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Moderated Forums => Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion => Orthodox-Catholic Discussion => Topic started by: stashko on May 10, 2010, 08:45:17 PM

Title: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: stashko on May 10, 2010, 08:45:17 PM
I think I'd rather have a thread of RC's being joyful in their faith than yet another article in some newspaper/blog that uses the much-publicized issues within the various Churches to try and convince people that religion is ridiculous.  We may have our issues, and may believe that the other (RC to OC, and vice-versa) is not the Body of Christ, but at least we're both trying in one way or another to glorify the One God in Three Persons.


Fr.Bless
A orthodox poster on catholic answers said  there, that the catholics worship a different god trinity, Than the Orthodox ,,due to the change the made in the Nicene creed..I have to agree with that poster...We don't worship the same Holy Trinty as they....
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Altar Server on May 10, 2010, 08:50:11 PM
I think I'd rather have a thread of RC's being joyful in their faith than yet another article in some newspaper/blog that uses the much-publicized issues within the various Churches to try and convince people that religion is ridiculous.  We may have our issues, and may believe that the other (RC to OC, and vice-versa) is not the Body of Christ, but at least we're both trying in one way or another to glorify the One God in Three Persons.


Fr.Bless
A orthodox poster on catholic answers said  there, that the catholics worship a different god trinity, Than the Orthodox ,,due to the change the made in the Nicene creed..I have to agree with that poster...We don't worship the same Holy Trinty as they....
Christ is Risen!!!

Stashko as someone who comes from the Catholic church I would have to say we worship the same Holy Trinity.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Fr. George on May 10, 2010, 08:52:39 PM
I think I'd rather have a thread of RC's being joyful in their faith than yet another article in some newspaper/blog that uses the much-publicized issues within the various Churches to try and convince people that religion is ridiculous.  We may have our issues, and may believe that the other (RC to OC, and vice-versa) is not the Body of Christ, but at least we're both trying in one way or another to glorify the One God in Three Persons.


Fr.Bless
A orthodox poster on catholic answers said  there, that the catholics worship a different god trinity, Than the Orthodox ,,due to the change the made in the Nicene creed..I have to agree with that poster...We don't worship the same Holy Trinty as they....
Christ is Risen!!!

Stashko as someone who comes from the Catholic church I would have to say we worship the same Holy Trinity.

Truly He is Risen!

As I said, we try.  From our POV, the addition to the Creed, even if intended to have a different effect, is problematic viz-a-viz the relationship of members of the Trinity.  So his point can be supported.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 10, 2010, 08:53:56 PM
I think I'd rather have a thread of RC's being joyful in their faith than yet another article in some newspaper/blog that uses the much-publicized issues within the various Churches to try and convince people that religion is ridiculous.  We may have our issues, and may believe that the other (RC to OC, and vice-versa) is not the Body of Christ, but at least we're both trying in one way or another to glorify the One God in Three Persons.


Fr.Bless
A orthodox poster on catholic answers said  there, that the catholics worship a different god trinity, Than the Orthodox ,,due to the change the made in the Nicene creed..I have to agree with that poster...We don't worship the same Holy Trinty as they....

Hmmm. That's partially true and partially not. They do believe in the same personalities that the world has come to know through historic Christianity. It is their understanding of the theological natures of those personalities that is warped and different because of the dual origination of the Holy Spirit.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 10, 2010, 08:55:47 PM
I think I'd rather have a thread of RC's being joyful in their faith than yet another article in some newspaper/blog that uses the much-publicized issues within the various Churches to try and convince people that religion is ridiculous.  We may have our issues, and may believe that the other (RC to OC, and vice-versa) is not the Body of Christ, but at least we're both trying in one way or another to glorify the One God in Three Persons.


Fr.Bless
A orthodox poster on catholic answers said  there, that the catholics worship a different god trinity, Than the Orthodox ,,due to the change the made in the Nicene creed..I have to agree with that poster...We don't worship the same Holy Trinty as they....
Christ is Risen!!!

Stashko as someone who comes from the Catholic church I would have to say we worship the same Holy Trinity.

Truly He is Risen!

As I said, we try.  From our POV, the addition to the Creed, even if intended to have a different effect, is problematic viz-a-viz the relationship of members of the Trinity.  So his point can be supported.

What? You're saying that you think that the filioque clause is problematic for Trinitarian theology even if it is understood to only mean the non-ontological emission of the Holy Spirit that is both from the Father and the Son?
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Fr. George on May 10, 2010, 10:32:40 PM
Truly He is Risen!

As I said, we try.  From our POV, the addition to the Creed, even if intended to have a different effect, is problematic viz-a-viz the relationship of members of the Trinity.  So his point can be supported.

What? You're saying that you think that the filioque clause is problematic for Trinitarian theology even if it is understood to only mean the non-ontological emission of the Holy Spirit that is both from the Father and the Son?

What is your objection to my statement?  Make a statement that can be responded to, rather than a vague question that can be answered with the quote you seem to object to.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 10, 2010, 10:34:39 PM
Truly He is Risen!

As I said, we try.  From our POV, the addition to the Creed, even if intended to have a different effect, is problematic viz-a-viz the relationship of members of the Trinity.  So his point can be supported.

What? You're saying that you think that the filioque clause is problematic for Trinitarian theology even if it is understood to only mean the non-ontological emission of the Holy Spirit that is both from the Father and the Son?

What is your objection to my statement?  Make a statement that can be responded to, rather than a vague question that can be answered with the quote you seem to object to.

Why can't you just answer the question?
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: stanley123 on May 10, 2010, 10:56:18 PM
  We may have our issues, and may believe that the other (RC to OC, and vice-versa) is not the Body of Christ, but at least we're both trying in one way or another to glorify the One God in Three Persons.
Thank you Father George. It would be nice if the two Churches could somehow cooperate on issues of mutual agreement, (in spite of the very serious differences which still have to be ironed out).
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Fr. George on May 11, 2010, 07:17:03 AM
What is your objection to my statement?  Make a statement that can be responded to, rather than a vague question that can be answered with the quote you seem to object to.
Why can't you just answer the question?

You obviously did not get my point, so I'll re-make it via example:

What? You're saying that you think that the filioque clause is problematic for Trinitarian theology even if it is understood to only mean the non-ontological emission of the Holy Spirit that is both from the Father and the Son?

From our POV, the addition to the Creed, even if intended to have a different effect, is problematic viz-a-viz the relationship of members of the Trinity. 

In short - make your point, stop dancing around your real question.  No intelligent conversation is had when one asks a question that can easily be answered with a previously made statement that the question itself seemingly objects to!  Present your argument, so I can truly and in a meaningful way answer your question.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 11, 2010, 10:47:39 AM
What is your objection to my statement?  Make a statement that can be responded to, rather than a vague question that can be answered with the quote you seem to object to.
Why can't you just answer the question?

You obviously did not get my point, so I'll re-make it via example:

What? You're saying that you think that the filioque clause is problematic for Trinitarian theology even if it is understood to only mean the non-ontological emission of the Holy Spirit that is both from the Father and the Son?

From our POV, the addition to the Creed, even if intended to have a different effect, is problematic viz-a-viz the relationship of members of the Trinity. 

In short - make your point, stop dancing around your real question.  No intelligent conversation is had when one asks a question that can easily be answered with a previously made statement that the question itself seemingly objects to!  Present your argument, so I can truly and in a meaningful way answer your question.

Why would you think that the idea of the dual procession of the Holy Spirit is problematic for the doctrine of the Trinity aside from with respect to the origination of the Holy Spirit?
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Heorhij on May 11, 2010, 10:59:37 AM
Can't you just be happy and clap your hands as I suggested earlier?

I think we have a thread on church architecture where your pics would be a good addition.

Try to be tolerant

So what are we discussing? The name of this section is "Orthodox-Catholic Discussion.  ::)

I have brought a subject, Catholicism from a happy catholic, Though you seem to be outplaced when invited to see what I do see in The Church. you seem more ready to disqualify any subject that may honor Catholicism, and though I haven´t yet say anything against "orthodoxy", I haven't given you any motive for you to be upset and yet that is what it seems to bother you.

I am not upset or bothered - in fact, I really like your beautiful pictures, and I admire your love for your Church. Yet, it looks like you and I have different ideas about what "discussion" is...

What Would you like tu discuss

Well, there are hundreds of topics. For example: why Filioque (esp. how could it be adopted by a local council in Toledo without approval of the Eastern jurisdictions, and in the face of the already existing consensus that there should be no additions to the Creed). Or what exactly do the words "vicar of Christ" or "Pontificus Maximus" mean.
Approval of the Eastern jurisdictions? Who needs it?! LOL. The Easts spent so much time in heresy during the time of the Fathers that the approval of the East is not necessarily a badge of honor.

But that's a weak argument. Of course the Church needs approval of ALL her jurisdictions in order to go ahead with something as important as changing the Creed. The Church has a counciliar nature, just like the Trinity! As for heresies, well, you have a point that there were monumental heresies originiating in the East - but there were also hierarchs in the West who were happy to join them. Pope Honorius for one...
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Fr. George on May 11, 2010, 11:36:34 AM
Why would you think that the idea of the dual procession of the Holy Spirit is problematic for the doctrine of the Trinity aside from with respect to the origination of the Holy Spirit?

I think the addition to the Creed of the filioque is problematic because it requires far too much explanation to encapsulate the point from the RC POV.  The addition of the filioque, in order to be understood in a potentially non-heretical manner, would require an entire paragraph of addition to the Creed, IMO. I actually think it is an insult to the fathers of the first two ecumenical councils, who spend considerable time hashing out the minutae of the language of the creed related to the faith that was held by all true Christians since Christ, to add a word which has admittedly and plainly dual and potentially conflicting interpretations and which is the source of such division in the Church.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: ialmisry on May 11, 2010, 12:10:07 PM
Can't you just be happy and clap your hands as I suggested earlier?

I think we have a thread on church architecture where your pics would be a good addition.

Try to be tolerant

So what are we discussing? The name of this section is "Orthodox-Catholic Discussion.  ::)

I have brought a subject, Catholicism from a happy catholic, Though you seem to be outplaced when invited to see what I do see in The Church. you seem more ready to disqualify any subject that may honor Catholicism, and though I haven´t yet say anything against "orthodoxy", I haven't given you any motive for you to be upset and yet that is what it seems to bother you.

I am not upset or bothered - in fact, I really like your beautiful pictures, and I admire your love for your Church. Yet, it looks like you and I have different ideas about what "discussion" is...

What Would you like tu discuss

Well, there are hundreds of topics. For example: why Filioque (esp. how could it be adopted by a local council in Toledo without approval of the Eastern jurisdictions, and in the face of the already existing consensus that there should be no additions to the Creed). Or what exactly do the words "vicar of Christ" or "Pontificus Maximus" mean.
Approval of the Eastern jurisdictions? Who needs it?! LOL. The Easts spent so much time in heresy during the time of the Fathers that the approval of the East is not necessarily a badge of honor.

But that's a weak argument. Of course the Church needs approval of ALL her jurisdictions in order to go ahead with something as important as changing the Creed. The Church has a counciliar nature, just like the Trinity! As for heresies, well, you have a point that there were monumental heresies originiating in the East - but there were also hierarchs in the West who were happy to join them. Pope Honorius for one...
One, Holy, Catholid and Apostolic Church is conciliar, but the church that inserted the filioque only has concils as rubber stamps for its supreme pontiff.

Of course accusation that the East was full of heresy ignores that it was the most Christianized area until well after the schism.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: stashko on May 11, 2010, 06:37:07 PM
He changed God by Aesteticism.

Do you think that we Orthodox believe in a different God than you Catholics?
Same God.

No! No! No! not at all ,,Not the same..Your trinity is not our Holy Trinity..You Changes to another one ,Holy Orthodoxy doesn't recognize it...
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: stanley123 on May 11, 2010, 07:21:41 PM
He changed God by Aesteticism.

Do you think that we Orthodox believe in a different God than you Catholics?
Same God.

No! No! No! not at all ,,Not the same..Your trinity is not our Holy Trinity..You Changes to another one ,Holy Orthodoxy doesn't recognize it...
That's interesting. As Catholics we pray to God, the Supreme Being  who made all things, Our Father  who art in heaven. Now you are telling me that in the Holy Orthodox Church you do not pray to the Supreme Being who made all things, you do not pray to Our Father who art in heaven, but to someone different?
And what about Mary, the Holy Theotokos and Mother of God.  As Catholics many of us pray to Mary, the Mother of God and the Holy Theotokos every day? Do you pray to a different person or do you pray to the same Holy Mary, Mother of God as Catholics?
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Papist on May 18, 2010, 02:02:57 PM
He changed God by Aesteticism.

Do you think that we Orthodox believe in a different God than you Catholics?
Same God.

No! No! No! not at all ,,Not the same..Your trinity is not our Holy Trinity..You Changes to another one ,Holy Orthodoxy doesn't recognize it...
Nope. Same God.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: stanley123 on May 18, 2010, 02:20:46 PM
He changed God by Aesteticism.

Do you think that we Orthodox believe in a different God than you Catholics?
Same God.

No! No! No! not at all ,,Not the same..Your trinity is not our Holy Trinity..You Changes to another one ,Holy Orthodoxy doesn't recognize it...
Nope. Same God.
That’s what I think, That Orthodox pray to the same God as do Catholics. However, it appears from this that Orthodox do not agree with this. I know that as a Catholic I pray to the Supreme Being who made all things,
The question now is whether or not Orthodox pray to the same Mary, the Mother of God as do Catholics? As Catholics we pray to Holy Mary Mother of God. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Papist on May 18, 2010, 02:23:21 PM
He changed God by Aesteticism.

Do you think that we Orthodox believe in a different God than you Catholics?
Same God.

No! No! No! not at all ,,Not the same..Your trinity is not our Holy Trinity..You Changes to another one ,Holy Orthodoxy doesn't recognize it...
Nope. Same God.
That’s what I think, That Orthodox pray to the same God as do Catholics. However, it appears from this that Orthodox do not agree with this. I know that as a Catholic I pray to the Supreme Being who made all things,
The question now is whether or not Orthodox pray to the same Mary, the Mother of God as do Catholics? As Catholics we pray to Holy Mary Mother of God. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

I don't think that all Orthodox think that we pray to different gods.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 18, 2010, 02:30:38 PM
He changed God by Aesteticism.

Do you think that we Orthodox believe in a different God than you Catholics?
Same God.

No! No! No! not at all ,,Not the same..Your trinity is not our Holy Trinity..You Changes to another one ,Holy Orthodoxy doesn't recognize it...
Nope. Same God.
That’s what I think, That Orthodox pray to the same God as do Catholics. However, it appears from this that Orthodox do not agree with this. I know that as a Catholic I pray to the Supreme Being who made all things,
The question now is whether or not Orthodox pray to the same Mary, the Mother of God as do Catholics? As Catholics we pray to Holy Mary Mother of God. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

I don't think that all Orthodox think that we pray to different gods.
No, only stashko does (and maybe a few others like him).
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 18, 2010, 02:35:49 PM
Why would you think that the idea of the dual procession of the Holy Spirit is problematic for the doctrine of the Trinity aside from with respect to the origination of the Holy Spirit?

I think the addition to the Creed of the filioque is problematic because it requires far too much explanation to encapsulate the point from the RC POV.  The addition of the filioque, in order to be understood in a potentially non-heretical manner, would require an entire paragraph of addition to the Creed, IMO. I actually think it is an insult to the fathers of the first two ecumenical councils, who spend considerable time hashing out the minutae of the language of the creed related to the faith that was held by all true Christians since Christ, to add a word which has admittedly and plainly dual and potentially conflicting interpretations and which is the source of such division in the Church.

It wouldn't be all that difficult to come to an understanding that the filioque is only an indication that the Holy Spirit is emitted and sent from both the Father and the Son, if that was what the Latins believed (which I don't think it is). How would it be problematic for the doctrine of the Trinity if that was the case?
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 18, 2010, 02:37:35 PM
He changed God by Aesteticism.

Do you think that we Orthodox believe in a different God than you Catholics?
Same God.

No! No! No! not at all ,,Not the same..Your trinity is not our Holy Trinity..You Changes to another one ,Holy Orthodoxy doesn't recognize it...

Stashko, what you do you have to say about this post?:

I think I'd rather have a thread of RC's being joyful in their faith than yet another article in some newspaper/blog that uses the much-publicized issues within the various Churches to try and convince people that religion is ridiculous.  We may have our issues, and may believe that the other (RC to OC, and vice-versa) is not the Body of Christ, but at least we're both trying in one way or another to glorify the One God in Three Persons.


Fr.Bless
A orthodox poster on catholic answers said  there, that the catholics worship a different god trinity, Than the Orthodox ,,due to the change the made in the Nicene creed..I have to agree with that poster...We don't worship the same Holy Trinty as they....

Hmmm. That's partially true and partially not. They do believe in the same personalities that the world has come to know through historic Christianity. It is their understanding of the theological natures of those personalities that is warped and different because of the dual origination of the Holy Spirit.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 18, 2010, 02:40:01 PM
He changed God by Aesteticism.

Do you think that we Orthodox believe in a different God than you Catholics?
Same God.

No! No! No! not at all ,,Not the same..Your trinity is not our Holy Trinity..You Changes to another one ,Holy Orthodoxy doesn't recognize it...
That's interesting. As Catholics we pray to God, the Supreme Being  who made all things, Our Father  who art in heaven. Now you are telling me that in the Holy Orthodox Church you do not pray to the Supreme Being who made all things, you do not pray to Our Father who art in heaven, but to someone different?
And what about Mary, the Holy Theotokos and Mother of God.  As Catholics many of us pray to Mary, the Mother of God and the Holy Theotokos every day? Do you pray to a different person or do you pray to the same Holy Mary, Mother of God as Catholics?

We would say that we pray to God the Father who is the sole unoriginated source of being in the Godhead and constitutes its singular principle. You, on the other hand, have made the Godhead itself the source of being and have thus produced a rather distinct doctrine of the Trinity that could even call into question the nature of the Father Himself.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Papist on May 18, 2010, 02:45:12 PM
He changed God by Aesteticism.

Do you think that we Orthodox believe in a different God than you Catholics?
Same God.

No! No! No! not at all ,,Not the same..Your trinity is not our Holy Trinity..You Changes to another one ,Holy Orthodoxy doesn't recognize it...
That's interesting. As Catholics we pray to God, the Supreme Being  who made all things, Our Father  who art in heaven. Now you are telling me that in the Holy Orthodox Church you do not pray to the Supreme Being who made all things, you do not pray to Our Father who art in heaven, but to someone different?
And what about Mary, the Holy Theotokos and Mother of God.  As Catholics many of us pray to Mary, the Mother of God and the Holy Theotokos every day? Do you pray to a different person or do you pray to the same Holy Mary, Mother of God as Catholics?

We would say that we pray to God the Father who is the sole unoriginated source of being in the Godhead and constitutes its singular principle. You, on the other hand, have made the Godhead itself the source of being and have thus produced a rather distinct doctrine of the Trinity that could even call into question the nature of the Father Himself.
asenine
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 18, 2010, 02:53:01 PM
He changed God by Aesteticism.

Do you think that we Orthodox believe in a different God than you Catholics?
Same God.

No! No! No! not at all ,,Not the same..Your trinity is not our Holy Trinity..You Changes to another one ,Holy Orthodoxy doesn't recognize it...
That's interesting. As Catholics we pray to God, the Supreme Being  who made all things, Our Father  who art in heaven. Now you are telling me that in the Holy Orthodox Church you do not pray to the Supreme Being who made all things, you do not pray to Our Father who art in heaven, but to someone different?
And what about Mary, the Holy Theotokos and Mother of God.  As Catholics many of us pray to Mary, the Mother of God and the Holy Theotokos every day? Do you pray to a different person or do you pray to the same Holy Mary, Mother of God as Catholics?

We would say that we pray to God the Father who is the sole unoriginated source of being in the Godhead and constitutes its singular principle. You, on the other hand, have made the Godhead itself the source of being and have thus produced a rather distinct doctrine of the Trinity that could even call into question the nature of the Father Himself.
asenine
How is this asinine?  He's not saying you worship another Trinity.  He's merely acknowledging that, even though we may indeed worship the same Trinity, the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox understandings of the Trinity are sufficiently different to warrant criticism.  I happen to agree with him.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 18, 2010, 02:56:31 PM
I'm saying that you worship the same personalities but do not have a proper understanding of their nature.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: stashko on May 18, 2010, 02:57:08 PM
  For example the catholic jesus from there trinity ,pops up on occasion in talking apparitions ,like in the sacred heart, divine mercy,giving strange or other way's  of salvation ,Unkown to the Holy Fathers Faith Once delivered..So How Can it Be The same..... ;D
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: LizaSymonenko on May 18, 2010, 02:58:29 PM

That's interesting. As Catholics we pray to God, the Supreme Being  who made all things, Our Father  who art in heaven. Now you are telling me that in the Holy Orthodox Church you do not pray to the Supreme Being who made all things, you do not pray to Our Father who art in heaven, but to someone different?
And what about Mary, the Holy Theotokos and Mother of God.  As Catholics many of us pray to Mary, the Mother of God and the Holy Theotokos every day? Do you pray to a different person or do you pray to the same Holy Mary, Mother of God as Catholics?


I just wanted to voice a slight objection to how the Roman Catholics who seem to hold the Mother of God in such high esteem....refer to her on such a familiar basis as simply "Mary".  I've heard this a number of times and it offends me.

Just a couple of weeks ago I was at a function where a Byzantine Catholic priest stood up for the closing prayer and then gave a few words.  His constant referral to "Maria" just irritated me.  Maria, who?  Fraulein Maria?

As for the Holy Trinity, isn't the correct understanding of the relation between all Three important?

For example, if you have a family of three individuals....the entire family "structure" depends on their relation to one another.  They could be both parents and a child, 3 siblings, a grandparent, parent and grandchild, cousins, etc.

Isn't the correct understanding of their relationship to one another a major factor in our relationship and understanding of them?

I explain the Holy Trinity in simple words to my little students.

God the Father is the candle.  Christ is the Light of the world, and thereby the flame.  God the Holy Spirit works invisibly and is felt not seen, therefore, He is the heat emitted by the candle. Yet, both flame and heat are an integral part of the candle.  The candle is the source of both.




Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: scamandrius on May 18, 2010, 02:59:46 PM
asenine

No, just your spelling is.

Saying that the addition of the filioque or its absence from the creed amounts to confessing the same theology is asinine.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: stashko on May 18, 2010, 03:06:27 PM
The Catholic Mary is also Strange, Appearing in Apparitions pointing to herself giving odd messages.
Even the catholic Mary isn't the same as the Orthodox Blessed Theotokos...
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Mickey on May 18, 2010, 03:07:31 PM
I just wanted to voice a slight objection to how the Roman Catholics who seem to hold the Mother of God in such high esteem....refer to her on such a familiar basis as simply "Mary".  I've heard this a number of times and it offends me.

Whew! I thought I was the only one who was offended. I have also noticed that many RC's also refer to the Apostles as Peter, John, Paul, etc---instead of St Peter, St John, St Paul....... ???
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 18, 2010, 03:10:14 PM
I just wanted to voice a slight objection to how the Roman Catholics who seem to hold the Mother of God in such high esteem....refer to her on such a familiar basis as simply "Mary".  I've heard this a number of times and it offends me.

Whew! I thought I was the only one who was offended. I have also noticed that many RC's also refer to the Apostles as Peter, John, Paul, etc---instead of St Peter, St John, St Paul....... ???
Great! ::)  Now you have me waiting to hear strands of that song, "Puff the Magic Dragon". :P
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Altar Server on May 18, 2010, 03:12:30 PM
Quote
As I said, we try.  From our POV, the addition to the Creed, even if intended to have a different effect, is problematic viz-a-viz the relationship of members of the Trinity.  So his point can be supported

Father Bless!

I agree that the filioque muddles things alot but does that have to mean we worship diffrent Gods? from what I understand Rome understands the filioque as meaning that the Holy Sprit proceeds from the Father through the Son...which as far as I know is orthodox(am I right there?)
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: stanley123 on May 18, 2010, 03:32:17 PM
I'm saying that you worship the same personalities but do not have a proper understanding of their nature.
Well, that's different from what I understood above.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: stanley123 on May 18, 2010, 03:34:53 PM
The Catholic Mary is also Strange, Appearing in Apparitions pointing to herself giving odd messages.
Even the catholic Mary isn't the same as the Orthodox Blessed Theotokos...

So you do not pray to the Blessed Virgin Mary? Holy Mary,  Mother of God. Blessed art thou amongst women and Blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus?
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: scamandrius on May 18, 2010, 03:38:52 PM

Father Bless!

I agree that the filioque muddles things alot but does that have to mean we worship diffrent Gods? from what I understand Rome understands the filioque as meaning that the Holy Sprit proceeds from the Father through the Son...which as far as I know is orthodox(am I right there?)

Not necessarily and even RC church history would suggest that the two formulae are the same.  At a local synod in the western church in the 11th century, per Filium, "through the Son" was vehemently rejected.  I'll have to get my copy of Runciman's Eastern Schism out to check the particulars.  But, logically, "though" and "from" are not one and the same thing.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on May 18, 2010, 03:39:13 PM
Whew! I thought I was the only one who was offended. I have also noticed that many RC's also refer to the Apostles as Peter, John, Paul, etc---instead of St Peter, St John, St Paul....... ???

Egalitarianism prevails.

I agree with the general sentiment, that we worship the same personalities, but that the relationship between them has been distorted in the Roman Catholic Church, and subsequently in the Magisterial Reformation.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 18, 2010, 03:49:57 PM
I just wanted to voice a slight objection to how the Roman Catholics who seem to hold the Mother of God in such high esteem....refer to her on such a familiar basis as simply "Mary".  I've heard this a number of times and it offends me.

Just a couple of weeks ago I was at a function where a Byzantine Catholic priest stood up for the closing prayer and then gave a few words.  His constant referral to "Maria" just irritated me.  Maria, who?  Fraulein Maria?

That actually makes sense to me. She is so important in comparison to the others that if one just says "Mary", it should be clear that one is referring to the birth-giver of the Logos.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 18, 2010, 03:51:28 PM
Quote
As I said, we try.  From our POV, the addition to the Creed, even if intended to have a different effect, is problematic viz-a-viz the relationship of members of the Trinity.  So his point can be supported

Father Bless!

I agree that the filioque muddles things alot but does that have to mean we worship diffrent Gods? from what I understand Rome understands the filioque as meaning that the Holy Sprit proceeds from the Father through the Son...which as far as I know is orthodox(am I right there?)

How is that consistent with "the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father and from the Son as from one principle"?
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 18, 2010, 03:52:16 PM
I'm saying that you worship the same personalities but do not have a proper understanding of their nature.
Well, that's different from what I understood above.

That's not what stashko appears to be saying but that is what I have been saying all along.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 18, 2010, 03:54:14 PM
But, logically, "though" and "from" are not one and the same thing.

With respect to ontological origin, I agree that "through" and "from" cannot be the same.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Mickey on May 18, 2010, 03:54:21 PM
Now you have me waiting to hear strands of that song, "Puff the Magic Dragon".

Those fabulous sixties!  :P
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Papist on May 18, 2010, 05:38:19 PM
I'm saying that you worship the same personalities but do not have a proper understanding of their nature.
Ok, that's fair. Perhaps I overreacted.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Papist on May 18, 2010, 05:40:07 PM
asenine

No, just your spelling is.

Saying that the addition of the filioque or its absence from the creed amounts to confessing the same theology is asinine.
You mean the patristic teaching of the filioque? Oh, yeah, its not the Fathers for you guys, or even the Greek Fathers, but only those who explicite endorse the mondern ethnocentric EO view on any given matter.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: ialmisry on May 18, 2010, 05:47:07 PM
asenine

No, just your spelling is.

