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General Forums => Christian News => Topic started by: 88Devin12 on March 26, 2012, 02:43:38 PM

Title: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: 88Devin12 on March 26, 2012, 02:43:38 PM
"http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2012/03/turkey-to-reopen-halki-seminary-obama.html

March 26, 2012
Ekathimerini

Turkey has decided to reopen a former Greek Orthodox seminary on an island off the Istanbul coast, according to a statement made by US President Barack Obama."

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_26/03/2012_434657
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: 88Devin12 on March 26, 2012, 02:55:20 PM
Its also on the front page of Romfea.gr:
http://www.romfea.gr/
(website is in Greek)

http://www.romfea.gr/epikairotita/12030-erntogan-obama-epanaleitourgia-xalkis

Original:
"Ο πρόεδρος των Ηνωμένων Πολιτειών, Μπαράκ Ομπάμα, δήλωσε ότι ο πρωθυπουργός της Τουρκίας του ανακοίνωσε ότι θα επαναλειτουργήσει η Θεολογική Σχολή της Χάλκης, μετά τη συνάντησή του με τον Ταγίπ Ερντογάν, στη Σεούλ, όπου βρίσκονται για τη σύνοδο με θέμα την πυρηνική ασφάλεια."

Translation:
"The U.S. president, Barack Obama, said the prime minister of Turkey said it would reopen the Theological School of Halki, after meeting with Recep Tayyip Erdogan, in Seoul, where they are located on the summit on nuclear security."
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: biro on March 26, 2012, 02:58:07 PM
I hope this is true.

Thanks be to God!  :angel:
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Schultz on March 26, 2012, 03:01:14 PM
Obviously we must give credit where it is due: Ronald Reagan.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: podkarpatska on March 26, 2012, 03:06:10 PM
I also came across this on a Greek site, so I was - well, to be honest -  suspicious of the source.

Accordingly, I went to the official White House website and pulled down the President's remarks. http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2012/03/25/remarks-president-obama-and-prime-minister-erdogan-turkey-after-bilatera

He in fact did say this during a joint appearance yesterday in Seoul Korea following a Bilateral Meeting with Turkish Prime Mininster Erdogan.  Obama's meeting with Erdogan and the joint remarks came ahead of the international nuclear security summit in the South Korean capital.

President Obama:.... "Beyond those two specific issues, we had a wide-ranging conversation about our continued support of counterterrorism efforts, including the efforts that are taking place in Turkey with respect to the PKK.  We are very supportive of making sure that the kinds of terrorist attacks that we've seen in the past are not occurring.  I congratulated the Prime Minister on the efforts that he's made within Turkey to protect religious minorities.  I am pleased to hear of his decision to reopen the Halki Seminary. "

While Erdogan did not address this comment in his remarks, it is significant to note because yesterday was the  Feast of the Annunciation - the Greek National Holiday of independence from the Ottoman Turks. The timing of the remark and its inclusion by the President during the Nuclear Meetings in Seoul can not have been a coincidence as the significance of the date was surely known to both our State Department as well as the Turks.

Let us pray that this time, the Turks follow through.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: mike on March 26, 2012, 03:17:47 PM
I am waiting for at least something at goarch.org.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: JamesRottnek on March 26, 2012, 03:20:13 PM
Glory to God!
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: 88Devin12 on March 26, 2012, 03:20:39 PM
I also came across this on a Greek site, so I was - well, to be honest -  suspicious of the source.

Accordingly, I went to the official White House website and pulled down the President's remarks. http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2012/03/25/remarks-president-obama-and-prime-minister-erdogan-turkey-after-bilatera

He in fact did say this during a joint appearance yesterday in Seoul Korea following a Bilateral Meeting with Turkish Prime Mininster Erdogan.  Obama's meeting with Erdogan and the joint remarks came ahead of the international nuclear security summit in the South Korean capital.

President Obama:.... "Beyond those two specific issues, we had a wide-ranging conversation about our continued support of counterterrorism efforts, including the efforts that are taking place in Turkey with respect to the PKK.  We are very supportive of making sure that the kinds of terrorist attacks that we've seen in the past are not occurring.  I congratulated the Prime Minister on the efforts that he's made within Turkey to protect religious minorities.  I am pleased to hear of his decision to reopen the Halki Seminary. "

While Erdogan did not address this comment in his remarks, it is significant to note because yesterday was the  Feast of the Annunciation - the Greek National Holiday of independence from the Ottoman Turks. The timing of the remark and its inclusion by the President during the Nuclear Meetings in Seoul can not have been a coincidence as the significance of the date was surely known to both our State Department as well as the Turks.

Let us pray that this time, the Turks follow through.

Apparently the President and Vice President met in a Press Conference with Archbishop Demetrios yesterday to celebrate Greek Independence. So I doubt this is coincidence.
http://www.goarch.org/news/greekindependence2012in-washington-en
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: podkarpatska on March 26, 2012, 03:25:21 PM
I also came across this on a Greek site, so I was - well, to be honest -  suspicious of the source.

Accordingly, I went to the official White House website and pulled down the President's remarks. http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2012/03/25/remarks-president-obama-and-prime-minister-erdogan-turkey-after-bilatera

He in fact did say this during a joint appearance yesterday in Seoul Korea following a Bilateral Meeting with Turkish Prime Mininster Erdogan.  Obama's meeting with Erdogan and the joint remarks came ahead of the international nuclear security summit in the South Korean capital.

President Obama:.... "Beyond those two specific issues, we had a wide-ranging conversation about our continued support of counterterrorism efforts, including the efforts that are taking place in Turkey with respect to the PKK.  We are very supportive of making sure that the kinds of terrorist attacks that we've seen in the past are not occurring.  I congratulated the Prime Minister on the efforts that he's made within Turkey to protect religious minorities.  I am pleased to hear of his decision to reopen the Halki Seminary. "

While Erdogan did not address this comment in his remarks, it is significant to note because yesterday was the  Feast of the Annunciation - the Greek National Holiday of independence from the Ottoman Turks. The timing of the remark and its inclusion by the President during the Nuclear Meetings in Seoul can not have been a coincidence as the significance of the date was surely known to both our State Department as well as the Turks.

Let us pray that this time, the Turks follow through.

Apparently the President and Vice President met in a Press Conference with Archbishop Demetrios yesterday to celebrate Greek Independence. So I doubt this is coincidence.
http://www.goarch.org/news/greekindependence2012in-washington-en

Correction: While Presidents are indeed powerful men, they still can't be in two places at once! The presser was on Thursday, the 22nd, before the President left for Korea!  :)
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: 88Devin12 on March 26, 2012, 03:27:02 PM
I also came across this on a Greek site, so I was - well, to be honest -  suspicious of the source.

Accordingly, I went to the official White House website and pulled down the President's remarks. http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2012/03/25/remarks-president-obama-and-prime-minister-erdogan-turkey-after-bilatera

He in fact did say this during a joint appearance yesterday in Seoul Korea following a Bilateral Meeting with Turkish Prime Mininster Erdogan.  Obama's meeting with Erdogan and the joint remarks came ahead of the international nuclear security summit in the South Korean capital.

President Obama:.... "Beyond those two specific issues, we had a wide-ranging conversation about our continued support of counterterrorism efforts, including the efforts that are taking place in Turkey with respect to the PKK.  We are very supportive of making sure that the kinds of terrorist attacks that we've seen in the past are not occurring.  I congratulated the Prime Minister on the efforts that he's made within Turkey to protect religious minorities.  I am pleased to hear of his decision to reopen the Halki Seminary. "

While Erdogan did not address this comment in his remarks, it is significant to note because yesterday was the  Feast of the Annunciation - the Greek National Holiday of independence from the Ottoman Turks. The timing of the remark and its inclusion by the President during the Nuclear Meetings in Seoul can not have been a coincidence as the significance of the date was surely known to both our State Department as well as the Turks.

Let us pray that this time, the Turks follow through.

Apparently the President and Vice President met in a Press Conference with Archbishop Demetrios yesterday to celebrate Greek Independence. So I doubt this is coincidence.
http://www.goarch.org/news/greekindependence2012in-washington-en

Correction: While Presidents are indeed powerful men, they still can't be in two places at once! The presser was on Thursday, the 22nd, before the President left for Korea!  :)

LOL true, I assumed it was yesterday and that he left for Korea between last night and today... Sorry, i didn't read enough...
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Ortho_cat on March 26, 2012, 03:32:25 PM
Glory to Jesus Christ!
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on March 26, 2012, 03:39:35 PM
I remain skeptical--not of what President Obama said but of the follow through by Turkey.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: podkarpatska on March 26, 2012, 03:43:07 PM
I remain skeptical--not of what President Obama said but of the follow through by Turkey.

As President Reagan would have said, Trust,but verify!
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Ortho_cat on March 26, 2012, 03:44:16 PM
I remain skeptical--not of what President Obama said but of the follow through by Turkey.

good point...
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: GiC on March 26, 2012, 03:55:49 PM
I am waiting for at least something at goarch.org.

I think the patriarch is to smart to even allow this issue to be publicly discussed before it actually happens. If he starts portraying this as a diplomatic victory the Turks will shut it down before it even opens its doors again.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Ortho_cat on March 26, 2012, 04:02:53 PM
I am waiting for at least something at goarch.org.

I think the patriarch is to smart to even allow this issue to be publicly discussed before it actually happens. If he starts portraying this as a diplomatic victory the Turks will shut it down before it even opens its doors again.

another good point
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Αριστοκλής on March 26, 2012, 06:52:46 PM
I remain skeptical--not of what President Obama said but of the follow through by Turkey.

My hangup is but a small one...When?
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Jason.Wike on March 26, 2012, 08:00:21 PM
It might happen but there's probably going to be some unacceptable restrictions placed on it.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: primuspilus on March 27, 2012, 11:28:23 AM
Ill believe it when I see it.

PP
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: IreneOlinyk on March 27, 2012, 11:51:59 AM
I don't see any mention from offical Turkish government sources that a promise was made to open up the seminary.  Isn't it all just wishful thinking?
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Ortho_cat on March 27, 2012, 02:50:13 PM
I don't see any mention from offical Turkish government sources that a promise was made to open up the seminary.  Isn't it all just wishful thinking?

could be. time will tell...
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: akimori makoto on March 27, 2012, 11:19:44 PM
Ill believe it when I see it.

PP

Ditto.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: podkarpatska on March 27, 2012, 11:23:52 PM
I don't see any mention from offical Turkish government sources that a promise was made to open up the seminary.  Isn't it all just wishful thinking?

If the statement came from a Greek source or organizations like the Archons for example it might be wishful thinking. It is difficult for me to accept that any US President would make such a statement on the day which he made it (March 25th) unless the US had received assurances from the Turkish government that it was so. But I agree that I will believe it when it happens as talk is cheap.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: mike on March 28, 2012, 09:34:45 AM
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-275582-reopening-of-greek-orthodox-seminary-back-on-agenda.html

Comments from Patriarch Bartholomew and Turkish authorities.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Basil 320 on March 28, 2012, 10:22:13 AM
I wonder if the the Patriarchate has been raising the money needed to open the School, and how much they need to raise? 

Will a prospective seminarian need an undergraduate degree as a prerequisite to enroll?
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: podkarpatska on March 28, 2012, 10:39:37 AM
I wonder if the the Patriarchate has been raising the money needed to open the School, and how much they need to raise?  

