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Moderated Forums => Free-For-All => Religious Topics => Topic started by: Robb on February 21, 2010, 02:38:12 AM

Title: Do Ukrainians believe in Toll Houses?
Post by: Robb on February 21, 2010, 02:38:12 AM
I'd like to ask some of my Ukrainian friends if it's common for Ukrainians to believe in Toll Houses or an intermediary state after death?  I figure that, since the Ukrainians feel  a lot closer to Constantinople then Moscow (historically) then they would be more inclined to believe in the intermediary state as opposed to the Russian Toll House beliefs.  By Ukrainians, I don't just mean the official position of one of the Ukrainian Churches but that which the simple folk in the pews tend to believe in.

Also, what about the Carpatho Russians?

Just wondering.
Title: Re: Do Ukrainians believe in Toll Houses?
Post by: Iconodule on February 21, 2010, 08:16:44 PM
There's nothing particularly Russian about this teaching. You'll hear it from many Greek sources as well, such as Metropolitan Hierotheos (Vlachos) and Elder Ephraim.
Title: Re: Do Ukrainians believe in Toll Houses?
Post by: HandmaidenofGod on February 21, 2010, 09:53:45 PM
I've honestly never heard it discussed at my parish.

The only "Toll House" I'm concerned with has the word "Nestle" in front of it and "Cookies" after it!  :laugh:

(http://www.nestleprofessional.com/united-states/en/BrandsAndProducts/Brands/NESTLE_TOLLHOUSE/PublishingImages/TH_CookiePull_IMG.jpg)
Title: Re: Do Ukrainians believe in Toll Houses?
Post by: ChristusDominus on February 21, 2010, 09:57:42 PM
How did this "Toll Houses" theory come about anyway?
Title: Re: Do Ukrainians believe in Toll Houses?
Post by: HandmaidenofGod on February 21, 2010, 09:57:55 PM
As a side note, I've honestly never heard toll houses or many of the things discussed here on the 'net discussed in parishes. (Over the years I've been a member of UOC, OCA, and GOA parishes.)

At Coffee Hour, people don't discuss theologoumenons, they discuss things like how to make the best babka or perogie recipes, or in Greek parishes, the best baklava.

Bible Studies and Adult Education classes or usually more focused on the principles of the faith than stuff like this.

It's just not something people worry about, nor should they, since there's no way to prove or disprove the theory.

Title: Re: Do Ukrainians believe in Toll Houses?
Post by: Get_Behind_Me_Satan on February 22, 2010, 12:14:43 AM
I've honestly never heard it discussed at my parish.

The only "Toll House" I'm concerned with has the word "Nestle" in front of it and "Cookies" after it!  :laugh:

(http://www.nestleprofessional.com/united-states/en/BrandsAndProducts/Brands/NESTLE_TOLLHOUSE/PublishingImages/TH_CookiePull_IMG.jpg)



Man, you really should read St Maximus the Confessor.

Listen to this blessed man, his words are more precious than rubies:

12. Let us build on the Lord, as though on a foundation of faith, with gold, silver and precious stones, raising a
temple of holiness (cf. 1 Cor. 3:12). Let us build, that is to say, with pure undebased theology, with a way of life
that is lucid and radiant, with divine thoughts and conceptual images more precious than jewels. Let us not use
wood, hay or stubble, that is, idolatry - which is a passionate desire for sensible things - or a meaningless way of
life, or thoughts which are impassioned and as empty of wise understanding as straw.

St Maximos the Confessor Two Hundred Texts on Theology and theIncarnate Dispensation of the Son of God

Title: Re: Do Ukrainians believe in Toll Houses?
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on February 22, 2010, 01:17:01 AM
I've honestly never heard it discussed at my parish.

The only "Toll House" I'm concerned with has the word "Nestle" in front of it and "Cookies" after it!  :laugh:

(http://www.nestleprofessional.com/united-states/en/BrandsAndProducts/Brands/NESTLE_TOLLHOUSE/PublishingImages/TH_CookiePull_IMG.jpg)

Hey, get your own material!

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,2145.msg316872.html#msg316872
Title: Re: Do Ukrainians believe in Toll Houses?
Post by: Irish Hermit on February 22, 2010, 01:30:55 AM
I'd like to ask some of my Ukrainian friends if it's common for Ukrainians to believe in Toll Houses

Metropolitan Anthony was the Metropolitan of Kiev.   He was also among the best of the Russian Church's theologians and after the Revolution he became the First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

Asked his opinion about the toll houses, he replied, "The toll houses?  Something the village people might believe in."
Title: Re: Do Ukrainians believe in Toll Houses?
Post by: deusveritasest on February 22, 2010, 01:32:59 AM
I've honestly never heard it discussed at my parish.