Saying that the addition of the filioque or its absence from the creed amounts to confessing the same theology is asinine.
You mean the patristic teaching of the filioque?

That it is heresy, yes.

Quote
Oh, yeah, its not the Fathers for you guys, or even the Greek Fathers, but only those who explicite endorse the mondern ethnocentric EO view on any given matter.
Is that what St. Augustine said?
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Jetavan on May 18, 2010, 05:49:50 PM
Stashko's point, though, if dismissed, would lead to the logical conclusion that the Orthodox and the Muslims both worship God the Father, with one community having the fullest understanding of God than the other.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 18, 2010, 06:00:59 PM
Stashko's point, though, if dismissed, would lead to the logical conclusion that the Orthodox and the Muslims both worship God the Father, with one community having the fullest understanding of God than the other.

Two points:

1. Yes, we must admit that if one group does not understand the nature of the persons of the Trinity and another does that the first group's worship is deficient in comparison. That must I will admit.

2. The worship of a Muslim can obviously be recognized as deficient to a much greater degree than the (Old) Romans. Yes, they have encountered a historical personality through the pre-Advent Jews that they worship. However, the Romans recognize the a triad of personalities in the Godhead whereas the Muslims do not. Also, the Romans recognize the Father as father in a sense that the Muslims certain do not.

Thus, I think we can still conclude that Muslims do not worship the Father in the same sense that the orthodox do. I think John 4:19-24 also supports the notion of there being deficient forms of worship.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 18, 2010, 06:02:52 PM
asenine

No, just your spelling is.

Saying that the addition of the filioque or its absence from the creed amounts to confessing the same theology is asinine.
You mean the patristic teaching of the filioque? Oh, yeah, its not the Fathers for you guys, or even the Greek Fathers, but only those who explicite endorse the mondern ethnocentric EO view on any given matter.

Some form of filioquism could be supported by some of the Eastern Fathers, but never the ontological form that your church developed.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Jetavan on May 18, 2010, 06:04:15 PM
Stashko's point, though, if dismissed, would lead to the logical conclusion that the Orthodox and the Muslims both worship God the Father, with one community having the fullest understanding of God than the other.

Two points:

1. Yes, we must admit that if one group does not understand the nature of the persons of the Trinity and another does that the first group's worship is deficient in comparison. That must I will admit.

2. The worship of a Muslim can obviously be recognized as deficient to a much greater degree than the (Old) Romans. Yes, they have encountered a historical personality through the pre-Advent Jews that they worship. However, the Romans recognize the a triad of personalities in the Godhead whereas the Muslims do not. Also, the Romans recognize the Father as father in a sense that the Muslims certain do not.

Thus, I think we can still conclude that Muslims do not worship the Father in the same sense that the orthodox do. I think John 4:19-24 also supports the notion of there being deficient forms of worship.
So you're saying that the Muslims worship the Father, but deficiently?
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 18, 2010, 06:07:44 PM
Stashko's point, though, if dismissed, would lead to the logical conclusion that the Orthodox and the Muslims both worship God the Father, with one community having the fullest understanding of God than the other.

Lex orandi lex credendi. If the nature of our understanding of God is different, so will the nature of our worship be different.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 18, 2010, 06:10:59 PM
Stashko's point, though, if dismissed, would lead to the logical conclusion that the Orthodox and the Muslims both worship God the Father, with one community having the fullest understanding of God than the other.

Two points:

1. Yes, we must admit that if one group does not understand the nature of the persons of the Trinity and another does that the first group's worship is deficient in comparison. That must I will admit.

2. The worship of a Muslim can obviously be recognized as deficient to a much greater degree than the (Old) Romans. Yes, they have encountered a historical personality through the pre-Advent Jews that they worship. However, the Romans recognize the a triad of personalities in the Godhead whereas the Muslims do not. Also, the Romans recognize the Father as father in a sense that the Muslims certain do not.

Thus, I think we can still conclude that Muslims do not worship the Father in the same sense that the orthodox do. I think John 4:19-24 also supports the notion of there being deficient forms of worship.
So you're saying that the Muslims worship the Father, but deficiently?

I think to say that they "worship the Father" is to give them too much credit. If they do not sufficiently identify and distinguish the Father as we understand Him to be the Father, then how would it be appropriate to say that they worship Him? We could say that they "worship the God of Abraham", but to go further to identify that with one of the persons of the Trinity would be to inappropriately Christianize them.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Papist on May 18, 2010, 06:27:51 PM
asenine

No, just your spelling is.

Saying that the addition of the filioque or its absence from the creed amounts to confessing the same theology is asinine.
You mean the patristic teaching of the filioque?

That it is heresy, yes.

Quote
Oh, yeah, its not the Fathers for you guys, or even the Greek Fathers, but only those who explicite endorse the mondern ethnocentric EO view on any given matter.

Is that what St. Augustine said?
Sure whatever. This has been debated here endlessly and your side has failed to sufficiently defent its position.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on May 18, 2010, 07:25:08 PM
Stashko's point, though, if dismissed, would lead to the logical conclusion that the Orthodox and the Muslims both worship God the Father, with one community having the fullest understanding of God than the other.

So the question ends up being about how much distortion can take place before the Deity becomes entirely different on a conceptual level? Is it a question of emphasis/emphases? Do Evangelicals that overemphasizes the cuddly nature of God as a super-friend make Him a different God?
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on May 18, 2010, 07:26:23 PM
Sure whatever. This has been debated here endlessly and your side has failed to sufficiently defent its position.

No, I remember that you and the other Roman Catholics lost the debate and were proven completely wrong. It actually happened twice.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Papist on May 18, 2010, 07:28:58 PM
Sure whatever. This has been debated here endlessly and your side has failed to sufficiently defent its position.

No, I remember that you and the other Roman Catholics lost the debate and were proven completely wrong. It actually happened twice.
You must not have been paying attention. Perhaps that's why defected.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 18, 2010, 07:46:30 PM
The "'we won', 'no we won'" routine is utterly inane.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: scamandrius on May 18, 2010, 07:47:20 PM
Sure whatever. This has been debated here endlessly and your side has failed to sufficiently defent its position.

Perhaps to your mind, it hasn't, but we place the surety of our faith in Christ's Church which taught definitively that the Filioque is heresy.  What more defense is needed?

BTW, can we use spell checker?  First it was "asenine" and now "defent."  
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: stanley123 on May 18, 2010, 08:43:49 PM
Sure whatever. This has been debated here endlessly and your side has failed to sufficiently defent its position.

No, I remember that you and the other Roman Catholics lost the debate and were proven completely wrong. It actually happened twice.
I recall that there was some question about St. Augustine and what he believed on the filioque. Was this ever resolved?
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on May 18, 2010, 09:59:31 PM
The "'we won', 'no we won'" routine is utterly inane.

Actually, I was simply trying to point out how easy it is to make a statement without qualifying it. Those types of posts are the most frustrating to deal with, because they require all sorts of work to refute when they are utterly effortless on the part of the initial poster.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Marc1152 on May 18, 2010, 11:06:23 PM
Stashko's point, though, if dismissed, would lead to the logical conclusion that the Orthodox and the Muslims both worship God the Father, with one community having the fullest understanding of God than the other.

So the question ends up being about how much distortion can take place before the Deity becomes entirely different on a conceptual level? Is it a question of emphasis/emphases? Do Evangelicals that overemphasizes the cuddly nature of God as a super-friend make Him a different God?

It makes them have a false conception of God.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Papist on May 19, 2010, 02:29:08 PM
Sure whatever. This has been debated here endlessly and your side has failed to sufficiently defent its position.

Perhaps to your mind, it hasn't, but we place the surety of our faith in Christ's Church which taught definitively that the Filioque is heresy.  What more defense is needed?

BTW, can we use spell checker?  First it was "asenine" and now "defent."  
No, Christ's Church teaches that the Filioque is truth.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on May 19, 2010, 03:30:34 PM
No, Christ's Church teaches that the Filioque is truth.

No it doesn't. Nuh-uh. Wrong Church, dude. Better luck next time.

See how helpful those sort of responses are?  ;)
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Mickey on May 19, 2010, 03:35:03 PM
No, Christ's Church teaches that the Filioque is truth.

No it doesn't. Nuh-uh. Wrong Church, dude. Better luck next time.

See how helpful those sort of responses are?  ;)

LOL!  :laugh:
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 19, 2010, 05:30:00 PM
The "'we won', 'no we won'" routine is utterly inane.

Actually, I was simply trying to point out how easy it is to make a statement without qualifying it. Those types of posts are the most frustrating to deal with, because they require all sorts of work to refute when they are utterly effortless on the part of the initial poster.

Not if you just retort with the burden of proof.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 19, 2010, 05:31:25 PM
Sure whatever. This has been debated here endlessly and your side has failed to sufficiently defent its position.

Perhaps to your mind, it hasn't, but we place the surety of our faith in Christ's Church which taught definitively that the Filioque is heresy.  What more defense is needed?

BTW, can we use spell checker?  First it was "asenine" and now "defent."  
No, Christ's Church teaches that the Filioque is truth.

Oh brother.  ::)
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 19, 2010, 06:21:15 PM
Here's proof that there is at least one Orthodox person who has the capacity to grasp what the filioque means in Catholic teaching:


http://bekkos.wordpress.com/2010/04/07/notes-on-a-text-by-severian-of-gabala/
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: HandmaidenofGod on May 19, 2010, 07:18:10 PM
IMHO, the filioque is wrong simply for the fact it wasn't included in the Original Creed.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Simple as that.

Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: LBK on May 19, 2010, 07:22:27 PM
Here's proof that there is at least one Orthodox person who has the capacity to grasp what the filioque means in Catholic teaching:

http://bekkos.wordpress.com/2010/04/07/notes-on-a-text-by-severian-of-gabala/

The opinion of one man does not Orthodox consensus patrum make.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 19, 2010, 07:30:45 PM
Here's proof that there is at least one Orthodox person who has the capacity to grasp what the filioque means in Catholic teaching:

http://bekkos.wordpress.com/2010/04/07/notes-on-a-text-by-severian-of-gabala/

The opinion of one man does not Orthodox consensus patrum make.

 :laugh:

But this one happens to be a particularly good opinion, and it is the actual foundation on which any eventual mutual understanding will have to be built, so even though you have offered the tried and true Orthodox response to all solid thinking coming from one brave Orthodox soul...it is still worth reading for truth's sake.

Mary
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Fr. George on May 19, 2010, 07:33:42 PM
(Emphasis mine:)

Here's proof that there is at least one Orthodox person who has the capacity to grasp what the filioque means in Catholic teaching:

Tsk, tsk.  An ad hominem of the widest scope.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 19, 2010, 07:38:05 PM
(Emphasis mine:)

Here's proof that there is at least one Orthodox person who has the capacity to grasp what the filioque means in Catholic teaching:

Tsk, tsk.  An ad hominem of the widest scope.

But I did not mean it to be an ad hominem.  It was entirely unintentional.  I didn't try to insult anyone at all much less everyone at all.

Any more than any one here has ever meant or tried to insult me, as you said yourself in the other thread.

Did you read what is contained in the bekkos post/comments?  It's actually quite good and clear headed.

M.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: LBK on May 19, 2010, 08:15:19 PM
Quote
Did you read what is contained in the bekkos post/comments?  It's actually quite good and clear headed.

It might fit what you want to believe. However, I'm afraid it is still contrary to established Orthodox doctrine and theology, no matter how you want to slice it.  ;)
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 19, 2010, 08:41:09 PM
Quote
Did you read what is contained in the bekkos post/comments?  It's actually quite good and clear headed.

It might fit what you want to believe. However, I'm afraid it is still contrary to established Orthodox doctrine and theology, no matter how you want to slice it.  ;)

In order for that to have any more impact that a wink and a nod, you'd have to engage the text and show me how it is contrary to patristic teaching.

Mary
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: LBK on May 19, 2010, 08:48:14 PM
Quote
To God the Father, the Unbegotten, and to the Only-begotten Son, begotten from him, and to the Holy Spirit who proceeds from their essence, to the Three in One substance, be all glory, now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.

The Father, not the Son, is the source of the Holy Spirit.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 19, 2010, 08:58:09 PM
Quote
To God the Father, the Unbegotten, and to the Only-begotten Son, begotten from him, and to the Holy Spirit who proceeds from their essence, to the Three in One substance, be all glory, now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.

The Father, not the Son, is the source of the Holy Spirit.


Writings of a Greek-speaking Syrian bishop named Severian of Gabala:

"Three and One, One and Three: for we profess one essence of the Holy Trinity, in three hypostases of perfect persons. For the person of the Father is not the person of the Son, nor is the person of the Son, or that of the Holy Spirit, the person of the Father, albeit it is, indeed, out of the one very essence of the Father that the Son and the Holy Spirit exist. For the Only-begotten Son, who before all ages exists both from the Father and with the Father, is God with God, and is, the very same, man with men, without any falling away from his divinity, even if he is found to have taken on manhood, nor is he cast down from his first nativity, even if, by his fleshly nativity from a virgin, he has appeared as one born in the flesh. Rather, even while he was in the Virgin’s womb, the heavens and the earth and the whole creation had not been emptied of him.

To God the Father, the Unbegotten, and to the Only-begotten Son, begotten from him [the Ubegotten], and to the Holy Spirit who proceeds† from their essence, to the Three in One substance, be all glory, now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen."
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: LBK on May 19, 2010, 09:19:25 PM
Quote
"Three and One, One and Three: for we profess one essence of the Holy Trinity, in three hypostases of perfect persons. For the person of the Father is not the person of the Son, nor is the person of the Son, or that of the Holy Spirit, the person of the Father, albeit it is, indeed, out of the one very essence of the Father that the Son and the Holy Spirit exist. For the Only-begotten Son, who before all ages exists both from the Father and with the Father, is God with God, and is, the very same, man with men, without any falling away from his divinity, even if he is found to have taken on manhood, nor is he cast down from his first nativity, even if, by his fleshly nativity from a virgin, he has appeared as one born in the flesh. Rather, even while he was in the Virgin’s womb, the heavens and the earth and the whole creation had not been emptied of him.

No problem with this, this is perfectly in keeping with Orthodox doctrine.

Quote
To God the Father, the Unbegotten, and to the Only-begotten Son, begotten from him [the Unbegotten], and to the Holy Spirit who proceeds from their essenceto the Three in One substance, be all glory, now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen."
,

Note the bolded section:
Quote
proceeds from their essence
. Wrong, according to Orthodox doctrine. God the Father is the sole source of both the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Quote
In order for that to have any more impact that a wink and a nod, you'd have to engage the text and show me how it is contrary to patristic teaching.

Isn't the Nicean-Constantinopolitan Creed sufficiently authoritative for you?
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 19, 2010, 09:29:52 PM
Quote
"Three and One, One and Three: for we profess one essence of the Holy Trinity, in three hypostases of perfect persons. For the person of the Father is not the person of the Son, nor is the person of the Son, or that of the Holy Spirit, the person of the Father, albeit it is, indeed, out of the one very essence of the Father that the Son and the Holy Spirit exist. For the Only-begotten Son, who before all ages exists both from the Father and with the Father, is God with God, and is, the very same, man with men, without any falling away from his divinity, even if he is found to have taken on manhood, nor is he cast down from his first nativity, even if, by his fleshly nativity from a virgin, he has appeared as one born in the flesh. Rather, even while he was in the Virgin’s womb, the heavens and the earth and the whole creation had not been emptied of him.

No problem with this, this is perfectly in keeping with Orthodox doctrine.

To God the Father, the Unbegotten, and to the Only-begotten Son, begotten from him [the Unbegotten], and to the Holy Spirit
Quote
who proceeds from their essence
, to the Three in One substance, be all glory, now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen."

Note the bolded section:
Quote
proceeds from their essence
. Wrong, according to Orthodox doctrine. God the Father is the sole source of both the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Quote
In order for that to have any more impact that a wink and a nod, you'd have to engage the text and show me how it is contrary to patristic teaching.

Isn't the Nicean-Constantinopolitan Creed sufficiently authoritative for you?


Have you read Jarislav Pelikan's book on the Creeds?  Quite a good read.

The Catholic Church teaches that the Father is the Source of the Holy Spirit who spirates eternally from the Father and the Son as from one essential principle, since the Father and the Son are one in essence. 

The second part of that statement does not negate the Father as Source in any way.  It would be heresy to do so.

Apparently this Syrian Bishop understood that somewhat in advance of the filioque.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 19, 2010, 09:32:25 PM
Here's proof that there is at least one Orthodox person who has the capacity to grasp what the filioque means in Catholic teaching:

http://bekkos.wordpress.com/2010/04/07/notes-on-a-text-by-severian-of-gabala/

The opinion of one man does not Orthodox consensus patrum make.

I don't think this opinion is even what elijahmaria is trying to make it to be. It seems more consistent with the EO-OO teaching to me.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 19, 2010, 09:45:46 PM
Quote
To God the Father, the Unbegotten, and to the Only-begotten Son, begotten from him, and to the Holy Spirit who proceeds from their essence, to the Three in One substance, be all glory, now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.

The Father, not the Son, is the source of the Holy Spirit.


Saying that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the essence of the Father (which the Son shares with Him) does not necessitate the Son having a direct role in the Spirit's procession. This statement is compatible with the idea that the Father is the one who issues forth the Spirit from His essence, an essence which He shares with the Son, though it is not by an action of the Son.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 19, 2010, 09:49:03 PM
Note the bolded section:
Quote
proceeds from their essence
. Wrong, according to Orthodox doctrine. God the Father is the sole source of both the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Yes, but if this procession results in the Holy Spirit coming into existence with the essence of the Father as His own essence, doesn't the procession from the Father require some involvement of His essence?
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 19, 2010, 09:52:45 PM
Quote
"Three and One, One and Three: for we profess one essence of the Holy Trinity, in three hypostases of perfect persons. For the person of the Father is not the person of the Son, nor is the person of the Son, or that of the Holy Spirit, the person of the Father, albeit it is, indeed, out of the one very essence of the Father that the Son and the Holy Spirit exist. For the Only-begotten Son, who before all ages exists both from the Father and with the Father, is God with God, and is, the very same, man with men, without any falling away from his divinity, even if he is found to have taken on manhood, nor is he cast down from his first nativity, even if, by his fleshly nativity from a virgin, he has appeared as one born in the flesh. Rather, even while he was in the Virgin’s womb, the heavens and the earth and the whole creation had not been emptied of him.

No problem with this, this is perfectly in keeping with Orthodox doctrine.

To God the Father, the Unbegotten, and to the Only-begotten Son, begotten from him [the Unbegotten], and to the Holy Spirit
Quote
who proceeds from their essence
, to the Three in One substance, be all glory, now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen."

Note the bolded section:
Quote
proceeds from their essence
. Wrong, according to Orthodox doctrine. God the Father is the sole source of both the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Quote
In order for that to have any more impact that a wink and a nod, you'd have to engage the text and show me how it is contrary to patristic teaching.

Isn't the Nicean-Constantinopolitan Creed sufficiently authoritative for you?


Have you read Jarislav Pelikan's book on the Creeds?  Quite a good read.

The Catholic Church teaches that the Father is the Source of the Holy Spirit who spirates eternally from the Father and the Son as from one essential principle, since the Father and the Son are one in essence. 

The second part of that statement does not negate the Father as Source in any way.  It would be heresy to do so.

Apparently this Syrian Bishop understood that somewhat in advance of the filioque.

The fact that the Father must emit the Holy Spirit from the essence that is common to Him and the Son is a given, however going so far as to say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son is erroneous because it gives Him some role deserving of individual distinction in the procession of the Spirit, a role that only the Father should have.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 19, 2010, 09:57:45 PM
Quote
To God the Father, the Unbegotten, and to the Only-begotten Son, begotten from him, and to the Holy Spirit who proceeds from their essence, to the Three in One substance, be all glory, now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.

The Father, not the Son, is the source of the Holy Spirit.


Saying that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the essence of the Father (which the Son shares with Him) does not necessitate the Son having a direct role in the Spirit's procession. This statement is compatible with the idea that the Father is the one who issues forth the Spirit from His essence, an essence which He shares with the Son, though it is not by an action of the Son.

This is exactly right!!   It is not necessarily by an action of the Son, except in the economy of time!

That is the Catholic teaching.  That is what bekkos sees.

M.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 19, 2010, 09:59:15 PM
Quote
"Three and One, One and Three: for we profess one essence of the Holy Trinity, in three hypostases of perfect persons. For the person of the Father is not the person of the Son, nor is the person of the Son, or that of the Holy Spirit, the person of the Father, albeit it is, indeed, out of the one very essence of the Father that the Son and the Holy Spirit exist. For the Only-begotten Son, who before all ages exists both from the Father and with the Father, is God with God, and is, the very same, man with men, without any falling away from his divinity, even if he is found to have taken on manhood, nor is he cast down from his first nativity, even if, by his fleshly nativity from a virgin, he has appeared as one born in the flesh. Rather, even while he was in the Virgin’s womb, the heavens and the earth and the whole creation had not been emptied of him.

No problem with this, this is perfectly in keeping with Orthodox doctrine.

To God the Father, the Unbegotten, and to the Only-begotten Son, begotten from him [the Unbegotten], and to the Holy Spirit
Quote
who proceeds from their essence
, to the Three in One substance, be all glory, now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen."

Note the bolded section:
Quote
proceeds from their essence
. Wrong, according to Orthodox doctrine. God the Father is the sole source of both the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Quote
In order for that to have any more impact that a wink and a nod, you'd have to engage the text and show me how it is contrary to patristic teaching.

Isn't the Nicean-Constantinopolitan Creed sufficiently authoritative for you?


Have you read Jarislav Pelikan's book on the Creeds?  Quite a good read.

The Catholic Church teaches that the Father is the Source of the Holy Spirit who spirates eternally from the Father and the Son as from one essential principle, since the Father and the Son are one in essence. 

The second part of that statement does not negate the Father as Source in any way.  It would be heresy to do so.

Apparently this Syrian Bishop understood that somewhat in advance of the filioque.

The fact that the Father must emit the Holy Spirit from the essence that is common to Him and the Son is a given, however going so far as to say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son is erroneous because it gives Him some role deserving of individual distinction in the procession of the Spirit, a role that only the Father should have.

But that is not what the Catholic teaching is saying.  You had it and now moved away from it.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 19, 2010, 10:05:04 PM
Here are the most relevant quotes from the sermon:

"but he is begotten of the essence* of the Unbegotten"

"and one Spirit of Truth who proceeds from the Father"

"albeit it is, indeed, out of the one very essence of the Father that the Son and the Holy Spirit exist"

"and to the Holy Spirit who proceeds† from their essence"

Now, it is certainly the case that the last quote is different from the other three in referring to "their essence" rather than to the essence of the Father. However, this is simply a logical conclusion of the former phrasing. The essence of the Father must be the common essence of the Trinity. What this sermon never does is ascribe the procession to the Son Himself, as the filioque most certainly does. If we are to imagine that the Father is the one who takes the eternal action to send forth the Holy Spirit from His essence and in His essence, if the Son has no direct role in this action, i.e. He is not the one that does the action, then it is perfectly understandable how we could say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (with respect to who does the issuing) but also from the common essence of the Trinity (with respect to from what the Holy Spirit issues from). However, what it would not be appropriate to say is that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, as that is to appear to indicate that the Son actually is involved in the action with the Father of sending forth the Spirit.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 19, 2010, 10:06:58 PM
Quote
To God the Father, the Unbegotten, and to the Only-begotten Son, begotten from him, and to the Holy Spirit who proceeds from their essence, to the Three in One substance, be all glory, now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.

The Father, not the Son, is the source of the Holy Spirit.


Saying that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the essence of the Father (which the Son shares with Him) does not necessitate the Son having a direct role in the Spirit's procession. This statement is compatible with the idea that the Father is the one who issues forth the Spirit from His essence, an essence which He shares with the Son, though it is not by an action of the Son.

This is exactly right!!   It is not necessarily by an action of the Son, except in the economy of time!

That is the Catholic teaching.  That is what bekkos sees.

M.

I doubt that is the case.

If it is true, it would be appropriate to say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the essence of the Trinity by the action of the Father, but it would not be appropriate to say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son Himself, where such an individual designation had only before been applied to who initiates the procession.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 19, 2010, 10:08:09 PM
Quote
"Three and One, One and Three: for we profess one essence of the Holy Trinity, in three hypostases of perfect persons. For the person of the Father is not the person of the Son, nor is the person of the Son, or that of the Holy Spirit, the person of the Father, albeit it is, indeed, out of the one very essence of the Father that the Son and the Holy Spirit exist. For the Only-begotten Son, who before all ages exists both from the Father and with the Father, is God with God, and is, the very same, man with men, without any falling away from his divinity, even if he is found to have taken on manhood, nor is he cast down from his first nativity, even if, by his fleshly nativity from a virgin, he has appeared as one born in the flesh. Rather, even while he was in the Virgin’s womb, the heavens and the earth and the whole creation had not been emptied of him.

No problem with this, this is perfectly in keeping with Orthodox doctrine.

To God the Father, the Unbegotten, and to the Only-begotten Son, begotten from him [the Unbegotten], and to the Holy Spirit
Quote
who proceeds from their essence
, to the Three in One substance, be all glory, now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen."

Note the bolded section:
Quote
proceeds from their essence
. Wrong, according to Orthodox doctrine. God the Father is the sole source of both the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Quote
In order for that to have any more impact that a wink and a nod, you'd have to engage the text and show me how it is contrary to patristic teaching.

Isn't the Nicean-Constantinopolitan Creed sufficiently authoritative for you?


Have you read Jarislav Pelikan's book on the Creeds?  Quite a good read.

The Catholic Church teaches that the Father is the Source of the Holy Spirit who spirates eternally from the Father and the Son as from one essential principle, since the Father and the Son are one in essence.  

The second part of that statement does not negate the Father as Source in any way.  It would be heresy to do so.

Apparently this Syrian Bishop understood that somewhat in advance of the filioque.

The fact that the Father must emit the Holy Spirit from the essence that is common to Him and the Son is a given, however going so far as to say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son is erroneous because it gives Him some role deserving of individual distinction in the procession of the Spirit, a role that only the Father should have.

But that is not what the Catholic teaching is saying.  You had it and now moved away from it.

We simply do not agree on what the actual Western tradition on the matter is.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 19, 2010, 10:09:24 PM
Quote
To God the Father, the Unbegotten, and to the Only-begotten Son, begotten from him, and to the Holy Spirit who proceeds from their essence, to the Three in One substance, be all glory, now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.

The Father, not the Son, is the source of the Holy Spirit.


Saying that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the essence of the Father (which the Son shares with Him) does not necessitate the Son having a direct role in the Spirit's procession. This statement is compatible with the idea that the Father is the one who issues forth the Spirit from His essence, an essence which He shares with the Son, though it is not by an action of the Son.

This is exactly right!!   It is not necessarily by an action of the Son, except in the economy of time!

That is the Catholic teaching.  That is what bekkos sees.

M.

I doubt that is the case.

If it is true, it would be appropriate to say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the essence of the Trinity by the action of the Father, but it would not be appropriate to say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son Himself, where such an individual designation had only before been applied to who initiates the procession.

Filioque is added to the Creed and the meaning of it is explained as a teaching.  Not every element of the Creed is fully explicated in the language of the Creed itself.  That should not be required for the meaning to have credibility:   pardon the pun.

M.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 19, 2010, 10:10:33 PM
Quote
"Three and One, One and Three: for we profess one essence of the Holy Trinity, in three hypostases of perfect persons. For the person of the Father is not the person of the Son, nor is the person of the Son, or that of the Holy Spirit, the person of the Father, albeit it is, indeed, out of the one very essence of the Father that the Son and the Holy Spirit exist. For the Only-begotten Son, who before all ages exists both from the Father and with the Father, is God with God, and is, the very same, man with men, without any falling away from his divinity, even if he is found to have taken on manhood, nor is he cast down from his first nativity, even if, by his fleshly nativity from a virgin, he has appeared as one born in the flesh. Rather, even while he was in the Virgin’s womb, the heavens and the earth and the whole creation had not been emptied of him.

