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Moderated Forums => Faith Issues => Topic started by: Irenaeus07 on March 03, 2008, 02:28:03 PM

Title: Is Islam prophesied in the Bible?
Post by: Irenaeus07 on March 03, 2008, 02:28:03 PM
Is Islam prophesied in the Bible?

I remember when I was Muslim, when I use to have debates with Christians, I had all these bible verses I used against Christians to show that Islam was the religion to come after Christianity.  Even back then, I always tried to objective and actually listen to what people had to say.  And most of the verses which Muslim use to justify their religion, the Christian would come back a solid reply, most of the time. Their replies for the most part were in the realm of conceivable.

However there is one prophesy in the bible that Muslims use, I have not heard a solid reply concerning.  And I was wondering if anyone has an answer for this prophesy, how should we look at this prophesy in the light of Christianity and the teachings of Jesus.


“And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.” (Genesis 17:20)

The Arabs are descendant of Ishmael.  And the Arabs were not made great until Islam came, and they were made a great nation.  God also says in this prophesy, that he has blessed him and not curse him.

So how do we reply to this? 

Thanks.
Title: Re: Is Islam prophesied in the Bible?
Post by: FrChris on March 03, 2008, 02:50:08 PM
Let's put Gen 17:20 in context:

Quote
Genesis 17:19And God said to Abraam, Yea, behold, Sarrha thy wife shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name Isaac; and I will establish my covenant with him, for an everlasting covenant, to be a God to him and to his seed after him.  20 And concerning Ismael, behold, I have heard thee, and, behold, I have blessed him, and will increase him and multiply him exceedingly; twelve nations shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.  21 But I will establish my covenant with Isaac, whom Sarrha shall bear to thee at this time, in the next year. (LXX)

It is clear in v 19 that Isaac will be the one that will have God's covenant established with him; and v 21 makes this even stronger.
Title: Re: Is Islam prophesied in the Bible?
Post by: ozgeorge on March 03, 2008, 02:52:01 PM
And another thing:
The Arabs are descendant of Ishmael. 
While often spouted, this has yet to be proven by anyone. Think about it. The Antiochian Orthodox Christians are also Arabs, yet they do not claim to be "descended from Ishmael". This is just revisionist spin doctoring by Islam. Prior to Islam, the Arabs who were forcibly "converted" by the deluded Mohammed storming Mecca were pagans who worshipped rocks. The Old Testament existed for millenia before the Arabs even heard of monotheism, let alone Patriarch Abraham and his sons, so how on earth would they possibly have known that they were descended from one of Abraham's sons?
Title: Re: Is Islam prophesied in the Bible?
Post by: Irenaeus07 on March 03, 2008, 03:02:40 PM
Quote

Well there are two different types of Arabs. True Arabs, the descendants of Ishmael, and the Arabized Arabs, Arabs by language only, such as most of those in Northern Africa perhaps those North of Arabia such as Syrians, which the ANtiochian belong, and Iraq perhaps.

The Arabs like the Jews, were concerned about their lineage, and the families of Arabs especially in Arabia know their descendancy.  How accurate that is, I don't know.

I was mistaken, true Arabs aren't the desendants of Ishmael.  But they are a type of Arabized Arabs.  The True Arabs were from Yemen, or that region. 
Title: Re: Is Islam prophesied in the Bible?
Post by: ozgeorge on March 03, 2008, 03:11:17 PM
Well there are two different types of Arabs. True Arabs, the descendants of Ishmael, and the Arabized Arabs, Arabs by language only, such as most of those in Northern Africa perhaps those North of Arabia such as Syrians, which the ANtiochian belong, and Iraq perhaps.
Prove it.
Prove:
1) they are descended from Ishmael
2) they knew who Patriarch Abraham was

Also, we shouldn't be so quick to point fingers of blame, Muhammad forcing people to become Muslims. 
It's simply stating a fact. Mohammed sacked Mecca and forced the conversion of those who originally rejected his "prophesies".
Title: Re: Is Islam prophesied in the Bible?
Post by: Irenaeus07 on March 03, 2008, 03:14:11 PM
Prove it.
Prove:
1) they are descended from Ishmael
2) they knew who Patriarch Abraham was
What are your standards of authentication? If they are reasonable I'll see what I can find.

