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Author Topic: Patriarch Bartholomew vs Esphigmenou Monastery  (Read 13847 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: December 01, 2005, 09:00:16 PM »

4) I apologise for callin Photius evil. I should not doubt his sainthood.
The Photian schism was a blot in a wonderful man's character.
But he did a mistake most Greeks do. They put Greece above Church and God.
That's what happened with Photius, Cerularius, the Union of Lyon and Florence.
I know... I am Greek.

Your Greek?
Hey buddy..Constantinople is this way..your in the Wrong Church buddy.
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« Reply #91 on: December 02, 2005, 09:30:12 AM »


At last!!! Dialogue!!!

Quote
Esphigmenou dispute
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100023_02/12/2005_63665
Representatives from the Esphigmenou Monastery on Mount Athos and from the Ecumenical Patriarchate yesterday held talks at the Foreign Ministry in Athens, ministry spokesman Giorgos Koumoutsakos said yesterday. “There was an exchange of opinions regarding what needs to be done to restore order and calm to Esphigmenou,” Koumoutsakos said, without elaborating. Last week, Esphigmenou monks clashed with representatives of the Orthodox Church hierarchy over plans to install monks from another order in a building next to Esphigmenou.
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« Reply #92 on: December 02, 2005, 10:02:41 AM »

2) You are a fool if you think that Photius fought the Holy See for its doctrines.
Let's overlook the Formula of Pope Hormisdas, the 7 first Oecumenical Councils and all the
Church Fathers who where in favour of the primacy and the filioque...

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It just goes on and on my friends.
Some people started singing it not knowing what it was
And they'll continue singing it forever just because
This is the song that never ends,
It just goes on and on my friends.....



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« Reply #93 on: December 02, 2005, 10:38:58 AM »

So my question is this. If the Patriarch is Greek and Greek is indeed Christian, then why isn't the church of Greece under the Omophor of the EP?
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« Reply #94 on: December 02, 2005, 02:12:31 PM »

So my question is this. If the Patriarch is Greek and Greek is indeed Christian, then why isn't the church of Greece under the Omophor of the EP?

Nationalism.
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« Reply #95 on: December 02, 2005, 02:18:31 PM »

Actually I object to the term "Photian schism".

{Interjection over}
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« Reply #96 on: December 02, 2005, 02:19:56 PM »

So my question is this. If the Patriarch is Greek and Greek is indeed Christian, then why isn't the church of Greece under the Omophor of the EP?

Er...maybe 'cause the EP is Turkish?   Wink

But I'm sure he'd be glad to take Greece back...
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« Reply #97 on: December 02, 2005, 02:37:15 PM »

So my question is this. If the Patriarch is Greek and Greek is indeed Christian, then why isn't the church of Greece under the Omophor of the EP?

In all seriousness: after the Romans split from the Turks with the help of the Western European nations, they formed the nation of Greece and tried to break all bonds with what was the Ottoman Empire; of course, since the Patriarch was still in Constantinople (the legal name of the city well into the 20th century), they didn't want the Turks to attempt to influence their Ecclesiastical head, so they asked for Autocephaly.  It was granted, of course; but at the time there was also the brewing idea in the minds of the "Greeks" that "Greece" would eventually strech as far as the Bosphoros and include Constantinople (it wasn't that inconcievable: Constantinople had been Ottoman for less time than Athens had!) - often referred to as the Μεγάλη Ιδέα or Great Idea (the re-taking of Constantinople and the resurgence of a unified Orthodox Christian Roman Empire, and idea that was as repulsive to the West as it was to the Ottomans).  Since that point, however, the Great Idea has been stomped out (see Smyrna after WWI).  But there is still a respect from Greece for the EP (why the Archbishop of Athens has not as yet claimed the title of a "Patriarch" even though he nominally has quite a large flock), and there are still parts of the modern-day state of Greece that are under the EP because they were still under Ottoman control at the time of the Autocephaly agreement (the Northern Provinces - Macedonia et al. - and the Holy Mountain).
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« Reply #98 on: December 02, 2005, 08:36:06 PM »

Wow, thanks Cleveland, I didn't know about that.  Thanks  Smiley
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« Reply #99 on: December 02, 2005, 08:48:39 PM »

