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General Forums => Christian News => Topic started by: Tamara on January 25, 2008, 11:50:55 PM

Title: Eucharistic Community & Unity: Achieving Both( Met. KALLISTOS) 2/19/08 Detroit
Post by: Tamara on January 25, 2008, 11:50:55 PM
The Future of Orthodoxy
in the United States

Eucharistic Community & Unity: Achieving Both



For more than 15 centuries, Orthodox Christians were defined by their faith and worship, following the Great Commission of Jesus Christ to "...go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..."

Yet in America, the Ancient Orthodox Church is seen as an ‘ethnic’ church, defined more by the nationality of its members rather than the tenants of the One-True Faith.

Metropolitan Kallistos will explore the future of Orthodoxy in America and offer his thoughts on how a united Orthodox Church can prosper and effectively preach the Gospel in today’s world.


Where:    St. George Antiochian Orthodox Church, Troy MI
2160 E. Maple Rd
Troy,   MI 48083-4483
Tel: 248-589-0480

When:    Tuesday, Feb 19th 7:00 PM

Registration: $10.00

Books will be available for purchase and signing by His Eminence, courtesy of Pascha Books

For more information, contact Dean Calvert at 248 624 1222 or email dcalvert@netscape.com

*** visit us online at www.orthodoxdetroit.com ***

Title: Re: Eucharistic Community & Unity: Achieving Both( Met. KALLISTOS) 2/19/08 Detro
Post by: Tamara on January 26, 2008, 12:10:32 AM
Ancient Faith Radio will be recording this event for those of us who do not live in Detroit.
It will then be available on the archive file at Ancient Faith Radio.
Title: Re: Eucharistic Community & Unity: Achieving Both( Met. KALLISTOS) 2/19/08 Detro
Post by: Fr. David on January 26, 2008, 11:12:40 AM
Thanks for this!

AFR is (rightly) becoming a sort of herald for administrative unity, no?
Title: Re: Eucharistic Community & Unity: Achieving Both( Met. KALLISTOS) 2/19/08 Detro
Post by: Tamara on January 26, 2008, 12:29:03 PM
You are welcome.

I would agree with your assessment. As my friend, who is working toward Orthodoxy unity, always tells me,"The forces of light are gathering."

In the past, unity was only something that could be heard about at a local level or read about in literature by an individual. With Orthodox media, events on Orthodox unity can be shared with a much larger audience within a short span of time.
We all soon will have the same level of awareness and knowledge on this issue which should hasten unity's inevitability.
Title: Re: Eucharistic Community & Unity: Achieving Both( Met. KALLISTOS) 2/19/08 Detro
Post by: observer on January 26, 2008, 01:25:39 PM
What is this unity that we don't have already?  The disunity is on the part of the GOA and Antiochians who refuse to serve with the Mother Church of Jerusalem here in the US.  The disunity is the banning of OCA clergy by the GOA in Canada.  While we have hierarchs that are politicians rather than shepherds, all the fine discussion and fiery speeches will amount to nothing.  We have unity in the Eucharist - what more do we want?  I for one don't want a clean-shaven bishop who is too lazy to serve a complete service - no thanks rather have old fashioned Russian vladika.
Title: Re: Eucharistic Community & Unity: Achieving Both( Met. KALLISTOS) 2/19/08 Detro
Post by: arimethea on January 26, 2008, 03:09:23 PM
The disunity is on the part of the GOA and Antiochians who refuse to serve with the Mother Church of Jerusalem here in the US. 
You other arguments are valid but someone really needs to call you to task on this statement. Jerusalem came here to America to create disunity. The violated an agreement that dated back to before the second world war by coming to America. Their parishes and monasteries were ones who had dubious histories. The fact that both the Antiochians and GOA are working together with keeping Jerusalem out of America should shows a good sign of unity.
Title: Re: Eucharistic Community & Unity: Achieving Both( Met. KALLISTOS) 2/19/08 Detro
Post by: observer on January 26, 2008, 05:15:52 PM
The JP was responsible for mission in US in the 1920s and handed over its parishes to the newly formed GOA.  That JP is back is good for America.  I believe that is good for US to have as many canonical churches as possible and not to quibble over who is going to get the biggest slice of the cake.  Let's keep globalism out of Orthodoxy.  I personally love unity in diversity.
Title: Re: Eucharistic Community & Unity: Achieving Both( Met. KALLISTOS) 2/19/08 Detro
Post by: Tamara on January 27, 2008, 05:25:00 PM
What is this unity that we don't have already?  The disunity is on the part of the GOA and Antiochians who refuse to serve with the Mother Church of Jerusalem here in the US.  The disunity is the banning of OCA clergy by the GOA in Canada.  While we have hierarchs that are politicians rather than shepherds, all the fine discussion and fiery speeches will amount to nothing.  We have unity in the Eucharist - what more do we want?  I for one don't want a clean-shaven bishop who is too lazy to serve a complete service - no thanks rather have old fashioned Russian vladika.

