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Moderated Forums => Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion => Topic started by: Alfred Persson on August 23, 2010, 12:40:55 AM

Title: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 23, 2010, 12:40:55 AM
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
 (Mal 4:5-6 KJV)

10 "For this is he of whom it is written:`Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, Who will prepare Your way before You.' (Mat 11:10 NKJ)
3 For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying: "The voice of one crying in the wilderness:`Prepare the way of the LORD; Make His paths straight.'" (Mat 3:3 NKJ)

I warned all I proselytize for Christ, not any denomination as none of them are right, all have gone astray.

I could care less if you remain Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant or whatever.

Elijah won't care what church organization you prefer, he will demand you remove every obstacle to God in your life.

Make His paths straight, you people.


You can't do that without Christ, without regeneration.

Contrary to what you have heard, being born again is not an intellectual exercise, its a partaking of divine nature, a regeneration that results in a "new creature":

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. (2Co 5:17 NKJ)

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. (Rom 8:1 NKJ)

So that is what this thread is about, being born again:

"Do not marvel that I said to you,`You must be born again.' (Joh 3:7 NKJ)

How does one know when they are born again? When you commune with Christ every day, all day, when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up.


I know the orthodox aren't born again, that is proved by icon veneration. There is no need for an image, if the prototype dwells in you.

But lets not discuss icons here, lets discuss the indwelling of the prototype, ingesting Christ for regeneration:

53 I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
 54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
 55 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."

 (Joh 6:53-58 NKJ)


Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Rev 3:20 KJV)

Now what do the Orthodox believe about being born again? That baptism causes it? If that were so, how could Paul say:

NKJ  Titus 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
 (Tit 3:5 NKJ)

NKJ  1 Corinthians 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, (1Co 1:14 NKJ)

AND why is it apostolic doctrine baptism does not regenerate, only the answer of a good conscience does through the resurrection power of the Holy Spirit:

 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1Pe 3:21 NKJ)

So the new birth is an act of God's creation, not of sacrament or any ritual of man. Its by God's Word the heavens are made, and by His Spirit His armies:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
(Eph 2:8-10 NKJ)

What say the Orthodox?

Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Melodist on August 23, 2010, 12:52:43 AM
I warned all I proselytize for Christ, not any denomination as none of them are right, all have gone astray.

What say the Orthodox?

Here's what Christ said.

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 23, 2010, 01:06:07 AM
I warned all I proselytize for Christ, not any denomination as none of them are right, all have gone astray.

What say the Orthodox?

Here's what Christ said.

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

That is incorrect, in Aramaic "petros" is "firstborn" and so in context Jesus is saying "You are firstborn, and upon this specific point of truth you just confessed, I will  build my church."

It had nothing to do with Peter, he was the occasion for Christ to reveal the truth upon which the church is built.

But Peter is the "protos" (Mat 10:2), the "FIRSTBORN" of the confession Jesus is the Christ, hence he is given the keys and is first in all apostolic lists. But we all get the keys when we are born also, the key into heaven is the confession Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Peter is irrelevant to being born again. Rather it is this confession that results in being saved:

31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Joh 20:31 NKJ)

 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
 (Rom 10:9-11 NKJ)

When you obey apostolic doctrine and confess Jesus publicly, that He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, then God's Spirit comes falls upon you, regenerating your soul, so that it now is a "new creature," and you thereafter walk by God's Holy Spirit:

 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
 (Rom 8:8-9 NKJ)

It doesn't matter what church you belong to, if your heart is unregenerate.

 7 "Do not marvel that I said to you,`You must be born again.'
 8 "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
 
(Joh 3:7-8 NKJ)


Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: ICXCNIKA on August 23, 2010, 01:06:54 AM
Christ said, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." Matthew 28:19
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 23, 2010, 01:14:05 AM
Christ said, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." Matthew 28:19

Yes, but it doesn't say baptizing them makes them born again, if it did, it would be scandalous for Paul to say:

 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, (1Co 1:14 NKJ)

Nor could Peter testify these were born again BEFORE they were baptized:

 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

 (Act 10:44-1 NKJ)
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: PeterTheAleut on August 23, 2010, 01:32:43 AM
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
 (Mal 4:5-6 KJV)

10 "For this is he of whom it is written:`Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, Who will prepare Your way before You.' (Mat 11:10 NKJ)
3 For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying: "The voice of one crying in the wilderness:`Prepare the way of the LORD; Make His paths straight.'" (Mat 3:3 NKJ)

I warned all I proselytize for Christ, not any denomination as none of them are right, all have gone astray.

I could care less if you remain Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant or whatever.

Elijah won't care what church organization you prefer, he will demand you remove every obstacle to God in your life.

Make His paths straight, you people.


You can't do that without Christ, without regeneration.

Contrary to what you have heard, being born again is not an intellectual exercise, its a partaking of divine nature, a regeneration that results in a "new creature":

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. (2Co 5:17 NKJ)

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. (Rom 8:1 NKJ)

So that is what this thread is about, being born again:

"Do not marvel that I said to you,`You must be born again.' (Joh 3:7 NKJ)

How does one know when they are born again? When you commune with Christ every day, all day, when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up.


I know the orthodox aren't born again, that is proved by icon veneration. There is no need for an image, if the prototype dwells in you.

But lets not discuss icons here, lets discuss the indwelling of the prototype, ingesting Christ for regeneration:

53 I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
 54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
 55 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."

 (Joh 6:53-58 NKJ)


Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Rev 3:20 KJV)

Now what do the Orthodox believe about being born again? That baptism causes it? If that were so, how could Paul say:

NKJ  Titus 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
 (Tit 3:5 NKJ)

NKJ  1 Corinthians 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, (1Co 1:14 NKJ)

AND why is it apostolic doctrine baptism does not regenerate, only the answer of a good conscience does through the resurrection power of the Holy Spirit:

 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1Pe 3:21 NKJ)

So the new birth is an act of God's creation, not of sacrament or any ritual of man. Its by God's Word the heavens are made, and by His Spirit His armies:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
(Eph 2:8-10 NKJ)

What say the Orthodox?


Still attacking the straw men, Alfred?
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Thankful on August 23, 2010, 01:36:33 AM
John 3:5 - "Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit." Jesus himself says, when asked about being born again, you can't enter the Kingdom of God without water baptism. The Greek word for "water" in this verse means .... water.  ;)

One of the verses you posted verifies this (the water aspect):
Titus 3:5 - "... According to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost." The Greek word for washing involves water. According to Strong's Concordance, the word loutron (washing) means "bathing, bath, the act of bathing."

There's also:
Ephesians 5:26-27 - "That he [Christ] might sanctify and cleanse it [the Church] with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." Same Greek word (loutron) in this verse.

= = = = = = =

Quote
Nor could Peter testify these were born again BEFORE they were baptized:

 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

It doesn't say anything there about them being born again before baptism. ??? It says they received the Holy Spirit and were baptized (which, as we've seen means born again). When Peter saw that their faith was such that they wanted to become Christians, they right away became part of the Church through baptism (i.e., by being "born again").  These verses are actually proving the Orthodox point.  
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: PeterTheAleut on August 23, 2010, 01:50:40 AM
John 3:5 - "Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit." Jesus himself says, when asked about being born again, said you can't enter the Kingdom of God without water baptism. The Greek word for "water" in this verse means .... water.  ;)
Yes.  St. John's Gospel is, in addition to being the most theologically perceptive of the four Gospels, also the most liturgically oriented.  What that means is that one must understand early Christian liturgy to interpret St. John's Gospel correctly.  Knowing this, St. John's reference to water and the Spirit can only mean baptism and chrismation.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Thankful on August 23, 2010, 02:27:20 AM
Alfred, can I be frank? Your posts here in these threads that you start are actually showing one of the main reasons why our family became part of the ancient Orthodox church this year. You live a tiring faith -- and I say that because I used to live it, too. You are one man with your singular ideas, and there are lots of individuals out there with their singular ("divine revelation of me") ideas. There are so many things one can look at to try and determine, "What do *I* believe about these things? What is my personal conviction in this area?" And some believe one thing about certain matters of the faith while others believe the complete opposite thing about those same exact matters of the faith. We could spend our whole lives working through all the various issues/doctrines/convictions. It's exhausting, spiritually and mentally.

We got to the point of asking ourselves, "Hasn't this been figured out, yet? It's been 2000 years afterall." Does God really want us to spend our lives deciding what we personally believe He meant when He said such-and-such, and then trying to convince others of the same? It was really sad, actually (let alone tiring), to live this way. Sad that the extent of the faith was using my mind to decide what I personally believed from issue to issue and trying my best to implement/walk in them (all the while hoping I was right in my interpretation).

What a relief to learn that God meant for the CHURCH to do all that -- and that they did all that in the first years of Christianity. God kept His Church strong, He developed it by His Holy Spirit (including, but not limited to, canonizing the Bible), and He is still with us to the end of the age. Now, instead of trying to figure it all out ourselves (according to the "divine revelation of me"), we can just rest and enter into IT.

During Divine Liturgy this morning I realized how, well, DIVINE it was that this was something God did in the Church 2000 years ago, and that we can just become a part of it -- AND that it's a "river" we cannot stop or change the course of or cause to dry up or any such thing. It's a glorious thing to be a part of. We were baptized in January and remain so grateful for what God has made available to sick and hurting humanity through the ark of salvation, the Church. Glory to God for all things.

I hope you will find Him, Alfred. He's where He said He would be -- in the Church He founded.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: recent convert on August 23, 2010, 08:44:34 AM
I will dare to agree with the general exhortation of our concerned poster in the sense of following Christ in the cost of discipleship is what all Christians are called to do.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: genesisone on August 23, 2010, 09:09:53 AM
Alfred, can I be frank? ...

I hope you will find Him, Alfred. He's where He said He would be -- in the Church He founded.
Alfred, I agree with Thankful. Unfortunately, all I'm hearing from you is a "clanging cymbal". The judgemental attitude you show with statements such as
Quote
I know the orthodox aren't born again, that is proved by icon veneration
contradicts the point you think you are making.

May God direct you through your studies and your zeal (both of which are commendable) to a truly Apostolic and Catholic and Orthodox faith in our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Melodist on August 23, 2010, 10:28:53 AM
I warned all I proselytize for Christ, not any denomination as none of them are right, all have gone astray.

What say the Orthodox?

Here's what Christ said.

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

That is incorrect, in Aramaic "petros" is "firstborn" and so in context Jesus is saying "You are firstborn, and upon this specific point of truth you just confessed, I will  build my church."

It had nothing to do with Peter, he was the occasion for Christ to reveal the truth upon which the church is built.

But Peter is the "protos" (Mat 10:2), the "FIRSTBORN" of the confession Jesus is the Christ, hence he is given the keys and is first in all apostolic lists. But we all get the keys when we are born also, the key into heaven is the confession Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.

My point was that you believe that everyone everywhere is wrong, which goes against the words of Christ Himself. My point had nothing to do with Peter and everything to do with the Church that he founded, which, according to the book of Acts, Peter played a prominent role in establishing. This is not a defence of the Papacy, it's a defence of the Church established on the day of Penetecost over which nothing can or will prevail. If you believe everyone is wrong, you believe that Church was overcome.

Quote
Peter is irrelevant to being born again. Rather it is this confession that results in being saved:

1Pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Col 2:11-12 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Read Romans 6. Please forgive me for not posting the entire chapter.

Quote
31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Joh 20:31 NKJ)

 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
 (Rom 10:9-11 NKJ)

If you truly believed in Him, then you would have faith in His ability to lead, guide, and inspire, and protect His Church.

Quote
When you obey apostolic doctrine and confess Jesus publicly, that He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, then God's Spirit comes falls upon you, regenerating your soul, so that it now is a "new creature," and you thereafter walk by God's Holy Spirit:

Not according to the NT. No one in the NT brings themselves into Christ. Christ gave the Holy Spirit to the apostles. They baptized people, gave the gift of the Holy Spirit, healed people, etc. They ordained bishops, presbyters, and deacons in local churches and gave them the authority to do the same. Even when Paul had his experience on the road to damascus, he still had to be baptized into the Church. Even Apollos who recieved John's baptism of repentence and went around preaching Jesus as the Christ still had to be baptized into the Church.

Quote
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
 (Rom 8:8-9 NKJ)

It doesn't matter what church you belong to, if your heart is unregenerate.

I disagree. Christ said that the servant who knew the masters will and did not do it would receive more stripes than the one who didn't. But if you were to exchange the word "unregenerate" for "unrepentant", then I would agree that daily repentance and conversion is necessary and only condemnation can come without it.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 23, 2010, 12:32:27 PM
John 3:5 - "Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit." Jesus himself says, when asked about being born again, you can't enter the Kingdom of God without water baptism. The Greek word for "water" in this verse means .... water.  ;)

One of the verses you posted verifies this (the water aspect):
Titus 3:5 - "... According to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost." The Greek word for washing involves water. According to Strong's Concordance, the word loutron (washing) means "bathing, bath, the act of bathing."

There's also:
Ephesians 5:26-27 - "That he [Christ] might sanctify and cleanse it [the Church] with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." Same Greek word (loutron) in this verse.

= = = = = = =

Quote
Nor could Peter testify these were born again BEFORE they were baptized:

 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

It doesn't say anything there about them being born again before baptism. ??? It says they received the Holy Spirit and were baptized (which, as we've seen means born again). When Peter saw that their faith was such that they wanted to become Christians, they right away became part of the Church through baptism (i.e., by being "born again").  These verses are actually proving the Orthodox point.  

47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"

You don't suggest Peter wasn't born again, do you? That happens when you receive the Holy Spirit.

As for "born of water" that figuratively refers to the role water plays in cleansing in the LAW, and by extension, when we are baptized, cleansed. BUT Peter is very clear, the water does not save, the cleansing does not save, its the answer of a good conscience that saves:

NKJ  1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

KJV  1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

NET  1 Peter 3:21 And this prefigured baptism, which now saves you– not the washing off of physical dirt but the pledge of a good conscience to God– through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

To be "born of water" is to be born of repentance, you repent, then are cleansed by water, as John the Baptist did:

 6 and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins. (Mat 3:6 NKJ)

Born of water = repentance & cleansing; born of Spirit = regeneration.

Don't confuse them, that would be a generalization fallacy.

You should have been able to deduce that from the expression "the washing of water by the word", obviously figurative, words do not literally wash anyone. The idea is the Word of God has special power to uncover sin in one's life, and once a person is made aware of their sin, they repent and are cleansed from it = washing of water by the word.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 23, 2010, 12:42:36 PM
Alfred, can I be frank? Your posts here in these threads that you start are actually showing one of the main reasons why our family became part of the ancient Orthodox church this year. You live a tiring faith -- and I say that because I used to live it, too. You are one man with your singular ideas, and there are lots of individuals out there with their singular ("divine revelation of me") ideas. There are so many things one can look at to try and determine, "What do *I* believe about these things? What is my personal conviction in this area?" And some believe one thing about certain matters of the faith while others believe the complete opposite thing about those same exact matters of the faith. We could spend our whole lives working through all the various issues/doctrines/convictions. It's exhausting, spiritually and mentally.

We got to the point of asking ourselves, "Hasn't this been figured out, yet? It's been 2000 years afterall." Does God really want us to spend our lives deciding what we personally believe He meant when He said such-and-such, and then trying to convince others of the same? It was really sad, actually (let alone tiring), to live this way. Sad that the extent of the faith was using my mind to decide what I personally believed from issue to issue and trying my best to implement/walk in them (all the while hoping I was right in my interpretation).

What a relief to learn that God meant for the CHURCH to do all that -- and that they did all that in the first years of Christianity. God kept His Church strong, He developed it by His Holy Spirit (including, but not limited to, canonizing the Bible), and He is still with us to the end of the age. Now, instead of trying to figure it all out ourselves (according to the "divine revelation of me"), we can just rest and enter into IT.

During Divine Liturgy this morning I realized how, well, DIVINE it was that this was something God did in the Church 2000 years ago, and that we can just become a part of it -- AND that it's a "river" we cannot stop or change the course of or cause to dry up or any such thing. It's a glorious thing to be a part of. We were baptized in January and remain so grateful for what God has made available to sick and hurting humanity through the ark of salvation, the Church. Glory to God for all things.

I hope you will find Him, Alfred. He's where He said He would be -- in the Church He founded.


You are projecting, my faith is not tiring at all. When the Holy Spirit fell upon me, as a warm wind, like oil on my head and face, my soul was regenerated into a new creature, over 30 years ago.

He never leaves me or forsakes me.


Moreover your reading comprehension needs improvement. God revealed to Peter Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God:

16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
 (Mat 16:16-17 NKJ)

Or do you quibble with Christ?

Try reading what I wrote again, without assuming you know what I said before hand, it might help.


Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 23, 2010, 12:53:57 PM
John 3:5 - "Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit." Jesus himself says, when asked about being born again, said you can't enter the Kingdom of God without water baptism. The Greek word for "water" in this verse means .... water.  ;)
Yes.  St. John's Gospel is, in addition to being the most theologically perceptive of the four Gospels, also the most liturgically oriented.  What that means is that one must understand early Christian liturgy to interpret St. John's Gospel correctly.  Knowing this, St. John's reference to water and the Spirit can only mean baptism and chrismation.

Frankly, your ego is astounding, you know which Gospel writers weren't theologically perceptive?

If we must talk about perception, Christ isn't about liturgy:

 25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.
 26 "Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
 (Mat 23:25-26 NKJ)

The Eucharist is not ritual, it teaches ingestion of Christ (cf John c. 6) entire, who He is, and all He taught, its not a ritual, its another way of saying:

 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
 7 "Do not marvel that I said to you,`You must be born again.'
 (Joh 3:5-7 NKJ)

You repent, believe Jesus the Christ, Son of the Living God, confess that publicly, and selling all you own...to follow Him, that is ingesting Christ.


Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 23, 2010, 01:01:33 PM
I warned all I proselytize for Christ, not any denomination as none of them are right, all have gone astray.

What say the Orthodox?

Here's what Christ said.

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

That is incorrect, in Aramaic "petros" is "firstborn" and so in context Jesus is saying "You are firstborn, and upon this specific point of truth you just confessed, I will  build my church."

It had nothing to do with Peter, he was the occasion for Christ to reveal the truth upon which the church is built.

But Peter is the "protos" (Mat 10:2), the "FIRSTBORN" of the confession Jesus is the Christ, hence he is given the keys and is first in all apostolic lists. But we all get the keys when we are born also, the key into heaven is the confession Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.

My point was that you believe that everyone everywhere is wrong, which goes against the words of Christ Himself. My point had nothing to do with Peter and everything to do with the Church that he founded, which, according to the book of Acts, Peter played a prominent role in establishing. This is not a defence of the Papacy, it's a defence of the Church established on the day of Penetecost over which nothing can or will prevail. If you believe everyone is wrong, you believe that Church was overcome.

Quote
Peter is irrelevant to being born again. Rather it is this confession that results in being saved:

1Pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Col 2:11-12 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Read Romans 6. Please forgive me for not posting the entire chapter.

Quote
31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Joh 20:31 NKJ)

 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
 (Rom 10:9-11 NKJ)

If you truly believed in Him, then you would have faith in His ability to lead, guide, and inspire, and protect His Church.



Not talking about church organizations...My post is about being born again.

I know icon venerators aren't born again, if the prototype dwelt in them, they wouldn't need images to speak to Him.

So here I am, talking about being born again, having Christ near, indwelling, rather than far away.


 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, "The man who does those things shall live by them."
 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart,`Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
 7 or, "`Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart " (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
 (Rom 10:5-11 NKJ)

You don't have to ask who will go to heaven, to bring God's Word down to you, nor who will uncover it, and bring it to you.

For in God you live and move and have your being, so He is not far from any one of us.

God Himself will put His Word in your mouth and in your heart, if you repent, and earnestly desire to confess Jesus publicly before angels and men.

THEN God puts His revelation Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, in your heart, and in your mouth, and confessing it, you are saved. Past tense, or rather, a completed action.




Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on August 23, 2010, 01:10:37 PM
I warned all I proselytize for Christ, not any denomination as none of them are right, all have gone astray.

And that's why you're starting up your new religious affiliation? Will Elijah care about that one either?

Could you ego get any more inflated?

Stop throwing all your Bible verses at me. The Church that canonized them went astray, so I don't have to recognize their authority.

Stay tuned to get my newly restored Gospel, written on golden tablets which I am currently translating:

(http://www.imagesoftherestoration.org/blog/wp-content/images/jstranslatingbom.jpg)
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 23, 2010, 01:17:16 PM
When you obey apostolic doctrine and confess Jesus publicly, that He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, then God's Spirit comes falls upon you, regenerating your soul, so that it now is a "new creature," and you thereafter walk by God's Holy Spirit:

Not according to the NT. No one in the NT brings themselves into Christ. Christ gave the Holy Spirit to the apostles. They baptized people, gave the gift of the Holy Spirit, healed people, etc. They ordained bishops, presbyters, and deacons in local churches and gave them the authority to do the same. Even when Paul had his experience on the road to damascus, he still had to be baptized into the Church. Even Apollos who recieved John's baptism of repentence and went around preaching Jesus as the Christ still had to be baptized into the Church.

Quote
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
 (Rom 8:8-9 NKJ)

It doesn't matter what church you belong to, if your heart is unregenerate.

I disagree. Christ said that the servant who knew the masters will and did not do it would receive more stripes than the one who didn't. But if you were to exchange the word "unregenerate" for "unrepentant", then I would agree that daily repentance and conversion is necessary and only condemnation can come without it.

Precisely according to the New Testament, in God we live and move and have our being, therefore He is not far from any one of us:
27 "so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
 28 "for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said,`For we are also His offspring.'
 (Act 17:27-28 NKJ)

We do not require someone bring God's truth to us from heaven, or uncover it from some hiding place on earth, God Himself puts the revelation Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, in your heart and in your mouth, when you repent and earnestly desire Him as LORD over you and all you possess:

5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, "The man who does those things shall live by them."
 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart,`Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
 7 or, "`Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart " (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
 (Rom 10:5-11 NKJ)

That God providentially uses preachers to make you aware of this Gospel of truth doesn't make them a part of the process of salvation, just as a waiter isn't part of your meal.

And if that waiter won't bring you the food, there is always another who will.

As for the servant beaten with many stripes, he couldn't have been born again, for there is  now no condemnation for them who walk after the  Spirit:

NKJ  Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
 (Rom 8:1-8 NKJ)
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: recent convert on August 23, 2010, 01:25:40 PM
Since you preach to us, what do you say of the cost of discipleship? Do you have the level of courage it takes if necessary? Do you know the level of courage of another believer? While Peter fulfilled it as an apostle, did he not first fail at the crucufixion of the Lord? Is this so easy to determine? Do we all have the courage of Sts. Polycarp, Thekla, Ignatius etc..??
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on August 23, 2010, 01:39:54 PM
Precisely according to the New Testament...

Assembled by image-needers, not as pure as yourself. You should write a better book.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: PeterTheAleut on August 23, 2010, 02:15:47 PM
John 3:5 - "Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit." Jesus himself says, when asked about being born again, said you can't enter the Kingdom of God without water baptism. The Greek word for "water" in this verse means .... water.  ;)
Yes.  St. John's Gospel is, in addition to being the most theologically perceptive of the four Gospels, also the most liturgically oriented.  What that means is that one must understand early Christian liturgy to interpret St. John's Gospel correctly.  Knowing this, St. John's reference to water and the Spirit can only mean baptism and chrismation.

Frankly, your ego is astounding,
Yes, I know, but do you know the meaning of the imperative, "Physician, heal thyself!"?  Or the parable of the black pot and the black kettle?  I'm not the one who goes to discussion forums of other non-Orthodox Christian faiths to preach Orthodoxy to them while I totally ignore the arguments they put forward to defend their faith and boast of the rhetorical superiority of my logic.

you know which Gospel writers weren't theologically perceptive?
I'm not saying that the other Gospels were NOT theologically perceptive, so you've no need to put words into my mouth.  All of the Gospels are theologically perceptive; it's just that, by way of comparison, the Gospel of St. John shows itself more theologically perceptive than the others.

If we must talk about perception, Christ isn't about liturgy:

 25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.
 26 "Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
 (Mat 23:25-26 NKJ)
Those verses don't prove your point.  Besides, if Christ isn't about liturgy, why did He, as the pre-incarnate Son of God, reveal the liturgy of the tabernacle to the Hebrews and command them to build their whole life around it?

The Eucharist is not ritual, it teaches ingestion of Christ (cf John c. 6) entire, who He is, and all He taught, its not a ritual, its another way of saying:

 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
 7 "Do not marvel that I said to you,`You must be born again.'
 (Joh 3:5-7 NKJ)
Again, those verses don't prove your point.  They don't have anything to do with your point.  So what IS your point (in trotting them out)?  BTW, whose interpretation of those texts are you presenting here?  You may certainly believe you're only presenting to us what the Bible says, but I know better.  The Bible says whatever we mean it to say.

You repent, believe Jesus the Christ, Son of the Living God, confess that publicly, and selling all you own...to follow Him, that is ingesting Christ.
That's an interesting definition I've never seen before, not even when I was a Bible-studying Protestant.  Where'd you come up with that?  Who taught it to you?
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 23, 2010, 02:38:38 PM
John 3:5 - "Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit." Jesus himself says, when asked about being born again, said you can't enter the Kingdom of God without water baptism. The Greek word for "water" in this verse means .... water.  ;)
Yes.  St. John's Gospel is, in addition to being the most theologically perceptive of the four Gospels, also the most liturgically oriented.  What that means is that one must understand early Christian liturgy to interpret St. John's Gospel correctly.  Knowing this, St. John's reference to water and the Spirit can only mean baptism and chrismation.

Frankly, your ego is astounding,
Yes, I know, but do you know the meaning of the imperative, "Physician, heal thyself!"?  Or the parable of the black pot and the black kettle?  I'm not the one who goes to discussion forums of other non-Orthodox Christian faiths to preach Orthodoxy to them while I totally ignore the arguments they put forward to defend their faith and boast of the rhetorical superiority of my logic.

you know which Gospel writers weren't theologically perceptive?
I'm not saying that the other Gospels were NOT theologically perceptive, so you've no need to put words into my mouth.  All of the Gospels are theologically perceptive; it's just that, by way of comparison, the Gospel of St. John shows itself more theologically perceptive than the others.

If we must talk about perception, Christ isn't about liturgy:

 25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.
 26 "Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
 (Mat 23:25-26 NKJ)
Those verses don't prove your point.  Besides, if Christ isn't about liturgy, why did He, as the pre-incarnate Son of God, reveal the liturgy of the tabernacle to the Hebrews and command them to build their whole life around it?

The Eucharist is not ritual, it teaches ingestion of Christ (cf John c. 6) entire, who He is, and all He taught, its not a ritual, its another way of saying:

 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
 7 "Do not marvel that I said to you,`You must be born again.'
 (Joh 3:5-7 NKJ)
Again, those verses don't prove your point.  They don't have anything to do with your point.  So what IS your point (in trotting them out)?  BTW, whose interpretation of those texts are you presenting here?  You may certainly believe you're only presenting to us what the Bible says, but I know better.  The Bible says whatever we mean it to say.

You repent, believe Jesus the Christ, Son of the Living God, confess that publicly, and selling all you own...to follow Him, that is ingesting Christ.
That's an interesting definition I've never seen before, not even when I was a Bible-studying Protestant.  Where'd you come up with that?  Who taught it to you?

God taught it to me, via the scripture, the entire context is about belief in Christ, true belief, one that ingests His teachings completely, not superficially:

NKJ  John 6:1 After these things Jesus went over the Sea of Galilee, which is the Sea of Tiberias.
 2 Then a great multitude followed Him, because they saw His signs which He performed on those who were diseased.
 3 And Jesus went up on the mountain, and there He sat with His disciples.
 4 Now the Passover, a feast of the Jews, was near.
 5 Then Jesus lifted up His eyes, and seeing a great multitude coming toward Him, He said to Philip, "Where shall we buy bread, that these may eat?"
 6 But this He said to test him, for He Himself knew what He would do.
 7 Philip answered Him, "Two hundred denarii worth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may have a little."
 8 One of His disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, said to Him,
 9 "There is a lad here who has five barley loaves and two small fish, but what are they among so many?"
 10 Then Jesus said, "Make the people sit down." Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand.
 11 And Jesus took the loaves, and when He had given thanks He distributed them to the disciples, and the disciples to those sitting down; and likewise of the fish, as much as they wanted.
 12 So when they were filled, He said to His disciples, "Gather up the fragments that remain, so that nothing is lost."
 ...

24 when the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they also got into boats and came to Capernaum, seeking Jesus.
 25 And when they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, "Rabbi, when did You come here?"
 26 Jesus answered them and said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
 27 "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."
 28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
 30 Therefore they said to Him, "What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do?
 31 "Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written,`He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'"
 32 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven.
 33 "For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
 34 Then they said to Him, "Lord, give us this bread always."
 35 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
 37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
 39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven."
 42 And they said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says,`I have come down from heaven '?"
 43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves.
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
 45 "It is written in the prophets,`And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
 46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
47 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
 48 "I am the bread of life.
 49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
 50 "This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.
 51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."
 52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?"
 53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
 54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
 55 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."
 59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"
 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you?
 62 "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?
63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"
 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
 70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
 (Joh 6:1 NKJ)


Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: PeterTheAleut on August 23, 2010, 02:47:40 PM
God taught it to me, via the scripture,
Do you know how many false teachers say exactly the same thing?  What makes you so sure you're not just another one of them?
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Heorhij on August 23, 2010, 02:51:21 PM
Alfred, may I ask, what do you think about the so-called Oneness Pentecostalism? The reason I am asking is that the adherents of this movement have the same tendency you show: pick a great number of quotes from the Bible and support their "idea" that there is no Trinity.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: ialmisry on August 23, 2010, 02:54:22 PM
God taught it to me, via the scripture,
Do you know how many false teachers say exactly the same thing?  What makes you so sure you're not just another one of them?
because you (Mr. Persson) have posted enough to demostrate that you are.

Via what scripture?  The Gnostic Gospels?
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: ialmisry on August 23, 2010, 03:14:12 PM
John 3:5 - "Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit." Jesus himself says, when asked about being born again, said you can't enter the Kingdom of God without water baptism. The Greek word for "water" in this verse means .... water.  ;)
Yes.  St. John's Gospel is, in addition to being the most theologically perceptive of the four Gospels, also the most liturgically oriented.  What that means is that one must understand early Christian liturgy to interpret St. John's Gospel correctly.  Knowing this, St. John's reference to water and the Spirit can only mean baptism and chrismation.

Frankly, your ego is astounding,
Yes, I know, but do you know the meaning of the imperative, "Physician, heal thyself!"?  Or the parable of the black pot and the black kettle?  I'm not the one who goes to discussion forums of other non-Orthodox Christian faiths to preach Orthodoxy to them while I totally ignore the arguments they put forward to defend their faith and boast of the rhetorical superiority of my logic.

you know which Gospel writers weren't theologically perceptive?
I'm not saying that the other Gospels were NOT theologically perceptive, so you've no need to put words into my mouth.  All of the Gospels are theologically perceptive; it's just that, by way of comparison, the Gospel of St. John shows itself more theologically perceptive than the others.

If we must talk about perception, Christ isn't about liturgy:

 25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.
 26 "Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
 (Mat 23:25-26 NKJ)
Those verses don't prove your point.  Besides, if Christ isn't about liturgy, why did He, as the pre-incarnate Son of God, reveal the liturgy of the tabernacle to the Hebrews and command them to build their whole life around it?

The Eucharist is not ritual, it teaches ingestion of Christ (cf John c. 6) entire, who He is, and all He taught, its not a ritual, its another way of saying:

 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
 7 "Do not marvel that I said to you,`You must be born again.'
 (Joh 3:5-7 NKJ)
Again, those verses don't prove your point.  They don't have anything to do with your point.  So what IS your point (in trotting them out)?  BTW, whose interpretation of those texts are you presenting here?  You may certainly believe you're only presenting to us what the Bible says, but I know better.  The Bible says whatever we mean it to say.

You repent, believe Jesus the Christ, Son of the Living God, confess that publicly, and selling all you own...to follow Him, that is ingesting Christ.
That's an interesting definition I've never seen before, not even when I was a Bible-studying Protestant.  Where'd you come up with that?  Who taught it to you?

God taught it to me, via the scripture, the entire context is about belief in Christ, true belief, one that ingests His teachings completely, not superficially:

Physician, heal thyself.

Quote
NKJ  John 6:1 After these things Jesus went over the Sea of Galilee, which is the Sea of Tiberias.
 2 Then a great multitude followed Him, because they saw His signs which He performed on those who were diseased.
 3 And Jesus went up on the mountain, and there He sat with His disciples.
 4 Now the Passover, a feast of the Jews, was near.
 5 Then Jesus lifted up His eyes, and seeing a great multitude coming toward Him, He said to Philip, "Where shall we buy bread, that these may eat?"
 6 But this He said to test him, for He Himself knew what He would do.

NKJ John 14:7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”
8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

Quote
7 Philip answered Him, "Two hundred denarii worth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may have a little."
 8 One of His disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, said to Him,
 9 "There is a lad here who has five barley loaves and two small fish, but what are they among so many?"
 10 Then Jesus said, "Make the people sit down." Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand.
 11 And Jesus took the loaves, and when He had given thanks He distributed them to the disciples, and the disciples to those sitting down; and likewise of the fish, as much as they wanted.
 12 So when they were filled, He said to His disciples, "Gather up the fragments that remain, so that nothing is lost."
 ...

24 when the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they also got into boats and came to Capernaum, seeking Jesus.
 25 And when they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, "Rabbi, when did You come here?"
 26 Jesus answered them and said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs,
(http://www.wanderingheretic.com/wp-images/Shroud/beardless.jpg)
(http://www.archangelicons.com/files/Christ%20Communion%20of%20the%20Apostles.jpg)
Quote
but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
 27 "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."
 28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
 30 Therefore they said to Him, "What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do?
 31 "Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written,`He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'"
 32 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven.
 33 "For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
 34 Then they said to Him, "Lord, give us this bread always."
 35 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
 36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.[/b]
(http://holy-icons.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/ICXC3large.jpg)
Quote
37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
 39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
 40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven."
 42 And they said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says,`I have come down from heaven '?"
 43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves.
 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
 45 "It is written in the prophets,`And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
 46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
47 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
 48 "I am the bread of life.
 49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
 50 "This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.
 51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."
 52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?"
 53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
 54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
 55 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."
 59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"
 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you?
 62 "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?
(http://www.holy-ascension.org/images/ascension_icon.jpg)
Quote
63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
 64"But there are some of you who do not believe.[/color][/b]" For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
6:66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"
 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
 70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
 (Joh 6:1 NKJ)
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 23, 2010, 04:10:08 PM
God taught it to me, via the scripture,
Do you know how many false teachers say exactly the same thing?  What makes you so sure you're not just another one of them?

I cited the text, highlighted the precise words, guess the proverb is true, you can lead 'em to water, but can't make 'em drink


NKJ  John 6:1 After these things Jesus went over the Sea of Galilee, which is the Sea of Tiberias.
 2 Then a great multitude followed Him, because they saw His signs which He performed on those who were diseased.
 3 And Jesus went up on the mountain, and there He sat with His disciples.
 4 Now the Passover, a feast of the Jews, was near.
 5 Then Jesus lifted up His eyes, and seeing a great multitude coming toward Him, He said to Philip, "Where shall we buy bread, that these may eat?"
 6 But this He said to test him, for He Himself knew what He would do.
 7 Philip answered Him, "Two hundred denarii worth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may have a little."
 8 One of His disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, said to Him,
 9 "There is a lad here who has five barley loaves and two small fish, but what are they among so many?"
 10 Then Jesus said, "Make the people sit down." Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand.
 11 And Jesus took the loaves, and when He had given thanks He distributed them to the disciples, and the disciples to those sitting down; and likewise of the fish, as much as they wanted.
 12 So when they were filled, He said to His disciples, "Gather up the fragments that remain, so that nothing is lost."
 ...

24 when the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they also got into boats and came to Capernaum, seeking Jesus.
 25 And when they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, "Rabbi, when did You come here?"
 26 Jesus answered them and said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
 27 "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."
 28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
 30 Therefore they said to Him, "What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do?
 31 "Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written,`He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'"
 32 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven.
 33 "For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
 34 Then they said to Him, "Lord, give us this bread always."
 35 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
 37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
 39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven."
 42 And they said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says,`I have come down from heaven '?"
 43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves.
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
 45 "It is written in the prophets,`And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
 46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
47 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
 48 "I am the bread of life.
 49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
 50 "This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.
 51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."
 52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?"
 53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
 54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
 55 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."
 59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"
 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you?
 62 "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?
63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"
 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
 70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
 (Joh 6:1 NKJ)

Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 23, 2010, 04:12:52 PM
John 3:5 - "Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit." Jesus himself says, when asked about being born again, said you can't enter the Kingdom of God without water baptism. The Greek word for "water" in this verse means .... water.  ;)
Yes.  St. John's Gospel is, in addition to being the most theologically perceptive of the four Gospels, also the most liturgically oriented.  What that means is that one must understand early Christian liturgy to interpret St. John's Gospel correctly.  Knowing this, St. John's reference to water and the Spirit can only mean baptism and chrismation.

Frankly, your ego is astounding,
Yes, I know, but do you know the meaning of the imperative, "Physician, heal thyself!"?  Or the parable of the black pot and the black kettle?  I'm not the one who goes to discussion forums of other non-Orthodox Christian faiths to preach Orthodoxy to them while I totally ignore the arguments they put forward to defend their faith and boast of the rhetorical superiority of my logic.

you know which Gospel writers weren't theologically perceptive?
I'm not saying that the other Gospels were NOT theologically perceptive, so you've no need to put words into my mouth.  All of the Gospels are theologically perceptive; it's just that, by way of comparison, the Gospel of St. John shows itself more theologically perceptive than the others.

If we must talk about perception, Christ isn't about liturgy:

 25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.
 26 "Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
 (Mat 23:25-26 NKJ)
Those verses don't prove your point.  Besides, if Christ isn't about liturgy, why did He, as the pre-incarnate Son of God, reveal the liturgy of the tabernacle to the Hebrews and command them to build their whole life around it?

The Eucharist is not ritual, it teaches ingestion of Christ (cf John c. 6) entire, who He is, and all He taught, its not a ritual, its another way of saying:

 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
 7 "Do not marvel that I said to you,`You must be born again.'
 (Joh 3:5-7 NKJ)
Again, those verses don't prove your point.  They don't have anything to do with your point.  So what IS your point (in trotting them out)?  BTW, whose interpretation of those texts are you presenting here?  You may certainly believe you're only presenting to us what the Bible says, but I know better.  The Bible says whatever we mean it to say.

You repent, believe Jesus the Christ, Son of the Living God, confess that publicly, and selling all you own...to follow Him, that is ingesting Christ.
That's an interesting definition I've never seen before, not even when I was a Bible-studying Protestant.  Where'd you come up with that?  Who taught it to you?

God taught it to me, via the scripture, the entire context is about belief in Christ, true belief, one that ingests His teachings completely, not superficially:

Physician, heal thyself.

Quote
NKJ  John 6:1 After these things Jesus went over the Sea of Galilee, which is the Sea of Tiberias.
 2 Then a great multitude followed Him, because they saw His signs which He performed on those who were diseased.
 3 And Jesus went up on the mountain, and there He sat with His disciples.
 4 Now the Passover, a feast of the Jews, was near.
 5 Then Jesus lifted up His eyes, and seeing a great multitude coming toward Him, He said to Philip, "Where shall we buy bread, that these may eat?"
 6 But this He said to test him, for He Himself knew what He would do.

NKJ John 14:7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”
8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

Quote
7 Philip answered Him, "Two hundred denarii worth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may have a little."
 8 One of His disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, said to Him,
 9 "There is a lad here who has five barley loaves and two small fish, but what are they among so many?"
 10 Then Jesus said, "Make the people sit down." Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand.
 11 And Jesus took the loaves, and when He had given thanks He distributed them to the disciples, and the disciples to those sitting down; and likewise of the fish, as much as they wanted.
 12 So when they were filled, He said to His disciples, "Gather up the fragments that remain, so that nothing is lost."
 ...

24 when the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they also got into boats and came to Capernaum, seeking Jesus.
 25 And when they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, "Rabbi, when did You come here?"
 26 Jesus answered them and said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs,
(http://www.wanderingheretic.com/wp-images/Shroud/beardless.jpg)
(http://www.archangelicons.com/files/Christ%20Communion%20of%20the%20Apostles.jpg)
Quote
but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
 27 "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."
 28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
 30 Therefore they said to Him, "What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do?
 31 "Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written,`He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'"
 32 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven.
 33 "For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
 34 Then they said to Him, "Lord, give us this bread always."
 35 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
 36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.[/b]
(http://holy-icons.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/ICXC3large.jpg)
Quote
37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
 39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
 40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven."
 42 And they said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says,`I have come down from heaven '?"
 43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves.
 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
 45 "It is written in the prophets,`And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
 46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
47 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
 48 "I am the bread of life.
 49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
 50 "This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.
 51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."
 52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?"
 53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
 54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
 55 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."
 59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"
 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you?
 62 "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?
(http://www.holy-ascension.org/images/ascension_icon.jpg)
Quote
63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
 64"But there are some of you who do not believe.[/color][/b]" For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
6:66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"
 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
 70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
 (Joh 6:1 NKJ)


AHHHHOOOGHHHHH....the pain...the icons are killing me....

Not.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: FormerReformer on August 23, 2010, 05:38:33 PM

AHHHHOOOGHHHHH....the pain...the icons are killing me....

Not.

I believe the icons are there to illustrate and instruct.  You know, kind of like the Gospel.

Speaking of the Gospel...

I cited the text, highlighted the precise words, guess the proverb is true, you can lead 'em to water, but can't make 'em drink

Wonder what's in those words you didn't highlight?

Let's take a look...


 54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
 55 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."

Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: PeterTheAleut on August 23, 2010, 06:12:22 PM
God taught it to me, via the scripture,
Do you know how many false teachers say exactly the same thing?  What makes you so sure you're not just another one of them?

I cited the text, highlighted the precise words,
So what?  Anyone with an agenda that motivates proof texting can do that.  It doesn't prove anything.

guess the proverb is true, you can lead 'em to water, but can't make 'em drink
Particularly if the water stinks, like the river that runs through the heart of my town.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: ialmisry on August 23, 2010, 08:05:32 PM
AHHHHOOOGHHHHH....the pain...the icons are killing me....

Not.

II Cor. 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious. 12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same icon from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.  4:1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the icon of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
(http://www.svspress.com/images/svspressicons/l-icon401.jpg)
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: ialmisry on August 23, 2010, 08:08:12 PM
Precisely according to the New Testament...

Assembled by image-needers, not as pure as yourself. You should write a better book.

He is writing a book. Better is another matter.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 23, 2010, 08:35:44 PM

AHHHHOOOGHHHHH....the pain...the icons are killing me....

Not.

I believe the icons are there to illustrate and instruct.  You know, kind of like the Gospel.

Speaking of the Gospel...

I cited the text, highlighted the precise words, guess the proverb is true, you can lead 'em to water, but can't make 'em drink

Wonder what's in those words you didn't highlight?

Let's take a look...


 54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
 55 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."



Then Christ contradicts Himself:

63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

But if we accept Christ's words as He meant them, then His words are spirit and they are life, not a cannibalistic ritual.

A Christless Christianity is not life, its death.

The sense of it is carried over in many different ways:

NKJ  James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
 (Jam 2:26 NKJ)

In other words, dead Orthodoxy does not save:

18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe-- and tremble!
 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
 (Jam 2:18-20 NKJ)

James refuted the Rabbinical style argument in two different ways:
1)Belief in Orthodox monotheism does not save demons, they don't have works, therefore neither will it save you;
2)Faith can exist without works as documented by the demons, they believe so strongly they tremble, yet have no works.


Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: ialmisry on August 23, 2010, 08:41:13 PM
I warned all I proselytize for Christ, not any denomination as none of them are right, all have gone astray.

And that's why you're starting up your new religious affiliation? Will Elijah care about that one either?

Could you ego get any more inflated?

Stop throwing all your Bible verses at me. The Church that canonized them went astray, so I don't have to recognize their authority.

Stay tuned to get my newly restored Gospel, written on golden tablets which I am currently translating:

(http://www.imagesoftherestoration.org/blog/wp-content/images/jstranslatingbom.jpg)

LOL. Don't let Lucy Harris get it.
(http://www.i4m.com/think/jpeg/martin-harris.jpg)
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: ialmisry on August 23, 2010, 09:15:23 PM

AHHHHOOOGHHHHH....the pain...the icons are killing me....

Not.

I believe the icons are there to illustrate and instruct.  You know, kind of like the Gospel.

Speaking of the Gospel...

I cited the text, highlighted the precise words, guess the proverb is true, you can lead 'em to water, but can't make 'em drink

Wonder what's in those words you didn't highlight?

Let's take a look...


 54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
 55 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."



Then Christ contradicts Himself:

No, you just misrepresent Him, like the gnostics before you.  They too denied that the Word took flesh and dwelt among us. Some people can't learn from the mistakes of others.

Quote
63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

Luke 24:36 Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” 37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. 38 And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

Quote
But if we accept Christ's words as He meant them,

We do, but you with the rest of the gnostics do not. As St. Ignatius (who knew St. John) stated to the Church of Smyrna a few years after St. John sent Revelation to them:
Quote
I Glorify God, even Jesus Christ, who has given you such wisdom. For I have observed that you are perfected in an immoveable faith, as if you were nailed to the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, both in the flesh and in the spirit, and are established in love through the blood of Christ, being fully persuaded with respect to our Lord, that He was truly of the seed of David according to the flesh, Romans 1:3 and the Son of God according to the will and power of God; that He was truly born of a virgin, was baptized by John, in order that all righteousness might be fulfilled Matthew 3:15 by Him; and was truly, under Pontius Pilate and Herod the tetrarch, nailed [to the cross] for us in His flesh. Of this fruit we are by His divinely-blessed passion, that He might set up a standard Isaiah 5:26, Isaiah 49:22 for all ages, through His resurrection, to all His holy and faithful [followers], whether among Jews or Gentiles, in the one body of His Church.  Now, He suffered all these things for our sakes, that we might be saved. And He suffered truly, even as also He truly raised up Himself, not, as certain unbelievers maintain, that He only seemed to suffer, as they themselves only seem to be [Christians]. And as they believe, so shall it happen unto them, when they shall be divested of their bodies, and be mere evil spirits. For I know that after His resurrection also He was still possessed of flesh, and I believe that He is so now. When, for instance, He came to those who were with Peter, He said to them, Lay hold, handle Me, and see that I am not an incorporeal spirit. And immediately they touched Him, and believed, being convinced both by His flesh and spirit. For this cause also they despised death, and were found its conquerors. And after his resurrection He ate and drank with them, as being possessed of flesh, although spiritually He was united to the Father.  I give you these instructions, beloved, assured that you also hold the same opinions [as I do]. But I guard you beforehand from those beasts in the shape of men, whom you must not only not receive, but, if it be possible, not even meet with; only you must pray to God for them, if by any means they may be brought to repentance, which, however, will be very difficult. Yet Jesus Christ, who is our true life, has the power of [effecting] this. But if these things were done by our Lord only in appearance, then am I also only in appearance bound. And why have I also surrendered myself to death, to fire, to the sword, to the wild beasts? But, [in fact,] he who is near to the sword is near to God; he that is among the wild beasts is in company with God; provided only he be so in the name of Jesus Christ. I undergo all these things that I may suffer together with Him, Romans 8:17 He who became a perfect man inwardly strengthening me. Philippians 4:13 Some ignorantly deny Him, or rather have been denied by Him, being the advocates of death rather than of the truth. These persons neither have the prophets persuaded, nor the law of Moses, nor the Gospel even to this day, nor the sufferings we have individually endured. For they think also the same thing regarding us. For what does any one profit me, if he commends me, but blasphemes my Lord, not confessing that He was [truly] possessed of a body? But he who does not acknowledge this, has in fact altogether denied Him, being enveloped in death. I have not, however, thought good to write the names of such persons, inasmuch as they are unbelievers. Yea, far be it from me to make any mention of them, until they repent and return to [a true belief in] Christ's passion, which is our resurrection.  Let no man deceive himself. Both the things which are in heaven, and the glorious angels, and rulers, both visible and invisible, if they believe not in the blood of Christ, shall, in consequence, incur condemnation. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. Matthew 19:12 Let not [high] place puff any one up: for that which is worth all is faith and love, to which nothing is to be preferred. But consider those who are of a different opinion with respect to the grace of Christ which has come unto us, how opposed they are to the will of God. They have no regard for love; no care for the widow, or the orphan, or the oppressed; of the bond, or of the free; of the hungry, or of the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the very flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that you should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion [of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved. But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils.

Quote
then His words are spirit and they are life,

His are. Yours aren't.

Quote
not a cannibalistic ritual.

The Bloodless Sacrifice.

Quote
A Christless Christianity is not life, its death.

The sense of it is carried over in many different ways:

NKJ  James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
 (Jam 2:26 NKJ)

In other words, dead Orthodoxy does not save:

Live Orthodoxy is the only thing that does save.

Quote
18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe-- and tremble!
 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
 (Jam 2:18-20 NKJ)

James refuted the Rabbinical style argument in two different ways:
1)Belief in Orthodox monotheism does not save demons, they don't have works, therefore neither will it save you;
2)Faith can exist without works as documented by the demons, they believe so strongly they tremble, yet have no works.

You are disagreeing with your "apostolic" authority.
Are you still using this rule on what is "apostolic"?
Lets see you claim to be in apostolic sucession & yet say that someone (me) who finds an apostolic source as evidence of a veneration practice by apostolic Christians of the remains a martyred apsotolic Christian & that I trust these people as observing proper Christian burial rite as relying on unreliable hearsay?

The Church is Apostolic (ecclesia apostolica) inasmuch as all its members to the Last Day come to faith in Christ through the Word of the Apostles (John 17:20: πιστεύσοντες διὰ λόγου αὐτῶν εἰς ἐμέ) and cling to the Word of the Apostles (Acts 2:42: προσκαρτεροῦντες τῇ διδαχῇ τῶν ἀποστόλων), and this over against all departures from the truth of Scripture. Rom. 16:17: “Avoid them,” namely, those who “cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned.”
Pieper, F. (1999). Vol. 3: Christian Dogmatics (electronic ed.) (411). St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House.
1999? That's only 1900 years too late to be in contact with an Apostle to receive their teaching.

President Pieper also comes nearly 1800 years too late too.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/FranzAugustOttoPieper.jpg)

Like you, he was sent by no one sent by the Apostles, hence not sent by Christ, therefore not sent by God.

Odd that you should stand on him as an authority, as he was not only a confessional Lutheran, but one who held "quia subscription" to the Book of Concord, one of the examples of the tradition the Protestants supposedly don't have and don't follow. ::)
http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=10741
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessional_Lutheran#.22Quia.22_versus_.22Quatenus.22_subscription

Quia means he held, and required, the belief that the Book of Concord did not contradict Scripture, and because ("quia") of that, one must subcribe to its teachings.
Why Bible-Believing Lutherans Subscribe to the Book of Concord
http://www.wlsessays.net/node/385
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Melodist on August 23, 2010, 11:43:01 PM
Not talking about church organizations...My post is about being born again.

In Acts, Christ identified Himself with the Church. You can't have one without the other, you have to accept both. There is a word for when you seperate someone's head from their body - decapatation. This is exactly what you are doing when you remove the Head from the operation of the Body. The fact that you have no faith in the Body says something about your faith in the Head. You are "born again" when you are grafted into Christ, which is when you are baptized, which is into the Body -the Church. How you view the Church has everything to do with rebirth and regeneration - which is done in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Quote
I know icon venerators aren't born again, if the prototype dwelt in them, they wouldn't need images to speak to Him.

So here I am, talking about being born again, having Christ near, indwelling, rather than far away.


 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, "The man who does those things shall live by them."
 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart,`Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
 7 or, "`Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart " (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
 (Rom 10:5-11 NKJ)

You don't have to ask who will go to heaven, to bring God's Word down to you, nor who will uncover it, and bring it to you.

For in God you live and move and have your being, so He is not far from any one of us.

God Himself will put His Word in your mouth and in your heart, if you repent, and earnestly desire to confess Jesus publicly before angels and men.

THEN God puts His revelation Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, in your heart, and in your mouth, and confessing it, you are saved. Past tense, or rather, a completed action.

First, you can't presume to know the spiritual state of us "icon venerators" by your own standards. If you truly believe that nonsense about salvation being a completed thing in the past, then by your own standards many of the idolatrous icon venerators on here are saved, regenerate, and have Christ and the Holy Spirit indwelling by your own standards. A number of people on here, myslef included, have come from backgrounds that taught that same thing. I will use myself as an example. I was "saved" in a baptist church 13 years ago. I was "born again". It was a completed action and it is done and finished. So by your own standards, I can venerate all the icons I want and not have to worry because I am "saved" and the action is already completed so I'm OK because I have my "fire insurance".

Second, I hope the illustration above shows you why it is total nonsense to say that salvation is strictly an event that is fully completed in the past. This goes against the whole idea that in Him we live and move and have our being. Salvation isn't just something you get and then you just have it like a picture you hang on your wall. It's like a pair of shoes that you have to get up in the morning, put them on, and then continue to walk in them.

Third, confessing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, and believing it does absolutely no good if you're not even attempting to live according to that confession and belief. No one ever fully lives up to that because we're all a bunch of sinners, but one has to continually labor and struggle to be conformed to Christ.

Fourth, not one single person is recorded as becoming a Christian in the way you describe. Everyone is baptized. With the exception of those in the upper room on the day of Pentecost, there is not a single person who is received into the Church otherwise. Not Paul. Not Apollos. Not even the gentiles who miraculously recieved the Holy Spirit whe Peter preached, even they were baptized. The question was asked to Peter "what must we do to be saved" and the answer was believe and be baptized. It wasn't "just make a public confession that you believe", it wasn't "just believe", there was no "come up here and say a prayer accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior". It's just not there.

Fiifth, you're not looking at it in the context of loving God and neighbor with everything you have. If you truly loved God, you would wanna draw as near to Him as possible using everything available. How can someone say they love Christ wholly, but at the same time not want to live within the context of His Body, the Church, which he purchased with His own precious Blood.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Melodist on August 23, 2010, 11:56:31 PM
Precisely according to the New Testament, in God we live and move and have our being, therefore He is not far from any one of us:
27 "so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
 28 "for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said,`For we are also His offspring.'
 (Act 17:27-28 NKJ)

We do not require someone bring God's truth to us from heaven, or uncover it from some hiding place on earth, God Himself puts the revelation Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, in your heart and in your mouth, when you repent and earnestly desire Him as LORD over you and all you possess:

5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, "The man who does those things shall live by them."
 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart,`Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
 7 or, "`Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart " (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
 (Rom 10:5-11 NKJ)

That God providentially uses preachers to make you aware of this Gospel of truth doesn't make them a part of the process of salvation, just as a waiter isn't part of your meal.

And if that waiter won't bring you the food, there is always another who will.

As for the servant beaten with many stripes, he couldn't have been born again, for there is  now no condemnation for them who walk after the  Spirit:

NKJ  Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
 (Rom 8:1-8 NKJ)

Romans 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

1Cor 7:16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

1Cor 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

1Tim 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Jude 23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 24, 2010, 12:11:05 AM
Alfred, may I ask, what do you think about the so-called Oneness Pentecostalism? The reason I am asking is that the adherents of this movement have the same tendency you show: pick a great number of quotes from the Bible and support their "idea" that there is no Trinity.

They are heretical, I blame icons for their error, they combine the whole Christ, body soul, divinity, in one tiny image.

They certainly don't get their error from scripture, or do you accuse God of writing to confuse them?
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 24, 2010, 12:15:00 AM
I warned all I proselytize for Christ, not any denomination as none of them are right, all have gone astray.

