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Moderated Forums => Liturgy => Topic started by: Tikhon.of.Colorado on June 27, 2011, 01:52:49 AM

Title: When do readers wear cassocks?
Post by: Tikhon.of.Colorado on June 27, 2011, 01:52:49 AM
When is a reader supposed to wear his cassock to Church?  Does he wear it even to Churches that he does not regularly attend?  Is he buried in his cassock, if he dies while a reader?
Title: Re: When do readers wear cassocks?
Post by: serb1389 on June 27, 2011, 02:39:38 AM
When is a reader supposed to wear his cassock to Church?  Does he wear it even to Churches that he does not regularly attend?  Is he buried in his cassock, if he dies while a reader?

It depends on the priest, church, bishop, etc.  But normally I would say "ask before you commit to any one system".  In the more slavic churches the tradition would be to wear it wherever you go, but in greek churches I know a lot of priests who would ask you to not wear it without their blessing. 

The one reader who I know who passed away a couple of years ago WAS buried with his cassock. 
Title: Re: When do readers wear cassocks?
Post by: Noesisaa on June 27, 2011, 05:43:02 AM
When is a reader supposed to wear his cassock to Church?  Does he wear it even to Churches that he does not regularly attend?  Is he buried in his cassock, if he dies while a reader?

 ;D  :o A reader buried in his cassok?? What are you guys doing there in the US? I have never ever seen a reader in cassock in Romanian churches. Seminarians (that is high school seminarians, those studying for the priesthood in the university, so above 19, do not have a special uniform and are not called seminarians) wear their seminary uniform (that is black dress pants and black suit jacket that looks at the collar close to what roman-catholic priests wear, http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.seminararad.org/_/rsrc/1292948503007/stranile-si-corul/strana.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.seminararad.org/stranile-si-corul&usg=__C6bKJH9DcqNWZn9ATT6oKy-Zkvg=&h=400&w=300&sz=33&hl=ro&start=133&sig2=jZ42o33fR3aNCKesl69Erg&zoom=1&tbnid=6beiBCwmNH5S6M:&tbnh=141&tbnw=106&ei=Xk8ITo2kDpDsOfryjcIN&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dseminarist%2Broman%26hl%3Dro%26biw%3D1255%26bih%3D593%26gbv%3D2%26tbm%3Disch&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=953&vpy=104&dur=99&hovh=259&hovw=194&tx=97&ty=165&page=8&ndsp=19&ved=1t:429,r:17,s:133&biw=1255&bih=593), but that's it.

If you're not a seminarian, you wear street clothes. A guy who finished his seminary studies but is not a priest yet would wear street clothes....

Title: Re: When do readers wear cassocks?
Post by: SubdeaconDavid on June 27, 2011, 07:07:59 AM
In the Russian Church Abroad (ROCOR), Readers wear cassocks to church always and are entitled to wear them outside of church.  In practice this tends to be restricted to church business e.g. a parish meeting or Saturday Church School etc.  A Reader, like a subdeacon is a minor cleric.
Title: Re: When do readers wear cassocks?
Post by: 88Devin12 on June 27, 2011, 08:49:32 AM
In our parish (OCA) the reader wears his cassock in church at any time, but I'm not sure if this applies tO all the readers if more than one is at a service.
Title: Re: When do readers wear cassocks?
Post by: Chacci on June 27, 2011, 10:56:45 AM
As I Subdeacon, I was told to only wear the cassock on Church property.  However, I was given a blessing to wear the Cassock when I go to do the prison ministry as well and other Church funcitons - such as house blessing.  

