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Author Topic: LEAVE THE CHURCH???  (Read 10022 times) Average Rating: 0
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Bishop Paul Andrew
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« Reply #45 on: June 24, 2006, 04:06:46 AM »

By definition, a schism does render one of the groups in schism invalid, since it is no longer part of the Church.
There was never any official break in Communion between ROCOR and the MP- so there was never a schism there.
I hate to differ with you. if Rocor is returning back to communion with the Mp then They were in Schim, see bing in Schim is not being in schim with the Orthodox Church but being in Schim with the Hierach. it is the same way between the Hiearchs of the ROAC that are in schim with the Heiarch or both the Hiearh or ROCOR and Hiearch of the MP.Now being in Schim with the Church you are not in the Church that was started my Christ himself. One thing I will tell you is this I disagree with some of the canon laws of the Seven Concils. (when it come to saying you are not or you never were) I disagree.

Question to you. lets say that a few APOSTLES decided to leave Saint Peter because they disagree with him and decided to go on their own to preach the word of Chirst. does this still make them vaild or not vaild and are they still in the Church or have they left the Church.
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« Reply #46 on: June 24, 2006, 04:11:54 AM »

It tells you which Sees were recognised as part of the Orthodox Church when they were written. In 1054, the See of Rome schismed from the other Patriarchates- so it was no longer part of the Church. The same fate befalls any group who schisms from the Church. No one can be "Orthodox" without being "in the Church."


I read the canon it is only refering to the five orgrinal Churches. As it was said to you define the Canons that pretained to who is or is not Vaild and who is or is not Orthodox. in one post one poster said if I am not Orthodox I am not a christain
« Last Edit: June 24, 2006, 04:22:35 AM by Father Paul Andrew » Logged
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« Reply #47 on: June 24, 2006, 04:19:30 AM »

The question is pointless. The Apostles may have disagreed, but no Apostle ever broke Communion.


the question is not pointless. unless you are unable to give a stright answer. Most of the Question I has asked you side track to give the correct answer I am looking for.
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« Reply #48 on: June 24, 2006, 04:36:24 AM »

I'm completely wrong on all counts. ROAC is the true Orthodox Church and I urge you to join it as soon as possible. If you like I'll PM you the web address of a forum they run. I'm sure you'll fit right in there.
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« Reply #49 on: June 24, 2006, 04:46:22 AM »

Most of the Question I has asked you side track to give the correct answer I am looking for.
By "the correct answer I am looking for"- you obviously mean "the answer I want to hear".
Well, I just gave it to you. Go in peace.
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« Reply #50 on: June 24, 2006, 05:52:35 AM »

By "the correct answer I am looking for"- you obviously mean "the answer I want to hear".
Well, I just gave it to you. Go in peace.

Looking for or waiting to hear the correct answer. still you have not. like my Father say to me quit beating around the bush and give me the answer that I am looking  to hear. that answer you gave earlyer. I read the Canon to me it sounds like an old Abbott and Costello where they take about Base Ball - who is on first and so on if you ever since their movies
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« Reply #51 on: June 24, 2006, 05:55:56 AM »

quit beating around the bush and give me the answer that I am looking  to hear. that answer you gave earlyer.
I did.
Let me repeat:
I'm completely wrong on all counts. ROAC is the true Orthodox Church and I urge you to join it as soon as possible. If you like I'll PM you the web address of a forum they run. I'm sure you'll fit right in there.
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« Reply #52 on: June 24, 2006, 06:38:09 PM »

Like Matthew777 quoted- If I am not Orthodox then I am not a Christian. I think that would some it up to 99% of people who are being told that they are not Orthodox.because they are being told that if their church is not in communion with main stream Church they are not Orthodox. being Orthodox is not being in communion, being Orthodox is being Orthodox by faith
« Last Edit: June 24, 2006, 06:38:54 PM by Father Paul Andrew » Logged
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« Reply #53 on: June 24, 2006, 06:54:39 PM »

being Orthodox is not being in communion

You're giving Zizioulas a heart attack!!
« Last Edit: June 24, 2006, 08:33:59 PM by pensateomnia » Logged

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« Reply #54 on: June 24, 2006, 08:43:55 PM »

If you consider the alternatives, Orthodoxy is the only real option. We are the historical Church as founded by Christ and the Apostles. What we find in Western Christianity is, all too often, nothing but tomfoolery.

Peace.
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« Reply #55 on: June 24, 2006, 09:55:49 PM »

being Orthodox is not being in communion, being Orthodox is being Orthodox by faith
It is both.
"One Lord, one Faith, one baptism" (Ephesians 4:4), one Eucharist, one Body, one Blood, one Creed....
You obviously don't believe this, so as I've said to you before:
Now you say you don't like the answers I gave you. So what else can I say but 'do as you like'?
  But as long as you "do as you like", you will never be a member of the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #56 on: June 24, 2006, 10:03:16 PM »

Being Orthodox is being Orthodox in Communion, in Faith, and in Life... without all three, we're not quite there...
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« Reply #57 on: June 25, 2006, 01:33:56 AM »

What makes the One Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church not Orthodox? Isn't it in the Russian Orthodox tradition?

Peace.
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« Reply #58 on: June 25, 2006, 01:37:16 AM »

If you consider the alternatives, Orthodoxy is the only real option. We are the historical Church as founded by Christ and the Apostles. What we find in Western Christian is, all too often, nothing but tomfoolery.

Peace.

that I know
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« Reply #59 on: June 25, 2006, 07:18:52 AM »

What makes the One Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church not Orthodox? Isn't it in the Russian Orthodox tradition?

Peace.

Would you please elaborate on this question....
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« Reply #60 on: June 25, 2006, 04:01:53 PM »

Would you please elaborate on this question....