And that's why you're starting up your new religious affiliation? Will Elijah care about that one either?

Could you ego get any more inflated?

Stop throwing all your Bible verses at me. The Church that canonized them went astray, so I don't have to recognize their authority.

Stay tuned to get my newly restored Gospel, written on golden tablets which I am currently translating:

(http://www.imagesoftherestoration.org/blog/wp-content/images/jstranslatingbom.jpg)

LOL. Don't let Lucy Harris get it.
(http://www.i4m.com/think/jpeg/martin-harris.jpg)

Its sad...when I recall John of Damascus, all he wrote, and compare  his output with your icon copy paste, that says nothing important.

Its sad.

Why not try citing scripture or the fathers, anything of value...comedy central?...
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 24, 2010, 12:47:37 AM
Not talking about church organizations...My post is about being born again.

In Acts, Christ identified Himself with the Church. You can't have one without the other, you have to accept both. There is a word for when you seperate someone's head from their body - decapatation. This is exactly what you are doing when you remove the Head from the operation of the Body. The fact that you have no faith in the Body says something about your faith in the Head. You are "born again" when you are grafted into Christ, which is when you are baptized, which is into the Body -the Church. How you view the Church has everything to do with rebirth and regeneration - which is done in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Quote
I know icon venerators aren't born again, if the prototype dwelt in them, they wouldn't need images to speak to Him.

So here I am, talking about being born again, having Christ near, indwelling, rather than far away.


 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, "The man who does those things shall live by them."
 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart,`Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
 7 or, "`Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart " (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
 (Rom 10:5-11 NKJ)

You don't have to ask who will go to heaven, to bring God's Word down to you, nor who will uncover it, and bring it to you.

For in God you live and move and have your being, so He is not far from any one of us.

God Himself will put His Word in your mouth and in your heart, if you repent, and earnestly desire to confess Jesus publicly before angels and men.

THEN God puts His revelation Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, in your heart, and in your mouth, and confessing it, you are saved. Past tense, or rather, a completed action.

First, you can't presume to know the spiritual state of us "icon venerators" by your own standards. If you truly believe that nonsense about salvation being a completed thing in the past, then by your own standards many of the idolatrous icon venerators on here are saved, regenerate, and have Christ and the Holy Spirit indwelling by your own standards. A number of people on here, myslef included, have come from backgrounds that taught that same thing. I will use myself as an example. I was "saved" in a baptist church 13 years ago. I was "born again". It was a completed action and it is done and finished. So by your own standards, I can venerate all the icons I want and not have to worry because I am "saved" and the action is already completed so I'm OK because I have my "fire insurance".

Second, I hope the illustration above shows you why it is total nonsense to say that salvation is strictly an event that is fully completed in the past. This goes against the whole idea that in Him we live and move and have our being. Salvation isn't just something you get and then you just have it like a picture you hang on your wall. It's like a pair of shoes that you have to get up in the morning, put them on, and then continue to walk in them.

Third, confessing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, and believing it does absolutely no good if you're not even attempting to live according to that confession and belief. No one ever fully lives up to that because we're all a bunch of sinners, but one has to continually labor and struggle to be conformed to Christ.

Fourth, not one single person is recorded as becoming a Christian in the way you describe. Everyone is baptized. With the exception of those in the upper room on the day of Pentecost, there is not a single person who is received into the Church otherwise. Not Paul. Not Apollos. Not even the gentiles who miraculously recieved the Holy Spirit whe Peter preached, even they were baptized. The question was asked to Peter "what must we do to be saved" and the answer was believe and be baptized. It wasn't "just make a public confession that you believe", it wasn't "just believe", there was no "come up here and say a prayer accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior". It's just not there.

Fiifth, you're not looking at it in the context of loving God and neighbor with everything you have. If you truly loved God, you would wanna draw as near to Him as possible using everything available. How can someone say they love Christ wholly, but at the same time not want to live within the context of His Body, the Church, which he purchased with His own precious Blood.

Not one scripture quote, not even a citation of a father, nothing but your claims of this and that. I claim you are wrong...so now we are even.

1)One can reason from an effect to its cause.

 Orthodox statements affirm icons convey veneration to the prototype, or somehow veneration given to them passes to the prototype. Either way, one must conclude the prototype is not present, if he were, then no icon would be needed.

2)Your concept of church is deficient, you believe its only the Orthodox church. But Paul didn't believe that. He knew schism would occur, and the church would splinter:

10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
 (1Co 3:10-15 NKJ)

Some churches have apostolic doctrine, gold, others rely on traditions of men, straw. When God tests these structures, the ones made of straw are burned up, but those in them, if they are on the foundation of Christ, are still saved, yet it will be as though they fled a burning building, with only their salvation intact, no rewards.

So you have a defective view of the church, God is infinite, and can save many more people than you give Him credit for:

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
(Rev 7:9-10 NKJ)

3)You claim I decapitated Christ's body, that is impossible,  its absurd. Better get a new illustration.

4)According to apostolic doctrine, confessing Jesus is the Christ saves, salvation is a whole lot of Good:

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 (Rom 10:9-10 NKJ)

Paul didn't qualify salvation, no caveat, no "but" in the text. Paul didn't say "you will be saved IF, and ONLY IF you can follow all the rules after the confession, even after you die, if you have one bad thought on the way to heaven, its to hell you will go! And once in heaven, you better not slip up...salvation can be lost forever, and its to hell you be hurled.

Hasta la vista baby! Fat chance you'll last very long.


4) 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 (Act 10:44-47 NKJ)

God doesn't have to wait for a confession, He knows the hearts. Your idea they have to wait for baptism to enter the church is contradicted by these, they drank of the One spirit before being baptized, that made them member of Christ's church before baptism, totally refuting your claim.

13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body-- whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free-- and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. (1Co 12:13 NKJ)

Spirit baptism,  not water baptism, which does not save:

NKJ  1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
 (1Pe 3:21 NKJ)

When the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, then the conscience gives a good answer, the person repents and believes, THEN one enters the church.

They don't have to wait for your water.

5)It is you who limit God's salvation to a few, not me. That's not very loving of you.


Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: theistgal on August 24, 2010, 12:53:58 AM
LOL ... when someone replies to you WITH Scripture verses you either ignore them or assert they have misinterpreted them. 

When someone replies to you WITHOUT Scripture verses you complain that they have nothing to back up their statements.

Is the heat getting to you, Alfred? :D
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: FormerReformer on August 24, 2010, 12:57:39 AM
Not talking about church organizations...My post is about being born again.

In Acts, Christ identified Himself with the Church. You can't have one without the other, you have to accept both. There is a word for when you seperate someone's head from their body - decapatation. This is exactly what you are doing when you remove the Head from the operation of the Body. The fact that you have no faith in the Body says something about your faith in the Head. You are "born again" when you are grafted into Christ, which is when you are baptized, which is into the Body -the Church. How you view the Church has everything to do with rebirth and regeneration - which is done in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Quote
I know icon venerators aren't born again, if the prototype dwelt in them, they wouldn't need images to speak to Him.

So here I am, talking about being born again, having Christ near, indwelling, rather than far away.


 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, "The man who does those things shall live by them."
 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart,`Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
 7 or, "`Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart " (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
 (Rom 10:5-11 NKJ)

You don't have to ask who will go to heaven, to bring God's Word down to you, nor who will uncover it, and bring it to you.

For in God you live and move and have your being, so He is not far from any one of us.

God Himself will put His Word in your mouth and in your heart, if you repent, and earnestly desire to confess Jesus publicly before angels and men.

THEN God puts His revelation Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, in your heart, and in your mouth, and confessing it, you are saved. Past tense, or rather, a completed action.

First, you can't presume to know the spiritual state of us "icon venerators" by your own standards. If you truly believe that nonsense about salvation being a completed thing in the past, then by your own standards many of the idolatrous icon venerators on here are saved, regenerate, and have Christ and the Holy Spirit indwelling by your own standards. A number of people on here, myslef included, have come from backgrounds that taught that same thing. I will use myself as an example. I was "saved" in a baptist church 13 years ago. I was "born again". It was a completed action and it is done and finished. So by your own standards, I can venerate all the icons I want and not have to worry because I am "saved" and the action is already completed so I'm OK because I have my "fire insurance".

Second, I hope the illustration above shows you why it is total nonsense to say that salvation is strictly an event that is fully completed in the past. This goes against the whole idea that in Him we live and move and have our being. Salvation isn't just something you get and then you just have it like a picture you hang on your wall. It's like a pair of shoes that you have to get up in the morning, put them on, and then continue to walk in them.

Third, confessing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, and believing it does absolutely no good if you're not even attempting to live according to that confession and belief. No one ever fully lives up to that because we're all a bunch of sinners, but one has to continually labor and struggle to be conformed to Christ.

Fourth, not one single person is recorded as becoming a Christian in the way you describe. Everyone is baptized. With the exception of those in the upper room on the day of Pentecost, there is not a single person who is received into the Church otherwise. Not Paul. Not Apollos. Not even the gentiles who miraculously recieved the Holy Spirit whe Peter preached, even they were baptized. The question was asked to Peter "what must we do to be saved" and the answer was believe and be baptized. It wasn't "just make a public confession that you believe", it wasn't "just believe", there was no "come up here and say a prayer accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior". It's just not there.

Fiifth, you're not looking at it in the context of loving God and neighbor with everything you have. If you truly loved God, you would wanna draw as near to Him as possible using everything available. How can someone say they love Christ wholly, but at the same time not want to live within the context of His Body, the Church, which he purchased with His own precious Blood.

Not one scripture quote, not even a citation of a father, nothing but your claims of this and that. I claim you are wrong...so now we are even.

1)One can reason from an effect to its cause.

 Orthodox statements affirm icons convey veneration to the prototype, or somehow veneration given to them passes to the prototype. Either way, one must conclude the prototype is not present, if he were, then no icon would be needed.

2)Your concept of church is deficient, you believe its only the Orthodox church. But Paul didn't believe that. He knew schism would occur, and the church would splinter:

10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
 (1Co 3:10-15 NKJ)

Some churches have apostolic doctrine, gold, others rely on traditions of men, straw. When God tests these structures, the ones made of straw are burned up, but those in them, if they are on the foundation of Christ, are still saved, yet it will be as though they fled a burning building, with only their salvation intact, no rewards.

So you have a defective view of the church, God is infinite, and can save many more people than you give Him credit for:

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
(Rev 7:9-10 NKJ)

3)You claim I decapitated Christ's body, that is impossible,  its absurd. Better get a new illustration.

4)According to apostolic doctrine, confess Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God does a whole lot of Good:

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 (Rom 10:9-10 NKJ)

I don't see Paul qualify this salvation, there is no caveat...no you will be saved "IF you can follow all the rules after the confession, after you die faithful, then and only then will you be saved, provided you don't think any bad thoughts, ever."

4) 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 (Act 10:44-47 NKJ)

God doesn't have to wait for a confession, He knows the hearts. Your idea they have to wait for baptism to enter the church is contradicted by these, they drank of the One spirit before being baptized, that made them member of Christ's church before baptism, totally refuting your claim.
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body-- whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free-- and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. (1Co 12:13 NKJ)

Spirit baptism,  not water baptism, which does not save:

NKJ  1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
 (1Pe 3:21 NKJ)

When the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, then the conscience gives a good answer, the person repents and believes, THEN one enters the church.

They don't have to wait for your water.

5)It is you who limit God's salvation to a few, not me. That's not very loving of you.



Matt 7:21- Not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" shall enter the Kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Matt 7:26- But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine and does not do them will be likened to a foolish man who built his house upon the sand.

Matt 28:19- Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

Mark 16:16- He who believes and is baptized will be saved
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 24, 2010, 01:02:41 AM
LOL ... when someone replies to you WITH Scripture verses you either ignore them or assert they have misinterpreted them.  

When someone replies to you WITHOUT Scripture verses you complain that they have nothing to back up their statements.

Is the heat getting to you, Alfred? :D

Nope---correctly interpret scripture and I will be pleased, I promise.

By the way, what are you looking at? The Garden I bet....
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 24, 2010, 01:08:52 AM
Matt 7:21- Not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" shall enter the Kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Matt 7:26- But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine and does not do them will be likened to a foolish man who built his house upon the sand.

Matt 28:19- Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

Mark 16:16- He who believes and is baptized will be saved

Its the will of the Father we believe in Jesus:

 28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
 (Joh 6:28-29 NKJ)

Mat 16:16 doesn't teach baptism is necessary for salvation, it only says it happens among those who really believe. In Mark's day, any Jew getting baptised was forsaking all he owned, to follow Christ. So baptism is being use "adjectivally" to modify belief, it indicates true belief is required, the kind of belief that will follow Christ wherever He goes.

That this is so is proved by the text itself:

 16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. (Mar 16:16 NKJ)

Only non belief condemns.

If not being baptized condemned, then it would have been listed twice, just as belief is.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: FormerReformer on August 24, 2010, 01:11:03 AM
LOL ... when someone replies to you WITH Scripture verses you either ignore them or assert they have misinterpreted them.  

When someone replies to you WITHOUT Scripture verses you complain that they have nothing to back up their statements.

Is the heat getting to you, Alfred? :D

Incorrect, correctly interpret scripture and I will be pleased, I promise.

30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 The place in the Scripture which he read was this:


      “ He was led as a sheep to the slaughter;
      And as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
       So He opened not His mouth.
       33 In His humiliation His justice was taken away,
      And who will declare His generation?
      For His life is taken from the earth.”

34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

Acts 8:30-38
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: FormerReformer on August 24, 2010, 01:14:14 AM


Mat 16:16 doesn't teach baptism is necessary for salvation, it only says it happens among those who really believe. In Mark's day, any Jew getting baptised was forsaking all he owned, to follow Christ. So baptism is being use "adjectivally" to modify belief, it indicates true belief is required, the kind of belief that will follow Christ wherever He goes.


The bolded portion itself is incorrect, baptism was a common Judaic ritual of purification and a sign on repentance.  That belief is required to go along with the baptism of a new convert is something our Church teaches as well.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 24, 2010, 01:21:15 AM
LOL ... when someone replies to you WITH Scripture verses you either ignore them or assert they have misinterpreted them.  

When someone replies to you WITHOUT Scripture verses you complain that they have nothing to back up their statements.

Is the heat getting to you, Alfred? :D

Incorrect, correctly interpret scripture and I will be pleased, I promise.

30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 The place in the Scripture which he read was this:


      “ He was led as a sheep to the slaughter;
      And as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
       So He opened not His mouth.
       33 In His humiliation His justice was taken away,
      And who will declare His generation?
      For His life is taken from the earth.”

34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

Acts 8:30-38

Yes, and these were saved before water baptism so you are wrong, God doesn't fit in your tiny box:

 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
 (Act 10:44-48 NKJ)



Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: theistgal on August 24, 2010, 01:21:32 AM
No, I'm afraid to look at the garden right now - it's in a sorry state with temps over 100!
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: PeterTheAleut on August 24, 2010, 01:22:41 AM
LOL ... when someone replies to you WITH Scripture verses you either ignore them or assert they have misinterpreted them.  

When someone replies to you WITHOUT Scripture verses you complain that they have nothing to back up their statements.

Is the heat getting to you, Alfred? :D

Nope---correctly interpret scripture and I will be pleased, I promise.
So what's your measure for the correct interpretation of Scripture?
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: SolEX01 on August 24, 2010, 01:25:14 AM
Alfred, just give up and try proselytizing elsewhere.  You will never convince me of anything.

Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: FormerReformer on August 24, 2010, 01:27:57 AM
LOL ... when someone replies to you WITH Scripture verses you either ignore them or assert they have misinterpreted them.  

When someone replies to you WITHOUT Scripture verses you complain that they have nothing to back up their statements.

Is the heat getting to you, Alfred? :D

Incorrect, correctly interpret scripture and I will be pleased, I promise.

30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 The place in the Scripture which he read was this:


      “ He was led as a sheep to the slaughter;
      And as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
       So He opened not His mouth.
       33 In His humiliation His justice was taken away,
      And who will declare His generation?
      For His life is taken from the earth.”

34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

Acts 8:30-38

Yes, and these were saved before water baptism so you are wrong, God doesn't fit in your tiny box:

 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
 (Act 10:44-48 NKJ)





And the Thief gained paradise without baptism.  But notice the Gentiles were baptized.  God doesn't fit in our boxes, but when He tells you to get in the box it's generally a good idea to listen.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: ialmisry on August 24, 2010, 02:11:04 AM
LOL ... when someone replies to you WITH Scripture verses you either ignore them or assert they have misinterpreted them.  

When someone replies to you WITHOUT Scripture verses you complain that they have nothing to back up their statements.

Is the heat getting to you, Alfred? :D

Incorrect, correctly interpret scripture and I will be pleased, I promise.

30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 The place in the Scripture which he read was this:


      “ He was led as a sheep to the slaughter;
      And as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
       So He opened not His mouth.
       33 In His humiliation His justice was taken away,
      And who will declare His generation?
      For His life is taken from the earth.”

34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

Acts 8:30-38

Yes, and these were saved before water baptism so you are wrong, God doesn't fit in your tiny box:

I just came across a story on St. Alexander Hotovitsky the Neo-Martyr in a contemporary article on Patriarch St. Tikhon:
Quote
The anecdote I heard in Moscow about Father Hotovitsky, of the Church of the Savior is indicative of the sort of priests here mentioned. There is probably no more remarkable preacher in Russia than Father Hotovitsky. His sermons are very modern both in their theology and in their practical application. He was drawn into a discussion with Lunacharsky, Commissar of Education, on the omnipresence of God. “You say that God is everywhere”, Lunacharsky told him. “Now you will surely admit that one could imagine a small box somewhere without God’s being in the box”. “But why suppose an imaginary box”, Hotovitsky retorted, when we have you, Mr. Commissar?”
http://orthodoxhistory.org/

Quote
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
 (Act 10:44-48 NKJ)

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.




[/quote]
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: jnorm888 on August 24, 2010, 10:37:24 AM
Alfred Persson,


Interpret this verse for me:

Acts 22:16
And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

What is this verse saying?

Also, what support do you have from the church fathers and early christian writers?

What support do you have from ecumenical councils? When you first came here you said you embraced the Nicene/Constantinople 1 creed. The Nicene/Constantinople 1 creed said:

"one baptism for the forgiveness of sins,"


Why do you believe that you are the only person on the planet that can interpret Scripture correctly? What support do you have for your view from church fathers and church councils?

If you don't have support then your interpretation of Scripture is most likely false.










ICXC NIKA
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Heorhij on August 24, 2010, 10:41:17 AM
Alfred, may I ask, what do you think about the so-called Oneness Pentecostalism? The reason I am asking is that the adherents of this movement have the same tendency you show: pick a great number of quotes from the Bible and support their "idea" that there is no Trinity.

They are heretical, I blame icons for their error, they combine the whole Christ, body soul, divinity, in one tiny image.

They certainly don't get their error from scripture, or do you accuse God of writing to confuse them?

They do get their error from reading Scripture wrongly. Maybe you do, too?
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: PeterTheAleut on August 24, 2010, 01:47:02 PM
Alfred, may I ask, what do you think about the so-called Oneness Pentecostalism? The reason I am asking is that the adherents of this movement have the same tendency you show: pick a great number of quotes from the Bible and support their "idea" that there is no Trinity.

They are heretical, I blame icons for their error, they combine the whole Christ, body soul, divinity, in one tiny image.

They certainly don't get their error from scripture, or do you accuse God of writing to confuse them?
Do Oneness Pentecostals even use icons?
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Heorhij on August 24, 2010, 03:11:11 PM
Alfred, may I ask, what do you think about the so-called Oneness Pentecostalism? The reason I am asking is that the adherents of this movement have the same tendency you show: pick a great number of quotes from the Bible and support their "idea" that there is no Trinity.

They are heretical, I blame icons for their error, they combine the whole Christ, body soul, divinity, in one tiny image.

They certainly don't get their error from scripture, or do you accuse God of writing to confuse them?
Do Oneness Pentecostals even use icons?

But of course they don't. I doubt that most of them have ever even seen icons. Oneness Pentecostals are yet another branch of Evangelical Protestantism. A.k.a. Bibleolatry.  :P
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: PeterTheAleut on August 24, 2010, 03:14:37 PM
Alfred, may I ask, what do you think about the so-called Oneness Pentecostalism? The reason I am asking is that the adherents of this movement have the same tendency you show: pick a great number of quotes from the Bible and support their "idea" that there is no Trinity.

They are heretical, I blame icons for their error, they combine the whole Christ, body soul, divinity, in one tiny image.

They certainly don't get their error from scripture, or do you accuse God of writing to confuse them?
Do Oneness Pentecostals even use icons?

But of course they don't. I doubt that most of them have ever even seen icons. Oneness Pentecostals are yet another branch of Evangelical Protestantism. A.k.a. Bibleolatry.  :P
So, then, if icons cannot be to blame because Oneness Pentecostals don't use them, then there can be only one cause of their modalist heresy: an errant reading of the Scriptures (much like Alfred's errant reading of the Scriptures?).
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Heorhij on August 24, 2010, 03:28:16 PM
Alfred, may I ask, what do you think about the so-called Oneness Pentecostalism? The reason I am asking is that the adherents of this movement have the same tendency you show: pick a great number of quotes from the Bible and support their "idea" that there is no Trinity.

They are heretical, I blame icons for their error, they combine the whole Christ, body soul, divinity, in one tiny image.

They certainly don't get their error from scripture, or do you accuse God of writing to confuse them?
Do Oneness Pentecostals even use icons?

But of course they don't. I doubt that most of them have ever even seen icons. Oneness Pentecostals are yet another branch of Evangelical Protestantism. A.k.a. Bibleolatry.  :P
So, then, if icons cannot be to blame because Oneness Pentecostals don't use them, then there can be only one cause of their modalist heresy: an errant reading of the Scriptures (much like Alfred's errant reading of the Scriptures?).

Absolutely. I am sure that's exactly the case.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 24, 2010, 07:30:27 PM
Alfred Persson,


Interpret this verse for me:

Acts 22:16
And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

What is this verse saying?

Also, what support do you have from the church fathers and early christian writers?

What support do you have from ecumenical councils? When you first came here you said you embraced the Nicene/Constantinople 1 creed. The Nicene/Constantinople 1 creed said:

"one baptism for the forgiveness of sins,"


Why do you believe that you are the only person on the planet that can interpret Scripture correctly? What support do you have for your view from church fathers and church councils?

If you don't have support then your interpretation of Scripture is most likely false.



Peter says precisely what he means, but you misunderstand him, he is very clear that baptism, washing with water, are not what saves, its when a person repents and believes in Christ=answer of a good conscience to God, that results in the power of Christ's resurrection, regenerating your soul so that it becomes a "new creature""

There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1Pe 3:21 NKJ)

I and the fathers are in perfect agreement, they never cite each other and say "thus it is written," nor do I cite them that way.

The fathers never cite each other and say, "thus saith the LORD," nor do I cite them them that way.

The Fathers never say the consensus of the Fathers rules the roost, and neither do I.

As a primitive Christian, you will note my posts are just like their writings, they cite scripture to prove their points, so do I!



I reject all ecumenical councils, all of them. It does not matter the first taught truth, it bore nasty fruit as the church became enamored with itself and it began making rule upon rule:

 13 But the word of the LORD was to them, "Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little," That they might go and fall backward, and be broken And snared and caught. (Isa 28:13 NKJ)


AND I don't believe I am the only person who can interpret scripture.

Why do you believe God wrote to confuse everyone?



Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: theistgal on August 24, 2010, 08:30:04 PM
LOL ... it's those ecumenical councils you reject that compiled the Scriptures you're using to reject them! 

Oh well, I give thanks to God every day that "He remembers that we are dust" - someday He'll settle all these little squabbles amongst His quarrelling children ...

So how hot is it in your area today, Alfred?  Here it's 105 and rising ... :)
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 24, 2010, 08:50:40 PM
LOL ... it's those ecumenical councils you reject that compiled the Scriptures you're using to reject them! 

Oh well, I give thanks to God every day that "He remembers that we are dust" - someday He'll settle all these little squabbles amongst His quarrelling children ...

So how hot is it in your area today, Alfred?  Here it's 105 and rising ... :)

Yes, a scorcher, southern California Inland Empire hot...but at night it will drop down to 64. Love that.

If I lived at the time of Nicea...I would have agreed to it like everyone else, but from my perspective now...seeing how it resulted in men running the show, instead of Christ...I say no to all of them.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: theistgal on August 24, 2010, 09:57:47 PM
Well, you have a right to your opinion ... just be aware others don't share your opinion, and be humble enough to admit that you might be wrong (as might we).  God knows our hearts and He knows WHY each of us thinks the way we do ... and I have it on good authority that He is "patient and long-suffering".

Try to stay cool - don't get hot under the collar! :)
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Fr. George on August 24, 2010, 11:10:58 PM
Yes, and these were saved before water baptism so you are wrong, God doesn't fit in your tiny box:

 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
 (Act 10:44-48 NKJ)

Incorrect, otherwise the Baptism would have been unnecessary; Peter commanded rightly that they also be baptized, to complete the "born again" process - "born from above of water and the Spirit."  One cannot be excluded, just as it is not with us - as we are born again of water (Baptism) and the Spirit (Chrismation).
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 24, 2010, 11:29:17 PM
Yes, and these were saved before water baptism so you are wrong, God doesn't fit in your tiny box:

 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
 (Act 10:44-48 NKJ)

Incorrect, otherwise the Baptism would have been unnecessary; Peter commanded rightly that they also be baptized, to complete the "born again" process - "born from above of water and the Spirit."  One cannot be excluded, just as it is not with us - as we are born again of water (Baptism) and the Spirit (Chrismation).

Impossible, Peter says they received the Holy Spirit just as the he and those with him...so the process was completed.

Born of water and spirit is born of repentance and regeneration, you are confusing the two as one. If regeneration came because of water, then spirit wouldn't be mentioned, it would be redundant. That it is the Spirit who gives life, not the water, is seen in vss 6, 8, only the Spirit is mentioned.

5 Jesus answered,  “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.  7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.-nkjv

Peter was clear, its not the water or baptism that regenerates, its resurrection power that raised Jesus from the dead in response to repentance, the answer of a good conscience with God:

NKJ  1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1Pe 3:21 NKJ)



Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 24, 2010, 11:37:45 PM
Well, you have a right to your opinion ... just be aware others don't share your opinion, and be humble enough to admit that you might be wrong (as might we).  God knows our hearts and He knows WHY each of us thinks the way we do ... and I have it on good authority that He is "patient and long-suffering".

Try to stay cool - don't get hot under the collar! :)

I will try...My only concern is Christ rule in your heart... that His path be made straight. I'm not here to lead any to another church, they all have fault, all have gone astray...One can remain in the church where they are, and do right by Christ.

I have a big view of the One Universal Church, according to 1 Cor 3:10-15 it covers lots of different denominations, as long as they have the one foundation of Christ, its irrelevant what their other beliefs are.

 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
 (1Co 3:10-15 NKJ)

Even those in churches made of straw will be saved yet as though they fled a burning building, with only their salvation intact, no rewards because they did build with straw = human traditions.


Icon's upset me because I see them as interfering with a personal relationship with God, I am quite certain God hates all images of Him, so I am "hot" on that.

But the other things...if Christ indwells, He does everything in His own time which might not be till the Kingdom comes...I don't judge you:

11 For it is written: "As I live, says the LORD, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God."
 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.
 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way.
 (Rom 14:11-13 NKJ)

I am convinced all in Christ will be saved, regardless whether they are Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, or Other like me (primitive Orthodox). But I know the Joy of Christ's indwelling, so I want to share that with others.

Of course I will argue any doctrine of the faith, but that isn't as important as Christ indwelling. Anything that stops that, I hate and I am convinced icons do.

See...now you made me ramble...its back to work...

May our God grant peace to your house
al
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: sainthieu on August 24, 2010, 11:49:47 PM
Al: You're not going to convert anyone here any time soon. Go away. You''re boring.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: theistgal on August 24, 2010, 11:52:01 PM
Hey, he has a right to post here till the mods tell him otherwise.  If it's boring to you, don't read it. 
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 25, 2010, 12:01:27 AM
Well, you have a right to your opinion ... just be aware others don't share your opinion, and be humble enough to admit that you might be wrong (as might we).  God knows our hearts and He knows WHY each of us thinks the way we do ... and I have it on good authority that He is "patient and long-suffering".

Try to stay cool - don't get hot under the collar! :)

I've been going through the Fathers, and am finding my exegesis of Mat 16:18 often, that confessing the divine revelation Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God= born again.

I will post these after I gather them...here is one:

And perhaps that which Simon Peter answered and said, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God, ”65 if we say it as Peter, not by flesh and blood revealing it unto us, but by the light from the Father in heaven shining in our heart, we too become as Peter, being pronounced blessed as he was, because that the grounds on which he was pronounced blessed apply also to us, by reason of the fact that flesh and blood have not revealed to us with regard to Jesus that He is Christ, the Son of the living God, but the Father in heaven, from the very heavens, that our citizenship may be in heaven,66 revealing to us the revelation which carries up to heaven those who take away every veil from the heart, and receive “the spirit of the wisdom and revelation” of God.67 And if we too have said like Peter, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,” not as if flesh and blood had revealed it unto us, but by light from the Father in heaven having shone in our heart, we become a Peter, and to us there might be said by the Word, “Thou art Peter,” etc.68 For a rock69 is every disciple of Christ of whom those drank who drank of the spiritual rock which followed them,70 and upon every such rock is built every word of the church, add the polity in accordance with it; for in each of the perfect, who have the combination of words and deeds and thoughts which fill up the blessedness, is the church built by God.-Origin, From the Second Book of the Commentary on the Gospel According to Matthew, Book XII, 10.

Many then will say to the Saviour, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God; ”but not all who say this will say it to Him, as not at all having learned it by the revelation of flesh and blood but by the Father in heaven Himself taking away the veil that lay upon their heart, in order that after this “with unveiled face reflecting as a mirror the glory of the Lord”76 they may speak through the Spirit of God saying concerning Him, “Lord Jesus,” and to Him, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.”77 And if any one says this to Him, not by flesh and blood revealing it unto Him but through the Father in heaven, he will obtain the things that were spoken according to the letter of the Gospel to that Peter, but, as the spirit of the Gospel teaches, to every one who becomes such as that Peter was. For all bear the surname of “rock” who are the imitators of Christ, that is, of the spiritual rock which followed those who are being saved,78 that they may drink from it the spiritual draught. But these bear the surname of the rock just as Christ does.-Ibid, 11.

Roberts, A., Donaldson, J., & Coxe, A. C. (1997). The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol. X  : Translations of the writings of the Fathers down to A.D. 325. The Gospel of Peter by Professor J. Armitage Robinson, Introduction and Synoptical Table by Andrew Rutherfurd, B.D. (456). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems.

Roberts, A., Donaldson, J., & Coxe, A. C. (1997). The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol. X  : Translations of the writings of the Fathers down to A.D. 325. The Gospel of Peter by Professor J. Armitage Robinson, Introduction and Synoptical Table by Andrew Rutherfurd, B.D. (455). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Fr. George on August 25, 2010, 12:36:23 AM
Yes, and these were saved before water baptism so you are wrong, God doesn't fit in your tiny box:

 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
 (Act 10:44-48 NKJ)

Incorrect, otherwise the Baptism would have been unnecessary; Peter commanded rightly that they also be baptized, to complete the "born again" process - "born from above of water and the Spirit."  One cannot be excluded, just as it is not with us - as we are born again of water (Baptism) and the Spirit (Chrismation).

Impossible, Peter says they received the Holy Spirit just as the he and those with him...so the process was completed.

Born of water and spirit is born of repentance and regeneration, you are confusing the two as one. If regeneration came because of water, then spirit wouldn't be mentioned, it would be redundant. That it is the Spirit who gives life, not the water, is seen in vss 6, 8, only the Spirit is mentioned.

5 Jesus answered,  “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.  7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.-nkjv

Peter was clear, its not the water or baptism that regenerates, its resurrection power that raised Jesus from the dead in response to repentance, the answer of a good conscience with God:

NKJ  1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1Pe 3:21 NKJ)

According to your logic, there was no reason to Baptize them, as they had already received the Spirit; and yet Peter "commanded" them to be baptized.  Why?  Was he performing an empty act?  A vain repetition?  Testing their obedience to his authority?  Doing something to not cause scandal amongst the Jewish believers?  No, but rather doing what he must, by completing the Divine-human cooperation represented in the "water and the Spirit" formula.  Christ commanded "water and the Spirit," a formula which directs for two not one.  If you wish to state otherwise, the burden of proof lies with you to do so, since the interpretation I've put forth aligns with the literal formula from Christ's mouth as recorded in the scripture.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 25, 2010, 09:01:35 AM
Yes, and these were saved before water baptism so you are wrong, God doesn't fit in your tiny box:

 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
 (Act 10:44-48 NKJ)

Incorrect, otherwise the Baptism would have been unnecessary; Peter commanded rightly that they also be baptized, to complete the "born again" process - "born from above of water and the Spirit."  One cannot be excluded, just as it is not with us - as we are born again of water (Baptism) and the Spirit (Chrismation).

Impossible, Peter says they received the Holy Spirit just as the he and those with him...so the process was completed.

Born of water and spirit is born of repentance and regeneration, you are confusing the two as one. If regeneration came because of water, then spirit wouldn't be mentioned, it would be redundant. That it is the Spirit who gives life, not the water, is seen in vss 6, 8, only the Spirit is mentioned.

5 Jesus answered,  “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.  7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.-nkjv

Peter was clear, its not the water or baptism that regenerates, its resurrection power that raised Jesus from the dead in response to repentance, the answer of a good conscience with God:

NKJ  1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1Pe 3:21 NKJ)

According to your logic, there was no reason to Baptize them, as they had already received the Spirit; and yet Peter "commanded" them to be baptized.  Why?  Was he performing an empty act?  A vain repetition?  Testing their obedience to his authority?  Doing something to not cause scandal amongst the Jewish believers?  No, but rather doing what he must, by completing the Divine-human cooperation represented in the "water and the Spirit" formula.  Christ commanded "water and the Spirit," a formula which directs for two not one.  If you wish to state otherwise, the burden of proof lies with you to do so, since the interpretation I've put forth aligns with the literal formula from Christ's mouth as recorded in the scripture.

Baptism is not an empty act, but it is an act, not something that acts on us.

Baptism is an ordinance commanded by Christ (Mt 28:19). and symbolizes our union with Christ into death & resurrection (Rom 6:3f), but it does not act on us, regenerate...that is what the Holy Spirit does.

The use of water is closely connected t purification in the Law...We repent, confess sin, and are "purified" by the water...but its in symbol only, not actual:

which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

NKJ  1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

KJV  1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

NET  1 Peter 3:21 And this prefigured baptism, which now saves you– not the washing off of physical dirt but the pledge of a good conscience to God– through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

MIT  1 Peter 3:21 That experience also now provides you an analogy of rescue by baptism—not the bathing off of filth from flesh, but a good conscience responding to God on the basis of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: recent convert on August 25, 2010, 09:52:51 AM
Alfred, may I ask, what do you think about the so-called Oneness Pentecostalism? The reason I am asking is that the adherents of this movement have the same tendency you show: pick a great number of quotes from the Bible and support their "idea" that there is no Trinity.

They are heretical, I blame icons for their error, they combine the whole Christ, body soul, divinity, in one tiny image.

They certainly don't get their error from scripture, or do you accuse God of writing to confuse them?
Do Oneness Pentecostals even use icons?

But of course they don't. I doubt that most of them have ever even seen icons. Oneness Pentecostals are yet another branch of Evangelical Protestantism. A.k.a. Bibleolatry.  :P
Is Alfred a Trinitarian Christian?
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 25, 2010, 01:49:57 PM
LOL ... when someone replies to you WITH Scripture verses you either ignore them or assert they have misinterpreted them.  

When someone replies to you WITHOUT Scripture verses you complain that they have nothing to back up their statements.

Is the heat getting to you, Alfred? :D

Incorrect, correctly interpret scripture and I will be pleased, I promise.

30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 The place in the Scripture which he read was this:


      “ He was led as a sheep to the slaughter;
      And as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
       So He opened not His mouth.
       33 In His humiliation His justice was taken away,
      And who will declare His generation?
      For His life is taken from the earth.”

34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

Acts 8:30-38

You should state your argument, lest I not see your point. Apparently you believe scripture contradicts itself, or the apostle Peter was wrong that the answer of a good conscience is what saves, not the water washing the flesh.

I don't believe that.

There is a difference between following an accepted practice, and explaining that practice. Peter's explanation of what saves, the answer of a good conscience, is directly relevant and material to what saves....whereas a report of a baptism, being it isn't addressing the precise issue Peter was discussing, does not contradict Peter, because then you are superimposing your interpretation onto that baptism---assuming its correct, and using that to contradict Peter. You have no authority to contradict Peter.

Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: ialmisry on August 25, 2010, 01:58:32 PM
LOL ... when someone replies to you WITH Scripture verses you either ignore them or assert they have misinterpreted them.  

When someone replies to you WITHOUT Scripture verses you complain that they have nothing to back up their statements.

Is the heat getting to you, Alfred? :D

Incorrect, correctly interpret scripture and I will be pleased, I promise.

30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 The place in the Scripture which he read was this:


      “ He was led as a sheep to the slaughter;
      And as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
       So He opened not His mouth.
       33 In His humiliation His justice was taken away,
      And who will declare His generation?
      For His life is taken from the earth.”

34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

Acts 8:30-38

You should state your argument, lest I not see your point. Apparently you believe scripture contradicts itself,

No, just shows that your misunderstanding contradicts itself and scripture.

or the apostle Peter was wrong that the answer of a good conscience is what saves, not the water washing the flesh.

No, the Church of Peter and the Apostles, the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church, washes sins. Baptism by pretenders only gets your flesh wet.

I don't believe that.


"We believe in One Baptism for the remission of sins." So says Christ's Church.

What you believe is immaterial.

There is a difference between following an accepted practice, and explaining that practice. Peter's explanation of what saves, the answer of a good conscience, is directly relevant and material to what saves....whereas a report of a baptism, being it isn't addressing the precise issue Peter was discussing, does not contradict Peter, because then you are superimposing your interpretation onto that baptism, and assuming its correct, and using that to contradict Peter.
No, he is just understanding the Church's teaching of the book she wrote. Whereas the exogesis he quotes will fit all the verses on Baptism, your idiosyncretic eisogesis will not.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 25, 2010, 02:01:27 PM
Alfred, may I ask, what do you think about the so-called Oneness Pentecostalism? The reason I am asking is that the adherents of this movement have the same tendency you show: pick a great number of quotes from the Bible and support their "idea" that there is no Trinity.

They are heretical, I blame icons for their error, they combine the whole Christ, body soul, divinity, in one tiny image.

They certainly don't get their error from scripture, or do you accuse God of writing to confuse them?
Do Oneness Pentecostals even use icons?

But of course they don't. I doubt that most of them have ever even seen icons. Oneness Pentecostals are yet another branch of Evangelical Protestantism. A.k.a. Bibleolatry.  :P
Is Alfred a Trinitarian Christian?

Yes, I am. No to the filioque however.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Melodist on August 25, 2010, 03:52:47 PM
Not one scripture quote, not even a citation of a father, nothing but your claims of this and that. I claim you are wrong...so now we are even.

I just spent 4 hours putting scripture quotes to everything in my reply and my internet connection messed up when I went to post. Please forgive me for not taking another 4 hours to look everything back up and rewrite everything.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: SolEX01 on August 25, 2010, 04:46:31 PM

Quote
Is Alfred a Trinitarian Christian?

Yes, I am. No to the filioque however.

What iconoclast believes in the Nicene Creed without the filoque unless you reinvented Roman Catholicism to suit your own belief systems?
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: ialmisry on August 25, 2010, 06:31:01 PM
I warned all I proselytize for Christ, not any denomination as none of them are right, all have gone astray.

And that's why you're starting up your new religious affiliation? Will Elijah care about that one either?

Could you ego get any more inflated?

Stop throwing all your Bible verses at me. The Church that canonized them went astray, so I don't have to recognize their authority.

Stay tuned to get my newly restored Gospel, written on golden tablets which I am currently translating:

(http://www.imagesoftherestoration.org/blog/wp-content/images/jstranslatingbom.jpg)

LOL. Don't let Lucy Harris get it.
(http://www.i4m.com/think/jpeg/martin-harris.jpg)

Its sad...when I recall John of Damascus, all he wrote, and compare  his output

You would have to read him first to recall all he wrote, and you amply demonstrated in your thread slandering him and blaspheming God that you haven't a clue as to what he, and He, wrote.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29148.0.html

with your icon copy paste, that says nothing important.

Then ignore it.

Its sad.

yes, watching you inherit the wind is.

Why not try citing scripture or the fathers, anything of value...comedy central?...
because your posts are Comedy Central material.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 25, 2010, 09:50:42 PM

Quote
Is Alfred a Trinitarian Christian?

Yes, I am. No to the filioque however.

What iconoclast believes in the Nicene Creed without the filoque unless you reinvented Roman Catholicism to suit your own belief systems?

While I accept just about all of the first few councils...I don't always agree with the consequences. For example, yes, Mary is theotokos, you cannot separate the divine nature from the Person, the Person was incarnate in the flesh, therefore Mary is "God bearer" or "mother of God."

But it doesn't follow we should call her that, the words imply much more than the orthodox equation, there are folks who hear the title, and conclude Mary is Mother of His divinity.

AND as the scripture NEVER calls Mary "Mother of God", the title itself cannot be part of the deposit of the faith the apostles "once delivered" to us in the first century:

NKJ  Jude 1:3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. (Jud 1:3 NKJ)

Therefore, although the logic might be impeccable, its not "apostolic doctrine" we use the title. It is self evident it implies much more than what the Orthodox mean, therefore the title's use does not follow the apostolic command to stand fast in apostolic tradition that we received, either through their preached word (which became the NT), or letter, which now are Bible books.

NKJ  2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. (2Th 2:15 NKJ)

By the way, the above is why I believe in sola scriptura...I can only believe what the apostles themselves taught, and as their material can be found uncorrupted only in scripture...sola scriptura.

This does not mean I won't consider extra-biblical tradition or data, I do it all the time, it only means that is never on the same level as scripture, it alone is the arbiter of truth.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: theistgal on August 25, 2010, 09:58:48 PM
While I accept just about all of the first few councils...I don't always agree with the consequences. For example, yes, Mary is theotokos, you cannot separate the divine nature from the Person, the Person was incarnate in the flesh, therefore Mary is "God bearer" or "mother of God."

But it doesn't follow we should call her that, the words imply much more than the orthodox equation, there are folks who hear the title, and conclude Mary is Mother of His divinity.

AND as the scripture NEVER calls Mary "Mother of God", the title itself cannot be part of the deposit of the faith the apostles "once delivered" to us in the first century:

And Elizabeth said, "Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come unto me?"  (Luke 1:43)

So Alfred - who would Elizabeth, a devout Jew who lived BEFORE Christ was born, consider her "Lord"?
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 25, 2010, 10:02:33 PM
While I accept just about all of the first few councils...I don't always agree with the consequences. For example, yes, Mary is theotokos, you cannot separate the divine nature from the Person, the Person was incarnate in the flesh, therefore Mary is "God bearer" or "mother of God."

But it doesn't follow we should call her that, the words imply much more than the orthodox equation, there are folks who hear the title, and conclude Mary is Mother of His divinity.

AND as the scripture NEVER calls Mary "Mother of God", the title itself cannot be part of the deposit of the faith the apostles "once delivered" to us in the first century:

And Elizabeth said, "Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come unto me?"  (Luke 1:43)

So Alfred - who would Elizabeth, a devout Jew who lived BEFORE Christ was born, consider her "Lord"?

Still don't see God teaching we must proclaim Mary is Mother of God.

Our preaching is to be the gospel of Christ, who He is, what He taught, His death and resurrection, etc. Not once do the apostles preach about Mary, they are focused on Christ.

So its like agreeing with Ephesus against Nestorius, yet declining to use the title because its not apostolic doctrine we use it.


I can agree with you the idea of Mary being mother of God is there in that text, yet disagree about the propriety of us proclaiming that...the apostles didn't, neither should we...its not part of the Gospel they preached.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: jnorm888 on August 25, 2010, 10:17:36 PM
Alfred Persson,


How do the fathers interpret the Scriptures you quote?
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: theistgal on August 25, 2010, 10:17:51 PM
What I'm saying is that "Mother of my LORD" to Elizabeth MEANT "Mother of God", and since that's right there in Scripture, then: 

"Ipso facto, ergo sum,
God says Mary is His Mum!"

(and ours too!) :D
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: jnorm888 on August 25, 2010, 10:22:02 PM
Alfred Persson,


What is your view or interpretation of "the rule of faith"? Or what some might call "the scope of faith"?

Do you know what the fathers and nonfathers had to say about the "rule of faith"? So why should we depart from that when interpreting the Scriptures?
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Fr. George on August 25, 2010, 10:28:37 PM
I can agree with you the idea of Mary being mother of God is there in that text, yet disagree about the propriety of us proclaiming that...the apostles didn't, neither should we...its not part of the Gospel they preached.

Yikes, argumentum ex silentio.  You do understand that, at best, you're "guessing," right?  Unless you're postulating that 100% of everything that the Apostles ever said, from the time they met Jesus until the time they each died, is recorded and preserved somewhere where we can find it.  Abductive reasoning has its pitfalls; yes, we must use it sometimes, but in the field of Theology one must be careful when trying your hand at it, since it very frequently leads to heresy, as Arius, Nestorius, et al. can attest.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: genesisone on August 25, 2010, 10:48:51 PM
But it doesn't follow we should call her that, the words imply much more than the orthodox equation, there are folks who hear the title, and conclude Mary is Mother of His divinity.

You are quite right that you are not the only person to draw wrong conclusions about the Orthodox faith. Perhaps a little humility to try to learn what is taught might be in order
Quote
....apostolic tradition that we received, either through their preached word (which became the NT), or letter, which now are Bible books.

Please clarify. It appears that you're saying the NT is a collection of sermons, but apparently not Bible books. Any guesses what happened to anything else the Apostles might have said or written?

Quote
This does not mean I won't consider extra-biblical tradition or data, I do it all the time, it only means that is never on the same level as scripture, it alone is the arbiter of truth.

So scripture (or did you mean Scripture) outranks the Holy Spirit?
"However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth...."(John 16:13, NKJV)

And please don't try to explain it away by saying something like, "the Holy Spirit will guide you into all scriptural truth....; or "all truth as contained in the Scriptures". But somehow I think you are more likely to tell me that the Holy Spirit is limited by the words of Scripture.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 25, 2010, 11:34:45 PM
I can agree with you the idea of Mary being mother of God is there in that text, yet disagree about the propriety of us proclaiming that...the apostles didn't, neither should we...its not part of the Gospel they preached.

Yikes, argumentum ex silentio.  You do understand that, at best, you're "guessing," right?  Unless you're postulating that 100% of everything that the Apostles ever said, from the time they met Jesus until the time they each died, is recorded and preserved somewhere where we can find it.  Abductive reasoning has its pitfalls; yes, we must use it sometimes, but in the field of Theology one must be careful when trying your hand at it, since it very frequently leads to heresy, as Arius, Nestorius, et al. can attest.

Incorrect, I argue for the gospel the apostles preached, ruling out what they didn't preach.

I never said the idea can't be discussed when appropriate, say in disputes about Christ's divinity. The text clearly implies the pre-existent Lord was in Mary's womb. It has its place in the body of texts that prove Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal Son of God.

But Catholicism made it a title, and Marian veneration is now greater than what Jesus receives. To suggest we need Mary's intercession to motivate God to help us, when He sent His only begotten Son to save us, is an insult and a lie, close to blaspheming God. Only those who don't know God can believe they need Mary's intercession to gain His attention and help. Christians are the apple of His eye, His help is always there for us, He is always focused on each one of us, we are His delight, His children. A loving parent doesn't need the intercession of inlaws before they care for their children.

Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 25, 2010, 11:46:23 PM
Alfred Persson,


What is your view or interpretation of "the rule of faith"? Or what some might call "the scope of faith"?

Do you know what the fathers and nonfathers had to say about the "rule of faith"? So why should we depart from that when interpreting the Scriptures?

For me, the "scope of the faith", is the deposit of the apostles, and that material is found today ONLY in our Scripture, not church tradition...the latter is hearsay, not on the same level as direct witness.


Show me where the fathers (up to Nicea, not after), cite the consensus of the fathers, or each other as authority. It appears to me they cite scripture.

A few appeal to the universal interpretation of a text, saying "thus saith the Catholic church", meaning the interpretation, as it is believed everywhere in the church, must be  "apostolic", otherwise what explains the interpretation's "catholicity."

But they didn't mean the church was the source of the teaching, rather they believed the apostles had to be.

So it seems to me the ECF's believed as I do, not as you. Correct me if I am wrong, cite their words citing each other as authority...or appealing to a consensus of the fathers. Thanks in advance.


Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: FormerReformer on August 25, 2010, 11:53:58 PM
I can agree with you the idea of Mary being mother of God is there in that text, yet disagree about the propriety of us proclaiming that...the apostles didn't, neither should we...its not part of the Gospel they preached.

Yikes, argumentum ex silentio.  You do understand that, at best, you're "guessing," right?  Unless you're postulating that 100% of everything that the Apostles ever said, from the time they met Jesus until the time they each died, is recorded and preserved somewhere where we can find it.  Abductive reasoning has its pitfalls; yes, we must use it sometimes, but in the field of Theology one must be careful when trying your hand at it, since it very frequently leads to heresy, as Arius, Nestorius, et al. can attest.

Incorrect, I argue for the gospel the apostles preached, ruling out what they didn't preach.

I never said the idea can't be discussed when appropriate, say in disputes about Christ's divinity. The text clearly implies the pre-existent Lord was in Mary's womb. It has its place in the body of texts that prove Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal Son of God.

But Catholicism made it a title, and Marian veneration is now greater than what Jesus receives. To suggest we need Mary's intercession to motivate God to help us, when He sent His only begotten Son to save us, is an insult and a lie, close to blaspheming God. Only those who don't know God can believe they need Mary's intercession to gain His attention and help. Christians are the apple of His eye, His help is always there for us, He is always focused on each one of us, we are His delight, His children. A loving parent doesn't need the intercession of inlaws before they care for their children.



Is it an insult or close to blaspheming God to ask a friend, pastor, or church(what we'd call a parish) to pray for you?  Is it taking the role of God to pray for someone else? 
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: SolEX01 on August 26, 2010, 12:00:38 AM
Methinks our friend Alfred, along with Mel Gibson and Anne Rice have created 3 distinct sects of Roman Catholicism without being One, Holy, Catholic or Apostolic.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: PeterTheAleut on August 26, 2010, 02:35:13 AM
Alfred Persson,


What is your view or interpretation of "the rule of faith"? Or what some might call "the scope of faith"?

Do you know what the fathers and nonfathers had to say about the "rule of faith"? So why should we depart from that when interpreting the Scriptures?

For me, the "scope of the faith", is the deposit of the apostles, and that material is found today ONLY in our Scripture
Something you have yet to prove to my satisfaction...  And don't give me this baloney that man cannot help but write down divine revelation.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 26, 2010, 06:18:40 AM
I can agree with you the idea of Mary being mother of God is there in that text, yet disagree about the propriety of us proclaiming that...the apostles didn't, neither should we...its not part of the Gospel they preached.

Yikes, argumentum ex silentio.  You do understand that, at best, you're "guessing," right?  Unless you're postulating that 100% of everything that the Apostles ever said, from the time they met Jesus until the time they each died, is recorded and preserved somewhere where we can find it.  Abductive reasoning has its pitfalls; yes, we must use it sometimes, but in the field of Theology one must be careful when trying your hand at it, since it very frequently leads to heresy, as Arius, Nestorius, et al. can attest.

Incorrect, I argue for the gospel the apostles preached, ruling out what they didn't preach.

I never said the idea can't be discussed when appropriate, say in disputes about Christ's divinity. The text clearly implies the pre-existent Lord was in Mary's womb. It has its place in the body of texts that prove Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal Son of God.

But Catholicism made it a title, and Marian veneration is now greater than what Jesus receives. To suggest we need Mary's intercession to motivate God to help us, when He sent His only begotten Son to save us, is an insult and a lie, close to blaspheming God. Only those who don't know God can believe they need Mary's intercession to gain His attention and help. Christians are the apple of His eye, His help is always there for us, He is always focused on each one of us, we are His delight, His children. A loving parent doesn't need the intercession of inlaws before they care for their children.



Is it an insult or close to blaspheming God to ask a friend, pastor, or church(what we'd call a parish) to pray for you?  Is it taking the role of God to pray for someone else?  

No, that's an act of fellowship, of loving concern for one another, community in the presence of God, but lest you think God require that to hear the prayers of His children, it is written:

 7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
 10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
 (Mat 7:7-11 KJV)

NKJ  John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. (Joh 15:16 NKJ)

NKJ  John 16:24 "Until now you have asked nothing in My name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full. (Joh 16:24 NKJ)


Your analogy is like biting into apples and claiming  it tastes the same as an orange, that is unsound.


It is evident from all the doctrine regarding Mary that she is no longer human, therefore prayer for her intercession is qualitatively different than asking for the intercession of a mere human.

That is perfectly clear from all the titles and offices heaped upon her, and her attributes. There seems to be nothing God does, that cannot be appropriated to Mary.

http://biblelight.net/omnip.htm

Asking her for anything is NOT like asking your friend or pastor, not even close.

And its fundamentally an insult one must "twist God's arm" by having Jesus' Mother intercede...to move a heartless or unconcerned God, to action. As though God didn't care, wasn't watching, or was distracted and needed Mary's intervention to get His attention.

The fundamental premises of Mary's intercession being desirable contradict scriptural teaching that God is Omniscient, Omnipresent, and near dwelling in believers.

Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Nigula Qian Zishi on August 26, 2010, 08:19:29 AM
LOL ... when someone replies to you WITH Scripture verses you either ignore them or assert they have misinterpreted them.  

When someone replies to you WITHOUT Scripture verses you complain that they have nothing to back up their statements.

Is the heat getting to you, Alfred? :D

Nope---correctly interpret scripture and I will be pleased, I promise.

By the way, what are you looking at? The Garden I bet....

Who decided correct interpretation? You? No. The Church? Yes.

True knowledge is [that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]; and [it consists in] reading [the word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy; and [above all, it consists in] the pre-eminent gift of love, which is more precious than knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and which excels all the other gifts [of God]." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4,33:8 (inter A.D. 180-199).

"But if there be any (heresies) which are bold enough to plant themselves in the midst of the apostolic age, that they may thereby seem to have been handed down by the apostles, because they existed in the time of the apostles, we can say: Let them produce the original records of their churches; let them unfold the roll of their bishops, running down in due succession from the beginning in such a manner that [that first bishop of theirs] bishop shall be able to show for his ordainer and predecessor some one of the apostles or of apostolic men - a man, moreover, who continued steadfast with the apostles. For this is the manner in which the apostolic churches transmit their registers: as the church of Smyrna, which records that Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the church of Rome, which makes Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter. In exactly the same way the other churches likewise exhibit (their several worthies), whom, as having been appointed to their episcopal places by apostles, they regard as transmitters of the apostolic seed. Let the heretics contrive something of the same kind�� Tertullian, On Prescription against the Heretics, 32 (c. A.D. 200).

�To this test, therefore will they be submitted for proof by those churches, who, although they derive not their founder from apostles or apostolic men (as being of much later date, for they are in fact being founded daily), yet, since they agree in the same faith, they are accounted as not less apostolic because they are akin in doctrine. Then let all the heresies, when challenged to these two tests by our apostolic church, offer their proof of how they deem themselves to be apostolic. But in truth they neither are so, nor are they able to prove themselves to be what they are not. Nor are they admitted to peaceful relations and communion by such churches as are in any way connected with apostles, inasmuch as they are in no sense themselves apostolic because of their diversity as to the mysteries of the faith." Tertullian, On Prescription against the Heretics, 32 (c. A.D. 200).

