, 11:38:44 PM
intercommunion is heresy and is personal excommunication, economy CANNOT be applied in such a case.

There's Confession and penance (if necessary).

If an Orthodox seeks to marry a Roman Catholic, the Roman Catholic should either convert or agree to raise their children in the Orthodox Church.

If the family knowingly allows their children to receive communion in a heretical (IE Roman Catholic Church) they have deliberatly defied the Orthodox Church and have excommunicated themselves and should be formally excommunicated by the Priest. They have endangered the lives of their children and become apostates themselves. The Priest has a DUTY to refuse them communion.

If they leave the Church, then so be it, they shouldn't sit in the church and deceive it by endangering the souls of their children by allowing them to partake of the body and blood of Christ and then the food of the demons.

Things happen.  Who are we to judge?

Another example, I know a man who is still upset at our Priests and late Bishop for refusing a funeral to his son who committed suicide. The simple fact is that suicides cannot receive Orthodox funerals, they can only receive a Trisagion at their grave (if that much). The man simply should have accepted the fact that while tragic, this is how it always has to be. His son committed a grave sin (even if it might have been in the midst of severe mental illness which it doesn't seem like it was) and our church doesn't allow Orthodox funerals for suicides. The man probably almost left the Church, but that was his own fault for doubting and questioning the Church. If he left, it was on his own soul not the fault of the Church or the Priests.

If the Priest knew that the person was troubled and has medical evidence, a funeral can be performed for suicides.

Another example, in the early Church, you were excommunicated if you had offered to the idols. There were some Christian's whose hands were seized and they were physically forced to offer to the idols. From what I've read in the canons and such, the Church still refused them communion for a period of time and required they be amongst the kneeling penetants in the narthex.

Is it practical in modern society to have kneeling penitents in the narthex?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 04, 2012, 11:38:55 PM
Can you answer me why it is that those who are in our church and espousing liberal views are composed of mostly cradles? (obviously I'm not saying all cradles are like this?)

I've talked to a woman who favored women's ordination to the Priesthood. She was a cradle...
I've talked to a man who disagrees with closed communion and thinks we should commune all Christians. He was a cradle...
I've talked to another woman who favored homosexual marriage in the church. She was a cradle...
I've talked to another man who thought he was qualified to serve the Liturgy because he had "seen it his whole life" and could "do just a good a job as the Priest"... He was a cradle...
I've talked to yet another woman who wanted to dress up like a man and sneak onto Mount Athos to shamelessly defy the ban on females there. She was a cradle...
I've talked to yet another man who wanted me to question our church's stance against ecumenism (inter-communion and con-celebration) and the Roman Catholic Church. He was a cradle...

Explain that to me, and why we should tolerate such people who openly defy and disagree with our church (with absolutely no regrets). Explain to my why I haven't encountered converts (and I'm talking baptized Orthodox converts) who feel this way?

You know, there is a reason we only have about 800,000-900,000 Orthodox Christians in North America. We cannot count the "baptized" who never attend church more than every few years, they simply aren't Orthodox Christians. That is why we don't have several million Orthodox in the United States, we don't even have a million.

I would rather we remain a smaller church with traditionally minded people or people willing to become traditionally minded rather than a bigger church with liberal, "progressive" minded people who openly disagree with the church without shame.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: augustin717 on July 04, 2012, 11:44:50 PM
Just to correct some of Devin's illusions: little kids (like 10, 11, 12 etc0 reading the Apostle has been common practice in the Romanian Church (girls too, on occasion) . I imagine it happens in many other churches. So much for the  new bishop of Chicago (OCA) outlawing that.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: SolEX01 on July 04, 2012, 11:46:03 PM
Can you answer me why it is that those who are in our church and espousing liberal views are composed of mostly cradles? (obviously I'm not saying all cradles are like this?)

I've talked to a woman who favored women's ordination to the Priesthood. She was a cradle...
I've talked to a man who disagrees with closed communion and thinks we should commune all Christians. He was a cradle...
I've talked to another woman who favored homosexual marriage in the church. She was a cradle...

Explain that to me, and why we should tolerate such people who openly defy and disagree with our church (with absolutely no regrets). Explain to my why I haven't encountered converts (and I'm talking baptized Orthodox converts) who feel this way?

Did you ask these people, Why?   ???

I get those questions as well.  I have answers and they begin with the Gospel.  Some people don't like the truth; however, we will find out on Judgment Day what is truth and what is everything else.  Sometimes, it is no use arguing with a person who's "set in their ways" because their heart is hardened; they want to believe and their belief system won't allow them to accept the Gospel into their heart.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 04, 2012, 11:47:09 PM
Just to correct some of Devin's illusions: little kids (like 10, 11, 12 etc0 reading the Apostle has been common practice in the Romanian Church (girls too, on occasion) . I imagine it happens in many other churches. So much for the  new bishop of Chicago (OCA) outlawing that.


Did I say all of the "Old World" churches? Besides, you don't even agree with the church anyway, so why should we trust what you say.

2.5 million Romanians aren't even Orthodox, I wouldn't trust anything that comes out of parts of central Romania and far northwestern Romania.

Romania needs to just kick out the non-Orthodox to the nations which are predominantly Roman Catholic like Hungary and Slovakia.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: augustin717 on July 04, 2012, 11:51:03 PM
Just to correct some of Devin's illusions: little kids (like 10, 11, 12 etc0 reading the Apostle has been common practice in the Romanian Church (girls too, on occasion) . I imagine it happens in many other churches. So much for the  new bishop of Chicago (OCA) outlawing that.


Did I say all of the "Old World" churches? Besides, you don't even agree with the church anyway, so why should we trust what you say.

2.5 million Romanians are heretics anyway, I wouldn't trust anything that comes out of parts of central Romania and far northwestern Romania.
I think I have a better grasp on some things than you have.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: augustin717 on July 04, 2012, 11:52:29 PM
Just to correct some of Devin's illusions: little kids (like 10, 11, 12 etc0 reading the Apostle has been common practice in the Romanian Church (girls too, on occasion) . I imagine it happens in many other churches. So much for the  new bishop of Chicago (OCA) outlawing that.


Did I say all of the "Old World" churches? Besides, you don't even agree with the church anyway, so why should we trust what you say.

2.5 million Romanians aren't even Orthodox, I wouldn't trust anything that comes out of parts of central Romania and far northwestern Romania.
Those are the ethnic Hungarians living there mostly, you silly. You have no idea.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: augustin717 on July 04, 2012, 11:54:19 PM
Quote
Romania needs to just kick out the non-Orthodox to the nations which are predominantly Roman Catholic like Hungary and Slovakia.
This is insane.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 04, 2012, 11:54:30 PM
Just to correct some of Devin's illusions: little kids (like 10, 11, 12 etc0 reading the Apostle has been common practice in the Romanian Church (girls too, on occasion) . I imagine it happens in many other churches. So much for the  new bishop of Chicago (OCA) outlawing that.


Did I say all of the "Old World" churches? Besides, you don't even agree with the church anyway, so why should we trust what you say.

2.5 million Romanians are heretics anyway, I wouldn't trust anything that comes out of parts of central Romania and far northwestern Romania.
I think I have a better grasp on some things than you have.

hmm... Like I said, I don't trust anything from anyone that comes from areas in Romania like Harghita, Covasna, Mures, Satu Mare, Bihor and Maramures. I would be skeptical of anything from anywhere in Romania where they live amongst a lot of non-Orthodox.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: LizaSymonenko on July 04, 2012, 11:54:58 PM
Okay, so here's how I see it.

Women, including young girls, have no place in the Altar.  From old this was the case, and this is why it was so extraordinary that the Theotokos was allowed in to the Holy of Holies (a place where the priest (always a male) only entered but once a year).

Why?  Well, there are many reasons mentioned in the OT and the NT.  To me personally, the most poignant lesson that women are not to enter the Altar, which is reserved for the clergy, is Christ choosing men to be His disciples, and therefore bishops, priest, etc.  He picked 12 men, and not a single woman.  Why did He do that?  Who knows?  I also don't know why God created mosquitoes, but He did.  I'm sure He knows best and has a reason for all He has done.

That's one reason.  Another might be that women have their monthly cycles, but, we won't go there because that has been covered ad nauseam.

What about when she's a mother....who will watch her children when she's busy in the altar?  I can't picture daycare behind the iconostasis.

Finally, on a completely non-theological note....I don't care what you say, girls love to flirt.  With the odd exception, they will fluff their hair, redden their cheeks, elongate their lashes and giggle when a boy comes within sight.  Boys love to flirt with girls, as well.  Isn't it bad enough that the boys spill the wine, almost set the church on fire when lighting the censor, etc.....without the added burden of having to smile and impress girls at the same time.

Mt. Athos is forbidden to women, and we should respect that.  Granted in emergencies women have been permitted on the island, and in emergencies with permission, women have been allowed in the altar.  Women have a million places they "can" be and a million things they "can" be doing....we don't "need" to do everything and go everywhere.   ....and yet we have those who complain about this restriction...that the monks need to be strong enough to handle seeing a woman, etc.  Who says they aren't....but, it's an unnecessary distraction.  Why make them feel uncomfortable?  Isn't that why women often go to female exclusive gyms?  So that they don't worry about what is showing or bouncing, and that some guy is eyeing them?  What's wrong with the sexes being segregated if they wish to be?  Not everything needs to be equalized.  

As for the women keeping quiet, not teaching and not reading in church, etc....which is mentioned in the Scriptures....these things have changed with the times.  Women were forbidden to speak, but, women also didn't work, nor vote.  Now we do, and our roles and responsibilities have changed in the life of the Church.  

The "silence" portion wasn't even completely true in the time of the Apostles, as many women went out and preached from the get go....and many found favor in the eyes of God for their preaching.  

Therefore, having women read the Epistle, serve on the church council and act as Sunday School teachers is the norm.  It's rare to find a man who is even interested in filling the role of Sunday School teacher, and therefore, the women have taken it on, as it's better to have a woman teach your children, then let them out in the world with no knowledge of their Faith.

As for the reading of the Epistle, I have seen both women and children read it...and it didn't upset me. As the norm, it's the reader, or another man.  However, I don't honestly see anything wrong with women or teens reading.  They are not entering the Altar, they are simply reading within the Nave.  I've seen one teenage boy read the Epistle in Ukrainian, and a teenage girl read the same one in English after he had finished.  They read beautifully....even better than the man who usually reads...who yells so loud, one can't even understand what is being said.

As long as they are not being disrespectful, and are not in the Altar, I don't see the harm with older children taking an active role in the services.

“Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these."  Mark 10:14

In my parish, men have ruled for 65 years!  Women played no role whatsoever.  How disheartening to be a woman in such a situation.  The men held the candles, the men got to carry the banners, the icons, the......you name it.  Why?  You know there are women in the parish who are by far more faithful and yet they can't even carry an icon.  Why?

A few years back I saw other churches where women got to carry the banners out of the church when greeting a bishop.  Wow, I thought. Really?  So, at Pascha I asked my priest if he would mind...and he said he saw no issues with women carrying things outside the Altar.  So there I was....the first woman in the history of my parish to carry the banner of the Theotokos around the church on Pascha!  When I gathered in the center of the nave with the men, you could hear the whispers....and then I glanced at the choir which had gathered near the door, waiting to exit and sing....and the women were all giving me a thumbs up.

Why shouldn't I carry the banner?  :)  I have carried ever since....and to be honest....I only carry it out of principle...because that thing is HEAVY!!!!  Oh my gosh!!!!  I can't wait for the end of the third time around....and then climb the steps....man!  I don't know how the guys do it....I can hardly keep it balanced!  :D

Let's not forget the Incarnation only occurred due to a woman.  Women are not disliked or discarded in the Church.  We simply have different roles from men.  Jobs need to be delegated to different individuals, otherwise, everyone would squabble over one duty, while completely neglecting another.

There are plenty of things for women to do in the Church.  Even kitchen duty is an honor.  We get to feed our people.  We get to teach the kids.  We get to keep peace in our families.  We nurture, we love, we clean, we make this world a better place.

Leave the altar to the men.  They have little enough to do otherwise.  :)


Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: augustin717 on July 04, 2012, 11:59:45 PM
Just to correct some of Devin's illusions: little kids (like 10, 11, 12 etc0 reading the Apostle has been common practice in the Romanian Church (girls too, on occasion) . I imagine it happens in many other churches. So much for the  new bishop of Chicago (OCA) outlawing that.


Did I say all of the "Old World" churches? Besides, you don't even agree with the church anyway, so why should we trust what you say.

2.5 million Romanians are heretics anyway, I wouldn't trust anything that comes out of parts of central Romania and far northwestern Romania.
I think I have a better grasp on some things than you have.

hmm... Like I said, I don't trust anything from anyone that comes from areas in Romania like Harghita, Covasna, Mures, Satu Mare, Bihor and Maramures. I would be skeptical of anything from anywhere in Romania where they live amongst a lot of non-Orthodox.
And we should trust you in Missouri, if the percentage of Orthodox is the criterion. The percentage of Orthodox in Bihor somewhere between 70%- to 80%. What is it again, in Missouri. You just keep shooting yourself in the foot.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 05, 2012, 12:01:51 AM
Just to correct some of Devin's illusions: little kids (like 10, 11, 12 etc0 reading the Apostle has been common practice in the Romanian Church (girls too, on occasion) . I imagine it happens in many other churches. So much for the  new bishop of Chicago (OCA) outlawing that.


Did I say all of the "Old World" churches? Besides, you don't even agree with the church anyway, so why should we trust what you say.

2.5 million Romanians are heretics anyway, I wouldn't trust anything that comes out of parts of central Romania and far northwestern Romania.
I think I have a better grasp on some things than you have.

hmm... Like I said, I don't trust anything from anyone that comes from areas in Romania like Harghita, Covasna, Mures, Satu Mare, Bihor and Maramures. I would be skeptical of anything from anywhere in Romania where they live amongst a lot of non-Orthodox.
And we should trust you in Missouri, if the percentage of Orthodox is the criterion. The percentage of Orthodox in Bihor somewhere between 70%- to 80%. What is it again, in Missouri. You just keep shooting yourself in the foot.

I think this is one of the reasons we have so many abuses in American parishes including in my home state... Look at Greece where pretty much all the provinces are 98% Orthodox.

I never saw any of these abuses (save for chairs and westernized iconography which is being replaced and stopped).
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Ionnis on July 05, 2012, 12:02:43 AM
A lovely post, Liza!  Thank you.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 05, 2012, 12:07:26 AM
All I have to say, is that if our Church ever officially allows gay marriage, female Priesthood or altar girls (serving at the altar), that would pretty much signal the end of my adherence to Christianity. Thankfully that will never, ever happen because the Church is pure and without change.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: augustin717 on July 05, 2012, 12:10:15 AM
All I have to say, is that if our Church ever officially allows gay marriage, female Priesthood or altar girls (serving at the altar), that would pretty much signal the end of my adherence to Christianity. Thankfully that will never, ever happen because the Church is pure and without change.
good grief ??? ::) your adherence to Christianity is already you know, fringey and plainly reactionary plus suffering from melancholy romanticism .
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Shiny on July 05, 2012, 12:11:01 AM
All I have to say, is that if our Church ever officially allows gay marriage, female Priesthood or altar girls (serving at the altar), that would pretty much signal the end of my adherence to Christianity. Thankfully that will never, ever happen because the Church is pure and without change.
Well I too would not be a member of the Orthodox Church if that ever happened.

But wow, Liza, excellent post.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 05, 2012, 12:12:01 AM
All I have to say, is that if our Church ever officially allows gay marriage, female Priesthood or altar girls (serving at the altar), that would pretty much signal the end of my adherence to Christianity. Thankfully that will never, ever happen because the Church is pure and without change.
good grief ??? ::)

I guarantee it would signal the exit of millions of Orthodox Christians. (if it were made official by a truly pan-Orthodox council and accepted by many laypeople, monastics and Priests/Clergy)
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: NicholasMyra on July 05, 2012, 12:19:56 AM
To paraphrase St. Constantine, "Fashion a ladder, Devin, and climb your own way into heaven."

Comparing gay marriage and women priests to deaconesses and altar girls, and insulting everyone who disagrees with you outside of the pure cathari donatist church you see yourself as a part of, including large swathes of the country of Romania? You need to take a massive, massive chill pill.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Shiny on July 05, 2012, 12:21:08 AM
What is a cathari donatist church?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 05, 2012, 12:23:00 AM
To paraphrase St. Constantine, "Fashion a ladder, Devin, and climb your own way into heaven."

Comparing gay marriage and women priests to deaconesses and altar girls, and insulting everyone who disagrees with you outside of the pure cathari donatist church you see yourself as a part of, including large swathes of the country of Romania? You need to take a massive, massive chill pill.

Woah, I've not questioned the role of deaconesses. That has been in our church since before Nicaea.

As for those "swathes of Romania' if you did your research, those regions I mentioned are those with huge percentages of Roman Catholics and Protestants rather than Orthodox Christians. They should be deported from Romania to the countries where they belong, like Hungary and Slovakia.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 05, 2012, 12:24:06 AM
All I have to say, is that if our Church ever officially allows gay marriage, female Priesthood or altar girls (serving at the altar), that would pretty much signal the end of my adherence to Christianity. Thankfully that will never, ever happen because the Church is pure and without change.
good grief ??? ::) your adherence to Christianity is already you know, fringey and plainly reactionary plus suffering from melancholy romanticism .
Despite all the bad things I've said about you, and to your face (as much as is possible on this forum), on this I actually find myself agreeing with you.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: NicholasMyra on July 05, 2012, 12:28:23 AM

Woah, I've not questioned the role of deaconesses. That has been in our church since before Nicaea.
Fair enough, although it appears you question their role as actual deacons vs. the revisionist "they just helped women and weren't ordained or 'special' tonsured" position. But that's a battle for another day involving mystery vs. sacrament and all that jazz.

[Roman Catholics] should be deported from Romania to the countries where they belong, like Hungary and Slovakia.
Rome fell centuries ago. 1204 by my count, probably 1453 by yours. Not-so-holy Russia is finished.

It's over. We don't use state religion to treat our fellow human beings like ideological cattle anymore.

Since it's a special day, let me quote something a few scholastic, heretical deist freemasons once wrote: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness..."
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 05, 2012, 12:28:39 AM
All I have to say, is that if our Church ever officially allows gay marriage, female Priesthood or altar girls (serving at the altar), that would pretty much signal the end of my adherence to Christianity. Thankfully that will never, ever happen because the Church is pure and without change.
good grief ??? ::) your adherence to Christianity is already you know, fringey and plainly reactionary plus suffering from melancholy romanticism .
Despite all the bad things I've said about you, and to your face (as much as is possible on this forum), on this I actually find myself agreeing with you.

I made a decision when I became Orthodox that if the Orthodox Church wasn't the true Church then such a Church doesn't exist and therefore God doesn't exist, and I might as well become an atheist if the Orthodox Church ever did something like the Anglican or Roman Catholic Churches have done.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Shiny on July 05, 2012, 12:31:25 AM
All I have to say, is that if our Church ever officially allows gay marriage, female Priesthood or altar girls (serving at the altar), that would pretty much signal the end of my adherence to Christianity. Thankfully that will never, ever happen because the Church is pure and without change.
good grief ??? ::) your adherence to Christianity is already you know, fringey and plainly reactionary plus suffering from melancholy romanticism .
Despite all the bad things I've said about you, and to your face (as much as is possible on this forum), on this I actually find myself agreeing with you.

