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Moderated Forums => Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion => Orthodox-Protestant Discussion => Topic started by: Jetavan on January 21, 2012, 09:35:25 AM

Title: Civil War changed Southern Baptists, historian says
Post by: Jetavan on January 21, 2012, 09:35:25 AM
Quote
Author Bruce Gourley says in Diverging Loyalties: Baptists in Middle Georgia During the Civil War that the Calvinism that caused many Baptists to view the war (http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/7079/53/) as God’s providential hand guiding the Southern cause waned as early victories turned to defeat and all but disappeared from public discourse by the turn of the 20th century.

Gourley, executive director of the Baptist History and Heritage Society, said that silence was not because of disinterest in the tenets of Calvinist theology, but rather integration of ideas of providence and sovereignty with a heightened embrace of free will prompted by the global spread of human progress, democracy and freedom following the war.

Gourley says it wasn’t until the cultural and social revolutions of the 1960s and 1970s, followed by fundamentalist-modernist struggles in the Southern Baptist Convention, that Calvinism made its comeback.
Title: Re: Civil War changed Southern Baptists, historian says
Post by: FrChris on January 21, 2012, 09:40:42 AM
Hmmm...interesting theory! I would like to read his work to see how he came to his conclusion.
Title: Re: Civil War changed Southern Baptists, historian says
Post by: HabteSelassie on January 21, 2012, 03:00:04 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

For a lot of Baptists from the South, the Civil War was like the Fourth Crusade against Constantinople in 1204 for Orthodox, and the Civil Right's Movement was like when Mehmed II came knocking in 1453.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: Civil War changed Southern Baptists, historian says
Post by: PeterTheAleut on January 21, 2012, 08:54:28 PM
For a lot of Baptists from the South, the Civil War was like the Fourth Crusade against Constantinople in 1204 for Orthodox, and the Civil Right's Movement was like when Mehmed II came knocking in 1453.
How so?
Title: Re: Civil War changed Southern Baptists, historian says
Post by: HabteSelassie on January 21, 2012, 09:30:50 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

For a lot of Baptists from the South, the Civil War was like the Fourth Crusade against Constantinople in 1204 for Orthodox, and the Civil Right's Movement was like when Mehmed II came knocking in 1453.
How so?

I'm not trying to pull anymore cards than this, but for many it was the beginning and then consummation of the end of the "world" they believed God created for them. 

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: Civil War changed Southern Baptists, historian says
Post by: PeterTheAleut on January 21, 2012, 09:42:22 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

For a lot of Baptists from the South, the Civil War was like the Fourth Crusade against Constantinople in 1204 for Orthodox, and the Civil Right's Movement was like when Mehmed II came knocking in 1453.
How so?

I'm not trying to pull anymore cards than this, but for many it was the beginning and then consummation of the end of the "world" they believed God created for them.
That makes as little sense as your previous statement on this thread. Just what are you trying to say?
Title: Re: Civil War changed Southern Baptists, historian says
Post by: HabteSelassie on January 21, 2012, 09:59:18 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


That makes as little sense as your previous statement on this thread. Just what are you trying to say?

I grew up with Baptists from the South.  I also am well versed in their history.  Before the Civil War, a lot of Baptists, as the OP article discussed, were rather Calvinist, and so basically accepted the social order of slavery and racism as Divinely Ordained.  When the War came, these felt like it was the Devil trying to destroy God's way of life.  Those scars still run deep, even as expressed by some Orthodox members of this forum which is why I don't want to dig to deep here.  This is partially what drove Jim Crow, because folks were trying to reassert and reaffirm this Divinely Ordained social order, so when the Civil Rights movement came, the Baptists (and many other Southern religious institutions) were the most fierce opponents, and a lot of the Civil War era rhetoric even resurfaced, which again, is discussed by the OP post.

Hence the connection, the way Orthodox feels the Latins first attacked, and then the Turks gave the coup de grace to the Orthodox social order of Byzantium, so to did many Baptists mourn and scorn the end of Slavery and Jim Crow which for them, were Divine Institutions :(

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: Civil War changed Southern Baptists, historian says
Post by: Knee V on January 23, 2012, 12:28:32 PM
I'd always figured that Calvinism largely left the Baptist scene due to the pervasiveness of Dispensationalism and the general absence of Calvinism from that theological system (I do understand that there are some dispensationalists who are soteriologically calvinist).
Title: Re: Civil War changed Southern Baptists, historian says
Post by: alanscott on January 26, 2012, 03:24:50 PM
Quote
Author Bruce Gourley says in Diverging Loyalties: Baptists in Middle Georgia During the Civil War that the Calvinism that caused many Baptists to view the war (http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/7079/53/) as God’s providential hand guiding the Southern cause waned as early victories turned to defeat and all but disappeared from public discourse by the turn of the 20th century.

Gourley, executive director of the Baptist History and Heritage Society, said that silence was not because of disinterest in the tenets of Calvinist theology, but rather integration of ideas of providence and sovereignty with a heightened embrace of free will prompted by the global spread of human progress, democracy and freedom following the war.

Gourley says it wasn’t until the cultural and social revolutions of the 1960s and 1970s, followed by fundamentalist-modernist struggles in the Southern Baptist Convention, that Calvinism made its comeback.

Definitely an interesting theory. I'm not well versed on Baptist, then again, can't say I'm well versed on much! ;) I've known some wonderful folks that are though.
 