"The American Orthodox Catholic Church (in full, The Holy Eastern Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church in North America) was the first attempt by mainstream Orthodox canonical authorities at the creation of an autocephalous Orthodox church for North America. It was chartered in 1927 by Metropolitan Platon (Rozhdestvensky), primate of the Russian Metropolia and his holy synod, and its history as in any real sense part of the mainstream Orthodox Church ended in 1934. During its short existence, it was mainly led by Aftimios Ofiesh, Archbishop of Brooklyn..."
http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/American_Orthodox_Catholic_Church
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« Reply #61 on: June 25, 2006, 05:32:44 PM »

I'm afraid your question is still no clearer M77.
Why don't you just ask your question in a clear and precise manner?
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« Reply #62 on: June 25, 2006, 06:07:26 PM »

"The American Orthodox Catholic Church (in full, The Holy Eastern Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church in North America) was the first attempt by mainstream Orthodox canonical authorities at the creation of an autocephalous Orthodox church for North America. It was chartered in 1927 by Metropolitan Platon (Rozhdestvensky), primate of the Russian Metropolia and his holy synod, and its history as in any real sense part of the mainstream Orthodox Church ended in 1934. During its short existence, it was mainly led by Aftimios Ofiesh, Archbishop of Brooklyn..."
http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/American_Orthodox_Catholic_Church

This I know. Lot of people have said that it ended with Aftimios Ofiesh of Bless Memory. I know that he was married against Canon law do to that he was also a Monk. But that didn't stop the new jurisdiction from growing an continuing as bishops where added to keep it going. after Aftimios married. As to what was going on in the early part of the AOCC (The Holy Eastern Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church)  after Aftimios I do not know. Who and if the Bishops back then were in-communion with any of the Orthodox Churches, with the exception of ROCOR and the OCA former name back then (Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church) I do not know as well. Like any Orthodox Church the AOCC (The Holy Eastern Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church) had it's problems. Now at the time of Metropolitan Walter Propheta of Blessed Memory, I do know about that part and after Walter Propheta to this date.
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« Reply #63 on: June 25, 2006, 06:09:40 PM »

I'm afraid your question is still no clearer M77.
Why don't you just ask your question in a clear and precise manner?

That was not his Question, it was his answer to me
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« Reply #64 on: June 25, 2006, 06:26:02 PM »

That was not his Question, it was his answer to me
I don't think so. Let's review:
Cleveland asked:
What makes the One Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church not Orthodox? Isn't it in the Russian Orthodox tradition?

Peace.

Would you please elaborate on this question....

to which Matthew replied:
Would you please elaborate on this question....
"The American Orthodox Catholic Church (in full, The Holy Eastern Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church in North America) was the first attempt..........

So I don't think it was about you.
Please try to follow threads.
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« Reply #65 on: June 25, 2006, 06:32:54 PM »

It is both.
"One Lord, one Faith, one baptism" (Ephesians 4:4), one Eucharist, one Body, one Blood, one Creed....
You obviously don't believe this, so as I've said to you before: ÂÂ  But as long as you "do as you like", you will never be a member of the Orthodox Church.

You are starting to get me MAD How dare you, For your info. I do know these things and I say the creed every night when I do my prayers from my Prayer book, I am with out merit for Christ knows whats in my heart. You should get the ICON that shows Bishops and Priests in Hell, That Icon is always on my mind. If you have never seen it you Should get it. Plus you should think about where you might end up, it may be the wrong place
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« Reply #66 on: June 25, 2006, 06:42:20 PM »

What makes the One Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church not Orthodox? Isn't it in the Russian Orthodox tradition?

Peace.

yes it was as it was in Syrian as well. Aftimios was Syrian being under the Jurisdiction of the Russian Orthodox Church of the Metropolia in American
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« Reply #67 on: June 25, 2006, 06:52:41 PM »

You should get the ICON that shows Bishops and Priests in Hell,
What interesting "Icons" you lot venerate.....
That Icon is always on my mind.
Perhaps then it isn't me, but your strange ruminations that are starting to send you
MAD
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« Reply #68 on: June 25, 2006, 07:57:56 PM »

Psalti Boy,

I used to be non-denom: now I am Orthodox.  If you're interested in a Christian parish life - the socializing, etc., I never did find it in the two non-denom churches I went to growing up.  At least, not in a significant way.

Being from a wealthy suburb that sends the homeless on a bus to the metropolis, the non-denom churches I attended took a similar hands-off approach to parish life.  I guess this varies based on where you live, but suburban non-denom becomes too much like televangelism during the service, and there is too little opportunity to meet and greet the other parishioners.  Again, however, I am speaking from a suburban perspective.

I am not very interested in theology, so I see your conflict as a matter of church experience.  I came to an Orthodox parish by going to a Catholic university and from Christian history books, and found there a small, tight-knit group that was very welcoming.  I guess what did it for me was that people knew my name!

Anyway, I had a conflict with another Orthodox not too long ago, and we are still living in the reality of a real conflict.  It was based in the power conflict that you recognize as one of the key problems of the Church.  And it did make me despair and want to leave Orthodoxy.  But then where is the fellowship?  I would be willing to leave the Church if I didn't have any positive personal connections, but I do, so I'm in.  This guy I had a conflict with - well, God be merciful to us, and it will work out as He wills.  As for power struggles in the Church - they're there, and they're pointless.  I agree with aserb and djrak - they seem to have a handle on things.
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« Reply #69 on: June 25, 2006, 10:26:13 PM »

I re-read what Father Seraphim wrote about the American Orthodox Catholic Church ( The Holy Eastern Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church) http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/American_Orthodox_Catholic_Church. what he wrote about the Church in my mind is true. But what he wrote at the bottom, I don't understand.

"To anyone knowledgeable in Canon Law, these two sections just quoted are absurd. Not only did the Russian Bishops under Metr. Platon—whose own relationship to the Mother Church was abnormal—not only have not have any authority to set up an autocephalous Church but obviously by the logic of the 2nd Section quoted, Metr. Platon and his Bishops should have subordinated themselves to the new Head of the North American Church, Archbishop Aftimios... One can safely say that Metr. Platon (perhaps with the exception of Archbishop Aftimios) and his Bishops never had any intention of granting any such broad and unlimited authority and jurisdiction and indeed this may well have been a factor which turned Metr. Platon against the new Church soon after its very inception (ibid.).

If they were not the given the AUTHORITY to set up the American Orthodox Catholic Church. Then why did Patriarch Tikon sent word to Met Sergius at the time that a AUTONOMOUS Church was to be side up and when Sergius said it again when he was made Patriarch be for he signed the loyality oath to the Communist Goverment.

Since communiation at the timeÂÂ  were hard to get out message,which they did. Then Metropolitan Planton did have the Authority to set up a Autonomous Jurisdiction.ÂÂ  Plus when it was done all the Russian Bishop should have come under the New Metropolitan which was Aftimios Ofiesh of the New Autonomous Jurisdiction. According to Canon Law.
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« Reply #70 on: June 25, 2006, 10:37:21 PM »

I hate to differ with you. if Rocor is returning back to communion with the Mp then They were in Schim, see bing in Schim is not being in schim with the Orthodox Church but being in Schim with the Hierach. it is the same way between the Hiearchs of the ROAC that are in schim with the Heiarch or both the Hiearh or ROCOR and Hiearch of the MP.Now being in Schim with the Church you are not in the Church that was started my Christ himself. One thing I will tell you is this I disagree with some of the canon laws of the Seven Concils. (when it come to saying you are not or you never were) I disagree.

