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Moderated Forums => Free-For-All => Religious Topics => Topic started by: Nigula Qian Zishi on March 08, 2012, 06:41:28 PM

Title: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PUSSY RIOT On Trial For Church Protest / Aleksandr Dugin on "Pussy Riots" global blackmail
Post by: Nigula Qian Zishi on March 08, 2012, 06:41:28 PM
Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
by Claire Bigg

Public outrage is mounting over the jailing of two Russian women accused of staging an illegal anti-Kremlin performance in Moscow's largest church.

...

Not all Orthodox, however, back the legal assault against Pussy Riot.

Many say they are embarrassed by their church's reaction so far and thousands have signed an open letter calling on Patriarch Kirill, who has yet to react publicly on the matter, to intercede in their favor.

"Most of us believe such behavior in a church is unacceptable," says the letter. "But we consider that the reaction to this incident -- the prosecution, the detention, and the harsh comments by members of the Orthodox Church toward participants of the 'punk prayer' -- has been even more unacceptable."

See more at http://www.rferl.org/content/protesters_demand_release_of_feminist_punk_group_members_russia/24509227.html (http://www.rferl.org/content/protesters_demand_release_of_feminist_punk_group_members_russia/24509227.html)
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: First Man on March 08, 2012, 07:57:16 PM

Not all Orthodox, however, back the legal assault against Pussy Riot.



oh dear...
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Iconodule on March 08, 2012, 10:42:25 PM
Quote
Another group of sympathizers plans to hold a Mass at Christ the Savior Cathedral on March 9 in support of the jailed activists.

How exactly does that work?

Good to see some faithful standing up for what's right.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Ionnis on March 08, 2012, 11:48:54 PM
Sadly the MP is seen as a joke these days. The MP should apologize for all the criminals that it harbors and should lead an inquisition against them, not some girl band. It should thank the band for exposing the infection that threatens to destroy the Russian Church.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: mathetes on March 09, 2012, 10:38:19 AM
Sadly the MP is seen as a joke these days. The MP should apologize for all the criminals that it harbors and should lead an inquisition against them, not some girl band. It should thank the band for exposing the infection that threatens to destroy the Russian Church.

As a U.S. citizen, I respect people's right to protest peacefully. Breaking into a church or other property, however, isn't peaceful or legal; and I don't see why should it be thought necessary for exposing an infection in the Russian Church. Surely there are ways for protesters to be angry and sin not (Ephesians 4:26). Why should anyone think a protest such as the one depicted was aimed at helping the Russian Church?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Schultz on March 09, 2012, 10:45:16 AM
Sadly the MP is seen as a joke these days. The MP should apologize for all the criminals that it harbors and should lead an inquisition against them, not some girl band. It should thank the band for exposing the infection that threatens to destroy the Russian Church.

As a U.S. citizen, I respect people's right to protest peacefully. Breaking into a church or other property, however, isn't peaceful or legal; and I don't see why should it be thought necessary for exposing an infection in the Russian Church. Surely there are ways for protesters to be angry and sin not (Ephesians 4:26). Why should anyone think a protest such as the one depicted was aimed at helping the Russian Church?

They didn't break into the church.

And you're missing the point.  By all means, punish the band for "disturbing the peace" or whatever.  However, it appears that the punishment is not fitting the crime, in this case. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Νεκτάριος on March 09, 2012, 10:49:15 AM
Sadly the MP is seen as a joke these days. The MP should apologize for all the criminals that it harbors and should lead an inquisition against them, not some girl band. It should thank the band for exposing the infection that threatens to destroy the Russian Church.

As a U.S. citizen, I respect people's right to protest peacefully. Breaking into a church or other property, however, isn't peaceful or legal; and I don't see why should it be thought necessary for exposing an infection in the Russian Church. Surely there are ways for protesters to be angry and sin not (Ephesians 4:26). Why should anyone think a protest such as the one depicted was aimed at helping the Russian Church?

They didn't break into anything.  There point was made loud and clear when a peaceful protest was met with strict punishment, yet the Church still loves money from oligarchs and the MP is so infatuated with Putin he can't control himself.   
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: LizaSymonenko on March 09, 2012, 10:54:21 AM

I just watched the video.

I'd like to see them try this in a mosque.

I don't care if they are "religous" or not....this "dance" was a slap in the face of Orthodoxy!

They could have done this outside on the sidewalk and all would have been well.  Demonstrate all you want.  Freedom of speech!

....but, not right in front of the Altar, mimicking and mocking Orthodoxy.

Shameful!

I don't support the MP, or his greediness, but, this was an insult to all of Orthodoxy, not just the MP.



Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Schultz on March 09, 2012, 10:57:20 AM

I just watched the video.

I'd like to see them try this in a mosque.

I don't care if they are "religous" or not....this "dance" was a slap in the face of Orthodoxy!

They could have done this outside on the sidewalk and all would have been well.  Demonstrate all you want.  Freedom of speech!

....but, not right in front of the Altar, mimicking and mocking Orthodoxy.

Shameful!

I don't support the MP, or his greediness, but, this was an insult to all of Orthodoxy, not just the MP.


Shameful, yes.

Punishable by seven years in prison, though?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: biro on March 09, 2012, 10:58:03 AM
Sadly the MP is seen as a joke these days. The MP should apologize for all the criminals that it harbors and should lead an inquisition against them, not some girl band. It should thank the band for exposing the infection that threatens to destroy the Russian Church.

Wow. Just wow.  :o
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: LizaSymonenko on March 09, 2012, 11:04:28 AM

I just watched the video.

I'd like to see them try this in a mosque.

I don't care if they are "religous" or not....this "dance" was a slap in the face of Orthodoxy!

They could have done this outside on the sidewalk and all would have been well.  Demonstrate all you want.  Freedom of speech!

....but, not right in front of the Altar, mimicking and mocking Orthodoxy.

Shameful!

I don't support the MP, or his greediness, but, this was an insult to all of Orthodoxy, not just the MP.


Shameful, yes.

Punishable by seven years in prison, though?

Seven years?  No.  That's too strict.  

However, it shouldn't be simply dismissed.

Perhaps these "mothers" would benefit from some counciling, religious education or community service.

Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Νεκτάριος on March 09, 2012, 11:10:10 AM
So the state should be used to enforce your piety?   On the list of crimes happening this hardly even ranks.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Schultz on March 09, 2012, 11:12:20 AM

I just watched the video.

I'd like to see them try this in a mosque.

I don't care if they are "religous" or not....this "dance" was a slap in the face of Orthodoxy!

They could have done this outside on the sidewalk and all would have been well.  Demonstrate all you want.  Freedom of speech!

....but, not right in front of the Altar, mimicking and mocking Orthodoxy.

Shameful!

I don't support the MP, or his greediness, but, this was an insult to all of Orthodoxy, not just the MP.


Shameful, yes.

Punishable by seven years in prison, though?

Seven years?  No.  That's too strict.  

However, it shouldn't be simply dismissed.

Perhaps these "mothers" would benefit from some counciling, religious education or community service.

And that's what the people behind the petition featured in the OP believe, too.  I have a very soft spot for all kinds of civil disobedience (provided there's an actual cause, even if I disagree with it), but even I think this one goes a bit too far, but that's also because I have a very strong sense of the sacred.  

The reaction by the authorities, both secular and religious, is over the top, IMHO.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: biro on March 09, 2012, 11:13:05 AM
These people weren't out to help anyone. They just wanted attention.

It's called disturbing the peace, and of course they'd get punished for it. Don't want to be arrested? Don't disrupt public services.

Their point was to get people interested in their name, of course. And if they have to do that, the music's probably not worth it.  ::)
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Schultz on March 09, 2012, 11:16:39 AM
These people weren't out to help anyone. They just wanted attention.

It's called disturbing the peace, and of course they'd get punished for it. Don't want to be arrested? Don't disrupt public services.

Their point was to get people interested in their name, of course. And if they have to do that, the music's probably not worth it.  ::)

Of course, they wanted attention.  They also wanted to call attention to the fact that they are angry and scared about the growing closeness between the church and the state in Russia and that they vehemently disagree with the policies and personage of Putin having as much power as he does.

They knew they would be cited for "disturbing the peace".  That's what civil disobedience is all about.  However, one should possibly be jailed for seven years for doing so.  This is, at most, a misdemeanor.  Their real crime is being critical of Putin and the fact that MP is, in many cases, in his back pocket.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Iconodule on March 09, 2012, 01:09:39 PM
These people weren't out to help anyone. They just wanted attention.

It's called disturbing the peace, and of course they'd get punished for it. Don't want to be arrested? Don't disrupt public services.

Their point was to get people interested in their name, of course. And if they have to do that, the music's probably not worth it.  ::)

So you support the seven years' sentence?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Iconodule on March 09, 2012, 01:10:52 PM
Was the ladies' choice of venue objectionable? Sure. But compared to the systemic complicity of the hierarchs with the corrupt Russian state, it's nothing.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: primuspilus on March 09, 2012, 02:05:58 PM
I think that they had the right message, but went about it in the wrong way, which did nothing but hurt their argument, and give a face to those in opposition to it. Every ad hominem will be used on those critical of the MP thanks to these girls.

7 years is ridiculous, and I doubt they'll get that.

PP
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: LizaSymonenko on March 09, 2012, 02:10:03 PM
So the state should be used to enforce your piety?   On the list of crimes happening this hardly even ranks.

My piety?  How's yours?

I would state that dancing on the ambo and ridiculing Orthodox gestures is an insult that was unecessary and didn't further any cause.  To ridicule God in His own house is not acceptable to me.  Perhaps you see it differently, and find what they did is permissable.  That's just a reflection of your piousness.  :)

Would you have felt differently if they had actually entered the Altar?  Or would that be okay, as well, because they were trying to make a good point against government corruption?

As for comparing this particular act to other crimes...that's a poor argument...and this OP is strictly in reference to the Pussy Riot, and  their efforts for publicity.
Feel free to start another thread on crimes of the MP, and I will be happy to join in, and support your views.

However, I cannot condone this act against Orthodoxy, MP jurisdiction, or not.

Seven years is too harsh, but, if these girls felt they had a right to demonstrate like this in a church, then the rest of us have a right to state that what they did was wrong.
I still say they should get some sort of community service...and perhaps a class in Orthodoxy.

They could have just as easily performed their stunt outside the church...but, no...they CHOSE to do it within the walls of a church.

Of course, there's always the option of turning the other cheek and letting God deal with them one day...

Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: primuspilus on March 09, 2012, 02:20:00 PM
Quote
They could have just as easily performed their stunt outside the church...but, no...they CHOSE to do it within the walls of a church
I thought they did all this outside......

PP
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: LizaSymonenko on March 09, 2012, 02:21:15 PM

The girls were dancing on the ambo, just in front of the ikonostas.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Schultz on March 09, 2012, 02:25:30 PM
So the state should be used to enforce your piety?   On the list of crimes happening this hardly even ranks.

My piety?  How's yours?

I would state that dancing on the ambo and ridiculing Orthodox gestures is an insult that was unecessary and didn't further any cause.  To ridicule God in His own house is not acceptable to me.  Perhaps you see it differently, and find what they did is permissable.  That's just a reflection of your piousness.  :)

Would you have felt differently if they had actually entered the Altar?  Or would that be okay, as well, because they were trying to make a good point against government corruption?

As for comparing this particular act to other crimes...that's a poor argument...and this OP is strictly in reference to the Pussy Riot, and  their efforts for publicity.
Feel free to start another thread on crimes of the MP, and I will be happy to join in, and support your views.

However, I cannot condone this act against Orthodoxy, MP jurisdiction, or not.

Seven years is too harsh, but, if these girls felt they had a right to demonstrate like this in a church, then the rest of us have a right to state that what they did was wrong.
I still say they should get some sort of community service...and perhaps a class in Orthodoxy.

They could have just as easily performed their stunt outside the church...but, no...they CHOSE to do it within the walls of a church.

Of course, there's always the option of turning the other cheek and letting God deal with them one day...



Liza,

No one is saying what they did was right.

We are talking about the fallout which also points to the fact that what these girls were talking about is correct.  honestly, I agree with you regarding sentencing them to community service.  That seems about right for a misdemeanor.

But there are apparently serious talks of hard time.  that's what's disgusts Nektarios, myself, and the people behind the petition in the OP.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: LizaSymonenko on March 09, 2012, 02:36:15 PM

Well if Nektarios had actually read my post (to which he replied) he would have seen that I was also against the 7 year punishment, and didn't warrant his comment.

Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Νεκτάριος on March 09, 2012, 03:39:58 PM
So the state should be used to enforce your piety?   On the list of crimes happening this hardly even ranks.

My piety?  How's yours?

I would state that dancing on the ambo and ridiculing Orthodox gestures is an insult that was unecessary and didn't further any cause.  To ridicule God in His own house is not acceptable to me.  Perhaps you see it differently, and find what they did is permissable.  That's just a reflection of your piousness.  :)

Russia is a secular state; people can't be prosecuted (legally) for violating the rules of piety.  That is why I object to using some sort of righteous indignation to feel that these singers must be punished.  So my question was valid - do you feel that secular legal authorities ought to be used to impose your piety?

Would you have felt differently if they had actually entered the Altar?  Or would that be okay, as well, because they were trying to make a good point against government corruption?

Personally?  I think it was in poor taste.  And if you (like me) find their publicity stunt to be in poor taste you can do the exact same thing I'm doing - not consuming their products.  Legally I'm not sure if it makes any difference whether they entered the altar or not.  I never deal with trespass or civil disturbance law for work, so I don't know.  I also don't know how Church ownership works in Russian law.  But regardless Russia is a secular state the and law should be applied according to the law not emotionally.

As for comparing this particular act to other crimes...that's a poor argument...and this OP is strictly in reference to the Pussy Riot, and  their efforts for publicity.
Feel free to start another thread on crimes of the MP, and I will be happy to join in, and support your views.

However, I cannot condone this act against Orthodoxy, MP jurisdiction, or not.

But the two are very related.  In Russian (and Ukrainian) society a large class of people (the hierarchs of the church included) operate with absolute impunity.  These people are committing real crimes that ruin peoples' lives.  In this little stunt nobody was injured, no harm was done and you want the law to be applied?  That is why normal people don't take Orthodoxy seriously in Russia and Ukraine.  As it has been mentioned, the Patriarch hasn't come out on this issue yet - it will be interesting to see what, if anything, comes of it.   

Seven years is too harsh, but, if these girls felt they had a right to demonstrate like this in a church, then the rest of us have a right to state that what they did was wrong.
I still say they should get some sort of community service...and perhaps a class in Orthodoxy.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: xariskai on April 05, 2012, 12:36:56 PM
I wonder what public and judicial opinion might be in the U. S. if a punk "God Riot" band played anti-abortion songs in an abortion clinic and resisted requests by management there for them to leave.

Hopefully not seven years in prison, but then again the law simply states seven years as the maximum, not the minimum, allowing judicial flexibility given the range of possible events of the type that might occur. For example, few would suppose just a slap on the wrist was sufficient if it was a punk Nazi Riot band in a Mosque or Synagogue, or a punk Polticial Riot band in a government building.

IMO the Church should say publicly, if asked for further public comment, that they are praying for the criminals, but that their fate is in the hands of the state, and that it is impossible to simply say what they did does not matter so much and that they should be let off with a grin and lol without inviting every person with a cause to turn every church, mosque, and synagogue in the country into a potential three ring circus, but that what exactly should or will be done is not a church matter.

If a band wants to play in a cathedral without permission they should build their own or buy a green screen.

Here is a youtube of the original event: http://youtu.be/GCasuaAczKY
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: biro on April 05, 2012, 01:14:01 PM
These people weren't out to help anyone. They just wanted attention.

It's called disturbing the peace, and of course they'd get punished for it. Don't want to be arrested? Don't disrupt public services.

Their point was to get people interested in their name, of course. And if they have to do that, the music's probably not worth it.  ::)

So you support the seven years' sentence?

Well, no. Not seven years. Maybe a few months in minimum security, and then community service.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Babalon on April 05, 2012, 02:59:17 PM

I just watched the video.

I'd like to see them try this in a mosque.


I don't care if they are "religous" or not....this "dance" was a slap in the face of Orthodoxy!

They could have done this outside on the sidewalk and all would have been well.  Demonstrate all you want.  Freedom of speech!

....but, not right in front of the Altar, mimicking and mocking Orthodoxy.

Shameful!

I don't support the MP, or his greediness, but, this was an insult to all of Orthodoxy, not just the MP.





I'm not sure how that was relevant.

Do you know what they're saying in the song?

Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: 88Devin12 on April 05, 2012, 03:08:41 PM
They definitely do deserve a prison sentence, but 7 years is way too extreme.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Babalon on April 05, 2012, 03:23:32 PM
They definitely do deserve a prison sentence, but 7 years is way too extreme.

And what kind of sentence would you see as "fitting" for this horrendous crime?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: LizaSymonenko on April 05, 2012, 03:50:59 PM

I just watched the video.

I'd like to see them try this in a mosque.


I don't care if they are "religous" or not....this "dance" was a slap in the face of Orthodoxy!

They could have done this outside on the sidewalk and all would have been well.  Demonstrate all you want.  Freedom of speech!

....but, not right in front of the Altar, mimicking and mocking Orthodoxy.

Shameful!

I don't support the MP, or his greediness, but, this was an insult to all of Orthodoxy, not just the MP.





I'm not sure how that was relevant.

Do you know what they're saying in the song?



Which part do think not relevant?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Babalon on April 05, 2012, 03:58:54 PM

I just watched the video.

I'd like to see them try this in a mosque.


I don't care if they are "religous" or not....this "dance" was a slap in the face of Orthodoxy!

They could have done this outside on the sidewalk and all would have been well.  Demonstrate all you want.  Freedom of speech!

....but, not right in front of the Altar, mimicking and mocking Orthodoxy.

Shameful!

I don't support the MP, or his greediness, but, this was an insult to all of Orthodoxy, not just the MP.





I'm not sure how that was relevant.

Do you know what they're saying in the song?



Which part do think not relevant?


The part about the mosque. I found it rather unnecessary.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: LizaSymonenko on April 05, 2012, 04:37:05 PM
Oh...well, my point was that in comparison, the reaction they got from such a demonstration within a "church" is nothing compared to what would have awaited them had they done such a number within a "mosque".

From recent news articles:  Egyptian Court Sentences 17-Year-Old Christian Boy To Three Years In Jail For Cartoons of Mohammad on Facebook

http://jonathanturley.org/2012/04/05/egyptian-court-sentences-17-year-old-christian-boy-to-three-years-in-jail-for-cartoons-of-mohamm-on-facebook/

Everyone is up in arms over these young people (and I also agree that prison is simply too harsh a judgment) however, nobody blinks an eye when it's an Islamic judgment.

Sorry, if you felt it irrelevant.  That's part of a discussion forum.  What's relevant to one poster, isn't to another.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Babalon on April 05, 2012, 04:51:29 PM
Oh...well, my point was that in comparison, the reaction they got from such a demonstration within a "church" is nothing compared to what would have awaited them had they done such a number within a "mosque".

From recent news articles:  Egyptian Court Sentences 17-Year-Old Christian Boy To Three Years In Jail For Cartoons of Mohammad on Facebook

http://jonathanturley.org/2012/04/05/egyptian-court-sentences-17-year-old-christian-boy-to-three-years-in-jail-for-cartoons-of-mohamm-on-facebook/

Everyone is up in arms over these young people (and I also agree that prison is simply too harsh a judgment) however, nobody blinks an eye when it's an Islamic judgment.

Sorry, if you felt it irrelevant.  That's part of a discussion forum.  What's relevant to one poster, isn't to another.


Yes. that's certainly terrible. But it's no secret that the religious laws in the middle east, and the middle east as a whole are/is fairly volatile.
I don't know where you get the idea that Islamic fundamentalism goes unnoticed..

Still, i still don't see the point in bring in the Islam-complaints into this. This is about Russian, "Christian", punk-rock, feminist, protestors.

Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: 88Devin12 on April 05, 2012, 06:43:52 PM
They definitely do deserve a prison sentence, but 7 years is way too extreme.

And what kind of sentence would you see as "fitting" for this horrendous crime?

Probably something like 1-2 months, not long at all...
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Νεκτάριος on April 05, 2012, 06:50:06 PM
They definitely do deserve a prison sentence, but 7 years is way too extreme.

And what kind of sentence would you see as "fitting" for this horrendous crime?

Probably something like 1-2 months, not long at all...

They are already approaching that much time in custody. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Asteriktos on April 05, 2012, 06:55:17 PM
Orthodoxy: we're pro-family, unless you offend our sense of propriety, then you're screwed.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: laconicstudent on April 06, 2012, 04:30:33 AM
They definitely do deserve a prison sentence, but 7 years is way too extreme.

And what kind of sentence would you see as "fitting" for this horrendous crime?

Probably something like 1-2 months, not long at all...

1-2 months for disturbing the peace? That's an absurdly long sentence. I know people who have disturbed the peace. The cops tell them to shut up and go home or they'll get cited with a municipal ordinance violation and a ticket.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: JamesR on April 06, 2012, 05:11:40 AM
I do not know much about the subject, but, there is no denying that what they did is not acceptable in an Orthodox Church; at least from a religious standpoint. Should they be prosecuted? Eh depends. I think that seven years is way to harsh and that making this such a big deal when there are so many other problems that the Patriarch and state could be focusing on instead is a bit stupid. They're just a bunch of rebellious twenty year olds in a band; why not just throw them in jail overnight then forget about the whole thing? Moving forward, the Russian Church seems to be doing the same thing it has always done before the persecution; trying to carefully align itself with the state. But when will they learn that this does not work? This only pushes the people further from the Church. Just look at the Church in the 19th and 20th century when nearly everyone lost hope in it because of the mindless 'support the tsar' propaganda and refusal to recognize the peasants. I think that the Church needs to stay separate from the state and try to just be there for the community or at least try to adapt to the changing times instead of always opposing anything new. I do not know much about His Holiness Kirill, but, I am praying for him and hope that God helps him. I know that right now he is facing many public attacks on his image and is being seen as a joke--especially after his $30,000 fancy watch incident.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: LizaSymonenko on April 06, 2012, 09:27:06 AM

I think that in this case, community service would suffice.  No? 

Do have something like that in Russia?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Iconodule on April 06, 2012, 11:03:27 AM

I think that in this case, community service would suffice.  No? 

Do have something like that in Russia?

Does dropping someone into a Chechen warzone count?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: LizaSymonenko on April 06, 2012, 11:54:31 AM

Ha!   ;)

That's not my definition of "Community Service".

I was thinking visiting the sick, helping with orphans, etc.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: laconicstudent on April 06, 2012, 12:26:22 PM

I think that in this case, community service would suffice.  No? 

Do have something like that in Russia?

Does dropping someone into a Chechen warzone count?

No. God disapproved of what David did to Uriah, remember?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Orthodox11 on April 06, 2012, 06:04:48 PM
Artlcle from the Independent
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/plight-of-punk-rockers-turns-russians-against-the-church-7619191.html
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: laconicstudent on April 06, 2012, 06:16:07 PM
Artlcle from the Independent
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/plight-of-punk-rockers-turns-russians-against-the-church-7619191.html

I wonder if the MP even appreciates that they have exploded this entire incident from a not all that notable incident of inappropriate public disturbance into an internationally reported news item that looks awful for them.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Asteriktos on April 06, 2012, 06:21:50 PM
Artlcle from the Independent
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/plight-of-punk-rockers-turns-russians-against-the-church-7619191.html

I wonder if the MP even appreciates that they have exploded this entire incident from a not all that notable incident of inappropriate public disturbance into an internationally reported news item that looks awful for them.

This issue was also mentioned in a story the Pittsburgh Post Gazette ran today about the watch incident. He dun goofed if he thought this would go away quietly.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Babalon on April 07, 2012, 05:57:29 AM
They definitely do deserve a prison sentence, but 7 years is way too extreme.

And what kind of sentence would you see as "fitting" for this horrendous crime?

Probably something like 1-2 months, not long at all...

Right... So people who, at worst, "disturb the peace" by being disruptive deserve to spend an average of 1 1/2 months in jail?

Am i reading this right?

Have you ever been to jail? I assure you, it's not Disneyland.

Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: laconicstudent on April 19, 2012, 06:58:46 PM
They definitely do deserve a prison sentence, but 7 years is way too extreme.

And what kind of sentence would you see as "fitting" for this horrendous crime?

Probably something like 1-2 months, not long at all...

Right... So people who, at worst, "disturb the peace" by being disruptive deserve to spend an average of 1 1/2 months in jail?

Am i reading this right?

Have you ever been to jail? I assure you, it's not Disneyland.



That, and they haven't even been charged yet. This is 1 1/2 months of pretrial detention.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Punch on April 19, 2012, 07:33:50 PM
They definitely do deserve a prison sentence, but 7 years is way too extreme.

And what kind of sentence would you see as "fitting" for this horrendous crime?

Probably something like 1-2 months, not long at all...

Right... So people who, at worst, "disturb the peace" by being disruptive deserve to spend an average of 1 1/2 months in jail?

Am i reading this right?

Have you ever been to jail? I assure you, it's not Disneyland.



That, and they haven't even been charged yet. This is 1 1/2 months of pretrial detention.

So?  It is Russia and not the United States.  Perhaps people will think a bit more before they pull their stupid stunts in a Church.  And yes, I would feel the same way if a group called Penis Riot would have done the same thing in a Mosque. There are just some places that should be free of this kind of BS.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Nicene on April 19, 2012, 07:42:42 PM
I don't know that they deserve such a harsh punishment but they certaintly didn't have the right to do this in the church.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: laconicstudent on April 19, 2012, 07:45:06 PM
They definitely do deserve a prison sentence, but 7 years is way too extreme.

And what kind of sentence would you see as "fitting" for this horrendous crime?

Probably something like 1-2 months, not long at all...

Right... So people who, at worst, "disturb the peace" by being disruptive deserve to spend an average of 1 1/2 months in jail?

Am i reading this right?

Have you ever been to jail? I assure you, it's not Disneyland.



That, and they haven't even been charged yet. This is 1 1/2 months of pretrial detention.

So?  It is Russia and not the United States.

And Greenland is closely tied to Denmark.

So what? What a random factoid for you to present.


  Perhaps people will think a bit more before they pull their stupid stunts in a Church.

Yes, um, because people will be afraid of a Church and State that doesn't tolerate political expression and responds to trivial incidents of public disturbance by dumping people in jail without a trial for months.

  And yes, I would feel the same way if a group called Penis Riot would have done the same thing in a Mosque. There are just some places that should be free of this kind of BS.

I rather doubt if something analogous happened in Iran or Saudi Arabia that Internet Christendom would shrug and say that things like this shouldn't be allowed in mosques.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Zenovia on April 19, 2012, 10:15:24 PM
I wonder what public and judicial opinion might be in the U. S. if a punk "God Riot" band played anti-abortion songs in an abortion clinic and resisted requests by management there for them to leave.

Hopefully not seven years in prison, but then again the law simply states seven years as the maximum, not the minimum, allowing judicial flexibility given the range of possible events of the type that might occur. For example, few would suppose just a slap on the wrist was sufficient if it was a punk Nazi Riot band in a Mosque or Synagogue, or a punk Polticial Riot band in a government building.

IMO the Church should say publicly, if asked for further public comment, that they are praying for the criminals, but that their fate is in the hands of the state, and that it is impossible to simply say what they did does not matter so much and that they should be let off with a grin and lol without inviting every person with a cause to turn every church, mosque, and synagogue in the country into a potential three ring circus, but that what exactly should or will be done is not a church matter.

If a band wants to play in a cathedral without permission they should build their own or buy a green screen.

Here is a youtube of the original event: http://youtu.be/GCasuaAczKY
 

I watched the video and it is offensive, but after a while I couldn't help but laugh.  How ridiculous, it seems like a high school stunt.   I'm trying to imagine someone doing that in Saint Patricks Cathedral in Manhattan,  and I guess they would be arrested for disturbing the peace.  I don't think  we'd keep them in jail though for even three months, and since jail sometimes turns people into hardened criminals it's really not the best choice.     :-\  

Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Babalon on April 26, 2012, 05:43:25 AM
They definitely do deserve a prison sentence, but 7 years is way too extreme.

And what kind of sentence would you see as "fitting" for this horrendous crime?

Probably something like 1-2 months, not long at all...

Right... So people who, at worst, "disturb the peace" by being disruptive deserve to spend an average of 1 1/2 months in jail?

Am i reading this right?

Have you ever been to jail? I assure you, it's not Disneyland.



That, and they haven't even been charged yet. This is 1 1/2 months of pretrial detention.

So?  It is Russia and not the United States.  Perhaps people will think a bit more before they pull their stupid stunts in a Church.  And yes, I would feel the same way if a group called Penis Riot would have done the same thing in a Mosque. There are just some places that should be free of this kind of BS.
Interesting. You know,  I noticed that you have a "Death to The World " avatar,  and having been personally aquainted with one of the gentlemen who published that zine down here in Costa Mesa, Im pretty taken back by your statement, in relation to your views on "the world ".
How can you rationalize the behaviour of a state who's idea of justice is locking up men and women for voicing their frustrations? I don't deny the the fact that these people may have acted inappropriately given the setting, but if we all started handing out punishments for "crimes " of this calibre, to everyone equally, we'd have a lot more dead presidents and religious "leaders " on our hands.
All in all,  they were being loud and dressed rather humorously.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Gebre Menfes Kidus on April 26, 2012, 06:37:15 AM
I agree with Liza on this one. Keep politics out  of the Church. Protest all you want, anywhere you want. But the House of God is Holy, and the Liturgy transcends politics. Perhaps 7 years imprisonment is too harsh. Maybe they should be excommunicated for 7 years  - less or longer -until their Priest has deemed them truly repentant. But then again, my sins are much worse. But I think this display was quite unOrthodox.


Selam
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: mike on April 26, 2012, 07:13:09 AM
I agree with Liza on this one. Keep politics out  of the Church.

Say that to Patriarch Cyrill.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Gebre Menfes Kidus on April 26, 2012, 07:23:13 AM
I agree with Liza on this one. Keep politics out  of the Church.

Say that to Patriarch Cyrill.


I will be glad to, after kissing his hand.


Selam
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Νεκτάριος on April 26, 2012, 07:52:33 AM
I agree with Liza on this one. Keep politics out  of the Church.

Say that to Patriarch Cyrill.


I will be glad to, after kissing his hand.


Selam

The people "protecting" the churches of Moscow would never let you or your family inside a church without much scrutiny. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Gebre Menfes Kidus on April 26, 2012, 08:45:59 AM
I agree with Liza on this one. Keep politics out  of the Church.

Say that to Patriarch Cyrill.


I will be glad to, after kissing his hand.


Selam

The people "protecting" the churches of Moscow would never let you or your family inside a church without much scrutiny. 

OK. Not planning to go to Moscow anytime soon. Just offering my opinion.


Selam
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Ansgar on April 26, 2012, 09:36:17 AM
I agree with Liza on this one. Keep politics out  of the Church.

Say that to Patriarch Cyrill.


I will be glad to, after kissing his hand.


Selam

The people "protecting" the churches of Moscow would never let you or your family inside a church without much scrutiny. 

Forgive my ignorance but why not?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: mike on April 26, 2012, 09:59:48 AM
I agree with Liza on this one. Keep politics out  of the Church.

Say that to Patriarch Cyrill.


I will be glad to, after kissing his hand.


Selam

The people "protecting" the churches of Moscow would never let you or your family inside a church without much scrutiny.  

Forgive my ignorance but why not?

His wife and children are black and many Russians beat Blacks (including people from Caucasus and Central Asians).
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Ansgar on April 26, 2012, 10:06:37 AM
I agree with Liza on this one. Keep politics out  of the Church.

Say that to Patriarch Cyrill.


I will be glad to, after kissing his hand.


Selam

The people "protecting" the churches of Moscow would never let you or your family inside a church without much scrutiny.  

Forgive my ignorance but why not?

His wife and children are black and many Russians beat Blacks (including people from Caucasus and Central Asians).

Sad, but isn't some russians caucasian themselves?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: mike on April 26, 2012, 10:09:56 AM
I agree with Liza on this one. Keep politics out  of the Church.

Say that to Patriarch Cyrill.


I will be glad to, after kissing his hand.


Selam

The people "protecting" the churches of Moscow would never let you or your family inside a church without much scrutiny. 

Forgive my ignorance but why not?

His wife and children are black and many Russians beat Blacks (including people from Caucasus and Central Asians).

Sad, but isn't some russians caucasian themselves?

That isn't supposed to be logical.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: vamrat on April 26, 2012, 10:14:28 AM
I agree with Liza on this one. Keep politics out  of the Church.

Say that to Patriarch Cyrill.


I will be glad to, after kissing his hand.


Selam

The people "protecting" the churches of Moscow would never let you or your family inside a church without much scrutiny. 

OK. Not planning to go to Moscow anytime soon. Just offering my opinion.


Selam

Yeah, don't bother with Moscow.  I was looking at maybe going to Russia back a few years ago for a vacation.  St. Petersburg looks to be much more beautiful and even cheaper as well!
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: augustin717 on April 26, 2012, 10:26:17 AM
I agree with Liza on this one. Keep politics out  of the Church.

Say that to Patriarch Cyrill.


I will be glad to, after kissing his hand.


Selam

The people "protecting" the churches of Moscow would never let you or your family inside a church without much scrutiny.  
I'm reminded of anecdotes heard from actually ultra-pious Romanian pilgrims to Russian monasteries. Many  were only let in after it was ascertained that they weren't on board with the ecumenist agenda of the Romanian patriarchate and there were places were they were flatly denied entry. That, I heard, also happened in some places in Greece, but they said it was more common in Russia. But, then again, ironically these tended to be the people that took all of this bs meekly, actually blaming themselves for the "ecumenist sins" of the patriarch etc. I was thinking, they served you right, you spineless %^^%%
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: NicholasMyra on April 26, 2012, 12:51:03 PM
So?  It is Russia
Being a barbarian or ex-barbarian nation wasn't an acceptable excuse in the eyes of St. Paul. Shouldn't be for us.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Punch on April 26, 2012, 02:48:25 PM
Sometimes you just have to make an example out of someone.  It may not be fair, but it is often effective.

They definitely do deserve a prison sentence, but 7 years is way too extreme.

And what kind of sentence would you see as "fitting" for this horrendous crime?

Probably something like 1-2 months, not long at all...

Right... So people who, at worst, "disturb the peace" by being disruptive deserve to spend an average of 1 1/2 months in jail?

Am i reading this right?

Have you ever been to jail? I assure you, it's not Disneyland.



That, and they haven't even been charged yet. This is 1 1/2 months of pretrial detention.

So?  It is Russia and not the United States.  Perhaps people will think a bit more before they pull their stupid stunts in a Church.  And yes, I would feel the same way if a group called Penis Riot would have done the same thing in a Mosque. There are just some places that should be free of this kind of BS.
Interesting. You know,  I noticed that you have a "Death to The World " avatar,  and having been personally aquainted with one of the gentlemen who published that zine down here in Costa Mesa, Im pretty taken back by your statement, in relation to your views on "the world ".
How can you rationalize the behaviour of a state who's idea of justice is locking up men and women for voicing their frustrations? I don't deny the the fact that these people may have acted inappropriately given the setting, but if we all started handing out punishments for "crimes " of this calibre, to everyone equally, we'd have a lot more dead presidents and religious "leaders " on our hands.
All in all,  they were being loud and dressed rather humorously.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: biro on April 26, 2012, 02:50:25 PM
I think they could have saved themselves some trouble if they had just done the whole thing outside the cathedral. Just saying.  :-\

That aside, I hope they get out soon. I think they've learned their lesson.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Ansgar on April 26, 2012, 03:01:17 PM
Sometimes you just have to make an example out of someone.  It may not be fair, but it is often effective.

They definitely do deserve a prison sentence, but 7 years is way too extreme.

And what kind of sentence would you see as "fitting" for this horrendous crime?

Probably something like 1-2 months, not long at all...

Right... So people who, at worst, "disturb the peace" by being disruptive deserve to spend an average of 1 1/2 months in jail?

Am i reading this right?

Have you ever been to jail? I assure you, it's not Disneyland.



That, and they haven't even been charged yet. This is 1 1/2 months of pretrial detention.

So?  It is Russia and not the United States.  Perhaps people will think a bit more before they pull their stupid stunts in a Church.  And yes, I would feel the same way if a group called Penis Riot would have done the same thing in a Mosque. There are just some places that should be free of this kind of BS.
Interesting. You know,  I noticed that you have a "Death to The World " avatar,  and having been personally aquainted with one of the gentlemen who published that zine down here in Costa Mesa, Im pretty taken back by your statement, in relation to your views on "the world ".
How can you rationalize the behaviour of a state who's idea of justice is locking up men and women for voicing their frustrations? I don't deny the the fact that these people may have acted inappropriately given the setting, but if we all started handing out punishments for "crimes " of this calibre, to everyone equally, we'd have a lot more dead presidents and religious "leaders " on our hands.
All in all,  they were being loud and dressed rather humorously.

So what you are saying is that the Church should prevent blasphemy by making people afraid. I'm sorry but that's a very dangerous mindset.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: laconicstudent on April 26, 2012, 05:03:45 PM
Sometimes you just have to make an example out of someone.  It may not be fair, but it is often effective.

A view common in totalitarian regimes. But I don't think Russia or the Russian Church would find a rule by fear strategy very effective.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Babalon on April 27, 2012, 01:01:19 AM
Sometimes you just have to make an example out of someone.  It may not be fair, but it is often effective.

They definitely do deserve a prison sentence, but 7 years is way too extreme.

And what kind of sentence would you see as "fitting" for this horrendous crime?

Probably something like 1-2 months, not long at all...

Right... So people who, at worst, "disturb the peace" by being disruptive deserve to spend an average of 1 1/2 months in jail?

Am i reading this right?

Have you ever been to jail? I assure you, it's not Disneyland.



That, and they haven't even been charged yet. This is 1 1/2 months of pretrial detention.

So?  It is Russia and not the United States.  Perhaps people will think a bit more before they pull their stupid stunts in a Church.  And yes, I would feel the same way if a group called Penis Riot would have done the same thing in a Mosque. There are just some places that should be free of this kind of BS.
Interesting. You know,  I noticed that you have a "Death to The World " avatar,  and having been personally aquainted with one of the gentlemen who published that zine down here in Costa Mesa, Im pretty taken back by your statement, in relation to your views on "the world ".
How can you rationalize the behaviour of a state who's idea of justice is locking up men and women for voicing their frustrations? I don't deny the the fact that these people may have acted inappropriately given the setting, but if we all started handing out punishments for "crimes " of this calibre, to everyone equally, we'd have a lot more dead presidents and religious "leaders " on our hands.
All in all,  they were being loud and dressed rather humorously.

So what you are saying is that the Church should prevent blasphemy by making people afraid. I'm sorry but that's a very dangerous mindset.

I don't know when i said that and quite frankly, the idea of "preventing blasphemy" is a moronic concept to begin with. Not to mention impossible..

What i am saying is that while they were perhaps disrespectful, their offense was not worthy of a jail sentence. Simple as that.

A fine should be paid, and if we really wanted to get extreme- then maybe they should be banned from that cathedral..

I don't care what country they're in, my principle point is that their punishment was an overreaction.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Ansgar on April 27, 2012, 01:44:34 AM
Sometimes you just have to make an example out of someone.  It may not be fair, but it is often effective.

They definitely do deserve a prison sentence, but 7 years is way too extreme.

And what kind of sentence would you see as "fitting" for this horrendous crime?

Probably something like 1-2 months, not long at all...

Right... So people who, at worst, "disturb the peace" by being disruptive deserve to spend an average of 1 1/2 months in jail?

Am i reading this right?

Have you ever been to jail? I assure you, it's not Disneyland.



That, and they haven't even been charged yet. This is 1 1/2 months of pretrial detention.

So?  It is Russia and not the United States.  Perhaps people will think a bit more before they pull their stupid stunts in a Church.  And yes, I would feel the same way if a group called Penis Riot would have done the same thing in a Mosque. There are just some places that should be free of this kind of BS.
Interesting. You know,  I noticed that you have a "Death to The World " avatar,  and having been personally aquainted with one of the gentlemen who published that zine down here in Costa Mesa, Im pretty taken back by your statement, in relation to your views on "the world ".
How can you rationalize the behaviour of a state who's idea of justice is locking up men and women for voicing their frustrations? I don't deny the the fact that these people may have acted inappropriately given the setting, but if we all started handing out punishments for "crimes " of this calibre, to everyone equally, we'd have a lot more dead presidents and religious "leaders " on our hands.
All in all,  they were being loud and dressed rather humorously.

So what you are saying is that the Church should prevent blasphemy by making people afraid. I'm sorry but that's a very dangerous mindset.

I don't know when i said that and quite frankly, the idea of "preventing blasphemy" is a moronic concept to begin with. Not to mention impossible..

What i am saying is that while they were perhaps disrespectful, their offense was not worthy of a jail sentence. Simple as that.

A fine should be paid, and if we really wanted to get extreme- then maybe they should be banned from that cathedral..

I don't care what country they're in, my principle point is that their punishment was an overreaction.

Look at the commentary above mine. My commentary was a response to Punch.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Babalon on April 27, 2012, 10:33:52 AM
Ah, I see now. :D
It was his strange sentence-placement that threw me off.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: ilyazhito on April 27, 2012, 11:55:19 AM

I just watched the video.

I'd like to see them try this in a mosque.

I don't care if they are "religous" or not....this "dance" was a slap in the face of Orthodoxy!

They could have done this outside on the sidewalk and all would have been well.  Demonstrate all you want.  Freedom of speech!

....but, not right in front of the Altar, mimicking and mocking Orthodoxy.

Shameful!

I don't support the MP, or his greediness, but, this was an insult to all of Orthodoxy, not just the MP.


Shameful, yes.

Punishable by seven years in prison, though?
They would probably be assessed an epitimia in the old days. The penalty should be purely ecclesiastical. However, a Moslem man in Italy who broke into a church and was dancing in the altar was fined.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: filipinopilgrim on April 27, 2012, 12:18:51 PM
For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.

Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Νεκτάριος on April 27, 2012, 12:40:59 PM
For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.

Perhaps you should reread some of the links and information presented in this thread.  Among people in Russian and other places occupied by the MP, there is a strong belief among many within the Church that jailing the political opponents of the patriarchate is wrong.  Separating a mother from her child because of a political offense is inhumane.  I haven't seen anybody state that they support doing what Pussy Riot did, rather let's keep it in perspective.  Of course nothing Pussy Riot did comes even close to the mockery of New Testament Christianity that the MP daily conducts. Go figure. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: laconicstudent on April 27, 2012, 12:47:46 PM
For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.



I guess some of us just aren't obsessed with vengeance as others. My sympathies that the Roman Catholic Church in the Philippines would rather get back at some crazy then actually, I dunno, show some forgiveness and compassion?

