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Moderated Forums => Oriental Orthodox Discussion => Topic started by: The young fogey on November 26, 2003, 12:11:14 PM

Title: Antiochian Orthodox priest canonically transfers to British Orthodox Church
Post by: The young fogey on November 26, 2003, 12:11:14 PM
From nearly a year ago - note the first news item:

News from the British Orthodox Church (http://www.uk-christian.net/boc/108b.shtml)

Quote
Reception of Father David Sennitt

With the permission of His Eminence Metropolitan Gabriel of the Antiochian Orthodox Diocese in Western and Central Europe, Father David Sennitt, a priest of the British Antiochian Orthodox Deanery, was granted a canonical release in order that he could be received into the British Orthodox Church. This took place at the hands of Abba Seraphim at Babingley on 9 February. Father David will serve alongside Father David Seeds at the Church at Cusworth, Doncaster.

Would this board's BOC clergyman like to confirm this story?

I know that the BOC is legitimized now, though it may have been of vagante provenance - it is not Coptic Rite but part of the Coptic Church of Egypt under Pope Shenouda III.

If this story is true, then the schism between the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox is over.
Title: Re:Antiochian Orthodox priest canonically transfers to British Orthodox Church
Post by: Elisha on November 26, 2003, 12:23:38 PM

If this story is true, then the schism between the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox is over.

That sounds a little brash - like putting words in the mouths of all of the other Orthodox Churches.  It just sounds to me like another case of "Intercommuning" per se like what we hear goes on between Antiochians and OO back in the mideast.

Unless it happens to cause some sort of schism, I think it is a positive.  My priest (OCA and on the conservative end) thinks all this talk between EO and OO is for naught though, since he says the OO still refuse to recognize the later Ecumenical Councils and further entrench themselves in their positions.  We'll see.
Title: Re:Antiochian Orthodox priest canonically transfers to British Orthodox Church
Post by: The young fogey on November 26, 2003, 01:19:25 PM
Quote
That sounds a little brash - like putting words in the mouths of all of the other Orthodox Churches.  It just sounds to me like another case of "Intercommuning" per se like what we hear goes on between Antiochians and OO back in the mideast.

But this isn't a case of a priest communing somebody while the bishop looks the other way, as he (the bishop) and his predecessors always have (the way the Middle Eastern churches handle that) - this is an official act of the metropolitan in Britain of the Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch.

Quote
Unless it happens to cause some sort of schism, I think it is a positive.  My priest (OCA and on the conservative end) thinks all this talk between EO and OO is for naught though, since he says the OO still refuse to recognize the later Ecumenical Councils and further entrench themselves in their positions.  We'll see.

I think it's positive too.
Title: Re:Antiochian Orthodox priest canonically transfers to British Orthodox Church
Post by: Elisha on November 26, 2003, 01:34:51 PM
Quote
That sounds a little brash - like putting words in the mouths of all of the other Orthodox Churches.  It just sounds to me like another case of "Intercommuning" per se like what we hear goes on between Antiochians and OO back in the mideast.

But this isn't a case of a priest communing somebody while the bishop looks the other way, as he (the bishop) and his predecessors always have (the way the Middle Eastern churches handle that) - this is an official act of the metropolitan in Britain of the Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch.


I understand, but it's still just an anecdote - not some new official policy.  Of course precendent can mean a lot.
Title: Re:Antiochian Orthodox priest canonically transfers to British Orthodox Church
Post by: Linus7 on November 27, 2003, 12:48:29 AM
I can think of some people who won't be happy about it.

Or maybe they will . . . schadenfreudeweise

More grist for the mill.
Title: Re:Antiochian Orthodox priest canonically transfers to British Orthodox Church
Post by: Αριστοκλής on November 27, 2003, 01:33:16 AM
From nearly a year ago - note the first news item:

With the permission of His Eminence Metropolitan Gabriel of the Antiochian Orthodox Diocese in Western and Central Europe, Father David Sennitt, a priest of the British Antiochian Orthodox Deanery, was granted a canonical release in order that he could be received into the British Orthodox Church...

If this story is true, then the schism between the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox is over.

Serge,
As much as I would like to see this schism over, I just can't read this event in this way.
The priest gave his bishop the courtesy of asking for a 'release' prior to being 'received' into another church.
I wish that it meant more, but it probably does not.