No problem with this, this is perfectly in keeping with Orthodox doctrine.

To God the Father, the Unbegotten, and to the Only-begotten Son, begotten from him [the Unbegotten], and to the Holy Spirit
Quote
who proceeds from their essence
, to the Three in One substance, be all glory, now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen."

Note the bolded section:
Quote
proceeds from their essence
. Wrong, according to Orthodox doctrine. God the Father is the sole source of both the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Quote
In order for that to have any more impact that a wink and a nod, you'd have to engage the text and show me how it is contrary to patristic teaching.

Isn't the Nicean-Constantinopolitan Creed sufficiently authoritative for you?


Have you read Jarislav Pelikan's book on the Creeds?  Quite a good read.

The Catholic Church teaches that the Father is the Source of the Holy Spirit who spirates eternally from the Father and the Son as from one essential principle, since the Father and the Son are one in essence.  

The second part of that statement does not negate the Father as Source in any way.  It would be heresy to do so.

Apparently this Syrian Bishop understood that somewhat in advance of the filioque.

The fact that the Father must emit the Holy Spirit from the essence that is common to Him and the Son is a given, however going so far as to say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son is erroneous because it gives Him some role deserving of individual distinction in the procession of the Spirit, a role that only the Father should have.

But that is not what the Catholic teaching is saying.  You had it and now moved away from it.

We simply do not agree on what the actual Western tradition on the matter is.

That's all right.  I won't argue it then.  Perhaps one day...

Mary
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 19, 2010, 10:19:16 PM
Quote
To God the Father, the Unbegotten, and to the Only-begotten Son, begotten from him, and to the Holy Spirit who proceeds from their essence, to the Three in One substance, be all glory, now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.

The Father, not the Son, is the source of the Holy Spirit.


Saying that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the essence of the Father (which the Son shares with Him) does not necessitate the Son having a direct role in the Spirit's procession. This statement is compatible with the idea that the Father is the one who issues forth the Spirit from His essence, an essence which He shares with the Son, though it is not by an action of the Son.

This is exactly right!!   It is not necessarily by an action of the Son, except in the economy of time!

That is the Catholic teaching.  That is what bekkos sees.

M.

I doubt that is the case.

If it is true, it would be appropriate to say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the essence of the Trinity by the action of the Father, but it would not be appropriate to say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son Himself, where such an individual designation had only before been applied to who initiates the procession.

Filioque is added to the Creed and the meaning of it is explained as a teaching.  Not every element of the Creed is fully explicated in the language of the Creed itself.  That should not be required for the meaning to have credibility:   pardon the pun.

M.

The original language of the Creed and the Bible when they say "the Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Father" both use a Greek word that very much indicates and ontological generation by the Father. To add the Son into the matter would logically thus incorporate the Son into the action of the procession (something which you say you don't even believe). I think the most logical conclusion is that you are rooted in the actual traditional teaching of the monarchy of the Father and are trying to conform the Western teaching to that; but I don't think that's possible because I do not think they mean the same thing by the filioque as you.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 19, 2010, 10:42:57 PM
Quote
To God the Father, the Unbegotten, and to the Only-begotten Son, begotten from him, and to the Holy Spirit who proceeds from their essence, to the Three in One substance, be all glory, now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.

The Father, not the Son, is the source of the Holy Spirit.


Saying that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the essence of the Father (which the Son shares with Him) does not necessitate the Son having a direct role in the Spirit's procession. This statement is compatible with the idea that the Father is the one who issues forth the Spirit from His essence, an essence which He shares with the Son, though it is not by an action of the Son.

This is exactly right!!   It is not necessarily by an action of the Son, except in the economy of time!

That is the Catholic teaching.  That is what bekkos sees.

M.

I doubt that is the case.

If it is true, it would be appropriate to say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the essence of the Trinity by the action of the Father, but it would not be appropriate to say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son Himself, where such an individual designation had only before been applied to who initiates the procession.

Filioque is added to the Creed and the meaning of it is explained as a teaching.  Not every element of the Creed is fully explicated in the language of the Creed itself.  That should not be required for the meaning to have credibility:   pardon the pun.

M.

The original language of the Creed and the Bible when they say "the Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Father" both use a Greek word that very much indicates and ontological generation by the Father. To add the Son into the matter would logically thus incorporate the Son into the action of the procession (something which you say you don't even believe). I think the most logical conclusion is that you are rooted in the actual traditional teaching of the monarchy of the Father and are trying to conform the Western teaching to that; but I don't think that's possible because I do not think they mean the same thing by the filioque as you.

Well the Latin Church used a different word in the Creed in Latin and that didn't seem to bother for centuries, and I expect people knew it was different then as they do now.

At any rate, it was good to find that bekkos did not engage the same old polemics.  It is encouraging.

Mary
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Fr. George on May 19, 2010, 10:54:20 PM
But that is not what the Catholic teaching is saying.  You had it and now moved away from it.

I find it hard to believe that you can assert this with a straight face, considering Pope Leo III's forbidding the addition of the filioque to the Creed (and I would like to see what the source is of the Oxford Dictionary of Christian Worship's assertion that he held to the doctrine while rejecting the addition).

What think ye of the following: http://aggreen.net/filioque/filioque.html
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: LBK on May 19, 2010, 11:14:44 PM
Quote
But that is not what the Catholic teaching is saying.  You had it and now moved away from it.

Said by someone who doggedly asserts that the IC was also a teaching of the Orthodox Church in the first 1500 years of its life.  ::) Why are we not surprised?
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 19, 2010, 11:20:44 PM
But that is not what the Catholic teaching is saying.  You had it and now moved away from it.

I find it hard to believe that you can assert this with a straight face, considering Pope Leo III's forbidding the addition of the filioque to the Creed (and I would like to see what the source is of the Oxford Dictionary of Christian Worship's assertion that he held to the doctrine while rejecting the addition).

What think ye of the following: http://aggreen.net/filioque/filioque.html

Thomas Ross's discussion of the filioque has never made sense to me.  He clearly does not grasp Catholic teaching and so it is impossible to offer a genuine commentary on his essay based upon Catholic teaching concerning the filioque.  

It would be much like answering the question "When did you stop beating your wife"?  You might say that you never did beat your wife but then the response would be "That is NOT what I asked you!!"

At any rate Dr. Gilbert does apparently grasp Catholic teaching and the history of the teaching and he definitely is Orthodox, so that is a good thing to witness in this world of common misunderstandings.

M.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 19, 2010, 11:22:55 PM
Quote
But that is not what the Catholic teaching is saying.  You had it and now moved away from it.

Said by someone who doggedly asserts that the IC was also a teaching of the Orthodox Church in the first 1500 years of its life.  ::) Why are we not surprised?

Dear LBK,

I very carefully explained to you what I assert concerning the IC and Orthodox objections and this is not part of it.  Now I have said it several times in the last few days so I will publicly protest this continuation of a false attribution to my thoughts and clearly expressed points.

This is not honest dialogue by any means.

I'd thank you to stop doing this.

Mary
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: LBK on May 20, 2010, 12:11:18 AM
Quote
But that is not what the Catholic teaching is saying.  You had it and now moved away from it.

Said by someone who doggedly asserts that the IC was also a teaching of the Orthodox Church in the first 1500 years of its life.  ::) Why are we not surprised?

Dear LBK,

I very carefully explained to you what I assert concerning the IC and Orthodox objections and this is not part of it.  Now I have said it several times in the last few days so I will publicly protest this continuation of a false attribution to my thoughts and clearly expressed points.

This is not honest dialogue by any means.

I'd thank you to stop doing this.

Mary

Last time I checked, you were quite the proponent of Fr Kucharek's view:

Quote
How did Orthodoxy come to reject the Immaculate Conception of the Theotokos? Fr. Kucharek concludes:

The Greek Orthodox Church's belief in the immaculate conception continued unanimously until the fifteenth century, then many Greek theologians began to adopt the idea that Mary had been made immaculate at the moment of the Annunciation.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,23379.msg430645.html#msg430645

On the matter of the Annunciation:

The hymnographers for the Orthodox hymnody of this feast include Sts John of Damascus, Andrew of Crete, and Theophanes the Branded. All were contemporaries of each other, so the hymnography dates to no later than the early 800s. St Theodore, who wrote the Matins festal canon, died c.835. Again, Fr Kucharek is spectacularly wrong in his estimations.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Fr. George on May 20, 2010, 07:36:08 AM
Thomas Ross's discussion of the filioque has never made sense to me.  He clearly does not grasp Catholic teaching and so it is impossible to offer a genuine commentary on his essay based upon Catholic teaching concerning the filioque. 

How about commentary on his point (about 3/4 down the page) viz-a-viz the historical language of eternal double-procession in RC dogmatic statements?

At any rate Dr. Gilbert does apparently grasp Catholic teaching and the history of the teaching and he definitely is Orthodox, so that is a good thing to witness in this world of common misunderstandings.

I don't know how seriously I can take the conclusions of a man who makes such blatantly false statements as, "It was on account of people like him, who preferred the Turban to the Tiara, that the Greek nation was shortly afterwards submerged in darkness and slavery for four hundred years."  When examining the man's writings, an unsupportable and patently untrue statement like that is akin to finding self-inflicted gangrene in a medical examination: there is a problem, and it is going to effect everything around it.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 20, 2010, 07:59:29 AM
Here's proof that there is at least one Orthodox person who has the capacity to grasp what the filioque means in Catholic teaching:


http://bekkos.wordpress.com/2010/04/07/notes-on-a-text-by-severian-of-gabala/

There goes all hope of union!  I mean, if only one American convert is able to grasp the Catholic position on the filioque, all those international theological meetings are a bit of a waste of time and money.   :laugh:
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 20, 2010, 08:11:28 AM
Here's proof that there is at least one Orthodox person who has the capacity to grasp what the filioque means in Catholic teaching:


http://bekkos.wordpress.com/2010/04/07/notes-on-a-text-by-severian-of-gabala/


Here is proof that at least one Eastern Catholic has the capacity to grasp what the filioque means in Catholic teaching and to penetrate and explain the error of the teaching

http://sites.google.com/site/thetaboriclight/filioque
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 20, 2010, 09:45:58 AM
Thomas Ross's discussion of the filioque has never made sense to me.  He clearly does not grasp Catholic teaching and so it is impossible to offer a genuine commentary on his essay based upon Catholic teaching concerning the filioque. 

How about commentary on his point (about 3/4 down the page) viz-a-viz the historical language of eternal double-procession in RC dogmatic statements?

At any rate Dr. Gilbert does apparently grasp Catholic teaching and the history of the teaching and he definitely is Orthodox, so that is a good thing to witness in this world of common misunderstandings.

I don't know how seriously I can take the conclusions of a man who makes such blatantly false statements as, "It was on account of people like him, who preferred the Turban to the Tiara, that the Greek nation was shortly afterwards submerged in darkness and slavery for four hundred years."  When examining the man's writings, an unsupportable and patently untrue statement like that is akin to finding self-inflicted gangrene in a medical examination: there is a problem, and it is going to effect everything around it.

Thomas Ross deals in literal black and white and does not account for meaning, much the same way Father Ambrose insists on it, when speaking of original sin. 

So you see as long as you are not willing to accept Catholics when they explain meaning then you control the terms of the discussion and there's no dialogue.  You simply rear up and inform us of what we have taught for 2000 years...or not.  It's a nice position to be in.  Ask any of the British colonies who wrote their early histories and how the indigenes fared in the telling....

Also Dr. Gilbert is an historian and I expect he'd not make those kinds of statements had he not had some experience with texts to have allowed him to say what he said.  He is certainly not anti-Orthodox.   But he does not back off an historical truth if he finds one simply because it is inconvenient.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 20, 2010, 09:57:51 AM
Here's proof that there is at least one Orthodox person who has the capacity to grasp what the filioque means in Catholic teaching:


http://bekkos.wordpress.com/2010/04/07/notes-on-a-text-by-severian-of-gabala/

There goes all hope of union!  I mean, if only one American convert is able to grasp the Catholic position on the filioque, all those international theological meetings are a bit of a waste of time and money.   :laugh:

Makes one curious to know how these decks are stacked.

M.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 20, 2010, 10:02:41 AM
Here's proof that there is at least one Orthodox person who has the capacity to grasp what the filioque means in Catholic teaching:


http://bekkos.wordpress.com/2010/04/07/notes-on-a-text-by-severian-of-gabala/


Here is proof that at least one Eastern Catholic has the capacity to grasp what the filioque means in Catholic teaching and to penetrate and explain the error of the teaching

http://sites.google.com/site/thetaboriclight/filioque


Tod Kaster's has all kinds of baggage and does not bring the cool light of scholarship to bear on much of anything at all.  He plays on people's ignorance of certain issues and whines when he is caught out.  But his daddy is dead and he struggles to find his way in a pretty rough world...as much as you can call universities rough.  My heart goes out to the young man.

If you can find serious proof that Dr. Gilbert is as hot-headed as that poor kiddo taking care of his aging mama all by himself, then you let me know.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: LizaSymonenko on May 20, 2010, 10:13:52 AM

Okay....just a silly question from a non-intellectual.

How can one explain the following:

        "And in one Lord Jesus Christ.....who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man;"

...if in fact they claim that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, and the Son, how can item #3 which proceeds from item #2, actually be an integral part of incarnating item #2?

Does not that statement alone make it clear that both God the Son and God the Holy Spirit must proceed from God the Father?

I'm just saying....



Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 20, 2010, 10:15:42 AM
Here's proof that there is at least one Orthodox person who has the capacity to grasp what the filioque means in Catholic teaching:


http://bekkos.wordpress.com/2010/04/07/notes-on-a-text-by-severian-of-gabala/


Here is proof that at least one Eastern Catholic has the capacity to grasp what the filioque means in Catholic teaching and to penetrate and explain the error of the teaching

http://sites.google.com/site/thetaboriclight/filioque


Tod Kaster's has all kinds of baggage and does not bring the cool light of scholarship to bear on much of anything at all.

And Gilbert has some special insight?  The  mere fact that her has called his website "bekkos" is enough.  Read up on Patriarch Bekkos.  How many monks on the Holy Mountain were killed and burnt alive?  His name in universally despised by the Orthodox.  Apart of course from Gilbert who has so much more insight than the Church and its recorded history which has got it all wrong. 

Quote
If you can find serious proof that Dr. Gilbert is as hot-headed as that poor kiddo taking care of his aging mama all by himself, then you let me know.

What inferences are you trying to make?

Gilbert's site says that he lives at home, he is 49 years old, with his daddy.   

Don't you live all alone yourself and take care of your own aging mama? 

Phew, but you're quick to hand out ad hominems and attack those who disagree with you.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: lubeltri on May 20, 2010, 10:18:40 AM
I just wanted to voice a slight objection to how the Roman Catholics who seem to hold the Mother of God in such high esteem....refer to her on such a familiar basis as simply "Mary".  I've heard this a number of times and it offends me.

Just a couple of weeks ago I was at a function where a Byzantine Catholic priest stood up for the closing prayer and then gave a few words.  His constant referral to "Maria" just irritated me.  Maria, who?  Fraulein Maria?

I must take exception to this. I don't think there is any disrespect in referring to the Blessed Mother as "Mary." It is a holy name, made sacred by the bearer of it.

We also call her by many other names. Some examples, to show that we Catholics hold her in the highest esteem possible for a creature of God:

the Blessed Virgin

the Blessed Mother

the Mother of God

Immaculate Mary

Saint Mary

Holy Mary

Our Lady

the Madonna

Queen of Heaven

Queen of Peace

Star of the Sea

Throne of Wisdom

Cause of Our Joy

Mother of Mercy

Ark of the Covenant

Mediatrix of All Graces

Tower of Ivory

Empress of the World

Gate of Heaven

Help of Christians

the Immaculate Heart

House of Gold

Mother of the World

Mirror of Justice

Joy of the Just

Holy Virgin of Virgins

Morning Star

Mother Inviolate

Mystical Rose

the New Eve

Tabernacle of the Lord

Temple of the Most Holy Trinity

Queen of Angels

Queen of the Apostles

Refuge of Sinners

Seat of Wisdom

Tower of David

Spouse of the Holy Spirit

Holy Virgin of Virgins

Our Lady of Sorrows

Our Lady of Grace

Our Lady of the Rosary

Our Lady of Good Health

Our Lady of Good Success

Our Lady of Good Counsel

Our Lady of the Miraculous Medal

the Immaculate Conception

Our Lady of Mount Carmel
Our Lady of Guadalupe
Our Lady of Kazan
Our Lady of Lourdes
Our Lady of Fatima
Our Lady of America
Our Lady of La Salette
Our Lady of Akita
Our Lady of Walsingham
Our Lady of the Snows
Our Lady of Loreto
Our Lady of Lebanon
Our Lady of Knock
Our Lady of the Pillar
(many others of this kind)

Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 20, 2010, 10:24:25 AM
Here's proof that there is at least one Orthodox person who has the capacity to grasp what the filioque means in Catholic teaching:


http://bekkos.wordpress.com/2010/04/07/notes-on-a-text-by-severian-of-gabala/


Here is proof that at least one Eastern Catholic has the capacity to grasp what the filioque means in Catholic teaching and to penetrate and explain the error of the teaching

http://sites.google.com/site/thetaboriclight/filioque


Tod Kaster's has all kinds of baggage and does not bring the cool light of scholarship to bear on much of anything at all.

And Gilbert has some special insight?  The  mere fact that her has called his website "bekkos" is enough.  Read up on Patriarch Bekkos.  How many monks on the Holy Mountain were killed and burnt alive?  His name in universally despised by the Orthodox.  Apart of course from Gilbert who has so much more insight than the Church and its recorded history which has got it all wrong. 

Quote
If you can find serious proof that Dr. Gilbert is as hot-headed as that poor kiddo taking care of his aging mama all by himself, then you let me know.

What inferences are you trying to make?

Gilbert's site says that he lives at home, he is 49 years old, with his daddy.   

Don't you live all alone yourself and take care of your own aging mama? 

Phew, but you're quick to hand out ad hominems and attack those who disagree with you.

You know Todd as well as I do.  He's young and he's immature and he is not particularly capable in his chosen field.  Over and over again he's been picked apart by older more mature scholars, right out in the Internet open where anyone can watch.

Yes.  Peter takes care of his father, and I take care of my mother and there's a vast difference in capabilities among us.  Peter is the most intellectually capable of all three of us, if for no other reason that he can read the originals in the original languages and does not carry the kind of baggage Todd carries nor does he care if his peers approve his work or not.  His intellectual honesty comes first.  Todd wants desperately to be unique and to belong simultaneously. 

M.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: LizaSymonenko on May 20, 2010, 10:26:21 AM
I just wanted to voice a slight objection to how the Roman Catholics who seem to hold the Mother of God in such high esteem....refer to her on such a familiar basis as simply "Mary".  I've heard this a number of times and it offends me.

Just a couple of weeks ago I was at a function where a Byzantine Catholic priest stood up for the closing prayer and then gave a few words.  His constant referral to "Maria" just irritated me.  Maria, who?  Fraulein Maria?

I must take exception to this. I don't think there is any disrespect in referring to the Blessed Mother as "Mary." It is a holy name, made sacred by the bearer of it.


Yes...well....I've also met too many Roman Catholics named "Jesus"...which I also find disrespectful.

Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Schultz on May 20, 2010, 10:29:36 AM
Do you find people named Joshua disrespectful?

Etymologically speaking, it's the same name. 
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 20, 2010, 10:30:19 AM
Life

John Bekkos was born in Nicaea among the exiles from Constantinople during the period of Latin occupation of that city, and died in prison in the fortress of St. Gregory near the entrance to the Gulf of Nicomedia.[1] Our knowledge of Bekkos’s life is derived from his own writings, from writings of Byzantine historians such as George Pachymeres[2] and Nicephorus Gregoras, from writings against him by Gregory of Cyprus and others, and from defences of him by supporters of ecclesiastical union like Constantine Meliteniotes and George Metochites. Bekkos’s history is closely bound up with the fortunes of the Union of the Churches declared at the Second Council of Lyon (1274), a union promoted by Pope Gregory X in the West and Emperor Michael VIII Palaeologus in the East. The union policy of Michael VIII was largely politically motivated,[3] and Bekkos at first opposed it; but, after Michael VIII had had him imprisoned in the Tower of Anemas for speaking out against it, Bekkos changed his mind (1273); a reading of such Greek church fathers as St. Basil the Great, St. Cyril of Alexandria and St. Epiphanius convinced Bekkos that theological differences between the Greek and Latin Churches had been exaggerated.[4] After Patriarch Joseph I Galesiotes abdicated early in 1275 due to his opposition to the Council of Lyon, Bekkos was elected to replace him. His relationship with the emperor was sometimes stormy; although Michael VIII depended on Bekkos for maintaining his empire’s peace with the West, he was annoyed by Bekkos’s repeated intercessions on behalf of the poor. Michael was a crafty man, and knew how to make the Patriarch’s life miserable by sundry small humiliations, until, in March, 1279, Bekkos quit in disgust, and had to be coaxed back to undertake the job again (August 6, 1279). The final years of Michael VIII’s reign were entirely taken up with defending his empire against the threat posed by the Western king Charles of Anjou, and, in his anxiety to meet this threat, Michael enforced a "reign of terror" against opponents of union; but there is no convincing evidence that John Bekkos ever actively took part in or supported acts of violent persecution.[5]

Although earlier in his patriarchate Bekkos had promised not to reply to the pamphlets that were being circulated against the ecclesiastical union, by the latter years of Michael's reign he had changed his mind about this, and began "holding numerous synods, calling all and sundry, and dug up books and published many others,"[6] defending the union on theological grounds, arguing the compatibility of the Latin doctrine with Greek patristic tradition. The effect of this was further to alienate most of the Greek clergy against him; it was this publishing activity that later served as the explicit grounds for the charges that were laid against him.[7]

The ecclesial union engineered by Michael VIII was never popular in Byzantium, and, after his death (December 11, 1282), his son and successor, Andronicus II, repudiated it. On the day after Christmas, 1282, John Bekkos withdrew to a monastery; the former patriarch, Joseph I, was brought into the city on a stretcher, and a series of councils and public meetings ensued, led by a group of anti-unionist monks. Bekkos, in fear of violent death at the hands of a mob, was induced to sign a formal renunciation of his unionist opinions and of his priesthood (January, 1283), a renunciation which he afterwards disowned as extorted under duress, but which was used against him. [8] After this, Bekkos spent some years under house arrest at a large monastery in Prusa in Asia Minor. From there, he began a literary campaign to exonerate himself, and succeeded in having a council called to reexamine his case; it took place at the imperial palace of Blachernae in Constantinople, meeting in several sessions from February to August in the year 1285. Although the Council of Blachernae reaffirmed Bekkos’s earlier condemnation, in the council’s aftermath Bekkos, by a series of writings, succeeded in bringing its dogmatic statement against him (the Tomus of 1285) into such disrepute that its principal author, the Patriarch Gregory II, resigned (1289). Bekkos saw this as vindicating his position. He spent the remaining years of his life in prison in the fortress of St. Gregory, revising his writings, maintaining friendly relations with the Emperor and prominent Byzantine churchmen, but unwilling to give up his unionist opinions; he died in 1297.[9]
[edit] Thought

The basis of John Bekkos’s quarrel with his contemporaries was a disagreement with them over the implications of a traditional patristic formula, that states that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son (in Greek, διὰ τοῦ Υἱοῦ). Already in the ninth century, this expression was being pushed in two different directions: Latin writers saw it as implying the Augustinian doctrine that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (Filioque); Greek writers, especially from the time of Patriarch Photios onward, saw it as consistent with the view that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone. Bekkos originally agreed with the Photian view, but his reading of the Greek fathers, and of medieval Greek writers like Nicephorus Blemmydes and Nicetas of Maroneia, caused him to change his mind. Much of John XI Bekkos’s debate with Gregory II was a debate over the meaning of texts from St. Cyril and other fathers, whose wording (the Spirit “exists from the Son”; the Spirit “fountains forth eternally” from the Son, etc.) Bekkos saw as consistent with the Latin doctrine, while Gregory of Cyprus interpreted such texts as necessarily referring to an eternal manifestation of the Holy Spirit through or from the Son. This thirteenth-century debate has considerable relevance for current-day ecumenical discussions between the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 20, 2010, 10:37:58 AM
I just wanted to voice a slight objection to how the Roman Catholics who seem to hold the Mother of God in such high esteem....refer to her on such a familiar basis as simply "Mary".  I've heard this a number of times and it offends me.

Just a couple of weeks ago I was at a function where a Byzantine Catholic priest stood up for the closing prayer and then gave a few words.  His constant referral to "Maria" just irritated me.  Maria, who?  Fraulein Maria?

I must take exception to this. I don't think there is any disrespect in referring to the Blessed Mother as "Mary." It is a holy name, made sacred by the bearer of it.


You must have youth on your side.   :laugh: Those of us brought up in Catholics schools before Vatican II will remember the rap on the hand with a wooden ruler or a leather strap if we used "Jesus" or "Mary."

I know that it still can make older Catholics flinch to hear the names being thrown around today.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 20, 2010, 10:40:06 AM
I congratulate you, Mary.   Maybe you have written that at an earlier date for another Forum but if you have penned it in a few short minutes, you are a miracle!


