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Moderated Forums => Convert Issues => Topic started by: Tikhon.of.Colorado on November 11, 2010, 06:59:17 PM

Title: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
Post by: Tikhon.of.Colorado on November 11, 2010, 06:59:17 PM
I met this wonderful woman.  she wears an Orthodox cross, prays before icons, etc.  she goes to a Protestant Church, because she says she can't be baptized in the Orthodox Church, because she was divorced and remarried.

is this true?  there is a man in catechism class at Church that just got remarried, and he plans to join the Church.
Title: Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
Post by: Anastasios on November 11, 2010, 07:00:09 PM
Baptism = clean slate. She is misinformed.
Title: Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
Post by: Tikhon.of.Colorado on November 11, 2010, 08:57:37 PM
Baptism = clean slate. She is misinformed.
really?! she'll be so happy to hear that!
Title: Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
Post by: orthonorm on November 11, 2010, 09:16:42 PM
Baptism = clean slate. She is misinformed.

What if she were given a Trinitarian Baptism outside the Orthodox Church (one that the Church would normally accept), could she still receive Chrismation?
Title: Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
Post by: Anastasios on November 11, 2010, 09:28:27 PM
Baptism = clean slate. She is misinformed.

What if she were given a Trinitarian Baptism outside the Orthodox Church (one that the Church would normally accept), could she still receive Chrismation?

Yes.

The Church allows remarriage even for Orthodox who are divorced (under certain circumstances), so it stands to reason that someone not even Orthodox could be chrismated after being divorced and remarried.  Some authorities (mainly Greek) would even count the current marriage as the first one, since the heretical baptism is only "activated" at the time of chrismation, and marriages outside the Church are not the same as marriages in the Church (since they are not sacramentally blessed; evidence of this would be the Apostolic canon which says a person married twice before baptism can be ordained a priest, while the one married twice after baptism cannot).
Title: Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
Post by: quietmorning on November 11, 2010, 11:21:23 PM
Trevor, I've been married before.  I was baptised in the RC, so I do not need to be baptised again.  I am being chrismated this coming Sunday.  My priest told me straight up that my current marriage is my First marriage and my only marriage from the day I enter into the church.  :)
Title: Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
Post by: Luke on November 11, 2010, 11:28:10 PM
Aren't you too young to consider marriage?  :o ;)
Title: Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
Post by: Tikhon.of.Colorado on November 12, 2010, 12:25:25 AM
Aren't you too young to consider marriage?  :o ;)
lol, quite!  this is for a woman I met yesterday at Bible study.  she was sad that she couldn't be baptized, because of this reason.  I am excited to ask father about it, and, if it is the case she can be baptized, I' going to encourage him to tell her!  she'll be overjoyed!
Title: Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
Post by: Benjamin the Red on November 12, 2010, 12:19:48 PM
Baptism = clean slate. She is misinformed.

What if she were given a Trinitarian Baptism outside the Orthodox Church (one that the Church would normally accept), could she still receive Chrismation?

Actually, Trevor's jurisdiction is stated as the OCA. If his friend attends the same parish, she will likely be baptized, as it is the policy of the OCA to baptize Protestant converts.
Title: Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
Post by: podkarpatska on November 12, 2010, 03:00:59 PM
Baptism = clean slate. She is misinformed.

What if she were given a Trinitarian Baptism outside the Orthodox Church (one that the Church would normally accept), could she still receive Chrismation?

Actually, Trevor's jurisdiction is stated as the OCA. If his friend attends the same parish, she will likely be baptized, as it is the policy of the OCA to baptize Protestant converts.

Even with a Trinitarian formula? Is that of the entire OCA or just the rule of your Bishop perhaps?  (yet another example of the types of issues that will need to be resolved under our future uniform structure....certainly there are historical and regional differences, slight as they may be, between and among the various 'Old World'  mother churches. Education and time will be needed for the acceptance of changes which are perhaps not doctrinal, but arise out of 'location' for lack of a better word.)
Title: Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
Post by: Schultz on November 12, 2010, 03:08:19 PM
Baptism = clean slate. She is misinformed.

