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Moderated Forums => Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion => Orthodox-Protestant Discussion => Topic started by: Orthodox Wannabe on June 05, 2008, 01:51:53 AM

Title: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: Orthodox Wannabe on June 05, 2008, 01:51:53 AM
So back in the day particularly during the Oxford movement relations between Orthodoxy and Anglicanism were fairly cordial. What is the state of the relations today since Anglicanism has embraced the woman Priest garbage and all the other "things" that are part of the Episcopal Church these days.
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: buzuxi on June 05, 2008, 02:43:50 AM
They are still cordial and they (the anglicans) are still NOT Orthodox. Never were,never will.
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: Riddikulus on June 05, 2008, 04:54:18 AM
the woman Priest garbage and all the other "things" that are part of the Episcopal Church these days.

 ??? I'm sure you don't mean this to sound so disrespectful to our Anglican forum members.
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: Αριστοκλής on June 05, 2008, 04:58:33 AM
Perhaps you'd prefer he re-word the post but express the same thing? By not defining "things" I thought him polite actually.
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: ozgeorge on June 05, 2008, 06:25:59 AM
Women Priest are going to happen in the Orthodox Church. It's just a matter of time and generations passing.
I wouldn't use it as a line in the sand for anything.
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: ialmisry on June 05, 2008, 06:31:33 AM
Women Priest are going to happen in the Orthodox Church. It's just a matter of time and generations passing.
I wouldn't use it as a line in the sand for anything.

Doubt it, but my question for the conservative Anglicans has been that many in there church have been denying the Resurrection, and yet remaining "priests," (and then there is "bishop" Spong), but they swallowed that.  Women priests are the breaking point?
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: Fr. George on June 05, 2008, 07:10:23 AM
Doubt it, but my question for the conservative Anglicans has been that many in there church have been denying the Resurrection, and yet remaining "priests," (and then there is "bishop" Spong), but they swallowed that.  Women priests are the breaking point?

I was just thinking the same thing.  Thanks for bringing it up.
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: Αριστοκλής on June 05, 2008, 07:31:49 AM
Women Priest are going to happen in the Orthodox Church. It's just a matter of time and generations passing.
I wouldn't use it as a line in the sand for anything.
GreekisChristian II
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: PeterTheAleut on June 05, 2008, 08:21:54 AM
GreekisChristian II
Now, that's not fair! ;)  Ordination of women was certainly one of GiC's pet issues, but that doesn't make any other posters who advocate women's ordination even close to anything like GiC.  LOL! :D
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: AMM on June 05, 2008, 09:46:06 AM
Never say never....

http://www.ocl.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=AboutUs.ReflectionsRecommendations&CFID=114051198&CFTOKEN=15407403
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: Rosehip on June 05, 2008, 10:27:10 AM
Women Priest are going to happen in the Orthodox Church. It's just a matter of time and generations passing.
I wouldn't use it as a line in the sand for anything.

Why do you say this, ozgeorge? I was under the impression that this is something we stand firmly against as Orthodox Christians! It gives a sense of legitimacy and changelessness to the Church.
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: Entscheidungsproblem on June 05, 2008, 10:29:20 AM
Why do you say this, ozgeorge? I was under the impression that is is something we stand firmly against as Orthodox Christians!

You will find ozgeorge is more progressive with certain issues than others.    :P
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: SolEX01 on June 05, 2008, 10:34:39 AM
Women Priest are going to happen in the Orthodox Church. It's just a matter of time and generations passing.
I wouldn't use it as a line in the sand for anything.

Only if there were women priests during the Old Testament priesthood.   :)
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: AMM on June 05, 2008, 11:04:31 AM
http://www.archons.org/news/detail.asp?id=234
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: Αριστοκλής on June 05, 2008, 11:25:17 AM
Never say never....

http://www.ocl.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=AboutUs.ReflectionsRecommendations&CFID=114051198&CFTOKEN=15407403

There is not much, if anything, I take seriously from the OCL. And Dr. Elisabeth Behr-Sigel is nothing but an liberal agitator who wants an Episcopal Orthodox Church.
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: PeterTheAleut on June 05, 2008, 12:29:31 PM
It gives a sense of legitimacy and changelessness to the Church.
As opposed to what?
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: zebu on June 05, 2008, 12:30:54 PM
They are still cordial and they (the anglicans) are still NOT Orthodox. Never were,never will.
Pretty sure I was once Anglican and am now Orthodox.
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: Orthodox11 on June 05, 2008, 12:37:13 PM
I could certainly see the ordination of women being accepted by certain local churches under the guidance of another Meletios-type figure, for whom schism was a price worth paying for progressiveness.

