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Moderated Forums => Free-For-All => Religious Topics => Topic started by: Asteriktos on December 27, 2009, 09:44:01 PM

Title: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on December 27, 2009, 09:44:01 PM
We've had tattoo threads before, but I don't think we've had a poll, and I think quite a few new regularly participating members have joined since the last thread. So... is it proper for an Orthodox Christian to get a tattoo? I assume that the content makes a difference--I'm not talking about flaming pentagrams here. Does the culture that you come from make a difference? Does the sex of the person make a difference? Does a tattoo not being publically visible most of the time make a difference?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on December 27, 2009, 10:56:08 PM
I'm not sure. 

I understand it, as I always wanted to get a full sleeve in earlier years and had many friends that did.  I am very glad I didn't now, but it is mostly because of the temptation of vanity. 

However, considering that we all primp ourselves in front of mirrors like harlots, it's probably not a sound criticism.  ;)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: coptic orthodox boy on December 27, 2009, 11:28:14 PM
I have no problem with it.  Happy I didn't get a tattoo of a cross on my wrist when I was practicing (a common practice amoung members of the Coptic Orthodox church) since I'm trying to get into the Navy OCS program and a tattoo on the wrist would most certainly disqualify me (U.S. military is getting strict with tattoos now-a-days).
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on January 05, 2010, 01:38:08 AM
So... I was mostly wondering about this because I had planned on getting a second tattoo, and I wanted to see what other Orthodox thought. Specifically, I got this one on my upper left arm about a week ago (I just printed it out and gave it to the tattoo artist)...

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Cross_of_the_Russian_Orthodox_Church_01.svg/337px-Cross_of_the_Russian_Orthodox_Church_01.svg.png)

Whether I'm Orthodox or not (and fwiw I am attending an Orthodox parish at the moment), Orthodoxy has had far more impact on me than other things I might get a tattoo of, so I figured I might as well get this one. Of course, had I waited a week I might very well have gotten a memorial tattoo instead, but you can't change the past I guess, and what's done is done. :)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: HandmaidenofGod on January 05, 2010, 01:55:30 AM
It's always been my understanding that tattoos are a "no-no" in the Church, regardless of content.

I could be wrong though.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: genesisone on January 05, 2010, 11:09:46 AM
What concerns me is respect for our bodies. A tattoo (and piercings) really aren't necessary, so should they be done?

When my son was a teenager he suggested that he wanted a tattoo. I told him before he did that to visit a seniors' nursing home and ask all the veterans to show him theirs. He still doesn't have a tattoo, and he'll be thirty-two in a couple of weeks. And what's more, he's a naval officer (reserves) now!
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: GammaRay on January 05, 2010, 12:04:09 PM
Asteriktos, if you ever get the time to, post a pic of it! I can imagine that it looks nice.

I also thought of getting a tattoo, but I'm afraid that I'm going to regret it later. :-\
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Bogoliubtsy on January 05, 2010, 01:48:22 PM
Among others, I have this on the inside of my arm/bicep.  :)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Rosehip on January 05, 2010, 01:57:08 PM
I think original culture does make a big difference. I personally find tattoos to mar the beauty of the wearer and can't understand why anyone would consider this vanity. It's just icky. No offense to those who have them please, but I find them intolerable.

>ducks for cover<
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Bogoliubtsy on January 05, 2010, 02:00:43 PM
I think original culture does make a big difference. I personally find tattoos to mar the beauty of the wearer and can't understand why anyone would consider this vanity. It's just icky. No offense to those who have them please, but I find them intolerable.

>ducks for cover<

For me, they can go both ways- either be hideous and/or trashy, or look quite nice.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: BoredMeeting on January 05, 2010, 02:04:12 PM
I have heard tattoos should be avoided as it involves the sort of body modification that Orthodox Christians should reject.

But this got me thinking (assuming that this teaching is correct), if you have the tattoos when you become an Orthodox Christian, wouldn't having them removed be considered body modification?

Are pierced ears ok then? If those are ok, what about other piercings? I know an Orthodox mom who was upset about her son getting a tattoo (a three-bar cross) but she sports a navel piercing (around the community pool).

How about cosmetic surgery?

It would be helpful if there were a set of rules, including the theology behind them, that could be referenced.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Bogoliubtsy on January 05, 2010, 02:10:45 PM

It would be helpful if there were a set of rules, including the theology behind them, that could be referenced.


Yeah, like an Orthodox Christian Talmud or something.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Rosehip on January 05, 2010, 02:11:34 PM
I agree. We need a set theology about these matters. :) Piercings are pretty barbaric in my books too. Have never been able to make the leap and get my ears pierced. I always back out at the last minute. For me, earrings are quite nice-vanity would be involved there, definitely- and I would be sorely tempted to undergo pierced ears just so I could wear these items, but the thought of dealing with the holes etc. is too exhausting and uncertain, so I forgo it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Papist on January 05, 2010, 03:26:05 PM
So... I was mostly wondering about this because I had planned on getting a second tattoo, and I wanted to see what other Orthodox thought. Specifically, I got this one on my upper left arm about a week ago (I just printed it out and gave it to the tattoo artist)...

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Cross_of_the_Russian_Orthodox_Church_01.svg/337px-Cross_of_the_Russian_Orthodox_Church_01.svg.png)

Whether I'm Orthodox or not (and fwiw I am attending an Orthodox parish at the moment), Orthodoxy has had far more impact on me than other things I might get a tattoo of, so I figured I might as well get this one. Of course, had I waited a week I might very well have gotten a memorial tattoo instead, but you can't change the past I guess, and what's done is done. :)
My brother had the Byzantine Cross tatooed on the back of his calve.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Rosehip on January 05, 2010, 03:40:22 PM
I just realized what a hypocrite I am. I have at least three tattoos on my body, but, you know, "out of sight-out of mind". I have no idea what they look like either.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: BoredMeeting on January 07, 2010, 10:13:18 AM
It would be helpful if there were a set of rules, including the theology behind them, that could be referenced.
Yeah, like an Orthodox Christian Talmud or something.
I was thinking more along the line of at least finding a few links to Orthodox clergy referencing the Church's teachings on this question. ;D
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: GammaRay on January 07, 2010, 10:26:44 AM
Among others, I have this on the inside of my arm/bicep.  :)
That's a nice one, though I think that the birds are a bit of thin. Cool. ;)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on January 11, 2010, 03:23:17 AM
Among others, I have this on the inside of my arm/bicep.  :)

Sinner!  Just kidding. It looks nice... certainly blows my small, black/grey ones away! It looks like it almost goes down to your elbow, if you don't mind my asking, do you ever have issues with people seeing it (e.g. work related)?


Asteriktos, if you ever get the time to, post a pic of it! I can imagine that it looks nice.

I also thought of getting a tattoo, but I'm afraid that I'm going to regret it later. :-\

Fwiw, I first wanted to get a tattoo when I was a teenager, but waited till I was 30 to get my first one. I'm glad I did, otherwise I'd probably have Metallica's Master of Puppets album cover across my back or something  :D  I'll post a pic whenever I get another digital camera, maybe in a couple days. I used to be able to use my webcam and then hit the print screen key and paste it into a graphic program, but for some reason that doesn't work now. *shrugs*

I'll be going to get a memorial tattoo for Mary on Tuesday. Nothing elaborate, just a black rose with Mary's name by it. I gave the tattoo artist a few pictures I pulled off the net to let him know sort of what angle and whatnot I'd prefer for the rose, but I haven't seen what he's drawn up yet. Hopefully it'll be something as nice as this one (http://tattoonow.vo.llnwd.net/o25/TranscendTattooGalleryHOSTED/images/gallery/blkrose.jpg).
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on January 11, 2010, 03:27:48 AM
I think original culture does make a big difference. I personally find tattoos to mar the beauty of the wearer and can't understand why anyone would consider this vanity. It's just icky. No offense to those who have them please, but I find them intolerable.

>ducks for cover<

Throws tomato  :P  Nah, everyone has their opinion, which is perfectly fine. I sometimes react the same way when I see some tattoos... like "how could you get that permanently put on yourself?"  But to each their own. Both my grandfather and father had/have multiple tattoos, so maybe it just seems like a normal form of expression to me.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on January 11, 2010, 03:32:48 AM
It would be helpful if there were a set of rules, including the theology behind them, that could be referenced.
Yeah, like an Orthodox Christian Talmud or something.

So sassy!
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: SolEX01 on January 11, 2010, 03:37:59 AM
I think original culture does make a big difference. I personally find tattoos to mar the beauty of the wearer and can't understand why anyone would consider this vanity. It's just icky. No offense to those who have them please, but I find them intolerable.

>ducks for cover<

Throws tomato  :P  Nah, everyone has their opinion, which is perfectly fine. I sometimes react the same way when I see some tattoos... like "how could you get that permanently put on yourself?"  But to each their own. Both my grandfather and father had/have multiple tattoos, so maybe it just seems like a normal form of expression to me.

Or a mechanism for inflicting pain in order to tolerate more pain or a mechanism to remind oneself of past pleasure, pain or both.  The following is extracted from a Boston Globe book review on Why People die of Suicide by Thomas Joiner (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0674025490?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creativeASIN=0674025490). 

Quote
The third factor in Joiner's theory is the development of the capacity to perpetrate lethal self-injury. Joiner identifies the root and branch of this ability in repeated painful experiences that desensitize the individual to the ultimate injury. Among many examples he cites is his father's maneuvering a pleasure boat through a stormy sea. When the steering wheel snaps off, badly lacerating his hand, he continues to grapple with the shattered tiller, seemingly oblivious to the blood streaming from his hand.

source (http://www.boston.com/ae/books/articles/2006/07/12/mixing_the_personal_with_the_empirical_a_scientist_seeks_to_explain_suicide/)

>ducks for cover<
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on January 11, 2010, 03:41:39 AM
Or a mechanism for inflicting pain in order to tolerate more pain or a mechanism to remind oneself of past pleasure, pain or both. 

Perhaps. :)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Robert W on January 11, 2010, 03:56:08 AM
Among others, I have this on the inside of my arm/bicep.  :)
(http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=25099.0;attach=5051;image)
Heraldry as tattoos are AWESOME!!  8)

My wife recently got these two symbols as tattoos on her wrists
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/81/Trefoil-Architectural.svg/150px-Trefoil-Architectural.svg.png) (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Triquetra-Vesica.svg/180px-Triquetra-)
They both obviously represent the trinity. Our priest commented positively (he might have just been polite :P) and said that unfortunately priests are not allowed tattoos.

Have anyone else heard this about priests not being allowed tattoos?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Irish Hermit on January 11, 2010, 04:04:00 AM
I've got my son tattooed with a Celtic cross.  He is a solvent abusing street kid and so if he ever gets mashed by a bus or a train we will have a better chance of identifying him.  I thought of having a chip put in but it seems they only do that for dogs <joking>

Just to remark that I live in the South Pacific where tattoos are a significant part of the local cultures, whether Maori or Samoan or other Polynesian cultures.   They are very common.  Nobody is offended by them and they do not denote that one is a member of the underworld or of the criminal classes.   :)

Here is a tattoo very similar to Nick's, except his is smaller.

(http://www.religioustattoos.net/Images/Crosses_Celtic/cross_celtic_5.jpg)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on January 11, 2010, 04:06:44 AM
Among others, I have this on the inside of my arm/bicep.  :)

An awesome tattoo!
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Riddikulus on January 11, 2010, 04:39:13 AM
Among others, I have this on the inside of my arm/bicep.  :)
(http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=25099.0;attach=5051;image)
Heraldry as tattoos are AWESOME!!  8)

My wife recently got these two symbols as tattoos on her wrists
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/81/Trefoil-Architectural.svg/150px-Trefoil-Architectural.svg.png) (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Triquetra-Vesica.svg/180px-Triquetra-)
They both obviously represent the trinity. Our priest commented positively (he might have just been polite :P) and said that unfortunately priests are not allowed tattoos.

Have anyone else heard this about priests not being allowed tattoos?

Yes, the priest at our old parish mentioned this. Something to do with self-mutilation, if I recall correctly. But he was against tattooes for everyone; piercings, too..... except a female's ears.  ??? I like those trinitarian symbols, btw.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Riddikulus on January 11, 2010, 04:41:01 AM
I've got my son tattooed with a Celtic cross.  He is a solvent abusing street kid and so if he ever gets mashed by a bus or a train we will have a better chance of identifying him.  I thought of having a chip put in but it seems they only do that for dogs <joking>

Just to remark that I live in the South Pacific where tattoos are a significant part of the local cultures, whether Maori or Samoan or other Polynesian cultures.   They are very common.  Nobody is offended by them and they do not denote that one is a member of the underworld or of the criminal classes.   :)

Here is a tattoo very similar to Nick's, except his is smaller.

(http://www.religioustattoos.net/Images/Crosses_Celtic/cross_celtic_5.jpg)


Like that, very much!
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: SolEX01 on January 11, 2010, 04:44:06 AM
Or a mechanism for inflicting pain in order to tolerate more pain or a mechanism to remind oneself of past pleasure, pain or both. 

Perhaps. :)

Thanks for not throwing rotten tomatoes, at least publicly.   ;)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on January 14, 2010, 07:45:15 PM
I can't seem to get my new digital camera working properly. It was fine the first day I used it, but now it shuts off after every pic I try to take, and doesn't save the image.  :-\ So I don't have a pic of the cross tattoo, but I did get a pic of the memorial tattoo...

(http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/2701/rosetat.jpg)

I'm not crazy about the coloring outside the leaves, and wasn't asked about that... but what's done is done now.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Riddikulus on January 14, 2010, 07:49:09 PM
I like that, Asteriktos!
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Papist on January 14, 2010, 08:43:17 PM
I've got my son tattooed with a Celtic cross.  He is a solvent abusing street kid and so if he ever gets mashed by a bus or a train we will have a better chance of identifying him.  I thought of having a chip put in but it seems they only do that for dogs <joking>

Just to remark that I live in the South Pacific where tattoos are a significant part of the local cultures, whether Maori or Samoan or other Polynesian cultures.   They are very common.  Nobody is offended by them and they do not denote that one is a member of the underworld or of the criminal classes.   :)

Here is a tattoo very similar to Nick's, except his is smaller.

(http://www.religioustattoos.net/Images/Crosses_Celtic/cross_celtic_5.jpg)

I thought monks couldn't have children?   ???
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Quinault on January 14, 2010, 08:51:39 PM
You guys think a tattoo of a cross is on your body is wrong?

A streetkid-solvent abuser has lived on our church premises for many years.  It's a long story - a lifetime of physical and sexual abuse from his "fathers" in multiple foster homes.  In other words, more sinned against than sinning.

Some years back I wanted to get him a birthday present - his name is Nicholas and he was born on Saint Nicholas day.  In the past any presents, such as walkmans, have been stolen from him by his street "friends" within a few hours.

He loves Irish things and he is a Christian in his own way, comes to church venerates the icons, says his prayers.  So I got him a present that couldn't be lost - a tattoo of a Celtic cross on his forearm.  He loves it -and there is the odd advantage pointed out to me by a policeman that if he is ever hit by a bus or burnt in a derelict house they can use the cross to identify him!

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5844.0.html
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Rosehip on January 14, 2010, 08:59:50 PM
I was puzzled too, about Irish Hermit's children. Unless he means spiritual child? Asteriktos, I don't really like tattoos but yours is quite lovely.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Irish Hermit on January 14, 2010, 09:03:09 PM
I thought monks couldn't have children?   ???

Many monks have children.  Patriarch German of Serbia had two sons and they both became his deacons at the patriarchate.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on January 14, 2010, 11:10:24 PM
I've really wanted one for a long time but I've never talked to my priest about it.  My housemate has a really nice tattoo very close to Asteriktos' cross, and I've always wanted one that looks very similar to Fr. Ambrose' son's Celtic cross (big surprise  :P).  But for me, unless I get my priests' permission, it ain't gonna happen.  But, I pass absolutely no judgment on all y'all for getting one (or many).  :)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Bogoliubtsy on January 14, 2010, 11:23:22 PM
Among others, I have this on the inside of my arm/bicep.  :)

Sinner!  Just kidding. It looks nice... certainly blows my small, black/grey ones away! It looks like it almost goes down to your elbow, if you don't mind my asking, do you ever have issues with people seeing it (e.g. work related)?




Yeah, I have to wear long sleeves in work/work-like environments. Kind of a bummer, but not too much of a pain. Occasionally I wear short-sleeves. Students think it's either cool or weird, but either way want to know what it's all about and will keep pestering you til they get the full story.  :)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on January 15, 2010, 02:26:46 PM
Yeah, I have to wear long sleeves in work/work-like environments. Kind of a bummer, but not too much of a pain. Occasionally I wear short-sleeves. Students think it's either cool or weird, but either way want to know what it's all about and will keep pestering you til they get the full story.  :)

Lol, well I guess if you were more evangelically minded you could use it as a way to break the ice on your way to converting them ;)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on January 15, 2010, 02:28:46 PM
So today my camera is working normally again. *scratches head confusedly* Anyway, I don't have anyone else to take the pic, so the cross is sort of twisted, but fwiw here is a pic...

(http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/9808/crosstat.jpg)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: scamandrius on January 16, 2010, 03:37:10 PM
I have been told that a carry over from the old Jewish Law is that tattooed Orthodox christians cannot be buried in an Orthodox cemetery.  Is that correct?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Bogoliubtsy on January 16, 2010, 03:38:26 PM
I have been told that a carry over from the old Jewish Law is that tattooed Orthodox christians cannot be buried in an Orthodox cemetery.  Is that correct?

Haven't heard that. Tsar-Martyr Nicholas II is out of luck, I guess.  ;)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: GregoryLA on January 16, 2010, 06:15:25 PM
The most ridiculous tattoo I've ever seen was this guy I knew who got a goat's head and pentagram tattooed on his throat- from right under his chin to his clavicle. I was at a barbeque at a friend's house when the parents of he girl whose house it was asked- quite politely- what the significance was. He said it was an ancient pagan symbol for something or another but that it had been supressed by the Catholics from before the time of Christ. I about fell over backwards at that and asked him to clarify, but he was quite sure of what he said. Haha.

I guys all those Catholics were just sitting around waiting! :laugh:
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: BoredMeeting on January 17, 2010, 06:02:06 PM
I have been told that a carry over from the old Jewish Law is that tattooed Orthodox christians cannot be buried in an Orthodox cemetery.  Is that correct?
I have never heard that and I would seriously question it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Isadore on January 18, 2010, 05:23:35 AM
Tattoos and piercings are standard here--I've got none, but am planning a few. White tattoo on my wrist (won't be visible)--ex libris, reminding myself to read and write. Small black tattoo on my ankle--longitude and latitude of the beach my father took me to as a child. Don't know about the rest.

If anyone's seen the Baz Luhrman version of Romeo and Juliet the (Franciscan?) monk has a giant cross over his back--a Byzantine version seems like it would be nice, just not on me!
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: ChristusDominus on January 23, 2010, 10:45:37 PM
Tattoos and piercings are standard here--I've got none, but am planning a few. White tattoo on my wrist (won't be visible)--ex libris, reminding myself to read and write. Small black tattoo on my ankle--longitude and latitude of the beach my father took me to as a child. Don't know about the rest.

If anyone's seen the Baz Luhrman version of Romeo and Juliet the (Franciscan?) monk has a giant cross over his back--a Byzantine version seems like it would be nice, just not on me!
Do you know where I can get a glimpse of this particular tattoo?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Isadore on January 23, 2010, 11:31:34 PM
http://media.photobucket.com/image/romeo%20and%20juliet%20modern%20friar%20lawrence%20tattoo/mcv2117/ROMEO_AND_JULIET-2.jpg

He's in a greenhouse, lol.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: ChristusDominus on January 24, 2010, 12:17:21 AM
http://media.photobucket.com/image/romeo%20and%20juliet%20modern%20friar%20lawrence%20tattoo/mcv2117/ROMEO_AND_JULIET-2.jpg

He's in a greenhouse, lol.
Ah, o.k that looks more like a Celtic cross.
Title: Tattoo's and the Orthodox Faith
Post by: Pravoslav on February 01, 2010, 08:54:14 PM
This is something I have been debating for some time, I would like to get a couple of Religious themed tattoo's. I have talked to Priest, Bishops and Monks and all differ in some aspect or another. Does anyone on these boards have any info? I have seen a lot of knowledgeable people on this forum board and hope to get some good answers.
1.I have been told, that my body is not mine therefore I need to respect it. (compared it to spray painting graffiti on a Church)
2.I have been told, you already wear a cross that is sufficient.
3.I have been told, I would not make it to Heaven if I did.
Can someone give me their take on it?
Thank you in advance
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Riddikulus on February 01, 2010, 10:24:45 PM
^ I often wonder if part of the problem is a surviving prejudice, the ancient Graeco-Roman stigma (pardon the pun) of tattooes being a: the practice of Barbarians and b: something that indicated that one was a slave; a person of no worth or status. ISTM, more a case of social exclusion stubbornly persisting than a genuine impediment to heaven.  
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Melodist on February 01, 2010, 10:38:51 PM
I've heard of monks on Mt Athos giving pilgrims the opportunity to receive a tattoo of the cross.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: ChristusDominus on February 01, 2010, 11:17:06 PM
I've heard of monks on Mt Athos giving pilgrims the opportunity to receive a tattoo of the cross.
Where would they put this tattoo of the cross?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Melodist on February 01, 2010, 11:26:29 PM
I've heard of monks on Mt Athos giving pilgrims the opportunity to receive a tattoo of the cross.
Where would they put this tattoo of the cross?

I heard it was a small one usually done somewhere on the hand.

I've also heard of times in history when Christians have had "I worship Jesus Christ" tattooed on their wrist, and also of Ethiopians tattooing crosses on their forehead.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on February 01, 2010, 11:37:32 PM
I've heard of monks on Mt Athos giving pilgrims the opportunity to receive a tattoo of the cross.

That's sort of... er... I take it they don't have autoclaves there on Mount Athos. You see where I'm going with this?  :angel:
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Melodist on February 01, 2010, 11:57:54 PM
I've heard of monks on Mt Athos giving pilgrims the opportunity to receive a tattoo of the cross.

That's sort of... er... I take it they don't have autoclaves there on Mount Athos. You see where I'm going with this?  :angel:

It's just what I've heard. I'm sure they would have some way of keeping things clean and sanitary if they do give tattoos.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: ChristusDominus on February 02, 2010, 12:35:29 AM
I just realized what a hypocrite I am. I have at least three tattoos on my body, but, you know, "out of sight-out of mind". I have no idea what they look like either.
They are on your body yet you don't know what they look like? ::)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on February 02, 2010, 12:38:39 AM
I just realized what a hypocrite I am. I have at least three tattoos on my body, but, you know, "out of sight-out of mind". I have no idea what they look like either.
They are on your body yet you don't know what they look like? ::)

My feet are a part of my body, but I haven't seen them in years and years, and I couldn't tell you what they look like. My protective padding covering my abs of steel get in the way, ya know?  :P
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: ChristusDominus on February 02, 2010, 12:39:03 AM
I have a few that I got long ago. I'll share this one, hope it isn't too blurry or faded. I used my cell phone to capture the image.

(http://i48.tinypic.com/whz1n9.jpg)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on February 02, 2010, 01:19:31 AM
It's just what I've heard. I'm sure they would have some way of keeping things clean and sanitary if they do give tattoos.

Nobody gives any stupid tattoos on Mt Athos.  A friend of mine got an icon of Christ tattooed on his arm and a monk from Athos about ripped his arm off over it.

There is a practice by the laity in Oriental Orthodoxy, particularly in the Coptic and Ethiopian Churches, where some get small crosses tattooed on their hand or forehead.  This is a reminder of a time period when Christians who wouldn't convert to Islam were branded with crosses by the government.  This practice today is often seen as a permanent statement, meaning that the Christians there have no intention of converting.  Many of them feel that it gives them a stronger connection with their ancestors, who were stronger than the rest of the populace because they refused to abandon Christ for the lies of a false prophet.

But this custom is in no way officially encouraged or sanctioned by the Oriental Churches, it just happens, and probably without much condemnation.  But this custom is not a part of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, nor has it ever been as far as I can tell.  The idea of getting a fashionable tattoo of Christ or His Mother for vanity is not a part of our traditions.

1.I have been told, that my body is not mine therefore I need to respect it. (compared it to spray painting graffiti on a Church)
2.I have been told, you already wear a cross that is sufficient.
3.I have been told, I would not make it to Heaven if I did.

So none of the advice you received from anyone regarding tattoos was in the affirmative, so you've come to this forum seeking affirmation when you couldn't get it from your bishop, priest, or spiritual father?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: augustin717 on February 02, 2010, 01:34:49 AM
I think the clergy should have no business in giving any strong answer to this matter. I also think that laity should not ask their opinion either. It's just not their job and, I think, asking a clergyman about getting a tattoo or any other trifle like this only betrays a very clericalist mindset and expectations.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on February 02, 2010, 02:04:56 AM
...asking a clergyman about getting a tattoo or any other trifle like this only betrays a very clericalist mindset and expectations.

Well, some of us don't differentiate advise into spiritual and secular categories.  Every aspect of our lives need to be in submission to God, and often some need more advise than others.  Some think they know enough to where they don't really need any advice from a priest.

I will agree with you, though, that it is not the job of a priest to micromanage our lives.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: augustin717 on February 02, 2010, 02:45:06 AM
99% of the Orthodox folks I've known-in a very culturally Orthodox environment-would never bother their clergy with this sort of questions, not even with weightier "spiritual" questions.
A priest is good to go to confess to, ask him for various religious services such as baptisms and burials-but he is not an oracle. Neither is our faith regulated in every minor aspect.

Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on February 02, 2010, 04:03:32 AM
99% of the Orthodox folks I've known-in a very culturally Orthodox environment-would never bother their clergy with this sort of questions, not even with weightier "spiritual" questions.
A priest is good to go to confess to, ask him for various religious services such as baptisms and burials-but he is not an oracle. Neither is our faith regulated in every minor aspect.

Yes, you've flashed your True Orthodox credentials on numerous occasions already, so I'm well aware of them.  It's nice to know how Orthodox piety manifests itself in one cultural setting gets to set the standard for everywhere else.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: augustin717 on February 02, 2010, 04:12:11 AM
You get so defensive when someone merely implies that orthodoxy has been around in some places longer than in others. It's funny.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on February 02, 2010, 04:23:42 AM
You get so defensive when someone merely implies that orthodoxy has been around in some places longer than in others. It's funny.

Well I'm glad to provide you with such amusement. There have been numerous other times on the forum where you've been quick to bring up the way it is the real Orthodox old-world.  Sometimes these reflections are helpful, but usually you're just taking a passive stab at overzealous neophytes.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: augustin717 on February 02, 2010, 04:27:26 AM
How should one deal with "overzealous neophyts"?
I think you read too much in what I ramble here.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Pravoslav on February 02, 2010, 09:40:53 AM
It is easy to sit hear and lay judgment on people, I simply asked a question. I have no tattoo's but was considering getting a religious one. I have seen a Priest with a tattoo of a cross on the top of his hand. The reason I asked several people who I hold highly in my personal life is because I value their opinions. The reason I ask on here is just to get an over all picture of what other Orthodox brothers and sisters think about our Faith and that of tattoo's.
As for the person who said they shouldn't be bothered which such questions is rather silly, I feel bad for you if you can not approach your Priest in such manner. You quoted "A priest is good to go to confess to, ask him for various religious services such as baptisms and burials-but he is not an oracle". Now if I were like you I would reply with "Maybe being Orthodox you should already now the customs and or rituals involved in a Baptism or buriel" ;)
In my life my Spiritual Father is everything, what he says I hold highly. Hence the reason for no tattoo's, just wanted to see what others thought, and all I see is ignorance and self righteousness, it is no wonder we are held back and split into so many different jurisdictions. Calling people "enthusiastic beginners" is very Christian of you. Maybe I was wrong about this forum...
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: ChristusDominus on February 02, 2010, 05:43:50 PM
It is easy to sit hear and lay judgment on people, I simply asked a question. I have no tattoo's but was considering getting a religious one. I have seen a Priest with a tattoo of a cross on the top of his hand. The reason I asked several people who I hold highly in my personal life is because I value their opinions. The reason I ask on here is just to get an over all picture of what other Orthodox brothers and sisters think about our Faith and that of tattoo's.
As for the person who said they shouldn't be bothered which such questions is rather silly, I feel bad for you if you can not approach your Priest in such manner. You quoted "A priest is good to go to confess to, ask him for various religious services such as baptisms and burials-but he is not an oracle". Now if I were like you I would reply with "Maybe being Orthodox you should already now the customs and or rituals involved in a Baptism or buriel" ;)
In my life my Spiritual Father is everything, what he says I hold highly. Hence the reason for no tattoo's, just wanted to see what others thought, and all I see is ignorance and self righteousness, it is no wonder we are held back and split into so many different jurisdictions. Calling people "enthusiastic beginners" is very Christian of you. Maybe I was wrong about this forum...
I think that asking your priest would be the best advice. Who cares what others say? This is between you, your spiritual confessor and God. Many people are just going to say that you'll be guilty of vanity. You don't need to do something drastic like getting a tattoo to be guilty of that.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Rosehip on February 02, 2010, 06:01:34 PM
I just realized what a hypocrite I am. I have at least three tattoos on my body, but, you know, "out of sight-out of mind". I have no idea what they look like either.
They are on your body yet you don't know what they look like? ::)

Yes. I was tattooed in three places at the back in order to help direct radium into my body.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Rosehip on February 02, 2010, 06:27:29 PM
99% of the Orthodox folks I've known-in a very culturally Orthodox environment-would never bother their clergy with this sort of questions, not even with weightier "spiritual" questions.
A priest is good to go to confess to, ask him for various religious services such as baptisms and burials-but he is not an oracle. Neither is our faith regulated in every minor aspect.



Included in that 99% could be many very nominal types-at least if Romania is anything like my experience in Ukraine.

And I as a convert rarely trouble my priests about anything (I learned the hard way). However, many of my, how to say?, revert friends from Orthodox countries call up their priest numerous times a day to ask various questions. I've even visited one when they were baking something and before they put it in the oven, they called the priest for his blessing as they held the batter under the receiver. Sigh. Something I would never think of doing in a million years.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Riddikulus on February 02, 2010, 06:35:44 PM
It is easy to sit hear and lay judgment on people, I simply asked a question. I have no tattoo's but was considering getting a religious one. I have seen a Priest with a tattoo of a cross on the top of his hand. The reason I asked several people who I hold highly in my personal life is because I value their opinions. The reason I ask on here is just to get an over all picture of what other Orthodox brothers and sisters think about our Faith and that of tattoo's.
As for the person who said they shouldn't be bothered which such questions is rather silly, I feel bad for you if you can not approach your Priest in such manner. You quoted "A priest is good to go to confess to, ask him for various religious services such as baptisms and burials-but he is not an oracle". Now if I were like you I would reply with "Maybe being Orthodox you should already now the customs and or rituals involved in a Baptism or buriel" ;)
In my life my Spiritual Father is everything, what he says I hold highly. Hence the reason for no tattoo's, just wanted to see what others thought, and all I see is ignorance and self righteousness, it is no wonder we are held back and split into so many different jurisdictions. Calling people "enthusiastic beginners" is very Christian of you. Maybe I was wrong about this forum...

Perhaps you should be careful of sitting here and laying judgement on people.  ;) As you had already run this question past your Spiritual Father, someone you hold in high esteem, anyone who was going to give opposing advice was being set up to come off as an adversary. If the responses to your question have offended you, it is because you invited honest responses, perhaps unwittingly pitting some of those responses against the advice of your Spiritual Father. That being the case, it is quite natural that the opinions of some of the forum members have not measured up to your expectations. ISTM, that if you are going to be offended by the responses you get, especially already having advice from someone who opinions you admire, it might pay not to ask in the first place. IMO, it's really not fair to use the posters here in such a way.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Pravoslav on February 02, 2010, 08:19:45 PM
Listen I am not nearly as rightous as half the people on here "pretend" to be, but I love my Faith and try very hard to live a pious life. I have the hardest job in the world, being an Orthodox Chrisitan. It is a 24/7 job, nothing in the world is more demanding, but I love it. i love learning and meeting people of the same Faith and values.
As for setting people up, that's not the case at all. Seems you have been on here longer than me, and you do not see how people on here talk to each other? I am not setting anybody up, just wanted to see what others thought.We all have minds and mouths, thus can make statements. I would never pit anyone against anyone, the thing I see on this board is a lot of separation instead of love and unity.  What do you mean "it is not fair to use posters in such a way"? This is a forum is it not, to ask questions and to read responses and to meet new people. I am not looking to argue with anyone, I can fully guarantee you that. I see a lot of people taking shots at each others ethnicities, I don't get it. We all have a common bond, our Faith and that to me is more important than my ethnicity. Also is this forum open to all Religions or just the Orthodox Faith?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Pravoslav on February 02, 2010, 08:26:04 PM
Nice comment ChristusDominus. Rosehip I do not call my Priest on a daily basis, but when I do go to Church or to Bible class I do engage in conversation (it isn't always about Faith). If people are calling him to get their baked goods blesssed that is just wrong, they are busy enough without us weighing them down.
 They are humans just like us, if your Priest tells you different that he is something that should be held looked upon above all or never looked at or talked to then I feel sorry for you. My Priest is a wonderful man who I can go to with anything. Do I fear his responses some times, of course but I am never afraid to say what I need to say. What would life be living it quietly?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: ozgeorge on February 02, 2010, 08:30:47 PM
What would life be living it quietly?
Hesychasm. :)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on February 02, 2010, 08:32:29 PM
Quote
Also is this forum open to all Religions or just the Orthodox Faith?

If you are asking whether non-Orthodox can participate here, then the answer is yes.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Riddikulus on February 02, 2010, 08:37:48 PM
Listen I am not nearly as rightous as half the people on here "pretend" to be, but I love my Faith and try very hard to live a pious life. I have the hardest job in the world, being an Orthodox Chrisitan. It is a 24/7 job, nothing in the world is more demanding, but I love it. i love learning and meeting people of the same Faith and values.
As for setting people up, that's not the case at all. Seems you have been on here longer than me, and you do not see how people on here talk to each other?

Oh, I see it, but I tend to take it with a grain of salt. Afterall, we are all sinners on this forum; all bound to fail in one way or another. Loving each other in spite of that is the aim of the Orthodox Christian.

Quote
I am not setting anybody up, just wanted to see what others thought.

But when they disagreed with what your Spiritual Father said, you got defensive.

Quote
We all have minds and mouths, thus can make statements. I would never pit anyone against anyone, the thing I see on this board is a lot of separation instead of love and unity. 

What you see is people with a diversity of opinions, which you can either accept graciously or condemn as lack of love and unity.

Quote
What do you mean "it is not fair to use posters in such a way"? This is a forum is it not, to ask questions and to read responses and to meet new people.

ISTM, that you already had a formed opinion when you asked the question; that of your Spiritual Father, who you rightly hold in high esteem. You must have known when asking the question that there was a likelihood that people on the thread might not agree. You only had to look at the way the voting had fallen to see that.

Quote
I am not looking to argue with anyone, I can fully guarantee you that. I see a lot of people taking shots at each others ethnicities, I don't get it. We all have a common bond, our Faith and that to me is more important than my ethnicity. Also is this forum open to all Religions or just the Orthodox Faith?

As brothers and sisters it seems natural that we are going to have banter even argument, sometimes quite heated. We are a family. Some people on here communicate through sarcasm, some with irony, some with manipulative tactics; we have all sorts. Most of those who have responded on this thread are Orthodox Christians; each of us with differing spiritual illnesses. Of course, there is going to be people taking shots. That's human nature and we love each other in spite of it, I hope. :) And yes, the forum is open to all religions.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Rosehip on February 02, 2010, 08:46:14 PM
Nice comment ChristusDominus. Rosehip I do not call my Priest on a daily basis, but when I do go to Church or to Bible class I do engage in conversation (it isn't always about Faith). If people are calling him to get their baked goods blesssed that is just wrong, they are busy enough without us weighing them down.
 They are humans just like us, if your Priest tells you different that he is something that should be held looked upon above all or never looked at or talked to then I feel sorry for you. My Priest is a wonderful man who I can go to with anything. Do I fear his responses some times, of course but I am never afraid to say what I need to say. What would life be living it quietly?

Pravoslav, I was just trying to point out that it's not always the North American converts who are full of questions and wanting to know details and do everything correctly, etc. Even folks born in Orthodox countries have been known to do the same-it's neither right nor wrong and each person is different in how he/she approaches spiritual matters. I wasn't implicating you in any way-in fact the post was directed elsewhere and wasn't even meant to be critical of the parties to whom it was actually directed. I was merely making a statement based on observation and experience.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: ChristusDominus on February 03, 2010, 12:28:03 AM
I just realized what a hypocrite I am. I have at least three tattoos on my body, but, you know, "out of sight-out of mind". I have no idea what they look like either.
They are on your body yet you don't know what they look like? ::)

Yes. I was tattooed in three places at the back in order to help direct radium into my body.
O.K. thank you for sharing, young lady.  :)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Eugenio on February 03, 2010, 01:27:23 AM
I just found a really cool book on the subject. It's got pages and pages of Coptic tattoo designs that I believe are used by pilgrims in Egypt. Here's the book info:

"Coptic Tattoo Designs" by John Carswell.
Published by the American University of Beirut, 2nd ed. 1958

I've never gotten a tattoo before. I'm tempted to get one of these. However, being that I'm fairly unfamiliar with Coptic Christianity and its symbology, I probably won't until I consult a Coptic Christian and see if there is any meaning to this iconography that I'm unaware of.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Riddikulus on February 03, 2010, 01:38:41 AM
I don't know how true this is, but I was told that one couldn't be a priest if one had a tattoo? Any truth in this?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: xuxana on March 15, 2010, 02:55:59 PM
i have small ones on both my right & left ankle but people never comment or notice it in my parish. i'm thinking of having it removed but laser tat removal is way too expensive. i'd rather use that money for other, more important things like food, rent, or charity.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Lauren_Elisse on March 20, 2010, 02:35:41 AM
I wouldn't get the tattoo to show it off or anything, I think it would be a more personal thing, I'm getting the Matthew 20:28 I am with you always even unto the end of the world , quote, even now when I feel the saddest, even the thought of this quote and feeling Christ near me makes me feel very overwhelmed, It should be useful if I ever get alziehmers when I'm older and can't remember it hahaha
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Nazarene on March 20, 2010, 10:28:26 AM
Tattoos are definitely forbidden in Judaism based on this verse:

An incision for a (dead) person you are not to make in your flesh;
Writing of skin-etching you are not to place on yourselves;
I am YHWH! (Leviticus 19:28, The Five Books of Moses, Dr. Everett Fox)

And you shall not make cuttings in your body for a [dead] body, and you shall not inscribe on yourselves any marks. I am the Lord your God. (Leviticus 19:28, LXX)

Nor make a cutting for the dead in thy flesh; nor imprint signatures upon you: I am the Lord. (Leviticus 19:28, Targum Onkelos)

Perhaps there are some Patristic quotes on this verse?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: BoredMeeting on March 20, 2010, 01:25:21 PM
99% of the Orthodox folks I've known-in a very culturally Orthodox environment-would never bother their clergy with this sort of questions, not even with weightier "spiritual" questions.
Fortunately for me, the Orthodox priests that I've know welcome questions from their spiritual children, regardless of their 'weight'.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on April 22, 2010, 02:38:26 AM
I have a few that I got long ago. I'll share this one, hope it isn't too blurry or faded. I used my cell phone to capture the image.

(http://i48.tinypic.com/whz1n9.jpg)

I really like this!  :)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: RoryChristopher on May 16, 2010, 06:25:37 AM
I have not heard anyone bring up the whole concept of an icon tattoo as an icon.

According to the 7Th council, we should not put icons in a lavatory or any place profaned. Well, that's exactly what's going on every time you walk it with an icon of the Theotokos or anyone else. You are there, peeing and pooping, keeping them with you; an act of piety that would make any iconoclast proud. Or Muslim or Talmudist for that matter.

“We must treat the things of God as they are worthy of God,” someone once told me. I completely agree and as one who has a difficult enough time wearing a crucifix in the bedroom (if you know what I mean) I can't relate to the certainty that this is an OK practice.
Holy icons go where we can pray to them, burn incense before them, and venerate them; they are not pop art, decor, or fashion. The whole idea of using the beauty of the Church, –her gifts to redeem our senses– as vanity just seems absurd and I wonder where from this piety really stems.  I can see why one would get a cross = we wear crosses… However, an icon of Christ or a Saint just seems like “baptized” rebelliousness and at very least a practice ignorant of the wisdom and ruling of the Church and Holy Fathers of the 7Th council who suffered to keep icons as holy parts of the life in the Church.

Can you picture the Theotokos sitting under the needle for 12 hours to get a tattoo of St. Simeon? Or a mural of her Son on her back; she lies there topless as the old biker wipes her holy blood off on a rag? This scenario is not coherent with true Christian practice and certainly not an expression of humility or beauty or piety.

If you can imagine this and you are OK with it... –well– good luck.

From the 7Th Council:

"Moreover, that the images of Christ, of the Virgin Mother of God and of the other Saints, are to be had and retained particularly in temples, and that due honour and veneration are to be awarded them; not that any divinity or virtue is believed to be in them, on account of which they are to be worshipped; or that anything is to be asked of them; or that confidence is to be reposed in images, as was of old done by Gentiles, who placed their hope in idols; but because the honour which is shown unto them is referred to the prototypes which they represent; in such wise that by the images which we kiss, and before which we uncover the head, and prostrate ourselves, we adore Christ, and venerate the Saints, whose similitude they bear."

"In the invocation of saints, the veneration of relics, and the sacred use of images, every superstition shall be removed, all filthy lucre be abolished, finally, all lasciviousness be avoided; in such wise that figures shall not be painted or adorned with a wantonness of beauty: nor shall men also pervert the celebration of the saints, and the visitation of relics, into revellings and drunkenness; as if festivals are celebrated to the honour of the saints by luxury and wantonness.  Finally, let so great care and diligence be used by bishops touching these matters, as that there appear nothing disorderly, or unbecomingly or confusedly arranged, nothing profane, nothing indecorous; since holiness becometh the house of God."

I believe misuse or abuse of icons would fit right into that criteria and in my opinion, tattooing icons on one's person is just that.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: ialmisry on May 16, 2010, 06:52:47 AM
I have not heard anyone bring up the whole concept of an icon tattoo as an icon.

According to the 7Th council, we should not put icons in a lavatory or any place profaned. Well, that's exactly what's going on every time you walk it with an icon of the Theotokos or anyone else. You are there, peeing and pooping, keeping them with you; an act of piety that would make any iconoclast proud. Or Muslim or Talmudist for that matter.

“We must treat the things of God as they are worthy of God,” someone once told me. I completely agree and as one who has a difficult enough time wearing a crucifix in the bedroom (if you know what I mean) I can't relate to the certainty that this is an OK practice.
Holy icons go where we can pray to them, burn incense before them, and venerate them; they are not pop art, decor, or fashion. The whole idea of using the beauty of the Church, –her gifts to redeem our senses– as vanity just seems absurd and I wonder where from this piety really stems.  I can see why one would get a cross = we wear crosses… However, an icon of Christ or a Saint just seems like “baptized” rebelliousness and at very least a practice ignorant of the wisdom and ruling of the Church and Holy Fathers of the 7Th council who suffered to keep icons as holy parts of the life in the Church.

Can you picture the Theotokos sitting under the needle for 12 hours to get a tattoo of St. Simeon? Or a mural of her Son on her back; she lies there topless as the old biker wipes her holy blood off on a rag? This scenario is not coherent with true Christian practice and certainly not an expression of humility or beauty or piety.

If you can imagine this and you are OK with it... –well– good luck.

From the 7Th Council:

"Moreover, that the images of Christ, of the Virgin Mother of God and of the other Saints, are to be had and retained particularly in temples, and that due honour and veneration are to be awarded them; not that any divinity or virtue is believed to be in them, on account of which they are to be worshipped; or that anything is to be asked of them; or that confidence is to be reposed in images, as was of old done by Gentiles, who placed their hope in idols; but because the honour which is shown unto them is referred to the prototypes which they represent; in such wise that by the images which we kiss, and before which we uncover the head, and prostrate ourselves, we adore Christ, and venerate the Saints, whose similitude they bear."

"In the invocation of saints, the veneration of relics, and the sacred use of images, every superstition shall be removed, all filthy lucre be abolished, finally, all lasciviousness be avoided; in such wise that figures shall not be painted or adorned with a wantonness of beauty: nor shall men also pervert the celebration of the saints, and the visitation of relics, into revellings and drunkenness; as if festivals are celebrated to the honour of the saints by luxury and wantonness.  Finally, let so great care and diligence be used by bishops touching these matters, as that there appear nothing disorderly, or unbecomingly or confusedly arranged, nothing profane, nothing indecorous; since holiness becometh the house of God."

I believe misuse or abuse of icons would fit right into that criteria and in my opinion, tattooing icons on one's person is just that.

I don't recall in Greece the hooks at the bathroom door on which to hang your baptismal cross before "peeing and pooping."

You are worried about the bedroom: do you sleep in a marital bed?  If not, you have more serious problems.

And you're the one imagining the Theotokos topless.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: HandmaidenofGod on May 16, 2010, 10:07:30 AM
Welcome to the forum RoryChristopher!
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on May 16, 2010, 02:06:00 PM
99% of the Orthodox folks I've known-in a very culturally Orthodox environment-would never bother their clergy with this sort of questions, not even with weightier "spiritual" questions.
A priest is good to go to confess to, ask him for various religious services such as baptisms and burials-but he is not an oracle. Neither is our faith regulated in every minor aspect.



 This seems to be a very prevalent attitude in Romanians that I have known over the years.  And not to pick on Romanians, I have heard Greeks say something similar as well.  But in my limited exposure, "convert" mind, I seem to recall that our spiritual fathers are, far from being oracles, to help us navigate through life's trials, tribulations and even celebrations.  Sure there are questions one wouldn't want to pester your priest with, such as what to have for supper and the like, but if something is troubling you, or you're simply curious about the Ekklesia's view on a subject, why not ask one's priest/spiritual father?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on May 16, 2010, 02:07:11 PM
Welcome to the forum, RoryChristopher!  :)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: RoryChristopher on May 16, 2010, 03:02:03 PM

I don't recall in Greece the hooks at the bathroom door on which to hang your baptismal cross before "peeing and pooping."

You are worried about the bedroom: do you sleep in a marital bed?  If not, you have more serious problems.

And you're the one imagining the Theotokos topless.

The whole conceptual image I tried to portray should have been appauling.
No hooks, you're right... it's a necessities thing. But your comment did not address any of the real issues I posted; rather, you just accused me of a couple things. That's called mud slinging; you did that AND you built a strawman at the same time. You're well on your way to being an brick maker.

And FYI the only woman I have been with was my wife and that was after the crowning.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on February 04, 2011, 12:39:47 AM
I'm honestly surprised by the number of negative votes :)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: SolEX01 on February 04, 2011, 01:12:19 AM
I'm honestly surprised by the number of negative votes :)

19 negative votes out of 58 isn't exactly a resounding majority.   :)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on February 04, 2011, 01:15:32 AM
I'm honestly surprised by the number of negative votes :)

19 negative votes out of 58 isn't exactly a resounding majority.   :)

True. I suppose I just was focusing on a negative answer having the most votes of all the options.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Seafra on June 09, 2011, 01:05:34 PM
hahaha well from the responses i read about self mutilation  i will probably be shunned but i grew up an Army brat and was around many pacific islanders from 4-8 yr old. I saw a lot of scarification and decided i wanted to get a cross when i was older. Not for fashion or vanity partially for self mutilation but as a reminder, though nothing in the slightest bit comparable, of the pain Christ endured for me. but as for tattoos i never was interested in them...


