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Moderated Forums => Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion => Orthodox-Catholic Discussion => Topic started by: Anastasios on April 22, 2003, 10:16:11 AM

Title: Reason for Forum Name Change
Post by: Anastasios on April 22, 2003, 10:16:11 AM
I changed the forum name mainly because in the "10 most recent posts" it made it stretch too far.  I added the asterisk and footnote for our participants who have had a problem with identifying Roman Catholics as simply Catholics when they feel that they too are entitled to be called Catholics (ie Orthodox Catholics).  We've debated the issues here several times though so if you want to comment on the name change (I am still open to other names) please do not turn it into a thread on the relative merits of the term Catholic.

Thanks!

anastasios
Title: Re:Reason for Forum Name Change
Post by: The young fogey on April 22, 2003, 01:53:10 PM
Thanks, anastasios - just noticed the change now. I was going to suggest it! We all know what big-C Catholic means, and the hothead who made a federal case out of it (because, IMO, he was insanely jealous of the Catholic Church for some reason - unlike born Orthodox I know in person) is now gone, so there's no more 'need' to walk on eggshells and use ridiculous long qualifiers every time one uses the word.
Title: Re:Reason for Forum Name Change
Post by: SamB on April 22, 2003, 02:22:01 PM
I suggested it a couple of times.  Believe me, it sounded too cliquish, and was simply akward.  Thanks for cutting the fat off the meat, so to speak.

In IC XC
Samer
Title: Re:Reason for Forum Name Change
Post by: Azarus on April 22, 2003, 05:19:43 PM
Sorry, but being a bit new to this particular board, I'm confused.  Maybe you can clear it up for me.

The title of this section of the board is "Orthodox-Catholic* Discussion", and the explaination is ...

"Discuss in charity issues uniting and dividing the Orthodox Church and the Roman/Eastern Catholic Churches. (*in Communion with Rome)."

So is this section of the board to discuss differences between the Roman rite and the other rites within the Catholic Church.  Or is this section of the board to discuss differences (uniting and dividing) the Catholic Church(es) and the "Orthodox" Church(es) (ie. Greek Orthodox)?

If another thread on this board will explain the need for the change, I'd be happy to read it, if someone will direct me.

Thank you,

Azarus
Title: Re:Reason for Forum Name Change
Post by: David on April 22, 2003, 05:25:46 PM
Azarus, it's not quite that complicated. :)

We had a former member who had a big grudge against Roman and Byzantine Catholics.  He insisted on calling himself an Orthodox Catholic and said that just calling the forum Orthodox-Catholic Discussion was unfair in that Orthodox were catholic too.  To accomodate this member we made a terrifically long forum name and had endless arguments about this just about anytime someone used the term Catholic to refer exclusively to those in communion with the Pope(ie Roman Catholics, Byzantine Catholics, etc).  

Since that particular poster decided to leave the board a couple of months ago, the admins felt it could go back to an easier-to-understand title.  I hope that clears it up!
Title: Re:Reason for Forum Name Change
Post by: The young fogey on April 22, 2003, 05:26:23 PM
It's about differences between the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church. My guess is discussion of different parts of the Catholic Church would go under Free-For-All.
Title: Re:Reason for Forum Name Change
Post by: Azarus on April 22, 2003, 06:08:37 PM
Thanks, I think that clears it up.

But ...

So this is to discuss differences between Catholic groups (as opposed to Christian groups that could include protestants, et.al.) post-"Great Schism", right?

Thanks again.

Azarus
Title: Re:Reason for Forum Name Change
Post by: James the Just on April 22, 2003, 06:28:32 PM
I don't have a problem with the name change, of course I prefer Orthodox & Eastern/Roman Catholic Forum,the Eastern Catholics prefer some seperation from their Latin brethern which is another dilemma, latin paranoia I guess.

James

Title: Re:Reason for Forum Name Change
Post by: The young fogey on April 22, 2003, 06:34:47 PM
Dear Azarus,

Quote
So this is to discuss differences between Catholic groups (as opposed to Christian groups that could include protestants, et.al.) post-"Great Schism", right?