"For those are slothful who, having it in their power to provide themselves with proper proofs for the divine Scriptures from the Scriptures themselves, select only what contributes to their own pleasures. And those have a craving for glory who voluntarily evade, by arguments of a diverse sort, the things delivered by the blessed apostles and teachers, which are wedded to inspired words; opposing the divine tradition by human teachings, in order to establish the heresy." Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 7:16 (post A.D. 202).

"When heretics show us the canonical Scriptures, in which every Christian believes and trusts, they seem to be saying: 'Lo, he is in the inner rooms [the word of truth] ' (Matt 24.6). But we must not believe them, nor leave the original tradition of the Church, nor believe otherwise than we have been taught by the succession in the Church of God." Origen, Homilies on Matthew, Homily 46, PG 13:1667 (ante A.D. 254).

"A most precious possession therefore is the knowledge of doctrines: also there is need of a wakeful soul, since there are many that make spoil through philosophy and vain deceit. The Greeks on the one hand draw men away by their smooth tongue, for honey droppeth from a harlot's lips: whereas they of the Circumcision deceive those who come to them by means of the Divine Scriptures, which they miserably misinterpret though studying them from childhood to all age, and growing old in ignorance. But the children of heretics, by their good words and smooth tongue, deceive the hearts of the innocent, disguising with the name of Christ as it were with honey the poisoned arrows of their impious doctrines: concerning all of whom together the Lord saith, Take heed lest any man mislead you. This is the reason for the teaching of the Creed and for expositions upon it." Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 4:2 (A.D. 350).

"And, O wretched heretic! You turn the weapons granted to the Church against the Synagogue, against belief in the Church's preaching, and distort against the common salvation of all the sure meaning of a saving doctrine." Hilary of Poitiers, On the Trinity, 12:36 (inter A.D. 356-359).

"But since they allege the divine oracles and force on them a misinterpretation, according to their private sense, it becomes necessary to meet them just so far as to vindicate these passages, and to show that they bear an orthodox sense, and that our opponents are in error." Athanasius, Discourse Against the Arians, I:37 (A.D. 362).

"To refuse to follow the Fathers, not holding their declaration of more authority than one's own opinion, is conduct worthy of blame, as being brimful of self-sufficiency." Basil, EpistleTo the Canonicae, 52:1 (A.D. 370).

"While (the sects) mutually refute and condemn each other, it has happened to truth as to Gideon; that is, while they fight against each other, and fall under wounds mutually inflicted, they crown her. All the heretics acknowledge that there is a true Scripture. Had they all falsely believed that none existed, some one might reply that such Scripture was unknown to them. But now that have themselves taken away the force of such plea, from the fact that they have mutilated the very Scriptures. For they have corrupted the sacred copies; and words which ought to have but one interpretation, they have wrested to strange significations. Whilst, when one of them attempts this, and cuts off a member of his own body, the rest demand and claim back the severed limb...It is the church which perfect truth perfects. The church of believers is great, and its bosom most ample; it embraces the fulness (or, the whole) of the two Testaments." Ephraem, Adv. Haeres (ante A.D. 373).

"Who knows not that what separates the Church from heresy is this term, 'product of creation, ' applied to the Son? Accordingly, the doctrinal difference being universally acknowledged, what would be the reasonable course for a man to take who endeavors to show that his opinions are more true than ours?" Gregory of Nyssa, Against Eunomius, 4:6 (inter A.D. 380-384).

"For heresies, and certain tenets of perversity, ensnaring souls and hurling them into the deep, have not sprung up except when good Scriptures are not rightly understood, and when that in them which is not rightly understood is rashly and boldly asserted. And so, dearly beloved, ought we very cautiously to hear those things for the understanding of which we are but little ones, and that, too, with pious heart and with trembling, as it is written, holding this rule of soundness, that we rejoice as in food in that which we have been able to understand, according to the faith with which we are imbued�" Augustine, On the Gospel of John, Homily XVIII:1 (A.D. 416).

"If you produce from the divine scriptures something that we all share, we shall have to listen. But those words which are not found in the scriptures are under no circumstance accepted by us, especially since the Lord warns us, saying, In vain they worship me, teaching human commandments and precepts' (Mt 5:19)" Maximinus (Arch-Arian Heretic), Debate with Maximinus, 1 (c. A.D. 428).

"Therefore, as I said above, if you had been a follower and assertor of Sabellianism or Arianism or any heresy you please, you might shelter yourself under the example of your parents, the teaching of your instructors, the company of those about you, the faith of your creed. I ask, O you heretic, nothing unfair, and nothing hard. As you have been brought up in the Catholic faith, do that which you would do for a wrong belief. Hold fast to the teaching of your parents. Hold fast the faith of the Church: hold fast the truth of the Creed: hold fast the salvation of baptism." John Cassian, Incarnation of the Lord, 6:5 (c. A.D. 429).

"I have often then inquired earnestly and attentively of very many men eminent for sanctity and learning, how and by what sure and so to speak universal rule I may be able to distinguish the truth of Catholic faith from the falsehood of heretical depravity; and I have always, and in almost every instance, received an answer to this effect: That whether I or any one else should wish to detect the frauds and avoid the snares of heretics as they rise, and to continue sound and complete in the Catholic faith, we must, the Lord helping, fortify our own belief in two ways; first, by the authority of the Divine Law, and then, by the Tradition of the Catholic Church." Vincent of Lerins, Commonitory of the Antiquity and Universality of the Catholic Faith, 2:4 (A.D. 434).

"But the Church of Christ, the careful and watchful guardian of the doctrines deposited in her charge, never changes anything in them, never diminishes, never adds, does not cut off what is necessary, does not add what is superfluous, does not lose her own, does not appropriate what is another's, but while dealing faithfully and judiciously with ancient doctrine, keeps this one object carefully in view, if there be anything which antiquity has left shapeless and rudimentary, to fashion and polish it, if anything already reduced to shape and developed, to consolidate and strengthen it, if any already ratified and defined to keep and guard it. Finally, what other object have Councils ever aimed at in their decrees, than to provide that what was before believed in simplicity should in future be believed intelligently, that what was before preached coldly should in future be preached earnestly, that what was before practiced negligently should thenceforward be practiced with double solicitude? This, I say, is what the Catholic Church, roused by the novelties of heretics, has accomplished by the decrees of her Councils, this, and nothing else, has thenceforward consigned to posterity in writing what she had received from those of olden times only by tradition, comprising a great amount of matter in a few words, and often, for the better understanding, designating an old article of the faith by the characteristic of a new name." Vincent of Lerins, Commonitory of the Antiquity and Universality of the Catholic Faith, 23:59 (A.D. 434).

"[A]ll heresies, that they evermore delight in profane novelties, scorn the decisions of antiquity, and ...make shipwreck of the faith. On the other hand, it is the sure characteristic of Catholics to keep that which has been committed to their trust by the holy Fathers..." Vincent of Lerins, Commonitory of the Anitquity and Universality of the Catholic Faith, 24:63 (A.D. 434).

"His (Nestorius) first attempt at innovation was, that the holy Virgin, who bore the Word of God, who took flesh of her, ought not to be confessed to be the mother of God, but only the mother of Christ; though of old, yea from the first, the preachers of the orthodox faith taught, agreeably to the apostolic tradition, that the mother of God. And now let me produce his blasphemous artifice and observation unknown to any one before him." Theodoret of Cyrus, Compendium of Heretics' Fables, 12 (c.A.D. 453).
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Fr. George on August 26, 2010, 12:35:28 PM
I can agree with you the idea of Mary being mother of God is there in that text, yet disagree about the propriety of us proclaiming that...the apostles didn't, neither should we...its not part of the Gospel they preached.
Yikes, argumentum ex silentio.  You do understand that, at best, you're "guessing," right?  Unless you're postulating that 100% of everything that the Apostles ever said, from the time they met Jesus until the time they each died, is recorded and preserved somewhere where we can find it.  Abductive reasoning has its pitfalls; yes, we must use it sometimes, but in the field of Theology one must be careful when trying your hand at it, since it very frequently leads to heresy, as Arius, Nestorius, et al. can attest.
Incorrect, I argue for the gospel the apostles preached, ruling out what they didn't preach.

Again, argumentum ex silentio.  You're guessing that the Apostles didn't preach it because you haven't found it in the extant texts; but that assumes that (a) 100% of what the Apostles taught made it into the texts, (b) 100% of the texts have made it to the present day, and (c) you have read 100% of the texts.  That's a lot of guesswork, my friend, and your inability to see that makes this discussion nearly impossible.

But Catholicism made it a title, and Marian veneration is now greater than what Jesus receives.

You seem to forget that we're not Western Roman Catholics here.  I suppose it's an easy mistake for someone who doesn't research their friends/opponents/etc. well.

To suggest we need Mary's intercession to motivate God to help us, when He sent His only begotten Son to save us, is an insult and a lie, close to blaspheming God. Only those who don't know God can believe they need Mary's intercession to gain His attention and help. Christians are the apple of His eye, His help is always there for us, He is always focused on each one of us, we are His delight, His children. A loving parent doesn't need the intercession of inlaws before they care for their children.

My, my, ignoring the multiple scriptural cases of intercession, aren't we?  You've built, dressed, and burned two strawmen in this paragraph, while ignoring fundamental premises of intercession that are present in the scripture.  *Yawn.*
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: theistgal on August 26, 2010, 12:48:56 PM
Hey Alfred, remember the story of the Wedding at Cana, described in the 2nd chapter of the Gospel of John?

Remember when Mary interceded with Jesus on behalf of the bride and bridegroom, embarrassed because they'd run out of wine?

Jesus tells her, basically, that it's none of her business or His, and that His time has not yet come.

Now you or I might hear Him say that and say, "Oh, well, OK, then, Lord, I accept that and won't ask you any more.

Yet Mary just outright ignores him, tells the waiters to do whatever Jesus tells them to do -

AND HE DOES IT!!    :o

In other words, Mary "interceded" on behalf of the bride and bridegroom, and persuaded Jesus to change His mind and help them!!  8)

From Day One, particularly after reading this story, Christians have known that Mary is the one you want on your side when you're asking Her Son for help.

And there's your Scriptural precedent for the value of her intercession, right there.

After all, Jesus COULD have said, "Sorry, Mom, I know you're only trying to help, but the bridegroom needs to come and ask me DIRECTLY - I don't take indirect requests!"

Tell us - why DIDN'T He say something like that?  Surely He (being God) must have known that His followers would read about this incident and conclude it was OK to ask His mom for help.  If He didn't want that, why didn't He tell anyone?  ???
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: FormerReformer on August 26, 2010, 02:52:48 PM
Quote
that's an act of fellowship, of loving concern for one another, community in the presence of God,

And our asking intercessions from the Blessed Theotokos as well as the saints is an act of fellowship and a sign that community in the presence of God does not end just because the earthly life has ended.  In fact, we ask the intercessions of saints and the Theotokos because they are literally the "community in the presence of God".


Quote
Your analogy is like biting into apples and claiming  it tastes the same as an orange, that is unsound.

No, my analogy is like biting into a Red Delicious and saying that it tastes very similar to the Gold Delicious.  Prayer is prayer, the only difference between our prayers and the prayers of the saints is that the earthly veil has been removed from the latter, they ring the throne of God.

Quote
It is evident from all the doctrine regarding Mary that she is no longer human, therefore prayer for her intercession is qualitatively different than asking for the intercession of a mere human.

Lord, save me from being a "mere" human!  But if you're saying that our doctrine regarding the Blessed Virgin Mary means that in any way, shape, or form we denigrate her humanity then you know absolutely nothing of our prayers for intercession.  However, to say that the Mother of our Lord was a "mere" human is to denigrate absolutely everything Christianity means, that we are united to the Body of Christ through the Church.  You who claim to admire St Athanasius ponder this statement: "The Divine became man so that Man may become divine".

Quote
Asking her for anything is NOT like asking your friend or pastor, not even close.

Only insofar as none of my friends nor my priest could claim the greatest miracle of the Incarnation happened within them, that the Infinite Word, God who cannot be contained, was for nine months contained. 

Quote
And its fundamentally an insult one must "twist God's arm" by having Jesus' Mother intercede...to move a heartless or unconcerned God, to action. As though God didn't care, wasn't watching, or was distracted and needed Mary's intervention to get His attention.

Again, the above statement shows you know nothing of our intercessory prayers.  We don't ask the Theotokos for intercession because God is heartless or unconcerned.  We ask for intercession from the Mother of the Man-befriending God, the Mother of Deliverance, to the Mother of the Son Who has willed to grant mercy to us.

In other words, we ask intercessions of the Blessed Virgin precisely because God loves us and is concerned for us. 

Again, it doesn't stop at the Theotokos, we ask intercession from all our saints, because they were faithful to the end, while we are still running the race.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: bogdan on August 26, 2010, 11:23:10 PM
It is evident from all the doctrine regarding Mary that she is no longer human, therefore prayer for her intercession is qualitatively different than asking for the intercession of a mere human.
She is most certainly a human.

She is a human who has come into the fullness of what it means to be a human being, that is theosis. In theosis, a person becomes a partaker in the divine nature. That means that we can wield seemingly supernatural powers insofar as they match up with God's will. That is why the Apostles could do miracles, healing people even via their shadows and handkerchiefs. The power to do these things comes from God by virtue of their level of unity to the will of God. When they are of one will with God, humans gain the ability to enact the will of God directly. This is what God always wanted for humans.

The only reason the Blessed Theotokos seems superhuman is because she has risen above the subhuman level the rest of us are at. It is not she who somehow is better than the rest of us, a demigod, but rather we prefer to wallow in our mudholes like so many swine. If we claimed our humanity in Christ, we would also be like the Theotokos and the Saints.

That is perfectly clear from all the titles and offices heaped upon her, and her attributes. There seems to be nothing God does, that cannot be appropriated to Mary.

That is because she participates in the Divine Energies of God. That is what Theosis—Salvation—means. Christ himself said those who came afterwards would do even greater things than he did. Does that mean the divine grace comes from the Saints themselves? Of course not.

All divine grace comes from God. But God consistently chooses to mediate his grace through human beings, rituals, angels, and other material and immaterial things. You rarely read in the Bible of things just magically happening. No.

Before you start on "only one mediator", let me be clear: there is certainly only one mediator between God the Father and Mankind. That is Jesus Christ. But there are many mediators between Jesus Christ and mankind. Sometimes we mediate for ourselves, but often we mediate for each other. Most of us can only mediate through prayer, but some of us are so united with Christ that they are able to mediate his grace directly. But it's still ultimately coming and going through Christ.

And its fundamentally an insult one must "twist God's arm" by having Jesus' Mother intercede...to move a heartless or unconcerned God, to action. As though God didn't care, wasn't watching, or was distracted and needed Mary's intervention to get His attention.

The fundamental premises of Mary's intercession being desirable contradict scriptural teaching that God is Omniscient, Omnipresent, and near dwelling in believers.

As I said above, God uses intermediaries for his grace: people, rituals, objects, and immaterial persons. Examples: the prophets, sacrifices, baptism, the apostles, circumcision, the golden serpent, the cross, Peter's shadow, Paul's handkerchiefs, etc etc etc. God doesn't zap magical power down on people when they pray. Rather he mediates his grace through material means.

And intercession is not celestial arm-twisting. Rather it is an act of mutual love between the Son and his Mother, and her participation in the grace of the Trinity. Her will is perfectly united to his. For a picture of how this works, look at 1 Kings 2:17-20. Such a relationship between the King and the Queen-Mother was well known in Israel's history. It certainly isn't the odd image you present.



Alfred, you really need to become thoroughly familiar with the things you're attempting to debate before doing so. You have demonstrated that you don't know what we believe about intercession, theosis (and salvation in general), divine energies and grace, and most of all the place of the Theotokos and the saints. You throw out assumptions based on Roman Catholicism and you argue against bizarre misinterpretations of what we believe.

It's fine if you want to debate with us, but it's hard to respect a debate opponent who doesn't do his homework first.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 27, 2010, 01:21:58 AM
Regeneration
NKJ  Titus 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration(παλιγγενεσίας) and renewing of the Holy Spirit, (Tit 3:5 NKJ)

NKJ  Matthew 19:28 So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration (παλιγγενεσίᾳ), when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Mat 19:28 NKJ)

Compare:

CJB  Matthew 19:28 Yeshua said to them, "Yes. I tell you that in the regenerated world, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Isra'el. (Mat 19:28 CJB)



So how is the world "regenerated"? When the Kingdom of God, the Complete revelation come, then the realm of partial revelation will cease to exist:

10 But when that which is perfect(τέλειον) has come, then that which is in part(μέρους) will be done away.
 11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. (1Co 13:108-12 NKJ)


It is the addition of divine nature, God's Holy Spirit imparting full revelation of God that our "Partial" lacks, once it is added, the Complete is here, and the partial ceases to exist. Then we know even as we are known.


Therefore water has nothing to do with regeneration, both "The washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit" a work of God's Holy Spirit.

 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
 (Tit 3:5-6 NKJ)


 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4 NKJ)

 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
 (Col 2:12-13 KJV)

 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1Co 12:13 KJV)


Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 27, 2010, 02:02:03 AM
I can agree with you the idea of Mary being mother of God is there in that text, yet disagree about the propriety of us proclaiming that...the apostles didn't, neither should we...its not part of the Gospel they preached.
Yikes, argumentum ex silentio.  You do understand that, at best, you're "guessing," right?  Unless you're postulating that 100% of everything that the Apostles ever said, from the time they met Jesus until the time they each died, is recorded and preserved somewhere where we can find it.  Abductive reasoning has its pitfalls; yes, we must use it sometimes, but in the field of Theology one must be careful when trying your hand at it, since it very frequently leads to heresy, as Arius, Nestorius, et al. can attest.
Incorrect, I argue for the gospel the apostles preached, ruling out what they didn't preach.

Again, argumentum ex silentio.  You're guessing that the Apostles didn't preach it because you haven't found it in the extant texts; but that assumes that (a) 100% of what the Apostles taught made it into the texts, (b) 100% of the texts have made it to the present day, and (c) you have read 100% of the texts.  That's a lot of guesswork, my friend, and your inability to see that makes this discussion nearly impossible.

But Catholicism made it a title, and Marian veneration is now greater than what Jesus receives.

You seem to forget that we're not Western Roman Catholics here.  I suppose it's an easy mistake for someone who doesn't research their friends/opponents/etc. well.

To suggest we need Mary's intercession to motivate God to help us, when He sent His only begotten Son to save us, is an insult and a lie, close to blaspheming God. Only those who don't know God can believe they need Mary's intercession to gain His attention and help. Christians are the apple of His eye, His help is always there for us, He is always focused on each one of us, we are His delight, His children. A loving parent doesn't need the intercession of inlaws before they care for their children.

My, my, ignoring the multiple scriptural cases of intercession, aren't we?  You've built, dressed, and burned two strawmen in this paragraph, while ignoring fundamental premises of intercession that are present in the scripture.  *Yawn.*

You would be right if I were implying all the Twelve preached is in the NT, but I am not.

I say all apostolic doctrine required to be "complete and thoroughly equipped for every good work," which includes the work of teaching others true doctrine, is found in scripture...so it is written:

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)


So it is not an argument from silence as all that makes the man of God complete, is in scripture. Therefore, if it isn't in scripture, its not equipment I need to be complete.

Its is wrtten:

 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. (Jud 1:3 NKJ)


This means all that is necessary to be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work in Christ, which includes teachings others The Way perfectly, was delivered to the church in the days of Jude. As Paul says Scripture contains it all....

All motive for speculation what they might have said, that isn't in the Bible, is removed as  whatever it might be, is not necessary for our being "equipped" for the good work of teaching others the Way of Salvation.

AND your speculation, being it can't be document in scripture, runs the risk of "adding to God's Word, what He has not spoken."

I tremble at the thought of being guilty of that, don't you?



As for asking Mary compel God give us what we ask, you ignored Jesus' teaching we ask in His name, and receive everything we ask for...you aren't suggesting Christ was wrong, are you?

23 ... Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you.
 24 "Until now you have asked nothing in My name. Ask, and you will receive,
that your joy may be full.
 (Joh 16:23-24 NKJ)

Everything I ask God for, in Jesus' name, I get, don't you?

Of course this excludes what isn't consistent with His will, but I never ask for what would be against His will.




Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 27, 2010, 02:29:57 AM
Hey Alfred, remember the story of the Wedding at Cana, described in the 2nd chapter of the Gospel of John?

Remember when Mary interceded with Jesus on behalf of the bride and bridegroom, embarrassed because they'd run out of wine?

Jesus tells her, basically, that it's none of her business or His, and that His time has not yet come.

Now you or I might hear Him say that and say, "Oh, well, OK, then, Lord, I accept that and won't ask you any more.

Yet Mary just outright ignores him, tells the waiters to do whatever Jesus tells them to do -

AND HE DOES IT!!    :o

In other words, Mary "interceded" on behalf of the bride and bridegroom, and persuaded Jesus to change His mind and help them!!  8)

From Day One, particularly after reading this story, Christians have known that Mary is the one you want on your side when you're asking Her Son for help.

And there's your Scriptural precedent for the value of her intercession, right there.

After all, Jesus COULD have said, "Sorry, Mom, I know you're only trying to help, but the bridegroom needs to come and ask me DIRECTLY - I don't take indirect requests!"

Tell us - why DIDN'T He say something like that?  Surely He (being God) must have known that His followers would read about this incident and conclude it was OK to ask His mom for help.  If He didn't want that, why didn't He tell anyone?  ???

Excellent argument, true enough, Mary got Jesus to do what He seemed reluctant to do at that time.

I won't quibble about the exegesis, you made your point well. (But it may be Jesus is only objecting to Mary's assuming He didn't notice...because this miracle is listed as the beginning of His signs...so perhaps His time had come, just not precisely when Mary asked.)

So Congratulations, you had me thinking....you proved that Mary's intercession during Christ's earthly ministry, could move Him to act.

BUT that doesn't prove this allows you to make requests to Mary and she then gets Jesus to do them:

While I think it very likely Jesus would respond to a request by His mother in heaven, I don't believe Mary can hear your requests.


In other words, the idea we can speak to the departed, including Mary, isn't taught in the New Testament.



Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 27, 2010, 02:45:22 AM
Quote
that's an act of fellowship, of loving concern for one another, community in the presence of God,

And our asking intercessions from the Blessed Theotokos as well as the saints is an act of fellowship and a sign that community in the presence of God does not end just because the earthly life has ended.  In fact, we ask the intercessions of saints and the Theotokos because they are literally the "community in the presence of God".


Quote
Your analogy is like biting into apples and claiming  it tastes the same as an orange, that is unsound.

No, my analogy is like biting into a Red Delicious and saying that it tastes very similar to the Gold Delicious.  Prayer is prayer, the only difference between our prayers and the prayers of the saints is that the earthly veil has been removed from the latter, they ring the throne of God.

Quote
It is evident from all the doctrine regarding Mary that she is no longer human, therefore prayer for her intercession is qualitatively different than asking for the intercession of a mere human.

Lord, save me from being a "mere" human!  But if you're saying that our doctrine regarding the Blessed Virgin Mary means that in any way, shape, or form we denigrate her humanity then you know absolutely nothing of our prayers for intercession.  However, to say that the Mother of our Lord was a "mere" human is to denigrate absolutely everything Christianity means, that we are united to the Body of Christ through the Church.  You who claim to admire St Athanasius ponder this statement: "The Divine became man so that Man may become divine".

Quote
Asking her for anything is NOT like asking your friend or pastor, not even close.

Only insofar as none of my friends nor my priest could claim the greatest miracle of the Incarnation happened within them, that the Infinite Word, God who cannot be contained, was for nine months contained. 

Quote
And its fundamentally an insult one must "twist God's arm" by having Jesus' Mother intercede...to move a heartless or unconcerned God, to action. As though God didn't care, wasn't watching, or was distracted and needed Mary's intervention to get His attention.

Again, the above statement shows you know nothing of our intercessory prayers.  We don't ask the Theotokos for intercession because God is heartless or unconcerned.  We ask for intercession from the Mother of the Man-befriending God, the Mother of Deliverance, to the Mother of the Son Who has willed to grant mercy to us.

In other words, we ask intercessions of the Blessed Virgin precisely because God loves us and is concerned for us. 

Again, it doesn't stop at the Theotokos, we ask intercession from all our saints, because they were faithful to the end, while we are still running the race.

As I noted to Theistgal, the idea we can speak to the departed, including Mary, isn't taught in the New Testament

Unless you can prove we can, the question is moot.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Melodist on August 27, 2010, 03:04:54 AM
I don't believe Mary can hear your requests.
[/color]

Heb 12:1-2
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Rev 5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

The "witnesses" talked about in Hebrews 12 are the OT saints mentioned in chapter 11. Those in heaven are somehow aware of what happens doen here. And Revelation gives us an image those in heaven engaged in worship offering the prayers of the faithful to God. And as Hebrews says to look to Christ as the "author and finisher of our faith", it must be remembered that it is by His power and by following Him that all things are accomplished, just like it was ultimately Him who changed the water into wine after the intercession of His mother and the obedience of the servants.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: FormerReformer on August 27, 2010, 09:52:45 AM

As I noted to Theistgal, the idea we can speak to the departed, including Mary, isn't taught in the New Testament

Unless you can prove we can, the question is moot.


Melodist, in the post above, replies to this more than sufficiently.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: theistgal on August 27, 2010, 10:42:45 AM
Excellent argument, true enough, Mary got Jesus to do what He seemed reluctant to do at that time.

I won't quibble about the exegesis, you made your point well. (But it may be Jesus is only objecting to Mary's assuming He didn't notice...because this miracle is listed as the beginning of His signs...so perhaps His time had come, just not precisely when Mary asked.)

So Congratulations, you had me thinking....you proved that Mary's intercession during Christ's earthly ministry, could move Him to act.

BUT that doesn't prove this allows you to make requests to Mary and she then gets Jesus to do them:

While I think it very likely Jesus would respond to a request by His mother in heaven, I don't believe Mary can hear your requests.


In other words, the idea we can speak to the departed, including Mary, isn't taught in the New Testament.


Well, I got you to think about it!  My work here is done!   ;D

Seriously, just a couple of more points to ponder:

1.  Remember where St. Paul said (Hebrews 12:1) that we're surrounded by a cloud of witnesses, cheering us on as we run the race?  Don't you think those witnesses can hear us when we stop and shout back to them?  Perhaps Mary is just the cheerleader closest to the sidelines! ;D

2.  Even if Mary can't hear our prayers, God can hear them, right?  Perhaps if they're being made from someone with a truly sincere wish to love and honor Him, He will answer the prayers directed to her.  Are you a C.S. Lewis fan?  And if so, have you ever read "The Last Battle"?  (I won't continue this point till I get your response.)
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: bogdan on August 27, 2010, 11:01:15 AM
Hey Alfred, remember the story of the Wedding at Cana, described in the 2nd chapter of the Gospel of John?

Remember when Mary interceded with Jesus on behalf of the bride and bridegroom, embarrassed because they'd run out of wine?

Jesus tells her, basically, that it's none of her business or His, and that His time has not yet come.

Now you or I might hear Him say that and say, "Oh, well, OK, then, Lord, I accept that and won't ask you any more.

Yet Mary just outright ignores him, tells the waiters to do whatever Jesus tells them to do -

AND HE DOES IT!!    :o

In other words, Mary "interceded" on behalf of the bride and bridegroom, and persuaded Jesus to change His mind and help them!!  8)

From Day One, particularly after reading this story, Christians have known that Mary is the one you want on your side when you're asking Her Son for help.

And there's your Scriptural precedent for the value of her intercession, right there.

After all, Jesus COULD have said, "Sorry, Mom, I know you're only trying to help, but the bridegroom needs to come and ask me DIRECTLY - I don't take indirect requests!"

Tell us - why DIDN'T He say something like that?  Surely He (being God) must have known that His followers would read about this incident and conclude it was OK to ask His mom for help.  If He didn't want that, why didn't He tell anyone?  ???

Excellent argument, true enough, Mary got Jesus to do what He seemed reluctant to do at that time.

I won't quibble about the exegesis, you made your point well. (But it may be Jesus is only objecting to Mary's assuming He didn't notice...because this miracle is listed as the beginning of His signs...so perhaps His time had come, just not precisely when Mary asked.)

So Congratulations, you had me thinking....you proved that Mary's intercession during Christ's earthly ministry, could move Him to act.

BUT that doesn't prove this allows you to make requests to Mary and she then gets Jesus to do them:

While I think it very likely Jesus would respond to a request by His mother in heaven, I don't believe Mary can hear your requests.


In other words, the idea we can speak to the departed, including Mary, isn't taught in the New Testament.


Not as such, but it is a well-established reality that the people in heaven are aware of what occurs on earth. Not the least of which "We are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses". What does a witness do? A witness sees and hears things. If the Theotokos is one of the witnesses, it stands to reason that she most certainly can hear us talking to her. The angels can hear our prayers, as the Bible has them carrying prayers around and looking after people. If the departed are in the same realm as the angels, then there is no logical reason to say they cannot hear us.

And once again, it gets back to theosis. The saints partake of God's divine energies. One of those energies is God's ability to hear prayers all around the world at the same time. The saints, by virtue of their sanctity, also have that ability to an extent, depending on how sanctified they are. (Though I think patristic sources I have read make it fairly clear that the saints are not omnipresent; they can only be in one point in space at a time, whatever "space" means to a departed soul.)
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: recent convert on August 27, 2010, 01:42:26 PM
Re intercession between us & the hereafter: Ruth 2:20, "....blessed be he of the LORD,who hath not left off his kindness to the living and to the dead..." So it should be permissable for intercessory prayer between both states. " Oh Lord Almighty, thou God of Israel, hear now the prayers of the dead Israelites, & of their children..." (Baruch 3:4 not in Alf's Bible of course). Psalm 99:6, "Moses & Aaron among his priests, and Samuel among them that call upon His name.." (they were all departed when David wrote this but they are not praying?). "God is not the God of the dead , but of the living." (the Lord Jesus Christ per Matthew 22:32). So, the departed are not living (like the 7th day adventists beleive?) & no intercessory prayer between us & the Theotokos & all the saints? REally???
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 27, 2010, 06:13:51 PM
I don't believe Mary can hear your requests.
[/color]

Heb 12:1-2
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Rev 5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

The "witnesses" talked about in Hebrews 12 are the OT saints mentioned in chapter 11. Those in heaven are somehow aware of what happens doen here. And Revelation gives us an image those in heaven engaged in worship offering the prayers of the faithful to God. And as Hebrews says to look to Christ as the "author and finisher of our faith", it must be remembered that it is by His power and by following Him that all things are accomplished, just like it was ultimately Him who changed the water into wine after the intercession of His mother and the obedience of the servants.


The metaphor of a cloud of witnesses doesn't prove your point because MARTUS is being used in its usual connotation of witness, as one who testifies in a court of law. These witness to the correct way to live:

Hebrews 12:1 clearly belongs to the chapter before, which details what these witnesses did in this life:

39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,
 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.
12:1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
 (Heb 11:39-2 NKJ)

While this cloud of witnesses are pictured as surrounding us as in a stadium, the point isn't about them watching us, but us seeing them, a crowd of witnesses testifying how to be faithful to God, who should inspire us to "lay aside every weight and sin."

Hence this is not saying they actually witness what we are doing, their witness is like testimony  in court detailing how to lay aside every weight and sin and focus on God, the author and finisher of our faith, and as they surround us, we see them as if we are in a stadium competition.


Rev 8:5 doesn't picture individuals talking to Mary or the saints.

Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 27, 2010, 06:41:12 PM
Excellent argument, true enough, Mary got Jesus to do what He seemed reluctant to do at that time.

I won't quibble about the exegesis, you made your point well. (But it may be Jesus is only objecting to Mary's assuming He didn't notice...because this miracle is listed as the beginning of His signs...so perhaps His time had come, just not precisely when Mary asked.)

So Congratulations, you had me thinking....you proved that Mary's intercession during Christ's earthly ministry, could move Him to act.

BUT that doesn't prove this allows you to make requests to Mary and she then gets Jesus to do them:

While I think it very likely Jesus would respond to a request by His mother in heaven, I don't believe Mary can hear your requests.


In other words, the idea we can speak to the departed, including Mary, isn't taught in the New Testament.


Well, I got you to think about it!  My work here is done!   ;D

Seriously, just a couple of more points to ponder:

1.  Remember where St. Paul said (Hebrews 12:1) that we're surrounded by a cloud of witnesses, cheering us on as we run the race?  Don't you think those witnesses can hear us when we stop and shout back to them?  Perhaps Mary is just the cheerleader closest to the sidelines! ;D

2.  Even if Mary can't hear our prayers, God can hear them, right?  Perhaps if they're being made from someone with a truly sincere wish to love and honor Him, He will answer the prayers directed to her.  Are you a C.S. Lewis fan?  And if so, have you ever read "The Last Battle"?  (I won't continue this point till I get your response.)


Thanks. I never looked at that text from that perspective, I enjoy seeing things from different angles.

I concede Mary was able to get Christ to act...how reluctant He actually was uncertain, Mary didn't hesitate to conclude He would act.


Don't know anything about CS Lewis except I like this quote of his:


Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.- C. S. Lewis, God in the Dock

Gratuitous political commentary removed from post.




As for Hebrews, that doesn't prove communication with the departed because the point made about their surrounding us is they inspire us to lay aside things that hinder our serving Christ. In other words, we see them, not they see us.


So MARTUS is being used in its usual connotation of witness, as one who testifies in a court of law. These witness to the correct way to live.



39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,
 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.
12:1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith
, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
 (Heb 11:39-2 NKJ)

AND then, as a last witness, is Jesus Himself whose impeccable service to God is also meant to inspire us.

I suspect you are aware of this interpretation, because you list another argument:

2.  Even if Mary can't hear our prayers, God can hear them, right?  Perhaps if they're being made from someone with a truly sincere wish to love and honor Him, He will answer the prayers directed to her.

Can't base doctrine on a "perhaps." You have to show actual prayers being made to departed saints in scripture, or apostolic teaching they can hear our prayers.

Look what Paul says here to Timothy:

15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
 16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain;
 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me.
 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day-- and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.
 (2Ti 1:15-18 NKJ)

19 Greet Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus. (2Ti 4:19 NKJ)

So its likely this Onespihorus was departed, Paul expressed hope his household be shown mercy because of what he did. So perhaps some of them were unbelievers, regardless...the point is, Paul didn't include him in the conversation.

If Saint Onesiphorus could hear prayer, it would be rude to talk about him and his household as though he could not hear.
[/b]



Alfred, we have a separate board on the Private Forum for discussing politics; if you don't yet have access to this Private Forum but would like to post there, please send Fr. Chris (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=60) a private message requesting that he grant you permission to do this.  Seeing that we have a place reserved for political commentary, please do not post it here on the Public Forum.  Thank you.

-PeterTheAleut
Moderator
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 27, 2010, 07:19:02 PM
Hey Alfred, remember the story of the Wedding at Cana, described in the 2nd chapter of the Gospel of John?

Remember when Mary interceded with Jesus on behalf of the bride and bridegroom, embarrassed because they'd run out of wine?

Jesus tells her, basically, that it's none of her business or His, and that His time has not yet come.

Now you or I might hear Him say that and say, "Oh, well, OK, then, Lord, I accept that and won't ask you any more.

Yet Mary just outright ignores him, tells the waiters to do whatever Jesus tells them to do -

AND HE DOES IT!!    :o

In other words, Mary "interceded" on behalf of the bride and bridegroom, and persuaded Jesus to change His mind and help them!!  8)

From Day One, particularly after reading this story, Christians have known that Mary is the one you want on your side when you're asking Her Son for help.

And there's your Scriptural precedent for the value of her intercession, right there.

After all, Jesus COULD have said, "Sorry, Mom, I know you're only trying to help, but the bridegroom needs to come and ask me DIRECTLY - I don't take indirect requests!"

Tell us - why DIDN'T He say something like that?  Surely He (being God) must have known that His followers would read about this incident and conclude it was OK to ask His mom for help.  If He didn't want that, why didn't He tell anyone?  ???

Excellent argument, true enough, Mary got Jesus to do what He seemed reluctant to do at that time.

I won't quibble about the exegesis, you made your point well. (But it may be Jesus is only objecting to Mary's assuming He didn't notice...because this miracle is listed as the beginning of His signs...so perhaps His time had come, just not precisely when Mary asked.)

So Congratulations, you had me thinking....you proved that Mary's intercession during Christ's earthly ministry, could move Him to act.

BUT that doesn't prove this allows you to make requests to Mary and she then gets Jesus to do them:

While I think it very likely Jesus would respond to a request by His mother in heaven, I don't believe Mary can hear your requests.


In other words, the idea we can speak to the departed, including Mary, isn't taught in the New Testament.


Not as such, but it is a well-established reality that the people in heaven are aware of what occurs on earth. Not the least of which "We are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses". What does a witness do? A witness sees and hears things. If the Theotokos is one of the witnesses, it stands to reason that she most certainly can hear us talking to her. The angels can hear our prayers, as the Bible has them carrying prayers around and looking after people. If the departed are in the same realm as the angels, then there is no logical reason to say they cannot hear us.

And once again, it gets back to theosis. The saints partake of God's divine energies. One of those energies is God's ability to hear prayers all around the world at the same time. The saints, by virtue of their sanctity, also have that ability to an extent, depending on how sanctified they are. (Though I think patristic sources I have read make it fairly clear that the saints are not omnipresent; they can only be in one point in space at a time, whatever "space" means to a departed soul.)

Hebrew 12:1 is following the usual sense of MARTUS, those surrounding us are examples of faithful living, they witness as in a courtroom by their acts of faithfulness, and seeing them inspires us.

See my two posts immediately above this one for the details.

As for THEOSIS, if that enabled saints to hear other saints not actually present, then you would find examples of that in scripture. Surely you believe there are some on earth today who partake of divine nature. Why do these folks have telephones to talk to each other, if divine energies make them part of a communion of the saints network?

Therefore I don't believe THEOSIS allows the departed in heaven, hear us. They are departed, they have "left the building," and no longer hear us:



KJV Isaiah 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.  


Saints Abraham and Israel are ignorant of individuals on earth, so God's people pray to God, not them. Unlike them, He hears us.  


Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: PeterTheAleut on August 27, 2010, 07:41:44 PM
Alfred, please see Reply #106 (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29483.msg467155.html#msg467155) above.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 27, 2010, 09:15:25 PM
Alfred, please see Reply #106 (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29483.msg467155.html#msg467155) above.

Didn't notice the replies are numbered, thanks.

The political comment was slip...politics isn't soldier like.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: FormerReformer on August 27, 2010, 09:58:52 PM
I don't believe Mary can hear your requests.
[/color]

Heb 12:1-2
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Rev 5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

The "witnesses" talked about in Hebrews 12 are the OT saints mentioned in chapter 11. Those in heaven are somehow aware of what happens doen here. And Revelation gives us an image those in heaven engaged in worship offering the prayers of the faithful to God. And as Hebrews says to look to Christ as the "author and finisher of our faith", it must be remembered that it is by His power and by following Him that all things are accomplished, just like it was ultimately Him who changed the water into wine after the intercession of His mother and the obedience of the servants.


The metaphor of a cloud of witnesses doesn't prove your point because MARTUS is being used in its usual connotation of witness, as one who testifies in a court of law. These witness to the correct way to live:

Hebrews 12:1 clearly belongs to the chapter before, which details what these witnesses did in this life:

39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,
 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.
12:1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
 (Heb 11:39-2 NKJ)

While this cloud of witnesses are pictured as surrounding us as in a stadium, the point isn't about them watching us, but us seeing them, a crowd of witnesses testifying how to be faithful to God, who should inspire us to "lay aside every weight and sin."

Hence this is not saying they actually witness what we are doing, their witness is like testimony  in court detailing how to lay aside every weight and sin and focus on God, the author and finisher of our faith, and as they surround us, we see them as if we are in a stadium competition.


Rev 8:5 doesn't picture individuals talking to Mary or the saints.



Re: Revelations 8:5-  What it does picture is the elders (the Patriarchs and Apostles) bearing prayers (not their own) to God. 


Therefore I don't believe THEOSIS allows the departed in heaven, hear us. They are departed, they have "left the building," and no longer hear us:

KJV Isaiah 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.  

Saints Abraham and Israel are ignorant of individuals on earth, so God's people pray to God, not them. Unlike them, He hears us.  




Hmmmmm, leaving aside the fact the statement in Isaiah never says that Abraham IS ignorant nor that Israel acknowledges not (it's like saying "Though my father love me not, God is there", my father loves me, but even if he didn't God does), there was a major change in the lands of the dead (Hebrew Sheol, Greek Hades) between the time of Isaiah and the time of the Church.  One might call it an upheaval.  Can you guess what it was?
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: bogdan on August 27, 2010, 10:02:13 PM
Hebrew 12:1 is following the usual sense of MARTUS, those surrounding us are examples of faithful living, they witness as in a courtroom by their acts of faithfulness, and seeing them inspires us.

By your interpretation it follows the usual sense, as you describe. But you are presupposing that it means that. There is absolutely no indication in the text that it must be taken as such.

(Aside: I personally have never heard of such an interpretation of that verse, neither when I was Protestant nor since becoming Orthodox. I thought it was standard belief among Protestants that the heavenlies are aware of us, except that there is perhaps a one-way mirror between us and them. Huh.)


As for THEOSIS, if that enabled saints to hear other saints not actually present, then you would find examples of that in scripture. Surely you believe there are some on earth today who partake of divine nature. Why do these folks have telephones to talk to each other, if divine energies make them part of a communion of the saints network?

Have you read the New Testament? The Apostles healed people and even raised the dead. People didn't have to pray to them; they were there in the flesh.

(Technically, the people asking the then-living Apostles to help them was an act of prayer. A prayer is simply a request, as in the phrase, "I pray you tell." Also, notice that when asked, the Apostles simply healed people. They didn't say, "No! Don't ask me, idolator! Go pray to God and he'll heal your child.")

But you betray your bias. You assume that every important (or not so important) event that ever happened in the lives of the Apostles is recorded in the New Testament; or at least, you believe that if something was important, it would be recorded. You cannot argue from silence. Such is a fallacy of logic.

As we know, written documents were held with suspicion in antiquity. It's not hard to write a false account and hand out 100 copies of it. Look at all the false epistles and gospels the Gnostics used. What *is* hard is to simultaneously get the entire Church to believe a false teaching. That is why the Apostles held Holy Tradition in such high regard. It's far more reliable than scribbles on paper.

Back to the issue at hand, I absolutely believe there are such people alive today. They don't often appear in the West because of our insatiable doubt (cf Matt. 13:58), but there are definitely people alive today who partake of the divine nature just like the Apostles did.

You probably won't believe this in your own enlightened doubt, but there are modern examples of living saints who healed people without being told the people needed help, and/or over great distances, because they were clairvoyant. St John of San Francisco did this on a number of occasions, among a host of similar miracles, medically verifiable and all. I can actually also think of a couple accounts of "prayers" he received via letter and telephone, and the requests were met instantly.

Therefore I don't believe THEOSIS allows the departed in heaven, hear us. They are departed, they have "left the building," and no longer hear us:

KJV Isaiah 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting. 

Saints Abraham and Israel are ignorant of individuals on earth, so God's people pray to God, not them. Unlike them, He hears us.

The pre-Resurrection Jewish understanding of death is vastly different from the Christian one. After the Resurrection, as the Theotokion at the end of Sunday Matins says,

Most blessed art thou, O Virgin Theotokos, for through Him that was incarnate of thee is Hades despoiled, Adam is recalled from the dead, the curse is made void, Eve is set free, Death is slain, and we are endowed with Life. Wherefore, in hymns of praise, we cry aloud: Blessed art Thou, O Christ our God, Who is thus well pleased, glory to Thee.

Those who were dead (i.e., Abraham and Israel) are no longer captive. Whatever captivity Death held them in was destroyed by Christ. The triumph of life. We are not destined for a dismal, semi-conscious eternity like Abraham may have been. The understanding of the game has changed radically since Isaiah's day.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Melodist on August 28, 2010, 12:09:25 AM
Rev 8:5 doesn't picture individuals talking to Mary or the saints.

It does picture the saints in heaven, having our prayers (however it is they received them), and offering them to God. Scripture does have a few lines in one of the Psalms directed to the angels, the hosts, and "all his works in all places of his dominion". Matt. 18:10 implies that at least the angels are 1) aware of what is happening on earth, and 2) in communication with God about what happens on earth while they are in heaven. Luke 15:7 implies that all of heaven is aware of the repentence of a sinner (something that happens down here).

Psalm 103:20-22
Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word. Bless ye the LORD, all ye his hosts; ye ministers of his, that do his pleasure. Bless the LORD, all his works in all places of his dominion: bless the LORD, O my soul.

Matt 18:10
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 15:7
I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 28, 2010, 06:41:11 AM
Therefore I don't believe THEOSIS allows the departed in heaven, hear us. They are departed, they have "left the building," and no longer hear us:

KJV Isaiah 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.  

Saints Abraham and Israel are ignorant of individuals on earth, so God's people pray to God, not them. Unlike them, He hears us.  

Hmmmmm, leaving aside the fact the statement in Isaiah never says that Abraham IS ignorant nor that Israel acknowledges not (it's like saying "Though my father love me not, God is there", my father loves me, but even if he didn't God does), there was a major change in the lands of the dead (Hebrew Sheol, Greek Hades) between the time of Isaiah and the time of the Church.  One might call it an upheaval.  Can you guess what it was?

It certainly DOES say Abraham and Israel ARE ignorant of the living:

KJV Isaiah 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.  


As for Revelation, where you folks see Mary and the saints hearing prayers and making intercession, is beyond me:

From verses 5:9-10 the prayers are from saints already in heaven, not saints from earth.

AND from vv 5:1--7 we see this event occurs AFTER Christ receives the scroll having seven seals, so its a an event in time, not describing a daily scene in heaven forever:

NKJ  Revelation 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals.
 2 Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?"
 3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it.
 4 So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it.
 5 But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals."
 6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
 7 Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.
 8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
 9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
 10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth."
 (Rev 5:1-10 NKJ)

Rev 8:1ff is same as above, after the seals are opened, THEN an angel, not a human, offers up the prayers of the saints already in heaven. AND no intercession on their behalf occurs at these occasions.

NKJ  Revelation 8:1 When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.
 2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.
 3 Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
 4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel's hand.
 5 Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.
 (Rev 8:1-5 NKJ)

NOTHING either context has Mary and saints receiving the prayers of believers on earth and making intercession for them.

You are biting into an apple, and declaring it proves what oranges taste like....no it does not. These events have nothing to say about prayers to Mary and the saints or their intercession on behalf of the living.

11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. (Rev 6:11 NKJ)

They are resting, not constantly disturbed by the incessant demands and whining of millions on earth.

I am convinced God alone can endure such communication, it would overwhelm any being of lesser fortitude and Love.

Anyone not God would find the incessant demands torture, a living hell. The opposite of rest from labor.



Mary is resting in heaven, not a slave to the incessant requests for favor from folks she never met.

As God loves Mary, that alone is enough proof He would never allow you folks disturb her well earned rest.

IN fact, persisting in such activity might "rub God" the wrong way.

I'll not be rebelling against God's granting her rest, with requests for favor, you can be sure of that.
[/i]

Being its Jesus' Mother, the possibility of disturbing her against His wishes should make one cower in fear.

11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men (2Co 5:11 NKJ)

Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 28, 2010, 06:51:55 AM
Rev 8:5 doesn't picture individuals talking to Mary or the saints.

It does picture the saints in heaven, having our prayers (however it is they received them), and offering them to God. Scripture does have a few lines in one of the Psalms directed to the angels, the hosts, and "all his works in all places of his dominion". Matt. 18:10 implies that at least the angels are 1) aware of what is happening on earth, and 2) in communication with God about what happens on earth while they are in heaven. Luke 15:7 implies that all of heaven is aware of the repentence of a sinner (something that happens down here).

Psalm 103:20-22
Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word. Bless ye the LORD, all ye his hosts; ye ministers of his, that do his pleasure. Bless the LORD, all his works in all places of his dominion: bless the LORD, O my soul.

Matt 18:10
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 15:7
I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.


These praying saints are already in heaven at the time the book of seals is given to the lamb, the prayers are not from saints on earth and no intercession is occurring in either context.

Psalm 103:20-22 does not say pray to Mary and she will intercede for you.

Matt 18:10 doesn't mention the living praying to children in heaven to obtain favor.

Luke 15:7 Says nothing about praying to the departed, its about sinners repenting, and the joy that brings in heaven.





Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 28, 2010, 07:55:59 AM
Hebrew 12:1 is following the usual sense of MARTUS, those surrounding us are examples of faithful living, they witness as in a courtroom by their acts of faithfulness, and seeing them inspires us.

By your interpretation it follows the usual sense, as you describe. But you are presupposing that it means that. There is absolutely no indication in the text that it must be taken as such.

(Aside: I personally have never heard of such an interpretation of that verse, neither when I was Protestant nor since becoming Orthodox. I thought it was standard belief among Protestants that the heavenlies are aware of us, except that there is perhaps a one-way mirror between us and them. Huh.)


As for THEOSIS, if that enabled saints to hear other saints not actually present, then you would find examples of that in scripture. Surely you believe there are some on earth today who partake of divine nature. Why do these folks have telephones to talk to each other, if divine energies make them part of a communion of the saints network?

Have you read the New Testament? The Apostles healed people and even raised the dead. People didn't have to pray to them; they were there in the flesh.

(Technically, the people asking the then-living Apostles to help them was an act of prayer. A prayer is simply a request, as in the phrase, "I pray you tell." Also, notice that when asked, the Apostles simply healed people. They didn't say, "No! Don't ask me, idolator! Go pray to God and he'll heal your child.")

But you betray your bias. You assume that every important (or not so important) event that ever happened in the lives of the Apostles is recorded in the New Testament; or at least, you believe that if something was important, it would be recorded. You cannot argue from silence. Such is a fallacy of logic.

As we know, written documents were held with suspicion in antiquity. It's not hard to write a false account and hand out 100 copies of it. Look at all the false epistles and gospels the Gnostics used. What *is* hard is to simultaneously get the entire Church to believe a false teaching. That is why the Apostles held Holy Tradition in such high regard. It's far more reliable than scribbles on paper.

Back to the issue at hand, I absolutely believe there are such people alive today. They don't often appear in the West because of our insatiable doubt (cf Matt. 13:58), but there are definitely people alive today who partake of the divine nature just like the Apostles did.

You probably won't believe this in your own enlightened doubt, but there are modern examples of living saints who healed people without being told the people needed help, and/or over great distances, because they were clairvoyant. St John of San Francisco did this on a number of occasions, among a host of similar miracles, medically verifiable and all. I can actually also think of a couple accounts of "prayers" he received via letter and telephone, and the requests were met instantly.

Therefore I don't believe THEOSIS allows the departed in heaven, hear us. They are departed, they have "left the building," and no longer hear us:

KJV Isaiah 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.  

Saints Abraham and Israel are ignorant of individuals on earth, so God's people pray to God, not them. Unlike them, He hears us.

The pre-Resurrection Jewish understanding of death is vastly different from the Christian one. After the Resurrection, as the Theotokion at the end of Sunday Matins says,

Most blessed art thou, O Virgin Theotokos, for through Him that was incarnate of thee is Hades despoiled, Adam is recalled from the dead, the curse is made void, Eve is set free, Death is slain, and we are endowed with Life. Wherefore, in hymns of praise, we cry aloud: Blessed art Thou, O Christ our God, Who is thus well pleased, glory to Thee.

Those who were dead (i.e., Abraham and Israel) are no longer captive. Whatever captivity Death held them in was destroyed by Christ. The triumph of life. We are not destined for a dismal, semi-conscious eternity like Abraham may have been. The understanding of the game has changed radically since Isaiah's day.

Heb 12:1 is following the usual sense of MARTUS, this is not "presupposition," its exegesis, the context doesn't describe what they do as they witness us, it refers to them as witnesses testifying about faithful living, and then exhorts us to imitate their example:

NKJ  Hebrews 12:1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
 3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. (Heb 12:1-3 NKJ)

The writer is not discussing these witnesses and how they watch and listen to us, he cites them and exhorts us to follow their example, lay aside every weight and run the race with endurance.

Even Christ's example is cited to inspire us, not to say He is watching us like a spectator.


IN context MARTUS is being used as it usually is in Paul's writings, about one who is a witness in court testifying what the facts are:

NKJ Romans 1:9  For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of His Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers,
NKJ 2 Corinthians 1:23  Moreover I call God as witness against my soul, that to spare you I came no more to Corinth.
NKJ 2 Corinthians 13:1  This will be the third time I am coming to you. "By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established."
NKJ Philippians 1:8  For God is my witness, how greatly I long for you all with the affection of Jesus Christ.
NKJ 1 Thessalonians 2:5  For neither at any time did we use flattering words, as you know, nor a cloak for covetousness-- God is witness.
NKJ 1 Thessalonians 2:10  You are witnesses, and God also, how devoutly and justly and blamelessly we behaved ourselves among you who believe;
NKJ 1 Timothy 5:19  Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses.
NKJ 1 Timothy 6:12  Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
NKJ 2 Timothy 2:2  And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
NKJ Hebrews 10:28  Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

Only in 1 Th 2:10, 1 Ti 6:12 2 Ti 2:2 do we have the idea of WATCHERS, and there also, its so they can testify as to the facts.

Exegesis of the Context, not presupposition, determines how MARTUS is meant in Hebrew 12:1

NKJ Hebrews 12:1  Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,


What is written about these witnesses, that they watch and observe all we do and then....

Or

Being we are surrounded by so many witnesses to faithful living, " let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,"


Clearly the latter.


Evidently you didn't consult the doctors of the faith when you were a Protestant, the idea is found in many commentaries, Abbot New Testament Commentary; Willaim Burkitt Expository Notes; John Calvin's Verse Commentary to name a few.

There are lots more.

When I hear someone say "I used to be a Reformer....I used to be a Protestant like you" I know they were never like me. I sold all I owned to follow Christ. Any riches I have acquired since are spent serving Him, and learning His truth. That's where my NET money goes,

I have a library that rivals the biggest mega churches. When I want answers, I find them.

Technology makes this easy...Logos Bible Software 4 (although vers 3 is excellent also), Bibleworks 8.0, make searching through reams of commentary and scripture, a snap. I rarely consult the printed text, my electronic library is so vast.


Even the starter editions brings your Bible research into the 21st century. Another program worthy of mention is "Swordsearcher." AND there is a free Bible research program called "e-Sword" that is excellent. Be sure to download all the free modules:

http://www.e-sword.net/

This program even has the Greek Septuagint numerically coded to Strong's Greek Concordance.

I will continue in another post, your comments on THEOSIS.





Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: bogdan on August 28, 2010, 08:22:09 AM
Heb 12:1 is following the usual sense of MARTUS, this is not "presupposition," its exegesis, the context doesn't describe what they do as they witness us, it refers to them as witnesses testifying about faithful living, and then exhorts us to imitate their example:

NKJ  Hebrews 12:1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
 3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. (Heb 12:1-3 NKJ)

The writer is not discussing these witnesses and how they watch and listen to us, he cites them and exhorts us to follow their example, lay aside every weight and run the race with endurance.

Even Christ's example is cited to inspire us, not to say He is watching us like a spectator.


