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Author Topic: Moscow's First Gay Pride Parade Disrupted by Police and Hecklers  (Read 40469 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 29, 2006, 05:01:10 AM »

Moscow's First Gay Pride Parade Disrupted by Police and Hecklers

By Peter Finn
Washington Post Foreign Service
Sunday, May 28, 2006; A16

MOSCOW, May 27 -- Riot police broke up an attempt by gays and lesbians to stage Moscow's first gay pride parade Saturday. Gay activists who attempted to lay flowers near the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier outside the Kremlin wall and then assemble across from city hall were heckled and assaulted by skinheads, Orthodox Christians and radical nationalists.

Police said they had arrested about 120 people, both supporters and opponents of the parade. Gay activists were dragged away by riot police when they began speaking to reporters, but opponents of the parade, including a nationalist member of parliament, were allowed to speak and chant, "Moscow is not Sodom."

Several international activists and politicians traveled to Moscow in a show of support for Moscow's gays and lesbians. Volker Beck, a member of the German Parliament from the Green Party, marched with the group and was struck in the face by skinheads outside city hall. He was briefly detained after the incident. A Canadian journalist was also assaulted by opponents of the parade, who threw smoke bombs and eggs before police moved in to disperse them.

"Lesbians and gays have to cope with major problems in Russia," Beck said at a news conference earlier in the day. "There is a massive threat of violence, and it is also frightening that there is no clear support from the state for the rights of lesbian and gay citizens. On the contrary, the mayor of Moscow deprives people who advocate tolerance and equal rights of the freedom to demonstrate."

The city had banned the parade on the grounds that it was anathema to the values of most residents and therefore presented a threat of violence. A city court upheld the ban Friday.

Mayor Yuri Luzhkov said in a radio interview Friday that a gay parade "may be acceptable for some kind of progressive, in some sense, countries in the West, but it is absolutely unacceptable for Moscow, for Russia."

He added: "As long as I am mayor, we will not permit these parades to be conducted."

Homosexuality was decriminalized in Russia in 1993, but the gay community in Moscow remains largely underground. Some gay activists had objected to the parade, which was the culmination of a gay pride festival, saying it was likely to provoke a backlash that could damage efforts to build tolerance.

Other activists, backed by international supporters from the United States and Western Europe, decided to go ahead with the demonstration. Unable to march legally, they decided to place flowers at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier on Saturday afternoon but to act as individual citizens to avoid being charged with staging an illegal protest.

A phalanx of riot police sealed off Alexander's Garden where the tomb is located. Women singing hymns and skinheads jostled with the several dozen gay activists when they arrived.

Nikolai Alexeyev, a leading gay rights activist, was arrested at the monument. "This is a great victory, an absolute victory -- look at what's happening," he shouted as he was taken away.

After the marchers were prevented from reaching the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, a small group of activists followed by an even larger crowd of reporters made their way to a square across from city hall where their opponents had already assembled.

"We are going to clean ourselves of the dirt of the last 15 years," said Nikolai Kuryanovic, a member of parliament for the nationalist Liberal Democratic Party of Russia, speaking at the foot of a monument to Yuri Dolgoruky, the founder of Moscow. "This provocation failed."

Riot police looked on as Kuryanovic spoke, but moved in as soon as Yevgenia Debryanskaya, a leading lesbian activist, began to speak to reporters just in front of Kuryanovic. She was dragged away.

Police also stood by as skinheads crowded around Beck and Scott Long of U.S.-based Human Rights Watch, who had unfurled a rainbow flag.

"The police were encouraging the skinheads," Long said. "It was disturbing but not surprising. Luzhkov spent months encouraging violence by his public homophobia."
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« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2006, 05:10:25 AM »

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Mayor Yuri Luzhkov said in a radio interview Friday that a gay parade "may be acceptable for some kind of progressive, in some sense, countries in the West, but it is absolutely unacceptable for Moscow, for Russia."