I made a decision when I became Orthodox that if the Orthodox Church wasn't the true Church then such a Church doesn't exist and therefore God doesn't exist, and I might as well become an atheist if the Orthodox Church ever did something like the Anglican or Roman Catholic Churches have done.
Dude seriously never stop posting. Please.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 05, 2012, 12:31:41 AM
To paraphrase St. Constantine, "Fashion a ladder, Devin, and climb your own way into heaven."

Comparing gay marriage and women priests to deaconesses and altar girls, and insulting everyone who disagrees with you outside of the pure cathari donatist church you see yourself as a part of, including large swathes of the country of Romania? You need to take a massive, massive chill pill.

Woah, I've not questioned the role of deaconesses. That has been in our church since before Nicaea.
So what? You have, however, equated altar girls with women priests and gay marriage. There's just no way you can make that equation without making yourself look like an idiot.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 05, 2012, 12:35:44 AM

Woah, I've not questioned the role of deaconesses. That has been in our church since before Nicaea.
Fair enough, although it appears you question their role as actual deacons vs. the revisionist "they just helped women and weren't ordained or special tonsured" position. But that's a battle for another day.

They should be deported from Romania to the countries where they belong, like Hungary and Slovakia.
Rome fell centuries ago. 1204 by my count, probably 1453 by yours. Not-so-holy Russia is finished.

It's over.
Orthodox nations aren't "over". It has only been 95 years since the fall of the Russian Empire and 559 since the fall of the Roman Empire. You have a very short memory and assume too much. Things change fast, just 100 years ago, Greece was on the verge of recapturing Constantinople.  Empires have been rising and falling for nearly 10,000 years and it hasn't stopped and won't stop now. The Roman Empire existed in exile for 57 years before it recaptured Constantinople. We've had Orthodox nations for almost 2000 years now, even if they aren't Empires. It isn't going to end just because of "modernism".

With that aside, the official allowance of altar girls would be an apostasy by the Orthodox Church and just like gay marriage and the female Priesthood, would signal the fact that there is no true Church and therefore Christ was wrong, and therefore God cannot exist.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: SolEX01 on July 05, 2012, 12:38:23 AM

Woah, I've not questioned the role of deaconesses. That has been in our church since before Nicaea.
Fair enough, although it appears you question their role as actual deacons vs. the revisionist "they just helped women and weren't ordained or special tonsured" position. But that's a battle for another day.

They should be deported from Romania to the countries where they belong, like Hungary and Slovakia.
Rome fell centuries ago. 1204 by my count, probably 1453 by yours. Not-so-holy Russia is finished.

It's over.
Orthodox nations aren't "over". It has only been 95 years since the fall of the Russian Empire and 559 since the fall of the Roman Empire. You have a very short memory and assume too much. Things change fast, just 100 years ago, Greece was on the verge of recapturing Constantinople.

Empires have been rising and falling for nearly 10,000 years and it hasn't stopped and won't stop now. The Roman Empire existed in exile for 57 years before it recaptured Constantinople.

We've had Orthodox nations for almost 2000 years now, even if they aren't Empires. It isn't going to end just because of "modernism".

With that aside, the official allowance of altar girls would be an apostasy by the Orthodox Church.

We've discussed this before; No Orthodox Empire is going to rise from any modern nation.  There was Rome, Byzantines and Moscow - 3 Romes.  If there's a 4th or even a 5th Rome, it won't be Orthodox.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: SolEX01 on July 05, 2012, 12:40:12 AM
With that aside, the official allowance of altar girls would be an apostasy by the Orthodox Church and just like gay marriage and the female Priesthood, would signal the fact that there is no true Church and therefore Christ was wrong, and therefore God cannot exist.

That's wrong.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: NicholasMyra on July 05, 2012, 12:40:36 AM
With that aside, the official allowance of altar girls would be an apostasy by the Orthodox Church and just like gay marriage and the female Priesthood, would signal the fact that there is no true Church and therefore Christ was wrong, and therefore God cannot exist.

So either your understanding of how women should relate to the altar is true, or God does not exist.

Bro, read that back to yourself for a minute.

Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Shiny on July 05, 2012, 12:41:01 AM
With that aside, the official allowance of altar girls would be an apostasy by the Orthodox Church and just like gay marriage and the female Priesthood, would signal the fact that there is no true Church and therefore Christ was wrong, and therefore God cannot exist.
The greatest chain of logic I have ever seen.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 05, 2012, 12:41:27 AM

Woah, I've not questioned the role of deaconesses. That has been in our church since before Nicaea.
Fair enough, although it appears you question their role as actual deacons vs. the revisionist "they just helped women and weren't ordained or special tonsured" position. But that's a battle for another day.

They should be deported from Romania to the countries where they belong, like Hungary and Slovakia.
Rome fell centuries ago. 1204 by my count, probably 1453 by yours. Not-so-holy Russia is finished.

It's over.
Orthodox nations aren't "over". It has only been 95 years since the fall of the Russian Empire and 559 since the fall of the Roman Empire. You have a very short memory and assume too much. Things change fast, just 100 years ago, Greece was on the verge of recapturing Constantinople.

Empires have been rising and falling for nearly 10,000 years and it hasn't stopped and won't stop now. The Roman Empire existed in exile for 57 years before it recaptured Constantinople.

We've had Orthodox nations for almost 2000 years now, even if they aren't Empires. It isn't going to end just because of "modernism".

With that aside, the official allowance of altar girls would be an apostasy by the Orthodox Church.

We've discussed this before; No Orthodox Empire is going to rise from any modern nation.  There was Rome, Byzantines and Moscow - 3 Romes.  If there's a 4th or even a 5th Rome, it won't be Orthodox.

Did I ever say the Roman Empire or "Rome" would be resurrected, or that there would be a fourth? Do you forget about the many other Orthodox nations throughout history? How about the very first Orthodox nations (even before the Roman)? There are many Orthodox nations today, all they need is a step away from secularism and towards Orthodoxy.

Why are we discussing this here anyway?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 05, 2012, 12:45:50 AM
With that aside, the official allowance of altar girls would be an apostasy by the Orthodox Church and just like gay marriage and the female Priesthood, would signal the fact that there is no true Church and therefore Christ was wrong, and therefore God cannot exist.

So either your understanding of how women should relate to the altar is true, or God does not exist.

Bro, read that back to yourself for a minute.



Our assumptions:

1. God exists
2. Morality is based upon the creation God has made and the natural way things should be.
3. Christ is God.
4. Christ promised the Church would never fall to Satan (aka heresy, schism, change etc...)
5. The Orthodox Church is the One, True and Only Church
6. The Church cannot teach error, promote heretical innovations or changes.

If altar girls serving at the altar, homosexual marriage or female priests are allowed, then that automatically cancels out #6. If #6 isn't true, then #5 cannot be true, if #5 isn't true, then #4 isn't true. If #4 isn't true, then #3 isn't true. If #3 isn't true then #2 isn't true and if #2 isn't true, #1 isn't true.

Therefore, if we allow ideas which the Church has always held as either heterodoxy, heresy or wrong, then ultimately God does not and cannot exist.

It's a house of cards, once one fails, it all fails, including the base.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Shiny on July 05, 2012, 12:49:11 AM
lol is this real life
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: SolEX01 on July 05, 2012, 12:50:04 AM

Woah, I've not questioned the role of deaconesses. That has been in our church since before Nicaea.
Fair enough, although it appears you question their role as actual deacons vs. the revisionist "they just helped women and weren't ordained or special tonsured" position. But that's a battle for another day.

They should be deported from Romania to the countries where they belong, like Hungary and Slovakia.
Rome fell centuries ago. 1204 by my count, probably 1453 by yours. Not-so-holy Russia is finished.

It's over.
Orthodox nations aren't "over". It has only been 95 years since the fall of the Russian Empire and 559 since the fall of the Roman Empire. You have a very short memory and assume too much. Things change fast, just 100 years ago, Greece was on the verge of recapturing Constantinople.

Empires have been rising and falling for nearly 10,000 years and it hasn't stopped and won't stop now. The Roman Empire existed in exile for 57 years before it recaptured Constantinople.

We've had Orthodox nations for almost 2000 years now, even if they aren't Empires. It isn't going to end just because of "modernism".

With that aside, the official allowance of altar girls would be an apostasy by the Orthodox Church.

We've discussed this before; No Orthodox Empire is going to rise from any modern nation.  There was Rome, Byzantines and Moscow - 3 Romes.  If there's a 4th or even a 5th Rome, it won't be Orthodox.

Did I ever say the Roman Empire or "Rome" would be resurrected, or that there would be a fourth? Do you forget about the many other Orthodox nations throughout history? How about the very first Orthodox nations (even before the Roman)? There are many Orthodox nations today, all they need is a step away from secularism and towards Orthodoxy.

Why are we discussing this here anyway?

You brought up the history of Orthodox Empires.  You're saying that the allowance of altar girls is apostasy and you will become an atheist as a consequence.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: SolEX01 on July 05, 2012, 12:57:14 AM
With that aside, the official allowance of altar girls would be an apostasy by the Orthodox Church and just like gay marriage and the female Priesthood, would signal the fact that there is no true Church and therefore Christ was wrong, and therefore God cannot exist.

So either your understanding of how women should relate to the altar is true, or God does not exist.

Bro, read that back to yourself for a minute.



Our assumptions:

1. God exists
2. Morality is based upon the creation God has made and the natural way things should be.
3. Christ is God.
4. Christ promised the Church would never fall to Satan (aka heresy, schism, change etc...)
5. The Orthodox Church is the One, True and Only Church
6. The Church cannot teach error, promote heretical innovations or changes.

Bishops have taught error and promoted heretical innovations and changes.  Other Bishops will (or have already) inquire about what is going on in Jacksonville, FL.  We don't know what is going on - maybe the picture is old and the Church has discontinued female participation in the acolyte ministry.  If I went to Jacksonville, I would ask why are girls serving as altar servers and what precedent exists for women to serve in the altar (I wouldn't accept the Theotokos being in the Holy of Holies since that foreshadows the Annunciation and not women serving in the role of the Aaronic priesthood).  Simple questions would be asked with hopefully simple answers.

If altar girls serving at the altar, homosexual marriage or female priests are allowed, then that automatically cancels out #6. If #6 isn't true, then #5 cannot be true, if #5 isn't true, then #4 isn't true. If #4 isn't true, then #3 isn't true. If #3 isn't true then #2 isn't true and if #2 isn't true, #1 isn't true.

Therefore, if we allow ideas which the Church has always held as either heterodoxy, heresy or wrong, then ultimately God does not and cannot exist.

It's a house of cards, once one fails, it all fails, including the base.

I crossed off #6, hence, you have no house of cards.   ;)
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 05, 2012, 12:59:34 AM
With that aside, the official allowance of altar girls would be an apostasy by the Orthodox Church and just like gay marriage and the female Priesthood, would signal the fact that there is no true Church and therefore Christ was wrong, and therefore God cannot exist.

So either your understanding of how women should relate to the altar is true, or God does not exist.

Bro, read that back to yourself for a minute.



Our assumptions:

1. God exists
2. Morality is based upon the creation God has made and the natural way things should be.
3. Christ is God.
4. Christ promised the Church would never fall to Satan (aka heresy, schism, change etc...)
5. The Orthodox Church is the One, True and Only Church
6. The Church cannot teach error, promote heretical innovations or changes.

Bishops have taught error and promoted heretical innovations and changes.  Other Bishops will (or have already) inquire about what is going on in Jacksonville, FL.  We don't know what is going on - maybe the picture is old and the Church has discontinued female participation in the acolyte ministry.  If I went to Jacksonville, I would ask why are girls serving as altar servers and what precedent exists for women to serve in the altar (I wouldn't accept the Theotokos being in the Holy of Holies since that foreshadows the Annunciation and not women serving in the role of the Aaronic priesthood).  Simple questions would be asked with hopefully simple answers.

If altar girls serving at the altar, homosexual marriage or female priests are allowed, then that automatically cancels out #6. If #6 isn't true, then #5 cannot be true, if #5 isn't true, then #4 isn't true. If #4 isn't true, then #3 isn't true. If #3 isn't true then #2 isn't true and if #2 isn't true, #1 isn't true.

Therefore, if we allow ideas which the Church has always held as either heterodoxy, heresy or wrong, then ultimately God does not and cannot exist.

It's a house of cards, once one fails, it all fails, including the base.

I crossed off #6, hence, you have no house of cards.   ;)

Actually you mistake Bishops and Priests for the Church as a whole. The Church cannot, has not and will not ever teach heterodoxy, heresy and will never be subject to changes, innovations and schisms.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: SolEX01 on July 05, 2012, 01:06:51 AM
Actually you mistake Bishops and Priests for the Church as a whole. The Church cannot, has not and will not ever teach heterodoxy, heresy and will never be subject to changes, innovations and schisms.

I don't mistake Bishops and Priests for the Church.  There are consequences if a Priest and/or Bishop teach heterodoxy.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 05, 2012, 01:10:44 AM
Actually you mistake Bishops and Priests for the Church as a whole. The Church cannot, has not and will not ever teach heterodoxy, heresy and will never be subject to changes, innovations and schisms.

I don't mistake Bishops and Priests for the Church.  There are consequences if a Priest and/or Bishop teach heterodoxy.

Yes, and therefore you must believe that the Church cannot ever teach heresy, heterodoxy, promote innovation/change and be subject to schism. The heretics throughout history were members of the church, not the Church itself.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 05, 2012, 01:28:36 AM
With that aside, the official allowance of altar girls would be an apostasy by the Orthodox Church and just like gay marriage and the female Priesthood, would signal the fact that there is no true Church and therefore Christ was wrong, and therefore God cannot exist.

So either your understanding of how women should relate to the altar is true, or God does not exist.

Bro, read that back to yourself for a minute.



Our assumptions:

1. God exists
2. Morality is based upon the creation God has made and the natural way things should be.
3. Christ is God.
4. Christ promised the Church would never fall to Satan (aka heresy, schism, change etc...)
5. The Orthodox Church is the One, True and Only Church
6. The Church cannot teach error, promote heretical innovations or changes.
You have yet to show how having altar girls is heretical.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 05, 2012, 01:29:03 AM
lol is this real life
Or is this just fantasy?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Tallitot on July 05, 2012, 01:43:04 AM
lol is this real life
Or is this just fantasy?

Caught in a landslide.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 05, 2012, 01:45:49 AM
lol is this real life
Or is this just fantasy?

Caught in a landslide.
No escape from reality
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Severian on July 05, 2012, 02:05:43 AM
lol is this real life
Or is this just fantasy?

Caught in a landslide.
No escape from reality
Open your eyes!
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Maria on July 05, 2012, 02:10:54 AM
Lord have mercy.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 05, 2012, 02:12:31 AM
lol is this real life
Or is this just fantasy?

Caught in a landslide.
No escape from reality
Open your eyes!
Look up to the skies and see...

Lord have mercy.
What? You don't like the Bohemian Rhapsody?

Okay, enough frivolity, everyone. Time to get back on topic. :police:
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Tallitot on July 05, 2012, 02:16:35 AM
like i said, i emailed the parish oin question will let y'all know when & if the respond.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 05, 2012, 03:07:19 AM
With that aside, the official allowance of altar girls would be an apostasy by the Orthodox Church and just like gay marriage and the female Priesthood, would signal the fact that there is no true Church and therefore Christ was wrong, and therefore God cannot exist.

So either your understanding of how women should relate to the altar is true, or God does not exist.

Bro, read that back to yourself for a minute.



Our assumptions:

1. God exists
2. Morality is based upon the creation God has made and the natural way things should be.
3. Christ is God.
4. Christ promised the Church would never fall to Satan (aka heresy, schism, change etc...)
5. The Orthodox Church is the One, True and Only Church
6. The Church cannot teach error, promote heretical innovations or changes.
You have yet to show how having altar girls is heretical.
After all, I can think of a number of reasons why having girls serve in the altar may not be a good idea, but calling the practice a heresy is rather a bit of a stretch. Don't you think?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 05, 2012, 03:10:05 AM
Devin, you see me keep pressing you for theological reasons for why we the Church do what we do. What I would like to see from you is a statement of how men and women are ontologically different in God's sight and how those ontological differences dictate that only men can be permitted to perform most of the liturgical ministries in the Church. I understand that we have traditionally done things a particular way, and I'm certainly not going to be so presumptuous as to say that we should change that. Given time, I suppose I can even articulate some theological reasons for why we do what we do. Merely saying, "We've always done things this way, so we're always going to do things this way, and nothing's ever going to change," is an intellectual cop-out, IMO. Our Church is built on theological revelation, not thoughtless repetition.

I'd note that Met. Rodopoulos, in his An Overview of Orthodox Canon Law, notes that while custom is a part of canon law, that a custom must have truth to it (it seems to be he is saying it must be based in the theology of the Church, though I am open to correction) in order to be a part of the Tradition as opposed to merely a tradition.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 05, 2012, 03:10:05 AM
Just to correct some of Devin's illusions: little kids (like 10, 11, 12 etc0 reading the Apostle has been common practice in the Romanian Church (girls too, on occasion) . I imagine it happens in many other churches. So much for the  new bishop of Chicago (OCA) outlawing that.


I wouldn't trust anything that comes out of parts of central Romania and far northwestern Romania.

I wonder how many posters actually trust you...
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Shiny on July 05, 2012, 04:40:55 AM
With that aside, the official allowance of altar girls would be an apostasy by the Orthodox Church and just like gay marriage and the female Priesthood, would signal the fact that there is no true Church and therefore Christ was wrong, and therefore God cannot exist.

So either your understanding of how women should relate to the altar is true, or God does not exist.

Bro, read that back to yourself for a minute.



Our assumptions:

1. God exists
2. Morality is based upon the creation God has made and the natural way things should be.
3. Christ is God.
4. Christ promised the Church would never fall to Satan (aka heresy, schism, change etc...)
5. The Orthodox Church is the One, True and Only Church
6. The Church cannot teach error, promote heretical innovations or changes.
You have yet to show how having altar girls is heretical.
You're asking someone who is insufferably sanctimonious.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: mike on July 05, 2012, 05:23:18 AM
Look at the iconography of all deaconess Saints, do they wear sticharion or clerical garments? No...

Are you sure?

(http://www.angelfire.com/pa/deaconess/TAT.gif)

As for unchangeable tradition, the Liturgy hasn't changed, we haven't ever eliminated the Eucharist nor the reading of the Epistle nor the basic core of the liturgy.

On the other hand Old Testament readings were removed.

One specific rite I read about talked about how during their tonsuring, they receive communion and took the chalice to the altar. However, of course, who knows if that was an orthodox service.

Fr. Goar, despite being a RC, in his Euchologion used only Orthodox sources.

It isn't just those two jurisdictions that are guilty of it, the OCA is too. There are FAR too many Orthodox here in America who have tried to "Americanize" and thus have adopted heretical Protestant sensibilities. This includes female readers, altar girls, pews, organs, westernized iconography, women holding the communion cloth etc...

Actually westernized iconography is a Russian thing. And I've seen women reading the Epistle in parishes that never heard of Protestantism.

It's amazing how many people describe practises they don't like as "Protestant influence" ignoring the fact they happen in the areas with no Protestant influence.

I have seen a parish with 150 people in attendance have a female member of the parish read the Epistle (and they had allowed a young child in the congregation, not an altar boy read the epistle on another occasion). This same parish had about 10 kids (from very young to late adolescence) serving as altar boys.