However i have been considering the coptic tradition of getting two small cross tattoos on my wrists...
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: BoredMeeting on June 16, 2011, 05:05:03 PM
hahaha well from the responses i read about self mutilation  i will probably be shunned...
I've seen quite a few tattooed people in Orthodox Church and never saw any of them being "shunned."
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Seafra on June 16, 2011, 05:22:18 PM
hahaha well from the responses i read about self mutilation  i will probably be shunned...
I've seen quite a few tattooed people in Orthodox Church and never saw any of them being "shunned."

well thats not a "tattoo" its a cutting... through the process of skin removal a design is cut into the skin
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Monk Cyprian on June 16, 2011, 06:32:02 PM
IIRC, there is a canon prohibiting self-mutilation.  My apologies for not being able to reference it off the top of my head (contrary to popular opinion, most monks don't sleep with copies of The Rudder under their pillows).  The trick is:  figuring out what exactly that is.  Is a tattoo mutilation, or enhancement?  That's the entire crux.  If a tattoo is mutilation, then it's out.  If it's not, then it's not prohibited.

Considering how many matushka's have pierced ears, and I wouldn't dare accuse them of mutilating their bodies (especially if you've ever had to deal with a fiesty matushka!), there seems to be some room for interpretation on what is mutilation and what isn't.  And it is a common, historical and (IMO) venerable practice amongst the Coptics and Ethiopians.

That being said, amongst Russians there seems to be an assumption that a tattoo marks one as a member of organized crime (the vor v zakone), or at least seriously anti-social like some sort of skin-head gang, so they tend to be less sympathetic towards it.

There was also some scant evidence that the early Celtic Christians continued the practice of tattooing themselves, just with Christian symbols rather than pagan ones, IIRC.  But, I don't think the scholarship is entirely conclusive about that one.  But that's why they were called "Picts"; because they were the "pictured" men, or men with "pictures" on them.

I'm pleasantly surprised that no one has brought up the Old Testament prohibitions against tattoos.  I always cringe when people do that, to be frank.  It betrays a serious lack of understanding of how the Old Testament laws are fulfilled in Christ and frankly don't apply to Christians.  You can't just "cherry pick" OT laws that you like (usually for other people to follow!).  You either follow all of the Law (and be Jewish BTW), or none of it.  If you want to prohibit tattoos based on Leviticus 19:28, then you also have to have fringes on your clothing, a parapet around your roof, keep kosher, keep the Saturday Sabbath and can't shave the sides of your head, amongst other things.  The Law is an all or nothing kind of thing.  It's either all 613 laws, or none.

Now, I personally think one should probably get the blessing of one's spiritual father before getting a tattoo.  If one already has them, well what's done is done, and unless one is rather wealthy, can't be removed.  But, I wouldn't get anymore (I have two) without my spiritual father's blessing, and they would also have to be deeply symbolic and meaningful, rather than just a "pretty picture".

Just my thoughts though.  Your mileage may vary.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: ialmisry on October 15, 2011, 12:18:27 PM
Riyadh forbids tattoos of Christ
Quote
Last year, the Romanian player Mirel Radoi, from the club Al-Hilal (the crescent) kissed the cross tattoo on his arm after scoring a goal. The episode scandalised Muslims.
Go Romania!
http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/homepage/blog-san-pietro-e-dintorni-en/detail/articolo/8909/
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: NicholasMyra on October 12, 2012, 02:57:54 AM
Idea for Western Rite tattoo:

St. Guinefort

(http://chrismusina.squarespace.com/picture/04%20musina%20st%20guinefort.jpg?pictureId=15439604&asGalleryImage=true)

(http://greencanticle.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/st_guinefort.jpg)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: HabteSelassie on October 12, 2012, 02:25:57 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

When I first started attending Ethiopian services, one of my favorite and most delightful experiences was meeting wonderful elderly ladies who were in LA speak "tatted up" :)

(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/53/147897289_7e710e562d.jpg)

Face tattoos, sleeves, hand tattoos, neck tattoos, the works.  In LA unfortunately a lot of folks are getting out of hand, and even in perfectly legitimate careers you find teachers, doctors, civil servants, secretaries, and all kinds of public figures who are tatted up.  Who have sleeves, or neck tattoos, still no face tats outside of jailbirds.  I don't have any ink (I had congo dreads for eight years, that was eclectic enough even for Los Angeles 8) ) but I have literally grown up hanging out with folks in tattoo parlors and getting inked up in people's living rooms.  Tattoos are perfectly normal to me, most of my family have them, and almost all of my friends, and several of my co-workers, and what I lament, many of my underage students ( :( )

The Ethiopian tattoos evolved from several different cultural and political circumstances.  Some folks get them out of purely spiritual and religious motivations, others evolved in the history of slavery and civil wars (the "lip disc" evolved among the Omo people for the same reasons to ward of slave raiders)..  Today it is perfectly acceptable in the Church setting for folks to have a variety of tattoos, for both cultural and spiritual reasons.  I'm not sure if we have any canons specifically forbidding one tattoo design over another, perhaps sister Hiwot can better clarify on this for us.

I would advise for folks who get "Icon" tattoos to think responsibly.  Icons are rightfully kept in revered places, for specific times and settings.  When we put them on our skin, we just might be making our burden too much to carry sometimes, even priests would feel unworthy I imagine of these images on their skin.  On the flip side, for some folks icons on the skin might just keep them out of trouble, but then again, we all sin daily so its a toss up one way or the other..

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Orthodox11 on October 12, 2012, 02:36:15 PM
I would advise for folks who get "Icon" tattoos to think responsibly.  Icons are rightfully kept in revered places, for specific times and settings.  When we put them on our skin, we just might be making our burden too much to carry sometimes, even priests would feel unworthy I imagine of these images on their skin.  On the flip side, for some folks icons on the skin might just keep them out of trouble, but then again, we all sin daily so its a toss up one way or the other.

It's not merely a question of reverence. Icons are devotional objects, and their purpose cannot be served on someone's arms, back, chest, etc.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: NicholasMyra on October 12, 2012, 02:40:43 PM
Icons should not be made into tattoos or put on shirts. We wear crosses, it might be okay to have writing or a cross or symbol of some sort, but icons are not appropriate.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: HabteSelassie on October 12, 2012, 02:43:37 PM
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I would advise for folks who get "Icon" tattoos to think responsibly.  Icons are rightfully kept in revered places, for specific times and settings.  When we put them on our skin, we just might be making our burden too much to carry sometimes, even priests would feel unworthy I imagine of these images on their skin.  On the flip side, for some folks icons on the skin might just keep them out of trouble, but then again, we all sin daily so its a toss up one way or the other.

It's not merely a question of reverence. Icons are devotional objects, and their purpose cannot be served on someone's arms, back, chest, etc.

I agree completely, but on the same token, I can understand the appeal.  In reality is the Cross any different and yet it is a common thing in our lives, and is a common tattoo as well.  I personally do not feel folks should get tattoos of Iconography, and again, I can understand the Byzantine canons/Fathers prohibitions on these.  Further, I don't know a lot of Orthodox who have such, but I have met and know plenty of Catholics and unaffiliated folks who have tats of Jesus or Our Lady (sometimes you see more tattoos of Our Lady of Guadelupe in LA than you do murals and that is saying something!!), and lightening bolts haven't exactly struck them down yet :)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: choy on October 12, 2012, 02:47:39 PM
Can I get a tatoo of ICXC?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: WeldeMikael on October 12, 2012, 02:49:11 PM
Can I get a tatoo of ICXC?

As a non - Coptic, is it okay to have a small cross on the wrist ?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: peacenprayer on October 12, 2012, 04:24:24 PM
I've got three. One on each arm, one on my chest. All from before I was Orthodox so I don't really want them anymore. Removal is as painful as it is expensive, and getting them covered would be considerably cheaper, but likely to be frowned upon. Sucky conundrum, that.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Orthodox11 on October 12, 2012, 04:55:16 PM
Can I get a tatoo of ICXC?

Based on the assumption that tattoos are okay, which is questionable, I don't see why ICXC would be inappropriate.

As a non - Coptic, is it okay to have a small cross on the wrist ?

The Coptic practice is a direct result of their experience of persecution. I really wanted one for a long time, but I think those of us who do not come from that social context should ask ourselves if there really is any reason to get such a tattoo other than needless vanity. I've yet to find a good reason, so I've yet to get one. The late Pope Shenouda III did not have one, and I know many Coptic bishops discourage those living outside the Islamic world from getting them.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: WeldeMikael on October 12, 2012, 04:59:28 PM
That's what I thought too.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on February 23, 2013, 04:51:45 PM
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/s480x480/420351_10151466412600747_1969982113_n.jpg)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: mabsoota on February 23, 2013, 07:05:59 PM
personally, i am a big fan of cross tattoos.
i am also a fan of sterilisation of equipment!
 :)
i have only once seen a coptic priest who did not have a tattoo, so the prohibition must have been somewhere else.
and i think it's fine for others to copy coptic tattoos, but i suggest u get it done by a Christian so it doesn't look weird.
i once asked for a cross henna 'tattoo' when i was having the henna from my friend's wedding.
i didn't realise the henna specialist was muslim (she wasn't hijabi or anything), i only found out after i asked when her cross looked wobbly.
i am glad it wasn't a permanent one!

so check sterility, check you tattooist and be sure you never want to go into a japanese spa
(they don't allow tattoos and you have to go in 100% naked, so u can't hide anything!)
i don't know of any orthodox churches that forbid them.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Ersaia on February 23, 2013, 08:00:41 PM
I have seen small crosses in the face in photos of old women from some greek areas

(http://www.vlahoi.net/gallery/albums/mouseio/tatoo/%C3%93%C3%B4%C3%A1%C3%B5%C3%B1%C3%AF%C3%B4%C3%BD%C3%B0%C3%B9%C3%AC%C3%A1.jpg)

http://www.vlahoi.net/multimedia/gallery.html

as they wrote there they make this tattoo in young girls because muslims took the girls for harems and wanted to abjuring this or wanted when the girls become older in harems to remember that they were christians


btw I just realize how problematic was the "nazi number tattoo" in the Jews


Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Android_Rewster on March 04, 2013, 03:33:05 PM
 This is super old. I just found this on google while searching for the church's opinion on tattoos! haha

 I've been considering gettin the Petrine Cross. Do any of you think people would find this offensive, given the current context of what it's used for in modern death metal bands? :/
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: mabsoota on March 04, 2013, 03:35:35 PM
what is the petrine cross?
sorry, have missed a few of the latest death metal bands due to prior commitments.
 ;)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on March 04, 2013, 03:40:28 PM
what is the petrine cross?

Upside down cross I would assume (they say Peter was crucified upside down)...

As for me, I plan on getting an upside down cross, but it will be more a mirror image of the Russian Orthodox Cross* I already have, not a design by itself. I wouldn't get an upside down cross as a centerpiece or by itself, any more than I would get a swastika in celebration of some noble/peaceful religious use. The symbols have just been too far corrupted IMO, and would cause too much confusion.


* For those who want to argue this-- that's right, there is such a thing as a Russian Orthodox cross. Sorry if you can't wrap your mind around that. Come at me bro.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: mabsoota on March 04, 2013, 03:47:33 PM
why would you want an upside down cross?
(sorry, i am ignorant, naive and almost middle aged...)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: sheenj on March 04, 2013, 03:52:05 PM
why would you want an upside down cross?
(sorry, i am ignorant, naive and almost middle aged...)

I guess if St. Peter is your Patron Saint, seeing as how he was crucified upside down.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Android_Rewster on March 04, 2013, 04:45:28 PM
 The Petrine Cross is symbolically used to represent humility and inadequacy in comparison to Jesus Christ, the perfect sacrifice. :) Peter was hung upside down because he didn't believe he was worthy to die like Christ.

 I have some particular emotional ties to the story and I'd love a reminder that Christ, though sinless, died in my sinful place.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Arachne on March 04, 2013, 04:54:54 PM
I've reached middle age without any ink on me, so it's highly unlikely that I'd decide to get something now... but if I did, a Brigid's cross would be the most suitable. Only I'd have to find an actual, physical cross to take to the artist to copy, because the flash designs I've seen are just tacky.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: mabsoota on March 04, 2013, 06:04:14 PM
arachne, you have 5 years to go in my flawless, well researched international definition of 'middle age' (it used to be '40' but the definition got older as i did!)
 ;)
also i agree it's important not to end up with a tacky design (see my 'reply 108' on this page)

android rewster (can i call u android for short?!),
maybe you could get a normal cross, plus a symbol of peter next to it.
then no one would confuse you with a death metal musician!
i wish u all the best in your tattoo hunt.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on March 04, 2013, 09:01:55 PM
Leviticus 19:28 Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am Jehovah.

I'd take it up with God before you got a tattoo.   It's his temple.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: JamesR on March 04, 2013, 09:31:31 PM
The Church very clearly condemns it, however, I think an exception could be made for the Copts who have to tattoo their children so that they'll remember their faith if the heathen Muslims kidnap them. I'd personally like to get the two Crosses tattooed on my wrists sort of as a way of paying respect to them.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on March 04, 2013, 09:43:47 PM
The Church very clearly condemns it,

Evidence...?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: JamesR on March 04, 2013, 09:46:22 PM
The Church very clearly condemns it,

Evidence...?

My spiritual father told me that the Church does not look too kindly to it and STRONGLY recommended that I don't get any about a year ago.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on March 05, 2013, 01:46:04 PM
Among others, I have this on the inside of my arm/bicep.  :)
Looks like Morals and dogma cover...
(http://novusordoseclorum.com/files/2012/11/Morals-Dogma-by-Albert-Pike.jpg)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: alanscott on March 06, 2013, 09:22:34 AM
Forgive my butting in...  ;)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on March 06, 2013, 09:53:21 AM
Forgive my butting in...  ;)

(http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/240/e/b/laughing_meme_guy_by_vixenwolfie-d485kw0.png)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: NicholasMyra on July 24, 2013, 03:04:58 AM
Thoughts:

(http://s3.amazonaws.com/ink_prod/photos/0028/5099/orlovi_large.jpg)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on July 24, 2013, 03:14:11 AM
Thoughts:

(http://s3.amazonaws.com/ink_prod/photos/0028/5099/orlovi_large.jpg)

Ugly, blasphemous, and totally unnecessary.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Gebre Menfes Kidus on July 24, 2013, 03:30:18 AM
Our Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church retains certain Judaic elements, such as the practice of circumcision and abstinence from pork. However, these are simply cultural traditions, not matters of salvation. For example, even though Ethiopian Orthodox Christians practice circumcision, we nevertheless confess in the Divine Liturgy: “Let us not be circumcised like the Jews, for He who fulfilled the Law has already come.” So, we do not base our salvation on the Old Testament Law, we base our salvation on Christ and His Cross. As we pray:

“The Cross is our power,
the Cross is our strength,
the Cross is our redemption,
the Cross is the salvation of our souls.”


The Old Testament proscription against tattoos was actually a proscription against idolatry. The pagans would tattoo their flesh with markings of their false gods. So God commanded the Israelites to avoid such idolatrous practices. Some Christian cultures use tattoos of the Holy Cross as an identifying statement of their faith. The Muslims used to force Coptic Christians to tattoo Crosses on themselves, and over time, Coptic Christians began to tattoo Crosses on their hands or wrists as a reminder of the persecution that Christians must be prepared to face. Many Ethiopian Christian women have traditionally tattooed Crosses on their foreheads and faces. And many Ethiopian Priests will have a Cross tattooed on their hands.

I got most of may tattoos before I was baptized. After my baptism I got a small Cross tattooed on my hand, and a small Cross tattooed on my neck. My Priest told me this was OK. So, I don’t think tattoos in and of themselves are wrong. The issue is what kind of tattoo you get and why you get it. Certainly tattoos can be a matter of vanity, and vanity is something to be avoided. And certainly it is not good to tattoo the flesh with pagan images. But there is no New Testament teaching or Church law that forbids tattoos that I am aware of.

OK, that is my humble understanding and opinion of the matter. Hope it makes sense.


(http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/2158/xekm.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/827/xekm.png/)



Selam
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Gebre Menfes Kidus on July 24, 2013, 03:32:19 AM
Thoughts:

(http://s3.amazonaws.com/ink_prod/photos/0028/5099/orlovi_large.jpg)

Cool ink. I like it. But what do the eagles represent?



Selam
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on July 24, 2013, 03:38:36 AM
Ugly, blasphemous, and totally unnecessary.

Come now, don't hold back!  :)

What about it is blasphemous?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on July 24, 2013, 03:49:22 AM
Ugly, blasphemous, and totally unnecessary.

Come now, don't hold back!  :)

What about it is blasphemous?

Turning the Christian cross into a lurid badge akin to bikers' colors. And don't get me started on the aggressive phyletism expressed in the composition ...
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Fabio Leite on July 24, 2013, 10:34:04 AM
I think this falls under the subjects of virtue of modesty and of the sin of fear of the world.

Like someone mentioned, earings are a kind of socially accepted piercing. Since we agree that it is acceptable, why not other forms of enhancing the beauty of the body?

And then again, there are earings and earings. Some are beautiful, modest and elegant, others scream vulgarity and attention digging.

We should not condemn a practice based on our tastes only, but also I don't see why, in accepting it, we should think that *every* form of it is acceptable.

Tattoos and piercings should be seen as any other accessory. Yes, of course, there is vanity related to it, just like there is in having large beards, wearing rings, necklaces and still there are ways of doing all this that are acceptable for a Christian life.

My own aesthetique sense sees large tattoos as screams. It's like the person is shouting that at you. Yet, some are really beautiful. I think a "better not" attitude is the right one though. Maybe even piercing the ears is one of those small mistakes so ingrained in our culture that we don't see it for what they are.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: NicholasMyra on July 24, 2013, 10:51:22 PM
Cool ink. I like it. But what do the eagles represent?
Serbia I assume

Ugly, blasphemous, and totally unnecessary.

Come now, don't hold back!  :)

What about it is blasphemous?

Turning the Christian cross into a lurid badge akin to bikers' colors. And don't get me started on the aggressive phyletism expressed in the composition ...

How about this one, LBK:

(http://www.religioustattoos.net/Images/Crosses/cross_164.jpg)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 24, 2013, 11:10:29 PM
Thoughts:

(http://s3.amazonaws.com/ink_prod/photos/0028/5099/orlovi_large.jpg)

Ugly, blasphemous, and totally unnecessary.

Not to mention the iconography is totally whack. That double eagle shows evident Western influence and the bottom cross is clearly uncanonical.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 24, 2013, 11:12:34 PM
Jesus wants you to be cool. He endured crucifixion and death so that you could get crosses tattooed on yourself.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on July 24, 2013, 11:24:11 PM
I've heard of monks on Mt Athos giving pilgrims the opportunity to receive a tattoo of the cross.

That's sort of... er... I take it they don't have autoclaves there on Mount Athos. You see where I'm going with this?  :angel:

It's just what I've heard. I'm sure they would have some way of keeping things clean and sanitary if they do give tattoos.

Quite Obviously, they put Windex on it.


Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on July 24, 2013, 11:45:01 PM
Jesus wants you to be cool. He endured crucifixion and death so that you could get crosses tattooed on yourself.

Well if Jesus died for my sins, and getting a tat is a sin, then Jesus died so that I could get a tat and be forgiven for it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Quinault on July 25, 2013, 12:05:21 AM
I've heard of monks on Mt Athos giving pilgrims the opportunity to receive a tattoo of the cross.

That's sort of... er... I take it they don't have autoclaves there on Mount Athos. You see where I'm going with this?  :angel:

It's just what I've heard. I'm sure they would have some way of keeping things clean and sanitary if they do give tattoos.

Quite Obviously, they put Windex on it.



:laugh: ;D
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Quinault on July 25, 2013, 12:06:35 AM
Thoughts:

(http://s3.amazonaws.com/ink_prod/photos/0028/5099/orlovi_large.jpg)

It's poorly executed IMO. If you are going to get a tattoo, get it done right or don't do it at all.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on July 25, 2013, 12:10:51 AM
It's poorly executed IMO. If you are going to get a tattoo, get it done right or don't do it at all.

Anything in particular?

And I don't especially like or dislike it, I'm just intrigued by the responses.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on July 25, 2013, 12:13:26 AM
I've come to believe (and this is just my opinion) that if you get a tattoo before you become a Christian, that's not a sin.  But if you get a tattoo as a Christian, this is probably a sin because it's not good stewardship of your money.  Having said that, I think that if you're a Christian minority living in a non-Christian country and the tradition is to get a tattoo of a cross to identify yourself, then that's  probably Ok.  I think that before anyone gets a tattoo, you should ask your priest.  Again, this is just my opinion.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on July 25, 2013, 12:14:42 AM
Thoughts:

(http://s3.amazonaws.com/ink_prod/photos/0028/5099/orlovi_large.jpg)

It's poorly executed IMO. If you are going to get a tattoo, get it done right or don't do it at all.

Plus, it's just plain silly.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Quinault on July 25, 2013, 12:22:47 AM
The shading is really strange and random. The style of the eagles versus the cross is very jarring. Stylistically they just don't mesh. The cross is almost cartoon like, whereas the eagles are more old jerry style. The tattoo is done in such a way that the visual perspective is completely off.

I also suspect the cross was done at a completely different time than the eagle. Which again, is done in a completely different style. Various styles can mesh well, this isn't an example of them meshing well at all.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Quinault on July 25, 2013, 12:26:03 AM
Really, the more I look at that tattoo, the worse it looks.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Gebre Menfes Kidus on July 25, 2013, 12:40:33 AM
Jesus wants you to be cool. He endured crucifixion and death so that you could get crosses tattooed on yourself.

Well if Jesus died for my sins, and getting a tat is a sin, then Jesus died so that I could get a tat and be forgiven for it.

+1

It's also weird to me how tattoos are singled out as expressions of vanity or poor stewardship, but most Christians have no qualms about makeup, jewelry, expensive hair coiffeurs, or stylish clothing.


Selam
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: NicholasMyra on July 25, 2013, 12:43:28 AM
It's poorly executed IMO. If you are going to get a tattoo, get it done right or don't do it at all.

Anything in particular?

And I don't especially like or dislike it, I'm just intrigued by the responses.
Asteriktos...

...is that your tattoo?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: NicholasMyra on July 25, 2013, 12:44:17 AM
It's also weird to me how tattoos are singled out as expressions of vanity or poor stewardship, but most Christians have no qualms about makeup, jewelry, expensive hair coiffeurs, or stylish clothing.
Jesus wants you to be cool. He endured crucifixion and death so that you could hang a cross on yourself.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on July 25, 2013, 12:45:13 AM
Jesus wants you to be cool. He endured crucifixion and death so that you could get crosses tattooed on yourself.

Well if Jesus died for my sins, and getting a tat is a sin, then Jesus died so that I could get a tat and be forgiven for it.

+1

It's also weird to me how tattoos are singled out as expressions of vanity or poor stewardship, but most Christians have no qualms about makeup, jewelry, expensive hair coiffeurs, or stylish clothing.


Selam


Ain't that the truth.  I know so many Christians who always wear the latest fashions and expensive jewelry and drive BMW's.  No one drives a Beemer because of it's reliability or engineering; it's purely a status symbol.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on July 25, 2013, 12:53:27 AM
The shading is really strange and random. The style of the eagles versus the cross is very jarring. Stylistically they just don't mesh. The cross is almost cartoon like, whereas the eagles are more old jerry style. The tattoo is done in such a way that the visual perspective is completely off.

I also suspect the cross was done at a completely different time than the eagle. Which again, is done in a completely different style. Various styles can mesh well, this isn't an example of them meshing well at all.

The eagle is so dark and oddly shaded that my terrible addiction to the shows 'tattoo nightmares' and 'ink master' tell me that this has a high likelyhood of either being, or at least looking like a coverup tattoo...
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on July 25, 2013, 01:02:18 AM
It's poorly executed IMO. If you are going to get a tattoo, get it done right or don't do it at all.

Anything in particular?

And I don't especially like or dislike it, I'm just intrigued by the responses.
Asteriktos...

...is that your tattoo?

Nah, I go more for melodrama than nationalism. I have a three bar cross now, and am thinking about getting an upside down/mirror one to match it below, with "Eli Eli lama sabachthani" incorporated.  8)

Also, I have no intention of getting any tats on my calves.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on July 25, 2013, 02:37:41 AM
Jesus wants you to be cool. He endured crucifixion and death so that you could get crosses tattooed on yourself.

Well if Jesus died for my sins, and getting a tat is a sin, then Jesus died so that I could get a tat and be forgiven for it.

+1

It's also weird to me how tattoos are singled out as expressions of vanity or poor stewardship, but most Christians have no qualms about makeup, jewelry, expensive hair coiffeurs, or stylish clothing.


Selam

One's preference in clothes can, and usually does, change, as they age. Makeup is also something that many women wear less of (or it is far more subtle) as they age and mature in mind. Jewelry? Same thing. Many women either tone down the bling of their youth, or stop wearing jewellery altogether (apart from a wedding band, of course), or wear it only on formal or special occasions.

Conversely, a tat is for life. Laser treatment has no guarantee of success. And then there's the little problem of the effects of gravity and other effects of aging, turning one's youthful impulse into something grotesque.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Quinault on July 25, 2013, 03:37:06 AM
The shading is really strange and random. The style of the eagles versus the cross is very jarring. Stylistically they just don't mesh. The cross is almost cartoon like, whereas the eagles are more old jerry style. The tattoo is done in such a way that the visual perspective is completely off.

I also suspect the cross was done at a completely different time than the eagle. Which again, is done in a completely different style. Various styles can mesh well, this isn't an example of them meshing well at all.

The eagle is so dark and oddly shaded that my terrible addiction to the shows 'tattoo nightmares' and 'ink master' tell me that this has a high likelyhood of either being, or at least looking like a coverup tattoo...

I thought it looked like a bad coverup tattoo as well.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Gebre Menfes Kidus on July 25, 2013, 03:53:08 AM
Jesus wants you to be cool. He endured crucifixion and death so that you could get crosses tattooed on yourself.

Well if Jesus died for my sins, and getting a tat is a sin, then Jesus died so that I could get a tat and be forgiven for it.

+1

It's also weird to me how tattoos are singled out as expressions of vanity or poor stewardship, but most Christians have no qualms about makeup, jewelry, expensive hair coiffeurs, or stylish clothing.


Selam

One's preference in clothes can, and usually does, change, as they age. Makeup is also something that many women wear less of (or it is far more subtle) as they age and mature in mind. Jewelry? Same thing. Many women either tone down the bling of their youth, or stop wearing jewellery altogether (apart from a wedding band, of course), or wear it only on formal or special occasions.

Conversely, a tat is for life. Laser treatment has no guarantee of success. And then there's the little problem of the effects of gravity and other effects of aging, turning one's youthful impulse into something grotesque.

That's true. Tattoos are permanent and people should carefully consider the consequences.


Selam
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on July 25, 2013, 03:56:41 AM

Ugly, blasphemous, and totally unnecessary.

Come now, don't hold back!  :)

What about it is blasphemous?

Turning the Christian cross into a lurid badge akin to bikers' colors. And don't get me started on the aggressive phyletism expressed in the composition ...

How about this one, LBK:

(http://www.religioustattoos.net/Images/Crosses/cross_164.jpg)

For those wondering, the script is John 15:13, in Slavonic. Still completely unnecessary. What's wrong with being content with wearing a baptismal cross?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: mabsoota on July 25, 2013, 04:55:09 AM
tattoo is more difficult to steal or remove.
i quite like the slavonic tattoo.
i would just get a cross without writing though
 :angel:
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: IoanC on July 25, 2013, 10:24:20 PM
Some great tattoos I've seen here. I don't think it's a matter of if it's proper, but the impact that it has on the soul. Generally, the Orthodox give up all external aspects in favor of the internal, but not in the sense that the external doesn't matter at all, just that the internal presides over it. Just like monks give up possessions, "normal" clothes, etc. because these things tend to make the soul heavy and keep it on the physical level while adding to the difficulties of earthly life (having to maintain and worry about all that you own).
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on July 25, 2013, 10:44:02 PM
Conversely, a tat is for life. Laser treatment has no guarantee of success. And then there's the little problem of the effects of gravity and other effects of aging, turning one's youthful impulse into something grotesque.

My grandfather had tats, and even into his 80s they looked great. Well, maybe not from a purely aesthetic point of view (especially if that POV is not much in favor of tats to begin with), but I thought they were great.  :angel:
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on July 25, 2013, 10:45:20 PM
The shading is really strange and random. The style of the eagles versus the cross is very jarring. Stylistically they just don't mesh. The cross is almost cartoon like, whereas the eagles are more old jerry style. The tattoo is done in such a way that the visual perspective is completely off.

I also suspect the cross was done at a completely different time than the eagle. Which again, is done in a completely different style. Various styles can mesh well, this isn't an example of them meshing well at all.

Thank you. People often say "that tattoo sucks" or "that tattoo is really good" and I have no idea what they're talking about. I guess I have a certain tone deafness when it comes to evaluating such things. Perhaps this is related to my post above  ;D
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: NicholasMyra on July 26, 2013, 02:09:00 AM
What's wrong with being content with wearing a baptismal cross?
What's wrong with being content with wearing a tattoo?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on July 26, 2013, 04:38:09 AM
What's wrong with being content with wearing a baptismal cross?
What's wrong with being content with wearing a tattoo?

A baptismal cross is a proper and necessary part of one's reception into the Church. A tattoo, particularly the large and lurid sorts featured on this and other threads, is neither necessary nor proper.

The small cross on the hands or foreheads of Copts and other OO is another matter, with a strong history and understandable origin - as others have ably explained. I am not at all critical of this practice.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Bianconeri on August 26, 2013, 09:17:45 PM
Here are my tattoos
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Gebre Menfes Kidus on August 26, 2013, 09:32:23 PM
Here are my tattoos


I like the first one especially. Help me with my Greek. The top word is "Orthodoxia"? What is the bottom word?


Selam
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: augustin717 on August 26, 2013, 09:43:29 PM
I got a few friendly taunts about not having a tatoo, since most people I know around here have some. I think it's because it won't look all that good in the old age. But then again, as a friend said, in the old age nobody will care about how it looks anymore, anyways. So, in conclusion, at least get a cool one.
Tattooing though is no longer socially transgressive. it has been tamed and tattoo parlors or whatever they are called, are a mark of gentrification, most often.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Bianconeri on August 26, 2013, 09:45:53 PM
Here are my tattoos


I like the first one especially. Help me with my Greek. The top word is "Orthodoxia"? What is the bottom word?


Selam

It is thanatos, death. It is written Orthodoxy or Death  ;)  Wa salam.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Romaios on August 26, 2013, 09:47:43 PM
I thought it read "Orthodoxy or tatoos".  ;D
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Bianconeri on August 26, 2013, 09:50:21 PM
I thought it read "Orthodoxy or tatoos".  ;D

Haha being romanian i could have made a mystake  ;D
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Gebre Menfes Kidus on August 26, 2013, 10:08:59 PM
Here are my tattoos


I like the first one especially. Help me with my Greek. The top word is "Orthodoxia"? What is the bottom word?


Selam

It is thanatos, death. It is written Orthodoxy or Death  ;)  Wa salam.

Ahh, nice! Thank you.


Selam
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on August 26, 2013, 10:25:28 PM
Here are my tattoos

The eagle biting a cross is highly disrespectful, bordering on blasphemy.  >:( >:( >:(
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Romaios on August 26, 2013, 10:30:24 PM
Here are my tattoos

The eagle biting a cross is highly disrespectful, bordering on blasphemy.  >:( >:( >:(

I believe it comes from our national coat of arms:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/70/Coat_of_arms_of_Romania.svg/250px-Coat_of_arms_of_Romania.svg.png)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on August 26, 2013, 10:34:23 PM
Here are my tattoos

The eagle biting a cross is highly disrespectful, bordering on blasphemy.  >:( >:( >:(

I believe it's a detail of our national coat of arms:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/70/Coat_of_arms_of_Romania.svg/250px-Coat_of_arms_of_Romania.svg.png)

The version in the tattoo is little more than a belligerent biker tat with a cross, the product of immature adolescence. It is far removed from the national crest.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Bianconeri on August 26, 2013, 10:35:33 PM
Here are my tattoos

The eagle biting a cross is highly disrespectful, bordering on blasphemy.  >:( >:( >:(

I believe it comes from our national coat of arms:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/70/Coat_of_arms_of_Romania.svg/250px-Coat_of_arms_of_Romania.svg.png)

Yes it comes from it, our symbol since at least the 14th century. But maybe will he say that our coat of arms is bordering on blasphemy too  ;D  And i'm not a biker at all lol. The flaming under it actually reads nihil sine deo.

Quote
the product of immature adolescence

You know, it is kind of adolescent to pretext a biker style and a far deviation from the coat of arms(that obviously you didnt know about for calling it "blasphemy") just not to admit that you just dont like tattoos   ;)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: William on August 26, 2013, 11:05:54 PM
Do tats on the shoulder stretch if you gain shoulder muscle?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Shiny on August 27, 2013, 01:41:07 AM
Here are my tattoos

The eagle biting a cross is highly disrespectful, bordering on blasphemy.  >:( >:( >:(
Nothing like a little nationalism with Orthodoxy. It's the American thing to do, LBK...you wouldn't understand...
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on August 27, 2013, 02:48:33 AM
Here are my tattoos

The eagle biting a cross is highly disrespectful, bordering on blasphemy.  >:( >:( >:(
Nothing like a little nationalism with Orthodoxy. It's the American thing to do, LBK...you wouldn't understand...

American? Heh. Tell that to the militant Serbs, Russians, Greeks, Romanians, etc who indulge in this idiotic defacement of their bodies and debasement of Orthodoxy. Phyletism is phyletism, no matter where you live.  :P ::)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Gebre Menfes Kidus on March 27, 2014, 12:41:42 AM
1,300-year-old Egyptian mummy had tattoo of Archangel Michael


http://www.foxnews.com/science/2014/03/26/scientists-unearth-new-secrets-from-ancient-mummy/


Selam
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Nephi on March 27, 2014, 03:25:03 AM
1,300-year-old Egyptian mummy had tattoo of Archangel Michael


http://www.foxnews.com/science/2014/03/26/scientists-unearth-new-secrets-from-ancient-mummy/


Selam

Interesting, but the article doesn't say why any of them think it was the Archangel and not any other Michael, or why they even were sure it was a Christian usage.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on March 27, 2014, 03:50:56 AM
1,300-year-old Egyptian mummy had tattoo of Archangel Michael


http://www.foxnews.com/science/2014/03/26/scientists-unearth-new-secrets-from-ancient-mummy/


Selam

Interesting, but the article doesn't say why any of them think it was the Archangel and not any other Michael, or why they even were sure it was a Christian usage.

Indeed.
Might just be proof of the very first violation of the 'never get a romantic interests name inked on you' rule. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: vamrat on March 27, 2014, 04:37:21 PM
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQbtRtb9ktMErONbjI-_KPxv4o2O9p4wudBg9n8KZPHMFhv72i_)

I got this one a few weeks ago while in a drunken stupor.  I can't remember if I asked them to make it Peewee Herman or Klaus Nomi.  I really shouldn't drink rumplemintz anymore.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Theophania on March 27, 2014, 07:39:33 PM
I do have two tattoos - one I got in 2005, the other 2009, years before I became Orthodox. Would I get another? I don't know. I doubt it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: NicholasMyra on March 27, 2014, 08:43:32 PM
Jesus wants you to be cool. He endured crucifixion and death so that you could get crosses tattooed on yourself.

Well if Jesus died for my sins, and getting a tat is a sin, then Jesus died so that I could get a tat and be forgiven for it.

Only if you scrape it off like Russell Crowe in Gladiator.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Gebre Menfes Kidus on March 27, 2014, 09:05:26 PM
1,300-year-old Egyptian mummy had tattoo of Archangel Michael


http://www.foxnews.com/science/2014/03/26/scientists-unearth-new-secrets-from-ancient-mummy/


Selam

Interesting, but the article doesn't say why any of them think it was the Archangel and not any other Michael, or why they even were sure it was a Christian usage.


From the article:

There was a sizable Christian population in Egypt in the 700s, perhaps close to a majority of the population,” said Maureen Tilley, professor of theology at Fordham University in New York. 

“Like Greeks and Romans across the Mediterranean, the portion of the population that was literate was fascinated by the shapes of letters and delighted in making designs with letters in names. Hence, we have the odd shape of the tattoo composed of the letters.”

Placing the name of a powerful heavenly protector on one's body by a tattoo or amulet was very common in antiquity, Tilley told Foxnews.com. “Christian women who were pregnant often placed amulets with divine or angelic names on bands on their abdomens to insure a safe delivery of their child,” she said.

“Placing the name on the inner thigh, as with this mummy, may have had some meaning for the hopes of childbirth or protection against sexual violation, as in ‘This body is claimed and protected.’ Michael is an obvious identity for a tattoo, as this is the most powerful of angels.”

Christian Gnostics, religious cultists in that era, were especially interested in the names and functions of intermediary beings between humans and the divine, Tilley noted.

The Gospel of Truth and the Book of Enoch were both popular among them and have much about an angel whose story sounds very much like that of Archangel Michael in many Christian stories, the angel who led the heavenly army against Satan and the Fallen Angels.”

Selam
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on March 27, 2014, 09:17:00 PM
That still says 'they think it is...'

and not 'we believe it is, because there is this evidence of other tattooing, or other name talisman-ing, in this form.....'


Simply because gnostics in particular believed in the power of the name, and wore amulets....does not necessarily equate to 'tattooed onto them'

now it also doesn't not equate that....it's just not overwhelming 'evidence' in my opinion.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: JamesR on March 27, 2014, 10:13:56 PM
There isn't a single Canon, Church Father, or Bible verse that prohibits tattoos and until evidence from the aforementioned sources can be provided, I don't care what a bunch of anti-tattoo "genuine" or whatever Orthodox people say.

It's a matter of personal discernment. Tattoos shouldn't become a vanity, but at the same time, I see nothing wrong with them in moderation and done reasonably. Until you're willing to stop wearing all makeup, possess only one pair of clothing, and get rid of all your jewelry and non-essential adornment, you have no right to talk.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: JamesR on March 27, 2014, 10:13:56 PM
What's wrong with being content with wearing a baptismal cross?

Well for one it often gets in the way or becomes a liability at certain times.

I cannot wear it while doing manual labour due to the risk of it getting broken; same goes for sports and amusement parks. You also cannot wear it in the shower or wear it to bed due to the risk of it breaking or getting rust.

With a tattoo you can really never lose it, and it's lower maintenance.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on March 27, 2014, 10:19:07 PM
There isn't a single Canon, Church Father, or Bible verse that prohibits tattoos and until evidence from the aforementioned sources can be provided, I don't care what a bunch of anti-tattoo "genuine" or whatever Orthodox people say.

It's a matter of personal discernment. Tattoos shouldn't become a vanity, but at the same time, I see nothing wrong with them in moderation and done reasonably. Until you're willing to stop wearing all makeup, possess only one pair of clothing, and get rid of all your jewelry and non-essential adornment, you have no right to talk.
To whom are you talking, James? Since this thread was resurrected a few days ago, no one has argued against the wearing of tattoos. So why the need to battle the windmills?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on March 27, 2014, 10:27:47 PM
Quote
I cannot wear it while doing manual labour due to the risk of it getting broken; same goes for sports and amusement parks.

Complete nonsense. If you're so concerned about your cross being damaged in such circumstances, then take it off its chain and pin it to the inside of your clothes.

Quote
You also cannot wear it in the shower or wear it to bed due to the risk of it breaking or getting rust.

Gold alloys don't rust. Sterling silver doesn't rust. Neither does stainless steel, a material used at times for baptismal crosses as a less costly alternative. And millions upon millions of people wear their crosses to bed, without any problem. A good-quality box-chain or snake chain with soldered clasp joints will not break as a result of movement in sleep.

Admit it, James. You're clinging to flimsy excuses to "justify" your getting an unnecessary tattoo. You're fooling no-one.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Gebre Menfes Kidus on March 27, 2014, 10:33:26 PM
That still says 'they think it is...'

and not 'we believe it is, because there is this evidence of other tattooing, or other name talisman-ing, in this form.....'


Simply because gnostics in particular believed in the power of the name, and wore amulets....does not necessarily equate to 'tattooed onto them'

now it also doesn't not equate that....it's just not overwhelming 'evidence' in my opinion.

I just found it interesting and thought it was appropriate for this thread. It doesn't verify or nullify my own personal opinion about tattoos.


Selam
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on March 27, 2014, 11:26:55 PM
You also cannot wear it in the shower or wear it to bed due to the risk of it breaking or getting rust.



What..your baptismal cross is iron?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on March 28, 2014, 12:10:01 AM
Quote
I cannot wear it while doing manual labour due to the risk of it getting broken; same goes for sports and amusement parks.

Complete nonsense. If you're so concerned about your cross being damaged in such circumstances, then take it off its chain and pin it to the inside of your clothes.

Quote
You also cannot wear it in the shower or wear it to bed due to the risk of it breaking or getting rust.

Gold alloys don't rust. Sterling silver doesn't rust. Neither does stainless steel, a material used at times for baptismal crosses as a less costly alternative. And millions upon millions of people wear their crosses to bed, without any problem. A good-quality box-chain or snake chain with soldered clasp joints will not break as a result of movement in sleep.

Admit it, James. You're clinging to flimsy excuses to "justify" your getting an unnecessary tattoo. You're fooling no-one.
And you, LBK, are devising flimsy excuses to justify intruding into business that is not yours to address. If James wants to get a tattoo, then let him get a tattoo. You aren't his mother, so stop acting like you are.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Maria on March 28, 2014, 12:14:16 AM
What's wrong with being content with wearing a baptismal cross?

Well for one it often gets in the way or becomes a liability at certain times.

I cannot wear it while doing manual labour due to the risk of it getting broken; same goes for sports and amusement parks. You also cannot wear it in the shower or wear it to bed due to the risk of it breaking or getting rust.

With a tattoo you can really never lose it, and it's lower maintenance.

Didn't you just get an Orthodox Cross tatooed on your wrist with pictures to prove it?
Or was that someone else?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: JamesR on March 28, 2014, 12:17:30 AM
Complete nonsense. If you're so concerned about your cross being damaged in such circumstances, then take it off its chain and pin it to the inside of your clothes.

My Cross doesn't have a pin.

Quote
Gold alloys don't rust. Sterling silver doesn't rust. Neither does stainless steel, a material used at times for baptismal crosses as a less costly alternative.

My Baptismal Cross is a $40, low-quality St. Olga Cross from the Joy of All Who Sorrow which carries more sentimental value and durability than physical. I'm not going to risk ruining it.

Quote
And millions upon millions of people wear their crosses to bed, without any problem.

I actually know several people whose chains have busted due to sleeping in them.

Quote
A good-quality box-chain or snake chain with soldered clasp joints will not break as a result of movement in sleep.

Again, tell that to my $40 Cross.

Quote
Admit it, James. You're clinging to flimsy excuses to "justify" your getting an unnecessary tattoo. You're fooling no-one.

I never brought insults into this, nor did I bring up my own tattoo. But since you insist on bringing it up, then why don't you respond to my previous post? Cite me a single Bible verse, Canon, or Patristic source that prohibits tattoos. I've asked you this several times in the past and you've never responded to it. I believe even Peter once asked you, in Green text, to provide proof for your assertions. Until I see evidence that otherwise prohibits tattoos, I find no reason to deem it "unnecessary" nor to lament over it in guilt. It means much to me, helps me grow in my faith, and it's not vain because it was a gift given to me. Being socially taboo does not necessarily equate being religiously prohibited or evil.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: JamesR on March 28, 2014, 12:17:30 AM
There isn't a single Canon, Church Father, or Bible verse that prohibits tattoos and until evidence from the aforementioned sources can be provided, I don't care what a bunch of anti-tattoo "genuine" or whatever Orthodox people say.

It's a matter of personal discernment. Tattoos shouldn't become a vanity, but at the same time, I see nothing wrong with them in moderation and done reasonably. Until you're willing to stop wearing all makeup, possess only one pair of clothing, and get rid of all your jewelry and non-essential adornment, you have no right to talk.
To whom are you talking, James? Since this thread was resurrected a few days ago, no one has argued against the wearing of tattoos. So why the need to battle the windmills?

To whomever it may concern. I was just stirring the pot. I saw the topic had been resurrected and felt like making a statement.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on March 28, 2014, 12:22:18 AM
Quote
I cannot wear it while doing manual labour due to the risk of it getting broken; same goes for sports and amusement parks.

Complete nonsense. If you're so concerned about your cross being damaged in such circumstances, then take it off its chain and pin it to the inside of your clothes.

Quote
You also cannot wear it in the shower or wear it to bed due to the risk of it breaking or getting rust.

Gold alloys don't rust. Sterling silver doesn't rust. Neither does stainless steel, a material used at times for baptismal crosses as a less costly alternative. And millions upon millions of people wear their crosses to bed, without any problem. A good-quality box-chain or snake chain with soldered clasp joints will not break as a result of movement in sleep.

Admit it, James. You're clinging to flimsy excuses to "justify" your getting an unnecessary tattoo. You're fooling no-one.
And you, LBK, are devising flimsy excuses to justify intruding into business that is not yours to address. If James wants to get a tattoo, then let him get a tattoo. You aren't his mother, so stop acting like you are.

Flimsy excuse? Apart from the clear historical practice of Copts and OO getting small cross tattoos (to prevent them from being mistaken for Moslems, as well as a courageous proclamation of their faith in oppressive societies), Orthodoxy has unequivocally frowned upon this form of "decoration".
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on March 28, 2014, 12:26:12 AM
Quote
I cannot wear it while doing manual labour due to the risk of it getting broken; same goes for sports and amusement parks.

Complete nonsense. If you're so concerned about your cross being damaged in such circumstances, then take it off its chain and pin it to the inside of your clothes.

Quote
You also cannot wear it in the shower or wear it to bed due to the risk of it breaking or getting rust.

Gold alloys don't rust. Sterling silver doesn't rust. Neither does stainless steel, a material used at times for baptismal crosses as a less costly alternative. And millions upon millions of people wear their crosses to bed, without any problem. A good-quality box-chain or snake chain with soldered clasp joints will not break as a result of movement in sleep.

Admit it, James. You're clinging to flimsy excuses to "justify" your getting an unnecessary tattoo. You're fooling no-one.
And you, LBK, are devising flimsy excuses to justify intruding into business that is not yours to address. If James wants to get a tattoo, then let him get a tattoo. You aren't his mother, so stop acting like you are.

Flimsy excuse? Apart from the clear historical practice of Copts and OO getting small cross tattoos (to prevent them from being mistaken for Moslems, as well as a courageous proclamation of their faith in oppressive societies), Orthodoxy has unequivocally frowned upon this form of "decoration".
But if James wants to get a tattoo, how is that any of your damn business? He clearly doesn't want your opinion on the matter.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on March 28, 2014, 12:29:28 AM
Quote
My Cross doesn't have a pin.

No cross does. You've heard of safety pins, haven't you? They do come in suitably small sizes, and should be available at your local supermarket.

Quote
My Baptismal Cross is a $40, low-quality St. Olga Cross from the Joy of All Who Sorrow which carries more sentimental value and durability than physical. I'm not going to risk ruining it.

I've seen stainless steel crosses and even sterling silver crosses going for less than $40. Your excuses are pathetic.

Quote
I actually know several people whose chains have busted due to sleeping in them.

Nine times out of ten, it is not the chain that breaks, but the loop of the clasp which joins onto the chain if it is left unsoldered. A box-chain or snake chain is almost impossible to break.

Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on March 28, 2014, 12:31:09 AM
Quote
I cannot wear it while doing manual labour due to the risk of it getting broken; same goes for sports and amusement parks.

Complete nonsense. If you're so concerned about your cross being damaged in such circumstances, then take it off its chain and pin it to the inside of your clothes.

Quote
You also cannot wear it in the shower or wear it to bed due to the risk of it breaking or getting rust.

Gold alloys don't rust. Sterling silver doesn't rust. Neither does stainless steel, a material used at times for baptismal crosses as a less costly alternative. And millions upon millions of people wear their crosses to bed, without any problem. A good-quality box-chain or snake chain with soldered clasp joints will not break as a result of movement in sleep.