Kudos to the mayor and the Orthodox Christians that took to the streets to protests against the perverts bent on perverting yet another society any further. When the 'straights' take to the streets to profess their love for each and flaunt their sexuality in the public sphere, then at that point the gays may have a point...Until then lets keep it in the closet and away from the rest of us normal people.
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« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2006, 06:24:40 AM »

When the 'straights' take to the streets to profess their love for each other
Shouldn't a Christian not only be professing their Love, but actually practicing it?
A few weeks ago, I was stopped in the street by a young man with a guitar strapped to his back and a handful of pamphlets, who greeted me and invited me to a Bible Study. My first instinct was to walk on and pretend I didn't hear. But then, for some strange reason, I noticed that my Baptisimal Cross was hanging out of my shirt; and I thought to myself: "What if this young man saw it? What will he think of those who wear Crosses around their necks if they rudely ignore him?" So I stopped and chatted. At first he seemed eager to get me to come to his Bible Study, but as we talked about it and I explained that I was an Orthodox Christian, and what that meant to me, he became more relaxed about his insistence that I come to Bible Study, and we talked about Christianity. The conversation turned to the subject of "how do we know we are Christians?" and I was expecting him to say something like being "born again" or "saved", but he didn't. Instead, he pulled his guitar around to the front and started to sing a hymn! I can't remember the verses, but the Chorus stuck in my mind:
"And they'll know we are Christians by our love, by our love,
And they'll know we are Christians by our love"
He thanked me for stopping to chat, and I thanked him for surprising me and my expectations.
And his song got me thinking about Our Lord's words: "By this, all men shall know that you are my disciples, that you Love one another."
The evidence- (the only evidence worth anything not only to the world, but to Christ as well)- that we are Orthodox Christians, and that Christ dwells in us is our Love. A baptisimal certificate means nothing. During the Nazi occupation of Greece, Archbishop Damaskinos of Athens ordered all the clergy of the Church of Greece to issue Baptisimal Certificates to any Greek Jew to help them escape the Holocaust. So what showed true Christianity and discipleship of Christ- was it the Baptisimal Certificate or was it the Love which knew when to break the rules to save a fellow human being?
If Orthodox Christians are seen to have not only the same goals as neo-nazi fascist thugs, but the same techniques as them for spreading their beliefs, then where is the evidence that Christ is in them, and that they are His followers?

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« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2006, 11:29:51 AM »

Instead, he pulled his guitar around to the front and started to sing a hymn! I can't remember the verses, but the Chorus stuck in my mind:
"And they'll know we are Christians by our love, by our love,
And they'll know we are Christians by our love"
   



We are one in the spirit, we are one in the Lord (2x)
And we pray that our unity will one day be restored,

(Chorus)

We will walk with each other, we will walk hand in hand (2x)
And together we'll spread the news that God is in our land,

(Chorus)

We will work with each other, we will work side by side (2x)
And we'll guard each man's dignity and save each man's pride,

(Chorus)

All praise to the Father, from whom all things come,
And all praise to Christ Jesus, His only Son,
And all praise to the Spirit Who makes us One,

(Chorus)

- that's the best of my recollection
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« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2006, 12:45:55 PM »

Kudos to the mayor and the Orthodox Christians that took to the streets to protests against the perverts bent on perverting yet another society any further. When the 'straights' take to the streets to profess their love for each and flaunt their sexuality in the public sphere, then at that point the gays may have a point...Until then lets keep it in the closet and away from the rest of us normal people.

As much as I think the 'parade' is horrible, they (authorities, etc.) could have taken a much more legal and dispassionate approach.  They could have prohibited the event and then arrested the participants for obstructing traffic and other things.  I can't support Orthodox Christians assaulting people in a civil non-military setting (not to say I'm happy about a military context either).
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« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2006, 02:59:28 PM »

I guess I need to work on being a better Christian then. I find it hard to have passion and sympathy for those that are willingly parading their sinful lifestyle in the streets when they know full well they would get a reaction out of people. It's like the KKK marching down the street in an African American neighborhood. I don't understand why they would want to change society when they are just as safe as heterosexuals practicing their lifestyle as they see fit. It's one thing to do it, but another to actually go out in the streets and shove it in people's faces. I believe in turning the other cheek, but at some point when you are being run over you have to say enough is enough. Maybe the good people of Moscow don't want their city to turn into another San Francisco, so why are they in the wrong when they disapprove of something they find abhorrent?
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« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2006, 03:05:56 PM »

To protest quietly is one thing, but to join in with a mob of nationlists in the spirit suggested by the reports appears anything but Christian. Reminds of the pro-life clergyman carrying a placard with the words, "God hates faggots". I was taught He hated sin, but faggots? Served with mushy peas they're lovely!
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« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2006, 03:29:17 PM »

Happened in Belgrade's first and -to date only gay parade- a few years ago. They set back gay activist plans back to medieval times. Actually, I have no problem with Gay parades, aslong as long as we get our Straight parades. Hell, they even have their own Gay and Lesbian Professional Soccer League in the US. Isn't that discrimination?
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« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2006, 03:58:36 PM »

Straight?

