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Moderated Forums => Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion => Orthodox-Catholic Discussion => Topic started by: Irish Melkite on December 12, 2011, 05:13:17 AM

Title: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Melkite on December 12, 2011, 05:13:17 AM
I apologize in advance for revisiting the subject of CAF - but this couldn't pass without comment ...

The EC (remember, that's 'Eastern Catholic' these days - not 'Eastern Christi0anity' as it was in our time) forum Mod has posted some new guidelines there on charitable and civil debate.

In keeping with the rules here, I won't quote her post, but the essence is that posters should think of themselves as "robots". When someone objects to something they've posted, they should run it through a decision-making chart and, having discerned the appropriate factual and non-emotional response, they should post that with "encyclopedia-like neutrality".

The narrative text is followed by debate guidelines, several of which are pretty mundane. But, my definite favorite - in keeping with the narrative that precedes the guidelines - is ... 

"Remember: your goal is to sound like an encyclopedia robot."   :o

Why didn't I think of that in my day as mod over there?  ???

The place never ceases to amaze.

Many years,

Neil
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on December 12, 2011, 06:41:32 AM
Said the Irish Hermit to the Irish Melkite....

'Remember: your goal is to sound like an encyclopedia robot."

I am so choked with mirth that I cannot think of any intelligent response!

Sorry not to sound like an encyclopedia robot!   :laugh:



Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Melkite on December 12, 2011, 06:56:01 AM
Bless, Father,

As I read your post, and finished spewing my coffee over my keyboard, I realized that the very line "Remember, ... " is contrary to the accompanying text and enunciated guidelines, which are replete with admonitions such as to give "No indication of what the other needs to do unless it is genuine praise."

Many years,

Neil
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: the slave on December 12, 2011, 09:06:30 AM
I nearly ended myself when I read the 2 posts made there , whilst eating my breakfast .

All I know is that I'm not learned enough to be able to sound like an encyclopedia robot.

oh well - I'm devastated :(
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cavaradossi on December 12, 2011, 09:23:53 AM
I'm curious how some of the snarkier posters will manage to survive.  Should be fun to watch.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on December 12, 2011, 10:43:14 AM
Head back by to check out my response.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: JoeS on December 12, 2011, 10:51:15 AM
I'm curious how some of the snarkier posters will manage to survive.  Should be fun to watch.

Well, this is another example of websites striving to be politically correct at the expense of resonable intellectual discourse.

I was a regular CAF member and had posted serveral thousand postings.  But, the discussions became too much for some mods and they extinguished our (Orthodox ) membership and gutted our past postings so you could never refer back to our responses.   It was their ball park so we had to bite the bullet and take our licks and go home.  Sadly, the western church will have a more difficult time in understanding our beliefs thats if they are still interested.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: podkarpatska on December 12, 2011, 11:49:41 AM
"Danger, danger Will Robinson!!!!"
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Papist on December 12, 2011, 12:08:01 PM
I apologize in advance for revisiting the subject of CAF - but this couldn't pass without comment ...

The EC (remember, that's 'Eastern Catholic' these days - not 'Eastern Christi0anity' as it was in our time) forum Mod has posted some new guidelines there on charitable and civil debate.

In keeping with the rules here, I won't quote her post, but the essence is that posters should think of themselves as "robots". When someone objects to something they've posted, they should run it through a decision-making chart and, having discerned the appropriate factual and non-emotional response, they should post that with "encyclopedia-like neutrality".

The narrative text is followed by debate guidelines, several of which are pretty mundane. But, my definite favorite - in keeping with the narrative that precedes the guidelines - is ... 

"Remember: your goal is to sound like an encyclopedia robot."   :o

Why didn't I think of that in my day as mod over there?  ???

The place never ceases to amaze.

Many years,

Neil
Probably because the bias in favor of Eastern Orthodoxy was palpable. When the moderator is allowing threads celebrating a Catholic's defection to Eastern Orthodoxy, he certainly cannot give the advice the provided above. He'd have to practice what he preaches first.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cavaradossi on December 12, 2011, 12:25:27 PM
I apologize in advance for revisiting the subject of CAF - but this couldn't pass without comment ...

The EC (remember, that's 'Eastern Catholic' these days - not 'Eastern Christi0anity' as it was in our time) forum Mod has posted some new guidelines there on charitable and civil debate.

In keeping with the rules here, I won't quote her post, but the essence is that posters should think of themselves as "robots". When someone objects to something they've posted, they should run it through a decision-making chart and, having discerned the appropriate factual and non-emotional response, they should post that with "encyclopedia-like neutrality".

The narrative text is followed by debate guidelines, several of which are pretty mundane. But, my definite favorite - in keeping with the narrative that precedes the guidelines - is ... 

"Remember: your goal is to sound like an encyclopedia robot."   :o

Why didn't I think of that in my day as mod over there?  ???

The place never ceases to amaze.

Many years,

Neil
Probably because the bias in favor of Eastern Orthodoxy was palpable. When the moderator is allowing threads celebrating a Catholic's defection to Eastern Orthodoxy, he certainly cannot give the advice the provided above. He'd have to practice what he preaches first.

Don't worry, I'm sure he'll burn in hell for causing you such grievous offense. (Or maybe you can just let go of such silly grievances, if you possess the maturity).
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on December 12, 2011, 12:41:23 PM
Ahhh...CAF...I can't imagine a better place to have abandoned. That goes for the church they're pushing, too.

And I remember in my time there more than a few "I'm leaving Catholicism to become ____" on the Non-Catholic Religions subforum (my favorites were Muslim and Hari Krshna...not the same poster, of course, though that would have made it more interesting), which were allowed to go on for pages and pages and turn into such messes that eventually the moderator of that subforum had to make a sticky announcing that no one could post threads like that anymore. Hahaha. But somehow now posts that stop far short of that level are unacceptable if they do not show enough deference to Catholicism? Sounds like insecure Romanists throwing their weight around, lest their "Eastern lung" start thinking of actually breathing in an Eastern body, as opposed to being properly subservient to their Roman masters. Sad.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: stanley123 on December 12, 2011, 01:12:57 PM
I apologize in advance for revisiting the subject of CAF - but this couldn't pass without comment ...

The EC (remember, that's 'Eastern Catholic' these days - not 'Eastern Christi0anity' as it was in our time) forum Mod has posted some new guidelines there on charitable and civil debate.

In keeping with the rules here, I won't quote her post, but the essence is that posters should think of themselves as "robots". When someone objects to something they've posted, they should run it through a decision-making chart and, having discerned the appropriate factual and non-emotional response, they should post that with "encyclopedia-like neutrality".

The narrative text is followed by debate guidelines, several of which are pretty mundane. But, my definite favorite - in keeping with the narrative that precedes the guidelines - is ... 

"Remember: your goal is to sound like an encyclopedia robot."   :o

Why didn't I think of that in my day as mod over there?  ???

The place never ceases to amaze.

Many years,

Neil
I find the recommendations given there to be reasonable, and this one about the robots is taken out of the context. I thought that the moderator was only saying not to be overly emotional or sarcastic. One piece of advice that I liked was not to use "you" statements such as: you need to ..., why don't you..., etc.
 How many times have I seen people write "you need to do this" or "you need to do that" and this adds nothing to the discussion but only hypes it ?
I don't say that there are not cases when moderators are out of line at CAF. But I don't see this as such a situation.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Papist on December 12, 2011, 01:37:54 PM
I apologize in advance for revisiting the subject of CAF - but this couldn't pass without comment ...

The EC (remember, that's 'Eastern Catholic' these days - not 'Eastern Christi0anity' as it was in our time) forum Mod has posted some new guidelines there on charitable and civil debate.

In keeping with the rules here, I won't quote her post, but the essence is that posters should think of themselves as "robots". When someone objects to something they've posted, they should run it through a decision-making chart and, having discerned the appropriate factual and non-emotional response, they should post that with "encyclopedia-like neutrality".

The narrative text is followed by debate guidelines, several of which are pretty mundane. But, my definite favorite - in keeping with the narrative that precedes the guidelines - is ... 

"Remember: your goal is to sound like an encyclopedia robot."   :o

Why didn't I think of that in my day as mod over there?  ???

The place never ceases to amaze.

Many years,

Neil
Probably because the bias in favor of Eastern Orthodoxy was palpable. When the moderator is allowing threads celebrating a Catholic's defection to Eastern Orthodoxy, he certainly cannot give the advice the provided above. He'd have to practice what he preaches first.

Don't worry, I'm sure he'll burn in hell for causing you such grievous offense. (Or maybe you can just let go of such silly grievances, if you possess the maturity).
I would hope that you would possess the maturity to be able to address a relevant issue. Joe's moderation of that subform was constantly painted by his biases, yet he is suggesting that the posters on CAF should not let their emotions get involved. This is problematic. When you defend this it appears that  you support bias, but I hope that is not the case.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Papist on December 12, 2011, 01:40:23 PM
Ahhh...CAF...I can't imagine a better place to have abandoned. That goes for the church they're pushing, too.

And I remember in my time there more than a few "I'm leaving Catholicism to become ____" on the Non-Catholic Religions subforum (my favorites were Muslim and Hari Krshna...not the same poster, of course, though that would have made it more interesting), which were allowed to go on for pages and pages and turn into such messes that eventually the moderator of that subforum had to make a sticky announcing that no one could post threads like that anymore. Hahaha. But somehow now posts that stop far short of that level are unacceptable if they do not show enough deference to Catholicism? Sounds like insecure Romanists throwing their weight around, lest their "Eastern lung" start thinking of actually breathing in an Eastern body, as opposed to being properly subservient to their Roman masters. Sad.
No, it sounds like that it is inappropriate to come into a Catholics home, and celebrate how un-catholic one now is. It's simply rude. What if an Eastern Orthodox Christian came to this forum and started a thread celebrating his defection from the EO Church? Is that appropriate here?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Shlomlokh on December 12, 2011, 01:50:00 PM
I apologize in advance for revisiting the subject of CAF - but this couldn't pass without comment ...

The EC (remember, that's 'Eastern Catholic' these days - not 'Eastern Christi0anity' as it was in our time) forum Mod has posted some new guidelines there on charitable and civil debate.

In keeping with the rules here, I won't quote her post, but the essence is that posters should think of themselves as "robots". When someone objects to something they've posted, they should run it through a decision-making chart and, having discerned the appropriate factual and non-emotional response, they should post that with "encyclopedia-like neutrality".

The narrative text is followed by debate guidelines, several of which are pretty mundane. But, my definite favorite - in keeping with the narrative that precedes the guidelines - is ... 

"Remember: your goal is to sound like an encyclopedia robot."   :o

Why didn't I think of that in my day as mod over there?  ???

The place never ceases to amaze.

Many years,

Neil
Probably because the bias in favor of Eastern Orthodoxy was palpable. When the moderator is allowing threads celebrating a Catholic's defection to Eastern Orthodoxy, he certainly cannot give the advice the provided above. He'd have to practice what he preaches first.
What's the problem? From your church's position, they were just moving to the other lung.

In Christ,
Andrew
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Papist on December 12, 2011, 01:57:03 PM
I apologize in advance for revisiting the subject of CAF - but this couldn't pass without comment ...

The EC (remember, that's 'Eastern Catholic' these days - not 'Eastern Christi0anity' as it was in our time) forum Mod has posted some new guidelines there on charitable and civil debate.

In keeping with the rules here, I won't quote her post, but the essence is that posters should think of themselves as "robots". When someone objects to something they've posted, they should run it through a decision-making chart and, having discerned the appropriate factual and non-emotional response, they should post that with "encyclopedia-like neutrality".

The narrative text is followed by debate guidelines, several of which are pretty mundane. But, my definite favorite - in keeping with the narrative that precedes the guidelines - is ... 

"Remember: your goal is to sound like an encyclopedia robot."   :o

Why didn't I think of that in my day as mod over there?  ???

The place never ceases to amaze.

Many years,

Neil
Probably because the bias in favor of Eastern Orthodoxy was palpable. When the moderator is allowing threads celebrating a Catholic's defection to Eastern Orthodoxy, he certainly cannot give the advice the provided above. He'd have to practice what he preaches first.
What's the problem? From your church's position, they were just moving to the other lung.

In Christ,
Andrew
The other lung is the collection of eastern traditions and theology, not the Eastern Orthodox Church, which we still view as being in schism from the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. The fact that the Catholic Church views it in this way, can be seen from the magisterium's response to the Zohby initiative.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: danman916 on December 12, 2011, 02:14:06 PM
there's a reason why many people (and this latin rite Catholic) rarely, if ever, post over there anymore.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Jetavan on December 12, 2011, 02:20:11 PM
there's a reason why many people (and this latin rite Catholic) rarely, if ever, post over there anymore.
Some of us are banned for life.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: stanley123 on December 12, 2011, 02:33:42 PM
there's a reason why many people (and this latin rite Catholic) rarely, if ever, post over there anymore.
Some of us are banned for life.
This is one of the most unreasonable things that I can think of. I don't know why Joe Monahan would ban people for life, thereby giving them no chance for redemption.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: JR on December 12, 2011, 02:36:43 PM
there's a reason why many people (and this latin rite Catholic) rarely, if ever, post over there anymore.
Some of us are banned for life.

Yes, and I am one of them, no warnings, no emails, just logged on to find a screen saying lifetime ban.

So mature of those robots lol

 ???
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Jetavan on December 12, 2011, 02:38:08 PM
there's a reason why many people (and this latin rite Catholic) rarely, if ever, post over there anymore.
Some of us are banned for life.
This is one of the most unreasonable things that I can think of. I don't know why Joe Monahan would ban people for life, thereby giving them no chance for redemption.
Redemption? What's that?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Orest on December 12, 2011, 02:39:14 PM
Is this all an inside joke"?  What is CAF?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: JR on December 12, 2011, 02:41:29 PM
there's a reason why many people (and this latin rite Catholic) rarely, if ever, post over there anymore.
Some of us are banned for life.
This is one of the most unreasonable things that I can think of. I don't know why Joe Monahan would ban people for life, thereby giving them no chance for redemption.
Redemption? What's that?

Redemption is something that CAF are not aware off !
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: stanley123 on December 12, 2011, 02:42:27 PM
there's a reason why many people (and this latin rite Catholic) rarely, if ever, post over there anymore.
Some of us are banned for life.
This is one of the most unreasonable things that I can think of. I don't know why Joe Monahan would ban people for life, thereby giving them no chance for redemption.
Redemption? What's that?
In this context, I meant lifting the ban. It was an attempt at kindof a joke.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Schultz on December 12, 2011, 02:50:33 PM
I apologize in advance for revisiting the subject of CAF - but this couldn't pass without comment ...

The EC (remember, that's 'Eastern Catholic' these days - not 'Eastern Christi0anity' as it was in our time) forum Mod has posted some new guidelines there on charitable and civil debate.

In keeping with the rules here, I won't quote her post, but the essence is that posters should think of themselves as "robots". When someone objects to something they've posted, they should run it through a decision-making chart and, having discerned the appropriate factual and non-emotional response, they should post that with "encyclopedia-like neutrality".

The narrative text is followed by debate guidelines, several of which are pretty mundane. But, my definite favorite - in keeping with the narrative that precedes the guidelines - is ... 

"Remember: your goal is to sound like an encyclopedia robot."   :o

Why didn't I think of that in my day as mod over there?  ???

The place never ceases to amaze.

Many years,

Neil
Probably because the bias in favor of Eastern Orthodoxy was palpable. When the moderator is allowing threads celebrating a Catholic's defection to Eastern Orthodoxy, he certainly cannot give the advice the provided above. He'd have to practice what he preaches first.
What's the problem? From your church's position, they were just moving to the other lung.

In Christ,
Andrew
The other lung is the collection of eastern traditions and theology, not the Eastern Orthodox Church, which we still view as being in schism from the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. The fact that the Catholic Church views it in this way, can be seen from the magisterium's response to the Zohby initiative.

If this is totally true, why are Orthodox Christians allowed to commune in RC churches?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Papist on December 12, 2011, 02:54:04 PM
I apologize in advance for revisiting the subject of CAF - but this couldn't pass without comment ...

The EC (remember, that's 'Eastern Catholic' these days - not 'Eastern Christi0anity' as it was in our time) forum Mod has posted some new guidelines there on charitable and civil debate.

In keeping with the rules here, I won't quote her post, but the essence is that posters should think of themselves as "robots". When someone objects to something they've posted, they should run it through a decision-making chart and, having discerned the appropriate factual and non-emotional response, they should post that with "encyclopedia-like neutrality".

The narrative text is followed by debate guidelines, several of which are pretty mundane. But, my definite favorite - in keeping with the narrative that precedes the guidelines - is ...  

"Remember: your goal is to sound like an encyclopedia robot."   :o

Why didn't I think of that in my day as mod over there?  ???

The place never ceases to amaze.

Many years,

Neil
Probably because the bias in favor of Eastern Orthodoxy was palpable. When the moderator is allowing threads celebrating a Catholic's defection to Eastern Orthodoxy, he certainly cannot give the advice the provided above. He'd have to practice what he preaches first.
What's the problem? From your church's position, they were just moving to the other lung.

In Christ,
Andrew
The other lung is the collection of eastern traditions and theology, not the Eastern Orthodox Church, which we still view as being in schism from the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. The fact that the Catholic Church views it in this way, can be seen from the magisterium's response to the Zohby initiative.

If this is totally true, why are Orthodox Christians allowed to commune in RC churches?
Good questions. Probably because your faith is close enough to ours, and that you have a partial unity with Catholics, in that you have valid sacrments. This does not mean we think you are the Church, but we do think that elements of the Church exist in Eastern Orthodoxy. Evidence that we don't view your Church as part of "the Church" is found in the fact that we will not concelebrate liturgy with the Eastern Orthodox.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cavaradossi on December 12, 2011, 03:06:53 PM
I apologize in advance for revisiting the subject of CAF - but this couldn't pass without comment ...

The EC (remember, that's 'Eastern Catholic' these days - not 'Eastern Christi0anity' as it was in our time) forum Mod has posted some new guidelines there on charitable and civil debate.

In keeping with the rules here, I won't quote her post, but the essence is that posters should think of themselves as "robots". When someone objects to something they've posted, they should run it through a decision-making chart and, having discerned the appropriate factual and non-emotional response, they should post that with "encyclopedia-like neutrality".

The narrative text is followed by debate guidelines, several of which are pretty mundane. But, my definite favorite - in keeping with the narrative that precedes the guidelines - is ... 

"Remember: your goal is to sound like an encyclopedia robot."   :o

Why didn't I think of that in my day as mod over there?  ???

The place never ceases to amaze.

Many years,

Neil
Probably because the bias in favor of Eastern Orthodoxy was palpable. When the moderator is allowing threads celebrating a Catholic's defection to Eastern Orthodoxy, he certainly cannot give the advice the provided above. He'd have to practice what he preaches first.

Don't worry, I'm sure he'll burn in hell for causing you such grievous offense. (Or maybe you can just let go of such silly grievances, if you possess the maturity).
I would hope that you would possess the maturity to be able to address a relevant issue. Joe's moderation of that subform was constantly painted by his biases, yet he is suggesting that the posters on CAF should not let their emotions get involved. This is problematic. When you defend this it appears that  you support bias, but I hope that is not the case.

Joe is no longer a mod at CAF. That handle has been 'retired.' This is a different moderator who posted the quoted request.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: biro on December 12, 2011, 03:39:38 PM
Quote from: Schultz
If this is totally true, why are Orthodox Christians allowed to commune in RC churches?

Yes, that was still the policy listed in the last Roman Missal I had, not too long ago. As far as I know, they accept Eastern Orthodox to Communion. Not sure what the rule is in regard to Oriental Orthodox.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: the slave on December 12, 2011, 03:46:21 PM
.......

Joe is no longer a mod at CAF. That handle has been 'retired.' This is a different moderator who posted the quoted request.

Ummm Joe did not retire - he was forcibly retired :( and has now been banned  - like many of us
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Schultz on December 12, 2011, 03:47:47 PM
I apologize in advance for revisiting the subject of CAF - but this couldn't pass without comment ...

The EC (remember, that's 'Eastern Catholic' these days - not 'Eastern Christi0anity' as it was in our time) forum Mod has posted some new guidelines there on charitable and civil debate.

In keeping with the rules here, I won't quote her post, but the essence is that posters should think of themselves as "robots". When someone objects to something they've posted, they should run it through a decision-making chart and, having discerned the appropriate factual and non-emotional response, they should post that with "encyclopedia-like neutrality".

The narrative text is followed by debate guidelines, several of which are pretty mundane. But, my definite favorite - in keeping with the narrative that precedes the guidelines - is ...  

"Remember: your goal is to sound like an encyclopedia robot."   :o

Why didn't I think of that in my day as mod over there?  ???

The place never ceases to amaze.

Many years,

Neil
Probably because the bias in favor of Eastern Orthodoxy was palpable. When the moderator is allowing threads celebrating a Catholic's defection to Eastern Orthodoxy, he certainly cannot give the advice the provided above. He'd have to practice what he preaches first.
What's the problem? From your church's position, they were just moving to the other lung.

In Christ,
Andrew
The other lung is the collection of eastern traditions and theology, not the Eastern Orthodox Church, which we still view as being in schism from the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. The fact that the Catholic Church views it in this way, can be seen from the magisterium's response to the Zohby initiative.

If this is totally true, why are Orthodox Christians allowed to commune in RC churches?
Good questions. Probably because your faith is close enough to ours, and that you have a partial unity with Catholics, in that you have valid sacrments. This does not mean we think you are the Church, but we do think that elements of the Church exist in Eastern Orthodoxy. Evidence that we don't view your Church as part of "the Church" is found in the fact that we will not concelebrate liturgy with the Eastern Orthodox.

So I can go to communion in a church that I have only "partial" unity with?  That doesn't make any sense.  I was always taught that receiving communion meant that you were in "union" with the Church.  

As for your final statement, I'm pretty sure that's because of the other way around, that the Orthodox will not concelebrate with Roman Catholics.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on December 12, 2011, 03:56:15 PM
Schultz: The Roman church essentially says "close enough". I don't get it either, but what I was taught in RCIA is that the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches are closer to one another than any other two churches, and hence, while not being in full union, the Eastern Orthodox who is properly disposed may commune due to that perceived closeness. It's like you're more estranged than separated. This goes along with the view expressed by many Romans that the schism should be healed already, as it was mostly a result of human pride and arrogance or some such.

Again, I don't get it, but that's what I remember hearing when I asked my priest this very question. It seems that the Roman Catholic Church sees unity in terms of degree rather than absolutes
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Maria on December 12, 2011, 04:06:05 PM
I am a sleeper agent there, just lurk very infrequently, but do not post.
Therefore, I have not yet been banned.

Oh, I just noticed that the OCD/Scrupulosity Group is the most active thread at CAF.  ::)
Why does this not surprise me? The Baltimore Catechism promotes scrupulosity with its definition of mortal and venial sins.


Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cavaradossi on December 12, 2011, 04:08:28 PM
.......

Joe is no longer a mod at CAF. That handle has been 'retired.' This is a different moderator who posted the quoted request.

Ummm Joe did not retire - he was forcibly retired :( and has now been banned  - like many of us

Yes, that's why I wrote, 'retired,' and not simply retired without the scare quotes.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Schultz on December 12, 2011, 04:18:12 PM
Schultz: The Roman church essentially says "close enough". I don't get it either, but what I was taught in RCIA is that the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches are closer to one another than any other two churches, and hence, while not being in full union, the Eastern Orthodox who is properly disposed may commune due to that perceived closeness. It's like you're more estranged than separated. This goes along with the view expressed by many Romans that the schism should be healed already, as it was mostly a result of human pride and arrogance or some such.

Again, I don't get it, but that's what I remember hearing when I asked my priest this very question. It seems that the Roman Catholic Church sees unity in terms of degree rather than absolutes

Oh, I know what the Roman church says.  I'm just trying to understand Papist's remark in light of the fact that I can, were I so inclined, skip up to the Basilica during lunch and receive communion if I wanted to do so.

Communion is a mark of who is "in church" and who is not. 
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Maria on December 12, 2011, 04:28:23 PM
Schultz: The Roman church essentially says "close enough". I don't get it either, but what I was taught in RCIA is that the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches are closer to one another than any other two churches, and hence, while not being in full union, the Eastern Orthodox who is properly disposed may commune due to that perceived closeness. It's like you're more estranged than separated. This goes along with the view expressed by many Romans that the schism should be healed already, as it was mostly a result of human pride and arrogance or some such.

Again, I don't get it, but that's what I remember hearing when I asked my priest this very question. It seems that the Roman Catholic Church sees unity in terms of degree rather than absolutes

Oh, I know what the Roman church says.  I'm just trying to understand Papist's remark in light of the fact that I can, were I so inclined, skip up to the Basilica during lunch and receive communion if I wanted to do so.

Communion is a mark of who is "in church" and who is not. 

Exactly, the Roman Catholic Church has a very confused sense of ecclesiology.
This comes from modernism, does it not?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Schultz on December 12, 2011, 04:31:27 PM
Schultz: The Roman church essentially says "close enough". I don't get it either, but what I was taught in RCIA is that the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches are closer to one another than any other two churches, and hence, while not being in full union, the Eastern Orthodox who is properly disposed may commune due to that perceived closeness. It's like you're more estranged than separated. This goes along with the view expressed by many Romans that the schism should be healed already, as it was mostly a result of human pride and arrogance or some such.

Again, I don't get it, but that's what I remember hearing when I asked my priest this very question. It seems that the Roman Catholic Church sees unity in terms of degree rather than absolutes

Oh, I know what the Roman church says.  I'm just trying to understand Papist's remark in light of the fact that I can, were I so inclined, skip up to the Basilica during lunch and receive communion if I wanted to do so.

Communion is a mark of who is "in church" and who is not. 

Exactly, the Roman Catholic Church has a very confused sense of ecclesiology.
This comes from modernism, does it not?

That, I don't know.

All I know is that a church that prides its theology on being logical and forthright has a very strange sense of ecclesiology whereby a religious body cannot be considered "part of the church" but whose adherents are allowed to receive the one thing that exemplifies being "part of the church:" namely Holy Communion.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: stanley123 on December 12, 2011, 04:47:39 PM
Schultz: The Roman church essentially says "close enough". I don't get it either, but what I was taught in RCIA is that the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches are closer to one another than any other two churches, and hence, while not being in full union, the Eastern Orthodox who is properly disposed may commune due to that perceived closeness. It's like you're more estranged than separated. This goes along with the view expressed by many Romans that the schism should be healed already, as it was mostly a result of human pride and arrogance or some such.

Again, I don't get it, but that's what I remember hearing when I asked my priest this very question. It seems that the Roman Catholic Church sees unity in terms of degree rather than absolutes

Oh, I know what the Roman church says.  I'm just trying to understand Papist's remark in light of the fact that I can, were I so inclined, skip up to the Basilica during lunch and receive communion if I wanted to do so.

Communion is a mark of who is "in church" and who is not. 

Exactly, the Roman Catholic Church has a very confused sense of ecclesiology.
This comes from modernism, does it not?

That, I don't know.

All I know is that a church that prides its theology on being logical and forthright has a very strange sense of ecclesiology whereby a religious body cannot be considered "part of the church" but whose adherents are allowed to receive the one thing that exemplifies being "part of the church:" namely Holy Communion.
The idea of union comes about from the Catholic teaching that both Churches have a valid Eucharist. It is not seen as a full union.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: LBK on December 12, 2011, 04:54:40 PM
Quote
All I know is that a church that prides its theology on being logical and forthright has a very strange sense of ecclesiology whereby a religious body cannot be considered "part of the church" but whose adherents are allowed to receive the one thing that exemplifies being "part of the church:" namely Holy Communion.

Oh, this is brilliant! Hoist by their own petards. Thanks for this, Schultz!
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on December 12, 2011, 04:56:56 PM

Probably because the bias in favor of Eastern Orthodoxy was palpable. When the moderator is allowing threads celebrating a Catholic's defection to Eastern Orthodoxy, he certainly cannot give the advice the provided above. He'd have to practice what he preaches first.

<quoting myself>:    Thy memory doth fail thee.  I do not recall threads celebrating Catholic conversion to the big O's.   I recall one such thread and the Orthodox response made it clear that they found it distasteful.  I further recall that the section moderator Joe Monahan made a ruling that such a thread would not be tolerated, on either side.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Papist on December 12, 2011, 05:12:41 PM

Probably because the bias in favor of Eastern Orthodoxy was palpable. When the moderator is allowing threads celebrating a Catholic's defection to Eastern Orthodoxy, he certainly cannot give the advice the provided above. He'd have to practice what he preaches first.

<quoting myself>:    Thy memory doth fail thee.  I do not recall threads celebrating Catholic conversion to the big O's.   I recall one such thread and the Orthodox response made it clear that they found it distasteful.  I further recall that the section moderator Joe Monahan made a ruling that such a thread would not be tolerated, on either side.
I remember an instance when I brought up such a thread to him, and he refused to do anything about it.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Papist on December 12, 2011, 05:16:00 PM
I need to profess a huge mistake on my part and beg Neil's forgiveness. I was confusing Irish Melkite with the moderator Joe. They are most certainly not the same person, and the accusations I was making were directed at Joe.

Neil, I am very sorry. This is a huge mistake on my part. I don't know why I was conflating the two of you. A case of mistaken identity. I really don't know anything about your moderator days over there. Please forgive me.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on December 12, 2011, 05:27:46 PM
The other lung is the collection of eastern traditions and theology, not the Eastern Orthodox Church, which we still view as being in schism from the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

Your statement appears out of synch with the teaching of the Pope.

In an address to the Eastern Orthodox Archbishop of Cyprus, Pope Benedict XVI invoked the language of Pope John Paul II and clearly refers to the Eastern Orthodox Church as one of the two lungs of the Church:

"Thank you, Your Beatitude, for this gesture of esteem and brotherly friendship. In you, I greet the Pastor of an ancient and illustrious Church, a shining tessera of that bright mosaic, the East, which, to use a favourite phrase of the Servant of God John Paul II of venerable memory, constitutes one of the two lungs with which the Church breathes."

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2007/june/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20070616_chrysostomos-ii_en.html


The Pope has worded this wondrously skilfully.  He is saying that the Church of Cyprus is one of the tesserae (a tile which constitutes part of a mosaic) which "constitutes one of the two lungs with which the Church breathes."

Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Deacon Lance on December 12, 2011, 06:07:19 PM
I apologize in advance for revisiting the subject of CAF - but this couldn't pass without comment ...

The EC (remember, that's 'Eastern Catholic' these days - not 'Eastern Christi0anity' as it was in our time) forum Mod has posted some new guidelines there on charitable and civil debate.

In keeping with the rules here, I won't quote her post, but the essence is that posters should think of themselves as "robots". When someone objects to something they've posted, they should run it through a decision-making chart and, having discerned the appropriate factual and non-emotional response, they should post that with "encyclopedia-like neutrality".

The narrative text is followed by debate guidelines, several of which are pretty mundane. But, my definite favorite - in keeping with the narrative that precedes the guidelines - is ...  

"Remember: your goal is to sound like an encyclopedia robot."   :o

Why didn't I think of that in my day as mod over there?  ???

The place never ceases to amaze.

Many years,

Neil
Probably because the bias in favor of Eastern Orthodoxy was palpable. When the moderator is allowing threads celebrating a Catholic's defection to Eastern Orthodoxy, he certainly cannot give the advice the provided above. He'd have to practice what he preaches first.
What's the problem? From your church's position, they were just moving to the other lung.

In Christ,
Andrew
The other lung is the collection of eastern traditions and theology, not the Eastern Orthodox Church, which we still view as being in schism from the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. The fact that the Catholic Church views it in this way, can be seen from the magisterium's response to the Zohby initiative.

If this is totally true, why are Orthodox Christians allowed to commune in RC churches?
Good questions. Probably because your faith is close enough to ours, and that you have a partial unity with Catholics, in that you have valid sacrments. This does not mean we think you are the Church, but we do think that elements of the Church exist in Eastern Orthodoxy. Evidence that we don't view your Church as part of "the Church" is found in the fact that we will not concelebrate liturgy with the Eastern Orthodox.

The Catholic Church does view the various Orthodox Churches as true particular Churches which in turn makes them part of The Church, although imperfectly, which is why we can offer them the sacraments but refrain from full concelebration.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on December 12, 2011, 06:13:26 PM
I apologize in advance for revisiting the subject of CAF - but this couldn't pass without comment ...

The EC (remember, that's 'Eastern Catholic' these days - not 'Eastern Christi0anity' as it was in our time) forum Mod has posted some new guidelines there on charitable and civil debate.

In keeping with the rules here, I won't quote her post, but the essence is that posters should think of themselves as "robots". When someone objects to something they've posted, they should run it through a decision-making chart and, having discerned the appropriate factual and non-emotional response, they should post that with "encyclopedia-like neutrality".

The narrative text is followed by debate guidelines, several of which are pretty mundane. But, my definite favorite - in keeping with the narrative that precedes the guidelines - is ...  

"Remember: your goal is to sound like an encyclopedia robot."   :o

Why didn't I think of that in my day as mod over there?  ???

The place never ceases to amaze.

Many years,

Neil
Probably because the bias in favor of Eastern Orthodoxy was palpable. When the moderator is allowing threads celebrating a Catholic's defection to Eastern Orthodoxy, he certainly cannot give the advice the provided above. He'd have to practice what he preaches first.
What's the problem? From your church's position, they were just moving to the other lung.

In Christ,
Andrew
The other lung is the collection of eastern traditions and theology, not the Eastern Orthodox Church, which we still view as being in schism from the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. The fact that the Catholic Church views it in this way, can be seen from the magisterium's response to the Zohby initiative.

If this is totally true, why are Orthodox Christians allowed to commune in RC churches?
Good questions. Probably because your faith is close enough to ours, and that you have a partial unity with Catholics, in that you have valid sacrments. This does not mean we think you are the Church, but we do think that elements of the Church exist in Eastern Orthodoxy. Evidence that we don't view your Church as part of "the Church" is found in the fact that we will not concelebrate liturgy with the Eastern Orthodox.

The Catholic Church does view the various Orthodox Churches as true particular Churches which in turn makes them part of The Church, although imperfectly, which is why we can offer them the sacraments but refrain from full concelebration.

And yet is that not offering the greater thing (communion) and refraining from the lesser (concelebration)?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: podkarpatska on December 12, 2011, 06:27:19 PM
^^Thank you Fr. A and Fr. Deacon for your answers, I was going to attempt to say the same as Papist's understanding is not what his Church has been proclaiming the past number of years.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: podkarpatska on December 12, 2011, 06:28:22 PM
Quote
All I know is that a church that prides its theology on being logical and forthright has a very strange sense of ecclesiology whereby a religious body cannot be considered "part of the church" but whose adherents are allowed to receive the one thing that exemplifies being "part of the church:" namely Holy Communion.

Oh, this is brilliant! Hoist by their own petards. Thanks for this, Schultz!

And indeed the exact point of the Orthodox side in the North American consultations!
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on December 12, 2011, 06:31:53 PM
I apologize in advance for revisiting the subject of CAF - but this couldn't pass without comment ...

The EC (remember, that's 'Eastern Catholic' these days - not 'Eastern Christi0anity' as it was in our time) forum Mod has posted some new guidelines there on charitable and civil debate.

In keeping with the rules here, I won't quote her post, but the essence is that posters should think of themselves as "robots". When someone objects to something they've posted, they should run it through a decision-making chart and, having discerned the appropriate factual and non-emotional response, they should post that with "encyclopedia-like neutrality".

The narrative text is followed by debate guidelines, several of which are pretty mundane. But, my definite favorite - in keeping with the narrative that precedes the guidelines - is ...  

"Remember: your goal is to sound like an encyclopedia robot."   :o

Why didn't I think of that in my day as mod over there?  ???

The place never ceases to amaze.

Many years,

Neil
Probably because the bias in favor of Eastern Orthodoxy was palpable. When the moderator is allowing threads celebrating a Catholic's defection to Eastern Orthodoxy, he certainly cannot give the advice the provided above. He'd have to practice what he preaches first.

Your defective assesment of our old CAF moderator is incorrigible.  :'(

Message 1276
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13287.msg218901.html#msg218901
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Jetavan on December 12, 2011, 06:47:56 PM
Is this all an inside joke"?  What is CAF?
The Forum at Catholic Answers dot com.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Deacon Lance on December 12, 2011, 06:51:50 PM
And yet is that not offering the greater thing (communion) and refraining from the lesser (concelebration)?

Yes.  But it is the right thing in my opinion.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on December 12, 2011, 06:57:33 PM
Hmm. Do you mind if I ask how you come to that conclusion, Deacon Lance? Because my initial reaction was one of confusion, as I thought the same thing that Irish Hermit thought. It's a bit like getting turned down for a $500 loan from the bank, only to have them offer you a $500,000 loan instead.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Papist on December 12, 2011, 07:17:18 PM
^^Thank you Fr. A and Fr. Deacon for your answers, I was going to attempt to say the same as Papist's understanding is not what his Church has been proclaiming the past number of years.
The manner in which the pope addresses a heirarch of your church does not determine Catholic teaching. If you read Zoghby initiative and receent magesterial documents, the Eastern Othodox Church is considered deficient because of its lack of communion with Rome. These documents hold more weight than a papal address to an Eastern Orthodox bishop. Futher, councils teach that communion with Rome is necessary for one to be a member of the Church. These hold higher authority than a speach, greeting, or address from the Pope.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on December 12, 2011, 07:30:50 PM
What weight does the Zoghby initiative hold, exactly? It was rejected by Ratzinger when he was Cardinal, so I would be extremely surprised to find it elevated now that he is Pope.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Papist on December 12, 2011, 07:40:41 PM
What weight does the Zoghby initiative hold, exactly? It was rejected by Ratzinger when he was Cardinal, so I would be extremely surprised to find it elevated now that he is Pope.
The Zoghby intiative holds no weight. However, the magesterial response to the initiative holds a great deal of weight. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that point. Mea Culpa.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Deacon Lance on December 12, 2011, 07:55:45 PM
^^Thank you Fr. A and Fr. Deacon for your answers, I was going to attempt to say the same as Papist's understanding is not what his Church has been proclaiming the past number of years.
The manner in which the pope addresses a heirarch of your church does not determine Catholic teaching. If you read Zoghby initiative and receent magesterial documents, the Eastern Othodox Church is considered deficient because of its lack of communion with Rome. These documents hold more weight than a papal address to an Eastern Orthodox bishop. Futher, councils teach that communion with Rome is necessary for one to be a member of the Church. These hold higher authority than a speach, greeting, or address from the Pope.

Please reread Dominus Iesus:

17.  Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him.58 The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches.59 Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.60

On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery,61 are not Churches in the proper sense; however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.62

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Deacon Lance on December 12, 2011, 08:07:56 PM
Hmm. Do you mind if I ask how you come to that conclusion, Deacon Lance? Because my initial reaction was one of confusion, as I thought the same thing that Irish Hermit thought. It's a bit like getting turned down for a $500 loan from the bank, only to have them offer you a $500,000 loan instead.

It is a great paradox is it not?  Hierarchal concelebration would require reunion, something that is very hard to aquire and in fact may never happen before our Lord returns.  On the otherhand, communing members of seperated sister churches is very easy to do and in fact may happen quite more often before our Lord returns. 
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Papist on December 12, 2011, 08:28:03 PM
^^Thank you Fr. A and Fr. Deacon for your answers, I was going to attempt to say the same as Papist's understanding is not what his Church has been proclaiming the past number of years.
The manner in which the pope addresses a heirarch of your church does not determine Catholic teaching. If you read Zoghby initiative and receent magesterial documents, the Eastern Othodox Church is considered deficient because of its lack of communion with Rome. These documents hold more weight than a papal address to an Eastern Orthodox bishop. Futher, councils teach that communion with Rome is necessary for one to be a member of the Church. These hold higher authority than a speach, greeting, or address from the Pope.

Please reread Dominus Iesus:

17.  Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him.58 The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches.59 Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.60

On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery,61 are not Churches in the proper sense; however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.62

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html
I've read this, and modern Church documents must be interpreted in light of past teaching. If communion with Rome is necessary to be in communion with the Catholic Church, then your interpretation of Dominus Iesus is incorrect. Notice that it says the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church. Then in other apostolic communions, it says that the Church is present an opperative there. It subsists in the Catholic Church beacuse the Catholic Church is one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. It is only present and operative in the other Church, and this is true because because those Church participate in the sacraments that are properly Catholic. Thus, the Church is present in those sacraments, but they are still in schism form the Church.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Marc1152 on December 12, 2011, 08:40:15 PM
there's a reason why many people (and this latin rite Catholic) rarely, if ever, post over there anymore.
Some of us are banned for life.

Yes, and I am one of them, no warnings, no emails, just logged on to find a screen saying lifetime ban.

So mature of those robots lol

 ???

Ditto..never had a warning.. never got an email... no chance to reply...Just got banned one day

Sometimes robots ask good questions:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZUNLV7e3vU
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: elijahmaria on December 13, 2011, 01:47:24 AM
Schultz: The Roman church essentially says "close enough". I don't get it either, but what I was taught in RCIA is that the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches are closer to one another than any other two churches, and hence, while not being in full union, the Eastern Orthodox who is properly disposed may commune due to that perceived closeness. It's like you're more estranged than separated. This goes along with the view expressed by many Romans that the schism should be healed already, as it was mostly a result of human pride and arrogance or some such.

Again, I don't get it, but that's what I remember hearing when I asked my priest this very question. It seems that the Roman Catholic Church sees unity in terms of degree rather than absolutes

Oh, I know what the Roman church says.  I'm just trying to understand Papist's remark in light of the fact that I can, were I so inclined, skip up to the Basilica during lunch and receive communion if I wanted to do so.

Communion is a mark of who is "in church" and who is not. 

Exactly, the Roman Catholic Church has a very confused sense of ecclesiology.
This comes from modernism, does it not?

That, I don't know.

All I know is that a church that prides its theology on being logical and forthright has a very strange sense of ecclesiology whereby a religious body cannot be considered "part of the church" but whose adherents are allowed to receive the one thing that exemplifies being "part of the church:" namely Holy Communion.

Some folks haven't caught up yet.

Maybe they miss it because Orthodox believers are so quick to tell them "So what?"... ;)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on December 13, 2011, 04:27:56 AM
Hmm. Do you mind if I ask how you come to that conclusion, Deacon Lance? Because my initial reaction was one of confusion, as I thought the same thing that Irish Hermit thought. It's a bit like getting turned down for a $500 loan from the bank, only to have them offer you a $500,000 loan instead.

It is a great paradox is it not?  Hierarchal concelebration would require reunion, something that is very hard to aquire and in fact may never happen before our Lord returns.  On the otherhand, communing members of seperated sister churches is very easy to do and in fact may happen quite more often before our Lord returns. 


To Orthodox eyes the Catholic position seems inconsistent.

From "Communion and Intercommunion"  by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware:


“Eucharistic ecclesiology implies therefore, a threefold unity: Eucharistic unity, that is unity in the one loaf and the one cup of Holy Communion; Dogmatic unity, that is, unity in the one Faith; and Ecclesial unity, that is, unity in the bishop.

“Therefore, intercommunion, or the sharing of sacraments between churches that do not share the same faith and/or bishop is a virtual impossibility. The Bible, the Church Fathers, and the Holy Canons know of only two possibilities: Communion and non-communion. It is all or nothing. Admitting one to communion and to church membership are identical; to what church one belongs is manifested where he receives communion, or where he is admitted to communion.”
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Melkite on December 13, 2011, 04:36:31 AM
I need to profess a huge mistake on my part and beg Neil's forgiveness. I was confusing Irish Melkite with the moderator Joe. They are most certainly not the same person, and the accusations I was making were directed at Joe.

Neil, I am very sorry. This is a huge mistake on my part. I don't know why I was conflating the two of you. A case of mistaken identity. I really don't know anything about your moderator days over there. Please forgive me.

Chris,

No need to apologize or ask forgiveness. Actually, 'Joe Monahan' and I are one and the same person (to which Father Ambrose and a few other folk here - OzGeorge being one who comes to mind - can testify; in fact, I think - but may be wrong - that at some point after the classic CAF thread here, I publicly acknowledged my dual identity). CAF policy requires that mods create and use a nick other than the one under which they posted (so as to not bring any issues from their known identity into the mod role). I chose to adopt the name of a priest whom I knew as a youth and much admired.

(During my tenure as 'Joe', I'm fairly certain that only one active poster to the EC forum at CAF was aware of 'who' Joe was. He discovered it by accident when I accidently logged on as Joe - intending to do so as Irish Melkite - and signed off my post with my usual 'Many years' and real-life name. I quickly discovered my error and yanked the post, but one poster was on-line at the time and spotted it. He was and is a long-time, very trusted, friend and never divulged the info.)

As regards my 'bias', I'm pretty comfortable in the recollection that I was even-handed and would like to believe that most regulars on that forum believed that. Those who perceived bias were generally non-Easterners who had problems understanding the relationships that often existed between ECs and EOs there. Those were relationships that were characterized by debate, sometimes very spirited debate, but also by mutual respect and camaraderie, in which ECs and EOs regularly came to the support of one another when Latin triumphalism reared its head and attacked one or the other as being less 'Catholic'/'catholic' or less 'Orthodox'/'orthodox' than Latins.

I fully imagine that some of those who perceived me as biased would be surprised to discover that 'Joe Monahan' hasn't translated his ecclesial allegiance to the Orthodox Church (since they are so convinced that I allowed 'Catholic-bashing' by the Orthodox members of that forum) - well, I haven't, nor will I in this lifetime. I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren and firmly believe that the absolute fullness of our faiths will only be achieved in the ultimate union of the two, when the Holy Spirit tires of the divisions that man has created and leads the respective hierarchs to find the common ground on which they can and must unite. Would that it would happen in my lifetime, but I doubt that.

As regards 'conversion stories', ... I suggest you read this - the one and only post made to this site by 'Joe' (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13287.msg233052.html#msg233052), in which I discuss that issue among others. You'll find it very much like what Father Ambrose has already said on the topic.

Many years,

Neil

Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Papist on December 13, 2011, 09:26:28 AM
I need to profess a huge mistake on my part and beg Neil's forgiveness. I was confusing Irish Melkite with the moderator Joe. They are most certainly not the same person, and the accusations I was making were directed at Joe.

Neil, I am very sorry. This is a huge mistake on my part. I don't know why I was conflating the two of you. A case of mistaken identity. I really don't know anything about your moderator days over there. Please forgive me.

Chris,

No need to apologize or ask forgiveness. Actually, 'Joe Monahan' and I are one and the same person (to which Father Ambrose and a few other folk here - OzGeorge being one who comes to mind - can testify; in fact, I think - but may be wrong - that at some point after the classic CAF thread here, I publicly acknowledged my dual identity). CAF policy requires that mods create and use a nick other than the one under which they posted (so as to not bring any issues from their known identity into the mod role). I chose to adopt the name of a priest whom I knew as a youth and much admired.

(During my tenure as 'Joe', I'm fairly certain that only one active poster to the EC forum at CAF was aware of 'who' Joe was. He discovered it by accident when I accidently logged on as Joe - intending to do so as Irish Melkite - and signed off my post with my usual 'Many years' and real-life name. I quickly discovered my error and yanked the post, but one poster was on-line at the time and spotted it. He was and is a long-time, very trusted, friend and never divulged the info.)

As regards my 'bias', I'm pretty comfortable in the recollection that I was even-handed and would like to believe that most regulars on that forum believed that. Those who perceived bias were generally non-Easterners who had problems understanding the relationships that often existed between ECs and EOs there. Those were relationships that were characterized by debate, sometimes very spirited debate, but also by mutual respect and camaraderie, in which ECs and EOs regularly came to the support of one another when Latin triumphalism reared its head and attacked one or the other as being less 'Catholic'/'catholic' or less 'Orthodox'/'orthodox' than Latins.

I fully imagine that some of those who perceived me as biased would be surprised to discover that 'Joe Monahan' hasn't translated his ecclesial allegiance to the Orthodox Church (since they are so convinced that I allowed 'Catholic-bashing' by the Orthodox members of that forum) - well, I haven't, nor will I in this lifetime. I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren and firmly believe that the absolute fullness of our faiths will only be achieved in the ultimate union of the two, when the Holy Spirit tires of the divisions that man has created and leads the respective hierarchs to find the common ground on which they can and must unite. Would that it would happen in my lifetime, but I doubt that.

As regards 'conversion stories', ... I suggest you read this - the one and only post made to this site by 'Joe' (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13287.msg233052.html#msg233052), in which I discuss that issue among others. You'll find it very much like what Father Ambrose has already said on the topic.

Many years,

Neil


I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: FrChris on December 13, 2011, 10:06:40 AM
I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Oh, for Pete's sake.... ::)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Schultz on December 13, 2011, 10:15:18 AM
I need to profess a huge mistake on my part and beg Neil's forgiveness. I was confusing Irish Melkite with the moderator Joe. They are most certainly not the same person, and the accusations I was making were directed at Joe.

Neil, I am very sorry. This is a huge mistake on my part. I don't know why I was conflating the two of you. A case of mistaken identity. I really don't know anything about your moderator days over there. Please forgive me.

Chris,

No need to apologize or ask forgiveness. Actually, 'Joe Monahan' and I are one and the same person (to which Father Ambrose and a few other folk here - OzGeorge being one who comes to mind - can testify; in fact, I think - but may be wrong - that at some point after the classic CAF thread here, I publicly acknowledged my dual identity). CAF policy requires that mods create and use a nick other than the one under which they posted (so as to not bring any issues from their known identity into the mod role). I chose to adopt the name of a priest whom I knew as a youth and much admired.

(During my tenure as 'Joe', I'm fairly certain that only one active poster to the EC forum at CAF was aware of 'who' Joe was. He discovered it by accident when I accidently logged on as Joe - intending to do so as Irish Melkite - and signed off my post with my usual 'Many years' and real-life name. I quickly discovered my error and yanked the post, but one poster was on-line at the time and spotted it. He was and is a long-time, very trusted, friend and never divulged the info.)

As regards my 'bias', I'm pretty comfortable in the recollection that I was even-handed and would like to believe that most regulars on that forum believed that. Those who perceived bias were generally non-Easterners who had problems understanding the relationships that often existed between ECs and EOs there. Those were relationships that were characterized by debate, sometimes very spirited debate, but also by mutual respect and camaraderie, in which ECs and EOs regularly came to the support of one another when Latin triumphalism reared its head and attacked one or the other as being less 'Catholic'/'catholic' or less 'Orthodox'/'orthodox' than Latins.

I fully imagine that some of those who perceived me as biased would be surprised to discover that 'Joe Monahan' hasn't translated his ecclesial allegiance to the Orthodox Church (since they are so convinced that I allowed 'Catholic-bashing' by the Orthodox members of that forum) - well, I haven't, nor will I in this lifetime. I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren and firmly believe that the absolute fullness of our faiths will only be achieved in the ultimate union of the two, when the Holy Spirit tires of the divisions that man has created and leads the respective hierarchs to find the common ground on which they can and must unite. Would that it would happen in my lifetime, but I doubt that.

As regards 'conversion stories', ... I suggest you read this - the one and only post made to this site by 'Joe' (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13287.msg233052.html#msg233052), in which I discuss that issue among others. You'll find it very much like what Father Ambrose has already said on the topic.

Many years,

Neil


I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Where I'm from, they call this 'proof texting'.

Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: FrChris on December 13, 2011, 10:23:55 AM
I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Where I'm from, they call this 'proof texting'.



Proof texting, 'cherry picking', declaring a half full glass of water as being half empty, making an argument where really none exists...like all the examples I gave, it really describes the person and not the alleged act the person is describing.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: podkarpatska on December 13, 2011, 11:04:05 AM
I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Where I'm from, they call this 'proof texting'.



Proof texting, 'cherry picking', declaring a half full glass of water as being half empty, making an argument where really none exists...like all the examples I gave, it really describes the person and not the alleged act the person is describing.

Both here and on the ByzCath board, Irish Melkite is one of the most even tempered and thoughtful posters on the net. His inherent patience and kindness towards all shows throughout his many posts and the comments directed against his post on this thread do confirm Fr. Chris' statement.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: ialmisry on December 13, 2011, 11:05:15 AM
I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Oh, for Pete's sake.... ::)
or Petrine sake? :P
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on December 13, 2011, 11:33:04 AM
I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Posts like this one don't make it easy, Papist.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Marc1152 on December 13, 2011, 01:01:13 PM

JOE !!!!  Hey !!!!

Sorry..this is news to me.

Many years Joe...or Neil or Irish....whatever.... Love ya man !
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: FrChris on December 13, 2011, 01:18:25 PM
I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Oh, for Pete's sake.... ::)
or Petrine sake? :P

LOL!  :D
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Melkite on December 14, 2011, 04:09:49 AM
Quote from: Papist
Quote from: Irish Melkite
I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren
I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Chris,

You caught me  :-[ .  What was I thinking?  ???

Thank goodness you didn't point out my failure to also say it of my Eastern Catholic, Oriental Catholic &  Orthodox, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian & ACOE, Old Believer, Old Calendrist, Molokan, Dukhobory, and PNCC brethren, to say nothing of my Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant brethren, my Amish, Mennonite, Moravian, and Bruderhoff brethren, my Jewish brethren, my Wiccan brethren, my Cao Dai brethren, and my brethren of the myriad other Churches and faiths. Obviously, I'll never again be able to hold my head up in any house of worship other than an Eastern Orthodox temple. What to do???

Scariest part of it all, ... I think you're serious  :o

Many years,

Neil      
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: JR on December 14, 2011, 06:45:35 AM
Quote from: Papist
Quote from: Irish Melkite
I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren
I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Chris,

You caught me  :-[ .  What was I thinking?  ???

Thank goodness you didn't point out my failure to also say it of my Eastern Catholic, Oriental Catholic &  Orthodox, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian & ACOE, Old Believer, Old Calendrist, Molokan, Dukhobory, and PNCC brethren, to say nothing of my Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant brethren, my Amish, Mennonite, Moravian, and Bruderhoff brethren, my Jewish brethren, my Wiccan brethren, my Cao Dai brethren, and my brethren of the myriad other Churches and faiths. Obviously, I'll never again be able to hold my head up in any house of worship other than an Eastern Orthodox temple. What to do???

Scariest part of it all, ... I think you're serious  :o

Many years,

Neil      

LOL  ;)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Jetavan on December 14, 2011, 07:28:30 AM
Quote from: Papist
Quote from: Irish Melkite
I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren
I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Chris,

You caught me  :-[ .  What was I thinking?  ???

Thank goodness you didn't point out my failure to also say it of my Eastern Catholic, Oriental Catholic &  Orthodox, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian & ACOE, Old Believer, Old Calendrist, Molokan, Dukhobory, and PNCC brethren, to say nothing of my Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant brethren, my Amish, Mennonite, Moravian, and Bruderhoff brethren, my Jewish brethren, my Wiccan brethren, my Cao Dai brethren, and my brethren of the myriad other Churches and faiths. Obviously, I'll never again be able to hold my head up in any house of worship other than an Eastern Orthodox temple. What to do???

Scariest part of it all, ... I think you're serious  :o

Many years,

Neil      
Actually, by reading between the lines, I could sense your love and respect for your Cao Dai brethren.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: PeterTheAleut on December 14, 2011, 10:05:52 AM
Cao Dai? As in Holy Cao?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Jetavan on December 14, 2011, 10:46:58 AM
Cao Dai? As in Holy Cao?
More like Holy Dao:

Quote
Back in the 1920s, in Vietnam, a group of men holding a séance (http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week644/feature.html) had an experience that led them to found a new religion. It's called Cao Dai, and it includes not only attempts to communicate with spirits but the controversial teaching that all religions share a common principle. Lucky Severson visited Southeast Asia recently and sent us this report.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Jack Bauer on December 14, 2011, 11:16:20 AM
I still hand around CAF, but frankly, I do it at my own peril.  I'm hoping that this site will prove much better.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: elijahmaria on December 14, 2011, 11:35:15 AM
Quote from: Papist
Quote from: Irish Melkite
I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren
I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Chris,

You caught me  :-[ .  What was I thinking?  ???

