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Moderated Forums => Free-For-All => Religious Topics => Topic started by: Irish Hermit on February 24, 2011, 11:57:36 PM

Title: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Irish Hermit on February 24, 2011, 11:57:36 PM

(http://www.oca.org/Images/News/2008/2008-1112-jonah.jpg)

Isa, what on earth is this?  Bishop Tikhon say that Metropoliatn Jonah has been placed on mandatory leave of absence.  Is it just a joke?
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind1102D&L=ORTHODOX&T=0&F=&S=&P=13719
Title: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: ialmisry on February 25, 2011, 12:52:57 AM
Isa, what on earth is this?  Bishop Tikhon say that Metropoliatn Jonah has been placed on mandatory leave of absence.  Is it just a joke?
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind1102D&L=ORTHODOX&T=0&F=&S=&P=13719
I've made inquiries. I'm asking third parties, as besides Met. Jonah, I know everyone else mentioned personally (I found out that I knew Bishop Tikhon better then I thought when his grace came up to me at the consecration of Bishop Melchisedek and started catching up on old time-we hadn't seen each other for two decades, when he had first converted) and don't want to compromise anyone.  Your post is the first I've heard of this.
Title: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Fr. George on February 25, 2011, 12:53:49 AM

[img width=300pt]http://www.oca.org/Images/News/2008/2008-1112-jonah.jpg[/img]

Isa, what on earth is this?  Bishop Tikhon say that Metropoliatn Jonah has been placed on mandatory leave of absence.  Is it just a joke?
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind1102D&L=ORTHODOX&T=0&F=&S=&P=13719

According a blog that's reporting the info (which was most likely sent by Bishop TIKHON using his pre-ordination name), after they received the message they called a friend, who "verified" the info with a "very senior priest" in the OCA.  There is as yet no info on oca.org or ocanews.org.  I'm a bit skeptical, but it's a bit early for April Fool's Day, too.

Here another location: http://02varvara.wordpress.com/
Another location: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Irenikon/message/44049 (note the reply at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Irenikon/message/44060 )
Title: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: ialmisry on February 25, 2011, 01:13:03 AM

[img width=300pt]http://www.oca.org/Images/News/2008/2008-1112-jonah.jpg[/img]

Isa, what on earth is this?  Bishop Tikhon say that Metropoliatn Jonah has been placed on mandatory leave of absence.  Is it just a joke?
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind1102D&L=ORTHODOX&T=0&F=&S=&P=13719

According a blog that's reporting the info (which was most likely sent by Bishop TIKHON using his pre-ordination name), after they received the message they called a friend, who "verified" the info with a "very senior priest" in the OCA.  There is as yet no info on oca.org or ocanews.org.  I'm a bit skeptical, but it's a bit early for April Fool's Day, too.

Here another location: http://02varvara.wordpress.com/
Voices from Russia, NY. The National Enquirer of Orthodoxy.  I just was looking at something he posted right after Bishop Jonah was consecrated.  None of the predictions he made then have come to pass.


Quote
Another location: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Irenikon/message/44049 (note the reply at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Irenikon/message/44060 )
Lee Fitzgerald isn't Bishop Tikhon's pre-ordination name. Not even close.
Ah. I see they mean the retired Bishop Tikhon. My bad.

Still, I'll find out, Lord willing.
Title: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: ialmisry on February 25, 2011, 01:26:50 AM
I've received word that evidently there is smoke, but I haven't got enough that I want to yell fire just yet.

Lord have mercy!
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Basil 320 on February 25, 2011, 02:03:38 AM
What?  I thought this was a joke when I saw it on Orthodox-Forum @Yahoo Groups.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Aristobolus on February 25, 2011, 04:43:49 AM
Perhaps these cryptic comments may refer to this:

"The Metropolitan had accused Fr. Garklavs of "disloyalty" in light of a recent report to the Synod from the Sexual Misconduct Policy Advisory Committee - a Committee formed by the Metropolitan of which Fr. Garklavs was a member - which was highly critical of the Metropolitan's actions, and inactions, in this field over the past 2 years.

No announcement of any decisions taken by the Synod has been made.  According to informed sources, a press release may be issued before the weekend."

http://www.ocanews.org/news/News2.24.11.html

I pray this is not the case.  Kyrie Eleison.

Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: SDMPNS on February 25, 2011, 08:36:30 AM
So if you tell the truth you can be fired?
Are we not Christians?
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Fr. George on February 25, 2011, 09:35:43 AM
I've received word that evidently there is smoke, but I haven't got enough that I want to yell fire just yet.

Your caution is good; there is no sense in making this out to be a big issue if it ends up being a joke or a hoax.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Monk Vasyl on February 25, 2011, 10:02:23 AM
I've received word that evidently there is smoke, but I haven't got enough that I want to yell fire just yet.

Your caution is good; there is no sense in making this out to be a big issue if it ends up being a joke or a hoax.

Amen to that.  I checked the OCA web site and there was no mention of this, so I wonder...

On the Indiana list, there is one character calling for the dissolving of the OCA.  How can some honestly make a statement like that without getting verification of this rumor?
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Orest on February 25, 2011, 10:08:54 AM
Perhaps these cryptic comments may refer to this:

"The Metropolitan had accused Fr. Garklavs of "disloyalty" in light of a recent report to the Synod from the Sexual Misconduct Policy Advisory Committee - a Committee formed by the Metropolitan of which Fr. Garklavs was a member - which was highly critical of the Metropolitan's actions, and inactions, in this field over the past 2 years.

No announcement of any decisions taken by the Synod has been made.  According to informed sources, a press release may be issued before the weekend."

http://www.ocanews.org/news/News2.24.11.html 

The part about the inaction and lack of following proper procedure of the OCA consistory as a whole dealing with problems of sexual abuse is true and has upset many.  Especially involving the upcoming court case of suspended Archbishop Seraphim in Winnipeg.
let's hope that in the future, delays and other mistakes will not be made.


Fixed quote box, nothing more - Fr. George, GM
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: FatherGiryus on February 25, 2011, 10:56:14 AM
Lee Fitzgerald is the birth name of Bishop Tikhon (formerly) of San Francisco, rather than Bishop Tikhon (presently) of Philadelphia.  He (Fitzgerald) was ordained as Dn. Stephen, and then later renamed Tikhon.

Are you thinking of the latter Tikhon?

His Grace had some issues with posting on the internet, specifically the Indiana List, and so this 'new' identity (as opposed to his famous 'Love +BT' posts) may be his attempt to continue posting his personal opinions without entangling the OCA.  Clergy and hierarchy must be cautious when speaking their opinions if they could be confused with official pronouncements of the Church.



Isa, what on earth is this?  Bishop Tikhon say that Metropoliatn Jonah has been placed on mandatory leave of absence.  Is it just a joke?
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind1102D&L=ORTHODOX&T=0&F=&S=&P=13719
I've made inquiries. I'm asking third parties, as besides Met. Jonah, I know everyone else mentioned personally (I found out that I knew Bishop Tikhon better then I thought when his grace came up to me at the consecration of Bishop Melchisedek and started catching up on old time-we hadn't seen each other for two decades, when he had first converted) and don't want to compromise anyone.  Your post is the first I've heard of this.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: ozgeorge on February 25, 2011, 11:04:07 AM
According to Church news sources in Greece, Metropolitan Jonah has just resigned:
http://romfea.gr/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7372:-oca-&catid=13

VERY rough translation:

News Flash -  Chief Metropolitan Jonah OCA Has Resigned.
25th February 2011. 10:22am

Exclusive - According to exclusive information given to «Romfea.gr», the Primate of OCA Metropolitan Jonah of America resigned a few hours ago.

The same information indicates that the locum tenens is Archbishop Nathaniel of the Romanian Episcopate of the OCA.

Finally, noting that the new head of the OCA will be elected during the Inter-American Meeting of the OCA in the autumn.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: PrincessMommy on February 25, 2011, 11:14:20 AM
According to Church news sources in Greece, Metropolitan Jonah has just resigned:
http://romfea.gr/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7372:-oca-&catid=13

It's been translated by Mystagogy:

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/02/metropolitan-jonah-of-oca-resigns.html#comments
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: ozgeorge on February 25, 2011, 11:21:13 AM
According to Church news sources in Greece, Metropolitan Jonah has just resigned:
http://romfea.gr/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7372:-oca-&catid=13

It's been translated by Mystagogy:

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/02/metropolitan-jonah-of-oca-resigns.html#comments

A better translation than mine!
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: 88Devin12 on February 25, 2011, 11:37:49 AM
+Jonah doesn't even have a reason to resign or be put on leave... What is such a big deal that he would have to?
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Orual on February 25, 2011, 11:41:15 AM
Someone just posted on Mystagogy that all he did was ask for a temporary sabbatical.  I think that sounds moderate enough that it's more likely to be the truth than the resignation story.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: podkarpatska on February 25, 2011, 11:43:57 AM
+Jonah doesn't even have a reason to resign or be put on leave... What is such a big deal that he would have to?

How do any of us know what is going on here?

 
Out of respect, we ought to refrain from comment until we know what is going on. Let's pray instead for the Metropolitan, the Synod and our brothers and sisters in the OCA. Lord, have mercy.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: SDMPNS on February 25, 2011, 11:46:03 AM
One reason may be not moving fast enough on the Archbishop Seraphim case...look at Pokrov.org...he allegedly wrote a letter saying that an investigation was being done than about two months later the Holy Synod ordered an investigation..
I also know people were upset about the Fr.Raymond Valencia case...
Why he resigned I do not know but lets all pray for him and the Church
Stephen
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: SDMPNS on February 25, 2011, 11:47:49 AM
If he did resign...maybe I shouldnt be jumping the gun
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Orual on February 25, 2011, 11:48:26 AM
+Jonah doesn't even have a reason to resign or be put on leave... What is such a big deal that he would have to?

"Uneasy lies the head that wears the crown"

Whatever the real story is on the matter between him and Fr. Garklavs, it can't be easy having your every move dissected and the parts thrown back in your face all the time.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: 88Devin12 on February 25, 2011, 11:50:40 AM
I would have to say that I wouldn't think (from what I've seen, even in the case of Archb. Seraphim & Fr. Garklavs) that those would be grounds for resignation. Maybe for him to go on temporary sabbatical, but not resignation/removal.

I know I shouldn't judge, but I can understand though, I believe Metropolitan Jonah probably has a much better conscious than other people we've had in the past...
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: podkarpatska on February 25, 2011, 11:53:24 AM
+Jonah doesn't even have a reason to resign or be put on leave... What is such a big deal that he would have to?

"Uneasy lies the head that wears the crown"

Whatever the real story is on the matter between him and Fr. Garklavs, it can't be easy having your every move dissected and the parts thrown back in your face all the time.

For those of you who are neither clergy nor members of clergy families, those words strike all to close to reality.  My dad was a consistory  member for over three decades under four Bishops in ACROD and such Byzantine intrigue truly is a curse upon Orthodoxy. I guess we invented the art form centuries ago in Constantinople and perfected it in Moscow, so it should come as no surprise. Lord, have mercy.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: LizaSymonenko on February 25, 2011, 12:06:59 PM

Lord, have mercy on all involved, and on all of us.

What happens to the least of our brothers, happens to us.

Whatever is going on, for whatever reasons, people are hurting.  May the Lord heal all involved.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Orual on February 25, 2011, 12:11:43 PM
+Jonah doesn't even have a reason to resign or be put on leave... What is such a big deal that he would have to?

"Uneasy lies the head that wears the crown"

Whatever the real story is on the matter between him and Fr. Garklavs, it can't be easy having your every move dissected and the parts thrown back in your face all the time.

For those of you who are neither clergy nor members of clergy families, those words strike all to close to reality.  My dad was a consistory  member for over three decades under four Bishops in ACROD and such Byzantine intrigue truly is a curse upon Orthodoxy. I guess we invented the art form centuries ago in Constantinople and perfected it in Moscow, so it should come as no surprise. Lord, have mercy.

Indeed.  If it's true that Fr. Garklavs came to him with well-intentioned criticism, the Met. might have taken it badly just because of the constant barrage of not-so-well-intentioned criticism.  I can picture him lashing out, realizing he was in the wrong, and deciding to take a break in order to get some perspective.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Ortho_cat on February 25, 2011, 12:18:42 PM
I think our imaginations may be starting to get the best of us now...
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Monk Vasyl on February 25, 2011, 12:20:42 PM
Found this on the web site of Holy Cross Orthodox Church, in Greensboro, NC:
"We have received word that His Beatitude, Metropolitan Jonah will not be able to come this weekend and has asked Bishop Mark, the administrator of the Diocese of the South, to come in his stead."
http://www.holycrossoca.org/ (http://www.holycrossoca.org/)

This neither confirms nor denies the rumor.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Fr. George on February 25, 2011, 12:22:53 PM
I think our imaginations may be starting to get the best of us now...

I don't think anyone is assuming that the resignation story is true; it's just being "floated" until a reliable source can confirm it.  I'll agree with the earlier assessment: the sabbatical is more likely to be true.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Orual on February 25, 2011, 12:27:47 PM
I think our imaginations may be starting to get the best of us now...

It's human nature to want to fill in the holes.  There was a study that found it's more distracting to listen to one side of a conversation than both sides (listening to someone on a phone versus two people conversing nearby), because in the first case your brain is anxious to figure out what the other, unheard person is saying, and doesn't want to concentrate on anything else.

I do not know if we will ever get the full conversation in this case, but my hope is that people will not go running and screaming "ZOMG HE RESIGNED!!!1!" when there are other plausible turns of events.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Ortho_cat on February 25, 2011, 12:29:10 PM
some guy's blog...again, nothing official:

http://elgreca262.blogspot.com/2011/02/metropolitan-jonah-resigns-syosset.html

http://elgreca262.blogspot.com/2011/02/met-jonah-oca-resigns-possible-causes.html
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Ortho_cat on February 25, 2011, 12:51:57 PM
Yikes...did we crash the server?  :o
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: augustin717 on February 25, 2011, 12:53:01 PM
it's true. It's on OCAnews.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: PrincessMommy on February 25, 2011, 12:53:14 PM

Lord, have mercy on all involved, and on all of us.

What happens to the least of our brothers, happens to us.

Whatever is going on, for whatever reasons, people are hurting.  May the Lord heal all involved.


Yes...


Lord have mercy!
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Ortho_cat on February 25, 2011, 12:55:05 PM
it's true. It's on OCAnews.

link?
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: LizaSymonenko on February 25, 2011, 12:57:09 PM


http://www.ocanews.org/
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: PoorFoolNicholas on February 25, 2011, 12:57:41 PM
it's true. It's on OCAnews.

link?
I second that!
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Ortho_cat on February 25, 2011, 12:59:11 PM


http://www.ocanews.org/

still nothing official from the real OCA (this link is Orthodox Christians for Accountability)

Again, they cite Romofea.org (but mention several other undisclosed sources)
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: augustin717 on February 25, 2011, 01:03:24 PM
Stokoe must know what he's talking about. wasn't he part of the metropolitan council or some such?
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: ozgeorge on February 25, 2011, 01:03:40 PM


http://www.ocanews.org/

still nothing official from the real OCA (this link is Orthodox Christians for Accountability)
And the information on ocanews.org is patently false.
Romfea.gr stated that Metropolitan Jonah resigned, not "has been removed as the Primate" as ocanews states.
Chinese whispers or wishful thinking on the part of ocanews?
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Ortho_cat on February 25, 2011, 01:04:44 PM
here is the site to keep an eye on. Until we see it here...

http://www.oca.org/news.html
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: jah777 on February 25, 2011, 01:19:42 PM
It is there...

http://ocanews.org/news/JonahLeaveofAbsence2.25.11.html
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: ialmisry on February 25, 2011, 01:23:54 PM
I've received word that evidently there is smoke, but I haven't got enough that I want to yell fire just yet.

Your caution is good; there is no sense in making this out to be a big issue if it ends up being a joke or a hoax.

Amen to that.  I checked the OCA web site and there was no mention of this, so I wonder...

On the Indiana list, there is one character calling for the dissolving of the OCA.  How can some honestly make a statement like that without getting verification of this rumor?
To be fair, those vultures are perpetually circling and have been perhaps even before the OCA received the Tomos of Autocephaly.

As for myself, either way it isn't going to change my poistion on the OCA a jot. Why should it?  Within 41 years of its own autocephaly, Constantinople managed right off the bat to drive its primate (now a glorified saint, and even then recognized as a living saint) from his see, exile another (another glorifeid saint, even then recognized as a lving saint) to his death splitting not only itself but the other Churches, and attempt to seize the territory of its superior. In 47 years it managed to elected a primate who started a heresy that led to the first permanent schism and heretical church in history.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: pensateomnia on February 25, 2011, 01:27:44 PM
And the information on ocanews.org is patently false.
Romfea.gr stated that Metropolitan Jonah resigned, not "has been removed as the Primate" as ocanews states.
Chinese whispers or wishful thinking on the part of ocanews?

Did you read past the first two paragraphs? Stokoe has a detailed account of what has been going on behind the scenes for months and why the OCA Synod has asked/required the Metropolitan to take a leave of absence.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: SDMPNS on February 25, 2011, 01:28:48 PM
Its true...the Holy Synod put him om premanent leave.. Arbp.National is the locum tenons.....the ew Metropolitan will be elected at the next AAC
its on ocanews.org........Mark Stokoe is a member of the Metropolitan Council
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: jah777 on February 25, 2011, 01:35:28 PM
As for myself, either way it isn't going to change my poistion on the OCA a jot. Why should it?  Within 41 years of its own autocephaly, Constantinople managed right off the bat to drive its primate (now a glorified saint, and even then recognized as a living saint) from his see, exile another (another glorifeid saint, even then recognized as a lving saint) to his death splitting not only itself but the other Churches, and attempt to seize the territory of its superior. In 47 years it managed to elected a primate who started a heresy that led to the first permanent schism and heretical church in history.

Could you please explain what you are referring to here?  What glorified saints?  What heretical church?
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: ozgeorge on February 25, 2011, 01:37:21 PM
Its true...the Holy Synod put him om premanent leave.. Arbp.National is the locum tenons.....the ew Metropolitan will be elected at the next AAC
Were you drunk when you typed this?
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: pensateomnia on February 25, 2011, 01:40:35 PM
Could you please explain what you are referring to here?  What glorified saints?  What heretical church?

I think he's talking about Constantinople in the fourth and fifth century: St. Gregory the Theologian (booted), St. John Chrysostom (booted), and Nestorius, whose followers still constitute their own church even today (unlike the Arians who eventually fell to the Frankish sword).

Only slightly complicated thing: It was St. John Chrysostom who did the most to extend Constantinople's authority over surrounding Metropolitical Sees (eventually leading to Canon 28). And that's definitely a no no, according to Isa.  ;D
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Basil 320 on February 25, 2011, 01:48:00 PM
Me too, what are you talking about, almisry?  Who are these saintly primates and from what church did they resign?
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: jah777 on February 25, 2011, 01:48:08 PM
He's talking about Constantinople in the fourth and fifth century: St. Gregory the Theologian (booted), St. John Chrysostom (booted), and Nestorius, whose followers still exist.

Only slightly complicated thing: It was St. John Chrysostom who did the most to extend Constantinople's authority over surrounding Metropolitical Sees (eventually leading to Canon 28).

Thank you for clarifying!  I thought he was referring to the first 41 yrs of OCA's autocephally, which is why I was puzzled.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: pensateomnia on February 25, 2011, 01:51:56 PM
He's talking about Constantinople in the fourth and fifth century: St. Gregory the Theologian (booted), St. John Chrysostom (booted), and Nestorius, whose followers still exist.

Only slightly complicated thing: It was St. John Chrysostom who did the most to extend Constantinople's authority over surrounding Metropolitical Sees (eventually leading to Canon 28).

Thank you for clarifying!  I thought he was referring to the first 41 yrs of OCA's autocephally, which is why I was puzzled.

No. His ultimate point is that he still believes, despite all the scandals, that the OCA is A-OK because Constantinople had a very rocky history in the early years of its own autocephaly.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: jah777 on February 25, 2011, 01:57:13 PM
No. His ultimate point is that he still believes, despite all the scandals, that the OCA is A-OK because Constantinople had a very rocky history in the early years of its own autocephaly.

Yeah, good luck with that position! 

I'm not sure if most would compare Met Herman or even Met Jonah with Sts. Gregory the Theologian or John Chrysostom, but I would love to see the position of the Metropolitan of the OCA be occupied by a saintly person.  I think this is something to pray for! 
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: ialmisry on February 25, 2011, 02:01:51 PM
Could you please explain what you are referring to here?  What glorified saints?  What heretical church?

I think he's talking about Constantinople in the fourth and fifth century: St. Gregory the Theologian (booted), St. John Chrysostom (booted), and Nestorius, whose followers still constitute their own church even today (unlike the Arians who eventually fell to the Frankish sword).

Only slightly complicated thing: It was St. John Chrysostom who did the most to extend Constantinople's authority over surrounding Metropolitical Sees (eventually leading to Canon 28). And that's definitely a no no, according to Isa.  ;D
yes, but he didn't seize territory from sees which were defined already by Ecumenical Council as having precedence before him. In fact, his extension of authority was to intervene in the affairs of other Dioceses, and IIRC by their own request. When you have your own earned prestige and moral authority, it tends to rub off on your see.  When you don't, well, you tend to press twisted texts into service to legitimize your outlandish claims.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Sleeper on February 25, 2011, 02:02:08 PM
Its true...the Holy Synod put him om premanent leave.. Arbp.National is the locum tenons.....the ew Metropolitan will be elected at the next AAC
Were you drunk when you typed this?
:laugh:

Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: ialmisry on February 25, 2011, 02:05:32 PM
He's talking about Constantinople in the fourth and fifth century: St. Gregory the Theologian (booted), St. John Chrysostom (booted), and Nestorius, whose followers still exist.

Only slightly complicated thing: It was St. John Chrysostom who did the most to extend Constantinople's authority over surrounding Metropolitical Sees (eventually leading to Canon 28).

Thank you for clarifying!  I thought he was referring to the first 41 yrs of OCA's autocephally, which is why I was puzzled.

No. His ultimate point is that he still believes, despite all the scandals, that the OCA is A-OK because Constantinople had a very rocky history in the early years of its own autocephaly.
Oh, not just Constantinople, and not just in the beginning. Pat. Juvenaly, who got Jerusalem's autocephaly restored, was a complete scoundrel, and achieved his goal by ways that would make Tallyrand blush.

Our priest was just recounting a speech that Met. Philip gave that was basically "Up with Antioch!" recalling its glories, until he made the statement that "most heresies came from Antioch too."
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Fr. David on February 25, 2011, 02:36:29 PM
Its true...the Holy Synod put him om premanent leave.. Arbp.National is the locum tenons.....the ew Metropolitan will be elected at the next AAC
its on ocanews.org........Mark Stokoe is a member of the Metropolitan Council

So, typos aside...

From ocanews:

"Metropolitan Jonah has indeed been placed on a leave of absence, and that indeed +Nathaniel has been named as a temporary replacement."
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: SDMPNS on February 25, 2011, 02:44:58 PM
Should be very interesting to see how this plays out...I guess we should pray for the Church and all of the people involved including Met.Jonah.The next All American Council should be very interesting.....
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Monk Vasyl on February 25, 2011, 03:09:41 PM
Should be very interesting to see how this plays out...I guess we should pray for the Church and all of the people involved including Met.Jonah.The next All American Council should be very interesting.....

Oh to be an observer at that Council.  Still the official OCA web site is silent.  Don't they realize that their silence is fuel for rumors to spread.  I can imagine people are trying to put a new spin on that unofficial visit of His Beatitude to Russia.  It hurts me, since I was received into the Orthodox Church via the OCA.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: PrincessMommy on February 25, 2011, 03:11:40 PM
Should be very interesting to see how this plays out...I guess we should pray for the Church and all of the people involved including Met.Jonah.The next All American Council should be very interesting.....

Oh to be an observer at that Council.  Still the official OCA web site is silent.  Don't they realize that their silence is fuel for rumors to spread.  I can imagine people are trying to put a new spin on that unofficial visit of His Beatitude to Russia.  It hurts me, since I was received into the Orthodox Church via the OCA.

Agreed.  The silence is embarrassing. 

Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: SolEX01 on February 25, 2011, 03:13:44 PM
Lord have Mercy on the OCA.

Amen!
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: witega on February 25, 2011, 03:15:41 PM
Fr. Joseph Fester (another 'very senior OCA priest' with close ties to the Metropolitan) just posted the following to our parish mailing list:

"His Beatitude is going to take a rest but he is not on a Leave of Absence.  As we all know, his schedule for the past three years has been heroic but it does take its toll.

So he is going to take the time of the Great Fast to rest, retreat, and regain his strength.  He truly appreciates your love, prayers and concern.

Fr. Alexander Garklavs has resigned.  His Beatitude is grateful for his service.
Bishop Melchisadek has accepted to be the interim chancellor.  Archbishop Nathaniel will assist His Beatitude when necessary while the Metropolitan is retreating."
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Monk Vasyl on February 25, 2011, 03:19:41 PM
Fr. Joseph Fester (another 'very senior OCA priest' with close ties to the Metropolitan) just posted the following to our parish mailing list:

"His Beatitude is going to take a rest but he is not on a Leave of Absence.  As we all know, his schedule for the past three years has been heroic but it does take its toll.

So he is going to take the time of the Great Fast to rest, retreat, and regain his strength.  He truly appreciates your love, prayers and concern.

Fr. Alexander Garklavs has resigned.  His Beatitude is grateful for his service.
Bishop Melchisadek has accepted to be the interim chancellor.  Archbishop Nathaniel will assist His Beatitude when necessary while the Metropolitan is retreating."


That last word "retreating" sure has a double meaning...lol
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Orest on February 25, 2011, 03:22:01 PM
Fr. Joseph Fester (another 'very senior OCA priest' with close ties to the Metropolitan) just posted the following to our parish mailing list:

"His Beatitude is going to take a rest but he is not on a Leave of Absence.  As we all know, his schedule for the past three years has been heroic but it does take its toll.

So he is going to take the time of the Great Fast to rest, retreat, and regain his strength.  He truly appreciates your love, prayers and concern.

Fr. Alexander Garklavs has resigned.  His Beatitude is grateful for his service.
Bishop Melchisadek has accepted to be the interim chancellor.  Archbishop Nathaniel will assist His Beatitude when necessary while the Metropolitan is retreating."

Unfortunately, Fr. John Fester is considered to be a another "problematic" clergyman in the OCA.

See these comments about Fr. Fester’s role  in the Special Investigative Report, issued by the OCA in September 2008, under a special heading entitled “The Inner Circle”:


“11. The “Inner Circle.” Fathers David Brum and Joseph Fester served as confidants to Kondratick. They were regarded by others at the Chancery as part of an “inner circle,” responsible for day-to-day operations at the Chancery. As such, one would expect them to be aware of at least some of Kondratick’s financial dealings. Both denied such knowledge to the SIC.

However, they never questioned Kondratick’s largesse in extending favors (meals, gifts, and travel) believing them to be an expression of an exaggerated generosity. Questionable dealings and misdeeds brought to their attention in interviews were excused as having been “blessed” by one Metropolitan or the other, or because of “the incompetence of Strikis, “or because Wheeler or Kozey had an axe to grind. “
- (SIC Report page 27)

Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: PoorFoolNicholas on February 25, 2011, 03:26:59 PM
After reading this thread I find it difficult to believe anything that our clergy says anymore. Why are we waiting for an "official" announcement? How will we be able to believe that account if all the others are false? Lord have Mercy!
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on February 25, 2011, 03:29:23 PM
Its true...the Holy Synod put him om premanent leave.. Arbp.National is the locum tenons.....the ew Metropolitan will be elected at the next AAC
its on ocanews.org........Mark Stokoe is a member of the Metropolitan Council

So, typos aside...

From ocanews:

"Metropolitan Jonah has indeed been placed on a leave of absence, and that indeed +Nathaniel has been named as a temporary replacement."

Excellent point for this is Mark Stokoe's assessment even after reporting the allegation by Bishop Tikhon (retired) that the Metropolitan was forcibly retired. I think we need to be patient; I think by Sunday the situation will be much clearer.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Monk Vasyl on February 25, 2011, 03:35:17 PM
Until then we have the power of prayer.  Pray...pray real hard for the OCA, its leadership and its laity.  God knows they need our prayers.  Why pray for them?  If the least of our brothers and sisters is suffering, we suffer, too.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Orual on February 25, 2011, 03:38:03 PM
Should be very interesting to see how this plays out...I guess we should pray for the Church and all of the people involved including Met.Jonah.The next All American Council should be very interesting.....

Oh to be an observer at that Council.  Still the official OCA web site is silent.  Don't they realize that their silence is fuel for rumors to spread.  I can imagine people are trying to put a new spin on that unofficial visit of His Beatitude to Russia.  It hurts me, since I was received into the Orthodox Church via the OCA.

