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Moderated Forums => Free-For-All => Religious Topics => Topic started by: scamandrius on March 06, 2008, 09:45:58 PM

Title: Luther no longer a heretic
Post by: scamandrius on March 06, 2008, 09:45:58 PM
Will wonders never cease?  Pope Benedict XVI who has restored many of the old traditions of Catholicism including loosening the restrictions on the use of the Tridentine (extraordinary) Rite is now going to give a talk which essentially rehabilitates Luther in the eyes of the Church and lifting the label of "heretic" from him.  I find that quite remarkable.  As much as Benedict tries to assert Catholicism in the traditional manner, he seems to be very preoccupied with things that could also make Catholicism simply a "choice" among various Christian denominations.  Just mho.  Here's the article.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3492299.ece

That Martin Luther? He wasn’t so bad, says Pope

Richard Owen in Rome
Pope Benedict XVI is to rehabilitate Martin Luther, arguing that he did not intend to split Christianity but only to purge the Church of corrupt practices.

Pope Benedict will issue his findings on Luther (1483-1546) in September after discussing him at his annual seminar of 40 fellow theologians — known as the Ratzinger Schülerkreis — at Castelgandolfo, the papal summer residence. According to Vatican insiders the Pope will argue that Luther, who was excommunicated and condemned for heresy, was not a heretic.

Cardinal Walter Kasper, the head of the pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, said the move would help to promote ecumenical dialogue between Catholics and Protestants. It is also designed to counteract the impact of July's papal statement describing the Protestant and Orthodox faiths as defective and “not proper Churches”.

The move to re-evaluate Luther is part of a drive to soften Pope Benedict's image as an arch conservative hardliner as he approaches the third anniversary of his election next month. This week it emerged that the Vatican is planning to erect a statue of Galileo, who also faced a heresy trial, to mark the 400th anniversary next year of his discovery of the telescope.

Related Links
Vatican recants with a statue of Galileo
Pope rewrites prayer for 'conversion' of the Jews
The Pope has also reached out to the Muslim world to mend fences after his 2006 speech at Regensburg University in which he appeared to describe Islam as inherently violent and irrational. This week Muslim scholars and Vatican officials met at the pontifical Council for Inter-Religious Dialogue in Rome to begin laying the groundwork for a meeting between the Pope and leading Muslims, also expected to be held at Castelgandolfo.

Cardinal Kasper said: “We have much to learn from Luther, beginning with the importance he attached to the word of God.” It was time for a “more positive” view of Luther, whose reforms had aroused papal ire at the time but could now be seen as having “anticipated aspects of reform which the Church has adopted over time”.

The Castelgandolfo seminar will in part focus on the question of apostolic succession, through which the apostles passed on the authority they received from Jesus to the first bishops. After the Reformation Protestants took the view that “succession” referred only to God's Word and not to church hierarchies but some German scholars have suggested Luther himself did not intend this.

Luther challenged the authority of the papacy by holding that the Bible is the sole source of religious authority and made it accessible to ordinary people by translating it into the vernacular. He became convinced that the Church had lost sight of the “central truths of Christianity”, and was appalled on a visit to Rome in 1510 by the power, wealth and corruption of the papacy.

In 1517 he protested publicly against the sale of papal indulgences for the remission of sins in his “95 Theses”, nailing a copy to the door of a Wittenberg church. Some theologians argue that Luther did not intend to confront the papacy “in a doctrinaire way” but only to raise legitimate questions - a view Pope Benedict apparently shares.

Luther was excommunicated by Pope Leo X, who dismissed him initially as “a drunken German who will change his mind when sober”.
Title: Re: Luther no longer a heretic
Post by: ozgeorge on March 06, 2008, 10:37:05 PM
I make this prophesy:
Twenty years down the track, some Roman Catholic poster is going to come on OCnet and argue that "the Roman Catholic Church never said Luther was a heretic".
Title: Re: Luther no longer a heretic
Post by: serb1389 on March 06, 2008, 11:49:45 PM
I make this prophesy:
Twenty years down the track, some Roman Catholic poster is going to come on OCnet and argue that "the Roman Catholic Church never said Luther was a heretic".