IN context MARTUS is being used as it usually is in Paul's writings, about one who is a witness in court testifying what the facts are:

NKJ Romans 1:9  For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of His Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers,
NKJ 2 Corinthians 1:23  Moreover I call God as witness against my soul, that to spare you I came no more to Corinth.
NKJ 2 Corinthians 13:1  This will be the third time I am coming to you. "By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established."
NKJ Philippians 1:8  For God is my witness, how greatly I long for you all with the affection of Jesus Christ.
NKJ 1 Thessalonians 2:5  For neither at any time did we use flattering words, as you know, nor a cloak for covetousness-- God is witness.
NKJ 1 Thessalonians 2:10  You are witnesses, and God also, how devoutly and justly and blamelessly we behaved ourselves among you who believe;
NKJ 1 Timothy 5:19  Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses.
NKJ 1 Timothy 6:12  Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
NKJ 2 Timothy 2:2  And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
NKJ Hebrews 10:28  Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

Only in 1 Th 2:10, 1 Ti 6:12 2 Ti 2:2 do we have the idea of WATCHERS, and there also, its so they can testify as to the facts.

Exegesis of the Context, not presupposition, determines how MARTUS is meant in Hebrew 12:1

NKJ Hebrews 12:1  Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,


What is written about these witnesses, that they watch and observe all we do and then....

Or

Being we are surrounded by so many witnesses to faithful living, " let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,"


Clearly the latter.

So then, why does the ancient Church—people who spoke ancient Koine Greek as their first language and actually experienced the culture and living usage of the word MARTUS—interpret it differently from you? Did your Johnny-come-lately Protestant "church fathers" somehow get enlightened about something that all of Christendom missed out on for 1500 years? We're approaching Joseph Smith territory here.


Evidently you didn't consult the doctors of the faith when you were a Protestant, the idea is found in many commentaries, Abbot New Testament Commentary; Willaim Burkitt Expository Notes; John Calvin's Verse Commentary to name a few.

There are lots more.

Irrelevant. Their knowledge of the Apostolic age is theoretical at best. Their knowledge of Koine Greek is scholarly. Whereas we have teachings of people who knew the Apostles, and their disciples, and their students, who universally believed the saints are surrounding us and observing us.

You take reconstructionism over the real thing. Which is fine; that's your right. But you must know how ridiculous it is—in any given field, including exegesis—to say "I'm going to throw out the eyewitnesses as spurious and instead take the word of reconstructionists who lived 1000 years later and had absolutely no experiential knowledge of the intricacies of language and its usage. Because that's all Calvin et al. have to work with—a reconstructed language.

But it's not just them. I know one staunch Calvinist preacher, who has literally traveled the world to study Christianity, and who balks at Orthodoxy, and he believes the people in heaven are constantly observing us on earth. Clearly it's not so cut-and-dried even for Protestants.

Why do you hold your Protestant "doctors of the faith" above the Church Fathers who were universally recognized by all Christians for centuries? I'm thankful for your honesty that you also have teachers you follow. Many in the Sola Scriptura cloud would not be so honest.

When I hear someone say "I used to be a Reformer....I used to be a Protestant like you" I know they were never like me. I sold all I owned to follow Christ. Any riches I have acquired since are spent serving Him, and learning His truth.

You truly are a living saint. I'll say a prayer to you this evening.

That's where my NET money goes, I have a library that rivals the biggest mega churches. When I want answers, I find them.

That's good. I also have books and websites I consult when I want answers, so we have that in common.

Technology makes this easy...Logos Bible Software 4 (although vers 3 is excellent also), Bibleworks 8.0, make searching through reams of commentary and scripture, a snap. I rarely consult the printed text, my electronic library is so vast.

Even the starter editions brings your Bible research into the 21st century. Another program worthy of mention is "Swordsearcher." AND there is a free Bible research program called "e-Sword" that is excellent. Be sure to download all the free modules:

http://www.e-sword.net/
I have e-Sword, it's good stuff.



[/quote]
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: recent convert on August 28, 2010, 09:06:37 AM
Again the preaching in the tradition of man is given to us divorced from holy tradition by inflating an aspect of heavenly worship within holy tradition counter to its meaning reduced to legalistic, justification of human reasoning. Case in point, "the cloud of witnesses" in Hebrews 12:1 are reduced by individualist rationalization to an obituary listing by opinion that replaces their role within the scripture since it is their witness that assists us to "lay aside every weight and sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us.looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith..." (Hebrews 12:1-2 in part).

The tradition of man being preached to us keeps boasting in the scripture that we do not follow scripture which is false and refernces to Calvin for wisdom are poison to us. To expand on the cloud of witness idea, if I was an Ethiopian Orthodox, this concept would be easily Biblically illustrated to me on the basis that the book of Enoch which is in the canon of their church states, "...I saw the habitations and couches of the saints. There my eyes beheld their habitations with the angels, and their couches with the holy ones. They were entreating, supplicating, & praying for the sons of men.." (enoch 39:4). This is the understanding we see within the letter of Hebrews and the roll call given by St. Paul (which includes Enoch) in Hebrews 11 of the faithful witnesses in which the point culminates in Hebrews 12:1. The concept of the many habitations seems most similar to what the Lord says, "In My Father's house are many mansions..."in John 14:2.

Why Enoch is not universal canon, I do not know (it was lost for over 1000 years in many areas) but it was written before & attests to the revelation of the Son of God in many areas & clearly evident within holy tradtion & such attestation expressed in liturgical worship centuries prior to the codification of canon beats guess work of the apostolic faith expressed by a tradtion of man.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Melodist on August 28, 2010, 09:31:00 AM
These praying saints are already in heaven at the time the book of seals is given to the lamb, the prayers are not from saints on earth and no intercession is occurring in either context.

The word "saints" is typically used in the NT to refer to the saints here on earth. The saints in heaven are offering up the prayers of the saints on earth.

Quote
Psalm 103:20-22 does not say pray to Mary and she will intercede for you.

It might not be addressed to human saints in heaven, but it is addressed to the angels in heaven. There is a line addressed to someone in heaven, other than God.

Quote
Matt 18:10 doesn't mention the living praying to children in heaven to obtain favor.

It says that the angels in heaven are aware of what is happening on earth and communicate (pray) to God about it.

Quote
Luke 15:7 Says nothing about praying to the departed, its about sinners repenting, and the joy that brings in
heaven.

It says that heaven (human saints would be included, seeing there is no restriction to "who" in heaven is rejoicing) is aware of events that happen on earth (the repentence of a sinner).

Between all of these, it is established that those in heaven are aware of what goes on down here, we can address those in heaven, and they communicate with God and offer up prayers.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: theistgal on August 28, 2010, 10:06:40 AM
Alfred, I only have a few minutes, but what about when Moses & Elijah appeared with Christ at the Transfiguration & talked with Him about the things that were going on?  Obviously (a) they were dead AND (b) they knew what was happening here on earth.  So death is not a barrier -even less so now since Christ destroyed the power of Hades!

Gotta go - as you may have noticed it's MUCH cooler today so we're off for a bike ride! :)
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 28, 2010, 10:39:51 AM
Alfred, I only have a few minutes, but what about when Moses & Elijah appeared with Christ at the Transfiguration & talked with Him about the things that were going on?  Obviously (a) they were dead AND (b) they knew what was happening here on earth.  So death is not a barrier -even less so now since Christ destroyed the power of Hades!

Gotta go - as you may have noticed it's MUCH cooler today so we're off for a bike ride! :)

Ride to live, live to ride, but I do it on my Yamaha Stratoliner...if you see an ugly guy on a nice bike, it might be me!

The transfiguration was the TELEIOS(complete) breaking into our MEROS(partial) 1 Cor 13:10, the "kingdom of God present with power." So Moses and Elijah weren't in heaven when they talked with Christ, there were here albeit in realm having the dimension of God's revelation:

NKJ  Mark 9:1 And He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power."
 2 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John, and led them up on a high mountain apart by themselves; and He was transfigured before them.
 3 His clothes became shining, exceedingly white, like snow, such as no launderer on earth can whiten them.
 4 And Elijah appeared to them with Moses, and they were talking with Jesus.
 5 Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, "Rabbi, it is good for us to be here; and let us make three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah "--
 6 because he did not know what to say, for they were greatly afraid.
 7 And a cloud came and overshadowed them; and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son. Hear Him!"
 8 Suddenly, when they had looked around, they saw no one anymore, but only Jesus with themselves.
 (Mar 9:1-8 NKJ)

Hence this event is a proof text AGAINST speaking to the dead as they  had to come to Christ on earth to hear what He had to say.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 28, 2010, 10:46:50 AM
As for THEOSIS, if that enabled saints to hear other saints not actually present, then you would find examples of that in scripture. Surely you believe there are some on earth today who partake of divine nature. Why do these folks have telephones to talk to each other, if divine energies make them part of a communion of the saints network?

Have you read the New Testament? The Apostles healed people and even raised the dead. People didn't have to pray to them; they were there in the flesh.

(Technically, the people asking the then-living Apostles to help them was an act of prayer. A prayer is simply a request, as in the phrase, "I pray you tell." Also, notice that when asked, the Apostles simply healed people. They didn't say, "No! Don't ask me, idolator! Go pray to God and he'll heal your child.")

You evaded my question...here it is again:

As for THEOSIS, if that enabled saints to hear other saints not actually present, then you would find examples of that in scripture. Surely you believe there are some on earth today who partake of divine nature. Why do these folks have telephones to talk to each other, if divine energies make them part of a communion of the saints network?

I see the apostles doing lots of miracles, communicating with folks not present isn't one of them.

Answer the question please.


Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 28, 2010, 10:53:52 AM
Again the preaching in the tradition of man is given to us divorced from holy tradition by inflating an aspect of heavenly worship within holy tradition counter to its meaning reduced to legalistic, justification of human reasoning. Case in point, "the cloud of witnesses" in Hebrews 12:1 are reduced by individualist rationalization to an obituary listing by opinion that replaces their role within the scripture since it is their witness that assists us to "lay aside every weight and sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us.looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith..." (Hebrews 12:1-2 in part).

The tradition of man being preached to us keeps boasting in the scripture that we do not follow scripture which is false and refernces to Calvin for wisdom are poison to us. To expand on the cloud of witness idea, if I was an Ethiopian Orthodox, this concept would be easily Biblically illustrated to me on the basis that the book of Enoch which is in the canon of their church states, "...I saw the habitations and couches of the saints. There my eyes beheld their habitations with the angels, and their couches with the holy ones. They were entreating, supplicating, & praying for the sons of men.." (enoch 39:4). This is the understanding we see within the letter of Hebrews and the roll call given by St. Paul (which includes Enoch) in Hebrews 11 of the faithful witnesses in which the point culminates in Hebrews 12:1. The concept of the many habitations seems most similar to what the Lord says, "In My Father's house are many mansions..."in John 14:2.

Why Enoch is not universal canon, I do not know (it was lost for over 1000 years in many areas) but it was written before & attests to the revelation of the Son of God in many areas & clearly evident within holy tradtion & such attestation expressed in liturgical worship centuries prior to the codification of canon beats guess work of the apostolic faith expressed by a tradtion of man.

A self contradiction, decrying the "tradition of man" you bind yourself to Orthodox tradition, which realized its defects and sought to stabilize itself in the "consensus of the fathers."

Sola scriptura is the antidote for relying upon "the tradition of man," for the Bible is written by God.


.


Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 28, 2010, 10:56:41 AM
So then, why does the ancient Church—people who spoke ancient Koine Greek as their first language and actually experienced the culture and living usage of the word MARTUS—interpret it differently from you? Did your Johnny-come-lately Protestant "church fathers" somehow get enlightened about something that all of Christendom missed out on for 1500 years? We're approaching Joseph Smith territory here.

They have other tradition apart from scripture they pay attention to.

If you follow the text, you must conclude it says nothing about the dead watching and hearing our prayers, and interceding for us.

YOU try to find those words in the context. I looked, they aren't there.


Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: rakovsky on August 28, 2010, 11:33:57 AM
Mr. Persson,

Do you happen to agree with the substance of the Nicene Creed? Yes, I think you said you do.

Was it not the "men" of the church who wrote it with consensus inspired by the Holy Spirit? Was not the Bible written by the "men" of the church inspired by the Holy Spirit? And were not the number of those books chosen by the men of the church with consensus inspired by the Holy Spirit?

Regards
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: PeterTheAleut on August 28, 2010, 12:38:30 PM
As for THEOSIS, if that enabled saints to hear other saints not actually present, then you would find examples of that in scripture. Surely you believe there are some on earth today who partake of divine nature. Why do these folks have telephones to talk to each other, if divine energies make them part of a communion of the saints network?

Have you read the New Testament? The Apostles healed people and even raised the dead. People didn't have to pray to them; they were there in the flesh.

(Technically, the people asking the then-living Apostles to help them was an act of prayer. A prayer is simply a request, as in the phrase, "I pray you tell." Also, notice that when asked, the Apostles simply healed people. They didn't say, "No! Don't ask me, idolator! Go pray to God and he'll heal your child.")

You evaded my question...here it is again:

As for THEOSIS, if that enabled saints to hear other saints not actually present, then you would find examples of that in scripture.
For someone who has recognized full well the fallacy of arguments from silence, you seem to rely upon these arguments from silence quite a bit in your posts. ::)  If arguments from silence don't work for others, what makes you so special that you think they'll work for you?

I will answer if you, who claim to know the fundaments of debates answer this:

is absence of evidence, evidence of absence?
Or in other words, in all unsolved murders, the absence of evidence of the identity of the murderer is evidence that this identity is actually absent (and therefore the murder was committed by a person withouth identity)?

No, an argument from silence is unsound, proves nothing. ...
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: FormerReformer on August 28, 2010, 02:34:43 PM


It certainly DOES say Abraham and Israel ARE ignorant of the living:

KJV Isaiah 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.  




Nope, not at all.  The statement here is the same as St Peter saying "Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended." (Matt 26:33)  It is a hypothetical statement.  In this case "Though" means "if" or "suppose".  The Hebrews were relatively agnostic about the afterlife, and made no definitive statements one way or the other.  They had no way of knowing if Abraham or Israel could know anything.

From the parable of the rich man and Lazarus it seems as if Abraham has greater knowledge than you assume from this one text in Isaiah, knowing the deeds of the rich man and Lazarus both.

Regardless, you still don't seem to see the fundamental difference between a hypothetical statement in Isaiah's time and a reality in ours.  The Living God descended into Sheol and set the captives free.  Those who were in the ignorance of death were sent the Divine Truth of Life (I Peter 3:18-20, 4:6)!
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: bogdan on August 28, 2010, 04:21:35 PM
As for THEOSIS, if that enabled saints to hear other saints not actually present, then you would find examples of that in scripture. Surely you believe there are some on earth today who partake of divine nature. Why do these folks have telephones to talk to each other, if divine energies make them part of a communion of the saints network?

Have you read the New Testament? The Apostles healed people and even raised the dead. People didn't have to pray to them; they were there in the flesh.

(Technically, the people asking the then-living Apostles to help them was an act of prayer. A prayer is simply a request, as in the phrase, "I pray you tell." Also, notice that when asked, the Apostles simply healed people. They didn't say, "No! Don't ask me, idolator! Go pray to God and he'll heal your child.")

You evaded my question...here it is again:

As for THEOSIS, if that enabled saints to hear other saints not actually present, then you would find examples of that in scripture. Surely you believe there are some on earth today who partake of divine nature. Why do these folks have telephones to talk to each other, if divine energies make them part of a communion of the saints network?

I see the apostles doing lots of miracles, communicating with folks not present isn't one of them.

Answer the question please.

I'll answer you, but first tell me this: where does the New Testament claim to be the sole, all-encompassing, and comprehensive source of history and doctrine from the Apostolic age, describing in indisputable detail every single important event or doctrinal detail? That is the crux of our problem. Until you can answer that, your arguments from silence are pointless, as you have not established that your position is anything more than a presupposition.

Because if the New Testament is not the sole, all-encompassing, comprehensive source for all things that you seem to imply that it is, the answer doesn't matter. If there is no record of that happening, we can't say if it did or not. We certainly cannot rule it out. If there is a record of it happening, you lose automatically.

In other words, first prove that the answer to the question is worth a hill of beans, and then I'll answer it. If you can't, then I won't.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 28, 2010, 10:57:03 PM
As for THEOSIS, if that enabled saints to hear other saints not actually present, then you would find examples of that in scripture. Surely you believe there are some on earth today who partake of divine nature. Why do these folks have telephones to talk to each other, if divine energies make them part of a communion of the saints network?

Have you read the New Testament? The Apostles healed people and even raised the dead. People didn't have to pray to them; they were there in the flesh.

(Technically, the people asking the then-living Apostles to help them was an act of prayer. A prayer is simply a request, as in the phrase, "I pray you tell." Also, notice that when asked, the Apostles simply healed people. They didn't say, "No! Don't ask me, idolator! Go pray to God and he'll heal your child.")

You evaded my question...here it is again:

As for THEOSIS, if that enabled saints to hear other saints not actually present, then you would find examples of that in scripture. Surely you believe there are some on earth today who partake of divine nature. Why do these folks have telephones to talk to each other, if divine energies make them part of a communion of the saints network?

I see the apostles doing lots of miracles, communicating with folks not present isn't one of them.

Answer the question please.

I'll answer you, but first tell me this: where does the New Testament claim to be the sole, all-encompassing, and comprehensive source of history and doctrine from the Apostolic age, describing in indisputable detail every single important event or doctrinal detail? That is the crux of our problem. Until you can answer that, your arguments from silence are pointless, as you have not established that your position is anything more than a presupposition.

Because if the New Testament is not the sole, all-encompassing, comprehensive source for all things that you seem to imply that it is, the answer doesn't matter. If there is no record of that happening, we can't say if it did or not. We certainly cannot rule it out. If there is a record of it happening, you lose automatically.

In other words, first prove that the answer to the question is worth a hill of beans, and then I'll answer it. If you can't, then I won't.

I never said it did, BUT it claims to have everything necessary for my being completely equipped:

 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 (2Ti 3:15-1 NKJ)

In context it may be Paul says this about the Old Testament only. Therefore some argue Paul must be wrong as God added the New Testament later.

As God allowed Paul's words here, to become scripture, He set His seal upon it that He agrees with Paul 100%, as it became scripture, its God writing it too.

BUT God and Paul aren't wrong, consider this analogy:

It does not prove the guests of a banquet were starving to death, when the host offers them more food near its end.

The Old Testament is able to make wise unto salvation, therefore, how much more is Scripture able to completely equip for every good work, including teaching others true doctrine, now that the New Testament has been added!

Now answer my question.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 28, 2010, 11:11:16 PM


It certainly DOES say Abraham and Israel ARE ignorant of the living:

KJV Isaiah 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.  

Nope, not at all.  The statement here is the same as St Peter saying "Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended." (Matt 26:33)  It is a hypothetical statement.  In this case "Though" means "if" or "suppose".  The Hebrews were relatively agnostic about the afterlife, and made no definitive statements one way or the other.  They had no way of knowing if Abraham or Israel could know anything.

From the parable of the rich man and Lazarus it seems as if Abraham has greater knowledge than you assume from this one text in Isaiah, knowing the deeds of the rich man and Lazarus both.

Regardless, you still don't seem to see the fundamental difference between a hypothetical statement in Isaiah's time and a reality in ours.  The Living God descended into Sheol and set the captives free.  Those who were in the ignorance of death were sent the Divine Truth of Life (I Peter 3:18-20, 4:6)!

"Though" is not in the Greek:

BGT  Isaiah 63:16 σὺ γὰρ ἡμῶν εἶ πατήρ ὅτι Αβρααμ οὐκ ἔγνω ἡμᾶς καὶ Ισραηλ οὐκ ἐπέγνω ἡμᾶς ἀλλὰ σύ κύριε πατὴρ ἡμῶν ῥῦσαι ἡμᾶς ἀπ᾽ ἀρχῆς τὸ ὄνομά σου ἐφ᾽ ἡμᾶς ἐστιν (Isa 63:16 BGT)

LXE  Isaiah 63:16 For thou art our Father; for though Abraham knew us not, and Israel did not acknowledge us, yet do thou, O Lord, our Father, deliver us: thy name has been upon us from the beginning.  (Isa 63:16 LXE)

It affirms literally directly "for Abraham knew us not."

No "if" in the Greek at all, no "though".

The dead are departed, angels come and take their souls into paradise upon death...paradise is in third heaven...its the place from whence Christ will "scoop up" souls to resurrect during His descent at His Second coming:

NKJ  Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
 (Luk 23:43 NKJ)

Paradise = Third Heaven

 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
 3 And I know such a man-- whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--
 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
 (2Co 12:2-4 NKJ)

Its up, not down:

LXE  Ecclesiastes 3:21 And who has seen the spirit of the sons of man, whether it goes upward? and the spirit of the beast, whether it goes downward to the earth?
 (Ecc 3:21 LXE)

 22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
 23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
 (Luk 16:22-23 NKJ)

Christ empties third heaven of human souls during His descent...He brings them with Him, they are part of His army:
 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
 (1Th 4:15-18 NKJ)


THEREFORE the departed, being they are "departed," cannot hear us.

Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: PeterTheAleut on August 28, 2010, 11:30:18 PM
As for THEOSIS, if that enabled saints to hear other saints not actually present, then you would find examples of that in scripture. Surely you believe there are some on earth today who partake of divine nature. Why do these folks have telephones to talk to each other, if divine energies make them part of a communion of the saints network?

Have you read the New Testament? The Apostles healed people and even raised the dead. People didn't have to pray to them; they were there in the flesh.

(Technically, the people asking the then-living Apostles to help them was an act of prayer. A prayer is simply a request, as in the phrase, "I pray you tell." Also, notice that when asked, the Apostles simply healed people. They didn't say, "No! Don't ask me, idolator! Go pray to God and he'll heal your child.")

You evaded my question...here it is again:

As for THEOSIS, if that enabled saints to hear other saints not actually present, then you would find examples of that in scripture. Surely you believe there are some on earth today who partake of divine nature. Why do these folks have telephones to talk to each other, if divine energies make them part of a communion of the saints network?

I see the apostles doing lots of miracles, communicating with folks not present isn't one of them.

Answer the question please.

I'll answer you, but first tell me this: where does the New Testament claim to be the sole, all-encompassing, and comprehensive source of history and doctrine from the Apostolic age, describing in indisputable detail every single important event or doctrinal detail? That is the crux of our problem. Until you can answer that, your arguments from silence are pointless, as you have not established that your position is anything more than a presupposition.

Because if the New Testament is not the sole, all-encompassing, comprehensive source for all things that you seem to imply that it is, the answer doesn't matter. If there is no record of that happening, we can't say if it did or not. We certainly cannot rule it out. If there is a record of it happening, you lose automatically.

In other words, first prove that the answer to the question is worth a hill of beans, and then I'll answer it. If you can't, then I won't.

I never said it did, BUT it claims to have everything necessary for my being completely equipped:
No, it doesn't.  What this passage from one of St. Paul's epistles does claim is that the Scriptures are useful for fully equipping the follower of Christ for good works, but it doesn't say that the Scriptures have everything necessary for us to be so equipped.  What you present is a very common Protestant eisegesis of the text, but it is nowhere to be found in the text.

15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 (2Ti 3:15-1 NKJ)
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: SolEX01 on August 28, 2010, 11:54:32 PM
A self contradiction, decrying the "tradition of man" you bind yourself to Orthodox tradition, which realized its defects and sought to stabilize itself in the "consensus of the fathers."

Sola scriptura is the antidote for relying upon "the tradition of man," for the Bible is written by God.

How many "man-made" English translations of the Bible exist?  NIV, NKJV, RSV, ESV, "the Message," and so on....

How many "man-made" interpretations of the Bible exist?

So, if "something" in the Bible doesn't agree with "your" belief system (or Mel Gibson's or Anne Rice's, just for sake of argument), then you "conjure up" an interpretation and proselytize to us that you discovered something that we hadn't noticed previously.

If I tried that, I would be discredited in a heartbeat; yet, you've had hundreds of posts to keep digging your own grave.  I'm not the one to give you a shovel to keep digging your own grave.   ;D

Edited for content
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: FormerReformer on August 29, 2010, 12:05:24 AM


It certainly DOES say Abraham and Israel ARE ignorant of the living:

KJV Isaiah 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.  

Nope, not at all.  The statement here is the same as St Peter saying "Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended." (Matt 26:33)  It is a hypothetical statement.  In this case "Though" means "if" or "suppose".  The Hebrews were relatively agnostic about the afterlife, and made no definitive statements one way or the other.  They had no way of knowing if Abraham or Israel could know anything.

From the parable of the rich man and Lazarus it seems as if Abraham has greater knowledge than you assume from this one text in Isaiah, knowing the deeds of the rich man and Lazarus both.

Regardless, you still don't seem to see the fundamental difference between a hypothetical statement in Isaiah's time and a reality in ours.  The Living God descended into Sheol and set the captives free.  Those who were in the ignorance of death were sent the Divine Truth of Life (I Peter 3:18-20, 4:6)!

"Though" is not in the Greek:

BGT  Isaiah 63:16 σὺ γὰρ ἡμῶν εἶ πατήρ ὅτι Αβρααμ οὐκ ἔγνω ἡμᾶς καὶ Ισραηλ οὐκ ἐπέγνω ἡμᾶς ἀλλὰ σύ κύριε πατὴρ ἡμῶν ῥῦσαι ἡμᾶς ἀπ᾽ ἀρχῆς τὸ ὄνομά σου ἐφ᾽ ἡμᾶς ἐστιν (Isa 63:16 BGT)

LXE  Isaiah 63:16 For thou art our Father; for though Abraham knew us not, and Israel did not acknowledge us, yet do thou, O Lord, our Father, deliver us: thy name has been upon us from the beginning.  (Isa 63:16 LXE)

It affirms literally directly "for Abraham knew us not."

No "if" in the Greek at all, no "though".


I'm willing to concede that "ei" in this case might be a form of "eis" and not "ei" which means "if" or "though", but if so a lot of translators have it off.  Regardless, one verse in Isaiah does not supersede a parable of Christ, in which Abraham seems a lot more informed than you think.


Quote
The dead are departed, angels come and take their souls into paradise upon death...paradise is in third heaven...its the place from whence Christ will "scoop up" souls to resurrect during His descent at His Second coming:

NKJ  Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
 (Luk 23:43 NKJ)

Paradise = Third Heaven

 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
 3 And I know such a man-- whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--
 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
 (2Co 12:2-4 NKJ)

Some.  Some ring the throne of God, as seen in Revelation 4:4.


Quote
Its up, not down:

LXE  Ecclesiastes 3:21 And who has seen the spirit of the sons of man, whether it goes upward? and the spirit of the beast, whether it goes downward to the earth?
 (Ecc 3:21 LXE)

Wow, you are really stretching it here.  It's a statement of agnosticism, the very verse prior the Preacher claims that both souls of animals and man go to the same place.  It's certainly not a roadmap to the afterlife.

Quote
22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
 23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
 (Luk 16:22-23 NKJ)

All we see here is that Lazarus was "up" in relation to the rich man.

Quote
Christ empties third heaven of human souls during His descent...He brings them with Him, they are part of His army:
 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
 (1Th 4:15-18 NKJ)


Christ already descended, both into the world and into the grave.  Yes, we look forward to His return, but this very verse you give to us shows Christ not bringing those "from the third heaven down" but all meeting together in the clouds.

Quote
THEREFORE the departed, being they are "departed," cannot hear us.

Nothing you have shown proves one way or the other.  You are arguing not from silence but from proof-texts that have absolutely nothing to do with your point.

Good night, Mr Persson.

Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Melodist on August 29, 2010, 01:54:12 AM
15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
 16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain;
 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me.
 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day-- and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.
 (2Ti 1:15-18 NKJ)

19 Greet Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus. (2Ti 4:19 NKJ)

So its likely this Onespihorus was departed,

On a side note, does this mean that you are not opposed to praying for the departed?

And just in case you missed it

These praying saints are already in heaven at the time the book of seals is given to the lamb, the prayers are not from saints on earth and no intercession is occurring in either context.

The word "saints" is typically used in the NT to refer to the saints here on earth. The saints in heaven are offering up the prayers of the saints on earth.

Quote
Psalm 103:20-22 does not say pray to Mary and she will intercede for you.

It might not be addressed to human saints in heaven, but it is addressed to the angels in heaven. There is a line addressed to someone in heaven, other than God.

Quote
Matt 18:10 doesn't mention the living praying to children in heaven to obtain favor.

It says that the angels in heaven are aware of what is happening on earth and communicate (pray) to God about it.

Quote
Luke 15:7 Says nothing about praying to the departed, its about sinners repenting, and the joy that brings in
heaven.

It says that heaven (human saints would be included, seeing there is no restriction to "who" in heaven is rejoicing) is aware of events that happen on earth (the repentence of a sinner).

Between all of these, it is established that those in heaven are aware of what goes on down here, we can address those in heaven, and they communicate with God and offer up prayers.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: rakovsky on August 29, 2010, 02:54:22 AM
You evaded my question...here it is again
For someone who has recognized full well the fallacy of arguments from silence, you seem to rely upon these arguments from silence quite a bit in your posts. ::)  If arguments from silence don't work for others, what makes you so special that you think they'll work for you?
is absence of evidence, evidence of absence?
No, an argument from silence is unsound, proves nothing...

Mr. Persson,

Do you happen to agree with the substance of the Nicene Creed? Yes, I think you said you do.

Was it not the "men" of the church who wrote it with consensus inspired by the Holy Spirit?

Was not the Bible written by the "men" of the church inspired by the Holy Spirit?

And were not the number of those books chosen by the men of the church with consensus inspired by the Holy Spirit?

Regards


What do you think?

Perhaps while some traditions, like some ancient "men" of the early church may not be INFALLIBLE, they may still be an important AUTHORITY on the true Christian faith.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on August 29, 2010, 02:18:38 PM
You evaded my question...here it is again
For someone who has recognized full well the fallacy of arguments from silence, you seem to rely upon these arguments from silence quite a bit in your posts. ::)  If arguments from silence don't work for others, what makes you so special that you think they'll work for you?
is absence of evidence, evidence of absence?
No, an argument from silence is unsound, proves nothing...

Mr. Persson,

Do you happen to agree with the substance of the Nicene Creed? Yes, I think you said you do.

Was it not the "men" of the church who wrote it with consensus inspired by the Holy Spirit?

Was not the Bible written by the "men" of the church inspired by the Holy Spirit?

And were not the number of those books chosen by the men of the church with consensus inspired by the Holy Spirit?

Regards


What do you think?

Perhaps while some traditions, like some ancient "men" of the early church may not be INFALLIBLE, they may still be an important AUTHORITY on the true Christian faith.

I agree with Nicean Trinitarianism because it is taught in scripture, not because of Nicean Council.

"but about the faith they wrote not, `It seemed good,' but, `Thus believes the Catholic Church;' and thereupon they confessed how they believed, in order to shew that their own sentiments were not novel, but Apostolical; and what they wrote down was no discovery of theirs, but is the same as was taught by the Apostles.-Councils of Ariminum and Seleucia, Part I. History of the Councils, Athanasius.  

 
I don't accept what men teach, if it contradicts scripture, even if it seems to be inspired by God.

 36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 (1Co 14:36-38 NKJ)

Consider carefully what Paul was saying, the Corinthian church was experiencing mighty works of God, revelations via tongues, prophecy and supernatural knowledge (1 Cor 13:8ff; c. 14)

That inspired tradition would be considered infallible by both the Orthodox and Catholics.

Paul rejected it as being equal to the Word of God he preached.

Careful readers of scripture notice it was possible a "prophet" be wrong about an inspired teaching, yet not be cast out as a false prophet:

 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.
 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.
 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
 (1Co 14:29-33 NKJ)

A person might be prophesying, and be wrong...those established in the faith, two or three themselves prophets, were to judge the "inspired utterance" to verify its orthodoxy.

No hint of condemnation if these judge the utterance to be wrong, which proves to me this wasn't what we today consider "prophecy." Rather it was equal to today's expository preaching, where someone believes they have a doctrine right, and they teach it to the church. If a spirit were prophesying incorrect, I have no doubt he would have been cast out of the church.


How could a "Holy Spirit filled man" get his inspired prophecy wrong? Human nature.

The Holy Spirit's guidance is not "dictation," He grants "perception" into the truth, but it still requires an act of will to accept it, and being "inspired to choose what is right" is not revelation of God's Word. If you don't grasp a doctrine, because you refuse to consider facts, or weren't diligent to uncover all the facts, the Holy Spirit isn't going to reveal them to you. You are required to do due diligence...and then He guides you, using the facts, to the truth.

God is not going to override YOU, your personality and will, He loves us too much for that. He "respects our person," and loves us...He does not indwell, to make robots.

So an inspired teacher might think he has it right, but does not. Although there may be a "nagging doubt" that the Holy Spirit is using to warn him he doesn't, that can be ignored, to our own detriment of course. (Never ignore or trample upon a doubt about a teaching, always verify the teaching by God's Word the Bible).


So Paul is very clear, regardless what a "church's living tradition" is, he brought the inerrant, infallible "word of God" to the church. The Word of God does not come from the church.

THAT is why I don't believe church tradition above scripture, no church, even one shepherded by an apostle, has the "word of God"...that came through Christ and His apostles only...therefore sola scriptura is necessary.

Don't misinterpret sola scriptura, I don't reject everything outside of scripture, some of it is helpful, fills in gaps, language cannot be understood without considering extra-biblical usage...but NONE of that material is "the word of God" therefore ONLY SCRIPTURA, or SCRIPTURE ALONE is the "word of God." Everything else is below it in authority.

ANOTHER aspect of this, the apostles themselves were not infallible:

NKJ  James 3:1 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.
 2 For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body.
 (Jam 3:1-2 NKJ)

8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
 (Gal 1:8-9 NKJ)

 11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; (Gal 2:11 NKJ)


Once their preaching became scripture, then it has God's seal on it as infallible.

NKJ  2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, (2Ti 3:16 NKJ)



Therefore, even if one of the apostles were alive today, preaching, I would still judge what he said, by researching scripture.

That is precisely what the Bereans did, and they were commended for it:

NKJ  Acts 17:11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.
 (Act 17:11 NKJ)


Therefore Catholic and Orthodox ideas about ECF tradition, magisterium, living tradition of the church, are all wrong. Scripture alone is verified as the Word of God, everything else is below it in  authority.




Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: bogdan on August 29, 2010, 06:45:06 PM
I'll answer you, but first tell me this: where does the New Testament claim to be the sole, all-encompassing, and comprehensive source of history and doctrine from the Apostolic age, describing in indisputable detail every single important event or doctrinal detail? That is the crux of our problem. Until you can answer that, your arguments from silence are pointless, as you have not established that your position is anything more than a presupposition.

Because if the New Testament is not the sole, all-encompassing, comprehensive source for all things that you seem to imply that it is, the answer doesn't matter. If there is no record of that happening, we can't say if it did or not. We certainly cannot rule it out. If there is a record of it happening, you lose automatically.

In other words, first prove that the answer to the question is worth a hill of beans, and then I'll answer it. If you can't, then I won't.

I never said it did, BUT it claims to have everything necessary for my being completely equipped:

 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 (2Ti 3:15-1 NKJ)

In context it may be Paul says this about the Old Testament only. Therefore some argue Paul must be wrong as God added the New Testament later.

As God allowed Paul's words here, to become scripture, He set His seal upon it that He agrees with Paul 100%, as it became scripture, its God writing it too.

BUT God and Paul aren't wrong, consider this analogy:

It does not prove the guests of a banquet were starving to death, when the host offers them more food near its end.

The Old Testament is able to make wise unto salvation, therefore, how much more is Scripture able to completely equip for every good work, including teaching others true doctrine, now that the New Testament has been added!

Now answer my question.

(I think PeterTheAleut gave a fine response, but for my own part—)

No, actually it doesn't claim that. You are once again defaulting to reading the words through your bias.

The text does say that Scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction. And because of that doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction, he will be equipped.

The text does not say that the Scripture itself equips people. Rather they are equipped by these things that are derived from scripture. (We could get into a whole discussion about this by itself, but it's beside the point.)

My point is: even in this verse, which stands at the very pinnacle of the Sola Scriptura defense, the Bible does not claim to be all-sufficient or all-equipping. The Bible does not claim sole authority for itself, as you yourself admitted. Nor does it claim that every single doctrine and practice must flow from its pages. Therefore, whether prayers to the saints are in the Bible or not—it doesn't matter—it has zero bearing on the legitimacy of such a practice, because the Bible is not intrinsically all-encompassing and all-sufficient. If it was, it would say so.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Melodist on August 29, 2010, 07:11:13 PM
I never said it did, BUT it claims to have everything necessary for my being completely equipped:

 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 (2Ti 3:15-1 NKJ)

You forgot vs 10-14:

But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

Timothy's knowledge of the Scripture was not enough by itself. He needed to keep his understanding of the Scripture in line with what Paul had taught him through discipleship.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: recent convert on August 30, 2010, 08:50:23 AM
Again the preaching in the tradition of man is given to us divorced from holy tradition by inflating an aspect of heavenly worship within holy tradition counter to its meaning reduced to legalistic, justification of human reasoning. Case in point, "the cloud of witnesses" in Hebrews 12:1 are reduced by individualist rationalization to an obituary listing by opinion that replaces their role within the scripture since it is their witness that assists us to "lay aside every weight and sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us.looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith..." (Hebrews 12:1-2 in part).

The tradition of man being preached to us keeps boasting in the scripture that we do not follow scripture which is false and refernces to Calvin for wisdom are poison to us. To expand on the cloud of witness idea, if I was an Ethiopian Orthodox, this concept would be easily Biblically illustrated to me on the basis that the book of Enoch which is in the canon of their church states, "...I saw the habitations and couches of the saints. There my eyes beheld their habitations with the angels, and their couches with the holy ones. They were entreating, supplicating, & praying for the sons of men.." (enoch 39:4). This is the understanding we see within the letter of Hebrews and the roll call given by St. Paul (which includes Enoch) in Hebrews 11 of the faithful witnesses in which the point culminates in Hebrews 12:1. The concept of the many habitations seems most similar to what the Lord says, "In My Father's house are many mansions..."in John 14:2.

Why Enoch is not universal canon, I do not know (it was lost for over 1000 years in many areas) but it was written before & attests to the revelation of the Son of God in many areas & clearly evident within holy tradtion & such attestation expressed in liturgical worship centuries prior to the codification of canon beats guess work of the apostolic faith expressed by a tradtion of man.

A self contradiction, decrying the "tradition of man" you bind yourself to Orthodox tradition, which realized its defects and sought to stabilize itself in the "consensus of the fathers."

Sola scriptura is the antidote for relying upon "the tradition of man," for the Bible is written by God.


.



So the same book that St. Jude quotes from in his epistle as scripture is a tradition of man. Why refer anywhere else to scripture & source other than your postings?
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 01, 2010, 03:56:18 AM
Again the preaching in the tradition of man is given to us divorced from holy tradition by inflating an aspect of heavenly worship within holy tradition counter to its meaning reduced to legalistic, justification of human reasoning. Case in point, "the cloud of witnesses" in Hebrews 12:1 are reduced by individualist rationalization to an obituary listing by opinion that replaces their role within the scripture since it is their witness that assists us to "lay aside every weight and sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us.looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith..." (Hebrews 12:1-2 in part).

The tradition of man being preached to us keeps boasting in the scripture that we do not follow scripture which is false and refernces to Calvin for wisdom are poison to us. To expand on the cloud of witness idea, if I was an Ethiopian Orthodox, this concept would be easily Biblically illustrated to me on the basis that the book of Enoch which is in the canon of their church states, "...I saw the habitations and couches of the saints. There my eyes beheld their habitations with the angels, and their couches with the holy ones. They were entreating, supplicating, & praying for the sons of men.." (enoch 39:4). This is the understanding we see within the letter of Hebrews and the roll call given by St. Paul (which includes Enoch) in Hebrews 11 of the faithful witnesses in which the point culminates in Hebrews 12:1. The concept of the many habitations seems most similar to what the Lord says, "In My Father's house are many mansions..."in John 14:2.

Why Enoch is not universal canon, I do not know (it was lost for over 1000 years in many areas) but it was written before & attests to the revelation of the Son of God in many areas & clearly evident within holy tradtion & such attestation expressed in liturgical worship centuries prior to the codification of canon beats guess work of the apostolic faith expressed by a tradtion of man.

A self contradiction, decrying the "tradition of man" you bind yourself to Orthodox tradition, which realized its defects and sought to stabilize itself in the "consensus of the fathers."

Sola scriptura is the antidote for relying upon "the tradition of man," for the Bible is written by God.


.



So the same book that St. Jude quotes from in his epistle as scripture is a tradition of man. Why refer anywhere else to scripture & source other than your postings?

You assume he quotes Enoch, both could just as likely be citing the same tradition that is unknown today.

BUT lets assume you are correct, does it follow the book should be canon?

Paul quotes two "poets", Epimenides the Cretan (c. 600 B.C.) "For in thee we live and move and have our being” and Phainomena  a Cilician Aratus (born 310 B.C.) about Zeus: "for we are truly his offspring.”  

KJV  Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. (Act 17:28 KJV)  

Are these are to be made canon? Of course not, therefore neither should Enoch. The content of the book clearly conflicts with NT teaching.


 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isa 8:20 NKJ)
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 01, 2010, 04:00:03 AM
I never said it did, BUT it claims to have everything necessary for my being completely equipped:

 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 (2Ti 3:15-1 NKJ)

You forgot vs 10-14:

But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

Timothy's knowledge of the Scripture was not enough by itself. He needed to keep his understanding of the Scripture in line with what Paul had taught him through discipleship.


That's not what the statement implies...you want Paul contradict himself, but that don't mean he did.

To say Timothy knew Paul's trials and doctrine is not to say he believed what contradicted Paul's teaching in scripture.

Wow!

Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 01, 2010, 04:01:57 AM
I'll answer you, but first tell me this: where does the New Testament claim to be the sole, all-encompassing, and comprehensive source of history and doctrine from the Apostolic age, describing in indisputable detail every single important event or doctrinal detail? That is the crux of our problem. Until you can answer that, your arguments from silence are pointless, as you have not established that your position is anything more than a presupposition.

Because if the New Testament is not the sole, all-encompassing, comprehensive source for all things that you seem to imply that it is, the answer doesn't matter. If there is no record of that happening, we can't say if it did or not. We certainly cannot rule it out. If there is a record of it happening, you lose automatically.

In other words, first prove that the answer to the question is worth a hill of beans, and then I'll answer it. If you can't, then I won't.

I never said it did, BUT it claims to have everything necessary for my being completely equipped:

 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 (2Ti 3:15-1 NKJ)

In context it may be Paul says this about the Old Testament only. Therefore some argue Paul must be wrong as God added the New Testament later.

As God allowed Paul's words here, to become scripture, He set His seal upon it that He agrees with Paul 100%, as it became scripture, its God writing it too.

BUT God and Paul aren't wrong, consider this analogy:

It does not prove the guests of a banquet were starving to death, when the host offers them more food near its end.

The Old Testament is able to make wise unto salvation, therefore, how much more is Scripture able to completely equip for every good work, including teaching others true doctrine, now that the New Testament has been added!

Now answer my question.

(I think PeterTheAleut gave a fine response, but for my own part—)

No, actually it doesn't claim that. You are once again defaulting to reading the words through your bias.

The text does say that Scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction. And because of that doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction, he will be equipped.

The text does not say that the Scripture itself equips people. Rather they are equipped by these things that are derived from scripture. (We could get into a whole discussion about this by itself, but it's beside the point.)

My point is: even in this verse, which stands at the very pinnacle of the Sola Scriptura defense, the Bible does not claim to be all-sufficient or all-equipping. The Bible does not claim sole authority for itself, as you yourself admitted. Nor does it claim that every single doctrine and practice must flow from its pages. Therefore, whether prayers to the saints are in the Bible or not—it doesn't matter—it has zero bearing on the legitimacy of such a practice, because the Bible is not intrinsically all-encompassing and all-sufficient. If it was, it would say so.

Incorrect, the text says God wrote scripture IN ORDER THAT (hina) the man of God be complete.

You allege God failed in His mission.

I think that an odd place for a Christian to be.

Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: genesisone on September 01, 2010, 06:59:34 AM
Alfred, precisely what were the Holy Scriptures that Timothy would have known from his childhood?
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Melodist on September 01, 2010, 10:07:26 AM
I never said it did, BUT it claims to have everything necessary for my being completely equipped:

 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 (2Ti 3:15-1 NKJ)

You forgot vs 10-14:

But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

Timothy's knowledge of the Scripture was not enough by itself. He needed to keep his understanding of the Scripture in line with what Paul had taught him through discipleship.


That's not what the statement implies...you want Paul contradict himself, but that don't mean he did.

To say Timothy knew Paul's trials and doctrine is not to say he believed what contradicted Paul's teaching in scripture.

Wow!

I think you missed the point. The phrase "what contradicted Paul's teaching in scripture" is an anachronism because Paul is talking about the OT here and I also don't believe Paul's doctrine that he taught through discipleship would not be in contradiction to what he wrote. I;m not saying Paul contradicted himself. You are. You are the one saying that Paul said that scripture is the only thing you need and Paul said "continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them" meaning Timothy was to continue in what Paul had taught him. The scribes and pharisees had Scripture. They knew it inside and out. That did not make most of them wise to salvation with the exception of a few. They still missed the point. Obviously Scripture was not enough for them. For Paul, the faith wasn't passed down in the form of a book, it was passed down through discipleship.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: bogdan on September 01, 2010, 10:24:46 AM
I'll answer you, but first tell me this: where does the New Testament claim to be the sole, all-encompassing, and comprehensive source of history and doctrine from the Apostolic age, describing in indisputable detail every single important event or doctrinal detail? That is the crux of our problem. Until you can answer that, your arguments from silence are pointless, as you have not established that your position is anything more than a presupposition.

Because if the New Testament is not the sole, all-encompassing, comprehensive source for all things that you seem to imply that it is, the answer doesn't matter. If there is no record of that happening, we can't say if it did or not. We certainly cannot rule it out. If there is a record of it happening, you lose automatically.

In other words, first prove that the answer to the question is worth a hill of beans, and then I'll answer it. If you can't, then I won't.

I never said it did, BUT it claims to have everything necessary for my being completely equipped:

 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 (2Ti 3:15-1 NKJ)

In context it may be Paul says this about the Old Testament only. Therefore some argue Paul must be wrong as God added the New Testament later.

As God allowed Paul's words here, to become scripture, He set His seal upon it that He agrees with Paul 100%, as it became scripture, its God writing it too.

BUT God and Paul aren't wrong, consider this analogy:

It does not prove the guests of a banquet were starving to death, when the host offers them more food near its end.

The Old Testament is able to make wise unto salvation, therefore, how much more is Scripture able to completely equip for every good work, including teaching others true doctrine, now that the New Testament has been added!

Now answer my question.

(I think PeterTheAleut gave a fine response, but for my own part—)

No, actually it doesn't claim that. You are once again defaulting to reading the words through your bias.

The text does say that Scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction. And because of that doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction, he will be equipped.

The text does not say that the Scripture itself equips people. Rather they are equipped by these things that are derived from scripture. (We could get into a whole discussion about this by itself, but it's beside the point.)

My point is: even in this verse, which stands at the very pinnacle of the Sola Scriptura defense, the Bible does not claim to be all-sufficient or all-equipping. The Bible does not claim sole authority for itself, as you yourself admitted. Nor does it claim that every single doctrine and practice must flow from its pages. Therefore, whether prayers to the saints are in the Bible or not—it doesn't matter—it has zero bearing on the legitimacy of such a practice, because the Bible is not intrinsically all-encompassing and all-sufficient. If it was, it would say so.

Incorrect, the text says God wrote scripture IN ORDER THAT (hina) the man of God be complete.

You allege God failed in His mission.

I think that an odd place for a Christian to be.

No, it does not say that, Alfred. It says:

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

It is utterly nonsensical to interpret it the way you do. A man of God is not complete simply because he reads the Bible. A man of God is complete because his life is conformed to God's will. He conforms to God's will because he has learned doctrine, been reproofed, been corrected, and been instructed in righteousness. And Scripture is a profitable means to those ends, though it nowhere says it is the sole means.

As for God's failing his mission, I stand firmly on the truth that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church. :)
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 01, 2010, 03:14:21 PM
I'll answer you, but first tell me this: where does the New Testament claim to be the sole, all-encompassing, and comprehensive source of history and doctrine from the Apostolic age, describing in indisputable detail every single important event or doctrinal detail? That is the crux of our problem. Until you can answer that, your arguments from silence are pointless, as you have not established that your position is anything more than a presupposition.

Because if the New Testament is not the sole, all-encompassing, comprehensive source for all things that you seem to imply that it is, the answer doesn't matter. If there is no record of that happening, we can't say if it did or not. We certainly cannot rule it out. If there is a record of it happening, you lose automatically.

In other words, first prove that the answer to the question is worth a hill of beans, and then I'll answer it. If you can't, then I won't.

I never said it did, BUT it claims to have everything necessary for my being completely equipped:

 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 (2Ti 3:15-1 NKJ)

In context it may be Paul says this about the Old Testament only. Therefore some argue Paul must be wrong as God added the New Testament later.

As God allowed Paul's words here, to become scripture, He set His seal upon it that He agrees with Paul 100%, as it became scripture, its God writing it too.

BUT God and Paul aren't wrong, consider this analogy:

It does not prove the guests of a banquet were starving to death, when the host offers them more food near its end.

The Old Testament is able to make wise unto salvation, therefore, how much more is Scripture able to completely equip for every good work, including teaching others true doctrine, now that the New Testament has been added!

Now answer my question.

(I think PeterTheAleut gave a fine response, but for my own part—)

No, actually it doesn't claim that. You are once again defaulting to reading the words through your bias.

The text does say that Scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction. And because of that doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction, he will be equipped.

The text does not say that the Scripture itself equips people. Rather they are equipped by these things that are derived from scripture. (We could get into a whole discussion about this by itself, but it's beside the point.)

My point is: even in this verse, which stands at the very pinnacle of the Sola Scriptura defense, the Bible does not claim to be all-sufficient or all-equipping. The Bible does not claim sole authority for itself, as you yourself admitted. Nor does it claim that every single doctrine and practice must flow from its pages. Therefore, whether prayers to the saints are in the Bible or not—it doesn't matter—it has zero bearing on the legitimacy of such a practice, because the Bible is not intrinsically all-encompassing and all-sufficient. If it was, it would say so.

Incorrect, the text says God wrote scripture IN ORDER THAT (hina) the man of God be complete.

You allege God failed in His mission.

I think that an odd place for a Christian to be.

No, it does not say that, Alfred. It says:

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

It is utterly nonsensical to interpret it the way you do. A man of God is not complete simply because he reads the Bible. A man of God is complete because his life is conformed to God's will. He conforms to God's will because he has learned doctrine, been reproofed, been corrected, and been instructed in righteousness. And Scripture is a profitable means to those ends, though it nowhere says it is the sole means.

As for God's failing his mission, I stand firmly on the truth that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church. :)

Its nonsense to believe what it says?


 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
     ἵνα ἄρτιος ᾖ ὁ τοῦ θεοῦ ἄνθρωπος πρὸς πᾶν ἔργον ἀγαθὸν ἐξηρτισμένος
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

HINA, lit. "in order that"; "so that"

NAU  2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

NIB  2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

All scripture is given....in order that the man of God may thoroughly equipped.


That's what it says, literally.


Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: PeterTheAleut on September 01, 2010, 04:28:28 PM
Its nonsense to believe what it says?


 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
     ἵνα ἄρτιος ᾖ ὁ τοῦ θεοῦ ἄνθρωπος πρὸς πᾶν ἔργον ἀγαθὸν ἐξηρτισμένος
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

HINA, lit. "in order that"; "so that"

NAU  2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

NIB  2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

All scripture is given....in order that the man of God may thoroughly equipped.


That's what it says, literally.
And yet, even when we hold ourselves strictly to the literal sense of the text, there's still more than one way to interpret the literal meaning of the text.  This isn't true of just the Bible.  This is true of virtually all written texts.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 02, 2010, 01:54:43 AM
Its nonsense to believe what it says?


 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
     ἵνα ἄρτιος ᾖ ὁ τοῦ θεοῦ ἄνθρωπος πρὸς πᾶν ἔργον ἀγαθὸν ἐξηρτισμένος
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

HINA, lit. "in order that"; "so that"

NAU  2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

NIB  2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

All scripture is given....in order that the man of God may thoroughly equipped.


That's what it says, literally.
And yet, even when we hold ourselves strictly to the literal sense of the text, there's still more than one way to interpret the literal meaning of the text.  This isn't true of just the Bible.  This is true of virtually all written texts.

It is not written:

 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, but not literally profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, as its sense cannot be determined by reading it...its not literal.

God is the author of confusion, if you believe what God literally says, you will be deceived.

God wrote the Bible, so that the man of God not literally know what He is saying, and that is virtually true of all the texts He wrote.


Your proposition therefore is impossible. Intelligent beings write to be understood, God is intelligent, therefore He writes to be understood. That requires He wrote what He meant...that His words are to be naturally understood, which means as literal as the context requires.

Even where God employs figurative language, or allegory, He makes literally clear the reference:

KJV  Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
 (Gal 4:24 KJV)

NKJ  1 Corinthians 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
 (1Co 10:4 NKJ)








Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: PeterTheAleut on September 02, 2010, 06:49:04 AM
Its nonsense to believe what it says?


 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
     ἵνα ἄρτιος ᾖ ὁ τοῦ θεοῦ ἄνθρωπος πρὸς πᾶν ἔργον ἀγαθὸν ἐξηρτισμένος
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

HINA, lit. "in order that"; "so that"

NAU  2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

NIB  2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

All scripture is given....in order that the man of God may thoroughly equipped.


That's what it says, literally.
And yet, even when we hold ourselves strictly to the literal sense of the text, there's still more than one way to interpret the literal meaning of the text.  This isn't true of just the Bible.  This is true of virtually all written texts.

It is not written:

 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, but not literally profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, as its sense cannot be determined by reading it...its not literal.

God is the author of confusion, if you believe what God literally says, you will be deceived.

God wrote the Bible, so that the man of God not literally know what He is saying, and that is virtually true of all the texts He wrote.


Your proposition therefore is impossible. Intelligent beings write to be understood, God is intelligent, therefore He writes to be understood. That requires He wrote what He meant...that His words are to be naturally understood, which means as literal as the context requires.

Even where God employs figurative language, or allegory, He makes literally clear the reference:

KJV  Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
 (Gal 4:24 KJV)

NKJ  1 Corinthians 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
 (1Co 10:4 NKJ)
You totally miss my point, then, for I'm talking about the reader, not the writer.  How do you know you're reading the text correctly?
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: genesisone on September 02, 2010, 09:15:22 AM
Alfred, you keep quoting 2 Tim 3:16-17. Those verses make no sense unless one understands that "all Scripture" must refer to the Holy Scriptures that Timothy had known from childhood (v. 15). Again I ask, please tell us what Timothy (and Paul) would have understood as the Holy Scriptures referred to in verse 15.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Papist on September 02, 2010, 02:02:19 PM
I'll answer you, but first tell me this: where does the New Testament claim to be the sole, all-encompassing, and comprehensive source of history and doctrine from the Apostolic age, describing in indisputable detail every single important event or doctrinal detail? That is the crux of our problem. Until you can answer that, your arguments from silence are pointless, as you have not established that your position is anything more than a presupposition.

Because if the New Testament is not the sole, all-encompassing, comprehensive source for all things that you seem to imply that it is, the answer doesn't matter. If there is no record of that happening, we can't say if it did or not. We certainly cannot rule it out. If there is a record of it happening, you lose automatically.

In other words, first prove that the answer to the question is worth a hill of beans, and then I'll answer it. If you can't, then I won't.

I never said it did, BUT it claims to have everything necessary for my being completely equipped:

 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 (2Ti 3:15-1 NKJ)

In context it may be Paul says this about the Old Testament only. Therefore some argue Paul must be wrong as God added the New Testament later.

As God allowed Paul's words here, to become scripture, He set His seal upon it that He agrees with Paul 100%, as it became scripture, its God writing it too.