Wow, thanks Cleveland, I didn't know about that.  Thanks  Smiley

No problemo; that was the "cliffs notes" version of the quite complicated situation between the two parties that has arisen over the past 180 years.  I personally don't like the situation; but I'm biased against anything that smacks of western-inspired nationalism.  I tend to agree with Fr. John Romanides on the issue: the western powers ruined Orthdox Rome's memory, and prevented it from being resurrected.
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« Reply #100 on: December 03, 2005, 01:06:02 AM »


3) One of my fav. saints is St Josephat. When you accept St. Josephat is a holy-man I will
accept St Photius is a holy man.
I think you may be obliged to accept Saint Photius.  The point is that the Pope has approved his inclusion in Eastern Catholic Church Calendars.


There is another dark side of Josaphat Kuntsevich.

Here is what the the Chancellor of Lithuania, Leo Sapiega, the representative of the Polish King, wrote to Josaphat Kuntsevich on 12 March, 1622, which is one and a half years before Josaphat's death:

"...By thoughtless violence you oppress the Russian people and urge them on to revolt. You are aware of the censure of the simple people, that it would be better to be in Turkish captivity than to endure such persecutions for faith and piety. You write that you freely drown the Orthodox, chop off their heads, and profane their churches. You seal their churches so the people, without piety and Christian rites, are buried like non-Christians. In place of joy, your cunning Uniatism has brought us only woe, unrest, and conflict. We would prefer to be without it. These are the fruits of your Uniatism."

Just before his "martyr's end," which occurred on November 12, 1623 in Vitebsk, Kuntsevich ordered the disposal of dead Orthodox by having their corpses exhumed and thrown to dogs. In all of his Polotsky diocese, both in Mogilyov and in Orsha, he pillaged and terrorized the Orthodox, closing and burning churches. Eloquent complaints were sent to judges and to the Polish Sejm.

For more information see this message on a Catholic Forum

http://www.cin.org/archives/apolo/199810/0580.html

Since the Pope encourages us to move from the "dialogue of love" to the "dialogue of truth" here is the Orthodox view of this dreadful man. The Jesuit priest Saint Josaphat Kuntsevich - killed by an Orthodox crowd and therefore proclaimed a Saint and Martyr by Rome.

A martyr for Rome - yes. A martyr for Christ - no.

"In the sixteenth Century shifting political boundaries found large numbers of Orthodox within a united Polish-Lithuanian kingdom, at once anti-Russian and militantly Catholic. The forceful conversion of the Orthodox, conducted primarily by the Jesuits, was "legitimised" in 1596 by the Council of Brest-Litovsk, which proclaimed the "union" of the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches within the Polish-Lithuanian State. (A medal coined at the creation of the Unia showed Pope Clement VIII on his throne with a Russian prostrated before him.)

"To facilitate this conversion, the Orthodox were allowed to retain the Eastern (Byzantine) rite and many externals of Orthodox worship--icons, iconostasis, Orthodox style vestments, the eight-point cross... They continued using the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and simply commemorated the pope instead of the patriarch. Many simple people thus converted without realising the theological consequences. Those who refused to join this Uniate Church were persecuted; thousands were martyred.

"A leader in this campaign, the Polish Jesuit Josaphat Kuntsevich, admitted that he freely drowned the Orthodox, chopped off their heads and profaned their churches; he ordered their dead bodies to be thrown to dogs.

"But one day, arriving in Vitebsk on the 12th of November, 1623, with a band of his cohorts, Kuntsevich proceeded to knock down the tents where the Orthodox secretly held divine services. One of Kuntsevich's deacons attacked an Orthodox priest. The crowd, which had run out of patience, then turned on Kuntsevich, who was personally leading this pogrom, and with sticks and stones beat him to death. His maimed body was placed in a sack and tossed into the Diva river. "

Such was the inglorious end of the earthly life of this alleged "Apostle of Unity" as none other than Pope John Paul II shamelessly dares to call him.

In those evil times, there is no denying that the hands of Orthodox and Catholics alike were stained with the blood of their fellow men. But for the Pope to proclaim Josephat Kuntsevich a Saint is a wicked endorsement of savagery and murder against the Orthodox.



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« Reply #101 on: December 03, 2005, 01:24:13 AM »

Quote
I tend to agree with Fr. John Romanides on the issue: the western powers ruined Orthdox Rome's memory, and prevented it from being resurrected.

