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Moderated Forums => Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion => Orthodox-Catholic Discussion => Topic started by: jordanz on March 30, 2011, 09:34:24 PM

Title: "Queen of Heaven" and "Theotokos, Crowned by the Trinity" -- Difference?
Post by: jordanz on March 30, 2011, 09:34:24 PM
Over on a thread about the Rosary Altar Boy listed (http://goo.gl/5HIzy) the various mysteries of the St. Seraphim adaptation of the Rosary.  

The last 'mystery' is "The Crowning of the Mother of God by the Blessed Trinity".  How is this different from "The Coronation of Mary, Queen of Heaven" (Maria Regina) in the Roman tradition?  Is there a significant theological difference, or is this a case of distinctive Western and Eastern titles for the same doctrine?  
Title: Re: "Queen of Heaven" and "Theotokos, Crowned by the Trinity" -- Difference?
Post by: deusveritasest on March 30, 2011, 09:50:16 PM
As far as I have seen, both sides recognize the Theotokos as being essentially the Queen Mum of the Universe & Heaven.
Title: Re: "Queen of Heaven" and "Theotokos, Crowned by the Trinity" -- Difference?
Post by: Altar Server on March 30, 2011, 10:25:23 PM
Mary is Recognized as Queen of Heaven and Earth in the Orthodox tradition in my experience as well as Mother of the Church.
Title: Re: "Queen of Heaven" and "Theotokos, Crowned by the Trinity" -- Difference?
Post by: Irish Hermit on March 31, 2011, 12:04:44 AM
Dear Jordanz,

For a theological comment, from the Melkite bishops, please see message 2

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,34557.msg545798.html#msg545798

________________

Also, click on the Tag "Queen of Heaven" at the bottom left of this page.
Title: Re: "Queen of Heaven" and "Theotokos, Crowned by the Trinity" -- Difference?
Post by: jordanz on March 31, 2011, 06:43:55 AM
Dear Jordanz,

For a theological comment, from the Melkite bishops, please see message 2

Also, click on the Tag "Queen of Heaven" at the bottom left of this page.

Thanks.  I now see that both West and East hold to the same doctrine, but under different names.

Heck, I even read somewhere that Martin Luther confessed that Our Lady is the Queen of Heaven!  (no joke).  Then again, I also think I read somewhere that Martin Luther still held to the Holy Dormition/Assumption even after his official break with the Roman Church.
Title: Re: "Queen of Heaven" and "Theotokos, Crowned by the Trinity" -- Difference?
Post by: LBK on March 31, 2011, 09:35:06 AM
Quote
Heck, I even read somewhere that Martin Luther confessed that Our Lady is the Queen of Heaven!  (no joke).  Then again, I also think I read somewhere that Martin Luther still held to the Holy Dormition/Assumption even after his official break with the Roman Church.

Luther also espoused the perpetual virginity of the Mother of God, as did, surprisingly enough, Calvin and Zwingli. The attempt to completely remove the Mother of God from the record (Mary reduced to a mere "vessel", or the notion that she and Joseph had further children) appeared centuries later in protestant thought and belief.
Title: Re: "Queen of Heaven" and "Theotokos, Crowned by the Trinity" -- Difference?
Post by: Benjamin the Red on April 01, 2011, 04:40:59 PM
Quote
Heck, I even read somewhere that Martin Luther confessed that Our Lady is the Queen of Heaven!  (no joke).  Then again, I also think I read somewhere that Martin Luther still held to the Holy Dormition/Assumption even after his official break with the Roman Church.

Luther also espoused the perpetual virginity of the Mother of God, as did, surprisingly enough, Calvin and Zwingli. The attempt to completely remove the Mother of God from the record (Mary reduced to a mere "vessel", or the notion that she and Joseph had further children) appeared centuries later in protestant thought and belief.

Protestants as late as John Wesley in the 17th century accepted the Perpetual Virginity of the Theotokos without any question whatsoever. They also tended to refer to her, I believe, as the Mother of God (I know Calvin did) as well. That was standard until quite recently (last couple centuries).

When I found this out...I was shocked, and felt betrayed by my Protestant upbringing! It actually played a large role in my digging deeper into Holy Tradition, and ultimately my conversion to Orthodoxy.
Title: Re: "Queen of Heaven" and "Theotokos, Crowned by the Trinity" -- Difference?
Post by: Wyatt on April 01, 2011, 04:59:43 PM
When I found this out...I was shocked, and felt betrayed by my Protestant upbringing! It actually played a large role in my digging deeper into Holy Tradition, and ultimately my conversion to Orthodoxy.
Thanks be to God. I had a similar experience on my way to coming into full communion with the Catholic Church.
Title: Re: "Queen of Heaven" and "Theotokos, Crowned by the Trinity" -- Difference?
Post by: jordanz on April 01, 2011, 05:07:12 PM
Luther also espoused the perpetual virginity of the Mother of God, as did, surprisingly enough, Calvin and Zwingli. The attempt to completely remove the Mother of God from the record (Mary reduced to a mere "vessel", or the notion that she and Joseph had further children) appeared centuries later in protestant thought and belief.

Protestants as late as John Wesley in the 17th century accepted the Perpetual Virginity of the Theotokos without any question whatsoever. They also tended to refer to her, I believe, as the Mother of God (I know Calvin did) as well. That was standard until quite recently (last couple centuries).

When I found this out...I was shocked, and felt betrayed by my Protestant upbringing! It actually played a large role in my digging deeper into Holy Tradition, and ultimately my conversion to Orthodoxy.

Okay, so which Protestants believe in the perpetual virginity and which don't?

Anglicanism officially believes in the perpetual virginity.  Given the recent theological atomization of Anglicanism, it's hard to tell what "Anglicanism" means anymore.

Confessional Lutherans believe in the perpetual virginity.

Do most Reformed Christians still believe in the perpetual virginity?  How about Arminianist traditions?

Title: Re: "Queen of Heaven" and "Theotokos, Crowned by the Trinity" -- Difference?
Post by: jordanz on April 01, 2011, 09:35:17 PM
Okay, so which Protestants believe in the perpetual virginity and which don't?

Anglicanism officially believes in the perpetual virginity.  Given the recent theological atomization of Anglicanism, it's hard to tell what "Anglicanism" means anymore.

Confessional Lutherans believe in the perpetual virginity.

Do most Reformed Christians still believe in the perpetual virginity?  How about Arminianist traditions?

I'm spinning this one off to the Orthodox/Protestantism sub-board.