Thank goodness you didn't point out my failure to also say it of my Eastern Catholic, Oriental Catholic &  Orthodox, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian & ACOE, Old Believer, Old Calendrist, Molokan, Dukhobory, and PNCC brethren, to say nothing of my Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant brethren, my Amish, Mennonite, Moravian, and Bruderhoff brethren, my Jewish brethren, my Wiccan brethren, my Cao Dai brethren, and my brethren of the myriad other Churches and faiths. Obviously, I'll never again be able to hold my head up in any house of worship other than an Eastern Orthodox temple. What to do???

Scariest part of it all, ... I think you're serious  :o

Many years,

Neil      

Are you trying to love him into trusting and relaxing or are you putting him in his place here?...I can't quite tell.  I mean they say you are so good and loving so I am sure you'd not be making fun of Papist or doing anything to confirm his worst fears.

M.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: ialmisry on December 14, 2011, 11:49:45 AM
Quote from: Papist
Quote from: Irish Melkite
I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren
I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Chris,

You caught me  :-[ .  What was I thinking?  ???

Thank goodness you didn't point out my failure to also say it of my Eastern Catholic, Oriental Catholic &  Orthodox, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian & ACOE, Old Believer, Old Calendrist, Molokan, Dukhobory, and PNCC brethren, to say nothing of my Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant brethren, my Amish, Mennonite, Moravian, and Bruderhoff brethren, my Jewish brethren, my Wiccan brethren, my Cao Dai brethren, and my brethren of the myriad other Churches and faiths. Obviously, I'll never again be able to hold my head up in any house of worship other than an Eastern Orthodox temple. What to do???

Scariest part of it all, ... I think you're serious  :o

Many years,

Neil      

Are you trying to love him into trusting and relaxing or are you putting him in his place here?...I can't quite tell.  I mean they say you are so good and loving so I am sure you'd not be making fun of Papist or doing anything to confirm his worst fears.

M.
To the pure all things are pure. To the impure, nothing is pure.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Papist on December 14, 2011, 02:25:26 PM
Quote from: Papist
Quote from: Irish Melkite
I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren
I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Chris,

You caught me  :-[ .  What was I thinking?  ???

Thank goodness you didn't point out my failure to also say it of my Eastern Catholic, Oriental Catholic &  Orthodox, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian & ACOE, Old Believer, Old Calendrist, Molokan, Dukhobory, and PNCC brethren, to say nothing of my Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant brethren, my Amish, Mennonite, Moravian, and Bruderhoff brethren, my Jewish brethren, my Wiccan brethren, my Cao Dai brethren, and my brethren of the myriad other Churches and faiths. Obviously, I'll never again be able to hold my head up in any house of worship other than an Eastern Orthodox temple. What to do???

Scariest part of it all, ... I think you're serious  :o

Many years,

Neil      
Neil/Joe, I had enough interaction with you at CAF to know that your concern was not fairness, but favoring those in schism from your communion over angainst your brethren in the Latin Church.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: J Michael on December 14, 2011, 02:54:33 PM
Quote from: Papist
Quote from: Irish Melkite
I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren
I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Chris,

You caught me  :-[ .  What was I thinking?  ???

Thank goodness you didn't point out my failure to also say it of my Eastern Catholic, Oriental Catholic &  Orthodox, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian & ACOE, Old Believer, Old Calendrist, Molokan, Dukhobory, and PNCC brethren, to say nothing of my Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant brethren, my Amish, Mennonite, Moravian, and Bruderhoff brethren, my Jewish brethren, my Wiccan brethren, my Cao Dai brethren, and my brethren of the myriad other Churches and faiths. Obviously, I'll never again be able to hold my head up in any house of worship other than an Eastern Orthodox temple. What to do???

Scariest part of it all, ... I think you're serious  :o

Many years,

Neil      
Neil/Joe, I had enough interaction with you at CAF to know that your concern was not fairness, but favoring those in schism from your communion over angainst your brethren in the Latin Church.

Oh boy.... ::)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Japheth on December 14, 2011, 02:58:24 PM
From "Communion and Intercommunion"  by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware:

“Eucharistic ecclesiology implies therefore, a threefold unity: Eucharistic unity, that is unity in the one loaf and the one cup of Holy Communion; Dogmatic unity, that is, unity in the one Faith; and Ecclesial unity, that is, unity in the bishop.

In which bishop do the Orthodox have unity?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: orthonorm on December 14, 2011, 03:02:53 PM
From "Communion and Intercommunion"  by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware:

“Eucharistic ecclesiology implies therefore, a threefold unity: Eucharistic unity, that is unity in the one loaf and the one cup of Holy Communion; Dogmatic unity, that is, unity in the one Faith; and Ecclesial unity, that is, unity in the bishop.

In which bishop do the Orthodox have unity?

Is this rhetorical? Oh and that ain't a self referencing rhetorical.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: FormerReformer on December 14, 2011, 03:07:25 PM
From "Communion and Intercommunion"  by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware:

“Eucharistic ecclesiology implies therefore, a threefold unity: Eucharistic unity, that is unity in the one loaf and the one cup of Holy Communion; Dogmatic unity, that is, unity in the one Faith; and Ecclesial unity, that is, unity in the bishop.

In which bishop do the Orthodox have unity?

I can't speak for either Metropolitan Kallistos or Irish Hermit, but my guess (from the context) would be the local bishop for any given diocese, following the Ignatian teaching on the subject.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Japheth on December 14, 2011, 03:16:12 PM
I can't speak for either Metropolitan Kallistos or Irish Hermit, but my guess (from the context) would be the local bishop for any given diocese, following the Ignatian teaching on the subject.

Thanks for the reply. I don't see how that can be a principle of unity for the Church as a whole though. If "unity in the bishop" is, according to Met. Kallistos, a necessary condition of unity, in which bishop do Greeks and Russians, say, have unity?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: orthonorm on December 14, 2011, 03:25:23 PM
I can't speak for either Metropolitan Kallistos or Irish Hermit, but my guess (from the context) would be the local bishop for any given diocese, following the Ignatian teaching on the subject.

Thanks for the reply. I don't see how that can be a principle of unity for the Church as a whole though. If "unity in the bishop" is, according to Met. Kallistos, a necessary condition of unity, in which bishop do Greeks and Russians, say, have unity?

In their Bishops. The unity and complete (catholicity) of the faith is found exactly where Metropolitan Kallistos Ware says it is found.

He says one cup and loaf, do we all use the exact same cup and loaf throughout the world throughout time in a pedestrian sense?


Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: ialmisry on December 14, 2011, 03:37:28 PM
I can't speak for either Metropolitan Kallistos or Irish Hermit, but my guess (from the context) would be the local bishop for any given diocese, following the Ignatian teaching on the subject.

Thanks for the reply. I don't see how that can be a principle of unity for the Church as a whole though. If "unity in the bishop" is, according to Met. Kallistos, a necessary condition of unity, in which bishop do Greeks and Russians, say, have unity?
the ones commemorated at every DL in the Orthodox diptychs of the Catholic Church.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Japheth on December 14, 2011, 03:45:17 PM
He says one cup and loaf, do we all use the exact same cup and loaf throughout the world throughout time in a pedestrian sense?
He's talking about a metaphorical bishop?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: primuspilus on December 14, 2011, 03:54:23 PM
He says one cup and loaf, do we all use the exact same cup and loaf throughout the world throughout time in a pedestrian sense?
He's talking about a metaphorical bishop?
I think its more of the canonical office of bishop.

PP
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: orthonorm on December 14, 2011, 04:23:56 PM
He says one cup and loaf, do we all use the exact same cup and loaf throughout the world throughout time in a pedestrian sense?
He's talking about a metaphorical bishop?

I think you put the rhetorical in reverse.

Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: ialmisry on December 14, 2011, 05:35:38 PM
He says one cup and loaf, do we all use the exact same cup and loaf throughout the world throughout time in a pedestrian sense?
He's talking about a metaphorical bishop?
No, reality.

The Body is broken, but never divided.

The many chalice contain one blood.

The episcopate is one, each one holding the entirety for the whole.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: username! on December 14, 2011, 05:35:55 PM
I nearly ended myself when I read the 2 posts made there , whilst eating my breakfast .

All I know is that I'm not learned enough to be able to sound like an encyclopedia robot.

oh well - I'm devastated :(

Wow! It's so great to hear from you!  Thank you for attending Father Serge's funeral, he will be missed.  You attending the funeral was a great act of Christian charity, being there in spirit for all of us who couldn't be there in person, you represented us by going.  I imagine the journey was not an easy undertaking from Scotland to Ireland, boat trip, train or bus and back.  It is good to hear from you, please post here more often.

Irish Melkite, you were a great mod over there.  I always strove to tell the truth and in the end I got banned for something trivial.  I lasted longer than most.  Luckily we aren't so heavy handed here.  As a matter of fact the Greek Catholic posters that frequent here often add good conversation.  They gently stick up for their beliefs and for that respect is given.  At other forums, not oc.net, they push this orthodox in union with rome attitude and a host of other ill-favoured ideals.  As a former Greek Catholic I can personally tell you that in the real world Greek Catholics go to church, pray and go home.  The major consensus is not like what you would find in the EC section of another forum.  
For most Greek Catholics going to church is going to church.  They know who they are, our families fought hard when some what for Orthodoxy. The actual truth on the ground and not on the internet is that often Greek Catholics (Ruthenians for the sake of typing are Greek CAtholics too, not Byzantine Catholics) feel like second class citizens to the Latin Rite Catholics.  
Most of the lunatics are Roman Catholics who hate the Roman Catholic liturgy but like the Pope but like the Byzantine liturgies.  
They are the ones that over-justify their existence.  They are the ones that try to creep in pre-vatican 2 practices into the Greek CAtholic liturgies and services.  They are the ones on the internet making normal Greek Catholic church going folk look crazy.  They didn't come from families who in former times were forced by law to be Greek Catholic, it isn't part of their family history.  I have never met a cradle Greek Catholic that boasts that they are the true model of unity and being under the pope ended the schism.  For the most part the Greek Catholics online that I deal with are Roman Catholics with a complex.  The exceptions are Anhela, Neil, Deacon Lance, even Elijahmaria.  They know what they believe, they stick up for it and they don't get all offensive against the Orthodox.  They know that if you live outside of the NE,Mid Atlantic and say Chicago that most Orthodox have never met a Greek Catholic and understand that these Orthodox don't know about them and say things that aren't nice because they don't understand, like Jesus said on the coross, "Father forgive them for they do not know"
Truth be told the average Greek Catholic parish has many pros that an Orthodox parish doesn't have.  My parish and the Greek Catholic parish up the road have almost the same services.  Antiphons are different.  The former priest taught Orthodoxy straight up.  Being under the pope was an afterthought.  The people have been Greek Catholic for 400 years.  their connection to rome is merely praying for the pope in litanies.  This is how it is, and they have latinizations, sure.  But they were Orthodox at one point and forced into Rome.  They never concerned themselves with the Vatican too much.  They don't have parish councils that override the priest.  They don't have converts that shun their ethnic traditions, the very traditions that connect home life with the Faith ( ok, to a point they have Roman Catholics that get like this a bit).  
And I'm not going to knock them, yes they are in union with the pope.  It isn't their fault.  Most people don't even think about it, they just go to church.  And frankly they look at the Orthodox church that broke away from their church and think, man, I don't want to go through that parish council in fighting.  The priests are paid a decent salary and receive medical insurance.  You can't say that about every Orthodox parish and priest.
Now I would never go back to being Greek Catholic.  I am under the Patriarch of Constantinople.  I believe Orthodoxy is the fullness of the faith.  It is worth it and everything I go through to be Orthodox.  But I will never condemn someone for being Greek Catholic or staying Greek Catholic.  
Remember where I live, people will go back and forth between Greek CAtholicism and Orthodoxy.  Often marriages are interfaith and if the greek catholic priest makes them mad they'll go to the orthodox church until they decide to park it at the greek catholic church.  Is that right? No.  Am I God and the judge of mankind? No.  Like I said, the former Greek Catholic priest at my family's "Greek Catholic parish which was my parish until I joined my family's Orthodox Church was the kindest man ever.  He was as Orthodox as anyone, even though he was under the pope.  I miss him, he taught the faith, he cared, he was there for his people, he suffered greatly with his diabetes and never complained.  He was truly the father of his flock.  
This stuff never gets talked about online.  It always gets into some us versus them fight.  I am not advocating inter-communion but I am saying that we have learned to love one another and work together.  And Christ said, love one another and forgive, work together, strive for peace and goodwill towards mankind.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: podkarpatska on December 14, 2011, 07:46:04 PM
I nearly ended myself when I read the 2 posts made there , whilst eating my breakfast .

All I know is that I'm not learned enough to be able to sound like an encyclopedia robot.

oh well - I'm devastated :(

Wow! It's so great to hear from you!  Thank you for attending Father Serge's funeral, he will be missed.  You attending the funeral was a great act of Christian charity, being there in spirit for all of us who couldn't be there in person, you represented us by going.  I imagine the journey was not an easy undertaking from Scotland to Ireland, boat trip, train or bus and back.  It is good to hear from you, please post here more often.

Irish Melkite, you were a great mod over there.  I always strove to tell the truth and in the end I got banned for something trivial.  I lasted longer than most.  Luckily we aren't so heavy handed here.  As a matter of fact the Greek Catholic posters that frequent here often add good conversation.  They gently stick up for their beliefs and for that respect is given.  At other forums, not oc.net, they push this orthodox in union with rome attitude and a host of other ill-favoured ideals.  As a former Greek Catholic I can personally tell you that in the real world Greek Catholics go to church, pray and go home.  The major consensus is not like what you would find in the EC section of another forum.  
For most Greek Catholics going to church is going to church.  They know who they are, our families fought hard when some what for Orthodoxy. The actual truth on the ground and not on the internet is that often Greek Catholics (Ruthenians for the sake of typing are Greek CAtholics too, not Byzantine Catholics) feel like second class citizens to the Latin Rite Catholics.  
Most of the lunatics are Roman Catholics who hate the Roman Catholic liturgy but like the Pope but like the Byzantine liturgies.  
They are the ones that over-justify their existence.  They are the ones that try to creep in pre-vatican 2 practices into the Greek CAtholic liturgies and services.  They are the ones on the internet making normal Greek Catholic church going folk look crazy.  They didn't come from families who in former times were forced by law to be Greek Catholic, it isn't part of their family history.  I have never met a cradle Greek Catholic that boasts that they are the true model of unity and being under the pope ended the schism.  For the most part the Greek Catholics online that I deal with are Roman Catholics with a complex.  The exceptions are Anhela, Neil, Deacon Lance, even Elijahmaria.  They know what they believe, they stick up for it and they don't get all offensive against the Orthodox.  They know that if you live outside of the NE,Mid Atlantic and say Chicago that most Orthodox have never met a Greek Catholic and understand that these Orthodox don't know about them and say things that aren't nice because they don't understand, like Jesus said on the coross, "Father forgive them for they do not know"
Truth be told the average Greek Catholic parish has many pros that an Orthodox parish doesn't have.  My parish and the Greek Catholic parish up the road have almost the same services.  Antiphons are different.  The former priest taught Orthodoxy straight up.  Being under the pope was an afterthought.  The people have been Greek Catholic for 400 years.  their connection to rome is merely praying for the pope in litanies.  This is how it is, and they have latinizations, sure.  But they were Orthodox at one point and forced into Rome.  They never concerned themselves with the Vatican too much.  They don't have parish councils that override the priest.  They don't have converts that shun their ethnic traditions, the very traditions that connect home life with the Faith ( ok, to a point they have Roman Catholics that get like this a bit).  
And I'm not going to knock them, yes they are in union with the pope.  It isn't their fault.  Most people don't even think about it, they just go to church.  And frankly they look at the Orthodox church that broke away from their church and think, man, I don't want to go through that parish council in fighting.  The priests are paid a decent salary and receive medical insurance.  You can't say that about every Orthodox parish and priest.
Now I would never go back to being Greek Catholic.  I am under the Patriarch of Constantinople.  I believe Orthodoxy is the fullness of the faith.  It is worth it and everything I go through to be Orthodox.  But I will never condemn someone for being Greek Catholic or staying Greek Catholic.  
Remember where I live, people will go back and forth between Greek CAtholicism and Orthodoxy.  Often marriages are interfaith and if the greek catholic priest makes them mad they'll go to the orthodox church until they decide to park it at the greek catholic church.  Is that right? No.  Am I God and the judge of mankind? No.  Like I said, the former Greek Catholic priest at my family's "Greek Catholic parish which was my parish until I joined my family's Orthodox Church was the kindest man ever.  He was as Orthodox as anyone, even though he was under the pope.  I miss him, he taught the faith, he cared, he was there for his people, he suffered greatly with his diabetes and never complained.  He was truly the father of his flock.  
This stuff never gets talked about online.  It always gets into some us versus them fight.  I am not advocating inter-communion but I am saying that we have learned to love one another and work together.  And Christ said, love one another and forgive, work together, strive for peace and goodwill towards mankind.

You echo my understanding based on my life's experiences and my sentiments. In the old days, the old timers thought of their religion not in terms of being Catholic or as not being Orthodox but merely as following 'our faith' - pardon my Rusyn but i think it is 'nas virjy'. When the schism began, some were passionate, but many simply wanted no trouble and to stay in the church which their labor built - regardless of who owned it - 'our church' or 'nas cerkov'. Today we have been catechised as either Greek Catholics or as Orthodox for seventy five years and the Greek Catholics know they are Greek Catholics and the Orthodox know they are Orthodox. As my baba would say, 'it is what it is.'
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Maria on December 14, 2011, 08:59:51 PM
I nearly ended myself when I read the 2 posts made there , whilst eating my breakfast .

All I know is that I'm not learned enough to be able to sound like an encyclopedia robot.

oh well - I'm devastated :(

Wow! It's so great to hear from you!  Thank you for attending Father Serge's funeral, he will be missed.  You attending the funeral was a great act of Christian charity, being there in spirit for all of us who couldn't be there in person, you represented us by going.  I imagine the journey was not an easy undertaking from Scotland to Ireland, boat trip, train or bus and back.  It is good to hear from you, please post here more often.

Irish Melkite, you were a great mod over there.  I always strove to tell the truth and in the end I got banned for something trivial.  I lasted longer than most.  Luckily we aren't so heavy handed here.  As a matter of fact the Greek Catholic posters that frequent here often add good conversation.  They gently stick up for their beliefs and for that respect is given.  At other forums, not oc.net, they push this orthodox in union with rome attitude and a host of other ill-favoured ideals.  As a former Greek Catholic I can personally tell you that in the real world Greek Catholics go to church, pray and go home.  The major consensus is not like what you would find in the EC section of another forum.  
For most Greek Catholics going to church is going to church.  They know who they are, our families fought hard when some what for Orthodoxy. The actual truth on the ground and not on the internet is that often Greek Catholics (Ruthenians for the sake of typing are Greek CAtholics too, not Byzantine Catholics) feel like second class citizens to the Latin Rite Catholics.  
Most of the lunatics are Roman Catholics who hate the Roman Catholic liturgy but like the Pope but like the Byzantine liturgies.  
They are the ones that over-justify their existence.  They are the ones that try to creep in pre-vatican 2 practices into the Greek CAtholic liturgies and services.  They are the ones on the internet making normal Greek Catholic church going folk look crazy.  They didn't come from families who in former times were forced by law to be Greek Catholic, it isn't part of their family history.  I have never met a cradle Greek Catholic that boasts that they are the true model of unity and being under the pope ended the schism.  For the most part the Greek Catholics online that I deal with are Roman Catholics with a complex.  The exceptions are Anhela, Neil, Deacon Lance, even Elijahmaria.  They know what they believe, they stick up for it and they don't get all offensive against the Orthodox.  They know that if you live outside of the NE,Mid Atlantic and say Chicago that most Orthodox have never met a Greek Catholic and understand that these Orthodox don't know about them and say things that aren't nice because they don't understand, like Jesus said on the coross, "Father forgive them for they do not know"
Truth be told the average Greek Catholic parish has many pros that an Orthodox parish doesn't have.  My parish and the Greek Catholic parish up the road have almost the same services.  Antiphons are different.  The former priest taught Orthodoxy straight up.  Being under the pope was an afterthought.  The people have been Greek Catholic for 400 years.  their connection to rome is merely praying for the pope in litanies.  This is how it is, and they have latinizations, sure.  But they were Orthodox at one point and forced into Rome.  They never concerned themselves with the Vatican too much.  They don't have parish councils that override the priest.  They don't have converts that shun their ethnic traditions, the very traditions that connect home life with the Faith ( ok, to a point they have Roman Catholics that get like this a bit).  
And I'm not going to knock them, yes they are in union with the pope.  It isn't their fault.  Most people don't even think about it, they just go to church.  And frankly they look at the Orthodox church that broke away from their church and think, man, I don't want to go through that parish council in fighting.  The priests are paid a decent salary and receive medical insurance.  You can't say that about every Orthodox parish and priest.
Now I would never go back to being Greek Catholic.  I am under the Patriarch of Constantinople.  I believe Orthodoxy is the fullness of the faith.  It is worth it and everything I go through to be Orthodox.  But I will never condemn someone for being Greek Catholic or staying Greek Catholic.  
Remember where I live, people will go back and forth between Greek CAtholicism and Orthodoxy.  Often marriages are interfaith and if the greek catholic priest makes them mad they'll go to the orthodox church until they decide to park it at the greek catholic church.  Is that right? No.  Am I God and the judge of mankind? No.  Like I said, the former Greek Catholic priest at my family's "Greek Catholic parish which was my parish until I joined my family's Orthodox Church was the kindest man ever.  He was as Orthodox as anyone, even though he was under the pope.  I miss him, he taught the faith, he cared, he was there for his people, he suffered greatly with his diabetes and never complained.  He was truly the father of his flock.  
This stuff never gets talked about online.  It always gets into some us versus them fight.  I am not advocating inter-communion but I am saying that we have learned to love one another and work together.  And Christ said, love one another and forgive, work together, strive for peace and goodwill towards mankind.

Thanks for this post.

Yes, before I converted to Orthodoxy, I was a Melkite Catholic, but my heritage was Maronite. We had a lot of Maronites in the Melkite Church who had been latinized, so the Melkite Priest conducted a Bible Class for them to help them better understand the Orthodox faith. And he used books published by Light and Life, St. Vladimir Seminary Press, and the Melkite publishing company too. His classes were very Orthodox, in fact, even more Orthodox than the Greek Orthodox Priest (in the adjacent suburb) who preached that it was better for a Buddhist to remain a good Buddhist than to try to convert to Orthodoxy (In other words, this Greek Orthodox Priest taught: Why bother converting these non-Christians? Tell them to go to their temple and really learn their faith.)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on December 14, 2011, 09:57:28 PM
Quote from: Papist
Quote from: Irish Melkite
I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren
I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Chris,

You caught me  :-[ .  What was I thinking?  ???

Thank goodness you didn't point out my failure to also say it of my Eastern Catholic, Oriental Catholic &  Orthodox, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian & ACOE, Old Believer, Old Calendrist, Molokan, Dukhobory, and PNCC brethren, to say nothing of my Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant brethren, my Amish, Mennonite, Moravian, and Bruderhoff brethren, my Jewish brethren, my Wiccan brethren, my Cao Dai brethren, and my brethren of the myriad other Churches and faiths. Obviously, I'll never again be able to hold my head up in any house of worship other than an Eastern Orthodox temple. What to do???

Scariest part of it all, ... I think you're serious  :o

Many years,

Neil      
Neil/Joe, I had enough interaction with you at CAF to know that your concern was not fairness, but favoring those in schism from your communion over angainst your brethren in the Latin Church.

Dear Papist, my own interaction with you over at CAF was hardly sterling.  No doubt  chagrined by the converts to Orthodoxy you once described me:

"...one of he most dishonest reporters of Church history, one of the worst anti-Catholic biggots, and one of the rudest trolls ever to grace the Catholic Answers forums!!! "
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Papist on December 14, 2011, 10:18:51 PM
Quote from: Papist
Quote from: Irish Melkite
I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren
I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Chris,

You caught me  :-[ .  What was I thinking?  ???

Thank goodness you didn't point out my failure to also say it of my Eastern Catholic, Oriental Catholic &  Orthodox, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian & ACOE, Old Believer, Old Calendrist, Molokan, Dukhobory, and PNCC brethren, to say nothing of my Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant brethren, my Amish, Mennonite, Moravian, and Bruderhoff brethren, my Jewish brethren, my Wiccan brethren, my Cao Dai brethren, and my brethren of the myriad other Churches and faiths. Obviously, I'll never again be able to hold my head up in any house of worship other than an Eastern Orthodox temple. What to do???

Scariest part of it all, ... I think you're serious  :o

Many years,

Neil      
Neil/Joe, I had enough interaction with you at CAF to know that your concern was not fairness, but favoring those in schism from your communion over angainst your brethren in the Latin Church.

Dear Papist, my own interaction with you over at CAF was hardly sterling.  No doubt  chagrined by the converts to Orthodoxy you once described me:

"...one of he most dishonest reporters of Church history, one of the worst anti-Catholic biggots, and one of the rudest trolls ever to grace the Catholic Answers forums!!! "
Well, as this is not the private forum and I have already been warned once for expressing my honest opinion about another poster, all I will say is that I don't think that your characterizations of Catholic teaching/the Catholic Church are in line with honest discussion and inquiry.
That doesn't mean that I have a low opinion of Eastern Orthodoxy. I think it's quite beautiful, and alluring.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: ialmisry on December 14, 2011, 11:37:41 PM
Quote from: Papist
Quote from: Irish Melkite
I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren
I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Chris,

You caught me  :-[ .  What was I thinking?  ???

Thank goodness you didn't point out my failure to also say it of my Eastern Catholic, Oriental Catholic &  Orthodox, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian & ACOE, Old Believer, Old Calendrist, Molokan, Dukhobory, and PNCC brethren, to say nothing of my Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant brethren, my Amish, Mennonite, Moravian, and Bruderhoff brethren, my Jewish brethren, my Wiccan brethren, my Cao Dai brethren, and my brethren of the myriad other Churches and faiths. Obviously, I'll never again be able to hold my head up in any house of worship other than an Eastern Orthodox temple. What to do???

Scariest part of it all, ... I think you're serious  :o

Many years,

Neil      
Neil/Joe, I had enough interaction with you at CAF to know that your concern was not fairness, but favoring those in schism from your communion over angainst your brethren in the Latin Church.

Dear Papist, my own interaction with you over at CAF was hardly sterling.  No doubt  chagrined by the converts to Orthodoxy you once described me:

"...one of he most dishonest reporters of Church history, one of the worst anti-Catholic biggots, and one of the rudest trolls ever to grace the Catholic Answers forums!!! "
Well, as this is not the private forum and I have already been warned once for expressing my honest opinion about another poster, all I will say is that I don't think that your characterizations of Catholic teaching/the Catholic Church are in line with honest discussion and inquiry.
That doesn't mean that I have a low opinion of Eastern Orthodoxy. I think it's quite beautiful, and alluring.
not to mention true.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: elijahmaria on December 15, 2011, 12:00:59 AM
Quote from: Papist
Quote from: Irish Melkite
I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren
I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Chris,

You caught me  :-[ .  What was I thinking?  ???

Thank goodness you didn't point out my failure to also say it of my Eastern Catholic, Oriental Catholic &  Orthodox, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian & ACOE, Old Believer, Old Calendrist, Molokan, Dukhobory, and PNCC brethren, to say nothing of my Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant brethren, my Amish, Mennonite, Moravian, and Bruderhoff brethren, my Jewish brethren, my Wiccan brethren, my Cao Dai brethren, and my brethren of the myriad other Churches and faiths. Obviously, I'll never again be able to hold my head up in any house of worship other than an Eastern Orthodox temple. What to do???

Scariest part of it all, ... I think you're serious  :o

Many years,

Neil      
Neil/Joe, I had enough interaction with you at CAF to know that your concern was not fairness, but favoring those in schism from your communion over angainst your brethren in the Latin Church.

Dear Papist, my own interaction with you over at CAF was hardly sterling.  No doubt  chagrined by the converts to Orthodoxy you once described me:

"...one of he most dishonest reporters of Church history, one of the worst anti-Catholic biggots, and one of the rudest trolls ever to grace the Catholic Answers forums!!! "

Father you need to get over the idea that we are chagrined by the converts to Orthodoxy.

Any Catholic who converts to a Church that calls us heretics may go with God, and best of all good things to them.  If they remain in the Catholic Church they will simply be a bone of contention and who needs that?  We have plenty of those folks t'stay at home.  I do my very best to direct some folks to Orthodoxy actually.  Now and then you get a rare find in a Catholic convert...but...not always.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on December 15, 2011, 03:20:03 AM
Quote from: Papist
Quote from: Irish Melkite
I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren
I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Chris,

You caught me  :-[ .  What was I thinking?  ???

Thank goodness you didn't point out my failure to also say it of my Eastern Catholic, Oriental Catholic &  Orthodox, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian & ACOE, Old Believer, Old Calendrist, Molokan, Dukhobory, and PNCC brethren, to say nothing of my Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant brethren, my Amish, Mennonite, Moravian, and Bruderhoff brethren, my Jewish brethren, my Wiccan brethren, my Cao Dai brethren, and my brethren of the myriad other Churches and faiths. Obviously, I'll never again be able to hold my head up in any house of worship other than an Eastern Orthodox temple. What to do???

Scariest part of it all, ... I think you're serious  :o

Many years,

Neil      
Neil/Joe, I had enough interaction with you at CAF to know that your concern was not fairness, but favoring those in schism from your communion over angainst your brethren in the Latin Church.

Dear Papist, my own interaction with you over at CAF was hardly sterling.  No doubt  chagrined by the converts to Orthodoxy you once described me:

"...one of he most dishonest reporters of Church history, one of the worst anti-Catholic biggots, and one of the rudest trolls ever to grace the Catholic Answers forums!!! "

Father you need to get over the idea that we are chagrined by the converts to Orthodoxy.
.

I was not speaking of Catholics in general but of the CAF crowd who are unique in their way. One major reason given by the moderatorial staff for banishing the Orthodox members was that their financial backers were very chagrined that their money was supporting a forum where Catholics were able to learn of Orthodoxy and convert.


Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on December 15, 2011, 03:26:42 AM

Any Catholic who converts to a Church that calls us heretics may go with God,

Do Catholics not see us as heretics?   When we allow divorce and a second sacramental marriages is that not heresy in your eyes, given its theological basis?

When we allow contraception is that not heresy in your eyes, both in its theological basis and an abomination in natural law?

Etc., etc......


Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Melkite on December 15, 2011, 04:39:31 AM
Quote from: Papist
Quote from: Irish Melkite
I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren
I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Chris,

You caught me  :-[ .  What was I thinking?  ???

Thank goodness you didn't point out my failure to also say it of my Eastern Catholic, Oriental Catholic &  Orthodox, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian & ACOE, Old Believer, Old Calendrist, Molokan, Dukhobory, and PNCC brethren, to say nothing of my Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant brethren, my Amish, Mennonite, Moravian, and Bruderhoff brethren, my Jewish brethren, my Wiccan brethren, my Cao Dai brethren, and my brethren of the myriad other Churches and faiths. Obviously, I'll never again be able to hold my head up in any house of worship other than an Eastern Orthodox temple. What to do???

Scariest part of it all, ... I think you're serious  :o

Many years,

Neil      

Are you trying to love him into trusting and relaxing or are you putting him in his place here?...I can't quite tell.  I mean they say you are so good and loving so I am sure you'd not be making fun of Papist or doing anything to confirm his worst fears.

M.

Mary,

I've known Chris for several years now, here and at CAF (and, if I remember correctly, he also spent a brief period at ByzCath). What I said was half in jest, and certainly hyperbole, but it also had a large element of truth in it. Someone referred to his comment as being 'proof-texting' and I suppose I could have just agreed with that and let it go. But, truth be told, my response to him reflected fact - my comment (or failure to comment, actually) on any of the other Churches or faiths that I named could just as easily have been characterized as evincing a lack of love or respect for them. But, he didn't choose to do so because seizing on my failure to specifically address my love and respect for Latins supported his conviction that I moderated with a bias toward the EO - or against the Latins, take your pick. Apparently, he wasn't alone in thinking that - the CAF administration seemingly believed it as well. Well, if I was, then I'd have expected to have heard complaints from ECs or others along the same lines - but I never have that I can recollect.

Why? There certainly were ECs (and OCs) who engaged in spirited debate at CAF with those of the Orthodox faith - including myself at times in my Irish Melkite persona. The difference was the nature of the debates, how they were conducted, and how they ended - generally all very differently from what happened when (some) Latins engaged in the fray; and, notably, those self-same Latins were as often in conflict with the EC posters as with the EO posters, not infrequently with both at the same time.

It was not a bashful crowd posting there (think Isa, Bob/Orthodoc, stashko, and Father Ambrose) and more than one Eastern Orthodox poster was formally suspended for a period or informally asked to take a brief vacation from posting. But, you know what? The same was true of Eastern Catholic posters. As, indeed, it was of Latin posters. Do I think that anyone was happy when that happened to them? I'm old, Mary, but not senile. Of course, they were not but, in the comments made to the old CAF thread here, several folk acknowledged having had mandated time out but expressed the opinion that it was justified.

I like to believe that was what they really thought - that it wasn't just said as a 'feel-good', after-the-fact, reaction to the much more hard-line style of moderation that followed my termination. No, I can't know that with certainty but I can know that we not infrequently discussed, via PM, what was and was not appropriate posting or style. And, if I was harder on the Latins, it was because they made it harder on themselves by telling us - Eastern Christians, Catholic and Orthodox, what we must believe, what our theology should look like, how our spirituality could be best evidenced. It certainly would not have flown had Easterners invaded the Latin-oriented fora there and done likewise.

I was a Latin Catholic for the first 20 years of my life. Although I transferred my canonical enrollment to the Melkites in the immediate aftermath of VII, I did so neither because of VII nor because of any disdain for the Church in which I was raised. In fact, although I shudder at some of what has passed for liturgics in the past few decades, I still believe that the Latin Church has the imperfect fullness of the faith (as I believe also with regard to the Eastern and Oriental Catholic and Orthodox Churches - each being diminished in its exercise of that faith by its separation from the other Apostolic Churches, as I already explained earlier).

My issue is not with Latins, it is with Latin triumphalism as is commonly experienced here and elsewhere on the net, much more so than it is in real life. Many of the comments by Matt and David as to the differences between real life and life on the net are as equally applicable to the average Latin Catholic in his/her relationship with Eastern Catholics (if they are even aware of us) as they are to the relations between the Carpatho-Rusyns of the Ruthenian Metropolia and those of the Carpatho-Russian Archdiocese, or the UGCC and the UOC, or the Melkites and the Antiochians.

Real life is supporting the functions of one another's parishes because they share an ecclesio-cultural history. Real life is priests from two Churches saying prayers at the wake of a deceased person whose family is split between the two. Real life is offering the use of vestments, liturgical accoutrements, and even of one's temple to the counterpart worship community whose temple burned to the ground. Real life is the prayerful and tearful words of a hierarch expressed on the occasion of the repose of his counterpart who shepherded the 'other' Church. Real life is acknowledging that the sacred text published under the auspices of the 'other' Church is the better translation or the more spiritually edifying.

Real life is an EO presbyter readily agreeing to allow use of photos of his temple to illustrate an 'historical' entry in the EC directory because it was once an EC parish and offering to take photos of any of the EC temples in his area that are lacking same in their directory entries. Real life is Matt thanking Anhelyna for representing him and others who could not be in attendance at the funeral liturgy of an EC priest. Real life is praying for one another's health, praying that the memory of one another's loved ones be eternal, praying the blessing of a priest of the 'other' Church to whom one is speaking.

Real life is not belittling one another's belief or spirituality or praxis. Thanks be to God, those are generally only the virtual life of religious internet fora.   

Many years,

Neil

   
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: JR on December 15, 2011, 05:47:07 AM

Any Catholic who converts to a Church that calls us heretics may go with God,

Do Catholics not see us as heretics?   When we allow divorce and a second sacramental marriages is that not heresy in your eyes, given its theological basis?

When we allow contraception is that not heresy in your eyes, both in its theological basis and an abomination in natural law?

Etc., etc......




You discredit and condemn us with such uncharitable thoughts !

For the most part I have deep respect for my learn'd Eastern brethren and there faith. I would never say such things as you have mentioned and I would never call anybody a heretic ! that is for God to judge, and God only !

Our conversations should always be with charity and understanding, to explain our stance and defend our faith with the virtue of the Apostles themselves, but never get personal in our words or thoughts.

I am a Latin Rite Catholic, I love Orthodoxy and the Byzantine Rite.

That probably sounds contradictory to you. but  if you take into consideration that neither Orthodoxy nor Byzantine exists where I had lived most of my life then you would understand.

We had a choice of Catholic, protestant or Methodist. there was not even a mosque.

My exposure to Eastern religion / faith was when I moved to Greece a while ago now.

I just thought you should know that not everybody has a choice of what church they belong to, so Latin Rite should not be called Heretic out of charity for the ones that don't now about the East, for there are many that don't.

Shalom



Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on December 15, 2011, 06:33:57 AM

Any Catholic who converts to a Church that calls us heretics may go with God,

Do Catholics not see us as heretics?   When we allow divorce and a second sacramental marriages is that not heresy in your eyes, given its theological basis?

When we allow contraception is that not heresy in your eyes, both in its theological basis and an abomination in natural law?

Etc., etc......




You discredit and condemn us with such uncharitable thoughts
!


I rather wish that one of our Catholic sisters here would listen to your words.  You see, I wrote what I did because she has said, several times, that there can no cooperation betwen us (Rome and Russia) in fighting secularisation and moral degeneration because of these two moral issues, divorce/remarriage and contraception.


Quote

For the most part I have deep respect for my learn'd Eastern brethren and there faith. I would never say such things as you have mentioned and I would never call anybody a heretic ! that is for God to judge, and God only !

Our conversations should always be with charity and understanding, to explain our stance and defend our faith with the virtue of the Apostles themselves, but never get personal in our words or thoughts.

I am a Latin Rite Catholic, I love Orthodoxy and the Byzantine Rite.

That probably sounds contradictory to you. but  if you take into consideration that neither Orthodoxy nor Byzantine exists where I had lived most of my life then you would understand.

We had a choice of Catholic, protestant or Methodist. there was not even a mosque.

My exposure to Eastern religion / faith was when I moved to Greece a while ago now.

I just thought you should know that not everybody has a choice of what church they belong to, so Latin Rite should not be called Heretic out of charity for the ones that don't now about the East, for there are many that don't.

Shalom




Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on December 15, 2011, 06:38:07 AM
I am a Latin Rite Catholic, I love Orthodoxy and the Byzantine Rite.

That probably sounds contradictory to you.

It doesn't sound contradictory and in fact I have lots of Catholic friends who say just the same thing. :)

Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: JR on December 15, 2011, 06:40:14 AM
I am a Latin Rite Catholic, I love Orthodoxy and the Byzantine Rite.

That probably sounds contradictory to you.

It doesn't sound contradictory and in fact I have lots of Catholic friends who say just the same thing. :)



Nice to know  :)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Theophilos78 on December 15, 2011, 09:17:01 AM
What is this thread about? What happened at the CAF? The first forum I started to write posts at. Also the first forum I was kicked out of due to my altercation with a follower of Ahmadiyya...  ;D
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Melkite on December 15, 2011, 09:34:21 AM
What is this thread about?

That's the $64.000 question if ever there was one :D

Quote
What happened at the CAF?

Read the opening post - and if you aren't familiar with the history of the old Eastern Christianity forum there - and the purging of its Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic members a few years back - you may want to set aside a day or two and read the stickied thread on the topic at the top of this forum. (I'd explain it, but there's only so many hours in the week :D )

Many years,

Neil
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on December 15, 2011, 10:54:31 AM
Read the opening post - and if you aren't familiar with the history of the old Eastern Christianity forum there - and the purging of its Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic members a few years back - you may want to set aside a day or two and read the stickied thread on the topic at the top of this forum.

Here is the thread on this Forum about the Great CAF Purge of 2007 - one by one we bedraggled refugees from CAF scrambled aboard the OC.net lifeboat and looked around for old friends and mates who had survived the Purge.  Some were missing arms, others were eyeless, some were legless.....(http://www.emotihost.com/ver1/crying/12.gif)

"catholic answers forum bars orthodox dicussion"

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13287.0.html

Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: podkarpatska on December 15, 2011, 11:18:34 AM
I have been privileged over the course of my life to have known many wonderful, kind, knowledgeable and honest priests, bishops, monks and lay people - good Christians - Orthodox and Catholic alike - who labor tirelessly in the vineyards of our Lord's 'real world'. Seldom have I read words as heartfelt, honest and true as those expressed by Neil this morning in his lengthy post. Thank you for sharing them with us.

Frankly, we get so worked up about our differences and in name-calling and we carry the hurt caused by the words and actions of others so close to our hearts that we often lose sight of what our God calls upon us to do in life. The words of our Lord and Savior come to mind: "And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other." Mark 3:5, KJV.


S'bohom.

David
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Marc1152 on December 15, 2011, 11:36:35 AM
Quote from: Papist
Quote from: Irish Melkite
I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren
I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Chris,

You caught me  :-[ .  What was I thinking?  ???

Thank goodness you didn't point out my failure to also say it of my Eastern Catholic, Oriental Catholic &  Orthodox, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian & ACOE, Old Believer, Old Calendrist, Molokan, Dukhobory, and PNCC brethren, to say nothing of my Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant brethren, my Amish, Mennonite, Moravian, and Bruderhoff brethren, my Jewish brethren, my Wiccan brethren, my Cao Dai brethren, and my brethren of the myriad other Churches and faiths. Obviously, I'll never again be able to hold my head up in any house of worship other than an Eastern Orthodox temple. What to do???

Scariest part of it all, ... I think you're serious  :o

Many years,

Neil      
Neil/Joe, I had enough interaction with you at CAF to know that your concern was not fairness, but favoring those in schism from your communion over angainst your brethren in the Latin Church.

Dear Papist, my own interaction with you over at CAF was hardly sterling.  No doubt  chagrined by the converts to Orthodoxy you once described me:

"...one of he most dishonest reporters of Church history, one of the worst anti-Catholic biggots, and one of the rudest trolls ever to grace the Catholic Answers forums!!! "

Father you need to get over the idea that we are chagrined by the converts to Orthodoxy.

Any Catholic who converts to a Church that calls us heretics may go with God, and best of all good things to them.  If they remain in the Catholic Church they will simply be a bone of contention and who needs that?  We have plenty of those folks t'stay at home.  I do my very best to direct some folks to Orthodoxy actually.  Now and then you get a rare find in a Catholic convert...but...not always.

Is it really true that most Orthodox Consider the RCC as 'Heretics"..Aren't you exaggerating just a bit? In schism from the Church certainly and obviously and there are a few newly minted doga's that in polite company we may call "Innovative" but I don't thing we consider the RCC heretics in the same manner as we apply the term to Mormons and such the like.

If any one of us were asked to advise a person who was choosing between Mormonism and the RCC I dont think there would be a moments hesitation to choose for a conservative RCC Parish ( no Liturgical Dancing, or talking in tongues etc.)   :) 
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Marc1152 on December 15, 2011, 11:40:18 AM
Read the opening post - and if you aren't familiar with the history of the old Eastern Christianity forum there - and the purging of its Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic members a few years back - you may want to set aside a day or two and read the stickied thread on the topic at the top of this forum.

Here is the thread on this Forum about the Great CAF Purge of 2007 - one by one we bedraggled refugees from CAF scrambled aboard the OC.net lifeboat and looked around for old friends and mates who had survived the Purge.  Some were missing arms, others were eyeless, some were legless.....(http://www.emotihost.com/ver1/crying/12.gif)

"catholic answers forum bars orthodox dicussion"

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13287.0.html



Here is the You Tube of it: 

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZhl6QswlsQ&feature=relmfu
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Marc1152 on December 15, 2011, 11:46:15 AM
I am a Latin Rite Catholic, I love Orthodoxy and the Byzantine Rite.

That probably sounds contradictory to you.

It doesn't sound contradictory and in fact I have lots of Catholic friends who say just the same thing. :)



One part of my wife's family is RCC. They show up for Baptism's etc en-mass at our little Rocor Mission Church and sure do fill the place up. They always LOVE It.. My standard question to them is "Catholic enough for ya?,, And they say "Oh yes yes yes.. This is the real deal.."

I think people just want something that challenges them a bit without short cuts or reconfigured to the lowest common denominator.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: elijahmaria on December 15, 2011, 05:23:15 PM

Any Catholic who converts to a Church that calls us heretics may go with God,

Do Catholics not see us as heretics?   When we allow divorce and a second sacramental marriages is that not heresy in your eyes, given its theological basis?

When we allow contraception is that not heresy in your eyes, both in its theological basis and an abomination in natural law?

Etc., etc......




You discredit and condemn us with such uncharitable thoughts
!


I rather wish that one of our Catholic sisters here would listen to your words.  You see, I wrote what I did because she has said, several times, that there can no cooperation betwen us (Rome and Russia) in fighting secularisation and moral degeneration because of these two moral issues, divorce/remarriage and contraception.


Once again you distort what I say here, and anywhere else I have chance to say it.

I do not say that Rome and Russia cannot share a moral law because the ROC is heretical.

I say that Rome and Russia cannot share a moral law when Orthodoxy declares, formally and informally, that the Catholic faith is heretical.

It is that so-called heretical faith from which springs Catholic moral teaching.  They cannot be separated.  It is a fundamental truth of Systematic Moral Theology 101.

So don't tell but the truth on me, Father...please.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Jack Bauer on December 15, 2011, 06:41:12 PM
Always was angry for the CAF issue.  Though I still go there I've since realize just how uncharitable the site moderators can users can be.  Some are not so bad, but there are definitely those that love to hate.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on December 15, 2011, 06:57:21 PM

I say that Rome and Russia cannot share a moral law when Orthodoxy declares, formally and informally, that the Catholic faith is heretical.

I just find your words so flawed.  Even the simplest woman on the street can see that we share a great amount of moral law, and that commonality is not destroyed by the small amount of your teaching which is flawed and heretical in our eyes.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Papist on December 15, 2011, 06:58:21 PM
Quote from: Papist
Quote from: Irish Melkite
I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren
I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Chris,

You caught me  :-[ .  What was I thinking?  ???

Thank goodness you didn't point out my failure to also say it of my Eastern Catholic, Oriental Catholic &  Orthodox, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian & ACOE, Old Believer, Old Calendrist, Molokan, Dukhobory, and PNCC brethren, to say nothing of my Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant brethren, my Amish, Mennonite, Moravian, and Bruderhoff brethren, my Jewish brethren, my Wiccan brethren, my Cao Dai brethren, and my brethren of the myriad other Churches and faiths. Obviously, I'll never again be able to hold my head up in any house of worship other than an Eastern Orthodox temple. What to do???

Scariest part of it all, ... I think you're serious  :o

Many years,

Neil      
Neil/Joe, I had enough interaction with you at CAF to know that your concern was not fairness, but favoring those in schism from your communion over angainst your brethren in the Latin Church.

Dear Papist, my own interaction with you over at CAF was hardly sterling.  No doubt  chagrined by the converts to Orthodoxy you once described me:

"...one of he most dishonest reporters of Church history, one of the worst anti-Catholic biggots, and one of the rudest trolls ever to grace the Catholic Answers forums!!! "
Well, as this is not the private forum and I have already been warned once for expressing my honest opinion about another poster, all I will say is that I don't think that your characterizations of Catholic teaching/the Catholic Church are in line with honest discussion and inquiry.
That doesn't mean that I have a low opinion of Eastern Orthodoxy. I think it's quite beautiful, and alluring.
not to mention true.
Mostly... mostly.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: username! on December 15, 2011, 07:53:14 PM
I agree with Neil, it sounds like the financial backers of "that site" didn't want Catholics to learn about Orthodoxy and convert.  While I was transitioning from Greek Catholicism to Orthodoxy I spent time at "that site."  Some of the posters that post here gave me solid advice and helped me along my way.  A poster here that was a mod as well invited me to her church and I never looked back. It was an easy transition.  I've been posting with some of our posters for the better part of 6 years. 
The latin triumphalism that is so profound on 'that other site' is not nice.  And as the moderator here I don't tolerate Orthodox triumphalism, not latin triumphalism.  I like sharing of knowledge and I don't like censoring but I won't put up with people playing the you're a heretic game or my God is better than yours.  People have their reasons for being Catholic.  People have their reasons for being Orthodox.  What is good is decent NON BICKERING discussion about Orthodox-Catholic topics here.

Moving forward I would like to see more topics in this forum, orthodox-catholic forum.  I would like to see more of the Greek Catholics post here that used to post at "that other site."  I would like to see some of the byzcath crowd come here as well  Comparing how Catholics and Orthodox celebrate feasts would be neat.  Discussing say catholic monasticism versus Orthodox monasticism would be neat.  Ask questions to better understand each other.
Remember a lot of Orthodox are ex-protestants who weren't too Catholic friendly to begin with.  Perhaps to help better understand Orthodoxy they should learn something about Catholicism. 
Just some food for thought.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: ialmisry on December 15, 2011, 08:37:52 PM
Quote from: Papist
Quote from: Irish Melkite
I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren
I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Chris,

You caught me  :-[ .  What was I thinking?  ???

Thank goodness you didn't point out my failure to also say it of my Eastern Catholic, Oriental Catholic &  Orthodox, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian & ACOE, Old Believer, Old Calendrist, Molokan, Dukhobory, and PNCC brethren, to say nothing of my Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant brethren, my Amish, Mennonite, Moravian, and Bruderhoff brethren, my Jewish brethren, my Wiccan brethren, my Cao Dai brethren, and my brethren of the myriad other Churches and faiths. Obviously, I'll never again be able to hold my head up in any house of worship other than an Eastern Orthodox temple. What to do???

Scariest part of it all, ... I think you're serious  :o

Many years,

Neil      
Neil/Joe, I had enough interaction with you at CAF to know that your concern was not fairness, but favoring those in schism from your communion over angainst your brethren in the Latin Church.

Dear Papist, my own interaction with you over at CAF was hardly sterling.  No doubt  chagrined by the converts to Orthodoxy you once described me:

"...one of he most dishonest reporters of Church history, one of the worst anti-Catholic biggots, and one of the rudest trolls ever to grace the Catholic Answers forums!!! "

Father you need to get over the idea that we are chagrined by the converts to Orthodoxy.

Any Catholic who converts to a Church that calls us heretics may go with God, and best of all good things to them.  If they remain in the Catholic Church they will simply be a bone of contention and who needs that?  We have plenty of those folks t'stay at home.  I do my very best to direct some folks to Orthodoxy actually.  Now and then you get a rare find in a Catholic convert...but...not always.

Is it really true that most Orthodox Consider the RCC as 'Heretics"..Aren't you exaggerating just a bit? In schism from the Church certainly and obviously and there are a few newly minted doga's that in polite company we may call "Innovative" but I don't thing we consider the RCC heretics in the same manner as we apply the term to Mormons and such the like.

If any one of us were asked to advise a person who was choosing between Mormonism and the RCC I dont think there would be a moments hesitation to choose for a conservative RCC Parish ( no Liturgical Dancing, or talking in tongues etc.)   :) 
Hell, I might be tempted to recommend even one of the Vatican's more liberal parishes in that situation.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Maria on December 15, 2011, 08:51:38 PM
Quote from: Papist
Quote from: Irish Melkite
I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren
I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Chris,

You caught me  :-[ .  What was I thinking?  ???

Thank goodness you didn't point out my failure to also say it of my Eastern Catholic, Oriental Catholic &  Orthodox, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian & ACOE, Old Believer, Old Calendrist, Molokan, Dukhobory, and PNCC brethren, to say nothing of my Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant brethren, my Amish, Mennonite, Moravian, and Bruderhoff brethren, my Jewish brethren, my Wiccan brethren, my Cao Dai brethren, and my brethren of the myriad other Churches and faiths. Obviously, I'll never again be able to hold my head up in any house of worship other than an Eastern Orthodox temple. What to do???

Scariest part of it all, ... I think you're serious  :o

Many years,

Neil      
Neil/Joe, I had enough interaction with you at CAF to know that your concern was not fairness, but favoring those in schism from your communion over angainst your brethren in the Latin Church.

Dear Papist, my own interaction with you over at CAF was hardly sterling.  No doubt  chagrined by the converts to Orthodoxy you once described me:

"...one of he most dishonest reporters of Church history, one of the worst anti-Catholic biggots, and one of the rudest trolls ever to grace the Catholic Answers forums!!! "

Father you need to get over the idea that we are chagrined by the converts to Orthodoxy.

Any Catholic who converts to a Church that calls us heretics may go with God, and best of all good things to them.  If they remain in the Catholic Church they will simply be a bone of contention and who needs that?  We have plenty of those folks t'stay at home.  I do my very best to direct some folks to Orthodoxy actually.  Now and then you get a rare find in a Catholic convert...but...not always.

Is it really true that most Orthodox Consider the RCC as 'Heretics"..Aren't you exaggerating just a bit? In schism from the Church certainly and obviously and there are a few newly minted doga's that in polite company we may call "Innovative" but I don't thing we consider the RCC heretics in the same manner as we apply the term to Mormons and such the like.

If any one of us were asked to advise a person who was choosing between Mormonism and the RCC I dont think there would be a moments hesitation to choose for a conservative RCC Parish ( no Liturgical Dancing, or talking in tongues etc.)   :)  

After reading the thread about Assisi and the pope being blessed by a voodo witch doctor, I would have to agree with you that if a person were trying to choose between Mormonism and Roman Catholicism, I would not hesitate to recommend a more traditional Catholic Church, preferably the SSPX. However, I would also give them a book about Holy Orthodoxy, and encourage them to look East toward Greece.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Maria on December 15, 2011, 08:59:37 PM
I agree with Neil, it sounds like the financial backers of "that site" didn't want Catholics to learn about Orthodoxy and convert.  While I was transitioning from Greek Catholicism to Orthodoxy I spent time at "that site."  Some of the posters that post here gave me solid advice and helped me along my way.  A poster here that was a mod as well invited me to her church and I never looked back. It was an easy transition.  I've been posting with some of our posters for the better part of 6 years. 
The latin triumphalism that is so profound on 'that other site' is not nice.  And as the moderator here I don't tolerate Orthodox triumphalism, not latin triumphalism.  I like sharing of knowledge and I don't like censoring but I won't put up with people playing the you're a heretic game or my God is better than yours.  People have their reasons for being Catholic.  People have their reasons for being Orthodox.  What is good is decent NON BICKERING discussion about Orthodox-Catholic topics here.

Moving forward I would like to see more topics in this forum, orthodox-catholic forum.  I would like to see more of the Greek Catholics post here that used to post at "that other site."  I would like to see some of the byzcath crowd come here as well  Comparing how Catholics and Orthodox celebrate feasts would be neat.  Discussing say catholic monasticism versus Orthodox monasticism would be neat.  Ask questions to better understand each other.
Remember a lot of Orthodox are ex-protestants who weren't too Catholic friendly to begin with.  Perhaps to help better understand Orthodoxy they should learn something about Catholicism. 
Just some food for thought.

Thank you, Father, for this reminder.

Pride, arrogance, and triumphalism are not qualities that should be promoted on any Christian site.

I have known some Catholics who were very saintly, and I have met many Orthodoxy whom I consider to be living saints.
It was the devout Eastern Catholics and their love of Orthodoxy that lead me to Orthodoxy.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: ialmisry on December 15, 2011, 09:22:06 PM

Any Catholic who converts to a Church that calls us heretics may go with God,

Do Catholics not see us as heretics?   When we allow divorce and a second sacramental marriages is that not heresy in your eyes, given its theological basis?

When we allow contraception is that not heresy in your eyes, both in its theological basis and an abomination in natural law?

Etc., etc......




You discredit and condemn us with such uncharitable thoughts
!


I rather wish that one of our Catholic sisters here would listen to your words.  You see, I wrote what I did because she has said, several times, that there can no cooperation betwen us (Rome and Russia) in fighting secularisation and moral degeneration because of these two moral issues, divorce/remarriage and contraception.