But then again, when that assassin wounded Pope John Paul II, he himself was screaming for the guy's execution in accordance with the maximum penalty of the law- oh wait,

Pope John Paul II Forgives His Would-Be Assassin
 (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,952295,00.html)

Too bad that Archdiocese can't take the recently beatified Pope's example.

Really, if you think the best way to "defend the honor of our sanctuaries" is to brutally punish anyone who dares offend you, that is pathetically insecure.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Fotina02 on April 27, 2012, 12:57:40 PM
Of course nothing Pussy Riot did comes even close to the mockery of New Testament Christianity that the MP daily conducts. Go figure. 

What daily mockery? Can it be read somewhere online?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Νεκτάριος on April 27, 2012, 01:08:03 PM
Of course nothing Pussy Riot did comes even close to the mockery of New Testament Christianity that the MP daily conducts. Go figure. 

What daily mockery? Can it be read somewhere online?

Strutting around with his expensive watch, fancy cars, etc. Taking people to court for thousands of dollars and then saying in interviews that forgiveness is impossible.  Easter at an MP parish is also entertaining.  A bunch of drunks going to get their moonshine blessed.  But they slip the priest some money, so it is OK. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: filipinopilgrim on April 27, 2012, 01:26:25 PM
For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.



I guess some of us just aren't obsessed with vengeance as others. My sympathies that the Roman Catholic Church in the Philippines would rather get back at some crazy then actually, I dunno, show some forgiveness and compassion?

But then again, when that assassin wounded Pope John Paul II, he himself was screaming for the guy's execution in accordance with the maximum penalty of the law- oh wait,

Pope John Paul II Forgives His Would-Be Assassin
 (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,952295,00.html)

Too bad that Archdiocese can't take the recently beatified Pope's example.

Really, if you think the best way to "defend the honor of our sanctuaries" is to brutally punish anyone who dares offend you, that is pathetically insecure.

Pope John Paul II forgave his would-be assassin. He also made it clear that Ali Agca would remain in jail in accordance with Italian law.

Agca was in prison for 19 years, from 1981 to 2000, in Italy, in punishment for the attempted assassination. He could have stayed in jail longer had he not received a pardon fron the President of Italy. After that he was deported to Turkey to spend another 10 years in jail for a different crime.

Mercy is important, but so is justice.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: GiC on April 27, 2012, 01:27:55 PM
For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.

Perhaps you should reread some of the links and information presented in this thread.  Among people in Russian and other places occupied by the MP, there is a strong belief among many within the Church that jailing the political opponents of the patriarchate is wrong.  Separating a mother from her child because of a political offense is inhumane.  I haven't seen anybody state that they support doing what Pussy Riot did, rather let's keep it in perspective.  Of course nothing Pussy Riot did comes even close to the mockery of New Testament Christianity that the MP daily conducts. Go figure. 

Well, let me be the first, I support what they did, it was a victimless crime of conscience. Those who engage in nonviolent protest according to the dictates of their conscience can never be condemned, regardless of how vile or evil one believes their opinions and intentions to be. This is a natural consequence of the freedom of conscience and the free will of man. Even your God gives way before the conscience of man and yields to his free will. And yet, the Bishops seek to destroy this freedom of conscience, which is so sacred that not even an omnipotent God dares interfere.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: filipinopilgrim on April 27, 2012, 01:29:32 PM
Of course nothing Pussy Riot did comes even close to the mockery of New Testament Christianity that the MP daily conducts. Go figure. 

What daily mockery? Can it be read somewhere online?

Strutting around with his expensive watch, fancy cars, etc. Taking people to court for thousands of dollars and then saying in interviews that forgiveness is impossible.  Easter at an MP parish is also entertaining.  A bunch of drunks going to get their moonshine blessed.  But they slip the priest some money, so it is OK. 

And so, because we don't like the Patriarch or a bishop, then we should feel free to desecrate the churches under them?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: filipinopilgrim on April 27, 2012, 01:31:10 PM
For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.

Perhaps you should reread some of the links and information presented in this thread.  Among people in Russian and other places occupied by the MP, there is a strong belief among many within the Church that jailing the political opponents of the patriarchate is wrong.  Separating a mother from her child because of a political offense is inhumane.  I haven't seen anybody state that they support doing what Pussy Riot did, rather let's keep it in perspective.  Of course nothing Pussy Riot did comes even close to the mockery of New Testament Christianity that the MP daily conducts. Go figure. 

Well, let me be the first, I support what they did, it was a victimless crime of conscience. Those who engage in nonviolent protest according to the dictates of their conscience can never be condemned, regardless of how vile or evil one believes their opinions and intentions to be. This is a natural consequence of the freedom of conscience and the free will of man. Even your God gives way before the conscience of man and yields to his free will. And yet, the Bishops seek to destroy this freedom of conscience, which is so sacred that not even an omnipotent God dares interfere.

Yes, yes, yes, we understand, Mr. Resident Atheist. Religion is a vile thing, therefore we should feel free to axe icons and defile churches in the name of 'conscience'. After all, no one is "victimized" by such acts (a view that, of itself, presupposes that religious icons and buildings are of no value at all).

I wonder if you'd say the same thing about someone who cuts down a tree.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Νεκτάριος on April 27, 2012, 01:34:51 PM
Of course nothing Pussy Riot did comes even close to the mockery of New Testament Christianity that the MP daily conducts. Go figure. 

What daily mockery? Can it be read somewhere online?

Strutting around with his expensive watch, fancy cars, etc. Taking people to court for thousands of dollars and then saying in interviews that forgiveness is impossible.  Easter at an MP parish is also entertaining.  A bunch of drunks going to get their moonshine blessed.  But they slip the priest some money, so it is OK. 

And so, because we don't like the Patriarch or a bishop, then we should feel free to desecrate the churches under them?

Where did I say that?  I said that I don't agree with the manner in which Pussy Riot protested, but that they have done for less to desecrate the Church than the MP does on a daily basis. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Ansgar on April 27, 2012, 01:41:18 PM
For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.

Perhaps you should reread some of the links and information presented in this thread.  Among people in Russian and other places occupied by the MP, there is a strong belief among many within the Church that jailing the political opponents of the patriarchate is wrong.  Separating a mother from her child because of a political offense is inhumane.  I haven't seen anybody state that they support doing what Pussy Riot did, rather let's keep it in perspective.  Of course nothing Pussy Riot did comes even close to the mockery of New Testament Christianity that the MP daily conducts. Go figure. 

Well, let me be the first, I support what they did, it was a victimless crime of conscience. Those who engage in nonviolent protest according to the dictates of their conscience can never be condemned, regardless of how vile or evil one believes their opinions and intentions to be. This is a natural consequence of the freedom of conscience and the free will of man. Even your God gives way before the conscience of man and yields to his free will. And yet, the Bishops seek to destroy this freedom of conscience, which is so sacred that not even an omnipotent God dares interfere.

Maybe, but respect is also important. I don't think that they should have been punished like this, but they did stand in front of the altar. Since they appear to be orthodox themselves they were probably aware that this is not acceptable. The way I see it, it is not so much what they did but rather how they did it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: ialmisry on April 27, 2012, 01:42:45 PM
Of course nothing Pussy Riot did comes even close to the mockery of New Testament Christianity that the MP daily conducts. Go figure. 

What daily mockery? Can it be read somewhere online?

Strutting around with his expensive watch, fancy cars, etc. Taking people to court for thousands of dollars and then saying in interviews that forgiveness is impossible.  Easter at an MP parish is also entertaining.  A bunch of drunks going to get their moonshine blessed.  But they slip the priest some money, so it is OK. 

And so, because we don't like the Patriarch or a bishop, then we should feel free to desecrate the churches under them?

Where did I say that?  I said that I don't agree with the manner in which Pussy Riot protested, but that they have done for less to desecrate the Church than the MP does on a daily basis
Oh?  And can you explain that?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: laconicstudent on April 27, 2012, 02:35:03 PM
For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.



I guess some of us just aren't obsessed with vengeance as others. My sympathies that the Roman Catholic Church in the Philippines would rather get back at some crazy then actually, I dunno, show some forgiveness and compassion?

But then again, when that assassin wounded Pope John Paul II, he himself was screaming for the guy's execution in accordance with the maximum penalty of the law- oh wait,

Pope John Paul II Forgives His Would-Be Assassin
 (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,952295,00.html)

Too bad that Archdiocese can't take the recently beatified Pope's example.

Really, if you think the best way to "defend the honor of our sanctuaries" is to brutally punish anyone who dares offend you, that is pathetically insecure.

Pope John Paul II forgave his would-be assassin. He also made it clear that Ali Agca would remain in jail in accordance with Italian law.

Agca was in prison for 19 years, from 1981 to 2000, in Italy, in punishment for the attempted assassination. He could have stayed in jail longer had he not received a pardon fron the President of Italy. After that he was deported to Turkey to spend another 10 years in jail for a different crime.

Mercy is important, but so is justice.

1. He was originally sentenced to life.
2. Attacking the Pope was once a capital offense in Italy.
3. He was pardoned at the Pope's specific request, so no, Pope John Paul II did not make it clear that Agca would "remain in jail in accordance with Italian law", because according to Italian law Agca should have been dumped in prison for the rest of his life. Try again.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: laconicstudent on April 27, 2012, 02:37:09 PM
For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.

Perhaps you should reread some of the links and information presented in this thread.  Among people in Russian and other places occupied by the MP, there is a strong belief among many within the Church that jailing the political opponents of the patriarchate is wrong.  Separating a mother from her child because of a political offense is inhumane.  I haven't seen anybody state that they support doing what Pussy Riot did, rather let's keep it in perspective.  Of course nothing Pussy Riot did comes even close to the mockery of New Testament Christianity that the MP daily conducts. Go figure. 

Well, let me be the first, I support what they did, it was a victimless crime of conscience. Those who engage in nonviolent protest according to the dictates of their conscience can never be condemned, regardless of how vile or evil one believes their opinions and intentions to be. This is a natural consequence of the freedom of conscience and the free will of man. Even your God gives way before the conscience of man and yields to his free will. And yet, the Bishops seek to destroy this freedom of conscience, which is so sacred that not even an omnipotent God dares interfere.

Yes, yes, yes, we understand, Mr. Resident Atheist. Religion is a vile thing, therefore we should feel free to axe icons and defile churches in the name of 'conscience'. After all, no one is "victimized" by such acts (a view that, of itself, presupposes that religious icons and buildings are of no value at all).

I wonder if you'd say the same thing about someone who cuts down a tree.

If your churches are seriously defiled by something so trivial as an inappropriate outburst by a cranky haranguer, you guys are awfully precious. Equating this with destroying icons and churches and cutting down trees is so absurd as to be laughable.  :D
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: laconicstudent on April 27, 2012, 02:39:50 PM
Of course nothing Pussy Riot did comes even close to the mockery of New Testament Christianity that the MP daily conducts. Go figure. 

What daily mockery? Can it be read somewhere online?

Strutting around with his expensive watch, fancy cars, etc. Taking people to court for thousands of dollars and then saying in interviews that forgiveness is impossible.  Easter at an MP parish is also entertaining.  A bunch of drunks going to get their moonshine blessed.  But they slip the priest some money, so it is OK. 

And so, because we don't like the Patriarch or a bishop, then we should feel free to desecrate the churches under them?

This is boring. You need to review what your own church body has said (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04748c.htm) constitutes desecration.

Quote
The word desecration is commonly used in regard to churches, altars, chalices, etc.

(1) A church loses its consecration or blessing when the building is destroyed either wholly or in greater part, or when an addition is made to it of larger extent than the original edifice. It does not become desecrated:

(a) if a portion of the walls and roof falls in, provided the main portion stands, or
(b) if all the interior plastering becomes detached, or
(c) if all the crosses disappear, or
(d) if all the walls are gradually renewed, provided on each occasion the old part is greater than the new, or
(e) if converted for a while to profane uses, provided it is not polluted (cf. Many, De Locis Sacris).
(2) An altar (fixed) loses its consecration:

(a) by a notable fracture of table or its support; as, for instance, if the table were broken into two large pieces, or if an anointed corner were broken off, or if the support were seriously impaired, or if one of the columns were displaced;
(b) by removal of the table from its support, so as to disjoint them;
(c) by displacing the relics, or cover of the sepulchre (cf. Schulte, Consecranda, p. 222).
(3) An altar-stone loses its consecration:

(a) by removal of the relics;
(b) by fracture or removal of the cover of the sepulchre;
(c) by a notable fracture of the stone;
(d) by breakage of the anointed corner of stone.
(4) As to the chalice and paten, see ALTAR, under subtitle Loss of Consecration.


Look, I don't see "1(f): If a cranky boor starts ranting at the priests during Mass."
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: filipinopilgrim on April 27, 2012, 03:28:26 PM
For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.



I guess some of us just aren't obsessed with vengeance as others. My sympathies that the Roman Catholic Church in the Philippines would rather get back at some crazy then actually, I dunno, show some forgiveness and compassion?

But then again, when that assassin wounded Pope John Paul II, he himself was screaming for the guy's execution in accordance with the maximum penalty of the law- oh wait,

Pope John Paul II Forgives His Would-Be Assassin
 (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,952295,00.html)

Too bad that Archdiocese can't take the recently beatified Pope's example.

Really, if you think the best way to "defend the honor of our sanctuaries" is to brutally punish anyone who dares offend you, that is pathetically insecure.

Pope John Paul II forgave his would-be assassin. He also made it clear that Ali Agca would remain in jail in accordance with Italian law.

Agca was in prison for 19 years, from 1981 to 2000, in Italy, in punishment for the attempted assassination. He could have stayed in jail longer had he not received a pardon fron the President of Italy. After that he was deported to Turkey to spend another 10 years in jail for a different crime.

Mercy is important, but so is justice.

1. He was originally sentenced to life.
2. Attacking the Pope was once a capital offense in Italy.
3. He was pardoned at the Pope's specific request, so no, Pope John Paul II did not make it clear that Agca would "remain in jail in accordance with Italian law", because according to Italian law Agca should have been dumped in prison for the rest of his life. Try again.

He was pardoned AFTER spending nearly 2 decades in jail. Before that, the Vatican position, widely reported in news reports from the time, is that it deferred to Italian justice.

Try again? How about YOU try again?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: GiC on April 27, 2012, 03:28:51 PM
For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.

Perhaps you should reread some of the links and information presented in this thread.  Among people in Russian and other places occupied by the MP, there is a strong belief among many within the Church that jailing the political opponents of the patriarchate is wrong.  Separating a mother from her child because of a political offense is inhumane.  I haven't seen anybody state that they support doing what Pussy Riot did, rather let's keep it in perspective.  Of course nothing Pussy Riot did comes even close to the mockery of New Testament Christianity that the MP daily conducts. Go figure. 

Well, let me be the first, I support what they did, it was a victimless crime of conscience. Those who engage in nonviolent protest according to the dictates of their conscience can never be condemned, regardless of how vile or evil one believes their opinions and intentions to be. This is a natural consequence of the freedom of conscience and the free will of man. Even your God gives way before the conscience of man and yields to his free will. And yet, the Bishops seek to destroy this freedom of conscience, which is so sacred that not even an omnipotent God dares interfere.

Yes, yes, yes, we understand, Mr. Resident Atheist. Religion is a vile thing, therefore we should feel free to axe icons and defile churches in the name of 'conscience'. After all, no one is "victimized" by such acts (a view that, of itself, presupposes that religious icons and buildings are of no value at all).

I wonder if you'd say the same thing about someone who cuts down a tree.

Taking an ax to icons (that you don't own, of course) would be quite different, that would be the destruction of someone else's property, hardly a victimless crime (though, even then, unless the icon was a thousand years old, 7 years in prison would be a rather draconian sentence, especially considering how easy Lenin and Stalin got off). But you're presenting a bit of a non-sequitur here, all the accused did was go into the church and say a prayerful song. A prayerful song that was offensive to the current regime and a bit unconventional, but just a prayer none the less.

And I don't believe I said that religion was a vile thing; quite the contrary, I believe I criticized the bishops for their actions not being in line with the religion to which they give lip service, that's a comment about the value of honesty and consistency not about the value of religion. Or have things changed while I've been gone? Does God now serve the bishops instead of the bishops serving God?

Oh, why should I care if someone cuts down a tree? Provided they own the property the tree is on or have purchased/legally acquired the rights too said tree, shouldn't they have every right to do with it as they please?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: filipinopilgrim on April 27, 2012, 03:31:32 PM

This is boring. You need to review what your own church body has said (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04748c.htm) constitutes desecration.

Quote
The word desecration is commonly used in regard to churches, altars, chalices, etc.

(1) A church loses its consecration or blessing when the building is destroyed either wholly or in greater part, or when an addition is made to it of larger extent than the original edifice. It does not become desecrated:

(a) if a portion of the walls and roof falls in, provided the main portion stands, or
(b) if all the interior plastering becomes detached, or
(c) if all the crosses disappear, or
(d) if all the walls are gradually renewed, provided on each occasion the old part is greater than the new, or
(e) if converted for a while to profane uses, provided it is not polluted (cf. Many, De Locis Sacris).
(2) An altar (fixed) loses its consecration:

(a) by a notable fracture of table or its support; as, for instance, if the table were broken into two large pieces, or if an anointed corner were broken off, or if the support were seriously impaired, or if one of the columns were displaced;
(b) by removal of the table from its support, so as to disjoint them;
(c) by displacing the relics, or cover of the sepulchre (cf. Schulte, Consecranda, p. 222).
(3) An altar-stone loses its consecration:

(a) by removal of the relics;
(b) by fracture or removal of the cover of the sepulchre;
(c) by a notable fracture of the stone;
(d) by breakage of the anointed corner of stone.
(4) As to the chalice and paten, see ALTAR, under subtitle Loss of Consecration.


Look, I don't see "1(f): If a cranky boor starts ranting at the priests during Mass."


I'm not using 'desecration' in the strict, canonical meaning of the term, but with the broader meaning of showing intentional disrespect for churches and icons.

If your conscience is comfortable with defending acts of disrespect inside churches consecrated to the worship of the Triune God, I leave that to you. It certainly makes me wonder if you even have any sense of the sacred.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: biro on April 27, 2012, 03:34:12 PM
Does anyone know what the justice system is like in Russia? Is it possible these people can appeal their convictions? Can they get a new lawyer?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: filipinopilgrim on April 27, 2012, 03:38:38 PM
Quote
Taking an ax to icons (that you don't own, of course) would be quite different, that would be the destruction of someone else's property, hardly a victimless crime (though, even then, unless the icon was a thousand years old, 7 years in prison would be a rather draconian sentence, especially considering how easy Lenin and Stalin got off).

Naturally they got off, for the simple reason that they were the ones who had earthly power all throughout their reigns of terror against the Church.

Quote
But you're presenting a bit of a non-sequitur here, all the accused did was go into the church and say a prayerful song. A prayerful song that was offensive to the current regime and a bit unconventional, but just a prayer none the less.

A "prayerful" song? How? It may have been 'prayerful' from the viewpoint of the singers, but the way they acted was blasphemy and sacrilege from the point of view of those whose temple they misused for their protest. The lyrics are beside the point. The moment we say that it should be "OK" for people to do anything they find 'prayerful' in any house of worship they want to enter ... I can only imagine the ensuing chaos.

I think the jailing of the Pussy Riot girls would not even have been noticed and sensationalized, had they not been 1) against Putin (and therefore "good" from the Western media's point of view) and 2) against Russian Orthodoxy (and therefore "good" from the point of view of most in the Anglophone Internet Orthodox world).

I think that the best course of action would be:

1) Sentence the Pussy Riot girls to jail
2) After 1 or 2 years in prison, appeal to the Russian President and the Patriarch for clemency
3) Pardon them

In that way, the demands of mercy and justice would be both met. However, what many in this thread seem to want is for blasphemous acts inside churches to be protected by law. This, no Christian can accept.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: GiC on April 27, 2012, 03:45:21 PM
For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.

Perhaps you should reread some of the links and information presented in this thread.  Among people in Russian and other places occupied by the MP, there is a strong belief among many within the Church that jailing the political opponents of the patriarchate is wrong.  Separating a mother from her child because of a political offense is inhumane.  I haven't seen anybody state that they support doing what Pussy Riot did, rather let's keep it in perspective.  Of course nothing Pussy Riot did comes even close to the mockery of New Testament Christianity that the MP daily conducts. Go figure. 

Well, let me be the first, I support what they did, it was a victimless crime of conscience. Those who engage in nonviolent protest according to the dictates of their conscience can never be condemned, regardless of how vile or evil one believes their opinions and intentions to be. This is a natural consequence of the freedom of conscience and the free will of man. Even your God gives way before the conscience of man and yields to his free will. And yet, the Bishops seek to destroy this freedom of conscience, which is so sacred that not even an omnipotent God dares interfere.

Maybe, but respect is also important. I don't think that they should have been punished like this, but they did stand in front of the altar. Since they appear to be orthodox themselves they were probably aware that this is not acceptable. The way I see it, it is not so much what they did but rather how they did it.

Respect is only important when it is honestly earned, no person is entitled to respect by virtue of their office, no matter how high. Compulsory respect is not respect, it's just fear, and there's no lasting value in that.

Yes, they could have been more politic, but if they had been they wouldn't have had the impact they did. Acts of civil disobedience are supposed to make you uncomfortable, that's the whole point. But so long as they do not destroy your property or cause bodily harm to your person, their actions are political, not criminal, in nature and any legal acts against them must inherently be political and not judicial in nature.

Of course, had the MP been more politic, this would have likely went away as well, but their PR team seems to have inherited their skills in diplomacy from Genghis Khan. They may succeed in persecuting these innocent people, but in doing so they will ensure that millions of Russians will never again step foot inside a Russian Orthodox Church; it's been handled so poorly that it went from a slam-dunk PR campaign to a lose-lose situation for the MP and that's just pathetic.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: laconicstudent on April 27, 2012, 04:06:24 PM
For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.



I guess some of us just aren't obsessed with vengeance as others. My sympathies that the Roman Catholic Church in the Philippines would rather get back at some crazy then actually, I dunno, show some forgiveness and compassion?

But then again, when that assassin wounded Pope John Paul II, he himself was screaming for the guy's execution in accordance with the maximum penalty of the law- oh wait,

Pope John Paul II Forgives His Would-Be Assassin
 (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,952295,00.html)

Too bad that Archdiocese can't take the recently beatified Pope's example.

Really, if you think the best way to "defend the honor of our sanctuaries" is to brutally punish anyone who dares offend you, that is pathetically insecure.

Pope John Paul II forgave his would-be assassin. He also made it clear that Ali Agca would remain in jail in accordance with Italian law.

Agca was in prison for 19 years, from 1981 to 2000, in Italy, in punishment for the attempted assassination. He could have stayed in jail longer had he not received a pardon fron the President of Italy. After that he was deported to Turkey to spend another 10 years in jail for a different crime.

Mercy is important, but so is justice.

1. He was originally sentenced to life.
2. Attacking the Pope was once a capital offense in Italy.
3. He was pardoned at the Pope's specific request, so no, Pope John Paul II did not make it clear that Agca would "remain in jail in accordance with Italian law", because according to Italian law Agca should have been dumped in prison for the rest of his life. Try again.

He was pardoned AFTER spending nearly 2 decades in jail. Before that, the Vatican position, widely reported in news reports from the time, is that it deferred to Italian justice.

Try again? How about YOU try again?

And yet, there was forgiveness and a pardon. The Pope wasn't chomping at the bit at the prospect of judicial revenge like some people here seem to think would be a good thing for the Church to do.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: GiC on April 27, 2012, 04:08:31 PM
Quote
Taking an ax to icons (that you don't own, of course) would be quite different, that would be the destruction of someone else's property, hardly a victimless crime (though, even then, unless the icon was a thousand years old, 7 years in prison would be a rather draconian sentence, especially considering how easy Lenin and Stalin got off).

Naturally they got off, for the simple reason that they were the ones who had earthly power all throughout their reigns of terror against the Church.

Quote
But you're presenting a bit of a non-sequitur here, all the accused did was go into the church and say a prayerful song. A prayerful song that was offensive to the current regime and a bit unconventional, but just a prayer none the less.

A "prayerful" song? How? It may have been 'prayerful' from the viewpoint of the singers, but the way they acted was blasphemy and sacrilege from the point of view of those whose temple they misused for their protest. The lyrics are beside the point. The moment we say that it should be "OK" for people to do anything they find 'prayerful' in any house of worship they want to enter ... I can only imagine the ensuing chaos.

I think the jailing of the Pussy Riot girls would not even have been noticed and sensationalized, had they not been 1) against Putin (and therefore "good" from the Western media's point of view) and 2) against Russian Orthodoxy (and therefore "good" from the point of view of most in the Anglophone Internet Orthodox world).

I think that the best course of action would be:

1) Sentence the Pussy Riot girls to jail
2) After 1 or 2 years in prison, appeal to the Russian President and the Patriarch for clemency
3) Pardon them

In that way, the demands of mercy and justice would be both met. However, what many in this thread seem to want is for blasphemous acts inside churches to be protected by law. This, no Christian can accept.

So your approach is to destroy what little credibility the MP has left just so you can get your revenge? It is quite strange that the atheist recommends the prudence and restraint that would build confidence in the Russian Church and maintain its influence in Russian society, while the Russian Church and their supporters rush headlong into scandal and their own destruction.

People accuse atheists of trying to destroy Religion, specifically Christianity, but we could never, in our wildest dreams, inflict anywhere near the level damage on the Church that Christians inflict daily when they preach one thing and do another. Just like no one could have undermined Judaism like the Jews did when they had Jesus executed for his blasphemy.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: laconicstudent on April 27, 2012, 04:09:12 PM
In that way, the demands of mercy and justice would be both met. However, what many in this thread seem to want is for blasphemous acts inside churches to be protected by law. This, no Christian can accept.

No, but we realize that imprisoning people who offend the dainty sensibilities of a few precious people for extended periods of time is ridiculous. The Soviets did that, remember? I thought we didn't want to be like the Communists. But now apparently it's cool to take an idea from their playbook and incarcerate people for insane lengths of time for trivial offenses.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: filipinopilgrim on April 27, 2012, 04:17:39 PM
For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.



I guess some of us just aren't obsessed with vengeance as others. My sympathies that the Roman Catholic Church in the Philippines would rather get back at some crazy then actually, I dunno, show some forgiveness and compassion?

But then again, when that assassin wounded Pope John Paul II, he himself was screaming for the guy's execution in accordance with the maximum penalty of the law- oh wait,

Pope John Paul II Forgives His Would-Be Assassin
 (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,952295,00.html)

Too bad that Archdiocese can't take the recently beatified Pope's example.

Really, if you think the best way to "defend the honor of our sanctuaries" is to brutally punish anyone who dares offend you, that is pathetically insecure.

Pope John Paul II forgave his would-be assassin. He also made it clear that Ali Agca would remain in jail in accordance with Italian law.

Agca was in prison for 19 years, from 1981 to 2000, in Italy, in punishment for the attempted assassination. He could have stayed in jail longer had he not received a pardon fron the President of Italy. After that he was deported to Turkey to spend another 10 years in jail for a different crime.

Mercy is important, but so is justice.

1. He was originally sentenced to life.
2. Attacking the Pope was once a capital offense in Italy.
3. He was pardoned at the Pope's specific request, so no, Pope John Paul II did not make it clear that Agca would "remain in jail in accordance with Italian law", because according to Italian law Agca should have been dumped in prison for the rest of his life. Try again.

He was pardoned AFTER spending nearly 2 decades in jail. Before that, the Vatican position, widely reported in news reports from the time, is that it deferred to Italian justice.

Try again? How about YOU try again?

And yet, there was forgiveness and a pardon. The Pope wasn't chomping at the bit at the prospect of judicial revenge like some people here seem to think would be a good thing for the Church to do.

Forgiveness and pardon AFTER the judicial system had done its work. In the case at hand, the judicial process isn't finished yet. Let it be finished first before calling for mercy.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: laconicstudent on April 27, 2012, 04:18:57 PM
For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.



I guess some of us just aren't obsessed with vengeance as others. My sympathies that the Roman Catholic Church in the Philippines would rather get back at some crazy then actually, I dunno, show some forgiveness and compassion?

But then again, when that assassin wounded Pope John Paul II, he himself was screaming for the guy's execution in accordance with the maximum penalty of the law- oh wait,

Pope John Paul II Forgives His Would-Be Assassin
 (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,952295,00.html)

Too bad that Archdiocese can't take the recently beatified Pope's example.

Really, if you think the best way to "defend the honor of our sanctuaries" is to brutally punish anyone who dares offend you, that is pathetically insecure.

Pope John Paul II forgave his would-be assassin. He also made it clear that Ali Agca would remain in jail in accordance with Italian law.

Agca was in prison for 19 years, from 1981 to 2000, in Italy, in punishment for the attempted assassination. He could have stayed in jail longer had he not received a pardon fron the President of Italy. After that he was deported to Turkey to spend another 10 years in jail for a different crime.

Mercy is important, but so is justice.

1. He was originally sentenced to life.
2. Attacking the Pope was once a capital offense in Italy.
3. He was pardoned at the Pope's specific request, so no, Pope John Paul II did not make it clear that Agca would "remain in jail in accordance with Italian law", because according to Italian law Agca should have been dumped in prison for the rest of his life. Try again.

He was pardoned AFTER spending nearly 2 decades in jail. Before that, the Vatican position, widely reported in news reports from the time, is that it deferred to Italian justice.

Try again? How about YOU try again?

And yet, there was forgiveness and a pardon. The Pope wasn't chomping at the bit at the prospect of judicial revenge like some people here seem to think would be a good thing for the Church to do.

Forgiveness and pardon AFTER the judicial system had done its work. In the case at hand, the judicial process isn't finished yet. Let it be finished first before calling for mercy.

Thank goodness our Lord Jesus Christ doesn't share your attitude.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: filipinopilgrim on April 27, 2012, 04:19:41 PM
In that way, the demands of mercy and justice would be both met. However, what many in this thread seem to want is for blasphemous acts inside churches to be protected by law. This, no Christian can accept.

No, but we realize that imprisoning people who offend the dainty sensibilities of a few precious people for extended periods of time is ridiculous. The Soviets did that, remember? I thought we didn't want to be like the Communists. But now apparently it's cool to take an idea from their playbook and incarcerate people for insane lengths of time for trivial offenses.

Is blasphemy trivial? The problem is that you're assuming that it is trivial for EVERYONE. Perhaps for people like you, but certainly not for many believers. In a country where thousands of churches were blown up after a concerted Bolshevik campaign of anti-religious ridicule, no, I don't think it's trivial.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: filipinopilgrim on April 27, 2012, 04:22:19 PM
For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.



I guess some of us just aren't obsessed with vengeance as others. My sympathies that the Roman Catholic Church in the Philippines would rather get back at some crazy then actually, I dunno, show some forgiveness and compassion?

But then again, when that assassin wounded Pope John Paul II, he himself was screaming for the guy's execution in accordance with the maximum penalty of the law- oh wait,

Pope John Paul II Forgives His Would-Be Assassin
 (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,952295,00.html)

Too bad that Archdiocese can't take the recently beatified Pope's example.

Really, if you think the best way to "defend the honor of our sanctuaries" is to brutally punish anyone who dares offend you, that is pathetically insecure.

Pope John Paul II forgave his would-be assassin. He also made it clear that Ali Agca would remain in jail in accordance with Italian law.

Agca was in prison for 19 years, from 1981 to 2000, in Italy, in punishment for the attempted assassination. He could have stayed in jail longer had he not received a pardon fron the President of Italy. After that he was deported to Turkey to spend another 10 years in jail for a different crime.

Mercy is important, but so is justice.

1. He was originally sentenced to life.
2. Attacking the Pope was once a capital offense in Italy.
3. He was pardoned at the Pope's specific request, so no, Pope John Paul II did not make it clear that Agca would "remain in jail in accordance with Italian law", because according to Italian law Agca should have been dumped in prison for the rest of his life. Try again.

He was pardoned AFTER spending nearly 2 decades in jail. Before that, the Vatican position, widely reported in news reports from the time, is that it deferred to Italian justice.

Try again? How about YOU try again?

And yet, there was forgiveness and a pardon. The Pope wasn't chomping at the bit at the prospect of judicial revenge like some people here seem to think would be a good thing for the Church to do.

Forgiveness and pardon AFTER the judicial system had done its work. In the case at hand, the judicial process isn't finished yet. Let it be finished first before calling for mercy.

Thank goodness our Lord Jesus Christ doesn't share your attitude.

I do not recognize the fluffy, sentimental, all-luv-and-no-justice Jeezus that you worship.

Our Lord Jesus Christ referred time and again to his era's harsh judicial processes in His parables, without the slightest hint that he condemned these. He did step in to save an adulterer, but only after that adulterer had already gone through the process and was already facing execution.

It is not for the Church to dictate the judicial process, but to follow it, and to temper it with mercy when needed -- but not to supplant it entirely.

Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: laconicstudent on April 27, 2012, 04:22:55 PM
In that way, the demands of mercy and justice would be both met. However, what many in this thread seem to want is for blasphemous acts inside churches to be protected by law. This, no Christian can accept.

No, but we realize that imprisoning people who offend the dainty sensibilities of a few precious people for extended periods of time is ridiculous. The Soviets did that, remember? I thought we didn't want to be like the Communists. But now apparently it's cool to take an idea from their playbook and incarcerate people for insane lengths of time for trivial offenses.

Is blasphemy trivial?

From a civil standpoint? Absolutely, except in Muslim countries where they stone or behead blasphemers. Why are you so eager to emulate them?

The problem is that you're assuming that it is trivial for EVERYONE. Perhaps for people like you, but certainly not for many believers.

Then "many believers" need to stop being such delicate little flowers, frankly.

In a country where thousands of churches were blown up after a concerted Bolshevik campaign of anti-religious ridicule, no, I don't think it's trivial.

Oh, that must mean swinging the pendulum the other way and throwing people who make a scene in churches into indefinite detention is a good idea. Maybe we can even set up some camps out in Siberia so they can work off their "blasphemy" with a "penance" of hard labor.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Punch on April 27, 2012, 04:23:31 PM
Yeh, right.  I sure as heck did not invent Hell.

For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.



I guess some of us just aren't obsessed with vengeance as others. My sympathies that the Roman Catholic Church in the Philippines would rather get back at some crazy then actually, I dunno, show some forgiveness and compassion?

But then again, when that assassin wounded Pope John Paul II, he himself was screaming for the guy's execution in accordance with the maximum penalty of the law- oh wait,

Pope John Paul II Forgives His Would-Be Assassin
 (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,952295,00.html)

Too bad that Archdiocese can't take the recently beatified Pope's example.

Really, if you think the best way to "defend the honor of our sanctuaries" is to brutally punish anyone who dares offend you, that is pathetically insecure.

Pope John Paul II forgave his would-be assassin. He also made it clear that Ali Agca would remain in jail in accordance with Italian law.

Agca was in prison for 19 years, from 1981 to 2000, in Italy, in punishment for the attempted assassination. He could have stayed in jail longer had he not received a pardon fron the President of Italy. After that he was deported to Turkey to spend another 10 years in jail for a different crime.

Mercy is important, but so is justice.

1. He was originally sentenced to life.
2. Attacking the Pope was once a capital offense in Italy.
3. He was pardoned at the Pope's specific request, so no, Pope John Paul II did not make it clear that Agca would "remain in jail in accordance with Italian law", because according to Italian law Agca should have been dumped in prison for the rest of his life. Try again.

He was pardoned AFTER spending nearly 2 decades in jail. Before that, the Vatican position, widely reported in news reports from the time, is that it deferred to Italian justice.

Try again? How about YOU try again?

And yet, there was forgiveness and a pardon. The Pope wasn't chomping at the bit at the prospect of judicial revenge like some people here seem to think would be a good thing for the Church to do.

Forgiveness and pardon AFTER the judicial system had done its work. In the case at hand, the judicial process isn't finished yet. Let it be finished first before calling for mercy.

Thank goodness our Lord Jesus Christ doesn't share your attitude.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: laconicstudent on April 27, 2012, 04:25:37 PM
For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.



I guess some of us just aren't obsessed with vengeance as others. My sympathies that the Roman Catholic Church in the Philippines would rather get back at some crazy then actually, I dunno, show some forgiveness and compassion?

But then again, when that assassin wounded Pope John Paul II, he himself was screaming for the guy's execution in accordance with the maximum penalty of the law- oh wait,

Pope John Paul II Forgives His Would-Be Assassin
 (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,952295,00.html)

Too bad that Archdiocese can't take the recently beatified Pope's example.

Really, if you think the best way to "defend the honor of our sanctuaries" is to brutally punish anyone who dares offend you, that is pathetically insecure.

Pope John Paul II forgave his would-be assassin. He also made it clear that Ali Agca would remain in jail in accordance with Italian law.

Agca was in prison for 19 years, from 1981 to 2000, in Italy, in punishment for the attempted assassination. He could have stayed in jail longer had he not received a pardon fron the President of Italy. After that he was deported to Turkey to spend another 10 years in jail for a different crime.

Mercy is important, but so is justice.

1. He was originally sentenced to life.
2. Attacking the Pope was once a capital offense in Italy.
3. He was pardoned at the Pope's specific request, so no, Pope John Paul II did not make it clear that Agca would "remain in jail in accordance with Italian law", because according to Italian law Agca should have been dumped in prison for the rest of his life. Try again.

He was pardoned AFTER spending nearly 2 decades in jail. Before that, the Vatican position, widely reported in news reports from the time, is that it deferred to Italian justice.

Try again? How about YOU try again?

And yet, there was forgiveness and a pardon. The Pope wasn't chomping at the bit at the prospect of judicial revenge like some people here seem to think would be a good thing for the Church to do.

Forgiveness and pardon AFTER the judicial system had done its work. In the case at hand, the judicial process isn't finished yet. Let it be finished first before calling for mercy.

Thank goodness our Lord Jesus Christ doesn't share your attitude.

I do not recognize the fluffy, sentimental, all-luv-and-no-justice Jeezus that you worship.

You don't believe in a Jesus who grants us salvation from the fires of Hell? That's twisted.

Our Lord Jesus Christ referred time and again to his era's judicial process in His parables, without the slightest hint that he condemned these. He did step in to save an adulterer, but only after that adulterer had already gone through the process and was already facing execution.

You do realize "the process" was throwing rocks at her until she died of blunt trauma, right? The process was hardly complete.

It is not for the Church to dictate the judicial process, but to follow it, and to temper it with mercy when needed -- but not to supplant it entirely.



Yes, so it would be nice if certain organizations would stop drooling at the prospect of making people suffer.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: filipinopilgrim on April 27, 2012, 04:29:01 PM
For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.



I guess some of us just aren't obsessed with vengeance as others. My sympathies that the Roman Catholic Church in the Philippines would rather get back at some crazy then actually, I dunno, show some forgiveness and compassion?

But then again, when that assassin wounded Pope John Paul II, he himself was screaming for the guy's execution in accordance with the maximum penalty of the law- oh wait,

Pope John Paul II Forgives His Would-Be Assassin
 (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,952295,00.html)

Too bad that Archdiocese can't take the recently beatified Pope's example.

Really, if you think the best way to "defend the honor of our sanctuaries" is to brutally punish anyone who dares offend you, that is pathetically insecure.

Pope John Paul II forgave his would-be assassin. He also made it clear that Ali Agca would remain in jail in accordance with Italian law.

Agca was in prison for 19 years, from 1981 to 2000, in Italy, in punishment for the attempted assassination. He could have stayed in jail longer had he not received a pardon fron the President of Italy. After that he was deported to Turkey to spend another 10 years in jail for a different crime.

Mercy is important, but so is justice.

1. He was originally sentenced to life.
2. Attacking the Pope was once a capital offense in Italy.
3. He was pardoned at the Pope's specific request, so no, Pope John Paul II did not make it clear that Agca would "remain in jail in accordance with Italian law", because according to Italian law Agca should have been dumped in prison for the rest of his life. Try again.

He was pardoned AFTER spending nearly 2 decades in jail. Before that, the Vatican position, widely reported in news reports from the time, is that it deferred to Italian justice.

Try again? How about YOU try again?

And yet, there was forgiveness and a pardon. The Pope wasn't chomping at the bit at the prospect of judicial revenge like some people here seem to think would be a good thing for the Church to do.

Forgiveness and pardon AFTER the judicial system had done its work. In the case at hand, the judicial process isn't finished yet. Let it be finished first before calling for mercy.

Thank goodness our Lord Jesus Christ doesn't share your attitude.

So, I take it that even John Paul II didn't have Jesus' attitude? Because, as I've pointed out, he asked for pardon for his would-be killer AFTER the judicial system had done its work. The idea that mercy should be shown after the judicial system has first done its work seems to offend you deeply.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: filipinopilgrim on April 27, 2012, 04:32:16 PM
Quote
You don't believe in a Jesus who grants us salvation from the fires of Hell? That's twisted.

And what has that got to do with the case in hand? Is anyone about to throw the Pussy Riot girls into the fires of hell?


Quote
Our Lord Jesus Christ referred time and again to his era's judicial process in His parables, without the slightest hint that he condemned these. He did step in to save an adulterer, but only after that adulterer had already gone through the process and was already facing execution.

You do realize "the process" was throwing rocks at her until she died of blunt trauma, right? The process was hardly complete.

Uhm, that's why I said she was FACING execution.

Quote
It is not for the Church to dictate the judicial process, but to follow it, and to temper it with mercy when needed -- but not to supplant it entirely.


Yes, so it would be nice if certain organizations would stop drooling at the prospect of making people suffer.

I take it that for you, anyone who wants to see justice done is "drooling at the prospect of making people suffer." If a distinction so basic cannot be understood by your mind, I submit that there is no point discussing "justice" and "mercy" with you in the first place.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: laconicstudent on April 27, 2012, 04:35:19 PM

Quote
You don't believe in a Jesus who grants us salvation from the fires of Hell? That's twisted.

And what has that got to do with the case in hand? Is anyone about to throw the Pussy Riot girls into the fires of hell?

 ::)

I am merely glad that Jesus doesn't share your attitude of just punishment first and grace later. Because I doubt anyone would be happy if he threw the entire Church into Hell with the placid remark that we shouldn't worry, we'd get our mercy and salvation after an eternity of torment.

Quote
Our Lord Jesus Christ referred time and again to his era's judicial process in His parables, without the slightest hint that he condemned these. He did step in to save an adulterer, but only after that adulterer had already gone through the process and was already facing execution.

You do realize "the process" was throwing rocks at her until she died of blunt trauma, right? The process was hardly complete.

Uhm, that's why I said she was FACING execution.

Yes, that's kind of my point.  ::)

Quote
It is not for the Church to dictate the judicial process, but to follow it, and to temper it with mercy when needed -- but not to supplant it entirely.


Yes, so it would be nice if certain organizations would stop drooling at the prospect of making people suffer.