Homosexuals appear to use this to refer to heterosexuals. Criminals use it to refer to the law abiding. Why use euphemisms when more exact words exist?

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« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2006, 02:15:16 AM »

Kudos to the mayor and the Orthodox Christians that took to the streets to protests against the perverts bent on perverting yet another society any further. When the 'straights' take to the streets to profess their love for each and flaunt their sexuality in the public sphere, then at that point the gays may have a point...Until then lets keep it in the closet and away from the rest of us normal people.

Really.  You like seeing Orthodox Christians in the mix with "skinheads...and nationalists"?

Clearly homosexuality is a sin, but isn't violent opposition to a gay parade just as bad?  Like ozgeorge basically said, shouldn't the way to reach out be through love?  Am I the only one who finds it disturbing that Orthodox Christians are amoung extremist bigots? 
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« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2006, 08:47:19 AM »

ÂÂ  Am I the only one who finds it disturbing that Orthodox Christians are amoung extremist bigots?ÂÂ  

No. You're not the only one.
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« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2006, 04:18:30 PM »

Straight?

Homosexuals appear to use this to refer to heterosexuals. Criminals use it to refer to the law abiding. Why use euphemisms when more exact words exist?

If your referring to me, heres why. Do they call it the Homosexual Parade or Gay parade? Hence If it did exist, I dont think it would be called the heterosexual parade.
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« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2006, 05:02:58 PM »

No, not necessarily on anyones' case, just dislike the pirating by groups of perfectly good words because they are more comfortable being called this or that, and then allocating those outside their group a label of the groups' chosing.

Sorry if you felt I was getting at you, that was not my intention
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« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2006, 12:20:36 AM »

Quote
Clearly homosexuality is a sin, but isn't violent opposition to a gay parade just as bad?  Like ozgeorge basically said, shouldn't the way to reach out be through love?  Am I the only one who finds it disturbing that Orthodox Christians are amoung extremist bigots?

Well, I disagree with violence of course...The better course would be to actually outlaw any such public displays of people flaunting their sexuality in the public sphere if clearly the majority are that concerned about it. I'm kind of miffed why any person would want to do such a thing in the first place seeing that it should be something that is kept private. It's hard to believe that these people weren't aware of the dangerous situation they were getting themselves into; kinda like being naive enough to throw stones at a hornets nest and expecting nothing to happen.
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« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2006, 01:46:57 AM »

So, then do you also disagree with the civil liberties (such as the march on Washington) back during Martin Luther King's time?  Obivously, then, "the majority" was "concerned about it".

My point is, if we were to start outlawing "such public displays of people flauting their sexuality", where do we draw the line for other things?
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« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2006, 02:29:29 AM »

Quote
So, then do you also disagree with the civil liberties (such as the march on Washington) back during Martin Luther King's time?  Obivously, then, "the majority" was "concerned about it".

My point is, if we were to start outlawing "such public displays of people flauting their sexuality", where do we draw the line for other things?


Bad comparison, it has nothing to do with civil rights. I don't see the connection between being discriminated against for being born with the wrong skin color as compared to those that choose to engage in a dangerous alternative lifestyle putting your own health at risk. I have heard that many in the black community are tired of the gays using such silly comparisons that have no merit.








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« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2006, 03:05:34 AM »

Whether or not you find the comparison worthy, my point still stands that we walk on a fine line if we begin to censor people who are doing something relatively harmless just because we consider what they are parading for to be sinful.  Then again, it is Moscow, and not America.
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« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2006, 03:06:45 AM »

And I might add, the whole health risk thing is really over-dramatized.  The number one growing group of people with AIDS is white, heterosexual females.  Better get out my bubble, aye?
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« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2006, 10:09:46 AM »

As much as I think the 'parade' is horrible, they (authorities, etc.) could have taken a much more legal and dispassionate approach.ÂÂ  They could have prohibited the event and then arrested the participants for obstructing traffic and other things.ÂÂ  I can't support Orthodox Christians assaulting people in a civil non-military setting (not to say I'm happy about a military context either).
The authorities did prohibit the event. 
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« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2006, 01:09:55 PM »

The authorities did prohibit the event.ÂÂ  

If they knew it was going to take place anyways, then they should have been on hand to arrest those that chose to participate regardless.  Still, shame on those that were there to protest and used violent means who were not authority figures.
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« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2006, 05:27:30 PM »

"Am I the only one who finds it disturbing that Orthodox Christians are amoung extremist bigots?"

