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Moderated Forums => Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion => Orthodox-Catholic Discussion => Topic started by: Luckster on May 14, 2012, 09:45:45 PM

Title: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: Luckster on May 14, 2012, 09:45:45 PM
Indulgences have long been associated with the Vatican and the Protestant Reformation. How many in the Church would realize that She also partook in the sale between the 16th and 18th centuries? In fact, it wasn't until 1838 that it was actually condemned. History notes that the sales of "Absolute Certificates" was due to "Latin propaganda".

Article Link (http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/7185.htm)
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: HabteSelassie on May 14, 2012, 10:31:23 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_gz0o6N_abtU/TUwCWAATT7I/AAAAAAAAACw/EboJwyly08s/s1600/woe.jpg)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: Wyatt on May 15, 2012, 01:05:42 PM
Are you sure about that? I could have sworn I read that the selling of indulgences was condemned at the Council of Trent.
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: J Michael on May 15, 2012, 01:23:07 PM
Are you sure about that? I could have sworn I read that the selling of indulgences was condemned at the Council of Trent.

You did.
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: Shanghaiski on May 15, 2012, 02:49:01 PM
Indulgences have long been associated with the Vatican and the Protestant Reformation. How many in the Church would realize that She also partook in the sale between the 16th and 18th centuries? In fact, it wasn't until 1838 that it was actually condemned. History notes that the sales of "Absolute Certificates" was due to "Latin propaganda".

Article Link (http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/7185.htm)

Maybe I missed something, but it doesn't seem that these were "sold." Also, the Roman medieval practice had to do with purgatory, IIRC.

Anyway, given the source, it just seems like more Russian propaganda along the lines of "The Greeks gave us the true faith, and then promptly forgot it."
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: J Michael on May 15, 2012, 02:51:33 PM
Indulgences have long been associated with the Vatican and the Protestant Reformation. How many in the Church would realize that She also partook in the sale between the 16th and 18th centuries? In fact, it wasn't until 1838 that it was actually condemned. History notes that the sales of "Absolute Certificates" was due to "Latin propaganda".

Article Link (http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/7185.htm)

Maybe I missed something, but it doesn't seem that these were "sold." Also, the Roman medieval practice had to do with purgatory, IIRC.

Anyway, given the source, it just seems like more Russian propaganda along the lines of "The Greeks gave us the true faith, and then promptly forgot it."

Russians?  Propaganda???  Is OUTRAGE!  ;D
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: Clemente on May 15, 2012, 04:20:20 PM
Indulgences have long been associated with the Vatican and the Protestant Reformation. How many in the Church would realize that She also partook in the sale between the 16th and 18th centuries? In fact, it wasn't until 1838 that it was actually condemned. History notes that the sales of "Absolute Certificates" was due to "Latin propaganda".

Article Link (http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/7185.htm)

Maybe I missed something, but it doesn't seem that these were "sold." Also, the Roman medieval practice had to do with purgatory, IIRC.

Anyway, given the source, it just seems like more Russian propaganda along the lines of "The Greeks gave us the true faith, and then promptly forgot it."
The amazing thing is that the Vatican still issues indulgences, the main impetus for the Protestant Reformation. These will evidently get you out of a place, purgatory, which Orthodoxy does not believe exists.
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: J Michael on May 15, 2012, 04:29:30 PM
Indulgences have long been associated with the Vatican and the Protestant Reformation. How many in the Church would realize that She also partook in the sale between the 16th and 18th centuries? In fact, it wasn't until 1838 that it was actually condemned. History notes that the sales of "Absolute Certificates" was due to "Latin propaganda".

Article Link (http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/7185.htm)

Maybe I missed something, but it doesn't seem that these were "sold." Also, the Roman medieval practice had to do with purgatory, IIRC.

Anyway, given the source, it just seems like more Russian propaganda along the lines of "The Greeks gave us the true faith, and then promptly forgot it."
The amazing thing is that the Vatican still issues indulgences, the main impetus for the Protestant Reformation. These will evidently get you out of a place, purgatory, which Orthodoxy does not believe exists.

They are granted, as spiritual aids, not "issued".  They are also not sold--to do so is and was the sin of simony, if I'm not mistaken.  They don't get you out of Purgatory, and Purgatory is not a place.