Question to you. lets say that a few APOSTLES decided to leave Saint Peter because they disagree with him and decided to go on their own to preach the word of Chirst. does this still make them vaild or not vaild and are they still in the Church or have they left the Church.



There's only one hierarch of the Orthodox Church and that's Christ. And His teaching for the Orthodox Church is that there is to be no hierarchy.

"It shall not be so among you"

Therefore, it is not possible to be in schism from a hierarch, there are none. All claims to being an hierarchical authority in the Church are schismatic from the Orthodox faith. That is why papacy is a heresy, so is "supreme authority is the synod of bishops", so is "communion with the EP is a guarantee of canonicity", and any other variations on the theme.


That said, the accusation that ROCOR is/was schismatic from the MP is a propaganda message used over the last decades to undermine ROCOR by those who had a vested interest in doing so, for one reason or another.

An analysis of the IVth All Diaspora gives a look at how ROCOR used to consider its relationship with the MP Church, to remind of the history, there's also Bishop Agathangels Statement which I'll post if you're interested:


Myrrh



review by Eugenia Richard and Paul Richard


Overview of the Sobor and its Aftermath


+ Lord Have Mercy on US ALL!

Our Holy Church √ a beacon of light and truth to the world, what will
become of You? The light has dimmed, we are cast into utter darkness, into
a web of deceipt and dark despondency. Has the light been extinguished and
replaced with a false light? Has it been placed under a bushel? Your fate
is unknown to us, your children. All the true details, negotiations and
plans are being kept secret from us, perhaps so that we should grow tired
and fall away from our Mother, and our faith, and our God. We had strength
and ammunition prior to the IV Pan-Diaspora Sobor, while we were quoting
the Holy Fathers, the Scriptures and the Holy Canons of the Orthodox
Church, forewarning our brethren in Christ to not be overcome with the
rush-to-unite tidal wave which was looming over us. We could still quote
our beloved Metropolitan Philaret, who is a beacon in this age of apostasy,
who single-handedly led the church on a narrow path resisting contemporary
apostasy, a path which earned the Russian Church Abroad the respect of the
entire world. But now, after the Sobor, our battle lies with secrecy and
wilfull distortion of the Truth in the matter of our own Church!

We know that the agenda behind the Sobor was well thought-out, planned,
making sure that program speeches, written information and press releases
were geared toward unification with Moscow. Unlike the 3rd Sobor, where
there was a system of secret ballots with sealed envelopes, allowing the
delegates to vote their consciences with peace of mind, this Sobor forced a
system of open voting, under the gaze and scrutiny of the Sobor organizers
who positioned themselves strategically in order to have full view of the
voters. All communications devices were prohibited during the meetings, as
well as any recording of notes. Every effort was made to confiscate the
original draft of the ⌠Resolution■, when it became evident that it would
not be ratified. This confiscation was performed even to the point of
searches of delegates' materials during break periods! It is reported by
the media that there were no credentialed western press representatives
reporting throughout the course of the Sobor, and only 3 Russian News
Agencies received daily releases, which were widely reported in Russia as
⌠pro-unia victory■. We have now learned that even the major documents
(particularly the Resolution) were penned in advance to Moscow's fiddle.

How is it that the ecumenical Metropolitan Amphilochius of Montenegro was
the star of the show, concelebrating at the first liturgy of the Sobor? He
revealed his close ties to Moscow after the Sobor, when he delivered the
consolation gift of the precious hand of the Holy Forerunner to the Moscow
Patriarchate, just one week ago. (Interfax reports that ROCOR Bishop
Michael Donskov was on the special flight from Montenegro to Moscow as a
member of the esteemed entourage.) Time was permitted in the Sobor schedule
to open with greetings from the leading world Orthodox ecumenists
(Catholicos of Georgia, Patriarch Maximos of Bulgaria, Exarch of the
Ecumenical Patriarch, Optina Pustin, which provided the icon of the 7
Ecumenical Councils √ and blessed it). Yet, only reluctantly was the plea
to the Sobor from the Lesna Convent and nuns in the holy land finally read
after much protest, followed by a sheepish apology on their behalf for
un-monastic conduct. Time was not permitted for the plea from South
America, or the Metropolitan Anthony Society, or for the hundreds of
letters which begged to be heard at the Sobor, which had been written over
the last several months to our First Hierarch, the Synod, the Hierarchs and
to the IV Pan-Abroad Sobor. Fr. Viktor Dobrov had to break up his address
into rigid increments of 4 minutes (after which the microphone was
unceremoniously turned off) to get the word out on the WCC and the MP.
Likewise, Subdeacon John Qualls, was denied public presentation of his
remarks and was forced to deliver them in writing to the assembled
hierarchs. Other âŒÂ opponentsâ–  of the union were rudely interrupted, and
their miserable 4 minutes were absorbed by heckling and interruption.
Observers from the 3rd Pan-Abroad Sobor note the stark contrast in the area
of freedom of expression. At the 3rd Sobor, there were no time limits. Each
delegate spoke to his heart's content; all aspects of every issue were
brought to light, in a true spirit of brotherly love and conciliarity for
the sake of the well-being of the Church and the flock. Were such crude,
obvious maneouvers deployed at the IV Pan-Abroad Sobor sanctioned as
Christian behavior?

