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Moderated Forums => Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion => Orthodox-Catholic Discussion => Topic started by: Robb on March 14, 2010, 04:37:31 PM

Title: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Robb on March 14, 2010, 04:37:31 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/13/AR2010031300790_pf.html



Vatican officials defend pope on abuse

By FRANCES D'EMILIO
The Associated Press
Saturday, March 13, 2010; 7:32 PM



VATICAN CITY -- The Vatican on Saturday denounced what it called aggressive attempts to drag Pope Benedict XVI into the spreading scandals of pedophile priests in his German homeland. It also insisted that church confidentiality doesn't prevent bishops from reporting abuse to police.

The Vatican's campaign to defend the pope's reputation and resolve in combatting clergy abuse of minors followed acknowledgment by the Munich archdiocese that it had transferred a suspected pedophile priest to community work while Benedict was archbishop there.

Benedict is also under fire for a 2001 church directive he wrote while a Vatican cardinal, instructing bishops to keep abuse cases confidential.

Germany's justice minister has blamed the directive for what she called a "wall of silence" preventing prosecution.

Skeptical about the Vatican's handling of abuse, a U.S.-based advocacy group for abuse victims, Survivors Network of those Abused for Priests, urged faithful to bring candles and childhood photos to vigils outside churches, cathedrals and German consulates across the U.S. this weekend to remind people to "call police, not bishops" in cases of suspected abuse.

But the Holy See's so-called prosecutor for clergy sex abuse cases, providing some of the first statistics about his office's handling of allegations, decried what he called "false and defamatory" contentions that Benedict had promoted a "policy of cover up."

At the Vatican, rules on handling sexual abuse were "never understood as a ban on making a complaint to civil authorities," Monsignor Charles Scicluna told Italian bishops conference daily Avvenire.

But Irish bishops have said the document was widely taken to mean they shouldn't go to police. And victims' lawyers in the U.S. say the document shows the church tried to obstruct justice.

Scicluna contended that in countries that do not oblige bishops to go to authorities with allegations of abuse, "we encourage them to invite the victims to report these priests."

The Maltese prelate said the pope had taken on the "painful responsibility" of personally deciding to remove those priests involved in "particularly grave cases with heavy proof."

Those cases amounted to about 10 percent of some 3,000 cases handled by the Vatican in the last decade, what Scicluna described as a small fraction of the 400,000 priests worldwide, and cover crimes committed over the last 50 years.

Clergy in another 10 percent of the cases were defrocked upon their own request, said Scicluna, adding that among them were priests in possession of pedophilia-pornography or with criminal convictions.

Meanwhile, the scandal swirling around Benedict's brother, Georg Ratzinger, escalated with the first public allegations of abuse of choirboys during some of the 30 years he ran the boys' choir in Regensburg. Thomas Mayer told Germany's Der Spiegel weekly that he had been sexually and physically abused while a member of the Regensburger Domspatzen boys choir through 1992.

The pontiff's brother led the group from 1964 to 1994. Previously reported cases of sexual abuse date back to the late 1950s.

Mayer charged in Spiegel that he had been raped by older pupils. Spiegel quoted him as saying that pupils were forced to have anal sex with one another in the apartment of a prefect at the church-run boarding school attached to the choir. The Regensburg diocese has refused to comment on the report.

The Vatican spokesman, speaking to Vatican Radio and Associated Press Television News, defended Benedict.

"It's rather clear that in the last days, there have been those who have tried, with a certain aggressive persistence, in Regensburg and Munich, to look for elements to personally involve the Holy Father in the matter of abuses," the Rev. Federico Lombardi told Vatican Radio.

"For any objective observer, it's clear that these efforts have failed," Lombardi said, reiterating his statement a day earlier noting the Munich diocese has insisted that Benedict wasn't involved in the decision while archbishop there to transfer the suspected child abuser.

Lombardi told The AP that "there hasn't been in the least bit any policy of silence."

"The pope is a person whose stand on clarity, on transparency and whose decision to face these problems is above discussion," Lombardi said, citing the comments by Scicluna, who works in the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, which was long headed by Benedict before his election as pontiff.

"To accuse the current pope of hiding (cases) is false and defamatory," Scicluna said.

As Vatican cardinal in charge of the policy on sex abuse, the future pope "showed wisdom and firmness in handling these cases," Scicluna said.

He said in the first years after the 2001 directive, most of the 3,000 cases came from the U.S., where dioceses across the nation were rocked by allegations by priests and systematic cover-ups by hierarchy and drained by hefty lawsuits by victims.

Only about 10 percent of the case dealt with "acts of true pedophilia," Scicluna said, while 60 percent of the cases involved priests who were sexually attracted to male adolescents. Some 30 percent of cases dealt with heterosexual abuse, he said.

How the Vatican has handled the cases since the 2001 directive provides "a very important signal to all the bishops of the church to face these problems with the required seriousness, clarity, rapidity and efficiency," Lombardi said.

The Catholic church in Switzerland has become swept up in the scandals. Swiss daily Neue Zuercher Zeitung quoted a Benedictine abbot, Martin Werlen, as saying that the Swiss bishops conference and various dioceses are investigating allegations after 60 people came forward to say they were victims of abuse by priests.

Shortly before becoming pope, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger denounced what he called "filth" in the priesthood, but so far hasn't directly commented on the cases in his homeland.

He has promised to write a letter soon to faithful in Ireland about decades of systematic abuse in church-run schools, orphanages and other institutions in that predominantly Roman Catholic nation.

The Archdiocese of Munich and Freising, where Benedict served as archbishop from 1977 to 1982, says that a working group, established last month after allegations of abuse in a church-run school, would be expanded to include an external, independent legal office.

---

Associated Press writers Melissa Eddy in Berlin and Eliane Engeler in Geneva contributed to this report.

© 2010 The Associated Press
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: PeterTheAleut on March 14, 2010, 06:40:35 PM
Robb, what do you hope to discuss by posting this?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Vlad on March 14, 2010, 07:56:47 PM
The Catholic Church is such a joke I am glad I got out of it it is corrupt to the core and this latest string of gay child molesters playing Priest proves it. I often ask myself is there one honest Bishop in the RC willing to deal with these things?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on March 14, 2010, 08:10:11 PM
The Catholic Church is such a joke I am glad I got out of it it is corrupt to the core and this latest string of gay child molesters playing Priest proves it. I often ask myself is there one honest Bishop in the RC willing to deal with these things?

We are the Catholic Church.

Anyway, don't kick them while they're down.  Lord, have mercy!
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Vlad on March 14, 2010, 09:39:36 PM
The Catholic Church is such a joke I am glad I got out of it it is corrupt to the core and this latest string of gay child molesters playing Priest proves it. I often ask myself is there one honest Bishop in the RC willing to deal with these things?

We are the Catholic Church.

Anyway, don't kick them while they're down.  Lord, have mercy!

I was just stating my belief about the institution itself. I do pray for them most of my family is RC.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Vlad on March 14, 2010, 09:40:43 PM
The Catholic Church is such a joke I am glad I got out of it it is corrupt to the core and this latest string of gay child molesters playing Priest proves it. I often ask myself is there one honest Bishop in the RC willing to deal with these things?

We are the Catholic Church.


I keep forgetting what my Priest said when I converted. "You are still Catholic just not Roman"
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Shlomlokh on March 14, 2010, 10:25:21 PM
The Catholic Church is such a joke I am glad I got out of it it is corrupt to the core and this latest string of gay child molesters playing Priest proves it. I often ask myself is there one honest Bishop in the RC willing to deal with these things?

We are the Catholic Church.

Anyway, don't kick them while they're down.  Lord, have mercy!
Amen. Lord, have mercy!
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on March 14, 2010, 11:13:59 PM
The Catholic Church is such a joke I am glad I got out of it it is corrupt to the core and this latest string of gay child molesters playing Priest proves it. I often ask myself is there one honest Bishop in the RC willing to deal with these things?

This is helpful.  ::)   Thanks for your support.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Rafa999 on March 14, 2010, 11:33:09 PM
The Catholic Church is such a joke I am glad I got out of it it is corrupt to the core and this latest string of gay child molesters playing Priest proves it. I often ask myself is there one honest Bishop in the RC willing to deal with these things?

This is helpful.  ::)   Thanks for your support.

Vlad's comment is extremely gratuitous. Let me rephrase it for my friend papist:

"The Orthodox Church is such a joke I'm glad I'm not in it, it is corrupt to the core, and the latest string of abortionist clergy playing patriarchs proves it. I often ask myself is there one honest Bishop in the OC willing to deal with these things or will the orthodox church continue to be known for its laxity on such issues (not to mention others I will not bring up)?"

 Much better no papist ? ;D

Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: FormerReformer on March 15, 2010, 12:03:33 AM
The Catholic Church is such a joke I am glad I got out of it it is corrupt to the core and this latest string of gay child molesters playing Priest proves it. I often ask myself is there one honest Bishop in the RC willing to deal with these things?

This is helpful.  ::)   Thanks for your support.

Vlad's comment is extremely gratuitous. Let me rephrase it for my friend papist:

"The Orthodox Church is such a joke I'm glad I'm not in it, it is corrupt to the core, and the latest string of abortionist clergy playing patriarchs proves it. I often ask myself is there one honest Bishop in the OC willing to deal with these things or will the orthodox church continue to be known for its laxity on such issues (not to mention others I will not bring up)?"

 Much better no papist ? ;D



The main problem with your rephrasing is that none of the Patriarchs have been shown to have PERFORMED any abortions.  Many Roman priests, on the other hand, have been shown to have molested children, so much so that it seems an epidemic.  Not that there haven't been child molesters in other denominations, but certainly not quite (we pray) to the extent the Vatican has had to worry about. 

The culture of secrecy regarding these actions is very disturbing, as is the fact that many of these priests are often moved from one parish to another where they are allowed to prey on children yet again.  These priests should be defrocked and handed over to the secular authorities, and placed in solitary confinement for their own safety (that is to say, out of the regular prison population, where a child molester doesn't have a good survival rate).  While I would be open to the idea of a molester being given as good as he gave (and may our Lord forgive my moments of vindictiveness), the fact of the matter is he is often dealt far worse in the general prison population. 
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Rafa999 on March 15, 2010, 12:12:03 AM
Quote
The culture of secrecy regarding these actions is very disturbing

Like when massive numbers of Orthodox women undergo abortions and no priests even comment on this issue, even though the world population of Orthodox is dying out because of it even?

Quote
These priests should be defrocked and handed over to the secular authorities

They will be. BUT I just want you to know something: I personally know the case of a Roman Catholic priest who was defrocked under a synod for an alleged case of sexual misconduct, and even jailed for two days.

He was innocent.

The enemies of the Church rejoice with such accusations, they relish it. The Nazis used such propaganda against the RCC in fact to try to make it "look bad" after racism was condemned in an encyclical by pius:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mit_brennender_Sorge#Nazi_response

The gates of Hell will not triumph over the Apostolic church...be it my Greek, Roman, Armenian, Coptic, Ethiopan brothers.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: FormerReformer on March 15, 2010, 12:31:45 AM
There are plenty of priests willing to decry the worldwide abortion problem, abortion is a problem that is wide-spread no matter what denomination, whether Orthodox, Baptist, or Roman.  Abortion, however, is not illegal in most countries.  Molestation of children is certainly illegal here in America and most nations of Europe.  And let's not forget, the Roman priest is not supposed to be engaging in sexual behavior AT ALL.

They will be. BUT I just want you to know something: I personally know the case of a Roman Catholic priest who was defrocked under a synod for an alleged case of sexual misconduct, and even jailed for two days.

He was innocent.


Yes, people should not be quite so quick to believe every allegation of molestation, but this goes for many people, not just the RC's.  Judgment and wisdom are needed in these cases.  But once guilt has clearly been established then correct action needs to be taken.

Quote
The enemies of the Church rejoice with such accusations, they relish it. The Nazis used such propaganda against the RCC in fact to try to make it "look bad" after racism was condemned in an encyclical by pius:

Paging Godwin, Godwin, can you report to the thread please?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law)

Quote
The gates of Hell will not triumph over the Apostolic church...be it my Greek, Roman, Armenian, Coptic, Ethiopan brothers.

If we're willing to include Rome in the Apostolic Church, we might as well throw Anglicans in with the mix too, at least in my opinion.  Their recent innovations are certainly no worse than the many additions of Rome to the Apostolic faith over the past millennium.  Just saying, in interests of fairness and all.  If you're going to be ecumenical might as well make it a fair ecumenism.  (but that's another thread for another time).
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Rafa999 on March 15, 2010, 12:40:03 AM
Quote
If we're willing to include Rome in the Apostolic Church, we might as well throw Anglicans in with the mix too, at least in my opinion.  Their recent innovations are certainly no worse than the many additions of Rome to the Apostolic faith over the past millennium.  Just saying, in interests of fairness and all.  If you're going to be ecumenical might as well make it a fair ecumenism.  (but that's another thread for another time).

Anglicanism is restructuring itself at a rapid pace, soon the episcopalian feel of it will disappear and it will be just another uniate branch. The COE does consider certain Lutherans as Apostolic by the way (and does not rebaptise them). Luther was a Vicar General you see and certain Lutherans kept record of their Apostolic succession.

Claim rescinded by poster...  -PtA
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on March 15, 2010, 12:52:54 AM
As for liberal Parishes and pro-abortion clerics, When I was in college I had a girlfriend who attended a different parish from myself. When she asked why I would not go to her parish, I responded, "Its the most liberal parish in the diocese." To which she replied, "Its not like they are performing abortions in the parking lot." All I could say was, "Well played."
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Rafa999 on March 15, 2010, 12:57:53 AM
As for liberal Parishes and pro-abortion clerics, When I was in college I had a girlfriend who attended a different parish from myself. When she asked why I would not go to her parish, I responded, "Its the most liberal parish in the diocese." To which she replied, "Its not like they are performing abortions in the parking lot." All I could say was, "Well played."

Good one Papist  :laugh:

I apologize for my zeal and for digging up dirt on other Christians. Remember: Brothers fight with infinitely more bitterness than strangers. The Church everywhere has its sinners, here's my position, the one of the COE:


Quote
Is the Church holy, even though she has within her sinners?

Yes!  Individuals who sin, but will seek purification through repentance and receive absolution from The Church will not prevent The Church from being “holy unto the Lord” she is a bride pure and trusting before Him. But, the unrepentant, by the visible act of The Church and her authority and by the invisible judgement of our worshipful God; are cut off from the body of The Church.  And, so she is in respect of these, kept holy unto Him. “Those who are without God, judgeth, therefore, put away from among yourselves that wicked person . . . ” (I Cor 5:13) And, again, “ . . .nonetheless the foundation of God stands sure, having this seal the Lord knows them that are His.  Let everyone that names the Name of Christ depart from iniquity!” (II Tim 2:19) Please remember that humankind cannot make The Church holy, neither can humankind make The Church unholy.  The Church is holy, because Jesus Christ IS the head of The Church, and the Holy Spirit IS the soul of Church.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: FormerReformer on March 15, 2010, 01:11:32 AM
Quote
If we're willing to include Rome in the Apostolic Church, we might as well throw Anglicans in with the mix too, at least in my opinion.  Their recent innovations are certainly no worse than the many additions of Rome to the Apostolic faith over the past millennium.  Just saying, in interests of fairness and all.  If you're going to be ecumenical might as well make it a fair ecumenism.  (but that's another thread for another time).

Anglicanism is restructuring itself at a rapid pace, soon the episcopalian feel of it will disappear and it will be just another uniate branch. The COE does consider certain Lutherans as Apostolic by the way (and does not rebaptise them). Luther was a Vicar General you see and certain Lutherans kept record of their Apostolic succession.

Like I said, another thread for another time, it's just something that slightly irks me, having spent ten years discerning that the Episcopal Church no longer has any claim to such succession.  But then, I feel the same way about Rome.  It's why I'm going Orthodox.  As for the non-Chalcedonians, I am nowhere near educated enough to discern anything, and willing to leave such judgment to my betters.

I will, however, say that the last nail is not yet in on the Anglican coffin, and that the current problems affecting the mainline denominations might bear some interesting fruit within the next century or so.  Just not soon enough for me.

Quote
Claim rescinded by poster...  -PtA

I have not heard of this on any of the anti-monastic sites I've visited, very surprising, it seems like something they'd jump on.  Any documentation?  If true, then I believe the perpetrators should also be handed over to the authorities.  They can be kept in the general population of the prison, as they won't be anywhere near as at risk as a child molester.  

Just to clarify: I'm not attacking the Roman church, but the way they've handled this goes beyond any good-ole-boy network one is likely to see in any entrenched authority structure.  We are all human and make mistakes, but this kind of blatant disregard for the parishioners (and children at that) seems to indicate that certain people believe themselves to be above human. We can play the "you did this, no you did that" game all day, but nothing approaches the monstrous scale of this particular problem.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: CCTE on March 15, 2010, 08:32:15 AM
It is a time to abolish  the mandatory celibacy !!!
Too much problems, too much dirt.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on March 18, 2010, 01:03:19 AM
The COE does consider certain Lutherans as Apostolic by the way (and does not rebaptise them). Luther was a Vicar General you see and certain Lutherans kept record of their Apostolic succession.

Interesting...

So your church does not consider Luther's alterations to the apostolic faith to be so great so as to have caused a loss of grace in their Mysteries?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: podkarpatska on March 18, 2010, 11:32:36 AM
As we approach Pascha,  I am saddened by the trials and tribulations faced by our brothers and sisters within the Church of Rome which are indeed grave and serious. We should remember all of them in our prayers asking that they be given the strength, courage and wisdom to remain faithful in spite of the current difficulties and to overcome them- whether they be self-inflicted by the collective actions of their hierarchy or not. Given the pious love of  the Theotokos expressed by so many Roman and Eastern Catholic faithful, we should pray to her for her assistance and intercession on their behalf in these times of need. With Christianity under threat across the globe, now is not the time (if ever there is such a time) for any of us feel superior as we must  deal with our own house and any human frailty within her structure. Lord, Have Mercy. Kyrie Eleison. Hospodi Pomiluj!
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Robb on March 19, 2010, 12:55:38 AM
I'm sure that the Catholic Church isn't going to collapse simply because of the scandals caused by some of her members.  I don't think there has ever been a religious organization in the world which has gone under because of the personal wrongdoing of those in it (If that were the case then there would be very few religions left int he world).

If I were Pope Benedict then I would seriously consider making a public apology for all these wrongdoings and start publically punishing those bishops who were responsible for them in the first place.  For instance, the entire RC Irish hierarchy needs to be axed and replaced with a new crop of bishops immediately.  Same goes for every other RC diocese which has been in the thick of these scandals.  B XVI needs to pull a Tony Quinn, "Shoes of the Fisherman" speech in front of St Peters this Easter and let people know that he means business in cleaning things up in the RCC.

If something like what I've described above doesn't come to pass soon then a lot of Catholics are going to feel very hurt and disappointed in their leadership.  I do not think that there will be a mass abandonment of RC's from their Church, but I do believe that the level of trust that is needed between the leadership of any religion and its members in order for things to function properly will be seriously impaired.  How can the Pope expect any Catholic too take their Church seriously if that Church treats them with such disrespect?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: John Larocque on March 19, 2010, 01:21:46 AM
Well, this happened four years ago, but the same issue was one of the catalysts behind one high-profile conversion. He named as his Orthodox patron saint, Benedict of Nursia, also honouring the Pope of the church he was leaving...

http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2006/10/orthodoxy-and-me.html

A bit about the late Fr. Richard Neuhaus and Dreher's faith path here:
http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2009/01/richard-john-neuhaus-damon-lin.html
http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2009/01/richard-john-neuhaus-near-deat.html
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: ignatius on March 19, 2010, 09:30:19 AM
It is my sincerest hope that Pope Benedict XVI is not tainted by this scandal which has afflicted the Roman Church and most particularly the Roman Church in the West. I would also never desire any other church to be afflicted with such sins within their own clergy. It is truly sad.

When I ask myself should I leave her because so many are corrupt... I recognize the level of personal pride which must be present to presume that I am not corrupt. I don't 'know' the temptations of other but only 'my own'. I can't look into the past and witness if every claim of abuse it legitimate. I can only pray that I never fall in to such wickedness and persevere in the Faith.

Far too many revel in the sins of others as a means of elevating themselves above their own shortcomings. Many Catholics, in the West particularly, has not taken their faith seriously for a long time and allowed such vice to fester and grow to the point that we no longer see holiness within her ranks. Is this 'proof' that she is without grace or is this 'proof' that those within her lack the will to use the graces she's been given? I don't think that any of us are in the positions to answer that question. I can only hope that I will be truth and walk humbly and in the fear of the Lord so that on the faithful day I will stand before that Dreaded Judgment Seat and be given Mercy.

Saint Michael the Archangel, Defend us in battle.
Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil;
May God rebuke him, we humbly prayer;
And do thou, O Prince of the heavenly host,
By the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all evil spirits,
Who wander through the world For the ruin of souls.
Amen.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: podkarpatska on March 19, 2010, 10:50:05 AM
It is my sincerest hope that Pope Benedict XVI is not tainted by this scandal which has afflicted the Roman Church and most particularly the Roman Church in the West. I would also never desire any other church to be afflicted with such sins within their own clergy. It is truly sad.

When I ask myself should I leave her because so many are corrupt... I recognize the level of personal pride which must be present to presume that I am not corrupt. I don't 'know' the temptations of other but only 'my own'. I can't look into the past and witness if every claim of abuse it legitimate. I can only pray that I never fall in to such wickedness and persevere in the Faith.

Far too many revel in the sins of others as a means of elevating themselves above their own shortcomings. Many Catholics, in the West particularly, has not taken their faith seriously for a long time and allowed such vice to fester and grow to the point that we no longer see holiness within her ranks. Is this 'proof' that she is without grace or is this 'proof' that those within her lack the will to use the graces she's been given? I don't think that any of us are in the positions to answer that question. I can only hope that I will be truth and walk humbly and in the fear of the Lord so that on the faithful day I will stand before that Dreaded Judgment Seat and be given Mercy.

Saint Michael the Archangel, Defend us in battle.
Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil;
May God rebuke him, we humbly prayer;
And do thou, O Prince of the heavenly host,
By the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all evil spirits,
Who wander through the world For the ruin of souls.
Amen.

The two parishes that I have been a part of in my life are both dedicated to the Archangel Michael. Thank you for sharing that beautiful prayer.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: John Larocque on March 19, 2010, 10:52:19 AM
Meanwhile, here's a couple of conservative Catholic bloggers who have their finger on the pulse of the ongoing Legion of Christ scandal and the late founder Marciel. (They're also not fans of the Medjugorje "apparitions"). Just imagine the abuse story filtered through the lens of a secretive, cult-like charismatic/traditionalist religious order.

http://catholiclight.stblogs.org/
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on March 19, 2010, 03:31:00 PM
I'm sure that the Catholic Church isn't going to collapse simply because of the scandals caused by some of her members.  I don't think there has ever been a religious organization in the world which has gone under because of the personal wrongdoing of those in it (If that were the case then there would be very few religions left int he world).

If I were Pope Benedict then I would seriously consider making a public apology for all these wrongdoings and start publically punishing those bishops who were responsible for them in the first place.  For instance, the entire RC Irish hierarchy needs to be axed and replaced with a new crop of bishops immediately.  Same goes for every other RC diocese which has been in the thick of these scandals.  B XVI needs to pull a Tony Quinn, "Shoes of the Fisherman" speech in front of St Peters this Easter and let people know that he means business in cleaning things up in the RCC.

If something like what I've described above doesn't come to pass soon then a lot of Catholics are going to feel very hurt and disappointed in their leadership.  I do not think that there will be a mass abandonment of RC's from their Church, but I do believe that the level of trust that is needed between the leadership of any religion and its members in order for things to function properly will be seriously impaired.  How can the Pope expect any Catholic too take their Church seriously if that Church treats them with such disrespect?
I think that the end of the Catholic Church is just wishful thinking on your part.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Robb on March 19, 2010, 04:56:01 PM
I never had any "wishful thinking" about the end of the rCC.  If you read my comments then you'll see that I stated that it will not.  However, I do believe that a lot of sincere and devout Catholics may be hurt and even loose some faith in the ability of the RC hierarchy to govern if these scandals are not seriously addressed soon.


Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Robb on March 19, 2010, 04:58:37 PM

A lot of Catholics like to bash Rod Dreher for his conversion to Orthodoxy as supposedly being "insincere" because it was motivated mainly because of the abuse scandals in the RCC.  I don't believe that its right to judge anyone as to why they convert.  Perhaps Dreher may have intitally come over for this reason yet has discovered much more about the OCC then he thought when originally joining.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on March 19, 2010, 05:09:28 PM
It is my sincerest hope that Pope Benedict XVI is not tainted by this scandal which has afflicted the Roman Church and most particularly the Roman Church in the West.
Yeah, that's what we would hope for. But unfortunately, the front page article in today's New York Times (March 19, 2010) seems to indicate something different. And of course, there have been scandalous reports from Tradiitional (preVatican II) Catholic groups about a previous post Vatican II Pope.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: John Larocque on March 19, 2010, 05:58:23 PM
This piece in the National Catholic Reporter (not exactly a BXVI ally) offers some insight in to Benedict's last decade in dealing with this (including as Cardinal in 2001).

http://ncronline.org/news/accountability/will-ratzingers-past-trump-benedicts-present
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: HandmaidenofGod on March 19, 2010, 09:59:07 PM
May the Lord have mercy on all involved!
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: kmm on March 20, 2010, 01:33:56 AM
Well, according to this article in MacLean's (more or less Canada's version of TIME magazine), Roman Catholic priests are actually far less likely to molest children than your average non-priest male.

http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/12/01/the-truth-about-priests/ (http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/12/01/the-truth-about-priests/)


I'm Orthodox, but I did find this article interesting. And while I've always been disgusted by these sex abuse scandals and consider it a heinous crime that must absolutely be dealt with by both civil and religious authorities (and am offended that they have traditionally not been dealt with), at the same time I am pretty tired of the secular world (because I am surrounded at work and largely in life by those who consider religion, especially Christianity, something of an abomination) focusing on one issue and one issue only. At least where I am from, many people consider Christianity of all kinds something of a disease for some reason or another. The only reason I don't hear any rants about Orthodoxy is that not many people know about it.

So while I understand the frustration by posters here on this issue, at the same time we have to watch out - we can easily be painted by the same brush (different colour of paint perhaps).
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Super Apostolic Bros. on March 20, 2010, 01:48:36 AM
Well, according to this article in MacLean's (more or less Canada's version of TIME magazine), Roman Catholic priests are actually far less likely to molest children than your average non-priest male.

http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/12/01/the-truth-about-priests/ (http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/12/01/the-truth-about-priests/)


I'm Orthodox, but I did find this article interesting. And while I've always been disgusted by these sex abuse scandals and consider it a heinous crime that must absolutely be dealt with by both civil and religious authorities (and am offended that they have traditionally not been dealt with), at the same time I am pretty tired of the secular world (because I am surrounded at work and largely in life by those who consider religion, especially Christianity, something of an abomination) focusing on one issue and one issue only. At least where I am from, many people consider Christianity of all kinds something of a disease for some reason or another. The only reason I don't hear any rants about Orthodoxy is that not many people know about it.

So while I understand the frustration by posters here on this issue, at the same time we have to watch out - we can easily be painted by the same brush (different colour of paint perhaps).
The only reason the media has any concern with sex abuse in the Catholic Church is because it has an axe to grind against her. If they were so concerned about children's safety, they would rail against the public school system where child molestation is more frequent (FAT CHANCE).
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on March 20, 2010, 02:33:13 AM
Well, according to this article in MacLean's (more or less Canada's version of TIME magazine), Roman Catholic priests are actually far less likely to molest children than your average non-priest male.

http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/12/01/the-truth-about-priests/ (http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/12/01/the-truth-about-priests/)


I'm Orthodox, but I did find this article interesting. And while I've always been disgusted by these sex abuse scandals and consider it a heinous crime that must absolutely be dealt with by both civil and religious authorities (and am offended that they have traditionally not been dealt with), at the same time I am pretty tired of the secular world (because I am surrounded at work and largely in life by those who consider religion, especially Christianity, something of an abomination) focusing on one issue and one issue only. At least where I am from, many people consider Christianity of all kinds something of a disease for some reason or another. The only reason I don't hear any rants about Orthodoxy is that not many people know about it.

So while I understand the frustration by posters here on this issue, at the same time we have to watch out - we can easily be painted by the same brush (different colour of paint perhaps).
The only reason the media has any concern with sex abuse in the Catholic Church is because it has an axe to grind against her. If they were so concerned about children's safety, they would rail against the public school system where child molestation is more frequent (FAT CHANCE).

Agreed. You know the Boy Scouts are starting to face some trouble for this.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on March 20, 2010, 03:28:22 AM
Well, according to this article in MacLean's (more or less Canada's version of TIME magazine), Roman Catholic priests are actually far less likely to molest children than your average non-priest male.

http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/12/01/the-truth-about-priests/ (http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/12/01/the-truth-about-priests/)


I'm Orthodox, but I did find this article interesting. And while I've always been disgusted by these sex abuse scandals and consider it a heinous crime that must absolutely be dealt with by both civil and religious authorities (and am offended that they have traditionally not been dealt with), at the same time I am pretty tired of the secular world (because I am surrounded at work and largely in life by those who consider religion, especially Christianity, something of an abomination) focusing on one issue and one issue only. At least where I am from, many people consider Christianity of all kinds something of a disease for some reason or another. The only reason I don't hear any rants about Orthodoxy is that not many people know about it.

So while I understand the frustration by posters here on this issue, at the same time we have to watch out - we can easily be painted by the same brush (different colour of paint perhaps).
The only reason the media has any concern with sex abuse in the Catholic Church is because it has an axe to grind against her. If they were so concerned about children's safety, they would rail against the public school system where child molestation is more frequent (FAT CHANCE).
That may be part of it, but this disgusting criminal and perverted activity is incompatible with the priestly function of being a moral guardian. 
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on March 20, 2010, 12:17:38 PM
"You must answer for it before God"

"... and before properly constituted tribunals."

19 March 2010

The text of the Pope's pastoral letter to the Catholics of Ireland, on the scandal of sexual abuse against minors on the part of priests

by Benedict XVI

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1342563?eng=y
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: podkarpatska on March 20, 2010, 01:19:29 PM
The issue, as I see it, is not whether the clergy have a greater or lesser predisposition to commit heinous moral offenses than does the general population. The issue is the response by the governing authorities of a particular discipline - be it the Catholic Church, the Boy Scouts, athletic coaching associations, volunteer academic mentors, academia etc....We Christians expect a higher standard from our religious leaders - regardless of denomination - and such a standard must be demanded. That being said, the societal response as a whole to sex crimes has changed dramatically over the past quarter century so - be it from the criminal justice point of view, the civil litigation point of view, the human resources/personnel point of view etc...That trend is a good development and the Catholic Church and all Christianity has to come to terms with the issue and address it properly. We Orthodox should not delude ourselves into thinking that we are somehow immune from such shortcomings among our own. We need to pray and work for a solution that protects all of God's most vulnerable souls.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Rosehip on March 20, 2010, 02:01:25 PM
As I see it, the Church is to be a haven of safety in an unstable world, but instead it is turning out to be a dangerous place where laity are held to higher moral standards than clergy. It seems to me the Church is more concerned with preserving its image than weeding out child molestors. Whatever happened to the concept of the Church being light and salt to the world? Maybe it's high time for the Church to allow married priests-that would surely be far more righteous than pedophilia? I truly fail to understand why the priesthood must remain celibate but clergy abuse is permitted? Wouldn't it at least be worth a try to humbly, in a spirit of caring for the safety and spiritual well-being of its members, allow priests to marry?


Post modified to make it compliant with Moratorium on Discussing Homosexual Conduct (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,25372.0.html)  -PtA
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: PeterTheAleut on March 20, 2010, 02:24:20 PM
As I see it, the Church is to be a haven of safety in an unstable world, but instead it is turning out to be a dangerous place where laity are held to higher moral standards than clergy. It seems to me the Church is more concerned with preserving its image than weeding out child molestors. Whatever happened to the concept of the Church being light and salt to the world? Maybe it's high time for the Church to allow married priests-that would surely be far more righteous than pedophilia? I truly fail to understand why the priesthood must remain celibate but clergy abuse is permitted? Wouldn't it at least be worth a try to humbly, in a spirit of caring for the safety and spiritual well-being of its members, allow priests to marry?[/color]
How does allowing for married priests combat pedophilia?  As I understand the numbers, those convicted of abusing children sexually are just as likely to be married as single.



EDIT:  Post modified to make text in quote block consistent with what appears in the quoted post
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: HandmaidenofGod on March 20, 2010, 02:36:34 PM
As I see it, the Church is to be a haven of safety in an unstable world, but instead it is turning out to be a dangerous place where laity are held to higher moral standards than clergy. It seems to me the Church is more concerned with preserving its image than weeding out child molestors. Whatever happened to the concept of the Church being light and salt to the world? Maybe it's high time for the Church to allow married priests-that would surely be far more righteous than pedophilia? I truly fail to understand why the priesthood must remain celibate but clergy abuse is permitted? Wouldn't it at least be worth a try to humbly, in a spirit of caring for the safety and spiritual well-being of its members, allow priests to marry?[/color]
I'm sorry, but pedophilia is not solved by marriage. As a close member of my family was molested by a married man, I can assure you that a wife does not remove these terrible temptations that pedophiles encounter.

Furthermore, if it were simply a matter of sex, the priests would have affairs with women, not molest children.

In the Orthodox Church a married man has the option of being ordained, but a man does not have to be married to be ordained. Are we to suddenly be wary of our Hiermonks because they have chosen to be chaste? No!

It is not that the Catholic Church has a higher percentage of pedophiles than the rest of society (as has already been pointed out), it is how the Church has chosen to handle the pedophiles that is the issue.

Rather than throwing stones as to how "we are so much better than the Catholic Church because we allow married men to become priests," we should be praying for the abusers, the victims, for everyone involved. The wounds of sexual abuse run deep; sometimes for generations.

Also, if anyone spends some time on pokrov.org, you will see that abuse has occurred in the Orthodox Church.

Rather than criticize, let us educate ourselves to be aware of the signs of abuse, help those who have been abused, and have the courage to report to the authorities the abusers.

May the Lord have mercy on us all!



Post modified only to make quote block consistent with what now appears in the quoted post  -PtA
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Rosehip on March 20, 2010, 02:45:21 PM
I agree, and am horrified by the cases I've read about in the Orthodox Church. It seems many of these people are simply not truly born again, if they are hurting young children in this manner. I have been horrified and shocked by the sexual abuse that goes in monasteries and am appalled that the young men don't just leave and report them, or refuse to participate-fleeing as did Joseph of old from Potipher's wife-it makes me wonder how a christian who has read the Bible would allow themselves to participate in such sin.

I think there needs to be greater accountibilty and parents need to be more vigilant about allowing their children to be alone and unsupervised with priests or any other outside party.



Post modified to make compliant with Moratorium  -PtA
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on March 20, 2010, 03:00:16 PM
The issue, as I see it, is not whether the clergy have a greater or lesser predisposition to commit heinous moral offenses than does the general population. The issue is the response by the governing authorities of a particular discipline - be it the Catholic Church, the Boy Scouts, athletic coaching associations, volunteer academic mentors, academia etc....We Christians expect a higher standard from our religious leaders - regardless of denomination - and such a standard must be demanded. That being said, the societal response as a whole to sex crimes has changed dramatically over the past quarter century so - be it from the criminal justice point of view, the civil litigation point of view, the human resources/personnel point of view etc...That trend is a good development and the Catholic Church and all Christianity has to come to terms with the issue and address it properly. We Orthodox should not delude ourselves into thinking that we are somehow immune from such shortcomings among our own. We need to pray and work for a solution that protects all of God's most vulnerable souls.

This trend in the media doesn't have much to do with public accountability and high moral standards for Christians by the outside secular societies. These stories are what most other news stories are about these days: drama and sensationalism. People love the thrill of a dirty story, and this is the stuff chatty gossips have wet dreams about. 

"What an opportunity to be shocked and horrified! What an opportunity to excuse myself from the antiquated moral standards of a dying faith! What a chance for me to finally triumph over my nagging conscience and excuse myself from the pain of deification! I'm so much better than those holier-than-thou robe-clad monsters!"

Schadenfreude!

I'm not saying that public outrage and accountability isn't a good thing, all I am saying is that most people simply relish the opportunity to shake their heads and wag their fingers. Whenever a story like this is sandwiched between No 'Star Search' deal for Paula Abdul (http://marquee.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/19/report-no-star-search-deal-for-paula-abdul/?hpt=Sbin) and Joan Jett has advice for Lady Gaga (http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/Music/03/19/jett.currie.lady.gaga.ppl/index.html?hpt=Sbin), I highly doubt that this is brought to us for little more than our own entertainment.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: NorthernPines on March 20, 2010, 05:59:41 PM

It is not that the Catholic Church has a higher percentage of pedophiles than the rest of society (as has already been pointed out),

Maybe not, but I think a decent argument could be made that the Catholic Church has a higher percentage of pedophiles in positions of authority and power than the rest of society has.

I'm not trying to bash the Catholic Church, but just think sometimes as Christians, particularly within circles of Christianity that have most of their beliefs/leadership in common (Catholic-Orthodox) we are way to quick to rationalize or in this case downplay issues as serious as these are. The idea that the abuse problem is SOLVED by ending celibacy is absurd, I agree.  However the counter argument that celibacy has NOTHING to do with the abuse I believe is equally absurd. I think the demands of celibacy attract a certain "type" of individual to the priesthood. Not because celibacy is evil, but just due to the fact how the system currently works, and protects people.


Quote
Rather than throwing stones as to how "we are so much better than the Catholic Church because we allow married men to become priests," we should be praying for the abusers, the victims, for everyone involved. The wounds of sexual abuse run deep; sometimes for generations. Also, if anyone spends some time on pokrov.org, you will see that abuse has occurred in the Orthodox Church.

Pokrov is just the tip of the iceberg I fear. Indeed, Orthodoxy is certainly NOT free from ANY of these issues at all. However there are a lot more celibate priests/hieromonks and Bishops in Orthodoxy than we sometimes believe or are lead to believe. Again, I'm not blaming celibacy, monasticism or anything like that, but I do think there is some relationship between celibacy and the abuse both in the RCC, and in EOy. Not that celibacy CAUSES a person to sin in this manner. I would never say that. But that the structure of the system attracts people prone to this sin. I don't want to do away with monasteries, nor do I hate celibate priests, or the Catholic Church, but I think the Pope's stance that the 2 issues are essentially totally unrelated is pure fantasy. Maybe because he is deep down optimistic about human nature, and I'm pessimistic. So maybe it's just a clash of world views. I dunno.


As for EOy, there are probably a lot more sexually abusive priests in Orthodoxy than anyone would probably imagine. But the secretive fashion, protection of one's friends and centrality of power all makes this appear non existent to most Orthodox. Just as it appeared non-existent in the Catholic Church until about 15 years ago when these stories started to have the light of day cast upon them. If and when this light is cast upon the Orthodox Church, I think people will be shocked by how deep this problem runs. Maybe in the end it's just a power issue and really isn't about "sex" at all. Why do they do it? Why do people in power and authority do anything of this sort? probably because they feel they can get away with it. And until the Church (both East, West, Catholic-Orthodox, and even certain Protestant Churches) open up their ranks to the light of day, the problem won't go away.

I fear though all this will just take another 100 yr sweeping under the rug. By then though, I don't imagine the Church being as credible or as influential as it is now. But as I said i'm a pessimist so it's probably not wise to listen to me...LOL!



Post modified to make compliant with Moratorium on Discussing Homosexual Conduct (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,25372.0.html)  -PtA
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: NorthernPines on March 20, 2010, 06:14:38 PM
The Catholic Church is such a joke I am glad I got out of it it is corrupt to the core and this latest string of gay child molesters playing Priest proves it. I often ask myself is there one honest Bishop in the RC willing to deal with these things?

If you believe the Orthodox Church ISN'T corrupt to it's core then can I have a pair of your rose colored glasses?

Orthodoxy might not have exactly the same problems as the Catholic Church does, (though there is a lot of overlap), but it's problems, corruption and sinfulness is not any "better" than Rome's. As far as honest Bishops, the same could be said of our Church too. Where are they? Every time we find one they either are "convinced" to retire, or in the end the power gets to them and they end up no better than anyone else.

IN their defense, Bishops both RC and EO have a hard job, made harder by their own temptations and by the amount of power that is thrust upon them. The Church is so big at this point, that it might just be impractical for any one man to take on the role of a Bishop. In the end, it might actually be smarter, more merciful, and in fact better for the Church if Bishops weren't in charge of a Diocese for what amounts to a lifetime, which is just too much time IMO for man to be given that power.

Unless we've got a boatload of Hobbits somewhere more resistant to the lure and power, we've got to come up with some other (improved, but not drastically altered) mechanism/system of structuring and governing the Church. (but that's a different issue and totally Off Topic)

I find myself in a weird place of criticizing the Catholic Church on their handling and diagnosis of these issues, but also defending it because there is no easy fix.

But in the end don't be fooled, just because EOy hasn't had this stuff plastered on CNN doesn't mean it doesn't exist and happen, even on a regular basis.



Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on March 20, 2010, 10:15:50 PM
But in the end don't be fooled, just because EOy hasn't had this stuff plastered on CNN doesn't mean it doesn't exist and happen, even on a regular basis.
This is just a question. Among married Eastern Orthodox priests, would you say that the number of child abuse cases is roughly comparable to the number found in the celibate Catholic clergy or different? I ask this question, because when Catholics talk about celibacy and the priesthood, they invariably bring up the statistics for the married Evangelical or Jewish clergy and claim that the figures are roughly comparable or even more for the married clergy of some of these groups.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Robb on March 20, 2010, 11:32:06 PM
Text deleted by moderator to make post compliant with Moratorium on Discussing Homosexual Conduct (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,25372.0.html)  -PtA

While I do not believe that celibacy is a major factor in pedophilia, I still think that the RCC's demands that all her priest embrace this lifestyle goes against human nature.  Celibacy is an extremely difficult callingwhich can only be embraced effectively by those who are very spiritually advanced.  Monks and Nuns live in communities of constant prayer, self discipline, and contemplation which help them follow a celibate lifestyle with less difficulty then those who must live and work in a more wordily environment, like parish priest.  Furthermore, a wife and children are not a hindrance to a priest being able to relate to and serve his people, but it is an extremely humanizing factor in helping the clergy to understand and communicate more effectively with his flock.  The priest wife is also a way for women to relate more closely to their priest.  Also, being married and having to raise kids also helps the priest understand what we the laity have to go through in our daily lives and maybe make him more sympathetic to family issues.


(http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/Themes/Lent2010/images/warnwarn.gif) You have been warned before of the Moratorium on Discussing Homosexual Conduct (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,25372.0.html).  This formal warning will therefore last for the next three weeks.  If you continue to violate the moratorium, you will incur harsher sanctions upon yourself, to include post moderation, muting, or banning.

If you think my action wrong, feel free to appeal it via private message to one of the global moderators, Fr. George or Veniamin.

- PeterTheAleut
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on March 21, 2010, 02:48:57 AM
While I do not believe that celibacy is a major factor in pedophilia, I still think that the RCC's demands that all her priest embrace this lifestyle goes against human nature.  Celibacy is an extremely difficult callingwhich can only be embraced effectively by those who are very spiritually advanced.  Monks and Nuns live in communities of constant prayer, self discipline, and contemplation which help them follow a celibate lifestyle with less difficulty then those who must live and work in a more wordily environment, like parish priest.  Furthermore, a wife and children are not a hindrance to a priest being able to relate to and serve his people, but it is an extremely humanizing factor in helping the clergy to understand and communicate more effectively with his flock.  The priest wife is also a way for women to relate more closely to their priest.  Also, being married and having to raise kids also helps the priest understand what we the laity have to go through in our daily lives and maybe make him more sympathetic to family issues.
Yes. What you say here makes a lot of sense. But are there statistics or data which show that married E. Orthodox clergy are much less likely to have this problem with abusing children, then the celibate Catholic clergy? Like I said above, some Catholics like to trot out statistics which apparently show that the problem is more severe among the married Evangelical or married Jewish clergy than among the celibate Catholic clergy.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: FormerReformer on March 21, 2010, 02:58:16 AM
But are there statistics or data which show that married E. Orthodox clergy are much less likely to have this problem with abusing children, then the celibate Catholic clergy? Like I said above, some Catholics like to trot out statistics which apparently show that the problem is more severe among the married Evangelical or married Jewish clergy than among the celibate Catholic clergy.

On this note, I would refer to Mark Twain, who told us "There are three types of lies: Lies, d***ed lies, and statistics".

Fact: 90% of statistics are made up on the spot  :P
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: NorthernPines on March 21, 2010, 11:32:24 AM
But in the end don't be fooled, just because EOy hasn't had this stuff plastered on CNN doesn't mean it doesn't exist and happen, even on a regular basis.
This is just a question. Among married Eastern Orthodox priests, would you say that the number of child abuse cases is roughly comparable to the number found in the celibate Catholic clergy or different?

Briefly, I think at least according to known reports from sites like POKROV and other others, that child abuse is higher among celibate clergy than among married clergy. But it is NOT non existent among married clergy. But I do think the evidence bears out the fact a systemic issue within the celibate ranks in both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.


See my PM for additional thoughts....
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on March 21, 2010, 05:32:32 PM
Fact: 90% of statistics are made up on the spot  :P
Perhaps then you just made up that statistic on the spot with nothing to back it up?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: FormerReformer on March 21, 2010, 06:13:36 PM
Fact: 90% of statistics are made up on the spot  :P
Perhaps then you just made up that statistic on the spot with nothing to back it up?

Who, me?  :angel:

The point being always keep in mind that statistics can be and often are modified to reflect the bias of the one reporting the statistic.  The Roman Church will give statistical evidence stating one thing, while Protestants and Orthodox will report statistics to show things in their light.  Secularists will have their own axe to grind, so will issue statistics to condemn all clergy. 

The big question is, of course, whether or not clergy of any stripe are more or less likely to be involved in child molestation than males of any other profession.  But good luck finding non-biased reporting on that.

But, as far as the scandal itself goes, it definitely seems as if the Roman Church goes to greater lengths to gloss over or downright cover-up these incidents.  This does not indicate that clerical celibacy is the issue, of course.  It could be that since Rome has a more massive and centralized hierarchical bureaucracy than others it becomes easier to give in to a "good ole boy" mentality.  Government, even church government, will go to great lengths to protect their own.

And I think this is the main issue.  Child abuse will unfortunately happen, because man is sinful; and no one has yet figured out a way to effectively prevent any criminal action, let alone this one.  But how we react to the child abuse is of paramount importance.  Who is it we are worried about the most, the child or the priest?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: podkarpatska on March 21, 2010, 09:04:27 PM
Fact: 90% of statistics are made up on the spot  :P
Perhaps then you just made up that statistic on the spot with nothing to back it up?

Who, me?  :angel:

The point being always keep in mind that statistics can be and often are modified to reflect the bias of the one reporting the statistic.  The Roman Church will give statistical evidence stating one thing, while Protestants and Orthodox will report statistics to show things in their light.  Secularists will have their own axe to grind, so will issue statistics to condemn all clergy. 

The big question is, of course, whether or not clergy of any stripe are more or less likely to be involved in child molestation than males of any other profession.  But good luck finding non-biased reporting on that.

But, as far as the scandal itself goes, it definitely seems as if the Roman Church goes to greater lengths to gloss over or downright cover-up these incidents.  This does not indicate that clerical celibacy is the issue, of course.  It could be that since Rome has a more massive and centralized hierarchical bureaucracy than others it becomes easier to give in to a "good ole boy" mentality.  Government, even church government, will go to great lengths to protect their own.

And I think this is the main issue.  Child abuse will unfortunately happen, because man is sinful; and no one has yet figured out a way to effectively prevent any criminal action, let alone this one.  But how we react to the child abuse is of paramount importance.  Who is it we are worried about the most, the child or the priest?

This post hits the nail squarely on the head and my instinctive answer is that we must be worried about both innocent children and the wrongly accused professional. However, in our desire to protect the wrongfully accused, we have to ensure that we are not providing a safe haven for offenders and predators in which to take refuge.I have a few thoughts on the subject and I apologize if I ramble a bit.

Criminal justice experts generally assert that pedophilia is, to a large extent, a crime of opportunity and planning. The American laws requiring the registration of sexual offenders and the limitations on where they may reside or visit are premised upon that assertion in order to give them a legally sustainable basis. In order to protect children, we have identified a number of professions in which members must be vetted prior to being hired. (For example, in most  states this includes child care workers, teachers, coaches....) In many states, religious organizations have sought and obtained exclusions from such mandatory review processes as well as laws requiring mandatory reporting of suspected child neglect and abuse to authorities. ( Professions required to report suspected abuse include teachers, doctors, health care professionals and many others. Clergy are typically exempted.)  I suggest that we need to revisit those exclusions and that proactively, churches should propose ways to include church functions under the umbrella of such laws(with appropriate confidentiality exceptions.)

Careers which present offenders, or would-be future offenders, with the opportunity to be around and gain the trust of children are attractive to pedophiles. (I am talking here about non-relative based offenders, relatives can gain and abuse trust more easily from vulnerable children in their care.) The clergy is not the only career which presents such 'opportunities' to offend, but given the moral status and expectations of clergy, the public is more deeply offended when the failings of a clergyman are exposed.

Other professions certainly have their share of offenders. The medical profession, for example is not immune from such offenders. Earlier this year there was an incredible case of a pediatrician in Delaware who is accused of molesting children over a period of many years while maintaining the appearance of being a pillar of the community. In my area there is a pending case involving a retired Episcopalian priest, a man around whom rumors circulated for years, before his Bishop retired him from active ministry after allowing him to move several times between dioceses. Last year there was a high profile case involving a gymnastics coach for a travelling girls team which involved so-called 'sexting' and under-age sex as well as several cases involving high school teachers and under-age children. I am sure that all posters could relate similar stories from their local media.

All church organizations should establish easily understandable, and published, rules and regulations regarding the screening of persons pursuing vocations, including (where permitted by state law) the use of the sexual offender clearance process through the various state agencies compiling data about known offenders as well as psychological tests and background checks. Volunteers should be vetted with some form of reasonable background checks - even for small congregations.  When allegations of abuse or misconduct are reported to parish or diocesan officers, they must be treated with respect and an initial determination, based upon existing, written standards and conducted by an individual or individuals at least minimally trained for such purposes, should be made to first determine whether the allegations are credible or not.

It is a difficult balancing act to protect the class of potential or actual victims and at the same time to protect the names and reputations of potentially innocent men and women. However, it is a task that we must undertake. It is all the more difficult for us as Christians in that we are torn between our obligation to 'hate the sin, but love the sinner' and our core belief in redemption and forgiveness.

It is not an easy dilemma.

Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on April 16, 2010, 07:39:27 AM
DECLARATION OF THE PRESS OFFICE DIRECTOR

http://visnews-en.blogspot.com/2010/04/declaration-of-press-office-director.html

VATICAN CITY, 15 APRIL 2010 (VIS) - The Holy See Press Office Director, Fr. Federico Lombardi, S.J., made the following declaration yesterday afternoon:

  "Ecclesial authorities do not consider it within their competency to make general affirmations of a specifically psychological or medical character and therefore naturally must refer to the study of specialists and the inquiries they carry out."

  "Concerning the competency of ecclesial authorities, in the area of the causes of abuse of minors on the part of priests, which the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith has faced in recent years, the statistical data related by Msgr. Charles J. Scicluna states that in 10% of cases of pedophilia, in the strict use of the term, 90% should rather be defined as ephebophilia (that is, with adolescents). Further, 60% of those are of a same sex and 30% of a heterosexual character. This, of course, references the problems of abuse on the part of priests and not of the population in general."
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: podkarpatska on April 17, 2010, 10:44:05 AM
I have been following this sad story for a number of years here in the United States. I take no joy from the disorder within my brother's house. As the son, brother and nephew of Orthodox priests I can tell you that the damage that this continuing scandal has caused to the station of all clergy and honest men and women of faith who work with church related entities and children has been enormous and made their work all the more difficult on a daily basis.

We should all earnestly pray that the Holy Spirit calm the turbulent waters and offer His Guidance to the Pope and the Bishops of the Roman Church as they struggle to come to grips with both the reality and the perception of the pedophile problem.

The American civil liberties scholar and trial attorney Alan Dershowitz recently posted an interesting defense so to speak of the Catholic Church and her problems. Among his more salient points were:

"The first tradition involves confidentiality, particularly not exclusively the confidentiality of the priest with regard to the penitent. But there is also a wider spread tradition of confidentiality within the Church hierarchy itself.

Second, there is the tradition of forgiveness. Those of us outside the Church often think, perhaps, that the Church goes too far in forgiving. I was shocked when the previous Pope immediately forgave the man who tried to assassinate him. But this episode and other demonstrate that the tradition of forgiveness is all too real.

Third, there is the tradition of the Church regarding itself as a state. The Holy See is a sovereign state. The Catholic Church is not big on the separation of church and state, as are various Protestant denominations. The Catholic Church, like Orthodox Judaism, believes that matters affecting the faithful should generally be dealt within the church, without recourse to secular authorities.

Fourth, the Vatican prides itself on moving slowly and in seeing the time frame of life quite differently than the quick pace at which secular societies respond to the crisis of the day.

Fifth, the Catholic Church has long had a tradition of internal due process. Cannon Law provides for scrupulous methods of proof. The concept of the "devil's advocate" derives from the Church's effort to be certain that every "t" is crossed and every "i" is dotted, even when it comes to selecting saints....

....It is obvious that despite Pope Benedict's good efforts, more must be done, and not only by the Catholic Church but by all institutions that have experienced hierarchical sexual exploitation. They must create structures that assure prompt reporting, a zero-tolerance policy, and quick action, so long as these processes are consistent with due process and fairness, not only to alleged victims but to the accused as well. It's easy to forget, in the face of real victims with real complaints, that there have also been false accusations as well. Processes must be put in place that distinguish true complaints from false ones.

Most importantly, this tragedy should not be used as an excuse to attack a large and revered institution that does much good throughout the world. Blame must be placed with precision and praise should be given with precision as well. The eleventh Commandment, thou shalt not stereotype, must never be forgotten.  "
http://afranciscanabroad.com/2010/04/10/alan-dershowitz-on-the-sex-abuse-crisis/comment-page-1/

While the first, second and fourth part of his analysis may equally apply to Orthodoxy, I think that the third and fifth points made by Dershowitz are worth considering in the context of our Faith as a means of comparison to the model of the Church of Rome. I believe that one of the reasons that we have not heard as much about problem clergy in Orthodoxy is not because they do not exist but rather, because the Churches of Orthodoxy, unlike Rome, are decentralized, not as codified and bound by legalisms. Our ruling, Diocesan Bishops, unlike Roman bishops, do have authority to act within their own dioceses and settle their own problems under the guidance of their synod.

Perhaps out of the smoking ruins of this scandal, the Holy Spirit will move the Church of Rome in a manner that will enable her to become more like the Apostolic Church and provide her with a spirit of true conciliarity rather than a 'central command structure' that more resembles the excesses of a middle ages monarchy or modern totalitarian state at times.

We can only pray that it be so. In the meantime, we should pray that the Theotokos offer her loving protection and intercession for our separated bretheren in their times of turmoil.

Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: lubeltri on April 19, 2010, 01:58:45 AM
I think it is difficult to say what is going on in Orthodox churches worldwide, whether, your "conciliar" model is better at preventing sex abuse problems or simply better at keeping them quiet. It is plainly evident that Orthodox get very little attention in Western media.

I would point out that the Catholic practice of rigorously documenting everything, and the centralized bureaucracy and canon law described by you, have allowed the scandals to be exposed. No written evidence, no scandal.

Of course, it is also true that the Catholic Church is by far the largest and most visible target. If the media does not cover something, it does not mean it doesn't exist.

Considering all of these caviats, it still goes without saying that there must be better accountability and efficiency in handling child abuse in the global Catholic Church.

And of course, that applies to other churches and to secular institutions too.



Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Mickey on April 19, 2010, 09:58:45 AM
I believe that one of the reasons that we have not heard as much about problem clergy in Orthodoxy is not because they do not exist but rather, because the Churches of Orthodoxy, unlike Rome, are decentralized, not as codified and bound by legalisms. Our ruling, Diocesan Bishops, unlike Roman bishops, do have authority to act within their own dioceses and settle their own problems under the guidance of their synod.

Yes. I believe this also.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: podkarpatska on April 19, 2010, 10:17:06 AM
I think it is difficult to say what is going on in Orthodox churches worldwide, whether, your "conciliar" model is better at preventing sex abuse problems or simply better at keeping them quiet. It is plainly evident that Orthodox get very little attention in Western media.

I would point out that the Catholic practice of rigorously documenting everything, and the centralized bureaucracy and canon law described by you, have allowed the scandals to be exposed. No written evidence, no scandal.

And of course, that applies to other churches and to secular institutions too.


The non-global organizational structure of the Orthodox Church does not mean that there is not a tradition of 'rigorous documentation' and bureaucracy within her component parts. We also maintain records and documentation regarding issues of Church law and internal discipline.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: HandmaidenofGod on April 19, 2010, 10:48:40 AM
Forgive me if this question has already been asked, but many are justifiably upset that rather than having the priests prosecuted the Church simply moved them around.

Here is my question: Why didn't the parents of the victims call the cops?

In the US, we have heard stories over the years of teachers, baseball coaches, Boy Scout Leaders, you name it, taking advantage of the children they are in charge of. In each case, the parents contact the police.

While I know in some cases that the abuse took place in Orphanages where the victim might not have an advocate to contact the cops on their behalf, in many of the cases the victims did.

If my child comes home and tells me that anyone has touched them in an unwelcome manner, my first call will not be to the person's boss, but to the police.

I am not trying to "blame the victim", but rather trying to understand the situation.

Why were the Bishops contacted by but not the police?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: podkarpatska on April 19, 2010, 11:22:21 AM
Forgive me if this question has already been asked, but many are justifiably upset that rather than having the priests prosecuted the Church simply moved them around.

Here is my question: Why didn't the parents of the victims call the cops?

In the US, we have heard stories over the years of teachers, baseball coaches, Boy Scout Leaders, you name it, taking advantage of the children they are in charge of. In each case, the parents contact the police.

While I know in some cases that the abuse took place in Orphanages where the victim might not have an advocate to contact the cops on their behalf, in many of the cases the victims did.

If my child comes home and tells me that anyone has touched them in an unwelcome manner, my first call will not be to the person's boss, but to the police.

I am not trying to "blame the victim", but rather trying to understand the situation.

Why were the Bishops contacted by but not the police?

I think that it is because of the 'special relationship' that the faithful may have had, both Orthodox and other believers, with their spiritual leaders. If you honestly believed that 'they', i.e. the Bishops et al, would 'take care' of the offender, you trusted that would be the case, particularly in the context of people's reactions to certain things going back thirty or forty years ago. If you look back at that time period other groups 'hushed' the 'unspeakable' crimes up, including educators, coaches, scout leaders, medical professionals and others. As a society we no longer refuse to speak of such crimes among ourselves and with our kids. That is a change for the better. I think that what is happening now is a reflection of the shock and horror at coming to realize that such trust was, most likely, misplaced. I think that the Dershowitz article, previously posted, also addresses some of your points.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on April 19, 2010, 12:11:34 PM


And of course, that applies to other churches and to secular institutions too.




Like in public eduation for example. Last year. here in the U.S. there over 400,000 reported cases of child sexual abuse in public schools. The problem is even more serious in the schools than it is in the Catholic Church.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: podkarpatska on April 19, 2010, 12:29:17 PM


And of course, that applies to other churches and to secular institutions too.




Like in public eduation for example. Last year. here in the U.S. there over 400,000 reported cases of child sexual abuse in public schools. The problem is even more serious in the schools than it is in the Catholic Church.

While true, the issue the Church faces is more complex as she needs to light the way to righteousness and salvation. That is not the mission of the secular institutions under attack.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on April 19, 2010, 02:39:31 PM


And of course, that applies to other churches and to secular institutions too.




Like in public eduation for example. Last year. here in the U.S. there over 400,000 reported cases of child sexual abuse in public schools. The problem is even more serious in the schools than it is in the Catholic Church.

While true, the issue the Church faces is more complex as she needs to light the way to righteousness and salvation. That is not the mission of the secular institutions under attack.
I absolutely agree with you. The Church needs to be the light of the world and has no excuse whatsoever for this kind of behavior. This being said, the media is treating it as if its an epidemic in the Catholic Church, when it is not.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Mickey on April 19, 2010, 02:48:52 PM
This being said, the media is treating it as if its an epidemic in the Catholic Church, when it is not.

I believe it has reached epidemic proportions in the Latin church.

Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: lubeltri on April 19, 2010, 03:42:01 PM
This being said, the media is treating it as if its an epidemic in the Catholic Church, when it is not.

I believe it has reached epidemic proportions in the Latin church.

How very nice that you believe that. But don't expect anyone to take your belief seriously until you can marshall evidence to demonstrate it.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Mickey on April 19, 2010, 03:43:43 PM
But don't expect anyone to take your belief seriously until you can marshall evidence to demonstrate it.

You're kidding, right?  I do not take joy in this travesty...but the evidence is overwhelming.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on April 19, 2010, 03:46:35 PM
But don't expect anyone to take your belief seriously until you can marshall evidence to demonstrate it.

You're kidding, right?  I do not take joy in this travesty...but the evidence is overwhelming.
When it the rate of pedophelia is the same or lower among the Catholic clergy, I am not sure that it is proper to characterize the problem in the Catholic Church as an epidemic.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on April 19, 2010, 03:49:27 PM
But don't expect anyone to take your belief seriously until you can marshall evidence to demonstrate it.

You're kidding, right?  I do not take joy in this travesty...but the evidence is overwhelming.
Sour grapes from an ex-Catholic. Should I be surprised? I have watched your attitude towards the Church go from bad to worse over the past couple of years. If this trend continues you will soon be handing out Jack Chick tracts.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Mickey on April 19, 2010, 03:55:26 PM
Sour grapes from an ex-Catholic.

No...not sour grapes...it is called abuse....and it is a terrible problem.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on April 19, 2010, 03:56:40 PM
Sour grapes from an ex-Catholic.

No...not sour grapes...it is called abuse....and it is a terrible problem.
I agree. Its a terrible problem. Of course there is a much higher rate of it in Public education. Why address it in the Church but not here? Answer: Anti-Catholic bias
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Mickey on April 19, 2010, 04:10:26 PM
I agree. Its a terrible problem. Of course there is a much higher rate of it in Public education. Why address it in the Church but not here? Answer: Anti-Catholic bias

The problem should be addressed everywhere that it exists.  It is especially troubling when it happens in a church. Pope Benedict had tears in his eyes as he addressed some of the Malta victims---is that anti-Catholic bias?

Everyone knows it has been a problem in the RCC. Calling it anti-Catholic does not make it go away.  :(
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on April 19, 2010, 04:12:35 PM
I agree. Its a terrible problem. Of course there is a much higher rate of it in Public education. Why address it in the Church but not here? Answer: Anti-Catholic bias

The problem should be addressed everywhere that it exists.  It is especially troubling when it happens in a church. Pope Benedict had tears in his eyes as he addressed some of the Malta victims---is that anti-Catholic bias?

Everyone knows it has been a problem in the RCC. Calling it anti-Catholic does not make it go away.  :(
Pretending like there are more people who sexually abuse children in the Catholic Church than other institutions is anti-Catholic bias. Again, why is it being addressed in the Catholic Church but not elsewhere.
Don't get me wrong. What has happened in the Catholic Church that cries out to God. But let's be honest about the real nature of the situation.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Fr. George on April 19, 2010, 04:18:09 PM
Calling any abuse in any Church "epidemic" may be correct, but only internally - that is, the Church holds itself to the highest standards, and sees anything less as a blight.

However, if one looks at it from an external perspective, and compares rates to other institutions, it's clear that the problem in the RCC is not nearly as bad as it is in Public Education, where you have (IIRC) both a higher rate and, because of the difference in overall size, more people affected.

Even looking at the RCC's issues with the subject one must differentiate between what was perpetrated by clergy, which is treated as if it were the majority of cases, and what was perpetrated by lay volunteers, which is actually the majority of cases, because they involve different spiritual treatments and certainly require different means of prevention.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Mickey on April 19, 2010, 04:18:16 PM
Again, why is it being addressed in the Catholic Church but not elsewhere.

Uh...because it is a continuing problem and they are held to a higher standard.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Mickey on April 19, 2010, 04:19:31 PM
Even looking at the RCC's issues with the subject one must differentiate between what was perpetrated by clergy, which is treated as if it were the majority of cases, and what was perpetrated by lay volunteers, which is actually the majority of cases, because they involve different spiritual treatments and certainly require different means of prevention.

That is a very good point, Father.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on April 19, 2010, 04:19:54 PM
Again, why is it being addressed in the Catholic Church but not elsewhere.

Uh...because it has been a continuing problem?
It's a continuing problem everywhere.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: podkarpatska on April 19, 2010, 04:31:45 PM
Again, why is it being addressed in the Catholic Church but not elsewhere.

Uh...because it has been a continuing problem?
It's a continuing problem everywhere.

Case in point from today's New York Times....Suit Accuses USA Swimming of Negligence  http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/20/sports/20swim.html?ref=sports
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Schultz on April 19, 2010, 04:41:14 PM
Of note is the title of the article vis-a-vis the title of any number of articles in the NYT regarding the abuse scandal in the RCC.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: podkarpatska on April 19, 2010, 06:16:24 PM
Of note is the title of the article vis-a-vis the title of any number of articles in the NYT regarding the abuse scandal in the RCC.

I agree that most of the news media treatment of the sex scandal in the US, from MSNBC through CBS through Fox and the major papers have sensationalized the problems in the Catholic Church. Regardless of how one feels about Roman Catholicism, it is an historical fact that the Roman church has endured much anti-Catholic bigotry throughout American history.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on April 19, 2010, 06:20:42 PM
Of note is the title of the article vis-a-vis the title of any number of articles in the NYT regarding the abuse scandal in the RCC.

I agree that most of the news media treatment of the sex scandal in the US, from MSNBC through CBS through Fox and the major papers have sensationalized the problems in the Catholic Church. Regardless of how one feels about Roman Catholicism, it is an historical fact that the Roman church has endured much anti-Catholic bigotry throughout American history.
The Black Legend.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: lubeltri on April 20, 2010, 01:14:41 AM

In 2009, there were 6 credible cases of abuse reported in the Catholic Church in the United States. Six. In a church of 65 million.

Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on April 20, 2010, 02:43:24 AM

In 2009, there were 6 credible cases of abuse reported in the Catholic Church in the United States. Six. In a church of 65 million.


I think that there were 398 new allegations reported in 2009, in the USA, where six allegations involved children in 2009. The remaining 392 allegations were made by those who were sexually abused before 2009. So, it does not follow that there will not be reported many more cases in 2009 as time goes on.
And please note that the fees for attorneys in 2009 was about $29 million. And the total costs incurred in 2009, including attorneys fees, settlements, and other costs was running about $104 million.
This is a lot of money to pay for lawyers when people are on the streets begging for food or work.
http://www.nccbuscc.org/ocyp/annual_report/9_CH4.pdf
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on April 20, 2010, 09:38:31 AM

In 2009, there were 6 credible cases of abuse reported in the Catholic Church in the United States. Six. In a church of 65 million.


I think that there were 398 new allegations reported in 2009, in the USA, where six allegations involved children in 2009. The remaining 392 allegations were made by those who were sexually abused before 2009. So, it does not follow that there will not be reported many more cases in 2009 as time goes on.
And please note that the fees for attorneys in 2009 was about $29 million. And the total costs incurred in 2009, including attorneys fees, settlements, and other costs was running about $104 million.
This is a lot of money to pay for lawyers when people are on the streets begging for food or work.
http://www.nccbuscc.org/ocyp/annual_report/9_CH4.pdf
What is your point?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on April 20, 2010, 09:39:24 AM
So when do we start trying to stop the child sexual abuse in the institution where it is even more rampant than in the Catholic Church?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on April 20, 2010, 03:32:55 PM

In 2009, there were 6 credible cases of abuse reported in the Catholic Church in the United States. Six. In a church of 65 million.


I think that there were 398 new allegations reported in 2009, in the USA, where six allegations involved children in 2009. The remaining 392 allegations were made by those who were sexually abused before 2009. So, it does not follow that there will not be reported many more cases in 2009 as time goes on.
And please note that the fees for attorneys in 2009 was about $29 million. And the total costs incurred in 2009, including attorneys fees, settlements, and other costs was running about $104 million.
This is a lot of money to pay for lawyers when people are on the streets begging for food or work.
http://www.nccbuscc.org/ocyp/annual_report/9_CH4.pdf
What is your point?

It is more than six.
And the amount of money spent (almost 2 billion dollars) could be better used to provide food and shelter for the poor. 
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on April 20, 2010, 03:37:39 PM

In 2009, there were 6 credible cases of abuse reported in the Catholic Church in the United States. Six. In a church of 65 million.


I think that there were 398 new allegations reported in 2009, in the USA, where six allegations involved children in 2009. The remaining 392 allegations were made by those who were sexually abused before 2009. So, it does not follow that there will not be reported many more cases in 2009 as time goes on.
And please note that the fees for attorneys in 2009 was about $29 million. And the total costs incurred in 2009, including attorneys fees, settlements, and other costs was running about $104 million.
This is a lot of money to pay for lawyers when people are on the streets begging for food or work.
http://www.nccbuscc.org/ocyp/annual_report/9_CH4.pdf
What is your point?

It is more than six.
And the amount of money spent (almost 2 billion dollars) could be better used to provide food and shelter for the poor. 
The point was that there six reported cases that occured in 2009.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on April 20, 2010, 04:04:01 PM

In 2009, there were 6 credible cases of abuse reported in the Catholic Church in the United States. Six. In a church of 65 million.


I think that there were 398 new allegations reported in 2009, in the USA, where six allegations involved children in 2009. The remaining 392 allegations were made by those who were sexually abused before 2009. So, it does not follow that there will not be reported many more cases in 2009 as time goes on.
And please note that the fees for attorneys in 2009 was about $29 million. And the total costs incurred in 2009, including attorneys fees, settlements, and other costs was running about $104 million.
This is a lot of money to pay for lawyers when people are on the streets begging for food or work.
http://www.nccbuscc.org/ocyp/annual_report/9_CH4.pdf
What is your point?

It is more than six.
And the amount of money spent (almost 2 billion dollars) could be better used to provide food and shelter for the poor. 
The point was that there six reported cases that occured in 2009.
But you asked me what my point was. My point is simply that if history is any judge, then it could very well happen that there will be many more cases reported later on which occurred in 2009. So the statement that there were in fact only six cases in 2009 would  not be true.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on April 20, 2010, 04:07:20 PM

In 2009, there were 6 credible cases of abuse reported in the Catholic Church in the United States. Six. In a church of 65 million.


I think that there were 398 new allegations reported in 2009, in the USA, where six allegations involved children in 2009. The remaining 392 allegations were made by those who were sexually abused before 2009. So, it does not follow that there will not be reported many more cases in 2009 as time goes on.
And please note that the fees for attorneys in 2009 was about $29 million. And the total costs incurred in 2009, including attorneys fees, settlements, and other costs was running about $104 million.
This is a lot of money to pay for lawyers when people are on the streets begging for food or work.
http://www.nccbuscc.org/ocyp/annual_report/9_CH4.pdf
What is your point?

It is more than six.
And the amount of money spent (almost 2 billion dollars) could be better used to provide food and shelter for the poor. 
The point was that there six reported cases that occured in 2009.
But you asked me what my point was. My point is simply that if history is any judge, then it could very well happen that there will be many more cases reported later on which occurred in 2009. So the statement that there were in fact only six cases in 2009 would  not be true.
But that assumes a continuity with the past. We have cracked on down on abuse here in the U.S. and made easier to report and try cases. I don't think the same thing will happen over and over and you have no reason to assume that either.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on April 20, 2010, 04:08:58 PM

In 2009, there were 6 credible cases of abuse reported in the Catholic Church in the United States. Six. In a church of 65 million.


I think that there were 398 new allegations reported in 2009, in the USA, where six allegations involved children in 2009. The remaining 392 allegations were made by those who were sexually abused before 2009. So, it does not follow that there will not be reported many more cases in 2009 as time goes on.
And please note that the fees for attorneys in 2009 was about $29 million. And the total costs incurred in 2009, including attorneys fees, settlements, and other costs was running about $104 million.
This is a lot of money to pay for lawyers when people are on the streets begging for food or work.
http://www.nccbuscc.org/ocyp/annual_report/9_CH4.pdf
What is your point?

It is more than six.
And the amount of money spent (almost 2 billion dollars) could be better used to provide food and shelter for the poor. 
The point was that there six reported cases that occured in 2009.
But you asked me what my point was. My point is simply that if history is any judge, then it could very well happen that there will be many more cases reported later on which occurred in 2009. So the statement that there were in fact only six cases in 2009 would  not be true.
But that assumes a continuity with the past. We have cracked on down on abuse here in the U.S. and made easier to report and try cases. I don't think the same thing will happen over and over and you have no reason to assume that either.
It would be nice, but there are still reports coming out from around the world. Let us pray that you are right and that this will abate.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on April 20, 2010, 04:10:12 PM

In 2009, there were 6 credible cases of abuse reported in the Catholic Church in the United States. Six. In a church of 65 million.


I think that there were 398 new allegations reported in 2009, in the USA, where six allegations involved children in 2009. The remaining 392 allegations were made by those who were sexually abused before 2009. So, it does not follow that there will not be reported many more cases in 2009 as time goes on.
And please note that the fees for attorneys in 2009 was about $29 million. And the total costs incurred in 2009, including attorneys fees, settlements, and other costs was running about $104 million.
This is a lot of money to pay for lawyers when people are on the streets begging for food or work.
http://www.nccbuscc.org/ocyp/annual_report/9_CH4.pdf
What is your point?

It is more than six.
And the amount of money spent (almost 2 billion dollars) could be better used to provide food and shelter for the poor. 
The point was that there six reported cases that occured in 2009.
But you asked me what my point was. My point is simply that if history is any judge, then it could very well happen that there will be many more cases reported later on which occurred in 2009. So the statement that there were in fact only six cases in 2009 would  not be true.
But that assumes a continuity with the past. We have cracked on down on abuse here in the U.S. and made easier to report and try cases. I don't think the same thing will happen over and over and you have no reason to assume that either.
It would be nice, but there are still reports coming out from around the world. Let us pray that you are right and that this will abate.
That's because its time for the rest of the world to go through it's reform, just as we have here in the U.S.A.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on April 20, 2010, 04:57:11 PM
Forgive me if this question has already been asked, but many are justifiably upset that rather than having the priests prosecuted the Church simply moved them around.

Here is my question: Why didn't the parents of the victims call the cops?

In the US, we have heard stories over the years of teachers, baseball coaches, Boy Scout Leaders, you name it, taking advantage of the children they are in charge of. In each case, the parents contact the police.

Dear Handmaiden,

In fact parents did call the police.  If you remember, most of the abuse cases in the Catholic Church, when they finally came to light were 20, 30, 40 years old some of them.  I am old enough to remember that society as a whole did not take these kinds of accusations seriously.  It was an adults word against a child's word or a youth's word and the police would log the report, ask a few questions and go away.

If it happened with the same priest often enough, the priest was removed and placed into counseling and/or sent away on a retreat with a confessor to consider his evil ways and make firm amendment to stop them.  He was then sent to another place to start fresh where his new life and purpose were believed to have a chance of taking root.

It was still believed in those days that men who were so attracted to children or youths would be able to control themselves.  The fact of the matter is that most of them can.  It is only a slight percentage of true pedophiles who will not or cannot contain themselves.

This is the a short pared down version.  The short answer about why parents did not call the police?....

They did.

M.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Robb on April 21, 2010, 12:53:03 AM
I don't think that almost anybody in those days would have believed the word of a child against that of a Catholic priest, especially in the large urban areas where the RCC had such a large amount of control.  Also, remember that a large number of the police in those days were Irish Catholics, and they are people who, even if not too practicing, take reverence for their priest very seriously.  Also I highly doubt that even a child's parents would have been too quick to believe their reports of abuse.  The RCC was just too big and too respected for anything to damage her.  It took decades of social decline and a loss of prestige by Catholicism in order to make these reports surface and society in general, especially the media take them seriously.

Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on April 21, 2010, 01:02:55 AM
I don't think that almost anybody in those days would have believed the word of a child against that of a Catholic priest, especially in the large urban areas where the RCC had such a large amount of control.  Also, remember that a large number of the police in those days were Irish Catholics, and they are people who, even if not too practicing, take reverence for their priest very seriously.  Also I highly doubt that even a child's parents would have been too quick to believe their reports of abuse.  The RCC was just too big and too respected for anything to damage her.  It took decades of social decline and a loss of prestige by Catholicism in order to make these reports surface and society in general, especially the media take them seriously.

Then there are the cases where it does become a case of man-boy love and some of the young males went back willingly.  Some went back out of a combination of fear and attraction.  In any event they were loathe to admit to what they'd done.  There are some horrid tragedies out there because of the complexity of the circumstances and emotions involved...and all the unintended consequences.

The suicides sometimes seem to be the most tragic but I've met those who continue to live with the shame and the guilt and all kinds of other crippling issues.

It is not at all as cut and dried as one might imagine from outside.

Mary
Title: Re: POPE UNDER PRESSURE AS ABUSE CLAIMS SWEEP CHURCH IN EUROPE
Post by: Tallitot on April 24, 2010, 12:26:41 PM
Typical. Whenever someone tries to discuss the issue, catholics engage in an ad hominen attack.
Title: Re: POPE UNDER PRESSURE AS ABUSE CLAIMS SWEEP CHURCH IN EUROPE
Post by: Tallitot on April 24, 2010, 12:26:41 PM
Because the RCC has gone to great lenghts to cover up the problem and protect the perpetrators from legal prosecution?
Title: Re: POPE UNDER PRESSURE AS ABUSE CLAIMS SWEEP CHURCH IN EUROPE
Post by: ytterbiumanalyst on April 24, 2010, 12:28:22 PM
Because the RCC has gone to great lenghts to cover up the problem and protect the perpetrators from legal prosecution?
Please substantiate this claim. I say this not because I don't believe they have, but because this sort of claim needs to be backed up by evidence.
Title: Re: POPE UNDER PRESSURE AS ABUSE CLAIMS SWEEP CHURCH IN EUROPE
Post by: elijahmaria on April 24, 2010, 12:51:36 PM
Because the RCC has gone to great lenghts to cover up the problem and protect the perpetrators from legal prosecution?
Please substantiate this claim. I say this not because I don't believe they have, but because this sort of claim needs to be backed up by evidence.

Under the circumstances this kind of argumentation from either side simply makes no sense.

What needs to be said and demonstrated is that there was not any attempt to hide sin.

In the first place the entire social fabric in those decades tended to take lightly the claims of children accusing adults of any kind of wrongdoing.  In fact in most of the cases that came to light with respect to Catholic priests during those years, the police were called and generally nothing was done.  The very same thing can be said about sexual abuse and tampering in families.  Rarely were those instances taken very seriously by public officers of the law.

Also as I noted above most of the cases of abuse registered against Catholic priests involved older boys and priests where there was some kind of complicity whether out of fear or out of some misplaced desire that was not easily controlled on the part of both individuals involved.  These cases tended not to come out till many many years later.

Depending on the spin given some of these cases, our current society would be praising them as a healthy and liberated expression of man-boy love.

So much of the "outrage" that goes on is heavily dependent on what kind of "spin" one wants to put on things.

What is clear is that there is very little to no attention paid to the actual stories set in the context of their times and the people involved.

For most it is just another excuse to throw stones at the Catholic Church...

M.
Title: Re: POPE UNDER PRESSURE AS ABUSE CLAIMS SWEEP CHURCH IN EUROPE
Post by: stanley123 on April 25, 2010, 09:42:40 PM
Because the RCC has gone to great lenghts to cover up the problem and protect the perpetrators from legal prosecution?
Please substantiate this claim. I say this not because I don't believe they have, but because this sort of claim needs to be backed up by evidence.

Under the circumstances this kind of argumentation from either side simply makes no sense.

What needs to be said and demonstrated is that there was not any attempt to hide sin.

In the first place the entire social fabric in those decades tended to take lightly the claims of children accusing adults of any kind of wrongdoing.  In fact in most of the cases that came to light with respect to Catholic priests during those years, the police were called and generally nothing was done.  The very same thing can be said about sexual abuse and tampering in families.  Rarely were those instances taken very seriously by public officers of the law.

Also as I noted above most of the cases of abuse registered against Catholic priests involved older boys and priests where there was some kind of complicity whether out of fear or out of some misplaced desire that was not easily controlled on the part of both individuals involved.  These cases tended not to come out till many many years later.

Depending on the spin given some of these cases, our current society would be praising them as a healthy and liberated expression of man-boy love.

So much of the "outrage" that goes on is heavily dependent on what kind of "spin" one wants to put on things.

What is clear is that there is very little to no attention paid to the actual stories set in the context of their times and the people involved.

For most it is just another excuse to throw stones at the Catholic Church...

M.
The revelations are disgusting and shocking. Do I have to describe them? This is not an excuse for throwing stones at the Catholic Church but a simple call for justice for these crimes of child rape.  Why should lawlessness be tolerated when children are being raped?
Title: Re: POPE UNDER PRESSURE AS ABUSE CLAIMS SWEEP CHURCH IN EUROPE
Post by: elijahmaria on April 25, 2010, 11:59:51 PM
Because the RCC has gone to great lenghts to cover up the problem and protect the perpetrators from legal prosecution?
Please substantiate this claim. I say this not because I don't believe they have, but because this sort of claim needs to be backed up by evidence.

Under the circumstances this kind of argumentation from either side simply makes no sense.

What needs to be said and demonstrated is that there was not any attempt to hide sin.

In the first place the entire social fabric in those decades tended to take lightly the claims of children accusing adults of any kind of wrongdoing.  In fact in most of the cases that came to light with respect to Catholic priests during those years, the police were called and generally nothing was done.  The very same thing can be said about sexual abuse and tampering in families.  Rarely were those instances taken very seriously by public officers of the law.

Also as I noted above most of the cases of abuse registered against Catholic priests involved older boys and priests where there was some kind of complicity whether out of fear or out of some misplaced desire that was not easily controlled on the part of both individuals involved.  These cases tended not to come out till many many years later.

Depending on the spin given some of these cases, our current society would be praising them as a healthy and liberated expression of man-boy love.

So much of the "outrage" that goes on is heavily dependent on what kind of "spin" one wants to put on things.

What is clear is that there is very little to no attention paid to the actual stories set in the context of their times and the people involved.

For most it is just another excuse to throw stones at the Catholic Church...

M.
The revelations are disgusting and shocking. Do I have to describe them? This is not an excuse for throwing stones at the Catholic Church but a simple call for justice for these crimes of child rape.  Why should lawlessness be tolerated when children are being raped?

The rape of children is the smallest portion of the sin and excess.  Are you going to tell me differently?  If so you'll need to provide evidence.  If not then perhaps you'd care to deal with the wide variety in the lived situations available for consideration INCLUDING those where the priest has been falsely accused.

And you may trust me when I tell you that I am one of the last ones you need to convince of the difficulties of overcoming childhood sexual tampering.  So don't start shrieking at me please.  I have seen enough of hysterical men in my life.  For those who survive a good dose of reality is better than a continuation of half-truths and outright lies and those who are more concerned about their own feelings that those of the victims.

Do you think I am mean to you?  Perhaps you too would like to tell me that I am an hysterical woman.  Perhaps you be less shocked if you would talk to more of the survivors.  Perhaps you'd realize that all of the media attention and vengeful rhetoric does nothing at all toward healing...not a thing!

M.
Title: Re: POPE UNDER PRESSURE AS ABUSE CLAIMS SWEEP CHURCH IN EUROPE
Post by: stanley123 on April 26, 2010, 12:58:33 AM
Because the RCC has gone to great lenghts to cover up the problem and protect the perpetrators from legal prosecution?
Please substantiate this claim. I say this not because I don't believe they have, but because this sort of claim needs to be backed up by evidence.

Under the circumstances this kind of argumentation from either side simply makes no sense.

What needs to be said and demonstrated is that there was not any attempt to hide sin.

In the first place the entire social fabric in those decades tended to take lightly the claims of children accusing adults of any kind of wrongdoing.  In fact in most of the cases that came to light with respect to Catholic priests during those years, the police were called and generally nothing was done.  The very same thing can be said about sexual abuse and tampering in families.  Rarely were those instances taken very seriously by public officers of the law.

Also as I noted above most of the cases of abuse registered against Catholic priests involved older boys and priests where there was some kind of complicity whether out of fear or out of some misplaced desire that was not easily controlled on the part of both individuals involved.  These cases tended not to come out till many many years later.

Depending on the spin given some of these cases, our current society would be praising them as a healthy and liberated expression of man-boy love.

So much of the "outrage" that goes on is heavily dependent on what kind of "spin" one wants to put on things.

What is clear is that there is very little to no attention paid to the actual stories set in the context of their times and the people involved.

For most it is just another excuse to throw stones at the Catholic Church...

M.
The revelations are disgusting and shocking. Do I have to describe them? This is not an excuse for throwing stones at the Catholic Church but a simple call for justice for these crimes of child rape.  Why should lawlessness be tolerated when children are being raped?

The rape of children is the smallest portion of the sin and excess.  Are you going to tell me differently?  If so you'll need to provide evidence.  If not then perhaps you'd care to deal with the wide variety in the lived situations available for consideration INCLUDING those where the priest has been falsely accused.

And you may trust me when I tell you that I am one of the last ones you need to convince of the difficulties of overcoming childhood sexual tampering.  So don't start shrieking at me please.  I have seen enough of hysterical men in my life.  For those who survive a good dose of reality is better than a continuation of half-truths and outright lies and those who are more concerned about their own feelings that those of the victims.

Do you think I am mean to you?  Perhaps you too would like to tell me that I am an hysterical woman.  Perhaps you be less shocked if you would talk to more of the survivors.  Perhaps you'd realize that all of the media attention and vengeful rhetoric does nothing at all toward healing...not a thing!

M.
OK.
Continue with the coverup.
Title: Re: POPE UNDER PRESSURE AS ABUSE CLAIMS SWEEP CHURCH IN EUROPE
Post by: elijahmaria on April 26, 2010, 08:15:53 AM
Because the RCC has gone to great lenghts to cover up the problem and protect the perpetrators from legal prosecution?
Please substantiate this claim. I say this not because I don't believe they have, but because this sort of claim needs to be backed up by evidence.

Under the circumstances this kind of argumentation from either side simply makes no sense.

What needs to be said and demonstrated is that there was not any attempt to hide sin.

In the first place the entire social fabric in those decades tended to take lightly the claims of children accusing adults of any kind of wrongdoing.  In fact in most of the cases that came to light with respect to Catholic priests during those years, the police were called and generally nothing was done.  The very same thing can be said about sexual abuse and tampering in families.  Rarely were those instances taken very seriously by public officers of the law.

Also as I noted above most of the cases of abuse registered against Catholic priests involved older boys and priests where there was some kind of complicity whether out of fear or out of some misplaced desire that was not easily controlled on the part of both individuals involved.  These cases tended not to come out till many many years later.

Depending on the spin given some of these cases, our current society would be praising them as a healthy and liberated expression of man-boy love.

So much of the "outrage" that goes on is heavily dependent on what kind of "spin" one wants to put on things.

What is clear is that there is very little to no attention paid to the actual stories set in the context of their times and the people involved.

For most it is just another excuse to throw stones at the Catholic Church...

M.
The revelations are disgusting and shocking. Do I have to describe them? This is not an excuse for throwing stones at the Catholic Church but a simple call for justice for these crimes of child rape.  Why should lawlessness be tolerated when children are being raped?

The rape of children is the smallest portion of the sin and excess.  Are you going to tell me differently?  If so you'll need to provide evidence.  If not then perhaps you'd care to deal with the wide variety in the lived situations available for consideration INCLUDING those where the priest has been falsely accused.

And you may trust me when I tell you that I am one of the last ones you need to convince of the difficulties of overcoming childhood sexual tampering.  So don't start shrieking at me please.  I have seen enough of hysterical men in my life.  For those who survive a good dose of reality is better than a continuation of half-truths and outright lies and those who are more concerned about their own feelings that those of the victims.

Do you think I am mean to you?  Perhaps you too would like to tell me that I am an hysterical woman.  Perhaps you be less shocked if you would talk to more of the survivors.  Perhaps you'd realize that all of the media attention and vengeful rhetoric does nothing at all toward healing...not a thing!

M.
OK.
Continue with the coverup.

It is not a matter of covering up.  It is a matter of looking realistically at what has happened over time and you clearly don't want to do that.  You just want to grind your teeth at the easy enemy. 

We who have survived such things do no appreciate your third, forth and fifth hand shock and awe.  We are not monkeys in a cage.    Besides if you did go and look there's not much to cover at the moment if you'd take off your blinders and go and find out.   

Go shout at the schools of psychology that taught that you could heal sexual predators....change their behaviors.

Go do that.  Have the memories of their faculties burned in effigy, if you are in such a need to vent your emotions.

Go picket police stations where officers went out on domestic violence calls and sexual abuse calls no matter WHO did the deed,  and did NOTHING but file a report!!  Who do you think those survivors have to sue????  Where's your voice in that mess?

Put your binoculars down and come on out into the lake of fire if you really give a hoot!!

Mary
Title: Re: POPE UNDER PRESSURE AS ABUSE CLAIMS SWEEP CHURCH IN EUROPE
Post by: stanley123 on April 26, 2010, 11:47:26 PM
    Besides if you did go and look there's not much to cover at the moment if you'd take off your blinders and go and find out.
Take my blinders off and go and find out?  find out about what?
You mean we should take a closer look and find out about the child rapes by a Catholic priest  that resulted in suicides? Or that we should take a closer look at what Catholic magazines such as America magazine is talking about when it says that more than 5000 Catholic priests have been involved in "sex abuse"?
Have you read anything about the Catholic priest Father Robert K. Larson who raped a 12 year old boy, Eric Patterson? And what about the other children who he raped who committed suicide, such as Gilbert Rodriguez, Paul Tafolla, Bobby Thompson, Daniel Romney? Should we just forget about these children and their suicides and the thousands of others who have been molested, abused and raped by Catholic priests?
What does it mean to take your blinders off?
And what about the North American Man Boy Love association which was founded and established in part by a Catholic priest? And this Catholic priest received a sterling letter of recommendation from a Catholic cardinal who was familiar with him? 
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: LBK on April 27, 2010, 03:00:49 AM
Quote
It is not a matter of covering up.  It is a matter of looking realistically at what has happened over time and you clearly don't want to do that.  You just want to grind your teeth at the easy enemy.  

We who have survived such things do no appreciate your third, forth and fifth hand shock and awe.  We are not monkeys in a cage.    Besides if you did go and look there's not much to cover at the moment if you'd take off your blinders and go and find out.  

Go shout at the schools of psychology that taught that you could heal sexual predators....change their behaviors.

Go do that.  Have the memories of their faculties burned in effigy, if you are in such a need to vent your emotions.

Go picket police stations where officers went out on domestic violence calls and sexual abuse calls no matter WHO did the deed,  and did NOTHING but file a report!!  Who do you think those survivors have to sue?  Where's your voice in that mess?

Put your binoculars down and come on out into the lake of fire if you really give a hoot!!

Mary

Mary, I don't know how old you are, but I'll say this: the above post of yours sickened me to the core in its dismissal of the monumental difficulty over so many generations to muster the courage to speak out against the physical and sexual abuse inflicted on them and their loved ones, of earlier and later generations to their own. I make no distinction as to whether these crimes were committed by clergy or laity, secular or religious, but the principle, up to a point, is still the same. Show me in law, be that law secular or church law/doctrine, where it is acceptable for children, girls, boys, men, or women to be raped, or physically or sexually abused, particularly when it comes to such crimes perpetrated by clergy, monastics, or laymen (of either sex) in positions of authority within a church, ANY church. Something about millstones and little ones?

And how on God's earth can a child of four, eight, twelve, boy or girl, possibly "ask for it" or "consent" to sexual activity? How could a woman from a "traditional" society of 40-60 or more years ago, walk out of an abusive marriage (abuse, physical and/or sexual, inflicted on her, and/or her children) without her name being blackened and shamed, even if half the town knew what was happening? Why is it that the vast majority of women who have been raped were wearing quite modest clothing at the time? And of the boys and male youths who have been preyed upon while waiting for a bus, walking home from school or work? If it was so hard for so long for girls and women to speak up, spare a thought for the lads!

As for "why did it take so long for the victims to speak up": Do you know any war veterans, Mary? Second World War? Korean War? Vietnam? Do you know anyone who survived Joseph Stalin's "largesse"? How many have dared to speak of their experiences? So many did not speak a word of the horrors they endured, right until their dying day. Why? Too late to ask them now, Mary.

This ain't pop psych stuff, Mary, I have direct relatives over three generations who fall into the above categories. There's even a woman who was lusted after by her priest. She had enough gumption to fend him off, but it almost destroyed her physically and spiritually, though her marriage survived, thanks to her husband being an exceptionally good man who knew and trusted the goodness and integrity of his wife. She was lucky, after a fashion. Others were not, if their husbands were remotely the jealous type. Her son has barely set foot in church since, other than weddings, funerals and the odd Easter and Christmas service.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on April 27, 2010, 03:29:19 AM
    elijahmaria

It's very hard to believe your a Eastern Catholic......

The word's of His Holiness The Late Patriarch of Blessed Memory Pavle [Paul] of Serbia, told the Serbian people that were involved in the Bosnian /Croatian/Muslim conflict ,that committed atrocities ,That with out the admittance of guilt there can be no repentance unto forgiveness....
 The pope and the bishops are guilty as sin, for allowing this evil to continnue all these years and possibly centuries....they all should step down ,check them self's in a monastery in repentance for the rest of there earthly life...
When it comes to religious leaders and the priests ,there can be no second chance,not when people's salvation is at stake........God Have mercy on the soul's that committed suicide over this abuse.....
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on April 27, 2010, 07:14:54 AM
Quote
It is not a matter of covering up.  It is a matter of looking realistically at what has happened over time and you clearly don't want to do that.  You just want to grind your teeth at the easy enemy.  

We who have survived such things do no appreciate your third, forth and fifth hand shock and awe.  We are not monkeys in a cage.    Besides if you did go and look there's not much to cover at the moment if you'd take off your blinders and go and find out.  

Go shout at the schools of psychology that taught that you could heal sexual predators....change their behaviors.

Go do that.  Have the memories of their faculties burned in effigy, if you are in such a need to vent your emotions.

Go picket police stations where officers went out on domestic violence calls and sexual abuse calls no matter WHO did the deed,  and did NOTHING but file a report!!  Who do you think those survivors have to sue?  Where's your voice in that mess?

Put your binoculars down and come on out into the lake of fire if you really give a hoot!!

Mary

Mary, I don't know how old you are, but I'll say this:

I am older than you think and much closer to the psyche of the abused than you are.  Who are you tell me what to think about something I know intimately.

Mary

Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on April 27, 2010, 07:19:12 AM
   elijahmaria

It's very hard to believe your a Eastern Catholic......

The word's of His Holiness The Late Patriarch of Blessed Memory Pavle [Paul] of Serbia, told the Serbian people that were involved in the Bosnian /Croatian/Muslim conflict ,that committed atrocities ,That with out the admittance of guilt there can be no repentance unto forgiveness....
 The pope and the bishops are guilty as sin, for allowing this evil to continnue all these years and possibly centuries....they all should step down ,check them self's in a monastery in repentance for the rest of there earthly life...
When it comes to religious leaders and the priests ,there can be no second chance,not when people's salvation is at stake........God Have mercy on the soul's that committed suicide over this abuse.....

You don't know what you are talking about.  All you've done is read the accounts and the furor in the press.  You don't move me away from my position with this kind of vengeful talk.  You don't know who is guilty and who is not.  All you know is what the press tells you and you are of a mind to swallow it line and sinker.

I am not.

And yes.  I know personally my own share of suicides of those who suffered all kinds of abuse as children.  I also know many many more survivors...and their blood lust is nothing compared to what is going on in the public places and here.

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: lubeltri on April 27, 2010, 09:23:29 AM
If this thread isn't part of the "moral panic" instigated recently, I don't know what is.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on April 27, 2010, 09:30:42 AM
If this thread isn't part of the "moral panic" instigated recently, I don't know what is.

Yes.  And I can tell you that survivors have enough of panic and hysteria to last a life time.  So what is going on in the name of the well being of the victims is not particularly helpful loading the distemper of those well removed from the situations on top of the damage already done.

M.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Mickey on April 27, 2010, 10:01:09 AM
Yes.  And I can tell you that survivors have enough of panic and hysteria to last a life time.  So what is going on in the name of the well being of the victims is not particularly helpful loading the distemper of those well removed from the situations on top of the damage already done.

I personally know someone who was abused by RC clergy.  These people need to heal.  Part of that healing involves full disclosure.  Let the full truth be known--those who are guilty--and those who are not.  And let the suffering souls of those who have been injured, find peace and solace through our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on April 27, 2010, 11:52:27 AM
Yes.  And I can tell you that survivors have enough of panic and hysteria to last a life time.  So what is going on in the name of the well being of the victims is not particularly helpful loading the distemper of those well removed from the situations on top of the damage already done.

I personally know someone who was abused by RC clergy.  These people need to heal.  Part of that healing involves full disclosure.  Let the full truth be known--those who are guilty--and those who are not.  And let the suffering souls of those who have been injured, find peace and solace through our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Just as anyone who has been abused by a Protestant minister Eastern Orthodox priest, or Jewish Rabbi needs healing.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: lubeltri on April 27, 2010, 05:22:45 PM
Part of that healing involves full disclosure.  Let the full truth be known

And what we've witnessed in the moral panic of the last couple of months has been not enough truth and far too much distortion and confusion.

And these distortions and confusions do a grave disservice to the abuse victims.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on April 27, 2010, 05:34:57 PM
Part of that healing involves full disclosure.  Let the full truth be known

And what we've witnessed in the moral panic of the last couple of months has been not enough truth and far too much distortion and confusion.

And these distortions and confusions do a grave disservice to the abuse victims.

Unless you've walked in the shoes it is hard to explain  just how much damage all the lurid press does to an already fragile psyche.

M.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Fr. George on April 27, 2010, 05:55:34 PM
Part of that healing involves full disclosure.  Let the full truth be known
And what we've witnessed in the moral panic of the last couple of months has been not enough truth and far too much distortion and confusion.

And these distortions and confusions do a grave disservice to the abuse victims.
Unless you've walked in the shoes it is hard to explain  just how much damage all the lurid press does to an already fragile psyche.

Oh, it's Counseling 101: Talking about the experience with someone who was abused is good, but only in a controlled and very, very safe environment that is set-up for sharing and closure with understanding and perspective.  The publicity, attention, and frequently published details are usually not helpful to someone who is attempting to heal from the experience, and often are quite the opposite.

Generally, my view is:
- Any abuse by an adult on a child should be reported and dealt with according to the provisions of the law and the Church.

- The Church should go the "extra mile" to ensure that kids are safe within its programs, remembering quite well Christ's admonition about the treatment of children (and how heavy a mill-stone is, exactly).

- No one is benefited by sensationalizing the information - the Orthodox should not throw stones, as we have our own abusers that we have not handled well (and for us, any number of abusers > 0 is way too many, regardless of how small our number of abusers appears when compared to the RCC); and there are larger systems that have seen child abuse and not handled it well (Public Schools being #1, IMO).

- Yes, any abuse by any adult in a religious institution is a scandal, especially to a Christian; but no one benefits by blowing the story up and thus driving millions of people away from Christ because of imperfect people in the Church.

- We do not spend enough time in settings like this discussing the more prevalent and insidious role of volunteers in abuse wrought both in the Churches and the Schools.  For years, pedophiles and their ilk have targeted Church and school ministries because we need and allow so many volunteers, and have such lax oversight, that precursors and early actions of abuse could happen right in front of our eyes and we wouldn't see it.  I have had few time-periods as sickening as watching a video of two or three caught and convicted abusers (who were teenagers when they committed the abuse!) telling us how they manipulated the system and often committed abusive acts within the line-of-sight of the childrens' parents.

- What should we be spending all our energy (and internet verbosity) on?  Developing an inclusive approach to screening and oversight so that our kids are 100% safe in the Church's ministries, both when they're with clergy and when they're with laity, but yet can still experience the joy of Christ's Faith and Love.  Until then, we should pray for the RCC, and for ourselves, that (a) all abusers are found, (b) no children are hurt, and (c) all abusers come to the knowledge of the Truth and repent and resist the temptation to harm others.  Yes - pray for the victims, and pray for the perpetrators.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on April 27, 2010, 06:23:12 PM

- What should we be spending all our energy (and internet verbosity) on?  Developing an inclusive approach to screening and oversight so that our kids are 100% safe in the Church's ministries, both when they're with clergy and when they're with laity, but yet can still experience the joy of Christ's Faith and Love.  Until then, we should pray for the RCC, and for ourselves, that (a) all abusers are found, (b) no children are hurt, and (c) all abusers come to the knowledge of the Truth and repent and resist the temptation to harm others.  Yes - pray for the victims, and pray for the perpetrators.

This is all so easy on the eyes and heart... 

Thank you so very much, Father

M.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on April 27, 2010, 11:50:14 PM
How the Nazis engineered a paedophile priests scare

http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/how_the_nazis_engineered_a_paedophile_priests_scare/

Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on April 28, 2010, 01:52:10 AM
How the Nazis engineered a paedophile priests scare

http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/how_the_nazis_engineered_a_paedophile_priests_scare/


But the Nazis did not make up the North American Man Boy Love association which claims that sex between men and boys is beneficial. And who was a cofounder of this group? None other than Catholic priest Father Paul Shanley. "Boston church officials told their counterparts in San Bernardino, Calif., that Father Stanley was a priest "in good standing" who "has no problem that would be a concern to your diocese" as he was being transferred there in 1990."
http://www.rickross.com/reference/clergy/clergy47.html
I don't see any point in blaming Adolf Hitler for what has happened.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Mickey on April 28, 2010, 09:59:01 AM
And what we've witnessed in the moral panic of the last couple of months has been not enough truth and far too much distortion and confusion.

Are you saying that the media is distorting and confusing? How do you know this?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Mickey on April 28, 2010, 10:01:11 AM

Unless you've walked in the shoes it is hard to explain  just how much damage all the lurid press does to an already fragile psyche.

This is true. The man I know was hurting before all the press...and he continues to hurt.

Do you also say that the media is distorting the truth?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on April 28, 2010, 10:05:29 AM
And what we've witnessed in the moral panic of the last couple of months has been not enough truth and far too much distortion and confusion.

Are you saying that the media is distorting and confusing? How do you know this?

How do you know when you pick up your fork to eat if it is in your right hand or your left hand?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: John Larocque on April 28, 2010, 10:09:33 AM
How the Nazis engineered a paedophile priests scare
http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/how_the_nazis_engineered_a_paedophile_priests_scare/

This provides some meaningful context. I read somewhere that the perceived leniency of John Paul II came out of the environment where Polish communist authorities (like the Nazis before them) initiated often false charges against priests (many of them holy and innocent), as part of a government campaign to discredit the Roman church. That is to say, there was a temptation to view these charges as emanating from the church's enemies.

Then of course there were magnetic personalities like Fr. Maciel of the Legion of Christ, who had powerful friends in the Vatican (many of them bought off with donations from his order). Some heads did not roll until after the death of John Paul II.

Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Mickey on April 28, 2010, 10:10:32 AM

Oh, it's Counseling 101: Talking about the experience with someone who was abused is good, but only in a controlled and very, very safe environment that is set-up for sharing and closure with understanding and perspective.  The publicity, attention, and frequently published details are usually not helpful to someone who is attempting to heal from the experience, and often are quite the opposite.

With all due respect Father, I believe that sometimes the opposite can be true.  Sometimes, people repress things over long periods of time and it causes much damage later in life.  When similar incidences are revealed, it can cause the person who is repressing to possibly confront the issue and begin the healing process.  I have much experience with someone very close to me who experienced a lifetime of repression and dissociation. 

But you are correct.  I am not a therapist.  And I do not pretend to teach "counseling 101". 

Forgive this sinner.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on April 28, 2010, 10:17:30 AM
How the Nazis engineered a paedophile priests scare
http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/how_the_nazis_engineered_a_paedophile_priests_scare/

This provides some meaningful context. I read somewhere that the perceived leniency of John Paul II came out of the environment where Polish communist authorities (like the Nazis before them) initiated often false charges against priests (many of them holy and innocent), as part of a government campaign to discredit the Roman church. That is to say, there was a temptation to view these charges as emanating from the church's enemies.

Then of course there were magnetic personalities like Fr. Maciel of the Legion of Christ, who had powerful friends in the Vatican (many of them bought off with donations from his order). Some heads did not roll until after the death of John Paul II.

Even in the American context there were always charges being brought against priests.  We forget that there was a time, and not all that long ago, when priests were regularly taken out and beaten up when their parishioners were displeased with a teaching or a discipline imposed upon them.

The Madonna complex in the reverse also applies to some of the indignities they must endure, and very often if a priest did not yield to the flirtations of a woman then she would accuse him to his bishop for improper sexual advances.  I was able to witness to one such case when the woman was foolish enough to brag publicly about what she was going to do to the priest in question.

None of what is being presented in the press today is being told in context and it all makes it seem as though all of the abuse and covering up continues to this moment.

It is all very badly done though so it is easy to pick away at it.  Only people who are exceptionally gullible cannot see through the brain-washing.

And again the distortions are not helping the ones who really do need the truth more than anything else.

M.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on April 28, 2010, 10:18:39 AM
Part of that healing involves full disclosure.  Let the full truth be known
And what we've witnessed in the moral panic of the last couple of months has been not enough truth and far too much distortion and confusion.

And these distortions and confusions do a grave disservice to the abuse victims.
Unless you've walked in the shoes it is hard to explain  just how much damage all the lurid press does to an already fragile psyche.

Oh, it's Counseling 101: Talking about the experience with someone who was abused is good, but only in a controlled and very, very safe environment that is set-up for sharing and closure with understanding and perspective.  The publicity, attention, and frequently published details are usually not helpful to someone who is attempting to heal from the experience, and often are quite the opposite.

Generally, my view is:
- Any abuse by an adult on a child should be reported and dealt with according to the provisions of the law and the Church.

- The Church should go the "extra mile" to ensure that kids are safe within its programs, remembering quite well Christ's admonition about the treatment of children (and how heavy a mill-stone is, exactly).

- No one is benefited by sensationalizing the information - the Orthodox should not throw stones, as we have our own abusers that we have not handled well (and for us, any number of abusers > 0 is way too many, regardless of how small our number of abusers appears when compared to the RCC); and there are larger systems that have seen child abuse and not handled it well (Public Schools being #1, IMO).

- Yes, any abuse by any adult in a religious institution is a scandal, especially to a Christian; but no one benefits by blowing the story up and thus driving millions of people away from Christ because of imperfect people in the Church.

- We do not spend enough time in settings like this discussing the more prevalent and insidious role of volunteers in abuse wrought both in the Churches and the Schools.  For years, pedophiles and their ilk have targeted Church and school ministries because we need and allow so many volunteers, and have such lax oversight, that precursors and early actions of abuse could happen right in front of our eyes and we wouldn't see it.  I have had few time-periods as sickening as watching a video of two or three caught and convicted abusers (who were teenagers when they committed the abuse!) telling us how they manipulated the system and often committed abusive acts within the line-of-sight of the childrens' parents.

- What should we be spending all our energy (and internet verbosity) on?  Developing an inclusive approach to screening and oversight so that our kids are 100% safe in the Church's ministries, both when they're with clergy and when they're with laity, but yet can still experience the joy of Christ's Faith and Love.  Until then, we should pray for the RCC, and for ourselves, that (a) all abusers are found, (b) no children are hurt, and (c) all abusers come to the knowledge of the Truth and repent and resist the temptation to harm others.  Yes - pray for the victims, and pray for the perpetrators.
This is the most Christian post I have seen on this matter coming form Some one not in the RCC. Your Charity is a breath of fresh air.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on April 28, 2010, 10:28:51 AM

Papist....If

Fr.Bless...

If Fr.George Is New calender And under the Ecumenical Patriarch ,thats the answer one would expect,Because the new Calender Greeks and the Ecumenical Patriarch are buddy, buddies with the pope and practically in bed togeather........ ;D
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Fr. George on April 28, 2010, 11:38:55 AM
Oh, it's Counseling 101: Talking about the experience with someone who was abused is good, but only in a controlled and very, very safe environment that is set-up for sharing and closure with understanding and perspective.  The publicity, attention, and frequently published details are usually not helpful to someone who is attempting to heal from the experience, and often are quite the opposite.
With all due respect Father, I believe that sometimes the opposite can be true.  Sometimes, people repress things over long periods of time and it causes much damage later in life.  When similar incidences are revealed, it can cause the person who is repressing to possibly confront the issue and begin the healing process.  I have much experience with someone very close to me who experienced a lifetime of repression and dissociation. 

You are correct, although I have found in my very, very limited experience that these folks are in the minority.  However, your point stands - although I think both our positions can be fulfilled simultaneously.  I'm not advocating sweeping anything under the rug, I'm just advocating a sensible position and some moderation.

But you are correct.  I am not a therapist.  And I do not pretend to teach "counseling 101". 

Your statement was correct, though, so no need to apologize for yourself!

Forgive this sinner.

May the Lord forgive!  You have not sinned against me.  Please forgive me for not including your position from the beginning!
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Fr. George on April 28, 2010, 11:46:42 AM
Fr.Bless...

May the Lord bless you always!  Christos Voskrese!

If Fr.George Is New calender And under the Ecumenical Patriarch ,thats the answer one would expect,Because the new Calender Greeks and the Ecumenical Patriarch are buddy, buddies with the pope and practically in bed togeather........ ;D

LOL.  It would be easier for me to cast stones against the RCC if I didn't know of quite a few abuse cases in the OCA, GOA, etc.  We don't get as much publicity because we're not #1 - people are frequently eager to "knock off" #1's (Microsoft, the RCC, the U.S., etc.), and will exaggerate or sensationalize stories to that end.  It doesn't lessen the seriousness of the underlying wrong, but the fluff that is added isn't necessary.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on April 28, 2010, 12:07:37 PM

Papist....If

Fr.Bless...

If Fr.George Is New calender And under the Ecumenical Patriarch ,thats the answer one would expect,Because the new Calender Greeks and the Ecumenical Patriarch are buddy, buddies with the pope and practically in bed togeather........ ;D

Stashko, your own post must be really embarrassing for you.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Mickey on April 28, 2010, 01:18:45 PM
I'm not advocating sweeping anything under the rug, I'm just advocating a sensible position and some moderation.

Absolutely!
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on April 28, 2010, 08:32:30 PM
We forget that there was a time, and not all that long ago, when priests were regularly taken out and beaten up ....
Sounds like a pretty good idea when a priest has been having sex with children.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on April 28, 2010, 08:35:33 PM

Papist....If

Fr.Bless...

If Fr.George Is New calender And under the Ecumenical Patriarch ,thats the answer one would expect,Because the new Calender Greeks and the Ecumenical Patriarch are buddy, buddies with the pope and practically in bed togeather........ ;D
Do you thing there will ever come a time when Roman Catholics and Serbian Orthodox can be buddy buddy? Like Roman Catholics and the new calendar Greek Orthodox for example?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on April 28, 2010, 09:05:28 PM
Stanley 123

In Serbian Orthodoxy,majority are staunch traditionalist...There are a few serbian bishop's,Metropolitains,possably even this New Patriarch Elect that are ecumenist..But they can only go so far ,before the majority rise up and they are replaced......So no to your Question... ;D
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on April 28, 2010, 09:20:56 PM
We forget that there was a time, and not all that long ago, when priests were regularly taken out and beaten up ....
Sounds like a pretty good idea when a priest has been having sex with children.

Unfortunately that came later.  No.  In the time I refer to priests were beaten for refusing to commune people living publicly in sin.  That sort of earth-shattering evil.

But I don't think there was much press then...or you'd know.

Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Fr. George on April 28, 2010, 09:54:33 PM
We forget that there was a time, and not all that long ago, when priests were regularly taken out and beaten up ....
Sounds like a pretty good idea when a priest has been having sex with children.

"Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."

Don't let them abuse again, but don't beat them up, either.  Let's not discard Christ while we condemn others for discarding Christ.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on April 28, 2010, 11:39:53 PM
We forget that there was a time, and not all that long ago, when priests were regularly taken out and beaten up ....
Sounds like a pretty good idea when a priest has been having sex with children.

"Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."

Don't let them abuse again, but don't beat them up, either.  Let's not discard Christ while we condemn others for discarding Christ.
This mercy business should only go so far in my opinion when children's lives are at stake. I go by the Holy Scriptures which talks of millstones about the neck of the offender.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on April 28, 2010, 11:42:57 PM
Stanley 123

In Serbian Orthodoxy,majority are staunch traditionalist...There are a few serbian bishop's,Metropolitains,possably even this New Patriarch Elect that are ecumenist..But they can only go so far ,before the majority rise up and they are replaced......So no to your Question... ;D
Hi Stashko:
    Well, can Roman Catholics and Serbian Orthodox find any area where there is agreement? Say for example, marching together in a pro-life demonstration?
Thanks.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on April 29, 2010, 01:05:22 AM
Stanley 123

I like the way your, dealing with these child abuses from the catholic church,on this board . being a catholic faithful and all, your not glossing if over, or bringing up protestant abuses,Jewish ,and others  or directing  the attention elsewhere, but where it belongs ....

The pope is throwing the blame,the bishops ,cardinals ,also Ive read every excuse possible in the news that the catholic church can think of..Something is truly wrong with the catholic church when  prophylactic are considered a major sin if used to prevent  pregnancy,or aids than child molestations,,and the predatory clergy are still allowed to function as such for years and years,by being transferred to do more harm....Enough excuses the pope ,cardinals.bishops  should step down ....





Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on April 29, 2010, 08:16:45 AM
Stanley 123

I like the way your, dealing with these child abuses from the catholic church,on this board . being a catholic faithful and all, your not glossing if over, or bringing up protestant abuses,Jewish ,and others  or directing  the attention elsewhere, but where it belongs ....

The pope is throwing the blame,the bishops ,cardinals ,also Ive read every excuse possible in the news that the catholic church can think of..Something is truly wrong with the catholic church when  prophylactic are considered a major sin if used to prevent  pregnancy,or aids than child molestations,,and the predatory clergy are still allowed to function as such for years and years,by being transferred to do more harm....Enough excuses the pope ,cardinals.bishops  should step down ....






once again, how embarrassing for you.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Mickey on April 29, 2010, 08:29:04 AM
That sort of earth-shattering evil.

Are you being sarcastic here?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on April 29, 2010, 08:53:21 AM
Stanley 123

I like the way your, dealing with these child abuses from the catholic church,on this board . being a catholic faithful and all, your not glossing if over, or bringing up protestant abuses,Jewish ,and others  or directing  the attention elsewhere, but where it belongs ....

The pope is throwing the blame,the bishops ,cardinals ,also Ive read every excuse possible in the news that the catholic church can think of..Something is truly wrong with the catholic church when  prophylactic are considered a major sin if used to prevent  pregnancy,or aids than child molestations,,and the predatory clergy are still allowed to function as such for years and years,by being transferred to do more harm....Enough excuses the pope ,cardinals.bishops  should step down ....

See to your own house. 

I have never met a bully that did not whine when the shoe was on the other foot. 
It was noxious to hear.

So see to your own house.

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on April 29, 2010, 08:55:41 AM
That sort of earth-shattering evil.

Are you being sarcastic here?

Actually I was seriously thinking about people who believe their priest is wrong to discipline them and who think that any discomfort or pain, even that which they bring on themselves, is a great and grievous evil wrought against them that should be removed!!

So there is irony there but there is also a reality in it that is worth noting.

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: PeterTheAleut on April 29, 2010, 05:57:21 PM
We forget that there was a time, and not all that long ago, when priests were regularly taken out and beaten up ....
Sounds like a pretty good idea when a priest has been having sex with children.

"Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."

Don't let them abuse again, but don't beat them up, either.  Let's not discard Christ while we condemn others for discarding Christ.
This mercy business should only go so far in my opinion when children's lives are at stake. I go by the Holy Scriptures which talks of millstones about the neck of the offender.
But do you have the power to send them to hell?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on April 29, 2010, 06:14:47 PM
We forget that there was a time, and not all that long ago, when priests were regularly taken out and beaten up ....
Sounds like a pretty good idea when a priest has been having sex with children.

"Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."

Don't let them abuse again, but don't beat them up, either.  Let's not discard Christ while we condemn others for discarding Christ.
This mercy business should only go so far in my opinion when children's lives are at stake. I go by the Holy Scriptures which talks of millstones about the neck of the offender.
But do you have the power to send them to hell?

Millstones sound like just the thing.  An early form of home detention.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on April 29, 2010, 06:26:02 PM
We forget that there was a time, and not all that long ago, when priests were regularly taken out and beaten up ....
Sounds like a pretty good idea when a priest has been having sex with children.

"Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."

Don't let them abuse again, but don't beat them up, either.  Let's not discard Christ while we condemn others for discarding Christ.
This mercy business should only go so far in my opinion when children's lives are at stake. I go by the Holy Scriptures which talks of millstones about the neck of the offender.
But do you have the power to send them to hell?

Millstones sound like just the thing.  An early form of home detention.

And after all these years listening to you compare the Good the Bad and the Ugly, I was sure you were going to suggest sending them to one of those Orthodox hospitals for the soul.

I guess that's only for the Good Sinners!!

To Hell with the Bad and the Ugly.

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on April 29, 2010, 06:57:40 PM
We forget that there was a time, and not all that long ago, when priests were regularly taken out and beaten up ....
Sounds like a pretty good idea when a priest has been having sex with children.

"Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."

Don't let them abuse again, but don't beat them up, either.  Let's not discard Christ while we condemn others for discarding Christ.
This mercy business should only go so far in my opinion when children's lives are at stake. I go by the Holy Scriptures which talks of millstones about the neck of the offender.
But do you have the power to send them to hell?

Millstones sound like just the thing.  An early form of home detention.

And after all these years listening to you compare the Good the Bad and the Ugly, I was sure you were going to suggest sending them to one of those Orthodox hospitals for the soul.

I guess that's only for the Good Sinners!!

To Hell with the Bad and the Ugly.

Mary

This new presumptuousness is not becoming, Mary, not becoming at all.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on April 29, 2010, 07:03:35 PM
We forget that there was a time, and not all that long ago, when priests were regularly taken out and beaten up ....
Sounds like a pretty good idea when a priest has been having sex with children.

"Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."

Don't let them abuse again, but don't beat them up, either.  Let's not discard Christ while we condemn others for discarding Christ.
This mercy business should only go so far in my opinion when children's lives are at stake. I go by the Holy Scriptures which talks of millstones about the neck of the offender.
But do you have the power to send them to hell?

Millstones sound like just the thing.  An early form of home detention.

And after all these years listening to you compare the Good the Bad and the Ugly, I was sure you were going to suggest sending them to one of those Orthodox hospitals for the soul.

I guess that's only for the Good Sinners!!

To Hell with the Bad and the Ugly.

Mary

This new presumptuousness is not becoming, Mary, not becoming at all.
She raises a good point.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on April 29, 2010, 07:12:34 PM
This mercy business should only go so far in my opinion when children's lives are at stake. I go by the Holy Scriptures which talks of millstones about the neck of the offender.
But do you have the power to send them to hell?

Millstones sound like just the thing.  An early form of home detention.

And after all these years listening to you compare the Good the Bad and the Ugly, I was sure you were going to suggest sending them to one of those Orthodox hospitals for the soul.

I guess that's only for the Good Sinners!!

To Hell with the Bad and the Ugly.

Mary

This new presumptuousness is not becoming, Mary, not becoming at all.

No presumption at all necessary!!  Only thing I needed to do was read your lips....

Out of the heart the mouth speaks.

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on April 29, 2010, 07:24:23 PM
This mercy business should only go so far in my opinion when children's lives are at stake. I go by the Holy Scriptures which talks of millstones about the neck of the offender.
But do you have the power to send them to hell?

Millstones sound like just the thing.  An early form of home detention.

And after all these years listening to you compare the Good the Bad and the Ugly, I was sure you were going to suggest sending them to one of those Orthodox hospitals for the soul.

I guess that's only for the Good Sinners!!

To Hell with the Bad and the Ugly.

Mary

This new presumptuousness is not becoming, Mary, not becoming at all.

No presumption at all necessary!!  Only thing I needed to do was read your lips....

Out of the heart the mouth speaks.

Mary

May God remove all malignancy from our hearts.

I myself would not have minded a millstone - confined to the house, free from the overwhelming social requirements, free to read and to pray.   Now I have my own millstone in the affliction of my body which has given me this wonderful freedom.  (Although I am about to go out to lunch with a Catholic priest friend!  :-)
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on April 29, 2010, 08:05:59 PM
This mercy business should only go so far in my opinion when children's lives are at stake. I go by the Holy Scriptures which talks of millstones about the neck of the offender.
But do you have the power to send them to hell?

Millstones sound like just the thing.  An early form of home detention.