Agreed.  The silence is embarrassing. 



The rumor was leaked before they even had a chance for the dust to settle.  It takes time to get a press release together.  Please cut them some slack for being human.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: witega on February 25, 2011, 03:45:02 PM
Fr. Joseph's direct knowledge of the current status of all involved is based on his direct access to those individuals, regardless of what you may think about him personally--as opposed to the numerous unsourced rumors that are being bandied about here and elsewhere.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Ortho_cat on February 25, 2011, 03:55:15 PM
If Met. Jonah is just taking a break, do you think OCA will even have a news release? Or do you think they will issue something anyways to put all the controversy/hearsay to rest?
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave - NOT
Post by: Reader Patrick on February 25, 2011, 04:01:21 PM
I spoke with His Beatitude a short while ago.

He is not being "put on leave" by the Synod, but will take a short break from his usual duties - the first in two years. No resignation is in the offing, either.

May God enable the Metropolitan the Holy Synod to lead us in by example in mutual love, reconciliation and repentance during the last days of our preparation for and in upcoming Lenten season.  
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Ortho_cat on February 25, 2011, 04:01:45 PM
This just in:

http://www.oca.org/news/2430
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: TinaG on February 25, 2011, 04:05:47 PM
No matter what happens, let us not lose hope or be discouraged in our faith and in our Church.  I think most of us are so shocked and upset because we have placed a huge amount of faith, love and trust in Met. Jonah.  He came into our lives like a "savior", but we should never forget who are ultimate Savior is - the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.  Prayer is our only hope right now.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: mike on February 25, 2011, 04:06:26 PM
What a relief. Alert is over.

Why they can't make Bp Mark a diocesan Bishop instead of that locum temens - administrator distinction?
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: LizaSymonenko on February 25, 2011, 04:08:46 PM

What exactly is a Chancellor?  What is his role?
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave - NOT
Post by: Orual on February 25, 2011, 04:10:34 PM
I spoke with His Beatitude a short while ago.

He is not being "put on leave" by the Synod, but will take a short break from his usual duties - the first in two years. No resignation is in the offing, either.

May God enable the Metropolitan the Holy Synod to lead us in by example in mutual love, reconciliation and repentance during the last days of our preparation for and in upcoming Lenten season.  

Good for him.  I hope this will be a spiritually profitable Great Lent for His Beatitude.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: TinaG on February 25, 2011, 04:10:53 PM
Another great example of why rumors on the Internet spread like wildfire - they are hot, fast and burn indiscriminately.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: witega on February 25, 2011, 04:11:57 PM
What a relief. Alert is over.

Why they can't make Bp Mark a diocesan Bishop instead of that locum temens - administrator distinction?

Because we in the Diocese get some say in the election of our new bishop and that has not happened yet. I've been under the assumption since Bishop Mark was assigned here as administrator that that makes him the front-runner to become our new diocesan bishop (and that that is in fact why he was assigned here)--but that won't happen at least until the next Diocesan Assembly.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Orest on February 25, 2011, 04:17:45 PM
www.oca.org
Holy Synod Announces Changes
Posted 02/25

SYOSSET, NY [OCA] -- From February 22-24, 2011, the Holy Synod of Bishops of the Orthodox Church in America participated in a retreat in Santa Fe, New Mexico. His Beatitude, Metropolitan JONAH led the hierarchs in a review of matters affecting the life of the Orthodox Church in America, including the OCA strategic plan, preparations for the upcoming Assembly of Bishops and plans for the 16th All American Council in Seattle.


The rest of this article can be read here: http://www.oca.org/news/2430 (http://www.oca.org/news/2430)

Post truncated to make compliant with new forum policy on quoting news articles: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13455.msg456852.html#msg456852 (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13455.msg456852.html#msg456852)

-PtA
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: jah777 on February 25, 2011, 04:42:08 PM
What a relief. Alert is over.

It is good to hope for the best, and for now it seems best to accept the news story on the official site.  Things are not always as they seem, however.  Remember that the official OCA news announcement regarding Met. Herman was that he requested retirement on account of his health.  It became clear quite quickly, however, that there was much more to the story.  Speculation, however, is not profitable beyond the troubles that have been revealed.  Let us use the Lenten period to fast and pray for the OCA and for the salvation of our own souls, and see what happens in 60 days.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Orest on February 25, 2011, 04:49:42 PM
What a relief. Alert is over.

It is good to hope for the best, and for now it seems best to accept the news story on the official site.  Things are not always as they seem, however.  Remember that the official OCA news announcement regarding Met. Herman was that he requested retirement on account of his health.  It became clear quite quickly, however, that there was much more to the story.  Speculation, however, is not profitable beyond the troubles that have been revealed.  Let us use the Lenten period to fast and pray for the OCA and for the salvation of our own souls, and see what happens in 60 days.
Yes, I forgot about the Metr. Herman "for my health" ect.
The same can be said about Archbishop Seraphim's letter about a leave of absence followed by the news on Canadian TV and in the Winnipeg Free Press that he was being charged with 2 counts of sex abuse of minors.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Ortho_cat on February 25, 2011, 05:04:44 PM
What a relief. Alert is over.

It is good to hope for the best, and for now it seems best to accept the news story on the official site.  Things are not always as they seem, however.  Remember that the official OCA news announcement regarding Met. Herman was that he requested retirement on account of his health.  It became clear quite quickly, however, that there was much more to the story.  Speculation, however, is not profitable beyond the troubles that have been revealed.  Let us use the Lenten period to fast and pray for the OCA and for the salvation of our own souls, and see what happens in 60 days.

QFT
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: SDMPNS on February 25, 2011, 05:10:50 PM
Lets fast and pray and hope for the best...I too remember Met.Herman and the "health"  letter...boy was that a crock!
I wonder what they will say in 60 days...those of us who have been around have certainly seen it all...
it is never dull in American Orthodoxy..
I hate organized religion...thats why I'm Orthodox1
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Monk Vasyl on February 25, 2011, 05:12:09 PM
Some of remember all too well what one of our bishops went through with total exhaustion.  Poor Bishop Daniel landed himself in the hospital.  Hopefully His Beatitude will have time to rebuild his physical, as well as his spiritual health.  
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: LizaSymonenko on February 25, 2011, 05:24:54 PM

Remember it very well.  His flock was very concerned for his well-being.  Thank God he is recovered and back at the helm.

May the Lord have mercy on Metr. Jonah, and all of us.

For as it was mentioned before - we are all in this together.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Father H on February 25, 2011, 05:30:55 PM
Some of remember all too well what one of our bishops went through with total exhaustion.  Poor Bishop Daniel landed himself in the hospital.  Hopefully His Beatitude will have time to rebuild his physical, as well as his spiritual health.  

Very good Father.  "We are members one of another."   Hopefully we all are praying for the health of His Beatitude, the health of the OCA, and the health of all the hierarchs, clergy, and brothers and sisters in the Lord in the Lord's Holy Orthodox Church here in America (in addition to our brothers and sisters living in the turmoil of africa and the middle east).  
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: ialmisry on February 25, 2011, 05:36:06 PM
Some of remember all too well what one of our bishops went through with total exhaustion.  Poor Bishop Daniel landed himself in the hospital.  Hopefully His Beatitude will have time to rebuild his physical, as well as his spiritual health.  
And we remember what happened to Arbp. Job of blessed memory. Memory Eternal!
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: dilios on February 25, 2011, 05:37:10 PM
What a relief. Alert is over.

It is good to hope for the best, and for now it seems best to accept the news story on the official site.  Things are not always as they seem, however.  Remember that the official OCA news announcement regarding Met. Herman was that he requested retirement on account of his health.  It became clear quite quickly, however, that there was much more to the story.  Speculation, however, is not profitable beyond the troubles that have been revealed.  Let us use the Lenten period to fast and pray for the OCA and for the salvation of our own souls, and see what happens in 60 days.

Amen
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: TinaG on February 25, 2011, 05:39:31 PM
What is the matter with us as Christians when so many are quick to assume that beyond the official news report, there's a simmering financial scandal or some kind of hushed up sexual impropriety?   I suppose it's our knee jerk conditioning to the many times we've been let down by the human failings of those in leadership.  However, it breeds distrust, paranoia, cynicism and eventually a dead heart towards the Church.  
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Father H on February 25, 2011, 05:43:43 PM

Remember it very well.  His flock was very concerned for his well-being.  Thank God he is recovered and back at the helm.

May the Lord have mercy on Metr. Jonah, and all of us.

For as it was mentioned before - we are all in this together.


Very true Liza!   Especially as we approach the Sunday of the Last Judgment, "their" problems are really "our" problems.   Woe to us if we hear from the Lord at the last judgment that He was naked and we gave Him not at least the clothing of prayer and love, or that He was sick and we did not visit Him.   We ARE all in this together, because He is in it, and we are in Him.  
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Monk Vasyl on February 25, 2011, 05:45:20 PM
Some of remember all too well what one of our bishops went through with total exhaustion.  Poor Bishop Daniel landed himself in the hospital.  Hopefully His Beatitude will have time to rebuild his physical, as well as his spiritual health.  
And we remember what happened to Arbp. Job of blessed memory. Memory Eternal!

I have such fond memories, when His Eminence was my bishop when I was a member of Holy Trinity Cathedral, in Boston.  Memory Eternal!
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Father H on February 25, 2011, 06:06:16 PM
What is the matter with us as Christians when so many are quick to assume that beyond the official news report, there's a simmering financial scandal or some kind of hushed up sexual impropriety?   I suppose it's our knee jerk conditioning to the many times we've been let down by the human failings of those in leadership.  However, it breeds distrust, paranoia, cynicism and eventually a dead heart towards the Church.  

I agree, its not good.  But sometimes I think we are looking too much for the Church to be the "perfect church" rather than as a spiritual hospital.  Even high-ranking surgeons and physicians on the hospital board get sick, and sometimes seriously ill.   The type of sickness and the behavioral reaction to their sickness determines whether they are removed from their positions of authority, their positions, or their practice of medicine.   That we are quick to assume that an illness breeds a scandal before the facts come in says more about the state of our individual and collective spiritual health than it does about anything else.   If those that are part of the problem or part of the solution are to suspend judgment until all the facts come in, how much moreso those of us that are not part of either one?        
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Irish_Melkite on February 25, 2011, 06:16:50 PM
What is the matter with us as Christians when so many are quick to assume that beyond the official news report, there's a simmering financial scandal or some kind of hushed up sexual impropriety?   I suppose it's our knee jerk conditioning to the many times we've been let down by the human failings of those in leadership.  However, it breeds distrust, paranoia, cynicism and eventually a dead heart towards the Church.  

Tina, from your standpoint I can understand.  On the other hand, the OCA has had TWO Metropolitans in a row forced to resign under clouds.  Even after all this, Metropolitan +Jonah has not come clean on why Metropolitans +Herman and +Theodosius were forced to resign and Fr. Robert Kondratick was de-frocked. 

I truly believe that the bishops of both the Orthodox and Catholic Churches must become LEADERS, not managers.  A leader deals with the scandal and makes sure it never happens again and the appropriate offenders are dealt with, while a manager fixes a few things and sweeps the rest under the rug.
"What we need for bishops are LIONS, not rabbits!!!"  --Metropolitan Cyprian of Oropos and Phyle
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Maria on February 25, 2011, 06:58:58 PM
I pray that Mark Stokoe will resign from the Metropolitan Council.

His emotional involvement in these issues make his website unreliable and a cause of much harm to the Holy Church.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on February 25, 2011, 08:43:41 PM
Metropolitan Jonah seems like a really great guy to me. I hope everything it alright.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Shiny on February 25, 2011, 09:03:45 PM
Metropolitan Jonah seems like a really great guy to me. I hope everything it alright.

My thoughts exactly. I love reading his works.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: xariskai on February 25, 2011, 09:52:54 PM
Metropolitan Jonah of the OCA Resigns? (http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/02/metropolitan-jonah-of-oca-resigns.html) (John Sanidopoulos/Mystagogy)
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on February 25, 2011, 10:07:18 PM
Metropolitan Jonah of the OCA Resigns? (http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/02/metropolitan-jonah-of-oca-resigns.html) (John Sanidopoulos/Mystagogy)

Official: Metropolitan Jonah on 60-Day Retreat (http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/02/official-metropolitan-jonah-on-60-day.html) (John Sanidopoulos/Mystagogy)
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Fr. Deacon Daniel on February 25, 2011, 10:46:20 PM
Met. Jonah takes a 2 month leave and the chancellor is fired at the same time... Sounds a bit fishy. I hope no scandal comes out of this.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: ialmisry on February 25, 2011, 11:11:17 PM
Met. Jonah takes a 2 month leave and the chancellor is fired at the same time... Sounds a bit fishy. I hope no scandal comes out of this.
The timing isn't coincidental, but there is no scandal involved. Trust me on that.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Quinault on February 25, 2011, 11:15:42 PM
Met. +Jonah really jumped into a fire if you recall. He was just the abbot of a wonderful monastry in CA, then a Bishop and then very shortly thereafter elevated to Metropolitan. I imagine that he needs a break. I will pray for him and assume there is no impropriety until there is a formal announcement. We should assume the best, not the worse in cases like this. Let's make sure that we don't end up turning our speculations into gossip.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Bigsinner on February 25, 2011, 11:53:40 PM
Well said Quinault.  Absent any reliable uncontroverted evidence to the contrary, our default position should be to assume the best, not the worst.  We should pray for Met. Jonah and the OCA.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: dilios on February 26, 2011, 12:40:43 AM
Well said Quinault.  Absent any reliable uncontroverted evidence to the contrary, our default position should be to assume the best, not the worst.  We should pray for Met. Jonah and the OCA.

There is nothing to assume... Met Jonah exercised poor judgment right from the beginning concerning Patriarch Bartholomew, Russian church and the rest of orthodoxy. His carelessness of handling even some simple issues has proven to be a problem in the end. I am sure the rest of the bishops were just fed up with it. It is true, we do have to pray for him.  :( $0.02
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: augustin717 on February 26, 2011, 12:44:52 AM
Comm'on it's childish to assume there is nothing more to it than the official communique of the OCA says. It always starts with a spiritual retreat ;)
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Basil 320 on February 26, 2011, 12:48:37 AM
There is no indication that there was any impropriety involved in Metropolitan Jonah's leave of absence.  But with the manner in which OCANews reported it as a forced leave, versus the OCA's reporting it as a requested leave, I wonder if the Synod is within its authority to force a leave of absence, and probably a resignation later, if there were no allegations of canonical impropriety, which no one is reporting or even speculating occurred.  Metropolitan Jonah's problems with the Holy Synod and the Metropolitan Council seems to be his appearant lack of support for the OCA's administrative processes which are mostly required by their statutes.  Can the OCA's Holy Synod force a resignation of its first hierarch for the disagreements he's been having with the administrative organs of the church?  

Also, it seems very wrong to dismiss Fr. Alexander, whose reputation is one of an exemplary clergyman and a proficient chancellor.

Finally, isn't it an anomaly to have the Temporary Administrator being a hierarch who is actively engaged in discussions with the Church of Romania that could result in his being responsible for transferring his association away from the OCA?
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Iconodule on February 26, 2011, 12:49:00 AM
There is nothing to assume...

Then you said:

Quote
I am sure the rest of the bishops were just fed up with it.

Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Pravoslavbob on February 26, 2011, 12:50:07 AM
The part about the inaction and lack of following proper procedure of the OCA consistory as a whole dealing with problems of sexual abuse is true and has upset many.  Especially involving the upcoming court case of suspended Archbishop Seraphim in Winnipeg.
let's hope that in the future, delays and other mistakes will not be made.
Fixed quote box, nothing more - Fr. George, GM

It seems to me, judging from your posting history, that you and another poster have an agenda to discredit the OCA. So I take your remarks here and your previous comments on other threads aimed at Archbishop Seraphim (who has not been found guilty of anything, whom I have known personally for over 25 years, and whom I know is innocent of the charges against him) to be nothing more than vicious slander. I have done my very best to remain quite about this matter until now, since it is before an ecclesiastical commission and civil courts and it is important for the entire truth to come out, but since you are not remaining silent, neither shall I.  
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: dilios on February 26, 2011, 12:59:26 AM
There is nothing to assume...

Then you said:

Quote
I am sure the rest of the bishops were just fed up with it.



 ???

Is there a problem with using words such as assume and sure? If it is, each word carries a different meaning...
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: augustin717 on February 26, 2011, 01:05:05 AM
Quote
Finally, isn't it an anomaly to have the Temporary Administrator being a hierarch who is actively engaged in discussions with the Church of Romania that could result in his being responsible for transferring his association away from the OCA?
Maybe he's gonna bring the OCA under Romanian jurisdiction. The patriarch Daniel wouldn't mind it probably, as he is in serious need of cash at the moment, in order to fund the building of a pharaonic cathedral ;D
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Iconodule on February 26, 2011, 01:07:02 AM
There is nothing to assume...

Then you said:

Quote
I am sure the rest of the bishops were just fed up with it.



 ???

Is there a problem with using words such as assume and sure? If it is, each word carries a different meaning...

I just looked at your past posts and every one of them is devoted to denigrating the OCA. Go away.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Maria on February 26, 2011, 02:13:16 AM
Lord have mercy on us and save us.

Let us pray for the clergy and laity of the Orthodox Church that we may be saved.

Let us pray especially for Metropolitan Jonah who had to deal with several disagreeable persons on the Metropolitan Council including Mark Stokoe. The OCA leadership (laity and clergy) needs a spiritual renewal. I pray that Met. Jonah will come back refreshed from his retreat.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: ialmisry on February 26, 2011, 02:19:58 AM
The part about the inaction and lack of following proper procedure of the OCA consistory as a whole dealing with problems of sexual abuse is true and has upset many.  Especially involving the upcoming court case of suspended Archbishop Seraphim in Winnipeg.
let's hope that in the future, delays and other mistakes will not be made.
Fixed quote box, nothing more - Fr. George, GM

It seems to me, judging from your posting history, that you and another poster have an agenda to discredit the OCA. So I take your remarks here and your previous comments on other threads aimed at Archbishop Seraphim (who has not been found guilty of anything, whom I have known personally for over 25 years, and whom I know is innocent of the charges against him) to be nothing more than vicious slander. I have done my very best to remain quite about this matter until now, since it is before an ecclesiastical commission and civil courts and it is important for the entire truth to come out, but since you are not remaining silent, neither shall I. 


Since you bring it up.....

We who support the OCA are constantly being told how only a minority recognize it, how none of the ancient patriarchates recognize it, how it is not mature, blah, blah, blah..

We are told that North America isn't the only "diaspora," that America isn't that important (I'm aware of all you Canadians, but this particular reproach is usually heaped on the Americans), that it only has money and wealth, blah, blah, blah...

We are told that the OCA isn't the largest jurisdiction, that it isn't the richest jurisdiction (although America's wealth was just depricated), blah, blah, blah...

blah..blah...blah....

but this little incident has shown how OBESSED the Greek Church (and others) are with the OCA. Here in the states I know several of those named personally, some of the insider information of what is going on etc. But I have a life to live, things to do, etc. and don't follow every movement.  But here on the other side of the globe Romfea.org has its ear to the ground in Greece as to what is going on in Syosset.  Google it in Greek, and page after page will come up.

I've looked at several phyletist sites in English, and it seems they are just itching at the keyboard.

It seems odd that for someone so "insignificant" garnaring so much attention across the globe.


My apologies to the many Greeks and others who do not live to see woe on the OCA.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: serb1389 on February 26, 2011, 02:23:31 AM
I pray that Mark Stokoe will resign from the Metropolitan Council.

His emotional involvement in these issues make his website unreliable and a cause of much harm to the Holy Church.

Agreed. 
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: ialmisry on February 26, 2011, 02:30:58 AM
Also, it seems very wrong to dismiss Fr. Alexander, whose reputation is one of an exemplary clergyman and a proficient chancellor.
Indeed! A worthy (adopted) grandson of Abp. John of blessed memory.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: 88Devin12 on February 26, 2011, 05:31:03 AM
Just as a note...

At the last meeting for the Diocese of the Midwest, the Clergy and others expressed to Metropolitan Jonah their personal concern for his wellbeing, especially physically.. They expressed that they don't want to happen to him what happened to blessed Archbishop Job.
Apparently Metropolitan Jonah (at the time) had been ill, and visibly wasn't well.

While that was a few months ago, it may be that being Metropolitan has taken both a physical and spiritual toll on him and he may just need a break.

I honestly respect his decision. Even if he did say something wrong, I personally see it as commendable for him to retreat a little and reflect. He is a monk after all, and was only made Metropolitan 2-3 years ago. Before that, he'd spent 12 years as a monk. 2-3 years as Metropolitan don't erase the 12 years as a monk.

It might just be the case that he feels something is wrong (and I don't mean a scandal) and needs to retreat and reflect.

I honestly wish more Bishops would do the same, especially if something happens where they say something that might be harmful to someone(s). I won't name names, but I'm sure we can all think of them. It'd be good for us to keep this in mind for ourselves. If we hurt someone, we shouldn't go on as if nothing happened. We need to step back, reflect and draw closer to God.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: jnorm888 on February 26, 2011, 05:40:41 AM
Another great example of why rumors on the Internet spread like wildfire - they are hot, fast and burn indiscriminately.

I agree!
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Marc1152 on February 26, 2011, 12:20:58 PM
Just as a note...

At the last meeting for the Diocese of the Midwest, the Clergy and others expressed to Metropolitan Jonah their personal concern for his wellbeing, especially physically.. They expressed that they don't want to happen to him what happened to blessed Archbishop Job.
Apparently Metropolitan Jonah (at the time) had been ill, and visibly wasn't well.

While that was a few months ago, it may be that being Metropolitan has taken both a physical and spiritual toll on him and he may just need a break.

I honestly respect his decision. Even if he did say something wrong, I personally see it as commendable for him to retreat a little and reflect. He is a monk after all, and was only made Metropolitan 2-3 years ago. Before that, he'd spent 12 years as a monk. 2-3 years as Metropolitan don't erase the 12 years as a monk.

It might just be the case that he feels something is wrong (and I don't mean a scandal) and needs to retreat and reflect.

I honestly wish more Bishops would do the same, especially if something happens where they say something that might be harmful to someone(s). I won't name names, but I'm sure we can all think of them. It'd be good for us to keep this in mind for ourselves. If we hurt someone, we shouldn't go on as if nothing happened. We need to step back, reflect and draw closer to God.

This could merely be a health issue. Living in DC we do hear a lot about the Met and the many many commitments he has and his many appearances. He is very busy and... how shall I put this... He is a bit heavy. A legit rest and diet may be in order.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: podkarpatska on February 26, 2011, 01:01:04 PM
As I read these pages, I can't help but think that we try to view our jurisdictional issues as a sporting event. There seems to be the OCA team and the Greek team. The OCA team and its passionate fans view themselves as the plucky, small market team who succeeds in spite of all odds (like the Steelers in football or the Twins in baseball). The Greek team and its supporters are large in number and have access to temporal power and money that the OCA team can only dream about. I suspect that they are viewed as the Yankees (baseball's 'evil empire') or the football Cowboys.

Frankly this is just stupid.

I respect both jurisdictions as I know many fine priests and hierarchs from both and have many friends in both.

I will remember Met. Jonah in my prayers and I will continue to pray for a resolution to the many serious issues which stand in the way of true Orthodox unity in the Americas should that be God's will.

Time to move on....
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Seraphim98 on February 26, 2011, 04:19:15 PM
The whole mess makes me sad.

O God, our help and assistance, who art just and merciful, and who heareth the supplications of thy people; look down upon us, miserable sinners, have mercy upon us.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Orual on February 26, 2011, 05:07:53 PM
Just as a note...

At the last meeting for the Diocese of the Midwest, the Clergy and others expressed to Metropolitan Jonah their personal concern for his wellbeing, especially physically.. They expressed that they don't want to happen to him what happened to blessed Archbishop Job.
Apparently Metropolitan Jonah (at the time) had been ill, and visibly wasn't well.

While that was a few months ago, it may be that being Metropolitan has taken both a physical and spiritual toll on him and he may just need a break.

I honestly respect his decision. Even if he did say something wrong, I personally see it as commendable for him to retreat a little and reflect. He is a monk after all, and was only made Metropolitan 2-3 years ago. Before that, he'd spent 12 years as a monk. 2-3 years as Metropolitan don't erase the 12 years as a monk.

It might just be the case that he feels something is wrong (and I don't mean a scandal) and needs to retreat and reflect.

I honestly wish more Bishops would do the same, especially if something happens where they say something that might be harmful to someone(s). I won't name names, but I'm sure we can all think of them. It'd be good for us to keep this in mind for ourselves. If we hurt someone, we shouldn't go on as if nothing happened. We need to step back, reflect and draw closer to God.

This could merely be a health issue. Living in DC we do hear a lot about the Met and the many many commitments he has and his many appearances. He is very busy and... how shall I put this... He is a bit heavy. A legit rest and diet may be in order.

I hate to say it, but it's true that his weight is likely a part of the problem.  He may not feel free to limit his portions when he's being served food by other people, and it's not easy to diet when you are constantly traveling. 

Others have mentioned that he has looked especially tired, and I wonder if he should be evaluated for sleep apnea.  Sleep apnea is prevalent in people of his size, and it would certainly make him fatigued.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Maria on February 26, 2011, 05:19:40 PM
Lord have mercy.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: augustin717 on February 26, 2011, 05:31:02 PM
I find Voices from Russia to be pretty insightful when it comes to these affairs.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Philothei on February 26, 2011, 06:59:33 PM
I pray that Mark Stokoe will resign from the Metropolitan Council.

His emotional involvement in these issues make his website unreliable and a cause of much harm to the Holy Church.

Agreed. 

Same here too...
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Orthodoc on February 26, 2011, 07:04:51 PM
I find Voices from Russia to be pretty insightful when it comes to these affairs.

So do I.  Terms like 'autocephalous fanaticals' turn me off.  It's like the pot calling the kettle black.  After readinf 'voices from Russia' I was completely turned off by what was contained in the posts.

Orthodoc
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Orthodoc on February 26, 2011, 07:05:55 PM
I pray that Mark Stokoe will resign from the Metropolitan Council.

His emotional involvement in these issues make his website unreliable and a cause of much harm to the Holy Church.

Agreed. 

That makes three of us.

Orthodoc

Same here too...
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: IreneOlinyk on February 26, 2011, 09:16:10 PM
The part about the inaction and lack of following proper procedure of the OCA consistory as a whole dealing with problems of sexual abuse is true and has upset many.  Especially involving the upcoming court case of suspended Archbishop Seraphim in Winnipeg.
let's hope that in the future, delays and other mistakes will not be made.
Fixed quote box, nothing more - Fr. George, GM

It seems to me, judging from your posting history, that you and another poster have an agenda to discredit the OCA. So I take your remarks here and your previous comments on other threads aimed at Archbishop Seraphim (who has not been found guilty of anything, whom I have known personally for over 25 years, and whom I know is innocent of the charges against him) to be nothing more than vicious slander. I have done my very best to remain quite about this matter until now, since it is before an ecclesiastical commission and civil courts and it is important for the entire truth to come out, but since you are not remaining silent, neither shall I.  


This is an irrational statement to say the least.  The trial has not started so no one can “know” what the verdict will be.
The OCA handled the whole problem of Archbishop Seraphim wrongly: the proper procedure is to have a priest or in this case a hierarch step aside while the case is investigated.  Not have him issue a statement that he is taking a leave of absence for health reasons just before the newspapers announce that he is charged with a crime.
As for Metropolitan Jonah, the OCA should be transparent and issue a statement about what is going on not the old lame taking a leave of absence for “reasons of health.”
This has happened in the past, when  Metropolitan Irinei  kept taking leaves from 1974-1977. The same with Metropolitan Theodosius before he retired in 2004. Next Metropolitan Herman asked for a leave of absence which was denied before his retirement and the next election of a metropolitan.  These “leaves of absences” covered up serious problems.
And a lack of transparency is not by any means unique to the OCA.  All of our Orthodox jurisdictions have problems.  But let’s be honest and have transparency in all our Orthodox jurisdictions.

And as far as I know Bishop Irenee (OCA Canada) really does have health problems probably from all the stress.  But he is hanging in there.

Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Pravoslavbob on February 26, 2011, 11:56:50 PM
It seems to me, judging from your posting history, that you and another poster have an agenda to discredit the OCA. So I take your remarks here and your previous comments on other threads aimed at Archbishop Seraphim (who has not been found guilty of anything, whom I have known personally for over 25 years, and whom I know is innocent of the charges against him) to be nothing more than vicious slander. I have done my very best to remain quite about this matter until now, since it is before an ecclesiastical commission and civil courts and it is important for the entire truth to come out, but since you are not remaining silent, neither shall I.  


This is an irrational statement to say the least.  The trial has not started so no one can “know” what the verdict will be.


I am sure of what I know because of intellectual and noetic knowledge.  I don't care if you think it is irrational.  If Orest hadn't insisted on carrying on about this matter, I would have kept silent, as I was from late September last year until today.