We should have a line in Vegas for this.  I would say tomorrow.  Take it or leave it. 

Funny thing is, every time you read this, tomorrow will be the next day!  yay! 
Title: Re: Luther no longer a heretic
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on March 07, 2008, 12:13:56 AM
Strange times for Roman Catholics.  It's like 'one step forward, two steps back'.  How long will it be till Vatican canonizes Luther as a Holy Fool?
Title: Re: Luther no longer a heretic
Post by: Punch on March 07, 2008, 06:54:26 PM
Given that the Latins have been separated from the Truth for around 1000 years, who cares what the Pope says?  He could call Mohammad a Prophet and declare his pet dog a Saint and it would not make one iota of difference to me.
Title: Re: Luther no longer a heretic
Post by: prodromas on March 08, 2008, 01:19:50 AM
Given that the Latins have been separated from the Truth for around 1000 years, who cares what the Pope says?  He could call Mohammad a Prophet and declare his pet dog a Saint and it would not make one iota of difference to me.

Yep this is really giving substance and real thought to the topic brought up in this thread *sigh*
Title: Re: Luther no longer a heretic
Post by: antiderivative on March 18, 2008, 11:19:03 AM
There is now belief that in Luther's later life, he changed his belief of salvation to the Orthodox view of theosis. You can read about it on Wikipedia. I know he wrote a letter to Patriarch of Constantinople asking for help in the Reformation, but he didn't want to get involved.
Title: Re: Luther no longer a heretic
Post by: Schultz on March 18, 2008, 11:35:10 AM
Once again, MSM (particularly British newspapers) are clueless as to what's actually happening (eg. "NEW SEVEN DEADLY SINS PROMULGATED!" debacle).

As pointed out on a number of religious oriented blogs, notably Amy Wellborn's, this event is a gathering of the Schülerkreis, the Pope's former students, where the students present and discuss various papers on religious subjects.  This year's topic is Martin Luther. 

This gathering is not a meeting of the Curia, it's not magisterial in nature and it most assuredly is not about to a new teaching.  It is, in effect, an alumni meeting of theology geeks. 

Honestly, haven't you people learned to take what the Times writes on religion...ANY religion...with an entire shaker of salt?
Title: Re: Luther no longer a heretic
Post by: Pravoslavbob on March 18, 2008, 12:20:13 PM
There is now belief that in Luther's later life, he changed his belief of salvation to the Orthodox view of theosis. You can read about it on Wikipedia. I know he wrote a letter to Patriarch of Constantinople asking for help in the Reformation, but he didn't want to get involved.

Interestingly, Luther actually exchanged a few letters with the Patriarch before the Patriarch asked their correspondence about matters of faith to stop, since he surmised that Luther just didn't (or wouldn't) "get it" about the Orthodox faith.  I've always thought that this was a rather sad turn of events.  I hadn't heard about Luther's change of heart near the end of his life.  If this is so, it's really something.
Title: Re: Luther no longer a heretic
Post by: lubeltri on March 18, 2008, 01:22:26 PM
Guys, guys...hold your horses. This article is useless and clueless. Notice the dearth of actual quotations? Notice the serious factual error, RE: the document on other Christian communions released last year?

Always remember to take any MSM reporting on anything in Rome with a sizeable boulder of salt.
Title: Re: Luther no longer a heretic
Post by: Eleos on March 18, 2008, 01:26:56 PM
Here's an in-depth article about the historical exchanges between the Patriarch of Constantinople and 16th century Lutheran reformers:
http://www.stpaulsirvine.org/html/lutheran.htm (http://www.stpaulsirvine.org/html/lutheran.htm)
Title: Re: Luther no longer a heretic
Post by: PrincessMommy on March 18, 2008, 01:29:29 PM
Interestingly, Luther actually exchanged a few letters with the Patriarch before the Patriarch asked their correspondence about matters of faith to stop, since he surmised that Luther just didn't (or wouldn't) "get it" about the Orthodox faith.  I've always thought that this was a rather sad turn of events.  I hadn't heard about Luther's change of heart near the end of his life.  If this is so, it's really something.

