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Moderated Forums => Liturgy => Topic started by: Anastasios on February 25, 2004, 06:57:27 PM

Title: Presanctified liturgy time
Post by: Anastasios on February 25, 2004, 06:57:27 PM
What time do most parish churches do Presanctified?

Here at SVS it's at 5 pm.

What time does the typikon call for?

anastasios
Title: Re:Presanctified liturgy time
Post by: Elisha on February 25, 2004, 07:39:53 PM
6:15 PM Wed is the regular time here.  Probably late enough for people to get off of work.  We're doing a 10 AM Friday liturgy as well  this week (I don't think a regular thing).
Title: Re:Presanctified liturgy time
Post by: David on February 25, 2004, 09:32:15 PM
6:00 Wednesdays here.
Title: Re:Presanctified liturgy time
Post by: David on February 25, 2004, 09:32:31 PM
Post Meridian, not Ante Meridian. :)
Title: Re:Presanctified liturgy time
Post by: arimethea on February 25, 2004, 09:32:57 PM
The Presanctified Liturgy is Vespers with communion added to it. So serving it at a time near the time time Vespers is served is common practice. In most parishes I have noticed it is around 6 pm.  In monastic communites you may see the Presanctified Liturgy served sometime between noon and 4pm because of the length of Great Compline and midnight office. This allows for a break for the one meal between Vespers and the start of Compline.
Title: Re:Presanctified liturgy time
Post by: Deacon Lance on February 26, 2004, 12:08:21 AM
My parish serves it at 7:00pm.  Most Byzantine Catholic parishes I know serve it at 6 or 7pm.

The Typicon actually calls for it to be served at 3:00 pm.  Why so early? Given that the Typicons are monastic documents it makes sense.  None and Typica are to be said before it and Great Compline is a long service so as Joseph relates it was probably doen to accomodate supper which was the lone meal during the fast.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Title: Re:Presanctified liturgy time
Post by: jbc1949 on February 26, 2004, 12:38:26 AM
My parish serves it at 7:00pm.  Most Byzantine Catholic parishes I know serve it at 6 or 7pm.

The Typicon actually calls for it to be served at 3:00 pm.  Why so early? Given that the Typicons are monastic documents it makes sense.  None and Typica are to be said before it and Great Compline is a long service so as Joseph relates it was probably doen to accomodate supper which was the lone meal during the fast.

Fr. Deacon Lance

The local Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholic Parish has Presanctified on Fridays at 6:30 PM.  Wednesdays there is a 6th Hour and Typika.
Title: Re:Presanctified liturgy time
Post by: Deacon Lance on February 26, 2004, 09:54:02 AM
JBC,

That is a strange combination for the Great Fast, usually Third and Sixth Hour are taken togther.  That is not to imply there is anything wrong with taking Sixth Hour and Typika together however.  Does the Typika include Communion?

Fr. Deacon Lance
Title: Re:Presanctified liturgy time
Post by: arimethea on February 26, 2004, 10:43:02 AM
Quote
The Typicon actually calls for it to be served at 3:00 pm

Just some notes on the Typicon and time. First off the Typicon is a guide and not a stand fast set of rules. It is a presentation of the "typical" practice.

Now about time... 3:00 is not always 3:00 as we know it. Most of the typicons refer to the Byzantine Time System. I have spent time in places where Byzantine Time is used and I was never been able to understand how it works. I do know that certain times are always sunrise and certain times are always sunset and that all the other revolves around this.

What it comes down to with the time of services in the parish is a time that will be benificial to the community. With traffic and the distance most peole are from church it is not a spiritualy good choice to serve the Liturgy of St. Gregory earlier then 5 pm in most parishes.

One last thought, remeber the thought of time and day is always thrown out during holy week since the services are done in anticipation; hence why the Presanctified Lirturgy tends to be served in the morning during that time.
Title: Re:Presanctified liturgy time
Post by: Deacon Lance on February 26, 2004, 11:45:54 AM
I would understand 3:00 pm to be the Ninth Hour (after sunrise) in the Byzantine system.  As you state None may or may not be our 3:00 pm although I think it would generally be within an hour of it.  I agree completely that  the service should be served when the most people can attend and for parishes this is between 5 or 7 pm.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Title: Re:Presanctified liturgy time
Post by: jbc1949 on February 26, 2004, 01:55:09 PM
JBC,

That is a strange combination for the Great Fast, usually Third and Sixth Hour are taken togther.  That is not to imply there is anything wrong with taking Sixth Hour and Typika together however.  Does the Typika include Communion?