The OCA handled the whole problem of Archbishop Seraphim wrongly: the proper procedure is to have a priest or in this case a hierarch step aside while the case is investigated.  Not have him issue a statement that he is taking a leave of absence for health reasons just before the newspapers announce that he is charged with a crime.

Yes, this was handled very badly.   (Just for the sake of clarity and accuracy, Archbishop Seraphim was not actually charged until some time after the announcement that he was stepping aside for health reasons, although speculation that he might be charged made a media splash right after this announcement.)


And a lack of transparency is not by any means unique to the OCA.  All of our Orthodox jurisdictions have problems.  But let’s be honest and have transparency in all our Orthodox jurisdictions.

So nice of you to offer this olive branch.  But a cursory glance at your posts since the Pochaiv icon visited Canada in the autumn of 2009, and the fact that you have reported my last post to the moderators shows that you also are clearly no great friend of the OCA.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Orual on February 27, 2011, 01:40:47 PM
This was posted by the OCA this morning:

http://vimeo.com/20435460

Met. Jonah explains the nature of his retreat in order to quell rumors and innuendo.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Ortho_cat on February 27, 2011, 02:39:03 PM
^thanks for posting.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Fr. George on February 27, 2011, 03:07:58 PM
This was posted by the OCA this morning:

http://vimeo.com/20435460

Met. Jonah explains the nature of his retreat in order to quell rumors and innuendo.

Thank you for this.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Monk Vasyl on February 27, 2011, 04:14:08 PM
This was posted by the OCA this morning:

http://vimeo.com/20435460

Met. Jonah explains the nature of his retreat in order to quell rumors and innuendo.

If this doesn't stop the rumors, nothing will.  I remembered Met. Jonah and the OCA during the Litany of Frevent Supplication.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Melodist on February 27, 2011, 05:55:18 PM
We commemorated Met Jonah as Metropolitan this morning in the liturgy.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: grovny on February 27, 2011, 07:16:51 PM
I pray that Mark Stokoe will resign from the Metropolitan Council.

His emotional involvement in these issues make his website unreliable and a cause of much harm to the Holy Church.

Agreed. 

That makes three of us.

Orthodoc

Same here too...

I made the mistake of reading what Mr. Stokoe posted.  Except that I learned first hand that you can't believe everything you read.

I was at the Oratorio of Met. Hilarion in Dallas, stayed for the reception following, received a blessing from Metropolitan Hilarion just before he left to catch a flight, then later chatted with his Beatitude Jonah.  So Mr. Stokoe's information about Met. Jonah erupting and leaving Met. Hilarion in Dallas, with the subsequent confusion on the part of Met. Hilarion about it, is patently false unless I chatted with his beatitude's identical twin.

It leaves me questioning everything else on Mr. Stokoe's site, and I think it not beneficial for my own peace of mind to read that stuff.

I am very glad Metropolitan Jonah is taking a break, and pray that he'll be refreshed.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: prophetessanna on February 27, 2011, 07:22:58 PM
I will remember Met. Jonah in my prayers and I will continue to pray for a resolution to the many serious issues which stand in the way of true Orthodox unity in the Americas should that be God's will.

Time to move on....
[/quote]


Thank you.  Our Liturgy (OCA, Sacramento, CA) this morning included prayers at the usual places in the rubrics for our Metropolitan, so he has not resigned nor has he been deposed.
We even had a parish wide mini-council on property build-out, and there was not even a question on the Metropolitan's status -- or about our Bishop, who has been mentioned unkindly on those muckraking web sites.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on February 27, 2011, 08:19:29 PM
I find Voices from Russia to be pretty insightful when it comes to these affairs.

So do I.  Terms like 'autocephalous fanaticals' turn me off.  It's like the pot calling the kettle black.  After readinf 'voices from Russia' I was completely turned off by what was contained in the posts.

Orthodoc

Yes; pure venom and so much one-sided that you could take everything he/she says and turn it on its head to arrive at a good approximation of the true situation. Rather like the "good old days" when we did this with Pravda.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Maria on February 27, 2011, 08:30:14 PM
Somehow my download was corrupted. I tried to download it three times and at the same place it malfunctioned when it talked about preparing for Great Lent.

Could someone kindly give me a synopsis?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Maria on February 27, 2011, 08:31:36 PM
I find Voices from Russia to be pretty insightful when it comes to these affairs.

So do I.  Terms like 'autocephalous fanaticals' turn me off.  It's like the pot calling the kettle black.  After readinf 'voices from Russia' I was completely turned off by what was contained in the posts.

Orthodoc

Yes; pure venom and so much one-sided that you could take everything he/she says and turn it on its head to arrive at a good approximation of the true situation. Rather like the "good old days" when we did this with Pravda.

Have you ever read The Dark is Rising by Susan Cooper? Makes you wonder what side Mark Stokoe is on.

If gossip harms the Holy Church, then is it not of the Light.

Let us pray for Metropolitan Jonah and Mark Stokoe that they may be saved.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Maria on February 27, 2011, 09:18:44 PM
This is a transcription of Metropolitan Jonah's Lenten Sermon that a friend gave to me:

Quote
Dearly Beloved in Christ,

I greet you with the feast of the Last Judgment as we prepare ourselves for the Great and Holy Lenten Fast.

It is with sadness today that I address you, not because of the content of what I have to say, but because of the manner in which it needs to be said. As many of you know, in line with the longstanding tradition in the church of an intensified prayer life during Lent, I as a diocesan bishop, requested from my brothers on the Holy Synod to set aside a period of time for myself during the Great Fast to spend in personal reflection and renewal. Due to the complexity of my work and travel schedule since my becoming Metropolitan, this will be the first extended period of rest that I have taken in quite some time. I am extremely grateful to my brothers for granting me this request, and for taking on the burden of added responsibility to their already busy schedules: Bishop Tikhon is now the locum tenens of the Diocese of the Midwest, and Bishop Nikon is now the locum tenens of the Diocese of the South.

I had intended, and still plan on doing so, to rest as much as possible during the Great Fast, spending time with loved ones and celebrating and attending the Divine Services at my Primatial Cathedral of St Nicholas in Washington.

However, due to inaccurate reporting on the Internet stating that I had been deposed, that I had resigned, that I am on a leave of absence, rumors that have spread worldwide and have caused great concern among many. I owe you the faithful of this diocese clarification of the facts.

I am still your Metropolitan. I am still your diocesan bishop. I am still the active primate of the Orthodox Church in America. The reports are not true. I am merely taking a retreat, a time for reflection.

I have requested a time of rest. In line with the Holy Canons, the Statute of the Orthodox Church in America, and the good order of the church, no major decisions will be made without my knowledge and consent. His Eminence, Archbishop Nathaniel will be assisting the officers of the church in day-to-day operations. His Grace, Bishop Melchisadek has been kind enough to offer his support in the role of interim Chancellor of the OCA. In line with the statute of the OCA, I am postponing the official spring meetings of the Holy Synod and the Metropolitan Council until the period of time after Pascha. The members of the Holy Synod of Bishops of the Orthodox Church in America have been informed of this postponement.

As the Lord said in the midst of His disciples, “Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you… Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.” I love you, I thank you for your continued support and prayers, and look forward to celebrating the Great and Holy Fast with you as we make the journey to the Pascha of Our Lord. Now, let us forget about what lies behind and push forward to lies ahead.

Editing to add the link provided below: https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=113623668714840&id=134925193236272

Thanks to TE for providing the link.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: TheodoraElizabeth3 on February 27, 2011, 09:22:17 PM
Somehow my download was corrupted. I tried to download it three times and at the same place it malfunctioned when it talked about preparing for Great Lent.

Could someone kindly give me a synopsis?

Thanks.

The below was posted on the public FB page of St. Nicholas Cathedral in DC (the Metropolitan's cathedral).

If you are on Facebook, the link to the page with this text is https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=113623668714840&id=134925193236272 (https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=113623668714840&id=134925193236272)

You have to have a Facebook account in order to view the transcript of the Metropolitan's talk, which is why I am providing the entire text, rather than just the link. It is not yet on the cathedral's website.

Edited to add: I had just posted the text of the Metropolitan's talk but then removed it when I saw the previous poster just above me had posted it. Leaving links to source in my post for verification of where it came from.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Maria on February 27, 2011, 09:31:13 PM
Somehow my download was corrupted. I tried to download it three times and at the same place it malfunctioned when it talked about preparing for Great Lent.

Could someone kindly give me a synopsis?

Thanks.

The below was posted on the public FB page of St. Nicholas Cathedral in DC (the Metropolitan's cathedral).

If you are on Facebook, the link to the page with this text is https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=113623668714840&id=134925193236272 (https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=113623668714840&id=134925193236272)

You have to have a Facebook account in order to view the transcript of the Metropolitan's talk, which is why I am providing the entire text, rather than just the link. It is not yet on the cathedral's website.

Edited to add: I had just posted the text of the Metropolitan's talk but then removed it when I saw the previous poster just above me had posted it. Leaving links to source in my post for verification of where it came from.

Thank you so very much for posting that link.

My friend did not post the link or I would have included it.

Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on February 28, 2011, 12:13:38 AM
I find Voices from Russia to be pretty insightful when it comes to these affairs.

So do I.  Terms like 'autocephalous fanaticals' turn me off.  It's like the pot calling the kettle black.  After readinf 'voices from Russia' I was completely turned off by what was contained in the posts.

Orthodoc

Yes; pure venom and so much one-sided that you could take everything he/she says and turn it on its head to arrive at a good approximation of the true situation. Rather like the "good old days" when we did this with Pravda.

Have you ever read The Dark is Rising by Susan Cooper? Makes you wonder what side Mark Stokoe is on.

If gossip harms the Holy Church, then is it not of the Light.

Let us pray for Metropolitan Jonah and Mark Stokoe that they may be saved.

One of my favorite series of books!

Regarding gossip, I think it is bad no matter if it harms the Church or not (nothing good can come out of it anyway). However, we should distinguish between reported information that is incomplete or even wrong and information that is published maliciously. Voices from Russia seems to fall into the second category. OCA News, on the other hand, has been by and large a fairly decent news source that has been proven over time to be correct in the vast majority of times. It seems to me that blaming OCA News and Mark Stokoe is akin to shooting the messenger. Now, there may be a case for keeping most folks in the dark "for the good of the Church," but that never works out in the long run. As a fairly regular contributor, I was dismayed to encounter greatly negative feelings against the Metropolitan on OCA News and I posted in favor of the Metropolitan. However, I have slowly started to realize that Metropolitan Jonah has some chinks in his armor--more about leadership style than anything else.  I very much hope and pray that he will come out of his retreat refreshed and ready to assume his role as the Metropolitan of a conciliar OCA that functions in accordance with Canon 34 and her own statutes, policies and procedures.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: admiralnick on February 28, 2011, 11:02:41 AM
Just a small note on take a "time of rest". The Bishop's job is to lead the church and be the spiritual guide for all of us. You can't take a break from being the leader, you need to lead even when you are not leading. If that means canceling retreats or appearances or lectures or whatever, then that needs to be done. Did Christ take a time of rest? Did the Apostles? Did the Fathers? How about the multitude of Saints? Did John Chrysostom just stop writing for a couple months? I think the idea of the spiritual head of the OCA taking a time of rest really needs to be viewed in a critical light. Just my opinion of course.

-Nick
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Schultz on February 28, 2011, 11:26:19 AM
Just a small note on take a "time of rest". The Bishop's job is to lead the church and be the spiritual guide for all of us. You can't take a break from being the leader, you need to lead even when you are not leading. If that means canceling retreats or appearances or lectures or whatever, then that needs to be done. Did Christ take a time of rest? Did the Apostles? Did the Fathers? How about the multitude of Saints? Did John Chrysostom just stop writing for a couple months? I think the idea of the spiritual head of the OCA taking a time of rest really needs to be viewed in a critical light. Just my opinion of course.

-Nick

Christ took time to go and pray by Himself multiple times in the Gospels, and let's not forget the 40 days and nights he spent in the desert preparing for His ministry.

IIRC, there are also rather well spelled out guidelines in the OCA statues, as well as other local churches, for these eventualities.

I hope the people who are whining and moaning about a man who needs a break and has taken the legal steps to see that the Church is in capable hands are as diligent and vigilant about their own spiritual and temporal well being as they are about man whose job is incredible.

Just my opinion, of course.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: admiralnick on February 28, 2011, 12:17:45 PM
Just a small note on take a "time of rest". The Bishop's job is to lead the church and be the spiritual guide for all of us. You can't take a break from being the leader, you need to lead even when you are not leading. If that means canceling retreats or appearances or lectures or whatever, then that needs to be done. Did Christ take a time of rest? Did the Apostles? Did the Fathers? How about the multitude of Saints? Did John Chrysostom just stop writing for a couple months? I think the idea of the spiritual head of the OCA taking a time of rest really needs to be viewed in a critical light. Just my opinion of course.

-Nick

Christ took time to go and pray by Himself multiple times in the Gospels, and let's not forget the 40 days and nights he spent in the desert preparing for His ministry.

IIRC, there are also rather well spelled out guidelines in the OCA statues, as well as other local churches, for these eventualities.

I hope the people who are whining and moaning about a man who needs a break and has taken the legal steps to see that the Church is in capable hands are as diligent and vigilant about their own spiritual and temporal well being as they are about man whose job is incredible.

Just my opinion, of course.


Okay, touche about Christ taking a leave. The 40 days does qualify as a leave. Taking time out to pray alone, however, does not qualify as a leave. Everyone takes time out alone to pray even if only for a couple of seconds. Sufficient length of time taken out performing no duties of the office, that's an entirely different story.

As far as your comment about people whining and moaning, whether or not others are dilligent and vigilant is none of your concern. Unless of course you intend to "gossip" on the internet.

-Nick
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: admiralnick on February 28, 2011, 12:26:20 PM
Just a note in response to the OCA statutes. I looked over them just now there is nothing relating to taking a leave of absence of the Metropolitan.

-Nick
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Orual on February 28, 2011, 12:31:10 PM
Just a small note on take a "time of rest". The Bishop's job is to lead the church and be the spiritual guide for all of us. You can't take a break from being the leader, you need to lead even when you are not leading. If that means canceling retreats or appearances or lectures or whatever, then that needs to be done. Did Christ take a time of rest? Did the Apostles? Did the Fathers? How about the multitude of Saints? Did John Chrysostom just stop writing for a couple months? I think the idea of the spiritual head of the OCA taking a time of rest really needs to be viewed in a critical light. Just my opinion of course.

-Nick

Christ took time to go and pray by Himself multiple times in the Gospels, and let's not forget the 40 days and nights he spent in the desert preparing for His ministry.

IIRC, there are also rather well spelled out guidelines in the OCA statues, as well as other local churches, for these eventualities.

I hope the people who are whining and moaning about a man who needs a break and has taken the legal steps to see that the Church is in capable hands are as diligent and vigilant about their own spiritual and temporal well being as they are about man whose job is incredible.

Just my opinion, of course.


Schultz, what happened to that Obama-style portrait you had of Met. Jonah that said "AXIOS"?  I loved that.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Orual on February 28, 2011, 12:32:55 PM
Just a note in response to the OCA statutes. I looked over them just now there is nothing relating to taking a leave of absence of the Metropolitan.

-Nick

That's because he's not on a leave of absence, he's on vacation.  Where in the OCA statute does it say "Metropolitans must be worked to death"?

Would you say Christ's passion is incomplete because he didn't carry his own cross the whole way to Golgotha?
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: KBN1 on February 28, 2011, 12:39:56 PM
I think an exhausted and not terribly healthy bishop taking a break is better than an exhausted and not terribly healthy bishop not taking a break.  The Holy Synod has come to the conclusion that the situation wasn't working and they needed a new plan to get on course.  I know all too well how easy it is to get caught up in pride and conflict with people who are close to you.  I don't have any expectation that bishops and church leaders should never find themselves in those situations.  My expectation is that when they find themselves there that they would stop and step back and work to reconcile and redeem that situation.  I pray that is precisely what is being done.  
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: ialmisry on February 28, 2011, 12:53:48 PM
Just a small note on take a "time of rest". The Bishop's job is to lead the church and be the spiritual guide for all of us. You can't take a break from being the leader, you need to lead even when you are not leading. If that means canceling retreats or appearances or lectures or whatever, then that needs to be done. Did Christ take a time of rest? Did the Apostles? Did the Fathers? How about the multitude of Saints? Did John Chrysostom just stop writing for a couple months? I think the idea of the spiritual head of the OCA taking a time of rest really needs to be viewed in a critical light. Just my opinion of course.

-Nick
Usually how this was handled was a coadjutor bishop was appointed (although the implication of heir apparent was banned by canons).  His Beatitude never struck me as particularly robust and healthy, and he went from being in one place to running all around his Church (his terriotory is far larger than any except Russia's, and all modern Patriarchs and primates of that Church have been bishops for some time before assuming the top spot) , not to mention across the globe.

In this case, I don't think it is just a matter of rest, and that is not just my opinion. There are a number of personality conflicts involved (not that anyone is to blame, sometimes it just works out that way), and now, with the Chambesy meeting collapsing in large part over disagreement over the OCA, a whole new series of nonsense to deal with.  A period of Met. Jonah not being in the center of it might be good.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Irish_Melkite on February 28, 2011, 12:55:55 PM
I think an exhausted and not terribly healthy bishop taking a break is better than an exhausted and not terribly healthy bishop not taking a break.  The Holy Synod has come to the conclusion that the situation wasn't working and they needed a new plan to get on course.  I know all too well how easy it is to get caught up in pride and conflict with people who are close to you.  I don't have any expectation that bishops and church leaders should never find themselves in those situations.  My expectation is that when they find themselves there that they would stop and step back and work to reconcile and redeem that situation.  I pray that is precisely what is being done.  

Better the good Metropolitan gets some rest, prayer and reflection rather than having a heart attack, nervous breakdown, a stroke or some other debilitating illness.  As for this crazy idea that hierarchs cannot take a break, throughout Church history, hierarchs have been known to go on short or long retreats and breaks.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: mike on February 28, 2011, 12:59:08 PM
He works despite his leave: http://byztex.blogspot.com/2011/02/met-christopher-of-czech-lands-visits.html
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: ialmisry on February 28, 2011, 01:04:07 PM
I think an exhausted and not terribly healthy bishop taking a break is better than an exhausted and not terribly healthy bishop not taking a break.  The Holy Synod has come to the conclusion that the situation wasn't working and they needed a new plan to get on course.  I know all too well how easy it is to get caught up in pride and conflict with people who are close to you.  I don't have any expectation that bishops and church leaders should never find themselves in those situations.  My expectation is that when they find themselves there that they would stop and step back and work to reconcile and redeem that situation.  I pray that is precisely what is being done.  

Better the good Metropolitan gets some rest, prayer and reflection rather than having a heart attack, nervous breakdown, a stroke or some other debilitating illness.  As for this crazy idea that hierarchs cannot take a break, throughout Church history, hierarchs have been known to go on short or long retreats and breaks.
or otherwise worked to death. I'll vote for the former option.  If he was fiddling while Rome burned, that would be one thing.  I don't think manning the front lines right now would be a good idea.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on February 28, 2011, 01:05:45 PM
Just a small note on take a "time of rest". The Bishop's job is to lead the church and be the spiritual guide for all of us. You can't take a break from being the leader, you need to lead even when you are not leading. If that means canceling retreats or appearances or lectures or whatever, then that needs to be done. Did Christ take a time of rest? Did the Apostles? Did the Fathers? How about the multitude of Saints? Did John Chrysostom just stop writing for a couple months? I think the idea of the spiritual head of the OCA taking a time of rest really needs to be viewed in a critical light. Just my opinion of course.

-Nick

In this case, I don't think it is just a matter of rest, and that is not just my opinion. There are a number of personality conflicts involved (not that anyone is to blame, sometimes it just works out that way), and now, with the Chambesy meeting collapsing in large part over disagreement over the OCA, a whole new series of nonsense to deal with.  A period of Met. Jonah not being in the center of it might be good.

I wonder how much of this was a result of the Metropolitan of the OCA acting as a diocesan outside the boundaries of his diocese, that is, in matters affecting the entire local church? I am referring to the bedrock of our ecclesiology, Canon 34, that allows diocesans a free hand except for matters of consequence/importance, but restricts the Metropolitan bishop from doing anything that would affect the church without the consent of all of his fellow diocesans. It may be that some diocesans are perfectly happy to cede their authority to the Metropolitan, or a Metropolitan forgets his assigned role and starts acting without consensus--nether situation is right or healthy.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on February 28, 2011, 01:06:27 PM
This was posted by the OCA this morning:

http://vimeo.com/20435460

Met. Jonah explains the nature of his retreat in order to quell rumors and innuendo.

Thanks for posting this!  :)

On a side note (for anyone to answer if you can);  What does the lectern say and why is it in Russian?  Is his Eminence +JONAH in Russia?  If he's in America, why isn't it in English?  
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on February 28, 2011, 01:09:27 PM
This was posted by the OCA this morning:

http://vimeo.com/20435460

Met. Jonah explains the nature of his retreat in order to quell rumors and innuendo.

Thanks for posting this!  :)

On a side note (for anyone to answer if you can);  What does the lectern say and why is it in Russian?  Is his Eminence +JONAH in Russia?  If he's in America, why isn't it in English?  

It says "Let us attend" in Russian or Church Slavonic. More than likely it is there because some parishioner long time ago donated the lectern and the priest does not want to hurt anyone's feelings over a matter of little consequence.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Orual on February 28, 2011, 01:26:41 PM
He works despite his leave: http://byztex.blogspot.com/2011/02/met-christopher-of-czech-lands-visits.html

"...they were invited to the Archbishop’s private quarters for an informal tea where they had the possibility to share in conversation on a wide range of topics of mutual interest."

That's the most adorable sentence I've ever read in my whole life.   :D  They had tea and a conversation!  It's like they are noting strikingly human-like behavior among cyborgs or chimpanzees.  The bishops are becoming more human-like all the time; soon they will be indistinguishable!
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on February 28, 2011, 01:28:13 PM
This was posted by the OCA this morning:

http://vimeo.com/20435460

Met. Jonah explains the nature of his retreat in order to quell rumors and innuendo.

Thanks for posting this!  :)

On a side note (for anyone to answer if you can);  What does the lectern say and why is it in Russian?  Is his Eminence +JONAH in Russia?  If he's in America, why isn't it in English?  

It says "Let us attend" in Russian or Church Slavonic.

... a matter of little consequence.
I completely agree.  اذا الرعاية الخاصة التي يمكن للناس ان يفهموا ماذا يجري? وقال إن أيا من الاعمال التي يجب لمجرد الخوض في الاقتراحات دون محاولة فهم.  :)



Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: admiralnick on February 28, 2011, 01:37:46 PM
Just a note in response to the OCA statutes. I looked over them just now there is nothing relating to taking a leave of absence of the Metropolitan.

-Nick

That's because he's not on a leave of absence, he's on vacation.  Where in the OCA statute does it say "Metropolitans must be worked to death"?

Would you say Christ's passion is incomplete because he didn't carry his own cross the whole way to Golgotha?

The OCA statutes comment was in response to Schultz's IIRC about there being something written in the statutes for such eventualities. I was merely pointing out that no such language exists.

Linking the passion of Christ to a Metropolitan taking a break is a tough comparison even in a liberal sense.

-Nick
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Orual on February 28, 2011, 01:41:55 PM
Just a note in response to the OCA statutes. I looked over them just now there is nothing relating to taking a leave of absence of the Metropolitan.

-Nick

That's because he's not on a leave of absence, he's on vacation.  Where in the OCA statute does it say "Metropolitans must be worked to death"?

Would you say Christ's passion is incomplete because he didn't carry his own cross the whole way to Golgotha?

The OCA statutes comment was in response to Schultz's IIRC about there being something written in the statutes for such eventualities. I was merely pointing out that no such language exists.

Linking the passion of Christ to a Metropolitan taking a break is a tough comparison even in a liberal sense.

-Nick

Is it really a tough comparison?  Our place in life and our individual struggles are often referred to as our cross.  Metropolitan Jonah has been carrying his cross for two years.  How is his stumbling from exhaustion different from the Lord doing the same?
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Marc1152 on February 28, 2011, 01:43:50 PM
Just a small note on take a "time of rest". The Bishop's job is to lead the church and be the spiritual guide for all of us. You can't take a break from being the leader, you need to lead even when you are not leading. If that means canceling retreats or appearances or lectures or whatever, then that needs to be done. Did Christ take a time of rest? Did the Apostles? Did the Fathers? How about the multitude of Saints? Did John Chrysostom just stop writing for a couple months? I think the idea of the spiritual head of the OCA taking a time of rest really needs to be viewed in a critical light. Just my opinion of course.

-Nick

I wonder if any of them had sleep apnia?  :)

I also like the image of the devoted servent of God working himself to death.. In reality, we need to make sure our Priests and Bishops take care of themselves.

Civil War Generals would get harshly reprimanded if they exposed themselves to enemy fire. They were  far more valuable alive.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: admiralnick on February 28, 2011, 01:50:48 PM
Just a note in response to the OCA statutes. I looked over them just now there is nothing relating to taking a leave of absence of the Metropolitan.

-Nick

That's because he's not on a leave of absence, he's on vacation.  Where in the OCA statute does it say "Metropolitans must be worked to death"?

Would you say Christ's passion is incomplete because he didn't carry his own cross the whole way to Golgotha?

The OCA statutes comment was in response to Schultz's IIRC about there being something written in the statutes for such eventualities. I was merely pointing out that no such language exists.

Linking the passion of Christ to a Metropolitan taking a break is a tough comparison even in a liberal sense.

-Nick

Is it really a tough comparison?  Our place in life and our individual struggles are often referred to as our cross.  Metropolitan Jonah has been carrying his cross for two years.  How is his stumbling from exhaustion different from the Lord doing the same?

Yes, it is a tough comparison. I don't remember Archbishop Job of thrice blessed memory taking a break and he has the largest diocese (number of churches) in the OCA. He was head of the Diocese of the Midwest for 17 years........


-Nick
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Orual on February 28, 2011, 01:59:58 PM
Just a note in response to the OCA statutes. I looked over them just now there is nothing relating to taking a leave of absence of the Metropolitan.

-Nick

That's because he's not on a leave of absence, he's on vacation.  Where in the OCA statute does it say "Metropolitans must be worked to death"?

Would you say Christ's passion is incomplete because he didn't carry his own cross the whole way to Golgotha?

The OCA statutes comment was in response to Schultz's IIRC about there being something written in the statutes for such eventualities. I was merely pointing out that no such language exists.

Linking the passion of Christ to a Metropolitan taking a break is a tough comparison even in a liberal sense.

-Nick

Is it really a tough comparison?  Our place in life and our individual struggles are often referred to as our cross.  Metropolitan Jonah has been carrying his cross for two years.  How is his stumbling from exhaustion different from the Lord doing the same?

Yes, it is a tough comparison. I don't remember Archbishop Job of thrice blessed memory taking a break and he has the largest diocese (number of churches) in the OCA. He was head of the Diocese of the Midwest for 17 years........


-Nick

It's funny that you mention that, because if Archbishop Job *had* been able to take a break for his health, he would almost certainly still be alive.

Archbishop Job gone to a diocesan meeting a few days before he ultimately died, and they begged him to see a doctor.  He put it off because he felt he had to keep working, that he couldn't take time off to recover from his pneumonia.  He spent his last night on earth gasping for breath in a recliner, hoping to make it back to Chicago so he could see a doctor at home.  Instead, Archbishop Job died alone and cold in a snowy parking lot.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Schultz on February 28, 2011, 02:40:29 PM
Just a small note on take a "time of rest". The Bishop's job is to lead the church and be the spiritual guide for all of us. You can't take a break from being the leader, you need to lead even when you are not leading. If that means canceling retreats or appearances or lectures or whatever, then that needs to be done. Did Christ take a time of rest? Did the Apostles? Did the Fathers? How about the multitude of Saints? Did John Chrysostom just stop writing for a couple months? I think the idea of the spiritual head of the OCA taking a time of rest really needs to be viewed in a critical light. Just my opinion of course.

-Nick



Christ took time to go and pray by Himself multiple times in the Gospels, and let's not forget the 40 days and nights he spent in the desert preparing for His ministry.

IIRC, there are also rather well spelled out guidelines in the OCA statues, as well as other local churches, for these eventualities.

I hope the people who are whining and moaning about a man who needs a break and has taken the legal steps to see that the Church is in capable hands are as diligent and vigilant about their own spiritual and temporal well being as they are about man whose job is incredible.

Just my opinion, of course.


Schultz, what happened to that Obama-style portrait you had of Met. Jonah that said "AXIOS"?  I loved that.


I have it somewhere on my computer at home.  I'll see if I can't locate it again. :)
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: admiralnick on February 28, 2011, 03:42:18 PM
Just a note in response to the OCA statutes. I looked over them just now there is nothing relating to taking a leave of absence of the Metropolitan.