Admit it, James. You're clinging to flimsy excuses to "justify" your getting an unnecessary tattoo. You're fooling no-one.
And you, LBK, are devising flimsy excuses to justify intruding into business that is not yours to address. If James wants to get a tattoo, then let him get a tattoo. You aren't his mother, so stop acting like you are.

Flimsy excuse? Apart from the clear historical practice of Copts and OO getting small cross tattoos (to prevent them from being mistaken for Moslems, as well as a courageous proclamation of their faith in oppressive societies), Orthodoxy has unequivocally frowned upon this form of "decoration".
But if James wants to get a tattoo, how is that any of your damn business? He clearly doesn't want your opinion on the matter.

He doesn't want anyone's opinion on any matter, if it contradicts his views. That much should be obvious from his posting history.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on March 28, 2014, 12:34:07 AM
Quote
I cannot wear it while doing manual labour due to the risk of it getting broken; same goes for sports and amusement parks.

Complete nonsense. If you're so concerned about your cross being damaged in such circumstances, then take it off its chain and pin it to the inside of your clothes.

Quote
You also cannot wear it in the shower or wear it to bed due to the risk of it breaking or getting rust.

Gold alloys don't rust. Sterling silver doesn't rust. Neither does stainless steel, a material used at times for baptismal crosses as a less costly alternative. And millions upon millions of people wear their crosses to bed, without any problem. A good-quality box-chain or snake chain with soldered clasp joints will not break as a result of movement in sleep.

Admit it, James. You're clinging to flimsy excuses to "justify" your getting an unnecessary tattoo. You're fooling no-one.
And you, LBK, are devising flimsy excuses to justify intruding into business that is not yours to address. If James wants to get a tattoo, then let him get a tattoo. You aren't his mother, so stop acting like you are.

Flimsy excuse? Apart from the clear historical practice of Copts and OO getting small cross tattoos (to prevent them from being mistaken for Moslems, as well as a courageous proclamation of their faith in oppressive societies), Orthodoxy has unequivocally frowned upon this form of "decoration".
But if James wants to get a tattoo, how is that any of your damn business? He clearly doesn't want your opinion on the matter.

He doesn't want anyone's opinion on any matter, if it contradicts his views. That much should be obvious from his posting history.
And you don't like anyone who challenges your self-proclaimed right to tell others how to live their lives. That much should be obvious from your posting history.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: NicholasMyra on March 28, 2014, 12:42:32 AM
Your excuses are pathetic.
Read what you wrote. You are acting out of line.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on March 28, 2014, 12:42:53 AM
Quote
I cannot wear it while doing manual labour due to the risk of it getting broken; same goes for sports and amusement parks.

Complete nonsense. If you're so concerned about your cross being damaged in such circumstances, then take it off its chain and pin it to the inside of your clothes.

Quote
You also cannot wear it in the shower or wear it to bed due to the risk of it breaking or getting rust.

Gold alloys don't rust. Sterling silver doesn't rust. Neither does stainless steel, a material used at times for baptismal crosses as a less costly alternative. And millions upon millions of people wear their crosses to bed, without any problem. A good-quality box-chain or snake chain with soldered clasp joints will not break as a result of movement in sleep.

Admit it, James. You're clinging to flimsy excuses to "justify" your getting an unnecessary tattoo. You're fooling no-one.
And you, LBK, are devising flimsy excuses to justify intruding into business that is not yours to address. If James wants to get a tattoo, then let him get a tattoo. You aren't his mother, so stop acting like you are.

Flimsy excuse? Apart from the clear historical practice of Copts and OO getting small cross tattoos (to prevent them from being mistaken for Moslems, as well as a courageous proclamation of their faith in oppressive societies), Orthodoxy has unequivocally frowned upon this form of "decoration".
But if James wants to get a tattoo, how is that any of your damn business? He clearly doesn't want your opinion on the matter.

He doesn't want anyone's opinion on any matter, if it contradicts his views. That much should be obvious from his posting history.
And you don't like anyone who challenges your self-proclaimed right to tell others how to live their lives. That much should be obvious from your posting history.

Spare me your indignation.

James' acquisition of a tattoo is hardly private knowledge. It was he who posted about it, he who stated the reason behind getting it (which would be a matter most people would want to keep to themselves), and he posted a picture of it for all the world to see.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on March 28, 2014, 12:46:04 AM
Quote
I cannot wear it while doing manual labour due to the risk of it getting broken; same goes for sports and amusement parks.

Complete nonsense. If you're so concerned about your cross being damaged in such circumstances, then take it off its chain and pin it to the inside of your clothes.

Quote
You also cannot wear it in the shower or wear it to bed due to the risk of it breaking or getting rust.

Gold alloys don't rust. Sterling silver doesn't rust. Neither does stainless steel, a material used at times for baptismal crosses as a less costly alternative. And millions upon millions of people wear their crosses to bed, without any problem. A good-quality box-chain or snake chain with soldered clasp joints will not break as a result of movement in sleep.

Admit it, James. You're clinging to flimsy excuses to "justify" your getting an unnecessary tattoo. You're fooling no-one.
And you, LBK, are devising flimsy excuses to justify intruding into business that is not yours to address. If James wants to get a tattoo, then let him get a tattoo. You aren't his mother, so stop acting like you are.

Flimsy excuse? Apart from the clear historical practice of Copts and OO getting small cross tattoos (to prevent them from being mistaken for Moslems, as well as a courageous proclamation of their faith in oppressive societies), Orthodoxy has unequivocally frowned upon this form of "decoration".
But if James wants to get a tattoo, how is that any of your damn business? He clearly doesn't want your opinion on the matter.

He doesn't want anyone's opinion on any matter, if it contradicts his views. That much should be obvious from his posting history.
And you don't like anyone who challenges your self-proclaimed right to tell others how to live their lives. That much should be obvious from your posting history.

Spare me your indignation.
Just matching your indignation with mine.

James' acquisition of a tattoo is hardly private knowledge. It was he who posted about it, he who stated the reason behind getting it (which would be a matter most people would want to keep to themselves), and he posted a picture of it for all the world to see.
That fact doesn't matter. What does matter is that he also stated very explicitly that he doesn't want your opinion on his choice.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on March 28, 2014, 12:49:01 AM
Quote
I cannot wear it while doing manual labour due to the risk of it getting broken; same goes for sports and amusement parks.

Complete nonsense. If you're so concerned about your cross being damaged in such circumstances, then take it off its chain and pin it to the inside of your clothes.

Quote
You also cannot wear it in the shower or wear it to bed due to the risk of it breaking or getting rust.

Gold alloys don't rust. Sterling silver doesn't rust. Neither does stainless steel, a material used at times for baptismal crosses as a less costly alternative. And millions upon millions of people wear their crosses to bed, without any problem. A good-quality box-chain or snake chain with soldered clasp joints will not break as a result of movement in sleep.

Admit it, James. You're clinging to flimsy excuses to "justify" your getting an unnecessary tattoo. You're fooling no-one.
And you, LBK, are devising flimsy excuses to justify intruding into business that is not yours to address. If James wants to get a tattoo, then let him get a tattoo. You aren't his mother, so stop acting like you are.

Flimsy excuse? Apart from the clear historical practice of Copts and OO getting small cross tattoos (to prevent them from being mistaken for Moslems, as well as a courageous proclamation of their faith in oppressive societies), Orthodoxy has unequivocally frowned upon this form of "decoration".
But if James wants to get a tattoo, how is that any of your damn business? He clearly doesn't want your opinion on the matter.

He doesn't want anyone's opinion on any matter, if it contradicts his views. That much should be obvious from his posting history.
And you don't like anyone who challenges your self-proclaimed right to tell others how to live their lives. That much should be obvious from your posting history.

Spare me your indignation.
Just matching your indignation with mine.

James' acquisition of a tattoo is hardly private knowledge. It was he who posted about it, he who stated the reason behind getting it (which would be a matter most people would want to keep to themselves), and he posted a picture of it for all the world to see.
That fact doesn't matter. What does matter is that he also stated very explicitly that he doesn't want your opinion on his choice.

This is a public section of the forum, where all members are allowed to post.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on March 28, 2014, 12:50:06 AM


James' acquisition of a tattoo is hardly private knowledge. It was he who posted about it, he who stated the reason behind getting it (which would be a matter most people would want to keep to themselves), and he posted a picture of it for all the world to see.
That fact doesn't matter. What does matter is that he also stated very explicitly that he doesn't want your opinion on his choice.

All other things aside....I was not aware we could post something here and then dictate the opinions given on that post.  Seems a bit difficult to stop folks from opining.

One can of course not accept that opinion, and not take it to heart, but to say 'i do not want that opinion', that is basically only possible by -not- opening one's self up to it by not posting.

Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on March 28, 2014, 12:51:43 AM
Quote
I cannot wear it while doing manual labour due to the risk of it getting broken; same goes for sports and amusement parks.

Complete nonsense. If you're so concerned about your cross being damaged in such circumstances, then take it off its chain and pin it to the inside of your clothes.

Quote
You also cannot wear it in the shower or wear it to bed due to the risk of it breaking or getting rust.

Gold alloys don't rust. Sterling silver doesn't rust. Neither does stainless steel, a material used at times for baptismal crosses as a less costly alternative. And millions upon millions of people wear their crosses to bed, without any problem. A good-quality box-chain or snake chain with soldered clasp joints will not break as a result of movement in sleep.

Admit it, James. You're clinging to flimsy excuses to "justify" your getting an unnecessary tattoo. You're fooling no-one.
And you, LBK, are devising flimsy excuses to justify intruding into business that is not yours to address. If James wants to get a tattoo, then let him get a tattoo. You aren't his mother, so stop acting like you are.

Flimsy excuse? Apart from the clear historical practice of Copts and OO getting small cross tattoos (to prevent them from being mistaken for Moslems, as well as a courageous proclamation of their faith in oppressive societies), Orthodoxy has unequivocally frowned upon this form of "decoration".
But if James wants to get a tattoo, how is that any of your damn business? He clearly doesn't want your opinion on the matter.

He doesn't want anyone's opinion on any matter, if it contradicts his views. That much should be obvious from his posting history.
And you don't like anyone who challenges your self-proclaimed right to tell others how to live their lives. That much should be obvious from your posting history.

Spare me your indignation.
Just matching your indignation with mine.

James' acquisition of a tattoo is hardly private knowledge. It was he who posted about it, he who stated the reason behind getting it (which would be a matter most people would want to keep to themselves), and he posted a picture of it for all the world to see.
That fact doesn't matter. What does matter is that he also stated very explicitly that he doesn't want your opinion on his choice.

This is a public section of the forum, where all members are allowed to post.
Yes, this is a public section of the forum, where all members are allowed to post. You are allowed to dictate to others how they are to live their lives, and I'm allowed to tell you to mind your own business. It works both ways, LBK.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Mor Ephrem on March 28, 2014, 12:53:26 AM
What's wrong with being content with wearing a baptismal cross?

Well for one it often gets in the way or becomes a liability at certain times.

I cannot wear it while doing manual labour due to the risk of it getting broken; same goes for sports and amusement parks. You also cannot wear it in the shower or wear it to bed due to the risk of it breaking or getting rust.

With a tattoo you can really never lose it, and it's lower maintenance.

Or you can buy a simpler cross to wear regularly.  They make them out of wood, leather, prayer rope knots, etc.  It's been a long time since I wore a cross made of some sort of metal.  These days I wear a leather cross most often, but I have at least one of the other two types I mentioned.    
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on March 28, 2014, 12:54:21 AM


James' acquisition of a tattoo is hardly private knowledge. It was he who posted about it, he who stated the reason behind getting it (which would be a matter most people would want to keep to themselves), and he posted a picture of it for all the world to see.
That fact doesn't matter. What does matter is that he also stated very explicitly that he doesn't want your opinion on his choice.

All other things aside....I was not aware we could post something here and then dictate the opinions given on that post.  Seems a bit difficult to stop folks from opining.

One can of course not accept that opinion, and not take it to heart, but to say 'i do not want that opinion', that is basically only possible by -not- opening one's self up to it by not posting.



Precisely, Denise. Precisely.

For someone to wish to dictate who can and cannot opine on a matter on a public forum is tantamount to censorship and an obstacle to free speech.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: SolEX01 on March 28, 2014, 12:56:08 AM


James' acquisition of a tattoo is hardly private knowledge. It was he who posted about it, he who stated the reason behind getting it (which would be a matter most people would want to keep to themselves), and he posted a picture of it for all the world to see.
That fact doesn't matter. What does matter is that he also stated very explicitly that he doesn't want your opinion on his choice.

All other things aside....I was not aware we could post something here and then dictate the opinions given on that post.  Seems a bit difficult to stop folks from opining.

One can of course not accept that opinion, and not take it to heart, but to say 'i do not want that opinion', that is basically only possible by -not- opening one's self up to it by not posting.



Precisely, Denise. Precisely.

For someone to wish to dictate who can and cannot opine on a matter on a public forum is tantamount to censorship and an obstacle to free speech.

You're being "stirred" by JamesR.  It's the Lenten season, do not allow others to stir your passions.  Let JamesR be.   :)

To whomever it may concern. I was just stirring the pot. I saw the topic had been resurrected and felt like making a statement.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on March 28, 2014, 12:56:23 AM


James' acquisition of a tattoo is hardly private knowledge. It was he who posted about it, he who stated the reason behind getting it (which would be a matter most people would want to keep to themselves), and he posted a picture of it for all the world to see.
That fact doesn't matter. What does matter is that he also stated very explicitly that he doesn't want your opinion on his choice.

All other things aside....I was not aware we could post something here and then dictate the opinions given on that post.  Seems a bit difficult to stop folks from opining.

One can of course not accept that opinion, and not take it to heart, but to say 'i do not want that opinion', that is basically only possible by -not- opening one's self up to it by not posting.



Precisely, Denise. Precisely.

For someone to wish to dictate who can and cannot opine on a matter on a public forum is tantamount to censorship and an obstacle to free speech.
No one's forbidding you to opine on the matter, LBK, so please don't raise this cry of censorship.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on March 28, 2014, 12:56:40 AM
Quote
I cannot wear it while doing manual labour due to the risk of it getting broken; same goes for sports and amusement parks.

Complete nonsense. If you're so concerned about your cross being damaged in such circumstances, then take it off its chain and pin it to the inside of your clothes.

Quote
You also cannot wear it in the shower or wear it to bed due to the risk of it breaking or getting rust.

Gold alloys don't rust. Sterling silver doesn't rust. Neither does stainless steel, a material used at times for baptismal crosses as a less costly alternative. And millions upon millions of people wear their crosses to bed, without any problem. A good-quality box-chain or snake chain with soldered clasp joints will not break as a result of movement in sleep.

Admit it, James. You're clinging to flimsy excuses to "justify" your getting an unnecessary tattoo. You're fooling no-one.
And you, LBK, are devising flimsy excuses to justify intruding into business that is not yours to address. If James wants to get a tattoo, then let him get a tattoo. You aren't his mother, so stop acting like you are.

Flimsy excuse? Apart from the clear historical practice of Copts and OO getting small cross tattoos (to prevent them from being mistaken for Moslems, as well as a courageous proclamation of their faith in oppressive societies), Orthodoxy has unequivocally frowned upon this form of "decoration".
But if James wants to get a tattoo, how is that any of your damn business? He clearly doesn't want your opinion on the matter.

He doesn't want anyone's opinion on any matter, if it contradicts his views. That much should be obvious from his posting history.
And you don't like anyone who challenges your self-proclaimed right to tell others how to live their lives. That much should be obvious from your posting history.

Spare me your indignation.
Just matching your indignation with mine.

James' acquisition of a tattoo is hardly private knowledge. It was he who posted about it, he who stated the reason behind getting it (which would be a matter most people would want to keep to themselves), and he posted a picture of it for all the world to see.
That fact doesn't matter. What does matter is that he also stated very explicitly that he doesn't want your opinion on his choice.

This is a public section of the forum, where all members are allowed to post.
Yes, this is a public section of the forum, where all members are allowed to post. You are allowed to dictate to others how they are to live their lives, and I'm allowed to tell you to mind your own business. It works both ways, LBK.

When someone of his own free will posts on matters of a personal nature, then he has no right to dictate who can and cannot respond to him.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on March 28, 2014, 12:57:44 AM


James' acquisition of a tattoo is hardly private knowledge. It was he who posted about it, he who stated the reason behind getting it (which would be a matter most people would want to keep to themselves), and he posted a picture of it for all the world to see.
That fact doesn't matter. What does matter is that he also stated very explicitly that he doesn't want your opinion on his choice.

All other things aside....I was not aware we could post something here and then dictate the opinions given on that post.  Seems a bit difficult to stop folks from opining.

One can of course not accept that opinion, and not take it to heart, but to say 'i do not want that opinion', that is basically only possible by -not- opening one's self up to it by not posting.



Precisely, Denise. Precisely.

For someone to wish to dictate who can and cannot opine on a matter on a public forum is tantamount to censorship and an obstacle to free speech.
No one's forbidding you to opine on the matter, LBK, so please don't raise this cry of censorship.

Ahem.

he also stated very explicitly that he doesn't want your opinion on his choice.


Your words, PtA.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on March 28, 2014, 01:06:00 AM


James' acquisition of a tattoo is hardly private knowledge. It was he who posted about it, he who stated the reason behind getting it (which would be a matter most people would want to keep to themselves), and he posted a picture of it for all the world to see.
That fact doesn't matter. What does matter is that he also stated very explicitly that he doesn't want your opinion on his choice.

All other things aside....I was not aware we could post something here and then dictate the opinions given on that post.  Seems a bit difficult to stop folks from opining.

One can of course not accept that opinion, and not take it to heart, but to say 'i do not want that opinion', that is basically only possible by -not- opening one's self up to it by not posting.



Precisely, Denise. Precisely.

For someone to wish to dictate who can and cannot opine on a matter on a public forum is tantamount to censorship and an obstacle to free speech.
No one's forbidding you to opine on the matter, LBK, so please don't raise this cry of censorship.

Ahem.

he also stated very explicitly that he doesn't want your opinion on his choice.


Your words, PtA.

Yes, my words exactly. I didn't speak as a moderator--I spoke merely as another poster--so those words don't bear the authority of a moderator. I also did not forbid you from doing anything--I could not, since everything you did was within the rules of the forum. I was just telling you that James didn't want your opinion, so for you to give it to him and berate him for rejecting it, even though you had every license within the rules of this forum to do so, was most uncalled for and an improper intrusion into his personal life. Again, I'm speaking this only as another poster. I don't mean for any of this to have the authority of a moderator, so you have no reason whatsoever to cry "CENSORSHIP!" Your rights are not being impinged upon.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on March 28, 2014, 01:09:10 AM
Quote
Yes, my words exactly. I didn't speak as a moderator--I spoke merely as another poster--so those words don't bear the authority of a moderator. I also did not forbid you from doing anything--I could not, since everything you did was within the rules of the forum. I was just telling you that James didn't want your opinion, so for you to give it to him and berate him for rejecting it, even though you had every license within the rules of this forum to do so, was most uncalled for and an improper intrusion into his personal life. Again, I'm speaking this only as another poster. I don't mean for any of this to have the authority of a moderator, so you have no reason whatsoever to cry "CENSORSHIP!" Your rights are not being impinged upon.

If James doesn't want personal matters aired in public, and doesn't want to hear opinions which might go against what he wants to hear, then he only needs to refrain from posting about them. Simple.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: SolEX01 on March 28, 2014, 01:11:34 AM
Quote
Yes, my words exactly. I didn't speak as a moderator--I spoke merely as another poster--so those words don't bear the authority of a moderator. I also did not forbid you from doing anything--I could not, since everything you did was within the rules of the forum. I was just telling you that James didn't want your opinion, so for you to give it to him and berate him for rejecting it, even though you had every license within the rules of this forum to do so, was most uncalled for and an improper intrusion into his personal life. Again, I'm speaking this only as another poster. I don't mean for any of this to have the authority of a moderator, so you have no reason whatsoever to cry "CENSORSHIP!" Your rights are not being impinged upon.

If James doesn't want personal matters aired in public, and doesn't want to hear opinions which might go against what he wants to hear, then he only needs to refrain from posting about them. Simple.

What does one do with posters who lack tact, yet abide by the rules of this forum?   ???  Best thing is just ignore them.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Maria on March 28, 2014, 01:12:30 AM
What's wrong with being content with wearing a baptismal cross?

Well for one it often gets in the way or becomes a liability at certain times.

I cannot wear it while doing manual labour due to the risk of it getting broken; same goes for sports and amusement parks. You also cannot wear it in the shower or wear it to bed due to the risk of it breaking or getting rust.

With a tattoo you can really never lose it, and it's lower maintenance.

Or you can buy a simpler cross to wear regularly.  They make them out of wood, leather, prayer rope knots, etc.  It's been a long time since I wore a cross made of some sort of metal.  These days I wear a leather cross most often, but I have at least one of the other two types I mentioned.    

Tell me more. I am open to ideas. My gold cross makes me itch, so I wear it OVER my clothes when I attend Holy Services, but I was told that it should be worn UNDER the clothes.

I used to pin it to my shirt, but then once it went through the washing machine by accident. Not a good idea. Well, I guess everything got blessed in that washing cycle.  :angel:
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on March 28, 2014, 01:12:41 AM
Quote
Yes, my words exactly. I didn't speak as a moderator--I spoke merely as another poster--so those words don't bear the authority of a moderator. I also did not forbid you from doing anything--I could not, since everything you did was within the rules of the forum. I was just telling you that James didn't want your opinion, so for you to give it to him and berate him for rejecting it, even though you had every license within the rules of this forum to do so, was most uncalled for and an improper intrusion into his personal life. Again, I'm speaking this only as another poster. I don't mean for any of this to have the authority of a moderator, so you have no reason whatsoever to cry "CENSORSHIP!" Your rights are not being impinged upon.

If James doesn't want personal matters aired in public, and doesn't want to hear opinions which might go against what he wants to hear, then he only needs to refrain from posting about them. Simple.

Yes, very simple indeed. And you can refrain from sharing your meddlesome opinions with him, and I can refrain from telling you to mind your own business.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Maria on March 28, 2014, 01:15:47 AM
Quote
Yes, my words exactly. I didn't speak as a moderator--I spoke merely as another poster--so those words don't bear the authority of a moderator. I also did not forbid you from doing anything--I could not, since everything you did was within the rules of the forum. I was just telling you that James didn't want your opinion, so for you to give it to him and berate him for rejecting it, even though you had every license within the rules of this forum to do so, was most uncalled for and an improper intrusion into his personal life. Again, I'm speaking this only as another poster. I don't mean for any of this to have the authority of a moderator, so you have no reason whatsoever to cry "CENSORSHIP!" Your rights are not being impinged upon.

If James doesn't want personal matters aired in public, and doesn't want to hear opinions which might go against what he wants to hear, then he only needs to refrain from posting about them. Simple.

Yes, very simple indeed. And you can refrain from sharing your meddlesome opinions with him, and I can refrain from telling you to mind your own business.

You two argue like brother and sister.

Glasses of water all around.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: NicholasMyra on March 28, 2014, 01:19:32 AM
This exchange is an embarrassment and should not be on the public fora.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Maria on March 28, 2014, 01:21:21 AM
This exchange is an embarrassment and should not be on the public fora.

Definitely not Lenten reading material.

Now I was just reading my 5 pounder, the Homilies of St. Gregory Palamas on the Sunday of the Holy Cross. This is a huge sermon. It must have taken about an hour to deliver.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Theophania on March 28, 2014, 01:21:32 AM
Operation: Stir Pot was a success.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Mor Ephrem on March 28, 2014, 01:29:05 AM
Tell me more. I am open to ideas.

I have a couple of leather crosses on a cord.  They look like this:

(http://copticegypt.weebly.com/uploads/7/6/3/6/763638/s599367873253480_p293_i1_w702.jpeg)

I also have a wooden crucifix, hand-carved, from the Holy Mountain, and a knotted cross similar to, but smaller than, this:

(http://www.auctionzealot.com/members/orthodoxchristianshop/dsc04852.jpg)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Mor Ephrem on March 28, 2014, 01:30:21 AM
Operation: Stir Pot was a success.

If only the pot came with food...I'm hungry!
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: nicodemus144 on March 28, 2014, 01:31:58 AM
those are very nice, mor. thank you for sharing.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on March 28, 2014, 01:35:51 AM
This exchange is an embarrassment and should not be on the public fora.

Definitely not Lenten reading material.

Now I was just reading my 5 pounder, the Homilies of St. Gregory Palamas on the Sunday of the Holy Cross. This is a huge sermon. It must have taken about an hour to deliver.

But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, so that you do not appear to men to be fasting, but to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. (Matt. 6: 17-18)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Mor Ephrem on March 28, 2014, 01:37:54 AM
those are very nice, mor. thank you for sharing.

Anytime!  I forgot to mention that these sorts of crosses are usually inexpensive and, in my experience, quite durable. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on March 28, 2014, 01:38:58 AM
Operation: Stir Pot was a success.

If only the pot came with food...I'm hungry!


Pot Noodle     :laugh:


(google if you are not from the UK)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Maria on March 28, 2014, 01:40:46 AM
those are very nice, mor. thank you for sharing.

Anytime!  I forgot to mention that these sorts of crosses are usually inexpensive and, in my experience, quite durable. 

Thank you very much.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on March 28, 2014, 01:43:18 AM
Operation: Stir Pot was a success.

If only the pot came with food...I'm hungry!

There's a large pot of onion and mushroom soup on my stove which finished brewing not long ago. A shame I can't share some with you.  :(
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on March 28, 2014, 01:48:40 AM
This exchange is an embarrassment and should not be on the public fora.
Actually, I can think of no better place for this than on the public forum. This is the Free-For-All (Religious Topics) section, after all. If you're embarrassed, don't read it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on March 28, 2014, 01:55:39 AM
This exchange is an embarrassment and should not be on the public fora.
Actually, I can think of no better place for this than on the public forum. This is the Free-For-All (Religious Topics) section, after all.

So why your complaints?  ::)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on March 28, 2014, 01:56:30 AM
This exchange is an embarrassment and should not be on the public fora.
Actually, I can think of no better place for this than on the public forum. This is the Free-For-All (Religious Topics) section, after all.

So why your complaints?  ::)
Why yours? Are you the only one free to complain on this board?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on March 28, 2014, 01:58:20 AM
This exchange is an embarrassment and should not be on the public fora.
Actually, I can think of no better place for this than on the public forum. This is the Free-For-All (Religious Topics) section, after all.

So why your complaints?  ::)
Why yours? Are you the only one free to complain on this board?

I never said I was. However, you seem to delight in playing cat among the pigeons quite frequently, often batting for both sides at the same time.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Gebre Menfes Kidus on March 28, 2014, 01:59:53 AM
Let's talk about something less controversial than tattoos, like evolution, abortion, or nature/natures of Christ.


Selam
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on March 28, 2014, 02:00:39 AM
I've been wondering how to proceed with the cross on my left arm, which I'd like to have other similarly religious art with. I'm not really that big on praying hands and depictions of (saintly) people and all that, so I'm most likely just going to incorporate some other crosses, like...

(http://i.imgur.com/1UXPQlQ.jpg)

...with some kind of background. I'm sort of locked in to some extent at this point by the size, shape, placement, etc. of the cross I already have.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on March 28, 2014, 02:04:58 AM
I've been wondering how to proceed with the cross on my left arm, which I'd like to have other similarly religious art with. I'm not really that big on praying hands and depictions of (saintly) people and all that, so I'm most likely just going to incorporate some other crosses, like...

(http://i.imgur.com/1UXPQlQ.jpg)

...with some kind of background. I'm sort of locked in to some extent at this point by the size, shape, placement, etc. of the cross I already have.

Not that you will mind but that reminds me of metal band logos.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Theophania on March 28, 2014, 02:05:45 AM
Let's talk about something less controversial than tattoos, like evolution, abortion, or nature/natures of Christ.


Selam

Don't forget headcoverings!
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on March 28, 2014, 02:07:28 AM
This exchange is an embarrassment and should not be on the public fora.
Actually, I can think of no better place for this than on the public forum. This is the Free-For-All (Religious Topics) section, after all.

So why your complaints?  ::)
Why yours? Are you the only one free to complain on this board?

I never said I was. However, you seem to delight in playing cat among the pigeons quite frequently, often batting for both sides at the same time.
Yes, I do. I'm an equal opportunity rebuker. But at least I'm fair. What you just did to James was inappropriate, not from the pov of forum rules, but from the pov of common decency. Am I not right to rebuke you for it?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on March 28, 2014, 02:13:05 AM
This exchange is an embarrassment and should not be on the public fora.
Actually, I can think of no better place for this than on the public forum. This is the Free-For-All (Religious Topics) section, after all.

So why your complaints?  ::)
Why yours? Are you the only one free to complain on this board?

I never said I was. However, you seem to delight in playing cat among the pigeons quite frequently, often batting for both sides at the same time.
Yes, I do. I'm an equal opportunity rebuker. But at least I'm fair. What you just did to James was inappropriate, not from the pov of forum rules, but from the pov of common decency. Am I not right to rebuke you for it?

If you rebuke me, then you should be consistent and rebuke everyone else who posted in similar vein to me. This you have not done.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on March 28, 2014, 02:14:06 AM
Let's talk about something less controversial than tattoos, like evolution, abortion, or nature/natures of Christ.


Selam

Don't forget headcoverings!

I needed a last thing before trying to sleep, laugh.

Thank you for making it so!
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on March 28, 2014, 02:19:53 AM
I've been wondering how to proceed with the cross on my left arm, which I'd like to have other similarly religious art with. I'm not really that big on praying hands and depictions of (saintly) people and all that, so I'm most likely just going to incorporate some other crosses, like...

...with some kind of background. I'm sort of locked in to some extent at this point by the size, shape, placement, etc. of the cross I already have.

Not that you will mind but that reminds me of metal band logos.

Ha, I hadn't thought of that.  :angel:  Though since I do like the genre so much, and since many tats veer in a similar direction anyway, perhaps I shouldn't be surprised that I started heading towards something with a metal vibe to it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on March 28, 2014, 02:21:25 AM
This exchange is an embarrassment and should not be on the public fora.
Actually, I can think of no better place for this than on the public forum. This is the Free-For-All (Religious Topics) section, after all.

So why your complaints?  ::)
Why yours? Are you the only one free to complain on this board?

I never said I was. However, you seem to delight in playing cat among the pigeons quite frequently, often batting for both sides at the same time.
Yes, I do. I'm an equal opportunity rebuker. But at least I'm fair. What you just did to James was inappropriate, not from the pov of forum rules, but from the pov of common decency. Am I not right to rebuke you for it?

If you rebuke me, then you should be consistent and rebuke everyone else who posted in similar vein to me. This you have not done.
No, LBK, you are the only person who posted in a similar vein to you. You are the only one who tried to order James to not get a tattoo and called rubbish his excuses for disregarding your "advice". Others offered their opinions on his idea of getting a tattoo and/or on his complaints about wearing his baptismal cross at all times, but you are the only one who actually scolded him for disagreeing with you.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on March 28, 2014, 02:30:44 AM
This exchange is an embarrassment and should not be on the public fora.
Actually, I can think of no better place for this than on the public forum. This is the Free-For-All (Religious Topics) section, after all.

So why your complaints?  ::)
Why yours? Are you the only one free to complain on this board?

I never said I was. However, you seem to delight in playing cat among the pigeons quite frequently, often batting for both sides at the same time.
Yes, I do. I'm an equal opportunity rebuker. But at least I'm fair. What you just did to James was inappropriate, not from the pov of forum rules, but from the pov of common decency. Am I not right to rebuke you for it?

If you rebuke me, then you should be consistent and rebuke everyone else who posted in similar vein to me. This you have not done.
No, LBK, you are the only person who posted in a similar vein to you. You are the only one who tried to order James to not get a tattoo and called rubbish his excuses for disregarding your "advice". Others offered their opinions on his idea of getting a tattoo and/or on his complaints about wearing his baptismal cross at all times, but you are the only one who actually scolded him for disagreeing with you.

Putting words in my mouth again. Show me where in this thread I "order James to not get a tattoo".

Furthermore, the excuses he gave in not wanting to wear his cross at certain times simply do not stack up. If he didn't like hearing what I had to say, which was sound, practical advice, then that's his problem, not mine.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on March 28, 2014, 03:17:51 AM
This exchange is an embarrassment and should not be on the public fora.
Actually, I can think of no better place for this than on the public forum. This is the Free-For-All (Religious Topics) section, after all.

So why your complaints?  ::)
Why yours? Are you the only one free to complain on this board?

I never said I was. However, you seem to delight in playing cat among the pigeons quite frequently, often batting for both sides at the same time.
Yes, I do. I'm an equal opportunity rebuker. But at least I'm fair. What you just did to James was inappropriate, not from the pov of forum rules, but from the pov of common decency. Am I not right to rebuke you for it?

If you rebuke me, then you should be consistent and rebuke everyone else who posted in similar vein to me. This you have not done.
No, LBK, you are the only person who posted in a similar vein to you. You are the only one who tried to order James to not get a tattoo and called rubbish his excuses for disregarding your "advice". Others offered their opinions on his idea of getting a tattoo and/or on his complaints about wearing his baptismal cross at all times, but you are the only one who actually scolded him for disagreeing with you.

Putting words in my mouth again. Show me where in this thread I "order James to not get a tattoo".

Furthermore, the excuses he gave in not wanting to wear his cross at certain times simply do not stack up. If he didn't like hearing what I had to say, which was sound, practical advice, then that's his problem, not mine.
It's none of your business to judge James's reasons for not wearing his baptismal cross at all times or for wearing a tattoo, for you are not his mother. He is not your son, so he bears no responsibility to obey you.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Mor Ephrem on March 28, 2014, 03:19:50 AM
There's a large pot of onion and mushroom soup on my stove which finished brewing not long ago. A shame I can't share some with you.  :(

I would happily have some.  I'm hungry AND for whatever reason I cannot fall asleep.  I must be on whatever time zone you're on.  :P 
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Mor Ephrem on March 28, 2014, 03:20:33 AM
Let's talk about something less controversial than tattoos, like evolution, abortion, or nature/natures of Christ.


Selam

Don't forget headcoverings!

Breastfeeding and Catholics. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on March 28, 2014, 03:35:28 AM
There's a large pot of onion and mushroom soup on my stove which finished brewing not long ago. A shame I can't share some with you.  :(

I would happily have some.  I'm hungry AND for whatever reason I cannot fall asleep.  I must be on whatever time zone you're on.  :P 

A shame teleporting isn't a reality yet. And even if it was, I really don't trust what it could do to something like a container of soup.  The results could be, erm, interesting.  :P :o :laugh:
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on March 28, 2014, 03:40:59 AM
This exchange is an embarrassment and should not be on the public fora.
Actually, I can think of no better place for this than on the public forum. This is the Free-For-All (Religious Topics) section, after all.

So why your complaints?  ::)
Why yours? Are you the only one free to complain on this board?

I never said I was. However, you seem to delight in playing cat among the pigeons quite frequently, often batting for both sides at the same time.
Yes, I do. I'm an equal opportunity rebuker. But at least I'm fair. What you just did to James was inappropriate, not from the pov of forum rules, but from the pov of common decency. Am I not right to rebuke you for it?

If you rebuke me, then you should be consistent and rebuke everyone else who posted in similar vein to me. This you have not done.
No, LBK, you are the only person who posted in a similar vein to you. You are the only one who tried to order James to not get a tattoo and called rubbish his excuses for disregarding your "advice". Others offered their opinions on his idea of getting a tattoo and/or on his complaints about wearing his baptismal cross at all times, but you are the only one who actually scolded him for disagreeing with you.

Putting words in my mouth again. Show me where in this thread I "order James to not get a tattoo".

Furthermore, the excuses he gave in not wanting to wear his cross at certain times simply do not stack up. If he didn't like hearing what I had to say, which was sound, practical advice, then that's his problem, not mine.
It's none of your business to judge James's reasons for not wearing his baptismal cross at all times or for wearing a tattoo, for you are not his mother.

As I said before: James only needs to keep such personal matters to himself if he wants to avoid hearing advice or comments which he finds unpalatable. Otherwise, I and anyone else can respond to his posts.

Quote
He is not your son, so he bears no responsibility to obey you.

You really should stop putting words in people's mouths, it only serves to paint you in an increasingly bad light. Show me where I have demanded he obey me.  >:(
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on March 28, 2014, 05:25:39 AM
This exchange is an embarrassment and should not be on the public fora.
Actually, I can think of no better place for this than on the public forum. This is the Free-For-All (Religious Topics) section, after all.

So why your complaints?  ::)
Why yours? Are you the only one free to complain on this board?

I never said I was. However, you seem to delight in playing cat among the pigeons quite frequently, often batting for both sides at the same time.
Yes, I do. I'm an equal opportunity rebuker. But at least I'm fair. What you just did to James was inappropriate, not from the pov of forum rules, but from the pov of common decency. Am I not right to rebuke you for it?

If you rebuke me, then you should be consistent and rebuke everyone else who posted in similar vein to me. This you have not done.
No, LBK, you are the only person who posted in a similar vein to you. You are the only one who tried to order James to not get a tattoo and called rubbish his excuses for disregarding your "advice". Others offered their opinions on his idea of getting a tattoo and/or on his complaints about wearing his baptismal cross at all times, but you are the only one who actually scolded him for disagreeing with you.

Putting words in my mouth again. Show me where in this thread I "order James to not get a tattoo".

Furthermore, the excuses he gave in not wanting to wear his cross at certain times simply do not stack up. If he didn't like hearing what I had to say, which was sound, practical advice, then that's his problem, not mine.
It's none of your business to judge James's reasons for not wearing his baptismal cross at all times or for wearing a tattoo, for you are not his mother.

As I said before: James only needs to keep such personal matters to himself if he wants to avoid hearing advice or comments which he finds unpalatable. Otherwise, I and anyone else can respond to his posts.
Just because you can doesn't mean you should. There are times when you should keep your comments to yourself, and this is one of those times.

Quote
He is not your son, so he bears no responsibility to obey you.

You really should stop putting words in people's mouths, it only serves to paint you in an increasingly bad light. Show me where I have demanded he obey me.  >:(
Considering that I never accused you of demanding that James obey you, I'm not putting words in your mouth. So who's putting words into whose mouth now?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on March 28, 2014, 05:47:21 AM
This exchange is an embarrassment and should not be on the public fora.
Actually, I can think of no better place for this than on the public forum. This is the Free-For-All (Religious Topics) section, after all.

So why your complaints?  ::)
Why yours? Are you the only one free to complain on this board?

I never said I was. However, you seem to delight in playing cat among the pigeons quite frequently, often batting for both sides at the same time.
Yes, I do. I'm an equal opportunity rebuker. But at least I'm fair. What you just did to James was inappropriate, not from the pov of forum rules, but from the pov of common decency. Am I not right to rebuke you for it?

If you rebuke me, then you should be consistent and rebuke everyone else who posted in similar vein to me. This you have not done.
No, LBK, you are the only person who posted in a similar vein to you. You are the only one who tried to order James to not get a tattoo and called rubbish his excuses for disregarding your "advice". Others offered their opinions on his idea of getting a tattoo and/or on his complaints about wearing his baptismal cross at all times, but you are the only one who actually scolded him for disagreeing with you.

Putting words in my mouth again. Show me where in this thread I "order James to not get a tattoo".

Furthermore, the excuses he gave in not wanting to wear his cross at certain times simply do not stack up. If he didn't like hearing what I had to say, which was sound, practical advice, then that's his problem, not mine.
It's none of your business to judge James's reasons for not wearing his baptismal cross at all times or for wearing a tattoo, for you are not his mother.

As I said before: James only needs to keep such personal matters to himself if he wants to avoid hearing advice or comments which he finds unpalatable. Otherwise, I and anyone else can respond to his posts.
Just because you can doesn't mean you should. There are times when you should keep your comments to yourself, and this is one of those times.

Quote
He is not your son, so he bears no responsibility to obey you.

You really should stop putting words in people's mouths, it only serves to paint you in an increasingly bad light. Show me where I have demanded he obey me.  >:(
Considering that I never accused you of demanding that James obey you, I'm not putting words in your mouth. So who's putting words into whose mouth now?

Nope, ain't letting you off that easy. Show me where I have demanded that James obey me.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: JamesR on March 28, 2014, 05:57:59 PM
What's wrong with being content with wearing a baptismal cross?

Well for one it often gets in the way or becomes a liability at certain times.

I cannot wear it while doing manual labour due to the risk of it getting broken; same goes for sports and amusement parks. You also cannot wear it in the shower or wear it to bed due to the risk of it breaking or getting rust.

With a tattoo you can really never lose it, and it's lower maintenance.

Didn't you just get an Orthodox Cross tatooed on your wrist with pictures to prove it?
Or was that someone else?

Yup that was me :) It looks even nicer now that it set in. I consider it the second part to my Baptismal Cross, and it helps me to refrain my hand from engaging in sin.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: JamesR on March 28, 2014, 05:57:59 PM
Apart from the clear historical practice of Copts and OO getting small cross tattoos (to prevent them from being mistaken for Moslems, as well as a courageous proclamation of their faith in oppressive societies), Orthodoxy has unequivocally frowned upon this form of "decoration".

That's the thing

prove it

Again, my challenge to you has still remained uncontested Prove to me--find me at least ONE objective Orthodox source via either the Bible, patristics, or Canons that prohibit tattoos.

You are free to say whatever you want about my tattoo like my mother (although I don't have to listen to it). I really don't care. But I am not going to take your opinion seriously UNTIL you meet my challenge. I even spoke to my own Priest about my tattoo and the only thing he told me was to be careful of falling into vanity. That being said, given the preliminary conditions of my tattoo, my reasons, and the fact that it was paid for, I do not believe it was vain and I have a clean conscience.

Until then, I don't wish to further discuss my tattoo. You brought it up and you can continue to bring it up but I have no intention to respond unless you prove to me that tattoos are prohibited in Orthodoxy via my above challenge which I've brought to you several times.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: JamesR on March 28, 2014, 05:57:59 PM
What's wrong with being content with wearing a baptismal cross?

Well for one it often gets in the way or becomes a liability at certain times.

I cannot wear it while doing manual labour due to the risk of it getting broken; same goes for sports and amusement parks. You also cannot wear it in the shower or wear it to bed due to the risk of it breaking or getting rust.

With a tattoo you can really never lose it, and it's lower maintenance.

Or you can buy a simpler cross to wear regularly.  They make them out of wood, leather, prayer rope knots, etc.  It's been a long time since I wore a cross made of some sort of metal.  These days I wear a leather cross most often, but I have at least one of the other two types I mentioned.    

I thought of that. I used to wear a chotki but it made me feel vain because it wasn't easily concealable--although they are more durable. At least with my tattoo all I have to do us unroll my sleeve if I wish to conceal it. 90% of the time it's covered. Only time it's ever visible is when I'm roaming around my home in a tank top shirt.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: William on March 30, 2014, 02:15:02 AM
those are very nice, mor. thank you for sharing.

Anytime!  I forgot to mention that these sorts of crosses are usually inexpensive and, in my experience, quite durable. 

Is the leather one okay in water?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: William on March 30, 2014, 02:19:59 AM
Anyone want to streamline this design for me:

(http://oi58.tinypic.com/25r1izc.jpg)

I'd like to redo the skull completely. I was thinking that it should just be the top half, without the lower jaw. No nose, and smaller eyes. Basically like the skull at the bottom of the cross in the Old Orthodox Prayer Book. I asked Achronos/Shiny for help but he is morally opposed to tattoos so he wouldn't do it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Mor Ephrem on March 30, 2014, 12:39:26 PM
Is the leather one okay in water?

I have no idea...I don't swim, and I take the cross off before I shower. 

I asked Achronos/Shiny for help but he is morally opposed to tattoos so he wouldn't do it.

He was morally opposed to something?  :P
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Mor Ephrem on March 30, 2014, 12:40:19 PM
Only time it's ever visible is when I'm roaming around my home in a tank top shirt.

Don't ever do that.  Have some reverence for the angels.   
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: ZealousZeal on March 30, 2014, 01:20:21 PM
Let's talk about something less controversial than tattoos, like evolution, abortion, or nature/natures of Christ.


Selam

Don't forget headcoverings!

Breastfeeding and Catholics. 

Ecumenism and the calendar.

Only time it's ever visible is when I'm roaming around my home in a tank top shirt.

Don't ever do that.  Have some reverence for the angels.   

LOL!!!
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: orthonorm on April 02, 2014, 05:40:02 PM
Anyone want to streamline this design for me:

(http://oi58.tinypic.com/25r1izc.jpg)

I'd like to redo the skull completely. I was thinking that it should just be the top half, without the lower jaw. No nose, and smaller eyes. Basically like the skull at the bottom of the cross in the Old Orthodox Prayer Book. I asked Achronos/Shiny for help but he is morally opposed to tattoos so he wouldn't do it.

Dude, this is goofy. You can do better. That skull belongs at Long John Silver's.

Other than this post, you have come back in much better form to the board.

And *? What are you thinking? Aren't you a bit old for all this?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on April 02, 2014, 07:32:12 PM
And *? What are you thinking? Aren't you a bit old for all this?

I didn't even get my first tat till I was like 30 :angel:
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Mor Ephrem on April 02, 2014, 09:19:37 PM
That skull belongs at Long John Silver's.

:)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: hecma925 on April 03, 2014, 09:58:50 AM
I personally have no issue with tattoos.  Most of the tattooed people I know got them for vanity's sake; I can't really appreciate that.  For those that have an attached meaning to their tattoo and if the artist's work is really good,  I can appreciate it.  I have never been tattooed, but who knows? 
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on April 03, 2014, 10:00:56 AM
And *? What are you thinking? Aren't you a bit old for all this?

And I haven't even talked about the other one, which involves a zombie bishop, a burning Hagia Sophia, and the ground covered with bodies.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: hecma925 on April 03, 2014, 10:02:45 AM
And *? What are you thinking? Aren't you a bit old for all this?

And I haven't even talked about the other one, which involves a zombie bishop, a burning Hagia Sophia, and the ground covered with bodies.

I know the artist for you, as long as you want a Chola Virgen de Guadalupe floating above.  It would make as much sense.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on April 03, 2014, 10:05:27 AM
And *? What are you thinking? Aren't you a bit old for all this?

And I haven't even talked about the other one, which involves a zombie bishop, a burning Hagia Sophia, and the ground covered with bodies.

I know the artist for you, as long as you want a Chola Virgen de Guadalupe floating above.  It would make as much sense.

I thought She just came standard with the Zombie bishop.


Maybe thats just in deepest darkest LA though.... :laugh:
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: hecma925 on April 03, 2014, 10:33:05 AM
And *? What are you thinking? Aren't you a bit old for all this?

And I haven't even talked about the other one, which involves a zombie bishop, a burning Hagia Sophia, and the ground covered with bodies.

I know the artist for you, as long as you want a Chola Virgen de Guadalupe floating above.  It would make as much sense.

I thought She just came standard with the Zombie bishop.


Maybe thats just in deepest darkest LA though.... :laugh:

It may depend if it's a zombie bishop with Western or Byzantine vestments. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on April 03, 2014, 10:35:52 AM
Pat. Of Constantinople, with staff as well. Though the zombie part will be mostly implied as he will have a COC skull  ;D  :angel:
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on April 03, 2014, 11:08:50 AM
This is just my opinion.

But I believe Christians with tattoos should have them removed.

This is because God told us not to get them.
Also in consideration that your body is the holy temple.

Leviticus 19:28 - You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the Lord.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 - What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1 Corinthians 3:16 - Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

God also knew you before he formed you in the womb.  He formed you knowing that you'd be the temple.  He didn't create you with tattoos.

I'm not lecturing anybody here, it is just my opinion.  You are made in God's image.
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

You are formed in his image, you are his temple, and God specifically told us not to get tattoos.   
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: hecma925 on April 03, 2014, 11:11:56 AM
This is just my opinion.

But I believe Christians with tattoos should have them removed.