Then again, there seems to be a general movement towards a more ascetic ideal (not necessarily in practice - fasting, for example, rarely occurs even among clergy - but there is a reverence for it), which would make such an occurrance unlikely as long as there remained strong and visible monastic communities á la Athos.

One can also look at the Roman Catholic Church, whose reforms have at times been more radical than some Protestant groups, and who are pressured by reformers like no other, yet have managed to retain a male priesthood.
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: Rosehip on June 05, 2008, 01:05:20 PM
As opposed to what?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this question. I thought it was our very refusal to change despite the whims of popular christianity that shows that we indeed have something to offer, and helps  provide proof that we are indeed the original and true church (at least that's what I've been told over and over again). But I'm not here to argue the point at all-I was simply  taken by surprise because I've never heard an Orthodox person speaking favourably of female priests, that's all.
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: Asteriktos on June 05, 2008, 01:10:46 PM
Quote
So back in the day particularly during the Oxford movement relations between Orthodoxy and Anglicanism were fairly cordial. What is the state of the relations today since Anglicanism has embraced the woman Priest garbage and all the other "things" that are part of the Episcopal Church these days.

They're still cordial. You mostly hear about the Ecumenical Patriarch having meetings with them, though others might also have such talks.
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: Αριστοκλής on June 05, 2008, 02:36:49 PM
I could certainly see the ordination of women being accepted by certain local churches under the guidance of another Meletios-type figure, for whom schism was a price worth paying for progressiveness.
::) The M-Bomb makes any opinion valid...not.

Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: lubeltri on June 05, 2008, 03:11:20 PM
One can also look at the Roman Catholic Church, whose reforms have at times been more radical than some Protestant groups, and who are pressured by reformers like no other, yet have managed to retain a male priesthood.

Yeah, Rome just last week reiterated the excommunication of all those involved in attempted* ordinations of women---both the "ordainers" and the "ordained."

*John Paul II, Ordinatio Sacerdotalis (1994): "Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful."
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: buzuxi on June 05, 2008, 04:17:13 PM
If the Orthodox church accepts females into the priesthood then it no longer is orthodox and will have severed itself from the Body of Christ, if you see this run away from it and towards the Orthodox church.
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: ytterbiumanalyst on June 05, 2008, 04:34:54 PM
^ But if we accept women, we should be okay. Right?
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: buzuxi on June 05, 2008, 04:46:49 PM
^ But if we accept women, we should be okay. Right?

them too! Nuns as well. Hermaphrodites, maybe we can debate :)
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: ozgeorge on June 05, 2008, 06:25:31 PM
It gives a sense of legitimacy and changelessness to the Church.
...like Communing of the Body in the hand and the Blood from the chalice, but now, with a spoon.....
...like Deaconesses being banned and now re-introduced.....
...like women covering their heads in church and now not so in many Churches (in contravention of Scripture)....
...like monks being beardless and tonsured with the papalethra, but now grrowing beards and long hair (in contravention of Scripture)........

"For the times they are a changing...." ;)
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: ozgeorge on June 05, 2008, 06:38:45 PM
Lets keep this thread on topic now, and for those of you who have the interest in the subject of Women's Ordination in the Orthodox Church (and lots of time on your hands to read). there is a rather lengthy thread on the subject here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,8894.0.html
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: Orthodox Wannabe on June 05, 2008, 07:42:30 PM
Perhaps you'd prefer he re-word the post but express the same thing? By not defining "things" I thought him polite actually.

That was my intent. My Priest a Greek Orthodox before he retired called the Episcopal Church in the US a "gnostic sect with women dressing up and playing Priest." I think that was less polite than things.
What I refered to by "things" was the fact that you don't need to believe in the bodily resurection or the virgin birth or any of the ancient creeds to be considered a good episcopalian.
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: Orthodox Wannabe on June 05, 2008, 07:46:27 PM
Women Priest are going to happen in the Orthodox Church. It's just a matter of time and generations passing.
I wouldn't use it as a line in the sand for anything.