-Nick

That's because he's not on a leave of absence, he's on vacation.  Where in the OCA statute does it say "Metropolitans must be worked to death"?

Would you say Christ's passion is incomplete because he didn't carry his own cross the whole way to Golgotha?

The OCA statutes comment was in response to Schultz's IIRC about there being something written in the statutes for such eventualities. I was merely pointing out that no such language exists.

Linking the passion of Christ to a Metropolitan taking a break is a tough comparison even in a liberal sense.

-Nick

Is it really a tough comparison?  Our place in life and our individual struggles are often referred to as our cross.  Metropolitan Jonah has been carrying his cross for two years.  How is his stumbling from exhaustion different from the Lord doing the same?

Yes, it is a tough comparison. I don't remember Archbishop Job of thrice blessed memory taking a break and he has the largest diocese (number of churches) in the OCA. He was head of the Diocese of the Midwest for 17 years........


-Nick

It's funny that you mention that, because if Archbishop Job *had* been able to take a break for his health, he would almost certainly still be alive.

Archbishop Job gone to a diocesan meeting a few days before he ultimately died, and they begged him to see a doctor.  He put it off because he felt he had to keep working, that he couldn't take time off to recover from his pneumonia.  He spent his last night on earth gasping for breath in a recliner, hoping to make it back to Chicago so he could see a doctor at home.  Instead, Archbishop Job died alone and cold in a snowy parking lot.

When we had St. Alexis choir practice 2 weeks before he went to the Diocesan meeting we told him to go see a doctor and he didn't listen to us. But lets consider it was 17 years..... And it was only a diocesan bishop, not the Metropolitan of the OCA, different office, different standard.

-Nick
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Schultz on February 28, 2011, 03:46:28 PM
Just a note in response to the OCA statutes. I looked over them just now there is nothing relating to taking a leave of absence of the Metropolitan.

-Nick

According to Article 2, Section 7 of the statutes of the OCA.  Note the bolded section:
Quote
The following matters are within the jurisdiction and competence of the Holy Synod:
All matters involving doctrine, canonical order, morals, and liturgical practice;
All canonical matters pertaining to the election and consecration of bishops as provided by Article VI;
The establishment of new dioceses, the definition of diocesan boundaries, and the acceptance of dioceses into the jurisdiction of the Orthodox Church in America;
Transfer of bishops and their retirement in accordance with Article VI, Section 7;
The acceptance of bishops from other jurisdictions;
Bishops' leaves of absence;
Bestowing honors upon bishops;
Examination of annual reports by the Metropolitan and the bishops on the fulfillment of their pastoral duties;
Solution of problems arising in the administration of individual dioceses and requiring the judgment of the entire episcopate;
Determination in all complaints involving bishops;
Acting as Supreme Church Court of Appeals for all matters involving bishops, clergy, and laity in accordance with Article XI, Section 6;
Establishment of general policies in relation to other Orthodox Churches and non-Orthodox religious bodies;
Appointment, upon recommendation by the Metropolitan Council, of the Chancellor, Secretary, Treasurer, and other officials whose competence or service extend beyond the boundaries of a single diocese;
Pastoral supervision over all Church organizations whose activity extends beyond the boundaries of a single diocese;
Appointment of committees on matters belonging to the competence of the Holy Synod;
General supervision over Armed Forces Chaplaincies, with the Metropolitan being particularly and immediately responsible in this field;
Decisions in cases involving non-Orthodox clergymen applying for admission into the Orthodox Church;
Supervision over theological schools;
Establishment of standards required for ordination;
Overseeing the missionary, educational, and social programs of the Church;
Supervision of ecclesiastical arts: architecture, iconography, choral music, and other applied arts.
(source: http://www.oca.org/DOCstatute.asp?SID=12&ID=2)

As His Beatitude noted in his remarks, he requested and obtained a leave of absence from the Holy Synod, as per the statutes.  He may be Metropolitan, but he's still a bishop and has acted accordingly.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: katherineofdixie on February 28, 2011, 04:57:08 PM
Don't forget that, in addition to his duties and responsibilities as Metropolitan, His Beatitude has also been Locum Tenens of the Diocese of the South at the same time.
Admittedly we are a saintly bunch ( :angel:) but these administrative duties no doubt added to his already heavy workload.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Orual on February 28, 2011, 05:12:03 PM
As His Beatitude noted in his remarks, he requested and obtained a leave of absence from the Holy Synod, as per the statutes.  He may be Metropolitan, but he's still a bishop and has acted accordingly.

I think Metropolitan Jonah said that this wasn't even an official leave of absence, just a chance for him to step back from his regular onslaught of duties and travels, so that he could have a little more time to concentrate on his prayer life.  He met with Met. Christopher of the Czech Lands and Slovakia just yesterday.  It's also nice that he doesn't have to be locum tenens of half the vacant dioceses in the country anymore.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Melodist on February 28, 2011, 05:12:53 PM
Don't forget that, in addition to his duties and responsibilities as Metropolitan, His Beatitude has also been Locum Tenens of the Diocese of the South at the same time.
Admittedly we are a saintly bunch ( :angel:) but these administrative duties no doubt added to his already heavy workload.

Also the Diocese of the Midwest.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Robb on February 28, 2011, 06:15:33 PM
Not to cause a stir, but in the light of recent scandals would it not be better for the OCA to accept the oversight of a much larger and more stable jurisdiction, like the MP (Or maybe even ROCOR acting as a representative of Moscow).

Things just don't seem to be getting any better in the OCA and it seems like their credibility is starting to lag amongst the faithful.  An act of bowing to some higher oversight may be the best thing to restore public confidence in this jurisdiction.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on February 28, 2011, 07:12:32 PM
Not to cause a stir, but...

Not to cause offense, but you are...
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Melodist on February 28, 2011, 07:13:26 PM
it seems like their credibility is starting to lag amongst the faithful.

I think this is mostly the case among those who have already put little to no faith in God's ability to lead and guide the OCA.

Interestingly enough, the topic didn't even come up for discussion in my church yesterday. I do know for a fact that if this were a serious issue, or was even enough to catch anyone's attention in our church, our priest would have made it a point to discuss the situation with everyone.

I am thankful to everyone who is praying for the OCA and our hierarchs and especially HB.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Maria on February 28, 2011, 07:16:18 PM
He works despite his leave: http://byztex.blogspot.com/2011/02/met-christopher-of-czech-lands-visits.html

Great picture. Good to see Met. Jonah smiling.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: TheodoraElizabeth3 on February 28, 2011, 07:51:23 PM
Just a small point...

For those who think Archbishop Job of blessed memory didn't get a break - he actually did. The summer before he died, he went to Slovakia for 16 days, a trip he had long wanted to make, as his grandmother had often spoken about it. He mentioned this in his address to the Midwest Diocesan Assembly, less than two months before he died.

It's mentioned on page 7-8 of the below file (from the diocesan website):

http://www.midwestdiocese.org/files/48th%20ASSEMBLY/221-ASSEMBLY-ADDRESS.pdf (http://www.midwestdiocese.org/files/48th%20ASSEMBLY/221-ASSEMBLY-ADDRESS.pdf)

Also, as has been related to me by multiple people who had known Archbishop Job for years, His Eminence severely disliked going to the doctor. Period.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: ialmisry on February 28, 2011, 08:58:05 PM
Not to cause a stir, but in the light of recent scandals would it not be better for the OCA to accept the oversight of a much larger and more stable jurisdiction, like the MP (Or maybe even ROCOR acting as a representative of Moscow).
Russia is a much larger Church, but as a jurisdiction here it is quite small. ROCOR as a whole may be larger, but again as a jurisdiction here, numch smaller than the OCA.

Stability is relative: how many would have said Russia was unstable in 1914?

And problems are never solved by going home to mother.

Quote
Things just don't seem to be getting any better in the OCA and it seems like their credibility is starting to lag amongst the faithful.  An act of bowing to some higher oversight may be the best thing to restore public confidence in this jurisdiction.
because of course the OCA is the only Church to know scandal ::)

The OCA would lose all its credibility with this Faithful if it went to depend on someone else to solve its problems.  If it "bowed," it will lose all credibilty with everyone, and no one will place their confidence in it again.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Fr. George on February 28, 2011, 09:17:41 PM
I'll agree (shock!) with Isa that going under the MP won't necessarily lead to more respect, especially amongst its own people.  Some would go along, and some would go under a different bishop, and some would schism.

The OCA would lose all its credibility with this Faithful if it went to depend on someone else to solve its problems.

I wouldn't make this too big a blanket statement; Cyprus didn't lose credibility, and Jerusalem's wasn't dependent on the move (it either had it or didn't; there don't seem to be too many holding a "middle opinion").
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: ialmisry on February 28, 2011, 09:48:58 PM
I'll agree (shock!) with Isa that going under the MP won't necessarily lead to more respect, especially amongst its own people.  Some would go along, and some would go under a different bishop, and some would schism.

The OCA would lose all its credibility with this Faithful if it went to depend on someone else to solve its problems.

I wouldn't make this too big a blanket statement; Cyprus didn't lose credibility, and Jerusalem's wasn't dependent on the move (it either had it or didn't; there don't seem to be too many holding a "middle opinion").
I'm not sure if I get specifically what you have in mind, Father, about Cyprus and Jerusalem.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Fr. George on February 28, 2011, 10:13:46 PM
I wouldn't make this too big a blanket statement; Cyprus didn't lose credibility, and Jerusalem's wasn't dependent on the move (it either had it or didn't; there don't seem to be too many holding a "middle opinion").
I'm not sure if I get specifically what you have in mind, Father, about Cyprus and Jerusalem.

My point was only that there are indeed circumstances that can/have arisen where seeking help from outside to solve problems is appropriate and proper.  Cyprus and Jerusalem have found themselves in such situations in the past decade, albeit for drastically different circumstances than what we've seen in the OCA recently (well, Cyprus' was drastically different; maybe not Jerusalem).  There may be a situation in the future where the OCA would do well to seek outside help; I agree with you that this is not the time, and Robb's suggestion is not the way.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on February 28, 2011, 11:34:49 PM
I am slightly off topic here but I did not want to start yet another thread.

All this talk about the Metropolitan and not one word about Archpriest Alexander Garklavs, who is as much a man of God, a decent man, a steady and uncompromising leader of the OCA as any clergy man in the history of this Church.

May I remind folks that while the bishops may be the senior officers, the priests and deacons are the ones who make the Church work. The priests, as deputy bishops, and the rest of their congregations are where the true work of the Church happens. For every Hierarchical Divine Liturgy, Vespers, Matins, what have you, there are thousands upon thousands that are led by priests.

I am saddened that there was an apparent conflict of personality between the Metropolitan and the Chancellor. It was the moral and pastoral responsibility of the senior leader to approach the junior one and work things out, as much as it was the responsibility of the junior leader to accomodate the senior. It seems that Father Garklavs was much too honest and straight with the Metropolitan, and perhaps went by the book too much to suit the Metropolitan.

In any case, I am acutely aware that I have come very close to the boundary of gossip. Please consider the foregoing not as fact but strictly as my personal and perhaps wrong opinion. I am not writing this with any motive other than to eulogize the brilliant service of Father Garklavs and to put things in perspective that has been gravely skewed so far.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Orual on March 01, 2011, 01:39:16 AM
I am slightly off topic here but I did not want to start yet another thread.

All this talk about the Metropolitan and not one word about Archpriest Alexander Garklavs, who is as much a man of God, a decent man, a steady and uncompromising leader of the OCA as any clergy man in the history of this Church.

In all honesty, I think most people here just don't know Fr. Alexander Garklavs and can't say one way or the other.  I know what they've written about him on OCA News.  I met him exactly once, and he seemed like a nice enough priest.  He didn't walk on cloven hooves.  But that's about all I can say, and if you'll forgive me, he could use better character witnesses than the Stokoe gang.

Metropolitan Jonah, on the other hand, is someone most people are familiar with, whether they love him or hate him, and the implications of the ... I almost said scandal but I don't think we're quite there, so I'll simply call it the Late Unpleasantness ... reflect more seriously on the metropolitan than anyone else.  I mean, Fr. Alexander Garklavs can find another job, it's not like he's been deposed.  On the other hand, Metropolitan Jonah's options are basically retaining his office or being shut up into a monastery for the rest of his life.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: kijabeboy03 on March 01, 2011, 01:44:59 AM
I can only imagine how the communities of the Midwestern Diocese of the OCA would react with Bishop Peter of Cleveland as their administrator :-). (Given the scenario of the OCA being placed under the ROCOR.)
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: kijabeboy03 on March 01, 2011, 01:48:17 AM
I really enjoyed Metropolitan Jonah's articles while he was abbot of St. John's and I've heard only good about his time there, so should recent events result in his early retirement his return to the Manton Monastery wouldn't be such a dead end I think...
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Orual on March 01, 2011, 03:15:52 AM
I really enjoyed Metropolitan Jonah's articles while he was abbot of St. John's and I've heard only good about his time there, so should recent events result in his early retirement his return to the Manton Monastery wouldn't be such a dead end I think...

St. John's already has another abbot, so that wouldn't be appropriate. 

Anyway, if you believe what they write on the Indiana List, apparently some people hope to send Metropolitan Jonah on a one-way trip to New Mexico, and not to be an abbot.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: kijabeboy03 on March 01, 2011, 03:19:22 AM
From my interactions with Fr. Meletius I would think that he'd be happy to be less in the spotlight (especially in a church always on the lookout for men who would make good bishops :-) ), but then again I haven't been in touch with him recently.

The monastery in New Mexico has certainly struggled to make a go of it for quite some time...
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Orual on March 01, 2011, 03:39:02 AM
From my interactions with Fr. Meletius I would think that he'd be happy to be less in the spotlight (especially in a church always on the lookout for men who would make good bishops :-) ), but then again I haven't been in touch with him recently.

The monastery in New Mexico has certainly struggled to make a go of it for quite some time...

Then maybe they should send Fr. Gerasim there.  That would solve their problem as well as the Alaska problem.  I just don't see how running Metropolitan Jonah out of office is going to do anything but create another leadership crisis that the OCA doesn't need.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: prophetessanna on March 01, 2011, 10:21:08 AM
I really enjoyed Metropolitan Jonah's articles while he was abbot of St. John's and I've heard only good about his time there, so should recent events result in his early retirement his return to the Manton Monastery wouldn't be such a dead end I think...

St. John's already has another abbot, so that wouldn't be appropriate. 

Anyway, if you believe what they write on the Indiana List, apparently some people hope to send Metropolitan Jonah on a one-way trip to New Mexico, and not to be an abbot.

IMHO,  Orthodoxy has the Indiana List because we needed something like Purgatory before we reach Heaven.   :o
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: katherineofdixie on March 01, 2011, 10:23:51 AM
it seems like their credibility is starting to lag amongst the faithful.

I think this is mostly the case among those who have already put little to no faith in God's ability to lead and guide the OCA.
I agree - good point.

Quote
Interestingly enough, the topic didn't even come up for discussion in my church yesterday. I do know for a fact that if this were a serious issue, or was even enough to catch anyone's attention in our church, our priest would have made it a point to discuss the situation with everyone.
The only discussion that I have heard is on fora like this. Our priest did bring it up briefly after the announcements, asking us to pray for His Beatitude.

Quote
I am thankful to everyone who is praying for the OCA and our hierarchs and especially HB.
As are we all!
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: katherineofdixie on March 01, 2011, 10:32:13 AM
It was the moral and pastoral responsibility of the senior leader to approach the junior one and work things out, as much as it was the responsibility of the junior leader to accomodate the senior.
And we don't know that didn't happen. It may or may not. We simply don't know and to assume that it didn't seems to me to be a bit unwarranted at this stage.

Quote
It seems that Father Garklavs was much too honest and straight with the Metropolitan, and perhaps went by the book too much to suit the Metropolitan.
See answer above. We really don't know anything about their interactions or conversations. In any case, someone can truly believe that they are right, honest and operating "by the book" and still be mistaken or misguided. Not saying that this was the case, but we don't know.

Sincere, talented, intelligent people who work together in a common enterprise can still disagree about how to go about accomplishing their goals. I've seen it happen often.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: ialmisry on March 01, 2011, 10:37:03 AM
I am slightly off topic here but I did not want to start yet another thread.

All this talk about the Metropolitan and not one word about Archpriest Alexander Garklavs, who is as much a man of God, a decent man, a steady and uncompromising leader of the OCA as any clergy man in the history of this Church.

May I remind folks that while the bishops may be the senior officers, the priests and deacons are the ones who make the Church work. The priests, as deputy bishops, and the rest of their congregations are where the true work of the Church happens. For every Hierarchical Divine Liturgy, Vespers, Matins, what have you, there are thousands upon thousands that are led by priests.

I am saddened that there was an apparent conflict of personality between the Metropolitan and the Chancellor. It was the moral and pastoral responsibility of the senior leader to approach the junior one and work things out, as much as it was the responsibility of the junior leader to accomodate the senior. It seems that Father Garklavs was much too honest and straight with the Metropolitan, and perhaps went by the book too much to suit the Metropolitan.

In any case, I am acutely aware that I have come very close to the boundary of gossip. Please consider the foregoing not as fact but strictly as my personal and perhaps wrong opinion. I am not writing this with any motive other than to eulogize the brilliant service of Father Garklavs and to put things in perspective that has been gravely skewed so far.

I can only repeat what I've said
Also, it seems very wrong to dismiss Fr. Alexander, whose reputation is one of an exemplary clergyman and a proficient chancellor.
Indeed! A worthy (adopted) grandson of Abp. John of blessed memory.

On that last note:

That's why George converted.

(http://i.tbs.com/v5cache/TBS/Images/Dynamic/i23/seinfeld_episode075_337x233_040420061510.jpg)

It seems the Latvian archbishop sent a letter to Larry David to thank him for bringing their church to light. They never got so many inquiries as after that episode aired. LOL.

Btw, Fr. Alexander Garklavs, the OCA Chancellor, is the (adopted) grandson of the last Metropolitan of Latvia before the Soviet Occupation, Arb. John of Chicago of blessed memory.  His adopted son, Fr. Sergei, btw recalls with greatest fondness (I think he actually said it was his favorite memory of this life) being huddled with the other refugees in Czechoslovakia, one step ahead of communist and nazis, in a barn around the Tikhvin Mother of God, bombs bursting all around them.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: ialmisry on March 01, 2011, 10:52:37 AM
I can only imagine how the communities of the Midwestern Diocese of the OCA would react with Bishop Peter of Cleveland as their administrator :-). (Given the scenario of the OCA being placed under the ROCOR.)
Why would he be bishop (not that the OCA is going under ROCOR)?  Isn't Abp. Alipy still in the Cathedral in Des Plaines, which is 16 miles from Holy Trinity OCA Cathedral (where Fr. Garklavs father served for decades, btw, and his adopted grandfather served as Arrchbishop), a half hour away?
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Orual on March 01, 2011, 11:44:05 AM
I really enjoyed Metropolitan Jonah's articles while he was abbot of St. John's and I've heard only good about his time there, so should recent events result in his early retirement his return to the Manton Monastery wouldn't be such a dead end I think...

St. John's already has another abbot, so that wouldn't be appropriate. 

Anyway, if you believe what they write on the Indiana List, apparently some people hope to send Metropolitan Jonah on a one-way trip to New Mexico, and not to be an abbot.

IMHO,  Orthodoxy has the Indiana List because we needed something like Purgatory before we reach Heaven.   :o

I don't know, I think it's more comparable to a gateway to Dante's Inferno.  "Abandon All Hope, Ye Who Enter Here".

Anyway, Bishop Tikhon posted an email that sort of shed light on some of this.  I don't want to quote it, because it frankly made me want to douse my computer in holy water.  But it's on the Indiana List for anybody to see, under the timestamp "Fri, 25 Feb 2011 18:39:06".
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: kijabeboy03 on March 01, 2011, 12:36:16 PM
Archbishop Alypy was/is a wonderful bishop, but he's been wheelchair bound for a while now (years?) and is unable to lead services or the diocese, so Bishop Peter does both in his capacity as administrator. And Vladyka Peter's got a very direct style of leadership, one no doubt very standard in 19th century Russia ;-). From all I've heard he's a good bishop, but my experiences with him contrast markedly with my interactions with Archbishop Job of blessed memory.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: kijabeboy03 on March 01, 2011, 12:36:58 PM
Fr. Gerasim's such a good man! Provided it works out I think he and Alaska will be a good fit (unlike the last two sent there under Metropolitans Theodosius and Herman).
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Orual on March 01, 2011, 01:52:40 PM
Fr. Gerasim's such a good man! Provided it works out I think he and Alaska will be a good fit (unlike the last two sent there under Metropolitans Theodosius and Herman).

I share your favorable opinion of Fr. Gerasim.  I hope he is able to be consecrated Bishop of Alaska.  However, if things don't work out thanks to the anti-Fr. Gerasim wheelings and dealings going on, my hope is to spare him further pain and harassment, and send him to a place where his talents would be put to good use.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: kijabeboy03 on March 01, 2011, 05:48:09 PM
I know St. Herman's misses him - if he doesn't get elected Bishop of Sitka or of another diocese, then I doubt there'd be any issue with him returning to Platina.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Orual on March 01, 2011, 06:06:44 PM
I know St. Herman's misses him - if he doesn't get elected Bishop of Sitka or of another diocese, then I doubt there'd be any issue with him returning to Platina.

They also have another abbot.  The only reason he went across the country to seminary was so people wouldn't use his lack of seminary education against him in considering him for bishop, even though he's been a priest longer than most of the faculty there.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: katherine 2001 on March 01, 2011, 08:49:18 PM
It was the moral and pastoral responsibility of the senior leader to approach the junior one and work things out, as much as it was the responsibility of the junior leader to accomodate the senior.
And we don't know that didn't happen. It may or may not. We simply don't know and to assume that it didn't seems to me to be a bit unwarranted at this stage.

Quote
It seems that Father Garklavs was much too honest and straight with the Metropolitan, and perhaps went by the book too much to suit the Metropolitan.
See answer above. We really don't know anything about their interactions or conversations. In any case, someone can truly believe that they are right, honest and operating "by the book" and still be mistaken or misguided. Not saying that this was the case, but we don't know.

Sincere, talented, intelligent people who work together in a common enterprise can still disagree about how to go about accomplishing their goals. I've seen it happen often.

My fellow Katherine, I agree with you.  On another forum I post on, another poster said it is clear that the Holy Synod forced +Metropolitan JONAH to take a leave of absence.  I pointed out that it is not really clear that this is what happened.  I pointed out that both +Metropolitan JONAH and the OCA website say that he requested the time off and the Holy Synod granted his request.  I pointed out that none of the people that were present are commenting publicly on what happened--therefore, what is on Mark's site and other places on the internet are technically nothing but hearsay.  
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Melodist on March 01, 2011, 09:17:06 PM
(http://www.squidworks.com/WenbergB/paintings/purple_demon_small.jpg)
Title: Met Jonah IS on the Leave of Absence
Post by: dilios on March 01, 2011, 11:40:33 PM
Not sure why Met Jonah gave such speech in Washington, DC, but this was just posted on the oca website:

http://www.oca.org/news/2438

May be he really needs to see a doctor...
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Irish Hermit on March 02, 2011, 12:59:15 AM

SYOSSET, NY [OCA] -- Upon instruction of the Holy Synod of Bishops,
minutes from the pre-lenten retreat in which they participated
February 22-25, 2011 in Santa Fe, NM are now available in PDF format HERE:

http://www.oca.org/PDF/NEWS/2011/2011-0301-public-minutes-santafe.pdf

Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Orual on March 02, 2011, 01:43:20 AM
I don't really see any damning revelations in those minutes, except that there are a lot of people trying to turn this silk purse into a sow's ear.  Maybe they should try alchemy instead, as it is fairly cool and has a higher success rate.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Ortho_cat on March 02, 2011, 03:13:15 AM
Ok, so he asked for a leave of absence at the recommendation of the Synod...fair enough. Not sure why they had to make it look like he was requesting it, though. They could have just said, "we recommended it, he accepted" end of story.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Orual on March 02, 2011, 03:20:09 AM
Ok, so he asked for a leave of absence at the recommendation of the Synod...fair enough. Not sure why they had to make it look like he was requesting it, though. They could have just said, "we recommended it, he accepted" end of story.

I think the point of having him request it, following their recommendation of it, was to make it absolutely clear in the minutes that the leave was voluntary, and was not being used as a euphemism for suspension.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Ortho_cat on March 02, 2011, 03:30:24 AM
Perhaps, but I think it can give some the opposite impression unfortunately. Personally I think it would have been better if they said "we gave him the option to take leave if he wanted to." From the letter, I still have a difficult time determining whether this leave of absence was mandatory or not (if he would have not agreed, would they have still insisted?) Perhaps i'm nitpicking...
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: serb1389 on March 02, 2011, 03:36:25 AM
Perhaps, but I think it can give some the opposite impression unfortunately. Personally I think it would have been better if they said "we gave him the option to take leave if he wanted to." From the letter, I still have a difficult time determining whether this leave of absence was mandatory or not (if he would have not agreed, would they have still insisted?) Perhaps i'm nitpicking...

"i'll make you an offer you can't refuse" 
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Orual on March 02, 2011, 04:45:27 AM
Perhaps, but I think it can give some the opposite impression unfortunately. Personally I think it would have been better if they said "we gave him the option to take leave if he wanted to." From the letter, I still have a difficult time determining whether this leave of absence was mandatory or not (if he would have not agreed, would they have still insisted?) Perhaps i'm nitpicking...

To me, it really doesn't imply that they presented it to Met. Jonah in a "Either take leave or we'll make you" kind of way.  It sounds like they said something like, "We don't think you are doing your job effectively because your health is in such bad shape, please take a break for a couple of months because we're really worried about you," and the Metropolitan agreed without disputing what they said. 

I did get the impression that they might have been more forceful about it if he had declined, like possibly putting him under some kind of disciplinary action until he sought medical attention, depending on the extent and nature of his illness.  But his lack of argument after the idea of leave was presented, makes it sound like he knows he has a problem and wants to do better.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: admiralnick on March 02, 2011, 09:51:42 AM
Just a note in response to the OCA statutes. I looked over them just now there is nothing relating to taking a leave of absence of the Metropolitan.

-Nick

According to Article 2, Section 7 of the statutes of the OCA.  Note the bolded section:
Quote
The following matters are within the jurisdiction and competence of the Holy Synod:
All matters involving doctrine, canonical order, morals, and liturgical practice;
All canonical matters pertaining to the election and consecration of bishops as provided by Article VI;
The establishment of new dioceses, the definition of diocesan boundaries, and the acceptance of dioceses into the jurisdiction of the Orthodox Church in America;
Transfer of bishops and their retirement in accordance with Article VI, Section 7;
The acceptance of bishops from other jurisdictions;
Bishops' leaves of absence;
Bestowing honors upon bishops;
Examination of annual reports by the Metropolitan and the bishops on the fulfillment of their pastoral duties;
Solution of problems arising in the administration of individual dioceses and requiring the judgment of the entire episcopate;
Determination in all complaints involving bishops;
Acting as Supreme Church Court of Appeals for all matters involving bishops, clergy, and laity in accordance with Article XI, Section 6;
Establishment of general policies in relation to other Orthodox Churches and non-Orthodox religious bodies;
Appointment, upon recommendation by the Metropolitan Council, of the Chancellor, Secretary, Treasurer, and other officials whose competence or service extend beyond the boundaries of a single diocese;
Pastoral supervision over all Church organizations whose activity extends beyond the boundaries of a single diocese;
Appointment of committees on matters belonging to the competence of the Holy Synod;
General supervision over Armed Forces Chaplaincies, with the Metropolitan being particularly and immediately responsible in this field;
Decisions in cases involving non-Orthodox clergymen applying for admission into the Orthodox Church;
Supervision over theological schools;
Establishment of standards required for ordination;
Overseeing the missionary, educational, and social programs of the Church;
Supervision of ecclesiastical arts: architecture, iconography, choral music, and other applied arts.
(source: http://www.oca.org/DOCstatute.asp?SID=12&ID=2)

As His Beatitude noted in his remarks, he requested and obtained a leave of absence from the Holy Synod, as per the statutes.  He may be Metropolitan, but he's still a bishop and has acted accordingly.

Its says nothing about a bishop being allowed or not allowed to take a leave of absence. It merely says that the Synod has control over that issue. You're on very shaky legal ground there my friend.

-Nick
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: admiralnick on March 02, 2011, 10:00:30 AM
Just a small point...

For those who think Archbishop Job of blessed memory didn't get a break - he actually did. The summer before he died, he went to Slovakia for 16 days, a trip he had long wanted to make, as his grandmother had often spoken about it. He mentioned this in his address to the Midwest Diocesan Assembly, less than two months before he died.