Metropolitan Laurus recently gave an interview to Itar-Tass, (the official
state propaganda vehicle of the USSR) on the status of the unification (see
ROCOR official website), with which he says ⌠I am pleased■. But thousands
of ROCOR sheep are on the edges of their seats, particularly on the
territory of the former Soviet Union, starving for information on exactly
what is happening, what is the truth in this confused situation, wondering,
what do the Resolution and the Epistle really imply? From the many
interpretations of the intent of the Resolution, we believe that the words
âŒÂ in obedience to our Archpastor, Christâ– , âŒÂ in the appropriate time,â–  ÃƒÆ’¢Å’ upon
the foundation of the Truth of Christ■, ⌠the participation of the ROC MP in
the WCC evokes confusion.. we ask the hierarchy of the ROC MP ...to
expediently remove this temptation.■, and finally that ⌠the forthcoming
Local Council of One Russian Church will settle remaining unresolved church
problems.â–Â  (i.e. Sergianism, the uncanonical status of the MP and its
hierarchy) are assurances that the rush to unite has been soberly tempered
with prudence and piety. Yet we also know that the Resolution was voted on
paragraph by paragraph, thereby avoiding the sum of its parts √ a direct
yes or no vote on rushing into union. Regarding the ⌠Act on Canonical
Communionâ– , in an excerpt from Bishop Gabriel's interview to Pavel Korobov
of âŒÂ Commercantâ–  for âŒÂ Gazeti.Ruâ–  he responded to the question, âŒÂ Are there
problems with the Act?■, saying, ⌠You know that at the Pan-Abroad Sobor
diverse opinions were expressed on the issue of unification and possible
eucharistic intercommunion. The main problem is the membership of the
Moscow Patriarchate in the World Council of Churches. In this matter the
blade hits a rock. Some feel that we could enter communion in prayer
without Moscow first withdrawing from the WCC, but others say that we
cannot. According to the latter, Moscow must demonstrate its good will and
desire to withdraw from the WCC, thereby laying a foundation for full
intercommunion. Now much depends namely on the Moscow Patriarchate.
Everything is in its hands.. the ball is in their court.â– Yet according to
the interview given by Protopriest Viktor Potapov to the journal ⌠We in
Russia and the Abroadâ–  dated June 14, he states, âŒÂ Yes, unconditionally (the
Sobor) achieved its objective...We are not stipulating an immediate
withdrawal from the WCC as a condition for unification, although we would
wish that it would occur in time..â–Â  Also he states, much to general
bewilderment that ⌠The IV All-Diaspora Sobor was consultative in character
and did not have the right to decide anything; its delegates expressed
their views and opinions and formulated resolutions which state
unambiguously that we look toward eucharistic communion with the Church in
the native land... The issue has been decided in principle, and we have
only to wait patiently for full eucharistic communion will be finally
re-established.â–Â  (ital-trans). The question of timeframe was key in the
aforementioned interview of Metropolitan Laurus. Will we be commemorating
Alexii tomorrow, the next day, within 6 months, and on what terms? But
instead of assuaging the anxiety of the flock, the First Hierarch confirms
that ⌠the Russian Church Abroad is prepared to the best of its abilities to
cooperate in improving world opinion of contemporary Russiaâ– ! (see ROCOR
website.) Does this mean we have accepted the role of sergianism? Naturally
the evasiveness and obscurity in addressing these vital matters brings to
mind yet again the same treatment the flock had received prior to the Sobor
when thousands of letters over the fate of the church went unanswered and
unacknowledged.

The anticipated instantaneous unification (as Priest Nikolai Balashov had
assured would occur after the Nyack meeting of the Joint Commissions in
February) obviously did not occur in San Francisco, no matter how strong an
attempt was made to push it through with resolutions, epistles and the
notoriously secretive ⌠Act■, again ⌠author unknown■, which spelled out the
specifics of the unification. Our very Church history prior to 2002 and
legacy have been expunged from the official ROCOR website. The
controversial ROCOR/MP ⌠pre-Sobor information website, Let us Confess With
One Mindâ–Â  was so pro-unia slanted that it was bombarded with complaints of
bias. It brazenly responded by saying that the opposition had nothing of
value to contribute, therefore none of its materials were posted!

Retribution and silencing tactics were employed over the last four years,
forging the pro-union plan at any cost. An evident shift in the world-view
of our Church has been implemented. Metropolitan Laurus himself said ⌠fear
not the ecumenists, but the zealotsâ– . We, the spiritual sheep of
Metropolitans Anastassy, Anthony and especially Metropolitan Philaret whose
incorrupt relics lie unglorified, feel that we have been abandoned and
betrayed. The REMNANT OF CHRIST'S CHURCH which trod the narrow path ⌠not of
this worldâ–Â  have been treated like non-entities. Archbishop Alypy, when
asked about the proposed Pomestny Sobor, dejectedly announced that it will
most likely only occur when ⌠none of us are around any longer■. Sources say
that he was directely threatened with a âŒÂ monastic-style retirementâ–  if he
voted against union at the Sobor. Is this the ⌠How good it is for brethren
to dwell in unityâ–  (Psalm 132:1), applied to the âŒÂ spirit of unionâ–  at the
Sobor. We know from the very limited information leaking out after the
Sobor (this is the ultimate outrage, when delegates were supposed to
represent the laios and every sobor of the Church has been with the full
knowledge and participation of the laios), that we are being kept mostly in
the dark with innuendo, speculation and uncertaintly colouring the
aftermath of this Sobor. It is clear and evident that this particular
âŒÂ Soborâ–  was an attempt to disrupt and de-rail the traditional course and
established practice of church management and decision-making, specifically
designed to achieve the âŒÂ instantaneous unificationâ–  with the MP, NOT THE
MOTHER CHURCH, but the Stalin-instituted apparatus, devoid of canonicity
and grace, the servant of the Soviet and post-soviet state, still lingering
as an entity which has not been validated by a Supreme Church Authority,
which, were it to truly REPENT would retire its hierarchy and allow an
untarnished, new hierarchy to be elected canonically to make way for the
purification and resurrection of the church in Russia and Russia as a
whole. What was witnessed at the Sobor was not a genuine intention guided
by the Holy Spirit, for when the Holy Spirit manifested His affect on the
Sobor, it dawned on the delegates that the Resolultion placed before them
for signature was in dire need of correction, as well as the outrageous
⌠Act on Canonical Communion■. If the Sobor organizers were truly seeking
guidance from the Holy Spirit, they would have put the âŒÂ Actâ–  up for a vote,
right there and then. The outcome would have been clear and final.