Will a prospective seminarian need an undergraduate degree as a prerequisite to enroll?

I am certain that the Archons of St. Andrew have substantial funds available for this purpose and will be able to muster large amounts of additional cash in short order. They have a lot of influential folks in that group and ones with green back dollars!

Of course the Turks are quite capable of playing games. I wouldn't be surprised if theological schools were only open to Turkish citizens! The EU would have an issue there, but that could delay things for another decade or two.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: ialmisry on March 28, 2012, 10:46:35 AM
I wonder if the the Patriarchate has been raising the money needed to open the School, and how much they need to raise?  

Will a prospective seminarian need an undergraduate degree as a prerequisite to enroll?

I am certain that the Archons of St. Andrew have substantial funds available for this purpose and will be able to muster large amounts of additional cash in short order. They have a lot of influential folks in that group and ones with green back dollars!

Of course the Turks are quite capable of playing games. I wouldn't be surprised if theological schools were only open to Turkish citizens! The EU would have an issue there, but that could delay things for another decade or two.
Possible.  If I were the EP I'd match them (and he has shown himself pretty shrewd in taking on the Turkish government) and fill the school with students if I had to raid every Greek retirement home in the Turkish Republic to do so.  And of course, sue in the meantime.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: ialmisry on March 28, 2012, 10:49:11 AM
Ill believe it when I see it.

PP

Ditto.
Obama says a lot of things. [removed for possible misconstruing as political]
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on March 28, 2012, 10:51:39 AM
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-275582-reopening-of-greek-orthodox-seminary-back-on-agenda.html

Comments from Patriarch Bartholomew and Turkish authorities.


The following comment is quite interesting. Seems like the start of haggling and not the end.

On Monday, Minister for EU Affairs Egemen Bağış also claimed that opening the seminary is an important issue in terms of minority rights in Turkey. Bağış also criticized Greece for not taking similar steps to protect the rights of its Turkish Muslim population.

“The opening of the seminary is not a threat for Turkey. It would, on the contrary, be an asset … While taking these steps, Turkey stressed the importance of concurrent initiatives by Greek authorities in terms extending religious rights of the Muslim population in Greece. Greece should be aware of its democratic responsibilities as an EU member country,” Bağış stated.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Ortho_cat on March 28, 2012, 03:40:09 PM
Someone wake me up when the headlines read:

"Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Turkey says"
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: primuspilus on March 28, 2012, 03:40:54 PM
Someone wake me up when the headlines read:

"Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Turkey says"
Meh, Ill be happy when Halki starts accepting applications for students.....

PP
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Ortho_cat on March 28, 2012, 06:31:11 PM
Someone wake me up when the headlines read:

"Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Turkey says"
Meh, Ill be happy when Halki starts accepting applications for students.....

PP

I'll be happy when the first graduate comes through with his life (and diploma)!
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Cognomen on March 28, 2012, 08:10:06 PM
This isn't Quetta we're talking about; it's modern Turkey.  

The AKP has been considerably less hostile than the Kemalists were.  I think it will open.  Erdogan & Co. are largely pragmatic and committed to growing Turkey's economy and diplomatic influence.  This is an unneeded thorn in its side, and one that carries little meaning other than symbolic.  Why not reopen a seminary on an island? It's not as if some sizeable Christian minority in Turkey will be energized by this.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Basil 320 on March 28, 2012, 10:28:49 PM
If Erdogan is so "pragmatic," why has it taken his administration over a decade to act on the Patriarchate's request to reopen Halki?  I recall that when he first ran for president and lost, his party was an Ismalist Party, which changed its name to be legally palatable in allegedly secular Turkey.  His wife wears a head covering in public in violation of Turkish law.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Cognomen on March 29, 2012, 02:08:38 AM
Because few cared about the issue.  Acting on the request of the Patriarchate is one thing; acting on the request of the President of the United States (or State Department, EU reps, etc.) is quite another. 

It was this same secular law/government--the one AKP has been critical of--that closed Halki in the first place.

Yes, and minor brushes with secular Turkish law, as the one you described, have endeared the man and his wife to millions of Turks. Pragmatic doesn't mean doing what you think he should do.

Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: podkarpatska on March 29, 2012, 08:47:03 AM
Because few cared about the issue.  Acting on the request of the Patriarchate is one thing; acting on the request of the President of the United States (or State Department, EU reps, etc.) is quite another. 

It was this same secular law/government--the one AKP has been critical of--that closed Halki in the first place.

Yes, and minor brushes with secular Turkish law, as the one you described, have endeared the man and his wife to millions of Turks. Pragmatic doesn't mean doing what you think he should do.



I am not claiming equivalence here as that would be absurd, but the comment about his wife's head covering is sort of odd sounding in an Orthodox forum. Many Orthodox women, particularly the more traditional ones and many young converts (and their little daughters) wear a shawl as a head covering. Should outsiders judge them by this?
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Zenovia on March 30, 2012, 03:11:22 PM
I remain skeptical--not of what President Obama said but of the follow through by Turkey.

My hangup is but a small one...When?

Now that gave me a good laugh.   :D   Didn't Turkey say the same thing years ago?    
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: primuspilus on March 30, 2012, 03:13:48 PM
I remain skeptical--not of what President Obama said but of the follow through by Turkey.

My hangup is but a small one...When?

Now that gave me a good laugh.   :D   Didn't Turkey say the same thing years ago?    
I can imagine some Turk say, "When pigs fly....that's when"

PP
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Zenovia on March 30, 2012, 03:27:01 PM
This isn't Quetta we're talking about; it's modern Turkey.  

The AKP has been considerably less hostile than the Kemalists were.  I think it will open.  Erdogan & Co. are largely pragmatic and committed to growing Turkey's economy and diplomatic influence.  This is an unneeded thorn in its side, and one that carries little meaning other than symbolic.  Why not reopen a seminary on an island? It's not as if some sizeable Christian minority in Turkey will be energized by this.

If Erdogan goes against the previous Turkish attitudes and actually opens Halki, it will surprise me and many others as well.   But then again one never knows what the two New Ottomans Erdogan and Devotoglu will do in order to placate Obama for their own  territorial ambitions concerning Iraq and Syria.   ::)
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Nikolaostheservant on March 30, 2012, 04:00:49 PM
Devils advocate here;

Remember not to long ago Muslims wanted to open a mosq in Athens Greece??? And Greece blocked them.
remember Greeks hate Muslims in there country and the Muslims are treated very badly up to the point of beatings in public.
SO....i thnk Turkey will say ok we will open halki but you need to let their be a mosq or a few in Athens/Greece, or something to that nature.

I would love to see the seminary open, i would love to be one of the first to attend and graduate their, if able.
BUT, i really don't see the Greeks allowing a mosk in athens---so i don't see the seminary opening any time soon.


I do have a solution though,..........ready?

what if Turkey gets the hell out and returns Constantinople to the Greeks and while we are on the subject why don't they get the hell out of Cyprus and return it to the Cypriots!

Just sayn whats right.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: arimethea on March 30, 2012, 04:17:03 PM
I wonder if the the Patriarchate has been raising the money needed to open the School, and how much they need to raise? 

Will a prospective seminarian need an undergraduate degree as a prerequisite to enroll?

There was a rumor several years ago, when it first started looking like Halki could re-open, that all of the Greek Archdiocese students at Holy Cross would be transferred to Halki when it reopened. Part of this rumor even suggested that Holy Cross would cease to exist and the entire campus would just be left with Hellenic College.

If you look up pictures of Halki you will see that it is ready to open the doors tomorrow. The class rooms are clean and set up with books sitting on the desk. There is a group of monks who live and take care of the facilities there. All they need is the faculty and students.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: alice on March 30, 2012, 04:21:53 PM
Dear Nikolaos,

Christ is among us!

Hehehe...first of all Turkey keeps on making promises, and that is their MO: promises, but no action, so unfortunately, I would not hold my breath for the opening of Halki Seminary any time soon. They have promised this before....Hopefully I am wrong.

Secondly, I lived in Greece for a while and I do not think that Greeks treat Muslims badly and beat them up! Infact, Greeks treat Muslims pretty well considering... Ofcourse, we need to remember that Greece suffered 400 years under the Ottoman Muslim overlord. The wounds of bishops being publically skewered and burned like animals, and such acts are still not completely healed. We need to remember that Islam does nothing to accomodate Christians. Ask any Middle Eastern Christian living there today. The philosophy of Islam is to bring all 'infidels' under their control.

As far as Constantinople/Istanbul, do not worry, the prophecies of holy monastics tell us that it will once again be Orthodox. Infact, according to the holy Elder Paissios (+1996) you will probably be alive to see a great war in that part of the world. Russia will bring Orthodoxy back to the Mother City, and because of the great war, Turkey will need to remove its soldiers and tanks from Cyprus to fight on the mainland...therefore, Cyprus will see the Turks finally leave!

In Christ,
Alice

Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Nikolaostheservant on March 30, 2012, 07:36:51 PM
Dear Nikolaos,

Christ is among us!

Hehehe...first of all Turkey keeps on making promises, and that is their MO: promises, but no action, so unfortunately, I would not hold my breath for the opening of Halki Seminary any time soon. They have promised this before....Hopefully I am wrong.

Secondly, I lived in Greece for a while and I do not think that Greeks treat Muslims badly and beat them up! Infact, Greeks treat Muslims pretty well considering... Ofcourse, we need to remember that Greece suffered 400 years under the Ottoman Muslim overlord. The wounds of bishops being publically skewered and burned like animals, and such acts are still not completely healed. We need to remember that Islam does nothing to accomodate Christians. Ask any Middle Eastern Christian living there today. The philosophy of Islam is to bring all 'infidels' under their control.

As far as Constantinople/Istanbul, do not worry, the prophecies of holy monastics tell us that it will once again be Orthodox. Infact, according to the holy Elder Paissios (+1996) you will probably be alive to see a great war in that part of the world. Russia will bring Orthodoxy back to the Mother City, and because of the great war, Turkey will need to remove its soldiers and tanks from Cyprus to fight on the mainland...therefore, Cyprus will see the Turks finally leave!

In Christ,
Alice



Alice, your post gave me goose bumps and and almost brought tears to my eyes!

Wouldn't that be a beautiful thing to see in our lifetime? God willing it will all come true!

As far as the treatment of the Muslims in Greece, I'm not as lucky as you to live in Greece, i was just parroting what i have been told (family in greece)but i have seen a few youtub clips showing this.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Alpo on March 30, 2012, 08:47:40 PM
I can imagine some Turk say, "When pigs fly....that's when"

But pigs DO fly already.  :police:

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_1DVjF5lJwp4/TRRXLiGALNI/AAAAAAAAAik/-5I0kjs2Klo/s1600/pink_floyd-animals-frontal.jpg)
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: vorgos on March 30, 2012, 09:28:49 PM
Turkish Minister: Greece Hinders Halki's Opening

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2012/03/turkish-minister-greece-hinders-halkis.html

So it's not likely to be any time soon I take it...
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Nikolaostheservant on March 30, 2012, 09:47:28 PM
Just as i thought.
 
Not worth it, we don't need to give them a foothold in the remainder of our land.

And what a gracious gesture on the turks part, hugh ::).

Its like i take over your house, kill your family, and then to show the world how nice i am, i will allow you live in the back yard dog house as long as you kiss my ass everyday at 6:00 p.m.!