Demetri
Title: Re:Antiochian Orthodox priest canonically transfers to British Orthodox Church
Post by: The young fogey on November 27, 2003, 11:18:19 AM
Quote
As much as I would like to see this schism over, I just can't read this event in this way.
The priest gave his bishop the courtesy of asking for a 'release' prior to being 'received' into another church.
I wish that it meant more, but it probably does not.

But I thought that Orthodox bishops only give priests 'releases' if the priests are going to other Orthodox bishops. Somebody going to a non-Orthodox group wouldn't get a 'release'; he'd be deposed, right? So ISTM the BOC is claiming the Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch recognizes it (part of the Coptic Church and the Oriental Orthodox communion) as equal to the Eastern Orthodox churches.

Most significant.
Title: Re:Antiochian Orthodox priest canonically transfers to British Orthodox Church
Post by: SamB on November 27, 2003, 01:11:04 PM
A very remarkable occurence if it is indeed true--and one with huge implications.  Is this perhaps a sign of a 'Zoghby Initiative' (t.m.) on the part of the Antiochians, which, as was the case of our own with the Orthodox, involves close cooperation and breakthrough decisions or propositions between two individual member Churches of two communions without consultation with other members?  More to the point, in the case of the Orientals, wouldn't the most logical partner to make such an overture of 'dual communion' to be the Surianis rather than the Copts?

An unusual development indeed, it strongly captures one's interest.  Will this be followed by another similiar event, I wonder?  I think the best authority in this forum on this matter is Dimitrius.  I invite him to contribute with his comments.

In IC XC
Samer
Title: Re:Antiochian Orthodox priest canonically transfers to British Orthodox Church
Post by: Father Peter on December 02, 2003, 07:01:11 PM
Quote
But I thought that Orthodox bishops only give priests 'releases' if the priests are going to other Orthodox bishops. Somebody going to a non-Orthodox group wouldn't get a 'release'; he'd be deposed, right? So ISTM the BOC is claiming the Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch recognizes it (part of the Coptic Church and the Oriental Orthodox communion) as equal to the Eastern Orthodox churches.

Hi

I don't think we, the BOC, are claiming anything on behalf of the Antiocheans in the UK. I guess they need to speak for themselves. You must remember that 10 years ago there were many people from many backgrounds seeking after Orthodoxy. I myself was received into Orthodoxy a couple of weeks after Pentecost in 1994 when the BOC had been united with the COP and it seemed that God was making a plain path for me to follow. I had also been interested in the Pilgrimage To Orthodoxy activity led by the Antiocheans.

Father David Sennitt has been a good friend of and to the BOC for many years. He chose to enter the Antiochean Church 10 years ago. Circumstances change and he now has a home and ministry among the BOC.

It was only right and proper that Father David should seek a canonical release, I guess it was gracious of +Gabriel to provide one, but he also knows my own +Seraphim. Since it is clear to anyone that knows us well that we do not confess any heresy, and certainly Father David has not suddenly become a heretic in the time I have known him, it seems only reasonable from a human level that a canonical release should be provided.

I think it shows that at ground-level there are a great many changes taking place, and many things which it is best not to mention, but people who know each other and respect each other know whether the other professes a heresy or not.

So it is important but not of universal application. Elsewhere things might pan out completely differently. We have quite a few Eastern Orthodox in our churches, just as Eastern Orthodox often have isolated Ethiopians or Eritreans. On the ground there is more reconciliation than is obvious.

My bishop is a guest at the Phanar most years now when he visits the Armenian Patriarch Mesrob II. Of course this willl just prove the faults in the EP in some eyes, but it doesn't actually take too many questions and too long to find out if someone is a Nestorian or a Eutychian. And if they are not then it is surely sin to act as if they are.

Seeking your prayers

Peter Theodore
Subdeacon
Title: Re:Antiochian Orthodox priest canonically transfers to British Orthodox Church
Post by: Mexican on December 04, 2003, 02:53:07 PM
Can you please explain me about the "British Orthodox Church"? From what you have been posting I have seen they're part of the Coptic Church but the name "British Orthodox Church" is some kind of confusing (many sects call themselves british or celtic orthodox, or "american" orthodox or anything like that).

