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Mo the Ethio
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« on: June 18, 2006, 08:04:50 PM »

I just finished reading "The Fall of Constantinople" by Steven Runciman. Within the text are multiple accounts of the Sultan Mehmet engaging in acts of homosexuality.
 Is this something that is condoned by the Quaran ?  Or is this deviant behavior outside of their ( Muslims) dogma? E.A. and Gic ( and whoever else) please give me some insight on this.
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« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2006, 08:18:32 PM »

it's the deviant behavior in Turkish society
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« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2006, 08:33:06 PM »

Islam has permitted pederasty, and in its scriptures one of the things promised to the righteous in the hereafter are "boys like fine pearls".
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« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2006, 08:44:50 PM »

I just finished reading "The Fall of Constantinople" by Steven Runciman. Within the text are multiple accounts of the Sultan Mehmet engaging in acts of homosexuality.

I don't think Mehmet was the only Sultan who had such tastes. The same goes for many wealthy and powerful men throughout history in the Middle and Far East. (The Greeks get plenty of coverage in this regard, but boy-oh-boy do they pale in comparison to the Asians.)
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« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2006, 08:57:02 PM »

Islam has permitted pederasty, and in its scriptures one of the things promised to the righteous in the hereafter are "boys like fine pearls".

I've certainly never read any such thing in any surah, but who knows? At any rate, you make a good distinction, which I meant to make in my last post. Pederasty is the name of the game in all of these cultures, not homosexuality per se, the latter of which usually got even the most powerful and wealthy people killed. One could indulge in young boys as one could indulge in fine wines or special fish pastes; but evince affection for men or avoid women, and that which was excused as indulgence became a perverted affront to the res publica (or its equivalent).
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« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2006, 08:59:37 PM »

In the Koran and Hadith, homosexuality and especially pederasty (sex with young boys) is considered to be a natural desire even more powerful than heterosexual desire. However, while the Koran seems to emphatically condemn homosexuality it speaks about the faithful having young boys in heaven.

Queer Jihad, once called the Muslim Homosexual Resource Center, estimates that there are about 50 million gay and lesbian Muslims in the world. The number appears reasonable; it would include about 5% of the total membership of the Islamic faith.

This is from wiki:

The practice of pederasty in the Islamic world began sometime during the 800s and ended, at least as an open practice, in the mid-19th century. Throughout this era, pederastic relationships, poetry, art and spirituality were found throughout Islamic cultures from Moorish Spain to Northern India. The forms of this pederasty ranged from the chaste and spiritual adoration of youths at one extreme, to the violent and forcible use of unwilling boys at other. While sodomy was considered a major sin, other aspects of same-sex relations were not, though they were problematized to various degrees at various times and places.
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« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2006, 09:19:12 PM »

I don't think Mehmet was the only Sultan who had such tastes. The same goes for many wealthy and powerful men throughout history in the Middle and Far East. (The Greeks get plenty of coverage in this regard, but boy-oh-boy do they pale in comparison to the Asians.)

WAIT!

Asian here...

I do not like doing people in the wrong end. Thats more for the Altaic peoples. like Japanese and Turks and Mongols and Manchus. and Tree Climbing aboriginal Southeast asians like Cambodians, Vietnamese, Indonesians, etc.

I'm Chinese..
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« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2006, 09:24:25 PM »

In the Koran and Hadith, homosexuality and especially pederasty (sex with young boys) is considered to be a natural desire even more powerful than heterosexual desire.

Do you mean that the Koran says "homosexuality and especially pederasty are very powerful natural desires" or "homosexuality and especially pederasty are very powerful natural desires and Allah therefore invites you to indulge in them"? Because those are two very different things. From what I remember of the Koran, the text discusses pederastic desires rather explicitly, most especially in an expanded version of the story of Lot, in which the pederastic desires of the sinful people are directed at the young and comely angelic visitors. Thus, the Koran portrays such attraction as quite powerful, but it does so in order to condemn it.

It seems to me (based on my limited reading of the Koran) that the text recognizes that pederasty is very common in (Arab) society, but it does not encourage or even condone this prevalence. In fact, I recall some surah in which the text indicates that any man who actually acts upon his desires for fine young boys commits grave sin, a sin which is naturally evident since the man thereby wastes seed.

Quote
However, while the Koran seems to emphatically condemn homosexuality it speaks about the faithful having young boys in heaven.