I think you are talking about something that happened some time after Luther.  It was Lutheran Theologians that corresponded with Patriarch Jeremias II, but I think it was in the 1570's (??).  But, it was still very sad.
Title: Re: Luther no longer a heretic
Post by: lubeltri on March 18, 2008, 02:09:06 PM
Here's an in-depth article about the historical exchanges between the Patriarch of Constantinople and 16th century Lutheran reformers:
http://www.stpaulsirvine.org/html/lutheran.htm (http://www.stpaulsirvine.org/html/lutheran.htm)

Thanks for this. It was absolutely fascinating.
Title: Re: Luther no longer a heretic
Post by: bergschlawiner on March 18, 2008, 04:42:10 PM
So there is no heresy in denying five of the seven sacraments as well as apostolic succcession?
Title: Re: Luther no longer a heretic
Post by: lubeltri on March 18, 2008, 05:00:47 PM
So there is no heresy in denying five of the seven sacraments as well as apostolic succcession?

Yup. Heresy then, heresy now. Like I said, let us look at this meeting next fall in its proper context. Also, let us ignore these dreadfully uninformed and biased articles by the secularist press.
Title: Re: Luther no longer a heretic
Post by: jnorm888 on March 18, 2008, 05:23:04 PM
Will wonders never cease?  Pope Benedict XVI who has restored many of the old traditions of Catholicism including loosening the restrictions on the use of the Tridentine (extraordinary) Rite is now going to give a talk which essentially rehabilitates Luther in the eyes of the Church and lifting the label of "heretic" from him.  I find that quite remarkable.  As much as Benedict tries to assert Catholicism in the traditional manner, he seems to be very preoccupied with things that could also make Catholicism simply a "choice" among various Christian denominations.  Just mho.  Here's the article.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3492299.ece

That Martin Luther? He wasn’t so bad, says Pope

Richard Owen in Rome
Pope Benedict XVI is to rehabilitate Martin Luther, arguing that he did not intend to split Christianity but only to purge the Church of corrupt practices.

Pope Benedict will issue his findings on Luther (1483-1546) in September after discussing him at his annual seminar of 40 fellow theologians — known as the Ratzinger Schülerkreis — at Castelgandolfo, the papal summer residence. According to Vatican insiders the Pope will argue that Luther, who was excommunicated and condemned for heresy, was not a heretic.

Cardinal Walter Kasper, the head of the pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, said the move would help to promote ecumenical dialogue between Catholics and Protestants. It is also designed to counteract the impact of July's papal statement describing the Protestant and Orthodox faiths as defective and “not proper Churches”.

The move to re-evaluate Luther is part of a drive to soften Pope Benedict's image as an arch conservative hardliner as he approaches the third anniversary of his election next month. This week it emerged that the Vatican is planning to erect a statue of Galileo, who also faced a heresy trial, to mark the 400th anniversary next year of his discovery of the telescope.

Related Links
Vatican recants with a statue of Galileo
Pope rewrites prayer for 'conversion' of the Jews
The Pope has also reached out to the Muslim world to mend fences after his 2006 speech at Regensburg University in which he appeared to describe Islam as inherently violent and irrational. This week Muslim scholars and Vatican officials met at the pontifical Council for Inter-Religious Dialogue in Rome to begin laying the groundwork for a meeting between the Pope and leading Muslims, also expected to be held at Castelgandolfo.

Cardinal Kasper said: “We have much to learn from Luther, beginning with the importance he attached to the word of God.” It was time for a “more positive” view of Luther, whose reforms had aroused papal ire at the time but could now be seen as having “anticipated aspects of reform which the Church has adopted over time”.

The Castelgandolfo seminar will in part focus on the question of apostolic succession, through which the apostles passed on the authority they received from Jesus to the first bishops. After the Reformation Protestants took the view that “succession” referred only to God's Word and not to church hierarchies but some German scholars have suggested Luther himself did not intend this.