How are altar boys different from other children? They are neither ordained, nor tonsured.

It definitely isn't a typical Orthodox Church, you need to go out and see more churches, especially in places where Orthodoxy has been there for 2000 years.

How many such churches have YOU personally seen?

Romania needs to just kick out the non-Orthodox to the nations which are predominantly Roman Catholic like Hungary and Slovakia.

And America should kill all non-Protestants to the nations that are predominantly Orthodox. Spending a few weeks attending a Greek or Russian church would help you to get rid of your delusions.

Women, including young girls, have no place in the Altar.  From old this was the case, and this is why it was so extraordinary that the Theotokos was allowed in to the Holy of Holies (a place where the priest (always a male) only entered but once a year).

As you wrote that was not a woman thing.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: genesisone on July 05, 2012, 08:09:00 AM
Liza, you should be giving workshops on the complementary roles of men and women, clergy and laity. Thank you for your sane words.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: podkarpatska on July 05, 2012, 08:12:56 AM
For quite some time, one had to be at least a subdeacon to approach the altar (or, as noted, the Emperor, but we stopped having them some time ago).

The MP permits the Russian President to commune in the altar. President Putin has done this.


Does that put Putin on the 'track' for Tsarhood? Sort of like making boys sub-deacons in the hopes that they are on the path to a vocation? Just sorta wondering???  ;) ;)
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Manalive on July 05, 2012, 08:49:47 AM
Okay, so here's how I see it.

Women, including young girls, have no place in the Altar.  From old this was the case, and this is why it was so extraordinary that the Theotokos was allowed in to the Holy of Holies (a place where the priest (always a male) only entered but once a year).

Why?  Well, there are many reasons mentioned in the OT and the NT.  To me personally, the most poignant lesson that women are not to enter the Altar, which is reserved for the clergy, is Christ choosing men to be His disciples, and therefore bishops, priest, etc.  He picked 12 men, and not a single woman.  Why did He do that?  Who knows?  I also don't know why God created mosquitoes, but He did.  I'm sure He knows best and has a reason for all He has done.

That's one reason.  Another might be that women have their monthly cycles, but, we won't go there because that has been covered ad nauseam.

What about when she's a mother....who will watch her children when she's busy in the altar?  I can't picture daycare behind the iconostasis.

Finally, on a completely non-theological note....I don't care what you say, girls love to flirt.  With the odd exception, they will fluff their hair, redden their cheeks, elongate their lashes and giggle when a boy comes within sight.  Boys love to flirt with girls, as well.  Isn't it bad enough that the boys spill the wine, almost set the church on fire when lighting the censor, etc.....without the added burden of having to smile and impress girls at the same time.

Mt. Athos is forbidden to women, and we should respect that.  Granted in emergencies women have been permitted on the island, and in emergencies with permission, women have been allowed in the altar.  Women have a million places they "can" be and a million things they "can" be doing....we don't "need" to do everything and go everywhere.   ....and yet we have those who complain about this restriction...that the monks need to be strong enough to handle seeing a woman, etc.  Who says they aren't....but, it's an unnecessary distraction.  Why make them feel uncomfortable?  Isn't that why women often go to female exclusive gyms?  So that they don't worry about what is showing or bouncing, and that some guy is eyeing them?  What's wrong with the sexes being segregated if they wish to be?  Not everything needs to be equalized.  

As for the women keeping quiet, not teaching and not reading in church, etc....which is mentioned in the Scriptures....these things have changed with the times.  Women were forbidden to speak, but, women also didn't work, nor vote.  Now we do, and our roles and responsibilities have changed in the life of the Church.  

The "silence" portion wasn't even completely true in the time of the Apostles, as many women went out and preached from the get go....and many found favor in the eyes of God for their preaching.  

Therefore, having women read the Epistle, serve on the church council and act as Sunday School teachers is the norm.  It's rare to find a man who is even interested in filling the role of Sunday School teacher, and therefore, the women have taken it on, as it's better to have a woman teach your children, then let them out in the world with no knowledge of their Faith.

As for the reading of the Epistle, I have seen both women and children read it...and it didn't upset me. As the norm, it's the reader, or another man.  However, I don't honestly see anything wrong with women or teens reading.  They are not entering the Altar, they are simply reading within the Nave.  I've seen one teenage boy read the Epistle in Ukrainian, and a teenage girl read the same one in English after he had finished.  They read beautifully....even better than the man who usually reads...who yells so loud, one can't even understand what is being said.

As long as they are not being disrespectful, and are not in the Altar, I don't see the harm with older children taking an active role in the services.

“Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these."  Mark 10:14

In my parish, men have ruled for 65 years!  Women played no role whatsoever.  How disheartening to be a woman in such a situation.  The men held the candles, the men got to carry the banners, the icons, the......you name it.  Why?  You know there are women in the parish who are by far more faithful and yet they can't even carry an icon.  Why?

A few years back I saw other churches where women got to carry the banners out of the church when greeting a bishop.  Wow, I thought. Really?  So, at Pascha I asked my priest if he would mind...and he said he saw no issues with women carrying things outside the Altar.  So there I was....the first woman in the history of my parish to carry the banner of the Theotokos around the church on Pascha!  When I gathered in the center of the nave with the men, you could hear the whispers....and then I glanced at the choir which had gathered near the door, waiting to exit and sing....and the women were all giving me a thumbs up.

Why shouldn't I carry the banner?  :)  I have carried ever since....and to be honest....I only carry it out of principle...because that thing is HEAVY!!!!  Oh my gosh!!!!  I can't wait for the end of the third time around....and then climb the steps....man!  I don't know how the guys do it....I can hardly keep it balanced!  :D

Let's not forget the Incarnation only occurred due to a woman.  Women are not disliked or discarded in the Church.  We simply have different roles from men.  Jobs need to be delegated to different individuals, otherwise, everyone would squabble over one duty, while completely neglecting another.

There are plenty of things for women to do in the Church.  Even kitchen duty is an honor.  We get to feed our people.  We get to teach the kids.  We get to keep peace in our families.  We nurture, we love, we clean, we make this world a better place.

Leave the altar to the men.  They have little enough to do otherwise.  :)





This should be the last post of this thread.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: ialmisry on July 05, 2012, 09:07:48 AM
Liza, you should be giving workshops on the complementary roles of men and women, clergy and laity. Thank you for your sane words.
+1.

Btw, I went to an all boy school.  One of our brother schools went co-ed.  They used to have "jug" (detention) once enough guys (50) got detention.  In other words, every day.  Once it went co-ed, they had to wait months for a sufficient number.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 05, 2012, 09:10:41 AM
Just wondering for those of you who are strictly opposed to women being in the altar:
In your parish, who does the cleaning in the altar?

Our altar boys actually do that. They pick up feather dusters after liturgy.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 05, 2012, 09:11:48 AM
"Just because grass is green doesn't mean grass is green"

???

Priest doing something doesn't mean it's the Church. The disgusting clergy who signed at the Council of Florence committed apostasy and were exiled by the people, the church didn't reunite with Rome, they just committed apostasy. (and honestly the people should have kicked them out and retaken Hagia Sophia by force)

Just because a Priest is an idiot doesn't mean the Church is allowing altar girls.

Let the blood of the apostates flow from the horns of the altar. It's practically Biblical.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: ialmisry on July 05, 2012, 09:13:56 AM
lol is this real life
Or is this just fantasy?

Caught in a landslide.
No escape from reality
Open your eyes!
Look up to the skies and see...

Lord have mercy.
What? You don't like the Bohemian Rhapsody?

Okay, enough frivolity, everyone. Time to get back on topic. :police:
btw, you know that Freddie was Zoroastrian?  A modern magi......?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 05, 2012, 09:14:32 AM
But women were allowed to read the epistle. It even happened on occasion, in backwards Romanian villages in the '20's or 30's. Know it from grandma.

But were they heretical new calendar backwards villages? Or truly Orthodox old calendar backwards villages?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 05, 2012, 09:15:24 AM
I'm so glad we have posters on OC.net who are willing to correct the errors of bishops who do things like permit altar girls, most likely with the knowledge of other bishops in their synods, when the synod is too stupid or heretical to be bothered with the correction.

Praise God from the heavens, praise him for OC.net where we are all able to be properly taught the truth, where our bishops have failed.

Yes, praise him.  If it were not for the laity and the monks, the Bishops would have led us into apostasy centuries ago.

And I'm sure the laity and monks have generally been completely anonymous speaking to other anonymous laymen and never actually addressing a bishop, when they were keeping the flame of Orthodoxy alive.  The fact is, if a bishop chooses to permit altar girls, where is the canon explicitly prohibiting him from doing so?  If there isn't one, then why should he be unable to?  The Synod in Trullo even adopted a canon from the Council of Carthage, which says that the baptism by heretics is not legitimate, and requires an Orthodox baptism of those being received from heretical groups.  Yet, no one claims that the bishops are committing heresy when they bring people in via chrismation, no one says it's evil, no one says the bishops are trying to make Orthodoxy like the Anglicans, well, no one in the Church anyways.

No one? Surely you jest.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 05, 2012, 09:20:10 AM
For quite some time, one had to be at least a subdeacon to approach the altar (or, as noted, the Emperor, but we stopped having them some time ago).

The MP permits the Russian President to commune in the altar. President Putin has done this.

Cool. They should make him tsar in reality as opposed to de facto and be done with it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 05, 2012, 09:21:42 AM
Does anyone know how female altar servers and gay marriages are linked?

If one, then the other. Obviously.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 05, 2012, 09:25:41 AM
The things you mentioned are a part of tradition not Tradition. Women can never be at the altar and cannot wear sticharion. This an unchangable part of our Tradition. Besides married Bishops and Deaconnesses fell out of common usage, it can still be done.

You are the one without faith because you don't recognize that the divine Church created by God himself is without any error, without any corruption and is absolutely changeless just as God is.

You need to quit listening to hypo-dox Christians and quit questioning the Traditions of the Church. Like I said, if you want to dare question the Church, go become a Protestant.

The Church has endured and will endure questioning. Why? Because it provides actual answers. Your answer is not the same as that of the Church.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 05, 2012, 09:35:16 AM
Can you answer me why it is that those who are in our church and espousing liberal views are composed of mostly cradles? (obviously I'm not saying all cradles are like this?)

I've talked to a woman who favored women's ordination to the Priesthood. She was a cradle...
I've talked to a man who disagrees with closed communion and thinks we should commune all Christians. He was a cradle...
I've talked to another woman who favored homosexual marriage in the church. She was a cradle...
I've talked to another man who thought he was qualified to serve the Liturgy because he had "seen it his whole life" and could "do just a good a job as the Priest"... He was a cradle...
I've talked to yet another woman who wanted to dress up like a man and sneak onto Mount Athos to shamelessly defy the ban on females there. She was a cradle...
I've talked to yet another man who wanted me to question our church's stance against ecumenism (inter-communion and con-celebration) and the Roman Catholic Church. He was a cradle...

Explain that to me, and why we should tolerate such people who openly defy and disagree with our church (with absolutely no regrets). Explain to my why I haven't encountered converts (and I'm talking baptized Orthodox converts) who feel this way?

You know, there is a reason we only have about 800,000-900,000 Orthodox Christians in North America. We cannot count the "baptized" who never attend church more than every few years, they simply aren't Orthodox Christians. That is why we don't have several million Orthodox in the United States, we don't even have a million.

I would rather we remain a smaller church with traditionally minded people or people willing to become traditionally minded rather than a bigger church with liberal, "progressive" minded people who openly disagree with the church without shame.

Then God help us.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Veniamin on July 05, 2012, 09:36:24 AM
Does anyone know how female altar servers and gay marriages are linked?

If one, then the other. Obviously.

It's a well known fact that the mere sight of a female altar server will cause previously heterosexual men to immediately run out the door, fly to California, and marry each other.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 05, 2012, 09:37:35 AM
Just to correct some of Devin's illusions: little kids (like 10, 11, 12 etc0 reading the Apostle has been common practice in the Romanian Church (girls too, on occasion) . I imagine it happens in many other churches. So much for the  new bishop of Chicago (OCA) outlawing that.


Did I say all of the "Old World" churches? Besides, you don't even agree with the church anyway, so why should we trust what you say.

2.5 million Romanians are heretics anyway, I wouldn't trust anything that comes out of parts of central Romania and far northwestern Romania.
I think I have a better grasp on some things than you have.

hmm... Like I said, I don't trust anything from anyone that comes from areas in Romania like Harghita, Covasna, Mures, Satu Mare, Bihor and Maramures. I would be skeptical of anything from anywhere in Romania where they live amongst a lot of non-Orthodox.

If one can't live with the non-Orthodox and be Orthodox and so many of the Orthodox aren't really Orthodox, then what is one to do? Perhaps we should set up a moon colony?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Paisius on July 05, 2012, 09:38:48 AM
like i said, i emailed the parish oin question will let y'all know when & if the respond.


Now I'm starting to feel like this is the twilight zone.......  


Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 05, 2012, 09:39:19 AM
Just to correct some of Devin's illusions: little kids (like 10, 11, 12 etc0 reading the Apostle has been common practice in the Romanian Church (girls too, on occasion) . I imagine it happens in many other churches. So much for the  new bishop of Chicago (OCA) outlawing that.


Did I say all of the "Old World" churches? Besides, you don't even agree with the church anyway, so why should we trust what you say.

2.5 million Romanians are heretics anyway, I wouldn't trust anything that comes out of parts of central Romania and far northwestern Romania.
I think I have a better grasp on some things than you have.

hmm... Like I said, I don't trust anything from anyone that comes from areas in Romania like Harghita, Covasna, Mures, Satu Mare, Bihor and Maramures. I would be skeptical of anything from anywhere in Romania where they live amongst a lot of non-Orthodox.
And we should trust you in Missouri, if the percentage of Orthodox is the criterion. The percentage of Orthodox in Bihor somewhere between 70%- to 80%. What is it again, in Missouri. You just keep shooting yourself in the foot.

I think this is one of the reasons we have so many abuses in American parishes including in my home state... Look at Greece where pretty much all the provinces are 98% Orthodox.

I never saw any of these abuses (save for chairs and westernized iconography which is being replaced and stopped).

Communists, empty churches, godless secularism...
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 05, 2012, 09:40:02 AM
All I have to say, is that if our Church ever officially allows gay marriage, female Priesthood or altar girls (serving at the altar), that would pretty much signal the end of my adherence to Christianity. Thankfully that will never, ever happen because the Church is pure and without change.
good grief ??? ::) your adherence to Christianity is already you know, fringey and plainly reactionary plus suffering from melancholy romanticism .

+1
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 05, 2012, 09:42:43 AM
To paraphrase St. Constantine, "Fashion a ladder, Devin, and climb your own way into heaven."

Comparing gay marriage and women priests to deaconesses and altar girls, and insulting everyone who disagrees with you outside of the pure cathari donatist church you see yourself as a part of, including large swathes of the country of Romania? You need to take a massive, massive chill pill.

Woah, I've not questioned the role of deaconesses. That has been in our church since before Nicaea.

As for those "swathes of Romania' if you did your research, those regions I mentioned are those with huge percentages of Roman Catholics and Protestants rather than Orthodox Christians. They should be deported from Romania to the countries where they belong, like Hungary and Slovakia.

Hooray for ethno-religious cleansing. Let's keep our Orthodox countries pure.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 05, 2012, 09:44:44 AM

Woah, I've not questioned the role of deaconesses. That has been in our church since before Nicaea.
Fair enough, although it appears you question their role as actual deacons vs. the revisionist "they just helped women and weren't ordained or 'special' tonsured" position. But that's a battle for another day involving mystery vs. sacrament and all that jazz.

[Roman Catholics] should be deported from Romania to the countries where they belong, like Hungary and Slovakia.
Not-so-holy Russia is finished.


You need to stop listening to all that Ukrainian propaganda. They've been under the Latin yoke too long.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: LizaSymonenko on July 05, 2012, 10:09:27 AM

Leave Ukraine out of this.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Orthodox11 on July 05, 2012, 10:10:53 AM
Leave Ukraine out of this.

Putin would have been made Tsar by now if it wasn't for you pseudodox party poopers.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: jmbejdl on July 05, 2012, 10:15:22 AM
Just to correct some of Devin's illusions: little kids (like 10, 11, 12 etc0 reading the Apostle has been common practice in the Romanian Church (girls too, on occasion) . I imagine it happens in many other churches. So much for the  new bishop of Chicago (OCA) outlawing that.


Did I say all of the "Old World" churches? Besides, you don't even agree with the church anyway, so why should we trust what you say.

2.5 million Romanians are heretics anyway, I wouldn't trust anything that comes out of parts of central Romania and far northwestern Romania.
I think I have a better grasp on some things than you have.

hmm... Like I said, I don't trust anything from anyone that comes from areas in Romania like Harghita, Covasna, Mures, Satu Mare, Bihor and Maramures. I would be skeptical of anything from anywhere in Romania where they live amongst a lot of non-Orthodox.

What about Bucovina, a centre of Romanian monasticism and with very low levels of heterodox Christians (not none, of course, there are definitely some Pentecostals, Roman Catholics and Greek-Catholics that you could pack on your cattle trucks and ship to the US, Austria and the Ukraine respectively, but small as a proportion). Is that good enough for you? Would you trust that more? The thing is, for all that this is a rare occurrence, I find myself in complete agreement with Augustin. You appear rather pharisaical in your attitude.

The other Sunday our priest (from Moldova, not one of those dubious Transylvanians, rest assured) spoke in his homily on hospitality and how it was always our duty to be welcoming and friendly, whoever comes to us, as we never know when our faith might change another's life completely. This struck home with me because it was precisely such a beacon of Christian love in the form of a Romanian monk that started me on my path to Orthodoxy. His attitude and his example (welcoming me, a Protestant missionary - of sorts - and thanking me for the aid work I was doing) won me over and I'm sure that by cultivating such an attitude we could all win far more converts than your harsh exactitude, which seems to me to suffer from a deficit of love. Maybe you should reflect on this and consider welcoming in the heretics and showing them why we are right rather than chasing them out whilst shouting at them how they are wrong. By all means defend our Tradition, but do it with patience and love.

As for your advocacy of some Orthodox apartheid, I'm glad that no Orthodox nation will take you up on your suggestion (and I'd worry about their Orthodoxy if they did). How can we convert the heterodox, how could I have ever been converted to Orthodoxy myself, if Orthodox and heterodox are banished from each others' presence?

James
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: LizaSymonenko on July 05, 2012, 10:22:56 AM
Leave Ukraine out of this.

Putin would have been made Tsar by now if it wasn't for you pseudodox party poopers.

I hope you calling Ukrainian "pseudodox" is merely a joke....I just didn't notice the smiley.

...and let's keep this on topic.

If you want to push the whole Ukrainian Russian thing, start a thread in Politics.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 05, 2012, 10:28:02 AM
You mistake male deacons with the female deaconess. If you actually knew the history of the Church you would know that the deaconess had to be a much older woman, about in her 40s, who was unmarried.
Yes, I already knew of the different age and marital status requirements.

While they shared some duties that deacons had, they didn't share the Eucharist duties, and probably didn't utter the litanies.
What evidence do you have for this?

You are also mistaken in believing the deaconess has "fallen out of use" when Orthodox Churches still have them, and the Russian Church apparently still has them.
I never said that the role of the deaconess has fallen out of use in the Church. I am fully aware that even in the 20th century, St. Nektarios of Aegina ordained women to the diaconate, much to the chagrin of his fellow bishops.