I take it that for you, anyone who wants to see justice done is "drooling at the prospect of making people suffer."

No. Have we reached the point where we just start screaming and making stuff up about each other now? Is that what I'm sensing?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: filipinopilgrim on April 27, 2012, 04:52:03 PM

Quote
You don't believe in a Jesus who grants us salvation from the fires of Hell? That's twisted.

And what has that got to do with the case in hand? Is anyone about to throw the Pussy Riot girls into the fires of hell?

 ::)

I am merely glad that Jesus doesn't share your attitude of just punishment first and grace later. Because I doubt anyone would be happy if he threw the entire Church into Hell with the placid remark that we shouldn't worry, we'd get our mercy and salvation after an eternity of torment.

Quote
Our Lord Jesus Christ referred time and again to his era's judicial process in His parables, without the slightest hint that he condemned these. He did step in to save an adulterer, but only after that adulterer had already gone through the process and was already facing execution.

You do realize "the process" was throwing rocks at her until she died of blunt trauma, right? The process was hardly complete.

Uhm, that's why I said she was FACING execution.

Yes, that's kind of my point.  ::)

Quote
It is not for the Church to dictate the judicial process, but to follow it, and to temper it with mercy when needed -- but not to supplant it entirely.


Yes, so it would be nice if certain organizations would stop drooling at the prospect of making people suffer.

I take it that for you, anyone who wants to see justice done is "drooling at the prospect of making people suffer."

No. Have we reached the point where we just start screaming and making stuff up about each other now? Is that what I'm sensing?

And who was it who first said that some organizations are "drooling at the prospect of making people suffer."? And who was it who tried to bring the topic of hell into the picture, when all that we're discussing is the question of the proper EARTHLY punishment for those who act blasphemously in churches?

For a laconic student, you say a lot. Unfortunately so much of it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: laconicstudent on April 27, 2012, 04:56:52 PM

Quote
You don't believe in a Jesus who grants us salvation from the fires of Hell? That's twisted.

And what has that got to do with the case in hand? Is anyone about to throw the Pussy Riot girls into the fires of hell?

 ::)

I am merely glad that Jesus doesn't share your attitude of just punishment first and grace later. Because I doubt anyone would be happy if he threw the entire Church into Hell with the placid remark that we shouldn't worry, we'd get our mercy and salvation after an eternity of torment.

Quote
Our Lord Jesus Christ referred time and again to his era's judicial process in His parables, without the slightest hint that he condemned these. He did step in to save an adulterer, but only after that adulterer had already gone through the process and was already facing execution.

You do realize "the process" was throwing rocks at her until she died of blunt trauma, right? The process was hardly complete.

Uhm, that's why I said she was FACING execution.

Yes, that's kind of my point.  ::)

Quote
It is not for the Church to dictate the judicial process, but to follow it, and to temper it with mercy when needed -- but not to supplant it entirely.


Yes, so it would be nice if certain organizations would stop drooling at the prospect of making people suffer.

I take it that for you, anyone who wants to see justice done is "drooling at the prospect of making people suffer."

No. Have we reached the point where we just start screaming and making stuff up about each other now? Is that what I'm sensing?

And who was it who first said that some organizations are "drooling at the prospect of making people suffer."?

Well, gee, I wasn't aware that you were literally the Roman Catholic Church in the Philippines. That doesn't seem possible. Are you the computer network at the Chancery which became self-aware on August 29, 1997?


And who was it who tried to bring the topic of hell into the picture, when all that we're discussing is the question of the proper punishment for those who act blasphemously in churches?

It's called an "analogy". Heard of them before?

For a laconic student, you say a lot. Unfortunately so much of it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.


I'm sorry you aren't able to follow a simple metaphor.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Ansgar on April 27, 2012, 05:05:24 PM
Quote
Respect is only important when it is honestly earned, no person is entitled to respect by virtue of their office, no matter how high
In this case, I was talking more about respect for the church building. It is a sacret place, and as you don't starts yelling inside a library because to hate the librairian, I don't think that they should have sung that song inside the church.
 
Quote
But so long as they do not destroy your property or cause bodily harm to your person, their actions are political, not criminal,
But they were still offending people. Sometimes, it must be considered whether one has crossed the line. I don't think Pussy Riot meant to hurt anybody, but they did and in that case I think that it should at least be considered whether or not this could have been done in a different way.

Mind you GiC, that I do agree that the women have been treated rather unjustly and that this in the end will only do harm to the Russian Church.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: laconicstudent on April 27, 2012, 05:09:17 PM
Quote
Respect is only important when it is honestly earned, no person is entitled to respect by virtue of their office, no matter how high
In this case, I was talking more about respect for the church building. It is a sacret place, and as you don't starts yelling inside a library because to hate the librairian, I don't think that they should have sung that song inside the church.
 
Quote
But so long as they do not destroy your property or cause bodily harm to your person, their actions are political, not criminal,
But they were still offending people. Sometimes, it must be considered whether one has crossed the line. I don't think Pussy Riot meant to hurt anybody, but they did and in that case I think that it should at least be considered whether or not this could have been done in a different way.

Mind you GiC, that I do agree that the women have been treated rather unjustly and that this in the end will only do harm to the Russian Church.

Wait, people actually were injured by this? I hadn't heard that at all. What happened?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Ansgar on April 27, 2012, 05:12:42 PM
Quote
Respect is only important when it is honestly earned, no person is entitled to respect by virtue of their office, no matter how high
In this case, I was talking more about respect for the church building. It is a sacret place, and as you don't starts yelling inside a library because to hate the librairian, I don't think that they should have sung that song inside the church.
 
Quote
But so long as they do not destroy your property or cause bodily harm to your person, their actions are political, not criminal,
But they were still offending people. Sometimes, it must be considered whether one has crossed the line. I don't think Pussy Riot meant to hurt anybody, but they did and in that case I think that it should at least be considered whether or not this could have been done in a different way.

Mind you GiC, that I do agree that the women have been treated rather unjustly and that this in the end will only do harm to the Russian Church.

Wait, people actually were injured by this? I hadn't heard that at all. What happened?

No no, "hurted" like making people sad. Maybe, I should have used another word. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: laconicstudent on April 27, 2012, 05:15:27 PM
Quote
Respect is only important when it is honestly earned, no person is entitled to respect by virtue of their office, no matter how high
In this case, I was talking more about respect for the church building. It is a sacret place, and as you don't starts yelling inside a library because to hate the librairian, I don't think that they should have sung that song inside the church.
 
Quote
But so long as they do not destroy your property or cause bodily harm to your person, their actions are political, not criminal,
But they were still offending people. Sometimes, it must be considered whether one has crossed the line. I don't think Pussy Riot meant to hurt anybody, but they did and in that case I think that it should at least be considered whether or not this could have been done in a different way.

Mind you GiC, that I do agree that the women have been treated rather unjustly and that this in the end will only do harm to the Russian Church.

Wait, people actually were injured by this? I hadn't heard that at all. What happened?

No no, "hurted" like making people sad. Maybe, I should have used another word. 

Oh, ok. Yeah, my first thought was surprise that nobody had brought up Pussy Riot managing to injure people. I have to admit, Pussy Riot hurting people's feelings doesn't particularly outrage me.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Ansgar on April 27, 2012, 05:22:55 PM
Quote
Respect is only important when it is honestly earned, no person is entitled to respect by virtue of their office, no matter how high
In this case, I was talking more about respect for the church building. It is a sacret place, and as you don't starts yelling inside a library because to hate the librairian, I don't think that they should have sung that song inside the church.
 
Quote
But so long as they do not destroy your property or cause bodily harm to your person, their actions are political, not criminal,
But they were still offending people. Sometimes, it must be considered whether one has crossed the line. I don't think Pussy Riot meant to hurt anybody, but they did and in that case I think that it should at least be considered whether or not this could have been done in a different way.

Mind you GiC, that I do agree that the women have been treated rather unjustly and that this in the end will only do harm to the Russian Church.

Wait, people actually were injured by this? I hadn't heard that at all. What happened?

No no, "hurted" like making people sad. Maybe, I should have used another word. 

Oh, ok. Yeah, my first thought was surprise that nobody had brought up Pussy Riot managing to injure people. I have to admit, Pussy Riot hurting people's feelings doesn't particularly outrage me.

Of course, but as far as I have understood, they protested against the Patriarch's and the Church's involvement in politics. They could have protested outside the church or the Patriarchs residence or something.

Now when I think about it, "hurted" was a really bad choice of words. Maybe I should have said offended instead.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: laconicstudent on April 27, 2012, 05:37:37 PM
Quote
Respect is only important when it is honestly earned, no person is entitled to respect by virtue of their office, no matter how high
In this case, I was talking more about respect for the church building. It is a sacret place, and as you don't starts yelling inside a library because to hate the librairian, I don't think that they should have sung that song inside the church.
 
Quote
But so long as they do not destroy your property or cause bodily harm to your person, their actions are political, not criminal,
But they were still offending people. Sometimes, it must be considered whether one has crossed the line. I don't think Pussy Riot meant to hurt anybody, but they did and in that case I think that it should at least be considered whether or not this could have been done in a different way.

Mind you GiC, that I do agree that the women have been treated rather unjustly and that this in the end will only do harm to the Russian Church.

Wait, people actually were injured by this? I hadn't heard that at all. What happened?

No no, "hurted" like making people sad. Maybe, I should have used another word. 

Oh, ok. Yeah, my first thought was surprise that nobody had brought up Pussy Riot managing to injure people. I have to admit, Pussy Riot hurting people's feelings doesn't particularly outrage me.

Of course, but as far as I have understood, they protested against the Patriarch's and the Church's involvement in politics. They could have protested outside the church or the Patriarchs residence or something.

Now when I think about it, "hurted" was a really bad choice of words. Maybe I should have said offended instead.

Oh, I agree. Protesting outside or at his residence would have been vastly more appropriate. Protesting inside the church was a wrong call. But still I'd say it is something that would net you a night in custody, a routine march past a judge and a fine or a week or two in jail at most.

I mean, emotions over the extremely inappropriate political display in a cathedral aside, what did they do? They made a spectacle of themselves, disrupted what was happening at the time in the church, and made people angry. That's it, as far as I know. Now people are very upset about the "blasphemy" and "desecration" (I think at most you would say it was "sacrilege", but whatever), but what does that have to do with their time in prison and Russian criminal justice? Are we seriously taking religious canon law into consideration in the Russian courts? Because they do that in Iran, Saudi Arabia and other Islamic nations, and the rest of the world strongly condemns that type of jurisprudence.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Ansgar on April 27, 2012, 05:46:56 PM
Quote
Respect is only important when it is honestly earned, no person is entitled to respect by virtue of their office, no matter how high
In this case, I was talking more about respect for the church building. It is a sacret place, and as you don't starts yelling inside a library because to hate the librairian, I don't think that they should have sung that song inside the church.
 
Quote
But so long as they do not destroy your property or cause bodily harm to your person, their actions are political, not criminal,
But they were still offending people. Sometimes, it must be considered whether one has crossed the line. I don't think Pussy Riot meant to hurt anybody, but they did and in that case I think that it should at least be considered whether or not this could have been done in a different way.

Mind you GiC, that I do agree that the women have been treated rather unjustly and that this in the end will only do harm to the Russian Church.

Wait, people actually were injured by this? I hadn't heard that at all. What happened?

No no, "hurted" like making people sad. Maybe, I should have used another word. 

Oh, ok. Yeah, my first thought was surprise that nobody had brought up Pussy Riot managing to injure people. I have to admit, Pussy Riot hurting people's feelings doesn't particularly outrage me.

Of course, but as far as I have understood, they protested against the Patriarch's and the Church's involvement in politics. They could have protested outside the church or the Patriarchs residence or something.

Now when I think about it, "hurted" was a really bad choice of words. Maybe I should have said offended instead.

Oh, I agree. Protesting outside or at his residence would have been vastly more appropriate. Protesting inside the church was a wrong call. But still I'd say it is something that would net you a night in custody, a routine march past a judge and a fine or a week or two in jail at most.

I mean, emotions over the extremely inappropriate political display in a cathedral aside, what did they do? They made a spectacle of themselves, disrupted what was happening at the time in the church, and made people angry. That's it, as far as I know. Now people are very upset about the "blasphemy" and "desecration" (I think at most you would say it was "sacrilege", but whatever), but what does that have to do with their time in prison and Russian criminal justice? Are we seriously taking religious canon law into consideration in the Russian courts? Because they do that in Iran, Saudi Arabia and other Islamic nations, and the rest of the world strongly condemns that type of jurisprudence.

Of course not. I too think that this case have been blown completely out of proportions. It makes me really sad and I wish that the Church could just forgive them, so we can forget about all this. I don't think the Church is helping these women in any way by letting them go to prison.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Νεκτάριος on April 27, 2012, 05:56:11 PM
Of course not. I too think that this case have been blown completely out of proportions. It makes me really sad and I wish that the Church could just forgive them, so we can forget about all this. I don't think the Church is helping these women in any way by letting them go to prison.

It isn't about helping these women.  The church is a department of the Kremlin.  These ladies mocked the Kremlin and its messiah.  An example must be made of them.  Such is how the system works in the USSR. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Ansgar on April 27, 2012, 06:01:44 PM
Of course not. I too think that this case have been blown completely out of proportions. It makes me really sad and I wish that the Church could just forgive them, so we can forget about all this. I don't think the Church is helping these women in any way by letting them go to prison.

It isn't about helping these women.  The church is a department of the Kremlin.  These ladies mocked the Kremlin and its messiah.  An example must be made of them.  Such is how the system works in the USSR. 

When I say helping, I mean that it won't do them any good. It will most likely just draw them further away from Christianity.

P.S. Can't we just call it Russia? The government may be authoritarian, but it is not exactly socialist.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Νεκτάριος on April 27, 2012, 06:06:04 PM
Of course not. I too think that this case have been blown completely out of proportions. It makes me really sad and I wish that the Church could just forgive them, so we can forget about all this. I don't think the Church is helping these women in any way by letting them go to prison.

It isn't about helping these women.  The church is a department of the Kremlin.  These ladies mocked the Kremlin and its messiah.  An example must be made of them.  Such is how the system works in the USSR. 

When I say helping, I mean that it won't do them any good. It will most likely just draw them further away from Christianity.

P.S. Can't we just call it Russia? The government may be authoritarian, but it is not exactly socialist.

The USSR never really was socialist.  The point that you are missing is that the mission of the Russian Orthodox Church is to support the Kremlin and be a bulwark against Jews and other nefarious forces in society.  Salvation of souls and Christians type things are best left to local protestants. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Ansgar on April 27, 2012, 06:13:48 PM
Of course not. I too think that this case have been blown completely out of proportions. It makes me really sad and I wish that the Church could just forgive them, so we can forget about all this. I don't think the Church is helping these women in any way by letting them go to prison.

It isn't about helping these women.  The church is a department of the Kremlin.  These ladies mocked the Kremlin and its messiah.  An example must be made of them.  Such is how the system works in the USSR. 

When I say helping, I mean that it won't do them any good. It will most likely just draw them further away from Christianity.

P.S. Can't we just call it Russia? The government may be authoritarian, but it is not exactly socialist.

The USSR never really was socialist.  The point that you are missing is that the mission of the Russian Orthodox Church is to support the Kremlin and be a bulwark against Jews and other nefarious forces in society.  Salvation of souls and Christians type things are best left to local protestants. 
Don't you think you are overreacting just a little bit? Surely there must be some part of the russian clergy who desires the salvation of their flocks.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Νεκτάριος on April 27, 2012, 06:21:15 PM
Of course not. I too think that this case have been blown completely out of proportions. It makes me really sad and I wish that the Church could just forgive them, so we can forget about all this. I don't think the Church is helping these women in any way by letting them go to prison.

It isn't about helping these women.  The church is a department of the Kremlin.  These ladies mocked the Kremlin and its messiah.  An example must be made of them.  Such is how the system works in the USSR. 

When I say helping, I mean that it won't do them any good. It will most likely just draw them further away from Christianity.

P.S. Can't we just call it Russia? The government may be authoritarian, but it is not exactly socialist.

The USSR never really was socialist.  The point that you are missing is that the mission of the Russian Orthodox Church is to support the Kremlin and be a bulwark against Jews and other nefarious forces in society.  Salvation of souls and Christians type things are best left to local protestants. 
Don't you think you are overreacting just a little bit? Surely there must be some part of the russian clergy who desires the salvation of their flocks.

Of course there are many great members of the lower clergy and even a few members of the episcopacy that don't see themselves as Soviet Bureaucrats.  Things seem to have changed since the elections though.  My own gut feeling is that there is a lot more pressure from above to be political and cast certain people as enemies of the Church due to their political beliefs.  On the whole though, I'd say the Russian Orthodox Church sees itself as a secular institution with a mission tied to the Kremlin.  Again, exceptions exist, but not as many as there ought to be. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: GiC on April 27, 2012, 06:38:41 PM
Quote
Respect is only important when it is honestly earned, no person is entitled to respect by virtue of their office, no matter how high
In this case, I was talking more about respect for the church building. It is a sacret place, and as you don't starts yelling inside a library because to hate the librairian, I don't think that they should have sung that song inside the church.

Well, it's good to hear you meant the Church and not Putin or the Patriarch. ;)

Quote
Quote
But so long as they do not destroy your property or cause bodily harm to your person, their actions are political, not criminal,
But they were still offending people. Sometimes, it must be considered whether one has crossed the line. I don't think Pussy Riot meant to hurt anybody, but they did and in that case I think that it should at least be considered whether or not this could have been done in a different way.

Mind you GiC, that I do agree that the women have been treated rather unjustly and that this in the end will only do harm to the Russian Church.

The protest was a probably a stupid move, if for no other reason than had the MP played this properly, had they risen above the politics, expressed forgiveness, and used this as a teaching opportunity, the protest would have backfired and had the opposite of the intended effect. Unless...

If they knew that this is how the MP would respond and were willing to be martyrs to advance their cause, I must say it was a stroke of genius. However, I find that unlikely, it was probably just a poorly planned publicity stunt. But, disagreeing with the tactics used or even the opinions expressed in a protest has never before stopped me from defending their rights...even when a part of me would rather see them shot. ;)
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: GiC on April 27, 2012, 07:02:43 PM

Quote
You don't believe in a Jesus who grants us salvation from the fires of Hell? That's twisted.

And what has that got to do with the case in hand? Is anyone about to throw the Pussy Riot girls into the fires of hell?

 ::)

I am merely glad that Jesus doesn't share your attitude of just punishment first and grace later. Because I doubt anyone would be happy if he threw the entire Church into Hell with the placid remark that we shouldn't worry, we'd get our mercy and salvation after an eternity of torment.

Quote
Our Lord Jesus Christ referred time and again to his era's judicial process in His parables, without the slightest hint that he condemned these. He did step in to save an adulterer, but only after that adulterer had already gone through the process and was already facing execution.

You do realize "the process" was throwing rocks at her until she died of blunt trauma, right? The process was hardly complete.

Uhm, that's why I said she was FACING execution.

Yes, that's kind of my point.  ::)

Quote
It is not for the Church to dictate the judicial process, but to follow it, and to temper it with mercy when needed -- but not to supplant it entirely.


Yes, so it would be nice if certain organizations would stop drooling at the prospect of making people suffer.

I take it that for you, anyone who wants to see justice done is "drooling at the prospect of making people suffer."

No. Have we reached the point where we just start screaming and making stuff up about each other now? Is that what I'm sensing?

And who was it who first said that some organizations are "drooling at the prospect of making people suffer."? And who was it who tried to bring the topic of hell into the picture, when all that we're discussing is the question of the proper EARTHLY punishment for those who act blasphemously in churches?

You make a very good point there. What is the proper earthly punishment for a crime against heaven? Which brings about a more fundamental question, do earthly courts even have jurisdiction to try crimes against heaven? Should not the laws of God be subject to his justice alone and not to the whims of a usurper? Or are Russia's trial judges all vicars of Christ capable of infallible and perfect justice in accordance with the mind of God?

When you allow blasphemy trials, you must logically concede that the Judge has lawful jurisdiction over God himself. For in a trial you must have two parties, one who caused harm and one who endured harm. One party is the person accused, the other party must naturally be the person the crime was committed against, in the case of blasphemy: God.

Of course, we wouldn't expect God to attend the trial in the flesh, he just sends one of his lawyers to represent him before the court so the court can decide if the accused did, indeed, cause harm to one of the divine persons. Now I have great respect for and a rather exalted view of the law and the judiciary (in theory at least), but to extend their jurisdiction and place them above God and Heaven? I might have expected that from Nietzsche, but the admission that men have jurisdiction over laws and will of God seems pretty remarkable coming from a Christian.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: ilyazhito on April 30, 2012, 10:23:54 AM
I think that those involved in Pussy Riot should pay a fine for hooliganism, and do ecclesiastical penance and community service. That way, they will be un-doing the damage that they did to society.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Gorazd on April 30, 2012, 11:32:54 AM
If they knew that this is how the MP would respond and were willing to be martyrs to advance their cause, I must say it was a stroke of genius. However, I find that unlikely, it was probably just a poorly planned publicity stunt.

I find it very likely. It is widely known that the MP still runs according to the old Communist mentality... While I consider it a shame for Orthodoxy how the MP behaves in this issue (if I was the Patriarch, then I'd openl forgive the young ladies and call for their immediate release), it doesn't come as a surprise to me.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: ilyazhito on April 30, 2012, 11:38:13 AM
If they knew that this is how the MP would respond and were willing to be martyrs to advance their cause, I must say it was a stroke of genius. However, I find that unlikely, it was probably just a poorly planned publicity stunt.

I find it very likely. It is widely known that the MP still runs according to the old Communist mentality... While I consider it a shame for Orthodoxy how the MP behaves in this issue (if I was the Patriarch, then I'd openl forgive the young ladies and call for their immediate release), it doesn't come as a surprise to me.
+1! Kudos to those who also suggest that. Even the senior priest, Mikhail Ryazantsev, would not discipline them through the civil legal system.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: vasily on May 01, 2012, 10:08:11 AM
Christ is Risen!

 This entire incident was dealt with incorrectly. The way it was handled only added resentment on both sides. The Patriarch of Moscow should have initiated a meeting with these individuals and discussed their grievances. Instead, the uncalled actions by a few were blown out of proportion. The punishment should have been x amount of hours of community service. For example, cleaning the inside of Christ the Saviour Cathedral, under strict supervision, or attending structured lectures about the New Martyrs and exactly what took place with the Orthodox Church under Communism. It is a very fine line with the Russian Orthodox Church, considering the tumultuous period under Communism and the now growing secularism from the West.

 The following was written by Abbot Tryphon, from the "morning offering blogspot". I feel the article puts things into perspective and addresses other important factors to be considered.

"Our courts have aggressively moved to push the Christian Faith further from the public forum. Attacks toward public displays of religious themes, such as the Ten Commandments, the Nativity Creches, and even crosses from the graves of soldiers, have increasingly become the norm. There is even a movement to force the police and fire department chaplains to remove the cross from their badges, something we've all vowed to resist. This aggressive move towards secularism has increasingly become a part of American foreign policy, with the move to pressure other countries to follow our lead. Just as the Russian Revolution was supported, in the very beginning, by the anti-monarchist sentiments of the American government, so too, are we seeing an increase in the negative attitudes of the American government towards the rise in power and influence, of the Russian Orthodox Church. At a time when our government leaders are pushing Christianity from the public forum, we criticize the Russian government because of it's close ties with the Russian Orthodox Church. We even question the sincerity of Russian leaders Orthodox Faith, perhaps because we know that many of our leaders have put on the veneer of being Christian for political survival. Russians know the dangers of aggressive secularism, having suffered seventy years of state sponsored atheism, and many Russians look with amazement at what they see as American capitulation to a secularism that has promoted a sort of state atheism of it's own. That the Moscow Patriarchate would seek the prosecution of the group pussy riot, for the desecration of Christ the Saviour Cathedral, with their "punk at prayer", invasion of tis sacred temple of GOd, has been greeted by so many Americans as a simple fact of childishness that should be forgiven, is further indication of just how far we have fallen as a Christian nation. We no longer see anything as a sacrilege, because we hold nothing to be sacred. The Moscow Patriarchate has announced a "war on aggressive liberalism", and called upon believers to fight the "anti-clerical forces" and "false values of aggressive liberalism". The Patriarch will not sit back complacently, and watch a replay of the rise of anti-Church forces that hurled the Russian people into the dark days of the Communist aggression against the Church, and against believers. The same forces that are aggressively seeking to discredit the clergy, divide Russian society, and turn Russians away from their temples, is at work in the United States."
(The rest of the article can be found on the website mentioned above.)
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: NicholasMyra on June 30, 2012, 04:39:20 PM
"Russian Orthodox church spokesman Vsevolod Chaplin said God told him in a divine revelation that he condemns members of female punk band Pussy Riot for their scandalous performance in Christ the Savior Cathedral.

'I am convinced that God condemns what they’ve done. I’m convinced that this sin will be punished in this life and the next,' the priest told reporters during a round table organized by The New Times magazine.
 
Chaplin added that 'God revealed this to me just like he revealed the Gospels to the church.”


Source: http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2012/06/god-condemns-pussy-riot-church-official-says/

With spokesmen like these, who needs enemies?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: LizaSymonenko on July 02, 2012, 12:21:18 AM

Wow!  That's quite some ego.

What of forgiveness?  Punished in this life and the next? 

Their actions were offensive but, unforgivable?  Really?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: NicholasMyra on July 02, 2012, 12:35:35 AM
I honestly wonder what sort of groupthink goes on in the MP that would produce such behavior.

That's some serious blasphemy.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Babalon on July 03, 2012, 01:48:20 AM
I love checking in on this thread. These perverse delusions of "justice" being thrown around are well worth the Internet time.   8)
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: LizaSymonenko on July 20, 2012, 04:53:23 PM

The trio, part of a band called Pussy Riot, will now stay in pre-trial detention for a further six months, until 12 January 2013.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18921225

The Orthodox Church has asked for the women to be treated severely.



Just seems overly harsh. 

They should of gotten some community service and called it done.

Insisting someone be treated "severely", just seems un-Orthodox.

 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Babalon on July 20, 2012, 11:31:39 PM

The trio, part of a band called Pussy Riot, will now stay in pre-trial detention for a further six months, until 12 January 2013.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18921225

The Orthodox Church has asked for the women to be treated severely.



Just seems overly harsh. 

They should of gotten some community service and called it done.

Insisting someone be treated "severely", just seems un-Orthodox.

 

I don't think major religious organizations, of any color, have ever been very good at living out their word.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Gorazd on July 21, 2012, 08:17:03 AM
If the church does not have mercy anymore, who does? What has happened with this world?

Legal experts say that even under Russian law, the girls should only receive a fine, not a jail sentence.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: stanley123 on July 21, 2012, 07:02:14 PM

I just watched the video.

I'd like to see them try this in a mosque.

I don't care if they are "religous" or not....this "dance" was a slap in the face of Orthodoxy!

They could have done this outside on the sidewalk and all would have been well.  Demonstrate all you want.  Freedom of speech!

....but, not right in front of the Altar, mimicking and mocking Orthodoxy.

Shameful!

I don't support the MP, or his greediness, but, this was an insult to all of Orthodoxy, not just the MP.




I agree wholeheartedly. And I agree with a ten year sentence with hard labor in jail or in a Siberian prison camp, although I would agree to lessen the sentence by a year or two for sincere repentance and good behavior in prison.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Gorazd on July 22, 2012, 10:56:55 AM
Let's all get real please. I understand that some people were offended. I was not - in fact, they never said anything against Christ or any teaching of the Church, they only attacked two persons - President Putin and Patriarch Kyrill.

Now they behaved in a Church otherwise than expected, but then again, I am reminded of what Christ did in the temple. Some people then cried "Crucify him".

Back to these singers: I am not an expert on common law in the US, but Russia has civil law - and there is one basic premise of the legal system: Only such punishments can be imposed that already were defined by law at the time the offense took place. So, all personal feelings aside, if they receive a setence of several years in prison, while according to the law, they should only get a fine, than that is scandalous. The judiciary must be independent, rule according to the law, and not be influenced by political interest.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: JamesR on July 22, 2012, 02:07:30 PM
Why would you stand up for a few punks acting inappropriately inside of a Church? Sure, they should not be in prison for any longer than a day, but why protest over them and go through all of this trouble?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Gorazd on July 22, 2012, 02:25:16 PM
Why would you stand up for a few punks acting inappropriately inside of a Church? Sure, they should not be in prison for any longer than a day, but why protest over them and go through all of this trouble?

1) Because there should be justice for all people, not just for the ones we like.
2) Because no injustice should happen in the name of the Orthodox Church.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Ionnis on July 22, 2012, 02:28:53 PM
Why would you stand up for a few punks acting inappropriately inside of a Church? Sure, they should not be in prison for any longer than a day, but why protest over them and go through all of this trouble?

I don't defend their actions, but I will defend them against gross injustice. I wonder why people defend the thoroughly corrupt, inhuman Moscow Patriarchate, that modern Sanhedrin.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: NicholasMyra on July 22, 2012, 05:27:10 PM
Why would you stand up for a few punks acting inappropriately inside of a Church?

Because it's the right thing to do.

For it is written:

"Bless those who persecute you, bless and do not curse." (Romans 12:14)

"But for your part, love those that hate you, and you will have no enemy". (Didache 1:3)

And these girls aren't even our enemies, bro. They were protesting corruption, albeit in an inappropriate way. The Ruskies want to jail them for 7 years! Such absurdity is not up for debate, it's out the window already.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: stanley123 on July 23, 2012, 12:42:22 AM
Why would you stand up for a few punks acting inappropriately inside of a Church?

Because it's the right thing to do.

For it is written:

"Bless those who persecute you, bless and do not curse." (Romans 12:14)

"But for your part, love those that hate you, and you will have no enemy". (Didache 1:3)

And these girls aren't even our enemies, bro. They were protesting corruption, albeit in an inappropriate way. The Ruskies want to jail them for 7 years! Such absurdity is not up for debate, it's out the window already.

We should love and bless criminals as they are human souls, but it is absurd to let them all go free and unpunished and do whatever they want.  I believe that the priests of the Russian Orthodox Church have spent many hard long days and nights studying Holy Scripture, Church teaching, morality and ethics. So I have a lot of respect and reverence for what the Russian Orthodox Church says. And we find that “The Russian Orthodox Church believes all those connected with a recent extravagant performance at the Christ the Savior Cathedral in Moscow should be identified and strictly punished.”
http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2012/03/orthodox-church-calls-for-punishing-performers-organizers-of-stunt-at-christ-the-savior-cathedral/
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: akimori makoto on July 23, 2012, 12:47:51 AM

Quote
You don't believe in a Jesus who grants us salvation from the fires of Hell? That's twisted.

And what has that got to do with the case in hand? Is anyone about to throw the Pussy Riot girls into the fires of hell?

 ::)

I am merely glad that Jesus doesn't share your attitude of just punishment first and grace later. Because I doubt anyone would be happy if he threw the entire Church into Hell with the placid remark that we shouldn't worry, we'd get our mercy and salvation after an eternity of torment.

Quote
Our Lord Jesus Christ referred time and again to his era's judicial process in His parables, without the slightest hint that he condemned these. He did step in to save an adulterer, but only after that adulterer had already gone through the process and was already facing execution.

You do realize "the process" was throwing rocks at her until she died of blunt trauma, right? The process was hardly complete.

Uhm, that's why I said she was FACING execution.

Yes, that's kind of my point.  ::)

Quote
It is not for the Church to dictate the judicial process, but to follow it, and to temper it with mercy when needed -- but not to supplant it entirely.


Yes, so it would be nice if certain organizations would stop drooling at the prospect of making people suffer.

I take it that for you, anyone who wants to see justice done is "drooling at the prospect of making people suffer."

No. Have we reached the point where we just start screaming and making stuff up about each other now? Is that what I'm sensing?

And who was it who first said that some organizations are "drooling at the prospect of making people suffer."? And who was it who tried to bring the topic of hell into the picture, when all that we're discussing is the question of the proper EARTHLY punishment for those who act blasphemously in churches?

You make a very good point there. What is the proper earthly punishment for a crime against heaven? Which brings about a more fundamental question, do earthly courts even have jurisdiction to try crimes against heaven? Should not the laws of God be subject to his justice alone and not to the whims of a usurper? Or are Russia's trial judges all vicars of Christ capable of infallible and perfect justice in accordance with the mind of God?

When you allow blasphemy trials, you must logically concede that the Judge has lawful jurisdiction over God himself. For in a trial you must have two parties, one who caused harm and one who endured harm. One party is the person accused, the other party must naturally be the person the crime was committed against, in the case of blasphemy: God.

Of course, we wouldn't expect God to attend the trial in the flesh, he just sends one of his lawyers to represent him before the court so the court can decide if the accused did, indeed, cause harm to one of the divine persons. Now I have great respect for and a rather exalted view of the law and the judiciary (in theory at least), but to extend their jurisdiction and place them above God and Heaven? I might have expected that from Nietzsche, but the admission that men have jurisdiction over laws and will of God seems pretty remarkable coming from a Christian.

No, blasphemy is a crime of offensiveness and indecency at large (though it was more akin to sedition originally).
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Gorazd on July 23, 2012, 01:26:27 AM
I believe that the priests of the Russian Orthodox Church have spent many hard long days and nights studying Holy Scripture, Church teaching, morality and ethics.
I am sure that many of them do. At the same time, I am profoundly convinced that the decision of the MP leadership to ask for a hard punishment, even one not justified by Russian law, was a political decision, rather than one based on prayer and study. After all, it seems like the words of Christ in Luke 6:36 have not been taken into account: "Be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful."

Tags editted - MK.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: NicholasMyra on July 23, 2012, 02:40:12 PM
We should love and bless criminals as they are human souls
Then you would be against someone falsely claiming divine revelation that someone's actions will be punished in this life and the next, right?

but it is absurd to let them all go free and unpunished and do whatever they want.
That is the job of the secular authorities. We don't need a Christian Church calling for blood and draconian punishment.


I believe that the priests of the Russian Orthodox Church have spent many hard long days and nights studying Holy Scripture, Church teaching, morality and ethics.
Many have. Many have not, probably, or at least not taken it to heart. Blasphemy goes pretty far against Church teaching.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: stanley123 on July 23, 2012, 02:46:13 PM
Blasphemy goes pretty far against Church teaching.
Absolutely.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: NicholasMyra on July 23, 2012, 02:48:33 PM
Blasphemy goes pretty far against Church teaching.
Absolutely.
So saying that God has revealed the eternal damnation of a few singers to you in the same way that he revealed the Gospels...

That ranks pretty high up there.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: stanley123 on July 23, 2012, 02:56:20 PM
Blasphemy goes pretty far against Church teaching.
Absolutely.
So saying that God has revealed the eternal damnation of a few singers to you in the same way that he revealed the Gospels...

That ranks pretty high up there.
? I am not sure how to respond reasonably to such a silly hypothesis? I already indicated my opinion that their performance was disgraceful, insulting and out of place in a Holy Church, and that I agree with the response of the Holy Russian Orthodox Church to this incident. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: vamrat on July 23, 2012, 03:16:03 PM
Blasphemy goes pretty far against Church teaching.
Absolutely.
So saying that God has revealed the eternal damnation of a few singers to you in the same way that he revealed the Gospels...

That ranks pretty high up there.
? I am not sure how to respond reasonably to such a silly hypothesis? I already indicated my opinion that their performance was disgraceful, insulting and out of place in a Holy Church, and that I agree with the response of the Holy Russian Orthodox Church to this incident. 

Well, I suppose it's only right that I agree with you in one thread today...   ;)

Perhaps the sentence is a little harsh.  I personally believe they should have been flogged by Cossacks, but all the same.  Disrespect to the altar deserves a beating.  I have slipped out and said naughty words while burning myself with a censor/candle/etc but didn't do so maliciously, begged God for forgiveness, and if my priest had heard and had decided to beat me I would not have pressed charges.  Such crimes must be punished.  If these skanks had shown any remorse perhaps the Church and the Courts should have forgiven them and let them go with a wrist slapping, but as it is...

Besides, they should feel lucky.  If they had done this in a mosque, as Liza joked about, they probably would have had their heads removed with a dull kitchen knife.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: NicholasMyra on July 23, 2012, 03:18:22 PM
Blasphemy goes pretty far against Church teaching.
Absolutely.
So saying that God has revealed the eternal damnation of a few singers to you in the same way that he revealed the Gospels...

That ranks pretty high up there.
? I am not sure how to respond reasonably to such a silly hypothesis?

"Russian Orthodox church spokesman Vsevolod Chaplin said God told him in a divine revelation that he condemns members of female punk band Pussy Riot for their scandalous performance in Christ the Savior Cathedral.

'I am convinced that God condemns what they’ve done. I’m convinced that this sin will be punished in this life and the next,' the priest told reporters during a round table organized by The New Times magazine.
 
Chaplin added that 'God revealed this to me just like he revealed the Gospels to the church.”


Source: http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2012/06/god-condemns-pussy-riot-church-official-says/

With spokesmen like these, who needs enemies?

Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: mike on July 23, 2012, 03:19:59 PM

Many have. Many have not, probably, or at least not taken it to heart. Blasphemy goes pretty far against Church teaching.

Blasphemy against Putin?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: NicholasMyra on July 23, 2012, 03:25:43 PM

Many have. Many have not, probably, or at least not taken it to heart. Blasphemy goes pretty far against Church teaching.

Blasphemy against Putin?
I was referring to the blasphemy against God, I.E. claiming divine revelation of someone else's eternal fate for a press release.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: mike on July 23, 2012, 03:27:29 PM
OK, I'm sorry. ^
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: stanley123 on July 23, 2012, 03:48:18 PM
Blasphemy goes pretty far against Church teaching.
Absolutely.
So saying that God has revealed the eternal damnation of a few singers to you in the same way that he revealed the Gospels...

That ranks pretty high up there.
? I am not sure how to respond reasonably to such a silly hypothesis?

"Russian Orthodox church spokesman Vsevolod Chaplin said God told him in a divine revelation that he condemns members of female punk band Pussy Riot for their scandalous performance in Christ the Savior Cathedral.

'I am convinced that God condemns what they’ve done. I’m convinced that this sin will be punished in this life and the next,' the priest told reporters during a round table organized by The New Times magazine.
 
Chaplin added that 'God revealed this to me just like he revealed the Gospels to the church.”


Source: http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2012/06/god-condemns-pussy-riot-church-official-says/

With spokesmen like these, who needs enemies?


The article I saw did not say anything about private Divine Revelations.
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=9113

Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: akimori makoto on July 23, 2012, 09:57:30 PM
If they had done this in a mosque, as Liza joked about, they probably would have had their heads removed with a dull kitchen knife.

But, of course, they would not have.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: GTAsoldier on July 30, 2012, 12:47:44 PM
Pussy Riot has pled not guilty (http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/30/world/europe/russia-pussy-riot-trial/index.html?iref=allsearch) to all the charges

Quote
Moscow (CNN) -- Three members of the Russian punk rock band Pussy Riot pleaded not guilty Monday to charges of hooliganism after performing a song criticizing President Vladimir Putin in a Moscow church, Russia's state news agency reported.

The charge, which carries a potential seven-year sentence, stems from an unusual performance they gave in February.

"Mother Mary please drive Putin away," the band screamed, their faces covered in neon masks, inside Moscow's Christ Savior Cathedral.

The anonymous, feminist protest band called it a punk prayer.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: mike on July 30, 2012, 01:06:11 PM
Glory to God!
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: stanley123 on July 30, 2012, 03:26:28 PM
Shameful, yes.

Punishable by seven years in prison, though?
Well in the USA you can get life in prison (actually it is 25 years to life) for stealing one slice of pizza. What pussy riot girls did in a sacred Church seems a lot worse to me than for a hungy man to steal a slice of pizza.
http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Stealing-one-slice-of-pizza-results-in-life-3150629.php
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: NicholasMyra on July 30, 2012, 03:31:13 PM
Shameful, yes.

Punishable by seven years in prison, though?
Well in the USA you can get life in prison (actually it is 25 years to life) for stealing one slice of pizza. What pussy riot girls did in a sacred Church seems a lot worse to me than for a hungy man to steal a slice of pizza.
Two wrongs make a right.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: FantaLimon on August 03, 2012, 04:55:24 PM
This is incredibly disheartening for me.  I speak highly of Orthodoxy to my friends.  For what could I say to them about this?  I agree what they did is shameful and obnoxious but by calling for blood you are fulfilling their prophecy.  That Putin is corrupting the minds of the Church.

Perhaps they do not understand the sacredness of the altar, but perhaps they believe in turn the altar is held captive by insidious political forces, not their mischief.

These girls have been jailed for all this time, and not given a fair trial.  How is this justice?  This charade is damaging the image of the Church, and instead of the Church embracing this women there is a witch trial.

My point is I find what has happened indefensible.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Bigsinner on August 03, 2012, 05:14:08 PM
Why would you stand up for a few punks acting inappropriately inside of a Church? Sure, they should not be in prison for any longer than a day, but why protest over them and go through all of this trouble?

1) Because there should be justice for all people, not just for the ones we like.
2) Because no injustice should happen in the name of the Orthodox Church.
emphasis added

^ This ^   :angel:
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: mike on August 03, 2012, 05:32:22 PM
Perhaps they do not understand the sacredness of the altar,

They do. They did not enter it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: HabteSelassie on August 03, 2012, 06:57:53 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I love how serious news reporters keep a straight-laced approach when reporting on this situation and the band name ;)

In regards to the OP issue, seven years in prison? That is Taliban bad yo!!

When they did this same guerrilla gig stunt in Red Square the band was given a realistically small fine.  They probably assumed this sacreligious gig would receive similar punishment.  The Russian government is clearly pandering to the conservative Christian community, even if many Christians think several years in prison is a bit excessive a punishment.  I pray these ladies receive a reasonable punishment, even a few months in jail seems excessive.  I am as Orthodox as anyone, and if some local sort-of-punk band broke into our parish and performed a guerrilla street gig in front of our Altar, I would be crucially offended.  However, I wouldn't let anger overpower sensible judgement, and I wouldn't want that band to have to serve jail time for what is realistically a faux pas more than a crime :(

As a note of bias, I am a guerrilla street performer, so I support and relate to street music when performed illegally.  You have to be ready to straight RUN so you keep all your gear ready to pack up in an instant, it is a very nervous but rewarding experience to share music with people where music isn't expected.  Further, in this iPod era, it is nice to put live and actual music into people's daily routines, so that we can all share a musical moment together.  However, in a sacred place like a Church or even a synagogue or a mosque, this is blatantly flippant.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: FantaLimon on August 03, 2012, 08:16:12 PM
I think if I went to liturgy and they jumped up there I might just tackle them.  But I would think them foolish (if not disrespectful) kids, not criminals, do you follow?  They seem to be caught under the thumb of an oppressive regime, not receiving the full extent of a just law under a fair trail.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: akimori makoto on August 03, 2012, 09:12:38 PM
When they did this same guerrilla gig stunt in Red Square the band was given a realistically small fine. They probably assumed this sacreligious gig would receive similar punishment.

