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Moderated Forums => Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion => Orthodox-Catholic Discussion => Topic started by: Papist on January 28, 2008, 12:06:50 PM

Title: Imagine if.....
Post by: Papist on January 28, 2008, 12:06:50 PM
Imagine that one day the Pope proclaimed, we Catholics have been in error all along and we must return to the Unity of the Orthodox Church. Which of the following would have to change for Catholics, and how?
1. The use of the Tridentine Liturgy
2. The Use of statues
3. The use of realistic religious art
4. Papal Primacy
5. Purgatory
6. The Immaculate Conception
7. Indulgences
8. Private devotions such as the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Divine Mercy
9. Transubstantiation
10. The filioque and the theology it repreresents.
11. Reliance on the theology of St. Thomas Aquinas
12. Vernerations of post Schism western saints
13. Fasts and Liturgical calander
14. The teaching of the Beatific Vision
15. Rejection of the essence/energies distinction.
16. ETC, ETC, ETC, what whould change?
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Mickey on January 28, 2008, 01:23:26 PM
That's a tough call. It is speculation. Certainly I would guess, papal supremacy/infallibility, purgatory, IC, indulgences, filioque. The Church would have to evaluate any post schism innovations.

Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Jimmy on January 28, 2008, 01:57:14 PM
Delete
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: ytterbiumanalyst on January 29, 2008, 05:50:58 PM
From my experience, I would say all but #12. At first I would expect that all Western saints would be excluded, but eventually we may add some to our canon. Not all Western saints would be venerated, of course, as we differ in our criteria for canonization, but some we would probably accept in time.
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Anastasios on January 29, 2008, 06:41:34 PM
1. The use of the Tridentine Liturgy   Keep
2. The Use of statues Keep
3. The use of realistic religious art   Keep
4. Papal Primacy  Primacy of honor and appellate jurisdiction is OK
5. Purgatory   No temporal guilt, replace with waiting chamber for heaven and hell concept
6. The Immaculate Conception   Out
7. Indulgences   Out
8. Private devotions such as the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Divine Mercy  Maybe
9. Transubstantiation  Keep
10. The filioque and the theology it repreresents.   Out
11. Reliance on the theology of St. Thomas Aquinas   Out
12. Vernerations of post Schism western saints   Depends on Saint
13. Fasts and Liturgical calander   What fasts? ;)
14. The teaching of the Beatific Vision    Out
15. Rejection of the essence/energies distinction.   Definitely out
16. ETC, ETC, ETC, what whould change?
[/quote]
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: drewmeister2 on January 29, 2008, 07:42:19 PM
IMO the Western Rite that ROCOR developed seems to be a fairly decent model for what the Catholics would need to be like in order to be considered Orthodox again. 
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Papist on January 29, 2008, 07:58:55 PM
IMO the Western Rite that ROCOR developed seems to be a fairly decent model for what the Catholics would need to be like in order to be considered Orthodox again. 
Can you elaborate?
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: drewmeister2 on January 29, 2008, 08:19:53 PM
Here is a link that might help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Orthodoxy

and here is a fairly well-known ROCOR Western Rite monastery: http://www.christminster.org/
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: sohma_hatori on January 30, 2008, 12:46:49 AM
Hmm.. What exactly is the difference between Purgatory and 'waiting chamber for heaven and hell concept"?
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Papist on January 30, 2008, 04:55:42 PM
Hmm.. What exactly is the difference between Purgatory and 'waiting chamber for heaven and hell concept"?
The waiting chamber may not require suffering as a temporal consequence of forgiven sins.
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Peter J on February 02, 2008, 09:16:05 AM
Hi Papist,

I'd be pretty surprised if Benedict were to announce his intention for us become Orthodox. But if he did, you can be sure I would prepare by joining the catechumenate at a local Orthodox Church.

-Peter.
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: prodromas on February 02, 2008, 09:20:54 AM
^^Why would you do that?
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Peter J on February 02, 2008, 06:31:00 PM
prodromas,

^^Why would you do that?

I guess because I can't think of any better way to prepare for becoming Orthodox. (I'm intrigued by your question, btw, even if I don't entirely understand what you're getting at.)
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: prodromas on February 02, 2008, 06:35:57 PM
Sorry PJ what i meant was why would you straight away go to the Orthodox church? Would you not first think the Holy father had gone mad\heretical?
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Papist on February 02, 2008, 08:09:51 PM
Honestly, I think I would become Protestant if the Pope did that.  :). There are too many things about Eastern Orthodox Ecclesiology/theology that I think border on un-Christian.
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Peter J on February 02, 2008, 09:24:40 PM
Ah, well now I see what you're getting at, prodromas.

Sorry PJ what i meant was why would you straight away go to the Orthodox church? Would you not first think the Holy father had gone mad\heretical?