Quote
It's simply stating a fact. Mohammed sacked Mecca and forced the conversion of those who originally rejected his "prophesies".

I don't really care.  This isn't the issue. So I won't argue it.
Title: Re: Is Islam prophesied in the Bible?
Post by: ozgeorge on March 03, 2008, 03:17:21 PM
What are your standards of authentication? If they are reasonable I'll see what I can find.
Any non-islamic sources of records prior to the deluded prophet Mohammed would suffice.
Islam is only 1300 yrs old, and Abraham lived millenia before it, so it shouldn't be too hard to find pre-islamic records from the millenia prior to Islam which prove it.
Title: Re: Is Islam prophesied in the Bible?
Post by: ialmisry on March 03, 2008, 04:07:51 PM
And another thing:While often spouted, this has yet to be proven by anyone. Think about it. The Antiochian Orthodox Christians are also Arabs, yet they do not claim to be "descended from Ishmael".


Actually we do.

Quote
This is just revisionist spin doctoring by Islam. Prior to Islam, the Arabs who were forcibly "converted" by the deluded Mohammed storming Mecca were pagans who worshipped rocks. The Old Testament existed for millenia before the Arabs even heard of monotheism, let alone Patriarch Abraham and his sons, so how on earth would they possibly have known that they were descended from one of Abraham's sons?

According to Arab lore, which predates Islam, the first Arabs "the Arab Arabs" have disappeared (hence the term "the Vanished Arabs"), but before they did they Arabized the descendents of Yoktan, who in term Arabized the sons of Ishamael.

There are a number of references to Arabs as descendents of Ishmael: Josephus mentions the fact that they circumcize at age 13 (something Muslims do now) because of their ancestor Ishmael.  Remember, Moses' father in law was an Arab (see for instance Genesis 25 37) and the Arabs/Ishamelites/Midianites etc. crop up repeatedly in the Old Testament.  There are also a number of references in the Fathers to this fact, e.g. Sozomon's account of the Arabs/Saracens
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf202.iii.xi.xxxviii.html
Where the ancestery is specifically mentioned in connection to their conversion to Christianity.

As for the blessing of the Arabs, they were nations before Muhammand.  Philip the Arab, the first (though crypto-)Christian  Roman emperor (and ruled at the time of Rome's millenium); the Agbars at Edessa were an Arab dynasty, and became the center of Syriac Christianity.  Zenobia and Mavia/Mania were Arab queens.  The Ghasanids ruled the former lands of the Nabateans (also Arab) and the Lakhmids ruled Mesopotamia under the shahs (they had become powerful enough to determine succession of the shahenshah).  The Lakhmids also adapted the Syriac alphabet to Arabic, creating the one we use today.  The kingdom of Kindah had united Arabia briefly.  Both Ghassanids and Lakhmids were Christian when the caliphs conquered them (actually, in the case of the Ghassanids, they switched sides during the Battle of Yarmuk, the king Jabala converting to Islam, but later renouncing it and returning to Christianity and exile in the Roman Empire).  Before all that, the last Babylonian emperor Nebonidus moved to Teman, an Arab city state in Arabia, which is how it merits a condemnation in Jereimiah 32:10 (LXX look at your OSB, in the Masoretic 25:23).  So in a wordly sense the Arabs were as great a nation as the Hebrews under Solomon.  Btw, King Herod's family were Arabs before their conversion, and intermarried with Arabs after it.
Title: Re: Is Islam prophesied in the Bible?
Post by: Irenaeus07 on March 03, 2008, 04:27:50 PM


Actually we do.