Are you serious?
 I had always understood the Orthodox Church to be Orthodox. If it ordains women it will not only be not Orthodox but just another protestant sect.

Is womens "ordination" being discussed by the Orthodox Church? Maybe I should rethink my conversion to "Orthodoxy".
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: Orthodox Wannabe on June 05, 2008, 07:48:22 PM
??? I'm sure you don't mean this to sound so disrespectful to our Anglican forum members.

No I didn't. From all the Episcopal church members I have spoke to they think this "progressive" stuff is their greatest asset.
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: Orthodox Wannabe on June 05, 2008, 07:53:09 PM
To get back to topic. I was just wondering because I had thought by some things that I have read that during the late 1800's the Anglican's and Orthodox had lots of diologue and this helped to bring about the western rite. And I was just curious as to how things were going now days because of these changes in Anglicanism.

As an aside I have LOTS of respect for traditional High Church Anglicans. Much more Catholic now days then the Catholic Church, or at least they were in the 19th and early 20th centuries.
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: Asteriktos on June 05, 2008, 07:55:57 PM
Quote
Is womens "ordination" being discussed by the Orthodox Church? Maybe I should rethink my conversion to "Orthodoxy".

Certain people, such as Bp. Kallistos, say that we should talk about it rather than running away from the issue. There isn't really a large movement for the ordination of women in the Orthodox Church.
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: cascott1 on June 05, 2008, 10:19:51 PM
I don't know much about the big picture, but I can say that OCF at my university meets at the Episcopal parish that I attend.  It's going well so far.  :)
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: buzuxi on June 05, 2008, 10:34:53 PM
That Orthodox were close to the Anglicans is a myth. Dont mistake liturgical abuses especially ones during a  heretical patriarch to mean some sort of closeness to another religion. There is only One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic church, others are fallen away, "closeness" doesnt help them.
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: prodromas on June 05, 2008, 10:39:10 PM
I don't know much about the big picture, but I can say that OCF at my university meets at the Episcopal parish that I attend.  It's going well so far.  :)

First of all welcome cascott1 to OC.net :D I hope OCF is doing great work on your campus. Secondly I think a lot of Orthodox have a misunderstanding of Anglicanism and Episcopalianism to the point that borders on primitive fear. I decided to study about the church cleared up my misunderstandings about it and can assure you that the high church tradition is closer to Orthodox ecclesiology and theology is closer than our Roman Catholic brothers.
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: Asteriktos on June 05, 2008, 10:53:36 PM
Fwiw, St. Raphael is an example of someone who sat on both sides of the fence during his life. He believed at one point that the Anglicans "possessed largely the Orthodox Faith," and even allowed that "the ministrations of the Episcopal (Anglican) clergy might be kindly requested" in extreme cases when no Orthodox priest was around. However, after further consideration he felt that he had to "resign from the vice-presidency of and membership in the Anglican and Eastern Orthodox Churches Union," and came to the conclusion that: "the doctrinal teaching and practices, as well as the discipline, of the whole Anglican Church are unacceptable to the Holy Orthodox Church." (Source (http://www.angelfire.com/pa3/straphaelcanonized/lives/Anglican.html)).
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: Ebor on June 05, 2008, 11:08:06 PM
So back in the day particularly during the Oxford movement relations between Orthodoxy and Anglicanism were fairly cordial. What is the state of the relations today since Anglicanism has embraced the woman Priest garbage and all the other "things" that are part of the Episcopal Church these days.

Well, calling things "garbage" is umm perhaps a bit off-putting.  Could you please give some examples of the things you have in mind? 

Thanks in advance.  :)

Ebor
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: Ebor on June 05, 2008, 11:13:27 PM
That was my intent. My Priest a Greek Orthodox before he retired called the Episcopal Church in the US a "gnostic sect with women dressing up and playing Priest."

Sigh.  Well, that's kind of sweeping, and doesn't cover the whole spectrum of Episcopalians or Anglicans.

Quote
What I refered to by "things" was the fact that you don't need to believe in the bodily resurection or the virgin birth or any of the ancient creeds to be considered a good episcopalian.