In fact, you can find photographs of deaconess' on the internet, and guess what? They are in monastic garb, they aren't wearing sticharion.
Just like some priests will wear their cassocks while not in church? If I were to see a photo of a priest wearing nothing over his cassock, would it be safe to conclude that he always wears nothing over his cassock?

If you read Canon 19 of the First Ecumenical Council, you will also see that the deaconess was regarded as part of the laity, NOT the clergy.
We've had a few debates on this forum over how this is true even of male deacons. For instance, a male deacon will receive a layman's funeral, not a priest's funeral.

Also in that time, I think it is safe to say that in the Byzantine Empire, what is the sticharion was probably something men wore rather than women.
Evidence?

Look at the iconography of all deaconess Saints, do they wear sticharion or clerical garments? No...
Can you show us an icon that proves your point? Or rather, can you disprove the point Michal Kalina made with his contradictory icon?

Their role was in assistance of duties with women, like baptism. They did not serve ANY sacerdotal role.
Prove it.

In fact, they probably wore the maphorion, like the Theotokos in icons, possibly along with the orarion wrapped around her in the manner of a sub-deacon (wrapped around with both ends hanging in front).
Probably? That means you don't know for sure?

In short, no altar girls, only the deaconess. Yet even with the deaconess, there isn't any reason for them to be behind in the sanctuary unless there is a good reason or if it is part of their duty as a deaconess.
As others have said on this thread, NO ONE should be in the sanctuary unless there is a very good reason (approved by the priest) or their liturgical duties require them to be back there. That goes for men, too.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: pensateomnia on July 05, 2012, 10:33:04 AM
Theological arguments? I've not seen any.

Read a medieval or even 19th century Euchologion or Trebnik for the theology that animated these customs. Basically, women's bodies were considered to be ritually impure on a regular basis, through menses and especially through complications of pregnancy, miscarriage, stillbirth, and even successful childbirth, and therefore required substantial ascetic and liturgical purification before being worthy to even enter a narthex, much less a nave, before being worthy to be in the same room as a priest, and certainly before being worthy to receive Holy Communion, even in extremis.

There were all kinds of prayers, ceremonies, modified sacraments, customs, and penances designed to correct female ritual impurities. This was especially true in Slavic cultures, but also common in Hellenistic lands as well.

As belief in such things have waned, so too have the various liturgical prohibitions on things like participating in choirs, standing on the right-hand side of the nave, etc.

FWIW, Syriac culture seems to have had a little less of this, so there was much higher female participation in Syriac churches of late antiquity. And, nowadays, it's not uncommon to find female altarservers in Syria or Lebanon.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 05, 2012, 10:36:47 AM
Just to correct some of Devin's illusions: little kids (like 10, 11, 12 etc0 reading the Apostle has been common practice in the Romanian Church (girls too, on occasion) . I imagine it happens in many other churches. So much for the  new bishop of Chicago (OCA) outlawing that.


Did I say all of the "Old World" churches? Besides, you don't even agree with the church anyway, so why should we trust what you say.

2.5 million Romanians are heretics anyway, I wouldn't trust anything that comes out of parts of central Romania and far northwestern Romania.
I think I have a better grasp on some things than you have.

hmm... Like I said, I don't trust anything from anyone that comes from areas in Romania like Harghita, Covasna, Mures, Satu Mare, Bihor and Maramures. I would be skeptical of anything from anywhere in Romania where they live amongst a lot of non-Orthodox.

What about Bucovina, a centre of Romanian monasticism and with very low levels of heterodox Christians (not none, of course, there are definitely some Pentecostals, Roman Catholics and Greek-Catholics that you could pack on your cattle trucks and ship to the US, Austria and the Ukraine respectively, but small as a proportion). Is that good enough for you? Would you trust that more? The thing is, for all that this is a rare occurrence, I find myself in complete agreement with Augustin. You appear rather pharisaical in your attitude.

The other Sunday our priest (from Moldova, not one of those dubious Transylvanians, rest assured) spoke in his homily on hospitality and how it was always our duty to be welcoming and friendly, whoever comes to us, as we never know when our faith might change another's life completely. This struck home with me because it was precisely such a beacon of Christian love in the form of a Romanian monk that started me on my path to Orthodoxy. His attitude and his example (welcoming me, a Protestant missionary - of sorts - and thanking me for the aid work I was doing) won me over and I'm sure that by cultivating such an attitude we could all win far more converts than your harsh exactitude, which seems to me to suffer from a deficit of love. Maybe you should reflect on this and consider welcoming in the heretics and showing them why we are right rather than chasing them out whilst shouting at them how they are wrong. By all means defend our Tradition, but do it with patience and love.

As for your advocacy of some Orthodox apartheid, I'm glad that no Orthodox nation will take you up on your suggestion (and I'd worry about their Orthodoxy if they did). How can we convert the heterodox, how could I have ever been converted to Orthodoxy myself, if Orthodox and heterodox are banished from each others' presence?

James
Yes, ISTM that Devin is more concerned with burying the talent he has (i.e., preserving the purity of the Faith against defilement) than with investing that talent and helping it grow (i.e., sharing the Faith with others that they, too, may come to believe).
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Orthodox11 on July 05, 2012, 10:40:16 AM
I hope you calling Ukrainian "pseudodox" is merely a joke....I just didn't notice the smiley.

 :P *

I thought it was too obvious to need one.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 05, 2012, 10:48:20 AM
A lot of you are making me realize why my priest had warned us that a lot of these websites or a lot of the people on them aren't actually espousing Orthodox Christianity at all.

No wonder there are people leaving the churh for schismatic groups, when they see other Orthodox being lax in their practice and faith.

There only seem to be a few on this website that actually know Orthodox Christianity and actually care, rather than trying to be modernist, politically-correct pigs. Heck, now I also realize why I prefer a certain Orthodox forum to this one.

Thank God we have our monastics because some of you are showing the laity to be as bad as some of our Bishops.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Schultz on July 05, 2012, 10:51:53 AM
A lot of you are making me realize why my priest had warned us that a lot of these websites or a lot of the people on them aren't actually espousing Orthodox Christianity at all.

No wonder there are people leaving the churh for schismatic groups, when they see other Orthodox being lax in their practice and faith.

There only seem to be a few on this website that actually know Orthodox Christianity and actually care, rather than trying to be modernist, politically-correct pigs. Heck, now I also realize why I prefer a certain Orthodox forum to this one.

Thank God we have our monastics because some of you are showing the laity to be as bad as some of our Bishops.

(http://olystudio.com/Images/product_shots/accessories/mirrors/natasha_mirror.jpg)
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: LizaSymonenko on July 05, 2012, 10:55:33 AM
A lot of you are making me realize why my priest had warned us that a lot of these websites or a lot of the people on them aren't actually espousing Orthodox Christianity at all.

No wonder there are people leaving the churh for schismatic groups, when they see other Orthodox being lax in their practice and faith.

There only seem to be a few on this website that actually know Orthodox Christianity and actually care, rather than trying to be modernist, politically-correct pigs. Heck, now I also realize why I prefer a certain Orthodox forum to this one.

Thank God we have our monastics because some of you are showing the laity to be as bad as some of our Bishops.

Devin, the people who leave Orthodoxy due to witnessing so claimed Orthodox faithful being lax in their practices....don't understand Orthodoxy.  You can't leave the Church, because you saw someone not cross themselves, or kneel when they should have, or go to Holy Communion more often, or wear skimpy clothing to church, or talk during Liturgy, come late, sit, or whatever....

People are people.  Do not confuse the sheep with the Shepherd.

If people leave the Church because of what they see in other people, then they were never really members of the Church.

Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: LizaSymonenko on July 05, 2012, 10:56:58 AM

Thank God we have our monastics because some of you are showing the laity to be as bad as some of our Bishops.

You had better substantiate your claim against Orthodox bishops, or retract it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Paisius on July 05, 2012, 11:03:26 AM
Heck, now I also realize why I prefer a certain Orthodox forum to this one.


Then why not spare yourself the pain and suffering of having to deal with us anonymous, modernist, armchair apostates and just stay over there?

Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: jmbejdl on July 05, 2012, 11:04:05 AM
A lot of you are making me realize why my priest had warned us that a lot of these websites or a lot of the people on them aren't actually espousing Orthodox Christianity at all.

No wonder there are people leaving the churh for schismatic groups, when they see other Orthodox being lax in their practice and faith.

There only seem to be a few on this website that actually know Orthodox Christianity and actually care, rather than trying to be modernist, politically-correct pigs. Heck, now I also realize why I prefer a certain Orthodox forum to this one.

Thank God we have our monastics because some of you are showing the laity to be as bad as some of our Bishops.

I'm not sure that you are actually able to peer into the hearts of those who post here and claim they are lax in their faith... seems unlikely to say the least. Likewise unless you know them all personally, how can you denigrate their practice? I don't recall Christ praising the pharisees for their self-righteous, unloving adherence to the form of the law, rather I recall Him condemning them as whited sepulchres. Do you honestly not see the similarity between the attitude you display in some of your posts and that?

I thank God for our monastics too, but I also thank God that the ones I know do not display the same attitude that you have in this thread. Yes they are staunch defenders of the faith and Holy Tradition but it is possible to be that and still be hospitable and loving. You seem to confuse the latter for laxity of faith when it is quite the reverse.

James
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: podkarpatska on July 05, 2012, 11:06:16 AM
Just to correct some of Devin's illusions: little kids (like 10, 11, 12 etc0 reading the Apostle has been common practice in the Romanian Church (girls too, on occasion) . I imagine it happens in many other churches. So much for the  new bishop of Chicago (OCA) outlawing that.


Did I say all of the "Old World" churches? Besides, you don't even agree with the church anyway, so why should we trust what you say.

2.5 million Romanians are heretics anyway, I wouldn't trust anything that comes out of parts of central Romania and far northwestern Romania.
I think I have a better grasp on some things than you have.

hmm... Like I said, I don't trust anything from anyone that comes from areas in Romania like Harghita, Covasna, Mures, Satu Mare, Bihor and Maramures. I would be skeptical of anything from anywhere in Romania where they live amongst a lot of non-Orthodox.

What about Bucovina, a centre of Romanian monasticism and with very low levels of heterodox Christians (not none, of course, there are definitely some Pentecostals, Roman Catholics and Greek-Catholics that you could pack on your cattle trucks and ship to the US, Austria and the Ukraine respectively, but small as a proportion). Is that good enough for you? Would you trust that more? The thing is, for all that this is a rare occurrence, I find myself in complete agreement with Augustin. You appear rather pharisaical in your attitude.

The other Sunday our priest (from Moldova, not one of those dubious Transylvanians, rest assured) spoke in his homily on hospitality and how it was always our duty to be welcoming and friendly, whoever comes to us, as we never know when our faith might change another's life completely. This struck home with me because it was precisely such a beacon of Christian love in the form of a Romanian monk that started me on my path to Orthodoxy. His attitude and his example (welcoming me, a Protestant missionary - of sorts - and thanking me for the aid work I was doing) won me over and I'm sure that by cultivating such an attitude we could all win far more converts than your harsh exactitude, which seems to me to suffer from a deficit of love. Maybe you should reflect on this and consider welcoming in the heretics and showing them why we are right rather than chasing them out whilst shouting at them how they are wrong. By all means defend our Tradition, but do it with patience and love.

As for your advocacy of some Orthodox apartheid, I'm glad that no Orthodox nation will take you up on your suggestion (and I'd worry about their Orthodoxy if they did). How can we convert the heterodox, how could I have ever been converted to Orthodoxy myself, if Orthodox and heterodox are banished from each others' presence?

James

I would just like to chime in in agreement here with this post! Frankly, Devin's comments about cradles based on what - unsupported anecdotal 'knowledge'? - were childish and indicative of why hearsay is unreliable in both a court of law and in everyday life.

Recently the EA published survey results about regular church attendance. The Orthodox in the USA with the highest levels of regular liturgical participation are found in the OCA, the  ACROD and the UOC. Duh - these jurisdictions trace their earliest existence in this country to men and women who lived not in exclusively or even predominantly Orthodox lands but in the border areas where east and west co-mingled. Enough of the idealized nonsense.

For the most part we are blessed with solidly Orthodox clergy, solidly Orthodox Bishops and solidly Orthodox monastics in this country. Yes, there are 'bad apples' among them, but come on - that is true of any human institution.

For those who want to worship exclusively at an altar of 'unpolluted' 't'radition, there are options for such folks. Frankly, the member churches of the EA are probably not the place for you. But enough of the self-righteous blather already.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: LizaSymonenko on July 05, 2012, 11:11:27 AM
Heck, now I also realize why I prefer a certain Orthodox forum to this one.


Then why not spare yourself the pain and suffering of having to deal with us anonymous, modernist, armchair apostates and just stay over there?



Oh, come on!

There are NO Orthodox Forums, other than this one!

Talk about living in a fantasy world.  ;)

Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 05, 2012, 11:31:21 AM
Just to correct some of Devin's illusions: little kids (like 10, 11, 12 etc0 reading the Apostle has been common practice in the Romanian Church (girls too, on occasion) . I imagine it happens in many other churches. So much for the  new bishop of Chicago (OCA) outlawing that.


Did I say all of the "Old World" churches? Besides, you don't even agree with the church anyway, so why should we trust what you say.

2.5 million Romanians are heretics anyway, I wouldn't trust anything that comes out of parts of central Romania and far northwestern Romania.
I think I have a better grasp on some things than you have.

hmm... Like I said, I don't trust anything from anyone that comes from areas in Romania like Harghita, Covasna, Mures, Satu Mare, Bihor and Maramures. I would be skeptical of anything from anywhere in Romania where they live amongst a lot of non-Orthodox.

What about Bucovina, a centre of Romanian monasticism and with very low levels of heterodox Christians (not none, of course, there are definitely some Pentecostals, Roman Catholics and Greek-Catholics that you could pack on your cattle trucks and ship to the US, Austria and the Ukraine respectively, but small as a proportion). Is that good enough for you? Would you trust that more? The thing is, for all that this is a rare occurrence, I find myself in complete agreement with Augustin. You appear rather pharisaical in your attitude.

The other Sunday our priest (from Moldova, not one of those dubious Transylvanians, rest assured) spoke in his homily on hospitality and how it was always our duty to be welcoming and friendly, whoever comes to us, as we never know when our faith might change another's life completely. This struck home with me because it was precisely such a beacon of Christian love in the form of a Romanian monk that started me on my path to Orthodoxy. His attitude and his example (welcoming me, a Protestant missionary - of sorts - and thanking me for the aid work I was doing) won me over and I'm sure that by cultivating such an attitude we could all win far more converts than your harsh exactitude, which seems to me to suffer from a deficit of love. Maybe you should reflect on this and consider welcoming in the heretics and showing them why we are right rather than chasing them out whilst shouting at them how they are wrong. By all means defend our Tradition, but do it with patience and love.

As for your advocacy of some Orthodox apartheid, I'm glad that no Orthodox nation will take you up on your suggestion (and I'd worry about their Orthodoxy if they did). How can we convert the heterodox, how could I have ever been converted to Orthodoxy myself, if Orthodox and heterodox are banished from each others' presence?

James

I would just like to chime in in agreement here with this post! Frankly, Devin's comments about cradles based on what - unsupported anecdotal 'knowledge'? - were childish and indicative of why hearsay is unreliable in both a court of law and in everyday life.

Recently the EA published survey results about regular church attendance. The Orthodox in the USA with the highest levels of regular liturgical participation are found in the OCA, the  ACROD and the UOC. Duh - these jurisdictions trace their earliest existence in this country to men and women who lived not in exclusively or even predominantly Orthodox lands but in the border areas where east and west co-mingled. Enough of the idealized nonsense.

For the most part we are blessed with solidly Orthodox clergy, solidly Orthodox Bishops and solidly Orthodox monastics in this country. Yes, there are 'bad apples' among them, but come on - that is true of any human institution.

For those who want to worship exclusively at an altar of 'unpolluted' 't'radition, there are options for such folks. Frankly, the member churches of the EA are probably not the place for you. But enough of the self-righteous blather already.


I think you're also ignoring the survey which showed some Orthodox being just as liberal as some Roman Catholics and Protestants.

As for my claims against some Bishops, just look at men like former Metropolitan Herman, who stole from the church, or that Bishop who was anointed with holy water in a Roman Catholic Church. Or the fact that the bishop who, while reading the anathemas, added legitimate heresies and was then chastised by the Church of Greece since he mentioned Roman Catholicism?

As for the example of the Council of Florence, it wasn't just St Mark of Ephesus that didn't sign, the other patriarchs who weren't there and many of the other bishops didn't sign and rejected it. In fact, thankfully the metropolitan of Kiev was arrested and eventually kicked out of Russia. The heretical bishops fled to their son of perdition in Rome when the righteous Orthodox called them out as being dirty disgusting traitors and apostates and forced them into exile. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 05, 2012, 12:57:27 PM
A lot of you are making me realize why my priest had warned us that a lot of these websites or a lot of the people on them aren't actually espousing Orthodox Christianity at all.

No wonder there are people leaving the churh for schismatic groups, when they see other Orthodox being lax in their practice and faith.

There only seem to be a few on this website that actually know Orthodox Christianity and actually care, rather than trying to be modernist, politically-correct pigs. Heck, now I also realize why I prefer a certain Orthodox forum to this one.

Thank God we have our monastics because some of you are showing the laity to be as bad as some of our Bishops.
Now you're starting to show your true colors, Devin. Devoid of any substantive arguments to support your positions, you resort to ad hominem.

I think you're also ignoring the survey which showed some Orthodox being just as liberal as some Roman Catholics and Protestants.
I'm sure you could find such Orthodox in our Church, but that doesn't mean the majority of them post here.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 05, 2012, 01:06:42 PM
A lot of you are making me realize why my priest had warned us that a lot of these websites or a lot of the people on them aren't actually espousing Orthodox Christianity at all.

No wonder there are people leaving the churh for schismatic groups, when they see other Orthodox being lax in their practice and faith.

There only seem to be a few on this website that actually know Orthodox Christianity and actually care, rather than trying to be modernist, politically-correct pigs. Heck, now I also realize why I prefer a certain Orthodox forum to this one.

Thank God we have our monastics because some of you are showing the laity to be as bad as some of our Bishops.
Now you're starting to show your true colors, Devin. Devoid of any substantive arguments to support your positions, you resort to ad hominem.

I think you're also ignoring the survey which showed some Orthodox being just as liberal as some Roman Catholics and Protestants.
I'm sure you could find such Orthodox in our Church, but that doesn't mean the majority of them post here.

Hmm, maybe you forget the liberal ideas promoted by many on here. Didn't we have someone in the past openly agreeing with "Axios" and supporting gay marriage in the church? Why wasn't that person banned, or restricted like non-Orthodox are restricted?

Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 05, 2012, 01:09:48 PM
With that aside, the official allowance of altar girls would be an apostasy by the Orthodox Church and just like gay marriage and the female Priesthood, would signal the fact that there is no true Church and therefore Christ was wrong, and therefore God cannot exist.

So either your understanding of how women should relate to the altar is true, or God does not exist.

Bro, read that back to yourself for a minute.



Our assumptions:

1. God exists
2. Morality is based upon the creation God has made and the natural way things should be.
3. Christ is God.
4. Christ promised the Church would never fall to Satan (aka heresy, schism, change etc...)
5. The Orthodox Church is the One, True and Only Church
6. The Church cannot teach error, promote heretical innovations or changes.