Typical Greek response - expect foriegn aid on the terms that the Greeks want while being entirely ungratefull.  There were plenty of secularist Greeks that hate the Orthodox history of Greece to destroy her own history without blaming Western Europe.  But it is also more comforting to blame someone else...

Now I don't disagree with the idea that the powers that be do wish to elleminate from history the Roman Empire (aka the Byzantine empire).  But I do get sick of the blaming of the western power that aided the revolution being blamed entirely for this - there were plenty of secularist Greeks that desire the same thing.
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« Reply #102 on: December 03, 2005, 11:46:23 AM »

Typical Greek response - expect foriegn aid on the terms that the Greeks want while being entirely ungratefull. 

I am only a "typical Greek" in that I am short, hairy, my family grows olives, and drink ouzo... And I never said I was ungrateful for the assistance of the Western Powers in liberating us from the oppression of the Islamic State of the Ottoman Empire...  But I am "ungrateful" for the imposition of the cultural ideas of the West on Greece, which have slowly become ingraned into the culture in Greece (thanks to the Greeks accepting them hook, line, and sinker); but of course, you can't go fishin for Greeks unless the Greek fish bite (I'm ψάρι for the bad analogy - and the bad joke just now)

There were plenty of secularist Greeks that hate the Orthodox history of Greece to destroy her own history without blaming Western Europe.  But it is also more comforting to blame someone else... 

Sure... but who empowered them?  Who gave them a "history" of Greece to fuel their ideology?  Who squashed the "Greek" push for Constantinople, when the "Greeks" knew that it was part of their empire for over 1100 years?  I'm not trying to be a big conspiracy-theorist, but the "Western Powers" (America, England, France, Germany) have been shaping the political and social climates in nations for hundreds and hundreds of years (America is relatively new to the game).  So while the Greeks deserve much of the blame for attempting to shoot Orthodoxy themselves, we have to also blame the ones who gave them the guns and told them where to shoot.

Now I don't disagree with the idea that the powers that be do wish to elleminate from history the Roman Empire (aka the Byzantine empire).  But I do get sick of the blaming of the western power that aided the revolution being blamed entirely for this - there were plenty of secularist Greeks that desire the same thing. 

Then we won't blame them entirely... συμφωνούμε.
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« Reply #103 on: December 03, 2005, 01:56:27 PM »

Quote
Your Greek?
Hey buddy..Constantinople is this way..your in the Wrong Church buddy.

Well, I am Greek and I have no trouble calling it Istanbul just like the rest of the world.
And to me, Elder Rome is the way.
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« Reply #104 on: December 03, 2005, 02:00:35 PM »

And by the way... I don't think you can say you was a martyr of Christ or not. (not trying to be rude, but
I dislike people who pretend to know God's will better than anyone)
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« Reply #105 on: December 03, 2005, 02:05:39 PM »

And by the way... I don't think you can say you was a martyr of Christ or not. (not trying to be rude, but
I dislike people who pretend to know God's will better than anyone)

Yourself included?  Wink
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« Reply #106 on: December 03, 2005, 04:45:37 PM »

Armando,

I haven't seen you acknowlege yet that St Photios is a saint in the Eastern Catholic Church and as such you are obliged to venerate him.

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« Reply #107 on: December 04, 2005, 04:00:44 AM »

Quote
And I never said I was ungrateful for the assistance of the Western Powers in liberating us from the oppression of the Islamic State of the Ottoman Empire...  But I am "ungrateful" for the imposition of the cultural ideas of the West on Greece, which have slowly become ingraned into the culture in Greece (thanks to the Greeks accepting them hook, line, and sinker); but of course, you can't go fishin for Greeks unless the Greek fish bite (I'm ψάρι for the bad analogy - and the bad joke just now)

What I'm saying is that you can't have it both ways - the price Greece had to pay for its liberation is being under the influence of Western powers.  The secularizations Greece has undergone have been self-imposed.  This is also true of the Church - think ecumenism, the new calendar etc.

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« Reply #108 on: December 04, 2005, 04:21:11 AM »

What I'm saying is that you can't have it both ways - the price Greece had to pay for its liberation is being under the influence of Western powers.

Ah yes, the price of freedom- slavery to the Western Powers.
As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be........