Through this they make us look like the religous racists, which they are. someone unfamilliar with the history will think.....thouse greeks are so bad why dont they show the turks the same religous respect as they offer to them.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: vorgos on March 30, 2012, 10:26:09 PM
From

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Greece

Quote
The majority of the immigrant Muslim community resides in Athens. In recognition of their religious rights, the Greek government approved the building of a mosque in July 2006. In addition, the Greek Orthodox Church has donated 300,000 square feet (28,000 m2), worth an estimated $20 million, in west Athens for the purpose of a Muslim cemetery. However, both commitments continued to remain dead letters by 2010. Recently, a mosque on Crete was bombed, likely as a result of anti-Muslim bigotry, but no suspects have yet been identified.

Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: vorgos on March 30, 2012, 10:32:14 PM
And this....

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/2413/greece-mosque-athens

dated Sep 2011

Quote
The Greek Parliament has approved a controversial plan to build a taxpayer-funded mega-mosque in Athens.

The move comes amid thinly veiled threats of violence by thousands of Muslim residents of the city who have been pressuring the government to meet their demands for a mosque or face an uprising.

but this makes no sense....

Quote
In the run-up to the 2004 Athens Olympic Games, the late King Fahd of Saudi Arabia offered to finance a mega-mosque in Paiania, a suburb about 20 kilometers (12 miles) east of downtown Athens, near the international airport. But that plan was abandoned in the face of opposition from the Greek Orthodox Church.

So now the government is forced to find the money for one....!!

And finally

Quote
Muslims say the violence proves they need an official mosque. But recent polls show that more than half of Greeks are opposed to the mosque plan and say their government should not be financing religious institutions.

LOL
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Nikolaostheservant on March 30, 2012, 11:24:55 PM
Holy crap batman--i did not know of all these instances.

The only thing the greek goverment should finance for the muslums is a one way ticket back to where they came from.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: podkarpatska on March 30, 2012, 11:32:54 PM
Holy crap batman--i did not know of all these instances.

The only thing the greek goverment should finance for the muslums is a one way ticket back to where they came from.

And that would do just exactly what? Why would it work out any better than the forced resettlements following the first world war?
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Cognomen on March 31, 2012, 12:24:20 AM
Wouldn't that be a beautiful thing to see in our lifetime? God willing it will all come true!

A war that kills a bunch of people, causes a tremendous amount of pain and suffering, but regains some worldly territory?  Sounds beautifully Christian. The Kingdom of God is within you Turkey.

It's comments like this that contribute to the negative perceptions of Orthodox as hypocritical nationalist/ethnicity worshipers. 

Its like i take over your house, kill your family, and then to show the world how nice i am, i will allow you live in the back yard dog house as long as you kiss my ass everyday at 6:00 p.m.!

Flawless.  No hyperbole or detectable inaccuracies in your helpful analogy.  So we don't believe in inherited guilt for us? The Turks on the other hand.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of policies of the Turkish Republic, but this thread is going in a sad direction.  Additionally, the idea of blaming "foreigners" and "immigrants" for all of Greece's problems is ridiculous.  Almost as silly as claiming that Constantinople was a Christian paradise that God was apparently unable to protect.

Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Cognomen on March 31, 2012, 12:27:41 AM

Quote
In the run-up to the 2004 Athens Olympic Games, the late King Fahd of Saudi Arabia offered to finance a mega-mosque in Paiania, a suburb about 20 kilometers (12 miles) east of downtown Athens, near the international airport. But that plan was abandoned in the face of opposition from the Greek Orthodox Church.

So now the government is forced to find the money for one....!!

Forced by whom?
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Cavaradossi on March 31, 2012, 12:34:10 AM
Wouldn't that be a beautiful thing to see in our lifetime? God willing it will all come true!

A war that kills a bunch of people, causes a tremendous amount of pain and suffering, but regains some worldly territory?  Sounds beautifully Christian. The Kingdom of God is within you Turkey.

It's comments like this that contribute to the negative perceptions of Orthodox as hypocritical nationalist/ethnicity worshipers. 

Its like i take over your house, kill your family, and then to show the world how nice i am, i will allow you live in the back yard dog house as long as you kiss my ass everyday at 6:00 p.m.!

Flawless.  No hyperbole or detectable inaccuracies in your helpful analogy.  So we don't believe in inherited guilt for us? The Turks on the other hand.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of policies of the Turkish Republic, but this thread is going in a sad direction.  Additionally, the idea of blaming "foreigners" and "immigrants" for all of Greece's problems is ridiculous.  Almost as silly as claiming that Constantinople was a Christian paradise that God was apparently unable to protect.



What? Nonsense! We all know that heaven will simply be like Constantinople and will be ruled by Justinian (pre-plague), the true vicar of Christ, for all eternity.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Cognomen on March 31, 2012, 12:46:08 AM
Flawless.  No hyperbole or detectable inaccuracies in your helpful analogy.  So we don't believe in inherited guilt for us? The Turks on the other hand.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of policies of the Turkish Republic, but this thread is going in a sad direction.  Additionally, the idea of blaming "foreigners" and "immigrants" for all of Greece's problems is ridiculous.  Almost as silly as claiming that Constantinople was a Christian paradise that God was apparently unable to protect.



What? Nonsense! We all know that heaven will simply be like Constantinople and will be ruled by Justinian (pre-plague), the true vicar of Christ, for all eternity.

I build what I think to be a pretty substantial argument, and then it collapses like a house of evil Turkish cards under the weight of your rebuttal.  Well played, wise sir.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: vorgos on March 31, 2012, 01:14:41 AM

Quote
In the run-up to the 2004 Athens Olympic Games, the late King Fahd of Saudi Arabia offered to finance a mega-mosque in Paiania, a suburb about 20 kilometers (12 miles) east of downtown Athens, near the international airport. But that plan was abandoned in the face of opposition from the Greek Orthodox Church.

So now the government is forced to find the money for one....!!

Forced by whom?

It is all there. Reread my post, the first quote.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Cognomen on March 31, 2012, 01:27:30 AM

Quote
In the run-up to the 2004 Athens Olympic Games, the late King Fahd of Saudi Arabia offered to finance a mega-mosque in Paiania, a suburb about 20 kilometers (12 miles) east of downtown Athens, near the international airport. But that plan was abandoned in the face of opposition from the Greek Orthodox Church.

So now the government is forced to find the money for one....!!

Forced by whom?

It is all there. Reread my post, the first quote.

I read it, but my somewhat rhetorical question was not identified as such. My apologies.

Forced by a minority of trouble making non-citizens?  Looks to me as if Greece is almost entirely incapable of governing anything.  How was this situation allowed to deteriorate?  Lots of people to blame (not just Muslims) but many Greeks don't want to share in this.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: vorgos on March 31, 2012, 01:46:39 AM

Quote
In the run-up to the 2004 Athens Olympic Games, the late King Fahd of Saudi Arabia offered to finance a mega-mosque in Paiania, a suburb about 20 kilometers (12 miles) east of downtown Athens, near the international airport. But that plan was abandoned in the face of opposition from the Greek Orthodox Church.

So now the government is forced to find the money for one....!!

Forced by whom?

It is all there. Reread my post, the first quote.

I read it, but my somewhat rhetorical question was not identified as such. My apologies.

Forced by a minority of trouble making non-citizens?  Looks to me as if Greece is almost entirely incapable of governing anything.  How was this situation allowed to deteriorate?  Lots of people to blame (not just Muslims) but many Greeks don't want to share in this.

I don't know my friend. I just read those articles myself and I am scratching my head too trying to make sense of it all.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Cognomen on March 31, 2012, 02:00:59 AM
I don't know my friend. I just read those articles myself and I am scratching my head too trying to make sense of it all.

Indeed.  It's when people claim to have already made sense of it all that a flag is raised.

Prayers that God's will be done.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Basil 320 on March 31, 2012, 03:14:49 AM
Re. Reply No. 40  arimethea,

I heard that rumor.  It was ascribed to former Archbishop Spyridon, supposedly when he was dealing with the scandal at Holy Cross that occurred during his administration of the Church in America.  I do not believe that could ever happen, the clergy and the faithful of the Holy Archdiocese will not stand for closure of Holy Cross; too many have supported it, too many would honor the works of Archbishop Athenagoras, Bishop Athenagoras of Boston, Archbishop Iakovos, and many. many others, bishops, priests, and laity, too numerous to note.  This doesn't mean that many of the American faithful will not support Halki too.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Nikolaostheservant on March 31, 2012, 06:23:56 AM
Holy crap batman--i did not know of all these instances.

The only thing the greek goverment should finance for the muslums is a one way ticket back to where they came from.

And that would do just exactly what? Why would it work out any better than the forced resettlements following the first world war?


What do you mean "And that would do just exactly what"?  ---------      It would get rid of them. No mosk for them in greece!
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Nikolaostheservant on March 31, 2012, 06:40:47 AM
Wouldn't that be a beautiful thing to see in our lifetime? God willing it will all come true!

A war that kills a bunch of people, causes a tremendous amount of pain and suffering, but regains some worldly territory?  Sounds beautifully Christian. The Kingdom of God is within you Turkey.

Ok dud....i did not think of all details, jezz! what a party pooper you are  >:(
But if i had my choice a rain of fire from the heavans would suffice, this way only they get burned not inocent greeks.

It's comments like this that contribute to the negative perceptions of Orthodox as hypocritical nationalist/ethnicity worshipers.

So what are you defending the turks and what they did to greece, are you realy doing that????????   

Its like i take over your house, kill your family, and then to show the world how nice i am, i will allow you live in the back yard dog house as long as you kiss my ass everyday at 6:00 p.m.!

Flawless.  No hyperbole or detectable inaccuracies in your helpful analogy.  So we don't believe in inherited guilt for us? The Turks on the other hand.

What are you saying? "hyperbole or detectable inaccuracies". Its a perfectly good analagy. you know......im starting to think you have some alterior motives here???  

Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of policies of the Turkish Republic, but this thread is going in a sad direction.you sure abt that?  Additionally, the idea of blaming "foreigners" and "immigrants" for all of Greece's problems is ridiculous.  Almost as silly as claiming that Constantinople was a Christian paradise that God was apparently unable to protect.

Who blamed "foreigners" and "immigrants"for all of Greece's problems?
well i guess we will never know if "Constantinople was a Christian paradise", will we?


Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Cognomen on March 31, 2012, 01:12:54 PM
Wouldn't that be a beautiful thing to see in our lifetime? God willing it will all come true!

A war that kills a bunch of people, causes a tremendous amount of pain and suffering, but regains some worldly territory?  Sounds beautifully Christian. The Kingdom of God is within you Turkey.

[#1]  Ok dud....i did not think of all details, jezz! what a party pooper you are  >:(
But if i had my choice a rain of fire from the heavans would suffice, this way only they get burned not inocent greeks.

It's comments like this that contribute to the negative perceptions of Orthodox as hypocritical nationalist/ethnicity worshipers.

[#2]  So what are you defending the turks and what they did to greece, are you realy doing that????????   

Its like i take over your house, kill your family, and then to show the world how nice i am, i will allow you live in the back yard dog house as long as you kiss my ass everyday at 6:00 p.m.!

Flawless.  No hyperbole or detectable inaccuracies in your helpful analogy.  So we don't believe in inherited guilt for us? The Turks on the other hand.

