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Moderated Forums => Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion => Orthodox-Catholic Discussion => Topic started by: Alcuin on May 18, 2011, 03:57:35 PM

Title: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Alcuin on May 18, 2011, 03:57:35 PM
I am a Catholic with no plans to convert to Orthodoxy, but I am interested to attend a Orthodox Divine Liturgy. I of course would not take the eucharist or anything improper like that, but I was curious how Eastern Orthodox Christians felt about this? Is it seen as rude or intrusive? I will ask the priest of the parish in question as well, of course.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Melodist on May 18, 2011, 04:10:01 PM
I remember once when some RC seminarians came with one of their priests to see our liturgy. I can remember another instance when an epsicopalian priest came to see someone speak. Our priest also teaches a class on Orthodoxy at Xavier and requires his students to attend a liturgy and write a paper on it.

Just don't go up for communion and do recite the creed as it is in the service book and you'll be fine.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: bogdan on May 18, 2011, 04:11:58 PM
Welcome, I say. Several Protestants attend my parish for vespers and they have no plans to convert. Nobody has a problem with it, that I'm aware of.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: mike on May 18, 2011, 04:13:53 PM
I know that even people who don't feel like converting can be encouraged by the beauty of the service to join the Orthodox Church but I personally don't like the idea of watching the Orthodox services as performances in the theatre.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Alcuin on May 18, 2011, 04:18:17 PM
It's not that I want to watch it as a performance in the theater - I think it's a valid celebration of the eucharist by a priest in valid apostolic succession, and that attending it would be a spiritually enriching experience. I don't think it's fair to bifurcate between "Want to become Orthodox" and "Are attending the liturgy as a theatrical novelty". On the other hand, I do understand why Orthodox Christians might consider it intrusive, and I do not want to offend the parishioners.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: J Michael on May 18, 2011, 05:20:31 PM
It's not that I want to watch it as a performance in the theater - I think it's a valid celebration of the eucharist by a priest in valid apostolic succession, and that attending it would be a spiritually enriching experience. I don't think it's fair to bifurcate between "Want to become Orthodox" and "Are attending the liturgy as a theatrical novelty". On the other hand, I do understand why Orthodox Christians might consider it intrusive, and I do not want to offend the parishioners.

I can't imagine why *anyone* would be offended by a respectful visitor!  Nor would you be intrusive.  "Welcome!!", I would say.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Asteriktos on May 18, 2011, 05:23:19 PM
If a congregation was unwelcoming of someone, even if just a visitor with no intention of converting, then IMO they would be unworthy of the Lord they worship.  :angel:
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: mike on May 18, 2011, 05:24:10 PM
It's not that I want to watch it as a performance in the theater - I think it's a valid celebration of the eucharist by a priest in valid apostolic succession, and that attending it would be a spiritually enriching experience. I don't think it's fair to bifurcate between "Want to become Orthodox" and "Are attending the liturgy as a theatrical novelty". On the other hand, I do understand why Orthodox Christians might consider it intrusive, and I do not want to offend the parishioners.

I don't think you'd be intrusive but according to the Orthodox Church there is no third option. There are no 'valid Eucharists' outside the Church.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Maria on May 18, 2011, 05:25:07 PM
It's not that I want to watch it as a performance in the theater - I think it's a valid celebration of the eucharist by a priest in valid apostolic succession, and that attending it would be a spiritually enriching experience. I don't think it's fair to bifurcate between "Want to become Orthodox" and "Are attending the liturgy as a theatrical novelty". On the other hand, I do understand why Orthodox Christians might consider it intrusive, and I do not want to offend the parishioners.

Welcome.

I was once in your shoes.

I came, I visited, and I stayed. I was surprised by the Holy Spirit.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Punch on May 18, 2011, 05:46:14 PM
If a congregation was unwelcoming of someone, even if just a visitor with no intention of converting, then IMO they would be unworthy of the Lord they worship.  :angel:

Agreed. 
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: JimCBrooklyn on May 18, 2011, 05:47:26 PM
It's not that I want to watch it as a performance in the theater - I think it's a valid celebration of the eucharist by a priest in valid apostolic succession, and that attending it would be a spiritually enriching experience. I don't think it's fair to bifurcate between "Want to become Orthodox" and "Are attending the liturgy as a theatrical novelty". On the other hand, I do understand why Orthodox Christians might consider it intrusive, and I do not want to offend the parishioners.

Welcome.

I was once in your shoes.

I came, I visited, and I stayed. I was surprised by the Holy Spirit.
Ditto.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: podkarpatska on May 18, 2011, 06:25:26 PM
Welcome! Welcome! Welcome! of course!
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Papist on May 18, 2011, 06:34:10 PM
I have visited an Eastern Orthodox parish. I let the Priest know that I was a Catholic and he had no problem with me being there. He even blessed me after Liturgy.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: biro on May 18, 2011, 07:07:44 PM
In our time, there are churches which have filmed all or part of the liturgy, and this may also be of some assistance.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: jnorm888 on May 18, 2011, 07:16:02 PM
I am a Catholic with no plans to convert to Orthodoxy, but I am interested to attend a Orthodox Divine Liturgy. I of course would not take the eucharist or anything improper like that, but I was curious how Eastern Orthodox Christians felt about this? Is it seen as rude or intrusive? I will ask the priest of the parish in question as well, of course.