I find it deeply disturbing. Reaching out through love does not have to mean that you condone the sin. However, what really bugs me is that many Christians seem to think that homosexuality is somehow a worse sin than others. Of course, some of the attention is the result of a more liberal society, but at times I sense something else in the indignation. Some might think I am taking things too far here, but if we aren't careful, we might get stuck doing everything but look for the what-do-you-call-it in our own eyes.
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« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2006, 05:39:04 PM »

If they knew it was going to take place anyways, then they should have been on hand to arrest those that chose to participate regardless.ÂÂ  Still, shame on those that were there to protest and used violent means who were not authority figures.

So if they were authority figures, it would have been fine for you?
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« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2006, 05:41:53 PM »

So, then do you also disagree with the civil liberties (such as the march on Washington) back during Martin Luther King's time?ÂÂ  Obivously, then, "the majority" was "concerned about it".

My point is, if we were to start outlawing "such public displays of people flauting their sexuality", where do we draw the line for other things?
The homosexuals in Russia have their civil liberties, they are free to live in sin.  What they want is to have their cake and eat it.  They want to declare their lifestyle normal, and the next logical step is for them to then promote (ie flaunt) their lifestyle publicly.  The diseases of the west are gradually infecting the east.  All people want is rights, and noone wants any responsiblities.  A political party was formed in Holland yesterday which wants to legalise paedophilia for crying out loud.
Im quite dissapointed, but not really surprised, that the first reaction of many Christians here is not to be shocked that there was an attempt to hold an illegal celebration of degeneracy in the capital of Holy Russia, but to get self-righteous about how the protestors should have acted.  Needless to say, violence is not the answer, but the fact that a few people got slapped around is secondary to the significance of the struggle we are facing, in trying to prevent Orthodox Slav countries from succumbing to the illnesses of the secular west. ÂÂ
I understand that in America degeneracy such as pornography, adultery etc is passed off as normal, all in the name of freedom, and rights, if you Americans refuse to protest against it then so be it.  But in countries like Russia, Orthodox are not afraid of mobilising to counter the threat faced, instead of taking some morally superior highground, you should be supporting the protestors.  Those that assaulted the marchers were skinheads in any case, so do not be quick to condemn the believers.
By the sounds of it some of you are trying to justify a modern day Sodom and Gomorrah:

They were not ashamed to own it, and to prosecute their design by force and arms. The practice would have been bad enough if it had been carried on by intrigue and wheedling; but they proclaimed war with virtue, and bade open defiance to it. Hence daring sinners are said to declare their sin as Sodom, Isa. 3:9. Note, Those that have become impudent in sin generally prove impenitent in sin; and it will be their ruin. Those have hard hearts indeed that sin with a high hand, Jer. 6:15.

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« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2006, 07:29:46 PM »

Couple of observations:

The practice of unprotected anal sex is not something to be characterized as an "overblown health risk", especially when coupled with frequent changes of sexual partner - sometimes extremely frequent as in the activity known as warehousing.

The parades are desperately provocative and may present in some countries real challenges in terms of public offence leading to serious disorder. I agree however it is difficult to know how one might draw a line. The tendency though of certain western powers to try and 'bully' other nations into going along with their own rather permissive attitudes to such provocative behaviour is unsettling too, I opine.
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« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2006, 08:28:54 PM »

So if they were authority figures, it would have been fine for you?

Not really - didn't mean to imply it, but don't the police sometimes HAVE to use physical means to stop something?
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« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2006, 08:57:56 PM »

This is my first post here, so please forgive me for wading right into a controversial subject...

Clearly violence is wrong, but an appeal to the authorities to step in and enforce the will of the majority misses the mark as well.  Remember our persecuted brothers in the Middle East and around the world before we talk about the 'will of the majority.'  Surely the majority in many Islamic countries would not mind further persecution of Orthodox Christians...

The better response seems to me to be prayer and repentance for our own sins.  Try to set an example to help non-Orthodox see that there is a better way.  Attempting to use the government (or worse, skinheads) to enforce our positions reveals weakness rather than strength, IMO.
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« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2006, 09:45:21 PM »

This is my first post here, so please forgive me for wading right into a controversial subject...

welcome to the forum and enjoyÂÂ  Smiley
 
Quote
The better response seems to me to be prayer and repentance for our own sins.ÂÂ  Try to set an example to help non-Orthodox see that there is a better way.ÂÂ  Attempting to use the government (or worse, skinheads) to enforce our positions reveals weakness rather than strength, IMO.