Once again you distort what I say here, and anywhere else I have chance to say it.

I do not say that Rome and Russia cannot share a moral law because the ROC is heretical.

I say that Rome and Russia cannot share a moral law when Orthodoxy declares, formally and informally, that the Catholic faith is heretical.

It is that so-called heretical faith from which springs Catholic moral teaching.  They cannot be separated.  It is a fundamental truth of Systematic Moral Theology 101.

So don't tell but the truth on me, Father...please.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28877.0.html
Quote
Irish HermitPatriarch: Pope Is Like-Minded on Morals, Values
Says Both Churches Can Work Together on Many Issues

http://www.zenit.org/article-29930?l=english

MOSCOW, JULY 19, 2010 (Zenit.org).- Orthodox Patriarch Kirill of Moscow and All Russias says he and Benedict XVI often see eye-to-eye on many issues, especially with regard to those of a moral nature.
 
The Patriarch said this in statements on the occasion of his trip to Ukraine, reported today by the Russian agency Interfax.
 
"I must say that the position of the present Pope, Benedict XVI, leaves room for optimism," he said in an interview on Ukrainian television channels, on the eve of his visit to that country.

To continue reading...
http://www.zenit.org/article-29930?l=english

Quote
Quote
Quote from: Papist on July 20, 2010, 10:25:42 AM
Cool.

How is it cool when Orthodoxy allows both artificial birth control and abortion...depending?

How is that cool?

M.

Quote
The point in question here is whether or not Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church follow the same formal teaching, de facto and de jure.  My own observations are "Not yet."  And more to the point I do not believe that they would want to give up that little escape clause built into sexual teaching.

I say close the gap and let the faithful confess their transgressions.  That is the, what was it called?...Neanderthal.... position of the Pope.  Not at all like-minded with the Patriarch, as far as I can see from here.  Apparently that Patriarchs are more modern in their thinking...not at all Neanderthal!!

Mary

Quote
I think the point I am making and I'll use Father Harakas's book to make it is that, formally, Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church do not yet teach the same message on sexual morality.

Mary

Quote
That is quite right.  The Catholic Church does not teach divorce either and does not recognize so-called second marriages.   One wonders, superficially, what the Patriarch is thinking...eh?   I expect that there's more going on there than meets the eye, but I do think the message needs to be made more clear.

I was about to come back and say that I am not speaking in terms of tit-for-tat but am saying that both Churches will have to find some way to speak with one voice concerning their various approaches to sexual morality and marriage in particular, but of course there's no room for that is there.

Mary

Quote
So again, I challenge the Patriarch when he says that he and the Pope are like-minded on moral issues.

I think there's still a good bit of work to be done before that condition pertains in truth.

Mary

Quote
I also think that there's more work to be done before Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church can claim a mutual moral ground.  Now if that is a crime them I will stand before God and country and defend the truth of it.

Mary E. Lanser

Quote
Quote
PeterTheAleut on August 04, 2010, 08:24:51 PM

But you have to admit that you're being dishonest by alleging that Fr. Ambrose advocates sexual license and by withholding information that refutes your allegation.  As I learned honesty, not telling the whole truth is often as bad as telling a lie.



No. I don't need to admit that at all.  

We are speaking in the context of an Orthodox Patriarch saying that he and the Catholic Pope are of like mind on moral issues.

In the context of ALL methods of birth control in Catholic marriages, for a priest to encourage a couple to go ahead and use barrier methods because abstinence is too difficult is an example of sexual license.  Perhaps you simply cannot follow my line of reasoning because you do not have a Catholic phronema.

Since Father Ambrose, from New Zealand, is very clear that his bishop supports his actions and so thereby his Patriarch.  Since that is the case my conclusions stand.

There is no moral like mindedness between the Patriarch in question and the Pope when it comes to artificial birth control.  So the entire assertion can be thrown out till there is a closer and more clearly stated accord.

Mary

Quote
Barrier method birth control, if what you say is correct.   That is what fits into my own assertion concerning the Patriarch's somewhat premature announcement about the like-mindedness of the Catholic Pope on moral issues.

M.

Quote
Until the Catholic and Orthodox confessions speak as one on issues of sexual morality, you can go ahead and laugh your head off.  And we will both eventually see who laughs best....

Mary
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,27710.msg436904.html#msg436904
Doctrinal Theology is not separated from Moral Theology
Quote
ElijahmariaHow can this article be true if the Catholic Church teaches so many heresies?  How can we agree on any moral teaching if our doctrinal teachings are so far apart?  

Orthodoxy could never agree to the Catholic stance on abortion, contraception or divorce and they are greatest threats to moral stability in the world....

So what is this showboating about?

No wonder they are calling Archbishop Hilarion a heretic!!

++++++++++++++++++++++++


Catholics and Russian Orthodox Seen as Allies
Moscow Patriarchate Sponsors 2-Day Event in Vatican

By Carmen Elena Villa
 
ROME, MAY 19, 2010 (Zenit.org).- Catholics and Orthodox are growing in the awareness they are not competitors but allies, says an official from the Moscow Patriarchate.

Archbishop Hilarion Alfeyev of Volokolamsk, chairman of the Department of External Affairs of the Moscow Patriarchate, affirmed this today at a press conference in the headquarters of the Pontifical Council for Culture.

That council, along with the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity and the Moscow Patriarchate, is sponsoring a Day of Russian Culture and Spirituality in the Vatican, being held today and Thursday.

Archbishop Hilarion, himself an accomplished music composer, noted how culture, art and music have become indispensable in Catholic-Orthodox dialogue.

Through this language, "we can say what we cannot express with diplomatic or political words," he contended. "It is possible to live this dialogue at several levels, also with simple persons."

As part of the cultural event, there will be a concert Thursday in honor of Benedict XVI, sponsored by the patriarch of Moscow and All Russia, His Holiness Kirill I.

Past rivalries

Archbishop Hilarion went on to note that in both the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church "the awareness has grown of not being in competition, but of being allies." The rivalries of the past, he added, "must stay there, in the past."

He noted that cultural changes, particularly the "de-Christianization of our countries," is calling for "greater collaboration."

Other cultural changes call increasingly for an open dialogue between Catholics and Orthodox, the prelate said: "Today there are many mixed marriages. We often find an Orthodox person next to a Catholic."
 
"The whole of Russian culture has been founded on a Christian world," recalled the archbishop."When we were banned from all activities, culture enabled us to go forward."

He also reflected how Russian spiritual music is much heard in Catholic liturgy, not to mention how many persons read Dostoyevsky and other authors, he noted.
 
Friends of Benedict

Archbishop Hilarion affirmed that for many Orthodox, "the election of Benedict XVI was received positively," especially because of "his position on moral questions."

"There is a commitment [among the Orthodox] to observe and promote traditional values," he said.
 
In regard to the theological dialogue between Orthodox and Catholics, the archbishop projected that it will last for many years.
 
"Each stage of the dialogue ends with a text where Catholics and Orthodox say something together," he explained. "What is important is that these texts are received not only by theologians but also by the faithful."
 
Surmounting differences
 
For his part, Cardinal Walter Kasper, president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, said the cultural event can become an opportunity "to deepen our ecumenical relations themselves in a new dimension."
 
"The sad age-old separation between East and West was not only caused by theological differences or political conflicts, but especially by distance and a cultural alienation," he explained.

This distance must be overcome, the cardinal affirmed, not in the sense of a leveling "but in the sense of a mutual enrichment, a communion without fusion or absorption."
 
Such a communion, he proposed, can be "a strong common testimony of the richness of European culture and its Christian roots -- today, lamentably forgotten by many and even denied and rejected."

Quote
Apparently Orthodoxy believes that doctrinal theology and moral theology are unrelated.  That is an interesting development in my understanding of things, so I will be giving it some thought for the future.

Nonetheless I am still not convinced that there's much if anything to be gained by pretending to share morality when Orthodox formally allows for abortion and contraception and divorce and the Catholic Church teaches formally and emphatically against ALL abortion, all forms of contraception and divorce.

I am aware there are pastoral considerations in both confessions but the formal teachings are widely divergent.  

So I am not sure what Metropolitan Hilarion is saying in that article that I posted before the thread got derailed...

M.

Quote
It seems to me that what is being suggested is a collaboration to work to save the collective souls of Christian Europe...not just hoppin' on a committee somewhere to lobby for more or less contraception or fewer abortions.

I don't see that as possible at all.  

I will modify that to say I don't see that as at all possible, given the kinds of attitudes I see on Internet venues that are open to Catholic-Orthodox dialogue.  To much vitriol and disparagement, mockery and idle meanness to have any good effect in any kind of evangelical project of any kind.

Mary

Quote
It is all empty words without communion.  Very sad to me.  Given the range of teachings, attitudes and aspects visible in Orthodoxy directed at the papal Church, and the sheer volume of doctrinal detritus,  I think it is an effort that is doomed to make things worse.  I am not in favor of evangelizing with yourself for example who spends so much energy on telling Catholics how horrid is their Church.

Mary
Quote
Dear Mary,

As I mentioned on another thread, I think your apprehension of Catholicism as you would like it to be and Catholicism as the Pope sees it are not the same.  

We see that the Pope wishes to work with the Orthodox on the re-evangelisation of Europe and plainly he does not see our differences in moral teaching as preventing this co-operative evangelisation.

I have created a new thread for this topic at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,27801.new.html

and here is a sampling to whet your appetite......


++++++++++++++++++++++++

A Holy Alliance between Rome and Moscow Is Born

The common objective: the "new evangelization" of Europe. A delegation of the Russian Orthodox Church visits the Vatican, which publishes an anthology of the patriarch's writings. A meeting between Kirill and Benedict XVI keeps getting closer




ROME, May 24, 2010 – Benedict XVI will soon create a new "pontifical council" expressly dedicated to the "new evangelization." Not for mission countries where the congregation "de propaganda fide" is already at work. But for the countries of ancient Christian tradition that are today in danger of losing the faith.

Pope Joseph Ratzinger wants to link his pontificate to this initiative. And this was the main topic that he discussed one morning in the spring of 2009, at Castel Gandolfo, with four prominent cardinals he had called for consultation: Camillo Ruini, Angelo Bagnasco, Christoph Schönborn, and Angelo Scola, the last being the most resolute in promoting the institution of the new office.

Meanwhile, one great ally has already united with the pope from outside of the Catholic Church, in this enterprise of a new evangelization.

This great ally is the Russian Orthodox Church.

Extract from
http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1343399?eng=y
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: biro on December 15, 2011, 09:25:40 PM
tl;dr
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Maria on December 15, 2011, 09:35:12 PM
tl;dr

What does tl;dr mean?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on December 15, 2011, 09:36:29 PM
"Too long, didn't read", I think? I'm generally awful at internet acronyms, but I think I've seen that one enough in reply to my own posts... :D
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Maria on December 15, 2011, 09:42:06 PM
"Too long, didn't read", I think? I'm generally awful at internet acronyms, but I think I've seen that one enough in reply to my own posts... :D

Thanks for your prompt response.

I did skim that post, but it did not make much sense.
I certainly could see why the comment "tl;dr" was made.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Marc1152 on December 15, 2011, 10:31:32 PM
Let's take a short break:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3HuShaTNoY


:)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Maria on December 15, 2011, 10:49:57 PM
My flash player is not working: It crashed.

Quote
You need to upgrade your Adobe Flash Player to watch this video.

I tried to install it several times, but alas, nothing works. PM me if anyone has a clue. I use mozilla/firefox/ubuntu.

So, what is this video all about?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Jack Bauer on December 16, 2011, 02:03:45 AM
Let's take a short break:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3HuShaTNoY


:)
I LOVE IT!  Sent it to my pastor.  Come to think of it, maybe that's what lasting marriages are based on... Sent it to my pastor.

Yes, Dear.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: elijahmaria on December 16, 2011, 02:40:06 AM

I say that Rome and Russia cannot share a moral law when Orthodoxy declares, formally and informally, that the Catholic faith is heretical.

I just find your words so flawed.  Even the simplest woman on the street can see that we share a great amount of moral law, and that commonality is not destroyed by the small amount of your teaching which is flawed and heretical in our eyes.

 ;)

You are talking about a common ethic.  All over the world peoples who are not even Christian legislate in their own social structures strictures against murder, including infanticide and abortion, against theft, against slander and calumny, against infidelity in marriage [however they define it]...

OF COURSE you are going to have some common ethic between Christian groups...

But that does NOT mean that Russian and Rome share a catholic and systematic doctrinal and faith foundation out of which flows Catholic moral law...and yes al Misry the Vatican is the petrine see of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

You simply do not see Rome rushing out to embrace Orthodox morality.  Rather you see the pope reminding Orthodoxy about our differences, in a most polite, but public manner.

Nothing heretical there.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: elijahmaria on December 16, 2011, 02:40:06 AM
I agree with Neil, it sounds like the financial backers of "that site" didn't want Catholics to learn about Orthodoxy and convert.  While I was transitioning from Greek Catholicism to Orthodoxy I spent time at "that site."  Some of the posters that post here gave me solid advice and helped me along my way.  A poster here that was a mod as well invited me to her church and I never looked back. It was an easy transition.  I've been posting with some of our posters for the better part of 6 years. 
The latin triumphalism that is so profound on 'that other site' is not nice.  And as the moderator here I don't tolerate Orthodox triumphalism, not latin triumphalism.  I like sharing of knowledge and I don't like censoring but I won't put up with people playing the you're a heretic game or my God is better than yours.  People have their reasons for being Catholic.  People have their reasons for being Orthodox.  What is good is decent NON BICKERING discussion about Orthodox-Catholic topics here.

Moving forward I would like to see more topics in this forum, orthodox-catholic forum.  I would like to see more of the Greek Catholics post here that used to post at "that other site."  I would like to see some of the byzcath crowd come here as well  Comparing how Catholics and Orthodox celebrate feasts would be neat.  Discussing say catholic monasticism versus Orthodox monasticism would be neat.  Ask questions to better understand each other.
Remember a lot of Orthodox are ex-protestants who weren't too Catholic friendly to begin with.  Perhaps to help better understand Orthodoxy they should learn something about Catholicism. 
Just some food for thought.

Good thoughts!!...great thoughts in fact... ;)

Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on December 16, 2011, 04:51:04 AM
You simply do not see Rome rushing out to embrace Orthodox morality.  Rather you see the pope reminding Orthodoxy about our differences, in a most polite, but public manner.

Nothing heretical there.

I would be very surprised indeed if an institution, the papacy, an institution never intended by Christ our Saviour, were able to get everything right.  Walking on their own idiosyncratic path the Popes are certain to make mistakes in theology and in morals.. 
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: ialmisry on December 16, 2011, 09:29:14 AM

I say that Rome and Russia cannot share a moral law when Orthodoxy declares, formally and informally, that the Catholic faith is heretical.

I just find your words so flawed.  Even the simplest woman on the street can see that we share a great amount of moral law, and that commonality is not destroyed by the small amount of your teaching which is flawed and heretical in our eyes.

 ;)

You are talking about a common ethic.  All over the world peoples who are not even Christian legislate in their own social structures strictures against murder, including infanticide and abortion, against theft, against slander and calumny, against infidelity in marriage [however they define it]...

OF COURSE you are going to have some common ethic between Christian groups...

But that does NOT mean that Russian and Rome share a catholic and systematic doctrinal and faith foundation out of which flows Catholic moral law...and yes al Misry the Vatican is the petrine see of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
No, according to Pope St. Gregory, whom you would like to embrace as a "supreme pontiff" (and not that he might have been adverse to that), Rome, Alexandria and Antioch are one "petrine see" of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.  One Pope of that One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church proclaims the Faith and morality of St. Peter
(http://02varvara.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/patriarch-theodoros-of-alexandria-e1270214969610.jpg?w=1000)
one patriarch founded by St. Peter himself proclaiming his Faith and morality
(http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0fOPbp83jrcjC/610x.jpg)
and one bishop in Rome proclaiming St. Peter's Faith and morality
(http://fantana.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/ps-siluan.jpg)
You simply do not see Rome rushing out to embrace Orthodox morality.
No, just the Vatican's followers, 90+% of whom may pay lip service to the "magisterium," but embrace Orthodoxy morality nonetheless.

Rather you see the pope reminding Orthodoxy about our differences, in a most polite, but public manner.

Nothing heretical there.
You said:

I say that Rome and Russia cannot share a moral law when Orthodoxy declares, formally and informally, that the Catholic faith is heretical.
So it isn't that Russia, in holding to and proclaiming the Catholic Faith, is declaring, formally and informally, that the Vatican's faith is heretical, but rather the heretical Vatican reminding us of the differences between it and our Catholic Faith,  which prevents the Vatican (since Russia has a local Cathedral in Rome, and is in communion with the bishop at Rome in the Orthodox diptychs of the Catholic Church, "Rome" is inappropriate) and Russia from sharing a moral law.  That's OK, just don't try to shift the blame to Moscow.

Although I haven't seen your supreme pontiff reminding us of our differences, publicly, privately, politely or impolitely.  Just you.  A lot. 

But that's not new, now, is it?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: podkarpatska on December 16, 2011, 10:44:00 AM
I agree with Neil, it sounds like the financial backers of "that site" didn't want Catholics to learn about Orthodoxy and convert.  While I was transitioning from Greek Catholicism to Orthodoxy I spent time at "that site."  Some of the posters that post here gave me solid advice and helped me along my way.  A poster here that was a mod as well invited me to her church and I never looked back. It was an easy transition.  I've been posting with some of our posters for the better part of 6 years. 
The latin triumphalism that is so profound on 'that other site' is not nice.  And as the moderator here I don't tolerate Orthodox triumphalism, not latin triumphalism.  I like sharing of knowledge and I don't like censoring but I won't put up with people playing the you're a heretic game or my God is better than yours.  People have their reasons for being Catholic.  People have their reasons for being Orthodox.  What is good is decent NON BICKERING discussion about Orthodox-Catholic topics here.

Moving forward I would like to see more topics in this forum, orthodox-catholic forum.  I would like to see more of the Greek Catholics post here that used to post at "that other site."  I would like to see some of the byzcath crowd come here as well  Comparing how Catholics and Orthodox celebrate feasts would be neat.  Discussing say catholic monasticism versus Orthodox monasticism would be neat.  Ask questions to better understand each other.
Remember a lot of Orthodox are ex-protestants who weren't too Catholic friendly to begin with.  Perhaps to help better understand Orthodoxy they should learn something about Catholicism. 
Just some food for thought.

I agree with you and I try to do just that. Those of us with a mixture of Greek Catholicism and Orthodoxy in our own , or our families history, do bring a perspective to the 'divide' that is different in many ways than the theoretical one that triumphalists and boasters of either side would like to envision as the 'reality on the ground'.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Schultz on December 16, 2011, 11:08:14 AM
My flash player is not working: It crashed.

Quote
You need to upgrade your Adobe Flash Player to watch this video.

I tried to install it several times, but alas, nothing works. PM me if anyone has a clue. I use mozilla/firefox/ubuntu.

So, what is this video all about?

It's a scene from Cheers where Woody discovers that he and his fiancee Kelly are "from different religions."

He's Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod and she's Evangelical Lutheran Church of America.  :)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Adela on December 16, 2011, 11:55:46 AM
I agree with Neil, it sounds like the financial backers of "that site" didn't want Catholics to learn about Orthodoxy and convert.  While I was transitioning from Greek Catholicism to Orthodoxy I spent time at "that site."  Some of the posters that post here gave me solid advice and helped me along my way.  A poster here that was a mod as well invited me to her church and I never looked back. It was an easy transition.  I've been posting with some of our posters for the better part of 6 years.  
The latin triumphalism that is so profound on 'that other site' is not nice.  And as the moderator here I don't tolerate Orthodox triumphalism, not latin triumphalism.  I like sharing of knowledge and I don't like censoring but I won't put up with people playing the you're a heretic game or my God is better than yours.  People have their reasons for being Catholic.  People have their reasons for being Orthodox.  What is good is decent NON BICKERING discussion about Orthodox-Catholic topics here.

Moving forward I would like to see more topics in this forum, orthodox-catholic forum.  I would like to see more of the Greek Catholics post here that used to post at "that other site."  I would like to see some of the byzcath crowd come here as well  Comparing how Catholics and Orthodox celebrate feasts would be neat.  Discussing say catholic monasticism versus Orthodox monasticism would be neat.  Ask questions to better understand each other.
Remember a lot of Orthodox are ex-protestants who weren't too Catholic friendly to begin with.  Perhaps to help better understand Orthodoxy they should learn something about Catholicism.  
Just some food for thought.

I agree with you and I try to do just that. Those of us with a mixture of Greek Catholicism and Orthodoxy in our own , or our families history, do bring a perspective to the 'divide' that is different in many ways than the theoretical one that triumphalists and boasters of either side would like to envision as the 'reality on the ground'.

Yes, I enjoy reading posters such as Podkarpatska who can inform without attacking.  

These questions would be very interesting to delve into.  I did read on CAF (don't go there very often) where someone asked on the Eastern Catholicism forum what was the difference between Eastern Catholics and Orthodoxy. The answer was "The only difference is the Eastern Catholics have the pope".    But, that is such a shallow, misleading answer, there are some deeper differences such as the view on Original Sin, etc.  I would like to discuss these differences, and not hear words of attacks such as heretics and Vatican propagandists and Papists.....  Also, to find the commonality (without trying to be triumphant or to diminish the differences )
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: ialmisry on December 16, 2011, 11:59:38 AM
My flash player is not working: It crashed.

Quote
You need to upgrade your Adobe Flash Player to watch this video.

I tried to install it several times, but alas, nothing works. PM me if anyone has a clue. I use mozilla/firefox/ubuntu.

So, what is this video all about?

It's a scene from Cheers where Woody discovers that he and his fiancee Kelly are "from different religions."

He's Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod and she's Evangelical Lutheran Church of America.  :)
I thought this funny when I first saw that (still do, but then it doesn't involve me anymore and I have no direct dog in the fight), but seeing the (opposite) directions that the two have taken, I'm not sure they aren't two different religions.  My old parish was in the founding of the ELCA.  Once in, many fled out to the MS. (btw, that had nothing to do with me embracing Orthodoxy) Now, the parish just decided to close its doors after 80 years.
http://www.mayfairlutheranchicago.org/
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: FormerReformer on December 16, 2011, 12:17:58 PM
My flash player is not working: It crashed.

Quote
You need to upgrade your Adobe Flash Player to watch this video.

I tried to install it several times, but alas, nothing works. PM me if anyone has a clue. I use mozilla/firefox/ubuntu.

So, what is this video all about?

It's a scene from Cheers where Woody discovers that he and his fiancee Kelly are "from different religions."

He's Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod and she's Evangelical Lutheran Church of America.  :)

LOL That clip's popped up again? Must be that time of year. One of my favorite Cheers moments.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: FrChris on December 16, 2011, 12:19:28 PM
Let's take a short break:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3HuShaTNoY


:)

lol!

"Look out everybody: a fir tree!....A 5000 year old religion and Frasier Crane is going to bring it down with a 4' tree and tinsel!"
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Marc1152 on December 16, 2011, 09:47:49 PM
My flash player is not working: It crashed.

Quote
You need to upgrade your Adobe Flash Player to watch this video.

I tried to install it several times, but alas, nothing works. PM me if anyone has a clue. I use mozilla/firefox/ubuntu.

So, what is this video all about?

It's a scene from Cheers where Woody discovers that he and his fiancee Kelly are "from different religions."

He's Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod and she's Evangelical Lutheran Church of America.  :)

And to keep peace in the marriage he converts to Lutheran Church of America to which she comments:

"That's wonderful because when we go to heaven I don't want to be separated from you by barbed wire and barking dogs"


Oh and if they had children they would be "half breeds"

funny
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Jetavan on December 16, 2011, 10:51:28 PM
My flash player is not working: It crashed.

Quote
You need to upgrade your Adobe Flash Player to watch this video.

I tried to install it several times, but alas, nothing works. PM me if anyone has a clue. I use mozilla/firefox/ubuntu.

So, what is this video all about?

It's a scene from Cheers where Woody discovers that he and his fiancee Kelly are "from different religions."

He's Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod and she's Evangelical Lutheran Church of America.  :)

And to keep peace in the marriage he converts to Lutheran Church of America to which she comments:

"That's wonderful because when we go to heaven I don't want to be separated from you by barbed wire and barking dogs"


Oh and if they had children they would be "half breeds"

funny
Woody is Missouri Synod? Wow.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: JR on December 17, 2011, 09:58:28 AM
I agree with Neil, it sounds like the financial backers of "that site" didn't want Catholics to learn about Orthodoxy and convert.  While I was transitioning from Greek Catholicism to Orthodoxy I spent time at "that site."  Some of the posters that post here gave me solid advice and helped me along my way.  A poster here that was a mod as well invited me to her church and I never looked back. It was an easy transition.  I've been posting with some of our posters for the better part of 6 years. 
The latin triumphalism that is so profound on 'that other site' is not nice.  And as the moderator here I don't tolerate Orthodox triumphalism, not latin triumphalism.  I like sharing of knowledge and I don't like censoring but I won't put up with people playing the you're a heretic game or my God is better than yours.  People have their reasons for being Catholic.  People have their reasons for being Orthodox.  What is good is decent NON BICKERING discussion about Orthodox-Catholic topics here.

Moving forward I would like to see more topics in this forum, orthodox-catholic forum.  I would like to see more of the Greek Catholics post here that used to post at "that other site."  I would like to see some of the byzcath crowd come here as well  Comparing how Catholics and Orthodox celebrate feasts would be neat.  Discussing say catholic monasticism versus Orthodox monasticism would be neat.  Ask questions to better understand each other.
Remember a lot of Orthodox are ex-protestants who weren't too Catholic friendly to begin with.  Perhaps to help better understand Orthodoxy they should learn something about Catholicism. 
Just some food for thought.

I think this would be a great Idea, with no infighting....
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: primuspilus on December 19, 2011, 12:25:46 PM
I agree with Neil, it sounds like the financial backers of "that site" didn't want Catholics to learn about Orthodoxy and convert.  While I was transitioning from Greek Catholicism to Orthodoxy I spent time at "that site."  Some of the posters that post here gave me solid advice and helped me along my way.  A poster here that was a mod as well invited me to her church and I never looked back. It was an easy transition.  I've been posting with some of our posters for the better part of 6 years. 
The latin triumphalism that is so profound on 'that other site' is not nice.  And as the moderator here I don't tolerate Orthodox triumphalism, not latin triumphalism.  I like sharing of knowledge and I don't like censoring but I won't put up with people playing the you're a heretic game or my God is better than yours.  People have their reasons for being Catholic.  People have their reasons for being Orthodox.  What is good is decent NON BICKERING discussion about Orthodox-Catholic topics here.

Moving forward I would like to see more topics in this forum, orthodox-catholic forum.  I would like to see more of the Greek Catholics post here that used to post at "that other site."  I would like to see some of the byzcath crowd come here as well  Comparing how Catholics and Orthodox celebrate feasts would be neat.  Discussing say catholic monasticism versus Orthodox monasticism would be neat.  Ask questions to better understand each other.
Remember a lot of Orthodox are ex-protestants who weren't too Catholic friendly to begin with.  Perhaps to help better understand Orthodoxy they should learn something about Catholicism. 
Just some food for thought.

I think this would be a great Idea, with no infighting....
Here? Good luck :)

PP
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: ialmisry on December 19, 2011, 10:43:31 PM
Interesting what can be discussed in the new forum
Quote
MarcusAureliusWhat if instead of looking for a top-down solution, Catholics and Orthodox tried for a bottom up solution? Individual Roman and Orthodox dioceses, but not entire churches having dialogue with eachother with the goal of intercommunion. For example, Roman Diocese A and Orthodox Diocese A are not in communion with each other. Roman Bishop A and Orthodox Bishop A reach terms for intercommunion between their dioceses. Roman Diocese B and Orthodox Diocese A may not be in communion with each other, but this would not reflect the terms between Roman Diocese A and Orthodox Diocese B. Considering that Catholics already permit Orthodox to communion and in limited circumstances Orthodox permit Catholics to communion, is there any reason why this could not work on a larger scale if it already can on a smaller scale? Maybe not even dioceses but individual parishes with pastors agreeing to communion?
Quote
ElijahmariaEspecially since the Orthodox are fond of reminding us that the whole Church is located in each episcopal see...thereby mitigating the idea of a universal Church under one pontiff.

Quote
HesychiosFor their part Orthodox diocesan bishops are unlikely to act without the prior agreement of their respective synods
Quote
ElijahmariaOh but they are. As long as what they do is not heretical they surely are able to make these kinds of biding and loosing!! When enough of them do it together...we call it TRADITION!!.... :P
Must be those invisible Orthodox she always speaks about.
Quote
We are not talking about some sort of universal resumption of communion. We are talking about the admittance of individuals to the chalice by individual bishops and pastors. We are talking about something that is already happening.

Whatever happened in Orthodoxy to ..."where the bishop is there is the Church"...Is that only words or does it mean something?

Who is it now that's all hung up on authority?

One man one vote. Metropolitans and Patriarchs are just bishops and not even bishops with different hats.

What are you telling us?...That there is such a thing as Primatial Power in Orthodoxy?

Quote
MardukmThe issue here, as usual, is not what the Catholic Church teaches, but what non-Catholics THINK she teaches.

Quote
ElijahmariaI think you are quite right about what is in the services books as a renunciation. And I will even take it a step further. I think it is intentional. I think it is intentional because I do not think it has, at all, been the intention of most of Orthodoxy to really claim that the papal Church is in formal heresy...even with her petrine doctrine.

I think it is an insurance policy to make the convert feel as though it really is a conversion and not just a transfer of authority and to provide plausible deniability if it is ever challenged from outside.
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=625119

The powers that be have posted towards the beginning of the thread, so it must be A-OK.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on December 19, 2011, 11:51:28 PM
/\  Mary knows things on a much deeper level than what she is revealing on CAF.  She could actually deepen their understanding quite a lot.  Of course Hesychios and Mickey and Caravadossi always do an excellent piece of work.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: username! on December 19, 2011, 11:59:32 PM
I don't even remember what my name was over there lol, and I posted there a good bit.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Melkite on December 20, 2011, 03:35:28 AM
I don't even remember what my name was over there lol, and I posted there a good bit.

ROFL - initials, followed by a number :D

Many years,

Neil - the institutional memory
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cavaradossi on December 20, 2011, 03:37:46 AM
/\  Mary knows things on a much deeper level than what she is revealing on CAF.  She could actually deepen their understanding quite a lot.  Of course Hesychios and Mickey and Caravadossi always do an excellent piece of work.

That is my hope about Mary's participation. I'm glad to see her there, even if I don't agree with her all the time.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: podkarpatska on December 20, 2011, 10:29:16 AM
Honestly, I never visited CAF until this morning and I was about half way through their thread under discussion here when I felt compelled to make an observation here for the benefit of others like me who were never involved in past disputes on that board. Certain quotes were picked out of the thread earlier on this thread apparently as an example what is being discussed there. Read by an Orthodox reader here, like me, they are inflammatory and got my curiosity up. When the entire thread is read, even these statements FOR THE MOST PART are not as full of bile or vitriol as the casual reader here might surmise from the extracts.

Sadly, this is an all too common form of debate in American society in 2011 - be the topic politics and talk radio, sports and talk radio and religion and talk radio - all together with blogs and the internet for added 'fun.' As a young lawyer, I found it easy to take bits and pieces out of a witness statement that really were hurtful to the other side and make much out of them. I soon learned that unless those statements were really material and relevant to the 'big picture' the wind would be taken out of my sails either upon re-direct examination or by the Judge in his or her opinion. Same goes for any form of argument.

I remember an old litigator who took me aside years ago with some advice. It's good for the law and good, in my opinion in any debate: Present your arguments clearly and concisely and when they offend others be prepared to support your point of view and rebut theirs with passion and reason - to allow one of these forces to overpower the other is to begin to lose the argument and no one will be persuaded of your cause.

Now I can add some pithy anti-Roman comments here that someone there can pick out and present as 'typical examples' of Orthodox intolerance or 'ignorance' of Roman Catholicism. (For what it is worth, claiming that your debate opponent is 'ignorant' of your point of view is a typical ploy to get around substantive issues. It usually doesn't work in the real world and it shouldn't work in the internets either.....)

For example, I believe that unless the Church of Rome comes to terms with the role of the Papacy and the Sees of Peter in terms of the early to mid first millenial Church there will be no chance of reunion. Likewise, the dogmaticization of doctrines such as the Immaculate Conception and Papal Supremacy in the 19th century are more than mere 'political' differences of opinion with us. However - as to a broader, Patristic conception of the Apostolic and Catholic Faith of the Orthodox, the Romans share a larger commonality with us than any other of Christ's followers and we ought to strive to find a way to express our shared patrimony and accept some differences in the presentation of that patrimony as was done throughout the conciliar period and the fall of the Iconoclasts. We shared communion with the west for nearly 1,000 years in spite of our differences with Augustine and the concept of 'original sin' just to name one such example.

As you can see, by merely stating a series of opinions in a calm, measured manner someone who takes issue with the underlying sentiments expressed in the entire paragraph can pick and choose phrases and words out of context and make my statements seem far more uncharitable and boastful than they were ever intended to be. That goes, by the way for both Roman Catholic and/or Orthodox posters who opposes reconciliation on any terms other than 'unconditional surrender.'

All of us have suffered from the impact of such 'total war' for far too long. By carrying it on 'ad infinitum' all we do is empower the true enemies of Christ and His Church.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: J Michael on December 20, 2011, 11:17:58 AM
Honestly, I never visited CAF until this morning and I was about half way through their thread under discussion here when I felt compelled to make an observation here for the benefit of others like me who were never involved in past disputes on that board. Certain quotes were picked out of the thread earlier on this thread apparently as an example what is being discussed there. Read by an Orthodox reader here, like me, they are inflammatory and got my curiosity up. When the entire thread is read, even these statements FOR THE MOST PART are not as full of bile or vitriol as the casual reader here might surmise from the extracts.

Sadly, this is an all too common form of debate in American society in 2011 - be the topic politics and talk radio, sports and talk radio and religion and talk radio - all together with blogs and the internet for added 'fun.' As a young lawyer, I found it easy to take bits and pieces out of a witness statement that really were hurtful to the other side and make much out of them. I soon learned that unless those statements were really material and relevant to the 'big picture' the wind would be taken out of my sails either upon re-direct examination or by the Judge in his or her opinion. Same goes for any form of argument.

I remember an old litigator who took me aside years ago with some advice. It's good for the law and good, in my opinion in any debate: Present your arguments clearly and concisely and when they offend others be prepared to support your point of view and rebut theirs with passion and reason - to allow one of these forces to overpower the other is to begin to lose the argument and no one will be persuaded of your cause.

Now I can add some pithy anti-Roman comments here that someone there can pick out and present as 'typical examples' of Orthodox intolerance or 'ignorance' of Roman Catholicism. (For what it is worth, claiming that your debate opponent is 'ignorant' of your point of view is a typical ploy to get around substantive issues. It usually doesn't work in the real world and it shouldn't work in the internets either.....)

For example, I believe that unless the Church of Rome comes to terms with the role of the Papacy and the Sees of Peter in terms of the early to mid first millenial Church there will be no chance of reunion. Likewise, the dogmaticization of doctrines such as the Immaculate Conception and Papal Supremacy in the 19th century are more than mere 'political' differences of opinion with us. However - as to a broader, Patristic conception of the Apostolic and Catholic Faith of the Orthodox, the Romans share a larger commonality with us than any other of Christ's followers and we ought to strive to find a way to express our shared patrimony and accept some differences in the presentation of that patrimony as was done throughout the conciliar period and the fall of the Iconoclasts. We shared communion with the west for nearly 1,000 years in spite of our differences with Augustine and the concept of 'original sin' just to name one such example.

As you can see, by merely stating a series of opinions in a calm, measured manner someone who takes issue with the underlying sentiments expressed in the entire paragraph can pick and choose phrases and words out of context and make my statements seem far more uncharitable and boastful than they were ever intended to be. That goes, by the way for both Roman Catholic and/or Orthodox posters who opposes reconciliation on any terms other than 'unconditional surrender.'

All of us have suffered from the impact of such 'total war' for far too long. By carrying it on 'ad infinitum' all we do is empower the true enemies of Christ and His Church.

2 Thumbs up!!! ;)

Very, very well said!

Thank you.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: elijahmaria on December 20, 2011, 01:18:38 PM
Honestly, I never visited CAF until this morning and I was about half way through their thread under discussion here when I felt compelled to make an observation here for the benefit of others like me who were never involved in past disputes on that board. Certain quotes were picked out of the thread earlier on this thread apparently as an example what is being discussed there. Read by an Orthodox reader here, like me, they are inflammatory and got my curiosity up. When the entire thread is read, even these statements FOR THE MOST PART are not as full of bile or vitriol as the casual reader here might surmise from the extracts.

Sadly, this is an all too common form of debate in American society in 2011 - be the topic politics and talk radio, sports and talk radio and religion and talk radio - all together with blogs and the internet for added 'fun.' As a young lawyer, I found it easy to take bits and pieces out of a witness statement that really were hurtful to the other side and make much out of them. I soon learned that unless those statements were really material and relevant to the 'big picture' the wind would be taken out of my sails either upon re-direct examination or by the Judge in his or her opinion. Same goes for any form of argument.

I remember an old litigator who took me aside years ago with some advice. It's good for the law and good, in my opinion in any debate: Present your arguments clearly and concisely and when they offend others be prepared to support your point of view and rebut theirs with passion and reason - to allow one of these forces to overpower the other is to begin to lose the argument and no one will be persuaded of your cause.

Now I can add some pithy anti-Roman comments here that someone there can pick out and present as 'typical examples' of Orthodox intolerance or 'ignorance' of Roman Catholicism. (For what it is worth, claiming that your debate opponent is 'ignorant' of your point of view is a typical ploy to get around substantive issues. It usually doesn't work in the real world and it shouldn't work in the internets either.....)

For example, I believe that unless the Church of Rome comes to terms with the role of the Papacy and the Sees of Peter in terms of the early to mid first millenial Church there will be no chance of reunion. Likewise, the dogmaticization of doctrines such as the Immaculate Conception and Papal Supremacy in the 19th century are more than mere 'political' differences of opinion with us. However - as to a broader, Patristic conception of the Apostolic and Catholic Faith of the Orthodox, the Romans share a larger commonality with us than any other of Christ's followers and we ought to strive to find a way to express our shared patrimony and accept some differences in the presentation of that patrimony as was done throughout the conciliar period and the fall of the Iconoclasts. We shared communion with the west for nearly 1,000 years in spite of our differences with Augustine and the concept of 'original sin' just to name one such example.

As you can see, by merely stating a series of opinions in a calm, measured manner someone who takes issue with the underlying sentiments expressed in the entire paragraph can pick and choose phrases and words out of context and make my statements seem far more uncharitable and boastful than they were ever intended to be. That goes, by the way for both Roman Catholic and/or Orthodox posters who opposes reconciliation on any terms other than 'unconditional surrender.'

All of us have suffered from the impact of such 'total war' for far too long. By carrying it on 'ad infinitum' all we do is empower the true enemies of Christ and His Church.

That's nicely done. 

Already I've registered the fact that to continuously put Orthodox topics under the heading of non-Catholic is a travesty and flies in the faith of all that Blessed John Paul II and Benedetto the Wise ever tried to teach us.  I get the party line back but I think the woman moderating the Eastern Catholic forums understands what I am saying and agrees but can do no more than I can.

For now, it seems that all threads which only reference Orthodox issues: they go in the non-Catholic section BUT...if the subject and topic can be crafted in such a way that it includes eastern Catholic issues, then it will stay.

As Father Ambrose says, the Orthodox contributors there at the moment are doing a very nice job of representing Orthodoxy in a most irenic manner.

The Roman rite posters are not all hostile.  In fact most of them are not, but of those who are, they are to a fault.  Even with that I think there are some excellent threads going.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: ialmisry on December 20, 2011, 02:13:29 PM
Honestly, I never visited CAF until this morning and I was about half way through their thread under discussion here when I felt compelled to make an observation here for the benefit of others like me who were never involved in past disputes on that board. Certain quotes were picked out of the thread earlier on this thread apparently as an example what is being discussed there. Read by an Orthodox reader here, like me, they are inflammatory and got my curiosity up. When the entire thread is read, even these statements FOR THE MOST PART are not as full of bile or vitriol as the casual reader here might surmise from the extracts.

Already I've registered the fact that to continuously put Orthodox topics under the heading of non-Catholic is a travesty and flies in the faith of all that Blessed John Paul II and Benedetto the Wise ever tried to teach us.  I get the party line back but I think the woman moderating the Eastern Catholic forums understands what I am saying and agrees but can do no more than I can.

For now, it seems that all threads which only reference Orthodox issues: they go in the non-Catholic section BUT...if the subject and topic can be crafted in such a way that it includes eastern Catholic issues, then it will stay.
Which is why I posted the posts and (more importantly) the link: the thread in question has absolutely nothing to do with the "eastern Catholics" as that board defines them (also posted there on the forum linked), but yet is it allowed to remain, while so many others get tossed into the "non-Catholic religion," where Orthodox are lumped with Protestants, Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Jews and Muslims. If that is justifed, then a thread advocating communion with the Orthodox belongs in "non-Catholic" as well.  Unless someone is advocating communion with Protestants, Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Jews and Muslims as well.

IOW, an agenda afoot, and that is the criteria by which posts and posters are allowed to post, tossed aside into "non-Catholic" or outright banned (with or without the label). That's OK, after all it is on their dime.  But let's call a spade a spade.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: J Michael on December 20, 2011, 03:09:07 PM
Just an FYI---From CAF: Statement of Purpose

"This forum used to be titled Eastern Christianity. It allowed for discussions on the various issues between the Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodoxy, hopefully in the cause of ecumenism. Unfortunately, forum discussions often deteriorated into fights resulting in a large increase in management time (which we could ill afford).

This forum will now be titled Eastern Catholicism. The new focus of this forum is to provide a community for Eastern Catholics and to help Latin Catholics better appreciate the Church's Eastern heritage. Non-Catholics are welcome to participate in compliance with the stated purpose of the forum.

Thank you for your participation in this forum and we hope that the changes we have made will contribute to this forum’s success."


and

"Re: EC Forum: STATEMENT OF PURPOSE
We understand that there is a wide diversity of expression of theology, spirituality, and discipline between and within the Eastern, Oriental, and Western rites and churches. While these topics may legitimately be discussed in charity, calling into question the catholicity, orthodoxy, or personal faith of another is outside the purpose of this forum and will not be tolerated. Please review our forum guidelines on charity before posting. Thank you."

__________________

Source: http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=243365
So, I guess if one has issues with them, it's best to take it up with the folks at CAF, no?

By the way, I offer no endorsement, approval, or disapproval of their stated purpose or how it plays out in the real world.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: elijahmaria on December 20, 2011, 03:23:27 PM
Just an FYI---From CAF: Statement of Purpose

"This forum used to be titled Eastern Christianity. It allowed for discussions on the various issues between the Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodoxy, hopefully in the cause of ecumenism. Unfortunately, forum discussions often deteriorated into fights resulting in a large increase in management time (which we could ill afford).

This forum will now be titled Eastern Catholicism. The new focus of this forum is to provide a community for Eastern Catholics and to help Latin Catholics better appreciate the Church's Eastern heritage. Non-Catholics are welcome to participate in compliance with the stated purpose of the forum.

Thank you for your participation in this forum and we hope that the changes we have made will contribute to this forum’s success."


and

"Re: EC Forum: STATEMENT OF PURPOSE
We understand that there is a wide diversity of expression of theology, spirituality, and discipline between and within the Eastern, Oriental, and Western rites and churches. While these topics may legitimately be discussed in charity, calling into question the catholicity, orthodoxy, or personal faith of another is outside the purpose of this forum and will not be tolerated. Please review our forum guidelines on charity before posting. Thank you."

__________________

Source: http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=243365
So, I guess if one has issues with them, it's best to take it up with the folks at CAF, no?

By the way, I offer no endorsement, approval, or disapproval of their stated purpose or how it plays out in the real world.

I've pushed pretty hard privately...I should amend that I've pushed hard enough to be told that the forum administration is aware of what I am saying in my notes.  I don't feel threatened...I mean the communications are not at all threatening. But: They are not going to budge. 

I think it is petty as well as being absolutely substantially wrong and untrue.  So far they are not stopping me from commenting on each Orthodox thread in the "non-Catholic" section that Orthodox believers are Orthodox Catholics and that the Orthodox Church is one holy catholic and apostolic.  At the moment I don't see how we can do more, except as I said, make the discussion topics a matter of Orthodoxy as it is related to those in the eastern Catholic Churches.

M.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: J Michael on December 20, 2011, 03:37:20 PM
Just an FYI---From CAF: Statement of Purpose

"This forum used to be titled Eastern Christianity. It allowed for discussions on the various issues between the Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodoxy, hopefully in the cause of ecumenism. Unfortunately, forum discussions often deteriorated into fights resulting in a large increase in management time (which we could ill afford).

This forum will now be titled Eastern Catholicism. The new focus of this forum is to provide a community for Eastern Catholics and to help Latin Catholics better appreciate the Church's Eastern heritage. Non-Catholics are welcome to participate in compliance with the stated purpose of the forum.

Thank you for your participation in this forum and we hope that the changes we have made will contribute to this forum’s success."


and

"Re: EC Forum: STATEMENT OF PURPOSE
We understand that there is a wide diversity of expression of theology, spirituality, and discipline between and within the Eastern, Oriental, and Western rites and churches. While these topics may legitimately be discussed in charity, calling into question the catholicity, orthodoxy, or personal faith of another is outside the purpose of this forum and will not be tolerated. Please review our forum guidelines on charity before posting. Thank you."

__________________

Source: http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=243365
So, I guess if one has issues with them, it's best to take it up with the folks at CAF, no?

By the way, I offer no endorsement, approval, or disapproval of their stated purpose or how it plays out in the real world.

I've pushed pretty hard privately...I should amend that I've pushed hard enough to be told that the forum administration is aware of what I am saying in my notes.  I don't feel threatened...I mean the communications are not at all threatening. But: They are not going to budge. 

I think it is petty as well as being absolutely substantially wrong and untrue.  So far they are not stopping me from commenting on each Orthodox thread in the "non-Catholic" section that Orthodox believers are Orthodox Catholics and that the Orthodox Church is one holy catholic and apostolic.  At the moment I don't see how we can do more, except as I said, make the discussion topics a matter of Orthodoxy as it is related to those in the eastern Catholic Churches.

M.

You have my sympathies and support, for whatever that is worth  ;).  No, they're not going to budge.  It's their shtick and they'll play it their own way.  I know that rubs some people the wrong way, but just think...if I had my own ideas about how they should do things; if Isa had his own ideas about how they should run things; if you had yours; if primuspilus had his; Papist his; Wyatt his; and so on ad infinitum, and we all tried to push our own agendas and ways of running things, it would be complete and utter chaos.  When you join someone's club, you play by their rules.  If you don't like the rules, you don't join the club.  If you want to change their rules, nine times out of ten, you'll experience opposition to a greater or lesser degree.  Oh well.... :( :(
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: elijahmaria on December 20, 2011, 03:46:27 PM
Just an FYI---From CAF: Statement of Purpose

"This forum used to be titled Eastern Christianity. It allowed for discussions on the various issues between the Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodoxy, hopefully in the cause of ecumenism. Unfortunately, forum discussions often deteriorated into fights resulting in a large increase in management time (which we could ill afford).

This forum will now be titled Eastern Catholicism. The new focus of this forum is to provide a community for Eastern Catholics and to help Latin Catholics better appreciate the Church's Eastern heritage. Non-Catholics are welcome to participate in compliance with the stated purpose of the forum.

Thank you for your participation in this forum and we hope that the changes we have made will contribute to this forum’s success."


and

"Re: EC Forum: STATEMENT OF PURPOSE
We understand that there is a wide diversity of expression of theology, spirituality, and discipline between and within the Eastern, Oriental, and Western rites and churches. While these topics may legitimately be discussed in charity, calling into question the catholicity, orthodoxy, or personal faith of another is outside the purpose of this forum and will not be tolerated. Please review our forum guidelines on charity before posting. Thank you."

__________________

Source: http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=243365
So, I guess if one has issues with them, it's best to take it up with the folks at CAF, no?

By the way, I offer no endorsement, approval, or disapproval of their stated purpose or how it plays out in the real world.

I've pushed pretty hard privately...I should amend that I've pushed hard enough to be told that the forum administration is aware of what I am saying in my notes.  I don't feel threatened...I mean the communications are not at all threatening. But: They are not going to budge. 

I think it is petty as well as being absolutely substantially wrong and untrue.  So far they are not stopping me from commenting on each Orthodox thread in the "non-Catholic" section that Orthodox believers are Orthodox Catholics and that the Orthodox Church is one holy catholic and apostolic.  At the moment I don't see how we can do more, except as I said, make the discussion topics a matter of Orthodoxy as it is related to those in the eastern Catholic Churches.

M.

You have my sympathies and support, for whatever that is worth  ;).  No, they're not going to budge.  It's their shtick and they'll play it their own way.  I know that rubs some people the wrong way, but just think...if I had my own ideas about how they should do things; if Isa had his own ideas about how they should run things; if you had yours; if primuspilus had his; Papist his; Wyatt his; and so on ad infinitum, and we all tried to push our own agendas and ways of running things, it would be complete and utter chaos.  When you join someone's club, you play by their rules.  If you don't like the rules, you don't join the club.  If you want to change their rules, nine times out of ten, you'll experience opposition to a greater or lesser degree.  Oh well.... :( :(

Ahhh...I think this is too pessimistic.  If I took this tack, I'd have gone from this forum many months ago.  It would have been my loss...I believe.  There are some very wonderful people here.  I've learned a great deal and I am grateful to the administrators and moderators for their general good will.  Very few here are so closed to me and my way of thinking and being that they would have ever simply pushed me out...and believe me it could have happened had that been the goal.   What I am trying to say is that we've all given a little here and I have found a place where I am comfortable and able to speak freely enough.

So I don't expect the administration at CAF to be so willing to bend yet...But I think there may again come a time there when the Orthodox are not called non-Catholics, and the organic tie between Orthodoxy and eastern Catholics is restored.  I will continue to hope that and work toward that time...couldn't hurt.

 :)

M.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: J Michael on December 20, 2011, 03:57:27 PM
Just an FYI---From CAF: Statement of Purpose

"This forum used to be titled Eastern Christianity. It allowed for discussions on the various issues between the Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodoxy, hopefully in the cause of ecumenism. Unfortunately, forum discussions often deteriorated into fights resulting in a large increase in management time (which we could ill afford).

This forum will now be titled Eastern Catholicism. The new focus of this forum is to provide a community for Eastern Catholics and to help Latin Catholics better appreciate the Church's Eastern heritage. Non-Catholics are welcome to participate in compliance with the stated purpose of the forum.

Thank you for your participation in this forum and we hope that the changes we have made will contribute to this forum’s success."


and

"Re: EC Forum: STATEMENT OF PURPOSE
We understand that there is a wide diversity of expression of theology, spirituality, and discipline between and within the Eastern, Oriental, and Western rites and churches. While these topics may legitimately be discussed in charity, calling into question the catholicity, orthodoxy, or personal faith of another is outside the purpose of this forum and will not be tolerated. Please review our forum guidelines on charity before posting. Thank you."

__________________

Source: http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=243365
So, I guess if one has issues with them, it's best to take it up with the folks at CAF, no?

By the way, I offer no endorsement, approval, or disapproval of their stated purpose or how it plays out in the real world.

I've pushed pretty hard privately...I should amend that I've pushed hard enough to be told that the forum administration is aware of what I am saying in my notes.  I don't feel threatened...I mean the communications are not at all threatening. But: They are not going to budge.  

I think it is petty as well as being absolutely substantially wrong and untrue.  So far they are not stopping me from commenting on each Orthodox thread in the "non-Catholic" section that Orthodox believers are Orthodox Catholics and that the Orthodox Church is one holy catholic and apostolic.  At the moment I don't see how we can do more, except as I said, make the discussion topics a matter of Orthodoxy as it is related to those in the eastern Catholic Churches.

M.

You have my sympathies and support, for whatever that is worth  ;).  No, they're not going to budge.  It's their shtick and they'll play it their own way.  I know that rubs some people the wrong way, but just think...if I had my own ideas about how they should do things; if Isa had his own ideas about how they should run things; if you had yours; if primuspilus had his; Papist his; Wyatt his; and so on ad infinitum, and we all tried to push our own agendas and ways of running things, it would be complete and utter chaos.  When you join someone's club, you play by their rules.  If you don't like the rules, you don't join the club.  If you want to change their rules, nine times out of ten, you'll experience opposition to a greater or lesser degree.  Oh well.... :( :(

Ahhh...I think this is too pessimistic.  If I took this tack, I'd have gone from this forum many months ago.  It would have been my loss...I believe.  There are some very wonderful people here.  I've learned a great deal and I am grateful to the administrators and moderators for their general good will.  Very few here are so closed to me and my way of thinking and being that they would have ever simply pushed me out...and believe me it could have happened had that been the goal.   What I am trying to say is that we've all given a little here and I have found a place where I am comfortable and able to speak freely enough.

So I don't expect the administration at CAF to be so willing to bend yet...But I think there may again come a time there when the Orthodox are not called non-Catholics, and the organic tie between Orthodoxy and eastern Catholics is restored.  I will continue to hope that and work toward that time...couldn't hurt.

 :)

M.

I don't think it's pessimistic--just realistic, at least given the state of things now.  Remember, too, that if I was pessimistic about it, I wouldn't even be giving you my sympathies and support  ;).

It's useful, too, to remember that CAF, as large as it is, is not the Church--just a group a apologists doing their thing.  And God bless them for doing it, too, even if I or others don't necessarily agree with all the ways they go about doing it.  They are no more the whole of the Catholic Church than this board is the whole of the Orthodox Church.

I, too, find it somewhat offensive that Orthodox are considered non-Catholics, and hope and pray that your work at CAF bears good fruit.  I'm glad you have the time and energy to devote to it!
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: elijahmaria on December 20, 2011, 04:06:12 PM

I, too, find it somewhat offensive that Orthodox are considered non-Catholics, and hope and pray that your work at CAF bears good fruit.  I'm glad you have the time and energy to devote to it!

Thankee for saying so, but there are many there, Orthodox and eastern Catholic, who will make it possible in time to make changes that reflect our ecclesial realities more accurately and with theological soundness.

I don't have the time but I am making time for the moment.  I am not as at home there as I am here so I will most likely fade in and out from time to time.  I am not well received by my eastern Catholic brothers, as some of Irish Melkite's off-handed comments attest here on this forum.  They can be a nasty bunch when they put their minds to it.  These fellows here can't hold a candle to it.   :)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: J Michael on December 20, 2011, 04:17:13 PM

I, too, find it somewhat offensive that Orthodox are considered non-Catholics, and hope and pray that your work at CAF bears good fruit.  I'm glad you have the time and energy to devote to it!

Thankee for saying so, but there are many there, Orthodox and eastern Catholic, who will make it possible in time to make changes that reflect our ecclesial realities more accurately and with theological soundness.

I don't have the time but I am making time for the moment.  I am not as at home there as I am here so I will most likely fade in and out from time to time.  I am not well received by my eastern Catholic brothers, as some of Irish Melkite's off-handed comments attest here on this forum.  They can be a nasty bunch when they put their minds to it.  These fellows here can't hold a candle to it.   :)

I've noticed that there has been on any discussion board I've been on or visited a group, usually pretty small, of some nasty but highly vociferous and verbose posters who, well, tend to cast a pall over things at times.  Folks being what and who they are, there's no reason why CAF should be totally immune to that.  Unfortunately  :(.  But, keep on pluggin' away, Mary  ;) ;)!
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: elijahmaria on December 20, 2011, 04:23:01 PM

I, too, find it somewhat offensive that Orthodox are considered non-Catholics, and hope and pray that your work at CAF bears good fruit.  I'm glad you have the time and energy to devote to it!

Thankee for saying so, but there are many there, Orthodox and eastern Catholic, who will make it possible in time to make changes that reflect our ecclesial realities more accurately and with theological soundness.