Life

John Bekkos was born in Nicaea among the exiles from Constantinople during the period of Latin occupation of that city, and died in prison in the fortress of St. Gregory near the entrance to the Gulf of Nicomedia.[1] Our knowledge of Bekkos’s life is derived from his own writings, from writings of Byzantine historians such as George Pachymeres[2] and Nicephorus Gregoras, from writings against him by Gregory of Cyprus and others, and from defences of him by supporters of ecclesiastical union like Constantine Meliteniotes and George Metochites. Bekkos’s history is closely bound up with the fortunes of the Union of the Churches declared at the Second Council of Lyon (1274), a union promoted by Pope Gregory X in the West and Emperor Michael VIII Palaeologus in the East. The union policy of Michael VIII was largely politically motivated,[3] and Bekkos at first opposed it; but, after Michael VIII had had him imprisoned in the Tower of Anemas for speaking out against it, Bekkos changed his mind (1273); a reading of such Greek church fathers as St. Basil the Great, St. Cyril of Alexandria and St. Epiphanius convinced Bekkos that theological differences between the Greek and Latin Churches had been exaggerated.[4] After Patriarch Joseph I Galesiotes abdicated early in 1275 due to his opposition to the Council of Lyon, Bekkos was elected to replace him. His relationship with the emperor was sometimes stormy; although Michael VIII depended on Bekkos for maintaining his empire’s peace with the West, he was annoyed by Bekkos’s repeated intercessions on behalf of the poor. Michael was a crafty man, and knew how to make the Patriarch’s life miserable by sundry small humiliations, until, in March, 1279, Bekkos quit in disgust, and had to be coaxed back to undertake the job again (August 6, 1279). The final years of Michael VIII’s reign were entirely taken up with defending his empire against the threat posed by the Western king Charles of Anjou, and, in his anxiety to meet this threat, Michael enforced a "reign of terror" against opponents of union; but there is no convincing evidence that John Bekkos ever actively took part in or supported acts of violent persecution.[5]

Although earlier in his patriarchate Bekkos had promised not to reply to the pamphlets that were being circulated against the ecclesiastical union, by the latter years of Michael's reign he had changed his mind about this, and began "holding numerous synods, calling all and sundry, and dug up books and published many others,"[6] defending the union on theological grounds, arguing the compatibility of the Latin doctrine with Greek patristic tradition. The effect of this was further to alienate most of the Greek clergy against him; it was this publishing activity that later served as the explicit grounds for the charges that were laid against him.[7]

The ecclesial union engineered by Michael VIII was never popular in Byzantium, and, after his death (December 11, 1282), his son and successor, Andronicus II, repudiated it. On the day after Christmas, 1282, John Bekkos withdrew to a monastery; the former patriarch, Joseph I, was brought into the city on a stretcher, and a series of councils and public meetings ensued, led by a group of anti-unionist monks. Bekkos, in fear of violent death at the hands of a mob, was induced to sign a formal renunciation of his unionist opinions and of his priesthood (January, 1283), a renunciation which he afterwards disowned as extorted under duress, but which was used against him. [8] After this, Bekkos spent some years under house arrest at a large monastery in Prusa in Asia Minor. From there, he began a literary campaign to exonerate himself, and succeeded in having a council called to reexamine his case; it took place at the imperial palace of Blachernae in Constantinople, meeting in several sessions from February to August in the year 1285. Although the Council of Blachernae reaffirmed Bekkos’s earlier condemnation, in the council’s aftermath Bekkos, by a series of writings, succeeded in bringing its dogmatic statement against him (the Tomus of 1285) into such disrepute that its principal author, the Patriarch Gregory II, resigned (1289). Bekkos saw this as vindicating his position. He spent the remaining years of his life in prison in the fortress of St. Gregory, revising his writings, maintaining friendly relations with the Emperor and prominent Byzantine churchmen, but unwilling to give up his unionist opinions; he died in 1297.[9]
[edit] Thought

The basis of John Bekkos’s quarrel with his contemporaries was a disagreement with them over the implications of a traditional patristic formula, that states that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son (in Greek, διὰ τοῦ Υἱοῦ). Already in the ninth century, this expression was being pushed in two different directions: Latin writers saw it as implying the Augustinian doctrine that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (Filioque); Greek writers, especially from the time of Patriarch Photios onward, saw it as consistent with the view that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone. Bekkos originally agreed with the Photian view, but his reading of the Greek fathers, and of medieval Greek writers like Nicephorus Blemmydes and Nicetas of Maroneia, caused him to change his mind. Much of John XI Bekkos’s debate with Gregory II was a debate over the meaning of texts from St. Cyril and other fathers, whose wording (the Spirit “exists from the Son”; the Spirit “fountains forth eternally” from the Son, etc.) Bekkos saw as consistent with the Latin doctrine, while Gregory of Cyprus interpreted such texts as necessarily referring to an eternal manifestation of the Holy Spirit through or from the Son. This thirteenth-century debate has considerable relevance for current-day ecumenical discussions between the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 20, 2010, 10:41:13 AM
I just wanted to voice a slight objection to how the Roman Catholics who seem to hold the Mother of God in such high esteem....refer to her on such a familiar basis as simply "Mary".  I've heard this a number of times and it offends me.

Just a couple of weeks ago I was at a function where a Byzantine Catholic priest stood up for the closing prayer and then gave a few words.  His constant referral to "Maria" just irritated me.  Maria, who?  Fraulein Maria?

I must take exception to this. I don't think there is any disrespect in referring to the Blessed Mother as "Mary." It is a holy name, made sacred by the bearer of it.


You must have youth on your side.   :laugh: Those of us brought up in Catholics schools before Vatican II will remember the rap on the hand with a wooden ruler or a leather strap if we used "Jesus" or "Mary."

I know that it still can make older Catholics flinch to hear the names being thrown around today.

The Blessed Mother of God, or Most Holy Mother of God could be abbreviated to the Virgin Mother or the Blessed Mother.

But the name of Jesus could be invoked and was encouraged to be prayerfully invoked at any time, or at all times.

In my experience.

Mary
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Mickey on May 20, 2010, 10:42:34 AM
Life

John Bekkos was born in Nicaea among the exiles from Constantinople during the period of Latin occupation of that city....

Gotta love that Wikipedia!  ::)


The Holy martyrs of Vatopedi were the same in number as the twelve holy Apostles.  Along with the abbot Efthymios they were martyred for our holy faith during the savage invasion of the papal-minded Emperor Michael Paleologos and Patriarch Vekkos.  The twelve were hung at Fourkovounion, and Efthymios was plunged with chains into the sea of Kalamidjiou.
(An Athonite Gerontikon)
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 20, 2010, 10:44:50 AM
I congratulate you, Mary.   Maybe you have written that at an earlier date for another Forum but if you have penned it in a few short minutes, you are a miracle!


Life

John Bekkos was born in Nicaea among the exiles from Constantinople during the period of Latin occupation of that city, and died in prison in the fortress of St. Gregory near the entrance to the Gulf of Nicomedia.[1] Our knowledge of Bekkos’s life is derived from his own writings, from writings of Byzantine historians such as George Pachymeres[2] and Nicephorus Gregoras, from writings against him by Gregory of Cyprus and others, and from defences of him by supporters of ecclesiastical union like Constantine Meliteniotes and George Metochites. Bekkos’s history is closely bound up with the fortunes of the Union of the Churches declared at the Second Council of Lyon (1274), a union promoted by Pope Gregory X in the West and Emperor Michael VIII Palaeologus in the East. The union policy of Michael VIII was largely politically motivated,[3] and Bekkos at first opposed it; but, after Michael VIII had had him imprisoned in the Tower of Anemas for speaking out against it, Bekkos changed his mind (1273); a reading of such Greek church fathers as St. Basil the Great, St. Cyril of Alexandria and St. Epiphanius convinced Bekkos that theological differences between the Greek and Latin Churches had been exaggerated.[4] After Patriarch Joseph I Galesiotes abdicated early in 1275 due to his opposition to the Council of Lyon, Bekkos was elected to replace him. His relationship with the emperor was sometimes stormy; although Michael VIII depended on Bekkos for maintaining his empire’s peace with the West, he was annoyed by Bekkos’s repeated intercessions on behalf of the poor. Michael was a crafty man, and knew how to make the Patriarch’s life miserable by sundry small humiliations, until, in March, 1279, Bekkos quit in disgust, and had to be coaxed back to undertake the job again (August 6, 1279). The final years of Michael VIII’s reign were entirely taken up with defending his empire against the threat posed by the Western king Charles of Anjou, and, in his anxiety to meet this threat, Michael enforced a "reign of terror" against opponents of union; but there is no convincing evidence that John Bekkos ever actively took part in or supported acts of violent persecution.[5]

Although earlier in his patriarchate Bekkos had promised not to reply to the pamphlets that were being circulated against the ecclesiastical union, by the latter years of Michael's reign he had changed his mind about this, and began "holding numerous synods, calling all and sundry, and dug up books and published many others,"[6] defending the union on theological grounds, arguing the compatibility of the Latin doctrine with Greek patristic tradition. The effect of this was further to alienate most of the Greek clergy against him; it was this publishing activity that later served as the explicit grounds for the charges that were laid against him.[7]

The ecclesial union engineered by Michael VIII was never popular in Byzantium, and, after his death (December 11, 1282), his son and successor, Andronicus II, repudiated it. On the day after Christmas, 1282, John Bekkos withdrew to a monastery; the former patriarch, Joseph I, was brought into the city on a stretcher, and a series of councils and public meetings ensued, led by a group of anti-unionist monks. Bekkos, in fear of violent death at the hands of a mob, was induced to sign a formal renunciation of his unionist opinions and of his priesthood (January, 1283), a renunciation which he afterwards disowned as extorted under duress, but which was used against him. [8] After this, Bekkos spent some years under house arrest at a large monastery in Prusa in Asia Minor. From there, he began a literary campaign to exonerate himself, and succeeded in having a council called to reexamine his case; it took place at the imperial palace of Blachernae in Constantinople, meeting in several sessions from February to August in the year 1285. Although the Council of Blachernae reaffirmed Bekkos’s earlier condemnation, in the council’s aftermath Bekkos, by a series of writings, succeeded in bringing its dogmatic statement against him (the Tomus of 1285) into such disrepute that its principal author, the Patriarch Gregory II, resigned (1289). Bekkos saw this as vindicating his position. He spent the remaining years of his life in prison in the fortress of St. Gregory, revising his writings, maintaining friendly relations with the Emperor and prominent Byzantine churchmen, but unwilling to give up his unionist opinions; he died in 1297.[9]
[edit] Thought

The basis of John Bekkos’s quarrel with his contemporaries was a disagreement with them over the implications of a traditional patristic formula, that states that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son (in Greek, διὰ τοῦ Υἱοῦ). Already in the ninth century, this expression was being pushed in two different directions: Latin writers saw it as implying the Augustinian doctrine that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (Filioque); Greek writers, especially from the time of Patriarch Photios onward, saw it as consistent with the view that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone. Bekkos originally agreed with the Photian view, but his reading of the Greek fathers, and of medieval Greek writers like Nicephorus Blemmydes and Nicetas of Maroneia, caused him to change his mind. Much of John XI Bekkos’s debate with Gregory II was a debate over the meaning of texts from St. Cyril and other fathers, whose wording (the Spirit “exists from the Son”; the Spirit “fountains forth eternally” from the Son, etc.) Bekkos saw as consistent with the Latin doctrine, while Gregory of Cyprus interpreted such texts as necessarily referring to an eternal manifestation of the Holy Spirit through or from the Son. This thirteenth-century debate has considerable relevance for current-day ecumenical discussions between the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church.

I thought the link was there.  Here it is and I went back and got the notes too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_John_XI_of_Constantinople

Notes

   1. ^ The site of Bekkos's place of captivity is mentioned by George Pachymeres, De Andronico Palaeologo I.35.
   2. ^ Pachymeres, who knew and respected Bekkos though he disagreed with him on matters of theology, provides the basic historical framework for most accounts of Bekkos's life, e.g., the studies by Joseph Gill. See also Manuel Sotomayor, “El Patriarca Becos, según Jorge Paquimeres (Semblanza histórica),” Estudios Eclesiásticos 31 (1957), 327-358.
   3. ^ "He entered on the project of Church union unquestionably from political motives. He achieved it and maintained it for the same ends in spite of opposition. But it seems to me that in the course of his negotiations he became sincerely convinced that it was justified also from the theological point of view." J. Gill, Byzantium and the Papacy, 1198-1400 (1979), p. 180.
   4. ^ See Pachymeres, De Michaele Palaeologo, V.15; Gregoras, Rhomaïke Historia, V.2, §§6-7. Although it has been customary to view Bekkos's change of mind as a "conversion" from Orthodoxy to Catholicism, some recent scholars question this; see esp. Gerhard Richter, “Johannes Bekkos und sein Verhältnis zur römischen Kirche,” Byzantinische Forschungen 15 (1990), 167-217, and A. Riebe, Rom in Gemeinschaft mit Konstantinopel (2005), passim. On the other hand, Vitalien Laurent notes, with regard to a letter written by Bekkos to Pope John XXI in 1277, that "Byzantine literature in fact knows no other text in which the rights of the Roman pontiff are as solemnly and as explicitly acknowledged" (Laurent, Les regestes des actes du patriarcat de Constantinople, vol. I, fasc. IV [Paris 1971], pp. 255 f.), and Peter Gilbert says that his change of mind was genuine: "it cannot be ascribed merely to self-interest or political considerations, and it determined the subsequent course of John Bekkos's career" (Peter Gilbert, Not an Anthologist: John Bekkos as a Reader of the Fathers, in Communio 36 (Summer 2009), p. 269).
   5. ^ On Michael's "reign of terror," see Gill, op. cit., pp. 176 f. Riebe, Rom in Gemeinschaft mit Konstantinopel, p. 113, notes that neither Pachymeres nor Gregoras mention any participation by Bekkos in the emperor's campaign of violence, and that, furthermore, the general picture of Bekkos's character furnished by historians and by his own writings makes such participation unlikely. See also Ioannes Anastasiou, Ὁ θρυλούμενος διωγμὸς τῶν ἁγιορειτῶν ὑπὸ τοῦ Μιχαὴλ Η´ Παλαιολόγου καὶ τοῦ Ἰωάννου Βέκκου, in: Ἀθωνικὴ πολιτεία (Thessaloniki, 1963), pp. 207-257; Anastasiou critically examines the claim that Michael and Bekkos descended upon Mt. Athos with a Latin army to persecute the monks; he rejects most of it as pious legend.
   6. ^ Pachymeres, De Michaele Palaeologo, VI.23 (Bekker ed., p. 481).
   7. ^ See J. Gill, "The Church union of the Council of Lyons (1274) portrayed in Greek documents," Orientalia Christiana Periodica 40 (1974), 5-45, esp. pp. 43 f.
   8. ^ The text was incorporated in Gregory of Cyprus's Tomus, translated by Papadakis, Crisis in Byzantium (1997), pp. 216 f. Cf. also Gill, Byzantium and the Papacy, 1198-1400 (1979), p. 294: "Beccus later declared that he then bowed before the storm because there was no possibility of having a hearing for his defence, but with the firm intention, which he expressed at the time to Metochites, 'as soon as the storm had died down a little of coming into the open before those responsible and the instigators to defend the truth openly.'"
   9. ^ For the date 1297, see especially V. Laurent, "Le date de la mort de Jean Beccos," Echos d'Orient 25 (1926), 316-319.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 20, 2010, 10:45:54 AM
Here's proof that there is at least one Orthodox person who has the capacity to grasp what the filioque means in Catholic teaching:


http://bekkos.wordpress.com/2010/04/07/notes-on-a-text-by-severian-of-gabala/


Here is proof that at least one Eastern Catholic has the capacity to grasp what the filioque means in Catholic teaching and to penetrate and explain the error of the teaching

http://sites.google.com/site/thetaboriclight/filioque


Tod Kaster's has all kinds of baggage and does not bring the cool light of scholarship to bear on much of anything at all.

And Gilbert has some special insight?  The  mere fact that her has called his website "bekkos" is enough.  Read up on Patriarch Bekkos.  How many monks on the Holy Mountain were killed and burnt alive?  His name in universally despised by the Orthodox.  Apart of course from Gilbert who has so much more insight than the Church and its recorded history which has got it all wrong.  

Quote
If you can find serious proof that Dr. Gilbert is as hot-headed as that poor kiddo taking care of his aging mama all by himself, then you let me know.

What inferences are you trying to make?

Gilbert's site says that he lives at home, he is 49 years old, with his daddy.  

Don't you live all alone yourself and take care of your own aging mama?  

Phew, but you're quick to hand out ad hominems and attack those who disagree with you.

You know Todd as well as I do.  He's young and he's immature and he is not particularly capable in his chosen field.  Over and over again he's been picked apart by older more mature scholars, right out in the Internet open where anyone can watch.

I think you could be thinking of another person.  Todd Kaster is sometimes attacked by Marduk and Ghosty on "the other forum" but he always bests them.  They cannot match his knowledge, especially in the area of pneumatology. Steubenville can be proud of his skills.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 20, 2010, 10:47:07 AM
Life

John Bekkos was born in Nicaea among the exiles from Constantinople during the period of Latin occupation of that city....

Gotta love that Wikipedia!  ::)


The Holy martyrs of Vatopedi were the same in number as the twelve holy Apostles.  Along with the abbot Efthymios they were martyred for our holy faith during the savage invasion of the papal-minded Emperor Michael Paleologos and Patriarch Vekkos.  The twelve were hung at Fourkovounion, and Efthymios was plunged with chains into the sea of Kalamidjiou.
(An Athonite Gerontikon)

There is serious scholarly doubt raised that John Bekkos can be implicated in the violence.  So you gotta love an honest scholar...or you can simply believe what you prefer to believe.

Mary
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Mickey on May 20, 2010, 10:48:50 AM
or you can simply believe what you prefer to believe.

Likewise....dear. ;)
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 20, 2010, 10:49:41 AM
Here's proof that there is at least one Orthodox person who has the capacity to grasp what the filioque means in Catholic teaching:


http://bekkos.wordpress.com/2010/04/07/notes-on-a-text-by-severian-of-gabala/


Here is proof that at least one Eastern Catholic has the capacity to grasp what the filioque means in Catholic teaching and to penetrate and explain the error of the teaching

http://sites.google.com/site/thetaboriclight/filioque


Tod Kaster's has all kinds of baggage and does not bring the cool light of scholarship to bear on much of anything at all.

And Gilbert has some special insight?  The  mere fact that her has called his website "bekkos" is enough.  Read up on Patriarch Bekkos.  How many monks on the Holy Mountain were killed and burnt alive?  His name in universally despised by the Orthodox.  Apart of course from Gilbert who has so much more insight than the Church and its recorded history which has got it all wrong.  

Quote
If you can find serious proof that Dr. Gilbert is as hot-headed as that poor kiddo taking care of his aging mama all by himself, then you let me know.

What inferences are you trying to make?

Gilbert's site says that he lives at home, he is 49 years old, with his daddy.  

Don't you live all alone yourself and take care of your own aging mama?  

Phew, but you're quick to hand out ad hominems and attack those who disagree with you.

You know Todd as well as I do.  He's young and he's immature and he is not particularly capable in his chosen field.  Over and over again he's been picked apart by older more mature scholars, right out in the Internet open where anyone can watch.

I think you could be thinking of another person.  Todd Kaster is sometimes attacked by Marduk and Ghosty on "the other forum" but he always bests them.  They cannot match his knowledge, especially in the area of pneumatology. Steubenville can be proud of his skills.

The kid talks in philosophical circles and ignores all text that does not support his cause.  He has never bested Ghosty.  

Ghosty knows when to let something rest because to go on would simply be cruel.

Besides when Todd gets pushed to the wall he whines that he is alone and taking care of his mother and does not have time to address the criticisms fully.

M.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 20, 2010, 10:52:08 AM
or you can simply believe what you prefer to believe.

Likewise....dear. ;)

The final years of Michael VIII’s reign were entirely taken up with defending his empire against the threat posed by the Western king Charles of Anjou, and, in his anxiety to meet this threat, Michael enforced a "reign of terror" against opponents of union; but there is no convincing evidence that John Bekkos ever actively took part in or supported acts of violent persecution.[5]

Although earlier in his patriarchate Bekkos had promised not to reply to the pamphlets that were being circulated against the ecclesiastical union, by the latter years of Michael's reign he had changed his mind about this, and began "holding numerous synods, calling all and sundry, and dug up books and published many others,"[6] defending the union on theological grounds, arguing the compatibility of the Latin doctrine with Greek patristic tradition. The effect of this was further to alienate most of the Greek clergy against him; it was this publishing activity that later served as the explicit grounds for the charges that were laid against him.[7]
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 20, 2010, 11:02:29 AM

Besides when Todd gets pushed to the wall he whines that he is alone and taking care of his mother and does not have time to address the criticisms fully.


I have been on the same boards for several years and do not recall that ever happening.

Marduk, on the other hand, is quite adept at getting out of discussions he is loosing by going off for a week on urgent business. :laugh:

You may be conflating Gilbert and his father and Marduk and his absences?
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Mickey on May 20, 2010, 11:04:19 AM
but there is no convincing evidence that John Bekkos ever actively took part in or supported acts of violent persecution.

No evidence that he supported it? No evidence that he attempted to stop it? No evidence that he condemned the murders after they were committed?  ???

Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 20, 2010, 11:04:40 AM
or you can simply believe what you prefer to believe.

Likewise....dear. ;)

The final years of Michael VIII’s reign were entirely taken up with defending his empire against the threat posed by the Western king Charles of Anjou, and, in his anxiety to meet this threat, Michael enforced a "reign of terror" against opponents of union; but there is no convincing evidence that John Bekkos ever actively took part in or supported acts of violent persecution.[5]


Was this article in Wiki composed by Gilbert?  ;)
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 20, 2010, 11:15:45 AM
or you can simply believe what you prefer to believe.

Likewise....dear. ;)

The final years of Michael VIII’s reign were entirely taken up with defending his empire against the threat posed by the Western king Charles of Anjou, and, in his anxiety to meet this threat, Michael enforced a "reign of terror" against opponents of union; but there is no convincing evidence that John Bekkos ever actively took part in or supported acts of violent persecution.[5]

Although earlier in his patriarchate Bekkos had promised not to reply to the pamphlets that were being circulated against the ecclesiastical union, by the latter years of Michael's reign he had changed his mind about this, and began "holding numerous synods, calling all and sundry, and dug up books and published many others,"[6] defending the union on theological grounds, arguing the compatibility of the Latin doctrine with Greek patristic tradition. The effect of this was further to alienate most of the Greek clergy against him; it was this publishing activity that later served as the explicit grounds for the charges that were laid against him.[7]

I thought as much.

Look at the bottom of the page of the history of this article and you will see it was written by <surprise!> Gilbert.  No wonder it accentuates what he wants to accentuate.  :laugh:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Patriarch_John_XI_of_Constantinople&action=history

I notice he has not been so foolhardy as to include this article on Orthodowiki where it would be noticed by Greek Orthodox scholars.

.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: lubeltri on May 20, 2010, 11:18:23 AM
I just wanted to voice a slight objection to how the Roman Catholics who seem to hold the Mother of God in such high esteem....refer to her on such a familiar basis as simply "Mary".  I've heard this a number of times and it offends me.

Just a couple of weeks ago I was at a function where a Byzantine Catholic priest stood up for the closing prayer and then gave a few words.  His constant referral to "Maria" just irritated me.  Maria, who?  Fraulein Maria?

I must take exception to this. I don't think there is any disrespect in referring to the Blessed Mother as "Mary." It is a holy name, made sacred by the bearer of it.


Yes...well....I've also met too many Roman Catholics named "Jesus"...which I also find disrespectful.



LOL, as an English-speaking Catholic, I also find all of the Hispanics named Jesús a bit on the odd side, as well!

Though I would not impugn disrespect on the pious parents who gave their sons such a name. :)
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 20, 2010, 11:25:36 AM
or you can simply believe what you prefer to believe.

Likewise....dear. ;)

The final years of Michael VIII’s reign were entirely taken up with defending his empire against the threat posed by the Western king Charles of Anjou, and, in his anxiety to meet this threat, Michael enforced a "reign of terror" against opponents of union; but there is no convincing evidence that John Bekkos ever actively took part in or supported acts of violent persecution.[5]

Although earlier in his patriarchate Bekkos had promised not to reply to the pamphlets that were being circulated against the ecclesiastical union, by the latter years of Michael's reign he had changed his mind about this, and began "holding numerous synods, calling all and sundry, and dug up books and published many others,"[6] defending the union on theological grounds, arguing the compatibility of the Latin doctrine with Greek patristic tradition. The effect of this was further to alienate most of the Greek clergy against him; it was this publishing activity that later served as the explicit grounds for the charges that were laid against him.[7]

I thought as much.

Look at the bottom of the page of the history of this article and you will see it was written by <surprise!> Gilbert.  No wonder it accentuates what he wants to accentuate.  :laugh:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Patriarch_John_XI_of_Constantinople&action=history

I notice he has not been so foolhardy as to include this article on Orthodowiki where it would be noticed by Greek Orthodox scholars.

.

It seems to have undergone some steady revision as well and nobody has challenged the basic scholarship and there are even some Greek sounding names among the revisionists:

Revision history of Patriarch John XI of Constantinople
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Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 20, 2010, 11:29:24 AM
or you can simply believe what you prefer to believe.

Likewise....dear. ;)

The final years of Michael VIII’s reign were entirely taken up with defending his empire against the threat posed by the Western king Charles of Anjou, and, in his anxiety to meet this threat, Michael enforced a "reign of terror" against opponents of union; but there is no convincing evidence that John Bekkos ever actively took part in or supported acts of violent persecution.[5]

Although earlier in his patriarchate Bekkos had promised not to reply to the pamphlets that were being circulated against the ecclesiastical union, by the latter years of Michael's reign he had changed his mind about this, and began "holding numerous synods, calling all and sundry, and dug up books and published many others,"[6] defending the union on theological grounds, arguing the compatibility of the Latin doctrine with Greek patristic tradition. The effect of this was further to alienate most of the Greek clergy against him; it was this publishing activity that later served as the explicit grounds for the charges that were laid against him.[7]

I thought as much.

Look at the bottom of the page of the history of this article and you will see it was written by <surprise!> Gilbert. 

I see where he revised it but I don't see that he wrote it...

M.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 20, 2010, 11:34:31 AM
Does Orthodoxy teach that there was a Second Person of the Trinity prior to Jesus's birth?

Mary
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Schultz on May 20, 2010, 11:35:25 AM
or you can simply believe what you prefer to believe.

Likewise....dear. ;)

The final years of Michael VIII’s reign were entirely taken up with defending his empire against the threat posed by the Western king Charles of Anjou, and, in his anxiety to meet this threat, Michael enforced a "reign of terror" against opponents of union; but there is no convincing evidence that John Bekkos ever actively took part in or supported acts of violent persecution.[5]

Although earlier in his patriarchate Bekkos had promised not to reply to the pamphlets that were being circulated against the ecclesiastical union, by the latter years of Michael's reign he had changed his mind about this, and began "holding numerous synods, calling all and sundry, and dug up books and published many others,"[6] defending the union on theological grounds, arguing the compatibility of the Latin doctrine with Greek patristic tradition. The effect of this was further to alienate most of the Greek clergy against him; it was this publishing activity that later served as the explicit grounds for the charges that were laid against him.[7]

I thought as much.

Look at the bottom of the page of the history of this article and you will see it was written by <surprise!> Gilbert. 

I see where he revised it but I don't see that he wrote it...

M.

* (cur | prev) 09:59, 15 December 2006 PLGilbert (talk | contribs) (I have changed what was a stub article to a complete article.) (undo)

emphasis mine
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 20, 2010, 11:37:53 AM
or you can simply believe what you prefer to believe.

Likewise....dear. ;)

The final years of Michael VIII’s reign were entirely taken up with defending his empire against the threat posed by the Western king Charles of Anjou, and, in his anxiety to meet this threat, Michael enforced a "reign of terror" against opponents of union; but there is no convincing evidence that John Bekkos ever actively took part in or supported acts of violent persecution.[5]

Although earlier in his patriarchate Bekkos had promised not to reply to the pamphlets that were being circulated against the ecclesiastical union, by the latter years of Michael's reign he had changed his mind about this, and began "holding numerous synods, calling all and sundry, and dug up books and published many others,"[6] defending the union on theological grounds, arguing the compatibility of the Latin doctrine with Greek patristic tradition. The effect of this was further to alienate most of the Greek clergy against him; it was this publishing activity that later served as the explicit grounds for the charges that were laid against him.[7]

I thought as much.

Look at the bottom of the page of the history of this article and you will see it was written by <surprise!> Gilbert. 

I see where he revised it but I don't see that he wrote it...

M.

Put you glasses on, Mary, and read the third line from the bottom

* (cur | prev) 09:59, 15 December 2006 PLGilbert (talk | contribs) (I have changed what was a stub article to a complete article.) (undo)

If you wish to discover the tiny fragments in the article which are not his, click on "Undo" and see what remains.   However DO NOT SAVE this revision or you'll wipe out all his work!
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 20, 2010, 11:40:00 AM
Does Orthodoxy teach that there was a Second Person of the Trinity prior to Jesus's birth?

Mary

Prior to the Incarnation there was only a Binity, but we don't talk about it very much.   :laugh:
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 20, 2010, 11:41:31 AM
or you can simply believe what you prefer to believe.

Likewise....dear. ;)

The final years of Michael VIII’s reign were entirely taken up with defending his empire against the threat posed by the Western king Charles of Anjou, and, in his anxiety to meet this threat, Michael enforced a "reign of terror" against opponents of union; but there is no convincing evidence that John Bekkos ever actively took part in or supported acts of violent persecution.[5]

Although earlier in his patriarchate Bekkos had promised not to reply to the pamphlets that were being circulated against the ecclesiastical union, by the latter years of Michael's reign he had changed his mind about this, and began "holding numerous synods, calling all and sundry, and dug up books and published many others,"[6] defending the union on theological grounds, arguing the compatibility of the Latin doctrine with Greek patristic tradition. The effect of this was further to alienate most of the Greek clergy against him; it was this publishing activity that later served as the explicit grounds for the charges that were laid against him.[7]

I thought as much.