Fr. Deacon Lance

The Typika includes communion service but the calendar that OLPH published just says "6th Hour and Typika."  Perhaps both 3rd and 6th Hours are actually taken together.  Fr. Chris invited me to stay for the Typika (I had visited the parish during my lunch 1/2 hour to pick up a schedule for the Great Fast) but I had to get back to work.  I am a slave of mammon it would seem!

Jim
Title: Re:Presanctified liturgy time
Post by: MsGuided on February 26, 2004, 06:28:34 PM
Well, I bet it will seem strange to say that my small Byzantine Catholic parish had presanctified liturgy at 11:00 AM.  

Why, you may ask? good question... ???
Title: Re:Presanctified liturgy time
Post by: TonyS on February 26, 2004, 07:54:30 PM


The Typicon actually calls for it to be served at 3:00 pm.
Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Deacon Lance,

I am curious, to which Typikon you are refering as The Typicon and where in it you actually find this prescription?

Tony
Title: Re:Presanctified liturgy time
Post by: TonyS on February 26, 2004, 10:33:36 PM
Deacon Lance,

I almost forgot, how is Fr. Joesph Jugan, btw?

Tony
Title: Re:Presanctified liturgy time
Post by: Deacon Lance on February 27, 2004, 11:08:22 AM
Tony,

How are you friend?  Let me know when your in Pittsburgh again.  Fr. Joe is doing well, no health issues for alomost a year now.  Actually my info is second hand from the Studite Typicon, I don't read Greek, at least not well.  I don't know what the Sabbas Typicon says on the matter.  Fr. Dave's Typicon doesn't mention it.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Title: Re:Presanctified liturgy time
Post by: TonyS on February 27, 2004, 05:21:41 PM
Dear Deacon Lance,

I will let you know.

As for the Typikon, the ones with relevancy for the Slavic Churches in the modern time would not be Studite, at least as far as I know, except in some monasteries perhaps.

I have looked and continue to look for this in The Synodal Typikon of the beginning of the 20th century, which according to Petras was used in the Ruthenian Church at least partly.  Mikita and Dol'nickyj are also places to look.  

The Typikon, at least the Salvonic one is kinda messy, not so easy to find things, it might be there staring me in my face and I can't see it but I don't think so.  I will check out Nikol'sky too.

Tony
Title: Re:Presanctified liturgy time
Post by: gregory2 on March 01, 2004, 11:05:14 PM
6pm here at my church in Washington state.
Title: Re:Presanctified liturgy time
Post by: TomS on March 02, 2004, 09:18:29 AM
6PM at St. Sophia in the capital of the world.
Title: Re:Presanctified liturgy time
Post by: sdcheung on March 02, 2004, 11:29:39 AM
6PM at St. Sophia in the capital of the world.

Woah..Agaia Sophia is a church again?
and Kon/Poli is Christian again?
Title: Re:Presanctified liturgy time
Post by: Αριστοκλής on March 02, 2004, 12:13:59 PM
Woah..Agaia Sophia is a church again?
and Kon/Poli is Christian again?

+ñ++ +¦-ü+¦-â+¦-ë !

+ö++++++-ä-ü++
Title: Re:Presanctified liturgy time
Post by: gregory2 on March 03, 2004, 09:12:39 PM
6PM at St. Sophia in the capital of the world.


whatever!  it's the capital of the world only for those living inside the beltway   ;D

just curious, since agia sofia and st nicholas cathedral are across the street from each other, do they ever sponsor "joint" activities?  or do they remain very distinct.... agia sofia the greek church, and st nicholas the russian church?
Title: Re:Presanctified liturgy time
Post by: TomS on March 04, 2004, 09:34:04 AM
just curious, since agia sofia and st nicholas cathedral are across the street from each other, do they ever sponsor "joint" activities?  or do they remain very distinct.... agia sofia the greek church, and st nicholas the russian church?

Not really any "joint" services or anything like that. However, Fr. White does come over and assists in the Liturgy when one of our Priests are out.

I sometimes go to St. Nicholas for Vespers on Sat night sine St. Sophia does not offer that service. I really like that church and find the the Priests very friendly.