However, a reality which the Western Powers need to understand is that slaves will not always obey their masters.....
and they shouldn't be surprised when they don't.
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« Reply #109 on: December 04, 2005, 04:28:47 AM »

Quote
However, a reality which the Western Powers need to understand is that slaves will not always obey their masters.....
and they shouldn't be surprised when they don't.

I think that is something well understood by anyone with a basic grasp of modern history considering Fidel Castro, Saddaam Hussien and Osama Bin Laden were all supported by the United States at one time. 

But I still stand by what I said about Greeks, they will always accept a handout from the West and then complain about the West at the same time. 
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« Reply #110 on: December 04, 2005, 04:36:56 AM »

But I still stand by what I said about Greeks, they will always accept a handout from the West and then complain about the West at the same time.ÂÂ  

Yes, that is the way of the Romios...
And still, the West gives it's handouts to the Greeks, despite what the Greeks say about them (or refuse to say about them).
What can I say? To know us it to love us. Cheesy
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« Reply #111 on: December 04, 2005, 07:47:53 AM »

What I'm saying is that you can't have it both ways - the price Greece had to pay for its liberation is being under the influence of Western powers.  The secularizations Greece has undergone have been self-imposed.  This is also true of the Church - think ecumenism, the new calendar etc.   

You're making a stretch there.
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« Reply #112 on: December 04, 2005, 07:51:02 AM »

But I still stand by what I said about Greeks, they will always accept a handout from the West and then complain about the West at the same time.   

I've never heard the Greeks from Greece complain... it's only those of us who want to see the continuation of an Orthodox state that complain! 

Yes, that is the way of the Romios...
And still, the West gives it's handouts to the Greeks, despite what the Greeks say about them (or refuse to say about them).   

Eh, the "way of the Romios?"  Since the "Romani" include more than the modern-day Greeks...
But I see what you mean: the same has been done to the Serbs, Greeks, Romanians, etc.
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« Reply #113 on: December 04, 2005, 08:26:50 AM »

I've never heard the Greeks from Greece complain...

In the eighties, PASOK was vitriolic against the US and it's western allies, and had a huge impact on public opinion.
The popular composer Mikis Theodorakis said in 1999: ""I hate Americans and everything American. I hope that the youth will begin to hate everything American" and he was later Greece's nomination for the Nobel Peace prize.
A poll conducted of Secondary Students in Athens asking them to rank other countries from most popular to least popular had Serbia at the top, and the USA at the bottom with Turkey and Albania.
Greeks in Greece still blame the CIA for the rise of the military junta (1967-1974).
The "November 17th" Greek terrorist group murdered the CIA station chief in 1975.
Greece supported Serbia in the most recent war- forbidding the use of it's airspace and bases, so the US had to use Turkey (which just inflamed Greek sentiments even more). Greece also repeatedly violated the UN-imposed oil embargo on Serbia and the EU decision concerning the freezing of assets belonging to the Milosevic government.
The Greek government had to suppress opinion polls which showed anti-American sentiment following the September 11 attacks.
Soccer crowds refused to observe two minutes silence in memory of the 9/11 attacks...
The list goes on....
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« Reply #114 on: December 04, 2005, 08:40:19 AM »

In the eighties, PASOK was vitriolic against the US and it's western allies, and had a huge impact on public opinion.
The popular composer Mikis Theodorakis said in 1999: ""I hate Americans and everything American. I hope that the youth will begin to hate everything American" and he was later Greece's nomination for the Nobel Peace prize.
A poll conducted of Secondary Students in Athens asking them to rank other countries from most popular to least popular had Serbia at the top, and the USA at the bottom with Turkey and Albania.
Greeks in Greece still blame the CIA for the rise of the military junta (1967-1974).
The "November 17th" Greek terrorist group murdered the CIA station chief in 1975.
Greece supported Serbia in the most recent war- forbidding the use of it's airspace and bases, so the US had to use Turkey (which just inflamed Greek sentiments even more). Greece also repeatedly violated the UN-imposed oil embargo on Serbia and the EU decision concerning the freezing of assets belonging to the Milosevic government.