It happens all the time where I live. It's pretty common actually.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: JamesRottnek on May 18, 2011, 07:23:02 PM
As long as you don't start shouting "Long Live the POPE!" in the middle of the distribution of the Eucharist, I don't think anyone will mind - no one will probably even notice that you're there, unless it's a small parish.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: biro on May 18, 2011, 07:29:58 PM
As long as you don't start shouting "Long Live the POPE!" ...

What if it was St. Clement's Day, and you just got confused?  ;) :D (Kidding.)
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Maria on May 18, 2011, 07:47:18 PM
As long as you don't start shouting "Long Live the POPE!" in the middle of the distribution of the Eucharist, I don't think anyone will mind - no one will probably even notice that you're there, unless it's a small parish.

It does sometimes happen that a Catholic or Anglican visitor will insert the filioque into the Creed especially if the congregation takes a breath during that time.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Wyatt on May 18, 2011, 07:51:31 PM
I have visited an Eastern Orthodox parish. I let the Priest know that I was a Catholic and he had no problem with me being there. He even blessed me after Liturgy.
That's very cool. There is a Greek Orthodox Church not too terribly far from where I'm at that I would not mind visiting sometime. I would prefer to attend a Byzantine Catholic parish so that I could experience the Eastern Divine Liturgy while also being able to commune. However, I usually go to Saturday evening Mass so I could go to Mass Saturday night as usual (and receive the Eucharist) and then visit the Greek Orthodox parish Sunday morning I suppose.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: sainthieu on May 18, 2011, 07:53:57 PM
It's wonderful. I have Roman Catholic guests all the time.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 18, 2011, 08:56:46 PM
I don't think it should be a problem.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 18, 2011, 09:41:36 PM
It's not that I want to watch it as a performance in the theater - I think it's a valid celebration of the eucharist by a priest in valid apostolic succession, and that attending it would be a spiritually enriching experience. I don't think it's fair to bifurcate between "Want to become Orthodox" and "Are attending the liturgy as a theatrical novelty". On the other hand, I do understand why Orthodox Christians might consider it intrusive, and I do not want to offend the parishioners.

Welcome.

I was once in your shoes.

I came, I visited, and I stayed. I was surprised by the Holy Spirit.

 :) :) :)

It is a risk...eh, Maria...

 :) :) :)
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Paisius on May 18, 2011, 10:44:49 PM
Of course it's not a problem. We have Sunday school groups from non-Orthodox churches visit our parish all the time including one group that makes it an annual event.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Maria on May 18, 2011, 11:34:26 PM
It's not that I want to watch it as a performance in the theater - I think it's a valid celebration of the eucharist by a priest in valid apostolic succession, and that attending it would be a spiritually enriching experience. I don't think it's fair to bifurcate between "Want to become Orthodox" and "Are attending the liturgy as a theatrical novelty". On the other hand, I do understand why Orthodox Christians might consider it intrusive, and I do not want to offend the parishioners.

Welcome.

I was once in your shoes.

I came, I visited, and I stayed. I was surprised by the Holy Spirit.

 :) :) :)

It is a risk...eh, Maria...

 :) :) :)

Yes, God had a big surprise in store for me.
It was like being in Marine boot camp for which I was totally unprepared.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Basil 320 on May 19, 2011, 12:35:13 AM
No problem, I know my parish would welcome you and any visitor.  My sister-in-law is Roman Catholic, she and my brother rotate which church they will go to on Sundays.  My parish priest is aware of their situation and treats her like a parishioner.  This situation is not uncommon in pluralistic America.  Most Orthodox Churches I've been to are as welcoming to non-Orthodox as mine from what I've noticed.  Frequently, their bulletins or some notice will welcome non-Orthodox visitors, only admonishing them, as you recognize, that Holy Communion is reserved for the believing Orthodox Christians, who do not have a canonical impediment.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: JimCBrooklyn on May 19, 2011, 02:45:21 AM
It's not that I want to watch it as a performance in the theater - I think it's a valid celebration of the eucharist by a priest in valid apostolic succession, and that attending it would be a spiritually enriching experience. I don't think it's fair to bifurcate between "Want to become Orthodox" and "Are attending the liturgy as a theatrical novelty". On the other hand, I do understand why Orthodox Christians might consider it intrusive, and I do not want to offend the parishioners.

Welcome.

I was once in your shoes.

I came, I visited, and I stayed. I was surprised by the Holy Spirit.

 :) :) :)

It is a risk...eh, Maria...

 :) :) :)

Yes, God had a big surprise in store for me.
It was like being in Marine boot camp for which I was totally unprepared.