Which is precisely why the same sentence would not be appropriate in this second instance.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: akimori makoto on August 03, 2012, 09:13:16 PM
Pussy Riot has pled not guilty (http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/30/world/europe/russia-pussy-riot-trial/index.html?iref=allsearch) to all the charges

Quote
Moscow (CNN) -- Three members of the Russian punk rock band Pussy Riot pleaded not guilty Monday to charges of hooliganism after performing a song criticizing President Vladimir Putin in a Moscow church, Russia's state news agency reported.

The charge, which carries a potential seven-year sentence, stems from an unusual performance they gave in February.

"Mother Mary please drive Putin away," the band screamed, their faces covered in neon masks, inside Moscow's Christ Savior Cathedral.

The anonymous, feminist protest band called it a punk prayer.

Nice contrition and remorse, there.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: HabteSelassie on August 03, 2012, 09:15:39 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

When they did this same guerrilla gig stunt in Red Square the band was given a realistically small fine. They probably assumed this sacreligious gig would receive similar punishment.

Which is precisely why the same sentence would not be appropriate in this second instance.

I agree with that completely, so something like a heavier fine, or court-order probation, or even a few months in jail at the worst, but seven to ten years in prison? Seriously? Those are football numbers!


stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: orthonorm on August 03, 2012, 09:19:02 PM
Pussy Riot has pled not guilty (http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/30/world/europe/russia-pussy-riot-trial/index.html?iref=allsearch) to all the charges

Quote
Moscow (CNN) -- Three members of the Russian punk rock band Pussy Riot pleaded not guilty Monday to charges of hooliganism after performing a song criticizing President Vladimir Putin in a Moscow church, Russia's state news agency reported.

The charge, which carries a potential seven-year sentence, stems from an unusual performance they gave in February.

"Mother Mary please drive Putin away," the band screamed, their faces covered in neon masks, inside Moscow's Christ Savior Cathedral.

The anonymous, feminist protest band called it a punk prayer.

Nice contrition and remorse, there.

Are we in politics?

Darn.

Oh well, I'll wait till I can take you to task yet again there.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: orthonorm on August 03, 2012, 09:21:05 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

When they did this same guerrilla gig stunt in Red Square the band was given a realistically small fine. They probably assumed this sacreligious gig would receive similar punishment.

Which is precisely why the same sentence would not be appropriate in this second instance.

I agree with that completely, so something like a heavier fine, or court-order probation, or even a few months in jail at the worst, but seven to ten years in prison? Seriously? Those are football numbers!


stay blessed,
habte selassie

This is a complete joke. Like in the sad type. Not the funny kind.

Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: HabteSelassie on August 04, 2012, 02:05:16 AM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!






This is a complete joke. Like in the sad type. Not the funny kind.

Excuse me, but what do you mean exactly?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Nigula Qian Zishi on August 04, 2012, 01:31:58 PM
Russian President Vladimir Putin is asking a court to show leniency for three members of the punk rock band Pussy Riot, who are on trial in Moscow on hooliganism charges.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/03/world/europe/russia-pussy-riot-trial/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/03/world/europe/russia-pussy-riot-trial/index.html)

While Putin criticized their performance, he said Thursday, "Still, I do not think they should be judged too harshly for that," RIA Novosti reported. He added that he hoped the court makes "the right decision."
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: mike on August 04, 2012, 01:42:07 PM
Yeah. Like he does not control the courts...
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Fr. Deacon Daniel on August 05, 2012, 12:15:31 PM
I wonder what this group was thinking? Obviously, the justice system is very different in Russia. Were they that naive to think that they could pull off this kind of stunt, which was very offensive and blasphemous and not face the consequences? I also don't know why there is so much animosity towards MP. It is not the MP who decides the sentence; it is the court. So instead of making derogatory comments against the Holy Russian Patriarchate why not focus your anger and/or frustration on the Russian justice system. The Holy Orthodox Church in Russia has made tremendous strides under Putin. I give thanks to God that he has supported the Church and continues to do so.

Quote
Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Pan Michał on August 05, 2012, 12:33:14 PM
I wonder what this group was thinking? Obviously, the justice system is very different in Russia. Were they that naive to think that they could pull off this kind of stunt, which was very offensive and blasphemous and not face the consequences? I also don't know why there is so much animosity towards MP. It is not the MP who decides the sentence; it is the court. So instead of making derogatory comments against the Holy Russian Patriarchate why not focus your anger and/or frustration on the Russian justice system. The Holy Orthodox Church in Russia has made tremendous strides under Putin. I give thanks to God that he has supported the Church and continues to do so.

A friend of mine has close contacts in Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and he told me what happened, but what was not released by media, at least in Poland, because when showed in a big picture the whole act turns out from "anti-Putin" to "ok-Putin", or at least "meh-Putin".

Those girls were catched by the security, pulled away, taken outside of the Church... And leaved free. But the girls instead of leaving the incident and go do other things went home and put everything on the internet, hoping that their "protest" will be seen by the world. It was. When Russians saw the video, the Moscow Patriarchate and Ministry of Internal Affairs was literally flooded wit petitions of Russians demanding finding and arresting those girls. And after this Putin decided to intervene.

So much for the "freedom fighters".
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: FantaLimon on August 05, 2012, 09:01:45 PM
So much for "Love the sinner, hate the sin."
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Pan Michał on August 06, 2012, 08:33:28 AM
So much for "Love the sinner, hate the sin."

I don't hate them. The same as I don't hate drunk drivers. Both did wrong because of their carelessness and should be treated without passion but according to their guilt.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: stanley123 on August 06, 2012, 08:41:48 PM
So much for "Love the sinner, hate the sin."
The Westboro Baptist Church has been told to keep a certain distance from funerals. Now if they refuse to do so and instead ferociously disrupt a funeral, causing lifelong grief and mental anguish to the relatives of the deceased, should we say let's all have love for those members of the Westboro Baptist Church who disrupted a peaceful funeral. After all, we need to forgive and to love our enemies, so let's forgive them and forget the incident and make sure they receive no punishment? Let us love the sinner. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Gunnarr on August 07, 2012, 01:55:10 AM
It is probably time to reinstate the laws against blasphemy as it was in the Roman Empire (in the East)
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: mike on August 07, 2012, 09:42:31 AM
It is probably time to reinstate the laws against blasphemy as it was in the Roman Empire (in the East)

Lord, forbade!
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Schultz on August 07, 2012, 09:45:32 AM
So much for "Love the sinner, hate the sin."

I don't hate them. The same as I don't hate drunk drivers. Both did wrong because of their carelessness and should be treated without passion but according to their guilt.

A possible 7 year prison sentence is passionless?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Pan Michał on August 07, 2012, 10:03:29 AM
A possible 7 year prison sentence is passionless?

If it were 7 hours would it be more passionless? Is time a measure?

Either be obedient to the law, or change it. Do not break it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Schultz on August 07, 2012, 10:09:47 AM
A possible 7 year prison sentence is passionless?

If it were 7 hours would it be more passionless? Is time a measure?

Either be obedient to the law, or change it. Do not break it.

Sometimes one must break the law in order to point out that a law is unjust.  

A seven year prison sentence for what amounts to disturbing the peace is not only unjust, but it will also put these women in an environment where the only thing they will learn is resentment, hatred, and possibly other more violent criminal behavior.

But your keep your head buried in the sand to the consequences of an over-eager "justice" system that will punish a bunch of teenagers for blasphemy but let the real blasphemers (aka the politicians) receive communion without batting an eyelash.  
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Pan Michał on August 07, 2012, 10:30:52 AM
Sometimes one must break the law in order to point out that a law is unjust.  

And he must know the consequences. They did not break the law to fight Putin. The've break the law in the most cynical way, using what's sacred for most of the Russians to fight Putin, thus protecting themselves from moral opinions of every side.

A seven year prison sentence for what amounts to disturbing the peace is not only unjust, but it will also put these women in an environment where the only thing they will learn is resentment, hatred, and possibly other more violent criminal behavior.

Will it be just to let them out, in spite of what Russian citizens asked their head of a gouvernement?

We put robbers in jail, where there is resentment, hatred and possibly other more violent criminal behavior, yet I don't hear of anyone complaining about it. Do you?

But your keep your head buried in the sand to the consequences of an over-eager "justice" system that will punish a bunch of teenagers for blasphemy but let the real blasphemers (aka the politicians) receive communion without batting an eyelash.  

I know exactly what's the case - if it were Putin that would enter a parish in his car, it would be tremendous sacrilege done by an inhuman being. Yet, since it was bunch of girls who purportedly broke the law to fight Putin, they are persecuted innocents, or "bunch of teenagers" at best.

Take your petty wallet thieves out of jail and persecute real robbers (aka the politicians).

What's over-eager, the law that says that if someone does an act of wounding of religious feelings (NOT a blasphemy, despite what you write), restricted by penalty, he may be persecuted by law? Did you forget that they have not only made a circus in a church, but also made calls like "Putin get out", public offending of a head of a country, which is a crime not only in Russia, but in Poland, Germany, France, USA, and so forth? And those TWO crimes MAY sent them to jail for UP TO 7 years?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Schultz on August 07, 2012, 10:38:42 AM
Sometimes one must break the law in order to point out that a law is unjust.  

And he must know the consequences. They did not break the law to fight Putin. The've break the law in the most cynical way, using what's sacred for most of the Russians to fight Putin, thus protecting themselves from moral opinions of every side.

Bull.
Quote
A seven year prison sentence for what amounts to disturbing the peace is not only unjust, but it will also put these women in an environment where the only thing they will learn is resentment, hatred, and possibly other more violent criminal behavior.

Will it be just to let them out, in spite of what Russian citizens asked their head of a gouvernement?

No said let them out.  Punishment should be commensurate with the crime. 

Quote
We put robbers in jail, where there is resentment, hatred and possibly other more violent criminal behavior, yet I don't hear of anyone complaining about it. Do you?

Robbery is, by its nature, a violent act against another human being. 

Political speech is not. 

Quote
But your keep your head buried in the sand to the consequences of an over-eager "justice" system that will punish a bunch of teenagers for blasphemy but let the real blasphemers (aka the politicians) receive communion without batting an eyelash.  

I know exactly what's the case - if it were Putin that would enter a parish in his car, it would be tremendous sacrilege done by an inhuman being. Yet, since it was bunch of girls who purportedly broke the law to fight Putin, they are persecuted innocents, or "bunch of teenagers" at best.

Take your petty wallet thieves out of jail and persecute real robbers (aka the politicians).

What's over-eager, the law that says that if someone does an act of wounding of religious feelings (NOT a blasphemy, despite what you write), restricted by penalty, he may be persecuted by law? Did you forget that they have not only made a circus in a church, but also made calls like "Putin get out", public offending of a head of a country, which is a crime not only in Russia, but in Poland, Germany, France, USA, and so forth? And those TWO crimes MAY sent them to jail for UP TO 7 years?
[/quote]
It is certainly not against the law in the United States, nor, I suspect in Germany or France, to call for the resignation of an elected official. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Pan Michał on August 07, 2012, 10:48:28 AM
Bull.

Pity to see you give up in a semi vulgar way. But whatever.

No said let them out.  Punishment should be commensurate with the crime.

Which is?


Robbery is, by its nature, a violent act against another human being.  

Political speech is not.

And publicly offending a head of a state is, by it's nature, a crime restricted by law.

It is certainly not against the law in the United States, nor, I suspect in Germany or France, to call for the resignation of an elected official.  

Call for the resignation? You ever read their lyrics? Or just hypothetyzing?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Schultz on August 07, 2012, 10:58:41 AM
Bull.

Pity to see you give up in a semi vulgar way. But whatever.

I've made my point.  I'm not a troll.

No said let them out.  Punishment should be commensurate with the crime.

Which is?
[/quote]

Something akin to community service, perhaps even in service to the cathedral grounds.  Note, I'm not saying they nothing wrong.  I'm just saying that putting people in prison for an extended period of time for what amounts to political speech is ridiculous and dangerous.

Quote
Robbery is, by its nature, a violent act against another human being.  

Political speech is not.

And publicly offending a head of a state is, by it's nature, a crime restricted by law.

Maybe in the little totalitarian state you live in, but not in a free society.  But, again, not the point.  Putting non-violent offenders in prison with violent ones rarely amounts to any good.

It is certainly not against the law in the United States, nor, I suspect in Germany or France, to call for the resignation of an elected official.  


Quote
Call for the resignation? You ever read their lyrics? Or just hypothetyzing?

I actually have read their lyrics.  There is nothing in them that shocks me, but then my head isn't buried in the sand regarding the political and social implications of putting a bunch of teenage girls in prison for seven years for saying, "Hey, we don't like you!  Piss off!"

But I suppose an immature society will act immaturely when it comes to dealing with immaturity.

And with that, I've said my piece.  If you want to continue to argue with yourself, go right ahead, but I'm done for the moment.

Just remember this thread when the day comes when you being a Christian is offensive to the head of whatever state you choose to live in.  That day is coming, regardless of how quickly some members of the Russian church want to glorify Putin once his time on earth ends.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Pan Michał on August 07, 2012, 11:06:55 AM
Something akin to community service, perhaps even in service to the cathedral grounds.  Note, I'm not saying they nothing wrong.  I'm just saying that putting people in prison for an extended period of time for what amounts to political speech is ridiculous and dangerous.

For you it's political speech. For the Russians it was not.

Putting someone who stole a wallet to jail is also ridiculous and dangerous. Gouvernement pays the victim money (or not), and thief goes to jail. Yet we do it.

Maybe in the little totalitarian state you live in, but not in a free society.  But, again, not the point.  Putting non-violent offenders in prison with violent ones rarely amounts to any good.

Non violent pocket robbers could agree, too.


I actually have read their lyrics.  There is nothing in them that shocks me, but then my head isn't buried in the sand regarding the political and social implications of putting a bunch of teenage girls in prison for seven years for saying, "Hey, we don't like you!  Piss off!"

So I understand that calling a patriarch "b*tch" is also political manifest and should not be persecuted, or just by social works, at best?


But I suppose an immature society will act immaturely when it comes to dealing with immaturity.

Funny. You defend judged girls, yet you judge millions of people.

And with that, I've said my piece.  If you want to continue to argue with yourself, go right ahead, but I'm done for the moment.

Just remember this thread when the day comes when you being a Christian is offensive to the head of whatever state you choose to live in.  That day is coming, regardless of how quickly some members of the Russian church want to glorify Putin once his time on earth ends.

Maybe in the little totalitarian state of mind you live in, but not in a free society.

End from my side, cause it's pointless.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: serb1389 on August 07, 2012, 04:05:33 PM
Do you all think that it's obligatory of Orthodox Christians to stand up to what they see as political wrongs?  Or even what they PERCEIVE as moral wrongs? 

Maybe that's a question for another thread...but it seems to me to be the main question out of the OP. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: NicholasMyra on August 07, 2012, 05:00:34 PM
The've break the law in the most cynical way, using what's sacred for most of the Russians to fight Putin
They performed illegally at a distillery?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Punch on August 07, 2012, 06:27:48 PM
A possible 7 year prison sentence is passionless?

Only if it is served at Black Dolphin.

Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Schultz on August 07, 2012, 06:45:02 PM
A possible 7 year prison sentence is passionless?

Only if it is served at Black Dolphin.



That's where all people who dare to speak ill of the head of state should be sent.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Gunnarr on August 07, 2012, 07:44:02 PM
IT WILL NOT EVEN BE 7 YEARS!

Prosecutors are asking for three years in jail.

Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: orthonorm on August 07, 2012, 08:04:46 PM
IT WILL NOT EVEN BE 7 YEARS!

Prosecutors are asking for three years in jail.



Ridiculous.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Alpo on August 08, 2012, 12:45:38 AM
He added that he hoped the court makes "the right decision."

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_FGhipZH7DII/TO1gyG3MzWI/AAAAAAAAGOU/iqpdowPYbE0/s400/putin.jpg)

A nice gesture from Putin though.
Title: Members Of Female Punk Band PUSSY RIOT On Trial For Church Protest
Post by: Vladik on August 08, 2012, 02:01:28 AM
MOSCOW - At the opening of their trial on charges of inciting religious hatred, three young women who performed a crude anti-Putin song on the altar of the Cathedral of Christ the Savior said on Monday that they were prepared to take responsibility for ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wQSzPx7Nhg
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Dalibor on August 08, 2012, 08:39:05 AM
It is clear that some people here are outraged not so much by heavy sentence for sacrilege but because Pussy Riot’s anti Putin propaganda has been cut short. They see that as a personal loss and attack on them since they have animosity towards Russia and ROC. That is what really bothers people here, political reasons. Had ‘Pussy Riot’ been protesting in temple against any other non political issue it would not have created such outrage in the West for this heavy sentencing.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: vamrat on August 08, 2012, 09:31:49 AM
A possible 7 year prison sentence is passionless?

Only if it is served at Black Dolphin.



That's where all people who dare to speak ill of the head of state should be sent.

If that head of state happens to be that most beneficent Emperor of Mankind, then yes.


Does anyone have any pictures of these Puss Riot meisies?  Are they at least hot?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: vamrat on August 08, 2012, 09:34:37 AM
Do you all think that it's obligatory of Orthodox Christians to stand up to what they see as political wrongs?  Or even what they PERCEIVE as moral wrongs? 

Maybe that's a question for another thread...but it seems to me to be the main question out of the OP. 

Probably is a question for another thread, and some interesting answers we would see.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Schultz on August 08, 2012, 09:35:44 AM
It is clear that some people here are outraged not so much by heavy sentence for sacrilege but because Pussy Riot’s anti Putin propaganda has been cut short. They see that as a personal loss and attack on them since they have animosity towards Russia and ROC. That is what really bothers people here, political reasons. Had ‘Pussy Riot’ been protesting in temple against any other non political issue it would not have created such outrage in the West for this heavy sentencing.

If Pussy Riot had not been protesting against Putin, the prosecution would not be looking for heavy sentencing.

You're damned right the outrage is because a bunch of girls are being sent to prison for non-violently speaking out against a government they find offensive and dangerous to their country.

Stalinism is alive and well in Russia and I weep for her future.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: ozgeorge on August 08, 2012, 10:08:26 AM
Russian President Vladimir Putin is asking a court to show leniency for three members of the punk rock band Pussy Riot, who are on trial in Moscow on hooliganism charges.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/03/world/europe/russia-pussy-riot-trial/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/03/world/europe/russia-pussy-riot-trial/index.html)

While Putin criticized their performance, he said Thursday, "Still, I do not think they should be judged too harshly for that," RIA Novosti reported. He added that he hoped the court makes "the right decision."

This shows a noble spirit on Putin's part. And for the record, I  think the members of the band also show a noble spirit with their statement in which they acknowledge they may have made an ethical mistake and apologise for any offence:

http://freepussyriot.org/content/art-and-human-manifesto-nadia-tolokonikovoy


Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Dalibor on August 08, 2012, 10:54:21 AM


If Pussy Riot had not been protesting against Putin, the prosecution would not be looking for heavy sentencing.


That is a biased statement.



You're damned right the outrage is because a bunch of girls are being sent to prison for non-violently speaking out against a government they find offensive and dangerous to their country.

Stalinism is alive and well in Russia and I weep for her future.


Please butt out of Russia’s internal affairs and weep for your own country. You have so much garbage in your own country to weep and be outraged for your whole life. Wherever your country meddled in there is a war and destruction. Russia is a beacon of hope against your tyranny.

Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Schultz on August 08, 2012, 11:35:47 AM


If Pussy Riot had not been protesting against Putin, the prosecution would not be looking for heavy sentencing.


That is a biased statement.

No, it's not.  The only reason these girls are being prosecuted to the extent that they are is because they are speaking out against the government in general and Putin in particular. 

Quote

You're damned right the outrage is because a bunch of girls are being sent to prison for non-violently speaking out against a government they find offensive and dangerous to their country.

Stalinism is alive and well in Russia and I weep for her future.


Please butt out of Russia’s internal affairs and weep for your own country. You have so much garbage in your own country to weep and be outraged for your whole life. Wherever your country meddled in there is a war and destruction. Russia is a beacon of hope against your tyranny.
[/quote]

I weep for my country daily.  I also weep for the oppressed everywhere no matter their nationality or ethnicity. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: jewish voice on August 08, 2012, 11:44:10 AM


If Pussy Riot had not been protesting against Putin, the prosecution would not be looking for heavy sentencing.


That is a biased statement.



You're damned right the outrage is because a bunch of girls are being sent to prison for non-violently speaking out against a government they find offensive and dangerous to their country.

Stalinism is alive and well in Russia and I weep for her future.


Please butt out of Russia’s internal affairs and weep for your own country. You have so much garbage in your own country to weep and be outraged for your whole life. Wherever your country meddled in there is a war and destruction. Russia is a beacon of hope against your tyranny.


You forgot your LOL at the end of your statement when you do that people think your being serious.
 
Anyways back on to the topic this is just silly to try and give them 3  years or 7 years is way over board. Thats what you get when you play with state ran churches. Orthodoxy in Russia= Orthodox Judaism in Israel pushing the little people around for their own greed and power all in the name of G-d and telling you it's for your own safety.  
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Νεκτάριος on August 08, 2012, 01:11:12 PM
Please butt out of Russia’s internal affairs and weep for your own country. You have so much garbage in your own country to weep and be outraged for your whole life. Wherever your country meddled in there is a war and destruction. Russia is a beacon of hope against your tyranny.

Well, I live within the canonical territory of the MP so this is ostensibly my internal affair. 

I think it is sad that the MP is using its cozy relationship with the Kremlin to silence dissent while bestowing its approbation on the Kremlin in a sort of symbiotic relationship - essentially the exact same relationship the MP has with the late Russian Empire.  Hopefully this time around people will simply ignore the Orthodox Church rather than shooting priests and blowing up churches. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: stanley123 on August 08, 2012, 02:17:09 PM
Please butt out of Russia’s internal affairs and weep for your own country. You have so much garbage in your own country to weep and be outraged for your whole life. Wherever your country meddled in there is a war and destruction. Russia is a beacon of hope against your tyranny.
I have to agree with this to some extent. Where is the protest in the USA when a hungry man is sentenced to life in prison for stealing a slice of pizza?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Pan Michał on August 08, 2012, 04:55:26 PM
Hi all, I've decided to post again, because I feel it is really needed, from my side at least. I wanted to write my apologies to everyone, and especially Schultz, for acting like a jerk. Stating one’s own opinions and attacks ad personam are completely different matters.

My original point was only to write about the other side of the coin, not say that those are things that I agree with, but somewhere I’ve lost a distance between this and myself and took it too seriously, which should not ever happen. In the outcome it looked like I am cheering with joy looking at someone going to jail, which is absolutely not the case, just wanted to state that what they did was illegal, or at least very unwise, in Russia and they should (and did) be ready for the consequences. But instead of stopping on this conclusion, I’ve decided to add my few cents of so-called “opinion”, thus later felt like being attacked and just attacked back, with passion but without thinking of what am I posting. So I’ve turned out to be not less unwise than those girls, in a way. I could find some excuses as to why I’ve been so nervous about it, and blame the “bad day” and so forth, but my lack of distance was the only reason, so I am to blame.

In my homeland, a man brought before court for trampling the monstrance with the Body of Christ, was set free, after returning money for destroyed monstrance, because the advocate and jury agreed on that if God Himself is feeling offended, He should carry out the justice Himself. And it was in the XVI century, when all of Europe burned with religious wars and trials. With this I would want to end this on my side, and post again my apologies.

Again, everyone and Schultz especially, I am sorry for my unhealthy behavior.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Punch on August 08, 2012, 11:01:57 PM


If Pussy Riot had not been protesting against Putin, the prosecution would not be looking for heavy sentencing.


That is a biased statement.



You're damned right the outrage is because a bunch of girls are being sent to prison for non-violently speaking out against a government they find offensive and dangerous to their country.

Stalinism is alive and well in Russia and I weep for her future.


Please butt out of Russia’s internal affairs and weep for your own country. You have so much garbage in your own country to weep and be outraged for your whole life. Wherever your country meddled in there is a war and destruction. Russia is a beacon of hope against your tyranny.



Amen, amen, and amen.  While we weep for a bunch of radicals, how many women and children do our soldiers continue to kill.  What is their sentence?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: NicholasMyra on August 09, 2012, 01:56:33 AM
Russia is a beacon of hope against your tyranny.
Russia will fall like the rest of the princes of this world.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Shiny on August 09, 2012, 01:59:09 AM
Please butt out of Russia’s internal affairs and weep for your own country. You have so much garbage in your own country to weep and be outraged for your whole life. Wherever your country meddled in there is a war and destruction. Russia is a beacon of hope against your tyranny.

POTY

Never stop posting.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: NicholasMyra on August 09, 2012, 02:00:20 AM
Where is the protest in the USA when a hungry man is sentenced to life in prison for stealing a slice of pizza?
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/138/244/funny-barack-michelle-obama-face.jpg?1308706785)
What
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: NicholasMyra on August 09, 2012, 02:00:36 AM
Please butt out of Russia’s internal affairs and weep for your own country. You have so much garbage in your own country to weep and be outraged for your whole life. Wherever your country meddled in there is a war and destruction. Russia is a beacon of hope against your tyranny.

POTY

Never stop posting.
Dude really Achronos?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: stanley123 on August 09, 2012, 03:19:41 AM
Where is the protest in the USA when a hungry man is sentenced to life in prison for stealing a slice of pizza?
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/138/244/funny-barack-michelle-obama-face.jpg?1308706785)
What
The hungry American may get only 25 years for stealing a slice of pizza. But it is not sure. The punishment is from 25 years to life in prison for a hungry American who stole a slice of pizza in the USA. And where is the protest? People only want to protest against Russia and call Russia the number one geopolitical enemy of the USA as Romney has. Let's have a photo of Romney demonizing Russia as he has, not so much Obama who I believe has shown good intentions toward Russia.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: Asteriktos on August 09, 2012, 03:30:07 AM
People only want to protest against Russia and call Russia the number one geopolitical enemy of the USA as Romney has. Let's have a photo of Romney demonizing Russia as he has, not so much Obama who I believe has shown good intentions toward Russia.

I just made a pic for this, but realised I can't post it because it's not in politics.  >:(
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on August 09, 2012, 08:03:03 AM
Hi all, I've decided to post again, because I feel it is really needed, from my side at least. I wanted to write my apologies to everyone, and especially Schultz, for acting like a jerk. Stating one’s own opinions and attacks ad personam are completely different matters.

My original point was only to write about the other side of the coin, not say that those are things that I agree with, but somewhere I’ve lost a distance between this and myself and took it too seriously, which should not ever happen. In the outcome it looked like I am cheering with joy looking at someone going to jail, which is absolutely not the case, just wanted to state that what they did was illegal, or at least very unwise, in Russia and they should (and did) be ready for the consequences. But instead of stopping on this conclusion, I’ve decided to add my few cents of so-called “opinion”, thus later felt like being attacked and just attacked back, with passion but without thinking of what am I posting. So I’ve turned out to be not less unwise than those girls, in a way. I could find some excuses as to why I’ve been so nervous about it, and blame the “bad day” and so forth, but my lack of distance was the only reason, so I am to blame.

In my homeland, a man brought before court for trampling the monstrance with the Body of Christ, was set free, after returning money for destroyed monstrance, because the advocate and jury agreed on that if God Himself is feeling offended, He should carry out the justice Himself. And it was in the XVI century, when all of Europe burned with religious wars and trials. With this I would want to end this on my side, and post again my apologies.

Again, everyone and Schultz especially, I am sorry for my unhealthy behavior.

Thank you Pan Michael and welcome back.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Kerdy on August 09, 2012, 08:29:13 AM
Personally, I believe anyone who disgraces a religious building or place to make a political statement should be charged.  There are a limitless amount of other ways available rather than parading around like a bunch of morons inside a church, synagogue, or the like.  To obtain respect, it must first be given.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Kerdy on August 09, 2012, 08:39:48 AM
Reading through all the posts it seems people forget these women knew the consequences of their actions, but did their deed regardless.  Now they are seeking sympathy.  It doesn't matter if we think their sentence is too harsh, these are the laws in Russia.  They aren't confused tourists. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: mike on August 09, 2012, 12:05:44 PM
Does anyone have any pictures of these Puss Riot meisies?  Are they at least hot?

How boorishly...
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Νεκτάριος on August 09, 2012, 04:22:03 PM
Reading through all the posts it seems people forget these women knew the consequences of their actions, but did their deed regardless.  Now they are seeking sympathy.  It doesn't matter if we think their sentence is too harsh, these are the laws in Russia.  They aren't confused tourists. 

In Russia there isn't law in the sense that there is in the West.  Rule of law simply doesn't exist.  As has been mentioned before, the idea of charging them with hooliganism is absurd and likely illegal.  But as the courts systems aren't independent it is hard to predict these sorts of matters.  There are a lot of things going around the Russian internet about people who have committed real crimes, I mean with actual victims left in severe physical anguish or dead, that have gotten off with less than seven years. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Νεκτάριος on August 14, 2012, 04:37:49 PM
The latest (http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/08/14/if_youre_a_priest_with_a_sports_car_try_not_to_crash_it) from Holy Rus':

An Orthodox priest who endorses the jailing of the Pussy Riot group of Russian activists has crashed a BMW Z4 roadster with diplomatic licence plates into two cars in Moscow, raising new questions about the lifestyle of the country's clergy.

Alexei Podobedov – also known as Igumen Timofei – collided with the vehicles on the evening of July 31, but details of the accident only emerged this week.

The BMW sports car the priest was driving had Maltese diplomatic number plates and he told police it belonged to a friend. Reports that Mr Podobedov, 38, was inebriated, were strenuously denied by his lawyer.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Kerdy on August 14, 2012, 05:18:38 PM
The latest (http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/08/14/if_youre_a_priest_with_a_sports_car_try_not_to_crash_it) from Holy Rus':

An Orthodox priest who endorses the jailing of the Pussy Riot group of Russian activists has crashed a BMW Z4 roadster with diplomatic licence plates into two cars in Moscow, raising new questions about the lifestyle of the country's clergy.

Alexei Podobedov – also known as Igumen Timofei – collided with the vehicles on the evening of July 31, but details of the accident only emerged this week.

The BMW sports car the priest was driving had Maltese diplomatic number plates and he told police it belonged to a friend. Reports that Mr Podobedov, 38, was inebriated, were strenuously denied by his lawyer.
Unrelated.  These two incidents have nothing to do with one another.  Also, without all the information available, its a bit premature to post this with any expectation of guilt for more than poor driving.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: serb1389 on August 14, 2012, 05:22:54 PM
The latest (http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/08/14/if_youre_a_priest_with_a_sports_car_try_not_to_crash_it) from Holy Rus':

An Orthodox priest who endorses the jailing of the Pussy Riot group of Russian activists has crashed a BMW Z4 roadster with diplomatic licence plates into two cars in Moscow, raising new questions about the lifestyle of the country's clergy.

Alexei Podobedov – also known as Igumen Timofei – collided with the vehicles on the evening of July 31, but details of the accident only emerged this week.

The BMW sports car the priest was driving had Maltese diplomatic number plates and he told police it belonged to a friend. Reports that Mr Podobedov, 38, was inebriated, were strenuously denied by his lawyer.
Unrelated.  These two incidents have nothing to do with one another.  Also, without all the information available, its a bit premature to post this with any expectation of guilt for more than poor driving.

You know...at first I thought the same thing, but afterwards I realized that this priest is against the Pussy Riot girls, has been arrested for at the very least destructive driving.  So when the church says that these girls are a danger to society...what does that make this priest then? 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Kerdy on August 14, 2012, 05:27:54 PM
The latest (http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/08/14/if_youre_a_priest_with_a_sports_car_try_not_to_crash_it) from Holy Rus':

An Orthodox priest who endorses the jailing of the Pussy Riot group of Russian activists has crashed a BMW Z4 roadster with diplomatic licence plates into two cars in Moscow, raising new questions about the lifestyle of the country's clergy.

Alexei Podobedov – also known as Igumen Timofei – collided with the vehicles on the evening of July 31, but details of the accident only emerged this week.

The BMW sports car the priest was driving had Maltese diplomatic number plates and he told police it belonged to a friend. Reports that Mr Podobedov, 38, was inebriated, were strenuously denied by his lawyer.
Unrelated.  These two incidents have nothing to do with one another.  Also, without all the information available, its a bit premature to post this with any expectation of guilt for more than poor driving.

You know...at first I thought the same thing, but afterwards I realized that this priest is against the Pussy Riot girls, has been arrested for at the very least destructive driving.  So when the church says that these girls are a danger to society...what does that make this priest then?  
Someone who needs to take the bus.

Don't get me wrong, if he broke a law he should be punished, but we don't know that yet.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Νεκτάριος on August 14, 2012, 05:28:34 PM
The latest (http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/08/14/if_youre_a_priest_with_a_sports_car_try_not_to_crash_it) from Holy Rus':

An Orthodox priest who endorses the jailing of the Pussy Riot group of Russian activists has crashed a BMW Z4 roadster with diplomatic licence plates into two cars in Moscow, raising new questions about the lifestyle of the country's clergy.

Alexei Podobedov – also known as Igumen Timofei – collided with the vehicles on the evening of July 31, but details of the accident only emerged this week.

The BMW sports car the priest was driving had Maltese diplomatic number plates and he told police it belonged to a friend. Reports that Mr Podobedov, 38, was inebriated, were strenuously denied by his lawyer.
Unrelated.  These two incidents have nothing to do with one another.  Also, without all the information available, its a bit premature to post this with any expectation of guilt for more than poor driving.

You know...at first I thought the same thing, but afterwards I realized that this priest is against the Pussy Riot girls, has been arrested for at the very least destructive driving.  So when the church says that these girls are a danger to society...what does that make this priest then? 

Right, this man is an actual danger to society and very likely had some sort of illegal registration on this car.  For well-connected people this is common and lets the traffic police know that they shouldn't go after such cars for bribes (instead the average Russian making a few hundred dollars a months should be preyed upon).  The issue gets at the moral bankruptcy of the MP.  A few dissidents who committed a relatively innocuous offense are likely going to spend many years in jail with the the Patriarch cheering on this decision of the court and further calling for no mercy to be shown to these girls.  On the other hand the inner circle of the MP live a criminal lifestyle and nothing is done about it.  
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Kerdy on August 14, 2012, 05:40:31 PM
The latest (http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/08/14/if_youre_a_priest_with_a_sports_car_try_not_to_crash_it) from Holy Rus':

An Orthodox priest who endorses the jailing of the Pussy Riot group of Russian activists has crashed a BMW Z4 roadster with diplomatic licence plates into two cars in Moscow, raising new questions about the lifestyle of the country's clergy.

Alexei Podobedov – also known as Igumen Timofei – collided with the vehicles on the evening of July 31, but details of the accident only emerged this week.

The BMW sports car the priest was driving had Maltese diplomatic number plates and he told police it belonged to a friend. Reports that Mr Podobedov, 38, was inebriated, were strenuously denied by his lawyer.
Unrelated.  These two incidents have nothing to do with one another.  Also, without all the information available, its a bit premature to post this with any expectation of guilt for more than poor driving.

You know...at first I thought the same thing, but afterwards I realized that this priest is against the Pussy Riot girls, has been arrested for at the very least destructive driving.  So when the church says that these girls are a danger to society...what does that make this priest then? 

Right, this man is an actual danger to society and very likely had some sort of illegal registration on this car.  For well-connected people this is common and lets the traffic police know that they shouldn't go after such cars for bribes (instead the average Russian making a few hundred dollars a months should be preyed upon).  The issue gets at the moral bankruptcy of the MP.  A few dissidents who committed a relatively innocuous offense are likely going to spend many years in jail with the the Patriarch cheering on this decision of the court and further calling for no mercy to be shown to these girls.  On the other hand the inner circle of the MP live a criminal lifestyle and nothing is done about it.  
Even if all of your guessing is remotely accurate, these are still separate incidents.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Νεκτάριος on August 14, 2012, 05:46:12 PM
The latest (http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/08/14/if_youre_a_priest_with_a_sports_car_try_not_to_crash_it) from Holy Rus':

An Orthodox priest who endorses the jailing of the Pussy Riot group of Russian activists has crashed a BMW Z4 roadster with diplomatic licence plates into two cars in Moscow, raising new questions about the lifestyle of the country's clergy.

Alexei Podobedov – also known as Igumen Timofei – collided with the vehicles on the evening of July 31, but details of the accident only emerged this week.

The BMW sports car the priest was driving had Maltese diplomatic number plates and he told police it belonged to a friend. Reports that Mr Podobedov, 38, was inebriated, were strenuously denied by his lawyer.
Unrelated.  These two incidents have nothing to do with one another.  Also, without all the information available, its a bit premature to post this with any expectation of guilt for more than poor driving.

You know...at first I thought the same thing, but afterwards I realized that this priest is against the Pussy Riot girls, has been arrested for at the very least destructive driving.  So when the church says that these girls are a danger to society...what does that make this priest then? 

Right, this man is an actual danger to society and very likely had some sort of illegal registration on this car.  For well-connected people this is common and lets the traffic police know that they shouldn't go after such cars for bribes (instead the average Russian making a few hundred dollars a months should be preyed upon).  The issue gets at the moral bankruptcy of the MP.  A few dissidents who committed a relatively innocuous offense are likely going to spend many years in jail with the the Patriarch cheering on this decision of the court and further calling for no mercy to be shown to these girls.  On the other hand the inner circle of the MP live a criminal lifestyle and nothing is done about it.  
Even if all of your guessing is remotely accurate, these are still separate incidents.

No they aren't - when you public call for no mercy to be shown to people and then are involved in criminal acts yourself there is a problem. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Kerdy on August 14, 2012, 05:55:04 PM
The latest (http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/08/14/if_youre_a_priest_with_a_sports_car_try_not_to_crash_it) from Holy Rus':

An Orthodox priest who endorses the jailing of the Pussy Riot group of Russian activists has crashed a BMW Z4 roadster with diplomatic licence plates into two cars in Moscow, raising new questions about the lifestyle of the country's clergy.

Alexei Podobedov – also known as Igumen Timofei – collided with the vehicles on the evening of July 31, but details of the accident only emerged this week.

The BMW sports car the priest was driving had Maltese diplomatic number plates and he told police it belonged to a friend. Reports that Mr Podobedov, 38, was inebriated, were strenuously denied by his lawyer.
Unrelated.  These two incidents have nothing to do with one another.  Also, without all the information available, its a bit premature to post this with any expectation of guilt for more than poor driving.

You know...at first I thought the same thing, but afterwards I realized that this priest is against the Pussy Riot girls, has been arrested for at the very least destructive driving.  So when the church says that these girls are a danger to society...what does that make this priest then? 

Right, this man is an actual danger to society and very likely had some sort of illegal registration on this car.  For well-connected people this is common and lets the traffic police know that they shouldn't go after such cars for bribes (instead the average Russian making a few hundred dollars a months should be preyed upon).  The issue gets at the moral bankruptcy of the MP.  A few dissidents who committed a relatively innocuous offense are likely going to spend many years in jail with the the Patriarch cheering on this decision of the court and further calling for no mercy to be shown to these girls.  On the other hand the inner circle of the MP live a criminal lifestyle and nothing is done about it.  
Even if all of your guessing is remotely accurate, these are still separate incidents.

No they aren't - when you public call for no mercy to be shown to people and then are involved in criminal acts yourself there is a problem. 
I didn't say there was no problem, I said they are unrelated, legally.  If a man is accused of cheating on his wife and her brother spray paints his car saying he is having an affair, these are two separate incidents.  One, he's a cheating scumbag.  Two, her brother damaged private property.  Each must be handled individually.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Νεκτάριος on August 14, 2012, 06:03:53 PM
The latest (http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/08/14/if_youre_a_priest_with_a_sports_car_try_not_to_crash_it) from Holy Rus':

An Orthodox priest who endorses the jailing of the Pussy Riot group of Russian activists has crashed a BMW Z4 roadster with diplomatic licence plates into two cars in Moscow, raising new questions about the lifestyle of the country's clergy.

Alexei Podobedov – also known as Igumen Timofei – collided with the vehicles on the evening of July 31, but details of the accident only emerged this week.

The BMW sports car the priest was driving had Maltese diplomatic number plates and he told police it belonged to a friend. Reports that Mr Podobedov, 38, was inebriated, were strenuously denied by his lawyer.
Unrelated.  These two incidents have nothing to do with one another.  Also, without all the information available, its a bit premature to post this with any expectation of guilt for more than poor driving.

You know...at first I thought the same thing, but afterwards I realized that this priest is against the Pussy Riot girls, has been arrested for at the very least destructive driving.  So when the church says that these girls are a danger to society...what does that make this priest then? 

Right, this man is an actual danger to society and very likely had some sort of illegal registration on this car.  For well-connected people this is common and lets the traffic police know that they shouldn't go after such cars for bribes (instead the average Russian making a few hundred dollars a months should be preyed upon).  The issue gets at the moral bankruptcy of the MP.  A few dissidents who committed a relatively innocuous offense are likely going to spend many years in jail with the the Patriarch cheering on this decision of the court and further calling for no mercy to be shown to these girls.  On the other hand the inner circle of the MP live a criminal lifestyle and nothing is done about it.  
Even if all of your guessing is remotely accurate, these are still separate incidents.

No they aren't - when you public call for no mercy to be shown to people and then are involved in criminal acts yourself there is a problem. 
I didn't say there was no problem, I said they are unrelated, legally.  If a man is accused of cheating on his wife and her brother spray paints his car saying he is having an affair, these are two separate incidents.  One, he's a cheating scumbag.  Two, her brother damaged private property.  Each must be handled individually.

I'm seeing this in the larger picture: the inner circle of the MP live flashy lives devoid of any external asceticism and in some cases are outright morally dubious.  Any criticism of this within Russian society is blunted and called anti-Christian.  Yet the MP takes his political opponents to court and ruins them.  Or in the case of his neighbor (in an apartment this is also of questionable legality) took him to court, said to the press "it is not possible to forgive" and demanded hundreds of thousands of rubles over dust.  It might seem strange to someone outside of this society, but this case is just yet another example of the "Church" living like oligarchs by one standard, and the rest us living by a different, cruel standard. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: sheenj on August 14, 2012, 06:04:40 PM
The latest (http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/08/14/if_youre_a_priest_with_a_sports_car_try_not_to_crash_it) from Holy Rus':

An Orthodox priest who endorses the jailing of the Pussy Riot group of Russian activists has crashed a BMW Z4 roadster with diplomatic licence plates into two cars in Moscow, raising new questions about the lifestyle of the country's clergy.

Alexei Podobedov – also known as Igumen Timofei – collided with the vehicles on the evening of July 31, but details of the accident only emerged this week.