[#3]  What are you saying? "hyperbole or detectable inaccuracies". Its a perfectly good analagy. you know......im starting to think you have some alterior motives here???  

Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of policies of the Turkish Republic, but this thread is going in a sad direction.you sure abt that?  Additionally, the idea of blaming "foreigners" and "immigrants" for all of Greece's problems is ridiculous.  Almost as silly as claiming that Constantinople was a Christian paradise that God was apparently unable to protect.

[#4]  Who blamed "foreigners" and "immigrants"for all of Greece's problems?
well i guess we will never know if "Constantinople was a Christian paradise", will we?

#1
You've shown your colors.  Only the Greeks are innocent. The Turks all deserve to be burned.  Classy.  I stand by my position that your comments and attitude, at least on this issue, are an embarrassment to Orthodoxy.

#2
I am not defending what the Turks did to Greece.  I am distinguishing that literally tens of millions of Turks had nothing to do with any of the grievances and wrongs committed.  This should not turn into a history, International Relations debate.  You are ascribing guilt and damnation, in a fit of unbecoming rage and vengeance, that isn't worthy of being included as a Christian position.

#3
No, it's actually a laughably flawed analogy.  If you can't see that, then this dialogue is pretty worthless.  I trust that others see how silly it is as well.
Ulterior (I'm assuming that's what you meant) motives?  What do you have in mind?

#4
Wrong again (why stop now; you're on a roll!).  We know, from the writings of the Holy Fathers, from the 4th Century through the 21st that Constantinople was not an earthly paradise.  Have you ever read St. John Chrysostom?  Have you ever heard the story of the icon of the Theotokos ascending on the eve of the Ottoman invasion, thus indicating God's unwillingness to protect the city further?  St. Nikolai of Ohrid, among others, attributes the wickedness and straying of those in Constantinople as the reason for it's fall.  God allowed Constantinople to fall.  Try to understand that.  Why? You'll have to ask Him.

All people are sinners.  Thus, all populated cities are sinful. We are incapable of creating a paradise on earth.  Take a look at "Orthodox lands" and tell me that they represent paradises.  That's part of the reason Christ died for us.  Your revisionist history on this, along with your fundamental misunderstanding of Constantinople within the context of Orthodoxy is disturbing, but not uncommon. 

Should we wish to see beautiful churches and monuments returned to Christians?  Certainly.  Should we wish to see Christianity thrive in places it once did? Absolutely. But we should be praying for a renewal of faith in Orthodox lands and a spread to these areas, not asking for a rain of fire to help sort these problems. 

Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: arimethea on March 31, 2012, 01:17:06 PM
Re. Reply No. 40  arimethea,

I heard that rumor.  It was ascribed to former Archbishop Spyridon, supposedly when he was dealing with the scandal at Holy Cross that occurred during his administration of the Church in America.  I do not believe that could ever happen, the clergy and the faithful of the Holy Archdiocese will not stand for closure of Holy Cross; too many have supported it, too many would honor the works of Archbishop Athenagoras, Bishop Athenagoras of Boston, Archbishop Iakovos, and many. many others, bishops, priests, and laity, too numerous to note.  This doesn't mean that many of the American faithful will not support Halki too.

This rumor is more recent then Archbishop Spyridon. It was in the context that the other seminaries in American could soon see an influx of married students from the Greek Archdiocese when Holy Cross is shut down.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Basil 320 on March 31, 2012, 04:49:57 PM
Ok, arimethia, I hadn't heard that one, I'll check it out tomorrow from a few sources I have, if I remember to ask.

But, my point is that I firmly believe an effort to shut down Holy Cross would set off a hurricane of opposition, such that we witnessed during the last two years of Archbishop Spyridon's tenure; there's way too much love for the School.  It is often referred to as "The Soul" of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America.  I do not think His Eminence the Archbishop, nor most, if not all of the members of the Eparchial Synod, would support a shut down of Holy Cross, and most of the clergy and lay leadership and many of the common faithful would strongly oppose closing Holy Cross.  If this is coming from The Phanar, I also have faith that Archbishop Demetrios knows when and how to draw the line with the Patriarchate.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Zenovia on March 31, 2012, 08:14:26 PM
I'd like to explain  the Greek animosity towards Turkey.  It stems from  fear and anger and has nothing to do with historical grievances but because of current realities, something that our press for political reasons doesn't want to emphasize.  For the past three plus decades, Turkey has been sending its jets over Greek territorial waters and islands, only to be chased away by Greek jets.  This 'comedy'   occurs in the spring,probably to keep  the tourists away from the Greek islands.  

It endangers in the meantime the foreign airlines flying over the Aegean, and they have complained but to no avail.  Recently, some Turkish officers were arrested by the present government and  accused in court of wanting to create an incident in which a Turkish fighter plane would be shot down in order to start a war with Greece before the Olympic games.  

Turkey has always refused to recognize Greece's legitimate rights in the Aegean as established by international law.  Because of this bullying by Turkey, Greece has not dared  develop its natural resources in the Aegean.    Greece has been willing to settle the dispute at the Hague but Turkey refuses unless the rights of  the Turkish minority in Thrace is considered as well.  This is a  Turkish farce because according to the Treaty of Lausanne twenty thousand Turks were given the right to remain in Thrace.  Today this population has grown to one hundred and fifty thousand, while the Greeks who were in the majority in Istanbul and who were guaranteed safety by Turkey, were forced to leave during the pogroms of the 1950's.

A few months ago a person arrested by the Turkish courts mentioned how the former Turkish political party paid him  to set fires on the Greeks islands about ten years ago.  I have never doubted that the more recent  fires  in the Peloponnese in which the smoke  reached Italy, was deliberately set.  There is no way in my mind that sixty fires could  start up on the one day the direction of the wind changed in August, and at a time when all the trees and shrubs were dry from the summer heat.  I'm sure Greece knows it and the EU as well, but won't say anything for political reasons.  Needless to say these fires have been very costly to the Greek economy.  Equally costly are the arms Greece is forced to buy because of Turkey's threats.  It is one of the largest buyer of arms in the world.  

Turkey has been sending tens of thousands of illegals onto the Greek islands for years and it was only stopped recently because the EU has been  patrolling the seas with its helicopters.   Since then these illegals have been coming in from the borders in Thrace, again in the thousands.  These are Afghans, Kurds, and Pakistanis, and they can be seen all over Athens.  The other European nations refuse to take them, and even though Turkey has made an agreement about eight years ago to take them back, it refuses to.  If Greece should send these illegals back by boat they'll be found floating in the sea.   Greece is now building a wall to keep them from coming in from Thrace, but it's expensive.

Add to this the Albanians that have been coming in for two decades now as well as those from Fyrom, which has turned  Athens  from the safest city in Europe into one in which every home and apartment window is locked tight with metal shutters.  

Now let's get on to Cyprus.  Turkey has thirty thousand troops sitting in the Northern section.  It has taken the Greek homes and given them to Turkish citizens from the mainland.   This Turkish occupied area is not recognized by any nation, and yet when Cyprus wanted to search for gas last year in its territorial waters with the American firm Noble and together with Israel, Turkey objected and made threats.  

The US, EU and Russia said that Cyprus had every right to search for gas within its own territorial waters.   Turkey though sent its warships and  stationed them in between the Israeli and Cypriot waters.  In order to watch over the volatile situation and secure the independence of Cyprus, Russia had it's aircraft carrier leave it's northern port and arrive in the Eastern Mediterranean at exactly the time the results of the gas find would come in.  This is the  real reason the Russian ships were near Syrian and it was with the blessing of the EU and US.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Nikolaostheservant on March 31, 2012, 08:19:46 PM
Wouldn't that be a beautiful thing to see in our lifetime? God willing it will all come true!

A war that kills a bunch of people, causes a tremendous amount of pain and suffering, but regains some worldly territory?  Sounds beautifully Christian. The Kingdom of God is within you Turkey.

[#1]  Ok dud....i did not think of all details, jezz! what a party pooper you are  >:(
But if i had my choice a rain of fire from the heavans would suffice, this way only they get burned not inocent greeks.

It's comments like this that contribute to the negative perceptions of Orthodox as hypocritical nationalist/ethnicity worshipers.

[#2]  So what are you defending the turks and what they did to greece, are you realy doing that????????   

Its like i take over your house, kill your family, and then to show the world how nice i am, i will allow you live in the back yard dog house as long as you kiss my ass everyday at 6:00 p.m.!

Flawless.  No hyperbole or detectable inaccuracies in your helpful analogy.  So we don't believe in inherited guilt for us? The Turks on the other hand.

[#3]  What are you saying? "hyperbole or detectable inaccuracies". Its a perfectly good analagy. you know......im starting to think you have some alterior motives here???  

Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of policies of the Turkish Republic, but this thread is going in a sad direction.you sure abt that?  Additionally, the idea of blaming "foreigners" and "immigrants" for all of Greece's problems is ridiculous.  Almost as silly as claiming that Constantinople was a Christian paradise that God was apparently unable to protect.

[#4]  Who blamed "foreigners" and "immigrants"for all of Greece's problems?
well i guess we will never know if "Constantinople was a Christian paradise", will we?

#1
You've shown your colors.  Only the Greeks are innocent. The Turks all deserve to be burned.  Classy.  I stand by my position that your comments and attitude, at least on this issue, are an embarrassment to Orthodoxy.

#2
I am not defending what the Turks did to Greece.  I am distinguishing that literally tens of millions of Turks had nothing to do with any of the grievances and wrongs committed.  This should not turn into a history, International Relations debate.  You are ascribing guilt and damnation, in a fit of unbecoming rage and vengeance, that isn't worthy of being included as a Christian position.

#3
No, it's actually a laughably flawed analogy.  If you can't see that, then this dialogue is pretty worthless.  I trust that others see how silly it is as well.
Ulterior (I'm assuming that's what you meant) motives?  What do you have in mind?

#4
Wrong again (why stop now; you're on a roll!).  We know, from the writings of the Holy Fathers, from the 4th Century through the 21st that Constantinople was not an earthly paradise.  Have you ever read St. John Chrysostom?  Have you ever heard the story of the icon of the Theotokos ascending on the eve of the Ottoman invasion, thus indicating God's unwillingness to protect the city further?  St. Nikolai of Ohrid, among others, attributes the wickedness and straying of those in Constantinople as the reason for it's fall.  God allowed Constantinople to fall.  Try to understand that.  Why? You'll have to ask Him.

All people are sinners.  Thus, all populated cities are sinful. We are incapable of creating a paradise on earth.  Take a look at "Orthodox lands" and tell me that they represent paradises.  That's part of the reason Christ died for us.  Your revisionist history on this, along with your fundamental misunderstanding of Constantinople within the context of Orthodoxy is disturbing, but not uncommon.  

Should we wish to see beautiful churches and monuments returned to Christians?  Certainly.  Should we wish to see Christianity thrive in places it once did? Absolutely. But we should be praying for a renewal of faith in Orthodox lands and a spread to these areas, not asking for a rain of fire to help sort these problems.  



I dont want to participate in one of those internet dialogs where we respond to each otheres statements by number.

I will just say---you have assumed (read into what i said) way too much.
 
My view is very simplistic in this, and you are going on and on abt the details, which i do not care much abt!

If someone comes up to your kid and starts stabing her repetedly, what are you going to do?? your going to defend your kid, no? your not going to stand there and disect at what angel the knife entered or was it a double edged blade or what make the knife is?
Oh maybe this is another one of my analogys that is too close to reality for you?