If altar girls serving at the altar, homosexual marriage or female priests are allowed, then that automatically cancels out #6. If #6 isn't true, then #5 cannot be true, if #5 isn't true, then #4 isn't true. If #4 isn't true, then #3 isn't true. If #3 isn't true then #2 isn't true and if #2 isn't true, #1 isn't true.

Therefore, if we allow ideas which the Church has always held as either heterodoxy, heresy or wrong, then ultimately God does not and cannot exist.

It's a house of cards, once one fails, it all fails, including the base.

If you actually think that the first assumption requires the second which requires the third, and so on, then please let me know, because I'd love to set a world record for longest laugh.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Asteriktos on July 05, 2012, 01:18:23 PM
Hmm, maybe you forget the liberal ideas promoted by many on here. Didn't we have someone in the past openly agreeing with "Axios" and supporting gay marriage in the church? Why wasn't that person banned, or restricted like non-Orthodox are restricted?

They were and are (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29884.0.html) restricted.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: HabteSelassie on July 05, 2012, 01:31:54 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

The things you mentioned are a part of tradition not Tradition.

You are the one without faith because you don't recognize that the divine Church created by God himself is without any error, without any corruption and is absolutely changeless just as God is.


(http://mshades.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/you-get-nothing.jpg)
"WRONG SIR!! WRONG!!"
stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Schultz on July 05, 2012, 01:49:21 PM
A lot of you are making me realize why my priest had warned us that a lot of these websites or a lot of the people on them aren't actually espousing Orthodox Christianity at all.

No wonder there are people leaving the churh for schismatic groups, when they see other Orthodox being lax in their practice and faith.

There only seem to be a few on this website that actually know Orthodox Christianity and actually care, rather than trying to be modernist, politically-correct pigs. Heck, now I also realize why I prefer a certain Orthodox forum to this one.

Thank God we have our monastics because some of you are showing the laity to be as bad as some of our Bishops.
Now you're starting to show your true colors, Devin. Devoid of any substantive arguments to support your positions, you resort to ad hominem.

I think you're also ignoring the survey which showed some Orthodox being just as liberal as some Roman Catholics and Protestants.
I'm sure you could find such Orthodox in our Church, but that doesn't mean the majority of them post here.

Hmm, maybe you forget the liberal ideas promoted by many on here. Didn't we have someone in the past openly agreeing with "Axios" and supporting gay marriage in the church? Why wasn't that person banned, or restricted like non-Orthodox are restricted?



Does anyone else see/hear the Imperial officer from Endor who said, "You rebel scum!" when Devin starts ranting?

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-oilBLPPg-ew/TpTGlMzPgaI/AAAAAAAAARI/SiZgXIgz0-M/s1600/Rebel%2BScum.jpg)
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 05, 2012, 02:42:05 PM

Leave Ukraine out of this.


But it's so delicious. Alas, for the dearth of varenniki in the area.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 05, 2012, 02:43:28 PM
Leave Ukraine out of this.

Putin would have been made Tsar by now if it wasn't for you pseudodox party poopers.

I hope you calling Ukrainian "pseudodox" is merely a joke....I just didn't notice the smiley.

...and let's keep this on topic.

If you want to push the whole Ukrainian Russian thing, start a thread in Politics.


We were just using sarcasm to illustrate a point. We regret Ukraine had to suffer for this.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 05, 2012, 02:45:52 PM
A lot of you are making me realize why my priest had warned us that a lot of these websites or a lot of the people on them aren't actually espousing Orthodox Christianity at all.

No wonder there are people leaving the churh for schismatic groups, when they see other Orthodox being lax in their practice and faith.

There only seem to be a few on this website that actually know Orthodox Christianity and actually care, rather than trying to be modernist, politically-correct pigs. Heck, now I also realize why I prefer a certain Orthodox forum to this one.

Thank God we have our monastics because some of you are showing the laity to be as bad as some of our Bishops.

And there are also people leaving the Church because of those who are harsh, judgmental, moronic, and have dogma where their love and reason ought to be. But I suppose it's their fault, whereas for everyone else it is the fault of the lax. Glad we have that figured out.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 05, 2012, 02:47:26 PM
A lot of you are making me realize why my priest had warned us that a lot of these websites or a lot of the people on them aren't actually espousing Orthodox Christianity at all.

No wonder there are people leaving the churh for schismatic groups, when they see other Orthodox being lax in their practice and faith.

There only seem to be a few on this website that actually know Orthodox Christianity and actually care, rather than trying to be modernist, politically-correct pigs. Heck, now I also realize why I prefer a certain Orthodox forum to this one.

Thank God we have our monastics because some of you are showing the laity to be as bad as some of our Bishops.

I'm not sure that you are actually able to peer into the hearts of those who post here and claim they are lax in their faith... seems unlikely to say the least. Likewise unless you know them all personally, how can you denigrate their practice? I don't recall Christ praising the pharisees for their self-righteous, unloving adherence to the form of the law, rather I recall Him condemning them as whited sepulchres. Do you honestly not see the similarity between the attitude you display in some of your posts and that?

I thank God for our monastics too, but I also thank God that the ones I know do not display the same attitude that you have in this thread. Yes they are staunch defenders of the faith and Holy Tradition but it is possible to be that and still be hospitable and loving. You seem to confuse the latter for laxity of faith when it is quite the reverse.

James

Amen, James. Amen.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: NicholasMyra on July 05, 2012, 03:00:20 PM
Read a medieval or even 19th century Euchologion or Trebnik for the theology that animated these customs. Basically, women's bodies were considered to be ritually impure on a regular basis, through menses and especially through complications of pregnancy, miscarriage, stillbirth, and even successful childbirth, and therefore required substantial ascetic and liturgical purification before being worthy to even enter a narthex, much less a nave, before being worthy to be in the same room as a priest, and certainly before being worthy to receive Holy Communion, even in extremis.

There were all kinds of prayers, ceremonies, modified sacraments, customs, and penances designed to correct female ritual impurities. This was especially true in Slavic cultures, but also common in Hellenistic lands as well.

"But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage." -Epistle to the Galatians 2:4

"I wish that those who are troubling you would even cut their genitals off." -Epistle to the Galatians 5:12
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: LizaSymonenko on July 05, 2012, 03:40:20 PM
Can you answer me why it is that those who are in our church and espousing liberal views are composed of mostly cradles? (obviously I'm not saying all cradles are like this?)

I've talked to a woman who favored women's ordination to the Priesthood. She was a cradle...
I've talked to a man who disagrees with closed communion and thinks we should commune all Christians. He was a cradle...
I've talked to another woman who favored homosexual marriage in the church. She was a cradle...
I've talked to another man who thought he was qualified to serve the Liturgy because he had "seen it his whole life" and could "do just a good a job as the Priest"... He was a cradle...
I've talked to yet another woman who wanted to dress up like a man and sneak onto Mount Athos to shamelessly defy the ban on females there. She was a cradle...
I've talked to yet another man who wanted me to question our church's stance against ecumenism (inter-communion and con-celebration) and the Roman Catholic Church. He was a cradle...

Explain that to me, and why we should tolerate such people who openly defy and disagree with our church (with absolutely no regrets). Explain to my why I haven't encountered converts (and I'm talking baptized Orthodox converts) who feel this way?

You know, there is a reason we only have about 800,000-900,000 Orthodox Christians in North America. We cannot count the "baptized" who never attend church more than every few years, they simply aren't Orthodox Christians. That is why we don't have several million Orthodox in the United States, we don't even have a million.

I would rather we remain a smaller church with traditionally minded people or people willing to become traditionally minded rather than a bigger church with liberal, "progressive" minded people who openly disagree with the church without shame.

This just shows that instead of packing our bags and doing Missionary work in far away lands....we need to start in our own parishes.

I've encountered some of these people.   Even children and grandchildren of priests....who say "it's all the same, God is one."

They simply don't know, or don't care.  These are the lost lambs, which we need to educate.

Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 05, 2012, 03:49:05 PM
Can you answer me why it is that those who are in our church and espousing liberal views are composed of mostly cradles? (obviously I'm not saying all cradles are like this?)

I've talked to a woman who favored women's ordination to the Priesthood. She was a cradle...
I've talked to a man who disagrees with closed communion and thinks we should commune all Christians. He was a cradle...
I've talked to another woman who favored homosexual marriage in the church. She was a cradle...
I've talked to another man who thought he was qualified to serve the Liturgy because he had "seen it his whole life" and could "do just a good a job as the Priest"... He was a cradle...
I've talked to yet another woman who wanted to dress up like a man and sneak onto Mount Athos to shamelessly defy the ban on females there. She was a cradle...
I've talked to yet another man who wanted me to question our church's stance against ecumenism (inter-communion and con-celebration) and the Roman Catholic Church. He was a cradle...

Explain that to me, and why we should tolerate such people who openly defy and disagree with our church (with absolutely no regrets). Explain to my why I haven't encountered converts (and I'm talking baptized Orthodox converts) who feel this way?

You know, there is a reason we only have about 800,000-900,000 Orthodox Christians in North America. We cannot count the "baptized" who never attend church more than every few years, they simply aren't Orthodox Christians. That is why we don't have several million Orthodox in the United States, we don't even have a million.

I would rather we remain a smaller church with traditionally minded people or people willing to become traditionally minded rather than a bigger church with liberal, "progressive" minded people who openly disagree with the church without shame.

This just shows that instead of packing our bags and doing Missionary work in far away lands....we need to start in our own parishes.

I've encountered some of these people.   Even children and grandchildren of priests....who say "it's all the same, God is one."

They simply don't know, or don't care.  These are the lost lambs, which we need to educate.



That is exactly the way I feel. I also know it isn't just cradles, but I was trying to make a point since the person had made a charge against us so-called "hyperdox fanatics" as just being zealous new converts.

Some of the most Orthodox people I've known were cradles whereas I've seen new converts leave after just a year or two in the church.

I just feel like there are too many people who want a "don't ask, don't tell" policy and want to ignore the truth. There are also some people who don't think it is the business of the Priest to inquire into a person's life or theological viewpoints. They also don't think it's the Priest's business to refuse communion to someone because they disagree with the Church, or because they do something the Priest doesn't agree with.

I don't go up and correct fellow Orthodox in Church because it isn't my place as a layperson. I may calmly and lovingly tell them that they aren't in conformity with the rest of Orthodoxy, or that they need to talk to the Priest about it. I also might eventually have to confront the Priest about it privately. But it is something we have to deal with, no matter if we are in the "old country" or in the "new world".

I've known my Priest to refuse communion to some people for a reason that isn't my personal business, but he has done it. I've also known my Priest to tell people abstaining from communion (even if their children are taking it) to come talk to him, that it is time to confess and receive again. That is his job, to care for the flock and to care about their personal lives and to care for their souls.

When I see people openly disagreeing with the Church, it distresses me because it shows that they are possibly not receiving proper catechism, or not receiving proper care. Maybe they are, and they just aren't paying attention or accepting it, who knows. But the fact is that those people exist and our pastors need to do something about it. Doing something about it isn't "strict' or being "Pharisaical", it is doing the job that is given to our clergy.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Schultz on July 05, 2012, 03:50:36 PM
Can you answer me why it is that those who are in our church and espousing liberal views are composed of mostly cradles? (obviously I'm not saying all cradles are like this?)

I've talked to a woman who favored women's ordination to the Priesthood. She was a cradle...
I've talked to a man who disagrees with closed communion and thinks we should commune all Christians. He was a cradle...
I've talked to another woman who favored homosexual marriage in the church. She was a cradle...
I've talked to another man who thought he was qualified to serve the Liturgy because he had "seen it his whole life" and could "do just a good a job as the Priest"... He was a cradle...
I've talked to yet another woman who wanted to dress up like a man and sneak onto Mount Athos to shamelessly defy the ban on females there. She was a cradle...
I've talked to yet another man who wanted me to question our church's stance against ecumenism (inter-communion and con-celebration) and the Roman Catholic Church. He was a cradle...

Explain that to me, and why we should tolerate such people who openly defy and disagree with our church (with absolutely no regrets). Explain to my why I haven't encountered converts (and I'm talking baptized Orthodox converts) who feel this way?

You know, there is a reason we only have about 800,000-900,000 Orthodox Christians in North America. We cannot count the "baptized" who never attend church more than every few years, they simply aren't Orthodox Christians. That is why we don't have several million Orthodox in the United States, we don't even have a million.

I would rather we remain a smaller church with traditionally minded people or people willing to become traditionally minded rather than a bigger church with liberal, "progressive" minded people who openly disagree with the church without shame.

This just shows that instead of packing our bags and doing Missionary work in far away lands....we need to start in our own parishes.

I've encountered some of these people.   Even children and grandchildren of priests....who say "it's all the same, God is one."

They simply don't know, or don't care.  These are the lost lambs, which we need to educate.



That is exactly the way I feel. I also know it isn't just cradles, but I was trying to make a point since the person had made a charge against us so-called "hyperdox fanatics" as just being zealous new converts.

Some of the most Orthodox people I've known were cradles whereas I've seen new converts leave after just a year or two in the church.

I just feel like there are too many people who want a "don't ask, don't tell" policy and want to ignore the truth. There are also some people who don't think it is the business of the Priest to inquire into a person's life or theological viewpoints. They also don't think it's the Priest's business to refuse communion to someone because they disagree with the Church, or because they do something the Priest doesn't agree with.

I don't go up and correct fellow Orthodox in Church because it isn't my place as a layperson. I may calmly and lovingly tell them that they aren't in conformity with the rest of Orthodoxy, or that they need to talk to the Priest about it. I also might eventually have to confront the Priest about it privately. But it is something we have to deal with, no matter if we are in the "old country" or in the "new world".

But it's okay on the internet for you to do it in a very confrontational manner?

Thanks for outing yourself as an internet bully.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Orthodox11 on July 05, 2012, 03:56:45 PM
Explain that to me, and why we should tolerate such people who openly defy and disagree with our church (with absolutely no regrets). Explain to my why I haven't encountered converts (and I'm talking baptized Orthodox converts) who feel this way?

Converts chose their faith because they have been convinced by it. If they're convinced by it, why would they wish to change it? 'Cradles' didn't chose it, many know nothing about it, and they're simply much greater in number.

That being said, I've met many converts who were in favour of all the things you mentioned. The difference is that while the cradles you mention probably held those opinions out of ignorance, the converts who hold such opinions do so are knowingly defiant of Church teaching. They enter the Church with a desire to reshape it according to their own opinions and fetishes, just as many of the more pharisaical converts do too, just with different fetishes governing their defiance of Church teaching.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 05, 2012, 03:57:09 PM
Can you answer me why it is that those who are in our church and espousing liberal views are composed of mostly cradles? (obviously I'm not saying all cradles are like this?)

I've talked to a woman who favored women's ordination to the Priesthood. She was a cradle...
I've talked to a man who disagrees with closed communion and thinks we should commune all Christians. He was a cradle...
I've talked to another woman who favored homosexual marriage in the church. She was a cradle...
I've talked to another man who thought he was qualified to serve the Liturgy because he had "seen it his whole life" and could "do just a good a job as the Priest"... He was a cradle...
I've talked to yet another woman who wanted to dress up like a man and sneak onto Mount Athos to shamelessly defy the ban on females there. She was a cradle...
I've talked to yet another man who wanted me to question our church's stance against ecumenism (inter-communion and con-celebration) and the Roman Catholic Church. He was a cradle...

Explain that to me, and why we should tolerate such people who openly defy and disagree with our church (with absolutely no regrets). Explain to my why I haven't encountered converts (and I'm talking baptized Orthodox converts) who feel this way?

You know, there is a reason we only have about 800,000-900,000 Orthodox Christians in North America. We cannot count the "baptized" who never attend church more than every few years, they simply aren't Orthodox Christians. That is why we don't have several million Orthodox in the United States, we don't even have a million.

I would rather we remain a smaller church with traditionally minded people or people willing to become traditionally minded rather than a bigger church with liberal, "progressive" minded people who openly disagree with the church without shame.

This just shows that instead of packing our bags and doing Missionary work in far away lands....we need to start in our own parishes.

I've encountered some of these people.   Even children and grandchildren of priests....who say "it's all the same, God is one."

They simply don't know, or don't care.  These are the lost lambs, which we need to educate.



That is exactly the way I feel. I also know it isn't just cradles, but I was trying to make a point since the person had made a charge against us so-called "hyperdox fanatics" as just being zealous new converts.

Some of the most Orthodox people I've known were cradles whereas I've seen new converts leave after just a year or two in the church.

I just feel like there are too many people who want a "don't ask, don't tell" policy and want to ignore the truth. There are also some people who don't think it is the business of the Priest to inquire into a person's life or theological viewpoints. They also don't think it's the Priest's business to refuse communion to someone because they disagree with the Church, or because they do something the Priest doesn't agree with.

I don't go up and correct fellow Orthodox in Church because it isn't my place as a layperson. I may calmly and lovingly tell them that they aren't in conformity with the rest of Orthodoxy, or that they need to talk to the Priest about it. I also might eventually have to confront the Priest about it privately. But it is something we have to deal with, no matter if we are in the "old country" or in the "new world".

But it's okay on the internet for you to do it in a very confrontational manner?

Thanks for outing yourself as an internet bully.

Transmission of signals between the brain and the fingers is much faster than the brain to the mouth and it is much easier to speak without a filter through the internet when communication is instantaneous and relatively anonymous, when you don't know the person personally and aren't speaking to them face-to-face. I admit this fault, and I feel it is a fault we all face and have to fight, and I admit I'm not that good at having a filter, I never have been good at it.

I still feel I am right in what I say, even though it may not be in the nicest manner and though it may not be in the most Christian manner, and though it may be polemical, confrontational and aggressive. I may regret acting in such a manner, but my theological stance still stands.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Schultz on July 05, 2012, 03:59:35 PM
Fair enough.  A good rule of thumb is to walk away from any contentious issue for at least two minutes and when you come back, ask if this how you want to write something.

Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 05, 2012, 04:02:21 PM
Can you answer me why it is that those who are in our church and espousing liberal views are composed of mostly cradles? (obviously I'm not saying all cradles are like this?)

I've talked to a woman who favored women's ordination to the Priesthood. She was a cradle...
I've talked to a man who disagrees with closed communion and thinks we should commune all Christians. He was a cradle...
I've talked to another woman who favored homosexual marriage in the church. She was a cradle...
I've talked to another man who thought he was qualified to serve the Liturgy because he had "seen it his whole life" and could "do just a good a job as the Priest"... He was a cradle...
I've talked to yet another woman who wanted to dress up like a man and sneak onto Mount Athos to shamelessly defy the ban on females there. She was a cradle...
I've talked to yet another man who wanted me to question our church's stance against ecumenism (inter-communion and con-celebration) and the Roman Catholic Church. He was a cradle...

Explain that to me, and why we should tolerate such people who openly defy and disagree with our church (with absolutely no regrets). Explain to my why I haven't encountered converts (and I'm talking baptized Orthodox converts) who feel this way?

You know, there is a reason we only have about 800,000-900,000 Orthodox Christians in North America. We cannot count the "baptized" who never attend church more than every few years, they simply aren't Orthodox Christians. That is why we don't have several million Orthodox in the United States, we don't even have a million.

I would rather we remain a smaller church with traditionally minded people or people willing to become traditionally minded rather than a bigger church with liberal, "progressive" minded people who openly disagree with the church without shame.

This just shows that instead of packing our bags and doing Missionary work in far away lands....we need to start in our own parishes.