The BMW sports car the priest was driving had Maltese diplomatic number plates and he told police it belonged to a friend. Reports that Mr Podobedov, 38, was inebriated, were strenuously denied by his lawyer.
Unrelated.  These two incidents have nothing to do with one another.  Also, without all the information available, its a bit premature to post this with any expectation of guilt for more than poor driving.

You know...at first I thought the same thing, but afterwards I realized that this priest is against the Pussy Riot girls, has been arrested for at the very least destructive driving.  So when the church says that these girls are a danger to society...what does that make this priest then?  

Right, this man is an actual danger to society and very likely had some sort of illegal registration on this car.  For well-connected people this is common and lets the traffic police know that they shouldn't go after such cars for bribes (instead the average Russian making a few hundred dollars a months should be preyed upon).  The issue gets at the moral bankruptcy of the MP.  A few dissidents who committed a relatively innocuous offense are likely going to spend many years in jail with the the Patriarch cheering on this decision of the court and further calling for no mercy to be shown to these girls.  On the other hand the inner circle of the MP live a criminal lifestyle and nothing is done about it.  
Even if all of your guessing is remotely accurate, these are still separate incidents.

No they aren't - when you public call for no mercy to be shown to people and then are involved in criminal acts yourself there is a problem.  
I didn't say there was no problem, I said they are unrelated, legally.  If a man is accused of cheating on his wife and her brother spray paints his car saying he is having an affair, these are two separate incidents.  One, he's a cheating scumbag.  Two, her brother damaged private property.  Each must be handled individually.
No it's more like a man condemns those who commit misdemeanors (such as say, trespassing), and then commits a felony (like reckless driving) himself.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Kerdy on August 14, 2012, 06:57:42 PM
The latest (http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/08/14/if_youre_a_priest_with_a_sports_car_try_not_to_crash_it) from Holy Rus':

An Orthodox priest who endorses the jailing of the Pussy Riot group of Russian activists has crashed a BMW Z4 roadster with diplomatic licence plates into two cars in Moscow, raising new questions about the lifestyle of the country's clergy.

Alexei Podobedov – also known as Igumen Timofei – collided with the vehicles on the evening of July 31, but details of the accident only emerged this week.

The BMW sports car the priest was driving had Maltese diplomatic number plates and he told police it belonged to a friend. Reports that Mr Podobedov, 38, was inebriated, were strenuously denied by his lawyer.
Unrelated.  These two incidents have nothing to do with one another.  Also, without all the information available, its a bit premature to post this with any expectation of guilt for more than poor driving.

You know...at first I thought the same thing, but afterwards I realized that this priest is against the Pussy Riot girls, has been arrested for at the very least destructive driving.  So when the church says that these girls are a danger to society...what does that make this priest then?  

Right, this man is an actual danger to society and very likely had some sort of illegal registration on this car.  For well-connected people this is common and lets the traffic police know that they shouldn't go after such cars for bribes (instead the average Russian making a few hundred dollars a months should be preyed upon).  The issue gets at the moral bankruptcy of the MP.  A few dissidents who committed a relatively innocuous offense are likely going to spend many years in jail with the the Patriarch cheering on this decision of the court and further calling for no mercy to be shown to these girls.  On the other hand the inner circle of the MP live a criminal lifestyle and nothing is done about it.  
Even if all of your guessing is remotely accurate, these are still separate incidents.

No they aren't - when you public call for no mercy to be shown to people and then are involved in criminal acts yourself there is a problem.  
I didn't say there was no problem, I said they are unrelated, legally.  If a man is accused of cheating on his wife and her brother spray paints his car saying he is having an affair, these are two separate incidents.  One, he's a cheating scumbag.  Two, her brother damaged private property.  Each must be handled individually.
No it's more like a man condemns those who commit misdemeanors (such as say, trespassing), and then commits a felony (like reckless driving) himself.

Right.  Two different and separate actions.  Two different and separate incidents.  Neither having anything to do with the other.  Both (potentially) wrong by each set of people involved.  Even if he is wrong, this in no way provides acceptance of the girl band members actions.  This isn't a "gotcha" moment.

If I perceive an injustice by someone and myself commit a crime, I am still guilty.  If the person I opposed goes out and later commits an unrelated crime, it has nothing to do with my previous actions.  This is nothing more than finger pointing at this point.  What if later we find out this priest did just borrow a car, a steer tire blew out and caused an accident he could not prevent?  What if he was intoxicated?  Neither has anything to do with the band members actions.  I encourage us all not to let our emotions control our thoughts.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Kerdy on August 14, 2012, 07:02:26 PM
The latest (http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/08/14/if_youre_a_priest_with_a_sports_car_try_not_to_crash_it) from Holy Rus':

An Orthodox priest who endorses the jailing of the Pussy Riot group of Russian activists has crashed a BMW Z4 roadster with diplomatic licence plates into two cars in Moscow, raising new questions about the lifestyle of the country's clergy.

Alexei Podobedov – also known as Igumen Timofei – collided with the vehicles on the evening of July 31, but details of the accident only emerged this week.

The BMW sports car the priest was driving had Maltese diplomatic number plates and he told police it belonged to a friend. Reports that Mr Podobedov, 38, was inebriated, were strenuously denied by his lawyer.
Unrelated.  These two incidents have nothing to do with one another.  Also, without all the information available, its a bit premature to post this with any expectation of guilt for more than poor driving.

You know...at first I thought the same thing, but afterwards I realized that this priest is against the Pussy Riot girls, has been arrested for at the very least destructive driving.  So when the church says that these girls are a danger to society...what does that make this priest then? 

Right, this man is an actual danger to society and very likely had some sort of illegal registration on this car.  For well-connected people this is common and lets the traffic police know that they shouldn't go after such cars for bribes (instead the average Russian making a few hundred dollars a months should be preyed upon).  The issue gets at the moral bankruptcy of the MP.  A few dissidents who committed a relatively innocuous offense are likely going to spend many years in jail with the the Patriarch cheering on this decision of the court and further calling for no mercy to be shown to these girls.  On the other hand the inner circle of the MP live a criminal lifestyle and nothing is done about it.  
Even if all of your guessing is remotely accurate, these are still separate incidents.

No they aren't - when you public call for no mercy to be shown to people and then are involved in criminal acts yourself there is a problem. 
I didn't say there was no problem, I said they are unrelated, legally.  If a man is accused of cheating on his wife and her brother spray paints his car saying he is having an affair, these are two separate incidents.  One, he's a cheating scumbag.  Two, her brother damaged private property.  Each must be handled individually.

I'm seeing this in the larger picture: the inner circle of the MP live flashy lives devoid of any external asceticism and in some cases are outright morally dubious.  Any criticism of this within Russian society is blunted and called anti-Christian.  Yet the MP takes his political opponents to court and ruins them.  Or in the case of his neighbor (in an apartment this is also of questionable legality) took him to court, said to the press "it is not possible to forgive" and demanded hundreds of thousands of rubles over dust.  It might seem strange to someone outside of this society, but this case is just yet another example of the "Church" living like oligarchs by one standard, and the rest us living by a different, cruel standard. 
I understand what you are saying, but there is an old saying that two wrongs don't make a right.  In otherwords, pointing out bad behavior doesnt justify someone else's bad behavior.  If they are corrupt, there are other ways to uncover and reveal it than disgraceful actions inside a church.  For instance, sit back and let a priest crash a car he shouldn't have and be intoxicated. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Kerdy on August 14, 2012, 07:07:23 PM
I'm not saying there is no corruption.  I'm not saying there is.  All I'm saying is it has nothing to do with this girl band breaking any law.  It's a topic for another thread, which I would personally be extremely interested is seeing, as I honestly know very little about it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: augustin717 on August 14, 2012, 07:13:44 PM
The latest (http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/08/14/if_youre_a_priest_with_a_sports_car_try_not_to_crash_it) from Holy Rus':

An Orthodox priest who endorses the jailing of the Pussy Riot group of Russian activists has crashed a BMW Z4 roadster with diplomatic licence plates into two cars in Moscow, raising new questions about the lifestyle of the country's clergy.

Alexei Podobedov – also known as Igumen Timofei – collided with the vehicles on the evening of July 31, but details of the accident only emerged this week.

The BMW sports car the priest was driving had Maltese diplomatic number plates and he told police it belonged to a friend. Reports that Mr Podobedov, 38, was inebriated, were strenuously denied by his lawyer.
Unrelated.  These two incidents have nothing to do with one another.  Also, without all the information available, its a bit premature to post this with any expectation of guilt for more than poor driving.

You know...at first I thought the same thing, but afterwards I realized that this priest is against the Pussy Riot girls, has been arrested for at the very least destructive driving.  So when the church says that these girls are a danger to society...what does that make this priest then? 

Right, this man is an actual danger to society and very likely had some sort of illegal registration on this car.  For well-connected people this is common and lets the traffic police know that they shouldn't go after such cars for bribes (instead the average Russian making a few hundred dollars a months should be preyed upon).  The issue gets at the moral bankruptcy of the MP.  A few dissidents who committed a relatively innocuous offense are likely going to spend many years in jail with the the Patriarch cheering on this decision of the court and further calling for no mercy to be shown to these girls.  On the other hand the inner circle of the MP live a criminal lifestyle and nothing is done about it.  
Even if all of your guessing is remotely accurate, these are still separate incidents.

No they aren't - when you public call for no mercy to be shown to people and then are involved in criminal acts yourself there is a problem. 
I didn't say there was no problem, I said they are unrelated, legally.  If a man is accused of cheating on his wife and her brother spray paints his car saying he is having an affair, these are two separate incidents.  One, he's a cheating scumbag.  Two, her brother damaged private property.  Each must be handled individually.

I'm seeing this in the larger picture: the inner circle of the MP live flashy lives devoid of any external asceticism and in some cases are outright morally dubious.  Any criticism of this within Russian society is blunted and called anti-Christian.  Yet the MP takes his political opponents to court and ruins them.  Or in the case of his neighbor (in an apartment this is also of questionable legality) took him to court, said to the press "it is not possible to forgive" and demanded hundreds of thousands of rubles over dust.  It might seem strange to someone outside of this society, but this case is just yet another example of the "Church" living like oligarchs by one standard, and the rest us living by a different, cruel standard. 
I understand what you are saying, but there is an old saying that two wrongs don't make a right.  In otherwords, pointing out bad behavior doesnt justify someone else's bad behavior.  If they are corrupt, there are other ways to uncover and reveal it than disgraceful actions inside a church.  For instance, sit back and let a priest crash a car he shouldn't have and be intoxicated. 
You're straining the gnat and swallowing the camel. Not that it's surprising, but hopefully you'll grow up and realized that being orthodox doesn't mean you should always side with the upper hierarchy that has their own interests that aren't yours etc.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Νεκτάριος on August 14, 2012, 07:22:09 PM
I honestly know very little about it.

And you are trying to tell me what I should think?  

The issues are related as the MP and its minions have been calling for blood in the domestic press.  On the other hand the only semi-official statement I've seen in the press re: Igumen Timothy was something along the lines of waiting and seeing what conclusions the civil authorities come to...no sense of hysteria or screaming for justice that is otherwise typical of statements denouncing the political opponents of the MP.  

Do I think what Pussy Riot did was proper?  No, but of all the crimes that happen on a daily basis within the CIS it ranks pretty close to being the least important.  
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Kerdy on August 14, 2012, 08:17:46 PM
The latest (http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/08/14/if_youre_a_priest_with_a_sports_car_try_not_to_crash_it) from Holy Rus':

An Orthodox priest who endorses the jailing of the Pussy Riot group of Russian activists has crashed a BMW Z4 roadster with diplomatic licence plates into two cars in Moscow, raising new questions about the lifestyle of the country's clergy.

Alexei Podobedov – also known as Igumen Timofei – collided with the vehicles on the evening of July 31, but details of the accident only emerged this week.

The BMW sports car the priest was driving had Maltese diplomatic number plates and he told police it belonged to a friend. Reports that Mr Podobedov, 38, was inebriated, were strenuously denied by his lawyer.
Unrelated.  These two incidents have nothing to do with one another.  Also, without all the information available, its a bit premature to post this with any expectation of guilt for more than poor driving.

You know...at first I thought the same thing, but afterwards I realized that this priest is against the Pussy Riot girls, has been arrested for at the very least destructive driving.  So when the church says that these girls are a danger to society...what does that make this priest then? 

Right, this man is an actual danger to society and very likely had some sort of illegal registration on this car.  For well-connected people this is common and lets the traffic police know that they shouldn't go after such cars for bribes (instead the average Russian making a few hundred dollars a months should be preyed upon).  The issue gets at the moral bankruptcy of the MP.  A few dissidents who committed a relatively innocuous offense are likely going to spend many years in jail with the the Patriarch cheering on this decision of the court and further calling for no mercy to be shown to these girls.  On the other hand the inner circle of the MP live a criminal lifestyle and nothing is done about it.  
Even if all of your guessing is remotely accurate, these are still separate incidents.

No they aren't - when you public call for no mercy to be shown to people and then are involved in criminal acts yourself there is a problem. 
I didn't say there was no problem, I said they are unrelated, legally.  If a man is accused of cheating on his wife and her brother spray paints his car saying he is having an affair, these are two separate incidents.  One, he's a cheating scumbag.  Two, her brother damaged private property.  Each must be handled individually.

I'm seeing this in the larger picture: the inner circle of the MP live flashy lives devoid of any external asceticism and in some cases are outright morally dubious.  Any criticism of this within Russian society is blunted and called anti-Christian.  Yet the MP takes his political opponents to court and ruins them.  Or in the case of his neighbor (in an apartment this is also of questionable legality) took him to court, said to the press "it is not possible to forgive" and demanded hundreds of thousands of rubles over dust.  It might seem strange to someone outside of this society, but this case is just yet another example of the "Church" living like oligarchs by one standard, and the rest us living by a different, cruel standard. 
I understand what you are saying, but there is an old saying that two wrongs don't make a right.  In otherwords, pointing out bad behavior doesnt justify someone else's bad behavior.  If they are corrupt, there are other ways to uncover and reveal it than disgraceful actions inside a church.  For instance, sit back and let a priest crash a car he shouldn't have and be intoxicated. 
You're straining the gnat and swallowing the camel. Not that it's surprising, but hopefully you'll grow up and realized that being orthodox doesn't mean you should always side with the upper hierarchy that has their own interests that aren't yours etc.
Maybe, when I grow up.  Personal jabs always help, don't they?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Kerdy on August 14, 2012, 08:21:46 PM
I honestly know very little about it.

And you are trying to tell me what I should think?  

The issues are related as the MP and its minions have been calling for blood in the domestic press.  On the other hand the only semi-official statement I've seen in the press re: Igumen Timothy was something along the lines of waiting and seeing what conclusions the civil authorities come to...no sense of hysteria or screaming for justice that is otherwise typical of statements denouncing the political opponents of the MP.  

Do I think what Pussy Riot did was proper?  No, but of all the crimes that happen on a daily basis within the CIS it ranks pretty close to being the least important.  
Well, I'm not going to argue.  My only concern is emotional attaching one event to another when they should not be connected.  If what you are seeking is justice, that is entirely the wrong approach.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: mike on August 14, 2012, 08:23:56 PM
Why do American converts think things in Russia go the very same way as in their parishes?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Kerdy on August 14, 2012, 08:28:51 PM
Why do American converts think things in Russia go the very same way as in their parishes?
I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: mike on August 14, 2012, 08:34:00 PM
Your posts speak otherwise.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Kerdy on August 14, 2012, 08:58:30 PM
 
Your posts speak otherwise.
???

If you say so, but I'm not here to argue.

I didn't realize you were Russian.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Vladik on August 15, 2012, 02:11:10 AM
(http://world.fedpress.ru/sites/fedpress/files/tkhoruzhenko/news/1dkvgskl.jpg)

Austria. An Orthodox Church.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Cavaradossi on August 15, 2012, 03:22:55 AM
(http://world.fedpress.ru/sites/fedpress/files/tkhoruzhenko/news/1dkvgskl.jpg)

Austria. An Orthodox Church.

How unfortunate. Perhaps an embassy would be a better place for such antics.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: mike on August 15, 2012, 06:09:06 AM
I didn't realize you were Russian.

I'm not. But I belong to an Eastern Slavic nation, I've been to Russia, know many Russians and my country's Orthodox culture is heavily influenced by Russia.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Kerdy on August 15, 2012, 07:58:17 AM
(http://world.fedpress.ru/sites/fedpress/files/tkhoruzhenko/news/1dkvgskl.jpg)

Austria. An Orthodox Church.

How unfortunate. Perhaps an embassy would be a better place for such antics.
I agree, a place it may actually have some success.  Without silly masks instead of looking like hoodlums.

I especially enjoy the familiar, "God Loves.." portion.  Somehow, I don't see God jamming out to this vulgarly titled band.  As some previously pointed out, these signs are all in English for a reason.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Kerdy on August 15, 2012, 08:00:25 AM
I didn't realize you were Russian.

I'm not.
Interesting.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Νεκτάριος on August 15, 2012, 10:04:49 AM
(http://world.fedpress.ru/sites/fedpress/files/tkhoruzhenko/news/1dkvgskl.jpg)

Austria. An Orthodox Church.

How unfortunate. Perhaps an embassy would be a better place for such antics.

It is the MP that turned churches into political grounds, not Pussy Riot. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Kerdy on August 15, 2012, 10:10:46 AM
(http://world.fedpress.ru/sites/fedpress/files/tkhoruzhenko/news/1dkvgskl.jpg)

Austria. An Orthodox Church.

How unfortunate. Perhaps an embassy would be a better place for such antics.

It is the MP that turned churches into political grounds, not Pussy Riot. 
Because you see one person doing something you think is wrong, all bets are off and people can do whatever they like in response?  That approach has never been successful in the past, what makes you think this will be different?  Fingerpointing is child's play.  Stop attempting to justify wrongs by pointing to other wrongs.  Try supporting what is right.  It's what Christians are supposed to be doing.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Bigsinner on August 15, 2012, 10:48:55 AM
I may be wrong, but I don't think people here are saying that the MP is flawed therefore the punk group did nothing wrong. I don't think anyone is saying that because the MP is flawed/wrong vis-a-vis some issue, then any and all actions committed in protest should be allowed/forgiven. 

I believe that they making these separate points:

1.  These girls were wrong in what they did, and should be punished accordingly, but the punishment must fit the crime.   
     Up to seven years imprisonment for what amounts to non-violent disturbing the peace is excessive any way you 
     slice it.

2.  The MP is not projecting Christian values by demanding blood for being insulted.

3.  The MP, by being inconsistent in their treatment of these girls versus their treatment of questionable activities by their
     own clergy, is exhibiting hypocricy.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: mike on August 15, 2012, 10:51:40 AM
1.  These girls were wrong in what they did, and should be punished accordingly, but the punishment must fit the crime.  Up
     to seven years imprisonment for what amounts to non-violent disturbing the peace is excessive any way you slice
     it.

2.  The MP is not projecting Christian values by demanding blood for being insulted.

3.  The MP, by being inconsistent in their treatment of these girls versus their treatment of questionable activities by their
     own clergy, is exhibiting hypocricy.

4. The MP should not be surprised that people do not view churches as sacred when they do big alcohol parties themselves there.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Bigsinner on August 15, 2012, 10:58:10 AM
1.  These girls were wrong in what they did, and should be punished accordingly, but the punishment must fit the crime.  Up
     to seven years imprisonment for what amounts to non-violent disturbing the peace is excessive any way you slice
     it.

2.  The MP is not projecting Christian values by demanding blood for being insulted.

3.  The MP, by being inconsistent in their treatment of these girls versus their treatment of questionable activities by their
     own clergy, is exhibiting hypocricy.

4. The MP should not be surprised that people do not view churches as sacred when they do big alcohol parties themselves there.

I don't know about your church, but my church isn't holding keggers on the altar.   ::)  Perhaps you could be a little more specific, or would you rather just make incendiary statements (as is your want) and run away?   :police:
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: sheenj on August 15, 2012, 11:16:31 AM
(http://world.fedpress.ru/sites/fedpress/files/tkhoruzhenko/news/1dkvgskl.jpg)

Austria. An Orthodox Church.

How unfortunate. Perhaps an embassy would be a better place for such antics.

It is the MP that turned churches into political grounds, not Pussy Riot. 
Because you see one person doing something you think is wrong, all bets are off and people can do whatever they like in response?  That approach has never been successful in the past, what makes you think this will be different?  Fingerpointing is child's play.  Stop attempting to justify wrongs by pointing to other wrongs.  Try supporting what is right.  It's what Christians are supposed to be doing.
No one's saying that what the Pussy Riot Girls did was right. What they're saying is that the MP's stance on this matter is uncharitable and downright unchristian, and frankly, I have to agree with that.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Vladik on August 15, 2012, 11:18:11 AM
Finland. A criminal case was started by Finnish police against a professor, who tried to make a performance a-la PR in an Orthodox Cathedral.   

(http://pics.top.rbc.ru/top_pics/uniora/70/1345035823_0370.250x200.jpeg)

http://top.rbc.ru/incidents/15/08/2012/664709.shtml
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: mike on August 15, 2012, 11:35:07 AM
I don't know about your church, but my church isn't holding keggers on the altar.   ::)  Perhaps you could be a little more specific, or would you rather just make incendiary statements (as is your want) and run away?   :police:

try some of these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds5XMeKMHHw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIxXyqiNQh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dp2hZyCgMJE
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: stanley123 on August 15, 2012, 12:30:45 PM
try some of these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds5XMeKMHHw

So are the Orthodox becoming more modern and liberal with such performances?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Bigsinner on August 15, 2012, 01:45:41 PM
Quote
from Michael Kalina: 4. The MP should not be surprised that people do not view churches as sacred when they do big alcohol parties themselves there.

Quote
try some of these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds5XMeKMHHw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIxXyqiNQh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dp2hZyCgMJE

(not so) Nice try Michael K.  In the words of a great man, "there you go again".

You accuse the MP of having "big alcohol parties" in church;  I call you on it;  and then you offer videos that DO NOT DEPICT 'big alcohol parties".  Are you purposely trying to mislead people?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Νεκτάριος on August 15, 2012, 01:48:19 PM
Quote
from Michael Kalina: 4. The MP should not be surprised that people do not view churches as sacred when they do big alcohol parties themselves there.

Quote
try some of these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds5XMeKMHHw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIxXyqiNQh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dp2hZyCgMJE

(not so) Nice try Michael K.  In the words of a great man, "there you go again".

You accuse the MP of having "big alcohol parties" in church;  I call you on it;  and then you offer videos that DO NOT DEPICT 'big alcohol parties".  Are you purposely trying to mislead people?

Try going to church on Easter here.  It is filled with drunks getting the vodka in their Easter baskets blessed. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: mike on August 15, 2012, 01:55:52 PM
You accuse the MP of having "big alcohol parties" in church;  I call you on it;  and then you offer videos that DO NOT DEPICT 'big alcohol parties".  Are you purposely trying to mislead people?

"Sophrino's" president birthday party in the Christ the Saviour Cathedral:
http://irek-murtazin.livejournal.com/757243.html?view=20911099#t20911099
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: JamesR on August 15, 2012, 01:56:59 PM
I thought you guys had the freedom to protest now. What exactly are their charges?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Bigsinner on August 15, 2012, 02:05:41 PM
You accuse the MP of having "big alcohol parties" in church;  I call you on it;  and then you offer videos that DO NOT DEPICT 'big alcohol parties".  Are you purposely trying to mislead people?

"Sophrino's" president birthday party in the Christ the Saviour Cathedral:
http://irek-murtazin.livejournal.com/757243.html?view=20911099#t20911099

There you go again!

This link also does not show "big alcohol parties" in a church (or cathedral).  I see a dinner-dance in what appears to be a hall, and I see people on a boat of some sort.   ???

Or are you of the opinion that any drinking of alcohol outside of partaking of the Eucharist is a sin?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: mike on August 15, 2012, 02:08:12 PM
This link also does not show "big alcohol parties" in a church.  I see a dinner-dance in what appears to be a hall, and I see people on a boat of some sort.   ???

The first part is in the Church basement. The very same Church the Pussy Riot performed.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Bigsinner on August 15, 2012, 02:23:34 PM
So the church hall is in the basement.  So?  When one accuses another of having "big alcohol parties" in a church, others expect it to be alcoholic debauchery in the church, rather than a dinner party in the church hall during which alcohol was served. 

Since the pictures do not support your original assertion and its logical inferences, I will ask you again:  Outside of partaking of the Eucharist, are you implying that it is a sin to consume alcohol?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Νεκτάριος on August 15, 2012, 02:27:20 PM
So the church hall is in the basement.  So?  When one accuses another of having "big alcohol parties" in a church, others expect it to be alcoholic debauchery in the church, rather than a dinner party in the church hall during which alcohol was served. 

Since the pictures do not support your original assertion and its logical inferences, I will ask you again:  Outside of partaking of the Eucharist, are you implying that it is a sin to consume alcohol?

Have you have been to ХХС?  Or more to the point, ever been to a Russian part?   :D   
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: mike on August 15, 2012, 02:55:05 PM
Have you have been to ХХС? 

I've been there to a 3-day-long conference.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Νεκτάριος on August 15, 2012, 03:04:07 PM
Have you have been to ХХС? 

I've been there to a 3-day-long conference.

It's been a few years since I've been there, but if I remember correctly the basement is sort of a continuation of the sacred space rather than a delineated church hall that is common in the US. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: mike on August 15, 2012, 03:05:24 PM
Well, all these conference and banquet halls have frescoes and icon stands everywhere, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: orthonorm on August 15, 2012, 04:59:26 PM
(http://world.fedpress.ru/sites/fedpress/files/tkhoruzhenko/news/1dkvgskl.jpg)

Austria. An Orthodox Church.

Hey, they've done worse . . . This is pretty tame by Austrian standards.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: orthonorm on August 15, 2012, 05:01:09 PM
Why do American converts think things in Russia go the very same way as in their parishes?

Kerdy likes to be wrong. While a seemingly grand American pastime, not everyone is quite so caught up in it as he.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: orthonorm on August 15, 2012, 05:02:23 PM
(http://world.fedpress.ru/sites/fedpress/files/tkhoruzhenko/news/1dkvgskl.jpg)

Austria. An Orthodox Church.

How unfortunate. Perhaps an embassy would be a better place for such antics.

Whoa this ain't politics? I just nearly made an terrible pun that would've gotten me modded in a public forum.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Pan Michał on August 15, 2012, 05:10:53 PM
Guys, please stop it. Do not accuse anyone. No one deserves it, neither they, nor you. Yes, I know I've attacked Schultz, and I'm not proud of it. Just don't do the same as me, for I am sorry. No one is to blame. This is just one big misunderstanding.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Kerdy on August 15, 2012, 06:50:49 PM
(http://world.fedpress.ru/sites/fedpress/files/tkhoruzhenko/news/1dkvgskl.jpg)

Austria. An Orthodox Church.

How unfortunate. Perhaps an embassy would be a better place for such antics.

It is the MP that turned churches into political grounds, not Pussy Riot. 
Because you see one person doing something you think is wrong, all bets are off and people can do whatever they like in response?  That approach has never been successful in the past, what makes you think this will be different?  Fingerpointing is child's play.  Stop attempting to justify wrongs by pointing to other wrongs.  Try supporting what is right.  It's what Christians are supposed to be doing.
No one's saying that what the Pussy Riot Girls did was right. What they're saying is that the MP's stance on this matter is uncharitable and downright unchristian, and frankly, I have to agree with that.
It would help if people clearly and simply said what you just said and left it at that.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Punch on August 15, 2012, 07:34:09 PM
(http://world.fedpress.ru/sites/fedpress/files/tkhoruzhenko/news/1dkvgskl.jpg)

Austria. An Orthodox Church.

How unfortunate. Perhaps an embassy would be a better place for such antics.

It is the MP that turned churches into political grounds, not Pussy Riot. 
Because you see one person doing something you think is wrong, all bets are off and people can do whatever they like in response?  That approach has never been successful in the past, what makes you think this will be different?  Fingerpointing is child's play.  Stop attempting to justify wrongs by pointing to other wrongs.  Try supporting what is right.  It's what Christians are supposed to be doing.
No one's saying that what the Pussy Riot Girls did was right. What they're saying is that the MP's stance on this matter is uncharitable and downright unchristian, and frankly, I have to agree with that.

I don't.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: serb1389 on August 16, 2012, 12:14:58 PM
(http://world.fedpress.ru/sites/fedpress/files/tkhoruzhenko/news/1dkvgskl.jpg)

Austria. An Orthodox Church.

How unfortunate. Perhaps an embassy would be a better place for such antics.

Whoa this ain't politics? I just nearly made an terrible pun that would've gotten me modded in a public forum.

It's not like there is advocacy for voting, or pushing a certain agenda.  Just a statement of thought/fact.  Plus they did say "perhaps"   ;) ;D ::) :angel:
Title: Aleksandr Dugin on "Pussy Riots" global blackmail
Post by: finbar on August 17, 2012, 06:28:59 AM
I may not agree with Aleksandr Dugin's thought on all things, but his analysis of the
Significance of the whole global media campaign around the "Pussy Riot" trial is thought provoking and
Worthy of following for the full ten minutes of the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxhxRyeX8tY&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Vladik on August 17, 2012, 06:57:25 AM
Pskov. Russia. An ancient Cathedral

(http://static2.aif.ru/public/news/medium/132/132988d2974053e2fd769ed1f05f0609.pskov.jpg)

(http://pln-pskov.ru/pictures/120817134840.jpg)

(http://pics.top.rbc.ru/top_pics/uniora/32/1345197752_0332.250x200.jpeg)
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Vladik on August 17, 2012, 07:04:11 AM
Kiev. Ukraine.

(http://pics.top.rbc.ru/top_pics/resized/Wx124/uniora/59/1345195567_0259.480x350.jpeg) (http://pics.top.rbc.ru/top_pics/resized/Wx124/uniora/21/1345195568_0721.480x350.jpeg)

Feminists sawn the "cross of orange revolution" off.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Kerdy on August 17, 2012, 08:46:06 AM
Kiev. Ukraine.

(http://pics.top.rbc.ru/top_pics/resized/Wx124/uniora/59/1345195567_0259.480x350.jpeg) (http://pics.top.rbc.ru/top_pics/resized/Wx124/uniora/21/1345195568_0721.480x350.jpeg)

Feminists sawn the "cross of orange revolution" off.
Because everyone know running around topless defacing or destroying property belonging to others is an action of peace, understanding and unity.  I mean, where is everyone's tolerance?

The band members were found guilty, rightfully so, and will be sentenced Friday.  Let's see what they are awarded.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Pan Michał on August 17, 2012, 08:47:43 AM
One thing I don't understand. Where is corelation between fighting with "the system" and running with your naked t*ts through the streets. How do you do that one.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Kerdy on August 17, 2012, 09:10:18 AM
One thing I don't understand. Where is corelation between fighting with "the system" and running with your naked t*ts through the streets. How do you do that one.
There is none.  Protesters today go for shock value, not the message.  They have lost their way.  Can you imagine the results of the American civil rights movement had they used these tactics?  It would not have been very successful.  Protesters have not only lost their way, but their minds as well.  Many of them don't even really care about the message, they just want to protest.  For proof, look at the "occupy" movement which failed in the US.  Total chaos and most had no clue what it was really about.  People have reduced themselves to a pathetic version of humanity and it seems there is no end in sight.  They want to be angry, so they find a reason and act foolishly.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Pan Michał on August 17, 2012, 09:25:55 AM
Can you imagine the results of the American civil rights movement had they used these tactics?

I would not bow down before any point of their petition, just to see more breasts, free of charge.

Yes, it is wrong. Then again, they've started it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Pilgrim72 on August 17, 2012, 10:08:13 AM
Hello, this is my first post--probably should pick a less controversial topic to interject myself into, but not my style. I followed this conversation with interest as a lurker. Apparently the "sentence" has just been handed down--NYT reporting 2 years in prison.

Is what they did disrespectful? Certainly. Is taking a mother away from her child for two years for what was a *political* and not religious  protest just? No way. The behavior of the sycophantic MP in this matter is disheartening. Anyone who thinks this is about anything else than Putin flexing his muscle is sorely mistaken or else has not spent time living in Russia.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Pan Michał on August 17, 2012, 10:30:00 AM
Is taking a mother away from her child for two years for what was a *political* and not religious  protest just?

Is a mother fighting the system without any hesitation and thinking about the fate of her child a mother? Just sayin'.


Anyone who thinks this is about anything else than Putin flexing his muscle is sorely mistaken or else has not spent time living in Russia.

Have you lived in Russia?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: sheenj on August 17, 2012, 10:40:29 AM
Is taking a mother away from her child for two years for what was a *political* and not religious  protest just?

Is a mother fighting the system without any hesitation and thinking about the fate of her child a mother? Just sayin'.

If you think 2 years in Prison for what amounts to trespassing is just, I hope you pay careful attention to the "Stay of the Grass" signs.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Pan Michał on August 17, 2012, 10:42:14 AM
If you think 2 years in Prison for what amounts to trespassing is just, I hope you pay careful attention to the "Stay of the Grass" signs.

Instead of speculating what I think (and what you've wrote in terms of my thoughts is obviously wrong), you'd try to answer the question.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Kerdy on August 17, 2012, 10:46:19 AM
Is taking a mother away from her child for two years for what was a *political* and not religious  protest just?

Is a mother fighting the system without any hesitation and thinking about the fate of her child a mother? Just sayin'.

If you think 2 years in Prison for what amounts to trespassing is just, I hope you pay careful attention to the "Stay of the Grass" signs.

Please forgive me, but I am confused.  On this thread people were complaining about seven years and now they received less than one third of that, you are still complaining?  I don't get it, but I suspect if they received time served, some would still say it was too severe.  Maybe this will sink into the minds of protesters.  Don't violate the sanctity of the Church.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: sheenj on August 17, 2012, 10:48:21 AM
If you think 2 years in Prison for what amounts to trespassing is just, I hope you pay careful attention to the "Stay of the Grass" signs.

Instead of speculating what I think (and what you've wrote in terms of my thoughts is obviously wrong), you'd try to answer the question.
My bad, I misunderstood your post  :-[.

However, the point still stands.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Pilgrim72 on August 17, 2012, 10:50:56 AM
@ Pan Michal,

I respect a mother who stands up to an oppressive system. Was this the best way to do it? Of course not. No argument there. But to pretend the Russian government is so concerned about the sensibilities of believers is ridiculous. And yes, I've lived in Russia. And Poland. And no, I'm not a convert.  
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: jewish voice on August 17, 2012, 10:51:56 AM
A court in Moscow has found three members of Pussy Riot, a Russian feminist punk band, guilty of hooliganism motivated by religious hatred, and sentenced them to two years in prison.http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2012/08/2012817111157592391.html

Ps and some here think Islam is a backwards Religion so much for your finger pointing  :laugh:
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Kerdy on August 17, 2012, 10:57:58 AM
A court in Moscow has found three members of Pussy Riot, a Russian feminist punk band, guilty of hooliganism motivated by religious hatred, and sentenced them to two years in prison.http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2012/08/2012817111157592391.html

Ps and some here think Islam is a backwards Religion so much for your finger pointing  :laugh:
If it was motivated as you say, that makes it a hate crime, which in America brings more severe punishment.

Also, there are so many other, more accurate, things to call Islam, backwards isn't one I have ever used.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: sheenj on August 17, 2012, 11:00:55 AM
Is taking a mother away from her child for two years for what was a *political* and not religious  protest just?

Is a mother fighting the system without any hesitation and thinking about the fate of her child a mother? Just sayin'.

If you think 2 years in Prison for what amounts to trespassing is just, I hope you pay careful attention to the "Stay of the Grass" signs.

Please forgive me, but I am confused.  On this thread people were complaining about seven years and now they received less than one third of that, you are still complaining?  I don't get it, but I suspect if they received time served, some would still say it was too severe.  Maybe this will sink into the minds of protesters.  Don't violate the sanctity of the Church.
It's not that they don't deserve punishment, it's that the severity of the punishment should fit the crime. Multiple years in prison for trespassing is cruel and unusual punishment. I'd say make them serve 30-90 days in jail tops and put them on probation for a year after. That should have been the max, not 7 years in prison.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: sheenj on August 17, 2012, 11:03:01 AM
A court in Moscow has found three members of Pussy Riot, a Russian feminist punk band, guilty of hooliganism motivated by religious hatred, and sentenced them to two years in prison.http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2012/08/2012817111157592391.html

Ps and some here think Islam is a backwards Religion so much for your finger pointing  :laugh:
If only Russia cracked down on hooligans in their soccer stadiums in this manner  ::)
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Bigsinner on August 17, 2012, 11:04:35 AM
Two years in prison for non-violent disturbing the peace?!  Although I do not approve of their actions, this punishment does not fit the crime.  Thank goodness they didn't jay-walk on the way to their protest, or they might have gotten life.  On the other hand, if there were not so much international attention to this matter, I am certain they would have been punished even more harshly.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Bigsinner on August 17, 2012, 11:06:34 AM
Is taking a mother away from her child for two years for what was a *political* and not religious  protest just?

Is a mother fighting the system without any hesitation and thinking about the fate of her child a mother? Just sayin'.

If you think 2 years in Prison for what amounts to trespassing is just, I hope you pay careful attention to the "Stay of the Grass" signs.

Please forgive me, but I am confused.  On this thread people were complaining about seven years and now they received less than one third of that, you are still complaining?  I don't get it, but I suspect if they received time served, some would still say it was too severe.  Maybe this will sink into the minds of protesters.  Don't violate the sanctity of the Church.
It's not that they don't deserve punishment, it's that the severity of the punishment should fit the crime. Multiple years in prison for trespassing is cruel and unusual punishment. I'd say make them serve 30-90 days in jail tops and put them on probation for a year after. That should have been the max, not 7 years in prison.

I agree.  I would say time served plus probation.  Perhaps community service at a Church sponsored charity.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Pan Michał on August 17, 2012, 11:06:54 AM
My bad, I misunderstood your post  :-[.

However, the point still stands.

That's ok, what I am trying to say, is that it's the case of nervous society vs reckless mothers. I pity the children.

I respect a mother who stands up to an oppressive system.

Me too. I just don't have the same deal of "respect" to mother who does not think of the obvious consequences. She has a child to raise, without her it will be robbed of life.


Was this the best way to do it? Of course not. No argument there.

I agree, too.

But to pretend the Russian government is so concerned about the sensibilities of believers is ridiculous. And yes, I've lived in Russia. And Poland. And no, I'm not a convert.  

We both know, how things go in Russia. Then again, it was an intervention because of the demand of the society. If Putin did it because he was afraid of sensibilities of his citizens? No idea, I wouldn't be surprised if he was, I wouldn't be surprised if he took it as a good "casus belli", too. All in all, my private thought is what I've wrote to sheenj, way too much from both sides, no matter just or unjust causes.


Btw., I have no bad emotions towards converts, first Christians were them :).
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Pilgrim72 on August 17, 2012, 11:07:54 AM
If only Russia cracked down on hooligans in their soccer stadiums in this manner  ::)
Or, you know, people who kill journalists or oppositionists :-[

Tags editted - MK.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: jewish voice on August 17, 2012, 11:18:08 AM
The head of the church, Patriarch Kirill, has made no secret of his strong support for Putin, even praising his presidential terms as "God's miracle" and has described the performance as part of an assault by "enemy forces" on the church.

 Patriarch  Kirill avoided talking to the media as he was leaving Warsaw's Royal Castle following a ceremony in which he and the head of Poland's Catholic Church called for mutual forgiveness and reconciliation. Microphones were set up for statements in the castle yard and reporters were brought to the site, but Kirill went straight to his car http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/17/pussy-riot-trial-guilty_n_1795570.html

I think this guy is a joke he's just after money and power from his buddy Putin and no way can you tell me different

 - post modified to reflect correct titles. S1389
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Pan Michał on August 17, 2012, 11:26:57 AM
Patriarch Kirill avoided talking to the media as he was leaving Warsaw's Royal Castle following a ceremony in which he and the head of Poland's Catholic Church called for mutual forgiveness and reconciliation. Microphones were set up for statements in the castle yard and reporters were brought to the site, but Kirill went straight to his car http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/17/pussy-riot-trial-guilty_n_1795570.html

Oh the desinformation :). Being in the zone from the beginning I will say that it is not the "fault" of Kirill I, but our gouvernement at best, which did not prepare the road of pilgrimage with time travel correctly until today. Yesterday at Maria Magdalena Church there were not so many people inside, because, as a man from the Ecumenist Society told me, someone told that only people with a pass card will be able to attend the Holy Liturgy. No one from our gouvernement did any official statement about it being false. And so forth, and so forth.

There was a press conference, btw.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Kerdy on August 17, 2012, 11:30:18 AM
They are vulgar and disrespectful.  They wanted fame and now have it.  I hope they enjoy the rewards of their actions.  After looking at the video again, it also appears they resisted law enforcement officers, multiple times.  I think two years is fitting, considering what could have happened to them.  By the time they get out, their 15 minutes of fame will have faded and perhaps they will choose to be mothers rather than activists.  Or, if they remain activists, they will do it properly.  I imagine, had they at least pretended to show remorse, it would have been even more forgiving.

Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: mike on August 17, 2012, 11:41:26 AM
On this thread people were complaining about seven years and now they received less than one third of that, you are still complaining?  I don't get it

You don't get loads of things.

You wouldn't endure a month in Russian prison.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Pan Michał on August 17, 2012, 11:48:19 AM
You don't get loads of things.

You wouldn't endure a month in Russian prison.

Hate to be anti-Solzhenitsyn, but loads of people endure Russian prison nowadays, that's not the case. Although I think I get your point, Eastern European prisons are nothing like US prison hotels/cells.

Then again, I've never been in either of them.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: 88Devin12 on August 17, 2012, 11:57:23 AM
Good on the authorities for sentencing them to two years, they definitely deserve it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: mike on August 17, 2012, 12:04:08 PM
Good on the authorities for sentencing them to two years, they definitely deserve it.

Another one American that understands nothing.

(http://www.jaffamood.com/img/misc/prison/prison01.jpg)

(http://www.christiebooks.com/ChristieBooksWP/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Cain.jpg)

(http://exiledonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/zig_02_01w.jpg)
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: 88Devin12 on August 17, 2012, 12:09:01 PM
Problem? They need to be jailing more than just this sick group, they ought to be jailing the leaders of the LGBT groups as well as the leaders of atheist movements.

They don't have our constitution and we should not expect them to uphold it's values. In fact, I think they are better off not doing so.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Pilgrim72 on August 17, 2012, 12:18:35 PM
Problem? They need to be jailing more than just this sick group, they ought to be jailing the leaders of the LGBT groups as well as the
They don't have our constitution and we should expect them to uphold it's values. In fact, I think they are better off not doing so.