All i know is turks came in KILLED (torchured,raped....) and PILLAGED the area took it for thr own.
My own ancestors were killed in this.

and you said --- "only the greeks are inocent"???? are you on drugs? YES ONLY THE GREEKS ARE INOCENT IN THIS! repet that over and over while you pound you head against the wall, maybe it will sink in!
Cant belive yo actually said that (do you have turkish roots, are yo turkish?) what did the greeks do but live there life until they were attacked by the turks.
Maybe the cipriots were also asking for them to come and take over there land also.

comon man you gota be a turk
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Zenovia on April 01, 2012, 01:08:05 PM
Holy crap batman--i did not know of all these instances.

The only thing the greek goverment should finance for the muslums is a one way ticket back to where they came from.

And that would do just exactly what? Why would it work out any better than the forced resettlements following the first world war?

Even though the  illegals have been sent into Greece through Turkey, Turkey does not have to accept them back.  They must go back to their country of origin, and that's  difficult because they come in without any passports and papers.  Greece is now setting up camps for them in former army barracks while linguists determine exactly where they came from.  The EU provided a plane and three hundred were returned, but when one considers that there are probably hundreds of thousands in a nation of ten million, it's a long and costly process.

This influx of Muslims into Greece as well as other Mediterrenean nations is not accidental it is by design.  The intent is to make Europe  Islamic since Islam is a political as well as a religious entity.  Of course all this doesn't mean that Greece is not  to blame for its problems.  Any people that will allow foreign hooded criminals to infiltrate peaceful protests and smash property without being arrested should have their heads examined. ::)
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Zenovia on April 01, 2012, 02:39:29 PM
I don't see any mention from offical Turkish government sources that a promise was made to open up the seminary.  Isn't it all just wishful thinking?

I think the question here should have been:  What demands is Turkey going to make on Greece in order to open the Seminary?  Of course the blame is now being thrown on Greece.   Should we have expected differently? :'( 
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Nikolaostheservant on April 01, 2012, 04:10:43 PM
I'd like to explain  the Greek animosity towards Turkey.  It stems from  fear and anger and has nothing to do with historical grievances but because of current realities, something that our press for political reasons doesn't want to emphasize.  For the past three plus decades, Turkey has been sending its jets over Greek territorial waters and islands, only to be chased away by Greek jets.  This 'comedy'   occurs in the spring,probably to keep  the tourists away from the Greek islands.  

It endangers in the meantime the foreign airlines flying over the Aegean, and they have complained but to no avail.  Recently, some Turkish officers were arrested by the present government and  accused in court of wanting to create an incident in which a Turkish fighter plane would be shot down in order to start a war with Greece before the Olympic games.  

Turkey has always refused to recognize Greece's legitimate rights in the Aegean as established by international law.  Because of this bullying by Turkey, Greece has not dared  develop its natural resources in the Aegean.    Greece has been willing to settle the dispute at the Hague but Turkey refuses unless the rights of  the Turkish minority in Thrace is considered as well.  This is a  Turkish farce because according to the Treaty of Lausanne twenty thousand Turks were given the right to remain in Thrace.  Today this population has grown to one hundred and fifty thousand, while the Greeks who were in the majority in Istanbul and who were guaranteed safety by Turkey, were forced to leave during the pogroms of the 1950's.

A few months ago a person arrested by the Turkish courts mentioned how the former Turkish political party paid him  to set fires on the Greeks islands about ten years ago.  I have never doubted that the more recent  fires  in the Peloponnese in which the smoke  reached Italy, was deliberately set.  There is no way in my mind that sixty fires could  start up on the one day the direction of the wind changed in August, and at a time when all the trees and shrubs were dry from the summer heat.  I'm sure Greece knows it and the EU as well, but won't say anything for political reasons.  Needless to say these fires have been very costly to the Greek economy.  Equally costly are the arms Greece is forced to buy because of Turkey's threats.  It is one of the largest buyer of arms in the world.  

Turkey has been sending tens of thousands of illegals onto the Greek islands for years and it was only stopped recently because the EU has been  patrolling the seas with its helicopters.   Since then these illegals have been coming in from the borders in Thrace, again in the thousands.  These are Afghans, Kurds, and Pakistanis, and they can be seen all over Athens.  The other European nations refuse to take them, and even though Turkey has made an agreement about eight years ago to take them back, it refuses to.  If Greece should send these illegals back by boat they'll be found floating in the sea.   Greece is now building a wall to keep them from coming in from Thrace, but it's expensive.

Add to this the Albanians that have been coming in for two decades now as well as those from Fyrom, which has turned  Athens  from the safest city in Europe into one in which every home and apartment window is locked tight with metal shutters.  

Now let's get on to Cyprus.  Turkey has thirty thousand troops sitting in the Northern section.  It has taken the Greek homes and given them to Turkish citizens from the mainland.   This Turkish occupied area is not recognized by any nation, and yet when Cyprus wanted to search for gas last year in its territorial waters with the American firm Noble and together with Israel, Turkey objected and made threats.  

The US, EU and Russia said that Cyprus had every right to search for gas within its own territorial waters.   Turkey though sent its warships and  stationed them in between the Israeli and Cypriot waters.  In order to watch over the volatile situation and secure the independence of Cyprus, Russia had it's aircraft carrier leave it's northern port and arrive in the Eastern Mediterranean at exactly the time the results of the gas find would come in.  This is the  real reason the Russian ships were near Syrian and it was with the blessing of the EU and US.


WOW! Zenovia, you are way more informed on this than me. It obviously goes a whole lot deeper then i ever immagined. Tanks for enlightening us.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: akimori makoto on April 01, 2012, 06:16:24 PM
Wouldn't that be a beautiful thing to see in our lifetime? God willing it will all come true!

A war that kills a bunch of people, causes a tremendous amount of pain and suffering, but regains some worldly territory?  Sounds beautifully Christian. The Kingdom of God is within you Turkey.

It's comments like this that contribute to the negative perceptions of Orthodox as hypocritical nationalist/ethnicity worshipers. 

Its like i take over your house, kill your family, and then to show the world how nice i am, i will allow you live in the back yard dog house as long as you kiss my ass everyday at 6:00 p.m.!

Flawless.  No hyperbole or detectable inaccuracies in your helpful analogy.  So we don't believe in inherited guilt for us? The Turks on the other hand.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of policies of the Turkish Republic, but this thread is going in a sad direction.  Additionally, the idea of blaming "foreigners" and "immigrants" for all of Greece's problems is ridiculous.  Almost as silly as claiming that Constantinople was a Christian paradise that God was apparently unable to protect.



What? Nonsense! We all know that heaven will simply be like Constantinople and will be ruled by Justinian (pre-plague), the true vicar of Christ, for all eternity.

All hail His Imperial Majesty Justinian, King of the Hellenes and Emperor of the Romans !
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: akimori makoto on April 01, 2012, 06:17:39 PM
Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of policies of the Turkish Republic, but this thread is going in a sad direction.  Additionally, the idea of blaming "foreigners" and "immigrants" for all of Greece's problems is ridiculous.  Almost as silly as claiming that Constantinople was a Christian paradise that God was apparently unable to protect.

The cause of Greece's problems is that the Greeks have forgotten how to be Greeks (see my comments in that other thread on the same subject matter).
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Nikolaostheservant on April 01, 2012, 08:45:31 PM
Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of policies of the Turkish Republic, but this thread is going in a sad direction.  Additionally, the idea of blaming "foreigners" and "immigrants" for all of Greece's problems is ridiculous.  Almost as silly as claiming that Constantinople was a Christian paradise that God was apparently unable to protect.

The cause of Greece's problems is that the Greeks have forgotten how to be Greeks (see my comments in that other thread on the same subject matter).


Perfect!
Im going to print this out and hang it up! ;D

"The cause of Greece's problems is that the Greeks have forgotten how to be Greeks"

p.s. they r not authentic Greeks anymore and thats due to the turks.
ans i still say Dolmadakia and baklava are GREEK dishes not turkish ;)
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: arimethea on April 02, 2012, 08:48:53 AM
Quote
We are preparing to admit students from many nations,” Lambriniadis said. If the school reopens, it will also admit members of other minority communities in Turkey, according Lambriniadis. “The reopening of the seminary is more important for Turkey than it is for us. We have put up with [its being closed] for 41 years and can still go on. The state withheld from its citizens their right to education for forty years. If the seminary does not open, this will also reveal Turkey’s attitude regarding human rights,” Lambriniadis said.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/cleric-hopeful-over-reopening-of-istanbul-greek-seminary.aspx?pageID=238&nID=17405&NewsCatID=339
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: primuspilus on April 02, 2012, 11:10:47 AM
Quote
If the school reopens
this says it all

PP
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Zenovia on April 02, 2012, 11:40:22 AM
Re. Reply No. 40  arimethea,

I heard that rumor.  It was ascribed to former Archbishop Spyridon, supposedly when he was dealing with the scandal at Holy Cross that occurred during his administration of the Church in America.  I do not believe that could ever happen, the clergy and the faithful of the Holy Archdiocese will not stand for closure of Holy Cross; too many have supported it, too many would honor the works of Archbishop Athenagoras, Bishop Athenagoras of Boston, Archbishop Iakovos, and many. many others, bishops, priests, and laity, too numerous to note.  This doesn't mean that many of the American faithful will not support Halki too.

I personally would not believe anything ascribed to Archbishop Spyridon.  There was much politics at play, and much paranoia.  The devil was having his day and he suffered severely.   :-[
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Orest on April 02, 2012, 12:01:03 PM
[I personally would not believe anything ascribed to Archbishop Spyridon.  There was much politics at play, and much paranoia.  The devil was having his day and he suffered severely.   :-[

The people who realy suffered were the professors and students of Holy Cross Seminary.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Zenovia on April 02, 2012, 12:02:18 PM
Here's an  interesting tidbit about Constantinople.  This very devout woman told me that Sultan Mehmet II after having captured the city would see shadows of a hand with five fingers.  It was driving him crazy so one day he decided to  see a holy person and find out the meaning was.  The monk told not to worry and that it had nothing to do with him.  What it meant was that  had there been five truly good people in Constantinople the city would never have fallen.

The future saint Elder Paisios said the same thing about Cyprus.  He said no one was to blame for what happened but the Cypriots themselves. And let this all be a lesson to us all..... 

REPENT, REPENT, REPENT! :angel:
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Zenovia on April 02, 2012, 12:26:25 PM
[I personally would not believe anything ascribed to Archbishop Spyridon.  There was much politics at play, and much paranoia.  The devil was having his day and he suffered severely.   :-[

The people who realy suffered were the professors and students of Holy Cross Seminary.

I don't want to go into it, but the Seminary had severe problems before Arch. Spyridon came and  Archbishop Spyridon tried  to correct them. Anyway there were other forces at work...so let's leave it at that.

I will say one thing though, I've always assumed  Patriarch Bartholomew was a little paranoid, but now I'm having my doubts.  It might  have to do with the Turkish government and the pressure he's subjected to.   I'm  saying this because of Elder Ephraim.  There is no way the Greek government would have jailed him if the Patriarch objected.   It could be that the Elders close relationship with Putin had aroused the ire of  the 'New Ottomans' Erdogan and Devotoglu.

