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Moderated Forums => Liturgy => Western Rite Discussion => Topic started by: henrikhankhagnell on August 08, 2011, 10:19:46 AM

Title: mass intentions?
Post by: henrikhankhagnell on August 08, 2011, 10:19:46 AM
Do Western Orthodoxes offer Mass intentions like Roman Catholics do?
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: theistgal on August 08, 2011, 10:21:13 AM
I would assume they do, since the Orthodox parish near me lists intentions in its bulletin for their weekday liturgies.
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: mike on August 08, 2011, 10:28:36 AM
I don't like it.
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: Shanghaiski on August 08, 2011, 12:22:26 PM
Sounds like a post-schism development. The mass/liturgy is so much more than that.
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: theistgal on August 08, 2011, 05:59:28 PM
I don't like it.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  And others may disagree with you.
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: mike on August 09, 2011, 02:17:49 AM
Mass intentions, private Masses, Mass celebrated by one Priest for himself are activities to separate believers from the Mass, separate Mass from the believers, separate clergy from laity and laity from clergy. These are heretic practises.
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: Alpo on August 09, 2011, 02:36:06 AM
Mass intentions, private Masses, Mass celebrated by one Priest for himself are activities to separate believers from the Mass, separate Mass from the believers, separate clergy from laity and laity from clergy. These are heretic practises.

But isn't it customary to celebrate liturgies on specific anniversaries of people's death? Sounds like Mass intention for me albeit in a not so developed form as in the Roman church.
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: mike on August 09, 2011, 02:40:30 AM
But isn't it customary to celebrate liturgies on specific anniversaries of people's death? Sounds like Mass intention for me albeit in a not so developed form as in the Roman church.

On but not for. There is one Mass intention: in all and for all and it can't be limitted.
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: Alpo on August 09, 2011, 03:43:52 AM
But isn't it customary to celebrate liturgies on specific anniversaries of people's death? Sounds like Mass intention for me albeit in a not so developed form as in the Roman church.

On but not for.

So those liturgies just happen to coincide with anniversaries of people's death but they doesn't benefit the deceased in any way?
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: mike on August 09, 2011, 03:49:51 AM
They doesn't benefit the deceased 'more' than 'normal' Liturgies.
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: Alpo on August 09, 2011, 05:39:40 AM
They doesn't benefit the deceased 'more' than 'normal' Liturgies.

I don't think that RCs believe that either. So basically we do have Mass intentions.

EDIT: And now that I think of it we might also have private masses. I've understood that some schemamonks celebrate liturgies on their own.
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: Asteriktos on August 09, 2011, 05:42:25 AM
They doesn't benefit the deceased 'more' than 'normal' Liturgies.

I don't think that RCs believe that either. So basically we do have Mass intentions.

I wasn't aware of liturgies being dedicated to or for people. I thought it was just the memorial prayers or whatever at the end that was for the deceased person.
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: mike on August 09, 2011, 05:53:48 AM
I've understood that some schemamonks celebrate liturgies on their own.

They shouldn't.
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: Alpo on August 09, 2011, 05:55:17 AM
They doesn't benefit the deceased 'more' than 'normal' Liturgies.

I don't think that RCs believe that either. So basically we do have Mass intentions.

I wasn't aware of liturgies being dedicated to or for people. I thought it was just the memorial prayers or whatever at the end that was for the deceased person.

Then why to celebrate a liturgy instead of some minor prayer service?
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: mike on August 09, 2011, 06:01:30 AM
Prayer on proskomedia is the most powerful prayer for the departed.
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: henrikhankhagnell on February 11, 2012, 05:52:16 PM
Mass intentions, private Masses, Mass celebrated by one Priest for himself are activities to separate believers from the Mass, separate Mass from the believers, separate clergy from laity and laity from clergy. These are heretic practises.
???
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: username! on February 11, 2012, 06:06:29 PM
Do Western Orthodoxes offer Mass intentions like Roman Catholics do?

the ACROD cathedral and seminary do, they will let you give them a family member's name and they do a litany of the departed during the liturgy for that deceased person.
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: mike on February 11, 2012, 06:12:55 PM
At my parish priests do a litany of the departed every Sunday (twice as we have 2 Sunday Liturgies).
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: JamesRottnek on February 11, 2012, 10:15:11 PM
I've understood that some schemamonks celebrate liturgies on their own.

They shouldn't.