It's mentioned on page 7-8 of the below file (from the diocesan website):

http://www.midwestdiocese.org/files/48th%20ASSEMBLY/221-ASSEMBLY-ADDRESS.pdf (http://www.midwestdiocese.org/files/48th%20ASSEMBLY/221-ASSEMBLY-ADDRESS.pdf)

Also, as has been related to me by multiple people who had known Archbishop Job for years, His Eminence severely disliked going to the doctor. Period.

Yes, Archbishop Job went to Slovakia and yes he went to Russia too..... But that doesn't mean he dropped everything on a leave of absence. He was still in contact with Fr. John at the Cathedral and other various people involved in the diocese.

As far as your assertion of not liking going to the doctor you are correct. Archbishop Job had a great dislike for 2 things.... Doctors and Plane Rides..... That is why he drove every where he went rather than fly....

-Nick
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: katherineofdixie on March 02, 2011, 10:22:50 AM
I don't really see any damning revelations in those minutes, except that there are a lot of people trying to turn this silk purse into a sow's ear.  Maybe they should try alchemy instead, as it is fairly cool and has a higher success rate.

Love it! ;D So true...
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: podkarpatska on March 02, 2011, 10:58:22 AM
Like idle hands, idle speculation is the Devil's playground. I'm for giving the OCA and the Metropolitan a break as well as our prayers.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: dilios on March 02, 2011, 11:27:52 AM

Quote

However, due to inaccurate reporting on the Internet stating that I had been deposed, that I had resigned, that I am on a leave of absence, rumors that have spread worldwide and have caused great concern among many. I owe you the faithful of this diocese clarification of the facts.


Why did Met Jonah say there was "inaccurate reporting" about his leave of absence? It would have been much better to be truthful with his people. That was some "clarification of the facts". His own people are being deceived. I hope he plans to go confession.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: ialmisry on March 02, 2011, 12:49:44 PM
Just a small point...

For those who think Archbishop Job of blessed memory didn't get a break - he actually did. The summer before he died, he went to Slovakia for 16 days, a trip he had long wanted to make, as his grandmother had often spoken about it. He mentioned this in his address to the Midwest Diocesan Assembly, less than two months before he died.

It's mentioned on page 7-8 of the below file (from the diocesan website):

http://www.midwestdiocese.org/files/48th%20ASSEMBLY/221-ASSEMBLY-ADDRESS.pdf (http://www.midwestdiocese.org/files/48th%20ASSEMBLY/221-ASSEMBLY-ADDRESS.pdf)

Also, as has been related to me by multiple people who had known Archbishop Job for years, His Eminence severely disliked going to the doctor. Period.

Yes, Archbishop Job went to Slovakia and yes he went to Russia too..... But that doesn't mean he dropped everything on a leave of absence. He was still in contact with Fr. John at the Cathedral and other various people involved in the diocese.

As far as your assertion of not liking going to the doctor you are correct. Archbishop Job had a great dislike for 2 things.... Doctors and Plane Rides..... That is why he drove every where he went rather than fly....
LOL. I remember one time His Grace was giving a talk to the children on Lent, comparing it to a trip.  At one ponit he said "....and then you have to know how long the trip is going to take.  If it is going to take 5 hours....but then some people can make it in 4, [biting lip, gazing up] but we're not going to talk about that......"

Memory Eternal!
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: kijabeboy03 on March 02, 2011, 01:22:03 PM
Haha! He was so wonderful :-). I was so sure we in the Midwest would lose him to the metropolitanate and not to heaven :-/. Memory eternal!
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Ortho_cat on March 02, 2011, 02:45:37 PM
Like idle hands, idle speculation is the Devil's playground. I'm for giving the OCA and the Metropolitan a break as well as our prayers.

hmm i always heard it was 'an idle mind'...  :angel:
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: katherineofdixie on March 02, 2011, 03:14:27 PM
Like idle hands, idle speculation is the Devil's playground. I'm for giving the OCA and the Metropolitan a break as well as our prayers.

hmm i always heard it was 'an idle mind'...  :angel:

Maybe, but my great-grandmother always said that "idle hands are the devil's workshop!" before handing me a broom, or a rag and a bucket of soap and water.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Orthodox_In_Mexico on March 13, 2011, 01:00:25 AM
Bishop Jonah is the best thing to happen to the OCA in 30 years.  He is a great man.  He has also been quite tough in dealing with the Russians and the Greeks in trying to dissolve the OCA and turn the US into, well, a bunch of ethnic churches with the converts going to the OCA and Antiochian churches, with the Greeks having all the money, the Russians not talking to anyone who doesn't speak Russian, and the Serbs doing about the same.

I live in San Diego, where the Metropolitan grew up.  We have 7 different churches from 7 different jurisdictions, Serb, Ukranian, Russian, Greek, OCA, Antiochian, ROCOR, and Moscow.  The Moscow church that I go to is under the only Mexican archpriest in the United States and is almost all converts.  The ROCOR church is highly reactionary refusing to have anything to do with anyone who is not Russian.  The Serb church is huge, beautiful, and has the character of an ethnic church, Catholic or Orthodox, where guests are tolerated, but then frankly advised to go to an Antiochian or OCA.

His Emminence grew up in this kind of atmosphere, and it shaped his outlook.  People driving 40 miles across San Diego valley to go to a church when there was a perfectly nice Orthodox church only 3 miles away.  He wants to unite the churches in the United States, more than anything.....seems to be a noble goal.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Orual on March 13, 2011, 12:03:53 PM
Bishop Jonah is the best thing to happen to the OCA in 30 years.  He is a great man.  He has also been quite tough in dealing with the Russians and the Greeks in trying to dissolve the OCA and turn the US into, well, a bunch of ethnic churches with the converts going to the OCA and Antiochian churches, with the Greeks having all the money, the Russians not talking to anyone who doesn't speak Russian, and the Serbs doing about the same.

I live in San Diego, where the Metropolitan grew up.  We have 7 different churches from 7 different jurisdictions, Serb, Ukranian, Russian, Greek, OCA, Antiochian, ROCOR, and Moscow.  The Moscow church that I go to is under the only Mexican archpriest in the United States and is almost all converts.  The ROCOR church is highly reactionary refusing to have anything to do with anyone who is not Russian.  The Serb church is huge, beautiful, and has the character of an ethnic church, Catholic or Orthodox, where guests are tolerated, but then frankly advised to go to an Antiochian or OCA.

His Emminence grew up in this kind of atmosphere, and it shaped his outlook.  People driving 40 miles across San Diego valley to go to a church when there was a perfectly nice Orthodox church only 3 miles away.  He wants to unite the churches in the United States, more than anything.....seems to be a noble goal.

Thanks for those insights.  I heard His Beatitude's parents still live in San Diego and that he went to visit them this week.

I agree that ethnocentric/phyletist attitudes in churches are a big problem, and Metropolitan Jonah being metropolitan is America's best hope for resolving that at any point in the near future.  There isn't going to be an easy solution, but there's got to be a better option than simply creating American ethnic churches (which is basically what convert churches are) to go with all the others.   Voluntary segregation like this is much harder to overcome than de jure segregation, because it simply can't be abolished by authority's fiat.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Orthodox_In_Mexico on March 13, 2011, 06:50:14 PM
I think we need to remember that our church leaders are, well, sinners and human beings like the rest of us.  I met Met. Jonah when I spent Pasca at his monastery about 5 years ago.  I wonder if maybe he should have stayed being the abbot there, because it was clearly evident that his heart and soul had been poured into creating the monastery in Manton.  There is a talk by Met. Jonah available as a podcast to download online where he talks about his spiritual journey to building the monastery in Manton.  It is a wonderful monastery and maintains excellent relations not only with the Plantina monastery nearby.  Two monasteries that are completely filled with American (and a few Canadian!) monks.  Sure, it doesn't have the million dollar chapels and temples of St. Antony's or other Greek monasteries.

Met. Jonah wants to see Orthodoxy more accessible to genuine seekers, like he himself was as a young man.  I think he is tired of the "nave behind the plexiglass", as it is at St. Anthony's monastery, by the way literally, but exists quite metaphorically at the completely ethnic parishes.  He has a powerful and very genuine ideal of an American Orthodox Church.  I frankly see nothing wrong with that.  United we stand, divided we fall. 

There are some "melting pot" churches out there, where people are all united by being Orthodox and not about what country their grandparents or great-grandparents were born.  My former church in Salt Lake had a convert priest, a cradle Orthodox deacon, and a Russian reader who was still learning English.  About 70% of the liturgy being done in English, and then a decent representation of other languages.  But, that isn't the point.  The point is being united in Christ.  Didn't Paul warn about "divisions among you"?  "I belong to Serbian"  "I belong to Greece"  "I belong to Fr. Epariam of St. Antony's monastery"  etc, etc.

We need to be truly united in Christ.  And, so many Orthodox in the United States feel excluded, or, worse, only included when they are at their ethnic church.  The relations between the Orthodox Churches in any city are SO important.  How can we even attempt dialogging with heterodox when we won't engage in discussions among ourselves?  Why is Greek the exclusive language used liturgically at Holy Cross, where 95% of the student don't speak Greek?  What is up with Russian and Serbian language schools at churches?  It seems to me that at church, the focus should be on the Tradition of the Church, be it the Bible of Lives of the Saints or patristics or history or whatever.

I've gone off topic a bit:  but, I really think that Met. Jonah could be the first in a line of newly minded bishops that want genuine unity among the canonical churches.  The main point Fr. Jonah made in his wonderful podcast lecture is the problem of Orthodox Christians in big, culturally diverse cities exercising tribalism instead of worshiping Christ.  In Russia, people go to the church that is closest to their house.  That is just what they do.  Here in the States, our individualist nature (which is COMPLETELY at odds with Orthodoxy - but, that is another topic) has people who won't go to a certain church because the priest might have a short beard or the church has pews or other reasons it is not "Orthodox" enough. 

This is a very complex topic with no simple solution because Orthodoxy is and always has been a religion that tended to be along ethnic lines for its entire history.  The Byzantines were Greek, and when the Bulgarians became Orthodox, their was no question of Bulgarians going to a church where Greek was spoken.  Russians could count on Church Slavonic in all their churches, and that everyone spoke Russian!

I think that Met. Jonah is one of the first primates to really address in detail this problem in the United States, and to think about how to develop a genuine "American Orthodox Church."  But...it is going to be an uphill battle to say the least!
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Brigidsboy on March 13, 2011, 08:19:28 PM
I have several close friends who attend the Serbian Church in San Diego, including the choir director who has served for over twenty years.. Not one of them is of Serbian descent and no one has ever suggested that they don't belong, or should go to the Antiochans, etc.



I think we need to remember that our church leaders are, well, sinners and human beings like the rest of us.  I met Met. Jonah when I spent Pasca at his monastery about 5 years ago.  I wonder if maybe he should have stayed being the abbot there, because it was clearly evident that his heart and soul had been poured into creating the monastery in Manton.  There is a talk by Met. Jonah available as a podcast to download online where he talks about his spiritual journey to building the monastery in Manton.  It is a wonderful monastery and maintains excellent relations not only with the Plantina monastery nearby.  Two monasteries that are completely filled with American (and a few Canadian!) monks.  Sure, it doesn't have the million dollar chapels and temples of St. Antony's or other Greek monasteries.

Met. Jonah wants to see Orthodoxy more accessible to genuine seekers, like he himself was as a young man.  I think he is tired of the "nave behind the plexiglass", as it is at St. Anthony's monastery, by the way literally, but exists quite metaphorically at the completely ethnic parishes.  He has a powerful and very genuine ideal of an American Orthodox Church.  I frankly see nothing wrong with that.  United we stand, divided we fall. 

There are some "melting pot" churches out there, where people are all united by being Orthodox and not about what country their grandparents or great-grandparents were born.  My former church in Salt Lake had a convert priest, a cradle Orthodox deacon, and a Russian reader who was still learning English.  About 70% of the liturgy being done in English, and then a decent representation of other languages.  But, that isn't the point.  The point is being united in Christ.  Didn't Paul warn about "divisions among you"?  "I belong to Serbian"  "I belong to Greece"  "I belong to Fr. Epariam of St. Antony's monastery"  etc, etc.

We need to be truly united in Christ.  And, so many Orthodox in the United States feel excluded, or, worse, only included when they are at their ethnic church.  The relations between the Orthodox Churches in any city are SO important.  How can we even attempt dialogging with heterodox when we won't engage in discussions among ourselves?  Why is Greek the exclusive language used liturgically at Holy Cross, where 95% of the student don't speak Greek?  What is up with Russian and Serbian language schools at churches?  It seems to me that at church, the focus should be on the Tradition of the Church, be it the Bible of Lives of the Saints or patristics or history or whatever.

I've gone off topic a bit:  but, I really think that Met. Jonah could be the first in a line of newly minded bishops that want genuine unity among the canonical churches.  The main point Fr. Jonah made in his wonderful podcast lecture is the problem of Orthodox Christians in big, culturally diverse cities exercising tribalism instead of worshiping Christ.  In Russia, people go to the church that is closest to their house.  That is just what they do.  Here in the States, our individualist nature (which is COMPLETELY at odds with Orthodoxy - but, that is another topic) has people who won't go to a certain church because the priest might have a short beard or the church has pews or other reasons it is not "Orthodox" enough. 

This is a very complex topic with no simple solution because Orthodoxy is and always has been a religion that tended to be along ethnic lines for its entire history.  The Byzantines were Greek, and when the Bulgarians became Orthodox, their was no question of Bulgarians going to a church where Greek was spoken.  Russians could count on Church Slavonic in all their churches, and that everyone spoke Russian!

I think that Met. Jonah is one of the first primates to really address in detail this problem in the United States, and to think about how to develop a genuine "American Orthodox Church."  But...it is going to be an uphill battle to say the least!
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Tikhon29605 on April 03, 2011, 09:21:50 AM
For those of you who may still be concerned about the "unrest" within the OCA concerning our beloved Metropolitan Jonah (I love our Metropolitan and hope God grants him many years), I stumbled upon this video clip from the Moscow Patriarchate.  It shows Patriarch Kyrill and Metropolitan Jonah together at St. Catherine Representation Church in Moscow.  The text is both in Russian and in English, with Metropolitan Hilarion translating.  It is good to see Kyrill and Jonah together, and, at least as presented here in this clip, they show an apparent love, appreciation and respect for one another.  It did me good to see this clip and I hope others here enjoy it.

Blessings during the Fast to all!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AH0dAkuO26g
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: rakovsky on April 03, 2011, 10:45:46 AM
Memory Eternal for + Bishop Job. He was a kind person.

Bishop Jonah is the best thing to happen to the OCA in 30 years.  He is a great man.  He has also been quite tough in dealing with the Russians and the Greeks in trying to dissolve the OCA and turn the US into, well, a bunch of ethnic churches with the converts going to the OCA and Antiochian churches, with the Greeks having all the money, the Russians not talking to anyone who doesn't speak Russian, and the Serbs doing about the same.
Russians weren't trying to dissolve OCA.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: AMM on April 29, 2011, 03:11:58 PM
I happened to run across this today

http://www.ocanews.org/news/JonahComesOutSwinging4.27.11.html

What on earth is going on?  I read in the comments something about Bishop Mark as well.  Didn't he recently come from another church?
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: kijabeboy03 on April 29, 2011, 03:20:09 PM
Yes, but he's administrator of the Diocese of Dallas and possibly (likely?) its next ruling bishop. Some wingnut was upset that he had the diocesan locum tenens appointed by the Holy Synod commemorated in the services despite Metropolitan Jonah's attempt to have himself put back in as locum tenens...
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: FormerReformer on April 29, 2011, 04:58:10 PM
I happened to run across this today

http://www.ocanews.org/news/JonahComesOutSwinging4.27.11.html

What on earth is going on?  I read in the comments something about Bishop Mark as well.  Didn't he recently come from another church?

I'm not entirely sure, but I'm taking ocanews and it's opponent websites with a grain of salt these days.  It mostly seems like a bunch of hysterical mud-flinging (from both sides).  As far as I can figure out Metropolitan Jonah has done nothing wrong, but there seems to be some sort of pressing need to watch his every move under a microscope (and apparently the microscope hasn't had it's lens cleaned in 10 years).
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Veniamin on April 30, 2011, 01:32:46 PM
I happened to run across this today

http://www.ocanews.org/news/JonahComesOutSwinging4.27.11.html

What on earth is going on?  I read in the comments something about Bishop Mark as well.  Didn't he recently come from another church?

I'm not entirely sure, but I'm taking ocanews and it's opponent websites with a grain of salt these days.  It mostly seems like a bunch of hysterical mud-flinging (from both sides).  As far as I can figure out Metropolitan Jonah has done nothing wrong, but there seems to be some sort of pressing need to watch his every move under a microscope (and apparently the microscope hasn't had it's lens cleaned in 10 years).

Only one grain?  I'm using it by the bucketload when it comes to them.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Orual on May 01, 2011, 12:18:08 PM
As far as I can figure out Metropolitan Jonah has done nothing wrong, but there seems to be some sort of pressing need to watch his every move under a microscope (and apparently the microscope hasn't had it's lens cleaned in 10 years).

That is by far the most succinct and accurate summary of the current crisis that I've read so far.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: augustin717 on May 01, 2011, 12:25:33 PM
Mr. Dreher was outed as the man behind "OCATruth". What a ridiculous character he is!
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: AMM on May 01, 2011, 12:36:41 PM
Something tells me people just didn't wake up and and decided to start opposing the Metropolitan though for no reason, so I'm skeptical of the idea that he has "done nothing wrong".  That does not make sense to me.

I also do not understand the Bishop Mark situation, and why the vitriol there that I read.  The thing augustin717 mentions I just read as well.  Even more bizarre.

The one comment on that blog I found most puzzling was that the Diocese of the South was set up as an "Anti Syosset".
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: 88Devin12 on May 01, 2011, 12:45:53 PM
Mr. Dreher was outed as the man behind "OCATruth". What a ridiculous character he is!

So what? Big freakin' deal? Both OCATruth and OCANews.org are stupid, simply slinging mud at one another and taking pot-shots at one another... The behavior of Mark Stokoe, Jesse Cone, Rod Dreher, and Jason Folsom is certainly not commendable, and in my opinion, none of the behavior exhibited on either site is becoming of an Orthodox Christian.

Just because Lent has ended didn't mean they had to start their mud-slinging again. They all really need to grow up and focus more on what is more important.

I love Frederica Matthews-Greene's recent podcast where she didn't directly discuss any controversy, but she referred to Bishops as not really being "Orthodox". We have Bishops because it's a part of our tradition, and because it is what has been handed down to us from the Apostles for organization and unity. However, it is much more important that we focus on our lives, and on living as Orthodox Christians. It's simply not Orthodox to sit and complain about what hierarch said what, and what Orthodox Christian is saying to another.

I guarantee you that most of us would not say the things in real life to one another that we say here online. Even if we did say them in real life, I would bet our spiritual Fathers would tell us to repent and ask for forgiveness of one another. I think we are all-too often ready to take up the example of St. Nicholas and we are willing to exert what we think is "righteous anger" and slap around our opposition, without realizing that it's just Satan who is dividing us, and sometimes, the things that divide us aren't worth fighting for.

Both OCANews.org and OCATruth.com are not behaving in an Orthodox manner, and I don't think any of us should be commending either side, both are in the wrong. It would be very commendable, and very Orthodox if they both simply stopped their mud-slinging, and bowed before one another, asking for each other's forgiveness, and just accept to agree to disagree; and then move on to just trying to be Orthodox, and not trying to be Crusaders.

(and I think we all should take note of this as well, most of all myself)
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: SDMPNS on May 01, 2011, 01:34:17 PM
I really pray that it is not true that Father Joseph Fester called Bishop Mark a "turd"...Thats just awful...Why don't we just all take a deep breath and pray for each other...Poor Rod Dreher ..looked like he is just been manipulated and bought it or ,perhaps,is a very nefarious man. I certainly disagree with the politics of the Templeton Foundation but I doubt they will keep him on their staff after this foolishness.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: podkarpatska on May 01, 2011, 01:40:51 PM
Mr. Dreher was outed as the man behind "OCATruth". What a ridiculous character he is!

So what? Big freakin' deal? Both OCATruth and OCANews.org are stupid, simply slinging mud at one another and taking pot-shots at one another... The behavior of Mark Stokoe, Jesse Cone, Rod Dreher, and Jason Folsom is certainly not commendable, and in my opinion, none of the behavior exhibited on either site is becoming of an Orthodox Christian.

Just because Lent has ended didn't mean they had to start their mud-slinging again. They all really need to grow up and focus more on what is more important.

I love Frederica Matthews-Greene's recent podcast where she didn't directly discuss any controversy, but she referred to Bishops as not really being "Orthodox". We have Bishops because it's a part of our tradition, and because it is what has been handed down to us from the Apostles for organization and unity. However, it is much more important that we focus on our lives, and on living as Orthodox Christians. It's simply not Orthodox to sit and complain about what hierarch said what, and what Orthodox Christian is saying to another.

I guarantee you that most of us would not say the things in real life to one another that we say here online. Even if we did say them in real life, I would bet our spiritual Fathers would tell us to repent and ask for forgiveness of one another. I think we are all-too often ready to take up the example of St. Nicholas and we are willing to exert what we think is "righteous anger" and slap around our opposition, without realizing that it's just Satan who is dividing us, and sometimes, the things that divide us aren't worth fighting for.

Both OCANews.org and OCATruth.com are not behaving in an Orthodox manner, and I don't think any of us should be commending either side, both are in the wrong. It would be very commendable, and very Orthodox if they both simply stopped their mud-slinging, and bowed before one another, asking for each other's forgiveness, and just accept to agree to disagree; and then move on to just trying to be Orthodox, and not trying to be Crusaders.

(and I think we all should take note of this as well, most of all myself)

Is there a link to the above referenced podcast? I am interested in the context in which Ms. Matthews-Greene made the alleged statement about Bishops not "really being 'Orthodox.' " Thank you.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Tikhon29605 on May 01, 2011, 01:44:31 PM
I don't even want to choose "sides" in this shameful episode in our beloved OCA.  I often ponder what led us to this point and how it might have been avoided, all rather pointless questions now since factions and tensions have developed within the Holy Synod.  Who knows where the truth is in all of this?  I certainly don't.  I often think of the question the late Archbishop Job posed during another crisis not that long ago: How can we expect our Lord to bless us with this going on?

Kyrie eleison!
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: tuesdayschild on May 01, 2011, 01:50:07 PM
Poor Rod Dreher (snip) I certainly disagree with the politics of the Templeton Foundation but I doubt they will keep him on their staff after this foolishness.

Meh. If they hired him after reading his Beliefnet blog, they won't fire him over this.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: SDMPNS on May 01, 2011, 01:52:13 PM
Who is Frederica Matthews-Green to say who is Orthodox and who isn't?
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: SDMPNS on May 01, 2011, 01:54:39 PM
Poor Rod Dreher (snip) I certainly disagree with the politics of the Templeton Foundation but I doubt they will keep him on their staff after this foolishness.

Meh. If they hired him after reading his Beliefnet blog, they won't fire him over this.

Thats true...I should have thought of that...it was a bunch of drivel...why does every convert want his own blog or to be tonsured a reader? Oh well...looks like "Crunchy" got conned!
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: 88Devin12 on May 01, 2011, 02:07:51 PM
Mr. Dreher was outed as the man behind "OCATruth". What a ridiculous character he is!

So what? Big freakin' deal? Both OCATruth and OCANews.org are stupid, simply slinging mud at one another and taking pot-shots at one another... The behavior of Mark Stokoe, Jesse Cone, Rod Dreher, and Jason Folsom is certainly not commendable, and in my opinion, none of the behavior exhibited on either site is becoming of an Orthodox Christian.

Just because Lent has ended didn't mean they had to start their mud-slinging again. They all really need to grow up and focus more on what is more important.

I love Frederica Matthews-Greene's recent podcast where she didn't directly discuss any controversy, but she referred to Bishops as not really being "Orthodox". We have Bishops because it's a part of our tradition, and because it is what has been handed down to us from the Apostles for organization and unity. However, it is much more important that we focus on our lives, and on living as Orthodox Christians. It's simply not Orthodox to sit and complain about what hierarch said what, and what Orthodox Christian is saying to another.

I guarantee you that most of us would not say the things in real life to one another that we say here online. Even if we did say them in real life, I would bet our spiritual Fathers would tell us to repent and ask for forgiveness of one another. I think we are all-too often ready to take up the example of St. Nicholas and we are willing to exert what we think is "righteous anger" and slap around our opposition, without realizing that it's just Satan who is dividing us, and sometimes, the things that divide us aren't worth fighting for.

Both OCANews.org and OCATruth.com are not behaving in an Orthodox manner, and I don't think any of us should be commending either side, both are in the wrong. It would be very commendable, and very Orthodox if they both simply stopped their mud-slinging, and bowed before one another, asking for each other's forgiveness, and just accept to agree to disagree; and then move on to just trying to be Orthodox, and not trying to be Crusaders.

(and I think we all should take note of this as well, most of all myself)

Is there a link to the above referenced podcast? I am interested in the context in which Ms. Matthews-Greene made the alleged statement about Bishops not "really being 'Orthodox.' " Thank you.

More correctly, she said, "thats not Orthodoxy"... It must have been my fault that I didn't word that correctly
I think, as she says it, thats not what Orthodoxy is about. It's not that we shouldn't have Bishops, it's just that Bishops and Church Politics isn't what Orthodoxy is about.

Here is the Podcast:
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/frederica/thats_not_orthodoxy

(also, SDMPNS, she never said anyone isn't Orthodox)
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: SDMPNS on May 01, 2011, 03:53:11 PM

(also, SDMPNS, she never said anyone isn't Orthodox)
[/quote]

Good....not that I'd ever listen to her...
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: 88Devin12 on May 01, 2011, 03:55:12 PM
Quote

(also, SDMPNS, she never said anyone isn't Orthodox)

Good....not that I'd ever listen to her...

Why not? She's one of the most beloved Orthodox people in America... Have you ever listened to her?
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: orthonorm on May 01, 2011, 04:05:04 PM
I guarantee you that most of us would not say the things in real life to one another that we say here online.

I promise you would hear worse from me (not directed at you in particular). No false humility either.

Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: augustin717 on May 01, 2011, 04:16:03 PM
Who is Frederica Matthews-Green to say who is Orthodox and who isn't?
She is a clarvoyant eldress. Now stop questioning her authority and go to confession >:( >:( >:( >:(
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on May 01, 2011, 04:37:48 PM
Who is Frederica Matthews-Green to say who is Orthodox and who isn't?
She is a clarvoyant eldress. Now stop questioning her authority and go to confession >:( >:( >:( >:(

To each his own, but I would want to emphasize just one little point. Why do some of us insult a person we really don't know? What sort of Christian charity does this exemplify? Finally, does deemphasizing a stranger, a woman to boot, makes some of us feel bigger men, better persons?
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: SDMPNS on May 01, 2011, 05:08:21 PM
I am not insulting her..I've heard her speak in person and she isn't someone I'd seek out...Metropolitan Kalistos Ware yes...Father Hopko yes... but Frederica Matthews -Green no...she is just too cutesy for me personally
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: podkarpatska on May 01, 2011, 05:19:05 PM
I am not insulting her..I've heard her speak in person and she isn't someone I'd seek out...Metropolitan Kalistos Ware yes...Father Hopko yes... but Frederica Matthews -Green no...she is just too cutesy for me personally

I agree, she spoke at a diocesan convention a few years back and I had a similar reaction, I didn't dislike her, but she was not my personal cup of tea. I am glad that Devin clarified her comments as I would have thought that her husband's Bishop would not have taken too kindly to what first was stated.

Sadly, politics does come hand in hand with the church - for better or for worse. I remember in the days before blogs and social networking, that letters with no return addresses, mailed from towns without a parish and often either typed or pasted together like ransom notes used to be the main means of spreading trouble across a parish or a diocese. Now trouble and gossip is instantaneous but worthy of the same destination. My dad used the 'circular file', we can use the trash button or delete on our computer.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: AMM on May 01, 2011, 07:18:35 PM
I really pray that it is not true that Father Joseph Fester called Bishop Mark a "turd"...

I have to admit that a Protopresbyter and cathedral dean referring to a bishop as a "turd" that should be "smoked out" is rather astounding.  Something is wrong, and my inclination is it is not the OCA News web site.  It seems to me though the leadership has changed, many of the same problems have persisted in this particular jurisdiction.  I think that is hard for people to come to terms with having had expectations raised so high when the new Metropolitan came in.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: FormerReformer on May 01, 2011, 07:25:19 PM
I really pray that it is not true that Father Joseph Fester called Bishop Mark a "turd"...

I have to admit that a Protopresbyter and cathedral dean referring to a bishop as a "turd" that should be "smoked out" is rather astounding.  Something is wrong, and my inclination is it is not the OCA News web site.  It seems to me though the leadership has changed, many of the same problems have persisted in this particular jurisdiction.  I think that is hard for people to come to terms with having had expectations raised so high when the new Metropolitan came in.