According to Arab lore, which predates Islam, the first Arabs "the Arab Arabs" have disappeared (hence the term "the Vanished Arabs"), but before they did they Arabized the descendents of Yoktan, who in term Arabized the sons of Ishamael.

There are a number of references to Arabs as descendents of Ishmael: Josephus mentions the fact that they circumcize at age 13 (something Muslims do now) because of their ancestor Ishmael.  Remember, Moses' father in law was an Arab (see for instance Genesis 25 37) and the Arabs/Ishamelites/Midianites etc. crop up repeatedly in the Old Testament.  There are also a number of references in the Fathers to this fact, e.g. Sozomon's account of the Arabs/Saracens
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf202.iii.xi.xxxviii.html
Where the ancestery is specifically mentioned in connection to their conversion to Christianity.

As for the blessing of the Arabs, they were nations before Muhammand.  Philip the Arab, the first (though crypto-)Christian  Roman emperor (and ruled at the time of Rome's millenium); the Agbars at Edessa were an Arab dynasty, and became the center of Syriac Christianity.  Zenobia and Mavia/Mania were Arab queens.  The Ghasanids ruled the former lands of the Nabateans (also Arab) and the Lakhmids ruled Mesopotamia under the shahs (they had become powerful enough to determine succession of the shahenshah).  The Lakhmids also adapted the Syriac alphabet to Arabic, creating the one we use today.  The kingdom of Kindah had united Arabia briefly.  Both Ghassanids and Lakhmids were Christian when the caliphs conquered them (actually, in the case of the Ghassanids, they switched sides during the Battle of Yarmuk, the king Jabala converting to Islam, but later renouncing it and returning to Christianity and exile in the Roman Empire).  Before all that, the last Babylonian emperor Nebonidus moved to Teman, an Arab city state in Arabia, which is how it merits a condemnation in Jereimiah 32:10 (LXX look at your OSB, in the Masoretic 25:23).  So in a wordly sense the Arabs were as great a nation as the Hebrews under Solomon.  Btw, King Herod's family were Arabs before their conversion, and intermarried with Arabs after it.

Well thanks, this is good solid reply. I am just trying find answers to the small questions, before they become big problems and haunt me later.

But I am still curious to what is the difference between, covenant and blessings, if anyone answer that, it would be lovely.
Title: Re: Is Islam prophesied in the Bible?
Post by: Symeon on March 03, 2008, 04:35:16 PM
Any non-islamic sources of records prior to the deluded prophet Mohammed would suffice.
Islam is only 1300 yrs old, and Abraham lived millenia before it, so it shouldn't be too hard to find pre-islamic records from the millenia prior to Islam which prove it.


Josephus, Antiquities, Book 1, Chapter 12:

Quote
2. Now in a little time Abraham had a son by Sarah, as God had foretold to him, whom he named Isaac, which signifies Laughter. And indeed they so called him, because Sarah laughed when God said that she should bear a son, she not expecting such a thing, as being past the age of child-bearing, for she was ninety years old, and Abraham a hundred; so that this son was born to them both in the last year of each of those decimal numbers. And they circumcised him upon the eighth day and from that time the Jews continue the custom of circumcising their sons within that number of days. But as for the Arabians, they circumcise after the thirteenth year, because Ismael, the founder of their nation, who was born to Abraham of the concubine, was circumcised at that age; concerning whom I will presently give a particular account, with great exactness.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/josephus/works/files/ant-1.htm

Pre-Islamic: Check
Non-Muslim: Check
Title: Re: Is Islam prophesied in the Bible?
Post by: ignatius on March 03, 2008, 05:38:48 PM
Neat stuff everyone!  ;D
Title: Re: Is Islam prophesied in the Bible?
Post by: ialmisry on March 03, 2008, 07:20:22 PM
Well thanks, this is good solid reply. I am just trying find answers to the small questions, before they become big problems and haunt me later.