I've encountered some of these people.   Even children and grandchildren of priests....who say "it's all the same, God is one."

They simply don't know, or don't care.  These are the lost lambs, which we need to educate.



That is exactly the way I feel. I also know it isn't just cradles, but I was trying to make a point since the person had made a charge against us so-called "hyperdox fanatics" as just being zealous new converts.

Some of the most Orthodox people I've known were cradles whereas I've seen new converts leave after just a year or two in the church.

I just feel like there are too many people who want a "don't ask, don't tell" policy and want to ignore the truth. There are also some people who don't think it is the business of the Priest to inquire into a person's life or theological viewpoints. They also don't think it's the Priest's business to refuse communion to someone because they disagree with the Church, or because they do something the Priest doesn't agree with.

I don't go up and correct fellow Orthodox in Church because it isn't my place as a layperson. I may calmly and lovingly tell them that they aren't in conformity with the rest of Orthodoxy, or that they need to talk to the Priest about it. I also might eventually have to confront the Priest about it privately. But it is something we have to deal with, no matter if we are in the "old country" or in the "new world".

But it's okay on the internet for you to do it in a very confrontational manner?

Thanks for outing yourself as an internet bully.

Transmission of signals between the brain and the fingers is much faster than the brain to the mouth and it is much easier to speak without a filter through the internet when communication is instantaneous and relatively anonymous, when you don't know the person personally and aren't speaking to them face-to-face. I admit this fault, and I feel it is a fault we all face and have to fight, and I admit I'm not that good at having a filter, I never have been good at it.

I still feel I am right in what I say, even though it may not be in the nicest manner and though it may not be in the most Christian manner, and though it may be polemical, confrontational and aggressive. I may regret acting in such a manner, but my theological stance still stands.

Elder Porphyrios said that one can have golden crowns, but if one throws them and breaks people's heads, no good is accomplished.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 05, 2012, 04:03:56 PM
Can you answer me why it is that those who are in our church and espousing liberal views are composed of mostly cradles? (obviously I'm not saying all cradles are like this?)

I've talked to a woman who favored women's ordination to the Priesthood. She was a cradle...
I've talked to a man who disagrees with closed communion and thinks we should commune all Christians. He was a cradle...
I've talked to another woman who favored homosexual marriage in the church. She was a cradle...
I've talked to another man who thought he was qualified to serve the Liturgy because he had "seen it his whole life" and could "do just a good a job as the Priest"... He was a cradle...
I've talked to yet another woman who wanted to dress up like a man and sneak onto Mount Athos to shamelessly defy the ban on females there. She was a cradle...
I've talked to yet another man who wanted me to question our church's stance against ecumenism (inter-communion and con-celebration) and the Roman Catholic Church. He was a cradle...

Explain that to me, and why we should tolerate such people who openly defy and disagree with our church (with absolutely no regrets). Explain to my why I haven't encountered converts (and I'm talking baptized Orthodox converts) who feel this way?

You know, there is a reason we only have about 800,000-900,000 Orthodox Christians in North America. We cannot count the "baptized" who never attend church more than every few years, they simply aren't Orthodox Christians. That is why we don't have several million Orthodox in the United States, we don't even have a million.

I would rather we remain a smaller church with traditionally minded people or people willing to become traditionally minded rather than a bigger church with liberal, "progressive" minded people who openly disagree with the church without shame.

This just shows that instead of packing our bags and doing Missionary work in far away lands....we need to start in our own parishes.

I've encountered some of these people.   Even children and grandchildren of priests....who say "it's all the same, God is one."

They simply don't know, or don't care.  These are the lost lambs, which we need to educate.



That is exactly the way I feel. I also know it isn't just cradles, but I was trying to make a point since the person had made a charge against us so-called "hyperdox fanatics" as just being zealous new converts.

Some of the most Orthodox people I've known were cradles whereas I've seen new converts leave after just a year or two in the church.

I just feel like there are too many people who want a "don't ask, don't tell" policy and want to ignore the truth. There are also some people who don't think it is the business of the Priest to inquire into a person's life or theological viewpoints. They also don't think it's the Priest's business to refuse communion to someone because they disagree with the Church, or because they do something the Priest doesn't agree with.

I don't go up and correct fellow Orthodox in Church because it isn't my place as a layperson. I may calmly and lovingly tell them that they aren't in conformity with the rest of Orthodoxy, or that they need to talk to the Priest about it. I also might eventually have to confront the Priest about it privately. But it is something we have to deal with, no matter if we are in the "old country" or in the "new world".

But it's okay on the internet for you to do it in a very confrontational manner?

Thanks for outing yourself as an internet bully.

Transmission of signals between the brain and the fingers is much faster than the brain to the mouth and it is much easier to speak without a filter through the internet when communication is instantaneous and relatively anonymous, when you don't know the person personally and aren't speaking to them face-to-face. I admit this fault, and I feel it is a fault we all face and have to fight, and I admit I'm not that good at having a filter, I never have been good at it.

I still feel I am right in what I say, even though it may not be in the nicest manner and though it may not be in the most Christian manner, and though it may be polemical, confrontational and aggressive. I may regret acting in such a manner, but my theological stance still stands.
What use is there in being right if you turn everyone against you through your hostility?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 05, 2012, 04:06:42 PM
Can you answer me why it is that those who are in our church and espousing liberal views are composed of mostly cradles? (obviously I'm not saying all cradles are like this?)

I've talked to a woman who favored women's ordination to the Priesthood. She was a cradle...
I've talked to a man who disagrees with closed communion and thinks we should commune all Christians. He was a cradle...
I've talked to another woman who favored homosexual marriage in the church. She was a cradle...
I've talked to another man who thought he was qualified to serve the Liturgy because he had "seen it his whole life" and could "do just a good a job as the Priest"... He was a cradle...
I've talked to yet another woman who wanted to dress up like a man and sneak onto Mount Athos to shamelessly defy the ban on females there. She was a cradle...
I've talked to yet another man who wanted me to question our church's stance against ecumenism (inter-communion and con-celebration) and the Roman Catholic Church. He was a cradle...

Explain that to me, and why we should tolerate such people who openly defy and disagree with our church (with absolutely no regrets). Explain to my why I haven't encountered converts (and I'm talking baptized Orthodox converts) who feel this way?

You know, there is a reason we only have about 800,000-900,000 Orthodox Christians in North America. We cannot count the "baptized" who never attend church more than every few years, they simply aren't Orthodox Christians. That is why we don't have several million Orthodox in the United States, we don't even have a million.

I would rather we remain a smaller church with traditionally minded people or people willing to become traditionally minded rather than a bigger church with liberal, "progressive" minded people who openly disagree with the church without shame.

This just shows that instead of packing our bags and doing Missionary work in far away lands....we need to start in our own parishes.

I've encountered some of these people.   Even children and grandchildren of priests....who say "it's all the same, God is one."

They simply don't know, or don't care.  These are the lost lambs, which we need to educate.



That is exactly the way I feel. I also know it isn't just cradles, but I was trying to make a point since the person had made a charge against us so-called "hyperdox fanatics" as just being zealous new converts.

Some of the most Orthodox people I've known were cradles whereas I've seen new converts leave after just a year or two in the church.

I just feel like there are too many people who want a "don't ask, don't tell" policy and want to ignore the truth. There are also some people who don't think it is the business of the Priest to inquire into a person's life or theological viewpoints. They also don't think it's the Priest's business to refuse communion to someone because they disagree with the Church, or because they do something the Priest doesn't agree with.

I don't go up and correct fellow Orthodox in Church because it isn't my place as a layperson. I may calmly and lovingly tell them that they aren't in conformity with the rest of Orthodoxy, or that they need to talk to the Priest about it. I also might eventually have to confront the Priest about it privately. But it is something we have to deal with, no matter if we are in the "old country" or in the "new world".

But it's okay on the internet for you to do it in a very confrontational manner?

Thanks for outing yourself as an internet bully.

Transmission of signals between the brain and the fingers is much faster than the brain to the mouth and it is much easier to speak without a filter through the internet when communication is instantaneous and relatively anonymous, when you don't know the person personally and aren't speaking to them face-to-face. I admit this fault, and I feel it is a fault we all face and have to fight, and I admit I'm not that good at having a filter, I never have been good at it.

I still feel I am right in what I say, even though it may not be in the nicest manner and though it may not be in the most Christian manner, and though it may be polemical, confrontational and aggressive. I may regret acting in such a manner, but my theological stance still stands.
What use is there in being right if you turn everyone against you through your hostility?

And cause people to associate Orthodoxy with being a jerk.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 05, 2012, 04:09:43 PM
Can you answer me why it is that those who are in our church and espousing liberal views are composed of mostly cradles? (obviously I'm not saying all cradles are like this?)

I've talked to a woman who favored women's ordination to the Priesthood. She was a cradle...
I've talked to a man who disagrees with closed communion and thinks we should commune all Christians. He was a cradle...
I've talked to another woman who favored homosexual marriage in the church. She was a cradle...
I've talked to another man who thought he was qualified to serve the Liturgy because he had "seen it his whole life" and could "do just a good a job as the Priest"... He was a cradle...
I've talked to yet another woman who wanted to dress up like a man and sneak onto Mount Athos to shamelessly defy the ban on females there. She was a cradle...
I've talked to yet another man who wanted me to question our church's stance against ecumenism (inter-communion and con-celebration) and the Roman Catholic Church. He was a cradle...

Explain that to me, and why we should tolerate such people who openly defy and disagree with our church (with absolutely no regrets). Explain to my why I haven't encountered converts (and I'm talking baptized Orthodox converts) who feel this way?

You know, there is a reason we only have about 800,000-900,000 Orthodox Christians in North America. We cannot count the "baptized" who never attend church more than every few years, they simply aren't Orthodox Christians. That is why we don't have several million Orthodox in the United States, we don't even have a million.

I would rather we remain a smaller church with traditionally minded people or people willing to become traditionally minded rather than a bigger church with liberal, "progressive" minded people who openly disagree with the church without shame.

This just shows that instead of packing our bags and doing Missionary work in far away lands....we need to start in our own parishes.

I've encountered some of these people.   Even children and grandchildren of priests....who say "it's all the same, God is one."

They simply don't know, or don't care.  These are the lost lambs, which we need to educate.



That is exactly the way I feel. I also know it isn't just cradles, but I was trying to make a point since the person had made a charge against us so-called "hyperdox fanatics" as just being zealous new converts.

Some of the most Orthodox people I've known were cradles whereas I've seen new converts leave after just a year or two in the church.

I just feel like there are too many people who want a "don't ask, don't tell" policy and want to ignore the truth. There are also some people who don't think it is the business of the Priest to inquire into a person's life or theological viewpoints. They also don't think it's the Priest's business to refuse communion to someone because they disagree with the Church, or because they do something the Priest doesn't agree with.

I don't go up and correct fellow Orthodox in Church because it isn't my place as a layperson. I may calmly and lovingly tell them that they aren't in conformity with the rest of Orthodoxy, or that they need to talk to the Priest about it. I also might eventually have to confront the Priest about it privately. But it is something we have to deal with, no matter if we are in the "old country" or in the "new world".

But it's okay on the internet for you to do it in a very confrontational manner?

Thanks for outing yourself as an internet bully.

Transmission of signals between the brain and the fingers is much faster than the brain to the mouth and it is much easier to speak without a filter through the internet when communication is instantaneous and relatively anonymous, when you don't know the person personally and aren't speaking to them face-to-face. I admit this fault, and I feel it is a fault we all face and have to fight, and I admit I'm not that good at having a filter, I never have been good at it.

I still feel I am right in what I say, even though it may not be in the nicest manner and though it may not be in the most Christian manner, and though it may be polemical, confrontational and aggressive. I may regret acting in such a manner, but my theological stance still stands.

Elder Porphyrios said that one can have golden crowns, but if one throws them and breaks people's heads, no good is accomplished.

it is also incredibly easy when you are only reading text and putting your own interpretation and context behind it without any visual feedback based on body language and voice inflection. You often cannot tell if someone is being honest, sarcastic, hostile, supportive etc...

Heck, I talked to a woman yesterday who I was having a nice conversation with, even though what she "had read" was very wrong. She started in on how corrupt the early Church was and the many examples of violence by early Christians and the "Catholic Church". I bit my tongue and just hoped that all my Roman Catholic friends in the house didn't think I was agreeing with her. I was a guest and wasn't about to start an argument over something like that.

When you read something online, you want to immediately lash back, that is why trolling is so easy for so many people. I will admit to being a victim of quick reaction and overreaction.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Orthodox11 on July 05, 2012, 04:12:08 PM
Glad to see the tone of the thread has begun to change.

Let us love one another, that with one mind we may confess...

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Pfo3DVrE5cU/T-x2n1GzY-I/AAAAAAAAAYY/FYYbpu0L3J4/s1600/Sts+Peter+and+Paul.jpg)
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: mike on July 05, 2012, 04:15:03 PM
Fair enough.  A good rule of thumb is to walk away from any contentious issue for at least two minutes and when you come back, ask if this how you want to write something.



A friend of mine suggested me to have a pee or a tea before responding to an email.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 05, 2012, 04:28:29 PM
Glad to see the tone of the thread has begun to change.

Let us love one another, that with one mind we may confess...

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Pfo3DVrE5cU/T-x2n1GzY-I/AAAAAAAAAYY/FYYbpu0L3J4/s1600/Sts+Peter+and+Paul.jpg)

Wait!  I thought this thread wasn't about gay marriage???

j/k
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Νεκτάριος on July 05, 2012, 04:44:42 PM
There are times when we must be reminded of one of the single greatest posts in oc.net history:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,8894.msg148800.html#msg148800
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Maria on July 06, 2012, 02:35:00 AM
lol is this real life
Or is this just fantasy?

Caught in a landslide.
No escape from reality
Open your eyes!
Look up to the skies and see...

Lord have mercy.
What? You don't like the Bohemian Rhapsody?

Okay, enough frivolity, everyone. Time to get back on topic. :police:

I was praying for Devin.
Denying Christ (apostasy) is a serious sin.

p.s. I am glad to see that he has now calmed down.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: jmbejdl on July 06, 2012, 04:12:03 AM

When I see people openly disagreeing with the Church, it distresses me because it shows that they are possibly not receiving proper catechism, or not receiving proper care. Maybe they are, and they just aren't paying attention or accepting it, who knows. But the fact is that those people exist and our pastors need to do something about it. Doing something about it isn't "strict' or being "Pharisaical", it is doing the job that is given to our clergy.

I don't disagree, but perhaps you should leave it to the clergy? Or failing that, maybe you could at least temper your fervour for the Faith with some of the love that is expected to be a fruit of it?

James
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: mike on July 06, 2012, 04:27:09 AM
Patriarch Cyrill wasn't disgusted with female altar servers in sticharions when he was in Damascus.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: William on July 06, 2012, 04:38:26 AM
There are times when we must be reminded of one of the single greatest posts in oc.net history:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,8894.msg148800.html#msg148800

The creator of which later went on to become a militant atheist.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: jmbejdl on July 06, 2012, 04:56:30 AM

When I see people openly disagreeing with the Church, it distresses me because it shows that they are possibly not receiving proper catechism, or not receiving proper care. Maybe they are, and they just aren't paying attention or accepting it, who knows. But the fact is that those people exist and our pastors need to do something about it. Doing something about it isn't "strict' or being "Pharisaical", it is doing the job that is given to our clergy.

I don't disagree, but perhaps you should leave it to the clergy? Or failing that, maybe you could at least temper your fervour for the Faith with some of the love that is expected to be a fruit of it?

James

I tried to edit this with the following but got a time out:

EDIT:
And now I see that I too am guilty of jumping on a post with too much haste. Heartfelt apologies as I had not read to the end of the thread and it appears that you have accepted that your approach was wrong. I must say that I never really disagreed with the fact that you were opposed to alter girls and the likely, simply the way in which you expressed that opposition. I am not sure that I agree with your reasoning in every instance but I am certainly opposed to innovations in the Church as I see you are.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 06, 2012, 10:30:07 AM
There are times when we must be reminded of one of the single greatest posts in oc.net history:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,8894.msg148800.html#msg148800

The creator of which later went on to become a militant atheist.
And why does that matter? He was still a Christian when he submitted that post.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Orthodox11 on July 06, 2012, 10:51:04 AM
And why does that matter? He was still a Christian when he submitted that post.

What does it matter either way? Truth is truth, reason is reason, no matter whose mouth it comes out of. Getting an outsider's perspective can often be very helpful when trying to articulate a particular argument.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Marc1152 on July 06, 2012, 10:52:59 AM
We have a very small Mission Church in an office park. The altar area is very tight and the Church office is right on the other side of  thin wood. The "Doors" are made of red cloth.

A couple of times Women have had to pass something in or have said something to me while I am in the altar area.

All of a sudden I was startled to hear a voice saying my name "Marc?"  ( in an eerie tone which sounded to me more like Maaaaaarrrc ?)

To which I respond ( both times this has happened)... "Yes Lord, I am here".. It  was a Female Voice asking for me which prompted the thought:

 "Oh crap, God's a Woman"    
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 06, 2012, 11:53:44 AM
Patriarch Cyrill wasn't disgusted with female altar servers in sticharions when he was in Damascus.

Maybe he was seething inwardly, thinking of the tears being shed over it in Holy Russia?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: augustin717 on July 06, 2012, 01:20:48 PM
We have a very small Mission Church in an office park. The altar area is very tight and the Church office is right on the other side of  thin wood. The "Doors" are made of red cloth.

A couple of times Women have had to pass something in or have said something to me while I am in the altar area.

All of a sudden I was startled to hear a voice saying my name "Marc?"  ( in an eerie tone which sounded to me more like Maaaaaarrrc ?)

To which I respond ( both times this has happened)... "Yes Lord, I am here".. It  was a Female Voice asking for me which prompted the thought:

 "Oh crap, God's a Woman"    
Like the joke goes: "Good news : God exists and she's a lesbian!"
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: orthonorm on July 06, 2012, 01:42:11 PM
I am a fool to have ignored this thread till nowish.

A lot of gems here.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: vamrat on July 06, 2012, 02:16:16 PM
As much as I would love to have more flirting opportunities... I'm not sure if this is the proper mindset to have back behind the Iconostasis.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: LizaSymonenko on July 06, 2012, 03:16:54 PM
Patriarch Cyrill wasn't disgusted with female altar servers in sticharions when he was in Damascus.

Does Patriarch Cyrill dictate what is acceptable in all of Orthodoxy?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Ortho_cat on July 06, 2012, 03:44:00 PM
ya i didn't think women/girls were allowed inside the altar area...even when girls are churched they stop short of the iconostasis.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: HabteSelassie on July 06, 2012, 04:25:38 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

ya i didn't think women/girls were allowed inside the altar area...even when girls are churched they stop short of the iconostasis.

They aren't.  That is why this entire thread has been one big straw-man hyperbole, and we've all given into Devin's trolling.

The church in question from the OP thread DOES NOT let girls into the altar.  There is confusion about their attire, and that is indeed debatable, but as to the question of female ordination, or women of any age entering the Altar, or even gay marriage, none  of it relevant, because none of it is occurring in the Orthodox Church, at the least, not in the parish in question of this thread.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: LizaSymonenko on July 06, 2012, 04:34:01 PM

Do we know that for a fact?  Did someone get a response to their email?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: LizaSymonenko on July 06, 2012, 04:36:54 PM

...and don't be too hard on Devin. He's just trying to defend the Faith as best he knows how.