BUT God and Paul aren't wrong, consider this analogy:

It does not prove the guests of a banquet were starving to death, when the host offers them more food near its end.

The Old Testament is able to make wise unto salvation, therefore, how much more is Scripture able to completely equip for every good work, including teaching others true doctrine, now that the New Testament has been added!

Now answer my question.

(I think PeterTheAleut gave a fine response, but for my own part—)

No, actually it doesn't claim that. You are once again defaulting to reading the words through your bias.

The text does say that Scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction. And because of that doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction, he will be equipped.

The text does not say that the Scripture itself equips people. Rather they are equipped by these things that are derived from scripture. (We could get into a whole discussion about this by itself, but it's beside the point.)

My point is: even in this verse, which stands at the very pinnacle of the Sola Scriptura defense, the Bible does not claim to be all-sufficient or all-equipping. The Bible does not claim sole authority for itself, as you yourself admitted. Nor does it claim that every single doctrine and practice must flow from its pages. Therefore, whether prayers to the saints are in the Bible or not—it doesn't matter—it has zero bearing on the legitimacy of such a practice, because the Bible is not intrinsically all-encompassing and all-sufficient. If it was, it would say so.

Incorrect, the text says God wrote scripture IN ORDER THAT (hina) the man of God be complete.

You allege God failed in His mission.

I think that an odd place for a Christian to be.

No, it does not say that, Alfred. It says:

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

It is utterly nonsensical to interpret it the way you do. A man of God is not complete simply because he reads the Bible. A man of God is complete because his life is conformed to God's will. He conforms to God's will because he has learned doctrine, been reproofed, been corrected, and been instructed in righteousness. And Scripture is a profitable means to those ends, though it nowhere says it is the sole means.

As for God's failing his mission, I stand firmly on the truth that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church. :)

Its nonsense to believe what it says?


 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
     ἵνα ἄρτιος ᾖ ὁ τοῦ θεοῦ ἄνθρωπος πρὸς πᾶν ἔργον ἀγαθὸν ἐξηρτισμένος
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

HINA, lit. "in order that"; "so that"

NAU  2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

NIB  2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

All scripture is given....in order that the man of God may thoroughly equipped.


That's what it says, literally.




It does NOT say that only scripture is the Word of God.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 02, 2010, 03:58:35 PM
It does NOT say that only scripture is the Word of God.

True, but why should I look elsewhere for the Word of God when it says its able to make me complete, thoroughly equipped?

IN other words, if I sit at the banquet, fully satisfied, should I go off into the desert in search of more food? Of course not.

BUT another scripture denies God's word is channeled through the church...

NKJ  1 Corinthians 14:36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

God spoke through the apostles, not the church:

 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
 (Heb 2:3-4 NKJ)


If God were speaking though someone in particular, they would manifest the same miraculous signs the apostles and Christ did.

No signs...no successors to the apostles...no word of God being delivered:

NKJ  Jude 1:3 contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. (Jud 1:3 NKJ)

There aren't multiple deliveries...it was already delivered, "once" and then it was up to us to contend for that truth.

Not invent novel truths as the centuries came and went.



Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: PeterTheAleut on September 02, 2010, 05:39:51 PM
It does NOT say that only scripture is the Word of God.

True, but why should I look elsewhere for the Word of God when it says its able to make me complete, thoroughly equipped?
We each have different learning styles.  That's why we Orthodox chant from the Scriptures, why we read the Scriptures in church, why we depend on patristic and conciliar interpretation of the Scriptures, why we have scenes from the Scriptures presented in icons, etc.

IN other words, if I sit at the banquet, fully satisfied, should I go off into the desert in search of more food? Of course not.
Can we ever be fully satisfied in our quest to know God better and know better what He demands of us?

BUT another scripture denies God's word is channeled through the church...

NKJ  1 Corinthians 14:36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

God spoke through the apostles, not the church:

 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
 (Heb 2:3-4 NKJ)
Personal judgment of the Church, together with proof texts that do not mean at all what you present them to mean.  Do you ignore 1 Timothy 3:15, where St. Paul calls the Church the pillar and ground of the Truth?  And why do you set up an artificial dichotomy between the Apostles and the Church, so as to set them in opposition to each other?  Were not the Apostles members of the Church they founded?  In speaking through the Apostles, did not God speak through the Church, of whom the Apostles were themselves members?

Did the Holy Spirit descend solely upon the Apostles or upon all of the 120 people who awaited His coming in the Upper Room?

If God were speaking though someone in particular, they would manifest the same miraculous signs the apostles and Christ did.

No signs...no successors to the apostles...
You aren't aware of the many miracles that have been performed by members of the Church in all the centuries since the last of the Apostles died?  I think that's about the only way you could make such a nonsensical claim as that.

no word of God being delivered:

NKJ  Jude 1:3 contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. (Jud 1:3 NKJ)
Once for all delivered, however, does not mean that the saints were also delivered a full and perfect comprehension of the faith delivered to them.

There aren't multiple deliveries...it was already delivered, "once" and then it was up to us to contend for that truth.

Not invent novel truths as the centuries came and went.
Such as the "truth" of sola scriptura, which, in the form in which you present it here, is not found in the Scriptures nor in the writings of the Early Fathers...
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 02, 2010, 05:56:17 PM
It does NOT say that only scripture is the Word of God.

True, but why should I look elsewhere for the Word of God when it says its able to make me complete, thoroughly equipped?
We each have different learning styles.  That's why we Orthodox chant from the Scriptures, why we read the Scriptures in church, why we depend on patristic and conciliar interpretation of the Scriptures, why we have scenes from the Scriptures presented in icons, etc.

The entire church labors under a misconception...that we must be very correct in doctrine to be saved...

When in fact all we need, is given to us by God. God puts the content of Peter's confession in our hearts and in our mouths:

 5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
 6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 (Rom 10:5-10 KJV)

Then we are rewarded for how well we followed Christ, built upon the one foundation, with apostolic materials:

 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
 (1Co 3:10-15 NKJ)

If they build upon the foundation of Christ (that flesh and blood did not reveal to them), buildings of straw, these shall be burned up in fire of God's testing, but they themselves will be saved, but as those who flee a burning house, with no possessions = no rewards.

Save salvation, for that is a gift from God and not of ourselves:

 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.


So Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants, and everyone who believes the others are going to hell, because they don't agree 100% with XYZ...are wrong...

God never trusted you folks would get it right.

The All knowing God who is Love knew you would all blow it.

Therefore you don't have to ask, who will ascend to heaven, to bring Christ down, or who will uncover Him from where He is hidden, simply throw yourself upon the mercy of Him in whom you live and move and have your being, and He will put the revelation of Christ, the PETRA upon which the church is built, in your heart and in your mouth.

Hence I don't see the need for your councils etc...especially as they bollixed everything up, except Athanasius that faithful servant.

Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: DennyB on September 02, 2010, 06:00:33 PM
It does NOT say that only scripture is the Word of God.

True, but why should I look elsewhere for the Word of God when it says its able to make me complete, thoroughly equipped?

IN other words, if I sit at the banquet, fully satisfied, should I go off into the desert in search of more food? Of course not.

BUT another scripture denies God's word is channeled through the church...

NKJ  1 Corinthians 14:36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

God spoke through the apostles, not the church:

 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
 (Heb 2:3-4 NKJ)


If God were speaking though someone in particular, they would manifest the same miraculous signs the apostles and Christ did.

No signs...no successors to the apostles...no word of God being delivered:

NKJ  Jude 1:3 contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. (Jud 1:3 NKJ)

There aren't multiple deliveries...it was already delivered, "once" and then it was up to us to contend for that truth.

Not invent novel truths as the centuries came and went.





Look at it this way, Let's say I know very little of Carpentry,and I get a phone call from a major Hardware store,and they told me that I have won $20,000 worth of tools for Carpentry, you could say I was THOROUGHLY FURNISHED for any carpentry job I could ever do,but my with my in-experience of carpentry and woodworking would prevent me from doing a professional job,it is the same thing with your 2 Timothy analogy!!
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: PeterTheAleut on September 02, 2010, 06:10:41 PM
It does NOT say that only scripture is the Word of God.

True, but why should I look elsewhere for the Word of God when it says its able to make me complete, thoroughly equipped?
We each have different learning styles.  That's why we Orthodox chant from the Scriptures, why we read the Scriptures in church, why we depend on patristic and conciliar interpretation of the Scriptures, why we have scenes from the Scriptures presented in icons, etc.

The entire church labors under a misconception...that we must be very correct in doctrine to be saved...
Seems like you're the one laboring under a misconception here.  For one, it's submission to Jesus Christ, not adherence to correct doctrine, that saves.  Additionally, the misconception under which you're laboring is the very same misconception of which you accuse us.  Otherwise, why in the world are you wasting so much of your time trying to teach us "correct" doctrine?

So the Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants, and everyone believe the other is going to hell, because they don't agree 100% with XYZ...
What about you?  Aren't you here trying to save us from hellfire?  Why else are you so hellbent on converting us to your brand of Christianity?

BUT our Omniscient and Loving God never trusted you, or them, to get it right.
So He sent us you.  How spiffing! ::)

Therefore you don't have to ask, who will ascend to heaven, to bring Christ down, or who will uncover Him from where He is hidden, simply throw yourself upon the mercy of Him in whom you live and move and have your being, and He will put the revelation of Christ, the PETRA upon which the church is build, in your heart and in your mouth.
I got news for you, Alfred.  We already have thrown ourselves upon His mercy.

Hence I don't see the need for your councils etc...especially as they bollixed everything up, except Athanasius that faithful servant.
Got any more half-baked opinions you'd like to sell us?
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 02, 2010, 06:23:40 PM
It does NOT say that only scripture is the Word of God.

True, but why should I look elsewhere for the Word of God when it says its able to make me complete, thoroughly equipped?

IN other words, if I sit at the banquet, fully satisfied, should I go off into the desert in search of more food? Of course not.

BUT another scripture denies God's word is channeled through the church...

NKJ  1 Corinthians 14:36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

God spoke through the apostles, not the church:

 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
 (Heb 2:3-4 NKJ)


If God were speaking though someone in particular, they would manifest the same miraculous signs the apostles and Christ did.

No signs...no successors to the apostles...no word of God being delivered:

NKJ  Jude 1:3 contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. (Jud 1:3 NKJ)

There aren't multiple deliveries...it was already delivered, "once" and then it was up to us to contend for that truth.

Not invent novel truths as the centuries came and went.





Look at it this way, Let's say I know very little of Carpentry,and I get a phone call from a major Hardware store,and they told me that I have won $20,000 worth of tools for Carpentry, you could say I was THOROUGHLY FURNISHED for any carpentry job I could ever do,but my with my in-experience of carpentry and woodworking would prevent me from doing a professional job,it is the same thing with your 2 Timothy analogy!!

Good argument, but it overlooks scripture making one "complete":

 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete,
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

"may be complete" by scripture alone, without need for councils.

Recall what is written in verse 15:

15 ...the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2Ti 3:15 NKJ)

The Holy Scriptures are ABLE to make wise unto salvation...provided its testimony about Jesus being the Christ, the Son of God, is believed.

There again the sufficiency of scripture is taught, in Christ.



Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 02, 2010, 06:26:26 PM
It does NOT say that only scripture is the Word of God.

True, but why should I look elsewhere for the Word of God when it says its able to make me complete, thoroughly equipped?
We each have different learning styles.  That's why we Orthodox chant from the Scriptures, why we read the Scriptures in church, why we depend on patristic and conciliar interpretation of the Scriptures, why we have scenes from the Scriptures presented in icons, etc.

The entire church labors under a misconception...that we must be very correct in doctrine to be saved...
Seems like you're the one laboring under a misconception here.  For one, it's submission to Jesus Christ, not adherence to correct doctrine, that saves.  Additionally, the misconception under which you're laboring is the very same misconception of which you accuse us.  Otherwise, why in the world are you wasting so much of your time trying to teach us "correct" doctrine?

So the Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants, and everyone believe the other is going to hell, because they don't agree 100% with XYZ...
What about you?  Aren't you here trying to save us from hellfire?  Why else are you so hellbent on converting us to your brand of Christianity?

BUT our Omniscient and Loving God never trusted you, or them, to get it right.
So He sent us you.  How spiffing! ::)

Therefore you don't have to ask, who will ascend to heaven, to bring Christ down, or who will uncover Him from where He is hidden, simply throw yourself upon the mercy of Him in whom you live and move and have your being, and He will put the revelation of Christ, the PETRA upon which the church is build, in your heart and in your mouth.
I got news for you, Alfred.  We already have thrown ourselves upon His mercy.

Hence I don't see the need for your councils etc...especially as they bollixed everything up, except Athanasius that faithful servant.
Got any more half-baked opinions you'd like to sell us?

Nothing I do is half baked...

It is written:

 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
 33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
 (Rom 8:29-34 NKJ)
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: PeterTheAleut on September 02, 2010, 07:29:14 PM
It does NOT say that only scripture is the Word of God.

True, but why should I look elsewhere for the Word of God when it says its able to make me complete, thoroughly equipped?
We each have different learning styles.  That's why we Orthodox chant from the Scriptures, why we read the Scriptures in church, why we depend on patristic and conciliar interpretation of the Scriptures, why we have scenes from the Scriptures presented in icons, etc.

The entire church labors under a misconception...that we must be very correct in doctrine to be saved...
Seems like you're the one laboring under a misconception here.  For one, it's submission to Jesus Christ, not adherence to correct doctrine, that saves.  Additionally, the misconception under which you're laboring is the very same misconception of which you accuse us.  Otherwise, why in the world are you wasting so much of your time trying to teach us "correct" doctrine?

So the Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants, and everyone believe the other is going to hell, because they don't agree 100% with XYZ...
What about you?  Aren't you here trying to save us from hellfire?  Why else are you so hellbent on converting us to your brand of Christianity?

BUT our Omniscient and Loving God never trusted you, or them, to get it right.
So He sent us you.  How spiffing! ::)

Therefore you don't have to ask, who will ascend to heaven, to bring Christ down, or who will uncover Him from where He is hidden, simply throw yourself upon the mercy of Him in whom you live and move and have your being, and He will put the revelation of Christ, the PETRA upon which the church is build, in your heart and in your mouth.
I got news for you, Alfred.  We already have thrown ourselves upon His mercy.

Hence I don't see the need for your councils etc...especially as they bollixed everything up, except Athanasius that faithful servant.
Got any more half-baked opinions you'd like to sell us?

Nothing I do is half baked...
And yet you failed to address the other issues I addressed earlier in my post, such as your slavery to the same misconception you accuse us of holding.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: DennyB on September 02, 2010, 09:21:03 PM
It does NOT say that only scripture is the Word of God.

True, but why should I look elsewhere for the Word of God when it says its able to make me complete, thoroughly equipped?

IN other words, if I sit at the banquet, fully satisfied, should I go off into the desert in search of more food? Of course not.

BUT another scripture denies God's word is channeled through the church...

NKJ  1 Corinthians 14:36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

God spoke through the apostles, not the church:

 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
 (Heb 2:3-4 NKJ)


If God were speaking though someone in particular, they would manifest the same miraculous signs the apostles and Christ did.

No signs...no successors to the apostles...no word of God being delivered:

NKJ  Jude 1:3 contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. (Jud 1:3 NKJ)

There aren't multiple deliveries...it was already delivered, "once" and then it was up to us to contend for that truth.

Not invent novel truths as the centuries came and went.





Look at it this way, Let's say I know very little of Carpentry,and I get a phone call from a major Hardware store,and they told me that I have won $20,000 worth of tools for Carpentry, you could say I was THOROUGHLY FURNISHED for any carpentry job I could ever do,but my with my in-experience of carpentry and woodworking would prevent me from doing a professional job,it is the same thing with your 2 Timothy analogy!!

Good argument, but it overlooks scripture making one "complete":

 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete,
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

"may be complete" by scripture alone, without need for councils.

Recall what is written in verse 15:

15 ...the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2Ti 3:15 NKJ)

The Holy Scriptures are ABLE to make wise unto salvation...provided its testimony about Jesus being the Christ, the Son of God, is believed.

There again the sufficiency of scripture is taught, in Christ.





Of course scripture can make one wise unto salvation,and furnish one with ALL the nessessary tools for good works,but there are many who also mis-use these tools and twist scripture to their own destruction!!!
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Papist on September 02, 2010, 09:39:30 PM
I think the "complete" argument is weak because the verse need not be understood in the way that Alfred understands it.
Look, lets say that I have a "complete" set of tools. If you take my hammer away it is not longer complete. But giving the hammer back would make it "complete"; yet, it is not the only tool that makes the set complete. If any tool is missing, it is not complete.
The scriptures are similar. They are necessary for our faith to be complete. Yet they are not the only thing necessary for our faith to be complete. Holy Tradition and the experience of the Saints is necessary as well.
Keep this is mind,
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." - 2 Thess 2:15   
Sounds like the bible explicitly rejects the doctrine of Sola Scriptura.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Papist on September 02, 2010, 09:41:35 PM
Alfred, I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish here. Most of the people here are very well educated in the Scriptures, theology, patristics, and Church history. You certainly are not going to convert anyone on this forum.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 03, 2010, 12:19:55 AM
It does NOT say that only scripture is the Word of God.

True, but why should I look elsewhere for the Word of God when it says its able to make me complete, thoroughly equipped?

IN other words, if I sit at the banquet, fully satisfied, should I go off into the desert in search of more food? Of course not.

BUT another scripture denies God's word is channeled through the church...

NKJ  1 Corinthians 14:36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

God spoke through the apostles, not the church:

 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
 (Heb 2:3-4 NKJ)


If God were speaking though someone in particular, they would manifest the same miraculous signs the apostles and Christ did.

No signs...no successors to the apostles...no word of God being delivered:

NKJ  Jude 1:3 contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. (Jud 1:3 NKJ)

There aren't multiple deliveries...it was already delivered, "once" and then it was up to us to contend for that truth.

Not invent novel truths as the centuries came and went.





Look at it this way, Let's say I know very little of Carpentry,and I get a phone call from a major Hardware store,and they told me that I have won $20,000 worth of tools for Carpentry, you could say I was THOROUGHLY FURNISHED for any carpentry job I could ever do,but my with my in-experience of carpentry and woodworking would prevent me from doing a professional job,it is the same thing with your 2 Timothy analogy!!

Good argument, but it overlooks scripture making one "complete":

 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete,
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

"may be complete" by scripture alone, without need for councils.

Recall what is written in verse 15:

15 ...the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2Ti 3:15 NKJ)

The Holy Scriptures are ABLE to make wise unto salvation...provided its testimony about Jesus being the Christ, the Son of God, is believed.

There again the sufficiency of scripture is taught, in Christ.





Of course scripture can make one wise unto salvation,and furnish one with ALL the nessessary tools for good works,but there are many who also mis-use these tools and twist scripture to their own destruction!!!

It is written:

 5 and they said to him, Behold, thou art grown old, and thy sons walk not in thy way; and now set over us a king to judge us, as also the other nations have.
 6 And the thing was evil in the eyes of Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us: and Samuel prayed to the Lord.
 7 And the Lord said to Samuel, Hear the voice of the people, in whatever they shall say to thee; for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me from reigning over them.
 (1Sa 8:5-7 LXE)

Again:

 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

How does the Spirit "bear witness?" Paul made this clear:

NKJ  Romans 9:1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit,

God prefers one on one communication to our conscience...so we know what is right and wrong.

Its not verbal, and we can "get it wrong," but when we do, we "perceive" something is amiss, and that "doubt" should compel an investigation into the Scripture of Truth, God's Holy Word.

God does not desire Kings, popes, gurus...etc etc ad nauseam, reigning over us...He is our King.


LXE  Jeremiah 24:7 And I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the Lord: and they shall be to me a people, and I will be to them a God: for they shall turn to me with all their heart. (Jer 24:7 LXE)


Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 03, 2010, 12:25:16 AM
I think the "complete" argument is weak because the verse need not be understood in the way that Alfred understands it.
Look, lets say that I have a "complete" set of tools. If you take my hammer away it is not longer complete. But giving the hammer back would make it "complete"; yet, it is not the only tool that makes the set complete. If any tool is missing, it is not complete.
The scriptures are similar. They are necessary for our faith to be complete. Yet they are not the only thing necessary for our faith to be complete. Holy Tradition and the experience of the Saints is necessary as well.
Keep this is mind,
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." - 2 Thess 2:15   
Sounds like the bible explicitly rejects the doctrine of Sola Scriptura.


Your analogy has an incompatible property, you have equipment being taken away, but that idea doesn't exist in the text, hence your analogy is nonanalogous.

Paul says Scripture equips completely, he can't be wrong about this, because that apostolic teaching is now scripture which means God also wrote it with him.

God can't be wrong, don't you agree?
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 03, 2010, 12:29:25 AM
Alfred, I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish here. Most of the people here are very well educated in the Scriptures, theology, patristics, and Church history. You certainly are not going to convert anyone on this forum.

I proselytize for Christ alone...not any church. I could care less if you remain Orthodox...or whatever...

KJV  Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Rev 3:20 KJV)

But He will never come in as long as images defile the house.


LXE  Ezekiel 8:6 And he said to me, Son of man, hast thou seen what these do? They commit great abominations here so that I should keep away from my sanctuary: and thou shalt see yet greater iniquities. (Eze 8:6 LXE)
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Thankful on September 03, 2010, 12:36:02 AM
Alfred, I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish here. Most of the people here are very well educated in the Scriptures, theology, patristics, and Church history. You certainly are not going to convert anyone on this forum.

Indeed! Speaking for myself, as one not "well educated in the Scriptures, theology, patristics and Church history" (but who's learning), I would say that my faith in holy Orthodoxy has strengthened -- not diminished -- through these discussions with Alfred.  My passion for God and understanding of Him, and relationship with Him, and thankfulness for what He's done, and my desire to "press into that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me" through repentance, etc. are all growing through His established church. No more individual interpretations confusing everything with the myriads of opinion.  Glory to God for all things!  
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 03, 2010, 12:49:31 AM
Alfred, I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish here. Most of the people here are very well educated in the Scriptures, theology, patristics, and Church history. You certainly are not going to convert anyone on this forum.

Indeed! Speaking for myself, as one not "well educated in the Scriptures, theology, patristics and Church history" (but who's learning), I would say that my faith in holy Orthodoxy has strengthened -- not diminished -- through these discussions with Alfred.  My passion for God and understanding of Him, and relationship with Him, and thankfulness for what He's done, and my desire to "press into that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me" through repentance, etc. are all growing through His established church. No more individual interpretations confusing everything with the myriads of opinion.  Glory to God for all things!  

My exegesis is the antithesis of confused, you should read it again.

Its much easier learning what God has to say in the Scripture, than listening to the often conflicting statements of the "fathers", who, by the way, never cite each other or any "reverend" as their authority...they cite scripture, or a universal interpretation of scripture, as their authority.

Much easier to let God instruct you via the scripture.

Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Thankful on September 03, 2010, 01:02:47 AM
My exegesis is the antithesis of confused, you should read it again.

 :laugh:

You make God too difficult to know, Alfred. With you it's all about whether or not I can wrap my head around the words you are saying. I have to wade through pages and pages of text. Christ is not text -- he's a living, breathing person, whose "body" is the Church (also a living, breathing entity).  You don't seem to understand the simple equations of Christ = The Word (you speak as if text on a page is His Word), and The Church, Holy & Undivided = His Body. It's simple.  You make it too hard.    

Within this Church, His Body, He's right there, His way, all the time. We abide; He abides.  His Ark is a safe place -- it didn't crash in the first centuries as some suppose.  He is with us always, even unto the end of the age.  

God's best to you, Alfred.  
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: PeterTheAleut on September 03, 2010, 01:19:35 AM
I think the "complete" argument is weak because the verse need not be understood in the way that Alfred understands it.
Look, lets say that I have a "complete" set of tools. If you take my hammer away it is not longer complete. But giving the hammer back would make it "complete"; yet, it is not the only tool that makes the set complete. If any tool is missing, it is not complete.
The scriptures are similar. They are necessary for our faith to be complete. Yet they are not the only thing necessary for our faith to be complete. Holy Tradition and the experience of the Saints is necessary as well.
Keep this is mind,
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." - 2 Thess 2:15   
Sounds like the bible explicitly rejects the doctrine of Sola Scriptura.


Your analogy has an incompatible property, you have equipment being taken away, but that idea doesn't exist in the text, hence your analogy is nonanalogous.

Paul says Scripture equips completely, he can't be wrong about this, because that apostolic teaching is now scripture which means God also wrote it with him.

God can't be wrong, ...
But you can.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: recent convert on September 03, 2010, 02:28:42 AM
Again the preaching in the tradition of man is given to us divorced from holy tradition by inflating an aspect of heavenly worship within holy tradition counter to its meaning reduced to legalistic, justification of human reasoning. Case in point, "the cloud of witnesses" in Hebrews 12:1 are reduced by individualist rationalization to an obituary listing by opinion that replaces their role within the scripture since it is their witness that assists us to "lay aside every weight and sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us.looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith..." (Hebrews 12:1-2 in part).

The tradition of man being preached to us keeps boasting in the scripture that we do not follow scripture which is false and refernces to Calvin for wisdom are poison to us. To expand on the cloud of witness idea, if I was an Ethiopian Orthodox, this concept would be easily Biblically illustrated to me on the basis that the book of Enoch which is in the canon of their church states, "...I saw the habitations and couches of the saints. There my eyes beheld their habitations with the angels, and their couches with the holy ones. They were entreating, supplicating, & praying for the sons of men.." (enoch 39:4). This is the understanding we see within the letter of Hebrews and the roll call given by St. Paul (which includes Enoch) in Hebrews 11 of the faithful witnesses in which the point culminates in Hebrews 12:1. The concept of the many habitations seems most similar to what the Lord says, "In My Father's house are many mansions..."in John 14:2.

Why Enoch is not universal canon, I do not know (it was lost for over 1000 years in many areas) but it was written before & attests to the revelation of the Son of God in many areas & clearly evident within holy tradtion & such attestation expressed in liturgical worship centuries prior to the codification of canon beats guess work of the apostolic faith expressed by a tradtion of man.

A self contradiction, decrying the "tradition of man" you bind yourself to Orthodox tradition, which realized its defects and sought to stabilize itself in the "consensus of the fathers."

Sola scriptura is the antidote for relying upon "the tradition of man," for the Bible is written by God.


.



So the same book that St. Jude quotes from in his epistle as scripture is a tradition of man. Why refer anywhere else to scripture & source other than your postings?

You assume he quotes Enoch, both could just as likely be citing the same tradition that is unknown today.

BUT lets assume you are correct, does it follow the book should be canon?

Paul quotes two "poets", Epimenides the Cretan (c. 600 B.C.) "For in thee we live and move and have our being” and Phainomena  a Cilician Aratus (born 310 B.C.) about Zeus: "for we are truly his offspring.”  

KJV  Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. (Act 17:28 KJV)  

Are these are to be made canon? Of course not, therefore neither should Enoch. The content of the book clearly conflicts with NT teaching.


 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isa 8:20 NKJ)
U
Well there are different ways in which the Lord, St. Paul or writers in the Old Testament quoted and sometimes from outside the known canon. For ex. Joshua 10:13 (KJV), "And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher?..." By your logic I guess the writer of Joshua is being unscriptural & perhaps needs to consult you? I mean where is the book of Jasher to be found? You tell me that St. Jude is not quoting from Enoch? My 1st RSV Bible given to me in elementary Methodist Sunday school says otherwise. You say there is no revelation in Enoch that was written prior to the NT even though linkage was discovered between the scriptures?

For ex.
Revelation 20:11-13,15: "I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it,...and I saw the dead small & great, standing before the throne; and the books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged out of these things that were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the deadwhich were in it, and death & hell delivered up the dead which were in them...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Enoch 42:3, "He sat upon the throne of his glory, while the book of the living was opened in his presence, and while all the powers which were above the heavens sttod around & before him."

Enoch 50:1-2, "In those days shall the earth deliver up from her womb, and hell dekiver up from hers, that which is received, and destruction shall restore that which it owes. He shall select the righteous & holy from among them."

Enoch 54:12, "In those days shall the mouth of hell be opened, into which they shall be immerged; hell shall destroy & swallow up sinners from the face of the elect."

REvelation 22:1, "I saw a new heaven & a new earth, for the first heaven & the first earth were passed away."

Enoch 92:17, "The former heaven shall depart & pass away, a new heaven shall appear."

I cannot see how there is no progressive revelation from this work to the NT, especially to St. John the apostle who testifies to so much that is not recorded re the Lord (per John 21:25). In the 2nd epistle of John (vs. 12), " Having many things to write to unto you, I would not write with paper & ink.." In the 3rd epistle of John (vs.13), " I had many things to write, but I will not with ink & pen write unto thee:"

Most of us here have experienced the approach you give us in claiming what are tradtions of men vs. holy tradtition with the standard, "that's not in the Bible" text proof approach. Those who are unaware of Orthodox tradtion often righteously follow Christ guided by the Holy Spirit & reading the Bible. Perhaps more could perhaps be done by the Orthodox Church to evangelize in the west (I am deficient in this so I do not want to hypocritically criticise the church). But I have no idea of what you preach to us.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: genesisone on September 03, 2010, 08:04:00 AM

 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete,
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

"may be complete" by scripture alone, without need for councils.

Recall what is written in verse 15:

15 ...the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2Ti 3:15 NKJ)

The Holy Scriptures are ABLE to make wise unto salvation...provided its testimony about Jesus being the Christ, the Son of God, is believed.

There again the sufficiency of scripture is taught, in Christ.
Alfred, you're still quoting 2 Timothy 3:16-17, and not only that but here you've unhooked the last part of verse 15 from the part about which I've been asking. What are the Holy Scriptures that Timothy would have known from childhood?
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 03, 2010, 08:10:43 AM
Again the preaching in the tradition of man is given to us divorced from holy tradition by inflating an aspect of heavenly worship within holy tradition counter to its meaning reduced to legalistic, justification of human reasoning. Case in point, "the cloud of witnesses" in Hebrews 12:1 are reduced by individualist rationalization to an obituary listing by opinion that replaces their role within the scripture since it is their witness that assists us to "lay aside every weight and sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us.looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith..." (Hebrews 12:1-2 in part).

The tradition of man being preached to us keeps boasting in the scripture that we do not follow scripture which is false and refernces to Calvin for wisdom are poison to us. To expand on the cloud of witness idea, if I was an Ethiopian Orthodox, this concept would be easily Biblically illustrated to me on the basis that the book of Enoch which is in the canon of their church states, "...I saw the habitations and couches of the saints. There my eyes beheld their habitations with the angels, and their couches with the holy ones. They were entreating, supplicating, & praying for the sons of men.." (enoch 39:4). This is the understanding we see within the letter of Hebrews and the roll call given by St. Paul (which includes Enoch) in Hebrews 11 of the faithful witnesses in which the point culminates in Hebrews 12:1. The concept of the many habitations seems most similar to what the Lord says, "In My Father's house are many mansions..."in John 14:2.

Why Enoch is not universal canon, I do not know (it was lost for over 1000 years in many areas) but it was written before & attests to the revelation of the Son of God in many areas & clearly evident within holy tradtion & such attestation expressed in liturgical worship centuries prior to the codification of canon beats guess work of the apostolic faith expressed by a tradtion of man.

A self contradiction, decrying the "tradition of man" you bind yourself to Orthodox tradition, which realized its defects and sought to stabilize itself in the "consensus of the fathers."

Sola scriptura is the antidote for relying upon "the tradition of man," for the Bible is written by God.


.



So the same book that St. Jude quotes from in his epistle as scripture is a tradition of man. Why refer anywhere else to scripture & source other than your postings?

You assume he quotes Enoch, both could just as likely be citing the same tradition that is unknown today.

BUT lets assume you are correct, does it follow the book should be canon?

Paul quotes two "poets", Epimenides the Cretan (c. 600 B.C.) "For in thee we live and move and have our being” and Phainomena  a Cilician Aratus (born 310 B.C.) about Zeus: "for we are truly his offspring.”  

KJV  Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. (Act 17:28 KJV)  

Are these are to be made canon? Of course not, therefore neither should Enoch. The content of the book clearly conflicts with NT teaching.


 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isa 8:20 NKJ)
U
Well there are different ways in which the Lord, St. Paul or writers in the Old Testament quoted and sometimes from outside the known canon. For ex. Joshua 10:13 (KJV), "And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher?..." By your logic I guess the writer of Joshua is being unscriptural & perhaps needs to consult you? I mean where is the book of Jasher to be found? You tell me that St. Jude is not quoting from Enoch? My 1st RSV Bible given to me in elementary Methodist Sunday school says otherwise. You say there is no revelation in Enoch that was written prior to the NT even though linkage was discovered between the scriptures?

For ex.
Revelation 20:11-13,15: "I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it,...and I saw the dead small & great, standing before the throne; and the books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged out of these things that were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the deadwhich were in it, and death & hell delivered up the dead which were in them...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Enoch 42:3, "He sat upon the throne of his glory, while the book of the living was opened in his presence, and while all the powers which were above the heavens sttod around & before him."

Enoch 50:1-2, "In those days shall the earth deliver up from her womb, and hell dekiver up from hers, that which is received, and destruction shall restore that which it owes. He shall select the righteous & holy from among them."

Enoch 54:12, "In those days shall the mouth of hell be opened, into which they shall be immerged; hell shall destroy & swallow up sinners from the face of the elect."

REvelation 22:1, "I saw a new heaven & a new earth, for the first heaven & the first earth were passed away."

Enoch 92:17, "The former heaven shall depart & pass away, a new heaven shall appear."

I cannot see how there is no progressive revelation from this work to the NT, especially to St. John the apostle who testifies to so much that is not recorded re the Lord (per John 21:25). In the 2nd epistle of John (vs. 12), " Having many things to write to unto you, I would not write with paper & ink.." In the 3rd epistle of John (vs.13), " I had many things to write, but I will not with ink & pen write unto thee:"

Most of us here have experienced the approach you give us in claiming what are tradtions of men vs. holy tradtition with the standard, "that's not in the Bible" text proof approach. Those who are unaware of Orthodox tradtion often righteously follow Christ guided by the Holy Spirit & reading the Bible. Perhaps more could perhaps be done by the Orthodox Church to evangelize in the west (I am deficient in this so I do not want to hypocritically criticise the church). But I have no idea of what you preach to us.


Not unscriptural as reference to information is not claiming a teaching based on it is inerrant word of God.

Moreover, simply lacking the book of Jasher doesn't prove God and Paul wrong, both say scripture is ABLE to make wise unto salvation

The Greek preposition σοφίσαι εἰς σωτηρίαν (2Ti 3:15 STE) is "eis",  wise INTO salvation, not wise up to the door of salvation only.

The text specifies "through faith which is in Christ Jesus" thus identifying the "bare minimum of wisdom required to enter salvation," that one accept scripture's testimony Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God:

 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Joh 20:31 NKJ)


I don't argue against all other books or tradition, these certainly can aid one's obtaining the correct answers. I unequivocally affirm scripture is ABLE to make wise INTO salvation, because God and Paul say so.


It is impossible you prove them wrong.


AND similarities between Bible books and non canonical books prove nothing, just as the similar rectangular shape of a car and similar materials doesn't prove its a child of the Empire State Building, or eyes, ears, nose and mouth men come from apes, or horses as our blood is closer to that of horses.

Therefore the missing book of Jasher, whose importance was likely was exhausted in the biblical reference, is immaterial.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 03, 2010, 08:16:20 AM

 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete,
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

"may be complete" by scripture alone, without need for councils.

Recall what is written in verse 15:

15 ...the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2Ti 3:15 NKJ)

The Holy Scriptures are ABLE to make wise unto salvation...provided its testimony about Jesus being the Christ, the Son of God, is believed.

There again the sufficiency of scripture is taught, in Christ.
Alfred, you're still quoting 2 Timothy 3:16-17, and not only that but here you've unhooked the last part of verse 15 from the part about which I've been asking. What are the Holy Scriptures that Timothy would have known from childhood?

The old testament, which makes Paul's statement even more sure. As the Old Testament Timothy knew as a child is able to make wise unto salvation, how much more is that true now that we have the Old Testament and the New Testament?

Contrary to the speculation of some, the addition of the NT doesn't indicate the OT was insufficient, just as the serving of more food at the end of a feast doesn't indicate the guests were starving to death.

NKJ  Isaiah 55:1 "Ho! Everyone who thirsts, Come to the waters; And you who have no money, Come, buy and eat. Yes, come, buy wine and milk Without money and without price.
 2 Why do you spend money for what is not bread, And your wages for what does not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good, And let your soul delight itself in abundance.
 3 Incline your ear, and come to Me. Hear, and your soul shall live;
 (Isa 55:1-3 NKJ)
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: jnorm888 on September 03, 2010, 10:49:53 AM
It does NOT say that only scripture is the Word of God.

True, but why should I look elsewhere for the Word of God when it says its able to make me complete, thoroughly equipped?

IN other words, if I sit at the banquet, fully satisfied, should I go off into the desert in search of more food? Of course not.

BUT another scripture denies God's word is channeled through the church...

NKJ  1 Corinthians 14:36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

God spoke through the apostles, not the church:

 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
 (Heb 2:3-4 NKJ)


If God were speaking though someone in particular, they would manifest the same miraculous signs the apostles and Christ did.

No signs...no successors to the apostles...no word of God being delivered:

NKJ  Jude 1:3 contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. (Jud 1:3 NKJ)

There aren't multiple deliveries...it was already delivered, "once" and then it was up to us to contend for that truth.

Not invent novel truths as the centuries came and went.





Look at it this way, Let's say I know very little of Carpentry,and I get a phone call from a major Hardware store,and they told me that I have won $20,000 worth of tools for Carpentry, you could say I was THOROUGHLY FURNISHED for any carpentry job I could ever do,but my with my in-experience of carpentry and woodworking would prevent me from doing a professional job,it is the same thing with your 2 Timothy analogy!!

Good argument, but it overlooks scripture making one "complete":

 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete,
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

"may be complete" by scripture alone, without need for councils.

Recall what is written in verse 15:

15 ...the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2Ti 3:15 NKJ)

The Holy Scriptures are ABLE to make wise unto salvation...provided its testimony about Jesus being the Christ, the Son of God, is believed.

There again the sufficiency of scripture is taught, in Christ.





Of course scripture can make one wise unto salvation,and furnish one with ALL the nessessary tools for good works,but there are many who also mis-use these tools and twist scripture to their own destruction!!!

It is written:

 5 and they said to him, Behold, thou art grown old, and thy sons walk not in thy way; and now set over us a king to judge us, as also the other nations have.
 6 And the thing was evil in the eyes of Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us: and Samuel prayed to the Lord.
 7 And the Lord said to Samuel, Hear the voice of the people, in whatever they shall say to thee; for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me from reigning over them.
 (1Sa 8:5-7 LXE)

Again:

 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

How does the Spirit "bear witness?" Paul made this clear:

NKJ  Romans 9:1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit,

God prefers one on one communication to our conscience...so we know what is right and wrong.

Its not verbal, and we can "get it wrong," but when we do, we "perceive" something is amiss, and that "doubt" should compel an investigation into the Scripture of Truth, God's Holy Word.

God does not desire Kings, popes, gurus...etc etc ad nauseam, reigning over us...He is our King.


LXE  Jeremiah 24:7 And I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the Lord: and they shall be to me a people, and I will be to them a God: for they shall turn to me with all their heart. (Jer 24:7 LXE)

Why do you keep refusing to check your interpretations with the church fathers and early christian witnesses?

You must believe that it's impossible for you to miss-read a text or something.

Do you believe your reading of Scripture to be infallible?

That's what it seems like to me.

Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: genesisone on September 03, 2010, 01:35:27 PM
Contrary to the speculation of some, the addition of the NT doesn't indicate the OT was insufficient....
Alfred, you must know that I'm certainly not in that group. I'm quite aware of Jesus' exposition of the Scriptures (i.e. OT) to Cleopas and his companion on the road to Emmaus; and of Philip's explanations to the Ethiopian on the "Jerusalem to Gaza highway". Note, though, that in both cases, the Scriptures needed to be interpreted correctly.

One could more easily make the opposite argument, that because of the OT's sufficiency, the NT is redundant if not unnecessary. Let me say quite firmly that I am NOT making that argument. I do not support it. Just making a point, that's all.

But Alfred, now consider how verse 14 of 2 Timothy 3 connects to verse 15 (emphasis mine):
Quote
14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15  and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (NKJV)

The Holy Scriptures were not the only source of learning for Timothy. In what do you suppose Paul was encouraging Timothy to continue in addition to what he knew of the Holy Scriptures?
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Papist on September 03, 2010, 01:40:08 PM
I think the "complete" argument is weak because the verse need not be understood in the way that Alfred understands it.
Look, lets say that I have a "complete" set of tools. If you take my hammer away it is not longer complete. But giving the hammer back would make it "complete"; yet, it is not the only tool that makes the set complete. If any tool is missing, it is not complete.
The scriptures are similar. They are necessary for our faith to be complete. Yet they are not the only thing necessary for our faith to be complete. Holy Tradition and the experience of the Saints is necessary as well.
Keep this is mind,
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." - 2 Thess 2:15   
Sounds like the bible explicitly rejects the doctrine of Sola Scriptura.


Your analogy has an incompatible property, you have equipment being taken away, but that idea doesn't exist in the text, hence your analogy is nonanalogous.

Paul says Scripture equips completely, he can't be wrong about this, because that apostolic teaching is now scripture which means God also wrote it with him.

God can't be wrong, don't you agree?
God can't be wrong, but Alfred certainly is.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Papist on September 03, 2010, 01:41:46 PM
Hey Alfred,

""Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." - 2 Thess 2:15
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: bogdan on September 03, 2010, 01:54:09 PM
I'll answer you, but first tell me this: where does the New Testament claim to be the sole, all-encompassing, and comprehensive source of history and doctrine from the Apostolic age, describing in indisputable detail every single important event or doctrinal detail? That is the crux of our problem. Until you can answer that, your arguments from silence are pointless, as you have not established that your position is anything more than a presupposition.

Because if the New Testament is not the sole, all-encompassing, comprehensive source for all things that you seem to imply that it is, the answer doesn't matter. If there is no record of that happening, we can't say if it did or not. We certainly cannot rule it out. If there is a record of it happening, you lose automatically.

In other words, first prove that the answer to the question is worth a hill of beans, and then I'll answer it. If you can't, then I won't.

I never said it did, BUT it claims to have everything necessary for my being completely equipped:

 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 (2Ti 3:15-1 NKJ)

In context it may be Paul says this about the Old Testament only. Therefore some argue Paul must be wrong as God added the New Testament later.

As God allowed Paul's words here, to become scripture, He set His seal upon it that He agrees with Paul 100%, as it became scripture, its God writing it too.

BUT God and Paul aren't wrong, consider this analogy:

It does not prove the guests of a banquet were starving to death, when the host offers them more food near its end.

The Old Testament is able to make wise unto salvation, therefore, how much more is Scripture able to completely equip for every good work, including teaching others true doctrine, now that the New Testament has been added!

Now answer my question.

(I think PeterTheAleut gave a fine response, but for my own part—)

No, actually it doesn't claim that. You are once again defaulting to reading the words through your bias.

The text does say that Scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction. And because of that doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction, he will be equipped.

The text does not say that the Scripture itself equips people. Rather they are equipped by these things that are derived from scripture. (We could get into a whole discussion about this by itself, but it's beside the point.)

My point is: even in this verse, which stands at the very pinnacle of the Sola Scriptura defense, the Bible does not claim to be all-sufficient or all-equipping. The Bible does not claim sole authority for itself, as you yourself admitted. Nor does it claim that every single doctrine and practice must flow from its pages. Therefore, whether prayers to the saints are in the Bible or not—it doesn't matter—it has zero bearing on the legitimacy of such a practice, because the Bible is not intrinsically all-encompassing and all-sufficient. If it was, it would say so.

Incorrect, the text says God wrote scripture IN ORDER THAT (hina) the man of God be complete.

You allege God failed in His mission.

I think that an odd place for a Christian to be.

No, it does not say that, Alfred. It says:

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

It is utterly nonsensical to interpret it the way you do. A man of God is not complete simply because he reads the Bible. A man of God is complete because his life is conformed to God's will. He conforms to God's will because he has learned doctrine, been reproofed, been corrected, and been instructed in righteousness. And Scripture is a profitable means to those ends, though it nowhere says it is the sole means.

As for God's failing his mission, I stand firmly on the truth that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church. :)

Its nonsense to believe what it says?


 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
     ἵνα ἄρτιος ᾖ ὁ τοῦ θεοῦ ἄνθρωπος πρὸς πᾶν ἔργον ἀγαθὸν ἐξηρτισμένος
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

HINA, lit. "in order that"; "so that"

NAU  2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

NIB  2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

All scripture is given....in order that the man of God may thoroughly equipped.


That's what it says, literally.




You still have not proven scripture's exclusivity, however.

You keep pointing to this verse, but it only means what you want it mean if it is read through your presuppositions. You are inferring that, because scripture helps us to be fully equipped, scripture is exclusive in that regard. But it doesn't say that, sorry.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: bogdan on September 03, 2010, 02:04:16 PM
I proselytize for Christ alone...not any church. I could care less if you remain Orthodox...or whatever...

You do realize Christ established a Church, right? It's not just "me and Jesus", despite what many demonic "gospel" tracts say.

The Church is the pillar and ground of truth, a title the Bible doesn't even claim for itself.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: recent convert on September 03, 2010, 02:10:27 PM
Again the preaching in the tradition of man is given to us divorced from holy tradition by inflating an aspect of heavenly worship within holy tradition counter to its meaning reduced to legalistic, justification of human reasoning. Case in point, "the cloud of witnesses" in Hebrews 12:1 are reduced by individualist rationalization to an obituary listing by opinion that replaces their role within the scripture since it is their witness that assists us to "lay aside every weight and sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us.looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith..." (Hebrews 12:1-2 in part).

The tradition of man being preached to us keeps boasting in the scripture that we do not follow scripture which is false and refernces to Calvin for wisdom are poison to us. To expand on the cloud of witness idea, if I was an Ethiopian Orthodox, this concept would be easily Biblically illustrated to me on the basis that the book of Enoch which is in the canon of their church states, "...I saw the habitations and couches of the saints. There my eyes beheld their habitations with the angels, and their couches with the holy ones. They were entreating, supplicating, & praying for the sons of men.." (enoch 39:4). This is the understanding we see within the letter of Hebrews and the roll call given by St. Paul (which includes Enoch) in Hebrews 11 of the faithful witnesses in which the point culminates in Hebrews 12:1. The concept of the many habitations seems most similar to what the Lord says, "In My Father's house are many mansions..."in John 14:2.

Why Enoch is not universal canon, I do not know (it was lost for over 1000 years in many areas) but it was written before & attests to the revelation of the Son of God in many areas & clearly evident within holy tradtion & such attestation expressed in liturgical worship centuries prior to the codification of canon beats guess work of the apostolic faith expressed by a tradtion of man.

A self contradiction, decrying the "tradition of man" you bind yourself to Orthodox tradition, which realized its defects and sought to stabilize itself in the "consensus of the fathers."

Sola scriptura is the antidote for relying upon "the tradition of man," for the Bible is written by God.


.



So the same book that St. Jude quotes from in his epistle as scripture is a tradition of man. Why refer anywhere else to scripture & source other than your postings?

You assume he quotes Enoch, both could just as likely be citing the same tradition that is unknown today.

BUT lets assume you are correct, does it follow the book should be canon?

Paul quotes two "poets", Epimenides the Cretan (c. 600 B.C.) "For in thee we live and move and have our being” and Phainomena  a Cilician Aratus (born 310 B.C.) about Zeus: "for we are truly his offspring.”  

KJV  Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. (Act 17:28 KJV)  

Are these are to be made canon? Of course not, therefore neither should Enoch. The content of the book clearly conflicts with NT teaching.


 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isa 8:20 NKJ)
U
Well there are different ways in which the Lord, St. Paul or writers in the Old Testament quoted and sometimes from outside the known canon. For ex. Joshua 10:13 (KJV), "And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher?..." By your logic I guess the writer of Joshua is being unscriptural & perhaps needs to consult you? I mean where is the book of Jasher to be found? You tell me that St. Jude is not quoting from Enoch? My 1st RSV Bible given to me in elementary Methodist Sunday school says otherwise. You say there is no revelation in Enoch that was written prior to the NT even though linkage was discovered between the scriptures?

For ex.
Revelation 20:11-13,15: "I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it,...and I saw the dead small & great, standing before the throne; and the books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged out of these things that were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the deadwhich were in it, and death & hell delivered up the dead which were in them...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Enoch 42:3, "He sat upon the throne of his glory, while the book of the living was opened in his presence, and while all the powers which were above the heavens sttod around & before him."

Enoch 50:1-2, "In those days shall the earth deliver up from her womb, and hell dekiver up from hers, that which is received, and destruction shall restore that which it owes. He shall select the righteous & holy from among them."

Enoch 54:12, "In those days shall the mouth of hell be opened, into which they shall be immerged; hell shall destroy & swallow up sinners from the face of the elect."

REvelation 22:1, "I saw a new heaven & a new earth, for the first heaven & the first earth were passed away."

Enoch 92:17, "The former heaven shall depart & pass away, a new heaven shall appear."

I cannot see how there is no progressive revelation from this work to the NT, especially to St. John the apostle who testifies to so much that is not recorded re the Lord (per John 21:25). In the 2nd epistle of John (vs. 12), " Having many things to write to unto you, I would not write with paper & ink.." In the 3rd epistle of John (vs.13), " I had many things to write, but I will not with ink & pen write unto thee:"

Most of us here have experienced the approach you give us in claiming what are tradtions of men vs. holy tradtition with the standard, "that's not in the Bible" text proof approach. Those who are unaware of Orthodox tradtion often righteously follow Christ guided by the Holy Spirit & reading the Bible. Perhaps more could perhaps be done by the Orthodox Church to evangelize in the west (I am deficient in this so I do not want to hypocritically criticise the church). But I have no idea of what you preach to us.


Not unscriptural as reference to information is not claiming a teaching based on it is inerrant word of God.

Moreover, simply lacking the book of Jasher doesn't prove God and Paul wrong, both say scripture is ABLE to make wise unto salvation

The Greek preposition σοφίσαι εἰς σωτηρίαν (2Ti 3:15 STE) is "eis",  wise INTO salvation, not wise up to the door of salvation only.

The text specifies "through faith which is in Christ Jesus" thus identifying the "bare minimum of wisdom required to enter salvation," that one accept scripture's testimony Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God:

 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Joh 20:31 NKJ)


I don't argue against all other books or tradition, these certainly can aid one's obtaining the correct answers. I unequivocally affirm scripture is ABLE to make wise INTO salvation, because God and Paul say so.


It is impossible you prove them wrong.


AND similarities between Bible books and non canonical books prove nothing, just as the similar rectangular shape of a car and similar materials doesn't prove its a child of the Empire State Building, or eyes, ears, nose and mouth men come from apes, or horses as our blood is closer to that of horses.

Therefore the missing book of Jasher, whose importance was likely was exhausted in the biblical reference, is immaterial.

Your whole contention of "proving God or Paul" wrong is impossible since my point is to argue against what you preach not God's revelation to us preserved in the holy church. We all know Jesus Christ is Lord & Savior, the primacy of faith in the Gospels, we state our faith as noted in the Nicene Creed, we know the 2 great commands, we know the 10 commandments, the Lord's prayer, we are called to fast, pray, & give alms, to confess individually & to call our priest as our witness, to partake of the Eucharist, to pray the Lord of the harvest & evangelize if God deems us worthy. These are the core basics of our faith easily found in the Holy Bible you utilize to preach foreign doctrine us. You try to argue re the icons, or belief that the Theokos is ever virgin etc. are not "Biblical" according to your tradition or that aspects of revelation are not in conformity to God's revelation as given in the Holy Bible because basically you say so. It is the core basics of our living faith that will, but do not yet, lead to what St. Paul states in Ephesians 2:8-10 re salvation by grace, not by works but for good works. St. Paul also tells us, "I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." (Phillipians 3:14). If you cannot see these as what are the Orthodox faith then you are clearly outside the church & preach foreign doctrine to us; a heretic (not an understanding I automatically have towards non Orthodox Christians).
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 04, 2010, 05:39:56 AM


Not unscriptural as reference to information is not claiming a teaching based on it is inerrant word of God.

Moreover, simply lacking the book of Jasher doesn't prove God and Paul wrong, both say scripture is ABLE to make wise unto salvation

The Greek preposition σοφίσαι εἰς σωτηρίαν (2Ti 3:15 STE) is "eis",  wise INTO salvation, not wise up to the door of salvation only.

The text specifies "through faith which is in Christ Jesus" thus identifying the "bare minimum of wisdom required to enter salvation," that one accept scripture's testimony Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God:

 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Joh 20:31 NKJ)


I don't argue against all other books or tradition, these certainly can aid one's obtaining the correct answers. I unequivocally affirm scripture is ABLE to make wise INTO salvation, because God and Paul say so.


It is impossible you prove them wrong.


AND similarities between Bible books and non canonical books prove nothing, just as the similar rectangular shape of a car and similar materials doesn't prove its a child of the Empire State Building, or eyes, ears, nose and mouth men come from apes, or horses as our blood is closer to that of horses.

Therefore the missing book of Jasher, whose importance was likely was exhausted in the biblical reference, is immaterial.

Your whole contention of "proving God or Paul" wrong is impossible since my point is to argue against what you preach not God's revelation to us preserved in the holy church. We all know Jesus Christ is Lord & Savior, the primacy of faith in the Gospels, we state our faith as noted in the Nicene Creed, we know the 2 great commands, we know the 10 commandments, the Lord's prayer, we are called to fast, pray, & give alms, to confess individually & to call our priest as our witness, to partake of the Eucharist, to pray the Lord of the harvest & evangelize if God deems us worthy. These are the core basics of our faith easily found in the Holy Bible you utilize to preach foreign doctrine us. You try to argue re the icons, or belief that the Theokos is ever virgin etc. are not "Biblical" according to your tradition or that aspects of revelation are not in conformity to God's revelation as given in the Holy Bible because basically you say so. It is the core basics of our living faith that will, but do not yet, lead to what St. Paul states in Ephesians 2:8-10 re salvation by grace, not by works but for good works. St. Paul also tells us, "I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." (Phillipians 3:14). If you cannot see these as what are the Orthodox faith then you are clearly outside the church & preach foreign doctrine to us; a heretic (not an understanding I automatically have towards non Orthodox Christians).

But you are arguing against Paul who said God inspired scripture in order that we be fully equipped for every good work:

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine...
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
(2Ti 3:16-1 NKJ)

Knowing Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour is all that is required by God, and that PETRA He reveals to every one of His children who will be saved in this life, He puts it in their mouth and heart and then they confess it publicly before the eyes of angels and men, and are saved:

8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart " (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
 (Rom 10:8-11 NKJ)

You contradict Paul's apostolic oral tradition that all who confess Christ is LORD publicly WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME...

You say all who reject the novelties Christians added to the apostolic faith centuries later, like icons, will be put to shame.

That's wrong according to the scripture.

You argument is not with against me, its against the Word of God, naturally interpreted.

Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 04, 2010, 05:48:24 AM
I proselytize for Christ alone...not any church. I could care less if you remain Orthodox...or whatever...

You do realize Christ established a Church, right? It's not just "me and Jesus", despite what many demonic "gospel" tracts say.

The Church is the pillar and ground of truth, a title the Bible doesn't even claim for itself.