The other "amazing thing" is how much people misunderstand indulgences.  There are multiple threads on this board about them, and a wealth of information on numerous Catholic websites and in numerous books about them for anyone who would like to better educate themselves.
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: elijahmaria on May 15, 2012, 05:17:48 PM

The other "amazing thing" is how much people misunderstand indulgences.  There are multiple threads on this board about them, and a wealth of information on numerous Catholic websites and in numerous books about them for anyone who would like to better educate themselves.

Perish the thought!!... ::)
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: Punch on May 15, 2012, 05:50:59 PM
Why would we read Roman Catholic propaganda justifying what Luther has already taught us is a sin?

Indulgences have long been associated with the Vatican and the Protestant Reformation. How many in the Church would realize that She also partook in the sale between the 16th and 18th centuries? In fact, it wasn't until 1838 that it was actually condemned. History notes that the sales of "Absolute Certificates" was due to "Latin propaganda".

Article Link (http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/7185.htm)

Maybe I missed something, but it doesn't seem that these were "sold." Also, the Roman medieval practice had to do with purgatory, IIRC.

Anyway, given the source, it just seems like more Russian propaganda along the lines of "The Greeks gave us the true faith, and then promptly forgot it."
The amazing thing is that the Vatican still issues indulgences, the main impetus for the Protestant Reformation. These will evidently get you out of a place, purgatory, which Orthodoxy does not believe exists.

They are granted, as spiritual aids, not "issued".  They are also not sold--to do so is and was the sin of simony, if I'm not mistaken.  They don't get you out of Purgatory, and Purgatory is not a place.

The other "amazing thing" is how much people misunderstand indulgences.  There are multiple threads on this board about them, and a wealth of information on numerous Catholic websites and in numerous books about them for anyone who would like to better educate themselves.
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: elijahmaria on May 15, 2012, 06:02:09 PM
Why would we read Roman Catholic propaganda justifying what Luther has already taught us is a sin?



Because what Luther taught was that simony was a sin, NOT indulgences.

But yoo gnu that....right?
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: Melodist on May 15, 2012, 07:37:27 PM
Why would we read Roman Catholic propaganda justifying what Luther has already taught us is a sin?

We're not Luther's disciples. Not justifying or supporting the RC practice of selling indulgences, just saying Luther isn't a part of our Tradition.
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: elijahmaria on May 15, 2012, 07:43:18 PM
Why would we read Roman Catholic propaganda justifying what Luther has already taught us is a sin?

We're not Luther's disciples. Not justifying or supporting the RC practice of selling indulgences, just saying Luther isn't a part of our Tradition.

You are not getting it.  If Luther says that Catholic teaching is sin...well!...then he must be right in any event....

Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: akimori makoto on May 15, 2012, 08:01:52 PM
Indulgences have long been associated with the Vatican and the Protestant Reformation. How many in the Church would realize that She also partook in the sale between the 16th and 18th centuries? In fact, it wasn't until 1838 that it was actually condemned. History notes that the sales of "Absolute Certificates" was due to "Latin propaganda".

Article Link (http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/7185.htm)

Maybe I missed something, but it doesn't seem that these were "sold." Also, the Roman medieval practice had to do with purgatory, IIRC.

Anyway, given the source, it just seems like more Russian propaganda along the lines of "The Greeks gave us the true faith, and then promptly forgot it."

I also got that vibe from the article.

Woe to us who lack the nabedrennik!
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: Peter J on May 15, 2012, 08:24:47 PM
Why would we read Roman Catholic propaganda justifying what Luther has already taught us is a sin?

So you only listen to Lutheran propaganda?

 ;D
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: Punch on May 15, 2012, 08:57:36 PM
Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: elijahmaria on May 15, 2012, 09:08:45 PM
Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Brat!!
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: Aindriú on May 15, 2012, 09:19:31 PM
Pinned for hope of actual discussion of OP.
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: Peter J on May 15, 2012, 09:38:10 PM
Pinned for hope of actual discussion of OP.