We could use some more folks with fervor like his...only slightly tempered.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: HabteSelassie on July 06, 2012, 04:41:28 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Good grief guys you need to settle down. This is one of the parishes I regularly attend and the girls do not enter the altar. They sit in the front pew with lamps, meet the procession during the Great Entrance and then go right back over and sit down.

Reply 38 resolved this issue all the way back on the first page ;)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: LizaSymonenko on July 06, 2012, 04:42:24 PM

;D  Excellent!
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: JamesRottnek on July 06, 2012, 07:11:21 PM
As much as I would love to have more flirting opportunities... I'm not sure if this is the proper mindset to have back behind the Iconostasis.

So stay in front of it if you are incapable of taking your mind off women.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Marc1152 on July 07, 2012, 11:26:50 AM

Do we know that for a fact?  Did someone get a response to their email?

I got an auto reply that he is away until September . There was an alternate address but I have not written again.

Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Marc1152 on July 07, 2012, 11:28:08 AM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Good grief guys you need to settle down. This is one of the parishes I regularly attend and the girls do not enter the altar. They sit in the front pew with lamps, meet the procession during the Great Entrance and then go right back over and sit down.

Reply 38 resolved this issue all the way back on the first page ;)

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Are they vested?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 07, 2012, 12:19:36 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Good grief guys you need to settle down. This is one of the parishes I regularly attend and the girls do not enter the altar. They sit in the front pew with lamps, meet the procession during the Great Entrance and then go right back over and sit down.

Reply 38 resolved this issue all the way back on the first page ;)

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Are they vested?

I think a lot of the argument since page one has been about whether or not they should be wearing sticharion.

Yes, the girls are vested in sticharion...
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on May 09, 2016, 02:50:53 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/I5dcRo9.jpg)

Source (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.695833123853737.1073743305.292018570901863&type=3)
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Agabus on May 09, 2016, 03:57:45 PM
Now why you gotta go do that, Mor?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on May 09, 2016, 04:00:00 PM
Now why you gotta go do that, Mor?

I saw the photo and thought "I have to post this in an altar girl thread in the Liturgy board and give arimethea a hard time", but when I found a thread and hit "post", I saw that the thread was in my section.  Oh well. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Orest on May 10, 2016, 12:27:26 PM
I understand that there are also pictures on the internet of the Patriarch of Antioch & alter girls as well. I guess it is standard practice in the "old country" but not in North America.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: NicholasMyra on May 11, 2016, 02:59:28 AM
http://i.imgur.com/I5dcRo9.jpg

Source (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.695833123853737.1073743305.292018570901863&type=3)
Axia. Now how about some deaconesses?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: William T on May 11, 2016, 09:49:35 AM
I understand that there are also pictures on the internet of the Patriarch of Antioch & alter girls as well. I guess it is standard practice in the "old country" but not in North America.

I've seen two Antiochian parishes with Alter Girls.  One in Florida the other in South Carolina.  As far as I can tell they were different populations as well; the one was Palestinian the other was Syrian / Lebanese. 

Every year I see some pictures of Easter in Damascus, it looks like they may have female servers (?) as well...but that's "the old country", so I guess that doesn't count towards your point, either way it seems some Antiochian Churches use it in.America.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: William T on May 11, 2016, 09:51:51 AM
http://i.imgur.com/I5dcRo9.jpg

Source (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.695833123853737.1073743305.292018570901863&type=3)
Axia. Now how about some deaconesses?

I think I looked this up before.  If I remember correctly deaconess=/= deacon and the role of the office has been lost, it's a bit of a mystery as to what it was,  so it can't really be brought back.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Iconodule on May 11, 2016, 09:54:05 AM
It has been revived, to a limited extent, in Greek women's monasteries.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: William T on May 11, 2016, 09:59:04 AM
It has been revived, to a limited extent, in Greek women's monasteries.

Interesting, do you have any links?  Do you know what the function of the office is?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Orest on May 11, 2016, 10:09:14 AM

Axia. Now how about some deaconesses?

I think I looked this up before.  If I remember correctly deaconess=/= deacon and the role of the office has been lost, it's a bit of a mystery as to what it was,  so it can't really be brought back.
[/quote]
What do you mean?  There has been so much research on deaconesses and the rite of ordination has been translated into English.  They existed until the 12th century in Byzantium.  Also they exist today with a liturgical function in the Armenian Orthodox Church.  Here is a link to the ordination of deaconesses in Canada in the Syriac Orthodox Church:  http://stjohnsyriacchurchburlington.com/?p=288
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Iconodule on May 11, 2016, 10:18:17 AM
Here's an article about the decision by the Greek synod to ordain deaconesses:

http://americamagazine.org/issue/517/article/grant-her-your-spirit

It might also be worth looking at the ordination rite here:

http://www.anastasis.org.uk/ordinations.htm

It seems they are more-or-less altar servers who can also carry the eucharist to those in need in the community, where males would be unavailable or unwanted for this role.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Orest on May 11, 2016, 10:21:09 AM
Pictures of Armenian Deaconesses including  modern deaconesses:
https://www.google.ca/search?q=Armenian+deaconesses&biw=1680&bih=890&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjsp6jPm9LMAhVK74MKHTLHB3cQsAQIGg
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: FatherGiryus on May 11, 2016, 10:29:50 AM
I understand that there are also pictures on the internet of the Patriarch of Antioch & alter girls as well. I guess it is standard practice in the "old country" but not in North America.

I've seen two Antiochian parishes with Alter Girls.  One in Florida the other in South Carolina.  As far as I can tell they were different populations as well; the one was Palestinian the other was Syrian / Lebanese. 

Every year I see some pictures of Easter in Damascus, it looks like they may have female servers (?) as well...but that's "the old country", so I guess that doesn't count towards your point, either way it seems some Antiochian Churches use it in.America.

Well, the practice is not without controversy in the Middle East, and the Holy Synod of Antioch was divided on the matter.  Patriarch Ignatius seemed to tolerate it because there wasn't a Synodal consensus.  The line was drawn, however, at entering the Altar and so the girls come to the Deacon's doors to get their implements and hand them back in.

It was always explained to me that the practice came in through Latin parishes.  Many Orthodox in the Middle East have, through all the years of wars, become more 'ecumenical' in their experiences.  I imagine it has come in the same way so many of our parishes got pipe organs in the last century.  My sense is that the practice will eventually die out the same way.

There is a further sub-text: Christians are allowed to intermarry across 'denominational' lines, with the wife being expected to 'convert' to her husband's church (except in rare cases where the husband decides to bend and make the leap, though usually with the disapproval of his family and the violation of the familial identity).  I've heard the Altar Girl phenomenon, along with Girl Scouts (a big thing in most of the region) is all about getting young women to stay in the Orthodox Church and demand that their potential suitors be prepared to make the jump instead.  So, some would argue, allowing the girls to walk in processions will somehow make them feel more Orthodox.

I wish that worked on boys.  I've had plenty of Altar Boys go off and do stupid stuff in adulthood.

Metropolitan Philip never 'permitted' the practice, but he also turned a blind eye to a lot of 'local practices' that sprouted up so long as the peace was kept.  Metropolitan Joseph has a lot on his plate right now, and one issue is liturgical reform.  The altar girl issue will eventually be addressed, as will a host of other problems.

Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: William T on May 11, 2016, 10:31:03 AM

Axia. Now how about some deaconesses?

I think I looked this up before.  If I remember correctly deaconess=/= deacon and the role of the office has been lost, it's a bit of a mystery as to what it was,  so it can't really be brought back.
What do you mean?  There has been so much research on deaconesses and the rite of ordination has been translated into English.  They existed until the 12th century in Byzantium.  Also they exist today with a liturgical function in the Armenian Orthodox Church.  Here is a link to the ordination of deaconesses in Canada in the Syriac Orthodox Church:  http://stjohnsyriacchurchburlington.com/?p=288
[/quote]

[/i]
Sorry, If I've looked this up before it was once long ago so my memory isn't good on it nor is it an.issue I've thought much about.  A generic search for Orthodox Deaconess i figured wouldn't be helpful.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Orest on May 11, 2016, 10:32:50 AM
Here's an article about the decision by the Greek synod to ordain deaconesses:

http://americamagazine.org/issue/517/article/grant-her-your-spirit

It might also be worth looking at the ordination rite here:

http://www.anastasis.org.uk/ordinations.htm

It seems they are more-or-less altar servers who can also carry the eucharist to those in need in the community, where males would be unavailable or unwanted for this role.
This site has a wealth of information:http://orthodoxdeaconess.org/

See for example: Prayers for the Deaconess ordination: http://orthodoxdeaconess.org/prayers-at-the-deaconess-ordination/

The decision to restore the ordination of deaconesses by the Church of Greece in 2004:  http://orthodoxdeaconess.org/contemporary-orthodox-deaconesses/church-of-greece-restores-diaconate-for-women/
This is a good summary of modern call for the restoration of deaconesses starting with the Russian Orthodox Sobor of 1917. 
 http://orthodoxdeaconess.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/ModernCallsFor-Diaconate.pdf
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: William T on May 11, 2016, 10:48:49 AM
I understand that there are also pictures on the internet of the Patriarch of Antioch & alter girls as well. I guess it is standard practice in the "old country" but not in North America.

I've seen two Antiochian parishes with Alter Girls.  One in Florida the other in South Carolina.  As far as I can tell they were different populations as well; the one was Palestinian the other was Syrian / Lebanese. 

Every year I see some pictures of Easter in Damascus, it looks like they may have female servers (?) as well...but that's "the old country", so I guess that doesn't count towards your point, either way it seems some Antiochian Churches use it in.America.

Well, the practice is not without controversy in the Middle East, and the Holy Synod of Antioch was divided on the matter.  Patriarch Ignatius seemed to tolerate it because there wasn't a Synodal consensus.  The line was drawn, however, at entering the Altar and so the girls come to the Deacon's doors to get their implements and hand them back in.

It was always explained to me that the practice came in through Latin parishes.  Many Orthodox in the Middle East have, through all the years of wars, become more 'ecumenical' in their experiences.  I imagine it has come in the same way so many of our parishes got pipe organs in the last century.  My sense is that the practice will eventually die out the same way.

There is a further sub-text: Christians are allowed to intermarry across 'denominational' lines, with the wife being expected to 'convert' to her husband's church (except in rare cases where the husband decides to bend and make the leap, though usually with the disapproval of his family and the violation of the familial identity).  I've heard the Altar Girl phenomenon, along with Girl Scouts (a big thing in most of the region) is all about getting young women to stay in the Orthodox Church and demand that their potential suitors be prepared to make the jump instead.  So, some would argue, allowing the girls to walk in processions will somehow make them feel more Orthodox.

I wish that worked on boys.  I've had plenty of Altar Boys go off and do stupid stuff in adulthood.

Metropolitan Philip never 'permitted' the practice, but he also turned a blind eye to a lot of 'local practices' that sprouted up so long as the peace was kept.  Metropolitan Joseph has a lot on his plate right now, and one issue is liturgical reform.  The altar girl issue will eventually be addressed, as will a host of other problems.



I certainly went off and did stupid things since I quit being an alter boy at 15.  I think at that age I never set foot in an Orthodox Church for around ten years other than a wedding/ funeral or two.  Who knows though, maybe in the long run it worked, even though I'm still prone to gooff and do stupid things once in awhile.

 As for the pictures I saw from Damascus, it's not clear to me they are alter girls.  The pictures are all large procession photos outside and it's hard to make out exactly what I'm looking at.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on May 11, 2016, 10:54:57 AM
Here is a link to the ordination of deaconesses in Canada in the Syriac Orthodox Church:  http://stjohnsyriacchurchburlington.com/?p=288

One problem in these discussions is the lack of precision in use of terms. 

Among the EO, the word "deacon" is almost exclusively used to refer specifically to the order of deacon, whereas it has become common among the OO to use the word to refer not only to those of the order of deacon, but also more generally to all  "major" or "minor" orders "below" those of bishop or presbyter.  The use of "deaconess" roughly follows this pattern across the traditions. 

The photos above are not of the ordination of "deaconesses" in the sense of "female deacons".  They are "deaconesses" in the sense of "female chanters", ordained for ministry in the choir.  It is a mistake to invoke this kind of example to argue for "female deacons" in the EO sense (not that those don't exist among us, but this isn't that).  If there was some push for ordaining women as chanters or readers (something I support), this would probably be a good example of an instance in which the practice was a living tradition and not an archaeological relic.           
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: NicholasMyra on May 11, 2016, 12:21:34 PM
Here's an article about the decision by the Greek synod to ordain deaconesses:

http://americamagazine.org/issue/517/article/grant-her-your-spirit

It might also be worth looking at the ordination rite here:

http://www.anastasis.org.uk/ordinations.htm

It seems they are more-or-less altar servers who can also carry the eucharist to those in need in the community, where males would be unavailable or unwanted for this role.

I'm not sure how you got that conclusion from your second link. As to the first, ehh...
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: NicholasMyra on May 11, 2016, 12:23:04 PM
http://i.imgur.com/I5dcRo9.jpg

Source (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.695833123853737.1073743305.292018570901863&type=3)
Axia. Now how about some deaconesses?

I think I looked this up before.  If I remember correctly deaconess=/= deacon

I think the notion that deacons were ordained while deaconesses were not, and were rather lil' helpers, is a modern fiction.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on May 11, 2016, 12:51:47 PM
http://i.imgur.com/I5dcRo9.jpg

Source (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.695833123853737.1073743305.292018570901863&type=3)
Axia. Now how about some deaconesses?

I think I looked this up before.  If I remember correctly deaconess=/= deacon

I think the notion that deacons were ordained while deaconesses were not, and were rather lil' helpers, is a modern fiction.

Sure, but on the flip side, the equivalence between male deacons and female deacons based on the ordination rite Iconodule linked can be overstated. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Iconodule on May 11, 2016, 12:56:36 PM
Here's an article about the decision by the Greek synod to ordain deaconesses:

http://americamagazine.org/issue/517/article/grant-her-your-spirit

It might also be worth looking at the ordination rite here:

http://www.anastasis.org.uk/ordinations.htm

It seems they are more-or-less altar servers who can also carry the eucharist to those in need in the community, where males would be unavailable or unwanted for this role.

I'm not sure how you got that conclusion from your second link. As to the first, ehh...

Well, if someone has reports or video of a deaconess reciting litanies, reading the Gospel, etc. I would be happy to stand corrected.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: NicholasMyra on May 11, 2016, 01:15:30 PM
Here's an article about the decision by the Greek synod to ordain deaconesses:

http://americamagazine.org/issue/517/article/grant-her-your-spirit

It might also be worth looking at the ordination rite here:

http://www.anastasis.org.uk/ordinations.htm

It seems they are more-or-less altar servers who can also carry the eucharist to those in need in the community, where males would be unavailable or unwanted for this role.

I'm not sure how you got that conclusion from your second link. As to the first, ehh...

Well, if someone has reports or video of a deaconess reciting litanies, reading the Gospel, etc. I would be happy to stand corrected.
I was referring to the historical practice rather than the modern practice. Plus, given the traditional taxis, whenever male deacons were present the deaconesses wouldn't be reading.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: NicholasMyra on May 11, 2016, 01:16:03 PM
http://i.imgur.com/I5dcRo9.jpg

Source (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.695833123853737.1073743305.292018570901863&type=3)
Axia. Now how about some deaconesses?

I think I looked this up before.  If I remember correctly deaconess=/= deacon

I think the notion that deacons were ordained while deaconesses were not, and were rather lil' helpers, is a modern fiction.

Sure, but on the flip side, the equivalence between male deacons and female deacons based on the ordination rite Iconodule linked can be overstated.
If they were equivalent, we'd leave off the -ess/issa. ;)
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: DeniseDenise on May 11, 2016, 01:22:25 PM
http://i.imgur.com/I5dcRo9.jpg

Source (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.695833123853737.1073743305.292018570901863&type=3)
Axia. Now how about some deaconesses?

I think I looked this up before.  If I remember correctly deaconess=/= deacon

I think the notion that deacons were ordained while deaconesses were not, and were rather lil' helpers, is a modern fiction.

Sure, but on the flip side, the equivalence between male deacons and female deacons based on the ordination rite Iconodule linked can be overstated.
If they were equivalent, we'd leave off the -ess/issa. ;)

actually no....


most languages require gender endings so just leaving off the ending while referring to a female is just incorrect language wise.

Just because English doesn't require this, doesn't mean taking it off a word renders it equal, just lazy practice
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: genesisone on May 11, 2016, 01:28:54 PM

Metropolitan Joseph has a lot on his plate right now, and one issue is liturgical reform. 

Now there's a tease for a new thread. I'm interested in knowing where that might be headed.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on May 11, 2016, 01:39:13 PM
Sure, but on the flip side, the equivalence between male deacons and female deacons based on the ordination rite Iconodule linked can be overstated.
If they were equivalent, we'd leave off the -ess/issa. ;)

In Greek, that's exactly what you do. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Orest on May 11, 2016, 02:46:49 PM
Here's an article about the decision by the Greek synod to ordain deaconesses:

http://americamagazine.org/issue/517/article/grant-her-your-spirit

It might also be worth looking at the ordination rite here:

http://www.anastasis.org.uk/ordinations.htm

It seems they are more-or-less altar servers who can also carry the eucharist to those in need in the community, where males would be unavailable or unwanted for this role.

I'm not sure how you got that conclusion from your second link. As to the first, ehh...

Well, if someone has reports or video of a deaconess reciting litanies, reading the Gospel, etc. I would be happy to stand corrected.
I was referring to the historical practice rather than the modern practice. Plus, given the traditional taxis, whenever male deacons were present the deaconesses wouldn't be reading.
I don't understand you conclusion because Hagia Sophia had both deacons and deaconesses at the same service.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: NicholasMyra on May 11, 2016, 04:26:20 PM

In Greek, that's exactly what you do.
So Deaconissa is an english novelty?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: NicholasMyra on May 11, 2016, 04:36:21 PM
http://i.imgur.com/I5dcRo9.jpg

Source (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.695833123853737.1073743305.292018570901863&type=3)
Axia. Now how about some deaconesses?

I think I looked this up before.  If I remember correctly deaconess=/= deacon

I think the notion that deacons were ordained while deaconesses were not, and were rather lil' helpers, is a modern fiction.

Sure, but on the flip side, the equivalence between male deacons and female deacons based on the ordination rite Iconodule linked can be overstated.
If they were equivalent, we'd leave off the -ess/issa. ;)

actually no....


most languages require gender endings so just leaving off the ending while referring to a female is just incorrect language wise.
There is no re-articulation without a change in meaning.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: NicholasMyra on May 11, 2016, 04:36:57 PM
Here's an article about the decision by the Greek synod to ordain deaconesses:

http://americamagazine.org/issue/517/article/grant-her-your-spirit

It might also be worth looking at the ordination rite here:

http://www.anastasis.org.uk/ordinations.htm

It seems they are more-or-less altar servers who can also carry the eucharist to those in need in the community, where males would be unavailable or unwanted for this role.

I'm not sure how you got that conclusion from your second link. As to the first, ehh...

Well, if someone has reports or video of a deaconess reciting litanies, reading the Gospel, etc. I would be happy to stand corrected.
I was referring to the historical practice rather than the modern practice. Plus, given the traditional taxis, whenever male deacons were present the deaconesses wouldn't be reading.
I don't understand you conclusion because Hagia Sophia had both deacons and deaconesses at the same service.
What I'm saying is, if deacons and deaconesses were both present, the deacon would be the one reading, amirite?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on May 11, 2016, 04:38:30 PM

In Greek, that's exactly what you do.
So Deaconissa is an english novelty?