I apologize for posting my last before I'd read the whole thread.  Can you tell us where you got this impression please?  The stories that end up in the papers and on the 'Net aren't the whole picture.  Also, I think in the thread from a while back on Anglicans, there is some discussion that might be considered.

Ebor
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: Orthodox Wannabe on June 06, 2008, 02:06:03 AM
Sigh.  Well, that's kind of sweeping, and doesn't cover the whole spectrum of Episcopalians or Anglicans.

I apologize for posting my last before I'd read the whole thread.  Can you tell us where you got this impression please?  The stories that end up in the papers and on the 'Net aren't the whole picture.  Also, I think in the thread from a while back on Anglicans, there is some discussion that might be considered.

Ebor

Well mostly I get this impression by what I see. All one has to do is open up a newspaper that has a religion section and you'll see what the latest crisis in the Episcopal Church is. A couple weeks ago I read an interview with "Bishop" Gene Robinson talking about how he is so happy to be a June Bride(if that isn't garbage I don't know what is) and this man is a Bishop of the Episcopal Church. Then you have diocese's splitting off and court cases regarding who owns Church property meanwhile at Christmas last year the ArchBishop of Cantebury said that the 3 wise men story may just be myth. We have an Episcopal Church in my town and their Rector writes in the religion section about all sorts of kooky left wing things. Two weeks back he wrote a column questioning the existance of not only Hell but God also. :-\

If that's not enough two words:

Spong
Jefferts-Schori

I am not saying this to sound rude but out of sadness. I have been to a few episcopal churches and once one can get past the strange stuff they have a very beautiful liturgy.
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: Orthodox Wannabe on June 06, 2008, 02:08:02 AM
  Can you tell us where you got this impression please?  The stories that end up in the papers and on the 'Net aren't the whole picture.  

Ebor

I know that that isn't the whole story but it seems to be okay with the hierachy.
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: Orthodox Wannabe on June 06, 2008, 02:09:21 AM
...Oops pushed post too quick...

Which sort of gives it an official exceptance.
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: Αριστοκλής on June 06, 2008, 02:24:09 AM

What I refered to by "things" was the fact that you don't need to believe in the bodily resurection or the virgin birth or any of the ancient creeds to be considered a good episcopalian.
OK. I took his 'things' to be the 'gay-thing' in the episcopate.
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: ozgeorge on June 06, 2008, 08:20:22 AM
Is womens "ordination" being discussed by the Orthodox Church? Maybe I should rethink my conversion to "Orthodoxy".
Fine by me. :)
If the Orthodox Church has to define what it can and cannot discuss according to the lowest common denominator of the views of those who are thinking of joining it, then I think I'd want out.
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: Fr. George on June 06, 2008, 08:34:00 AM
Is womens "ordination" being discussed by the Orthodox Church?

Is anything being discussed by the Orthodox Church?  No, there are no issues of change of praxis or whatnot being discussed by the Church, because the pre-conciliar commissions have not met in awhile.  The Church of Greece has decided to restore the order of the deaconess in limited situations, but they're the only ones that have even approached the issue. 

Maybe I should rethink my conversion to "Orthodoxy". 

What can shake your faith in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: Ebor on June 06, 2008, 09:21:24 AM
Well mostly I get this impression by what I see. All one has to do is open up a newspaper that has a religion section and you'll see what the latest crisis in the Episcopal Church is.

And the stories that show up in the press aren't the sum-total of any Church let alone the Episcopalians/Anglicans. 

Quote
A couple weeks ago I read an interview with "Bishop" Gene Robinson talking about how he is so happy to be a June Bride(if that isn't garbage I don't know what is) and this man is a Bishop of the Episcopal Church.

What *I* would call it is the the personal feelings and words of one man. I don't know him.  He isn't my bishop. I didn't vote for him.  He is one man and he gets press coverage because sometimes he says things that are, let's say, surprising or out of the ordinary.  He's not the only Bishop, but most of the others aren't as controversial or perhaps flamboyant.  However, he is still a human being.

Quote
Then you have diocese's splitting off and court cases regarding who owns Church property

Yes, I know about that.  It's not limited to the Episcopalians either. 

Quote
meanwhile at Christmas last year the ArchBishop of Cantebury said that the 3 wise men story may just be myth.