But the western powers that had the influence on "Greece"'s beginning didn't include the US, who at the time was in a protectionist mode... in the 1800's it was France and England from the West who were running the show, and like I've said, I've never heard a Greek complain about them (other than the Elgin Marbles thing...)
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« Reply #115 on: December 04, 2005, 08:49:54 AM »

I've never heard a Greek complain about them
I did.... last month when I was there. From my cousin's husband (who blames the English for most of the troubles in the Balkans) to a newspaper cartoon which showed Tony Blair and George Bush doing something rather unsavoury, (and not mentionable in Christian company) together.
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« Reply #116 on: December 04, 2005, 09:02:58 AM »

And don't forget, in a referendum in 1974, Greece ousted the monarchy established by the British at the Treaty of London by a 70% majority.
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« Reply #117 on: December 04, 2005, 11:07:29 AM »

A heritage to be proud of, for sure. 
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« Reply #118 on: December 04, 2005, 12:16:29 PM »

Thing is, the Austrians had shown great Anti-Greek attidute during the 1821 revolution (gave Rigas Phereos to the Turks I think)
but still no one complains about them and some greeks even consider Austria one of Greece's good friends, when Britain
has done a hell lot more for Greece and many Greek teenagers at the High School I attend dislike them.

Personally I think Britain has done more for Greece than any other country (including Russia).
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« Reply #119 on: December 04, 2005, 12:21:35 PM »

Quote
Yourself included? 


No, I'm with the Pope (Vicar of Christ on Earth).  Grin  Grin  Grin
Just kidding. Of course myself included. Everytime I go to bed I ask forgiveness in case
I am wrong and the Orthodox Church I left was truly the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

I do ackhnowladge that Photius is a Saint of the Catholic Church as well.
Once again I apologise because I have insulted him many, many times.

In fact, I have a large icon of his on my bookcase and next to it I have a holy card of
St. Josephat and next to that an icon of Pope John Paul II. Either he is extremly happy
or extremly annoyed.  Cheesy

Now that I mentioned icons, is doing something bad to an icon out of hate a sin that will not be forgiven with
confession? And is RC confession valid?
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« Reply #120 on: December 04, 2005, 12:49:28 PM »

Now that I mentioned icons, is doing something bad to an icon out of hate a sin that will not be forgiven with
confession? And is RC confession valid?

It would probably be best if you started a new thread for these questions, so that your questions can be answered without sidetrack, and so that this discussion can continue without sidetrack.
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« Reply #121 on: December 04, 2005, 02:42:05 PM »

Now that I mentioned icons, is doing something bad to an icon out of hate a sin that will not be forgiven with
confession? And is RC confession valid?

1) Any sin can be forgiven in confession.  If you were excommunicated for some reason, that can only be dealt with by the bishop.  If you did something bad to an icon out of hate when you left Orthodoxy, that might be a sign that your conversion was done in a bad spirit.  When I left Catholicism I didn't go out and torch my icon of St Theresa of Avila or spit on my Byzantine Catholic and Roman Catholic material. Instead, I treated it with respect.

2) No Roman Catholic sacrament is valid from the Orthodox Church's point of view.  Baptism can be accepted on conversion to Orthodoxy by economy but that doesn't mean it was grace-bestowing when it occurred.

I have a feeling you will come back to the Orthodox Church. We'll be quite happy for you when you do.

Anastasios
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« Reply #122 on: December 04, 2005, 03:56:06 PM »

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We'll be quite happy for you when you do.

I second that sentiment.
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« Reply #123 on: December 05, 2005, 06:20:31 AM »

A heritage to be proud of, for sure.ÂÂ  
You mean, like the heritage one should be proud of when reaping the benefits from an economy built by enslaving human beings because of their skin colour? Wink
All the kingdoms of this world, Nektarios, all of them are part of the world we turned our backs on and rejected at our Baptism.
A Christian's true home is not here.
A Christian's true Country is not here.
Our City is the Heavenly Zion.
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« Reply #124 on: December 05, 2005, 06:52:25 AM »

A Christian's true home is not here.
A Christian's true Country is not here.
Our City is the Heavenly Zion.
You and I belong to the same Country, Nektarios....
So you see, you and I belong to the same Country, Nektarios....and is where our first loyalty andÂÂ  patriotism must lie- not with the fleeting kingdoms of this world.....
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« Reply #125 on: December 05, 2005, 01:47:53 PM »

This discussion seems to have taken quite a tangent--so guys---what is the current status on the monastery and the EP?