Anyway this is only my opinion.  It's  not based on hard facts so it should be taken as such.    ???
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Ortho_cat on April 02, 2012, 12:30:01 PM
Here's an  interesting tidbit about Constantinople.  This very devout woman told me that Sultan Mehmet II after having captured the city would see shadows of a hand with five fingers.  It was driving him crazy so one day he decided to  see a holy person and find out the meaning was.  The monk told not to worry and that it had nothing to do with him.  What it meant was that  had there been five truly good people in Constantinople the city would never have fallen.

The future saint Elder Paisios said the same thing about Cyprus.  He said no one was to blame for what happened but the Cypriots themselves. And let this all be a lesson to us all..... 

REPENT, REPENT, REPENT! :angel:

if there weren't 5 holy people there, what's the odds that we would be any different? :(
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: primuspilus on April 02, 2012, 12:42:33 PM
Here's an  interesting tidbit about Constantinople.  This very devout woman told me that Sultan Mehmet II after having captured the city would see shadows of a hand with five fingers.  It was driving him crazy so one day he decided to  see a holy person and find out the meaning was.  The monk told not to worry and that it had nothing to do with him.  What it meant was that  had there been five truly good people in Constantinople the city would never have fallen.

The future saint Elder Paisios said the same thing about Cyprus.  He said no one was to blame for what happened but the Cypriots themselves. And let this all be a lesson to us all..... 

REPENT, REPENT, REPENT! :angel:

if there weren't 5 holy people there, what's the odds that we would be any different? :(
The fall happened because it happened. If there were 5 holy people in the city (which there were more than that methinks), it still would have fallen.

PP
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: arimethea on April 02, 2012, 12:53:29 PM
Here's an  interesting tidbit about Constantinople.  This very devout woman told me that Sultan Mehmet II after having captured the city would see shadows of a hand with five fingers.  It was driving him crazy so one day he decided to  see a holy person and find out the meaning was.  The monk told not to worry and that it had nothing to do with him.  What it meant was that  had there been five truly good people in Constantinople the city would never have fallen.

The future saint Elder Paisios said the same thing about Cyprus.  He said no one was to blame for what happened but the Cypriots themselves. And let this all be a lesson to us all..... 

REPENT, REPENT, REPENT! :angel:

if there weren't 5 holy people there, what's the odds that we would be any different? :(
The fall happened because it happened. If there were 5 holy people in the city (which there were more than that methinks), it still would have fallen.

PP

You both do not get it. Read your scripture, God allowed Constantinople to fall because we fell from God.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: primuspilus on April 02, 2012, 01:00:36 PM
Here's an  interesting tidbit about Constantinople.  This very devout woman told me that Sultan Mehmet II after having captured the city would see shadows of a hand with five fingers.  It was driving him crazy so one day he decided to  see a holy person and find out the meaning was.  The monk told not to worry and that it had nothing to do with him.  What it meant was that  had there been five truly good people in Constantinople the city would never have fallen.

The future saint Elder Paisios said the same thing about Cyprus.  He said no one was to blame for what happened but the Cypriots themselves. And let this all be a lesson to us all.....  

REPENT, REPENT, REPENT! :angel:

if there weren't 5 holy people there, what's the odds that we would be any different? :(
The fall happened because it happened. If there were 5 holy people in the city (which there were more than that methinks), it still would have fallen.

PP

You both do not get it. Read your scripture, God allowed Constantinople to fall because we fell from God.
I missed the sction in scripture about Constantinople. Was that in Acts?

NOTE: Not every world power falls because it fell from God. Constantinople fell because of the ineptitude of a series of rulers.

PP
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: arimethea on April 02, 2012, 01:13:35 PM
Here's an  interesting tidbit about Constantinople.  This very devout woman told me that Sultan Mehmet II after having captured the city would see shadows of a hand with five fingers.  It was driving him crazy so one day he decided to  see a holy person and find out the meaning was.  The monk told not to worry and that it had nothing to do with him.  What it meant was that  had there been five truly good people in Constantinople the city would never have fallen.

The future saint Elder Paisios said the same thing about Cyprus.  He said no one was to blame for what happened but the Cypriots themselves. And let this all be a lesson to us all.....  

REPENT, REPENT, REPENT! :angel:

if there weren't 5 holy people there, what's the odds that we would be any different? :(
The fall happened because it happened. If there were 5 holy people in the city (which there were more than that methinks), it still would have fallen.

PP

You both do not get it. Read your scripture, God allowed Constantinople to fall because we fell from God.
I missed the sction in scripture about Constantinople. Was that in Acts?

NOTE: Not every world power falls because it fell from God. Constantinople fell because of the ineptitude of a series of rulers.

PP

Perhaps we need to split this tangent off.

Everything happens in relation to God. Acts is not Scripture, it is Apostolic writings. Scripture is the "Old Testament" and in reading it through the eyes of the Gospels and Apostolic writings we are able to understand that everything is about God and our relationship with him. Misfortune continues to happen because we sin and the misfortune is given to us as a gift from God to remind us of our sinful ways so we can correct.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Orest on April 02, 2012, 02:32:47 PM

If you look up pictures of Halki you will see that it is ready to open the doors tomorrow. The class rooms are clean and set up with books sitting on the desk. There is a group of monks who live and take care of the facilities there. All they need is the faculty and students.

No computers?  And who would study there?  Do you really think the Turks would grant student visas for foreign students to come?
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: primuspilus on April 02, 2012, 02:39:34 PM
Quote
Everything happens in relation to God
Im not saying that is not the case. however, God lets things happen because they happen. Its just like the tornado argument. A guy builds a house in Tornado alley and then screams to God, "Why did you let a tornado destroy my house?!?!?" When the tornado destroys his house. God's respose? "Its called tornado alley for a reason."

Quote
Misfortune continues to happen because we sin
True, however misfortune also happens by stupid decisions. Ask anyone who invested into tech bubble companies in the '90's.

Quote
misfortune is given to us as a gift from God to remind us of our sinful ways so we can correct.
Oftentimes this is true.

Quote
Acts is not Scripture, it is Apostolic writings
Our definitions of scripture might be different then.

PP
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Asteriktos on April 02, 2012, 02:53:54 PM
Acts is not Scripture, it is Apostolic writings. Scripture is the "Old Testament" and in reading it through the eyes of the Gospels and Apostolic writings we are able to understand that everything is about God and our relationship with him.

That's a distinction that has weight with about 14 people in the modern western world. I don't think any of them post on this forum, though.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Zenovia on April 02, 2012, 04:04:29 PM
Here's an  interesting tidbit about Constantinople.  This very devout woman told me that Sultan Mehmet II after having captured the city would see shadows of a hand with five fingers.  It was driving him crazy so one day he decided to  see a holy person and find out the meaning was.  The monk told not to worry and that it had nothing to do with him.  What it meant was that  had there been five truly good people in Constantinople the city would never have fallen.

The future saint Elder Paisios said the same thing about Cyprus.  He said no one was to blame for what happened but the Cypriots themselves. And let this all be a lesson to us all.....  

REPENT, REPENT, REPENT! :angel:

if there weren't 5 holy people there, what's the odds that we would be any different? :(
The fall happened because it happened. If there were 5 holy people in the city (which there were more than that methinks), it still would have fallen.

PP

You both do not get it. Read your scripture, God allowed Constantinople to fall because we fell from God.
I missed the sction in scripture about Constantinople. Was that in Acts?

NOTE: Not every world power falls because it fell from God. Constantinople fell because of the ineptitude of a series of rulers.

PP

I have my own opinion on this.  A few years ago someone from Greece did some work in New Orleans.  One of the things he was amazed at was the extent of the occult.   When I heard this, my first reaction was New Orleans is in for it.  Well two years later the worse happened. 

I know that the occult was prevalent in the city of Smyrna before the fires, massacres and ethnic cleansing by the Turks in 1923.  As a matter of fact they even had a TV series in Greece called the Witches of Smyrna.  I also know the occult was prevalent in Russia  before the revolution, and especially among the nobility.  It came into the royal family through  two Montenegran princesses who had married Grand Dukes that were cousins of the Tsar.  They were the ones that introduced Rasputan to the Tsarina.  Felix Yussopov once made referrence to one of their estates as containing all the evil in the world.  He was right.  An empire fell.      :o

 
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: primuspilus on April 02, 2012, 04:09:54 PM
Quote
have my own opinion on this.  A few years ago someone from Greece did some work in New Orleans.  One of the things he was amazed at was the extent of the occult.   When I heard this, my first reaction was New Orleans is in for it.  Well two years later the worse happened. 

I know that the occult was prevalent in the city of Smyrna before the fires, massacres and ethnic cleansing by the Turks in 1923.  As a matter of fact they even had a TV series in Greece called the Witches of Smyrna.  I also know the occult was prevalent in Russia  before the revolution, and especially among the nobility.  It came into the royal family through  two Montenegran princesses who had married Grand Dukes that were cousins of the Tsar.  They were the ones that introduced Rasputan to the Tsarina.  Felix Yussopov once made referrence to one of their estates as containing all the evil in the world.  He was right.  An empire fell.
I see your opinion. I just look for more obvious things. The russian empire fell because the Czar was inept, and allowed the communist movement to gain steam. Constantinople fell because of internal problem, and external issues that were beyond their control (the Crusader invasion really did damage that they never recovered from).

To me, not everything bad happens because of sin. Thats not to say things DONT happen because of that, but sometimes, things happen because it happens.


PP
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: podkarpatska on April 02, 2012, 04:30:07 PM
Quote
have my own opinion on this.  A few years ago someone from Greece did some work in New Orleans.  One of the things he was amazed at was the extent of the occult.   When I heard this, my first reaction was New Orleans is in for it.  Well two years later the worse happened. 

I know that the occult was prevalent in the city of Smyrna before the fires, massacres and ethnic cleansing by the Turks in 1923.  As a matter of fact they even had a TV series in Greece called the Witches of Smyrna.  I also know the occult was prevalent in Russia  before the revolution, and especially among the nobility.  It came into the royal family through  two Montenegran princesses who had married Grand Dukes that were cousins of the Tsar.  They were the ones that introduced Rasputan to the Tsarina.  Felix Yussopov once made referrence to one of their estates as containing all the evil in the world.  He was right.  An empire fell.
I see your opinion. I just look for more obvious things. The russian empire fell because the Czar was inept, and allowed the communist movement to gain steam. Constantinople fell because of internal problem, and external issues that were beyond their control (the Crusader invasion really did damage that they never recovered from).

To me, not everything bad happens because of sin. Thats not to say things DONT happen because of that, but sometimes, things happen because it happens.


PP

I agree with pp on this. One can venture very close to the allures of predeterminism or other Protestant heresies if you are not careful with the thinking that cities or peoples are 'punished'for specific actions. The flip side of such reasoning - i.e. a culture believes that its secular power and prosperity are rewards from God usually leads to disastrous consequences as well.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: primuspilus on April 02, 2012, 04:34:28 PM
Quote
a culture believes that its secular power and prosperity are rewards from God usually leads to disastrous consequences as well

Exhibit A:

(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTKcHEXyoaf8bMYIa_dBq823s1nkUphpTuG028Y-2UIyQeRESMPUjqSO0tSxA)

PP
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Zenovia on April 02, 2012, 04:35:41 PM
Here's an  interesting tidbit about Constantinople.  This very devout woman told me that Sultan Mehmet II after having captured the city would see shadows of a hand with five fingers.  It was driving him crazy so one day he decided to  see a holy person and find out the meaning was.  The monk told not to worry and that it had nothing to do with him.  What it meant was that  had there been five truly good people in Constantinople the city would never have fallen.