I don't have the time but I am making time for the moment.  I am not as at home there as I am here so I will most likely fade in and out from time to time.  I am not well received by my eastern Catholic brothers, as some of Irish Melkite's off-handed comments attest here on this forum.  They can be a nasty bunch when they put their minds to it.  These fellows here can't hold a candle to it.   :)

I've noticed that there has been on any discussion board I've been on or visited a group, usually pretty small, of some nasty but highly vociferous and verbose posters who, well, tend to cast a pall over things at times.  Folks being what and who they are, there's no reason why CAF should be totally immune to that.  Unfortunately  :(.  But, keep on pluggin' away, Mary  ;) ;)!

I've done my share over the years, of harsh words.  But I've lived to see many of them come home to roost in truth.  Somewhere along the line I got tired of "nasty"... :)...and found a few good Orthodox where I could feel at home...and there it is.

M.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on December 20, 2011, 05:06:05 PM

All of us have suffered from the impact of such 'total war' for far too long. By carrying it on 'ad infinitum' all we do is empower the true enemies of Christ and His Church.

Loving individual Catholics as I do and many of them,  yet I think we must not be blind to the nature of Catholicism and its ambitions and intentions in the high echelons of their Church. Saint Paul says in Ephesians “ For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.”

Now the mighty powers of this dark world within the Catholic Church have waged war on our holy Church for a thousand years, assaulting us spiritually and physically and militarily with great armies, and also attempting to weaken and wound us with the creation of look-alike Churches with look-alike Patriarchs.  They have tried, and they have succeeded, in inflicting great damage on the Church of Christ..

Is it not naive to be too complacent about the new “peace offensive” which has been occurring for only the last 40 years?  Just a new tactic which continues the 1000 war against us in the high places of Catholicism. 

Repeating myself I know, but the 1997 words of Metropolitan Anthony Bloom come as a needed warning, from a man well seasoned in these things - Do not be complacent!  The age old enemy of the Church has not fallen asleep.

"Our relationship with Roman Catholicism

"It is time we realised that Rome is only interested in extinguishing Orthodoxy.
Theological encounters and 'accords' on the basis of texts lead us up a blind alley,
for behind them there looms a firm resolve of the Vatican to swallow up the Orthodox Church."

The whole thing is in "Sourozh" the diocesan magazine of the UK Russian diocese:
Metr. Anthony of Sourozh, "A Letter to Patriarch Alexis of Moscow and All
Russia", SOUROZH, 69 (August 1997), 17-22.

Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: biro on December 20, 2011, 05:10:44 PM
Quote
"It is time we realised that Rome is only interested in extinguishing Orthodoxy.
Theological encounters and 'accords' on the basis of texts lead us up a blind alley,
for behind them there looms a firm resolve of the Vatican to swallow up the Orthodox Church."

In all my years as a Roman Catholic, I never heard anything remotely like this.

Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on December 20, 2011, 05:16:21 PM
Podkarpatska,  I need to say that I am not attacking your post and not putting it down.  What you wrote was both beautiful and true.  But I wanted to balance it with another aspect which is also true.  When dealing with a Church which has been an enemy of the Orthodox for so many centuries we have to be both "gentle as doves" (your message) and "wise as serpents" (my message.)   Between the two approaches we can slowly proceed towards unity.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: elijahmaria on December 20, 2011, 05:27:51 PM
Podkarpatska,  I need to say that I am not attacking your post and not putting it down.  What you wrote was both beautiful and true.  But I wanted to balance it with another aspect which is also true.  When dealing with a Church which has been an enemy of the Orthodox for so many centuries we have to be both "gentle as doves" (your message) and "wise as serpents" (my message.)   Between the two approaches we can slowly proceed towards unity.

When are you ever going to get to the gentle dove part?... 8)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: podkarpatska on December 20, 2011, 05:41:08 PM
Podkarpatska,  I need to say that I am not attacking your post and not putting it down.  What you wrote was both beautiful and true.  But I wanted to balance it with another aspect which is also true.  When dealing with a Church which has been an enemy of the Orthodox for so many centuries we have to be both "gentle as doves" (your message) and "wise as serpents" (my message.)   Between the two approaches we can slowly proceed towards unity.

I recall that one of Ronald Reagan's favorite sayings when dealing with Gorbachev and the rapidly changing USSR was 'Trust, but verify.' Sage advice then, and I would agree that is another way of saying what we both were trying to express!

(While we rightly focus on the historical 'adventures' directed by Rome against the Orthodox world, we Orthodox tend to forget some of the history of the Catholic Church in which she was not only waging war on the Orthodox, but upon her own peoples as well. Alliances with this prince or that duchy or this king or that queen etc...Excesses of the 'Holy' Inquisition and the excesses which led to Luther's initial break with Rome..The persistent anti-Catholicism which resonates across Western 'intelligentsia' (and the love/hate relationship many Western intellectuals have with the Church) is a by-product of that sad part of the history of the Church of Rome..... It does seem that a large part of that Church, led by less insular Popes, over the past forty or fifty years has tried to come to grips with her own history and from that outside looking in, it appears from time to time that her efforts are not always 'unanimous' or easily  accepted within her own communion.)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on December 20, 2011, 05:42:47 PM
Podkarpatska,  I need to say that I am not attacking your post and not putting it down.  What you wrote was both beautiful and true.  But I wanted to balance it with another aspect which is also true.  When dealing with a Church which has been an enemy of the Orthodox for so many centuries we have to be both "gentle as doves" (your message) and "wise as serpents" (my message.)   Between the two approaches we can slowly proceed towards unity.

When are you ever going to get to the gentle dove part?... 8)

I am there already.  With my family, with a multitude of friends.  The hawk aspect is needed only for the higher echelons of Catholicism in the ecumenical arena.  Who is naive enough to believe that a Church which has fought so strongly, one might even say diabolically, to destroy the Church of Christ for 1000 years has overnight in the last 40 years since Vatican II changed from a leopard into a lamb?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Melkite on December 21, 2011, 03:01:14 AM

I, too, find it somewhat offensive that Orthodox are considered non-Catholics, and hope and pray that your work at CAF bears good fruit.  I'm glad you have the time and energy to devote to it!

Thankee for saying so, but there are many there, Orthodox and eastern Catholic, who will make it possible in time to make changes that reflect our ecclesial realities more accurately and with theological soundness.

I don't have the time but I am making time for the moment.  I am not as at home there as I am here so I will most likely fade in and out from time to time.  I am not well received by my eastern Catholic brothers, as some of Irish Melkite's off-handed comments attest here on this forum.  They can be a nasty bunch when they put their minds to it.  These fellows here can't hold a candle to it.   :)

Mary,

I suppose that the above reference indicates thar I am of that 'nasty bunch' with my 'off-handed comments'. I'd suggest to you that a review of such would indicate that my objections are to those of your comments which, in my opinion, reflected a hostility toward Orthodoxy that appears to be at odds with the more conciliatory views that you express in your recent comments to this thread and your views (which I certainly share and for which I initially lobbied successfully in my time at CAF, but which was subsequently abandoned there) that Orthodoxy ought not to be relegated to the Non-Catholic forum at CAF.

Many years,

Neil
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on December 21, 2011, 06:25:47 AM
Mary, my last messages on CAF addressed the prohibition forbidding the Orthodox to use the word Catholic in relation to ourselves and our Church.

Post 123 in
“First Thread - New Forum”
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=196574&page=9

“There is no doubt that it *is* now difficult for us Orthodox to participate without the danger of denying our faith. For the purpose of this Forum the Moderator has made the decision that we are defined as non-Catholics and she has affirmed this decision several times.

”This puts us in a bind since at the Liturgy and at morning prayers we proclaim that we are members of the "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church."

”I am not sure how far and under what circumstances we can deny that without denying Christ and His Church. And does our participation here constitute such a denial? We need a couple of theologians (not me!) to decide on this.

”Therese, I am not questioning your right to decide the running of the Forum. That's a given. I am just wondering whether Orthodox can participate here without sinning against their own self-understanding.”

and Post 130
”The Orthodox are at sixes and sevens at the moment, and trying to discern if they have a place here. The theological determination that we are not permitted to call ourselves Catholics on the Forum has already caused consternation and I have had two messages on the topic. I referred them to their parish priests to ask him if they may continue to participate without sinning. I shall have to make the same determination in my own case.

”Apart from that (and it is the major concern) we are simply unsure what topics are within the parameters of the new Forum and which should be discussed on other Forums.”

These were my last posts at CAF.  The boom was lowered and one of the staff sent me a message saying that I was banned, and the the ban would be lifted NEVER!
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on December 21, 2011, 06:32:59 AM
Posted by Therese Martin, Administrator:

 
"You're certainly free to view yourself as an "Orthodox Catholic" if you wish. But if you are not a member of the Catholic Church, you may not refer to yourself on CAF as an "Orthodox Catholic." For purposes of clear identification, those who choose to mention their religious affiliation on CAF must not claim to be Catholic unless they are in union with the Pope."

Message 44
at
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=2935527#post2935527
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: JR on December 21, 2011, 08:10:15 AM
Posted by Therese Martin, Administrator:

 
"You're certainly free to view yourself as an "Orthodox Catholic" if you wish. But if you are not a member of the Catholic Church, you may not refer to yourself on CAF as an "Orthodox Catholic." For purposes of clear identification, those who choose to mention their religious affiliation on CAF must not claim to be Catholic unless they are in union with the Pope."

Message 44
at
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=2935527#post2935527

I was reading a post on Orthodox answers where the person asking the question stated he was Catholic, the response from the Orthodox was "don't call yourself Catholic as we are Catholic, you are Roman Catholic"  way to go for for trying to convert the Catholic to Orthodoxy, Great apologetics lol.

http://www.orthodoxanswers.org/answer/52/ (http://www.orthodoxanswers.org/answer/52/)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: primuspilus on December 21, 2011, 11:10:07 AM
Posted by Therese Martin, Administrator:

 
"You're certainly free to view yourself as an "Orthodox Catholic" if you wish. But if you are not a member of the Catholic Church, you may not refer to yourself on CAF as an "Orthodox Catholic." For purposes of clear identification, those who choose to mention their religious affiliation on CAF must not claim to be Catholic unless they are in union with the Pope."

Message 44
at
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=2935527#post2935527

I was reading a post on Orthodox answers where the person asking the question stated he was Catholic, the response from the Orthodox was "don't call yourself Catholic as we are Catholic, you are Roman Catholic"  way to go for for trying to convert the Catholic to Orthodoxy, Great apologetics lol.

http://www.orthodoxanswers.org/answer/52/ (http://www.orthodoxanswers.org/answer/52/)
Meh, sometimes the truest answer isn't always the most eloquent :)

PP
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Adela on December 21, 2011, 11:58:39 AM
Posted by Therese Martin, Administrator:

 
"You're certainly free to view yourself as an "Orthodox Catholic" if you wish. But if you are not a member of the Catholic Church, you may not refer to yourself on CAF as an "Orthodox Catholic." For purposes of clear identification, those who choose to mention their religious affiliation on CAF must not claim to be Catholic unless they are in union with the  :DPope."

Message 44
at
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=2935527#post2935527

I was reading a post on Orthodox answers where the person asking the question stated he was Catholic, the response from the Orthodox was "don't call yourself Catholic as we are Catholic, you are Roman Catholic"  way to go for for trying to convert the Catholic to Orthodoxy, Great apologetics lol.

http://www.orthodoxanswers.org/answer/52/ (http://www.orthodoxanswers.org/answer/52/)
Meh, sometimes the truest answer isn't always the most eloquent :)

PP

I remember being a kid, and thinking the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic also pertained to the pentecostal Apostolic church in my neighborhood. The one where the women couldn't cut their hair and they spoke in tongues.  So I said to the Apostolic kids, "hey, in my church we believe in your church, too!". They were quite puzzled.   But later when we got older they told me I was going to hell because I hadn't been saved.

Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: primuspilus on December 21, 2011, 12:08:20 PM
Posted by Therese Martin, Administrator:

 
"You're certainly free to view yourself as an "Orthodox Catholic" if you wish. But if you are not a member of the Catholic Church, you may not refer to yourself on CAF as an "Orthodox Catholic." For purposes of clear identification, those who choose to mention their religious affiliation on CAF must not claim to be Catholic unless they are in union with the  :DPope."

Message 44
at
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=2935527#post2935527

I was reading a post on Orthodox answers where the person asking the question stated he was Catholic, the response from the Orthodox was "don't call yourself Catholic as we are Catholic, you are Roman Catholic"  way to go for for trying to convert the Catholic to Orthodoxy, Great apologetics lol.

http://www.orthodoxanswers.org/answer/52/ (http://www.orthodoxanswers.org/answer/52/)
Meh, sometimes the truest answer isn't always the most eloquent :)

PP

I remember being a kid, and thinking the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic also pertained to the pentecostal Apostolic church in my neighborhood. The one where the women couldn't cut their hair and they spoke in tongues.  So I said to the Apostolic kids, "hey, in my church we believe in your church, too!". They were quite puzzled.   But later when we got older they told me I was going to hell because I hadn't been saved.


Yeah, theres more than a few of those around here. Even some stating that if you've not spoken in tongues you're going to hell. My mom and Step-Dad go to a tongues "church". I cant stand it.


PP
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: ialmisry on December 21, 2011, 12:18:28 PM
I just noticed that by lines like "Orthodox in communion with the Pope of Alexandria," "Orthodox in communion with the other Orthodox" etc. have been removed, while "Orthodox in communion with Rome" are still up.  And they said they banned us from using our title "Catholic" to "avoid confusion" and to stop "blurring distinctions."

Btw, we are the "Orthodox in communion with Rome."
(http://fantana.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/ps-siluan.jpg)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: ialmisry on December 21, 2011, 12:21:58 PM
Posted by Therese Martin, Administrator:

 
"You're certainly free to view yourself as an "Orthodox Catholic" if you wish. But if you are not a member of the Catholic Church, you may not refer to yourself on CAF as an "Orthodox Catholic." For purposes of clear identification, those who choose to mention their religious affiliation on CAF must not claim to be Catholic unless they are in union with the Pope."

Message 44
at
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=2935527#post2935527

I was reading a post on Orthodox answers where the person asking the question stated he was Catholic, the response from the Orthodox was "don't call yourself Catholic as we are Catholic, you are Roman Catholic"  way to go for for trying to convert the Catholic to Orthodoxy, Great apologetics lol.

http://www.orthodoxanswers.org/answer/52/ (http://www.orthodoxanswers.org/answer/52/)

I actually like his example and answer:
Quote
From an Orthodox perspective, the Church in Lisbon (taken as our example) has its own life and identity apart from the Church of Rome, although after the Gregorian reform (11th century) it is true that the Churches of West were almost absorbed by the Roman Church. When then did the (Latin/Catholic) Church in Lisbon cease being the Church or an assured manifestation of the Church? It is hard to say (some may say never) and this requires pastoral judgment when the need arises. One may say that there is only one historic, apostolic, Eucharistic community in Lisbon (the Roman Catholic one - since there is no Orthodox bishop of Lisbon). However, an Orthodox Christian would say that the theology, ecclesiology and sacramental life of the Church in Lisbon is gravely impaired and defective. (Honesty would require us to say that at times, the same can be said of Orthodox Churches, as when the people only communed once a year and when the theology was fully Westernized).
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: elijahmaria on December 21, 2011, 01:18:33 PM

I, too, find it somewhat offensive that Orthodox are considered non-Catholics, and hope and pray that your work at CAF bears good fruit.  I'm glad you have the time and energy to devote to it!

Thankee for saying so, but there are many there, Orthodox and eastern Catholic, who will make it possible in time to make changes that reflect our ecclesial realities more accurately and with theological soundness.

I don't have the time but I am making time for the moment.  I am not as at home there as I am here so I will most likely fade in and out from time to time.  I am not well received by my eastern Catholic brothers, as some of Irish Melkite's off-handed comments attest here on this forum.  They can be a nasty bunch when they put their minds to it.  These fellows here can't hold a candle to it.   :)

Mary,

I suppose that the above reference indicates thar I am of that 'nasty bunch' with my 'off-handed comments'. I'd suggest to you that a review of such would indicate that my objections are to those of your comments which, in my opinion, reflected a hostility toward Orthodoxy that appears to be at odds with the more conciliatory views that you express in your recent comments to this thread and your views (which I certainly share and for which I initially lobbied successfully in my time at CAF, but which was subsequently abandoned there) that Orthodoxy ought not to be relegated to the Non-Catholic forum at CAF.

Many years,

Neil

You have always presumed a great deal more than you should have.  And have never displayed the real courage that it would have taken to actually talk to me personally and find out who I am and what I think and why I do what I do.

Blessings.

Mary
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Wyatt on December 21, 2011, 03:48:21 PM
I just noticed that by lines like "Orthodox in communion with the Pope of Alexandria," "Orthodox in communion with the other Orthodox" etc. have been removed, while "Orthodox in communion with Rome" are still up.  And they said they banned us from using our title "Catholic" to "avoid confusion" and to stop "blurring distinctions."

Btw, we are the "Orthodox in communion with Rome."
(http://fantana.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/ps-siluan.jpg)
That is not the Bishop of Rome.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cavaradossi on December 21, 2011, 06:05:24 PM
I just noticed that by lines like "Orthodox in communion with the Pope of Alexandria," "Orthodox in communion with the other Orthodox" etc. have been removed, while "Orthodox in communion with Rome" are still up.  And they said they banned us from using our title "Catholic" to "avoid confusion" and to stop "blurring distinctions."

Btw, we are the "Orthodox in communion with Rome."
(http://fantana.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/ps-siluan.jpg)
That is not the Bishop of Rome.
One man's not-bishop is another man's canonical bishop.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: podkarpatska on December 21, 2011, 06:53:13 PM
^I wonder if this poor fellow even knows his picture rather predictably gets knocked around here like a ping pong ball when the going gets silly. And I seriously doubt, although I have no basis whatsoever to have this opinion, that in any way he fashions himself as the 'Pope of Rome  and successor to St. Peter', thereby filling a long vacant see as an Orthodox bishop. As previously stated, he is an Orthodox Bishop in Rome, in Italy ministering to the Orthodox Christians in his charge.

To some of our Roman Catholic apologists here I would remind them of two things: above all this is an Orthodox Christian forum and unlike the CAF you don't get banished from here into the never-never vaporous lands of the 'ethernet' worlds for self-identifying yourself as "Catholic", "Roman Catholic" or whatever. Nor do any of us who give you the courtesy of referring to you and your co-religionists as 'Catholics' or 'Roman Catholics' receive any moderations or warnings from our mods.

Let's face reality here. We both refer to, and believe that each's particular Church is the 'One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church' in our theology and our practice. At the present time (newsflash!!!!! -stop the presses....this happened in 1054 AD after all!) the Orthodox do not believe your church to be that 'One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church' and you don't believe that we are such. Wow! How many of us don't know that to the extent that we have to hammer it over and over again.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: elijahmaria on December 21, 2011, 06:57:42 PM
^I wonder if this poor fellow even knows his picture rather predictably gets knocked around here like a ping pong ball when the going gets silly. And I seriously doubt, although I have no basis whatsoever to have this opinion, that in any way he fashions himself as the 'Pope of Rome  and successor to St. Peter', thereby filling a long vacant see as an Orthodox bishop. As previously stated, he is an Orthodox Bishop in Rome, in Italy ministering to the Orthodox Christians in his charge.

To some of our Roman Catholic apologists here I would remind them of two things: above all this is an Orthodox Christian forum and unlike the CAF you don't get banished from here into the never-never vaporous lands of the 'ethernet' worlds for self-identifying yourself as "Catholic", "Roman Catholic" or whatever. Nor do any of us who give you the courtesy of referring to you and your co-religionists as 'Catholics' or 'Roman Catholics' receive any moderations or warnings from our mods.

Let's face reality here. We both refer to, and believe that each's particular Church is the 'One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church' in our theology and our practice. At the present time (newsflash!!!!! -stop the presses....this happened in 1054 AD after all!) the Orthodox do not believe your church to be that 'One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church' and you don't believe that we are such. Wow! How many of us don't know that to the extent that we have to hammer it over and over again.

But we are taught that Orthodoxy is one, holy, catholic and apostolic.  

That lesson may not stick with many but it sticks with enough for the time being.  

Your lecture is not out of line of course but you keep repeating that we do not see you as one, holy, catholic and apostolic and that is simply not true.

You'll remember that you are welcomed to our chalice in a Church where there is no "open" chalice.

Rather than seeing that as a good thing, the offer is handed back...generally with a sneer and a reminder that we are not welcome at your chalice.

So next time, please keep that in mind when you lecture about how we see one another.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: WetCatechumen on December 21, 2011, 08:08:51 PM
I just noticed that by lines like "Orthodox in communion with the Pope of Alexandria," "Orthodox in communion with the other Orthodox" etc. have been removed, while "Orthodox in communion with Rome" are still up.  And they said they banned us from using our title "Catholic" to "avoid confusion" and to stop "blurring distinctions."

Btw, we are the "Orthodox in communion with Rome."
(http://fantana.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/ps-siluan.jpg)
That is not the Bishop of Rome.
Yeah! It's Liam Neeson!
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on December 21, 2011, 08:10:38 PM

You'll remember that you are welcomed to our chalice in a Church where there is no "open" chalice.

Rather than seeing that as a good thing, the offer is handed back...generally with a sneer and a reminder that we are not welcome at your chalice. So next time, please keep that in mind when you lecture about how we see one another.



Your exposure to Orthodoxy is horribly limited if it causes you to say such things.

Generally speaking the Orthodox are rather apologetic on the occasions when they have to tell Catholics that we do not commune any but Orthodox.

Priests having to say something to Catholics who unexpectedly present themselves at the chalice will usually say something along the lines of "We're not in communion. I'm sorry."  or "Our bishops are not in communion and we are not allowed lo be either."  It is NEVER done with a sneer.  You should not claim that!
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: WetCatechumen on December 21, 2011, 08:18:07 PM

You'll remember that you are welcomed to our chalice in a Church where there is no "open" chalice.

Rather than seeing that as a good thing, the offer is handed back...generally with a sneer and a reminder that we are not welcome at your chalice. So next time, please keep that in mind when you lecture about how we see one another.



Your exposure to Orthodoxy is horribly limited if it causes you to say such things.

Generally speaking the Orthodox are rather apologetic on the occasions when they have to tell Catholics that we do not commune any but Orthodox.

Priests having to say something to Catholics who unexpectedly present themselves at the chalice will usually say something along the lines of "We're not in communion. I'm sorry."  or "Our bishops are not in communion and we are not allowed lo be either."  It is NEVER done with a sneer.  You should not claim that!
I have never presented myself for communion at an Orthodox church. However, the distaste, when it is revealed I am Catholic, is obvious - from laypersons. Of the handful of Orthodox clergy I have met, none of them have made me feel as if I were unwelcome or demeaned.

I do admit, I have come up to kiss the chalice and receive a blessing (a practice which was taught to me at an OCA church the first time I visited, while I was a Roman Catholic catechumen). On occasion, I have come forward to kiss the chalice and the priest has attempted to commune me before I can tell him I am not Orthodox.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cavaradossi on December 21, 2011, 08:30:09 PM

You'll remember that you are welcomed to our chalice in a Church where there is no "open" chalice.

Rather than seeing that as a good thing, the offer is handed back...generally with a sneer and a reminder that we are not welcome at your chalice. So next time, please keep that in mind when you lecture about how we see one another.



Your exposure to Orthodoxy is horribly limited if it causes you to say such things.

Generally speaking the Orthodox are rather apologetic on the occasions when they have to tell Catholics that we do not commune any but Orthodox.

Priests having to say something to Catholics who unexpectedly present themselves at the chalice will usually say something along the lines of "We're not in communion. I'm sorry."  or "Our bishops are not in communion and we are not allowed lo be either."  It is NEVER done with a sneer.  You should not claim that!
I have never presented myself for communion at an Orthodox church. However, the distaste, when it is revealed I am Catholic, is obvious - from laypersons. Of the handful of Orthodox clergy I have met, none of them have made me feel as if I were unwelcome or demeaned.

I do admit, I have come up to kiss the chalice and receive a blessing (a practice which was taught to me at an OCA church the first time I visited, while I was a Roman Catholic catechumen). On occasion, I have come forward to kiss the chalice and the priest has attempted to commune me before I can tell him I am not Orthodox.

Funny, most of the lay-people I know have treated my Catholic friends well. Again, perhaps that is because yiayias, despite their love of pews and organs (the musical kind), have a better grasp on reality than most.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: WetCatechumen on December 21, 2011, 08:39:32 PM

You'll remember that you are welcomed to our chalice in a Church where there is no "open" chalice.

Rather than seeing that as a good thing, the offer is handed back...generally with a sneer and a reminder that we are not welcome at your chalice. So next time, please keep that in mind when you lecture about how we see one another.



Your exposure to Orthodoxy is horribly limited if it causes you to say such things.

Generally speaking the Orthodox are rather apologetic on the occasions when they have to tell Catholics that we do not commune any but Orthodox.

Priests having to say something to Catholics who unexpectedly present themselves at the chalice will usually say something along the lines of "We're not in communion. I'm sorry."  or "Our bishops are not in communion and we are not allowed lo be either."  It is NEVER done with a sneer.  You should not claim that!
I have never presented myself for communion at an Orthodox church. However, the distaste, when it is revealed I am Catholic, is obvious - from laypersons. Of the handful of Orthodox clergy I have met, none of them have made me feel as if I were unwelcome or demeaned.

I do admit, I have come up to kiss the chalice and receive a blessing (a practice which was taught to me at an OCA church the first time I visited, while I was a Roman Catholic catechumen). On occasion, I have come forward to kiss the chalice and the priest has attempted to commune me before I can tell him I am not Orthodox.

Funny, most of the lay-people I know have treated my Catholic friends well. Again, perhaps that is because yiayias, despite their love of pews and organs (the musical kind), have a better grasp on reality than most.
I'm sorry! I'm not saying I was treated poorly - but the moment when people find out I am Catholic, their distaste and disappointment in my being Catholic is evident at that moment simply by their tone of voice and facial expressions, but it is not as if they sneer at continually or treat me with disdain.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cavaradossi on December 21, 2011, 09:16:09 PM

You'll remember that you are welcomed to our chalice in a Church where there is no "open" chalice.

Rather than seeing that as a good thing, the offer is handed back...generally with a sneer and a reminder that we are not welcome at your chalice. So next time, please keep that in mind when you lecture about how we see one another.



Your exposure to Orthodoxy is horribly limited if it causes you to say such things.

Generally speaking the Orthodox are rather apologetic on the occasions when they have to tell Catholics that we do not commune any but Orthodox.

Priests having to say something to Catholics who unexpectedly present themselves at the chalice will usually say something along the lines of "We're not in communion. I'm sorry."  or "Our bishops are not in communion and we are not allowed lo be either."  It is NEVER done with a sneer.  You should not claim that!
I have never presented myself for communion at an Orthodox church. However, the distaste, when it is revealed I am Catholic, is obvious - from laypersons. Of the handful of Orthodox clergy I have met, none of them have made me feel as if I were unwelcome or demeaned.

I do admit, I have come up to kiss the chalice and receive a blessing (a practice which was taught to me at an OCA church the first time I visited, while I was a Roman Catholic catechumen). On occasion, I have come forward to kiss the chalice and the priest has attempted to commune me before I can tell him I am not Orthodox.

Funny, most of the lay-people I know have treated my Catholic friends well. Again, perhaps that is because yiayias, despite their love of pews and organs (the musical kind), have a better grasp on reality than most.
I'm sorry! I'm not saying I was treated poorly - but the moment when people find out I am Catholic, their distaste and disappointment in my being Catholic is evident at that moment simply by their tone of voice and facial expressions, but it is not as if they sneer at continually or treat me with disdain.
It could just be that they don't really know what to say. They may not run into Catholic (or any other kind of) visitors very often. In my parish, we're currently working on welcoming visitors better, simply because it's not a situation that many of the parishioners are used to (as opposed to the priests, who have presumably talked to more visitors than any of the parishioners). I don't doubt your experiences, as I have encountered similar responses from all manner of groups when visiting as an outsider.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: podkarpatska on December 21, 2011, 10:13:41 PM
^I wonder if this poor fellow even knows his picture rather predictably gets knocked around here like a ping pong ball when the going gets silly. And I seriously doubt, although I have no basis whatsoever to have this opinion, that in any way he fashions himself as the 'Pope of Rome  and successor to St. Peter', thereby filling a long vacant see as an Orthodox bishop. As previously stated, he is an Orthodox Bishop in Rome, in Italy ministering to the Orthodox Christians in his charge.

To some of our Roman Catholic apologists here I would remind them of two things: above all this is an Orthodox Christian forum and unlike the CAF you don't get banished from here into the never-never vaporous lands of the 'ethernet' worlds for self-identifying yourself as "Catholic", "Roman Catholic" or whatever. Nor do any of us who give you the courtesy of referring to you and your co-religionists as 'Catholics' or 'Roman Catholics' receive any moderations or warnings from our mods.

Let's face reality here. We both refer to, and believe that each's particular Church is the 'One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church' in our theology and our practice. At the present time (newsflash!!!!! -stop the presses....this happened in 1054 AD after all!) the Orthodox do not believe your church to be that 'One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church' and you don't believe that we are such. Wow! How many of us don't know that to the extent that we have to hammer it over and over again.

But we are taught that Orthodoxy is one, holy, catholic and apostolic.  

That lesson may not stick with many but it sticks with enough for the time being.  

Your lecture is not out of line of course but you keep repeating that we do not see you as one, holy, catholic and apostolic and that is simply not true.

You'll remember that you are welcomed to our chalice in a Church where there is no "open" chalice.

Rather than seeing that as a good thing, the offer is handed back...generally with a sneer and a reminder that we are not welcome at your chalice.

So next time, please keep that in mind when you lecture about how we see one another.


In that my comments were not directed at you, but others, I am sorry you took offense. As you are well aware, the Orthodox position is that the resumption of communion is the final step in reunion, not an interim one while the major eccesiological and doctrinal issues remain a point of disunion. Without a unity of faith, as expressed through doctrine which we can commonly proclaim, communion would be an empty gesture from our point of view. As to 'sneers', there are plenty from both extremes.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: elijahmaria on December 21, 2011, 10:39:06 PM

You'll remember that you are welcomed to our chalice in a Church where there is no "open" chalice.

Rather than seeing that as a good thing, the offer is handed back...generally with a sneer and a reminder that we are not welcome at your chalice. So next time, please keep that in mind when you lecture about how we see one another.



Your exposure to Orthodoxy is horribly limited if it causes you to say such things.

Generally speaking the Orthodox are rather apologetic on the occasions when they have to tell Catholics that we do not commune any but Orthodox.

Priests having to say something to Catholics who unexpectedly present themselves at the chalice will usually say something along the lines of "We're not in communion. I'm sorry."  or "Our bishops are not in communion and we are not allowed lo be either."  It is NEVER done with a sneer.  You should not claim that!

I yield!!!...You are correct.  I never meant to include priests at the altar doing what they must do.

I was thinking only of verbal responses from some laity and clergy that I've encountered on the Internet. 

Pardon...

M.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: elijahmaria on December 21, 2011, 10:40:38 PM


In that my comments were not directed at you, but others, I am sorry you took offense. As you are well aware, the Orthodox position is that the resumption of communion is the final step in reunion, not an interim one while the major eccesiological and doctrinal issues remain a point of disunion. Without a unity of faith, as expressed through doctrine which we can commonly proclaim, communion would be an empty gesture from our point of view. As to 'sneers', there are plenty from both extremes.

Forgive me if I offended.  I am not offended by you!

I should not have reacted.  It was silly and a waste of energy...yours and Father Ambrose's

Please pardon.

M.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: the slave on December 22, 2011, 08:19:29 AM
I'm truly appalled :(

Here we are approaching that great Feast of the Nativity of Our Lord God and Saviour [ even if it is 13 days apart for some of us  ;) ] and I come on here and read

Quote
You'll remember that you are welcomed to our chalice in a Church where there is no "open" chalice.

Rather than seeing that as a good thing, the offer is handed back...generally with a sneer and a reminder that we are not welcome at your chalice.

The Latin Church does indeed say that Orthodox Christians may approach for Communion BUT at the same time they are also reminded that they should abide by the wishes of their own Church .

I have never ever been sneered at in an Orthodox Church [ and I've been in more than one , including a Monastery ] but have always been permitted to Kiss the Cross and Receive Antidoron . I've been welcomed warmly and never been made to feel an outcast .
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: podkarpatska on December 22, 2011, 11:07:57 AM
I'm truly appalled :(

Here we are approaching that great Feast of the Nativity of Our Lord God and Saviour [ even if it is 13 days apart for some of us  ;) ] and I come on here and read

Quote
You'll remember that you are welcomed to our chalice in a Church where there is no "open" chalice.

Rather than seeing that as a good thing, the offer is handed back...generally with a sneer and a reminder that we are not welcome at your chalice.

The Latin Church does indeed say that Orthodox Christians may approach for Communion BUT at the same time they are also reminded that they should abide by the wishes of their own Church .

I have never ever been sneered at in an Orthodox Church [ and I've been in more than one , including a Monastery ] but have always been permitted to Kiss the Cross and Receive Antidoron . I've been welcomed warmly and never been made to feel an outcast .


Thank you for your reminder that during the next few weeks all of us who follow the practice of the Eastern Church -Orthodox and Greek Catholic alike- will welcome the birth of our Saviour by proclaiming the powerful words of the prophet: God is with us! S'nami Boh! Sometimes online it is difficult to remember that proclamation.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: elijahmaria on December 22, 2011, 11:47:48 AM
I'm truly appalled :(

Here we are approaching that great Feast of the Nativity of Our Lord God and Saviour [ even if it is 13 days apart for some of us  ;) ] and I come on here and read

Quote
You'll remember that you are welcomed to our chalice in a Church where there is no "open" chalice.

Rather than seeing that as a good thing, the offer is handed back...generally with a sneer and a reminder that we are not welcome at your chalice.

The Latin Church does indeed say that Orthodox Christians may approach for Communion BUT at the same time they are also reminded that they should abide by the wishes of their own Church .

I have never ever been sneered at in an Orthodox Church [ and I've been in more than one , including a Monastery ] but have always been permitted to Kiss the Cross and Receive Antidoron . I've been welcomed warmly and never been made to feel an outcast .


I believe that mileage varies on the Internet, and forgive me for responding to those negative experiences at this time of year.

Also I am accustomed to the rebukes of my own eastern Catholic brothers...at any time of the year...for all kinds of reasons...some of them not even real. ;)

Why do you think I spend most of my time with the Orthodox?

Merry Christmas!!
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Marc1152 on December 22, 2011, 12:19:54 PM
I was just sent this new You Tube by a rather extreme "Catholic" Group which speaks to this issue of who is inside the Church. They specifically mention the Orthodox so I thought I would share it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp0RT902D-4&feature=uploademail
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: podkarpatska on December 22, 2011, 01:05:49 PM
That group certainly finds itself 'outside' of the Church of Rome, but they sure ain't looking Eastward for guidance. I guess all faiths have their own problem children!  ;)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: JR on December 22, 2011, 02:41:35 PM
Our Orthodox Brethren are truly welcome to our table, and a few times an orthodox priest has done so, I presume they are Orthodox priests dressed all in black wearing beards.

I do attend Orthodox churches quite often, but I have never tried to take part, I just watch.

I do get some strange looks, but I think that is because they know I am not Greek and that is quite rare in the smaller churches.

I wish you all a merry and most Holy Christmas.

Shalom.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: J Michael on December 22, 2011, 02:47:46 PM
Our Orthodox Brethren are truly welcome to our table, and a few times an orthodox priest has done so, I presume they are Orthodox priests dressed all in black wearing beards.

I do attend Orthodox churches quite often, but I have never tried to take part, I just watch.

I do get some strange looks, but I think that is because they know I am not Greek and that is quite rare in the smaller churches.

I wish you all a merry and most Holy Christmas.

Shalom.

Yes...A most blessed, merry, and Holy Christmas to you, too, and to *all* our Catholic and Orthodox brothers and sisters everywhere.  May we be able, out of love and charity, to put aside our differences as we are about to welcome our Savior at His Nativity. 
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on December 22, 2011, 04:11:41 PM

You'll remember that you are welcomed to our chalice in a Church where there is no "open" chalice.

Rather than seeing that as a good thing, the offer is handed back...generally with a sneer and a reminder that we are not welcome at your chalice. So next time, please keep that in mind when you lecture about how we see one another.



Your exposure to Orthodoxy is horribly limited if it causes you to say such things.

Generally speaking the Orthodox are rather apologetic on the occasions when they have to tell Catholics that we do not commune any but Orthodox.

Priests having to say something to Catholics who unexpectedly present themselves at the chalice will usually say something along the lines of "We're not in communion. I'm sorry."  or "Our bishops are not in communion and we are not allowed lo be either."  It is NEVER done with a sneer.  You should not claim that!

I yield!!!...You are correct.  I never meant to include priests at the altar doing what they must do.

I was thinking only of verbal responses from some laity and clergy that I've encountered on the Internet. 

Pardon...

M.

If I were out in the sleigh with Father Christmas I'd drop a bigf present down your chimbley.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: elijahmaria on December 22, 2011, 04:15:39 PM

You'll remember that you are welcomed to our chalice in a Church where there is no "open" chalice.

Rather than seeing that as a good thing, the offer is handed back...generally with a sneer and a reminder that we are not welcome at your chalice. So next time, please keep that in mind when you lecture about how we see one another.



Your exposure to Orthodoxy is horribly limited if it causes you to say such things.

Generally speaking the Orthodox are rather apologetic on the occasions when they have to tell Catholics that we do not commune any but Orthodox.

Priests having to say something to Catholics who unexpectedly present themselves at the chalice will usually say something along the lines of "We're not in communion. I'm sorry."  or "Our bishops are not in communion and we are not allowed lo be either."  It is NEVER done with a sneer.  You should not claim that!

I yield!!!...You are correct.  I never meant to include priests at the altar doing what they must do.

I was thinking only of verbal responses from some laity and clergy that I've encountered on the Internet. 

Pardon...

M.

If I were out in the sleigh with Father Christmas I'd drop a bigf present down your chimbley.


 :D :D :D

I luff presents!!

Thankee
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: biro on December 22, 2011, 11:38:37 PM
Our Orthodox Brethren are truly welcome to our table, and a few times an orthodox priest has done so, I presume they are Orthodox priests dressed all in black wearing beards.

I do attend Orthodox churches quite often, but I have never tried to take part, I just watch.

I do get some strange looks, but I think that is because they know I am not Greek and that is quite rare in the smaller churches.

I wish you all a merry and most Holy Christmas.

Shalom.

Yes...A most blessed, merry, and Holy Christmas to you, too, and to *all* our Catholic and Orthodox brothers and sisters everywhere.  May we be able, out of love and charity, to put aside our differences as we are about to welcome our Savior at His Nativity. 

Amen and Amen.  :angel:
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: KShaft on January 01, 2012, 09:49:38 PM
I apologize in advance for revisiting the subject of CAF - but this couldn't pass without comment ...

The EC (remember, that's 'Eastern Catholic' these days - not 'Eastern Christi0anity' as it was in our time) forum Mod has posted some new guidelines there on charitable and civil debate.

In keeping with the rules here, I won't quote her post, but the essence is that posters should think of themselves as "robots". When someone objects to something they've posted, they should run it through a decision-making chart and, having discerned the appropriate factual and non-emotional response, they should post that with "encyclopedia-like neutrality".

The narrative text is followed by debate guidelines, several of which are pretty mundane. But, my definite favorite - in keeping with the narrative that precedes the guidelines - is ... 

"Remember: your goal is to sound like an encyclopedia robot."   :o

Why didn't I think of that in my day as mod over there?  ???

The place never ceases to amaze.

Many years,

Neil

"Abolition of Man" anyone? 
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on January 01, 2012, 10:14:55 PM
Merry Christmas & Happy New Year
to the Old CAF Crowd!
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: KShaft on January 01, 2012, 10:26:36 PM
I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Oh, for Pete's sake.... ::)

Yeah that was my reaction too.

I would have just came out and said "screw the Latins". But I really like the orthodox(as much as they can be) Latins. So I wouldnt want to say that. Now those Franks who hijacked stuff, yeah, screw those guys. Popes were Orthodox up until they took over...
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: KShaft on January 01, 2012, 11:09:24 PM

Any Catholic who converts to a Church that calls us heretics may go with God,

Do Catholics not see us as heretics?   When we allow divorce and a second sacramental marriages is that not heresy in your eyes, given its theological basis?

When we allow contraception is that not heresy in your eyes, both in its theological basis and an abomination in natural law?

Etc., etc......






Under normal circumstances these are heretical or sinful. There can be no doubt.  Extreme cases may lead to understandable exceptions.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on January 02, 2012, 12:07:23 AM

Any Catholic who converts to a Church that calls us heretics may go with God,

Do Catholics not see us as heretics?   When we allow divorce and a second sacramental marriages is that not heresy in your eyes, given its theological basis?

When we allow contraception is that not heresy in your eyes, both in its theological basis and an abomination in natural law?

Etc., etc......



Under normal circumstances these are heretical or sinful. There can be no doubt. 

There can be every doubt.  I would not continue as a member of a Church which blessed heresy and sin.  Who would?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: KShaft on January 02, 2012, 12:17:27 AM

Any Catholic who converts to a Church that calls us heretics may go with God,

Do Catholics not see us as heretics?   When we allow divorce and a second sacramental marriages is that not heresy in your eyes, given its theological basis?

When we allow contraception is that not heresy in your eyes, both in its theological basis and an abomination in natural law?

Etc., etc......



Under normal circumstances these are heretical or sinful. There can be no doubt.  

There can be every doubt.  I would not continue as a member of a Church which blessed heresy and sin.  Who would?


There is not a consensus as there is in Roman Catholicism under the magisterium, but it is generally understood that those things are not to be used as an everyday fix, more of a necessary evil so to speak. Your spiritual Father being your guide to such compromises due to man's tendency to sin. Its not cut and dried but don't think that its done flippantly either.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on January 02, 2012, 12:31:58 AM

There is not a consensus as there is in Roman Catholicism under the magisterium, but it is generally understood that those things are not to be used as an everyday fix, more of a necessary evil so to speak. Your spiritual Father being your guide to such compromises due to man's tendency to sin. Its not cut and dried but don't think that its done flippantly either.

Ugh!   Necessary evil!   A weird Roman Catholic concept!   The Orthodox do, in their innocence, sometimes adopt these concepts.   God blessing sin and evil and proclaiming it as necessary?  Our bishops blessing necessary sin and evil? May it never happen!   Where's the exit door?

Got a list of necessary (permissable) evils?
Divorce?
Remarriage?
Contraception?
Homosexuality?

Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: KShaft on January 02, 2012, 12:57:33 AM

There is not a consensus as there is in Roman Catholicism under the magisterium, but it is generally understood that those things are not to be used as an everyday fix, more of a necessary evil so to speak. Your spiritual Father being your guide to such compromises due to man's tendency to sin. Its not cut and dried but don't think that its done flippantly either.

Ugh!   Necessary evil!   A weird Roman Catholic concept!   The Orthodox do, in their innocence, sometimes adopt these concepts.   God blessing sin and evil and proclaiming it as necessary?  Our bishops blessing necessary sin and evil? May it never happen!   Where's the exit door?

Got a list of necessary (permissable) evils?
Divorce?
Remarriage?
Contraception?
Homosexuality?



 What part of extreme circumstances do you not understand?  Homosexuality doesnt belong in there. Thats a perverted desire, that in even straight people can pop up. Acting on that desire is a sin. 

 Ill give you an example since you are having trouble reading between the lines.  When I was in Iraq I nearly had to shoot a guy because I thought he might have been reaching for a grenade or gun in his car. Since he didnt understand English or any way the word "Stop" or the escalation of volume in peoples voices indicating for you to stop whatever your doing in any language, he went for his ID card. I had my m249 pointing at his head finger on the trigger until he came back out of the car with his ID.  Okay now normally if I would have just shot him nilly willy, well thats a sin. I shoot him because he pulls out a grenade or gun, well that is justifiable homicide. In fact not to shoot him would be a sin because I could get myself or others killed.

If a man is beating his wife and she is in danger of being killed or is just incredibly abusive, divorce in this case is not a sin. Sad, but not a sin. Divorcing someone because she found a guy who is more attractive or has more money or whatever, well sir, that just might be a sin.

Considering the practice is nonuniform within even the church on divorce and remarriage with some saying its a no go like the Russians (who are easily the most Orthodox if you ask me) or say live and let live guys like Antiochians who say you dont even need to go to confession no matter what you do before going up for the Eucharist, and of course with them divorce and remarriage is fine.  Stuff like divorce was always a last resort. Contraception wasnt even questioned until modern times. Modernist priests now say it is okay. I dont know what else I need to say about it. This isnt about blessing sin, its about circumstance when something no longer is a sin because of the circumstance.

In the case of the marriage you do everything possible to save the marriage before you resort to the possibility of divorce. It is without a doubt a method of last resort and not to be desired.

Please stop the melodramatic outrage. Its annoying.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on January 02, 2012, 02:19:10 AM

Please stop the melodramatic outrage. Its annoying.

To say that evil can be necessary and that God blesses evil is an attack on the holiness of the Almighty.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on January 02, 2012, 02:21:59 AM

Considering the practice is nonuniform within even the church on divorce and remarriage with some saying its a no go like the Russians

KShaft, I am enjoying talking with you but the Russian Church permits divorce and remarriage.

Grounds for divorce in the Russian Church  

adultery and a new marriage of one of the parties
a spouse's falling away from Orthodoxy,
perversion,
impotence which had set in before marriage or was self-inflicted,
contraction of leprosy or syphilis,
prolonged disappearance,
conviction with disfranchisement,
encroachment on the life or health of the spouse,
love affair with a daughter in law,
profiting from marriage,
profiting by the spouse's indecencies,
incurable mental disease,
malevolent abandonment of the spouse,
chronic alcoholism or drug-addiction,
abortion without the husband's consent. 

See the 2000 Synodal document
"BASES OF THE SOCIAL CONCEPT
OF THE RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH"
http://3saints.com/ustav_mp_russ_english.html
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cavaradossi on January 02, 2012, 02:27:09 AM

Please stop the melodramatic outrage. Its annoying.

To say that evil can be necessary and that God blesses evil is an attack on the holiness of the Almighty.

Would you say that an action which could be evil under one circumstance is excusable (or even proper) under another? I'm not so sure what your disagreement with the phrase necessary evil is.

Also, do you happen to know why love affair with a daughter in law is listed separately from adultery on that list of reasons for divorce?  I've seen that before but always found it baffling.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: KShaft on January 02, 2012, 02:40:00 AM

Considering the practice is nonuniform within even the church on divorce and remarriage with some saying its a no go like the Russians

KShaft, I am enjoying talking with you but the Russian Church permits divorce and remarriage.

Ill have to talk with my parish priest about that.  


"Divorce does not heal the diseased marriage but kills it. It is not a positive action or intervention. It is about dissolving the “mini-Church” that has been formed through the marriage relationship.[18] The Holy Scripture attributes divorce to the callousness of man.[19] This is seen as a fall and sin."

"According to Bishop Kallistos Ware divorce is an action of “economia” and “expression of compassion” of the Church toward sinful man. “Since Christ, according to the Matthaean account, allowed an exception to His general ruling about the indissolubility of marriage, the Orthodox Church also is willing to allow an exception”.  Once again it is not something regular but an "exception."

“then the bond that was originally considered indissoluble is already dissolved and the law can offer nothing to replace grace and can neither heal nor resurrect, nor say: ‘Stand up and go’” IOW the church doesnt really do the divorce, the actions of the individuals involved cease to be married."

"Nevertheless, the Orthodox Church sees divorce as a tragedy due to human weakness and sin."

taken from the orthodoxresearchinstitue.org

Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on January 02, 2012, 02:44:47 AM
Would you say that an action which could be evil under one circumstance is excusable (or even proper) under another

Yes.   If you or I take a man down into the basement, tie him to a chair and then fill him with enough electricity to kill him that is evil.

When the State does the same in a prison it is not evil and it is blessed by the bishops.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on January 02, 2012, 02:46:45 AM
I'm not so sure what your disagreement with the phrase necessary evil is.


Would someone say more on the concept of "necessary evil." I do not believe that this is a part of the Orthodox faith. Does it originate in some Western concept?

If war is a "NECESSARY" evil than the notion of moral freedom is quite absent and that sort of moral determinism which involves unavoidable sin and evil is a bit frightening. It entails a voluntary association with and a surrendering to the source of evil, the Devil. I doubt if there can be a patristic base for such a concept.

Orthodox bishops have always blessed the soldiers and their weapons before sending them out to make war. If this were an evil, whether necessary or unnecessary, could the ordained servants of the Most High participate in it and even bestow the Lord's blessing on it? Can God bless evil?

Are there any other "necessary evils"? What about abortion? euthanasia? Or is war the only "necessary evil" that we know? Can anything like a "necessary evil" have a valid place in moral theology?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on January 02, 2012, 02:57:43 AM

Also, do you happen to know why love affair with a daughter in law is listed separately from adultery on that list of reasons for divorce?  I've seen that before but always found it baffling.

Sorry, I do not know the answer to that.  Maybe another forum member does?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on January 02, 2012, 06:15:29 AM

“then the bond that was originally considered indissoluble is already dissolved and the law can offer nothing to replace grace and can neither heal nor resurrect, nor say: ‘Stand up and go’” IOW the church doesnt really do the divorce, the actions of the individuals involved cease to be married."

Just as the Church acting in the Name of God creates a marriage with the Crowning and Blessing by a priest so too the Church through a Bishop acts in the Name of God in dissolving a marriage and giving a divorce because nothing which the Church does is not in accordance with the Will of God.

Yes, the Church is acting, as you say,  pursuant to the tragedy of a loss of love between a man and a woman but until the Church decides to issue a divorce the man and woman remain married.   The divorce becomes actual only when the Church says so.  If the Church does not grant a divorce the couple remain, technically and in the eyes of the Church, married and neither of them may remarry.  Perhaps not an aspect which people often consider but it is reality nonetheless.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Shiny on January 02, 2012, 11:24:16 AM
I'm not so sure what your disagreement with the phrase necessary evil is.


Would someone say more on the concept of "necessary evil." I do not believe that this is a part of the Orthodox faith. Does it originate in some Western concept?

If war is a "NECESSARY" evil than the notion of moral freedom is quite absent and that sort of moral determinism which involves unavoidable sin and evil is a bit frightening. It entails a voluntary association with and a surrendering to the source of evil, the Devil. I doubt if there can be a patristic base for such a concept.

Orthodox bishops have always blessed the soldiers and their weapons before sending them out to make war. If this were an evil, whether necessary or unnecessary, could the ordained servants of the Most High participate in it and even bestow the Lord's blessing on it? Can God bless evil?

Are there any other "necessary evils"? What about abortion? euthanasia? Or is war the only "necessary evil" that we know? Can anything like a "necessary evil" have a valid place in moral theology?


Amen!! Bless Father!
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: podkarpatska on January 02, 2012, 11:54:02 AM
I'm not so sure what your disagreement with the phrase necessary evil is.


Would someone say more on the concept of "necessary evil." I do not believe that this is a part of the Orthodox faith. Does it originate in some Western concept?

If war is a "NECESSARY" evil than the notion of moral freedom is quite absent and that sort of moral determinism which involves unavoidable sin and evil is a bit frightening. It entails a voluntary association with and a surrendering to the source of evil, the Devil. I doubt if there can be a patristic base for such a concept.

Orthodox bishops have always blessed the soldiers and their weapons before sending them out to make war. If this were an evil, whether necessary or unnecessary, could the ordained servants of the Most High participate in it and even bestow the Lord's blessing on it? Can God bless evil?

Are there any other "necessary evils"? What about abortion? euthanasia? Or is war the only "necessary evil" that we know? Can anything like a "necessary evil" have a valid place in moral theology?


Well, I'll five it a go.  I agree that there are no 'necessary evils' as a categorical statement.

However - since we live in an imperfect realm in our earthly existence and we, as human beings, are imperfect at the present time, we are faced with choices in life and we all confront situations which are sometimes crystal clear in terms of our moral obligations and other times - certainly less than clear. Perhaps such situations may better be described as 'lessor evils'? (Perhaps 'evil' is the wrong word.) Being given the gift of free will we have to make choices. Kshaft chose not to shoot the Iragi - yet, in his example another soldier might have done do. Either action - holding a gun to an innocent man's head and filling him with terror as a result or shooting him - whether mortally or not - had its own set of moral consequences and imparted the lives of each of the actors.  I would argue that if both soldiers were Orthodox, each should be troubled by what occurred and each would need to reconcile these feelings with his priest. Sinful or not? I can not say - but the issue should be between the faithful and God - by means of the priest.

Evil is evil - however, moral choices have to be made by all of us as we confront evil in our lives. Some choices are easy as no alternative is presented. We need the teachings of our Church to guide us through the moral minefield life presents.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: elijahmaria on January 02, 2012, 11:58:43 AM

There is not a consensus as there is in Roman Catholicism under the magisterium, but it is generally understood that those things are not to be used as an everyday fix, more of a necessary evil so to speak. Your spiritual Father being your guide to such compromises due to man's tendency to sin. Its not cut and dried but don't think that its done flippantly either.

Ugh!   Necessary evil!   A weird Roman Catholic concept!   The Orthodox do, in their innocence, sometimes adopt these concepts.   God blessing sin and evil and proclaiming it as necessary?  Our bishops blessing necessary sin and evil? May it never happen!   Where's the exit door?

Got a list of necessary (permissable) evils?
Divorce?
Remarriage?
Contraception?
Homosexuality?



 What part of extreme circumstances do you not understand?  Homosexuality doesnt belong in there. Thats a perverted desire, that in even straight people can pop up. Acting on that desire is a sin. 



The problem that I find in Orthodoxy when talking about sin is that there is no distinction made between objective evils and sin guilt.  There are no mitigating circumstances that one can speak of in terms of things which, without those circumstances in place, are indeed evil.

Also I have never seen a good definition of evil from any Internet Orthodox venue.  That is not to say there is not one but there is not one that I have ever seen.

If it is evil it is sinful...black and white.

That results in the assertion that things proscribed by Christ are allowed by the Church and called "Good"...

I think that is not helpful in terms of a systematic moral theology...in other words, a coherent logic.

M.

Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: ialmisry on January 02, 2012, 12:16:06 PM

There is not a consensus as there is in Roman Catholicism under the magisterium, but it is generally understood that those things are not to be used as an everyday fix, more of a necessary evil so to speak. Your spiritual Father being your guide to such compromises due to man's tendency to sin. Its not cut and dried but don't think that its done flippantly either.

Ugh!   Necessary evil!   A weird Roman Catholic concept!   The Orthodox do, in their innocence, sometimes adopt these concepts.   God blessing sin and evil and proclaiming it as necessary?  Our bishops blessing necessary sin and evil? May it never happen!   Where's the exit door?

Got a list of necessary (permissable) evils?
Divorce?
Remarriage?
Contraception?
Homosexuality?



 What part of extreme circumstances do you not understand?  Homosexuality doesnt belong in there. Thats a perverted desire, that in even straight people can pop up. Acting on that desire is a sin. 

 Ill give you an example since you are having trouble reading between the lines.  When I was in Iraq I nearly had to shoot a guy because I thought he might have been reaching for a grenade or gun in his car. Since he didnt understand English or any way the word "Stop" or the escalation of volume in peoples voices indicating for you to stop whatever your doing in any language, he went for his ID card. I had my m249 pointing at his head finger on the trigger until he came back out of the car with his ID.  Okay now normally if I would have just shot him nilly willy, well thats a sin. I shoot him because he pulls out a grenade or gun, well that is justifiable homicide. In fact not to shoot him would be a sin because I could get myself or others killed.

If a man is beating his wife and she is in danger of being killed or is just incredibly abusive, divorce in this case is not a sin. Sad, but not a sin. Divorcing someone because she found a guy who is more attractive or has more money or whatever, well sir, that just might be a sin.