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« Reply #126 on: December 05, 2005, 02:07:38 PM »

Oh come on, George!  You can hardly accuse me of a blind patriotism to the United States - wasn't it me who agreed with you about the immorality of dropping atomic bombs on cities?  I simply grow tired of blind anti-americanism though - the sort that just hates America because that is the trendy thing to do.  But I have no objection to reasoned disagreements with American policy. ÂÂ

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« Reply #127 on: December 05, 2005, 03:08:06 PM »

Oh come on, George!  You can hardly accuse me of a blind patriotism to the United States - wasn't it me who agreed with you about the immorality of dropping atomic bombs on cities?  I simply grow tired of blind anti-americanism though - the sort that just hates America because that is the trendy thing to do.  But I have no objection to reasoned disagreements with American policy. 

In fact, I might go out on a limb and say there aren't many on this site that are blindly patriotic to the US.  I've got a laundry list of objections - and thank God for the freedom that we have in this country (and in many courntries worldwide) to voice these objections without ramifications.

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« Reply #128 on: December 05, 2005, 04:52:35 PM »

This discussion seems to have taken quite a tangent--so guys---what is the current status on the monastery and the EP?
The representatives of Esphigmenou and the Ecumenical Patriarchate met at the Greek Foreign Ministry, and now the Deputy Foreign Minister will be visiting Esphigmenou in January. I hope it's not a bad omen that the Deputy Foreign Minister's name is Panayiotis Skandalakis ("Scandal of the All-Holy One")! Cheesy
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« Reply #129 on: December 05, 2005, 05:59:08 PM »

Thing is, the Austrians had shown great Anti-Greek attidute during the 1821 revolution (gave Rigas Phereos to the Turks I think)
but still no one complains about them and some greeks even consider Austria one of Greece's good friends, when Britain
has done a hell lot more for Greece and many Greek teenagers at the High School I attend dislike them.

Personally I think Britain has done more for Greece than any other country (including Russia).


why are you still fighting for the Greeks? When you gave up their patrimony of the Orthodox Church...
go fight for the vatican.
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« Reply #130 on: December 05, 2005, 06:02:22 PM »

Well, I am Greek and I have no trouble calling it Istanbul just like the rest of the world.
And to me, Elder Rome is the way.

Ad-hominem removed.

This only got by because my Greek isn't as good as it should be...
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« Reply #131 on: December 06, 2005, 06:31:47 AM »

let's steer this back on topic!!

(I know, I'm one of the ones who got away from it)
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« Reply #132 on: December 06, 2005, 07:11:43 AM »

let's steer this back on topic!!
Thomas & I tried, but no one's listening. Possibly it's because Esphigmenou has become such a powerful symbol for so many who have projected either their hopes and aspirations for the Orthodox Church, or who see it as an embodiment of what is wrong with the Church today. Esphigmenou is a line which two sides of the Church seem to have gathered either side of, and the thought of the monks of Esphigmenou pottering into the office of the Greek Foreign Ministry to dialogue with the Ecumenical Patriarchate is possibly disappointing to both sides. Just my theory......
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« Reply #133 on: December 06, 2005, 07:17:28 AM »

I read all this previous days the discoution that is going on concerning the esphigmeno issue and am  impressed from the statements of the both sides.I would like to pose some questions concerning this issue.As i understand esphigmenou priory stop communion with EP because concider him as a heretic.IF that is true all the other monasteries that are in full communion with EP are heretical: IF that is true i would be very sad to learn that The holy mountain is full of heretics;I always believed that the holy mountain is a place with holly fathers if  am wrong please some tell me.
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« Reply #134 on: December 06, 2005, 09:54:27 AM »

As i understand esphigmenou priory stop communion with EP because concider him as a heretic. 

That's how I understand it as well.

IF that is true all the other monasteries that are in full communion with EP are heretical:

Not quite; see, if the other monasteries are confronted with actual fact and synodal decision (remember, in Orthodoxy you need to be convicted of heresy, not assumed) that the EP is in heresy, and they don't break communion, then they are;

IF that is true i would be very sad to learn that The holy mountain is full of heretics;I always believed that the holy mountain is a place with holly fathers if  am wrong please some tell me. 

The Holy Mountain has Holy Fathers.  And it also has unholy fathers.  How the two interact is what will determine the status of the Holy Mountain as far as communion and heresy.
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