I'd say that the OP is quite worthwhile to discuss if the article linked in it is reliable.
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: Aindriú on May 15, 2012, 09:46:52 PM
There are many points I find interesting, and they all revolve around the culture of the Orthodox church, which are consistently blamed on Latin influence and therefore apologetically excused for being ejected from Orthodoxy.
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: J Michael on May 16, 2012, 10:40:12 AM
There are many points I find interesting, and they all revolve around the culture of the Orthodox church, which are consistently blamed on Latin influence and therefore apologetically excused for being ejected from Orthodoxy.

Which would those be?
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: J Michael on May 16, 2012, 10:42:02 AM
Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Hmmm.....Fishing/baiting/trolling?  ;D
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: Peter J on May 16, 2012, 11:38:26 AM
Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Hmmm.....Fishing/baiting/trolling?  ;D

I imagine you're waiting for someone to ask "How so?"

I'm going to pass, but perhaps another poster(s) will oblige you.

 8)
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: J Michael on May 16, 2012, 11:42:52 AM
Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Hmmm.....Fishing/baiting/trolling?  ;D

I imagine you're waiting for someone to ask "How so?"

I'm going to pass, but perhaps another poster(s) will oblige you.

 8)

Your imagination is much too vivid.  8)

The only thing I'm "waiting for" is lunch.  ;D
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: elijahmaria on May 16, 2012, 11:59:19 AM
Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Hmmm.....Fishing/baiting/trolling?  ;D

I imagine you're waiting for someone to ask "How so?"

I'm going to pass, but perhaps another poster(s) will oblige you.

 8)

Your imagination is much too vivid.  8)

The only thing I'm "waiting for" is lunch.  ;D

Well if you have your hook baited properly you prolly won't need to wait too long!!

Happy Trolling!!

Lucy
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: J Michael on May 16, 2012, 12:02:39 PM
Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Hmmm.....Fishing/baiting/trolling?  ;D

I imagine you're waiting for someone to ask "How so?"

I'm going to pass, but perhaps another poster(s) will oblige you.

 8)

Your imagination is much too vivid.  8)

The only thing I'm "waiting for" is lunch.  ;D

Well if you have your hook baited properly you prolly won't need to wait too long!!

Happy Trolling!!

Lucy

LOL!!


Charlie Brown
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: Peter J on May 16, 2012, 12:12:15 PM
Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Hmmm.....Fishing/baiting/trolling?  ;D

I imagine you're waiting for someone to ask "How so?"

I'm going to pass, but perhaps another poster(s) will oblige you.

 8)

Your imagination is much too vivid.  8)

Is it? I imagined that you follow "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." (Most people would take that as a compliment.)
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: elijahmaria on May 16, 2012, 12:19:56 PM
Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Hmmm.....Fishing/baiting/trolling?  ;D

I imagine you're waiting for someone to ask "How so?"

I'm going to pass, but perhaps another poster(s) will oblige you.

 8)

Your imagination is much too vivid.  8)

The only thing I'm "waiting for" is lunch.  ;D

Well if you have your hook baited properly you prolly won't need to wait too long!!

Happy Trolling!!

Lucy

LOL!!


Charlie Brown

What a magnificent obsession!! 

Do you think?

I think...as little as possible!!

Luvs

Lucy
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: J Michael on May 16, 2012, 12:20:52 PM
Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Hmmm.....Fishing/baiting/trolling?  ;D

I imagine you're waiting for someone to ask "How so?"

I'm going to pass, but perhaps another poster(s) will oblige you.

 8)

Your imagination is much too vivid.  8)

Is it? I imagined that you follow "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." (Most people would take that as a compliment.)

That's funny--I didn't read that in your post.  I do attempt to live by that, failing miserably sometimes, but I never "imagined"  that that was what you were talking about.  So much for trying to "read", let alone understand, the imagination of others  :(.

That which I *was* waiting for has arrived, so perhaps now I can wait for that which you imagined, incorrectly, that I was waiting for.  On second thought, I really have far better things to wait for than for "someone to ask 'How so?'".
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: J Michael on May 16, 2012, 12:23:15 PM
Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Hmmm.....Fishing/baiting/trolling?  ;D

I imagine you're waiting for someone to ask "How so?"

I'm going to pass, but perhaps another poster(s) will oblige you.

 8)

Your imagination is much too vivid.  8)

The only thing I'm "waiting for" is lunch.  ;D

Well if you have your hook baited properly you prolly won't need to wait too long!!