It is impossible to pray the liturgy on your own.  You are ALWAYS invisibly surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses, to include the angels and saints of God.  Some schemamonks do celebrate the liturgy without other, visible, persons present, but there isn't anything inherently wrong with this.  Even some saints have been known to do this.  If I'm not mistaken (and, by the way, this is what I gathered from a thread elsewhere on the board that touched on the issue), the whole idea that a priest isn't to celebrate the liturgy without others present is derived from the actual prohibition on private liturgies in the sense of liturgies that the priest keeps anyone else from attending.
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: NicholasMyra on February 12, 2012, 04:55:26 AM
At my parish priests do a litany of the departed every Sunday (twice as we have 2 Sunday Liturgies).
Mass intentions, as someone stated, involves doing the liturgy "for" someone or something. Commemorating and praying for someone during a liturgy is not doing the liturgy "for" someone. Someone is being included in the normal liturgy.

RC's will have a "mass for christian unity" or something like that.
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: Alpo on February 12, 2012, 05:42:23 AM
RC's will have a "mass for christian unity" or something like that.

So basically a mass in which the faithful are praying for Christian unity.
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: NicholasMyra on February 12, 2012, 05:25:30 PM
RC's will have a "mass for christian unity" or something like that.

So basically a mass in which the faithful are praying for Christian unity.
It's the intention of the mass itself, versus simply prayers within the mass.

Like, "today, we're offering the Eucharist on behalf of Christian unity".

The Orthodox object because the Eucharist is always "on behalf of all, and for all" making a specifically-dedicated eucharist either redundant or blasphemous.

Often, however, it's just "and for all that stuff in our book of intentions today" which isn't really that big of a deal.
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: username! on February 12, 2012, 06:45:27 PM
At my parish priests do a litany of the departed every Sunday (twice as we have 2 Sunday Liturgies).

Oh my! I read on wikipedia that saturdays were for the departed and having two liturgies in the same day is just soo... catholic.........  (I'm just teasing Mike).

See, Mike you have many of the same traditions in Poland that we have in our churches here.
That I am serious about.  Ok, we don't do that two liturgy thing because we don't have enough people in most of our parishes though.
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: mike on February 12, 2012, 06:49:58 PM
More than one priest, separate antimensions, separate altars (we have 2 Churches on 2 storeys in one building) or there is a table placed put that is used as an altar. There are parishes that have 3 Sunday Liturgies.

Litany for the departed every Liturgy is a mine parish's custom. I don't see it anywhere else.
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: username! on February 12, 2012, 06:52:13 PM
More than one priest, separate antimensions, separate altars (we have 2 Churches on 2 storeys in one building) or there is a table placed put that is used as an altar. There are parishes that have 3 Sunday Liturgies.

Litany for the departed every Liturgy is a mine parish's custom. I don't see it anywhere else.

Usually we'd do a panachida on Sunday. I wish we had enough people to have that many liturgies.  Even in our big cities the biggest parishes are under 2000 people in membership.
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: mike on February 12, 2012, 06:54:13 PM
The average PAOC parish is 2600 (according to statistics) what means there are several that are 10k +.
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: username! on February 12, 2012, 06:55:44 PM
The average PAOC parish is 2600 (according to statistics) what means there are several that are 10k +.

That's awesome.
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: mike on February 12, 2012, 06:58:32 PM
No, that's insane. IMO parishes shouldn't have more than 500 members.
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: username! on February 12, 2012, 07:01:59 PM
No, that's insane. IMO parishes shouldn't have more than 500 members.

Many of our parishes are down to less than 15 people attending on a sunday no matter what jurisdiction.
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: mike on February 12, 2012, 07:06:34 PM
I'd prefer to attend such a parish. Actually when I'm in Warsaw I attend a Mission that has no more than 200 members (let say 20 people on vigil and 80 on Liturgy). And I feel great in there.
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: username! on February 12, 2012, 07:28:08 PM
I'd prefer to attend such a parish. Actually when I'm in Warsaw I attend a Mission that has no more than 200 members (let say 20 people on vigil and 80 on Liturgy). And I feel great in there.

Probably the most well attended two parishes around are that size in my part of the world.
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: primuspilus on February 13, 2012, 02:49:22 PM
Could someone help me out? Intentions?

Like having a liturgy on a Saint's day or something?

PP
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: NicholasMyra on February 13, 2012, 06:08:51 PM
Could someone help me out? Intentions?

Like having a liturgy on a Saint's day or something?

PP
"Today, we're sacrificing the Eucharist on behalf of Nabisco's 'ritz' cracker."
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: akimori makoto on February 13, 2012, 06:37:39 PM
Could someone help me out? Intentions?