Do you really think that by standing by and watching them impose their sins onto others (the "its ok to be Gay", theyre spreading sodomy), instead of formal confrontation will do any better?

Skinheads personally, are even worse. When I see a skinhead I have trouble holding myself back from making a comment about their stupid ideology and theories..

Forgive my sins,

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« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2006, 11:10:52 PM »

Thanks for the welcome, Sloga   Smiley
Quote
Do you really think that by standing by and watching them impose their sins onto others (the "its ok to be Gay", theyre spreading sodomy), instead of formal confrontation will do any better?

I didn't mean to suggest that we do nothing, but rather that responding with force (including government) is probably even worse than doing nothing.  It makes it seem as though our moral position is based on forcing others to do what we want.  The Church's position on homosexuality is clear, and we should have the courage to state it and pray for those who disagree, but in my view that is enough.  Let people see our example and judge for themselves.
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« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2006, 01:33:55 AM »

Confrontation is probably worse than anything.ÂÂ  You can't force someone into believing something.ÂÂ  

How do we deal with this?ÂÂ  I don't believe we should stop them from having their gay parade.ÂÂ  I do believe we should educate OUR people on what it all means, and educate OUR children to understand why it is we believe what they're doing to be wrong.ÂÂ  We shouldn't be condoning joining up with skinheads and other extremists to fight a group of people who otherwise really cannot have an impact on our Church.ÂÂ  You know, "the gates of hell shall not prevail", and all that...remember?

edit: fixed a major typo, lol..
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« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2006, 01:41:07 AM »

The homosexuals in Russia have their civil liberties, they are free to live in sin.  What they want is to have their cake and eat it.  They want to declare their lifestyle normal, and the next logical step is for them to then promote (ie flaunt) their lifestyle publicly.  The diseases of the west are gradually infecting the east.  All people want is rights, and noone wants any responsiblities.  A political party was formed in Holland yesterday which wants to legalise paedophilia for crying out loud.
Im quite dissapointed, but not really surprised, that the first reaction of many Christians here is not to be shocked that there was an attempt to hold an illegal celebration of degeneracy in the capital of Holy Russia, but to get self-righteous about how the protestors should have acted.  Needless to say, violence is not the answer, but the fact that a few people got slapped around is secondary to the significance of the struggle we are facing, in trying to prevent Orthodox Slav countries from succumbing to the illnesses of the secular west. ÂÂ
I understand that in America degeneracy such as pornography, adultery etc is passed off as normal, all in the name of freedom, and rights, if you Americans refuse to protest against it then so be it.  But in countries like Russia, Orthodox are not afraid of mobilising to counter the threat faced, instead of taking some morally superior highground, you should be supporting the protestors.  Those that assaulted the marchers were skinheads in any case, so do not be quick to condemn the believers.
By the sounds of it some of you are trying to justify a modern day Sodom and Gomorrah:

They were not ashamed to own it, and to prosecute their design by force and arms. The practice would have been bad enough if it had been carried on by intrigue and wheedling; but they proclaimed war with virtue, and bade open defiance to it. Hence daring sinners are said to declare their sin as Sodom, Isa. 3:9. Note, Those that have become impudent in sin generally prove impenitent in sin; and it will be their ruin. Those have hard hearts indeed that sin with a high hand, Jer. 6:15.



They may want to have their cake and eat it too (that is, have everyone consider their lifestyle to be 'normal'), but they haven't succeeded in that anywhere, not even in America.  Granted, it is many places in the media - television, movies, music, etc - but the average person will tell you they don't believe that homosexuality is "ok" or "right".  I understand the notion of going along with being all cheery good with homosexuality, believe me; it's often thought of as an "enlightened" stance above other "bigotted" religious extremists.  But we have to also look at where this comes from - hate.  The pendulem is swinging the other way now.  The dominant mode of thought to be homosexual-hating/fearing people which was combined with a lot of ignorant fundamentalist doctrine being spewed has led many people to a) be wary of any religion, ESPECIALLY Christianity and b) as a consequence of A, to believe that anything the church teaches must, therefore, be unintuned with the people and with people's hearts.  We can't go about protesting like extremists, with signs such as "God hates fags" (I'm thinking of the recent group of nutcases that protested at a soldier's funeral).  We as Orthodox have a responsibility (at least I think so) to be removed from this crazy legalistic (not the L word!) extremist 'you're-going-to-hell' attitude that pervades so many "devoutly Christian" peoples.
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« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2006, 05:28:14 AM »

Im quite dissapointed, but not really surprised, that the first reaction of many Christians here is not to be shocked that there was an attempt to hold an illegal celebration of degeneracy in the capital of Holy Russia, but to get self-righteous about how the protestors should have acted.