The only "Toll House" I'm concerned with has the word "Nestle" in front of it and "Cookies" after it!  :laugh:

(http://www.nestleprofessional.com/united-states/en/BrandsAndProducts/Brands/NESTLE_TOLLHOUSE/PublishingImages/TH_CookiePull_IMG.jpg)



Man, you really should read St Maximus the Confessor.

Listen to this blessed man, his words are more precious than rubies:

12. Let us build on the Lord, as though on a foundation of faith, with gold, silver and precious stones, raising a
temple of holiness (cf. 1 Cor. 3:12). Let us build, that is to say, with pure undebased theology, with a way of life
that is lucid and radiant, with divine thoughts and conceptual images more precious than jewels. Let us not use
wood, hay or stubble, that is, idolatry - which is a passionate desire for sensible things - or a meaningless way of
life, or thoughts which are impassioned and as empty of wise understanding as straw.

St Maximos the Confessor Two Hundred Texts on Theology and theIncarnate Dispensation of the Son of God



What is the relevance?
Title: Re: Do Ukrainians believe in Toll Houses?
Post by: augustin717 on February 22, 2010, 01:34:38 AM
They appear in the Romanian folklore,as well, in carols especially and the traditions/folk rituals surrounding burials.
Title: Re: Do Ukrainians believe in Toll Houses?
Post by: Iconodule on February 22, 2010, 10:17:08 AM
Some very learned teachers of the Church have accepted some version of toll-houses, so I would dispute the claim that it's only for "village people". I think the main thing is not to take it too literally.
Title: Re: Do Ukrainians believe in Toll Houses?
Post by: IreneOlinyk on March 17, 2010, 10:09:47 PM
I'd like to ask some of my Ukrainian friends if it's common for Ukrainians to believe in Toll Houses or an intermediary state after death?  I figure that, since the Ukrainians feel  a lot closer to Constantinople then Moscow (historically) then they would be more inclined to believe in the intermediary state as opposed to the Russian Toll House beliefs.  By Ukrainians, I don't just mean the official position of one of the Ukrainian Churches but that which the simple folk in the pews tend to believe in.

Also, what about the Carpatho Russians?

Just wondering.

The simple answer is no.
Title: Re: Do Ukrainians believe in Toll Houses?
Post by: tableserver on March 17, 2010, 10:44:50 PM
Our UOC of USA priest did a lecture on Toll Houses last year and most of the people had never head of it before.
Title: Re: Do Ukrainians believe in Toll Houses?
Post by: Heorhij on March 18, 2010, 08:45:26 AM
I am a Ukrainian and, honestly, I never gave much (or any) thought about toll houses. Just very recently, I read about them on a Russian Orthodox Web site, but there is a whole lot of information there, and it does not say clearly whether it's an official belief of the Church or not.
Title: Re: Do Ukrainians believe in Toll Houses?
Post by: podkarpatska on March 18, 2010, 11:53:49 AM
Never heard of them among the Carpatho-Russians, Rusyns etc... from either the 'old-timers' like my long departed grandparents and their peers or at Church, locally or Diocesan.
Title: Re: Do Ukrainians believe in Toll Houses?
Post by: Rosehip on March 18, 2010, 01:32:49 PM
I've never heard a word about tollhouses from any of my Ukrainian friends. Usually it's the Russians, or English-speaking ROCOR converts who tend to believe in it, from my limited experience anyhow. I've heard a couple ROCOR priests casually mentioning the tollhouses as if they were real, but I just gasped inwardly and held my peace...
Title: Re: Do Ukrainians believe in Toll Houses?
Post by: yochanan on March 18, 2010, 09:04:21 PM
Toll-house gate theory is just a theory. It's in the field of Theologoumena. It was never taught as doctrine by the Church of Christ.
Title: Re: Do Ukrainians believe in Toll Houses?
Post by: IreneOlinyk on March 18, 2010, 10:15:33 PM
Our UOC of USA priest did a lecture on Toll Houses last year and most of the people had never head of it before.
Who was the priest?  Maybe he didn't finish seminary and has been on the internet too much.  The parish could inform Metropolitan Anthony about this.
Title: Re: Do Ukrainians believe in Toll Houses?
Post by: IreneOlinyk on March 18, 2010, 10:17:10 PM
I've never heard a word about tollhouses from any of my Ukrainian friends. Usually it's the Russians, or English-speaking ROCOR converts who tend to believe in it, from my limited experience anyhow. I've heard a couple ROCOR priests casually mentioning the tollhouses as if they were real, but I just gasped inwardly and held my peace...
I heard that it became popular among some ROCOR cpnverts because isabel Hapgood added an article on it in her famous translation of the Liturgy at the beginning of the last century and her work has been re-published repeatedly.
Title: Re: Do Ukrainians believe in Toll Houses?
Post by: Iconodule on March 18, 2010, 10:59:27 PM
As has been said elsewhere, it's not necessarily a Russian thing. You can find the idea in Greek texts as well. Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos is one big-name Greek theologian who supports the idea.
Title: Re: Do Ukrainians believe in Toll Houses?
Post by: xuxana on March 19, 2010, 12:40:22 AM
I've honestly never heard it discussed at my parish.