I think this may be out of our league, since we don't know classical Arabic, but many Muslim scholars throughout the centuries have rejected this interpretation.

(As I had originally mentioned and then deleted from my first post, shariah calls for the immediate execution of homosexuals.)
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« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2006, 09:40:52 PM »

I do not like doing people in the wrong end. Thats more for the Altaic peoples. like Japanese and Turks and Mongols and Manchus. and Tree Climbing aboriginal Southeast asians like Cambodians, Vietnamese, Indonesians, etc.

Balanced as always. Wink sdcheung is to oc.net what Ann Coulter is to William F. Buckley.

Ever read much about the Han dynasty or the "cut sleeve"?
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« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2006, 09:51:52 PM »

Balanced as always. Wink sdcheung is to oc.net what Ann Coulter is to William F. Buckley.

Ever read much about the Han dynasty or the "cut sleeve"?

So your taking a bunch of ppl from an obsolete dynasty and broadbrushing the entire culture?
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« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2006, 10:07:00 PM »

So your taking a bunch of ppl from an obsolete dynasty and broadbrushing the entire culture?

Wouldn't be any worse than you calling Vietnamese tree climbers. Look, that last post of yours was racist man and you need to tone it down. I don't care personally what you think about other Asians but do us the favor of not stereotyping an entire ethnicity.

Anastasios
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« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2006, 10:12:17 PM »

Wouldn't be any worse than you calling Vietnamese tree climbers. Look, that last post of yours was racist man and you need to tone it down. I don't care personally what you think about other Asians but do us the favor of not stereotyping an entire ethnicity.

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but have you seen how many trees exist in se asia man? Except for the trees murdered by agent orange Wink
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« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2006, 11:03:14 PM »

anyway....is homosexuality condoned either in Islamic "Scripture" or Tradition?
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« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2006, 11:36:29 PM »

It depends ... the straight forward answer would be NO, and it would be supported by many "patristic" islamic writings from the second century of Islam in which the studies of islamic sharia and laws flourished in Bagdad, Damascus and Basrah. However, many accounts in references that muslims consider authoritive and are asked to follow it without discrimination indicate a contradiction with the islamic official position about the matter.

Many of the islamic Khalifs of different dynasties and different ages have engaged in homosexual activities, although I would not take it as evidence that Islam condones such behavior. Actions of people should not be taken as references. Among those would be Al-Watheque, Al-Ameen, Yazeed, Al-Mu'taseem, and many others. One of the most notable arabic poets EL-Mutanabee is known to be an open homosexual.

However, the question of islamic doctrines is not easy to study and needs really a heavy comparative in depth treatment of various authentic references to come up with an idea about what really happened. From a non-islamic perspective, Islam is tied up with politics of the arabic penninsula at the time and with various cultural factors. The prophet, a genius and a master politician, honed all that into various doctrines which contradiction is obvious but did not raise concerns among his followers because they understood the nature of his mission in clarity that is not present for the muslims in this age. The prophet moved from one doctrine to its opposite with ease to appease certain groups.

Take another example:
One of the issues that separates the Sunnahs from the Shias is something called " The marriage of pleasure". It is a permit to have sex with a woman or a man from a certain period of time for a certain amount of money and then it is over without any further obligations from both partners. It was allowed in the Prophet's time and both sides agree on this issue. Where they disagree is whether it was allowed on a temporary basis and then totally forbidden or whether it continued. The Sunnahs believe it to be like adultry and that it was only a temporary permit for the friends of Muhamed on a war mission to have sex with women because they left their wives home, whereas the Shias do not believe it got cancelled at all and still practice it.

When you read arguments from both sides, you come up with the natural conclusion about what caused this confusion. The "pleasure marriage" got permitted and cancelled on seven different occasion as documented by islamic history books, and the question becomes whether the last decision on this "marriage" by Allah was a permission or annullment.

It is never a straight forward answer, and that is why so many fatwas appear that are contradicting but yet supported by various authentic islamic sources. One of the most interesting religions to study.
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« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2006, 11:51:32 PM »

It depends ... the straight forward answer would be NO, and it would be supported by many "patristic" islamic writings from the second century of Islam in which the studies of islamic sharia and laws flourished in Bagdad, Damascus and Basrah. However, many accounts in references that muslims consider authoritive and are asked to follow it without discrimination indicate a contradiction with the islamic official position about the matter.