And after all these years listening to you compare the Good the Bad and the Ugly, I was sure you were going to suggest sending them to one of those Orthodox hospitals for the soul.

I guess that's only for the Good Sinners!!

To Hell with the Bad and the Ugly.

Mary

This new presumptuousness is not becoming, Mary, not becoming at all.

No presumption at all necessary!!  Only thing I needed to do was read your lips....

Out of the heart the mouth speaks.

Mary

May God remove all malignancy from our hearts.

I myself would not have minded a millstone - confined to the house, free from the overwhelming social requirements, free to read and to pray.   Now I have my own millstone in the affliction of my body which has given me this wonderful freedom.  (Although I am about to go out to lunch with a Catholic priest friend!  :-)

Then forgive me.  I read too much into your comment and ignored a part of it that did not at first make sense to me!!...I am sorry  :'(
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on April 29, 2010, 10:09:06 PM
I myself would not have minded a millstone - confined to the house, free from the overwhelming social requirements, free to read and to pray.   Now I have my own millstone in the affliction of my body which has given me this wonderful freedom.  (Although I am about to go out to lunch with a Catholic priest friend!  :-)

Then forgive me.  I read too much into your comment and ignored a part of it that did not at first make sense to me!!...I am sorry  :'(

Of course I forgive you and hope you forgive me and that God forgives us both.  There truly is no malignancy in my heart.... I am burdened with a sense of facetiousness and also with a touch of irony which does not always translate well...  Couple those innate features with an aspiration to become an old curmudgeon and.... well, there's not much hope for me. :laugh:
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on April 29, 2010, 10:14:59 PM
I myself would not have minded a millstone - confined to the house, free from the overwhelming social requirements, free to read and to pray.   Now I have my own millstone in the affliction of my body which has given me this wonderful freedom.  (Although I am about to go out to lunch with a Catholic priest friend!  :-)

Then forgive me.  I read too much into your comment and ignored a part of it that did not at first make sense to me!!...I am sorry  :'(

Of course I forgive you and hope you forgive me and that God forgives us both.  There truly is no malignancy in my heart.... I am burdened with a sense of facetiousness and also with a touch of irony which does not always translate well...  Couple those innate features with an aspiration to become an old curmudgeon and.... well, there's not much hope for me. :laugh:

It's ok. It wasn't you this time.  T'was me!!  This is not a good topic for me to engage in any event.  It hits all kinds of raw nerves.

What most people forget is that many times we are abused by people we love very dearly in some fashion...So it is very hard for the wounded to participate in or watch the hate fest that is going on at the moment.

That does not excuse me from reading you so badly however and I felt like a dirty dawg till I read your note here!!  Now I feel MUCH bedder!!

M.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on April 30, 2010, 12:18:25 AM
We forget that there was a time, and not all that long ago, when priests were regularly taken out and beaten up ....
Sounds like a pretty good idea when a priest has been having sex with children.

"Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."

Don't let them abuse again, but don't beat them up, either.  Let's not discard Christ while we condemn others for discarding Christ.
This mercy business should only go so far in my opinion when children's lives are at stake. I go by the Holy Scriptures which talks of millstones about the neck of the offender.
But do you have the power to send them to hell?
What a stupid question. Of course not. I am only giving my personal opinion on it.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on April 30, 2010, 01:03:15 AM
I found i believe, the cause of the catholic churches Illness....It Started From this  era above onward and hasn't stopped even in this time and place...
. Pope Sergius III (? – 911)
(http://www.toptenz.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/people_10_sergius_III.jpg)
The son of a Roman noble and a member of the ultimately unsuccessful faction which opposed the policies of Pope Formosus, Sergius III must chiefly be understood through the biased writings of his enemies, since almost all sympathetic accounts have been destroyed.
Nevertheless, what we do have on Sergius suggests that he didn’t quite measure up to Christian standards for piety. He was accused of ordering the murders of his predecessor Pope Leo V and Antipope Christopher in prison. It is said that his mistress was the young Marozia (later to become a powerful Roman noblewoman), and it was their son who became Pope John XI in 931.
It gets weirder, though. Pope Stephen VI’s infamous Cadaver Synod had been declared void by succeeding popes, but when Sergius came to power, he voiced his displeasure with Formosus by annulling all of his recently reinstated ordinations. There is even a report that Sergius had the corpse of Formosus exhumed, tried, beheaded, and thrown into the Tiber – all over again!
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on April 30, 2010, 01:06:24 AM
More....
(http://www.toptenz.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Jean_Paul_Laurens_Le_Pape_Formose_et_Etienne_VII_1870-560x371.jpg)
Le Pape Formose et Étienne VII ("Pope Formosus and Stephen VII"), 1870. Note the latter is now called Pope Stephen VI.
Little is known about Pope Stephen VI’s personal life and background, although he was a Roman and the son of a priest named John. The reason his name stands out in church history is because of his involvement in what is perhaps the most bizarre ecclesiastical trial of all time – the Cadaver Synod of January 897.
As the name reveals, this grotesque synod was convened to put a corpse on trial. Stephen ordered it for the sole purpose of passing judgment on the freshly-exhumed body of Formosus, who had held the papacy from 891-96. Due to activities in Bulgaria which compromised his duties as bishop of Porto, Formosus had been excommunicated by then-pope John VIII (872-882), but after John VIII’s death he had reassumed his bishopric in Porto and was elected pope in 891.
Political interests regarding rightful claims to the throne of the Holy Roman Emperor resulted in animosities that created a trickle-down effect and impacted later popes. Stephen VI and the Cadaver Synod are the most famous instance of reactions to Pope Formosus.
While it is not perfectly clear who exactly instigated the trial, the fact of the matter is that Stephen ordered Formosus’s body to be disinterred and seated on a throne in the Basilica of St. John Lateran in Rome. A deacon stood next to it to act as its spokesman while Stephen lambasted it with accusations.
The corpse was condemned for transmigrating sees, committing perjury, and acting as bishop after being deposed. As punishment, his body was stripped of its vestments, the three fingers of the right hand used for benedictions were cut off, and all his former ordinations were declared null. The body was then buried, exhumed again, and finally thrown into the Tiber River.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on April 30, 2010, 01:11:10 AM
And some more...
. Pope Benedict IX (c. 1012 – 1065/85)
(http://www.toptenz.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/worst_popes_of_all_time_2.jpg)
Benedict IX, born Theophylactus of Tusculum, is known mainly for two things: 1) he held office on three separate occasions, and 2) he is the only pope who ever sold the papacy (to his own godfather, of all people).
Benedict became pontiff at a very young age, thanks to the political prowess of his father, who had managed to get the papacy reserved ahead of time for his son. With little actual training or preparation that qualified him to act as pontiff, Benedict led a highly immoral life, and was accused of various rapes, adulteries, and murders. According to St. Peter Damian, Benedict was “a demon from hell in the disguise of a priest,” and his carousing eventually caused him to be forcefully expelled from Rome.
Benedict managed to regain his throne, but then – surprise, surprise! – he was sidetracked by a prospective marriage (to his cousin) and sold the papal chair for a significant amount of money to his godfather, a priest who named himself Pope Gregory VI. His later repentance and attempt to resume his position created quite a controversy, forcing the German King Henry III to intervene. Benedict was subsequently excommunicated from the church.
“His life as a pope,” wrote Pope Victor III, “was so vile, so foul, so execrable, that I shudder to think of it.”
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: PeterTheAleut on April 30, 2010, 02:06:59 AM
Stashko,

Could you please provide links for the above three posts?  Send them to me in a PM, and I'll make sure they get added to your posts.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on April 30, 2010, 02:34:21 AM
Stashko,

Could you please provide links for the above three posts?  Send them to me in a PM, and I'll make sure they get added to your posts.

Thank you.


I had them and more for awhile in my wordpad documents on my computer...ill try to find the link to them though....and post it here or pm them to you...
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on April 30, 2010, 02:56:49 AM
More....
(http://www.toptenz.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Jean_Paul_Laurens_Le_Pape_Formose_et_Etienne_VII_1870-560x371.jpg)
Le Pape Formose et Étienne VII ("Pope Formosus and Stephen VII"), 1870. Note the latter is now called Pope Stephen VI.
Little is known about Pope Stephen VI’s personal life and background, although he was a Roman and the son of a priest named John. The reason his name stands out in church history is because of his involvement in what is perhaps the most bizarre ecclesiastical trial of all time – the Cadaver Synod of January 897.
As the name reveals, this grotesque synod was convened to put a corpse on trial. Stephen ordered it for the sole purpose of passing judgment on the freshly-exhumed body of Formosus, who had held the papacy from 891-96. Due to activities in Bulgaria which compromised his duties as bishop of Porto, Formosus had been excommunicated by then-pope John VIII (872-882), but after John VIII’s death he had reassumed his bishopric in Porto and was elected pope in 891.
Political interests regarding rightful claims to the throne of the Holy Roman Emperor resulted in animosities that created a trickle-down effect and impacted later popes. Stephen VI and the Cadaver Synod are the most famous instance of reactions to Pope Formosus.
While it is not perfectly clear who exactly instigated the trial, the fact of the matter is that Stephen ordered Formosus’s body to be disinterred and seated on a throne in the Basilica of St. John Lateran in Rome. A deacon stood next to it to act as its spokesman while Stephen lambasted it with accusations.
The corpse was condemned for transmigrating sees, committing perjury, and acting as bishop after being deposed. As punishment, his body was stripped of its vestments, the three fingers of the right hand used for benedictions were cut off, and all his former ordinations were declared null. The body was then buried, exhumed again, and finally thrown into the Tiber River.


This one was mentioned awhile back on this forum and also the picture
was posted....where i don't remember....
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Mickey on April 30, 2010, 09:19:20 AM
Deleted post
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on April 30, 2010, 09:51:36 AM
Donatism works just as well in Orthodoxy as it does in the west.

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: lubeltri on April 30, 2010, 10:20:58 AM
Since the thread is now dominated by Stashko shenanigans, I am retiring from it.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Mickey on April 30, 2010, 10:27:42 AM
I had them and more for awhile in my wordpad documents on my computer

What is the purpose of your posts?  I do not know what you are trying to show?  ???
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on April 30, 2010, 10:44:54 AM
Since the thread is now dominated by Stashko shenanigans, I am retiring from it.

Remember the Beatitudes and don't ever run from that which may feel uncomfortable.

Catholics do not run... :)

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Mickey on April 30, 2010, 11:13:33 AM
Moses, Elder of Optina

If you suffer with one who is suffering you will be reckoned among the martyrs.

If you forgive one who offends you, you will receive not only the forgiveness of your sins, but will become a child of your heavenly Father.

If you confess your sins before God, you will receive forgiveness and reward. If you pray for salvation with your heart -if only a little- you will be saved.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Schultz on April 30, 2010, 11:16:36 AM
I had them and more for awhile in my wordpad documents on my computer

What is the purpose of your posts?  I do not know what you are trying to show?  ???

Be careful.  Unless you back stashko up on everything he posts re: the RCC, he'll say that you're really not Orthodox and just a crypto-Catholic wolf in sheep's clothing who is trying to infiltrate the Orthodox Church and make it go under the evil Pope in evil Rome.  ;)
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on April 30, 2010, 11:22:31 AM
I had them and more for awhile in my wordpad documents on my computer

What is the purpose of your posts?  I do not know what you are trying to show?  ???

Be careful.  Unless you back stashko up on everything he posts re: the RCC, he'll say that you're really not Orthodox and just a crypto-Catholic wolf in sheep's clothing who is trying to infiltrate the Orthodox Church and make it go under the evil Pope in evil Rome.  ;)


Bit early in the day for getting fuddled by your zymurgist pursuit?!  :laugh:
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Schultz on April 30, 2010, 11:28:23 AM
I had them and more for awhile in my wordpad documents on my computer

What is the purpose of your posts?  I do not know what you are trying to show?  ???

Be careful.  Unless you back stashko up on everything he posts re: the RCC, he'll say that you're really not Orthodox and just a crypto-Catholic wolf in sheep's clothing who is trying to infiltrate the Orthodox Church and make it go under the evil Pope in evil Rome.  ;)


Bit early in the day for getting fuddled by your zymurgist pursuit?!  :laugh:

It's never too early for small beer, Father! ;)
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on April 30, 2010, 12:56:05 PM
I had them and more for awhile in my wordpad documents on my computer

What is the purpose of your posts?  I do not know what you are trying to show?  ???


Brother...
Would you call what's going in the catholic church around the world ,at this time  a Healthy organization or is it ill from the top down ....I would say it's sick ,the medicine for it is Holy Orthodoxy......
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Mickey on April 30, 2010, 02:14:27 PM
Brother...
Would you call what's going in the catholic church around the world ,at this time  a Healthy organization or is it ill from the top down ....I would say it's sick ,the medicine for it is Holy Orthodoxy......

We are all ill, my brother in Chirst. We are all sinners.  I am so grateful that I have found the fullness of truth in Holy Orthodoxy--there is no other place for me and my family--and I will defend the Church to my dying breath. But we cannot point fingers at other people else we resemble the pharisee instead of the publican.

Pray for the victims of abuse everywhere--that they will forgive their abusers and heal--and pray for those who victimize others--that they might repent and ask for God's mercy.

Christ is Risen!
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on April 30, 2010, 03:26:14 PM
Moses, Elder of Optina

If you suffer with one who is suffering you will be reckoned among the martyrs.

If you forgive one who offends you, you will receive not only the forgiveness of your sins, but will become a child of your heavenly Father.

If you confess your sins before God, you will receive forgiveness and reward. If you pray for salvation with your heart -if only a little- you will be saved.

What a beautiful thought. You have made my day.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 03, 2010, 02:43:38 AM
Legionaries of Christ  

The just released Vatican report (1 May 2010) on the abusive activies of the founder of the Legionaries of Christ

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1343156?eng=y
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 10, 2010, 08:06:20 PM
That sort of earth-shattering evil.

Are you being sarcastic here?

Maybe a touch of humour to lighten the thread?

(http://necropolitica.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/pedophile2.png)
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on May 10, 2010, 08:25:51 PM
Like it ..... ;D
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on May 12, 2010, 10:01:26 PM
More Bad New's On this subject....  :o(http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/ani/whistle.gif)



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100511/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_brazil_church_abuse#mwpphu-container


Brazil: Church to prepare anti-abuse guidelines.......

By STAN LEHMAN, Associated Press Writer Stan Lehman, Associated Press Writer – Tue May 11, 4:41 pm ET
SAO PAULO – The National Conference of Brazilian Bishops said Tuesday it will prepare a manual with guidelines to help bishops combat cases of child abuse committed by clergymen in the world's largest Roman Catholic country.
The manual will be prepared by a special commission comprising bishops, priests and psychologists, and church officials will begin distributing it within a few months, a conference spokesman, the Rev. Geraldo Martins, told The Associated Press.
Martins would not comment on the likely contents of the manual, one of several ideas to emerge at the bishops' annual meeting in the Brazilian capital, Brasilia.
Bishop Sinesio Bohn of the southern city of Santa Cruz do Sul was quoted by the newspaper Estado de S. Paulo on Tuesday as saying the church must study ways to avoid ordaining pedophiles.
"We must adopt scientific methods, with the help of psychologists," Bohn said.
Bishop Pedro Luiz Stringhini, from the city of Franca in Sao Paulo state, told the newspaper that child abuse committed by clergymen must receive a three-pronged treatment: "forgiveness for the sin, punishment for the crime and treatment for the pathology."
Several cases of priests allegedly abusing children have surfaced in Brazil in recent months.
Late last month, prosecutors charged a Roman Catholic priest, Father Jose Afonso, with abusing altar boys ranging from ages 12 to 16. Prosecutors said the alleged abuses occurred this year, in 2009 and in 2001 in Franca.
Also last month, 83-year-old Monsignor Luiz Marques Barbosa was detained in northeastern Brazil for allegedly abusing at least three boys after being caught on videotape having sex with a young man, a former altar boy. Barbosa is under house arrest while authorities investigate. Two other priests in the same archdiocese are also accused of abuses.
Last week, a Brazilian archbishop said adolescents are "spontaneously homosexual" and in need of guidance.
The newspaper O Globo quoted Archbishop Dadeus Grings of Porto Alegre as saying: "Society today is pedophile. That is the problem. So, people easily fall into it. And the fact it is denounced is a good sign."
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on May 12, 2010, 10:10:35 PM
   And some more Bad New's...on this subject....(http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/ani/whistle.gif)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100512/ap_on_re_eu/eu_church_abuse_spainhttp://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100512/ap_on_re_eu/eu_church_abuse_spain

Spanish order investigated for alleged sex abuse
AP – Wed May 12, 12:01 pm ET

MADRID - A Spanish court is investigating allegations that members of a Catholic religious order sexually abused disabled residents of a facility run by the congregation, a diocese spokesman said Wednesday. Full Story »

By CIARAN GILES, Associated Press Writer Ciaran Giles, Associated Press Writer – Wed May 12, 12:01 pm ET
MADRID – A Spanish court is investigating allegations that members of a Catholic religious order sexually abused disabled residents of a facility run by the congregation, a diocese spokesman said Wednesday.
Jose Juan Jimenez, spokesman for the diocese of Cordoba in southern Spain, said the diocese has been cooperating fully with the investigation since being informed of it a month ago by court officials.
Jimenez told the AP that the case involved possible sexual abuse and mistreatment of patients at a home for the disabled run by the Franciscan Brothers of the White Cross in Cordoba.
The newspaper El Pais said two members of the order were brought before a Cordoba court Wednesday and named as suspects. The paper said they were ordered to stay away from the center.
Jimenez said he had no details as to what had happened at the court, and calls to the court and the religious order went unanswered.
The Cordoba Diocese issued a statement saying that, since hearing of the allegations, it has acted "with the welfare of the victims always in mind and taking the necessary measures to clarify responsibility, should there be any."
El Pais and other media outlets said that, in a separate case, a lay worker at the home has been imprisoned for several months on charges of sexually abusing a patient, while the religious order paid the victim's family euro5,000 ($6,343) in compensation.
Spain has been largely spared in the church sex abuse scandal that has rocked other European countries such as Germany and Ireland, but this would be this month's second abuse case involving a religious order in Spain.
On May 4, the Barefoot Carmelites order said it had reported to prosecutors allegations that one of its monks abused a minor some years ago in the eastern town of Burriana.
Spanish media said it was the first time a Catholic Church group in Spain has acted on an appeal that Pope Benedict XVI issued in March for church officials to report abuse cases to authorities. The Spanish Bishops Conference declined to comment on the case.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Cosmos on May 13, 2010, 12:39:39 AM
Brothers and Sisters in Christ:

Please forgive me if I am speaking out of turn here, but it seems obvious to me that these deplorable abuses are but a reflection of the kind of ungodliness that was predicted long ago to become increasingly manifest as the time of Christ's Second Coming drew near. As such, perhaps these events are clear signs that it is much later than we think, and that the necessity for each of us to put our own spiritual state in righteous order is more urgent than we may like to think.  

More than 2 billion people worldwide confess themselves to be Christian, accounting for a full third of the overall human population on the planet. This is more than twice the number of those who claim to be Muslims, or Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist collectively, who are nearly tied in second and third place respectively. Approximately half of the world's Christians are...wait for it...yep, you probably guessed it...Roman Catholic!   

Should it be any great surprise then that Satan would again target those who represent the visible institutions of his greatest nemesis, Christianity, especially those associated with the world's largest Christian confession, the Roman Catholic Church? Go figure! Who would have expected such a thing, right?  

This is certainly not to say that the despicable actions that have been committed by some Roman Catholic clergymen, or the efforts of others within their church to conceal their crimes or to allow them to perpetuate same should be excused. I am not suggesting that the offending parties shouldn't be held to account for their sinful actions. But at the same time, however, I don't think this should be done by gang piling on the RCC at the expense of the many, many millions of decent, God fearing Roman Catholics, both laity and clergy, who bear no responsibility for the wrongful actions of a relatively few among them.  

As Christians, we are officially in the prayer and forgiveness business, as it were, and should thus earnestly pray for the spiritual healing of the innocent victims and their perpetrators alike. Out of compassion for our troubled and suffering brethren, we should implore Almighty God to mercifully bless both with an abundant share of His healing grace and restorative spiritual power, in the name of Jesus, for the sake of His Glory unto the ages of ages.

Perhaps in this way, the sinister temptations and evil machinations of Satan will ultimately be fully exposed and destroyed as a part of the final victory of good over evil that will culminate in Christ's triumphant return. I exhort everyone to join me in praying for this outcome in behalf of the greatest good of all.  

Cosmos
  
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 15, 2010, 05:50:38 PM
Stashko,

Could you please provide links for the above three posts?  Send them to me in a PM, and I'll make sure they get added to your posts.

Thank you.


I had them and more for awhile in my wordpad documents on my computer...ill try to find the link to them though....and post it here or pm them to you...

Stashko, it's been over two weeks since I made this request for sources.  Since you posted images and blocks of text from another Web site, and since the absence of any links giving credit to your sources makes you potentially liable for plagiarism, it is very important that you not forget my request.  You need to send to one of the moderators links to the Web pages from which you copied this material.  (See these posts:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,26437.msg429327.html#msg429327, http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,26437.msg429328.html#msg429328, http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,26437.msg429329.html#msg429329 )  Failure to do so within the next 72 hours will result in you being placed on Post Moderation for plagiarism.  This is not a game.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on May 16, 2010, 05:22:10 AM
Link....Many Thanks !To Our Saintly Fr.Ambrose aka Irish Hermit ,For Finding the link  For me .It's been awhile visiting that web page.... Though the deeds are burned in my memory How Awful the western Appostolic succesors could be....http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-worst-popes-in-history.php
Might as well post the rest of them.....there in my wordpad documents....Watch this thread...
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on May 16, 2010, 09:41:08 AM
Link....Many Thanks !To Our Saintly Fr.Ambrose aka Irish Hermit ,For Finding the link  For me .It's been awhile visiting that web page.... Though the deeds are burned in my memory How Awful the western Appostolic succesors could be....http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-worst-popes-in-history.php
Might as well post the rest of them.....there in my wordpad documents....Watch this thread...


You should start new thread.

But while you are having fun remember that Orthodoxy does accept the Apostolic Succession from the west, so watch those fingers pointing back at you.

And remember that only in your perfection will people who think like you ever find humility.

M.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 16, 2010, 10:02:31 AM

But while you are having fun remember that Orthodoxy does accept the Apostolic Succession from the west,

Yes, it does, for Roman Catholics and Anglicans.  But that statement has to be nuanced considerably.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on May 16, 2010, 10:40:38 AM

But while you are having fun remember that Orthodoxy does accept the Apostolic Succession from the west,

Yes, it does, for Roman Catholics and Anglicans.  But that statement has to be nuanced considerably.

I didn't know you brought Anglican clergy in by vesting and confession...That is very interesting but then you are glued at the hip to the WCC.  Glad we stayed far away from all that.  :P

M.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 16, 2010, 10:47:17 AM
Might as well post the rest of them.....
Please don't.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 16, 2010, 11:00:09 AM

I didn't know you brought Anglican clergy in by vesting and confession...

Generally we don't although it was trialed, briefly and very unsuccessfully by the Greek Archdiocese of Australia at the time of the Anglican ordination of women.  So Anglicans are really always ordained, whereas Catholics may be received in their rank by economy which valourises their Catholic Orders or they may be received by baptism in which case they are devoid of priesthood.  The whole matter of reception in Orthodoxy is very fluid, and based on what is best for the individual converting and for the Church.

One of the wonderful things about Orthodoxy is that it is content to allow some things to remain in gray areas rather than nailing them down in black and white.   These gray areas allow room for the Holy Spirit to work freely within the Church, so that bishops may make decisions under His guidance (sometimes seemingly contrary decisions) so that in all things Christ may be glorified and salvation extended to the world.

Here is something from Metropolitan Anthony Khrapovitsky, one of Russia's eminent theologians prior to the Revolution, Metropolitan of Kiev, and later, the First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

 "Why Anglican Clergy Could Be Received in Their Orders"
 http://anglicanhistory.org/orthodoxy/khrapovitsky_orders1927.html

 The conclusion:

"Thus the adoption of one or the other mode of reception for those of
 other confessions who enter the Church (that is, heretics or
 schismatics) depends on ecclesiastical economy, on the judgment of the
 local bishops and the Councils, and on the existence of the outward
 form of the sacraments of baptism, chrismation and orders in the
 communities from which the applicants come."

"Therefore, in our opinion, Anglicans may be admitted by the third
 rite, especially in view of the sincere and humble aspiration of many
 of them to be united to our holy Church."
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on May 16, 2010, 11:09:18 AM

I didn't know you brought Anglican clergy in by vesting and confession...

Generally we don't although it was trialed, briefly and very unsuccessfully by the Greek Archdiocese of Australia at the time of the Anglican ordination of women.  So Anglicans are really always ordained, whereas Catholics may be received in their rank by economy which valourises their Catholic Orders or they may be received by baptism in which case they are devoid of priesthood.  The whole matter of reception in Orthodoxy is very fluid, and based on what is best for the individual converting and for the Church.

One of the wonderful things about Orthodoxy is that it is content to allow some things to remain in gray areas rather than nailing them down in black and white.   These gray areas allow room for the Holy Spirit to work freely within the Church, so that bishops may make decisions under His guidance (sometimes seemingly contrary decisions) so that in all things Christ may be glorified and salvation extended to the world.

Here is something from Metropolitan Anthony Khrapovitsky, one of Russia's eminent theologians prior to the Revolution, Metropolitan of Kiev, and later, the First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

 "Why Anglican Clergy Could Be Received in Their Orders"
 http://anglicanhistory.org/orthodoxy/khrapovitsky_orders1927.html

 The conclusion:

"Thus the adoption of one or the other mode of reception for those of
 other confessions who enter the Church (that is, heretics or
 schismatics) depends on ecclesiastical economy, on the judgment of the
 local bishops and the Councils, and on the existence of the outward
 form of the sacraments of baptism, chrismation and orders in the
 communities from which the applicants come."

"Therefore, in our opinion, Anglicans may be admitted by the third
 rite, especially in view of the sincere and humble aspiration of many
 of them to be united to our holy Church."

Gray areas, eh?   8)  Yes indeed.  Gray areas.  I like that Father.  That's why we lost those battles against the convert priests on the Orthodox Forum over real presence in the Eucharist. 
They were all FIRMLY entrenched in one of them Gray Areas!!

You can have most of 'em!!

M.

Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 16, 2010, 11:29:14 AM
[
Gray areas, eh?   8)  Yes indeed.  Gray areas.  I like that Father.  That's why we lost those battles against the convert priests on the Orthodox Forum over real presence in the Eucharist. 
They were all FIRMLY entrenched in one of them Gray Areas!!

You can have most of 'em!!

 

You also said that we lost in a previous message but I am not really sure that we did. I had positive feedback from priests at the time and an OCA bishop wrote to say they knew of this problem with untrained convert priests and planned to address it..

But what is the percentage of Catholic priests these days who have no belief in the presence of Christ in the Eucharist, not even His physical body and blood, let alone His soul and divinity. You are very welcome to those clergy!!
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on May 16, 2010, 11:33:01 AM
[
Gray areas, eh?   8)  Yes indeed.  Gray areas.  I like that Father.  That's why we lost those battles against the convert priests on the Orthodox Forum over real presence in the Eucharist. 
They were all FIRMLY entrenched in one of them Gray Areas!!

You can have most of 'em!!

 

You also said that we lost in a previous message but I am not really sure that we did. I had positive feedback from priests at the time and an OCA bishop wrote to say they knew of this problem with untrained convert priests and planned to address it..

But what is the percentage of Catholic priests these days who have no belief in the presence of Christ in the Eucharist, not even His physical body and blood, let alone His soul and divinity. You are very welcome to those clergy!!

LOL...from what I am hearing on the grapevine, they are moving to Orthodoxy because they prefer them Gray areas!!  And you are getting the un-happy faithful as well who also like the Gray Areas.  And soon you'll be ordaining them as priests and bishops and American Orthodoxy will be more than ever the Orthodoxy of Gray Areas.

I congratulate you, and your Gray Areas!!

M.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 16, 2010, 11:47:55 AM
[
Gray areas, eh?   8)  Yes indeed.  Gray areas.  I like that Father.  That's why we lost those battles against the convert priests on the Orthodox Forum over real presence in the Eucharist. 
They were all FIRMLY entrenched in one of them Gray Areas!!

You can have most of 'em!!

 

You also said that we lost in a previous message but I am not really sure that we did. I had positive feedback from priests at the time and an OCA bishop wrote to say they knew of this problem with untrained convert priests and planned to address it..

But what is the percentage of Catholic priests these days who have no belief in the presence of Christ in the Eucharist, not even His physical body and blood, let alone His soul and divinity. You are very welcome to those clergy!!

LOL...from what I am hearing on the grapevine, they are moving to Orthodoxy because they prefer them Gray areas!!  And you are getting the un-happy faithful as well who also like the Gray Areas.  And soon you'll be ordaining them as priests and bishops and American Orthodoxy will be more than ever the Orthodoxy of Gray Areas.

I congratulate you, and your Gray Areas!!

Are you really an Eastern Catholic?   The ones I know have an appreciation for the use of economy in church life.  Do you not discuss these things with them?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 16, 2010, 11:55:28 AM
[
Gray areas, eh?   8)  Yes indeed.  Gray areas.  I like that Father.  That's why we lost those battles against the convert priests on the Orthodox Forum over real presence in the Eucharist. 
They were all FIRMLY entrenched in one of them Gray Areas!!

You can have most of 'em!!

 

You also said that we lost in a previous message but I am not really sure that we did. I had positive feedback from priests at the time and an OCA bishop wrote to say they knew of this problem with untrained convert priests and planned to address it..

But what is the percentage of Catholic priests these days who have no belief in the presence of Christ in the Eucharist, not even His physical body and blood, let alone His soul and divinity. You are very welcome to those clergy!!

LOL...from what I am hearing on the grapevine, they are moving to Orthodoxy because they prefer them Gray areas!!  And you are getting the un-happy faithful as well who also like the Gray Areas.  And soon you'll be ordaining them as priests and bishops and American Orthodoxy will be more than ever the Orthodoxy of Gray Areas.

I congratulate you, and your Gray Areas!!

Let us hope that the Russians will establish an academy for priests in the States as they have recently done in Paris to train good clergy for Western Europe.  It's just what America needs.  Maybe our seminarains could attend there as well.

I recall at the time when ROCA was discussing union with Moscow a few years back and Moscow clergy started to visit the States.  They expressed their dismay at the low level of theological education they encountered among many American clergy.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on May 16, 2010, 11:58:12 AM
[
Gray areas, eh?   8)  Yes indeed.  Gray areas.  I like that Father.  That's why we lost those battles against the convert priests on the Orthodox Forum over real presence in the Eucharist. 
They were all FIRMLY entrenched in one of them Gray Areas!!

You can have most of 'em!!

 

You also said that we lost in a previous message but I am not really sure that we did. I had positive feedback from priests at the time and an OCA bishop wrote to say they knew of this problem with untrained convert priests and planned to address it..

But what is the percentage of Catholic priests these days who have no belief in the presence of Christ in the Eucharist, not even His physical body and blood, let alone His soul and divinity. You are very welcome to those clergy!!

LOL...from what I am hearing on the grapevine, they are moving to Orthodoxy because they prefer them Gray areas!!  And you are getting the un-happy faithful as well who also like the Gray Areas.  And soon you'll be ordaining them as priests and bishops and American Orthodoxy will be more than ever the Orthodoxy of Gray Areas.

I congratulate you, and your Gray Areas!!

Are you really an Eastern Catholic?   The ones I know have an appreciation for the use of economy in church life.  Do you not discuss these things with them?

The Gray Areas have many advocates, both in Orthodoxy and in the Catholic Church.

I tend to advocate in the areas where sinners are most likely to become ensnared and can find no way out because the Guardians of the Gray Areas are eager to keep them penned in.

M.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 16, 2010, 12:05:10 PM
[
Gray areas, eh?   8)  Yes indeed.  Gray areas.  I like that Father.  That's why we lost those battles against the convert priests on the Orthodox Forum over real presence in the Eucharist. 
They were all FIRMLY entrenched in one of them Gray Areas!!

You can have most of 'em!!

 

You also said that we lost in a previous message but I am not really sure that we did. I had positive feedback from priests at the time and an OCA bishop wrote to say they knew of this problem with untrained convert priests and planned to address it..

But what is the percentage of Catholic priests these days who have no belief in the presence of Christ in the Eucharist, not even His physical body and blood, let alone His soul and divinity. You are very welcome to those clergy!!

LOL...from what I am hearing on the grapevine, they are moving to Orthodoxy because they prefer them Gray areas!!  And you are getting the un-happy faithful as well who also like the Gray Areas.  And soon you'll be ordaining them as priests and bishops and American Orthodoxy will be more than ever the Orthodoxy of Gray Areas.

I congratulate you, and your Gray Areas!!

Are you really an Eastern Catholic?   The ones I know have an appreciation for the use of economy in church life.  Do you not discuss these things with them?

The Gray Areas have many advocates, both in Orthodoxy and in the Catholic Church.

I tend to advocate in the areas where sinners are most likely to become ensnared and can find no way out because the Guardians of the Gray Areas are eager to keep them penned in.

M.

You're just being contrary.  Looking back over your participation on the forum I would say that you are a dab hand with the Gray Areas. 
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on May 16, 2010, 07:04:46 PM
Vatican still trying  deflect blame to others and not itself..... ;D



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100516/ap_on_re_eu/eu_vatican_s_defense_2





AP Exclusive: Vatican details US sex abuse defense
           Buzz up!44 votes Send
Email IM .Share
Facebook Twitter Delicious Digg Fark Newsvine Reddit StumbleUpon Technorati Yahoo! Bookmarks .Print .. AP – Pope Benedict XVI blesses faithful from the window of his studio overlooking St. Peter's Square, at the …
. Slideshow:Papacy and the Vatican .


(http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20100516/capt.a9ec0b33690c423c8d27ce9e437608ef-b7c51909e8964555851ec323fff8a0cc-0.jpg?x=213&y=165&xc=1&yc=1&wc=409&hc=317&q=85&sig=H3qebq2aqiAFZ2..jE4JHQ--)

By NICOLE WINFIELD, Associated Press Writer Nicole Winfield, Associated Press Writer – Sun May 16, 3:22 pm ET
VATICAN CITY – The Vatican on Monday will make its most detailed argument yet for why it is not liable for bishops who allowed priests to molest children in the U.S., in a motion that could affect other efforts to sue the Holy See in American courts, The Associated Press has learned.

In a motion to dismiss a lawsuit on jurisdictional grounds, the Holy See is expected to argue that a key Vatican document calling for secrecy in church trials for sex abuse cases was not, as victims' lawyers say, proof of a Vatican-orchestrated cover up. The Vatican's U.S. attorney, Jeffrey Lena, said Sunday there was no evidence the document was even known to the archdiocese in question — much less used.

In addition, the Holy See is expected to assert that bishops aren't Vatican employees because they aren't paid by Rome, don't act on Rome's behalf and aren't controlled day-to-day by the pope — factors courts use to determine whether employers are liable for the actions of their workers, Lena told the AP.





He said he would suggest to the court that it should avoid using the religious nature of the relationship between bishops and the pope altogether as a basis for civil liability, because it entangles the court in an analysis of complicated religious doctrine that dates back to the apostles.

The Holy See is trying to fend off the first U.S. case to reach the stage of determining whether victims actually have a claim against the Vatican itself for negligence for the failure of bishops to alert police or the public about Roman Catholic priests who molested children.

The case was filed in 2004 in district court in Louisville, Kentucky, by three men who claim they were abused by priests decades ago and claim negligence by the Vatican. Their attorney, William McMurry, is seeking class-action status for the case, saying there are thousands of victims across the country.

The Vatican's motion is being closely watched as the clerical abuse scandal swirls around the Holy See, since the court's eventual decision could have implications for a new lawsuit naming top Vatican officials that was recently filed in Wisconsin and another one in Oregon is pending before the Supreme Court.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on May 16, 2010, 08:14:11 PM
Is your vision really that dim?

In the first place the petition on the part of the Vatican is accurate and must be put forward and IF they loose then every other religious organization including Orthodoxy is in serious jeopardy of being treated as a secular bureaucracy.

The money that the Vatican has been sending to eastern Europe and Russia for nearly 22 years now will dry up.  There will be no money for Greece to help there.

And you will indeed have your wish.

Better start picking out the color of your turban if the Vatican is weakened in all of this.

You do not really think that the warming that's been going on with the Vatican and Orthodox leaders is some silly expression of brotherly love do you.  We know the drill.  Nobody on the Catholic side is fooled.  Orthodoxy talks about sharing "moral" concerns when Orthodox morality is nothing like Catholic morality.  We know what they want to "share" and it ain't teaching on contraception and abortion or divorce!!

M.

Vatican still trying  deflect blame to others and not itself..... ;D



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100516/ap_on_re_eu/eu_vatican_s_defense_2





AP Exclusive: Vatican details US sex abuse defense
           Buzz up!44 votes Send
Email IM .Share
Facebook Twitter Delicious Digg Fark Newsvine Reddit StumbleUpon Technorati Yahoo! Bookmarks .Print .. AP – Pope Benedict XVI blesses faithful from the window of his studio overlooking St. Peter's Square, at the …
. Slideshow:Papacy and the Vatican .


(http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20100516/capt.a9ec0b33690c423c8d27ce9e437608ef-b7c51909e8964555851ec323fff8a0cc-0.jpg?x=213&y=165&xc=1&yc=1&wc=409&hc=317&q=85&sig=H3qebq2aqiAFZ2..jE4JHQ--)

By NICOLE WINFIELD, Associated Press Writer Nicole Winfield, Associated Press Writer – Sun May 16, 3:22 pm ET
VATICAN CITY – The Vatican on Monday will make its most detailed argument yet for why it is not liable for bishops who allowed priests to molest children in the U.S., in a motion that could affect other efforts to sue the Holy See in American courts, The Associated Press has learned.

In a motion to dismiss a lawsuit on jurisdictional grounds, the Holy See is expected to argue that a key Vatican document calling for secrecy in church trials for sex abuse cases was not, as victims' lawyers say, proof of a Vatican-orchestrated cover up. The Vatican's U.S. attorney, Jeffrey Lena, said Sunday there was no evidence the document was even known to the archdiocese in question — much less used.

In addition, the Holy See is expected to assert that bishops aren't Vatican employees because they aren't paid by Rome, don't act on Rome's behalf and aren't controlled day-to-day by the pope — factors courts use to determine whether employers are liable for the actions of their workers, Lena told the AP.





He said he would suggest to the court that it should avoid using the religious nature of the relationship between bishops and the pope altogether as a basis for civil liability, because it entangles the court in an analysis of complicated religious doctrine that dates back to the apostles.

The Holy See is trying to fend off the first U.S. case to reach the stage of determining whether victims actually have a claim against the Vatican itself for negligence for the failure of bishops to alert police or the public about Roman Catholic priests who molested children.

The case was filed in 2004 in district court in Louisville, Kentucky, by three men who claim they were abused by priests decades ago and claim negligence by the Vatican. Their attorney, William McMurry, is seeking class-action status for the case, saying there are thousands of victims across the country.

The Vatican's motion is being closely watched as the clerical abuse scandal swirls around the Holy See, since the court's eventual decision could have implications for a new lawsuit naming top Vatican officials that was recently filed in Wisconsin and another one in Oregon is pending before the Supreme Court.

Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 16, 2010, 08:48:44 PM

Is your vision really that dim?

Better start picking out the color of your turban if the Vatican is weakened in all of this.


Is *your* vision really so dim?  Surely you know that Catholic Europe is facing a Muslim take-over.  In Belgium the Muslims have accounted for more than 50% of the births for 6 years.  The most commonly registered baby name in Catholic Belgium is now Muhammed!! 
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 16, 2010, 08:54:51 PM
This Will Give You Cold Chills!
Geert Wilders is a Dutch Member of Parliament.


(http://inthefrozennorth.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/geert-wilders-03.jpg)

In a generation or two, the US will ask itself: Who lost Europe ?'

Here is the speech of Geert Wilders, Chairman, Party for Freedom, the Netherlands , at the Four Seasons, New York , introducing an Alliance of Patriots and announcing the Facing Jihad Conference in Jerusalem .

Dear friends,

Thank you very much for inviting me.

I come to America with a mission.  All is not well in the old world.  There is a tremendous danger looming, and it is very difficult to be optimistic.  We might be in the final stages of the Islamization of Europe.  This not only is a clear and present danger to the future of Europe itself, it is a threat to America and the sheer survival of the West.  The United States as the last bastion of Western civilization, facing an Islamic Europe.

First I will describe the situation on the ground in Europe .  Then, I will say a few things about Islam.  To close I will tell you about a meeting in Jerusalem .

The Europe you know is changing.

You have probably seen the landmarks.  But in all of these cities, sometimes a few blocks away from your tourist destination, there is another world.  It is the world of the parallel society created by Muslim mass-migration.

All throughout Europe a new reality is rising: entire Muslim neighborhoods where very few indigenous people reside or are even seen.  And if they are, they might regret it.  This goes for the police as well.  It's the world of head scarves, where women walk around in figureless tents, with baby strollers and a group of children.  Their husbands, or slaveholders if you prefer, walk three steps ahead.  With mosques on many street corners.  The shops have signs you and I cannot read.  You will be hard-pressed to find any economic activity.  These are Muslim ghettos controlled by religious fanatics.  These are Muslim neighborhoods, and they are mushrooming in every city across Europe .  These are the building-blocks for territorial control of increasingly larger portions of Europe , street by street, neighborhood by neighborhood, city by city.

There are now thousands of mosques throughout Europe .  With larger congregations than there are in churches.  And in every European city there are plans to build super-mosques that will dwarf every church in the region.  Clearly, the signal is: we rule.

Many European cities are already one-quarter Muslim: just take Amsterdam , Marseille and Malmo in Sweden .  In many cities the majority of the under-18 population is Muslim.  Paris is now surrounded by a ring of Muslim neighborhoods.  Mohammed is the most popular name among boys in many cities.

In some elementary schools in Amsterdam the farm can no longer be mentioned, because that would also mean mentioning the pig, and that would be an insult to Muslims.

Many state schools in Belgium and Denmark only serve halal food to all pupils.  In once-tolerant Amsterdam gays are beaten up almost exclusively by Muslims.  Non-Muslim women routinely hear 'whore, whore'.  Satellite dishes are not pointed to local TV stations, but to stations in the country of origin.

In France school teachers are advised to avoid authors deemed offensive to Muslims, including Voltaire and Diderot; the same is increasingly true of Darwin .  The history of the Holocaust can no longer be taught because of Muslim sensitivity.

In England sharia courts are now officially part of the British legal system. Many neighborhoods in France are no-go areas for women without head scarves.  Last week a man almost died after being beaten up by Muslims in Brussels , because he was drinking during the Ramadan.

Jews are fleeing France in record numbers, on the run for the worst wave of anti-Semitism since World War II.  French is now commonly spoken on the streets of Tel Aviv and Netanya , Israel .  I could go on forever with stories like this.  Stories about Islamization.

A total of fifty-four million Muslims now live in Europe .  San Diego University recently calculated that a staggering 25 percent of the population in Europe will be Muslim just 12 years from now.  Bernhard Lewis has predicted a Muslim majority by the end of this century.

Now these are just numbers.  And the numbers would not be threatening if the Muslim-immigrants had a strong desire to assimilate.  But there are few signs of that.  The Pew Research Center reported that half of French Muslims see their loyalty to Islam as greater than their loyalty to France .  One-third of French Muslims do not object to suicide attacks.  The British Centre for Social Cohesion reported that one-third of British Muslim students are in favor of a worldwide caliphate.  Muslims demand what they call 'respect'.  And this is how we give them respect.  We have Muslim official state holidays.

The Christian-Democratic attorney general is willing to accept sharia in the Netherlands if there is a Muslim majority.  We have cabinet members with passports from Morocco and Turkey .

Muslim demands are supported by unlawful behavior, ranging from petty crimes and random violence, for example against ambulance workers and bus drivers, to small-scale riots.  Paris has seen its uprising in the low-income suburbs, the banlieus.  I call the perpetrators 'settlers'.  Because that is what they are.  They do not come to integrate into our societies; they come to integrate our society into their Dar-al-Islam.  Therefore, they are settlers.

Much of this street violence I mentioned is directed exclusively against non-Muslims, forcing many native people to leave their neighborhoods, their cities, their countries.  Moreover, Muslims are now a swing vote not to be ignored.

The second thing you need to know is the importance of Mohammed the prophet.  His behavior is an example to all Muslims and cannot be criticized.  Now, if Mohammed had been a man of peace, let us say like Ghandi and Mother Theresa wrapped in one, there would be no problem.  But Mohammed was a warlord, a mass murderer, a pedophile, and had several marriages - at the same time.  Islamic tradition tells us how he fought in battles, how he had his enemies murdered and even had prisoners of war executed.  Mohammed himself slaughtered the Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza.  If it is good for Islam, it is good.  If it is bad for Islam, it is bad.

Let no one fool you about Islam being a religion.  Sure, it has a god, and a here-after, and 72 virgins.  But in its essence Islam is a political ideology.  It is a system that lays down detailed rules for society and the life of every person.  Islam wants to dictate every aspect of life.  Islam means 'submission'.  Islam is not compatible with freedom and democracy, because what it strives for is sharia.  If you want to compare Islam to anything, compare it to communism or national-socialism, these are all totalitarian ideologies.

Now you know why Winston Churchill called Islam 'the most retrograde force in the world', and why he compared Mein Kampf to the Quran.  The public has wholeheartedly accepted the Palestinian narrative, and sees Israel as the aggressor.  I have lived in this country and visited it dozens of times.  I support Israel .  First, because it is the Jewish homeland after two thousand years of exile up to and including Auschwitz, second because it is a democracy, and third because Israel is our first line of defense.

This tiny country is situated on the fault line of jihad, frustrating Islam's territorial advance.  Israel is facing the front lines of jihad, like Kashmir, Kosovo, the Philippines , Southern Thailand, Darfur in Sudan , Lebanon , and Aceh in Indonesia .  Israel is simply in the way.  The same way West-Berlin was during the Cold War.

The war against Israel is not a war against Israel .  It is a war against the West.  It is jihad.  Israel is simply receiving the blows that are meant for all of us.  If there would have been no Israel , Islamic imperialism would have found other venues to release its energy and its desire for conquest.  Thanks to Israeli parents who send their children to the army and lay awake at night, parents in Europe and America can sleep well and dream, unaware of the dangers looming.

Many in Europe argue in favor of abandoning Israel in order to address the grievances of our Muslim minorities.  But if Israel were, God forbid, to go down, it would not bring any solace to the West It would not mean our Muslim minorities would all of a sudden change their behavior, and accept our values.  On the contrary, the end of Israel would give enormous encouragement to the forces of Islam.  They would, and rightly so, see the demise of Israel as proof that the West is weak, and doomed.  The end of Israel would not mean the end of our problems with Islam, but only the beginning.  It would mean the start of the final battle for world domination.  If they can get Israel , they can get everything.  So-called journalists volunteer to label any and all critics of Islamization as a 'right-wing extremists' or 'racists'.  In my country, the Netherlands , 60 percent of the population now sees the mass immigration of Muslims as the number one policy mistake since World War II.  And another 60 percent sees Islam as the biggest threat.  Yet there is a greater danger than terrorist attacks, the scenario of America as the last man standing.  The lights may go out in Europe faster than you can imagine.  An Islamic Europe means a Europe without freedom and democracy, an economic wasteland, an intellectual nightmare, and a loss of military might for America - as its allies will turn into enemies, enemies with atomic bombs.  With an Islamic Europe, it would be up to America alone to preserve the heritage of Rome , Athens and Jerusalem .

Dear friends, liberty is the most precious of gifts.  My generation never had to fight for this freedom, it was offered to us on a silver platter, by people who fought for it with their lives.  All throughout Europe , American cemeteries remind us of the young boys who never made it home, and whose memory we cherish.  My generation does not own this freedom; we are merely its custodians.  We can only hand over this hard won liberty to Europe 's children in the same state in which it was offered to us.  We cannot strike a deal with mullahs and imams.  Future generations would never forgive us.  We cannot squander our liberties.  We simply do not have the right to do so.

We have to take the necessary action now to stop this Islamic stupidity from destroying the free world that we know.
 
http://europenews.dk/en/node/14505
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on May 16, 2010, 09:52:57 PM

Is your vision really that dim?

Better start picking out the color of your turban if the Vatican is weakened in all of this.


Is *your* vision really so dim?  Surely you know that Catholic Europe is facing a Muslim take-over.  In Belgium the Muslims have accounted for more than 50% of the births for 6 years.  The most commonly registered baby name in Catholic Belgium is now Muhammed!! 

Eh?....

I think I am the one who mentioned that if the Vatican falls y'all will be picking out the color of your turbans for real.

Maybe you didn't read that far.

M.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on May 16, 2010, 10:05:30 PM

Is your vision really that dim?

Better start picking out the color of your turban if the Vatican is weakened in all of this.


Is *your* vision really so dim?  Surely you know that Catholic Europe is facing a Muslim take-over.  In Belgium the Muslims have accounted for more than 50% of the births for 6 years.  The most commonly registered baby name in Catholic Belgium is now Muhammed!! 

Eh?....

I think I am the one who mentioned that if the Vatican falls y'all will be picking out the color of your turbans for real.

Maybe you didn't read that far.

M.


Mary  Mary...Some Oriental orthodox clergy wear turban's  i see nothing wrong with it do you even some, of the schismatic oriental catholic clergy do as well......   


A joke i read on line...When a Muslim celebrates the coming of age ,He removes his diaper and wraps it around his head...                                                                                                                                                       
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on May 16, 2010, 10:14:06 PM

Is your vision really that dim?

Better start picking out the color of your turban if the Vatican is weakened in all of this.


Is *your* vision really so dim?  Surely you know that Catholic Europe is facing a Muslim take-over.  In Belgium the Muslims have accounted for more than 50% of the births for 6 years.  The most commonly registered baby name in Catholic Belgium is now Muhammed!! 

Eh?....

I think I am the one who mentioned that if the Vatican falls y'all will be picking out the color of your turbans for real.

Maybe you didn't read that far.

M.


Mary  Mary...Some Oriental orthodox clergy wear turban's  i see nothing wrong with it do you even some, of the schismatic oriental catholic clergy do as well......   


A joke i read on line...When a Muslim celebrates the coming of age ,He removes his diaper and wraps it around his head...                                                                                                                                                       

 :angel:  They should be the most comfortable in the new world order then!!

M.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Cosmos on May 16, 2010, 10:30:20 PM

Is your vision really that dim?

Better start picking out the color of your turban if the Vatican is weakened in all of this.


Is *your* vision really so dim?  Surely you know that Catholic Europe is facing a Muslim take-over.  In Belgium the Muslims have accounted for more than 50% of the births for 6 years.  The most commonly registered baby name in Catholic Belgium is now Muhammed!! 

Eh?....

I think I am the one who mentioned that if the Vatican falls y'all will be picking out the color of your turbans for real.

Maybe you didn't read that far.

M.


Mary  Mary...Some Oriental orthodox clergy wear turban's  i see nothing wrong with it do you even some, of the schismatic oriental catholic clergy do as well......   


A joke i read on line...When a Muslim celebrates the coming of age ,He removes his diaper and wraps it around his head...                                                                                                                                                       

 :angel:  They should be the most comfortable in the new world order then!!

Good grief! :o

May God forbid that real Christians anywhere would find a New Age New World Order acceptable, either now or ever!  :(

Cosmos


Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 17, 2010, 04:14:51 AM

Vatican still trying  deflect blame to others and not itself..... ;D

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100516/ap_on_re_eu/eu_vatican_s_defense_2


AP Exclusive: Vatican details US sex abuse defense
         
In addition, the Holy See is expected to assert that bishops aren't Vatican employees because they aren't paid by Rome, don't act on Rome's behalf and aren't controlled day-to-day by the pope — factors courts use to determine whether employers are liable for the actions of their workers, Lena told the AP.


Outrageous!   The Pope pretending he is not responsible for the bishops.  An outright denial of the Code of Canon Law.

Look at the exact opposite point of view from Cardinal Iniguez (Alonso's bishop, I think.)  He is likely to be sent by thje Pope as the papal investigator of the sexual abuse in the Legionaries of Christ.   Iniguez is certain that he is bound by his "oath of obedience" to the Pope, in the same way as I imagine obedience is demanded from a Major to his General.

"As for the delegate, the only candidacy taken under consideration at the Vatican meeting on April 30 and May 1, that of Cardinal Juan Sandoval Íñiguez, 77, the outgoing archbishop of Guadalajara, has had no follow-up. The cardinal has said that he was not approached and does not consider himself to be the right person, while saying that in any case he is at the disposal of the Holy Father, bound to him by the oath of obedience."

"Legion Leaders Absolve Themselves Before They Sink"
May 17, 2010

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1343324?eng=y
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 17, 2010, 04:38:48 AM

Vatican still trying  deflect blame to others and not itself..... ;D

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100516/ap_on_re_eu/eu_vatican_s_defense_2


AP Exclusive: Vatican details US sex abuse defense
         
In addition, the Holy See is expected to assert that bishops aren't Vatican employees because they aren't paid by Rome, don't act on Rome's behalf and aren't controlled day-to-day by the pope — factors courts use to determine whether employers are liable for the actions of their workers, Lena told the AP.


Outrageous!   The Pope pretending he is not responsible for the bishops.  An outright denial of the Code of Canon Law.

Look at the exact opposite point of view from Cardinal Iniguez (Alonso's bishop, I think.)  He is likely to be sent by thje Pope as the papal investigator of the sexual abuse in the Legionaries of Christ.   Iniguez is certain that he is bound by his "oath of obedience" to the Pope, in the same way as I imagine obedience is demanded from a Major to his General.

"As for the delegate, the only candidacy taken under consideration at the Vatican meeting on April 30 and May 1, that of Cardinal Juan Sandoval Íñiguez, 77, the outgoing archbishop of Guadalajara, has had no follow-up. The cardinal has said that he was not approached and does not consider himself to be the right person, while saying that in any case he is at the disposal of the Holy Father, bound to him by the oath of obedience."

"Legion Leaders Absolve Themselves Before They Sink"
May 17, 2010

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1343324?eng=y

The one thing I think you're overlooking, though, is that the Pope is trying to protect the Vatican against liability in a civil lawsuit by claiming that, according to the rules governing worldly bureaucracies, his bishops are not his employees, and he is therefore not legally responsible for what they do.  You and I both know that, according to Latin ecclesiology as we understand it, he IS responsible for what his bishops do in that he rules over them as their bishop, but the issue here is civil law, not canon law or ecclesiology, which Pope Benedict very wisely does not want to submit to the purview of secular authorities.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 17, 2010, 04:51:21 AM

Vatican still trying  deflect blame to others and not itself..... ;D

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100516/ap_on_re_eu/eu_vatican_s_defense_2


AP Exclusive: Vatican details US sex abuse defense
         
In addition, the Holy See is expected to assert that bishops aren't Vatican employees because they aren't paid by Rome, don't act on Rome's behalf and aren't controlled day-to-day by the pope — factors courts use to determine whether employers are liable for the actions of their workers, Lena told the AP.


Outrageous!   The Pope pretending he is not responsible for the bishops.  An outright denial of the Code of Canon Law.

Look at the exact opposite point of view from Cardinal Iniguez (Alonso's bishop, I think.)  He is likely to be sent by thje Pope as the papal investigator of the sexual abuse in the Legionaries of Christ.   Iniguez is certain that he is bound by his "oath of obedience" to the Pope, in the same way as I imagine obedience is demanded from a Major to his General.

"As for the delegate, the only candidacy taken under consideration at the Vatican meeting on April 30 and May 1, that of Cardinal Juan Sandoval Íñiguez, 77, the outgoing archbishop of Guadalajara, has had no follow-up. The cardinal has said that he was not approached and does not consider himself to be the right person, while saying that in any case he is at the disposal of the Holy Father, bound to him by the oath of obedience."

"Legion Leaders Absolve Themselves Before They Sink"
May 17, 2010

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1343324?eng=y

The one thing I think you're overlooking, though, is that the Pope is trying to protect the Vatican against liability in a civil lawsuit by claiming that, according to the rules governing worldly bureaucracies, his bishops are not his employees, and he is therefore not legally responsible for what they do.  You and I both know that, according to Latin ecclesiology as we understand it, he IS responsible for what his bishops do in that he rules over them as their bishop, but the issue here is civil law, not canon law or ecclesiology, which Pope Benedict very wisely does not want to submit to the purview of secular authorities.


The Code of Canon Law of the Catholic Church is simply the Rules of Incorporation and governance of one particular worldwide organisation headed by a CEO in Rome.  Every business, every incorporated society, every trust, has such rules which regulate its life.

The fact the the Pope sees it this way also is shown by the secret directive which he sent to the bishops instructing them how to deal with abuse complaints.  He obviously sees them as subordinate to him and he has a right under the Rules of his organisation to instruct them and to expect them to obey him and after all, they do all take an oath of obedience to him.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on May 17, 2010, 09:52:56 AM

Vatican still trying  deflect blame to others and not itself..... ;D

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100516/ap_on_re_eu/eu_vatican_s_defense_2


AP Exclusive: Vatican details US sex abuse defense
         
In addition, the Holy See is expected to assert that bishops aren't Vatican employees because they aren't paid by Rome, don't act on Rome's behalf and aren't controlled day-to-day by the pope — factors courts use to determine whether employers are liable for the actions of their workers, Lena told the AP.


Outrageous!   The Pope pretending he is not responsible for the bishops.  An outright denial of the Code of Canon Law.

Look at the exact opposite point of view from Cardinal Iniguez (Alonso's bishop, I think.)  He is likely to be sent by thje Pope as the papal investigator of the sexual abuse in the Legionaries of Christ.   Iniguez is certain that he is bound by his "oath of obedience" to the Pope, in the same way as I imagine obedience is demanded from a Major to his General.

"As for the delegate, the only candidacy taken under consideration at the Vatican meeting on April 30 and May 1, that of Cardinal Juan Sandoval Íñiguez, 77, the outgoing archbishop of Guadalajara, has had no follow-up. The cardinal has said that he was not approached and does not consider himself to be the right person, while saying that in any case he is at the disposal of the Holy Father, bound to him by the oath of obedience."

"Legion Leaders Absolve Themselves Before They Sink"
May 17, 2010

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1343324?eng=y


Well Father,

You must read canon law as if it were secular law or military law with all it that meaning imbued.

But the counter argument of course is that canon law does not set out the same kinds of relationships that are established in secular and military law.

You better hope that the counter argument wins because if you think that Orthodoxy is strong enough alone to meet what is coming head on without capitulating...then you have not read your recent Orthodox history very well.

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Cosmos on May 17, 2010, 02:27:28 PM
“People's minds are changed through observation and not through argument” Will Rogers

Cosmos  :-\
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 19, 2010, 08:18:44 AM
Vatican to court: Priests are not our employees

Attorney outlines defense ahead of filing Monday in sex abuse case
By NICOLE WINFIELD

Sun., May 16, 2010

VATICAN CITY - The Vatican on Monday will make its most detailed defense yet against claims that it is liable for U.S. bishops who allowed priests to molest children, saying bishops are not its employees and that a 1962 Vatican document did not require them to keep quiet, The Associated Press has learned.

The Vatican will make the arguments in a motion to dismiss a federal lawsuit on jurisdictional grounds filed in Louisville, Kentucky, but it could affect other efforts to sue the Holy See.

The Vatican's U.S. attorney, Jeffrey Lena, said it will include a response to claims that the 1962 document "Crimen Sollicitationis" — Latin for "crimes of solicitation" — barred bishops from reporting abuse to police.

Lena said Sunday there is no evidence the document was even known to the archdiocese in question — much less used — and that regardless it didn't mandate that bishops not report abusive priests.

Lena said the confidentiality imposed by Crimen did not trump civil law and was applied only in formal canonical processes, which bishops had the discretion to suspend if there was a conflict with reporting laws.

"It is important that people — particularly people who have suffered abuse — know that, contrary to what some plaintiffs' lawyers have consistently told the media, the canon law did not bar reporting of these crimes to the civil authorities," Lena told the AP.

'Smoking gun' document?
The document describes how church authorities should deal procedurally with cases of abuse of children by priests, cases where sex is solicited in the confessional — a particularly heinous crime under canon law — and cases of homosexuality and bestiality.

The attorney behind the Kentucky case, William McMurry, said in a recent e-mail that the document is "a smoking gun."

"It's evidence of a 'written' policy that demands no mention be made by a bishop of priest sex abuse," he said. "Since our case, and no other, is about holding the Vatican accountable for the bishops' failure to report to civil authorities, any policy that gags the bishop is relevant and material."