This is because God told us not to get them.
Also in consideration that your body is the holy temple.

Leviticus 19:28 - You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the Lord.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 - What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1 Corinthians 3:16 - Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

God also knew you before he formed you in the womb.  He formed you knowing that you'd be the temple.  He didn't create you with tattoos.

I'm not lecturing anybody here, it is just my opinion.  You are made in God's image.
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

You are formed in his image, you are his temple, and God specifically told us not to get tattoos.   

"For the dead" is a pretty big caveat.  Lots of people get tattoos in memory of dead family and friends and lots of people don't.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on April 03, 2014, 11:20:33 AM
There is also the distinct possibility (and I am not a Bible scholar) that the prohibition was to -contrast- with the pagans of the time who did mark themselves as part of funeral rights...


Considering that Lev. is the only place that -specifically- mentions it....trying to combine it with Corinthians is somewhat problematic.....since there are plenty of other things that people do that violate that 'temple' ness...that people do not chase after them scolding them on....


If we are going to follow Leviticus as -law-, then we have an awful lot of other things to stop doing as well.  None of which we currently obey as -law-...

Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: podkarpatska on April 03, 2014, 12:59:43 PM
This thread is a great example of the discordant cacophony that frequently breaks out online when certain questions of a personal nature are best discussed between a lay believer and his or her parish priest or, for some, their spiritual father.

I have an opinion, and I will not share it here as I am neither your priest nor your spiritual father.

Ask your priest or spiritual father. Consider carefully his advice. Feel free to ask him why if you disagree. Ask if there are pastoral consequences should you freely choose not follow his guidance.  If you must, seek out another priest or monk to further discuss the matter. Go back to the first one if needed.  After that, pray on it and using your God given free will - decide. Then deal with your decision. The church is not a democracy and our opinions are irrelevant, they won't validate a poor choice nor will they (unfortunately perhaps) trump bad pastoral or familial advice.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on April 03, 2014, 01:31:17 PM
Why would I ask my priest what your opinion on tattoos are?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on April 03, 2014, 02:17:23 PM
^To add--it's just a discussion, that's all  :) No one is asking permission to get a tattoo, or trying to replace advice from others (e.g. a priest). It's just getting an idea of what people think.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Cackles on April 03, 2014, 04:31:53 PM
I personally have no issue with tattoos.  Most of the tattooed people I know got them for vanity's sake; I can't really appreciate that.  For those that have an attached meaning to their tattoo and if the artist's work is really good,  I can appreciate it.  I have never been tattooed, but who knows? 

God has an issue with tattoo's as your directly commanded not to tattoo your body.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: William on April 13, 2014, 02:34:01 PM
This thread is a great example of the discordant cacophony that frequently breaks out online when certain questions of a personal nature are best discussed between a lay believer and his or her parish priest or, for some, their spiritual father.

I have an opinion, and I will not share it here as I am neither your priest nor your spiritual father.

Ask your priest or spiritual father. Consider carefully his advice. Feel free to ask him why if you disagree. Ask if there are pastoral consequences should you freely choose not follow his guidance.  If you must, seek out another priest or monk to further discuss the matter. Go back to the first one if needed.  After that, pray on it and using your God given free will - decide. Then deal with your decision. The church is not a democracy and our opinions are irrelevant, they won't validate a poor choice nor will they (unfortunately perhaps) trump bad pastoral or familial advice.

I'm not going to ask my priest, because even if it is frowned upon by many clergy, it's clearly nothing that would require an excommunication or spiritual discipline. It's never mentioned in canons or the New Testament, and whenever you see them in church tradition and history they're never condemned. Most of the arguments against them do not convince me, and I have freedom in Christ if my conscience does not convict me. If I had doubt I would ask my priest and heed his advice, but I don't really have doubt.

This is closer to the skull I want: (http://www.coolgiftusa.com/product_images/r/597/128-058__04916_std.gif)

*, you know how to photoshop, can you shrink it and add it to my design above?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: William on April 13, 2014, 02:46:50 PM
I remember reading about either a confessor or martyr in a gulag who got his chest tattooed with the cross.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: William on April 13, 2014, 02:50:44 PM
Photo of Tsar St. Nicholas' forearm dragon tattoo:

(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0jb7cDu6w1r8eehr.jpg)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Peacemaker on April 13, 2014, 03:43:52 PM
Wish I didn't have mine, my whole forearm is covered. My spiritual father has told me it's a sin but I did it before I was Orthodox. We are to be a light for non-Christians and I keep my tattoo covered at all times (even in the summer I wear long sleeve shirts) because I don't want others to fall into the sin of judgement because of something stupid I did in my youth. It's going to be a burden to me to never let anyone see it when I become a monk (God willing). I even asked my spiritual father if I should get it removed with a lazer but he told me "You are going to be worm food, do you want to spend  thousands of dollars on their dinner?"

I want to follow all the commandments of God, and it's clear about not getting tattoos.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on April 13, 2014, 04:06:52 PM
Wish I didn't have mine, my whole forearm is covered. My spiritual father has told me it's a sin but I did it before I was Orthodox. We are to be a light for non-Christians and I keep my tattoo covered at all times (even in the summer I wear long sleeve shirts) because I don't want others to fall into the sin of judgement because of something stupid I did in my youth. It's going to be a burden to me to never let anyone see it when I become a monk (God willing). I even asked my spiritual father if I should get it removed with a lazer but he told me "You are going to be worm food, do you want to spend  thousands of dollars on their dinner?"

I want to follow all the commandments of God, and it's clear about not getting tattoos.
The commandments of God are also very clear about not eating pork or oysters. Why do we not follow those anymore?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Peacemaker on April 13, 2014, 06:10:58 PM
Wish I didn't have mine, my whole forearm is covered. My spiritual father has told me it's a sin but I did it before I was Orthodox. We are to be a light for non-Christians and I keep my tattoo covered at all times (even in the summer I wear long sleeve shirts) because I don't want others to fall into the sin of judgement because of something stupid I did in my youth. It's going to be a burden to me to never let anyone see it when I become a monk (God willing). I even asked my spiritual father if I should get it removed with a lazer but he told me "You are going to be worm food, do you want to spend  thousands of dollars on their dinner?"

I want to follow all the commandments of God, and it's clear about not getting tattoos.
The commandments of God are also very clear about not eating pork or oysters. Why do we not follow those anymore?

Tell me where in the NEW testament does it say that? I think you need to talk to your priest about OT and NT laws and how they work and what we believe and follow.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Deep Roots on April 13, 2014, 06:23:57 PM
Wish I didn't have mine, my whole forearm is covered. My spiritual father has told me it's a sin but I did it before I was Orthodox. We are to be a light for non-Christians and I keep my tattoo covered at all times (even in the summer I wear long sleeve shirts) because I don't want others to fall into the sin of judgement because of something stupid I did in my youth. It's going to be a burden to me to never let anyone see it when I become a monk (God willing). I even asked my spiritual father if I should get it removed with a lazer but he told me "You are going to be worm food, do you want to spend  thousands of dollars on their dinner?"

I want to follow all the commandments of God, and it's clear about not getting tattoos.
The commandments of God are also very clear about not eating pork or oysters. Why do we not follow those anymore?

Tell me where in the NEW testament does it say that? I think you need to talk to your priest about OT and NT laws and how they work and what we believe and follow.
PM me if you wanna see a pic of my sweet tattoo.  It's cross with roots growing out of the bottom of it.  I think you'll like it -- I can tell from your posts.

yea or nay?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Peacemaker on April 13, 2014, 10:41:51 PM
Wish I didn't have mine, my whole forearm is covered. My spiritual father has told me it's a sin but I did it before I was Orthodox. We are to be a light for non-Christians and I keep my tattoo covered at all times (even in the summer I wear long sleeve shirts) because I don't want others to fall into the sin of judgement because of something stupid I did in my youth. It's going to be a burden to me to never let anyone see it when I become a monk (God willing). I even asked my spiritual father if I should get it removed with a lazer but he told me "You are going to be worm food, do you want to spend  thousands of dollars on their dinner?"

I want to follow all the commandments of God, and it's clear about not getting tattoos.
The commandments of God are also very clear about not eating pork or oysters. Why do we not follow those anymore?

Tell me where in the NEW testament does it say that? I think you need to talk to your priest about OT and NT laws and how they work and what we believe and follow.
PM me if you wanna see a pic of my sweet tattoo.  It's cross with roots growing out of the bottom of it.  I think you'll like it -- I can tell from your posts.

yea or nay?

The sarcasm wasn't necessary, forgive me if I upset you in any way.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Gebre Menfes Kidus on April 14, 2014, 02:39:51 AM
Wish I didn't have mine, my whole forearm is covered. My spiritual father has told me it's a sin but I did it before I was Orthodox. We are to be a light for non-Christians and I keep my tattoo covered at all times (even in the summer I wear long sleeve shirts) because I don't want others to fall into the sin of judgement because of something stupid I did in my youth. It's going to be a burden to me to never let anyone see it when I become a monk (God willing). I even asked my spiritual father if I should get it removed with a lazer but he told me "You are going to be worm food, do you want to spend  thousands of dollars on their dinner?"

I want to follow all the commandments of God, and it's clear about not getting tattoos.
The commandments of God are also very clear about not eating pork or oysters. Why do we not follow those anymore?

Tell me where in the NEW testament does it say that? I think you need to talk to your priest about OT and NT laws and how they work and what we believe and follow.


I'm not aware of any NT passage or verse that prohibits tattoos, but perhaps I've missed something. I actually follow the Levitical dietary laws, but not because I believe it essential to my salvation but because it's essential to my health. I think too many people take undue license from St. Peter's vision, which was a symbolic message indicating that the Gentiles were also worthy to receive the gospel. The secondary meaning of the dream was that our salvation is no longer predicated upon what we eat. But while pork may now be considered religiously "clean," that doesn't change the properties of the physical pork one eats. If all things are literally clean, then that would mean that diseased rats are also clean; but I don't see Christians wolfing down diseased rat meat while proclaiming, "God says all things are clean!"

As for tattoos, I think a similar principle applies. Getting a tattoo won't affect your salvation, but it could very possibly affect your day to day life. There are still consequences to our actions. Our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, and we should consider what we put into them and how we adorn them outwardly. I have many tattoos, most of them symbolic of my Christian Faith. But I would never recommend that someone get a tattoo without serious consideration. But if somebody were to ask me what I thought was more detrimental, getting a Cross tattooed on their arm or eating pork, I would advise them to get the tattoo and avoid the pork. But that's just my two cents on it.  :)


Selam
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Peacemaker on April 14, 2014, 08:25:20 AM
Wish I didn't have mine, my whole forearm is covered. My spiritual father has told me it's a sin but I did it before I was Orthodox. We are to be a light for non-Christians and I keep my tattoo covered at all times (even in the summer I wear long sleeve shirts) because I don't want others to fall into the sin of judgement because of something stupid I did in my youth. It's going to be a burden to me to never let anyone see it when I become a monk (God willing). I even asked my spiritual father if I should get it removed with a lazer but he told me "You are going to be worm food, do you want to spend  thousands of dollars on their dinner?"

I want to follow all the commandments of God, and it's clear about not getting tattoos.
The commandments of God are also very clear about not eating pork or oysters. Why do we not follow those anymore?

Tell me where in the NEW testament does it say that? I think you need to talk to your priest about OT and NT laws and how they work and what we believe and follow.


I'm not aware of any NT passage or verse that prohibits tattoos, but perhaps I've missed something. I actually follow the Levitical dietary laws, but not because I believe it essential to my salvation but because it's essential to my health. I think too many people take undue license from St. Peter's vision, which was a symbolic message indicating that the Gentiles were also worthy to receive the gospel. The secondary meaning of the dream was that our salvation is no longer predicated upon what we eat. But while pork may now be considered religiously "clean," that doesn't change the properties of the physical pork one eats. If all things are literally clean, then that would mean that diseased rats are also clean; but I don't see Christians wolfing down diseased rat meat while proclaiming, "God says all things are clean!"

As for tattoos, I think a similar principle applies. Getting a tattoo won't affect your salvation, but it could very possibly affect your day to day life. There are still consequences to our actions. Our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, and we should consider what we put into them and how we adorn them outwardly. I have many tattoos, most of them symbolic of my Christian Faith. But I would never recommend that someone get a tattoo without serious consideration. But if somebody were to ask me what I thought was more detrimental, getting a Cross tattooed on their arm or eating pork, I would advise them to get the tattoo and avoid the pork. But that's just my two cents on it.  :)


Selam

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 - What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?


All-in-all, I've developed a different way of thinking about tattoos and piercings after I've become Orthodox, and that's okay. I am doing what my priest is asking of me. Ask your priest what you should do, that way if it is a sin your priest will take the responsibility and it will be taken off your shoulders. If your priest says don't get one, don't get one.


Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Deep Roots on April 14, 2014, 08:26:49 AM
Wish I didn't have mine, my whole forearm is covered. My spiritual father has told me it's a sin but I did it before I was Orthodox. We are to be a light for non-Christians and I keep my tattoo covered at all times (even in the summer I wear long sleeve shirts) because I don't want others to fall into the sin of judgement because of something stupid I did in my youth. It's going to be a burden to me to never let anyone see it when I become a monk (God willing). I even asked my spiritual father if I should get it removed with a lazer but he told me "You are going to be worm food, do you want to spend  thousands of dollars on their dinner?"

I want to follow all the commandments of God, and it's clear about not getting tattoos.
The commandments of God are also very clear about not eating pork or oysters. Why do we not follow those anymore?

Tell me where in the NEW testament does it say that? I think you need to talk to your priest about OT and NT laws and how they work and what we believe and follow.


I'm not aware of any NT passage or verse that prohibits tattoos, but perhaps I've missed something. I actually follow the Levitical dietary laws, but not because I believe it essential to my salvation but because it's essential to my health. I think too many people take undue license from St. Peter's vision, which was a symbolic message indicating that the Gentiles were also worthy to receive the gospel. The secondary meaning of the dream was that our salvation is no longer predicated upon what we eat. But while pork may now be considered religiously "clean," that doesn't change the properties of the physical pork one eats. If all things are literally clean, then that would mean that diseased rats are also clean; but I don't see Christians wolfing down diseased rat meat while proclaiming, "God says all things are clean!"

As for tattoos, I think a similar principle applies. Getting a tattoo won't affect your salvation, but it could very possibly affect your day to day life. There are still consequences to our actions. Our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, and we should consider what we put into them and how we adorn them outwardly. I have many tattoos, most of them symbolic of my Christian Faith. But I would never recommend that someone get a tattoo without serious consideration. But if somebody were to ask me what I thought was more detrimental, getting a Cross tattooed on their arm or eating pork, I would advise them to get the tattoo and avoid the pork. But that's just my two cents on it.  :)


Selam

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 - What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?



Still waiting on that NT piece of evidence against tattoos.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on April 14, 2014, 10:37:11 AM
Quote
Ask your priest what you should do, that way if it is a sin your priest will take the responsibility and it will be taken off your shoulders.

Boy are you going to be surprised on judgment day...
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: hecma925 on April 14, 2014, 11:31:20 AM
Quote
Ask your priest what you should do, that way if it is a sin your priest will take the responsibility and it will be taken off your shoulders.

Boy are you going to be surprised on judgment day...
I had a hearty chuckle.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Mor Ephrem on April 14, 2014, 12:44:38 PM
But while pork may now be considered religiously "clean," that doesn't change the properties of the physical pork one eats. If all things are literally clean, then that would mean that diseased rats are also clean; but I don't see Christians wolfing down diseased rat meat while proclaiming, "God says all things are clean!"

What are the properties of the physical pork people eat? 
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: hecma925 on April 14, 2014, 12:46:00 PM
But while pork may now be considered religiously "clean," that doesn't change the properties of the physical pork one eats. If all things are literally clean, then that would mean that diseased rats are also clean; but I don't see Christians wolfing down diseased rat meat while proclaiming, "God says all things are clean!"

What are the properties of the physical pork people eat? 

Delicious.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: vamrat on April 14, 2014, 04:33:40 PM
But while pork may now be considered religiously "clean," that doesn't change the properties of the physical pork one eats. If all things are literally clean, then that would mean that diseased rats are also clean; but I don't see Christians wolfing down diseased rat meat while proclaiming, "God says all things are clean!"

What are the properties of the physical pork people eat? 

Whatever they are, they are easy enough to change by applying heat.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on April 15, 2014, 12:04:01 AM
Wish I didn't have mine, my whole forearm is covered. My spiritual father has told me it's a sin but I did it before I was Orthodox. We are to be a light for non-Christians and I keep my tattoo covered at all times (even in the summer I wear long sleeve shirts) because I don't want others to fall into the sin of judgement because of something stupid I did in my youth. It's going to be a burden to me to never let anyone see it when I become a monk (God willing). I even asked my spiritual father if I should get it removed with a lazer but he told me "You are going to be worm food, do you want to spend  thousands of dollars on their dinner?"

I want to follow all the commandments of God, and it's clear about not getting tattoos.
The commandments of God are also very clear about not eating pork or oysters. Why do we not follow those anymore?

Tell me where in the NEW testament does it say that? I think you need to talk to your priest about OT and NT laws and how they work and what we believe and follow.
Are you sure you even understand what I just said? ???
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Rhinosaur on April 15, 2014, 12:27:36 AM
It's the only true way to worship:

(http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/5067/1343/320/931360/000559q9.jpg)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on April 15, 2014, 12:30:42 AM
It's the only true way to worship:

(http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/5067/1343/320/931360/000559q9.jpg)

I do not have the vocabulary (at least, which will pass muster here) to adequately express the unmitigated ghastliness of this waste of time, effort and ink.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on April 15, 2014, 12:31:51 AM
That looks like Charles Manson offering me a mentos...


please tell me it is not.....please....

I won't sleep now..

I probably won't sleep now regardless....
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on April 15, 2014, 12:32:37 AM
It's the only true way to worship:

(http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/5067/1343/320/931360/000559q9.jpg)

I do not have the vocabulary (at least, which will pass muster here) to adequately express the unmitigated ghastliness of this waste of time, effort and ink.
Be offended, LBK, be very offended. :laugh:
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on April 15, 2014, 12:37:27 AM
It's the only true way to worship:

(http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/5067/1343/320/931360/000559q9.jpg)

I do not have the vocabulary (at least, which will pass muster here) to adequately express the unmitigated ghastliness of this waste of time, effort and ink.
Be offended, LBK, be very offended. :laugh:

Everyone who calls himself Christian, Orthodox or otherwise, should be offended by this schlock. Seriously.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Rhinosaur on April 15, 2014, 12:39:54 AM
ON FIRE FOR THE LORD!

(http://www.sickchirpse.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Weird-Bad-Jesus-Tattoo-Muscle.jpg)

(http://www.sickchirpse.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Weird-Bad-Jesus-Tattoo-Snub-Nosed-Macaque.jpg)

(http://www.sickchirpse.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Weird-Bad-Jesus-Tattoo-Deep-South.jpg)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: JamesR on April 15, 2014, 12:42:18 AM
It's the only true way to worship:

(http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/5067/1343/320/931360/000559q9.jpg)

I do not have the vocabulary (at least, which will pass muster here) to adequately express the unmitigated ghastliness of this waste of time, effort and ink.
Be offended, LBK, be very offended. :laugh:

Everyone who calls himself Christian, Orthodox or otherwise, should be offended by this schlock. Seriously.

That's not a "schlock." For crying out loud, it doesn't even look a thing like Christ. It looks more like a happy Kurt Cobain with breath mints instead of heroin.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on April 15, 2014, 12:43:57 AM
No such thing as ' a Shlock'

its an adjective.



Schlock is an English word of Yiddish origin meaning "something cheap, shoddy, or inferior (perhaps from German Schlag, Yiddish shlak, meaning 'a stroke'; also possibly from German "Schlag"/"Schlagsahne", whipped cream)"

In the field of science, "schlock" refers to shoddy methods or unreliable results. In art, "schlock" is sometimes used as a synonym for kitsch.


So its a Schlock tattoo......cheap shoddy and inferior..
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on April 15, 2014, 12:44:09 AM
(http://www.sickchirpse.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Weird-Bad-Jesus-Tattoo-Deep-South.jpg)

Jesus with a bad case of Marfan Syndrome ....
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on April 15, 2014, 12:51:18 AM
It's the only true way to worship:

(http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/5067/1343/320/931360/000559q9.jpg)

I do not have the vocabulary (at least, which will pass muster here) to adequately express the unmitigated ghastliness of this waste of time, effort and ink.
Be offended, LBK, be very offended. :laugh:

Everyone who calls himself Christian, Orthodox or otherwise, should be offended by this schlock. Seriously.
You're not every Christian, LBK. ;)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on April 15, 2014, 12:53:29 AM

Jesus with a bad case of Marfan Syndrome ....

I can't face the picture again....but he also appears to be attempting to rip his own heart out.....perhaps so that it will all just be over.....
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on April 15, 2014, 12:54:49 AM
It's the only true way to worship:

(http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/5067/1343/320/931360/000559q9.jpg)

I do not have the vocabulary (at least, which will pass muster here) to adequately express the unmitigated ghastliness of this waste of time, effort and ink.
Be offended, LBK, be very offended. :laugh:

Everyone who calls himself Christian, Orthodox or otherwise, should be offended by this schlock. Seriously.
You're not every Christian, LBK. ;)

so you are not offended by Charlie Jesus offering you a Mentos?

I will pray for you...
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on April 15, 2014, 12:57:46 AM
It's the only true way to worship:

(http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/5067/1343/320/931360/000559q9.jpg)

I do not have the vocabulary (at least, which will pass muster here) to adequately express the unmitigated ghastliness of this waste of time, effort and ink.
Be offended, LBK, be very offended. :laugh:

Everyone who calls himself Christian, Orthodox or otherwise, should be offended by this schlock. Seriously.
You're not every Christian, LBK. ;)

so you are not offended by Charlie Jesus offering you a Mentos?

I will pray for you...
Please do. I need all the help I can get to tolerate much of what passes for wisdom around here. :laugh:
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on April 15, 2014, 01:14:19 AM
Please do. I need all the help I can get to tolerate much of what passes for wisdom around here. :laugh:

Then would you be kind enough to enlighten us poor ignorants as to what is wise and foolish on this thread?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on April 15, 2014, 01:21:36 AM
Please do. I need all the help I can get to tolerate much of what passes for wisdom around here. :laugh:

Then would you be kind enough to enlighten us poor ignorants as to what is wise and foolish on this thread?
For one, foolishness is your attempt to speak for the nebulous "us".
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on April 15, 2014, 01:26:45 AM
Please do. I need all the help I can get to tolerate much of what passes for wisdom around here. :laugh:

Then would you be kind enough to enlighten us poor ignorants as to what is wise and foolish on this thread?
For one, foolishness is your attempt to speak for the nebulous "us".

You are presuming to be the arbiter of wisdom and foolishness here.

Do you honestly think that the mentos Jesus tattoo is not something Christians, not just Orthodox Christians, should be offended by?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on April 15, 2014, 01:29:30 AM
Honestly...

I vote for MUST be offended...

its really just that badly done, thought out, and executed.

Actually...I will go even further.   Even atheist tattoo lovers would be offended at it.

Humanity weeps at how poorly done that is....
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on April 15, 2014, 01:38:36 AM
Please do. I need all the help I can get to tolerate much of what passes for wisdom around here. :laugh:

Then would you be kind enough to enlighten us poor ignorants as to what is wise and foolish on this thread?
For one, foolishness is your attempt to speak for the nebulous "us".

You are presuming to be the arbiter of wisdom and foolishness here.

Do you honestly think that the mentos Jesus tattoo is not something Christians, not just Orthodox Christians, should be offended by?
Why must it be seen as a Mentos Jesus, and why must we be so easily offended?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on April 15, 2014, 01:41:50 AM
Please do. I need all the help I can get to tolerate much of what passes for wisdom around here. :laugh:

Then would you be kind enough to enlighten us poor ignorants as to what is wise and foolish on this thread?
For one, foolishness is your attempt to speak for the nebulous "us".

You are presuming to be the arbiter of wisdom and foolishness here.

Do you honestly think that the mentos Jesus tattoo is not something Christians, not just Orthodox Christians, should be offended by?
Why must it be seen as a Mentos Jesus, and why must we be so easily offended?

please see above...

even if its not actually Jesus....

its Charlie Manson with Mentos.

we -must- all be offended by that....

transcends age, race, religion, everything...

I shall repeat.

It is Charlie.....Manson.....with ....Mentos.


more clear now?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on April 15, 2014, 01:44:05 AM
Please do. I need all the help I can get to tolerate much of what passes for wisdom around here. :laugh:

Then would you be kind enough to enlighten us poor ignorants as to what is wise and foolish on this thread?
For one, foolishness is your attempt to speak for the nebulous "us".

You are presuming to be the arbiter of wisdom and foolishness here.

Do you honestly think that the mentos Jesus tattoo is not something Christians, not just Orthodox Christians, should be offended by?
Why must it be seen as a Mentos Jesus, and why must we be so easily offended?

please see above...

even if its not actually Jesus....

its Charlie Manson with Mentos.

we -must- all be offended by that....

transcends age, race, religion, everything...

I shall repeat.

It is Charlie.....Manson.....with ....Mentos.


more clear now?
But why must we be offended?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on April 15, 2014, 01:51:19 AM

Why must it be seen as a Mentos Jesus,

1. The bearded fellow in the tattoo is intended to be Jesus, according to the sources of the picture.

2. He is holding a packet of Mentos.

Simple.

But why must we be offended?

You think it's OK for the Son of God to be portrayed in such a crass and flippant manner?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on April 15, 2014, 01:51:48 AM
Please do. I need all the help I can get to tolerate much of what passes for wisdom around here. :laugh:

Then would you be kind enough to enlighten us poor ignorants as to what is wise and foolish on this thread?
For one, foolishness is your attempt to speak for the nebulous "us".

You are presuming to be the arbiter of wisdom and foolishness here.

Do you honestly think that the mentos Jesus tattoo is not something Christians, not just Orthodox Christians, should be offended by?
Why must it be seen as a Mentos Jesus, and why must we be so easily offended?

please see above...

even if its not actually Jesus....

its Charlie Manson with Mentos.

we -must- all be offended by that....

transcends age, race, religion, everything...

I shall repeat.

It is Charlie.....Manson.....with ....Mentos.


more clear now?
But why must we be offended?

oh let me count the ways.......

granted..you are just being difficult to be difficult....but i shall play along.


1. Bad Art offends..
Marc Chagall-    “When I am finishing a picture I hold some God-made object up to it / a rock, a flower, the branch of a tree or my hand / as a kind of final test. If the painting stands up beside a thing man cannot make, the painting is authentic. If there's a clash between the two, it is bad art.”

This tattoo is so poorly executed that we cannot hold it up against either Charles Manson or Jesus and be sure which was meant.  

2. If it is Charles Manson, really? I need to explain why a tattoo of him is offensive in general?

3. Abuse of Mentos.  I am sure that many of us love Mentos, and having them associated with 1. a serial killer, and 2. hideous artwork, makes them less palatable.   Charlie Manson wouldn't even like that he is abusing Mentos like this, and he is an egotistical so and so.....


Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Gebre Menfes Kidus on April 15, 2014, 01:55:27 AM
But while pork may now be considered religiously "clean," that doesn't change the properties of the physical pork one eats. If all things are literally clean, then that would mean that diseased rats are also clean; but I don't see Christians wolfing down diseased rat meat while proclaiming, "God says all things are clean!"

What are the properties of the physical pork people eat? 

Whatever they are, they are easy enough to change by applying heat.

I don't care how long you cook bacon, it's still gonna be full of cholesterol. Some people might not be affected negatively by that, but lots of people will be. But I'm not here to crusade against pork. I just think that tattoos, if safely done, are less harmful to one's health than pork. But I now anticipate this leading to a raging OC.net debate about which is more sinful, tattoos or pork.  ;)


Selam
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on April 15, 2014, 01:56:21 AM

Why must it be seen as a Mentos Jesus,

1. The bearded fellow in the tattoo is intended to be Jesus, according to the sources of the picture.

2. He is holding a packet of Mentos.

Simple.

But why must we be offended?

You think it's OK for the Son of God to be portrayed in such a crass and flippant manner?

I didn't say it's okay, so please don't put words into my mouth. It's bad form. ;) I'm asking what good it does to get so offended by it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on April 15, 2014, 01:56:40 AM
That mentos one would be awesome if it looked more like Jesus. ;D Not as cool as Jesus bench pressing perhaps, but still a nice witness to the earthly incarnation and mission of Jesus, opposing those who would make Jesus too heavenly to be any earthly good.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on April 15, 2014, 02:00:23 AM

Why must it be seen as a Mentos Jesus,

1. The bearded fellow in the tattoo is intended to be Jesus, according to the sources of the picture.

2. He is holding a packet of Mentos.

Simple.

But why must we be offended?

You think it's OK for the Son of God to be portrayed in such a crass and flippant manner?

I didn't say it's okay, so please don't put words into my mouth. It's bad form. ;) I'm asking what good it does to get so offended by it.

I put no words in your mouth, I asked a question, which you've, at last, sort of answered.

Really, it does get rather tiresome to see you turn so much of what people say into an intellectual game for your own amusement.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on April 15, 2014, 02:02:15 AM

Why must it be seen as a Mentos Jesus,

1. The bearded fellow in the tattoo is intended to be Jesus, according to the sources of the picture.

2. He is holding a packet of Mentos.

Simple.

But why must we be offended?

You think it's OK for the Son of God to be portrayed in such a crass and flippant manner?

I didn't say it's okay, so please don't put words into my mouth. It's bad form. ;) I'm asking what good it does to get so offended by it.


That little squiggly line...at the end of the sentence......you know, this one ?

It means a question is being asked, not a statement inserted into your mouth.

A question you did not answer.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on April 15, 2014, 02:07:24 AM
Please do. I need all the help I can get to tolerate much of what passes for wisdom around here. :laugh:

Then would you be kind enough to enlighten us poor ignorants as to what is wise and foolish on this thread?
For one, foolishness is your attempt to speak for the nebulous "us".

You are presuming to be the arbiter of wisdom and foolishness here.

Do you honestly think that the mentos Jesus tattoo is not something Christians, not just Orthodox Christians, should be offended by?
Why must it be seen as a Mentos Jesus, and why must we be so easily offended?

please see above...

even if its not actually Jesus....

its Charlie Manson with Mentos.

we -must- all be offended by that....

transcends age, race, religion, everything...

I shall repeat.

It is Charlie.....Manson.....with ....Mentos.


more clear now?
But why must we be offended?

oh let me count the ways.......

granted..you are just being difficult to be difficult....but i shall play along.


1. Bad Art offends..
Marc Chagall-    “When I am finishing a picture I hold some God-made object up to it / a rock, a flower, the branch of a tree or my hand / as a kind of final test. If the painting stands up beside a thing man cannot make, the painting is authentic. If there's a clash between the two, it is bad art.”

This tattoo is so poorly executed that we cannot hold it up against either Charles Manson or Jesus and be sure which was meant.  

2. If it is Charles Manson, really? I need to explain why a tattoo of him is offensive in general?

3. Abuse of Mentos.  I am sure that many of us love Mentos, and having them associated with 1. a serial killer, and 2. hideous artwork, makes them less palatable.   Charlie Manson wouldn't even like that he is abusing Mentos like this, and he is an egotistical so and so.....



1. "Bad art offends." - Only if you let it offend you. But why should you be offended? No, I'm not asking this just to be difficult?

2. So what if it is Charles Manson? Why should we let an image of him offend us? Merely complaining that you have to actually explain why this offends you isn't a good answer.

3. Who really cares about Mentos, anyway?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Rhinosaur on April 15, 2014, 02:10:02 AM
(http://inkarttattoos.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/jesus-rocks-tattoo.jpg)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on April 15, 2014, 02:10:41 AM

Why must it be seen as a Mentos Jesus,

1. The bearded fellow in the tattoo is intended to be Jesus, according to the sources of the picture.

2. He is holding a packet of Mentos.

Simple.

But why must we be offended?

You think it's OK for the Son of God to be portrayed in such a crass and flippant manner?

I didn't say it's okay, so please don't put words into my mouth. It's bad form. ;) I'm asking what good it does to get so offended by it.


That little squiggly line...at the end of the sentence......you know, this one ?

It means a question is being asked, not a statement inserted into your mouth.

A question you did not answer.
And I'm not going to answer it, for it's loaded with the assumption that I said something I didn't say.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on April 15, 2014, 02:12:08 AM
Please do. I need all the help I can get to tolerate much of what passes for wisdom around here. :laugh:

Then would you be kind enough to enlighten us poor ignorants as to what is wise and foolish on this thread?
For one, foolishness is your attempt to speak for the nebulous "us".

You are presuming to be the arbiter of wisdom and foolishness here.

Do you honestly think that the mentos Jesus tattoo is not something Christians, not just Orthodox Christians, should be offended by?
Why must it be seen as a Mentos Jesus, and why must we be so easily offended?

please see above...

even if its not actually Jesus....

its Charlie Manson with Mentos.

we -must- all be offended by that....

transcends age, race, religion, everything...

I shall repeat.

It is Charlie.....Manson.....with ....Mentos.


more clear now?
But why must we be offended?

oh let me count the ways.......

granted..you are just being difficult to be difficult....but i shall play along.


1. Bad Art offends..
Marc Chagall-    “When I am finishing a picture I hold some God-made object up to it / a rock, a flower, the branch of a tree or my hand / as a kind of final test. If the painting stands up beside a thing man cannot make, the painting is authentic. If there's a clash between the two, it is bad art.”

This tattoo is so poorly executed that we cannot hold it up against either Charles Manson or Jesus and be sure which was meant.  

2. If it is Charles Manson, really? I need to explain why a tattoo of him is offensive in general?

3. Abuse of Mentos.  I am sure that many of us love Mentos, and having them associated with 1. a serial killer, and 2. hideous artwork, makes them less palatable.   Charlie Manson wouldn't even like that he is abusing Mentos like this, and he is an egotistical so and so.....



1. "Bad art offends." - Only if you let it offend you. But why should you be offended? No, I'm not asking this just to be difficult?

2. So what if it is Charles Manson? Why should we let an image of him offend us? Merely complaining that you have to actually explain why this offends you isn't a good answer.

3. Who really cares about Mentos, anyway?

1.  Having no standards leaves one open to falling for all sorts of rubbish.....this applies to both 'belief systems' (which i am sure you would agree with) and other things....like art, music...etc.  Have no standards and you are listening to atonal rubbish.....

2.  Tattoo of Jeffrey Dahmer? Hitler? Gacey?  These things should be offensive to humanity.  It glorifies something so utterly devoid of good.

3. I care...mentos are nice...and to have a serial killer as their spokestatoo....ugh.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on April 15, 2014, 02:18:24 AM

Why must it be seen as a Mentos Jesus,

1. The bearded fellow in the tattoo is intended to be Jesus, according to the sources of the picture.

2. He is holding a packet of Mentos.

Simple.

But why must we be offended?

You think it's OK for the Son of God to be portrayed in such a crass and flippant manner?

I didn't say it's okay, so please don't put words into my mouth. It's bad form. ;) I'm asking what good it does to get so offended by it.


That little squiggly line...at the end of the sentence......you know, this one ?

It means a question is being asked, not a statement inserted into your mouth.

A question you did not answer.
And I'm not going to answer it, for it's loaded with the assumption that I said something I didn't say.

Putting words in my mouth again, PtA, with your presumption, of which you have ample supply. I simply asked a straight question.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on April 15, 2014, 02:22:29 AM
Please do. I need all the help I can get to tolerate much of what passes for wisdom around here. :laugh:

Then would you be kind enough to enlighten us poor ignorants as to what is wise and foolish on this thread?
For one, foolishness is your attempt to speak for the nebulous "us".

You are presuming to be the arbiter of wisdom and foolishness here.

Do you honestly think that the mentos Jesus tattoo is not something Christians, not just Orthodox Christians, should be offended by?
Why must it be seen as a Mentos Jesus, and why must we be so easily offended?

please see above...

even if its not actually Jesus....

its Charlie Manson with Mentos.

we -must- all be offended by that....

transcends age, race, religion, everything...

I shall repeat.

It is Charlie.....Manson.....with ....Mentos.


more clear now?
But why must we be offended?

oh let me count the ways.......

granted..you are just being difficult to be difficult....but i shall play along.


1. Bad Art offends..
Marc Chagall-    “When I am finishing a picture I hold some God-made object up to it / a rock, a flower, the branch of a tree or my hand / as a kind of final test. If the painting stands up beside a thing man cannot make, the painting is authentic. If there's a clash between the two, it is bad art.”

This tattoo is so poorly executed that we cannot hold it up against either Charles Manson or Jesus and be sure which was meant.  

2. If it is Charles Manson, really? I need to explain why a tattoo of him is offensive in general?

3. Abuse of Mentos.  I am sure that many of us love Mentos, and having them associated with 1. a serial killer, and 2. hideous artwork, makes them less palatable.   Charlie Manson wouldn't even like that he is abusing Mentos like this, and he is an egotistical so and so.....



1. "Bad art offends." - Only if you let it offend you. But why should you be offended? No, I'm not asking this just to be difficult?

2. So what if it is Charles Manson? Why should we let an image of him offend us? Merely complaining that you have to actually explain why this offends you isn't a good answer.

3. Who really cares about Mentos, anyway?

1.  Having no standards leaves one open to falling for all sorts of rubbish.....this applies to both 'belief systems' (which i am sure you would agree with) and other things....like art, music...etc.  Have no standards and you are listening to atonal rubbish.....

2.  Tattoo of Jeffrey Dahmer? Hitler? Gacey?  These things should be offensive to humanity.  It glorifies something so utterly devoid of good.

3. I care...mentos are nice...and to have a serial killer as their spokestatoo....ugh.
1. I agree that some art is indeed rubbish, but that doesn't mean I'm required to be offended by it.

2. You're still arguing that images of mass murderers should cause offense as if this is some kind of given. That doesn't answer my fundamental question: Why?

3. Feel however you want about Mentos. I really don't care about them, for I never eat them.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on April 15, 2014, 02:26:00 AM
The phrase Crimes against Humanity comes to mind......things so bad, so dire, so devoid of any of the goodness left in humans after the fall, that they in essense  affect -everyone-, not just a few.


If you are not offended and cannot see why we should all be offended by the glorification of mass murderers and serial killers.....then I am afraid that I will be praying for you for a long time.

Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on April 15, 2014, 02:26:17 AM

Why must it be seen as a Mentos Jesus,

1. The bearded fellow in the tattoo is intended to be Jesus, according to the sources of the picture.

2. He is holding a packet of Mentos.

Simple.

But why must we be offended?

You think it's OK for the Son of God to be portrayed in such a crass and flippant manner?

I didn't say it's okay, so please don't put words into my mouth. It's bad form. ;) I'm asking what good it does to get so offended by it.


That little squiggly line...at the end of the sentence......you know, this one ?

It means a question is being asked, not a statement inserted into your mouth.

A question you did not answer.
And I'm not going to answer it, for it's loaded with the assumption that I said something I didn't say.

Putting words in my mouth again, PtA, with your presumption, of which you have ample supply. I simply asked a straight question.
Putting words into other peoples' mouths is your game, LBK. As much as you may like to think that was a straight question, it is loaded with presumptions to which I will not submit myself.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on April 15, 2014, 02:27:56 AM
(http://inkarttattoos.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/jesus-rocks-tattoo.jpg)

I'd be so let down if Jesus busted out a bass and then played with a pick, so in that way I'm pleased. I feel bad about whatever injury or disease left his leg like that though!
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on April 15, 2014, 02:28:55 AM
The phrase Crimes against Humanity comes to mind......things so bad, so dire, so devoid of any of the goodness left in humans after the fall, that they in essense  affect -everyone-, not just a few.


If you are not offended and cannot see why we should all be offended by the glorification of mass murderers and serial killers.....then I am afraid that I will be praying for you for a long time.


If that's how you're going to judge me, then please don't pray for me. These things are not as obvious as you think they are.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on April 15, 2014, 02:35:10 AM
The phrase Crimes against Humanity comes to mind......things so bad, so dire, so devoid of any of the goodness left in humans after the fall, that they in essense  affect -everyone-, not just a few.


If you are not offended and cannot see why we should all be offended by the glorification of mass murderers and serial killers.....then I am afraid that I will be praying for you for a long time.


If that's how you're going to judge me, then please don't pray for me. These things are not as obvious as you think they are.

Then, please, enlighten us on how we should see such things.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on April 15, 2014, 02:35:40 AM

Why must it be seen as a Mentos Jesus,

1. The bearded fellow in the tattoo is intended to be Jesus, according to the sources of the picture.

2. He is holding a packet of Mentos.

Simple.

But why must we be offended?

You think it's OK for the Son of God to be portrayed in such a crass and flippant manner?

I didn't say it's okay, so please don't put words into my mouth. It's bad form. ;) I'm asking what good it does to get so offended by it.

I put no words in your mouth, I asked a question, which you've, at last, sort of answered.

Really, it does get rather tiresome to see you turn so much of what people say into an intellectual game for your own amusement.
LBK, you should know by now that I am an opponent of unwarranted and excessive dogmatism. This isn't an intellectual game for me.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on April 15, 2014, 02:36:25 AM

Why must it be seen as a Mentos Jesus,

1. The bearded fellow in the tattoo is intended to be Jesus, according to the sources of the picture.

2. He is holding a packet of Mentos.

Simple.

But why must we be offended?

You think it's OK for the Son of God to be portrayed in such a crass and flippant manner?

I didn't say it's okay, so please don't put words into my mouth. It's bad form. ;) I'm asking what good it does to get so offended by it.


That little squiggly line...at the end of the sentence......you know, this one ?

It means a question is being asked, not a statement inserted into your mouth.

A question you did not answer.
And I'm not going to answer it, for it's loaded with the assumption that I said something I didn't say.

Putting words in my mouth again, PtA, with your presumption, of which you have ample supply. I simply asked a straight question.
Putting words into other peoples' mouths is your game, LBK. As much as you may like to think that was a straight question, it is loaded with presumptions to which I will not submit myself.

More presumption. It's clear you've lost the case.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on April 15, 2014, 02:38:38 AM
dogmatism like

Murder, cannibalism and  genocide are wrong, and thus glorying them in artwork is at the least distasteful and at the most offensive?


or is that excessive and unwarranted?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on April 15, 2014, 02:40:28 AM

Why must it be seen as a Mentos Jesus,

1. The bearded fellow in the tattoo is intended to be Jesus, according to the sources of the picture.

2. He is holding a packet of Mentos.

Simple.

But why must we be offended?

You think it's OK for the Son of God to be portrayed in such a crass and flippant manner?

I didn't say it's okay, so please don't put words into my mouth. It's bad form. ;) I'm asking what good it does to get so offended by it.

I put no words in your mouth, I asked a question, which you've, at last, sort of answered.

Really, it does get rather tiresome to see you turn so much of what people say into an intellectual game for your own amusement.
LBK, you should know by now that I am an opponent of unwarranted and excessive dogmatism. This isn't an intellectual game for me.

"Unwarranted and excessive dogmatism" is what you call my expression of disapproval of an image of a cheesy Jesus holding a packet of Mentos, and my expression that Christians should be offended by it? Oh, my.

The fact that this image happens to be a tattoo is almost beside the point. If it were a painting or drawing, this would not change the nature of the image.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on April 15, 2014, 02:42:06 AM

Why must it be seen as a Mentos Jesus,

1. The bearded fellow in the tattoo is intended to be Jesus, according to the sources of the picture.

2. He is holding a packet of Mentos.

Simple.

But why must we be offended?

You think it's OK for the Son of God to be portrayed in such a crass and flippant manner?

I didn't say it's okay, so please don't put words into my mouth. It's bad form. ;) I'm asking what good it does to get so offended by it.


That little squiggly line...at the end of the sentence......you know, this one ?

It means a question is being asked, not a statement inserted into your mouth.

A question you did not answer.
And I'm not going to answer it, for it's loaded with the assumption that I said something I didn't say.

Putting words in my mouth again, PtA, with your presumption, of which you have ample supply. I simply asked a straight question.
Putting words into other peoples' mouths is your game, LBK. As much as you may like to think that was a straight question, it is loaded with presumptions to which I will not submit myself.

More presumption. It's clear you've lost the case.
I'm not trying to win any "case". I think I have succeeded at accomplishing what I intended to accomplish, though. 8)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on April 15, 2014, 02:45:25 AM
The phrase Crimes against Humanity comes to mind......things so bad, so dire, so devoid of any of the goodness left in humans after the fall, that they in essense  affect -everyone-, not just a few.


If you are not offended and cannot see why we should all be offended by the glorification of mass murderers and serial killers.....then I am afraid that I will be praying for you for a long time.


If that's how you're going to judge me, then please don't pray for me. These things are not as obvious as you think they are.


Then, please, enlighten us on how we should see such things.


*bump*
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on April 15, 2014, 02:51:23 AM

Why must it be seen as a Mentos Jesus,

1. The bearded fellow in the tattoo is intended to be Jesus, according to the sources of the picture.

2. He is holding a packet of Mentos.

Simple.

But why must we be offended?

You think it's OK for the Son of God to be portrayed in such a crass and flippant manner?

I didn't say it's okay, so please don't put words into my mouth. It's bad form. ;) I'm asking what good it does to get so offended by it.


That little squiggly line...at the end of the sentence......you know, this one ?

It means a question is being asked, not a statement inserted into your mouth.

A question you did not answer.
And I'm not going to answer it, for it's loaded with the assumption that I said something I didn't say.

Putting words in my mouth again, PtA, with your presumption, of which you have ample supply. I simply asked a straight question.
Putting words into other peoples' mouths is your game, LBK. As much as you may like to think that was a straight question, it is loaded with presumptions to which I will not submit myself.

More presumption. It's clear you've lost the case.
I'm not trying to win any "case". I think I have succeeded at accomplishing what I intended to accomplish, though. 8)

The only thing you've accomplished is to scurry away from legitimate questions raised in response to your pseudo-rhetoric.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on April 15, 2014, 03:02:31 AM

Why must it be seen as a Mentos Jesus,

1. The bearded fellow in the tattoo is intended to be Jesus, according to the sources of the picture.

2. He is holding a packet of Mentos.

Simple.

But why must we be offended?

You think it's OK for the Son of God to be portrayed in such a crass and flippant manner?

I didn't say it's okay, so please don't put words into my mouth. It's bad form. ;) I'm asking what good it does to get so offended by it.


That little squiggly line...at the end of the sentence......you know, this one ?

It means a question is being asked, not a statement inserted into your mouth.

A question you did not answer.
And I'm not going to answer it, for it's loaded with the assumption that I said something I didn't say.

Putting words in my mouth again, PtA, with your presumption, of which you have ample supply. I simply asked a straight question.
Putting words into other peoples' mouths is your game, LBK. As much as you may like to think that was a straight question, it is loaded with presumptions to which I will not submit myself.

More presumption. It's clear you've lost the case.
I'm not trying to win any "case". I think I have succeeded at accomplishing what I intended to accomplish, though. 8)

The only thing you've accomplished is to scurry away from legitimate questions raised in response to your pseudo-rhetoric.
LBK, until you first answer my questions or engage my criticism of your point of view, I'm not going to answer your questions.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on April 15, 2014, 03:10:54 AM
I've already answered your questions. Go back and read my posts, which you seem to have missed in your eagerness to score rhetorical points.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on April 15, 2014, 03:15:07 AM
dogmatism like

Murder, cannibalism and  genocide are wrong, and thus glorying them in artwork is at the least distasteful and at the most offensive?


or is that excessive and unwarranted?
When you won't explain why we should find such artwork offensive except by repeating your same old assertion, then yes it is excessive and unwarranted dogmatism.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on April 15, 2014, 03:16:19 AM
I've already answered your questions. Go back and read my posts, which you seem to have missed in your eagerness to score rhetorical points.
No, you have not.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on April 15, 2014, 03:21:51 AM
I've already answered your questions. Go back and read my posts, which you seem to have missed in your eagerness to score rhetorical points.
No, you have not.