Did you read the interview in which that was said?  I have and here is a link:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1573214/Archbishop%27s-interview-with-Simon-Mayo.html

Reading things *in context* can be very helpful.  :)  The Archbishop is talking about what is actually in the Gospels and then how things have become attached to that.  Here is what Cantuar+ said:

"Well Matthew's gospel doesn't tell us that there were three of them, doesn't tell us they were kings, doesn't tell us where they came from, it says they're astrologers, wise men, priests from somewhere outside the Roman Empire. That's all we're really told so, yes, 'the three kings with the one from Africa' - that's legend; it works quite well as legend." 

It's not that the Nativity is a "myth" (like some of the headlines said) or that he doesn't believe in Jesus as the Son and born of a virgin (he does).  It's the added on bits that aren't crucial.

Quote
We have an Episcopal Church in my town and their Rector writes in the religion section about all sorts of kooky left wing things. Two weeks back he wrote a column questioning the existance of not only Hell but God also. :-\

Is the paper on-line so that the column could be read please?  I know that a lot of Montana papers have at least some of the publication on a website.  Again, the context of the question or statement can be very important.  What do you mean by "kooky left wing things" please? 

Quote
If that's not enough two words:

Spong
Jefferts-Schori

I am not saying this to sound rude but out of sadness. I have been to a few episcopal churches and once one can get past the strange stuff they have a very beautiful liturgy.

Well, Spong is now retired and doesn't get nearly the press coverage he used to get that I'm aware of. Can you please be more specific about the Presiding Bishop please, before I write on that point?

Thanks

Ebor
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: ytterbiumanalyst on June 06, 2008, 09:40:08 AM
Fine by me. :)
If the Orthodox Church has to define what it can and cannot discuss according to the lowest common denominator of the views of those who are thinking of joining it, then I think I'd want out.
Agreed. That's the thinking of the Willow Creek Church and its progeny (I was a part of one of those once, and the whole "seeker-sensitive" idea was one of my major reasons for leaving).
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: EofK on June 06, 2008, 10:02:37 AM
^I agree.  I went to a seeker sensitive type of church for a little while and since they're based on pulling in new people, they usually have no substance.  I heard a lot of sermons about something or other with some biblical reference and heartfelt rock and roll worship, but to this day I have no idea what they were talking about.  I tried getting involved in a bible study in the same church and it always disintegrated into separate conversations about plans for the weekend or whose ex-wife was doing some crazy thing or whatever else.  I quit bringing my bible to it since we never actually studied it.  In my experience, the seeker sensitive churches are little more than coffee hour with some mild motivational speech.
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: observer on June 06, 2008, 11:30:57 AM
The Holy Orthodox Church will never give in to feminism.  A look-alike might, possibly from the ranks of those who follow the Meletian Calendar. Practicing the outwards forms of faith without the internal spirit will easily give way to all kinds of innovation to keep pace with so-called progress. It seems to me only the Russians and JP have a semblance of Holy Tradition and of course some Greek Old Calendarists.
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: Αριστοκλής on June 06, 2008, 11:38:00 AM
  ::)
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: jnorm888 on June 06, 2008, 03:09:23 PM
Certain people, such as Bp. Kallistos, say that we should talk about it rather than running away from the issue. There isn't really a large movement for the ordination of women in the Orthodox Church.

What is there to talk about? The people that say "we should talk about it", just want to pull a liberal Protestant move. They want to be modern. They want to have Women priests(and one day Bishops too...just like the gnostic loving Episcopals they look up too and soo want to be like). That is what the talks are going to come to. This already happened in Protestant land. The former Protestants that became Orthodox.....like myself, know what's going on. We know what they are trying to do. It already happened in Protestant World. What is there to talk about? IF the answer is not no, then what is there to talk about? They can't fool anyone. Converts know what's going on........they can't dupe anyone with the "talk lingo".


I love BP. Kallistos, but I've noticed that he's been changing over the years towards the left. I no longer want to buy his new edition of the "Orthodox Church". I can't give that book to conservative and moderate Protestants. Only Liberal gnostic loving and bodily resurrection denying Protestants would want to read that book.

And you know what they say? Oh, Let's talk about it! Let's talk about the possibility of his body not rising from the dead, lets talk about the possibility of him not performing miracles.....let's talk about it......we shouldn't run away from it.

If the answer is not no, then what is there to talk about?