I was taught, as a general rule, that the minor orders wear their cassocks when they are engaged in their ministries - readers are engaged in their ministry only during services and thus should wear it only during services and remove the cassock after the service is over.  Subdeacons are engaged in their ministry when they walk through the Church doors and do not finish until they walk out - and thus should wear the cassocks the entire time they are at Church.
Title: Re: When do readers wear cassocks?
Post by: IXOYE on June 27, 2011, 11:24:03 AM
Is it incorrect in R.O.C.O.R. to have a reader that wears only a suit and not a cassock?  I do believe he was tonsured a reader.
Title: Re: When do readers wear cassocks?
Post by: Monk Cyprian on June 27, 2011, 11:47:54 AM
Again, this depends on the traditions of the Local Church.  As has been mentioned, Churches in the greater Slavic tradition tend to allow, and in some instances even require, Readers and SubDeacons to wear the inner cassock at services and on Church business - even when they are not serving.

In the Byzantine tradition however, only the "on-duty" Reader wears a cassock, and it is the outer cassock (the one with the wide sleeves) without the inner cassock, just over his street clothes.

It would appear that in Romanian, and Ukranian Churches (at least the UOCC parishes that I've visited), the Reader does his job in his normal clothes.

That being said, I've also seen many Readers in Russian, and Russian descendant, Churches that weren't wearing cassocks either, simply because they didn't have one.  I'm pretty sure a few are not interested in getting one if they don't absolutely have to, because they're expensive!

So, it comes down to varying traditions within Orthodoxy, and/or the ability of the Reader or SubDeacon to purchase an cassock.

I'm sorry, Noesisaa, but the Romanian Church is not the measure by which all the other Churches are measured.   :)
Title: Re: When do readers wear cassocks?
Post by: username! on June 27, 2011, 02:38:46 PM
in my opinion, if you want to wear a cassock and are at least a reader, tonsured, and upwards, who cares where you wear a cassock?  It is a garment.  With so many people hungry and in pain in the world the last thing on my mind would be "eggads, jim is at the grocery after liturgy and is buying some prunes in his cassock."  I'd just say hi Jim, see ya next week at church."
Title: Re: When do readers wear cassocks?
Post by: serb1389 on June 27, 2011, 02:43:01 PM
in my opinion, if you want to wear a cassock and are at least a reader, tonsured, and upwards, who cares where you wear a cassock?  It is a garment.  With so many people hungry and in pain in the world the last thing on my mind would be "eggads, jim is at the grocery after liturgy and is buying some prunes in his cassock."  I'd just say hi Jim, see ya next week at church."

The problem though is that the cassock is a recognizable garb of a priest, & they may be mistaken for a priest.  I would caution wearing liturgical garb "whenever you feel like it" because of this fact. 
Title: Re: When do readers wear cassocks?
Post by: augustin717 on June 27, 2011, 02:52:24 PM
When is a reader supposed to wear his cassock to Church?  Does he wear it even to Churches that he does not regularly attend?  Is he buried in his cassock, if he dies while a reader?
When he's an over-zealous convert, usually.
Title: Re: When do readers wear cassocks?
Post by: orthonorm on June 27, 2011, 02:57:13 PM
When is a reader supposed to wear his cassock to Church?  Does he wear it even to Churches that he does not regularly attend?  Is he buried in his cassock, if he dies while a reader?
When he's an over-zealous convert, usually.

*ZING*
Title: Re: When do readers wear cassocks?
Post by: Tikhon.of.Colorado on June 27, 2011, 04:38:23 PM
When is a reader supposed to wear his cassock to Church?  Does he wear it even to Churches that he does not regularly attend?  Is he buried in his cassock, if he dies while a reader?
When he's an over-zealous convert, usually.

lol  ;)
Title: Re: When do readers wear cassocks?
Post by: Tikhon.of.Colorado on June 27, 2011, 04:39:42 PM
in my opinion, if you want to wear a cassock and are at least a reader, tonsured, and upwards, who cares where you wear a cassock?  It is a garment.  With so many people hungry and in pain in the world the last thing on my mind would be "eggads, jim is at the grocery after liturgy and is buying some prunes in his cassock."  I'd just say hi Jim, see ya next week at church."