Allow me to remind you: Reply #308.

So, now, how about answering some of my questions?

EDIT: and the questions asked of you by DeniseDenise, out of common courtesy?

Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on April 15, 2014, 03:48:54 AM
I've already answered your questions. Go back and read my posts, which you seem to have missed in your eagerness to score rhetorical points.
No, you have not.

Allow me to remind you: Reply #308.

So, now, how about answering some of my questions?

EDIT: and the questions asked of you by DeniseDenise, out of common courtesy?


1. You only answered the question about why we should see the image as a Mentos Jesus. You did not answer my question about why we should find this offensive except with a loaded question of your own. That's not an answer.
2. I don't find Denise's answers to my questions satisfactory, so I'm not answering her questions. If that bothers her, let her take that up with me.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on April 15, 2014, 03:58:10 AM
Quote
You did not answer my question about why we should find this offensive except with a loaded question of your own. That's not an answer.

If you cannot fathom why reducing the Son of God to a cheesy, kitschy cartoon character with a tube of mints in his hand should be offensive and disrespectful to those who call themselves Christian, then your problem is much bigger than I thought.

Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Gebre Menfes Kidus on April 15, 2014, 04:15:06 AM
Well, can we at least all agree on one thing?: Tattoos of pigs and pigs with tattoos are anathema!


Selam
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Arachne on April 15, 2014, 04:45:03 AM
Well, can we at least all agree on one thing?: Tattoos of pigs and pigs with tattoos are anathema!


Selam

It's all in the declaration of intent:

(http://www.seriouseats.com/images/pigtattoo.jpg)

(http://www.tattoostime.com/images/342/pig-foods-color-ink-tattoo-on-arm.png)

And the steadiness of hand:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_zqFoq3qej2c/Rx-Ne9enkmI/AAAAAAAAFEo/MOmva4Dz7do/s640/Picture+5.png)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Mor Ephrem on April 15, 2014, 08:48:38 AM
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_zqFoq3qej2c/Rx-Ne9enkmI/AAAAAAAAFEo/MOmva4Dz7do/s640/Picture+5.png)

You win. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on April 15, 2014, 08:56:43 AM

2. I don't find Denise's answers to my questions satisfactory, so I'm not answering her questions. If that bothers her, let her take that up with me.

Dear Sir,

I have answered each and every question posed of me during this discussion. However I was not given the courtesy of being able to see your position at all.

I cannot find your answers satisfactory or unsatisfactory, due to their simply being absent. It does not bother me per se, since that clearly indicates you don't have an actual answer to give.

However, please do note that discussion or debate where one party decides they do not like the answers given by the other party, and thus refuses to give a proper rebuttal or any sort of rebuttal proper or not other than 'I don't like that, so i am taking myself off home now'
generally would mean that person in essence 'loses' the debate or discussion.

Which is not surprising, considering you were discussing merely to amuse yourself, and when it ceased to be the triumphal amusement you assumed....you left.

Have a lovely day.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Deep Roots on April 15, 2014, 09:38:52 AM
Still waiting on that NT evidence against tattoos.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: hecma925 on April 15, 2014, 10:00:56 AM
Leviticus 19 (also where the no marking or tattooing verse is):
Quote
And the Lord said to Moses, 2 “Say to all the congregation of the people of Israel, You shall be holy; for I the Lord your God am holy

Matthew 5:
Quote
17 “Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. 18 For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

But then, Acts 15:
Quote
28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

So, IDK.  I'm not saying I won't ever get one, but I'm beyond the high school/college age of wanting moronic tattoos.  Also, I don't think God will say, "Sweet tats, bro," when he comes to judge the living and the dead.  What I can interpret from this is if you're a Jew who comes to believe in Christ, keep upholding the Law.  If you're a Gentile, the Law has been relaxed for you so that you can keep to a few major points.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on April 15, 2014, 10:56:20 AM

2. I don't find Denise's answers to my questions satisfactory, so I'm not answering her questions. If that bothers her, let her take that up with me.

Dear Sir,

I have answered each and every question posed of me during this discussion.
Yes, you have given answers to my questions, but I don't think you really understand what I'm trying to elicit from you. You keep giving basically the same unsatisfactory answer but in different ways. You've made the assertion that it's essentially self-evident that the glorification of a mass murderer in a tattoo should cause Christians offense, and all you've done in engaging my questions is repeat this assertion. But you keep missing the point. Why should we be offended by anything a person decides to have tattooed on his body? What good do we accomplish by being offended by such petty matters? Is it really that important?

However I was not given the courtesy of being able to see your position at all.
Why is it important that you know that? Do you think that my participation in this debate necessarily requires that I have a position of my own that I can assert and prove?

I cannot find your answers satisfactory or unsatisfactory, due to their simply being absent. It does not bother me per se, since that clearly indicates you don't have an actual answer to give.
You can believe whatever you want about me, but your belief doesn't make it truth.

However, please do note that discussion or debate where one party decides they do not like the answers given by the other party, and thus refuses to give a proper rebuttal or any sort of rebuttal proper or not other than 'I don't like that, so i am taking myself off home now'
generally would mean that person in essence 'loses' the debate or discussion.
No, it doesn't mean that, for this is not about winning or losing.

Which is not surprising, considering you were discussing merely to amuse yourself, and when it ceased to be the triumphal amusement you assumed....you left.
Misunderstanding me is one thing, but making up stories about me is another thing entirely--I advise you, then, to stop doing that. I was not posting here merely for my amusement. You see, Denise, the battle against unwarranted dogmatism is not a game for me, as many on this forum will tell you. As such, I engage debates frequently not to assert dogmas of my own but to hold up a mirror to the other participants. You said things on this thread that communicated the message that you cannot see how any true Christian can possibly NOT be offended by a tattoo "glorifying" a mass murderer like Charles Manson or Jeffrey Dahmer. You judged me as being somehow deficient in my Christian faith and in need of prayer because I questioned you. Unless I have posted things to this thread that can actually be considered heresy, such as Arianism or a denial of the resurrection, what authority do you have to judge me as some kind of heretic for disagreeing with you? How does such a veiled ad hominem further clarify your reasoning?

Have a lovely day.
Another mistake you and so many other people on this forum have made about me is that my questioning of your point of view automatically means that I hold a contrary point of view. No it doesn't. I merely don't like BS assertions and unnecessary dogmatism. Can I be a bit pedantic about how I confront it? Absolutely! But it doesn't mean that I don't have a position of my own or that I do have one that's opposite yours. It just means that whatever point of view I do have I see as irrelevant to my goals for a debate.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on April 15, 2014, 11:02:04 AM

2. I don't find Denise's answers to my questions satisfactory, so I'm not answering her questions. If that bothers her, let her take that up with me.

Dear Sir,

I have answered each and every question posed of me during this discussion.
Yes, you have given answers to my questions, but I don't think you really understand what I'm trying to elicit from you. You keep giving basically the same unsatisfactory answer but in different ways. You've made the assertion that it's essentially self-evident that the glorification of a mass murderer in a tattoo should cause Christians offense, and all you've done in engaging my questions is repeat this assertion. But you keep missing the point. Why should we be offended by anything a person decides to have tattooed on his body? What good do we accomplish by being offended by such petty matters? Is it really that important?

However I was not given the courtesy of being able to see your position at all.
Why is it important that you know that? Do you think that my participation in this debate necessarily requires that I have a position of my own that I can assert and prove?

I cannot find your answers satisfactory or unsatisfactory, due to their simply being absent. It does not bother me per se, since that clearly indicates you don't have an actual answer to give.
You can believe whatever you want about me, but your belief doesn't make it truth.

However, please do note that discussion or debate where one party decides they do not like the answers given by the other party, and thus refuses to give a proper rebuttal or any sort of rebuttal proper or not other than 'I don't like that, so i am taking myself off home now'
generally would mean that person in essence 'loses' the debate or discussion.
No, it doesn't mean that, for this is not about winning or losing.

Which is not surprising, considering you were discussing merely to amuse yourself, and when it ceased to be the triumphal amusement you assumed....you left.
Misunderstanding me is one thing, but making up stories about me is another thing entirely--I advise you, then, to stop doing that. I was not posting here merely for my amusement. You see, Denise, the battle against unwarranted dogmatism is not a game for me, as many on this forum will tell you. As such, I engage debates frequently not to assert dogmas of my own but to hold up a mirror to the other participants. You said things on this thread that communicated the message that you cannot see how any true Christian can possibly NOT be offended by a tattoo "glorifying" a mass murderer like Charles Manson or Jeffrey Dahmer. You judged me as being somehow deficient in my Christian faith and in need of prayer because I questioned you. Unless I have posted things to this thread that can actually be considered heresy, such as Arianism or a denial of the resurrection, what authority do you have to judge me as some kind of heretic for disagreeing with you?

Have a lovely day.
Another mistake you and so many other people on this forum have made about me is that my questioning of your point of view automatically means that I hold a contrary point of view. No it doesn't. I merely don't like BS assertions and unnecessary dogmatism. Can I be a bit pedantic about how I confront it? Absolutely! But it doesn't mean that I don't have a position of my own or that I do have one that's opposite yours. It just means that whatever point of view I do have I see as irrelevant to my goals for a debate.


In other words...you debate...just to stir trouble.....fun hobby there. If you are not stating YOUR position...you are being argumentative to be argumentative.  Period.


And I did not question or Judge your Christianity at all.....go back and read my actual words.

If anything....I judged your -humanity-, since even the Godless and the non-Judeo Christians also abhor mass murders, cannibals and those who commit genocide.

Absolutely -zero- to do with Christianity at all, since I would call an athiest on glorifying those things just as much as I have called you on -accepting- the idea.

Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on April 15, 2014, 12:27:16 PM
Quote
It just means that whatever point of view I do have I see as irrelevant to my goals for a debate.

Hoist by your own petard.

This is a forum dedicated to the discussion of Orthodoxy, PtA. It is neither your personal plaything, nor is it a Toastmasters event.

Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on April 15, 2014, 12:34:06 PM
to participate in a 'discussion board, without ever showing your own personal self...some glimpse, but to exist there merely to refute any and every point made by others......without ever proposing your point....has got to be a lonely place'

The main joy most here get is -the interaction- with others....revealing parts of who we are...what brought us both to Orthodoxy and to the board...etc...

Even if it is a controlled release of info....its still 'getting to know people'.....as opposed to existing here to tell people they are wrong.

If that's all one does....why bother.


 :(
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: hecma925 on April 15, 2014, 12:49:17 PM
Memories of the "Smoking Weed" thread assault me.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on April 15, 2014, 12:50:44 PM
Memories of the "Smoking Weed" thread assault me.


Those drugs.....gives you flashbacks... :laugh:
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: hecma925 on April 15, 2014, 12:56:42 PM
Memories of the "Smoking Weed" thread assault me.


Those drugs.....gives you flashbacks... :laugh:

The LSD thread hasn't been created....yet.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Alpo on April 15, 2014, 01:05:07 PM
Memories of the "Smoking Weed" thread assault me.


Those drugs.....gives you flashbacks... :laugh:

The LSD thread hasn't been created....yet.

Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds! We need a thread about Progressive Rock
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: hecma925 on April 15, 2014, 01:08:53 PM
Memories of the "Smoking Weed" thread assault me.


Those drugs.....gives you flashbacks... :laugh:

The LSD thread hasn't been created....yet.

Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds! We need a thread about Progressive Rock

I hate that song.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Alpo on April 15, 2014, 01:12:57 PM
Memories of the "Smoking Weed" thread assault me.


Those drugs.....gives you flashbacks... :laugh:

The LSD thread hasn't been created....yet.

Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds! We need a thread about Progressive Rock

I hate that song.

You prefer the drug?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: hecma925 on April 15, 2014, 01:14:00 PM
Memories of the "Smoking Weed" thread assault me.


Those drugs.....gives you flashbacks... :laugh:

The LSD thread hasn't been created....yet.

Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds! We need a thread about Progressive Rock

I hate that song.

You prefer the drug?

I haven't tried it, but if it's anything like the song, I suppose I would hate it, too.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on April 15, 2014, 02:58:36 PM

2. I don't find Denise's answers to my questions satisfactory, so I'm not answering her questions. If that bothers her, let her take that up with me.

Dear Sir,

I have answered each and every question posed of me during this discussion.
Yes, you have given answers to my questions, but I don't think you really understand what I'm trying to elicit from you. You keep giving basically the same unsatisfactory answer but in different ways. You've made the assertion that it's essentially self-evident that the glorification of a mass murderer in a tattoo should cause Christians offense, and all you've done in engaging my questions is repeat this assertion. But you keep missing the point. Why should we be offended by anything a person decides to have tattooed on his body? What good do we accomplish by being offended by such petty matters? Is it really that important?

However I was not given the courtesy of being able to see your position at all.
Why is it important that you know that? Do you think that my participation in this debate necessarily requires that I have a position of my own that I can assert and prove?

I cannot find your answers satisfactory or unsatisfactory, due to their simply being absent. It does not bother me per se, since that clearly indicates you don't have an actual answer to give.
You can believe whatever you want about me, but your belief doesn't make it truth.

However, please do note that discussion or debate where one party decides they do not like the answers given by the other party, and thus refuses to give a proper rebuttal or any sort of rebuttal proper or not other than 'I don't like that, so i am taking myself off home now'
generally would mean that person in essence 'loses' the debate or discussion.
No, it doesn't mean that, for this is not about winning or losing.

Which is not surprising, considering you were discussing merely to amuse yourself, and when it ceased to be the triumphal amusement you assumed....you left.
Misunderstanding me is one thing, but making up stories about me is another thing entirely--I advise you, then, to stop doing that. I was not posting here merely for my amusement. You see, Denise, the battle against unwarranted dogmatism is not a game for me, as many on this forum will tell you. As such, I engage debates frequently not to assert dogmas of my own but to hold up a mirror to the other participants. You said things on this thread that communicated the message that you cannot see how any true Christian can possibly NOT be offended by a tattoo "glorifying" a mass murderer like Charles Manson or Jeffrey Dahmer. You judged me as being somehow deficient in my Christian faith and in need of prayer because I questioned you. Unless I have posted things to this thread that can actually be considered heresy, such as Arianism or a denial of the resurrection, what authority do you have to judge me as some kind of heretic for disagreeing with you?

Have a lovely day.
Another mistake you and so many other people on this forum have made about me is that my questioning of your point of view automatically means that I hold a contrary point of view. No it doesn't. I merely don't like BS assertions and unnecessary dogmatism. Can I be a bit pedantic about how I confront it? Absolutely! But it doesn't mean that I don't have a position of my own or that I do have one that's opposite yours. It just means that whatever point of view I do have I see as irrelevant to my goals for a debate.


In other words...you debate...just to stir trouble.....fun hobby there. If you are not stating YOUR position...you are being argumentative to be argumentative.  Period.


And I did not question or Judge your Christianity at all.....go back and read my actual words.

If anything....I judged your -humanity-, since even the Godless and the non-Judeo Christians also abhor mass murders, cannibals and those who commit genocide.

Absolutely -zero- to do with Christianity at all, since I would call an athiest on glorifying those things just as much as I have called you on -accepting- the idea.


1. The mirror I hold up shows a lot, such as how you will believe the fictions you create about me rather than the truth I tell about myself. Please don't do that.
2. Whether you judged my Christianity or my humanity doesn't matter. You judged me against standards you created. You have no authority to do that.
3. You evidently didn't read a single thing I said about about my point of view, for nowhere did I ever glorify any mass murderers. That is something you continue to read into my questions even though I have repeated to you that my questions are not to be read as advocating a point of view contrary to yours.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on April 15, 2014, 03:04:35 PM
Quote
It just means that whatever point of view I do have I see as irrelevant to my goals for a debate.

Hoist by your own petard.

This is a forum dedicated to the discussion of Orthodoxy, PtA. It is neither your personal plaything, nor is it a Toastmasters event.


I know what this forum is about. It is a forum devoted to the discussion of Orthodox Christianity, not of LBKianity. You are free to post the truth as you understand it, and I am free to challenge you on your assertions. That's how this forum works.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on April 15, 2014, 03:07:25 PM
It's a -discussion- board...not a refution board..

but -failing- to express your actual personal opinion....you are failing to discuss.

You appear to believe somehow that this is an effective way of participating here...quite likely in the vein of 'I shall show them their errors of logic'

What you fail to realise, is that by not expressing a choice...you don't -fail- to choose...you still choose...




'"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing." - Albert Einstein
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: JamesR on April 15, 2014, 05:14:57 PM
This'll probably rusty the jimmies of a few anti-tattoo proponents on here.

I'm already considering my second tattoo. I want to get a California flag on my left shoulder to impress the women in North Carolina with :)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on April 15, 2014, 05:17:46 PM
It's a -discussion- board...not a refution board..

but -failing- to express your actual personal opinion....you are failing to discuss.

You appear to believe somehow that this is an effective way of participating here...quite likely in the vein of 'I shall show them their errors of logic'

What you fail to realise, is that by not expressing a choice...you don't -fail- to choose...you still choose...




'"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing." - Albert Einstein

It's not my problem if you can't stand to be challenged on your point of view, Denise, or even have your POV refuted, but that's often what discussion needs to be.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on April 15, 2014, 05:18:11 PM
This'll probably rusty the jimmies of a few anti-tattoo proponents on here.

I'm already considering my second tattoo. I want to get a California flag on my left shoulder to impress the women in North Carolina with :)


Gonna need to put it on your face for any lady to see it.....
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: hecma925 on April 15, 2014, 06:37:25 PM
This'll probably rusty the jimmies of a few anti-tattoo proponents on here.

I'm already considering my second tattoo. I want to get a California flag on my left shoulder to impress the women in North Carolina with :)

I really want to see the quality of the women that would be impressed by that tattoo.  It would be a scream.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on April 15, 2014, 06:38:27 PM
This'll probably rusty the jimmies of a few anti-tattoo proponents on here.

I'm already considering my second tattoo. I want to get a California flag on my left shoulder to impress the women in North Carolina with :)

I really want to see the quality of the women that would be impressed by that tattoo.  It would be a scream.

it would be a scream...or they would be screaming?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: hecma925 on April 15, 2014, 06:39:43 PM
This'll probably rusty the jimmies of a few anti-tattoo proponents on here.

I'm already considering my second tattoo. I want to get a California flag on my left shoulder to impress the women in North Carolina with :)

I really want to see the quality of the women that would be impressed by that tattoo.  It would be a scream.

it would be a scream...or they would be screaming?
:-X :)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Theophania on April 15, 2014, 06:48:33 PM
This'll probably rusty the jimmies of a few anti-tattoo proponents on here.

I'm already considering my second tattoo. I want to get a California flag on my left shoulder to impress the women in North Carolina with :)

I really want to see the quality of the women that would be impressed by that tattoo.  It would be a scream.

it would be a scream...or they would be screaming?

Screaming at him to please marry them because they're so impressed by a tattoo of a state flag!

Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on April 15, 2014, 06:52:00 PM
This'll probably rusty the jimmies of a few anti-tattoo proponents on here.

I'm already considering my second tattoo. I want to get a California flag on my left shoulder to impress the women in North Carolina with :)

I really want to see the quality of the women that would be impressed by that tattoo.  It would be a scream.

it would be a scream...or they would be screaming?

Screaming at him to please marry them because they're so impressed by a tattoo of a state flag!



Well it is California..... :D


oh wait...that will have the opposite effect...in about 49 states.  :laugh:


Might want to consider getting some other state's flag....
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Arachne on April 15, 2014, 07:13:17 PM
This'll probably rusty the jimmies of a few anti-tattoo proponents on here.

I'm already considering my second tattoo. I want to get a California flag on my left shoulder to impress the women in North Carolina with :)

I really want to see the quality of the women that would be impressed by that tattoo.  It would be a scream.

it would be a scream...or they would be screaming?

Screaming at him to please marry them because they're so impressed by a tattoo of a state flag!

So they can have his legitimate babies. :angel:
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: JamesR on April 15, 2014, 07:41:53 PM
This'll probably rusty the jimmies of a few anti-tattoo proponents on here.

I'm already considering my second tattoo. I want to get a California flag on my left shoulder to impress the women in North Carolina with :)

I really want to see the quality of the women that would be impressed by that tattoo.  It would be a scream.

Doesn't matter as long as she's physically attractive. I'm no catch either  ;)

California has prestige. There's bound to be more than a few rural Southern women who'd be impressed by this strange, cultured man from a land of exotic wonder.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: JamesR on April 15, 2014, 07:42:09 PM
This'll probably rusty the jimmies of a few anti-tattoo proponents on here.

I'm already considering my second tattoo. I want to get a California flag on my left shoulder to impress the women in North Carolina with :)

I really want to see the quality of the women that would be impressed by that tattoo.  It would be a scream.

it would be a scream...or they would be screaming?

Screaming at him to please marry them because they're so impressed by a tattoo of a state flag!



Not just any State
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: JamesR on April 15, 2014, 07:42:47 PM
This'll probably rusty the jimmies of a few anti-tattoo proponents on here.

I'm already considering my second tattoo. I want to get a California flag on my left shoulder to impress the women in North Carolina with :)

I really want to see the quality of the women that would be impressed by that tattoo.  It would be a scream.

it would be a scream...or they would be screaming?

Screaming at him to please marry them because they're so impressed by a tattoo of a state flag!

So they can have his legitimate babies. :angel:

That's only if the vasectomy fails
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on April 15, 2014, 07:49:37 PM


California has prestige. There's bound to be more than a few rural Southern women who'd be impressed by this strange, cultured man from a land of exotic wonder.

Don't fool yourself into believing this rubbish.

As a Californian who has lived in 5 other states and 2 countries......it is not true.

Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Arachne on April 15, 2014, 08:04:36 PM
California has prestige. There's bound to be more than a few rural Southern women who'd be impressed by this strange, cultured man from a land of exotic wonder.

Those are likely to have brothers with shotguns, too. Not to mention cooler tattoos.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Mor Ephrem on April 15, 2014, 09:39:22 PM
There's bound to be more than a few rural Southern women who'd be impressed by this strange, cultured man from a land of exotic wonder.

What's his name?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: SolEX01 on April 15, 2014, 09:44:45 PM
I'm already considering my second tattoo. I want to get a California flag on my left shoulder to impress the women in North Carolina with :)

Only if the bear in the CA state flag is holding a package of Mentos.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Gebre Menfes Kidus on April 16, 2014, 02:40:30 AM
This'll probably rusty the jimmies of a few anti-tattoo proponents on here.

I'm already considering my second tattoo. I want to get a California flag on my left shoulder to impress the women in North Carolina with :)

I really want to see the quality of the women that would be impressed by that tattoo.  It would be a scream.

it would be a scream...or they would be screaming?

Screaming at him to please marry them because they're so impressed by a tattoo of a state flag!

So they can have his legitimate babies. :angel:

That's only if the vasectomy fails


tattoos > pork > vasectomies



Selam
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on April 16, 2014, 02:49:02 AM
It's a -discussion- board...not a refution board..

but -failing- to express your actual personal opinion....you are failing to discuss.

You appear to believe somehow that this is an effective way of participating here...quite likely in the vein of 'I shall show them their errors of logic'

What you fail to realise, is that by not expressing a choice...you don't -fail- to choose...you still choose...




'"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing." - Albert Einstein

It's not my problem if you can't stand to be challenged on your point of view, Denise, or even have your POV refuted, but that's often what discussion needs to be.

Another fail, PtA.

You did not refute Denise's POV, you simply gave a vague "I don't find Denise's answers to my questions satisfactory, so I'm not answering her questions", with no further clarification as to why you found them unsatisfactory.

You expect, and very often demand, that everyone else provides analyses of their opinions and positions, yet you scurry away when someone asks the same of you.  :P ::)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on April 16, 2014, 03:43:56 AM
It's a -discussion- board...not a refution board..

but -failing- to express your actual personal opinion....you are failing to discuss.

You appear to believe somehow that this is an effective way of participating here...quite likely in the vein of 'I shall show them their errors of logic'

What you fail to realise, is that by not expressing a choice...you don't -fail- to choose...you still choose...




'"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing." - Albert Einstein

It's not my problem if you can't stand to be challenged on your point of view, Denise, or even have your POV refuted, but that's often what discussion needs to be.

Another fail, PtA.

You did not refute Denise's POV, you simply gave a vague "I don't find Denise's answers to my questions satisfactory, so I'm not answering her questions", with no further clarification as to why you found them unsatisfactory.

You expect, and very often demand, that everyone else provides analyses of their opinions and positions, yet you scurry away when someone asks the same of you.  :P ::)
The fail is yours, LBK, for my words were not a specific claim that I was trying to refute Denise on this thread. Read my post again and you will see that I spoke only in general terms of what is often necessary in a discussion.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: LBK on April 16, 2014, 04:32:37 AM
It's a -discussion- board...not a refution board..

but -failing- to express your actual personal opinion....you are failing to discuss.

You appear to believe somehow that this is an effective way of participating here...quite likely in the vein of 'I shall show them their errors of logic'

What you fail to realise, is that by not expressing a choice...you don't -fail- to choose...you still choose...




'"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing." - Albert Einstein

It's not my problem if you can't stand to be challenged on your point of view, Denise, or even have your POV refuted, but that's often what discussion needs to be.

Another fail, PtA.

You did not refute Denise's POV, you simply gave a vague "I don't find Denise's answers to my questions satisfactory, so I'm not answering her questions", with no further clarification as to why you found them unsatisfactory.

You expect, and very often demand, that everyone else provides analyses of their opinions and positions, yet you scurry away when someone asks the same of you.  :P ::)
The fail is yours, LBK, for my words were not a specific claim that I was trying to refute Denise on this thread. Read my post again and you will see that I spoke only in general terms of what is often necessary in a discussion.

Here are your own words:

Quote
You're still arguing that images of mass murderers should cause offense as if this is some kind of given. That doesn't answer my fundamental question: Why?

Denise's response to this:

Quote
If you are not offended and cannot see why we should all be offended by the glorification of mass murderers and serial killers.....then I am afraid that I will be praying for you for a long time.

Your response:

Quote
When you won't explain why we should find such artwork offensive except by repeating your same old assertion, then yes it is excessive and unwarranted dogmatism.

You allege "excessive and and unwarranted dogmatism", yet make no effort to explain what this is, exactly. You've cast out this line many a time before, a tactic which does nothing to illuminate or further the discussion, but one which attempts to shut it down. This is certainly not a "refutation" of anything, just a personal opinion.

You're trying to call the shots, expecting us to play by your rules, yet you make no effort in explaining yourself. Like I said before, you're treating this place as your own intellectual playground, with littlel interest in actually participating in it as the rest of us try to do.

Your comment of

Quote
I don't find Denise's answers to my questions satisfactory, so I'm not answering her questions. If that bothers her, let her take that up with me.

well and truly let the cat out of the bag.

Sorry, PtA, your petty semantic games won't wash.

Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on April 16, 2014, 05:01:52 AM
It's a -discussion- board...not a refution board..

but -failing- to express your actual personal opinion....you are failing to discuss.

You appear to believe somehow that this is an effective way of participating here...quite likely in the vein of 'I shall show them their errors of logic'

What you fail to realise, is that by not expressing a choice...you don't -fail- to choose...you still choose...




'"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing." - Albert Einstein

It's not my problem if you can't stand to be challenged on your point of view, Denise, or even have your POV refuted, but that's often what discussion needs to be.

Another fail, PtA.

You did not refute Denise's POV, you simply gave a vague "I don't find Denise's answers to my questions satisfactory, so I'm not answering her questions", with no further clarification as to why you found them unsatisfactory.

You expect, and very often demand, that everyone else provides analyses of their opinions and positions, yet you scurry away when someone asks the same of you.  :P ::)
The fail is yours, LBK, for my words were not a specific claim that I was trying to refute Denise on this thread. Read my post again and you will see that I spoke only in general terms of what is often necessary in a discussion.

Here are your own words:

Quote
You're still arguing that images of mass murderers should cause offense as if this is some kind of given. That doesn't answer my fundamental question: Why?

Denise's response to this:

Quote
If you are not offended and cannot see why we should all be offended by the glorification of mass murderers and serial killers.....then I am afraid that I will be praying for you for a long time.

Your response:

Quote
When you won't explain why we should find such artwork offensive except by repeating your same old assertion, then yes it is excessive and unwarranted dogmatism.
LBK, you can't even mix and match responses correctly to construct the conversation you wish happened, for my "second" response above was NOT a direct response to Denise's response.

You allege "excessive and and unwarranted dogmatism", yet make no effort to explain what this is, exactly.
Because Denise never asked me to. You aren't Denise.

You've cast out this line many a time before, a tactic which does nothing to illuminate or further the discussion, but one which attempts to shut it down. This is certainly not a "refutation" of anything, just a personal opinion.
Just as that statement is merely your personal opinion.

You're trying to call the shots, expecting us to play by your rules, yet you make no effort in explaining yourself.
Why should I, especially when you use the same tactic of expecting everyone to play by your rules and making no effort to explain yourself when you are asked to do so? Hoisted by your own petard?

Like I said before, you're treating this place as your own intellectual playground, with littlel interest in actually participating in it as the rest of us try to do.
You're the only one who tries to participate the way you do, so please don't speak for "the rest of us". I play devil's advocate from time to time to elicit discussion. You use the tactics of scolding to control discussion and squelch that discussion which you don't like. See the difference?

Your comment of

Quote
I don't find Denise's answers to my questions satisfactory, so I'm not answering her questions. If that bothers her, let her take that up with me.

well and truly let the cat out of the bag.
Then let Denise speak for herself.

Sorry, PtA, your petty semantic games won't wash.
Maybe not with you, but they're not petty semantic games to me. If you don't like that, then maybe you can try playing by the rules rather than try to change the rules to suit your personal tastes.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on April 16, 2014, 06:39:24 AM
I am not even going to bother to play the let's quote and then we can rip apart tinier and tinier pieces game.

Saying you play devils advocate on occasion, is an understatement. That is ALL you ever do. Since it frees you from having to express anything personal. 'Oh I was just trying to get YOU to think'

Here is the thing. That does work here and there. But when that becomes your only opinion, even when asked what yours is, it serves no purpose save that of making sure you can just swap and say 'oh that's not my actual opinion' when someone calls you out about something you say.

That's such a large cop out. 
 
Earlier you accused me of not liking my opinions questioned. Funny that my posting history even as recently as yesterday includes a 'oh I was wrong about that part then, I apologize' statement.
Does that sound like a real issue dealing with being wrong?

Contrast that with your response when asked to actually opine. 'Nuh huh, I don't have to' and then you go back to accusing others and hope no one notices the lack of actual opinions and things shared.

Opine or get off the pot
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: hecma925 on April 16, 2014, 08:14:17 AM
This'll probably rusty the jimmies of a few anti-tattoo proponents on here.

I'm already considering my second tattoo. I want to get a California flag on my left shoulder to impress the women in North Carolina with :)

I really want to see the quality of the women that would be impressed by that tattoo.  It would be a scream.

Doesn't matter as long as she's physically attractive. I'm no catch either  ;)

California has prestige. There's bound to be more than a few rural Southern women who'd be impressed by this strange, cultured man from a land of exotic wonder.

That makes sense coming from a Californian.  Prestige in relation to what?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on April 16, 2014, 08:49:11 AM
This'll probably rusty the jimmies of a few anti-tattoo proponents on here.

I'm already considering my second tattoo. I want to get a California flag on my left shoulder to impress the women in North Carolina with :)

I really want to see the quality of the women that would be impressed by that tattoo.  It would be a scream.

Doesn't matter as long as she's physically attractive. I'm no catch either  ;)

California has prestige. There's bound to be more than a few rural Southern women who'd be impressed by this strange, cultured man from a land of exotic wonder.

That makes sense coming from a Californian.  Prestige in relation to what?

It doesn't.

That's a mental picture of hype.

Anyhow, I remembered where I saw Bear Flag (CA) tattoos recently!
First was on a guy who pumped my gas in Oregon. Just about the worse place to have your CA-ness showing on the west coast.

Second was up here in WA, one of the guys at the drive through window at Taco Time has one too!

Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: hecma925 on April 16, 2014, 08:55:13 AM
This'll probably rusty the jimmies of a few anti-tattoo proponents on here.

I'm already considering my second tattoo. I want to get a California flag on my left shoulder to impress the women in North Carolina with :)

I really want to see the quality of the women that would be impressed by that tattoo.  It would be a scream.

Doesn't matter as long as she's physically attractive. I'm no catch either  ;)

California has prestige. There's bound to be more than a few rural Southern women who'd be impressed by this strange, cultured man from a land of exotic wonder.

That makes sense coming from a Californian.  Prestige in relation to what?

It doesn't.

That's a mental picture of hype.

Anyhow, I remembered where I saw Bear Flag (CA) tattoos recently!
First was on a guy who pumped my gas in Oregon. Just about the worse place to have your CA-ness showing on the west coast.

Second was up here in WA, one of the guys at the drive through window at Taco Time has one too!



Having a Canadian flag tattoo would be more exotic.  But I have seen far more people with a Canadian flag tattoo, rather than folks with a California flag tattoo.  Actually, I've never seen anyone with a CA flag tattoo, or even the bear and star.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Mor Ephrem on April 16, 2014, 10:07:25 AM
Taco Time

That sounds wonderful.  Is it?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: hecma925 on April 16, 2014, 10:17:49 AM
Taco Time

That sounds wonderful.  Is it?

Should I resurrect that thread, too?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on April 16, 2014, 10:19:58 AM
Taco Time

That sounds wonderful.  Is it?

It is.. it's fast food, but all locally sourced ingredients.  They have a plain bean burrito that often makes a quick Friday dinner for me (my catechisis classes used to be on Friday, so i was always rushing)

The only thing i would change about them...is the odd NW tendency to serve tater tots instead of fries...  a burrito and tater tots?   :-\
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: hecma925 on April 16, 2014, 10:21:18 AM
Taco Time

That sounds wonderful.  Is it?

It is.. it's fast food, but all locally sourced ingredients.  They have a plain bean burrito that often makes a quick Friday dinner for me (my catechisis classes used to be on Friday, so i was always rushing)

The only thing i would change about them...is the odd NW tendency to serve tater tots instead of fries...  a burrito and tater tots?   :-\

Mmmm, tater tots.  But, is it normal to serve fries with a burrito?  That's a new one.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on April 16, 2014, 10:22:16 AM


California has prestige. There's bound to be more than a few rural Southern women who'd be impressed by this strange, cultured man from a land of exotic wonder.

Two things about this....

if you keep referring to them as rural and all the other 'fun' things you keep calling them.....you are going to end up nutless in NC.

secondly...when a 19 year old says 'strange cultured man'   I can only think you must be slightly soured ...like yogurt.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on April 16, 2014, 10:23:01 AM
Taco Time

That sounds wonderful.  Is it?

It is.. it's fast food, but all locally sourced ingredients.  They have a plain bean burrito that often makes a quick Friday dinner for me (my catechisis classes used to be on Friday, so i was always rushing)

The only thing i would change about them...is the odd NW tendency to serve tater tots instead of fries...  a burrito and tater tots?   :-\

Mmmm, tater tots.  But, is it normal to serve fries with a burrito?  That's a new one.


if you order a combo...

either way...the tater tot as a potato side dish...is quite odd to me..and it happens all the time up here...
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: hecma925 on April 16, 2014, 10:28:35 AM
Taco Time

That sounds wonderful.  Is it?

It is.. it's fast food, but all locally sourced ingredients.  They have a plain bean burrito that often makes a quick Friday dinner for me (my catechisis classes used to be on Friday, so i was always rushing)

The only thing i would change about them...is the odd NW tendency to serve tater tots instead of fries...  a burrito and tater tots?   :-\

Mmmm, tater tots.  But, is it normal to serve fries with a burrito?  That's a new one.


if you order a combo...

either way...the tater tot as a potato side dish...is quite odd to me..and it happens all the time up here...

Still...pseudo-Mexican food with fries....tasty, but strange.  That'd be like going to In-and-Out Burgers and getting chips and queso dip with your burger.  Good, just odd.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on April 16, 2014, 10:31:19 AM
Taco Time

That sounds wonderful.  Is it?

It is.. it's fast food, but all locally sourced ingredients.  They have a plain bean burrito that often makes a quick Friday dinner for me (my catechisis classes used to be on Friday, so i was always rushing)

The only thing i would change about them...is the odd NW tendency to serve tater tots instead of fries...  a burrito and tater tots?   :-\

Mmmm, tater tots.  But, is it normal to serve fries with a burrito?  That's a new one.


if you order a combo...

either way...the tater tot as a potato side dish...is quite odd to me..and it happens all the time up here...

Still...pseudo-Mexican food with fries....tasty, but strange.  That'd be like going to In-and-Out Burgers and getting chips and queso dip with your burger.  Good, just odd.

oh...now you have gone and done it.....just had to mention the in-and-out now didn't you?    ::)


That's the thing that makes me the most sad when living exiled  elsewhere.....

I may have to stop talking to you for 10 min in protest!
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: hecma925 on April 16, 2014, 10:41:52 AM
Taco Time

That sounds wonderful.  Is it?

It is.. it's fast food, but all locally sourced ingredients.  They have a plain bean burrito that often makes a quick Friday dinner for me (my catechisis classes used to be on Friday, so i was always rushing)

The only thing i would change about them...is the odd NW tendency to serve tater tots instead of fries...  a burrito and tater tots?   :-\

Mmmm, tater tots.  But, is it normal to serve fries with a burrito?  That's a new one.


if you order a combo...

either way...the tater tot as a potato side dish...is quite odd to me..and it happens all the time up here...

Still...pseudo-Mexican food with fries....tasty, but strange.  That'd be like going to In-and-Out Burgers and getting chips and queso dip with your burger.  Good, just odd.

oh...now you have gone and done it.....just had to mention the in-and-out now didn't you?    ::)


That's the thing that makes me the most sad when living exiled  elsewhere.....

I may have to stop talking to you for 10 min in protest!

Hey, I got to taste those glorious burgers once, but there are none of those near where I live.  Although there are a few good burger joints.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on April 16, 2014, 10:44:48 AM
Taco Time

That sounds wonderful.  Is it?

It is.. it's fast food, but all locally sourced ingredients.  They have a plain bean burrito that often makes a quick Friday dinner for me (my catechisis classes used to be on Friday, so i was always rushing)

The only thing i would change about them...is the odd NW tendency to serve tater tots instead of fries...  a burrito and tater tots?   :-\

Mmmm, tater tots.  But, is it normal to serve fries with a burrito?  That's a new one.


if you order a combo...

either way...the tater tot as a potato side dish...is quite odd to me..and it happens all the time up here...

Still...pseudo-Mexican food with fries....tasty, but strange.  That'd be like going to In-and-Out Burgers and getting chips and queso dip with your burger.  Good, just odd.

oh...now you have gone and done it.....just had to mention the in-and-out now didn't you?    ::)


That's the thing that makes me the most sad when living exiled  elsewhere.....

I may have to stop talking to you for 10 min in protest!

Hey, I got to taste those glorious burgers once, but there are none of those near where I live.  Although there are a few good burger joints.


now there is a tattoo i could get behind....Double double and fries...;)

I actually know precisely where the last In-and-Out heading North out of Cali is...I stop each and every time I drive back up...breakfast time...no worries...I wait... :P
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: hecma925 on April 16, 2014, 10:55:51 AM
Animal style for me...caramelized onions are tops.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on April 16, 2014, 10:58:07 AM
Animal style for me...caramelized onions are tops.


oh fancy words...you don't actually order them like that....?


the word...is grilled.


Grilled Onions.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on April 16, 2014, 11:01:46 AM
Animal style for me...caramelized onions are tops.


oh fancy words...you don't actually order them like that....?


the word...is grilled.


Grilled Onions.

I saw a cardboard cutout ad in McDonalds yesterday that said it had caramelized onions on its new sandwich  :angel:
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on April 16, 2014, 11:03:46 AM
Animal style for me...caramelized onions are tops.


oh fancy words...you don't actually order them like that....?


the word...is grilled.


Grilled Onions.

I saw a cardboard cutout ad in McDonalds yesterday that said it had caramelized onions on its new sandwich  :angel:



BITE YOUR TONGUE!

In-and-out is NOT McDonalds...I don't care if MCD wants to pretend to be fancy....

Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: hecma925 on April 16, 2014, 12:16:51 PM
Animal style for me...caramelized onions are tops.


oh fancy words...you don't actually order them like that....?


the word...is grilled.


Grilled Onions.

Umm, it is called "grilled", but I've had grilled onions and Animal Style's onions are not merely "grilled".  Those suckers are chopped and, yes, caramelized almost to a paste.  YummY!
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on April 16, 2014, 12:18:08 PM
I am not even going to bother to play the let's quote and then we can rip apart tinier and tinier pieces game.

Saying you play devils advocate on occasion, is an understatement. That is ALL you ever do. Since it frees you from having to express anything personal. 'Oh I was just trying to get YOU to think'
Denise, when will you actually believe what I tell you about myself rather than what you want to believe about me?

Here is the thing. That does work here and there. But when that becomes your only opinion, even when asked what yours is, it serves no purpose save that of making sure you can just swap and say 'oh that's not my actual opinion' when someone calls you out about something you say.

That's such a large cop out. 
 
Earlier you accused me of not liking my opinions questioned.
You do know what the word "IF" means? I did not accuse you of not liking your opinions questioned.

Funny that my posting history even as recently as yesterday includes a 'oh I was wrong about that part then, I apologize' statement.
Does that sound like a real issue dealing with being wrong?

Contrast that with your response when asked to actually opine. 'Nuh huh, I don't have to' and then you go back to accusing others and hope no one notices the lack of actual opinions and things shared.

Opine or get off the pot
I've not seen you make a legitimate request that I share my opinion, Denise. I tried to elicit from you further clarification of your opinion, which is a legitimate thing to do in a discussion, and you chose to deflect my questioning by asking me for my opinion. That's not a legitimate way to answer a question asked of you. I share my opinions when I want to, not when someone makes a demand for my opinion in an attempt to deflect hard questions of their opinion.

If you don't want to answer further questions about your point of view, that's fine. I won't push it any farther.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on April 16, 2014, 12:22:17 PM
I am not even going to bother to play the let's quote and then we can rip apart tinier and tinier pieces game.

Saying you play devils advocate on occasion, is an understatement. That is ALL you ever do. Since it frees you from having to express anything personal. 'Oh I was just trying to get YOU to think'
Denise, when will you actually believe what I tell you about myself rather than what you want to believe about me?

Here is the thing. That does work here and there. But when that becomes your only opinion, even when asked what yours is, it serves no purpose save that of making sure you can just swap and say 'oh that's not my actual opinion' when someone calls you out about something you say.

That's such a large cop out. 
 
Earlier you accused me of not liking my opinions questioned.
You do know what the word "IF" means? I did not accuse you of not liking your opinions questioned.

Funny that my posting history even as recently as yesterday includes a 'oh I was wrong about that part then, I apologize' statement.
Does that sound like a real issue dealing with being wrong?

Contrast that with your response when asked to actually opine. 'Nuh huh, I don't have to' and then you go back to accusing others and hope no one notices the lack of actual opinions and things shared.

Opine or get off the pot
I've not seen you make a legitimate request that I share my opinion, Denise. I tried to elicit from you further clarification of your opinion, which is a legitimate thing to do in a discussion, and you chose to deflect my questioning by asking me for my opinion. That's not a legitimate way to answer a question asked of you. I share my opinions when I want to, not when someone makes a demand for my opinion in an attempt to deflect hard questions of their opinion.

If you don't want to answer further questions about your point of view, that's fine. I won't push it any farther.


Honestly...you are not worth the green dot I would get for saying what I think of your -style- or tactics or whatever you think what you do is. I do hope it makes you pleased and that you enjoy your little sport.

Have a wonderful Pascha.

Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Hawkeye on April 21, 2014, 05:31:52 AM
Photo of Tsar St. Nicholas' forearm dragon tattoo:

(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0jb7cDu6w1r8eehr.jpg)

I'm no fan of tattoos myself but that's pretty cool.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Theophania on April 21, 2014, 11:13:18 AM
Photo of Tsar St. Nicholas' forearm dragon tattoo:

(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0jb7cDu6w1r8eehr.jpg)

I'm no fan of tattoos myself but that's pretty cool.

It was apparently very colorful and detailed. It was done in Japan.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: ZealousZeal on April 21, 2014, 02:33:53 PM
This'll probably rusty the jimmies of a few anti-tattoo proponents on here.

I'm already considering my second tattoo. I want to get a California flag on my left shoulder to impress the women in North Carolina with :)

Oh James... but the California flag is so goofy.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Mor Ephrem on April 21, 2014, 02:43:58 PM
Oh James... but the California flag is so goofy.

Seriously. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on April 21, 2014, 03:42:06 PM
When I was in high school I wanted to get a huge Master of Puppets album cover tat, but with "RIP CLIFF" rather than the album title. That would have been so sweet rad awesome cool amazing boss  ;D

(http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/uponsun/assets_c/2011/03/master-of-puppets-thumb-500x500.jpg)

(Ps. Sorry for the delay, William)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: TheTrisagion on April 29, 2014, 09:35:17 AM
Wish I didn't have mine, my whole forearm is covered. My spiritual father has told me it's a sin but I did it before I was Orthodox. We are to be a light for non-Christians and I keep my tattoo covered at all times (even in the summer I wear long sleeve shirts) because I don't want others to fall into the sin of judgement because of something stupid I did in my youth. It's going to be a burden to me to never let anyone see it when I become a monk (God willing). I even asked my spiritual father if I should get it removed with a lazer but he told me "You are going to be worm food, do you want to spend  thousands of dollars on their dinner?"

I want to follow all the commandments of God, and it's clear about not getting tattoos.
That is probably the most awesome quote I have read in quite some time.  ;D
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Adela on May 22, 2014, 08:48:07 AM
There's a traditional form of tattooing done in Croatian Roman Catholic areas of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  I'm not sure if any Orthodox Christians in that area also did this.  But, the Catholic Slavs did it to try to protect their children from being taken by the Ottoman Muslims to be sent off to Turkey, and the women from being raped by the Ottomans.  And, to show that they were Christian if they were forced to convert to Islam. 

http://folklored.blogspot.com/2012/04/tattooing-of-croatian-women-in-bosnia.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_tattooing_in_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina

(http://www.ntmymagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Capture-d%E2%80%99%C3%A9cran-2014-01-24-%C3%A0-13.39.12.png)

(http://www.viceland.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/39825_140913675937081_100000553494837_288895_2142539_n.jpg)

(http://www.viceland.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/176147_10150100496572762_543767761_6427726_7112484_o.jpeg)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Nessima on May 25, 2014, 12:17:07 PM
I have a white tattoo on my wrist.  Just one word "Pray".  It isn't very obvious but it is a constant reminder to myself.  I am coming from a Roman Catholic past and have been corresponding with a Priest in another town. There are no churches where we live.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on November 19, 2014, 02:29:47 PM
I've been wondering how to proceed with the cross on my left arm, which I'd like to have other similarly religious art with. I'm not really that big on praying hands and depictions of (saintly) people and all that, so I'm most likely just going to incorporate some other crosses, like...

(http://i.imgur.com/1UXPQlQ.jpg)

...with some kind of background. I'm sort of locked in to some extent at this point by the size, shape, placement, etc. of the cross I already have.

Got some more done. Still working on it. Making progress. Sort of. Things got messed up as well. Meh. General idea, with more to be added later...