Good analogy. I really felt the same way.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: WetCatechumen on May 19, 2011, 05:31:25 AM
I remember once when some RC seminarians came with one of their priests to see our liturgy. I can remember another instance when an epsicopalian priest came to see someone speak. Our priest also teaches a class on Orthodoxy at Xavier and requires his students to attend a liturgy and write a paper on it.

Just don't go up for communion and do recite the creed as it is in the service book and you'll be fine.
I always say "Filioque" under my breath to be impertinent.*

Admittedly I don't do this at my Ruthenian Church so I guess I'm just trying to give you guys a hard time.

* I don't say it when it's recited in Greek because the Holy Spirit does not ἐκπορευόμενον from the Son. Yes, we've tried explaining this to you a million times and you'll never accept that we all actually believe the same thing. We get it.

But yes it would be rude to actually say "AND THE SON!" during the creed, so I don't.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Shlomlokh on May 19, 2011, 07:52:01 AM
All types of folks visit our church from time to time and Fr. is welcoming to them all (as are the rest of us). We have a RC priest that visits from time to time with his wife. He was coming regularly for a while (Saturdays and Sundays).

In Christ,
Andrew
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: ialmisry on May 19, 2011, 08:38:00 AM
Christus resurrexit!
I am a Catholic with no plans to convert to Orthodoxy, but I am interested to attend a Orthodox Divine Liturgy. I of course would not take the eucharist or anything improper like that, but I was curious how Eastern Orthodox Christians felt about this? Is it seen as rude or intrusive? I will ask the priest of the parish in question as well, of course.
My Church is full of Catholics, it being the Catholic Church.

As for those pledged to the Vatican, as long as they do not attempt to take communion, I have no problem with it (and I don't see any problem with them taking antidoron or holy water either).
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: ialmisry on May 19, 2011, 08:41:56 AM
Christus resurrexit!
I remember once when some RC seminarians came with one of their priests to see our liturgy. I can remember another instance when an epsicopalian priest came to see someone speak. Our priest also teaches a class on Orthodoxy at Xavier and requires his students to attend a liturgy and write a paper on it.

Just don't go up for communion and do recite the creed as it is in the service book and you'll be fine.
I always say "Filioque" under my breath to be impertinent.*

Admittedly I don't do this at my Ruthenian Church so I guess I'm just trying to give you guys a hard time.
.
It's your soul.

* I don't say it when it's recited in Greek because the Holy Spirit does not ἐκπορευόμενον from the Son. Yes, we've tried explaining this to you a million times and you'll never accept that we all actually believe the same thing. We get it.
Evidently not: you believe He proceeds from the Essence of the Godhead, and we believe as Christ taught, that He proceeds from the Person of the Father.

But yes it would be rude to actually say "AND THE SON!" during the creed, so I don't.
I would take it then that you don't try to commune.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: ialmisry on May 19, 2011, 08:46:16 AM
As long as you don't start shouting "Long Live the POPE!" ...

What if it was St. Clement's Day, and you just got confused?  ;) :D (Kidding.)
Or a Presanctified Liturgy.
Long live the Pope!
(http://www.greekorthodox-alexandria.org/templates/greekorthodox/images/patriarxis.gif)
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Αριστοκλής on May 19, 2011, 10:17:01 AM
"Come and see."
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Peter J on May 19, 2011, 11:02:35 AM
Christus resurrexit!
I am a Catholic with no plans to convert to Orthodoxy, but I am interested to attend a Orthodox Divine Liturgy. I of course would not take the eucharist or anything improper like that, but I was curious how Eastern Orthodox Christians felt about this? Is it seen as rude or intrusive? I will ask the priest of the parish in question as well, of course.
My Church is full of Catholics, it being the Catholic Church.

As for those pledged to the Vatican, as long as they do not attempt to take communion, I have no problem with it (and I don't see any problem with them taking antidoron or holy water either).

I was thinking of bringing up antidoron.

I've attended a handful of Orthodox liturgies over the years, and (as far as I can recall) I always took antidoron afterward.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Peter J on May 19, 2011, 11:15:04 AM
I have visited an Eastern Orthodox parish. I let the Priest know that I was a Catholic and he had no problem with me being there. He even blessed me after Liturgy.
That's very cool. There is a Greek Orthodox Church not too terribly far from where I'm at that I would not mind visiting sometime. I would prefer to attend a Byzantine Catholic parish so that I could experience the Eastern Divine Liturgy while also being able to commune. However, I usually go to Saturday evening Mass so I could go to Mass Saturday night as usual (and receive the Eucharist) and then visit the Greek Orthodox parish Sunday morning I suppose.

I'd just like to tack on to that, even if one isn't receiving communion on a particular weekend, it's still necessary to attended a Catholic liturgy so as to fulfill the Sunday Obligation.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Peter J on May 19, 2011, 11:31:00 AM
I remember once when some RC seminarians came with one of their priests to see our liturgy. I can remember another instance when an epsicopalian priest came to see someone speak. Our priest also teaches a class on Orthodoxy at Xavier and requires his students to attend a liturgy and write a paper on it.