That's how I feel as well.  Indeed, the freedom of speech rhetoric and self-righteousness have no place in Orthodoxy.  The people of Russia deserve respect, for they have endured the terror of Communism.  On the other hand, many in the West don't know the meaning of suffering (the author of the article included); I believe that they are in no position to dictate what is right and what is wrong for Russia. 

I commend the mayor of Moscow for fighting the evil ideology that is homosexuality.  Same goes to its fearless citizens who remind me of the people of Byzantium.

Oh Russia, how blessed and RESPONSIBLE are your people! 

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« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2006, 07:16:51 AM »

They may want to have their cake and eat it too (that is, have everyone consider their lifestyle to be 'normal'), but they haven't succeeded in that anywhere, not even in America.
They are pushing the boundaries day in day out.  In Britain, homosexual couples have the same rights as heterosexual married couples.  A practising lesbian priest of the Church of England is pushing to become a bishop.  These things are no longer seen as abnormal by secular society.

I understand the notion of going along with being all cheery good with homosexuality, believe me; it's often thought of as an "enlightened" stance above other "bigotted" religious extremists.ÂÂ  But we have to also look at where this comes from - hate.ÂÂ  The pendulem is swinging the other way now.ÂÂ  The dominant mode of thought to be homosexual-hating/fearing people which was combined with a lot of ignorant fundamentalist doctrine being spewed has led many people to a) be wary of any religion, ESPECIALLY Christianity and b) as a consequence of A, to believe that anything the church teaches must, therefore, be unintuned with the people and with people's hearts.ÂÂ  We can't go about protesting like extremists, with signs such as "God hates fags" (I'm thinking of the recent group of nutcases that protested at a soldier's funeral).ÂÂ  We as Orthodox have a responsibility (at least I think so) to be removed from this crazy legalistic (not the L word!) extremist 'you're-going-to-hell' attitude that pervades so many "devoutly Christian" peoples.
I dont think that protesting against it means that you are necessarily hateful of homosexuals in general, its just a case of making a stand for the moral standards we believe in, in our own societies.  It has to be made clear that these people are not going to impose their standards on us.  This is what these people ultimately want, and are getting in the west.  Then your children have to watch their degeneracy accross the media being passed off as completely normal.  Forgiving your personal enemies is one thing, but we have a duty to confont those that wish to change the nature of our societies for the worse. 
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« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2006, 07:17:26 AM »

They are pushing the boundaries day in day out.ÂÂ  In Britain, homosexual couples have the same rights as heterosexual married couples.ÂÂ  A practising lesbian priest of the Church of England is pushing to become a bishop.ÂÂ  These things are no longer seen as abnormal by secular society.
I dont think that protesting against it means that you are necessarily hateful of homosexuals in general, its just a case of making a stand for the moral standards we believe in, in our own societies.ÂÂ  It has to be made clear that these people are not going to impose their standards on us.ÂÂ  This is what these people ultimately want, and are getting in the west.ÂÂ  Then your children have to watch their degeneracy accross the media being passed off as completely normal.ÂÂ  Forgiving your personal enemies is one thing, but we have a duty to confront those that wish to change the nature of our societies for the worse.ÂÂ  
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« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2006, 07:22:14 AM »

Confrontation is probably worse than anything.ÂÂ  You can't force someone into believing something.ÂÂ  

How do we deal with this?ÂÂ  I don't believe we should stop them from having their gay parade.ÂÂ  I do believe we should educate OUR people on what it all means, and educate OUR children to understand why it is we believe what they're doing to be wrong.ÂÂ  We shouldn't be condoning joining up with skinheads and other extremists to fight a group of people who otherwise really cannot have an impact on our Church.ÂÂ  edit: fixed a major typo, lol..
If I turn up to an anti-war rally, there will be muslims and communists there.  Likewise there were Orthodox believers and skinheads protesting at the gay parade.  Thats what happens at protests, they draw people from all segments of society united on that one issue, doesnt mean they have anything else in common.
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« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2006, 11:20:25 AM »

In Britain plc the Law Commission is now considering the option of giving property and others rights to co-habiting couples. Here the balance has already swung too far and marriage under the gaze of Mr and Mrs Blair, ardent Christians apparently, ever under attack.
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« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2006, 01:04:23 PM »