(http://i.imgur.com/BJ7RAD5.jpg)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 19, 2014, 03:15:18 PM
Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit and are not our own to do with as we please. It was purchased at a great price, namely the sacrifice of the only begotten Son of God. We are to give glory to God with our bodies. Therefore, when God forbids tattoos or body piercing in the old testament, for us to believe in the trinity of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, then we must consider that it doesn't matter what year in modern times this is to God. Times may change and people may change, but to God the Father, Son Or Holy Spirit....He is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Leviticus 19:28 states this plainly.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 19, 2014, 03:17:01 PM
There's a traditional form of tattooing done in Croatian Roman Catholic areas of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  I'm not sure if any Orthodox Christians in that area also did this.  But, the Catholic Slavs did it to try to protect their children from being taken by the Ottoman Muslims to be sent off to Turkey, and the women from being raped by the Ottomans.  And, to show that they were Christian if they were forced to convert to Islam. 

http://folklored.blogspot.com/2012/04/tattooing-of-croatian-women-in-bosnia.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_tattooing_in_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina

(http://www.ntmymagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Capture-d%E2%80%99%C3%A9cran-2014-01-24-%C3%A0-13.39.12.png)

(http://www.viceland.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/39825_140913675937081_100000553494837_288895_2142539_n.jpg)

(http://www.viceland.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/176147_10150100496572762_543767761_6427726_7112484_o.jpeg)

They should never be forced to convert to Islam, as they should not convert.  I know its easy to say, but a tattoo would not "keep them Christian".  Their confession of faith be in pain or death would do this.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: TheTrisagion on November 19, 2014, 04:12:11 PM
Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit and are not our own to do with as we please. It was purchased at a great price, namely the sacrifice of the only begotten Son of God. We are to give glory to God with our bodies. Therefore, when God forbids tattoos or body piercing in the old testament, for us to believe in the trinity of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, then we must consider that it doesn't matter what year in modern times this is to God. Times may change and people may change, but to God the Father, Son Or Holy Spirit....He is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Leviticus 19:28 states this plainly.
Good point. That is why I don't wear clothes and shamefully attempt to cover God's temple.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: JamesR on November 19, 2014, 10:31:10 PM
I'm planning my next tattoo of the Jesus Prayer in its original language on my left lower arm.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 19, 2014, 10:48:49 PM
So is the consensus of the forum the following -


"God told us not to get tattoos."
"We don't have to listen to God."
"It doesn't matter if its in the bible."
"Tattoos are okay."
?

This isn't the EO church I remember.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: TheTrisagion on November 19, 2014, 10:59:43 PM
So is the consensus of the forum the following -


"God told us not to get tattoos."
"We don't have to listen to God."
"It doesn't matter if its in the bible."
"Tattoos are okay."
?

This isn't the EO church I remember.
I this is more like this:

"Yesh thinks God told us not to get tattoos."
"We don't have to listen to Yesh"
"It isn't actually in the Bible"
"I am more interested in my own self than what someone else puts on their body."
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 20, 2014, 12:28:26 AM
I'm planning my next tattoo of the Jesus Prayer in its original language on my left lower arm.

Aramaic?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 24, 2014, 01:03:32 AM
So is the consensus of the forum the following -


"God told us not to get tattoos."
"We don't have to listen to God."
"It doesn't matter if its in the bible."
"Tattoos are okay."
?

This isn't the EO church I remember.
I this is more like this:

"Yesh thinks God told us not to get tattoos."
"We don't have to listen to Yesh"
"It isn't actually in the Bible"
"I am more interested in my own self than what someone else puts on their body."

I'm curious why you say it is not in the bible. ?  I cited the scripture.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Nephi on November 24, 2014, 01:17:03 AM
They should never be forced to convert to Islam, as they should not convert.  I know its easy to say, but a tattoo would not "keep them Christian".  Their confession of faith be in pain or death would do this.

And you're speaking from all of your first-hand experience as a Christian minority in an Islamic country where you fear that your children could be kidnapped, forcibly converted, and raised Muslim in a Muslim family at any time? If only they had you as their example, they wouldn't even need that Jesus guy.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: TheTrisagion on November 24, 2014, 01:27:10 AM
So is the consensus of the forum the following -


"God told us not to get tattoos."
"We don't have to listen to God."
"It doesn't matter if its in the bible."
"Tattoos are okay."
?

This isn't the EO church I remember.
I this is more like this:

"Yesh thinks God told us not to get tattoos."
"We don't have to listen to Yesh"
"It isn't actually in the Bible"
"I am more interested in my own self than what someone else puts on their body."

I'm curious why you say it is not in the bible. ?  I cited the scripture.
Ok, to clarify, there is a reference to it under the Law given to the Jews, which as St. Peter and the Council in Jerusalem determined, doesn't apply to us. Unless, of course, you want to condemn people for trimming their beards as well like says in the verse before.

Quote
Lev 19:27; "You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard. "

Or a bit earlier in the chapter where it condemns interbreeding cattle, sowing two kinds of seed in the field and mixing fabrics.

Quote
Lev 19:19; "You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together."
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: hecma925 on November 24, 2014, 01:28:45 PM
I'm getting the book of Leviticus on my back in Hebrew.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 24, 2014, 01:47:00 PM
They should never be forced to convert to Islam, as they should not convert.  I know its easy to say, but a tattoo would not "keep them Christian".  Their confession of faith be in pain or death would do this.

And you're speaking from all of your first-hand experience as a Christian minority in an Islamic country where you fear that your children could be kidnapped, forcibly converted, and raised Muslim in a Muslim family at any time? If only they had you as their example, they wouldn't even need that Jesus guy.

No, you are speaking from an angle of attack.  The Jesus clearly tells us that whoever denies Christ he will deny us before his father in heaven.  The bible clearly tells us not to get tattoos.

See all you are doing is demonizing what I said because I don't have experience in religious persecution.  You are coming at me from an angle of "like you know what its like".   No I don't know what it's like.  OK.  All I have is what the bible tells me, and all I see is people disobeying the commands of the bible in order to replace the chance of their denial of Christ under torture and death.... At which point, if they deny, I don't see what good a tattoo will do them anyway.

So ultimately, you have no point - other than to negate the fact I've never been persecuted (under torture/death) for religious reasons.   

I will tell you, even if I was, I would never believe a tattoo would save me if I denied God.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Theophania on November 24, 2014, 01:50:06 PM
So who wants to pay for the laser surgery to remove the two dainty tattoos I got (both with religious themes) before I became Orthodox?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 24, 2014, 01:55:49 PM
So is the consensus of the forum the following -


"God told us not to get tattoos."
"We don't have to listen to God."
"It doesn't matter if its in the bible."
"Tattoos are okay."
?

This isn't the EO church I remember.
I this is more like this:

"Yesh thinks God told us not to get tattoos."
"We don't have to listen to Yesh"
"It isn't actually in the Bible"
"I am more interested in my own self than what someone else puts on their body."

I'm curious why you say it is not in the bible. ?  I cited the scripture.
Ok, to clarify, there is a reference to it under the Law given to the Jews, which as St. Peter and the Council in Jerusalem determined, doesn't apply to us. Unless, of course, you want to condemn people for trimming their beards as well like says in the verse before.

Quote
Lev 19:27; "You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard. "

Or a bit earlier in the chapter where it condemns interbreeding cattle, sowing two kinds of seed in the field and mixing fabrics.

Quote
Lev 19:19; "You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together."

Are you arguing with me or God?

The law to the Jews has a lot of intertwining with Christianity, more than you think, and more than what your church says.

Otherwise 1 John 3:4 would not apply and you could not sin.
"Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

Paul's writings are difficult to understand - even to Peter.
2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

And just by the way, the council of Jerusalem - every time the word "law" was written, it didn't always mean the law of the Jews.

No, I am not saying we are under the law of the Jews, I am saying that there is a gray area.

You follow the 10 commandments right?  Yep, that's law.

The letters of Paul left a gray area, such as saying "to those who think something is unclean, it is unclean to them".   (but otherwise all things CAN be clean).   Do you eat dog?  Didn't think so..... It left room to spread Jesus Christ through the nations.  In Vietnam, people eat dog.  They don't see it as dirty of gross.  It's clean to them.  Unclean to most of us....  Same with circumcision.  The words clearly spell out this gray area.

Clearly in the New Testament, it talks about your body being the temple of the Holy Spirit.  This means it was designed by God exactly the way he wanted it.   To go modify it with a tattoo (of your choice of course) doesn't seem to go with the flow of the New or Old Testament.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: hecma925 on November 24, 2014, 01:56:17 PM
My computer mouse has a laser.  You can pay me 100 bucks for it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: TheTrisagion on November 24, 2014, 02:04:25 PM
So is the consensus of the forum the following -


"God told us not to get tattoos."
"We don't have to listen to God."
"It doesn't matter if its in the bible."
"Tattoos are okay."
?

This isn't the EO church I remember.
I this is more like this:

"Yesh thinks God told us not to get tattoos."
"We don't have to listen to Yesh"
"It isn't actually in the Bible"
"I am more interested in my own self than what someone else puts on their body."

I'm curious why you say it is not in the bible. ?  I cited the scripture.
Ok, to clarify, there is a reference to it under the Law given to the Jews, which as St. Peter and the Council in Jerusalem determined, doesn't apply to us. Unless, of course, you want to condemn people for trimming their beards as well like says in the verse before.

Quote
Lev 19:27; "You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard. "

Or a bit earlier in the chapter where it condemns interbreeding cattle, sowing two kinds of seed in the field and mixing fabrics.

Quote
Lev 19:19; "You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together."

Are you arguing with me or God?

The law to the Jews has a lot of intertwining with Christianity, more than you think, and more than what your church says.

Otherwise 1 John 3:4 would not apply and you could not sin.
"Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

Paul's writings are difficult to understand - even to Peter.
2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

And just by the way, the council of Jerusalem - every time the word "law" was written, it didn't always mean the law of the Jews.

No, I am not saying we are under the law of the Jews, I am saying that there is a gray area.

You follow the 10 commandments right?  Yep, that's law.

The letters of Paul left a gray area, such as saying "to those who think something is unclean, it is unclean to them".   (but otherwise all things CAN be clean).   Do you eat dog?  Didn't think so..... It left room to spread Jesus Christ through the nations.  In Vietnam, people eat dog.  They don't see it as dirty of gross.  It's clean to them.  Unclean to most of us....  Same with circumcision.  The words clearly spell out this gray area.

Clearly in the New Testament, it talks about your body being the temple of the Holy Spirit.  This means it was designed by God exactly the way he wanted it.   To go modify it with a tattoo (of your choice of course) doesn't seem to go with the flow of the New or Old Testament.
I'm not arguing with anyone. I'm pointing out your fallacious ideas and God hasn't brought the topic up to me, so no argument there. Since our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, have you deformed it by trimming your beard? And further, if there is a gray area, then why are you condemning brothers and sisters in Christ who have tattoos over something that is a gray area? Shouldn't you be more concerned about looking into the gray area of whether the cattle on your farm has been interbred? That has far more direct implications to you than someone elses tattoos.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 24, 2014, 02:13:23 PM
(http://www.easterngiftshop.com/media/ecom/prodlg/Constantine.jpg)

Quote
Having seen the figure of the Cross in the heavens, and like Paul not having received his call from men, O Lord, Your apostle among rulers, the Emperor Constantine, has been set by Your hand as ruler over the Imperial City that he preserved in peace for many years, through the prayers of the Theotokos, O only lover of mankind.

Source (http://oca.org/saints/troparia/2014/05/21/101452-equal-of-the-apostles-and-emperor-constantine-with-his-mother-he)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Theophania on November 24, 2014, 02:24:37 PM
Do you follow the OT law to the letter, Yesh? And I mean everything.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: biro on November 24, 2014, 02:33:06 PM
They should never be forced to convert to Islam, as they should not convert.  I know its easy to say, but a tattoo would not "keep them Christian".  Their confession of faith be in pain or death would do this.

And you're speaking from all of your first-hand experience as a Christian minority in an Islamic country where you fear that your children could be kidnapped, forcibly converted, and raised Muslim in a Muslim family at any time? If only they had you as their example, they wouldn't even need that Jesus guy.

No, you are speaking from an angle of attack.  The Jesus clearly tells us that whoever denies Christ he will deny us before his father in heaven.  The bible clearly tells us not to get tattoos.

See all you are doing is demonizing what I said because I don't have experience in religious persecution.  You are coming at me from an angle of "like you know what its like".   No I don't know what it's like.  OK.  All I have is what the bible tells me, and all I see is people disobeying the commands of the bible in order to replace the chance of their denial of Christ under torture and death.... At which point, if they deny, I don't see what good a tattoo will do them anyway.

So ultimately, you have no point - other than to negate the fact I've never been persecuted (under torture/death) for religious reasons.   

I will tell you, even if I was, I would never believe a tattoo would save me if I denied God.

A new commandment I give to you: that you love one another, as I have loved you. (Jn. 13:34)

Knowing that man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ; we also believe in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Galatians 2:16)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: biro on November 24, 2014, 02:36:05 PM
So is the consensus of the forum the following -


"God told us not to get tattoos."
"We don't have to listen to God."
"It doesn't matter if its in the bible."
"Tattoos are okay."
?

This isn't the EO church I remember.
I this is more like this:

"Yesh thinks God told us not to get tattoos."
"We don't have to listen to Yesh"
"It isn't actually in the Bible"
"I am more interested in my own self than what someone else puts on their body."

I'm curious why you say it is not in the bible. ?  I cited the scripture.
Ok, to clarify, there is a reference to it under the Law given to the Jews, which as St. Peter and the Council in Jerusalem determined, doesn't apply to us. Unless, of course, you want to condemn people for trimming their beards as well like says in the verse before.

Quote
Lev 19:27; "You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard. "

Or a bit earlier in the chapter where it condemns interbreeding cattle, sowing two kinds of seed in the field and mixing fabrics.

Quote
Lev 19:19; "You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together."

Are you arguing with me or God?

The law to the Jews has a lot of intertwining with Christianity, more than you think, and more than what your church says.

Otherwise 1 John 3:4 would not apply and you could not sin.
"Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

Paul's writings are difficult to understand - even to Peter.
2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

And just by the way, the council of Jerusalem - every time the word "law" was written, it didn't always mean the law of the Jews.

No, I am not saying we are under the law of the Jews, I am saying that there is a gray area.

You follow the 10 commandments right?  Yep, that's law.

The letters of Paul left a gray area, such as saying "to those who think something is unclean, it is unclean to them".   (but otherwise all things CAN be clean).   Do you eat dog?  Didn't think so..... It left room to spread Jesus Christ through the nations.  In Vietnam, people eat dog.  They don't see it as dirty of gross.  It's clean to them.  Unclean to most of us....  Same with circumcision.  The words clearly spell out this gray area.

Clearly in the New Testament, it talks about your body being the temple of the Holy Spirit.  This means it was designed by God exactly the way he wanted it.   To go modify it with a tattoo (of your choice of course) doesn't seem to go with the flow of the New or Old Testament.

What does eating dog in Vietnam have to do with anything?  ???
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: hecma925 on November 24, 2014, 02:38:38 PM
What if it's a really modest tattoo?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: TheTrisagion on November 24, 2014, 02:40:47 PM
What if it's a really modest tattoo?
Then you only modestly burn in hell.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: hecma925 on November 24, 2014, 02:41:48 PM
What if it's a really modest tattoo?
Then you only modestly burn in hell.

Ok, good.  I'm getting a little flower on my middle finger.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Theophania on November 24, 2014, 02:42:01 PM
What if it's a really modest tattoo?

The tattoo on my shoulder is a flower which can represent the Virgin Mary (which is why I chose it). I'm sure Yesh can find several issues with THAT tattoo.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: hecma925 on November 24, 2014, 02:43:56 PM
What if it's a really modest tattoo?

The tattoo on my shoulder is a flower which can represent the Virgin Mary (which is why I chose it). I'm sure Yesh can find several issues with THAT tattoo.
Stop worshiping Mary.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 24, 2014, 02:44:14 PM
What if it's a really modest tattoo?

The tattoo on my shoulder is a flower which can represent the Virgin Mary (which is why I chose it). I'm sure Yesh can find several issues with THAT tattoo.

Shoulder flesh.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: biro on November 24, 2014, 02:45:26 PM
Half a lifetime ago, I got a tattoo on my stomach. Guess I have to go for removal now. Ouch. You can't even see it 'cause I wear shirts. Oops though.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: TheTrisagion on November 24, 2014, 02:46:24 PM
What if it's a really modest tattoo?
Then you only modestly burn in hell.

Ok, good.  I'm getting a little flower on my middle finger.
"If your finger offend thee, cut it off for it it better to enter into heaven with 9 fingers than to be cast into hell because of a flower tattoo on your middle finger."

Wait, if I cut off a finger because of a tattoo, is that considered additional mutilation of the body or an attempt to rid the body of mutiliation?  Perhaps Yesh has a Bible verse on that.  ;)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Theophania on November 24, 2014, 02:47:15 PM
What if it's a really modest tattoo?

The tattoo on my shoulder is a flower which can represent the Virgin Mary (which is why I chose it). I'm sure Yesh can find several issues with THAT tattoo.
Stop worshiping Mary.

Sorry, I can't hear you, I'm busy baking her some raisin cakes.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: hecma925 on November 24, 2014, 02:48:16 PM
What if it's a really modest tattoo?

The tattoo on my shoulder is a flower which can represent the Virgin Mary (which is why I chose it). I'm sure Yesh can find several issues with THAT tattoo.
Stop worshiping Mary.

Sorry, I can't hear you, I'm busy baking her some raisin cakes.
May her face appear on all the cakes.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: TheTrisagion on November 24, 2014, 02:48:20 PM
What if it's a really modest tattoo?

The tattoo on my shoulder is a flower which can represent the Virgin Mary (which is why I chose it). I'm sure Yesh can find several issues with THAT tattoo.
Stop worshiping Mary.

Sorry, I can't hear you, I'm busy baking her some raisin cakes.
Aren't you still hacking up a lung from your never-ending illness?  I don't think Mary wants your virus infested raisin cakes.  >:(
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Theophania on November 24, 2014, 02:49:21 PM
What if it's a really modest tattoo?

The tattoo on my shoulder is a flower which can represent the Virgin Mary (which is why I chose it). I'm sure Yesh can find several issues with THAT tattoo.
Stop worshiping Mary.

Sorry, I can't hear you, I'm busy baking her some raisin cakes.
Aren't you still hacking up a lung from your never-ending illness?  I don't think Mary wants your virus infested raisin cakes.  >:(

HEY HEY HEY. The whole forum doesn't need to know I'm dying of consumption.  >:(
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on November 24, 2014, 02:50:30 PM
What if it's a really modest tattoo?
Then you only modestly burn in hell.

Ok, good.  I'm getting a little flower on my middle finger.
"If your finger offend thee, cut it off for it it better to enter into heaven with 9 fingers than to be cast into hell because of a flower tattoo on your middle finger."

Wait, if I cut off a finger because of a tattoo, is that considered additional mutilation of the body or an attempt to rid the body of mutiliation?  Perhaps Yesh has a Bible verse on that.  ;)


You get someone else to cut it off......they are carrying out God's will....
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: hecma925 on November 24, 2014, 02:53:44 PM
What if it's a really modest tattoo?

The tattoo on my shoulder is a flower which can represent the Virgin Mary (which is why I chose it). I'm sure Yesh can find several issues with THAT tattoo.
Stop worshiping Mary.

Sorry, I can't hear you, I'm busy baking her some raisin cakes.
Aren't you still hacking up a lung from your never-ending illness?  I don't think Mary wants your virus infested raisin cakes.  >:(

HEY HEY HEY. The whole forum doesn't need to know I'm dying of consumption.  >:(
Some Laudanum might help.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Nephi on November 24, 2014, 04:09:32 PM
They should never be forced to convert to Islam, as they should not convert.  I know its easy to say, but a tattoo would not "keep them Christian".  Their confession of faith be in pain or death would do this.

And you're speaking from all of your first-hand experience as a Christian minority in an Islamic country where you fear that your children could be kidnapped, forcibly converted, and raised Muslim in a Muslim family at any time? If only they had you as their example, they wouldn't even need that Jesus guy.

No, you are speaking from an angle of attack.  The Jesus clearly tells us that whoever denies Christ he will deny us before his father in heaven.  The bible clearly tells us not to get tattoos.

See all you are doing is demonizing what I said because I don't have experience in religious persecution.  You are coming at me from an angle of "like you know what its like".   No I don't know what it's like.  OK.  All I have is what the bible tells me, and all I see is people disobeying the commands of the bible in order to replace the chance of their denial of Christ under torture and death.... At which point, if they deny, I don't see what good a tattoo will do them anyway.

So ultimately, you have no point - other than to negate the fact I've never been persecuted (under torture/death) for religious reasons.   

I will tell you, even if I was, I would never believe a tattoo would save me if I denied God.

All praise and glory be to YIM, who rightly divides the word of truth and exemplifies it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: sakura95 on November 24, 2014, 06:32:37 PM
Paul's writings are difficult to understand - even to Peter.
2 Peter 3:16
The letters of Paul left a gray area, such as saying "to those who think something is unclean, it is unclean to them".   (but otherwise all things CAN be clean).   Do you eat dog?  Didn't think so..... It left room to spread Jesus Christ through the nations.  In Vietnam, people eat dog.  They don't see it as dirty of gross.  It's clean to them.  Unclean to most of us....  Same with circumcision.  The words clearly spell out this gray area.

Clearly in the New Testament, it talks about your body being the temple of the Holy Spirit.  This means it was designed by God exactly the way he wanted it. To go modify it with a tattoo (of your choice of course) doesn't seem to go with the flow of the New or Old Testament.

I am not Vietnamese but as someone from the same region as Vietnam, I can confirm that they do indeed consume Dog meat. Same as in China and if I'm not mistaken, Korea. But there's more unclean stuff than dog meat that is consumed in the Asian Continent such as the penises of various animals(I'm not making this up, I nearly ate one during a trip to China until my mom told me what it was), pig blood(It has the consistency of pudding and is chocolate in color), various insects( I consumed some of these delicacies on some occasions such as bee larvae in Taiwan and the larvae of some beetle from where I came from), shellfish(Prawns, crabs, jellyfish and anything from the sea without scales), turtles, frogs, snakes....etc

Odd that you have to pick the humble dog meat of all the other odd and "unclean" stuff that inhabitants of the Asian continent consume. I mean why not ask whether we eat the penis of some animal or coagulated wobbly pig blood. Dog meat is simply too ordinary to be mentioned.

Just to be clear I never consumed dog meat throughout my entire life. I can't say the same for the various non scaled creatures of the sea, pig's blood, turtles, frogs, insects...etc though.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: biro on November 24, 2014, 06:47:49 PM
If "You shall not make a mark upon your body" means no tattoos, how does Yesh explain circumcision?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 12:19:25 AM
So is the consensus of the forum the following -


"God told us not to get tattoos."
"We don't have to listen to God."
"It doesn't matter if its in the bible."
"Tattoos are okay."
?

This isn't the EO church I remember.
I this is more like this:

"Yesh thinks God told us not to get tattoos."
"We don't have to listen to Yesh"
"It isn't actually in the Bible"
"I am more interested in my own self than what someone else puts on their body."

I'm curious why you say it is not in the bible. ?  I cited the scripture.
Ok, to clarify, there is a reference to it under the Law given to the Jews, which as St. Peter and the Council in Jerusalem determined, doesn't apply to us. Unless, of course, you want to condemn people for trimming their beards as well like says in the verse before.

Quote
Lev 19:27; "You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard. "

Or a bit earlier in the chapter where it condemns interbreeding cattle, sowing two kinds of seed in the field and mixing fabrics.

Quote
Lev 19:19; "You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together."

Are you arguing with me or God?

The law to the Jews has a lot of intertwining with Christianity, more than you think, and more than what your church says.

Otherwise 1 John 3:4 would not apply and you could not sin.
"Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

Paul's writings are difficult to understand - even to Peter.
2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

And just by the way, the council of Jerusalem - every time the word "law" was written, it didn't always mean the law of the Jews.

No, I am not saying we are under the law of the Jews, I am saying that there is a gray area.

You follow the 10 commandments right?  Yep, that's law.

The letters of Paul left a gray area, such as saying "to those who think something is unclean, it is unclean to them".   (but otherwise all things CAN be clean).   Do you eat dog?  Didn't think so..... It left room to spread Jesus Christ through the nations.  In Vietnam, people eat dog.  They don't see it as dirty of gross.  It's clean to them.  Unclean to most of us....  Same with circumcision.  The words clearly spell out this gray area.

Clearly in the New Testament, it talks about your body being the temple of the Holy Spirit.  This means it was designed by God exactly the way he wanted it.   To go modify it with a tattoo (of your choice of course) doesn't seem to go with the flow of the New or Old Testament.
I'm not arguing with anyone. I'm pointing out your fallacious ideas and God hasn't brought the topic up to me, so no argument there. Since our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, have you deformed it by trimming your beard? And further, if there is a gray area, then why are you condemning brothers and sisters in Christ who have tattoos over something that is a gray area? Shouldn't you be more concerned about looking into the gray area of whether the cattle on your farm has been interbred? That has far more direct implications to you than someone elses tattoos.

Great example.  YES we watch for animals to not inbreed.  It weakens them, often creates genetic funkiness, and causes problems.  It's considered a no-no, and you can't register inbred animals.   While it is not the "law", it's good not to do it.  The benefits of following the law in this matter is great.   We can see a full reasoning behind this.   

A body, being the temple, we should see it the same way.  This doesn't compare with a beard - they grow back.  Tats are rather permanent (unless you are a more or less wealthier person who can have them removed).
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 12:36:03 AM
They should never be forced to convert to Islam, as they should not convert.  I know its easy to say, but a tattoo would not "keep them Christian".  Their confession of faith be in pain or death would do this.

And you're speaking from all of your first-hand experience as a Christian minority in an Islamic country where you fear that your children could be kidnapped, forcibly converted, and raised Muslim in a Muslim family at any time? If only they had you as their example, they wouldn't even need that Jesus guy.

No, you are speaking from an angle of attack.  The Jesus clearly tells us that whoever denies Christ he will deny us before his father in heaven.  The bible clearly tells us not to get tattoos.

See all you are doing is demonizing what I said because I don't have experience in religious persecution.  You are coming at me from an angle of "like you know what its like".   No I don't know what it's like.  OK.  All I have is what the bible tells me, and all I see is people disobeying the commands of the bible in order to replace the chance of their denial of Christ under torture and death.... At which point, if they deny, I don't see what good a tattoo will do them anyway.

So ultimately, you have no point - other than to negate the fact I've never been persecuted (under torture/death) for religious reasons.   

I will tell you, even if I was, I would never believe a tattoo would save me if I denied God.

A new commandment I give to you: that you love one another, as I have loved you. (Jn. 13:34)

Knowing that man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ; we also believe in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Galatians 2:16)

As I said, it is a gray area, not black or white.

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Romans 7:12
So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

Romans 7:14
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

Romans 7:16
And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

***Remember not always when Paul speaks of "law" does he refer to the law of the OT (Torah).   Such as in Romans 7:25 So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.

Paul is difficult to understand.  While I agree that the law is not necessary for salvation, it's a good idea to follow the law.  Do you really think God wants tattoos on your body? Think about it.

For me the law is a gray area.  Clearly many New Testament situations involved the law (Torah).  It seems more flexible though, so all gentiles could be brought to God.   Circumcision was not banned for instance, neither was people finding certain foods unclean.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 12:38:47 AM
What if it's a really modest tattoo?

The tattoo on my shoulder is a flower which can represent the Virgin Mary (which is why I chose it). I'm sure Yesh can find several issues with THAT tattoo.

Shoulder flesh.

Monastics appreciate shoulder flesh.  Haha, you won't ever recognize that.  Just with me.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 25, 2014, 12:40:20 AM
Circumcision was not banned for instance, neither was people finding certain foods unclean.

Quote
Acts 10

9 The next day, as they were on their journey and coming near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. 10 And he became hungry and desired something to eat; but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance 11 and saw the heaven opened, and something descending, like a great sheet, let down by four corners upon the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” 14 But Peter said, “No, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” 15 And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has cleansed, you must not call common.” 16 This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 12:42:27 AM
What if it's a really modest tattoo?
Then you only modestly burn in hell.

Ok, good.  I'm getting a little flower on my middle finger.
"If your finger offend thee, cut it off for it it better to enter into heaven with 9 fingers than to be cast into hell because of a flower tattoo on your middle finger."

Wait, if I cut off a finger because of a tattoo, is that considered additional mutilation of the body or an attempt to rid the body of mutiliation?  Perhaps Yesh has a Bible verse on that.  ;)

Is it causing you to sin?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 12:46:52 AM
Circumcision was not banned for instance, neither was people finding certain foods unclean.

Quote
Acts 10

9 The next day, as they were on their journey and coming near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. 10 And he became hungry and desired something to eat; but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance 11 and saw the heaven opened, and something descending, like a great sheet, let down by four corners upon the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” 14 But Peter said, “No, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” 15 And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has cleansed, you must not call common.” 16 This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven.
Mor keep reading your bible!  Keep reading after those verses and it will tell you what the dream was about!  It wasn't about clean foods.

Now the gray area -

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

I find dog unclean and I won't eat it.  As well as I find pork unclean and equally gross.  It's unclean to me.  
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 25, 2014, 12:50:17 AM
Circumcision was not banned for instance, neither was people finding certain foods unclean.

Quote
Acts 10

9 The next day, as they were on their journey and coming near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. 10 And he became hungry and desired something to eat; but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance 11 and saw the heaven opened, and something descending, like a great sheet, let down by four corners upon the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” 14 But Peter said, “No, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” 15 And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has cleansed, you must not call common.” 16 This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven.
Mor keep reading your bible!  Keep reading after those verses and it will tell you what the dream was about!  It wasn't about clean foods.


But it's the plain words of God.  "What God has cleansed, you must not call common."  He said it three times.  How much clearer could he be?  Why should I believe your tradition of interpretation when God's word is so clear?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 12:52:12 AM
Paul's writings are difficult to understand - even to Peter.
2 Peter 3:16
The letters of Paul left a gray area, such as saying "to those who think something is unclean, it is unclean to them".   (but otherwise all things CAN be clean).   Do you eat dog?  Didn't think so..... It left room to spread Jesus Christ through the nations.  In Vietnam, people eat dog.  They don't see it as dirty of gross.  It's clean to them.  Unclean to most of us....  Same with circumcision.  The words clearly spell out this gray area.

Clearly in the New Testament, it talks about your body being the temple of the Holy Spirit.  This means it was designed by God exactly the way he wanted it. To go modify it with a tattoo (of your choice of course) doesn't seem to go with the flow of the New or Old Testament.

I am not Vietnamese but as someone from the same region as Vietnam, I can confirm that they do indeed consume Dog meat. Same as in China and if I'm not mistaken, Korea. But there's more unclean stuff than dog meat that is consumed in the Asian Continent such as the penises of various animals(I'm not making this up, I nearly ate one during a trip to China until my mom told me what it was), pig blood(It has the consistency of pudding and is chocolate in color), various insects( I consumed some of these delicacies on some occasions such as bee larvae in Taiwan and the larvae of some beetle from where I came from), shellfish(Prawns, crabs, jellyfish and anything from the sea without scales), turtles, frogs, snakes....etc

Odd that you have to pick the humble dog meat of all the other odd and "unclean" stuff that inhabitants of the Asian continent consume. I mean why not ask whether we eat the penis of some animal or coagulated wobbly pig blood. Dog meat is simply too ordinary to be mentioned.

Just to be clear I never consumed dog meat throughout my entire life. I can't say the same for the various non scaled creatures of the sea, pig's blood, turtles, frogs, insects...etc though.

If you really want to know the answer, I picked it because most Americans would find dog meat a immoral/gross/nasty/disgusting/ or "not right" thing to do.  This is because most Americans would find such a thing as "unclean" but they would not always say "unclean".

Also if I brought up penises, somebody would just say hot dogs, which have plenty of pork penises and snouts.  So does bologna.  Many here would just think "meh".   So to make the point, I had to mention an animal that most English speakers would be able to see.   Most would think eating a dog is just simply not right.

Yes you are right, there are worse things than dog.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 12:55:43 AM
Circumcision was not banned for instance, neither was people finding certain foods unclean.

Quote
Acts 10

9 The next day, as they were on their journey and coming near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. 10 And he became hungry and desired something to eat; but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance 11 and saw the heaven opened, and something descending, like a great sheet, let down by four corners upon the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” 14 But Peter said, “No, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” 15 And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has cleansed, you must not call common.” 16 This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven.
Mor keep reading your bible!  Keep reading after those verses and it will tell you what the dream was about!  It wasn't about clean foods.


But it's the plain words of God.  "What God has cleansed, you must not call common."  He said it three times.  How much clearer could he be?  Why should I believe your tradition of interpretation when God's word is so clear?

It's not my tradition.  I don't know what you are talking about.  As I said keep reading.

Acts 10:16  This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,

18 And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.

19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.

20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.

21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?

22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.

23 Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.

24 And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and he had called together his kinsmen and near friends.

25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.

26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

27 And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.

28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.


***See I just don't understand why people use this scripture to say "all foods are clean".  There are better ones.  This scripture didn't have to do with food at all.  The vision was symbolic.

There are other scriptures that talk about foods being clean, but they can also be unclean if deemed unclean.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: biro on November 25, 2014, 12:59:32 AM
"Rise, Peter, kill and eat," is not symbolic.

Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 01:01:43 AM
To brush in what I just posted about clean/unclean foods with thread topic, God did clearly say in the law that we are not to get tattoos.  

We are released from the law while there are also some gray areas and things in the law that was brought into Christianity.  

If you consider a perm mark on your body, the temple, something that God made you without.... Unnatural... Consider what he said in the law - it probably is a good idea to follow something so simple...

Getting a tattoo isn't something you just happen across.  It's a direct and purposeful act and decision to put markings on the temple God designed you with (perm markings).
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 25, 2014, 01:03:35 AM
Circumcision was not banned for instance, neither was people finding certain foods unclean.

Quote
Acts 10

9 The next day, as they were on their journey and coming near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. 10 And he became hungry and desired something to eat; but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance 11 and saw the heaven opened, and something descending, like a great sheet, let down by four corners upon the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” 14 But Peter said, “No, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” 15 And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has cleansed, you must not call common.” 16 This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven.
Mor keep reading your bible!  Keep reading after those verses and it will tell you what the dream was about!  It wasn't about clean foods.


But it's the plain words of God.  "What God has cleansed, you must not call common."  He said it three times.  How much clearer could he be?  Why should I believe your tradition of interpretation when God's word is so clear?

It's not my tradition.  I don't know what you are talking about.  As I said keep reading.

Acts 10:16  This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,

18 And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.

19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.

20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.

21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?

22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.

23 Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.

24 And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and he had called together his kinsmen and near friends.

25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.

26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

27 And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.

28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.


***See I just don't understand why people use this scripture to say "all foods are clean".  There are better ones.  This scripture didn't have to do with food at all.  The vision was symbolic.

There are other scriptures that talk about foods being clean, but they can also be unclean if deemed unclean.

"What God has cleansed, you must not call common."  It doesn't get clearer than that. 

You're making up stuff.   
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 01:06:34 AM
"Rise, Peter, kill and eat," is not symbolic.



Biro please read it in context with the full scriptures above.

Peter had a vision and he was trying to figure out what it meant.  It's clearly written.   Verse  28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

The visitors came to him right after the vision, and God was showing him that the law of a Jew keeping company with one of another nation does not apply.  No man should be called common or unclean!

God was not talking about food, it was a symbolic vision.

There are other scriptures that talk about food being clean, but it was not Peter's vision (because Peter tried to figure out what it meant - later he stated plainly what it meant).  Those scriptures while clear, also indicate there are gray areas where things can remain unclean to people who see certain things as unclean.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 01:09:57 AM
Circumcision was not banned for instance, neither was people finding certain foods unclean.

Quote
Acts 10

9 The next day, as they were on their journey and coming near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. 10 And he became hungry and desired something to eat; but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance 11 and saw the heaven opened, and something descending, like a great sheet, let down by four corners upon the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” 14 But Peter said, “No, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” 15 And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has cleansed, you must not call common.” 16 This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven.
Mor keep reading your bible!  Keep reading after those verses and it will tell you what the dream was about!  It wasn't about clean foods.


But it's the plain words of God.  "What God has cleansed, you must not call common."  He said it three times.  How much clearer could he be?  Why should I believe your tradition of interpretation when God's word is so clear?

It's not my tradition.  I don't know what you are talking about.  As I said keep reading.

Acts 10:16  This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,

18 And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.

19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.

20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.

21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?

22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.

23 Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.

24 And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and he had called together his kinsmen and near friends.

25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.

26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

27 And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.

28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.


***See I just don't understand why people use this scripture to say "all foods are clean".  There are better ones.  This scripture didn't have to do with food at all.  The vision was symbolic.

There are other scriptures that talk about foods being clean, but they can also be unclean if deemed unclean.

"What God has cleansed, you must not call common."  It doesn't get clearer than that. 

You're making up stuff.   

Mor I really can't tell if you just trolling on me a bit or are serious.  Peter's dream was completely symbolic and in verse 28 he said that the dream meant he would not call any MAN unclean.  It's so clearly written.

It's Peter's words.

Unless you think God intended for Peter to eat the visitors.  :o
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: biro on November 25, 2014, 01:13:36 AM
I did read it in context. Don't tell me what I did.

It is not symbolic.

Nevertheless, Acts 15:24 ought to be enough for you. It probably won't be, but I guess I like to waste my time.

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 01:19:17 AM
I did read it in context. Don't tell me what I did.

It is not symbolic.

Nevertheless, Acts 15:24 ought to be enough for you. It probably won't be, but I guess I like to waste my time.

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

If it's not symbolic then why did Peter try to figure out what it meant?
Also why did Peter tell what God showed him in verse 28?

Biro, you are not being serious.  For real?  I'm sorry I just can't hear sarcasm over text.   It's right there in black and white.  Just read it!  It's symbolic totally!   

If not, what did the verse in Acts 10:28 mean and when did God show him this?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: biro on November 25, 2014, 01:25:48 AM
It is not symbolic.

The word 'symbolic' appears not once.

Also:

2 Peter 1:20

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/2-Peter-1-20/

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: TheTrisagion on November 25, 2014, 01:26:45 AM
So is the consensus of the forum the following -


"God told us not to get tattoos."
"We don't have to listen to God."
"It doesn't matter if its in the bible."
"Tattoos are okay."
?

This isn't the EO church I remember.
I this is more like this:

"Yesh thinks God told us not to get tattoos."
"We don't have to listen to Yesh"
"It isn't actually in the Bible"
"I am more interested in my own self than what someone else puts on their body."

I'm curious why you say it is not in the bible. ?  I cited the scripture.
Ok, to clarify, there is a reference to it under the Law given to the Jews, which as St. Peter and the Council in Jerusalem determined, doesn't apply to us. Unless, of course, you want to condemn people for trimming their beards as well like says in the verse before.

Quote
Lev 19:27; "You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard. "

Or a bit earlier in the chapter where it condemns interbreeding cattle, sowing two kinds of seed in the field and mixing fabrics.

Quote
Lev 19:19; "You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together."

Are you arguing with me or God?

The law to the Jews has a lot of intertwining with Christianity, more than you think, and more than what your church says.

Otherwise 1 John 3:4 would not apply and you could not sin.
"Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

Paul's writings are difficult to understand - even to Peter.
2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

And just by the way, the council of Jerusalem - every time the word "law" was written, it didn't always mean the law of the Jews.

No, I am not saying we are under the law of the Jews, I am saying that there is a gray area.

You follow the 10 commandments right?  Yep, that's law.

The letters of Paul left a gray area, such as saying "to those who think something is unclean, it is unclean to them".   (but otherwise all things CAN be clean).   Do you eat dog?  Didn't think so..... It left room to spread Jesus Christ through the nations.  In Vietnam, people eat dog.  They don't see it as dirty of gross.  It's clean to them.  Unclean to most of us....  Same with circumcision.  The words clearly spell out this gray area.

Clearly in the New Testament, it talks about your body being the temple of the Holy Spirit.  This means it was designed by God exactly the way he wanted it.   To go modify it with a tattoo (of your choice of course) doesn't seem to go with the flow of the New or Old Testament.
I'm not arguing with anyone. I'm pointing out your fallacious ideas and God hasn't brought the topic up to me, so no argument there. Since our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, have you deformed it by trimming your beard? And further, if there is a gray area, then why are you condemning brothers and sisters in Christ who have tattoos over something that is a gray area? Shouldn't you be more concerned about looking into the gray area of whether the cattle on your farm has been interbred? That has far more direct implications to you than someone elses tattoos.

Great example.  YES we watch for animals to not inbreed.  It weakens them, often creates genetic funkiness, and causes problems.  It's considered a no-no, and you can't register inbred animals.   While it is not the "law", it's good not to do it.  The benefits of following the law in this matter is great.   We can see a full reasoning behind this.   

A body, being the temple, we should see it the same way.  This doesn't compare with a beard - they grow back.  Tats are rather permanent (unless you are a more or less wealthier person who can have them removed).
I didn't say INBRED, I said INTERBRED. Interbred is when you have a bull that is one breed and a cow that is another breed. For example, Holstein cattle is an interbred breed where humans bred black and white cattle together in an attempt to maximize milk production.  The Jewish law forbids such acts. Any sort of artificial selection by using two different breeds is forbidden. You say this doesn't compare with a beard, but Scripture clearly says that it does. Who gives you the authority to say that since a beard grows back, the law can be ignored, but because tattoos are permanent, we have to follow that law? That seems to be a very selective manner of following the law.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 01:29:38 AM
I did read it in context. Don't tell me what I did.

It is not symbolic.

Nevertheless, Acts 15:24 ought to be enough for you. It probably won't be, but I guess I like to waste my time.

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Biro, okay look.  I don't know what you've been learning.  Just read Acts 15.

"Men from Judea" wanted circumcision.
Verse 5
But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

They were talking about GENTILES, not Jews.  Pharisees were trying to circumcise the Gentiles.

Acts 15:23-24

23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Do you see?

The torah mentions ***NOTHING*** about circumcising the gentiles at all.   Neither do the apostles.  The context of this chapter is about circumcision.

Gray areas exist on clean/unclean food.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: biro on November 25, 2014, 01:32:24 AM
I did read it in context. Don't tell me what I did.

It is not symbolic.

Nevertheless, Acts 15:24 ought to be enough for you. It probably won't be, but I guess I like to waste my time.

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Knew it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: TheTrisagion on November 25, 2014, 01:32:33 AM
I did read it in context. Don't tell me what I did.

It is not symbolic.

Nevertheless, Acts 15:24 ought to be enough for you. It probably won't be, but I guess I like to waste my time.

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

If it's not symbolic then why did Peter try to figure out what it meant?
Also why did Peter tell what God showed him in verse 28?

Biro, you are not being serious.  For real?  I'm sorry I just can't hear sarcasm over text.   It's right there in black and white.  Just read it!  It's symbolic totally!   

If not, what did the verse in Acts 10:28 mean and when did God show him this?

The vision shows to Peter that all things have been sanctified through Christ. Gentiles, food, everything. It has nothing to do with symbolism, everything is sanctified.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 01:33:48 AM
So is the consensus of the forum the following -


"God told us not to get tattoos."
"We don't have to listen to God."
"It doesn't matter if its in the bible."
"Tattoos are okay."
?

This isn't the EO church I remember.
I this is more like this:

"Yesh thinks God told us not to get tattoos."
"We don't have to listen to Yesh"
"It isn't actually in the Bible"
"I am more interested in my own self than what someone else puts on their body."

I'm curious why you say it is not in the bible. ?  I cited the scripture.
Ok, to clarify, there is a reference to it under the Law given to the Jews, which as St. Peter and the Council in Jerusalem determined, doesn't apply to us. Unless, of course, you want to condemn people for trimming their beards as well like says in the verse before.

Quote
Lev 19:27; "You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard. "

Or a bit earlier in the chapter where it condemns interbreeding cattle, sowing two kinds of seed in the field and mixing fabrics.

Quote
Lev 19:19; "You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together."

Are you arguing with me or God?

The law to the Jews has a lot of intertwining with Christianity, more than you think, and more than what your church says.

Otherwise 1 John 3:4 would not apply and you could not sin.
"Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

Paul's writings are difficult to understand - even to Peter.
2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

And just by the way, the council of Jerusalem - every time the word "law" was written, it didn't always mean the law of the Jews.

No, I am not saying we are under the law of the Jews, I am saying that there is a gray area.

You follow the 10 commandments right?  Yep, that's law.

The letters of Paul left a gray area, such as saying "to those who think something is unclean, it is unclean to them".   (but otherwise all things CAN be clean).   Do you eat dog?  Didn't think so..... It left room to spread Jesus Christ through the nations.  In Vietnam, people eat dog.  They don't see it as dirty of gross.  It's clean to them.  Unclean to most of us....  Same with circumcision.  The words clearly spell out this gray area.

Clearly in the New Testament, it talks about your body being the temple of the Holy Spirit.  This means it was designed by God exactly the way he wanted it.   To go modify it with a tattoo (of your choice of course) doesn't seem to go with the flow of the New or Old Testament.
I'm not arguing with anyone. I'm pointing out your fallacious ideas and God hasn't brought the topic up to me, so no argument there. Since our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, have you deformed it by trimming your beard? And further, if there is a gray area, then why are you condemning brothers and sisters in Christ who have tattoos over something that is a gray area? Shouldn't you be more concerned about looking into the gray area of whether the cattle on your farm has been interbred? That has far more direct implications to you than someone elses tattoos.

Great example.  YES we watch for animals to not inbreed.  It weakens them, often creates genetic funkiness, and causes problems.  It's considered a no-no, and you can't register inbred animals.   While it is not the "law", it's good not to do it.  The benefits of following the law in this matter is great.   We can see a full reasoning behind this.   

A body, being the temple, we should see it the same way.  This doesn't compare with a beard - they grow back.  Tats are rather permanent (unless you are a more or less wealthier person who can have them removed).
I didn't say INBRED, I said INTERBRED. Interbred is when you have a bull that is one breed and a cow that is another breed. For example, Holstein cattle is an interbred breed where humans bred black and white cattle together in an attempt to maximize milk production.  The Jewish law forbids such acts. Any sort of artificial selection by using two different breeds is forbidden. You say this doesn't compare with a beard, but Scripture clearly says that it does. Who gives you the authority to say that since a beard grows back, the law can be ignored, but because tattoos are permanent, we have to follow that law? That seems to be a very selective manner of following the law.

What are you talking about, I never said that we were under the law, just that there are gray areas of the law with clean/unclean food.

***Jewish (Talmud barely beginning *barely* in Hosea but written well after Christ) or Torah law***   See oral vs. Torah Jews would respect, but they didn't have Talmud nearly established in Christ's day.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 01:35:02 AM
I did read it in context. Don't tell me what I did.

It is not symbolic.

Nevertheless, Acts 15:24 ought to be enough for you. It probably won't be, but I guess I like to waste my time.

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

If it's not symbolic then why did Peter try to figure out what it meant?
Also why did Peter tell what God showed him in verse 28?

Biro, you are not being serious.  For real?  I'm sorry I just can't hear sarcasm over text.   It's right there in black and white.  Just read it!  It's symbolic totally!   

If not, what did the verse in Acts 10:28 mean and when did God show him this?

The vision shows to Peter that all things have been sanctified through Christ. Gentiles, food, everything. It has nothing to do with symbolism, everything is sanctified.

The problem is Peter tells you HIS dream and what it meant!  Simply read it plain and simple!  It has nothing to do with food.  I can't believe you guys think this!!
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: biro on November 25, 2014, 01:35:09 AM
Quote from: yeshuaisiam

Gray areas exist on clean/unclean food.

No, they do not.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: biro on November 25, 2014, 01:36:34 AM
We do not go by the Talmud.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 01:38:38 AM
I did read it in context. Don't tell me what I did.

It is not symbolic.

Nevertheless, Acts 15:24 ought to be enough for you. It probably won't be, but I guess I like to waste my time.

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Knew it.

So what wouldn't waste your time?  Would you like me to believe that Peter's dream was about clean/unclean food and ignore exactly what he said about it?

I mean this in a non-cruel way, but do you not care about the scriptures at all and what Peter said?  I mean you are simply just ignoring it and closing your heart to HIS words.

Ignore me as the person who brought this to your attention as we disagree on a lot.  Please just read his own words about the vision.  It's right there!
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: biro on November 25, 2014, 01:40:12 AM
"Rise, Peter, kill and eat" is not symbolic.