The problem though is that the cassock is a recognizable garb of a priest, & they may be mistaken for a priest.  I would caution wearing liturgical garb "whenever you feel like it" because of this fact. 
But I thought that priests wore pectoral crosses, and others who wear cassocks do not?
Title: Re: When do readers wear cassocks?
Post by: Shanghaiski on June 27, 2011, 05:01:42 PM
I only wear it if I"m reading or chanting that day, but I keep it on through the service since I need a blessing to put it on and take it off and the priest is usually busy when liturgy begins. As for burials, I assume I would be buried in it.
Title: Re: When do readers wear cassocks?
Post by: Tikhon.of.Colorado on June 27, 2011, 05:04:08 PM
I only wear it if I"m reading or chanting that day, but I keep it on through the service since I need a blessing to put it on and take it off and the priest is usually busy when liturgy begins. As for burials, I assume I would be buried in it.

Interesting...I've seen readers wear them and not.  It's always different depending on the jurisdiction, I've found.  The reader at my Church says that, even if he wasn't reading (which he's usually not), he wears it anyway in case they need a reader.
Title: Re: When do readers wear cassocks?
Post by: Shanghaiski on June 27, 2011, 05:13:19 PM
in my opinion, if you want to wear a cassock and are at least a reader, tonsured, and upwards, who cares where you wear a cassock?  It is a garment.  With so many people hungry and in pain in the world the last thing on my mind would be "eggads, jim is at the grocery after liturgy and is buying some prunes in his cassock."  I'd just say hi Jim, see ya next week at church."

The problem though is that the cassock is a recognizable garb of a priest, & they may be mistaken for a priest.  I would caution wearing liturgical garb "whenever you feel like it" because of this fact. 
But I thought that priests wore pectoral crosses, and others who wear cassocks do not?

It's usually just Russians who wear pectoral crosses. Antiochian priests do not wear them unless they are archpriests or archimandrites, and then they mostly wear gold crosses, not silver.
Title: Re: When do readers wear cassocks?
Post by: serb1389 on June 27, 2011, 07:57:05 PM
in my opinion, if you want to wear a cassock and are at least a reader, tonsured, and upwards, who cares where you wear a cassock?  It is a garment.  With so many people hungry and in pain in the world the last thing on my mind would be "eggads, jim is at the grocery after liturgy and is buying some prunes in his cassock."  I'd just say hi Jim, see ya next week at church."

The problem though is that the cassock is a recognizable garb of a priest, & they may be mistaken for a priest.  I would caution wearing liturgical garb "whenever you feel like it" because of this fact. 
But I thought that priests wore pectoral crosses, and others who wear cassocks do not?

Not in the GOA or Antiochian traditions (normally).  they would wear one only if their bishop allowed it, and if they are an archimandrite or proto-presbyter/stavrophor. 
Title: Re: When do readers wear cassocks?
Post by: ilyazhito on June 27, 2011, 09:02:54 PM
in my opinion, if you want to wear a cassock and are at least a reader, tonsured, and upwards, who cares where you wear a cassock?  It is a garment.  With so many people hungry and in pain in the world the last thing on my mind would be "eggads, jim is at the grocery after liturgy and is buying some prunes in his cassock."  I'd just say hi Jim, see ya next week at church."

The problem though is that the cassock is a recognizable garb of a priest, & they may be mistaken for a priest.  I would caution wearing liturgical garb "whenever you feel like it" because of this fact. 
Only the exorasson can be confused for priest's attire. If the reader wears his eisorasson (podriasnik, inner cassock), he cannot be confused for a priest, because only major orders wear exorassa in the russian tradition. In Fr. Kyprian Kern's book Orthodox Priesthood (Pravoslavnoye Pastyrskoye Sluzhenie in Russian), he says that clerics should wear their cassock with tact, whenever possible.
Title: Re: When do readers wear cassocks?
Post by: Shanghaiski on June 28, 2011, 12:35:06 AM
in my opinion, if you want to wear a cassock and are at least a reader, tonsured, and upwards, who cares where you wear a cassock?  It is a garment.  With so many people hungry and in pain in the world the last thing on my mind would be "eggads, jim is at the grocery after liturgy and is buying some prunes in his cassock."  I'd just say hi Jim, see ya next week at church."