The future saint Elder Paisios said the same thing about Cyprus.  He said no one was to blame for what happened but the Cypriots themselves. And let this all be a lesson to us all..... 

REPENT, REPENT, REPENT! :angel:

if there weren't 5 holy people there, what's the odds that we would be any different? :(
The fall happened because it happened. If there were 5 holy people in the city (which there were more than that methinks), it still would have fallen.

PP

Since we're on the subject of Constantinople, this might be of interest.  Six months before the capture and fall of the city, a Latin Mass had been held in Aghia Sophia.  This so scandalized the Orthodox that they refused to enter the Church.   Throughout the six months the Venetians were fighting the Genovese, and the Greeks the Italians.  The fighting all stopped the day before the Turks broke through the walls.  That's when they ran into the church...a little too late methinks.

I read that on that day  a white mist  was seen rising from Aghia Sophia.  This probably frightened them because they  saw it as a sign that  the Holy Spirit was leaving  the  Church.  Anyway if we're going to believe Scriptures, then the people that God wanted to save had already left the city.   :angel:
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Zenovia on April 02, 2012, 04:48:48 PM
Here's an  interesting tidbit about Constantinople.  This very devout woman told me that Sultan Mehmet II after having captured the city would see shadows of a hand with five fingers.  It was driving him crazy so one day he decided to  see a holy person and find out the meaning was.  The monk told not to worry and that it had nothing to do with him.  What it meant was that  had there been five truly good people in Constantinople the city would never have fallen.

The future saint Elder Paisios said the same thing about Cyprus.  He said no one was to blame for what happened but the Cypriots themselves. And let this all be a lesson to us all..... 

REPENT, REPENT, REPENT! :angel:

if there weren't 5 holy people there, what's the odds that we would be any different? :(
The fall happened because it happened. If there were 5 holy people in the city (which there were more than that methinks), it still would have fallen.

PP

Since we're on the subject of Constantinople, this might be of interest.  Six months before the capture and fall of the city, a Latin Mass had been held in Aghia Sophia.  This so scandalized the Orthodox that they refused to enter the Church.   Throughout the six months the Venetians were fighting the Genovese, and the Greeks the Italians.  The fighting all stopped the day before the Turks broke through the walls.  That's when they ran into the church...a little too late methinks.

I read that on that day  a white mist  was seen rising from Aghia Sophia.  This probably frightened them because they  saw it as a sign that  the Holy Spirit was leaving  the  Church.  Anyway if we're going to believe Scriptures, then the people that God wanted to save had already left the city.   :angel:

And my motto in all this is:  Don't ever stop praying for six months, or you're in for it.  :o
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: biro on April 02, 2012, 04:50:03 PM
Quote from: Zenovia
And my motto in all this is:  Don't ever stop praying for six months, or you're in for it.  :o

Worth remembering.  :angel:
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: primuspilus on April 02, 2012, 04:54:21 PM
Quote
Six months before the capture and fall of the city, a Latin Mass had been held in Aghia Sophia
There was also a liturgy the night before the city fell. You can look at it how you want, I look at it as Christians laying their differences aside, worshipping God before they would die together as warriors, Emperor and pauper alike.

Quote
I read that on that day  a white mist  was seen rising from Aghia Sophia
This sounds like a Pasadi post.

In all seriousness, I would ask was this an eyewitness account? If so, why did this coward not defend his city from the invaders? if it is not an eyewitness account, can you really trust it?

Quote
Anyway if we're going to believe Scriptures, then the people that God wanted to save had already left the city
Yep, because God hates Ecumenists  ::)

PP
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: podkarpatska on April 02, 2012, 05:09:45 PM
Here's an  interesting tidbit about Constantinople.  This very devout woman told me that Sultan Mehmet II after having captured the city would see shadows of a hand with five fingers.  It was driving him crazy so one day he decided to  see a holy person and find out the meaning was.  The monk told not to worry and that it had nothing to do with him.  What it meant was that  had there been five truly good people in Constantinople the city would never have fallen.

The future saint Elder Paisios said the same thing about Cyprus.  He said no one was to blame for what happened but the Cypriots themselves. And let this all be a lesson to us all.....  

REPENT, REPENT, REPENT! :angel:

if there weren't 5 holy people there, what's the odds that we would be any different? :(
The fall happened because it happened. If there were 5 holy people in the city (which there were more than that methinks), it still would have fallen.

PP

Since we're on the subject of Constantinople, this might be of interest.  Six months before the capture and fall of the city, a Latin Mass had been held in Aghia Sophia.  This so scandalized the Orthodox that they refused to enter the Church.   Throughout the six months the Venetians were fighting the Genovese, and the Greeks the Italians.  The fighting all stopped the day before the Turks broke through the walls.  That's when they ran into the church...a little too late methinks.

I read that on that day  a white mist  was seen rising from Aghia Sophia.  This probably frightened them because they  saw it as a sign that  the Holy Spirit was leaving  the  Church.  Anyway if we're going to believe Scriptures, then the people that God wanted to save had already left the city.   :angel:

There are plenty of stories and myths about the last days of Byzantium. The reality is that even discounting the failure of the false Union at Florence to take hold, the 'schism' of 1054 was never as clear cut in terms of division and non-communion as we are in today's world until several hundred years following Cardinal Humbert's ill-fated acts. The last Benedictine Monastery left Mt. Athos during the late 13th century- possibly during lives still in being at the time of the fall. The Venetian allies of the City were praying with the Greeks and holding their own masses in Hagia Sophia at the time of the entry of Mehmet according to many histories of the fateful day. It is difficult to read the histories of the last months of the  great Christian City (I would urge that one read from multiple sources - not just Greek ones - ) and conclude that no righteous Orthodox were remaining in the City. Such a belief discredits and crys out against the souls of the tens of thousands of Christian men, women and children who were brutalized, raped and murdered following the Turks entry into the city.  Eternal be their memories.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Zenovia on April 02, 2012, 06:55:32 PM
Here's an  interesting tidbit about Constantinople.  This very devout woman told me that Sultan Mehmet II after having captured the city would see shadows of a hand with five fingers.  It was driving him crazy so one day he decided to  see a holy person and find out the meaning was.  The monk told not to worry and that it had nothing to do with him.  What it meant was that  had there been five truly good people in Constantinople the city would never have fallen.

The future saint Elder Paisios said the same thing about Cyprus.  He said no one was to blame for what happened but the Cypriots themselves. And let this all be a lesson to us all.....  

REPENT, REPENT, REPENT! :angel:

if there weren't 5 holy people there, what's the odds that we would be any different? :(
The fall happened because it happened. If there were 5 holy people in the city (which there were more than that methinks), it still would have fallen.

PP

Since we're on the subject of Constantinople, this might be of interest.  Six months before the capture and fall of the city, a Latin Mass had been held in Aghia Sophia.  This so scandalized the Orthodox that they refused to enter the Church.   Throughout the six months the Venetians were fighting the Genovese, and the Greeks the Italians.  The fighting all stopped the day before the Turks broke through the walls.  That's when they ran into the church...a little too late methinks.

I read that on that day  a white mist  was seen rising from Aghia Sophia.  This probably frightened them because they  saw it as a sign that  the Holy Spirit was leaving  the  Church.  Anyway if we're going to believe Scriptures, then the people that God wanted to save had already left the city.   :angel:

There are plenty of stories and myths about the last days of Byzantium. The reality is that even discounting the failure of the false Union at Florence to take hold, the 'schism' of 1054 was never as clear cut in terms of division and non-communion as we are in today's world until several hundred years following Cardinal Humbert's ill-fated acts. The last Benedictine Monastery left Mt. Athos during the late 13th century- possibly during lives still in being at the time of the fall. The Venetian allies of the City were praying with the Greeks and holding their own masses in Hagia Sophia at the time of the entry of Mehmet according to many histories of the fateful day. It is difficult to read the histories of the last months of the  great Christian City (I would urge that one read from multiple sources - not just Greek ones - ) and conclude that no righteous Orthodox were remaining in the City. Such a belief discredits and crys out against the souls of the tens of thousands of Christian men, women and children who were brutalized, raped and murdered following the Turks entry into the city.  Eternal be their memories.

I think people and especially Greeks have to stop believing that every Greek that dies at the hands of an enemy is a martyr.  Contrary to what they believe the Greco/Romans were  not sinless.  If that was the case then we would have to disregard the Bible as well as what the saints tell us.  Of course among those people  killed, there are bound to be some true martyrs.   I don't mean that we should judge and say on the other hand that they were all diserved of what they got.  That's something only God knows...

By one account, the population of Constantinople was not  high at the time and  the city was quite run down.  They had close relations with the Italians  so many of the educated had left for Italy.  The wealthy had homes on Lesvos and Chios and were probably not in Constantinople at the time..  The killing lasted only three days, so again many would have survived, not to mention the ones that escaped to the Genovese city of Pera.  And then there were those that  were taken as slaves, so there are bound to be accounts of what happened.

As an example that all Orthodox are not martyrs,  we have to assume the amount of people that died because of the Russian revolution was about twenty million. ...Of course I might be wrong in this.  I believe  it was Saint John Maximovitch (I'm not sure),  that said  had the people before the Bolshevik revolution followed Saint John Kronstadt they would not have taken over Russia.  If we consider that at the funeral of Saint John Kronstadt there were sixty thousand people, and that he had so many for confession that he had to have open confession,  then  it can only mean that the percentage of truly Christian Russians simply wasn't enough.. that is if we were take the Bible literally.  

I  also recall reading  that even though Tsarist Russia gave the impression of being a very religious nation, especially to  foreigners, that in actuality their religion was simply an outward expression and that the priests  were to blame since the people follow their priests.  Not to repeat myself, but I guess it comes down to one thing....

REPENT, REPENT, REPENT!  :angel:


 
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Asteriktos on April 02, 2012, 07:01:08 PM
REPENT, REPENT, REPENT! :angel:
REPENT, REPENT, REPENT!  :angel:

This could be the chorus to a Christian metalcore song...

REPENT!!! (Jesus Christ said)
REPENT!!!  (Holy Spirit led)
REPENT!!! (Tears of faith shed)
REPENT!!! (The old man is dead)

Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Zenovia on April 02, 2012, 07:04:54 PM
REPENT, REPENT, REPENT! :angel:
REPENT, REPENT, REPENT!  :angel:

This could be the chorus to a Christian metalcore song...

REPENT!!! (Jesus Christ said)
REPENT!!!  (Holy Spirit led)
REPENT!!! (Tears of faith shed)
REPENT!!! (The old man is dead)



Aha!  So you're not repenting!  Watch out, before you get hit on the head with something.  :o
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Asteriktos on April 02, 2012, 07:07:23 PM
REPENT, REPENT, REPENT! :angel:
REPENT, REPENT, REPENT!  :angel:

This could be the chorus to a Christian metalcore song...