Scripture is not open to private interpretation.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: TheTrisagion on November 25, 2014, 01:43:37 AM
I did read it in context. Don't tell me what I did.

It is not symbolic.

Nevertheless, Acts 15:24 ought to be enough for you. It probably won't be, but I guess I like to waste my time.

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

If it's not symbolic then why did Peter try to figure out what it meant?
Also why did Peter tell what God showed him in verse 28?

Biro, you are not being serious.  For real?  I'm sorry I just can't hear sarcasm over text.   It's right there in black and white.  Just read it!  It's symbolic totally!  

If not, what did the verse in Acts 10:28 mean and when did God show him this?

The vision shows to Peter that all things have been sanctified through Christ. Gentiles, food, everything. It has nothing to do with symbolism, everything is sanctified.

The problem is Peter tells you HIS dream and what it meant!  Simply read it plain and simple!  It has nothing to do with food.  I can't believe you guys think this!!
The way you interpret things scare me. It is food. God says it is clean. It is not hard. Peter is wondering about the application of the dream. He is wondering why he received the dream. Once the men come, he recognizes why he received the dream when he did.  Are you seriously trying to deny the basic Christian teaching that Christ sanctified all things when He came? In what manner do you see a grey area here?  Where in the New Testament are people encouraged to continue to maintain the dietary laws? You are right that the dream was about people, but it was about more than that. It was about everything on earth. Otherwise, you fall into some weird gnostic belief of matter being bad.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 01:44:49 AM
Quote from: yeshuaisiam

Gray areas exist on clean/unclean food.

No, they do not.

Eyes closed, ears plugged.  "They don't because they don't" - "Even if they do, they still don't".

Unfortunately, the scriptures DO NOT teach this, but they teach that if certain things are unclean to a person, it is unclean to them.

Here it is - this is KJV.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

If you do not believe this then
1) You don't care
and/or
2) You ignore the scriptures

OR - you can please explain Romans 14:14 to me.

So if I determine dog to be an unclean animal to eat (which I do), I am not going to eat it.  If I give testimony of Jesus Christ to those who eat dog and find it perfectly acceptable, then I must accept and not cause offense.   It's simple stuff for the ministry of Christ.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on November 25, 2014, 01:46:54 AM
So basically your logic is

'I find it unacceptable and since there is a verse that says I do not have to like/do things if i find them PERSONALLY repugnant, that means I can apply that to all Christians, since clearly they should share my repugnance'


got it...
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: TheTrisagion on November 25, 2014, 01:46:59 AM
Quote from: yeshuaisiam

Gray areas exist on clean/unclean food.

No, they do not.

Eyes closed, ears plugged.  "They don't because they don't" - "Even if they do, they still don't".

Unfortunately, the scriptures DO NOT teach this, but they teach that if certain things are unclean to a person, it is unclean to them.

Here it is - this is KJV.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

If you do not believe this then
1) You don't care
and/or
2) You ignore the scriptures

OR - you can please explain Romans 14:14 to me.

So if I determine dog to be an unclean animal to eat (which I do), I am not going to eat it.  If I give testimony of Jesus Christ to those who eat dog and find it perfectly acceptable, then I must accept and not cause offense.   It's simple stuff for the ministry of Christ.

OR 3) Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: biro on November 25, 2014, 01:47:12 AM
Quote from: yeshuaisiam
*Jewish (Talmud barely beginning *barely* in Hosea but written well after Christ) or Torah law***   See oral vs. Torah Jews would respect, but they didn't have Talmud nearly established in Christ's day.

What the hell does this even mean?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 01:47:47 AM
I did read it in context. Don't tell me what I did.

It is not symbolic.

Nevertheless, Acts 15:24 ought to be enough for you. It probably won't be, but I guess I like to waste my time.

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

If it's not symbolic then why did Peter try to figure out what it meant?
Also why did Peter tell what God showed him in verse 28?

Biro, you are not being serious.  For real?  I'm sorry I just can't hear sarcasm over text.   It's right there in black and white.  Just read it!  It's symbolic totally!  

If not, what did the verse in Acts 10:28 mean and when did God show him this?

The vision shows to Peter that all things have been sanctified through Christ. Gentiles, food, everything. It has nothing to do with symbolism, everything is sanctified.

The problem is Peter tells you HIS dream and what it meant!  Simply read it plain and simple!  It has nothing to do with food.  I can't believe you guys think this!!
The way you interpret things scare me. It is food. God says it is clean. It is not hard. Peter is wondering about the application of the dream. He is wondering why he received the dream. Once the men come, he recognizes why he received the dream when he did.  Are you seriously trying to deny the basic Christian teaching that Christ sanctified all things when He came? In what manner do you see a grey area here?  Where in the New Testament are people encouraged to continue to maintain the dietary laws? You are right that the dream was about people, but it was about more than that. It was about everything on earth. Otherwise, you fall into some weird gnostic belief of matter being bad.

It was about PEOPLE.  Peter clearly said this.

I am not saying food isn't clean, I'm saying it is a New Testament teaching  AGAIN I quote:
Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

You are right, it was a release from us not abiding with everyone in the world as Christians.  It had nothing to do with food.  Food was *released* elsewhere, unless somebody finds something unclean.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 01:50:37 AM
Quote from: yeshuaisiam
*Jewish (Talmud barely beginning *barely* in Hosea but written well after Christ) or Torah law***   See oral vs. Torah Jews would respect, but they didn't have Talmud nearly established in Christ's day.

What the hell does this even mean?


It means that Jewish people today go off two sets of laws.
1. Torah law.
2. Oral law. 

Torah law is the first five books of the bible.
Oral law is the Talmud, which came about way after Jesus was here (but has hints in the book of Hosea of being established).

So in the persons example of interbreeding (which I over-read too fast as inbred), I asked if it was Torah law or Oral law.   At the time of Christ and shortly thereafter, Talmudic law was lesser "recognized".
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: biro on November 25, 2014, 01:51:32 AM
Why do you ignore the first half of that verse?

Where do you find the word 'symbolic' in the vision?

 ???

Again, we do not follow the Talmud.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 01:52:51 AM
Quote from: yeshuaisiam

Gray areas exist on clean/unclean food.

No, they do not.

Eyes closed, ears plugged.  "They don't because they don't" - "Even if they do, they still don't".

Unfortunately, the scriptures DO NOT teach this, but they teach that if certain things are unclean to a person, it is unclean to them.

Here it is - this is KJV.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

If you do not believe this then
1) You don't care
and/or
2) You ignore the scriptures

OR - you can please explain Romans 14:14 to me.

So if I determine dog to be an unclean animal to eat (which I do), I am not going to eat it.  If I give testimony of Jesus Christ to those who eat dog and find it perfectly acceptable, then I must accept and not cause offense.   It's simple stuff for the ministry of Christ.

OR 3) Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

YES!

Thank you!
Paul by his own admission said there is nothing unclean to him, and to him that esteemeth something to be unclean, to HIM it is unclean.

It's all I'm saying.  Right out of the bible!  
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: TheTrisagion on November 25, 2014, 01:54:07 AM
Quote from: yeshuaisiam
*Jewish (Talmud barely beginning *barely* in Hosea but written well after Christ) or Torah law***   See oral vs. Torah Jews would respect, but they didn't have Talmud nearly established in Christ's day.

What the hell does this even mean?


It means that Jewish people today go off two sets of laws.
1. Torah law.
2. Oral law. 

Torah law is the first five books of the bible.
Oral law is the Talmud, which came about way after Jesus was here (but has hints in the book of Hosea of being established).

So in the persons example of interbreeding (which I over-read too fast as inbred), I asked if it was Torah law or Oral law.   At the time of Christ and shortly thereafter, Talmudic law was lesser "recognized".
The prohibition on interbreeding is in the Torah. It is in the same chapter as the one that talks about not putting markings on ones body. If you hold one up as being obligatory on us, you should hold up the other one.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: TheTrisagion on November 25, 2014, 01:55:37 AM
Quote from: yeshuaisiam

Gray areas exist on clean/unclean food.

No, they do not.

Eyes closed, ears plugged.  "They don't because they don't" - "Even if they do, they still don't".

Unfortunately, the scriptures DO NOT teach this, but they teach that if certain things are unclean to a person, it is unclean to them.

Here it is - this is KJV.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

If you do not believe this then
1) You don't care
and/or
2) You ignore the scriptures

OR - you can please explain Romans 14:14 to me.

So if I determine dog to be an unclean animal to eat (which I do), I am not going to eat it.  If I give testimony of Jesus Christ to those who eat dog and find it perfectly acceptable, then I must accept and not cause offense.   It's simple stuff for the ministry of Christ.

OR 3) Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

YES!

Thank you!
Paul by his own admission said there is nothing unclean to him, and to him that esteemeth something to be unclean, to HIM it is unclean.

It's all I'm saying.  Right out of the bible!  
So really, this whole argument was a sly way of telling us that you personally find tattoos unclean and therefore you cannot get one, but there is nothing inherently unclean about them?  I find that interpretation of your beliefs hard to believe given your prior posts.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: biro on November 25, 2014, 01:57:11 AM
Quote from: yeshuaisiam

Gray areas exist on clean/unclean food.

No, they do not.

Eyes closed, ears plugged.  "They don't because they don't" - "Even if they do, they still don't".

Unfortunately, the scriptures DO NOT teach this, but they teach that if certain things are unclean to a person, it is unclean to them.

Here it is - this is KJV.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

If you do not believe this then
1) You don't care
and/or
2) You ignore the scriptures

OR - you can please explain Romans 14:14 to me.

So if I determine dog to be an unclean animal to eat (which I do), I am not going to eat it.  If I give testimony of Jesus Christ to those who eat dog and find it perfectly acceptable, then I must accept and not cause offense.   It's simple stuff for the ministry of Christ.

OR 3) Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

YES!

Thank you!
Paul by his own admission said there is nothing unclean to him, and to him that esteemeth something to be unclean, to HIM it is unclean.

It's all I'm saying.  Right out of the bible!  

(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c24/neon000/2014%20-%202015/57BECEF0-6598-4869-9F6C-9C7EE52AD1D2_zpszpi5rk0h.jpg) (http://s24.photobucket.com/user/neon000/media/2014%20-%202015/57BECEF0-6598-4869-9F6C-9C7EE52AD1D2_zpszpi5rk0h.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 02:01:01 AM
Why do you ignore the first half of that verse?

Where do you find the word 'symbolic' in the vision?

 ???

Again, we do not follow the Talmud.

I know we don't follow the Talmud.

Peter tried to determine what the dream meant.

(Consider other scriptures & dream interpretations in the bible)

Peter directly cited in verse 28 what the dream meant, and quoted what God told him of the animals to the men.

You have to understand Jewish law to understand this verse, but Peter even cites this and puts the dream into context.

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

**God hath shewed me**


Okay backing up:  Acts 10
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

Who came?

19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.

28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.




Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: biro on November 25, 2014, 02:03:53 AM
You're the one who referred to the Talmud. Which means nothing to us.

Do you enjoy being incoherent?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 02:05:54 AM
Quote from: yeshuaisiam
*Jewish (Talmud barely beginning *barely* in Hosea but written well after Christ) or Torah law***   See oral vs. Torah Jews would respect, but they didn't have Talmud nearly established in Christ's day.

What the hell does this even mean?


It means that Jewish people today go off two sets of laws.
1. Torah law.
2. Oral law. 

Torah law is the first five books of the bible.
Oral law is the Talmud, which came about way after Jesus was here (but has hints n the book of Hosea of being established).

So in the persons example of interbreeding (which I over-read too fast as inbred), I asked if it was Torah law or Oral law.   At the time of Christ and shortly thereafter, Talmudic law was lesser "recognized".
The prohibition on interbreeding is in the Torah. It is in the same chapter as the one that talks about not putting markings on ones body. If you hold one up as being obligatory on us, you should hold up the other one.

You do know I misread you originally.  For the record, I don't interbred my animals and am rid of cattle anyway.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 02:06:39 AM
You're the one who referred to the Talmud. Which means nothing to us.

Do you enjoy being incoherent?

What are you talking about?  I asked if he found that info in Torah or Talmud law.  He responded Torah.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: TheTrisagion on November 25, 2014, 02:08:48 AM
Quote
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
This is what God said. It is LITERALLY God's words.  The question you must ask yourself is, has God cleansed food? What matter has God not cleansed? When Christ came to reconcile the world to God, what physical matter was exempted from that cleansing?  When you can show me the physical matter that God has not cleansed, then I will consider further your personal interpretation on this passage.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: biro on November 25, 2014, 02:09:46 AM
You're the one who referred to the Talmud. Which means nothing to us.

Do you enjoy being incoherent?

What are you talking about?  I asked if he found that info in Torah or Talmud law.  He responded Torah.

You're not Jewish.

Again, it does not matter what it says in the Talmud.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: TheTrisagion on November 25, 2014, 02:10:01 AM
Quote from: yeshuaisiam
*Jewish (Talmud barely beginning *barely* in Hosea but written well after Christ) or Torah law***   See oral vs. Torah Jews would respect, but they didn't have Talmud nearly established in Christ's day.

What the hell does this even mean?


It means that Jewish people today go off two sets of laws.
1. Torah law.
2. Oral law. 

Torah law is the first five books of the bible.
Oral law is the Talmud, which came about way after Jesus was here (but has hints n the book of Hosea of being established).

So in the persons example of interbreeding (which I over-read too fast as inbred), I asked if it was Torah law or Oral law.   At the time of Christ and shortly thereafter, Talmudic law was lesser "recognized".
The prohibition on interbreeding is in the Torah. It is in the same chapter as the one that talks about not putting markings on ones body. If you hold one up as being obligatory on us, you should hold up the other one.

You do know I misread you originally.  For the record, I don't interbred my animals and am rid of cattle anyway.

And how about the beard trimming which is strictly prohibited in the verse before the markings verse?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 02:15:15 AM
Quote from: yeshuaisiam

Gray areas exist on clean/unclean food.

No, they do not.

Eyes closed, ears plugged.  "They don't because they don't" - "Even if they do, they still don't".

Unfortunately, the scriptures DO NOT teach this, but they teach that if certain things are unclean to a person, it is unclean to them.

Here it is - this is KJV.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

If you do not believe this then
1) You don't care
and/or
2) You ignore the scriptures

OR - you can please explain Romans 14:14 to me.

So if I determine dog to be an unclean animal to eat (which I do), I am not going to eat it.  If I give testimony of Jesus Christ to those who eat dog and find it perfectly acceptable, then I must accept and not cause offense.   It's simple stuff for the ministry of Christ.

OR 3) Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

YES!

Thank you!
Paul by his own admission said there is nothing unclean to him, and to him that esteemeth something to be unclean, to HIM it is unclean.

It's all I'm saying.  Right out of the bible!  
So really, this whole argument was a sly way of telling us that you personally find tattoos unclean and therefore you cannot get one, but there is nothing inherently unclean about them?  I find that interpretation of your beliefs hard to believe given your prior posts.

Not exactly.

The whole basis of my argument against tattoos is that a person has to go out of their way to get one.  You have to purposely set out, find a design, and get ink pierced into your skin.  There is *no* real reason to do this.  Food on the other hand, is something we must all have to live.  Tattoos are not.

Tattoos are purpose act that a person sets out to do, usually for no reason other than style.  If they offended God in the Old Testament and his people not to get a tattoo - and later refers to your body as the Holy temple, then it's probably NOT a good thing to do.

So once again, I have a plethora of links ready for you.

Oh yes, Eastern Orthodox / OO sources - but I'll start with this one.
http://www.stgeorgehermitage.org/tattoos.html (http://www.stgeorgehermitage.org/tattoos.html)

There is a HUGE problem on this forum.  Orthodox Christians generally don't know their own faith.

It's both ironic, awkward, and amusing at the same time to watch so many argue with me (just like in the famous modesty thread), just to have me then start quoting Orthodox sources and show you that MY position backs an Orthodox viewpoint.

So as the argument (hopefully does not continue), I'll just continue to cite Orthodox sources and let all of you fight me with your opinion and let me know how "unorthodox" I am.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 02:18:35 AM
Quote from: yeshuaisiam
*Jewish (Talmud barely beginning *barely* in Hosea but written well after Christ) or Torah law***   See oral vs. Torah Jews would respect, but they didn't have Talmud nearly established in Christ's day.

What the hell does this even mean?


It means that Jewish people today go off two sets of laws.
1. Torah law.
2. Oral law. 

Torah law is the first five books of the bible.
Oral law is the Talmud, which came about way after Jesus was here (but has hints n the book of Hosea of being established).

So in the persons example of interbreeding (which I over-read too fast as inbred), I asked if it was Torah law or Oral law.   At the time of Christ and shortly thereafter, Talmudic law was lesser "recognized".
The prohibition on interbreeding is in the Torah. It is in the same chapter as the one that talks about not putting markings on ones body. If you hold one up as being obligatory on us, you should hold up the other one.

You do know I misread you originally.  For the record, I don't interbred my animals and am rid of cattle anyway.

And how about the beard trimming which is strictly prohibited in the verse before the markings verse?

Know your religion.
http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/clergy_hair.aspx (http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/clergy_hair.aspx)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 02:24:07 AM
Quote
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
This is what God said. It is LITERALLY God's words.  The question you must ask yourself is, has God cleansed food? What matter has God not cleansed? When Christ came to reconcile the world to God, what physical matter was exempted from that cleansing?  When you can show me the physical matter that God has not cleansed, then I will consider further your personal interpretation on this passage.

Yep.  It was God's words in Peter's vision that Peter said to the THREE men who were uncommon/unclean.  God did clean!  It was being clean three times of the three men...

Verse 28
28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 02:24:52 AM
You're the one who referred to the Talmud. Which means nothing to us.

Do you enjoy being incoherent?

What are you talking about?  I asked if he found that info in Torah or Talmud law.  He responded Torah.

You're not Jewish.

Again, it does not matter what it says in the Talmud.

You are right, and again right.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: biro on November 25, 2014, 02:28:50 AM
Quote
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
This is what God said. It is LITERALLY God's words.  The question you must ask yourself is, has God cleansed food? What matter has God not cleansed? When Christ came to reconcile the world to God, what physical matter was exempted from that cleansing?  When you can show me the physical matter that God has not cleansed, then I will consider further your personal interpretation on this passage.

Yep.  It was God's words in Peter's vision that Peter said to the THREE men who were uncommon/unclean.  God did clean!  It was being clean three times of the three men...

Verse 28
28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c24/neon000/2014%20-%202015/553B9548-AF91-447E-BC9D-9E65F421D1EB_zpstc9z1zbh.jpg) (http://s24.photobucket.com/user/neon000/media/2014%20-%202015/553B9548-AF91-447E-BC9D-9E65F421D1EB_zpstc9z1zbh.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: SolEX01 on November 25, 2014, 02:33:50 AM
Awww, YiM and his spokesperson are having a public disagreement.  Boo hoo hoo....   ::)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: TheTrisagion on November 25, 2014, 09:31:09 AM
Awww, YiM and his spokesperson are having a public disagreement.  Boo hoo hoo....   ::)
:laugh: Is there a time that I ever agree with YiM?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: TheTrisagion on November 25, 2014, 09:33:25 AM
Quote from: yeshuaisiam
*Jewish (Talmud barely beginning *barely* in Hosea but written well after Christ) or Torah law***   See oral vs. Torah Jews would respect, but they didn't have Talmud nearly established in Christ's day.

What the hell does this even mean?


It means that Jewish people today go off two sets of laws.
1. Torah law.
2. Oral law. 

Torah law is the first five books of the bible.
Oral law is the Talmud, which came about way after Jesus was here (but has hints n the book of Hosea of being established).

So in the persons example of interbreeding (which I over-read too fast as inbred), I asked if it was Torah law or Oral law.   At the time of Christ and shortly thereafter, Talmudic law was lesser "recognized".
The prohibition on interbreeding is in the Torah. It is in the same chapter as the one that talks about not putting markings on ones body. If you hold one up as being obligatory on us, you should hold up the other one.

You do know I misread you originally.  For the record, I don't interbred my animals and am rid of cattle anyway.

And how about the beard trimming which is strictly prohibited in the verse before the markings verse?

Know your religion.
http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/clergy_hair.aspx (http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/clergy_hair.aspx)
We aren't discussing my religion, we are discussing your beliefs which seem to include condemning others for not following a verse in Leviticus when you yourself do not follow the verse directly before it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: TheTrisagion on November 25, 2014, 09:37:09 AM
Quote from: yeshuaisiam

Gray areas exist on clean/unclean food.

No, they do not.

Eyes closed, ears plugged.  "They don't because they don't" - "Even if they do, they still don't".

Unfortunately, the scriptures DO NOT teach this, but they teach that if certain things are unclean to a person, it is unclean to them.

Here it is - this is KJV.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

If you do not believe this then
1) You don't care
and/or
2) You ignore the scriptures

OR - you can please explain Romans 14:14 to me.

So if I determine dog to be an unclean animal to eat (which I do), I am not going to eat it.  If I give testimony of Jesus Christ to those who eat dog and find it perfectly acceptable, then I must accept and not cause offense.   It's simple stuff for the ministry of Christ.

OR 3) Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

YES!

Thank you!
Paul by his own admission said there is nothing unclean to him, and to him that esteemeth something to be unclean, to HIM it is unclean.

It's all I'm saying.  Right out of the bible!  
So really, this whole argument was a sly way of telling us that you personally find tattoos unclean and therefore you cannot get one, but there is nothing inherently unclean about them?  I find that interpretation of your beliefs hard to believe given your prior posts.

Not exactly.

The whole basis of my argument against tattoos is that a person has to go out of their way to get one.  You have to purposely set out, find a design, and get ink pierced into your skin.  There is *no* real reason to do this.  Food on the other hand, is something we must all have to live.  Tattoos are not.

Tattoos are purpose act that a person sets out to do, usually for no reason other than style.  If they offended God in the Old Testament and his people not to get a tattoo - and later refers to your body as the Holy temple, then it's probably NOT a good thing to do.

So once again, I have a plethora of links ready for you.

Oh yes, Eastern Orthodox / OO sources - but I'll start with this one.
http://www.stgeorgehermitage.org/tattoos.html (http://www.stgeorgehermitage.org/tattoos.html)

There is a HUGE problem on this forum.  Orthodox Christians generally don't know their own faith.

It's both ironic, awkward, and amusing at the same time to watch so many argue with me (just like in the famous modesty thread), just to have me then start quoting Orthodox sources and show you that MY position backs an Orthodox viewpoint.

So as the argument (hopefully does not continue), I'll just continue to cite Orthodox sources and let all of you fight me with your opinion and let me know how "unorthodox" I am.
One priest's opinion on tattoos does not equate to the Orthodox faith. That only takes place in belief systems such as yours where there is only one adherent. You can quote all the Orthodox sources you want, but it isn't until you start quoting sources that recommend you examining the sin in your own life rather than everyone elses life that I am going to give much credence to your arguments.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 11:57:15 AM
Awww, YiM and his spokesperson are having a public disagreement.  Boo hoo hoo....   ::)
:laugh: Is there a time that I ever agree with YiM?
I don't know, but you are not even agreeing with the scriptures. It's so obvious and clear.  I don't see why we are even arguing. ???
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: DeniseDenise on November 25, 2014, 11:59:38 AM
Awww, YiM and his spokesperson are having a public disagreement.  Boo hoo hoo....   ::)
:laugh: Is there a time that I ever agree with YiM?
I don't know, but you are not even agreeing with the scriptures. It's so obvious and clear.  I don't see why we are even arguing. ???


Than you could stop and leave people to their 'folly'......but you wouldn't have any fun then....would you?  :laugh:
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 12:01:10 PM
Quote from: yeshuaisiam

Gray areas exist on clean/unclean food.

No, they do not.

Eyes closed, ears plugged.  "They don't because they don't" - "Even if they do, they still don't".

Unfortunately, the scriptures DO NOT teach this, but they teach that if certain things are unclean to a person, it is unclean to them.

Here it is - this is KJV.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

If you do not believe this then
1) You don't care
and/or
2) You ignore the scriptures

OR - you can please explain Romans 14:14 to me.

So if I determine dog to be an unclean animal to eat (which I do), I am not going to eat it.  If I give testimony of Jesus Christ to those who eat dog and find it perfectly acceptable, then I must accept and not cause offense.   It's simple stuff for the ministry of Christ.

OR 3) Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

YES!

Thank you!
Paul by his own admission said there is nothing unclean to him, and to him that esteemeth something to be unclean, to HIM it is unclean.

It's all I'm saying.  Right out of the bible!  
So really, this whole argument was a sly way of telling us that you personally find tattoos unclean and therefore you cannot get one, but there is nothing inherently unclean about them?  I find that interpretation of your beliefs hard to believe given your prior posts.

Not exactly.

The whole basis of my argument against tattoos is that a person has to go out of their way to get one.  You have to purposely set out, find a design, and get ink pierced into your skin.  There is *no* real reason to do this.  Food on the other hand, is something we must all have to live.  Tattoos are not.

Tattoos are purpose act that a person sets out to do, usually for no reason other than style.  If they offended God in the Old Testament and his people not to get a tattoo - and later refers to your body as the Holy temple, then it's probably NOT a good thing to do.

So once again, I have a plethora of links ready for you.

Oh yes, Eastern Orthodox / OO sources - but I'll start with this one.
http://www.stgeorgehermitage.org/tattoos.html (http://www.stgeorgehermitage.org/tattoos.html)

There is a HUGE problem on this forum.  Orthodox Christians generally don't know their own faith.

It's both ironic, awkward, and amusing at the same time to watch so many argue with me (just like in the famous modesty thread), just to have me then start quoting Orthodox sources and show you that MY position backs an Orthodox viewpoint.

So as the argument (hopefully does not continue), I'll just continue to cite Orthodox sources and let all of you fight me with your opinion and let me know how "unorthodox" I am.
One priest's opinion on tattoos does not equate to the Orthodox faith. That only takes place in belief systems such as yours where there is only one adherent. You can quote all the Orthodox sources you want, but it isn't until you start quoting sources that recommend you examining the sin in your own life rather than everyone elses life that I am going to give much credence to your arguments.

LOL!!!!!!!!!

""Quote the scriptures, quote all the EO sources you want.  You are YiM, I am me, I am EO - so that makes you automatically wrong"".

Forget it.  Open mouth, insert 50 priest's feet and the bible.   Doesn't matter.   Out of your own fingers - You won't even listen to Eastern Orthodox sources.

If you won't listen to scripture and you won't listen to even those writing on this issue within your own religion then what's the point?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 12:05:54 PM
Awww, YiM and his spokesperson are having a public disagreement.  Boo hoo hoo....   ::)
:laugh: Is there a time that I ever agree with YiM?
I don't know, but you are not even agreeing with the scriptures. It's so obvious and clear.  I don't see why we are even arguing. ???


Than you could stop and leave people to their 'folly'......but you wouldn't have any fun then....would you?  :laugh:
You have a point!

It's just sad to see it happen.  I mean having a beef with SOME elements (usually involving additions) of the EO faith is one thing. (and generally gets me demonized)  But wow these folks don't even know their own religion.  It's like me arguing FOR the general consensus of the clergy of the EO church and they fight me for it!

It makes me wonder how they contest me on other issues yet don't even know their own church.  If I recall, not long ago "somebody" suggested that perhaps I wasn't properly catechized. 
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on November 25, 2014, 12:07:25 PM
Quote from: yeshuaisiam

Gray areas exist on clean/unclean food.

No, they do not.

Eyes closed, ears plugged.  "They don't because they don't" - "Even if they do, they still don't".

Unfortunately, the scriptures DO NOT teach this, but they teach that if certain things are unclean to a person, it is unclean to them.

Here it is - this is KJV.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

If you do not believe this then
1) You don't care
and/or
2) You ignore the scriptures

OR - you can please explain Romans 14:14 to me.

So if I determine dog to be an unclean animal to eat (which I do), I am not going to eat it.  If I give testimony of Jesus Christ to those who eat dog and find it perfectly acceptable, then I must accept and not cause offense.   It's simple stuff for the ministry of Christ.

OR 3) Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

YES!

Thank you!
Paul by his own admission said there is nothing unclean to him, and to him that esteemeth something to be unclean, to HIM it is unclean.

It's all I'm saying.  Right out of the bible!  
So really, this whole argument was a sly way of telling us that you personally find tattoos unclean and therefore you cannot get one, but there is nothing inherently unclean about them?  I find that interpretation of your beliefs hard to believe given your prior posts.

Not exactly.

The whole basis of my argument against tattoos is that a person has to go out of their way to get one.  You have to purposely set out, find a design, and get ink pierced into your skin.  There is *no* real reason to do this.  Food on the other hand, is something we must all have to live.  Tattoos are not.

Tattoos are purpose act that a person sets out to do, usually for no reason other than style.  If they offended God in the Old Testament and his people not to get a tattoo - and later refers to your body as the Holy temple, then it's probably NOT a good thing to do.

So once again, I have a plethora of links ready for you.

Oh yes, Eastern Orthodox / OO sources - but I'll start with this one.
http://www.stgeorgehermitage.org/tattoos.html (http://www.stgeorgehermitage.org/tattoos.html)

There is a HUGE problem on this forum.  Orthodox Christians generally don't know their own faith.

It's both ironic, awkward, and amusing at the same time to watch so many argue with me (just like in the famous modesty thread), just to have me then start quoting Orthodox sources and show you that MY position backs an Orthodox viewpoint.

So as the argument (hopefully does not continue), I'll just continue to cite Orthodox sources and let all of you fight me with your opinion and let me know how "unorthodox" I am.
One priest's opinion on tattoos does not equate to the Orthodox faith. That only takes place in belief systems such as yours where there is only one adherent. You can quote all the Orthodox sources you want, but it isn't until you start quoting sources that recommend you examining the sin in your own life rather than everyone elses life that I am going to give much credence to your arguments.

LOL!!!!!!!!!

""Quote the scriptures, quote all the EO sources you want.  You are YiM, I am me, I am EO - so that makes you automatically wrong"".

Forget it.  Open mouth, insert 50 priest's feet and the bible.   Doesn't matter.   Out of your own fingers - You won't even listen to Eastern Orthodox sources.

If you won't listen to scripture and you won't listen to even those writing on this issue within your own religion then what's the point?
The point you're missing is that you spend most of your time examining the lives of others but very little time examining your own life.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: TheTrisagion on November 25, 2014, 12:07:59 PM
You can repeat how this is the "clear teaching of Scripture" all you want, but that doesn't make it so.

And newsflash, The Orthodox Church does not have an official teaching on tattoos. Certainly people within the Church have opinions and are free to provide those opinions, but that doesn't mean it is a dogma of the Church.

I don't even have a tattoo and I don't intend on ever getting one, so the question is largely academic for me. The more disturbing thing though, is your insistence that everyone accept your interpretation of Scripture. You don't even allow for reasonable minds to disagree because in your mind, everyone that has a different opinion than you is automatically unreasonable. Pride is discussed far more often in Scripture than tattoos are, yet you have no problem pridefully pronouncing your opinions as inerrant decrees directly from God.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Theophania on November 25, 2014, 12:14:48 PM
Awww, YiM and his spokesperson are having a public disagreement.  Boo hoo hoo....   ::)
:laugh: Is there a time that I ever agree with YiM?
I don't know, but you are not even agreeing with the scriptures. It's so obvious and clear.  I don't see why we are even arguing. ???


Than you could stop and leave people to their 'folly'......but you wouldn't have any fun then....would you?  :laugh:
You have a point!

It's just sad to see it happen.  I mean having a beef with SOME elements (usually involving additions) of the EO faith is one thing. (and generally gets me demonized)  But wow these folks don't even know their own religion.  It's like me arguing FOR the general consensus of the clergy of the EO church and they fight me for it!

It makes me wonder how they contest me on other issues yet don't even know their own church.  If I recall, not long ago "somebody" suggested that perhaps I wasn't properly catechized. 


Stop, just stop.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 12:15:25 PM
Quote
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
This is what God said. It is LITERALLY God's words.  The question you must ask yourself is, has God cleansed food? What matter has God not cleansed? When Christ came to reconcile the world to God, what physical matter was exempted from that cleansing?  When you can show me the physical matter that God has not cleansed, then I will consider further your personal interpretation on this passage.

Yep.  It was God's words in Peter's vision that Peter said to the THREE men who were uncommon/unclean.  God did clean!  It was being clean three times of the three men...

Verse 28
28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c24/neon000/2014%20-%202015/553B9548-AF91-447E-BC9D-9E65F421D1EB_zpstc9z1zbh.jpg) (http://s24.photobucket.com/user/neon000/media/2014%20-%202015/553B9548-AF91-447E-BC9D-9E65F421D1EB_zpstc9z1zbh.jpg.html)

Biro, I refuse to believe that you can't figure out what I'm saying.  It's so obvious, so cut and dry, so black and white (like the bear in your photo), AND obvious.

God said it THREE TIMES of the unclean animals in the vision -> Peter tried to figure out what the vision meant -> THREE men came ->Peter said that God showed they were not uncommon or unclean. (verse 28)

I'm not sure what else I can say  :P
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Theophania on November 25, 2014, 12:18:05 PM
Stop trying to convert us to your brand of pseudo-Jewish sola scriptura fundamentalism.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on November 25, 2014, 12:22:26 PM
So is the consensus of the forum the following -


"God told us not to get tattoos."
"We don't have to listen to God."
"It doesn't matter if its in the bible."
"Tattoos are okay."
?

This isn't the EO church I remember.
I this is more like this:

"Yesh thinks God told us not to get tattoos."
"We don't have to listen to Yesh"
"It isn't actually in the Bible"
"I am more interested in my own self than what someone else puts on their body."
I would put it this way:

Yesh told us not to get tattoos.
Yesh has already shown that many of his teachings put him out of the Church, which he isn't even ashamed to admit.
Yesh is not an Orthodox dogmatic authority.
Therefore, we don't have to listen to Yesh.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 12:26:52 PM
You can repeat how this is the "clear teaching of Scripture" all you want, but that doesn't make it so.

And newsflash, The Orthodox Church does not have an official teaching on tattoos. Certainly people within the Church have opinions and are free to provide those opinions, but that doesn't mean it is a dogma of the Church.
Then what is the point of even listening to your "Holy spiritual Fathers and Masters"?  If you can't accept what they write, nor their advice, even when they are citing the same scriptures I did about tattoos and even EXPAND on it big time - what's the point?

Quote
I don't even have a tattoo and I don't intend on ever getting one, so the question is largely academic for me. The more disturbing thing though, is your insistence that everyone accept your interpretation of Scripture. You don't even allow for reasonable minds to disagree because in your mind, everyone that has a different opinion than you is automatically unreasonable. Pride is discussed far more often in Scripture than tattoos are, yet you have no problem pridefully pronouncing your opinions as inerrant decrees directly from God.

You don't interpret the scriptures, it's written on the original intent of the apostles.  There is only one right way to see them.  The book of Acts was written attesting to Jews (as Peter called himself in verse 28).  They had Jewish culture and Jewish understanding.

It was a Jewish law (as cited in verse 28) that these foreign men were uncommon or unclean.

The vision Peter had, which he had to "figure what it meant" where it was said to him 3 times came right before 3 otherwise "uncommon or unclean" men showed up.  In verse 28, he clearly said what the dream showed him.  "God showed me"...

I don't see why this is even an issue.   It's simply not about food.  As I said, there are other scriptures citing foods as clean if received in Thanksgiving, but this dream is not about clean/unclean food.  

This came from an issue concerning the law & tattoos.   EO sources point right back to the verse I did.  You are not understanding, while we are not under Torah law FOR SALVATION, it is still wise to follow.

ie- Just because you can achieve salvation with a tattoo, doesn't mean God likes them.


Do we love God or not?
  

Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: TheTrisagion on November 25, 2014, 12:30:32 PM
You don't interpret the scriptures, it's written on the original intent of the apostles.  There is only one right way to see them.  
And this is why there is only one understanding of what the Bible says. All people have been able to perfectly receive the Apostles original intent and that is why Christianity is so unified with no divisions or differences of opinions. Right?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 12:33:39 PM
Stop trying to convert us to your brand of pseudo-Jewish sola scriptura fundamentalism.
Blinders.

See sola scriptura is the trigger word to make you feel better to reject.

Just read it.  It's obvious.  This has nothing to do with Jewish, churches, or anything.  

This is seriously Elementary school folks.  

Deny with two fingers in your ears, hands over your eyes, and for what?   Clearly the bible has verses on food elsewhere that justifies the point of clean/unclean food.  But in this scripture, it is NOT talking about food.  PETER, yes St. Peter -> THE ROCK was trying to figure out what the vision meant.   Later he told what God showed him.

Oh my gosh.  Nevermind.   :-\
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: TheTrisagion on November 25, 2014, 12:34:49 PM
I dunno, food coming down from heaven sure seems like a reference to food to me...
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: PeterTheAleut on November 25, 2014, 12:34:59 PM
You can repeat how this is the "clear teaching of Scripture" all you want, but that doesn't make it so.

And newsflash, The Orthodox Church does not have an official teaching on tattoos. Certainly people within the Church have opinions and are free to provide those opinions, but that doesn't mean it is a dogma of the Church.
Then what is the point of even listening to your "Holy spiritual Fathers and Masters"?  If you can't accept what they write, nor their advice, even when they are citing the same scriptures I did about tattoos and even EXPAND on it big time - what's the point?
Yesh, when we want to know what the Fathers teach on certain matters of faith, we'll read them for ourselves. We don't need one who follows his own heresies proof-texting the Fathers for us.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Theophania on November 25, 2014, 12:37:00 PM
Stop trying to convert us to your brand of pseudo-Jewish sola scriptura fundamentalism.
Blinders.

See sola scriptura is the trigger word to make you feel better to reject.

Just read it.  It's obvious.  This has nothing to do with Jewish, churches, or anything.  

This is seriously Elementary school folks.  

Deny with two fingers in your ears, hands over your eyes, and for what?   Clearly the bible has verses on food elsewhere that justifies the point of clean/unclean food.  But in this scripture, it is NOT talking about food.  PETER, yes St. Peter -> THE ROCK was trying to figure out what the vision meant.   Later he told what God showed him.

Oh my gosh.  Nevermind.   :-\

Are you ok?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Theophania on November 25, 2014, 12:38:39 PM
I dunno, food coming down from heaven sure seems like a reference to food to me...

I think it would for most people.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 12:38:51 PM
You don't interpret the scriptures, it's written on the original intent of the apostles.  There is only one right way to see them.  
And this is why there is only one understanding of what the Bible says. All people have been able to perfectly receive the Apostles original intent and that is why Christianity is so unified with no divisions or differences of opinions. Right?
NO.

It's because oral teachings and practices from multi cultures came in and interpreted the original intent of the apostles words.  

Peter said
Acts 10:28 (NIV this time)
28 He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean.

This was right after the dream.

I believe you understand this.  If you want to refuse to believe Peter I guess whatever.

Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 12:43:01 PM
I dunno, food coming down from heaven sure seems like a reference to food to me...
Okay.

Dreams never were interpreted in the scripture.
 :P
Oh yes, and Peter didn't try to FIGURE OUT what the dream meant.

Oh yes, and THREE "unclean/uncommon" people didn't show up.

Oh yes, and Peter did not say that "God has shown him that they were not uncommon or unclean".


It was about food.  Peter was just figuring it out but decided it was about food.   :P
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Theophania on November 25, 2014, 12:44:40 PM
Do you follow all of the OT laws? I mean ALL.

A handy link listing all of them: http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: TheTrisagion on November 25, 2014, 12:45:00 PM
You don't interpret the scriptures, it's written on the original intent of the apostles.  There is only one right way to see them.  
And this is why there is only one understanding of what the Bible says. All people have been able to perfectly receive the Apostles original intent and that is why Christianity is so unified with no divisions or differences of opinions. Right?
NO.

It's because oral teachings and practices from multi cultures came in and interpreted the original intent of the apostles words.  

Hmmm, there is that interpret word that you just denied previously. Are you saying that people do actually interpret the original intent?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 12:46:29 PM
I dunno, food coming down from heaven sure seems like a reference to food to me...

I think it would for most people.

I know.  This is because MOST people have been TOLD how to view this scripture.

Fortunately though Peter clarified the dream - Peter himself said:  Verse 28 (KJV)

28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

For real I do NOT understand why this is so difficult??

Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: TheTrisagion on November 25, 2014, 12:48:04 PM
I dunno, food coming down from heaven sure seems like a reference to food to me...
Okay.

Dreams never were interpreted in the scripture.
 :P
Oh yes, and Peter didn't try to FIGURE OUT what the dream meant.

Oh yes, and THREE "unclean/uncommon" people didn't show up.

Oh yes, and Peter did not say that "God has shown him that they were not uncommon or unclean".


It was about food.  Peter was just figuring it out but decided it was about food.   :P

I think you must have a short term memory. I never said this was just about food. I have consistently said it was about God santifying all things and making all things clean.  Food is included in that, but it isn't just about food.  You are trying to mock me for being reductionist and making this just about food, but the reality is you are doing the same thing and ignoring the larger picture and making the whole thing about three guys.  There is a reason it is in Scripture, so we can ALL learn from the incident.  It isn't just about three guys being cleansed, it is about all of creation being reconciled to God.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 12:49:39 PM
Do you follow all of the OT laws? I mean ALL.

A handy link listing all of them: http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

Why on Earth would you say that?    I'm merely saying THIS SCRIPTURE (Peter's DREAM) is NOT about God's law of clean/unclean food!  It's talking about the three men coming who would otherwise be unclean/uncommon.

There are OTHER SCRIPTURES that talk about ALL FOOD BEING CLEAN.  Yet for some, some things are unclean if they deem it so.


Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Theophania on November 25, 2014, 12:50:52 PM
Do you follow all of the OT laws? I mean ALL.

A handy link listing all of them: http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

Why on Earth would you say that?    I'm merely saying THIS SCRIPTURE (Peter's DREAM) is NOT about God's law of clean/unclean food!  It's talking about the three men coming who would otherwise be unclean/uncommon.

There are OTHER SCRIPTURES that talk about ALL FOOD BEING CLEAN.  Yet for some, some things are unclean if they deem it so.




You really don't understand why I would ask you that?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: TheTrisagion on November 25, 2014, 12:55:22 PM
Do you follow all of the OT laws? I mean ALL.

A handy link listing all of them: http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

Why on Earth would you say that?    I'm merely saying THIS SCRIPTURE (Peter's DREAM) is NOT about God's law of clean/unclean food!  It's talking about the three men coming who would otherwise be unclean/uncommon.

There are OTHER SCRIPTURES that talk about ALL FOOD BEING CLEAN.  Yet for some, some things are unclean if they deem it so.



Interesting factoid, your opinion on what this passage means originates with Seventh Day Adventism and was also believed by Armstrongism. You can go on and on about how obvious it is, but no one believed that interpretation before some mid 19th century heretics.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 12:55:51 PM
I dunno, food coming down from heaven sure seems like a reference to food to me...
Okay.

Dreams never were interpreted in the scripture.
 :P
Oh yes, and Peter didn't try to FIGURE OUT what the dream meant.

Oh yes, and THREE "unclean/uncommon" people didn't show up.

Oh yes, and Peter did not say that "God has shown him that they were not uncommon or unclean".


It was about food.  Peter was just figuring it out but decided it was about food.   :P

I think you must have a short term memory. I never said this was just about food. I have consistently said it was about God santifying all things and making all things clean.  Food is included in that, but it isn't just about food.  You are trying to mock me for being reductionist and making this just about food, but the reality is you are doing the same thing and ignoring the larger picture and making the whole thing about three guys.  There is a reason it is in Scripture, so we can ALL learn from the incident.  It isn't just about three guys being cleansed, it is about all of creation being reconciled to God.

Peter said it was about the three guys (gentiles)!

I don't know how much clearer he could have been.  Not mocking you at all. I just can't understand why this is so tough.  There are clearly OTHER scriptures citing all foods being clean when received in Thanksgiving.  There are other scriptures that talk about some things are unclean to others and to them it is unclean.  There are other scriptures that say NOT TO OFFEND if somebody serves something that is unclean to you.

It's a gray area.

Do you appeal to the following foods:  Rat meat?  Dog?  Cat?  Mouse?

If so, they are clean to you in Thanksgiving.

For me personally, I find rats gross and filthy, Dogs are too cute and gross (eat poop), Cats I don't like them and there is just something about them where I don't want to eat them, and mice are nasty.   They are UNCLEAN to me.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 12:56:43 PM
Do you follow all of the OT laws? I mean ALL.

A handy link listing all of them: http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

Why on Earth would you say that?    I'm merely saying THIS SCRIPTURE (Peter's DREAM) is NOT about God's law of clean/unclean food!  It's talking about the three men coming who would otherwise be unclean/uncommon.

There are OTHER SCRIPTURES that talk about ALL FOOD BEING CLEAN.  Yet for some, some things are unclean if they deem it so.



Interesting factoid, your opinion on what this passage means originates Seventh Day Adventism and was also believed by Armstrongism. You can go on and on about how obvious it is, but no one believed that interpretation before some mid 19th century heretics.

Peter told you what God showed him.  You can accept it or reject it.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 12:59:59 PM
Do you follow all of the OT laws? I mean ALL.

A handy link listing all of them: http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

Why on Earth would you say that?    I'm merely saying THIS SCRIPTURE (Peter's DREAM) is NOT about God's law of clean/unclean food!  It's talking about the three men coming who would otherwise be unclean/uncommon.

There are OTHER SCRIPTURES that talk about ALL FOOD BEING CLEAN.  Yet for some, some things are unclean if they deem it so.




You really don't understand why I would ask you that?

I do.  It's because you are trying to box me in that I'm saying you have to follow the law.   I do not say this.  The law is NOT NECESSARY for salvation.

The law was called good & just in the New Testament.  In thread context, God did not want tattoos in the Old Testament. 

With a tattoo, you can still have salvation through Jesus Christ.

But do you really want to get one if God didn't want them originally?  Why purposely throw yourself into a tattoo chair and pick something out and have it inked on your temple?

Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Theophania on November 25, 2014, 01:00:05 PM
Do you follow all the OT laws or not? If not, why?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 01:03:41 PM
You don't interpret the scriptures, it's written on the original intent of the apostles.  There is only one right way to see them.  
And this is why there is only one understanding of what the Bible says. All people have been able to perfectly receive the Apostles original intent and that is why Christianity is so unified with no divisions or differences of opinions. Right?
NO.

It's because oral teachings and practices from multi cultures came in and interpreted the original intent of the apostles words.  

Hmmm, there is that interpret word that you just denied previously. Are you saying that people do actually interpret the original intent?

YES!!!!!

They interpret the original intent through their own viewpoint and place emphasis on their viewpoint.   This is why so many people believe Peter's dream to be about clean/unclean food when even Peter HIMSELF was trying to figure out what it meant -> Which later he told what God SHOWED HIM!

The horrible thing is, many folks will simply just say "it meant both".   Peter didn't say that.  Three times -> Three men -> God showed me that....
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: TheTrisagion on November 25, 2014, 01:06:08 PM
I dunno, food coming down from heaven sure seems like a reference to food to me...
Okay.

Dreams never were interpreted in the scripture.
 :P
Oh yes, and Peter didn't try to FIGURE OUT what the dream meant.

Oh yes, and THREE "unclean/uncommon" people didn't show up.

Oh yes, and Peter did not say that "God has shown him that they were not uncommon or unclean".


It was about food.  Peter was just figuring it out but decided it was about food.   :P

I think you must have a short term memory. I never said this was just about food. I have consistently said it was about God santifying all things and making all things clean.  Food is included in that, but it isn't just about food.  You are trying to mock me for being reductionist and making this just about food, but the reality is you are doing the same thing and ignoring the larger picture and making the whole thing about three guys.  There is a reason it is in Scripture, so we can ALL learn from the incident.  It isn't just about three guys being cleansed, it is about all of creation being reconciled to God.

Peter said it was about the three guys (gentiles)!