Like I said earlier, a grain of salt with everything these days.  Pretty much all the maneuvering and politicking that's come to light recently (again, from both sides) shows that something is indeed rotten in the state of Denmark.  Hopefully this mess turns out better than Hamlet.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: TheodoraElizabeth3 on May 01, 2011, 09:21:12 PM
Today at church (I'm in the OCA Midwest Diocese), I was talking to a few people, all either cradle Orthodox or in the Church for at least five years, about these issues. It was in the context of seeing all the members of the Synod this weekend at Bishop Matthias' consecration, looking at them and wondering what was going through their brains. I'm praying nothing explosive comes out of the Synod and MC meetings this week

I can't go into the whole discussion, but what essentially transpired is that people who were very open talking about the OCA's "time of troubles" under Met. Herman are now extremely reluctant to talk about this situation at all. I'm not really sure why. I'd say almost all in the parish have no idea as to what is going on, or that anything is going on. And these are people who kept themselves informed on the situation during 2006-2009.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: AMM on May 02, 2011, 08:42:15 AM
The latest post on OCA News is starting to make sense of this for me.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: 88Devin12 on May 02, 2011, 08:51:50 AM
The latest post on OCA News is starting to make sense of this for me.
I'm starting to think that maybe this thread needs to be sent to either the Free-For-All section, or the Politics section. So much of the information on here is based on hearsay, rumors, and the mud-slinging between two unofficial, private websites.

And while this certainly fits with current events and "Christian News", I just fail to see how any of this has anything to do with our salvation and why we are bothering to even argue about it.

I think, that even if you support OCANews.org, or it's opponent, OCATruth.com; we all must recognize that most information from these websites is simply hearsay and rumor, both of which are things that we are taught to shy away from as Orthodox Christians.

I believe it is time for all of us to step back and consider if this is really a matter for us laity to fight one other over, and whether or not we should allow this to divide us. Christ says, "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." - Matthew 26:52... I believe we can also apply this to our willingness to take up the sword against one another in an allegorical sense. St. Peter was defending Christ with his sword, and yet Christ (I believe) made it clear that we aren't to fight his battles, we aren't Crusaders on his behalf. Certainly we should seek for justice, but we don't seek justice as the world seeks justice, we don't seek vengeance or punishment, but repentance.

Being here in Greece has taught me how frivolous these issues are. I am lucky I do not speak Greek, because I an ignorant of the controversies and arguments present here. If one Bishop offends another, I don't know, and I don't care. As long as I can freely work on my salvation, and receive the Eucharist at all Orthodox Churches, then that is all I feel I need to be concerned with. Everything else is just gossip and I believe, are all ploys by Satan to distract us from our real duty as Orthodox Christians.

I don't care what Metropolitan Jonah has said or done, it has no effect on me, or really, any other Orthodox Christians around me. If he has done wrong, that is between him and the person he offended, and it is not my job to force his hand into repentance. If wrong has been done, then there are those who have been appointed by the Apostles to deal with things accordingly. We have a hierarchy so that we don't have to fight this battles, it is a "shield" so that we can focus on what is truly important, our own salvation and the salvation of those around us. If anything distracts us from this, it is truly Anti-Christ.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: augustin717 on May 02, 2011, 09:15:46 AM
The soap opera only gets juicier  ;)
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: 88Devin12 on May 02, 2011, 09:19:01 AM
The soap opera only gets juicier  ;)
And with that, it gets more and more unedifying...

Orthodoxy should not be some soap opera for our entertainment...
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: augustin717 on May 02, 2011, 09:20:24 AM
The soap opera only gets juicier  ;)
And with that, it gets more and more unedifying...

Orthodoxy should not be some soap opera for our entertainment...
You watch it for fun, not for edification.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: AMM on May 02, 2011, 09:22:24 AM
There's a difference between fanning the flames, and dealing with them openly to put them out.  Regardless, one can ignore a fire, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.  It seems part of the issue with the previous crisis may have been the Ostrich approach.  It seems like that may not have worked.

I'm 99.9999% sure 99.9999% of the discussions here have nothing to do with salvation.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: 88Devin12 on May 02, 2011, 09:32:53 AM
The soap opera only gets juicier  ;)
And with that, it gets more and more unedifying...

Orthodoxy should not be some soap opera for our entertainment...
You watch it for fun, not for edification.
And so then what is the point of it? Do we rejoice at the sins of another? Do we watch someone's fall for entertainment? If so, then God help our souls... We are called to be Holy, and not to be like the world.

AMM, but it is really our place to try to put the fire out? All we seem to be doing is arguing with one another. Instead, I would argue that we can relay our feelings to our Priests and Hierarchs, and hopefully they will represent us well...

There is nothing any hierarch can do to hurt the Church or the faith.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: augustin717 on May 02, 2011, 09:37:57 AM
The soap opera only gets juicier  ;)
And with that, it gets more and more unedifying...

Orthodoxy should not be some soap opera for our entertainment...
You watch it for fun, not for edification.
And so then what is the point of it? Do we rejoice at the sins of another? Do we watch someone's fall for entertainment? If so, then God help our souls... We are called to be Holy, and not to be like the world.

AMM, but it is really our place to try to put the fire out? All we seem to be doing is arguing with one another. Instead, I would argue that we can relay our feelings to our Priests and Hierarchs, and hopefully they will represent us well...

There is nothing any hierarch can do to hurt the Church or the faith.
While I somehow understand your feelings, they still betray a very clericalist attitude. Comm'on, the least we could do for and get from the hierarchy is, oftentimes, a homeric laugh.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Asteriktos on May 02, 2011, 09:47:40 AM
Well, just think of it this way... fights and disputes and such have been going on since the time of the Apostles. Both Sts. Paul and John mention not just competing factions, but specific people who opposed them and were causing trouble...

"Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words." - 2 Tim. 4:14-15

"I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church." - 3 Jn. 9-10

And then there was the disputes between even Saints, such as the famous one between Paul and Peter (Gal. 2), and also Sts. Paul and Barnabas:

"And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark. But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work. And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other" - Acts 15:37-39
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: AMM on May 02, 2011, 10:02:03 AM
Quote
Instead, I would argue that we can relay our feelings to our Priests and Hierarchs, and hopefully they will represent us well...

Except when they don't, hence the reason I think OCA News exists.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: podkarpatska on May 02, 2011, 10:07:28 AM
The latest post on OCA News is starting to make sense of this for me.
I'm starting to think that maybe this thread needs to be sent to either the Free-For-All section, or the Politics section. So much of the information on here is based on hearsay, rumors, and the mud-slinging between two unofficial, private websites.

And while this certainly fits with current events and "Christian News", I just fail to see how any of this has anything to do with our salvation and why we are bothering to even argue about it.

I think, that even if you support OCANews.org, or it's opponent, OCATruth.com; we all must recognize that most information from these websites is simply hearsay and rumor, both of which are things that we are taught to shy away from as Orthodox Christians.

I believe it is time for all of us to step back and consider if this is really a matter for us laity to fight one other over, and whether or not we should allow this to divide us. Christ says, "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." - Matthew 26:52... I believe we can also apply this to our willingness to take up the sword against one another in an allegorical sense. St. Peter was defending Christ with his sword, and yet Christ (I believe) made it clear that we aren't to fight his battles, we aren't Crusaders on his behalf. Certainly we should seek for justice, but we don't seek justice as the world seeks justice, we don't seek vengeance or punishment, but repentance.

Being here in Greece has taught me how frivolous these issues are. I am lucky I do not speak Greek, because I an ignorant of the controversies and arguments present here. If one Bishop offends another, I don't know, and I don't care. As long as I can freely work on my salvation, and receive the Eucharist at all Orthodox Churches, then that is all I feel I need to be concerned with. Everything else is just gossip and I believe, are all ploys by Satan to distract us from our real duty as Orthodox Christians.

I don't care what Metropolitan Jonah has said or done, it has no effect on me, or really, any other Orthodox Christians around me. If he has done wrong, that is between him and the person he offended, and it is not my job to force his hand into repentance. If wrong has been done, then there are those who have been appointed by the Apostles to deal with things accordingly. We have a hierarchy so that we don't have to fight this battles, it is a "shield" so that we can focus on what is truly important, our own salvation and the salvation of those around us. If anything distracts us from this, it is truly Anti-Christ.

Your post is a home run IMHO. Many years ago my father supported a candidate for Bishop who lost a tightly contested election to succeed our Bishop who died suddenly. The Diocese was split in an emotionally charged between the two, finely qualified candidates. Both ultimately became Bishops, although not in the same jurisdiction. Anyway, many who supported the losing candidate remained bitter for years and years. But my father made his peace with the new Bishop and moved on. I asked him about it years later as some of his friends and colleagues even 'switched' jurisdictions over this issue, as to how he could have moved on so seemlessly. His answer was much like that which Devin expressed in his post. He said that we are charged to believe that the Holy Spirit is at work in the choice of our leades and absent clear proof of human fraud or improper acts in the selection process, we have to move forward, we have one Church and one Bishop and we can't allow our personal preferences to interfere with the greater mission of the Church. He lived through a period of much bitter division and schism and persevered until the end of his life as a faithful priest. There are no allegations of serious impropriety as in the OCA's period of 'troubles' in the last decade, so I agree, let the Bishops work it out and let the rest of us pray for our brothers and worry about problems within our own 'home' Churches rather than someone else's. Christ is Risen!
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: podkarpatska on May 02, 2011, 10:09:36 AM
The soap opera only gets juicier  ;)
And with that, it gets more and more unedifying...

Orthodoxy should not be some soap opera for our entertainment...
You watch it for fun, not for edification.
And so then what is the point of it? Do we rejoice at the sins of another? Do we watch someone's fall for entertainment? If so, then God help our souls... We are called to be Holy, and not to be like the world.

AMM, but it is really our place to try to put the fire out? All we seem to be doing is arguing with one another. Instead, I would argue that we can relay our feelings to our Priests and Hierarchs, and hopefully they will represent us well...

There is nothing any hierarch can do to hurt the Church or the faith.

While I wish I could agree with you that there is 'nothing' any hierarch can do to hurt the Church or the Faith, sadly, history tells us that is not always the case.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: 88Devin12 on May 02, 2011, 11:22:55 AM
The soap opera only gets juicier  ;)
And with that, it gets more and more unedifying...

Orthodoxy should not be some soap opera for our entertainment...
You watch it for fun, not for edification.
And so then what is the point of it? Do we rejoice at the sins of another? Do we watch someone's fall for entertainment? If so, then God help our souls... We are called to be Holy, and not to be like the world.

AMM, but it is really our place to try to put the fire out? All we seem to be doing is arguing with one another. Instead, I would argue that we can relay our feelings to our Priests and Hierarchs, and hopefully they will represent us well...

There is nothing any hierarch can do to hurt the Church or the faith.

While I wish I could agree with you that there is 'nothing' any hierarch can do to hurt the Church or the Faith, sadly, history tells us that is not always the case.

Actually on the contrary, history has shown us that is ALWAYS the case...
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Basil 320 on May 04, 2011, 08:56:17 PM
What's happening in Chicago?  Other than Fr. Joseph's removal from the OCA (quite a dramatic development), doesn't anyone have news about the actions or discussions of the Holy Synod or the Metropolitan Council?
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: tuesdayschild on May 04, 2011, 09:56:52 PM
What's happening in Chicago?  Other than Fr. Joseph's removal from the OCA (quite a dramatic development), doesn't anyone have news about the actions or discussions of the Holy Synod or the Metropolitan Council?

He was not removed from the OCA:
Quote
OCANews.org, however, has confirmed that parish council members in DC received phone calls late last night informing them that Fester had been “relieved of duty”, rather than “released from the OCA.” Sources in Chicago later confirmed that decision of the Metropolitan.
Source: http://ocanews.org/news/SynodMeetsInChicago5.2.11.html (http://ocanews.org/news/SynodMeetsInChicago5.2.11.html)
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: ICXCNIKA on May 04, 2011, 11:17:20 PM
I doubt it will end with being merely relieved of duty...
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: PrincessMommy on May 05, 2011, 09:22:13 AM
What's happening in Chicago?  Other than Fr. Joseph's removal from the OCA (quite a dramatic development), doesn't anyone have news about the actions or discussions of the Holy Synod or the Metropolitan Council?

He was not removed from the OCA:
Quote
OCANews.org, however, has confirmed that parish council members in DC received phone calls late last night informing them that Fester had been “relieved of duty”, rather than “released from the OCA.” Sources in Chicago later confirmed that decision of the Metropolitan.
Source: http://ocanews.org/news/SynodMeetsInChicago5.2.11.html (http://ocanews.org/news/SynodMeetsInChicago5.2.11.html)

If he was knee deep in this like it appears he was, that would be a positive move... but I sure do wish that the official OCA website would put these things out in a more timely manner.  I don't like receiving my church news from the likes of OCANews.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: tuesdayschild on May 05, 2011, 10:13:11 AM
but I sure do wish that the official OCA website would put these things out in a more timely manner.  I don't like receiving my church news from the likes of OCANews.

Same here.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on May 05, 2011, 11:31:38 AM
but I sure do wish that the official OCA website would put these things out in a more timely manner.  I don't like receiving my church news from the likes of OCANews.

Same here.

I know how you feel; I have hated to listen to the major networks' news for decades now. It was not so much their biased reporting that bothered me but their claim to objectivity. That's why cable news is so much the better, where one can taker the conservative slant from Fox News and the liberal slant from all the others. On the other hand, since all news are slanted, the Internet sites also play a part in rounding out the picture. As for news about the Church, the official organs will always contain far less information than sites like this one or OCA News. BTW, no matter one thinks of the current crisis, IMO OCA News had been immensely helpful to Orthodoxy in America in past crises.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: podkarpatska on May 05, 2011, 11:34:36 AM
I am not taking sides on this sad issue, but for what it is worth, there has been some discussion about the alleged confidentiality of e-mail information stored on 'corporate' computers. Setting the moral issues aside, the legal ones are fairly clear.

There is no expectation of privacy for material stored on corporate computers.

When I was a municipal attorney, my municipality adopted the recommended sample New York IT policy some years ago and it contained language like this:

"This system and its applications and data belong to (name of entity).  Access and use is limited
to authorized users for authorized purposes.  Actual or attempted unauthorized use is not permitted
and may be a crime subjecting you to disciplinary, criminal, civil, and/or administrative action.  You
are responsible for any activity attributed to you or your user-ID upon entering this system, and are
expected to:

1) Comply with all relevant federal, state, and agency policies, laws, rules, and regulations,
2) Access only systems and information to which you have been authorized for authorized purposes,
3) Not attach or install unauthorized software or hardware to this network or a workstation connected
to it,
4) Report any abuse or misuse of this system to the (name IT Department) and
if applicable your supervisor and agency Information Security Officer and cooperate fully in any
investigation.

Users have no legitimate expectation of privacy while using this system or any data in it. Any use
may be monitored and all information may be accessed, read, copied, used or disclosed by and to
authorized personnel for official purposes without additional prior notice to users.
  This notice shall
not be deemed to waive the rights of any person who may be the subject of data in this system.
Proceeding with system logon means that you have read and accept the above terms and conditions."

This generally restates the law of the state of New York in this matter.

This of course does not answer questions about the possible dissemination of such information beyond authorized corporate supervisors, but it is clear that such persons have absolute access to the information contained therein.

The disclosure of confidential sources of leaked information to the media is protected  as well by New York law and may apply to bloggers.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Shanghaiski on May 05, 2011, 11:36:08 AM
The soap opera only gets juicier  ;)
And with that, it gets more and more unedifying...

Orthodoxy should not be some soap opera for our entertainment...
You watch it for fun, not for edification.

Well, perhaps this is inculturation, in a sick way.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: FormerReformer on May 05, 2011, 11:58:52 AM
I am not taking sides on this sad issue, but for what it is worth, there has been some discussion about the alleged confidentiality of e-mail information stored on 'corporate' computers. Setting the moral issues aside, the legal ones are fairly clear.

There is no expectation of privacy for material stored on corporate computers.

When I was a municipal attorney, my municipality adopted the recommended sample New York IT policy some years ago and it contained language like this:

"This system and its applications and data belong to (name of entity).  Access and use is limited
to authorized users for authorized purposes.  Actual or attempted unauthorized use is not permitted
and may be a crime subjecting you to disciplinary, criminal, civil, and/or administrative action.  You
are responsible for any activity attributed to you or your user-ID upon entering this system, and are
expected to:

1) Comply with all relevant federal, state, and agency policies, laws, rules, and regulations,
2) Access only systems and information to which you have been authorized for authorized purposes,
3) Not attach or install unauthorized software or hardware to this network or a workstation connected
to it,
4) Report any abuse or misuse of this system to the (name IT Department) and
if applicable your supervisor and agency Information Security Officer and cooperate fully in any
investigation.

Users have no legitimate expectation of privacy while using this system or any data in it. Any use
may be monitored and all information may be accessed, read, copied, used or disclosed by and to
authorized personnel for official purposes without additional prior notice to users.
  This notice shall
not be deemed to waive the rights of any person who may be the subject of data in this system.
Proceeding with system logon means that you have read and accept the above terms and conditions."

This generally restates the law of the state of New York in this matter.

This of course does not answer questions about the possible dissemination of such information beyond authorized corporate supervisors, but it is clear that such persons have absolute access to the information contained therein.

The disclosure of confidential sources of leaked information to the media is protected  as well by New York law and may apply to bloggers.

That covers information stored on a corporate computer, but does it cover accessing someone's personal e-mail account using a password that has been stored on the corporate computer but to obtain information that has actually been stored in digital space?  From what little I've seen of this someone actually logged into Fr Joseph's gmail account (which could possibly have already been logged into and in the history of a corporate computer) and sent Stokoe copies of e-mails from Fr Joseph's "sent" directory.  Does logging into a personal e-mail account from work void all expectation of privacy to any information in that account, not just the information that has been saved in browser history and temporary internet files?

To use another example, say I sent an e-mail from home on my yahoo account to another person and made some disparaging remarks about my boss and corporate employer.  A few days later my boss accidentally logs into my yahoo account because I was stupid enough to leave my login information stored on a work computer, and curiosity gets the better of him and he decides to start snooping around.  Can he legally take action against me?
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: podkarpatska on May 05, 2011, 12:09:13 PM
I am not taking sides on this sad issue, but for what it is worth, there has been some discussion about the alleged confidentiality of e-mail information stored on 'corporate' computers. Setting the moral issues aside, the legal ones are fairly clear.

There is no expectation of privacy for material stored on corporate computers.

When I was a municipal attorney, my municipality adopted the recommended sample New York IT policy some years ago and it contained language like this:

"This system and its applications and data belong to (name of entity).  Access and use is limited
to authorized users for authorized purposes.  Actual or attempted unauthorized use is not permitted
and may be a crime subjecting you to disciplinary, criminal, civil, and/or administrative action.  You
are responsible for any activity attributed to you or your user-ID upon entering this system, and are
expected to:

1) Comply with all relevant federal, state, and agency policies, laws, rules, and regulations,
2) Access only systems and information to which you have been authorized for authorized purposes,
3) Not attach or install unauthorized software or hardware to this network or a workstation connected
to it,
4) Report any abuse or misuse of this system to the (name IT Department) and
if applicable your supervisor and agency Information Security Officer and cooperate fully in any
investigation.

Users have no legitimate expectation of privacy while using this system or any data in it. Any use
may be monitored and all information may be accessed, read, copied, used or disclosed by and to
authorized personnel for official purposes without additional prior notice to users.
  This notice shall
not be deemed to waive the rights of any person who may be the subject of data in this system.
Proceeding with system logon means that you have read and accept the above terms and conditions."

This generally restates the law of the state of New York in this matter.

This of course does not answer questions about the possible dissemination of such information beyond authorized corporate supervisors, but it is clear that such persons have absolute access to the information contained therein.

The disclosure of confidential sources of leaked information to the media is protected  as well by New York law and may apply to bloggers.

That covers information stored on a corporate computer, but does it cover accessing someone's personal e-mail account using a password that has been stored on the corporate computer but to obtain information that has actually been stored in digital space?  From what little I've seen of this someone actually logged into Fr Joseph's gmail account (which could possibly have already been logged into and in the history of a corporate computer) and sent Stokoe copies of e-mails from Fr Joseph's "sent" directory.  Does logging into a personal e-mail account from work void all expectation of privacy to any information in that account, not just the information that has been saved in browser history and temporary internet files?

To use another example, say I sent an e-mail from home on my yahoo account to another person and made some disparaging remarks about my boss and corporate employer.  A few days later my boss accidentally logs into my yahoo account because I was stupid enough to leave my login information stored on a work computer, and curiosity gets the better of him and he decides to start snooping around.  Can he legally take action against me?

We took the position that if the county's computer was used for messaging and you logged in from a county work station, even through an external account like yahoo, gmail, Roadrunner etc..., that we had access to the same.

We fired several unionized workers who were caught with porn messages and gambling messages. IT retrieved the same by use of the embedded password. Again, the general rule is that if the computer is not your personal property and it has been used by you in violation of the IT policy (i.e. logging in toyour personal email accounts) or on company time, even if at home if a laptop is assigned to you, you are stuck with the consequences.

The moral is, keep you private life private and use your own CPU and don't log in from work.

Again, I am not commenting on the morality of disseminating such allegedly properly obtained emails, merely on the legality of accessing them.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: FormerReformer on May 05, 2011, 12:23:49 PM
I am not taking sides on this sad issue, but for what it is worth, there has been some discussion about the alleged confidentiality of e-mail information stored on 'corporate' computers. Setting the moral issues aside, the legal ones are fairly clear.

There is no expectation of privacy for material stored on corporate computers.

When I was a municipal attorney, my municipality adopted the recommended sample New York IT policy some years ago and it contained language like this:

"This system and its applications and data belong to (name of entity).  Access and use is limited
to authorized users for authorized purposes.  Actual or attempted unauthorized use is not permitted
and may be a crime subjecting you to disciplinary, criminal, civil, and/or administrative action.  You
are responsible for any activity attributed to you or your user-ID upon entering this system, and are
expected to:

1) Comply with all relevant federal, state, and agency policies, laws, rules, and regulations,
2) Access only systems and information to which you have been authorized for authorized purposes,
3) Not attach or install unauthorized software or hardware to this network or a workstation connected
to it,
4) Report any abuse or misuse of this system to the (name IT Department) and
if applicable your supervisor and agency Information Security Officer and cooperate fully in any
investigation.

Users have no legitimate expectation of privacy while using this system or any data in it. Any use
may be monitored and all information may be accessed, read, copied, used or disclosed by and to
authorized personnel for official purposes without additional prior notice to users.
  This notice shall
not be deemed to waive the rights of any person who may be the subject of data in this system.
Proceeding with system logon means that you have read and accept the above terms and conditions."

This generally restates the law of the state of New York in this matter.

This of course does not answer questions about the possible dissemination of such information beyond authorized corporate supervisors, but it is clear that such persons have absolute access to the information contained therein.

The disclosure of confidential sources of leaked information to the media is protected  as well by New York law and may apply to bloggers.

That covers information stored on a corporate computer, but does it cover accessing someone's personal e-mail account using a password that has been stored on the corporate computer but to obtain information that has actually been stored in digital space?  From what little I've seen of this someone actually logged into Fr Joseph's gmail account (which could possibly have already been logged into and in the history of a corporate computer) and sent Stokoe copies of e-mails from Fr Joseph's "sent" directory.  Does logging into a personal e-mail account from work void all expectation of privacy to any information in that account, not just the information that has been saved in browser history and temporary internet files?

To use another example, say I sent an e-mail from home on my yahoo account to another person and made some disparaging remarks about my boss and corporate employer.  A few days later my boss accidentally logs into my yahoo account because I was stupid enough to leave my login information stored on a work computer, and curiosity gets the better of him and he decides to start snooping around.  Can he legally take action against me?

We took the position that if the county's computer was used for messaging and you logged in from a county work station, even through an external account like yahoo, gmail, Roadrunner etc..., that we had access to the same.

We fired several unionized workers who were caught with porn messages and gambling messages. IT retrieved the same by use of the embedded password. Again, the general rule is that if the computer is not your personal property and it has been used by you in violation of the IT policy (i.e. logging in toyour personal email accounts) or on company time, even if at home if a laptop is assigned to you, you are stuck with the consequences.

The moral is, keep you private life private and use your own CPU and don't log in from work.

Again, I am not commenting on the morality of disseminating such allegedly properly obtained emails, merely on the legality of accessing them.

Thank you, and good moral to the story.

The second question is, do you have to disclose such IT policies to employees, that is through an employee handbook or even a quick blurb during orientation?  Would the OCA have such a broad approach to IT policy given the nature of a lot of priests' and bishops' e-mail correspondence might be confessional in nature or at the very least be related to "counseling"?  This might cause a lot of parishioners to rethink corresponding with priests by e-mail if so.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: podkarpatska on May 05, 2011, 02:04:27 PM

Thank you, and good moral to the story.

The second question is, do you have to disclose such IT policies to employees, that is through an employee handbook or even a quick blurb during orientation?  Would the OCA have such a broad approach to IT policy given the nature of a lot of priests' and bishops' e-mail correspondence might be confessional in nature or at the very least be related to "counseling"?  This might cause a lot of parishioners to rethink corresponding with priests by e-mail if so.

I wouldn't presume to speak as to the OCA's practice or that of any other Church or not-for profit. We were a 'union' shop with five collective bargaining units and management who have legal protections written in under state law, hence it made sense to promulgate IT regulations and present them to employees at orientation and at periodic continuing education forums.

The advice that is usually dispensed when questions about confidential matters comes up is that you should not commit anything to writing that you do not want to read in another setting. Since local governments are usually bound by state open records law, I always counseled employees to expect the release of any letters or correspondence.

There are of course exceptions to the admissibility of certain communications as evidence in court or administrative proceedings, privileged confidentiality being one of them.(Medical records are a common privilege.)  However, as I stated several posts earlier, I am only addressing the issue of privacy expectations. Communications which might be 'leaked' to the press for example, might very well be inadmissible as evidence and would be subject to the normal rules of evidence, including the rule against hearsay and various priveleges which may be asserted.

Sorry if this sounds 'legalistic', but the nature of the subject requires me to be more detailed than on other subjects.

In any event, if you use your company's computers and write stupid, private things that you would never say in public, well- tough for you if it gets out. Be more prudent.

The old saying, 'Loose lips sink ships' remains applicable regardless of the setting!
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: FormerReformer on May 05, 2011, 02:50:24 PM

Thank you, and good moral to the story.

The second question is, do you have to disclose such IT policies to employees, that is through an employee handbook or even a quick blurb during orientation?  Would the OCA have such a broad approach to IT policy given the nature of a lot of priests' and bishops' e-mail correspondence might be confessional in nature or at the very least be related to "counseling"?  This might cause a lot of parishioners to rethink corresponding with priests by e-mail if so.

I wouldn't presume to speak as to the OCA's practice or that of any other Church or not-for profit. We were a 'union' shop with five collective bargaining units and management who have legal protections written in under state law, hence it made sense to promulgate IT regulations and present them to employees at orientation and at periodic continuing education forums.

The advice that is usually dispensed when questions about confidential matters comes up is that you should not commit anything to writing that you do not want to read in another setting. Since local governments are usually bound by state open records law, I always counseled employees to expect the release of any letters or correspondence.

There are of course exceptions to the admissibility of certain communications as evidence in court or administrative proceedings, privileged confidentiality being one of them.(Medical records are a common privilege.)  However, as I stated several posts earlier, I am only addressing the issue of privacy expectations. Communications which might be 'leaked' to the press for example, might very well be inadmissible as evidence and would be subject to the normal rules of evidence, including the rule against hearsay and various priveleges which may be asserted.

Sorry if this sounds 'legalistic', but the nature of the subject requires me to be more detailed than on other subjects.

In any event, if you use your company's computers and write stupid, private things that you would never say in public, well- tough for you if it gets out. Be more prudent.

The old saying, 'Loose lips sink ships' remains applicable regardless of the setting!

Legalistic terms are very apropos in the larger context, and I thank you for being so informative.

I suppose what really bugs me about this is that in this case (not of just the recent "leaks" or "hacking" whichever this turns out to be, but of a lot of the communications that have been put out by both the warring "news" sites) a lot of the material which is being brought to light is that of priests' and bishops' personal e-mail accounts.  Were this just common corporate officers and managers it wouldn't worry me so, but these are people who deal in a high volume of personal information that spans parishes and dioceses.  Though all the e-mails that have been posted so far pertain to the current "scandal" in the OCA someone had to sift through this correspondence, and that someone was certainly not the persons these e-mails were addressed to.  I've written e-mails to priests of parishes I was attending, and in these e-mails were details about my personal life that I wouldn't want just any member of the parish council (or even any priest or bishop that felt he had a right to snoop) to know about.  Suppose my priest were a "person of interest" in this scandal, I would suddenly develop an interest and sinful purpose in determining just who was going through his e-mail (the sinful purpose involving a baseball bat, some barbed wire, possibly a roll of duct-tape, and a predetermined alibi if things went too far) after seeing any of his e-mails linked to some keyboard jockey's blog.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: yeshuaisiam on May 05, 2011, 04:17:58 PM
There's nothing worse than ugliness with bishops.  I remember seeing this a lot growing up in the church.