You are misinterpreting how Paul meant that...the church does not generate, rather its faithful living the truth proves its validity in the eyes of observers:

The "house of God" is an allusion to Jacob's experience:
 16 And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and said, The Lord is in this place, and I knew it not.
 17 And he was afraid, and said, How fearful is this place! this is none other than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.
 (Gen 28:16-17 LXE)


The "house of God" is the "gate of heaven" where God revealed Himself. Hence Paul insists Timothy show reverent fear (as Jacob did):  

 
15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

NKJ  1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
 (1Ti 3:15-1 NKJ)


God revealed Himself to the Church. Its a one time delivery (Jude 1:3)

The church upholds (pillar) and grounds this--- "the truth"(hē alētheia) of the gospel by its faithful obedience to the Gospel of Christ.  Then all observers know the revelation is true.
.  In the original Greek there aren't chapter & verse numbers. 1 Tim 4:1 is continuing the theme of 1 Tim 3:16....its a contrast between the true church, and what will occur later as deceiving spirits seduce people away from the simplicity of Christ...unto idols.

 

(a) One of Paul’s most distinctive uses of alētheia within the NT (if the Pastorals are included) is his use of the phrase “the truth” (hē alētheia) to characterize the gospel itself. Although this is most prominent in the Pastorals (see (g) below) this meaning already occurs in Gal. and perhaps in 2 Thess. The actual situation in Gal., rather than considerations about Gk. or Heb. background, makes this correlation intelligible. In Gal. 2:5 Paul declares that what is at issue in his conflict with the Judaizers is quite literally “the truth of the gospel”. In Paul’s judgment, enticement to compromise the gospel is an enticement to compromise the truth, and vice versa. To give way is deny the truth, both in the sense of his own integrity and in the sense of the actual situation in salvation-history as it now is. Hence by Gal. 5:7 “the truth” has become synonymous with the gospel itself: “What hindered you from obeying the truth?” J. Murphy-O’Connor rightly comments “No single term could better mark the contrast between the reality of the Gospel and the ineffectiveness of the Law” (Paul and Qumran, 195).  

 

Brown, C. (1986). Vol. 3: New international dictionary of New Testament theology (884). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House.  



 

Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: PeterTheAleut on September 04, 2010, 05:55:56 AM


Not unscriptural as reference to information is not claiming a teaching based on it is inerrant word of God.

Moreover, simply lacking the book of Jasher doesn't prove God and Paul wrong, both say scripture is ABLE to make wise unto salvation

The Greek preposition σοφίσαι εἰς σωτηρίαν (2Ti 3:15 STE) is "eis",  wise INTO salvation, not wise up to the door of salvation only.

The text specifies "through faith which is in Christ Jesus" thus identifying the "bare minimum of wisdom required to enter salvation," that one accept scripture's testimony Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God:

 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Joh 20:31 NKJ)


I don't argue against all other books or tradition, these certainly can aid one's obtaining the correct answers. I unequivocally affirm scripture is ABLE to make wise INTO salvation, because God and Paul say so.


It is impossible you prove them wrong.


AND similarities between Bible books and non canonical books prove nothing, just as the similar rectangular shape of a car and similar materials doesn't prove its a child of the Empire State Building, or eyes, ears, nose and mouth men come from apes, or horses as our blood is closer to that of horses.

Therefore the missing book of Jasher, whose importance was likely was exhausted in the biblical reference, is immaterial.

Your whole contention of "proving God or Paul" wrong is impossible since my point is to argue against what you preach not God's revelation to us preserved in the holy church. We all know Jesus Christ is Lord & Savior, the primacy of faith in the Gospels, we state our faith as noted in the Nicene Creed, we know the 2 great commands, we know the 10 commandments, the Lord's prayer, we are called to fast, pray, & give alms, to confess individually & to call our priest as our witness, to partake of the Eucharist, to pray the Lord of the harvest & evangelize if God deems us worthy. These are the core basics of our faith easily found in the Holy Bible you utilize to preach foreign doctrine us. You try to argue re the icons, or belief that the Theokos is ever virgin etc. are not "Biblical" according to your tradition or that aspects of revelation are not in conformity to God's revelation as given in the Holy Bible because basically you say so. It is the core basics of our living faith that will, but do not yet, lead to what St. Paul states in Ephesians 2:8-10 re salvation by grace, not by works but for good works. St. Paul also tells us, "I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." (Phillipians 3:14). If you cannot see these as what are the Orthodox faith then you are clearly outside the church & preach foreign doctrine to us; a heretic (not an understanding I automatically have towards non Orthodox Christians).

But you are arguing against Paul who said God inspired scripture in order that we be fully equipped for every good work:
No, he's not arguing against St. Paul.  He's arguing against you.

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine...
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
(2Ti 3:16-1 NKJ)
You might want to stop trotting out that old canard, since we've already debunked your interpretation of it many times.

Knowing Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour is all that is required by God, and that PETRA He reveals to every one of His children who will be saved in this life, He puts it in their mouth and heart and then they confess it publicly before the eyes of angels and men, and are saved:

8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart " (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
 (Rom 10:8-11 NKJ)
Do you know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?  If you did, then you would do what He commands you to do.  St. Paul spoke very highly of the Church.  Why do you not follow St. Paul?

You contradict Paul's apostolic oral tradition that all who confess Christ is LORD publicly WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME...
What do you know of oral tradition?  You can't just preach sola scriptura in opposition to oral tradition, and then trot out oral tradition when it's convenient to your argument.  You need to be more consistent, lest you undermine your own reasoning.

You say all who reject the novelties Christians added to the apostolic faith centuries later, like icons, will be put to shame.
You have not yet proven that iconography was absent from the early Church.  Its mere absence from Scripture is an argument from silence, and therefore invalid as evidence.

That's wrong according to the scripture.

You argument is not with against me, its against the Word of God, naturally interpreted.
Get over yourself, Alfred. :police:  Our argument is not against the Scriptures, nor is it against the Word of God, Who is really Jesus Christ.  Our argument is against you, and you know it. >:(
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 04, 2010, 06:03:07 AM
Get over yourself, Alfred. :police:  Our argument is not against the Scriptures, nor is it against the Word of God, Who is really Jesus Christ.  Our argument is against you, and you know it. >:(

Its not me who says God inspired Scripture to make us completely equipped, its the Word of God that says it:

 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

You argue much of scripture isn't profitable for doctrine, that its incomprehensible without the consensus of the fathers weighing in, or the teaching of the Orthodox church.

But that caveat is not in Paul's words.

Show me a verse that says "Scripture is not profitable for doctrine without the Orthodox explaining it."

Then I will admit your argument is against me, not scripture.


The text says "all scripture" or "every scripture" is profitable...so the idea some of it is incomprehensible contradicts God, and Paul. If its incomprehensible, then its also unprofitable.

I don't deny there are difficult texts...but they can be understood if one applies due diligence and has the Spirit of Christ dwelling within, gently guiding into the truth granting perception as to what is correct.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: DennyB on September 04, 2010, 07:33:42 AM
Get over yourself, Alfred. :police:  Our argument is not against the Scriptures, nor is it against the Word of God, Who is really Jesus Christ.  Our argument is against you, and you know it. >:(

Its not me who says God inspired Scripture to make us completely equipped, its the Word of God that says it:

 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

You argue much of scripture isn't profitable for doctrine, that its incomprehensible without the consensus of the fathers weighing in, or the teaching of the Orthodox church.

But that caveat is not in Paul's words.

Show me a verse that says "Scripture is not profitable for doctrine without the Orthodox explaining it."

Then I will admit your argument is against me, not scripture.


The text says "all scripture" or "every scripture" is profitable...so the idea some of it is incomprehensible contradicts God, and Paul. If its incomprehensible, then its also unprofitable.

I don't deny there are difficult texts...but they can be understood if one applies due diligence and has the Spirit of Christ dwelling within, gently guiding into the truth granting perception as to what is correct.

You don't seem to understand that with your approach to the Scriptures,there is no way to tell the difference between "Personal Preference" and the unction of the Spirit. You therefore need a concensus approach,meaning as St Vincent de Lerins has said: "what has been believed everywhere,always,and by all", meaning the WHOLE church,not by just the Bishops,and clergy,but the laity together with one voice,this is the litmus for catholicity,not personal opinion!!
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Papist on September 04, 2010, 11:46:08 AM
It's interesting that Alfred won't address 2 Thess 2:15. Probably because it directly contradicts what he is saying.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: bogdan on September 04, 2010, 12:42:13 PM
Quote
You argue much of scripture isn't profitable for doctrine, that its incomprehensible without the consensus of the fathers weighing in, or the teaching of the Orthodox church.

Alfred, if the scriptures are completely comprehensible unto themselves, then why are there many different interpretations?

I can show you two people who feel deeply convicted about their beliefs about the "plain meaning" of any given verse, but have exactly the opposite belief. They both can have amazing exegesis, yet come to opposing conclusions.

The fact is, you have no objective foundation by which to judge anything. It's all about etymology, archaeology, and a feeling in your soul. Well congratulations, everyone from Jehovah's Witnesses to Quakers judge their beliefs by the same standards, and they all use more or less the same Bible.

Meanwhile, we use these things as well, but they are always held in check by the objective standard of St Vincent that DennyB mentions above. Since the Holy Spirit is not schizophrenic, he doesn't lead different people to different interpretations. Since the Church is one living organism, it is not divided against itself. And because of all that, the tradition of the Church is trustworthy. That is why the Church Herself is the pillar and ground of truth, because a faithful member of the Church cannot deviate from the very narrow path She has marked out for us, by the Spirit's universal guidance.

Meanwhile, you—sitting there with just your Bible and whatever commentaries you deem correct—are not inherently or objectively trustworthy. You're one man meandering about after feelings and "convictions", without even the ability to discern whether these "convictions" are in fact true, because you have no point of reference outside of yourself.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 04, 2010, 12:47:33 PM
LOL ... when someone replies to you WITH Scripture verses you either ignore them or assert they have misinterpreted them.  

When someone replies to you WITHOUT Scripture verses you complain that they have nothing to back up their statements.

Is the heat getting to you, Alfred? :D

Incorrect, correctly interpret scripture and I will be pleased, I promise.

30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 The place in the Scripture which he read was this:


      “ He was led as a sheep to the slaughter;
      And as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
       So He opened not His mouth.
       33 In His humiliation His justice was taken away,
      And who will declare His generation?
      For His life is taken from the earth.”

34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

Acts 8:30-38

Jehovah's Witnesses cite this precise text for why their Governing Body or Watchtower Bible & Tract Society is required, Catholics cite it to show the Catholic Magisterium is needed, now presumably you cite it to prove Orthodox novelties are required.

But that isn't what Philip said to the Eunuch, he preached Jesus to him, who TODAY is found in our Bibles.

Therefore, as Jesus is found in our Bibles today, the context proves the Bible is required.

It says nothing about Orthodoxy.

So God's words through Paul remain undiminished by your appeal to this text:


16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine...
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 (2Ti 3:16-1 NKJ)
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 04, 2010, 12:57:17 PM
Quote
You argue much of scripture isn't profitable for doctrine, that its incomprehensible without the consensus of the fathers weighing in, or the teaching of the Orthodox church.

Alfred, if the scriptures are completely comprehensible unto themselves, then why are there many different interpretations?

I can show you two people who feel deeply convicted about their beliefs about the "plain meaning" of any given verse, but have exactly the opposite belief. They both can have amazing exegesis, yet come to opposing conclusions.

The fact is, you have no objective foundation by which to judge anything. It's all about etymology, archaeology, and a feeling in your soul. Well congratulations, everyone from Jehovah's Witnesses to Quakers judge their beliefs by the same standards, and they all use more or less the same Bible.

Meanwhile, we use these things as well, but they are always held in check by the objective standard of St Vincent that DennyB mentions above. Since the Holy Spirit is not schizophrenic, he doesn't lead different people to different interpretations. Since the Church is one living organism, it is not divided against itself. And because of all that, the tradition of the Church is trustworthy. That is why the Church Herself is the pillar and ground of truth, because a faithful member of the Church cannot deviate from the very narrow path She has marked out for us, by the Spirit's universal guidance.

Meanwhile, you—sitting there with just your Bible and whatever commentaries you deem correct—are not inherently or objectively trustworthy. You're one man meandering about after feelings and "convictions", without even the ability to discern whether these "convictions" are in fact true, because you have no point of reference outside of yourself.

Your argument is "special pleading," you are holding scripture up to a standard no literature achieves. Every statement on earth, regardless how simple, has its meaning disputed...there are lots of reasons for this, sometimes its profit, sometimes its hate, but often its just human nature to get things wrong.

What should really excite you, prove to you the Bible is inspired by God and His Spirit is laboring to overcome fallen human nature, is the level of Christian agreement as to what the Bible teaches.

Fact is, if you boil off all our disagreements, we all (mainline Christendom)  agree 80% or more, as to what scripture says.

That is divine, no other literature on the planet is as diverse---given the Bible is 66 books written over 1,500 time span on three different continents by very different people in three different languages..., yet in such phenomenal agreement.

Given that reality, the agreement as to what it says is INCREDIBLE, clearly there must be a divine reason why there is this level of agreement, when any other document far less complex and ancient, results in far more disagreement.



Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: PeterTheAleut on September 04, 2010, 01:45:55 PM
Get over yourself, Alfred. :police:  Our argument is not against the Scriptures, nor is it against the Word of God, Who is really Jesus Christ.  Our argument is against you, and you know it. >:(

Its not me who says God inspired Scripture to make us completely equipped, its the Word of God that says it:

 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

You argue much of scripture isn't profitable for doctrine, that its incomprehensible without the consensus of the fathers weighing in, or the teaching of the Orthodox church.
I don't know where you're getting this information that you feel so much at liberty to plant it into our mouths, but we've been arguing the exact opposite, that Scripture IS profitable for doctrine.

But that caveat is not in Paul's words.

Show me a verse that says "Scripture is not profitable for doctrine without the Orthodox explaining it."

Then I will admit your argument is against me, not scripture.


The text says "all scripture" or "every scripture" is profitable...so the idea some of it is incomprehensible contradicts God, and Paul. If its incomprehensible, then its also unprofitable.
Apples and oranges!  Comprehensibility and profitability are two totally unrelated concepts.  I'm sure an IRS tax form is very profitable reading, even though I can't begin to comprehend what it says.

I don't deny there are difficult texts...but they can be understood if one applies due diligence and has the Spirit of Christ dwelling within, gently guiding into the truth granting perception as to what is correct.
But the dwelling of the Spirit within cannot possibly lead to such a myriad of different, often contradictory interpretations of Scripture as I see in the sola scriptura crowd if God cannot contradict Himself.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: PeterTheAleut on September 04, 2010, 01:54:38 PM
Quote
You argue much of scripture isn't profitable for doctrine, that its incomprehensible without the consensus of the fathers weighing in, or the teaching of the Orthodox church.

Alfred, if the scriptures are completely comprehensible unto themselves, then why are there many different interpretations?

I can show you two people who feel deeply convicted about their beliefs about the "plain meaning" of any given verse, but have exactly the opposite belief. They both can have amazing exegesis, yet come to opposing conclusions.

The fact is, you have no objective foundation by which to judge anything. It's all about etymology, archaeology, and a feeling in your soul. Well congratulations, everyone from Jehovah's Witnesses to Quakers judge their beliefs by the same standards, and they all use more or less the same Bible.

Meanwhile, we use these things as well, but they are always held in check by the objective standard of St Vincent that DennyB mentions above. Since the Holy Spirit is not schizophrenic, he doesn't lead different people to different interpretations. Since the Church is one living organism, it is not divided against itself. And because of all that, the tradition of the Church is trustworthy. That is why the Church Herself is the pillar and ground of truth, because a faithful member of the Church cannot deviate from the very narrow path She has marked out for us, by the Spirit's universal guidance.

Meanwhile, you—sitting there with just your Bible and whatever commentaries you deem correct—are not inherently or objectively trustworthy. You're one man meandering about after feelings and "convictions", without even the ability to discern whether these "convictions" are in fact true, because you have no point of reference outside of yourself.

Your argument is "special pleading," you are holding scripture up to a standard no literature achieves. Every statement on earth, regardless how simple, has its meaning disputed...there are lots of reasons for this, sometimes its profit, sometimes its hate, but often its just human nature to get things wrong.

What should really excite you, prove to you the Bible is inspired by God and His Spirit is laboring to overcome fallen human nature, is the level of Christian agreement as to what the Bible teaches.

Fact is, if you boil off all our disagreements, we all (mainline Christendom)  agree 80% or more, as to what scripture says.

That is divine, no other literature on the planet is as diverse---given the Bible is 66 books written over 1,500 time span on three different continents by very different people in three different languages..., yet in such phenomenal agreement.

Given that reality, the agreement as to what it says is INCREDIBLE, clearly there must be a divine reason why there is this level of agreement, when any other document far less complex and ancient, results in far more disagreement.
Yes, it's that divine-human organism St. Paul calls the pillar and ground of the truth.  Without the Church, you wouldn't have the Bible.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: TristanCross on September 04, 2010, 02:08:29 PM
I can't believe Protestants think they can win a debate on an Orthodox forum. It's just like the time I went to a Calvinist forum with a Catholic agenda.  :o
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 04, 2010, 02:45:32 PM
Get over yourself, Alfred. :police:  Our argument is not against the Scriptures, nor is it against the Word of God, Who is really Jesus Christ.  Our argument is against you, and you know it. >:(

Its not me who says God inspired Scripture to make us completely equipped, its the Word of God that says it:

 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

You argue much of scripture isn't profitable for doctrine, that its incomprehensible without the consensus of the fathers weighing in, or the teaching of the Orthodox church.
I don't know where you're getting this information that you feel so much at liberty to plant it into our mouths, but we've been arguing the exact opposite, that Scripture IS profitable for doctrine.

But that caveat is not in Paul's words.

Show me a verse that says "Scripture is not profitable for doctrine without the Orthodox explaining it."

Then I will admit your argument is against me, not scripture.


The text says "all scripture" or "every scripture" is profitable...so the idea some of it is incomprehensible contradicts God, and Paul. If its incomprehensible, then its also unprofitable.
Apples and oranges!  Comprehensibility and profitability are two totally unrelated concepts.  I'm sure an IRS tax form is very profitable reading, even though I can't begin to comprehend what it says.

I don't deny there are difficult texts...but they can be understood if one applies due diligence and has the Spirit of Christ dwelling within, gently guiding into the truth granting perception as to what is correct.
But the dwelling of the Spirit within cannot possibly lead to such a myriad of different, often contradictory interpretations of Scripture as I see in the sola scriptura crowd if God cannot contradict Himself.

Your argument evades an elegant fact, God never trusted our salvation to us:

 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
 (Rom 8:29-30 NKJ)

God puts the life giving PETRA of Christ in our hearts, and in our mouths just as He did for Simon PRWTOS:

 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
 (Mat 16:16-17 NKJ)

6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart,`Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
 7 or, "`Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart " (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 (Rom 10:6-10 NKJ)

Therefore what is required to be "wise unto salvation" must be simple, something everyone of us can "get"  without a "guru" or "someone to bring Christ down to our level"...so while there may be lots of things that are great to know, the one thing absolutely essential to know, God makes clear to us without exception:

 30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book;
 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

 (Joh 20:30-1 NKJ)

 16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
 17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
 18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
 (Joh 3:16-18 NKJ)

So when  you argue the complex hard things require a guru, consent of the fathers, bishops, whatever...the answer I repeat is, who needs that to be "wise unto salvation?...even a child can be made wise unto salvation by the Scripture, without your guru:

 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2Ti 3:15 NKJ)


I argue this, for argument's sake, there are too many of your traditions, that contradict God's Word...so you are not benefited by them at all. But for argument's sake I say, even if you were, so what...scripture by itself is able to make children wise unto salvation, just as it did with Timothy...and without your help or that of your church.




Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: bogdan on September 04, 2010, 03:03:50 PM
Quote
You argue much of scripture isn't profitable for doctrine, that its incomprehensible without the consensus of the fathers weighing in, or the teaching of the Orthodox church.

Alfred, if the scriptures are completely comprehensible unto themselves, then why are there many different interpretations?

I can show you two people who feel deeply convicted about their beliefs about the "plain meaning" of any given verse, but have exactly the opposite belief. They both can have amazing exegesis, yet come to opposing conclusions.

The fact is, you have no objective foundation by which to judge anything. It's all about etymology, archaeology, and a feeling in your soul. Well congratulations, everyone from Jehovah's Witnesses to Quakers judge their beliefs by the same standards, and they all use more or less the same Bible.

Meanwhile, we use these things as well, but they are always held in check by the objective standard of St Vincent that DennyB mentions above. Since the Holy Spirit is not schizophrenic, he doesn't lead different people to different interpretations. Since the Church is one living organism, it is not divided against itself. And because of all that, the tradition of the Church is trustworthy. That is why the Church Herself is the pillar and ground of truth, because a faithful member of the Church cannot deviate from the very narrow path She has marked out for us, by the Spirit's universal guidance.

Meanwhile, you—sitting there with just your Bible and whatever commentaries you deem correct—are not inherently or objectively trustworthy. You're one man meandering about after feelings and "convictions", without even the ability to discern whether these "convictions" are in fact true, because you have no point of reference outside of yourself.

Your argument is "special pleading," you are holding scripture up to a standard no literature achieves. Every statement on earth, regardless how simple, has its meaning disputed...there are lots of reasons for this, sometimes its profit, sometimes its hate, but often its just human nature to get things wrong.

What should really excite you, prove to you the Bible is inspired by God and His Spirit is laboring to overcome fallen human nature, is the level of Christian agreement as to what the Bible teaches.

Fact is, if you boil off all our disagreements, we all (mainline Christendom)  agree 80% or more, as to what scripture says.

That is divine, no other literature on the planet is as diverse---given the Bible is 66 books written over 1,500 time span on three different continents by very different people in three different languages..., yet in such phenomenal agreement.

Given that reality, the agreement as to what it says is INCREDIBLE, clearly there must be a divine reason why there is this level of agreement, when any other document far less complex and ancient, results in far more disagreement.





I know it's special pleading. The absurdity of what I said proves the absurdity of Sola Scriptura. The Bible cannot stand on its own; it is utterly impossible, because it must be interpreted. The meaning cannot be inferred simply by reading it, because everyone reads it through their own lens. That is simply the nature of things; that is neither good nor bad in itself.

But it must be interpreted so we can know what doctrine is, and how to reproof and correct people. You can do that by a) Tradition—that which was believed by all, in all places, and all times; or b) private interpretation, based on hand-picked scholars and perspectives, or even just your own whims.

One of these is consistent and universal, the other is inconsistent and fragmented. One elevates the Church above the individual, the other elevates the individual above the Church.

Since the Church is a single, coherent organism; and believers are to be of one mind, with one coherent Faith; and the Holy Spirit is not schizophrenic; only a universal interpretation fits with the nature of God and the Church. That means individuals must bow to Tradition, and not Tradition to individuals.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: genesisone on September 04, 2010, 03:34:17 PM
So when  you argue the complex hard things require a guru, consent of the fathers, bishops, whatever...the answer I repeat is, who needs that to be "wise unto salvation?...even a child can be made wise unto salvation by the Scripture, without your guru:

 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2Ti 3:15 NKJ)


I argue this, for argument's sake, there are too many of your traditions, that contradict God's Word...so you are not benefited by them at all. But for argument's sake I say, even if you were, so what...scripture by itself is able to make children wise unto salvation, just as it did with Timothy...and without your help or that of your church.
No, Alfred. What you say is not correct. You need to include verse 14
Quote
14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them (NKJV)
Timothy did not just pull a Bible off a shelf, begin reading, and become "...thoroughly equipped..." He was taught many things (I've asked you before to tell us what you think that might have been) by others. What he learned from their words and from the example of their lives also contributed to his becoming a complete Christian, through reproof, correction, and instruction.

And I will also state that quite frankly I take offence at your assertion that Orthodox Tradition "contradict(s) God's Word". You clearly do not understand what we Orthodox mean by Tradition. You have no right to declare that I am not benefited at all by two thousand years of collective wisdom of faithful Christians. Your arrogance and judgementalism in this matter are decidedly out of order.

Does anybody else hear a clanging cymbal?
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: PeterTheAleut on September 04, 2010, 04:31:46 PM
So when  you argue the complex hard things require a guru, consent of the fathers, bishops, whatever...the answer I repeat is, who needs that to be "wise unto salvation?...even a child can be made wise unto salvation by the Scripture, without your guru:

 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2Ti 3:15 NKJ)


I argue this, for argument's sake, there are too many of your traditions, that contradict God's Word...so you are not benefited by them at all. But for argument's sake I say, even if you were, so what...scripture by itself is able to make children wise unto salvation, just as it did with Timothy...and without your help or that of your church.
No, Alfred. What you say is not correct. You need to include verse 14
Quote
14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them (NKJV)
Timothy did not just pull a Bible off a shelf, begin reading, and become "...thoroughly equipped..." He was taught many things (I've asked you before to tell us what you think that might have been) by others. What he learned from their words and from the example of their lives also contributed to his becoming a complete Christian, through reproof, correction, and instruction.

And I will also state that quite frankly I take offence at your assertion that Orthodox Tradition "contradict(s) God's Word". You clearly do not understand what we Orthodox mean by Tradition. You have no right to declare that I am not benefited at all by two thousand years of collective wisdom of faithful Christians. Your arrogance and judgementalism in this matter are decidedly out of order.

Does anybody else hear a clanging cymbal?
Yes.  Alfred is never going to convince us of one iota of what he's saying as long as he starts from premises we don't accept.  We don't accept sola scriptura, so he will need to first convince us to embrace sola scriptura for us to find his constant proof texting from Scripture convincing.  And, ironically, he will need to convince us to embrace sola scriptura by citing authorities external to the Scriptures, and whom we recognize as speaking with authority.

He's also not going to convince us of anything as long as he keeps offending us by spouting his personal judgmental opinions of us.  One can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: biro on September 04, 2010, 05:06:21 PM
Quote
But you are arguing against Paul who said God inspired scripture in order that we be fully equipped for every good work:

You seriously think the Orthodox are arguing against St. Paul? After they have how many churches named for him?   ???

Quote
Knowing Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour is all that is required by God, and that PETRA He reveals to every one of His children who will be saved in this life, He puts it in their mouth and heart and then they confess it publicly before the eyes of angels and men, and are saved:

I'm sorry, I don't understand this run-on sentence.

Quote
You contradict Paul's apostolic oral tradition that all who confess Christ is LORD publicly WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME...

You say all who reject the novelties Christians added to the apostolic faith centuries later, like icons, will be put to shame.

Icons are not an innovation. They are in the Scripture: we are made in the "image (eikon) and likeness of God;" the Lord instructed the Hebrews to build the Ark of the Covenant, complete with the gold cherubim on top of it; there were icons in the Temple; and the Orthodox believe that St. Luke was the first Christian iconographer, who painted the Theotokos from life. The proper use of icons is not a heresy in the least. Iconoclasm is.

I have nothing against you, Mr. Persson, but it seems you want to appoint yourself as the top vaildator of Christian teaching. Please be wary of this temptation. It can't lead anywhere good.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 04, 2010, 05:35:38 PM
Yes.  Alfred is never going to convince us of one iota of what he's saying as long as he starts from premises we don't accept.  We don't accept sola scriptura, so he will need to first convince us to embrace sola scriptura for us to find his constant proof texting from Scripture convincing.  And, ironically, he will need to convince us to embrace sola scriptura by citing authorities external to the Scriptures, and whom we recognize as speaking with authority.

He's also not going to convince us of anything as long as he keeps offending us by spouting his personal judgmental opinions of us.  One can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Fundamentally you must argue: 1)PeterTheAleut cannot understand scripture or 2)Paul is wrong believing scripture equips completely.

Given 2 Ti 3:16ff, which position exactly are you arguing.

Talking about outside authority is irrelevant, I am discussing scripture. You either 1)believe it; 2)Don't believe it; 3)Don't understand it.

Thanks in advance for making your position clear.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: DennyB on September 04, 2010, 05:47:07 PM
Yes.  Alfred is never going to convince us of one iota of what he's saying as long as he starts from premises we don't accept.  We don't accept sola scriptura, so he will need to first convince us to embrace sola scriptura for us to find his constant proof texting from Scripture convincing.  And, ironically, he will need to convince us to embrace sola scriptura by citing authorities external to the Scriptures, and whom we recognize as speaking with authority.

He's also not going to convince us of anything as long as he keeps offending us by spouting his personal judgmental opinions of us.  One can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Fundamentally you must argue: 1)PeterTheAleut cannot understand scripture or 2)Paul is wrong believing scripture equips completely.

Given 2 Ti 3:16ff, which position exactly are you arguing.

Talking about outside authority is irrelevant, I am discussing scripture. You either 1)believe it; 2)Don't believe it; 3)Don't understand it.

Thanks in advance for making your position clear.

Your talking in so many directions,I really don't know what your point is,your the type of person who knows just enough to be dangerous, are you part of the Presbybaptistpenticostal denominations,or some other morphed denomination??
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 04, 2010, 05:53:25 PM
Quote
But you are arguing against Paul who said God inspired scripture in order that we be fully equipped for every good work:

You seriously think the Orthodox are arguing against St. Paul? After they have how many churches named for him?   ???

Quote
Knowing Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour is all that is required by God, and that PETRA He reveals to every one of His children who will be saved in this life, He puts it in their mouth and heart and then they confess it publicly before the eyes of angels and men, and are saved:

I'm sorry, I don't understand this run-on sentence.

Quote
You contradict Paul's apostolic oral tradition that all who confess Christ is LORD publicly WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME...

You say all who reject the novelties Christians added to the apostolic faith centuries later, like icons, will be put to shame.

Icons are not an innovation. They are in the Scripture: we are made in the "image (eikon) and likeness of God;" the Lord instructed the Hebrews to build the Ark of the Covenant, complete with the gold cherubim on top of it; there were icons in the Temple; and the Orthodox believe that St. Luke was the first Christian iconographer, who painted the Theotokos from life. The proper use of icons is not a heresy in the least. Iconoclasm is.

I have nothing against you, Mr. Persson, but it seems you want to appoint yourself as the top vaildator of Christian teaching. Please be wary of this temptation. It can't lead anywhere good.

1)Yes, Seriously, but you answer if the Orthodox are arguing with or against Paul. Do the Orthodox agree that....

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine... 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

a)Paul says all (or every) scripture is profitable for doctrine = none of it incomprehensible needing other material to make it profitable

b)God gave scripture in order that the man of God be completely equipped for every good work, which necessary includes the good work of teaching others the Christian faith.


So do the Orthodox say "yes" or "no" to #a and #b above?


2)God didn't trust you, or me, with our salvation. He knows better. So God predestined all those He already knew were His, before the founding of the world, to be saved:

4 ...He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself...
6 He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
 (Eph 1:4-6 NKJ)



God puts what He requires, in our mouth and heart, He divinely revealed Christ to our soul, and then we confess the PETRA of Christ, publicly:

8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart " (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 (Rom 10:8-10 NKJ)


What is essential to being made wise unto salvation, is in  the Bible. The entire Bible was written to communicate the life giving PETRA of Christ:

31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Joh 20:31 NKJ)

Therefore man is not required for our salvation...that includes every church on earth.

One might prefer a church over the other, because they consider its doctrines true, or the others false...but its wrong to believe the church has anything to do with our salvation...they do not...our salvation is a gift from God, and not of men, including we ourselves:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
 (Eph 2:8-10 NKJ)

We are God's workmanship, it took a divine act of creation to put us in Christ, we don't have the power to do that, nor is our power required to complete God's act of creation.

We are saved by grace, that is, undeserved kindness, and this salvation is NOT of ourselves...even the faith required to confess Christ, was inspired in us, by God Himself.


3)Icons diminish God to your psyche, if you speak to God picturing a finite image, then you engaging in idolatry having reduced the infinite God, into a finite form like unto a creature.

You cannot find one verse talking about icons, or describing their use, in the NT...because they didn't use them.








Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 04, 2010, 06:01:30 PM
Yes.  Alfred is never going to convince us of one iota of what he's saying as long as he starts from premises we don't accept.  We don't accept sola scriptura, so he will need to first convince us to embrace sola scriptura for us to find his constant proof texting from Scripture convincing.  And, ironically, he will need to convince us to embrace sola scriptura by citing authorities external to the Scriptures, and whom we recognize as speaking with authority.

He's also not going to convince us of anything as long as he keeps offending us by spouting his personal judgmental opinions of us.  One can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Fundamentally you must argue: 1)PeterTheAleut cannot understand scripture or 2)Paul is wrong believing scripture equips completely.

Given 2 Ti 3:16ff, which position exactly are you arguing.

Talking about outside authority is irrelevant, I am discussing scripture. You either 1)believe it; 2)Don't believe it; 3)Don't understand it.

Thanks in advance for making your position clear.

Your talking in so many directions,I really don't know what your point is,your the type of person who knows just enough to be dangerous, are you part of the Presbybaptistpenticostal denominations,or some other morphed denomination??

No.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: PeterTheAleut on September 04, 2010, 07:05:32 PM
Yes.  Alfred is never going to convince us of one iota of what he's saying as long as he starts from premises we don't accept.  We don't accept sola scriptura, so he will need to first convince us to embrace sola scriptura for us to find his constant proof texting from Scripture convincing.  And, ironically, he will need to convince us to embrace sola scriptura by citing authorities external to the Scriptures, and whom we recognize as speaking with authority.

He's also not going to convince us of anything as long as he keeps offending us by spouting his personal judgmental opinions of us.  One can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Fundamentally you must argue: 1)PeterTheAleut cannot understand scripture or 2)Paul is wrong believing scripture equips completely.
You forgot one.  3) Alfred Persson is wrong.

Given 2 Ti 3:16ff, which position exactly are you arguing.
1 Ti 3:15

Talking about outside authority is irrelevant, I am discussing scripture. You either 1)believe it; 2)Don't believe it; 3)Don't understand it.
No, it's perfectly relevant, since I'm laying out what you need to accomplish for us to believe you.  Right now you're just arguing with your straw men.

Thanks in advance for making your position clear.
You're welcome. :)
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: DennyB on September 04, 2010, 07:16:39 PM
Quote
But you are arguing against Paul who said God inspired scripture in order that we be fully equipped for every good work:

You seriously think the Orthodox are arguing against St. Paul? After they have how many churches named for him?   ???

Quote
Knowing Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour is all that is required by God, and that PETRA He reveals to every one of His children who will be saved in this life, He puts it in their mouth and heart and then they confess it publicly before the eyes of angels and men, and are saved:

I'm sorry, I don't understand this run-on sentence.

Quote
You contradict Paul's apostolic oral tradition that all who confess Christ is LORD publicly WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME...

You say all who reject the novelties Christians added to the apostolic faith centuries later, like icons, will be put to shame.

Icons are not an innovation. They are in the Scripture: we are made in the "image (eikon) and likeness of God;" the Lord instructed the Hebrews to build the Ark of the Covenant, complete with the gold cherubim on top of it; there were icons in the Temple; and the Orthodox believe that St. Luke was the first Christian iconographer, who painted the Theotokos from life. The proper use of icons is not a heresy in the least. Iconoclasm is.

I have nothing against you, Mr. Persson, but it seems you want to appoint yourself as the top vaildator of Christian teaching. Please be wary of this temptation. It can't lead anywhere good.

1)Yes, Seriously, but you answer if the Orthodox are arguing with or against Paul. Do the Orthodox agree that....

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine... 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

a)Paul says all (or every) scripture is profitable for doctrine = none of it incomprehensible needing other material to make it profitable

b)God gave scripture in order that the man of God be completely equipped for every good work, which necessary includes the good work of teaching others the Christian faith.


So do the Orthodox say "yes" or "no" to #a and #b above?


2)God didn't trust you, or me, with our salvation. He knows better. So God predestined all those He already knew were His, before the founding of the world, to be saved:

4 ...He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself...
6 He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
 (Eph 1:4-6 NKJ)



God puts what He requires, in our mouth and heart, He divinely revealed Christ to our soul, and then we confess the PETRA of Christ, publicly:

8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart " (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 (Rom 10:8-10 NKJ)


What is essential to being made wise unto salvation, is in  the Bible. The entire Bible was written to communicate the life giving PETRA of Christ:

31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Joh 20:31 NKJ)

Therefore man is not required for our salvation...that includes every church on earth.

One might prefer a church over the other, because they consider its doctrines true, or the others false...but its wrong to believe the church has anything to do with our salvation...they do not...our salvation is a gift from God, and not of men, including we ourselves:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
 (Eph 2:8-10 NKJ)

We are God's workmanship, it took a divine act of creation to put us in Christ, we don't have the power to do that, nor is our power required to complete God's act of creation.

We are saved by grace, that is, undeserved kindness, and this salvation is NOT of ourselves...even the faith required to confess Christ, was inspired in us, by God Himself.


3)Icons diminish God to your psyche, if you speak to God picturing a finite image, then you engaging in idolatry having reduced the infinite God, into a finite form like unto a creature.

You cannot find one verse talking about icons, or describing their use, in the NT...because they didn't use them.










What "image" of God have you formed in your own mind? You do realize that one forms images from what they read,and see in everyday life,so I ask again what "image of God" have you formed in your own mind and heart? Life is simply filled with images,or icons that stir the human imagination. So I would say Holy Icons are nothing but images of the Biblical record,and the life of the Church,formed in art.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: PeterTheAleut on September 04, 2010, 07:18:10 PM
Quote
But you are arguing against Paul who said God inspired scripture in order that we be fully equipped for every good work:

You seriously think the Orthodox are arguing against St. Paul? After they have how many churches named for him?   ???

Quote
Knowing Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour is all that is required by God, and that PETRA He reveals to every one of His children who will be saved in this life, He puts it in their mouth and heart and then they confess it publicly before the eyes of angels and men, and are saved:

I'm sorry, I don't understand this run-on sentence.

Quote
You contradict Paul's apostolic oral tradition that all who confess Christ is LORD publicly WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME...

You say all who reject the novelties Christians added to the apostolic faith centuries later, like icons, will be put to shame.

Icons are not an innovation. They are in the Scripture: we are made in the "image (eikon) and likeness of God;" the Lord instructed the Hebrews to build the Ark of the Covenant, complete with the gold cherubim on top of it; there were icons in the Temple; and the Orthodox believe that St. Luke was the first Christian iconographer, who painted the Theotokos from life. The proper use of icons is not a heresy in the least. Iconoclasm is.

I have nothing against you, Mr. Persson, but it seems you want to appoint yourself as the top vaildator of Christian teaching. Please be wary of this temptation. It can't lead anywhere good.

1)Yes, Seriously, but you answer if the Orthodox are arguing with or against Paul. Do the Orthodox agree that....

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine... 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

a)Paul says all (or every) scripture is profitable for doctrine = none of it incomprehensible needing other material to make it profitable

b)God gave scripture in order that the man of God be completely equipped for every good work, which necessary includes the good work of teaching others the Christian faith.


So do the Orthodox say "yes" or "no" to #a and #b above?
We just think you're arguing your own non sequitur logic and your own goofy interpretations of Scripture, which I've not seen even among the Protestant churches I used to attend.  You might find by learning more about us that we don't place such value on syllogistic reasoning when it comes to interpreting the Scriptures.  IOW, we even find your methodology questionable.

2)God didn't trust you, or me, with our salvation. He knows better. So God predestined all those He already knew were His, before the founding of the world, to be saved:

4 ...He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself...
6 He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
 (Eph 1:4-6 NKJ)
So, you're a Calvinist, then.  Why don't you go look for a thread where we've already discussed the subject of predestination vs. free will?

3)Icons diminish God to your psyche, if you speak to God picturing a finite image, then you engaging in idolatry having reduced the infinite God, into a finite form like unto a creature.

You cannot find one verse talking about icons, or describing their use, in the NT...because they didn't use them.
You've already argued this before.  Remember?  So why don't you take your iconoclasm to the thread where you first talked about it?  Let's keep this thread on topic, okay?
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: genesisone on September 04, 2010, 07:51:50 PM
Do the Orthodox agree that....

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine... 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

a)Paul says all (or every) scripture is profitable for doctrine = none of it incomprehensible needing other material to make it profitable

b)God gave scripture in order that the man of God be completely equipped for every good work, which necessary includes the good work of teaching others the Christian faith.


So do the Orthodox say "yes" or "no" to #a and #b above?
Alfred, here you go again quoting for the umpteenth time those verses from 2 Tim 3 out of context.

It's very noticeable that you have chosen to omit
Quote
(profitable for)... for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
We Orthodox have countered you on many occasions with Scripture, but you continue to demand that we accept your and only your interpretation.

The Orthodox most definitely accept the words of Holy Scripture -- all of it. We didn't omit a whole list of books within the last five hundred years that makes our doctrinal position awkward. Think about it.

Unfortunately, it appears that you don't believe what the Scriptures say as you insert "only" so that the verses you quoted should read "ONLY Scripture is given by God...and ONLY Scripture is profitable..." I challenge you to insert "only" into all your verses including John 20:31, and see if the meaning is changed. If there is no change, then you have added words that aren't there. If the meaning does change, then it follows that Scripture does not stand alone, but within a greater context.

Try reading Acts 15. The Apostles did not find an explicit answer to their problem in Scripture. Yes, they used and quoted Scripture, but
Quote
We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things...(NKJV)
Do you honestly believe that Judas and Silas merely read the letter to the Christians in Antioch and other places with no further instruction or discussion? Note as well that the solution to the issue came about yes - with the help of Scripture - but also with direction from the Holy Spirit and by the Apostles' own careful reasoning.

Alfred, have you ever attended an Orthodox service with a heart and mind open enough to actually listen to what's going on? If so, you would know how highly we venerate the words of Scripture. For example, we stand when the Gospel book is brought in; we stand for the reading of the Gospel - because in those words we see Christ. Our Divine Liturgy is almost entirely Scriptural quotations or obvious allusions to the Scriptures. It was the Orthodox Church that determined which Apostolic Writings would form the canon of the New Testament. Yes, Alfred, you are reading our Bible and then you have the effrontery to tell us we don't understand it!

Alfred, understand this as being said with kindness and sincere concern for you: don't let your Bible become your idol. Close it. Just for a while. Look around at what God has done - the world He has made, the people He has brought into your life for your good, for your own life and the changes He has already begun to make in you. See to it that "you are an epistle of Christ... written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart."(2 Cor 3:3, NKJV)
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 05, 2010, 12:53:47 AM
Quote
But you are arguing against Paul who said God inspired scripture in order that we be fully equipped for every good work:

You seriously think the Orthodox are arguing against St. Paul? After they have how many churches named for him?   ???

Quote
Knowing Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour is all that is required by God, and that PETRA He reveals to every one of His children who will be saved in this life, He puts it in their mouth and heart and then they confess it publicly before the eyes of angels and men, and are saved:

I'm sorry, I don't understand this run-on sentence.

Quote
You contradict Paul's apostolic oral tradition that all who confess Christ is LORD publicly WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME...

You say all who reject the novelties Christians added to the apostolic faith centuries later, like icons, will be put to shame.

Icons are not an innovation. They are in the Scripture: we are made in the "image (eikon) and likeness of God;" the Lord instructed the Hebrews to build the Ark of the Covenant, complete with the gold cherubim on top of it; there were icons in the Temple; and the Orthodox believe that St. Luke was the first Christian iconographer, who painted the Theotokos from life. The proper use of icons is not a heresy in the least. Iconoclasm is.

I have nothing against you, Mr. Persson, but it seems you want to appoint yourself as the top vaildator of Christian teaching. Please be wary of this temptation. It can't lead anywhere good.

1)Yes, Seriously, but you answer if the Orthodox are arguing with or against Paul. Do the Orthodox agree that....

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine... 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

a)Paul says all (or every) scripture is profitable for doctrine = none of it incomprehensible needing other material to make it profitable

b)God gave scripture in order that the man of God be completely equipped for every good work, which necessary includes the good work of teaching others the Christian faith.


So do the Orthodox say "yes" or "no" to #a and #b above?
We just think you're arguing your own non sequitur logic and your own goofy interpretations of Scripture, which I've not seen even among the Protestant churches I used to attend.  You might find by learning more about us that we don't place such value on syllogistic reasoning when it comes to interpreting the Scriptures.  IOW, we even find your methodology questionable.

2)God didn't trust you, or me, with our salvation. He knows better. So God predestined all those He already knew were His, before the founding of the world, to be saved:

4 ...He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself...
6 He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
 (Eph 1:4-6 NKJ)
So, you're a Calvinist, then.  Why don't you go look for a thread where we've already discussed the subject of predestination vs. free will?

3)Icons diminish God to your psyche, if you speak to God picturing a finite image, then you engaging in idolatry having reduced the infinite God, into a finite form like unto a creature.

You cannot find one verse talking about icons, or describing their use, in the NT...because they didn't use them.
You've already argued this before.  Remember?  So why don't you take your iconoclasm to the thread where you first talked about it?  Let's keep this thread on topic, okay?

Prove its non sequitur, describe the disconnection:

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-1 NKJ)

Compare the Bible in Basic English translation:

16 Every holy Writing which comes from God is of profit for teaching, for training, for guiding, for education in righteousness:
 17 So that the man of God may be complete, trained and made ready for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-1 BBE)

HINA in vs 17 is "so that", God gave scripture SO THAT the man of God be thoroughly equipped for EVERY good work.

Teaching the Christian religion to others is a good work.

Therefore scripture completely equips the man of God to teach the Christian religion.

Prove that syllogistic logic unsound, otherwise you are just throwing dust into the air.



I am not a Calvinist, although he was close, no banana. It is written:

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Rom 8:29

Contrary to the presumption of both Calvinists and Arminians, and every flavor in between, Verse 29 does NOT say "those whom God elected after foreknowing them, these He predestined."

If you were to diagram this, KAI separates both actions, both happen to the elect who existed before this verse's action.

Its like a one rung ladder, the two legs of foreknowledge and predestination are connected only to the rung, not each other.

That totally destroys Arminius' arguments, and also double predestination of Calvinists. Two birds with one stone.

God already knew who the elect were, before He foreknew and predestined them. God doesn't need foreknowledge, to know anything, He already knows all things.

Therefore the foreknowledge was for our benefit, not His, that God be proved true, and every man a liar. Those God elected, would have merited election by man's standards (but not God's), if that is what God wanted to do. But He didn't lest pride cause us to fall as it did the devil.

We don't know why God elected us, we do know that we are unworthy.

It does not follow the naysayers are right, that God was unjust, in His foreknowledge, using their own standards, they are proven wrong. While that is speculation, its likely.

Let God be true, and every naysayer a liar, God will be proved righteous, their mouths will be stopped.

An analogy:

I know my fleet of cars are road worthy, but you dispute that. So I put them thorough various tests, with they pass, proving they are roadworthy according to your standards, to refute your charge I discriminated unfairly against other cars not selected.

It does not follow these cars would pass the test according to MY standards, but that was never the issue. Its your complaint I am addressing. I already state emphatically these cars were only allowed in because of the merits of Jesus Christ.

So I never revealed to you why these cars are in my fleet...but that is my business, not yours. It suffices you are proved wrong if you declare my choices unjust.

So God effects our salvation, not us:

NKJ  Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
 (Rom 8:30 NKJ)

But foreknowledge had nothing to do with election, God already knew who the elect are, before anything:

NKJ  Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, (Eph 1:4 NKJ)


All this is implied by Paul, the context of Rom 8:29 or here doesn't mention the unsaved, because God didn't mandate who the  reprobate are, they do that to themselves, which was made clear in the beginning:

LXE  Genesis 4:7 Hast thou not sinned if thou hast brought it rightly, but not rightly divided it? be still, to thee shall be his submission, and thou shalt rule over him. (Gen 4:7 LXE)

Or as our LORD said it, THEY closed their eyes and ears, not Him:

NKJ  Matthew 13:15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.'
 (Mat 13:15 NKJ)

This is Not Calvinism, its scripture truth.

Foreknowledge proves God's judgments  are just, all the saved need to know that for a truth, so they don't wonder about it:

NKJ  Revelation 15:4 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, For Your judgments have been manifested." (Rev 15:4 NKJ)

Foreknowledge manifests God didn't elect unworthy people, but this sheds no light on why He selected them...that too is for our benefit, lest we grow prideful as the devil did.

Fact is, NONE of the elect deserve salvation, they all were born in sin, and sinned, falling short of the required perfection for life.


As for icons, that subject belongs in the other thread...I erred mentioning it here.

Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 05, 2010, 01:45:28 AM
Quote
But you are arguing against Paul who said God inspired scripture in order that we be fully equipped for every good work:

You seriously think the Orthodox are arguing against St. Paul? After they have how many churches named for him?   ???

Quote
Knowing Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour is all that is required by God, and that PETRA He reveals to every one of His children who will be saved in this life, He puts it in their mouth and heart and then they confess it publicly before the eyes of angels and men, and are saved:

I'm sorry, I don't understand this run-on sentence.

Quote
You contradict Paul's apostolic oral tradition that all who confess Christ is LORD publicly WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME...

You say all who reject the novelties Christians added to the apostolic faith centuries later, like icons, will be put to shame.

Icons are not an innovation. They are in the Scripture: we are made in the "image (eikon) and likeness of God;" the Lord instructed the Hebrews to build the Ark of the Covenant, complete with the gold cherubim on top of it; there were icons in the Temple; and the Orthodox believe that St. Luke was the first Christian iconographer, who painted the Theotokos from life. The proper use of icons is not a heresy in the least. Iconoclasm is.

I have nothing against you, Mr. Persson, but it seems you want to appoint yourself as the top vaildator of Christian teaching. Please be wary of this temptation. It can't lead anywhere good.

1)Yes, Seriously, but you answer if the Orthodox are arguing with or against Paul. Do the Orthodox agree that....

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine... 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

a)Paul says all (or every) scripture is profitable for doctrine = none of it incomprehensible needing other material to make it profitable

b)God gave scripture in order that the man of God be completely equipped for every good work, which necessary includes the good work of teaching others the Christian faith.


So do the Orthodox say "yes" or "no" to #a and #b above?
We just think you're arguing your own non sequitur logic and your own goofy interpretations of Scripture, which I've not seen even among the Protestant churches I used to attend.  You might find by learning more about us that we don't place such value on syllogistic reasoning when it comes to interpreting the Scriptures.  IOW, we even find your methodology questionable.

2)God didn't trust you, or me, with our salvation. He knows better. So God predestined all those He already knew were His, before the founding of the world, to be saved:

4 ...He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself...
6 He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
 (Eph 1:4-6 NKJ)
So, you're a Calvinist, then.  Why don't you go look for a thread where we've already discussed the subject of predestination vs. free will?

3)Icons diminish God to your psyche, if you speak to God picturing a finite image, then you engaging in idolatry having reduced the infinite God, into a finite form like unto a creature.

You cannot find one verse talking about icons, or describing their use, in the NT...because they didn't use them.
You've already argued this before.  Remember?  So why don't you take your iconoclasm to the thread where you first talked about it?  Let's keep this thread on topic, okay?

Prove its non sequitur, describe the disconnection:

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-1 NKJ)

Compare the Bible in Basic English translation:

16 Every holy Writing which comes from God is of profit for teaching, for training, for guiding, for education in righteousness:
 17 So that the man of God may be complete, trained and made ready for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-1 BBE)

HINA in vs 17 is "so that", God gave scripture SO THAT the man of God be thoroughly equipped for EVERY good work.

Teaching the Christian religion to others is a good work.

Therefore scripture completely equips the man of God to teach the Christian religion.

Prove that syllogistic logic unsound, otherwise you are just throwing dust into the air.



I am not a Calvinist, although he was close, no banana. It is written:

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Rom 8:29

Contrary to the presumption of both Calvinists and Arminians, and every flavor in between, Verse 29 does NOT say "those whom God elected after foreknowing them, these He predestined."

If you were to diagram this, KAI separates both actions, both happen to the elect who existed before this verse's action.

Its like a one rung ladder, the two legs of foreknowledge and predestination are connected only to the rung, not each other.

That totally destroys Arminius' arguments, and also double predestination of Calvinists. Two birds with one stone.

God already knew who the elect were, before He foreknew and predestined them. God doesn't need foreknowledge, to know anything, He already knows all things.

Therefore the foreknowledge was for our benefit, not His, that God be proved true, and every man a liar. Those God elected, would have merited election by man's standards (but not God's), if that is what God wanted to do. But He didn't lest pride cause us to fall as it did the devil.

We don't know why God elected us, we do know that we are unworthy.

It does not follow the naysayers are right, that God was unjust, in His foreknowledge, using their own standards, they are proven wrong. While that is speculation, its likely.

Let God be true, and every naysayer a liar, God will be proved righteous, their mouths will be stopped.

An analogy:

I know my fleet of cars are road worthy, but you dispute that. So I put them through rigorous test that you agree is a real test, and they pass, proving they are roadworthy according to your standards, to refute your charge I discriminated unfairly against other cars not selected.

It does not follow these cars would pass the test according to MY standards, but that was never the issue. Its your complaint I am addressing. I already state emphatically these cars were only allowed in because of the merits of Jesus Christ.

So I never revealed to you why these cars are in my fleet...but that is my business, not yours. It suffices you are proved wrong if you declare my choices unjust.

So God effects our salvation, not us:

NKJ  Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
 (Rom 8:30 NKJ)

But foreknowledge had nothing to do with election, God already knew who the elect are, before anything:

NKJ  Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, (Eph 1:4 NKJ)


All this is implied by Paul, the context of Rom 8:29 or here doesn't mention the unsaved, because God didn't mandate who the  reprobate are, they do that to themselves, which was made clear in the beginning:

NKJ  Genesis 4:7 "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it." (Gen 4:7 NKJ)


Or as our LORD said it, THEY closed their eyes and ears, not Him:

NKJ  Matthew 13:15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.'
 (Mat 13:15 NKJ)

This is Not Calvinism, its scripture truth.

Foreknowledge proves God's judgments  are just, all the saved need to know that for a truth, so they don't wonder about it:

NKJ  Revelation 15:4 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, For Your judgments have been manifested." (Rev 15:4 NKJ)

Foreknowledge manifests God didn't elect unworthy people, but this sheds no light on why He selected them...that too is for our benefit, lest we grow prideful as the devil did.

Fact is, NONE of the elect deserve salvation, they all were born in sin, and sinned, falling short of the required perfection for life.

Finally, foreknowledge and predestination happened only to the elect, the non elect don't appear in the Rom 8:29 context. No doubt that is for our benefit also, lest we see just how evil these could be, some of whom may have been relatives and friends. No sense revealing just how evil they could be, its not necessary and would only upset us.

As for icons, that subject belongs in the other thread...I erred mentioning it here.


Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 05, 2010, 02:23:22 AM
Re Mat 13:5

 40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them."
 41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.
 42 Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue;
 (Joh 12:40-42 NKJ)

In context this doesn't apply to all mankind, only the nation of Israel, the generation that saw Christ specifically:

 27 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them."'
 28 "Therefore let it be known to you that the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will hear it!"
 (Act 28:27-28 NKJ)

This does not contradict God doesn't reprobate, because election of Israel is without repentance:

 7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it sought. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
 8 as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, down to this very day."
 9 And David says, "Let their table become a snare and a trap, a pitfall and a retribution for them;
 10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs for ever."
 11 So I ask, have they stumbled so as to fall? By no means! But through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.
 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
 (Rom 11:7-12 RSV)


 26 and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
 27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."
 28 As regards the gospel they are enemies of God, for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.
 29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.
 30 Just as you were once disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience,
 (Rom 11:26-30 RSV)



Perhaps one day I will open a thread on the intermediate state.

Suffice to say, God will save His people, even if He must put them through hell first, for their rebellion:

 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1Pe 4:6 NKJ)

No salvation in Hades, they must wait to be raised up from it, in the day of the LORD Jesus:

 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5 NKJ)


That some of God's elect rise up from hades, into life, on judgment day, is negatively stated:

 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:12-15 NKJ)

Therefore some of them were in the book of life and not cast into the lake of fire.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: PeterTheAleut on September 05, 2010, 03:13:08 AM
Quote
But you are arguing against Paul who said God inspired scripture in order that we be fully equipped for every good work:

You seriously think the Orthodox are arguing against St. Paul? After they have how many churches named for him?   ???