You could put it that way, but since we all agree that common English usage has 'Catholic' meaning 'the church under the Pope', a better catchall word for these ancient churches is 'apostolic'. Also, AFAIK this folder wasn't set up to discuss differences between Orthodox and Oriental Churches (Copts, Ethiopians, Armenians, Syrians and Malankara), Orthodox and Assyrians, Orientals and Assyrians, Catholics and Orientals, or Catholics and Assyrians. (You see what I'm getting at.) It was set up to compare the Orthodox (the working definition of this board is that all nonpapal Eastern churches - Eastern Orthodox, Orientals and Assyrians - are Orthodox) and Catholic churches.

While sharing a lot of the Orthodox tradition, Byzantine and other Eastern Catholics aren't in the Orthodox churches but the Catholic Church, so my guess is discussions solely about them and comparing them to the Roman Rite would belong in another folder.

Jacobus wrote:

Quote
I don't have a problem with the name change, of course I prefer Orthodox & Eastern/Roman Catholic Forum,the Eastern Catholics prefer some seperation from their Latin brethern which is another dilemma, latin paranoia I guess.

Too complicated IMO. Sure, they prefer some separation, because 'Catholic' is often construed by the common man as = 'Roman Catholic', but enough's enough. 'Catholic' is good enough as a catchall.
Title: Re:Reason for Forum Name Change
Post by: Anastasios on April 22, 2003, 06:42:12 PM
Azarus,

The forum is a place to discuss differences between:

The Orthodox Church  ----and----      The Catholic Church
                                                   (both Eastern and
                                                    Western Rites)

How did you get that the forum was a place for inter-Catholic dialogue, when the asterisk is only on the word Catholic?

anastasios
Title: Re:Reason for Forum Name Change
Post by: The young fogey on April 22, 2003, 06:44:04 PM
I can't speak for Azarus but I think he is using the word 'Catholic' differently from the way we agree common usage defines it - he's using it the way we use 'apostolic'. (I used to do that too but it confused too many people.)
Title: Re:Reason for Forum Name Change
Post by: James the Just on April 22, 2003, 06:47:25 PM
In my experience if you say Catholic the vast majority of people think Roman Catholic, I was ignorant of the fact 9 months ago, I did not know the existance of the Eastern Catholics, although I knew the existence of the Orthodox Church.

James
Title: Re:Reason for Forum Name Change
Post by: Asteriktos on April 22, 2003, 06:57:52 PM
I think the name is fine. Though I thought the other one was fine. *shrugs*  :reading:
Title: Re:Reason for Forum Name Change
Post by: Anastasios on April 22, 2003, 07:22:28 PM
Again, the only reason I decided to change it after 7 months was so that it wouldn't get the topics in "10 most recent threads" out of wack.

anastasios
Title: Re:Reason for Forum Name Change
Post by: Linus7 on April 22, 2003, 09:17:01 PM
I understand the reason for the name change. I agree with it because in common parlance Catholic usually means Roman Catholic.

But I think common parlance is a shame, because when we read the Church Fathers the word Catholic is not used or limited in that way.

However, reality is what it is . . .

A couple of years ago there was an older man of a particular ethnic background in our parish who objected to the fact that we had the word Catholic in the name of our Church. I thought it was silly, but it shows that even some Orthodox misunderstand that word.

Title: Re:Reason for Forum Name Change
Post by: Asteriktos on April 23, 2003, 11:00:39 AM
I prefer to use the term Latin Catholic when I can, and a number of conservative Catholics that I've talked with also like this term. Unfortunately, too often people seem to take "Latin" as though it's meant in a derogatory way. Admittedly, it would have been more applicable last century than it is now.
Title: Re:Reason for Forum Name Change
Post by: Nigula Qian Zishi on April 23, 2003, 11:35:35 AM
True. Latin Catholic Church is the official name, but everyone calls it Roman Catholic.
Title: Re:Reason for Forum Name Change
Post by: Azarus on April 23, 2003, 11:54:52 AM
Thanks for the clarification.

Anastasios,

Serge had it right when he said, "... he is using the word 'Catholic' differently from the way we agree common usage defines it - he's using it the way we use 'apostolic'."