I'd settle for them just trying to uphold their own Constitution... Have you read it?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: finbar on August 17, 2012, 12:22:36 PM
I've looked at the videos of the women sneering and sniggering as the judgement was read out, they don't look penitent or repentant. In fact there is something dead about their eyes and the anger and malevolence is pretty near to the surface. They've done 7 months already, with good behaviour they'll be out in 6 months and they can return to their richly deserved obscurity, they're music is so shite that they won't, even with studio assistance, be able to make a decent sound. They also have form, they are closely associated with a "protest" in a public museum which involved live sex acts and also another "protest" which involved videoing a woman stealing chicken from a super market and secreting it in the aisle of the mart in her private parts, this may be an explanation for the reference to their association with porno hooligans in the judgement. Taking a look at these sick puppies I would be surprised if they aren't all tormented by a host of demonic elements who happily inhabit their dead and lifeless brains.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Kerdy on August 17, 2012, 12:58:57 PM
On this thread people were complaining about seven years and now they received less than one third of that, you are still complaining?  I don't get it

You don't get loads of things.

You wouldn't endure a month in Russian prison.
Neither would you, but I have been to places much worse, so you would be surprised what I can endure.  You have a phenomenal skill of posting empty words.  I can say you dont get loads of things too, but that would be an empty statement as well.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Kerdy on August 17, 2012, 01:05:33 PM
I've looked at the videos of the women sneering and sniggering as the judgement was read out, they don't look penitent or repentant. In fact there is something dead about their eyes and the anger and malevolence is pretty near to the surface. They've done 7 months already, with good behaviour they'll be out in 6 months and they can return to their richly deserved obscurity, they're music is so shite that they won't, even with studio assistance, be able to make a decent sound. They also have form, they are closely associated with a "protest" in a public museum which involved live sex acts and also another "protest" which involved videoing a woman stealing chicken from a super market and secreting it in the aisle of the mart in her private parts, this may be an explanation for the reference to their association with porno hooligans in the judgement. Taking a look at these sick puppies I would be surprised if they aren't all tormented by a host of demonic elements who happily inhabit their dead and lifeless brains.

Unlike some people, I actually did some research on them.  They are anarchists supporting the overthrow of the government.  The same government who arrested them at a previous illegal performance and released them the next day, they didn't learn.  Apparently, all of their performances have been conducted illegally.  Oh, I forgot to mention they admitted to repeatedly telling lies to the police.  Now, after multiple chances, people are offended a government punished those attempting and promoting its demise.  Again, they are anarchists and this was the purpose of their creation.

I also just read where the Russian Orthodox Church requested compassion in their sentencing in the hope they would become better people.  This sort of takes the wind from everyone's sails.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Bigsinner on August 17, 2012, 01:16:56 PM
Why do I think that the same people applauding their two year prison sentence (or bemoaning the fact that it is not even harsher) would be the first to cry foul if Cindy Sheehan spent two days in jail?  I am not an anarchist and I would not think of protesting inside a church.  However, one's punishment for protesting without a license should not hinge on whether or not you agree with the message.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Kerdy on August 17, 2012, 01:22:50 PM
I just saw a poll which indicates 60% of Russians agreed with the results and believed the band members deserved it the punishment.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Cognomen on August 17, 2012, 01:23:52 PM
Their performance was absolute dross.  They should be imprisoned for that alone.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Shiny on August 17, 2012, 01:24:41 PM
Their performance was absolute dross.  They should be imprisoned for that alone.
This.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Kerdy on August 17, 2012, 01:27:54 PM
Why do I think that the same people applauding their two year prison sentence (or bemoaning the fact that it is not even harsher) would be the first to cry foul if Cindy Sheehan spent two days in jail?  I am not an anarchist and I would not think of protesting inside a church.  However, one's punishment for protesting without a license should not hinge on whether or not you agree with the message.
Cindy Sheehan?  I don't like her, but I can't express my views of her here.  I'll just say I REALLY don't respect the woman.  But, she should, as anyone else in America, go to prison if they engage in activities designed to overthrow the government.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: jewish voice on August 17, 2012, 01:44:18 PM
Really in all honesty if we were to look at the facts here. All the ones in support of the Jail time should also be in jail for your blasphemy of 1.2 billion Muslims and 200 million Jews. To us you blasphemy G-d everyday you wake up. 2) these women are not Orthodox so they say then in turn they can't be charged with blasphemy of your G-d that they don't hold to. now for grounds of trespassing yes but 2 yrs for that is very harsh. If the Church wants to start putting people in jail for blasphemy they need to start to get in line for their time in jail as well.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Kerdy on August 17, 2012, 01:49:46 PM
Really in all honesty if we were to look at the facts here. All the ones in support of the Jail time should also be in jail for your blasphemy of 1.2 billion Muslims and 200 million Jews. To us you blasphemy G-d everyday you wake up. 2) these women are not Orthodox so they say then in turn they can't be charged with blasphemy of your G-d that they don't hold to. now for grounds of trespassing yes but 2 yrs for that is very harsh. If the Church wants to start putting people in jail for blasphemy they need to start to get in line for their time in jail as well.

If I may suggest, please read everything first.  Most of post your is based off incorrect assumptions  already clarified and weak associations between things unrelated.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: mike on August 17, 2012, 01:53:28 PM
Really in all honesty if we were to look at the facts here. All the ones in support of the Jail time should also be in jail for your blasphemy of 1.2 billion Muslims and 200 million Jews. To us you blasphemy G-d everyday you wake up. 2) these women are not Orthodox so they say then in turn they can't be charged with blasphemy of your G-d that they don't hold to. now for grounds of trespassing yes but 2 yrs for that is very harsh. If the Church wants to start putting people in jail for blasphemy they need to start to get in line for their time in jail as well.

This.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: mike on August 17, 2012, 02:05:08 PM
Church asks state to show mercy to convicted Pussy Riot members (updated)
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=9740

Too late.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on August 17, 2012, 02:20:01 PM
Is taking a mother away from her child for two years for what was a *political* and not religious  protest just?

Is a mother fighting the system without any hesitation and thinking about the fate of her child a mother? Just sayin'.

If you think 2 years in Prison for what amounts to trespassing is just, I hope you pay careful attention to the "Stay of the Grass" signs.

Please forgive me, but I am confused.  On this thread people were complaining about seven years and now they received less than one third of that, you are still complaining?  I don't get it, but I suspect if they received time served, some would still say it was too severe.  Maybe this will sink into the minds of protesters.  Don't violate the sanctity of the Church.

The Lord said "turn the other cheek." On one hand, I intensely disliked what these misguided young women did. On the other hand, I think the reaction of the Patriarch and many believers was not in keeping with our Lord's approach. In a perverse way, the reaction violated the true sanctity of the Body of Christ worse than the action itself.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Bigsinner on August 17, 2012, 02:34:50 PM
Really in all honesty if we were to look at the facts here. All the ones in support of the Jail time should also be in jail for your blasphemy of 1.2 billion Muslims and 200 million Jews. To us you blasphemy G-d everyday you wake up. 2) these women are not Orthodox so they say then in turn they can't be charged with blasphemy of your G-d that they don't hold to. now for grounds of trespassing yes but 2 yrs for that is very harsh. If the Church wants to start putting people in jail for blasphemy they need to start to get in line for their time in jail as well.

This.

Finally, Michael, something we can agree on!   :) :)
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Kerdy on August 17, 2012, 02:38:06 PM
Church asks state to show mercy to convicted Pussy Riot members (updated)
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=9740

Too late.
Because you say so?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Kerdy on August 17, 2012, 02:41:26 PM
Is taking a mother away from her child for two years for what was a *political* and not religious  protest just?

Is a mother fighting the system without any hesitation and thinking about the fate of her child a mother? Just sayin'.

If you think 2 years in Prison for what amounts to trespassing is just, I hope you pay careful attention to the "Stay of the Grass" signs.

Please forgive me, but I am confused.  On this thread people were complaining about seven years and now they received less than one third of that, you are still complaining?  I don't get it, but I suspect if they received time served, some would still say it was too severe.  Maybe this will sink into the minds of protesters.  Don't violate the sanctity of the Church.

The Lord said "turn the other cheek." On one hand, I intensely disliked what these misguided young women did. On the other hand, I think the reaction of the Patriarch and many believers was not in keeping with our Lord's approach. In a perverse way, the reaction violated the true sanctity of the Body of Christ worse than the action itself.
I understand what you are saying, I just have a difficult time merging it all together.  I see each thing as a separate issue.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: mike on August 17, 2012, 02:42:35 PM
Church asks state to show mercy to convicted Pussy Riot members (updated)
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=9740

Too late.
Because you say so?

Because it was published after the verdict.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Kerdy on August 17, 2012, 02:45:25 PM
Church asks state to show mercy to convicted Pussy Riot members (updated)
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=9740

Too late.
Because you say so?

Because it was published after the verdict.
And? 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: mike on August 17, 2012, 02:47:06 PM
Church asks state to show mercy to convicted Pussy Riot members (updated)
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=9740

Too late.
Because you say so?

Because it was published after the verdict.
And? 

They ask the court to be merciful after the verdict. Can't you see it pointless?

The court had already issued it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Kerdy on August 17, 2012, 02:49:42 PM
Church asks state to show mercy to convicted Pussy Riot members (updated)
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=9740

Too late.
Because you say so?

Because it was published after the verdict.
And? 

They ask the court to be merciful after the verdict. Can't you see it pointless?

The court had already issued it.
There is a guilty finding and a sentencing.  Which one do you object to the Churches statement being made public after the fact?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on August 17, 2012, 02:50:30 PM
Church asks state to show mercy to convicted Pussy Riot members (updated)
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=9740

Too late.
Because you say so?

I do not think that it was too late. Before the sentencing, Putin had to continue to show that he is a strong and resolute leader. The Church had to show that She respects the law and is The guardian for the dignity of the Church. The judge had to show her adherence to the law, at the same time that she was independent from the state prosecutor (two years instead of the three demanded by the prosecutor). Now that all of the actors have performed their part in Act I, Act II started with the statement from the ROC cited above. I would think that President Putin will now show a merciful side. The play will likely end with the convicted girls spending far less than two years in jail.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: mike on August 17, 2012, 02:52:51 PM
Church asks state to show mercy to convicted Pussy Riot members (updated)
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=9740

Too late.
Because you say so?

Because it was published after the verdict.
And? 

They ask the court to be merciful after the verdict. Can't you see it pointless?

The court had already issued it.
There is a guilty finding and a sentencing.  Which one do you object to the Churches statement being made public after the fact?

AFAIK it was published after both.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Ansgar on August 17, 2012, 02:54:52 PM
Protesters are planning to perform a dance in front of the russian church in Copenhagen. I have nothing against the protest, but I had hoped, they would stay at the embassy. :-[
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: 88Devin12 on August 17, 2012, 02:56:24 PM
Really in all honesty if we were to look at the facts here. All the ones in support of the Jail time should also be in jail for your blasphemy of 1.2 billion Muslims and 200 million Jews. To us you blasphemy G-d everyday you wake up. 2) these women are not Orthodox so they say then in turn they can't be charged with blasphemy of your G-d that they don't hold to. now for grounds of trespassing yes but 2 yrs for that is very harsh. If the Church wants to start putting people in jail for blasphemy they need to start to get in line for their time in jail as well.

One catch, they don't live in a Jewish or Muslim nation, they live in an Orthodox one, so they can shove it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: LizaSymonenko on August 17, 2012, 02:59:03 PM
Really in all honesty if we were to look at the facts here. All the ones in support of the Jail time should also be in jail for your blasphemy of 1.2 billion Muslims and 200 million Jews. To us you blasphemy G-d everyday you wake up. 2) these women are not Orthodox so they say then in turn they can't be charged with blasphemy of your G-d that they don't hold to. now for grounds of trespassing yes but 2 yrs for that is very harsh. If the Church wants to start putting people in jail for blasphemy they need to start to get in line for their time in jail as well.

What is this with the "your God"?

If you actually knew YOUR God, you would realize He is our God.   ;)
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: mike on August 17, 2012, 02:59:26 PM
One catch, they don't live in a Jewish or Muslim nation, they live in an Orthodox one, so they can shove it.

In Russia Judaism, Orthodox Christianity, Islam and Buddhism are called "traditional religions". So Russia is Jewish and Muslim nation as well as the Orthodox one.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: 88Devin12 on August 17, 2012, 03:01:38 PM
They really ought to reduce the sentence but take their children away. If they are raising their kids with the same "values" they have and with the same evil, demon-possessed intentions then that definitely constitutes the need to take the children away from then. Maybe give their children to a nice, good quality church run orphanage or something.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: 88Devin12 on August 17, 2012, 03:03:17 PM
One catch, they don't live in a Jewish or Muslim nation, they live in an Orthodox one, so they can shove it.

In Russia Judaism, Orthodox Christianity, Islam and Buddhism are called "traditional religions". So Russia is Jewish and Muslim nation as well as the Orthodox one.

Most of the leaders are orthodox, the vast majority of Russians are orthodox, it's been orthodox for over 1000 years, and the Russian Church is the biggest and richest organization almost even beyond the oil companies. Islam and Judaism need to be stamped out there.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Ansgar on August 17, 2012, 03:09:38 PM
Devin, you scare me.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Bigsinner on August 17, 2012, 03:14:52 PM
One catch, they don't live in a Jewish or Muslim nation, they live in an Orthodox one, so they can shove it.

In Russia Judaism, Orthodox Christianity, Islam and Buddhism are called "traditional religions". So Russia is Jewish and Muslim nation as well as the Orthodox one.

Most of the leaders are orthodox, the vast majority of Russians are orthodox, it's been orthodox for over 1000 years, and the Russian Church is the biggest and richest organization almost even beyond the oil companies. Islam and Judaism need to be stamped out there.

And each and every Russian Orthodox is infallible in both word and in deed?   ::)  Just because they are Orthodox does not mean they aren't wrong in this matter!  News Flash:  Sometimes even Non-Orthodox have been known to have taken correct, and even moral, positions.  Go figure? ::)
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Kerdy on August 17, 2012, 03:15:59 PM
Church asks state to show mercy to convicted Pussy Riot members (updated)
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=9740

Too late.
Because you say so?

Because it was published after the verdict.
And? 

They ask the court to be merciful after the verdict. Can't you see it pointless?

The court had already issued it.
There is a guilty finding and a sentencing.  Which one do you object to the Churches statement being made public after the fact?

AFAIK it was published after both.
Hmm.  I imagine it would be difficult to request a softer sentence if they had not been found guilty yet, so you first problem is solved.  As for the second, your objection, as you stated, is when it was published, not when it was submitted to the court, so your second problem is solved as it had to have been submitted prior to sentencing for the court to consider, which they apparently did..  Anything else?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Kerdy on August 17, 2012, 03:16:53 PM
Church asks state to show mercy to convicted Pussy Riot members (updated)
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=9740

Too late.
Because you say so?

I do not think that it was too late. Before the sentencing, Putin had to continue to show that he is a strong and resolute leader. The Church had to show that She respects the law and is The guardian for the dignity of the Church. The judge had to show her adherence to the law, at the same time that she was independent from the state prosecutor (two years instead of the three demanded by the prosecutor). Now that all of the actors have performed their part in Act I, Act II started with the statement from the ROC cited above. I would think that President Putin will now show a merciful side. The play will likely end with the convicted girls spending far less than two years in jail.
I agree and also think they will be released earlier.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Kerdy on August 17, 2012, 03:20:29 PM
One catch, they don't live in a Jewish or Muslim nation, they live in an Orthodox one, so they can shove it.

In Russia Judaism, Orthodox Christianity, Islam and Buddhism are called "traditional religions". So Russia is Jewish and Muslim nation as well as the Orthodox one.
But no one is protesting the government by defamating a synagogue or mosque or Buddist temple.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Kerdy on August 17, 2012, 03:23:51 PM
One catch, they don't live in a Jewish or Muslim nation, they live in an Orthodox one, so they can shove it.

In Russia Judaism, Orthodox Christianity, Islam and Buddhism are called "traditional religions". So Russia is Jewish and Muslim nation as well as the Orthodox one.

Most of the leaders are orthodox, the vast majority of Russians are orthodox, it's been orthodox for over 1000 years, and the Russian Church is the biggest and richest organization almost even beyond the oil companies. Islam and Judaism need to be stamped out there.

And each and every Russian Orthodox is infallible in both word and in deed?   ::)  Just because they are Orthodox does not mean they aren't wrong in this matter!
Does this understanding extend to the Church hierarchy or just everyone else?  It appears people are a little too judgmental toward the Church and lack any of the understanding you just spoke.about.

Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: 88Devin12 on August 17, 2012, 03:29:05 PM
Devin, you scare me.

Wow that scared me too, that sounded a lot worse than I intended. I was referring to evangelism but it sounded like something much more violent...
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Bigsinner on August 17, 2012, 03:45:31 PM
One catch, they don't live in a Jewish or Muslim nation, they live in an Orthodox one, so they can shove it.

In Russia Judaism, Orthodox Christianity, Islam and Buddhism are called "traditional religions". So Russia is Jewish and Muslim nation as well as the Orthodox one.

Most of the leaders are orthodox, the vast majority of Russians are orthodox, it's been orthodox for over 1000 years, and the Russian Church is the biggest and richest organization almost even beyond the oil companies. Islam and Judaism need to be stamped out there.

And each and every Russian Orthodox is infallible in both word and in deed?   ::)  Just because they are Orthodox does not mean they aren't wrong in this matter!
Does this understanding extend to the Church hierarchy or just everyone else?  It appears people are a little too judgmental toward the Church and lack any of the understanding you just spoke.about.



I'm not being judgmental about the Church, just saying that in this matter it is wrong.  Good thing I am typing this in the good ole USA, and not in Putingrad, or I might be imprisoned too!  Well, I am being judgmental about Comrade Putin and his government, though I think rightfully.  Or is venerating Putin now a requirement for all Orthodox Christians?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Kerdy on August 17, 2012, 03:53:00 PM
One catch, they don't live in a Jewish or Muslim nation, they live in an Orthodox one, so they can shove it.

In Russia Judaism, Orthodox Christianity, Islam and Buddhism are called "traditional religions". So Russia is Jewish and Muslim nation as well as the Orthodox one.

Most of the leaders are orthodox, the vast majority of Russians are orthodox, it's been orthodox for over 1000 years, and the Russian Church is the biggest and richest organization almost even beyond the oil companies. Islam and Judaism need to be stamped out there.

And each and every Russian Orthodox is infallible in both word and in deed?   ::)  Just because they are Orthodox does not mean they aren't wrong in this matter!
Does this understanding extend to the Church hierarchy or just everyone else?  It appears people are a little too judgmental toward the Church and lack any of the understanding you just spoke.about.



I'm not being judgmental about the Church, just saying that in this matter it is wrong.  Good thing I am typing this in the good ole USA, and not in Putingrad, or I might be imprisoned too!  Well, I am being judgmental about Comrade Putin and his government, though I think rightfully.  Or is venerating Putin now a requirement for all Orthodox Christians?
I'm not against having feelings on issues, we all do.  I just want to make certain we apply the same standard to everyone.  None of us are perfect, including bishops.  We also don't know what is going on behind the scenes in the Russian Church, we are guessing.  I don't think Putin is being venerated.  Did you see his reaction to having his hand kissed?  Time will tell.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: mike on August 17, 2012, 04:04:13 PM
Or is venerating Putin Russia now a requirement for all Orthodox Christians?

fixed for you
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: 88Devin12 on August 17, 2012, 04:08:02 PM
There is a big difference between holding a differing view with a Bishop or leader and doing the disgusting bestial and satanic things these women have done.

I personally think there should be a new canon requiring unmarried Bishops to be under the same restrictions as monks when it comes to material items and any gifts should be transferred to the treasury and used for the poor, sick and otherwise needy. No Mercedes or expensive watches for Bishops.

But holding a view like that is not comparable to what these girls did...
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Punch on August 17, 2012, 05:15:50 PM
Devin, you scare me.

Wow that scared me too, that sounded a lot worse than I intended. I was referring to evangelism but it sounded like something much more violent...

Darn.  For a second, I thought there was hope for you  :D
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: stanley123 on August 17, 2012, 06:02:03 PM
I have read the filthy, gutter lyrics which supposedly were sung in a Holy Orthodox Church by this group. If it is true, and these are the lyrics which they sang in a holy Orthodox Church, then I would not oppose  ten years at hard labor in a concentration camp.
The first part of the song is not too bad, but still bad enough. As you scroll down, it gets worse.
I don't know if this is an accurate quote of the lyrics or not, but it is claimed to be so:
http://freepussyriot.org/content/lyrics-songs-pussy-riot
I don't see how a Christian could defend such vulgarity in a Church.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: 88Devin12 on August 17, 2012, 06:16:16 PM
I have read the filthy, gutter lyrics which supposedly were sung in a Holy Orthodox Church by this group. If it is true, and these are the lyrics which they sang in a holy Orthodox Church, then I would not oppose  ten years at hard labor in a concentration camp.
The first part of the song is not too bad, but still bad enough. As you scroll down, it gets worse.
I don't know if this is an accurate quote of the lyrics or not, but it is claimed to be so:
http://freepussyriot.org/content/lyrics-songs-pussy-riot
I don't see how a Christian could defend such vulgarity in a Church.

 :o :o :o :o

Okay, they definitely do belong in jail...
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band
Post by: Green_Umbrella on August 17, 2012, 07:33:16 PM
Apparently the "sentence" has just been handed down--NYT reporting 2 years in prison.

They deserve it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Pan Michał on August 17, 2012, 08:27:05 PM
It jusked striked me, that many people here talking about being biased... are quite biased...

Out from discussion, cause I see mostly two sides - either a) bash Russia, or b) bash Pussy Riot. Both think of themselves as Holders Of Truth. Been there, done that, road to nowhere. I don't feel like moral Ubermensch, so c'ya on the other threads.

ADDED - just one six-verse quote, from Dave Mustaine's song:

"Back when I was just seventeen
I thought that I knew everything
[...]
I was legal now at twenty-one
I knew the way the world should run
[...]
At twenty-five I was surprised
That I was even half-alive"
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Cognomen on August 17, 2012, 08:50:39 PM
I have read the filthy, gutter lyrics which supposedly were sung in a Holy Orthodox Church by this group.

They were a lot less offensive than I was expecting.  Rather tame really, unless being immature and badmouthed is the crux (pun semi-intended) of the offense.   

We hear far more blasphemous "observations" from morons like Bill Maher (well, for those able to endure his inane tirades).
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: 88Devin12 on August 17, 2012, 09:04:16 PM
I have read the filthy, gutter lyrics which supposedly were sung in a Holy Orthodox Church by this group.

They were a lot less offensive than I was expecting.  Rather tame really, unless being immature and badmouthed is the crux (pun semi-intended) of the offense.   

We hear far more blasphemous "observations" from morons like Bill Maher (well, for those able to endure his inane tirades).

Those "women" (they aren't women at all, not even worthy of the term) didn't just make those lyrics, they sang them in the church in front of the iconostasis.

I am very glad they are being sent to that penal colony. If their followers decide to riot and fight against the state (as some are promising), then they shouldn't expect the authorities to exercise restraint.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: augustin717 on August 17, 2012, 09:42:05 PM
I have read the filthy, gutter lyrics which supposedly were sung in a Holy Orthodox Church by this group. If it is true, and these are the lyrics which they sang in a holy Orthodox Church, then I would not oppose  ten years at hard labor in a concentration camp.
The first part of the song is not too bad, but still bad enough. As you scroll down, it gets worse.
I don't know if this is an accurate quote of the lyrics or not, but it is claimed to be so:
http://freepussyriot.org/content/lyrics-songs-pussy-riot
I don't see how a Christian could defend such vulgarity in a Church.
I fail to be scandalized. What's scandalous-actually it isn't, but supposedly it should be-is that those that preach forgiveness etc can only grant it after a few years of jail have been paid for a minor offense.  Talk about love and "economia".
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: 88Devin12 on August 17, 2012, 09:56:02 PM
Just watched the RT video in its article about the sentencing. Apparently the 2 years starts at the moment of their arrest (March 15), so technically they have been given a sentence of a little more than 1 and a half years. Their sentence is to be sent to a women's penal colony for the duration of their sentence.

One of the three was involved in the live-sex act "orgy" in a Moscow Biology Museum, and another one of the three was involved in dumping cockroaches in a courtroom and kissing policewomen in the metro & on streets.

Funny how people defend them seeing as the one involved in the live sex act would have been convicted as a sex offender here in the United States...

Someone has probably already mentioned the topless Ukrainian woman who cut down a crucifix in protest.

It should be no surprise that the irreverent and anti-religious Madonna has come out in support of them.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: podkarpatska on August 17, 2012, 10:21:21 PM
I will say that I had to chuckle at a recent Time Magazine 'summary' of these events. They took great umbrage to the charging of these folks under Russian equivalent of our 'hate crime' laws. Yet, if certain crimes here aren't prosecuted with the higher penalties associated with 'hate crime' laws, many in the US - including a wide range of easily 'outraged' folks of all stripes politically (although more typically those to the middle or left of center....) would have a fit. However distasteful they were, even under our 'hate crime' laws, the type of hooliganism they engaged in probably would not have received more than probation and a fine since they were not directed with bodily harm at a person and no 'real' property damage took place. If not charged under hate crime laws, probably at best a modest fine.

I wonder what the Italians did to the woman who tried to kiss the Pope during Midnight Mass as he entered St. Peter's a few years' back....
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: ialmisry on August 17, 2012, 10:38:15 PM
I have read the filthy, gutter lyrics which supposedly were sung in a Holy Orthodox Church by this group. If it is true, and these are the lyrics which they sang in a holy Orthodox Church, then I would not oppose  ten years at hard labor in a concentration camp.
The first part of the song is not too bad, but still bad enough. As you scroll down, it gets worse.
I don't know if this is an accurate quote of the lyrics or not, but it is claimed to be so:
http://freepussyriot.org/content/lyrics-songs-pussy-riot
I don't see how a Christian could defend such vulgarity in a Church.
I fail to be scandalized. What's scandalous-actually it isn't, but supposedly it should be-is that those that preach forgiveness etc can only grant it after a few years of jail have been paid for a minor offense.  Talk about love and "economia".
Speaking of love and economy, I remember a Yeltsin commercial showing old reel footage of the destruction of Churches, the summary executions, the forced collectivization etc., the commentator pointing out "The Communists haven't even changed their name.  What makes you think they have changed their methods?"

Who made you judge of what is major and minor?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Cognomen on August 17, 2012, 10:49:21 PM
I have read the filthy, gutter lyrics which supposedly were sung in a Holy Orthodox Church by this group.

They were a lot less offensive than I was expecting.  Rather tame really, unless being immature and badmouthed is the crux (pun semi-intended) of the offense.   

We hear far more blasphemous "observations" from morons like Bill Maher (well, for those able to endure his inane tirades).

Those "women" (they aren't women at all, not even worthy of the term) didn't just make those lyrics, they sang them in the church in front of the iconostasis.

I am very glad they are being sent to that penal colony. If their followers decide to riot and fight against the state (as some are promising), then they shouldn't expect the authorities to exercise restraint.

My response was about the lyrics themselves.  I'm well aware of the setting of the lousy performance. 

Still, your parading of un-Christian vitriol and vengeance is becoming a bit too caricatured.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Ionnis on August 17, 2012, 11:32:14 PM
Just watched the RT video in its article about the sentencing. Apparently the 2 years starts at the moment of their arrest (March 15), so technically they have been given a sentence of a little more than 1 and a half years. Their sentence is to be sent to a women's penal colony for the duration of their sentence.

One of the three was involved in the live-sex act "orgy" in a Moscow Biology Museum, and another one of the three was involved in dumping cockroaches in a courtroom and kissing policewomen in the metro & on streets.

Funny how people defend them seeing as the one involved in the live sex act would have been convicted as a sex offender here in the United States...

Someone has probably already mentioned the topless Ukrainian woman who cut down a crucifix in protest.

It should be no surprise that the irreverent and anti-religious Madonna has come out in support of them.

These women are not the real enemy.  People are looking for enemies outside the Church.  You will definitely find some outside, but the dangerous ones, the ones that are doing the real destruction live within.   
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Kerdy on August 18, 2012, 12:30:37 AM
Just watched the RT video in its article about the sentencing. Apparently the 2 years starts at the moment of their arrest (March 15), so technically they have been given a sentence of a little more than 1 and a half years. Their sentence is to be sent to a women's penal colony for the duration of their sentence.

One of the three was involved in the live-sex act "orgy" in a Moscow Biology Museum, and another one of the three was involved in dumping cockroaches in a courtroom and kissing policewomen in the metro & on streets.

Funny how people defend them seeing as the one involved in the live sex act would have been convicted as a sex offender here in the United States...

Someone has probably already mentioned the topless Ukrainian woman who cut down a crucifix in protest.

It should be no surprise that the irreverent and anti-religious Madonna has come out in support of them.

These women are not the real enemy.  People are looking for enemies outside the Church.  You will definitely find some outside, but the dangerous ones, the ones that are doing the real destruction live within.   
There are a lot of real enemies and these women are only three.  I hope they see their error and enter the Church as a member in the future, but for now, they are the enemy. 

I agree the most dangerous are inside, but we disagree on who they are.  The most dangerous of those are the ones who confuse others, water down the truth, make exceptions and excuses (for instance, these women), etc.  All it takes is the slightest detour and you are off the path.  Little by little they erode the Church in the name of progress, changing times, new enlightenment or some other excuse.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: augustin717 on August 18, 2012, 01:15:40 AM
Just watched the RT video in its article about the sentencing. Apparently the 2 years starts at the moment of their arrest (March 15), so technically they have been given a sentence of a little more than 1 and a half years. Their sentence is to be sent to a women's penal colony for the duration of their sentence.

One of the three was involved in the live-sex act "orgy" in a Moscow Biology Museum, and another one of the three was involved in dumping cockroaches in a courtroom and kissing policewomen in the metro & on streets.

Funny how people defend them seeing as the one involved in the live sex act would have been convicted as a sex offender here in the United States...

Someone has probably already mentioned the topless Ukrainian woman who cut down a crucifix in protest.

It should be no surprise that the irreverent and anti-religious Madonna has come out in support of them.

These women are not the real enemy.  People are looking for enemies outside the Church.  You will definitely find some outside, but the dangerous ones, the ones that are doing the real destruction live within.   
There are a lot of real enemies and these women are only three.  I hope they see their error and enter the Church as a member in the future, but for now, they are the enemy. 

I agree the most dangerous are inside, but we disagree on who they are.  The most dangerous of those are the ones who confuse others, water down the truth, make exceptions and excuses (for instance, these women), etc.  All it takes is the slightest detour and you are off the path.  Little by little they erode the Church in the name of progress, changing times, new enlightenment or some other excuse.
What does it mean for you to "be in the church", apart from- excuse my term, I can't think of a better one, fellating certain higher-up's in the hierarchy ? These women are in the church in so far as they are baptized and claim this religion as theirs, still.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Kerdy on August 18, 2012, 01:23:36 AM
Just watched the RT video in its article about the sentencing. Apparently the 2 years starts at the moment of their arrest (March 15), so technically they have been given a sentence of a little more than 1 and a half years. Their sentence is to be sent to a women's penal colony for the duration of their sentence.

One of the three was involved in the live-sex act "orgy" in a Moscow Biology Museum, and another one of the three was involved in dumping cockroaches in a courtroom and kissing policewomen in the metro & on streets.

Funny how people defend them seeing as the one involved in the live sex act would have been convicted as a sex offender here in the United States...

Someone has probably already mentioned the topless Ukrainian woman who cut down a crucifix in protest.

It should be no surprise that the irreverent and anti-religious Madonna has come out in support of them.

These women are not the real enemy.  People are looking for enemies outside the Church.  You will definitely find some outside, but the dangerous ones, the ones that are doing the real destruction live within.   
There are a lot of real enemies and these women are only three.  I hope they see their error and enter the Church as a member in the future, but for now, they are the enemy. 

I agree the most dangerous are inside, but we disagree on who they are.  The most dangerous of those are the ones who confuse others, water down the truth, make exceptions and excuses (for instance, these women), etc.  All it takes is the slightest detour and you are off the path.  Little by little they erode the Church in the name of progress, changing times, new enlightenment or some other excuse.
What does it mean for you to "be in the church", apart from- excuse my term, I can't think of a better one, fellating certain higher-up's in the hierarchy ? These women are in the church in so far as they are baptized and claim this religion as theirs, still.
You already know what I mean, yet you quibble over phraseology.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Fr. Deacon Daniel on August 18, 2012, 02:27:31 AM
The BBC's article is pretty good. Here is a section referring to a statement from the Russian Orthodox Church.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19302986

"It said in a statement: "Without doubting the legitimacy of the court ruling, we ask the state authorities to show mercy for the convicted within the framework of the law in the hopes that they will refrain from repeating their sacrilegious acts."

Mr Putin has himself said the defendants should not be judged too harshly but, after sentencing, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said the president could not intervene in the judicial process.

Opinion polls in Russia have shown little support for Pussy Riot.

One recent poll of Russians released by the Levada research group showed only 6% sympathised, while 51% felt antipathy or had nothing good to say about them."
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: mike on August 18, 2012, 02:44:20 AM
Mr Putin has himself said the defendants should not be judged too harshly but, after sentencing, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said the president could not intervene in the judicial process.

Do you believe in that?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Asteriktos on August 18, 2012, 02:45:41 AM
Longest thread title in forum history?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Fr. Deacon Daniel on August 18, 2012, 03:00:35 AM
Mr Putin has himself said the defendants should not be judged too harshly but, after sentencing, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said the president could not intervene in the judicial process.

Do you believe in that?

If you mean, do I believe Putin said this. Yes, I do. I personally like Putin and I think he has really helped the Orthodox Church grow in Russia. I think he is a good man and his support of the Church will cover many offenses. The fact that a countries leader is an Orthodox Christian that is actively involved in promoting the Truth is admirable. God bless him. It is sad to see that the three members seem to show no remorse for their actions. I also understand your mistrust, Michal. Poland and Russia don't have the best relationship.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Vladik on August 18, 2012, 03:23:43 AM
One catch, they don't live in a Jewish or Muslim nation, they live in an Orthodox one, so they can shove it.

In Russia Judaism, Orthodox Christianity, Islam and Buddhism are called "traditional religions". So Russia is Jewish and Muslim nation as well as the Orthodox one.

Russia is a Federation of Republics. There are Budhist, Muslim and a Jewish Republics and regions. That's why their religions consider to be traditional. But only in their autonomous regions. Those minor ethnics are allowed to preserve their culture. But  Judaism, Islam and Buddhism are not traditional for the Metropolis ("Moscovia").
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Vladik on August 18, 2012, 03:26:21 AM
Pussy Riot sang sacrileges in a sacred - for millions Russian citizens - place. They are guilty.
But the Western propaganda tries to use in a cynical way. That's all.   
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Vladik on August 18, 2012, 03:32:23 AM
It is so funny to look on the pathetic Western whores "stars" who support Pussy Riot.
It is obvious they are tools of the White House's propaganda, that's why I despise them.

Quote
The accused have received support from musicians such as Kate Nash,[48] Red Hot Chili Peppers,[49] Sting,[49] Peter Gabriel,[50] Cornershop,[48] Faith No More,[51] Alex Kapranos of Franz Ferdinand,[48] Neil Tennant of the Pet Shop Boys,[48] Patti Smith,[52] The Beastie Boys,[53] Refused, Zola Jesus,[53] Die Antwoord,[53] Jarvis Cocker,[48] Pete Townshend,[48] The Joy Formidable,[48] Peaches,[51] Madonna,[54] Genesis,[55] Tegan and Sara,[56] Johnny Marr,[48] Courtney Love,[57] Iiro Rantala,[55] Propagandhi,[58] Anti-Flag,[59] Rise Against,[55] Corinne Bailey Rae,[48] Peter Hammill,[60] Kathleen Hanna,[61] Björk,[62] Paul McCartney,[63] Yoko Ono,[50] British comedian Stephen Fry,[64] Mayor of Reykjavík Jón Gnarr[65] and Warren Kinsella.[66]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pussy_Riot
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Babalon on August 18, 2012, 04:31:56 AM
It is so funny to look on the pathetic Western whores "stars" who support Pussy Riot.
It is obvious they are tools of the White House's propaganda, that's why I despise them.

Quote
The accused have received support from musicians such as Kate Nash,[48] Red Hot Chili Peppers,[49] Sting,[49] Peter Gabriel,[50] Cornershop,[48] Faith No More,[51] Alex Kapranos of Franz Ferdinand,[48] Neil Tennant of the Pet Shop Boys,[48] Patti Smith,[52] The Beastie Boys,[53] Refused, Zola Jesus,[53] Die Antwoord,[53] Jarvis Cocker,[48] Pete Townshend,[48] The Joy Formidable,[48] Peaches,[51] Madonna,[54] Genesis,[55] Tegan and Sara,[56] Johnny Marr,[48] Courtney Love,[57] Iiro Rantala,[55] Propagandhi,[58] Anti-Flag,[59] Rise Against,[55] Corinne Bailey Rae,[48] Peter Hammill,[60] Kathleen Hanna,[61] Björk,[62] Paul McCartney,[63] Yoko Ono,[50] British comedian Stephen Fry,[64] Mayor of Reykjavík Jón Gnarr[65] and Warren Kinsella.[66]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pussy_Riot

UH OH. THE ILLUMINATI WITH THEIR HOMO-FASCIST-LUCIFERIAN-ANTI CHRISTIAN AGENDA IS OUT DESTROY US. BOOOOOOOOOOO.

I mean seriously, apart from Courtney Love, they're all fairly respectable. Bought off or not, i can hardly see any of them as white house "tools".
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Vladik on August 18, 2012, 04:43:35 AM
they're all fairly respectable

Madonna Ciccone is respectable?  :D She is an aged whore of Babylon.
All decent people despise her in our society.

(http://fotki.ykt.ru/albums/userpics/30968/42_0_9b2ce_cac9c437_orig.jpg)

Quote
UH OH. THE ILLUMINATI WITH THEIR HOMO-FASCIST-LUCIFERIAN-ANTI CHRISTIAN AGENDA IS OUT DESTROY US. BOOOOOOOOOOO.

It is the Cold War. No Illuminati.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: montalban on August 18, 2012, 05:02:48 AM

They didn't break into the church.

That's simply a quibble. They got into a church for purposes other than what church is meant for.
And you're missing the point.  By all means, punish the band for "disturbing the peace" or whatever.  However, it appears that the punishment is not fitting the crime, in this case. 
That's another matter, though I agree with you based on our sense of justice.

But they (the band) live in a society where they have harder laws.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
Post by: montalban on August 18, 2012, 05:04:23 AM
Quote
Quote
Quote
I don't support the MP, or his greediness, but, this was an insult to all of Orthodoxy, not just the MP.


Shameful, yes.

Punishable by seven years in prison, though?

Seven years?  No.  That's too strict.  

However, it shouldn't be simply dismissed.

Perhaps these "mothers" would benefit from some counciling, religious education or community service.

And that's what the people behind the petition featured in the OP believe, too.  I have a very soft spot for all kinds of civil disobedience (provided there's an actual cause, even if I disagree with it), but even I think this one goes a bit too far, but that's also because I have a very strong sense of the sacred.  

The reaction by the authorities, both secular and religious, is over the top, IMHO.

And what were they protesting about?

- fixed quote tags to give some context. S1389
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: mike on August 18, 2012, 05:10:23 AM
That's simply a quibble. They got into a church for purposes other than what church is meant for.

Like car washing? Or fashion shows? Or birthday parties? Have you ever been in that Church?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Babalon on August 18, 2012, 05:40:39 AM
they're all fairly respectable

Madonna Ciccone is respectable?  :D She is an aged whore of Babylon.
All decent people despise her in our society.

(http://fotki.ykt.ru/albums/userpics/30968/42_0_9b2ce_cac9c437_orig.jpg)

Quote
UH OH. THE ILLUMINATI WITH THEIR HOMO-FASCIST-LUCIFERIAN-ANTI CHRISTIAN AGENDA IS OUT DESTROY US. BOOOOOOOOOOO.

It is the Cold War. No Illuminati.

I said fairly. I respect her record of pissing off the uptight folk. She's got quite an impressive resume in that field, but as far as musicianship and talent? Not a chance. Actually, i don't "like" anyone on that list you mentioned, yet none of the people i consider to be REAL dangers to human decency appeared. So i ain't trippin, yo'.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Nigula Qian Zishi on August 18, 2012, 10:40:47 AM
Pussy Riot forgiven by Russian Orthodox Church (http://newyork.newsday.com/entertainment/pussy-riot-forgiven-by-russian-orthodox-church-1.3912620)
Tikhon Shevkunov, who heads Moscow's Sretensky Monastery and is widely believed to be the Russian president's spiritual counselor, said on state television Saturday that his church forgave the singers right after their "punk prayer" in the Christ the Savior Cathedral in Moscow in February.

"The church has been sometimes accused of not forgiving them," the bearded and bespectacled cleric said. "We did forgive them from the very start. But such actions should be cut short by society and authorities."

Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: augustin717 on August 18, 2012, 10:46:10 AM
Pussy Riot forgiven by Russian Orthodox Church (http://newyork.newsday.com/entertainment/pussy-riot-forgiven-by-russian-orthodox-church-1.3912620)
Tikhon Shevkunov, who heads Moscow's Sretensky Monastery and is widely believed to be the Russian president's spiritual counselor, said on state television Saturday that his church forgave the singers right after their "punk prayer" in the Christ the Savior Cathedral in Moscow in February.

"The church has been sometimes accused of not forgiving them," the bearded and bespectacled cleric said. "We did forgive them from the very start. But such actions should be cut short by society and authorities."


Also Stalin didn't have any personal enemies.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Kerdy on August 18, 2012, 11:20:52 AM
Pussy Riot forgiven by Russian Orthodox Church (http://newyork.newsday.com/entertainment/pussy-riot-forgiven-by-russian-orthodox-church-1.3912620)
Tikhon Shevkunov, who heads Moscow's Sretensky Monastery and is widely believed to be the Russian president's spiritual counselor, said on state television Saturday that his church forgave the singers right after their "punk prayer" in the Christ the Savior Cathedral in Moscow in February.

"The church has been sometimes accused of not forgiving them," the bearded and bespectacled cleric said. "We did forgive them from the very start. But such actions should be cut short by society and authorities."


People just want to be angry regardless of the facts.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Kerdy on August 18, 2012, 11:21:35 AM
Pussy Riot forgiven by Russian Orthodox Church (http://newyork.newsday.com/entertainment/pussy-riot-forgiven-by-russian-orthodox-church-1.3912620)
Tikhon Shevkunov, who heads Moscow's Sretensky Monastery and is widely believed to be the Russian president's spiritual counselor, said on state television Saturday that his church forgave the singers right after their "punk prayer" in the Christ the Savior Cathedral in Moscow in February.

"The church has been sometimes accused of not forgiving them," the bearded and bespectacled cleric said. "We did forgive them from the very start. But such actions should be cut short by society and authorities."