I am pretty sure that the JP parishes will be absorbed into the EP grouping of jurisdictions. They no longer have a bishop headquartered in North America. They aren't starting anymore missions.
We may have eucharistic unity but we have redundancy of ministries and we appear to the outside world as independent ethnic churches who are not in communion with one another. Russia and Greece would never tolerate the canonical chaos produced by overlapping jurisdictions within their own borders.
Title: Re: Eucharistic Community & Unity: Achieving Both( Met. KALLISTOS) 2/19/08 Detro
Post by: Fr. George on January 27, 2008, 06:17:06 PM
The disunity is on the part of the GOA and Antiochians who refuse to serve with the Mother Church of Jerusalem here in the US. 

Lol.  The Church of Jerusalem founding a Church here would be like starting a Church in Athens or Moscow - it's not your Archdiocese, so don't do it, especially without asking permission of the diocese present there.  Get off your high horse and come back to reality - they're making themselves part of the problem, even if they have the best of intentions.

The disunity is the banning of OCA clergy by the GOA in Canada. 

Really?  (By the way: there is no "GOA" in Canada... It's the Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Toronto and All Canada, or GOMTAC)

While we have hierarchs that are politicians rather than shepherds, all the fine discussion and fiery speeches will amount to nothing.  We have unity in the Eucharist - what more do we want? 

Lol.  Politicians?  Most of them are poor politicians.  They're shepherds for the most part (at least in my experience), you just don't experience it because you've decided to be disconnected.

I for one don't want a clean-shaven bishop who is too lazy to serve a complete service - no thanks rather have old fashioned Russian vladika.

That's your stumbling block?  So you'd not attend a church if that's what you've found, even if there's only one Orthodox jurisdiction in the U.S.? Too lazy to serve a complete service?  Where do you find that?  Please, enlighten me, wise one...
Title: Re: Eucharistic Community & Unity: Achieving Both( Met. KALLISTOS) 2/19/08 Detroit
Post by: Starlight on January 27, 2008, 09:21:11 PM
Lol.  The Church of Jerusalem founding a Church here would be like starting a Church in Athens or Moscow - it's not your Archdiocese, so don't do it, especially without asking permission of the diocese present there. 
As the matter of fact, Mr. Philaret Denysenko (KP) "ordained to episcopacy" and appointed "the Exarch" to Athens a couple of years ago. Personally, of course, I was shocked by this action. And, by all means, did not support that absurd at all.