Happy Trolling!!

Lucy

LOL!!


Charlie Brown

What a magnificent obsession!!  

Do you think?

I think...as little as possible!!

Luvs

Lucy

Do I think??  I try to avoid it at all costs--it's almost always painful and usually lands me in the pig pen (or worse!)  ;D.


Luvs bak atcha


C.B.

(http://www3.images.coolspotters.com/photos/198256/snoopy-profile.jpg)
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: Peter J on May 16, 2012, 12:32:34 PM
Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Hmmm.....Fishing/baiting/trolling?  ;D

I imagine you're waiting for someone to ask "How so?"

I'm going to pass, but perhaps another poster(s) will oblige you.

 8)

Your imagination is much too vivid.  8)

Is it? I imagined that you follow "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." (Most people would take that as a compliment.)

That's funny--I didn't read that in your post.  I do attempt to live by that, failing miserably sometimes, but I never "imagined"  that that was what you were talking about.  So much for trying to "read", let alone understand, the imagination of others  :(.

That which I *was* waiting for has arrived, so perhaps now I can wait for that which you imagined, incorrectly, that I was waiting for.  On second thought, I really have far better things to wait for than for "someone to ask 'How so?'".

I'm not sure if I've done something to offend you, or what exactly, but after reading your last post, I'm not very optimistic about where this is going. But in any case, I too will be off-line for a while.
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: augustin717 on May 16, 2012, 12:36:09 PM
The Patriarchate of Alexandria at least used to sell indulgences. When i was in school we translated one for fun with a mildly anti-clerical lecturer.
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: J Michael on May 16, 2012, 12:45:49 PM
Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Hmmm.....Fishing/baiting/trolling?  ;D

I imagine you're waiting for someone to ask "How so?"

I'm going to pass, but perhaps another poster(s) will oblige you.

 8)

Your imagination is much too vivid.  8)

Is it? I imagined that you follow "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." (Most people would take that as a compliment.)

That's funny--I didn't read that in your post.  I do attempt to live by that, failing miserably sometimes, but I never "imagined"  that that was what you were talking about.  So much for trying to "read", let alone understand, the imagination of others  :(.

That which I *was* waiting for has arrived, so perhaps now I can wait for that which you imagined, incorrectly, that I was waiting for.  On second thought, I really have far better things to wait for than for "someone to ask 'How so?'".

I'm not sure if I've done something to offend you, or what exactly, but after reading your last post, I'm not very optimistic about where this is going. But in any case, I too will be off-line for a while.

No, PeterJ, no offense taken at all.  Cheer up, this could go anywhere at all, or nowhere at all.  Probably best that it go nowhere at all.

It really is all too easy in a context such as this to misconstrue what others say, to read things into them that aren't there, to imagine something that ends up being just that--an imagination, and to take seriously something that was meant humorously.  That's why the admin has provided us with the emoticons, which some here (not necessarily you, at all) fail to use, thinking that their words on the screen should be enough for anybody--and sometimes they're more than enough for anybody  ;) ;).

Also, taking things out of context and commenting on them, reading meaning that wasn't meant into them can get any of us into trouble with others.

So, having "thought" about this waaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy too much, the pain in my brain is excruciating and we'll all be far better off if I just go back to my yummy salad now  :angel: :angel:.
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: serb1389 on May 16, 2012, 12:54:28 PM
The Patriarchate of Alexandria at least used to sell indulgences. When i was in school we translated one for fun with a mildly anti-clerical lecturer.

would you have a source to this?
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: augustin717 on May 16, 2012, 01:25:52 PM
The Patriarchate of Alexandria at least used to sell indulgences. When i was in school we translated one for fun with a mildly anti-clerical lecturer.

would you have a source to this?
http://www.criticatac.ro/1168/originile-ortodoxe-ale-libertarianismului/gherasim/ (http://www.criticatac.ro/1168/originile-ortodoxe-ale-libertarianismului/gherasim/)
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: serb1389 on May 16, 2012, 01:46:37 PM
The Patriarchate of Alexandria at least used to sell indulgences. When i was in school we translated one for fun with a mildly anti-clerical lecturer.

would you have a source to this?
http://www.criticatac.ro/1168/originile-ortodoxe-ale-libertarianismului/gherasim/ (http://www.criticatac.ro/1168/originile-ortodoxe-ale-libertarianismului/gherasim/)

That's very blurry.  Any way to have it be more clear?  Or another source?  (this is for me personally, not as a moderator). 
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: augustin717 on May 16, 2012, 01:48:19 PM
Well, I do not know in English, but most references I came across with were in Romanian.
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: Punch on May 16, 2012, 01:48:56 PM
Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Brat!!

