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Moderated Forums => Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion => Orthodox-Catholic Discussion => Topic started by: mike on February 08, 2010, 08:52:58 PM

Title: Role of the Pope
Post by: mike on February 08, 2010, 08:52:58 PM
A draft text. (http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1341814?eng=y) What do you think?

Title: Re: Role of the Pope
Post by: Melodist on February 08, 2010, 10:58:42 PM
I think it might be a step in the right direction.

Just my personal opinion.
Title: Re: Role of the Pope
Post by: ignatius on February 09, 2010, 12:11:00 PM
Grace and Peace,

Interesting piece.
Title: Re: Role of the Pope
Post by: ialmisry on February 09, 2010, 12:35:06 PM
For starters:
Quote
Late in the first century, invoking the example of the martyrs, Peter and Paul, the Church of Rome wrote a long letter to the Church of Corinth, which had ejected its elders (1 Clem. 1, 44), and urged that unity and harmony (homonoia) be restored

The example, not the authority, of SS. Peter and Paul (the latter, always present in speaking of the Roman see in the first millenium, gets forgotten as the Vatican claims are magnified).
Title: Re: Role of the Pope
Post by: AWR on February 09, 2010, 12:41:29 PM
A draft text. (http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1341814?eng=y) What do you think?


Nothing, new.  I my option, it would take much change on both sides for the Orthodox and the Catholics to proceed from that document.  The role of the Pope today is not the same as it was in the Church in the First Millennium.

Nice, but it could be but another way:

See link - http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/HopkoPope.php (http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/HopkoPope.php)
              Roman Presidency and Christian Unity in our Time by Fr. Thomas Hopko

 
Title: Re: Role of the Pope
Post by: Papist on February 09, 2010, 01:41:45 PM
For starters:
Quote
Late in the first century, invoking the example of the martyrs, Peter and Paul, the Church of Rome wrote a long letter to the Church of Corinth, which had ejected its elders (1 Clem. 1, 44), and urged that unity and harmony (homonoia) be restored

The example, not the authority, of SS. Peter and Paul (the latter, always present in speaking of the Roman see in the first millenium, gets forgotten as the Vatican claims are magnified).
I never forget Paul. :)
Title: Re: Role of the Pope
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on February 09, 2010, 03:00:12 PM
I never forget Paul. :)

But perhaps you could admit that this might be an influence of your Orthodox interactions?
Title: Re: Role of the Pope
Post by: Jimmy on February 09, 2010, 03:24:04 PM
I think that you have to admit that the pope had certain rights as the 'head bishop' or the 'first among equals'.  I think a lot of Orthodox want to interpret the early Church as if it were a democracy.  But in reality the bishop of Rome did have certain prerogatives, as the other patriarchs did.  It might not have been as it is now, but the head bishop wasn't simply an honorary position.  The councils specifically speak of certain rights that the patriarchs had.  The 34th apostolic canon speaks of the necessity of agreement with the head bishop (and vice versa). 
Title: Re: Role of the Pope
Post by: Papist on February 09, 2010, 03:29:20 PM
I never forget Paul. :)

But perhaps you could admit that this might be an influence of your Orthodox interactions?
No. I have always remembered St. Paul from the time that started reading the Fathers of the Church. This happened well before I had any experience of Eastern Orthodoxy.
Title: Re: Role of the Pope
Post by: mike on February 09, 2010, 04:28:34 PM
I think that you have to admit that the pope had certain rights as the 'head bishop' or the 'first among equals'.

'Head Bishop' - no, 'first among equals' - yes.
Title: Re: Role of the Pope
Post by: Papist on February 09, 2010, 04:30:56 PM
I think that you have to admit that the pope had certain rights as the 'head bishop' or the 'first among equals'.

'Head Bishop' - no, 'first among equals' - yes.
No!  Head Bishop!
No! First among equals!
No! Head Bishop!
No! First among equals!

"You're a towel!"
Title: Re: Role of the Pope
Post by: mike on February 09, 2010, 04:33:46 PM
"You're a towel!"

English is an amazing language.
Title: Re: Role of the Pope
Post by: Papist on February 09, 2010, 04:39:39 PM
"You're a towel!"

English is an amazing language.
It is. You konw that this was a reference to South Park right?
Title: Re: Role of the Pope
Post by: mike on February 09, 2010, 04:43:06 PM
It is. You konw that this was a reference to South Park right?

No, I haven't. That explains a lot :P
Title: Re: Role of the Pope
Post by: Papist on February 09, 2010, 04:46:30 PM
It is. You konw that this was a reference to South Park right?

No, I haven't. That explains a lot :P
There is a talking towel in South Park who at times tries to  hide this fact. When people accuse him of being a towel, he responds in his high pitched cartoon voice: "You're a towel!"
Title: Re: Role of the Pope
Post by: Jimmy on February 09, 2010, 04:47:42 PM
I think that you have to admit that the pope had certain rights as the 'head bishop' or the 'first among equals'.

'Head Bishop' - no, 'first among equals' - yes.

'Head bishop' is the term used by the 34th apostolic canon.  
Title: Re: Role of the Pope
Post by: ignatius on February 09, 2010, 05:27:39 PM
I really like what Fr. Hopko says at the end... "With God all things are possible. It is with this conviction that we can dare to imagine a global unity of Christians under the leadership of the bishop whose church of Rome was originally the first to "preside in love" among all of Christ's churches on earth".