Also Stalin didn't have any personal enemies.
Ghandi wore glasses.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Kerdy on August 18, 2012, 11:23:36 AM
That's simply a quibble. They got into a church for purposes other than what church is meant for.

Like car washing? Or fashion shows? Or birthday parties? Have you ever been in that Church?
Please research "elements of a crime" with a focus on "intent."
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: mike on August 19, 2012, 12:17:48 PM
I've read somewhere in the Tsarist Russia maximum penalty for the crime of blasphemy was a month in prison.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: 88Devin12 on August 19, 2012, 04:27:18 PM
I've read somewhere in the Tsarist Russia maximum penalty for the crime of blasphemy was a month in prison.

And in the Roman Empire I think it was exile (when unrepented), we definitely have our choice of disciplinary actions to choose from.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on August 19, 2012, 04:38:56 PM
Pussy Riot forgiven by Russian Orthodox Church (http://newyork.newsday.com/entertainment/pussy-riot-forgiven-by-russian-orthodox-church-1.3912620)
Tikhon Shevkunov, who heads Moscow's Sretensky Monastery and is widely believed to be the Russian president's spiritual counselor, said on state television Saturday that his church forgave the singers right after their "punk prayer" in the Christ the Savior Cathedral in Moscow in February.

"The church has been sometimes accused of not forgiving them," the bearded and bespectacled cleric said. "We did forgive them from the very start. But such actions should be cut short by society and authorities."


People just want to be angry regardless of the facts.
I lost my Kerdy de-coder ring.  Can you translate that for me?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Kerdy on August 19, 2012, 07:04:57 PM
Pussy Riot forgiven by Russian Orthodox Church (http://newyork.newsday.com/entertainment/pussy-riot-forgiven-by-russian-orthodox-church-1.3912620)
Tikhon Shevkunov, who heads Moscow's Sretensky Monastery and is widely believed to be the Russian president's spiritual counselor, said on state television Saturday that his church forgave the singers right after their "punk prayer" in the Christ the Savior Cathedral in Moscow in February.

"The church has been sometimes accused of not forgiving them," the bearded and bespectacled cleric said. "We did forgive them from the very start. But such actions should be cut short by society and authorities."


People just want to be angry regardless of the facts.
I lost my Kerdy de-coder ring.  Can you translate that for me?
No code needed.

Some people simply want to be angry and will remain angry no matter what, even if they are shown to be incorrect.  For instance, angry with the actions of the Church, even though there is nothing to be angry over, i.e., not asking for compassion during sentencing even though they did.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: stanley123 on August 19, 2012, 08:57:06 PM
I've read somewhere in the Tsarist Russia maximum penalty for the crime of blasphemy was a month in prison.
In Germany today you can get three years in prison for committing  defamatory mischief at a place dedicated to the religious worship of a religious association.
http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#StGBengl_000P166
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Balthasar on August 20, 2012, 07:37:11 AM
These attention seeker ugly little brats have succeeded in getting what they've wanted: attention. I saw and heard their rants from the cathedral, and they look and sound like devil. The "activist" boyfreind of one of these evil women tries hard to speak with the British accent. Even the name of the gang band is English. How shameful it must be for Russians to immitate the junk culture of the West! Please someone teach them a good lesson they won't ever forget. How about sending them to North Pole?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Νεκτάριος on August 20, 2012, 09:32:11 AM
These attention seeker ugly little brats have succeeded in getting what they've wanted: attention. I saw and heard their rants from the cathedral, and they look and sound like devil. The "activist" boyfreind of one of these evil women tries hard to speak with the British accent. Even the name of the gang band is English. How shameful it must be for Russians to immitate the junk culture of the West! Please someone teach them a good lesson they won't ever forget. How about sending them to North Pole?

Islam is the evil religion of intolerance and hatred.  English is trendy.  A lot of things all over the world are in English.  Realistically if you want to communicate with anybody from outside the CIS, you had better learn English. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Vladik on August 20, 2012, 10:27:05 AM
tries hard to speak with the British accent. Even the name of the gang band is English.

What's wrong with trying to speak pure English? As for me, I'm trying to get rid of Americanisms in both lexicon and accent.  

Quote
How shameful it must be for Russians to immitate the junk culture of the West!

Agreed. Do Americans call it "wonnabe"?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: vamrat on August 20, 2012, 10:46:35 AM

Quote
How shameful it must be for Russians to immitate the junk culture of the West!

Agreed. Does Americans call it "wonnabe"?

Yeah, like totally in the 90's.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: bkovacs on August 21, 2012, 04:13:03 AM
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4212934.html
What the western media failed to mention!.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Νεκτάριος on August 21, 2012, 05:52:15 AM
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4212934.html
What the western media failed to mention!.

Nice try, but wrong.  From what I could tell about the author from searching around, he doesn't speak Russian nor has he lived in the CIS.  So the idea that he somehow has some secret insight that the "Western media" (of which he is presumably a part) missed is silly. 

The fact of the matter is that the ladies in question claim they are Orthodox Christians.  Unless you can produce an official excommunication to call them unorthodox is libel.  They were protesting the relationship between Edinaya Rossiya and the Orthodox Church, wishing for the Church to not be co-opted by the Kremlin.  This is a completely different scenario than a group of non-Orthodox people protesting the existence of Orthodoxy from within an Orthodox Cathedral.  The other idea that was simply laughable in the linked article is that Russia is somehow a religious society.  Pretty much every study I've seen puts active church attendance in the 1-3% range.  To call Pussy Riot Soviet is also illogical - the two main people that protested against, Putin and Patr. Gundyaev who were themselves cogs in the Soviet system and who repeatedly use neo-Soviet imagery in their speeches. 

The problem that Pussy Riot and Femen have are their methods.  All normal methods of civil society are broken in the CIS, so people tend towards extremism.     
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Gorazd on August 21, 2012, 07:22:01 AM
Let us please remember one important difference: Femen sees religion as an obstacle to women's equality. Pussy Riot on the other hand consider themselves Orthodox Christians, they just don't recognise the MP's leadership as the only authority to interpret Orthodox tradition.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Gorazd on August 21, 2012, 07:30:05 AM
I've read somewhere in the Tsarist Russia maximum penalty for the crime of blasphemy was a month in prison.
In Germany today you can get three years in prison for committing  defamatory mischief at a place dedicated to the religious worship of a religious association.
http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#StGBengl_000P166
"Disturbing the public peace" is the key. The whole thing will be considered criminal only if it leads to mass riots in the streets or similar.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Balthasar on August 21, 2012, 07:40:54 AM
A couple of decades ago, the West exported communism and Vodka to destroy Orthodox Christian souls in Russia, now it's attempting with music and sexual virusus. The android woman who calls herself madonna >:( actively engaged in promoting homosexuality ain't a coincidence. The war against Orthodox souls continues.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: montalban on August 21, 2012, 08:12:29 AM
That's simply a quibble. They got into a church for purposes other than what church is meant for.

Like car washing? Or fashion shows? Or birthday parties? Have you ever been in that Church?

No. But I'm unaware of Orthodox Churches that are 'open' for anyone to walk in and do a protest song
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Vladik on August 21, 2012, 08:55:53 AM
Pussy Riot ... consider themselves Orthodox Christians

LOL
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: vamrat on August 21, 2012, 09:11:11 AM
I've read somewhere in the Tsarist Russia maximum penalty for the crime of blasphemy was a month in prison.
In Germany today you can get three years in prison for committing  defamatory mischief at a place dedicated to the religious worship of a religious association.
http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#StGBengl_000P166
"Disturbing the public peace" is the key. The whole thing will be considered criminal only if it leads to mass riots in the streets or similar.

Yeah.  If you enter a Church and make a mockery of it you are fine so long as it doesn't lead to riots.  But one hakenkreuz on a model airplane?  Up the chimneys with you!
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Pilgrim72 on August 21, 2012, 09:36:20 AM
Oh please. Can we stop with the anti-Western rhetoric already? Moscow is just as much if not more of a moral cesspool than any Western city. Heck, the same can be said about a provincial city like Irkutsk--and please don't tell me the junkies passed out left and right on the streets are America's fault. And if you think the "West" alone was capable of ideologically colonizing "Holy Russia," then you have a very low opinion of Russians, methinks. Deal with it--Russia as a whole was never as holy as you imagine it to have been.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: mike on August 21, 2012, 01:37:15 PM
the West exported communism and Vodka to destroy Orthodox Christian souls in Russia

Vodka was exported to Russia? Why to export sand to Sahara?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Pan Michał on August 21, 2012, 02:16:38 PM
the West exported communism and Vodka to destroy Orthodox Christian souls in Russia

Vodka was exported to Russia? Why to export sand to Sahara?

Up until then, they were using spirit. Vodka has softened them up.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: 88Devin12 on August 21, 2012, 02:23:33 PM
Abbot Tryphon: "No such thing as sacrilege in the west" about the Pussy Riot group & reactions.
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/morningoffering/no_such_thing_as_sacrilege_in_the_west
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: 88Devin12 on August 21, 2012, 04:25:00 PM
Madonna has apparently stomped on an Orthodox crucifix at her concert in St. Petersburg, in addition to openly promoting homosexuality.
Title: What do these women believe in?
Post by: Marcin on August 22, 2012, 05:22:33 AM
Pussy Riot ... consider themselves Orthodox Christians, they just don't recognise the MP's leadership as the only authority to interpret Orthodox tradition.

If so, what is their interpretation of Orthodox tradition?

They are not isolated individuals who develop their own ideas. They are part of a large movement, and years long members of a radical community.

It is not very productive to focus on their personalities at the expense of understanding their worldview. And they with their friends do not hide whose thought inspired them.

One example is Slavoj Zizek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavoj_%C5%BDi%C5%BEek)  (Zhizhek), another is Michel Foucault (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Foucault). Let me quote from Wikipedia:

Quote
Žižek is an atheist. He has said he does not consider religion an enemy but rather one of the fields of struggle. He has also referred to himself as a "Christian materialist". Žižek believes the universalist aspect of Christianity should be secularized into militant egalitarianism, against the "pagan notion of destiny". This universalism he derives from what he perceives as the alleged Christian death of God: God died on the cross and lives on as the "Holy Spirit", that is, in human community. ... He has written many pieces on the reinterpretation of the religious and the theological such as The Puppet and the Dwarf, On Belief and The Fragile Absolute.

Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Vladik on August 22, 2012, 05:32:17 AM
the West exported communism and Vodka to destroy Orthodox Christian souls in Russia

Vodka was exported to Russia? Why to export sand to Sahara?

Alcoholism within the Polish community.pdf   (http://eeac.org.uk/Reports/Alcoholism.pdf)

You are not worthy to be a mod, since you are troll not a man of honour.
(http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/Themes/Pascha2010/images/warnwarn.gif)
And you, sir, are in no position to make such personal attacks on one of our posters, be he a moderator or not. You are therefore receiving this warning to last for the next 60 days. If you wish to appeal this warning, please send me a private message.

- PeterTheAleut
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Pan Michał on August 22, 2012, 05:50:43 AM
Alcoholism within the Polish community.pdf   (http://eeac.org.uk/Reports/Alcoholism.pdf)

You are not worthy to be a mod, since you are troll not a man of honour.

Which reminds me this oldie - you know what's the difference between alcoholic and bon vivant? The former is addicted degenerate, the latter is rich addicted degenerate. ;)
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: montalban on August 22, 2012, 08:48:55 AM
Oh please. Can we stop with the anti-Western rhetoric already? Moscow is just as much if not more of a moral cesspool than any Western city. Heck, the same can be said about a provincial city like Irkutsk--and please don't tell me the junkies passed out left and right on the streets are America's fault. And if you think the "West" alone was capable of ideologically colonizing "Holy Russia," then you have a very low opinion of Russians, methinks. Deal with it--Russia as a whole was never as holy as you imagine it to have been.

The Guardian disagrees:
The west's hypocrisy over Pussy Riot is breathtaking
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/21/west-hypocrisy-pussy-riot?newsfeed=true
Title: Re: What do these women believe in?
Post by: Gorazd on August 22, 2012, 09:12:16 AM
It is not very productive to focus on their personalities at the expense of understanding their worldview. And they with their friends do not hide whose thought inspired them.

One example is Slavoj Zizek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavoj_%C5%BDi%C5%BEek)  (Zhizhek), another is Michel Foucault (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Foucault).

You raise an important question, unfortunately I cannot answer in detail now, since I am still on the way back from Ukraine. However, I would want us to be careful. Just because Zizek and Foucault have expressed support for Pussy Riot, does not mean that Pussy Riot share their ideologies.

I would suggest we make statements about doctrines and views of Pussy Riot only on the base of their own statements, not on who has expressed support for them during the trial.

Btw, does anyone here know Elisabeth Behr-Sigel?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Pilgrim72 on August 22, 2012, 09:36:40 AM
The Guardian disagrees:
The west's hypocrisy over Pussy Riot is breathtaking
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/21/west-hypocrisy-pussy-riot?newsfeed=true

Oy. Sad day when I have to respond to something from the Guardian. I fail to see your point or, frankly, that of the author. The West has many, many problems. Including increasingly incarceration for thought-crimes. I think it is a vile and disturbing trend. There are many who also feel this way, and speak out against it. How is this hypocrisy? Because we have problems we shouldn't have opinions on what goes on elsewhere? Have you been to Russia? Have you seen the blatant materialism and hedonism among the younger set? Oh right--that's all the West's fault. I guess the crass consumerism increasingly exhibited in China is also the West's fault. This is a human condition, a failing, not a geographic location.
Title: Re: What do these women believe in?
Post by: Pilgrim72 on August 22, 2012, 09:38:01 AM
You raise an important question, unfortunately I cannot answer in detail now, since I am still on the way back from Ukraine. However, I would want us to be careful. Just because Zizek and Foucault have expressed support for Pussy Riot, does not mean that Pussy Riot share their ideologies.

Foucalt dies in 1984. I somehow doubt he has feelings one way or another.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: podkarpatska on August 22, 2012, 09:40:17 AM
The Guardian disagrees:
The west's hypocrisy over Pussy Riot is breathtaking
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/21/west-hypocrisy-pussy-riot?newsfeed=true

Oy. Sad day when I have to respond to something from the Guardian. I fail to see your point or, frankly, that of the author. The West has many, many problems. Including increasingly incarceration for thought-crimes. I think it is a vile and disturbing trend. There are many who also feel this way, and speak out against it. How is this hypocrisy? Because we have problems we shouldn't have opinions on what goes on elsewhere? Have you been to Russia? Have you seen the blatant materialism and hedonism among the younger set? Oh right--that's all the West's fault. I guess the crass consumerism increasingly exhibited in China is also the West's fault. This is a human condition, a failing, not a geographic location.

What the punkers did was shocking, blasphemous and - frankly childish.

How the Russian state reacted was indicative of a far greater danger. Had they been punished as they would have been in the United States or Great Britain, they would not have become a 'cause celebre' around the world, thereby allowing secular humanists and non-believers to 'tut tut' about the Church, State and the all too complex nature of the historical relationship between the two in any western culture. (By western I mean those states who owe some debt to the civilization of the Hellenes and the Romans - not just the Church of Rome.)

Unless of course you secretly yearn for a church state hegemony in which all manners of human conduct and foreign policy are conducted in accordance with a theocratic heavy hand. Oh wait - there is such a modern state - Iran. Is Russia to become the 'orthodox' (intentional use of a small 'o' folks) equivalent?

I suspect Putin and his crew have intentionally hijacked the Church - a Church emerging from the overt persecution by the Soviet State willing to reassert her historic role in the Russian culture and people (but at what cost I might ask?) - in order to restore the oligarchy - wrapped in a velvet glove rather than a naked iron fist.
Title: Re: What do these women believe in?
Post by: Marcin on August 22, 2012, 09:43:14 AM
However, I would want us to be careful. Just because Zizek and Foucault have expressed support for Pussy Riot, does not mean that Pussy Riot share their ideologies.

I am being careful and I did not write my post because Zizek or Foucault supported PR. (Foucault is dead BTW (http://foucaultsminions.blogspot.com/2009/03/foucaults-suicidal-death-drive.html))

The reason is that PR read these authors (especially Zizek) and that their statements seem to reflect the theory and practice of these two revolutionaries.

Pussy Riot/Voina members are not original thinkers, they are young zealous activists, same way as young Bolshevik party members were able to express basic tenets of the doctrine, yet were not capable to develop it on their own or claim authorship.

It is enough to compare Zizek theories with PR statements and actions to see the connection. Same way as you can recognize Marxists by their words and deeds.

Why I think it is important, to resist a revolution or to protect the Church, you need to understand with whom you are dealing. So read a little, please.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Pilgrim72 on August 22, 2012, 09:49:56 AM
Pokarpatska gets it.  Nice post :-X
Title: Re: What do these women believe in?
Post by: Marcin on August 22, 2012, 09:57:51 AM
Btw, does anyone here know Elisabeth Behr-Sigel?

Why do you ask? Is Elisabeth Behr-Sigel support for the ordination of women into priesthood (http://www.stnina.org/online-journal/feature-articles/debt-gratitude-elisabeth-behr-sigel) related to Pussy Riot?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Marcin on August 22, 2012, 10:12:00 AM
What the punkers did was shocking, blasphemous and - frankly childish.

Demonic behavior is often like that, as CS Lewis has depicted in his Trilogy. (Especially in Perelandra)
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Green_Umbrella on August 22, 2012, 12:31:50 PM
Moscow is just as much if not more of a moral cesspool than any Western city.

They do not have homosexual pride parades through the streets of Moscow.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: 88Devin12 on August 22, 2012, 12:35:36 PM
Abbot Tryphon's thoughts:
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/morningoffering/no_such_thing_as_sacrilege_in_the_west

Frederica Mathews-Greene's thoughts:
http://www.frederica.com/writings/history-blasphemy-and-russia.html
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Punch on August 22, 2012, 12:59:36 PM
Moscow is just as much if not more of a moral cesspool than any Western city.

They do not have homosexual pride parades through the streets of Moscow.

OMON
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Pilgrim72 on August 22, 2012, 01:02:04 PM
They do not have homosexual pride parades through the streets of Moscow.
Russia has one of the highest abortion rates in the entire world. And prostitution is rampant. And so is drug abuse. And alcoholism is so bad the average life expectancy for a man is 64 years (up significantly since the 1990s, when it was in the low 50s for the same reason). But I guess you're fine with that as long as the gays stay out of sight. I'm done with this thread.  
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: 88Devin12 on August 22, 2012, 01:30:46 PM
Moscow is just as much if not more of a moral cesspool than any Western city.

They do not have homosexual pride parades through the streets of Moscow.

I think that is one good thing, but they have far more problems to deal with than that. Gay Pride pales in comparison to the other issues they have to deal with.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Green_Umbrella on August 22, 2012, 02:02:29 PM
They do not have homosexual pride parades through the streets of Moscow.
Russia has one of the highest abortion rates in the entire world. And prostitution is rampant. And so is drug abuse. And alcoholism is so bad the average life expectancy for a man is 64 years (up significantly since the 1990s, when it was in the low 50s for the same reason). But I guess you're fine with that as long as the gays stay out of sight. I'm done with this thread.  

Do they have parades in Moscow celebrating abortion, prostitution, drug use, alcoholism or a low life expectancy?

They do not. Your done with this thread...goodbye. Do not not let the door hit you on the way out.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Νεκτάριος on August 22, 2012, 02:24:11 PM
They do not have homosexual pride parades through the streets of Moscow.
Russia has one of the highest abortion rates in the entire world. And prostitution is rampant. And so is drug abuse. And alcoholism is so bad the average life expectancy for a man is 64 years (up significantly since the 1990s, when it was in the low 50s for the same reason). But I guess you're fine with that as long as the gays stay out of sight. I'm done with this thread.  

Do they have parades in Moscow celebrating abortion, prostitution, drug use, alcoholism or a low life expectancy?

They do not. Your done with this thread...goodbye. Do not not let the door hit you on the way out.

In Russian the idiomatic way to say drunken debauchery, abortion and low life expectancy is жизнь.   
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Pilgrim72 on August 22, 2012, 02:25:55 PM
Green-Umbrella, you're quite right, they don't have parades for those things. What's with the obsession over parades, anyway??? You made me smile.;D
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Marcin on August 22, 2012, 02:32:39 PM
In Russian the idiomatic way to say drunken debauchery, abortion and low life expectancy is жизнь.   

Are you Greek?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: mike on August 22, 2012, 02:41:06 PM
In Russian the idiomatic way to say drunken debauchery, abortion and low life expectancy is жизнь.   

Good one.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Marcin on August 22, 2012, 02:43:25 PM
In Russian the idiomatic way to say drunken debauchery, abortion and low life expectancy is жизнь.   

Good one.

Russians are sinful people
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Pan Michał on August 22, 2012, 03:03:28 PM
In Russian the idiomatic way to say drunken debauchery, abortion and low life expectancy is жизнь.   

How christian.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Νεκτάριος on August 22, 2012, 03:18:45 PM
In Russian the idiomatic way to say drunken debauchery, abortion and low life expectancy is жизнь.   

How christian.

Just daily life living in Eastern Ukraine. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Pan Michał on August 22, 2012, 03:20:24 PM
Just daily life living in Eastern Ukraine. 

How christian.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Νεκτάριος on August 22, 2012, 03:24:11 PM
Just daily life living in Eastern Ukraine. 

How christian.

Come visit and see for yourself. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Pan Michał on August 22, 2012, 03:33:12 PM
Come visit and see for yourself. 

See what? Drunken debauchery, abortion, low life expectancy? It takes me a minute to go outside or turn on TV, don't need to go anywhere.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: JamesR on August 22, 2012, 03:33:41 PM
Moscow is just as much if not more of a moral cesspool than any Western city.

They do not have homosexual pride parades through the streets of Moscow.

Probably because they are afraid of getting shot in the face after years of lousy government? Whereas in the West if the police even beat us it becomes a media outcry that gains nationwide attention.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Green_Umbrella on August 22, 2012, 03:38:37 PM
Green-Umbrella, you're quite right, they don't have parades for those things. What's with the obsession over parades, anyway??? You made me smile.;D

Oh, you are too funny. Your attitude is formed by the homosexual lobbyists throwing money around to politicians. The television sitcom writer and the leftist college proffesor. It is not God, the scripture or the church fathers.

What an age we live in when a so called ¨Christian¨ will not say they oppose a homosexual parade through a city. Yeah well, as you turn your blind eye to the open celebration of this sin young people will be influenced by it. They will go down that road and destroy themselves both spiritualy and physically.

So keep smiling as you serve your master of lies.

Qui tacet consentire     
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Νεκτάριος on August 22, 2012, 03:41:45 PM
Green-Umbrella, you're quite right, they don't have parades for those things. What's with the obsession over parades, anyway??? You made me smile.;D

Oh, you are too funny. Your attitude is formed by the homosexual lobbyists throwing money around to politicians. The television sitcom writer and the leftist college proffesor. It is not God, the scripture or the church fathers.

What an age we live in when a so called ¨Christian¨ will not say they oppose a homosexual parade through a city. Yeah well, as you turn your blind eye to the open celebration of this sin young people will be influenced by it. They will go down that road and destroy themselves both spiritualy and physically.

So keep smiling as you serve your master of lies.

Qui tacet consentire     

I haven't owned or watched a TV in years, and the professors with whom I've staid in touch with over the years are mostly practicing Christians.   :laugh:
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: sheenj on August 22, 2012, 04:01:01 PM
Green-Umbrella, you're quite right, they don't have parades for those things. What's with the obsession over parades, anyway??? You made me smile.;D

Oh, you are too funny. Your attitude is formed by the homosexual lobbyists throwing money around to politicians. The television sitcom writer and the leftist college proffesor. It is not God, the scripture or the church fathers.

What an age we live in when a so called ¨Christian¨ will not say they oppose a homosexual parade through a city. Yeah well, as you turn your blind eye to the open celebration of this sin young people will be influenced by it. They will go down that road and destroy themselves both spiritualy and physically.

So keep smiling as you serve your master of lies.

Qui tacet consentire     
Letting other people voice their opinions, no matter how wrong, is now unchristian?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Marcin on August 22, 2012, 04:03:46 PM
the professors with whom I've staid in touch with over the years are mostly practicing Christians.   :laugh:

May I ask? I am curious, what is your religion?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Punch on August 22, 2012, 04:07:02 PM
the professors with whom I've staid in touch with over the years are mostly practicing Christians.   :laugh:

May I ask? I am curious, what is your religion?

LOL
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Νεκτάριος on August 22, 2012, 04:09:15 PM
the professors with whom I've staid in touch with over the years are mostly practicing Christians.   :laugh:

May I ask? I am curious, what is your religion?

Irrelevant to the discussion. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Marcin on August 22, 2012, 04:20:15 PM
the professors with whom I've staid in touch with over the years are mostly practicing Christians.   :laugh:

May I ask? I am curious, what is your religion?

Irrelevant to the discussion. 

It would make it easier for me to chose the arguments. I am new to the forum so I do not know your previous posts. Of course I can look them up and figure out your beliefs, hmm ...
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Νεκτάριος on August 22, 2012, 04:36:49 PM
the professors with whom I've staid in touch with over the years are mostly practicing Christians.   :laugh:

May I ask? I am curious, what is your religion?

Irrelevant to the discussion. 

It would make it easier for me to chose the arguments. I am new to the forum so I do not know your previous posts. Of course I can look them up and figure out your beliefs, hmm ...

Oh now this has me curious.  How would you respond differently were I to profess Zoroastrianism as opposed to Animism? 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Marcin on August 22, 2012, 05:07:23 PM
Oh now this has me curious.  How would you respond differently were I to profess Zoroastrianism as opposed to Animism? 

OK, you can keep your "secret"
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: mike on August 22, 2012, 05:19:34 PM
Or you can try reading some of his posts. Especially the ones in the 'Faith Issues' or 'Liturgy' sections.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: 88Devin12 on August 22, 2012, 07:55:12 PM
Frederica Mathewes-Green has touched on the controversy in her latest installment of her podcast:
http://audio.ancientfaith.com/frederica/fhn_2012-08-22.mp3
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Green_Umbrella on August 22, 2012, 08:50:27 PM
Green-Umbrella, you're quite right, they don't have parades for those things. What's with the obsession over parades, anyway??? You made me smile.;D

Oh, you are too funny. Your attitude is formed by the homosexual lobbyists throwing money around to politicians. The television sitcom writer and the leftist college proffesor. It is not God, the scripture or the church fathers.

What an age we live in when a so called ¨Christian¨ will not say they oppose a homosexual parade through a city. Yeah well, as you turn your blind eye to the open celebration of this sin young people will be influenced by it. They will go down that road and destroy themselves both spiritualy and physically.

So keep smiling as you serve your master of lies.

Qui tacet consentire     
Letting other people voice their opinions, no matter how wrong, is now unchristian?

Parades are not  voicing an opinion. Parades are promotions and celebrations. The last time I checked Christians were supposed to love your neighbor as yourself or has that been changed for political correctness?

Does it now read love your neighbor up to the point you might offend him and then be quiet? No. To be opposed to the promotion and celebration of sin is very Christian. I see nothing loving or caring in your position. Sure, throw the drunk another bottle. Let him kill himself. We do not want to offend him. That is your attitude.

Who here would imagine such a scene as this...

¨Paul of Tarsus, the homosexuals are having a parade in Corinth.¨

¨Uh, well...we have other problems in Corinth.¨

(chuckles)

 Right. It is too absurd to even imagine. You can bet he would have called that out and made known his opposition.  But he was a Christian in more than name only. He knew what side of the river he was on unlike some people here. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Punch on August 22, 2012, 08:59:06 PM
Or you can try reading some of his posts. Especially the ones in the 'Faith Issues' or 'Liturgy' sections.

Not sure that would help.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: HabteSelassie on August 22, 2012, 09:01:04 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

(http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt57/panic-girl13/gifs/lame.gif)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: 88Devin12 on August 22, 2012, 09:08:55 PM
Green-Umbrella, you're quite right, they don't have parades for those things. What's with the obsession over parades, anyway??? You made me smile.;D

Oh, you are too funny. Your attitude is formed by the homosexual lobbyists throwing money around to politicians. The television sitcom writer and the leftist college proffesor. It is not God, the scripture or the church fathers.

What an age we live in when a so called ¨Christian¨ will not say they oppose a homosexual parade through a city. Yeah well, as you turn your blind eye to the open celebration of this sin young people will be influenced by it. They will go down that road and destroy themselves both spiritualy and physically.

So keep smiling as you serve your master of lies.

Qui tacet consentire     
Letting other people voice their opinions, no matter how wrong, is now unchristian?

Parades are not  voicing an opinion. Parades are promotions and celebrations. The last time I checked Christians were supposed to love your neighbor as yourself or has that been changed for political correctness?

Does it now read love your neighbor up to the point you might offend him and then be quiet? No. To be opposed to the promotion and celebration of sin is very Christian. I see nothing loving or caring in your position. Sure, throw the drunk another bottle. Let him kill himself. We do not want to offend him. That is your attitude.

Who here would imagine such a scene as this...

¨Paul of Tarsus, the homosexuals are having a parade in Corinth.¨

¨Uh, well...we have other problems in Corinth.¨

(chuckles)

 Right. It is too absurd to even imagine. You can bet he would have called that out and made known his opposition.  But he was a Christian in more than name only. He knew what side of the river he was on unlike some people here. 

That is exactly the problem! It is disgusting when people promote homosexual relations. Homosexual relations are a sin, and should never be promoted or celebrated.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Green_Umbrella on August 22, 2012, 09:40:21 PM
Green-Umbrella, you're quite right, they don't have parades for those things. What's with the obsession over parades, anyway??? You made me smile.;D

Oh, you are too funny. Your attitude is formed by the homosexual lobbyists throwing money around to politicians. The television sitcom writer and the leftist college proffesor. It is not God, the scripture or the church fathers.

What an age we live in when a so called ¨Christian¨ will not say they oppose a homosexual parade through a city. Yeah well, as you turn your blind eye to the open celebration of this sin young people will be influenced by it. They will go down that road and destroy themselves both spiritualy and physically.

So keep smiling as you serve your master of lies.

Qui tacet consentire     
Letting other people voice their opinions, no matter how wrong, is now unchristian?

Parades are not  voicing an opinion. Parades are promotions and celebrations. The last time I checked Christians were supposed to love your neighbor as yourself or has that been changed for political correctness?

Does it now read love your neighbor up to the point you might offend him and then be quiet? No. To be opposed to the promotion and celebration of sin is very Christian. I see nothing loving or caring in your position. Sure, throw the drunk another bottle. Let him kill himself. We do not want to offend him. That is your attitude.

Who here would imagine such a scene as this...

¨Paul of Tarsus, the homosexuals are having a parade in Corinth.¨

¨Uh, well...we have other problems in Corinth.¨

(chuckles)

 Right. It is too absurd to even imagine. You can bet he would have called that out and made known his opposition.  But he was a Christian in more than name only. He knew what side of the river he was on unlike some people here. 

That is exactly the problem! It is disgusting when people promote homosexual relations. Homosexual relations are a sin, and should never be promoted or celebrated.

Thank you.

I oppose the celebration and promotion of homosexuality. So I am opposed to gay pride parades. Not the homosexual. I see nothing unchristian in my position. I do see something unchristian with acting like there is nothing wrong with them. There is.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: sheenj on August 22, 2012, 09:55:09 PM
Green-Umbrella, you're quite right, they don't have parades for those things. What's with the obsession over parades, anyway??? You made me smile.;D

Oh, you are too funny. Your attitude is formed by the homosexual lobbyists throwing money around to politicians. The television sitcom writer and the leftist college proffesor. It is not God, the scripture or the church fathers.

What an age we live in when a so called ¨Christian¨ will not say they oppose a homosexual parade through a city. Yeah well, as you turn your blind eye to the open celebration of this sin young people will be influenced by it. They will go down that road and destroy themselves both spiritualy and physically.

So keep smiling as you serve your master of lies.

Qui tacet consentire     
Letting other people voice their opinions, no matter how wrong, is now unchristian?

Parades are not  voicing an opinion. Parades are promotions and celebrations. The last time I checked Christians were supposed to love your neighbor as yourself or has that been changed for political correctness?

Does it now read love your neighbor up to the point you might offend him and then be quiet? No. To be opposed to the promotion and celebration of sin is very Christian. I see nothing loving or caring in your position. Sure, throw the drunk another bottle. Let him kill himself. We do not want to offend him. That is your attitude.

Who here would imagine such a scene as this...

¨Paul of Tarsus, the homosexuals are having a parade in Corinth.¨

¨Uh, well...we have other problems in Corinth.¨

(chuckles)

 Right. It is too absurd to even imagine. You can bet he would have called that out and made known his opposition.  But he was a Christian in more than name only. He knew what side of the river he was on unlike some people here. 

That is exactly the problem! It is disgusting when people promote homosexual relations. Homosexual relations are a sin, and should never be promoted or celebrated.

Thank you.

I oppose the celebration and promotion of homosexuality. So I am opposed to gay pride parades. Not the homosexual. I see nothing unchristian in my position. I do see something unchristian with acting like there is nothing wrong with them. There is.
I agree that homosexuality is a sin, however, so is gluttony (a deadly sin to boot). Would you go and shut down every McDonalds in America or Russia because McDonald's celebrates gluttony?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Punch on August 22, 2012, 10:09:52 PM
Green-Umbrella, you're quite right, they don't have parades for those things. What's with the obsession over parades, anyway??? You made me smile.;D

Oh, you are too funny. Your attitude is formed by the homosexual lobbyists throwing money around to politicians. The television sitcom writer and the leftist college proffesor. It is not God, the scripture or the church fathers.

What an age we live in when a so called ¨Christian¨ will not say they oppose a homosexual parade through a city. Yeah well, as you turn your blind eye to the open celebration of this sin young people will be influenced by it. They will go down that road and destroy themselves both spiritualy and physically.

So keep smiling as you serve your master of lies.

Qui tacet consentire     
Letting other people voice their opinions, no matter how wrong, is now unchristian?

Parades are not  voicing an opinion. Parades are promotions and celebrations. The last time I checked Christians were supposed to love your neighbor as yourself or has that been changed for political correctness?

Does it now read love your neighbor up to the point you might offend him and then be quiet? No. To be opposed to the promotion and celebration of sin is very Christian. I see nothing loving or caring in your position. Sure, throw the drunk another bottle. Let him kill himself. We do not want to offend him. That is your attitude.

Who here would imagine such a scene as this...

¨Paul of Tarsus, the homosexuals are having a parade in Corinth.¨

¨Uh, well...we have other problems in Corinth.¨

(chuckles)

 Right. It is too absurd to even imagine. You can bet he would have called that out and made known his opposition.  But he was a Christian in more than name only. He knew what side of the river he was on unlike some people here. 

That is exactly the problem! It is disgusting when people promote homosexual relations. Homosexual relations are a sin, and should never be promoted or celebrated.

Thank you.

I oppose the celebration and promotion of homosexuality. So I am opposed to gay pride parades. Not the homosexual. I see nothing unchristian in my position. I do see something unchristian with acting like there is nothing wrong with them. There is.
I agree that homosexuality is a sin, however, so is gluttony (a deadly sin to boot). Would you go and shut down every McDonalds in America or Russia because McDonald's celebrates gluttony?

Never found the verse that said God considers gluttony an abomination.  Also, I do not see fat people on parade trying to get people to embrace their lifestyle.  Most fat people (and I am one of them) do not consider their state "normal".  Your comparison is ignorant.  Most people who resort to this are disingenuous, knowing well they have lost the argument yet still trying to defend the evil.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: JoeS2 on August 23, 2012, 12:11:13 AM
 
New International Version (©1984)
"'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
New Living Translation (©2007)
"If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense.

English Standard Version (©2001)
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
When a man has sexual intercourse with another man as with a woman, both men are doing something disgusting and must be put to death. They deserve to die.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
If a man also lies with a man, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

American King James Version
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be on them.

American Standard Version
And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Douay-Rheims Bible
If any one lie with a man se with a woman, both have committed an abomination, let them be put to death: their blood be upon them.

Darby Bible Translation
And if a man lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall certainly be put to death; their blood is upon them.

English Revised Version
And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Webster's Bible Translation
If a man also shall lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

World English Bible
"'If a man lies with a male, as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Young's Literal Translation
And a man who lieth with a male as one lieth with a woman; abomination both of them have done; they are certainly put to death; their blood is on them.
 
 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Νεκτάριος on August 23, 2012, 12:26:45 AM
Usury is one of the worst sins mentioned in the Old Testament.  Most Ukrainian banks will give you 20% interest on Ukrainian Hryvnias, 15% on Russian Rubles and a mere 10% on Dollars.  I've never once seen the Orthodox Church denounce this situation. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: sheenj on August 23, 2012, 12:58:25 AM
Green-Umbrella, you're quite right, they don't have parades for those things. What's with the obsession over parades, anyway??? You made me smile.;D

Oh, you are too funny. Your attitude is formed by the homosexual lobbyists throwing money around to politicians. The television sitcom writer and the leftist college proffesor. It is not God, the scripture or the church fathers.

What an age we live in when a so called ¨Christian¨ will not say they oppose a homosexual parade through a city. Yeah well, as you turn your blind eye to the open celebration of this sin young people will be influenced by it. They will go down that road and destroy themselves both spiritualy and physically.

So keep smiling as you serve your master of lies.

Qui tacet consentire     
Letting other people voice their opinions, no matter how wrong, is now unchristian?

Parades are not  voicing an opinion. Parades are promotions and celebrations. The last time I checked Christians were supposed to love your neighbor as yourself or has that been changed for political correctness?

Does it now read love your neighbor up to the point you might offend him and then be quiet? No. To be opposed to the promotion and celebration of sin is very Christian. I see nothing loving or caring in your position. Sure, throw the drunk another bottle. Let him kill himself. We do not want to offend him. That is your attitude.

Who here would imagine such a scene as this...

¨Paul of Tarsus, the homosexuals are having a parade in Corinth.¨

¨Uh, well...we have other problems in Corinth.¨

(chuckles)

 Right. It is too absurd to even imagine. You can bet he would have called that out and made known his opposition.  But he was a Christian in more than name only. He knew what side of the river he was on unlike some people here. 

That is exactly the problem! It is disgusting when people promote homosexual relations. Homosexual relations are a sin, and should never be promoted or celebrated.

Thank you.

I oppose the celebration and promotion of homosexuality. So I am opposed to gay pride parades. Not the homosexual. I see nothing unchristian in my position. I do see something unchristian with acting like there is nothing wrong with them. There is.
I agree that homosexuality is a sin, however, so is gluttony (a deadly sin to boot). Would you go and shut down every McDonalds in America or Russia because McDonald's celebrates gluttony?

Never found the verse that said God considers gluttony an abomination.  Also, I do not see fat people on parade trying to get people to embrace their lifestyle.  Most fat people (and I am one of them) do not consider their state "normal".  Your comparison is ignorant.  Most people who resort to this are disingenuous, knowing well they have lost the argument yet still trying to defend the evil.
Maybe I'm just secure enough in my faith to let others voice their disbelief publicly. If you think that makes me less Orthodox than you then so be it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: 88Devin12 on August 23, 2012, 01:21:22 AM
Green-Umbrella, you're quite right, they don't have parades for those things. What's with the obsession over parades, anyway??? You made me smile.;D

Oh, you are too funny. Your attitude is formed by the homosexual lobbyists throwing money around to politicians. The television sitcom writer and the leftist college proffesor. It is not God, the scripture or the church fathers.

What an age we live in when a so called ¨Christian¨ will not say they oppose a homosexual parade through a city. Yeah well, as you turn your blind eye to the open celebration of this sin young people will be influenced by it. They will go down that road and destroy themselves both spiritualy and physically.

So keep smiling as you serve your master of lies.

Qui tacet consentire     
Letting other people voice their opinions, no matter how wrong, is now unchristian?

Parades are not  voicing an opinion. Parades are promotions and celebrations. The last time I checked Christians were supposed to love your neighbor as yourself or has that been changed for political correctness?

Does it now read love your neighbor up to the point you might offend him and then be quiet? No. To be opposed to the promotion and celebration of sin is very Christian. I see nothing loving or caring in your position. Sure, throw the drunk another bottle. Let him kill himself. We do not want to offend him. That is your attitude.

Who here would imagine such a scene as this...

¨Paul of Tarsus, the homosexuals are having a parade in Corinth.¨

¨Uh, well...we have other problems in Corinth.¨

(chuckles)

 Right. It is too absurd to even imagine. You can bet he would have called that out and made known his opposition.  But he was a Christian in more than name only. He knew what side of the river he was on unlike some people here. 

That is exactly the problem! It is disgusting when people promote homosexual relations. Homosexual relations are a sin, and should never be promoted or celebrated.

Thank you.

I oppose the celebration and promotion of homosexuality. So I am opposed to gay pride parades. Not the homosexual. I see nothing unchristian in my position. I do see something unchristian with acting like there is nothing wrong with them. There is.
I agree that homosexuality is a sin, however, so is gluttony (a deadly sin to boot). Would you go and shut down every McDonalds in America or Russia because McDonald's celebrates gluttony?

Never found the verse that said God considers gluttony an abomination.  Also, I do not see fat people on parade trying to get people to embrace their lifestyle.  Most fat people (and I am one of them) do not consider their state "normal".  Your comparison is ignorant.  Most people who resort to this are disingenuous, knowing well they have lost the argument yet still trying to defend the evil.
Maybe I'm just secure enough in my faith to let others voice their disbelief publicly. If you think that makes me less Orthodox than you then so be it.

Would you support a nudist pride parade? A prostitute pride parade? A swinger pride parade? (not the dance kind) A polygamist pride parade?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: SolEX01 on August 23, 2012, 01:41:50 AM
Green-Umbrella, you're quite right, they don't have parades for those things. What's with the obsession over parades, anyway??? You made me smile.;D

Oh, you are too funny. Your attitude is formed by the homosexual lobbyists throwing money around to politicians. The television sitcom writer and the leftist college proffesor. It is not God, the scripture or the church fathers.

What an age we live in when a so called ¨Christian¨ will not say they oppose a homosexual parade through a city. Yeah well, as you turn your blind eye to the open celebration of this sin young people will be influenced by it. They will go down that road and destroy themselves both spiritualy and physically.

So keep smiling as you serve your master of lies.

Qui tacet consentire     
Letting other people voice their opinions, no matter how wrong, is now unchristian?

Parades are not  voicing an opinion. Parades are promotions and celebrations. The last time I checked Christians were supposed to love your neighbor as yourself or has that been changed for political correctness?

Does it now read love your neighbor up to the point you might offend him and then be quiet? No. To be opposed to the promotion and celebration of sin is very Christian. I see nothing loving or caring in your position. Sure, throw the drunk another bottle. Let him kill himself. We do not want to offend him. That is your attitude.

Who here would imagine such a scene as this...