Guilty!  I can get a bit feisty when I am in a rare good mood  ;)
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: Ortho_cat on May 16, 2012, 01:50:43 PM
i would search the forum for absolution certificates. we have had several threads on these.
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: augustin717 on May 16, 2012, 01:54:49 PM
I also remember that the Patriarch of Jerusalem was in some sort of a tour at the beginning of the 18th century through Wallachia and Moldova (perhaps Russia too?) selling absolution papers in order to raise funds for the patriarchate.
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: Peter J on May 16, 2012, 02:09:20 PM
Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Brat!!

Guilty!  I can get a bit feisty when I am in a rare good mood  ;)

A bit weak, if you ask me -- but then, I'm not a bit fan of trolling in general, so ...
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: serb1389 on May 16, 2012, 02:35:35 PM
i would search the forum for absolution certificates. we have had several threads on these.

the fact that you know this offhand is supremely scary. 
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: Ortho_cat on May 16, 2012, 05:00:08 PM
i would search the forum for absolution certificates. we have had several threads on these.

the fact that you know this offhand is supremely scary. 

i know because i started one of them :) perhaps that is even more scary ;)
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: Peter J on May 16, 2012, 10:15:24 PM
i would search the forum for absolution certificates. we have had several threads on these.

I'm not sure I want to take the time to read an old thread on the subject; but I am a bit curious what your opinion is on the accuracy (or lack thereof) of the article in the OP.
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: ialmisry on May 18, 2012, 01:36:59 PM
Are you sure about that? I could have sworn I read that the selling of indulgences was condemned at the Council of Trent.

You did.
Those running the school I went to and who told us "give a dollar and buy your way into heaven" must have missed that.

So too all those donation requests with promises of heaven, mass intentions, etc. attached....
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: Wyatt on May 18, 2012, 01:38:48 PM
Those running the school I went to and who told us "give a dollar and buy your way into heaven" must have missed that.
Ahh....another unprovable anecdote. I'd begun to think those were gone with Fr. Ambrose. Apparently not.

BTW...an Eastern Orthodox priest killed my uncle. Just sayin'.
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: ialmisry on May 18, 2012, 01:47:01 PM
Those running the school I went to and who told us "give a dollar and buy your way into heaven" must have missed that.
Ahh....another unprovable anecdote. I'd begun to think those were gone with Fr. Ambrose. Apparently not.

BTW...an Eastern Orthodox priest killed my uncle. Just sayin'.
Was your uncle trying to sell him an indulgence?

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/tribunals/apost_penit/documents/rc_trib_appen_pro_20000129_indulgence_en.html
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: J Michael on May 18, 2012, 03:14:01 PM
Are you sure about that? I could have sworn I read that the selling of indulgences was condemned at the Council of Trent.

You did.
Those running the school I went to and who told us "give a dollar and buy your way into heaven" must have missed that.

Guess so.  It happens.  :(
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: Volnutt on January 17, 2016, 07:48:17 PM
I guess this thread isn't too old to be dug up. It was either this or begin one from scratch.

So, assuming the article in the OP is accurate, what sort of theology could possibly underscore an idea of "Orthodox indulgences?"

From the Vatican's online catechism (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P4G.HTM) (emphasis mine):

Quote
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.83

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the "old man" and to put on the "new man."84

Does Orthodoxy draw these kinds of distinctions? I know St. Nicodemus the Hagiorite kind of does, but in the text I've seen he makes little in the way of elaboration. The text that is quoted in the article speaks only of "forgiveness of sins," not of remitting temporal punishment after eternal punishment has already been forgiven.