He lives in England, so he is surrounded  by Liberal Protestantism, so maybe he is trying to please them. Or maybe they are constantly speaking in his ear. They listen to him speak, and once he says something they don't like.....they put pressure on him to change his mind.

Or maybe the World Council of Churches or the National Council of Churches are putting pressure on him to "SLOWLY" embrace women priests.


I once heard a Roman Catholic on EWTN say that in an old edition of "The Orthodox Church" he said that the ORthodox are against contraception. Then in a later edition, he said that it's up to the individual family.


If this is true, then he is slowly trying to push for the ordaination of women priests.



We need to leave the World Council of Churches, and National Council of Churches, before they turn us into just another Liberal Protestant church.


I pray that the economy of the Western World collapse. OR that Russia pressures the Western World through Oil to embrace more conservative views.

Something needs to happen for the Western World is Hell bound.







JNORM888
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: jnorm888 on June 06, 2008, 03:36:53 PM
Agreed. That's the thinking of the Willow Creek Church and its progeny (I was a part of one of those once, and the whole "seeker-sensitive" idea was one of my major reasons for leaving).

We can't forget that at the end of the day, people are people. We should not ignore the fact that being raised in the Western World is gonna influence all of us.

The Orthodox are no exception to this rule. It hurts to see some cave in, but we are products of our culture.

And we need to be aware of it's influence. If we know what it is then we can stop it. But you can't stop something unknown. Alot of us converts already know what's going on. So as long as we blow the whistle, then the plans to make us ordain women priests will fall flat. It won't happen.

But we have to keep informing the people, and passing the Tradition to the next generation, for those that wanna make Orthodoxy bow down will not stop.



Unlike the Protestants, we have hindsight. We know what will happen. There is no unknown, we know what will happen, we know what is behind all of this.......the people pushing this are not being objective, That's how the protestants caved in. They can't use that same mumbo jumbo on us.....we already know what they are up to.


So what it comes down to is what we love. Do we love Orthodoxy, or do we love England?

We can't love both, for we will hate one and love the other.


Those that want Women priests love England. Those that don't, Love Orthodoxy.






JNORM888
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: ytterbiumanalyst on June 06, 2008, 07:28:45 PM
And you know what they say? Oh, Let's talk about it! Let's talk about the possibility of his body not rising from the dead, lets talk about the possibility of him not performing miracles.....let's talk about it......we shouldn't run away from it.

If the answer is not no, then what is there to talk about?
Sure. Let's talk about those. Feel free to resurrect one of the threads about those issues, or start your own if it's sufficiently different. Is it possible that Christ did not bodily rise from the dead? Is it possible he did not perform miracles? How will we know unless we present evidence, consult the writings of eyewitnesses, reasonably consider the possibility? If the answer is that Christ did rise bodily from the dead, it shall be made clear to us, and if the answer is that He did not, that also shall be made clear to us, and the error of the Church shall be revealed.

Personally, I consider Truth much more highly than doctrine. Only when doctrine is true is it of any value at all.
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: ozgeorge on June 06, 2008, 09:13:18 PM
The people that say "we should talk about it", just want to pull a liberal Protestant move. They want to be modern.
Pretty simple, isn't it?

Only Liberal gnostic loving and bodily resurrection denying Protestants would want to read that book.
Pretty simple, isn't it?

I pray that the economy of the Western World collapse.
Uh huh.
So you want God to inflict untold suffering on billions of people so that the world fits in to your simple vision for it.
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: PeterTheAleut on June 06, 2008, 10:36:44 PM
I love BP. Kallistos, but I've noticed that he's been changing over the years towards the left. I no longer want to buy his new edition of the "Orthodox Church". I can't give that book to conservative and moderate Protestants. Only Liberal gnostic loving and bodily resurrection denying Protestants would want to read that book.
So, do you mean, then, that a sizable number of us Orthodox are liberal (how does one define "liberal", anyway?  more willing to ask questions than I am?), love Gnosticism, and deny the Resurrection? ::)  If you don't like the writings of Metropolitan Kallistos, fine.  That doesn't bother me.  But please don't make such sweeping ad hominems against those who read his works and allow themselves to be challenged by his points of view.
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: Ebor on June 06, 2008, 11:03:47 PM
just like the gnostic loving Episcopals

 >:( ???  First off it's "Episcopalians".  Next would you please explain how 'gnostic' applies?