The Holy See is trying to fend off the first U.S. case to reach the stage of determining whether victims actually have a claim against the Vatican itself for negligence for the failure of bishops to alert police or the public about Roman Catholic priests who molested children.

The case was filed in 2004 by three men who claim they were abused by priests decades ago and claim negligence by the Vatican. McMurry is seeking class-action status for the case, saying there are thousands of victims across the country. McMurry also represented 243 sex abuse victims who settled with the Archdiocese of Louisville in 2003 for $25.3 million.

The Vatican is seeking to dismiss the suit before Pope Benedict XVI can be questioned or documents subpoenaed.

Its motion is being closely watched as the clerical abuse scandal swirls around the Holy See, since the court's eventual decision could have implications for a lawsuit naming top Vatican officials that was recently filed in Wisconsin and another one in Oregon is pending before the Supreme Court.

The Vatican is expected to assert that bishops aren't its employees because they aren't paid by Rome, don't act on Rome's behalf and aren't controlled day-to-day by the pope — factors courts use to determine whether employers are liable for the actions of their employees, Lena told the AP.

He said he would suggest to the court that it should avoid using the religious nature of the relationship between bishops and the pope as a basis for civil liability because it entangles the court in an analysis of religious doctrine that dates back to the apostles.

"He (McMurry) wishes to invoke religious authority to construct a civil employment relationship, and our view is that it's an inappropriate invitation to the court to consider religious doctrine," Lena said. "Courts tend to avoid constructing civil relationships out of religious materials."

Hiring vs. oath of office

McMurry has alleged that the Vatican had clear and direct control over bishops, mandated a policy of secrecy, and is therefore liable for the bishops' failure to report abuse. He is seeking unspecified damages.

McMurry has said that based on district and appellate court rulings, he doesn't need to prove bishops were employees of the Vatican but merely "officials." He noted that they take an oath of office. The pope appoints, disciplines and removes bishops.

If a bishop wants to spend more than $5 million he must ask permission from Rome, and if he wants to take a three-month sabbatical, he needs the Holy See's OK, said McMurry's main expert witness, the Rev. Thomas P. Doyle, a canon lawyer who worked at the Vatican's U.S. nunziature.

"For the defense to claim that what's necessary is to show day-to-day monitoring is unrealistic," Doyle said. "That is not a viable argument to show the Vatican has direct control over the bishops."

The AP in March reported on an outline of the Holy See's strategy in Kentucky that was contained in a litigation plan filed with the court. On Monday, the Holy See is expected to flesh out that outline by filing a motion to dismiss the case on the grounds that the court doesn't have jurisdiction under the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act, which protects sovereign states from being sued in U.S. courts except under certain circumstances.

Lena provided some details of the Vatican's approach to the AP ahead of the court filing. The motion also seeks to dismiss the case on the grounds that plaintiffs haven't stated a claim and attacks the factual basis for jurisdiction, including whether the 1962 document ever appeared in the diocese.

Lena has said even Doyle has rejected theories that the document was proof of a Vatican-mandated policy of cover-up. Doyle has said it was evidence of a culture of secrecy that the Catholic Church has perpetuated for centuries.

The Holy See has in previous court filings noted Doyle's own writings and depositions in U.S. court cases against archdioceses, including in Louisville, where Doyle said he hadn't found "any written evidence that the procedures outlined in Crimen were used in a prosecution in the archdiocese of Louisville."

On Sunday, Doyle said his words had been misconstrued.

"He's clearly misunderstood, misconstrued or twisted the things I've said and radically changed their meaning," Doyle said. "I made that statement as an expert witness to indicate the intended negligence on the part of the bishops, not the lack of existence of the law."

He said bishops around the country were all informed about Crimen, and the fact that it remained confidential didn't mean they didn't know about it. He noted that several bishops have said in depositions that they knew of Crimen's existence or had been taught it in seminary.

"The fact that the document was not publicly known is not any way evidence that it was not a viable piece of ecclesial legislation, because it was," he said.




Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 20, 2010, 03:28:10 AM
The Pope, the Cardinals, the Jesuits. Three Responses to the Scandal

The royal road sketched out by Benedict XVI. Schönborn and O'Malley's shots at Sodano. The roles of Bertone and Fr. Lombardi. The battle of "La Civiltà Cattolica" against the "culture of pedophilia"

by Sandro Magister

(http://data.kataweb.it/kpmimages/kpm3/misc/chiesa/2010/05/19/jpg_1343361.jpg)


ROME, May 20, 2010 – The Catholic hierarchy is responding in three ways to the scandal of sexual abuse committed by priests.

The first is at the initiative of the pope. The second through the work of a few cardinals. The third, thanks to the scholarly Jesuits of "La Civiltà Cattolica," with the imprimatur of the Vatican secretariat of state.......

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1343359?eng=y
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: ialmisry on May 20, 2010, 05:50:22 AM
I came across something interesting on this topic:
Quote
Aren't we disgusted with the shocking number of high-profile cases of priests engaged in pedophilia, homosexual activity, and adultery? Some excuse this behavior with the platitudes "a sin is a sin" and "we are all sinners." Uh, excuse me?

Persons who say "a sin is a sin" don't live in the real world. My wife is more than forgiving when I snap at her for no reason. I don't think that she would be that charitable if I were to come home smelling of another woman's perfume.

I concede that we are all sinners, but clergy relinquish the right to even think of engaging in certain classes of sin. When a priest sins sexually he damages the Church the way that crooked judges, lawyers, and police officers damage the legal system. How can anyone not understand this?

Looking back on my seminary years, nobody ever told me that I shouldn't put my hand on an altar boy's private parts, leave my wife for a man, or go to bed with someone other than my wife. Come to think of it, they didn't tell me not to eat yellow snow, either. The faculty assumed that we all knew better.

There's a saying about the word assume. If you don't know it, ask somebody who served in the military to explain it to you. So, rather than assume that seminarians and young clergy know right from wrong with regard to sexual matters, here are some essential rules of behavior for those preparing for and serving in the priesthood:

If you are delaying ordination until you find Miss Right, then be willing to wait for the appropriate woman to come into your life. Rushing into marriage with the wrong person is like voluntarily infecting yourself with an incurable illness. Ask any married person -- our spouse will either make us or break us. The priesthood poses enough difficulties without having the millstone of the wrong wife around your neck.

If you have sexual fantasies about anything other than a woman, get help. If these ideations persist, choose a different career.

If your heterosexual fantasies occupy as much of your time as they did when you were 15, see an experienced confessor. If you are married and have persistent sexual fantasies about anyone other than your wife, again, see the confessor.

If your marriage needs fixing, then go to counseling. If counseling doesn't work, you have three options: separation, divorce, or "gutting it out." Finding a mistress is not an acceptable alternative.

Appearances matter. Don't put yourself in situations where your integrity can be challenged. Don't stay in the same room with children when no other adults are present. Don't go swimming with anybody other than other clergy, and certainly not with minors. Don't meet repeatedly for one-on-one counseling sessions with the same person outside of normal office hours. Don't meet with a long-time female friend in a hotel room when you are together at a conference. Don't give rides to a woman or a child unless other people are in the car.

It's not too late until it's too late. If you are counseling a woman and you are attracted to her, send her to another priest. If you are about to walk into the bedroom of a person who is not your wife, walk away. If you are kissing someone other than your wife -- stop, and get on the phone with a priest-friend whom you can trust.
All sexual misconduct is unjustifiable. Some child abusers excuse themselves because they were victims of abuse. Yet plenty of adult survivors of molestations go on to have normal sex lives. Get help. And before you put your hand where it doesn't belong, remember how bad it felt when it was done to you.

And all sexual misconduct deserves the maximum penalty. When persons on the bench, in the bar, or with a badge undermine the legal system they get locked up for a long time; they are held to a higher standard. Priests who are pedophiles, homosexual predators, and adulterers need to be defrocked -- not only to send a message but to protect the Church and her members. Some of them need jail time too.

And why give a wolf in shepherd's clothing a second chance to ravage the flock? Maybe an adulterous pastor who had one occasion of adultery could be given a second -- and last -- chance, but only after plenty of counseling and a transfer to the other side of the continent. The rest need to be removed.

The second century priest-martyr Haralambos was dragged by his beard through the streets because he refused to deny Christ. In the 21st century, clerics drag the good name of the priesthood and the Church through the tabloids and the evening news. Sexual sin among the clergy must stop.


Rev. Aris P. Metrakos is the pastor of Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church in Columbia, South Carolina. He is frequent retreat leader and speaker for both teens and adults. Prior to attending seminary, Fr. Aris was an aviator for the US Navy. He travels annually to Romania to help the Romanian Orthodox Church establish ministries for Romanian youth. You can contact Fr. Aris at FrMetrakos@orthodoxytoday.org.

Posted: 21-Sep-07
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles7/MetrakosSexualSin.php
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 26, 2010, 06:20:43 PM
Obama administration sides with Vatican in Oregon case
by John L Allen Jr on May. 24, 2010 NCR

By JOHN L. ALLEN JR.

In a strongly worded brief for the United States Supreme Court, the Obama
administration has sided with the Vatican in an Oregon lawsuit that names the
Holy See as a defendant for its role in the sexual abuse crisis.

In effect, the brief asserts that the standards for an exception to the immunity
that foreign governments enjoy under American law have not been met in the
Oregon case.

Filed on Friday, the brief stops short of recommending that the Supreme Court
directly take up the case of Doe v. Holy See, originally filed in federal
district court in Oregon in 2002. Instead, it suggests that the Supreme Court
set aside the 2009 ruling of an appeals court that allowed the case to go
forward, sending it back for further consideration.

Experts say this is the first time the United States government has officially
expressed an opinion about efforts to sue the Vatican in American courts, as
opposed to the pope personally. In 2005, the U.S. State Department recommended
dismissing Pope Benedict XVI from a Texas lawsuit over the sexual abuse crisis,
on the basis of a separate personal guarantee of immunity enjoyed by heads of
state. The judge in that case complied.

Friday's brief was filed by the Acting Solicitor General of the United States,
the top deputy to Supreme Court nominee Elana Kagan, as well as by officials
from the Attorney General's office and the State Department.

The brief asserts that the Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit made a mistake
in ruling that a district court in Oregon has jurisdiction over the claim that
the Vatican is liable for sexual abuse committed by Catholic priests.

Though the legal fine points are complicated, the Obama administration's brief
makes a distinction between two questions:

• The jurisdictional standards for suing a foreign government under the 1976
Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act;
• The liability standards for holding an employer responsible for damages caused
by an employee under Oregon law.

Essentially, the brief argues that before a court can even consider the second
question, it has to resolve the first – and that in the case of the suit against
the Vatican, the standards for overcoming sovereign immunity have not been met.
The brief does not address the substantive question of whether Catholic priests
are actually Vatican "employees" for purposes of American civil law.

The Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act recognizes the general immunity of foreign
governments to being sued in American courts, but also lays out nine exceptions,
including the "tort exception" invoked in the Oregon case. It holds that a
government can be sued for harms caused by its employees and agents in the
course of performing duties within the scope of their employment.

In the Doe v. Holy See case, a district court found that sexual abuse of a minor
is clearly outside the scope of employment of a Catholic priest, meaning the
things a priest is supposed to do on behalf of the church. Nevertheless, Oregon
law also recognizes liability if the acts that led up to a harm being caused do
fall within the scope of employment. Under that principle, church officials
could be held liable if a priest's normal pastoral activity created the
conditions in which he was able to commit an act of sexual abuse.

On that basis, both the district court and the appeals court ruled that the
lawsuit against the Vatican could proceed.

The Solicitor General's brief, however, asserts that the courts are mistaken.
The broader liability standard under Oregon law, the brief says, only applies if
the court has jurisdiction in the first place – and, according to the brief, the
tort exception to the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act requires that the
wrongdoing fall within the scope of employment.

"A court may not use a state liability rule to expand the grounds on which the
Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act permits the court to exercise jurisdiction over
a foreign sovereign," the brief says.

The brief asks the Supreme Court to make clear that an exception to the normal
presumption of immunity applies "only if the tort itself was committed by the
employee while acting within the scope of his office or employment."

In general, the brief argues that exceptions to sovereign immunity ought to be
narrowly construed, not expanded beyond the limits intended by Congress.
"Improperly subjecting a foreign state to suit can in some circumstances raise
foreign relations and reciprocity concerns," the brief asserts.

Observers say that Lena may file a response to the Solicitor General's brief,
arguing that its legal analysis supports stronger action from the Supreme Court
than simply sending the case back to the appeals court for reconsideration. Lena
could ask that the Supreme Court dismiss the case entirely.

If the case survives that challenge, the next step may be for the district court
in Oregon to consider requests from plaintiff's lawyers to depose top Vatican
officials and to request access to Vatican records. Observers say that the
district court judge in Oregon has seemed more inclined to support broad
requests for depositions of Vatican officials than the judge in the O'Bryan v.
Holy See case in Kentucky, another instance of the Vatican being sued for its
role in the sexual abuse crisis.


Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on May 27, 2010, 12:24:14 AM
Australia archbishop: Church culture tied to abuse

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100524/ap_on_re_as/as_australia_church_abuse
           
 AP – Pope Benedict XVI wipes his forehead as he celebrates a Pentecost Mass inside St. Peter's Basilica, at … .By ROD McGUIRK, Associated Press Writer Rod Mcguirk, Associated Press Writer – Mon May 24, 6:53 am ET

(http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20100523/capt.b3d07520845345d78860c2c390be211a-b3d07520845345d78860c2c390be211a-0.jpg?)





CANBERRA, Australia – The Roman Catholic Church's culture of discretion and focus on "sin and forgiveness rather than crime and punishment" were among ingrained factors that ultimately led to the child sex abuse scandal and cover-up surrounding the church today, a pre-eminent Australian bishop said Monday.

Archbishop Mark Coleridge, whose archdiocese is based in the national capital of Canberra, took the unusual step of writing an open letter attempting to explain the culture that led the church to turn a blind eye to priests accused of molesting children.

Factors include a determination to protect the church's reputation, a culture of discretion, "institutionalized immaturity" of priests fostered by seminary training, and an outlook of "sin and forgiveness rather than crime and punishment," Coleridge wrote.

Clerical celibacy was not itself a factor but it "has its perils," he wrote. "The discipline of celibacy may also have been attractive to men in whom there were paedophile tendencies which may not have been explicitly recognised by the men themselves when they entered the seminary."

Coleridge said as a young priest in the 1970s, he regarded pedophilia cases as "tragic and isolated." Coleridge's view shifted when he was called to serve at the Vatican as chaplain to Pope John Paul II during a five-year period that ended in 2002. While there, Coleridge came to regard child abuse in the church as "cultural."

"There is no one factor that makes abuse of the young by Catholic clergy in some sense cultural," Coleridge wrote. "It seems to me a rather complex combination of factors which I do not claim to understand fully."

Coleridge, a priest for 36 years, said no one could now deny the scale of the pedophilia problem in the church.

"All can see that this is a time of crisis for the Catholic Church ... there will be no quick fix to this problem, the roots of which go deep and wide."

Coleridge said Monday that Pope Benedict XVI was the right church leader for the challenge. Before he became pope in 2005, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger held a key Vatican role in dealing with sex abuse.

"As cardinal and as pope, he has acted as vigorously as I think he can without claiming that he's got a magic wand or that the pope can just speak a word from on high and it all happens," Coleridge told Australian Broadcasting Corp. radio Monday.

Canberra-based church historian Paul Collins said Coleridge's letter was unprecedented in Australia in that it openly admits the scale of the child abuse problem.

"Certainly Coleridge is the first bishop to have tackled it head on in this way in Australia," said Collins, an author and former priest.

Broken Rites Australia, a support group for victims of clergy sex abuse, said the church's failing as outlined by Coleridge was unforgivable.

"The archbishop's comments show how the Catholic Church hierarchy have covered up sex abuse and dealt very badly with the victims," group president Chris MacIsacc said. "But there is no excuse for not understanding that rape, sodomy and child sex abuse is a crime. To be more concerned for the perpetrator of crime than the victim is unforgivable."
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on May 27, 2010, 08:12:17 AM

"The archbishop's comments show how the Catholic Church hierarchy have covered up sex abuse and dealt very badly with the victims," group president Chris MacIsacc said. "But there is no excuse for not understanding that rape, sodomy and child sex abuse is a crime. To be more concerned for the perpetrator of crime than the victim is unforgivable."


This kind of response is the cry of the outraged on-looker.  You will not find this kind of unforgiving language used too often among the abused, in my experience.  Many young people are abused by people that they already love.  There is nothing in the third-hand public hysteria that addresses that or even begins to understand that aspect of the tragedy. 

The Church actually does grasp that in her "culture."

Perhaps we are not juridical enough for Orthodoxy?  I get that feeling sometimes.

Mary

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 27, 2010, 08:33:45 AM

"The archbishop's comments show how the Catholic Church hierarchy have covered up sex abuse and dealt very badly with the victims," group president Chris MacIsacc said. "But there is no excuse for not understanding that rape, sodomy and child sex abuse is a crime. To be more concerned for the perpetrator of crime than the victim is unforgivable."


This kind of response is the cry of the outraged on-looker.  You will not find this kind of unforgiving language used too often among the abused, in my experience.  Many young people are abused by people that they already love.  There is nothing in the third-hand public hysteria that addresses that or even begins to understand that aspect of the tragedy. 

The Church actually does grasp that in her "culture."

Perhaps we are not juridical enough for Orthodoxy?  I get that feeling sometimes.

Mary

Mary
The person whom you called an "outraged on-looker" is the President of "Broken Rites Australia" which has assisted hundreds of abuse victims.  An outraged on-looker?  Hardly.

Here is the organisation's website.

http://brokenrites.alphalink.com.au/
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on May 27, 2010, 08:52:50 AM

"The archbishop's comments show how the Catholic Church hierarchy have covered up sex abuse and dealt very badly with the victims," group president Chris MacIsacc said. "But there is no excuse for not understanding that rape, sodomy and child sex abuse is a crime. To be more concerned for the perpetrator of crime than the victim is unforgivable."


This kind of response is the cry of the outraged on-looker.  You will not find this kind of unforgiving language used too often among the abused, in my experience.  Many young people are abused by people that they already love.  There is nothing in the third-hand public hysteria that addresses that or even begins to understand that aspect of the tragedy. 

The Church actually does grasp that in her "culture."

Perhaps we are not juridical enough for Orthodoxy?  I get that feeling sometimes.

Mary

Mary
The person whom you called an "outraged on-looker" is the President of "Broken Rites Australia" which has assisted hundreds of abuse victims.  An outraged on-looker?  Hardly.

Here is the organisation's website.

http://brokenrites.alphalink.com.au/

Nonetheless he is not typical in his angry language if he indeed is a survivor. 

As you well know as a monk, healing comes from stilling the passions not giving them free rein.  When I say the Our Father, I mean it.

In your experienced pastoral estimation, Father, how much money does it take to heal the wounded heart and tortured psyche?   How many years in therapy do you suppose will fix things?  How much hating and punishing will it take to make a survivor feel better about themselves?

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on May 27, 2010, 09:04:14 AM

"The archbishop's comments show how the Catholic Church hierarchy have covered up sex abuse and dealt very badly with the victims," group president Chris MacIsacc said. "But there is no excuse for not understanding that rape, sodomy and child sex abuse is a crime. To be more concerned for the perpetrator of crime than the victim is unforgivable."


This kind of response is the cry of the outraged on-looker.  You will not find this kind of unforgiving language used too often among the abused, in my experience.  Many young people are abused by people that they already love.  There is nothing in the third-hand public hysteria that addresses that or even begins to understand that aspect of the tragedy. 

The Church actually does grasp that in her "culture."

Perhaps we are not juridical enough for Orthodoxy?  I get that feeling sometimes.

Mary

Mary
The person whom you called an "outraged on-looker" is the President of "Broken Rites Australia" which has assisted hundreds of abuse victims.  An outraged on-looker?  Hardly.

Here is the organisation's website.

http://brokenrites.alphalink.com.au/

Nonetheless he is not typical in his angry language if he indeed is a survivor. 

I do not know if he himself was subject to abuse.  But he heads an organisation which deals with hundreds of victims.  I really do not see how you can diminish and dismiss his experience.

Quote
In your experienced pastoral estimation, Father, how much money does it take to heal the wounded heart and tortured psyche?   How many years in therapy do you suppose will fix things?  How much hating and punishing will it take to make a survivor feel better about themselves?

I am personally acquainted with two convicted and imprisoned clerical abusers - one a Christian Brother once revered for his work among the street kids. The other a Marist priest.  The financial remuneration in this country is small compared to what your Courts award.  It is not sufficient, in my estimation, for a person to subject themselves to a long investigation and court case.  This is not their motivation.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on May 27, 2010, 09:19:16 AM

"The archbishop's comments show how the Catholic Church hierarchy have covered up sex abuse and dealt very badly with the victims," group president Chris MacIsacc said. "But there is no excuse for not understanding that rape, sodomy and child sex abuse is a crime. To be more concerned for the perpetrator of crime than the victim is unforgivable."


This kind of response is the cry of the outraged on-looker.  You will not find this kind of unforgiving language used too often among the abused, in my experience.  Many young people are abused by people that they already love.  There is nothing in the third-hand public hysteria that addresses that or even begins to understand that aspect of the tragedy.  

The Church actually does grasp that in her "culture."

Perhaps we are not juridical enough for Orthodoxy?  I get that feeling sometimes.

Mary

Mary
The person whom you called an "outraged on-looker" is the President of "Broken Rites Australia" which has assisted hundreds of abuse victims.  An outraged on-looker?  Hardly.

Here is the organisation's website.

http://brokenrites.alphalink.com.au/

Nonetheless he is not typical in his angry language if he indeed is a survivor.  

I do not know if he himself was subject to abuse.  But he heads an organisation which deals with hundreds of victims.  I really do not see how you can diminish and dismiss his experience.

Quote
In your experienced pastoral estimation, Father, how much money does it take to heal the wounded heart and tortured psyche?   How many years in therapy do you suppose will fix things?  How much hating and punishing will it take to make a survivor feel better about themselves?

I am personally acquainted with two convicted and imprisoned clerical abusers - one a Christian Brother once revered for his work among the street kids. The other a Marist priest.  The financial remuneration in this country is small compared to what your Courts award.  It is not sufficient, in my estimation, for a person to subject themselves to a long investigation and court case.  This is not their motivation.

Yes.  I looked at the website and it is difficult to know if the author of the quote is a survivor or not.  My instinctive guess is that based on the message, he is not.  I have found it almost axiomatic that the observers are far more condemning in their language than the victims, which I know is not necessarily helpful to the survivors in their efforts to not only survive but to heal. 

But I am too far away from this organization to know with certitude but I don't think it is a particularly wise to speak of unforgiveness.   And I do not see the Church being "more concerned for the perpetrator" at all.  I think that is part of the hysteria that makes this issue so difficult to manage...It's like having your wife shrieking in your ear when you are lost in the city. 

To heal requires the Church, the very source of your torment.   It is an odd situation.  Abuse that happens in the home has the same difficulty.  The one place that represents order, stability, safety to a child or youth is the source of their torment and they may not be able to survive well without the love of the very person who may have abused them.

I find most of the second and third hand reactions to this situation grossly lacking in empathy.

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on May 28, 2010, 12:45:22 AM
I came across something interesting on this topic:
Quote
Aren't we disgusted with the shocking number of high-profile cases of priests engaged in pedophilia, homosexual activity, and adultery? Some excuse this behavior with the platitudes "a sin is a sin" and "we are all sinners." Uh, excuse me?

Persons who say "a sin is a sin" don't live in the real world. ... Priests who are pedophiles, homosexual predators, and adulterers need to be defrocked -- not only to send a message but to protect the Church and her members. Some of them need jail time too.
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles7/MetrakosSexualSin.php
In general, this is a good article and I agree with mostly all of it, except that it seems to be too lenient on the punishment. I mean, why wouldn't  the death penalty be justified for those who are going around raping children? They are destroying the lives of young children. Also, with the death penalty, you would send a clear and unambiguous message that this type of activity is not going to be tolerated.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Robb on May 28, 2010, 01:04:19 AM
I don't think that anyone can deny that this Pope has done more to fight this scourage of pedophilia then almost anybody else in the Church to this date.  He has unfortunately been hampered by the Vatican bureaucracy and apathetic churchmen when he was a cardinal and many of these same people are still causing trouble for him as Pope. 

This just goes to show you that the concept of independent national churches and bishops conferences governing themselves without oversight is not always such a good idea.  Many of these abuses were done within the jurisdiction of either uncaring or uninformed bishops who allowed this trouble to persist for many years.  Had there been more oversight from the Vatican then maybe things would not have progressed to the point that they did.

Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: ialmisry on May 28, 2010, 02:55:52 AM
I don't think that anyone can deny that this Pope has done more to fight this scourage of pedophilia then almost anybody else in the Church to this date.  He has unfortunately been hampered by the Vatican bureaucracy and apathetic churchmen when he was a cardinal and many of these same people are still causing trouble for him as Pope. 

This just goes to show you that the concept of independent national churches and bishops conferences governing themselves without oversight is not always such a good idea.  Many of these abuses were done within the jurisdiction of either uncaring or uninformed bishops who allowed this trouble to persist for many years.  Had there been more oversight from the Vatican then maybe things would not have progressed to the point that they did.



Why would someone far off be better to supervisor things on the ground?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: PeterTheAleut on May 28, 2010, 03:19:48 AM
I came across something interesting on this topic:
Quote
Aren't we disgusted with the shocking number of high-profile cases of priests engaged in pedophilia, homosexual activity, and adultery? Some excuse this behavior with the platitudes "a sin is a sin" and "we are all sinners." Uh, excuse me?

Persons who say "a sin is a sin" don't live in the real world. ... Priests who are pedophiles, homosexual predators, and adulterers need to be defrocked -- not only to send a message but to protect the Church and her members. Some of them need jail time too.
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles7/MetrakosSexualSin.php
In general, this is a good article and I agree with mostly all of it, except that it seems to be too lenient on the punishment. I mean, why wouldn't  the death penalty be justified for those who are going around raping children? They are destroying the lives of young children. Also, with the death penalty, you would send a clear and unambiguous message that this type of activity is not going to be tolerated.
But then you're assuming that the death penalty is itself a good thing.  Doesn't Catholic moral teaching condemn the death penalty?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on May 28, 2010, 03:53:04 AM
I came across something interesting on this topic:
Quote
Aren't we disgusted with the shocking number of high-profile cases of priests engaged in pedophilia, homosexual activity, and adultery? Some excuse this behavior with the platitudes "a sin is a sin" and "we are all sinners." Uh, excuse me?

Persons who say "a sin is a sin" don't live in the real world. ... Priests who are pedophiles, homosexual predators, and adulterers need to be defrocked -- not only to send a message but to protect the Church and her members. Some of them need jail time too.
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles7/MetrakosSexualSin.php
In general, this is a good article and I agree with mostly all of it, except that it seems to be too lenient on the punishment. I mean, why wouldn't  the death penalty be justified for those who are going around raping children? They are destroying the lives of young children. Also, with the death penalty, you would send a clear and unambiguous message that this type of activity is not going to be tolerated.
But then you're assuming that the death penalty is itself a good thing.  Doesn't Catholic moral teaching condemn the death penalty?
As far as I can make out, there are conflicting views on this.
According to Catholic Answers:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/keyword/death%20penalty
 “The death penalty may be permissible when it is the only possible way to defend human lives. The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains:
Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity with the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm—without definitively taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself—the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity are very rare, if not practically nonexistent. (CCC 2267).”
So it looks to me like it would be a prudential decision. But although it does look like a prudential decision, I would have to agree that the current thinking in the RCC is that as a general rule it should not be used.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Robb on May 28, 2010, 04:20:01 PM
I don't think that anyone can deny that this Pope has done more to fight this scourage of pedophilia then almost anybody else in the Church to this date.  He has unfortunately been hampered by the Vatican bureaucracy and apathetic churchmen when he was a cardinal and many of these same people are still causing trouble for him as Pope. 

This just goes to show you that the concept of independent national churches and bishops conferences governing themselves without oversight is not always such a good idea.  Many of these abuses were done within the jurisdiction of either uncaring or uninformed bishops who allowed this trouble to persist for many years.  Had there been more oversight from the Vatican then maybe things would not have progressed to the point that they did.



Why would someone far off be better to supervisor things on the ground?

Its better to have oversite from a higher source of authority then those who are "on the ground" when incidents like this happen.  Its the same thing that happened with Wall Street when federal regulations were eased up.  They tycoons went crazy and we are in the financial mess that exist today.

Fixed quote box, nothing more - Fr. George, GM
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on June 10, 2010, 09:08:35 PM

Pope defends celibacy for priests in massive rally

Jun 10, 5:14 PM (ET)

By NICOLE WINFIELD

VATICAN CITY (AP) - Pope Benedict XVI has strongly defended celibacy for
priests as a sign of faith in an increasingly secular world during a rally
that has drawn some 15,000 priests from around the world.

Benedict didn't directly mention the clerical abuse scandal that has rocked
the Catholic Church, but he referred to some "secondary scandals" that
showed "our own insufficiencies and sins."

Benedict's comments came during an evening vigil service in St. Peter's
Square to mark the end of the Vatican's year of the priest - a year that has
been marred by revelations of hundreds of new cases of clerical abuse,
cover-up and Vatican inaction to stop it.

Benedict responded to preselected questions from five priests; none asked
for his thoughts about the scandal.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on June 11, 2010, 12:12:29 PM
I came across something interesting on this topic:
Quote
Aren't we disgusted with the shocking number of high-profile cases of priests engaged in pedophilia, homosexual activity, and adultery? Some excuse this behavior with the platitudes "a sin is a sin" and "we are all sinners." Uh, excuse me?

Persons who say "a sin is a sin" don't live in the real world. ... Priests who are pedophiles, homosexual predators, and adulterers need to be defrocked -- not only to send a message but to protect the Church and her members. Some of them need jail time too.
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles7/MetrakosSexualSin.php
In general, this is a good article and I agree with mostly all of it, except that it seems to be too lenient on the punishment. I mean, why wouldn't  the death penalty be justified for those who are going around raping children? They are destroying the lives of young children. Also, with the death penalty, you would send a clear and unambiguous message that this type of activity is not going to be tolerated.
But then you're assuming that the death penalty is itself a good thing.  Doesn't Catholic moral teaching condemn the death penalty?

No. We just think that it is not necessary at this time in history.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Robb on June 11, 2010, 05:02:03 PM
I came across something interesting on this topic:
Quote
Aren't we disgusted with the shocking number of high-profile cases of priests engaged in pedophilia, homosexual activity, and adultery? Some excuse this behavior with the platitudes "a sin is a sin" and "we are all sinners." Uh, excuse me?

Persons who say "a sin is a sin" don't live in the real world. ... Priests who are pedophiles, homosexual predators, and adulterers need to be defrocked -- not only to send a message but to protect the Church and her members. Some of them need jail time too.
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles7/MetrakosSexualSin.php
In general, this is a good article and I agree with mostly all of it, except that it seems to be too lenient on the punishment. I mean, why wouldn't  the death penalty be justified for those who are going around raping children? They are destroying the lives of young children. Also, with the death penalty, you would send a clear and unambiguous message that this type of activity is not going to be tolerated.
But then you're assuming that the death penalty is itself a good thing.  Doesn't Catholic moral teaching condemn the death penalty?

No. We just think that it is not necessary at this time in history.

This matter is open for debate among Catholics and nothing has been settled absolutely.  One can still be an RC in good standing and support the death penalty.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: rakovsky on June 11, 2010, 08:56:26 PM
If you have sexual fantasies about anything other than a woman, get help. If these ideations persist, choose a different career.

If your heterosexual fantasies occupy as much of your time as they did when you were 15, see an experienced confessor.

I am confused. Who are supposed to have their sexual ideas stop when they are over 15 and why? Otherwise we need to confess this?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on June 11, 2010, 09:55:34 PM
This matter is open for debate among Catholics and nothing has been settled absolutely.  One can still be an RC in good standing and support the death penalty.
That's right.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Fr. George on June 11, 2010, 10:00:26 PM
If you have sexual fantasies about anything other than a woman, get help. If these ideations persist, choose a different career.

If your heterosexual fantasies occupy as much of your time as they did when you were 15, see an experienced confessor.

I am confused. Who are supposed to have their sexual ideas stop when they are over 15 and why? Otherwise we need to confess this?

I think he's saying that adults should have learned/developed methods of controlling their desire, versus a 15 year old who has only begun to experience them in their recent past and, thus, has a more difficult time with self-control.  Sexual temptation will continue until you reach a ripe old age, but that doesn't mean you should lose the battle to the passions the entire time - the benefit of age, wisdom, and experience should allow you to channel those urges into more useful and spiritually beneficial activities.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: rakovsky on June 13, 2010, 06:51:10 AM

Pope defends celibacy for priests in massive rally

VATICAN CITY (AP) - Pope Benedict XVI has strongly defended celibacy for
priests as a sign of faith in an increasingly secular world during a rally
that has drawn some 15,000 priests from around the world.

Benedict didn't directly mention the clerical abuse scandal that has rocked
the Catholic Church, but he referred to some "secondary scandals" that
showed "our own insufficiencies and sins."

Interesting. What other scandals are there?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on June 13, 2010, 05:16:42 PM

The Europe you know is changing.

You have probably seen the landmarks.  But in all of these cities, sometimes a few blocks away from your tourist destination, there is another world.  It is the world of the parallel society created by Muslim mass-migration.

All throughout Europe a new reality is rising: entire Muslim neighborhoods where very few indigenous people reside or are even seen.  And if they are, they might regret it.  This goes for the police as well.  It's the world of head scarves, where women walk around in figureless tents, with baby strollers and a group of children.  Their husbands, or slaveholders if you prefer, walk three steps ahead.  With mosques on many street corners.  The shops have signs you and I cannot read.  You will be hard-pressed to find any economic activity.  These are Muslim ghettos controlled by religious fanatics.  These are Muslim neighborhoods, and they are mushrooming in every city across Europe .  These are the building-blocks for territorial control of increasingly larger portions of Europe , street by street, neighborhood by neighborhood, city by city.

Well, why is Islam the fastest growing religion in the world today? Take a look at the abortion rates in Orthodox countries such as Russia, for example. The last time I checked, the abortion rates in the Orthodox country of Russia were the highest in the world today? And take a look at the Catholics and other Christians who are using artificial birth control and abortion to limit the size of their families.  In our neighborhood there is a Muslim family with six children and another one is on the way. Now in present day Orthodox Russia, or in Western Europe what percentage of the Christian families have six children? Do Muslims love children more than Christians? As long as Christians restrict the size of their families to small numbers and Muslims have families with six or more children, what do you expect?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on June 13, 2010, 09:32:34 PM

The Europe you know is changing.

You have probably seen the landmarks.  But in all of these cities, sometimes a few blocks away from your tourist destination, there is another world.  It is the world of the parallel society created by Muslim mass-migration.

All throughout Europe a new reality is rising: entire Muslim neighborhoods where very few indigenous people reside or are even seen.  And if they are, they might regret it.  This goes for the police as well.  It's the world of head scarves, where women walk around in figureless tents, with baby strollers and a group of children.  Their husbands, or slaveholders if you prefer, walk three steps ahead.  With mosques on many street corners.  The shops have signs you and I cannot read.  You will be hard-pressed to find any economic activity.  These are Muslim ghettos controlled by religious fanatics.  These are Muslim neighborhoods, and they are mushrooming in every city across Europe .  These are the building-blocks for territorial control of increasingly larger portions of Europe , street by street, neighborhood by neighborhood, city by city.

Well, why is Islam the fastest growing religion in the world today? Take a look at the abortion rates in Orthodox countries such as Russia, for example. The last time I checked, the abortion rates in the Orthodox country of Russia were the highest in the world today? And take a look at the Catholics and other Christians who are using artificial birth control and abortion to limit the size of their families.  In our neighborhood there is a Muslim family with six children and another one is on the way. Now in present day Orthodox Russia, or in Western Europe what percentage of the Christian families have six children? Do Muslims love children more than Christians? As long as Christians restrict the size of their families to small numbers and Muslims have families with six or more children, what do you expect?

All that you say is correct, my dear brother... and very unfortunately so.  Which is why the ongoing enforced celibacy of the Roman Catholic clergy is such a sad and negative thing.  The discipline should now be changed so that the Catholic priests may marry and become to the Church and to the world living examples of the beauty and holiness of Christian marriage.  The priests should also set an example in their families by rejoicing in all the children God sends them, whether it be 4 or 6 or 10 children.   Take away the sad and dreary rule which forbids priests to marry.  Instead, let them become shining examples of married life and the joy of children in the communities they serve.  Let this become a new and vibrant charisma and witness of Catholic priests in an age when the holiness of marriage is under heavy attack.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on June 13, 2010, 11:05:47 PM

The Europe you know is changing.

You have probably seen the landmarks.  But in all of these cities, sometimes a few blocks away from your tourist destination, there is another world.  It is the world of the parallel society created by Muslim mass-migration.

All throughout Europe a new reality is rising: entire Muslim neighborhoods where very few indigenous people reside or are even seen.  And if they are, they might regret it.  This goes for the police as well.  It's the world of head scarves, where women walk around in figureless tents, with baby strollers and a group of children.  Their husbands, or slaveholders if you prefer, walk three steps ahead.  With mosques on many street corners.  The shops have signs you and I cannot read.  You will be hard-pressed to find any economic activity.  These are Muslim ghettos controlled by religious fanatics.  These are Muslim neighborhoods, and they are mushrooming in every city across Europe .  These are the building-blocks for territorial control of increasingly larger portions of Europe , street by street, neighborhood by neighborhood, city by city.

Well, why is Islam the fastest growing religion in the world today? Take a look at the abortion rates in Orthodox countries such as Russia, for example. The last time I checked, the abortion rates in the Orthodox country of Russia were the highest in the world today? And take a look at the Catholics and other Christians who are using artificial birth control and abortion to limit the size of their families.  In our neighborhood there is a Muslim family with six children and another one is on the way. Now in present day Orthodox Russia, or in Western Europe what percentage of the Christian families have six children? Do Muslims love children more than Christians? As long as Christians restrict the size of their families to small numbers and Muslims have families with six or more children, what do you expect?

All that you say is correct, my dear brother... and very unfortunately so.  Which is why the ongoing enforced celibacy of the Roman Catholic clergy is such a sad and negative thing.  The discipline should now be changed so that the Catholic priests may marry and become to the Church and to the world living examples of the beauty and holiness of Christian marriage.  The priests should also set an example in their families by rejoicing in all the children God sends them, whether it be 4 or 6 or 10 children.   Take away the sad and dreary rule which forbids priests to marry.  Instead, let them become shining examples of married life and the joy of children in the communities they serve.  Let this become a new and vibrant charisma and witness of Catholic priests in an age when the holiness of marriage is under heavy attack.
That is an interesting thought, Father Ambrose.
It's not a bad idea really.
 I would say that it is an excellent idea for Catholic priests to show the way and set the example for the parish of having a large family of say 10 or 11 children, as some Muslim families do.
But on the other hand, what is the situation with married Orthodox priests?  On average, would they have many children? I know that some do, but others do not.
In any case, as long as Muslim families are large and Christian families are small, we can expect the situation as described in the paragraph above to continue and even worsen. 
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: WetCatechumen on June 14, 2010, 03:35:45 AM

The Europe you know is changing.

You have probably seen the landmarks.  But in all of these cities, sometimes a few blocks away from your tourist destination, there is another world.  It is the world of the parallel society created by Muslim mass-migration.

All throughout Europe a new reality is rising: entire Muslim neighborhoods where very few indigenous people reside or are even seen.  And if they are, they might regret it.  This goes for the police as well.  It's the world of head scarves, where women walk around in figureless tents, with baby strollers and a group of children.  Their husbands, or slaveholders if you prefer, walk three steps ahead.  With mosques on many street corners.  The shops have signs you and I cannot read.  You will be hard-pressed to find any economic activity.  These are Muslim ghettos controlled by religious fanatics.  These are Muslim neighborhoods, and they are mushrooming in every city across Europe .  These are the building-blocks for territorial control of increasingly larger portions of Europe , street by street, neighborhood by neighborhood, city by city.

Well, why is Islam the fastest growing religion in the world today? Take a look at the abortion rates in Orthodox countries such as Russia, for example. The last time I checked, the abortion rates in the Orthodox country of Russia were the highest in the world today? And take a look at the Catholics and other Christians who are using artificial birth control and abortion to limit the size of their families.  In our neighborhood there is a Muslim family with six children and another one is on the way. Now in present day Orthodox Russia, or in Western Europe what percentage of the Christian families have six children? Do Muslims love children more than Christians? As long as Christians restrict the size of their families to small numbers and Muslims have families with six or more children, what do you expect?

All that you say is correct, my dear brother... and very unfortunately so.  Which is why the ongoing enforced celibacy of the Roman Catholic clergy is such a sad and negative thing.  The discipline should now be changed so that the Catholic priests may marry and become to the Church and to the world living examples of the beauty and holiness of Christian marriage.  The priests should also set an example in their families by rejoicing in all the children God sends them, whether it be 4 or 6 or 10 children.   Take away the sad and dreary rule which forbids priests to marry.  Instead, let them become shining examples of married life and the joy of children in the communities they serve.  Let this become a new and vibrant charisma and witness of Catholic priests in an age when the holiness of marriage is under heavy attack.

I agree with both of you. The Muslims are outbreeding us! Only orthodox Catholic men become priests these days. These potential wonderful fathers who would raise many orthodox Catholic children are eliminated from the breeding pool. Even though priestly celibacy has its benefits, has a strong and apostolic tradition in the West, to save us from the Muslims it would make sense to me to relax the requirement, either temporarily or permanently.

One of the priests at my parish has six children - he has been so open to life that he has had sadly leave my parish and enter the military as a chaplain. He was in Iraq - I don't know where he has been assigned now. His wife and children still attend my parish (he is an Episcopalian convert).

Unfortunately, the more orthodox a Catholic Christian is these days, the more likely they are to support continuing priestly celibacy. I'm about as orthodox as they come (albeit unpious and sinful), and I'm one of the view who supports opening up the priesthood to married men. Most of the others who would agree with me also support homosexual marriage and women's ordination - positions I find reprehensible.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: rakovsky on June 14, 2010, 03:59:35 AM

One of the priests at my parish has six children - he has been so open to life that he has had sadly leave my parish and enter the military as a chaplain. He was in Iraq - I don't know where he has been assigned now. His wife and children still attend my parish (he is an Episcopalian convert).


I didn't think Latin Rite (your church?) parishes allowed married clergy?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: WetCatechumen on June 14, 2010, 04:39:29 AM

One of the priests at my parish has six children - he has been so open to life that he has had sadly leave my parish and enter the military as a chaplain. He was in Iraq - I don't know where he has been assigned now. His wife and children still attend my parish (he is an Episcopalian convert).


I didn't think Latin Rite (your church?) parishes allowed married clergy?
Married men may be ordained in the Latin Rite if they are ministers of another Christian denomination who convert. The priest whose family attends my parish was formerly an Episcopalian pastor. I know for sure that married former Anglican and Lutheran priests may be ordained, but I believe that former Presbyterian and Methodist elders can be also
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: rakovsky on June 14, 2010, 05:20:33 AM
This is news to me! What if they were Catholic, became Episcopalean, married, and then made "the journey home?" This hypo reminds me of the method Copts use to divorce in Egypt- convert to Islam, divorce, and return back.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: christianos on June 14, 2010, 10:02:25 AM
in every case Vatican is gaving a permission so prabably ex catholic who became a priest in other denomination won't take such permission. It's not like evey ex-pastor, presbyter or elder can become a priest  if only he converted to CC. It's not automatically
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: WetCatechumen on June 14, 2010, 02:30:41 PM
This is news to me! What if they were Catholic, became Episcopalean, married, and then made "the journey home?" This hypo reminds me of the method Copts use to divorce in Egypt- convert to Islam, divorce, and return back.

What christianos said. Now, if the said Catholic left the church when he was relatively young, got married and became a priest in the Episcopal church, then returned to the church relatively older - I suspect that something like that might result in permission for him to be ordained, but if it was clear that the candidate was using that to sidestep the celibacy rule, he would certainly be disallowed.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on June 14, 2010, 02:55:13 PM

The Europe you know is changing.

You have probably seen the landmarks.  But in all of these cities, sometimes a few blocks away from your tourist destination, there is another world.  It is the world of the parallel society created by Muslim mass-migration.

All throughout Europe a new reality is rising: entire Muslim neighborhoods where very few indigenous people reside or are even seen.  And if they are, they might regret it.  This goes for the police as well.  It's the world of head scarves, where women walk around in figureless tents, with baby strollers and a group of children.  Their husbands, or slaveholders if you prefer, walk three steps ahead.  With mosques on many street corners.  The shops have signs you and I cannot read.  You will be hard-pressed to find any economic activity.  These are Muslim ghettos controlled by religious fanatics.  These are Muslim neighborhoods, and they are mushrooming in every city across Europe .  These are the building-blocks for territorial control of increasingly larger portions of Europe , street by street, neighborhood by neighborhood, city by city.

Well, why is Islam the fastest growing religion in the world today? Take a look at the abortion rates in Orthodox countries such as Russia, for example. The last time I checked, the abortion rates in the Orthodox country of Russia were the highest in the world today? And take a look at the Catholics and other Christians who are using artificial birth control and abortion to limit the size of their families.  In our neighborhood there is a Muslim family with six children and another one is on the way. Now in present day Orthodox Russia, or in Western Europe what percentage of the Christian families have six children? Do Muslims love children more than Christians? As long as Christians restrict the size of their families to small numbers and Muslims have families with six or more children, what do you expect?

All that you say is correct, my dear brother... and very unfortunately so.  Which is why the ongoing enforced celibacy of the Roman Catholic clergy is such a sad and negative thing.  The discipline should now be changed so that the Catholic priests may marry and become to the Church and to the world living examples of the beauty and holiness of Christian marriage.  The priests should also set an example in their families by rejoicing in all the children God sends them, whether it be 4 or 6 or 10 children.   Take away the sad and dreary rule which forbids priests to marry.  Instead, let them become shining examples of married life and the joy of children in the communities they serve.  Let this become a new and vibrant charisma and witness of Catholic priests in an age when the holiness of marriage is under heavy attack.

I agree with both of you. The Muslims are outbreeding us! Only orthodox Catholic men become priests these days. These potential wonderful fathers who would raise many orthodox Catholic children are eliminated from the breeding pool. Even though priestly celibacy has its benefits, has a strong and apostolic tradition in the West, to save us from the Muslims it would make sense to me to relax the requirement, either temporarily or permanently.

One of the priests at my parish has six children - he has been so open to life that he has had sadly leave my parish and enter the military as a chaplain. He was in Iraq - I don't know where he has been assigned now. His wife and children still attend my parish (he is an Episcopalian convert).

Unfortunately, the more orthodox a Catholic Christian is these days, the more likely they are to support continuing priestly celibacy. I'm about as orthodox as they come (albeit unpious and sinful), and I'm one of the view who supports opening up the priesthood to married men. Most of the others who would agree with me also support homosexual marriage and women's ordination - positions I find reprehensible.
I know this priest as well and I agree that he is an amazing man, and a devout minister of the Lord.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on June 14, 2010, 02:55:14 PM
This is news to me! What if they were Catholic, became Episcopalean, married, and then made "the journey home?" This hypo reminds me of the method Copts use to divorce in Egypt- convert to Islam, divorce, and return back.

What christianos said. Now, if the said Catholic left the church when he was relatively young, got married and became a priest in the Episcopal church, then returned to the church relatively older - I suspect that something like that might result in permission for him to be ordained, but if it was clear that the candidate was using that to sidestep the celibacy rule, he would certainly be disallowed.

And it is also a case by case issue.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: rakovsky on June 14, 2010, 03:46:17 PM
Quote
if it was clear that the candidate was using that to sidestep the celibacy rule, he would certainly be disallowed.

Then why does the Coptic church not excommunicate those who convert to Islam (technically speaking apostasize) to sidestep its marriage rules? (this question may apply more to Orientals)
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: christianos on June 15, 2010, 03:42:05 AM
becouse in Egypt there is no civil marriage. It's like in Lebanon, if you want to marry with someone from other denomination you have to go to Cyprus and then back to Lebanon, or like in Malta becouse there divorces are forbidden. Simply those Malteses who want to  break their relationship go to England and when they back the divorce is recognized by maltese authorities.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on June 15, 2010, 04:16:54 AM
That is an interesting thought, Father Ambrose.
It's not a bad idea really.
 I would say that it is an excellent idea for Catholic priests to show the way and set the example for the parish of having a large family of say 10 or 11 children, as some Muslim families do.

The Pope does not agree with us!

The Pope "Rethinks" Clerical Celibacy. In Order to Reinforce It

It is the sign, he says, that God exists and that one allows himself to be seized by passion for him. This makes it a great scandal, and the desire is to eliminate it. The complete transcript of Benedict XVI's latest statement on this issue. And of a surprising preview of it, from 2006.

ROME, June 15, 2010 – Benedict XVI has reached out to those who were expecting a "rethinking" of the rule of celibacy for the Latin clergy. But in his own way.

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1343736?eng=y
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: WetCatechumen on June 15, 2010, 04:50:23 AM
That is an interesting thought, Father Ambrose.
It's not a bad idea really.
 I would say that it is an excellent idea for Catholic priests to show the way and set the example for the parish of having a large family of say 10 or 11 children, as some Muslim families do.

The Pope does not agree with us!

The Pope "Rethinks" Clerical Celibacy. In Order to Reinforce It

It is the sign, he says, that God exists and that one allows himself to be seized by passion for him. This makes it a great scandal, and the desire is to eliminate it. The complete transcript of Benedict XVI's latest statement on this issue. And of a surprising preview of it, from 2006.

ROME, June 15, 2010 – Benedict XVI has reached out to those who were expecting a "rethinking" of the rule of celibacy for the Latin clergy. But in his own way.

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1343736?eng=y
I understand His Holiness's reasoning, and I empathize with much of it. Luckily, however, as this is a matter of Church discipline and not of faith or morals, I am able to respectfully disagree. :)

I do especially understand his point that it makes it all the more poignant to the world that the Catholic Church rejects the modern ideas about sexuality, most of which are much, much more dangerous to the salvation of men than the mandated celibacy of clerics in Western Christianity.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on June 15, 2010, 04:41:48 PM
That is an interesting thought, Father Ambrose.
It's not a bad idea really.
 I would say that it is an excellent idea for Catholic priests to show the way and set the example for the parish of having a large family of say 10 or 11 children, as some Muslim families do.

The Pope does not agree with us!

The Pope "Rethinks" Clerical Celibacy. In Order to Reinforce It

It is the sign, he says, that God exists and that one allows himself to be seized by passion for him. This makes it a great scandal, and the desire is to eliminate it. The complete transcript of Benedict XVI's latest statement on this issue. And of a surprising preview of it, from 2006.

ROME, June 15, 2010 – Benedict XVI has reached out to those who were expecting a "rethinking" of the rule of celibacy for the Latin clergy. But in his own way.

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1343736?eng=y
This is primarily a disciplinary issue.
BTW, what is the score for married Orthodox priests with reference to the size of their families on average?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on June 15, 2010, 07:49:45 PM

BTW, what is the score for married Orthodox priests with reference to the size of their families on average?


Just had a quick think about the priests in this country and the answer is 5.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: rakovsky on June 15, 2010, 08:28:07 PM
I know some priests with small families. Actually not too many come to mind with 5, but you may be right.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on June 15, 2010, 08:53:15 PM
I know some priests with small families. Actually not too many come to mind with 5, but you may be right.

Maybe living in a south pacific paradise inclines a man to produce children?    A few months ago it was discovered that there is a low level of zinc in our food intake and it is causing low fertility for men's sperm.  Guess what is now the most popular dietary supplement?!   :laugh:
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on June 15, 2010, 09:55:39 PM
I know some priests with small families. Actually not too many come to mind with 5, but you may be right.
Well, 5 is great, but my guess is that Orthodox priests have some catching up to do, at least with the Muslim families in our neighborhood who have 6 or more children.
Anyway, I still like your suggestion about Catholic priests getting married. It seems only right that all Catholic priests and bishops should get married and have large families of 10 children or so to set a good example to the Catholic families of their parish who are content with only two children.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Entscheidungsproblem on June 15, 2010, 09:58:30 PM
What exactly is wrong with a family being "content with only two children"?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: rakovsky on June 15, 2010, 10:11:46 PM
What exactly is wrong with a family being "content with only two children"?

Basically, it defies naturalist computationalism. We need to compute our families naturally based on nature. I hope I don't have to explain this. However, I could point you to another thread on this................. Um... maybe better just to PM me.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on June 16, 2010, 12:56:26 AM
What exactly is wrong with a family being "content with only two children"?
Are your reading this in the context of post #190 (May 16, 2010)? The allegation in that post was that Muslims are taking over Europe. My contention is that this will obviously occur since the Christian birth rate in Europe today is quite a bit lower than the Muslim birth rate. Add to that the high abortion rate in some Christian countries and you have the inevitable higher rate of increase of the Muslim population in Europe today.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Entscheidungsproblem on June 16, 2010, 01:22:46 AM
Are your reading this in the context of post #190 (May 16, 2010)? The allegation in that post was that Muslims are taking over Europe. My contention is that this will obviously occur since the Christian birth rate in Europe today is quite a bit lower than the Muslim birth rate. Add to that the high abortion rate in some Christian countries and you have the inevitable higher rate of increase of the Muslim population in Europe today.
Yes, I am reading it in context of that post.  It is just besides this need to outbreed Muslims, I don't see why a Priest/Bishop having a brood of children is such a positive example. 

Integration into Western society is incredibly important and something we must focus on, especially amongst their youth.  Many larger families, from my experiences, have been from more recent migrants and isolated familes, while more Westernised Muslim families will have your standard 1 - 3 children.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on June 19, 2010, 01:11:38 AM
General Abuse

My Take: Why I can't accept the pope's latest apology

Author: David Clohessy

Date Published: 6/14/2010

Publication: CNN Belief Blog


Editor's Note: David Clohessy is executive director of the U.S.-based international support group SNAP, the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests.
___________________________________________________

Let's be brutally honest: all of us want the Catholic Church's ongoing clergy sex abuse and cover-up crisis to end. Like the BP Gulf oil catastrophe or the never-ending Middle East conflict, it's tragic, wearing and seemingly intractable.

In fact, we're all so desperate to see some light-any light-at the end of this awful tunnel that often we look for, cling to, and exaggerate even a hint of progress. It's a dangerous place to be, because such despondency tempts us to seize on "false idols" and apparent glimmers of hope that, sadly, are illusory.

Such is the case with Pope Benedict XVI's apology on Friday.

Maybe, as some commentators claim, he was clearer than in his earlier brief comments on the crisis. Maybe, as a few Rome news correspondents suggest, there's something significant about the pope's location and timing, speaking from his balcony before thousands of priests.

But whether he says more words, clearer words, or even sadder words is fundamentally irrelevant. Words don't protect kids. Actions protect kids. A victim from our group in Virginia says it best: "No child on the planet is safer today because of what the pope said last week."

Hours after the pope's brief and vague abuse remarks, I found myself almost debating over the phone with a young reporter from a major U.S. new outlet. He seemed genuinely incredulous that I wasn't enthusiastic about Benedict's apology about the scandal.

He finally sputtered, "But this is such a grand gesture-an apology straight from the pope himself, right in St. Peter's Square!"

"You nailed it," I replied. "It is a grand gesture. And gestures-large or small-protect no one and change nothing."

Searching for any analogy that might help him better understand what's at stake, I propose that I passively watch while a criminal struggles with a child who can't swim and eventually throws the youngster into a swirling river. "Say I first whisper an apology, then apologize in a conversational tone, and finally shout `I'm so sorry' at the top of my lungs. None of that stops the child from drowning."

When it comes to the safety of children, only actions matter.

And in this crisis, decisive action is clearly possible. The pope is a monarch. He rules the worldwide church. It's not a complex, messy democracy in which delicate negotiations and balancing acts and compromises are inevitable.

The pope could issue a decree tomorrow mandating that each of the world's roughly 2,800 dioceses post on their websites the names of all proven, admitted, and credibly accused child-molesting clerics in their diocese. Bishops who don't comply would be ousted.

On most issues, talk is the pope's only weapon. He can't issue orders to combat world hunger, the AIDS epidemic, economic inequity or global warming.

With predatory priests and complicit bishops, however, he's got real power. That's what makes his refusal to act so inexcusable. Benedict really could, almost instantly, make children safer. He's been a Vatican bureaucrat for decades and the pope for five years. He has had ample time to deter future crimes and cover-ups by publicly punishing and removing those who commit, ignore or conceal child sexual abuse.

Thankfully, however, there are proven solutions that don't rely strictly on the church hierarchy. Let's face it: real reform of private institutions often comes only through outside pressure. No entity can effectively police itself, least of all an ancient, rigid, secretive, all-male monarchy with a widely-documented track record with predatory employees and complicit supervisors.

Here is what government officials can and should do:

-First, launch independent, thorough investigations into the extent of cover-ups of clergy sexual abuse in each Catholic entity-dioceses, schools and religious orders. That's what the Irish government has done. Only when a crisis is understood can it then be effectively addressed.

-Second, aggressively and creatively use existing laws to criminally pursue child molesting clerics and their complicit colleagues and managers.

-Third, eliminate or reform predator-friendly laws, including statutes of limitations, that give child sex offenders and their enablers incentive to destroy evidence, threaten witnesses, intimidate victims, fabricate alibis and flee the country.

Apologies and forgiveness, as SNAP's founder Barbara Blaine often says, are appropriate after, not during, a crisis. At this point, such pleas are at best well-meaning but inappropriate distractions from "job one"-protecting the vulnerable. With that task, sadly, the pope has barely begun. So secular authorities need to step in.

And when most predators are ousted and most enablers are disciplined, then the task of healing the wounded and understanding the crisis and devising longer-term remedies can begin. That's when real light, not illusory light, will appear at the end of this tragic tunnel. We owe it to children-those being molested today and those who will be molested tomorrow-to help create and hold out for that light.
___________________________________________________

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of David Clohessy.


Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on June 19, 2010, 10:48:08 PM
General Abuse

My Take: Why I can't accept the pope's latest apology

Author: David Clohessy

Date Published: 6/14/2010

Publication: CNN Belief Blog


Editor's Note: David Clohessy is executive director of the U.S.-based international support group SNAP, the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests.
___________________________________________________

Let's be brutally honest: all of us want the Catholic Church's ongoing clergy sex abuse and cover-up crisis to end. Like the BP Gulf oil catastrophe or the never-ending Middle East conflict, it's tragic, wearing and seemingly intractable.

In fact, we're all so desperate to see some light-any light-at the end of this awful tunnel that often we look for, cling to, and exaggerate even a hint of progress. It's a dangerous place to be, because such despondency tempts us to seize on "false idols" and apparent glimmers of hope that, sadly, are illusory.

Such is the case with Pope Benedict XVI's apology on Friday.

Maybe, as some commentators claim, he was clearer than in his earlier brief comments on the crisis. Maybe, as a few Rome news correspondents suggest, there's something significant about the pope's location and timing, speaking from his balcony before thousands of priests.

But whether he says more words, clearer words, or even sadder words is fundamentally irrelevant. Words don't protect kids. Actions protect kids. A victim from our group in Virginia says it best: "No child on the planet is safer today because of what the pope said last week."

Hours after the pope's brief and vague abuse remarks, I found myself almost debating over the phone with a young reporter from a major U.S. new outlet. He seemed genuinely incredulous that I wasn't enthusiastic about Benedict's apology about the scandal.

He finally sputtered, "But this is such a grand gesture-an apology straight from the pope himself, right in St. Peter's Square!"

"You nailed it," I replied. "It is a grand gesture. And gestures-large or small-protect no one and change nothing."

Searching for any analogy that might help him better understand what's at stake, I propose that I passively watch while a criminal struggles with a child who can't swim and eventually throws the youngster into a swirling river. "Say I first whisper an apology, then apologize in a conversational tone, and finally shout `I'm so sorry' at the top of my lungs. None of that stops the child from drowning."

When it comes to the safety of children, only actions matter.

And in this crisis, decisive action is clearly possible. The pope is a monarch. He rules the worldwide church. It's not a complex, messy democracy in which delicate negotiations and balancing acts and compromises are inevitable.

The pope could issue a decree tomorrow mandating that each of the world's roughly 2,800 dioceses post on their websites the names of all proven, admitted, and credibly accused child-molesting clerics in their diocese. Bishops who don't comply would be ousted.

On most issues, talk is the pope's only weapon. He can't issue orders to combat world hunger, the AIDS epidemic, economic inequity or global warming.

With predatory priests and complicit bishops, however, he's got real power. That's what makes his refusal to act so inexcusable. Benedict really could, almost instantly, make children safer. He's been a Vatican bureaucrat for decades and the pope for five years. He has had ample time to deter future crimes and cover-ups by publicly punishing and removing those who commit, ignore or conceal child sexual abuse.