Considering the practice is nonuniform within even the church on divorce and remarriage with some saying its a no go like the Russians (who are easily the most Orthodox if you ask me) or say live and let live guys like Antiochians who say you dont even need to go to confession no matter what you do before going up for the Eucharist, and of course with them divorce and remarriage is fine. 
Not sure what you mean "divorce and remarriage is fine" for the Antiochians.  Earlier this decade the Archdiocese reaffirmed, for instance, that if a marriage involves a remarriage of one of the parties, the priest must first ascertain if the new proposed marriage is an affair during the old one, in which case no marriage can take place.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: KShaft on January 02, 2012, 12:33:13 PM

You'll remember that you are welcomed to our chalice in a Church where there is no "open" chalice.

Rather than seeing that as a good thing, the offer is handed back...generally with a sneer and a reminder that we are not welcome at your chalice. So next time, please keep that in mind when you lecture about how we see one another.



Your exposure to Orthodoxy is horribly limited if it causes you to say such things.

Generally speaking the Orthodox are rather apologetic on the occasions when they have to tell Catholics that we do not commune any but Orthodox.

Priests having to say something to Catholics who unexpectedly present themselves at the chalice will usually say something along the lines of "We're not in communion. I'm sorry."  or "Our bishops are not in communion and we are not allowed lo be either."  It is NEVER done with a sneer.  You should not claim that!
I have never presented myself for communion at an Orthodox church. However, the distaste, when it is revealed I am Catholic, is obvious - from laypersons. Of the handful of Orthodox clergy I have met, none of them have made me feel as if I were unwelcome or demeaned.

I do admit, I have come up to kiss the chalice and receive a blessing (a practice which was taught to me at an OCA church the first time I visited, while I was a Roman Catholic catechumen). On occasion, I have come forward to kiss the chalice and the priest has attempted to commune me before I can tell him I am not Orthodox.

 Ive never had this experience EVER and Ive been to every Orthodox church nearly every Orthodox church around including the ROCOR and Serbian parish.  I think youre dealing with former evangelical converts who just cant seem to differentiate Catholic laity who love the ancient western Church, and Franks who turned the Church into a secular political arm, doing so sometimes deviating from Orthodoxy. All the while never admitting how moronic they were before for hating all the 'Roman' inventions such as the Eucharist and the other sacraments.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: KShaft on January 02, 2012, 12:46:44 PM

There is not a consensus as there is in Roman Catholicism under the magisterium, but it is generally understood that those things are not to be used as an everyday fix, more of a necessary evil so to speak. Your spiritual Father being your guide to such compromises due to man's tendency to sin. Its not cut and dried but don't think that its done flippantly either.

Ugh!   Necessary evil!   A weird Roman Catholic concept!   The Orthodox do, in their innocence, sometimes adopt these concepts.   God blessing sin and evil and proclaiming it as necessary?  Our bishops blessing necessary sin and evil? May it never happen!   Where's the exit door?

Got a list of necessary (permissable) evils?
Divorce?
Remarriage?
Contraception?
Homosexuality?



 What part of extreme circumstances do you not understand?  Homosexuality doesnt belong in there. Thats a perverted desire, that in even straight people can pop up. Acting on that desire is a sin. 

 Ill give you an example since you are having trouble reading between the lines.  When I was in Iraq I nearly had to shoot a guy because I thought he might have been reaching for a grenade or gun in his car. Since he didnt understand English or any way the word "Stop" or the escalation of volume in peoples voices indicating for you to stop whatever your doing in any language, he went for his ID card. I had my m249 pointing at his head finger on the trigger until he came back out of the car with his ID.  Okay now normally if I would have just shot him nilly willy, well thats a sin. I shoot him because he pulls out a grenade or gun, well that is justifiable homicide. In fact not to shoot him would be a sin because I could get myself or others killed.

If a man is beating his wife and she is in danger of being killed or is just incredibly abusive, divorce in this case is not a sin. Sad, but not a sin. Divorcing someone because she found a guy who is more attractive or has more money or whatever, well sir, that just might be a sin.

Considering the practice is nonuniform within even the church on divorce and remarriage with some saying its a no go like the Russians (who are easily the most Orthodox if you ask me) or say live and let live guys like Antiochians who say you dont even need to go to confession no matter what you do before going up for the Eucharist, and of course with them divorce and remarriage is fine. 
Not sure what you mean "divorce and remarriage is fine" for the Antiochians.  Earlier this decade the Archdiocese reaffirmed, for instance, that if a marriage involves a remarriage of one of the parties, the priest must first ascertain if the new proposed marriage is an affair during the old one, in which case no marriage can take place.

 Little scrutiny into divorce and remarriage would be what I meant.  Ive heard from many sources that the Antiochian parishes are quite liberal about many things including confession, the Eucharist, and divorce.  Perhaps these sources were incorrect. This isnt stuff Im typically overly concerned with as I always make sure I go to confession/ absolution before going up for the Chalice, and at the OCA parish I typically attend this is always available both during Vespers and during Hours before Liturgy. I know there are spots in the Bible that are not meant to be taken literally, but when Christ says something in a direct manner such as his quote on marriage one should think of it as something to be taken literally in most cases excepting extremes which was probably understood. He was I think answering the willy-nilly divorcing of persons over little things, which didnt happen (I would guess) in the more orthodox households anyway.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: J Michael on January 02, 2012, 02:08:19 PM

There is not a consensus as there is in Roman Catholicism under the magisterium, but it is generally understood that those things are not to be used as an everyday fix, more of a necessary evil so to speak. Your spiritual Father being your guide to such compromises due to man's tendency to sin. Its not cut and dried but don't think that its done flippantly either.

Ugh!   Necessary evil!   A weird Roman Catholic concept!   The Orthodox do, in their innocence, sometimes adopt these concepts.   God blessing sin and evil and proclaiming it as necessary?  Our bishops blessing necessary sin and evil? May it never happen!   Where's the exit door?

Got a list of necessary (permissable) evils?
Divorce?
Remarriage?
Contraception?
Homosexuality?




Considering the practice is nonuniform within even the church on divorce and remarriage with some saying its a no go like the Russians (who are easily the most Orthodox if you ask me) or say live and let live guys like Antiochians who say you dont even need to go to confession no matter what you do before going up for the Eucharist, and of course with them divorce and remarriage is fine. 

Your assertion, which I've highlighted in red, is pure...... nonsense!  Wherever did you come up with that??  I was in an Antiochian parish for over 4 years and neither of those attitudes was **ever** expressed.  Ever.  The Antiochians have plenty of other issues, but not those which you accuse them of here.  I think you'd better check your facts.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cavaradossi on January 02, 2012, 02:14:11 PM
I'm not so sure what your disagreement with the phrase necessary evil is.


Would someone say more on the concept of "necessary evil." I do not believe that this is a part of the Orthodox faith. Does it originate in some Western concept?

If war is a "NECESSARY" evil than the notion of moral freedom is quite absent and that sort of moral determinism which involves unavoidable sin and evil is a bit frightening. It entails a voluntary association with and a surrendering to the source of evil, the Devil. I doubt if there can be a patristic base for such a concept.

Orthodox bishops have always blessed the soldiers and their weapons before sending them out to make war. If this were an evil, whether necessary or unnecessary, could the ordained servants of the Most High participate in it and even bestow the Lord's blessing on it? Can God bless evil?

Are there any other "necessary evils"? What about abortion? euthanasia? Or is war the only "necessary evil" that we know? Can anything like a "necessary evil" have a valid place in moral theology?


If I recall, St. John Chrysostom gives the example of slavery. If a man owns slaves, that is definitely not right (I think he calls it an abomination or some other strong word). Yet given the circumstance that he owns a slave, it might be better that he keep him under his care than liberate him into a life of destitute poverty. I this is more of a lesser of two evils concept, but it's definitely an example of a moral dilemma, where no choice is really right except in the sense that one will do the least harm.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Asteriktos on January 02, 2012, 02:25:19 PM
If I recall, St. John Chrysostom gives the example of slavery. If a man owns slaves, that is definitely not right (I think he calls it an abomination or some other strong word). Yet given the circumstance that he owns a slave, it might be better that he keep him under his care than liberate him into a life of destitute poverty. I this is more of a lesser of two evils concept, but it's definitely an example of a moral dilemma, where no choice is really right except in the sense that one will do the least harm.

I think there's lots of support for the concept of lesser and greater evils in the Fathers. The question, I think, is whether we could call a sin necessary? I think possibly so, based partially on James 4:17: "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." If we know it would be better to commit one sin so as to avoid a more serious or harmful sin*, then it is in some sense our moral duty--a necessary act, if we want to do the right thing--to commit the lesser sin. I think this is what Father is getting at, though, whether we can consider it necessary.

*For example, doing what Rahab did, and hide Joshua and his men so as to help them avoid capture, but lying and using deception while they hid.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: J Michael on January 02, 2012, 02:40:20 PM

There is not a consensus as there is in Roman Catholicism under the magisterium, but it is generally understood that those things are not to be used as an everyday fix, more of a necessary evil so to speak. Your spiritual Father being your guide to such compromises due to man's tendency to sin. Its not cut and dried but don't think that its done flippantly either.

Ugh!   Necessary evil!   A weird Roman Catholic concept!   The Orthodox do, in their innocence, sometimes adopt these concepts.   God blessing sin and evil and proclaiming it as necessary?  Our bishops blessing necessary sin and evil? May it never happen!   Where's the exit door?

Got a list of necessary (permissable) evils?
Divorce?
Remarriage?
Contraception?
Homosexuality?



While I *think* I'm pretty much on the same page with you about most of this, why do you say that "necessary evil" is specifically a Roman Catholic concept?  I'm not trying to start a fight, just looking to fill another gap in my education.  Maybe I've come across this elsewhere and hadn't connected the concept with being Roman Catholic in origin.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: biro on January 02, 2012, 03:18:21 PM
It isn't specifically Roman Catholic. It's a figure of speech. He just likes to be that way.  ::)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: J Michael on January 02, 2012, 03:21:18 PM
It isn't specifically Roman Catholic.
I hope you're right.

 
It's a figure of speech. He just likes to be that way.  ::)
I hope you're wrong.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: biro on January 02, 2012, 03:31:51 PM
I find it really funny that Irish Hermit threw in "remarriage" as one of the things he's making fun of you about, when it's the Orthodox Church that permits divorce and up to three marriages in the Church, not the Roman Catholics.  ::)

Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: J Michael on January 02, 2012, 03:44:33 PM
I find it really funny that Irish Hermit threw in "remarriage" as one of the things he's making fun of you about, when it's the Orthodox Church that permits divorce and up to three marriages in the Church, not the Roman Catholics.  ::)



Hey, nobody's perfect  ;D!
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on January 02, 2012, 04:18:31 PM
While I *think* I'm pretty much on the same page with you about most of this, why do you say that "necessary evil" is specifically a Roman Catholic concept? 

Because I typically come across it and the attempt to explain its legitimacy in Roman Catholic works.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on January 02, 2012, 04:20:37 PM
I find it really funny that Irish Hermit threw in "remarriage" as one of the things he's making fun of you about, when it's the Orthodox Church that permits divorce and up to three marriages in the Church, not the Roman Catholics.  ::)



I did not throw it in.  KShaft raised these issues, starting in message 199.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: J Michael on January 02, 2012, 04:23:07 PM
While I *think* I'm pretty much on the same page with you about most of this, why do you say that "necessary evil" is specifically a Roman Catholic concept? 

Because I typically come across it and the attempt to explain its legitimacy in Roman Catholic works.

1.  Does that make it "Roman Catholic"?
2.  Can you cite some references or links?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on January 02, 2012, 05:17:06 PM
While I *think* I'm pretty much on the same page with you about most of this, why do you say that "necessary evil" is specifically a Roman Catholic concept?

Because I typically come across it and the attempt to explain its legitimacy in Roman Catholic works.

1.  Does that make it "Roman Catholic"?
2.  Can you cite some references or links?

The Orthodox understanding of a necessary evil....  :laugh:

"Conquest by Western Roman Catholic powers would likely mean forcible conversion to the Catholic faith, while conquest by the Muslim Ottoman Empire would mean second-class citizenship but would at least allow Orthodox Christians to retain their current religion."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesser_of_two_evils_principle

So conquest by Muslims was seen as a lesser evil.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on January 02, 2012, 05:29:47 PM
While I *think* I'm pretty much on the same page with you about most of this, why do you say that "necessary evil" is specifically a Roman Catholic concept? 

Because I typically come across it and the attempt to explain its legitimacy in Roman Catholic works.

1.  Does that make it "Roman Catholic"?
2.  Can you cite some references or links?

The concept of necessary evil is usually linked with the choice between two evils.  I am reluctant to say more since there may be Roman Catholics here who will prefer to address their Church's teaching.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: J Michael on January 02, 2012, 08:03:09 PM
While I *think* I'm pretty much on the same page with you about most of this, why do you say that "necessary evil" is specifically a Roman Catholic concept? 

Because I typically come across it and the attempt to explain its legitimacy in Roman Catholic works.

1.  Does that make it "Roman Catholic"?
2.  Can you cite some references or links?

The concept of necessary evil is usually linked with the choice between two evils.  I am reluctant to say more since there may be Roman Catholics here who will prefer to address their Church's teaching.

I appreciate your reluctance and willingness to defer to Roman Catholics on that teaching--if indeed there is an "official" teaching on "necessary" evil.  However, you haven't really answered either of my questions, of which I have another for you--If, God forbid, one is put in the position of having to choose between two evils, does that make one of them, probably the one chosen, "necessary", at least in the sense that I think we're talking about it here?  Or does it just make it the "lesser" of the two, which one has unfortunately been forced to choose?  I hope you see the distinction I'm trying to make  ;).
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on January 02, 2012, 08:08:59 PM
While I *think* I'm pretty much on the same page with you about most of this, why do you say that "necessary evil" is specifically a Roman Catholic concept? 

Because I typically come across it and the attempt to explain its legitimacy in Roman Catholic works.

1.  Does that make it "Roman Catholic
"?

I believe the Roman Catholic Church is credited with the establishment of the principle of the lesser of two evils.  The concept of necessary evil is a corollary.

Quote
2.  Can you cite some references or links?

I do not have anything bookmarked.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on January 02, 2012, 08:12:10 PM
While I *think* I'm pretty much on the same page with you about most of this, why do you say that "necessary evil" is specifically a Roman Catholic concept? 

Because I typically come across it and the attempt to explain its legitimacy in Roman Catholic works.

1.  Does that make it "Roman Catholic"?
2.  Can you cite some references or links?

The concept of necessary evil is usually linked with the choice between two evils.  I am reluctant to say more since there may be Roman Catholics here who will prefer to address their Church's teaching.

I appreciate your reluctance and willingness to defer to Roman Catholics on that teaching--if indeed there is an "official" teaching on "necessary" evil.  However, you haven't really answered either of my questions, of which I have another for you--If, God forbid, one is put in the position of having to choose between two evils, does that make one of them, probably the one chosen, "necessary", at least in the sense that I think we're talking about it here?  Or does it just make it the "lesser" of the two, which one has unfortunately been forced to choose?  I hope you see the distinction I'm trying to make  ;).

Because I do not believe in necessary evil I am at a loss to answer. 
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Asteriktos on January 02, 2012, 08:17:32 PM
I believe the Roman Catholic Church is credited with the establishment of the principle of the lesser of two evils

I think the concept was pretty firmly established in the undivided Church:

"Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin." - Jn. 19:11

"It is better both to attain the good and to keep the purification. But if it be impossible to do both it is surely better to be a little stained with your public affairs than to fall altogether short of grace; just as I think it better to undergo a slight punishment from father or master than to be put out of doors; and to be a little beamed upon than to be left in total darkness. And it is the part of wise men to choose, as in good things the greater and more perfect, so in evils the lesser and lighter. Wherefore do not overmuch dread the purification. For our success is always judged by comparison with our place in life by our just and merciful Judge; and often one who is in public life and has had small success has had a greater reward than one who in the enjoyment of liberty has not completely succeeded; as I think it more marvellous for a man to advance a little in fetters, than for one to run who is not carrying any weight; or to be only a little spattered in walking through mud, than to be perfectly clean when the road is clean. To give you a proof of what I have said: Rahab the harlot was justified by one thing alone, her hospitality, though she receives no praise for the rest of her conduct; and the Publican was exalted by one thing, his humility, though he received no testimony for anything else; so that you may learn not easily to despair concerning yourself." - St. Gregory the Theologian, Oration 40, 19

"Some members we can dispense with and yet live: without others life is an impossibility. Some offences are light, some heavy. It is one thing to owe ten thousand talents, another to owe a farthing. We shall have to give account of the idle word no less than of adultery; but it is not the same thing to be put to the blush, and to be put upon the rack, to grow red in the face and to ensure lasting torment. Do you think I am merely expressing my own views? Hear what the Apostle John says: 'He who knows that his brother sinneth a sin not unto death, let him ask, and he shall give him life, even to him that sinneth not unto death. But he that hath sinned unto death, who shall pray for him?' You observe that if we entreat for smaller offences, we obtain pardon: if for greater ones, it is difficult to obtain our request: and that there is a great difference between sins." - St. Jerome, Against Jovinianus, 2, 30

"'But fornication, and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as becometh saints.' He has spoken of the bitter passion, of wrath; he now comes to the lesser evil: for that lust is the lesser evil, hear how Moses also in the law says, first, 'Thou shalt do no murder' (Ex. 20:13), which is the work of wrath, and then, 'Thou shalt not commit adultery' (Ex. 20:14), which is of lust. For as 'bitterness,' and 'clamor,' and 'all malice,' and 'railing,' and the like, are the works of the passionate man, so likewise are 'fornication, uncleanness, covetousness,' those of the lustful; since avarice and sensuality spring from the same passion. But just as in the former case he took away 'clamor' as being the vehicle of 'anger,' so now does he 'filthy talking' and 'jesting' as being the vehicle of lust; for he proceeds, 'Nor filthiness, nor foolish talking, or jesting, which are not befitting; but rather giving of thanks.'" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily 17 on Ephesians

"Moreover, when he blames dissensions and schisms, which undoubtedly are evils, he immediately adds heresies likewise. Now, that which he subjoins to evil things, he of course confesses to be itself an evil; and all the greater, indeed, because he tells us that his belief of their schisms and dissensions was grounded on his knowledge that "there must be heresies also." For he shows us that it was owing to the prospect of the greater evil that he readily believed the existence of the lighter ones" - Tertullian, The Prescription Against Heresies, 5

"For we are not more perfect than David, who by a little carelessness was hurled into the very gulf of sin. Yet he arose again quickly. Look not then to his having sinned only, but also to his having washed away his sin. For to this end He wrote that history, not that thou shouldest behold him fallen, but admire him risen; to teach thee, when thou art fallen, how thou shouldest arise. Thus, as physicians choose out the most grievous diseases, and write them in their books, and teach their method of cure in similar cases; if so be men having practised on the greater, may easily master the less; even so God likewise hath brought forward the greatest of sins, that they also who offend in small things may find the cure of these easy, by means of the other: since if those admitted of healing, much more the less. ...in the case of Cain, what was done was not a murder only, but worse than even many murders; for it was not a stranger, but a brother, whom he slew; and a brother who had not done but suffered wrong; not after many murderers, but having first originated the horrid crime: so here too that which was perpetrated was not murder only. For it was no ordinary man that did it, but a prophet: and he slays not him that had done wrong, but him that had suffered wrong; for indeed he had been mortally wronged, by the forcing away his wife: nevertheless after that he added this also." - St. John Chrysostom, Homily 26 on Matthew
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on January 02, 2012, 08:21:54 PM
If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: J Michael on January 02, 2012, 08:35:50 PM
I believe the Roman Catholic Church is credited with the establishment of the principle of the lesser of two evils

I think the concept was pretty firmly established in the undivided Church:

"Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin." - Jn. 19:11

"It is better both to attain the good and to keep the purification. But if it be impossible to do both it is surely better to be a little stained with your public affairs than to fall altogether short of grace; just as I think it better to undergo a slight punishment from father or master than to be put out of doors; and to be a little beamed upon than to be left in total darkness. And it is the part of wise men to choose, as in good things the greater and more perfect, so in evils the lesser and lighter. Wherefore do not overmuch dread the purification. For our success is always judged by comparison with our place in life by our just and merciful Judge; and often one who is in public life and has had small success has had a greater reward than one who in the enjoyment of liberty has not completely succeeded; as I think it more marvellous for a man to advance a little in fetters, than for one to run who is not carrying any weight; or to be only a little spattered in walking through mud, than to be perfectly clean when the road is clean. To give you a proof of what I have said: Rahab the harlot was justified by one thing alone, her hospitality, though she receives no praise for the rest of her conduct; and the Publican was exalted by one thing, his humility, though he received no testimony for anything else; so that you may learn not easily to despair concerning yourself." - St. Gregory the Theologian, Oration 40, 19

"Some members we can dispense with and yet live: without others life is an impossibility. Some offences are light, some heavy. It is one thing to owe ten thousand talents, another to owe a farthing. We shall have to give account of the idle word no less than of adultery; but it is not the same thing to be put to the blush, and to be put upon the rack, to grow red in the face and to ensure lasting torment. Do you think I am merely expressing my own views? Hear what the Apostle John says: 'He who knows that his brother sinneth a sin not unto death, let him ask, and he shall give him life, even to him that sinneth not unto death. But he that hath sinned unto death, who shall pray for him?' You observe that if we entreat for smaller offences, we obtain pardon: if for greater ones, it is difficult to obtain our request: and that there is a great difference between sins." - St. Jerome, Against Jovinianus, 2, 30

"'But fornication, and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as becometh saints.' He has spoken of the bitter passion, of wrath; he now comes to the lesser evil: for that lust is the lesser evil, hear how Moses also in the law says, first, 'Thou shalt do no murder' (Ex. 20:13), which is the work of wrath, and then, 'Thou shalt not commit adultery' (Ex. 20:14), which is of lust. For as 'bitterness,' and 'clamor,' and 'all malice,' and 'railing,' and the like, are the works of the passionate man, so likewise are 'fornication, uncleanness, covetousness,' those of the lustful; since avarice and sensuality spring from the same passion. But just as in the former case he took away 'clamor' as being the vehicle of 'anger,' so now does he 'filthy talking' and 'jesting' as being the vehicle of lust; for he proceeds, 'Nor filthiness, nor foolish talking, or jesting, which are not befitting; but rather giving of thanks.'" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily 17 on Ephesians

"Moreover, when he blames dissensions and schisms, which undoubtedly are evils, he immediately adds heresies likewise. Now, that which he subjoins to evil things, he of course confesses to be itself an evil; and all the greater, indeed, because he tells us that his belief of their schisms and dissensions was grounded on his knowledge that "there must be heresies also." For he shows us that it was owing to the prospect of the greater evil that he readily believed the existence of the lighter ones" - Tertullian, The Prescription Against Heresies, 5

"For we are not more perfect than David, who by a little carelessness was hurled into the very gulf of sin. Yet he arose again quickly. Look not then to his having sinned only, but also to his having washed away his sin. For to this end He wrote that history, not that thou shouldest behold him fallen, but admire him risen; to teach thee, when thou art fallen, how thou shouldest arise. Thus, as physicians choose out the most grievous diseases, and write them in their books, and teach their method of cure in similar cases; if so be men having practised on the greater, may easily master the less; even so God likewise hath brought forward the greatest of sins, that they also who offend in small things may find the cure of these easy, by means of the other: since if those admitted of healing, much more the less. ...in the case of Cain, what was done was not a murder only, but worse than even many murders; for it was not a stranger, but a brother, whom he slew; and a brother who had not done but suffered wrong; not after many murderers, but having first originated the horrid crime: so here too that which was perpetrated was not murder only. For it was no ordinary man that did it, but a prophet: and he slays not him that had done wrong, but him that had suffered wrong; for indeed he had been mortally wronged, by the forcing away his wife: nevertheless after that he added this also." - St. John Chrysostom, Homily 26 on Matthew

I'm afraid this is just too much for my football-besotted brain to take in at the moment  ;D :( ;D.  I'm headed back to the Rose Bowl--Go Ducks  ;D ;D!!
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Ionnis on January 02, 2012, 08:36:09 PM
Eh, deleted. Don't want to scandalize anyone.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Asteriktos on January 02, 2012, 08:40:27 PM
If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.

I don't know, Father. That's certainly a tough one. I don't claim to understand with fullness the concept of lesser evils either (e.g., if it is the right thing, is it an evil anymore? isn't it then a good?).
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: biro on January 02, 2012, 08:42:27 PM
If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.

Off topic, anyone?

What does that have to do with anything, and since when has any major prelate in either of our two churches said anything which remotely resembles it?

If you're asking about the RCC, you must have missed the many statements by the current Pope and his predecessor that homosexuals are called to celibacy. Only someone who was fishing very hard for a straw man argument because he couldn't prove his non-point would say otherwise.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on January 02, 2012, 09:41:43 PM

I know four Orthodox people who are primarily attracted to the same sex, two of which were given that sort of advice by their priests and one by his bishop.  I live in a part of the country that has an exceptionally high number of people who identify as gay, so I don't know if that has anything to do with the outlook of certain priests, as gay people are pretty much mainstreamed in my area.
 

I was thinking of experience in one of the home countries of Orthodoxy.

As we know Canon 6 of Saint Basil allows an established couple who are in fornication to continue and this was made a Canon of the Church at Trullo.  I have heard it said that the same leniency can be extended to permanent homosexual couples.   But the matter is above my paygrade.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on January 02, 2012, 09:44:55 PM
If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.

Off topic, anyone?

The thread diverged into a variety of topics quite a while ago.

People make quite innocent peripheral comments and somebody picks up on it and it becomes a real sub thread.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: stanley123 on January 02, 2012, 11:27:40 PM
If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.

If a student is taking two classes one in Greek and the other in Latin, but he is failing both, is it the lesser of two evils for him to shoot his Greek teacher, who is more strict, rather than to shoot both teachers? If he shoots only one teacher, he might be able to pass the Latin course and avoid the pressure of constant studying in both courses, which he knows he would fail because of the heavy load. So would a clergyman give the advice that shooting only one teacher would be better, since it would  be the lesser of two evils?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cavaradossi on January 03, 2012, 01:02:15 AM
If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.

If a student is taking two classes one in Greek and the other in Latin, but he is failing both, is it the lesser of two evils for him to shoot his Greek teacher, who is more strict, rather than to shoot both teachers? If he shoots only one teacher, he might be able to pass the Latin course and avoid the pressure of constant studying in both courses, which he knows he would fail because of the heavy load. So would a clergyman give the advice that shooting only one teacher would be better, since it would  be the lesser of two evils?

Clearly, the lesser of two evils would always be to kill the Latin teacher instead of the Greek teacher, regardless of circumstance.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: FormerReformer on January 03, 2012, 01:10:27 AM
It depends. Is the Greek teacher teaching Erasmian pronunciation? Though in that case, is shooting the Greek teacher really "evil"?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cavaradossi on January 03, 2012, 01:26:06 AM
It depends. Is the Greek teacher teaching Erasmian pronunciation? Though in that case, is shooting the Greek teacher really "evil"?

I did not consider this situation. Surely killing a Greek teacher who uses Erasmian pronunciation is no worse than killing a dog or a Turk.  :laugh:




(I'm totally kidding, please do not take offense if you happen to be a Turk with no sense of humor)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: JR on January 03, 2012, 06:12:32 AM
If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.

If a student is taking two classes one in Greek and the other in Latin, but he is failing both, is it the lesser of two evils for him to shoot his Greek teacher, who is more strict, rather than to shoot both teachers? If he shoots only one teacher, he might be able to pass the Latin course and avoid the pressure of constant studying in both courses, which he knows he would fail because of the heavy load. So would a clergyman give the advice that shooting only one teacher would be better, since it would  be the lesser of two evils?

I suppose by killing the Latin teacher over the Greek Teacher, you would be killing an already dead language compared to a living language !   ;)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: elijahmaria on January 03, 2012, 08:27:01 AM
I believe the Roman Catholic Church is credited with the establishment of the principle of the lesser of two evils

I think the concept was pretty firmly established in the undivided Church:

"Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin." - Jn. 19:11

"It is better both to attain the good and to keep the purification. But if it be impossible to do both it is surely better to be a little stained with your public affairs than to fall altogether short of grace; just as I think it better to undergo a slight punishment from father or master than to be put out of doors; and to be a little beamed upon than to be left in total darkness. And it is the part of wise men to choose, as in good things the greater and more perfect, so in evils the lesser and lighter. Wherefore do not overmuch dread the purification. For our success is always judged by comparison with our place in life by our just and merciful Judge; and often one who is in public life and has had small success has had a greater reward than one who in the enjoyment of liberty has not completely succeeded; as I think it more marvellous for a man to advance a little in fetters, than for one to run who is not carrying any weight; or to be only a little spattered in walking through mud, than to be perfectly clean when the road is clean. To give you a proof of what I have said: Rahab the harlot was justified by one thing alone, her hospitality, though she receives no praise for the rest of her conduct; and the Publican was exalted by one thing, his humility, though he received no testimony for anything else; so that you may learn not easily to despair concerning yourself." - St. Gregory the Theologian, Oration 40, 19

"Some members we can dispense with and yet live: without others life is an impossibility. Some offences are light, some heavy. It is one thing to owe ten thousand talents, another to owe a farthing. We shall have to give account of the idle word no less than of adultery; but it is not the same thing to be put to the blush, and to be put upon the rack, to grow red in the face and to ensure lasting torment. Do you think I am merely expressing my own views? Hear what the Apostle John says: 'He who knows that his brother sinneth a sin not unto death, let him ask, and he shall give him life, even to him that sinneth not unto death. But he that hath sinned unto death, who shall pray for him?' You observe that if we entreat for smaller offences, we obtain pardon: if for greater ones, it is difficult to obtain our request: and that there is a great difference between sins." - St. Jerome, Against Jovinianus, 2, 30

"'But fornication, and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as becometh saints.' He has spoken of the bitter passion, of wrath; he now comes to the lesser evil: for that lust is the lesser evil, hear how Moses also in the law says, first, 'Thou shalt do no murder' (Ex. 20:13), which is the work of wrath, and then, 'Thou shalt not commit adultery' (Ex. 20:14), which is of lust. For as 'bitterness,' and 'clamor,' and 'all malice,' and 'railing,' and the like, are the works of the passionate man, so likewise are 'fornication, uncleanness, covetousness,' those of the lustful; since avarice and sensuality spring from the same passion. But just as in the former case he took away 'clamor' as being the vehicle of 'anger,' so now does he 'filthy talking' and 'jesting' as being the vehicle of lust; for he proceeds, 'Nor filthiness, nor foolish talking, or jesting, which are not befitting; but rather giving of thanks.'" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily 17 on Ephesians

"Moreover, when he blames dissensions and schisms, which undoubtedly are evils, he immediately adds heresies likewise. Now, that which he subjoins to evil things, he of course confesses to be itself an evil; and all the greater, indeed, because he tells us that his belief of their schisms and dissensions was grounded on his knowledge that "there must be heresies also." For he shows us that it was owing to the prospect of the greater evil that he readily believed the existence of the lighter ones" - Tertullian, The Prescription Against Heresies, 5

"For we are not more perfect than David, who by a little carelessness was hurled into the very gulf of sin. Yet he arose again quickly. Look not then to his having sinned only, but also to his having washed away his sin. For to this end He wrote that history, not that thou shouldest behold him fallen, but admire him risen; to teach thee, when thou art fallen, how thou shouldest arise. Thus, as physicians choose out the most grievous diseases, and write them in their books, and teach their method of cure in similar cases; if so be men having practised on the greater, may easily master the less; even so God likewise hath brought forward the greatest of sins, that they also who offend in small things may find the cure of these easy, by means of the other: since if those admitted of healing, much more the less. ...in the case of Cain, what was done was not a murder only, but worse than even many murders; for it was not a stranger, but a brother, whom he slew; and a brother who had not done but suffered wrong; not after many murderers, but having first originated the horrid crime: so here too that which was perpetrated was not murder only. For it was no ordinary man that did it, but a prophet: and he slays not him that had done wrong, but him that had suffered wrong; for indeed he had been mortally wronged, by the forcing away his wife: nevertheless after that he added this also." - St. John Chrysostom, Homily 26 on Matthew

And then as we open ourselves to grace, there is this:

Saint Symeon the New Theologian, in his Hymn no. 44 reiterates this point in the following way:

"The Master is in no way envious of mortal men that they should appear equal to Him by divine grace, neither does He deem His servants unworthy to be like unto Him, but rather does He delight and rejoice to see us who were made men such as to become by grace what He is by nature. And He is so beneficent that He wills us to become even as He is. For if we be not as He is, exactly like unto Him in every way, how could we be united to Him? How could we dwell in Him, as He said, without being like unto Him, and how could He dwell in us, if we be not as He is?" (9)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: elijahmaria on January 03, 2012, 08:27:01 AM
If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.

I don't know, Father. That's certainly a tough one. I don't claim to understand with fullness the concept of lesser evils either (e.g., if it is the right thing, is it an evil anymore? isn't it then a good?).

It is one thing to say that a sin is permissible...

It is quite something else to say that the guilt for that sin is mitigated by some circumstance or another...

One sin guilt that is not ever mitigated according to Catholic teaching is abortion.

Have you ever been turned over to your bishop for absolution?

I have.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: KShaft on January 03, 2012, 04:25:58 PM
If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.

Dear Lord man! Do Like Fr. Seraphim Rose and stop screwing men all together and live an Orthodox way of life.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: J Michael on January 03, 2012, 05:16:20 PM
If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.

Dear Lord man! Do Like Fr. Seraphim Rose and stop screwing men all together and live an Orthodox way of life.

Uhh....I hope you're not addressing this to Fr. Ambrose!!  Or is this the advice that you would gently and charitably offer someone in that situation  ::)?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on January 03, 2012, 05:34:38 PM
If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.

Dear Lord man! Do Like Fr. Seraphim Rose and stop screwing men all together and live an Orthodox way of life.

I cannot see that Fr Seraphim should be held up as a theologian (there is, people say, much that is wrong in his writings) but I am recommending him for his heroic struggle with his own sexuality.  He is similar to Saint Augustine whom the Orthodox would draw back from recommending as a theologian but will praise him for the repentance and piety found in his Confessions.  He is a model of repentance. Fr Seraphim offers a similar model of repentance for our sex-obsessed century.

He would provide a suitable intercessor for those struggling with same-sex attraction.  In this way, in his own spiritual and moral struggles he may provide more comfort for the people of our times than modern theologians.  We can love him and venerate him for this alone.

(http://orthodoxincense.com/images/Icons/SeraphimRoseSlavonic.jpg)

Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on January 03, 2012, 06:52:32 PM
If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.

Dear Lord man! Do Like Fr. Seraphim Rose and stop screwing men all together and live an Orthodox way of life.

Dear KShaft,

I admire Fr Seraphim very much and believe that in his struggle to rein in the "objective disorder" of his soul and the "strong tendency ordered towards an intrinsic moral evil" he has achieved a great measure of holiness and is an outstanding inspiration and model for others who struggle with the same disorder of same sex attraction. That is the crux of his sanctity.

But what you write is a little unrealistic and a little cruel.

In order to remove himself from temptation Fr Seraphim had to go to extraordinary lengths.   He took up residence on a remote mountain and then he tortured his body with such fierce ascetic practices that he died of ill health in his 40s.

Other men cannot do that.  They have to remain at their jobs, where every Christmas party brings alcohol and temptations.   They have to accept birthday invitations and visit pubs and restaurants and that brings more temptation.  They cannot engage in the merciless asceticism which Fr Seraphim did.

To say, let them imitate Fr Seraphim is not really possible.

Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cavaradossi on January 03, 2012, 06:59:08 PM
If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.

Dear Lord man! Do Like Fr. Seraphim Rose and stop screwing men all together and live an Orthodox way of life.

Dear KShaft,

I admire Fr Seraphim very much and believe that in his struggle to rein in the "objective disorder" of his soul and the "strong tendency ordered towards an intrinsic moral evil" he has achieved a great measure of holiness and is an outstanding inspiration and model for others who struggle with the same disorder of same sex attraction. That is the crux of his sanctity.

But what you write is a little unrealistic and a little cruel.

In order to remove himself from temptation Fr Seraphim had to go to extraordinary lengths.   He took up residence on a remote mountain and then he tortured his body with such fierce ascetic practices that he died of ill health in his 40s.

Other men cannot that.  They have to remain at their jobs, where every Christmas party brings alcohol and temptations.   They have to accept birthday invitations and visit pubs and restaurants and that brings more temptation.  They cannot engage in the merciless asceticism which Fr Seraphim did.

To say, let them imitate Fr Seraphim is not really possible.



Imagine that, thinking of homosexuals as people, instead of abstractions.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: KShaft on January 04, 2012, 02:18:13 AM
If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.

Dear Lord man! Do Like Fr. Seraphim Rose and stop screwing men all together and live an Orthodox way of life.

Dear KShaft,

I admire Fr Seraphim very much and believe that in his struggle to rein in the "objective disorder" of his soul and the "strong tendency ordered towards an intrinsic moral evil" he has achieved a great measure of holiness and is an outstanding inspiration and model for others who struggle with the same disorder of same sex attraction. That is the crux of his sanctity.

But what you write is a little unrealistic and a little cruel.

In order to remove himself from temptation Fr Seraphim had to go to extraordinary lengths.   He took up residence on a remote mountain and then he tortured his body with such fierce ascetic practices that he died of ill health in his 40s.

Other men cannot do that.  They have to remain at their jobs, where every Christmas party brings alcohol and temptations.   They have to accept birthday invitations and visit pubs and restaurants and that brings more temptation.  They cannot engage in the merciless asceticism which Fr Seraphim did.

To say, let them imitate Fr Seraphim is not really possible.



 I think making excuses for behavior that laid two cities to burn and that St. Paul himself would not allow one to enter into the Kingdom, is much more cruel.

 " Any one who puts ones hand to the plow and then looks back is not fit for the Kingdom of (Heaven)"
 " Whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it." 

 I am myself fighting off such passions. Not homosexuality, but fornication and perversion in general.  When I was in Germany I went to a brothel at least once a week.  Now I have not been with a woman for nearly a year and a half. (Try telling your typical buddies that as something good!). I still sin with lust and other stuff, but those battles I went through to get to where I am now were horrible and I would burn to not call and would battle not calling for hours at a time. And the war goes on.  Being soft or saying "its okay" just enables the person. It isnt okay and making excuses for it doesn't help at all.  You need to make a decision not to do it period, avoid the occasions of sin when possible, understand you will fall,  learn from it, dont beat yourself up too hard(emphasis here is too hard) and battle harder. This isnt a new years resolution. This is your immortal soul. If you half ass it you will fail; period. If you arent willing to go through what Fr. Seraphim did, how can you claim to truly love our Lord? "If ye love me, keep my commandments."
You may not be able to do exactly as he did, but to the best of your ability and what is possible for a layman who has other responsibilities,  you will see results and the Holy Spirit working with you. He doesnt give you commands that are impossible, and that includes chastity no matter what your sexual orientation.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: KShaft on January 04, 2012, 02:30:02 AM
If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.

Dear Lord man! Do Like Fr. Seraphim Rose and stop screwing men all together and live an Orthodox way of life.

Uhh....I hope you're not addressing this to Fr. Ambrose!!  Or is this the advice that you would gently and charitably offer someone in that situation  ::)?

 Well I wasnt "saying" this to Fr. Ambrose as in "stop being gay Father!" but I was retorting the guy who would give such advice to the homosexual Orthodox man.

Charity is being honest and being there for someone. Gentle may have nothing to do with it. Gentle is letting an individual know their loved one has passed on. Charity with a heroin addict may involve locking him in a room and tying him to a bed. There's nothing gentle about it.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: KShaft on January 04, 2012, 02:41:25 AM
If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.

Dear Lord man! Do Like Fr. Seraphim Rose and stop screwing men all together and live an Orthodox way of life.

I cannot see that Fr Seraphim should be held up as a theologian (there is, people say, much that is wrong in his writings) but I am recommending him for his heroic struggle with his own sexuality.  He is similar to Saint Augustine whom the Orthodox would draw back from recommending as a theologian but will praise him for the repentance and piety found in his Confessions.  He is a model of repentance. Fr Seraphim offers a similar model of repentance for our sex-obsessed century.

He would provide a suitable intercessor for those struggling with same-sex attraction.  In this way, in his own spiritual and moral struggles he may provide more comfort for the people of our times than modern theologians.  We can love him and venerate him for this alone.

(http://orthodoxincense.com/images/Icons/SeraphimRoseSlavonic.jpg)



Well yes I agree with all this Father.  His understanding of demonic forces/philosophies and how they manifest themselves in the modern world are a true weapon against those forces and philosophies. Even though the writings are simple, they are effective. Im not sure where he erred, but if its the toll houses for instance (which any literal interpretation of as opposed to allegorically I am thoroughly opposed to as it relies on gnosticism and takes away the judgment that belongs Christ and hands it to demons. Ridiculous.)I hope that he just used it metaphorically or allegorically and not as an actual phenomenon that happens after death.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on January 04, 2012, 02:59:34 AM
I think making excuses for behavior that laid two cities to burn and that St. Paul himself would not allow one to enter into the Kingdom, is much more cruel.

Noone wishes to encourage immorality but, despite Saint Paul's warning that fornicators will not enter the Kingdom,  canon 26 of Saint Basil, taken into the universal Church at the Council of Trullo, permits fornicators to continue in fornication.

I do not pretend to understand this dichotomy but the fact is that it exists.  An example of serious pastoral economy?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: KShaft on January 04, 2012, 03:09:46 AM
I think making excuses for behavior that laid two cities to burn and that St. Paul himself would not allow one to enter into the Kingdom, is much more cruel.

Noone wishes to encourage immorality but, despite Saint Paul's warning that fornicators will not enter the Kingdom,  canon 6 of Saint Basil, taken into the universal Church at the Council of Trullo, permits fornicators to continue in fornication.

I do not pretend to understand this dichotomy but the fact is that it exists.  An example of serious pastoral economy?

If a presbyter has through ignorance contracted an illegal marriage, while he still retains the right to his place, as we have defined in the sacred canons, yet he must abstain from all sacerdotal work. For it is sufficient if to such an one indulgence is granted. For he is unfit to bless another who needs to take care of his own wounds, for blessing is the imparting of sanctification. But how can he impart this to another who does not possess it himself through a sin of ignorance? Neither then in public nor in private can he bless nor distribute to others the body of Christ, [nor perform any other ministry]; but being content with his seat of honour let him lament to the Lord that his sin of ignorance may be remitted. For it is manifest that the nefarious marriage must be dissolved, neither can the man have any intercourse with her on account of whom he is deprived of the execution of his priesthood.

?????

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Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on January 04, 2012, 05:33:23 AM
I think making excuses for behavior that laid two cities to burn and that St. Paul himself would not allow one to enter into the Kingdom, is much more cruel.

Noone wishes to encourage immorality but, despite Saint Paul's warning that fornicators will not enter the Kingdom,  canon 26 of Saint Basil, taken into the universal Church at the Council of Trullo, permits fornicators to continue in fornication.

I do not pretend to understand this dichotomy but the fact is that it exists.  An example of serious pastoral economy?

My apologies.  I mistyped snd entered an incorrect number for the canon.  It is of course canon 26.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xvii.xii.html
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: J Michael on January 04, 2012, 12:34:36 PM
If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.

Dear Lord man! Do Like Fr. Seraphim Rose and stop screwing men all together and live an Orthodox way of life.

Uhh....I hope you're not addressing this to Fr. Ambrose!!  Or is this the advice that you would gently and charitably offer someone in that situation  ::)?

 Well I wasnt "saying" this to Fr. Ambrose as in "stop being gay Father!" but I was retorting the guy who would give such advice to the homosexual Orthodox man.


Just checking  ;).  The way you worded it could be interpreted that you were saying it "to" him.

Charity is being honest and being there for someone. Gentle may have nothing to do with it. Gentle is letting an individual know their loved one has passed on. Charity with a heroin addict may involve locking him in a room and tying him to a bed. There's nothing gentle about it.

Basically no argument with you there.  Not so sure, however, about the "tying him to a bed" part though  :o.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: KShaft on January 04, 2012, 12:56:43 PM
If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.

Dear Lord man! Do Like Fr. Seraphim Rose and stop screwing men all together and live an Orthodox way of life.

Uhh....I hope you're not addressing this to Fr. Ambrose!!  Or is this the advice that you would gently and charitably offer someone in that situation  ::)?

 Well I wasnt "saying" this to Fr. Ambrose as in "stop being gay Father!" but I was retorting the guy who would give such advice to the homosexual Orthodox man.


Just checking  ;).  The way you worded it could be interpreted that you were saying it "to" him.

Charity is being honest and being there for someone. Gentle may have nothing to do with it. Gentle is letting an individual know their loved one has passed on. Charity with a heroin addict may involve locking him in a room and tying him to a bed. There's nothing gentle about it.

Basically no argument with you there.  Not so sure, however, about the "tying him to a bed" part though  :o.

Your mind is just in the gutter sir... lol ... I clearly meant that for his own protection so he doesnt attempt to fly out of a window or perhaps stab his 'captors'. Now if it was a Victoria Secret model on the other hand......
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: KShaft on January 04, 2012, 01:01:42 PM
I think making excuses for behavior that laid two cities to burn and that St. Paul himself would not allow one to enter into the Kingdom, is much more cruel.

Noone wishes to encourage immorality but, despite Saint Paul's warning that fornicators will not enter the Kingdom,  canon 26 of Saint Basil, taken into the universal Church at the Council of Trullo, permits fornicators to continue in fornication.

I do not pretend to understand this dichotomy but the fact is that it exists.  An example of serious pastoral economy?

My apologies.  I mistyped snd entered an incorrect number for the canon.  It is of course canon 26.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xvii.xii.html

Father I think that addresses a couple who fall into lust but have serious feelings about one another. Its saying it would be better to not be more involved with a girl you 'hooked up' with for a night, and go your separate ways (at least when considering a marriage partner)  but if you do develop serious feelings about her then you allow them to still see each other. I dont think that is at all condoning continued fornication, especially in the manner I was thinking of (a lustful guy or girl fornicating with multiple partners).
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on January 04, 2012, 03:52:54 PM
I think making excuses for behavior that laid two cities to burn and that St. Paul himself would not allow one to enter into the Kingdom, is much more cruel.

Noone wishes to encourage immorality but, despite Saint Paul's warning that fornicators will not enter the Kingdom,  canon 26 of Saint Basil, taken into the universal Church at the Council of Trullo, permits fornicators to continue in fornication.

I do not pretend to understand this dichotomy but the fact is that it exists.  An example of serious pastoral economy?

My apologies.  I mistyped snd entered an incorrect number for the canon.  It is of course canon 26.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xvii.xii.html

Father I think that addresses a couple who fall into lust but have serious feelings about one another. Its saying it would be better to not be more involved with a girl you 'hooked up' with for a night, and go your separate ways (at least when considering a marriage partner)  but if you do develop serious feelings about her then you allow them to still see each other. I dont think that is at all condoning continued fornication, especially in the manner I was thinking of (a lustful guy or girl fornicating with multiple partners).

My interpretation of the canon was the one I was taught in Serbia.  We could try and check if it is the one taught in Greece. 

My imagination is not as active as yours and I never imagined it to apply to "a lustful guy or girl fornicating with multiple partners" but to serious long-term and as the canon says "passionate" lovers.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: KShaft on January 04, 2012, 04:58:34 PM
I think making excuses for behavior that laid two cities to burn and that St. Paul himself would not allow one to enter into the Kingdom, is much more cruel.

Noone wishes to encourage immorality but, despite Saint Paul's warning that fornicators will not enter the Kingdom,  canon 26 of Saint Basil, taken into the universal Church at the Council of Trullo, permits fornicators to continue in fornication.

I do not pretend to understand this dichotomy but the fact is that it exists.  An example of serious pastoral economy?

My apologies.  I mistyped snd entered an incorrect number for the canon.  It is of course canon 26.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xvii.xii.html

Father I think that addresses a couple who fall into lust but have serious feelings about one another. Its saying it would be better to not be more involved with a girl you 'hooked up' with for a night, and go your separate ways (at least when considering a marriage partner)  but if you do develop serious feelings about her then you allow them to still see each other. I dont think that is at all condoning continued fornication, especially in the manner I was thinking of (a lustful guy or girl fornicating with multiple partners).

My interpretation of the canon was the one I was taught in Serbia.  We could try and check if it is the one taught in Greece.  

My imagination is not as active as yours and I never imagined it to apply to "a lustful guy or girl fornicating with multiple partners" but to serious long-term and as the canon says "passionate" lovers.

Oh no when you said they allow fornication thats what I thought you meant before looking at the canon. Thats why I thought it odd.
The canon states when dealing with the passionate couple to not separate them. It doesn't say to be consenting to fornication. Perhaps they cannot marry for whatever reason(I have heard of priests with mistresses only because they met after he was ordained and has children by her and they are pretty much a family without the official marriage ceremony) or they do not want them to marry others because they still love one another (because couples who fornicated before marriage are typically separated according to the canon) and would end up committing adultery(this being the 'something worse' they refer to).  I think this is what they are talking about but I could be way off base...

Do you know Fr. Dennis Pavichevich or his nephew Fr Aleksa Pavichevich? I believe Fr. Dennis went to a Serbian seminary but later went to SVS.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: PeterTheAleut on January 04, 2012, 05:10:53 PM
I think making excuses for behavior that laid two cities to burn and that St. Paul himself would not allow one to enter into the Kingdom, is much more cruel.

Noone wishes to encourage immorality but, despite Saint Paul's warning that fornicators will not enter the Kingdom,  canon 6 of Saint Basil, taken into the universal Church at the Council of Trullo, permits fornicators to continue in fornication.

I do not pretend to understand this dichotomy but the fact is that it exists.  An example of serious pastoral economy?

If a presbyter has through ignorance contracted an illegal marriage, while he still retains the right to his place, as we have defined in the sacred canons, yet he must abstain from all sacerdotal work. For it is sufficient if to such an one indulgence is granted. For he is unfit to bless another who needs to take care of his own wounds, for blessing is the imparting of sanctification. But how can he impart this to another who does not possess it himself through a sin of ignorance? Neither then in public nor in private can he bless nor distribute to others the body of Christ, [nor perform any other ministry]; but being content with his seat of honour let him lament to the Lord that his sin of ignorance may be remitted. For it is manifest that the nefarious marriage must be dissolved, neither can the man have any intercourse with her on account of whom he is deprived of the execution of his priesthood.

?????
Could you give us a link to where you read this?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: KShaft on January 04, 2012, 05:17:57 PM
I think making excuses for behavior that laid two cities to burn and that St. Paul himself would not allow one to enter into the Kingdom, is much more cruel.

Noone wishes to encourage immorality but, despite Saint Paul's warning that fornicators will not enter the Kingdom,  canon 6 of Saint Basil, taken into the universal Church at the Council of Trullo, permits fornicators to continue in fornication.

I do not pretend to understand this dichotomy but the fact is that it exists.  An example of serious pastoral economy?

If a presbyter has through ignorance contracted an illegal marriage, while he still retains the right to his place, as we have defined in the sacred canons, yet he must abstain from all sacerdotal work. For it is sufficient if to such an one indulgence is granted. For he is unfit to bless another who needs to take care of his own wounds, for blessing is the imparting of sanctification. But how can he impart this to another who does not possess it himself through a sin of ignorance? Neither then in public nor in private can he bless nor distribute to others the body of Christ, [nor perform any other ministry]; but being content with his seat of honour let him lament to the Lord that his sin of ignorance may be remitted. For it is manifest that the nefarious marriage must be dissolved, neither can the man have any intercourse with her on account of whom he is deprived of the execution of his priesthood.

?????
Could you give us a link to where you read this?
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3814.htm
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Hermit on January 04, 2012, 05:28:13 PM
Do you know Fr. Dennis Pavichevich or his nephew Fr Aleksa Pavichevich? I believe Fr. Dennis went to a Serbian seminary but later went to SVS.

No.  I think he was in Serbia a decade before me.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: PeterTheAleut on January 04, 2012, 11:45:45 PM
I think making excuses for behavior that laid two cities to burn and that St. Paul himself would not allow one to enter into the Kingdom, is much more cruel.

Noone wishes to encourage immorality but, despite Saint Paul's warning that fornicators will not enter the Kingdom,  canon 6 of Saint Basil, taken into the universal Church at the Council of Trullo, permits fornicators to continue in fornication.

I do not pretend to understand this dichotomy but the fact is that it exists.  An example of serious pastoral economy?

If a presbyter has through ignorance contracted an illegal marriage, while he still retains the right to his place, as we have defined in the sacred canons, yet he must abstain from all sacerdotal work. For it is sufficient if to such an one indulgence is granted. For he is unfit to bless another who needs to take care of his own wounds, for blessing is the imparting of sanctification. But how can he impart this to another who does not possess it himself through a sin of ignorance? Neither then in public nor in private can he bless nor distribute to others the body of Christ, [nor perform any other ministry]; but being content with his seat of honour let him lament to the Lord that his sin of ignorance may be remitted. For it is manifest that the nefarious marriage must be dissolved, neither can the man have any intercourse with her on account of whom he is deprived of the execution of his priesthood.

?????
Could you give us a link to where you read this?
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3814.htm
Cool! 8) Thank you.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: KShaft on January 05, 2012, 02:25:50 AM
I think making excuses for behavior that laid two cities to burn and that St. Paul himself would not allow one to enter into the Kingdom, is much more cruel.

Noone wishes to encourage immorality but, despite Saint Paul's warning that fornicators will not enter the Kingdom,  canon 6 of Saint Basil, taken into the universal Church at the Council of Trullo, permits fornicators to continue in fornication.

I do not pretend to understand this dichotomy but the fact is that it exists.  An example of serious pastoral economy?

If a presbyter has through ignorance contracted an illegal marriage, while he still retains the right to his place, as we have defined in the sacred canons, yet he must abstain from all sacerdotal work. For it is sufficient if to such an one indulgence is granted. For he is unfit to bless another who needs to take care of his own wounds, for blessing is the imparting of sanctification. But how can he impart this to another who does not possess it himself through a sin of ignorance? Neither then in public nor in private can he bless nor distribute to others the body of Christ, [nor perform any other ministry]; but being content with his seat of honour let him lament to the Lord that his sin of ignorance may be remitted. For it is manifest that the nefarious marriage must be dissolved, neither can the man have any intercourse with her on account of whom he is deprived of the execution of his priesthood.

?????
Could you give us a link to where you read this?
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3814.htm
Cool! 8) Thank you.

NP!
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: KShaft on January 06, 2012, 07:05:03 PM
I think making excuses for behavior that laid two cities to burn and that St. Paul himself would not allow one to enter into the Kingdom, is much more cruel.

Noone wishes to encourage immorality but, despite Saint Paul's warning that fornicators will not enter the Kingdom,  canon 6 of Saint Basil, taken into the universal Church at the Council of Trullo, permits fornicators to continue in fornication.

I do not pretend to understand this dichotomy but the fact is that it exists.  An example of serious pastoral economy?

If a presbyter has through ignorance contracted an illegal marriage, while he still retains the right to his place, as we have defined in the sacred canons, yet he must abstain from all sacerdotal work. For it is sufficient if to such an one indulgence is granted. For he is unfit to bless another who needs to take care of his own wounds, for blessing is the imparting of sanctification. But how can he impart this to another who does not possess it himself through a sin of ignorance? Neither then in public nor in private can he bless nor distribute to others the body of Christ, [nor perform any other ministry]; but being content with his seat of honour let him lament to the Lord that his sin of ignorance may be remitted. For it is manifest that the nefarious marriage must be dissolved, neither can the man have any intercourse with her on account of whom he is deprived of the execution of his priesthood.

Council in Trullo (A.D. 692) Canon 26

?????

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Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on March 04, 2012, 11:03:15 PM
Not necessarily related to the "encyclopedia robot" idea, but was I a bit amazed by this statement that was made on CAF today

Quote from: mardukm
Orthodox ideas are not wrong, but are valid and holy.