Luther challenged the authority of the papacy by holding that the Bible is the sole source of religious authority and made it accessible to ordinary people by translating it into the vernacular. He became convinced that the Church had lost sight of the “central truths of Christianity”, and was appalled on a visit to Rome in 1510 by the power, wealth and corruption of the papacy.

In 1517 he protested publicly against the sale of papal indulgences for the remission of sins in his “95 Theses”, nailing a copy to the door of a Wittenberg church. Some theologians argue that Luther did not intend to confront the papacy “in a doctrinaire way” but only to raise legitimate questions - a view Pope Benedict apparently shares.

Luther was excommunicated by Pope Leo X, who dismissed him initially as “a drunken German who will change his mind when sober”.




He Liked Luther back when he was a Cardinal. This isn't really new.


I'm sure he doesn't agree with everything Luther said, but most strong Augustinian monergists tend to think more on the same lines anyway.



The Pope is german  so he maybe trying to bring the Lutherians back under Rome.






JNORM888
Title: Re: Luther no longer a heretic
Post by: stashko on March 18, 2008, 09:00:21 PM
Given that the Latins have been separated from the Truth for around 1000 years, who cares what the Pope says?  He could call Mohammad a Prophet and declare his pet dog a Saint and it would not make one iota of difference to me.


I agree ... and it's funny  i like it....ha ha ha.....im not suprised the pope would overlook allot of heretical things in other protestant christian faiths just so he can be supreme overlord over them .......stanislav/stasko
Title: Re: Luther no longer a heretic
Post by: Justacloserwalk on March 18, 2008, 09:37:16 PM
Look at it this way, Rome was so busy putting out the protests that they never got a chance to jump on us!

I had read many years ago that Luther never wanted to give up his Priesthood, he just wanted to stop the corruption.
Of course, the corruption was as a result of Romes' heresy in the first place.

Error breeds error.
Barbara
Title: Re: Luther no longer a heretic
Post by: lubeltri on March 18, 2008, 10:49:23 PM
Sigh . . . such schadenfreude during Great Lent of all times...  :(
Title: Re: Luther no longer a heretic
Post by: serb1389 on March 20, 2008, 12:09:03 PM
If it's going to happen at any time, it's going to be now with the spiritual krieg that is happening. 
Title: Re: Luther no longer a heretic
Post by: Pravoslavbob on March 21, 2008, 01:33:35 AM
I think you are talking about something that happened some time after Luther. 

I think you are probably right.
Title: Re: Luther no longer a heretic
Post by: Peter J on March 24, 2008, 09:59:52 AM
CNS Story: Vatican spokesman calls rumors of rehabilitation of Luther groundless (http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0801347.htm)
Title: Re: Luther no longer a heretic
Post by: _Seraphim_ on April 01, 2008, 09:55:48 PM
I make this prophesy:
Twenty years down the track, some Roman Catholic poster is going to come on OCnet and argue that "the Roman Catholic Church never said Luther was a heretic".

 ;D
Title: Re: Luther no longer a heretic
Post by: _Seraphim_ on April 01, 2008, 10:11:36 PM
im not suprised the pope would overlook allot of heretical things in other protestant christian faiths just so he can be supreme overlord over them

I know what you mean, although this is a very "hard saying" for many to hear.  It seems near impossible to avoid emotional confrontation when discussing the papacy with many Christians in the west, even though they may be very pious and devoted to their spiritual upbringing... In this regard, "do not condemn them."  Where's the balance?  Well, I think I'll take a moment and pray for my bishop now... what an awesome responsibility he has to "rightly define the word of Divine Truth." 
+Lord have mercy
Title: Re: Luther no longer a heretic
Post by: _Seraphim_ on April 01, 2008, 10:17:10 PM
lubeltri,

I just have to say that while I very much appreciate what you are referring to in this poster (recent western "dance" innovations in the liturgy), I think this sign might cause quite a stir down in Ethiopia!   ;)


(http://www.wdtprs.com/images/BLOG/liturgical_dancefree_zone.jpg)