Thankfully, however, there are proven solutions that don't rely strictly on the church hierarchy. Let's face it: real reform of private institutions often comes only through outside pressure. No entity can effectively police itself, least of all an ancient, rigid, secretive, all-male monarchy with a widely-documented track record with predatory employees and complicit supervisors.

Here is what government officials can and should do:

-First, launch independent, thorough investigations into the extent of cover-ups of clergy sexual abuse in each Catholic entity-dioceses, schools and religious orders. That's what the Irish government has done. Only when a crisis is understood can it then be effectively addressed.

-Second, aggressively and creatively use existing laws to criminally pursue child molesting clerics and their complicit colleagues and managers.

-Third, eliminate or reform predator-friendly laws, including statutes of limitations, that give child sex offenders and their enablers incentive to destroy evidence, threaten witnesses, intimidate victims, fabricate alibis and flee the country.

Apologies and forgiveness, as SNAP's founder Barbara Blaine often says, are appropriate after, not during, a crisis. At this point, such pleas are at best well-meaning but inappropriate distractions from "job one"-protecting the vulnerable. With that task, sadly, the pope has barely begun. So secular authorities need to step in.

And when most predators are ousted and most enablers are disciplined, then the task of healing the wounded and understanding the crisis and devising longer-term remedies can begin. That's when real light, not illusory light, will appear at the end of this tragic tunnel. We owe it to children-those being molested today and those who will be molested tomorrow-to help create and hold out for that light.
___________________________________________________

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of David Clohessy.




This is a bit of the sound and fury since all the author suggests has been being done already yet!!

He makes it sound as though the "crisis" is on-going.   It is not.  Finding OLD cases is on-going.  Any new cases are picked up immediately and there are extremely few accusations, true or false, being presented today.  The "crisis" is over.  It is now an appropriate time for the Holy Father to express all that he has expressed publicly.

It still has to be repeated that the overall instances of abuse in the Catholic Church at their worst are still no more than other public institutions that deal with children and NOTHING out-paces the family itself when it comes to abuse of children.

Loss of perspective is a deadly condition, and leads to excessive backlash and stupid errors of judgment that can do more harm than the original injustice.  That applies, across the boards, to all self appointed judges and witnesses.

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on June 28, 2010, 07:08:21 AM


Oh my!  The Belgian Police have held the entire episcopate of the Belgian Catholic Church under restraint for 9 hours and removed computers and masses of internal church documentation on sexual abuse.    The Pope is livid!
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Tallitot on June 28, 2010, 08:14:53 AM


Oh my!  The Belgian Police have held the entire episcopate of the Belgian Catholic Church under restraint for 9 hours and removed computers and masses of internal church documentation on sexual abuse.    The Pope is livid!
He should remember what the kitty said.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on June 28, 2010, 11:20:55 AM
Pope criticises 'deplorable' Belgian Church raid

By Ljubomir Milasin (AFP)

VATICAN CITY — Pope Benedict XVI on Sunday accused Belgian police of "deplorable methods" in raiding a bishops' meeting as part of a paedophilia probe, as Brussels said the Vatican was over-reacting......

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jWzlH8kMkrKsPBAVI2KhNhR9cRlA
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on June 28, 2010, 11:25:21 AM

Vatican lawyers fight attempt to interrogate Pope Benedict

By John L. Allen, Jr.

On the same day that Belgian police raided church offices to seize documents in a sex abuse probe, the Vatican found itself in the courts of another country, this time the United States, trying to fend off attempts to interrogate the pope and other senior Vatican officials in another case involving clerical sexual abuse.

Vatican attorneys filed a brief on Thursday in U.S. District Court in Kentucky in the case of O’Bryan v. Holy See, opposing requests from lawyers representing three sex abuse victims for depositions of four figures at the very top of the church’s power structure:

• Pope Benedict XVI
• Italian Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, the Vatican’s Secretary of State
• American Cardinal William Levada, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
• Italian Archbishop Pietro Sambi, the Vatican’s nuncio, or ambassador, in the United States

Read more:   http://life.nationalpost.com/2010/06/27/vatican-lawyer-fight-attempt-to-interrogate-benedict/

http://life.nationalpost.com/2010/06/27/vatican-lawyer-fight-attempt-to-interrogate-benedict/#ixzz0sA5RYZHz


Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on June 28, 2010, 11:39:35 AM

He makes it sound as though the "crisis" is on-going.   It is not.  Finding OLD cases is on-going.  Any new cases are picked up immediately and there are extremely few accusations, true or false, being presented today.  The "crisis" is over.

I am not sure if you have made the right judgement call.

There is the crisis in Europe which seems to be in its incipient stages and far from over.

There is the crisis in the US which to judge by the information now appearing is also far from over, especially with the several attempts to indict or depose the Pope and senior cardinals in the American courts.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Sloga on June 28, 2010, 12:31:58 PM
I think Rome has hit an all-time low with credibility. Pope Benny didn't step down?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on June 28, 2010, 12:36:42 PM

He makes it sound as though the "crisis" is on-going.   It is not.  Finding OLD cases is on-going.  Any new cases are picked up immediately and there are extremely few accusations, true or false, being presented today.  The "crisis" is over.

I am not sure if you have made the right judgement call.

There is the crisis in Europe which seems to be in its incipient stages and far from over.

There is the crisis in the US which to judge by the information now appearing is also far from over, especially with the several attempts to indict or depose the Pope and senior cardinals in the American courts.

I will yield your point if and only if:

1. There is clear and direct evidence that there are a significant number of new cases surfacing rather than current attention drawn to old cases.

2.  There is clear and direct evidence that there are currently efforts to hide this abundance of new cases of abuse.

Till then I will stand by my comment.

EM
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on June 28, 2010, 01:01:11 PM
I think Rome has hit an all-time low with credibility. Pope Benny didn't step down?

Can you at least be respectful enough to refer to him as Pope Benedict?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on June 28, 2010, 01:08:12 PM

2.  There is clear and direct evidence that there are currently efforts to hide this abundance of new cases of abuse.

Till then I will stand by my comment.

EM

It would seem that the Belgian Police, judging by the literally hundreds of newspaper reports, see these Belgian cases as new cases (new cases for the justice system at least but known to the Roman Catholic Church authorities.)  The intense culture of secrecy pervading European Catholicism has meant the concealment of these crimes from the civil authorities.

I think therefore that you are just playing somewhat disingenuous word games by banging on about "new" cases.    For example, the abuse by Bishop Roger Vangheluwe of Bruges was revealed only 3 months ago in April and many of the cases in Europe are "new" cases.  
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on June 28, 2010, 01:11:35 PM
Belgium church panel on sex abuse shuts after raid
By ROBERT WIELAARD (AP) – 55 minutes ago

BRUSSELS — A panel appointed by the Catholic church to investigate clerical sex abuse in Belgium is shutting down after police seized all its files during a raid last week, the group's chairman said Monday.

Peter Adriaenssens, a child psychiatrist who chaired the panel, said authorities betrayed the trust of nearly 500 victims who had made complaints over the past two months to the church panel and blamed state prosecutors for pursuing victims too traumatized to speak to police.

More at

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gI5tWYlvPP5P0wkYeyn3thMVdP6wD9GKCK100
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on June 28, 2010, 02:32:48 PM

2.  There is clear and direct evidence that there are currently efforts to hide this abundance of new cases of abuse.

Till then I will stand by my comment.

EM

It would seem that the Belgian Police, judging by the literally hundreds of newspaper reports, see these Belgian cases as new cases (new cases for the justice system at least but known to the Roman Catholic Church authorities.)  The intense culture of secrecy pervading European Catholicism has meant the concealment of these crimes from the civil authorities.

I think therefore that you are just playing somewhat disingenuous word games by banging on about "new" cases.    For example, the abuse by Bishop Roger Vangheluwe of Bruges was revealed only 3 months ago in April and many of the cases in Europe are "new" cases.  

New to the authorities is an even more disingenuous, since the data shows that most of the "old" cases in the United States had been reported to the police and all and sundry ignored them...

It seems from other reports that I have seen that the real "news" is that finally, after 60 years and plenty of bad press and the fact that the legal system's historic lack of interest in protecting both women and children from sexual crimes,  the police are taking an interest lest they be charged with misfeasance as well.

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on June 28, 2010, 03:26:13 PM
Supreme Court rejects Vatican appeal in sex abuse case


(Reuters) - The U.S. Supreme Court refused on Monday to consider whether the Vatican has legal immunity over the sexual abuse of minors by priests in the United States, allowing a lawsuit filed in 2002 to go forward.

U.S.

The nation's highest court, asked to rule on a U.S. appeals court decision that cleared the way for the lawsuit to proceed, rejected the Vatican's immunity appeal without comment.

The lawsuit, filed by a plaintiff identified only as John Doe, claimed he was sexually abused on several occasions in the mid-1960s when he was 15 or 16 by a Roman Catholic priest named Father Andrew Ronan.

According to court documents, Ronan molested boys in the mid-1950s as a priest in Ireland and then in Chicago before his transfer to a church in Portland, Oregon, where he allegedly abused the victim who filed the lawsuit. Ronan died in 1992.

The Vatican claimed immunity under a U.S. law, the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act of 1976, that allows foreign states to avoid being sued in court.

But the law contains exceptions. The appeals court cited one of those, ruling the lawsuit has sufficiently alleged that Ronan was an employee of the Vatican acting within the scope of his employment under Oregon law.

Pope Benedict met victims of abuse by priests during his April 2008 visit to the United States. The U.S. church has paid $2 billion in settlements to victims since 1992.

In recent months, child abuse allegations against Catholic priests have rocked the United States and Europe, forcing resignations of bishops in Ireland, Belgium and Germany in the biggest crisis in Benedict's five-year pontificate.

In the Oregon case, the Obama administration backed the Vatican and said the appeals court erred in ruling that a victim's claim of sexual abuse by a priest falls within the exception to foreign sovereign immunity law.

But administration lawyers said the ruling did not warrant review by the Supreme Court "at this time."

(Editing by John O'Callaghan)

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65R3UB20100628 (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65R3UB20100628)



Ughhhh. This whole situation is aweful and getting worse by the minute. Please keep us Catholics in your prayers.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on June 28, 2010, 03:30:36 PM
I am not the kind of person who runs around saying the sky is falling, or that the end is near, but I wonder if this whole situation is going to lead to widespread persecution of the Catholic Church. :(
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: rakovsky on June 28, 2010, 04:43:17 PM
I am not the kind of person who runs around saying the sky is falling, or that the end is near, but I wonder if this whole situation is going to lead to widespread persecution of the Catholic Church. :(

Do you consider preventing abuse of children a danger to the Catholic Church?

Just allow married clergy like in ancient church and problem will get alot less.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Jetavan on June 28, 2010, 04:50:57 PM
Supreme Court rejects Vatican appeal in sex abuse case
....
Ughhhh. This whole situation is aweful and getting worse by the minute. Please keep us Catholics in your prayers.
Aren't there at least 4 Catholics on the SCOTUS?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: rakovsky on June 28, 2010, 05:01:05 PM
Supreme Court rejects Vatican appeal in sex abuse case
....
Ughhhh. This whole situation is aweful and getting worse by the minute. Please keep us Catholics in your prayers.
Aren't there at least 4 Catholics on the SCOTUS?

Good point. Catholic Church will best clean itself from within. Likewise, their Church will seek unity with other Christians if Catholics pressure the leadership.

This is probably not a problem we as Orthodox can directly make them fix.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: PeterTheAleut on June 28, 2010, 05:28:18 PM
I am not the kind of person who runs around saying the sky is falling, or that the end is near, but I wonder if this whole situation is going to lead to widespread persecution of the Catholic Church. :(

Do you consider preventing abuse of children a danger to the Catholic Church?

Just allow married clergy like in ancient church and problem will get alot less.
A very common misconception, I think.  Those who sexually abuse children are just as likely to do so if they're married as they are if they're unmarried.  I don't see that allowing ordained men a legitimate way to act on their sexual desires is going to reduce the incidence of sexual abuse of children, since pedophilia and ephebophilia are really, to my knowledge, psychological disorders that have very little to do with sexual desire per se.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: prophetessanna on June 28, 2010, 06:18:01 PM
Supreme Court rejects Vatican appeal in sex abuse case
....
Ughhhh. This whole situation is aweful and getting worse by the minute. Please keep us Catholics in your prayers.
Aren't there at least 4 Catholics on the SCOTUS?

Six at present: Roberts, Thomas, Scalia, Kennedy, Alito and Sotomeyer.  I don't know how strong their practices are, just that at one time or another, they were attached to the Catholic Church.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: rakovsky on June 28, 2010, 06:35:16 PM
I am not the kind of person who runs around saying the sky is falling, or that the end is near, but I wonder if this whole situation is going to lead to widespread persecution of the Catholic Church. :(

Do you consider preventing abuse of children a danger to the Catholic Church?

Just allow married clergy like in ancient church and problem will get alot less.
A very common misconception, I think.  Those who sexually abuse children are just as likely to do so if they're married as they are if they're unmarried.  I don't see that allowing ordained men a legitimate way to act on their sexual desires is going to reduce the incidence of sexual abuse of children, since pedophilia and ephebophilia are really, to my knowledge, psychological disorders that have very little to do with sexual desire per se.



"Those who sexually abuse children are just as likely to do so if they're married as they are if they're unmarried."

This could be correct. Persons could be just as likely to abuse kids whether they are married or not.

However, this seems different from the celibacy situation where you require people to make a choice between having a family and having to be celibate forever.

A young person with normal health and normal love of kids might be faced with a very tough choice. He might say "I can serve God in some way and have a family too" without having the priesthood.
Others will have no such compunction.
Thus, an absolute celibacy for all priests acts as a kind of large-scale filter.

Thus, even if marriage itself doesn't prevent someone from hurting kids, and unhealthy people are about as likely to get married, then still for most people, who don't seriously consider the priesthood, the choice of dedicating to celibacy is not a factor.

Further, I heard that the Orthodox model for a parish is generally to have a Batushka and Matushka, who play similar roles in caring for their parish as a family. Basically, I think Orthodoxy treats this model as the healthy model of how a parish should be.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Tallitot on June 28, 2010, 07:59:59 PM
I am not the kind of person who runs around saying the sky is falling, or that the end is near, but I wonder if this whole situation is going to lead to widespread persecution of the Catholic Church. :(
Pesecution and prosecution are not the same thing.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on June 28, 2010, 08:03:32 PM
I am not the kind of person who runs around saying the sky is falling, or that the end is near, but I wonder if this whole situation is going to lead to widespread persecution of the Catholic Church. :(

Do you consider preventing abuse of children a danger to the Catholic Church?

Just allow married clergy like in ancient church and problem will get alot less.
What a silly question. Its like asking "Do you still beat your wife?". You can't answer it without losing.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on June 28, 2010, 08:27:37 PM
 ;D...(http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/ani/popcorn.gif)
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on June 28, 2010, 08:33:30 PM
;D...(http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/ani/popcorn.gif)

Do you confess this mockery that you do against your brothers and sisters in Christ, or do you think that you are given extra grace for your behavior?

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Tallitot on June 28, 2010, 08:38:07 PM
Supreme Court rejects Vatican appeal in sex abuse case
....
Ughhhh. This whole situation is aweful and getting worse by the minute. Please keep us Catholics in your prayers.
Aren't there at least 4 Catholics on the SCOTUS?

Six at present: Roberts, Thomas, Scalia, Kennedy, Alito and Sotomeyer.  I don't know how strong their practices are, just that at one time or another, they were attached to the Catholic Church.
Scalia is a practicing Catholic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalia#Faith
But what does their personal religious affiliation have to do with anything? As judges thier duty is to put aside personal feelings and adjudicate based on the law and the Constitution.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: rakovsky on June 28, 2010, 09:03:38 PM
Do you consider preventing abuse of children a danger to the Catholic Church?

What a silly question. You can't answer it without losing.

??????????????? !!!!!!!

You can't answer:
"NO, I DO NOT CONSIDER PREVENTING ABUSE OF CHILDREN A DANGER TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH"   without losing?

????????????????? !!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on June 28, 2010, 09:13:28 PM
;D...(http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/ani/popcorn.gif)

Do you confess this mockery that you do against your brothers and sisters in Christ, or do you think that you are given extra grace for your behavior?

Mary

All it means is, I'm following this tread closely thats all......... ;D
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on June 28, 2010, 10:26:34 PM
;D...(http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/ani/popcorn.gif)

Do you confess this mockery that you do against your brothers and sisters in Christ, or do you think that you are given extra grace for your behavior?

Mary

All it means is, I'm following this tread closely thats all......... ;D

I'll accept that and for your sake hope that it is all that you mean.

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on June 29, 2010, 12:02:29 AM
The National Catholic Reporter has some interesting things to say about the raids in Belgium.

http://ncronline.org/news/accountability/belgium-perfect-storm-sex-abuse-crisis
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on June 29, 2010, 12:19:15 AM
;D...(http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/ani/popcorn.gif)

Do you confess this mockery that you do against your brothers and sisters in Christ, or do you think that you are given extra grace for your behavior?

Mary

All it means is, I'm following this tread closely that's all......... ;D

I'll accept that and for your sake hope that it is all that you mean.

Mary
Thank You !For My spiritual Wellfare.....

All The Talk Of Unity, Between East  and West , Vatican  can't Have Any Hidden Skeletons In it's Closet,everything must ,should be brought out into the light of day...Hopfully By the Grace Of God Before Unity is achived ,The western Church [Rome]Allows It's clergy A choice celebacy or marrage... ;D
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: WetCatechumen on June 29, 2010, 12:43:49 AM
;D...(http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/ani/popcorn.gif)

Do you confess this mockery that you do against your brothers and sisters in Christ, or do you think that you are given extra grace for your behavior?

Mary

All it means is, I'm following this tread closely that's all......... ;D

I'll accept that and for your sake hope that it is all that you mean.

Mary
Thank You !For My spiritual Wellfare.....

All The Talk Of Unity, Between East  and West , Vatican  can't Have Any Hidden Skeletons In it's Closet,everything must ,should be brought out into the light of day...Hopfully By the Grace Of God Before Unity is achived ,The western Church [Rome]Allows It's clergy A choice celebacy or marrage... ;D
My understanding is that we tried to force clerical celibacy upon you at Nicæa. Respectfully, the cause of the sex abuse scandals has nothing to do with clerical celibacy. If it did, the ones being abused would be adult women. I personally think that it would be great to relax the celibacy discipline, but clerical continence has been practiced in the West since before Nicæa I and celibacy was always encouraged.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: rakovsky on June 29, 2010, 12:58:24 AM
Respectfully, the cause of the sex abuse scandals has nothing to do with clerical celibacy. If it did, the ones being abused would be adult women.

Wet,

Please see my explanation at post 267. First, adult women are better able to protect themselves. But second, the celibacy rule acts as a filter, such that people with healthy sexuality with strong attraction to adult women would have a hard time choosing celibate priesthood when they can also serve God as lay people. The issue is not the marriage stops abuse or that celibacy itself forces it, but that the celibacy requirement acts as a kind of filter against people with strong healthy attractions and desires to have families. Orthodox model is to have a batushka and matushka for their church family in parallel with a real family. Supposedly this model was considered healthier.

From Catholic apologetics, the coloquial explanation I got was that being a priest is hard work and they want people who will dedicate them to the church as a bride instead of to a physical bride. Maybe we Orthodox are lazy sompared to busy Western work ethics, but Orthodox way seems good to me.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on June 29, 2010, 01:16:47 AM
;D...(http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/ani/popcorn.gif)

Do you confess this mockery that you do against your brothers and sisters in Christ, or do you think that you are given extra grace for your behavior?

Mary

All it means is, I'm following this tread closely that's all......... ;D

I'll accept that and for your sake hope that it is all that you mean.

Mary
Thank You !For My spiritual Wellfare.....

All The Talk Of Unity, Between East  and West , Vatican  can't Have Any Hidden Skeletons In it's Closet,everything must ,should be brought out into the light of day...Hopfully By the Grace Of God Before Unity is achived ,The western Church [Rome]Allows It's clergy A choice celebacy or marrage... ;D

You are welcome! For your spiritual welfare...I actually and sincerely do think about such things.  I cannot read your heart of course, so I am happy that you took me seriously and replied in kind trusting that my concern is real.

I don't know that a choice between a married or a single priestly will happen in the Latin rite, Stash.  I don't believe that there will be a choice, any more than Orthodoxy would ever give up her tradition of married priests.   I don't know if I am right in my estimations with any absolute certitude, but I do know with much greater certitude that there will be much stricter guidelines upheld in seminaries for generations to come.

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on June 29, 2010, 02:04:13 AM
Why the raids on the Catholic bishops and offices took place

Warning About Church’s Abuse Documents Led Belgian Police to Raid Its Offices
By DOREEN CARVAJAL
Published: June 28, 2010

MECHELEN, Belgium — Four days after a series of police raids of Catholic institutions in Belgium that drew sharp criticism from the pope, the reason for the unusually aggressive operation has emerged: a formal accusation that the church was hiding information on sexual abuse lodged by the former president of an internal church commission handling such cases.

The declaration to the police set off four raids in which the authorities seized hundreds of case files from the commission’s current leader, detained a group of bishops for more than nine hours and disturbed the tomb of a cardinal where construction work had recently been done. Investigators drilled into the tomb and lowered a camera, but found only the remains.

Investigators are now analyzing more than two truckloads of seized documents, many related to 475 complaints lodged with the sex-abuse commission after the resignation in April of a popular bishop who admitted that, early in his career, he had molested a boy.


Go to
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/29/world/europe/29brussels.html?hpw


Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Sloga on June 29, 2010, 02:15:34 AM
I think Rome has hit an all-time low with credibility. Pope Benny didn't step down?

Can you at least be respectful enough to refer to him as Pope Benedict?

Honestly, I respected him with all the Hitler youth stuff because I understood his situation as a child. I wrote a paper on Pope Pius during WW2 fully defending him. I am fully capable of offering a Pope respect at times when even a lot of people can't, even though I am not required to do so. Religiously, I find it nearly impossible to respect him since he dropped the title Patriarch of the West.

 That said, even if he converted to Orthodox, I would struggle to respect an individual that wouldn't at the very least show respect to the Christian faith by stepping down for such accusations. Maybe Cardinal Ratzinger didn't have anything to do with a cover up in the 80s (but maybe he did) but whether you like it or not, the fact that he wanted to go after that Mexican priest in 1999 and was told to halt by the late Pope John Paul and conceded to that is a double blow to the Papacy and the Christian spirit. In 2004 Pope John Paul honored that same priest, where was Ratzinger? at the very least he should have protested and stepped down. Instead, that shows he is either not too bright or that his perception of the Christian faith is skewed, to say the least. Only after did he go all out on the priest and it was only this year that Rome issued a guilty statement about him. I'm sorry to say such things about your head of church but I'm confident I have the facts straight and the truth hurts. If you feel I have something wrong feel free to correct me, but too many sex scandals wrapped around the current and previous Pope for my liking.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on June 29, 2010, 03:29:32 AM
Supreme Court Allows Vatican Sex Abuse Case to Go Forward  

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/28/majority-catholic-supreme_n_627846.html

WASHINGTON (AP)-- The Supreme Court won't stop a lawsuit that accuses the Vatican of conspiring with U.S. church officials to transfer a priest from city to city despite repeated accusations that the clergyman sexually abused young people.


The high court Monday refused to hear an appeal from the Vatican, a decision that allows the lawsuit to move forward. No one has ever successfully sued the Vatican over sex abuse by clergy.

The imagination boggles at the thought of the Pope being arraigned or required tro give a deposition by a US court.  All that we inconsequential small fry can do in this unfolding of unimaginable events is pull up and chair and watch ...(http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/ani/popcorn.gif)


Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on June 29, 2010, 04:02:24 AM
Belgian church mulls legal action after paedophilia raids

(AFP)BRUSSELS — A Catholic archdiocese could sue the Belgian state over police raids on church property carried out as part of a paedophilia investigation, a lawyer said Saturday, amid Vatican indignation.

Fernand Keuleneer, lawyer for the Mechelen-Brussels archdiocese, said he had his "doubts" over whether the authorities' actions on Thursday were legal.

His comments came as the Vatican returned to the attack over the police raids on Thursday against a background of fresh claims of child abuse by members of the clergy.


Go to
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5g3KsUmyjv-YfoQWmb1Aqky_1wAAg
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Tallitot on June 29, 2010, 07:30:57 AM


The imagination boggles at the thought of the Pope being arraigned or required tro give a deposition by a US court.  All that we inconsequential small fry can do in this unfolding of unimaginable events is pull up and chair and watch

Joseph Ratzinger won't be arraigned or deposed by a US court. He's immune as a head of state.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on June 29, 2010, 08:11:44 AM
Joseph Ratzinger won't be arraigned or deposed by a US court. He's immune as a head of state.

An article which raises questions about the "fictive statehood" of the Vatican:

Unholy immunity: pope's claim to be head of state may help with legal defense in abuse lawsuits, but it raises troubling church-state questions.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Unholy+immunity%3A+pope's+claim+to+be+head+of+state+may+help+with+legal...-a0227298622

"The Catholic Church isn't truly a sovereign nation" and that "to allow it to play one on the international stage perverts the meaning of statehood."

"A long history of diplomatic maneuvering has so far provided the church with the trappings of a state, enabling it to shield the pope and its leaders from the pedophilia scandal."

Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on June 29, 2010, 10:26:36 AM
Do you consider preventing abuse of children a danger to the Catholic Church?

What a silly question. You can't answer it without losing.

??????????????? !!!!!!!

You can't answer:
"NO, I DO NOT CONSIDER PREVENTING ABUSE OF CHILDREN A DANGER TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH"   without losing?

????????????????? !!!!!!!!
Another silly question. What do you think my answer would be? Why are even bothering to ask such a silly question?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on June 29, 2010, 10:31:44 AM
I think Rome has hit an all-time low with credibility. Pope Benny didn't step down?

Can you at least be respectful enough to refer to him as Pope Benedict?

Honestly, I respected him with all the Hitler youth stuff because I understood his situation as a child. I wrote a paper on Pope Pius during WW2 fully defending him. I am fully capable of offering a Pope respect at times when even a lot of people can't, even though I am not required to do so. Religiously, I find it nearly impossible to respect him since he dropped the title Patriarch of the West.

 That said, even if he converted to Orthodox, I would struggle to respect an individual that wouldn't at the very least show respect to the Christian faith by stepping down for such accusations. Maybe Cardinal Ratzinger didn't have anything to do with a cover up in the 80s (but maybe he did) but whether you like it or not, the fact that he wanted to go after that Mexican priest in 1999 and was told to halt by the late Pope John Paul and conceded to that is a double blow to the Papacy and the Christian spirit. In 2004 Pope John Paul honored that same priest, where was Ratzinger? at the very least he should have protested and stepped down. Instead, that shows he is either not too bright or that his perception of the Christian faith is skewed, to say the least. Only after did he go all out on the priest and it was only this year that Rome issued a guilty statement about him. I'm sorry to say such things about your head of church but I'm confident I have the facts straight and the truth hurts. If you feel I have something wrong feel free to correct me, but too many sex scandals wrapped around the current and previous Pope for my liking.
The problem is that there are no sex scandals wrapped around this Pope. You are just being disrespectful. No one is asking you to like Pope Benedict. No one is asking you to agree with him. But for the sake of the Catholics in this room, don't call him "Bennie". A little Chrisitian Charity on your part would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on June 29, 2010, 10:32:08 AM
Joseph Ratzinger won't be arraigned or deposed by a US court. He's immune as a head of state.

An article which raises questions about the "fictive statehood" of the Vatican:

Unholy immunity: pope's claim to be head of state may help with legal defense in abuse lawsuits, but it raises troubling church-state questions.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Unholy+immunity%3A+pope's+claim+to+be+head+of+state+may+help+with+legal...-a0227298622

"The Catholic Church isn't truly a sovereign nation" and that "to allow it to play one on the international stage perverts the meaning of statehood."

"A long history of diplomatic maneuvering has so far provided the church with the trappings of a state, enabling it to shield the pope and its leaders from the pedophilia scandal."



It's correct that the Catholic Church is not a sovereign nation, but the Vatican is a sovereign nation. And, it just so happens that th head of the Vatican nation-state is Pope Benedict XVI.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on June 29, 2010, 10:46:57 AM
You know what... Let the U.S. government try and depose the Pope. Let's see what happens. I bet it won't end well for the U.S. government and it will end in a particularly ugly fashion for which ever political party is in power at the time.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on June 29, 2010, 11:04:58 AM
Belgium trumps Vatican on chuch abuse probes

By ROBERT WIELAARD (AP) – 19 hours ago

BRUSSELS — Belgium insisted Monday in a dispute with the Vatican over credibility that Belgian law enforcement authorities — not the potentially biased Catholic Church — will investigate sexual abuse cases involving clergy.

Go to
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gI5tWYlvPP5P0wkYeyn3thMVdP6wD9GKFTS00
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Sloga on June 29, 2010, 11:56:27 AM
The problem is that there are no sex scandals wrapped around this Pope

none at all you are correct!
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on June 29, 2010, 12:04:30 PM
Respectfully, the cause of the sex abuse scandals has nothing to do with clerical celibacy. If it did, the ones being abused would be adult women.

Wet,

Please see my explanation at post 267. First, adult women are better able to protect themselves. But second, the celibacy rule acts as a filter, such that people with healthy sexuality with strong attraction to adult women would have a hard time choosing celibate priesthood when they can also serve God as lay people. The issue is not the marriage stops abuse or that celibacy itself forces it, but that the celibacy requirement acts as a kind of filter against people with strong healthy attractions and desires to have families. Orthodox model is to have a batushka and matushka for their church family in parallel with a real family. Supposedly this model was considered healthier.

From Catholic apologetics, the coloquial explanation I got was that being a priest is hard work and they want people who will dedicate them to the church as a bride instead of to a physical bride. Maybe we Orthodox are lazy sompared to busy Western work ethics, but Orthodox way seems good to me.

Interestingly though, we Orthodox are more than happy to adopt the Roman Catholic utilitarian argument when it comes to bishops.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on June 29, 2010, 12:10:23 PM
The problem is that there are no sex scandals wrapped around this Pope

I remember when he was elected and a few groups on the internet were offering large sums of money for any dirt on this Pope.   As far as I know, none was found.  Squeaky clean.

As Popes go, he is a good one and it is unfortunate that his pontificate has become mired in the sex scandals.

(http://edmontonsingh.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/pope.jpg)
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Sloga on June 29, 2010, 12:20:12 PM
I think Rome has hit an all-time low with credibility. Pope Benny didn't step down?

Can you at least be respectful enough to refer to him as Pope Benedict?

Honestly, I respected him with all the Hitler youth stuff because I understood his situation as a child. I wrote a paper on Pope Pius during WW2 fully defending him. I am fully capable of offering a Pope respect at times when even a lot of people can't, even though I am not required to do so. Religiously, I find it nearly impossible to respect him since he dropped the title Patriarch of the West.

 That said, even if he converted to Orthodox, I would struggle to respect an individual that wouldn't at the very least show respect to the Christian faith by stepping down for such accusations. Maybe Cardinal Ratzinger didn't have anything to do with a cover up in the 80s (but maybe he did) but whether you like it or not, the fact that he wanted to go after that Mexican priest in 1999 and was told to halt by the late Pope John Paul and conceded to that is a double blow to the Papacy and the Christian spirit. In 2004 Pope John Paul honored that same priest, where was Ratzinger? at the very least he should have protested and stepped down. Instead, that shows he is either not too bright or that his perception of the Christian faith is skewed, to say the least. Only after did he go all out on the priest and it was only this year that Rome issued a guilty statement about him. I'm sorry to say such things about your head of church but I'm confident I have the facts straight and the truth hurts. If you feel I have something wrong feel free to correct me, but too many sex scandals wrapped around the current and previous Pope for my liking.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on June 29, 2010, 01:22:25 PM
The problem is that there are no sex scandals wrapped around this Pope

none at all you are correct!
I often am. :)
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on June 29, 2010, 01:22:26 PM
The problem is that there are no sex scandals wrapped around this Pope

I remember when he was elected and a few groups on the internet were offering large sums of money for any dirt on this Pope.   As far as I know, none was found.  Squeaky clean.

As Popes go, he is a good one and it is unfortunate that his pontificate has become mired in the sex scandals.

(http://edmontonsingh.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/pope.jpg)

Thank you for kind words concerning our Pope Fr. Ambrose.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on June 29, 2010, 01:22:26 PM
I think Rome has hit an all-time low with credibility. Pope Benny didn't step down?

Can you at least be respectful enough to refer to him as Pope Benedict?

Honestly, I respected him with all the Hitler youth stuff because I understood his situation as a child. I wrote a paper on Pope Pius during WW2 fully defending him. I am fully capable of offering a Pope respect at times when even a lot of people can't, even though I am not required to do so. Religiously, I find it nearly impossible to respect him since he dropped the title Patriarch of the West.

 That said, even if he converted to Orthodox, I would struggle to respect an individual that wouldn't at the very least show respect to the Christian faith by stepping down for such accusations. Maybe Cardinal Ratzinger didn't have anything to do with a cover up in the 80s (but maybe he did) but whether you like it or not, the fact that he wanted to go after that Mexican priest in 1999 and was told to halt by the late Pope John Paul and conceded to that is a double blow to the Papacy and the Christian spirit. In 2004 Pope John Paul honored that same priest, where was Ratzinger? at the very least he should have protested and stepped down. Instead, that shows he is either not too bright or that his perception of the Christian faith is skewed, to say the least. Only after did he go all out on the priest and it was only this year that Rome issued a guilty statement about him. I'm sorry to say such things about your head of church but I'm confident I have the facts straight and the truth hurts. If you feel I have something wrong feel free to correct me, but too many sex scandals wrapped around the current and previous Pope for my liking.
Source?
Elaborate?
BTW, its not the job of the head of the CDF to pursue sexual abuse casess.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: rakovsky on June 29, 2010, 03:21:57 PM
I did read some suggestions about his involvement in abuse of children (perhaps not sexual) from his time as a manager of a school in Germany.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on June 29, 2010, 03:36:05 PM
I did read some suggestions about his involvement in abuse of children (perhaps not sexual) from his time as a manager of a school in Germany.

Suggestions. wow. Solid stuff.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on June 29, 2010, 04:53:51 PM
 ;D...(http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/ani/popcorn.gif)

Austrian Catholics ramp up quest for church reform- Link
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28459.0.html

Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: rakovsky on June 29, 2010, 05:09:48 PM
I did read some suggestions about his involvement in abuse of children (perhaps not sexual) from his time as a manager of a school in Germany.

Suggestions. wow. Solid stuff.

It was something on the level of the person running the school was abusing kids and he was ok with it.

There is also criticism about how he knew of a cardinal in Mexico abusing kids and didn't complain when the then-pope accepted the abuse when [Cardinal?] Ratzinger took issue with it. However, Ratzinger recently I think took action against the cardinal. People complain that he should have gone public, opposed the then-pope openly. Personally I think this shows Cardinal Ratzinger in a partially good light, since his acceptance of the abuse came from the Catholic Church's system of blind fealty to the Pope, rather than from personal approval of abuse.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on June 29, 2010, 06:24:13 PM

Joseph Ratzinger won't be arraigned or deposed by a US court. He's immune as a head of state.

While it does seem unlikely that he will be arraigned in the US, but then so did the actions of Belgium last Thursday seem unthinkable until they actually took place.

There are exceptions to the jurisdictional immunity of a foreign state.   The legal argument in the US will centre on whether the American bishops are employees of the Pope.  Since he is the person who hires them and fires them a case can be made that they are.


§ 1605. General exceptions to the jurisdictional immunity of a foreign state
(a) A foreign state shall not be immune from the jurisdiction of courts of the United States or of the States in any case—

(5) in which money damages are sought against a foreign state for personal injury or death, or damage to or loss of property, occurring in the United States and caused by the tortious act or omission of that foreign state or of any official or employee of that foreign state while acting within the scope of his office or employment...


http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/28/usc_sec_28_00001605----000-.html
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on June 29, 2010, 08:52:15 PM
I did read some suggestions about his involvement in abuse of children (perhaps not sexual) from his time as a manager of a school in Germany.

Suggestions. wow. Solid stuff.

It was something on the level of the person running the school was abusing kids and he was ok with it.

There is also criticism about how he knew of a cardinal in Mexico abusing kids and didn't complain when the then-pope accepted the abuse when [Cardinal?] Ratzinger took issue with it. However, Ratzinger recently I think took action against the cardinal. People complain that he should have gone public, opposed the then-pope openly. Personally I think this shows Cardinal Ratzinger in a partially good light, since his acceptance of the abuse came from the Catholic Church's system of blind fealty to the Pope, rather than from personal approval of abuse.

I know silk worms who can't spin that well!!!

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on June 30, 2010, 12:29:40 AM
Quote
Pope criticises 'deplorable' Belgian Church raid

By Ljubomir Milasin (AFP)

VATICAN CITY — Pope Benedict XVI on Sunday accused Belgian police of "deplorable methods" in raiding a bishops' meeting as part of a paedophilia probe, as Brussels said the Vatican was over-reacting......

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jWzlH8kMkrKsPBAVI2KhNhR9cRlA

What is in fact "deplorable" is the ineffective way that the Roman Catholic Church has handled its child rape crisis.   The civil powers in various countries have generously allowed the Catholic authorities to handle much of the process but now that this is seen as ineffective, it is high time for the Police and the judiciary to exercise the powers entrusted to them by law and cut through the smokescreens and the stonewalling and go after the child rapists.

About 75% of the cases involve children under the age of 15. This is a Wikipedia figure so it may not be fully accurate.  See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases

So, let the Church go about its own business in its dioceses and parishes and let the State go about its business of pursuing criminals.

If the State did in fact carry its full legal responsibilities to pursue these criminals, then Pope Benedict would not find himself in the invidious position he does right now.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: rakovsky on June 30, 2010, 01:10:07 AM
I did read some suggestions about his involvement in abuse of children (perhaps not sexual) from his time as a manager of a school in Germany.

Suggestions. wow. Solid stuff.

It was something on the level of the person running the school was abusing kids and he was ok with it.

There is also criticism about how he knew of a cardinal in Mexico abusing kids and didn't complain when the then-pope accepted the abuse when [Cardinal?] Ratzinger took issue with it. However, Ratzinger recently I think took action against the cardinal. People complain that he should have gone public, opposed the then-pope openly. Personally I think this shows Cardinal Ratzinger in a partially good light, since his acceptance of the abuse came from the Catholic Church's system of blind fealty to the Pope, rather than from personal approval of abuse.

I know silk worms who can't spin that well!!!

Mary

Are you saying that the picture that emerges about the Pope from the available material isn't clear?

(http://www.roibal.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/pope_benedict.jpg)


Such is life.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on June 30, 2010, 02:57:20 AM
The problem is that there are no sex scandals wrapped around this Pope

I remember when he was elected and a few groups on the internet were offering large sums of money for any dirt on this Pope.   As far as I know, none was found.  Squeaky clean.

As Popes go, he is a good one and it is unfortunate that his pontificate has become mired in the sex scandals.

(http://edmontonsingh.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/pope.jpg)

Thank you for kind words concerning our Pope Fr. Ambrose.

It's really sad that his prodigious talents are being deflected into the sex scandals.    He has so much to contribute to the reforming of the Catholic liturgy and to the ecumenical dialogue with our own Churches.   But he is old and his energies will not last forever and in the meantime his energy is being consumed by the need to address the scandals.   
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: rakovsky on June 30, 2010, 03:05:47 AM
It's really sad that his prodigious talents are being deflected into the sex scandals.    He has so much to contribute to the reforming of the Catholic liturgy and to the ecumenical dialogue with our own Churches.   But he is old and his energies will not last forever and in the meantime his energy is being consumed by the need to address the scandals.   

Agreed. Nonetheless, it is possible that the sex scandals bother God more than problems in the liturgy, and addressing them properly by allowing married priests would be a worthy accomplishment.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on June 30, 2010, 03:26:58 AM
Agreed. Nonetheless, it is possible that the sex scandals bother God more than problems in the liturgy, and addressing them properly by allowing married priests would be a worthy accomplishment.

I really don't think that celibate priests are the problem.  (I have a problem myself with the Latin insistence that a vocation to the priesthood *must* go hand in hand with a vocation to celibacy but that's another question.)

If we look at the American statistics, it is only 4% of the celibate Catholic priesthood which is in trouble.  That leaves 96% of the celibate priesthood which is not acting wickedly. 

Statistics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: rakovsky on June 30, 2010, 03:36:35 AM
Agreed. Nonetheless, it is possible that the sex scandals bother God more than problems in the liturgy, and addressing them properly by allowing married priests would be a worthy accomplishment.

I really don't think that celibate priests are the problem.  (I have a problem myself with the Latin insistence that a vocation to the priesthood *must* go hand in hand with a vocation to celibacy but that's another question.)

If we look at the American statistics, it is only 4% of the celibate Catholic priesthood which is in trouble.  That leaves 96% of the celibate priesthood which is not acting wickedly. 

Statistics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases

Sure, but then you can say how much more goes on then the 4%? Then compare the number with other churches and I imagine it's less. This could just be my perception from eg. THE MAGDELENE SISTERS. My belief is that Orthodox model with a Batushka and Matushka caring for the church family and raising kids of their own and having a healthy relationship together is the best standard relationship model for the church, which shows no disrespect to monk-priests who choose to be celibate and enter the church.

Of course, you and POKROV raise a point that it is not the only factor in whether abuse happens- there must be important safeguards. I'm not sure what they can be, except warning people about the danger and the need to report it.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: PeterTheAleut on June 30, 2010, 04:07:54 AM
It's really sad that his prodigious talents are being deflected into the sex scandals.    He has so much to contribute to the reforming of the Catholic liturgy and to the ecumenical dialogue with our own Churches.   But he is old and his energies will not last forever and in the meantime his energy is being consumed by the need to address the scandals.   

Agreed. Nonetheless, it is possible that the sex scandals bother God more than problems in the liturgy, and addressing them properly by allowing married priests would be a worthy accomplishment.
But, in this context, to say "properly" requires that you establish the connection between an unmarried priesthood and sexual abuse of children.  I don't think you've done that yet.

I can think of many reasons why the Roman church should allow for a married priesthood as the Orthodox Church does, but the recent child sex abuse scandals don't count as one of those reasons.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: rakovsky on June 30, 2010, 04:33:12 AM
Peter and IrishHermit,

I would prefer to think that sex abuse in the Catholic church was extremely low and never tolerated, and that it was no higher than in any other mainstream church.

Maybe I am persuaded by media and popular perceptions, but where would a popular perception about abuse in particular come from? It seems to me that the filter system of forcing people with healthy sexuality to make a choice of raising a family or joining the clergy- while others do not have this choice- is a significant explanation. I understand I have not statistically proved that it is the explanation, it just seems like a good one to me. Not sure how I can explain it better, it is just an argument from logic.

I reject that the Catholic Church wants kids to be abused, so it seems to me an unintentional result of this filter system.

To recap, I would prefer for the scandal to be extremely low and no higher than in other mainstream churches. If it is real, then the most likely cause to me seems the filter system, rather than any desire by the church to hurt kids.


Further, I would agree with you, if you say so, that the decision to allow married clergy should not just be based on "the most obvious means necessary" to prevent abuse. Rather there should be use of the doctrinal justifications you mentioned for allowing clergy to marry. Perhaps stronger safeguards could be used that would prevent abuse while maintaining the celibacy requirement. Nevertheless, doctrinal justifications combined with practical needs seem to encourage allowing married clergy.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: PeterTheAleut on June 30, 2010, 05:05:10 AM
Maybe I am persuaded by media and popular perceptions, but where would a popular perception about abuse in particular come from?
The masses are often flat wrong and can often be deceived, so I would advise you to not trust popular perception.

I reject that the Catholic Church wants kids to be abused, so it seems to me an unintentional result of this filter system.

To recap, I would prefer for the scandal to be extremely low and no higher than in other mainstream churches. If it is real, then the most likely cause to me seems the filter system, rather than any desire by the church to hurt kids.
Only if you fall prey to the logical fallacy of seeing only two possible explanations for what you think you see.  If you go back through my comments on this matter, I think you'll see that I've already posited at least one other possible explanation, that pedophilia and ephebophilia (unnatural sexual attraction to teenagers) are psychological disorders that marriage cannot cure.  Though you acknowledged that this may be so, it seems that you're still not giving a place for it in your reasoning.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on June 30, 2010, 11:06:27 AM
I did read some suggestions about his involvement in abuse of children (perhaps not sexual) from his time as a manager of a school in Germany.

Suggestions. wow. Solid stuff.

It was something on the level of the person running the school was abusing kids and he was ok with it.

There is also criticism about how he knew of a cardinal in Mexico abusing kids and didn't complain when the then-pope accepted the abuse when [Cardinal?] Ratzinger took issue with it. However, Ratzinger recently I think took action against the cardinal. People complain that he should have gone public, opposed the then-pope openly. Personally I think this shows Cardinal Ratzinger in a partially good light, since his acceptance of the abuse came from the Catholic Church's system of blind fealty to the Pope, rather than from personal approval of abuse.

I know silk worms who can't spin that well!!!

Mary

Are you saying that the picture that emerges about the Pope from the available material isn't clear?

(http://www.roibal.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/pope_benedict.jpg)


Such is life.

Correct!  I am saying the "data" is lacking and spin is paramount.

EM
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on June 30, 2010, 04:23:28 PM

Correct!  I am saying the "data" is lacking and spin is paramount.


Hopefully solid data will emerge from the almost 500 case files which the Police removed from the Catholic Church in Belgium.  These are new complaints gathered over the last two months after the resignation in late April of Bishop Roger Vangheluwe for long term sexual abuse.  One may wonder if this slew of complaints of the last two months is all of them or is there more to come.

Btw,  this thread is concerned with the abuse claims sweeping the Church in Europe.   What information is there of the major European countries, France, Spain, Italy, the Netherlands, also Poland, Croatia, Malta, etc.?  Are investigations underway?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on June 30, 2010, 04:33:48 PM

Correct!  I am saying the "data" is lacking and spin is paramount.


Hopefully solid data will emerge from the almost 500 case files which the Police removed from the Catholic Church in Belgium.  These are new complaints gathered over the last two months after the resignation in late April of Bishop Roger Vangheluwe for long term sexual abuse.  One may wonder if this slew of complaints of the last two months is all of them or is there more to come.

Btw,  this thread is concerned with the abuse claims sweeping the Church in Europe.   What information is there of the major European countries, France, Spain, Italy, the Netherlands, also Poland, Croatia, Malta, etc.?  Are investigations underway?

Fair and Balanced:  These are NEW cases concerning past abuse.  New in the sense that a CHURCH sponsored group had been actually encouraging these people, who had been too frightened to come foreward before, to do so now.  Somebody knew what the group was doing and jumped the gun, so to speak.

I think the authorities made a rather huge error in judgment, and I hope they will be sued for what they did.

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on June 30, 2010, 05:10:47 PM

Fair and Balanced:  These are NEW cases concerning past abuse.

Possibly, but you have no idea of knowing the timing of these 475 crimes revealed during May and June.  You are simply asserting without solid foundation that they are "NEW cases concerning past abuse."  Many may well be but you cannot say that some of them are not recent crimes.


Hard Facts:

The sex-abuse Commission has been in existence for over 10 years.

From 2000 to 2008 it was headed by Godelieve Halsberghe.

During her 8 year tenure only 30 complaints were received.

In the last two months since the April resignation of Bishop Roger Vangheluwe the Commission has received a flood of complaints - 475.



"Godelieve Halsberghe, said in an interview with a Flemish newspaper, Het Nieuwsblad, that she had gone to the authorities after receiving a call from a man who did not identify himself and warned her in French to “watch out” for herself and to secure the documents she held on about 30 cases she had handled during her tenure at the commission, from 2000 to 2008.

"Ms. Halsberghe, now a retired magistrate, has long been critical of the church’s efforts in Belgium to confront its past. Alarmed by the phone call, she took the documents in her keeping to the authorities and warned them that the church might be hiding others."
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/29/world/europe/29brussels.html

It was this action by Godelieve Halsberghe, the former head of the sex-abuse Commission, which caused the Police raids. 


Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on June 30, 2010, 05:16:09 PM

I think the authorities made a rather huge error in judgment, and I hope they will be sued for what they did.


Search warrants are issued by magistrates who must be convinced by the Police application that there are sufficient grounds to issue them.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on June 30, 2010, 05:23:33 PM

I think the authorities made a rather huge error in judgment, and I hope they will be sued for what they did.


Search warrants are issued by magistrates who must be convinced by the Police application that there are sufficient grounds to issue them.


Nonsense.  That phone call is not evidence but suspicion and innuendo.  And that is ALL they had.  That kind of raid is like the ATF raids in this country where they go racing into a home, scare the dickens out of everyone, kill a few, and come back out and a week later say "Ooops" because they got the wrong house.  The raid was over-kill...in other words.

And there is to date, no evidence that any of the most recent complaints are brand new cases in real time now.  So I'd wait for that if I were you.

M.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on June 30, 2010, 05:33:54 PM

And there is to date, no evidence that any of the most recent complaints are brand new cases in real time now.  So I'd wait for that if I were you.

It was not me but you who introduced the matter of the timing of these crimes and you made out that they are "NEW cases concerning past abuse."  Since you have no way of knowing that (it has not been revealed; the Police have had the files only for a week) you are just putting a spin on things.    I see that the Vatican Secretary of State Cardinal Bertone tried his own spin, claiming that the 9 detained bishops had had no food nor drink for 9 hours.   That false statement backfired on him when the Belgian Minister of Justice denied it. No apology from the Cardinal for the disinformation, the matter just lapsed.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: rakovsky on June 30, 2010, 06:55:30 PM
Maybe I am persuaded by media and popular perceptions, but where would a popular perception about abuse in particular come from?
The masses are often flat wrong and can often be deceived, so I would advise you to not trust popular perception.

I reject that the Catholic Church wants kids to be abused, so it seems to me an unintentional result of this filter system.

To recap, I would prefer for the scandal to be extremely low and no higher than in other mainstream churches. If it is real, then the most likely cause to me seems the filter system, rather than any desire by the church to hurt kids.
Only if you fall prey to the logical fallacy of seeing only two possible explanations for what you think you see.  If you go back through my comments on this matter, I think you'll see that I've already posited at least one other possible explanation, that pedophilia and ephebophilia (unnatural sexual attraction to teenagers) are psychological disorders that marriage cannot cure.  Though you acknowledged that this may be so, it seems that you're still not giving a place for it in your reasoning.


Correct, I believe that they are psychological disorders that marriage cannot cure. There is a possibility in my mind it could cure it or remove someone's attention from it if their defect is not strong, just like in the alternate people in prison do bad sexual things because of a lack of healthy relationship.

But this is beyond my reasoning. My reasoning is that the requirement of celibacy itself acts as a filter. When you give someone the absolute choice to have a family or to be a priest, a healthy-sexually person who wants a healthy sexual relationship will have a have a hard time, whereas a person who does not have normal sexuality will say "oh well, giving up marriage means little to me".

In other words, whether or not the lack of marriage encourages abuse, the fact that it is a requirement turns it into a choice that works as a filter when people are making their choices to go into the priesthood or not.

Per person, a person with normal sexuality and wants to keep open the option of having a family may be less likely to join a forced-celibate priesthood than one who doesn't have normal sexuality and for whom the choice is meaningless.


Of course, the Catholic church should not just allow married priests for a practical need to lower abuse rates, it should also consider doctrinal reasons like the healthy model of having a Batushka and Matushka for a church family.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: lubeltri on June 30, 2010, 11:17:59 PM
Well, I suppose you Orthodox better start opening up all of your monasteries and episcopal καθέδρες to married men ASAP, so you don't "filter" out "healthy" people among your monks and bishops.

Perhaps you should open them to women, too, since females are less likely to be abusers.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: rakovsky on July 01, 2010, 12:09:28 AM
Well, I suppose you Orthodox better start opening up all of your monasteries and episcopal καθέδρες to married men ASAP, so you don't "filter" out "healthy" people among your monks and bishops.

Perhaps you should open them to women, too, since females are less likely to be abusers.
Ah yes, I was going to get to that.

First of all, if monasteries would for any reason have more people with problems then it would not create much abuse because monks do not have contact with kids as much as priests.
Second, as you mentioned, this does not apply to nuns.

Third and most important, a BIG difference between the monkhood and priesthood is that monks have decided on their own to isolate themselves from the world. That is why they don't get married. They have isolated themselves in general. If monks were allowed to get married it would not be a monastery. In other words, people go into the monastery for the reason that they want to live alone away from the world and that reason in turn means that they would not want to have families. Do you see the difference?
Someone who wants to be a monk will not have trouble with the choice of giving up a family because the person who wants to be a monk is one that wants to be alone.

For someone who wants to become a priest and work in the community, this is not the case. They are a social person and their desire to be a priest comes out of a desire to serve others and NOT to be alone. Then the Catholic Church comes along and sets on them a tough requirement to give up any chance of marrying. Many people who want to be in the world as priests with normal sexuality will find this a huge obstacle and it acts as a filter.

That is why it is ok to have monasteries for people who want to live apart from the world, and it is good to have a model of a church among the world with a Batushka and Matushka where they have a family just like their parish is a family.


However, I think Peter the Aleut made a good point about doctrine. It isn't enough for me to say that priests should be allowed to marry to avoid a filter. There should be a doctrinal explanation too.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 01, 2010, 12:39:42 AM
Maybe I am persuaded by media and popular perceptions, but where would a popular perception about abuse in particular come from?
The masses are often flat wrong and can often be deceived, so I would advise you to not trust popular perception.

I reject that the Catholic Church wants kids to be abused, so it seems to me an unintentional result of this filter system.

To recap, I would prefer for the scandal to be extremely low and no higher than in other mainstream churches. If it is real, then the most likely cause to me seems the filter system, rather than any desire by the church to hurt kids.
Only if you fall prey to the logical fallacy of seeing only two possible explanations for what you think you see.  If you go back through my comments on this matter, I think you'll see that I've already posited at least one other possible explanation, that pedophilia and ephebophilia (unnatural sexual attraction to teenagers) are psychological disorders that marriage cannot cure.  Though you acknowledged that this may be so, it seems that you're still not giving a place for it in your reasoning.


Correct, I believe that they are psychological disorders that marriage cannot cure. There is a possibility in my mind it could cure it or remove someone's attention from it if their defect is not strong, just like in the alternate people in prison do bad sexual things because of a lack of healthy relationship.

But this is beyond my reasoning. My reasoning is that the requirement of celibacy itself acts as a filter. When you give someone the absolute choice to have a family or to be a priest, a healthy-sexually person who wants a healthy sexual relationship will have a have a hard time, whereas a person who does not have normal sexuality will say "oh well, giving up marriage means little to me".

In other words, whether or not the lack of marriage encourages abuse, the fact that it is a requirement turns it into a choice that works as a filter when people are making their choices to go into the priesthood or not.

Per person, a person with normal sexuality and wants to keep open the option of having a family may be less likely to join a forced-celibate priesthood than one who doesn't have normal sexuality and for whom the choice is meaningless.


Of course, the Catholic church should not just allow married priests for a practical need to lower abuse rates, it should also consider doctrinal reasons like the healthy model of having a Batushka and Matushka for a church family.
Okay, I think I see where you're going with this argument.  Of those men of the Latin Rite who have healthy sexual desires and choose not to pursue the monastic life, many will be torn between priesthood and marriage.  Some will choose the priesthood over marriage, and some will choose marriage over the priesthood.  This filters out many men with healthy sex drives who would otherwise be excellent priests (and would find marriage to be no such obstacle to ordination in the Orthodox Church).

Those men with unhealthy sexual desires for children or adolescents, OTOH, will not be torn between marriage and priesthood.  Since they can fulfill their perverted lusts without being married, they'll see no need for marriage.  Such men will then not have a desire for marriage acting as a hindrance to keep them from pursuing ordination.  As such, it stands to (your) reason that one should see in the Roman Church a higher percentage of priests who are child abusers than in the Orthodox Church.

I'm not sure yet that I can agree with this reasoning, but I at least understand it (I think).
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: rakovsky on July 01, 2010, 02:40:38 AM
Yeah that's it.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on July 01, 2010, 02:47:04 AM

And there is to date, no evidence that any of the most recent complaints are brand new cases in real time now.  So I'd wait for that if I were you.

It was not me but you who introduced the matter of the timing of these crimes and you made out that they are "NEW cases concerning past abuse."  Since you have no way of knowing that (it has not been revealed; the Police have had the files only for a week) you are just putting a spin on things.    I see that the Vatican Secretary of State Cardinal Bertone tried his own spin, claiming that the 9 detained bishops had had no food nor drink for 9 hours.   That false statement backfired on him when the Belgian Minister of Justice denied it. No apology from the Cardinal for the disinformation, the matter just lapsed.

I am not just spinning, Father.  The head of the group that was trying to identify victims indicated that many of the people, represented by the files that were taken, had been those who were most afraid to come forward.  The indication in his comments is that these are old cases that are just now coming forward to talk about their experiences.  So I am following his lead from some of his comments in the articles that I've been reading over the past couple of days.

When evidence comes out that refutes my understanding of this particular issue then you can criticize my faulty understandings.

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on July 01, 2010, 04:15:57 AM

And there is to date, no evidence that any of the most recent complaints are brand new cases in real time now.  So I'd wait for that if I were you.

It was not me but you who introduced the matter of the timing of these crimes and you made out that they are "NEW cases concerning past abuse."  Since you have no way of knowing that (it has not been revealed; the Police have had the files only for a week) you are just putting a spin on things.    I see that the Vatican Secretary of State Cardinal Bertone tried his own spin, claiming that the 9 detained bishops had had no food nor drink for 9 hours.   That false statement backfired on him when the Belgian Minister of Justice denied it. No apology from the Cardinal for the disinformation, the matter just lapsed.

I am not just spinning, Father.  The head of the group that was trying to identify victims indicated that many of the people, represented by the files that were taken, had been those who were most afraid to come forward.  The indication in his comments is that these are old cases that are just now coming forward to talk about their experiences.  So I am following his lead from some of his comments in the articles that I've been reading over the past couple of days.

When evidence comes out that refutes my understanding of this particular issue then you can criticize my faulty understandings.

Mary

Sorry, but you have gone from the nebulous "the indication of his comments" to your statement that your understanding stands without refutation and cannot be criticised.   Is that logical?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: rakovsky on July 01, 2010, 05:31:10 AM
OK, his comments indicate something, and until you have solid evidence to refute her understanding of the indication, you cannot criticize that understanding.

She understands things one way and you can't disagree with her interpretation of his suggestion unless you have SOLID PROOF?



You don't need any "solid evidence" for your refutation- it's enough to say that she understand things wrong!

Forgive me everybody if I am going ballistic, it is just funny.  :D       Be good. We all friends here.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on July 01, 2010, 05:48:59 AM
OK, his comments indicate something, and until you have solid evidence to refute her understanding of the indication, you cannot criticize that understanding.

She understands things one way and you can't disagree with her interpretation of his suggestion unless you have SOLID PROOF?


Mary's "defence" of Roman Catholic crimes against children seems to be partially based on the claim that they all took place in the distant past. Apparently this mitigates the offence.   It would seem that she is asking us to accept that sexual abusers ceased to exist among the Roman Catholic clergy in the last decade or two.

This is not the case

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases_by_country

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_by_members_of_Roman_Catholic_orders
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on July 01, 2010, 07:09:59 AM
OK, his comments indicate something, and until you have solid evidence to refute her understanding of the indication, you cannot criticize that understanding.

She understands things one way and you can't disagree with her interpretation of his suggestion unless you have SOLID PROOF?


Mary's "defence" of Roman Catholic crimes against children seems to be partially based on the claim that they all took place in the distant past. Apparently this mitigates the offence.   It would seem that she is asking us to accept that sexual abusers ceased to exist among the Roman Catholic clergy in the last decade or two.

This is not the case

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases_by_country

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_by_members_of_Roman_Catholic_orders

Oh! My God ,It's a Epidemic a Disease Thats Infected the Catholic Church World wide...Why Is Holy Orthodox Or Part Of It ,desperatly seeking to Unite with them...I'm Against Any Unity till they Get there House In order, and Major reforms and allow Married clerics... ;D
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on July 01, 2010, 07:30:23 AM

OK, his comments indicate something, and until you have solid evidence to refute her understanding of the indication, you cannot criticize that understanding.

She understands things one way and you can't disagree with her interpretation of his suggestion unless you have SOLID PROOF?

A website which mitigates against Mary's repeated statement that these are "old" crimes and simply newly reported.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sexual_abuse_scandal_in_Europe#Belgium

This site shows that the abuse was continuing in the 1990s and the 2000s.  One would like to think it was to a lesser extent but we have no hard facts about that.

