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Moderated Forums => Liturgy => Western Rite Discussion => Topic started by: henrikhankhagnell on May 23, 2011, 06:45:29 PM

Title: difference
Post by: henrikhankhagnell on May 23, 2011, 06:45:29 PM
how does your litrugy differ from the roman catholic liturgy?
Title: Re: difference
Post by: mike on May 23, 2011, 06:50:00 PM
No filioque or schismatics Bishops mentioned, both Blood and Body for the laymen, leavened bread - these are basic.
Title: Re: difference
Post by: henrikhankhagnell on May 23, 2011, 06:53:04 PM
No filioque or schismatics Bishops mentioned, both Blood and Body for the laymen, leavened bread - these are basic.
but do you have tridentine mass or...? ???
Title: Re: difference
Post by: Sleeper on May 23, 2011, 06:54:53 PM
It depends, as well, on which liturgy you have in mind. Most Western Rite parishes, regardless of jurisdiction, seem to employ the use of more Anglo-Celtic liturgies, such as the Liturgy of St. Tikhon, The English Liturgy, The Sarum Liturgy, The Lorrha-Stowe Liturgy, etc.

The Liturgy of St. Gregory is essentially the pre-1950s Roman Catholic usage, corrected as Michal has already noted.
Title: Re: difference
Post by: Sleeper on May 23, 2011, 06:55:46 PM
No filioque or schismatics Bishops mentioned, both Blood and Body for the laymen, leavened bread - these are basic.
but do you have tridentine mass or...? ???

Yes, the Rite of St. Gregory is pretty much the Tridentine mass.
Title: Re: difference
Post by: Robb on May 26, 2011, 10:31:42 PM
No filioque or schismatics Bishops mentioned, both Blood and Body for the laymen, leavened bread - these are basic.

Are you a member of the Polish Byzantine Orthodox Church or the Western rite of that Church (Just curious)?  I have heard that a Western rite Polish Church existed, but thought that it was wiped out during World War II? 
Title: Re: difference
Post by: Fr.Aidan on May 27, 2011, 12:22:31 AM
Christ is risen.

When I celebrate a Western Rite Mass, it is somewhat different from the Tridentine form.

All of the elements of the Roman rite from the Orthodox period, are preserved within it. Thus, for example, we have the Sunday blessing of water, the singing of the Sequences, more processions, the kiss of peace at the beginning of the service, the presence of petitions between "Kyrie eleison" making a full Litany, absence of any elevation of the Gifts at the words considered consecratory in Roman-catholic theology, communion in both kinds, the Mass being sandwiched between two hours of the divine office, the blessing of things with three fingers instead of all fingers outstretched, older forms of the vestments, and so forth.

It is still a form of the Roman rite, just a more normative form of the Roman rite, as kept prior to the Protestant Reformation.

It contains the soft or mystical prayers which used to be done, but were later eliminated from Western rite practice or replaced by yet other prayers. There are three entrances in the Liturgy or Mass.

It is a beautiful service which is not only beloved by Western rite faithful, but more easy to accept on the part of Eastern rite faithful. Not from being Easternised, for it is the least Easternised of any Western rite form currently in use, but because it actually stretches back farther in practice to when the West hadn't yet drifted so far from the original Christian heritage of both East and West.
Title: Re: difference
Post by: mike on May 27, 2011, 12:20:50 PM
Are you a member of the Polish Byzantine Orthodox Church or the Western rite of that Church (Just curious)?  I have heard that a Western rite Polish Church existed, but thought that it was wiped out during World War II? 

They were. Currently there are no Poish Western Rite Parishes.
Title: Re: difference
Post by: Alpo on May 27, 2011, 03:19:03 PM
Are you a member of the Polish Byzantine Orthodox Church or the Western rite of that Church (Just curious)?  I have heard that a Western rite Polish Church existed, but thought that it was wiped out during World War II? 

They were. Currently there are no Poish Western Rite Parishes.