They are pushing the boundaries day in day out.ÂÂ  In Britain, homosexual couples have the same rights as heterosexual married couples.ÂÂ  A practising lesbian priest of the Church of England is pushing to become a bishop.ÂÂ  These things are no longer seen as abnormal by secular society.
I dont think that protesting against it means that you are necessarily hateful of homosexuals in general, its just a case of making a stand for the moral standards we believe in, in our own societies.ÂÂ  It has to be made clear that these people are not going to impose their standards on us.ÂÂ  This is what these people ultimately want, and are getting in the west.ÂÂ  Then your children have to watch their degeneracy accross the media being passed off as completely normal.ÂÂ  Forgiving your personal enemies is one thing, but we have a duty to confont those that wish to change the nature of our societies for the worse.ÂÂ  

Personally, I think gay couples should be given the same rights by the state as straight couples.

That doesn't mean that every day citizens, no matter how much they protest, don't cock an eyebrow at least when they see two gay people together.  And if when further pressed, the idea of homosexuality no longer sounds like such an "OK" thing.  There are plenty, yes, but that plenty is far from the majority.

These things like lesbian priests (gasp, shock, firstly a FEMALE PRIEST!!!  Roll Eyes) pushing to become bishops are a result of corrupted sects of Christianity that have broken away from the body of Christ, and this is the result.  Like I said earlier, we as Orthodox should be removed from this type of insanity, which also means that we can't point to examples in other denominations and say "well, see!"  At least, not in this case.

Dude, all I have to say is your post really sounds like you hate gays.
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« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2006, 01:05:36 PM »

If I turn up to an anti-war rally, there will be muslims and communists there.ÂÂ  Likewise there were Orthodox believers and skinheads protesting at the gay parade.ÂÂ  Thats what happens at protests, they draw people from all segments of society united on that one issue, doesnt mean they have anything else in common.

I can't believe you're even coming up with excuses for that.  Those skinheads were probably THE REASON why it escalated in violence.  Do you think if you put yourself around mass negativity you will be able to maintain your cool for long?  If I show up at a protest and I see skinheads on my side, I'm probably going to rethink why I'm on that side of the fence.
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« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2006, 02:14:08 PM »

Personally, I think gay couples should be given the same rights by the state as straight couples.
Well If you want to live in a secular society that approves of such things thats fine, but I dont, and I dont apologise for it.

These things like lesbian priests (gasp, shock, firstly a FEMALE PRIEST!!!ÂÂ  Roll Eyes) pushing to become bishops are a result of corrupted sects of Christianity that have broken away from the body of Christ, and this is the result.ÂÂ  Like I said earlier, we as Orthodox should be removed from this type of insanity, which also means that we can't point to examples in other denominations and say "well, see!"ÂÂ  At least, not in this case.
How can you be 'removed from this type of insanity', when you want to live in such a society? I only mentioned the lesbian priest in response to your statement that homosexuality is not accepted as normal by western society.ÂÂ  Clearly if the supposed spiritual guardians of England have accepted this as normal, the rest of society accepted it a long time ago.

Dude, all I have to say is your post really sounds like you hate gays.
Is that supposed to make me go all defensive?  I never stated that anywhere, none of my points have had anything to do with hate.
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« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2006, 03:25:53 PM »

How can you be 'removed from this type of insanity', when you want to live in such a society?

"in the world but not of the world"

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« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2006, 03:32:03 PM »

Serbian Patriot,

It is not that any of us want to live in a society where homosexuality is rampant.  But speaking for myself, I feel that using the government to suppress it is counterproductive.  Firstly, if you push government to pass laws you like, eventually it will use those same powers to pass laws against you.  Let us not kid ourselves that the politicians of Russia (or any other country) are primarily concerned with the defense of Orthodoxy.  Serbs know as well as anyone what the promises of politicians are worth.