They're shepherds for the most part (at least in my experience),

In North America (but not limited to North America) it has been my experience as well.
Title: Re: Eucharistic Community & Unity: Achieving Both( Met. KALLISTOS) 2/19/08 Detro
Post by: observer on January 27, 2008, 11:37:13 PM
The reaction to my post is I believe an American problem of identity.  There is a longing for real 'American' Orthodoxy which I think  (as a wise one) is a red herring.  All jurisdictions could be represented like a kind of UN.  Antioch could veto the EP and the OCA could veto the MP/ROCOR alliance.  Why not JP for the mix?   If most of you have found your bishop's to be shepherds, - than glory to God for that.  For my part I have found it to be different.   Should the Bulgarians, Serbs and Romanians be sent packing?  Why are they in the US anyway? And as for the Ukranians, well not mention them in light of Russia imperialism.

In my experience, people come to a parish to find a spiritual home.  I have certainly found one.  St Seraphim Sarovsky said in the last times that most bishops will be apostates - so it's a good idea to check who your shepherd is, unless ofcourse you are happy with your brand of Orthodoxy and don't care what others think.  I only posted here because you lot (whoever your are) can't mind your own business.
Title: Re: Eucharistic Community & Unity: Achieving Both( Met. KALLISTOS) 2/19/08 Detro
Post by: arimethea on January 28, 2008, 12:47:57 AM
As the matter of fact, Mr. Philaret Denysenko (KP) "ordained to episcopacy" and appointed "the Exarch" to Athens a couple of years ago.
Are you sure he is not one of the Ambassador positions. In Athens, Moscow and Damascus there are representatives present from other Patriarchates. They are there at the invitations of the resident Bishop and are often given property much like an Embassy.

I know in Damascus there is an Archimandrite from Russia, and priest from Athens, Romania and Serbia. In Moscow the representatives from Athens and Antioch are both Bishops and America (OCA) is an Archimandrite. Last I knew in Athens it was an Archimandrite from Russia and a deacon from Antioch. 
Title: Re: Eucharistic Community & Unity: Achieving Both( Met. KALLISTOS) 2/19/08 Detro
Post by: Tamara on January 28, 2008, 03:35:12 AM
The reaction to my post is I believe an American problem of identity.  There is a longing for real 'American' Orthodoxy which I think  (as a wise one) is a red herring.  All jurisdictions could be represented like a kind of UN.  Antioch could veto the EP and the OCA could veto the MP/ROCOR alliance.  Why not JP for the mix?   If most of you have found your bishop's to be shepherds, - than glory to God for that.  For my part I have found it to be different.   Should the Bulgarians, Serbs and Romanians be sent packing?  Why are they in the US anyway? And as for the Ukranians, well not mention them in light of Russia imperialism.

In my experience, people come to a parish to find a spiritual home.  I have certainly found one.  St Seraphim Sarovsky said in the last times that most bishops will be apostates - so it's a good idea to check who your shepherd is, unless ofcourse you are happy with your brand of Orthodoxy and don't care what others think.  I only posted here because you lot (whoever your are) can't mind your own business.

The reaction to my post is I believe an American problem of identity.  There is a longing for real 'American' Orthodoxy which I think  (as a wise one) is a red herring.  All jurisdictions could be represented like a kind of UN.  Antioch could veto the EP and the OCA could veto the MP/ROCOR alliance.  Why not JP for the mix?   If most of you have found your bishop's to be shepherds, - than glory to God for that.  For my part I have found it to be different.   Should the Bulgarians, Serbs and Romanians be sent packing?  Why are they in the US anyway? And as for the Ukranians, well not mention them in light of Russia imperialism.

In my experience, people come to a parish to find a spiritual home.  I have certainly found one.  St Seraphim Sarovsky said in the last times that most bishops will be apostates - so it's a good idea to check who your shepherd is, unless ofcourse you are happy with your brand of Orthodoxy and don't care what others think.  I only posted here because you lot (whoever your are) can't mind your own business.

Dear Observer,

I am a little confused. You get upset if a bishop doesn't have a beard, which I assume means you hold Orthodox tradition in high regard, yet you propose a sort of UN for canonical Orthodoxy which is a complete break and an innovation of our Orthodox tradition of ecclesiology.  ???  ???  ???