In this mad delusion to rush into union with the ⌠Russian Church■, we have
sadly lost sight of our faith, our Orthodoxy, which while being Russian
secondarily, was primarily of Christ in nature. We, who have spent our
entire adult lives striving for the truth, have somehow succumbed to the
persistent brainwashing and submitted to signing endless promises of
allegiance in a dark time when we did not know the extent of the
conspiracy. Now we see √ the pro-union faction displayed its Soviet-learned
behavior at the Sobor. We know that the âŒÂ resolutionâ–  was modified to at
least include our groveling eleventh hour attempt to include some mention
at least of making an issue of the MPâ–“s ecumenical involvement. As the MPâ–“s
ecumenical involvement escalates and broadens in scope, (the MP will host
the Summit of All World Religious Leaders in the near future in Moscow), do
we honestly believe that the MP cares about our obsequious, weak ⌠demandâ–Â
(request) that they âŒÂ please remove the temptationâ–  of their ecumenical
involvements? The information we had, unfortunately from the shot-gun
Moscow press, that the unification had occurred, that division was
overcome, and all the other premature victorious reports serve to make us
realize the degree of confidence the MP had, that this was a fait accompli!
Yet, after the notorious âŒÂ Actâ–  elicited a strong reaction at the sobor, it
was passed on to the bishops in the hopes that the hierarchical sobor could
be manouevered more easily, yet we know that Bishop Agafangel (who by
virtue of residence has a clear picture of the MP), as well as Bishop
Daniel of Erie, Bishop Alyppy and Bishop Gabriel refused the entire notion
of âŒÂ instantaneous unionâ–  as was depicted in the âŒÂ Act on Canonical
Communionâ– . Indeed, Bishop Agafangel courageously revealed that there was
no such thing as a ⌠vote on approval in principle of the Act on Canonical
Communionâ–Â  as had been erroneously reported by Itar Tass, the latter
leading many of our flock into confusion, and a sense of hopelessness and
being betrayed. Yet Bishop Agafangel is outrightly accused by Father Viktor
Potapov of contributing to the spread of disinformation because of his
particularly staunch position. Bishops Daniel, Gabriel and Agafangel were
opposed to the Act, and not only did not sign it but disagreed with it in
principal. Yet our official Church sources provide the information that the
âŒÂ Actâ–  will be âŒÂ reworked by the joint commissionsâ–  - How can anything be
reworked by a small group of people who were âŒÂ appointedâ–  to merely work out
the preliminary materials which were to be either adopted or rejected by
the general sobor? How can they now hold the fate of the entire church in
their hands? And confidently, the swift-unification proponents are saying
that now this âŒÂ new Actâ–  will deserve a special ceremony, or as they call it
a new âŒÂ riteâ–  of signing, in order to legitimatize this rash unification,
despite all of the voices of reason which have spoken out against this
forced, immediate unification, citing the outstanding issues of Sergianism,
ecumenism and the broadening neo-soviet heavy hand on the world arena.

Archbishop Mark is now officially acting within the ranks of the DECR of
the MP in regulating the situation in the Sourozh diocese. Indeed, that
diocese has now been accepted by the Patriarchate of Constantinople, as
have other former MP jurisdictions √ the logic is that ⌠better with
Constantinople than with pseudo-Orthodoxy Moscow!â–Â  Bishop Evtikhy upon
boarding his flight from Ishim had assured his flock, that he was headed to
San Francisco to resist the union, but Portal-Credo Ru reports that he
stopped in Moscow for a visit reportedly with Prot. Nikolai Balashov
(dialogue commissions mastermind), after which he was overcome with a
âŒÂ pseudo mystical enlightenmentâ–  which inspired him to dash back into the
MPâ–“s lap!

The last 5 years have been characterized by bewilderment and outrage at the
manner in which the ideology of ROCOR has been persistently eroded and
distorted (see Nun Vassaâ–“s rendition of our Churchâ–“s history on the ROCOR
website, calling Metropolitan Philaret an ⌠isolationist■) On ROCOR's
website, all of the history prior to 2002 has been expunged and the
âŒÂ legacyâ–  presented there is carefully selective in its content. Has this
happened without the knowledge and blessing of its First Hierarch? Despite
the active slander campaign after Metropolitan Vitaly âŒÂ was leftâ–  (as the
Russians say) it cannot be denied that he firmly resisted even talk of
rapprochement with the MP, yet the succeeding Metropolitan has been
discovered to have received an award in 2002 and again in 2004 in Moscow
for meritorious service to Russia, particularly in the area of the
unification of the ROCOR and MP.

http://www.nagradanaroda.ru/gallery-lavr.html and
http://www.nagradanaroda.ru/laureat-blago.html

What are the faithful to make of this? The pro-union faction includes
Archbishop Mark, who had acted unilaterally in the 1990â–“s entering into
dialogue with the MP, despite being censured by the Synod for these
dialogues with the MP, as a bishop of
our church; Fr. Viktor Potapov, who was reproached by Metropolitan Philaret
for his involvements with Russia and the MP, then in 1993 wrote ⌠Truth is
betrayed by Silenceâ– , exposing the KGB essense of the MP; Fr. Peter
Perekriostov who in his church publication âŒÂ Russian Pastorâ–  condemned the
MP severely and in 1998 wrote ⌠I simply cannot imagine how our hierarchs
could sit at the same table with members of the 'Holy Synod' of the Moscow
Patriarchate.■; Fr. George Larin, who had called the MP clergy ⌠Chekists in
riassaâ–“sâ– at the press conference given by former Russian presidential
hopeful General Lebed; Fr. A. Lebedev, who had written his well-known book
âŒÂ Evil Fruitâ–  in 1994, condemning the MP. Prominent church figures, such as
Peter Budzilovich have asked the unanswered question: WHEN DID THE MP CEASE
TO BE A SOVIET APPARATUS AND BECAME THE MOTHER CHURCH? Yet now we have heard
the ardent statements from the clergy who are urging an instant unification
with the Moscow Patriarchate. This sudden change in perception
and the deviation from the traditional course of the Church are disturbing.
In attempting to understand the modus operandum, the flock unwittingly
asks, ⌠have they become ⌠of this world■, as a result of contact with the MP
behind the scenes, news of which only filters down to us in a most
alarming, distorted, bewildering form, so far from the truth?â–Â  But clearly
evident is the fact that they have taken our Church, our very faith in
Christ into their own human hands and have devised a plan to make us reject
what we believe and follow them in their ambitious alliance with the MP,
which, incidentally, since the âŒÂ fall of the Soviet Unionâ–  (Putin still
proudly retains his Communist membership card) remains the same apparatus,
with the same key players, leading the country in the new neo-soviet
political orthodoxy. One can only fear for the souls of those who have been
lured by the glitz, glare and glory of the MP into collaboration with
Moscow's ambitious world agenda, foresaking the narrow path of Our Savior
and the gospel, having chosen to ignore the 2,000 years of struggle and
martyrdoms for the purity of the faith. The big fish became tired of
swimming in a small pond. ⌠Let us swim in the ocean with the big fish and
we will inherit the earth,â–Â  they thought. But we, the faithful children of
our precious ROCOR will cherish our pond. It may be small, aging and poor,
but it is TRUE and TRUTH, as is Our Lord and Savior Who promised the flock
would be small, yet told us not to fear.