His profile reads
Religion: Orthodox in Communion w/ Rome (Copt)
(he's Catholic).
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: ialmisry on March 04, 2012, 11:30:16 PM
Not necessarily related to the "encyclopedia robot" idea, but was I a bit amazed by this statement that was made on CAF today

Quote from: mardukm
Orthodox ideas are not wrong, but are valid and holy.

His profile reads
Religion: Orthodox in Communion w/ Rome (Copt)
(he's Catholic).
no, he's in submission to the Vatican.  His ideas are, how shall we say, idiosyncratic, as has been pointed out by his former and present correligionists.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on March 18, 2012, 08:20:41 PM
Another guideline post at CAF is titled On the use of the words uniate, schismatic, and heretic (http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=3740746&postcount=4). This isn't a new post (in fact it's from shortly after the switch from "EC" to "EC") but I read it recently for unrelated reasons.

The reason I mention it is the second paragraph which begins with "In recent history, there has been some increase in the use of the term [uniate] by Rome itself". Can anyone explain for me what she is referring to? I don't recall Rome using the U-word recently.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 15, 2012, 03:27:12 PM
We're running out of Orthodox members over at CAF.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on September 15, 2012, 03:33:50 PM
We're running out of Orthodox members over at CAF.

They even gave me the boot. They can't take a little heat. I am quite surprised that you aren't banned over there yet.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: KShaft on September 15, 2012, 04:02:11 PM
We're running out of Orthodox members over at CAF.

They even gave me the boot. They can't take a little heat. I am quite surprised that you aren't banned over there yet.

No. They cant, except when its anything other than Orthodox or Traditional Catholic. I mean atheists, agnostics, yoga practioners etc... get away with all sorts of stuff. Call em on it and your an old fashioned, uncharitable, perhaps bigoted, big fat meanie. They're ecumenical towards everyone except those who adhere to the truth or at least try to.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Marc1152 on September 15, 2012, 04:51:22 PM
We're running out of Orthodox members over at CAF.

They even gave me the boot. They can't take a little heat. I am quite surprised that you aren't banned over there yet.

No. They cant, except when its anything other than Orthodox or Traditional Catholic. I mean atheists, agnostics, yoga practioners etc... get away with all sorts of stuff. Call em on it and your an old fashioned, uncharitable, perhaps bigoted, big fat meanie. They're ecumenical towards everyone except those who adhere to the truth or at least try to.

I think they are charitable toward anyone that isn't a big competitor. Not too many people will give up Roman Catholicism for Yoga..Orthodoxy on the other hand ...........
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on September 15, 2012, 06:03:11 PM
Also, don't make the mistake of saying Islam is a false religion. Even though it is a big competitor to Catholicism, we can't say that it's false. That's uncharitable.

Things I learned today... ;D
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Apotheoun on September 15, 2012, 06:34:27 PM
Also, don't make the mistake of saying Islam is a false religion. Even though it is a big competitor to Catholicism, we can't say that it's false. That's uncharitable.

Things I learned today... ;D
I also find the modern Roman Catholic position on Islam to be problematic. 
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cavaradossi on September 15, 2012, 08:54:14 PM
We're running out of Orthodox members over at CAF.

A shame. It's become so hostile at CAF that I really have lost much of my desire to post there.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on September 15, 2012, 09:50:24 PM
We're running out of Orthodox members over at CAF.

They even gave me the boot. They can't take a little heat. I am quite surprised that you aren't banned over there yet.

No. They cant, except when its anything other than Orthodox or Traditional Catholic. I mean atheists, agnostics, yoga practioners etc... get away with all sorts of stuff.

I find your second sentence pretty hard to believe (I could be wrong -- I seldom interact with non-Christians on CAF). But I have certainly known a bunch of traditional Catholics who don't like the way things are at CAF.

Although, interestingly enough, the traditional crowd and the Eastern crowd generally don't ally with each other at CAF.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on September 15, 2012, 09:52:02 PM
We're running out of Orthodox members over at CAF.

They even gave me the boot. They can't take a little heat. I am quite surprised that you aren't banned over there yet.

Indeed, I generally recommend taking care about what you say to whom over there.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cavaradossi on September 15, 2012, 10:24:17 PM
Also most upsetting is that they banned Hesychios. It is too bad that he does not post here at OC.net very often. :-\
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Shiny on September 15, 2012, 11:14:23 PM
Is CAF the same place where they got rid of the Orthodox section and banned a bunch of people? I guess there were alot of people converting to Orthodoxy and that didn't sit well with the mods.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 16, 2012, 01:31:45 AM
We're running out of Orthodox members over at CAF.

They even gave me the boot. They can't take a little heat. I am quite surprised that you aren't banned over there yet.

Everyone is surprised, myself included  ;D

I have began to wonder if the admins were on vacation or something.  They used to be quick to the trigger.  I have gotten a lot of warnings over the last few months.  But my recent pro-Orthodox position hasn't even gotten me one warning whilst it has gotten many recognized Orthodox posters banned.  I'm guessing they are trying to keep me on hoping those who are convincing me to reconsider Orthodoxy might succeed?  I don't know.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 16, 2012, 01:34:52 AM
No. They cant, except when its anything other than Orthodox or Traditional Catholic. I mean atheists, agnostics, yoga practioners etc... get away with all sorts of stuff. Call em on it and your an old fashioned, uncharitable, perhaps bigoted, big fat meanie. They're ecumenical towards everyone except those who adhere to the truth or at least try to.

They don't have good, solid tracts against Orthodoxy.  I guess that is why.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on September 16, 2012, 04:34:39 AM
No. They cant, except when its anything other than Orthodox or Traditional Catholic. I mean atheists, agnostics, yoga practioners etc... get away with all sorts of stuff. Call em on it and your an old fashioned, uncharitable, perhaps bigoted, big fat meanie. They're ecumenical towards everyone except those who adhere to the truth or at least try to.

They don't have good, solid tracts against Orthodoxy.  I guess that is why.

This. Even I could disprove every argument they made in their silly anti-Orthodoxy tracts. On the other hand, it's hard to argue against the truth so any tract against Orthodoxy will be difficult to make.

Also most upsetting is that they banned Hesychios. It is too bad that he does not post here at OC.net very often. :-\

That was sad. I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw it. Hesychios was always really nice to everyone.


But meh, my three favorite posters from CAF, Dzheremi, Cavaradossi and ConstantineTG, are all here anyway. If it weren't for these luminaries I might be a Latin now.

Also, don't make the mistake of saying Islam is a false religion. Even though it is a big competitor to Catholicism, we can't say that it's false. That's uncharitable.

Things I learned today... ;D
I also find the modern Roman Catholic position on Islam to be problematic. 

I once said the same on the Non-Catholic [sic] Religions section about the modern RC position on Judaism. Unbelievable what a can of worms I opened there! :D
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on September 16, 2012, 05:12:34 AM
We're running out of Orthodox members over at CAF.

They even gave me the boot. They can't take a little heat. I am quite surprised that you aren't banned over there yet.

No. They cant, except when its anything other than Orthodox or Traditional Catholic. I mean atheists, agnostics, yoga practioners etc... get away with all sorts of stuff.


Although, interestingly enough, the traditional crowd and the Eastern crowd generally don't ally with each other at CAF.

D-uh, the traditionalists seem to think that Eastern christians are modernists with icons.

We're running out of Orthodox members over at CAF.

They even gave me the boot. They can't take a little heat. I am quite surprised that you aren't banned over there yet.

Indeed, I generally recommend taking care about what you say to whom over there.

I was never insulting or anything. I must admit that I was sometimes a little bit sarcastic, but that's just my writing style.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on September 16, 2012, 07:39:51 AM
Is CAF the same place where they got rid of the Orthodox section and banned a bunch of people?

Yes, they did ban a bunch of people.  :(

As for "got rid of the Orthodox section" ... they used to have an "Eastern Christianity" section, which they removed/replaced with the "Eastern Catholicism" section. To be honest, I find the complaints about that a tad strange. After all, OCnet doesn't have an "Eastern Christianity" section, but you don't see people complaining about that. (Although I suppose some of the complaints are more to the tune of "They did a bait-and-switch by having an "Eastern Christianity" forum and then suddenly replacing it." Which makes more sense to me then straights complaints about the lack of "Eastern Christianity" forum.)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on September 16, 2012, 07:41:08 AM
We're running out of Orthodox members over at CAF.

They even gave me the boot. They can't take a little heat. I am quite surprised that you aren't banned over there yet.

Indeed, I generally recommend taking care about what you say to whom over there.

I was never insulting or anything. I must admit that I was sometimes a little bit sarcastic, but that's just my writing style.

Yeah, I don't recall you bein' bad.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on September 16, 2012, 11:49:21 AM
Yeah, I still cannot believe that they banned Hesychios. I should be banned before Hesychios. That guy never had a bad word to say about anything or anybody. It shocks me some of the people who are allowed to remain (none of the present company included) while others are not, but then I guess I wouldn't make a very good mod at CAF, so it's not really my call to make.

While it is, after all, only an internet message board and nothing like an official organ of the RCC, I see the attitude over there as kind of symbolizing or at least providing a very difficult to dismiss example of why reunion is essentially a pipe dream: We are all brothers until you say something that we, the all-powerful Latins, don't like. It doesn't even have to be something there is a dogmatic position on (e.g., the Islam talk, which CCC 841 notwithstanding, seems to be an area on which even faithful Catholics may disagree); it's enough that you offend our vision of what Christianity is.

Well, what on earth are we supposed to do about that? Say that our faith is something that it's not (false), and your faith is something that it's not (true)? They would have us lie rather than confess the truth as we know it. I don't understand that. I've never known any Orthodox to want that, whether in the Orthodox-RCC dialogues, or the OO-EO dialogues, or general Christian-unbeliever dialogues, etc. I respect the RCC when it is at its least (fake) "charitable", even if they call me a heretic and an apostate in the process, because if you really believe in your faith, then that's it. This is the faith of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. This other thing over there is not. This is why I liked Pope Benedict when I first read some of his writings, because he seemed to want to return to speaking plainly and with the weight of tradition on his side in restoring the Latin mass, getting rid of lax practices, etc. Basically, it seemed like he actually believed he was the Pope of a Christian church, as opposed to someone like JPII who was a goodwill ambassador to the rest of the world, inviting interfaith prayer in Assisi (egad! Lord no!), confronting communism in Poland, etc. I don't get that. I could only be a Latin so long as I believed in it, you know? And I only came to Orthodoxy after coming to believe in it -- not respecting it as the Catholics say they do, nor finding it interesting or curious, but actually believing in it. It seems like many of the Orthodox were banned because they believed just a bit too much. It is uncomfortable and uncharitable in the modern RC view.

Sorry, I didn't get a lot of sleep last night so I'm probably not making any sense, but I don't know...something about the way that the modern RCC approaches or conceives of Christianity bothers me at a very basic level, and I think CAF is a perfect example of where that fundamentally flawed faith and outlook leads in practice.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Charles Martel on September 17, 2012, 04:01:21 PM
Also, don't make the mistake of saying Islam is a false religion. Even though it is a big competitor to Catholicism, we can't say that it's false. That's uncharitable.

Things I learned today... ;D
I also find the modern Roman Catholic position on Islam to be problematic. 
I'd say it's a little more than problematic... >:(

(http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/popekiss.jpg)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 19, 2012, 08:24:54 PM
Is Nine_Two the only Orthodox left at CAF?  I hardly recognize anyone else.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on September 19, 2012, 08:30:26 PM
Cavaradossi is still there (unless they banned him in the time since they suspended me), but doesn't post very much.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cavaradossi on September 19, 2012, 08:36:51 PM
Cavaradossi is still there (unless they banned him in the time since they suspended me), but doesn't post very much.

If you say things like that, you will jinx me. :laugh:

I do not post much any longer, as I feel that the chances for any serious discussion at CAF are close to nothing now. The environment there has become stifling.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on September 19, 2012, 08:43:01 PM
Sorry. Didn't mean to jinx you.  :)

I'm not sure I want to come back after my suspension is over. I agree that the environment over there is not very healthy...not sure I want to add to that anymore.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: ZealousZeal on September 19, 2012, 11:08:31 PM
I cannot imagine what possible reason they had to concoct to ban Hesychios. Words escape me.

I didn't know ConstantineTG was here, is he still EC?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 19, 2012, 11:14:20 PM
I cannot imagine what possible reason they had to concoct to ban Hesychios. Words escape me.

I didn't know ConstantineTG was here, is he still EC?

For the moment ;)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: William on September 19, 2012, 11:42:51 PM
I cannot imagine what possible reason they had to concoct to ban Hesychios. Words escape me.

I didn't know ConstantineTG was here, is he still EC?

For the moment ;)

You're ConstantineTG!
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 20, 2012, 12:31:14 PM
Should I run and hide?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on September 20, 2012, 12:42:04 PM
Should I run and hide?

It's too late, the lynching mob is already here.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on September 20, 2012, 12:48:31 PM
Cavaradossi is still there (unless they banned him in the time since they suspended me), but doesn't post very much.

If you say things like that, you will jinx me. :laugh:

I do not post much any longer, as I feel that the chances for any serious discussion at CAF are close to nothing now. The environment there has become stifling.

Since the last banning spree the EC forum has become untolerably boring (except that part where mardukm was called an apostate, which was funny). No surprise since they banned almost everyone who could argue against them
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 20, 2012, 12:51:18 PM
Should I run and hide?

It's too late, the lynching mob is already here.

Did you mean the Inquisitors :P
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on September 20, 2012, 12:52:55 PM
Should I run and hide?

It's too late, the lynching mob is already here.

Did you mean the Inquisitors :P

The Bearded Inquisitors. They only do Orthodoxy or Death  ;)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 20, 2012, 12:54:50 PM
The Bearded Inquisitors. They only do Orthodoxy or Death  ;)

So they will drag me into an Orthodox Church and Chrismate me?


cool!  ;)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on September 20, 2012, 12:58:13 PM
The Bearded Inquisitors. They only do Orthodoxy or Death  ;)

So they will drag me into an Orthodox Church and Chrismate me?


cool!  ;)

Either that or they'll smash your brains out with icons  :D

I can't wait for them to arrive in town myself, too.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 20, 2012, 01:00:52 PM
Honestly I don't know what to think of my notoriety.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 20, 2012, 04:52:20 PM
Not necessarily related to the "encyclopedia robot" idea, but was I a bit amazed by this statement that was made on CAF today

Quote from: mardukm
Orthodox ideas are not wrong, but are valid and holy.

His profile reads
Religion: Orthodox in Communion w/ Rome (Copt)
(he's Catholic).

He's someone who thinks he figured out how to bridge the gap between East-West-Oriental, and that anyone who doesn't get it the way he does he treats like you're dumb or dense or just plain stupid.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cavaradossi on September 20, 2012, 05:06:32 PM
Honestly I don't know what to think of my notoriety.

I'm jealous. I'm not even half as notorious. :P
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 20, 2012, 05:25:35 PM
Honestly I don't know what to think of my notoriety.

I'm jealous. I'm not even half as notorious. :P

I won't be surprised if I end up Protestant because I get thrown out of every Apostolic Church I go to :P
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on September 20, 2012, 06:06:11 PM
Hahaha. Now I'm told there's somebody (a Catholic) in a thread on miaphysitism telling everyone that the OO do not find "Assyro-Chaldean" Christology heretical. Boy, it's a good thing I'm suspended, because there's no way I'd just let that sit there...as though we're supposed to believe that the Coptic synod somehow magically received the 'agreed' Christological statement of 1996 as Orthodox (they didn't; the Nestorians accepted it, but the Copts rejected it, hence there is no agreement and the Nestorians are just as heretical as they ever were), just because that's what the likes of Mardukm would want to believe (being drafted, as it was, by "senior theologians" or whatever). It is better to be thought of as a heretic by a heretic than to be told by him that you and he really believe the same thing, but maybe just word it differently. That is much more offensive. I deliberately left the Latin communion and now they tell me that I didn't really leave, because of this agreement and that agreement (even ones we didn't actually sign off on)? I'm sorry, but no. The RCC is not the Borg. Go away and stay there. Don't call us; we'll call you.

I can really see why some EO (and OO, but it seems like a much smaller number) are so anti-ecumenism. This kind of thing really drives me nuts.

(Re-reading this before posting, I can really see why I got suspended. Hahaha.)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 20, 2012, 06:08:14 PM
The RCC is not the Borg.

Best. Analogy. Ever.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: ZealousZeal on September 20, 2012, 06:40:45 PM
It's been a while since I've even lurked CAF, but I've wished for some time that mardukm would come over here where conversation isn't so... hindered. I think a conversation between ialmisry and mardukm would be so full of red font and maps, it would be epic.

I cannot imagine what possible reason they had to concoct to ban Hesychios. Words escape me.

I didn't know ConstantineTG was here, is he still EC?

For the moment ;)

Nice to see you around these parts. I'm sure you don't even know me since I was 95% pure lurker on CAF, but all the same, glad you're here.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 20, 2012, 06:43:38 PM
It's been a while since I've even lurked CAF, but I've wished for some time that mardukm would come over here where conversation isn't so... hindered. I think a conversation between ialmisry and mardukm would be so full of red font and maps, it would be epic.

I cannot imagine what possible reason they had to concoct to ban Hesychios. Words escape me.

I didn't know ConstantineTG was here, is he still EC?

For the moment ;)

Nice to see you around these parts. I'm sure you don't even know me since I was 95% pure lurker on CAF, but all the same, glad you're here.

Thanks!  At least your one person who recognizes me and didn't bring a pitchfork and a torch :D
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: ZealousZeal on September 20, 2012, 06:47:42 PM
It's been a while since I've even lurked CAF, but I've wished for some time that mardukm would come over here where conversation isn't so... hindered. I think a conversation between ialmisry and mardukm would be so full of red font and maps, it would be epic.

I cannot imagine what possible reason they had to concoct to ban Hesychios. Words escape me.

I didn't know ConstantineTG was here, is he still EC?

For the moment ;)

Nice to see you around these parts. I'm sure you don't even know me since I was 95% pure lurker on CAF, but all the same, glad you're here.

Thanks!  At least your one person who recognizes me and didn't bring a pitchfork and a torch :D

Ha! I wouldn't be able to decide which one to bring. ;) Just realized I never said, I'm NinjaSnark on CAF. Although people tended to read that as NinjaShark, which is admittedly cooler.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on September 20, 2012, 08:33:54 PM
Yeah, I did that. Sorry. Haha.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: ZealousZeal on September 20, 2012, 08:44:08 PM
Yeah, I did that. Sorry. Haha.

You weren't the only one. ;)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Jetavan on September 20, 2012, 09:40:12 PM
Does CAF support The New Evangelization (http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/how-we-teach/new-evangelization/)?

Quote
The New Evangelization calls each of us to deepen our faith, believe in the Gospel message and go forth to proclaim the Gospel. The focus of the New Evangelization calls all Catholics to be evangelized and then go forth to evangelize. In a special way, the New Evangelization is focused on 're-proposing' the Gospel to those who have experienced a crisis of faith.Pope Benedict XVI called for the re-proposing of the Gospel "to those regions awaiting the first evangelization and to those regions where the roots of Christianity are deep but who have experienced a serious crisis of faith due to secularization." The New Evangelization invites each Catholic to renew their relationship with Jesus Christ and his Church.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Asteriktos on September 20, 2012, 09:48:42 PM
Just realized I never said, I'm NinjaSnark on CAF. Although people tended to read that as NinjaShark, which is admittedly cooler.

I like ninjasnark better (what happens when a good show goes south? it jumps the snark  :P )... ninja sharks sound like something out of an Austin Powers movie  ;D
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on September 20, 2012, 09:51:58 PM
Hahaha. Now I'm told there's somebody (a Catholic) in a thread on miaphysitism telling everyone that the OO do not find "Assyro-Chaldean" Christology heretical.

 :o

The RCC is not the Borg.

You don't think resistance is futile?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on September 20, 2012, 09:54:34 PM
He's someone who thinks he figured out how to bridge the gap between East-West-Oriental, and that anyone who doesn't get it the way he does he treats like you're dumb or dense or just plain stupid.

Unfortunately, many reunion projects that have sounded great to me (at least at first) somehow incorporated the idea that anyone who doesn't get-with-the-program is dense, or stubborn, or has emotional problems, or what have you.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 21, 2012, 01:25:53 AM
There, my avatar makes it known ;)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on September 22, 2012, 06:05:43 AM
Mardukm is going bananas on ConstantineTG. I wonder if he'll get suspended.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cavaradossi on September 22, 2012, 09:52:26 AM
Mardukm is going bananas on ConstantineTG. I wonder if he'll get suspended.

I have never seen that happen, no matter how heated his posts become.

On a side note, I really do wish that he would stop using so much bolded and underlined text in every post. There's nothing special about a bolded and underlined segment of red text, when half of your entire post is written that way; instead, that just makes the entire post incredibly hard to read.  :-\  I must confess that I oftentimes skip over or at most merely skim his posts when he writes in such a fashion.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on September 22, 2012, 10:11:03 AM
Mardukm is going bananas on ConstantineTG. I wonder if he'll get suspended.

I have never seen that happen, no matter how heated his posts become.

On a side note, I really do wish that he would stop using so much bolded and underlined text in every post. There's nothing special about a bolded and underlined segment of red text, when half of your entire post is written that way; instead, that just makes the entire post incredibly hard to read.  :-\  I must confess that I oftentimes skip over or at most merely skim his posts when he writes in such a fashion.

Have you read the part where marduk says CTG is a hypocrite? I too barely read his posts, they're all so long and predictable.

Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Shlomlokh on September 22, 2012, 11:48:43 AM
Mardukm is going bananas on ConstantineTG. I wonder if he'll get suspended.

I have never seen that happen, no matter how heated his posts become.

On a side note, I really do wish that he would stop using so much bolded and underlined text in every post. There's nothing special about a bolded and underlined segment of red text, when half of your entire post is written that way; instead, that just makes the entire post incredibly hard to read.  :-\  I must confess that I oftentimes skip over or at most merely skim his posts when he writes in such a fashion.

Have you read the part where marduk says CTG is a hypocrite? I too barely read his posts, they're all so long and predictable.


I like his liberal use of the word "polemicists." It really ties the whole forum together.

In Christ,
Andrew
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on September 22, 2012, 11:56:36 AM
Hahaha.

Com'on, guys...isn't it possible that we've all misunderstood the Roman Catholic position and hence there are no real contradictions between the Orthodox and the Catholics on many of these issues, and so we should all "translate" to the Catholic Church, since they and they alone have the valid successor to Peter? I mean, it's all right here in this agreed ecumenical statement, which was written by senior theologians...

</marduk post>
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on September 22, 2012, 12:04:41 PM
Hahaha.

Com'on, guys...isn't it possible that we've all misunderstood the Roman Catholic position and hence there are no real contradictions between the Orthodox and the Catholics on many of these issues, and so we should all "translate" to the Catholic Church, since they and they alone have the valid successor to Peter? I mean, it's all right here in this agreed ecumenical statement, which was written by senior theologians...

</marduk post>

(http://petercombe.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/applause1234363884-1.gif)

Someone should really invite Mardukm over here.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 22, 2012, 12:12:32 PM
Mardukm is going bananas on ConstantineTG. I wonder if he'll get suspended.

Who'll get suspended, me or him?  ;D

Seriously, do you think they'll suspend a Papist over an Orthodox sympathizer?

I've had one too many people PM me and say they feel I'm about to get banned.  Honestly, it is a miracle I haven't even gotten a warning the last 2 months since I started my "campaign" to right the wrongs of the Papacy  ;D ;D
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on September 22, 2012, 12:16:10 PM
Mardukm is going bananas on ConstantineTG. I wonder if he'll get suspended.

Who'll get suspended, me or him?  ;D

Seriously, do you think they'll suspend a Papist over an Orthodox sympathizer?

If they've got any sense of justi... oh wait, never mind.

I've had one too many people PM me and say they feel I'm about to get banned.  Honestly, it is a miracle I haven't even gotten a warning the last 2 months since I started my "campaign" to right the wrongs of the Papacy  ;D ;D

No, no, you must not get banned. The show must go on.  :D
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cavaradossi on September 22, 2012, 04:25:08 PM
Someone should really invite Mardukm over here.

He already came here several years ago.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2641
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on September 22, 2012, 04:28:14 PM
Mardukm is going bananas on ConstantineTG. I wonder if he'll get suspended.

I have never seen that happen, no matter how heated his posts become.

On a side note, I really do wish that he would stop using so much bolded and underlined text in every post. There's nothing special about a bolded and underlined segment of red text, when half of your entire post is written that way; instead, that just makes the entire post incredibly hard to read.  :-\  I must confess that I oftentimes skip over or at most merely skim his posts when he writes in such a fashion.

Have you read the part where marduk says CTG is a hypocrite?

That I did. IIRC, he said both "utter hypocrisy" and "reverse uniatism".

I too barely read his posts, they're all so long and predictable.

Me too. Although to be honest, even though I find some of the statements he's made recently to be problematic (and not just the anti-Constantine post), I'm not particularly worried at the moment. I only really worry when he says something problematic and 6 or 7 other posters chime it with "That's so wise" or something like that.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 22, 2012, 05:22:39 PM
Me too. Although to be honest, even though I find some of the statements he's made recently to be problematic (and not just the anti-Constantine post), I'm not particularly worried at the moment. I only really worry when he says something problematic and 6 or 7 other posters chime it with "That's so wise" or something like that.

That is the problem with CAF.  People there act like a bunch of Fundies.  When someone says something they all agree with, they pat each other on the back and treat the guy as if he's a prophet or something.  Not only in this case but even with the Latin traditionalists.  And when you try to correct their error, you're a hypocrite, anti-Pope, Latin hater, etc.

I'm not gonna lie, I do lose my temper often.  But they really make it easy for one to lose their temper.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on September 22, 2012, 06:53:40 PM
That is the problem with CAF. 

Indeed, I had gotten so accustomed to it that it was a bit of a shock recently when it didn't happen. ;D
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 23, 2012, 02:12:59 AM
Oooohhhh, Catherine Grant is laying down the law in the Eastern Catholic Forum.

What is the current over/under that I will get banned?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on September 23, 2012, 02:38:42 AM
Boy...I've never seen anyone so excited to be exiled to internet purgatory.

And weren't you the one who told me that the mods don't pay attention over there? Whoops.  :P
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 23, 2012, 02:47:09 AM
Boy...I've never seen anyone so excited to be exiled to internet purgatory.

And weren't you the one who told me that the mods don't pay attention over there? Whoops.  :P

Catherine lays the beatdown every now and then.  But she isn't as attentive as Thomas Casey of the Traddie forum. Then again knowing the trads, they have quick trigger fingers on the "report this post" link  :P

I mean, c'mon, the thread in question got to page 50 before a mod stepped in.  If that isn't not paying attention, I do not know what is :P
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on September 23, 2012, 05:48:26 AM
One thing I learnt yesterday: whiskey and debating on CAF is an unhappy combination. I was even defeated in debate by marybeloved, which hasn't happened to me ever before. After that I quickly said I needed some sleep and quickly left so save me from losing even more reputation  :)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on September 23, 2012, 06:23:43 AM
One thing I learnt yesterday: whiskey and debating on CAF is an unhappy combination. I was even defeated in debate by marybeloved, which hasn't happened to me ever before. After that I quickly said I needed some sleep and quickly left to save me from losing even more reputation  :)

Accursed time limit on post edits!

Oooohhhh, Catherine Grant is laying down the law in the Eastern Catholic Forum.

What is the current over/under that I will get banned?

In her last post she said that she doesn't care what anyone believes. I mean she didn't mention you, but it was clearly meant for you, I think.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on September 23, 2012, 07:23:41 AM
What is the current over/under that I will get banned?

Boy...I've never seen anyone so excited to be exiled to internet purgatory.

I myself, once upon a time, didn't care too much about whether or not I got banned from CAF. Basically, I just thought to myself "Meh, it wouldn't be much skin off my nose, because OCnet is a much better forum anyhow." But in time the rose-colored glasses came off with regard to OCnet ... you can perhaps relate, since you've been around OCnet for a while yourself. (Granted, now I'm talking about OCnet on a thread that's supposed to be about CAF. But I'll shut up now.)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 23, 2012, 04:43:04 PM
I really don't have anyone on CAF I'd miss if I get banned there that I won't find here, have on facebook, or know their personal email address.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on September 23, 2012, 05:01:08 PM
Yeah...after it became obvious that I would not be returning to the Catholic Church, I got some e-mails from a few people saying "Just in case you get banned, here's how you can contact me if you want to". That was nice. :) Plus, there's a lot we can discuss off-board that is not allowed on CAF (e.g., I was suspended for not liking Islam, which is not really considered a problematic stance for most Eastern Christians, Catholic or Orthodox, but is apparently seen as somewhat "anti-Catholic", in so far as it dissents from the official RCC line and makes some people sad).
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 23, 2012, 05:05:52 PM
Catherine Grant just went through the whole thread and posted another message.  I wonder if I'm going to get something now.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Jetavan on September 23, 2012, 05:16:18 PM
Oooohhhh, Catherine Grant is laying down the law in the Eastern Catholic Forum.

What is the current over/under that I will get banned?
She's watching you.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 23, 2012, 05:29:20 PM
Oooohhhh, Catherine Grant is laying down the law in the Eastern Catholic Forum.

What is the current over/under that I will get banned?
She's watching you.

If she bans me, who'll be left posting in the EC forum at CAF?  :police:
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Shiny on September 23, 2012, 05:30:36 PM
Is this the thread where we can put down other people?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Jetavan on September 23, 2012, 06:15:14 PM
Oooohhhh, Catherine Grant is laying down the law in the Eastern Catholic Forum.

What is the current over/under that I will get banned?
She's watching you.

If she bans me, who'll be left posting in the EC forum at CAF?  :police:
The Holy Spirit? ::)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Tommelomsky on September 23, 2012, 06:20:38 PM
I used to be there too, still got a profile. But thought about it yesterday and it is best to leave the past behind and focus on the future, on prayers and learning the life of becoming and being orthodox.

What they do over there in the past, is their business. Not mine anymore. But: i will pray for them. As i pray for everyone in my intercessions.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on September 23, 2012, 07:03:14 PM
Is this the thread where we can put down other people?

The, as in singular/only...?  ???

To almost make a serious point (fighting my VH1-loving demons which are telling me to post that Rockwell video in response to the "she's watching you" comment) for the consideration of Choy and anyone else who might be in his position, I think Tommy's point about leaving the past behind is a good one, in the sense that we should always make sure that we are converting to something, rather than away from something in our past. Orthodoxy deserves to be/can only truly be approached based on its own merits, not relative to Eastern Catholicism or anything else. Granted, that's easier said than done (I took a good 8-10 months away from the internet, specifically CAF, in trying to discern where I should be, because I know myself well enough to know that that's what I needed to be able to make any decision at all), but ultimately it's the right move, particularly if you have a lot of history in the Eastern Catholic Churches where you no doubt picked up the idea (or maybe were even explicitly told this) that the Eastern unia are really, really close to Orthodoxy, are Orthodox in everything except for union with Rome, or some such variation of that idea. It's really not the case, but that can be hard to grasp if you don't put away Rome-ish things... ;D

(Aside: But then I also wonder sometimes maybe if my own perspective isn't a bit more strict because I took the road less traveled and swam the Nile rather than the Bosphorus, which really is a longer distance to go, in terms of the adjustment from Catholicism, which rightly sees itself as an inheritor of Western tradition build upon a common Graeco-Roman cultural base -- even though they are largely now divorced from its Orthodox expression, to a somewhat more foreign Semitic/non-Hellenized perspective...for instance, reading the Life of St. Shenouda the Archimandrite by Besa is still rather shocking to me, as he's painted as an almost brutally zealous and somewhat cruel and violent man, and I wonder to myself: This is the great saint who first gave Orthodoxy its uniquely Coptic/native expression in Egypt? And I took his name at baptism, so he's my model? But then I calm down a bit and remember that it is still better than Latins, who can be quite severe at any given point in their history, but not in service of Orthodoxy...at least not past a certain point...)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on September 23, 2012, 08:24:37 PM
Catherine Grant just went through the whole thread and posted another message. 

While I don't pretend that mods are perfect, I must say that I was impressed when she mentioned reading over 800 posts (plus regrouping them into various threads).

I wonder if I'm going to get something now.

Hopefully they will take into consideration how much you've contributed to CAF. :) (I mean posts, I won't ask whether you've given money.)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 23, 2012, 09:48:10 PM
My apologies I have turned this thread into a rant fest.  Please forgive me and pray for me.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on September 23, 2012, 09:55:55 PM
There was also a short-lived thread that was closed this morning, and I'm glad it was. In it short life it generated a surprising degree of anti-Orthodox polemics -- particularly surprising given that the OP isn't someone thinking about leaving Catholicism, but someone thinking about joining Catholicism (whilst also considering Orthodoxy).
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 23, 2012, 11:20:20 PM
There was also a short-lived thread that was closed this morning, and I'm glad it was. In it short life it generated a surprising degree of anti-Orthodox polemics -- particularly surprising given that the OP isn't someone thinking about leaving Catholicism, but someone thinking about joining Catholicism (whilst also considering Orthodoxy).

Oh, yeah.  Catherine said that people shouldn't be telling someone to leave Catholicism.  But I wanted to argue the guy who started the thread was neither, so to convince him to become Orthodox isn't really convincing him to leave Catholicism.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on September 24, 2012, 05:51:39 AM
There was also a short-lived thread that was closed this morning, and I'm glad it was. In it short life it generated a surprising degree of anti-Orthodox polemics -- particularly surprising given that the OP isn't someone thinking about leaving Catholicism, but someone thinking about joining Catholicism (whilst also considering Orthodoxy).

Oh, yeah.  Catherine said that people shouldn't be telling someone to leave Catholicism.  But I wanted to argue the guy who started the thread was neither, so to convince him to become Orthodox isn't really convincing him to leave Catholicism.
I know what you mean. I was glad that she closed the thread, given how anti-Orthodox many of the posts were, but I didn't really get her post. In fact, some readers might interpret what she said as a victory for the anti-Orthodox polemicists.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Tommelomsky on September 24, 2012, 07:33:34 AM
Peter J: what i have learned from my journey that in a month from today is a half year (where did the time go, hey clock..easy! Oh..well) is that it just is a good thing to not let it affect you. Just offer it up to God about those who comes up with anti-comments.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: JoeS2 on September 24, 2012, 09:15:26 AM
Mardukm is going bananas on ConstantineTG. I wonder if he'll get suspended.

After many years I went over to CAF just to see the discussion on "What separates Eastern Catholicism from Eastern Orthodoxy? "

Its as if I never left that topic on that forum.  Its the same stuff being regurgitated over and over again.  In some way it looks fruitless and others sad.

This life as an Eastern Catholic, half way in Orthodoxy and the other in Roman Catholicism.  How does one keep from becoming scysophrenic<sp?> ?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on September 24, 2012, 12:35:29 PM
This life as an Eastern Catholic, half way in Orthodoxy and the other in Roman Catholicism.  How does one keep from becoming scysophrenic<sp?> ?

Personally, I don't view Eastern Catholicism as any sort of ideal situation, but I'm not about to become one of the pioneering individuals who "return", as it were, to Orthodoxy (at least not at this point; I can't say what the future may hold). In short, you could say I'm a hold-out.

Anyhow, you can perhaps understand why, when speaking to someone who is Orthodox, I don't try to convince them to come over to Catholicism. As a matter of fact, it occurred to me earlier today that even if I were speaking to a Protestant who was planning to join Orthodoxy, but hadn't done so yet, I still wouldn't try to persuade him/her to join Catholicism instead.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on September 24, 2012, 12:49:15 PM
Since this is a general thread about CAF anyway, I think I'm being contacted by a creep there. Really strange pm's about what dresses I wear and whether I'm female.

Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on September 24, 2012, 12:50:48 PM
Ew. Report that to a moderator immediately, Cyrillic. Even if you did wear dresses, that's none of his business!  ;D
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on September 24, 2012, 12:55:43 PM
Ew. Report that to a moderator immediately, Cyrillic. Even if you did wear dresses, that's none of his business!  ;D

Only a very, very sick person would want to see me in a dress ;D

Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 24, 2012, 01:26:16 PM
After many years I went over to CAF just to see the discussion on "What separates Eastern Catholicism from Eastern Orthodoxy? "

Its as if I never left that topic on that forum.  Its the same stuff being regurgitated over and over again.  In some way it looks fruitless and others sad.

This life as an Eastern Catholic, half way in Orthodoxy and the other in Roman Catholicism.  How does one keep from becoming scysophrenic<sp?> ?

Schizophrenic.

Yes, the life of an Eastern Catholic is a hard one.  We are both Catholic and Orthodox and at the same time, we are neither.  We are in communion with Rome (Catholic) and we live by the praxis of our mother Orthodox Church, yet the Orthodox deny we are Orthodox because we are in communion with Rome, and many Roman Catholics do not consider us fully Catholic because we are not Roman.

It is a hard and sad life.  But the challenge really helps us grow spiritually.  We have a mission in this world and that is to bridge the gap between the divided Church.  It is not an easy one but someone has to do it.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on September 24, 2012, 01:36:44 PM
Since this is a general thread about CAF anyway, I think I'm being contacted by a creep there. Really strange pm's about what dresses I wear and whether I'm female.

Or maybe it's ad/spam. But in either case, report it.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on September 24, 2012, 01:41:08 PM
Since this is a general thread about CAF anyway, I think I'm being contacted by a creep there. Really strange pm's about what dresses I wear and whether I'm female.

Or maybe it's ad/spam. But in either case, report it.

He keeps sending it, he's send 6 or 7 pm's so far and he has 40-something posts. I can't see how to report it, and I don't know whether I should take the pains to do so.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on September 24, 2012, 01:41:45 PM
After many years I went over to CAF just to see the discussion on "What separates Eastern Catholicism from Eastern Orthodoxy? "

Its as if I never left that topic on that forum.  Its the same stuff being regurgitated over and over again.  In some way it looks fruitless and others sad.

This life as an Eastern Catholic, half way in Orthodoxy and the other in Roman Catholicism.  How does one keep from becoming scysophrenic<sp?> ?

Schizophrenic.

Yes, the life of an Eastern Catholic is a hard one.
 We are both Catholic and Orthodox and at the same time, we are neither.  We are in communion with Rome (Catholic) and we live by the praxis of our mother Orthodox Church, yet the Orthodox deny we are Orthodox because we are in communion with Rome, and many Roman Catholics do not consider us fully Catholic because we are not Roman.

It is a hard and sad life.  But the challenge really helps us grow spiritually.  We have a mission in this world and that is to bridge the gap between the divided Church.  It is not an easy one but someone has to do it.

When people say that being Eastern Catholic is hard, I think the natural response is "But being Christian in general is hard." I think perhaps a better word to describe Eastern Catholicism is "conflicted".
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on September 24, 2012, 01:42:36 PM
I'm sorry, but how can you bridge the gap between East and West while being in union with one and not the other? A bridge that is only connected at one end is not a very good bridge. (And of course you can't be united with both, as the Orthodox will not unite with those who do not share their faith.)

I don't understand how or why the ECCs exist. I've heard that "bridge" explanation a thousand times, and it still makes no sense. You're called to be something you literally can't be, and then Rome points to you as evidence of an "Orthodoxy" that does not exist in its communion. It makes zero sense. I'm sorry, but it is really odd.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on September 24, 2012, 01:46:04 PM
I don't understand how or why the ECCs exist.

Sheep-stealing, that's why.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on September 24, 2012, 01:56:28 PM
Well, yeah, okay...I didn't mean it that literally... :)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on September 24, 2012, 02:13:12 PM
I don't understand how or why the ECCs exist.

Well like I say, I don't see myself as a pioneer so much as a hold-out. I don't run around in front of Orthodox yelling "Look at me, I'm Eastern Catholic! Don't you want to be Eastern Catholic too?" But if someone is already Eastern Catholic, then I think it makes sense to stay put rather than "going home to Orthodoxy" (not that the latter course of action isn't also appealing).
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 24, 2012, 02:34:31 PM
I don't understand how or why the ECCs exist.

Sheep-stealing, that's why.

We're a stepping stone for RCs into Orthodoxy :P
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 24, 2012, 02:35:13 PM
When people say that being Eastern Catholic is hard, I think the natural response is "But being Christian in general is hard." I think perhaps a better word to describe Eastern Catholicism is "conflicted".

Well, if every Christian is to take up his/her cross, ours is a 3-bar cross ;)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 24, 2012, 02:38:39 PM
I'm sorry, but how can you bridge the gap between East and West while being in union with one and not the other? A bridge that is only connected at one end is not a very good bridge. (And of course you can't be united with both, as the Orthodox will not unite with those who do not share their faith.)

I don't understand how or why the ECCs exist. I've heard that "bridge" explanation a thousand times, and it still makes no sense. You're called to be something you literally can't be, and then Rome points to you as evidence of an "Orthodoxy" that does not exist in its communion. It makes zero sense. I'm sorry, but it is really odd.

Not for a lack of trying.  If I remember my history right, the Union of Brest didn't intend to break with the Orthodox and that some of the Bishops backed away from the Union when they realized that they cannot achieve communion both ways.

And of course the Melkites have tried again recently.

If I remember correctly, Metropolitan Andriy Shyptytsky said in the past that the UGCC will not pursue the Patriarchate if there is a canonical Ukrainian Patriarch in Kyiv, Catholic or Orthodox.

I do understand your points.  But union is not easy nor simple.  In fact, we don't know what will work.  But our mission in life is to try.  Maybe one day we'll figure it out and get it right.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on September 24, 2012, 02:39:48 PM
Fair enough. I'm not saying you shouldn't do what you feel is right; you absolutely should. I'm just saying I don't understand it at all. I didn't understand it when I was Roman Catholic visiting the Ruthenians, and I don't understand it now that I have gone home to Orthodoxy.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 24, 2012, 03:11:13 PM
Fair enough. I'm not saying you shouldn't do what you feel is right; you absolutely should. I'm just saying I don't understand it at all. I didn't understand it when I was Roman Catholic visiting the Ruthenians, and I don't understand it now that I have gone home to Orthodoxy.

I don't understand it either :P

This of it this way, with the Philippine Revolution we had heroes who were in the country fighting oppressive Spain, and we had heroes who left the country and did their work outside, like Jose Rizal (although he did eventually return).  ECs remain within the country fighting the oppressive regime ;)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on September 24, 2012, 03:20:06 PM
You mean the one you're in union with?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 24, 2012, 03:42:27 PM
You mean the one you're in union with?

Yes ;)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Jetavan on September 24, 2012, 03:52:57 PM
Fair enough. I'm not saying you shouldn't do what you feel is right; you absolutely should. I'm just saying I don't understand it at all. I didn't understand it when I was Roman Catholic visiting the Ruthenians, and I don't understand it now that I have gone home to Orthodoxy.

I don't understand it either :P

This of it this way, with the Philippine Revolution we had heroes who were in the country fighting oppressive Spain, and we had heroes who left the country and did their work outside, like Jose Rizal (although he did eventually return).  ECs remain within the country fighting the oppressive regime ;)
What's so oppressive about it? The Pope is way over in Rome; I'm here in Miami, or San Diego.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 24, 2012, 04:28:22 PM
What's so oppressive about it? The Pope is way over in Rome; I'm here in Miami, or San Diego.

He and his canons :P silly Latins think they can tell us what we should believe :P
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: stanley123 on September 24, 2012, 04:48:02 PM
I don't understand how or why the ECCs exist.

Sheep-stealing, that's why.
Would WRO be considered as sheep stealing?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on September 24, 2012, 05:06:46 PM
I don't understand how or why the ECCs exist.

Sheep-stealing, that's why.
Would WRO be considered as sheep stealing?

I think Cyrillic was overgeneralizing a bit. The question was why do ECCs exist; but in the case of the Maronites or the Italo-Byzantines (i.e. the Italo-Greek-Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church in our day), sheep stealing had little to do with it.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on September 24, 2012, 05:12:06 PM
I'm sorry, but how can you bridge the gap between East and West while being in union with one and not the other? A bridge that is only connected at one end is not a very good bridge. (And of course you can't be united with both, as the Orthodox will not unite with those who do not share their faith.)

I don't understand how or why the ECCs exist. I've heard that "bridge" explanation a thousand times, and it still makes no sense. You're called to be something you literally can't be, and then Rome points to you as evidence of an "Orthodoxy" that does not exist in its communion. It makes zero sense. I'm sorry, but it is really odd.

Not for a lack of trying.  If I remember my history right, the Union of Brest didn't intend to break with the Orthodox and that some of the Bishops backed away from the Union when they realized that they cannot achieve communion both ways.

And of course the Melkites have tried again recently.

If I remember correctly, Metropolitan Andriy Shyptytsky said in the past that the UGCC will not pursue the Patriarchate if there is a canonical Ukrainian Patriarch in Kyiv, Catholic or Orthodox.

I do understand your points.  But union is not easy nor simple.  In fact, we don't know what will work.  But our mission in life is to try.  Maybe one day we'll figure it out and get it right.

I disagree: our mission is to deal with (i.e. live with) the consequences of the Union of the Brest and the various other unions, not to bring about a new Union of Brest.

That's what I meant about being hold-outs rather than pioneers.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on September 24, 2012, 05:17:28 PM
I don't understand how or why the ECCs exist.

Sheep-stealing, that's why.

We're a stepping stone for RCs into Orthodoxy :P

Not to get off on a tangent, but I have doubts about that being a good thing. Seems like reverse uniatism.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on September 24, 2012, 05:43:17 PM
Why do you bring that up, Peter J? I thought the general consensus in the last thread you made about it was that it doesn't really exist?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on September 24, 2012, 07:07:57 PM
Why do you bring that up, Peter J? I thought the general consensus in the last thread you made about it was that it doesn't really exist?

Sorry. Sometimes I forget my place.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 24, 2012, 07:08:20 PM
It is indeed hard to be authentically "Orthodox" while in communion with Rome.  But perhaps it is the calling for some of us to try and get Rome back to Orthodoxy.  Even though I have to deal with all the Bookcats in real life.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: JoeS2 on September 24, 2012, 07:28:48 PM
It is indeed hard to be authentically "Orthodox" while in communion with Rome.  But perhaps it is the calling for some of us to try and get Rome back to Orthodoxy.  Even though I have to deal with all the Bookcats in real life.

Trying to get Rome back to Orthodoxy would be a monumental challenge. But, in my opinion the Eastern Catholic slice of the Roman pie occupies a very small portion of that pie,  too small maybe to make an influence on that change.  What does the Vatican actually think of the Byzantines in the Roman orbit?  How are they treated?  Are they considered as quaint and interesting or an anachronism of sorts.  What does go through the minds of the Magisterium with regards to their Eastern Brothers?  Do they resent the fact that the Eastern Catholics dont have to comply with the dogmas set down by past papal declarations?  Just some thoughts going through my dusty mind.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 24, 2012, 07:38:38 PM
It is indeed hard to be authentically "Orthodox" while in communion with Rome.  But perhaps it is the calling for some of us to try and get Rome back to Orthodoxy.  Even though I have to deal with all the Bookcats in real life.

Trying to get Rome back to Orthodoxy would be a monumental challenge. But, in my opinion the Eastern Catholic slice of the Roman pie occupies a very small portion of that pie,  too small maybe to make an influence on that change.  What does the Vatican actually think of the Byzantines in the Roman orbit?  How are they treated?  Are they considered as quaint and interesting or an anachronism of sorts.  What does go through the minds of the Magisterium with regards to their Eastern Brothers?  Do they resent the fact that the Eastern Catholics dont have to comply with the dogmas set down by past papal declarations?  Just some thoughts going through my dusty mind.

We need the faith of a mustard seed, right?  It won't happen overnight, it may happen in another 1000 years.  Who knows.  I do believe that the Eastern praxis is the correct expression of the Christian faith.  Perhaps if we Eastern Catholics become authentically "Orthdox" as much as we can, Roman Catholics will see the truth and move en masse to Eastern Churches.  Rome will eventually relent.  Most RCs will never give up communion with Rome to even consider Orthodoxy.  So if ECs are as close to Orthodoxy as they possibly can it would be a smooth move for them.  I believe the RC praxis won't last in a secular world that we are living in.  Less and less people can be guilted to do the right thing.  When the ECs become the dominant Churches in the Catholic Communion, then we can restore Orthodoxy in the Catholic Church and reunite with the Orthodox Churches.

To tell you the truth, sometimes I don't know why some of the Eastern Catholic Bishops themselves take all these things from Rome knowing their mother Orthodox Churches are right there.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 24, 2012, 08:28:11 PM
Aramis has been suspended again.  Why?  I can't see anything wrong he did.  Man, I should try walking on water later.  I mean, check his previous posts and if that gets suspended I don't know why I'm still around.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on September 24, 2012, 08:39:59 PM
In my experience of being suspended, the mod will send you a PM containing the offending posts, which are otherwise removed from your posting history and the thread in which they originally appeared. So you will not be able to see what got him suspended by looking at his posts.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 24, 2012, 08:41:21 PM
In my experience of being suspended, the mod will send you a PM containing the offending posts, which are otherwise removed from your posting history and the thread in which they originally appeared. So you will not be able to see what got him suspended by looking at his posts.

But it doesn't look like he's headed into anything heated with his posts.

I've had a chunk of my posts deleted the past couple of days.  But I am still alive and kicking.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cavaradossi on September 24, 2012, 09:53:34 PM
Wow, the list of suspended members grows. Now even Byzcathcantor has been suspended. I see that they did not spare you from the same fate, Constantine. Most unfortunate.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 24, 2012, 09:56:24 PM
Good thing I haven't started attempting crossing the river right across the office :D

Okay, so who won the prize pool?  ;D ;D
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Papist on September 24, 2012, 10:30:00 PM
It is indeed hard to be authentically "Orthodox" while in communion with Rome.  But perhaps it is the calling for some of us to try and get Rome back to Orthodoxy.  Even though I have to deal with all the Bookcats in real life.

Trying to get Rome back to Orthodoxy would be a monumental challenge. But, in my opinion the Eastern Catholic slice of the Roman pie occupies a very small portion of that pie,  too small maybe to make an influence on that change.  What does the Vatican actually think of the Byzantines in the Roman orbit?  How are they treated?  Are they considered as quaint and interesting or an anachronism of sorts.  What does go through the minds of the Magisterium with regards to their Eastern Brothers?  Do they resent the fact that the Eastern Catholics dont have to comply with the dogmas set down by past papal declarations?  Just some thoughts going through my dusty mind.

We need the faith of a mustard seed, right?  It won't happen overnight, it may happen in another 1000 years.  Who knows.  I do believe that the Eastern praxis is the correct expression of the Christian faith.  Perhaps if we Eastern Catholics become authentically "Orthdox" as much as we can, Roman Catholics will see the truth and move en masse to Eastern Churches.  Rome will eventually relent.  Most RCs will never give up communion with Rome to even consider Orthodoxy.  So if ECs are as close to Orthodoxy as they possibly can it would be a smooth move for them.  I believe the RC praxis won't last in a secular world that we are living in.  Less and less people can be guilted to do the right thing.  When the ECs become the dominant Churches in the Catholic Communion, then we can restore Orthodoxy in the Catholic Church and reunite with the Orthodox Churches.

To tell you the truth, sometimes I don't know why some of the Eastern Catholic Bishops themselves take all these things from Rome knowing their mother Orthodox Churches are right there.
Nah, too many of us are Thomists through and through. :)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Apotheoun on September 25, 2012, 02:16:35 AM
Mardukm is going bananas on ConstantineTG. I wonder if he'll get suspended.

I have never seen that happen, no matter how heated his posts become.

On a side note, I really do wish that he would stop using so much bolded and underlined text in every post. There's nothing special about a bolded and underlined segment of red text, when half of your entire post is written that way; instead, that just makes the entire post incredibly hard to read.  :-\  I must confess that I oftentimes skip over or at most merely skim his posts when he writes in such a fashion.
(http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd362/theomimesis/thumbs_up.jpg)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Apotheoun on September 25, 2012, 02:25:53 AM
Yeah...after it became obvious that I would not be returning to the Catholic Church, I got some e-mails from a few people saying "Just in case you get banned, here's how you can contact me if you want to". That was nice. :) Plus, there's a lot we can discuss off-board that is not allowed on CAF (e.g., I was suspended for not liking Islam, which is not really considered a problematic stance for most Eastern Christians, Catholic or Orthodox, but is apparently seen as somewhat "anti-Catholic", in so far as it dissents from the official RCC line and makes some people sad).
I remember one of those Islam threads.  I suppose that I was lucky in that I did not get suspended, but it probably is hard to suspend a person for saying things like:

"Islamic monotheism is not true, but is instead false, because it involves an explicit denial of the tri-hypostatic existence of God."

and

"It is impossible to adore God without Christ."

 ;D
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on September 25, 2012, 06:03:02 AM
Wow, the list of suspended members grows. Now even Byzcathcantor has been suspended. I see that they did not spare you from the same fate, Constantine. Most unfortunate.

Yeah, Constantine, Byzcathcantor, and Bookcat. I'm surprised they included Byzcathcantor (no offense Constantine ;D).
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cavaradossi on September 25, 2012, 08:42:53 AM
Mardukm is going bananas on ConstantineTG. I wonder if he'll get suspended.

I have never seen that happen, no matter how heated his posts become.

On a side note, I really do wish that he would stop using so much bolded and underlined text in every post. There's nothing special about a bolded and underlined segment of red text, when half of your entire post is written that way; instead, that just makes the entire post incredibly hard to read.  :-\  I must confess that I oftentimes skip over or at most merely skim his posts when he writes in such a fashion.
(http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd362/theomimesis/thumbs_up.jpg)


I could have used your input recently on CAF. They all got so upset with me when I told them that the essence of God is so radically different from creation that it isn't essence, it doesn't be, and it doesn't exist (something which I think is plainly clear from the Eastern tradition). ;D

I was accused of being a crypto-monophysite, and of being 'too lost in philosophy' (a strange accusation since I never quoted any philosophers but only quoted the Church fathers). Then, when I gave them a Palamas quote where he explicitly says that God is not nature, if we are nature, and God is not being if we are being, I was told that Palamas, while being a saint worthy of veneration in the Eastern Catholic Churches, often was confused, repetitive, and seemingly self-contradicting such that he needs to be interpreted correctly (code for in line with Thomas Aquinas, is how I interpret that).  And what is the correct way to interpret that passage? I was told, instead of that passage meaning that the essence of God is not essence in any sense of the word, and that it does not be in any sense of the word, as the Eastern exegetical tradition of pseudo-Dionysus would suggest, that the passage from Palamas is actually highlighting in a different way the doctrine of analogy, like what Aquinas taught. When I denied that this was true, I was accused of not understanding Aquinas (after already being told that I didn't understand the Cappadocians or Palamas) despite having studied one of his best explanations of his teaching on analogy, from the disputed questions on the simplicity of God, with several of my friends who are Thomists. Some of the interpretations I saw of the the Eastern Fathers reminded me particularly of this image Isa uses all the time:
(http://fingercandymedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/square-peg-round-hole.jpg)

O weh! I think I need a drink.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 25, 2012, 12:44:44 PM
Wow, the list of suspended members grows. Now even Byzcathcantor has been suspended. I see that they did not spare you from the same fate, Constantine. Most unfortunate.

Yeah, Constantine, Byzcathcantor, and Bookcat. I'm surprised they included Byzcathcantor (no offense Constantine ;D).

Hey, I'm quite surprised myself it took this long for something to happen to me :P
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on September 25, 2012, 01:20:30 PM
Wow, the list of suspended members grows. Now even Byzcathcantor has been suspended. I see that they did not spare you from the same fate, Constantine. Most unfortunate.

Yeah, Constantine, Byzcathcantor, and Bookcat. I'm surprised they included Byzcathcantor (no offense Constantine ;D).

Hey, I'm quite surprised myself it took this long for something to happen to me :P

Almost all the active posters got suspended, so this one doesn't count  ;)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: JoeS2 on September 25, 2012, 05:40:17 PM
Wow, the list of suspended members grows. Now even Byzcathcantor has been suspended. I see that they did not spare you from the same fate, Constantine. Most unfortunate.

Yeah, Constantine, Byzcathcantor, and Bookcat. I'm surprised they included Byzcathcantor (no offense Constantine ;D).