The problem though is that the cassock is a recognizable garb of a priest, & they may be mistaken for a priest.  I would caution wearing liturgical garb "whenever you feel like it" because of this fact. 
Only the exorasson can be confused for priest's attire. If the reader wears his eisorasson (podriasnik, inner cassock), he cannot be confused for a priest, because only major orders wear exorassa in the russian tradition. In Fr. Kyprian Kern's book Orthodox Priesthood (Pravoslavnoye Pastyrskoye Sluzhenie in Russian), he says that clerics should wear their cassock with tact, whenever possible.

That assumes a lot of the average believer. I've met Russians who cannot tell the diference between an icon of Jesus and one of St. Nicholas.
Title: Re: When do readers wear cassocks?
Post by: mike on June 28, 2011, 01:54:50 AM
in my opinion, if you want to wear a cassock and are at least a reader, tonsured, and upwards, who cares where you wear a cassock?  It is a garment.  With so many people hungry and in pain in the world the last thing on my mind would be "eggads, jim is at the grocery after liturgy and is buying some prunes in his cassock."  I'd just say hi Jim, see ya next week at church."

The problem though is that the cassock is a recognizable garb of a priest, & they may be mistaken for a priest.  I would caution wearing liturgical garb "whenever you feel like it" because of this fact. 
Only the exorasson can be confused for priest's attire. If the reader wears his eisorasson (podriasnik, inner cassock), he cannot be confused for a priest, because only major orders wear exorassa in the russian tradition.

Only Monks.
Title: Re: When do readers wear cassocks?
Post by: Tikhon.of.Colorado on June 28, 2011, 08:53:55 AM
in my opinion, if you want to wear a cassock and are at least a reader, tonsured, and upwards, who cares where you wear a cassock?  It is a garment.  With so many people hungry and in pain in the world the last thing on my mind would be "eggads, jim is at the grocery after liturgy and is buying some prunes in his cassock."  I'd just say hi Jim, see ya next week at church."

The problem though is that the cassock is a recognizable garb of a priest, & they may be mistaken for a priest.  I would caution wearing liturgical garb "whenever you feel like it" because of this fact. 
Only the exorasson can be confused for priest's attire. If the reader wears his eisorasson (podriasnik, inner cassock), he cannot be confused for a priest, because only major orders wear exorassa in the russian tradition. In Fr. Kyprian Kern's book Orthodox Priesthood (Pravoslavnoye Pastyrskoye Sluzhenie in Russian), he says that clerics should wear their cassock with tact, whenever possible.

That assumes a lot of the average believer. I've met Russians who cannot tell the diference between an icon of Jesus and one of St. Nicholas.
An honest mistake.  My priest's daughter (now 5 years old) thought an icon of one of the desert fathers was Hans Solo from star wars  ;)
Title: Re: When do readers wear cassocks?
Post by: Orthodox11 on June 28, 2011, 10:01:19 AM
in my opinion, if you want to wear a cassock and are at least a reader, tonsured, and upwards, who cares where you wear a cassock?  It is a garment.  With so many people hungry and in pain in the world the last thing on my mind would be "eggads, jim is at the grocery after liturgy and is buying some prunes in his cassock."  I'd just say hi Jim, see ya next week at church."

The problem though is that the cassock is a recognizable garb of a priest, & they may be mistaken for a priest.  I would caution wearing liturgical garb "whenever you feel like it" because of this fact. 
Only the exorasson can be confused for priest's attire. If the reader wears his eisorasson (podriasnik, inner cassock), he cannot be confused for a priest, because only major orders wear exorassa in the russian tradition. In Fr. Kyprian Kern's book Orthodox Priesthood (Pravoslavnoye Pastyrskoye Sluzhenie in Russian), he says that clerics should wear their cassock with tact, whenever possible.