Outside of this kind of finely parsed context, the idea of indulgences doesn't seem coherent.
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: Svartzorn on January 17, 2016, 08:04:49 PM
In the line of what Vollnutt has posted and quoting from the vatican link posted above:

Quote
"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints".

Sooo... what exactly does that mean? If a sin has already been forgiven, why are indulgences necessary?
If you go to Confession and take the Eucharist with integrity and that avoids eternal punishment, how can some "temporal punishment" remain? How is it possible that our repentance spares us from a bigger condemnation (eternal punishment) but not a smaller one (temporal punishment)?
Doesn't the blood of our Lord clean us from all sin? (1st John 1:7)?
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: Svartzorn on January 17, 2016, 08:06:13 PM
i would search the forum for absolution certificates. we have had several threads on these.

Wait... they give certificates? Like in college?
I thought we were becoming sons of God, not his graduates. Not his business pals.
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: Volnutt on January 17, 2016, 11:37:49 PM
In the line of what Vollnutt has posted and quoting from the vatican link posted above:

Quote
"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints".

Sooo... what exactly does that mean? If a sin has already been forgiven, why are indulgences necessary?
If you go to Confession and take the Eucharist with integrity and that avoids eternal punishment, how can some "temporal punishment" remain? How is it possible that our repentance spares us from a bigger condemnation (eternal punishment) but not a smaller one (temporal punishment)?
Doesn't the blood of our Lord clean us from all sin? (1st John 1:7)?

In the link it's defined as the "unhealthy attachment to creatures" that's left over from the very nature of sin. I suppose it's the logical side effect from saying that one does not have to be perfect in order to be saved by God. So, I can see how one would want to conclude that this purification process continues into the next life, even if I'm not sure that it necessarily follows logically.

But why should this purifying process be something that can be alleviated by indulgences? I didn't know the grace of God could be fast tracked. Or if it is considered a gift of God as per the link, why would a faithful Christian want to alleviate/fast track it?
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: Cavaradossi on January 18, 2016, 10:24:26 AM
I guess this thread isn't too old to be dug up. It was either this or begin one from scratch.

So, assuming the article in the OP is accurate, what sort of theology could possibly underscore an idea of "Orthodox indulgences?"

From the Vatican's online catechism (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P4G.HTM) (emphasis mine):

Quote
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.83

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the "old man" and to put on the "new man."84

Does Orthodoxy draw these kinds of distinctions? I know St. Nicodemus the Hagiorite kind of does, but in the text I've seen he makes little in the way of elaboration. The text that is quoted in the article speaks only of "forgiveness of sins," not of remitting temporal punishment after eternal punishment has already been forgiven.

Outside of this kind of finely parsed context, the idea of indulgences doesn't seem coherent.

That's the problem with trying to equate certificates of absolution with indulgences. Indulgences clearly do not involve the absolution of sins, so despite the fact that those selling the certificates (wrongly) justified the practice by pointing to the indulgences of the Latins, it's not entirely clear that they understood the framework behind indulgences.
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: Volnutt on January 18, 2016, 12:27:24 PM
I guess this thread isn't too old to be dug up. It was either this or begin one from scratch.

So, assuming the article in the OP is accurate, what sort of theology could possibly underscore an idea of "Orthodox indulgences?"

From the Vatican's online catechism (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P4G.HTM) (emphasis mine):

Quote
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.83

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the "old man" and to put on the "new man."84

Does Orthodoxy draw these kinds of distinctions? I know St. Nicodemus the Hagiorite kind of does, but in the text I've seen he makes little in the way of elaboration. The text that is quoted in the article speaks only of "forgiveness of sins," not of remitting temporal punishment after eternal punishment has already been forgiven.

Outside of this kind of finely parsed context, the idea of indulgences doesn't seem coherent.

That's the problem with trying to equate certificates of absolution with indulgences. Indulgences clearly do not involve the absolution of sins, so despite the fact that those selling the certificates (wrongly) justified the practice by pointing to the indulgences of the Latins, it's not entirely clear that they understood the framework behind indulgences.

Yeah, that's the sense I'm getting. I don't see anything in Orthodox theology that really looks like that framework.
Title: Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
Post by: JoeS2 on January 21, 2016, 11:24:28 PM
How did they get the funds to build St. Peter's basilica?