And, when Jacobus posted, "In my experience if you say Catholic the vast majority of people think Roman Catholic, I was ignorant of the fact 9 months ago, I did not know the existance of the Eastern Catholics, although I knew the existence of the Orthodox Church."  

I was in the "same boat" until about 1-1 1/2 years ago.  I thought the Roman Catholic church was the only "Catholic" church.  To further confuse the issue, there are several "Catholic" churches that are not in union with Rome and have NEVER been in union with Rome, and further do not share the apostolic succession, but they still claim the name "Catholic".

Anyway, thanks again, I understand.

Azarus
Title: Re:Reason for Forum Name Change
Post by: Αριστοκλής on April 23, 2003, 12:57:23 PM
I believe that the name change is symptomatic of a perception problem our church endures from "outsiders". And that some of the confusion IS self-inflicted. Bishop Kallistos(Ware) states that the canonical name of the Orthodox Church is "Holy Orthodox Catholic Church of the East". Although I cannot find this in the Rudder, it obviously applies to the the remaining four patriarchs of the original Pentarchy who remained true to the "One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church". Moreover, the canonical name of the Russian Orthodox Church is "Holy Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church". I attend an "American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church" (yes, former uniates, very refreshing to this old Greek!).
It's no wonder we lean to short quick nomenclature such as "Orthodox" and "Catholic". I have often dreamed of the outright fear with which certain other "Christianesque" demoninations might greet our calling ourselves "Orthodox Catholic". I mention this because over that last few months I have used this term in mixed company and gotten reactions different than that when describing myself as "Greek" or "Russian" or "Eastern" Orthodox. I understand the "Orthodox" is a pre-schism term applied at  an earlier time to the whole church - east and west- to distinguish the Church from heresies such as arianism. We have allowed the RC's to ursurp the term Catholic. No?
Please forgive this lengthy post, my first.
Title: Re:Reason for Forum Name Change
Post by: The young fogey on April 23, 2003, 01:02:44 PM
I understand that before the estrangement of the Byzantines from the Latins, the Latins in the one Chalcedonian Church already were called 'Catholics' and the Byzantines in it 'Orthodox'.
Title: Re:Reason for Forum Name Change
Post by: Αριστοκλής on April 23, 2003, 01:25:02 PM
You may be correct, Serge. And then we both may be correct.  I think we are assuming the at that time each "side" consistently applied the same terms to refer both to themselves AND the other side. Note that the term "Orthodox" seems a pre-Chalcedonian term from the Oriental  Orthodox Churches' use of the same name.
And I have read in non-Orthodox, non-church related histories of others questioning why the Eastern Churches allowed the Roman Church seemingly uncontested use of the term "Catholic".
Back to the "books" for more learin' :)
Title: Re:Reason for Forum Name Change
Post by: Azarus on April 23, 2003, 01:30:53 PM
... it obviously applies to the the remaining four patriarchs of the original Pentarchy who remained true to the "One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church".

 ;D 'dems fighten words.  ;D

J/K

And, of course us "Romans" think we are the ones who remianed the true "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic" Church.

(Just trying to bring a bit of levity.)

Azarus
Title: Re:Reason for Forum Name Change
Post by: The young fogey on April 23, 2003, 01:32:15 PM
We're both right. Both sides also used both words for the whole Church. Patristic writings refer to the Catholic Church, the official names of several Eastern Churches (that weren't ever Eastern Catholic) have the C word in them, and the Canon (anaphora, consecration prayer) of the traditional Roman Catholic Mass prays for 'all the orthodox'.
Title: Re:Reason for Forum Name Change
Post by: Αριστοκλής on April 23, 2003, 01:44:33 PM
Thanks, Serge- that was fast. I didn't have a chance to even get to my library in the next room!

And to my friend, Azarus:
Are you aware that even in today's Hellas (Greece) the citizens still refer to themselves as "Romans" as they did in the days of the Empire?
Levity is fine and welcomed. "Grace" is the difficult task.
Title: Re:Reason for Forum Name Change
Post by: Azarus on April 23, 2003, 01:49:03 PM
And to my friend, Azarus:
Are you aware that even in today's Hellas (Greece) the citizens still refer to themselves as "Romans" as they did in the days of the Empire?
Levity is fine and welcomed. "Grace" is the difficult task.