Just don't go up for communion and do recite the creed as it is in the service book and you'll be fine.
I always say "Filioque" under my breath to be impertinent.*

Admittedly I don't do this at my Ruthenian Church so I guess I'm just trying to give you guys a hard time.

* I don't say it when it's recited in Greek because the Holy Spirit does not ἐκπορευόμενον from the Son. Yes, we've tried explaining this to you a million times and you'll never accept that we all actually believe the same thing. We get it.

But yes it would be rude to actually say "AND THE SON!" during the creed, so I don't.

Are you a neo-conservative?
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Wyatt on May 19, 2011, 12:35:57 PM
I have visited an Eastern Orthodox parish. I let the Priest know that I was a Catholic and he had no problem with me being there. He even blessed me after Liturgy.
That's very cool. There is a Greek Orthodox Church not too terribly far from where I'm at that I would not mind visiting sometime. I would prefer to attend a Byzantine Catholic parish so that I could experience the Eastern Divine Liturgy while also being able to commune. However, I usually go to Saturday evening Mass so I could go to Mass Saturday night as usual (and receive the Eucharist) and then visit the Greek Orthodox parish Sunday morning I suppose.

I'd just like to tack on to that, even if one isn't receiving communion on a particular weekend, it's still necessary to attended a Catholic liturgy so as to fulfill the Sunday Obligation.
Oh yeah, true. The only time that an Eastern Orthodox liturgy fulfills the Sunday obligation is if there are no Catholic parishes around, right?
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: mike on May 19, 2011, 12:55:01 PM
AFAIK the Liturgy in the Orthodox Church does not fulfill the Catholic Sunday obligation. If there is not a RC Church nearby the obligation can't be fulfilled/
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Maria on May 19, 2011, 01:06:02 PM
I have visited an Eastern Orthodox parish. I let the Priest know that I was a Catholic and he had no problem with me being there. He even blessed me after Liturgy.
That's very cool. There is a Greek Orthodox Church not too terribly far from where I'm at that I would not mind visiting sometime. I would prefer to attend a Byzantine Catholic parish so that I could experience the Eastern Divine Liturgy while also being able to commune. However, I usually go to Saturday evening Mass so I could go to Mass Saturday night as usual (and receive the Eucharist) and then visit the Greek Orthodox parish Sunday morning I suppose.

I'd just like to tack on to that, even if one isn't receiving communion on a particular weekend, it's still necessary to attended a Catholic liturgy so as to fulfill the Sunday Obligation.
Oh yeah, true. The only time that an Eastern Orthodox liturgy fulfills the Sunday obligation is if there are no Catholic parishes around, right?

When I was attending the Melkite Eastern Catholic Church, I was told by my priest that if there were no Catholic Church in the area where one was living or traveling, that one could attend Saturday All-night vigil or Sunday Divine Liturgy at an Orthodox Church and fulfill the Sunday obligation. Of course, a Catholic cannot receive Holy Communion in the Orthodox Church.

He also mentioned that one should always call or email the priest beforehand out of courtesy and respect.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Tony on May 19, 2011, 01:20:30 PM
I believe that if there is no Catholic parish around, you'd be dispensed of the obligation. You wouldn't be mandated to attend an Orthodox Divine Liturgy.

I have visited an Eastern Orthodox parish. I let the Priest know that I was a Catholic and he had no problem with me being there. He even blessed me after Liturgy.
That's very cool. There is a Greek Orthodox Church not too terribly far from where I'm at that I would not mind visiting sometime. I would prefer to attend a Byzantine Catholic parish so that I could experience the Eastern Divine Liturgy while also being able to commune. However, I usually go to Saturday evening Mass so I could go to Mass Saturday night as usual (and receive the Eucharist) and then visit the Greek Orthodox parish Sunday morning I suppose.

I'd just like to tack on to that, even if one isn't receiving communion on a particular weekend, it's still necessary to attended a Catholic liturgy so as to fulfill the Sunday Obligation.
Oh yeah, true. The only time that an Eastern Orthodox liturgy fulfills the Sunday obligation is if there are no Catholic parishes around, right?
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Philonella on May 19, 2011, 01:39:15 PM
We have a RC priest that visits from time to time with his wife.

With his wife? Am I missing something here?
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Schultz on May 19, 2011, 01:42:19 PM
We have a RC priest that visits from time to time with his wife.

With his wife? Am I missing something here?


Probably a Lutheran or Anglican convert minister who was married.  The RCC allows for such men to convert and be ordained on a case-by-case basis.  Fr. Dwight Longenecker, relatively famous in the RC blogosphere, is one such priest.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Peter J on May 19, 2011, 01:46:15 PM
AFAIK the Liturgy in the Orthodox Church does not fulfill the Catholic Sunday obligation. If there is not a RC Church nearby the obligation can't be fulfilled/

That's my understanding.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: WetCatechumen on May 19, 2011, 09:32:28 PM
Christus resurrexit!
I remember once when some RC seminarians came with one of their priests to see our liturgy. I can remember another instance when an epsicopalian priest came to see someone speak. Our priest also teaches a class on Orthodoxy at Xavier and requires his students to attend a liturgy and write a paper on it.