But I am still curious to what is the difference between, covenant and blessings, if anyone answer that, it would be lovely.

In this context, Ishmael is blessed because he will become a great nation, his progeny will share in the promises to Abraham etc, but the covenant is through Isaac because it is his descendent, the Messiah, who will fulfill and consumate those promises.

Sort of like primogeniture, the second sons are not reduced to serfs, they still have their family conections, noble blood etc, but the eldest alone inherits the Father's title and estate.
Title: Re: Is Islam prophesied in the Bible?
Post by: 88Devin12 on March 03, 2008, 08:11:48 PM
I know i'm not Orthodox, but I would like to provide some thought on this. From what i've heard, God treats everyone the same, even in seperation of soul and body, everyone receives the same grace.
So would it be correct to say that the idea of God "cursing" anyone would be incorrect? So even if Islam is a production of the decendents of Ishmael, there is no reason to be upset about them being "blessed" since God loves equally. And even if they were prophesied about, that doesn't change the fact that the Church is the bride of Christ and Christians are the "chosen people". It also certainly wouldn't mean that Islam is right or God-given by any measure.

Would this be a correct analysis, or am I completely wrong? Forgive me if I am in error. I'm not Orthodox and am certainly still working on acheiving the right mindset.
Title: Re: Is Islam prophesied in the Bible?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on March 04, 2008, 12:17:37 AM
What of those non-Arabs who become Muslim proselytes?  Do they then become descendants of Ishmael, too?
Title: Re: Is Islam prophesied in the Bible?
Post by: Irenaeus07 on March 04, 2008, 01:30:12 AM
What of those non-Arabs who become Muslim proselytes?  Do they then become descendants of Ishmael, too?

It wasn't so much that non-arabic Muslim are descendants of Ishmael, my point was trying to find out, Whether or not what the Muslims teaching is true or not.  If not how do we understand that biblical verse.

Fr Chris, made an excellent point is showing that the covernant is through Isaac and not Ishmael.  After pondering over what has been written, it appears that covenant refers to the where the truth will be.  Isaac, of which Jesus is desendant.  God blessed the house of Ishmael, which could imply many things.  I am inclined to believe, blessing means that they will accept the truth.  And there are many Christian Arabs, and I also think that the Muslims, have not been blessed completely because they have not completely accepted Jesus, and their accepting of Jesus according to Islamic prophesy won't be until his second coming.

Although Islam has some truth it does not have the complete truth. Anyway those are my thoughts.

Title: Re: Is Islam prophesied in the Bible?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on March 04, 2008, 01:45:29 AM
Although Islam has some truth it does not have the complete truth. Anyway those are my thoughts.
Just as Arianism has some semblance of truth.
Title: Re: Is Islam prophesied in the Bible?
Post by: buzuxi on March 04, 2008, 05:23:38 AM
Is Islam prophesied in the Bible?

I remember when I was Muslim, when I use to have debates with Christians, I had all these bible verses I used against Christians to show that Islam was the religion to come after Christianity.  Even back then, I always tried to objective and actually listen to what people had to say.  And most of the verses which Muslim use to justify their religion, the Christian would come back a solid reply, most of the time. Their replies for the most part were in the realm of conceivable.

However there is one prophesy in the bible that Muslims use, I have not heard a solid reply concerning.  And I was wondering if anyone has an answer for this prophesy, how should we look at this prophesy in the light of Christianity and the teachings of Jesus.




“And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.” (Genesis 17:20)

The Arabs are descendant of Ishmael.  And the Arabs were not made great until Islam came, and they were made a great nation.  God also says in this prophesy, that he has blessed him and not curse him.

So how do we reply to this? 

Thanks.

Concerning Ishmael Gen 16.12- "And he will be a wild man, his hand will be against every man, and every mans hand will be against him. And he shall dwell in the prescense of all his brethren. "

Yup that sounds like muslim dessendants of Ishmael and Muhammed, who dwelt amongs his people and made war against them in Mecca.