Look at the bottom of the page of the history of this article and you will see it was written by <surprise!> Gilbert. 

I see where he revised it but I don't see that he wrote it...

M.

* (cur | prev) 09:59, 15 December 2006 PLGilbert (talk | contribs) (I have changed what was a stub article to a complete article.) (undo)

emphasis mine

Ok...thank you!!
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 20, 2010, 11:42:52 AM
Bump

This was a very serious question, Father. 

Now I presume that your quip here means "Yes"

Does Orthodoxy teach that there was a Second Person of the Trinity prior to Jesus's birth?

Mary

Prior to the Incarnation there was only a Binity, but we don't talk about it very much.   :laugh:
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 20, 2010, 11:44:12 AM
Prior to the Annunciation, do the Orthodox call the Second Person of the Trinity....'Begotten'?

Mary
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 20, 2010, 12:02:28 PM

Prior to the Annunciation, do the Orthodox call the Second Person of the Trinity....'Begotten'?


What an odd question!  Are you having a hypoglycemic moment?   :laugh:

"...And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages..."

Although you do have to tease that apart..... it was not the Lord Jesus Christ, the God-man, who was begottoen before all ages.  It was the Second Person of the Trinity.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: christianos on May 20, 2010, 12:14:13 PM
If I can add something about Filioque :)

It would be a heresy If in latin Creed was written "ab Patre et ab Filio procedit". However, we know that there is different expression "Ab Patre Fiolioque procedit".  Latin "quo" means here the same like english "and" but introduces the semantic asymmetry, which nor English, neither Greek cannot express, as an example of this distinction I'll give well-known Latin quotation "Senatus populusque Romanus" (The Senate and the People of Rome).

I tried to find one sentence written by Aleksandar Shmeman in his book "Литургия и живот" but I need more time.
He wrote that the Holy Spirit is the personal relationship of love of the Father and the Son. As soon as I find this passage immediately I will write it here.
Such statement as far I know is close to St. Augustine was used even by St. Gregory Palamas.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 20, 2010, 12:21:48 PM

I tried to find one sentence written by Aleksandar Shmeman in his book "Литургия и живот" but I need more time.
He wrote that the Holy Spirit is the personal relationship of love of the Father and the Son. As soon as I find this passage immediately I will write it here.
Such statement as far I know is close to St. Augustine was used even by St. Gregory Palamas.

Dear Christianos,

It would be interesting to see Schmemann's statement since this, as far as I know, has always been presented by the Orthodox as an aberrant Roman Catholic understanding of the relationship between the Persons of the Trinity.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 20, 2010, 12:31:58 PM

Prior to the Annunciation, do the Orthodox call the Second Person of the Trinity....'Begotten'?


What an odd question!  Are you having a hypoglycemic moment?   :laugh:

"...And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages..."

Although you do have to tease that apart..... it was not the Lord Jesus Christ, the God-man, who was begottoen before all ages.  It was the Second Person of the Trinity.

Does Orthodoxy teach that the Second Person of the Trinity was begotten of the Father before all ages in his Hypostasis or in His Essence?

Mary
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: ialmisry on May 20, 2010, 12:35:54 PM

Prior to the Annunciation, do the Orthodox call the Second Person of the Trinity....'Begotten'?


What an odd question!  Are you having a hypoglycemic moment?   :laugh:

"...And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages..."

Although you do have to tease that apart..... it was not the Lord Jesus Christ, the God-man, who was begottoen before all ages.  It was the Second Person of the Trinity.

Does Orthodoxy teach that the Second Person of the Trinity was begotten of the Father before all ages in his Hypostasis or in His Essence?

Mary
It would have to be in His Hypostasis, as He has no seperate Essence.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 20, 2010, 12:52:56 PM

Prior to the Annunciation, do the Orthodox call the Second Person of the Trinity....'Begotten'?


What an odd question!  Are you having a hypoglycemic moment?   :laugh:

"...And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages..."

Although you do have to tease that apart..... it was not the Lord Jesus Christ, the God-man, who was begottoen before all ages.  It was the Second Person of the Trinity.

Does Orthodoxy teach that the Second Person of the Trinity was begotten of the Father before all ages in his Hypostasis or in His Essence?

Mary
It would have to be in His Hypostasis, as He has no seperate Essence.

Then you inherently understand the Catholic teaching of filioque.

Mary
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: christianos on May 20, 2010, 01:34:16 PM
Quote
Dear Christianos,

It would be interesting to see Schmemann's statement since this, as far as I know, has always been presented by the Orthodox as an aberrant Roman Catholic understanding of the relationship between the Persons of the Trinity.

Here you are:

(http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/6872/szmemen.jpg)
the quality is not good but I took the picture by my camera.

Quote
Този вечен дар на Отца за Цина, е самият Божи Дух- Дух на любов, на съвършенство, на красота, на цялата неизчерпаена дълвина на Божията същност.

I don't know do I have to translate all of it, but the most iportant sentense means in english "more and less" like that:
"This eternal gift of Father to the Sin is Holy Spirit by himself, Spirit of Love, of Perfection of Beauty, of endless depth of God's being (essence)."

P.S. if someone can correct this translation I'd be grateful :)
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: ialmisry on May 20, 2010, 01:38:05 PM

Prior to the Annunciation, do the Orthodox call the Second Person of the Trinity....'Begotten'?


What an odd question!  Are you having a hypoglycemic moment?   :laugh:

"...And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages..."

Although you do have to tease that apart..... it was not the Lord Jesus Christ, the God-man, who was begottoen before all ages.  It was the Second Person of the Trinity.

Does Orthodoxy teach that the Second Person of the Trinity was begotten of the Father before all ages in his Hypostasis or in His Essence?

Mary
It would have to be in His Hypostasis, as He has no seperate Essence.

Then you inherently understand the Catholic teaching of filioque.
and why it is heresy.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 20, 2010, 01:42:39 PM

Prior to the Annunciation, do the Orthodox call the Second Person of the Trinity....'Begotten'?


What an odd question!  Are you having a hypoglycemic moment?   :laugh:

"...And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages..."

Although you do have to tease that apart..... it was not the Lord Jesus Christ, the God-man, who was begottoen before all ages.  It was the Second Person of the Trinity.

Does Orthodoxy teach that the Second Person of the Trinity was begotten of the Father before all ages in his Hypostasis or in His Essence?

Mary
It would have to be in His Hypostasis, as He has no seperate Essence.

Then you inherently understand the Catholic teaching of filioque.
and why it is heresy.

Apparently not because Orthodoxy teaches the same thing without using filioque to do so.

M.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: tuesdayschild on May 20, 2010, 04:33:10 PM
Does Orthodoxy teach that the Second Person of the Trinity was begotten of the Father before all ages in his Hypostasis or in His Essence?
It would have to be in His Hypostasis, as He has no seperate Essence.

Then you inherently understand the Catholic teaching of filioque.


Please elaborate.  How is it that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (a third divine hypostatis from two divine hypostases) rather than from "one God, the Father almighty" (one divine essence), Who also begets the Son?
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 20, 2010, 04:47:26 PM
Does Orthodoxy teach that the Second Person of the Trinity was begotten of the Father before all ages in his Hypostasis or in His Essence?
It would have to be in His Hypostasis, as He has no seperate Essence.

Then you inherently understand the Catholic teaching of filioque.


Please elaborate.  How is it that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (a third divine hypostatis from two divine hypostases) rather than from "one God, the Father almighty" (one divine essence), Who also begets the Son?

I have no idea because what you have displayed here has nothing to do with any Catholic teaching.

You might check on some other Christian forum, but it is certainly not Catholic.

Mary
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: tuesdayschild on May 20, 2010, 05:07:44 PM
Does Orthodoxy teach that the Second Person of the Trinity was begotten of the Father before all ages in his Hypostasis or in His Essence?
It would have to be in His Hypostasis, as He has no seperate Essence.

Then you inherently understand the Catholic teaching of filioque.


Please elaborate.  How is it that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (a third divine hypostatis from two divine hypostases) rather than from "one God, the Father almighty" (one divine essence), Who also begets the Son?

I have no idea because what you have displayed here has nothing to do with any Catholic teaching.

You might check on some other Christian forum, but it is certainly not Catholic.

Mary

Sometimes I don't explain things as well as I would like to.  Okay, I'll simplify.  How does the Spirit proceeds from both Father and Son, rather than Father alone?
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 20, 2010, 05:29:19 PM
Does Orthodoxy teach that the Second Person of the Trinity was begotten of the Father before all ages in his Hypostasis or in His Essence?
It would have to be in His Hypostasis, as He has no seperate Essence.

Then you inherently understand the Catholic teaching of filioque.


Please elaborate.  How is it that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (a third divine hypostatis from two divine hypostases) rather than from "one God, the Father almighty" (one divine essence), Who also begets the Son?

I have no idea because what you have displayed here has nothing to do with any Catholic teaching.

You might check on some other Christian forum, but it is certainly not Catholic.

Mary

Sometimes I don't explain things as well as I would like to.  Okay, I'll simplify.  How does the Spirit proceeds from both Father and Son, rather than Father alone?

From the Son the Spirit is spirated eternally as from the essence, and then through the hypostasis in time. 

The Spirit originates only from the Father who is the singular source.

M.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 20, 2010, 11:54:37 PM
Does Orthodoxy teach that the Second Person of the Trinity was begotten of the Father before all ages in his Hypostasis or in His Essence?
It would have to be in His Hypostasis, as He has no seperate Essence.

Then you inherently understand the Catholic teaching of filioque.


Please elaborate.  How is it that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (a third divine hypostatis from two divine hypostases) rather than from "one God, the Father almighty" (one divine essence), Who also begets the Son?

I have no idea because what you have displayed here has nothing to do with any Catholic teaching.

You might check on some other Christian forum, but it is certainly not Catholic.

Mary

Sometimes I don't explain things as well as I would like to.  Okay, I'll simplify.  How does the Spirit proceeds from both Father and Son, rather than Father alone?

From the Son the Spirit is spirated eternally as from the essence, and then through the hypostasis in time.  

The Spirit originates only from the Father who is the singular source.


Explain the difference between spiration and origination.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 21, 2010, 12:05:30 AM

From the Son the Spirit is spirated eternally as from the essence, and then through the hypostasis in time.  

The Spirit originates only from the Father who is the singular source.


Saint Gregory the Theologian who died about 388 AD is an erudite representative of the Church Fathers on the subject of the origins of the three Persons of the Trinity.  He has no hint at all of any eternal procession of the Spirit "by the Father 'through the Son' as from one principle."

Saint Gregory's statement about the difference in manifestation refers to the difference between begetting and proceeding as he makes clear in Oration 32:8:The Fifth Theological Oration, "On the Holy Spirit":
 
You hear that there is generation? Do not waste your time in seeking after the how. You hear that the Spirit proceeds from the Father? Do not busy yourself about the how" [Orat XX, 2]  "You ask what is the procession of the Holy Spirit? Do tell me first what is the unbegottenness of the Father, then I will explain to you the physiology of the Son's generation and the Spirit's procession and both of us shall be stricken with madness for prying into the mystery of God" [Orat XXXI, 8]  
 
The Fifth Theological Oration.On the Holy
Spirit by St Gregory Nazianzen


In my opinion the Western world has been long stricken with the madness against which Saint Gregory cautions.

Another Church Father shared by us both. Saint John of Damascus:

'The mode of generation and the mode of procession are incomprehensible. We have learned that there is a difference between generation and procession, but the nature of the difference we in no wise understand.'

and also from Saint John of Damascus:

"We do not speak of the Spirit as from the Son."  


The Orthodox know only within the limits of Scripture and Tradition. Both of these affirm that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father only. This is what we know with crystal clear clarity.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: ialmisry on May 21, 2010, 12:21:03 AM

Prior to the Annunciation, do the Orthodox call the Second Person of the Trinity....'Begotten'?


What an odd question!  Are you having a hypoglycemic moment?   :laugh:

"...And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages..."

Although you do have to tease that apart..... it was not the Lord Jesus Christ, the God-man, who was begottoen before all ages.  It was the Second Person of the Trinity.

Does Orthodoxy teach that the Second Person of the Trinity was begotten of the Father before all ages in his Hypostasis or in His Essence?

Mary
It would have to be in His Hypostasis, as He has no seperate Essence.

Then you inherently understand the Catholic teaching of filioque.
and why it is heresy.

Apparently not because Orthodoxy teaches the same thing without using filioque to do so.

M.
No, we do not, no matter how much you, the Vatican, Bishop Kallistos or the Phanar may dream otherwise.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: ialmisry on May 21, 2010, 12:25:42 AM
Does Orthodoxy teach that the Second Person of the Trinity was begotten of the Father before all ages in his Hypostasis or in His Essence?
It would have to be in His Hypostasis, as He has no seperate Essence.

Then you inherently understand the Catholic teaching of filioque.


Please elaborate.  How is it that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (a third divine hypostatis from two divine hypostases) rather than from "one God, the Father almighty" (one divine essence), Who also begets the Son?

I have no idea because what you have displayed here has nothing to do with any Catholic teaching.

You might check on some other Christian forum, but it is certainly not Catholic.
It most certainly is not.  But it most certainly is the Vatican's teaching.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Asteriktos on May 21, 2010, 05:42:28 AM
Quote
Oh, yeah, its not the Fathers for you guys, or even the Greek Fathers, but only those who explicite endorse the mondern ethnocentric EO view on any given matter.

So... what's the problem with that? :)
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 21, 2010, 08:25:07 AM
Does Orthodoxy teach that the Second Person of the Trinity was begotten of the Father before all ages in his Hypostasis or in His Essence?
It would have to be in His Hypostasis, as He has no seperate Essence.

Then you inherently understand the Catholic teaching of filioque.


Please elaborate.  How is it that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (a third divine hypostatis from two divine hypostases) rather than from "one God, the Father almighty" (one divine essence), Who also begets the Son?

I have no idea because what you have displayed here has nothing to do with any Catholic teaching.

You might check on some other Christian forum, but it is certainly not Catholic.

Mary

Sometimes I don't explain things as well as I would like to.  Okay, I'll simplify.  How does the Spirit proceeds from both Father and Son, rather than Father alone?

From the Son the Spirit is spirated eternally as from the essence, and then through the hypostasis in time.  

The Spirit originates only from the Father who is the singular source.


Explain the difference between spiration and origination.

Explain one in essence.

Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: tuesdayschild on May 21, 2010, 10:11:51 AM
Does Orthodoxy teach that the Second Person of the Trinity was begotten of the Father before all ages in his Hypostasis or in His Essence?
It would have to be in His Hypostasis, as He has no seperate Essence.

Then you inherently understand the Catholic teaching of filioque.


Please elaborate.  How is it that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (a third divine hypostatis from two divine hypostases) rather than from "one God, the Father almighty" (one divine essence), Who also begets the Son?

I have no idea because what you have displayed here has nothing to do with any Catholic teaching.

You might check on some other Christian forum, but it is certainly not Catholic.

Mary

Sometimes I don't explain things as well as I would like to.  Okay, I'll simplify.  How does the Spirit proceeds from both Father and Son, rather than Father alone?

From the Son the Spirit is spirated eternally as from the essence, and then through the hypostasis in time.  

The Spirit originates only from the Father who is the singular source.


Explain the difference between spiration and origination.

Explain one in essence.

"Consubstantial" meaning "of one substance."

Your turn.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Papist on May 21, 2010, 06:46:07 PM
Quote
Oh, yeah, its not the Fathers for you guys, or even the Greek Fathers, but only those who explicite endorse the mondern ethnocentric EO view on any given matter.

So... what's the problem with that? :)
The problem with that is that you cannot defend your position as being the true Church by only appealing to the Fathers who were highly hellenized. You end up in a circular argument.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 21, 2010, 07:35:37 PM
Well the Latin Church used a different word in the Creed in Latin and that didn't seem to bother for centuries, and I expect people knew it was different then as they do now.

I would actually say that the proper meaning of a creed is what the authors of it meant by the language they used to write it, not what meaning later readers of it can interpret into it. And such interpretation is illegitimate and breaks doctrinal continuity if it is not the same meaning as the authors meant by it. Thus, using procedere to mean anything other than ἐκπόρευσις is to introduce a deviant creed.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 21, 2010, 07:44:25 PM
Thomas Ross's discussion of the filioque has never made sense to me.  He clearly does not grasp Catholic teaching and so it is impossible to offer a genuine commentary on his essay based upon Catholic teaching concerning the filioque. 

How about commentary on his point (about 3/4 down the page) viz-a-viz the historical language of eternal double-procession in RC dogmatic statements?

At any rate Dr. Gilbert does apparently grasp Catholic teaching and the history of the teaching and he definitely is Orthodox, so that is a good thing to witness in this world of common misunderstandings.

I don't know how seriously I can take the conclusions of a man who makes such blatantly false statements as, "It was on account of people like him, who preferred the Turban to the Tiara, that the Greek nation was shortly afterwards submerged in darkness and slavery for four hundred years."  When examining the man's writings, an unsupportable and patently untrue statement like that is akin to finding self-inflicted gangrene in a medical examination: there is a problem, and it is going to effect everything around it.

Thomas Ross deals in literal black and white and does not account for meaning, much the same way Father Ambrose insists on it, when speaking of original sin. 

So you see as long as you are not willing to accept Catholics when they explain meaning then you control the terms of the discussion and there's no dialogue.  You simply rear up and inform us of what we have taught for 2000 years...or not.  It's a nice position to be in.  Ask any of the British colonies who wrote their early histories and how the indigenes fared in the telling....

Also Dr. Gilbert is an historian and I expect he'd not make those kinds of statements had he not had some experience with texts to have allowed him to say what he said.  He is certainly not anti-Orthodox.   But he does not back off an historical truth if he finds one simply because it is inconvenient.

I think he makes a good point. If the Latins have really just meant all along that the Holy Spirit is sent from the Father and the Son, then why have they taught that the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father and the Son? Non-ontological sending or missioning would appear to not be a matter of eternity, and only the ontological procession could be.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 21, 2010, 07:46:37 PM
Well the Latin Church used a different word in the Creed in Latin and that didn't seem to bother for centuries, and I expect people knew it was different then as they do now.

I would actually say that the proper meaning of a creed is what the authors of it meant by the language they used to write it, not what meaning later readers of it can interpret into it. And such interpretation is illegitimate and breaks doctrinal continuity if it is not the same meaning as the authors meant by it. Thus, using procedere to mean anything other than ἐκπόρευσις is to introduce a deviant creed.

Should have made note of that immediately, rather than a thousand years later.  It was VERY clear from the beginning that the Latin did not mean at all precisely the same thing as the Greek.  The Latin word was chosen precisely because it had the dual meaning of originating and a non-originating procession.  So if that had been a problem, it should have been noted then, not now.

Mary
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 21, 2010, 07:49:31 PM
I just wanted to voice a slight objection to how the Roman Catholics who seem to hold the Mother of God in such high esteem....refer to her on such a familiar basis as simply "Mary".  I've heard this a number of times and it offends me.

Just a couple of weeks ago I was at a function where a Byzantine Catholic priest stood up for the closing prayer and then gave a few words.  His constant referral to "Maria" just irritated me.  Maria, who?  Fraulein Maria?

I must take exception to this. I don't think there is any disrespect in referring to the Blessed Mother as "Mary." It is a holy name, made sacred by the bearer of it.


Yes...well....I've also met too many Roman Catholics named "Jesus"...which I also find disrespectful.



What about Josh? Jesus is simply one particular rendering of a Greek rendering of the original. Joshua is an English rendering of Yehoshua.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 21, 2010, 07:55:50 PM
Does Orthodoxy teach that there was a Second Person of the Trinity prior to Jesus's birth?

Mary

Of course. Even the Arians would have said that there was a second person of the Triad before Jesus' birth.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 21, 2010, 07:57:02 PM
Does Orthodoxy teach that there was a Second Person of the Trinity prior to Jesus's birth?

Mary

Prior to the Incarnation there was only a Binity, but we don't talk about it very much.   :laugh:

Erm....  ???
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 21, 2010, 07:57:48 PM
Prior to the Annunciation, do the Orthodox call the Second Person of the Trinity....'Begotten'?

Mary

Of course. The Logos is eternally begotten of the Father.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Asteriktos on May 21, 2010, 07:57:55 PM
Quote
Oh, yeah, its not the Fathers for you guys, or even the Greek Fathers, but only those who explicite endorse the mondern ethnocentric EO view on any given matter.

So... what's the problem with that? :)
The problem with that is that you cannot defend your position as being the true Church by only appealing to the Fathers who were highly hellenized. You end up in a circular argument.

All arguments are circular arguments, if you follow them far enough... ;) But as for selectively quoting Fathers, in Orthodoxy they use a nebulous "mind of the Fathers" concept. It's a terribly vague and arbitrary method, but then what is the alternative? A terribly tyrannical and arbitrary Papal system? A terribly unworkable and unusable formula of St. Vincent of Lerins? I don't like the way the Orthodox do it, but then the problem reminds me of that phrase by Winston Churchill... it's the worst way of doing it, except for all the others.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 21, 2010, 07:58:55 PM
it was not the Lord Jesus Christ, the God-man, who was begottoen before all ages.  It was the Second Person of the Trinity.

They are one and the same. The only difference is that Jesus Christ was not human beforehand.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 21, 2010, 08:03:06 PM
If I can add something about Filioque :)

It would be a heresy If in latin Creed was written "ab Patre et ab Filio procedit". However, we know that there is different expression "Ab Patre Fiolioque procedit".  Latin "quo" means here the same like english "and" but introduces the semantic asymmetry, which nor English, neither Greek cannot express, as an example of this distinction I'll give well-known Latin quotation "Senatus populusque Romanus" (The Senate and the People of Rome).

I tried to find one sentence written by Aleksandar Shmeman in his book "Литургия и живот" but I need more time.
He wrote that the Holy Spirit is the personal relationship of love of the Father and the Son. As soon as I find this passage immediately I will write it here.
Such statement as far I know is close to St. Augustine was used even by St. Gregory Palamas.

I don't know where this "ab Patre" is coming from. The Latin says "ex Patre". Anyway, what is your imagined difference between "ex Filio" and "filioque"?

Also, I would be interested to see what in the writings of Gregory Palamas you are referring to?
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 21, 2010, 08:05:42 PM

Prior to the Annunciation, do the Orthodox call the Second Person of the Trinity....'Begotten'?


What an odd question!  Are you having a hypoglycemic moment?   :laugh:

"...And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages..."

Although you do have to tease that apart..... it was not the Lord Jesus Christ, the God-man, who was begottoen before all ages.  It was the Second Person of the Trinity.

Does Orthodoxy teach that the Second Person of the Trinity was begotten of the Father before all ages in his Hypostasis or in His Essence?

Mary

The Essence is principally the Unbegotten's. He eternally begat the hypostasis of the Logos as another instance of His own essence. So it would not be appropriate to say that the essence was eternally begotten, but it would be appropriate to say that the hypostasis of the Logos was eternally begotten in the essence of the Father.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 21, 2010, 08:06:23 PM

Prior to the Annunciation, do the Orthodox call the Second Person of the Trinity....'Begotten'?


What an odd question!  Are you having a hypoglycemic moment?   :laugh:

"...And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages..."

Although you do have to tease that apart..... it was not the Lord Jesus Christ, the God-man, who was begottoen before all ages.  It was the Second Person of the Trinity.

Does Orthodoxy teach that the Second Person of the Trinity was begotten of the Father before all ages in his Hypostasis or in His Essence?

Mary
It would have to be in His Hypostasis, as He has no seperate Essence.

Then you inherently understand the Catholic teaching of filioque.

Mary

How so?
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 21, 2010, 08:08:30 PM
Quote
Dear Christianos,

It would be interesting to see Schmemann's statement since this, as far as I know, has always been presented by the Orthodox as an aberrant Roman Catholic understanding of the relationship between the Persons of the Trinity.

Here you are:

(http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/6872/szmemen.jpg)
the quality is not good but I took the picture by my camera.

Quote
Този вечен дар на Отца за Цина, е самият Божи Дух- Дух на любов, на съвършенство, на красота, на цялата неизчерпаена дълвина на Божията същност.

I don't know do I have to translate all of it, but the most iportant sentense means in english "more and less" like that:
"This eternal gift of Father to the Sin is Holy Spirit by himself, Spirit of Love, of Perfection of Beauty, of endless depth of God's being (essence)."

P.S. if someone can correct this translation I'd be grateful :)


Which expresses John Damascene's formula that the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father and rests in the Son. It doesn't really seem to support the idea that the Holy Spirit in His origin is the love between the Father and the Son. Rather it indicates that the Holy Spirit is ontologically the love of the Father which He gives to the Son as an eternal gift that He comes to possess as His own.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 21, 2010, 08:09:04 PM

Prior to the Annunciation, do the Orthodox call the Second Person of the Trinity....'Begotten'?


What an odd question!  Are you having a hypoglycemic moment?   :laugh:

"...And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages..."

Although you do have to tease that apart..... it was not the Lord Jesus Christ, the God-man, who was begottoen before all ages.  It was the Second Person of the Trinity.

Does Orthodoxy teach that the Second Person of the Trinity was begotten of the Father before all ages in his Hypostasis or in His Essence?

Mary
It would have to be in His Hypostasis, as He has no seperate Essence.

Then you inherently understand the Catholic teaching of filioque.
and why it is heresy.

Apparently not because Orthodoxy teaches the same thing without using filioque to do so.

M.

What is the teaching that you are referring to?
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 21, 2010, 08:10:53 PM
Does Orthodoxy teach that the Second Person of the Trinity was begotten of the Father before all ages in his Hypostasis or in His Essence?
It would have to be in His Hypostasis, as He has no seperate Essence.

Then you inherently understand the Catholic teaching of filioque.


Please elaborate.  How is it that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (a third divine hypostatis from two divine hypostases) rather than from "one God, the Father almighty" (one divine essence), Who also begets the Son?

I have no idea because what you have displayed here has nothing to do with any Catholic teaching.

You might check on some other Christian forum, but it is certainly not Catholic.

Mary

Sometimes I don't explain things as well as I would like to.  Okay, I'll simplify.  How does the Spirit proceeds from both Father and Son, rather than Father alone?

From the Son the Spirit is spirated eternally as from the essence, and then through the hypostasis in time. 

The Spirit originates only from the Father who is the singular source.

M.

I've never been able to understand what this "as from" business means. Does the Holy Spirit spirate from the essence or not?
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 21, 2010, 08:14:35 PM
Well the Latin Church used a different word in the Creed in Latin and that didn't seem to bother for centuries, and I expect people knew it was different then as they do now.

I would actually say that the proper meaning of a creed is what the authors of it meant by the language they used to write it, not what meaning later readers of it can interpret into it. And such interpretation is illegitimate and breaks doctrinal continuity if it is not the same meaning as the authors meant by it. Thus, using procedere to mean anything other than ἐκπόρευσις is to introduce a deviant creed.

Should have made note of that immediately, rather than a thousand years later.  It was VERY clear from the beginning that the Latin did not mean at all precisely the same thing as the Greek.  The Latin word was chosen precisely because it had the dual meaning of originating and a non-originating procession.  So if that had been a problem, it should have been noted then, not now.