My wife and I prayed at a First Baptist Church for a short time many years ago. It was considered a 'Separate' (non-calvinist) Baptist Church with the Calvinist being referred to as 'Regular' Baptist. (In this region anyway) I am under the impression these are American terminologies stemming from the English terms 'Particular' Baptist, for their belief in a limited atonement, and 'General' Baptist, for their belief that atonement was available to all. The theological differences between Calvinist and Armenian Baptist existing well before the colonies, I suppose the civil war could have influenced any decline in Calvin theology, but I am also under the impression much of the decline in Calvinism was due to early Protestant reformation. The 'second great awakening' I think actually started prior to the war.
Title: Re: Civil War changed Southern Baptists, historian says
Post by: alanscott on January 26, 2012, 03:46:06 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


That makes as little sense as your previous statement on this thread. Just what are you trying to say?

I grew up with Baptists from the South.  I also am well versed in their history.  Before the Civil War, a lot of Baptists, as the OP article discussed, were rather Calvinist, and so basically accepted the social order of slavery and racism as Divinely Ordained.  When the War came, these felt like it was the Devil trying to destroy God's way of life.  Those scars still run deep, even as expressed by some Orthodox members of this forum which is why I don't want to dig to deep here.  This is partially what drove Jim Crow, because folks were trying to reassert and reaffirm this Divinely Ordained social order, so when the Civil Rights movement came, the Baptists (and many other Southern religious institutions) were the most fierce opponents, and a lot of the Civil War era rhetoric even resurfaced, which again, is discussed by the OP post.

Hence the connection, the way Orthodox feels the Latins first attacked, and then the Turks gave the coup de grace to the Orthodox social order of Byzantium, so to did many Baptists mourn and scorn the end of Slavery and Jim Crow which for them, were Divine Institutions :(

stay blessed,
habte selassie


Ouch! I know a few good southern folks that might object to that!  ;)

Ya know I always kind of assumed that those that used (use) their faith to justify racism where doing just that. Using religion to justify a wrong. To think they actually believed it in their heart... well, I guess I have to accept that sadly in some cases it is true.

* habte, I am still reading and benefit from your generous reply to my 'repentance' post. God bless! 
Title: Re: Civil War changed Southern Baptists, historian says
Post by: PeterTheAleut on January 27, 2012, 12:50:34 PM
Quote
Author Bruce Gourley says in Diverging Loyalties: Baptists in Middle Georgia During the Civil War that the Calvinism that caused many Baptists to view the war (http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/7079/53/) as God’s providential hand guiding the Southern cause waned as early victories turned to defeat and all but disappeared from public discourse by the turn of the 20th century.

Gourley, executive director of the Baptist History and Heritage Society, said that silence was not because of disinterest in the tenets of Calvinist theology, but rather integration of ideas of providence and sovereignty with a heightened embrace of free will prompted by the global spread of human progress, democracy and freedom following the war.

Gourley says it wasn’t until the cultural and social revolutions of the 1960s and 1970s, followed by fundamentalist-modernist struggles in the Southern Baptist Convention, that Calvinism made its comeback.

Definitely an interesting theory. I'm not well versed on Baptist, then again, can't say I'm well versed on much! ;) I've known some wonderful folks that are though.
 
My wife and I prayed at a First Baptist Church for a short time many years ago. It was considered a 'Separate' (non-calvinist) Baptist Church with the Calvinist being referred to as 'Regular' Baptist. (In this region anyway) I am under the impression these are American terminologies stemming from the English terms 'Particular' Baptist, for their belief in a limited atonement, and 'General' Baptist, for their belief that atonement was available to all. The theological differences between Calvinist and Armenian Baptist existing well before the colonies, I suppose the civil war could have influenced any decline in Calvin theology, but I am also under the impression much of the decline in Calvinism was due to early Protestant reformation. The 'second great awakening' I think actually started prior to the war.
Jacob Arminius was not Armenian (at least not that I know of).
Title: Re: Civil War changed Southern Baptists, historian says
Post by: alanscott on January 27, 2012, 01:09:44 PM
Quote
Author Bruce Gourley says in Diverging Loyalties: Baptists in Middle Georgia During the Civil War that the Calvinism that caused many Baptists to view the war (http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/7079/53/) as God’s providential hand guiding the Southern cause waned as early victories turned to defeat and all but disappeared from public discourse by the turn of the 20th century.

Gourley, executive director of the Baptist History and Heritage Society, said that silence was not because of disinterest in the tenets of Calvinist theology, but rather integration of ideas of providence and sovereignty with a heightened embrace of free will prompted by the global spread of human progress, democracy and freedom following the war.

Gourley says it wasn’t until the cultural and social revolutions of the 1960s and 1970s, followed by fundamentalist-modernist struggles in the Southern Baptist Convention, that Calvinism made its comeback.

Definitely an interesting theory. I'm not well versed on Baptist, then again, can't say I'm well versed on much! ;) I've known some wonderful folks that are though.
 
My wife and I prayed at a First Baptist Church for a short time many years ago. It was considered a 'Separate' (non-calvinist) Baptist Church with the Calvinist being referred to as 'Regular' Baptist. (In this region anyway) I am under the impression these are American terminologies stemming from the English terms 'Particular' Baptist, for their belief in a limited atonement, and 'General' Baptist, for their belief that atonement was available to all. The theological differences between Calvinist and Armenian Baptist existing well before the colonies, I suppose the civil war could have influenced any decline in Calvin theology, but I am also under the impression much of the decline in Calvinism was due to early Protestant reformation. The 'second great awakening' I think actually started prior to the war.
Jacob Arminius was not Armenian (at least not that I know of).

Oops!  ;D  You should see what it looked like before the spell check LOL

Thanks for the correction!