Dan 12.11-12, "And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away and the abominations that make desolate set up. , there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth and cometh to the one thousand three hundred thirty five days".

Lets see Muhammed died on June 8 632 a.d., and the jews recaptured and officially declared Jerusalem as theirs on June 8 1967. That makes it exactly 1335 years to the exact day of Muhammeds death. 

You can read a prophecy into anything, and it may even be true, but who knows. Ill just stick to prophecys of Christ.
Title: Re: Is Islam prophesied in the Bible?
Post by: ozgeorge on March 04, 2008, 06:03:23 AM
Josephus, Antiquities, Book 1, Chapter 12:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/josephus/works/files/ant-1.htm

Pre-Islamic: Check
Non-Muslim: Check
Well done, although I have to wonder about Josephus' intentions in making the Arabs the descendants of Ishmael- born of a concubine and rejected.
I would love to be the one to tell Islamic Arabs that the only evidence they have that they are descended from Ishmael comes from a 2nd century AD Jewish historian! :D
Title: Re: Is Islam prophesied in the Bible?
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on March 04, 2008, 12:22:46 PM
Well done, although I have to wonder about Josephus' intentions in making the Arabs the descendants of Ishmael- born of a concubine and rejected.
I would love to be the one to tell Islamic Arabs that the only evidence they have that they are descended from Ishmael comes from a 2nd century AD Jewish historian! :D
Unfortunately, you just might get that  chance (http://www.afic.com.au/api10.htm).  God speed!  :D
Title: Re: Is Islam prophesied in the Bible?
Post by: ebpusey on March 05, 2008, 03:10:39 AM
I'm glad we're having this discussion on the board. It seems the party line this day (and very unfortunately so) is that Jews, Christians, and Moslems all have the same God. I remember quite clearly my Orthodox Priest discussing this issue and he stated, "Christians only know the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." All other faiths must then be measured by this rule.
Title: Re: Is Islam prophesied in the Bible?
Post by: ytterbiumanalyst on March 05, 2008, 08:23:19 AM
Yeah, Bono hasn't done us any favors with his "Coexist" campaign, either.
Title: Re: Is Islam prophesied in the Bible?
Post by: SolEX01 on June 18, 2008, 11:04:33 PM
I always figured that the descendants of Ishmael were the Gentiles who received the blessing from Christ, not specifically Arabs, Muslims or anyone else.

While the covenant to the Jewish people came through Issac, the covenant with all people came through the Gentiles as symbolic (and literal) descendants of Ishamel.  For those who apostatized to Islam, Christ awaits those who return back to Him.   :angel:
Title: Re: Is Islam prophesied in the Bible?
Post by: JustinianPrima on June 19, 2008, 01:40:07 AM
Yeah, Bono hasn't done us any favors with his "Coexist" campaign, either.

I thought Bono had the "One" campaign?? :D
Title: Re: Is Islam prophesied in the Bible?
Post by: ytterbiumanalyst on June 20, 2008, 12:05:40 PM
I thought Bono had the "One" campaign?? :D
He has both. "Coexist" is his campaign for peace in the Middle East. "One" is his campaign to fight AIDS. Yeah, he doesn't have any delusions of grandeur.
Title: Re: Is Islam prophesied in the Bible?
Post by: holdencaulfield on June 20, 2008, 04:24:06 PM
Interesting question, however I can suggest that you read St. John of Damascus' Critique of Islam. He seems to agree with the traditional Christian approach that there was no proof of Islam in the Bible.

Quote
"there are many other extraordinary and quite ridiculous things in this book [the Koran] which he boasts was sent down to him from God. But when we ask: ‘And who is there to testify that God gave him the book [the Koran]? And which of the prophets foretold that such a prophet would rise up?’—they are at a loss." (St. John of Damascus; Critique of Islam)