I love it. :laugh: :D (What was it Adrian Monk said? That makes me want to L.O.L. out loud.)

-Peter.
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Peter J on February 02, 2008, 09:29:57 PM
Honestly, I think I would become Protestant if the Pope did that.  :).

Once again, Papist, your candor of self-revelation is most impressive. ;)

Could I possibly get that statement from you in writing? Oh wait ... um, never mind.
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: prodromas on February 02, 2008, 09:42:06 PM
Please expand on these unchristian practices.
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Peter J on February 02, 2008, 09:43:15 PM
Would you not first think the Holy father had gone mad\heretical?

On a serious note, I'm sure that -- even assuming such a thing were to happen -- there would be plenty of Catholic who would think madness or heresy. (Remember that the filioque was recited in the creed for a couple of centuries before it had papal approval. Also, I understand that some Catholics weren't too happy about the fact that Pope JPII would sometimes recite the creed in it's original form.)

God bless,
Peter.
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Peter J on February 02, 2008, 10:10:58 PM
There are too many things about Eastern Orthodox Ecclesiology/theology that I think border on un-Christian.

By the way, you and ozgeorge really are two peas in a pod:

Moderation:
Please do not quote from the Private Forums into the Public Forums. Otherwise there is no point in having the Private Forums.
George
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: prayingserb on February 02, 2008, 10:30:37 PM
Please expand on these unchristian practices.

I 2nd this...

Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Peter J on February 03, 2008, 11:14:39 AM
Honestly, I think I would become Protestant if the Pope did that.  :). There are too many things about Eastern Orthodox Ecclesiology/theology that I think border on un-Christian.

Please expand on these unchristian practices.

With all due respect to you, prodromas, and to prayingserb, I would be less interested in hearing that than in hearing what other Catholics on this board (I'm think particularly of Athanasios and Joab Anias) think of Papists' most recent assertions.
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Peter J on February 03, 2008, 11:15:40 AM
Papist,

Honestly, I think I would become Protestant if the Pope did that.  :). There are too many things about Eastern Orthodox Ecclesiology/theology that I think border on un-Christian.

For some time now, I've suspected you to be some kind of crypto-protestant. Now it seems that I was correct, except that "crypto" doesn't seem to be the right qualifier, seeing how open and out-of-the-closet you are about the whole thing.

God bless,
Peter.
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: ozgeorge on February 03, 2008, 01:32:36 PM
By the way, you and ozgeorge really are two peas in a pod:
Not really. At least I can prove that Papist worships a different god based on his own words.
BTW- please don't quote Private Forums in Public forums.
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Peter J on February 03, 2008, 04:35:26 PM
BTW- please don't quote Private Forums in Public forums.

You're right. My apologies.
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Papist on February 05, 2008, 12:00:12 AM
Please expand on these unchristian practices.
I am not sure if we are allowed to post links but google "Eastern Orthodoxy Unveiled". You should be able to find an article in Christian Order by Larson that describes some of the things about Eastern Orthodoxy that concern me.
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Papist on February 05, 2008, 12:05:10 AM
Papist,

For some time now, I've suspected you to be some kind of crypto-protestant. Now it seems that I was correct, except that "crypto" doesn't seem to be the right qualifier, seeing how open and out-of-the-closet you are about the whole thing.

God bless,
Peter.
LOL. Just about the silliest thing I have heard in years. If my friends heard you say this they might die of laughter. No, my reasoning is that I believe that Protestants have maintained some of the fundamental concepts of Christianity, such as the atoning sacrifice, that the Eastern Orthodox have lost. If the Catholic Church were ever to fall to Eastern Orthodoxy (which I don't believe it could) I would join an extremely high church Anglo-Catholic community or perhaps become a sedevacantist.
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Peter J on February 05, 2008, 09:19:05 AM
^^ Like I said ... ::)


By the way, you and ozgeorge really are two peas in a pod
Not really. At least I can prove that Papist worships a different god based on his own words.

Seems to me that the fact you would say that just demonstrates my point further. Although perhaps I should say "two sides of the same coin" rather than "two peas in a pod".

God bless you both,
Peter.
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Sophia1925 on February 05, 2008, 09:38:51 AM
No, my reasoning is that I believe that Protestants have maintained some of the fundamental concepts of Christianity, such as the atoning sacrifice, that the Eastern Orthodox have lost.

Orthodox believe in Atoning Sacrifice very much. Are you making deliberate lie? What gave you the idea that Orthodox deny this? Have you ever read Orthodox Bible or services of Orthodox Church?

Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Paisius on February 05, 2008, 11:02:53 AM
I am not sure if we are allowed to post links but google "Eastern Orthodoxy Unveiled". You should be able to find an article in Christian Order by Larson that describes some of the things about Eastern Orthodoxy that concern me.
Wow that article was absolutely fascinating. :o

I didn't realize we were pantheistic Antichrists.  ::)


Yours in Christ
Paisius
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Peter J on February 05, 2008, 11:52:04 AM
Wow that article was absolutely fascinating. :o

I didn't realize we were pantheistic Antichrist's.  ::)


Yours in Christ
Paisius


Yes. In fact, that website would be rather amusing, except that I find it a little too close-to-home -- being a Catholic myself -- to hear such absurdities from people who call themselves "Catholic" as well.
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Papist on February 05, 2008, 12:05:01 PM
Orthodox believe in Atoning Sacrifice very much. Are you making deliberate lie? What gave you the idea that Orthodox deny this? Have you ever read Orthodox Bible or services of Orthodox Church?


Lie? Excuse me? I have been told over and over again the Eastern Orthodox do NOT believe in the Atonement by Eastern Orthodox believers and have read as much all ovel the internet.
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Papist on February 05, 2008, 12:06:09 PM
Yes. In fact, that website would be rather amusing, except that I find it a little too close-to-home -- being a Catholic myself -- to hear such absurdities from people who call themselves "Catholic" as well.
Yeah, because if you don't believe in Eastern Orthodoxy, you must not be Catholic. That seems to be the Eastern Catholic position.
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Heracleides on February 05, 2008, 12:08:07 PM
Yes. In fact, that website would be rather amusing, except that I find it a little too close-to-home -- being a Catholic myself -- to hear such absurdities from people who call themselves "Catholic" as well.

Fr. Ambrose made mincemeat of Mr. Larson over on CAF in relation to this article.  To bad the archives were lost in the Catholic book-burning of all things Orthodox on CAF, otherwise one could witness Mr. Larson's utter ineptness in defending his absurd claims.
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Mickey on February 05, 2008, 12:58:32 PM
Fr. Ambrose made mincemeat of Mr. Larson over on CAF in relation to this article.  To bad the archives were lost in the Catholic book-burning of all things Orthodox on CAF, otherwise one could witness Mr. Larson's utter ineptness in defending his absurd claims.
Amen.
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Peter J on February 05, 2008, 01:51:31 PM
Fr. Ambrose made mincemeat of Mr. Larson over on CAF in relation to this article.  To bad the archives were lost in the Catholic book-burning of all things Orthodox on CAF, otherwise one could witness Mr. Larson's utter ineptness in defending his absurd claims.

I'm sorry I missed that!

One thing I'm curious about: how was Mr. Larson received by the CAF mods? Did they allow him to present his views as being "Catholic"?

God bless,
Peter.
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Peter J on February 05, 2008, 01:55:31 PM
Yeah, because if you don't believe in Eastern Orthodoxy, you must not be Catholic. That seems to be the Eastern Catholic position.

Hank: Dale, sometimes I think you say things just to hear yourself talk.
Dale: What do you want me to do, ignore myself?
- from King of the Hill episode "Tankin' It To the Streets"
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Papist on February 05, 2008, 02:42:32 PM
Hank: Dale, sometimes I think you say things just to hear yourself talk.
Dale: What do you want me to do, ignore myself?
- from King of the Hill episode "Tankin' It To the Streets"
PJ, Sometimes I think you say you are Catholic just so you can have the title.
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Peter J on February 05, 2008, 03:39:21 PM
PJ, Sometimes I think you say you are Catholic just so you can have the title.

I'm sure you meant that to be an insult; but given your past statements, your support for people like James Larson, and the fact that you (somehow) think of yourself as "Catholic", I actually find it a bit comforting that don't you think of me as being "Catholic" too.

But more importantly, I really don't have much desire to keep having silly arguments with either you or ozgeorge. (Maybe I'll just refrain from posting for the rest of the day -- I think lubeltri said he's coming back tomorrow.)

God bless,
Peter.
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: ozgeorge on February 05, 2008, 04:47:22 PM
I really don't have much desire to keep having silly arguments with either you or ozgeorge.
Yes, you do.
If it were the case that you didn't, you wouldn't ask me questions that you know you won't like the answers to. ;)
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Papist on February 05, 2008, 04:53:41 PM
My. The three of us have become good friends.  ;)
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Sophia1925 on February 05, 2008, 04:55:26 PM
Lie? Excuse me? I have been told over and over again the Eastern Orthodox do NOT believe in the Atonement by Eastern Orthodox believers and have read as much all ovel the internet.


Please where on the internet you read this lie? What "Eastern Orthodox" are these who told you that (excuse me if I doubt that they are neither Eastern or Orthodox)?

Orthodox Church in local council damned all those who do not confess Atonement.