Well said.
Title: Re: Role of the Pope
Post by: Papist on February 09, 2010, 07:20:18 PM
Prediction: This thread is going to get really fun really fast.
Title: Re: Role of the Pope
Post by: ialmisry on February 09, 2010, 09:21:54 PM
I think that you have to admit that the pope had certain rights as the 'head bishop' or the 'first among equals'.  I think a lot of Orthodox want to interpret the early Church as if it were a democracy.  But in reality the bishop of Rome did have certain prerogatives, as the other patriarchs did.  It might not have been as it is now, but the head bishop wasn't simply an honorary position.  The councils specifically speak of certain rights that the patriarchs had.  The 34th apostolic canon speaks of the necessity of agreement with the head bishop (and vice versa). 
But it speaks of no need of agreement of the patriachs with the bishop of Rome, as Pope St. Victor and many of his successors found out.
Title: Re: Role of the Pope
Post by: Jimmy on February 09, 2010, 10:01:18 PM
That might be the case, but it can't be ignored that certain bishops did have certain rights or prerogatives in the early church.  The bishop of Rome wasn't just a bishop with a little respect added on. He did play a certain role.

I think that you have to admit that the pope had certain rights as the 'head bishop' or the 'first among equals'.  I think a lot of Orthodox want to interpret the early Church as if it were a democracy.  But in reality the bishop of Rome did have certain prerogatives, as the other patriarchs did.  It might not have been as it is now, but the head bishop wasn't simply an honorary position.  The councils specifically speak of certain rights that the patriarchs had.  The 34th apostolic canon speaks of the necessity of agreement with the head bishop (and vice versa). 
But it speaks of no need of agreement of the patriachs with the bishop of Rome, as Pope St. Victor and many of his successors found out.
Title: Re: Role of the Pope
Post by: Heracleides on February 12, 2010, 11:40:56 AM
That might be the case, but it can't be ignored that certain bishops did have certain rights or prerogatives in the early church.  The bishop of Rome wasn't just a bishop with a little respect added on. He did play a certain role.

That he did - the bishops of Rome led the western half of Christianity into schism and eventual heresy.

But who knows, perhaps the current occupant of the See of Rome or one of his successors will lead a reformation of his church, purging the dross (starting with the grandiose notions of his own position within the Body of Christ) and return his wayward flock to the fold.
.
Title: Re: Role of the Pope
Post by: Jimmy on February 12, 2010, 02:05:45 PM
Your post has nothing to do with the thread.  Whether you think Rome led the west into error in the second millenium or not is irrelevant to what I said.  The fact remains that the canons of the early councils specifically speak of certain bishops having specific rights or prerogatives.  Your post doesn't even address the issue.  Telling me that the pope led the west into error just avoids the discussion.

That might be the case, but it can't be ignored that certain bishops did have certain rights or prerogatives in the early church.  The bishop of Rome wasn't just a bishop with a little respect added on. He did play a certain role.

That he did - the bishops of Rome led the western half of Christianity into schism and eventual heresy.

But who knows, perhaps the current occupant of the See of Rome or one of his successors will lead a reformation of his church, purging the dross (starting with the grandiose notions of his own position within the Body of Christ) and return his wayward flock to the fold.
.

Title: Re: Role of the Pope
Post by: AWR on February 12, 2010, 03:26:20 PM
Your post has nothing to do with the thread.  Whether you think Rome led the west into error in the second millenium or not is irrelevant to what I said.  The fact remains that the canons of the early councils specifically speak of certain bishops having specific rights or prerogatives.  Your post doesn't even address the issue.  Telling me that the pope led the west into error just avoids the discussion.

That might be the case, but it can't be ignored that certain bishops did have certain rights or prerogatives in the early church.  The bishop of Rome wasn't just a bishop with a little respect added on. He did play a certain role.

That he did - the bishops of Rome led the western half of Christianity into schism and eventual heresy.

But who knows, perhaps the current occupant of the See of Rome or one of his successors will lead a reformation of his church, purging the dross (starting with the grandiose notions of his own position within the Body of Christ) and return his wayward flock to the fold.
.
I think that is exactly what the Orthodox Churches believe is wrong with the role of the Pope of Rome.

Many believe that his Church demoted the role of the Holy Spirit, and promoted the role of the Pope.  It is the Holy Spirit that guides the Church not any particular person.   From the beginning, the Holy Spirit was worked in the entire Church to preserved the faith Christ taught the Apostles.  People, even large numbers of them, can ignore the Holy Spirit, but the Church as a whole, can’t. 

Quote
The canons of the early councils specifically speak of certain bishops having specific rights or prerogatives.
  And someday when the Church of Rome returns to the faith of those early councils, The Pope will have his place restored.
Title: Re: Role of the Pope
Post by: Jakub on February 12, 2010, 06:43:20 PM
Prediction: This thread is going to get really fun really fast.

Yep...
Title: Re: Role of the Pope
Post by: Iconodule on February 13, 2010, 01:20:18 AM
The EP's Russian Exarchate in Western Europe have been claiming, in legal battles, that the EP is the locum tenens of Rome, and therefore has jurisdiction over all of Rome's erstwhile territory. I'm wondering if the EP itself has ever made such an assertion.