What if she were given a Trinitarian Baptism outside the Orthodox Church (one that the Church would normally accept), could she still receive Chrismation?

Actually, Trevor's jurisdiction is stated as the OCA. If his friend attends the same parish, she will likely be baptized, as it is the policy of the OCA to baptize Protestant converts.

My friend and fellow catechumen who was raised in the Presbyterian Church USA was not re-baptized when we were chrismated last year (2 more days until our anniversary!). 
Title: Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
Post by: Benjamin the Red on November 12, 2010, 03:17:03 PM
Baptism = clean slate. She is misinformed.

What if she were given a Trinitarian Baptism outside the Orthodox Church (one that the Church would normally accept), could she still receive Chrismation?

Actually, Trevor's jurisdiction is stated as the OCA. If his friend attends the same parish, she will likely be baptized, as it is the policy of the OCA to baptize Protestant converts.

My friend and fellow catechumen who was raised in the Presbyterian Church USA was not re-baptized when we were chrismated last year (2 more days until our anniversary!). 

Really? I was under the impression that Metropolitan Jonah had decided that all Protestant converts will be baptized. That's what I've heard from every source in the OCA that I'm aware of.
Title: Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
Post by: Tikhon.of.Colorado on November 12, 2010, 03:44:48 PM
Baptism = clean slate. She is misinformed.

What if she were given a Trinitarian Baptism outside the Orthodox Church (one that the Church would normally accept), could she still receive Chrismation?

Actually, Trevor's jurisdiction is stated as the OCA. If his friend attends the same parish, she will likely be baptized, as it is the policy of the OCA to baptize Protestant converts.
really?!  I was a Presbyterian and I was only christmated.
Title: Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
Post by: Benjamin the Red on November 12, 2010, 03:59:55 PM
Baptism = clean slate. She is misinformed.

What if she were given a Trinitarian Baptism outside the Orthodox Church (one that the Church would normally accept), could she still receive Chrismation?

Actually, Trevor's jurisdiction is stated as the OCA. If his friend attends the same parish, she will likely be baptized, as it is the policy of the OCA to baptize Protestant converts.
really?!  I was a Presbyterian and I was only christmated.

I'm not faithful yet, but I was Presbyterian (PCA) and will be baptized.
Title: Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
Post by: podkarpatska on November 12, 2010, 04:23:26 PM
Baptism = clean slate. She is misinformed.

What if she were given a Trinitarian Baptism outside the Orthodox Church (one that the Church would normally accept), could she still receive Chrismation?

Actually, Trevor's jurisdiction is stated as the OCA. If his friend attends the same parish, she will likely be baptized, as it is the policy of the OCA to baptize Protestant converts.
really?!  I was a Presbyterian and I was only christmated.

I'm not faithful yet, but I was Presbyterian (PCA) and will be baptized.

Just out of curiosity, what diocese of OCA are you in, if you want to say. If you don't we certainly would understand.
Title: Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
Post by: Benjamin the Red on November 12, 2010, 04:51:03 PM
Baptism = clean slate. She is misinformed.

What if she were given a Trinitarian Baptism outside the Orthodox Church (one that the Church would normally accept), could she still receive Chrismation?

Actually, Trevor's jurisdiction is stated as the OCA. If his friend attends the same parish, she will likely be baptized, as it is the policy of the OCA to baptize Protestant converts.
really?!  I was a Presbyterian and I was only christmated.

I'm not faithful yet, but I was Presbyterian (PCA) and will be baptized.

Just out of curiosity, what diocese of OCA are you in, if you want to say. If you don't we certainly would understand.

