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Moderated Forums => Liturgy => Western Rite Discussion => Topic started by: simplygermain on July 13, 2009, 08:05:47 PM

Title: Is the St. Germanus Liturgy "Canonically" Practiced anywhere?
Post by: simplygermain on July 13, 2009, 08:05:47 PM
I asked myself this today, unfortunately I did not answer myself... :D
Title: Re: Is the St. Germanus Liturgy "Canonically" Practiced anywhere?
Post by: Entscheidungsproblem on July 13, 2009, 08:12:45 PM
Yup.  After the whole Orthodox Church of France fiasco, various parishes left it and now fall under the jurisdiction of the Romanian Church and Serbian Church.  ROCA views it as an approved Liturgy (due to the efforts of St. John Maximovitch) as well, but I am not sure if it is celebrated anywhere.
Title: Re: Is the St. Germanus Liturgy "Canonically" Practiced anywhere?
Post by: simplygermain on July 13, 2009, 08:14:42 PM
Where within the Serbian Church? In the States at all?
Title: Re: Is the St. Germanus Liturgy "Canonically" Practiced anywhere?
Post by: Entscheidungsproblem on July 13, 2009, 08:17:49 PM
Canonically, I don't believe it has left France.  Personally I think it would be great to bring to Quebec, but what do I know.   :P
Title: Re: Is the St. Germanus Liturgy "Canonically" Practiced anywhere?
Post by: ialmisry on July 13, 2009, 08:25:22 PM
Canonically, I don't believe it has left France.  Personally I think it would be great to bring to Quebec, but what do I know.   :P

I thought the same thing when I was in Quebec.  But then I thought the same thing was I was in Southern Illinois (where there are several French sites, including the first capital Kaskaskia/Kaskaskie, which remains only the bell given by le Roi Louis, the French mission parish (with its altar a gift again of the king), and the French Lieutenant Governor's house), St. Genevieve, MO, and of course, Louisiana.
Title: Re: Is the St. Germanus Liturgy "Canonically" Practiced anywhere?
Post by: simplygermain on July 13, 2009, 08:29:39 PM
Are the (ecof - i might have the abbreviation wrong - sorry) French Church in communion with anyone else? I know they celebrate this liturgy.
Title: Re: Is the St. Germanus Liturgy "Canonically" Practiced anywhere?
Post by: Entscheidungsproblem on July 13, 2009, 08:34:42 PM
Are the (ecof - i might have the abbreviation wrong - sorry) French Church in communion with anyone else? I know they celebrate this liturgy.

Nope.  They have in the past been under Russia, then ROCA, then Romania and therefore in Communion with the Canonical Churches for periods of time.  But since the early 90s they have been on their own and schisming every once in a while (UACORO and l'EOG).
Title: Re: Is the St. Germanus Liturgy "Canonically" Practiced anywhere?
Post by: simplygermain on July 13, 2009, 08:53:22 PM
A schismatic church is like a broken shard of glass I guess. Everytime there is a stir and a grumble, the shard continues to chip and chip until time erodes it away -
Title: Re: Is the St. Germanus Liturgy "Canonically" Practiced anywhere?
Post by: mike on July 14, 2009, 07:30:16 AM
Yup.  After the whole Orthodox Church of France fiasco, various parishes left it and now fall under the jurisdiction of the Romanian Church and Serbian Church.  ROCA views it as an approved Liturgy (due to the efforts of St. John Maximovitch) as well, but I am not sure if it is celebrated anywhere.

Only by Serbians in France. AFAIK Romanians currently do not have any WRO Parishes neither in France, nor somewhere else.
Title: Re: Is the St. Germanus Liturgy "Canonically" Practiced anywhere?
Post by: Subdeacon Michael on March 26, 2018, 04:56:40 AM
A schismatic church is like a broken shard of glass I guess. Everytime there is a stir and a grumble, the shard continues to chip and chip until time erodes it away -

That's an unfortunately uncharitable approach.

The ECOF was abandoned by the Romanian church in 1993.  At that time, the members of ECOF did not know what to do and suddenly found themselves isolated after nearly a quarter of a century of continuous communion with the wider Orthodox world.  It was during this period of imposed isolation and confusion that irregularities found their way into the life of ECOF, and in 1995 the bishop secretly married.

These schisms that you mention only happened because the churches that broke away from ECOF were seeking to preserve their Orthodox life after this marriage was revealed in 1997.