Many of the islamic Khalifs of different dynasties and different ages have engaged in homosexual activities, although I would not take it as evidence that Islam condones such behavior. Actions of people should not be taken as references. Among those would be Al-Watheque, Al-Ameen, Yazeed, Al-Mu'taseem, and many others. One of the most notable arabic poets EL-Mutanabee is known to be an open homosexual.

However, the question of islamic doctrines is not easy to study and needs really a heavy comparative in depth treatment of various authentic references to come up with an idea about what really happened. From a non-islamic perspective, Islam is tied up with politics of the arabic penninsula at the time and with various cultural factors. The prophet, a genius and a master politician, honed all that into various doctrines which contradiction is obvious but did not raise concerns among his followers because they understood the nature of his mission in clarity that is not present for the muslims in this age. The prophet moved from one doctrine to its opposite with ease to appease certain groups.

Take another example:
One of the issues that separates the Sunnahs from the Shias is something called " The marriage of pleasure". It is a permit to have sex with a woman or a man from a certain period of time for a certain amount of money and then it is over without any further obligations from both partners. It was allowed in the Prophet's time and both sides agree on this issue. Where they disagree is whether it was allowed on a temporary basis and then totally forbidden or whether it continued. The Sunnahs believe it to be like adultry and that it was only a temporary permit for the friends of Muhamed on a war mission to have sex with women because they left their wives home, whereas the Shias do not believe it got cancelled at all and still practice it.

When you read arguments from both sides, you come up with the natural conclusion about what caused this confusion. The "pleasure marriage" got permitted and cancelled on seven different occasion as documented by islamic history books, and the question becomes whether the last decision on this "marriage" by Allah was a permission or annullment.

It is never a straight forward answer, and that is why so many fatwas appear that are contradicting but yet supported by various authentic islamic sources. One of the most interesting religions to study.
It depends ... the straight forward answer would be NO, and it would be supported by many "patristic" islamic writings from the second century of Islam in which the studies of islamic sharia and laws flourished in Bagdad, Damascus and Basrah. However, many accounts in references that muslims consider authoritive and are asked to follow it without discrimination indicate a contradiction with the islamic official position about the matter.

Many of the islamic Khalifs of different dynasties and different ages have engaged in homosexual activities, although I would not take it as evidence that Islam condones such behavior. Actions of people should not be taken as references. Among those would be Al-Watheque, Al-Ameen, Yazeed, Al-Mu'taseem, and many others. One of the most notable arabic poets EL-Mutanabee is known to be an open homosexual.

However, the question of islamic doctrines is not easy to study and needs really a heavy comparative in depth treatment of various authentic references to come up with an idea about what really happened. From a non-islamic perspective, Islam is tied up with politics of the arabic penninsula at the time and with various cultural factors. The prophet, a genius and a master politician, honed all that into various doctrines which contradiction is obvious but did not raise concerns among his followers because they understood the nature of his mission in clarity that is not present for the muslims in this age. The prophet moved from one doctrine to its opposite with ease to appease certain groups.

Take another example:
One of the issues that separates the Sunnahs from the Shias is something called " The marriage of pleasure". It is a permit to have sex with a woman or a man from a certain period of time for a certain amount of money and then it is over without any further obligations from both partners. It was allowed in the Prophet's time and both sides agree on this issue. Where they disagree is whether it was allowed on a temporary basis and then totally forbidden or whether it continued. The Sunnahs believe it to be like adultry and that it was only a temporary permit for the friends of Muhamed on a war mission to have sex with women because they left their wives home, whereas the Shias do not believe it got cancelled at all and still practice it.

When you read arguments from both sides, you come up with the natural conclusion about what caused this confusion. The "pleasure marriage" got permitted and cancelled on seven different occasion as documented by islamic history books, and the question becomes whether the last decision on this "marriage" by Allah was a permission or annullment.

It is never a straight forward answer, and that is why so many fatwas appear that are contradicting but yet supported by various authentic islamic sources. One of the most interesting religions to study.

  Interesting.........Thanks
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« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2006, 08:59:02 AM »

anyway....is homosexuality condoned either in Islamic "Scripture" or Tradition?
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Here's an entry in the Encyclopedia Iranica on homosexuality in Islamic law: http://www.iranica.com/articles/v12f4/v12f4026b.html#Islam
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« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2006, 08:19:11 PM »

Thanks you to everyone for the info.
   