It's gotten so complicated.  Salvation is our goal, and Christ is the door.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Orual on May 06, 2011, 02:31:39 AM

Thank you, and good moral to the story.

The second question is, do you have to disclose such IT policies to employees, that is through an employee handbook or even a quick blurb during orientation?  Would the OCA have such a broad approach to IT policy given the nature of a lot of priests' and bishops' e-mail correspondence might be confessional in nature or at the very least be related to "counseling"?  This might cause a lot of parishioners to rethink corresponding with priests by e-mail if so.

I wouldn't presume to speak as to the OCA's practice or that of any other Church or not-for profit. We were a 'union' shop with five collective bargaining units and management who have legal protections written in under state law, hence it made sense to promulgate IT regulations and present them to employees at orientation and at periodic continuing education forums.

The advice that is usually dispensed when questions about confidential matters comes up is that you should not commit anything to writing that you do not want to read in another setting. Since local governments are usually bound by state open records law, I always counseled employees to expect the release of any letters or correspondence.

There are of course exceptions to the admissibility of certain communications as evidence in court or administrative proceedings, privileged confidentiality being one of them.(Medical records are a common privilege.)  However, as I stated several posts earlier, I am only addressing the issue of privacy expectations. Communications which might be 'leaked' to the press for example, might very well be inadmissible as evidence and would be subject to the normal rules of evidence, including the rule against hearsay and various priveleges which may be asserted.

Sorry if this sounds 'legalistic', but the nature of the subject requires me to be more detailed than on other subjects.

In any event, if you use your company's computers and write stupid, private things that you would never say in public, well- tough for you if it gets out. Be more prudent.

The old saying, 'Loose lips sink ships' remains applicable regardless of the setting!

Legalistic terms are very apropos in the larger context, and I thank you for being so informative.

I suppose what really bugs me about this is that in this case (not of just the recent "leaks" or "hacking" whichever this turns out to be, but of a lot of the communications that have been put out by both the warring "news" sites) a lot of the material which is being brought to light is that of priests' and bishops' personal e-mail accounts.  Were this just common corporate officers and managers it wouldn't worry me so, but these are people who deal in a high volume of personal information that spans parishes and dioceses.  Though all the e-mails that have been posted so far pertain to the current "scandal" in the OCA someone had to sift through this correspondence, and that someone was certainly not the persons these e-mails were addressed to.  I've written e-mails to priests of parishes I was attending, and in these e-mails were details about my personal life that I wouldn't want just any member of the parish council (or even any priest or bishop that felt he had a right to snoop) to know about.  Suppose my priest were a "person of interest" in this scandal, I would suddenly develop an interest and sinful purpose in determining just who was going through his e-mail (the sinful purpose involving a baseball bat, some barbed wire, possibly a roll of duct-tape, and a predetermined alibi if things went too far) after seeing any of his e-mails linked to some keyboard jockey's blog.

To be fair, the Stokoe, Skordinski, and Solodow emails were all forwarded by legitimate recipients to Bishop Tikhon Fitzgerald; i.e. these were obtained legitimately and without rooting through anyone's personal correspondence.  I don't agree with OCATruth's decisions to post everything they've posted, but as far as I know those three are not problematic in that regard. 

Fr. Joseph Fester, on the other hand, posted proof that his emails were forwarded from someone who accessed his account.  As far as I know, Fr. Joseph has not suffered from a split personality or fugue state.

So, I share your concern about the lack of respect for pastoral privacy that has been going on on all sides, but I think this most recent example demands a better explanation than what has been offered.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: kijabeboy03 on May 06, 2011, 03:17:31 AM
I'm pretty sure Stokoe refuted Fr. Joseph's claim his account was hacked...
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: FormerReformer on May 06, 2011, 09:19:14 AM
I'm pretty sure Stokoe refuted Fr. Joseph's claim his account was hacked...

I don't consider a claim of "No, the e-mail account wasn't hacked, the e-mails were leaked" to be a refutation of any worth.  It's like a five-year old caught with his hand in the cookie jar saying "I'm not stealing the cookie, Daddy said I could have one when I called him on the phone" while holding up his "Cars" branded toy cell phone.  I understand Stokoe wants to protect his sources and all, but my trust in "journalistic integrity" is absolutely nil, even on a Christian news site.

Like I've been saying, the war between the two sites has been ridiculous, even downright childish.  There has been no real debate going on, and nothing with any real substance, no serious claims and refutation.  Just a lot of "Yes, you did! No, I didn't! I'm telling my mom!  Your mom's a stinky pants!  Well, your dad's a doo-doo head!"
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: PrincessMommy on May 06, 2011, 10:21:33 AM


Like I've been saying, the war between the two sites has been ridiculous, even downright childish.  There has been no real debate going on, and nothing with any real substance, no serious claims and refutation.  Just a lot of "Yes, you did! No, I didn't! I'm telling my mom!  Your mom's a stinky pants!  Well, your dad's a doo-doo head!"

OMG!  That is so funny!  And embarrassingly true too.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: podkarpatska on May 06, 2011, 10:36:30 AM
This whole issue about e-mail, and for that matter the use of social media such as youtube or Facebook, does open a whole new area of concern for the privacy and confidentiality of what has historically been held to be privileged communication in terms of pastoral guidance.

I was thinking about this in personal terms. My brother, a priest and pastor, has his own computer which he paid for and which is linked online through Roadrunner. He pays his own cable bill at the rectory and I am sure that rightly so, he considers this computer his personal property and its contents to be his and subject to privacy rights. They are.

HOWEVER, in the Pastor's Office, located in an adjacent building, is another CPU and monitor which are the property of the parish, having been purchased by and maintained with Church funds.

They are linked between the rectory and the office.

He can access his e-mail account on both machines.

People send him e-mail on either his personal account and on the Church account which is not Roadrunner.

I suspect that like most priests he has never considered any of these issues regarding who has the legal right to access the information on the pastor's office computer or that there MAY be a problem with the machines being linked.

Things are fine in the parish. FOR NOW....

We all know personally or through second hand sources of parish situations where the relationship between the parish and its priest has soured and ended badly. Some of these have even ended in civil litigation. Discovery procedures and the production of evidence in civil legal proceedings is extremely broad in this country. We all are well aware of the congregationalist tendencies lurking within most American Orthodox parishes, regardless of jurisdiction. SO...the reality is that opportunities for misuse and mischief abound. So, the moral of the story remains, do not put anything or any comment in an email that you would not be embarrassed about should it be leaked or that you could not defend if called to in a church or civil court proceeding.

The same goes for Youtube. If you put up a  video, use the options to either block comments or require that they be screened.

As for Facebook, if you start a parish site and invite 'fans' or 'friends', BE CAREFUL in who you accept and be quick to delete poisonous comments or pictures or 'unfriend' people if things get out of hand. If you start it, it is your responsibility to monitor the site and keep it honest.

This is a new age and the rules are in flux, so caution should be your guide.

( BTW:  I am curious how physicians and other health care providers deal with these issues. Any first hand knowledge would be helpful to our discussions. Thanks!)
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: FormerReformer on May 06, 2011, 03:01:14 PM
So, the moral of the story remains, do not put anything or any comment in an email that you would not be embarrassed about should it be leaked or that you could not defend if called to in a church or civil court proceeding.


I think my issue still remains to a degree.  Nothing I've ever written to a priest would be "embarrassing" or damning in a church or court proceeding.  But at the same time I am a fairly private person.  When dealing with most of the world I have strict limits as to what information does or does not get revealed about me.  It has nothing to do with embarrassment or fear of reprisal, I just don't think everyone deserves to know every aspect of my personal life.  Relationships with close friends and priests are different stories, both deserve more information, a friend so they can get to know me and a priest so he knows best how to counsel and confess me.  Friends I can usually call at any time; priests tend to have busier schedules, so that it's easier to just fire off an e-mail, especially on the type of stuff that while important can also wait a day or two (as in, I'm not sick to the point of death and in dire need of Holy Unction).  It's not that I would be embarrassed at a parish council member reading my e-mail, I would be outraged and angry.  If I wanted them to know what's going on with my life I would have told them at coffee hour!

I also find it easy to empathize with others, so when I read an account such as that of Fr Joseph I find me placing myself in the shoes of one of his parishioners.  And let me tell you, were I there, I would be at the head of the torch-and-pitchfork squad demanding the head of whoever went through his e-mail, quite probably with a cauldron of boiling tar and sack of feathers in tow.  And I would be extremely displeased with Mr Stokoe for encouraging this sort of behavior, so much so that he would probably not want to run into me in a deserted alley.

Lord, have mercy on us all.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Basil 320 on May 06, 2011, 04:07:31 PM
What is happening in Chicago?
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: ICXCNIKA on May 06, 2011, 09:57:24 PM
The minutes from the Holy Synod have been posted on oca.org
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: TheodoraElizabeth3 on May 07, 2011, 12:01:20 AM
The minutes from the Holy Synod have been posted on oca.org

And I found the most interesting bit to be this, on page 5, under the SMPAC Report heading:

"The Holy Synod instituted a spiritual court to investigate the alleged distribution of confidential and sensitive documents to unauthorized recipients."
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: TheodoraElizabeth3 on May 07, 2011, 12:49:15 AM
decided it was best not to post what I'd written...
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Maria on May 07, 2011, 03:49:05 AM
The minutes from the Holy Synod have been posted on oca.org

And I found the most interesting bit to be this, on page 5, under the SMPAC Report heading:

"The Holy Synod instituted a spiritual court to investigate the alleged distribution of confidential and sensitive documents to unauthorized recipients."


Lord have mercy.

Some Orthodox Priests have stated that there is no real SEAL of confession.
For example, there are some priests whom I just do not trust based on what they have said about others.
Perhaps if there were a seal of confession, and if people involved in pastoral life/metropolitan councils were to observe professional/confessional secrecy to respect the right to privacy, then we would not have all these scandals.

I believe that what Mark Stokoe is doing is highly unprofessional and unethical.
It would be different if the Orthodox Church hired him to do his snooping and reporting, call it what you will.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Basil 320 on May 07, 2011, 06:47:43 AM
Though the minutes are not explicit, I think they represent a mature and amicable path toward resolution of the administrative disagreements that exist between the members of the Synod and the first among them, their primate.  It appears they defined the limits of their primate's unilateral authority, in addition to what the statutes describe.  They seem to have agreed to have Fr. Joseph dismissed from the primatial Cathedral, and to investigate the matter of the leaked e-mail messages.  They also clarified the responsibilities of the Lesser Synod.  If all can adhere to these understandings, the disputes should be minimized.

Never-the-less, I eagerly await the report of OCANews, which will probably explain details, perspectives, tone, and possibly contingencies related to these decisions.

However, I do think, despite all that's been written about political issues related to the disputes which were publically debated over the past few months, Metropolitan Jonah must distance himself from the entire Kondratick cabal, in an very obvious manner.  The advice he receives, some of his actions which end up being controversial, often are tied to Kondratick associates, his former (perhaps current) enablers. I think his opposition is saying, forgiveness, a Christian virtue is of course desireable, but continuing to allow those who were engaged in administrative positions during the financial malfeasance of the Metropolitan Theodosios and Metropolitan Herman administrations (per the SIC Report), to continue in prominent positions, must cease and a clear change must be evident.

The very unfortunate result of the disputes, is Fr. Alexander's removal as Chancellor, who by all accounts served very effectively with dedication and integrity, but for some reason, possibly due to his having allegedly edited the sexual abuse report, is not being reinstated, though his talents are being utilized as "consultant" for the time being, i.e. he gets the privilege of doing the work, but doesn't get the title.  These type of changes are not uncommon with changes of administration, regretfully.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on May 07, 2011, 11:07:16 AM
Though the minutes are not explicit, I think they represent a mature and amicable path toward resolution of the administrative disagreements that exist between the members of the Synod and the first among them, their primate.  It appears they defined the limits of their primate's unilateral authority, in addition to what the statutes describe.  They seem to have agreed to have Fr. Joseph dismissed from the primatial Cathedral, and to investigate the matter of the leaked e-mail messages.  They also clarified the responsibilities of the Lesser Synod.  If all can adhere to these understandings, the disputes should be minimized.

Never-the-less, I eagerly await the report of OCANews, which will probably explain details, perspectives, tone, and possibly contingencies related to these decisions.

However, I do think, despite all that's been written about political issues related to the disputes which were publically debated over the past few months, Metropolitan Jonah must distance himself from the entire Kondratick cabal, in an very obvious manner.  The advice he receives, some of his actions which end up being controversial, often are tied to Kondratick associates, his former (perhaps current) enablers. I think his opposition is saying, forgiveness, a Christian virtue is of course desireable, but continuing to allow those who were engaged in administrative positions during the financial malfeasance of the Metropolitan Theodosios and Metropolitan Herman administrations (per the SIC Report), to continue in prominent positions, must cease and a clear change must be evident.

The very unfortunate result of the disputes, is Fr. Alexander's removal as Chancellor, who by all accounts served very effectively with dedication and integrity, but for some reason, possibly due to his having allegedly edited the sexual abuse report, is not being reinstated, though his talents are being utilized as "consultant" for the time being, i.e. he gets the privilege of doing the work, but doesn't get the title.  These type of changes are not uncommon with changes of administration, regretfully.

This is a most astute analysis of the reporting from OCA.org. I am glad that the Holy Synod emphasized Apostolioc Canon 34 rather than the model of expanded powers of the head of a local church vis-a-vis his brother diocesans.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: podkarpatska on May 07, 2011, 11:12:56 AM
So, the moral of the story remains, do not put anything or any comment in an email that you would not be embarrassed about should it be leaked or that you could not defend if called to in a church or civil court proceeding.


I think my issue still remains to a degree.  Nothing I've ever written to a priest would be "embarrassing" or damning in a church or court proceeding.  But at the same time I am a fairly private person.  When dealing with most of the world I have strict limits as to what information does or does not get revealed about me.  It has nothing to do with embarrassment or fear of reprisal, I just don't think everyone deserves to know every aspect of my personal life.  Relationships with close friends and priests are different stories, both deserve more information, a friend so they can get to know me and a priest so he knows best how to counsel and confess me.  Friends I can usually call at any time; priests tend to have busier schedules, so that it's easier to just fire off an e-mail, especially on the type of stuff that while important can also wait a day or two (as in, I'm not sick to the point of death and in dire need of Holy Unction).  It's not that I would be embarrassed at a parish council member reading my e-mail, I would be outraged and angry.  If I wanted them to know what's going on with my life I would have told them at coffee hour!

I also find it easy to empathize with others, so when I read an account such as that of Fr Joseph I find me placing myself in the shoes of one of his parishioners.  And let me tell you, were I there, I would be at the head of the torch-and-pitchfork squad demanding the head of whoever went through his e-mail, quite probably with a cauldron of boiling tar and sack of feathers in tow.  And I would be extremely displeased with Mr Stokoe for encouraging this sort of behavior, so much so that he would probably not want to run into me in a deserted alley.

Lord, have mercy on us all.

I want to make my position clear in non-lawyer terms. I think that what occurred with the e-mails stinks, to put it bluntly and that from a Christian moral perspective the publication of the same was morally wrong and reprehensible. The proper thing for one to have done in my opinion would have been to approach my hierarch, ask for a private meeting, share the material with him and ask that he bring the matter forward for the Synod to address.

Over the course of my life, given my involvement with the clergy and my involvement over the years in issues of church administration, I have been made aware of plenty of stupid and pig-headed things done and said by priests, lay administrators and yes, even Bishops. HOWEVER, there is a right way and a wrong way to deal with those problems and taking them to the public in any manner EXCEPT as a LAST RESORT strikes me as being inherently harmful to the Church as a whole.

I can speak from the heart on this as my father and his father and father-in-law were deeply involved in the schism within American Greek Catholicism in the 1930's. The leaders of the movement upset with Rome worked for YEARS within the proper channels of the Church to try to rectify the injustices that were occurring. Only when it became clear, as a matter of conscience did they take the final, public steps which led to the break with Rome and the return to Orthodoxy.

To quote the last word's of Sir Thomas More as he approached his fate on the scaffold of Henry VIII, "The King's good servant, but God's First."
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on May 07, 2011, 06:23:32 PM
I pray that the Holy Synod's actions (as well as inactions) will be definitive and that calm will reign for the foreseable future. I am glad that +Jonah remains as our Metropolitan; the relationships between our bishops, the metropolitan and chancery officers have been clarified; and our leaders have acted wisely and prudently.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: ilyazhito on May 07, 2011, 10:56:57 PM

[img width=300pt]http://www.oca.org/Images/News/2008/2008-1112-jonah.jpg[/img]

Isa, what on earth is this?  Bishop Tikhon say that Metropoliatn Jonah has been placed on mandatory leave of absence.  Is it just a joke?
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind1102D&L=ORTHODOX&T=0&F=&S=&P=13719

According a blog that's reporting the info (which was most likely sent by Bishop TIKHON using his pre-ordination name), after they received the message they called a friend, who "verified" the info with a "very senior priest" in the OCA.  There is as yet no info on oca.org or ocanews.org.  I'm a bit skeptical, but it's a bit early for April Fool's Day, too.

Here another location: http://02varvara.wordpress.com/
Voices from Russia, NY. The National Enquirer of Orthodoxy.  I just was looking at something he posted right after Bishop Jonah was consecrated.  None of the predictions he made then have come to pass.


Quote
Another location: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Irenikon/message/44049 (note the reply at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Irenikon/message/44060 )
Lee Fitzgerald isn't Bishop Tikhon's pre-ordination name. Not even close.
Ah. I see they mean the retired Bishop Tikhon. My bad.

Still, I'll find out, Lord willing.
By the way, the retired Bishop Tikhon's pre-monastic name is Stephen, not Lee. I give Metropolitan Jonah my vote of confidence.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Boswell on May 08, 2011, 01:42:01 PM

[img width=300pt]http://www.oca.org/Images/News/2008/2008-1112-jonah.jpg[/img]

Isa, what on earth is this?  Bishop Tikhon say that Metropoliatn Jonah has been placed on mandatory leave of absence.  Is it just a joke?
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind1102D&L=ORTHODOX&T=0&F=&S=&P=13719

According a blog that's reporting the info (which was most likely sent by Bishop TIKHON using his pre-ordination name), after they received the message they called a friend, who "verified" the info with a "very senior priest" in the OCA.  There is as yet no info on oca.org or ocanews.org.  I'm a bit skeptical, but it's a bit early for April Fool's Day, too.

Here another location: http://02varvara.wordpress.com/
Voices from Russia, NY. The National Enquirer of Orthodoxy.  I just was looking at something he posted right after Bishop Jonah was consecrated.  None of the predictions he made then have come to pass.


Quote
Another location: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Irenikon/message/44049 (note the reply at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Irenikon/message/44060 )
Lee Fitzgerald isn't Bishop Tikhon's pre-ordination name. Not even close.
Ah. I see they mean the retired Bishop Tikhon. My bad.

Still, I'll find out, Lord willing.
By the way, the retired Bishop Tikhon's pre-monastic name is Stephen, not Lee. I give Metropolitan Jonah my vote of confidence.

Yes, Lee is the retired bishop's birth name; Stephen I believe the name he took after he became ordained (as a celibate deacon/priest-an oddity I believe in Russian Orthodoxy), and Tikhon the name he took as his name upon consecration in the late 80s. I'm pretty sure if you search the Indiana List archives he's explained it all a bazillion times since the mid 90s (he does love to brag about his past).

As for me, I just love hard core converts getting their hands dirty in culture wars shenanigans, whilst half the OCAs current and retired bishops seem to be not so closeted homosexuals. Ah, the hypocrisy of traditional religion for ya.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Asteriktos on May 08, 2011, 01:48:58 PM
As for me, I just love hard core converts getting their hands dirty in culture wars shenanigans, whilst half the OCAs current and retired bishops seem to be not so closeted homosexuals. Ah, the hypocrisy of traditional religion for ya.

 :D
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Quinault on May 08, 2011, 04:48:33 PM
Is there any evidence to back up your assertion that "half the OCAs current and retired bishops seem to be not so closeted homosexuals"?
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: SubdeaconDavid on May 08, 2011, 05:09:27 PM
As for me, I just love hard core converts getting their hands dirty in culture wars shenanigans, whilst half the OCAs current and retired bishops seem to be not so closeted homosexuals. Ah, the hypocrisy of traditional religion for ya.

 :D
I am one convertski not wanting to at all buy into the very unfortunate politics of the OCA leadership. Through my ROCOR influenced lenses from Australia:
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 08, 2011, 09:08:26 PM
As for me, I just love hard core converts getting their hands dirty in culture wars shenanigans, whilst half the OCAs current and retired bishops seem to be not so closeted homosexuals.
"Seem to be not so closeted homosexuals..." What leads you to say this? ???
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on May 08, 2011, 09:15:08 PM
As for me, I just love hard core converts getting their hands dirty in culture wars shenanigans, whilst half the OCAs current and retired bishops seem to be not so closeted homosexuals. Ah, the hypocrisy of traditional religion for ya.

 :D
I am one convertski not wanting to at all buy into the very unfortunate politics of the OCA leadership. Through my ROCOR influenced lenses from Australia:
  • Metropolitan Jonah has been a courageous and visionary leader unwilling to be silent about issues such as abortion, which is a moral blight on all Orthodox Christians who tolerate it.
    Metropolitan Jonah had clear[reasons as a monk for starting a monastery and wanting the Old Calendar, and for successfully advocating to the then OCA leadership who blessed it.
    Clearly he is ethically motivated and I pray that the Lord will allow him to continue with his process of challenging the OCA with leadership and prayer and engagement./li]

I was wondering when your mania would be put on the table.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on May 08, 2011, 09:21:34 PM

[img width=300pt]http://www.oca.org/Images/News/2008/2008-1112-jonah.jpg[/img]

Isa, what on earth is this?  Bishop Tikhon say that Metropoliatn Jonah has been placed on mandatory leave of absence.  Is it just a joke?
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind1102D&L=ORTHODOX&T=0&F=&S=&P=13719

According a blog that's reporting the info (which was most likely sent by Bishop TIKHON using his pre-ordination name), after they received the message they called a friend, who "verified" the info with a "very senior priest" in the OCA.  There is as yet no info on oca.org or ocanews.org.  I'm a bit skeptical, but it's a bit early for April Fool's Day, too.

Here another location: http://02varvara.wordpress.com/
Voices from Russia, NY. The National Enquirer of Orthodoxy.  I just was looking at something he posted right after Bishop Jonah was consecrated.  None of the predictions he made then have come to pass.


Quote
Another location: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Irenikon/message/44049 (note the reply at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Irenikon/message/44060 )
Lee Fitzgerald isn't Bishop Tikhon's pre-ordination name. Not even close.
Ah. I see they mean the retired Bishop Tikhon. My bad.

Still, I'll find out, Lord willing.
By the way, the retired Bishop Tikhon's pre-monastic name is Stephen, not Lee. I give Metropolitan Jonah my vote of confidence.

Yes, Lee is the retired bishop's birth name; Stephen I believe the name he took after he became ordained (as a celibate deacon/priest-an oddity I believe in Russian Orthodoxy), and Tikhon the name he took as his name upon consecration in the late 80s. I'm pretty sure if you search the Indiana List archives he's explained it all a bazillion times since the mid 90s (he does love to brag about his past).

As for me, I just love hard core converts getting their hands dirty in culture wars shenanigans, whilst half the OCAs current and retired bishops seem to be not so closeted homosexuals. Ah, the hypocrisy of traditional religion for ya.

Lotsd of assumptions here, one of which is that the issue is not the relationship between the metropolitan and his fellow bishops, but culture wars, centered on homosexuality. I don't believe that the latter is the case, but I am curious of one thing: Which direction do you think that the Church should go, toward ECUSA or the strong stance taken by the ROC?
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: SubdeaconDavid on May 08, 2011, 09:27:49 PM
As for me, I just love hard core converts getting their hands dirty in culture wars shenanigans, whilst half the OCAs current and retired bishops seem to be not so closeted homosexuals. Ah, the hypocrisy of traditional religion for ya.

 :D
I am one convertski not wanting to at all buy into the very unfortunate politics of the OCA leadership. Through my ROCOR influenced lenses from Australia:
  • Metropolitan Jonah has been a courageous and visionary leader unwilling to be silent about issues such as abortion, which is a moral blight on all Orthodox Christians who tolerate it.
    Metropolitan Jonah had clear[reasons as a monk for starting a monastery and wanting the Old Calendar, and for successfully advocating to the then OCA leadership who blessed it.
    Clearly he is ethically motivated and I pray that the Lord will allow him to continue with his process of challenging the OCA with leadership and prayer and engagement./li]

I was wondering when your mania would be put on the table.
Thanks for your charitable quip - a cheap snipe.  The point I was making was the Vladyka Jonah is clearly a man motivated by principle.  Principle in relation to the calendar issue in the case of his monastery - or do you call it mania that he wanted his monastery to observe the traditional Julian Calendar? Principle in relation to abortion and homosexuality.  Principle in the positive way he has related to the Russian Church Abroad and the Moscow Patriarchate.  The handing to ROCOR's jurisdiction of the OCA parishes in Australia post 2007 is testament to that. 

May God save Vladyka Jonah for the OCA's benefit.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: ICXCNIKA on May 08, 2011, 11:26:52 PM
The Holy Synod has been fair. Hopefully, this will lead to stronger relations between all its members. However, I hope that the Holy Synod comes up with a policy to deal with the blogosphere and laypeople/clergy that make wild accusations yet offer no proof. This is unacceptable. We can have honest disagreements we can even report the news but it must be in an honest, respectful and dispassioned way. I find it very unfortunate that character assassination has been allowed to go on unchecked. Forgive me if my words offend any of you. Please pray for me and for all of our Bishops. Christ is Risen!
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Irish_Melkite on May 09, 2011, 01:39:18 PM

Lord have mercy.

Some Orthodox Priests have stated that there is no real SEAL of confession.
For example, there are some priests whom I just do not trust based on what they have said about others.

For a priest to say that is a frightening thing.  I once asked a GOA priest what would happen if he revealed a confession without the penitent's permission.  His answer was, "automatic de-frocking and excommunication."   If other priests are saying there's no seal.... sound like some preists need some arse-kicking remedical training.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Orual on May 09, 2011, 02:17:39 PM

Lord have mercy.

Some Orthodox Priests have stated that there is no real SEAL of confession.
For example, there are some priests whom I just do not trust based on what they have said about others.

For a priest to say that is a frightening thing.  I once asked a GOA priest what would happen if he revealed a confession without the penitent's permission.  His answer was, "automatic de-frocking and excommunication."   If other priests are saying there's no seal.... sound like some preists need some arse-kicking remedical training.

When talking about the "seal of confession", it is important to say precisely what is being talked about.

There's no "seal" in the sense that the Orthodox priest cannot act on information he has received in confession.  Actually, if someone comes to an Orthodox priest and says, "I molest my child and can't stop myself," the priest may go to child services and inform them that this child is in danger.  As I understand it, Roman Catholic priests may not do this because of their concept of the "seal of confession".

There is certainly a seal, though, in the sense that he cannot tell them "This man molests his daughter"; if he did so, he'd be defrocked.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: orthonorm on May 09, 2011, 02:28:13 PM

Lord have mercy.

Some Orthodox Priests have stated that there is no real SEAL of confession.
For example, there are some priests whom I just do not trust based on what they have said about others.

For a priest to say that is a frightening thing.  I once asked a GOA priest what would happen if he revealed a confession without the penitent's permission.  His answer was, "automatic de-frocking and excommunication."   If other priests are saying there's no seal.... sound like some preists need some arse-kicking remedical training.

When talking about the "seal of confession", it is important to say precisely what is being talked about.

There's no "seal" in the sense that the Orthodox priest cannot act on information he has received in confession.  Actually, if someone comes to an Orthodox priest and says, "I molest my child and can't stop myself," the priest may go to child services and inform them that this child is in danger.  As I understand it, Roman Catholic priests may not do this because of their concept of the "seal of confession".

There is certainly a seal, though, in the sense that he cannot tell them "This man molests his daughter"; if he did so, he'd be defrocked.

Actually, under the circumstances you described they are breaking the law if they do not report such "confessions" to the authorities. If they believe the threat to the child is real, sincere, and reasonably certain to happen, they must report it. Otherwise they are accessories after the fact, if the case ever finds its way to the light of day and the Priest is found to have had knowledge of the abuse. This is of course in the US.

The above applies to lawyers, physicians, mental health professionals, etc.

Past crimes of such a nature: murder and child abuse get a little murkier, but not much. Word to the wise, if you have committed such acts and are no longer doing so and you want to keep your Priest or therapist from a lot of soul searching, skip the details.