IIRC, the ordained female deacon is ἡ διάκονος, not διακόνισσα.  Whether or not the rules of English require "deaconess" to translate the former I don't know, but in any case I don't think the two terms are necessarily equivalent.   
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on May 11, 2016, 04:39:30 PM
What I'm saying is, if deacons and deaconesses were both present, the deacon would be the one reading, amirite?

What if no deacons were present, only deaconesses?  Who would read? 
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: DeniseDenise on May 11, 2016, 04:39:54 PM
http://i.imgur.com/I5dcRo9.jpg

Source (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.695833123853737.1073743305.292018570901863&type=3)
Axia. Now how about some deaconesses?

I think I looked this up before.  If I remember correctly deaconess=/= deacon

I think the notion that deacons were ordained while deaconesses were not, and were rather lil' helpers, is a modern fiction.

Sure, but on the flip side, the equivalence between male deacons and female deacons based on the ordination rite Iconodule linked can be overstated.
If they were equivalent, we'd leave off the -ess/issa. ;)

actually no....


most languages require gender endings so just leaving off the ending while referring to a female is just incorrect language wise.
There is no re-articulation without a change in meaning.


so a Murderer is different than a murderess?  (other than in gender)
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: William T on May 11, 2016, 04:45:20 PM
http://i.imgur.com/I5dcRo9.jpg

Source (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.695833123853737.1073743305.292018570901863&type=3)
Axia. Now how about some deaconesses?

I think I looked this up before.  If I remember correctly deaconess=/= deacon

I think the notion that deacons were ordained while deaconesses were not, and were rather lil' helpers, is a modern fiction.

How does my comment imply anything about ordination?  All I meant was that I thought deaconess =/= deacon as priestess = priest.

My guess is any scant info I may have lingering in my head about deaconesses is probably from some book I own on Byzantine history, random Catholic School classes I took, the Catholic encyclopedia, Wikipedia, or if some early Church Father like St Ignatius mentioned them in one of his writings.

What do you think a deaconess is (or was), and why?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: NicholasMyra on May 11, 2016, 05:26:37 PM
http://i.imgur.com/I5dcRo9.jpg

Source (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.695833123853737.1073743305.292018570901863&type=3)
Axia. Now how about some deaconesses?

I think I looked this up before.  If I remember correctly deaconess=/= deacon

I think the notion that deacons were ordained while deaconesses were not, and were rather lil' helpers, is a modern fiction.

Sure, but on the flip side, the equivalence between male deacons and female deacons based on the ordination rite Iconodule linked can be overstated.
If they were equivalent, we'd leave off the -ess/issa. ;)

actually no....


most languages require gender endings so just leaving off the ending while referring to a female is just incorrect language wise.
There is no re-articulation without a change in meaning.


so a Murderer is different than a murderess?  (other than in gender)
Yes.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: NicholasMyra on May 11, 2016, 05:26:48 PM
What I'm saying is, if deacons and deaconesses were both present, the deacon would be the one reading, amirite?

What if no deacons were present, only deaconesses?  Who would read?
Dunno
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: NicholasMyra on May 11, 2016, 05:27:06 PM
http://i.imgur.com/I5dcRo9.jpg

Source (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.695833123853737.1073743305.292018570901863&type=3)
Axia. Now how about some deaconesses?

I think I looked this up before.  If I remember correctly deaconess=/= deacon

I think the notion that deacons were ordained while deaconesses were not, and were rather lil' helpers, is a modern fiction.

How does my comment imply anything about ordination?  All I meant was that I thought deaconess =/= deacon as priestess = priest.

Ah.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Volnutt on May 11, 2016, 05:47:27 PM
http://i.imgur.com/I5dcRo9.jpg

Source (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.695833123853737.1073743305.292018570901863&type=3)
Axia. Now how about some deaconesses?

I think I looked this up before.  If I remember correctly deaconess=/= deacon

I think the notion that deacons were ordained while deaconesses were not, and were rather lil' helpers, is a modern fiction.

Sure, but on the flip side, the equivalence between male deacons and female deacons based on the ordination rite Iconodule linked can be overstated.
If they were equivalent, we'd leave off the -ess/issa. ;)

actually no....


most languages require gender endings so just leaving off the ending while referring to a female is just incorrect language wise.
There is no re-articulation without a change in meaning.


so a Murderer is different than a murderess?  (other than in gender)
Yes.

What's the difference?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: JamesRottnek on May 11, 2016, 06:16:18 PM
Public perception, for one thing
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on May 11, 2016, 06:17:13 PM
Here is something interesting and encouraging (I like this very much).

From the web site of the GOARCH Atlanta cathedral church of Annunciation:

http://www.atlgoc.org/ministries/handmaidens.html (http://www.atlgoc.org/ministries/handmaidens.html)

Text and photos below are from the website and internal links.

Handmaidens

Membership open to: 4th Grade thru 12th Grade girls.

Purpose:   The Handmaidens is a sisterhood of young women, modeled after the ministry of the Theotokos, the Myrrhbearers, and the other women saints, and intended to allow girls to grow together in service, prayer and purity.  They participate in special aspects of some services and meet for other activities.

Maphorion

The office of the Deaconesses constitutes an ancient tradition of the Church
deriving from the Apostolic Period. From the book of Acts (6:17) we learn
about the choosing and the ordination of the first seven male deacons of the
Church.

As the surviving sources testify from this period this priestly office was given
equally both to men and women.  St. Paul in his Letter to the Romans presents
Phoebe (Φοίβη) as an exemplary Deaconess of the Church.

In the third century AD, as Origen and Clement of Alexandria wrote,
Deaconesses ministered to the churches throughout Palestine, Asia Minor and
Balkan Peninsula.  This office kept thriving in the Church in the Byzantine era,
according to the information we get from Emperor Constantine’s VII writings
(10th century), Emperor Alexios Comnenos biography (11th century) and
Theodore Balsamon’s commentary on the Holy Canons (12th century). 

Over the centuries of the decline of the Byzantine Empire and the Ottoman oppression the ministry of Deaconesses fell into disuse, while male Deacons were demoted to serving the Bishop.

In modern times, striving to unite ourselves with the hearty and unadorned piety of the Early Church we acknowledge the need for women in the ministries of the Church. That’s why, with our Cathedral’s ministry, St. Kyriaki Handmaidens, we welcome the young girls, distinctive for their devotion and we have appointed them to assist in various ways in the divine services.  Their vestments, which appears as a white cape is called a “Maphorion” and it was the garment of the Deaconesses in the ancient Church.  Similarly, the Altar Boy vestments resemble those of the deacon.  Many women saints of the Church are depicted wearing it.

Therefore let us always wear the Maphorion with honor, distinction, and piety as we serve Christ and his Holy Church."

From the Handbook:

"What do the Handmaidens Do?

Handmaidens assist in many areas including:
 Welcoming our visitors to the Cathedral
 Assist with ushering as well as assisting the elderly to a seat
 Hand out the Sunday Worship Guides to the people as they enter the Cathedral
 Hand out the Sunday Bulletins at the end of the Liturgy as the people leave
 Bring red votive candles to the stands in front of the Cathedral
 Assist with preparing the Koliva and Arto for distribution after the Liturgy
 Help with cleaning the Narthex after services
 Help with cleaning the pews, restoring the books & other items to their proper places
 Participating in Processions as defined by the Clergy
 Learning to make Prosforo with their parents and offer as needed
 Assist with the readings in the Liturgical Services
 Offer hospitality, flowers, etc. to our visiting Hierarchs and Dignitaries
 Replenish Holy Water Bottles"

There is a nice picture of male servers, handmaidens wearing the maphorion and other handmaidens in white dresses who are carrying flower baskets for the Holy Friday procession.  See at https://www.flickr.com/photos/98663764@N08/sets/72157651732545803/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/98663764@N08/sets/72157651732545803/)

Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Antonis on May 11, 2016, 06:45:43 PM
Beautiful, thank you for sharing!

I admire many of Metropolitan Alexios' initiatives.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: NicholasMyra on May 11, 2016, 08:31:42 PM
We should really dispense with this Politically-Correct "servant of God" "handmaiden of God" nonsense.

Translate it properly. The Muslims do it with abdu-. We can't afford a translation gap.   8) 8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: William T on May 14, 2016, 02:03:48 PM
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z5K-rZoMQhY

Manhattan Transfer
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on May 14, 2016, 02:09:16 PM
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z5K-rZoMQhY

Manhattan Transfer

What does this have to do with the discussion?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: William T on May 15, 2016, 07:46:18 PM
Sorry delete that, i posted that in the wrong thread..I must've had multiple windows open.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on June 01, 2016, 04:56:52 PM
There has been so much research on deaconesses and the rite of ordination has been translated into English.  They existed until the 12th century in Byzantium.  Also they exist today with a liturgical function in the Armenian Orthodox Church. 

Deaconess reading the Gospel during the Divine Liturgy (https://www.facebook.com/ortakoymeryemanakilisesi/videos/1033845960018183/)

:)
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Alpo on June 01, 2016, 05:08:16 PM
^Interesting. I don't think various Protestants have that in mind when advocating female priesthood. I wonder if there's pre-1900's for deaconesses reading the epistle.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Dominika on June 01, 2016, 05:41:42 PM
There has been so much research on deaconesses and the rite of ordination has been translated into English.  They existed until the 12th century in Byzantium.  Also they exist today with a liturgical function in the Armenian Orthodox Church. 

Deaconess reading the Gospel during the Divine Liturgy (https://www.facebook.com/ortakoymeryemanakilisesi/videos/1033845960018183/)

:)


Beatiful. Traditional Catholics that are angry at pope Francis again, now because of the female deaconess issue, should see this movie - they're often very pro-Armenian.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Orest on June 02, 2016, 10:30:23 AM
There has been so much research on deaconesses and the rite of ordination has been translated into English.  They existed until the 12th century in Byzantium.  Also they exist today with a liturgical function in the Armenian Orthodox Church. 

Deaconess reading the Gospel during the Divine Liturgy (https://www.facebook.com/ortakoymeryemanakilisesi/videos/1033845960018183/)

:)


Beatiful. Traditional Catholics that are angry at pope Francis again, now because of the female deaconess issue, should see this movie - they're often very pro-Armenian.
Fantastic: can you give is the name of the Church and location?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Valden on July 20, 2016, 12:41:58 PM
At my former church the priest (an Archpriest ordained under Moscow) said the main qualification for entering the altar is "you have a very good reason to be there." He said that some priests have their Matushkas clean behind the altar with them (maybe because the parish is small and doesn't have anyone else to help).

There is even a part of the service for consecrating a new altar-table, in which all parishioners (men, women and children) are allowed to go in the sanctuary and venerate the altar before its first liturgy:

(https://scontent.ford1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/180205_374769279253910_2131700629_n.jpg?oh=805c3c053a40c912be88c367099afb5d&oe=5830F0E4)
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 20, 2016, 12:46:03 PM
There is even a part of the service for consecrating a new altar-table, in which all parishioners (men, women and children) are allowed to go in the sanctuary and venerate the altar before its first liturgy:

Is this actually a part of the service?  I don't recall seeing it in any rubrics. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Valden on July 20, 2016, 01:03:50 PM
There is even a part of the service for consecrating a new altar-table, in which all parishioners (men, women and children) are allowed to go in the sanctuary and venerate the altar before its first liturgy:

Is this actually a part of the service?  I don't recall seeing it in any rubrics.

The caption posted with the picture says:
"In a very interesting part of the service, every man, woman, and child was allowed into the sanctuary to venerate the new altar before the first divine liturgy was served."

More than that, I don't know!
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: scamandrius on July 20, 2016, 04:56:05 PM
There is even a part of the service for consecrating a new altar-table, in which all parishioners (men, women and children) are allowed to go in the sanctuary and venerate the altar before its first liturgy:

Is this actually a part of the service?  I don't recall seeing it in any rubrics.

This happened at my church several years ago.  The actual consecration was part of the Orthros.  The night before all the parishioners present, man or woman, was permitted to walk behind the altar to see the compartment in which two scrolls of names--one for the living and one of the reposed--would be placed.  This occurred after Great Vespers.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: hecma925 on July 21, 2016, 01:45:53 AM
Now I have to see a consecration.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: biro on July 21, 2016, 02:22:20 AM
At my parish, you have to go up to the margin of the altar area to put large candles (the memorial ones) in the display. You have no other choice, that's where the holder is. I always feel weird going there, like I'm doing something wrong.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 21, 2016, 09:20:02 AM
There is even a part of the service for consecrating a new altar-table, in which all parishioners (men, women and children) are allowed to go in the sanctuary and venerate the altar before its first liturgy:

Is this actually a part of the service?  I don't recall seeing it in any rubrics.

This happened at my church several years ago.  The actual consecration was part of the Orthros.  The night before all the parishioners present, man or woman, was permitted to walk behind the altar to see the compartment in which two scrolls of names--one for the living and one of the reposed--would be placed.  This occurred after Great Vespers.

I've seen a variation of that, too.  Our consecrations occur in two parts, one following Vespers and the other following the next day's Matins.  I've seen people given a chance to take a look around before the start of Vespers. 

But that photo is something else. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: scamandrius on July 21, 2016, 10:33:51 AM
At my parish, you have to go up to the margin of the altar area to put large candles (the memorial ones) in the display. You have no other choice, that's where the holder is. I always feel weird going there, like I'm doing something wrong.

Why doesn't the church move it back?  Do you have a picture so I can see exactly what you mean?
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: biro on July 21, 2016, 11:07:50 AM
At my parish, you have to go up to the margin of the altar area to put large candles (the memorial ones) in the display. You have no other choice, that's where the holder is. I always feel weird going there, like I'm doing something wrong.

Why doesn't the church move it back?  Do you have a picture so I can see exactly what you mean?

Sorry, I do not have a photo at the moment. I will try to get one later.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: hecma925 on November 30, 2016, 07:50:47 AM
(http://www.nycathedral.org/images/acolytes.jpg)

OCA Cathedral in NYC
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Orest on November 30, 2016, 09:31:57 AM
Thanks.
Also I have noticed the former web site for the ordination of a deaconess is not longer functioning.
However, you can still access it here:

https://web.archive.org/web/20160401074652/http://www.anastasis.org.uk/woman_deacon.htm
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Iconodule on November 30, 2016, 10:09:25 AM
Thanks.
Also I have noticed the former web site for the ordination of a deaconess is not longer functioning.

I'm guessing that's because Fr. Ephrem reposed (last year I think?). It would be unfortunate if no one could step in to maintain the site, as it's got tons of great material.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 30, 2016, 03:09:38 PM
(http://www.nycathedral.org/images/acolytes.jpg)

OCA Cathedral in NYC

AFAIK, those are not "altar girls", unless "altar girl" means "girl who carries candles in the nave once in a while while wearing a funny poncho and giving more conservative people heart palpitations". 
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Iconodule on November 30, 2016, 03:13:12 PM
(http://www.nycathedral.org/images/acolytes.jpg)

OCA Cathedral in NYC

AFAIK, those are not "altar girls", unless "altar girl" means "girl who carries candles in the nave once in a while while wearing a funny poncho and giving more conservative people heart palpitations".

There does, however, seem to be some discontent (http://www.nycathedral.org/news.php?id=158) with the status quo over there.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Bob2 on November 30, 2016, 03:25:41 PM
(http://www.nycathedral.org/images/acolytes.jpg)

OCA Cathedral in NYC

AFAIK, those are not "altar girls", unless "altar girl" means "girl who carries candles in the nave once in a while while wearing a funny poncho and giving more conservative people heart palpitations".

Looks like a short phelonion used in the ordination of a reader.

There does, however, seem to be some discontent (http://www.nycathedral.org/news.php?id=158) with the status quo over there.
from that essay:
Quote
....as discussed for decades, allowing girls to be altar servers in our Churches sends a strong message that their service is valued.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Dominika on November 30, 2016, 03:48:43 PM
Thanks.
Also I have noticed the former web site for the ordination of a deaconess is not longer functioning.

I'm guessing that's because Fr. Ephrem reposed (last year I think?). It would be unfortunate if no one could step in to maintain the site, as it's got tons of great material.

Oh yes, that's a pity. I don't know any other website with so many Orthodox liturgical texts in English, moreover with some explanations.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: hecma925 on December 01, 2016, 01:26:43 AM
(http://www.nycathedral.org/images/acolytes.jpg)

OCA Cathedral in NYC

AFAIK, those are not "altar girls", unless "altar girl" means "girl who carries candles in the nave once in a while while wearing a funny poncho and giving more conservative people heart palpitations".

I know.  They seem to be what Carl referenced in response #340.  I just thought it vaguely interesting that the jpg is labeled "acolytes". 

Ponchos. :laugh:
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Orest on December 01, 2016, 11:56:50 AM
Thanks.
Also I have noticed the former web site for the ordination of a deaconess is not longer functioning.

I'm guessing that's because Fr. Ephrem reposed (last year I think?). It would be unfortunate if no one could step in to maintain the site, as it's got tons of great material.

Oh yes, that's a pity. I don't know any other website with so many Orthodox liturgical texts in English, moreover with some explanations.

Well I just found this one this morning:
http://www.agesinitiatives.com/dcs/public/dcs/dcs.html
It is new to me & I am still exploring it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Dominika on December 01, 2016, 05:13:47 PM
Thanks.
Also I have noticed the former web site for the ordination of a deaconess is not longer functioning.

I'm guessing that's because Fr. Ephrem reposed (last year I think?). It would be unfortunate if no one could step in to maintain the site, as it's got tons of great material.

Oh yes, that's a pity. I don't know any other website with so many Orthodox liturgical texts in English, moreover with some explanations.

Well I just found this one this morning:
http://www.agesinitiatives.com/dcs/public/dcs/dcs.html
It is new to me & I am still exploring it.

Oh, thank you, it looks good :)
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on December 17, 2016, 01:43:36 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/UbGTrTW.jpg)

Source (https://www.facebook.com/HolySee.Cilicia/photos/pcb.1289276931094026/1289274207760965/?type=3&theater)
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Justin Kolodziej on December 17, 2016, 02:26:49 PM
Thanks.
Also I have noticed the former web site for the ordination of a deaconess is not longer functioning.

I'm guessing that's because Fr. Ephrem reposed (last year I think?). It would be unfortunate if no one could step in to maintain the site, as it's got tons of great material.

Oh yes, that's a pity. I don't know any other website with so many Orthodox liturgical texts in English, moreover with some explanations.

Well I just found this one this morning:
http://www.agesinitiatives.com/dcs/public/dcs/dcs.html
It is new to me & I am still exploring it.

Oh, thank you, it looks good :)
That's what my home parish uses for Orthros, so it must be ;)
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: mike on December 30, 2016, 05:29:08 PM
(https://scontent-mad1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/15726730_1298239510246008_4232299746442491442_n.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=d4f558ac11dd77bf4ed1297920a1b4d3&oe=58DBA0B7)

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-IhV6ZNtqDOQ/VXg8DXsUXAI/AAAAAAAABBo/C8iE1HkFAwY/s1600/img1570.PNG)
Title: Re: Orthodox Parish allowing Altar Girls?
Post by: Iconodule on December 30, 2016, 05:31:25 PM
So that's the first picture I've seen of a monastic deaconess, and it's from a schismatic group. Was this reflective of a general practice in 1930's Greece or was it something specific to Matthewites?