               Moses    +++
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« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2006, 09:07:26 PM »

In the Koran and Hadith, homosexuality and especially pederasty (sex with young boys) is considered to be a natural desire even more powerful than heterosexual desire. However, while the Koran seems to emphatically condemn homosexuality it speaks about the faithful having young boys in heaven.

Queer Jihad, once called the Muslim Homosexual Resource Center, estimates that there are about 50 million gay and lesbian Muslims in the world. The number appears reasonable; it would include about 5% of the total membership of the Islamic faith.

This is from wiki:

The practice of pederasty in the Islamic world began sometime during the 800s and ended, at least as an open practice, in the mid-19th century. Throughout this era, pederastic relationships, poetry, art and spirituality were found throughout Islamic cultures from Moorish Spain to Northern India. The forms of this pederasty ranged from the chaste and spiritual adoration of youths at one extreme, to the violent and forcible use of unwilling boys at other. While sodomy was considered a major sin, other aspects of same-sex relations were not, though they were problematized to various degrees at various times and places.


The Islamic definition of Homosexuality is different from the Christian one in many ways.......
In Islamic (Particularly Arab Muslim cultures) The one considered a homosexual is the receiver of the sexual act, and not the giver. (I'm trying to avoid being vulgar here) in other words, the one who acts the role of the female is the homosexual in  Islamic culture. This sort of Islamic legalism frees the Muslim male to have sexual encounters at his leisure, as long as he is playing ghe part of the male, without incurring any guilt, or committing any "sin" according to Islamic teachings.
 Strange but true!  I have spent a great deal of time among Muslims in the Middle East, and find this practice to be abominable, but nonetheless rampant. In certain Muslim countries (Egypt for one) their is even a provision in the military for effeminate homosexuals, as part of a squad sized element.
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« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2006, 08:21:45 PM »


The Islamic definition of Homosexuality is different from the Christian one in many ways.......
In Islamic (Particularly Arab Muslim cultures) The one considered a homosexual is the receiver of the sexual act, and not the giver. (I'm trying to avoid being vulgar here) in other words, the one who acts the role of the female is the homosexual inÂÂ  Islamic culture. This sort of Islamic legalism frees the Muslim male to have sexual encounters at his leisure, as long as he is playing gGEpart of the male, without incurring any guilt, or committing any "sin" according to Islamic teachings.
 Strange but true!ÂÂ  I have spent a great deal of time among Muslims in the Middle East, and find this practice to be abominable, but nonetheless rampant. In certain Muslim countries (Egypt for one) their is even a provision in the military for effeminate homosexuals, as part of a squad sized element.

   So,what you are saying is , Islam uses legalistic loopholes to oblige homosexuality?
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« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2006, 09:23:14 PM »

While working at a certain prison in Iraq it was a common thing to catch detainees in homosexual acts, especially teen agers. This was a disciplinary problem. It is very true that Islam views this behavior somewhat different than Christianity.
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« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2006, 01:53:23 AM »

so basically........Muslims can be closet homosexuals within context of Islam....as long as they are the giver and not the receiver.......right?
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« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2006, 05:15:32 AM »

Since this topic was resurrected, something of relevance I came across this evening from http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/Death_to_Islam :

Quote
The relevant verses from the Koran are:

Koran 52:24
Round about them will serve, to them, boys (handsome) as pearls well-guarded.

Koran 56:17
Round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness.

Koran 76:19
And round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness: if thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered pearls.



As mentioned in my previous article, famous poets in Arabia glorified homosexuality. As an example I am including a poem in 'Perfumed Garden' by Abu Nuwas:
O the joy of sodomy!
So now be sodomites, you Arabs.
Turn not away from it--
therein is wondrous pleasure.
Take some coy lad with kiss-curls
twisting on his temple
and ride as he stands like some gazelle
standing to her mate.
A lad whom all can see girt with sword
and belt not like your whore who has
to go veiled.
Make for smooth-faced boys and do your
very best to mount them, for women are
the mounts of the devils.

Wonderful poem, isn't it...that's the true islam.
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« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2006, 12:49:01 AM »

I haven't heard this much talk on homosexuality since I worked in the West Village.   Grin
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