Secondly, I think that by outlawing and suppressing it, we harden the hearts of people practicing the homosexual lifestyle, as well as give a veneer of "oppressed minority" status to it.  This makes it much harder for people to examine how it really affects their own lives as well as others.  I think if we simply stated the Church's position clearly and with no attempt at coercion, people would better be able to see for themselves that Christianity offers a better path. 
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« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2006, 03:41:10 PM »

I can't believe you're even coming up with excuses for that.ÂÂ  Those skinheads were probably THE REASON why it escalated in violence.ÂÂ  Do you think if you put yourself around mass negativity you will be able to maintain your cool for long?ÂÂ  If I show up at a protest and I see skinheads on my side, I'm probably going to rethink why I'm on that side of the fence.
I really dont understand what the problem is?  So if I turned up to an anti-war rally, and there are communists and muslims there, do I reconsider why I turned up?  No, the reason would be the same regardless, I would be there standing up for the justice that I believe in.  During the bombings against Serbia, countless communists showed up to the demos trying to promote their cause and use the situation to their advantage.  That doesnt change why I was there, and its not going to stop me protesting the way I see fit.  It doesnt mean that Im going to turn into a communist or muslim, or that I even approve of them.  You must think that people are very fickle if you dont credit them with the ability to attend a protest without attacking people just because someone else is doing it. ÂÂ
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« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2006, 03:50:35 PM »

Serbian Patriot,

It is not that any of us want to live in a society where homosexuality is rampant.ÂÂ  But speaking for myself, I feel that using the government to suppress it is counterproductive.ÂÂ  Firstly, if you push government to pass laws you like, eventually it will use those same powers to pass laws against you.ÂÂ
Im not advocating the changing of any law, it is the homosexuals which want that.  Im advocating that we keep the present laws ie against the promotion of homosexuality etc.  You make it seem like I want to repress them. I accept that they can practise what they like, but it becomes a problem when they want to nomalise it, flaunt it, promote it etc.
Secondly, I think that by outlawing and suppressing it, we harden the hearts of people practicing the homosexual lifestyle, as well as give a veneer of "oppressed minority" status to it.
You are under the impression that I want to outlaw homosexuality.  I dont.  You cant outlaw it, we all have free will.  But they dont have the right to subvert the entire society.  Honestly some western cities look like down town Sodom, and you guys seem to want to tell other peoples that they should adopt your liberal free-for-all experiment which is leaving your entire society spiritually confused and lost.
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« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2006, 04:36:37 PM »

but it becomes a problem when they want to nomalise it, flaunt it, promote it etc.You are under the impression that I want to outlaw homosexuality.ÂÂ  I dont.ÂÂ  You cant outlaw it, we all have free will.ÂÂ  But they dont have the right to subvert the entire society.ÂÂ  Honestly some western cities look like down town Sodom, and you guys seem to want to tell other peoples that they should adopt your liberal free-for-all experiment which is leaving your entire society spiritually confused and lost.
I'm just curious.  What do believe to be logical consequences of "permitting them" to "flaunt" their homosexuality?

I'm also curious as to how the flaunting might subvert "the entire society"?

It's not that I necessarily disagree with you, however, these seem to be pretty broad suppositions and I'm curious as to understand why you seem to think these assumptions are so clear.

Also, I think the link between commies and skinheads is an unfair one (to commies).  Communist ideology (however flawed) is not centrally based upon hatred.
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« Reply #43 on: June 02, 2006, 08:40:04 PM »

Quote
Secondly, I think that by outlawing and suppressing it, we harden the hearts of people practicing the homosexual lifestyle, as well as give a veneer of "oppressed minority" status to it.

What oppression are you talking about?ÂÂ  In the Moscow demonstration, was anybody killed?

Quote
This makes it much harder for people to examine how it really affects their own lives as well as others.

There is no need for that experiment for it has failed in the West.ÂÂ  Homosexuality is evil to the core.ÂÂ  And rightly so, in the case of Moscow, it is deemed illegal by the authorities and is considered immoral by many.ÂÂ  Looking back to the history of the East, Orthodoxy operates best when its moral standards are upheld by the government and are widely supported by its citizenry.ÂÂ  When you see this happening in your nation, consider your country blessed (of course, the US does not count because it is not Orthodox).

Quote
I think if we simply stated the Church's position clearly and with no attempt at coercion, people would better be able to see for themselves that Christianity offers a better path.

Orthodoxy did not create the ordinance that supposedly "hardens the hearts of people practicing the homosexual lifestyle;" rather, the people of Russia are simply SUPPORTING the mayor's initiative.ÂÂ  Please don’t tell me that if you were in Russia, you would put up a demonstration seeking to change this!


 
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« Reply #44 on: June 02, 2006, 08:44:46 PM »

I'm just curious.ÂÂ  What do believe to be logical consequences of "permitting them" to "flaunt" their homosexuality?

I'm also curious as to how the flaunting might subvert "the entire society"?

The children are the victims.  They will grow up thinking that homosexuality is normal.
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