In the case of the Belgium entry on the website we note that it has not yet been updated to include any data from the 475 abuse cases which have been reported in the last two months since late April (the time of the resignation of Bishop Roger Vangheluwe.)  It is this data which the Belgian Police removed from the Catholic Church last Thursday, two and a half truckloads of files.  So it will take a while to process such an amount of material.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sexual_abuse_scandal_in_Europe#Belgium
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: lubeltri on July 01, 2010, 10:47:31 AM
Just out of curiosity, why is there so much interest on the EO side about these issues? An 8-page thread is a bit much, don't you think?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on July 01, 2010, 11:05:02 AM
OK, his comments indicate something, and until you have solid evidence to refute her understanding of the indication, you cannot criticize that understanding.

She understands things one way and you can't disagree with her interpretation of his suggestion unless you have SOLID PROOF?


Mary's "defence" of Roman Catholic crimes against children seems to be partially based on the claim that they all took place in the distant past. Apparently this mitigates the offence.   It would seem that she is asking us to accept that sexual abusers ceased to exist among the Roman Catholic clergy in the last decade or two.

This is not the case

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases_by_country

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_by_members_of_Roman_Catholic_orders
You know its dishonest to say that she is defending Catholic crimes against children. She outright condems those crimes and you know it.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on July 01, 2010, 11:05:02 AM
I just don't understan this entire thread. I am not sure what any of it has to do with a celibate priesthood. Rather than throw out 1500 years of spiritual practices in the west, why not just be sure to select healthy men for the priesthood? Seems to make a great deal more sense.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on July 01, 2010, 12:04:13 PM
OK, his comments indicate something, and until you have solid evidence to refute her understanding of the indication, you cannot criticize that understanding.

She understands things one way and you can't disagree with her interpretation of his suggestion unless you have SOLID PROOF?


Mary's "defence" of Roman Catholic crimes against children seems to be partially based on the claim that they all took place in the distant past. Apparently this mitigates the offence.   It would seem that she is asking us to accept that sexual abusers ceased to exist among the Roman Catholic clergy in the last decade or two.

This is not the case

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases_by_country

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_by_members_of_Roman_Catholic_orders

This presents my position quite falsely.

Thank you for you consideration.

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on July 01, 2010, 12:04:13 PM
OK, his comments indicate something, and until you have solid evidence to refute her understanding of the indication, you cannot criticize that understanding.

She understands things one way and you can't disagree with her interpretation of his suggestion unless you have SOLID PROOF?


Mary's "defence" of Roman Catholic crimes against children seems to be partially based on the claim that they all took place in the distant past. Apparently this mitigates the offence.   It would seem that she is asking us to accept that sexual abusers ceased to exist among the Roman Catholic clergy in the last decade or two.

This is not the case

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases_by_country

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_by_members_of_Roman_Catholic_orders
You know its dishonest to say that she is defending Catholic crimes against children. She outright condems those crimes and you know it.

It's nothing more than an excuse to have a fight where there is no fight.

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on July 01, 2010, 05:10:58 PM
Just out of curiosity, why is there so much interest on the EO side about these issues? An 8-page thread is a bit much, don't you think?

The thread has been running for three and a half months.  That averages 3 posts a day.   It has sprung back into life over this past week because of the Belgian raids last Thursday.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on July 01, 2010, 05:13:15 PM
OK, his comments indicate something, and until you have solid evidence to refute her understanding of the indication, you cannot criticize that understanding.

She understands things one way and you can't disagree with her interpretation of his suggestion unless you have SOLID PROOF?


Mary's "defence" of Roman Catholic crimes against children seems to be partially based on the claim that they all took place in the distant past. Apparently this mitigates the offence.   It would seem that she is asking us to accept that sexual abusers ceased to exist among the Roman Catholic clergy in the last decade or two.

This is not the case

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases_by_country

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_by_members_of_Roman_Catholic_orders

This presents my position quite falsely.


If it does, then I apologise but it is certainly the message which I personally pick up from your postings.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on July 01, 2010, 06:05:39 PM
OK, his comments indicate something, and until you have solid evidence to refute her understanding of the indication, you cannot criticize that understanding.

She understands things one way and you can't disagree with her interpretation of his suggestion unless you have SOLID PROOF?


Mary's "defence" of Roman Catholic crimes against children seems to be partially based on the claim that they all took place in the distant past. Apparently this mitigates the offence.   It would seem that she is asking us to accept that sexual abusers ceased to exist among the Roman Catholic clergy in the last decade or two.

This is not the case

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases_by_country

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_by_members_of_Roman_Catholic_orders

This presents my position quite falsely.


If it does, then I apologise but it is certainly the message which I personally pick up from your postings.

Apparently your "vision" in this case is profoundly inaccurate.

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on July 01, 2010, 09:40:17 PM
OK, his comments indicate something, and until you have solid evidence to refute her understanding of the indication, you cannot criticize that understanding.

She understands things one way and you can't disagree with her interpretation of his suggestion unless you have SOLID PROOF?


Mary's "defence" of Roman Catholic crimes against children seems to be partially based on the claim that they all took place in the distant past. Apparently this mitigates the offence.   It would seem that she is asking us to accept that sexual abusers ceased to exist among the Roman Catholic clergy in the last decade or two.

This is not the case

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases_by_country

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_by_members_of_Roman_Catholic_orders

This presents my position quite falsely.


If it does, then I apologise but it is certainly the message which I personally pick up from your postings.

Apparently your "vision" in this case is profoundly inaccurate.

Mary

What evidence do you have to support your claim that all we have are new reports of old crimes?  What evidence do you have that the abuse has ceased?

Evidence on the various sites I have referenced would suggest that is a rather myopic view.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: rakovsky on July 01, 2010, 09:56:27 PM
I just don't understan this entire thread. I am not sure what any of it has to do with a celibate priesthood. Rather than throw out 1500 years of spiritual practices in the west, why not just be sure to select healthy men for the priesthood? Seems to make a great deal more sense.

Sure, you could encourage men to follow the spiritual practice of celibacy or monasticism, but you can throw it out as a forced requirement, since you can have a Spiritual Father and Mother for your church family.

The practice itself should not be a forced requirement simply because it is a nice custom, any more than requiring women to wear veils should be. I see more sense in requiring women to wear veils since it says it in the New Testament, while we know that marriages existed among Wetsern church leaders in the early church. So I disagree with it as a forced requirement. I mean it's your church you can do what you want. It just seems to me that Orthodox/ Eastern Catholic model is better for several reasons.

I don't find encouraging western priests to be celibate as strongly objectionable in light of Western spiritual customs that started in 500 AD with all due respect, but I am glad that our church doesn't have it.

I know that a good number of Catholic priests are ok.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on July 01, 2010, 10:07:12 PM
I just don't understan this entire thread. I am not sure what any of it has to do with a celibate priesthood. Rather than throw out 1500 years of spiritual practices in the west, why not just be sure to select healthy men for the priesthood? Seems to make a great deal more sense.

Sure, you could encourage men to follow the spiritual practice of celibacy or monasticism, but you can throw it out as a forced requirement, since you can have a Spiritual Father and Mother for your church family.

The practice itself should not be a forced requirement simply because it is a nice custom, any more than requiring women to wear veils should be. I see more sense in requiring women to wear veils since it says it in the New Testament, while we know that marriages existed among Wetsern church leaders in the early church. So I disagree with it as a forced requirement. I mean it's your church you can do what you want. It just seems to me that Orthodox/ Eastern Catholic model is better for several reasons.

We are Catholic, not Eastern Orthodox. We don't need to follow the spiritual practices of your church.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on July 01, 2010, 11:09:15 PM
OK, his comments indicate something, and until you have solid evidence to refute her understanding of the indication, you cannot criticize that understanding.

She understands things one way and you can't disagree with her interpretation of his suggestion unless you have SOLID PROOF?


Mary's "defence" of Roman Catholic crimes against children seems to be partially based on the claim that they all took place in the distant past. Apparently this mitigates the offence.   It would seem that she is asking us to accept that sexual abusers ceased to exist among the Roman Catholic clergy in the last decade or two.

This is not the case

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases_by_country

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_by_members_of_Roman_Catholic_orders

This presents my position quite falsely.


If it does, then I apologise but it is certainly the message which I personally pick up from your postings.

Apparently your "vision" in this case is profoundly inaccurate.

Mary

What evidence do you have to support your claim that all we have are new reports of old crimes?  What evidence do you have that the abuse has ceased?

Evidence on the various sites I have referenced would suggest that is a rather myopic view.

Where is your evidence that those dossiers are all new cases?   Of course there's been one or two new cases that have been reported over the passed few years but those cases have been immediately dealt with and the priests removed.  The incidence of new cases is markedly low and no where near the reported averages in the secular world...no where near.  So unless you have data that says otherwise I will stick with what I've seen reported.

I am always open to new data but not continuing innuendo and speculation....

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Schultz on July 02, 2010, 10:07:41 AM
It could be a bit of both: old incidents (as in abuse happening 20 years ago) being reported recently (in the past few years) and nothing coming of it.

There is probably more subtlety at play here but, in the end, without any other evidence, what the Belgian police found is mere speculation, period.  Until there's more information presented to us, I would think that such speculation should be beneath devout Christians.  We should merely be praying for all involved, especially the victims of clerical abuse. 
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on July 02, 2010, 10:20:12 AM

Where is your evidence that those dossiers are all new cases? 
Mary


I'd like to see where I said that.  The fact is I have never said that all these cases are new cases.

But, some cases are indeed new ones - just look at the references I have given in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sexual_abuse_scandal_in_Europe#Belgium  Some of the Belgium crimes have taken place within the last few years, up to 2008.   And I suspect that the as yet unknown data in the 475 case files removed from the Catholics by the Police will certainly contain further allegations of recent sex crimes against children and adolescents.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on July 02, 2010, 02:56:50 PM
It could be a bit of both: old incidents (as in abuse happening 20 years ago) being reported recently (in the past few years) and nothing coming of it.

There is probably more subtlety at play here but, in the end, without any other evidence, what the Belgian police found is mere speculation, period.  Until there's more information presented to us, I would think that such speculation should be beneath devout Christians.  We should merely be praying for all involved, especially the victims of clerical abuse. 

Thank you Shultz.  Follows a small portion of the reason that these cases touch my life so personally and why I may take a rather strange looking position sometimes:

Some-sharp-lawyer-body for the Vatican needs to wake the heck up and start combating this mess with data from the secular world.  If the Vatican's diplomatic immunity can be breached then EVERY political and civil body in this country should be open for suit.

I would sue the local police and the local country judiciary for mishandling a case of attempted rape back in 1974.  I was hounded, subjected to a lie detector test, badgered daily with interviews and finally reprimanded openly in a courtroom. 

The judge mocked and lectured me against the very behavior on my part that saved me, the very behavior that was, unbeknown to me, being taught in classes where women learned how to behave in rape cases to save their lives.  I was given this reprimand for my behaviors in front of the man who tried to rape me at knifepoint, who sat there while he and his lawyer snickered...

And the kicker folks is that they came to ME to file charges in the beginning because this man was a serial rapist who had just raped a 70 year old woman who died of a heart attack on account.

The fellow who tried to rape me was released on a plea bargain, and I had to leave the place where I lived and find other accommodations away from my home till he was finally sentenced for mail fraud and returned to prison on a parole violation.

I got no help from the county to do this and was homeless for a year in the transition.  The police woman who had worked to convince me to go public with the incidence came to my house and cried.  I never saw her again.

THAT is how the secular world dealt with sexual abuse in the past century and still to a great extent does so now!!

I live in a town that has been a traditional local dumping ground for sexual predators who have been released from prison.  One of them stalked my mother's house for three years after my father died till I took actions that scared him away.  Actions that could have landed me in a jail cell for trying to protect my own mother because our laws essentially make it impossible to PREVENT crime.

I suffered for the past thirty years with chronic panic and anxiety as a result of the trauma of that rape case and NOBODY offered me a thin dime for my troubles or for my treatment.

This case against the Vatican is an indictment against every enlightened nation in the world and SOMEBODY needs to make that case. It is a pathological world which allows that but will stand in unholy judgment of the Church.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Papist on July 02, 2010, 02:56:50 PM
It could be a bit of both: old incidents (as in abuse happening 20 years ago) being reported recently (in the past few years) and nothing coming of it.

There is probably more subtlety at play here but, in the end, without any other evidence, what the Belgian police found is mere speculation, period.  Until there's more information presented to us, I would think that such speculation should be beneath devout Christians.  We should merely be praying for all involved, especially the victims of clerical abuse. 

Thank you for sharing your wisdom. :)
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on July 02, 2010, 08:33:42 PM
New York Times rips Pope, says he could have stopped abuse scandal in 1990s

Go to
http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=6830&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+CatholicWorldNewsFeatureStories+%28Catholic+World+News+%28on+CatholicCulture.org%29%29
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on July 02, 2010, 08:40:11 PM
Seven Days That Shook the Vatican

The past week has been pretty eventful. John Allen gives a listing of some of the more important happenings: the Belgium police raids, the US Supreme Court decision, the European Court of Human Rights, etc.


http://ncronline.org/blogs/seven-days-shook-vatican
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on July 02, 2010, 08:52:12 PM
Without its immunity, can the Vatican survive?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/belief/2010/jul/01/without-immunity-can-vatican-survive

A US supreme court decision could have serious implications for the Holy See, historically protected by its sovereignty

This week the US supreme court issued a decision against the Vatican the importance of which has been compared by one lawyer to the fall of the Berlin Wall.

That may sound like an exaggeration, but the court's decision that the Vatican does not have legal immunity in a claim of sexual abuse by a Catholic priest could have far-reaching ramifications for the church.

The case, John V Doe v Holy See, has been filed by a plaintiff (using a pseudonym) who claims to have been sexually abused on several occasions in the mid-1960s by a Roman Catholic priest called Andrew Ronan . The claim was filed back in 2002, and thanks to the court's decision last week, it can finally proceed against the Vatican – allegedly liable because it acted as the priest's employer.

Jeffrey Lena, the US-based lawyer who is defending the Vatican, has argued that the Holy See should not be regarded as an employer of priests because it does not pay them any salary, or benefits, and does not exercise a day-to-day control on their activity.

But the real issue in the case has been immunity. The Vatican attempted to invoke the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act (FSIA) of 1976, under which foreign states cannot be sued. The supreme court refused to allow this.

The decision last week was, coincidentally, delivered on the same muggy summer's day in which Rome and the Vatican celebrate the feast of Saints Peter and Paul, patrons of Rome.

The religious holiday sees the city shut down and attracts a flood of tourists in St Peter's Basilica, one of the strongest symbols of the terrain power of the Vatican. Many who visit the city learn of the time when, on 20 September 1870, the Pope has lost his temporal power as the Italian army breached the Aurelian Walls at Porta Pia to conquer Rome.

Despite its turbulent history, the political and economic influence of the Vatican has never ended. Avvenire, the Italian bishops' newspaper, predictably describes the supreme court rejection of the immunity claim as "a non-decision". But in reality it is a decision, and a controversial one with the potential to shake the Vatican's foundations and have far-reaching financial and reputational consequences.

In the legal community, the debate on immunity rages on. Most Italian commentators tend to agree that the Vatican is a sovereign entity as it has a marked territory, with Latin as the official language, an independent legal system and its own police body, facts which tend towards giving it the same immunity as states. One of Italy's most famous lawyers, Franzo Grande Stevens, has published an open letter in the newspaper La Stampa saying that the Vatican clearly has an immunity.

But there are others who argue that it is not a member of the United Nations (it has a permanent observer status) and that religious leaders do not usually enjoy an immunity status.

The US supreme court decision paves the way for other suits to be filed against priests accused of paedophilia, which will in turn involve the Vatican. Jeff Anderson, the lawyer representing the claimant, is already understood to have more cases against the Holy See in the pipeline. The combination of potentially thousands of victims in numerous jurisdictions, and the economic incentive for lawyers seek-out cases (particularly in America where so-called "ambulance-chasing" is rife), could result in enough cases to have devastating implications for the church.

The Vatican's response so far has been to deny liability, and last week it said it would prove it can't be held responsible for the priest's actions. But how the law will deal with such strong political, religious and economic powers challenging what is in legal terms an uncertain and evolving area, remains to be seen.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on July 02, 2010, 09:21:08 PM

I suffered for the past thirty years with chronic panic and anxiety as a result of the trauma of that rape case and NOBODY offered me a thin dime for my troubles or for my treatment.


Dear Mary,  I am horrified to read of the experiences you have endured.  I know how long the road is for a woman to recover from rape or attempted rape and find peace again.  Your own experiences raise to the level of great charity your own charitable approach to the priests who have been engaging in child rape.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on July 03, 2010, 01:39:17 AM

I suffered for the past thirty years with chronic panic and anxiety as a result of the trauma of that rape case and NOBODY offered me a thin dime for my troubles or for my treatment.


Dear Mary,  I am horrified to read of the experiences you have endured.  I know how long the road is for a woman to recover from rape or attempted rape and find peace again.  Your own experiences raise to the level of great charity your own charitable approach to the priests who have been engaging in child rape.

That is precisely the point Father.  We are talking about Catholics being abused by Catholics and part of the healing process for us is the purification of memory as part of the process of forgiveness.   St. Symeon the New Theologian calls us not only to complete forgiveness but also to complete love of our enemies.  Calls us to imagine their faces and look upon the with deepest love...the love of Christ.

That public road that I took taught me that the idea of protecting the victim is foreign to secular law.  It should not be foreign to the Church.  It was and that is the real shame but the secular world hasn't a darn shred of moral high ground to stand upon.

To add a bit to my story I will tell you that the attack that I sustained as an adult that came not only from the sexual predator but from the judicial and social systems as well was NOTHING when compared to the memories of a situation that preceded it when I was a child.  As a child I was tampered with by one who was and is beloved to me. 

So I understand many of these youth and children in the Church who were sexually harmed by their pastors.  A priest is most often beloved by his parish community and the children look to him for many things...love and protection being not the least of those expectations.

I did not stop loving the person who took advantage of my youth.  In fact it took me years to grasp the fact that I had done nothing wrong.

So it is a complex thing that we are dealing with in all of this and I can tell you from my automatic reactions to the shrill screaming of the press that they are doing NOTHING of any use or good for the victims.

All of the shrieking is like nails on a chalkboard to me.  I don't want their God-foresaking advocacy because their advocacy is making me sick internally because I am called not only to forgive and forget but to love unconditionally those who seek to do me harm.

There is NOTHING in the secular world that is prepared to help me heal.  Nothing at all.

So I sit by choking on my silence watching people try to destroy the one avenue that I have for healing.

You may eat your pop-corn and watch. 

I have a very different seat in this theatre from the one that you occupy, sometimes seemingly with great delight!!...and in your delight you make me sick...quite literally.

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on July 03, 2010, 07:26:36 PM

I suffered for the past thirty years with chronic panic and anxiety as a result of the trauma of that rape case and NOBODY offered me a thin dime for my troubles or for my treatment.


Dear Mary,  I am horrified to read of the experiences you have endured.  I know how long the road is for a woman to recover from rape or attempted rape and find peace again.  Your own experiences raise to the level of great charity your own charitable approach to the priests who have been engaging in child rape.
I read that the Archdiocese of NY has a comic book out warning children about this problem.
What do you think of this approach? See the book here:
http://www.adnyfiles.org/English.pdf
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on July 03, 2010, 07:43:17 PM


I have a very different seat in this theatre from the one that you occupy, sometimes seemingly with great delight!!...and in your delight you make me sick...quite literally.

I was never sexually abused at school by any priest or brother but I have friends who were.  I have never taken any delight in their suffering, neither in the early years when they spoke about it privately nor in more recent years when they have had to suffer again when it has become public and involved court cases.

If I delight in anything it is the destruction of the culture of secrecy because once that is thoroughly ripped away and demolished the chances of any repetition of institutionalised sexual abuse in parishes and schools becomes far less likely.  Let the tree be pruned as severely as need be so that it may grow back in a healthy state. The suffering of the victim children demands no less.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on July 03, 2010, 10:24:40 PM


I have a very different seat in this theatre from the one that you occupy, sometimes seemingly with great delight!!...and in your delight you make me sick...quite literally.

I was never sexually abused at school by any priest or brother but I have friends who were.  I have never taken any delight in their suffering, neither in the early years when they spoke about it privately nor in more recent years when they have had to suffer again when it has become public and involved court cases.

If I delight in anything it is the destruction of the culture of secrecy because once that is thoroughly ripped away and demolished the chances of any repetition of institutionalised sexual abuse in parishes and schools becomes far less likely.  Let the tree be pruned as severely as need be so that it may grow back in a healthy state. The suffering of the victim children demands no less.

Take no delight in the pruning and you'll be much closer to where I stand.  Understand that it is necessary but never delightful, and you will be better able to truly help and understand the victims in the most Christ-like way, in the way of the ascetic fathers, in the way of faith.  That is what is important.  This is not our home.  The salvation of a soul, be it the victim soul or the predator soul,  is more important that the restoration of good feelings here on earth. 

To not love the abuser as a child of God, and I mean love them as God loves them, unconditionally and without hesitation is to send the worst kind of message to the abused ones.

One of the things that I learned the hard way in life is that my past may explain some of my sinful behaviors but they NEVER excused them.  The only real horror in any of this is that there may have been souls lost in the process.

I am sick of the unctuous yapping of the secular press who has no real concern or understanding of what real healing constitutes.

Also know that there are many accusations that are false.  That is another horror in all of this.

Mary

Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on July 04, 2010, 04:27:53 PM
 ;D  ....Dioceses oust abusers they had pledged to monitor

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100704/ap_on_re/us_rel_priests_and_penance;_ylt=ApoL49x1VqIgFHE8ajAFOU.s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTN1dDZidXZiBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwNzA0L3VzX3JlbF9wcmllc3RzX2FuZF9wZW5hbmNlBGNjb2RlA21vc3Rwb3B1bGFyBGNwb3MDOQRwb3MDNgRwdANob21lX2Nva2UEc2VjA3luX2hlYWRsaW5lX2xpc3QEc2xrA2Rpb2Nlc2Vzb3VzdA--


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EmailPrint..By RACHEL ZOLL, AP Religion Writer Rachel Zoll, Ap Religion Writer – 2 hrs 41 mins ago
NEW YORK – At the peak of the Roman Catholic clergy sex abuse crisis, the discipline plan American bishops adopted prompted dioceses to remove nearly all accused clergy from the priesthood.

Some of the men, however, were considered too old or sick to be kicked out. Instead, bishops barred those clerics from functioning as priests and promised to keep watch over them in supervisory programs that would keep the men far from children.

But interviews with canon lawyers, church child protection officials and experts who advise them found that, eight years after the plan was approved, few of those diocesan programs exist. Church leaders are more likely to oust a cleric from the priesthood than monitor him.

Church leaders viewed the tracking programs as critical to protecting children while still showing mercy for accused clergy who did not have the means to survive on their own.

Most people who said they were abused as children did not come forward until decades after the priests' alleged offenses. The men had never been prosecuted in a civil court, let alone a church tribunal. Vatican officials whose approval was needed to enact the 2002 American plan were especially concerned about clergy due process rights and pressed bishops on the issue.

When the American policy was finalized, an exception had been carved out for the infirm men. They would be ordered to live a life of "prayer and penance" under diocesan watch.

Dioceses quickly realized, though, that they had few resources for the complex task of monitoring abusive priests, and that by caring for the clergy, they might be opening themselves to additional liability. American dioceses have already paid more than $2.7 billion in settlements and other abuse-related costs since 1950, according to surveys by the bishops.

Tossing accused clerics out of the priesthood altogether became the more common approach.

"In many instances, it's a decision based on whether there is the probability of being able to provide the monitoring that's necessary," said Sister Sharon Euart, a canon lawyer who advises bishops and religious orders. If they can't, they may be more likely to begin the process of removing them from the priesthood, she said.

No one knows exactly how many accused clergy have been removed from the priesthood in the last several years, how many are living under church supervision or the specifics of how dioceses are tracking the men under their watch. Annual child safety audits for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops do not include a check of priest-monitoring programs.

A separate 2007 survey for the bishops found only a small number of dioceses operated residences where abusive clergy were supervised, according to Mary Jane Doerr of the bishops' Secretariat for Child and Youth Protection.

Monica Applewhite, a consultant who conducts abuse-prevention training and helps develop policies and monitoring programs for dioceses and religious orders, estimates just a few hundred accused clergy are now under supervision around the country.

"Some dioceses really have laicized everybody," she said.

David Finkelhor, director of the Crimes against Children Research Center at the University of New Hampshire, said it should be no surprise that dioceses are struggling with the issue. The church is tackling a problem that broader society has yet to solve: how to keep sex offenders in check.

The accused priests are an especially difficult case. The men are under no obligation — legal or otherwise — to accept the bishops' terms. Some accused clergy leave the priesthood rather than live under the restrictions.

"There's no other organization that has this large of a community of people against whom there have been accusations where there has never been any adjudication," said Finkelhor, who researches child sex abuse and has advised the Archdiocese of Boston.

The situation in dioceses contrasts starkly to the approach in men's religious orders such as the Jesuits, Dominicans and Friars, who generally live in contained communities and mostly operate independently of bishops.

When the U.S. religious orders adapted the bishops' 2002 discipline plan, the groups added detailed guidelines on supervision of priests barred from public church work.

The religious orders had a built-in advantage. Their clergy already lived together and had taken vows of obedience to their superiors when they joined the orders.

Diocesan priests are more independent. They generally live alone in parish rectories spread across a state, some with parochial grade schools attached or nearby.

Dioceses also have found they do not have the housing, resources or experience to properly supervise accused abusers. Church-run treatment facilities take in some of the clergy, with dioceses covering the costs.

Bishop Blase Cupich of the Diocese of Rapid City, S.D., said he sent a local accused priest to a treatment center in another region where the clergyman could be closely monitored and receive counseling. The rural Rapid City diocese covers an area the size of Pennsylvania.

"We did not have the capacity to monitor" the priest, who has since died, said Cupich, head of the bishops' national child-protection committee. "I know some smaller dioceses have used facilities like that."

Applewhite, a social worker, said most clergy who have been barred from church work but have accepted oversight from a dioceses or religious order would be considered low-risk by criminal justice standards, since most are elderly with offenses dating back decades.

The Archdiocese of Chicago is one of the few dioceses with a fully developed monitoring program. It was created in 2008 after a child safety review that was prompted by a mishandled abuse claim against a parish priest, the Rev. Daniel McCormack. He later pleaded guilty.

Eleven clergy are in the program, generally ranging in age from their 60s to 80s, but are not all housed together, according to Jan Slattery, the archdiocese child protection director.

Each has an individual safety plan based on his history, including mandatory participation in 12-step programs, managed by a counselor with a background in investigations. The archdiocese notifies local law enforcement about the men's presence in their area, while the clerics names are posted on the archdiocese website.

The archdiocese did lose one clergyman from the program after he consistently violated protocols, she said. He opted to leave the priesthood.

"They all understand what the consequences are," Slattery said.

Advocates for victims have questioned whether dioceses should even be in the business of supervising the men, considering bishops' poor track record on reining in predators. The U.S. bishops' toughened discipline plan and the millions of dollars they've spent on abuse prevention in dioceses, has restored some public trust. Yet, the molestation crisis now erupting in European churches continues to undermine confidence in how Catholic leaders deal with abuse.

In the United States, however, the church appears to be the only option, since no other institution would take responsibility for child molesters who have never been convicted.

"Once you throw them out," said Monsignor Stephen Rossetti, former director of the Saint Luke Institute, a Catholic mental health center in Maryland, "you have no leverage."
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on July 04, 2010, 05:28:15 PM
Australian priest jailed for 'sadistic' child abuse   
(http://d.yimg.com/a/p/afp/20100702/capt.photo_1278070620285-1-0.jpg?)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100702/wl_asia_afp/australiacrimesexchildreligionpriest

Fri Jul 2, 7:38 am ET
SYDNEY (AFP) – An Australian Catholic priest was sentenced Friday to almost 20 years in jail for child sex attacks which the judge said were sadistic and went unpunished for many years.

John Sidney Denham, 67, was sentenced to 19 years and 10 months after pleading guilty to a range of charges, including multiple counts of indecent assault against boys aged five to 16.

Judge Helen Syme told a Sydney court that many of Denham's 25 victims were left terrified by the attacks they endured at schools in Sydney and elsewhere in New South Wales between 1968 and 1986.

"The indecent assaults involved multiple children, often significant planning, were frequently sadistic and overall persistent, objectively serious, criminal courses of conduct," Syme said, according to Australian news agency AAP.

"The offender's actions contributed to a culture of fear and depravity, especially at the school, which allowed these disturbing offences to occur and then remain unpunished for years."

The public gallery applauded the sentence, of which Denham must serve a minimum of 13 years and 10 months.

Denham had said in court on Thursday that he was still trying to work out why he had abused the boys.

"All I can say is, I am so sorry," he said. "I see myself as a mere scumbag paedophile who took advantage of a situation and used my power to abuse young people."

But Syme said she was not convinced that the priest, who has been in custody since 2008, was genuinely remorseful.

Outside court, the mother of one of the victims said Denham's actions had "ruined families" and should have been acted on by Catholic Church sooner.

"It's disgusting, the hierarchy in the Catholic Church. I can't believe it," she told reporters. "I can't believe I sent my children to a school like that."

Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on July 04, 2010, 06:55:35 PM
Presuming that at some point these systematic attacks on young people in the Catholic Church will diminish down to a trickle of cases that are caught and dealt with immediately, I'd like to hear from some of the participants in this forum to see if they think that the secular world is better able to deal with these men.  It's not as though they are going to go away.  They will simply go away from the Catholic Church.

Also what do you suppose can be done to aid those who have been falsely accused and who have left the priesthood broken and bowed for no reason?   The number of false accusations is much greater than some might guess, but it is NEVER mentioned in the press.

Mary


Australian priest jailed for 'sadistic' child abuse   
(http://d.yimg.com/a/p/afp/20100702/capt.photo_1278070620285-1-0.jpg?)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100702/wl_asia_afp/australiacrimesexchildreligionpriest

Fri Jul 2, 7:38 am ET
SYDNEY (AFP) – An Australian Catholic priest was sentenced Friday to almost 20 years in jail for child sex attacks which the judge said were sadistic and went unpunished for many years.

John Sidney Denham, 67, was sentenced to 19 years and 10 months after pleading guilty to a range of charges, including multiple counts of indecent assault against boys aged five to 16.

Judge Helen Syme told a Sydney court that many of Denham's 25 victims were left terrified by the attacks they endured at schools in Sydney and elsewhere in New South Wales between 1968 and 1986.

"The indecent assaults involved multiple children, often significant planning, were frequently sadistic and overall persistent, objectively serious, criminal courses of conduct," Syme said, according to Australian news agency AAP.

"The offender's actions contributed to a culture of fear and depravity, especially at the school, which allowed these disturbing offences to occur and then remain unpunished for years."

The public gallery applauded the sentence, of which Denham must serve a minimum of 13 years and 10 months.

Denham had said in court on Thursday that he was still trying to work out why he had abused the boys.

"All I can say is, I am so sorry," he said. "I see myself as a mere scumbag paedophile who took advantage of a situation and used my power to abuse young people."

But Syme said she was not convinced that the priest, who has been in custody since 2008, was genuinely remorseful.

Outside court, the mother of one of the victims said Denham's actions had "ruined families" and should have been acted on by Catholic Church sooner.

"It's disgusting, the hierarchy in the Catholic Church. I can't believe it," she told reporters. "I can't believe I sent my children to a school like that."


Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Tallitot on July 04, 2010, 07:06:38 PM
Yes, I think the secular world is better able to deal with these offenders. The secular world can sentence them to prison where they won't be able to victimize any more small children. The Church can't do that, and olny seeks to cover up thier crimes.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on July 04, 2010, 09:26:43 PM
Yes, I think the secular world is better able to deal with these offenders. The secular world can sentence them to prison where they won't be able to victimize any more small children. The Church can't do that, and olny seeks to cover up thier crimes.
Yes. I would recommend either a life sentence without parole in prison with hard labor, or possibly in some cases,  the death penalty for this type of crime. There are two different concepts - forgiveness and justice. Yes, we can forgive, and God will forgive a repentant sinner,  but in the end justice demands that society protect its children against this type of criminal.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on July 04, 2010, 10:17:50 PM
Yes, I think the secular world is better able to deal with these offenders. The secular world can sentence them to prison where they won't be able to victimize any more small children. The Church can't do that, and olny seeks to cover up thier crimes.

The secular world is also where they let sex offenders loose and they break free of the system and commit both murder and mayhem.  It is a system that brutalizes any victim brave enough to enter the system looking for redress for a sexual offense.  It is the system that attempts to but fails to track the second and third time offender and fails to protect the poor upon whom these sick men prey with impunity.

I think you need to go and read a simple basic set of studies on sex offenders in America...if you can find a reliable one without a road map.

And it is still the case that most attacks go unreported.

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on July 05, 2010, 07:36:52 AM

Take no delight in the pruning and you'll be much closer to where I stand. 

I do not want to stand where you are standing.  It seems too unfeeling, hardhearted, maybe, understandably, self-protective.   I think we may all take a legitimate delight in the fact that the sexual abuse of children and adolescents has been curtailed by these events.   Certainly it gives great hope that it will not happen again, and certainly never on such a scale.   Whether this is achieved by the State or by the Church, what does it matter.  Let us rejoice in this.

Gaudeamus!  Let us rejoice in it as the world rejoiced with the destruction of Auschwitz, with the demolition of the Berlin Wall, with the ending of Communism.

Imagine the reverse scenario - what a horror if the abuse had continued to be covered up.  If it continued in secret and maybe grew and spread, a fungus poisoning the life of the Catholic Church and its priesthood.   
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Tallitot on July 05, 2010, 09:45:00 AM
Yes, I think the secular world is better able to deal with these offenders. The secular world can sentence them to prison where they won't be able to victimize any more small children. The Church can't do that, and olny seeks to cover up thier crimes.

The secular world is also where they let sex offenders loose and they break free of the system and commit both murder and mayhem.  It is a system that brutalizes any victim brave enough to enter the system looking for redress for a sexual offense.  It is the system that attempts to but fails to track the second and third time offender and fails to protect the poor upon whom these sick men prey with impunity.

I think you need to go and read a simple basic set of studies on sex offenders in America...if you can find a reliable one without a road map.

And it is still the case that most attacks go unreported.

Mary
And the church world is where offenders have been moved around so they can brutalize over and over again. At least they are away from children for the time they are in prison.
As far as unreoprted crimes, well a crime has to be reported before it can be prosecuted. If some one doesn't report a crime how are the athorities supposed to know about it?
So what's your answer Mary, just let the church "forgive" them so they can go on thier merry way?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on July 05, 2010, 03:00:39 PM

Take no delight in the pruning and you'll be much closer to where I stand. 

I do not want to stand where you are standing.  It seems too unfeeling, hardhearted, maybe, understandably, self-protective.   I think we may all take a legitimate delight in the fact that the sexual abuse of children and adolescents has been curtailed by these events.   Certainly it gives great hope that it will not happen again, and certainly never on such a scale.   Whether this is achieved by the State or by the Church, what does it matter.  Let us rejoice in this.

Gaudeamus!  Let us rejoice in it as the world rejoiced with the destruction of Auschwitz, with the demolition of the Berlin Wall, with the ending of Communism.

Imagine the reverse scenario - what a horror if the abuse had continued to be covered up.  If it continued in secret and maybe grew and spread, a fungus poisoning the life of the Catholic Church and its priesthood.   

You cannot turn this one around on me, Father.  You don't know enough.  I work with families and individuals daily.  Forgiveness brings healing.  Prayer and contemplation and ascetic practice brings healing.  No one has time to be "delighted" or to shout "Gaudeamus!" when another priest goes down or when more cases of long term abuse are exposed.   Those who look back in anger or look with delight upon the degradation and suffering of another human soul are doomed to anger all their lives.

You call me hard-hearted but you are the one who would rather pay attention to how you feel rather than how others might actually be spiritually and psychologically.  You pay lip service to "caring" but I can see from your responses to me here that all it is is lip service.   I guess that most of the world responds that way.  As followers of Christ we are called to something less...jubilant when faced with the sinfulness of our brothers and sisters.

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on July 05, 2010, 03:00:44 PM
Yes, I think the secular world is better able to deal with these offenders. The secular world can sentence them to prison where they won't be able to victimize any more small children. The Church can't do that, and olny seeks to cover up thier crimes.

The secular world is also where they let sex offenders loose and they break free of the system and commit both murder and mayhem.  It is a system that brutalizes any victim brave enough to enter the system looking for redress for a sexual offense.  It is the system that attempts to but fails to track the second and third time offender and fails to protect the poor upon whom these sick men prey with impunity.

I think you need to go and read a simple basic set of studies on sex offenders in America...if you can find a reliable one without a road map.

And it is still the case that most attacks go unreported.

Mary
And the church world is where offenders have been moved around so they can brutalize over and over again. At least they are away from children for the time they are in prison.
As far as unreoprted crimes, well a crime has to be reported before it can be prosecuted. If some one doesn't report a crime how are the athorities supposed to know about it?
So what's your answer Mary, just let the church "forgive" them so they can go on thier merry way?

"Moving the priest" was a strategy for managing what was thought to be a spiritual illness as much as a psychological one.  It is abundantly clear in the literature of the period that the SECULAR wisdom of the day was 1. that you could not trust the testimony of a child in such cases in the first place, and 2. that therapy would 'cure' a confirmed child molester and 3. that moving the priest out of the original environment would give him a better chance at "starting over."   All of that came out of the best secular wisdom of the mental health profession of the times.

Keeping a veil of secrecy in the Church over such accusations, initially,  was in response to the fact that there have always been false accusations leveled against priests for sexual misconduct.  I know of an number of local cases where priests where falsely accused because women were angry with the priest for one thing and another.  Some get angry because a priest will refuse the "pleasures" of their company.  How do I know?  Because women love to talk about such conquests.  It is not just the male of the species who become sexual predators.

Also you must be aware if you've read any of the case records for many of the priests who molested many many children over a long period of time that some of the cases, indeed, were reported to the police but because there was an inherent distrust of children's testimony, the police very often did nothing at all.  So the presumption that the cases were never reported or the secular world would have done something is purely ignorance of the facts.  Since you have such strong opinions, I expect you are not ignorant of the facts.

I live in an area where sexual crimes are very often still blamed on the victim while the criminal is treated very carefully to preserve his or her rights.  And not all released sex offenders make it on the list of known offenders, and some communities are more prone to having the known predators "dumped" into local housing because the areas are poor and rural.

So if you think the secular world is enlightened then perhaps you actually do need to go on a fact finding mission.  But till you do that and get your facts straight, there's no point in discussing a REAL set of remedial actions and preventative actions.

Mary 



Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on July 05, 2010, 03:00:47 PM
Yes, I think the secular world is better able to deal with these offenders. The secular world can sentence them to prison where they won't be able to victimize any more small children. The Church can't do that, and olny seeks to cover up thier crimes.

The secular world is also where they let sex offenders loose and they break free of the system and commit both murder and mayhem.  It is a system that brutalizes any victim brave enough to enter the system looking for redress for a sexual offense.  It is the system that attempts to but fails to track the second and third time offender and fails to protect the poor upon whom these sick men prey with impunity.

I think you need to go and read a simple basic set of studies on sex offenders in America...if you can find a reliable one without a road map.

And it is still the case that most attacks go unreported.

Mary
And the church world is where offenders have been moved around so they can brutalize over and over again. At least they are away from children for the time they are in prison.
As far as unreoprted crimes, well a crime has to be reported before it can be prosecuted. If some one doesn't report a crime how are the athorities supposed to know about it?
So what's your answer Mary, just let the church "forgive" them so they can go on thier merry way?

Some facts:

http://blackbiretta.blogspot.com/2010/07/new-yorks-times-and-all-news-thats.html
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: rakovsky on July 05, 2010, 07:07:26 PM
I just don't understan this entire thread. I am not sure what any of it has to do with a celibate priesthood. Rather than throw out 1500 years of spiritual practices in the west, why not just be sure to select healthy men for the priesthood? Seems to make a great deal more sense.

Sure, you could encourage men to follow the spiritual practice of celibacy or monasticism, but you can throw it out as a forced requirement, since you can have a Spiritual Father and Mother for your church family.

The practice itself should not be a forced requirement simply because it is a nice custom, any more than requiring women to wear veils should be. I see more sense in requiring women to wear veils since it says it in the New Testament, while we know that marriages existed among Wetsern church leaders in the early church. So I disagree with it as a forced requirement. I mean it's your church you can do what you want. It just seems to me that Orthodox/ Eastern Catholic model is better for several reasons.

We are Catholic, not Eastern Orthodox. We don't need to follow the spiritual practices of your church.

Correct. However, it seems that if the absolute celibacy requirement came about in 500 AD, then an attempt to get back to the authentic Christianity of the early church would suggest allowing married priests. Existence of married Eastern Catholic clergy should allow that this is a doctrinal possibility, and if abuse rates are higher among rites with forced celibacy, the abuse seems to be additional persuasion, in addition to general doctrinal reasons.

To use another possible analogy, the use of indulgences might have been debated in medieval Catholicism, but the abuse of the practice seems to suggest against it at all.

Likewise, what many Eastern Catholics see as the Pope's abuse of discretion in dealing with eastern Catholicism in medieval times seems to me to suggest that the Pope lacks a special ability to be infallible on matters of faith.

The issues: indulgences, forced celibacy, Papal infallibility might be argued philosophically either way, but some abuses in practice seem to mitigate against them further.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Tallitot on July 05, 2010, 07:19:21 PM
Yes, I think the secular world is better able to deal with these offenders. The secular world can sentence them to prison where they won't be able to victimize any more small children. The Church can't do that, and olny seeks to cover up thier crimes.

The secular world is also where they let sex offenders loose and they break free of the system and commit both murder and mayhem.  It is a system that brutalizes any victim brave enough to enter the system looking for redress for a sexual offense.  It is the system that attempts to but fails to track the second and third time offender and fails to protect the poor upon whom these sick men prey with impunity.

I think you need to go and read a simple basic set of studies on sex offenders in America...if you can find a reliable one without a road map.

And it is still the case that most attacks go unreported.

Mary
And the church world is where offenders have been moved around so they can brutalize over and over again. At least they are away from children for the time they are in prison.
As far as unreoprted crimes, well a crime has to be reported before it can be prosecuted. If some one doesn't report a crime how are the athorities supposed to know about it?
So what's your answer Mary, just let the church "forgive" them so they can go on thier merry way?

Some facts:

http://blackbiretta.blogspot.com/2010/07/new-yorks-times-and-all-news-thats.html
Thanks for the link to a rather tedious missive to the greater glory of Joseph Ratzinger. Now, how does this explain why priests who have molested children not be faced with criminal prosecution in civil courts or that church officials who transfered known abusers not bew held liable?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: rakovsky on July 05, 2010, 09:32:24 PM
I live in an area where sexual crimes are very often still blamed on the victim while the criminal is treated very carefully to preserve his or her rights.  And not all released sex offenders make it on the list of known offenders, and some communities are more prone to having the known predators "dumped" into local housing because the areas are poor and rural.

So if you think the secular world is enlightened then perhaps you actually do need to go on a fact finding mission.  But till you do that and get your facts straight, there's no point in discussing a REAL set of remedial actions and preventative actions.

Right. That is why the church is supposed to be a place of protection, POKROV, for kids from bad things in the world.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on July 05, 2010, 09:53:51 PM
Yes, I think the secular world is better able to deal with these offenders. The secular world can sentence them to prison where they won't be able to victimize any more small children. The Church can't do that, and olny seeks to cover up thier crimes.

The secular world is also where they let sex offenders loose and they break free of the system and commit both murder and mayhem.  It is a system that brutalizes any victim brave enough to enter the system looking for redress for a sexual offense.  It is the system that attempts to but fails to track the second and third time offender and fails to protect the poor upon whom these sick men prey with impunity.

I think you need to go and read a simple basic set of studies on sex offenders in America...if you can find a reliable one without a road map.

And it is still the case that most attacks go unreported.

Mary
And the church world is where offenders have been moved around so they can brutalize over and over again. At least they are away from children for the time they are in prison.
As far as unreoprted crimes, well a crime has to be reported before it can be prosecuted. If some one doesn't report a crime how are the athorities supposed to know about it?
So what's your answer Mary, just let the church "forgive" them so they can go on thier merry way?

Some facts:

http://blackbiretta.blogspot.com/2010/07/new-yorks-times-and-all-news-thats.html
Thanks for the link to a rather tedious missive to the greater glory of Joseph Ratzinger. Now, how does this explain why priests who have molested children not be faced with criminal prosecution in civil courts or that church officials who transfered known abusers not bew held liable?

You already have answers to why priests were transferred in years gone by.

No one is saying that they should not be faced with criminal prosecution when due process determines there is sufficient evidence to indict them in a court of civil law.

Mary

Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on July 05, 2010, 09:53:52 PM
I live in an area where sexual crimes are very often still blamed on the victim while the criminal is treated very carefully to preserve his or her rights.  And not all released sex offenders make it on the list of known offenders, and some communities are more prone to having the known predators "dumped" into local housing because the areas are poor and rural.

So if you think the secular world is enlightened then perhaps you actually do need to go on a fact finding mission.  But till you do that and get your facts straight, there's no point in discussing a REAL set of remedial actions and preventative actions.

Right. That is why the church is supposed to be a place of protection, POKROV, for kids from bad things in the world.

Yes.  And what does NOT get said is that even with the offenses of the past 60 years or more, the Church is still safer than the secular world and it is the ONLY place where real psychological and spiritual healing can occur.

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on July 06, 2010, 12:46:36 AM


You cannot turn this one around on me, Father.  You don't know enough.  I work with families and individuals daily. 


Presumptuous , Mary.

Form 1989 to 2000 I worked intensively with the homeless in the central city, mainly with young people, streetkids who were solvent abusers, and with older homeless people, alcoholics.  For four years I ran a nine-bedroomed home for streetkids-solvent abusers.  The house was kindly lent to me by a Russian woman whose father had used it for Russian DPs.   In nearly all cases there was some history of sexual abuse.   
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on July 06, 2010, 03:28:42 AM
When Judges Impersonate Theologians

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1343973?eng=y

In Belgium they searched the tombs of the bishops, in the United States they're summoning the pope for trial. A transformation of legal culture and court practice is on the horizon. The analysis of Professor Pietro De Marco

by Sandro Magister

Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on July 06, 2010, 03:53:48 AM

... the Church is still safer than the secular world and it is the ONLY place where real psychological and spiritual healing can occur.

Mary

"the Church is .... the ONLY place where real psychological and spiritual healing can occur."

I see this as a most alarming statement and one which is self-evidentially wrong.  Even if Mary is restricting it to Roman Catholics, we would need to ask if the Catholics who do not resort to their Church for psychological and spiritual healing are unable to find such healing?  Are they outside the possibility of real healing?

And we surely cannot believe that victims of sexual abuse who are not members of the Catholic Church, Methodists, Buddhists, Muslims, atheists,... are unable to find "real psychological and spiritual healing."  Are they really beyond the possibility of real healing which, according to Mary, can be found ONLY in her Church?

I would like to ask Mary directly..... Mary, in your real life work with abused women and children have you truly found that those who do not seek healing in the Roman Catholic Church have been unable to receive "real psychological and spiritual healing"?   
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on July 06, 2010, 10:53:42 AM

... the Church is still safer than the secular world and it is the ONLY place where real psychological and spiritual healing can occur.

Mary

"the Church is .... the ONLY place where real psychological and spiritual healing can occur."

I see this as a most alarming statement and one which is self-evidentially wrong.  Even if Mary is restricting it to Roman Catholics, we would need to ask if the Catholics who do not resort to their Church for psychological and spiritual healing are unable to find such healing?  Are they outside the possibility of real healing?

And we surely cannot believe that victims of sexual abuse who are not members of the Catholic Church, Methodists, Buddhists, Muslims, atheists,... are unable to find "real psychological and spiritual healing."  Are they really beyond the possibility of real healing which, according to Mary, can be found ONLY in her Church?

I would like to ask Mary directly..... Mary, in your real life work with abused women and children have you truly found that those who do not seek healing in the Roman Catholic Church have been unable to receive "real psychological and spiritual healing"?   


Yes.  Secular therapy is not sufficient to bring wounded souls to full freedom from the ghosts of their past, without the use of mind altering drugs that have a limited efficacy and sometimes turn on the patient in which case they can end up on much worse shape.  Sometimes the triggers for neurotic or psychotic episodes over-ride the effects of both talk therapy or pharmaceuticals.

The ascetic life in Christ seems to be the best medicine for those who have suffered trauma, some kinds of addictions, exposure to demonic influences, etc.    What I am try to indicate is that for believing Catholics who have not developed some kind of deep-rooted hate for the Church, the Church is a far better hospital for them than the secular mental health system.  Very often those who approach me are referred to me precisely because they have tried all other avenues and gained no real relief, primarily because the idea of purification of the memory, in Christian terms, is alien to our secular system of mental health.  If the person has a livid hatred of the Catholic Church, I have developed relationships with Orthodox sources over the years that have come through to help some of these people do in their lives what secular therapy could not help them to do.

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: rakovsky on July 06, 2010, 01:34:58 PM
The church considers that it has the fullness of the faith, so perhaps there are some spiritual things one church might understand better than anyone else. Further, public schools in strong Calvinist areas of the US South continue to beat students. Meanwhile, Catholic dioceses all across America have abolished corporal punishment.



On the flip side: It seems to me that just as a medical doctor might clear up a throat sickness as sufficiently as Catholicism's laying-on-of-candles-to-the-throat-ritual, it's possible that someone experienced in dealing with psychological addictions might be just as able to deal with this. Perhaps there is a "good samaritan" situation, where a nonChristian can help someone heal psychologically.

I could add that someone could launch a secular campaign to provide shelters for abused kids and get out the message that abuse is wrong. The church has the same message, but it's possible that the parishes in a certain area don't provide these services, or give as strong advice. I could imagine in the 19th century, the advice from some Catholic parishes to abused kids might be just to pray about it, forgive, don't resist.

A friend from my OCA parish in a public school remembers one day a Catholic nun came as a substitute. She hit everyone on the hand with a ruler, some people harder than others, for what they had not done "yet."


So I am not sure we can have blind faith that the parishes in your area are the best place to deal with certain issues, although the general principles and teachings of Christianity and the Church are very powerful for such healing.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on July 06, 2010, 11:32:56 PM


You cannot turn this one around on me, Father.  You don't know enough.  I work with families and individuals daily. 


Presumptuous , Mary.

Form 1989 to 2000 I worked intensively with the homeless in the central city, mainly with young people, streetkids who were solvent abusers, and with older homeless people, alcoholics.  For four years I ran a nine-bedroomed home for streetkids-solvent abusers.  The house was kindly lent to me by a Russian woman whose father had used it for Russian DPs.   In nearly all cases there was some history of sexual abuse.   

Yes.  I am aware of this.  That is why I find your reactions to me to be so strange.

M.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on July 07, 2010, 12:11:17 AM
Vatican to issue long-awaited sex abuse document

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100706/ap_on_re_eu/eu_vatican_church_abuse;_ylt=Al9VEwJmI6NCC1ssB_z5tA5vaA8F;_ylu=X3oDMTJvdWlvczVsBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwNzA2L2V1X3ZhdGljYW5fY2h1cmNoX2FidXNlBGNwb3MDMgRwb3MDNQRzZWMDeW5fdG9wX3N0b3J5BHNsawN2YXRpY2FudG9pc3M-

(http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20100630/capt.b96378fd34c84658854490c51e7f17dc-b96378fd34c84658854490c51e7f17dc-0.jpg?)

           Buzz up!9 votes Share
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EmailPrint.. AP – Pope Benedict XVI, flanked by his secretary Monsignor Georg Gaenswein, delivers his blessing during a …
. Slideshow:Church Abuse Allegations .
By NICOLE WINFIELD, Associated Press Writer Nicole Winfield, Associated Press Writer – Tue Jul 6, 5:46 pm ET
VATICAN CITY – Pope Benedict XVI will soon issue a document outlining the church's procedures for handling clerical sex abuse cases that will gather the norms now in use and make them permanent and legally binding, a Vatican official and canon lawyer said Tuesday.

The "instruction" from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has been in the works for some time. But its impending publication has taken on new relevance amid the abuse scandal that has roiled the Vatican for months, with hundreds of new cases coming to light of priests who raped and sodomized children, bishops who covered up for them and Vatican officials who turned a blind eye.

The norms concern the canonical procedures for dealing with abusive priests, with penalties as severe as being dismissed from the clerical state. Separately, the Vatican issued informal guidelines earlier this year saying bishops should follow civil reporting laws in terms of reporting abuse to police.

It's unclear whether the new set of norms will include any reference to civil reporting requirements. Since such requirements vary from country to country, it would be difficult to make reference to them in a document that is canonically binding on the church around the globe, noted the Rev. Davide Cito, a canon lawyer and consultant at the Congregation.

The norms now in place have been modified and updated from a 2001 Vatican document and set of procedures issued by Pope John Paul II outlining how the church should handle the abuse of minors by priests.

The 2001 documents require bishops to report credible accusations of abusive priests to the Congregation, which then decides how to proceed, including through a full canonical trial. In 2003 — a year after the U.S. abuse scandal exploded — the norms were amended to speed up administrative penalties against abusive clerics where the evidence them is overwhelming, among other things.

But those 2003 modifications were ad hoc and temporary in nature and had to be reconfirmed, for example, by Benedict after John Paul died in 2005. By gathering them together and including them now in an official, binding document, they become permanent church law.

As a result, the new instruction is expected to contain little that goes beyond what is currently the practice of the Congregation, Cito said. The instruction, for example, is expected to formally extend the 10-year statute of limitations for abuse cases that was imposed for the first time in the 2001 procedures. But those limits have been waived on a case-by-case basis already since 2002 since the 10-year limit was deemed too short.

In addition, downloading child pornography from the Internet is expected to be included as a "grave" canonical crime for the first time in a Vatican instruction. That said, the Congregation's sex crimes prosecutor, Monsignor Charles Scicluna, has written that the Congregation for several years has considered it such in practice.

A Vatican official declined to give a date for the instruction's publication, but said it was expected in the near future. Cito said he understood the document had already been signed by Benedict, who on Wednesday moves to the papal summer residence at Castel Gandolfo for the rest of the summer.

Amid the current scandal, the 2001 norms have been held up by Vatican officials as evidence of Benedict's get-tough attitude to pedophile priests, since he was prefect of the Congregation at the time and signed a letter accompanying the documents to bishops around the world. The former Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, though, was known to be far more concerned with matters of faith than technical canonical procedures.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on July 08, 2010, 08:20:01 PM
Suit brought against McCormack, priest alleges molestation


http://www.suntimes.com/news/24-7/2479574,catholic-priests-molest-lawsuit-070810.article
July 8, 2010

BY LISA DONOVAN Staff Reporter
A man who alleges he was molested repeatedly in grade school and high school by defrocked Roman Catholic priest and convicted sexual abuser Daniel McCormack filed a lawsuit Thursday against the Archdiocese of Chicago.

The man — listed only as James C. Doe — alleges in the lawsuit filed Thursday in Cook County Circuit Court that the abuse began in 2000 when he was in 7th grade at Our Lady of the West Side elementary school, which sits on the St. Agatha parish campus and continued for roughly the next six years.

“Through his junior or senior year in high school (2004-2006), McCormack maintained a sexually abusive relationship with Doe,” according to the lawsuit.

The plaintiff not only attended school but also played basketball at Our Lady of the West Side, where McCormack taught and coached.

McCormack, 41, received a five-year prison term after pleading guilty in 2007 to charges he fondled five boys at the parish and school. It was unclear from court papers whether the boy in this case was among the five victims in the criminal case. McCormack remains behind bars today.

The suit alleges the archdiocese and Cardinal Francis George “breached the duties of reasonable care” by allowing McCormack to become a priest and then moving him to various parishes, even as sex abuse allegations dogged him in the seminary and priesthood, according to the lawsuit.

The most damning allegation in the suit is that McCormack continued to abuse the boy even after police questioned McCormack about a sex abuse case in 2005 and his church superiors ordered him not to have contact with minors.

The suit seeks at least $50,000 in damages.

A spokeswoman said the archdiocese doesn’t comment on pending litigation.

In 2008, the Archdiocese of Chicago paid $1.2 million and $2.8 million apiece to settle lawsuits brought by the family of two brothers molested by McCormack.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on July 08, 2010, 08:28:49 PM
Archbishop Chaput: Pope is not CEO and bishops are not his employees
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/archbishop-chaput-pope-is-not-ceo-and-bishops-are-not-his-employees/


(http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/images/Chaput.jpg)



Denver, Colo., May 26, 2010 / 03:00 pm (CNA).- In the midst of lawsuits attempting the implicate the Vatican for the failure of individual bishops to properly handle clerical sex abuse cases, Archbishop Charles Chaput of Denver stated the the Pope “is not a global CEO” to be held liable, given that bishops are not “his agents or employees.” Instead, he wrote, the Church is “much closer to a confederation of families than to a modern corporation.”

The Denver prelate made his remarks in a First Things article on Wednesday. He began by addressing some of the common misconceptions about Church authority, relating how some Catholics who live in other dioceses have assumed that he has the authority solve a problem in their area. Those parishioners, he said, have even gotten “annoyed” with him for not becoming involved with issues outside his jurisdiction.

“I have neither the authority nor the bad sense to meddle in the life of a sister local Church,” he said, adding that he won't “intrude on the ministry of a brother bishop,” who is “the chief teaching and governing authority in his own local Church.”

Turning to the Pope, Archbishop Chaput wrote, “the bishop of Rome is uniquely different.” “He is first among brothers; yet he also has real authority as pastor of the whole Church.”

“But he is not a global CEO, and Catholic bishops are not – and never have been – his agents or 'employees,'” the  prelate stressed. “It's useful to remember this today as lawyers try ingeniously to draw the Vatican into America's on-going sex-abuse saga.”

Archbishop Chaput then referred to the case where attorney William McMurry is attempting to lodge a federal lawsuit against the Vatican in Louisville, Kentucky.

McMurry is seeking class-action status for a case involving three men who claim they were abused by priests decades ago. He also represented 243 sex abuse victims who settled with the Archdiocese of Louisville in 2003 for $25.3 million.

“In O'Bryan vs. the Holy See, currently being heard in U.S. district court in Kentucky,” the archbishop wrote, “plaintiffs' attorneys seek to depose Vatican officials – including potentially the Pope himself – to determine what they knew and allegedly ignored or covered up about the handling of clergy sex-abuse cases by American bishops.” 

“The plaintiffs' legal argument hinges on the premise that bishops are, in effect, Roman-controlled employees or officials,” he added. “But that argument is not merely false in practice; it is also revolutionary in its consequences. In effect, it seeks to redefine the nature of the Church in a manner favorable to plaintiffs' attorneys, but alien to her actual structure and identity.”

“To put it another way,” Archbishop Chaput said, “plaintiffs' attorneys want a federal court to tell the Church who she really is, whether she agrees or not, and then to penalize her for being what she isn't.”

“Every bishop in the United States has a filial love for the Holy Father and a fraternal respect for his brother bishops,” he continued. “But these family-like words – filial, fraternal, brother – are not mere window-dressing. They go to the heart of how the Catholic community understands and organizes itself, and more importantly, how the Church actually conducts herself, guided by her own theology and canon law.”

“The Church is much closer to a confederation of families than to a modern corporation,” the Denver  archbishop explained. “And this has real, everyday results. In practice, the influence of the Holy See on the daily life of the Archdiocese of Denver is strong in matters of faith and morals.” 

“But in the operational decisions of our local Church, the Holy See’s influence is remote. In 22 years as a bishop, my problems have never included a controlling or intrusive Vatican.” 

“We live in ironic times,” Archbishop Chaput remarked. “Critics of the Catholic Church in the 19th century conjured up a monolithic Roman Church to frighten America's Protestant masses. Today – when that Roman strawman is even less believable – they rather like the idea of the Catholic Church as a Vatican-controlled monolith, no matter how far that myth is from real Church life, the better to sue her.”
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on July 08, 2010, 08:36:02 PM
Pope targets priests who abuse mentally impaired


http://www.suntimes.com/news/world/2477904,pope-targets-mentally-impaired-abuse-070810.article
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on July 08, 2010, 09:34:21 PM
Pope targets priests who abuse mentally impaired


http://www.suntimes.com/news/world/2477904,pope-targets-mentally-impaired-abuse-070810.article

Dear Stashko,

Thank you for these most recent articles.  They are of great interest to me and it is helpful to have you tracking them!

One of the things I'd like you to tuck away in the back of your mind as you read and watch things unfolding, is that all along throughout the 20th century, there have been priests jailed for sexual crimes.  All matters of public record.  It was not at all a totally blank slate till things broke open at the turn of the century.