In the Greek tradition, where lay choirs are less common, singers normally wear an exorasson, meaning the reverse would be true. Most Greek priest don't wear an exorasson without the appropriate headgear to go with it, and readers never wear their antiri outside of church, so you're much more likely to be mistaken for a priest if you walk around an undercassock than an exorasson.
Title: Re: When do readers wear cassocks?
Post by: Monk Cyprian on June 28, 2011, 10:52:28 AM
in my opinion, if you want to wear a cassock and are at least a reader, tonsured, and upwards, who cares where you wear a cassock?  It is a garment.  With so many people hungry and in pain in the world the last thing on my mind would be "eggads, jim is at the grocery after liturgy and is buying some prunes in his cassock."  I'd just say hi Jim, see ya next week at church."

The problem though is that the cassock is a recognizable garb of a priest, & they may be mistaken for a priest.  I would caution wearing liturgical garb "whenever you feel like it" because of this fact. 
Only the exorasson can be confused for priest's attire. If the reader wears his eisorasson (podriasnik, inner cassock), he cannot be confused for a priest, because only major orders wear exorassa in the russian tradition.

Only Monks.

"Only Monks" what?
Title: Re: When do readers wear cassocks?
Post by: mike on June 28, 2011, 02:47:36 PM
in my opinion, if you want to wear a cassock and are at least a reader, tonsured, and upwards, who cares where you wear a cassock?  It is a garment.  With so many people hungry and in pain in the world the last thing on my mind would be "eggads, jim is at the grocery after liturgy and is buying some prunes in his cassock."  I'd just say hi Jim, see ya next week at church."

The problem though is that the cassock is a recognizable garb of a priest, & they may be mistaken for a priest.  I would caution wearing liturgical garb "whenever you feel like it" because of this fact. 
Only the exorasson can be confused for priest's attire. If the reader wears his eisorasson (podriasnik, inner cassock), he cannot be confused for a priest, because only major orders wear exorassa in the russian tradition.

Only Monks.

"Only Monks" what?

...wear exorassos in Russian tradition.
Title: Re: When do readers wear cassocks?
Post by: Monk Cyprian on June 28, 2011, 03:38:23 PM
"Only Monks" what?

...wear exorassos in Russian tradition.

Bzzzzt!  Wrong, but thanks for playing.   ;D

Exorassos, otherwise known as Riassa, in the Russian tradition are worn by both Monks and Nuns above the rank of novice (ie. Riassaphormonk and up...) AND all Deacons and Priests regardless of marital/monastic status.
Title: Re: When do readers wear cassocks?
Post by: mike on June 28, 2011, 03:44:24 PM
Really?

(http://www.cerkiew.pl/uploads/pics/2011-05-14_Majowa_27.jpg)
Title: Re: When do readers wear cassocks?
Post by: Monk Cyprian on June 28, 2011, 03:58:44 PM
Really?

(http://www.cerkiew.pl/uploads/pics/2011-05-14_Majowa_27.jpg)

Yes.  They aren't required to wear them all the time, but they do wear them.

Quote
The outer cassock also called a ryasa or riassa (Russian: ряса), or exorason (Greek εξώρασον or simply ράσον) is a voluminous garment worn over the inner cassock by bishops, priests, deacons, and monastics as their regular outer wear. It is not worn by seminarians, readers or subdeacons in the Russian tradition. In the Greek tradition, however, chanters may wear it in church, usually with no inner cassock beneath but directly over secular clothing. The outer cassock should be worn by a priest celebrating a service such as Vespers where the rubrics call for him to be less than fully vested, but it is not worn by any clergy beneath the sticharion. It may be worn with the bottoms of the sleeves turned back, which are sometimes faced in a contrasting color. The Greek version tends to be somewhat lighter weight and more fully cut than the Russian. It is originally a monastic garment, and in the Russian tradition a man must be explicitly blessed by the bishop to wear it following his ordination to the diaconate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassock#Eastern_practice_.28Orthodox_and_Eastern_Catholic.29

Your conclusion to the contrary is based on a single photograph of clergy who are apparently not all Russian in the first place (as one is clearly wearing a Greek inner cassock)?  
Title: Re: When do readers wear cassocks?
Post by: mike on June 28, 2011, 04:03:41 PM
Yes.  They aren't required to wear them all the time, but they do wear them.