The trend of the last few years to attempt to recruit St. John Maximovich's
tacit approval for the pro-union agenda was made clear by the choice of
venue for the Sobor. Yet, from St. John's own ⌠Talk on the Dread
Judgementâ– , in his own words, which cannot be refuted or distorted, he
says: ⌠The Antichrist.... will have a personal hatred for Christ. He will
live by this hatred and will rejoice at seeing men apostatize from Christ
and the Church. There will be a mass falling away from the faith; even many
bishops will betray the faith, justifying themselves by pointing to the
splendid position of the Church. A search for compromise will be the
characteristic disposition of men. Straightforwardness of confession will
vanish. Men will cleverly justify their fall and an endearing evil will
support such a general disposition. Men will grow accustomed to apostasy
from the truth and to the sweetness of compromise and sin. Antichrist will
allow men everything, if only they âŒÂ fall down and worship him.â–  This is not
something new...they martyred Christians only because they professed:
⌠Worship God Alone and serve Him Alone.■When Archbishop John was made head
of the Palestine committee by the Synod of Bishops, he clearly spoke about
the MP: ⌠The Patriarchate is striving to subjugate and spread its influence
to all nations.. To this end, the Soviet government, an enemy of the Church
and religion.. is positioning itself in the Near East as their protector,
and is trying by all means to establish the influence of the Moscow
Patriarch, who is under their control. If there is no opposition to this
activity, it could be very successful, and places dear to the entire
Christian world might well become bases for anti-Christian influence. Aware
of the submission of the Moscow church authority to the Soviet government,
and knowing that the Moscow Patriarch is not a free servant of God and His
Church but rather a puppet of the godless authorities, those holy
communities and institutions refused to recognize his authority and have
remained in submission to the authority of the free part of the Russian
Church √ to the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church abroad,
although such recognition would have brought great advantage materially.â–Â  (
        From St. John's address âŒÂ Appeal for Help to the Holy Landâ–  Man of God
Saint
John of Shanghai & San Francisco,Nicodemos Orthodox Society).

We know that the common laity within the MP has pleaded for a Pomestny
Sobor to be held in Russia for 15 years, but to no avail. The MP structure
is not interested in accepting any blame (Nuremburg style) for the
repercussions of its collaboration with the atheist regime. In fact, the
unification of ROCOR would de facto exonerate the MP of all its misdeeds
during those treacherous years, allowing them to avoid revealing the
spiritual and physical damage caused by Sergianism, and most importantly it
would invalidate the issue of forcing the resignation (true repentance) of
all KGB hierarchs. This is not ancient history. On June 15th, Radio Freedom
reported from London on the Sourozh Diocese events, that ⌠Now, when the
church (in Russia) has gained freedom, it voluntarily became a slave of the
state. It submits to the demands of the state. It has become a state
church. This is felt very strongly here in the West. This is what prevents,
to a large degree, the return of the Russian churches in France. They don't
want to return to Moscow. We sense the same thing here... Russian Orthodox
tradition will not submit to Russia's state pressure on our churchâ– .

Many voices have spoken about the supposed gain of unification √ there
appears to be not a single benefit, only sheer loss for us and for the
common faithful in Russia. Many have stated that as an ideological mirror
of conscience, if we permit ourselves to unite with Moscow, particularly in
eucharist, then we are freeing them from the responsibility to change.
There will no longer be any voice of conscience reproaching them for having
been a tool of the soviet government and continuing to do so under the new
regime. If they truly want a resurrected, new Russia, they must not merely
pay lip service to our requests; they must rush to cleanse themselves of
Sergianism, ecumenism, and step aside to allow a pure generation,
undefiled, without blood on their hands, to take up the leadership of the
church in Russia. This is an echo of Bishop Gabriel's statement to the
press after the Hierarchical Sobor, ⌠the MP hierarchy needs to repent■as
well as his observation that they did not even show good will by returning
a single church property which they had seized from ROCOR.

When those who seek world recognition, acclaim and fame have left the
ROCOR, a small remnant will remain, but St. Archbishop John of San
Francisco foretold that the ROCOR would become very small but pure as
crystal. Some say they agree that there should be union with the MP,
however insist that the MP meet the conditions (withdrawing from the WCC,
ecumenism and renounce sergianism). But what if the MP is unable to meet
those terms? Do we unite anyway? Will we accept the newly formulated ⌠Act
of Canonical Communionâ–Â  which will strike a tone of inescapable, convincing
compromise and appease our consciences? The test has come √ do we stand
firmly and hold what we have as Metropolitan Philaret commanded in his last
testament, or will we allow ourselves to be deluded and persuaded into
taking the broad path which leads to perdition?

Had this intention to unify with Moscow precipitated in a genuine natural
fashion based on a truly renewed church structure in Russia, which was
demonstrating its integrity and true desire to be a pure Orthodox church,
not a single voice would have been raised against such a union. But the
more words and justifications are heaped onto the pile, the more suspicion
is aroused as to what is hidden beneath. Already more than one third of our
Church has fallen away because of ideological and ecclesiastical opposition
to this premature and unnecessary union, and the resistance continues. If
only our loving Archpastors would have mercy on the flock which is quickly
scattering and remove this exercise in temptation from our midst. Is it too
late to turn back now or has too much been invested in this process? Is
there any way to salvage our Russian Orthodox Church Abroad and admit that
we were hasty in rushing into this union venture? Can we write off the IV
Pan-Abroad Sobor as the greatest mistake in the history of our Church? Or
are we to sit and wait for whoever it is whose court the ball is in? AND
THEN WHAT?Huh

2/14 June, 2006
St. Nicephorus

Eugenia Richard
Paul Richard
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« Reply #71 on: June 25, 2006, 10:59:11 PM »



There's only one hierarch of the Orthodox Church and that's Christ. And His teaching for the Orthodox Church is that there is to be no hierarchy.

"It shall not be so among you"

Therefore, it is not possible to be in schism from a hierarch, there are none. All claims to being an hierarchical authority in the Church are schismatic from the Orthodox faith. That is why papacy is a heresy, so is "supreme authority is the synod of bishops", so is "communion with the EP is a guarantee of canonicity", and any other variations on the theme.


That said, the accusation that ROCOR is/was schismatic from the MP is a propaganda message used over the last decades to undermine ROCOR by those who had a vested interest in doing so, for one reason or another.

An analysis of the IVth All Diaspora gives a look at how ROCOR used to consider its relationship with the MP Church, to remind of the history, there's also Bishop Agathangels Statement which I'll post if you're interested:


Myrrh



review by Eugenia Richard and Paul Richard



You need to read the bible again where it mentions to ordaind Bishops and Priests
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« Reply #72 on: June 25, 2006, 11:12:20 PM »

Authiodionitist:

Quote
Anyway, I had a conflict with another Orthodox not too long ago, and we are still living in the reality of a real conflict.  It was based in the power conflict that you recognize as one of the key problems of the Church.  And it did make me despair and want to leave Orthodoxy.  But then where is the fellowship?  I would be willing to leave the Church if I didn't have any positive personal connections, but I do, so I'm in.  This guy I had a conflict with - well, God be merciful to us, and it will work out as He wills.  As for power struggles in the Church - they're there, and they're pointless.  I agree with aserb and djrak - they seem to have a handle on things.