So my question all along has been, why some?, and not others?  Is there a pattern within specific dioceses?....of course there have been patterns, and for good reason.  Attempts to shine light on these things MUST be excruciating mindful of addressing only that which is real and demonstrable, regardless of what the rest of the secular world decides they want to do while chasing down the almighty dollar....

And there must be some strong mechanism established in the new order of doing things that guards against false witness against a good man and priest.  That must be given most serious attention.

M.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on July 10, 2010, 09:51:17 PM
"The Fall of the Belgian Church"

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/4471

This is so awful that I just don't know what comments to make.  Read it for yourselves please

The article is also on Alexandra Colen's own website
http://www.alexandracolen.nu/
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: rakovsky on July 11, 2010, 10:51:05 PM
"The Fall of the Belgian Church"

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/4471

This is so awful that I just don't know what comments to make.  Read it for yourselves please
Quote
The sympathy for pedophile attitudes and arguments among the Belgian bishops during this period was no secret, especially since 1997 when the fierce controversy about the catechism textbook Roeach made the headlines. The editors of Roeach were Prof. Jef Bulckens of the Catholic University of Leuven and Prof. Frans Lefevre of the Seminary of Bruges. This “catechism textbook” was used in the catechism lessons in the catholic schools, until one day I discovered it among the schoolbooks of my eldest daughter, then 13 years old. The textbook contained a drawing which showed a naked baby girl saying: “Stroking my XXXXXX makes me feel groovy,” “I like to take my knickers off with friends,” “I want to be in the room when mum and dad XXXXXX.” The drawing also shows a naked little boy and girl that are “playing doctor” and the little boy says: “Look, my XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.”

There were schools where children... had to watch videos showing techniques of XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

On 18 March 1998 a group of two hundred parents went to the Papal Nuncio, the ambassador of the Vatican, in Brussels. But the Nuncio, who was a friend of Danneels, also refused to meet us. He had, however, alerted the police, who had several water cannons at the ready just around the corner.

WHAT????????????????????????????????????????
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: PeterTheAleut on July 11, 2010, 11:00:37 PM
"The Fall of the Belgian Church"

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/4471

This is so awful that I just don't know what comments to make.  Read it for yourselves please

The article is also on Alexandra Colen's own website
http://www.alexandracolen.nu/
Who in the world is Alexandra Colen? ???
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: rakovsky on July 11, 2010, 11:04:55 PM
Quote
I told Cardinal Danneels that, although I was a member of Parliament for the Flemish-secessionist party Vlaams Blok, I was addressing him as a Catholic parent

Could be a fringe thing, I don't know. Still, if her allegations are true...
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on July 12, 2010, 04:27:03 AM
Quote
I told Cardinal Danneels that, although I was a member of Parliament for the Flemish-secessionist party Vlaams Blok, I was addressing him as a Catholic parent

Could be a fringe thing, I don't know. Still, if her allegations are true...
It might explain why the Belgian police had to act against the Catholic Church in Belgium as it did. I mean, if there are pedophiles in the Catholic Belgian clergy who are promoting pedophilia by requiring children to study pornographic and perverted catechisms, then why shouldn't the police investigate and bring criminal charges? However, I would like to see some confirmation of these allegations. How widespread was the use of this perverted catechism in the Belgian Catholic Church?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on July 15, 2010, 10:03:33 AM
Vatican issues new sex abuse norms after crisis
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100715/ap_on_re_eu/eu_vatican_church_abuse

(http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20100711/capt.589e313f24314878b50f837001ea1238-589e313f24314878b50f837001ea1238-0.jpg?)

By NICOLE WINFIELD, Associated Press Writer Nicole Winfield, Associated Press Writer – 2 hrs 31 mins ago
VATICAN CITY – The Vatican issued a new set of norms Thursday to respond to the worldwide clerical abuse scandal, cracking down on priests who rape and molest minors and the mentally disabled.

The norms extend from 10 to 20 years the statute of limitations on priestly abuse and also codify for the first time that possessing or distributing child pornography is a canonical crime.

But the document made no mention of the need for bishops to report abuse to police and doesn't include any "one-strike and you're out" policy as demanded by some victims' groups.

The document also listed the attempted ordination of a woman as a "grave crime" to be handled by the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, just as sex abuse is. Critics have complained that including both in the same document implied equating them.

The congregation's norms marked the first major document to be issued by the Vatican since the clerical abuse scandal erupted earlier this year with hundreds of new cases coming to light of priests who molested children, bishops who covered up for them and Vatican officials who turned a blind eye for decades.

The church's internal justice system for dealing with abuse allegations came under attack because of claims by victims that their accusations were long ignored by bishops more concerned about protecting the church and by the congregation, which was headed by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger from 1981 until he was elected pope in 2005.

The bulk of the new document merely codified the ad hoc norms for dealing canonically with pedophile priests that have been in use since the first major overhaul of norms came in 2001 and subsequent updates in 2002 and 2003, making them permanent and legally binding.

"That is a step forward because the norm of law is binding and is certain," said Monsignor Charles Scicluna, the Vatican's sex crimes prosecutor.

But Barbara Dorris of the Survivors' Network for Those Abused by Priests, a leading group representing victims of clerical sex abuse, said the new guidelines "can be summed up in three words: missing the boat.

"They deal with one small procedure at the very tail end of the problem: defrocking pedophile priests," she said.

"Relatively few kids have actually been sexually assaulted because predator priests weren't defrocked quickly enough," she said. "Hundreds of thousands of kids, however, have been sexually violated (by) many other more damaging and reckless moves by bishops and other church staff."

The 10-year statute of limitations, for example, has routinely been extended on a case by case basis and will continue to be even beyond the new 20-year limit set forth in the document, the text said. Acquiring, selling or possessing child pornography has also been considered a grave canonical crime for several years, Scicluna has said.

New elements in the text, as first reported last week by The Associated Press, include treating priests who sexually abuse an adult who "habitually lacks the use of reason" with the same set of sanctions as those who abuse minors. Punishments can include being dismissed from the clerical state.

The Vatican in 2007 issued a decree saying the attempted ordination of women would result in automatic excommunication for the woman and the priest who tries to ordain her. That is repeated in the new document, adding that the priest can also be punished by being dismissed from the clerical state.

At a briefing Thursday, Scicluna said that including the two canonical crimes, sex abuse and ordination of women, in the same document was not equating them but was done to just codify the most serious canonical crimes against sacraments and morals that the congregation deals with.

For example, in addition to sex abuse, the document also includes crimes against the sacraments including desecrating the Eucharist, violating the seal of the confessional and for the first time, apostasy, heresy and schism. Attempting to ordain a woman violates the sacrament of holy orders and was therefore included, Scicluna said.

"They are grave, but on different levels," he said.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on July 15, 2010, 04:59:33 PM




Vatican revises its rules on clerical sex abuse
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100715/ap_on_re_eu/eu_vatican_church_abuse


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EmailPrint.. AP – Monsignor Charles Scicluna, the Vatican's sex crimes prosecutor, left, and Vatican spokesman Rev. Federico …
. Slideshow:Church Abuse Allegations .
By NICOLE WINFIELD, Associated Press Writer Nicole Winfield, Associated Press Writer – 29 mins ago
VATICAN CITY – The Vatican revised its in-house rules to deal with clerical sex abuse cases Thursday, targeting priests who molest the mentally disabled as well as children and doubling the statute of limitations for such crimes.

Abuse victims said the rules are little more than administrative housekeeping since they made few substantive changes to current practice, and what is needed are bold new rules to punish bishops who shield pedophiles.

Women's ordination groups criticized the new rules because they included the attempted ordination of women as a "grave crime" subject to the same set of procedures and punishments meted out for sex abuse.

The rules, which cover the canonical procedures and penalties for the most serious sacramental and moral crimes, were issued as the Vatican confronts one of the worst scandals in recent history: revelations of hundreds of new cases of priests who raped and sodomized children, bishops who covered up for them, and Vatican officials who stood by passively for decades.

In 2003, the Vatican streamlined its 2001 procedures for disciplining abusive priests, allowing them to be defrocked without a lengthy canonical trial if the evidence against them was overwhelming. The rules issued Thursday codified those procedures into church law.

"That is a step forward, because the norm of law is binding and is certain," Monsignor Charles Scicluna, the Vatican's sex crimes prosecutor, told reporters. But he acknowledged that the document was just a set of rules whose application was critical.

"It does not solve all the problems," Scicluna said. "It is a very important instrument, but it is the way you use the instrument that is going to have the real effect."

While the bulk of the document codifies existing practice, some new elements were introduced: priests who possess or distribute child pornography and those who sexually abuse developmentally disabled adults will be subject to the same procedures and punishments as priests who molest minors.

The new rules extend the statute of limitations for handling of priestly abuse cases from 10 years to 20 years after the victim's 18th birthday, and the statute of limitations can be extended beyond that on a case-by-case basis. Such extensions have been routine for years but now the waivers are codified.

But the new rules make no mention of the need for bishops to report clerical sex abuse to police, provide no canonical sanctions for bishops who cover up for abusers, and do not include any "zero tolerance" policy for pedophile priests as demanded by some victims.

"The first thing the church should be doing is reporting crimes to civil authorities," said Andrew Madden, a former Dublin altar boy who filed the first public abuse lawsuit against the church in Ireland in 1995.

"That's far, far more important than deciding whether a criminal priest should be defrocked or not," he told The Associated Press in Dublin. "The church's internal rules are no more important than the rules of your local golf club."

Scicluna defended the absence of any mention of the need to report abuse to police, saying all Christians were required to obey civil laws that would already demand sex crimes be reported.

The Vatican noted that bishops were reminded of this duty in a set of informal guidelines issued earlier this year and that its Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which handles sex crime allegations, was working with bishops' conferences around the world to develop more "rigorous, coherent and effective" guidelines.

"If civil law requires you report, you must obey civil law," Scicluna said. But "it's not for canonical legislation to get itself involved with civil law."

Victims' groups and others have accused the church's internal justice system of failing to deal credibly with abuse allegations, allowing bishops to ignore complaints in order to protect the church, and keeping its canonical trials so secretive that victims believed they couldn't go to police.

Barbara Dorris, of Survivors' Network for Those Abused by Priests, said the new guidelines "can be summed up in three words: missing the boat."

"They deal with one small procedure at the very tail end of the problem: defrocking pedophile priests," she said. "Hundreds of thousands of kids, however, have been sexually violated (by) many other more damaging and reckless moves by bishops and other church staff."

Pope Benedict XVI should have taken the opportunity to threaten bishops who shield abusers and tell bishops to stop lobbying legislatures against extending the statute of limitations on abuse cases, said Anne Barrett Doyle of BishopAccountability.org, which compiles data on clerical abuse.

"Of course it's right that the viewing of child pornography be recognized as a grave crime inside the church," she said in a statement. "But practically speaking, no child will be safer because a secret church tribunal finds a priest guilty of viewing pornography."

But Bishop Blase Cupich, head of the U.S. bishops' child protection committee, said the new instruction brings a clarity to the process that will allow church leaders around the world and Vatican officials to resolve abuse claims more quickly. He said he was encouraged that lay people with expertise in church law can serve on church tribunals for accused priests.

Cupich rejected complaints that the instruction didn't go far enough. By including offenses involving child pornography and victimizing mentally impaired adults, the new document will help dioceses worldwide confront abusers, he said.

"It'll send a very clear message to the bishops around the world that this is the way it's going to be done," Cupich said. "It makes it clear and also provides more resources for the quick adjudication of these cases."

But with so few real changes, Scicluna said he didn't expect a flood of cases to come forward, as happened in 2003-04 after the abuse scandal exploded in the United States and some 80 percent of the 3,000 cases handled by the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith were opened.

The congregation was headed by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger from 1981 until he was elected pope in 2005. Its procedures call for canonical trials or administrative punishments which can result in a priest being dismissed from the clerical state.

Recent efforts by civic authorities to investigate abuse allegations have again cast a spotlight on the Vatican's in-house penalties for acts that are criminally prosecutable in most of the world: Just last month, police raided the Brussels archbishop's residence and seized boxes of documents as part of an investigation into clerical sex abuse amid concerns the Belgian church was protecting pedophiles.

The rules list the attempted ordination of a woman as a "grave crime" to be handled according to the same procedures as sex abuse — despite arguments that grouping the two in the same document would imply equating them.

"The idea that women seeking to spread the message of God somehow defiles the Eucharist reveals an antiquated, backward church that still views women as unclean and unholy," said Erin Saiz Hanna, executive director of the Women's Ordination Conference, a U.S.-based organization that works to ordain women as priests, deacons and bishops.

Pope Benedict has said the question of ordaining women — often raised as an antidote to the priest shortage and to bring about more gender equality — is not up for discussion.

The Vatican in 2007 issued a decree saying the attempted ordination of women would result in automatic excommunication for the woman and the priest trying to ordain her. That is repeated in the new document, adding that the priest can also be defrocked — a permanent punishment, whereas an excommunication can be lifted if the person expresses sorrow for what he or she did.

Scicluna defended the inclusion of both sex abuse and ordination of women in the same document as a way of codifying two of the most serious canonical crimes against sacraments and morals that the congregation deals with. Also included are other sacramental crimes, including desecrating the Eucharist and — for the first time — heresy, apostasy and schism.

Clerical abuse is "an egregious violation of moral law," Scicluna said. "An attempted ordination of a woman is grave, but on another level: It is a wound, it is an attempt against the Catholic faith on the sacrament of (holy) orders. So they are grave, but on different levels."

Archbishop Robert Zollitsch, the dean of Germany's bishops conference, welcomed the new guidelines as a clear signal stressing that cases of sexual abuse of children and youths have to be thoroughly investigated and punished.

"The injustice of the past is being cleared, and the conclusions for the present and the future are being drawn," he said in a statement.

Benedict's native Germany has seen a flood of abuse allegations surface, and even his own tenure as archbishop of Munich has come under scrutiny since a pedophile priest in his archdiocese was allowed to resume pastoral work while being treated.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on July 24, 2010, 02:20:46 AM
I just learned from a Catholic sister that the scandal has erupted today in Italy with newspaper reports.  Have not yet checked the news sites as yet.  I am not even sure if I want to.  It is all a bit much!  This brings the pressure even closer to the Pope.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on July 24, 2010, 03:13:31 AM
I just learned from a Catholic sister that the scandal has erupted today in Italy with newspaper reports.  Have not yet checked the news sites as yet.  I am not even sure if I want to.  It is all a bit much!  This brings the pressure even closer to the Pope.
What scandal are you talking about now? Is it the one with the videos of priests in (***) bars? I don;t see this as being close to the Pope?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on July 24, 2010, 04:42:50 AM
I just learned from a Catholic sister that the scandal has erupted today in Italy with newspaper reports.  Have not yet checked the news sites as yet.  I am not even sure if I want to.  It is all a bit much!  This brings the pressure even closer to the Pope.
What scandal are you talking about now? Is it the one with the videos of priests in (***) bars? I don;t see this as being close to the Pope?


While the Pope may live in a foreign country and not in Rome yet I thought that Rome was his own diocese.   How can any scandals in his own diocese not be close to the Pope?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: rakovsky on July 25, 2010, 04:20:36 PM
I just learned from a Catholic sister that the scandal has erupted today in Italy with newspaper reports.  Have not yet checked the news sites as yet.  I am not even sure if I want to.  It is all a bit much!  This brings the pressure even closer to the Pope.
What scandal are you talking about now? Is it the one with the videos of priests in (***) bars? I don;t see this as being close to the Pope?


While the Pope may live in a foreign country and not in Rome yet I thought that Rome was his own diocese.   How can any scandals in his own diocese not be close to the Pope?

Moneys are cute. In purely scientific terms, we are monkeys too. Lord have mercy.
(http://itsmelove.exteen.com/images/See%20no%20Evil%20Hear%20no%20Evil%20Speak%20no%20Evil%201.jpg)

Lord forgive us our indifferences.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: ytterbiumanalyst on August 05, 2010, 08:06:46 PM
In purely scientific terms, we are monkeys too.
Not exactly true. We and monkeys are both primates. Saying we are monkeys is like saying lizards are turtles. They are both members of the order lepidosauria, yes, but they are hardly the same. In the same way, humans (family hominidae) and monkeys (families cebidae and aotidae) are both part of order primata, but we are indeed very different from each other.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on August 05, 2010, 08:08:09 PM
I just learned from a Catholic sister that the scandal has erupted today in Italy with newspaper reports.  Have not yet checked the news sites as yet.  I am not even sure if I want to.  It is all a bit much!  This brings the pressure even closer to the Pope.
What scandal are you talking about now? Is it the one with the videos of priests in (***) bars? I don;t see this as being close to the Pope?


While the Pope may live in a foreign country and not in Rome yet I thought that Rome was his own diocese.   How can any scandals in his own diocese not be close to the Pope?
Yes. I think you are correct here.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Sloga on August 06, 2010, 05:46:08 AM
in case anyone wants to see any real footage of the scandal at hand.



Link to video removed pursuant to the Moratorium on Discussing Homosexual Conduct (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,25372.0.html)  -PtA
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on August 06, 2010, 06:10:50 AM
After viewing the Video link Posted by....... ;D
Why Is His Holiness, The Ecumenical Patriarch rushing to unite with rome, I can't understand it... ???
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on August 07, 2010, 11:45:46 AM
I did not know that the US (or some States?) will prosecute clergy for failing to report abuse cases.

2 Phoenix pastors indicted for failing to report accusations of sexual abuse to authorities
 
The Los Angeles Times
Date: 8/5/2010
 
   
PHOENIX (AP) - Two Phoenix pastors have been indicted for not reporting that a girl told them her father was sexually abusing her and her sister.  Maricopa County prosecutors brought the charges Thursday after the man was arrested last month and accused of molesting his two teenage daughters for several years. ....
 
Authorities say 51-year-old Daniel McCluskey and 38-year-old Laura McCluskey are two of the family's pastors. Investigators say one of the girls told the McCluskeys about the alleged abuse in 2008, but he Church on the Word pastors told her to make amends with her father. Prosecutors say the pastors had a duty to report the suspected abuse to state Child Protective Services or law enforcement.

 http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-us-phoenix-pastors-indicted,0,1215713.story



Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 07, 2010, 12:04:36 PM
I did not know that the US (or some States?) will prosecute clergy for failing to report abuse cases.

2 Phoenix pastors indicted for failing to report accusations of sexual abuse to authorities
 
The Los Angeles Times
Date: 8/5/2010
 
   
PHOENIX (AP) - Two Phoenix pastors have been indicted for not reporting that a girl told them her father was sexually abusing her and her sister.  Maricopa County prosecutors brought the charges Thursday after the man was arrested last month and accused of molesting his two teenage daughters for several years. ....
 
Authorities say 51-year-old Daniel McCluskey and 38-year-old Laura McCluskey are two of the family's pastors. Investigators say one of the girls told the McCluskeys about the alleged abuse in 2008, but he Church on the Word pastors told her to make amends with her father. Prosecutors say the pastors had a duty to report the suspected abuse to state Child Protective Services or law enforcement.

 http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-us-phoenix-pastors-indicted,0,1215713.story


There is a class of people under US Law who are called 'mandated reporters.'   They include teachers, health care workers, clergy, public service officials...not sure who all else, but these people must report suspected cases of abuse or face prosecution on their own.

Do you think that fathers who tamper sexually with their daughters should go to prison?  Is there a line to draw where you simply stop the behaviors and move on or do you tear the family apart for the slightest infraction?

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on August 07, 2010, 12:23:27 PM

Do you think that fathers who tamper sexually with their daughters should go to prison?  Is there a line to draw where you simply stop the behaviors and move on or do you tear the family apart for the slightest infraction?


I can only speak for the laws of my country where Police have some leeway in laying charges against an abusing father after giving consideration to the situation of the family.  I don't know what percentage of fathers are charged, convicted and imprisoned and what percentage is not.

............(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_N5Uwat0gmlY/S5dWemrbc9I/AAAAAAAAA6E/vgR4ylpOy_Q/S1600-R/crivelli%2BSt%2BMichael.jpg)
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 07, 2010, 12:31:11 PM
That is a beautiful iconic invocation, and most appropriate.   I'll not over-ride it here.

Very interesting that the police have some leeway there.  I think that is very wise.  I don't know that our laws are that full of human compassion in this country...there may be room, but I don't know what it is or how it is expressed or codified.

Mary




Do you think that fathers who tamper sexually with their daughters should go to prison?  Is there a line to draw where you simply stop the behaviors and move on or do you tear the family apart for the slightest infraction?


I can only speak for the laws of my country where Police have some leeway in laying charges against an abusing father after giving consideration to the situation of the family.  I don't know what percentage of fathers are charged, convicted and imprisoned and what percentage is not.

............(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_N5Uwat0gmlY/S5dWemrbc9I/AAAAAAAAA6E/vgR4ylpOy_Q/S1600-R/crivelli%2BSt%2BMichael.jpg)
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: theistgal on August 07, 2010, 06:29:38 PM
Hmm ... with all due respect, Mary, YES I think fathers who "tamper with their daughters sexually" should go to prison!  Can't fathom why you think they shouldn't?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 07, 2010, 07:06:29 PM
Hmm ... with all due respect, Mary, YES I think fathers who "tamper with their daughters sexually" should go to prison!  Can't fathom why you think they shouldn't?

Yes.  I am absolutely certain you cannot.

In Christ,

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: theistgal on August 07, 2010, 08:00:20 PM
OK - so why shouldn't ANY adult who "tampers with" a child sexually - whether related or not - be dealt with severely by the law??  What am I missing here, Mary? 
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 07, 2010, 08:42:14 PM
OK - so why shouldn't ANY adult who "tampers with" a child sexually - whether related or not - be dealt with severely by the law??  What am I missing here, Mary? 



You have a good heart, so let us not contest this.

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: theistgal on August 07, 2010, 09:21:51 PM
But isn't this the whole essence of the abuse scandal, and why it is so scandalous - the idea that some abusers should be protected, rather than punished, because they are "fathers" and therefore somehow their abusive actions are different?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 07, 2010, 11:12:02 PM
But isn't this the whole essence of the abuse scandal, and why it is so scandalous - the idea that some abusers should be protected, rather than punished, because they are "fathers" and therefore somehow their abusive actions are different?

Have you ever been molested by anyone?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: theistgal on August 08, 2010, 12:00:02 AM
Oh no you don't, Mary.  We're not discussing our own anecdotal experiences.  And I don't play "blame the victim, forgive the abuser" games either.  Anyone who molests a child deserves to be punished.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 08, 2010, 11:30:24 AM
Oh no you don't, Mary.  We're not discussing our own anecdotal experiences.  And I don't play "blame the victim, forgive the abuser" games either.  Anyone who molests a child deserves to be punished.

 :laugh:  I see.

We do not agree at all on the fine points.  I don't even think you have a fine point to use in this discussion from what you are saying here.

Not to worry.  My opinions are inconsequential, I am not in charge of much of anything but my own life and that is quite enough.

I would like to ask why "forgive the abuser" is linked to "blame the victim"?   From what I can see they are not necessarily related.  They may be but they are not contingent.

M.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on August 08, 2010, 11:47:42 AM
Oh no you don't, Mary.  We're not discussing our own anecdotal experiences.  And I don't play "blame the victim, forgive the abuser" games either.  Anyone who molests a child deserves to be punished.

 :laugh:  I see.

We do not agree at all on the fine points.  I don't even think you have a fine point to use in this discussion from what you are saying here.

Not to worry.  My opinions are inconsequential, I am not in charge of much of anything but my own life and that is quite enough.

I would like to ask why "forgive the abuser" is linked to "blame the victim"?   From what I can see they are not necessarily related.  They may be but they are not contingent.

M.

I've never forgotten the day in Religious Studies class decades ago when Fr Bennet proclaimed:  "Men, the human race is a contingent creation.  There was no need for God to create us.  Since He knows everything in advance He would never have created us if the great majority of us were going to go to the eternal fires of Hell.  Pay no attention to the people who tell you most of the us are destined for hell.  They have no idea of what they speak.   Tell them that the very contingency of the human race utterly precludes that and the idea imputes evil to God Himselfl"

Most of us actually sat up, took notice, and wrote it down!
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 08, 2010, 02:03:41 PM
Oh no you don't, Mary.  We're not discussing our own anecdotal experiences.  And I don't play "blame the victim, forgive the abuser" games either.  Anyone who molests a child deserves to be punished.

 :laugh:  I see.

We do not agree at all on the fine points.  I don't even think you have a fine point to use in this discussion from what you are saying here.

Not to worry.  My opinions are inconsequential, I am not in charge of much of anything but my own life and that is quite enough.

I would like to ask why "forgive the abuser" is linked to "blame the victim"?   From what I can see they are not necessarily related.  They may be but they are not contingent.

M.

I've never forgotten the day in Religious Studies class decades ago when Fr Bennet proclaimed:  "Men, the human race is a contingent creation.  There was no need for God to create us.  Since He knows everything in advance He would never have created us if the great majority of us were going to go to the eternal fires of Hell.  Pay no attention to the people who tell you most of the us are destined for hell.  They have no idea of what they speak.   Tell them that the very contingency of the human race utterly precludes that and the idea imputes evil to God Himselfl"

Most of us actually sat up, took notice, and wrote it down!

The sweet sound of Origenism echoes down the age.  He was a brilliant brilliant theological mind, yet stained with the taint of heresy, much to my undying regret.

What does this have to do with earthly management of sexual abuse and abusers?

M.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on August 08, 2010, 07:50:33 PM
Oh no you don't, Mary.  We're not discussing our own anecdotal experiences.  And I don't play "blame the victim, forgive the abuser" games either.  Anyone who molests a child deserves to be punished.

 :laugh:  I see.

We do not agree at all on the fine points.  I don't even think you have a fine point to use in this discussion from what you are saying here.

Not to worry.  My opinions are inconsequential, I am not in charge of much of anything but my own life and that is quite enough.

I would like to ask why "forgive the abuser" is linked to "blame the victim"?   From what I can see they are not necessarily related.  They may be but they are not contingent.

M.

I've never forgotten the day in Religious Studies class decades ago when Fr Bennet proclaimed:  "Men, the human race is a contingent creation.  There was no need for God to create us.  Since He knows everything in advance He would never have created us if the great majority of us were going to go to the eternal fires of Hell.  Pay no attention to the people who tell you most of the us are destined for hell.  They have no idea of what they speak.   Tell them that the very contingency of the human race utterly precludes that and the idea imputes evil to God Himselfl"

Most of us actually sat up, took notice, and wrote it down!

The sweet sound of Origenism echoes down the age.  He was a brilliant brilliant theological mind, yet stained with the taint of heresy, much to my undying regret.

Try it on a hell fire and thunder street preacher....

Does God know everything?

....Yes.

Is the human race contingent?

....Yes.

Would God have created men if He knew that the great majority of us was going to spend eternity in the torments of hell fire?

Unless the man is the most committed of Calvinists he is bound to say, No.


Quote
What does this have to do with earthly management of sexual abuse and abusers?

When the decadent and debauched "Christian" West is conquered by Dar al-Islam, Sharia will take care of such people.  Our own institutions have become too effete to manage this evil.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 08, 2010, 07:56:38 PM
Oh no you don't, Mary.  We're not discussing our own anecdotal experiences.  And I don't play "blame the victim, forgive the abuser" games either.  Anyone who molests a child deserves to be punished.

 :laugh:  I see.

We do not agree at all on the fine points.  I don't even think you have a fine point to use in this discussion from what you are saying here.

Not to worry.  My opinions are inconsequential, I am not in charge of much of anything but my own life and that is quite enough.

I would like to ask why "forgive the abuser" is linked to "blame the victim"?   From what I can see they are not necessarily related.  They may be but they are not contingent.

M.

I've never forgotten the day in Religious Studies class decades ago when Fr Bennet proclaimed:  "Men, the human race is a contingent creation.  There was no need for God to create us.  Since He knows everything in advance He would never have created us if the great majority of us were going to go to the eternal fires of Hell.  Pay no attention to the people who tell you most of the us are destined for hell.  They have no idea of what they speak.   Tell them that the very contingency of the human race utterly precludes that and the idea imputes evil to God Himselfl"

Most of us actually sat up, took notice, and wrote it down!

The sweet sound of Origenism echoes down the age.  He was a brilliant brilliant theological mind, yet stained with the taint of heresy, much to my undying regret.

Try it on a hell fire and thunder street preacher....

Does God know everything?

....Yes.

Is the human race contingent?

....Yes.

Would God have created men if He knew that the great majority of us was going to spend eternity in the torments of hell fire?

Unless the man is the most committed of Calvinists he is bound to say, No.


Quote
What does this have to do with earthly management of sexual abuse and abusers?

When the decadent and debauched "Christian" West is conquered by Dar al-Islam, Sharia will take care of such people.  Our own institutions have become too effete to manage this evil.

Yer all heart, ducks.

What do you do with the abused who love their abuser?

Cut their heads off too?...well...actually, in the world you describe here...they do.

M.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on August 08, 2010, 08:04:09 PM
Oh no you don't, Mary.  We're not discussing our own anecdotal experiences.  And I don't play "blame the victim, forgive the abuser" games either.  Anyone who molests a child deserves to be punished.

 :laugh:  I see.

We do not agree at all on the fine points.  I don't even think you have a fine point to use in this discussion from what you are saying here.

Not to worry.  My opinions are inconsequential, I am not in charge of much of anything but my own life and that is quite enough.

I would like to ask why "forgive the abuser" is linked to "blame the victim"?   From what I can see they are not necessarily related.  They may be but they are not contingent.

M.

I've never forgotten the day in Religious Studies class decades ago when Fr Bennet proclaimed:  "Men, the human race is a contingent creation.  There was no need for God to create us.  Since He knows everything in advance He would never have created us if the great majority of us were going to go to the eternal fires of Hell.  Pay no attention to the people who tell you most of the us are destined for hell.  They have no idea of what they speak.   Tell them that the very contingency of the human race utterly precludes that and the idea imputes evil to God Himselfl"

Most of us actually sat up, took notice, and wrote it down!

The sweet sound of Origenism echoes down the age.  He was a brilliant brilliant theological mind, yet stained with the taint of heresy, much to my undying regret.

Try it on a hell fire and thunder street preacher....

Does God know everything?

....Yes.

Is the human race contingent?

....Yes.

Would God have created men if He knew that the great majority of us was going to spend eternity in the torments of hell fire?

Unless the man is the most committed of Calvinists he is bound to say, No.


Quote
What does this have to do with earthly management of sexual abuse and abusers?

When the decadent and debauched "Christian" West is conquered by Dar al-Islam, Sharia will take care of such people.  Our own institutions have become too effete to manage this evil.

Yer all heart, ducks.

What do you do with the abused who love their abuser?

Cut their heads off too?...well...actually, in the world you describe here...they do.

M.

Imagine the benefits of dhimmitude.  After the initial rough time of enforcement it will be so much better.   No liquor stores to fuel the criminals and the youth for their crimes.   No massage parlours,  no pornography, no Gay Pride marches, no abortion factories.  The Muslims will give us the public morality which Christianity has not been able to achieve.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 08, 2010, 08:07:43 PM

Imagine the benefits of dhimmitude.  After the initial rough time of enforcement it will be so much better.   No liquor stores to fuel the criminals and the youth for their crimes.   No massage parlours,  no pornography, no Gay Pride marches, no abortion factories.  The Muslims will give us the public morality which Christianity has not been able to achieve.

You ignored my question. 
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: theistgal on August 08, 2010, 08:14:53 PM
What irritated me in your earlier post, Mary, was that you seemed to be saying that only if I myself had been abused did I have the right to express an opinion on what should happen to abusers.

Must I also be a murder victim to voice my opinion that murderers ought to be locked away?  Or lose all my money before I can condemn burglars?

The sexual abuse of a minor child is both immoral and criminal, and should be dealt with accordingly.  The fact that the abused child still loves her abuser only makes the crime that much more heinous.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on August 08, 2010, 08:21:18 PM

Imagine the benefits of dhimmitude.  After the initial rough time of enforcement it will be so much better.   No liquor stores to fuel the criminals and the youth for their crimes.   No massage parlours,  no pornography, no Gay Pride marches, no abortion factories.  The Muslims will give us the public morality which Christianity has not been able to achieve.

You ignored my question. 

Cut their heads off too?...

The return of state executions to Western Europe will certainly be one of the features of the Muslim conquest.  On balance, because of the desirability of the return to traditional public morality, no mean achievement in decadent Europe, this will be seen as acceptable.    And after all, it is not long since execution was a common feature of the justice systems of Europe and I believe it still is in parts of the United States.  I have never liked the idea of execution but it has been a part of Christian society since its inception.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 08, 2010, 08:38:13 PM
What irritated me in your earlier post, Mary, was that you seemed to be saying that only if I myself had been abused did I have the right to express an opinion on what should happen to abusers.

Must I also be a murder victim to voice my opinion that murderers ought to be locked away?  Or lose all my money before I can condemn burglars?

The sexual abuse of a minor child is both immoral and criminal, and should be dealt with accordingly.  The fact that the abused child still loves her abuser only makes the crime that much more heinous.

I agree with your last comment here in that a child's love and affection and trust in his or her abuser does indeed make the crime more heinous.   Also makes it far more difficult to manage.

Also not all abuse is of the same magnitude in terms of actual sexual activity.  Some of it may be in the nature of watching or fondling, rather than actual penetration or other more invasive acts.

So each different kind of action takes its own toll, differently.  And depends heavily on the individual psyche victim and not some "standard" for outcomes of abuse. 

In all cases there is prolonged and nagging fear for the victim.

Fear of being exposed...the secretive aspect.

Fear of being in some way complicit...if nothing but by silence.

Fear of having the abuser harmed in some way by exposure...which may be more terrifying than facing any personal harm.

Fear of hurting another loved one if the abuse is discovered.

Fear that it will never stop.

Fear that it will...and then there is nothing but the awful silence.

Very complicated and there is no one-size-fits-all response to the abuser that is good for the VICTIM!!

I find that exceptionally few people take any of this, and more than this even, into consideration when  talking about abuse cases, much less the law enforcement and mental health establishments.

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: theistgal on August 08, 2010, 08:46:18 PM
So what's the answer?  Just keep silent and let the abuser keep doing his thing? 

How will the victim feel when he/she finds out that his/her abuser has molested other children, too?

How will the victim feel when he/she finds out that his/her abuser actually murdered someone?

And I note in another thread that you don't seem to have a whole lot of sympathy for the victim when she's "scantily clad".  ::)
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on August 08, 2010, 08:47:26 PM
What irritated me in your earlier post, Mary, was that you seemed to be saying that only if I myself had been abused did I have the right to express an opinion on what should happen to abusers.

Must I also be a murder victim to voice my opinion that murderers ought to be locked away?  Or lose all my money before I can condemn burglars?

The sexual abuse of a minor child is both immoral and criminal, and should be dealt with accordingly.  The fact that the abused child still loves her abuser only makes the crime that much more heinous.

I agree with your last comment here in that a child's love and affection and trust in his or her abuser does indeed make the crime more heinous.   Also makes it far more difficult to manage.

Also not all abuse is of the same magnitude in terms of actual sexual activity.  Some of it may be in the nature of watching or fondling, rather than actual penetration or other more invasive acts.

So each different kind of action takes its own toll, differently.  And depends heavily on the individual psyche victim and not some "standard" for outcomes of abuse. 

In all cases there is prolonged and nagging fear for the victim.

Fear of being exposed...the secretive aspect.

Fear of being in some way complicit...if nothing but by silence.

Fear of having the abuser harmed in some way by exposure...which may be more terrifying than facing any personal harm.

Fear of hurting another loved one if the abuse is discovered.

Fear that it will never stop.

Fear that it will...and then there is nothing but the awful silence.

Very complicated and there is no one-size-fits-all response to the abuser that is good for the VICTIM!!

I find that exceptionally few people take any of this, and more than this even, into consideration when  talking about abuse cases, much less the law enforcement and mental health establishments.

Mary

Interesting.  In this country it is the opposite.  The mental health organisations, the Police and the Courts will give a lot of thought to these considerations.  Perhaps a result of our being a "Social Welfare" state for over a century now.

To bring this back on topic, I wonder how this plays out in Europe?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 08, 2010, 08:59:59 PM
What irritated me in your earlier post, Mary, was that you seemed to be saying that only if I myself had been abused did I have the right to express an opinion on what should happen to abusers.

Must I also be a murder victim to voice my opinion that murderers ought to be locked away?  Or lose all my money before I can condemn burglars?

The sexual abuse of a minor child is both immoral and criminal, and should be dealt with accordingly.  The fact that the abused child still loves her abuser only makes the crime that much more heinous.

I agree with your last comment here in that a child's love and affection and trust in his or her abuser does indeed make the crime more heinous.   Also makes it far more difficult to manage.

Also not all abuse is of the same magnitude in terms of actual sexual activity.  Some of it may be in the nature of watching or fondling, rather than actual penetration or other more invasive acts.

So each different kind of action takes its own toll, differently.  And depends heavily on the individual psyche victim and not some "standard" for outcomes of abuse. 

In all cases there is prolonged and nagging fear for the victim.

Fear of being exposed...the secretive aspect.

Fear of being in some way complicit...if nothing but by silence.

Fear of having the abuser harmed in some way by exposure...which may be more terrifying than facing any personal harm.

Fear of hurting another loved one if the abuse is discovered.

Fear that it will never stop.

Fear that it will...and then there is nothing but the awful silence.

Very complicated and there is no one-size-fits-all response to the abuser that is good for the VICTIM!!

I find that exceptionally few people take any of this, and more than this even, into consideration when  talking about abuse cases, much less the law enforcement and mental health establishments.

Mary

Interesting.  In this country it is the opposite.  The mental health organisations, the Police and the Courts will give a lot of thought to these considerations.  Perhaps a result of our being a "Social Welfare" state for over a century now.

To bring this back on topic, I wonder how this plays out in Europe?

In the secular world of abuse-care as you know it there, are the victims ever recommended for spiritual guidance that you know of?

I don't know how it plays out in Europe, of course. 

I know I am not impressed with what goes on in this country.

M.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 08, 2010, 09:00:48 PM
So what's the answer?  Just keep silent and let the abuser keep doing his thing? 

How will the victim feel when he/she finds out that his/her abuser has molested other children, too?

How will the victim feel when he/she finds out that his/her abuser actually murdered someone?

And I note in another thread that you don't seem to have a whole lot of sympathy for the victim when she's "scantily clad".  ::)

Until you stop huffing and puffing and adding things to what I say, you can talk to somebody else.

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on August 08, 2010, 09:34:53 PM

Interesting.  In this country it is the opposite.  The mental health organisations, the Police and the Courts will give a lot of thought to these considerations.  Perhaps a result of our being a "Social Welfare" state for over a century now.

In the secular world of abuse-care as you know it there, are the victims ever recommended for spiritual guidance that you know of?

My brother is a psychiatric nurse and works now in an administrative position for a governmental mental health agency.  He has spoken of this and says that it is a very sensitive question.  We, too, here in New Zealand, have had Catholic priests convicted and imprisoned fro sexual abuse and the position and prestige and trust in any Church and its clergy is at a low ebb.  Many victims would be apprehensive about any spiritual counseling from a clergyman, seeing them as enablers of the wider societal pattern of abuse.  For a secular counsellor to recommend to a victim that they seek counselling from a priest or clergyman is fraught with all sorts of problems, not the least being the possible repercussion on the counsellor if a complaint is made to his/her superiors. Some  victims, of course, are happy to seek out spiritual counselling on their own.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 08, 2010, 09:47:01 PM

Interesting.  In this country it is the opposite.  The mental health organisations, the Police and the Courts will give a lot of thought to these considerations.  Perhaps a result of our being a "Social Welfare" state for over a century now.

In the secular world of abuse-care as you know it there, are the victims ever recommended for spiritual guidance that you know of?

My brother is a psychiatric nurse and works now in an administrative position for a governmental mental health agency.  He has spoken of this and says that it is a very sensitive question.  We, too, here in New Zealand, have had Catholic priests convicted and imprisoned fro sexual abuse and the position and prestige and trust in any Church and its clergy is at a low ebb.  Many victims would be apprehensive about any spiritual counseling from a clergyman, seeing them as enablers of the wider societal pattern of abuse.  For a secular counsellor to recommend to a victim that they seek counselling from a priest or clergyman is fraught with all sorts of problems, not the least being the possible repercussion on the counsellor if a complaint is made to his/her superiors. Some  victims, of course, are happy to seek out spiritual counselling on their own.

I was thinking more along the lines of families being, by far and away, the source of the greatest percentage of sexual abuse in any society.  Is there spiritual help encouraged for children who have been victims of abuse in the home or from a trusted family member?...or does the same barrier apply?

Is talk therapy expected to be sufficient? 

How do you think secular health care deals with areas of forgiveness, for example, in cases of abuse where the abuser is the mother or the father, or if there is conflict between secular ideas of forgiveness and religious ideas of forgiveness?  This difference seems to be particularly glaring for Catholics and Orthodox who are expected to forgive and forget as God forgives and forgets.   In fact anyone who takes the Pater Noster seriously ought to have a real problem with secular talk therapy...don't you think?

Mary

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on August 08, 2010, 10:02:53 PM

Interesting.  In this country it is the opposite.  The mental health organisations, the Police and the Courts will give a lot of thought to these considerations.  Perhaps a result of our being a "Social Welfare" state for over a century now.

In the secular world of abuse-care as you know it there, are the victims ever recommended for spiritual guidance that you know of?

My brother is a psychiatric nurse and works now in an administrative position for a governmental mental health agency.  He has spoken of this and says that it is a very sensitive question.  We, too, here in New Zealand, have had Catholic priests convicted and imprisoned fro sexual abuse and the position and prestige and trust in any Church and its clergy is at a low ebb.  Many victims would be apprehensive about any spiritual counseling from a clergyman, seeing them as enablers of the wider societal pattern of abuse.  For a secular counsellor to recommend to a victim that they seek counselling from a priest or clergyman is fraught with all sorts of problems, not the least being the possible repercussion on the counsellor if a complaint is made to his/her superiors. Some  victims, of course, are happy to seek out spiritual counselling on their own.

I was thinking more along the lines of families being, by far and away, the source of the greatest percentage of sexual abuse in any society.  Is there spiritual help encouraged for children who have been victims of abuse in the home or from a trusted family member?...or does the same barrier apply?

Is talk therapy expected to be sufficient? 

How do you think secular health care deals with areas of forgiveness, for example, in cases of abuse where the abuser is the mother or the father, or if there is conflict between secular ideas of forgiveness and religious ideas of forgiveness?  This difference seems to be particularly glaring for Catholics and Orthodox who are expected to forgive and forget as God forgives and forgets.   In fact anyone who takes the Pater Noster seriously ought to have a real problem with secular talk therapy...don't you think?

For better or worse what you call "secular talk therapy" is what is available to all the population.   If a person desires something additional, some sort of religious therapy and counselling from a practitioner of religion, whether Christian or Muslim, they would need to make their own arrangements with whatever religious organisation they prefer.

Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 09, 2010, 12:16:02 AM

Interesting.  In this country it is the opposite.  The mental health organisations, the Police and the Courts will give a lot of thought to these considerations.  Perhaps a result of our being a "Social Welfare" state for over a century now.

In the secular world of abuse-care as you know it there, are the victims ever recommended for spiritual guidance that you know of?

My brother is a psychiatric nurse and works now in an administrative position for a governmental mental health agency.  He has spoken of this and says that it is a very sensitive question.  We, too, here in New Zealand, have had Catholic priests convicted and imprisoned fro sexual abuse and the position and prestige and trust in any Church and its clergy is at a low ebb.  Many victims would be apprehensive about any spiritual counseling from a clergyman, seeing them as enablers of the wider societal pattern of abuse.  For a secular counsellor to recommend to a victim that they seek counselling from a priest or clergyman is fraught with all sorts of problems, not the least being the possible repercussion on the counsellor if a complaint is made to his/her superiors. Some  victims, of course, are happy to seek out spiritual counselling on their own.

I was thinking more along the lines of families being, by far and away, the source of the greatest percentage of sexual abuse in any society.  Is there spiritual help encouraged for children who have been victims of abuse in the home or from a trusted family member?...or does the same barrier apply?

Is talk therapy expected to be sufficient? 

How do you think secular health care deals with areas of forgiveness, for example, in cases of abuse where the abuser is the mother or the father, or if there is conflict between secular ideas of forgiveness and religious ideas of forgiveness?  This difference seems to be particularly glaring for Catholics and Orthodox who are expected to forgive and forget as God forgives and forgets.   In fact anyone who takes the Pater Noster seriously ought to have a real problem with secular talk therapy...don't you think?

For better or worse what you call "secular talk therapy" is what is available to all the population.   If a person desires something additional, some sort of religious therapy and counselling from a practitioner of religion, whether Christian or Muslim, they would need to make their own arrangements with whatever religious organisation they prefer.



I was asking of you thought it was sufficient?

Do you think that secular therapy in some cases, particularly when it contradicts religious teaching, can be harmful?

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on August 09, 2010, 12:30:36 AM

I was asking of you thought it was sufficient?

Do you think that secular therapy in some cases, particularly when it contradicts religious teaching, can be harmful?

Mary

In my life I have seen much harm come from wacko religious teaching, much much less from anything secular.


Is secular therapy sufficient?   My opinion is that it is good as far as it goes and so let's not ask of it more than it can give.    Whether or not to add in religious therapy is such a tricky question,  For example, if we look at John Romanides (I can hear you snorting fire!!) and Saint Justin Popovich their opinion is that the religious psychology of Western Christianity (whether it is Catholicism or Calvinism, Mormonism or Mennonism) is sick and "off base" and it can only do damage to a man religiously and psychologically.  It cannot cure, it can only make worse.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 09, 2010, 12:48:07 AM

I was asking of you thought it was sufficient?

Do you think that secular therapy in some cases, particularly when it contradicts religious teaching, can be harmful?

Mary

In my life I have seen much harm come from wacko religious teaching, much much less from anything secular.


Is secular therapy sufficient?   My opinion is that it is good as far as it goes and so let's not ask of it more than it can give.    Whether or not to add in religious therapy is such a tricky question,  For example, if we look at John Romanides (I can hear you snorting fire!!) and Saint Justin Popovich their opinion is that the religious psychology of Western Christianity (whether it is Catholicism or Calvinism, Mormonism or Mennonism) is sick and "off base" and it can only do damage to a man religiously and psychologically.  It cannot cure, it can only make worse.

Well I can tell you from experience that I have been helped much more from my Catholic spiritual life than I was ever helped by talk therapy.  In fact the talk therapy kept me from actually being able to forgive and escape the fury that comes with certain kinds of abuse over time.  It was not till I went through Carmelite formation and formation in the Fathers, through my own spiritual father that I was able to even begin to heal from post-traumatic stress symptoms and high anxiety.   And I've been able to help others as well as I learned how to manage on my own...without drugs and the roller-coaster ride that produces.  Some of the women that I work with have had to endure electro-shock treatments to help them "get over" bad interactions with their drug cocktails.  Now they live drug free.

So I must say that I think you have a pretty expansive view of secular talk therapy and a much too cramped opinion of Catholic spiritual practice.   I am sorry that your vision is so poor in this regard.  I thought we might have been able to talk a bit.

Sorry.  I'll know better than to ask next time.

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on August 09, 2010, 01:11:18 AM

I was asking of you thought it was sufficient?

Do you think that secular therapy in some cases, particularly when it contradicts religious teaching, can be harmful?

Mary

In my life I have seen much harm come from wacko religious teaching, much much less from anything secular.


Is secular therapy sufficient?   My opinion is that it is good as far as it goes and so let's not ask of it more than it can give.    Whether or not to add in religious therapy is such a tricky question,  For example, if we look at John Romanides (I can hear you snorting fire!!) and Saint Justin Popovich their opinion is that the religious psychology of Western Christianity (whether it is Catholicism or Calvinism, Mormonism or Mennonism) is sick and "off base" and it can only do damage to a man religiously and psychologically.  It cannot cure, it can only make worse.

Well I can tell you from experience that I have been helped much more from my Catholic spiritual life than I was ever helped by talk therapy.  In fact the talk therapy kept me from actually being able to forgive and escape the fury that comes with certain kinds of abuse over time.  It was not till I went through Carmelite formation and formation in the Fathers, through my own spiritual father that I was able to even begin to heal from post-traumatic stress symptoms and high anxiety.   And I've been able to help others as well as I learned how to manage on my own...without drugs and the roller-coaster ride that produces.  Some of the women that I work with have had to endure electro-shock treatments to help them "get over" bad interactions with their drug cocktails.  Now they live drug free.

So I must say that I think you have a pretty expansive view of secular talk therapy and a much too cramped opinion of Catholic spiritual practice.   I am sorry that your vision is so poor in this regard.  I thought we might have been able to talk a bit.

Sorry.  I'll know better than to ask next time.


I am taking a quite pragmatic view based on my experiences in life and what is available by way of counselling to the ordinary person.

You seem to live in a very privileged universe.  Very few shopgirls or factory workers who have been raped have the ability or the intellectual nonce to access a Carmelite programme of formation and undertake a study of the Fathers.

I am sorry to disappoint you, but the world in which you live does not have much relevance to my work at the coal face nor the people to whom I must minister.  We are only small fry.  It is not that my "vision is so poor in this regard" but conducting a dialogue with you on this topic would be unreal to me.  You have been personally very blessed but I just do not know women (maybe 0.0001%) who can access your privileged world of Carmelite formation, etc. and integrate it into their healing process.

________________
Btw, I don't know if you are aware of it but your messages of late have taken on a superior air.   You imply, without too much subtlety, that other members (Stanley, Wyatt, Theistgirl and myself) are not so well educated as you, not so well read, not as sensitive as you, lacking in this and lacking in that.  In my case it is all absolutely true but do you have to rub my nose in it!!   :laugh:
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 09, 2010, 01:20:18 AM

I was asking of you thought it was sufficient?

Do you think that secular therapy in some cases, particularly when it contradicts religious teaching, can be harmful?

Mary

In my life I have seen much harm come from wacko religious teaching, much much less from anything secular.


Is secular therapy sufficient?   My opinion is that it is good as far as it goes and so let's not ask of it more than it can give.    Whether or not to add in religious therapy is such a tricky question,  For example, if we look at John Romanides (I can hear you snorting fire!!) and Saint Justin Popovich their opinion is that the religious psychology of Western Christianity (whether it is Catholicism or Calvinism, Mormonism or Mennonism) is sick and "off base" and it can only do damage to a man religiously and psychologically.  It cannot cure, it can only make worse.

Well I can tell you from experience that I have been helped much more from my Catholic spiritual life than I was ever helped by talk therapy.  In fact the talk therapy kept me from actually being able to forgive and escape the fury that comes with certain kinds of abuse over time.  It was not till I went through Carmelite formation and formation in the Fathers, through my own spiritual father that I was able to even begin to heal from post-traumatic stress symptoms and high anxiety.   And I've been able to help others as well as I learned how to manage on my own...without drugs and the roller-coaster ride that produces.  Some of the women that I work with have had to endure electro-shock treatments to help them "get over" bad interactions with their drug cocktails.  Now they live drug free.

So I must say that I think you have a pretty expansive view of secular talk therapy and a much too cramped opinion of Catholic spiritual practice.   I am sorry that your vision is so poor in this regard.  I thought we might have been able to talk a bit.

Sorry.  I'll know better than to ask next time.


I am taking a quite pragmatic view based on my experiences in life and what is available by way of counselling to the ordinary person.

You seem to live in a very privileged universe.  Very few shopgirls or factory workers who have been raped have the ability or the intellectual nonce to access a Carmelite programme of formation and undertake a study of the Fathers.

I am sorry to disappoint you, but the world in which you live does not have much relevance to my work at the coal face nor the people to whom I must minister.  We are only small fry.  It is not that my "vision is so poor in this regard" but conducting a dialogue with you on this topic would be unreal to me.  You have been personally very blessed but I just do not know women (maybe 0.0001%) who can access your privileged world of Carmelite formation, etc. and integrate it into their healing process.

Don't you think its unwise to come on a verbal attack against someone who has already admitted to being abused to the point where interventions were necessary?

I would have thought your pastoral expertise would have precluded that.

BTW I live in a tiny rural town that is so small there is nothing here but a post office...in the middle of strip mining country in central PA, USA.

Ahwell...

M.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on August 09, 2010, 06:17:51 AM
[
Don't you think its unwise to come on a verbal attack against someone who has already admitted to being abused to the point where interventions were necessary?

I would have thought your pastoral expertise would have precluded that.


Mary, Heart of Oak, that was not a verbal attack.  It was explaining how I see your very unique and privileged situation with regards to access to the type of spiritual counselling which has helped you, but what you have had available is not available to 99.99% of women.  In a way, what I wrote to you was a compliment to your uniqueness, fortitude and intelligence.

However, that you should misinterpret it as an attack may be an indication that healing needs to continue..... and my sincere apologies for missing that.    I have always maintained that the internet is a lousy vehicle for counselling.  Please appreciate that I am not counselling you (God forbid I have such temerity!) but the opportunities for the type of misunderstanding which I fear in internet counselling are exampled by how you mistook my message.


O Lord my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me.
Psalm 29:2
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 09, 2010, 08:33:55 AM
[
Don't you think its unwise to come on a verbal attack against someone who has already admitted to being abused to the point where interventions were necessary?

I would have thought your pastoral expertise would have precluded that.


Mary, Heart of Oak, that was not a verbal attack.  It was explaining how I see your very unique and privileged situation with regards to access to the type of spiritual counselling which has helped you, but what you have had available is not available to 99.99% of women.  In a way, what I wrote to you was a compliment to your uniqueness, fortitude and intelligence.

However, that you should misinterpret it as an attack may be an indication that healing needs to continue..... and my sincere apologies for missing that.    I have always maintained that the internet is a lousy vehicle for counselling.  Please appreciate that I am not counselling you (God forbid I have such temerity!) but the opportunities for the type of misunderstanding which I fear in internet counselling are exampled by how you mistook my message.


O Lord my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me.
Psalm 29:2

It does not take any special privilege to seek out spiritual healing of a healthy kind.  It would have been far better if you had asked me the circumstances in which I found my own.  There was no privilege about it, and others have and will continue to find it as well.  Some do not seek because they don't know how.  All I was asking you was for your thoughts on the matter.  I have them. 

That is all I have to say in this thread at the moment, since no one else really seems interested in a discussion that might go somewhere positive.

Thanks anyway.  Don't worry about anything.  Always best to know what's what for real.

M.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on August 11, 2010, 05:44:17 PM
Vatican rejects resignations of 2 Dublin bishops
AP – Wed Aug 11, 1:48 pm ET

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100811/ap_on_re_eu/eu_ireland_catholic_abuse
   
DUBLIN - Dublin Archbishop Diarmuid Martin has told priests that the Vatican has rejected the resignations of his two auxiliary bishops following their reported involvement in the Roman Catholic Church's cover-up of child abuse.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on August 11, 2010, 07:36:08 PM
Vatican rejects resignations of 2 Dublin bishops
AP – Wed Aug 11, 1:48 pm ET

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100811/ap_on_re_eu/eu_ireland_catholic_abuse
   
DUBLIN - Dublin Archbishop Diarmuid Martin has told priests that the Vatican has rejected the resignations of his two auxiliary bishops following their reported involvement in the Roman Catholic Church's cover-up of child abuse.
Not good.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 11, 2010, 07:51:10 PM
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2010/08/09/now-we-have-real-evidence-–-sexual-abuse-is-not-a-‘catholic-problem’/

By William Oddie on Monday, 9 August 2010

...The fact is, however, that not only is the Catholic Church NOT an endemically paedophile organisation, the evidence is now emerging that, in fact, even Newsweek is exaggerating: it’s not that “priests… abuse children at the same rate as everyone else”: actually, according to Dr Thomas Plante of Stanford University and Santa Clara University, “available research suggests that approximately two to five per cent of priests have had a sexual experience with a minor” which “is lower than the general adult male population” – in which the percentage of those who have interfered with minors “is best estimated to be closer to eight per cent”. In other words, children who have anything to do with priests are between 1.6 and four times LESS likely to be abused by them than by anyone else.


Post edited to enforce compliance with new forum policy against the copying and pasting of whole news articles (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13455.msg456852.html#msg456852 (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13455.msg456852.html#msg456852))

Text of full article can be read by clicking the link provided by poster  -PtA
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Sloga on August 12, 2010, 01:34:00 AM

...The fact is, however, that not only is the Catholic Church NOT an endemically paedophile organisation, the evidence is now emerging that, in fact, even Newsweek is exaggerating: it’s not that “priests… abuse children at the same rate as everyone else”: actually, according to Dr Thomas Plante of Stanford University and Santa Clara University, “available research suggests that approximately two to five per cent of priests have had a sexual experience with a minor” which “is lower than the general adult male population” – in which the percentage of those who have interfered with minors “is best estimated to be closer to eight per cent”. In other words, children who have anything to do with priests are between 1.6 and four times LESS likely to be abused by them than by anyone else.


I think after providing these statistics, I am more alarmed. I already figured occurrences were less often with priests than the rest of the population, but I honestly expected it to be much less lower. The moral grounds a priest stands on should mean 0% of occurences. The religious rules they are supposed to be following also means there should be 0% occurences. Ultimately I thought the number would be less than 1%.

two to five percent??????? How many priests are there world wide, can you provide a number? How many unreported cases have occurred then?????
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on August 12, 2010, 02:20:49 AM
I think after providing these statistics, I am more alarmed. I already figured occurrences were less often with priests than the rest of the population, but I honestly expected it to be much less lower. The moral grounds a priest stands on should mean 0% of occurences. The religious rules they are supposed to be following also means there should be 0% occurences. Ultimately I thought the number would be less than 1%.

two to five percent??????? How many priests are there world wide, can you provide a number? How many unreported cases have occurred then?????
Yes. I agree with you completely. It is shameful and disgusting.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 12, 2010, 09:48:49 AM

...The fact is, however, that not only is the Catholic Church NOT an endemically paedophile organisation, the evidence is now emerging that, in fact, even Newsweek is exaggerating: it’s not that “priests… abuse children at the same rate as everyone else”: actually, according to Dr Thomas Plante of Stanford University and Santa Clara University, “available research suggests that approximately two to five per cent of priests have had a sexual experience with a minor” which “is lower than the general adult male population” – in which the percentage of those who have interfered with minors “is best estimated to be closer to eight per cent”. In other words, children who have anything to do with priests are between 1.6 and four times LESS likely to be abused by them than by anyone else.


I think after providing these statistics, I am more alarmed. I already figured occurrences were less often with priests than the rest of the population, but I honestly expected it to be much less lower. The moral grounds a priest stands on should mean 0% of occurences. The religious rules they are supposed to be following also means there should be 0% occurences. Ultimately I thought the number would be less than 1%.

two to five percent??????? How many priests are there world wide, can you provide a number? How many unreported cases have occurred then?????

Then...to make the comparison figures come out right... you'd have to account for all the fathers and mothers in families and brothers and sisters who abuse and go unreported...and extrapolate for all other societal figures as well...and I assure you that those numbers are legion!!....

And once you add the extrapolated figures of unreported cases, I would expect the Catholic Clergy figures to look even smaller!!  The unreported cases of family abuse would swamp everything else.

As the article there indicates, IF we really truly care about abused children, we better get off the Catholic hobby horse and start demanding equal time for ALL abusers and start suing cities who do not punish their offending employees.

But that would not be NEARLY so much fun for you because you'd have to put your real money where your mouth is now and start paying the taxes to pay off the law suits.

M.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: theistgal on August 12, 2010, 10:53:21 AM
I'm reading a good book right now, Michael Rose's "Goodbye, Good Men", which goes a long way towards explaining these things.  It's ver chilling, very sad, reading about the type of people who have had control of RC seminaries for the last several decades.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 12, 2010, 01:22:32 PM
I'm reading a good book right now, Michael Rose's "Goodbye, Good Men", which goes a long way towards explaining these things.  It's ver chilling, very sad, reading about the type of people who have had control of RC seminaries for the last several decades.

Do you happen to have the publication date for that book?  I remember it.

M.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: theistgal on August 12, 2010, 04:06:56 PM
I'm reading the hardback published in 2002.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: rakovsky on August 12, 2010, 10:05:22 PM
Theistgal,

What are some of the things you are learning about conditions in the seminaries?

Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 12, 2010, 10:08:32 PM
Theistgal,

What are some of the things you are learning about conditions in the seminaries?



To talk about the substance of that book would be a violation of a moratorium that is still in effect on the Forum.  A discussion of such a subject landed me in a penalty box for 60 days.

I doubt it would gain theistgal or you such a stiff penalty but it is probably best not to test my thesis.