In my country for example, the Orthodox Churches are recognizable "Syrian-Antiochian Orthodox Church of Mexico", "Exarchate of Mexico-Orthodox Church in America", "Greek Orthodox Archbishophric of Mexico". I don't think people call themselves "Mexican Orthodox" for example.

Is this British Orthodox Church using a "Western Rite"? What is their relationship with the Coptic Church and its Patriarchate?

Title: Re:Antiochian Orthodox priest canonically transfers to British Orthodox Church
Post by: Jonathan on December 04, 2003, 07:39:27 PM
The British Orthodox Church was received into the Coptic Orthodox Church.  H.H. Pope Shenouda ordained Anba Seraphim as a metropolitan, and he ordained all the priests to the next rank, or something like that.  They use the Liturgy of St. James.  The website is here: http://www.uk-christian.net/boc/
Title: Re:Antiochian Orthodox priest canonically transfers to British Orthodox Church
Post by: TonyS on December 04, 2003, 09:04:37 PM
Friends,

What does "- it is not Coptic Rite but part of the Coptic Church of Egypt under Pope Shenouda III" mean?  

Also, I have heard on occasion of bishops "releasing" priests to Churches with which they are not in communion.  So, I heard of a ROCOR priest blessed by his bishop to enter the AOC.  Also, a UGC deacon that was blessed by his bishop to enter the OCA.  Perhaps the term "realease" is being applied here a bit liberally and means rather that he left on good terms?

TonyS
Title: Re:Antiochian Orthodox priest canonically transfers to British Orthodox Church
Post by: Jonathan on December 04, 2003, 09:09:11 PM
"What does "- it is not Coptic Rite but part of the Coptic Church of Egypt under Pope Shenouda III" mean?"

It means that the BOC is a part of the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate, Pope Shenouda is thier patriarch, but they don't use the same Liturgy as we do.  They use the Liturgy of St. James, traditional English Communion hymns, etc.
Title: Re:Antiochian Orthodox priest canonically transfers to British Orthodox Church
Post by: TonyS on December 04, 2003, 09:10:31 PM
"What does "- it is not Coptic Rite but part of the Coptic Church of Egypt under Pope Shenouda III" mean?"

It means that the BOC is a part of the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate, Pope Shenouda is thier patriarch, but they don't use the same Liturgy as we do, they use the Liturgy of St. James, traditional English Communion hymns, etc.

So they have their own liturgical tradition which is neither Western nor Coptic?
Title: Re:Antiochian Orthodox priest canonically transfers to British Orthodox Church
Post by: Mor Ephrem on December 04, 2003, 09:37:10 PM
I am not sure which Saint James they use--the Syriac or the Greek?
Title: Re:Antiochian Orthodox priest canonically transfers to British Orthodox Church
Post by: Mexican on December 04, 2003, 11:29:46 PM
Is it a living liturgy and rite or another "archeological" restauration restauration such as the "Celtic" rite?
Title: Re:Antiochian Orthodox priest canonically transfers to British Orthodox Church
Post by: Father Peter on December 05, 2003, 04:57:53 AM
We use the Greek St James for our liturgy and all of the other Coptic services for everything else. We do also use the ancient Orthodox Western hymns on occasion and of course we venerate our own Orthodox Western saints as well as those of the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate and those of the Universal Church.

We are a constituent church of the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate. Our Metropolitan attends the Holy Synod meetings and many of our folk have been to Egypt.

The Orthodox Church of Finland is part of the Ecumenical Patriarchate but it has its own Scandinavian ethos as far as I can see which is not wholly Greek or Russian. In the same way we cannot be Egyptians, and Pope Shenouda has insisted that we should not be. We are British people in the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate with a mission to British people.

Oriental Orthodoxy is used to diversity. It is, after all, part of the Orthodox faith and praxis. Even in the West before the forced uniformity of liturgy there was great diversity within the Churches in the Roman Patriarchate.

Uniformity is not the same as unity.

Seeking your prayers

Peter Theodore
Title: Re:Antiochian Orthodox priest canonically transfers to British Orthodox Church
Post by: Father Peter on December 05, 2003, 05:07:15 AM
Can you please explain me about the "British Orthodox Church"? From what you have been posting I have seen they're part of the Coptic Church but the name "British Orthodox Church" is some kind of confusing (many sects call themselves british or celtic orthodox, or "american" orthodox or anything like that).