Thank you.

Yet, I agree with you! Wink  It is the fellowship that keeps me in the church, regardless of power struggles, as well as the historical connection that I have to Orthodoxy via my Father's family who have bee n Serbian Orthodox for millennia. (thank you Srdjan). Sometimes I fear that converts from non-Orthodox backgrounds do not have the second anchor (history) if the first anchor fails (fellowship.)

As for the so called Father Andrew or Paul Andrew, whatever, he's hopping onto all of the blogs seeking legitimacy and debating authenticity and clogging up the blogs. Furthermore, he can't spell or refuses to use the spell check.
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« Reply #73 on: June 25, 2006, 11:29:10 PM »

What interesting "Icons" you lot venerate.....Perhaps then it isn't me, but your strange ruminations that are starting to send you
By your Mouth I can see that you have never seen that Peculiar Icon I mentioned .because you don't make since,
with a name like ozGeorgeÂÂ  you must have visited that New Jurisdiction in the land of OZ. are you their New Metropolitan and what is the name of the New Juristion. Ozgeorge Orthodox Church. Are you in communion with other Orthodox Churches in the Land of OZ and who are your Bishops
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« Reply #74 on: June 25, 2006, 11:38:04 PM »

+ Irini nem ehmot,

By your Mouth I can see that you have never seen that Peculiar Icon I mentioned .because you don't make since,
with a name like ozGeorge  you must have visited that New Jurisdiction in the land of OZ. are you their New Metropolitan and what is the name of the New Juristion. Ozgeorge Orthodox Church. Are you in communion with other Orthodox Churches in the Land of OZ and who are your Bishops

I don't see how that is even remotely necessary.

Please pray for me.
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« Reply #75 on: June 25, 2006, 11:45:32 PM »

Is it just me or does FPA`s illegible , rambling style remind anyone of "Year 2027", who was banned from this forum about a year ago?
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« Reply #76 on: June 25, 2006, 11:48:49 PM »


As for the so called Father Andrew or Paul Andrew, whatever, he's hopping onto all of the blogs seeking legitimacy and debating authenticity and clogging up the blogs. Furthermore, he can't spell or refuses to use the spell check.
I am going to ask you the Same question I asked OZgeoege Have you ever seen the ICON that shows Bishops and priets in Hell and if you haven't you should you might just end up in the wrong Please. and you say your are Orthodox
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« Reply #77 on: June 25, 2006, 11:55:34 PM »

....with a name like ozGeorgeÂÂ  you must have visited that New Jurisdiction in the land of OZ. are you their New Metropolitan and what is the name of the New Juristion. Ozgeorge Orthodox Church. Are you in communion with other Orthodox Churches in the Land of OZ and who are your Bishops

Sir, if you had looked at the information of the poster and fellow Human Being that you are heaping scorn on, you would find that he is a resident of the country of Australia, sometimes referred to in jest as "Oz".

How does such behaviour further your cause?

 Undecided

Ebor
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« Reply #78 on: June 26, 2006, 12:19:35 AM »

Is it just me or does FPA`s illegible , rambling style remind anyone of "Year 2027", who was banned from this forum about a year ago?
I came on hear as a friend. and all I  got from some of you was negative feed back.
so I give negative feed back. some of  you have said that I am not Orthodox. I think
some of you should look in the mirror. I have made two postings or three postings
 of Apologies did any one reply back no. so tell me who is Orthodox now and some of you
need to look at the Icon that Shows Bishop and Priest in Hell. if you have or haven't
you should think about it.you may end up in the wrong place. One Thing I'll say if
 any one tries to have me banded. from OrthodoxChristianity.net for my Feed Back
I will complain to the Highest Authority of the Orthodox Church, plus a lawyer

I am sorry for this Postting but I had no choice. As some of you  been very unfriendly to me
That makes me think as well if some of you are truly Orthodox.

My Christ Our True God and King have mercy on us all and All Orthodox Churches around the world
as well as the Roman Catholic Church herself
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« Reply #79 on: June 26, 2006, 12:54:15 AM »

I'm really not sure what this alledge icon is all about.  The closest thing that comes to mind is a famous icon from Zographou depicting the Church on a ship beset by attackers from all sides, some of whom are in Orthodox clerical garb.  I can't make out the small letters over the Orthodox bishop and monk on the icon because they are dark on a dark background.  Eitherway I think it is entirely irrelevant to your attemped point in the discussion.  The fact that an icon depicts clergy as having fallen (even the ladder does that in the text regarding that not all those who have recieved monastic tonsure...) does not show that our clergy (the Ecumenical Patriarchate in the case of OzGeorge and myself) are the ones fallen and that yours among those titled "holy fathers" in the Zographou icon.  So while it is commendable that you recite the creed of the fathers, the question is do you do so while in union with the ancient patriarchates and other local Orthodox Churches? 
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« Reply #80 on: June 26, 2006, 12:54:47 AM »

Authiodionitist:

Thank you.

Yet, I agree with you! WinkÂÂ  It is the fellowship that keeps me in the church, regardless of power struggles, as well as the historical connection that I have to Orthodoxy via my Father's family who have bee n Serbian Orthodox for millennial. (thank you Srdjan). Sometimes I fear that converts from non-Orthodox backgrounds do not have the second anchor (history) if the first anchor fails (fellowship.)

As for the so called Father Andrew or Paul Andrew, whatever, he's hopping onto all of the blogs seeking legitimacy and debating authenticity and clogging up the blogs. Furthermore, he can't spell or refuses to use the spell check.

Like I said about respect: If you want respect from me then you show me some respect. And yes I do make mistakes and for get to use the spell check.There are a lot others that miss spell words and for get to use the spell check. By the way I am not clogging up the Blog.