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Only Liberal gnostic loving and bodily resurrection denying Protestants would want to read that book.

How would you know that to be so, please?  And why do you keep saying "gnostic"?

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If the answer is not no, then what is there to talk about?

And if it is not talked about, how will people who don't know, or who have doubts hear other ideas and beliefs?


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He lives in England, so he is surrounded  by Liberal Protestantism, so maybe he is trying to please them. Or maybe they are constantly speaking in his ear. They listen to him speak, and once he says something they don't like.....they put pressure on him to change his mind.

May I ask how you *know* this assertion to be what is really happening?

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Or maybe the World Council of Churches or the National Council of Churches are putting pressure on him to "SLOWLY" embrace women priests.

Or maybe not....

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I once heard a Roman Catholic on EWTN say that in an old edition of "The Orthodox Church" he said that the ORthodox are against contraception. Then in a later edition, he said that it's up to the individual family.

That is hearsay until it is checked and documented, which shouldn't be hard to do with many copies of the book available.

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If this is true, then he is slowly trying to push for the ordaination of women priests.

I do not see how that follows logically from the previous sentence with a second hand report.

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I pray that the economy of the Western World collapse.

You are praying for hundreds of millions of people to suffer, to not have work or enough to eat or to care for their families!??!? ??? >:( And how does this go along with Our Lord's own words on "Do to others"?   And how will you be secure in this situation? 

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OR that Russia pressures the Western World through Oil to embrace more conservative views.

And how would this come about, do you think?  And can you please tell us what are "conservative views" to you? 


Ebor  :(
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: recent convert on June 09, 2008, 10:01:15 AM
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article3335026.ece?token=null=offset=12 While one may find some of the Orthodox posts here problematic. Let us also consider that there are situations within the whole Anglican communion that give us and many Anglicans much apprehension. This is why people may react in tones that are not always the best but when one reads the article linked re fallout from an earlier outrage in the Anglican communion a red flag is undoubtedly true and not unrelated to the overall concept of this thread.
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: Matariel on August 22, 2008, 06:42:38 PM
So back in the day particularly during the Oxford movement relations between Orthodoxy and Anglicanism were fairly cordial. What is the state of the relations today since Anglicanism has embraced the woman Priest garbage and all the other "things" that are part of the Episcopal Church these days.

Not all Anglican jurisdictions allow this, and many view it as an innovation. Mine doesn't.
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: Entscheidungsproblem on August 22, 2008, 06:45:51 PM
Not all Anglican jurisdictions allow this, and many view it as an innovation. Mine doesn't.

It seems these innovations meet more resistance in certain areas compared to others.  Recently, multiple parishes have severed ties with the Anglican Church of Canada in protest.

Welcome to the forum, Matariel, as well!
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: Matariel on August 22, 2008, 06:48:27 PM
I pray that the economy of the Western World collapse. OR that Russia pressures the Western World through Oil to embrace more conservative views.

Something needs to happen for the Western World is Hell-bound.


JNORM888

How horrific!  :o

Since when is it ok to pray that evil things befall people?!

It seems these innovations meet more resistance in certain areas compared to others.  Recently, multiple parishes have severed ties with the Anglican Church of Canada in protest.

Welcome to the forum, Matariel, as well!

Thank you, Friul!

I was directed over here by an Orthodox believer from Catholic Answer Forums.
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: Reader KevinAndrew on August 24, 2008, 09:40:26 PM
How horrific!  :o

Since when is it ok to pray that evil things befall people?!



Welcome to the forum. It's certainly not OK to wish such things on anyone.  Unfortunately comments like that  occur on here and other forums from time to time. Don't pay comments like that any mind. I pray that persons chrismated scarcely a year ago would continue their guidance and instruction from their spiritual father and sponsors and show some charity toward others.

Please make yourself at home here and feel free to ask any questions you may have. There are some great resources on here. And pray for me, a sinner.

Welcome.

Reader Kevin Andrew
Title: Re: Orthodox and Anglicanism
Post by: SolEX01 on August 24, 2008, 11:55:31 PM
To Matariel, welcome to the forum!   :)
Is the Anglican Diocese of the Chesapeake based in Baltimore, MD or elsewhere?