Hey, I'm quite surprised myself it took this long for something to happen to me :P

Welcome to the club !
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on September 26, 2012, 12:50:11 PM
The mod's watching everyone and everything pretty closely.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 26, 2012, 12:52:54 PM
Yeah, well, they have been off the ball for a few weeks and all hell broke loose.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on September 26, 2012, 12:55:06 PM
Yeah, well, they have been off the ball for a few weeks and all hell broke loose.

Yes, however , it made things a lot more interesting to read. I learnt a few things in those threads.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 26, 2012, 12:56:12 PM
Yeah, well, they have been off the ball for a few weeks and all hell broke loose.

Yes, however , it made things a lot more interesting to read. I learnt a few things in those threads.

Like a few unChristian things? :P
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on September 26, 2012, 01:14:08 PM
Yeah, well, they have been off the ball for a few weeks and all hell broke loose.

Yes, however , it made things a lot more interesting to read. I learnt a few things in those threads.

Like a few unChristian things? :P

Like
how to emphasise your post to make a point
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: mike on September 26, 2012, 01:17:25 PM

Like
how to emphasise your post to make a point

You mean "trigger an attack of epilepsy".
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on September 26, 2012, 01:59:55 PM

Like
how to emphasise your post to make a point

You mean "trigger an attack of epilepsy".

I was just doing like mardukm  :)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on September 29, 2012, 04:05:12 AM
Like Cronos it devours its own. Marybeloved and fames have been banned.  Cyrillic, Green_umbrella, Ignatius_Maron and some other guy were banned too. All in one night!
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Tommelomsky on September 29, 2012, 08:18:46 AM
Well..Glory To God in all things. That forum is the past. This here is now and the future.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on September 29, 2012, 08:49:58 AM
The thing about "discussion" is that sometimes it isn't.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on September 29, 2012, 09:05:22 AM
The thing about "discussion" is that sometimes it isn't.

Huh?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Αριστοκλής on September 29, 2012, 09:23:26 AM
Like Cronos it devours its own. Marybeloved and fames have been banned.  Cyrillic, Green_umbrella, Ignatius_Maron and some other guy were banned too. All in one night!

Sounds like a Second CAF Crusade over there. I among many others here was banned in the First CAF Crusade. Nothing new over there, it seems.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on September 29, 2012, 09:28:14 AM
Like Cronos it devours its own. Marybeloved and fames have been banned.  Cyrillic, Green_umbrella, Ignatius_Maron and some other guy were banned too. All in one night!

Sounds like a Second CAF Crusade over there. I among many others here was banned in the First CAF Crusade. Nothing new over there, it seems.

Looks more like Stalinist purges than crusades. I like this forum better anyway.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on September 29, 2012, 09:48:53 AM
The thing about "discussion" is that sometimes it isn't.

Huh?

Well, for example, many posters simply decide by fiat that the terms "Roman Catholic" and "Latin Catholic" are interchangeable. Would you consider that "discussion"?

P.S. Oddly enough, a little while ago, while I was thinking about this, I noticed the thread Roman Catholicism (RC), Eastern Orthodoxy (EO), and Oriental Orthodoxy (OO) on OCnet, in which "Roman Catholic" is being used to mean everyone in communion with Rome. This is, arguably, just as bad since there's still no real discussion of what "Roman Catholic" means.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on September 29, 2012, 11:00:22 AM
You are essentially who you are in communion with. That doesn't mean you aren't your own "sui juris" churches, technically, but that, as you are in union with Rome, their heterodoxy is adopted by you. If you don't like it, stop being in union with Rome.

I have no problem being called OO and not specifically "Coptic", because we are, after all, the same Church, even if our customs vary quite a bit. "Coptic" only makes sense to specify if talking about distinctive traits of the Egyptian church, which are all in the realm of praxis, not dogma, since the faith is the same. If the faith is not the same between the Eastern Catholics and the Latin Catholics, then what does that tell you about the health of that communion?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on September 29, 2012, 12:10:23 PM
You are essentially who you are in communion with. That doesn't mean you aren't your own "sui juris" churches, technically, but that, as you are in union with Rome, their heterodoxy is adopted by you. If you don't like it, stop being in union with Rome.

Certainly, if Rome is heterodox. But since Eastern Catholics don't believe that Rome is heterodox that's really not the issue here.

I have no problem being called OO and not specifically "Coptic", because we are, after all, the same Church, even if our customs vary quite a bit. "Coptic" only makes sense to specify if talking about distinctive traits of the Egyptian church, which are all in the realm of praxis, not dogma, since the faith is the same. If the faith is not the same between the Eastern Catholics and the Latin Catholics, then what does that tell you about the health of that communion?

Here, I think, we get to the main issue. If "Roman Catholic" and "Latin Catholic" are synonymous, which is what many posters claim both here and on CAF, then saying that Eastern Catholics are Roman Catholics is like saying that Coptic Orthodox are Armenian.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 29, 2012, 12:11:23 PM
You are essentially who you are in communion with. That doesn't mean you aren't your own "sui juris" churches, technically, but that, as you are in union with Rome, their heterodoxy is adopted by you. If you don't like it, stop being in union with Rome.

I have no problem being called OO and not specifically "Coptic", because we are, after all, the same Church, even if our customs vary quite a bit. "Coptic" only makes sense to specify if talking about distinctive traits of the Egyptian church, which are all in the realm of praxis, not dogma, since the faith is the same. If the faith is not the same between the Eastern Catholics and the Latin Catholics, then what does that tell you about the health of that communion?

Why do the ECs have to be infected by Rome's heterodoxy?  Why can't Rome be infected with the ECs Orthodoxy?  I thought darkness cannot defeat light.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on September 29, 2012, 12:17:53 PM
Why do the ECs have to be infected by Rome's heterodoxy?  Why can't Rome be infected with the ECs Orthodoxy?

Because that's not reality? That's not actually what's happening/happened. It's your communion with Rome that makes you "Catholic", not Rome's communion with you. Because of that, so long as Rome embraces heterodoxy (and they don't show any signs of returning to Orthodoxy), and you are not allowed to teach against it, you are likewise heterodox. Your existence as U-word removed ensures that you will be kept beholden to Rome's heresies.

Quote
I thought darkness cannot defeat light.

And indeed darkness has not defeated the Orthodox Church.
(http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/Themes/Pascha2010/images/warnwarn.gif) For having used the U-word you are being warned for 40 days.

Michał Kalina
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on September 29, 2012, 12:28:01 PM
^^ Thought we weren't supposed to use the U-word.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on September 29, 2012, 12:32:54 PM
You are essentially who you are in communion with. That doesn't mean you aren't your own "sui juris" churches, technically, but that, as you are in union with Rome, their heterodoxy is adopted by you. If you don't like it, stop being in union with Rome.

I have no problem being called OO and not specifically "Coptic", because we are, after all, the same Church, even if our customs vary quite a bit. "Coptic" only makes sense to specify if talking about distinctive traits of the Egyptian church, which are all in the realm of praxis, not dogma, since the faith is the same. If the faith is not the same between the Eastern Catholics and the Latin Catholics, then what does that tell you about the health of that communion?

Why do the ECs have to be infected by Rome's heterodoxy?  Why can't Rome be infected with the ECs Orthodoxy?  I thought darkness cannot defeat light.

Actually, if one group (say the Latin Church) is heterodox, and another group that it is in full communion with (say the ECs) is orthodox, it is almost certain that some degree of infection (infection?) would happen in each direction. Possibly a lot, possibly a little, but surely some.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: JoeS2 on September 29, 2012, 12:36:56 PM


Why do the ECs have to be infected by Rome's heterodoxy?  Why can't Rome be infected with the ECs Orthodoxy?  I thought darkness cannot defeat light.

Well for one reason, Rome's size by itself is power and that power can be used to persuade the Eastern churches to comply with their dogmas.  

What I find most perplexing is, if the Eastern Catholic churches are allowed to keep their Orthodox beliefs how can that square with the newer Roman Catholic dogmas and yet be in communion?  Its like living in a parallel universe, a parallel theology, a parallel way of thinking.  As an Orthodox Chrisitian I find this quite confusing.  Receiting the Creed in it's original form on Sundays and knowing only a short way away it is being receited with the Filioque can be haunting.  I cant imagine living in this parallel universe and not having doubts about my beliefs.


Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 29, 2012, 12:38:43 PM
Why do the ECs have to be infected by Rome's heterodoxy?  Why can't Rome be infected with the ECs Orthodoxy?

Because that's not reality? That's not actually what's happening/happened. It's your communion with Rome that makes you "Catholic", not Rome's communion with you. Because of that, so long as Rome embraces heterodoxy (and they don't show any signs of returning to Orthodoxy), and you are not allowed to teach against it, you are likewise heterodox. Your existence as uniates ensures that you will be kept beholden to Rome's heresies.

Quote
I thought darkness cannot defeat light.

And indeed darkness has not defeated the Orthodox Church.

It doesn't matter what the past is.  It doesn't mean the future cannot be different.  We just need ECs to become Orthodox in faith.  This is how union will be achieved.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 29, 2012, 12:39:15 PM


Why do the ECs have to be infected by Rome's heterodoxy?  Why can't Rome be infected with the ECs Orthodoxy?  I thought darkness cannot defeat light.

Well for one reason, Rome's size by itself is power and that power can be used to persuade the Eastern churches to comply with their dogmas.  

What I find most perplexing is, if the Eastern Catholic churches are allowed to keep their Orthodox beliefs how can that square with the newer Roman Catholic dogmas and yet be in communion?  Its like living in a parallel universe, a parallel theology, a parallel way of thinking.  As an Orthodox Chrisitian I find this quite confusing.  Receiting the Creed in it's original form on Sundays and knowing only a short way away it is being receited with the Filioque can be haunting.  I cant imagine living in this parallel universe and not having doubts about my beliefs.




Pagan Rome was larger than the early Christian movement.  We all know how that turned out.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Iconodule on September 29, 2012, 12:41:42 PM


Why do the ECs have to be infected by Rome's heterodoxy?  Why can't Rome be infected with the ECs Orthodoxy?  I thought darkness cannot defeat light.

Well for one reason, Rome's size by itself is power and that power can be used to persuade the Eastern churches to comply with their dogmas.  

What I find most perplexing is, if the Eastern Catholic churches are allowed to keep their Orthodox beliefs how can that square with the newer Roman Catholic dogmas and yet be in communion?  Its like living in a parallel universe, a parallel theology, a parallel way of thinking.  As an Orthodox Chrisitian I find this quite confusing.  Receiting the Creed in it's original form on Sundays and knowing only a short way away it is being receited with the Filioque can be haunting.  I cant imagine living in this parallel universe and not having doubts about my beliefs.




Pagan Rome was larger than the early Christian movement.  We all know how that turned out.

You have it backwards.
The Church converted the pagans, then communed them.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on September 29, 2012, 12:48:27 PM
Why do the ECs have to be infected by Rome's heterodoxy?  Why can't Rome be infected with the ECs Orthodoxy?

Because that's not reality? That's not actually what's happening/happened. It's your communion with Rome that makes you "Catholic", not Rome's communion with you. Because of that, so long as Rome embraces heterodoxy (and they don't show any signs of returning to Orthodoxy), and you are not allowed to teach against it, you are likewise heterodox. Your existence as uniates ensures that you will be kept beholden to Rome's heresies.

Quote
I thought darkness cannot defeat light.

And indeed darkness has not defeated the Orthodox Church.

It doesn't matter what the past is.  It doesn't mean the future cannot be different.  We just need ECs to become Orthodox in faith.  This is how union will be achieved.

This isn't a matter of past or future. It is in the nature of your communion. You are in communion with people who openly embrace heterodox beliefs, and they dictate to you what you can and cannot teach. If you're fine with that, good for you, but I find it hard to believe that you really don't understand why it can't be that Rome is more Orthodox or becoming more Orthodox due to the presence of the ECCs, when the ECCs are not Orthodox because of the nature of the Roman communion does not allow them to be. And without the Roman communion, you don't exist...
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on September 29, 2012, 01:52:34 PM
What I find most perplexing is, if the Eastern Catholic churches are allowed to keep their Orthodox beliefs how can that square with the newer Roman Catholic dogmas and yet be in communion?

For me, what's confusing is this whole notion that Latin Catholics are heterodox from an Eastern Catholic p.o.v. Unless I'm just misunderstanding what choy and dzheremi are talking about here.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Iconodule on September 29, 2012, 01:56:38 PM
What I find most perplexing is, if the Eastern Catholic churches are allowed to keep their Orthodox beliefs how can that square with the newer Roman Catholic dogmas and yet be in communion?

For me, what's confusing is this whole notion that Latin Catholics are heterodox from an Eastern Catholic p.o.v. Unless I'm just misunderstanding what choy and dzheremi are talking about here.

It doesn't make sense but it does seem to be a natural conclusion if one takes, say, the Zoghby declaration seriously.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on September 29, 2012, 01:59:30 PM
I can't speak for Choy, but I'm saying that Eastern Catholics and Latin Catholics are both heterodox. The Latins are not becoming "more Orthodox" because of their communion with the ECCs, because neither are Orthodox in the first place. To the extent that ECCs can be said to be closer to Orthodoxy in their praxis or theology due to their roots in actual Orthodox churches, I suppose it makes sense to say that the Latins are heterodox from an ECC perspective (cf. the Zoghby initiative, mentioned by Iconodule), but that wasn't my point.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Marc1152 on September 29, 2012, 02:14:12 PM
Oooohhhh, Catherine Grant is laying down the law in the Eastern Catholic Forum.

What is the current over/under that I will get banned?

You do know that they read this forum..

(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRfBYFz6s4NinlsXXVcsqrZWQ5G1Bzp6x-VZIlycDsdHPyR0q3n)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: JoeS2 on September 29, 2012, 03:17:42 PM


(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRfBYFz6s4NinlsXXVcsqrZWQ5G1Bzp6x-VZIlycDsdHPyR0q3n)

Spies everywhere.  Hi Catherine!!!!!  Remember me? 
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 29, 2012, 04:33:58 PM
Oooohhhh, Catherine Grant is laying down the law in the Eastern Catholic Forum.

What is the current over/under that I will get banned?

You do know that they read this forum..

(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRfBYFz6s4NinlsXXVcsqrZWQ5G1Bzp6x-VZIlycDsdHPyR0q3n)

I do know there is that possibility.  Did I say anything bad against any CAF mod?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Green_Umbrella on September 29, 2012, 08:46:30 PM
Like Cronos it devours its own. Marybeloved and fames have been banned.  Cyrillic, Green_umbrella, Ignatius_Maron and some other guy were banned too. All in one night!

What did your ban say?

My ban says...

Your account has been locked for the following reason:
circumvention of ban

This change will be lifted: Never


I do not know how this could be because I have never been a member so obviously never banned before. I had no ban to circumvent. The only thing I can think is talking about my ban on that forum on this forum? I suppose. You could have at least offered to sell me an Indulgence on the way out but that is fine CAF. And I have no doubt you will read this.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on September 29, 2012, 09:46:45 PM
I do not know how this could be because I have never been a member so obviously never banned before. I had no ban to circumvent.

Then perhaps it was just a case of mistaken identity.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cavaradossi on September 30, 2012, 02:23:33 AM
I honestly can't complain about Catherine Grant, as she has always been lenient with me, even when I let myself get dragged into heated exchanges (and she also writes with a rather cordial tone in her PMs). I have never received more than two formal warnings from her (both of which I think were certainly warranted and deserved on my end), and I hope to keep it that way.  :angel:   Of course, adjusting from the more polemical style of posting allowed here at OC.net, to a more eirenic style can be hard, and may prove to be my downfall at CAF, if I am not careful.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 30, 2012, 02:26:44 AM
You have it backwards.
The Church converted the pagans, then communed them.

The difference today of course is that the Romans aren't pagans, they are just misguided.  The Church is there, it just needs fixing.  And you fix it from the inside.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 30, 2012, 02:27:39 AM
I honestly can't complain about Catherine Grant, as she has always been lenient with me, even when I let myself get dragged into heated exchanges (and she also writes with a rather cordial tone in her PMs). I have never received more than two warnings from her (both of which I think were certainly warranted), and I hope to keep it that way.  :angel:

Catherine is certainly great.  Other mods are ban happy.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on September 30, 2012, 02:29:52 AM
I agree about the moderation of the Eastern Catholic area, but there has been a palpable change in other sub-forums since I joined several years ago. I don't want to drag anyone's name through the mud, but let's just say if I do go back there after my suspension ends (not sure if I want to or not), I will probably stay out of any non-Eastern parts of CAF. The standards of moderation seem to vary quite a lot across the various sub-forums.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 30, 2012, 02:32:01 AM
This isn't a matter of past or future. It is in the nature of your communion. You are in communion with people who openly embrace heterodox beliefs, and they dictate to you what you can and cannot teach. If you're fine with that, good for you, but I find it hard to believe that you really don't understand why it can't be that Rome is more Orthodox or becoming more Orthodox due to the presence of the ECCs, when the ECCs are not Orthodox because of the nature of the Roman communion does not allow them to be. And without the Roman communion, you don't exist...

Well, you wake up one day and you find your own Church to be heterodox.  What do you do?  Jump ship and go to the orthodox one?  Or do you try to fix the Church where you are in?  Whatever circumstances led to where we are today, for us ECs we are where we are right now.  It is good that we recognize the need to rediscover our Orthodox roots and identity.  We need to start doing that and hopefully one day Orthodoxy will gain a strong foothold in the Catholic Church.  Obviously the method of trying to convince the CC from the outside to change hasn't worked for about a millennium already.  We ECs are already in the position where we are, so we need to make a change.  Splitting with the RC wouldn't change anything as the last 1000 years have shown.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on September 30, 2012, 02:48:11 AM
Well, you wake up one day and you find your own Church to be heterodox.  What do you do?  Jump ship and go to the orthodox one?  Or do you try to fix the Church where you are in?

I don't know, and that doesn't apply to the EC situation. Unless you are over a millennium old, the Roman Catholic Church was heterodox when you joined it. You didn't just wake up one day and find it had changed without you. Granted, we are all born into a world of schism, so there is some sense in which people who are born RC or EC aren't any more culpable for the schism than anyone else, but most other churches don't have this idea of entertaining parallel and sometimes contradicting theologies and eccelesiologies in one communion. So again, the problem is with the nature of the communion itself, not with the individual (though you as the individual have a responsibility to actually BE Orthodox if you are going to go around saying you're "Orthodox" of any kind, as I know some ECs, not necessarily you, say).

Quote
Whatever circumstances led to where we are today, for us ECs we are where we are right now.  It is good that we recognize the need to rediscover our Orthodox roots and identity.  We need to start doing that and hopefully one day Orthodoxy will gain a strong foothold in the Catholic Church.


I guess I just don't understand this thinking. Your orthodoxy cannot stand in for the heterodoxy of another, particularly when that other is much bigger and more powerful than you, and actually has the power to dictate to you what is orthodox and what is not, according to the ecclesiology of your communion.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 30, 2012, 02:58:00 AM
Well, you wake up one day and you find your own Church to be heterodox.  What do you do?  Jump ship and go to the orthodox one?  Or do you try to fix the Church where you are in?

I don't know, and that doesn't apply to the EC situation. Unless you are over a millennium old, the Roman Catholic Church was heterodox when you joined it. You didn't just wake up one day and find it had changed without you. Granted, we are all born into a world of schism, so there is some sense in which people who are born RC or EC aren't any more culpable for the schism than anyone else, but most other churches don't have this idea of entertaining parallel and sometimes contradicting theologies and eccelesiologies in one communion. So again, the problem is with the nature of the communion itself, not with the individual (though you as the individual have a responsibility to actually BE Orthodox if you are going to go around saying you're "Orthodox" of any kind, as I know some ECs, not necessarily you, say).

Quote
Whatever circumstances led to where we are today, for us ECs we are where we are right now.  It is good that we recognize the need to rediscover our Orthodox roots and identity.  We need to start doing that and hopefully one day Orthodoxy will gain a strong foothold in the Catholic Church.


I guess I just don't understand this thinking. Your orthodoxy cannot stand in for the heterodoxy of another, particularly when that other is much bigger and more powerful than you, and actually has the power to dictate to you what is orthodox and what is not, according to the ecclesiology of your communion.

Sorry, that is what I meant.  You wake up and you REALIZED (in honor of someone ;) ) that your Church is heterodox.

I'm not saying our Orthodoxy will make the heterodoxy of others be alright.  But look at it this way, who will convince RCs to be more Orthodox?  People who they see they are in schism with?  Or people they are in communion with?  If Jesus wasn't a Jew, would the Israelites listen to him?  Why did Jesus choose as his Apostle among the Gentiles a Jewish man who as born in the diaspora?  And why was he Jewish to begin with?  Why didn't he just convert a Gentile?  As in our situation, St. Paul was sort of "Best of Both Worlds".  He is Jewish, but he grew in pagan lands, and he is a citizen of Rome.  He was the perfect transition of being a Jew to being a complete Gentile, while not being completely Gentile which means he would have been accepted by the Jewish Christians before they would have ever thought of accepting Gentiles.  ECs are like that.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on September 30, 2012, 03:17:19 AM
Wow...that's really...well, I don't agree with that. But best of luck in ministering to the Latins.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 30, 2012, 03:25:51 AM
Wow...that's really...well, I don't agree with that. But best of luck in ministering to the Latins.

I know, it is ambitious.  Someone has to at least try.  Who knows, maybe next year I'm in the OCA.  Or maybe 500 years from now something we started today made a difference.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on September 30, 2012, 05:34:30 AM
Receiting the Creed in it's original form on Sundays and knowing only a short way away it is being receited with the Filioque can be haunting.

Indeed, very haunting. I try to be as far away from protestant and Roman churches on sundays or I might catch Filioquitis.

Like Cronos it devours its own. Marybeloved and fames have been banned.  Cyrillic, Green_umbrella, Ignatius_Maron and some other guy were banned too. All in one night!

What did your ban say?

My ban says...

Your account has been locked for the following reason:
circumvention of ban

This change will be lifted: Never


I do not know how this could be because I have never been a member so obviously never banned before. I had no ban to circumvent. The only thing I can think is talking about my ban on that forum on this forum? I suppose. You could have at least offered to sell me an Indulgence on the way out but that is fine CAF. And I have no doubt you will read this.

Perhaps they thought you were me as well.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on September 30, 2012, 07:22:09 AM
Well, you wake up one day and you find your own Church to be heterodox.  What do you do?  Jump ship and go to the orthodox one?  Or do you try to fix the Church where you are in?

Although it isn't the primary point of discussion, I'd like to comment on converting-vs-not-converting. I can tell you that I made up my mind some years ago that if it turns out (somehow?) that I'm really Orthodox instead of Catholic, then I wouldn't leave Orthodoxy for Catholicism. But does that mean that, if I really am Catholic (which I'm almost completely sure that I am), I'm going to leave Catholicism for Orthodoxy? No, not necessarily.

On the other hand I have noticed, repeatedly in my years on this forum, Orthodox posters speaking as though my not-converting-to-Orthodoxy is just as bad as if I had started out Orthodox and then left it for Catholicism. Frankly, that doesn't make sense to me.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on September 30, 2012, 07:58:29 AM
Catherine is certainly great.  Other mods are ban happy.

I always heard lots of positive comments about Tom Monahan of the old Eastern Christianity section. (Years later I found out that Tom Monahan was actually the same person as Irish Melkite.)


Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on September 30, 2012, 08:24:58 AM
Of course, adjusting from the more polemical style of posting allowed here at OC.net, to a more eirenic style can be hard, and may prove to be my downfall at CAF, if I am not careful.

You should try addressing everyone as "Brother" (or "Sister").
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on September 30, 2012, 10:58:00 AM
Well, you wake up one day and you find your own Church to be heterodox.  What do you do?  Jump ship and go to the orthodox one?  Or do you try to fix the Church where you are in?

Although it isn't the primary point of discussion, I'd like to comment on converting-vs-not-converting. I can tell you that I made up my mind some years ago that if it turns out (somehow?) that I'm really Orthodox instead of Catholic, then I wouldn't leave Orthodoxy for Catholicism. But does that mean that, if I really am Catholic (which I'm almost completely sure that I am), I'm going to leave Catholicism for Orthodoxy? No, not necessarily.

This does not make sense. There is no opposition between Catholicity and Orthodox that would necessitate such a decision of one to the exclusion of the other. To be Orthodox is to be truly Catholic, in the original sense of being whole and complete. To put it another way, when I entered Orthodoxy I gave up many parts of my Roman Catholic life, but none of what is Catholic; only extraneous things that are of Rome but not of the Catholic (whole) Church. Perhaps you being a Melkite can understand the difference, in that there are those things unique to Rome that are (at least hypothetically, what with the call being made that you somehow return to your Orthodox roots) not shared by the Church as a whole.

Quote
On the other hand I have noticed, repeatedly in my years on this forum, Orthodox posters speaking as though my not-converting-to-Orthodoxy is just as bad as if I had started out Orthodox and then left it for Catholicism. Frankly, that doesn't make sense to me.


While I don't know on what basis you would have picked up this idea from people here, on a practical level, if the result is the same (i.e., you are outside of the Orthodox Church, which is the only Church), then I could see how they might think that. I would think that your not-converting-to-Orthodoxy might be looked at as bad because the alternative you are living in strives to be Orthodox without actually being Orthodox, which is self-evidently not ideal because it is quite impossible. After all, many outside of the Church (whether Roman Catholic or Eastern Catholic, or completely non-Christian for that matter) will profess a great deal of love and respect for it, and that's good...well, it is better than hate and disrespect...but love and respect is not union with the Church. Only baptism into the life of Christ through reception into His Church (the Orthodox Church) and reception of her sacraments is union with the Church. So in that way, again, yes, anything that is not conversion to Orthodoxy can be seen as equally bad on some level, because you cannot be 'half way in' by virtue of being "Eastern" (whatever that means), or having lots and lots of respect for Orthodoxy, or whatever else. You're in when/if you actually literally convert and join, and out when/if you don't.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on September 30, 2012, 12:11:20 PM
Well, you wake up one day and you find your own Church to be heterodox.  What do you do?  Jump ship and go to the orthodox one?  Or do you try to fix the Church where you are in?

Although it isn't the primary point of discussion, I'd like to comment on converting-vs-not-converting. I can tell you that I made up my mind some years ago that if it turns out (somehow?) that I'm really Orthodox instead of Catholic, then I wouldn't leave Orthodoxy for Catholicism. But does that mean that, if I really am Catholic (which I'm almost completely sure that I am), I'm going to leave Catholicism for Orthodoxy? No, not necessarily.

This does not make sense. There is no opposition between Catholicity and Orthodox that would necessitate such a decision of one to the exclusion of the other. To be Orthodox is to be truly Catholic, in the original sense of being whole and complete. To put it another way, when I entered Orthodoxy I gave up many parts of my Roman Catholic life, but none of what is Catholic; only extraneous things that are of Rome but not of the Catholic (whole) Church. Perhaps you being a Melkite can understand the difference, in that there are those things unique to Rome that are (at least hypothetically, what with the call being made that you somehow return to your Orthodox roots) not shared by the Church as a whole.

Quote
On the other hand I have noticed, repeatedly in my years on this forum, Orthodox posters speaking as though my not-converting-to-Orthodoxy is just as bad as if I had started out Orthodox and then left it for Catholicism. Frankly, that doesn't make sense to me.


While I don't know on what basis you would have picked up this idea from people here, on a practical level, if the result is the same (i.e., you are outside of the Orthodox Church, which is the only Church), then I could see how they might think that. I would think that your not-converting-to-Orthodoxy might be looked at as bad because the alternative you are living in strives to be Orthodox without actually being Orthodox, which is self-evidently not ideal because it is quite impossible. After all, many outside of the Church (whether Roman Catholic or Eastern Catholic, or completely non-Christian for that matter) will profess a great deal of love and respect for it, and that's good...well, it is better than hate and disrespect...but love and respect is not union with the Church. Only baptism into the life of Christ through reception into His Church (the Orthodox Church) and reception of her sacraments is union with the Church. So in that way, again, yes, anything that is not conversion to Orthodoxy can be seen as equally bad on some level, because you cannot be 'half way in' by virtue of being "Eastern" (whatever that means), or having lots and lots of respect for Orthodoxy, or whatever else. You're in when/if you actually literally convert and join, and out when/if you don't.

Curious about your comment tough, but the Orthodox Church that Peter J and I are considering are not even in communion with your Orthodox Church.  So how does your comment even apply to us?  Or to yourself for that matter?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on September 30, 2012, 12:16:14 PM
How would it not apply? The OO and EO believe the same things about the Orthodox Church (so far as I can tell, anyway), they just believe that their particular communion is the Church, and not the other communion (but even then, there are many on both sides who believe that the EO and OO are both Orthodox).
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cavaradossi on September 30, 2012, 12:23:48 PM
Of course, adjusting from the more polemical style of posting allowed here at OC.net, to a more eirenic style can be hard, and may prove to be my downfall at CAF, if I am not careful.

You should try addressing everyone as "Brother" (or "Sister").

Brother or sister (but I suspect brother) Peter, what a great suggestion. I shall awkwardly implement it when I post at CAF (ok, probably not). :laugh:
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on September 30, 2012, 01:32:20 PM
Well, you wake up one day and you find your own Church to be heterodox.  What do you do?  Jump ship and go to the orthodox one?  Or do you try to fix the Church where you are in?

Although it isn't the primary point of discussion, I'd like to comment on converting-vs-not-converting. I can tell you that I made up my mind some years ago that if it turns out (somehow?) that I'm really Orthodox instead of Catholic, then I wouldn't leave Orthodoxy for Catholicism. But does that mean that, if I really am Catholic (which I'm almost completely sure that I am), I'm going to leave Catholicism for Orthodoxy? No, not necessarily.

This does not make sense. There is no opposition between Catholicity and Orthodox that would necessitate such a decision of one to the exclusion of the other. To be Orthodox is to be truly Catholic, in the original sense of being whole and complete. To put it another way, when I entered Orthodoxy I gave up many parts of my Roman Catholic life, but none of what is Catholic; only extraneous things that are of Rome but not of the Catholic (whole) Church. Perhaps you being a Melkite can understand the difference, in that there are those things unique to Rome that are (at least hypothetically, what with the call being made that you somehow return to your Orthodox roots) not shared by the Church as a whole.

Alright, that's fair enough I suppose. Instead of "leave Catholicism" I could say "leave that body which consists of all Christians who are in full communion with Pope Benedict XVI".

[Short reply b/c I'm going back out again, but will hopefully have time to say more this evening.]
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on October 01, 2012, 02:43:53 AM
How would it not apply? The OO and EO believe the same things about the Orthodox Church (so far as I can tell, anyway), they just believe that their particular communion is the Church, and not the other communion (but even then, there are many on both sides who believe that the EO and OO are both Orthodox).

Because it doesn't.  If you are not in communion, they you are not Orthodox the way they are Orthodox.  And I do not agree that the OO and EO believe in the same thing.  If they did, they would be in communion.  The fact that they are not, well, you know smarter theologians have thought about this more than I do and understand this more than I do.  If there is really no difference, why is there no communion?  It's not like both sides aren't trying.

And everything you say can be applied to the ECs as well.  Many ECs believe that they are Orthodox, some Orthodox do not see much difference between EOs and ECs.  At this point, the OOs are as much Orthodox as the ECs are, by my estimation.  Fact is, until either of us are in communion with them, we're not as Orthodox as they are.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on October 01, 2012, 03:42:46 AM
Because it doesn't.  If you are not in communion, they you are not Orthodox the way they are Orthodox.  And I do not agree that the OO and EO believe in the same thing.  If they did, they would be in communion.

No, no, no. Please read again. I wrote that they believe the same things about the Orthodox Church.  Not that they believe that they are both the Orthodox Church (though some individual laypersons or others do).

Quote
The fact that they are not, well, you know smarter theologians have thought about this more than I do and understand this more than I do.  If there is really no difference, why is there no communion?  It's not like both sides aren't trying.

Again, re-read what I wrote. I did not write that there is no difference between them.

Quote
And everything you say can be applied to the ECs as well.
 

As you'd like to, but obviously I'd disagree with that. But go on, if you wish. Hopefully one of those Orthodox who you'll have to listen to (the EO) will either validate or correct you. I strongly suspect the latter.

Quote
Many ECs believe that they are Orthodox, some Orthodox do not see much difference between EOs and ECs.  At this point, the OOs are as much Orthodox as the ECs are, by my estimation.
 

Wow. This says a lot about your estimation skills. That's all I'll say.

Quote
Fact is, until either of us are in communion with them, we're not as Orthodox as they are.

You must think I was born yesterday to write as you do, thinking that you'll get me to go along with this. And for what? To validate your silly ideas of Orthodoxy while you waffle on whether or not to "'dox", as you put it, because you are so enamored of your particular UGCC bishop? Good for you and him. Those of us who have made decisions don't put much stock anyway in the opinions of those who don't, can't, or won't. It's kind of like taking weight loss advice from someone who is fatter than you. And you will never find me groveling for the approval of anyone, be he from Rome or Constantinople. That is not how we do things. Who are the Byzantines to me? Nice folk, and very close to us on many substantial issues, but that's it, barring some massively huge development in the OO-EO dialogue that I am unaware of. So when you say "until either of us are in communion with them, we're not as Orthodox as they are", who are you trying to convince -- me or yourself? Because I've already joined the Orthodox Church, even if Patriarch Bartholomew himself were to come and tell me otherwise. I would, by virtue of my baptism, be obliged to say most sincerely: Thank you for stopping by, Your Holiness, it has been an honor to receive you, but I think there's a guy on the internet calling himself "Choy" who desires your blessings even more than I.

And the door would be shut and I would return to the Tasbeha... ;)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on October 01, 2012, 01:17:35 PM
dzheremi, I'm not here to start an argument with you.  I'm just saying that you are disqualifying us from being Orthodox when you yourself belong to a Church not in communion with the Chalcedonian Orthodox.  Sure, you believe your Church is Orthodox, fair enough.  We believe our Church is Orthodox too, even the RCs think they are orthodox.  So we all believe we are orthodox, aren't we all?  I'm pretty sure the Anglicans and Lutherans think they are orthodox too, otherwise they wouldn't stay where they are, right?  So what is the qualifer really?  Everyone thinks that what they believe in is the right faith.  So what is the unbiased qualifer for one to be truly Orthodox?  Because anyone can say, "yeah we believe in the same thing."  There will always be an expert somewhere saying the same thing.  So to me all these, "we are Orthodox and you are not" is just polemics, unless you have some quantifiable way to say that you are, and others are not.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on October 01, 2012, 01:35:59 PM
We believe our Church is Orthodox too, even the RCs think they are orthodox. 

So, you're EO already?  ;)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on October 01, 2012, 01:56:42 PM
I'm just saying that you are disqualifying us from being Orthodox when you yourself belong to a Church not in communion with the Chalcedonian Orthodox.

And again, what does this mean? It means nothing to me, in terms of what it says about the Orthodoxy of our Church. The Chalcedonians are not our masters. They are no standard of Orthodoxy for us, as they apparently are for you. You are attempting to exploit the sad division between the Chalcedonian Orthodox and the non-Chalcedonian Orthodox so as to put your church on equal footing with one of us, because you know that as you currently are you cannot be acceptable to the Chalcedonians whom you apparently see as the paragon of Orthodoxy (and, yes, that apparently does put us in something of the same situation as far as concerns the Chalcedonians, but I submit to you that not all division is of the same magnitude, and there are many threads here on OC.net that will testify to the fact that the majority of the Chalcedonians, at least as far as concerns whatever quality sample that this board can be considered to be, see the OO as closer to them than any of the Romans or their compatriots). But again, since this is not how we operate, you will get no agreement from me that what you have thus far presented means that we are on equal footing with you, or any of the other things you have posted as "fact" or "in your estimation". Your estimations mean nothing, and your facts are not facts at all. Go be with your UGCC bishop. It does not have to concern us. Nobody brought up miaphysitism as a disqualifier of Orthodoxy until you ran out of justifications for your heterodoxy.

Quote
Sure, you believe your Church is Orthodox, fair enough.  We believe our Church is Orthodox too, even the RCs think they are orthodox.  So we all believe we are orthodox, aren't we all?  I'm pretty sure the Anglicans and Lutherans think they are orthodox too, otherwise they wouldn't stay where they are, right?  So what is the qualifer really?  Everyone thinks that what they believe in is the right faith.  So what is the unbiased qualifer for one to be truly Orthodox?  Because anyone can say, "yeah we believe in the same thing."  There will always be an expert somewhere saying the same thing.  So to me all these, "we are Orthodox and you are not" is just polemics, unless you have some quantifiable way to say that you are, and others are not.

Ah, but it is not a matter of personal belief. It is a matter of spirituality, praxis, consistency, historicity, and many other things that cannot be quantified or qualified as indisputable evidence that we are this and you are that. Everyone can claim anything and challenge anything. This does not affect our way of being Christian, any more so than your appeal to the Chalcedonians should fill us with shame and have us begging together with you to be found acceptable to Constantinople or Moscow. Nuts to that. Again, you will never see me grovelling before anyone. Yes, we believe in our faith not any less than anyone else, but we have faith that proceeds  in the unbroken chain from St. Mark to HH Pope Shenouda III of blessed memory, even as the Chalcedonians deposed our sainted Popes and set up their own Chalcedonian hierarchies (and really, I wouldn't expect them to do anything else, as they were of the Byzantine rulers of Egypt and believed as they still believe now that we were wrong in rejecting Chalcedon; in that way, neither of our communions have moved, and sadly the lines have solidified, but for what I assume are necessary reasons), and all manner of evil may have befallen us at later dates. These are all later developments which are historically verifiable (it should be obvious that the "Chalcedonians" and "non-Chalcedonians" as distinct groups did not exist until several centuries after the foundation of the Orthodox Church of Alexandria, and the main division, such that there is one, was then between the Greeks and the native Copts, who then split off on separate roads following Chalcedon). Later still is the establishment of your particular church, which is of absolutely no consequence to the preexisting division between the supporters and the detractors of Chalcedon (as your church did not exist in 451), but that you naturally remained on the Chalcedonian side as this is the position of your Orthodox mother church, and of your new masters at Rome.

So I find your attempt to shoe-horn Chalcedon into this discussion for blatantly self-serving reasons to be quite pathetic, if I may be honest. Chalcedonian or non-Chalcedonian, nobody who calls themselves Orthodox with the weight of history on their side (and let's be clear, this isn't a name that we've adopted in answer to the claims of the Chalcedonians that we are not Orthodox; the name of the Church in Coptic, a language which is a cultural asset of the Church that predates not only Chalcedon but Christianity itself, is "Ti-Ekklesia en-Remnkimi en-Orthodoxos"; I don't think you need to speak Coptic to know what that means) thinks that Rome or anyone in communion with her is Orthodox.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Papist on October 01, 2012, 03:19:43 PM
dzheremi, I'm not here to start an argument with you.  I'm just saying that you are disqualifying us from being Orthodox when you yourself belong to a Church not in communion with the Chalcedonian Orthodox.  Sure, you believe your Church is Orthodox, fair enough.  We believe our Church is Orthodox too, even the RCs think they are orthodox.  So we all believe we are orthodox, aren't we all?  I'm pretty sure the Anglicans and Lutherans think they are orthodox too, otherwise they wouldn't stay where they are, right?  So what is the qualifer really?  Everyone thinks that what they believe in is the right faith.  So what is the unbiased qualifer for one to be truly Orthodox?  Because anyone can say, "yeah we believe in the same thing."  There will always be an expert somewhere saying the same thing.  So to me all these, "we are Orthodox and you are not" is just polemics, unless you have some quantifiable way to say that you are, and others are not.
Choy, can I ask you a question? I am curious as to why you want to convince an OO that you are Orthodox? I, as a Latin Catholic, believe myself to be orthodox in the true sense of the word, and I believe that as a Byzantine Catholic, you are as well. Yet, I don't desire to convince OOs and EOs of that fact. This is not a criticism of you. I am just trying to understand where your argument comes from.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on October 01, 2012, 06:42:54 PM
So, you're EO already?  ;)

Winds change direction rapidly where I am.  I think the reality is sinking in that whatever challenge my Bishop has set for me is a really difficult one.  I can't do everything by myself, and I don't feel anyone is really interested in anything.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on October 01, 2012, 06:46:56 PM
I'm just saying that you are disqualifying us from being Orthodox when you yourself belong to a Church not in communion with the Chalcedonian Orthodox.

And again, what does this mean? It means nothing to me, in terms of what it says about the Orthodoxy of our Church. The Chalcedonians are not our masters. They are no standard of Orthodoxy for us, as they apparently are for you. You are attempting to exploit the sad division between the Chalcedonian Orthodox and the non-Chalcedonian Orthodox so as to put your church on equal footing with one of us, because you know that as you currently are you cannot be acceptable to the Chalcedonians whom you apparently see as the paragon of Orthodoxy (and, yes, that apparently does put us in something of the same situation as far as concerns the Chalcedonians, but I submit to you that not all division is of the same magnitude, and there are many threads here on OC.net that will testify to the fact that the majority of the Chalcedonians, at least as far as concerns whatever quality sample that this board can be considered to be, see the OO as closer to them than any of the Romans or their compatriots). But again, since this is not how we operate, you will get no agreement from me that what you have thus far presented means that we are on equal footing with you, or any of the other things you have posted as "fact" or "in your estimation". Your estimations mean nothing, and your facts are not facts at all. Go be with your UGCC bishop. It does not have to concern us. Nobody brought up miaphysitism as a disqualifier of Orthodoxy until you ran out of justifications for your heterodoxy.

Quote
Sure, you believe your Church is Orthodox, fair enough.  We believe our Church is Orthodox too, even the RCs think they are orthodox.  So we all believe we are orthodox, aren't we all?  I'm pretty sure the Anglicans and Lutherans think they are orthodox too, otherwise they wouldn't stay where they are, right?  So what is the qualifer really?  Everyone thinks that what they believe in is the right faith.  So what is the unbiased qualifer for one to be truly Orthodox?  Because anyone can say, "yeah we believe in the same thing."  There will always be an expert somewhere saying the same thing.  So to me all these, "we are Orthodox and you are not" is just polemics, unless you have some quantifiable way to say that you are, and others are not.

Ah, but it is not a matter of personal belief. It is a matter of spirituality, praxis, consistency, historicity, and many other things that cannot be quantified or qualified as indisputable evidence that we are this and you are that. Everyone can claim anything and challenge anything. This does not affect our way of being Christian, any more so than your appeal to the Chalcedonians should fill us with shame and have us begging together with you to be found acceptable to Constantinople or Moscow. Nuts to that. Again, you will never see me grovelling before anyone. Yes, we believe in our faith not any less than anyone else, but we have faith that proceeds  in the unbroken chain from St. Mark to HH Pope Shenouda III of blessed memory, even as the Chalcedonians deposed our sainted Popes and set up their own Chalcedonian hierarchies (and really, I wouldn't expect them to do anything else, as they were of the Byzantine rulers of Egypt and believed as they still believe now that we were wrong in rejecting Chalcedon; in that way, neither of our communions have moved, and sadly the lines have solidified, but for what I assume are necessary reasons), and all manner of evil may have befallen us at later dates. These are all later developments which are historically verifiable (it should be obvious that the "Chalcedonians" and "non-Chalcedonians" as distinct groups did not exist until several centuries after the foundation of the Orthodox Church of Alexandria, and the main division, such that there is one, was then between the Greeks and the native Copts, who then split off on separate roads following Chalcedon). Later still is the establishment of your particular church, which is of absolutely no consequence to the preexisting division between the supporters and the detractors of Chalcedon (as your church did not exist in 451), but that you naturally remained on the Chalcedonian side as this is the position of your Orthodox mother church, and of your new masters at Rome.

So I find your attempt to shoe-horn Chalcedon into this discussion for blatantly self-serving reasons to be quite pathetic, if I may be honest. Chalcedonian or non-Chalcedonian, nobody who calls themselves Orthodox with the weight of history on their side (and let's be clear, this isn't a name that we've adopted in answer to the claims of the Chalcedonians that we are not Orthodox; the name of the Church in Coptic, a language which is a cultural asset of the Church that predates not only Chalcedon but Christianity itself, is "Ti-Ekklesia en-Remnkimi en-Orthodoxos"; I don't think you need to speak Coptic to know what that means) thinks that Rome or anyone in communion with her is Orthodox.

I'm not exoploiting anything.  I'm just stating the obvious facts here.  You say that me or anyone in my Church has anything to say about the orthodoxy of your Church.  And I completely agree with that.  But why are you telling me that I am not Orthodox?  Who made you the Orthodoxy authority?  Why can't I tell you what is Orthodox or not but you can tell me that I am not Orthodox?

That is all I am saying here.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on October 01, 2012, 06:48:58 PM
dzheremi, I'm not here to start an argument with you.  I'm just saying that you are disqualifying us from being Orthodox when you yourself belong to a Church not in communion with the Chalcedonian Orthodox.  Sure, you believe your Church is Orthodox, fair enough.  We believe our Church is Orthodox too, even the RCs think they are orthodox.  So we all believe we are orthodox, aren't we all?  I'm pretty sure the Anglicans and Lutherans think they are orthodox too, otherwise they wouldn't stay where they are, right?  So what is the qualifer really?  Everyone thinks that what they believe in is the right faith.  So what is the unbiased qualifer for one to be truly Orthodox?  Because anyone can say, "yeah we believe in the same thing."  There will always be an expert somewhere saying the same thing.  So to me all these, "we are Orthodox and you are not" is just polemics, unless you have some quantifiable way to say that you are, and others are not.
Choy, can I ask you a question? I am curious as to why you want to convince an OO that you are Orthodox? I, as a Latin Catholic, believe myself to be orthodox in the true sense of the word, and I believe that as a Byzantine Catholic, you are as well. Yet, I don't desire to convince OOs and EOs of that fact. This is not a criticism of you. I am just trying to understand where your argument comes from.

Why don't you ask dzheremi why does he thinks he can tell us Byzantine Catholics that we are not Orthodox?  Why does he get to criticize us while we cannot give them criticism?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on October 01, 2012, 07:00:58 PM
If you want to take "Byzantine Catholics are not Orthodox" as criticism, that's on you, but to me it is a factual statement in that there is no particular body claiming to be a part of the Orthodox Church in any fashion that you are in communion with (Melkites and their wayback machine, discussed earlier, excepted :P).

But it seems weird to me that people who went out of their way to leave communion with their former Chalcedonian Orthodox churches would then get so bent out of shape when the reality of their ecclesiatical standing is pointed out to them. You're not Orthodox, and again it is because of the nature of your communion, and not anything about you as people or you yourself as an individual. If it bothers you that much, you'd think that this would be the impetus needed to actually join an Orthodox church (y'know, so that I couldn't say that anymore), but wanting to be all things to all people and being angry after you are told it can't work that way is how this has played out instead. Shame.

And nobody here ever said you can't criticize me or OO as a whole or anything like that. All I have said is that your criticism really has no bearing on anything we've talked about, so it seems like you're grasping at straws to me. If the OO were Orthodox also in the eyes of the Chalcedonians (since you have arbitrarily decided to make them masters of the ecclesiastical universe, for some reason), you still wouldn't be, and if the OO aren't Orthodox in the eyes of the Chalcedonians, you still wouldn't be. Your problem is in your submission to Rome that lies at the heart of your communion, and we "heretical" OO have never had that problem. So your criticism, while allowed, is irrelevant.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Papist on October 01, 2012, 07:13:20 PM
dzheremi, I'm not here to start an argument with you.  I'm just saying that you are disqualifying us from being Orthodox when you yourself belong to a Church not in communion with the Chalcedonian Orthodox.  Sure, you believe your Church is Orthodox, fair enough.  We believe our Church is Orthodox too, even the RCs think they are orthodox.  So we all believe we are orthodox, aren't we all?  I'm pretty sure the Anglicans and Lutherans think they are orthodox too, otherwise they wouldn't stay where they are, right?  So what is the qualifer really?  Everyone thinks that what they believe in is the right faith.  So what is the unbiased qualifer for one to be truly Orthodox?  Because anyone can say, "yeah we believe in the same thing."  There will always be an expert somewhere saying the same thing.  So to me all these, "we are Orthodox and you are not" is just polemics, unless you have some quantifiable way to say that you are, and others are not.
Choy, can I ask you a question? I am curious as to why you want to convince an OO that you are Orthodox? I, as a Latin Catholic, believe myself to be orthodox in the true sense of the word, and I believe that as a Byzantine Catholic, you are as well. Yet, I don't desire to convince OOs and EOs of that fact. This is not a criticism of you. I am just trying to understand where your argument comes from.

Why don't you ask dzheremi why does he thinks he can tell us Byzantine Catholics that we are not Orthodox?  Why does he get to criticize us while we cannot give them criticism?
What I don't understand is why you care what he thinks about our communion. I know that EOs and OOs don't think we are Orthodox. That has no affect on my confidence in the Catholic Church, nor does it affect my practice of the faith. I don't need to convince them of our orthodoxy, because I already know that you and I are orthodox in our profession. (NOTE: I'm using little "o" for "orthodox" when describing the Catholic Church).
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Papist on October 01, 2012, 07:15:39 PM
If you want to take "Byzantine Catholics are not Orthodox" as criticism, that's on you, but to me it is a factual statement in that there is no particular body claiming to be a part of the Orthodox Church in any fashion that you are in communion with (Melkites and their wayback machine, discussed earlier, excepted :P).

But it seems weird to me that people who went out of their way to leave communion with their former Chalcedonian Orthodox churches would then get so bent out of shape when the reality of their ecclesiatical standing is pointed out to them. You're not Orthodox, and again it is because of the nature of your communion, and not anything about you as people or you yourself as an individual. If it bothers you that much, you'd think that this would be the impetus needed to actually join an Orthodox church (y'know, so that I couldn't say that anymore), but wanting to be all things to all people and being angry after you are told it can't work that way is how this has played out instead. Shame.

And nobody here ever said you can't criticize me or OO as a whole or anything like that. All I have said is that your criticism really has no bearing on anything we've talked about, so it seems like you're grasping at straws to me. If the OO were Orthodox also in the eyes of the Chalcedonians (since you have arbitrarily decided to make them masters of the ecclesiastical universe, for some reason), you still wouldn't be, and if the OO aren't Orthodox in the eyes of the Chalcedonians, you still wouldn't be. Your problem is in your submission to Rome that lies at the heart of your communion, and we "heretical" OO have never had that problem. So your criticism, while allowed, is irrelevant.
I respect this, not because I believe that Byzantine Catholics are not orthodox in the true sense of the word, but because you are not compromising what you honestly believe.  Just as you don't believe that Catholics are fully orthodox, I don't believe that OOs and EOs are fully orthodox. If we can't be honest like this with each other, then ecumenical conversations will get us nowhere.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on October 01, 2012, 07:28:34 PM
And I respect that in turn, for the very same reason. I see no advantage in blurring the lines between our communions, whether in favor of something I'd like to hear or not. I already know many EO would see us as worse than even those of the Roman communion (or at least that's the impression I get from listening to the recollections of people I've talked to who have been to the monastery of St. Cathrine, which belongs to the Greeks), but I can't let that bother me. They're not claiming anything different than what they have claimed ever since the split following Chalcedon was finalized (sometime after the council itself, as there were attempts at reunion), and of course we also still think they're wrong, so it's not really worth getting riled up about.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on October 01, 2012, 07:34:25 PM
If you want to take "Byzantine Catholics are not Orthodox" as criticism, that's on you, but to me it is a factual statement in that there is no particular body claiming to be a part of the Orthodox Church in any fashion that you are in communion with (Melkites and their wayback machine, discussed earlier, excepted :P).

But it seems weird to me that people who went out of their way to leave communion with their former Chalcedonian Orthodox churches would then get so bent out of shape when the reality of their ecclesiatical standing is pointed out to them. You're not Orthodox, and again it is because of the nature of your communion, and not anything about you as people or you yourself as an individual. If it bothers you that much, you'd think that this would be the impetus needed to actually join an Orthodox church (y'know, so that I couldn't say that anymore), but wanting to be all things to all people and being angry after you are told it can't work that way is how this has played out instead. Shame.

And nobody here ever said you can't criticize me or OO as a whole or anything like that. All I have said is that your criticism really has no bearing on anything we've talked about, so it seems like you're grasping at straws to me. If the OO were Orthodox also in the eyes of the Chalcedonians (since you have arbitrarily decided to make them masters of the ecclesiastical universe, for some reason), you still wouldn't be, and if the OO aren't Orthodox in the eyes of the Chalcedonians, you still wouldn't be. Your problem is in your submission to Rome that lies at the heart of your communion, and we "heretical" OO have never had that problem. So your criticism, while allowed, is irrelevant.

As I told you, I respect you and your opinion.  Just don't get upset when the same criticism is hurled back at you.  ;)

I will admit, we have had our problems.  But we can be pretty "Orthodox" in every sense of the word if we just put an effort into it.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: TristanCross on October 01, 2012, 08:17:24 PM
there's a reason why many people (and this latin rite Catholic) rarely, if ever, post over there anymore.
Some of us are banned for life.

I was banned because there was a large thread bashing David Letterman after it was revealed that he was having sex with multiple women. All I said was that we shouldn't bash him (literally said it like that). Next thing I knew they perma-banned me. I forgot that Catholicism is rooted in judging others...
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on October 01, 2012, 08:22:00 PM
So, you're EO already?  ;)

Winds change direction rapidly where I am.  I think the reality is sinking in that whatever challenge my Bishop has set for me is a really difficult one.  I can't do everything by myself, and I don't feel anyone is really interested in anything.

Interesting. I'm curious what you mean by challenge ... is this basically a "Here's where we are, but there's where we should be. So how can we get there?" kind of thing?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on October 01, 2012, 11:50:23 PM
Interesting. I'm curious what you mean by challenge ... is this basically a "Here's where we are, but there's where we should be. So how can we get there?" kind of thing?

Sort of.  But I can't do it alone.  I've cast my nets and no one is biting.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on October 03, 2012, 02:31:42 AM
So if you sign your every post "Blessings," it seems you can mock the other person without getting any type of suspension.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: JR on October 03, 2012, 05:50:55 AM
So if you sign your every post "Blessings," it seems you can mock the other person without getting any type of suspension.

This really works?

I got banned a long time ago, Think I will have to open a new account just to see if this works  ;)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Tommelomsky on October 03, 2012, 07:51:00 AM
Using blessings to mock somebody is just an insult. And not very respectful to the Lord either.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: JoeS2 on October 03, 2012, 10:30:09 AM
Using blessings to mock somebody is just an insult. And not very respectful to the Lord either.

Anytime I saw the ending "blessings" I thought of it only as a "too-da-loo", or "ta ta".
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Papist on October 03, 2012, 10:36:25 AM
Another way to avoid getting banned is to put lots of smilely faced-emoticons in your posts.  :D
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on October 03, 2012, 11:03:10 AM
So if you sign your every post "Blessings," it seems you can mock the other person without getting any type of suspension.

This really works?

I got banned a long time ago, Think I will have to open a new account just to see if this works  ;)

Seems to be working for somebody  ;D
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Marc1152 on October 03, 2012, 02:15:51 PM
So if you sign your every post "Blessings," it seems you can mock the other person without getting any type of suspension.

This really works?

I got banned a long time ago, Think I will have to open a new account just to see if this works  ;)

Seems to be working for somebody  ;D

They will have your computer's IP address listed as banned, not just your name. You should use a different computer in a different location. Computers in the same home will often have IP addresses only a diget off from one anodther and will also trigger their alarm bell. Use a work computer if you can.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Marc1152 on October 03, 2012, 02:24:36 PM
I just went there and read through some posts. You can do that without signing up. Of course you cant reply to anything.. Meh... Nothing impressive going on there. That's a big enough dose for me for another year or so.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on October 03, 2012, 02:25:13 PM
So if you sign your every post "Blessings," it seems you can mock the other person without getting any type of suspension.

This really works?

I got banned a long time ago, Think I will have to open a new account just to see if this works  ;)

Seems to be working for somebody  ;D

They will have your computer's IP address listed as banned, not just your name. You should use a different computer in a different location. Computers in the same home will often have IP addresses only a diget off from one anodther and will also trigger their alarm bell. Use a work computer if you can.