Quote
Knowing Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour is all that is required by God, and that PETRA He reveals to every one of His children who will be saved in this life, He puts it in their mouth and heart and then they confess it publicly before the eyes of angels and men, and are saved:

I'm sorry, I don't understand this run-on sentence.

Quote
You contradict Paul's apostolic oral tradition that all who confess Christ is LORD publicly WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME...

You say all who reject the novelties Christians added to the apostolic faith centuries later, like icons, will be put to shame.

Icons are not an innovation. They are in the Scripture: we are made in the "image (eikon) and likeness of God;" the Lord instructed the Hebrews to build the Ark of the Covenant, complete with the gold cherubim on top of it; there were icons in the Temple; and the Orthodox believe that St. Luke was the first Christian iconographer, who painted the Theotokos from life. The proper use of icons is not a heresy in the least. Iconoclasm is.

I have nothing against you, Mr. Persson, but it seems you want to appoint yourself as the top vaildator of Christian teaching. Please be wary of this temptation. It can't lead anywhere good.

1)Yes, Seriously, but you answer if the Orthodox are arguing with or against Paul. Do the Orthodox agree that....

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine... 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

a)Paul says all (or every) scripture is profitable for doctrine = none of it incomprehensible needing other material to make it profitable

b)God gave scripture in order that the man of God be completely equipped for every good work, which necessary includes the good work of teaching others the Christian faith.


So do the Orthodox say "yes" or "no" to #a and #b above?
We just think you're arguing your own non sequitur logic and your own goofy interpretations of Scripture, which I've not seen even among the Protestant churches I used to attend.  You might find by learning more about us that we don't place such value on syllogistic reasoning when it comes to interpreting the Scriptures.  IOW, we even find your methodology questionable.

2)God didn't trust you, or me, with our salvation. He knows better. So God predestined all those He already knew were His, before the founding of the world, to be saved:

4 ...He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself...
6 He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
 (Eph 1:4-6 NKJ)
So, you're a Calvinist, then.  Why don't you go look for a thread where we've already discussed the subject of predestination vs. free will?

3)Icons diminish God to your psyche, if you speak to God picturing a finite image, then you engaging in idolatry having reduced the infinite God, into a finite form like unto a creature.

You cannot find one verse talking about icons, or describing their use, in the NT...because they didn't use them.
You've already argued this before.  Remember?  So why don't you take your iconoclasm to the thread where you first talked about it?  Let's keep this thread on topic, okay?

Prove its non sequitur,
I don't have to prove the obvious, but just to humor you, I will.  "a)Paul says all (or every) scripture is profitable for doctrine = none of it incomprehensible needing other material to make it profitable"  Profitability for doctrine does not imply comprehensibility--there's just no connection between the two concepts.  Your conclusions don't follow from your premises, therefore your logic is non sequitur.

describe the disconnection:[/b][/i]

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-1 NKJ)

Compare the Bible in Basic English translation:

16 Every holy Writing which comes from God is of profit for teaching, for training, for guiding, for education in righteousness:
 17 So that the man of God may be complete, trained and made ready for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-1 BBE)

HINA in vs 17 is "so that", God gave scripture SO THAT the man of God be thoroughly equipped for EVERY good work.

So you cite different "translations" of the Bible to prove your point?  So what?  Why don't you use the New World Translation of the Bible?  I'm sure it's just as good as the BBE.  Produced as it is by one man, Professor S. H. Hooke, the BBE very well could be--and reads like--his interpretation of the Scriptures.  How do we know we can trust him?  Does the mere fact that he has the title "Professor" make him an authority on how to translate the Bible?

Teaching the Christian religion to others is a good work.

Therefore scripture completely equips the man of God to teach the Christian religion.

Prove that syllogistic logic unsound, otherwise you are just throwing dust into the air.

When I talked of syllogistic logic, I didn't speak of it to say that yours was unsound.  I just said that we Orthodox don't rely upon syllogistic logic alone to lead us to a correct interpretation of the Scriptures, which makes your extensive use of syllogistic logic unconvincing to us.  You need to argue from premises we accept.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Melodist on September 05, 2010, 07:53:07 AM
You contradict Paul's apostolic oral tradition that all who confess Christ is LORD publicly WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME...

You say all who reject the novelties Christians added to the apostolic faith centuries later, like icons, will be put to shame.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumie)
Quote
A fumi-e (Japanese: 踏み絵, fumi 'stepping-on' + e 'picture') was a likeness of Jesus or Mary upon which the religious authorities of the Tokugawa shogunate of Japan required suspected Christians to step on in order to prove that they were not members of that outlawed religion. The use of fumi-e began with the persecution of Christians in Nagasaki in 1629.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 05, 2010, 10:24:56 AM
Quote
But you are arguing against Paul who said God inspired scripture in order that we be fully equipped for every good work:

You seriously think the Orthodox are arguing against St. Paul? After they have how many churches named for him?   ???

Quote
Knowing Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour is all that is required by God, and that PETRA He reveals to every one of His children who will be saved in this life, He puts it in their mouth and heart and then they confess it publicly before the eyes of angels and men, and are saved:

I'm sorry, I don't understand this run-on sentence.

Quote
You contradict Paul's apostolic oral tradition that all who confess Christ is LORD publicly WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME...

You say all who reject the novelties Christians added to the apostolic faith centuries later, like icons, will be put to shame.

Icons are not an innovation. They are in the Scripture: we are made in the "image (eikon) and likeness of God;" the Lord instructed the Hebrews to build the Ark of the Covenant, complete with the gold cherubim on top of it; there were icons in the Temple; and the Orthodox believe that St. Luke was the first Christian iconographer, who painted the Theotokos from life. The proper use of icons is not a heresy in the least. Iconoclasm is.

I have nothing against you, Mr. Persson, but it seems you want to appoint yourself as the top vaildator of Christian teaching. Please be wary of this temptation. It can't lead anywhere good.

1)Yes, Seriously, but you answer if the Orthodox are arguing with or against Paul. Do the Orthodox agree that....

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine... 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

a)Paul says all (or every) scripture is profitable for doctrine = none of it incomprehensible needing other material to make it profitable

b)God gave scripture in order that the man of God be completely equipped for every good work, which necessary includes the good work of teaching others the Christian faith.


So do the Orthodox say "yes" or "no" to #a and #b above?
We just think you're arguing your own non sequitur logic and your own goofy interpretations of Scripture, which I've not seen even among the Protestant churches I used to attend.  You might find by learning more about us that we don't place such value on syllogistic reasoning when it comes to interpreting the Scriptures.  IOW, we even find your methodology questionable.

2)God didn't trust you, or me, with our salvation. He knows better. So God predestined all those He already knew were His, before the founding of the world, to be saved:

4 ...He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself...
6 He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
 (Eph 1:4-6 NKJ)
So, you're a Calvinist, then.  Why don't you go look for a thread where we've already discussed the subject of predestination vs. free will?

3)Icons diminish God to your psyche, if you speak to God picturing a finite image, then you engaging in idolatry having reduced the infinite God, into a finite form like unto a creature.

You cannot find one verse talking about icons, or describing their use, in the NT...because they didn't use them.
You've already argued this before.  Remember?  So why don't you take your iconoclasm to the thread where you first talked about it?  Let's keep this thread on topic, okay?

Prove its non sequitur,
I don't have to prove the obvious, but just to humor you, I will.  "a)Paul says all (or every) scripture is profitable for doctrine = none of it incomprehensible needing other material to make it profitable"  Profitability for doctrine does not imply comprehensibility--there's just no connection between the two concepts.  Your conclusions don't follow from your premises, therefore your logic is non sequitur.

describe the disconnection:[/b][/i]

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-1 NKJ)

Compare the Bible in Basic English translation:

16 Every holy Writing which comes from God is of profit for teaching, for training, for guiding, for education in righteousness:
 17 So that the man of God may be complete, trained and made ready for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-1 BBE)

HINA in vs 17 is "so that", God gave scripture SO THAT the man of God be thoroughly equipped for EVERY good work.

So you cite different "translations" of the Bible to prove your point?  So what?  Why don't you use the New World Translation of the Bible?  I'm sure it's just as good as the BBE.  Produced as it is by one man, Professor S. H. Hooke, the BBE very well could be--and reads like--his interpretation of the Scriptures.  How do we know we can trust him?  Does the mere fact that he has the title "Professor" make him an authority on how to translate the Bible?

Teaching the Christian religion to others is a good work.

Therefore scripture completely equips the man of God to teach the Christian religion.

Prove that syllogistic logic unsound, otherwise you are just throwing dust into the air.

When I talked of syllogistic logic, I didn't speak of it to say that yours was unsound.  I just said that we Orthodox don't rely upon syllogistic logic alone to lead us to a correct interpretation of the Scriptures, which makes your extensive use of syllogistic logic unconvincing to us.  You need to argue from premises we accept.

5624 ὠφέλιμος ophelimos "profitable" occurs 2 other times in scripture:

NKJ  1 Timothy 4:8 For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable(ὠφέλιμος) for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come (1Ti 4:8 NKJ)

NKJ  Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable(ὠφέλιμος) to men. (Tit 3:8 NKJ)


For something to be profitable (ὠφέλιμος) it must have value. Incomprehensible language has no value:

11 Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me.... (1Co 14:11 NKJ)

Therefore

28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent  (1Co 14:28 NKJ)

All things done in the church must edify, must be profitable to others, otherwise it should not be done.
16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say "Amen " at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say?
 17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified. (1Co 14:16-17 NKJ)


So comprehensibility has everything to do with language being profitable, if its incomprehensible, it is not profitable and may as well be silent, for none are edified by what does not inform them.


2)Scholars call this the most obscure verse in the OT.

LXE  Genesis 4:7 Hast thou not sinned if thou hast brought it rightly, but not rightly divided it? be still, to thee shall be his submission, and thou shalt rule over him.

NKJ  Genesis 4:7 "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."

The Dead Sea Bible, the same:

QBE  Genesis 4:7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not well, sin crouches at the door: and its desire is to have you, but you must rule over it."


I interpret them as essentially in agreement, but the lxx is paraphrase, interpreting Cain's sin as not bringing the sacrifice correctly, i.e., with a good heart, not dividing it correctly merely a symptom of a bad heart motive. Perhaps he is giving God a miserly portion? Or is his heart he is thinking this is a bribe that gets God on his side? Cain certainly proves his bad heart by slaying Abel his brother right after this. The LXX didn't make clear sin was to be ruled over, not Abel, so I used the NKJ which does.


3)I don't rely on logic alone either, I rely on God...but I have found God's truth is always sound:


LXE  Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the counsel of saints is understanding: for to know the law is the character of a sound mind.
 (Pro 9:10 LXE)

NKJ  2 Timothy 1:7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.
 (2Ti 1:7 NKJ)


Given the spiritual realities taught in scripture, no part of God's revelation appears to be the product of human interpretation:

NKJ  2 Peter 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
 (2Pe 1:20 NKJ)

What God revealed through the prophets "rings true" not only because of emotion, or faith, but because a sound analysis of all the premises, including relevant concepts, it all fits perfectly without self contradiction.

IN other words, God's truth conforms to facts as they are given throughout scripture. It presents a harmonious picture whereas human interpretation would be self contradictory, requiring compartmentalization to survive when details conflict with the picture provided. So human origin is proved by self contradiction, God never contradicts Himself. God's truth is always parsimonous, never going against details God revealed.

God's truth is like a diamond when held to the light of scripture, it conducts brilliant light no matter how it is turned, the facts in scripture never contradict it:

NKJ  James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. (Jam 1:17 NKJ)

So God's truth is always "sound," good and perfect, the individual pieces of the picture, at peace with each other all painting one self consistent picture:

God is the author of sound doctrine, where all the pieces of the puzzle are at peace with each other, the opposite of that is confusion.... and it is written:

NKJ  1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. (1Co 14:33 NKJ)


It follows from God granting us a "sound mind" via His Spirit, that He is the Arch type of Soundness, Master Logician extraordinaire and this invisible thing of God is manifest in His visible creation, the precise way all things work together.

NKJ  Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, (Rom 1:20 NKJ)
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: PeterTheAleut on September 05, 2010, 10:50:37 AM
For something to be profitable (ὠφέλιμος) it must have value. Incomprehensible language has no value:
So you say.  You do realize that you're first drawing conclusions, and then pulling up Scriptural proof texts to prove your conclusions?  That's not how exegesis works.

I interpret them as essentially in agreement,
That's nice. :-\  It's become quite apparent that nobody here cares how you interpret the text, since we grant you no authority to speak to us.

3)I don't rely on logic alone either, I rely on God...but I have found God's truth, is always sound:
Then it's obvious you know not the difference, projecting your thoughts as you do into the mouth of God.

Given the spiritual realities taught in scripture, no part of God's revelation appears to be the product of human interpretation:

NKJ  2 Peter 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
 (2Pe 1:20 NKJ)
Which totally undermines your arguments here.  We've shown many times over on this forum that what you are presenting IS your private interpretation of Scripture, and no amount of proof texting from the Bible is going to change that.  Are you going to address that problem, or are you just going to continue to bombard us with proof texts that, taken out of their context, become distorted to the point of being meaningless?

God is the author of sound logic, where all the pieces of the puzzle are at peace with each other, the opposite of that is confusion.... and it is written:


NKJ  1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. (1Co 14:33 NKJ)
Then why are you so confusing?
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 05, 2010, 10:58:40 AM
You contradict Paul's apostolic oral tradition that all who confess Christ is LORD publicly WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME...

You say all who reject the novelties Christians added to the apostolic faith centuries later, like icons, will be put to shame.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumie)
Quote
A fumi-e (Japanese: 踏み絵, fumi 'stepping-on' + e 'picture') was a likeness of Jesus or Mary upon which the religious authorities of the Tokugawa shogunate of Japan required suspected Christians to step on in order to prove that they were not members of that outlawed religion. The use of fumi-e began with the persecution of Christians in Nagasaki in 1629.

Does that really satisfy your intellectual needs? You aren't proving your beliefs are correct to me or anyone else. Its rather a commentary on how poorly you treat others.

No comment would have been better.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 05, 2010, 11:02:29 AM
For something to be profitable (ὠφέλιμος) it must have value. Incomprehensible language has no value:
So you say.  You do realize that you're first drawing conclusions, and then pulling up Scriptural proof texts to prove your conclusions?  That's not how exegesis works.

Yes, I behave precisely as primitive Orthodox do, the fathers. They cited scripture for their beliefs, not each other.

I am a primitive Orthodox, that is why I do what they did, cite scripture proof texts to prove my beliefs are apostolical, and not a discovery of my own.


You cannot be serious comparing me to God, there is no contest. He is clear, perspicacious, I remain obscure...but I am trying to learn how to communicate by studying how God did it in Scripture...learning from the Master as it were. I have far to go.

For example, I should only quote that part of the text I am citing...my habit of including the whole verse, doesn't communicate, people often miss the point in the text. Christ and His apostles cited only the precise words upon which their point was made, I will start doing the same...

So I thank you for reminding me, often people don't see the tree because of the forest...its time I specify the portion of the verse upon which my point rests...

Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: SolEX01 on September 05, 2010, 01:03:32 PM
Yes, I behave precisely as primitive Orthodox do, the fathers. They cited scripture for their beliefs, not each other.

I am a primitive Orthodox, that is why I do what they did, cite scripture proof texts to prove my beliefs are apostolical, and not a discovery of my own.

Does your calendar say 100 AD?   ;)

You cannot be serious comparing me to God, there is no contest. He is clear, perspicacious, I remain obscure...but I am trying to learn how to communicate by studying how God did it in Scripture...learning from the Master as it were. I have far to go.

Sounds like you've gone far enough.

For example, I should only quote that part of the text I am citing...my habit of including the whole verse, doesn't communicate, people often miss the point in the text. Christ and His apostles cited only the precise words upon which their point was made, I will start doing the same...

That won't affect how others already view you and your "over the top" proof-texting of Scripture.

So I thank you for reminding me, often people don't see the tree because of the forest...its time I specify the portion of the verse upon which my point rests...

If only you could take off the self-imposed blindfold while wandering through the forest, running into trees and hopefully seeing the Uncreated Light which Saul saw on the way to Damascus....

Edited for content and context
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: biro on September 05, 2010, 01:09:46 PM
Apparently Alfred has never been to an Orthodox liturgy. I have to make this guess because if he had, he would have heard these prayers:

"Let us commend ourselves and one another, and all our lives, unto Christ our God."

and,

"Through the prayers of our holy Fathers, O Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy upon us and save us."

There we are. Prayers commending our lives to Christ, and asking Him to save us.

If that isn't asking for salvation, then I don't know what is. Then again, Alfred may insist that only he knows what would qualify as salvation. I hope he doesn't think he belongs to the First Church of Alfred. For then, Alfred would be the Savior, not Jesus. And that would be a serious problem, indeed.

 :-[
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: bogdan on September 05, 2010, 02:25:25 PM
For something to be profitable (ὠφέλιμος) it must have value. Incomprehensible language has no value:
So you say.  You do realize that you're first drawing conclusions, and then pulling up Scriptural proof texts to prove your conclusions?  That's not how exegesis works.

Yes, I behave precisely as primitive Orthodox do, the fathers. They cited scripture for their beliefs, not each other.

And yet, our beliefs are consistent with that of the Fathers, and yours are not. You are a major outlier. That the Fathers cited scripture is not incredible. Their agreement is what is incredible; their agreement is what makes them authoritative. We can cite the Fathers because they are consistent with scripture. Call it a proxy, if you like.

You don't agree with them, however. So why should be believe your interpretation when the universal church says you're wrong?
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Melodist on September 05, 2010, 02:27:59 PM
You contradict Paul's apostolic oral tradition that all who confess Christ is LORD publicly WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME...

You say all who reject the novelties Christians added to the apostolic faith centuries later, like icons, will be put to shame.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumie)
Quote
A fumi-e (Japanese: 踏み絵, fumi 'stepping-on' + e 'picture') was a likeness of Jesus or Mary upon which the religious authorities of the Tokugawa shogunate of Japan required suspected Christians to step on in order to prove that they were not members of that outlawed religion. The use of fumi-e began with the persecution of Christians in Nagasaki in 1629.

Does that really satisfy your intellectual needs? You aren't proving your beliefs are correct to me or anyone else. Its rather a commentary on how poorly you treat others.

No comment would have been better.

You put the showing of honor to images in direct opposition to confessing Christ. It was through refusing to dishonor His image that they publically confessed Him and gave their lives for Him. The two are not in opposition to each other. You keep pushing the idea that all Orthodox are without Christ because the venerate icons and that they need to come to Him. "Novelties" like icons are a way of confessing Christ as Lord. I don't know how this post is a mistreatment of anyone. I apoloize if some kind of wrong ahs been done, but you took something that is an example of part of how one can confess Christ and put that means of confession into mutual exclusive opposition of the very thing it does. You're calling a means by which martyrs expressed their faith and held onto it in the face of death to be something in opposition to confessing Christ as Lord.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: PeterTheAleut on September 05, 2010, 03:55:33 PM
For something to be profitable (ὠφέλιμος) it must have value. Incomprehensible language has no value:
So you say.  You do realize that you're first drawing conclusions, and then pulling up Scriptural proof texts to prove your conclusions?  That's not how exegesis works.

Yes, I behave precisely as primitive Orthodox do, the fathers. They cited scripture for their beliefs, not each other.

I am a primitive Orthodox, that is why I do what they did, cite scripture proof texts to prove my beliefs are apostolical, and not a discovery of my own.
One cannot just claim to be primitive Orthodox and expect others to recognize his claim as valid.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: PeterTheAleut on September 05, 2010, 04:03:08 PM
Alfred, do you believe in perssonal infallibility?
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: jnorm888 on September 05, 2010, 08:04:22 PM
Quote
You argue much of scripture isn't profitable for doctrine, that its incomprehensible without the consensus of the fathers weighing in, or the teaching of the Orthodox church.

Alfred, if the scriptures are completely comprehensible unto themselves, then why are there many different interpretations?

I can show you two people who feel deeply convicted about their beliefs about the "plain meaning" of any given verse, but have exactly the opposite belief. They both can have amazing exegesis, yet come to opposing conclusions.

The fact is, you have no objective foundation by which to judge anything. It's all about etymology, archaeology, and a feeling in your soul. Well congratulations, everyone from Jehovah's Witnesses to Quakers judge their beliefs by the same standards, and they all use more or less the same Bible.

Meanwhile, we use these things as well, but they are always held in check by the objective standard of St Vincent that DennyB mentions above. Since the Holy Spirit is not schizophrenic, he doesn't lead different people to different interpretations. Since the Church is one living organism, it is not divided against itself. And because of all that, the tradition of the Church is trustworthy. That is why the Church Herself is the pillar and ground of truth, because a faithful member of the Church cannot deviate from the very narrow path She has marked out for us, by the Spirit's universal guidance.

Meanwhile, you—sitting there with just your Bible and whatever commentaries you deem correct—are not inherently or objectively trustworthy. You're one man meandering about after feelings and "convictions", without even the ability to discern whether these "convictions" are in fact true, because you have no point of reference outside of yourself.

Your argument is "special pleading," you are holding scripture up to a standard no literature achieves. Every statement on earth, regardless how simple, has its meaning disputed...there are lots of reasons for this, sometimes its profit, sometimes its hate, but often its just human nature to get things wrong.

What should really excite you, prove to you the Bible is inspired by God and His Spirit is laboring to overcome fallen human nature, is the level of Christian agreement as to what the Bible teaches.

Fact is, if you boil off all our disagreements, we all (mainline Christendom)  agree 80% or more, as to what scripture says.

That is divine, no other literature on the planet is as diverse---given the Bible is 66 books written over 1,500 time span on three different continents by very different people in three different languages..., yet in such phenomenal agreement.

Given that reality, the agreement as to what it says is INCREDIBLE, clearly there must be a divine reason why there is this level of agreement, when any other document far less complex and ancient, results in far more disagreement.

I find this strange coming from someone who refuses to look at history.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: jnorm888 on September 05, 2010, 08:10:00 PM
Yes.  Alfred is never going to convince us of one iota of what he's saying as long as he starts from premises we don't accept.  We don't accept sola scriptura, so he will need to first convince us to embrace sola scriptura for us to find his constant proof texting from Scripture convincing.  And, ironically, he will need to convince us to embrace sola scriptura by citing authorities external to the Scriptures, and whom we recognize as speaking with authority.

He's also not going to convince us of anything as long as he keeps offending us by spouting his personal judgmental opinions of us.  One can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Fundamentally you must argue: 1)PeterTheAleut cannot understand scripture or 2)Paul is wrong believing scripture equips completely.

Given 2 Ti 3:16ff, which position exactly are you arguing.

Talking about outside authority is irrelevant, I am discussing scripture. You either 1)believe it; 2)Don't believe it; 3)Don't understand it.

Thanks in advance for making your position clear.

Your talking in so many directions,I really don't know what your point is,your the type of person who knows just enough to be dangerous, are you part of the Presbybaptistpenticostal denominations,or some other morphed denomination??

No.

Are you a one man denomination?
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: jnorm888 on September 05, 2010, 08:23:27 PM


Yes, I behave precisely as primitive Orthodox do, the fathers.

Can you name them? Who did you have in mind?


 
Quote
They cited scripture for their beliefs, not each other.

Do you read them? If not, then how could you really know? Did you know that Saint Hippolytus quotes Saint  Irenaeus? Did you know that Saint Irenaeus talks about Saints Polycarp and Papius?

They even quote non saints, or people that went awry later in life or the Church later in time saw as awry. Saint Cyprian quotes Tertullian, and some quote Origen.

Quote
I am a primitive Orthodox, that is why I do what they did, cite scripture proof texts to prove my beliefs are apostolical, and not a discovery of my own.

Do you know their rule of faith? Your rule of faith is not the same as theirs.



Quote
You cannot be serious comparing me to God, there is no contest. He is clear, perspicacious, I remain obscure...but I am trying to learn how to communicate by studying how God did it in Scripture...learning from the Master as it were. I have far to go.

So Korah didn't? Are you saying Arius wasn't trying to learn how to communicate by studying how God did it in Scripture? Are you saying that Sabellius wasn't trying to learn how to communicate by studying how God did it in Scripture?

Are you saying that the circumcision party wasn't trying to learn how to communicate by studying how God did it in Scripture?




Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: jnorm888 on September 05, 2010, 08:47:52 PM

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/polycarp.html (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/polycarp.html) (Saint Irenaeus mentions Saint Polycarp...at the bottom of the page)
Qoute:
"But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time, a man who was of much greater weight, and a more stedfast witness of truth, than Valentinus, and Marcion, and the rest of the heretics. He it was who, coming to Rome in the time of Anicetus caused many to turn away from the aforesaid heretics to the Church of God, proclaiming that he had received this one and sole truth from the apostles, that, namely, which is handed down by the Church. There are also those who heard from him that John, the disciple of the Lord, going to bathe at Ephesus, and perceiving Cerinthus within, rushed out of the bath-house without bathing, exclaiming, "Let us fly, lest even the bath-house fall down, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is within." And Polycarp himself replied to Marcion, who met him on one occasion, and said, "Dost thou know me? "I do know thee, the first-born of Satan." Such was the horror which the apostles and their disciples had against holding even verbal communication with any corrupters of the truth; as Paul also says, "A man that is an heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject; knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself." There is also a very powerful Epistle of Polycarp written to the Philippians, from which those who choose to do so, and are anxious about their salvation, can learn the character of his faith, and the preaching of the truth. Then, again, the Church in Ephesus, founded by Paul, and having John remaining among them permanently until the times of Trajan, is a true witness of the tradition of the apostles."
Saint Irenaeus 180 A.D. Adv. Haer., III.3.4.




As seen from above, Saint Irenaeus used not only Scripture, but also the life of Saint Polycarp. Also, as seen from the quote above, Saint Polycarp used what he knew personally to get many heretics to come back to the Church. He didn't have to use Scripture!


Tertullian
http://www.forerunner.com/churchfathers/X0067__4._Tertullian_-_De_.html (http://www.forerunner.com/churchfathers/X0067__4._Tertullian_-_De_.html) (TERTULLIAN - IV. THE CHAPLET, OR DE CORONA)
Quote:
"If, for these and other such rules, you insist
upon having positive Scripture injunction, you will find none. Tradition will be
held forth to you as the originator of them, custom as their strengthener, and
faith as their observer.
That reason will support tradition, and custom, and
faith, you will either yourself perceive, or learn from some one who has.
Meanwhile you will believe that there is some reason to which submission is
due."





We can go on to talk about the rule of faith. Tertullian, Saint Irenaeus, Saint Athanasius, and Saint Vincent of Lerins all talk about it.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 05, 2010, 10:42:00 PM
Don't mind me...I'm just feeling the love
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: biro on September 05, 2010, 11:12:04 PM
jnorm888: Thanks for posting a link to that site, I think I'm going to have a lot of fun reading from it.   ;D


Back to the topic: Alfred, I wonder if you have ever tried attending an Orthodox church? If you don't think you are ready to do that just yet, you may wish to do a simple search for the church nearest where you live, and perhaps write an e-mail or call the priest. Ask questions, ask for help-- I've found the people in my own parish to be very helpful and friendly as I got to know them. If nothing else, I don't think they'd mind letting you know about some interesting sources for further reading. If you ever feel up to it, you may even wish to try sitting in on a service of Vespers or Orthros. There's no Communion given out at these two in particular, so you don't have to worry about that, and they generally run between 50-70 minutes at the outside.

And if even this does not suit you, some more online searches should turn up Orthodox church websites which post live and archived video broadcasts of their services, so you can see what they're doing in there. In my own experience, I read, heard, watched clips and so on, but it was when I went to church that it all 'clicked' for me. You may find that the Orthodox are not such rare 'creatures' (pardon the term) as you seem to think. Believe it or not, you might like them.

Oh, and many parishes have an after-church social hour, with coffee and donuts. Donuts!  ;D Who does not like these?   :D

Good luck to you.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: jnorm888 on September 06, 2010, 01:12:51 AM


Yes, I behave precisely as primitive Orthodox do, the fathers.

Can you name them? Who did you have in mind?


 
Quote
They cited scripture for their beliefs, not each other.

Do you read them? If not, then how could you really know? Did you know that Saint Hippolytus quotes Saint  Irenaeus? Did you know that Saint Irenaeus talks about Saints Polycarp and Papius?

They even quote non saints, or people that went awry later in life or the Church later in time saw as awry. Saint Cyprian quotes Tertullian, and some quote Origen.

Quote
I am a primitive Orthodox, that is why I do what they did, cite scripture proof texts to prove my beliefs are apostolical, and not a discovery of my own.

Do you know their rule of faith? Your rule of faith is not the same as theirs.



Quote
You cannot be serious comparing me to God, there is no contest. He is clear, perspicacious, I remain obscure...but I am trying to learn how to communicate by studying how God did it in Scripture...learning from the Master as it were. I have far to go.

So Korah didn't? Are you saying Arius wasn't trying to learn how to communicate by studying how God did it in Scripture? Are you saying that Sabellius wasn't trying to learn how to communicate by studying how God did it in Scripture?

Are you saying that the circumcision party wasn't trying to learn how to communicate by studying how God did it in Scripture?


I forgot to mention that they also quoted from the D.C.'s/Anagignoskomena as Scripture. This is something you don't do:

http://orthodox-apologetics.blogspot.com/2010/08/book-of-wisdom-early-christians.html (http://orthodox-apologetics.blogspot.com/2010/08/book-of-wisdom-early-christians.html) (The Book of Wisdom & Early Christians)


Quote:
“What synagogue of wicked men encompasses me [Ps. 22:16b], they surround me as bees around honey [Ps. 118:12a], and for my garments they cast lots [Ps. 22:18b].
7. Thus, since he was about to be manifested in flesh and to suffer, his passion was revealed beforehand. 7b. For the prophet says concerning Israel:
Who to them, for they devised a wicked plot against themselves when they said, “Let us bind the Righteous One, for he is displeasing to us” [Isa. 3:9b-10a; see Wisd. 2:12]. Barnabas (70 A.D.) page 277 “The Apostolic Fathers” edited by Jack N. Sparks


“Both the Virginity of Mary and her giving birth escaped the notice of the prince of this age, as did the Lord’s death-three mysteries of a cry, wrought in the stillness of God. 2 How then was he made manifest to the ages? A star shone forth in heaven brighter than all the stars, and its light was ineffable and its novelty produced astonishment; all the other stars, with sun and moon, gathered in chorus about this star, and it outshone them all [cf. Wisd. 7:29,30; 18:14,15]. There was perplexity as to the origin of this novelty, so unlike the others. 3. Thus all magic was dissolved and every bond of wickedness [cf. Isa. 58:6] vanished; ignorance was abolished and the old kingdom was destroyed, since God was becoming manifest in human form for the newness of eternal life [cf. Rom. 6:4]; what had been prepared by God [cf. 1 Cor. 2:9] had its beginning. Hence everything was shaken together, for the abolition of death was being planned." Ignatius (110 A.D.) page 83 “The letters of Ignatius of Antioch Ephesians” “The Apostolic Fathers”, edited by Jack N. Sparks


“Having this hope, then, let our souls be bound to him who is faithful to his promises [cf. Heb. 10:23] and just in his judgments. 2. He it is who commanded us not to lie: how much the more will he not lie himself! For the one thing that is impossible to god is to be false [cf. Heb. 6:18]. 3. Let our faith in him then be rekindled in us, and bear in mind that all things are near him. 4. By the word of his majesty he established all things, and by his word he can bring them to nought. 5. “Who will say to him, “What have you done?’ Or who can stand against the might of his power?” [Wisd. 12:12; 11:22]. When he wills and as he wills he shall accomplished all things, and not one of the things he has decreed can fail. 6. All things lie open to his sight, and nothing has escaped his will, 7. since “the heavens are telling the glory of God, and the firmament proclaims his handiwork; day to day pours forth speech and night to night declares knowledge; yet there are neither words nor speech, and their voices are not heard” [Ps. 19:1-3]. 1st Clement (90A.D.) page 33 “The letter of Clement of Rome to Corinth” “The Apostolic Fathers” edited by Jack N. Sparks


“For this reason righteousness and peace stand at a distance, while each one has abandoned the fear of God and become nearly blind with respect to faith in him, neither walking according to the laws of his commandments nor living in accordance with his duty toward Christ. Instead, all follow the lusts of their evil heart, inasmuch as they have assumed that attitude of unrighteous and ungodly jealously through which, in fact, death entered into the world.” [Wisdom 2:24] 1st Clement (90 A.D.) page 49 “First Clement salutation” 3.4 Michael W. Holmes, “The Apostolic Fathers: 3rd edition”

(The book of Wisdom was compiled as Scripture in some regions of the Church along with New Testament books)
“There are extant also a letter to the Laodikeians, and another to the Alexandrians, forged in Paulus' name to further Markion's school of thought. And there are many others which cannot be received into the universal assembly, for "it is not fitting for vinegar to be mixed with honey."
“Indeed, the letter of Judah, and two entitled Johannes, are accepted in the universal assembly, along with the Wisdom, written by the friends of Solomon in his honor. We receive also the Revelations of Johannes and Peter, the latter of which some refuse to have read in the assembly.” Muratorian Fragment (155 A.D.) http://www.friktech.com/rel/muratori.htm


(Tertullian calls the book of Wisdom a Christian authority)
“However, Dicæarchus has several authorities against him— and philosophers too— Plato, Strato, Epicurus, Democritus, Empedocles, Socrates, Aristotle; while in opposition to Andreas and Asclepiades (may be placed their brother) physicians Herophilus, Erasistratus, Diocles, Hippocrates, and Soranus himself; and better than all others, there are our Christian authorities. We are taught by God concerning both these questions— viz. that there is a ruling power in the soul, and that it is enshrined in one particular recess of the body. For, when one reads of God as being the searcher and witness of the heart; [Wisdom 1:6] when His prophet is reproved by His discovering to him the secrets of the heart; [Proverbs 24:12] when God Himself anticipates in His people the thoughts of their heart, Why do you think evil in your hearts?” Tertullian (155-250) http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0310.htm


(in talking about the book of Wisdom)
“. I produce now the prophecy of Solomon, which speaks of Christ, and announces clearly and perspicuously things concerning the Jews; and those which not only are befalling them at the present time, but those, too, which shall befall them in the future age, on account of the contumacy and audacity which they exhibited toward the Prince of Life; for the prophet says, The ungodly said, reasoning with themselves, but not aright, that is, about Christ, Let us lie in wait for the righteous, because he is not for our turn, and he is clean contrary to our doings and words, and upbraids us with our offending the law, and professes to have knowledge of God; and he calls himself the Child of God. And then he says, He is grievous to us even to behold; for his life is not like other men's, and his ways are of another fashion. We are esteemed of him as counterfeits, and he abstains from our ways as from filthiness, and pronounces the end of the just to be blessed. And again, listen to this, O Jew! None of the righteous or prophets called himself the Son of God. And therefore, as in the person of the Jews, solomon speaks again of this righteous one, who is Christ, thus: He was made to reprove our thoughts, and he makes his boast that God is his Father. Let us see, then, if his words be true, and let us prove what shall happen in the end of him; for if the just man be the Son of God, He will help him, and deliver him from the hand of his enemies. Let us condemn him with a shameful death, for by his own saying he shall be respected.” Hippolytus (170 A.D. -235 A.D.) “Against the Jews”
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0503.htm


“The divine Wisdom says of the martyrs, “They seemed in the eyes of the foolish to die, and their departure was reckoned a calamity, and their migration from us an affliction. But they are in peace. For though in the sight of men they were punished, their hope was full of immortality.”28312831 Wisd. iii. 2, 3, 4. [Ws 3:1-4] He then adds, teaching martyrdom to be a glorious purification, “And being chastened a little, they shall be benefited much; because God proved them,” that is, suffered them to be tried, to put them to the proof, and to put to shame the author of their trial, “and found them worthy of Himself,” plainly to be called sons." Clement of Alexandria (150 A.D.-216 A.D.) “The Stromata 4:16”
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.iv.iv.xv.html


“The Holy Spirit shows and predicts by Solomon, saying: “And although in the sight of men they suffered torments, yet their hope is full of immortality. And having been troubled in a few things, they shall be in many happily ordered, because God has tried them, and has found them worthy of Himself. As gold in the furnace, He hath tried them; and as whole burnt-offerings of sacrifice, He hath received them, and in its season there will be respect of them. They will shine and run about as sparks in a place set with reeds. In many editions this clause is wanting. They shall judge the nations, and have dominion over the peoples; and their Lord shall reign for ever.” [Wisdom 3:4] In the same also our vengeance is described, and the repentance of those who persecute and molest us is announced.” Cyprian (200A.D.-258A.D.) ch 12 “Exhortation to Martydom”
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf05.iv.v.xi.xiv.html


“The prophet threatens that evils will be kindled by the north wind upon all who inhabit the earth. Now the north wind is described in holy Scripture as cold, according to the statement in the book of Wisdom, That cold north wind; Sirach 43:20 which same thing also must undoubtedly be understood of the devil.” Origen (180A.D.-230A.D.) “De principiis”
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04122.htm


(at this time Jews rejected the book, and it’s possible that a few Christians did too…like Africanus, but most Christians thought it was scripture, Origen included)
“And if this word matter should happen to occur in any other passage, it will never be found, in my opinion, to have the signification of which we are now in quest, unless perhaps in the book which is called the Wisdom of Solomon, a work which is certainly not esteemed authoritative by all. In that book, however, we find written as follows: For your almighty hand, that made the world out of shapeless matter, wanted not means to send among them a multitude of bears and fierce lions.” Origen(180A.D.-230A.D.) “De Principiis”
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04124.htm


“By this drowning, however, it is not to be supposed that God's providence as regards Pharaoh was terminated; for we must not imagine, because he was drowned, that therefore he had forthwith completely perished: for in the hand of God are both we and our words; all wisdom, also, and knowledge of workmanship, as Scripture declares.[Wisdom 7:16]” Origen(180A.D.-230A.D.) “De Principiis” Book 3 http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04123.htm


(at this time Jews rejected the book, and it’s possible that a few Christians did too…like Africanus, but most Christians thought it was scripture, Origen included)

“And if this word matter should happen to occur in any other passage, it will never be found, in my opinion, to have the signification of which we are now in quest, unless perhaps in the book which is called the Wisdom of Solomon, a work which is certainly not esteemed authoritative by all. In that book, however, we find written as follows: For your almighty hand, that made the world out of shapeless matter, wanted not means to send among them a multitude of bears and fierce lions.” Origen(180A.D.-230A.D.) “De Principiis” http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04124.htm


“By this drowning, however, it is not to be supposed that God's providence as regards Pharaoh was terminated; for we must not imagine, because he was drowned, that therefore he had forthwith completely perished: for in the hand of God are both we and our words; all wisdom, also, and knowledge of workmanship, as Scripture declares." [Wisdom 7:16]”Origen(180A.D.-230A.D.) “De Principiis” Book 3
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04123.htm


“But Marcella, interrupting, said, O Theophila, there appears here a great mistake, and something contrary to what you have said; and do you think to escape under cover of the cloud which you have thrown around you? For there comes that argument, which perhaps any one who addresses you as a very wise person will bring forward: What do you say of those who are begotten unlawfully in adultery? For you laid it down that it was inconceivable and impossible for any one to enter into the world unless he was introduced by the will of the divine Ruler, his frame being prepared for him by God. And that you may not take refuge behind a safe wall, bringing forward the Scripture which says, 'As for the children of the adulterers, they shall not come to their perfection, ' Wisdom 3:16 he will answer you easily, that we often see those who are unlawfully begotten coming to perfection like ripe fruit.” Methodius (311 A.D.) http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/062302.htm


“If she were, in some fit of weakness, to admit the defilement to her heart, she would herself have broken the covenant of her spiritual marriage; and, as the Scripture tells us, into the malicious soul Wisdom cannot come Wisdom 1:4 .” Saint Gregory (385A.D.) http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2907.htm
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: jnorm888 on September 06, 2010, 01:27:37 AM
Don't mind me...I'm just feeling the love

You refused to answer our Roman Catholic friend Papist. He mentioned:
2 Thess 2:15
"So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter."

Your interpretation of 2Ti 3:16-17 goes against what Paul said in 2nd Thess 2:15

 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)
 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.


According to you, only the 66 books you accept were given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

Not only that but you believe only Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

This goes against what Paul said in 2nd Thess 2:15.

It would seem as if the correct interpretation is one of "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness....etc. But so are other things.....like what Saint Paul said orally.





ICXC NIKA
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 06, 2010, 09:22:09 AM
Don't mind me...I'm just feeling the love

You refused to answer our Roman Catholic friend Papist. He mentioned:
2 Thess 2:15
"So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter."

Your interpretation of 2Ti 3:16-17 goes against what Paul said in 2nd Thess 2:15

 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)
 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.


According to you, only the 66 books you accept were given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

Not only that but you believe only Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

This goes against what Paul said in 2nd Thess 2:15.

It would seem as if the correct interpretation is one of "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness....etc. But so are other things.....like what Saint Paul said orally.





ICXC NIKA

Oh that tired argument, I put it to rest years ago...let me dig into my archives...

1)Oral tradition became scripture:    

At about 51-52 AD Paul' commanded obedience to both apostolic word and letter, so both coexisted at that time.    

2 Th 2:15  Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.      

BUT a chronological list of NT books has 2 Thessalonians as the 6th NT, a full 21 bible books were written after that.    

Even in 2 Thessalonians we see the process of oral becoming written:    

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you this? (2Th 2:5 RSV)    

The process continued throughout the writing of the NT (AD. 68-70):      

17 But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;    
 
18 they said to you, "In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions."    (Jud 1:17-18 RSV)    


2)All necessary oral tradition exists today in the Bible:    

 Paul wrote about A.D. 67, before the last Bible Book was written, that scripture THEN contained all necessary to be complete, equipped for every good work. In vs. 17 He says this is why God wrote the Bible, to fully equip men of God for every good work, such as, for example, knowing true doctrine so one can teach it faithfully to others:    


16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,    

17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-1 RSV)    

 


Your argument gets confused when you link this to the canon. Paul seems to be referring to the OT alone as "all scripture" because he speaks of the time when "Timothy was a child:"

NKJ  2 Timothy 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2Ti 3:15 NKJ)

2 Tim was written about 67 AD, in Paul's culture one is a child until twelve. So if Timothy is in his late twenties, then this is pushed back at about 15 years leaving only the Old Testament and synoptic gospels and perhaps a couple of letters, James and Galatians.

So Paul's point is even more powerful, as scripture then could make the child Timothy wise INTO (eis) salvation, how much more can it now that we have the completed New Testament.

Paul's statements are made in history, that oral tradition and scripture coexisted for a time does not meant that is the case today, the NT is completed.

What make Catholics and Orthodox inconsistent is the fact the canon is closed. If the Word of God were being channeled through them in any way, their words would be scripture...the canon would still be undefined, open.

So Catholics, East and West contradict themselves, but agree with me, the canon is closed. It is irrelevant to my point we disagree what books are canon, what is material is we all agree its closed.





Post modified to replace forbidden epithet with an acceptable alternative.

If you are speaking or referring to a particular poster on this forum who self-identifies as Papist, then feel free to address him by the username he has chosen for himself.  Otherwise, we do not permit the use of "Papist" as an epithet, since the majority of Catholics deem the label very insulting.

- PtA
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Papist on September 06, 2010, 09:44:10 AM
^
1. Alfred, you have not really offered evidence for you position. You have simply asserted your postion again.
2. Are you saying that there was a time when Sola Scriptura was not true, but then became true? So I guess you do not agree with the bible when it says that the faith was "once and for all delivered unto the saints," because you allow for a change in doctrine.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: bogdan on September 06, 2010, 10:28:37 AM
So if the Scriptures were complete and capable of leading people to salvation at the time of St Paul, then clearly we should be Jews, because the Gospels and Epistles were not considered scripture (in the sense that the Old Testament is scripture) until at least several decades after the Apostles died.

If Alfred had held his present beliefs in the first century, he would indeed have been a Jew, because the Christians radically reinterpreted a lot of OT scripture. That's why the Jews were so upset with Christians, because they felt their religion was being hijacked by heretics.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: genesisone on September 06, 2010, 10:43:52 AM
2)All necessary oral tradition exists today in the Bible:   

 Paul wrote about A.D. 67, before the last Bible Book was written, that scripture THEN contained all necessary to be complete, equipped for every good work. In vs. 17 He says this is why God wrote the Bible, to fully equip men of God for every good work, such as, for example, knowing true doctrine so one can teach it faithfully to others:   
...

What make Papists and Orthodox inconsistent is the fact the canon is closed. If the Word of God were being channeled through them in any way, their words would be scripture...the canon would still be undefined, open.

So Catholics, East and West contradict themselves, but agree with me, the canon is closed. It is irrelevant to my point we disagree what books are canon, what is material is we all agree its closed.

The Orthodox Church has provided us (and that includes you, Alfred) with the writings that it deems canonical. I would appreciate correction from other Orthodox Christians if necessary, but I'm not aware that the word "closed" is appropriate in regards to the canon, though I will agree to the term "fixed". We aren't dogmatic about what we don't know, about what hasn't been revealed to us.

You are still adding the word "only" when you write about the profitability, etc. of Scripture. We understand that the Holy Scriptures are the inspired written record of God's revelation to and interaction with His people. The key for us is God's revelation of Himself, which is ongoing and alive. We, unlike you, are not like the Muslims or Mormons whose Scriptures were handed to them intact supposedly written by God Himself (yes, you have said that - see my reminder in the next paragraph), and outside of a living relationship with God.

God is not found in a book - which is exactly what you are saying when you declare that "God wrote the Bible, to fully equip men of God for every good work, such as, for example, knowing true doctrine so one can teach it faithfully to others". He is found in a living relationship. 
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: biro on September 06, 2010, 01:35:16 PM
Quote from: Alfred Persson
All necessary oral tradition exists today in the Bible

But it's written.

Do a Google search for "oral Torah." Here's the first thing that comes up. (Not counting the ads.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_Torah

Our Lord during His life on Earth was called "Rabboni," our teacher, by his Jewish neighbors, and it's kind of interesting to get a look at what informed life and thought in those times. Just an aside. Now back to the other question in the post.

Quote from: Alfred Persson
So Catholics, East and West contradict themselves, but agree with me, the canon is closed. It is irrelevant to my point we disagree what books are canon, what is material is we all agree its closed.

What you don't agree with, oddly enough, is that the thing which made it 'canonical' in the first place was the Ecumenical Council which decided what books belong in the Bible and what don't. Because if you did, you'd have to, in good conscience, try to find a church which was traceable to these roots... in other words, the Orthodox Church. So you tout the authority of the Bible, but you resist the standing of the very church whom the Lord in his mercy guided to give us the Bible.  ??? I'm sorry things have come to this.

I fear for you that you don't seem to accept or acknowledge any barometer other than your own. Please try not to let your self-assurance turn into a bad version of itself.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: PeterTheAleut on September 06, 2010, 03:46:16 PM

2)All necessary oral tradition exists today in the Bible:    

 Paul wrote about A.D. 67, before the last Bible Book was written, that scripture THEN contained all necessary to be complete, equipped for every good work. In vs. 17 He says this is why God wrote the Bible, to fully equip men of God for every good work, such as, for example, knowing true doctrine so one can teach it faithfully to others:    


16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,    

17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-1 RSV)    

 
That's a non sequitur argument, since your conclusion that all necessary oral tradition now exists in the Bible does not follow at all from your premise that God wrote the Bible that we may be fully equipped.  The fact that God inspired the writing of the Scriptures that we may be fully equipped does not preclude other forms of divine revelation that God made to us for the same purpose.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 06, 2010, 05:10:53 PM

2)All necessary oral tradition exists today in the Bible:    

 Paul wrote about A.D. 67, before the last Bible Book was written, that scripture THEN contained all necessary to be complete, equipped for every good work. In vs. 17 He says this is why God wrote the Bible, to fully equip men of God for every good work, such as, for example, knowing true doctrine so one can teach it faithfully to others:    


16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,    

17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-1 RSV)    

 
That's a non sequitur argument, since your conclusion that all necessary oral tradition now exists in the Bible does not follow at all from your premise that God wrote the Bible that we may be fully equipped.  The fact that God inspired the writing of the Scriptures that we may be fully equipped does not preclude other forms of divine revelation that God made to us for the same purpose.

No, it follows, Paul says the Bible completely equips, therefore it does.

BUT this is the second time (or more) you inferred I say this excludes other forms of divine revelation.

I don't say that at all.

Its always possible God grant a vision, dream, or send an angel.

What I say is I test anything outside of scripture, by scripture. So even if I had a vision, and discovered it contradicted the Bible, I would reject the vision.

That's what "sola scriptura" means, not that we deny tradition or any teaching outside of the Bible as being true or potentially helpful.

Sola scriptura means scripture alone is the undisputed infallible word of God, everything else has less authority, so when these conflict, scripture is accepted and the other rejected.


I do argue, as God makes me complete for every good work, via scripture, I do not need church traditions to be complete. Perhaps that is what you meant


Regarding that, I make the following argument against both Catholic and Orthodox tradition:

As both God and Paul say scripture is able to make wise EIS "into" salvation and that scripture completely equips for every good work, which necessarily includes the good work of teaching the Christian faith to others...


To have tradition equal to Scripure in authority is either superfluous or pernicious.


IF Tradition agrees with Scripture, its superfluous.
If Tradition disagrees with Scripture, its pernicious.

As Tradition must either agree or disagree with scripture, Tradition is either superfluous or pernicious.

Therefore Tradition is either unnecessary, or poisonous, we are best off without it.



Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: bogdan on September 06, 2010, 05:32:11 PM
[edit] Premature post, sorry.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: DennyB on September 06, 2010, 06:07:55 PM

2)All necessary oral tradition exists today in the Bible:    

 Paul wrote about A.D. 67, before the last Bible Book was written, that scripture THEN contained all necessary to be complete, equipped for every good work. In vs. 17 He says this is why God wrote the Bible, to fully equip men of God for every good work, such as, for example, knowing true doctrine so one can teach it faithfully to others:    


16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,    

17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-1 RSV)    

 
That's a non sequitur argument, since your conclusion that all necessary oral tradition now exists in the Bible does not follow at all from your premise that God wrote the Bible that we may be fully equipped.  The fact that God inspired the writing of the Scriptures that we may be fully equipped does not preclude other forms of divine revelation that God made to us for the same purpose.

No, it follows, Paul says the Bible completely equips, therefore it does.

BUT this is the second time (or more) you inferred I say this excludes other forms of divine revelation.

I don't say that at all.

Its always possible God grant a vision, dream, or send an angel.

What I say is I test anything outside of scripture, by scripture. So even if I had a vision, and discovered it contradicted the Bible, I would reject the vision.

That's what "sola scriptura" means, not that we deny tradition or any teaching outside of the Bible as being true or potentially helpful.

Sola scriptura means scripture alone is the undisputed infallible word of God, everything else has less authority, so when these conflict, scripture is accepted and the other rejected.


I do argue, as God makes me complete for every good work, via scripture, I do not need church traditions to be complete. Perhaps that is what you meant


Regarding that, I make the following argument against both Catholic and Orthodox tradition:

As both God and Paul say scripture is able to make wise EIS "into" salvation and that scripture completely equips for every good work, which necessarily includes the good work of teaching the Christian faith to others...


To have tradition equal to Scripure in authority is either superfluous or pernicious.


IF Tradition agrees with Scripture, its superfluous.
If Tradition disagrees with Scripture, its pernicious.

As Tradition must either agree or disagree with scripture, Tradition is either superfluous or pernicious.

Therefore Tradition is either unnecessary, or poisonous, we are best off without it.





No,it is the Tradition of Persson that is superfluous,a tradition that was derived from His understanding of what scripture says to him personally,please go somewhere else with your heresy!!
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: PeterTheAleut on September 06, 2010, 06:08:09 PM

2)All necessary oral tradition exists today in the Bible:    

 Paul wrote about A.D. 67, before the last Bible Book was written, that scripture THEN contained all necessary to be complete, equipped for every good work. In vs. 17 He says this is why God wrote the Bible, to fully equip men of God for every good work, such as, for example, knowing true doctrine so one can teach it faithfully to others:    


16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,    

17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-1 RSV)    

 
That's a non sequitur argument, since your conclusion that all necessary oral tradition now exists in the Bible does not follow at all from your premise that God wrote the Bible that we may be fully equipped.  The fact that God inspired the writing of the Scriptures that we may be fully equipped does not preclude other forms of divine revelation that God made to us for the same purpose.

No, it follows, Paul says the Bible completely equips, therefore it does.

BUT this is the second time (or more) you inferred I say this excludes other forms of divine revelation.
No.  I responded only to your explicit assertion that all necessary oral tradition exists today in the Bible.  This DOES NOT follow from your statement of the Bible's purpose.

I don't say that at all.

Its always possible God grant a vision, dream, or send an angel.

What I say is I test anything outside of scripture, by scripture. So even if I had a vision, and discovered it contradicted the Bible, I would reject the vision.
That we do also, for we too believe that Tradition cannot contradict the Scriptures.  Open contradiction of the Scriptures, however, is not the same as absence from the Scriptures.

That's what "sola scriptura" means, not that we deny tradition or any teaching outside of the Bible as being true or potentially helpful.

Sola scriptura means scripture alone is the undisputed infallible word of God, everything else has less authority, so when these conflict, scripture is accepted and the other rejected.
But that's not what you're arguing here.  You argue as if absence from the Scriptures and contradiction of the Scriptures are one and the same thing.  As I stated above, they are not.  Something isn't to be rejected merely because it's not found in the Scriptures, yet that's what you do and what you counsel us to do.

I do argue, as God makes me complete for every good work, via scripture, I do not need church traditions to be complete. Perhaps that is what you meant
What we are saying is that Scripture is sufficient to make us complete for every good work, but that the Scriptures need to be interpreted properly to be effective.  It seems that you actually agree with this, since you've been working so hard to present to us what you believe to be the correct interpretation of Scripture.  If Scripture alone was sufficient, why would you deem it so important to interpret the Scriptures for us?  You see, even you believe that the Scriptures need proper interpretation to be effective in equipping us for good works.  You just don't believe that the Church is qualified to give us this proper interpretation, so you substitute your own in its place.

Regarding that, I make the following argument against both Catholic and Orthodox tradition:

As both God and Paul say scripture is able to make wise EIS "into" salvation and that scripture completely equips for every good work, which necessarily includes the good work of teaching the Christian faith to others...


To have tradition equal to Scripure in authority is either superfluous or pernicious.
I've got news for you, Alfred.  The Orthodox don't elevate Tradition to the level of authority only Scripture has for us.  I can't speak for Catholics, since I never was one, but I can safely say that for the Orthodox, Scripture is part of Tradition, yet Scripture is supremely authoritative within Tradition.  Tradition flows forth from Scripture, returns to Scripture, and cannot be separated from Scripture.  Even so, Tradition is necessary for guiding us into a proper interpretation of the Scriptures.  Without the guidance of Tradition, one cannot be sure that his interpretation of Scripture is correct.

IF Tradition agrees with Scripture, its superfluous.
Again, Tradition is not something separate from Scripture that we oppose to Scripture.  Rather, as our own theologian Vladimir Lossky once said, Tradition is the life of the Holy Spirit in the Church.  Of this life of the Holy Spirit in the Church, the Scriptures are the supremely authoritative product and guide.  Nothing can contradict the Scriptures without it also contradicting Tradition, since contradiction of Scripture IS a contradiction of Tradition.

If Tradition disagrees with Scripture, its pernicious.

As Tradition must either agree or disagree with scripture, Tradition is either superfluous or pernicious.

Therefore Tradition is either unnecessary, or poisonous, we are best off without it.