However, they have not further chipped and chipped.  There were three groups that left ECOF after the news about Bishop Germain: one  remained under the Romanian church, one joined the Serbian church, and the third joined the Coptic church.

The third group was conned by the Coptic bishop in France to believe that they would be allowed to retain the Western Rite, and they were received with that understanding.  Then he told them a few years later that they were using the Western Rite without permission (despite letters granting permission in his own handwriting), and that they had to adopt the Coptic rite or face suspension.  They did not want to leave the Coptic church so they petitioned Pope Shenouda for assistance but they were ignored.

So they reluctantly withdrew from the Coptic church, but they did not split and split.  Instead, they came together and formed the EOG, and united with the former Old Calendarist church in France and the former mission of the Syriac church.  This communion has remained stable for over a decade now and has grown numerically and spiritually - glory to God!  So it seems that the problem in each case - Moscow Patriarchate, ROCOR, Romanian church, Coptic church - was not any divisive attitude on the part of the Western Rite people but rather the desire by the parent church to stifle the Western Rite.
Title: Re: Is the St. Germanus Liturgy "Canonically" Practiced anywhere?
Post by: WPM on March 26, 2018, 08:38:37 AM
If you have Outdoors Liturgy then it can be anywhere.
Title: Re: Is the St. Germanus Liturgy "Canonically" Practiced anywhere?
Post by: Iconodule on March 26, 2018, 09:13:07 AM
A schismatic church is like a broken shard of glass I guess. Everytime there is a stir and a grumble, the shard continues to chip and chip until time erodes it away -

That's an unfortunately uncharitable approach.

The ECOF was abandoned by the Romanian church in 1993.  At that time, the members of ECOF did not know what to do and suddenly found themselves isolated after nearly a quarter of a century of continuous communion with the wider Orthodox world.  It was during this period of imposed isolation and confusion that irregularities found their way into the life of ECOF, and in 1995 the bishop secretly married.

These schisms that you mention only happened because the churches that broke away from ECOF were seeking to preserve their Orthodox life after this marriage was revealed in 1997.

However, they have not further chipped and chipped.  There were three groups that left ECOF after the news about Bishop Germain: one  remained under the Romanian church, one joined the Serbian church, and the third joined the Coptic church.

The third group was conned by the Coptic bishop in France to believe that they would be allowed to retain the Western Rite, and they were received with that understanding.  Then he told them a few years later that they were using the Western Rite without permission (despite letters granting permission in his own handwriting), and that they had to adopt the Coptic rite or face suspension.  They did not want to leave the Coptic church so they petitioned Pope Shenouda for assistance but they were ignored.

So they reluctantly withdrew from the Coptic church, but they did not split and split.  Instead, they came together and formed the EOG, and united with the former Old Calendarist church in France and the former mission of the Syriac church.  This communion has remained stable for over a decade now and has grown numerically and spiritually - glory to God!  So it seems that the problem in each case - Moscow Patriarchate, ROCOR, Romanian church, Coptic church - was not any divisive attitude on the part of the Western Rite people but rather the desire by the parent church to stifle the Western Rite.

It's a shame that things developed this way. I hope one of our churches has the good sense to re-establish communion with you on a fair basis.
Title: Re: Is the St. Germanus Liturgy "Canonically" Practiced anywhere?
Post by: WPM on March 26, 2018, 09:53:16 AM
Canonically, I don't believe it has left France.  Personally I think it would be great to bring to Quebec, but what do I know.   :P

I thought the same thing when I was in Quebec.  But then I thought the same thing was I was in Southern Illinois (where there are several French sites, including the first capital Kaskaskia/Kaskaskie, which remains only the bell given by le Roi Louis, the French mission parish (with its altar a gift again of the king), and the French Lieutenant Governor's house), St. Genevieve, MO, and of course, Louisiana.

Must be something Canadian.
Title: Re: Is the St. Germanus Liturgy "Canonically" Practiced anywhere?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on March 26, 2018, 01:17:18 PM
There is a Church in Des Moines, Iowa, under the canonical jurisdiction of ROCOR, which practices the Saint Germanus Liturgy.

It's called "Saint John the Wonderworker," and they serve it at "Saint Mark's Episcopal Church."

Here's a video of their Epiclesis hymn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_aj_Nrwoo4

I believe it's the only canonical Germanus Liturgy practiced in North America.

Their website:
http://stjohndsm.org/