Just don't go up for communion and do recite the creed as it is in the service book and you'll be fine.
I always say "Filioque" under my breath to be impertinent.*

Admittedly I don't do this at my Ruthenian Church so I guess I'm just trying to give you guys a hard time.
.
It's your soul.

* I don't say it when it's recited in Greek because the Holy Spirit does not ἐκπορευόμενον from the Son. Yes, we've tried explaining this to you a million times and you'll never accept that we all actually believe the same thing. We get it.
Evidently not: you believe He proceeds from the Essence of the Godhead, and we believe as Christ taught, that He proceeds from the Person of the Father.

But yes it would be rude to actually say "AND THE SON!" during the creed, so I don't.
I would take it then that you don't try to commune.

I'm not going to answer that question just to annoy you. But I will say the last time I went to Divine Liturgy I served at the altar with an Orthodox gentleman (not canonically Catholic) who communed.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: stashko on May 19, 2011, 10:25:53 PM
The Late Serbian Bishop Dionicija Had his Friend a Roman Catholic Cardinal inside the Altar ,when he was officiating at the  Bishops highl Divine Liturgy ,It would seem Some Orthodox be they religious or Lay Don't seem to mind......I mind, about the Latin Clergy attending and being inside the altar area,But not for the Lay Catholics it's fine if they attend the services... :police:
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: akimori makoto on May 19, 2011, 10:35:58 PM
So heretics are allowed behind the iconostasis but not pious Orthodox women? Am I understanding this correctly??
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: stashko on May 19, 2011, 10:40:27 PM
So heretics are allowed behind the iconostasis but not pious Orthodox women? Am I understanding this correctly??

He was considers a schismatic with bishop Irinej ,when they split the Orthodox Serbian Church awhile back from the patriarchal Church in Belgrade...... :police: I was a Kid then Had No Say about it.... ;D After 10 or more year court battle with the mother church to reclaim Churches and Monasteries in the u.s. including St.Sava Monastery ,they Lost and were thrown out, so that's when Gracanica Monastery Land was Purchased and they Build the seminary and church ....... :police: Also it was the Late Bishop Irinej that congratulated Patriarch Pavle on his election ,then the healing and unification started.... :police:
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Peter J on May 19, 2011, 10:54:31 PM
So heretics are allowed behind the iconostasis but not pious Orthodox women? Am I understanding this correctly??

Interesting question.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: stashko on May 19, 2011, 11:13:41 PM
So heretics are allowed behind the iconostasis but not pious Orthodox women? Am I understanding this correctly??


There use to be a Matushka a russian widow of a serbian priest that was made a nun...She would waik any time into the altar..Fr.Sava would be so upset when he officiated ,but she would just ignore him...... :police:
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Maria on May 19, 2011, 11:18:19 PM
In an Antiochian parish near where I live, an older celibate woman who has never been married and who is a virgin, is allowed to be the church sacristan and clean the altar.

Isn't it true that in female monasteries, the virgin nuns are allowed to clean the altar?
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Basil 320 on May 20, 2011, 04:02:13 AM
Roman Catholics have not been declared to be "heretics" by a pan-Orthodox Synod, while they have added innovations and have deviated from the doctrine of the Ecumenical Synods (the additions to the Symbol of Faith), they've not been officially deemed to be in heresy.  They've been so referred to by learned Orthodox clergy and saints, but not by the Orthodox Church officially.  It's been said that they do not share the fullness of the Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: JamesRottnek on May 20, 2011, 04:18:50 AM
If they believe things which are in contradiction to the truths professed by the consensus of the Fathers, doesn't that mean that they believe heresy?  If they believe heresy, does that not by definition make them heretics?  Keep in mind that they have changed the Creed, and consequently teach something different from the Orthodox Church
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Iconodule on May 20, 2011, 08:19:18 AM
Roman Catholics have not been declared to be "heretics" by a pan-Orthodox Synod

I believe the Pan-Orthodox synod of Constantinople, 1484, explicitly rejected filioque as a heresy.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: mike on May 20, 2011, 10:56:38 AM
So heretics are allowed behind the iconostasis but not pious Orthodox women? Am I understanding this correctly??

Unfortunately, you are.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Shanghaiski on May 20, 2011, 11:05:37 AM
Roman Catholics have not been declared to be "heretics" by a pan-Orthodox Synod, while they have added innovations and have deviated from the doctrine of the Ecumenical Synods (the additions to the Symbol of Faith), they've not been officially deemed to be in heresy.  They've been so referred to by learned Orthodox clergy and saints, but not by the Orthodox Church officially.  It's been said that they do not share the fullness of the Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

St. Mark of Ephesus called the heretics. Anyway, a pan-Orthodox synod is not necessary. Arius was a heretic, and declared so, before any synod, especially pan-Orthodox synod, met.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Shanghaiski on May 20, 2011, 11:10:36 AM
So heretics are allowed behind the iconostasis but not pious Orthodox women? Am I understanding this correctly??