In my country for example, the Orthodox Churches are recognizable "Syrian-Antiochian Orthodox Church of Mexico", "Exarchate of Mexico-Orthodox Church in America", "Greek Orthodox Archbishophric of Mexico". I don't think people call themselves "Mexican Orthodox" for example.

Is this British Orthodox Church using a "Western Rite"? What is their relationship with the Coptic Church and its Patriarchate?

Well we are British and we are Orthodox so I'm not sure what else we should call ourselves? We always state that we are members of the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate, but we are not Egyptians, and our mission is to bring Orthodoxy to British people.

Do you not have some unnecessary difficulties in being a Greek Church in Mexico? Don't Mexicans ask 'what has this got to do with me?'. Isn't the aim surely to be a 'Mexican Orthodox Church' in the end? Surely that is how Greek and Russian and Coptic Orthodoxy began, otherwise we would all be called the Palestinian Orthodox Church of Egypt, or the Palestinian Orthodox Church of Russia, or even the Palestinian Orthodox Church of Greece in Mexico. :-)

The Orthodox Church of Finland website does not mention Greek or Russian Orthodoxy on its front page. They are Finnish Orthodox people in a Finnish Orthodox Church. I think we follow the same model.

Seeking your prayers

Peter Theodore
Title: Re:Antiochian Orthodox priest canonically transfers to British Orthodox Church
Post by: Mor Ephrem on December 05, 2003, 10:56:21 AM
POCOGIM...now there's an acronym.
Title: Re:Antiochian Orthodox priest canonically transfers to British Orthodox Church
Post by: Byzantino on December 06, 2003, 06:40:07 AM
Quote
Well we are British and we are Orthodox so I'm not sure what else we should call ourselves? We always state that we are members of the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate, but we are not Egyptians, and our mission is to bring Orthodoxy to British people.
Quote

Very well stated. If only this were the norm.

Byzantino

Title: Re: Antiochian Orthodox priest canonically transfers to British Orthodox Church
Post by: mattymoo on November 07, 2010, 09:11:38 PM
I see the last reply to this thread was made quite some time ago. I am curious as to the current status of the British Orthodox Church. I am also curious as to why the BOC chose to join communion with the Coptic Patriarch/Pope and not any of the other possible jurisdictions available in Western Europe?
Title: Re: Antiochian Orthodox priest canonically transfers to British Orthodox Church
Post by: Schultz on November 07, 2010, 09:16:33 PM
I see the last reply to this thread was made quite some time ago. I am curious as to the current status of the British Orthodox Church. I am also curious as to why the BOC chose to join communion with the Coptic Patriarch/Pope and not any of the other possible jurisdictions available in Western Europe?

You can read more about the history of the BOC at their website (http://britishorthodox.org/aboutus/), but that church has its roots in the mid-19th century work of a French-Dominican-cum-Coptic-bishop. 
Title: Re: Antiochian Orthodox priest canonically transfers to British Orthodox Church
Post by: mattymoo on November 07, 2010, 09:22:33 PM
I see the last reply to this thread was made quite some time ago. I am curious as to the current status of the British Orthodox Church. I am also curious as to why the BOC chose to join communion with the Coptic Patriarch/Pope and not any of the other possible jurisdictions available in Western Europe?

You can read more about the history of the BOC at their website (http://britishorthodox.org/aboutus/), but that church has its roots in the mid-19th century work of a French-Dominican-cum-Coptic-bishop. 

Oh, well that's understandable I suppose.  :)
Title: Re: Antiochian Orthodox priest canonically transfers to British Orthodox Church
Post by: Seafra on November 11, 2010, 07:35:41 PM
I see the last reply to this thread was made quite some time ago. I am curious as to the current status of the British Orthodox Church. I am also curious as to why the BOC chose to join communion with the Coptic Patriarch/Pope and not any of the other possible jurisdictions available in Western Europe?

You can read more about the history of the BOC at their website (http://britishorthodox.org/aboutus/), but that church has its roots in the mid-19th century work of a French-Dominican-cum-Coptic-bishop. 