Mary

If it has an inherent connotation of originating procession, that is perfectly fine. If it is open to either, then the Latins should have researched the Creed sufficiently to recognize that if they are to use procedere it must be used to be the same in meaning. If they did not, then they didn't really do their job in sufficiently analyzing statements of faith before accepting them and didn't really receive the Creed.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 21, 2010, 09:55:34 PM
removed
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: ialmisry on May 21, 2010, 10:58:19 PM
Well the Latin Church used a different word in the Creed in Latin and that didn't seem to bother for centuries, and I expect people knew it was different then as they do now.

I would actually say that the proper meaning of a creed is what the authors of it meant by the language they used to write it, not what meaning later readers of it can interpret into it. And such interpretation is illegitimate and breaks doctrinal continuity if it is not the same meaning as the authors meant by it. Thus, using procedere to mean anything other than ἐκπόρευσις is to introduce a deviant creed.

Should have made note of that immediately, rather than a thousand years later.  It was VERY clear from the beginning that the Latin did not mean at all precisely the same thing as the Greek.  The Latin word was chosen precisely because it had the dual meaning of originating and a non-originating procession.  So if that had been a problem, it should have been noted then, not now.

Mary
The Creed wasn't written in Latin. I know, that comes as a shock to you.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Shlomlokh on May 21, 2010, 11:49:03 PM
Quote
Oh, yeah, its not the Fathers for you guys, or even the Greek Fathers, but only those who explicite endorse the mondern ethnocentric EO view on any given matter.

So... what's the problem with that? :)
The problem with that is that you cannot defend your position as being the true Church by only appealing to the Fathers who were highly hellenized. You end up in a circular argument.

All arguments are circular arguments, if you follow them far enough... ;) But as for selectively quoting Fathers, in Orthodoxy they use a nebulous "mind of the Fathers" concept. It's a terribly vague and arbitrary method, but then what is the alternative? A terribly tyrannical and arbitrary Papal system? A terribly unworkable and unusable formula of St. Vincent of Lerins? I don't like the way the Orthodox do it, but then the problem reminds me of that phrase by Winston Churchill... it's the worst way of doing it, except for all the others.

I rather like our consensus patrum. :) And St. Vincent of Lérins came up with a pretty good formula, IMHO. ;)

In Christ,
Andrew
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 22, 2010, 01:30:14 AM
Well the Latin Church used a different word in the Creed in Latin and that didn't seem to bother for centuries, and I expect people knew it was different then as they do now.

I would actually say that the proper meaning of a creed is what the authors of it meant by the language they used to write it, not what meaning later readers of it can interpret into it. And such interpretation is illegitimate and breaks doctrinal continuity if it is not the same meaning as the authors meant by it. Thus, using procedere to mean anything other than ἐκπόρευσις is to introduce a deviant creed.

Should have made note of that immediately, rather than a thousand years later.  It was VERY clear from the beginning that the Latin did not mean at all precisely the same thing as the Greek.  The Latin word was chosen precisely because it had the dual meaning of originating and a non-originating procession.  So if that had been a problem, it should have been noted then, not now.

Mary
You're assuming that East and West were actually able to communicate with each other during the time the filioque rose to prominence?
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Papist on May 22, 2010, 03:36:56 AM
Well the Latin Church used a different word in the Creed in Latin and that didn't seem to bother for centuries, and I expect people knew it was different then as they do now.

I would actually say that the proper meaning of a creed is what the authors of it meant by the language they used to write it, not what meaning later readers of it can interpret into it. And such interpretation is illegitimate and breaks doctrinal continuity if it is not the same meaning as the authors meant by it. Thus, using procedere to mean anything other than ἐκπόρευσις is to introduce a deviant creed.

Should have made note of that immediately, rather than a thousand years later.  It was VERY clear from the beginning that the Latin did not mean at all precisely the same thing as the Greek.  The Latin word was chosen precisely because it had the dual meaning of originating and a non-originating procession.  So if that had been a problem, it should have been noted then, not now.

Mary
The Creed wasn't written in Latin. I know, that comes as a shock to you.
Which is why the original version only included the Eastern approach to theology. But it did not condemn the Latin approach either. I always find it funny that EOs reject the filioque just because the Greek form of the creed does not contain it. How very protestant.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 22, 2010, 03:46:19 AM
Well the Latin Church used a different word in the Creed in Latin and that didn't seem to bother for centuries, and I expect people knew it was different then as they do now.

I would actually say that the proper meaning of a creed is what the authors of it meant by the language they used to write it, not what meaning later readers of it can interpret into it. And such interpretation is illegitimate and breaks doctrinal continuity if it is not the same meaning as the authors meant by it. Thus, using procedere to mean anything other than ἐκπόρευσις is to introduce a deviant creed.

Should have made note of that immediately, rather than a thousand years later.  It was VERY clear from the beginning that the Latin did not mean at all precisely the same thing as the Greek.  The Latin word was chosen precisely because it had the dual meaning of originating and a non-originating procession.  So if that had been a problem, it should have been noted then, not now.

Mary
The Creed wasn't written in Latin. I know, that comes as a shock to you.
Which is why the original version only included the Eastern approach to theology. But it did not condemn the Latin approach either. I always find it funny that EOs reject the filioque just because the Greek form of the creed does not contain it. How very protestant.

Catholics say that the two Ecumenical Councils which constructed the Creed were convened by the Pope, run by the legates of the Pope, and finally ratified by the Pope.   How on earth would that make the Pope a Protestant?!   ???
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 22, 2010, 08:42:41 AM
Well the Latin Church used a different word in the Creed in Latin and that didn't seem to bother for centuries, and I expect people knew it was different then as they do now.

I would actually say that the proper meaning of a creed is what the authors of it meant by the language they used to write it, not what meaning later readers of it can interpret into it. And such interpretation is illegitimate and breaks doctrinal continuity if it is not the same meaning as the authors meant by it. Thus, using procedere to mean anything other than ἐκπόρευσις is to introduce a deviant creed.

Should have made note of that immediately, rather than a thousand years later.  It was VERY clear from the beginning that the Latin did not mean at all precisely the same thing as the Greek.  The Latin word was chosen precisely because it had the dual meaning of originating and a non-originating procession.  So if that had been a problem, it should have been noted then, not now.

Mary
The Creed wasn't written in Latin. I know, that comes as a shock to you.
Which is why the original version only included the Eastern approach to theology. But it did not condemn the Latin approach either. I always find it funny that EOs reject the filioque just because the Greek form of the creed does not contain it. How very protestant.

Yes.  And many do not know the documentary history and still think that Latins could not talk to Greeks or that Augustine did not know the Cappadocian fathers through letters and could not have read their works, etc.  So it is best to leave certain assertions alone for charity's sake.

M.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Jetavan on May 22, 2010, 10:52:16 AM
Well the Latin Church used a different word in the Creed in Latin and that didn't seem to bother for centuries, and I expect people knew it was different then as they do now.

I would actually say that the proper meaning of a creed is what the authors of it meant by the language they used to write it, not what meaning later readers of it can interpret into it. And such interpretation is illegitimate and breaks doctrinal continuity if it is not the same meaning as the authors meant by it. Thus, using procedere to mean anything other than ἐκπόρευσις is to introduce a deviant creed.

Should have made note of that immediately, rather than a thousand years later.  It was VERY clear from the beginning that the Latin did not mean at all precisely the same thing as the Greek.  The Latin word was chosen precisely because it had the dual meaning of originating and a non-originating procession.  So if that had been a problem, it should have been noted then, not now.

Mary
The Creed wasn't written in Latin. I know, that comes as a shock to you.
Which is why the original version only included the Eastern approach to theology. But it did not condemn the Latin approach either.
This is an interesting point.

When you say that "it did not condemn the Latin approach", to which "it" are you referring? A council? A document?

Are you saying that a council or document addressed the filioque issue, decided not to include the filioque, but did not condemn the filioque?
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Fr. George on May 22, 2010, 11:04:22 AM
The Latin word was chosen precisely because it had the dual meaning of originating and a non-originating procession.

That is an interesting assertion.  Proof?
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 22, 2010, 11:08:31 AM
The Latin word was chosen precisely because it had the dual meaning of originating and a non-originating procession.

That is an interesting assertion.  Proof?

LOL...yea...old lecture notes...

Never mind.  If I find something in my travels I'll post it.  If not just write it off as the ravings of a nutcase Catholic  :)
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: ialmisry on May 22, 2010, 11:08:49 AM
Well the Latin Church used a different word in the Creed in Latin and that didn't seem to bother for centuries, and I expect people knew it was different then as they do now.

I would actually say that the proper meaning of a creed is what the authors of it meant by the language they used to write it, not what meaning later readers of it can interpret into it. And such interpretation is illegitimate and breaks doctrinal continuity if it is not the same meaning as the authors meant by it. Thus, using procedere to mean anything other than ἐκπόρευσις is to introduce a deviant creed.

Should have made note of that immediately, rather than a thousand years later.  It was VERY clear from the beginning that the Latin did not mean at all precisely the same thing as the Greek.  The Latin word was chosen precisely because it had the dual meaning of originating and a non-originating procession.  So if that had been a problem, it should have been noted then, not now.

Mary
The Creed wasn't written in Latin. I know, that comes as a shock to you.
Which is why the original version only included the Eastern approach to theology. But it did not condemn the Latin approach either. I always find it funny that EOs reject the filioque just because the Greek form of the creed does not contain it. How very protestant.

Catholics say that the two Ecumenical Councils which constructed the Creed were convened by the Pope, run by the legates of the Pope, and finally ratified by the Pope.   How on earth would that make the Pope a Protestant?!   ???
Just to add: the Greek form is the original form, the standard against which all Creeds are measured.  Not sure how that is protestant.

Looking at the Acts of the Council of Chalcedon, lots of things are stuck into the Latin translation which would reappear when the Vatican tried making the Councils as statements of Ultramontanism.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: ialmisry on May 22, 2010, 11:10:07 AM
The Latin word was chosen precisely because it had the dual meaning of originating and a non-originating procession.

That is an interesting assertion.  Proof?

LOL...yea...old lecture notes...

Never mind.  If I find something in my travels I'll post it.  If not just write it off as the ravings of a nutcase Catholic  :)

Proof? We don't need no stinkin' proof....we have the pope.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 22, 2010, 11:17:05 AM
The Latin word was chosen precisely because it had the dual meaning of originating and a non-originating procession.

That is an interesting assertion.  Proof?

I hope you realize I was not brushing you off...I will keep an active eye out for some verification somewhere...It is something that I have come to presume as part of my learning, and factor into my base knowledge, so I don't spend huge amounts of time thinking about defending it.  That's why I laugh at myself when you ask for proof!!

Mary
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 22, 2010, 11:18:56 AM
The Latin word was chosen precisely because it had the dual meaning of originating and a non-originating procession.

That is an interesting assertion.  Proof?

LOL...yea...old lecture notes...

Never mind.  If I find something in my travels I'll post it.  If not just write it off as the ravings of a nutcase Catholic  :)

Proof? We don't need no stinkin' proof....we have the pope.

You are exceptionally rude.

Mary
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Papist on May 22, 2010, 02:58:47 PM
Well the Latin Church used a different word in the Creed in Latin and that didn't seem to bother for centuries, and I expect people knew it was different then as they do now.

I would actually say that the proper meaning of a creed is what the authors of it meant by the language they used to write it, not what meaning later readers of it can interpret into it. And such interpretation is illegitimate and breaks doctrinal continuity if it is not the same meaning as the authors meant by it. Thus, using procedere to mean anything other than ἐκπόρευσις is to introduce a deviant creed.

Should have made note of that immediately, rather than a thousand years later.  It was VERY clear from the beginning that the Latin did not mean at all precisely the same thing as the Greek.  The Latin word was chosen precisely because it had the dual meaning of originating and a non-originating procession.  So if that had been a problem, it should have been noted then, not now.

Mary
The Creed wasn't written in Latin. I know, that comes as a shock to you.
Which is why the original version only included the Eastern approach to theology. But it did not condemn the Latin approach either. I always find it funny that EOs reject the filioque just because the Greek form of the creed does not contain it. How very protestant.

Catholics say that the two Ecumenical Councils which constructed the Creed were convened by the Pope, run by the legates of the Pope, and finally ratified by the Pope.   How on earth would that make the Pope a Protestant?!   ???
Just to add: the Greek form is the original form, the standard against which all Creeds are measured.  Not sure how that is protestant.

Looking at the Acts of the Council of Chalcedon, lots of things are stuck into the Latin translation which would reappear when the Vatican tried making the Councils as statements of Ultramontanism.
Its protestant because its the same nonsense as sola scriptura. Except for you its, the Nicene Creed alone. You behave as if just because the filioque is not spelled out in the creed it must be false. Protestants will argue that just because veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary is not spelled out in the scriptures, it must not be part of the Christian faith. Same nonsensem different church.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Papist on May 22, 2010, 03:00:38 PM
Well the Latin Church used a different word in the Creed in Latin and that didn't seem to bother for centuries, and I expect people knew it was different then as they do now.

I would actually say that the proper meaning of a creed is what the authors of it meant by the language they used to write it, not what meaning later readers of it can interpret into it. And such interpretation is illegitimate and breaks doctrinal continuity if it is not the same meaning as the authors meant by it. Thus, using procedere to mean anything other than ἐκπόρευσις is to introduce a deviant creed.

Should have made note of that immediately, rather than a thousand years later.  It was VERY clear from the beginning that the Latin did not mean at all precisely the same thing as the Greek.  The Latin word was chosen precisely because it had the dual meaning of originating and a non-originating procession.  So if that had been a problem, it should have been noted then, not now.

Mary
The Creed wasn't written in Latin. I know, that comes as a shock to you.
Which is why the original version only included the Eastern approach to theology. But it did not condemn the Latin approach either.
This is an interesting point.

When you say that "it did not condemn the Latin approach", to which "it" are you referring? A council? A document?

Are you saying that a council or document addressed the filioque issue, decided not to include the filioque, but did not condemn the filioque?
I am saying that neither the Creed nor the Councils condemned the filioque which was part of the Latin theological pardigm.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 22, 2010, 03:12:05 PM

I am saying that neither the Creed nor the Councils condemned the filioque which was part of the Latin theological pardigm.


Pope Leo III (died 816) forbade the use of the filioque clause and ordered that the original version of the Nicene Creed be engraved on silver tablets in both Greek and Latin and displayed at St. Peter's Basilica in Rome so that his decision would not be overturned in the future.

Obviously Pope Leo did not think that he and the bishops and the priests were so betrayed by the Latin language that they could not understand the Creed unless they inserted the filioque.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Papist on May 22, 2010, 03:39:42 PM

I am saying that neither the Creed nor the Councils condemned the filioque which was part of the Latin theological pardigm.


Pope Leo III (died 816) forbade the use of the filioque clause and ordered that the original version of the Nicene Creed be engraved on silver tablets in both Greek and Latin and displayed at St. Peter's Basilica in Rome so that his decision would not be overturned in the future.

Obviously Pope Leo did not think that he and the bishops and the priests were so betrayed by the Latin language that they could not understand the Creed unless they inserted the filioque.

Yawn. Just because Pope Leo II opposed altering the creed, that does not mean that he opposed the theology of the filioque. Try again Father Ambrose.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 22, 2010, 03:47:36 PM

I am saying that neither the Creed nor the Councils condemned the filioque which was part of the Latin theological pardigm.


Pope Leo III (died 816) forbade the use of the filioque clause and ordered that the original version of the Nicene Creed be engraved on silver tablets in both Greek and Latin and displayed at St. Peter's Basilica in Rome so that his decision would not be overturned in the future.

Obviously Pope Leo did not think that he and the bishops and the priests were so betrayed by the Latin language that they could not understand the Creed unless they inserted the filioque.

Yawn. Just because Pope Leo II opposed altering the creed, that does not mean that he opposed the theology of the filioque. Try again Father Ambrose.

Do you have any evidence that when he made such a big show of putting up the Creed without the filioque that he was making merely an editing statement and not a theological one <yawn>
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 22, 2010, 03:58:04 PM

I am saying that neither the Creed nor the Councils condemned the filioque which was part of the Latin theological pardigm.


Pope Leo III (died 816) forbade the use of the filioque clause and ordered that the original version of the Nicene Creed be engraved on silver tablets in both Greek and Latin and displayed at St. Peter's Basilica in Rome so that his decision would not be overturned in the future.

Obviously Pope Leo did not think that he and the bishops and the priests were so betrayed by the Latin language that they could not understand the Creed unless they inserted the filioque.

Yawn. Just because Pope Leo II opposed altering the creed, that does not mean that he opposed the theology of the filioque. Try again Father Ambrose.

Do you have any evidence that when he made such a big show of putting up the Creed without the filioque that he was making merely an editing statement and not a theological one <yawn>

Yes.  He did not condemn or forbid the teaching.  He tried to paper over the situation, by forbidding its use in the Creed, and it did not work.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Shlomlokh on May 22, 2010, 04:36:20 PM

I am saying that neither the Creed nor the Councils condemned the filioque which was part of the Latin theological pardigm.


Pope Leo III (died 816) forbade the use of the filioque clause and ordered that the original version of the Nicene Creed be engraved on silver tablets in both Greek and Latin and displayed at St. Peter's Basilica in Rome so that his decision would not be overturned in the future.

Obviously Pope Leo did not think that he and the bishops and the priests were so betrayed by the Latin language that they could not understand the Creed unless they inserted the filioque.

Yawn. Just because Pope Leo II opposed altering the creed, that does not mean that he opposed the theology of the filioque. Try again Father Ambrose.

Do you have any evidence that when he made such a big show of putting up the Creed without the filioque that he was making merely an editing statement and not a theological one <yawn>

Yes.  He did not condemn or forbid the teaching.  He tried to paper over the situation, by forbidding its use in the Creed, and it did not work.
Did he err in forbidding its use in the Creed? If so, how was he in error for doing so?

In Christ,
Andrew
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: ialmisry on May 22, 2010, 04:54:01 PM

I am saying that neither the Creed nor the Councils condemned the filioque which was part of the Latin theological pardigm.


Pope Leo III (died 816) forbade the use of the filioque clause and ordered that the original version of the Nicene Creed be engraved on silver tablets in both Greek and Latin and displayed at St. Peter's Basilica in Rome so that his decision would not be overturned in the future.

Obviously Pope Leo did not think that he and the bishops and the priests were so betrayed by the Latin language that they could not understand the Creed unless they inserted the filioque.

Yawn. Just because Pope Leo II opposed altering the creed, that does not mean that he opposed the theology of the filioque.
So yet again you argue that we cannot take the pope at his word, and thus again demonstrate the uselessness of "infallibility."
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: ialmisry on May 22, 2010, 05:01:38 PM
Well the Latin Church used a different word in the Creed in Latin and that didn't seem to bother for centuries, and I expect people knew it was different then as they do now.

I would actually say that the proper meaning of a creed is what the authors of it meant by the language they used to write it, not what meaning later readers of it can interpret into it. And such interpretation is illegitimate and breaks doctrinal continuity if it is not the same meaning as the authors meant by it. Thus, using procedere to mean anything other than ἐκπόρευσις is to introduce a deviant creed.

Should have made note of that immediately, rather than a thousand years later.  It was VERY clear from the beginning that the Latin did not mean at all precisely the same thing as the Greek.  The Latin word was chosen precisely because it had the dual meaning of originating and a non-originating procession.  So if that had been a problem, it should have been noted then, not now.

Mary
The Creed wasn't written in Latin. I know, that comes as a shock to you.
Which is why the original version only included the Eastern approach to theology. But it did not condemn the Latin approach either. I always find it funny that EOs reject the filioque just because the Greek form of the creed does not contain it. How very protestant.

Catholics say that the two Ecumenical Councils which constructed the Creed were convened by the Pope, run by the legates of the Pope, and finally ratified by the Pope.   How on earth would that make the Pope a Protestant?!   ???
Just to add: the Greek form is the original form, the standard against which all Creeds are measured.  Not sure how that is protestant.

Looking at the Acts of the Council of Chalcedon, lots of things are stuck into the Latin translation which would reappear when the Vatican tried making the Councils as statements of Ultramontanism.
Its protestant because its the same nonsense as sola scriptura. Except for you its, the Nicene Creed alone. You behave as if just because the filioque is not spelled out in the creed it must be false.

No, I know that the filioque contradicts the Creed, that's why it is false.

And I note how selective we are in sola scriptura: when we point out that Matthew 16 applies to all the Apostles and bishops-as indeed St. Matthew explicitely states conferred the power of the Keys on all the Apostles, we are told "No! No! It's not in scripture! The pronound is singular! It's only Peter! It's only the Pope!"


Quote
Protestants will argue that just because veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary is not spelled out in the scriptures, it must not be part of the Christian faith. Same nonsensem different church.

Take it up with your Protestant siblings.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Papist on May 22, 2010, 05:12:04 PM

I am saying that neither the Creed nor the Councils condemned the filioque which was part of the Latin theological pardigm.


Pope Leo III (died 816) forbade the use of the filioque clause and ordered that the original version of the Nicene Creed be engraved on silver tablets in both Greek and Latin and displayed at St. Peter's Basilica in Rome so that his decision would not be overturned in the future.

Obviously Pope Leo did not think that he and the bishops and the priests were so betrayed by the Latin language that they could not understand the Creed unless they inserted the filioque.

Yawn. Just because Pope Leo II opposed altering the creed, that does not mean that he opposed the theology of the filioque.
So yet again you argue that we cannot take the pope at his word, and thus again demonstrate the uselessness of "infallibility."
I don't see how this has anything to do with Papal Infallibility. Silly argument.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Papist on May 22, 2010, 05:13:33 PM

I am saying that neither the Creed nor the Councils condemned the filioque which was part of the Latin theological pardigm.


Pope Leo III (died 816) forbade the use of the filioque clause and ordered that the original version of the Nicene Creed be engraved on silver tablets in both Greek and Latin and displayed at St. Peter's Basilica in Rome so that his decision would not be overturned in the future.

Obviously Pope Leo did not think that he and the bishops and the priests were so betrayed by the Latin language that they could not understand the Creed unless they inserted the filioque.

Yawn. Just because Pope Leo II opposed altering the creed, that does not mean that he opposed the theology of the filioque. Try again Father Ambrose.

Do you have any evidence that when he made such a big show of putting up the Creed without the filioque that he was making merely an editing statement and not a theological one <yawn>
The fact that the filioque was part of the western theological paradigm, a paradigm through which the Patriarch of the west would have seen theology. Do you have any evidence to the contrary. <double yawn>
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Papist on May 22, 2010, 05:14:20 PM

I am saying that neither the Creed nor the Councils condemned the filioque which was part of the Latin theological pardigm.


Pope Leo III (died 816) forbade the use of the filioque clause and ordered that the original version of the Nicene Creed be engraved on silver tablets in both Greek and Latin and displayed at St. Peter's Basilica in Rome so that his decision would not be overturned in the future.

Obviously Pope Leo did not think that he and the bishops and the priests were so betrayed by the Latin language that they could not understand the Creed unless they inserted the filioque.

Yawn. Just because Pope Leo II opposed altering the creed, that does not mean that he opposed the theology of the filioque. Try again Father Ambrose.

Do you have any evidence that when he made such a big show of putting up the Creed without the filioque that he was making merely an editing statement and not a theological one <yawn>

Yes.  He did not condemn or forbid the teaching.  He tried to paper over the situation, by forbidding its use in the Creed, and it did not work.
Did he err in forbidding its use in the Creed? If so, how was he in error for doing so?

In Christ,
Andrew
This is a pastoral question. Its impossible to determine whether or not he errored.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Papist on May 22, 2010, 05:18:22 PM

No, I know that the filioque contradicts the Creed, that's why it is false.

No, it does not contradict the Creed. The Creed just didn't originally mention it. So once again, you demonstrate your protestant approach to the Creed.
And I note how selective we are in sola scriptura: when we point out that Matthew 16 applies to all the Apostles and bishops-as indeed St. Matthew explicitely states conferred the power of the Keys on all the Apostles, we are told "No! No! It's not in scripture! The pronound is singular! It's only Peter! It's only the Pope!"

I don't know what this has to do with anything. So its just another stupid argument. But what's your point?


Take it up with your Protestant siblings.

In this thread you have demonstrated that you have so much in common with them.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: ialmisry on May 22, 2010, 05:22:10 PM

No, I know that the filioque contradicts the Creed, that's why it is false.

No, it does not contradict the Creed. The Creed just didn't originally mention it.

It didn't mention it because 1) Its heretical, and 2) the Fathers aren't heretics.


Quote
So once again, you demonstrate your protestant approach to the Creed.

No, Orthodox, you know "right Faith" "neither add nor subtract," etc.


Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Papist on May 22, 2010, 05:55:51 PM



It didn't mention it because 1) Its heretical, and 2) the Fathers aren't heretics.
Nope. Keep swinging.


No, Orthodox, you know "right Faith" "neither add nor subtract," etc.




That's Why Catholics are orthodox and modern Eastern Orthodox are not. Just return to your origins of not being an ethnocentric Hellenized church.

True Eastern Orthodoxy is amazing and is much greater than your fundamentalist approach.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 22, 2010, 06:23:44 PM
Well the Latin Church used a different word in the Creed in Latin and that didn't seem to bother for centuries, and I expect people knew it was different then as they do now.

I would actually say that the proper meaning of a creed is what the authors of it meant by the language they used to write it, not what meaning later readers of it can interpret into it. And such interpretation is illegitimate and breaks doctrinal continuity if it is not the same meaning as the authors meant by it. Thus, using procedere to mean anything other than ἐκπόρευσις is to introduce a deviant creed.

Should have made note of that immediately, rather than a thousand years later.  It was VERY clear from the beginning that the Latin did not mean at all precisely the same thing as the Greek.  The Latin word was chosen precisely because it had the dual meaning of originating and a non-originating procession.  So if that had been a problem, it should have been noted then, not now.

Mary
The Creed wasn't written in Latin. I know, that comes as a shock to you.
Which is why the original version only included the Eastern approach to theology. But it did not condemn the Latin approach either. I always find it funny that EOs reject the filioque just because the Greek form of the creed does not contain it. How very protestant.

It's essentially the same reasoning behind condemning "in two natures", because in the official synodical faith of the Church, such language is technically heterodox. That you did not properly analyze the meaning of the Creed intended by its authors is not our fault, it's yours.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 22, 2010, 06:26:18 PM
The Latin word was chosen precisely because it had the dual meaning of originating and a non-originating procession.

That is an interesting assertion.  Proof?

LOL...yea...old lecture notes...

Never mind.  If I find something in my travels I'll post it.  If not just write it off as the ravings of a nutcase Catholic  :)

Proof? We don't need no stinkin' proof....we have the pope.

You are exceptionally rude.

Mary

LOL  :P
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 22, 2010, 06:28:19 PM
The Latin word was chosen precisely because it had the dual meaning of originating and a non-originating procession.

That is an interesting assertion.  Proof?

LOL...yea...old lecture notes...

Never mind.  If I find something in my travels I'll post it.  If not just write it off as the ravings of a nutcase Catholic  :)

Proof? We don't need no stinkin' proof....we have the pope.

You are exceptionally rude.

Mary

LOL  :P

 :laugh:...well...he is.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 22, 2010, 06:30:39 PM
Well the Latin Church used a different word in the Creed in Latin and that didn't seem to bother for centuries, and I expect people knew it was different then as they do now.

I would actually say that the proper meaning of a creed is what the authors of it meant by the language they used to write it, not what meaning later readers of it can interpret into it. And such interpretation is illegitimate and breaks doctrinal continuity if it is not the same meaning as the authors meant by it. Thus, using procedere to mean anything other than ἐκπόρευσις is to introduce a deviant creed.

Should have made note of that immediately, rather than a thousand years later.  It was VERY clear from the beginning that the Latin did not mean at all precisely the same thing as the Greek.  The Latin word was chosen precisely because it had the dual meaning of originating and a non-originating procession.  So if that had been a problem, it should have been noted then, not now.