Neither are supposed to be there, actually. Traditionally, non-Orthodox are not even supposed to go into the nave, at least when there is a service going on. And the only Orthodox who are supposed to be there are ones with business there--clergy, sacristans, those with blessings to be there for some purpose. Women with a blessing to do something there can be there, but the altar is not supposed to be a divine tourist destination.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Basil 320 on May 20, 2011, 01:32:46 PM
The subject of ecumenical relations is one of the agreed-to topics to be addressed by the long planned Holy and Great Synod (Council) of the Orthodox Church. The pre-conciliar work on this topic hasn't yet been addressed.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Maria on May 20, 2011, 02:52:36 PM
The subject of ecumenical relations is one of the agreed-to topics to be addressed by the long planned Holy and Great Synod (Council) of the Orthodox Church. The pre-conciliar work on this topic hasn't yet been addressed.

I pray that this council does not turn into another Vatican II.

But now we are way off topic.

When I visited my first Eastern Catholic Parish, and then went and visited an Orthodox Church, I felt right at home. In fact, the people and even the Orthodox Bishop in that parish thought that I was Orthodox.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Peter J on May 20, 2011, 03:01:56 PM
The subject of ecumenical relations is one of the agreed-to topics to be addressed by the long planned Holy and Great Synod (Council) of the Orthodox Church. The pre-conciliar work on this topic hasn't yet been addressed.

I pray that this council does not turn into another Vatican II.

Do you see the current state of Orthodoxy as comparable to Catholicism as it was on the eve of Vatican II?
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Maria on May 20, 2011, 03:05:04 PM
The subject of ecumenical relations is one of the agreed-to topics to be addressed by the long planned Holy and Great Synod (Council) of the Orthodox Church. The pre-conciliar work on this topic hasn't yet been addressed.

I pray that this council does not turn into another Vatican II.

Do you see the current state of Orthodoxy as comparable to Catholicism as it was on the eve of Vatican II?

No, not exactly. It is not a liturgical renewal per se, but a push for the reunion of all the Church, which is what Vatican II was all about too.

I have spoken with quite a few Orthodox Priests who would like to see the Catholic and Orthodox Churches reunited. Already with the latinizations of the Eastern Catholic Churches removed, our Church services look so very similar. Except for the reference to the Pope at the Canon, one could not really tell that one was in an Antiochian or Melkite parish.

Bishop Basil once stated that there are those who look, smell, and sound like the Orthodox but who are not. He was referring to the Melkites and other Eastern Catholics.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: WetCatechumen on May 20, 2011, 04:50:32 PM
I remember once when some RC seminarians came with one of their priests to see our liturgy. I can remember another instance when an epsicopalian priest came to see someone speak. Our priest also teaches a class on Orthodoxy at Xavier and requires his students to attend a liturgy and write a paper on it.

Just don't go up for communion and do recite the creed as it is in the service book and you'll be fine.
I always say "Filioque" under my breath to be impertinent.*

Admittedly I don't do this at my Ruthenian Church so I guess I'm just trying to give you guys a hard time.

* I don't say it when it's recited in Greek because the Holy Spirit does not ἐκπορευόμενον from the Son. Yes, we've tried explaining this to you a million times and you'll never accept that we all actually believe the same thing. We get it.

But yes it would be rude to actually say "AND THE SON!" during the creed, so I don't.

Are you a neo-conservative?

No. Why do you ask?
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Peter J on May 20, 2011, 06:02:53 PM
I remember once when some RC seminarians came with one of their priests to see our liturgy. I can remember another instance when an epsicopalian priest came to see someone speak. Our priest also teaches a class on Orthodoxy at Xavier and requires his students to attend a liturgy and write a paper on it.

Just don't go up for communion and do recite the creed as it is in the service book and you'll be fine.
I always say "Filioque" under my breath to be impertinent.*

Admittedly I don't do this at my Ruthenian Church so I guess I'm just trying to give you guys a hard time.

* I don't say it when it's recited in Greek because the Holy Spirit does not ἐκπορευόμενον from the Son. Yes, we've tried explaining this to you a million times and you'll never accept that we all actually believe the same thing. We get it.

But yes it would be rude to actually say "AND THE SON!" during the creed, so I don't.

Are you a neo-conservative?

No. Why do you ask?

Just curious. I've been trying to get a better handle on how neo-conservatives think.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Asteriktos on May 20, 2011, 06:04:05 PM
Just curious. I've been trying to get a better handle on how neo-conservatives think.

You assume too much ;)
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Peter J on May 20, 2011, 06:08:51 PM
Just curious. I've been trying to get a better handle on how neo-conservatives think.

You assume too much ;)

Hey don't make me come over there.