The only "Toll House" I'm concerned with has the word "Nestle" in front of it and "Cookies" after it!  :laugh:

(http://www.nestleprofessional.com/united-states/en/BrandsAndProducts/Brands/NESTLE_TOLLHOUSE/PublishingImages/TH_CookiePull_IMG.jpg)

:laugh: lolz! that looks so good.
Title: Re: Do Ukrainians believe in Toll Houses?
Post by: yochanan on March 19, 2010, 04:03:41 AM
I've honestly never heard it discussed at my parish.

The only "Toll House" I'm concerned with has the word "Nestle" in front of it and "Cookies" after it!  :laugh:

(http://www.nestleprofessional.com/united-states/en/BrandsAndProducts/Brands/NESTLE_TOLLHOUSE/PublishingImages/TH_CookiePull_IMG.jpg)

:laugh: lolz! that looks so good.


bet that's what the demons tempt you with in the toll houses  ;)
Title: Re: Do Ukrainians believe in Toll Houses?
Post by: Ortho_cat on September 21, 2011, 03:48:58 AM
How did this "Toll Houses" theory come about anyway?

active imaginations... ;)

*runs and hides*
Title: Re: Do Ukrainians believe in Toll Houses?
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on September 22, 2011, 03:02:50 PM

At Coffee Hour, people don't discuss theologoumenons, they discuss things like how to make the best babka or perogie recipes, or in Greek parishes, the best baklava.


At the risk of sounding conceited, I find such discussion to be futile. I make the very best baklava and I am not even Greek, Turkish or Arab.  ;D
Title: Re: Do Ukrainians believe in Toll Houses?
Post by: jah777 on September 23, 2011, 11:43:08 AM
I'd like to ask some of my Ukrainian friends if it's common for Ukrainians to believe in Toll Houses or an intermediary state after death?  I figure that, since the Ukrainians feel  a lot closer to Constantinople then Moscow (historically) then they would be more inclined to believe in the intermediary state as opposed to the Russian Toll House beliefs.  By Ukrainians, I don't just mean the official position of one of the Ukrainian Churches but that which the simple folk in the pews tend to believe in.

Also, what about the Carpatho Russians?
 

I know this is an old thread, but since it has been resurrected recently, I thought I would just mention that some of the oldest surviving icons of the Last Judgment which include a depiction of the tollhouses are from the Ukraine and the Carpathian region.  There may have been older icons with such depictions that may not have survived.  The following icon is from the late 15th – early 16th century and is from the Church of the Nativity of the Virgin in the village of Mshana, Lviv region (Ukraine).  The icon is now in Lviv National Museaum.

(http://www.christusrex.org/www1/lviv/Gallery/Pictures/13.jpg)

In the book “Last Judgment Iconography in the Carpathians”, John-Paul Himka speaks of the Carpathian iconography depicting the tollhouses.  He specifically describes three different ways in which the tollbooths are depicted in Last Judgment iconography, saying “tollbooths of the fifteenth century [Last Judgment icons] were situated on a serpent in the lower centre of the icon…  Another design had emerged early in the sixteenth century… [which] represented the tollbooths as a series of booths stacked one upon another on the right border of the icon…  The third design first appeared on Dolyna, an icon from the 1560s.  It depicts a zigzag road with tollbooths at every turn in the road.”  He goes on to say, “Within our region there does not seem to be a geographical correlation at all for the different types of tollbooths.  The serpent tollbooths were to be found also in Russia, the booths-style tollbooths only in the Carpathian region  and Romanian Maramures, and the zigzag tollbooths in the Carpathian region.”

http://books.google.com/books?id=uMDsdb1kps0C&q=toll#v=snippet&q=tollbooths&f=false

So, depictions of the tollhouses in iconography can be found in the Carpathian region just as in the Ukraine, Russia, Romania, etc.