I don't mind at all. I'm in the Diocese of the South.
Title: Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
Post by: lizzyd on November 12, 2010, 09:34:12 PM
Quote
Actually, Trevor's jurisdiction is stated as the OCA. If his friend attends the same parish, she will likely be baptized, as it is the policy of the OCA to baptize Protestant converts.

Not in my OCA parish either. From my limited experience it seems to depend on the priest.

Also Diocese of the South here.
Title: Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
Post by: Melodist on November 12, 2010, 11:45:50 PM
I was baptized in a baptist church when I was younger and was received into the Church by Chrismation a few weeks ago. I'm in the OCA diocese of the midwest. We're still waiting for the synod's approval and ordination of Fr Mathias to be our bishop and are under the oversight of Met. Jonah.
Title: Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
Post by: Benjamin the Red on November 12, 2010, 11:56:59 PM
I was baptized in a baptist church when I was younger and was received into the Church by Chrismation a few weeks ago. I'm in the OCA diocese of the midwest. We're still waiting for the synod's approval and ordination of Fr Mathias to be our bishop and are under the oversight of Met. Jonah.

Yes, Met. Jonah is also our Locum Tenens. We haven't even elected a new bishop yet. Congratulations to your diocese and Fr. Mathias. I was excited to hear of his election. :-)

I was under the impression that this was a directive from His Beatitude, but I could have misunderstood. We have an active catechumenate, and all of our Protestant converts have been baptized (in the year I've been attending...and there have been quite a few) I will ask my priest for clarification this weekend.
Title: Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
Post by: Melodist on November 13, 2010, 12:39:44 AM
I was baptized in a baptist church when I was younger and was received into the Church by Chrismation a few weeks ago. I'm in the OCA diocese of the midwest. We're still waiting for the synod's approval and ordination of Fr Mathias to be our bishop and are under the oversight of Met. Jonah.

Yes, Met. Jonah is also our Locum Tenens. We haven't even elected a new bishop yet. Congratulations to your diocese and Fr. Mathias. I was excited to hear of his election. :-)

I was under the impression that this was a directive from His Beatitude, but I could have misunderstood. We have an active catechumenate, and all of our Protestant converts have been baptized (in the year I've been attending...and there have been quite a few) I will ask my priest for clarification this weekend.

We were still under the oversight of Archbishop Job when I was made a catechumen. I don't kow if that made a difference or not.
Title: Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
Post by: Orthophoria on November 13, 2010, 04:30:18 PM
I also am in the Diocese of the South, and our parish priest has let me know that I will be baptized when I am received into the Church this coming January.  Although the last Christian community I was a member of was the Episcopal Church, I was baptized in a Pentecostal (Church of God) denomination.  As I understand it, this is Met. +JONAH's wish for catechumens from Protestant backgrounds.
Title: Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
Post by: pensateomnia on November 13, 2010, 05:11:34 PM
As I understand it, this is Met. +JONAH's wish for catechumens from Protestant backgrounds.

If true, a radical departure from the long-standing tradition of the Metropolia and OCA, and its Russian predecessor. It seems unlikely the Metropolitan would opt for such a change without at least issuing a public pastoral letter, perhaps even in consultation with the entire Synod. Then again, it's easier to read Fr. Metallinos than a 17th to 20th century Book of Needs in Church Slavonic.
Title: Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
Post by: lizzyd on November 13, 2010, 09:18:29 PM
  As I understand it, this is Met. +JONAH's wish for catechumens from Protestant backgrounds.

Has this changed in the past year? It was just this past July that my husband and I were received into the Church through chrismation.
Title: Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
Post by: ialmisry on November 14, 2010, 12:05:47 AM
As I understand it, this is Met. +JONAH's wish for catechumens from Protestant backgrounds.