M.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: theistgal on August 12, 2010, 10:38:49 PM
Some things I can discuss without violating the moratorium are things like semiinarians being ridiculed and discouraged from traditional devotions lile the Rosary, Eucharistic adoration, wtc. - also the determination of many in control of the seminaries to discourage young men who express loyalty to the teachings of the Church in areas like all-male priesthood, etc.  Worth reading if you can get it.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 12, 2010, 10:46:01 PM
Some things I can discuss without violating the moratorium are things like semiinarians being ridiculed and discouraged from traditional devotions lile the Rosary, Eucharistic adoration, wtc. - also the determination of many in control of the seminaries to discourage young men who express loyalty to the teachings of the Church in areas like all-male priesthood, etc.  Worth reading if you can get it.

Oddly, and this is something I still have trouble understanding, not all seminaries were like this and it became well known which ones were more "liberal" and which were more traditional.  The situation seems to have improved some since this book went to print.

M.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: theistgal on August 12, 2010, 10:55:12 PM
Yes, it's slowly turning around, but unfortunately there are still a whole lot of priests out there who've been ordained in the "bad" seminaries. It may take another couple of generations before all the damage is undone.  Thank God for the (relatively) undamaged Eastern Rites.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 12, 2010, 11:17:48 PM
Yes, it's slowly turning around, but unfortunately there are still a whole lot of priests out there who've been ordained in the "bad" seminaries. It may take another couple of generations before all the damage is undone.  Thank God for the (relatively) undamaged Eastern Rites.

Are you suggesting that we have currently a "whole lot" of priests who are sexual predators?

Is it axiomatic that bad priests come out of "bad" seminaries?

I know many good priests who had very very difficult time getting through suspect seminaries, but they are excellent priests.  In fact some of them are eastern Catholic priests.

Eastern Catholic seminaries are not all "good"...

M.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: theistgal on August 12, 2010, 11:23:16 PM
Hmm ... I don't believe I mentioned sexual predators, Mary.  In fact, I specifically avoided that whole issue.  The liturgical abuses and poor theology are bad enough, don't you agree?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 12, 2010, 11:27:10 PM
Hmm ... I don't believe I mentioned sexual predators, Mary.  In fact, I specifically avoided that whole issue.  The liturgical abuses and poor theology are bad enough, don't you agree?

I was simply asking questions to clarify.  I mean we are talking under a topic heading focused on sexual abuse, so it is not really an unexpected focus...eh?

Again, is it axiomatic that bad priests come out of bad seminaries?

M.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on August 12, 2010, 11:28:52 PM
Again, is it axiomatic that bad priests come out of bad seminaries?

If the bad seminaries are kicking out all the good men (Good-bye good men), then what do you have left?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 12, 2010, 11:32:35 PM
Again, is it axiomatic that bad priests come out of bad seminaries?

If the bad seminaries are kicking out all the good men (Good-bye good men), then what do you have left?

The fact that there are many more excellent priests, than bad priests, in the Catholic Church ordained SINCE the late 1950s puts that assertion to a real test.

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: theistgal on August 12, 2010, 11:46:50 PM
I really wish you would read the book before challenging me like this, Mary.  It's actually quite supportive of all those good priests you refer to.  But yes, bad seminaries certainly are more likely to turn out poorly trained and badly formed priests.  There's a long interview with EWTN's Fr. John Trigilio about his own struggles to be ordained. 
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 12, 2010, 11:50:49 PM
I really wish you would read the book before challenging me like this, Mary.  It's actually quite supportive of all those good priests you refer to.  But yes, bad seminaries certainly are more likely to turn out poorly trained and badly formed priests.  There's a long interview with EWTN's Fr. John Trigilio about his own struggles to be ordained. 

I was simply asking questions to try to open the discussion up a bit more to include what you've said here.
 
I actually read the book back in 2002.

Sorry, I thought we could talk back and forth.  I wasn't challenging you.  I am very familiar with the issues involved, personally so I have an interest in it.

Won't bother you any further.

M.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: theistgal on August 12, 2010, 11:53:25 PM
All right then:  how do you figure there are more "excellent" priests now than in the 1950's?  What objective data (not just opinion) can you offer to back that up?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: rakovsky on August 13, 2010, 11:37:23 AM
All right then:  how do you figure there are more "excellent" priests now than in the 1950's?  What objective data (not just opinion) can you offer to back that up?

When Elijah Maria said there were some bad seminaries among Ukrainian or Byzantine Catholic Churches that were as bad as the RC ones, what did she mean? What aspects of the seminaries were bad? I thought the child abuse scandal was much more of the mandatory celibate RC church and that the Ukrainian / Byzantine Churches allow people who have married in the USA to study at their seminaries?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on August 13, 2010, 01:07:30 PM
I wouldn't trust any of the eastern catholic or roman catholic clergy ,because they allow and have  bi-ritual priests the jump from latin to eastern catholic or vice a versa,just to be on the safe side and for the childrens sake......... ;D
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: theistgal on August 13, 2010, 01:21:08 PM
Yes stashko, we know what you think. :)   BTW the Romanian Catholic priest at our church is married and has 4, count 'em, 4 adorable kids!
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on August 13, 2010, 01:46:00 PM
Yes stashko, we know what you think. :)   BTW the Romanian Catholic priest at our church is married and has 4, count 'em, 4 adorable kids!

Doesn't a eastern catholic bi- ritual priest have to be celibate to preform a latin service,and since bi- ritual latin clergy are celibate..see the reason why one can't trust them around the children.....  ;D
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: PeterTheAleut on August 13, 2010, 01:55:05 PM
Yes stashko, we know what you think. :)   BTW the Romanian Catholic priest at our church is married and has 4, count 'em, 4 adorable kids!

Doesn't a eastern catholic bi- ritual priest have to be celibate to preform a latin service,and since bi- ritual latin clergy are celibate..see the reason why one can't trust them around the children.....  ;D
Man, stashko, your logic is just astounding this morning. ::)
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 13, 2010, 03:56:11 PM
A little more perspective:

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/2004_02_CatholicLeague_SexualAbuse.htm

  
Quote
PRIESTS

According to a [2004] survey by the Washington Post, over the last four decades, less than 1.5 percent of the estimated 60,000 or more men who have served in the Catholic clergy have been accused of child sexual abuse.[iv]  According to a survey by the New York Times, 1.8 percent of all priests ordained from 1950 to 2001 have been accused of child sexual abuse.[v]  Thomas Kane, author of Priests are People Too, estimates that between 1 and 1.5 percent of priests have had charges made against them.[vi]  Of contemporary priests, the Associated Press found that approximately two-thirds of 1 percent of priests have charges pending against them.[vii]

That means that in forty to fifty years, out of 60,000 priests, there were slightly more than 900 men accused of some kind of abuse.  Not all of those who were accused were convicted.  Some of them were innocent.  Some of them were removed from the priesthood.  Some were not.

But the bottom line is that out of 60,000 men in a fifty year period, taking the long view, a little more than 900 men were accused of abuse in the United States, which translates to about 18 men per annum.

I hate to tell all y'all but that is a drip in the bucket by comparison to other figures of abuse from other segments of our society including the married pastors from other Christian organizations.  

So stashko may think he's got somethin' goin' on here with his grinning faces but my estimation of stashko is that he dislikes Catholics a whole lot more than he dislikes child abusers....

M.

Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: theistgal on August 13, 2010, 05:42:34 PM
stashko, the priest I referred to with the 4 kids is not bi-ritual.  He is ONLY Romanian Catholic.  (And in case that doesn't make you feel safe, he's also a convert from Orthodoxy.) :)
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on August 13, 2010, 05:59:56 PM
/\ /\  SEXUAL ABUSE IN SOCIAL CONTEXT:
CATHOLIC CLERGY AND OTHER PROFESSIONALS

Special Report
by
Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights

February 2004

http://www.catholicleague.org/research/abuse_in_social_context.htm
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 13, 2010, 06:56:22 PM
Yes stashko, we know what you think. :)   BTW the Romanian Catholic priest at our church is married and has 4, count 'em, 4 adorable kids!

Doesn't a eastern catholic bi- ritual priest have to be celibate to preform a latin service,and since bi- ritual latin clergy are celibate..see the reason why one can't trust them around the children.....  ;D

Hey Stash:

http://dannimoss.wordpress.com/2008/06/20/protestant-clergy-abuse-equals-or-exceeds-catholic-clergy-abuse/

Protestant Clergy Abuse Equals or Exceeds Catholic Clergy Abuse
Posted on June 20, 2008 by dannimoss

This article is courtesy of ethicsdaily.com. It was originally posted to the site July 6, 2007.

~~~

By Bob Allen

The Associated Press reported recently that three insurance companies receive upward of 260 reports each year of young people under 18 being sexually abused by Protestant clergy, challenging the assumption that clergy sexual abuse is an exclusively Catholic problem that does not take place in other churches.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on August 13, 2010, 07:38:21 PM
A little more perspective:

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/2004_02_CatholicLeague_SexualAbuse.htm

  
Quote
PRIESTS

According to a [2004] survey by the Washington Post, over the last four decades, less than 1.5 percent of the estimated 60,000 or more men who have served in the Catholic clergy have been accused of child sexual abuse.[iv]  According to a survey by the New York Times, 1.8 percent of all priests ordained from 1950 to 2001 have been accused of child sexual abuse.[v]  Thomas Kane, author of Priests are People Too, estimates that between 1 and 1.5 percent of priests have had charges made against them.[vi]  Of contemporary priests, the Associated Press found that approximately two-thirds of 1 percent of priests have charges pending against them.[vii]

That means that in forty to fifty years, out of 60,000 priests, there were slightly more than 900 men accused of some kind of abuse.  Not all of those who were accused were convicted.  Some of them were innocent.  Some of them were removed from the priesthood.  Some were not.

But the bottom line is that out of 60,000 men in a fifty year period, taking the long view, a little more than 900 men were accused of abuse in the United States, which translates to about 18 men per annum.

I hate to tell all y'all but that is a drip in the bucket by comparison to other figures of abuse from other segments of our society including the married pastors from other Christian organizations.  

So stashko may think he's got somethin' goin' on here with his grinning faces but my estimation of stashko is that he dislikes Catholics a whole lot more than he dislikes child abusers....

M.


The John Jay report (2004) says that there were reported 10,667 allegations against 4,392 priests between 1950 to 2002. ... 4,392 is four percent of the 109,694 priests in active ministry during that time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Jay_Report
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on August 13, 2010, 07:40:48 PM
stashko, the priest I referred to with the 4 kids is not bi-ritual.  He is ONLY Romanian Catholic.  (And in case that doesn't make you feel safe, he's also a convert from Orthodoxy.) :)
I don't think that E. Catholics priests in the USA are generally exempt from the celibacy rule. The exception is when a married E.O. priest converts to E. C. 
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: theistgal on August 13, 2010, 07:44:54 PM
That's right, so I'll repeat myself again (and again in peace) - this priest is ROMANIAN - as in from Romania .  OK?  (Good gravy, I just gave myself a headache!  Too early for vodka? :D )
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on August 13, 2010, 07:45:04 PM
A little more perspective:

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/2004_02_CatholicLeague_SexualAbuse.htm

  
Quote
PRIESTS

According to a [2004] survey by the Washington Post, over the last four decades, less than 1.5 percent of the estimated 60,000 or more men who have served in the Catholic clergy have been accused of child sexual abuse.[iv]  According to a survey by the New York Times, 1.8 percent of all priests ordained from 1950 to 2001 have been accused of child sexual abuse.[v]  Thomas Kane, author of Priests are People Too, estimates that between 1 and 1.5 percent of priests have had charges made against them.[vi]  Of contemporary priests, the Associated Press found that approximately two-thirds of 1 percent of priests have charges pending against them.[vii]

That means that in forty to fifty years, out of 60,000 priests, there were slightly more than 900 men accused of some kind of abuse.  Not all of those who were accused were convicted.  Some of them were innocent.  Some of them were removed from the priesthood.  Some were not.

But the bottom line is that out of 60,000 men in a fifty year period, taking the long view, a little more than 900 men were accused of abuse in the United States, which translates to about 18 men per annum.

I hate to tell all y'all but that is a drip in the bucket by comparison to other figures of abuse from other segments of our society including the married pastors from other Christian organizations.  

So stashko may think he's got somethin' goin' on here with his grinning faces but my estimation of stashko is that he dislikes Catholics a whole lot more than he dislikes child abusers....

M.


The RCC teaches that a Catholic priest is another Christ. As another Christ, a Catholic priest is expected to hold to a higher standeard than the average Joe. Further, my guess is that it is more traumatic for a boy to be raped by another Christ, than to be raped by an average Joe.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on August 13, 2010, 07:47:30 PM
That's right, so I'll repeat myself again (and again in peace) - this priest is ROMANIAN - as in from Romania .  OK?  (Good gravy, I just gave myself a headache!  Too early for vodka? :D )
I think that under Ceaucescu, the EC Churches were closed and many of the EC attended the EO Churches. After Ceaucescu, many of the former EC returned to EC as they opened some EC Chuches in romania.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 13, 2010, 07:48:51 PM
A little more perspective:

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/2004_02_CatholicLeague_SexualAbuse.htm

  
Quote
PRIESTS

According to a [2004] survey by the Washington Post, over the last four decades, less than 1.5 percent of the estimated 60,000 or more men who have served in the Catholic clergy have been accused of child sexual abuse.[iv]  According to a survey by the New York Times, 1.8 percent of all priests ordained from 1950 to 2001 have been accused of child sexual abuse.[v]  Thomas Kane, author of Priests are People Too, estimates that between 1 and 1.5 percent of priests have had charges made against them.[vi]  Of contemporary priests, the Associated Press found that approximately two-thirds of 1 percent of priests have charges pending against them.[vii]

That means that in forty to fifty years, out of 60,000 priests, there were slightly more than 900 men accused of some kind of abuse.  Not all of those who were accused were convicted.  Some of them were innocent.  Some of them were removed from the priesthood.  Some were not.

But the bottom line is that out of 60,000 men in a fifty year period, taking the long view, a little more than 900 men were accused of abuse in the United States, which translates to about 18 men per annum.

I hate to tell all y'all but that is a drip in the bucket by comparison to other figures of abuse from other segments of our society including the married pastors from other Christian organizations.  

So stashko may think he's got somethin' goin' on here with his grinning faces but my estimation of stashko is that he dislikes Catholics a whole lot more than he dislikes child abusers....

M.


The RCC teaches that a Catholic priest is another Christ. As another Christ, a Catholic priest is expected to hold to a higher standeard than the average Joe. Further, my guess is that it is more traumatic for a boy to be raped by another Christ, than to be raped by an average Joe.

My guess is that you've never been raped by either or you'd know just how truly ignorant that kind of guess work really is.

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on August 13, 2010, 07:57:37 PM
A little more perspective:

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/2004_02_CatholicLeague_SexualAbuse.htm

   
Quote
PRIESTS

According to a [2004] survey by the Washington Post, over the last four decades, less than 1.5 percent of the estimated 60,000 or more men who have served in the Catholic clergy have been accused of child sexual abuse.[iv]  According to a survey by the New York Times, 1.8 percent of all priests ordained from 1950 to 2001 have been accused of child sexual abuse.[v]  Thomas Kane, author of Priests are People Too, estimates that between 1 and 1.5 percent of priests have had charges made against them.[vi]  Of contemporary priests, the Associated Press found that approximately two-thirds of 1 percent of priests have charges pending against them.[vii]

That means that in forty to fifty years, out of 60,000 priests, there were slightly more than 900 men accused of some kind of abuse.  Not all of those who were accused were convicted.  Some of them were innocent.  Some of them were removed from the priesthood.  Some were not.

But the bottom line is that out of 60,000 men in a fifty year period, taking the long view, a little more than 900 men were accused of abuse in the United States, which translates to about 18 men per annum.

I hate to tell all y'all but that is a drip in the bucket by comparison to other figures of abuse from other segments of our society including the married pastors from other Christian organizations. 

So stashko may think he's got somethin' goin' on here with his grinning faces but my estimation of stashko is that he dislikes Catholics a whole lot more than he dislikes child abusers....

M.


The RCC teaches that a Catholic priest is another Christ. As another Christ, a Catholic priest is expected to hold to a higher standeard than the average Joe. Further, my guess is that it is more traumatic for a boy to be raped by another Christ, than to be raped by an average Joe.

My guess is that you've never been raped by either or you'd know just how truly ignorant that kind of guess work really is.

Mary
I can read the news and I can observe pictures on the front page of a weekly news  magazine featuring the faces of boys who had been raped by a RC priest and who subsequently committed suicide. 
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 13, 2010, 08:04:39 PM
A little more perspective:

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/2004_02_CatholicLeague_SexualAbuse.htm

  
Quote
PRIESTS

According to a [2004] survey by the Washington Post, over the last four decades, less than 1.5 percent of the estimated 60,000 or more men who have served in the Catholic clergy have been accused of child sexual abuse.[iv]  According to a survey by the New York Times, 1.8 percent of all priests ordained from 1950 to 2001 have been accused of child sexual abuse.[v]  Thomas Kane, author of Priests are People Too, estimates that between 1 and 1.5 percent of priests have had charges made against them.[vi]  Of contemporary priests, the Associated Press found that approximately two-thirds of 1 percent of priests have charges pending against them.[vii]

That means that in forty to fifty years, out of 60,000 priests, there were slightly more than 900 men accused of some kind of abuse.  Not all of those who were accused were convicted.  Some of them were innocent.  Some of them were removed from the priesthood.  Some were not.

But the bottom line is that out of 60,000 men in a fifty year period, taking the long view, a little more than 900 men were accused of abuse in the United States, which translates to about 18 men per annum.

I hate to tell all y'all but that is a drip in the bucket by comparison to other figures of abuse from other segments of our society including the married pastors from other Christian organizations.  

So stashko may think he's got somethin' goin' on here with his grinning faces but my estimation of stashko is that he dislikes Catholics a whole lot more than he dislikes child abusers....

M.


The RCC teaches that a Catholic priest is another Christ. As another Christ, a Catholic priest is expected to hold to a higher standeard than the average Joe. Further, my guess is that it is more traumatic for a boy to be raped by another Christ, than to be raped by an average Joe.

My guess is that you've never been raped by either or you'd know just how truly ignorant that kind of guess work really is.

Mary
I can read the news and I can observe the front page of Newsweek magazine featuring the faces of boys who had been raped by a RC priest and who subsequently committed suicide.  

I've known some of them personally...the living and the dead.  And I am telling you that your guess work here is repugnant and you arrogate to yourself an understanding that has little to do with the realities.

Yes.  ALL clergy have a particular responsibility to children and adolescents and adults that is only equaled by mothers and fathers.

What you are saying here would be like saying it would be better for me to be raped by my uncle than my father since my father has a particular relationship to me that my uncle does not have.

That kind of disconnected and disembodied emotionalism is just junk thinking. Trash talk, as my son would say.

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on August 13, 2010, 08:32:24 PM
A little more perspective:

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/2004_02_CatholicLeague_SexualAbuse.htm

  
Quote
PRIESTS

According to a [2004] survey by the Washington Post, over the last four decades, less than 1.5 percent of the estimated 60,000 or more men who have served in the Catholic clergy have been accused of child sexual abuse.[iv]  According to a survey by the New York Times, 1.8 percent of all priests ordained from 1950 to 2001 have been accused of child sexual abuse.[v]  Thomas Kane, author of Priests are People Too, estimates that between 1 and 1.5 percent of priests have had charges made against them.[vi]  Of contemporary priests, the Associated Press found that approximately two-thirds of 1 percent of priests have charges pending against them.[vii]

That means that in forty to fifty years, out of 60,000 priests, there were slightly more than 900 men accused of some kind of abuse.  Not all of those who were accused were convicted.  Some of them were innocent.  Some of them were removed from the priesthood.  Some were not.

But the bottom line is that out of 60,000 men in a fifty year period, taking the long view, a little more than 900 men were accused of abuse in the United States, which translates to about 18 men per annum.

I hate to tell all y'all but that is a drip in the bucket by comparison to other figures of abuse from other segments of our society including the married pastors from other Christian organizations.  

So stashko may think he's got somethin' goin' on here with his grinning faces but my estimation of stashko is that he dislikes Catholics a whole lot more than he dislikes child abusers....

M.


The RCC teaches that a Catholic priest is another Christ. As another Christ, a Catholic priest is expected to hold to a higher standeard than the average Joe. Further, my guess is that it is more traumatic for a boy to be raped by another Christ, than to be raped by an average Joe.

My guess is that you've never been raped by either or you'd know just how truly ignorant that kind of guess work really is.

Mary
I can read the news and I can observe the front page of Newsweek magazine featuring the faces of boys who had been raped by a RC priest and who subsequently committed suicide.  

I've known some of them personally...the living and the dead.  And I am telling you that your guess work here is repugnant and you arrogate to yourself an understanding that has little to do with the realities.

Yes.  ALL clergy have a particular responsibility to children and adolescents and adults that is only equaled by mothers and fathers.

What you are saying here would be like saying it would be better for me to be raped by my uncle than my father since my father has a particular relationship to me that my uncle does not have.

That kind of disconnected and disembodied emotionalism is just junk thinking. Trash talk, as my son would say.

Mary
The RCC teaches that the RC priest is another Christ.
As another Christ, the RC priest should be held to a higher standard of morality than the average Joe in the street.
Most people would not consider that to be trash talk, but rather a reasonable implication of what it means for a person to be another Christ.
Throwing up smokescreens in order to evade the obvious won't fool too many people.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 13, 2010, 09:02:24 PM
The RCC teaches that the RC priest is another Christ.
As another Christ, the RC priest should be held to a higher standard of morality than the average Joe in the street.
Most people would not consider that to be trash talk, but rather a reasonable implication of what it means for a person to be another Christ.
Throwing up smokescreens in order to evade the obvious won't fool too many people.

Society and individuals need to protect children from predators, not just from "other" Christs...You don't target "other" Christs...as you call them...to the exclusion of all other predators...pretending as you said earlier in your stupidity...that one rape is worse than another depending on whether or not the perp is an "other" Christ.

I agreed already that priests and any other clergy have a greater responsibility for their charges, just as parents to but it is absolutely asinine to suggest that rape by a priest is worse than rape by a father or an uncle or a friend's friend....which is what you did.

The fact that the responsibility for clergy abuse is greater does not take away from the fact that clergy are far less likely to rape their flock than a father is likely to rape his daughter.   Those are statistics...not some emotional third hand blather.   And married clergy are actually...statistically....more likely to rape one of their flock than a priest is likely to rape one of his.

So I ask you Mr. Catholic -of -the - Year....what is your point trying to tell me I am hiding something...YOU are hiding something and that is that predators are not JUST priests and priests are actually the least of it in terms of numbers....Hide that!!

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on August 13, 2010, 10:09:06 PM
I hate to tell all y'all but that is a drip in the bucket by comparison to other figures of abuse from other segments of our society including the married pastors from other Christian organizations.
Personally, I would not consider $3 billion dollars to be a drop in the bucket. And that is only the cost for the Catholic child abuse scandal in the USA, not counting any of the other countries. And as we all know by now, it is a global crisis.
My guess is that a widow trying to raise her four or five children without support from a father, would consider a tiny fraction of $3 billion dollars, say $50,000 to be a huge blessing for her and her family as they struggle to make ends meet on much less.
But no, let's hand out three billion dollars, with a large percentage of that going to the fat cat lawyers who have so many Mercedes, BMW's, and Lexus cars, that they don't know what to do with them. Let's make sure that the poor Catholic family has to shell out money every week so that these fat cat lawyers for the Church can slurp their $4 Starbucks blended frappucino while driving their luxury cars to one of their many lush  vacation retreats as they collect their exorbitant legal fees from this pot of three billion dollars as a result of the child abuse scandal in the USA.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hdducl7hQD0r8S2o6nYLmitBXR2w
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 13, 2010, 11:14:16 PM
So now I have to wonder if you are mad at those "other" Christs because they hurt children and youth or are you really mad because the "other" Christs are responsible for wasting your monetary contributions to the Church?

I must say you have had some very very strange things to say here.

What are you going to do when people catch on and start suing your local governments for protecting sexual predators?  Then your taxes will go to pay settlements or uberhigh insurance premiums.

In that case you won't have any "other" Christs to blame....eh? 

What will you do then?


I hate to tell all y'all but that is a drip in the bucket by comparison to other figures of abuse from other segments of our society including the married pastors from other Christian organizations.
Personally, I would not consider $3 billion dollars to be a drop in the bucket. And that is only the cost for the Catholic child abuse scandal in the USA, not counting any of the other countries. And as we all know by now, it is a global crisis.
My guess is that a widow trying to raise her four or five children without support from a father, would consider a tiny fraction of $3 billion dollars, say $50,000 to be a huge blessing for her and her family as they struggle to make ends meet on much less.
But no, let's hand out three billion dollars, with a large percentage of that going to the fat cat lawyers who have so many Mercedes, BMW's, and Lexus cars, that they don't know what to do with them. Let's make sure that the poor Catholic family has to shell out money every week so that these fat cat lawyers for the Church can slurp their $4 Starbucks blended frappucino while driving their luxury cars to one of their many lush  vacation retreats as they collect their exorbitant legal fees from this pot of three billion dollars as a result of the child abuse scandal in the USA.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hdducl7hQD0r8S2o6nYLmitBXR2w
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Irish Hermit on August 14, 2010, 12:08:18 AM
A little more perspective:

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/2004_02_CatholicLeague_SexualAbuse.htm

   
Quote
PRIESTS

According to a [2004] survey by the Washington Post, over the last four decades, less than 1.5 percent of the estimated 60,000 or more men who have served in the Catholic clergy have been accused of child sexual abuse.[iv]  According to a survey by the New York Times, 1.8 percent of all priests ordained from 1950 to 2001 have been accused of child sexual abuse.[v]  Thomas Kane, author of Priests are People Too, estimates that between 1 and 1.5 percent of priests have had charges made against them.[vi]  Of contemporary priests, the Associated Press found that approximately two-thirds of 1 percent of priests have charges pending against them.[vii]

That means that in forty to fifty years, out of 60,000 priests, there were slightly more than 900 men accused of some kind of abuse.  Not all of those who were accused were convicted.  Some of them were innocent.  Some of them were removed from the priesthood.  Some were not.

But the bottom line is that out of 60,000 men in a fifty year period, taking the long view, a little more than 900 men were accused of abuse in the United States, which translates to about 18 men per annum.

I hate to tell all y'all but that is a drip in the bucket by comparison to other figures of abuse from other segments of our society including the married pastors from other Christian organizations. 

So stashko may think he's got somethin' goin' on here with his grinning faces but my estimation of stashko is that he dislikes Catholics a whole lot more than he dislikes child abusers....

M.


The RCC teaches that a Catholic priest is another Christ. As another Christ, a Catholic priest is expected to hold to a higher standeard than the average Joe. Further, my guess is that it is more traumatic for a boy to be raped by another Christ, than to be raped by an average Joe.

My guess is that you've never been raped by either or you'd know just how truly ignorant that kind of guess work really is.

Mary

Good grief!   Surely you're not saying.....?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on August 14, 2010, 02:35:38 PM
So now I have to wonder if you are mad at those "other" Christs because they hurt children and youth or are you really mad because the "other" Christs are responsible for wasting your monetary contributions to the Church?
Both.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 14, 2010, 03:47:07 PM
So now I have to wonder if you are mad at those "other" Christs because they hurt children and youth or are you really mad because the "other" Christs are responsible for wasting your monetary contributions to the Church?
Both.

Then it would be good to hear you acknowledge that there is a MUCH MUCH larger problem out there that remains unaddressed while people are busy attacking the Catholic Church.

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on August 14, 2010, 07:15:47 PM
Then it would be good to hear you acknowledge that there is a MUCH MUCH larger problem out there that remains unaddressed while people are busy attacking the Catholic Church.

Mary
I try to follow the rules of the board: "For purposes of continuity and consistency, please keep ALL threads on target to their original purpose.  If you want to deviate, start a new thread."
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 14, 2010, 07:23:14 PM
Then it would be good to hear you acknowledge that there is a MUCH MUCH larger problem out there that remains unaddressed while people are busy attacking the Catholic Church.

Mary
I try to follow the rules of the board: "For purposes of continuity and consistency, please keep ALL threads on target to their original purpose.  If you want to deviate, start a new thread."


So you are telling me that you DARE NOT mention, in this thread, the fact that by comparison to other clergy and other segments of American society, American priests are, statistically, the LEAST likely of all known abusers to sexually abuse a child, or you will be in violation of Forum rules?

Amazing...truly astonishing logic...well...maybe not.

M.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on August 14, 2010, 07:59:59 PM
The statistics on abuse claims afainst the RCC are horrific. According to the Ontario Police, in 1990, there were 200 charges of assault against 30 Christian Brothers.
“I saw many young children beaten up and strapped. I saw Brother --- wake up young children and take them to a room to sexually assault them. I saw children handcuffed to a pillar in the basement. They would be pushed and kicked. I saw Brother --- use a pool table stick to hit children if they would not have anal sex with him. Children were given cold showers then strapped. If I told any Brothers that another Brother tried to have sex with me, I would be strapped."
http://www.religioustolerance.org/clergy_sex3.htm
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 14, 2010, 08:13:41 PM
You cannot provide data from the United States to refute what I have said about priests being LEAST likely to abuse a child or youth sexually.   It does not exist.

What you have provided here is an image of what the abuse looks like.  ALL abuse has elements of violence...physical and emotional.  ALL abuse depends, for its life, on secrecy and some kind of intimidation. There is no one picture for sexual abuse by "other" Christs that is vastly different from those non-Christ figures who abuse sexually.

Your image tells us how horrid ALL abuse is by showing one example.  

It tells us nothing of the numbers which is what I was talking about.  I've given you data collected from impartial sources...not just "images" of what it looks like and disembodied numbers that have no comparative value.




The statistics on abuse claims afainst the RCC are horrific. According to the Ontario Police, in 1990, there were 200 charges of assault against 30 Christian Brothers.
“I saw many young children beaten up and strapped. I saw Brother --- wake up young children and take them to a room to sexually assault them. I saw children handcuffed to a pillar in the basement. They would be pushed and kicked. I saw Brother --- use a pool table stick to hit children if they would not have anal sex with him. Children were given cold showers then strapped. If I told any Brothers that another Brother tried to have sex with me, I would be strapped."
http://www.religioustolerance.org/clergy_sex3.htm

Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on August 14, 2010, 08:30:47 PM
You cannot provide data from the United States to refute what I have said about priests being LEAST likely to abuse a child or youth sexually.   It does not exist.

What you have provided here is an image of what the abuse looks like.  ALL abuse has elements of violence...physical and emotional.  ALL abuse depends, for its life, on secrecy and some kind of intimidation. There is no one picture for sexual abuse by "other" Christs that is vastly different from those non-Christ figures who abuse sexually.

Your image tells us how horrid ALL abuse is by showing one example. 

It tells us nothing of the numbers which is what I was talking about.  I've given you data collected from impartial sources...not just "images" of what it looks like and disembodied numbers that have no comparative value.




The statistics on abuse claims afainst the RCC are horrific. According to the Ontario Police, in 1990, there were 200 charges of assault against 30 Christian Brothers.
“I saw many young children beaten up and strapped. I saw Brother --- wake up young children and take them to a room to sexually assault them. I saw children handcuffed to a pillar in the basement. They would be pushed and kicked. I saw Brother --- use a pool table stick to hit children if they would not have anal sex with him. Children were given cold showers then strapped. If I told any Brothers that another Brother tried to have sex with me, I would be strapped."
http://www.religioustolerance.org/clergy_sex3.htm

the statistics are available for anyone to see.
A. 200 charges of sexual assault against 30 Catholic Christian Brothers.
B. In the USA in 2007, there were 248,300 victims of sexual assault in a population of 300,000,000.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 14, 2010, 08:37:52 PM
You cannot provide data from the United States to refute what I have said about priests being LEAST likely to abuse a child or youth sexually.   It does not exist.

What you have provided here is an image of what the abuse looks like.  ALL abuse has elements of violence...physical and emotional.  ALL abuse depends, for its life, on secrecy and some kind of intimidation. There is no one picture for sexual abuse by "other" Christs that is vastly different from those non-Christ figures who abuse sexually.

Your image tells us how horrid ALL abuse is by showing one example. 

It tells us nothing of the numbers which is what I was talking about.  I've given you data collected from impartial sources...not just "images" of what it looks like and disembodied numbers that have no comparative value.




The statistics on abuse claims afainst the RCC are horrific. According to the Ontario Police, in 1990, there were 200 charges of assault against 30 Christian Brothers.
“I saw many young children beaten up and strapped. I saw Brother --- wake up young children and take them to a room to sexually assault them. I saw children handcuffed to a pillar in the basement. They would be pushed and kicked. I saw Brother --- use a pool table stick to hit children if they would not have anal sex with him. Children were given cold showers then strapped. If I told any Brothers that another Brother tried to have sex with me, I would be strapped."
http://www.religioustolerance.org/clergy_sex3.htm

the statistics are available for anyone to see.
A. 200 charges of sexual assault against 30 Catholic Christian Brothers.
B. In the USA in 2007, there were 248,300 victims of sexual assault in a population of 300,000,000.

Again....what I offered for the United States are comparative figures that indicate that Catholic priests are the LEAST likely to be active sexual predators.

When you can produce impartial comparative data that refutes the data I have presented then we can look at it, of course. 

Till then...

Mary
Title: Reporting Statistics
Post by: rakovsky on August 14, 2010, 10:56:37 PM
Statistics

the statistics are available for anyone to see.
A. 200 charges of sexual assault against 30 Catholic Christian Brothers.
B. In the USA in 2007, there were 248,300 victims of sexual assault in a population of 300,000,000.

248,300 divided by 300,000,000 is about a 0.8% abuse rate in the general population.

200 divided by the number of Catholic Christian Brothers in the USA gives the abuse rate for Catholic Christian Brothers.

Then you have to consider whether children abused in the Catholic Church are less likely to report sexual harassment than other people (adult men, women, children) abused in the general population.

Then you have to consider that sex assault of children is a subcategory of sex assault overall, so the percent of reported child sex assault in the general population is lower than .8%.

Qualitatively worse
The abuse that occurred 50 years ago was very much more worse qualitatively than in the general population. That is because the abuse took place in the context of strong regular corporal punishment. The view in Catholic Schools was that whipping children with canes or thick boards was a major good way to "deal" with kids' mistakes.

I have enough anecdotal evidence from elderly acquaintances that in northern states the whippings in Catholic schools were usually harder and more frequent than in public schools in the 1950's. The "brothers" and the children are already used to a physically abusive relationship and where the children are forced to physically submit and bend over for whippings. Sex abuse becomes worse and more likely to happen in this context as you saw with the straps, where disagreement meant more whippings.


Some private non-diocesan Catholic schools in Louisiana still whip children, and southern states' laws have Teacher Protection Acts to protect teachers who cause bruises, which often happens with caning, board whippings, and leather strappings.

Nowadays all diocesan Catholic schools recognize that whipping chidlren is wrong, and most northern states would consider whippings that cause bruises to be child abuse.

Elijah Maria, do you look fondly on good old-fashioned Catholic school discipline, or do you think that frequent physical abuse made sex abuse more violent?
Title: Re: Reporting Statistics
Post by: elijahmaria on August 14, 2010, 11:18:09 PM
the statistics are available for anyone to see.
A. 200 charges of sexual assault against 30 Catholic Christian Brothers.
B. In the USA in 2007, there were 248,300 victims of sexual assault in a population of 300,000,000.

248,300 divided by 300,000,000 is about a 0.8% abuse rate in the general population.

200 divided by the number of Catholic Christian Brothers in the USA gives the abuse rate for Catholic Christian Brothers.

Then you have to consider whether children abused in the Catholic Church are less likely to report sexual harassment than other people (adult men, women, children) abused in the general population.

Then you have to consider that sex assault of children is a subcategory of sex assault overall, so the percent of reported child sex assault in the general population is lower than .8%.



LOL...right.  Don't look at the studies based on real data...just toss up a few numbers and make up your own perameters...LOL

It isn't funny actually.

Those least likely to report abuse are children who are sexually abused by their parents...They are also the highest number of reported cases.

M.
Title: Re: Reporting Statistics
Post by: rakovsky on August 14, 2010, 11:27:23 PM
Those least likely to report abuse are children who are sexually abused by their parents...They are also the highest number of reported cases.
M.

A parent might abuse his/her 3 kids, but the reports in the institutions are of one brother abusing children systematically and the institution somehow not knowing of this or taking adequate preventive measures. Perhaps they tried to hush things up. I would rather have an organization be criticized for so-called "proportionate" abuse and on the lookout for it than one that allows abuse or tries to hide it while people mistakenly think its a place of safety for their kids when it is no different than letting your kids be with a random celibate stranger "from the statistical general population." And creeping behind this are reports that we hear about the seminaries.

We should expect better for our kids under their care, not worse.

Please answer the question in the previous post, thanks.
Title: Re: Reporting Statistics
Post by: elijahmaria on August 15, 2010, 09:27:09 AM
Those least likely to report abuse are children who are sexually abused by their parents...They are also the highest number of reported cases.
M.

A parent might abuse his/her 3 kids, but the reports in the institutions are of one brother abusing children systematically and the institution somehow not knowing of this or taking adequate preventive measures. Perhaps they tried to hush things up. I would rather have an organization be criticized for so-called "proportionate" abuse and on the lookout for it than one that allows abuse or tries to hide it while people mistakenly think its a place of safety for their kids when it is no different than letting your kids be with a random celibate stranger "from the statistical general population." And creeping behind this are reports that we hear about the seminaries.

We should expect better for our kids under their care, not worse.

Please answer the question in the previous post, thanks.

I know a case of an eastern Catholic priest, never reported in the press, who either tied or handcuffed two boys to a metal bed and raped them repeatedly.  One of the boys committed suicide later in life.

Do I think the man in question was beaten in Catholic school?

No.  I don't.

I went to Catholic school in the 1950's and nobody was beaten.

I am sorry that others were.

I have been beaten.  I am not a hitter because of it and it did not leave me with a hyperactive libido.

I think you are looking for bed bugs where there are no bed bugs but in doing so you miss the giant dung beetles that ARE there and need to be put in more appropriate places.

So I am getting from you here that we can't help those children who are raped repeatedly in their own family units, who are the preponderance of cases, so we will place inordinate attention on one group of abusers that we love to hate....well...OK.

But for someone like myself I must say that attitude disgusts me.

Mary
Title: Re: Reporting Statistics
Post by: Irish Hermit on August 15, 2010, 09:36:35 AM

so we will place inordinate attention on one group of abusers that we love to hate....well...OK.

I think this accusation shows that you are out of touch with the reality of it.  I had a meal this evening with two friends out from Ireland, a publican and a school teacher, and as you know, Ireland has been literally through hell over the last 12 months with the governmental reports on the wide spread child abuse by Roman Catholic clergy.

Now, these people do not "hate" this group of abusers.  They feel profound pain for them and for their victims.  And when I asked the overall feeling in Ireland, they replied that it was the same as theirs.  Grief and more grief, but certainly not hatred for the abusers.

I think that your scenario about hatred is one within your own head.
Title: Re: Reporting Statistics
Post by: elijahmaria on August 15, 2010, 10:03:51 AM

so we will place inordinate attention on one group of abusers that we love to hate....well...OK.

I think this accusation shows that you are out of touch with the reality of it.  I had a meal this evening with two friends out from Ireland, a publican and a school teacher, and as you know, Ireland has been literally through hell over the last 12 months with the governmental reports on the wide spread child abuse by Roman Catholic clergy.

Now, these people do not "hate" this group of abusers.  They feel profound pain for them and for their victims.  And when I asked the overall feeling in Ireland, they replied that it was the same as theirs.  Grief and more grief, but certainly not hatred for the abusers.

I think that your scenario about hatred is one within your own head.

Oh that's not MY issue Father.  It's quite a good point to make but I am basing what I said on a refusal to see reality.  You are talking about people who are looking square at reality and have the proper attitude toward victim and sinner. 

Now you are pretending that I say that people like that hate Catholic priests more than they hate the acts...well I would never say that about people who speak as those you describe here.  My guess is that they don't shy away from reality.

Well you cannot compare a real statement based on a an immediate conversation with a pretend and guesstimated reaction to something that is entirely different in content.

Well actually you can because you just did...and that is more indicative of your needs than it is indicative of anything I am saying here about any of this.

Mary
Title: Re: Reporting Statistics
Post by: Irish Hermit on August 15, 2010, 10:36:35 AM

so we will place inordinate attention on one group of abusers that we love to hate....well...OK.

I think this accusation shows that you are out of touch with the reality of it.  I had a meal this evening with two friends out from Ireland, a publican and a school teacher, and as you know, Ireland has been literally through hell over the last 12 months with the governmental reports on the wide spread child abuse by Roman Catholic clergy.

Now, these people do not "hate" this group of abusers.  They feel profound pain for them and for their victims.  And when I asked the overall feeling in Ireland, they replied that it was the same as theirs.  Grief and more grief, but certainly not hatred for the abusers.

I think that your scenario about hatred is one within your own head.

Oh that's not MY issue Father.  It's quite a good point to make but I am basing what I said on a refusal to see reality.  You are talking about people who are looking square at reality and have the proper attitude toward victim and sinner. 

Now you are pretending that I say that people like that hate Catholic priests more than they hate the acts...well I would never say that about people who speak as those you describe here.  My guess is that they don't shy away from reality.

Well you cannot compare a real statement based on a an immediate conversation with a pretend and guesstimated reaction to something that is entirely different in content.

Well actually you can because you just did...and that is more indicative of your needs than it is indicative of anything I am saying here about any of this.

My needs?!  Would you explain to me and to the forum what you perceive as my needs?   Your use of ad hominem is getting rather frequent.
Title: Re: Reporting Statistics
Post by: elijahmaria on August 15, 2010, 10:42:23 AM

so we will place inordinate attention on one group of abusers that we love to hate....well...OK.

I think this accusation shows that you are out of touch with the reality of it.  I had a meal this evening with two friends out from Ireland, a publican and a school teacher, and as you know, Ireland has been literally through hell over the last 12 months with the governmental reports on the wide spread child abuse by Roman Catholic clergy.

Now, these people do not "hate" this group of abusers.  They feel profound pain for them and for their victims.  And when I asked the overall feeling in Ireland, they replied that it was the same as theirs.  Grief and more grief, but certainly not hatred for the abusers.

I think that your scenario about hatred is one within your own head.

Oh that's not MY issue Father.  It's quite a good point to make but I am basing what I said on a refusal to see reality.  You are talking about people who are looking square at reality and have the proper attitude toward victim and sinner. 

Now you are pretending that I say that people like that hate Catholic priests more than they hate the acts...well I would never say that about people who speak as those you describe here.  My guess is that they don't shy away from reality.

Well you cannot compare a real statement based on a an immediate conversation with a pretend and guesstimated reaction to something that is entirely different in content.

Well actually you can because you just did...and that is more indicative of your needs than it is indicative of anything I am saying here about any of this.

My needs?!  Would you explain to me and to the forum what you perceive as my needs?   Your use of ad hominem is getting rather frequent.

Your tone with me and the lengths that you go to twist my messages into something that they are not seems to me to indicate some kind of need that you have to do that...because it is endless...

I don't like it.  I think it is intellectually dishonest among other things. 

Do I have no right to say that?  or to defend my messages against your unwarranted distortions?

Are you trying to stir up hostility against me with your note here?  It would appear so to me.

Have fun!!

Mary

Title: Re: Reporting Statistics
Post by: stanley123 on August 15, 2010, 06:48:37 PM
Statistics

the statistics are available for anyone to see.
A. 200 charges of sexual assault against 30 Catholic Christian Brothers.
B. In the USA in 2007, there were 248,300 victims of sexual assault in a population of 300,000,000.

248,300 divided by 300,000,000 is about a 0.8% abuse rate in the general population.
It is actually a whole lot less by ten times. It is a 0.08 % abuse rate in the general population. How does that compare with 200 charges of sexual assault against 30 Catholic Christian Brothers?
BTW, all this emphasis on statistics is a smokescreen designed to distract people's attention and emotions away from the horrific, perverted, ugly child abuse which has gone on as a witness has described it as quoted above.
Title: Re: Reporting Statistics
Post by: stanley123 on August 15, 2010, 06:54:12 PM
I know a case of an eastern Catholic priest, never reported in the press, who either tied or handcuffed two boys to a metal bed and raped them repeatedly.  One of the boys committed suicide later in life.

How many more unreported cases of these rapes of children, and subsequent suicides have not been reported? This is truly horrific and perverted. If the Catholic authorities do nothing in cases like this, should they not be subject to some sort of reprimand?
Title: Re: Reporting Statistics
Post by: elijahmaria on August 15, 2010, 07:22:25 PM
I know a case of an eastern Catholic priest, never reported in the press, who either tied or handcuffed two boys to a metal bed and raped them repeatedly.  One of the boys committed suicide later in life.

How many more unreported cases of these rapes of children, and subsequent suicides have not been reported? This is truly horrific and perverted. If the Catholic authorities do nothing in cases like this, should they not be subject to some sort of reprimand?

Did you read what I wrote?...  I wrote very specifically that the situation was not widely reported in the press.  I did not say that the situation was never reported to the authorities.

M.

Title: Re: Reporting Statistics
Post by: stashko on August 15, 2010, 07:36:25 PM
Didn't  cardinal Law ,allow this evil to happen for yrs ,by transferring them around the country or even possably around the world .....Didn't he escape U S prosecution,fled to the Vatican and the Pope Rewarded him With Much Better Position....
Vatican doesn't seem Care about the Innocent even catholics think this ,only to Protect it's own reputation and didn't do much  about it , just wanted to keep it hush hush......Shameful it is....I Thank God That It's Finally in the open ,Now they can work on the Remedy cure..... >:( I still say that returning to Holy Orthodoxy  is the cure...Please Note! without the pope, we can do without him:police:
Title: Re: Reporting Statistics
Post by: elijahmaria on August 15, 2010, 07:41:52 PM

Didn't  cardinal Law ,allow this evil to happen for yrs ,by transferring them around the country or even possably around the world .....Didn't he escape U S prosecution,fled to the Vatican and the Pope Rewarded him With Much Better Position....
Vatican doesn't seem Care about the Innocent even catholics think this ,only to Protect it's own reputation and didn't do much  about it , just wanted to keep it hush hush......Shameful it is....I Thank God That It's Finally in the open ,Now they can work on the Remedy cure..... >:( I still say that returning to Holy Orthodoxy  is the cure... :police:

Not quite that simple, Stash....but if it makes you feel good to say so...

Also there's no need for any Catholic to leave the Church in order to return to the faith.  All one need do is pick up and move forward away from sin toward God, with full use of the sacraments and liturgies and prayer.

Thanks for thinkin' of us though....

M.
Title: Re: Reporting Statistics
Post by: stanley123 on August 16, 2010, 12:51:17 AM
Didn't  cardinal Law ,allow this evil to happen for yrs ,by transferring them around the country or even possably around the world .....Didn't he escape U S prosecution,fled to the Vatican and the Pope Rewarded him With Much Better Position....

These transfers seem very problematical to me.
Title: Re: Reporting Statistics
Post by: rakovsky on August 16, 2010, 01:40:23 AM
I know a case of an eastern Catholic priest, never reported in the press, who either tied or handcuffed two boys to a metal bed and raped them repeatedly.  One of the boys committed suicide later in life.

Do I think the man in question was beaten in Catholic school?

No.  I don't.
And your basis for believing that someone, who grew up at a time when Catholic school corporal punishment was frequent and hard, was never beaten is ... ?

By the way, that is an awful story!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote
I went to Catholic school in the 1950's and nobody was beaten.

What planet was this school on? New Jersey?

Quote
I have been beaten.  I am not a hitter because of it.
I am sorry that you were hit, and I'm sorry I misunderstood you saying on another thread that you were in favor of corporal punishment.
Title: Re: Reporting Statistics
Post by: elijahmaria on August 16, 2010, 10:16:06 AM
I know a case of an eastern Catholic priest, never reported in the press, who either tied or handcuffed two boys to a metal bed and raped them repeatedly.  One of the boys committed suicide later in life.

Do I think the man in question was beaten in Catholic school?

No.  I don't.
And your basis for believing that someone, who grew up at a time when Catholic school corporal punishment was frequent and hard, was never beaten is ... ?

By the way, that is an awful story!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote
I went to Catholic school in the 1950's and nobody was beaten.

What planet was this school on? New Jersey?

Quote
I have been beaten.  I am not a hitter because of it.
I am sorry that you were hit, and I'm sorry I misunderstood you saying on another thread that you were in favor of corporal punishment.

No.  Hear me.  I have not been hit.  I have been beaten.  Broken, bruised and bloodied.  So there is very little in all of this that I cannot address first hand.  That is why you have such a difficult time trying to figure it all out here.  But I've been there in terms of experience, and I see what the outraged bystanders are doing and from what I can see most of the most "outraged" never experienced the real thing in all of its horror and in all of its emotional complexity. 

It is not easy to heal from but without spiritual healing, one can wind up in a PTS nightmare of experimental drugs and failed lives.  So I get exceptionally angry with those whose goal it is to destroy the very heart of healing for us which is the Church.  At this point I really don't give a damn about what you think of my Church.  It is the source of all my healing.  And the source of real healing for many others who have the sense to use her gifts that way, and the graces she mediates.

You all talk about the hospital.  I am IN it!!

Catholic schools were not hotbeds of broken bodies.  I'm sorry.  That is a myth and there are millions of others like myself who will tell you their experience in Catholic school was as good or better than public schools.  I was there and there was no comparison.  Public School was a zoo and they beat the crap out of some people and teaches poked their fingers in girls in the bookclosets.

Sometimes the blind attitudes of the disinterested parties in the world do FAR more harm than good.

Save your outrage.  Find a wounded soul and take them to the hospital for souls.

M.

Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: Schultz on August 16, 2010, 10:38:13 AM


This is getting heated, as is to be expected. Everyone PLEASE take a moment to read what you are about to post before hitting the Post button.  When you've done that, do it again.  A third time probably wouldn't hurt.

Please remember to keep things civil and, when in doubt, err on the side of extreme caution.

Words on the internet are forever.



Schultz.
Orthodox-Catholic Discussion moderator.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on August 25, 2010, 01:35:48 AM
Catholic priest charged with rape of 14-year-old

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100824/ap_on_re_eu/eu_germany_church_abuse
Tue Aug 24, 7:11 am ET
BERLIN – German prosecutors say a Roman Catholic priest has been charged with twice raping a 14-year-old girl 20 years ago.

Osnabrueck prosecution spokesman Alexander Retemeyer said on Tuesday the 50-year old man, then a chaplain, used force to coerce the girl into having sex with him and also threatened her with punishment by God.

Prosecutors say the priest, who has been relieved of his duties by the church, has admitted sexual contacts with the girl.


Edited to be OK with the new forum policy (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13455.msg456852.html#msg456852) - mike.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on August 25, 2010, 04:05:37 AM
Catholic priest charged with rape of 14-year-old

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100824/ap_on_re_eu/eu_germany_church_abuse
Tue Aug 24, 7:11 am ET
BERLIN – German prosecutors say a Roman Catholic priest has been charged with twice raping a 14-year-old girl 20 years ago.

Osnabrueck prosecution spokesman Alexander Retemeyer said on Tuesday the 50-year old man, then a chaplain, used force to coerce the girl into having sex with him and also threatened her with punishment by God.

Prosecutors say the priest, who has been relieved of his duties by the church, has admitted sexual contacts with the girl.


Edited to be OK with the new forum policy (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13455.msg456852.html#msg456852) - mike.

It just continues to get worse.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: sprtslvr1973 on August 25, 2010, 07:10:00 AM
Oh no you don't, Mary.  We're not discussing our own anecdotal experiences.  And I don't play "blame the victim, forgive the abuser" games either.  Anyone who molests a child deserves to be punished.

 :laugh:  I see.

We do not agree at all on the fine points.  I don't even think you have a fine point to use in this discussion from what you are saying here.

Not to worry.  My opinions are inconsequential, I am not in charge of much of anything but my own life and that is quite enough.

I would like to ask why "forgive the abuser" is linked to "blame the victim"?   From what I can see they are not necessarily related.  They may be but they are not contingent.

M.

I've never forgotten the day in Religious Studies class decades ago when Fr Bennet proclaimed:  "Men, the human race is a contingent creation.  There was no need for God to create us.  Since He knows everything in advance He would never have created us if the great majority of us were going to go to the eternal fires of Hell.  Pay no attention to the people who tell you most of the us are destined for hell.  They have no idea of what they speak.   Tell them that the very contingency of the human race utterly precludes that and the idea imputes evil to God Himselfl"

Most of us actually sat up, took notice, and wrote it down!

The sweet sound of Origenism echoes down the age.  He was a brilliant brilliant theological mind, yet stained with the taint of heresy, much to my undying regret.

Try it on a hell fire and thunder street preacher....

Does God know everything?

....Yes.

Is the human race contingent?

....Yes.

Would God have created men if He knew that the great majority of us was going to spend eternity in the torments of hell fire?

Unless the man is the most committed of Calvinists he is bound to say, No.


Quote
What does this have to do with earthly management of sexual abuse and abusers?

When the decadent and debauched "Christian" West is conquered by Dar al-Islam, Sharia will take care of such people.  Our own institutions have become too effete to manage this evil.

Yer all heart, ducks.

What do you do with the abused who love their abuser?

Cut their heads off too?...well...actually, in the world you describe here...they do.

M.

Imagine the benefits of dhimmitude.  After the initial rough time of enforcement it will be so much better.   No liquor stores to fuel the criminals and the youth for their crimes.   No massage parlours,  no pornography, no Gay Pride marches, no abortion factories.  The Muslims will give us the public morality which Christianity has not been able to achieve.

I would rather be dead than a dhimmi. In fact, if faced with the possibility of dhimmitude, I'd say that's grounds for civil war maybe.

A decadent ungodly society leads the Elect to reject the emptiness of the world and seek God. All a repressive regime under the guise of religion offers is slavery for infidels and a ruling class to be allowed to conduct any physical or sexual abuse it wants.

To Hell with Radical Islam (where it came from!!!!)
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on August 25, 2010, 08:20:29 AM
Catholic priest charged with rape of 14-year-old

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100824/ap_on_re_eu/eu_germany_church_abuse
Tue Aug 24, 7:11 am ET
BERLIN – German prosecutors say a Roman Catholic priest has been charged with twice raping a 14-year-old girl 20 years ago.

Osnabrueck prosecution spokesman Alexander Retemeyer said on Tuesday the 50-year old man, then a chaplain, used force to coerce the girl into having sex with him and also threatened her with punishment by God.

Prosecutors say the priest, who has been relieved of his duties by the church, has admitted sexual contacts with the girl.

Edited to be OK with the new forum policy (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13455.msg456852.html#msg456852) - mike.

It just continues to get worse.

Sad  But Very True......Rome Vatican is Going to Have to Learn  I guess ,From The School Of Hard Knocks once its immunity is taken away eventually ,if this evil is allowed or ignored and gets worse......... ;D
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: elijahmaria on August 25, 2010, 03:01:14 PM
Catholic priest charged with rape of 14-year-old

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100824/ap_on_re_eu/eu_germany_church_abuse
Tue Aug 24, 7:11 am ET
BERLIN – German prosecutors say a Roman Catholic priest has been charged with twice raping a 14-year-old girl 20 years ago.

Osnabrueck prosecution spokesman Alexander Retemeyer said on Tuesday the 50-year old man, then a chaplain, used force to coerce the girl into having sex with him and also threatened her with punishment by God.

Prosecutors say the priest, who has been relieved of his duties by the church, has admitted sexual contacts with the girl.

Edited to be OK with the new forum policy (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13455.msg456852.html#msg456852) - mike.

It just continues to get worse.

Sad  But Very True......Rome Vatican is Going to Have to Learn  I guess ,From The School Of Hard Knocks once its immunity is taken away eventually ,if this evil is allowed or ignored and gets worse......... ;D

I want to see that little grin when Orthodoxy is treated like a civil organization after the precedent is set in Rome.  I want to stand in front of you and watch it melt off your face and hear you wail that it is not right....  ;D

And Orthodoxy is not immune to sexual perversion and those who perpetuate it.  So it is not at all wise to gloat.

Mary
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on August 25, 2010, 05:12:58 PM
Catholic priest charged with rape of 14-year-old

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100824/ap_on_re_eu/eu_germany_church_abuse
Tue Aug 24, 7:11 am ET
BERLIN – German prosecutors say a Roman Catholic priest has been charged with twice raping a 14-year-old girl 20 years ago.

Osnabrueck prosecution spokesman Alexander Retemeyer said on Tuesday the 50-year old man, then a chaplain, used force to coerce the girl into having sex with him and also threatened her with punishment by God.

Prosecutors say the priest, who has been relieved of his duties by the church, has admitted sexual contacts with the girl.

Edited to be OK with the new forum policy (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13455.msg456852.html#msg456852) - mike.

It just continues to get worse.

Sad  But Very True......Rome Vatican is Going to Have to Learn  I guess ,From The School Of Hard Knocks once its immunity is taken away eventually ,if this evil is allowed or ignored and gets worse......... ;D
It might be a good idea to rethink and make more severe the punishment for such crimes. Would the death penalty be in order?
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on August 25, 2010, 05:19:23 PM
Catholic priest charged with rape of 14-year-old

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100824/ap_on_re_eu/eu_germany_church_abuse
Tue Aug 24, 7:11 am ET
BERLIN – German prosecutors say a Roman Catholic priest has been charged with twice raping a 14-year-old girl 20 years ago.

Osnabrueck prosecution spokesman Alexander Retemeyer said on Tuesday the 50-year old man, then a chaplain, used force to coerce the girl into having sex with him and also threatened her with punishment by God.

Prosecutors say the priest, who has been relieved of his duties by the church, has admitted sexual contacts with the girl.

Edited to be OK with the new forum policy (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13455.msg456852.html#msg456852) - mike.

It just continues to get worse.

Sad  But Very True......Rome Vatican is Going to Have to Learn  I guess ,From The School Of Hard Knocks once its immunity is taken away eventually ,if this evil is allowed or ignored and gets worse......... ;D
It might be a good idea to rethink and make more severe the punishment for such crimes. Would the death penalty be in order?

I really don't desire the death of anyone ,a long as one is alive one can come to repentance, but serving as clergy absolutly not.....Children have to be a priority...
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stanley123 on August 25, 2010, 05:25:13 PM
Catholic priest charged with rape of 14-year-old

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100824/ap_on_re_eu/eu_germany_church_abuse
Tue Aug 24, 7:11 am ET
BERLIN – German prosecutors say a Roman Catholic priest has been charged with twice raping a 14-year-old girl 20 years ago.

Osnabrueck prosecution spokesman Alexander Retemeyer said on Tuesday the 50-year old man, then a chaplain, used force to coerce the girl into having sex with him and also threatened her with punishment by God.

Prosecutors say the priest, who has been relieved of his duties by the church, has admitted sexual contacts with the girl.

Edited to be OK with the new forum policy (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13455.msg456852.html#msg456852) - mike.

It just continues to get worse.

Sad  But Very True......Rome Vatican is Going to Have to Learn  I guess ,From The School Of Hard Knocks once its immunity is taken away eventually ,if this evil is allowed or ignored and gets worse......... ;D
It might be a good idea to rethink and make more severe the punishment for such crimes. Would the death penalty be in order?

I really don't desire the death of anyone ,a long as one is alive one can come to repentance, but serving as clergy absolutly not.....Children have to be a priority...
Ok. How about life imprisonment at hard and forced labor with no possibility of parole?
A child's life has been ruined. This crime must be punished severely to let the criminal know that society will not accept these perverted acts on children.
Title: Re: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe
Post by: stashko on August 25, 2010, 05:36:28 PM
Catholic priest charged with rape of 14-year-old

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100824/ap_on_re_eu/eu_germany_church_abuse
Tue Aug 24, 7:11 am ET
BERLIN – German prosecutors say a Roman Catholic priest has been charged with twice raping a 14-year-old girl 20 years ago.

Osnabrueck prosecution spokesman Alexander Retemeyer said on Tuesday the 50-year old man, then a chaplain, used force to coerce the girl into having sex with him and also threatened her with punishment by God.

Prosecutors say the priest, who has been relieved of his duties by the church, has admitted sexual contacts with the girl.

Edited to be OK with the new forum policy (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13455.msg456852.html#msg456852) - mike.

It just continues to get worse.

Sad  But Very True......Rome Vatican is Going to Have to Learn  I guess ,From The School Of Hard Knocks once its immunity is taken away eventually ,if this evil is allowed or ignored and gets worse......... ;D

I want to see that little grin when Orthodoxy is treated like a civil organization after the precedent is set in Rome.  I want to stand in front of you and watch it melt off your face and hear you wail that it is not right....  ;D

And Orthodoxy is not immune to sexual perversion and those who perpetuate it.  So it is not at all wise to gloat.

Mary
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