Why shouldn't Orthodoxy be governed here in the same manner which has worked for a thousand years in Russia, Greece, Romania, Serbia...do I need to go on?
Title: Re: Eucharistic Community & Unity: Achieving Both( Met. KALLISTOS) 2/19/08 Detro
Post by: Αριστοκλής on January 28, 2008, 07:03:23 AM
Great...another self-ordained "wise one"- we already have a couple. And another beard thread... :-\
Title: Re: Eucharistic Community & Unity: Achieving Both( Met. KALLISTOS) 2/19/08 Detro
Post by: Tamara on January 28, 2008, 11:23:58 AM
Great...another self-ordained "wise one"- we already have a couple. And another beard thread... :-\
  ;) :)

Title: Re: Eucharistic Community & Unity: Achieving Both( Met. KALLISTOS) 2/19/08 Detro
Post by: PeterTheAleut on January 29, 2008, 01:47:18 AM
The JP was responsible for mission in US in the 1920s and handed over its parishes to the newly formed GOA.  That JP is back is good for America.  I believe that is good for US to have as many canonical churches as possible and not to quibble over who is going to get the biggest slice of the cake.  Let's keep globalism out of Orthodoxy.  I personally love unity in diversity.
Ya know, observer, in the end it doesn't matter one iota what you want, for one bishop per region is the canonical norm, making our current overlapping jurisdictions an uncanonical and unacceptable situation.
Title: Re: Eucharistic Community & Unity: Achieving Both( Met. KALLISTOS) 2/19/08 Detro
Post by: Starlight on January 30, 2008, 11:25:07 PM
Are you sure he is not one of the Ambassador positions. In Athens, Moscow and Damascus there are representatives present from other Patriarchates. They are there at the invitations of the resident Bishop and are often given property much like an Embassy.

I know in Damascus there is an Archimandrite from Russia, and priest from Athens, Romania and Serbia. In Moscow the representatives from Athens and Antioch are both Bishops and America (OCA) is an Archimandrite. Last I knew in Athens it was an Archimandrite from Russia and a deacon from Antioch. 

Dear Arimethea,
Generally you are totally correct regarding hierarchs and priest in ambassador positions. Also, an Archimandrite of Serbian Orthodox Patriarchate in Moscow serving in that status has been ordained to the episcopacy with continuation of present duties.
In the case of Chrysostomos Bakomitros, he has served at the Church of Greece and then at the Patriarchate of Alexandria, ended up joining a non-canonical group without a proper canonical release and as a part of this group joined the Patriarchate of Kyiv. After the death of his superior "Metroploitan" Timothy Kutalianos (spelling?) (1942-2004), Mr. Chrysostomos has been ordained and appointed an Exarch. Unfortunately, in 1998 Mr. Philaret Denysenko came up with the idea of "two independent self-fulfilling families of Orthodox Churches". That idea targeted a creation of (2) independent systems within Orthodoxy, when the communion supposed to exist within each family / system, but not between them. While many people within KP did not like that demagogy, the leadership of KP never denounced such plan. On the other hand such plans are not broadcasted for a long time now.
Chrysostomos Bakomitros is not in communion with the Church of Greece and his appointment has been viewed in Athens as a canonical violation. On the contrary, clergy and laity of UOC-USA (EP) and UOCC (EP) are greatly welcomed in Greece. For example, Bishop Hilarion (Rudnik) of Telmissos, an auxilairy hierarch in Portugal of the Metropolis of Spain and Portugal of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, who may be soon canonically transfered to UOCC, in 1990s had served at Patriarchal monastery Vlatadon in Greece in the rank of the Hierodeacon.
There is still a hope that healthier forces within KP will take over some day, but after the death of Metropolitan Daniel Chokaliuk (1958-2005) that seems more problematic. He was in KP, but he possessed a different vision.
Sorry for the long message out of the major topic.