 ;) Yea, but you know how THOSE Greeks are .... :D

Azarus
Title: Re:Reason for Forum Name Change
Post by: Azarus on April 23, 2003, 01:50:05 PM
Levity is fine and welcomed. "Grace" is the difficult task.

What do you mean "Grace is the difficult task.

"Bless us oh lord, and these thy gifts ..."

Azarus
Title: Re:Reason for Forum Name Change
Post by: Αριστοκλής on April 23, 2003, 01:57:50 PM
Yes, I do know "how those Greeks are". And seeking God's Grace is difficult enough without symmatical issues clouding the journey.
Man, are we "off-topic" here, or what? This belongs in Beliefnet's "Challenge" Forum.
Title: Re:Reason for Forum Name Change
Post by: Linus7 on April 23, 2003, 08:34:20 PM
Aristocles -

I'm in the ACROD, too! Small world! ;D

I also like the title Catholic in the name of our Diocese.
Title: Re:Reason for Forum Name Change
Post by: Αριστοκλής on April 23, 2003, 10:10:26 PM
Linus7,
 Smaller than you know. I'm a "native" Virginian transplanted to PA.
Our Metropolitan Nicholas will be the guest speaker on "Come Receive The Light" this Saturday.
http://www.receive.org  10AM

Kalo Pascha
Aristocles
Title: Re:Reason for Forum Name Change
Post by: Mexican on April 24, 2003, 12:57:46 AM
I think the forum name change is cool, after all many recent posts have dealt with issues of the Western Church ;) and the Ecumenical dialogues.

Quote
Moreover, the canonical name of the Russian Orthodox Church is "Holy Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church".

I am not really sure but I think this title corresponds for the Church in America, but I don't think it's the name of the Church in Russia  :reading:

I know that the Assyrian Church's name is "Holy Catholic Apostolic Assyrian Church of the East."
Most Churches use both terms Orthodox and catholic.

Do you know if the Roman Church has ever used the title "Orthodox"?

Quote
Aristocles -

I'm in the ACROD, too! Small world!

I also like the title Catholic in the name of our Diocese.

Cool, I think the ACROD is a very lovely juridiction because of their founders love for Orthodoxy and also for their Byzantine Catholic origin, and for the courage they had to place themselves with the Ecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople avoiding the problems of pan-slavism and canonical disputes.
Title: Re:Reason for Forum Name Change
Post by: Linus7 on April 24, 2003, 12:38:02 PM
Linus7,
 Smaller than you know. I'm a "native" Virginian transplanted to PA.
Our Metropolitan Nicholas will be the guest speaker on "Come Receive The Light" this Saturday.
http://www.receive.org  10AM

Kalo Pascha
Aristocles

Cool! 8)

The Metropolitan is a great guy. He was at our Church in February for our 10th anniversary and the ordination of one of our deacons to the priesthood.

He likes to chat with my wife in Russian. My wife's mother is from the same part of western Ukraine that the Metropolitan's family came from.
Title: Re:Reason for Forum Name Change
Post by: Gregory on April 24, 2003, 01:00:39 PM
I had the pleasure of meeting Metropolitan Nicholas at my godson's baptism/chrismation at the ACROD seminary. He was very welcoming and very engaging.

When I mentioned that I was a member of this forum, he almost fell out of his Episcopal chair. He is also a big fan and a member - I think his screen name is BUZZARD.

Greg
Title: Re:Reason for Forum Name Change
Post by: Linus7 on April 24, 2003, 07:36:34 PM
Greg -

Are you sure?

I think the Buzzard we have is a Fundamentalist Protestant invited here from another web site by Catholicious. In fact, I believe he just registered two days ago.

For now the onscreen identity of the Metropolitan remains a mystery, something I think he would appreciate! ;D
Title: Re:Reason for Forum Name Change
Post by: Gregory on April 25, 2003, 08:38:36 AM
Linus --

Sorry, Met. Nicholas does not know about our beloved forum...I least I believe he does not.

Greg
Title: Re:Reason for Forum Name Change
Post by: Linus7 on April 25, 2003, 03:31:57 PM
Sorry, Greg. I am a little slow sometimes. I should have recognized the humor. ;D

Excuse me, please.