Mary
The Creed wasn't written in Latin. I know, that comes as a shock to you.
Which is why the original version only included the Eastern approach to theology. But it did not condemn the Latin approach either. I always find it funny that EOs reject the filioque just because the Greek form of the creed does not contain it. How very protestant.

Catholics say that the two Ecumenical Councils which constructed the Creed were convened by the Pope, run by the legates of the Pope, and finally ratified by the Pope.   How on earth would that make the Pope a Protestant?!   ???
Just to add: the Greek form is the original form, the standard against which all Creeds are measured.  Not sure how that is protestant.

Looking at the Acts of the Council of Chalcedon, lots of things are stuck into the Latin translation which would reappear when the Vatican tried making the Councils as statements of Ultramontanism.
Its protestant because its the same nonsense as sola scriptura. Except for you its, the Nicene Creed alone. You behave as if just because the filioque is not spelled out in the creed it must be false. Protestants will argue that just because veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary is not spelled out in the scriptures, it must not be part of the Christian faith. Same nonsensem different church.

No, actually, that's not the reasoning that was being used, at least not when I first made the comment. The reasoning, rather, is that if we say that "the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son" with "proceeds" having the same meaning as the original Greek "ἐκπορεύεσθαι", in that context it is clearly heterodox; and "proceeds" must be understood to mean the same thing as the original Greek, otherwise it is not conveying the same substance of faith.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 22, 2010, 06:31:13 PM
The Latin word was chosen precisely because it had the dual meaning of originating and a non-originating procession.

That is an interesting assertion.  Proof?

LOL...yea...old lecture notes...

Never mind.  If I find something in my travels I'll post it.  If not just write it off as the ravings of a nutcase Catholic  :)

Proof? We don't need no stinkin' proof....we have the pope.

You are exceptionally rude.

Mary

LOL  :P

 :laugh:...well...he is.

 ;)
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 22, 2010, 06:33:11 PM
Well the Latin Church used a different word in the Creed in Latin and that didn't seem to bother for centuries, and I expect people knew it was different then as they do now.

I would actually say that the proper meaning of a creed is what the authors of it meant by the language they used to write it, not what meaning later readers of it can interpret into it. And such interpretation is illegitimate and breaks doctrinal continuity if it is not the same meaning as the authors meant by it. Thus, using procedere to mean anything other than ἐκπόρευσις is to introduce a deviant creed.

Should have made note of that immediately, rather than a thousand years later.  It was VERY clear from the beginning that the Latin did not mean at all precisely the same thing as the Greek.  The Latin word was chosen precisely because it had the dual meaning of originating and a non-originating procession.  So if that had been a problem, it should have been noted then, not now.

Mary
The Creed wasn't written in Latin. I know, that comes as a shock to you.
Which is why the original version only included the Eastern approach to theology. But it did not condemn the Latin approach either.
This is an interesting point.

When you say that "it did not condemn the Latin approach", to which "it" are you referring? A council? A document?

Are you saying that a council or document addressed the filioque issue, decided not to include the filioque, but did not condemn the filioque?
I am saying that neither the Creed nor the Councils condemned the filioque which was part of the Latin theological pardigm.

You are right about that. However, the filioque none the less cannot be interpreted as orthodox in the original meaning of the Creed. Such a condemnation would be more implicit than explicit.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 22, 2010, 06:35:44 PM

I am saying that neither the Creed nor the Councils condemned the filioque which was part of the Latin theological pardigm.


Pope Leo III (died 816) forbade the use of the filioque clause and ordered that the original version of the Nicene Creed be engraved on silver tablets in both Greek and Latin and displayed at St. Peter's Basilica in Rome so that his decision would not be overturned in the future.

Obviously Pope Leo did not think that he and the bishops and the priests were so betrayed by the Latin language that they could not understand the Creed unless they inserted the filioque.

Yawn. Just because Pope Leo II opposed altering the creed, that does not mean that he opposed the theology of the filioque. Try again Father Ambrose.

It is possible to realize that a dual procession with respect to the non-ontological meaning of procedere is orthodox, while dual procession cannot be in the Creed because the meaning of the Creed is ontological. That may very well be what Pope Leo III was getting at.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 22, 2010, 06:39:11 PM
The Creed just didn't originally mention it.

The Creed conveys a monarchy of the Father with respect to the ontological spiration of the Holy Spirit. To say that the ontological spiration is also from the Son is destroy the monarchy of the Father.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 22, 2010, 07:51:56 PM
The Creed just didn't originally mention it.

The Creed conveys a monarchy of the Father with respect to the ontological spiration of the Holy Spirit. To say that the ontological spiration is also from the Son is destroy the monarchy of the Father.

That is why I do not worry about not professing filioque as an eastern Catholic.  It does not need to be made explicit in the Creed to be true.

What DOES bother me is that the Joint Consultation recommends that filioque must be removed from the western Creed and NOT taught at all...to be removed from catechesis.

And I say never-mind to that for it is a truth and it should be taught, because the Creed without it is limiting and confusing....to non-Greeks... :)

At any rate I do not see it as heresy, but by the time it was finally and firmly embedded in the western Creed we were long past the point of speaking politely to one another in political terms at very least.

M.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 22, 2010, 11:21:29 PM
No, I know that the filioque contradicts the Creed, that's why it is false.
How does the filioque contradict the Creed?  Whereas the original wording of the Creed does not include the word filioque, which is reason enough in itself to reject its insertion into later translations of the Creed, neither does the Creed specifically state that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 22, 2010, 11:26:30 PM
The Creed just didn't originally mention it.

The Creed conveys a monarchy of the Father with respect to the ontological spiration of the Holy Spirit. To say that the ontological spiration is also from the Son is destroy the monarchy of the Father.
But the Creed conveys that ONLY if you read that into the Creed.  The Creed's wording itself says nothing about any monarchy of the Father in relation to the Son and the Holy Spirit.  We understand this to be what St. Basil meant when he penned the theology that shaped the Creed's statements on the Holy Spirit, but this theology is not made readily visible in the text of the Creed itself.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: ialmisry on May 22, 2010, 11:28:34 PM
No, I know that the filioque contradicts the Creed, that's why it is false.
How does the filioque contradict the Creed?  Whereas the original wording of the Creed does not include the word filioque, which is reason enough in itself to reject its insertion into later translations of the Creed, neither does the Creed specifically state that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone.
The Vatican itself forbids the Greek to have the filioque, as it results in theology even it rejects as heretical.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: ialmisry on May 22, 2010, 11:32:15 PM
The Creed just didn't originally mention it.

The Creed conveys a monarchy of the Father with respect to the ontological spiration of the Holy Spirit. To say that the ontological spiration is also from the Son is destroy the monarchy of the Father.

That is why I do not worry about not professing filioque as an eastern Catholic.  It does not need to be made explicit in the Creed to be true.

What DOES bother me is that the Joint Consultation recommends that filioque must be removed from the western Creed and NOT taught at all...to be removed from catechesis.

And I say never-mind to that for it is a truth and it should be taught, because the Creed without it is limiting and confusing....to non-Greeks... :)

The Slavs I know aren't confused (your problem), and us Semites are quite clear on it too. So are the Latin Romanians.

Quote
At any rate I do not see it as heresy,

I'm sure you don't.  But St. Photios, whom your church allegedly venerates, said, along with the Fathers, otherwise.


Quote
but by the time it was finally and firmly embedded in the western Creed we were long past the point of speaking politely to one another in political terms at very least.
You mean when the Frankish emperor forced the Pope of Rome to accept it?
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 23, 2010, 12:46:25 AM
No, I know that the filioque contradicts the Creed, that's why it is false.
How does the filioque contradict the Creed?  Whereas the original wording of the Creed does not include the word filioque, which is reason enough in itself to reject its insertion into later translations of the Creed, neither does the Creed specifically state that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone.
The Vatican itself forbids the Greek to have the filioque, as it results in theology even it rejects as heretical.
But that's merely circumstantial evidence which, in this case, doesn't really prove your point.  Need I also mention how this is an irrelevant appeal to authority and an attribution of motive that begs the question?  How does the filioque contradict the text of the Creed itself?  That's what I want to know.  I want to see evidence from a textual analysis--doesn't have to be complicated--of the Creed itself.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: ialmisry on May 23, 2010, 01:41:53 AM
No, I know that the filioque contradicts the Creed, that's why it is false.
How does the filioque contradict the Creed?  Whereas the original wording of the Creed does not include the word filioque, which is reason enough in itself to reject its insertion into later translations of the Creed, neither does the Creed specifically state that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone.
The Vatican itself forbids the Greek to have the filioque, as it results in theology even it rejects as heretical.
But that's merely circumstantial evidence which, in this case, doesn't really prove your point.  Need I also mention how this is an irrelevant appeal to authority and an attribution of motive that begs the question?  How does the filioque contradict the text of the Creed itself?  That's what I want to know.  I want to see evidence from a textual analysis--doesn't have to be complicated--of the Creed itself.

Stick "kai huios" in and it says that hypostasis of the Spirit originates in the Son, the double procession problem that the Vatican's council (Lyons was it?) muddled even further.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 23, 2010, 02:04:47 AM
No, I know that the filioque contradicts the Creed, that's why it is false.
How does the filioque contradict the Creed?  Whereas the original wording of the Creed does not include the word filioque, which is reason enough in itself to reject its insertion into later translations of the Creed, neither does the Creed specifically state that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone.

Here is something from the Encyclical of the Eastern Patriarchs, 1848   ~ "A Reply to the Epistle of Pope Pius IX, "to the Easterns""
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1848.aspx

It may be tangential to your specific question  but it contains basic teaching pertinent to the discussion.


5. The new doctrine, that "the Holy Ghost proceedeth from the Father and the Son," is contrary to the memorable declaration of our LORD, emphatically made respecting it: which proceedeth from the Father (John xv. 26), and contrary to the universal Confession of the Catholic Church as witnessed by the seven Ecumenical Councils, uttering "which proceedeth from the Father." (Symbol of Faith).

.......... i. This novel opinion destroys the oneness from the One cause, and the diverse origin of the Persons of the Blessed Trinity, both of which are witnessed to in the Gospel.

.......... ii. Even into the divine Hypostases or Persons of the Trinity, of equal power and equally to be adored, it introduces diverse and unequal relations, with a confusion or commingling of them.

.......... iii. It reproaches as imperfect, dark, and difficult to be understood, the previous Confession of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

.......... iv. It censures the holy Fathers of the first Ecumenical Synod of Nice and of the second Ecumenical Synod at Constantinople, as imperfectly expressing what relates to the Son and Holy Ghost, as if they had been silent respecting the peculiar property of each Person of the Godhead, when it was necessary that all their divine properties should be expressed against the Arians and Macedonians.

.......... v. It reproaches the Fathers of the third, fourth, fifth, sixth, and seventh Ecumenical Councils, which had published over the world a divine Creed, perfect and complete, and interdicted under dread anathemas and penalties not removed, all addition, or diminution, or alteration, or variation in the smallest particular of it, by themselves or any whomsoever. Yet was this quickly to be corrected and augmented, and consequently the whole theological doctrine of the Catholic Fathers was to be subjected to change, as if, forsooth, a new property even in regard to the three Persons of the Blessed Trinity had been revealed.

.......... vi. It clandestinely found an entrance at first in the Churches of the West, "a wolf in sheep's clothing," that is, under the signification not of procession, according to the Greek meaning in the Gospel and the Creed, but under the signification of mission, as Pope Martin explained it to the Confessor Maximus, and as Anastasius the Librarian explained it to John VIII.

.......... vii. It exhibits incomparable boldness, acting without authority, and forcibly puts a false stamp upon the Creed, which is the common inheritance of Christianity.

.......... viii. It has introduced huge disturbances into the peaceful Church of God, and divided the nations.

.......... ix. It was publicly proscribed, at its first promulgation, by two ever-to-be-remembered Popes, Leo III and John VIII, the latter of whom, in his epistle to the blessed Photius, classes with Judas those who first brought the interpolation into the Creed.

.......... x. It has been condemned by many Holy Councils of the four Patriarchs of the East.

.......... xi. It was subjected to anathema, as a novelty and augmentation of the Creed, by the eighth Ecumenical Council, congregated at Constantinople for the pacification of the Eastern and Western Churches.

.......... xii. As soon as it was introduced into the Churches of the West it brought forth disgraceful fruits, bringing with it, little by little, other novelties, for the most part contrary to the express commands of our Savior in the Gospel—commands which till its entrance into the Churches were closely observed. Among these novelties may be numbered sprinkling instead of baptism, denial of the divine Cup to the Laity, elevation of one and the same bread broken, the use of wafers, unleavened instead of real bread, the disuse of the Benediction in the Liturgies, even of the sacred Invocation of the All-holy and Consecrating Spirit, the abandonment of the old Apostolic Mysteries of the Church, such as not anointing baptized infants, or their not receiving the Eucharist, the exclusion of married men from the Priesthood, the infallibility of the Pope and his claim as Vicar of Christ, and the like. Thus it was that the interpolation led to the setting aside of the old Apostolic pattern of well nigh all the Mysteries and all doctrine, a pattern which the ancient, holy, and orthodox Church of Rome kept, when she was the most honored part of the Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

.......... xiii. It drove the theologians of the West, as its defenders, since they had no ground either in Scripture or the Fathers to countenance heretical teachings, not only into misrepresentations of the Scriptures, such as are seen in none of the Fathers of the Holy Catholic Church, but also into adulterations of the sacred and pure writings of the Fathers alike of the East and West.

.......... xiv. It seemed strange, unheard of, and blasphemous, even to those reputed Christian communions, which, before its origin, had been for other just causes for ages cut off from the Catholic fold.

.......... xv. It has not yet been even plausibly defended out of the Scriptures, or with the least reason out of the Fathers, from the accusations brought against it, notwithstanding all the zeal and efforts of its supporters. The doctrine bears all the marks of error arising out of its nature and peculiarities. All erroneous doctrine touching the Catholic truth of the Blessed Trinity, and the origin of the divine Persons, and the subsistence of the Holy Ghost, is and is called heresy, and they who so hold are deemed heretics, according to the sentence of St. Damasus, Pope of Rome, who says: "If any one rightly holds concerning the Father and the Son, yet holds not rightly of the Holy Ghost, he is an heretic" (Cath. Conf. of Faith which Pope Damasus sent to Paulinus, Bishop of Thessalonica). Wherefore the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, following in the steps of the holy Fathers, both Eastern and Western, proclaimed of old to our progenitors and again teaches today synodically, that the said novel doctrine of the Holy Ghost proceeding from the Father and the Son is essentially heresy, and its maintainers, whoever they be, are heretics, according to the sentence of Pope St. Damasus, and that the congregations of such are also heretical, and that all spiritual communion in worship of the orthodox sons of the Catholic Church with such is unlawful. Such is the force of the seventh Canon of the third Ecumenical Council.

6. This heresy, which has united to itself many innovations, as has been said, appeared about the middle of the seventh century, at first and secretly, and then under various disguises, over the Western Provinces of Europe, until by degrees, creeping along for four or five centuries, it obtained precedence over the ancient orthodoxy of those parts, through the heedlessness of Pastors and the countenance of Princes.

Little by little it overspread not only the hitherto orthodox Churches of Spain, but also the German, and French, and Italian Churches, whose orthodoxy at one time was sounded throughout the world, with whom our divine Fathers such as the great Athanasius and heavenly Basil conferred, and whose sympathy and fellowship with us until the seventh Ecumenical Council, preserved unharmed the doctrine of the Catholic and Apostolic Church.

But in process of time, by envy of the devil, the novelties respecting the sound and orthodox doctrine of the Holy Ghost, the blasphemy of whom shall not be forgiven unto men either in this world or the next, according to the saying of our Lord (Matt. xii. 32), and others that succeeded respecting the divine Mysteries, particularly that of the world-saving Baptism, and the Holy Communion, and the Priesthood, like prodigious births, overspread even Old Rome; and thus sprung, by assumption of special distinctions in the Church as a badge and title, the Papacy.

Some of the Bishops of that City, styled Popes, for example Leo III and John VIII, did indeed, as has been said, denounce the innovation, and published the denunciation to the world, the former by those silver plates, the latter by his letter to the holy Photius at the eighth Ecumenical Council, and another to Sphendopulcrus, by the hands of Methodius, Bishop of Moravia.

The greater part, however, of their successors, the Popes of Rome, enticed by the antisynodical privileges offered them for the oppression of the Churches of God, and finding in them much worldly advantage, and "much gain," and conceiving a Monarchy in the Catholic Church and a monopoly of the gifts of the Holy Ghost, changed the ancient worship at will, separating themselves by novelties from the old received Christian Polity. Nor did they cease their endeavors, by lawless projects (as veritable history assures us), to entice the other four Patriarchates into their apostasy from Orthodoxy, and so subject the Catholic Church to the whims and ordinances of men.


Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 23, 2010, 03:34:49 AM
No, I know that the filioque contradicts the Creed, that's why it is false.
How does the filioque contradict the Creed?  Whereas the original wording of the Creed does not include the word filioque, which is reason enough in itself to reject its insertion into later translations of the Creed, neither does the Creed specifically state that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone.
The Vatican itself forbids the Greek to have the filioque, as it results in theology even it rejects as heretical.
But that's merely circumstantial evidence which, in this case, doesn't really prove your point.  Need I also mention how this is an irrelevant appeal to authority and an attribution of motive that begs the question?  How does the filioque contradict the text of the Creed itself?  That's what I want to know.  I want to see evidence from a textual analysis--doesn't have to be complicated--of the Creed itself.

Stick "kai huios" in and it says that hypostasis of the Spirit originates in the Son, the double procession problem that the Vatican's council (Lyons was it?) muddled even further.
??? What relevance does that bear to your initial assertion that the filioque contradicts the Creed?  I give you specific hints as to how you can make your case most effective with me, yet you still wander all over the map.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 23, 2010, 05:31:52 AM
We are attentive to the prayers of the of the Orthodox Church which instruct us.

At Great Vespers of Pentecost, at the psalm, "Lord, I Have Cried..." we intersperse 10 stichera, including this following after the Glory be...now and ever...:

Come, ye people, and let us worship the Godhead in three Hypostases - the Son in the Father, with the Holy Spirit; for the Father timelessly begat the Son, Who is equally eternal and equally enthroned, and the Holy Spirit was glorified with the Son in the Father: one power, one essence, one Godhead. And worshipping Him, let us all say: O holy God Who hast wrought all things through the Son with the coöperation of the Holy Spirit! O holy Mighty One, by Whom we have come to know the Father, and through Whom the Holy Spirit has come into the world! O holy Immortal One, comforting Spirit, Who proceedest from the Father and dost rest in the Son! O Holy Trinity, glory to Thee!
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: stashko on May 23, 2010, 05:37:11 AM
Amen Amen...Beautiful... ;D
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: LBK on May 23, 2010, 06:23:32 AM
We are attentive to the prayers of the of the Orthodox Church which instruct us.

At Great Vespers of Pentecost, at the psalm, "Lord, I Have Cried..." we intersperse 10 stichera, including this following after the Glory be...now and ever...:

Come, ye people, and let us worship the Godhead in three Hypostases - the Son in the Father, with the Holy Spirit; for the Father timelessly begat the Son, Who is equally eternal and equally enthroned, and the Holy Spirit was glorified with the Son in the Father: one power, one essence, one Godhead. And worshipping Him, let us all say: O holy God Who hast wrought all things through the Son with the coöperation of the Holy Spirit! O holy Mighty One, by Whom we have come to know the Father, and through Whom the Holy Spirit has come into the world! O holy Immortal One, comforting Spirit, Who proceedest from the Father and dost rest in the Son! O Holy Trinity, glory to Thee!


Hear Hear! Yet again, I find myself saying "when in doubt as to what the Orthodox Church teaches, look first to the liturgical tradition!"

I cannot emphasise enough the immense importance of the treasure that is the hymnography of Vespers and Matins in proclaiming and teaching Orthodox doctrine and theology to us. Sadly, all too often, these services are not patronised anywhere nearly as much as they should. The Divine Liturgy is, of course, the pinnacle and fulfilment of the liturgical cycle, but the real theological and doctrinal "meat" which then informs the DL, is in Vespers and Matins.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 23, 2010, 07:28:42 AM
We are attentive to the prayers of the of the Orthodox Church which instruct us.

At Great Vespers of Pentecost, at the psalm, "Lord, I Have Cried..." we intersperse 10 stichera, including this following after the Glory be...now and ever...:

Come, ye people, and let us worship the Godhead in three Hypostases - the Son in the Father, with the Holy Spirit; for the Father timelessly begat the Son, Who is equally eternal and equally enthroned, and the Holy Spirit was glorified with the Son in the Father: one power, one essence, one Godhead. And worshipping Him, let us all say: O holy God Who hast wrought all things through the Son with the coöperation of the Holy Spirit! O holy Mighty One, by Whom we have come to know the Father, and through Whom the Holy Spirit has come into the world! O holy Immortal One, comforting Spirit, Who proceedest from the Father and dost rest in the Son! O Holy Trinity, glory to Thee!


Filioque contradicts absolutely nothing in this, and in fact explicates it and supports the theology that the Son is IN the Father EQUALLY eternal and enthroned.  There is NOTHING in filioque that indicates that the Son is "source."

Best you can do is simply keep asserting that filioque is heretical without supporting the contention with anything BUT assertion, and asserting it is contradictory without demonstrating it, and you have voila! schism without meaning....

The very language of the Creed in Latin supports filioque.  That fact is demonstrable.   

Can you show me where Latin has been condemned as heretical by the Greeks?  ...maybe the Slavs? ...any other language of the liturgy perhaps?

Mary
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 23, 2010, 08:05:42 AM

I am saying that neither the Creed nor the Councils condemned the filioque which was part of the Latin theological pardigm.


Pope Leo III (died 816) forbade the use of the filioque clause and ordered that the original version of the Nicene Creed be engraved on silver tablets in both Greek and Latin and displayed at St. Peter's Basilica in Rome so that his decision would not be overturned in the future.

Obviously Pope Leo did not think that he and the bishops and the priests were so betrayed by the Latin language that they could not understand the Creed unless they inserted the filioque.

Yawn. Just because Pope Leo II opposed altering the creed, that does not mean that he opposed the theology of the filioque. Try again Father Ambrose.

Oh, he was making a theological statement alright.    Do you remember his own words which he had engraved on the silver plates?

"Haec Leo posui amore et cautela orthodoxae fidei"

 "I, Leo, have placed these for love and protection of the orthodox faith."
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 23, 2010, 08:13:18 AM

I am saying that neither the Creed nor the Councils condemned the filioque which was part of the Latin theological pardigm.


Pope Leo III (died 816) forbade the use of the filioque clause and ordered that the original version of the Nicene Creed be engraved on silver tablets in both Greek and Latin and displayed at St. Peter's Basilica in Rome so that his decision would not be overturned in the future.

Obviously Pope Leo did not think that he and the bishops and the priests were so betrayed by the Latin language that they could not understand the Creed unless they inserted the filioque.

Yawn. Just because Pope Leo II opposed altering the creed, that does not mean that he opposed the theology of the filioque. Try again Father Ambrose.

Oh, he was making a theological statement alright.    Do you remember his own words which he had engraved on the silver plates?

"Haec Leo posui amore et cautela orthodoxae fidei"

 "I, Leo, have placed these for love and protection of the orthodox faith."


Totally out of context. 

His concern was the proper papal concern at that moment with the Greeks yelling in his ear.  His concern was unity...

He did not interdict the teaching of filioque.

M.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 23, 2010, 08:28:26 AM
[
Can you show me where Latin has been condemned as heretical by the Greeks?  ...maybe the Slavs? ...any other language of the liturgy perhaps?


And yet the 1054 Bull of Excommunication issued by the Roman Church formally accuses the Orthodox of heresy, of  "cutting off the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son..."  

You'll find this is the text of the Bull below.

Since then the shelves of Catholic libraries have groaned with tomes expounding the vile heresy of the Greeks and the Filioque.

The Anathema against the Orthodox for rejecting the procession of the Spirit from the Son remained in force for 900 years!!  It was only in 1965 that Pope Paul annulled the anathema.



Full text of the Excommunication
http://www.acad.carleton.edu/curricular/MARS/Schism.pdf


 Here are the accusations in the Excommunication by Cardinal Humbert and Frederic of Lorraine, Papal Exchequer at the time and future Pope.


 1. they [the Greeks] sell the gift of God
 2. they castrate their guests
 3. they rebaptize those already baptized in the name
     of the holy Trinity, and especially Latins
 4. they claim that with the exception of the Greek Church,
     the Church of Christ and baptism has perished from the world
 5. they allow and defend the carnal marriages of the ministers
    of the sacred altar
 6. they say that the law of Moses is accursed
 7. they cut off the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son
 8. they state that leave is ensouled (animatum)
 9. they preserve the carnal cleanness of the Jews to such an
     extent that they refuse to baptize dying babies before
     eight days after birth
 10. they refuse to communicate with pregnant or menstruating
     women and they forbid them to be baptized if they are pagan
 11. they grow the hair on their head and beards, and they
     will not receive in communion those who tonsure their hair and
     shave their beards following the decreed practice (institutio)
     of the Roman Church.

Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 23, 2010, 08:41:45 AM
[
Can you show me where Latin has been condemned as heretical by the Greeks?  ...maybe the Slavs? ...any other language of the liturgy perhaps?


And yet the 1054 Bull of Excommunication issued by the Roman Church formally accuses the Orthodox of heresy, of  "cutting off the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son..."  

You'll find this is the text of the Bull below.

Since then the shelves of Catholic libraries have groaned with tomes expounding the vile heresy of the Greeks and the Filioque.

The Anathema against the Orthodox for rejecting the procession of the Spirit from the Son remained in force for 900 years!!  It was only in 1965 that Pope Paul annulled the anathema.

 8)  Off topic   8)

At least with respect to my inquiry
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 23, 2010, 08:43:16 AM
Bump


I am saying that neither the Creed nor the Councils condemned the filioque which was part of the Latin theological pardigm.


Pope Leo III (died 816) forbade the use of the filioque clause and ordered that the original version of the Nicene Creed be engraved on silver tablets in both Greek and Latin and displayed at St. Peter's Basilica in Rome so that his decision would not be overturned in the future.

Obviously Pope Leo did not think that he and the bishops and the priests were so betrayed by the Latin language that they could not understand the Creed unless they inserted the filioque.

Yawn. Just because Pope Leo II opposed altering the creed, that does not mean that he opposed the theology of the filioque. Try again Father Ambrose.

Oh, he was making a theological statement alright.    Do you remember his own words which he had engraved on the silver plates?

"Haec Leo posui amore et cautela orthodoxae fidei"

 "I, Leo, have placed these for love and protection of the orthodox faith."


Totally out of context. 

His concern was the proper papal concern at that moment with the Greeks yelling in his ear.  His concern was unity...

He did not interdict the teaching of filioque.

M.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 23, 2010, 08:55:56 AM
[
Can you show me where Latin has been condemned as heretical by the Greeks?  ...maybe the Slavs? ...any other language of the liturgy perhaps?


And yet the 1054 Bull of Excommunication issued by the Roman Church formally accuses the Orthodox of heresy, of  "cutting off the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son..." 

You'll find this is the text of the Bull below.

Since then the shelves of Catholic libraries have groaned with tomes expounding the vile heresy of the Greeks and the Filioque.

The Anathema against the Orthodox for rejecting the procession of the Spirit from the Son remained in force for 900 years!!  It was only in 1965 that Pope Paul annulled the anathema.

 8)  Off topic   8)

At least with respect to my inquiry

I just find it odd that for 900 years the Vicar of Christ has punished the Orthodox by keeping them under an Anathema.  We were only released from it in 1965 by Pope Paul VI.