You know what, Alfred?  You make the fundamental Protestant (and Roman Catholic, in the sense that this relation of Scripture to Tradition is also a bone of contention between Orthodox and Catholics) mistake of seeing Scripture and Tradition as two different bodies of knowledge, one of which is necessary and the other of which is totally unnecessary and/or even opposed to the one.  As I've said before, this is simply not the case for the Orthodox, which makes your arguments into a bit of a straw man.  To us, Scripture and Tradition are merely different ways of speaking about the same thing:  God's revelation of Himself to man.  Scripture is Tradition and the chief authority therein, and Tradition is Scripture properly interpreted.  Attack Tradition, and you attack the very foundation of your Scriptures, thus rendering Scripture meaningless.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: bogdan on September 06, 2010, 06:08:25 PM
Alfred, I say this in love, but you have once again demonstrated that you don't understand how we view the relationship between Scripture and Tradition. (You also don't seem to quite understand what Tradition even is.)

They are not two separate entities that we judge against each other. Rather, the Scriptures are a part of Tradition, and so they cannot contradict each other. But Tradition cannot be superfluous beside Scripture, because Scripture is a part of Tradition. If Tradition is superfluous, then Scripture, which is under the umbrella of Tradition, is too. In other words, Scripture does not sit beside Tradition. Scripture is a type of Tradition (the most important type, in fact), besides Iconography, Liturgy, the Fathers, etc.

What does that mean? It means that if some practice or teaching of the Church contradicts any part of Tradition, including Scripture, that practice or teaching cannot itself become part of Tradition. Tradition is self-regulating. If something doesn't belong, it quite naturally falls away.

Tradition is the entire life of the Church in all places and times. Therefore everything, including scripture, falls under the auspices of Tradition. You can't call Tradition superfluous if Tradition is everything.

I suppose if you wanted to draw an analogy, you could say Tradition is to Essence as Scripture, Icons, the Fathers, etc are to Energies.

And you present a false dilemma. On those same grounds, having four Gospels is superfluous because most of the stories are exactly the same. (And they disagree on some details, so clearly some of the gospels are false.) However, we say the four Gospels are necessary because their similarity proves they are all true. If there was only one Gospel, we wouldn't know if it was true or not. Anyone can write a book that says anything, but when you have four independent books that agree, you establish validity.

That is what I have been trying to say about interpretation. Anyone can say the Bible says anything. What proves its validity is when the entire Church comes to the same conclusion. When it's just Alfred Persson, that's meaningless. When it's the whole Church, and all of Tradition (ie, the Scriptures, the Fathers, the Hymns, the Icons, everything), that indicates something is true.

All these facets of Tradition, among other things, create a giant circuit of checks and balances that protects the ancient truth from being corrupted by every John Q who has a new take on what the Bible means. That is impossible in the world of Sola Scriptura, because every man, woman, and child thinks it says something different—and has the exegesis to prove it.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 07, 2010, 03:49:05 AM
^
1. Alfred, you have not really offered evidence for you position. You have simply asserted your postion again.
2. Are you saying that there was a time when Sola Scriptura was not true, but then became true? So I guess you do not agree with the bible when it says that the faith was "once and for all delivered unto the saints," because you allow for a change in doctrine.


Sola scriptura (Only Scripture) is sola verbum dei today (only word of God):

 27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest asked them,
 28 saying, "Did we not strictly command you not to teach in this name? And look, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this Man's blood on us!"
 29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men.
 (Act 5:27-29 NKJ)

The word of man is not equal to the word of God = sola verbum dei.

Peter was applying the teaching of Christ.

 2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
 3 "Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.
 (Mat 23:2-3 NKJ)

In ancient times books were too expensive for most to own, so they learned God's Word via the synagogue. But its teachers were often hypocrites who didn't follow it themselves. Christ said the authority of the word of God remains undiminished by their hypocrisy = sola verbum dei or sola scriptura.

Hence our LORD objected to following tradition against the Word of God:

 13 "making the word of God of no effect through your tradition (Mar 7:13 NKJ)

Sola Verbum Dei therefore = sola scriptura when the Word of God exists only in Scripture.

Only during that brief period before the word of God becomes scripture, do we practice sola verbum dei by obeying scripture + tradition:

 13 ...word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God,(1Th 2:13 NKJ)

 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. (2Th 2:15 NKJ)

But that period ended when apostolic preaching was captured in these Bible books and those written after Paul said this.


As the Word of God today exists only in scripture, "sola scriptura".


Sola Verbum Dei. It is apostolic doctrine the word of God came TO the church,  not THROUGH it:

 36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 (1Co 14:36-38 NKJ)

So we who belong to The Way, who are careful followers of genuine apostolic traditions, reject equating the word of man with Word of God, only the Word of God has supreme authority over us.

To all who would be king, who would have us apostatize from our LORD Jesus Christ and follow the word of man, We repeat verbatim apostle Peter's words to the magisteriuim of his time:


"We ought to obey God rather than men.  (Act 5:29 NKJ)


Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: DennyB on September 07, 2010, 05:06:03 AM
^
1. Alfred, you have not really offered evidence for you position. You have simply asserted your postion again.
2. Are you saying that there was a time when Sola Scriptura was not true, but then became true? So I guess you do not agree with the bible when it says that the faith was "once and for all delivered unto the saints," because you allow for a change in doctrine.


Sola scriptura (Only Scripture) is sola verbum dei today (only word of God):

 27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest asked them,
 28 saying, "Did we not strictly command you not to teach in this name? And look, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this Man's blood on us!"
 29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men.
 (Act 5:27-29 NKJ)

The word of man is not equal to the word of God = sola verbum dei.

Peter was applying the teaching of Christ.

 2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
 3 "Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.
 (Mat 23:2-3 NKJ)

In ancient times books were too expensive for most to own, so they learned God's Word via the synagogue. But its teachers were often hypocrites who didn't follow it themselves. Christ said the authority of the word of God remains undiminished by their hypocrisy = sola verbum dei or sola scriptura.

Hence our LORD objected to following tradition against the Word of God:

 13 "making the word of God of no effect through your tradition (Mar 7:13 NKJ)

Sola Verbum Dei therefore = sola scriptura when the Word of God exists only in Scripture.

Only during that brief period before the word of God becomes scripture, do we practice sola verbum dei by obeying scripture + tradition:

 13 ...word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God,(1Th 2:13 NKJ)

 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. (2Th 2:15 NKJ)

But that period ended when apostolic preaching was captured in these Bible books and those written after Paul said this.


As the Word of God today exists only in scripture, "sola scriptura".


Sola Verbum Dei. It is apostolic doctrine the word of God came TO the church,  not THROUGH it:

 36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 (1Co 14:36-38 NKJ)

So we who belong to The Way, who are careful followers of genuine apostolic traditions, reject equating the word of man with Word of God, only the Word of God has supreme authority over us.

To all who would be king, who would have us apostatize from our LORD Jesus Christ and follow the word of man, We repeat verbatim apostle Peter's words to the magisteriuim of his time:


"We ought to obey God rather than men.  (Act 5:29 NKJ)




It is arrogant of you to think that your understanding of Scripture is the Word of God,and our understanding is not!! You rely on "Knowledge and Reason" to arrive at your conclusions,Orthodoxy relies on "the Faith once delivered". You expect us to believe that someone who is almost 2000 years removed from those who actually experienced This Faith,and preserved it through the centuries,to come along and tell us different,not hardly!
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: genesisone on September 07, 2010, 06:50:10 AM

Sola Verbum Dei therefore = sola scriptura when the Word of God exists only in Scripture.

Only during that brief period before the word of God becomes scripture, do we practice sola verbum dei by obeying scripture + tradition:

 13 ...word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God,(1Th 2:13 NKJ)

 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. (2Th 2:15 NKJ)

But that period ended when apostolic preaching was captured in these Bible books and those written after Paul said this.


As the Word of God today exists only in scripture, "sola scriptura".

How sad that your God is confined to the pages of a book.

BTW, if "sola verbum dei" is supposed to be Latin, it is grammatically nonsensical. Is this an expression invented by people like you to describe beliefs invented by people like you?
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: DennyB on September 07, 2010, 12:40:12 PM

Sola Verbum Dei therefore = sola scriptura when the Word of God exists only in Scripture.

Only during that brief period before the word of God becomes scripture, do we practice sola verbum dei by obeying scripture + tradition:

 13 ...word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God,(1Th 2:13 NKJ)

 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. (2Th 2:15 NKJ)

But that period ended when apostolic preaching was captured in these Bible books and those written after Paul said this.


As the Word of God today exists only in scripture, "sola scriptura".

How sad that your God is confined to the pages of a book.

BTW, if "sola verbum dei" is supposed to be Latin, it is grammatically nonsensical. Is this an expression invented by people like you to describe beliefs invented by people like you?

These are people with a Latin/Legalistic mindset,I would guess that the Reformers used Latin terms to describe their innovations,to some how "validate" their theology saying that it is the Word of God!! As if God favored the Latins over the Greeks!!
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: genesisone on September 07, 2010, 01:26:07 PM

BTW, if "sola verbum dei" is supposed to be Latin, it is grammatically nonsensical. Is this an expression invented by people like you to describe beliefs invented by people like you?

These are people with a Latin/Legalistic mindset,I would guess that the Reformers used Latin terms to describe their innovations,to some how "validate" their theology saying that it is the Word of God!! As if God favored the Latins over the Greeks!!
I fully agree with you on this point. However, I'm still expecting Alfred to explain this term - both syntactically and historically -  which he has introduced into the discussion.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: FormerReformer on September 07, 2010, 01:35:41 PM
^
1. Alfred, you have not really offered evidence for you position. You have simply asserted your postion again.
2. Are you saying that there was a time when Sola Scriptura was not true, but then became true? So I guess you do not agree with the bible when it says that the faith was "once and for all delivered unto the saints," because you allow for a change in doctrine.


Sola scriptura (Only Scripture) is sola verbum dei today (only word of God):


Actually, Mr Persson, the only Word of God is a Man who was born approximately 2,000 years ago.  Scripture gives us prophecy about this Man (the Old Testament) and recordings of the teaching of Him and His disciples.  It contains the words of God, but is not the Word of God.

Quote
27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest asked them,
 28 saying, "Did we not strictly command you not to teach in this name? And look, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this Man's blood on us!"
 29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men.
 (Act 5:27-29 NKJ)

The word of man is not equal to the word of God = sola verbum dei.

Peter was applying the teaching of Christ.

And the day the Orthodox Church stops proclaiming the teachings of Christ (repent, be baptized, eat of His Flesh and drink of His Blood, go and sin no more, etc) you might have an argument.

Quote
In ancient times books were too expensive for most to own, so they learned God's Word via the synagogue. But its teachers were often hypocrites who didn't follow it themselves. Christ said the authority of the word of God remains undiminished by their hypocrisy = sola verbum dei or sola scriptura.

Anachronistic.  The main form of Jewish education for their children was by the reading and copying from the books of Scripture.  Even the "uneducated" fishermen were on intimate terms with these teachings (it was the legalistic Talmud and pagan philosophy which they did not know).

Quote
Hence our LORD objected to following tradition against the Word of God:

 13 "making the word of God of no effect through your tradition (Mar 7:13 NKJ)

Yes, the Jews had elevated their man-made tradition over and above the commandments of God, so that if a man designated part of his wealth "Corban" he was absolved of the commandment to honor one's father and mother.  The Orthodox Tradition is not man-made (that is not to say that there aren't certain traditions that have accrued to certain local churches over the years, but these are not the rule of faith) but inspired by the Holy Spirit.  You know, like the Bible.

Quote
As the Word of God today exists only in scripture, "sola scriptura".

Again, the Word of God is our Lord Jesus Christ, not a few sayings and actions the Apostles were so wise as to write down for our benefit.  The Word of God is Alive and working even to this day, not ink written on dead trees.

Quote
36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 (1Co 14:36-38 NKJ)

So we who belong to The Way, who are careful followers of genuine apostolic traditions, reject equating the word of man with Word of God, only the Word of God has supreme authority over us.

To all who would be king, who would have us apostatize from our LORD Jesus Christ and follow the word of man, We repeat verbatim apostle Peter's words to the magisteriuim of his time:

"We ought to obey God rather than men.  (Act 5:29 NKJ)

And we do.  "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me" (John 17: 20-21)

We hold fast to the teachings of our Lord, given to us by the Apostles, and the teachings of the Apostles and the Church (which is the Body of Christ) given us by inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

We shun the man-made traditions of Arius, Marcion, Montanus, the Nicholatians, the Gnostics, Nestorius, Novatian, the Manicheans, Rome, Luther, Calvin, Cranmer, Scofield, Joseph Smith, Charles Russell, and all who would elevate their private interpretation above the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by our Lord and His Apostles.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: PeterTheAleut on September 07, 2010, 03:05:15 PM
We shun the man-made traditions of Arius, Marcion, Montanus, the Nicholatians, the Gnostics, Nestorius, Novatian, the Manicheans, Rome, Luther, Calvin, Cranmer, Scofield, Joseph Smith, Charles Russell, and all who would elevate their private interpretation above the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by our Lord and His Apostles.
Indeed! ;D  Sola scriptura is a man-made tradition.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on September 07, 2010, 03:26:37 PM
^
1. Alfred, you have not really offered evidence for you position. You have simply asserted your postion again.
2. Are you saying that there was a time when Sola Scriptura was not true, but then became true? So I guess you do not agree with the bible when it says that the faith was "once and for all delivered unto the saints," because you allow for a change in doctrine.


Sola scriptura (Only Scripture) is sola verbum dei today (only word of God):

 27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest asked them,
 28 saying, "Did we not strictly command you not to teach in this name? And look, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this Man's blood on us!"
 29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men.
 (Act 5:27-29 NKJ)

The word of man is not equal to the word of God = sola verbum dei.

Peter was applying the teaching of Christ.

 2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
 3 "Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.
 (Mat 23:2-3 NKJ)

In ancient times books were too expensive for most to own, so they learned God's Word via the synagogue. But its teachers were often hypocrites who didn't follow it themselves. Christ said the authority of the word of God remains undiminished by their hypocrisy = sola verbum dei or sola scriptura.

Hence our LORD objected to following tradition against the Word of God:

 13 "making the word of God of no effect through your tradition (Mar 7:13 NKJ)

Sola Verbum Dei therefore = sola scriptura when the Word of God exists only in Scripture.

Only during that brief period before the word of God becomes scripture, do we practice sola verbum dei by obeying scripture + tradition:

 13 ...word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God,(1Th 2:13 NKJ)

 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. (2Th 2:15 NKJ)

But that period ended when apostolic preaching was captured in these Bible books and those written after Paul said this.


As the Word of God today exists only in scripture, "sola scriptura".


Sola Verbum Dei. It is apostolic doctrine the word of God came TO the church,  not THROUGH it:

 36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 (1Co 14:36-38 NKJ)

So we who belong to The Way, who are careful followers of genuine apostolic traditions, reject equating the word of man with Word of God, only the Word of God has supreme authority over us.

To all who would be king, who would have us apostatize from our LORD Jesus Christ and follow the word of man, We repeat verbatim apostle Peter's words to the magisteriuim of his time:


"We ought to obey God rather than men.  (Act 5:29 NKJ)




Alfred--How is it that I agree with all of your citations and not with all of your conclusions? Is this because I am deficient in some way? Is it because you are gifted by the Holt Spirit above all of your interlocutors? Take the last quotation you used, that of Saint Peter who said "We ought to obey God rather than men." I must tell you that I was going to use that very verse to rebut you, in the sense of "we must obey God rather than Alfred." So, what gives? Why are you so resistant to others' viewpoints? Why are you hurling Scripture to us as if you are Zeus hurling lightning bolts? Is it possible that you are possessed by pride, the favorite tool of the Evil One? I just wonder and I pray for you. If I have offended you, please forgive me. Kyrill
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: biro on September 07, 2010, 05:41:56 PM
Here's something to think about. When Paul wrote about how Scripture equips the man of God for every good work, the New Testament at that time was not even complete. Not unless you accept an NT without the Revelation!  :o The Ecumenical Council which finalized the canon of Scripture had yet to happen. So, the Scripture to which Paul refers is not only his own writings - we don't refer to his Epistles as the Gospel According to Paul - and by deduction he must be referring primarily to the Old Testament. (That's my guess.) 

What, then, does this do to the claims of Perssonism? From what I've read, Alfred seems to think that Paul's school of thought was that of a one-note televangelist. If Alfred took a time machine and dropped himself back into the actual world of St. Paul, I am sorry to say I think he would wind up very confused.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 07, 2010, 11:20:04 PM
^
1. Alfred, you have not really offered evidence for you position. You have simply asserted your postion again.
2. Are you saying that there was a time when Sola Scriptura was not true, but then became true? So I guess you do not agree with the bible when it says that the faith was "once and for all delivered unto the saints," because you allow for a change in doctrine.


Sola scriptura (Only Scripture) is sola verbum dei today (only word of God):

 27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest asked them,
 28 saying, "Did we not strictly command you not to teach in this name? And look, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this Man's blood on us!"
 29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men.
 (Act 5:27-29 NKJ)

The word of man is not equal to the word of God = sola verbum dei.

Peter was applying the teaching of Christ.

 2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
 3 "Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.
 (Mat 23:2-3 NKJ)

In ancient times books were too expensive for most to own, so they learned God's Word via the synagogue. But its teachers were often hypocrites who didn't follow it themselves. Christ said the authority of the word of God remains undiminished by their hypocrisy = sola verbum dei or sola scriptura.

Hence our LORD objected to following tradition against the Word of God:

 13 "making the word of God of no effect through your tradition (Mar 7:13 NKJ)

Sola Verbum Dei therefore = sola scriptura when the Word of God exists only in Scripture.

Only during that brief period before the word of God becomes scripture, do we practice sola verbum dei by obeying scripture + tradition:

 13 ...word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God,(1Th 2:13 NKJ)

 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. (2Th 2:15 NKJ)

But that period ended when apostolic preaching was captured in these Bible books and those written after Paul said this.


As the Word of God today exists only in scripture, "sola scriptura".


Sola Verbum Dei. It is apostolic doctrine the word of God came TO the church,  not THROUGH it:

 36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 (1Co 14:36-38 NKJ)

So we who belong to The Way, who are careful followers of genuine apostolic traditions, reject equating the word of man with Word of God, only the Word of God has supreme authority over us.

To all who would be king, who would have us apostatize from our LORD Jesus Christ and follow the word of man, We repeat verbatim apostle Peter's words to the magisteriuim of his time:


"We ought to obey God rather than men.  (Act 5:29 NKJ)




Alfred--How is it that I agree with all of your citations and not with all of your conclusions? Is this because I am deficient in some way? Is it because you are gifted by the Holt Spirit above all of your interlocutors? Take the last quotation you used, that of Saint Peter who said "We ought to obey God rather than men." I must tell you that I was going to use that very verse to rebut you, in the sense of "we must obey God rather than Alfred." So, what gives? Why are you so resistant to others' viewpoints? Why are you hurling Scripture to us as if you are Zeus hurling lightning bolts? Is it possible that you are possessed by pride, the favorite tool of the Evil One? I just wonder and I pray for you. If I have offended you, please forgive me. Kyrill

I'm a critical thinker and you aren't.

That is your choice, there are books that teach the science. amazon.com

Your application of Peter's words rests upon equivocation fallacy, it posits God as both God and the human authorities you want to take His place, as long as they aren't me.

Truth is conformity to fact. What conforms to scripture fact is God's truth.

I heed God's truth. When you do, then we will agree. It will be a blessed moment I'll mark on my calendar.




Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 07, 2010, 11:29:29 PM
Here's something to think about. When Paul wrote about how Scripture equips the man of God for every good work, the New Testament at that time was not even complete. Not unless you accept an NT without the Revelation!  :o The Ecumenical Council which finalized the canon of Scripture had yet to happen. So, the Scripture to which Paul refers is not only his own writings - we don't refer to his Epistles as the Gospel According to Paul - and by deduction he must be referring primarily to the Old Testament. (That's my guess.)

What, then, does this do to the claims of Perssonism? From what I've read, Alfred seems to think that Paul's school of thought was that of a one-note televangelist. If Alfred took a time machine and dropped himself back into the actual world of St. Paul, I am sorry to say I think he would wind up very confused.

What it does is prove you didn't read my treatment of this verse, where I note scripture was likely just the Old Testament when Timothy was a child (vs. 15).

Therefore it strengthens Paul's statement scripture can make wise INTO (eis) salvation...make the man of God complete and thoroughly equipped for every good work, such as, the good work of teaching the Christian faith to others.

Why?

Because if the OT alone could do it, how much more can the OT + the NT fully equip?

As the next question I'm usually asked is: "if God added the NT, doesn't that prove God who wrote through Paul wrong, the OT cannot fully equip?"

I will answer, "No! Just as your being offered food at the end of the feast doesn't prove you were starving to death."

"Hey, all who are thirsty, come to the water!
You who have no money, come!
Buy and eat!
Come! Buy wine and milk without money and without cost!
Why pay money for something that will not nourish you?
Why spend your hard-earned money on something that will not satisfy?
Listen carefully to me and eat what is nourishing! Enjoy fine food!
Pay attention and come to me!
Listen, so you can live!
Then I will make an unconditional covenantal promise to you, just like the reliable covenantal promises I made to David.
...

Indeed you will go out with joy; you will be led along in peace;
the mountains and hills will give a joyful shout before you, and all the trees in the field will clap their hands.
Evergreens will grow in place of thorn bushes, firs will grow in place of nettles;
they will be a monument to the LORD, a permanent reminder that will remain.
 (Isa 55:1-3, 12-13 NET)

 
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 07, 2010, 11:48:34 PM
We shun the man-made traditions of Arius, Marcion, Montanus, the Nicholatians, the Gnostics, Nestorius, Novatian, the Manicheans, Rome, Luther, Calvin, Cranmer, Scofield, Joseph Smith, Charles Russell, and all who would elevate their private interpretation above the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by our Lord and His Apostles.
Indeed! ;D  Sola scriptura is a man-made tradition.

Only if sola verbum dei is a man made tradition, and it is not:

NKJ  Acts 5:29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men. (Act 5:29 NKJ)

As it is apostolic tradition the Word of God came to the church, not through it:

NKJ  1 Corinthians 14:36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

Sola verbum dei is today sola scriptura.



Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: bogdan on September 07, 2010, 11:50:14 PM
Because if the OT alone could do it, how much more can the OT + the NT fully equip?

As the next question I'm usually asked is: "if God added the NT, doesn't that prove God who wrote through Paul wrong, the OT cannot fully equip?"

I will answer, "No! Just as your being offered food at the end of the feast doesn't prove you were starving to death."

That's at least the second time you've said something like that. You may believe that, but we don't believe that in Orthodoxy. The Old Testament is a shadow, a type, of the New Testament. There is no salvation in the Old Testament by itself. The Old Testament is a bunch of worthless history apart from Christ.

The blood of the passover lamb saved the people because it was a type of Christ's blood. The same lamb had to be eaten by all the Israelites because it was a type of the Eucharist. Moses' golden serpent saved the people because it was a type of the Cross. The scapegoat took away the nation's sins because it was a type of Christ.

The examples are endless. The point is, without the New Testament, the Old Testament is nothing. It's a collection of stories and moralisms that you can find in most any ancient culture.

Everyone who lived before Christ, from the worshippers of Ba'al to King David, were subject to death. No matter how pious a Jew you were, no matter how perfectly you followed the Law, you still died and went to Hades. But when Christ Himself went down into Hades and trampled down Death, mankind was freed and our situation changed utterly.

That is why it is utter rubbish to say the OT was already salvific, and the NT is icing on the cake. No, there is no salvation in the OT alone.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 07, 2010, 11:52:35 PM

Sola Verbum Dei therefore = sola scriptura when the Word of God exists only in Scripture.

Only during that brief period before the word of God becomes scripture, do we practice sola verbum dei by obeying scripture + tradition:

 13 ...word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God,(1Th 2:13 NKJ)

 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. (2Th 2:15 NKJ)

But that period ended when apostolic preaching was captured in these Bible books and those written after Paul said this.


As the Word of God today exists only in scripture, "sola scriptura".

How sad that your God is confined to the pages of a book.

BTW, if "sola verbum dei" is supposed to be Latin, it is grammatically nonsensical. Is this an expression invented by people like you to describe beliefs invented by people like you?

These are people with a Latin/Legalistic mindset,I would guess that the Reformers used Latin terms to describe their innovations,to some how "validate" their theology saying that it is the Word of God!! As if God favored the Latins over the Greeks!!

Icons are an innovation...consensus of the fathers an innovation...heeding the Word of God, a command of God the Eternal Son:

 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
 (Mat 23:2-3 KJV)

We are to obey God's Word even when its teachers are hypocrites, the hypocrisy of men does not diminish the authority of God's word that is taught through them.

=Sola verbum dei

Back then, scripture was heard through public reading at the synagogue...before the printing press, scripture was too expensive and rare for private copies.



Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: ialmisry on September 07, 2010, 11:52:58 PM
Here's something to think about. When Paul wrote about how Scripture equips the man of God for every good work, the New Testament at that time was not even complete. Not unless you accept an NT without the Revelation!  :o The Ecumenical Council which finalized the canon of Scripture had yet to happen. So, the Scripture to which Paul refers is not only his own writings - we don't refer to his Epistles as the Gospel According to Paul - and by deduction he must be referring primarily to the Old Testament. (That's my guess.)

What, then, does this do to the claims of Perssonism? From what I've read, Alfred seems to think that Paul's school of thought was that of a one-note televangelist. If Alfred took a time machine and dropped himself back into the actual world of St. Paul, I am sorry to say I think he would wind up very confused.

What it does is prove you didn't read my treatment of this verse, where I note scripture was likely just the Old Testament when Timothy was a child (vs. 15).

Therefore it strengthens Paul's statement scripture can make wise INTO (eis) salvation...make the man of God complete and thoroughly equipped for every good work, such as, the good work of teaching the Christian faith to others.

Why?

Because if the OT alone could do it, how much more can the OT + the NT fully equip?

As the next question I'm usually asked is: "if God added the NT, doesn't that prove God who wrote through Paul wrong, the OT cannot fully equip?"

I will answer, "No! Just as your being offered food at the end of the feast doesn't prove you were starving to death."

"Hey, all who are thirsty, come to the water!
You who have no money, come!
Buy and eat!
Come! Buy wine and milk without money and without cost!
(Isa 55:1 NET)
Well, well. Mr. Persson, you're still here.  I've been too busy in interesting threads that I hadn't noticed yorr postings.

If the OT could do it, then we would have no use for the NT, and can dispense with it like the Jews have. Eating after you have had your fill is gluttony, a deadly sin.

P.E.T.A. can argue on the basis of a vegetarian (or better, vegan) diet that all vegetabbles are given by providence of God and are profitable for nurishment for antioxidants for nutrition for fitness in cardiovascular health. But their diet, like your argument, has no meat to it.  Meat is good for nutrition as well.  Vegetarian diets tend to be enemic, like sola scriptura theologies (plural).

Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 07, 2010, 11:57:22 PM
Because if the OT alone could do it, how much more can the OT + the NT fully equip?

As the next question I'm usually asked is: "if God added the NT, doesn't that prove God who wrote through Paul wrong, the OT cannot fully equip?"

I will answer, "No! Just as your being offered food at the end of the feast doesn't prove you were starving to death."

That's at least the second time you've said something like that. You may believe that, but we don't believe that in Orthodoxy. The Old Testament is a shadow, a type, of the New Testament. There is no salvation in the Old Testament by itself. The Old Testament is a bunch of worthless history apart from Christ.

The blood of the passover lamb saved the people because it was a type of Christ's blood. The same lamb had to be eaten by all the Israelites because it was a type of the Eucharist. Moses' golden serpent saved the people because it was a type of the Cross. The scapegoat took away the nation's sins because it was a type of Christ.

The examples are endless. The point is, without the New Testament, the Old Testament is nothing. It's a collection of stories and moralisms that you can find in most any ancient culture.

Everyone who lived before Christ, from the worshippers of Ba'al to King David, were subject to death. No matter how pious a Jew you were, no matter how perfectly you followed the Law, you still died and went to Hades. But when Christ Himself went down into Hades and trampled down Death, mankind was freed and our situation changed utterly.

That is why it is utter rubbish to say the OT was already salvific, and the NT is icing on the cake. No, there is no salvation in the OT alone.

Orthodoxy is wrong, the apostle Paul is right.

We can see the OT alone is able to make wise unto salvation, the proposition has been proved in infallible divine history:

 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
 12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
 (Act 17:11-12 KJV)

These Bereans confirmed the gospel of Christ is in the Old Testament, they believed and were saved.

Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 08, 2010, 12:02:32 AM
Here's something to think about. When Paul wrote about how Scripture equips the man of God for every good work, the New Testament at that time was not even complete. Not unless you accept an NT without the Revelation!  :o The Ecumenical Council which finalized the canon of Scripture had yet to happen. So, the Scripture to which Paul refers is not only his own writings - we don't refer to his Epistles as the Gospel According to Paul - and by deduction he must be referring primarily to the Old Testament. (That's my guess.)

What, then, does this do to the claims of Perssonism? From what I've read, Alfred seems to think that Paul's school of thought was that of a one-note televangelist. If Alfred took a time machine and dropped himself back into the actual world of St. Paul, I am sorry to say I think he would wind up very confused.

You're back! I thought your icons may have ganged up on you.

The post right below yours, the case of the Bereans, proves you wrong. Enjoy



What it does is prove you didn't read my treatment of this verse, where I note scripture was likely just the Old Testament when Timothy was a child (vs. 15).

Therefore it strengthens Paul's statement scripture can make wise INTO (eis) salvation...make the man of God complete and thoroughly equipped for every good work, such as, the good work of teaching the Christian faith to others.

Why?

Because if the OT alone could do it, how much more can the OT + the NT fully equip?

As the next question I'm usually asked is: "if God added the NT, doesn't that prove God who wrote through Paul wrong, the OT cannot fully equip?"

I will answer, "No! Just as your being offered food at the end of the feast doesn't prove you were starving to death."

"Hey, all who are thirsty, come to the water!
You who have no money, come!
Buy and eat!
Come! Buy wine and milk without money and without cost!
(Isa 55:1 NET)
Well, well. Mr. Persson, you're still here.  I've been too busy in interesting threads that I hadn't noticed yorr postings.

If the OT could do it, then we would have no use for the NT, and can dispense with it like the Jews have. Eating after you have had your fill is gluttony, a deadly sin.

P.E.T.A. can argue on the basis of a vegetarian (or better, vegan) diet that all vegetabbles are given by providence of God and are profitable for nurishment for antioxidants for nutrition for fitness in cardiovascular health. But their diet, like your argument, has no meat to it.  Meat is good for nutrition as well.  Vegetarian diets tend to be enemic, like sola scriptura theologies (plural).




You're back! I thought your icons may have ganged up on you.

The post right below yours, the case of the Bereans, proves you wrong. Enjoy
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: bogdan on September 08, 2010, 12:03:49 AM
Because if the OT alone could do it, how much more can the OT + the NT fully equip?

As the next question I'm usually asked is: "if God added the NT, doesn't that prove God who wrote through Paul wrong, the OT cannot fully equip?"

I will answer, "No! Just as your being offered food at the end of the feast doesn't prove you were starving to death."

That's at least the second time you've said something like that. You may believe that, but we don't believe that in Orthodoxy. The Old Testament is a shadow, a type, of the New Testament. There is no salvation in the Old Testament by itself. The Old Testament is a bunch of worthless history apart from Christ.

The blood of the passover lamb saved the people because it was a type of Christ's blood. The same lamb had to be eaten by all the Israelites because it was a type of the Eucharist. Moses' golden serpent saved the people because it was a type of the Cross. The scapegoat took away the nation's sins because it was a type of Christ.

The examples are endless. The point is, without the New Testament, the Old Testament is nothing. It's a collection of stories and moralisms that you can find in most any ancient culture.

Everyone who lived before Christ, from the worshippers of Ba'al to King David, were subject to death. No matter how pious a Jew you were, no matter how perfectly you followed the Law, you still died and went to Hades. But when Christ Himself went down into Hades and trampled down Death, mankind was freed and our situation changed utterly.

That is why it is utter rubbish to say the OT was already salvific, and the NT is icing on the cake. No, there is no salvation in the OT alone.

Orthodoxy is wrong, the apostle Paul is right.

We can see the OT alone is able to make wise unto salvation, the proposition has been proved in infallible divine history:

 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
 12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
 (Act 17:11-12 KJV)

These Bereans confirmed the gospel of Christ is in the Old Testament, they believed and were saved.



They searched the scriptures to verify that the prophecies had indeed been made as they had been told (and I noted a few such prophecies in my previous post). That's called verification of claims. The text you cite doesn't say they gained salvation by reading the Old Testament. You are inferring that because that is your a priori belief.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: ialmisry on September 08, 2010, 12:05:05 AM
We shun the man-made traditions of Arius, Marcion, Montanus, the Nicholatians, the Gnostics, Nestorius, Novatian, the Manicheans, Rome, Luther, Calvin, Cranmer, Scofield, Joseph Smith, Charles Russell, and all who would elevate their private interpretation above the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by our Lord and His Apostles.
Indeed! ;D  Sola scriptura is a man-made tradition.

Only if sola verbum dei is a man made tradition, and it is not:

NKJ  Acts 5:29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men. (Act 5:29 NKJ)

What verse did they cite?

Quote
As it is apostolic tradition the Word of God came to the church, not through it:

NKJ  1 Corinthians 14:36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)[/quote]

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it! 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

Quote
Sola verbum dei is today sola scriptura.

And a modern heresy, with no Apostolic roots. Rather shallow roots for a weed.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: bogdan on September 08, 2010, 12:08:32 AM
We shun the man-made traditions of Arius, Marcion, Montanus, the Nicholatians, the Gnostics, Nestorius, Novatian, the Manicheans, Rome, Luther, Calvin, Cranmer, Scofield, Joseph Smith, Charles Russell, and all who would elevate their private interpretation above the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by our Lord and His Apostles.
Indeed! ;D  Sola scriptura is a man-made tradition.

Only if sola verbum dei is a man made tradition, and it is not:

NKJ  Acts 5:29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men. (Act 5:29 NKJ)

As it is apostolic tradition the Word of God came to the church, not through it:

NKJ  1 Corinthians 14:36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

Sola verbum dei is today sola scriptura.

No, Sola Verbum Dei is Orthodox Christianity, because we worship the Word of God alone. Sola Scriptura is Bible-worship.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 08, 2010, 12:11:50 AM
Because if the OT alone could do it, how much more can the OT + the NT fully equip?

As the next question I'm usually asked is: "if God added the NT, doesn't that prove God who wrote through Paul wrong, the OT cannot fully equip?"

I will answer, "No! Just as your being offered food at the end of the feast doesn't prove you were starving to death."

That's at least the second time you've said something like that. You may believe that, but we don't believe that in Orthodoxy. The Old Testament is a shadow, a type, of the New Testament. There is no salvation in the Old Testament by itself. The Old Testament is a bunch of worthless history apart from Christ.

The blood of the passover lamb saved the people because it was a type of Christ's blood. The same lamb had to be eaten by all the Israelites because it was a type of the Eucharist. Moses' golden serpent saved the people because it was a type of the Cross. The scapegoat took away the nation's sins because it was a type of Christ.

The examples are endless. The point is, without the New Testament, the Old Testament is nothing. It's a collection of stories and moralisms that you can find in most any ancient culture.

Everyone who lived before Christ, from the worshippers of Ba'al to King David, were subject to death. No matter how pious a Jew you were, no matter how perfectly you followed the Law, you still died and went to Hades. But when Christ Himself went down into Hades and trampled down Death, mankind was freed and our situation changed utterly.

That is why it is utter rubbish to say the OT was already salvific, and the NT is icing on the cake. No, there is no salvation in the OT alone.

Orthodoxy is wrong, the apostle Paul is right.

We can see the OT alone is able to make wise unto salvation, the proposition has been proved in infallible divine history:

 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
 12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
 (Act 17:11-12 KJV)

These Bereans confirmed the gospel of Christ is in the Old Testament, they believed and were saved.



They searched the scriptures to verify that the prophecies had indeed been made as they had been told (and I noted a few such prophecies in my previous post). That's called verification of claims. The text you cite doesn't say they gained salvation by reading the Old Testament. You are inferring that because that is your a priori belief.

That's the point, they were able to confirm the gospel of Christ is in the OT = able to make wise unto salvation, through faith in Christ Jesus.

That's precisely what Paul said, the Gospel of Christ is in the Old Testament, and that evidently is what Orthodoxy denies.

Paul is right, Orthodoxy wrong.

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2Ti 3:15 KJV)

All Protestant Systematic Theologies, Strong, Thiessen (my favorite), Hodge, Chafer, Pannenberg, Geisler, Oden, Shedd, Berkouwer, will gladly point it out to you, if you doubt it.


Although a tangent, Gustav Oehler's Theology of the Old Testament is invaluable when studying the names of God, the divine Presence, and heavenly things of that nature.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: bogdan on September 08, 2010, 12:13:27 AM
By the way Alfred, you were struggling earlier with exactly how we understand the relationship between Tradition and Scripture. You seemed to present it as an either/or situation that had the two in conflict. I have attempted to demonstrate how we view their relationship with the following chart.

(Orthodox people: if this is incorrect, feel free to suggest how to improve it)

As you can see, all aspects of the Faith have a common source in Holy Tradition, thus they are never in conflict. The scriptures never contradict any other part of Tradition, because they have a common source.

A good tree cannot bear bad fruit. And we all agree the Scripture is good fruit, so all of Tradition must be good, of necessity.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: ialmisry on September 08, 2010, 12:13:44 AM
Here's something to think about. When Paul wrote about how Scripture equips the man of God for every good work, the New Testament at that time was not even complete. Not unless you accept an NT without the Revelation!  :o The Ecumenical Council which finalized the canon of Scripture had yet to happen. So, the Scripture to which Paul refers is not only his own writings - we don't refer to his Epistles as the Gospel According to Paul - and by deduction he must be referring primarily to the Old Testament. (That's my guess.)

What, then, does this do to the claims of Perssonism? From what I've read, Alfred seems to think that Paul's school of thought was that of a one-note televangelist. If Alfred took a time machine and dropped himself back into the actual world of St. Paul, I am sorry to say I think he would wind up very confused.

You're back! I thought your icons may have ganged up on you.

The post right below yours, the case of the Bereans, proves you wrong. Enjoy



What it does is prove you didn't read my treatment of this verse, where I note scripture was likely just the Old Testament when Timothy was a child (vs. 15).

Therefore it strengthens Paul's statement scripture can make wise INTO (eis) salvation...make the man of God complete and thoroughly equipped for every good work, such as, the good work of teaching the Christian faith to others.

Why?

Because if the OT alone could do it, how much more can the OT + the NT fully equip?

As the next question I'm usually asked is: "if God added the NT, doesn't that prove God who wrote through Paul wrong, the OT cannot fully equip?"

I will answer, "No! Just as your being offered food at the end of the feast doesn't prove you were starving to death."

"Hey, all who are thirsty, come to the water!
You who have no money, come!
Buy and eat!
Come! Buy wine and milk without money and without cost!
(Isa 55:1 NET)
Well, well. Mr. Persson, you're still here.  I've been too busy in interesting threads that I hadn't noticed yorr postings.

If the OT could do it, then we would have no use for the NT, and can dispense with it like the Jews have. Eating after you have had your fill is gluttony, a deadly sin.

P.E.T.A. can argue on the basis of a vegetarian (or better, vegan) diet that all vegetabbles are given by providence of God and are profitable for nurishment for antioxidants for nutrition for fitness in cardiovascular health. But their diet, like your argument, has no meat to it.  Meat is good for nutrition as well.  Vegetarian diets tend to be enemic, like sola scriptura theologies (plural).




You're back! I thought your icons may have ganged up on you.

Why would they do that. I'm no longer an iconoclast.  The Holy Icons were here long before I came along (almost two thousand years in fact).  They will be standing long after I am gone, until their Divine Prototype returns.

You started Personism, and you are in danger of taking it to your grave.  God grant you bury it before then.

Quote
The post right below yours, the case of the Bereans, proves you wrong. Enjoy

We've dealt with the Bereans before.
As for their exegesis, they relied upon God the Holy Spirit and the teachers He provided,
through the hands of the Apostles, and those whom they consecrated, who continued their preaching.

and of course the word of the founding apostles and prophets:

26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.
 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret.
 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.
 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.
 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.
 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
 (1Co 14:26-33 NKJ)

I had thought of starting a thread on Perssonism's teaching on sola scriptura, but decided the thread "Sola Scriptura - A Diversion From the True Word of God" would be an appropriate place to taste test, to spew out as poison, Perssonism's flavor of Sola Scriptura.

The episcopacy of the Orthodox Church, keeping which was commtted to it by the Holy Spirit, stirred up the gift of prophecy which it received by the laying on of the hands of the Apostles (and any Orthodox bishop today, by the ontological whole of the episcopate and Apostolic succession, is only an arm's length away from the Apostles), determined the canon of Scripture and its interpretation.

In fact, so great is the episcopacy, the presbyters of Acts 15, that St. Peter, introduding himself as "an [note, btw: "a," not "the"] Apostle of Jesus Christ," nonetheless identifies himself as a "fellow presbyter" when he invokes himself as a witness of Christ and a partaker of His glory, to exhort his fellow presbyters, whom he identifies as the bishops (5:1-2), and the Apostle John, the disciple whom Christ loved, doesn't give his autority to his second and third epistles as neither the Disciple nor Apostle, but as "the presbyter."

"He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me." Luke 10:16  You cannot have the Church's book without the Church.

Of course, you have the free will to preach or accept another Gospel.
Much more at the link to the quote.

This shows they could judge doctrine by the scripture:

NKJ  Acts 17:11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.
 (Act 17:11 NKJ)
Yes. Searching the LXX, no doubt (cf. Acts 17:12 "Therefore many of them believed, and also not a few of the Greeks"). That's what the Jews in Greece, which the Bereans, as Acts 17:10 tells us, were: "Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews." So your citation tells us about 1st century synagogue practice, but not directly the early Church practice.

This is, however, one of the few areas where the sola scriptura folk stumble upon the Truth. Hence Schaff's summary has validity:
I got other examples where the NT doesn't follow that rule, therefore the rule isn't "apostolic".

on the Apostolic rule by those who know what they are talking about.
some of my thoughts on the matter, and related issues
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19095.0.html
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19811.0.html

More importantly, the statements by those who know the meaning of "apostolic":
St. Ignatius:
.....

The Protestant Schaff summarizes:
Quote
And what had become of the disciples who were the first-fruits of the apostolic ministry? St. Paul had said, “The same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.” How was this injunction realized? St. Peter’s touching words come to mind, “I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.” Was this endeavour successfully carried out? To these natural and pious inquiries, the Apostolic Fathers, though we have a few specimens only of their fidelity, give an emphatic reply. If the cold-hearted and critical find no charm in the simple, childlike faith which they exhibit, ennobled though it be by heroic devotion to the Master, we need not marvel. Such would probably object: “They teach me nothing; I do not relish their multiplied citations from Scripture.” The answer is, “If you are familiar with Scripture, you owe it largely to these primitive witnesses to its Canon and its spirit. By their testimony we detect what is spurious, and we identify what is real. Is it nothing to find that your Bible is their Bible, your faith their faith, your Saviour their Saviour, your God their God?” Let us reflect also, that, when copies of the entire Scriptures were rare and costly, these citations were “words fitly spoken,—apples of gold in pictures of silver.” We are taught by them also that they obeyed the apostle’s precept, “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing,” etc. Thus they reflect the apostolic care that men should be raised up able to teach others also.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.i.ii.html
And if the Bereans only needed to search the OT, then they (and we) have no neef of the NT any more than the modern Jews do.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: bogdan on September 08, 2010, 12:20:05 AM
Because if the OT alone could do it, how much more can the OT + the NT fully equip?

As the next question I'm usually asked is: "if God added the NT, doesn't that prove God who wrote through Paul wrong, the OT cannot fully equip?"

I will answer, "No! Just as your being offered food at the end of the feast doesn't prove you were starving to death."

That's at least the second time you've said something like that. You may believe that, but we don't believe that in Orthodoxy. The Old Testament is a shadow, a type, of the New Testament. There is no salvation in the Old Testament by itself. The Old Testament is a bunch of worthless history apart from Christ.

The blood of the passover lamb saved the people because it was a type of Christ's blood. The same lamb had to be eaten by all the Israelites because it was a type of the Eucharist. Moses' golden serpent saved the people because it was a type of the Cross. The scapegoat took away the nation's sins because it was a type of Christ.

The examples are endless. The point is, without the New Testament, the Old Testament is nothing. It's a collection of stories and moralisms that you can find in most any ancient culture.

Everyone who lived before Christ, from the worshippers of Ba'al to King David, were subject to death. No matter how pious a Jew you were, no matter how perfectly you followed the Law, you still died and went to Hades. But when Christ Himself went down into Hades and trampled down Death, mankind was freed and our situation changed utterly.

That is why it is utter rubbish to say the OT was already salvific, and the NT is icing on the cake. No, there is no salvation in the OT alone.

Orthodoxy is wrong, the apostle Paul is right.

We can see the OT alone is able to make wise unto salvation, the proposition has been proved in infallible divine history:

 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
 12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
 (Act 17:11-12 KJV)

These Bereans confirmed the gospel of Christ is in the Old Testament, they believed and were saved.



They searched the scriptures to verify that the prophecies had indeed been made as they had been told (and I noted a few such prophecies in my previous post). That's called verification of claims. The text you cite doesn't say they gained salvation by reading the Old Testament. You are inferring that because that is your a priori belief.

That's the point, they were able to confirm the gospel of Christ is in the OT = able to make wise unto salvation, through faith in Christ Jesus.

That's precisely what Paul said, the Gospel of Christ is in the Old Testament, and that evidently is what Orthodoxy denies.

Paul is right, Orthodoxy wrong.

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2Ti 3:15 KJV)

All Protestant Systematic Theologies, Strong, Thiessen (my favorite), Hodge, Chafer, Pannenberg, Geisler, Oden, Shedd, Berkouwer, will gladly point it out to you, if you doubt it.


No, that's incorrect. That's not what I said at all. They confirmed that the prophecies were accurate and Jesus Christ was indeed the promised one. There are types of the Gospel in the OT, but they are only types. Types are worthless if there is nothing for them to reference. You said the OT was salvific unto itself ("the OT alone could do it"). That is flatly untrue.

And I don't care how many Protestant systematic theologies agree with you, because they are not of the Church, but rather the mere reasonings and conjectures of men. Besides, all of this stuff was figured out long before any of those men lived.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 08, 2010, 12:22:29 AM
By the way Alfred, you were struggling earlier with exactly how we understand the relationship between Tradition and Scripture. You seemed to present it as an either/or situation that had the two in conflict. I have attempted to demonstrate how we view their relationship with the following chart.

(Orthodox people: if this is incorrect, feel free to suggest how to improve it)

Quaking in your boots you might misstate it, eh?

Ah, being free in Christ is much preferred.

I understand the concept "its all about the church", unfortunately for that theory, Paul contradicted it when he said the Word of God is not channeled through the church:


 36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? (1Co 14:36 KJV)

In context this means Paul rejected the spiritual phenomena, the tongues prophecy and knowledge occurring among the Corinthians, as being "the word of God."

That rules out Catholic "living tradition," and whatever you call its counterpart in Orthodoxy, as being "the word of God."

The word of God was once delivered to the church, there aren't multiple deliveries:

 3 ...the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. (Jud 1:3 KJV)

Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: theistgal on September 08, 2010, 12:25:09 AM
Now Alred, that's just rude. No one here is "quaking in their boots" - just being careful to give you the correct information.

Be nice and enjoy the nice cooler weather! :D
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: ialmisry on September 08, 2010, 12:26:21 AM
Orthodoxy is wrong, the apostle Paul is right.

The Apostle Paul, teaching Orthodoxy, is right.

Orthodoxy, teaching the Apostle Paul, is right.

Persson, teaching Perssonism, is wrong.

Quote
We can see the OT alone is able to make wise unto salvation,

Then put away your NT and get thee to a mohel. Ouch.


 
Quote
the proposition has been proved in infallible divine history:

 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
 12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
 (Act 17:11-12 KJV)

These Bereans confirmed the gospel of Christ is in the Old Testament, they believed and were saved.

How can we trust them?  They went to the synagogue. Where do you find the synagogue in your OT?

Quote
That's the point, they were able to confirm the gospel of Christ is in the OT = able to make wise unto salvation, through faith in Christ Jesus.

And the Magi who worshipped the stars were taught by the star to make them wise unto salvation and fall down in worship before Christ Jesus and His mother.

So, do you check your daily horoscope?

Quote
That's precisely what Paul said, the Gospel of Christ is in the Old Testament, and that evidently is what Orthodoxy denies.

So says the heretic who denies the OT of Christ's Church, and follows the Tanakh of the Pharisees, Sadducees and Scribes.

Quote
Paul is right, Orthodoxy wrong.

Orthodox Paul is right. Paul's Orthodoxy is right.

Persson's Perssonism is wrong.

Quote
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2Ti 3:15 KJV)

All Protestant Systematic Theologies, Strong, Thiessen (my favorite), Hodge, Chafer, Pannenberg, Geisler, Oden, Shedd, Berkouwer, will gladly point it out to you, if you doubt it.
What happened to your sola scriptura?

Systematic heresy is still heresy.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: bogdan on September 08, 2010, 12:27:25 AM
By the way Alfred, you were struggling earlier with exactly how we understand the relationship between Tradition and Scripture. You seemed to present it as an either/or situation that had the two in conflict. I have attempted to demonstrate how we view their relationship with the following chart.

(Orthodox people: if this is incorrect, feel free to suggest how to improve it)

Quaking in your boots you might misstate it, eh?

No, I'm humble enough to realize that I am capable of making an error.

In context this means Paul rejected the spiritual phenomena, the tongues prophecy and knowledge occurring among the Corinthians, as being "the word of God."

That rules out Catholic "living tradition," and whatever you call its counterpart in Orthodoxy, as being "the word of God."

The word of God was once delivered to the church, there aren't multiple deliveries:

 3 ...the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. (Jud 1:3 KJV)

The Word of God is a man, and we have never stated otherwise.

Why do you cite different translations in every post? Are you cherry-picking for the ones that best spin your point of view?
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: ialmisry on September 08, 2010, 12:30:12 AM
Now Alred, that's just rude. No one here is "quaking in their boots" - just being careful to give you the correct information.

Be nice and enjoy the nice cooler weather! :D

He's just h-bent on proving Solomon right.

So don't bother correcting mockers; they will only hate you. But correct the wise, and they will love you. Proverbs 9:8.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: PeterTheAleut on September 08, 2010, 01:35:32 AM
We shun the man-made traditions of Arius, Marcion, Montanus, the Nicholatians, the Gnostics, Nestorius, Novatian, the Manicheans, Rome, Luther, Calvin, Cranmer, Scofield, Joseph Smith, Charles Russell, and all who would elevate their private interpretation above the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by our Lord and His Apostles.
Indeed! ;D  Sola scriptura is a man-made tradition.

Only if sola verbum dei is a man made tradition, and it is not:

NKJ  Acts 5:29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men. (Act 5:29 NKJ)

As it is apostolic tradition the Word of God came to the church, not through it:

NKJ  1 Corinthians 14:36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

Sola verbum dei is today sola scriptura.




I see you've conveniently ignored the posts wherein bogdan and I define how the Orthodox understand Tradition (see Replies #237 & 238 above).  Until you address the content of those posts, I'm sorry there's nothing more we can really debate with you, since you will have shown your unwillingness to address anything other than the straw men of your own creation.  You need to confront what we really believe and not what you want, for the sake of your bluster, to think we believe.
Title: Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
Post by: Alfred Persson on September 08, 2010, 07:26:30 AM
Alfred, I say this in love, but you have once again demonstrated that you don't understand how we view the relationship between Scripture and Tradition. (You also don't seem to quite understand what Tradition even is.)

They are not two separate entities that we judge against each other. Rather, the Scriptures are a part of Tradition, and so they cannot contradict each other. But Tradition cannot be superfluous beside Scripture, because Scripture is a part of Tradition. If Tradition is superfluous, then Scripture, which is under the umbrella of Tradition, is too. In other words, Scripture does not sit beside Tradition. Scripture is a type of Tradition (the most important type, in fact), besides Iconography, Liturgy, the Fathers, etc.

What does that mean? It means that if some practice or teaching of the Church contradicts any part of Tradition, including Scripture, that practice or teaching cannot itself become part of Tradition. Tradition is self-regulating. If something doesn't belong, it quite naturally falls away.

Tradition is the entire life of the Church in all places and times. Therefore everything, including scripture, falls under the auspices of Tradition. You can't call Tradition superfluous if Tradition is everything.

I suppose if you wanted to draw an analogy, you could say Tradition is to Essence as Scripture, Icons, the Fathers, etc are to Energies.

And you present a false dilemma. On those same grounds, having four Gospels is superfluous because most of the stories are exactly the same. (And they disagree on some details, so clearly some of the gospels are false.) However, we say the four Gospels are necessary because their similarity proves they are all true. If there was only one Gospel, we wouldn't know if it was true or not. Anyone can write a book that says anything, but when you have four independent books that agree, you establish validity.

That is what I have been trying to say about interpretation. Anyone can say the Bible says anything. What proves its validity is when the entire Church comes to the same conclusion. When it's just Alfred Persson, that's meaningless. When it's the whole Church, and all of Tradition (ie, the Scriptures, the Fathers, the Hymns, the Icons, everything), that indicates something is true.

All these facets of Tradition, among other things, create a giant circuit of checks and balances that protects the ancient truth from being corrupted by every John Q who has a new take on what the Bible means. That is impossible in the world of Sola Scriptura, because every man, woman, and child thinks it says something different—and has the exegesis to prove it.

Your view of scripture contradicts the sufficiency of scripture, according to you, it does not fully equip without your interpretations:

...what need is there of Councils, when the Nicest is sufficient, as against the Arian heresy...for divine Scripture is sufficient above all things... for the Nicene Bishops did not neglect this matter, but stated the doctrine so exactly, that persons reading their words honestly, cannot but be reminded by them of the religion towards Christ announced in divine Scripture.-Councils of Ariminum and Seleucia, Part I. History of the Councils, Athanasius, sect. 5, 6.

Atahansius wouldn't agree with Modern Orthodoxy scripture is insufficient without your traditions, that is heretical. Just as Nicea is sufficient against Arian heresy, so also scripture is sufficient above all...and it announces the religion of Christ quite clearly to those who accept its teachings.


It  does not follow from my interpreting scripture, that its scripture + interpretation that makes scripture able to equip, because the correct interpretation is determined by the details in scripture, not any human authority.

Its no argument against Scripture's ability to make wise unto salvation----that free will choice to accept its teaching is required for that to occur; THAT is true of food also, it requires free will choice to eat for it to sustain life, BUT it would be irrational to argue food is not nourishing, sufficient to sustain life,  because some refuse to eat it and die.

From your definition of Scripture as melded into Orthodox tradition I perceive the Orthodox have violated a very important commandment of God, that you not add to God's word human tradition:

Ye shall not add to the word which I command you, and ye shall not take from it: keep the commandments of the Lord our God, all that I command you this day. (Deu 4:2 LXE)

The Orthodox view of scripture merged as one into tradition isn't new׃

 3 He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?
 4 "For God commanded, saying,`Honor your father and your mother'; and,`He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.'
 5 "But you say,`Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God"--
 6 `then he need not honor his father or mother.' Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.
 7 "Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
 8 `These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.
 9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'"
 (Mat 15:3-9 NKJ)

Your proposition its impossible Orthodox tradition contradict scripture because it is tradition---is irrational, Like insisting every piece of a picture puzzle fits the other because they are all scrambled up in one bag.

Your claim does not follow as Scripture is a distinct entity, its the Word of God and your tradition is a distinct entity, its the word of men.

All "non falsifiable claims" are unsound, your: "the Scriptures are a part of Tradition, and so they cannot contradict each other"