 :D
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Peter J on May 20, 2011, 06:09:14 PM
The subject of ecumenical relations is one of the agreed-to topics to be addressed by the long planned Holy and Great Synod (Council) of the Orthodox Church. The pre-conciliar work on this topic hasn't yet been addressed.

I pray that this council does not turn into another Vatican II.

Do you see the current state of Orthodoxy as comparable to Catholicism as it was on the eve of Vatican II?

No, not exactly. It is not a liturgical renewal per se, but a push for the reunion of all the Church, which is what Vatican II was all about too.

But the way I see it, Vatican II didn't just come out of nowhere. The only way that it makes sense for you to worry about "another Vatican II" happening in Orthodoxy is if you believe that Orthodoxy is currently where Catholicism was 50 years ago. Hence my question.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 21, 2011, 12:40:25 AM
But I will say the last time I went to Divine Liturgy I served at the altar with an Orthodox gentleman (not canonically Catholic) who communed.

You're talking about at the Ruthenian church?
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 21, 2011, 12:40:25 AM
So heretics are allowed behind the iconostasis but not pious Orthodox women? Am I understanding this correctly??

Often this is the case, yes.

*sigh*
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 21, 2011, 12:40:25 AM
Roman Catholics have not been declared to be "heretics" by a pan-Orthodox Synod, while they have added innovations and have deviated from the doctrine of the Ecumenical Synods (the additions to the Symbol of Faith), they've not been officially deemed to be in heresy.  They've been so referred to by learned Orthodox clergy and saints, but not by the Orthodox Church officially.  It's been said that they do not share the fullness of the Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

They don't need to be individually judged to be heretics to actually be heretics.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Inquisitor on June 01, 2011, 05:23:40 PM
It's not that I want to watch it as a performance in the theater - I think it's a valid celebration of the eucharist by a priest in valid apostolic succession, and that attending it would be a spiritually enriching experience. I don't think it's fair to bifurcate between "Want to become Orthodox" and "Are attending the liturgy as a theatrical novelty". On the other hand, I do understand why Orthodox Christians might consider it intrusive, and I do not want to offend the parishioners.

Perhaps if you would tell to your own catholic bishop your plans to assist to a service in the OC, he will advice you severly not to do it or get excomunicated.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Robb on June 01, 2011, 05:41:28 PM
It's not that I want to watch it as a performance in the theater - I think it's a valid celebration of the eucharist by a priest in valid apostolic succession, and that attending it would be a spiritually enriching experience. I don't think it's fair to bifurcate between "Want to become Orthodox" and "Are attending the liturgy as a theatrical novelty". On the other hand, I do understand why Orthodox Christians might consider it intrusive, and I do not want to offend the parishioners.

Perhaps if you would tell to your own catholic bishop your plans to assist to a service in the OC, he will advice you severly not to do it or get excomunicated.

I highly doubt that any RC could get excommunicated for wanting to participate in an EO liturgy or service these days.  On the contrary, the modern RCC encourages Catholic/Orthodox intercommunion and cooperation as much as possible.  You'd probably be commended by the Church authorities for wanting to take such a great step in promoting dialogue and unity between the Churches.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Inquisitor on June 02, 2011, 10:06:00 AM
It's not that I want to watch it as a performance in the theater - I think it's a valid celebration of the eucharist by a priest in valid apostolic succession, and that attending it would be a spiritually enriching experience. I don't think it's fair to bifurcate between "Want to become Orthodox" and "Are attending the liturgy as a theatrical novelty". On the other hand, I do understand why Orthodox Christians might consider it intrusive, and I do not want to offend the parishioners.

Perhaps if you would tell to your own catholic bishop your plans to assist to a service in the OC, he will advice you severly not to do it or get excomunicated.

I highly doubt that any RC could get excommunicated for wanting to participate in an EO liturgy or service these days.  On the contrary, the modern RCC encourages Catholic/Orthodox intercommunion and cooperation as much as possible.  You'd probably be commended by the Church authorities for wanting to take such a great step in promoting dialogue and unity between the Churches.


Well that is there in USA but not in catholic  countries, I mean in countries were catholicism is the main  religion. I know some ones who in a time went to  a eastern liturgy and when they comented such with their Catholic priest, they were warned not to do it again or will get excomunicated.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Peter J on June 02, 2011, 11:37:01 AM
It's not that I want to watch it as a performance in the theater - I think it's a valid celebration of the eucharist by a priest in valid apostolic succession, and that attending it would be a spiritually enriching experience. I don't think it's fair to bifurcate between "Want to become Orthodox" and "Are attending the liturgy as a theatrical novelty". On the other hand, I do understand why Orthodox Christians might consider it intrusive, and I do not want to offend the parishioners.

Perhaps if you would tell to your own catholic bishop your plans to assist to a service in the OC, he will advice you severly not to do it or get excomunicated.

I highly doubt that any RC could get excommunicated for wanting to participate in an EO liturgy or service these days.  On the contrary, the modern RCC encourages Catholic/Orthodox intercommunion and cooperation as much as possible.  You'd probably be commended by the Church authorities for wanting to take such a great step in promoting dialogue and unity between the Churches.