REPENT!!! (Jesus Christ said)
REPENT!!!  (Holy Spirit led)
REPENT!!! (Tears of faith shed)
REPENT!!! (The old man is dead)



Aha!  So you're not repenting!  Watch out, before you get hit on the head with something.  :o

Oh I repented, and the heavy--nearly unbearable--penance given was listening to Christian metalcore  ;D
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: biro on April 02, 2012, 07:23:13 PM
The hosts of 'Our Life in Christ' used to joke that one week, they would do the show this way: "Hi, welcome to the show.

Repent.

See you next week."

;)
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Basil 320 on April 02, 2012, 10:37:29 PM
Re. Reply No. 77

I think His All Holiness does act somewhat paranoid, but to the extent that anyone might, being raised as a minority Greek ethnic and Orthodox Christian among the Turks and the Moslem majority, having witnessed first hand the dissolution of the Greek ethnic minority and Greek Orthodox Christian community in his life time, especially on his native island of Imvros.   I think that is why he is very aggressive in the execution of his responsibilities as Ecumenical Patriarch.  He may believe he could very well be the last qualified hierarch to serve as Ecumenical Patriarch, as a resident of The Phanar.  That may be true, but I think it is the reason why some, especially on this forum, question and challenge his ancient canonical responsibilities.  His aggressiveness is exemplified in his dealing with the Orthodox Christians of Estonia who refused to be subject to Moscow, and by the Constitutional Charter the Ecumenical Patriarchate "granted" to the Holy Archdiocese of America in 2003.  There is no reason why this 80 year old (at that time) Archdiocese that exists thousands of miles from The Phanar, as well organized as it is, as well funded as it is, with it own substantive seminary, its number of prosperous parishes, its continued growth, etc., should not have been given the essentially semi-autonomous status that was sought by the constitutional charter proposed by the Eparchial Synod of America, in consultation with a representative committee of the Archdiocesan Council.  The charters of 1923, its 1927 amendments, and 1979 had been essentially written in the U.S.; the 2003 charter was written in Constantinople.  The Holy Archdiocese of America should be able to elect it own bishops (perhaps from among a list of eligible candidates previously approved by Constantinople), the American Eparchial Synod should at least nominate the Three Person Ballot for the office of the Archbishop's election, and Clergy-Laity Congress decisions should not require the approval of the Mother Church. The most bizarre clause of this charter is the metropolitans commemoration of His All Holiness, instead of the "First Among Them," His Eminence, the Archbishop of America--it is a slap in the face of His Eminence that His All Holiness is commemorated by the regional metropolitans.  In fairness, the American bishops supported this manner of commemoration in their reaction to the aggressive leadership they had been subject to under Archbishop Iakovos.  In fact, the Patriarchate has even become more controlling recently by calling newly elected bishops to The Phanar for the reading of the Lesser and Great Mandate of their election.  This ceremony has always either been read to the metropolitan-elect at the Archdiocesan Chapel, the Archdiocesan Cathedral, or it's been included in the enthronement in the metropolis cathedral.

Patriarch Bartholomew is eminently qualified for his "God-Chosen" office, exceptionally intelligent, well educated, and groomed professionally, having served  the Personal Patriarchal Office of his predecessor, Patriarch Dimitrios; the office responsible for the Patriarch's responsibilities as Eastern Orthodoxy's "First Among Equals."  So, perhaps my opinions are wrong and the manner in which he is executing his responsibilities will prove to be beneficial for the future of the Patriarchate.  After all, when, in his enthronement address, Patriarch Bartholomew articulated his desire to reopen the Halki Seminary, most thought this statement was hyperbolic, not even a realistic request, yet, today, over 20 years later, we see it may be coming about.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Zenovia on April 03, 2012, 03:55:01 PM
After all, when, in his enthronement address, Patriarch Bartholomew articulated his desire to reopen the Halki Seminary, most thought this statement was hyperbolic, not even a realistic request, yet, today, over 20 years later, we see it may be coming about.

Not so!  Turkey blames Greece for not opening Halki.  One can only imagine what the Turkish demands were.  Anyway these past few days there have been combined military exercises by Greece, Israel and the U.S., and their focus has been Turkey because of its threats on the Cypriot and Israeli off shore gas fields.   :-[
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: podkarpatska on April 03, 2012, 04:01:42 PM
Re. Reply No. 77

I think His All Holiness does act somewhat paranoid, but to the extent that anyone might, being raised as a minority Greek ethnic and Orthodox Christian among the Turks and the Moslem majority, having witnessed first hand the dissolution of the Greek ethnic minority and Greek Orthodox Christian community in his life time, especially on his native island of Imvros.   I think that is why he is very aggressive in the execution of his responsibilities as Ecumenical Patriarch.  He may believe he could very well be the last qualified hierarch to serve as Ecumenical Patriarch, as a resident of The Phanar.  That may be true, but I think it is the reason why some, especially on this forum, question and challenge his ancient canonical responsibilities.  His aggressiveness is exemplified in his dealing with the Orthodox Christians of Estonia who refused to be subject to Moscow, and by the Constitutional Charter the Ecumenical Patriarchate "granted" to the Holy Archdiocese of America in 2003.  There is no reason why this 80 year old (at that time) Archdiocese that exists thousands of miles from The Phanar, as well organized as it is, as well funded as it is, with it own substantive seminary, its number of prosperous parishes, its continued growth, etc., should not have been given the essentially semi-autonomous status that was sought by the constitutional charter proposed by the Eparchial Synod of America, in consultation with a representative committee of the Archdiocesan Council.  The charters of 1923, its 1927 amendments, and 1979 had been essentially written in the U.S.; the 2003 charter was written in Constantinople.  The Holy Archdiocese of America should be able to elect it own bishops (perhaps from among a list of eligible candidates previously approved by Constantinople), the American Eparchial Synod should at least nominate the Three Person Ballot for the office of the Archbishop's election, and Clergy-Laity Congress decisions should not require the approval of the Mother Church. The most bizarre clause of this charter is the metropolitans commemoration of His All Holiness, instead of the "First Among Them," His Eminence, the Archbishop of America--it is a slap in the face of His Eminence that His All Holiness is commemorated by the regional metropolitans.  In fairness, the American bishops supported this manner of commemoration in their reaction to the aggressive leadership they had been subject to under Archbishop Iakovos.  In fact, the Patriarchate has even become more controlling recently by calling newly elected bishops to The Phanar for the reading of the Lesser and Great Mandate of their election.  This ceremony has always either been read to the metropolitan-elect at the Archdiocesan Chapel, the Archdiocesan Cathedral, or it's been included in the enthronement in the metropolis cathedral.

Patriarch Bartholomew is eminently qualified for his "God-Chosen" office, exceptionally intelligent, well educated, and groomed professionally, having served  the Personal Patriarchal Office of his predecessor, Patriarch Dimitrios; the office responsible for the Patriarch's responsibilities as Eastern Orthodoxy's "First Among Equals."  So, perhaps my opinions are wrong and the manner in which he is executing his responsibilities will prove to be beneficial for the future of the Patriarchate.  After all, when, in his enthronement address, Patriarch Bartholomew articulated his desire to reopen the Halki Seminary, most thought this statement was hyperbolic, not even a realistic request, yet, today, over 20 years later, we see it may be coming about.

I agree with you and I am curious - is the Patriarch commemorated throughout the Liturgy or just at the Great Entrance? In ACROD we used to commemorate him wherever the 'old books' from the pre-Orthodox days which were printed in L'viv or Uzhorod prior to WW2 used to commemorate the Pope. Today we only commemorate the Patriarch at the Great Entrance. I was at a UOC-USA parish the other week and in their Liturgy pew book they mention that they are under the Omophorion of the Patriarchate, but the only commemorations in their book are for their own Metropolitan and their particular Diocesan Bishop.

Also, both ACROD since 1937 and the UOC-USA since the early 1990's when she came under the omophorion, were granted the right to elect their own candidate bishop for presentment to the Holy Synod at the Phanar after a local Sobor of the priests determined the election. (I know - this is the same practice as the UGCC in the election of their bishops but....)  While they could, I doubt they would dare deny a candidate consecration and enthronement. (For example, in 1966 the Synod approved the consecration of Father John Martin as Bishop although he had only recently that year left the BCC and converted to Orthodoxy.) It seems that little old us - ACROD and UOC - who combined are smaller than any of GOARCH's metropolises have greater rights in this matter than do the metropolises. As to the issue of having the letters read at the Phanar, I know that in 1938 Fr. Orestes Chornock travelled to Constantinople for his consecration and enthronement but that was the norm then as the only other Bishops here besides one Greek one were Metropolia and that wasn't gonna work out then.  How so do your parishes tolerate less rights than are afforded your Slavic cousins?
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Basil 320 on April 03, 2012, 07:38:44 PM
Re. Reply to Reply No. 102

Pursuant to the current GOAA Constitutional Charter, the Archbishop of America and the metropolitans commemorate the Patriarch at the "En protis," "First of All, remember..."  They refer to him as "Our Father and Archbishop..."  They also commemorate him after the "Holy God, Holy and Mighty..." by his Pheme (poem) or Anthem, intoned, then they chant the Anthem of the Ecumenical Patriarch, "Bartholomew, the All-Holy and Ecumenical Patriarch, Many Years."  Thereafter, the priests intone and chant the Anthem of their Metropolitan, "_________, the Most Reverend and God-Chosen Metropolitan, of the Holy Metropolis of ________, our spiritual Father and Shepard, Many Years."

Although not specified in the Charter, at the Great Entrance, the hierarchs commemorate the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Holy and Sacred Synod, which is followed by a commemoration of His Eminence the Archbishop of America and the Eparchial Synod.

Again, under the Charter of '79, it was the Archbishop of America, the "First Among Them,"  who the diocesan bishops commemorated at the "First of All, remember Lord...." and likewise after "Holy God, Holy Mighty..."  The bishop of my diocese at the time, would commemorate the Ecumenical Patriarch as "Our Father and Patriarch," along with the Holy and Sacred Synod of Constantinople, at the Great Entrance.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: Basil 320 on April 03, 2012, 09:04:53 PM
I wasn't clear when I said that the commemoration of the Patriarch is made after "Holy God..."  His Pheme is actually intoned and chanted after that hymn, after "Lord, Lord, look down from heaven..." (3),  and following "And hear us."

Further, I am referring to Hierarchal Liturgies.  The parish priests and deacons commemorate their metropolitan, except in the Direct Archdiocesan District, wherein the Archbishop of America is commemorated by the priests and deacons.

At the Great Litany, only the metropolitan of the metropolis or the Archbishop of the Direct Archdiocesan District in New York is commemorated.

As to how do we tolerate the diminished rights under the 2003 Charter, I can only say our hierarchs and some of our lay leadership are afraid to stand up to the Patriarch.   A few active lay leaders stepped back from involvement in national affairs, after the charter fight.  The 2002 Clergy-Laity Congress had objected to numerous articles of the proposed charter, (I can't recall how many objections), but the Patriarchate only accepted one change, the specified frequency of Clergy-Laity Congress, which the Patriarchate (perhaps our Synod too, I'm not sure) wanted to extend them to every 3 years, vs. the bi-annual cycle we've been on for over 60 years.  It seems to me, Archbishop Demetrios puts up with a lot from the Mother Church, but he does stand up on significant issues, usually behind the scenes.
Title: Re: Turkey To Reopen Halki Seminary, Obama says
Post by: mike on April 04, 2012, 10:14:29 AM
Metropolitan Elphidophoros comments: http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2012/04/cleric-hopeful-over-reopening-of-istanbul-greek-seminary/