I don't know how much clearer he could have been.  Not mocking you at all. I just can't understand why this is so tough.  There are clearly OTHER scriptures citing all foods being clean when received in Thanksgiving.  There are other scriptures that talk about some things are unclean to others and to them it is unclean.  There are other scriptures that say NOT TO OFFEND if somebody serves something that is unclean to you.

It's a gray area.

Do you appeal to the following foods:  Rat meat?  Dog?  Cat?  Mouse?

If so, they are clean to you in Thanksgiving.

For me personally, I find rats gross and filthy, Dogs are too cute and gross (eat poop), Cats I don't like them and there is just something about them where I don't want to eat them, and mice are nasty.   They are UNCLEAN to me.

It isn't tough at all, you have latched on to a 19th century teaching by a heretical group and it makes sense to you, so you run with it. I tend to be skeptical of teachings that arise 1800 years after the Church was founded, so I ignore such theories and hold to what the Church has taught throughout history. It is just two different ways of interpreting Scripture.  I will leave it to God which manner was His intent.

With all seriousness, I will say that I would have no problem eating rat, dog, cat or mouse. The reason I do not is because I buy my food at a grocery store that does not stock such food. In foreign countries, I have eaten hamsters, octopus, llamas, and other strange animals. It doesn't bother me at all. You are confusing what you find to be distasteful as some sort of a spiritual sign from God that you shouldn't eat it. Those are two different things.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 01:16:30 PM
Do you follow all the OT laws or not? If not, why?
I'll jump on your question, but condensed.  Plz don't contort.

No.

I do not follow all the OT laws because many of them were overwritten.  Such as putting to death people for various sins.

I respect OT laws.  I try to follow what I can follow.  

The tattoo thing is simple.

Food seems like a gray area because we do hold certain foods as unclean -> like we don't want to eat a rat burger.  Some may see pork this way.   It's a gray area with gentiles because cultures will hold certain things as clean or unclean.   Like dog steaks here would be terrible.  Cow steaks in India would be taboo... etc.

But for tattoos, it's a very purposeful act.  You have to GO OUT OF YOUR WAY to get one.  Here in America, you typically would have to go to a tattoo parlor, pick out what you want or show a drawing, then go through the process & pay for it.  It's not like you just "happened upon it".    God told us not to get them in the OT.  While some people still do get them obviously they through Christ can achieve salvation.

Let me ask:: Do you LOVE God?   I mean really love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and soul?   I think we can follow the basis of OT law through the love of God.  I can't imagine in the OT God forbidding tattoos and in the NT your body is called "the temple of the Holy Spirit" and God wanting you to get tattoos.

It amazes me how many tattoo parlors are near bars, night clubs, liquor stores, and in shady areas of town.  (just an observation)

Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: sakura95 on November 25, 2014, 01:22:52 PM
Paul's writings are difficult to understand - even to Peter.
2 Peter 3:16
The letters of Paul left a gray area, such as saying "to those who think something is unclean, it is unclean to them".   (but otherwise all things CAN be clean).   Do you eat dog?  Didn't think so..... It left room to spread Jesus Christ through the nations.  In Vietnam, people eat dog.  They don't see it as dirty of gross.  It's clean to them.  Unclean to most of us....  Same with circumcision.  The words clearly spell out this gray area.

Clearly in the New Testament, it talks about your body being the temple of the Holy Spirit.  This means it was designed by God exactly the way he wanted it. To go modify it with a tattoo (of your choice of course) doesn't seem to go with the flow of the New or Old Testament.

I am not Vietnamese but as someone from the same region as Vietnam, I can confirm that they do indeed consume Dog meat. Same as in China and if I'm not mistaken, Korea. But there's more unclean stuff than dog meat that is consumed in the Asian Continent such as the penises of various animals(I'm not making this up, I nearly ate one during a trip to China until my mom told me what it was), pig blood(It has the consistency of pudding and is chocolate in color), various insects( I consumed some of these delicacies on some occasions such as bee larvae in Taiwan and the larvae of some beetle from where I came from), shellfish(Prawns, crabs, jellyfish and anything from the sea without scales), turtles, frogs, snakes....etc

Odd that you have to pick the humble dog meat of all the other odd and "unclean" stuff that inhabitants of the Asian continent consume. I mean why not ask whether we eat the penis of some animal or coagulated wobbly pig blood. Dog meat is simply too ordinary to be mentioned.

Just to be clear I never consumed dog meat throughout my entire life. I can't say the same for the various non scaled creatures of the sea, pig's blood, turtles, frogs, insects...etc though.

If you really want to know the answer, I picked it because most Americans would find dog meat a immoral/gross/nasty/disgusting/ or "not right" thing to do.  This is because most Americans would find such a thing as "unclean" but they would not always say "unclean".

Also if I brought up penises, somebody would just say hot dogs, which have plenty of pork penises and snouts.  So does bologna.  Many here would just think "meh".   So to make the point, I had to mention an animal that most English speakers would be able to see.   Most would think eating a dog is just simply not right.

Yes you are right, there are worse things than dog.

Americans don't find eating Dog meat "unclean". The reason is that many have a form of emotional attachment towards dogs. They are beyond livestock to us they are almost like our companions and we shower them with our love by petting them, taking them for walks, playing with them...etc. With such activities a Dog is beyond livestock. It has become somewhat of a "friend" and nobody would want to kill a friend for the sake of consumption in normal circumstances. Hence, Americans would typically think that eating dog meat is wrong out of compassion and disgust for killing their canine friends not because it is deemed unclean by God or is just "dirty". I mean dog saliva is cleaner than human saliva when you think about it.

Hot Dogs are also just mere minced meat encased by a membrane of the intestinal wall. People here would simply use "hot dogs" in relation to penises as a joke given the very similar shape it takes.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: TheTrisagion on November 25, 2014, 01:27:44 PM
Do you follow all the OT laws or not? If not, why?
I'll jump on your question, but condensed.  Plz don't contort.

No.

I do not follow all the OT laws because many of them were overwritten.  Such as putting to death people for various sins.

I respect OT laws.  I try to follow what I can follow.  

The tattoo thing is simple.

Food seems like a gray area because we do hold certain foods as unclean -> like we don't want to eat a rat burger.  Some may see pork this way.   It's a gray area with gentiles because cultures will hold certain things as clean or unclean.   Like dog steaks here would be terrible.  Cow steaks in India would be taboo... etc.

But for tattoos, it's a very purposeful act.  You have to GO OUT OF YOUR WAY to get one.  Here in America, you typically would have to go to a tattoo parlor, pick out what you want or show a drawing, then go through the process & pay for it.  It's not like you just "happened upon it".    God told us not to get them in the OT.  While some people still do get them obviously they through Christ can achieve salvation.

Let me ask:: Do you LOVE God?   I mean really love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and soul?   I think we can follow the basis of OT law through the love of God.  I can't imagine in the OT God forbidding tattoos and in the NT your body is called "the temple of the Holy Spirit" and God wanting you to get tattoos.

It amazes me how many tattoo parlors are near bars, night clubs, liquor stores, and in shady areas of town.  (just an observation)


It sounds like you have a very arbitrary way of deciding what laws you do and do not follow.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Theophania on November 25, 2014, 01:28:31 PM
Do you follow all the OT laws or not? If not, why?
I'll jump on your question, but condensed.  Plz don't contort.

No.

I do not follow all the OT laws because many of them were overwritten.  Such as putting to death people for various sins.

I respect OT laws.  I try to follow what I can follow.  

The tattoo thing is simple.

Food seems like a gray area because we do hold certain foods as unclean -> like we don't want to eat a rat burger.  Some may see pork this way.   It's a gray area with gentiles because cultures will hold certain things as clean or unclean.   Like dog steaks here would be terrible.  Cow steaks in India would be taboo... etc.

But for tattoos, it's a very purposeful act.  You have to GO OUT OF YOUR WAY to get one.  Here in America, you typically would have to go to a tattoo parlor, pick out what you want or show a drawing, then go through the process & pay for it.  It's not like you just "happened upon it".    God told us not to get them in the OT.  While some people still do get them obviously they through Christ can achieve salvation.

Let me ask:: Do you LOVE God?   I mean really love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and soul?   I think we can follow the basis of OT law through the love of God.  I can't imagine in the OT God forbidding tattoos and in the NT your body is called "the temple of the Holy Spirit" and God wanting you to get tattoos.

It amazes me how many tattoo parlors are near bars, night clubs, liquor stores, and in shady areas of town.  (just an observation)


It sounds like you have a very arbitrary way of deciding what laws you do and do not follow.

That's why I asked.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 01:29:53 PM
With all seriousness, I will say that I would have no problem eating rat, dog, cat or mouse. The reason I do not is because I buy my food at a grocery store that does not stock such food. In foreign countries, I have eaten hamsters, octopus, llamas, and other strange animals. It doesn't bother me at all. You are confusing what you find to be distasteful as some sort of a spiritual sign from God that you shouldn't eat it. Those are two different things.
That's okay by me.  It's also very scriptural that you would eat these things and it would be clean to you.  Hopefully you gave thanks. (don't know your background).  

Personally for me, I would find these things unclean on a normal basis. But I disagree about distasteful (in flavor and ethic), it's not about taste.  I truly find rats as an unclean animal as well as dogs.  

With that said, I would eat these things especially if I was evangelizing to others and they were serving it to me.  I would receive with Thanksgiving and try not to gag on them to not cause offense.

Scripturally it says if something is unclean to me it is unclean.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

For me I would hold Rats, dogs, cats, pigs, rabbits, catfish amongst several other animals as unclean.

I would hold animals such as cows, chickens, bass, goats, sheep (lamb sounds so good), ducks, buffalo amongst others as clean.

Much of the unclean I cited consume their own feces and feces of other animals.  This is a huge reason it grosses me out.  But this is personal (Romans 14:14).   Biblically though, and to not offend, if served one of these animals, I receive in Thanksgiving anyway.

To those who think these are clean animals, then they are clean.  

I just think the scriptures are clear on this.  

For tattoos, God didn't want us to get them in the OT.  Our bodies are referred to as the temple of the holy spirit in the NT.  Why go OUT OF OUR WAY to get a tattoo then?  It does not prevent salvation, but I lean on what I think God wants me to do.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 01:31:53 PM
Paul's writings are difficult to understand - even to Peter.
2 Peter 3:16
The letters of Paul left a gray area, such as saying "to those who think something is unclean, it is unclean to them".   (but otherwise all things CAN be clean).   Do you eat dog?  Didn't think so..... It left room to spread Jesus Christ through the nations.  In Vietnam, people eat dog.  They don't see it as dirty of gross.  It's clean to them.  Unclean to most of us....  Same with circumcision.  The words clearly spell out this gray area.

Clearly in the New Testament, it talks about your body being the temple of the Holy Spirit.  This means it was designed by God exactly the way he wanted it. To go modify it with a tattoo (of your choice of course) doesn't seem to go with the flow of the New or Old Testament.

I am not Vietnamese but as someone from the same region as Vietnam, I can confirm that they do indeed consume Dog meat. Same as in China and if I'm not mistaken, Korea. But there's more unclean stuff than dog meat that is consumed in the Asian Continent such as the penises of various animals(I'm not making this up, I nearly ate one during a trip to China until my mom told me what it was), pig blood(It has the consistency of pudding and is chocolate in color), various insects( I consumed some of these delicacies on some occasions such as bee larvae in Taiwan and the larvae of some beetle from where I came from), shellfish(Prawns, crabs, jellyfish and anything from the sea without scales), turtles, frogs, snakes....etc

Odd that you have to pick the humble dog meat of all the other odd and "unclean" stuff that inhabitants of the Asian continent consume. I mean why not ask whether we eat the penis of some animal or coagulated wobbly pig blood. Dog meat is simply too ordinary to be mentioned.

Just to be clear I never consumed dog meat throughout my entire life. I can't say the same for the various non scaled creatures of the sea, pig's blood, turtles, frogs, insects...etc though.

If you really want to know the answer, I picked it because most Americans would find dog meat a immoral/gross/nasty/disgusting/ or "not right" thing to do.  This is because most Americans would find such a thing as "unclean" but they would not always say "unclean".

Also if I brought up penises, somebody would just say hot dogs, which have plenty of pork penises and snouts.  So does bologna.  Many here would just think "meh".   So to make the point, I had to mention an animal that most English speakers would be able to see.   Most would think eating a dog is just simply not right.

Yes you are right, there are worse things than dog.

Americans don't find eating Dog meat "unclean". The reason is that many have a form of emotional attachment towards dogs. They are beyond livestock to us they are almost like our companions and we shower them with our love by petting them, taking them for walks, playing with them...etc. With such activities a Dog is beyond livestock. It has become somewhat of a "friend" and nobody would want to kill a friend for the sake of consumption in normal circumstances. Hence, Americans would typically think that eating dog meat is wrong out of compassion and disgust for killing their canine friends not because it is deemed unclean by God or is just "dirty". I mean dog saliva is cleaner than human saliva when you think about it.

Hot Dogs are also just mere minced meat encased by a membrane of the intestinal wall. People here would simply use "hot dogs" in relation to penises as a joke given the very similar shape it takes.

Trust me, livestock can be the SAME way.  I have a goat that is an awesome friend and pal.  It's not about the personality for me.  Besides Romans 14:14 clears this up anyway so...
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: sakura95 on November 25, 2014, 01:33:57 PM
Not sure about the huge Biblical slug fest over "clean" and "unclean" foods but it is important to note that Biblical verses and passages can have multiple interpretations. It is not linear in the sense that if a passage says "X", then "X" is the only meaning and interpretation to be derived from the passage. There are other meanings within Scripture which means Acts 10 could refer to all animals being "clean" and therefore permitted for consumption or as St John Chrysostom puts it in his homilies, God commanding Peter to reach out to the Gentiles as I would cite from the Saint himself,

Quote
The earth then, this is what the linen sheet denotes, and the wild beasts in it, are they of the Gentiles, and the command, "Kill and eat," denotes that he must go to them also; and that this thing is thrice done, denotes baptism.

Read the whole homily here to better understand,

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/chrysostom/acts/10.htm

The problem with this comes when someone decides to be too narrow about a particular verse regarding a certain issue. It declares the permittence of the consumption of "unclean" animals whilst bearing the message of God exhorting Peter to reach out to the Gentiles.

Either way I love food even if it is "unclean" food but since the Lord Himself permitted Peter to kill and eat unclean beasts, then surely it is truly right and just to consume all the "unclean" shellfish, eel, insects and creatures that I relished and savor on multiple instances and occasions.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: TheTrisagion on November 25, 2014, 01:40:33 PM
With all seriousness, I will say that I would have no problem eating rat, dog, cat or mouse. The reason I do not is because I buy my food at a grocery store that does not stock such food. In foreign countries, I have eaten hamsters, octopus, llamas, and other strange animals. It doesn't bother me at all. You are confusing what you find to be distasteful as some sort of a spiritual sign from God that you shouldn't eat it. Those are two different things.
That's okay by me.  It's also very scriptural that you would eat these things and it would be clean to you.  Hopefully you gave thanks. (don't know your background).  

Personally for me, I would find these things unclean on a normal basis. But I disagree about distasteful (in flavor and ethic), it's not about taste.  I truly find rats as an unclean animal as well as dogs.  

With that said, I would eat these things especially if I was evangelizing to others and they were serving it to me.  I would receive with Thanksgiving and try not to gag on them to not cause offense.

Scripturally it says if something is unclean to me it is unclean.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

For me I would hold Rats, dogs, cats, pigs, rabbits, catfish amongst several other animals as unclean.

I would hold animals such as cows, chickens, bass, goats, sheep (lamb sounds so good), ducks, buffalo amongst others as clean.

Much of the unclean I cited consume their own feces and feces of other animals.  This is a huge reason it grosses me out.  But this is personal (Romans 14:14).   Biblically though, and to not offend, if served one of these animals, I receive in Thanksgiving anyway.

To those who think these are clean animals, then they are clean.  

I just think the scriptures are clear on this.  

For tattoos, God didn't want us to get them in the OT.  Our bodies are referred to as the temple of the holy spirit in the NT.  Why go OUT OF OUR WAY to get a tattoo then?  It does not prevent salvation, but I lean on what I think God wants me to do.

Clean and unclean animals were not a commentary on their grooming or hygene habits, they were designations regarding their ritual suitability for use. The Bible is not saying, if you find animal yucky to eat, then you shouldn't eat them. I don't need divine inspiration that that piece of information. Animals were dividing into clean and unclean as a way of separating from the surrounding people. The same thing with tattoos and with trimming ones beard. They were given to the Jews to separate them from the Canaanites based on the cultural specificities of the day. You can't carry that over to 21st century and say it is the same thing. For example, the reason the Copts get tattoos is BECAUSE they are trying to remain separate from the world around them. I get the feeling that you try so hard to follow the letter of the law, but miss the entire purpose these things were dictated.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 01:41:22 PM
Do you follow all the OT laws or not? If not, why?
I'll jump on your question, but condensed.  Plz don't contort.

No.

I do not follow all the OT laws because many of them were overwritten.  Such as putting to death people for various sins.

I respect OT laws.  I try to follow what I can follow.  

The tattoo thing is simple.

Food seems like a gray area because we do hold certain foods as unclean -> like we don't want to eat a rat burger.  Some may see pork this way.   It's a gray area with gentiles because cultures will hold certain things as clean or unclean.   Like dog steaks here would be terrible.  Cow steaks in India would be taboo... etc.

But for tattoos, it's a very purposeful act.  You have to GO OUT OF YOUR WAY to get one.  Here in America, you typically would have to go to a tattoo parlor, pick out what you want or show a drawing, then go through the process & pay for it.  It's not like you just "happened upon it".    God told us not to get them in the OT.  While some people still do get them obviously they through Christ can achieve salvation.

Let me ask:: Do you LOVE God?   I mean really love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and soul?   I think we can follow the basis of OT law through the love of God.  I can't imagine in the OT God forbidding tattoos and in the NT your body is called "the temple of the Holy Spirit" and God wanting you to get tattoos.

It amazes me how many tattoo parlors are near bars, night clubs, liquor stores, and in shady areas of town.  (just an observation)


It sounds like you have a very arbitrary way of deciding what laws you do and do not follow.

That's why I asked.
I can understand why it sounds that way.    Text and forums don't explain enough and it's too long winded (or typed).

The OT law we do not have to follow for Salvation.  This is clear.
The OT law was called good and just in the NT.  This is also clearly written.

There are clearly OVERWRITTEN OT laws by God through his son Jesus Christ.

The law is a good thing to follow, such as the 10 commandments.

When God tells us not to put tattoo marks on our body in the Law, that was law.  The New Covenant (Jesus) case to FULFILL the law.  Some things were overwritten.  Some things seem like gray areas such as Romans 14:14.

Nothing in the NT talked directly about tattoos.   But do you really think God wants you to have one?


See you are seeing my viewpoint incorrectly.  Spiritually speaking, I would not get one because I would think God doesn't want me to based on his first law and because he called my body the temple of the Holy Spirit.   I would not get one for the love of God and respect.   Referencing that part of his law.  On a personal level, I would not get one because I do not personally like them and it would seem funky to not be able to wash something that was printed on/in my body off.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 01:42:05 PM
With all seriousness, I will say that I would have no problem eating rat, dog, cat or mouse. The reason I do not is because I buy my food at a grocery store that does not stock such food. In foreign countries, I have eaten hamsters, octopus, llamas, and other strange animals. It doesn't bother me at all. You are confusing what you find to be distasteful as some sort of a spiritual sign from God that you shouldn't eat it. Those are two different things.
That's okay by me.  It's also very scriptural that you would eat these things and it would be clean to you.  Hopefully you gave thanks. (don't know your background).  

Personally for me, I would find these things unclean on a normal basis. But I disagree about distasteful (in flavor and ethic), it's not about taste.  I truly find rats as an unclean animal as well as dogs.  

With that said, I would eat these things especially if I was evangelizing to others and they were serving it to me.  I would receive with Thanksgiving and try not to gag on them to not cause offense.

Scripturally it says if something is unclean to me it is unclean.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

For me I would hold Rats, dogs, cats, pigs, rabbits, catfish amongst several other animals as unclean.

I would hold animals such as cows, chickens, bass, goats, sheep (lamb sounds so good), ducks, buffalo amongst others as clean.

Much of the unclean I cited consume their own feces and feces of other animals.  This is a huge reason it grosses me out.  But this is personal (Romans 14:14).   Biblically though, and to not offend, if served one of these animals, I receive in Thanksgiving anyway.

To those who think these are clean animals, then they are clean.  

I just think the scriptures are clear on this.  

For tattoos, God didn't want us to get them in the OT.  Our bodies are referred to as the temple of the holy spirit in the NT.  Why go OUT OF OUR WAY to get a tattoo then?  It does not prevent salvation, but I lean on what I think God wants me to do.

Clean and unclean animals were not a commentary on their grooming or hygene habits, they were designations regarding their ritual suitability for use. The Bible is not saying, if you find animal yucky to eat, then you shouldn't eat them. I don't need divine inspiration that that piece of information. Animals were dividing into clean and unclean as a way of separating from the surrounding people. The same thing with tattoos and with trimming ones beard. They were given to the Jews to separate them from the Canaanites based on the cultural specificities of the day. You can't carry that over to 21st century and say it is the same thing. For example, the reason the Copts get tattoos is BECAUSE they are trying to remain separate from the world around them. I get the feeling that you try so hard to follow the letter of the law, but miss the entire purpose these things were dictated.

What does Romans 14:14 mean?  Please tell me.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: sakura95 on November 25, 2014, 01:42:12 PM
Paul's writings are difficult to understand - even to Peter.
2 Peter 3:16
The letters of Paul left a gray area, such as saying "to those who think something is unclean, it is unclean to them".   (but otherwise all things CAN be clean).   Do you eat dog?  Didn't think so..... It left room to spread Jesus Christ through the nations.  In Vietnam, people eat dog.  They don't see it as dirty of gross.  It's clean to them.  Unclean to most of us....  Same with circumcision.  The words clearly spell out this gray area.

Clearly in the New Testament, it talks about your body being the temple of the Holy Spirit.  This means it was designed by God exactly the way he wanted it. To go modify it with a tattoo (of your choice of course) doesn't seem to go with the flow of the New or Old Testament.

I am not Vietnamese but as someone from the same region as Vietnam, I can confirm that they do indeed consume Dog meat. Same as in China and if I'm not mistaken, Korea. But there's more unclean stuff than dog meat that is consumed in the Asian Continent such as the penises of various animals(I'm not making this up, I nearly ate one during a trip to China until my mom told me what it was), pig blood(It has the consistency of pudding and is chocolate in color), various insects( I consumed some of these delicacies on some occasions such as bee larvae in Taiwan and the larvae of some beetle from where I came from), shellfish(Prawns, crabs, jellyfish and anything from the sea without scales), turtles, frogs, snakes....etc

Odd that you have to pick the humble dog meat of all the other odd and "unclean" stuff that inhabitants of the Asian continent consume. I mean why not ask whether we eat the penis of some animal or coagulated wobbly pig blood. Dog meat is simply too ordinary to be mentioned.

Just to be clear I never consumed dog meat throughout my entire life. I can't say the same for the various non scaled creatures of the sea, pig's blood, turtles, frogs, insects...etc though.

If you really want to know the answer, I picked it because most Americans would find dog meat a immoral/gross/nasty/disgusting/ or "not right" thing to do.  This is because most Americans would find such a thing as "unclean" but they would not always say "unclean".

Also if I brought up penises, somebody would just say hot dogs, which have plenty of pork penises and snouts.  So does bologna.  Many here would just think "meh".   So to make the point, I had to mention an animal that most English speakers would be able to see.   Most would think eating a dog is just simply not right.

Yes you are right, there are worse things than dog.

Americans don't find eating Dog meat "unclean". The reason is that many have a form of emotional attachment towards dogs. They are beyond livestock to us they are almost like our companions and we shower them with our love by petting them, taking them for walks, playing with them...etc. With such activities a Dog is beyond livestock. It has become somewhat of a "friend" and nobody would want to kill a friend for the sake of consumption in normal circumstances. Hence, Americans would typically think that eating dog meat is wrong out of compassion and disgust for killing their canine friends not because it is deemed unclean by God or is just "dirty". I mean dog saliva is cleaner than human saliva when you think about it.

Hot Dogs are also just mere minced meat encased by a membrane of the intestinal wall. People here would simply use "hot dogs" in relation to penises as a joke given the very similar shape it takes.

Trust me, livestock can be the SAME way.  I have a goat that is an awesome friend and pal.  It's not about the personality for me.  Besides Romans 14:14 clears this up anyway so...

Attachments towards creatures and objects are only natural. However from an American social standpoint, dogs =/= livestock and therefore it would be wrong to consume it. Human beings have the tendency to "box" things up into various categories and properties. The same with dogs and cows. Besides the forms they take and the noises these two make, society would dictate the dog to be a "pet" and the cow to be "livestock" for consumption. It is not because of hygiene factors or Divine Command that Americans would be revolted at the thought of consuming dog meat.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: TheTrisagion on November 25, 2014, 01:50:01 PM
With all seriousness, I will say that I would have no problem eating rat, dog, cat or mouse. The reason I do not is because I buy my food at a grocery store that does not stock such food. In foreign countries, I have eaten hamsters, octopus, llamas, and other strange animals. It doesn't bother me at all. You are confusing what you find to be distasteful as some sort of a spiritual sign from God that you shouldn't eat it. Those are two different things.
That's okay by me.  It's also very scriptural that you would eat these things and it would be clean to you.  Hopefully you gave thanks. (don't know your background).  

Personally for me, I would find these things unclean on a normal basis. But I disagree about distasteful (in flavor and ethic), it's not about taste.  I truly find rats as an unclean animal as well as dogs.  

With that said, I would eat these things especially if I was evangelizing to others and they were serving it to me.  I would receive with Thanksgiving and try not to gag on them to not cause offense.

Scripturally it says if something is unclean to me it is unclean.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

For me I would hold Rats, dogs, cats, pigs, rabbits, catfish amongst several other animals as unclean.

I would hold animals such as cows, chickens, bass, goats, sheep (lamb sounds so good), ducks, buffalo amongst others as clean.

Much of the unclean I cited consume their own feces and feces of other animals.  This is a huge reason it grosses me out.  But this is personal (Romans 14:14).   Biblically though, and to not offend, if served one of these animals, I receive in Thanksgiving anyway.

To those who think these are clean animals, then they are clean.  

I just think the scriptures are clear on this.  

For tattoos, God didn't want us to get them in the OT.  Our bodies are referred to as the temple of the holy spirit in the NT.  Why go OUT OF OUR WAY to get a tattoo then?  It does not prevent salvation, but I lean on what I think God wants me to do.

Clean and unclean animals were not a commentary on their grooming or hygene habits, they were designations regarding their ritual suitability for use. The Bible is not saying, if you find animal yucky to eat, then you shouldn't eat them. I don't need divine inspiration that that piece of information. Animals were dividing into clean and unclean as a way of separating from the surrounding people. The same thing with tattoos and with trimming ones beard. They were given to the Jews to separate them from the Canaanites based on the cultural specificities of the day. You can't carry that over to 21st century and say it is the same thing. For example, the reason the Copts get tattoos is BECAUSE they are trying to remain separate from the world around them. I get the feeling that you try so hard to follow the letter of the law, but miss the entire purpose these things were dictated.

What does Romans 14:14 mean?  Please tell me.
St. Paul is writing to the Christian in Rome, most of whom were of Jewish origin. He is telling them that although God has santified all things (food included), if there are people who cannot mentally get passed their ingrained belief in the Jewish law concerning ritually clean and unclean animals and food, then they should not eat the foods that the law deemed unclean because it would harm their conscience. That has nothing to do with whether you personally find a food to be disgusting. It would not, for example, be a proper understanding of this verse for my daughter to tell me that God does not want her to eat her vegetables because she considers them to be yucky and making her eat them would grieve her. A modern day example would be if a Muslim converted to Christianity, but the concept of eating pork was so ingrained into him/her that she could not do so without feeling guilty, it would be appropriate for that individual to abstain from pork even though it is not considered unclean under Christ.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 03:12:17 PM
With all seriousness, I will say that I would have no problem eating rat, dog, cat or mouse. The reason I do not is because I buy my food at a grocery store that does not stock such food. In foreign countries, I have eaten hamsters, octopus, llamas, and other strange animals. It doesn't bother me at all. You are confusing what you find to be distasteful as some sort of a spiritual sign from God that you shouldn't eat it. Those are two different things.
That's okay by me.  It's also very scriptural that you would eat these things and it would be clean to you.  Hopefully you gave thanks. (don't know your background).  

Personally for me, I would find these things unclean on a normal basis. But I disagree about distasteful (in flavor and ethic), it's not about taste.  I truly find rats as an unclean animal as well as dogs.  

With that said, I would eat these things especially if I was evangelizing to others and they were serving it to me.  I would receive with Thanksgiving and try not to gag on them to not cause offense.

Scripturally it says if something is unclean to me it is unclean.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

For me I would hold Rats, dogs, cats, pigs, rabbits, catfish amongst several other animals as unclean.

I would hold animals such as cows, chickens, bass, goats, sheep (lamb sounds so good), ducks, buffalo amongst others as clean.

Much of the unclean I cited consume their own feces and feces of other animals.  This is a huge reason it grosses me out.  But this is personal (Romans 14:14).   Biblically though, and to not offend, if served one of these animals, I receive in Thanksgiving anyway.

To those who think these are clean animals, then they are clean.  

I just think the scriptures are clear on this.  

For tattoos, God didn't want us to get them in the OT.  Our bodies are referred to as the temple of the holy spirit in the NT.  Why go OUT OF OUR WAY to get a tattoo then?  It does not prevent salvation, but I lean on what I think God wants me to do.

Clean and unclean animals were not a commentary on their grooming or hygene habits, they were designations regarding their ritual suitability for use. The Bible is not saying, if you find animal yucky to eat, then you shouldn't eat them. I don't need divine inspiration that that piece of information. Animals were dividing into clean and unclean as a way of separating from the surrounding people. The same thing with tattoos and with trimming ones beard. They were given to the Jews to separate them from the Canaanites based on the cultural specificities of the day. You can't carry that over to 21st century and say it is the same thing. For example, the reason the Copts get tattoos is BECAUSE they are trying to remain separate from the world around them. I get the feeling that you try so hard to follow the letter of the law, but miss the entire purpose these things were dictated.

What does Romans 14:14 mean?  Please tell me.
St. Paul is writing to the Christian in Rome, most of whom were of Jewish origin. He is telling them that although God has santified all things (food included), if there are people who cannot mentally get passed their ingrained belief in the Jewish law concerning ritually clean and unclean animals and food, then they should not eat the foods that the law deemed unclean because it would harm their conscience. That has nothing to do with whether you personally find a food to be disgusting. It would not, for example, be a proper understanding of this verse for my daughter to tell me that God does not want her to eat her vegetables because she considers them to be yucky and making her eat them would grieve her. A modern day example would be if a Muslim converted to Christianity, but the concept of eating pork was so ingrained into him/her that she could not do so without feeling guilty, it would be appropriate for that individual to abstain from pork even though it is not considered unclean under Christ.

It's ingrained in me the sae way.  I think God instilled in me that eating a dog is unclean.

Look if you want dogburgers or ratburgers, that's fine.  I will find them unclean on a personal level but believe that God cleaned all things. It's merely unclean to me.

Is that such a problem to you?  I don't find anything you eat as you eating unclean, it is just unclean for me to eat certain things on my own.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: yeshuaisiam on November 25, 2014, 03:14:24 PM
Paul's writings are difficult to understand - even to Peter.
2 Peter 3:16
The letters of Paul left a gray area, such as saying "to those who think something is unclean, it is unclean to them".   (but otherwise all things CAN be clean).   Do you eat dog?  Didn't think so..... It left room to spread Jesus Christ through the nations.  In Vietnam, people eat dog.  They don't see it as dirty of gross.  It's clean to them.  Unclean to most of us....  Same with circumcision.  The words clearly spell out this gray area.

Clearly in the New Testament, it talks about your body being the temple of the Holy Spirit.  This means it was designed by God exactly the way he wanted it. To go modify it with a tattoo (of your choice of course) doesn't seem to go with the flow of the New or Old Testament.

I am not Vietnamese but as someone from the same region as Vietnam, I can confirm that they do indeed consume Dog meat. Same as in China and if I'm not mistaken, Korea. But there's more unclean stuff than dog meat that is consumed in the Asian Continent such as the penises of various animals(I'm not making this up, I nearly ate one during a trip to China until my mom told me what it was), pig blood(It has the consistency of pudding and is chocolate in color), various insects( I consumed some of these delicacies on some occasions such as bee larvae in Taiwan and the larvae of some beetle from where I came from), shellfish(Prawns, crabs, jellyfish and anything from the sea without scales), turtles, frogs, snakes....etc

Odd that you have to pick the humble dog meat of all the other odd and "unclean" stuff that inhabitants of the Asian continent consume. I mean why not ask whether we eat the penis of some animal or coagulated wobbly pig blood. Dog meat is simply too ordinary to be mentioned.

Just to be clear I never consumed dog meat throughout my entire life. I can't say the same for the various non scaled creatures of the sea, pig's blood, turtles, frogs, insects...etc though.

If you really want to know the answer, I picked it because most Americans would find dog meat a immoral/gross/nasty/disgusting/ or "not right" thing to do.  This is because most Americans would find such a thing as "unclean" but they would not always say "unclean".

Also if I brought up penises, somebody would just say hot dogs, which have plenty of pork penises and snouts.  So does bologna.  Many here would just think "meh".   So to make the point, I had to mention an animal that most English speakers would be able to see.   Most would think eating a dog is just simply not right.

Yes you are right, there are worse things than dog.

Americans don't find eating Dog meat "unclean". The reason is that many have a form of emotional attachment towards dogs. They are beyond livestock to us they are almost like our companions and we shower them with our love by petting them, taking them for walks, playing with them...etc. With such activities a Dog is beyond livestock. It has become somewhat of a "friend" and nobody would want to kill a friend for the sake of consumption in normal circumstances. Hence, Americans would typically think that eating dog meat is wrong out of compassion and disgust for killing their canine friends not because it is deemed unclean by God or is just "dirty". I mean dog saliva is cleaner than human saliva when you think about it.

Hot Dogs are also just mere minced meat encased by a membrane of the intestinal wall. People here would simply use "hot dogs" in relation to penises as a joke given the very similar shape it takes.

Trust me, livestock can be the SAME way.  I have a goat that is an awesome friend and pal.  It's not about the personality for me.  Besides Romans 14:14 clears this up anyway so...

Attachments towards creatures and objects are only natural. However from an American social standpoint, dogs =/= livestock and therefore it would be wrong to consume it. Human beings have the tendency to "box" things up into various categories and properties. The same with dogs and cows. Besides the forms they take and the noises these two make, society would dictate the dog to be a "pet" and the cow to be "livestock" for consumption. It is not because of hygiene factors or Divine Command that Americans would be revolted at the thought of consuming dog meat.

That is fine.  For me personally as an America and what I know, I do not eat dog because it is gross for me and unclean. 

I do not get tattoos because I believe God doesn't want me to go out of my way and get one, and would rather I respect the temple.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: TheTrisagion on November 25, 2014, 03:34:40 PM
With all seriousness, I will say that I would have no problem eating rat, dog, cat or mouse. The reason I do not is because I buy my food at a grocery store that does not stock such food. In foreign countries, I have eaten hamsters, octopus, llamas, and other strange animals. It doesn't bother me at all. You are confusing what you find to be distasteful as some sort of a spiritual sign from God that you shouldn't eat it. Those are two different things.
That's okay by me.  It's also very scriptural that you would eat these things and it would be clean to you.  Hopefully you gave thanks. (don't know your background).  

Personally for me, I would find these things unclean on a normal basis. But I disagree about distasteful (in flavor and ethic), it's not about taste.  I truly find rats as an unclean animal as well as dogs.  

With that said, I would eat these things especially if I was evangelizing to others and they were serving it to me.  I would receive with Thanksgiving and try not to gag on them to not cause offense.

Scripturally it says if something is unclean to me it is unclean.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

For me I would hold Rats, dogs, cats, pigs, rabbits, catfish amongst several other animals as unclean.

I would hold animals such as cows, chickens, bass, goats, sheep (lamb sounds so good), ducks, buffalo amongst others as clean.

Much of the unclean I cited consume their own feces and feces of other animals.  This is a huge reason it grosses me out.  But this is personal (Romans 14:14).   Biblically though, and to not offend, if served one of these animals, I receive in Thanksgiving anyway.

To those who think these are clean animals, then they are clean.  

I just think the scriptures are clear on this.  

For tattoos, God didn't want us to get them in the OT.  Our bodies are referred to as the temple of the holy spirit in the NT.  Why go OUT OF OUR WAY to get a tattoo then?  It does not prevent salvation, but I lean on what I think God wants me to do.

Clean and unclean animals were not a commentary on their grooming or hygene habits, they were designations regarding their ritual suitability for use. The Bible is not saying, if you find animal yucky to eat, then you shouldn't eat them. I don't need divine inspiration that that piece of information. Animals were dividing into clean and unclean as a way of separating from the surrounding people. The same thing with tattoos and with trimming ones beard. They were given to the Jews to separate them from the Canaanites based on the cultural specificities of the day. You can't carry that over to 21st century and say it is the same thing. For example, the reason the Copts get tattoos is BECAUSE they are trying to remain separate from the world around them. I get the feeling that you try so hard to follow the letter of the law, but miss the entire purpose these things were dictated.

What does Romans 14:14 mean?  Please tell me.
St. Paul is writing to the Christian in Rome, most of whom were of Jewish origin. He is telling them that although God has santified all things (food included), if there are people who cannot mentally get passed their ingrained belief in the Jewish law concerning ritually clean and unclean animals and food, then they should not eat the foods that the law deemed unclean because it would harm their conscience. That has nothing to do with whether you personally find a food to be disgusting. It would not, for example, be a proper understanding of this verse for my daughter to tell me that God does not want her to eat her vegetables because she considers them to be yucky and making her eat them would grieve her. A modern day example would be if a Muslim converted to Christianity, but the concept of eating pork was so ingrained into him/her that she could not do so without feeling guilty, it would be appropriate for that individual to abstain from pork even though it is not considered unclean under Christ.

It's ingrained in me the sae way.  I think God instilled in me that eating a dog is unclean.

Look if you want dogburgers or ratburgers, that's fine.  I will find them unclean on a personal level but believe that God cleaned all things. It's merely unclean to me.

Is that such a problem to you?  I don't find anything you eat as you eating unclean, it is just unclean for me to eat certain things on my own.
I don't care at all what you eat or why you eat it. You asked me to explain the passage and I did. If you didn't want me to give an explanation of the passage, then don't ask me.  I do wonder, however, how this is any different than someone who says, I don't have any ingrained resistance to tattoos and the law given to the Jews is not applicable at this time, so therefore I will get a tattoo of a cross as an expression of my Christian faith. Somehow, this has become a problem for you where you feel the need to tell them that they are sinning by getting a tattoo. I know your whole argument about how getting a tattoo is something that you have to go out and proactively do, but that makes no difference in the philosophical discussion of whether a tattoo is inherently wrong or not. You may not want to put a cross on the Holy Spirit's temple that you have, but why tell someone else what they should and should not do.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: sakura95 on November 25, 2014, 05:14:14 PM
Paul's writings are difficult to understand - even to Peter.
2 Peter 3:16
The letters of Paul left a gray area, such as saying "to those who think something is unclean, it is unclean to them".   (but otherwise all things CAN be clean).   Do you eat dog?  Didn't think so..... It left room to spread Jesus Christ through the nations.  In Vietnam, people eat dog.  They don't see it as dirty of gross.  It's clean to them.  Unclean to most of us....  Same with circumcision.  The words clearly spell out this gray area.

Clearly in the New Testament, it talks about your body being the temple of the Holy Spirit.  This means it was designed by God exactly the way he wanted it. To go modify it with a tattoo (of your choice of course) doesn't seem to go with the flow of the New or Old Testament.

I am not Vietnamese but as someone from the same region as Vietnam, I can confirm that they do indeed consume Dog meat. Same as in China and if I'm not mistaken, Korea. But there's more unclean stuff than dog meat that is consumed in the Asian Continent such as the penises of various animals(I'm not making this up, I nearly ate one during a trip to China until my mom told me what it was), pig blood(It has the consistency of pudding and is chocolate in color), various insects( I consumed some of these delicacies on some occasions such as bee larvae in Taiwan and the larvae of some beetle from where I came from), shellfish(Prawns, crabs, jellyfish and anything from the sea without scales), turtles, frogs, snakes....etc

Odd that you have to pick the humble dog meat of all the other odd and "unclean" stuff that inhabitants of the Asian continent consume. I mean why not ask whether we eat the penis of some animal or coagulated wobbly pig blood. Dog meat is simply too ordinary to be mentioned.

Just to be clear I never consumed dog meat throughout my entire life. I can't say the same for the various non scaled creatures of the sea, pig's blood, turtles, frogs, insects...etc though.

If you really want to know the answer, I picked it because most Americans would find dog meat a immoral/gross/nasty/disgusting/ or "not right" thing to do.  This is because most Americans would find such a thing as "unclean" but they would not always say "unclean".

Also if I brought up penises, somebody would just say hot dogs, which have plenty of pork penises and snouts.  So does bologna.  Many here would just think "meh".   So to make the point, I had to mention an animal that most English speakers would be able to see.   Most would think eating a dog is just simply not right.

Yes you are right, there are worse things than dog.

Americans don't find eating Dog meat "unclean". The reason is that many have a form of emotional attachment towards dogs. They are beyond livestock to us they are almost like our companions and we shower them with our love by petting them, taking them for walks, playing with them...etc. With such activities a Dog is beyond livestock. It has become somewhat of a "friend" and nobody would want to kill a friend for the sake of consumption in normal circumstances. Hence, Americans would typically think that eating dog meat is wrong out of compassion and disgust for killing their canine friends not because it is deemed unclean by God or is just "dirty". I mean dog saliva is cleaner than human saliva when you think about it.

Hot Dogs are also just mere minced meat encased by a membrane of the intestinal wall. People here would simply use "hot dogs" in relation to penises as a joke given the very similar shape it takes.

Trust me, livestock can be the SAME way.  I have a goat that is an awesome friend and pal.  It's not about the personality for me.  Besides Romans 14:14 clears this up anyway so...

Attachments towards creatures and objects are only natural. However from an American social standpoint, dogs =/= livestock and therefore it would be wrong to consume it. Human beings have the tendency to "box" things up into various categories and properties. The same with dogs and cows. Besides the forms they take and the noises these two make, society would dictate the dog to be a "pet" and the cow to be "livestock" for consumption. It is not because of hygiene factors or Divine Command that Americans would be revolted at the thought of consuming dog meat.

That is fine.  For me personally as an America and what I know, I do not eat dog because it is gross for me and unclean. 

I do not get tattoos because I believe God doesn't want me to go out of my way and get one, and would rather I respect the temple.

Not getting a tattoo is fine but it doesn't automatically follow that getting or having one is morally wrong or is Sinful. Of course, you can say that you have a disgust for consuming dog meat but if you were born in Vietnam or China you might've said otherwise and who knows, find delight in the sensual pleasure of savoring the flavor and taste of the flesh of dog.

Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Gebre Menfes Kidus on November 25, 2014, 05:29:18 PM
How will the pious abide the heavenly company of tattooed, weed smoking, Rastafarian, pacifist heretics? I imagine that God's grace will make it tolerable for them.  ;)


Selam
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: TheTrisagion on November 25, 2014, 05:45:04 PM
How will the pious abide the heavenly company of tattooed, weed smoking, Rastafarian, pacifist heretics? I imagine that God's grace will make it tolerable for them.  ;)


Selam
The real question is how will the tattooed, weed smoking, Rastafarian, pacifist heretics put up with the pious complainers who are constantly complaining to St. Peter about the second hand smoke.  ;)
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Gebre Menfes Kidus on November 25, 2014, 06:55:40 PM
How will the pious abide the heavenly company of tattooed, weed smoking, Rastafarian, pacifist heretics? I imagine that God's grace will make it tolerable for them.  ;)


Selam
The real question is how will the tattooed, weed smoking, Rastafarian, pacifist heretics put up with the pious complainers who are constantly complaining to St. Peter about the second hand smoke.  ;)

Indeed. I should have included that!


Selam
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Chiere on November 27, 2014, 08:12:04 AM
Quote
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
This is what God said. It is LITERALLY God's words.  The question you must ask yourself is, has God cleansed food? What matter has God not cleansed? When Christ came to reconcile the world to God, what physical matter was exempted from that cleansing?  When you can show me the physical matter that God has not cleansed, then I will consider further your personal interpretation on this passage.

Yep.  It was God's words in Peter's vision that Peter said to the THREE men who were uncommon/unclean.  God did clean!  It was being clean three times of the three men...

Verse 28
28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c24/neon000/2014%20-%202015/553B9548-AF91-447E-BC9D-9E65F421D1EB_zpstc9z1zbh.jpg) (http://s24.photobucket.com/user/neon000/media/2014%20-%202015/553B9548-AF91-447E-BC9D-9E65F421D1EB_zpstc9z1zbh.jpg.html)

You like putting people down, don't you?
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: converted viking on January 28, 2015, 10:04:18 PM
How will the pious abide the heavenly company of tattooed, weed smoking, Rastafarian, pacifist heretics? I imagine that God's grace will make it tolerable for them.  ;)


Selam

Love this ! Can I use this as a tag line in my e-mail?

Viking
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Gebre Menfes Kidus on January 28, 2015, 11:12:01 PM
How will the pious abide the heavenly company of tattooed, weed smoking, Rastafarian, pacifist heretics? I imagine that God's grace will make it tolerable for them.  ;)


Selam

Love this ! Can I use this as a tag line in my e-mail?

Viking

Go for it!  ;)


Selam
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: TheMathematician on January 28, 2015, 11:56:27 PM
Honestly, I used to care about tattoos and think they were stupid, but honestly?

If the only thing a person  has done "wrong" if it is even wrong is to have tattoos, then that person is a much better person and Christian than I am.

Besides that, honestly, lot bigger things to worry about
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Peacemaker on February 01, 2015, 03:16:25 PM
Honestly, I used to care about tattoos and think they were stupid, but honestly?

If the only thing a person  has done "wrong" if it is even wrong is to have tattoos, then that person is a much better person and Christian than I am.

Besides that, honestly, lot bigger things to worry about

I keep mine covered not because I sinned in the past by getting them (which I've repented for) but because I don't want to give the temptation for others to sin by judging me. I know, you might say, "they shouldn't judge you anyway." That's easier said than done. If I can prevent that from happening all together by simply having on longer sleeves on my shirt, good.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Chiere on February 01, 2015, 05:08:50 PM
Honestly, I used to care about tattoos and think they were stupid, but honestly?

If the only thing a person  has done "wrong" if it is even wrong is to have tattoos, then that person is a much better person and Christian than I am.

Besides that, honestly, lot bigger things to worry about

Honestly!?

I concur with that, honestly.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: hecma925 on February 01, 2015, 07:07:41 PM
Honestly, I used to care about tattoos and think they were stupid, but honestly?

If the only thing a person  has done "wrong" if it is even wrong is to have tattoos, then that person is a much better person and Christian than I am.

Besides that, honestly, lot bigger things to worry about

Honestly!?

I concur with that, honestly.

I don't trust anyone who uses the word "honestly".
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on February 01, 2015, 07:25:56 PM
There is a bus driver here named "Honesty," would you trusted her?  ???
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: hecma925 on February 01, 2015, 10:23:56 PM
There is a bus driver here named "Honesty," would you trusted her?  ???

Not her mom.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: hecma925 on February 03, 2015, 12:52:04 PM
(http://www.freetattoodesigns.org/images/russian-orthodox-cross-tattoo.jpg)

Better than straight edge.
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Gebre Menfes Kidus on February 04, 2015, 03:49:28 AM
(http://www.freetattoodesigns.org/images/russian-orthodox-cross-tattoo.jpg)

Better than straight edge.

Nice!

Selam
Title: Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
Post by: Asteriktos on February 22, 2017, 09:26:09 PM