Like having a liturgy on a Saint's day or something?

PP

Having a mass specifically for the repose of a particular soul would be an example, if I am understanding the concept correctly. The mass is offered specifically on behalf of that person, specifically for his or her benefit.

Contrast the above with commemorating a soul during the liturgy and making certain supplications for its salvation, deliverance, &c.

I do not believe they are the same.
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: NicholasMyra on February 13, 2012, 09:38:30 PM
Could someone help me out? Intentions?

Like having a liturgy on a Saint's day or something?

PP

Having a mass specifically for the repose of a particular soul would be an example, if I am understanding the concept correctly. The mass is offered specifically on behalf of that person, specifically for his or her benefit.

Contrast the above with commemorating a soul during the liturgy and making certain supplications for its salvation, deliverance, &c.

I do not believe they are the same.
"On behalf of Joe, for Joe."
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: mike on February 14, 2012, 05:33:15 AM
"in all and for all"
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: Scotty on February 14, 2012, 01:47:19 PM
Mass intentions, private Masses, Mass celebrated by one Priest for himself are activities to separate believers from the Mass, separate Mass from the believers, separate clergy from laity and laity from clergy. These are heretic practises.

Do not ordination, vestments, and the iconostasis separate clergy from laity?

It would be heretical to say you must have a congregation to say a Mass/Liturgy.  I'm not sure how anyone could say a priest saying Mass under any circumstances, given that he is properly disposed, not deceptive, and per the precepts of the Church, is a sin.
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: primuspilus on February 14, 2012, 01:52:03 PM
Could someone help me out? Intentions?

Like having a liturgy on a Saint's day or something?

PP

Having a mass specifically for the repose of a particular soul would be an example, if I am understanding the concept correctly. The mass is offered specifically on behalf of that person, specifically for his or her benefit.

Contrast the above with commemorating a soul during the liturgy and making certain supplications for its salvation, deliverance, &c.

I do not believe they are the same.
Hmmm, weird. I've never heard of it....

PP
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: Deacon Lance on February 14, 2012, 10:31:01 PM
I see a lot of different ideas getting mixed up here.  Private Masses deserve a seperate thread.  In Catholic Canon Law every priest is encouraged to say the Mass daily (aliturgical days excepted) and is seen to have the right to do so, even if there is no pastoral need,  However it is expected that he will be assited by one server.  "Where two or three are gatehred in my name..."   

Votive Masses are also a seperate thread.  On a Ferial day the celebrating priest has the right to choose the Mass Propers.  For example, he could say a Mas in honor of the Mother of God.  That is what a Mass for Chrsitian Unity would fall under.   

I would say "in all and for all" is an accurate description of what the Catholic Church teaches.  Since it is Christ who offers and is offered the fruits of the Mass are infinite and of course the entire, Church, living and departed, is commerated and benefits at every Mass/Liturgy. However, some are mentioned generally and other specifically.  Those mentioned specifically may be mentioned aloud or quitely during the dyptychs or during a litany or in the Byzantine tradition during the Proskomede. 

The faithful may also make an offering with a request for a commemoration.  Catholic Canon Law forbids a priest from accepting more than one offering per day.  The diocesan bishop sets the customary amount of offering but a priest is obviously not deny the request of those to poor to make an offering.  It is this rule that seems to have created the idea among the misinformed that a Mass benefits a single person soley because an offering was made. The rule is in place to prevent priests from getting rich by accepting offerings they have no ability or intention of fulfilling.  The priest can commemorate as many people as he chooses, but he can only accept one offering and he must commemorate those for whom the offering was made. 
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: Christopher McAvoy on February 15, 2012, 03:06:43 AM
The Chapel of the Burning Bush, Mt. Sinai, Egypt

(http://www.ask-aladdin.com/images/stcatherine3.jpg)

An excellent site for one or two monks to celebrate holy qurbana for a special intention.  ;D
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: mike on February 15, 2012, 04:38:51 PM
For example, he could say a Mas in honor of the Mother of God. 

What?
Title: Re: mass intentions?
Post by: Deacon Lance on February 15, 2012, 06:08:02 PM
For example, he could say a Mass in honor of the Mother of God. 

What?

The Collect/Opening Prayer, Secret/Prayer Over the Gifts, and Post-Communion/Prayer after Communion could be taken from the common of the Mother of God rather than those assigned for weekdays in Ordinary time.

To compare to the Byzantine rite, it would be like a priest taking the troparion and kontakion of a selected saint rather than one actually on the calendar for that day.