Even the release is odd!  Had Paul VI been informed that in 1965 we came to accept the procession of the Spirit from the Son, and hence the Anathema could be lifted?
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: LBK on May 23, 2010, 09:12:24 AM
Quote
Totally out of context. 

His concern was the proper papal concern at that moment with the Greeks yelling in his ear.  His concern was unity...

He did not interdict the teaching of filioque.

M.

Mary, as you would know, I have followed several threads in which you have been an active participant. You have long attempted to put words into Orthodox mouths (past and present - your above post being a case in point), and to assert such things as "the IC was part of Orthodox doctrine", when this has been shown time and again, to be patently false, on verifiable historical, doctrinal, and liturgical grounds. Now you're claiming that Pope Leo did not oppose the teaching of the filioque. I am moved to say the following:

It seems that you desperately need to be convinced that Byzantine Catholicism and Orthodoxy are identical in every way. I'm afraid they're not. Roman Catholicism dressed in Orthodox trappings is still Roman Catholicism, no matter how you slice it. Byzantine Catholicism is not Orthodoxy.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: ialmisry on May 23, 2010, 11:09:45 AM

I am saying that neither the Creed nor the Councils condemned the filioque which was part of the Latin theological pardigm.


Pope Leo III (died 816) forbade the use of the filioque clause and ordered that the original version of the Nicene Creed be engraved on silver tablets in both Greek and Latin and displayed at St. Peter's Basilica in Rome so that his decision would not be overturned in the future.

Obviously Pope Leo did not think that he and the bishops and the priests were so betrayed by the Latin language that they could not understand the Creed unless they inserted the filioque.

Yawn. Just because Pope Leo II opposed altering the creed, that does not mean that he opposed the theology of the filioque. Try again Father Ambrose.

Oh, he was making a theological statement alright.    Do you remember his own words which he had engraved on the silver plates?

"Haec Leo posui amore et cautela orthodoxae fidei"

 "I, Leo, have placed these for love and protection of the orthodox faith."


Totally out of context. 

His concern was the proper papal concern at that moment with the Greeks yelling in his ear.  His concern was unity...
so he is the real Father of Anglicanism, where everything, including True and Orthodoxy, are sacrificed for "unity?"
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: elijahmaria on May 23, 2010, 05:24:06 PM
[
Can you show me where Latin has been condemned as heretical by the Greeks?  ...maybe the Slavs? ...any other language of the liturgy perhaps?


And yet the 1054 Bull of Excommunication issued by the Roman Church formally accuses the Orthodox of heresy, of  "cutting off the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son..." 

You'll find this is the text of the Bull below.

Since then the shelves of Catholic libraries have groaned with tomes expounding the vile heresy of the Greeks and the Filioque.

The Anathema against the Orthodox for rejecting the procession of the Spirit from the Son remained in force for 900 years!!  It was only in 1965 that Pope Paul annulled the anathema.

 8)  Off topic   8)

At least with respect to my inquiry

I just find it odd that for 900 years the Vicar of Christ has punished the Orthodox by keeping them under an Anathema.  We were only released from it in 1965 by Pope Paul VI.

Even the release is odd!  Had Paul VI been informed that in 1965 we came to accept the procession of the Spirit from the Son, and hence the Anathema could be lifted?

You g'wan over der, and I'll g'wan over h'eer and I'll shoot at you and then you shoot back and the first one to trick the other one into standing up dies.  Howzzat?

Blessed Pentecost

Mary
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 23, 2010, 05:32:36 PM
[
Can you show me where Latin has been condemned as heretical by the Greeks?  ...maybe the Slavs? ...any other language of the liturgy perhaps?


And yet the 1054 Bull of Excommunication issued by the Roman Church formally accuses the Orthodox of heresy, of  "cutting off the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son..." 

You'll find this is the text of the Bull below.

Since then the shelves of Catholic libraries have groaned with tomes expounding the vile heresy of the Greeks and the Filioque.

The Anathema against the Orthodox for rejecting the procession of the Spirit from the Son remained in force for 900 years!!  It was only in 1965 that Pope Paul annulled the anathema.

 8)  Off topic   8)

At least with respect to my inquiry

I just find it odd that for 900 years the Vicar of Christ has punished the Orthodox by keeping them under an Anathema.  We were only released from it in 1965 by Pope Paul VI.

Even the release is odd!  Had Paul VI been informed that in 1965 we came to accept the procession of the Spirit from the Son, and hence the Anathema could be lifted?

You g'wan over der, and I'll g'wan over h'eer and I'll shoot at you and then you shoot back and the first one to trick the other one into standing up dies.  Howzzat?

Well, none of that helps us to understand why we were under an "Anathema Maranatha" for 900 years.   None of that explains why Pope Paul VI removed the Anathema in 1965.

Had we made a statement in 1965 that we now accept the procession of the Spirit from the Son? 

Was this simply  a 9-century long colossal blunder by the Pope?
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: LBK on May 23, 2010, 08:04:08 PM
Quote
You g'wan over der, and I'll g'wan over h'eer and I'll shoot at you and then you shoot back and the first one to trick the other one into standing up dies.  Howzzat?

Just as I thought. Standard elijahmaria tactic: when proven wrong, resort to nonsequiturs.  ::)
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: stanley123 on May 23, 2010, 11:36:38 PM
[
Can you show me where Latin has been condemned as heretical by the Greeks?  ...maybe the Slavs? ...any other language of the liturgy perhaps?


And yet the 1054 Bull of Excommunication issued by the Roman Church formally accuses the Orthodox of heresy, of  "cutting off the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son..." 

You'll find this is the text of the Bull below.

Since then the shelves of Catholic libraries have groaned with tomes expounding the vile heresy of the Greeks and the Filioque.

The Anathema against the Orthodox for rejecting the procession of the Spirit from the Son remained in force for 900 years!!  It was only in 1965 that Pope Paul annulled the anathema.

 8)  Off topic   8)

At least with respect to my inquiry

I just find it odd that for 900 years the Vicar of Christ has punished the Orthodox by keeping them under an Anathema.  We were only released from it in 1965 by Pope Paul VI.

Even the release is odd!  Had Paul VI been informed that in 1965 we came to accept the procession of the Spirit from the Son, and hence the Anathema could be lifted?
1. Weren't the excommunications mutual?
2. The current thinking by Catholic theologians is that when interpreted correctly, this is not an issue.
Saint Maximus the Confessor (c. 580 – 13 August 662) declared that it was wrong to condemn the Roman use of Filioque (not yet at that time within the Nicene Creed)  as follows:

"They [the Romans] have produced the unanimous evidence of the Latin Fathers, and also of Cyril of Alexandria, from the study he made of the gospel of St John. On the basis of these texts, they have shown that they have not made the Son the cause of the Spirit – they know in fact that the Father is the only cause of the Son and the Spirit, the one by begetting and the other by procession –but that they have manifested the procession through him and have thus shown the unity and identity of the essence. They [the Romans] have therefore been accused of precisely those things of which it would be wrong the accuse them, whereas the former [the Byzantines] have been accused of those things it has been quite correct to accuse them [Monothelitism]."[
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PCCUFILQ.HTM
http://www.usccb.org/seia/filioque.shtml
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filioque
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: stanley123 on May 23, 2010, 11:39:24 PM
[
Can you show me where Latin has been condemned as heretical by the Greeks?  ...maybe the Slavs? ...any other language of the liturgy perhaps?


And yet the 1054 Bull of Excommunication issued by the Roman Church formally accuses the Orthodox of heresy, of  "cutting off the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son..." 

You'll find this is the text of the Bull below.

Since then the shelves of Catholic libraries have groaned with tomes expounding the vile heresy of the Greeks and the Filioque.

The Anathema against the Orthodox for rejecting the procession of the Spirit from the Son remained in force for 900 years!!  It was only in 1965 that Pope Paul annulled the anathema.

 8)  Off topic   8)

At least with respect to my inquiry

I just find it odd that for 900 years the Vicar of Christ has punished the Orthodox by keeping them under an Anathema.  We were only released from it in 1965 by Pope Paul VI.

Even the release is odd!  Had Paul VI been informed that in 1965 we came to accept the procession of the Spirit from the Son, and hence the Anathema could be lifted?

You g'wan over der, and I'll g'wan over h'eer and I'll shoot at you and then you shoot back and the first one to trick the other one into standing up dies.  Howzzat?

Well, none of that helps us to understand why we were under an "Anathema Maranatha" for 900 years.   None of that explains why Pope Paul VI removed the Anathema in 1965.

Had we made a statement in 1965 that we now accept the procession of the Spirit from the Son? 

Was this simply  a 9-century long colossal blunder by the Pope?

I would say so. The mutual excommunications and the fourth crusade and a lot of other things were colossal blunders. Absolutely true.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 24, 2010, 12:05:21 AM

1. Weren't the excommunications mutual?


Yes! and No!


1)  The Western excommunication was hurled at Patriarch Michael Cerularius and all those who agreed with him.
http://www.acad.carleton.edu/curricular/MARS/Schism.pdf

2)  The retaliatory excommunication was more specific, against Cardinal Humbert.

The Catholic excommunication overreached itself since in the end it was the entire Eastern Church which agreed with the Patriarch and rejected communion with the Pope.  This may have been unexpected by Rome.

What is interesting is that at that time in history the Eastern Catholic segment of the Church was larger in its numbers of faithful than the Western segment.  But there is no recorded instance of any one of the Catholic bishops of the East taking a stand with Rome.   This, in my dimwitted estimation, would show that any notions of the need to be in communion with Rome and under the authority of the Pope were unknown in the Church at that time.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: deusveritasest on May 24, 2010, 12:10:41 AM
would show that any notions of the need to be in communion with Rome and under the authority of the Pope were unknown in the Church at that time.

Or would show that no one in the East held such a notion, while it could be argued to have been present somewhat in the West.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: stanley123 on May 24, 2010, 12:37:17 AM

1. Weren't the excommunications mutual?


Yes! and No!


1)  The Western excommunication was hurled at Patriarch Michael Cerularius and all those who agreed with him.
http://www.acad.carleton.edu/curricular/MARS/Schism.pdf

2)  The retaliatory excommunication was more specific, against Cardinal Humbert.

The Catholic excommunication overreached itself since in the end it was the entire Eastern Church which agreed with the Patriarch and rejected communion with the Pope.  This may have been unexpected by Rome.

What is interesting is that at that time in history the Eastern Catholic segment of the Church was larger in its numbers of faithful than the Western segment.  But there is no recorded instance of any one of the Catholic bishops of the East taking a stand with Rome.   This, in my dimwitted estimation, would show that any notions of the need to be in communion with Rome and under the authority of the Pope were unknown in the Church at that time.
At any rate, it was another one of those  colossal blunders. 
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Jetavan on May 24, 2010, 02:28:21 AM

Saint Maximus the Confessor (c. 580 – 13 August 662) declared that it was wrong to condemn the Roman use of Filioque (not yet at that time within the Nicene Creed)  as follows:

"They [the Romans] have produced the unanimous evidence of the Latin Fathers, and also of Cyril of Alexandria, from the study he made of the gospel of St John. On the basis of these texts, they have shown that they have not made the Son the cause of the Spirit – they know in fact that the Father is the only cause of the Son and the Spirit, the one by begetting and the other by procession –but that they have manifested the procession through him and have thus shown the unity and identity of the essence. They [the Romans] have therefore been accused of precisely those things of which it would be wrong the accuse them, whereas the former [the Byzantines] have been accused of those things it has been quite correct to accuse them [Monothelitism]."
So, St. Maximus wrote this at a time when the filioque had not yet been added to the Western Nicene Creed? I wonder how he would have responded to the actual alteration of the Creed?
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: ialmisry on May 24, 2010, 12:05:15 PM

Saint Maximus the Confessor (c. 580 – 13 August 662) declared that it was wrong to condemn the Roman use of Filioque (not yet at that time within the Nicene Creed)  as follows:

"They [the Romans] have produced the unanimous evidence of the Latin Fathers, and also of Cyril of Alexandria, from the study he made of the gospel of St John. On the basis of these texts, they have shown that they have not made the Son the cause of the Spirit – they know in fact that the Father is the only cause of the Son and the Spirit, the one by begetting and the other by procession –but that they have manifested the procession through him and have thus shown the unity and identity of the essence. They [the Romans] have therefore been accused of precisely those things of which it would be wrong the accuse them, whereas the former [the Byzantines] have been accused of those things it has been quite correct to accuse them [Monothelitism]."
So, St. Maximus wrote this at a time when the filioque had not yet been added to the Western Nicene Creed? I wonder how he would have responded to the actual alteration of the Creed?
Not good: he told the Latins to clean up their language, although he acknowledged the problems in doing so.  The Vatican focusses on the latter acknowledgement, ignore the former warning, and twist it into an endorsement.  This part of the letter doesn't get quoted so much by them, as above.

Some other things on this:
"Those of the Queen of cities have attacked the synodal letter of the present very holy Pope (Martin I), not in the case of all the chapters that he has written in it, but only in the case of two of them. One relates to theology, because it says he says that 'the Holy Spirit proceeds (ἐκπορεύεσθαι) also from the Son.'"

In the quotation above St. Maximos is reproducing the accusation of some of the members of the Byzantine Church against the Romans, but in the next portion of the letter he explains that the Romans do not believe that the "ἐκπορεύσθαι" of the Spirit is from or through the Son, for as he explains:  

"With regard to the first matter, they (the Romans) have produced the unanimous evidence of the Latin Fathers, and also of Cyril of Alexandria, from the study he made of the gospel of St. John. On the basis of these texts, they have shown that they have not made the Son the cause (αἰτίαν) of the Spirit – they know in fact that the Father is the only cause (αἰτίαν) of the Son and the Spirit, the one by begetting (γέννησιν) and the other by procession (ἐκπόρευσιν) – but that they have manifested the progression (προϊέναι) through Him and have thus shown the unity and identity of the essence (οὐσίας)."

Sadly, most Westerners fail to grasp the true meaning of St. Maximos' position.

The Latins fail to grasp the fact that the terms "ekporeusis" and "proienai" have different meanings, and that the former term is reserved to the Father alone, who causes the Spirit's subsistence (i.e., His hypostasis) through procession (ekporeusis), while the latter term is a more general term that is used in connection with the Spirit's manifesting progression (proienai) not as person but as energy, which comes from the Father through the Son.

Well you are aware that Latins don't make a distinction between God's 'essense' and 'energies' right? Understanding the Latin emphasis on the divine simplicity how would this distinction between Greek terms play a role in the Western tradition expressing the consubstantial communion between Father and Son first?
Yes, having been a Latin Catholic for 18 years before my transfer to the Eastern Church, I am aware that they do not make the distinction between essence and energy, which is why they do not understand what St. Maximos is actually saying in the letter to Marinus.

something rather odd in this letter: it uses the term "Romaios" for "Latin."  I don't think I've come across a post Constantine Greek document that so uses that term.

“Those of the Queen of cities have attacked the synodal letter of the present very holy Pope (Martin I), not in the case of all the chapters that he has written in it, but only in the case of two of them. One relates to theology, because it says he says that ‘the Holy Spirit proceeds (ἐκπορεύεσθαι) also from the Son.’

Dear Marlo,

For several years we created many threads on CAF on the filioque.... and we never resolved anything and we never convinced anybody of anything.

The question is just too profound for the snippety way we communicate via e-Forums.

If you want a really great and profound analysis of Saint Maximus on the filioque, then Siecienski is the man to read.....

"The Use of Maximus the Confessor’s Writing on the Filioque at the Council of Ferrara-Florence (1438–1439)."  
A. Edward Siecienski, Ann Arbor, Michigan: UMI Dissertation Services, 2005.

I dont want to focus on what doctrines were proclaimed, just the fact that according to you guys, councils can be voided.

Do you believe that the church had erred in the council of 869?

If you say that councils can be voided, why cant other councils be voided?

Huh?

You obviously read neither my explanation, nor the text at the links I submitted.

Council of 869 is robber council. There are more robber councils in 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th century.

Why did Rome considered 869 council as a robber one (pseudo) and applied 879 one until middle 12the century?
 
Quote
The following is St Maximus' Letter to Marinus as found in Migne, PG 91:136.

"Those of the Queen of Cities [Constantinople] have attacked the synodal letter of the present very holy Pope, not in the case of all the chapters that he has written in it, but only in the case of two of them. One relates to the theology [of the Trinity] and according to this, says 'the Holy Spirit also has his ekporeusis from the Son.'

The other deals with the divine incarnation. With regard to the first matter, they [the Romans] have produced the unanimous evidence of the Latin Fathers, and also of Cyril of Alexandria, from the study he made of the gospel of St John. On the basis of these texts, they have shown that they have not made the Son the cause of the Spirit -- they know in fact that the Father is the only cause of the Son and the Spirit, the one by begetting and the other by procession -- but that they have manifested the procession through him and have thus shown the unity and identity of the essence.

They [the Romans] have therefore been accused of precisely those things of which it would be wrong the accuse them, whereas the former [the Byzantines] have been accused of those things it has been quite correct to accuse them [Monothelitism].

From the text it's obvious somebody made St. Maximos to think that Latins don't believe filioque as they teach it now.

It's about ekporeusis (originates, proceeds) and proienai (manifests). Are we debating filioque now? Shouldn't you open a separate thread for that?

And how come we switched from validity of the councils to the opinions of Fathers?

BTW, I'm still eager to see the text of St. Cyril of Alexandria when he confessed filioque. Though I'm not St. Maximos, I hope it should be easy for you to present it to me.

Yet, I believe the topic is the point about validity of the counsils, and why Bishop Artemije's statement about non-existence of Ravenna Statement is valid.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 24, 2010, 12:23:03 PM

Dear Marlo,

For several years we created many threads on CAF on the filioque.... and we never resolved anything and we never convinced anybody of anything.

The question is just too profound for the snippety way we communicate via e-Forums.

If you want a really great and profound analysis of Saint Maximus on the filioque, then Siecienski is the man to read.....

"The Use of Maximus the Confessor’s Writing on the Filioque at the Council of Ferrara-Florence (1438–1439)."  
A. Edward Siecienski, Ann Arbor, Michigan: UMI Dissertation Services, 2005.


There are rare moments when I am quite lucid.


Dr. Siecienski’s dissertation is available for purchase at the link below
http://fordham.bepress.com/dissertations/AAI3201137/

Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: ialmisry on May 24, 2010, 12:44:49 PM
This is another good thread from a differet angle:
Energetic Procession (an Orthodox blog run by Perry Robinson and Photios Jones) is a good source of information on the "filioque." 

Below is a link to an article entitled "St. Maximos the Confessor and the Filioque Doctrine" that touches on the distinction between the Spirit's eternal origination (ekporeusis) as person, which is from the Father alone, and the manifestation (phanerosis) or progression (proienai) of the Spirit's energies, which is from the Father through the Son.
 
http://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2006/12/03/st-maximus-the-conffesor-and-the-filioque-doctrine-part-i/
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: stanley123 on May 24, 2010, 08:58:47 PM

Dear Marlo,

For several years we created many threads on CAF on the filioque.... and we never resolved anything and we never convinced anybody of anything.

The question is just too profound for the snippety way we communicate via e-Forums.

If you want a really great and profound analysis of Saint Maximus on the filioque, then Siecienski is the man to read.....

"The Use of Maximus the Confessor’s Writing on the Filioque at the Council of Ferrara-Florence (1438–1439)."  
A. Edward Siecienski, Ann Arbor, Michigan: UMI Dissertation Services, 2005.


There are rare moments when I am quite lucid.


Dr. Siecienski’s dissertation is available for purchase at the link below
http://fordham.bepress.com/dissertations/AAI3201137/


Thanks a lot for this reference. I'll be looking into it.
BTW, are there any responses on the statement of the Catholic bishops as I gave the links above?
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 24, 2010, 11:58:06 PM

Dear Marlo,

For several years we created many threads on CAF on the filioque.... and we never resolved anything and we never convinced anybody of anything.

The question is just too profound for the snippety way we communicate via e-Forums.

If you want a really great and profound analysis of Saint Maximus on the filioque, then Siecienski is the man to read.....

"The Use of Maximus the Confessor’s Writing on the Filioque at the Council of Ferrara-Florence (1438–1439)."  
A. Edward Siecienski, Ann Arbor, Michigan: UMI Dissertation Services, 2005.


There are rare moments when I am quite lucid.


Dr. Siecienski’s dissertation is available for purchase at the link below
http://fordham.bepress.com/dissertations/AAI3201137/


Thanks a lot for this reference. I'll be looking into it.
BTW, are there any responses on the statement of the Catholic bishops as I gave the links above?


http://www.usccb.org/seia/filioque.shtml

The US Catholic-Orthodox Consultation has issued quite a number of Agreed Statements.

There has not, to my knowledge, been any reaction from any Orthodox Churches or their Synods.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: stanley123 on May 25, 2010, 12:28:55 AM

Dear Marlo,

For several years we created many threads on CAF on the filioque.... and we never resolved anything and we never convinced anybody of anything.

The question is just too profound for the snippety way we communicate via e-Forums.

If you want a really great and profound analysis of Saint Maximus on the filioque, then Siecienski is the man to read.....

"The Use of Maximus the Confessor’s Writing on the Filioque at the Council of Ferrara-Florence (1438–1439)."  
A. Edward Siecienski, Ann Arbor, Michigan: UMI Dissertation Services, 2005.


There are rare moments when I am quite lucid.


Dr. Siecienski’s dissertation is available for purchase at the link below
http://fordham.bepress.com/dissertations/AAI3201137/


According to the abstaract of the article: "Yet I maintain that the Letter to Marinus , properly understood, provided the hermeneutical key to resolving the ancient question of the filioque , and that even in the fifteenth century there existed a school of Byzantine trinitarian theology capable of providing this interpretation. Seen as a clear explication of Maximus's own trinitarian thinking and the consensus patrum as it existed in the seventh century (i.e., the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and his eternal flowing forth through the Son), the Letter to Marinus offered the Florentine delegates, and continues to offer today, the best way of reconciling East and West and of establishing (or re-establishing) a genuinely ecumenical understanding of the procession of the Holy Spirit."
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Irish Hermit on August 31, 2011, 08:43:54 AM
Bumping this as a reference for the Orthodox on CAF who are dealing with Catholic questions about the reasons fior the schism


Can you show me where Latin has been condemned as heretical by the Greeks?  ...maybe the Slavs? ...any other language of the liturgy perhaps?


And yet the 1054 Bull of Excommunication issued by the Roman Church formally accuses the Orthodox of heresy, of  "cutting off the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son..."  

You'll find this is the text of the Bull below.

Since then the shelves of Catholic libraries have groaned with tomes expounding the vile heresy of the Greeks and the Filioque.

The Anathema against the Orthodox for rejecting the procession of the Spirit from the Son remained in force for 900 years!!  It was only in 1965 that Pope Paul annulled the anathema.



Full text of the Excommunication
http://www.acad.carleton.edu/curricular/MARS/Schism.pdf


 Here are the accusations in the Excommunication by Cardinal Humbert and Frederic of Lorraine, Papal Exchequer at the time and future Pope.


 1. they [the Greeks] sell the gift of God
 2. they castrate their guests
 3. they rebaptize those already baptized in the name
     of the holy Trinity, and especially Latins
 4. they claim that with the exception of the Greek Church,
     the Church of Christ and baptism has perished from the world
 5. they allow and defend the carnal marriages of the ministers
    of the sacred altar
 6. they say that the law of Moses is accursed
 7. they cut off the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son
 8. they state that leave is ensouled (animatum)
 9. they preserve the carnal cleanness of the Jews to such an
     extent that they refuse to baptize dying babies before
     eight days after birth
 10. they refuse to communicate with pregnant or menstruating
     women and they forbid them to be baptized if they are pagan
 11. they grow the hair on their head and beards, and they
     will not receive in communion those who tonsure their hair and
     shave their beards following the decreed practice (institutio)
     of the Roman Church.



Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: JLatimer on August 31, 2011, 10:14:36 AM
Bumping this as a reference for the Orthodox on CAF who are dealing with Catholic questions about the reasons fior the schism


Can you show me where Latin has been condemned as heretical by the Greeks?  ...maybe the Slavs? ...any other language of the liturgy perhaps?


And yet the 1054 Bull of Excommunication issued by the Roman Church formally accuses the Orthodox of heresy, of  "cutting off the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son..."  

You'll find this is the text of the Bull below.

Since then the shelves of Catholic libraries have groaned with tomes expounding the vile heresy of the Greeks and the Filioque.

The Anathema against the Orthodox for rejecting the procession of the Spirit from the Son remained in force for 900 years!!  It was only in 1965 that Pope Paul annulled the anathema.



Full text of the Excommunication
http://www.acad.carleton.edu/curricular/MARS/Schism.pdf


 Here are the accusations in the Excommunication by Cardinal Humbert and Frederic of Lorraine, Papal Exchequer at the time and future Pope.


 1. they [the Greeks] sell the gift of God
 2. they castrate their guests
 3. they rebaptize those already baptized in the name
     of the holy Trinity, and especially Latins
 4. they claim that with the exception of the Greek Church,
     the Church of Christ and baptism has perished from the world
 5. they allow and defend the carnal marriages of the ministers
    of the sacred altar
 6. they say that the law of Moses is accursed
 7. they cut off the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son
 8. they state that leave is ensouled (animatum)
 9. they preserve the carnal cleanness of the Jews to such an
     extent that they refuse to baptize dying babies before
     eight days after birth
 10. they refuse to communicate with pregnant or menstruating
     women and they forbid them to be baptized if they are pagan
 11. they grow the hair on their head and beards, and they
     will not receive in communion those who tonsure their hair and
     shave their beards following the decreed practice (institutio)
     of the Roman Church.




I think it's interesting how he accuses the Greeks of holding the Mosaic Law accursed, but also of adhering to Jewish ritual purity.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on August 31, 2011, 12:29:47 PM
"They castrate their guests." LOL! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Fabio Leite on August 31, 2011, 12:41:19 PM
"They castrate their guests." LOL! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Maybe we finally find out the real reason that infuriated the Cardinal, a guest in Constantinople. :)
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: stanley123 on August 31, 2011, 01:04:50 PM
With reference to:
 7. they cut off the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son
Is it true that the Greeks did ask the Latins in the area to omit the filioque from their creed and the Latins (at least some of them) complied with the request?
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: primuspilus on August 31, 2011, 02:48:54 PM
With reference to:
 7. they cut off the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son
Is it true that the Greeks did ask the Latins in the area to omit the filioque from their creed and the Latins (at least some of them) complied with the request?
I find it silly since the Latins "cut off" the Father from having the Spirit proceed from Him alone.

PP

P.S. I did hear something about your comment stanley.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: stanley123 on August 31, 2011, 03:31:17 PM
With reference to:
 7. they cut off the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son
Is it true that the Greeks did ask the Latins in the area to omit the filioque from their creed and the Latins (at least some of them) complied with the request?
I find it silly since the Latins "cut off" the Father from having the Spirit proceed from Him alone.

PP

P.S. I did hear something about your comment stanley.
Obviously, the whole notice of excommunication delivered by Humbertus was a disaster and a huge mistake.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: Papist on August 31, 2011, 03:51:10 PM
With reference to:
 7. they cut off the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son
Is it true that the Greeks did ask the Latins in the area to omit the filioque from their creed and the Latins (at least some of them) complied with the request?
I find it silly since the Latins "cut off" the Father from having the Spirit proceed from Him alone.

I don't think that statement makes any sense at all.
Title: Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
Post by: primuspilus on August 31, 2011, 04:12:55 PM
With reference to:
 7. they cut off the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son
Is it true that the Greeks did ask the Latins in the area to omit the filioque from their creed and the Latins (at least some of them) complied with the request?
I find it silly since the Latins "cut off" the Father from having the Spirit proceed from Him alone.

I don't think that statement makes any sense at all.


Its just a joke......if you didnt get it sorry.

PP