If true, a radical departure from the long-standing tradition of the Metropolia and OCA, and its Russian predecessor. It seems unlikely the Metropolitan would opt for such a change without at least issuing a public pastoral letter, perhaps even in consultation with the entire Synod. Then again, it's easier to read Fr. Metallinos than a 17th to 20th century Book of Needs in Church Slavonic.
I remember talking about this matter with Abp. Job of blessed memory, who said he saw the day coming when this would be necessary, with all the goofy things going on in Protestantism (the specific examples he cited were sprinklings in the name of the "Creator, Savior, and Sanctifier," and "baptisms" with rose petals instead of water at a Methodist church he observed).
Title: Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on November 14, 2010, 02:23:02 AM
If this is true then I would see it as a positive development, also because it might do away with the false notion that we "recognize" the "validity" of non-Orthodox baptisms. Most see it as a stamp of approval on Protestantism in an offhand way.
Title: Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
Post by: Orthophoria on November 14, 2010, 07:39:49 AM
I was baptized in a baptist church when I was younger and was received into the Church by Chrismation a few weeks ago. I'm in the OCA diocese of the midwest. We're still waiting for the synod's approval and ordination of Fr Mathias to be our bishop and are under the oversight of Met. Jonah.

Hmmm...now I am really getting confused.   ???  I will ask Father about this the next chance I get.  As a "newbie" to Orthodoxy, it is quite possible that I am not fully understanding.  I think Father stated at one point that Met. +JONAH prefers that catechumens from (at least some) Protestant backgrounds be received by baptism; some of the more "traditional" denominations, such as Anglicanism or Lutheranism, could be received by chrismation, but some of the more "sectarian" denominations that have sprung up in the past century or two, would need to be received by baptism.

Hopefully, if a Great and Holy Council is convoked in 2013, as I have heard rumor of, then we can get this issue decided once and for all!   :)
Title: Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
Post by: Melodist on November 14, 2010, 11:28:56 PM
I was baptized in a baptist church when I was younger and was received into the Church by Chrismation a few weeks ago. I'm in the OCA diocese of the midwest. We're still waiting for the synod's approval and ordination of Fr Mathias to be our bishop and are under the oversight of Met. Jonah.

Hmmm...now I am really getting confused.   ???  I will ask Father about this the next chance I get.  As a "newbie" to Orthodoxy, it is quite possible that I am not fully understanding.  I think Father stated at one point that Met. +JONAH prefers that catechumens from (at least some) Protestant backgrounds be received by baptism; some of the more "traditional" denominations, such as Anglicanism or Lutheranism, could be received by chrismation, but some of the more "sectarian" denominations that have sprung up in the past century or two, would need to be received by baptism.

Hopefully, if a Great and Holy Council is convoked in 2013, as I have heard rumor of, then we can get this issue decided once and for all!   :)

I think it's because it was done using full immersion and the Trinitarian formula, and the church's Trinitarian beliefs.
Title: Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
Post by: katherine 2001 on November 14, 2010, 11:44:52 PM
Baptism = clean slate. She is misinformed.

What if she were given a Trinitarian Baptism outside the Orthodox Church (one that the Church would normally accept), could she still receive Chrismation?

Actually, Trevor's jurisdiction is stated as the OCA. If his friend attends the same parish, she will likely be baptized, as it is the policy of the OCA to baptize Protestant converts.

I'm sorry, but it is not the policy of the OCA to be baptized if they are a convert from Protestantism if they were baptized in the name of the Trinity and it was by immersion.
Title: Re: divorced and then remarried.....can't get baptized?
Post by: katherine 2001 on November 14, 2010, 11:48:00 PM
As I understand it, this is Met. +JONAH's wish for catechumens from Protestant backgrounds.

If true, a radical departure from the long-standing tradition of the Metropolia and OCA, and its Russian predecessor. It seems unlikely the Metropolitan would opt for such a change without at least issuing a public pastoral letter, perhaps even in consultation with the entire Synod. Then again, it's easier to read Fr. Metallinos than a 17th to 20th century Book of Needs in Church Slavonic.

Also, wouldn't that have to be agreed to by the Holy Synod as well?