Maybe you want to read what Orthodox Church really teaches before you spread lies?

http://romanitas.ru/eng/The%20Mystery%20of%20Redemption.htm
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Papist on February 05, 2008, 05:06:56 PM
Please where on the internet you read this lie? What "Eastern Orthodox" are these who told you that (excuse me if I doubt that they are neither Eastern or Orthodox)?

Orthodox Church in local council damned all those who do not confess Atonement.

Maybe you want to read what Orthodox Church really teaches before you spread lies?

http://romanitas.ru/eng/The%20Mystery%20of%20Redemption.htm

I have heard from the resident Fr. Ambrose himself that the Eastern Orthodox do not believe in the Atonement. Ask him.
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Schultz on February 05, 2008, 05:09:14 PM
Please where on the internet you read this lie? What "Eastern Orthodox" are these who told you that (excuse me if I doubt that they are neither Eastern or Orthodox)?

A search of the archives could probably turn up dozens of hits on this website alone.  I've always heard that the predominate Orthodox attitude towards the classic Anselmian atonement was one of at the very least suspicion.


Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Sophia1925 on February 05, 2008, 05:23:02 PM
I have heard from the resident Fr. Ambrose himself that the Eastern Orthodox do not believe in the Atonement. Ask him.

The Priest you speak of also thinks contraception is okay so I would not be placing all my trust in him and will not be asking him any questions about Holy Orthodoxy.

The Council of Constantinople of 1156 gives to damnation those who do not believe in the Atonement. The Bible speaks of Atonement. So you are going to take "resident Fr Ambrose" above Bible and the Sobornost of the Church as what the Orthodox Faith is?
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Peter J on February 05, 2008, 08:50:49 PM
A search of the archives could probably turn up dozens of hits on this website alone.

I didn't read all the hits that I got from the search, but this post seems worth a read:

The Orthodox do not consider the "atonement" view of salvation as wrong since, as has been correctly, pointed out, it is very scriptural.  But this forensic viewpoint should not stand as pars pro toto which, unfortunately, has happened way too much in Western Christianity and especially in the Protestant branches.  I always found it ironic that these same Protestants who insist on such a juridical view of salvation consider such things as the Divine Liturgy, veneration of the saints, fasts, monasticism, etc. as legalism.  But, if we solely consign ourselves to ONLY (that's the key word) the atonement view of salvation as equivalent to a "not guilty" verdict which Christ paid for us on the cross, what comes after that?  Does the defendant just walk out of the courtroom and go on as if nothing happened?  When reading St. Paul, he uses the juridical terminology to a point, but then switches to another metaphor of Christ's redemptive work, namely of life/death.  For the Orthodox, Christ's redemptive work was necessary so that upon hearing the "not guilty" we are transformed and desire to achieve theosis, to participate in God's nature (II Pet. 2:14).

Again, the problem with the western viewpoint is that it is incomplete.  By itself, the Orthodox have no problem with the "vicarious atonement", but to leave it simply as a "not guilty" neglects the incarnation in that what Christ assumed was to be healed (St. Gregory the Theologian) and death becomes truly powerless.

Scamandrius
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Riddikulus on February 05, 2008, 11:15:12 PM
The Priest you speak of also thinks contraception is okay so I would not be placing all my trust in him and will not be asking him any questions about Holy Orthodoxy.

???
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 05, 2008, 11:24:25 PM
The Priest you speak of also thinks contraception is okay so I would not be placing all my trust in him and will not be asking him any questions about Holy Orthodoxy.

The Council of Constantinople of 1156 gives to damnation those who do not believe in the Atonement. The Bible speaks of Atonement. So you are going to take "resident Fr Ambrose" above Bible and the Sobornost of the Church as what the Orthodox Faith is?
Take note of him to whom you directed this reply, for he doesn't even claim to represent Orthodoxy except from his Papist point of view (use of pejorative permissible in this case, since that is how he identifies himself here), and he certainly doesn't present a very honest picture of our own Fr. Ambrose.
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Heracleides on February 05, 2008, 11:55:59 PM
The Priest you speak of also thinks contraception is okay so I would not be placing all my trust in him and will not be asking him any questions about Holy Orthodoxy.

The Council of Constantinople of 1156 gives to damnation those who do not believe in the Atonement. The Bible speaks of Atonement. So you are going to take "resident Fr Ambrose" above Bible and the Sobornost of the Church as what the Orthodox Faith is?

As opposed to what - the interpretations of what the Orthodox Faith is from a TOC member?  Thanks, but I will stick with Fr. Ambrose.
Title: Re: Imagine if.....
Post by: Entscheidungsproblem on February 06, 2008, 01:53:11 AM
Please remember this thread is meant for debating/discussing an "imagine if" situation.  Orthodox faith issues belong in the Faith forum (unless used to compare/contrast RC beliefs) and just a general warning, please keep all discussions civil.