Well that is there in USA but not in catholic  countries, I mean in countries were catholicism is the main  religion. I know some ones who in a time went to  a eastern liturgy and when they comented such with their Catholic priest, they were warned not to do it again or will get excomunicated.

Can you tell us any more about this "eastern liturgy" they attended? So far we know only (1) that it was a liturgy and (2) that it was eastern rather than western. Not a lot to go on.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Inquisitor on June 02, 2011, 11:46:32 AM
It's not that I want to watch it as a performance in the theater - I think it's a valid celebration of the eucharist by a priest in valid apostolic succession, and that attending it would be a spiritually enriching experience. I don't think it's fair to bifurcate between "Want to become Orthodox" and "Are attending the liturgy as a theatrical novelty". On the other hand, I do understand why Orthodox Christians might consider it intrusive, and I do not want to offend the parishioners.

Perhaps if you would tell to your own catholic bishop your plans to assist to a service in the OC, he will advice you severly not to do it or get excomunicated.

I highly doubt that any RC could get excommunicated for wanting to participate in an EO liturgy or service these days.  On the contrary, the modern RCC encourages Catholic/Orthodox intercommunion and cooperation as much as possible.  You'd probably be commended by the Church authorities for wanting to take such a great step in promoting dialogue and unity between the Churches.


Well that is there in USA but not in catholic  countries, I mean in countries were catholicism is the main  religion. I know some ones who in a time went to  a eastern liturgy and when they comented such with their Catholic priest, they were warned not to do it again or will get excomunicated.

Can you tell us any more about this "eastern liturgy" they attended? So far we know only (1) that it was a liturgy and (2) that it was eastern rather than western. Not a lot to go on.

They went with antiochians
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Peter J on June 02, 2011, 11:56:54 AM
It's not that I want to watch it as a performance in the theater - I think it's a valid celebration of the eucharist by a priest in valid apostolic succession, and that attending it would be a spiritually enriching experience. I don't think it's fair to bifurcate between "Want to become Orthodox" and "Are attending the liturgy as a theatrical novelty". On the other hand, I do understand why Orthodox Christians might consider it intrusive, and I do not want to offend the parishioners.

Perhaps if you would tell to your own catholic bishop your plans to assist to a service in the OC, he will advice you severly not to do it or get excomunicated.

I highly doubt that any RC could get excommunicated for wanting to participate in an EO liturgy or service these days.  On the contrary, the modern RCC encourages Catholic/Orthodox intercommunion and cooperation as much as possible.  You'd probably be commended by the Church authorities for wanting to take such a great step in promoting dialogue and unity between the Churches.


Well that is there in USA but not in catholic  countries, I mean in countries were catholicism is the main  religion. I know some ones who in a time went to  a eastern liturgy and when they comented such with their Catholic priest, they were warned not to do it again or will get excomunicated.

Can you tell us any more about this "eastern liturgy" they attended? So far we know only (1) that it was a liturgy and (2) that it was eastern rather than western. Not a lot to go on.

They went with antiochians

OK, so now we've got 3 possibilities:
1. The priest's objection was based on a compass direction (eastern).
2. The priest's objection was based on an ethnicity (antiochian).
3. There's more to the story than what's been said here.

Guess which of those possibilities I'm leaning toward. ;D

BTW, let me wish you a belated Welcome to the forum.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Inquisitor on June 02, 2011, 12:07:18 PM
No one priest would object on Catholics attending Ab Orientem Tridentine Mass, as long as they do not claim Sede Vacante. Thank you for your welcome
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Schultz on June 02, 2011, 12:58:02 PM
No one priest would object on Catholics attending Ab Orientem Tridentine Mass, as long as they do not claim Sede Vacante. Thank you for your welcome

there are plenty of priests who would object to their parishoners attending a Tridentine Mass.  Heck, there are plenty of bishops who would do the same.  There's a reason why Summorum Pontificum was released.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on June 02, 2011, 01:11:54 PM
I am a Catholic with no plans to convert to Orthodoxy, but I am interested to attend a Orthodox Divine Liturgy. I of course would not take the eucharist or anything improper like that, but I was curious how Eastern Orthodox Christians felt about this? Is it seen as rude or intrusive? I will ask the priest of the parish in question as well, of course.

If you are around Columbia, South Carolina, you would certainly be welcomed at the Holy Apostles Orthodox Church (OCA). Come and see.
Title: Re: How do Orthodox feel about a Catholic attending their Divine Liturgy?
Post by: Peter J on June 02, 2011, 02:49:37 PM
No one priest would object on Catholics attending Ab Orientem Tridentine Mass, as long as they do not claim Sede Vacante.

Ab Orientem ... I like it.

Seriously though, it hadn't occurred to me that "eastern liturgy" could be taken to mean Ad Orientem, so touche on that point. However, the last time I checked, the SSPX isn't Sede Vacantist. Are you saying that no Catholic priest would object to Catholics attending SSPX masses?

Thank you for your welcome

You're welcome.