I have been asking a lot of question and make comments like any one else. And most of my comments have been Thank you
by the way the word millennia. the word is Millennial. practise what you preach
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« Reply #81 on: June 26, 2006, 01:14:39 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=7228.msg125674#msg125674 date=1151297655]
I'm really not sure what this alledge icon is all about.ÂÂ  The closest thing that comes to mind is a famous icon from Zographou depicting the Church on a ship beset by attackers from all sides, some of whom are in Orthodox clerical garb.ÂÂ  I can't make out the small letters over the Orthodox bishop and monk on the icon because they are dark on a dark background.ÂÂ  Eitherway I think it is entirely irrelevant to your attemped point in the discussion.ÂÂ  The fact that an icon depicts clergy as having fallen (even the ladder does that in the text regarding that not all those who have recieved monastic tonsure...) does not show that our clergy (the Ecumenical Patriarchate in the case of OzGeorge and myself) are the ones fallen and that yours among those titled "holy fathers" in the Zographou icon.ÂÂ  So while it is commendable that you recite the creed of the fathers, the question is do you do so while in union with the ancient patriarchates and other local Orthodox Churches?ÂÂ  
[/quote]
 

 I can't put up a lot of Icon in my room as it is my Fathers home. I have three Icon one of the Theoktokos with the Christ child and one Icon of Christ himself sitting on the throne and one of Saint Nicholus. when I do my Prays I also pray for all the Patriarcts all the Bishop all the Priest dead and a live and all Orthodox Christian a live and the Orthodox christians who have reposed in the Lord
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« Reply #82 on: June 26, 2006, 01:33:53 AM »

Okay, FPA: When Matthew777 asked what makes the "One Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church" not Orthodox, my request for clarification was based on the fact that he used a general description that fits The Eastern Orthodox Church to describe a specific Church which is/was not in communion with the other Eastern Orthodox Patriarchates and Autocephalous churches.  That's where my request, and ozgeorge's further request come from.

I don't know why people have to gang up on FPA for his grammar and spelling; there are native english-speakers who don't write well, and we all know that many here don't have english as a first langauge.  At least I can understand what he's trying to say, so lighten up!

I would like to hear where this purported icon of priests and bishops in hell comes from, though; I know that there are many references to how easy it will be for clergy to find themselves in Hades thanks to their not living up to the standards that Christ has set.  BUt I've never seen an icon (other than something like the Ladder or the Ship of Orthodoxy) that make this specific depiction.  And if there was one, I don't know if I would use the word Icon to describe it (in the technical sense) since the icon wouldn't be an aid to worship, but rather only a didactic and penitential tool.
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« Reply #83 on: June 26, 2006, 01:39:32 AM »

One Thing I'll say if
 any one tries to have me banded. from OrthodoxChristianity.net for my Feed Back
I will complain to the Highest Authority of the Orthodox Church, plus a lawyer

cmon man, is this really necessary?  why repay a lack of charity with more un-charitable acts?  and a threat of this magnitude is fairly serious stuff.  if people are going to be nasty to you, then my suggestion is maybe to find a place where they won't... the Prayer Forum is a great place to go and encounter the best of what each of us hopes for; in there one only encounters requests of need, and prayers of love.  Once you get into the sections where debate occurs, then you're bound to find uncharitable people and actions: they'll either attack your positions (the foundation of debate and learning - which is totally necessary), or your person (ad-hominems and the like - which are completely un-necessary), your background or your jurisdiction.  We can do what we can to model proper behavior, and to enforce the rules of the board and whatnot, but at the end of the day if they don't want to change to be more charitable, then they won't change.  And in that case, you should put distance between yourself and them, lest you allow yourself to be tempted into the same (or worse) sin.
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« Reply #84 on: June 26, 2006, 02:12:20 AM »

I'm afraid your question is still no clearer M77.
Why don't you just ask your question in a clear and precise manner?

Isn't Father Paul Andrew a priest at this church that is now considered schismatic, even though it was originally Russian Orthodox?

Peace.
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« Reply #85 on: June 26, 2006, 02:43:15 AM »

Isn't Father Paul Andrew a priest at this church that is now considered schismatic, even though it was originally Russian Orthodox?
Matthew, you belong to a Church which is also in schism from the Eastern Orthodox Church, do you not? What does it matter what the origins of your Church were, whether from the Apostle Thomas or not? It is still cut off from Communion with the Eastern Orthodox Churches. So what does it matter what the origins of Mr. Hood's church are? It is still in schism.
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« Reply #86 on: June 26, 2006, 03:02:59 AM »

Matthew, you belong to a Church which is also in schism from the Eastern Orthodox Church, do you not? What does it matter what the origins of your Church were, whether from the Apostle Thomas or not? It is still cut off from Communion with the Eastern Orthodox Churches. So what does it matter what the origins of Mr. Hood's church are? It is still in schism.

It sounds to me like Matthew is simply trying to establish the relationship of "Mr Hood's" Church to the Eastern Orthodox Chuch, rather than in relation the Orthodox Church in an absolute sense. As such, the relationship of his Church to your Church is not really relevant.

In any event, Matthew has made clear (throughout various threads of this forum) his heretical position that OO's, EO's and RC's are pretty much all "Apostolic" and hence more or less One Church with Grace-filled sacraments. The word 'schismatic' isn't really a word that properly exists with any real meaning within the framework of his messed up ecclesiology, so I don't understand why he is even employing it. If it bore any true meaning to him, "Mr Hood" would be considered schismatic whether Russian Orthodox or Russian Orthodox pretender.
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« Reply #87 on: June 26, 2006, 03:28:01 AM »

Matthew, you belong to a Church which is also in schism from the Eastern Orthodox Church, do you not?

The Indian Orthodox Church has existed from the beginning of the Christian faith. If one could provide any actual evidence that it has departed from the original faith as taught by Saint Thomas, then perhaps the distinction of "schismatic" would be justified. Otherwise, it's just a bunch of political and cultural b.s. that I don't have time for.ÂÂ  

Peace.
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« Reply #88 on: June 26, 2006, 03:32:57 AM »

Matthew,

The ecclesiology ozgeorge holds that deems us schismatic from his perspective, is the same ecclesiology that we hold (that consequently deems him schismatic from our perspective). It is not "political and cultural b.s.", it is Orthodox ecclesiology that represents "the original faith" that you are ironically attempting to use as a criterion for genuine Orthodoxy. Thus, in actual fact, by boiling such fundamental Ecclesiological matters down to "political and cultural b.s." you are departing from that "original faith" which has always identified Ecclesiological Unity with Eucharistic Communion.

Quote
I don't have time for. 


You don't have time for the truth encompassed by Orthodox Tradition. I see.
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« Reply #89 on: June 26, 2006, 03:35:41 AM »

If one could provide any actual evidence that its departed from the original faith as taught by Saint Thomas, then perhaps the distinction of "schismatic" would be justified.
Language is a commonly agreed on method of communication. Schismatic means "cut off", "torn"; from the Greek "skismeno". The Malankara Church is cut off (schismed) from the Eastern Orthodox Churches as evidenced by the fact that no Malankara Christian can canonically receive Communion in an Eastern Orthodox Church.  You are not in Communion with the Eastern Orthodox Church- whether you like it or not, so you are in schism from them- whether you like it or not.
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