OK, I you understand now.
Title: Re: When do readers wear cassocks?
Post by: Altar Server on June 28, 2011, 07:55:28 PM
in my opinion, if you want to wear a cassock and are at least a reader, tonsured, and upwards, who cares where you wear a cassock?  It is a garment.  With so many people hungry and in pain in the world the last thing on my mind would be "eggads, jim is at the grocery after liturgy and is buying some prunes in his cassock."  I'd just say hi Jim, see ya next week at church."

The problem though is that the cassock is a recognizable garb of a priest, & they may be mistaken for a priest.  I would caution wearing liturgical garb "whenever you feel like it" because of this fact. 
But I thought that priests wore pectoral crosses, and others who wear cassocks do not?

Only in the slavic tradition
Title: Re: When do readers wear cassocks?
Post by: Shlomlokh on June 28, 2011, 08:04:56 PM
in my opinion, if you want to wear a cassock and are at least a reader, tonsured, and upwards, who cares where you wear a cassock?  It is a garment.  With so many people hungry and in pain in the world the last thing on my mind would be "eggads, jim is at the grocery after liturgy and is buying some prunes in his cassock."  I'd just say hi Jim, see ya next week at church."

The problem though is that the cassock is a recognizable garb of a priest, & they may be mistaken for a priest.  I would caution wearing liturgical garb "whenever you feel like it" because of this fact. 
But I thought that priests wore pectoral crosses, and others who wear cassocks do not?

Only in the slavic tradition
I've seen a few Greek priests and an Antiochian wear one, but not many.

In Christ,
Andrew
Title: Re: When do readers wear cassocks?
Post by: Tikhon.of.Colorado on June 28, 2011, 10:16:34 PM
in my opinion, if you want to wear a cassock and are at least a reader, tonsured, and upwards, who cares where you wear a cassock?  It is a garment.  With so many people hungry and in pain in the world the last thing on my mind would be "eggads, jim is at the grocery after liturgy and is buying some prunes in his cassock."  I'd just say hi Jim, see ya next week at church."

The problem though is that the cassock is a recognizable garb of a priest, & they may be mistaken for a priest.  I would caution wearing liturgical garb "whenever you feel like it" because of this fact. 
But I thought that priests wore pectoral crosses, and others who wear cassocks do not?

Only in the slavic tradition
I've seen a few Greek priests and an Antiochian wear one, but not many.

In Christ,
Andrew
I've recently found out that this is only in the case of am archpriest.  It's like when Slavic priests wear gold crosses. Not all, but some do.
Title: Re: When do readers wear cassocks?
Post by: Alucard on July 06, 2011, 08:16:49 PM
The problem though is that the cassock is a recognizable garb of a priest, & they may be mistaken for a priest.  I would caution wearing liturgical garb "whenever you feel like it" because of this fact. 

A cassock is not liturgical garb. It is clerical garb. Liturgical garb would be one's vestments (in the reader's case, a sticharion) which one would not wear outside the context of a church service.

I only wear it if I"m reading or chanting that day, but I keep it on through the service since I need a blessing to put it on and take it off and the priest is usually busy when liturgy begins. As for burials, I assume I would be buried in it.

Wait, what? I'm a reader in ROCOR and I don't get a blessing to put my cassock on - like I said before, it's my clerical clothing, not my liturgical clothing, so whenever I go to church I wear it to and from there without the need for a blessing from the priest to put it on. However, I do need to receive a blessing with a sticharion at some point in the service before I am able to vest for either reading the epistle or in order to commune. As far as I'm aware as well, tonsured clergy, including readers, are buried fully vested, so we would be buried in both our cassocks and in a sticharion from what I've been told.