No, you'll just have to clear cookies and you can register again.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Iconodule on October 03, 2012, 02:42:55 PM
So if you sign your every post "Blessings," it seems you can mock the other person without getting any type of suspension.

Heh, sounds like the old Mennonite "We'll pray for you."
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on October 03, 2012, 02:44:10 PM
Yeah, the quality of conversations have dropped significantly.  Notable Eastern Catholic and Orthodox posters either left or have since been banned.  Not really a great place to learn stuff anymore, but if you are there for entertainment it still has some value :P
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on October 08, 2012, 03:41:22 PM
I wonder ... do you suppose a "The Old OCnet Crowd Will Love This!" conversation is going on somewhere else in the world/internet?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Αριστοκλής on October 08, 2012, 04:16:13 PM
I wonder ... do you suppose a "The Old OCnet Crowd Will Love This!" conversation is going on somewhere else in the world/internet?

I doubt it. We don't do general purges here - no Inquisition.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Papist on October 08, 2012, 04:29:50 PM
I wonder ... do you suppose a "The Old OCnet Crowd Will Love This!" conversation is going on somewhere else in the world/internet?
I doubt it. There is quite a bit more room here for freedom of speach. We have very gracious hosts.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Theophilos78 on October 08, 2012, 05:30:48 PM
Soon I am going to celebrate the 4th anniversary of getting myself banned from that forum.  ;D
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: FormerReformer on October 08, 2012, 06:52:26 PM
I wonder ... do you suppose a "The Old OCnet Crowd Will Love This!" conversation is going on somewhere else in the world/internet?

Actually, there is- right here in this very forum. Nobody knows about it, it's a super-secret ultra-private subforum, but it's where Fr Anastasios and everyone else that has been around since 2002-2004 meets together to laugh at us "newbies". All those posters whose old conversations you've seen but don't post here anymore are actually all over there.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on October 25, 2012, 01:28:31 PM
It seems someone's main existence in CAF is to always oppose me.  Maybe I should start loving the Pope so this guy would turn and become anti-papist :p

Sorry, just ranting.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Asteriktos on October 25, 2012, 01:55:47 PM
I wonder ... do you suppose a "The Old OCnet Crowd Will Love This!" conversation is going on somewhere else in the world/internet?

Actually, there is- right here in this very forum. Nobody knows about it, it's a super-secret ultra-private subforum, but it's where Fr Anastasios and everyone else that has been around since 2002-2004 meets together to laugh at us "newbies". All those posters whose old conversations you've seen but don't post here anymore are actually all over there.


This poster has been marked for deletion for knowing too much. Move along people, nothing to see here.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: biro on October 25, 2012, 08:05:01 PM
It seems someone's main existence in CAF is to always oppose me.  Maybe I should start loving the Pope so this guy would turn and become anti-papist :p

Sorry, just ranting.

You know, you don't have to post there.

Do they hold a gun to your head or something?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on October 25, 2012, 08:24:50 PM
You know, you don't have to post there.

Do they hold a gun to your head or something?

LOL, I know.  But I find it entertaining.  Also perhaps its just force of habit.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on October 27, 2012, 11:02:36 AM
I'd like to pose a question to all of you who are not on CAF these days: Would you return if they once again had an Eastern Christianity Forum (assuming that they unbanned those of you who have been banned)?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Marc1152 on October 27, 2012, 11:16:23 AM
I'd like to pose a question to all of you who are not on CAF these days: Would you return if they once again had an Eastern Christianity Forum (assuming that they unbanned those of you who have been banned)?

As a great General once said:  "Nuts"

Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on October 27, 2012, 11:20:38 AM
I'd like to pose a question to all of you who are not on CAF these days: Would you return if they once again had an Eastern Christianity Forum (assuming that they unbanned those of you who have been banned)?

It would depend on the quality of the posters. Cavaradossi is great but there is no Roman knowledgable enough to oppose him.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cavaradossi on October 27, 2012, 03:51:18 PM
I'd like to pose a question to all of you who are not on CAF these days: Would you return if they once again had an Eastern Christianity Forum (assuming that they unbanned those of you who have been banned)?

It would depend on the quality of the posters. Cavaradossi is great but there is no Roman knowledgable enough to oppose him.

You are inflating my ego. :laugh:

There are certainly other posters there who are greater than I (like Apotheoun), I just happen to be more outspoken.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on October 27, 2012, 04:03:30 PM
Yeah...Apotheoun, Cavaradossi, Nine_Two...there are good quality posters there, but they are outnumbered by others who want to assert Roman prerogatives over even Eastern Catholics' own devotions, as we see again most recently in arguments about how ECCs shouldn't celebrate post-schism Eastern saints, which is just silly.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Papist on October 27, 2012, 04:53:30 PM
Yeah...Apotheounth, Cavaradossi, Nine_Two...there are good quality posters there, but they are outnumbered by others who want to assert Roman prerogatives over even Eastern Catholics' own devotions, as we see again most recently in arguments about how ECCs shouldn't celebrate post-schism Eastern saints, which is just silly.
The actiontions of these Latins doesn't necessarily come from a bad place. They are zealous to defend the Church from modern ideas of relative truth, branch theory, etc. I know, becaue I used to be one of those Latins who refused to venerate post-schism EO saints.
That being said, once they can be made to understand that it is God who makes saints, and not the Church, then there is hope that they will change their understanding of veneration of holy priests, monks, nuns, etc. outside the visible bounds of the Catholic Church. This does not compromise truth. It merely recognizes that we cannot limit God.
These Latins also need to understand that if the Church recognizes these saints, we must as well.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on October 27, 2012, 04:59:01 PM
I still think it's weird for RC's to venerate saints like St. Mark of Ephesus.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Papist on October 27, 2012, 05:07:22 PM
I still think it's weird for RC's to venerate saints like St. Mark of Ephesus.
Haha. Agreed. There might be problem with certain EO saints. I don't think that St. Mark of Ephesus is venerated by neither the Latin, nor the Byzantine Churches.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on October 27, 2012, 05:16:51 PM
Yeah...Apotheoun, Cavaradossi, Nine_Two...there are good quality posters there, but they are outnumbered by others who want to assert Roman prerogatives over even Eastern Catholics' own devotions, as we see again most recently in arguments about how ECCs shouldn't celebrate post-schism Eastern saints, which is just silly.

I'm actually a trifle surprised to hear you say that.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on October 27, 2012, 05:35:24 PM
Think about it, Peter J: If the Melkites, for instance, came into union with Rome in the 17th century, isn't it a bigger disruption to their traditional spirituality (which Rome has called them, and the other Eastern Catholic Churches, to come back to) to tell them to stop venerating saints from their Orthodox past, in order that they should be "more Catholic" or what have you? A similar example could be made of, say, St. Isaac of Nineveh who is venerated in both the EO and OO (and as far as I know, also in the Catholic communion), despite not being a member of either. To put it another way, a person's Orthodoxy does not change based on who venerates him. If the Melkites want to venerate post-schism saints from their pre-Catholic days, why not? I would much rather have Coptic Catholics looking to the likes of St. Severus (if that happens; I don't know, I just mean it as an example) than Thomas Aquinas or Therese of Lisieux or someone else who really has no basis being in their tradition but is suddenly held up as an example for them purely because it's somehow 'wrong' to venerate their own saints. If it wouldn't have been wrong before the 18th century when they came into union with Rome, why is it suddenly wrong now? Unless, of course, you want to say it's Rome's prerogative to deform their traditional spirituality (which I think would be most honest, but also not anything an ECC would be likely to say/admit/believe), at which point you'd have to wonder what it means to be an Eastern Catholic at all. Either Rome is really serious about this "return to your traditions" thing or she isn't.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on October 27, 2012, 06:47:35 PM
Alright, I guess the question is: Does it cut both ways? Specifically, we know that you regard it as silly for Catholics to say that other Catholics shouldn't celebrate post-schism Orthodox saints ... but do you also think it's silly for Orthodox to say that other Orthodox shouldn't celebrate post-schism Catholic saints? (I would be surprised if you said Yes to that, but based on your last post I'm guessing you won't.)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on October 27, 2012, 08:04:48 PM
The difference, Peter J, is that since the Eastern Catholic Churches did not exist until several centuries after the Great Schism, it is not alien to their (Orthodox, or at least Orthodox-rooted) tradition to venerate post-schism saints that were already commemorated prior to their union with Rome. There is no such similar circumstance regarding Roman Catholic saints vis-a-vis the Orthodox Church.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on October 28, 2012, 09:16:11 PM
The difference, Peter J, is that since the Eastern Catholic Churches did not exist until several centuries after the Great Schism, it is not alien to their (Orthodox, or at least Orthodox-rooted) tradition to venerate post-schism saints that were already commemorated prior to their union with Rome. There is no such similar circumstance regarding Roman Catholic saints vis-a-vis the Orthodox Church.

I guess we are, to some extent, on the same page. I do think that uniatism had a certain "bait and switch" element to it. (That might sound a bit cliche. If so I'm sorry, but I can't think of a better way of putting it, at least not at the moment.) Kinda lacking the old you'll-have-to-change-which-saints-you-venerate-once-you're-Catholic speech.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on October 30, 2012, 05:42:25 PM
Did my last post result in thread-closure? I honestly didn't see that coming.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on October 30, 2012, 05:57:38 PM
No, it didn't. The thread is still open...  ???
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on October 30, 2012, 07:14:23 PM
I was a little vague there. By "my last post" I meant this (http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=9955006&postcount=130). (I would quote it but ... well, you know.)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: ialmisry on October 30, 2012, 07:20:10 PM
Alright, I guess the question is: Does it cut both ways? Specifically, we know that you regard it as silly for Catholics to say that other Catholics shouldn't celebrate post-schism Orthodox saints ... but do you also think it's silly for Orthodox to say that other Orthodox shouldn't celebrate post-schism Catholic saints? (I would be surprised if you said Yes to that, but based on your last post I'm guessing you won't.)
submitting to the Vatican requires so much revisionism, what is a little more?  Conforming to Orthodoxy requires a great deal and strict standards.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on October 30, 2012, 08:01:42 PM
I was a little vague there. By "my last post" I meant this (http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=9955006&postcount=130). (I would quote it but ... well, you know.)

No, it wasn't your post.  Did you get a warning?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on October 30, 2012, 08:36:02 PM
submitting to the Vatican requires so much revisionism, what is a little more? 

(pats ialmisry on the back) Now that's the spirit!
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on October 30, 2012, 08:36:52 PM
I was a little vague there. By "my last post" I meant this (http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=9955006&postcount=130). (I would quote it but ... well, you know.)

No, it wasn't your post.  Did you get a warning?

No, but I'm still surprised the thread is closed.

Oh well.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on October 31, 2012, 05:38:19 AM
That thread is indeed amusing.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on October 31, 2012, 01:18:46 PM
I was a little vague there. By "my last post" I meant this (http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=9955006&postcount=130). (I would quote it but ... well, you know.)

No, it wasn't your post.  Did you get a warning?

No, but I'm still surprised the thread is closed.

Oh well.

I reported the thread.  I was told in the past not to repond to ad hominems and just report it.  I was already more than halfway with my response when I remembered this and cooler heads prevailed.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on November 01, 2012, 04:46:52 PM
That was surprising
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on November 01, 2012, 05:13:01 PM
PeterJ got suspended? What for?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on November 01, 2012, 06:17:12 PM
I just got suspended too
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: ialmisry on November 01, 2012, 06:20:39 PM
I just got suspended too
It's not that hard. Soon they will be up there with the Fish Eaters.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Joseph Hazen on November 01, 2012, 06:31:01 PM
I just got suspended too

Pretty sure they're looking for a reason to ban you, Choy.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on November 01, 2012, 06:40:07 PM
I guessing, though I could be wrong, that none of those suspensions are very hefty. Just a few days.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on November 01, 2012, 08:02:43 PM
Last time it was for 24 hours for me.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on November 01, 2012, 09:02:44 PM
Wow. Only 24 hours? I got suspended for a month for "uncharitable" posts about Islam. Hmmm...
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on November 01, 2012, 09:58:31 PM
I think it was 24 hours.  I can't remember exactly.  I don't know how long the current one will go.  Does it tell you anywhere?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on November 01, 2012, 10:03:10 PM
You should receive a PM that states that you've been suspended. Or at least I did. And then when I tried to log in, it said "Your account is suspended. Duration: One month." Maybe they've changed the regulations on how suspensions work recently, though, as I have been told by others that the way I was suspended wasn't in line with CAF's stated procedure (as there was no warning or anything).
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: biro on November 01, 2012, 10:05:24 PM
They banned me once, without ever telling me why at all. No messages, nothing. Later, I went back under a different name. They didn't catch it because by then, I also had a different computer and e-mail.

Do I win something?  :laugh:
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on November 02, 2012, 04:51:39 PM
yup, it was just 24 hours
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cavaradossi on November 02, 2012, 05:44:07 PM
yup, it was just 24 hours

Is the current one just 24 hours too?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on November 02, 2012, 05:51:45 PM
yup, it was just 24 hours

Is the current one just 24 hours too?

Yes

Different mods give different lengths of suspension.  I think I was suspended for a week by the Liturgy and Sacraments mod.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on November 02, 2012, 08:19:14 PM
I just got suspended too
It's not that hard. Soon they will be up there with the Fish Eaters.

Fish Eaters kind of depresses me. When I'm there, I feel like we're on the verge of a good (or great) conversation, yet I just know the opportunity will be ruined somehow.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on November 03, 2012, 08:46:27 AM
I'd like to pose a question to all of you who are not on CAF these days: Would you return if they once again had an Eastern Christianity Forum (assuming that they unbanned those of you who have been banned)?

As a great General once said:  "Nuts"

You mean "Vous n'étes que des vieilles noix".
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on November 06, 2012, 02:09:13 PM
Incidentally, I'm technically back on CAF as of last night / this morning; but I don't exactly have something on the tip of my tongue that I've just been waiting to say (I haven't read much of anything there in the last few days).
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Papist on November 06, 2012, 02:13:59 PM
I just got suspended too
It's not that hard. Soon they will be up there with the Fish Eaters.

Fish Eaters kind of depresses me. When I'm there, I feel like we're on the verge of a good (or great) conversation, yet I just know the opportunity will be ruined somehow.
I find the general atmosphere to be just a bit strange. I can understand the attachment of the posters to traditon. I too wish that we could eliminate modernism in the Church. It's also understandable why the posters want to remain Catholic. That is the faith they know. But in the case of many FE posters, their position is inconsistent. If theses people really believe that the Catholic Church has defected, then it seems that one can no longer believe that the Catholic Church is the Church of the Apostles.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on November 06, 2012, 03:00:22 PM
If theses people really believe that the Catholic Church has defected, then it seems that one can no longer believe that the Catholic Church is the Church of the Apostles.

But they believe their mission is to restore orthodoxy in the Church (that is Latin orthodoxy as defined by Trent).
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on November 18, 2012, 02:43:11 PM
So apparently you are not allowed to talk about the Eastern Rites for Sacraments in the Liturgy and Sacraments section
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Shlomlokh on November 18, 2012, 03:01:02 PM
So apparently you are not allowed to talk about the Eastern Rites for Sacraments in the Liturgy and Sacraments section
I discovered that 4 years ago. :p I hardly ever post there as I found the people to be too fanatical and paranoid. Some of them make the Spanish Inquisition look like a game of checkers.  ;)

In Christ,
Andrew
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on November 18, 2012, 03:10:01 PM
I just got an infraction for agreeing with someone (who is Orthodox) that the Eucharist should be distributed with both Body and Blood of Christ.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Shlomlokh on November 18, 2012, 03:14:32 PM
I just got an infraction for agreeing with someone (who is Orthodox) that the Eucharist should be distributed with both Body and Blood of Christ.
Shame on you! You just betrayed the teachings of Catholic Faith! You, schismatic, you!  :P  :D that's okay. The worst that happened to me was getting a rebuke from Marduk about becoming Orthodox and some posts/threads deleted without warning.

In Christ,
Andrew
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on November 18, 2012, 03:16:27 PM
I was suspended for a month for telling a fellow Christian that Islam is false even if his Muslim friends are really nice. CAF can be a bit confusing at times...much like the RCC itself, I suppose.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on November 18, 2012, 06:57:49 PM
I just got an infraction for agreeing with someone (who is Orthodox) that the Eucharist should be distributed with both Body and Blood of Christ.
Shame on you! You just betrayed the teachings of Catholic Faith! You, schismatic, you!  :P  :D that's okay. The worst that happened to me was getting a rebuke from Marduk about becoming Orthodox and some posts/threads deleted without warning.

In Christ,
Andrew

Yes, shame on me!  The Eastern Catholic Rites of Sacraments should never be discussed in the Sacraments section of a Catholic forum.  Never!  ::) ;D
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Justin Kolodziej on November 19, 2012, 03:05:45 PM
Not only that, but 90-some% of Roman Catholic parishes now distribute the Body and Blood both at each Mass, along with (afaik) all the Eastern Catholic ones, and the Orthodox. So what sense does a truly Catholic (as opposed to Truly Traditional Tridentine Catholic [In Name Only](R)) forum have in shutting down discussion like that ??? ???

Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on November 19, 2012, 03:07:45 PM
Not only that, but 90-some% of Roman Catholic parishes now distribute the Body and Blood both at each Mass, along with (afaik) all the Eastern Catholic ones, and the Orthodox. So what sense does a truly Catholic (as opposed to Truly Traditional Tridentine Catholic [In Name Only](R)) forum have in shutting down discussion like that ??? ???



Ah, gotcha! Utraquist!
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on November 19, 2012, 03:09:26 PM
I think the mod just doesn't want us Eastern Catholics telling Roman Catholics how good we have it  ;D

I mean, with Communion in both kinds and married Priests and kids under the age of reason receiving Chrismation (confirmation) and Communion, they might jump en masse from Roman Catholicism into Eastern Catholicism  ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on November 19, 2012, 03:10:17 PM
they might jump en masse from Roman Catholicism into Eastern Catholicism  ::) ::) ::)

And we all know what happens next  :P
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on November 19, 2012, 03:15:38 PM
they might jump en masse from Roman Catholicism into Eastern Catholicism  ::) ::) ::)

And we all know what happens next  :P

HAHAHAHAH!  Maybe that is why I get reprimanded for giving the "Eastern point of view"  ;D

"See what happened to you (me)!"  :P
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Clemente on November 19, 2012, 05:50:36 PM
I was banned for a month on CAF for writing that the major problem most Evangelicals have with Roman Catholicism is "Mary, Mary and Mary".

Well, it is.

I just thanked the moderators in a private message for leading me to Orthodoxy and for their sincere efforts. And then I never returned.

Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on November 19, 2012, 05:56:39 PM
I was banned for a month on CAF for writing that the major problem most Evangelicals have with Roman Catholicism is "Mary, Mary and Mary".

Well, it is.

I just thanked the moderators in a private message for leading me to Orthodoxy and for their sincere efforts. And then I never returned.



I remember when I complained to one of the apologists via PM that one of the apologetics crossed the line.  It was someone asking about how Holy Water is used and asked if it is okay to drink Holy Water.  The apologist said it was superstitious for someone to do that, so I said that Eastern Catholics do that as part of our tradition.  Then I got this reply about yeah but they were explaining the RC tradition which is what the site was all about.  I said that is okay, but they can't call something superstitious if it is being practiced by someone they are in communion with even though it is not in their own tradition.

But you are right, that site has played a big part in leading me on the path to Orthodoxy ;)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Wyatt on November 19, 2012, 06:10:33 PM
If your spiritual life is based upon what you read online, it's time to do some serious reevaluating.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on November 19, 2012, 06:16:25 PM
If your spiritual life is based upon what you read online, it's time to do some serious reevaluating.

It is not as simple as it may seem.  It's not just because we were offended by some Catholics online so we decided to leave the Church.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on November 19, 2012, 06:44:42 PM
I think the mod just doesn't want us Eastern Catholics telling Roman Catholics how good we have it  ;D

I mean, with Communion in both kinds and married Priests and kids under the age of reason receiving Chrismation (confirmation) and Communion, they might jump en masse from Roman Catholicism into Eastern Catholicism  ::) ::) ::)

I don't see any intrinsic reason that that wouldn't happen, but history strongly suggests that it won't.

I wasn't expecting the game of checkers.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on November 19, 2012, 06:46:19 PM
I think the mod just doesn't want us Eastern Catholics telling Roman Catholics how good we have it  ;D

I mean, with Communion in both kinds and married Priests and kids under the age of reason receiving Chrismation (confirmation) and Communion, they might jump en masse from Roman Catholicism into Eastern Catholicism  ::) ::) ::)

I don't see any intrinsic reason that that wouldn't happen, but history strongly suggests that it won't.

I wasn't expecting the game of checkers.

Which is why it boggles my mind why they are so sensitive about comments that try to catechize
Roman Catholics about Eastern Catholic practices.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on November 19, 2012, 06:51:32 PM
I remember when I complained to one of the apologists via PM that one of the apologetics crossed the line.  It was someone asking about how Holy Water is used and asked if it is okay to drink Holy Water.  The apologist said it was superstitious for someone to do that, so I said that Eastern Catholics do that as part of our tradition.  Then I got this reply about yeah but they were explaining the RC tradition which is what the site was all about.  I said that is okay, but they can't call something superstitious if it is being practiced by someone they are in communion with even though it is not in their own tradition.

Did anyone mention Lourdes?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on November 19, 2012, 06:56:45 PM
I remember when I complained to one of the apologists via PM that one of the apologetics crossed the line.  It was someone asking about how Holy Water is used and asked if it is okay to drink Holy Water.  The apologist said it was superstitious for someone to do that, so I said that Eastern Catholics do that as part of our tradition.  Then I got this reply about yeah but they were explaining the RC tradition which is what the site was all about.  I said that is okay, but they can't call something superstitious if it is being practiced by someone they are in communion with even though it is not in their own tradition.

Did anyone mention Lourdes?

Ooohhh, good point!
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on January 09, 2013, 01:44:02 PM
heheheheh, I just got my "final warning"  ;D
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Shlomlokh on January 09, 2013, 01:50:09 PM
heheheheh, I just got my "final warning"  ;D
What happened now? I haven't been on in a few days.

In Christ,
Andrew
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on January 09, 2013, 01:54:10 PM
heheheheh, I just got my "final warning"  ;D
What happened now? I haven't been on in a few days.

In Christ,
Andrew

Paraphrasing here, but I am too anti-Pope  ;D
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: JR on January 09, 2013, 02:06:43 PM
heheheheh, I just got my "final warning"  ;D
What happened now? I haven't been on in a few days.

In Christ,
Andrew

Paraphrasing here, but I am too anti-Pope  ;D

Is that a sin now?????
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on January 09, 2013, 02:16:48 PM
heheheheh, I just got my "final warning"  ;D
What happened now? I haven't been on in a few days.

In Christ,
Andrew

Paraphrasing here, but I am too anti-Pope  ;D

Is that a sin now?????

If you're Catholic and as per Pastor Aeternus, then yes.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: J Michael on January 09, 2013, 02:21:13 PM
heheheheh, I just got my "final warning"  ;D
What happened now? I haven't been on in a few days.

In Christ,
Andrew

Paraphrasing here, but I am too anti-Pope  ;D

Does that mean that you are anti-Pope also, or that you are too much anti-Pope (whatever that means)? ;D
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: theistgal on January 09, 2013, 02:34:55 PM
I'm jealous; have never even gotten a warning. Why can't I get banned too??
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: biro on January 09, 2013, 02:38:36 PM
I'm jealous; have never even gotten a warning. Why can't I get banned too??

Because you are a reasonable person.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on January 09, 2013, 02:38:44 PM
I'm jealous; have never even gotten a warning. Why can't I get banned too??

I never got a warning either.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: JR on January 09, 2013, 02:40:01 PM
I'm jealous; have never even gotten a warning. Why can't I get banned too??

I never got a warning either.

Snap.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: J Michael on January 09, 2013, 02:41:03 PM
I'm jealous; have never even gotten a warning. Why can't I get banned too??

I'll bet if you came across as strongly pro-Orthodox and critical of the Catholic Church, especially using exclamation points and bolding your text, you'd make a pretty good start on it.  ;)

Or....you could just start a thread titled something like "Down With the Heretical Schismatic Papacy!!" in the Eastern Christianity forum.  That'd probably do it.  ;D
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on January 09, 2013, 02:56:16 PM
Or....you could just start a thread titled something like "Down With the Heretical Schismatic Papacy!!" in the Eastern Christianity forum. 

I really need to start paying better attention over there.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: J Michael on January 09, 2013, 03:04:32 PM
Or....you could just start a thread titled something like "Down With the Heretical Schismatic Papacy!!" in the Eastern Christianity forum. 

I really need to start paying better attention over there.

Why? :D
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Αριστοκλής on January 09, 2013, 03:23:25 PM
I never got any warning.

Something about being "Orthodox Not in Communion with Rome" must have rattled some cage over there.

Banned within 3 minutes of the post.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: J Michael on January 09, 2013, 03:26:06 PM
I never got any warning.

Something about being "Orthodox Not in Communion with Rome" must have rattled some cage over there.

Banned within 3 minutes of the post.

Bad boy!!!!  8)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Αριστοκλής on January 09, 2013, 03:28:25 PM
I never got any warning.

Something about being "Orthodox Not in Communion with Rome" must have rattled some cage over there.

Banned within 3 minutes of the post.

Bad boy!!!!  8)

 ;D
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: ialmisry on January 09, 2013, 03:42:33 PM
I have seen on Byzcath
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/389390/1
that Mardukm has been censored, and his posts pulled, on CAF for issues he has debated (without problem IIRC) here.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on January 09, 2013, 03:48:50 PM
I'm jealous; have never even gotten a warning. Why can't I get banned too??

Because you are a reasonable person.

+1 :)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on January 09, 2013, 03:51:59 PM

Does that mean that you are anti-Pope also, or that you are too much anti-Pope (whatever that means)? ;D

LOL :p

I guess both! :D
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on January 09, 2013, 03:54:53 PM
I have seen on Byzcath
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/389390/1
that Mardukm has been censored, and his posts pulled, on CAF for issues he has debated (without problem IIRC) here.

I'm one of those he butted heads with and I don't think it is what he said that is the problem, but how he says it.  It is very much part of his reply routine to take a jab or two at someone personally while telling them they are wrong.  I've left threads that I debated with him because I am becoming too uncharitable or have already crossed that line and realized I should stop.

For the record, I have never reported him to the mods, but given that he ticks a lot of people off I am not surprised if a number did report him.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on January 09, 2013, 04:26:26 PM
Oh, I am suspended. LOL!!!


Your use of the word papist smacks of being confrontational, contemptuous, disparaging, inciteful, insulting, or taunting. You are suspended until May 9.

This is a final warning. The next time a moderator needs to send a notice for contemptuous behavior, you will be banned from further participation on the forums.



Those papists.

 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Αριστοκλής on January 09, 2013, 04:35:28 PM
So, it's almost "perp walk" time...
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Ioannis Climacus on January 09, 2013, 04:36:29 PM
Does Mardukm post on OC.net? For what it's worth, I actually preferred debate/discussion with him on CAF to some of the other, shall we say, more emotional posters.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on January 09, 2013, 05:06:04 PM
For people who used to be Catholic and are Orthodox now or are becoming Orthodox: Do you find it more difficult to express yourself on CAF outside of moderation, as well? Because I haven't been disciplined since September, but it seems like anything I post is taken as an attack on Rome, or somehow proving the Latins' point, or something like that. And increasingly it seems like I'll be making some point (or at least thinking that I am!) and the replies from my Catholic interlocutors are completely unrelated. I don't really even know what to do about that. I feel like I might as well be posting in wingdings font, for as well as my conversations go over there 99% of the time (except with one or two posters, who are generally too smart to get involved in these discussions).
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: biro on January 09, 2013, 05:53:07 PM
For people who used to be Catholic and are Orthodox now or are becoming Orthodox: Do you find it more difficult to express yourself on CAF outside of moderation, as well? Because I haven't been disciplined since September, but it seems like anything I post is taken as an attack on Rome, or somehow proving the Latins' point, or something like that. And increasingly it seems like I'll be making some point (or at least thinking that I am!) and the replies from my Catholic interlocutors are completely unrelated. I don't really even know what to do about that. I feel like I might as well be posting in wingdings font, for as well as my conversations go over there 99% of the time (except with one or two posters, who are generally too smart to get involved in these discussions).

Not at all. Again, the OC.net obsession with that darn CAF and thinking they're all of a sudden supposed to agree with you. "All of you RCCers are wrong. Wait, why don't you like me?"

It's their board. Don't worry about it.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on January 09, 2013, 06:01:39 PM
For people who used to be Catholic and are Orthodox now or are becoming Orthodox: Do you find it more difficult to express yourself on CAF outside of moderation, as well? Because I haven't been disciplined since September, but it seems like anything I post is taken as an attack on Rome, or somehow proving the Latins' point, or something like that. And increasingly it seems like I'll be making some point (or at least thinking that I am!) and the replies from my Catholic interlocutors are completely unrelated. I don't really even know what to do about that. I feel like I might as well be posting in wingdings font, for as well as my conversations go over there 99% of the time (except with one or two posters, who are generally too smart to get involved in these discussions).

Yes.  I have been questioning the Papacy since at least Summer.  And then only now when I changed my "religion" on CAF to "OCA catechumen" I suddenly get suspended for 5 months.  I have not changed my tone from where it was 5 months ago.  I guess this falls into that "PC" mentality, that it is okay to disparge a certain group if you belong to that group, but if you are not part of that group then you are racist, hateful, bigotted, etc.

I've also had other CAF posters suddenly come down very hard on me the moment I updated "religion".  And I reminded them that it is not about me being negative about Catholicism because I am leaving it, I have been talking that way for a while now even when I was fully a Catholic.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on January 09, 2013, 06:02:27 PM
For people who used to be Catholic and are Orthodox now or are becoming Orthodox: Do you find it more difficult to express yourself on CAF outside of moderation, as well? Because I haven't been disciplined since September, but it seems like anything I post is taken as an attack on Rome, or somehow proving the Latins' point, or something like that. And increasingly it seems like I'll be making some point (or at least thinking that I am!) and the replies from my Catholic interlocutors are completely unrelated. I don't really even know what to do about that. I feel like I might as well be posting in wingdings font, for as well as my conversations go over there 99% of the time (except with one or two posters, who are generally too smart to get involved in these discussions).

Not at all. Again, the OC.net obsession with that darn CAF and thinking they're all of a sudden supposed to agree with you. "All of you RCCers are wrong. Wait, why don't you like me?"

It's their board. Don't worry about it.

Those of us who are concerned (in some way, shape or form) are current or former posters of CAF.  We're just comparing notes here.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: biro on January 09, 2013, 06:03:04 PM
For people who used to be Catholic and are Orthodox now or are becoming Orthodox: Do you find it more difficult to express yourself on CAF outside of moderation, as well? Because I haven't been disciplined since September, but it seems like anything I post is taken as an attack on Rome, or somehow proving the Latins' point, or something like that. And increasingly it seems like I'll be making some point (or at least thinking that I am!) and the replies from my Catholic interlocutors are completely unrelated. I don't really even know what to do about that. I feel like I might as well be posting in wingdings font, for as well as my conversations go over there 99% of the time (except with one or two posters, who are generally too smart to get involved in these discussions).

Yes.  I have been questioning the Papacy since at least Summer.  And then only now when I changed my "religion" on CAF to "OCA catechumen" I suddenly get suspended for 5 months.  I have not changed my tone from where it was 5 months ago.  I guess this falls into that "PC" mentality, that it is okay to disparge a certain group if you belong to that group, but if you are not part of that group then you are racist, hateful, bigotted, etc.

I've also had other CAF posters suddenly come down very hard on me the moment I updated "religion".  And I reminded them that it is not about me being negative about Catholicism because I am leaving it, I have been talking that way for a while now even when I was fully a Catholic.

It's an RCC site. When you go on that site and you question them, and you say you want to quit their church, what are they supposed to do, kiss you?
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: biro on January 09, 2013, 06:06:06 PM
For people who used to be Catholic and are Orthodox now or are becoming Orthodox: Do you find it more difficult to express yourself on CAF outside of moderation, as well? Because I haven't been disciplined since September, but it seems like anything I post is taken as an attack on Rome, or somehow proving the Latins' point, or something like that. And increasingly it seems like I'll be making some point (or at least thinking that I am!) and the replies from my Catholic interlocutors are completely unrelated. I don't really even know what to do about that. I feel like I might as well be posting in wingdings font, for as well as my conversations go over there 99% of the time (except with one or two posters, who are generally too smart to get involved in these discussions).

Not at all. Again, the OC.net obsession with that darn CAF and thinking they're all of a sudden supposed to agree with you. "All of you RCCers are wrong. Wait, why don't you like me?"

It's their board. Don't worry about it.

Those of us who are concerned (in some way, shape or form) are current or former posters of CAF.  We're just comparing notes here.

I'm a current member of CAF too. And there was a big purge of Orthodox members a long time ago, because many of them really were rude and disruptive. I should know; I was the target of their verbal abuse on many occasions. I won't name names, because some of them are still here and I for some reason don't want to get banned. But I know what I know.

Why was it so hard for some of that crowd to admit they maybe shouldn't have done what they did, and they messed it up for everybody? Do Orthodox people just think they're never wrong?  ???
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on January 09, 2013, 06:11:15 PM
I'm a current member of CAF too. And there was a big purge of Orthodox members a long time ago, because many of them really were rude and disruptive. I should know; I was the target of their verbal abuse on many occasions. I won't name names, because some of them are still here and I for some reason don't want to get banned. But I know what I know.

Why was it so hard for some of that crowd to admit they maybe shouldn't have done what they did, and they messed it up for everybody? Do Orthodox people just think they're never wrong?  ???

Its not about being right or wrong.  I do admit some people do handle the discussion better than others but the issue is, why can't we have such discussions?  It seems that if you are not Catholic you can only say nice things about the Catholic Church regardless of what your views are or even what the truth is.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cavaradossi on January 09, 2013, 07:06:37 PM
For people who used to be Catholic and are Orthodox now or are becoming Orthodox: Do you find it more difficult to express yourself on CAF outside of moderation, as well? Because I haven't been disciplined since September, but it seems like anything I post is taken as an attack on Rome, or somehow proving the Latins' point, or something like that. And increasingly it seems like I'll be making some point (or at least thinking that I am!) and the replies from my Catholic interlocutors are completely unrelated. I don't really even know what to do about that. I feel like I might as well be posting in wingdings font, for as well as my conversations go over there 99% of the time (except with one or two posters, who are generally too smart to get involved in these discussions).

The comment about wingdings font is right on. I feel like they take no time trying to understand the Orthodox position, and when it becomes clear that they do not really understand it, they just fall back on a bunch of irrelevant prooftexts. I think posting those walls of prooftexts must be to hide their own insecurity or something.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on January 09, 2013, 09:03:51 PM
Not at all. Again, the OC.net obsession with that darn CAF and thinking they're all of a sudden supposed to agree with you.


CAF is the topic of this thread, so it's not quite an obsession to bring it up here. And I was asking about being understood, not agreed with. I already know that RCs and I disagree on some things, and don't expect that to change.

Quote
"All of you RCCers are wrong. Wait, why don't you like me?"

Is that what I wrote?

Quote
It's their board. Don't worry about it.

Meh. I wouldn't say 'worry' is the right word here. I was just curious if anyone else had been experiencing the same phenomenon.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on January 09, 2013, 11:57:02 PM
Again, the OC.net obsession with that darn CAF

And here I thought I was the only one who believed that obsession exists.  ;D
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on January 09, 2013, 11:58:18 PM
Yes.  I have been questioning the Papacy since at least Summer.  And then only now when I changed my "religion" on CAF to "OCA catechumen" I suddenly get suspended for 5 months.  

Wow. (no emoticon required)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: dzheremi on January 10, 2013, 12:07:47 AM
Hmm. The longest I was suspended was one month. I guess Choy is five times more anti-Pope than me. I do my best, darn it! :'(
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on January 10, 2013, 02:35:26 AM
Sorry guys, bad math. Its only 4 months :p

Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: JR on January 10, 2013, 02:41:59 AM
Me, Life time ban.... bad boy  :D
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on January 10, 2013, 04:33:41 AM
Me, Life time ban.... bad boy  :D

Been there, done that  ;D
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Irish Melkite on January 10, 2013, 06:38:37 AM
I have seen on Byzcath
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/389390/1
that Mardukm has been censored, and his posts pulled, on CAF for issues he has debated (without problem IIRC) here.

I'm one of those he butted heads with and I don't think it is what he said that is the problem, but how he says it.  It is very much part of his reply routine to take a jab or two at someone personally while telling them they are wrong.  I've left threads that I debated with him because I am becoming too uncharitable or have already crossed that line and realized I should stop.

For the record, I have never reported him to the mods, but given that he ticks a lot of people off I am not surprised if a number did report him.

I'd have to disagree. I've known mardukm online at Byzcath and CAF for many years and have watched him go through several phases in that time - initially from Coptic Orthodox to Coptic Catholic. When still Orthodox, he was a relatively infrequent and not very outspoken poster. After he made the transition between Churches, he gradually ratcheted up both the frequency and outspokenness of his posts.

Initially, his outlook and posting appeared to me, and many others, to be highly latinized. Subsequently, he mellowed somewhat, but remained 'very Catholic' - perhaps not as hard-core, but still western in many of his views. In the last couple of years, his postings have seemed to me to reflect a significantly more eastern outlook - still 'Catholic', but less inclined to be accepting of being treated like a red-haired stepchild by Rome.

However, through all that time, I've never observed him to be someone who injected personal jabs into his debates and can't imagine that to have been a significant factor in his suspension or banning, whichever it was that they laid on him. I rather suspect that his less than full enthusiasm for the doctrine or dogma of the Immaculate Conception was his undoing - that would be about par for a site that doesn't understand anything about the distinctions in theological understanding between West and East.

But, I suspect that anyone who can legitimately claim full understanding of the CAF mentality could also explain the Theory of Relativity in a way that could be understood by 2 year olds. Being able to do either of those things would be a true wonderment. Any site that can view my good friend, Michael/Hesychios, as someone deserving of a ban can hardly be expected to exercise soound judgment in analyzing the dangers that more outspoken posters pose to the faith of the Latin masses for which the site operates.

But, what do I know? having myself been spotted for the rabble-rousing, Catholic-bashing, Orthodox in Catholic clothing that I clearly am? They found me out! (I rather suspect that they're still watching and waiting for me to declare that I've 'doxed - cause they're absolutely convinced that it's due to happn any day, week, month, or year now :D )

Many years,

Neil
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cyrillic on January 10, 2013, 11:44:50 AM
Me, Life time ban.... bad boy  :D

I was banned for two lifetimes.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on January 10, 2013, 12:02:01 PM
I have seen on Byzcath
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/389390/1
that Mardukm has been censored, and his posts pulled, on CAF for issues he has debated (without problem IIRC) here.

I'm one of those he butted heads with and I don't think it is what he said that is the problem, but how he says it.  It is very much part of his reply routine to take a jab or two at someone personally while telling them they are wrong.  I've left threads that I debated with him because I am becoming too uncharitable or have already crossed that line and realized I should stop.

For the record, I have never reported him to the mods, but given that he ticks a lot of people off I am not surprised if a number did report him.

I'd have to disagree. I've known mardukm online at Byzcath and CAF for many years and have watched him go through several phases in that time - initially from Coptic Orthodox to Coptic Catholic. When still Orthodox, he was a relatively infrequent and not very outspoken poster. After he made the transition between Churches, he gradually ratcheted up both the frequency and outspokenness of his posts.

Initially, his outlook and posting appeared to me, and many others, to be highly latinized. Subsequently, he mellowed somewhat, but remained 'very Catholic' - perhaps not as hard-core, but still western in many of his views. In the last couple of years, his postings have seemed to me to reflect a significantly more eastern outlook - still 'Catholic', but less inclined to be accepting of being treated like a red-haired stepchild by Rome.

However, through all that time, I've never observed him to be someone who injected personal jabs into his debates and can't imagine that to have been a significant factor in his suspension or banning, whichever it was that they laid on him. I rather suspect that his less than full enthusiasm for the doctrine or dogma of the Immaculate Conception was his undoing - that would be about par for a site that doesn't understand anything about the distinctions in theological understanding between West and East.

But, I suspect that anyone who can legitimately claim full understanding of the CAF mentality could also explain the Theory of Relativity in a way that could be understood by 2 year olds. Being able to do either of those things would be a true wonderment. Any site that can view my good friend, Michael/Hesychios, as someone deserving of a ban can hardly be expected to exercise soound judgment in analyzing the dangers that more outspoken posters pose to the faith of the Latin masses for which the site operates.

But, what do I know? having myself been spotted for the rabble-rousing, Catholic-bashing, Orthodox in Catholic clothing that I clearly am? They found me out! (I rather suspect that they're still watching and waiting for me to declare that I've 'doxed - cause they're absolutely convinced that it's due to happn any day, week, month, or year now :D )

Many years,

Neil

Maybe he likes you Neil.  But I am not the only person who says this, so I'm pretty sure I am not imagining things.  He does have a high respect for people who agree with him, but don't we all?

And to be fair, its not like I'm trying to talk behind his back here. I know he can read this if he wants to.  I've already openly called him out on those personal jabs on CAF many, many times.  I'm not trying to gossip about him here, he knows what I am talking about.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on January 10, 2013, 12:04:41 PM
Me, Life time ban.... bad boy  :D

I was banned for two lifetimes.

I'm close to pulling up even with you  ;D

I'm not planning to be back though.  By the time the ban is lifted I would have completed my Papal Apostasy  ;D
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on January 10, 2013, 01:21:03 PM
Me, Life time ban.... bad boy  :D

I was banned for two lifetimes.

I'm close to pulling up even with you  ;D

I'm not planning to be back though.  By the time the ban is lifted I would have completed my Papal Apostasy  ;D

I have, at times, gone a good while without participating there. But ultimately I'm always glad that I've never been banned, so I have the option of returning later.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on January 10, 2013, 01:23:20 PM
Or....you could just start a thread titled something like "Down With the Heretical Schismatic Papacy!!" in the Eastern Christianity forum. 

I really need to start paying better attention over there.

Why? :D

Well, not to be overly hard on myself, but if I didn't notice the return of the Eastern Christianity forum then I should go back to grad school.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: J Michael on January 10, 2013, 01:27:50 PM
Or....you could just start a thread titled something like "Down With the Heretical Schismatic Papacy!!" in the Eastern Christianity forum. 

I really need to start paying better attention over there.

Why? :D

Well, not to be overly hard on myself, but if I didn't notice the return of the Eastern Christianity forum then I should go back to grad school.

I just noticed that the forum is actually called "Eastern Catholicism".  Shows you how much time I spend over there. ;D  Maybe *I* should go back to grad school.  Oops..wait...I never went to begin with  ;D ;D.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: choy on January 10, 2013, 01:50:21 PM
I have, at times, gone a good while without participating there. But ultimately I'm always glad that I've never been banned, so I have the option of returning later.

I actually prematurely changed my religious affiliation there to OCA catechumen because I was planning on leaving and not coming back.  But it was irresistable  ;D

I'm glad I'm suspended.  It would really force me to stop going there which on my own I cannot do.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Agabus on January 10, 2013, 02:03:18 PM
I have seen on Byzcath
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/389390/1
that Mardukm has been censored, and his posts pulled, on CAF for issues he has debated (without problem IIRC) here.

I think the criticisms against certain apologetical elements in certain Catholic and Orthodox circles in that thread are spot on. I'm going to have to remember the "Magisterium of Lay Apologists."
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on January 10, 2013, 02:16:15 PM
I have seen on Byzcath
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/389390/1
that Mardukm has been censored, and his posts pulled, on CAF for issues he has debated (without problem IIRC) here.

I think the criticisms against certain apologetical elements in certain Catholic and Orthodox circles in that thread are spot on. I'm going to have to remember the "Magisterium of Lay Apologists."
Wait, are you saying the Orthodox aren't perferct? I'm shocked.

;)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on January 10, 2013, 02:19:27 PM
Or....you could just start a thread titled something like "Down With the Heretical Schismatic Papacy!!" in the Eastern Christianity forum. 

I really need to start paying better attention over there.

Why? :D

Well, not to be overly hard on myself, but if I didn't notice the return of the Eastern Christianity forum then I should go back to grad school.

I just noticed that the forum is actually called "Eastern Catholicism".  Shows you how much time I spend over there. ;D  Maybe *I* should go back to grad school.  Oops..wait...I never went to begin with  ;D ;D.

CAF did have an Eastern Christianity section but it changed several years ago, before you signed up I believe.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: ialmisry on January 10, 2013, 03:25:50 PM
I have seen on Byzcath
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/389390/1
that Mardukm has been censored, and his posts pulled, on CAF for issues he has debated (without problem IIRC) here.

I'm one of those he butted heads with and I don't think it is what he said that is the problem, but how he says it.  It is very much part of his reply routine to take a jab or two at someone personally while telling them they are wrong.  I've left threads that I debated with him because I am becoming too uncharitable or have already crossed that line and realized I should stop.

For the record, I have never reported him to the mods, but given that he ticks a lot of people off I am not surprised if a number did report him.

I'd have to disagree. I've known mardukm online at Byzcath and CAF for many years and have watched him go through several phases in that time - initially from Coptic Orthodox to Coptic Catholic. When still Orthodox, he was a relatively infrequent and not very outspoken poster. After he made the transition between Churches, he gradually ratcheted up both the frequency and outspokenness of his posts.

Initially, his outlook and posting appeared to me, and many others, to be highly latinized. Subsequently, he mellowed somewhat, but remained 'very Catholic' - perhaps not as hard-core, but still western in many of his views. In the last couple of years, his postings have seemed to me to reflect a significantly more eastern outlook - still 'Catholic', but less inclined to be accepting of being treated like a red-haired stepchild by Rome.

However, through all that time, I've never observed him to be someone who injected personal jabs into his debates and can't imagine that to have been a significant factor in his suspension or banning, whichever it was that they laid on him. I rather suspect that his less than full enthusiasm for the doctrine or dogma of the Immaculate Conception was his undoing - that would be about par for a site that doesn't understand anything about the distinctions in theological understanding between West and East.

But, I suspect that anyone who can legitimately claim full understanding of the CAF mentality could also explain the Theory of Relativity in a way that could be understood by 2 year olds. Being able to do either of those things would be a true wonderment. Any site that can view my good friend, Michael/Hesychios, as someone deserving of a ban can hardly be expected to exercise soound judgment in analyzing the dangers that more outspoken posters pose to the faith of the Latin masses for which the site operates.

But, what do I know? having myself been spotted for the rabble-rousing, Catholic-bashing, Orthodox in Catholic clothing that I clearly am? They found me out! (I rather suspect that they're still watching and waiting for me to declare that I've 'doxed - cause they're absolutely convinced that it's due to happn any day, week, month, or year now :D )
They're not the only ones hoping on that  ;).

But any site that can ban Hesychios has some fatal flaws and serious problems, as was shown also in their treatment of you.

As for Mardukm's jabs, he can engage into pseudo-psycho-analysis of someone's motives, context and background, which can be offputting-if you take it serious. Although I always found him an enthusiastic supporter of the IC, on several threads here and elsewhere.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: stanley123 on January 10, 2013, 08:55:46 PM
I have seen on Byzcath
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/389390/1
that Mardukm has been censored, and his posts pulled, on CAF for issues he has debated (without problem IIRC) here.

I'm one of those he butted heads with and I don't think it is what he said that is the problem, but how he says it.  It is very much part of his reply routine to take a jab or two at someone personally while telling them they are wrong.  I've left threads that I debated with him because I am becoming too uncharitable or have already crossed that line and realized I should stop.

For the record, I have never reported him to the mods, but given that he ticks a lot of people off I am not surprised if a number did report him.

I'd have to disagree. I've known mardukm online at Byzcath and CAF for many years and have watched him go through several phases in that time - initially from Coptic Orthodox to Coptic Catholic. When still Orthodox, he was a relatively infrequent and not very outspoken poster. After he made the transition between Churches, he gradually ratcheted up both the frequency and outspokenness of his posts.

Initially, his outlook and posting appeared to me, and many others, to be highly latinized. Subsequently, he mellowed somewhat, but remained 'very Catholic' - perhaps not as hard-core, but still western in many of his views. In the last couple of years, his postings have seemed to me to reflect a significantly more eastern outlook - still 'Catholic', but less inclined to be accepting of being treated like a red-haired stepchild by Rome.

However, through all that time, I've never observed him to be someone who injected personal jabs into his debates and can't imagine that to have been a significant factor in his suspension or banning, whichever it was that they laid on him. I rather suspect that his less than full enthusiasm for the doctrine or dogma of the Immaculate Conception was his undoing - that would be about par for a site that doesn't understand anything about the distinctions in theological understanding between West and East.

But, I suspect that anyone who can legitimately claim full understanding of the CAF mentality could also explain the Theory of Relativity in a way that could be understood by 2 year olds. Being able to do either of those things would be a true wonderment. Any site that can view my good friend, Michael/Hesychios, as someone deserving of a ban can hardly be expected to exercise soound judgment in analyzing the dangers that more outspoken posters pose to the faith of the Latin masses for which the site operates.

But, what do I know? having myself been spotted for the rabble-rousing, Catholic-bashing, Orthodox in Catholic clothing that I clearly am? They found me out! (I rather suspect that they're still watching and waiting for me to declare that I've 'doxed - cause they're absolutely convinced that it's due to happn any day, week, month, or year now :D )
They're not the only ones hoping on that  ;).

But any site that can ban Hesychios has some fatal flaws and serious problems, as was shown also in their treatment of you.

As for Mardukm's jabs, he can engage into pseudo-psycho-analysis of someone's motives, context and background, which can be offputting-if you take it serious. Although I always found him an enthusiastic supporter of the IC, on several threads here and elsewhere.
I agree with you on Hesychios. He had some very informative comments and posts.
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on January 11, 2013, 10:44:37 AM
I have seen on Byzcath
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/389390/1
that Mardukm has been censored, and his posts pulled, on CAF for issues he has debated (without problem IIRC) here.

I'm one of those he butted heads with and I don't think it is what he said that is the problem, but how he says it.  It is very much part of his reply routine to take a jab or two at someone personally while telling them they are wrong.  I've left threads that I debated with him because I am becoming too uncharitable or have already crossed that line and realized I should stop.

For the record, I have never reported him to the mods, but given that he ticks a lot of people off I am not surprised if a number did report him.

I'd have to disagree. I've known mardukm online at Byzcath and CAF for many years and have watched him go through several phases in that time - initially from Coptic Orthodox to Coptic Catholic. When still Orthodox, he was a relatively infrequent and not very outspoken poster. After he made the transition between Churches, he gradually ratcheted up both the frequency and outspokenness of his posts.

Initially, his outlook and posting appeared to me, and many others, to be highly latinized. Subsequently, he mellowed somewhat, but remained 'very Catholic' - perhaps not as hard-core, but still western in many of his views. In the last couple of years, his postings have seemed to me to reflect a significantly more eastern outlook - still 'Catholic', but less inclined to be accepting of being treated like a red-haired stepchild by Rome.

However, through all that time, I've never observed him to be someone who injected personal jabs into his debates and can't imagine that to have been a significant factor in his suspension or banning, whichever it was that they laid on him. I rather suspect that his less than full enthusiasm for the doctrine or dogma of the Immaculate Conception was his undoing - that would be about par for a site that doesn't understand anything about the distinctions in theological understanding between West and East.

But, I suspect that anyone who can legitimately claim full understanding of the CAF mentality could also explain the Theory of Relativity in a way that could be understood by 2 year olds. Being able to do either of those things would be a true wonderment. Any site that can view my good friend, Michael/Hesychios, as someone deserving of a ban can hardly be expected to exercise soound judgment in analyzing the dangers that more outspoken posters pose to the faith of the Latin masses for which the site operates.

But, what do I know? having myself been spotted for the rabble-rousing, Catholic-bashing, Orthodox in Catholic clothing that I clearly am? They found me out! (I rather suspect that they're still watching and waiting for me to declare that I've 'doxed - cause they're absolutely convinced that it's due to happn any day, week, month, or year now :D )
They're not the only ones hoping on that  ;).

But any site that can ban Hesychios has some fatal flaws and serious problems, as was shown also in their treatment of you.

You know what would be great? It just occurred to me: if CAF reversed the process with Hesychios. I mean, instead of first making him a moderator and then banning him (as they did with Neil), they should make him a moderator after banning him. They've already completed step one. :)
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Cavaradossi on January 11, 2013, 06:18:44 PM
I have seen on Byzcath
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/389390/1
that Mardukm has been censored, and his posts pulled, on CAF for issues he has debated (without problem IIRC) here.

I'm one of those he butted heads with and I don't think it is what he said that is the problem, but how he says it.  It is very much part of his reply routine to take a jab or two at someone personally while telling them they are wrong.  I've left threads that I debated with him because I am becoming too uncharitable or have already crossed that line and realized I should stop.

For the record, I have never reported him to the mods, but given that he ticks a lot of people off I am not surprised if a number did report him.

I'd have to disagree. I've known mardukm online at Byzcath and CAF for many years and have watched him go through several phases in that time - initially from Coptic Orthodox to Coptic Catholic. When still Orthodox, he was a relatively infrequent and not very outspoken poster. After he made the transition between Churches, he gradually ratcheted up both the frequency and outspokenness of his posts.

Initially, his outlook and posting appeared to me, and many others, to be highly latinized. Subsequently, he mellowed somewhat, but remained 'very Catholic' - perhaps not as hard-core, but still western in many of his views. In the last couple of years, his postings have seemed to me to reflect a significantly more eastern outlook - still 'Catholic', but less inclined to be accepting of being treated like a red-haired stepchild by Rome.

However, through all that time, I've never observed him to be someone who injected personal jabs into his debates and can't imagine that to have been a significant factor in his suspension or banning, whichever it was that they laid on him. I rather suspect that his less than full enthusiasm for the doctrine or dogma of the Immaculate Conception was his undoing - that would be about par for a site that doesn't understand anything about the distinctions in theological understanding between West and East.

But, I suspect that anyone who can legitimately claim full understanding of the CAF mentality could also explain the Theory of Relativity in a way that could be understood by 2 year olds. Being able to do either of those things would be a true wonderment. Any site that can view my good friend, Michael/Hesychios, as someone deserving of a ban can hardly be expected to exercise soound judgment in analyzing the dangers that more outspoken posters pose to the faith of the Latin masses for which the site operates.

But, what do I know? having myself been spotted for the rabble-rousing, Catholic-bashing, Orthodox in Catholic clothing that I clearly am? They found me out! (I rather suspect that they're still watching and waiting for me to declare that I've 'doxed - cause they're absolutely convinced that it's due to happn any day, week, month, or year now :D )
They're not the only ones hoping on that  ;).

But any site that can ban Hesychios has some fatal flaws and serious problems, as was shown also in their treatment of you.

You know what would be great? It just occurred to me: if CAF reversed the process with Hesychios. I mean, instead of first making him a moderator and then banning him (as they did with Neil), they should make him a moderator after banning him. They've already completed step one. :)

How very Kafkaesque. :laugh:
Title: Re: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!
Post by: Peter J on January 11, 2013, 07:40:25 PM
I have seen on Byzcath
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/389390/1
that Mardukm has been censored, and his posts pulled, on CAF for issues he has debated (without problem IIRC) here.

I'm one of those he butted heads with and I don't think it is what he said that is the problem, but how he says it.  It is very much part of his reply routine to take a jab or two at someone personally while telling them they are wrong.  I've left threads that I debated with him because I am becoming too uncharitable or have already crossed that line and realized I should stop.

For the record, I have never reported him to the mods, but given that he ticks a lot of people off I am not surprised if a number did report him.

I'd have to disagree. I've known mardukm online at Byzcath and CAF for many years and have watched him go through several phases in that time - initially from Coptic Orthodox to Coptic Catholic. When still Orthodox, he was a relatively infrequent and not very outspoken poster. After he made the transition between Churches, he gradually ratcheted up both the frequency and outspokenness of his posts.

Initially, his outlook and