¨Paul of Tarsus, the homosexuals are having a parade in Corinth.¨

¨Uh, well...we have other problems in Corinth.¨

(chuckles)

 Right. It is too absurd to even imagine. You can bet he would have called that out and made known his opposition.  But he was a Christian in more than name only. He knew what side of the river he was on unlike some people here. 

That is exactly the problem! It is disgusting when people promote homosexual relations. Homosexual relations are a sin, and should never be promoted or celebrated.

Thank you.

I oppose the celebration and promotion of homosexuality. So I am opposed to gay pride parades. Not the homosexual. I see nothing unchristian in my position. I do see something unchristian with acting like there is nothing wrong with them. There is.
I agree that homosexuality is a sin, however, so is gluttony (a deadly sin to boot). Would you go and shut down every McDonalds in America or Russia because McDonald's celebrates gluttony?

Never found the verse that said God considers gluttony an abomination.  Also, I do not see fat people on parade trying to get people to embrace their lifestyle.  Most fat people (and I am one of them) do not consider their state "normal".  Your comparison is ignorant.  Most people who resort to this are disingenuous, knowing well they have lost the argument yet still trying to defend the evil.
Maybe I'm just secure enough in my faith to let others voice their disbelief publicly. If you think that makes me less Orthodox than you then so be it.

Would you support a nudist pride parade? A prostitute pride parade? A swinger pride parade? (not the dance kind) A polygamist pride parade?

How about a judgmental pride parade?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Νεκτάριος on August 23, 2012, 01:47:07 AM
How about a judgmental pride parade?

That's called a procession in Orthodoxy. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: SolEX01 on August 23, 2012, 01:54:30 AM
How about a judgmental pride parade?

That's called a procession in Orthodoxy. 

Everyone else gets to throw a parade except for Orthodoxy?  Processions in Orthodoxy are supposed to be solemn events; I don't know what goes on in your part of the world regarding to solemnity of Orthodox processions and I'm not arguing against groups of people having a pride parade.  The gays had a 2 day pride parade where I live; no one was bothered; I would ignore it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Gorazd on August 23, 2012, 02:27:07 AM
My mistake. It was Michel Houellebecq who supported Pussy Riot, in addition to Zizek.

So which texts of Pussy Riot seem to point to influence by Zizek and Foucault?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Marcin on August 23, 2012, 02:41:26 AM
I agree that homosexuality is a sin, however, so is gluttony (a deadly sin to boot). Would you go and shut down every McDonalds in America or Russia because McDonald's celebrates gluttony?

In one short sentence so many subterfuges, that one does not know where to start.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Marcin on August 23, 2012, 02:44:39 AM
the average life expectancy for a man is 64 years (up significantly since the 1990s, when it was in the low 50s for the same reason).

64 years rise from low 50s? It is a HUGE change and millions of lives were saved! What was the reason?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: JamesR on August 23, 2012, 02:52:29 AM
64 years rise from low 50s? It is a HUGE change and millions of lives were saved! What was the reason?

Probably economic aid and relief from all us evil westerners.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Marcin on August 23, 2012, 03:01:22 AM
My mistake. It was Michel Houellebecq who supported Pussy Riot, in addition to Zizek.

The issue is where these punks get their ideas, not who supports them.

So which texts of Pussy Riot seem to point to influence by Zizek and Foucault?

Are you questioning the connection? What is your view - where their ideology
comes from?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Marcin on August 23, 2012, 03:09:08 AM
64 years rise from low 50s? It is a HUGE change and millions of lives were saved! What was the reason?

Probably economic aid and relief from all us evil westerners.

Yeah, sure. 1990s collapse was caused by withdrawal of Western help, that kept
Russia running before.  When the help was renewed after 2000s things got much better.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Green_Umbrella on August 23, 2012, 11:05:30 AM
Green-Umbrella, you're quite right, they don't have parades for those things. What's with the obsession over parades, anyway??? You made me smile.;D

Oh, you are too funny. Your attitude is formed by the homosexual lobbyists throwing money around to politicians. The television sitcom writer and the leftist college proffesor. It is not God, the scripture or the church fathers.

What an age we live in when a so called ¨Christian¨ will not say they oppose a homosexual parade through a city. Yeah well, as you turn your blind eye to the open celebration of this sin young people will be influenced by it. They will go down that road and destroy themselves both spiritualy and physically.

So keep smiling as you serve your master of lies.

Qui tacet consentire     
Letting other people voice their opinions, no matter how wrong, is now unchristian?

Parades are not  voicing an opinion. Parades are promotions and celebrations. The last time I checked Christians were supposed to love your neighbor as yourself or has that been changed for political correctness?

Does it now read love your neighbor up to the point you might offend him and then be quiet? No. To be opposed to the promotion and celebration of sin is very Christian. I see nothing loving or caring in your position. Sure, throw the drunk another bottle. Let him kill himself. We do not want to offend him. That is your attitude.

Who here would imagine such a scene as this...

¨Paul of Tarsus, the homosexuals are having a parade in Corinth.¨

¨Uh, well...we have other problems in Corinth.¨

(chuckles)

 Right. It is too absurd to even imagine. You can bet he would have called that out and made known his opposition.  But he was a Christian in more than name only. He knew what side of the river he was on unlike some people here. 

That is exactly the problem! It is disgusting when people promote homosexual relations. Homosexual relations are a sin, and should never be promoted or celebrated.

Thank you.

I oppose the celebration and promotion of homosexuality. So I am opposed to gay pride parades. Not the homosexual. I see nothing unchristian in my position. I do see something unchristian with acting like there is nothing wrong with them. There is.
I agree that homosexuality is a sin, however, so is gluttony (a deadly sin to boot). Would you go and shut down every McDonalds in America or Russia because McDonald's celebrates gluttony?

Never found the verse that said God considers gluttony an abomination.  Also, I do not see fat people on parade trying to get people to embrace their lifestyle.  Most fat people (and I am one of them) do not consider their state "normal".  Your comparison is ignorant.  Most people who resort to this are disingenuous, knowing well they have lost the argument yet still trying to defend the evil.
Maybe I'm just secure enough in my faith to let others voice their disbelief publicly. If you think that makes me less Orthodox than you then so be it.

If you will not say you are opposed to homosexual pride parades through main streets, yeah I say you are less Christian. Absolutely. If you do not like the teachings and values of Christianity then perhaps you should leave it.

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Green_Umbrella on August 23, 2012, 11:07:56 AM
Green-Umbrella, you're quite right, they don't have parades for those things. What's with the obsession over parades, anyway??? You made me smile.;D

Oh, you are too funny. Your attitude is formed by the homosexual lobbyists throwing money around to politicians. The television sitcom writer and the leftist college proffesor. It is not God, the scripture or the church fathers.

What an age we live in when a so called ¨Christian¨ will not say they oppose a homosexual parade through a city. Yeah well, as you turn your blind eye to the open celebration of this sin young people will be influenced by it. They will go down that road and destroy themselves both spiritualy and physically.

So keep smiling as you serve your master of lies.

Qui tacet consentire     
Letting other people voice their opinions, no matter how wrong, is now unchristian?

Parades are not  voicing an opinion. Parades are promotions and celebrations. The last time I checked Christians were supposed to love your neighbor as yourself or has that been changed for political correctness?

Does it now read love your neighbor up to the point you might offend him and then be quiet? No. To be opposed to the promotion and celebration of sin is very Christian. I see nothing loving or caring in your position. Sure, throw the drunk another bottle. Let him kill himself. We do not want to offend him. That is your attitude.

Who here would imagine such a scene as this...

¨Paul of Tarsus, the homosexuals are having a parade in Corinth.¨

¨Uh, well...we have other problems in Corinth.¨

(chuckles)

 Right. It is too absurd to even imagine. You can bet he would have called that out and made known his opposition.  But he was a Christian in more than name only. He knew what side of the river he was on unlike some people here. 

That is exactly the problem! It is disgusting when people promote homosexual relations. Homosexual relations are a sin, and should never be promoted or celebrated.

Thank you.

I oppose the celebration and promotion of homosexuality. So I am opposed to gay pride parades. Not the homosexual. I see nothing unchristian in my position. I do see something unchristian with acting like there is nothing wrong with them. There is.
I agree that homosexuality is a sin, however, so is gluttony (a deadly sin to boot). Would you go and shut down every McDonalds in America or Russia because McDonald's celebrates gluttony?

Never found the verse that said God considers gluttony an abomination.  Also, I do not see fat people on parade trying to get people to embrace their lifestyle.  Most fat people (and I am one of them) do not consider their state "normal".  Your comparison is ignorant.  Most people who resort to this are disingenuous, knowing well they have lost the argument yet still trying to defend the evil.
Maybe I'm just secure enough in my faith to let others voice their disbelief publicly. If you think that makes me less Orthodox than you then so be it.

Would you support a nudist pride parade? A prostitute pride parade? A swinger pride parade? (not the dance kind) A polygamist pride parade?

How about a judgmental pride parade?



Are you judging people for for judging? Sounds like it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Gorazd on August 23, 2012, 11:10:16 AM
So which texts of Pussy Riot seem to point to influence by Zizek and Foucault?

Are you questioning the connection? What is your view - where their ideology
comes from?
I am not even sure if they have a coherent ideology. They are, first of all, young women who rebel against an authoritarian society.
But then again, you are the one who claimed they were influenced by Zizek and Foucault, so I am interested to hear on what you base that claim.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Marcin on August 23, 2012, 12:00:03 PM
But then again, you are the one who claimed they were influenced by Zizek and Foucault, so I am interested to hear on what you base that claim.

1 By media reports like "Slovenian philosopher Slavoj Zizek, whose works are being read by Samutsevich in jail" (google for it)

2 By comparing their statements/actions with Zizek (and Foucault) doctrine

3 By reading about teaching of their direct guru Plutser-Sarno and their mother group Voina:

Voina: Art Attack (http://artfilmnow.com/post/20009487929/voina-art-attack)

You can find more if you look. But if I were to prepare more solid presentation, I might do it in separate thread. If I find time and energy.

Look, if you can tell a Commie by his words and deeds based on not more extensive evidence, then you can tell Neocommies as well. They want to subvert the Church into Sodoma-Gomorrah cult, and they are at best atheists or at worst Satanists in sheepskin.

I am not even sure if they have a coherent ideology. They are, first of all, young women who rebel against an authoritarian society.  (http://I am not even sure if they have a coherent ideology. They are, first of all, young women who rebel against an authoritarian society.)

Of course they are not thinkers, they are only fanatical primitive followers and foot-soldiers.

There were plenty of young women (and men) in 1917 "who rebelled against against an authoritarian society" and who were not thinkers. But they had their little booklets with canned ideas and talking points.

Today revolutionaries want to fix the error of their Bolshevik predecessors, in order for the secular utopia to be established they use cultural subversion, not open violence.

Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: mike on August 23, 2012, 01:01:46 PM
Parades are not  voicing an opinion. Parades are promotions and celebrations.

Promoting homosexuality is as possible as promoting left-handedness or promoting curly hair.

Quote
Who here would imagine such a scene as this...

¨Paul of Tarsus, the homosexuals are having a parade in Corinth.¨

¨Uh, well...we have other problems in Corinth.¨

(chuckles)

 Right. It is too absurd to even imagine.

Actually he did that. He did not talk much about pagan culture in his letters. He almost only wrote to Christains and abut Christians.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: SolEX01 on August 23, 2012, 01:07:03 PM
Green-Umbrella, you're quite right, they don't have parades for those things. What's with the obsession over parades, anyway??? You made me smile.;D

Oh, you are too funny. Your attitude is formed by the homosexual lobbyists throwing money around to politicians. The television sitcom writer and the leftist college proffesor. It is not God, the scripture or the church fathers.

What an age we live in when a so called ¨Christian¨ will not say they oppose a homosexual parade through a city. Yeah well, as you turn your blind eye to the open celebration of this sin young people will be influenced by it. They will go down that road and destroy themselves both spiritualy and physically.

So keep smiling as you serve your master of lies.

Qui tacet consentire     
Letting other people voice their opinions, no matter how wrong, is now unchristian?

Parades are not  voicing an opinion. Parades are promotions and celebrations. The last time I checked Christians were supposed to love your neighbor as yourself or has that been changed for political correctness?

Does it now read love your neighbor up to the point you might offend him and then be quiet? No. To be opposed to the promotion and celebration of sin is very Christian. I see nothing loving or caring in your position. Sure, throw the drunk another bottle. Let him kill himself. We do not want to offend him. That is your attitude.

Who here would imagine such a scene as this...

¨Paul of Tarsus, the homosexuals are having a parade in Corinth.¨

¨Uh, well...we have other problems in Corinth.¨

(chuckles)

 Right. It is too absurd to even imagine. You can bet he would have called that out and made known his opposition.  But he was a Christian in more than name only. He knew what side of the river he was on unlike some people here. 

That is exactly the problem! It is disgusting when people promote homosexual relations. Homosexual relations are a sin, and should never be promoted or celebrated.

Thank you.

I oppose the celebration and promotion of homosexuality. So I am opposed to gay pride parades. Not the homosexual. I see nothing unchristian in my position. I do see something unchristian with acting like there is nothing wrong with them. There is.
I agree that homosexuality is a sin, however, so is gluttony (a deadly sin to boot). Would you go and shut down every McDonalds in America or Russia because McDonald's celebrates gluttony?

Never found the verse that said God considers gluttony an abomination.  Also, I do not see fat people on parade trying to get people to embrace their lifestyle.  Most fat people (and I am one of them) do not consider their state "normal".  Your comparison is ignorant.  Most people who resort to this are disingenuous, knowing well they have lost the argument yet still trying to defend the evil.
Maybe I'm just secure enough in my faith to let others voice their disbelief publicly. If you think that makes me less Orthodox than you then so be it.

Would you support a nudist pride parade? A prostitute pride parade? A swinger pride parade? (not the dance kind) A polygamist pride parade?

How about a judgmental pride parade?



Are you judging people for for judging? Sounds like it.

No.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: HabteSelassie on August 23, 2012, 03:06:53 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


If you will not say you are opposed to homosexual pride parades through main streets, yeah I say you are less Christian. Absolutely. If you do not like the teachings and values of Christianity then perhaps you should leave it.

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

Quote
Let no one take notice or even think to mention the sins of their neighbor.  Let each examine themselves.  God is looking
The Ethiopian Anaphora of Our Lord

Simply put, Orthodox as about worrying about your own sins, and praying for the sins of others.  If folks are sinning, they need our love, support, and sincere hand of friendship, not our scathing condemnations.  In other words, all Orthodox should be concerned with in regards to Homosexuality is THEIR OWN SEXUAL SINS, not not to be so concerned with the sins of their neighbors aside from heartfelt prayer for mercy.

"Let him who shows mercy, do so with cheerfulness."  Apostle Paul Romans 12:8

By the way, my "Lame" meme posting was not in regards to the tangent comments about homosexuality, but rather the exaggerated sentence given to these protesters. Luckily, my prediction is this lengthy sentence was political hyperbole in action and was simple pandering and posturing for the cameras with a "tough on the opposition" kind of game face, but more than likely with all the international pressure these women will be shortly released on a commuted terms. Did they break the law? Yes, repeatedly.  Did they disrespect our holy Mother the Church? Yes, indubitably.  Do they deserve harsh treatment and years in jail? Hardly.   Sure, in a different time these women may have been stoned on the spot, but that is hardly the sentiments of our Savior in the Gospel of John chapter 8 ;)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Green_Umbrella on August 23, 2012, 03:19:38 PM
Parades are not  voicing an opinion. Parades are promotions and celebrations.

Promoting homosexuality is as possible as promoting left-handedness or promoting curly hair.

Quote
Who here would imagine such a scene as this...

¨Paul of Tarsus, the homosexuals are having a parade in Corinth.¨

¨Uh, well...we have other problems in Corinth.¨

(chuckles)

 Right. It is too absurd to even imagine.

Actually he did that. He did not talk much about pagan culture in his letters. He almost only wrote to Christains and abut Christians.

I agree. Homosexuality can be promoted exactly the same as left-handedness and curly hair. I see propaganda for people to have hair perms all the time. And quess what? Many people do it. Suprise suprise no? And as far as your left-handedness rubbish. There was a time when people who were left-handed were ¨corrected¨ in schools to be right handed. And guess what? They became right handed.

So you can take your Pseudo-science somewhere else. And as far as St. Paul and homosexuality, he opposed it. He strongly opposed it. Who he wrote his letters to is a red herring. It does not matter. The only thing important is his position on the issue. He made that very clear to all who do not wish to be self deluded. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: mike on August 23, 2012, 03:21:19 PM
So you can take your Pseudo-science somewhere else. And as far as St. Paul and homosexuality, he opposed it. He strongly opposed it. Who he wrote his letters to is a red herring. It does not matter. The only thing important is his position on the issue. He made that very clear to all who do not wish to be self deluded. 

Did he write it for Christians or did he preached on Roman orgies?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Marcin on August 23, 2012, 03:46:34 PM
Did he write it for Christians or did he preached on Roman orgies?

He was writing his epistles to the Christians, but he was preaching to the gentiles and converting them.

Do you think that if Christians roll over and close themselves in the ghetto "the world" will stop to hate them and leave them alone?

If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed;
but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: 88Devin12 on August 23, 2012, 03:49:22 PM
Parades are not  voicing an opinion. Parades are promotions and celebrations.

Promoting homosexuality is as possible as promoting left-handedness or promoting curly hair.

Quote
Who here would imagine such a scene as this...

¨Paul of Tarsus, the homosexuals are having a parade in Corinth.¨

¨Uh, well...we have other problems in Corinth.¨

(chuckles)

 Right. It is too absurd to even imagine.

Actually he did that. He did not talk much about pagan culture in his letters. He almost only wrote to Christains and abut Christians.

Hmm, tell that to the ones who want everyone to believe that homosexual relationships are okay.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Green_Umbrella on August 23, 2012, 03:58:13 PM
So you can take your Pseudo-science somewhere else. And as far as St. Paul and homosexuality, he opposed it. He strongly opposed it. Who he wrote his letters to is a red herring. It does not matter. The only thing important is his position on the issue. He made that very clear to all who do not wish to be self deluded. 

Did he write it for Christians or did he preached on Roman orgies?

St. Paul wrote his letters for everyone everywhere. He wrote his letters for all peoples of all nations. The entire world. His letters have been distributed to every corner of this globe. Far and wide. Translated in hundreds if not thousands of languages.

Yeah, he wrote his letters for Romans who practiced orgies. That and everyone else. This is the light. This is the way. This is the gospel. Are you ashamed of what St. Paul wrote? Why are you trying to distort the teaching?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: HabteSelassie on August 23, 2012, 05:44:31 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



Do you think that if Christians roll over and close themselves in the ghetto "the world" will stop to hate them and leave them alone?


Not at all, quite the opposite, the same Devil which whispers temptations to us to judge our neighbors sins is the same devil which tempts folks into sins of homosexuality or sins of disregarding Our Savior and antagonizing Christianity.  We will always be martyrs, we will always be suffering.  However, this does not somehow give us an excuse towards self-righteousness.  We stand as a light to the world by LOVING the world, not condemning it smugly, spitefully.  There are a lot of caustic, negative, judgmental, and hostile comments coming from Christians not being content enough to condemn the sin, but to woefully disrespect and antagonize the sinner themselves.  Again, we in Orthodox only have the right to be concerned with OUR OWN sins.  So if homosexuality is a sin in the Church, which it is, our business is to be concerned that we ourselves individually do not practice homosexuality.  This does not somehow give us wholesale license to judge other sinners regardless if they are repentant or not.  We need to give LOVE to sinners, not caustic finger pointing.  Mean-spirited judgment will not convert homosexuals to our communities, it will only further push them away.  The Devil thrives on human conflict.

We need to love sinners, and bring them into the spiritual hospital of the Church.  It isn't necessarily about condoning homosexuality.  Lets be honest, homosexuals know and are well aware that the Orthodox and Catholic Church does not support their sexual orientation, so we don't hardly need to continue to beat that dead horse.  Rather, we should be loving towards sin, emphasizing repentance but also from the perspective of brotherly love.  If folks in the world are entangled in mortal sin, this should hurt our hearts towards compassion, not anger us towards hostile judgement of our neighbors.

Again..

Quote
Let no one take notice or even think to mention the sins of their neighbor.  Let each examine themselves.  God is looking
Ethiopian Anaphora of Our Lord Jesus Christ

However, this is all way off topic from the OP, so to bring it back, we all need to extend this Christian compassion not just to unrepentant homosexuals and other sinners, but also these misguided and confused women who have been punished excessively.

Quote
Let brotherly love continue. 2 Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels. 3 Remember the prisoners as if chained with them—those who are mistreated—since you yourselves are in the body also.
Hebrews 13

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: What do these women believe in?
Post by: orthonorm on August 23, 2012, 07:07:38 PM
Pussy Riot ... consider themselves Orthodox Christians, they just don't recognise the MP's leadership as the only authority to interpret Orthodox tradition.

If so, what is their interpretation of Orthodox tradition?

They are not isolated individuals who develop their own ideas. They are part of a large movement, and years long members of a radical community.

It is not very productive to focus on their personalities at the expense of understanding their worldview. And they with their friends do not hide whose thought inspired them.

One example is Slavoj Zizek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavoj_%C5%BDi%C5%BEek)  (Zhizhek), another is Michel Foucault (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Foucault). Let me quote from Wikipedia:

Quote
Žižek is an atheist. He has said he does not consider religion an enemy but rather one of the fields of struggle. He has also referred to himself as a "Christian materialist". Žižek believes the universalist aspect of Christianity should be secularized into militant egalitarianism, against the "pagan notion of destiny". This universalism he derives from what he perceives as the alleged Christian death of God: God died on the cross and lives on as the "Holy Spirit", that is, in human community. ... He has written many pieces on the reinterpretation of the religious and the theological such as The Puppet and the Dwarf, On Belief and The Fragile Absolute.



Foucault and Zizek are great reads, so good for them if they are informed by their thought (although to reconcile the two would be nearly impossible).

Most people just know the names or read about them, to such a group you surely belong.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: 88Devin12 on August 23, 2012, 11:42:21 PM
Lest anyone think this is a women's rights issue. The judge was a woman...
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=9775
"Russian judge Marina Syrova... Judge Syrova called their behavior "blasphemous" and described it as a "gross violation of public order showing obvious disrespect for society." She also said, "The girls' actions were sacrilegious, blasphemous and broke the church's rules.""
Title: Re: What do these women believe in?
Post by: Marcin on August 24, 2012, 01:38:35 AM
Foucault and Zizek are great reads, so good for them if they are informed by their thought (although to reconcile the two would be nearly impossible).

Voltaire and Nietzsche are much "greater reads", yet they were not always good for those who were informed by them or for those around.

Quote
Most people just know the names or read about them, to such a group you surely belong.

You got me! I only read about Foucault and Zizek (plus quoted fragments and interviews). If I am going to read them it will not be for the sake of great reads, but for the same reason why I read Ayn Rand (to know what makes some tick).

Do you agree with the views of Zizek or Foucault?


Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Marcin on August 24, 2012, 01:42:32 AM
Lest anyone think this is a women's rights issue. The judge was a woman...

Also it was the women who were first to try to stop them but an older woman is not a match for a young assertive street artist.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: montalban on August 24, 2012, 07:01:31 AM
The Guardian disagrees:
The west's hypocrisy over Pussy Riot is breathtaking
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/21/west-hypocrisy-pussy-riot?newsfeed=true

Oy. Sad day when I have to respond to something from the Guardian. I fail to see your point or, frankly, that of the author. The West has many, many problems. Including increasingly incarceration for thought-crimes. I think it is a vile and disturbing trend. There are many who also feel this way, and speak out against it. How is this hypocrisy? Because we have problems we shouldn't have opinions on what goes on elsewhere? Have you been to Russia? Have you seen the blatant materialism and hedonism among the younger set? Oh right--that's all the West's fault. I guess the crass consumerism increasingly exhibited in China is also the West's fault. This is a human condition, a failing, not a geographic location.

The point is that the west is eager to look at the splinter in the eye of its brother. I thought it was quite clear, myself
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Marcin on August 24, 2012, 12:25:36 PM
Now they tried a new stunt in Cologne Cathedral (German Catholic). Little milder but German law provides 3 years of prison for disrupting freedom of religious service.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: mike on August 24, 2012, 02:40:05 PM
She also said, "The girls' actions were sacrilegious, blasphemous and broke the church's rules.""

Since when these are crimes?

Now they tried a new stunt in Cologne Cathedral (German Catholic). Little milder but German law provides 3 years of prison for disrupting freedom of religious service.

AFAIK there were no services then.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Marcin on August 24, 2012, 02:54:52 PM
Since when these are crimes?

The court decides whether crime was committed.

Quote
AFAIK there were no services then. [in Cologne Cathedral]

Again, the court will decide whether crime was committed.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: 88Devin12 on August 24, 2012, 04:19:57 PM
She also said, "The girls' actions were sacrilegious, blasphemous and broke the church's rules.""

Since when these are crimes?

Now they tried a new stunt in Cologne Cathedral (German Catholic). Little milder but German law provides 3 years of prison for disrupting freedom of religious service.

AFAIK there were no services then.

It is against the law in Russia.

http://mercouris.wordpress.com/2012/08/07/pussy-riot-2/

Quote
The women are charged for the offence of hooliganism under Article 213 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation.  This reads as follows:

“Hooliganism

 1. Hooliganism, that is a gross violation of the public order manifested in patent contempt of society and attended by the use of weapons or articles used as weapons shall be punishable by compulsory works for a term of 180 to 240 hours, or by corrective labour for a term of one to two years, or by deprivation of liberty for a term of up to five years.

2. The same deed committed by a group of persons in a preliminary conspiracy, or by an organised group, or connected with resistance to a representative of authority to any other person who fulfils the duty of protecting the public order or who suppresses the violation of the public order shall be punishable by deprivation of liberty for a term of up to seven years”.

(Translation Legislationline) (Italics added)

Quote
the offence in this case is aggravated under Article 3 paragraph 6 of the Law on Freedom of Conscience, Religion and Religious Association of the Russian Federation, which prohibits actions that are insulting to the religious feelings of believers especially when these take place “immediately adjacent to objects of religious veneration”.  The relevant sections read as follows:

“Actions hindering the realisation of the right to freedom of conscience and freedom of creed, including actions entailing coercion of an individual, calculated insults of the feelings of citizens in connection with their attitudes toward religion, the destruction of property, and threats of such actions, are forbidden and are to be prosecuted by law.  The conducting of public activities and distribution of texts and images insulting the religious feelings of citizens immediately adjacent to objects of religious veneration is forbidden.”

Quote
Article 3 paragraph 6 of the Law on Freedom of Conscience, Religion and Religious Association of the Russian Federation is provided under Article 26

“Violation of the law of the Russian Federation on freedom of conscience and on  religious associations involves criminal, administrative and other liability in accordance with the laws of the Russian Federation”.

(All translations by Kenston Institute) (Italics added)

(Those quotations are from the above blog/article.



Just to relate it to you, Poland also has a similar law:

Quote
"Whoever offends religious feelings of other people by publicly insulting an object of religious cult or a place for public holding of religious ceremonies, is subject to a fine, restriction of liberty or loss of liberty for up to 2 years". - Article 196
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Marcin on August 24, 2012, 04:52:32 PM

Just to relate it to you, Poland also has a similar law:

Quote
"Whoever offends religious feelings of other people by publicly insulting an object of religious cult or a place for public holding of religious ceremonies, is subject to a fine, restriction of liberty or loss of liberty for up to 2 years". - Article 196

Also another Article 195 provides 2 years of prison for  ill-disposed disruption of a public religious activity of a church or of other confessional community. (It would include for a example a disruption of a church procession on public road)

In March 2012 the anticlerical and secularist party of a rich scandalizing businessman Palikot (Ruch Palikota) tried to remove or modify Article 196.  This proposal was rejected by all other parties by the overwhelming majority (386 against 66). (http://www.polskieradio.pl/51/637/Artykul/577001,Sejm-nie-wykresli-z-Kodeksu-karnego-art-196-mowiacego-o-karaniu-za-obraze-uczuc-religijnych)
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: 88Devin12 on August 24, 2012, 11:15:37 PM
Abbot Tryphon has released another episode of his podcast and its further reflections on the controversy. He offers some very wise words and offers a wonderful quote by St. Nikolai Velimirovic.

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/morningoffering/pussy_riot_revisited
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Green_Umbrella on August 24, 2012, 11:48:49 PM
She also said, "The girls' actions were sacrilegious, blasphemous and broke the church's rules.""

Since when these are crimes?


When degenerates go into a church and physically disrupt and make offensive religious displays to a religious body they deny those people the freedom to practice their religion. Denying people the freedom to practice their religion is a crime. A serious crime.

The Catholic Church is pressing legal charges to the clowns in Cologne and good for them too. Religious freedom must be defended and maintained. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: 88Devin12 on August 25, 2012, 12:46:43 AM
She also said, "The girls' actions were sacrilegious, blasphemous and broke the church's rules.""

Since when these are crimes?


When degenerates go into a church and physically disrupt and make offensive religious displays to a religious body they deny those people the freedom to practice their religion. Denying people the freedom to practice their religion is a crime. A serious crime.

The Catholic Church is pressing legal charges to the clowns in Cologne and good for them too. Religious freedom must be defended and maintained. 

RussiaToday has been reporting that the group in Koln may face up to 3 years under German law.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Gorazd on August 25, 2012, 04:37:30 AM
RussiaToday has been reporting that the group in Koln may face up to 3 years under German law.
That's not correct. 3 years can be only for disrupting an actual religious service going on. If the group in Cologne (that's the English name of Köln, btw) gets anything at all, it would probably be a fine or some hours of social work.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Marcin on August 25, 2012, 05:23:34 AM
RussiaToday has been reporting that the group in Koln may face up to 3 years under German law.
That's not correct. 3 years can be only for disrupting an actual religious service going on. If the group in Cologne (that's the English name of Köln, btw) gets anything at all, it would probably be a fine or some hours of social work.

I hope that the court will pass the correct judgment and they will be punished. The harassment of Christians should not be encouraged, there is enough of that going in the large part of the world.

BTW, when church is open and people pray there it is a religious service. Other times the church should be closed so punks and haters do not prowl there. And people were praying as one can see/hear in this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5jqLym56Yc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5jqLym56Yc)

Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: 88Devin12 on August 25, 2012, 10:00:04 AM
RussiaToday has been reporting that the group in Koln may face up to 3 years under German law.
That's not correct. 3 years can be only for disrupting an actual religious service going on. If the group in Cologne (that's the English name of Köln, btw) gets anything at all, it would probably be a fine or some hours of social work.

Actually it is correct because Mass was going on there.

(and I prefer to call it Koln)
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Gorazd on August 25, 2012, 01:45:24 PM
I hope that the court will pass the correct judgment and they will be punished.
As for myself, I do not hope for any punishments, but always for repentance.

BTW, when church is open and people pray there it is a religious service.
If the Church is just open for individual prayer, it is not considered a service under German law. If there is an actual service (mass, evening prayers etc.) and one would disturb that going on, there could be a severe sentence.

If the Church is just open for everyone to pray, then basically a punk prayer is possible, too. Except if the owner of the building (btw, that is not the RCC but the dome construction association) tells you your behaviour is inapropriate. If you insist on continuing after asked to leave, then there can be a crime under German law.

Actually it is correct because Mass was going on there.
German media reports I read suggested otherwise, but we will see...

(and I prefer to call it Koln)
It is Köln with an umlaut. In case you do not have an umlaut, ö is replaced by oe. So you should write Koeln, but certainly not Koln, because that is just plain wrong.
And anyway, the forum rules impose the use of the English language here.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Marcin on August 25, 2012, 01:51:07 PM
As for myself, I do not hope for any punishments, but always for repentance.

True repentance might include acceptance of punishment. At least the good thief thought so. These women are extremely smug and unrepentant.


Quote
German media reports I read suggested otherwise, but we will see...

You did not see it on the video clip I provided?!
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: 88Devin12 on August 25, 2012, 02:17:14 PM
I hope that the court will pass the correct judgment and they will be punished.
As for myself, I do not hope for any punishments, but always for repentance.

BTW, when church is open and people pray there it is a religious service.
If the Church is just open for individual prayer, it is not considered a service under German law. If there is an actual service (mass, evening prayers etc.) and one would disturb that going on, there could be a severe sentence.

If the Church is just open for everyone to pray, then basically a punk prayer is possible, too. Except if the owner of the building (btw, that is not the RCC but the dome construction association) tells you your behaviour is inapropriate. If you insist on continuing after asked to leave, then there can be a crime under German law.

Actually it is correct because Mass was going on there.
German media reports I read suggested otherwise, but we will see...

(and I prefer to call it Koln)
It is Köln with an umlaut. In case you do not have an umlaut, ö is replaced by oe. So you should write Koeln, but certainly not Koln, because that is just plain wrong.
And anyway, the forum rules impose the use of the English language here.

Its the name of a place, I'm not speaking a foreign language. Don't be legalistic and only read the letter of the law, instead focus on the intent. It is to prevent people from writing in a foreign language outside of the language section and without providing a translation.

Its no different than if I were to refer to Venice as Venezia or Florence as Firenze. Heck, if we went that far with it, we would be saying River of January rather than Rio de Janeiro.

Also:

Pussy Riot 2.0: German Catholic Church presses charge copycats
http://rt.com/news/pussy-riot-cologne-cathedral-463/

Quote
Three years in prison have become a closer prospect for some German followers of Russian punk band Pussy Riot. The Catholic Church has pressed charges against Cologne Cathedral intruders, who now face longer prison terms than their heroes.
The three protesters have been charged with disturbing a religious service which, according to German law, could mean up to three years in jail.
"The right to demonstration cannot be set above the right to religious freedom and the religious feelings of the congregation,” Cologne Cathedral’s dean told the Frankfurter Rundschau newspaper.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Green_Umbrella on August 25, 2012, 02:24:10 PM
As for myself, I do not hope for any punishments, but always for repentance.

True repentance might include acceptance of punishment. At least the good thief thought so. These women are extremely smug and unrepentant.


Quote
German media reports I read suggested otherwise, but we will see...

You did not see it on the video clip I provided?!

It would not bother him/her if they had ran up to a Priest, grabbed the wine and drank it. Then threw the sacramental bread on the floor and tore down the cross and urinated on it. This type of person will grab anything to excuse the behavior from these ¨things¨

They are not interested in repentance or the Church except to destroy it. The Church is something to be despised and mocked to them. Wake up and smell the evil. They know exactly what they were doing even if some people do not. Let them do a year in prison. They are young and fit. It just might do them some good.      
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: stanley123 on August 26, 2012, 02:13:55 PM
The Church is something to be despised and mocked to them. Wake up and smell the evil. They know exactly what they were doing even if some people do not. Let them do a year in prison. They are young and fit. It just might do them some good.      
I agree.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: montalban on August 28, 2012, 12:29:08 AM
Since when these are crimes?

The court decides whether crime was committed.

Quote
AFAIK there were no services then. [in Cologne Cathedral]

Again, the court will decide whether crime was committed.

Exactly! I don't know why some are excusing these Russians, but having no problems with Germany's laws
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: montalban on August 28, 2012, 12:31:14 AM

Just to relate it to you, Poland also has a similar law:

Quote
"Whoever offends religious feelings of other people by publicly insulting an object of religious cult or a place for public holding of religious ceremonies, is subject to a fine, restriction of liberty or loss of liberty for up to 2 years". - Article 196
[/quote]That's what I don't get about this.

In effect it's going "If the Russians authorities do it, we'll criticise them BUT if other countries do it we'll ignore it, or excuse it"
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Punch on August 28, 2012, 08:56:39 AM
Since when these are crimes?

The court decides whether crime was committed.

Quote
AFAIK there were no services then. [in Cologne Cathedral]

Again, the court will decide whether crime was committed.

Exactly! I don't know why some are excusing these Russians, but having no problems with Germany's laws

A country that is trying to go back to its Christian roots and one that is led by a leader who actually espouses Christian values is quite offensive to the children of the Antichrist.  Consequently, anything done by such a country is offensive to them, yet the same thing (or worse) done by a virtually pagan country is quite alright.  Let's face it, if performing a vulgar "punk play" in front of the altar and cutting down crosses does not offend one to the point of righteous anger, they are so morally vacant that they have already fallen for what the scriptures say will happen in the last days: what is wrong will become right, and what is right will become wrong.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: ilyazhito on August 30, 2012, 01:42:40 PM
I am not a supporter of Putin, but I do admit that Pussy Riot has done the wrong thing. They need to be denied communion and/or given community service and penance to perform, because such a punishment would be more constructive. Doing penance and social work would help them realise their errors and truly repent.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: 88Devin12 on August 30, 2012, 02:52:51 PM
I am not a supporter of Putin, but I do admit that Pussy Riot has done the wrong thing. They need to be denied communion and/or given community service and penance to perform, because such a punishment would be more constructive. Doing penance and social work would help them realise their errors and truly repent.

From what they've done and everything, I don't think they are Orthodox Christians.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Νεκτάριος on August 30, 2012, 02:57:34 PM
I am not a supporter of Putin, but I do admit that Pussy Riot has done the wrong thing. They need to be denied communion and/or given community service and penance to perform, because such a punishment would be more constructive. Doing penance and social work would help them realise their errors and truly repent.

From what they've done and everything, I don't think they are Orthodox Christians.

I think impersonating a bishop is a pretty serious breach of the canons. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: ilyazhito on August 31, 2012, 06:47:37 PM
Who is impersonating a bishop? I'm just stating what the possible penalties would have been in the "good old days". I think the Russians should get back to just wanting Putin OUT!
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: mike on September 07, 2012, 06:43:27 AM
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/395970_300751779981769_1487487803_n.jpg)

Why this was approved in that Church and Pussy Riot's performance wasn't?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: montalban on September 10, 2012, 01:35:12 AM
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/395970_300751779981769_1487487803_n.jpg)

Why this was approved in that Church and Pussy Riot's performance wasn't?

Sounds like a good idea for a discussion thread
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Kerdy on September 10, 2012, 03:47:28 AM
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/395970_300751779981769_1487487803_n.jpg)

Why this was approved in that Church and Pussy Riot's performance wasn't?
It may have something to do with one being Christian fellowship and the other being vulgar anarchists.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Punch on September 10, 2012, 09:04:45 AM

Why this was approved in that Church and Pussy Riot's performance wasn't?
It may have something to do with one being Christian fellowship and the other being vulgar anarchists.

+1

I would have thought that would be obvious.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: 88Devin12 on September 10, 2012, 10:11:13 AM
While I don't agree with the opulance of the Bishops. I hate it when people think that as Christians, we absolutely must give up every single thing we've got and automatically give it to the poor. They take the story of the rich man and try to apply it to every Christian who has ever lived.

They also, at the same time, ignore the fact that the Bishops preside over an organization, and help it run, and it provides (probably) hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars worth of charity to those hungry people.

It's like the same people who walk into an Orthodox Church and start cursing us for being unChristian and having so many frilly decorations and instead we should use that money for the poor.

We are feeding them spiritually and physically. One is permanent, the other is fleeting. But we can do both for them.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Jetavan on September 10, 2012, 03:40:39 PM
Quote
(Reuters) - The head of the Russian Orthodox Church (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/09/us-russia-patriarch-idUSBRE8880DO20120909) used a Sunday prayer service and a state TV interview to argue that the church he presides over is under attack from foes he said fear its post-Soviet revival and want to destroy its places of worship.

Patriarch Kirill did not name punk music group Pussy Riot but was clearly referring to the collective, three of whose members were sentenced to jail for performing a "punk prayer" at the altar of a Moscow cathedral during which they criticized President Vladimir Putin.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Shiny on September 18, 2012, 03:09:52 PM
Quote
Sergei Baranov keeps his clerical robes hanging neatly in his closet, but he believes he will never again wear them inside a Russian Orthodox Church.

Orthodox Russian deacon stands up for Pussy Riot
http://music.msn.com/music/article.aspx?news=758122&affid=100055
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: ilyazhito on September 19, 2012, 10:35:15 AM
Pussy riot could be a provocation done by V.V. This might just make him Tsar Vladimir II, although he hasn't admitted it yet. Putin could have used the incident as a distraction, because the church was set up exactly the way that a provocateur would have wanted. (I'm not sure that any Joe Schmoe could bring sound recording equipment into a church without arousing suspicion).
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Schultz on September 19, 2012, 10:40:27 AM
Quote
Sergei Baranov keeps his clerical robes hanging neatly in his closet, but he believes he will never again wear them inside a Russian Orthodox Church.

Orthodox Russian deacon stands up for Pussy Riot
http://music.msn.com/music/article.aspx?news=758122&affid=100055

from the article (emphasis mine):
Quote
"It wasn't correct for him to write in support (of the Pussy Riot girls)," said Larisa Krasnova, a retired military sergeant who had been visiting the church with her grandson. "I approve of the fact that they were tried because it's blasphemy and because it's unforgivable."

I sincerely hope this was something that was just lost in translation, but if this woman really believes this, the Russian church has a lot of catechizing to do.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: orthonorm on September 19, 2012, 11:35:35 AM
High view to post ratio.

More than just oc.netters are viewing this space. Probably for different reasons than the thread about Metropolitan Job.

Have a feeling a lot of "guests" are hitting this via certain google search terms.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: mike on November 02, 2012, 04:59:45 PM
Moscow's Christ the Savior Cathedral Is Open for Business! ... for Now

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/10/moscows-christ-the-savior-cathedral-is-open-for-business-for-now/264354/#
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Jetavan on November 29, 2012, 12:51:50 PM
A judge in Russia has ordered websites (http://music.msn.com/music/article.aspx?news=777281&ocid=rr-mus-news) in the country to remove videos featuring female punk band Pussy Riot from their online content.
....
Judge Marina Musimovich said the video "has elements of extremism, in particular there are words and actions which humiliate various social groups based on their religion." Owners who do not comply with the order could have their websites blocked in the country.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Babalon on December 23, 2012, 08:54:19 AM
So who's the Russian-equivilant of Julian Assange? Someone call Alex Jones, these mah's ain't playin...
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Cyrillic on December 23, 2012, 09:13:38 AM
Someone call Alex Jones, these mah's ain't playin...

Isn't he that conspiracy nut?
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Babalon on December 23, 2012, 07:02:28 PM
Someone call Alex Jones, these mah's ain't playin...

Isn't he that conspiracy nut?

Basically.
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: NicholasMyra on December 23, 2012, 07:05:12 PM
Someone call Alex Jones, these mah's ain't playin...

Isn't he that conspiracy nut?

Alex Jones: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uR2UXmTGK4M
Title: Re: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PU
Post by: Ioannis Climacus on December 23, 2012, 09:00:39 PM
Someone call Alex Jones, these mah's ain't playin...

Isn't he that conspiracy nut?

Alex Jones: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uR2UXmTGK4M
Alex Jones the Saiyan :

http://youtu.be/LhqUk28OwHs