Oh, well that's understandable I suppose.  :)
I believe they chose to ask the copts because the original celtic church was greatly influenced by the desert fathers to the point that it stood out from the other western churches at that time. Monasticism also had a great and major impact on the church in Ireland. I hope to convert into this church when I move to Ireland
Title: Re: Antiochian Orthodox priest canonically transfers to British Orthodox Church
Post by: mattymoo on November 11, 2010, 09:36:18 PM
I believe they chose to ask the copts because the original celtic church was greatly influenced by the desert fathers to the point that it stood out from the other western churches at that time. Monasticism also had a great and major impact on the church in Ireland. I hope to convert into this church when I move to Ireland

I have read - somewhere, sorry I cannot cite it - that an early Christian authority (A pope or Bishop perhaps?) inquired from a Christian who had been to Ireland what their music sounded like and he responded that it sounded very similar to the music used by Egyptian Christians during the same period.
Title: Re: Antiochian Orthodox priest canonically transfers to British Orthodox Church
Post by: deusveritasest on November 22, 2010, 08:10:03 PM
Ack.  :(
Title: Re:Antiochian Orthodox priest canonically transfers to British Orthodox Church
Post by: Irish Hermit on April 05, 2011, 12:46:58 AM
Father Peter,

Communications from people in the Russian Orthodox Church in the UK say that Fr David Sennittt is back in the Eastern Orthodox Church?  Have you had news of this?
Title: Re:Antiochian Orthodox priest canonically transfers to British Orthodox Church
Post by: Severian on September 03, 2011, 06:13:20 PM
Father Peter,

Communications from people in the Russian Orthodox Church in the UK say that Fr David Sennittt is back in the Eastern Orthodox Church?  Have you had news of this?
I think I remember Fr. Peter answering 'yes' to this question.  :)
Title: Re:Antiochian Orthodox priest canonically transfers to British Orthodox Church
Post by: Irish Hermit on September 03, 2011, 06:33:53 PM
Father Peter,

Communications from people in the Russian Orthodox Church in the UK say that Fr David Sennittt is back in the Eastern Orthodox Church?  Have you had news of this?
I think I remember Fr. Peter answering 'yes' to this question.  :)

Oddly enough he came up in despatches from New York a few days ago.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Antiochian Orthodox priest canonically transfers to British Orthodox Church
Post by: Severian on September 03, 2011, 06:41:32 PM
^Out of curiosity, how did the Russian Clergymen react to his transfer to the BOC? I ask because the Russian Church seems to be one of the most conservative when it comes to the OO. Thanks.
Title: Re: Antiochian Orthodox priest canonically transfers to British Orthodox Church
Post by: Irish Hermit on September 03, 2011, 06:49:55 PM
^Out of curiosity, how did the Russian Clergymen react to his transfer to the BOC? I ask because the Russian Church seems to be one of the most conservative when it comes to the OO. Thanks.

Probably Father Peter, being on the spot, has better information.
Title: Re: Antiochian Orthodox priest canonically transfers to British Orthodox Church
Post by: Aidan on September 04, 2011, 10:47:13 AM
He's listed on the (British) Antiochian Deanery website with contact details. You could ask him yourself.
He was at the recent Deanery conference so I assume he's Antiochian.
Title: Re: Antiochian Orthodox priest canonically transfers to British Orthodox Church
Post by: Irish Hermit on September 04, 2011, 12:13:50 PM
Double posting.
Title: Re: Antiochian Orthodox priest canonically transfers to British Orthodox Church
Post by: Irish Hermit on September 04, 2011, 12:18:09 PM
He's listed on the (British) Antiochian Deanery website with contact details. You could ask him yourself.
He was at the recent Deanery conference so I assume he's Antiochian.

It is not the sort of thing I would do unless there were a need.

Besides, I doubt he would welcome the question which was suggested above in message 29.  It would be seen as intrusive.
Title: Re: Antiochian Orthodox priest canonically transfers to British Orthodox Church
Post by: Father Peter on September 05, 2011, 05:10:35 PM
The Russians have had more than enough problems of their own in recent years in the UK to be concerned, I would imagine, about the whereabouts of a priest who was not part of their own jurisdiction.

Indeed most Churches have more than enough problems of their own not to need worrying about other people's priests!  :)

Since the priest in question had a canonical release from his Antiochian bishop I am not sure that any great problems were likely to arise.