Has there been any interest to revive WRO in Poland?
Title: Re: difference
Post by: Michał on May 27, 2011, 03:44:14 PM
. . . The Lorrha-Stowe Liturgy . . .

AFAIK, this one is not currently used by any canonical Orthodox community.

Title: Re: difference
Post by: Michał on May 27, 2011, 03:48:20 PM
Has there been any interest to revive WRO in Poland?

Nope.
Title: Re: difference
Post by: Fr.Aidan on May 27, 2011, 04:38:27 PM
If there were a man interested in reviving the Polish Church's Western rite dimension, surely Western rite services, at least occasional, could be arranged, study groups organised, and preparations made for a priest to be assigned one day. If all this is done with a proper canonical blessing, much can be accomplished, and the Roman-catholics of Poland can be summoned back to the Catholic Church of Christ from where they are now.
Title: Re: difference
Post by: Michał on May 27, 2011, 04:54:31 PM
If there were a man interested in reviving the Polish Church's Western rite dimension, surely Western rite services, at least occasional, could be arranged, study groups organised, and preparations made for a priest to be assigned one day. If all this is done with a proper canonical blessing, much can be accomplished, and the Roman-catholics of Poland can be summoned back to the Catholic Church of Christ from where they are now.

I'm pretty sure there will be no revival of Western rite in the Polish Orthodox Church, unless a group of Old Catholics, Lutherans, or Methodists applies for joining as a WRO community (and this is very unlikely). But, interestingly enough, there are two MP priests in Germany (one of them residing very close to the Polish boarder) who occasionally serve according to Western rite. Both of them speak some Polish, so I'm guessing they might actually have Polish roots.
Title: Re: difference
Post by: henrikhankhagnell on May 27, 2011, 04:55:07 PM
Christ is risen.

When I celebrate a Western Rite Mass, it is somewhat different from the Tridentine form.

All of the elements of the Roman rite from the Orthodox period, are preserved within it. Thus, for example, we have the Sunday blessing of water, the singing of the Sequences, more processions, the kiss of peace at the beginning of the service, the presence of petitions between "Kyrie eleison" making a full Litany, absence of any elevation of the Gifts at the words considered consecratory in Roman-catholic theology, communion in both kinds, the Mass being sandwiched between two hours of the divine office, the blessing of things with three fingers instead of all fingers outstretched, older forms of the vestments, and so forth.

It is still a form of the Roman rite, just a more normative form of the Roman rite, as kept prior to the Protestant Reformation.

It contains the soft or mystical prayers which used to be done, but were later eliminated from Western rite practice or replaced by yet other prayers. There are three entrances in the Liturgy or Mass.

It is a beautiful service which is not only beloved by Western rite faithful, but more easy to accept on the part of Eastern rite faithful. Not from being Easternised, for it is the least Easternised of any Western rite form currently in use, but because it actually stretches back farther in practice to when the West hadn't yet drifted so far from the original Christian heritage of both East and West.

Latin?
Title: Re: difference
Post by: Fr.Aidan on May 27, 2011, 05:05:40 PM
The Latin language is permitted; so are English and other languages. Church Slavonic is a tried-and-true, historical language for the Western Rite. I've only known extensive use of English and "sideline" or minor use of Latin. There is quite a demand for the old Roman rite materials to be published in Latin as well as English. Also the Gregorian chants work beautifully in Latin, though also quite beautifully in English.
Title: Re: difference
Post by: henrikhankhagnell on May 27, 2011, 05:52:44 PM
What does "the Mass being sandwiched between two hours of the divine office," mean?
Title: Re: difference
Post by: Michał on May 27, 2011, 06:03:22 PM
What does "the Mass being sandwiched between two hours of the divine office," mean?

In Fr. Aidan's practice (cf.: http://sarisburium.blogspot.com/2009/10/october-2009-sarum-services-at.html & http://sarisburium.blogspot.com/2010/06/june-3-sarum-liturgy-at-florida.html) it means that the Liturgy is preceded by Terce and Sext, and followed by None.