The seal ain't meant to provide catharsis for people who compulsively prey on others.

If a RC Priest uses the seal in this manner, Lord have mercy!
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Asteriktos on May 09, 2011, 02:39:36 PM
A quote from the Orthodox priest, and admin of this board, Fr. Chris:

Nothing told to Christ in Confession and witnessed by me can be divulged. Full stop.

However, there is always the counseling after the confession. Yes, if/when criminal activity is confessed, I do my best to reinforce to the penitent the importance of being repentant, part of which is setting the record straight.

Yes, I've driven children to stores to apologize to the store owner for stealing something, but it's the child who does all the talking; I say nothing.

If a person confesses something criminal to me that would be such as murder, child molestation, etc I would do all I could to help the penitent go to the legal authorities and help the victim or family have peace of mind. Thank God nothing like that has occurred yet....I have enough trouble with 'incense getting in my eyes' when hearing the pain caused to my parishioners from "every day" sins, and nothing as demonic as violent crime.

But, nothing said in Confession can be divulged. Ever.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12542.0.html (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12542.0.html)
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: smithakd on May 09, 2011, 06:24:53 PM
The handing to ROCOR's jurisdiction of the OCA parishes in Australia post 2007 is testament to that. 

Just a small thing, Sdn: the three parishes that were the OCA Parishes in Australia actually went three different ways at different times.  The first went to the Antiochian Archdiocese around 2001, the second went to ROCOR in 2009 and the third went to the Serbian Diocese in 2011.

All three were priestless at the time that they change jurisdictions; and, as a fact of curiousity, the latter two became English-language parishes in their new jurisdictions.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: lubeltri on May 14, 2011, 03:56:28 PM
Mr. Dreher was outed as the man behind "OCATruth". What a ridiculous character he is!

I admit to missing reading Rod Dreher's old blog, but it seems like I've missed his juicy new one! The whole kerfuffle is positively bizarre and byzantine. I'm afraid I don't understand it at all, though after reading some of "Muzhak"'s posts, Dreher sticks right out like a sore thumb. I'm surprised he thought he could keep it on the down-low. He didn't even seem to try to disguise his writing.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: orthonorm on May 14, 2011, 03:59:42 PM
A quote from the Orthodox priest, and admin of this board, Fr. Chris:

Nothing told to Christ in Confession and witnessed by me can be divulged. Full stop.

However, there is always the counseling after the confession. Yes, if/when criminal activity is confessed, I do my best to reinforce to the penitent the importance of being repentant, part of which is setting the record straight.

Yes, I've driven children to stores to apologize to the store owner for stealing something, but it's the child who does all the talking; I say nothing.

If a person confesses something criminal to me that would be such as murder, child molestation, etc I would do all I could to help the penitent go to the legal authorities and help the victim or family have peace of mind. Thank God nothing like that has occurred yet....I have enough trouble with 'incense getting in my eyes' when hearing the pain caused to my parishioners from "every day" sins, and nothing as demonic as violent crime.

But, nothing said in Confession can be divulged. Ever.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12542.0.html (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12542.0.html)

Still doesn't mean Father wouldn't be breaking the law. I guess he would have to confess that . . . But then to set that right, he would have to . . .

Gotta love Catch-22s.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: lubeltri on May 14, 2011, 06:05:35 PM
Rod Dreher posted this last week:

And by the way, George, I do think it is obvious that the OCA is now run by people who think it’s okay to make management decisions based on information illegally gotten, as long as it benefits power-holders. I think it’s also clear that, as others have said, if the MC ends today with Stokoe still holding his seat (as I expect it will), that being openly gay is no impediment to serving on the Metropolitan Council.

It is useful to have gotten these clarifications about the situation we are in. People — and parishes, and perhaps even dioceses — will now have decisions to make.


http://www.monomakhos.com/2011/05/turd-blossoms-and-anonymity/

:o Could something like this really happen?

Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: augustin717 on May 14, 2011, 06:17:34 PM
Can't wait to see what his next "true church" will be. Tibetan buddhism, maybe? If they are gay-obsessed of course.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: lubeltri on May 14, 2011, 06:37:52 PM
Can't wait to see what his next "true church" will be. Tibetan buddhism, maybe? If they are gay-obsessed of course.

Haha, maybe you're right  ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kstH-8jwa80
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: PrincessMommy on May 14, 2011, 07:38:09 PM
Can't wait to see what his next "true church" will be. Tibetan buddhism, maybe? If they are gay-obsessed of course.

I've been wondering the same thing.  He seems like a butterfly flitting from flower to flower.  Part of my problem is partly due to so many being quick to put him on some kind of Spiritual pedestal right after his conversion.  I know it's got to be difficult when your job is talking about religion and you keep changing your allegiances.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: tuesdayschild on May 14, 2011, 08:27:28 PM
so many being quick to put him on some kind of Spiritual pedestal right after his conversion.

Happens to athletes all the time. Pray for Troy P. (Lord, have mercy.)
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: IreneOlinyk on May 15, 2011, 08:58:05 AM
Rod Dreher posted this last week:

And by the way, George, I do think it is obvious that the OCA is now run by people who think it’s okay to make management decisions based on information illegally gotten, as long as it benefits power-holders. I think it’s also clear that, as others have said, if the MC ends today with Stokoe still holding his seat (as I expect it will), that being openly gay is no impediment to serving on the Metropolitan Council.

It is useful to have gotten these clarifications about the situation we are in. People — and parishes, and perhaps even dioceses — will now have decisions to make.


http://www.monomakhos.com/2011/05/turd-blossoms-and-anonymity/

:o Could something like this really happen?



Will Rod ever take respobsibility for what he contributed to the problem?  Aiding athe start of a web site to manipulate people's opinions and a web site using pseudunymns with postings by himself and an OCA priest.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: TinaG on May 15, 2011, 10:16:47 AM

Will Rod ever take respobsibility for what he contributed to the problem?  Aiding athe start of a web site to manipulate people's opinions and a web site using pseudunymns with postings by himself and an OCA priest.
[/quote]

Yes, I hope he and his fellow OCA Truth bloggers takes responsibility for (1) bringing out into the clear light what is happening with the OCA, (2) for giving us an alternative to the malignant and hateful "news" from Mark Stokoe's site, (3) for shaking us out of our complacence, and (4) making us realize what we have to lose (and I fear what we have already lost).  Can any of us say we did anything more productive except make idle speculations, wring our hands or get off on rabbit trails about anonymity?  I am sick to death of the whole OCA mess and feel like these crooks and manipulators have taken something precious away from me.  20 years I've been in the OCA and truly supported it.  But now, if there were a ROCOR parish in my town I'd be sorely tempted to bail.   I'm not there yet.  Met. Jonah is still our leader and I am willing to keep going, and I hope OCA Truth keeps going as well.  
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: katherine 2001 on May 15, 2011, 11:03:38 AM

Will Rod ever take respobsibility for what he contributed to the problem?  Aiding athe start of a web site to manipulate people's opinions and a web site using pseudunymns with postings by himself and an OCA priest.

Yes, I hope he and his fellow OCA Truth bloggers takes responsibility for (1) bringing out into the clear light what is happening with the OCA, (2) for giving us an alternative to the malignant and hateful "news" from Mark Stokoe's site, (3) for shaking us out of our complacence, and (4) making us realize what we have to lose (and I fear what we have already lost).  Can any of us say we did anything more productive except make idle speculations, wring our hands or get off on rabbit trails about anonymity?  I am sick to death of the whole OCA mess and feel like these crooks and manipulators have taken something precious away from me.  20 years I've been in the OCA and truly supported it.  But now, if there were a ROCOR parish in my town I'd be sorely tempted to bail.   I'm not there yet.  Met. Jonah is still our leader and I am willing to keep going, and I hope OCA Truth keeps going as well.  
[/quote]

I agree with you, Tina.  I believe that +Metropolitan JONAH's real crime to MS is that he dared to sign the Manhattan Declaration which is the Orthodox believe about same-sex relationships and marriage.  Considering the allegations about MS and his lifestyle, it might explain a lot.  Personally, I think MS and some of the others wanted +Metropolitan HERMAN out, but they didn't want things to change otherwise.  I think that when +Metropolitan JONAH came down so hard on same-sex relationships and marriage, he opened a can of worms because that has been going on in OCA leadership for a long time.  I think Syosset is afraid of true monastics being in charge.  You see, they actually believe in the teachings of the Orthodox Church and might actually try to put them in effect.

By the way, Tina, going to ROCOR or other jurisdictions wouldn't get you out of scandal.  I've only been Orthodox for 10 years, but in that time every single jurisdiction.  I am staying in the OCA and fighting for it.  If it takes the MP only recognizing +Metropolitan JONAH and the bishops that support him, then so be it.  From what I understand, the MP supports +Metropolitan JONAH all the way.  But then, they don't have the problem the OCA does--they won't tolerate it.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: podkarpatska on May 15, 2011, 01:14:51 PM


I agree with you, Tina.  I believe that +Metropolitan JONAH's real crime to MS is that he dared to sign the Manhattan Declaration which is the Orthodox believe about same-sex relationships and marriage.  Considering the allegations about MS and his lifestyle, it might explain a lot.  Personally, I think MS and some of the others wanted +Metropolitan HERMAN out, but they didn't want things to change otherwise.  I think that when +Metropolitan JONAH came down so hard on same-sex relationships and marriage, he opened a can of worms because that has been going on in OCA leadership for a long time.  I think Syosset is afraid of true monastics being in charge.  You see, they actually believe in the teachings of the Orthodox Church and might actually try to put them in effect.

By the way, Tina, going to ROCOR or other jurisdictions wouldn't get you out of scandal.  I've only been Orthodox for 10 years, but in that time every single jurisdiction.  I am staying in the OCA and fighting for it.  If it takes the MP only recognizing +Metropolitan JONAH and the bishops that support him, then so be it.  From what I understand, the MP supports +Metropolitan JONAH all the way.  But then, they don't have the problem the OCA does--they won't tolerate it.

Even though I am not in the OCA I am close enough to have my own point of view, so, I have to reply.  

Simply stated, the dispute between Metropolitan Jonah and some of his fellow Bishops is NOT a simple conflict between the left and right sides of American politics - certainly at least as it applies to the so-called social issues. You can't believe propaganda from the side you 'like' in a dispute and accept everything you hear in terms of rumor and innuendoes about Bishops, priests and lifestyles etc...

Secondly, it is a stretch of great proportions to believe that signing the Manhattan Declaration, certainly as it related to the social issues such as abortion or gay marriage,  had a lasting, significant impact on anything or anyone within the Orthodox Church. (The truth of the matter is that many of the leaders of that movement have little but contempt for our Apostolic tradition and either Orthodox or Roman Christianity. Perhaps Metropolitan Jonah could communicate with them in a way the rest of the hierarchs could not in terms of his personal experiences in Protestantism or they view him in a different way because of his own journey into Orthodoxy. Either way, this is a non-issue. The fact that he signed it not in a personal manner, but as Primate certainly could give one the impression that the entirety of the politics expressed therein was somehow the policy position of the entire OCA.)   The hue and cry of the newly converted that somehow we pre-existing Orthodox are 'soft' on the political agenda of the 'religious right' as the the social issues component of that agenda borders on laughable. Sorry to disillusion many of you but Metropolitan Nicholas of ACROD and Metropolitan Herman of the OCA were on the front lines of the March for Life before most of the readers here were either born or converted.  Sorry, but the truth hurts. And as to the MP not 'tolerating' the 'problem' the OCA allegedly has? Don't idealize them, they have plenty of their own problems.

But  the comment that upset me on a personal level was the one that monastics somehow present a more perfect view of the church than to the rest of the clergy. Monks are no more the answer to the problems of the Church than excluding them would be an alternative answer. I would submit to you that your most recent Bishops of the OCA, Michael and Matthias, were never true monastic priestly vocations. Both are widowers and were ordained as married, parish priests where each served with distinction and honor for decades. Should they not have been chosen? I have been honored to be a friend of each of them for most of my life and I can assure you that each of them possess the proper 'duch' or 'spirit' to be excellent shepherds of their Dioceses.

My father, my uncle, my godfather and my brother dedicated their lives to the Orthodox Church as married parish priests and you and others will never ever diminish the value of their ministry or their priesthood with the type of snide comment about existing Church leadership being afraid of monastics for their 'actually believing in the teachings of the Orthodox Church.'

Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: FormerReformer on May 15, 2011, 01:38:50 PM


I agree with you, Tina.  I believe that +Metropolitan JONAH's real crime to MS is that he dared to sign the Manhattan Declaration which is the Orthodox believe about same-sex relationships and marriage.  Considering the allegations about MS and his lifestyle, it might explain a lot.  Personally, I think MS and some of the others wanted +Metropolitan HERMAN out, but they didn't want things to change otherwise.  I think that when +Metropolitan JONAH came down so hard on same-sex relationships and marriage, he opened a can of worms because that has been going on in OCA leadership for a long time.  I think Syosset is afraid of true monastics being in charge.  You see, they actually believe in the teachings of the Orthodox Church and might actually try to put them in effect.

By the way, Tina, going to ROCOR or other jurisdictions wouldn't get you out of scandal.  I've only been Orthodox for 10 years, but in that time every single jurisdiction.  I am staying in the OCA and fighting for it.  If it takes the MP only recognizing +Metropolitan JONAH and the bishops that support him, then so be it.  From what I understand, the MP supports +Metropolitan JONAH all the way.  But then, they don't have the problem the OCA does--they won't tolerate it.

Even though I am not in the OCA I am close enough to have my own point of view, so, I have to reply.  

Simply stated, the dispute between Metropolitan Jonah and some of his fellow Bishops is NOT a simple conflict between the left and right sides of American politics - certainly at least as it applies to the so-called social issues. You can't believe propaganda from the side you 'like' in a dispute and accept everything you hear in terms of rumor and innuendoes about Bishops, priests and lifestyles etc...

Secondly, it is a stretch of great proportions to believe that signing the Manhattan Declaration, certainly as it related to the social issues such as abortion or gay marriage,  had a lasting, significant impact on anything or anyone within the Orthodox Church. (The truth of the matter is that many of the leaders of that movement have little but contempt for our Apostolic tradition and either Orthodox or Roman Christianity. Perhaps Metropolitan Jonah could communicate with them in a way the rest of the hierarchs could not in terms of his personal experiences in Protestantism or they view him in a different way because of his own journey into Orthodoxy. Either way, this is a non-issue. The fact that he signed it not in a personal manner, but as Primate certainly could give one the impression that the entirety of the politics expressed therein was somehow the policy position of the entire OCA.)   The hue and cry of the newly converted that somehow we pre-existing Orthodox are 'soft' on the political agenda of the 'religious right' as the the social issues component of that agenda borders on laughable. Sorry to disillusion many of you but Metropolitan Nicholas of ACROD and Metropolitan Herman of the OCA were on the front lines of the March for Life before most of the readers here were either born or converted.  Sorry, but the truth hurts. And as to the MP not 'tolerating' the 'problem' the OCA allegedly has? Don't idealize them, they have plenty of their own problems.

But  the comment that upset me on a personal level was the one that monastics somehow present a more perfect view of the church than to the rest of the clergy. Monks are no more the answer to the problems of the Church than excluding them would be an alternative answer. I would submit to you that your most recent Bishops of the OCA, Michael and Matthias, were never true monastic priestly vocations. Both are widowers and were ordained as married, parish priests where each served with distinction and honor for decades. Should they not have been chosen? I have been honored to be a friend of each of them for most of my life and I can assure you that each of them possess the proper 'duch' or 'spirit' to be excellent shepherds of their Dioceses.

My father, my uncle, my godfather and my brother dedicated their lives to the Orthodox Church as married parish priests and you and others will never ever diminish the value of their ministry or their priesthood with the type of snide comment about existing Church leadership being afraid of monastics for their 'actually believing in the teachings of the Orthodox Church.'



Excellent reply, except for one minor detail--

I don't think the above posters were being snide about widowed priests becoming bishops, rather I think the problem is a suspicion of non-widowed unmarried priests who have never been monastics.  From reading the various blogs surrounding the current curflupple the two new bishops are being lauded by the pro-+Jonah side as being exactly what the doctor ordered, but if you can't get widowed priests (the previous marriage being proof of their manliness) then by all means go to the monastery (because an unmarried priest is "suspect" in all the current connotations the word implies).

Of course, such opinions show that one has not been keeping up-to-date with all our monastery scandals....
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: podkarpatska on May 15, 2011, 01:46:00 PM


I agree with you, Tina.  I believe that +Metropolitan JONAH's real crime to MS is that he dared to sign the Manhattan Declaration which is the Orthodox believe about same-sex relationships and marriage.  Considering the allegations about MS and his lifestyle, it might explain a lot.  Personally, I think MS and some of the others wanted +Metropolitan HERMAN out, but they didn't want things to change otherwise.  I think that when +Metropolitan JONAH came down so hard on same-sex relationships and marriage, he opened a can of worms because that has been going on in OCA leadership for a long time.  I think Syosset is afraid of true monastics being in charge.  You see, they actually believe in the teachings of the Orthodox Church and might actually try to put them in effect.

By the way, Tina, going to ROCOR or other jurisdictions wouldn't get you out of scandal.  I've only been Orthodox for 10 years, but in that time every single jurisdiction.  I am staying in the OCA and fighting for it.  If it takes the MP only recognizing +Metropolitan JONAH and the bishops that support him, then so be it.  From what I understand, the MP supports +Metropolitan JONAH all the way.  But then, they don't have the problem the OCA does--they won't tolerate it.

Even though I am not in the OCA I am close enough to have my own point of view, so, I have to reply.  

Simply stated, the dispute between Metropolitan Jonah and some of his fellow Bishops is NOT a simple conflict between the left and right sides of American politics - certainly at least as it applies to the so-called social issues. You can't believe propaganda from the side you 'like' in a dispute and accept everything you hear in terms of rumor and innuendoes about Bishops, priests and lifestyles etc...

Secondly, it is a stretch of great proportions to believe that signing the Manhattan Declaration, certainly as it related to the social issues such as abortion or gay marriage,  had a lasting, significant impact on anything or anyone within the Orthodox Church. (The truth of the matter is that many of the leaders of that movement have little but contempt for our Apostolic tradition and either Orthodox or Roman Christianity. Perhaps Metropolitan Jonah could communicate with them in a way the rest of the hierarchs could not in terms of his personal experiences in Protestantism or they view him in a different way because of his own journey into Orthodoxy. Either way, this is a non-issue. The fact that he signed it not in a personal manner, but as Primate certainly could give one the impression that the entirety of the politics expressed therein was somehow the policy position of the entire OCA.)   The hue and cry of the newly converted that somehow we pre-existing Orthodox are 'soft' on the political agenda of the 'religious right' as the the social issues component of that agenda borders on laughable. Sorry to disillusion many of you but Metropolitan Nicholas of ACROD and Metropolitan Herman of the OCA were on the front lines of the March for Life before most of the readers here were either born or converted.  Sorry, but the truth hurts. And as to the MP not 'tolerating' the 'problem' the OCA allegedly has? Don't idealize them, they have plenty of their own problems.

But  the comment that upset me on a personal level was the one that monastics somehow present a more perfect view of the church than to the rest of the clergy. Monks are no more the answer to the problems of the Church than excluding them would be an alternative answer. I would submit to you that your most recent Bishops of the OCA, Michael and Matthias, were never true monastic priestly vocations. Both are widowers and were ordained as married, parish priests where each served with distinction and honor for decades. Should they not have been chosen? I have been honored to be a friend of each of them for most of my life and I can assure you that each of them possess the proper 'duch' or 'spirit' to be excellent shepherds of their Dioceses.

My father, my uncle, my godfather and my brother dedicated their lives to the Orthodox Church as married parish priests and you and others will never ever diminish the value of their ministry or their priesthood with the type of snide comment about existing Church leadership being afraid of monastics for their 'actually believing in the teachings of the Orthodox Church.'



Excellent reply, except for one minor detail--

I don't think the above posters were being snide about widowed priests becoming bishops, rather I think the problem is a suspicion of non-widowed unmarried priests who have never been monastics.  From reading the various blogs surrounding the current curflupple the two new bishops are being lauded by the pro-+Jonah side as being exactly what the doctor ordered, but if you can't get widowed priests (the previous marriage being proof of their manliness) then by all means go to the monastery (because an unmarried priest is "suspect" in all the current connotations the word implies).

Of course, such opinions show that one has not been keeping up-to-date with all our monastery scandals....

I have the highest respect for monasteries and monasticism. However, please don't think that monastery shortcomings or even scandals are unique to the OCA here in America. There are always bad apples in any batch. We just have to struggle to overcome them. (And, for what it is worth, I also knew the other OCA bishops who were products, or cast-offs if you will, from ACROD who were neither widowed priests nor true monastics and you will note my silence as to them in contrast to my oft-stated positive opinions concerning Bishops Michael and Matthias. As my mom always pounded into me, if you don't have anything nice to say....say nothing.)
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: FormerReformer on May 15, 2011, 01:59:19 PM

Of course, such opinions show that one has not been keeping up-to-date with all our monastery scandals....

I have the highest respect for monasteries and monasticism. However, please don't think that monastery shortcomings or even scandals are unique to the OCA here in America. There are always bad apples in any batch. We just have to struggle to overcome them. (And, for what it is worth, I also knew the other OCA bishops who were products, or cast-offs if you will, from ACROD who were neither widowed priests nor true monastics and you will note my silence as to them in contrast to my oft-stated positive opinions concerning Bishops Michael and Matthias. As my mom always pounded into me, if you don't have anything nice to say....say nothing.)

You are correct.  When I said "our monastery scandals" I was referring to the entirety of Orthodoxy (note my avatar under "jurisdiction".  I do currently attend an OCA parish, but I can be comfortable in Greek [who chrismated me] and Antiochian jurisdictions as well.  As a quick aside, when I first moved to Portsmouth I was looking forward to checking out an ACROD mission here, only to have them move into a permanent building across state lines the Sunday after I moved).

Also, thank you for heeding the wise advice of your mother.  Still tongues (or fingers) have been sadly lacking these days.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: Maria on May 15, 2011, 08:05:39 PM


I agree with you, Tina.  I believe that +Metropolitan JONAH's real crime to MS is that he dared to sign the Manhattan Declaration which is the Orthodox believe about same-sex relationships and marriage.  Considering the allegations about MS and his lifestyle, it might explain a lot.  Personally, I think MS and some of the others wanted +Metropolitan HERMAN out, but they didn't want things to change otherwise.  I think that when +Metropolitan JONAH came down so hard on same-sex relationships and marriage, he opened a can of worms because that has been going on in OCA leadership for a long time.  I think Syosset is afraid of true monastics being in charge.  You see, they actually believe in the teachings of the Orthodox Church and might actually try to put them in effect.

By the way, Tina, going to ROCOR or other jurisdictions wouldn't get you out of scandal.  I've only been Orthodox for 10 years, but in that time every single jurisdiction.  I am staying in the OCA and fighting for it.  If it takes the MP only recognizing +Metropolitan JONAH and the bishops that support him, then so be it.  From what I understand, the MP supports +Metropolitan JONAH all the way.  But then, they don't have the problem the OCA does--they won't tolerate it.

Even though I am not in the OCA I am close enough to have my own point of view, so, I have to reply.  

Simply stated, the dispute between Metropolitan Jonah and some of his fellow Bishops is NOT a simple conflict between the left and right sides of American politics - certainly at least as it applies to the so-called social issues. You can't believe propaganda from the side you 'like' in a dispute and accept everything you hear in terms of rumor and innuendoes about Bishops, priests and lifestyles etc...

Secondly, it is a stretch of great proportions to believe that signing the Manhattan Declaration, certainly as it related to the social issues such as abortion or gay marriage,  had a lasting, significant impact on anything or anyone within the Orthodox Church. (The truth of the matter is that many of the leaders of that movement have little but contempt for our Apostolic tradition and either Orthodox or Roman Christianity. Perhaps Metropolitan Jonah could communicate with them in a way the rest of the hierarchs could not in terms of his personal experiences in Protestantism or they view him in a different way because of his own journey into Orthodoxy. Either way, this is a non-issue. The fact that he signed it not in a personal manner, but as Primate certainly could give one the impression that the entirety of the politics expressed therein was somehow the policy position of the entire OCA.)   The hue and cry of the newly converted that somehow we pre-existing Orthodox are 'soft' on the political agenda of the 'religious right' as the the social issues component of that agenda borders on laughable. Sorry to disillusion many of you but Metropolitan Nicholas of ACROD and Metropolitan Herman of the OCA were on the front lines of the March for Life before most of the readers here were either born or converted.  Sorry, but the truth hurts. And as to the MP not 'tolerating' the 'problem' the OCA allegedly has? Don't idealize them, they have plenty of their own problems.

But  the comment that upset me on a personal level was the one that monastics somehow present a more perfect view of the church than to the rest of the clergy. Monks are no more the answer to the problems of the Church than excluding them would be an alternative answer. I would submit to you that your most recent Bishops of the OCA, Michael and Matthias, were never true monastic priestly vocations. Both are widowers and were ordained as married, parish priests where each served with distinction and honor for decades. Should they not have been chosen? I have been honored to be a friend of each of them for most of my life and I can assure you that each of them possess the proper 'duch' or 'spirit' to be excellent shepherds of their Dioceses.

My father, my uncle, my godfather and my brother dedicated their lives to the Orthodox Church as married parish priests and you and others will never ever diminish the value of their ministry or their priesthood with the type of snide comment about existing Church leadership being afraid of monastics for their 'actually believing in the teachings of the Orthodox Church.'



Excellent reply, except for one minor detail--

I don't think the above posters were being snide about widowed priests becoming bishops, rather I think the problem is a suspicion of non-widowed unmarried priests who have never been monastics.  From reading the various blogs surrounding the current curflupple the two new bishops are being lauded by the pro-+Jonah side as being exactly what the doctor ordered, but if you can't get widowed priests (the previous marriage being proof of their manliness) then by all means go to the monastery (because an unmarried priest is "suspect" in all the current connotations the word implies).

Of course, such opinions show that one has not been keeping up-to-date with all our monastery scandals....

I have the highest respect for monasteries and monasticism. However, please don't think that monastery shortcomings or even scandals are unique to the OCA here in America. There are always bad apples in any batch. We just have to struggle to overcome them. (And, for what it is worth, I also knew the other OCA bishops who were products, or cast-offs if you will, from ACROD who were neither widowed priests nor true monastics and you will note my silence as to them in contrast to my oft-stated positive opinions concerning Bishops Michael and Matthias. As my mom always pounded into me, if you don't have anything nice to say....say nothing.)

Lord have mercy.

I was in the OCA for 10 years. It was a nightmare.

The parish warden made the comment that if his daughters could not find a real man to marry that he would support them living in a gay relationship. If his statement sounds ambiguous, well that was part of the problem.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: podkarpatska on May 16, 2011, 09:59:04 AM


I was in the OCA for 10 years. It was a nightmare.

The parish warden made the comment that if his daughters could not find a real man to marry that he would support them living in a gay relationship. If his statement sounds ambiguous, well that was part of the problem.

An observation...we can not judge an entire ecclesiastical body or a parish on the basis of what a 'parish warden' (sounds Protestant to my ears...lol) kitchen lady or church trustee says.

I recall a parishioner in our parish who was very outwardly observant and part of the 'founders', yet known for having wrong and outspoken views about social issues. When one of the parish's young families suffered through a most difficult and scandalous divorce and one of the former spouses remarried in an OCA parish in a different diocese with a dispensation from that diocesan Bishop, the same person and his family tried to make it very, very difficult for the newly wed couple and their large family of young children to feel welcome when they relocated back home.  Now, you could choose to wring your hands and judge the parish, or you could look at the whole picture of what the praxis and life of the parish was and see the vast majority of the faithful properly expressing the Church's teachings and extending a joyful, welcoming embrace to the returnees.
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: SolEX01 on May 16, 2011, 10:08:40 AM
I was in the OCA for 10 years. It was a nightmare.

I've been in the GOA for 36 years and I thought my former Archbishop was a high school football star in Ohio.  Your results in your Jurisdiction may vary.   ;)

The parish warden made the comment that if his daughters could not find a real man to marry that he would support them living in a gay relationship. If his statement sounds ambiguous, well that was part of the problem.

Do you understand sarcasm when it is spoken?  Do you think sarcasm reflects the dominant view of a particular Jurisdiction?   ???
Title: Re: Met. Jonah to be put on leave
Post by: podkarpatska on May 16, 2011, 10:10:17 AM
I was in the OCA for 10 years. It was a nightmare.

I've been in the GOA for 36 years and I thought my former Archbishop was a high school football star in Ohio.  Your results in your Jurisdiction may vary.   ;)

The parish warden made the comment that if his daughters could not find a real man to marry that he would support them living in a gay relationship. If his statement sounds ambiguous, well that was part of the problem.

Do you understand sarcasm when it is spoken?  Do you think sarcasm reflects the dominant view of a particular Jurisdiction?   ???

lol!